# Salts + Buffering



## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi Everyone,

Tank Size: 90 US Gallons
Current PH: 7.5

Talking to other African cichlid keepers I am hearing 2 things.

1. Salts
2. Buffering with coral / other etc.

So here are my questions.

1. Should I be adding salts regularly? (If yes - I assume I will have to remove the bristle nose pleco's)
2. Buffering strategies? Any recommendations? Strategies from bringing the PH up safely.

I Appreciate the future responses.


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## KGilly20 (Oct 10, 2011)

Unless you plan on keeping wild caught fish, most farm raised fish are breed in 7.5-8.2 PH water. You could always add baking soda to raise the PH but then you have to monitor it with every WC and keep it stable (alot of unwanted work). Coral does raise the PH level (so i hear) but i can't imagine that is to stable over time either. They do sell "African cichlid substrate" which has some of the necessary trace elements found in their natural habitat. As for African rift lake salt, I would suggest you do add it to the tank as directions state if you want your new fish to thrive. As for the Bristle nose, (if you do proceed with adding salt and raising PH) he should do fine with the assumption that you are gonna take caution and only raise the PH .2 at a time, until desired level is reached.

Remember one opinion is not always right. See what other people say to your questions and see what they can come up with... Hope i could help


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Agreed!~ The power of the forum like this - is a lot of opinions.

The jist of what you are saying is:

- Buffering with coral or baking soda leads to unstable conditions and it challenging?

- Salt is recommended

Thank you.

The reason I have *not* asked this before was for this vary reason - that a stable PH is more pressing than a high PH - that Africans can adapt well.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

pH=7.5 is not terrible. If you stay there, your fish will probably be fine. I would not add salts.

I have crushed coral in my filters as part of the media. If anything is going to buffer and possibly raise your pH a decimal place or so, it would be that.

What is your GH?


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Good question GH - I cannot find my testing kit at this time and I need to re-purchase one.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

All opinions appreciated.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Its not nessesary to raise the PH, though I have found with my mbuna that buffering with bi-carb has been stable and they do present with a lot better coloration. Trick is to add enough bi-carb to raise the KH to what is needed, not to just raise ph.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

I heard it is really challenging to use the baking soda method - if this fluxuactes a little would this be dangerous to the fish - I am thinking yes.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Question is - salt: will it add value?


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

DJRansome said:


> pH=7.5 is not terrible. If you stay there, your fish will probably be fine. I would not add salts.
> 
> I have crushed coral in my filters as part of the media. If anything is going to buffer and possibly raise your pH a decimal place or so, it would be that.
> 
> What is your GH?


Totally agree. A stable pH is MUCH better than a pH that has the possibility of fluctuating or crashing. I would leave it at 7.5 but that is just me.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

tim_s said:


> Question is - salt: will it add value?


What kind of salt? A major ingredients in most of the cichlid salt mixes is basically the same thing as baking soda.

NaCl? Not unless your fish have ich or certain other diseases. I view NaCl as a medication.

You can't know what, if anything to add unless you know what your water already has in it. Thus the need for GH and KH test results.

Take a look at the water chemistry article in the Library.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

That is true - i agree, there is information missing.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I think baking soda is just as easy to use and just as stable as cichlid salt. But first...do you need either?


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

tim_s said:


> I heard it is really challenging to use the baking soda method - if this fluxuactes a little would this be dangerous to the fish - I am thinking yes.


Thing is it doesn't flucuate if done right for the right fish. It will maintain a PH of 8.2.

Thing people get wrong is they think ok the ph is 8.2, so i will stop now. Thats is Wrong.. totally. The PH will not get above 8.2 unless you are dumping massive amounts in at once. I add say 5 teaspoons to my water for my 60 galon tank. But this amount is totally dependant on your waters KH level. You want to add enough to get you KH to the correct level for your type of fish. I like to keep my KH at about 12-20, so I add enough to do that, my PH is steady as a rock at 8.2 always, its what bi-carb does, or baking soda as you call it over there.

NOW, if you stop adding because your ph reached 8.2 (which will happen early on) then chances are your KH is going to be too low and your ph will start dropping. Please note, only look at KH, not GH .. baking soda or bi-carb will ONLY raise your KH, not GH.

Another thing to realise is your GH may have to be increased if it is particularily low. I do not play with mine as I like the GH of the water out of my tap.

So, in summary, yes your PH can flucuate if using baking soda or any other sot of buffer for that matter, but only if your KH is not correct. It is a buffer, and if done right will buffer your tank to a steady 8.2 PH, it will not go higher only lower if not done correctly.


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

Both are really simple to do. Find a ratio that works with your tap water and then when you replace water, use the appropriate dose.

Either one can be added by just mixing it up in a jar of tank water and then pour it in.

Baking soda actually raises the total alkalinity at first and as bicarbonates break down into carbonates, it then raises the pH. It is a safe and fairly gradual way to raise/stabilize pH.

But, as stated, tank bred fish probably aren't that sensitive if it is still rather alkaline.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Well ... It is not 8.0 so my intent is to know whether it could be better.


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

8 is a great pH for africans.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

tim_s said:


> Well ... It is not 8.0 so my intent is to know whether it could be better.


What fish are we talking about ? Majority of African Cichlids do well in a PH of 8.2, 8.0 is perfect if that is what you got out of the tap, but like you said, your PH is 7.5. Now 7.5 is ok too for the majority if it stays stable at 7.5.

Why is 8.2 picked so often ? because calcium carbonate raise to this PH and then will saturate. This means adding more calcium carbonate will not raise PH any more and will instead buffer that water keeping it at 8.2 ph for longer.

So yes if your ph of 7.5 is maintaining for you and is stable, just leave it alone, it should be fine for africans at that level. If however it fluctuates at all, I would suggest slowly raising to 8.2 and buffering the ph at that level so it will stay completely stable.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

No no - mine is coming out of the tap at 7.5, I have purchased off 3 local breeders so far. 2 informed me I should be adding 1 tbsp per 10 gallons.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Yes, I was aware you had 7.5 ph. They are correct and wrong at the same time. Yes that is a common amount to use, no it is not the only amount to use.

When adding salts or any buffer like baking soda, you need to moniter the KH level so buy a KH test kit. Add a teaspoon at a time disolved in water every hour monitoring your KH level at the end of each hour. If you KH is about 12-20 then stop and remember what it took to get it to that level. That is what you need to buffer you total volume of tank. If you then do a 50% water change add half that amount and a little more (maybe one teaspoon more) then monitor you KH again after the water change and buffer added, then if it is too low add small amounts again each hour testing at the end of the hour like said above.

Main point of my post: If it is stable at 7.5ph (normally at this ph it will not be totally stable) leave it alone. If it is fluctuating by more then say 0.3 then you should concider buffering.

