# Ultracolor Fish Food



## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

This food seems to be a superior product. Anyone using it ? I'm interested in the Cichlid sinking Food. High protein, low carb, seafood ingredients.

http://www.prettybird.com/fish.htm


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## K20Z3 (Jul 18, 2008)

Looks to be the same thing that is being sold at KF, the no carb pellets? They both read almost the same.

Never used them, but they do sound like a good food source.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

KF's is a re-label repack, but it won't be sold there any more after it runs out.


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

raglanroad said:


> This food seems to be a superior product. Anyone using it ? I'm interested in the Cichlid sinking Food. High protein, low carb, seafood ingredients.


All fish need carbs and if you have an herbovores or omnivores this is not a complete diet.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

MalawiLover said:


> raglanroad said:
> 
> 
> > This food seems to be a superior product. Anyone using it ? I'm interested in the Cichlid sinking Food. High protein, low carb, seafood ingredients.
> ...


I think that in most fish foods, carbs are included because it's a cheap replacement for seafood with grain, and it binds the food. Carbs may be huge % , through listing flour, gluten, and meal of several grains, as well as through the veggies or seaweeds and algae. 


> Carbohydrates (starches and sugars) are the most economical and inexpensive sources of energy for fish diets. Although not essential, carbohydrates are included in aquaculture diets to reduce feed costs and for their binding activity during feed manufacturing. Dietary starches are useful in the extrusion manufacture of floating feeds. Cooking starch during the extrusion process makes it more biologically available to fish.
> 
> In fish, carbohydrates are stored as glycogen that can be mobilized to satisfy energy demands. They are a major energy source for mammals, but are not used efficiently by fish. For example, mammals can extract about 4 kcal of energy from 1 gram of carbohydrate, whereas fish can only extract about 1.6 kcal from the same amount of carbohydrate. Up to about 20% of dietary carbohydrates can be used by fish.


http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/420/420-256/420-256.html


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

Based solely on the guaranteed anaylis there is really very little difference between this food and NLS

NLS-
Protein 34% Min., Fat 5% Min., Fiber 5% Max., Ash 9% Max., Moisture 10% Max.

Ultracolor Fish Food-
Crude Protein (min) 54%, Crude Fat/Oil (min) 9%, Crude Fiber (max) 3%, Moisture (max) 10%

Infact NLS has less Fat (a major source of carbs).

So how is this one a better food?


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

I've been using NLS for years as sole diet or as main diet. It's good for most fish and it's economical.
But Ultracolor looks even better for my altums. It's a huge difference in protein level, and it's from seafood. also a big difference in lipids, both being expensive and wanted ingredients.

NLS top three


> Whole Antarctic Krill Meal, Whole Herring Meal, Wheat Flour


Ultracolor top three


> Herring Meal, Squid Meal, Kelp Meal


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

MalawiLover said:


> Based solely on the guaranteed anaylis there is really very little difference between this food and NLS
> 
> NLS-
> Protein 34% Min., Fat 5% Min., Fiber 5% Max., Ash 9% Max., Moisture 10% Max.
> ...


MalawiLover, Here's a bit explaining about lipids and carbs



> What types of fat are there?
> 
> The nature of the fat depends on the type of fatty acids that make up the triglycerides. All fats contain both saturated and unsaturated fatty acids but are usually described as 'saturated' or 'unsaturated' according to the proportion of fatty acids present. Saturated fats are generally solid at room temperature and tend to be animal fats. Unsaturated fats are liquid at room temperature and are usually vegetable fats - there are exceptions e.g. palm oil, a vegetable oil that contains a high percentage of saturated fatty acids.
> ....
> ...


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

As a veterinarian I am well versed in types of fats and their pros and cons. This food makes the claim that fish should get zero carb food "Zero Carbohydrate Advantage". If the food has any fat of whatever type (and there has quite a bit) there are carbs present.

What I am asking what you believe makes this food of your so much better than the the top brands out there (NLS, Hikari, etc.)? These brands have whole groups of scientists and animal nutritionist that have been working on their product formulation for many years.

You have provided no outside research proof confirming the claims this food makes about what fish need and what they don't.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

MalawiLover said:


> As a veterinarian I am well versed in types of fats and their pros and cons.


I'd be less so, then. I'm not sure what you are saying, though. You seem to be saying lipid content is carbohydrate. Can you show research showing support for your claim that all fish need carbohydrates in the diets ?



> This food makes the claim that fish should get zero carb food "Zero Carbohydrate Advantage". If the food has any fat of whatever type (and there has quite a bit) there are carbs present.


There are definitely carbs present, I think it should say "no carb foods added as a cheap source of replacement for seafood-based ingredients".



> What I am asking what you believe makes this food of your so much better than the the top brands out there (NLS, Hikari, etc.)?