EDIT: Oh your pleco will be fine at 8.2 buffered PH btw, mine are not just surviving they are thriving.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

I do not think it is 100% stable due to the air bubblers will drop the PH only out of tap is tank 7.5


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Have you been monitoring you tank PH ? To be sure if its stable or not ?

If it is moving thou I would buffer to 8.2 ph.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

It changes yes - I use to process water in a separate container and run air bubblers to reach the settling point. I want to buffer the water but I am trying to determine the method.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

I think the answer lays with me properly testing my water - I literally lost the kit. I haven't tested my water for some time as I haven't encountered any fish loss.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

I would use the method I said above if you are using any buffer. I will state it again for clarity.

*NOTE:* Below methods are for buffering for African Cichlids of Mbuna Variety, you should check your particular fish for there PH and KH requirements first. This method will result in a PH of 8.2 and a KH of 12-20. The KH can be lowered to 4-12 and the PH will stay at 8.2 still fairly stable for other fish who like the lower KH.

*Buffering the whole tank from scratch:*

1) Mix buffer in water from tank in a small container one teaspoon at a time before adding.
2) Add buffer from the container slowly into your filter outlet stream so it disperses quickly.
3) wait one hour before adding any more buffer or checking levels.
4) Check the level of KH in your tank.
5) if KH above 12, all is good and stop here. If not repeat with another teaspoon.
6) Remember how many teaspoons it took to buffer your tank.

*Buffering replacement water:*

1a) mix required buffer* in a small container with tank water. Add a little bit at a time to the stream of water entering the tank if using a hose. (should take the whole tank fill to empty your buffer container if you spaced it out right)
1b) OR if using buckets, Add buffer or percentage of it to bucket/s of water used for changes.
2) Check KH level after one hour and make sure you are above 12, and if your KH gets to be near 20 adjust the extra bit you add each water change down a bit. higher KH is not a big problem, just keep it between 12 and 20 and all will be good.
3) If KH is not high enough follow the "Buffering the whole tank from scratch" method to correct it up until its ok.
4) (remember the amount you needed all up for next water change)

* required buffer would be a percentage of total needed in buffering the whole tank (i.e. 50% water change add 50% of what it took plus a little bit more to aco**** for losses in the water still in the tank)

Hope that all helps.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Helps a lot thank you - will get a new testing kit.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

tim_s said:


> Helps a lot thank you - will get a new testing kit.


Please read the note above i added, you need to check the KH requirements of your fish, most ofricans thou do not mind the higher KH. Your pleco also will not mind the higher KH.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

tim_s said:


> I think the answer lays with me properly testing my water - I literally lost the kit. I haven't tested my water for some time as I haven't encountered any fish loss.


If you are not going to be testing all your parameters(kH/gH) and how they effect your overall pH then I would not mess with your water chemistry. 7.5 stable is a million times better than a fluctuating pH and possibility of a crash. That will really stress your fish and possibly kill them especially if it tanks.

If you were raising SPS corals in a reef tank then messing with chemistry is ideal to get the right amount of minerals and trace elements for them to grow and flourish. Doing so in a freshwater tank when it is not absolutely necessary can have consequences and the cons out weigh the pros you would receive by trying to raise it from 7.5 to 8.2.

Here is a good little article and chart to help you understand a bit better.

http://www.chelonia.org/articles/waterchemistry.htm

Notice the article mentions african rift lake cichlids. It talks about the fish that are wild. Most fish sold in LFS and chain stores have been bred for generations and generations in conditions that vary from 7.2 - 8.0 some a bit higher.

I have known many people and myself included in the past that have caused major issues messing around with water chemistry. If you are gonna do it make sure to get a good test kit and read up on what is really happening when adding backing soda and salts. If you truly understand and do tests on a regular basis then go for it.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Well said razor, the common saying a little knowledge is worse then no knowledge at all can sort of apply here.

If you do not understand the buffering process and what it does for you, the slight fluctuations in ph you have now may be better. Make sure you understand why you are doing anything in an aqarurium.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Nodalizer said:


> Well said razor, the common saying a little knowledge is worse then no knowledge at all can sort of apply here.
> 
> If you do not understand the buffering process and what it does for you, the slight fluctuations in ph you have now may be better. Make sure you understand why you are doing anything in an aqarurium.


This is true. If you know what you are doing because you have studied the subject and understand it then that is one thing. To do it off the cuff so to speak and just guessing is a huge mistake. If you truly understand it then you will know why it is going up and down and you will be able to diagnose and dissect the problem further and make changes accordingly.

I use crushed coral and seashells on top of very fine marine sand for sifting. This helps me keep it stable. Stability is the key. My tap water is around 7.2 and I hope no issues with coloring in my malawi's and certainly no trouble with them spawning(see my other threads because this has been driving me crazy).


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi Everyone,

Great information and I appreciate the time and effort people have put into discussing this matter. I have actually not suffered any fish loss as of yet but I am not confused to the matter it couldn't be better.

In my line of work, which is information technology the same logic applies to education - people who know nothing at all about computers are far less damaging to the systems than the people who know how to reach control panels etc.

When I researched whether African Cichlids where even in my realms of possibilities, at that time I came to the conclusion a stable PH is far more important than trying to reach the optimal PH and doing it incorrectly!

I am trying to find out what can be done to improve the situation as I am quite aware African Cichlids come from a very different water type.

It dawned on me - I have yet to see any African Cichlid keepers without crushed coral substrate, not to say people are not doing this but it does indicate I am not following common practices.

When researching on-line - there is creditable information to support any conclusion. This is both unhelpful but helpful in terms of knowing, what I need to know.

Where-as I cannot ask questions to a standard cichlid site I can, however, ask a forum - whoses members are passionate cichlid keepers 

I am hearing some common themes here - what our the water measurements - I am not going to lie here but for the past week I have not been able to find the equipment - fish storage boxes / Christmas boxes have been shifting around a lot.

I am going to my fish store today - picking up water perimeter test kit and I will provide this information to figure out - how I should proceed.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Let us know what you find.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Update:

So I went to buy the kit and the person at one of our largest fish stores Big Al's informed me I am probably wasting my time testing the waters of Ottawa Ontario unless I have any reason to believe someone in the tank is altering the chemistry of the water.

I was informed that she has not heard of anyone buffering their water.

I asked what was within their Cichlid show room and she pointed me to bag of "African Rift Lake" substrate. Apparently 2 years ago they placed a couple of 20lb bags within the large 120 and a 1 and half in the smaller.

She also mentioned that they do not raise the PH of the water because most customers do not raise the PH of the water. Other than the 2 year old "African Rift Lake" mix - it is just water.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*tim_s*
If you are getting your water from the limestone aquafers of Ontario then your pH is actually 7.6 and your water is liquid rock... Not only is there no need to buffer your water (not even for wild caught cichlids) but buffering your water makes water changes a pain and you will do them less often... So in a way, bufferi g your water will actually be "bad" for your fish! :lol:


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Outside of my comfort zone with the "waters of Ottawa Ontario", been to canada but no idea what the chemistry would be. It tasted wet. 

When your topic is all sorted I would be interested in knowing about what makes this water special, the wife might get a kick out of it being canadian herself.

But on topic I would do what the fish shop says, sounds like hes got a good idea about the water chem in your area. On the substrate thing, it is probally like what we get here now more and more, people selling aged substrate. I am not sure how benifitial it is for a new tank, but long as there is no deseases, it couldn't hurt.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Nodalizer said:


> When your topic is all sorted I would be interested in knowing about what makes this water special,


Limestone aquifers... I put that in my reply.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

I agree - I think from the sounds of it that buffering is not required but I know a good amount of people who love to throw in 1 tbsp per 10 gallons - I am happy to do this but the main drive from these individuals is breeding.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*tim_s*
WHen i lived there i had no problem breeding rift lake cichlids of all kinds including wc and f1 cichlids. I never messed with the pH, gh or kh for any of my rift tanks


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## Dawn78 (Nov 11, 2011)

I've been reading all of the posts on this and I would have to say water chemistry is all quite confusing to me :-? . I too have been wondering about how to safely raise the ph in my tank. I recently purchased a liquid ph increaser from the lfs because my ph in my tank is around 7.2 from using r/o water. I added it like i was supposed to but all it did was make my water cloudy without raising the ph at all. I started using the r/o water because my last tank was destroyed from using tap water. No matter how hard I tried I just could not keep the lime and calcium deposits off of everything and I didnt want this happening to my new tank. So the question is should I even worry about raising the ph in my tank considering that the fish I have came from my lfs who uses the same r/o water in all of their fresh water tanks?
I've been doing research online and one site said that adding sea shells to the tank will slowely raise the ph because they will disolve over time. I have tons of small sea shells that i could place around the tank but not sure if this is the right path to go down concidering water changes would make the ph fluctuate.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Sea shells won't do much, there just decoration in a tank is all. Anyone who tells you they will raise ph hasn't heard the full story themselves.

The ph up or whatever your using is not really for beginners at any rate, it will prob say somewhere on the bottle that your hardness should be raised first or you could get high ph spikes. You need to ask youself a question.. are your fish happy ? If they are, leave them be .. don't go by ph on websites and if you are not sure leave it alone. Ph management is really something you need to be experienced to do IMO, you can more harm then good if you just buy a bottle and follow the directions without knowing what else you need to add for that bottle to do its job properly.

*NOTE:* The cloudiness could be bacteria problems due to adding the ph liquid, they could have died and caused it to go cloudy or bloomed, depending on the ingredients in that bottle. I would keep a strict eye on your checmicals for a while (each day) to make sure you didn't do damge to your bio in the tank.

What fish are you talking about anyway?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

*Dawn78*,

Check out the Practical Water Chemistry article in the forum library. It's a simple summary of pH, KH, and GH. It should answer a lot of your questions. There are cheap alternatives to the bottled products when you need to alter water chemistry. The article explains it all.

Also, test your source water for pH, KH, and GH. You can find the API liquid test kits locallly. Every aquarist should know the KH of their source water because that's what stabilizes pH. If KH is low, you could subject your fish to wide pH swings or a pH crash (pH drops low very suddenly) GH is pretty optional IMHO, but not a bad idea to know this value also.

Consider the needs of the species you're keeping. Most do well within a range of pH values. Some prefer a very low pH. So, there's really no one size fits all approach.

So, which species are you keeping?


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Heh, I must be getting old, the word cheap alternatives peeked my interest hehe

Looks like a good artical, gonna have a read myself.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

~ Shssh! More advice - *head spinning* I think the real answer here is for me to get a kit.

I see 2 options:

1. Marine
2. Fresh water

Key missing elements.

Marine - does not come with an ammonia tester
Fresh Water - does not come with a KH GH test

Either way the cost is virtually the same.

I am leaning more towards freshwater + KH / GH kit.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I am leaning more towards freshwater + KH / GH kit.


That's correct. Don't get the saltwater kit. Bottles are the same, but color cards are not. Some kits can actually be used for either, but just get the freshwater.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Done deal - I will post my results tonight and in a week show a week worth of results.


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

I'm not in Ottawa, but 4 hours down the 401 from you. I don't buffer the water here in Oshawa, and I have 2 mbamba labs holding... All I add is prime at water changes. My PH is around 7.8 or so, not tested KH/GH ...


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Well you certainly can't complain with 7.8 bufered ph out of the tap heh


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Nodalizer said:


> Well you certainly can't complain with 7.8 bufered ph out of the tap heh


I wish I had 7.8. Mine is low 7.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

yes, mine is 7.2 myself.


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

Oops one lab holding.. other released! I actually saw one of the fry... though likely for the last time..


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi,

So I tested my tank and it is not looking good right now:

PH_low: 6.0
Ammonia: 1 ppm
Nitrite: 0.50 ppm
Nitrate: 80 pm,
GH: 71.6
KH: 17.9

The KH seemed odd the instructions where to add the drops until the liquid changes from blue to yellow (it was never blue)

Sounds like I should raise the PH to 7.5 for now not 8.0 because of the ammonia and do a 25% water change get the ammonia down.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> The KH seemed odd the instructions where to add the drops until the liquid changes from blue to yellow (it was never blue)


Your KH is 0. That's why pH is low. At very low pH nitrifying bacteria go 'dormant' for lack of a better term. The good news is that the ammonia at a very low pH is 'bound' and not toxic. If you raise pH to much too quickly, much of the ammonia will become toxic. You need to make very gradual changes while watching the fish and levels of ammonia and nitrite. If your source water contains buffers (test it for KH), then use it as is to do small water changes and don't add more buffers.

Your parameters seem to imply that you've not done many water changes lately, but have just been topping off for evaporation.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

if it was never blue, then you kh is likely zero or close to it.

I wouldn't think about big ph changes this minute. You need to raise that ph to about 6.5-6.8 this will let nitrifing bacteria grow again.
*
What I would be doing is:*

1) Add prime to your tank, do a double dose.

2) Add an airstone and make sure you have your filter outputs hammering the surface of your water.

3) Add 2 teaspoons of baking soda disolved in tank water first.

4) Wait about 3-5 hours.

5) then do your water change.