 I'll explain in more detail; I'll try to flesh it out a bit.


> These brands have whole groups of scientists and animal nutritionist that have been working on their product formulation for many years.


NLS has had teams of scientists working for years ?
Please provide any support for that assertion that you may know of.

Anyway, often enough they work on how to replace seafoods with other, cheaper protein products...like grain. Blood. Feathers. Poop. 
Having more scientists is no guarantee of anything, really...they certainly did not apprehend the malamine tragedies, did they ?

In fact, I will compare Hikari also. And Tetra , another one with teams of scientists.



> You have provided no outside research proof confirming the claims this food makes about what fish need and what they don't.


I was not aware that I needed to. I don't see that you have brought such documentation about NLS or Hikari, though, as you demand of me.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

Hikari food sticks


> Fish meal, krill meal, wheat flour, alpha starch, flaked corn, rice bran, brewer's dried yeast, enzyme, cantaxanthin, asyaxanthin, L-lysine, DL-methionine, vitamins and minerals including stabilized vitamin C.
> Guaranteed Analysis Crude Protein Crude Fat Crude Fiber Moisture Ash
> 40% Min. 4% Min. 3% Max. 10% Max. 12% Max.
> Added Vitamins Vitamin A Vitamin C Vitamin D3 Vitamin E Copper
> 44,000 IU/kg 170 mg/kg 8,800 IU/kg 550 mg/kg 18 mg/kg


1/ Fish meal. Generic fish meal, no species name. Low grade. Much lower cost.
2/krill meal. Good in moderation.
......................

3/Wheat flour
4/alpha starch
5/flaked corn
6 rice bran
.......................
Ka-Ching ! Low lipid content even though the first two should provide good lipid levels..indicating grain replacements, as shown in the ingredient listings.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

Tetra Color Granules



> Fish Meal, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Wheat Germ Meal, Wheat Flour, Corn Gluten, Feeding Oat Meal, Potato Protein, Shrimp Meal, Dried Yeast, Wheat Gluten, Monobasic Calcium Phosphate, L-Lysine Mono-Hydrochloride, Lecithin, Algae Meal, Soybean Oil, Ascorbic Acid, Inositol, Niacin, A-Tocopherol-Acetate, Riboflavin-5-Phosphate, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate, Choline Chloride, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin A Palmitate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Folic Acid Cyanocobalamin, Cholecalciferol, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Cobalt Sulfate, Beta Carotene, Red No. 3, Ethoxyquin, and Citric Acid.


1/Fish Meal. Generic, no species name, low quality.
2/Dehulled Soybean Meal. 
3/Wheat Germ Meal
4/Wheat Flour
5/corn Gluten
6/Feeding Oat Meal
7Potato Preotein
8/Shrimp Meal. Questionable quality. just heads and shells sometimes...according to Pablo.
9/DriedYeast
10/ Wheat Gluten

....soy bean oil

Red 3. Carcinogen and estrogen mimick.
Ethoxyquin. Pesticide and Preservative that is being brought under control and removed from many foods.

****************************************************

all in all, a fish flavoured cracker. The long list of major ingredeints consists of cheap replacements for better quality seafood meals. The first ingredient is not in large proportion to the grains, it's relatively small , when we see so many grain products listed separately. Ratios of lipids is likely not optimal.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

NLS cichlid



> Whole Antarctic Krill Meal, Whole Herring Meal, Wheat Flour, Whole Squid Meal, Algae Meal, Soybean Isolate, Beta Carotene, Spirulina, Garlic, Vegetable and Fruit Extract (Spinach, Broccoli, Red Pepper, Zucchini, Tomato, Pea, Red and Green Cabbage, Apple, Apricot, Mango, Kiwi, Papaya, Peach, Pear), Vitamin A Acetate, D-Activated Animal-Sterol (D3), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine, DL Alphatocophero ( E ), Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Niacin, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, L-Ascorby-2-Polyphosphate (Stable C), Ethylenediamine dihydroiodide, Cobalt Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Choline Chloride.


good ingredients, but I want species-named fish meal number one, Superba Krill meal much less ( because of huge flouride content of shells) , and wheat...gone. And that's apparently just what I get, with Ultracolor. Much higher protein and the lipid level I'm looking for, in food for my fish.

So I'm very eager to try it out. Looks like it's full of quality ingredients in any case. One spelling mistake.

Ultracolor Cichlid



> Herring Meal, Squid Meal, Kelp Meal, Spiruliana, Chlorella Algae, Garlic, Yeast, Yeast Extract, Marigold Extract, DL Methionine, Paprika Oleoresin, Brewers Dried Yeast, Lecithin, L-Threonine, L-Tryptophan, Choline Chloride, Isoleucine, Betaine Anhydrous, L-Ascorbyl-
> 2-Polyphosphate (Source of Stabilized Vitamin C), Rosemary Extract, Mixed Tocopherols, Astaxanthin, Beta Carotene, Canthaxanthin, Inositol, Vitamin E Supplement, Biotin, Niacinamide, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of vitamin K3), Manganous Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Iodate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Selenium Yeast, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Bacillus Licheniformis, Bacillus Pumilus, Bacillus Coagulans, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Saccharomyces Cerevisiae.