*Explain my reasons:*

1) prime will make the nitrite and ammonia safe.

2) Oxygen being low in a tank can cause the PH to crash, adding the airstone and extra surface agitation will increase oxygen and stablise ph faster. Also will give the fishes a lot of relief due to the chemical imbalance atm.

3) Baking soda in a small amount like this will stablise and raise your ph slightly and increase your KH incase that figure you gave is wrong, which i think it is (raising KH will NOT hurt your fish if your figure is correct). This will let your nitrite converting bacteria start to regrow (the low ph will have killed some or all of it) but keeping it low enough so the ammonia is not too toxic for the fish. the low ph is what is saving your fish from major problems due to ammonia.

4) Give your tank 4-5 hours to let the bacteria regrow a bit before changing water and risking the ammonia shock.

5) Obviously change water when all of this is done, but if you tap water is not above 7.0 ph .. then you need to add another 2-3 teaspoon of baking soda to keep the ph stable and rising slowly.

Ok, so all of the above are immediate steps to get your tank heading back in the right direction without killing your fish. But these are not to fix your buffering issues, just a temporary fix so your fish stay alive.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Sorry Tim, I didn't mean to post over the top of you.. took a while to write is all


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*tim_s*

are you running your water through a water softener?

If your tap water has similar readings for GH and KH with no water softener then you are on the side of Ottawa that gets that lovely soft water that I was jealous over as it's liquid gold for apistogramma and the like.

If you want to stick to Rift Lake cichlids, you better follow Tim's advice to the letter. :thumb:


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi Everyone,

First off - thank you everyone for your help:

Here is my tap readings:

KH 53.7 ppm
GH 53.7 ppm

Both took 3 drops to change to the appropriate colour.

Please advise the next recommended step at this time?


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Test your tap water ph also.

And I would still do the same thing i suggested above myself. Worry about your tap water and what it means for your cichlids when your tank is stable.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I just go by drops and not do the 'ppm' conversion. it's simpler. So, a KH of 3 is low. No room for error. Mine is 5 and I add some baking soda to bring it to 8 or so. Gives me room for when the water change might get skipped. I'd still not over react to this, but instead do the small water changes (try 25% or so to start) and slowly add some buffers back that way. It's very easy to over boost buffers by adding the baking soda now. I'd ignore GH for now, as it doesn't have any effect on pH and the toxicity of the ammonia. Get the KH up a bit via water changes and pH should rise with it so the bacteria get going again. Keep checking KH, pH, ammonia and nitrite of the tank during this process. Don't worry about nitrates right now, as it's not your biggest concern.

If your water is naturally soft, I agree, that's a wonderful thing for you. It's a lot easier to harden water than soften it.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi,

So I noticed something - wife has been adding shrimps to the African tank like the piranha tank. Weird but I guess she is trying to help - they where not eating it and just pulling them into rock caves.

Might explain why last week I measured zero ammonia and this week I am.

OK! I will do a 25% water change now to get this back up.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Anyways has been an interested - many unexpected things happen. The house had a mini flood from the water change. Will keep everyone posted on the tank measurements end of tomorrow.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Goal:

To raise the PH to the requirements of the fish

Problem # 1:

Due to neglect on my part and not monitoring the water parameters the PH has dropped so low I have stopped the cycle, which as an out-come produced higher ammonia readings making it not safe to raise the tanks PH.

Possible Resolution:

Do daily 25% water changes using the waters out-of-tap conditions to slightly / safely bring up the PH. Record daily and provide results to determine the next step.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi Everyone,

It's a little early to see change and due to the house flooding during the water change I only managed a 12% water change.

RESULTS:

KH - 1 drop 
Ammonia - 0.50 ppm
PH low - 6.0
Nitrite - 0.25 ppm

Not much change but an improvement on the Ammonia.

Will do a full 25% tonight but the KH / PH has not changed as of yet! - I have a - lot - of air being pumped into the tank through bubblers maybe 5 times as much as needed and I do know this can result in a dropped PH but as mentioned I am not focusing on PH but KH.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I think you're doing this correctly. The fish aren't currently in danger, so there's no need to rush big changes.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

I agree - The energy during feeding was great!

The fish are active - The colours look fantastic - breathing looks moderately normal.

Nothing is telling me to make urgent changes.

0 fish loss.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

tim_s said:


> I have a - lot - of air being pumped into the tank through bubblers maybe 5 times as much as needed and I do know this can result in a dropped PH


Extra Oxygen in the tank will have the effect of RAISING PH not lowering it. Just so you know for future, but the effect is minimal when talking about raising PH, its more a good addition to keep PH steady. Low Oxygen level on the other hand will cause a ph crash quite quickly in unbuffered water.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

There's a 3 way relationship between CO2 <-> pH <-> and KH. Oxygen levels may have an indirect affect on pH if they affect CO2 levels. See the CO2 Chart.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

This is good to know - thank you for the correction.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi Everyone,

Latest test results:

PH Low: 6.4
Ammonia: 0.25 ppm
KH: 1 drop
Nitrite: 0 ppm

I have a question with KH, the instructions say in 1 area:

"... until the water turns from blue to yellow. If you have challenges discerning the color - hold against a white background"

This would indicate the possibility of a slight tone of yellow would apply, however,

"Test is completed when the water turns to a bright yellow"

Facts about the test:

1. My water does not start off blue but does indeed tint yellow immediately as shown when placed against a white background.

2. When playing around my definition of "bright" such as the yellow label on the box is not reached until 3 drops.

I can take a picture against a white background, however, the above information maybe enough - which in your opinion is correct?


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Another thought that runs through my mind - I agree that making water changes daily will raise my PH but my concern is that the ammonia will sit at 0 ppm. I know this is not an actual measurement but a measurement based off the chemical test but is the none measurable amount enough to truly start a colony - will I create a limited colony?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

If the test sample never turns blue, KH is very low.

You want a ammonia to test 0. Fish excrete ammonia, quite a bit. So, if ammonia measures low or 0, then there are bacteria converting it. That's good news. The colony will build large enough to handle the ammonia from the fish load. Not sure if that answers your question.

You could try a larger water change now.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Your nitrite being zero on your recent test indicates your doing fine, ammonia at zero is what you want.

Ammonia reading when cycling is really for fishless cycling. Your going ok.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Thank you - this does indeed answer my question. I will try a 50% water change.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi,

I originally separated the question in a separate ticket but I wanted to insure as the recommendation will change the water parameters of the tank in a positive manner.

I have a 4" Salousi who appears to be bloated. The fish is eating, the fishes waste looks normal and the fish is active but definitely over-sized.

My tactic at this time is to not feed today, feed peas tomorrow but here is the part where this inter-mixes with this ticket.

EPSOM Salt - It is recommended I add this as part of my regular water treatments but before I do this - this ticket is telling the story of my tank and I do not want to disrupt what appears to be positive progress.

Is there any concerns with me adding EPSOM salts at this time?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

It won't harm the fish, but not sure why you want to add it. Once a fish bloats like that, there is often intenal damage caused by it. There may be little you can do for the fish at this point. It's apparently having trouble with excess fluids. There may be many causes. I think some report that Epsom can assist in that, but I'm highly skeptical of this.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Understood - Thank you for replying.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi,

Here is my latest tank results, which is very positive.

PH: 6.5
KH: 1 drop
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm

I am taking a wild shot but I am thinking:

A. Stick with doing small 25% changes to keep the PH at least at 6.5, else we will drop back to 6
B. Once we keep it stable and proven, at-least the best we can, that ammonia spikes are under control - than bump up and buffer the tank to 7.5.

Stay with this for a period of time and then buffer all the way up to 8.

What do people think? Opinions? Suggestions?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I'd do that for the next few days. If ammonia and nitrite stay at 0, then go ahead and buffer a bit.

Buffering raises KH, and oftentimes pH, but not necessarily. Buffer to get the KH up to 8 and let pH fall where it will. Don't buffer to raise pH. Sounds like that's what you're saying but maybe I'm misunderstanding.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Thanks again as always.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi,

Still remaining positive - latest test results.

PH Low: 6.4
KH: 1 drop
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

prov356 said:


> Buffer to get the KH up to 8 and let pH fall where it will.


My apologies - Yes I am looking to raise my KH - is 8 drops with the KH test what I am optimally aiming for?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

tim_s said:


> prov356 said:
> 
> 
> > Buffer to get the KH up to 8 and let pH fall where it will.
> ...


Yes, 8 or so is good. I'd be tempted to get the buffers up a bit now since pH is dropping a bit and you're not seeing ammonia elevated. You can do that either through larger water changes or a small addition of the baking soda.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Thank you for all your help - I have completed a water change to bump up the PH temporarily. Tomorrow I will start adding baking soda to bump up the KH to 8. I will let everyone know the results.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

tim_s said:


> Thank you for all your help - I have completed a water change to bump up the PH temporarily. Tomorrow I will start adding baking soda to bump up the KH to 8. I will let everyone know the results.


Just go slow and keep testing ammoina/nitrite.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi,

I have started adding baking soda, second teaspoon, will be retesting the KH. I am recording everything I am doing. To keep a record / trouble shoot if required - is this not what you where expecting ?


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

To expand:

1. Add 1 teaspoon of baking soda
2. Waiting an hour
3. Measure KH
4. Add another teaspoon if required.

If this seems premature - I can stop at 4 teaspoons and maintain this through water changes.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You do not want to raise pH more than 0.2 daily when fish are in the tank. Not sure if you can go faster during a fishless cycle.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Ok if this is the case I would need to switch a teaspoon a day model as my test kit is not as sensitive to detect a 0.2 of a PH


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Disregard the silly previous comment. I have succeeded in raising the PH from 6.4 to 6.6 - Here is the results of the test:

2011-12-04 09:09:28 | Ammonia 0 ppm
2011-12-04 09:19:04 | Baking Soda 1 tsp
2011-12-04 10:21:04 | KH 1 drop
2011-12-04 10:21:20 | Baking Soda 1 tsp
2011-12-04 11:27:13 | PH Low 6.6
2011-12-04 11:28:04 | KH 1 drop

-- Stopped --


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

You're doing great. Going slow is good, keep adding until KH is 3 (drops). :thumb:


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi,

Are you suggesting I continue to keep adding baking soda *today* to 3 drops? The tank has already risen 0.2 of a PH.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

I have spaced out the timing from starting again and the fish are highly active and not showing signs of distress. I have gone a head and added another teaspoon.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

You're focusing too much on pH. I'd get the KH up over the next day or two. The only important thing right now is to get KH high enough to keep the pH from dropping too low again. What you've done so far hasn't raised KH at all, so it's time to get more aggressive with it. This is just from my experience. I've never had fish suffer and die from pH changes. Some claim it'll harm them, but I'm not one of them. You want it to be stable. That's more important. The KH, ammonia, and nitrite measurements are important. Let pH fall where it will, as long as it's stable.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

prov356 said:


> You're focusing too much on pH. I'd get the KH up over the next day or two. The only important thing right now is to get KH high enough to keep the pH from dropping too low again. What you've done so far hasn't raised KH at all, so it's time to get more aggressive with it. This is just from my experience. I've never had fish suffer and die from pH changes. Some claim it'll harm them, but I'm not one of them. You want it to be stable. That's more important. The KH, ammonia, and nitrite measurements are important. Let pH fall where it will, as long as it's stable.


Totally agree....stability is the key. I know this from my past experience with reef tanks and SPS corals. Messing with water chemistry can be a disaster when it is not totally necessary.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi,

Here is the latest results:

2011-12-04 09:09:28 | Ammonia 0 ppm
2011-12-04 09:19:04 | Baking Soda 1 tsp
2011-12-04 10:21:04 | KH 1 drop
2011-12-04 10:21:20 | Baking Soda 1 tsp
2011-12-04 11:27:13 | PH Low 6.6
2011-12-04 11:28:04 | KH 1 drop
2011-12-04 15:11:12 | Baking Soda 1 tsp
2011-12-04 16:10:30 | KH 2 drop
2011-12-04 16:12:41 | PH 6.8
2011-12-04 19:08:26 | KH 2 drop
2011-12-04 19:09:52 | PH 7
2011-12-04 19:13:49 | Baking Soda 1 tsp
2011-12-04 22:24:54 | Baking Soda 1 tsp
2011-12-04 22:24:56 | Baking Soda 1 tsp
2011-12-05 07:45:52 | KH 3 drops
2011-12-05 07:51:00 | Baking Soda 1 tsp
2011-12-05 07:51:42 | Baking Soda 1 tsp
2011-12-05 07:52:22 | Ammonia 0 ppm
2011-12-05 07:52:29 | Nitrite 0 ppm

KH >= 3 now
Nitrite is 0
Ammonia is 0

Goal for today to get KH up to 6 drops


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

You're doing great and I think it's progressing well.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi,

The adding of baking soda is going smoothly - The fish seem great / possibly more colorful *but* this morning my KH was 3 and 5 teaspoons of Baking soda, my KH still measures a weak 3.

Right now I am doing it 2 - 3 teaspoons at a time, even though I know I am far off from the goal, should I increase the amount I am adding to the tank?


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

This is the results so far:

2011-12-04 09:09:28 Ammonia 0 ppm 
2011-12-04 09:19:04 Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-04 10:21:04 KH 1 drop 
2011-12-04 10:21:20 Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-04 11:27:13 PH Low 6.6 
2011-12-04 11:28:04 KH 1 drop 
2011-12-04 15:11:12 Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-04 16:10:30 KH 2 drop 
2011-12-04 16:12:41 PH 6.8 
2011-12-04 19:08:26 KH 2 drop 
2011-12-04 19:09:52 PH 7 
2011-12-04 19:13:49 Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-04 22:24:54 Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-04 22:24:56 Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-05 07:45:52 KH 3 drops 
2011-12-05 07:51:00 Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 07:51:42 Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 07:52:22 Ammonia 0 ppm  
2011-12-05 07:52:29 Nitrite 0 ppm 
2011-12-05 08:05:35 PH 7 
2011-12-05 13:49:45 KH 3 drop 
2011-12-05 13:49:58 Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 13:49:59 Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 13:52:14 Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 18:31:51 KH 3 drop 
2011-12-05 18:33:16 Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 18:33:17 Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 18:33:18 Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 20:10:27 Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 20:10:28 Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 21:03:20 KH 3 drop 
2011-12-05 21:03:30 Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 21:03:33 Baking Soda 1 drop

I will continue adding to the tank.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

You're doing fine. If the organic load is high in the system, it'll consume buffers. How would you rate the load, meaning how much in the way of organic waste/solids is there in the filters, substrate, etc? Maybe we've answered this already, but it's late and I just can't go back through 7 pages.  Otherwise, stay the course and let's see what it runs tomorrow. Sometimes the change isn't immediate.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi,

I really appreciated the fact even though it is late, that you have taken the time to respond. I actually attempted to find information online and I think you provided me the answer to the whole mystery.

This use to be my Piranha tank.

I have had two tanks for years 1 for SA cichlids and 1 for Piranhas but I moved and I had someone immediately interested in the SA cichlid tank, which was not planted / had fake plants. In both cases the tanks remained solid and barely fluxuactes, which is where I placed my belief the tanks where ok.

When I moved the very first change I made to the Piranha tank was to convert from fake plants to real plants.

I sold the Piranhas and changed this to an African tank, which unknowly the girlfriend has been providing shrimps during the day, like she did for the piranhas. - this is what I believed to have caused the initial ammonia spike.

Yes - beyond the story - above the waste will be huge. Piranhas are extremely messy both in waste and food particles. I removed over 90% of the plants but left plants staged infront of the equipment I.e. heaters, inputs / outputs of the filters. I did not change the filters since I wanted the filter, which was use to a high load to work well with the new fish.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

That may explain why the addition of buffers isn't having quite the expected affect. I'd work on a plan to get the organics down. Start with the substrate. It's hard for me to say exactly what to do without being in front of it, but I'd start working on it, possibly gradually. What type of substrate do you have?


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi,

I have been heavily focused on vaccuming the gravel, since the ammonia spike. I can remove the last of the plants - would be nervous to stop the filter at this time as I only have 1 canister. It does contain bio media, which maybe enough to preserve the bacteria.

Substrate = small / medium gravel


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Reading through the last few pages it seems you are trying to raise your KH permently now?

If your doing that then I would suggest picking up some epson salts (magnesium sulfate) and raising your GH so it is above 4 before any more adjustments. Baking soda can have the effect of spiking PH for short periods if your GH is low. Also a low GH will result in the KH crashing faster.

All African Cichlids will appreciate a Gh of 4 which is why I said that. You can look at your particular fish and see if you are able to raise it a little higher (harder). When talking about hardness of the Water you are talking about GH not KH. GH does not effect PH directly either, it effects it in regards to its interaction with the KH, or photosynthesis.

Thats my opinion anyway.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

All fish in my tank are Mbuna, mixture of Yellow labs, Red zebra and Salousi - I can provide scientific names for specifics. - I have yet to try anything else African.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> If your doing that then I would suggest picking up some epson salts (magnesium sulfate) and raising your GH so it is above 4 before any more adjustments. Baking soda can have the effect of spiking PH for short periods if your GH is low. Also a low GH will result in the KH crashing faster.


This isn't true. Forget GH for now. It doesn't affect KH or pH at all. And baking soda doesn't have the effect of spiking pH if it's kept up enough. That's what we're trying to do. You're thinking of sodium carbonate. Baking soda is soduim bicarbonate.



> GH does not effect PH directly either, it effects it in regards to its interaction with the KH, or photosynthesis.


 :-? :-? :-?



> All fish in my tank are Mbuna, mixture of Yellow labs, Red zebra and Salousi - I can provide scientific names for specifics. - I have yet to try anything else African.


Dont get sidetracked. Youi can adjust GH for rift lake cichilds later, if you liater. Much debate on whether it's necessary or beneficial.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi Tim (prov356),

My plan to start will be-to remove the plants from the tank - I have live plants within the tank, which most likely will die with hard water anyways. I will replace with fake plants for the effect and think about re-visiting this later on if I desire.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi,

So I have removed the plants - nothing to measure yet as it has just literally happened but this is where I am so far:

2011-12-04 09:09:28 | Ammonia 0 ppm 
2011-12-04 09:19:04 | Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-04 10:21:04 | KH 1 drop 
2011-12-04 10:21:20 | Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-04 11:27:13 | PH Low 6.6 
2011-12-04 11:28:04 | KH 1 drop 
2011-12-04 15:11:12 | Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-04 16:10:30 | KH 2 drop 
2011-12-04 16:12:41 | PH 6.8 
2011-12-04 19:08:26 | KH 2 drop 
2011-12-04 19:09:52 | PH 7 
2011-12-04 19:13:49 | Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-04 22:24:54 | Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-04 22:24:56 | Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-05 07:45:52 | KH 3 drops 
2011-12-05 07:51:00 | Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 07:51:42 | Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 07:52:22 | Ammonia 0 ppm 
2011-12-05 07:52:29 | Nitrite 0 ppm 
2011-12-05 08:05:35 | PH 7 
2011-12-05 13:49:45 | KH 3 drop 
2011-12-05 13:49:58 | Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 13:49:59 | Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 13:52:14 | Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 18:31:51 | KH 3 drop 
2011-12-05 18:33:16 | Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 18:33:17 | Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 18:33:18 | Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 20:10:27 | Baking Soda 1 drop  
2011-12-05 20:10:28 | Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 21:03:20 | KH 3 drop 
2011-12-05 21:03:30 | Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 21:03:33 | Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-06 08:03:58 | KH 3 drop 
2011-12-06 08:04:21 | Ammonia 0 ppm 
2011-12-06 08:04:30 | Nitrite 0 ppm 
2011-12-06 21:52:26 | KH 4 drop 
2011-12-06 21:55:55 | Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-06 21:55:56 | Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-06 21:55:56 | Baking Soda 1 tsp


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

> This isn't true. Forget GH for now. It doesn't affect KH or pH at all. And baking soda doesn't have the effect of spiking pH if it's kept up enough. That's what we're trying to do. You're thinking of sodium carbonate. Baking soda is soduim bicarbonate.


Not what I was thinking at all. Using baking soda with a low GH can result in a PH spike over 8.2, and a unstable PH/KH which tim_s is experiencing right now BTW. Anyway, I gave my input, take it or leave it.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi Everyone,

I want to thank everyone for their help so far and here is the latest test results:

2011-12-04 09:09:28 | Ammonia 0 ppm 
2011-12-04 09:19:04 | Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-04 10:21:04 | KH 1 drop 
2011-12-04 10:21:20 | Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-04 11:27:13 | PH Low 6.6 
2011-12-04 11:28:04 | KH 1 drop 
2011-12-04 15:11:12 | Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-04 16:10:30 | KH 2 drop 
2011-12-04 16:12:41 | PH 6.8 
2011-12-04 19:08:26 | KH 2 drop 
2011-12-04 19:09:52 | PH 7 
2011-12-04 19:13:49 | Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-04 22:24:54 | Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-04 22:24:56 | Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-05 07:45:52 | KH 3 drops 
2011-12-05 07:51:00 | Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 07:51:42 | Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 07:52:22 | Ammonia 0 ppm 
2011-12-05 07:52:29 | Nitrite 0 ppm 
2011-12-05 08:05:35 | PH 7 
2011-12-05 13:49:45 | KH 3 drop 
2011-12-05 13:49:58 | Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 13:49:59 | Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 13:52:14 | Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 18:31:51 | KH 3 drop 
2011-12-05 18:33:16 | Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 18:33:17 | Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 18:33:18 | Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 20:10:27 | Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 20:10:28 | Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 21:03:20 | KH 3 drop 
2011-12-05 21:03:30 | Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-05 21:03:33 | Baking Soda 1 drop 
2011-12-06 08:03:58 | KH 3 drop 
2011-12-06 08:04:21 | Ammonia 0 ppm 
2011-12-06 08:04:30 | Nitrite 0 ppm 
2011-12-06 21:52:26 | KH 4 drop 
2011-12-06 21:55:55 | Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-06 21:55:56 | Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-06 21:55:56 | Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-07 07:51:35 | KH 4 drops 
2011-12-07 07:53:39 | Ammonia 0 ppm 
2011-12-07 07:53:48 | Nitrite 0 ppm

I have removed the plants last night and I will continue adding baking soda.

Equation.

IF 1 tablespoon = 3 teaspoons
IF the standard convention = 1 tablespoon per 10 Gallons
IF I have current added 21 teaspoons

The standard convention says I have only buffered a 70 G so far, so this might be expected.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

You're doing fine. KH is coming up and ammonia and nitrite are measuring 0. Exactly what you want to see. Stay the course. Your logs are tremendously helpful, btw.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

tim_s, are you able to get a photo of your tank?

Might give some ideas as to why its taking so much baking soda to raise that KH. I assume your doing water changes which might decrease it some, but 21 teaspoons is a lot for 3 days. I suspect something in your tank is counter buffering.

It may not be the case but a picture would be nice anyway to see your tank and fishies


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi Tim (prov356),

Thank you - I have been recording everything, I am glad it is helping.

Hi Nodalizer,

I do not have a picture of my fish tank on me but I have attached a layout.

Ciclid caves are created from Slate + Dragon eye, the rocks at the front of the tank have holes for the fish to swim through and is a lava rock and the substrate is mixed gravel. All bought at a local fish store (be-it at high prices.)

Yesturday = Dec 6th 2011
Today = Dec 7th 2011


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Also - I have not done water changes since Saturday night.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Now you just make me want to see a picture even more 

That slate would look nice.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Wow! Shocking - Mystery solved. Ok do not laugh - it is so stupid I am ashamed.

So I am reading my "Teaspoon" it says "1/4 Teaspoon" so over the past 3 days I have only added 5.25 Teaspoons HA HA

Oh dear!


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Heh, that makes a lot more sense 

I never really used a propper measured teaspoon, its not that exact a science hehe, but a bit more acuracy can't hurt.

Kinda what you would expect for a KH of 4, so spot on so far. If you ever get to that amount of teaspoons (21) for a 90 galon and a lowish KH (4), go looking for whats wrong, it shouldn't take much.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Here is the corrected measurements:

2011-12-04 09:09:28 | Ammonia 0 ppm 
2011-12-04 09:19:04 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-04 10:21:04 | KH 1 drop 
2011-12-04 10:21:20 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-04 11:27:13 | PH Low 6.6 
2011-12-04 11:28:04 | KH 1 drop 
2011-12-04 15:11:12 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-04 16:10:30 | KH 2 drop 
2011-12-04 16:12:41 | PH 6.8 
2011-12-04 19:08:26 | KH 2 drop 
2011-12-04 19:09:52 | PH 7 
2011-12-04 19:13:49 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-04 22:24:54 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-04 22:24:56 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 07:45:52 | KH 3 drops 
2011-12-05 07:51:00 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 07:51:42 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 07:52:22 | Ammonia 0 ppm 
2011-12-05 07:52:29 | Nitrite 0 ppm 
2011-12-05 08:05:35 | PH 7 
2011-12-05 13:49:45 | KH 3 drop 
2011-12-05 13:49:58 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 13:49:59 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 13:52:14 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 18:31:51 | KH 3 drop 
2011-12-05 18:33:16 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 18:33:17 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 18:33:18 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 20:10:27 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 20:10:28 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 21:03:20 | KH 3 drop 
2011-12-05 21:03:30 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 21:03:33 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-06 08:03:58 | KH 3 drop 
2011-12-06 08:04:21 | Ammonia 0 ppm 
2011-12-06 08:04:30 | Nitrite 0 ppm 
2011-12-06 21:52:26 | KH 4 drop 
2011-12-06 21:55:55 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-06 21:55:56 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-06 21:55:56 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-07 07:51:35 | KH 4 drops 
2011-12-07 07:53:39 | Ammonia 0 ppm 
2011-12-07 07:53:48 | Nitrite 0 ppm 
2011-12-07 08:03:27 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-07 08:03:28 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-07 08:03:29 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp
2011-12-07 18:22:15 | KH 4 drops 
2011-12-07 18:35:52 | Baking Soda 1.5 tsp


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

There is no need to increase the amount your adding each time BTW.

Adding the small amount is a good thing not a bad thing when buffering for the first time.

Its good that we know now what was going wrong, but I would keep up with the small changes, don't be tempted to up the dose.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

What's your tank pH reading now?


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

KH = 5
PH = ??

On the PH low I get a clear 7.6 but on the PH high I get a 7.4


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

cut the difference then.. say 7.5


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Keep going, and you can go stronger now to get the KH up to 8. Ammonia and nitrite are 0, so nitrogen cycle is going fine. That was the concern with going slow. Get the KH up to 8 or so, get a water change and buffer replenishment plan in place to keep it there and enjoy the tank.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Thank you - Will get the tank's KH up tonight, here is todays results.

2011-12-04 09:09:28 | Ammonia 0 ppm 
2011-12-04 09:19:04 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-04 10:21:04 | KH 1 drop 
2011-12-04 10:21:20 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-04 11:27:13 | PH Low 6.6 
2011-12-04 11:28:04 | KH 1 drop 
2011-12-04 15:11:12 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-04 16:10:30 | KH 2 drop 
2011-12-04 16:12:41 | PH 6.8 
2011-12-04 19:08:26 | KH 2 drop 
2011-12-04 19:09:52 | PH 7 
2011-12-04 19:13:49 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-04 22:24:54 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-04 22:24:56 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 07:45:52 | KH 3 drops 
2011-12-05 07:51:00 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 07:51:42 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 07:52:22 | Ammonia 0 ppm 
2011-12-05 07:52:29 | Nitrite 0 ppm 
2011-12-05 08:05:35 | PH 7 
2011-12-05 13:49:45 | KH 3 drop 
2011-12-05 13:49:58 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 13:49:59 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 13:52:14 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 18:31:51 | KH 3 drop 
2011-12-05 18:33:16 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 18:33:17 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 18:33:18 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 20:10:27 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 20:10:28 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 21:03:20 | KH 3 drop 
2011-12-05 21:03:30 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 21:03:33 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-06 08:03:58 | KH 3 drop 
2011-12-06 08:04:21 | Ammonia 0 ppm 
2011-12-06 08:04:30 | Nitrite 0 ppm 
2011-12-06 21:52:26 | KH 4 drop 
2011-12-06 21:55:55 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-06 21:55:56 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-06 21:55:56 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-07 07:51:35 | KH 4 drops 
2011-12-07 07:53:39 | Ammonia 0 ppm 
2011-12-07 07:53:48 | Nitrite 0 ppm 
2011-12-07 08:03:27 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-07 08:03:28 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-07 08:03:29 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-07 18:22:15 | KH 4 drops 
2011-12-07 18:35:52 | Baking Soda 1.5 tsp 
2011-12-07 20:29:15 | KH 5 drop 
2011-12-08 07:50:59 | PH 7.7 
2011-12-08 07:53:26 | KH 4 drop 
2011-12-08 07:59:51 | Ammonia 0 ppm 
2011-12-08 08:00:06 | Nitrite 0 ppm 
2011-12-08 08:06:12 | Baking Soda 1 tsp


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi,

So, close to the goal - here is the latest results:

2011-12-04 09:09:28 | Ammonia 0 ppm 
2011-12-04 09:19:04 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-04 10:21:04 | KH 1 drop 
2011-12-04 10:21:20 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-04 11:27:13 | PH Low 6.6 
2011-12-04 11:28:04 | KH 1 drop 
2011-12-04 15:11:12 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-04 16:10:30 | KH 2 drop 
2011-12-04 16:12:41 | PH 6.8 
2011-12-04 19:08:26 | KH 2 drop 
2011-12-04 19:09:52 | PH 7 
2011-12-04 19:13:49 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-04 22:24:54 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-04 22:24:56 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 07:45:52 | KH 3 drops 
2011-12-05 07:51:00 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 07:51:42 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 07:52:22 | Ammonia 0 ppm 
2011-12-05 07:52:29 | Nitrite 0 ppm 
2011-12-05 08:05:35 | PH 7 
2011-12-05 13:49:45 | KH 3 drop 
2011-12-05 13:49:58 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 13:49:59 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 13:52:14 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 18:31:51 | KH 3 drop 
2011-12-05 18:33:16 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 18:33:17 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 18:33:18 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 20:10:27 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 20:10:28 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 21:03:20 | KH 3 drop 
2011-12-05 21:03:30 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-05 21:03:33 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-06 08:03:58 | KH 3 drop 
2011-12-06 08:04:21 | Ammonia 0 ppm 
2011-12-06 08:04:30 | Nitrite 0 ppm 
2011-12-06 21:52:26 | KH 4 drop 
2011-12-06 21:55:55 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-06 21:55:56 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-06 21:55:56 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-07 07:51:35 | KH 4 drops 
2011-12-07 07:53:39 | Ammonia 0 ppm 
2011-12-07 07:53:48 | Nitrite 0 ppm 
2011-12-07 08:03:27 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-07 08:03:28 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-07 08:03:29 | Baking Soda 0.25 tsp 
2011-12-07 18:22:15 | KH 4 drops 
2011-12-07 18:35:52 | Baking Soda 1.5 tsp 
2011-12-07 20:29:15 | KH 5 drop 
2011-12-08 07:50:59 | PH 7.7 
2011-12-08 07:53:26 | KH 4 drop
2011-12-08 07:59:51 | Ammonia 0 ppm 
2011-12-08 08:00:06 | Nitrite 0 ppm 
2011-12-08 08:06:12 | Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-08 19:49:58 | Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-08 21:01:09 | Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-08 22:01:40 | KH 6 drops 
2011-12-08 22:01:59 | Baking Soda 1 tsp
2011-12-08 23:02:03 | Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-09 07:52:35 | KH 7 drop 
2011-12-09 07:55:05 | Baking Soda 1 tsp 
2011-12-09 07:56:41 | Ammonia 0 ppm 
2011-12-09 07:56:50 | Nitrite 0 ppm

Tonight should be the night I reach 8 drops

Question: On the 8th drop and I am looking for it to be a solid blue? I.e. 9 turns it green?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Question: On the 8th drop and I am looking for it to be a solid blue? I.e. 9 turns it green?


Precision isn't important. A range of 8 or so is fine. But, to answer your question, I count the drop that turns it yellow.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Ta da - 8 drops for KH.

- Done -


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi,

I have a question.

*What I have done:*

Recorded each tsp of Baking soda, placed within the tank to reach 8 KH test drops.

I recorded 18

*What I wanted to do:*

18 / 4 = 4.5 (Rounded up to 5 tsp)

Change 25% of the water and add 5 tsp of Baking soda to return the removed amount.

*What actually happened according to my testing:*

I measured 10 drops on the KH test.

*My question:*

If I can maintain the 10 drops, should I proceed in this direction or should I reduce the returned amount of Baking soda each week until the amount returns back to 8?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

A range of 8-10 is fine.


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