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

It looks like a good food and I would try it especially if the price is good.
I am not the kind of hobbyist that claims a specific brand is the best and I believe there are multiple superior foods out there.
I'm not really an NLS thumper but it is a good food and I have used it.

This one looks good but not because there aren't any carbs in it, carbohydrates are a very important part to any diet.
I am not really sure why they claim to have 0 carbs, it probably has some and I know all animals utilize carbohydrates.
The only catch is different animals utilize carbs in different ways and at different rates.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

Hi Smellsfishy,
It does look good, doesn't it ? I'm looking for a better one...not found yet.

Carbohydrate in fish foods 


> Dietary Carbohydrate Utilization by Fish
> 
> Author: Stone1
> 
> ...


Carbs are included in order to skimp on seafood, and sometimes to make food float. Fish don't require dietary carbs, it seems.


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

That article pretty much supports my point of different species will utilize carbohydrates in different ways and at different rates.
Let's not generalize and say that all companies add carbs to skimp on seafood.
Some companies, at least the better ones, add a small amount of carbohydrate to offer a well balanced diet.

I do agree with you that some brands contain too much carbohydrate and this isn't good since most species can not use all of this efficiently.
However, since many species are omnivore or herbivore and need carbohydrates it is good to include some in their diets.
Which is why I believe the only downfall of the carb free food is the fact that it is has 0 carbs.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

smellsfishy1 said:


> That article pretty much supports my point of different species will utilize carbohydrates in different ways and at different rates.


and different fishes within species too.. CAN make use of it to some extent, but I do not see any reference saying it's required, or even prefereed, except for the purpose of eliminating costly seafoods or some specialty food requirements.



> Let's not generalize and say that all companies add carbs to skimp on seafood.


Well, that is the usual reason, isn't it ? it's stated over and over in literature.



> Some companies, at least the better ones, add a small amount of carbohydrate to offer a well balanced diet.


 Absolutely, carbs are used to support many an otherwise deficient feed.



> I do agree with you that some brands contain too much carbohydrate and this isn't good since most species can not use all of this efficiently.
> However, since many species are omnivore or herbivore and need carbohydrates


Could anyone please cite reference showing this need for dietary csrbs ? I find just the contradictory information; that dietary carbs are not essential nutrients in fish feed.



> It is good to include some in their diets.


 any kind of reference that you can point out to me on this - that carbs are a dietary essential ?

Here's something from the University of Guelph, which claims a Veterinary College of world-wide first rank, and home of the Hagen Aqualab.



> Carbohydrates represent a very large variety of molecules. The carbohydrate most commonly found in fish feed is starch, a polymer of glucose. Salmonid and many other fish have a poor ability to utilize carbohydrates. Raw starch in grain and other plant products is generally poorly digested by fish. Cooking of the starch during pelleting or extrusion, however, greatly improves its digestibility for fish. However, even if the starch is digestible, fish only appear to be able to utilize a small amount effectively. Carbohydrates only represent a minor source of energy for fish. A certain amount of starch or other carbohydrates (e.g. lactose, hemicellulose) is, nevertheless, required to achieved proper physical characteristic of the feed.


http://fishnutrition.uoguelph.ca/feedint.html#3.%20Carbohydrates


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

So, are you saying that the carbohydrates that some companies use to serve as fillers of their feed is bad to our fish or are you saying all carbs are bad for fish?
It is true that carbohydrates are a needed component of every organism and not all carbohydrates are created equal.
For example, the carbohydrates found in kelp, algae, or any other plant material is an ideal ingredient for a feed designed for omnivores or herbivores.
Even carnivores eat other organisms that consume carbohydrates as a normal part of their diets.

I just finished taking a 4 month course of biochemistry and I can tell you that carbohydrates are not a bad thing.
They are very much a needed thing and without them a diet is incomplete in most cases.
I would suggest you take a closer look at what carbohydrates are and how they work.
I hope I am not misunderstood, I just want to point out that there are good carbs in high quality foods.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

smellsfishy1 said:


> So, are you saying that the carbohydrates that some companies use to serve as fillers of their feed is bad to our fish


 could be, depending on fish and carb.


> or are you saying all carbs are bad for fish?


 no



> It is true that carbohydrates are a needed component of every organism and not all carbohydrates are created equal.
> For example, the carbohydrates found in kelp, algae, or any other plant material is an ideal ingredient for a feed designed for omnivores or herbivores.
> Even carnivores eat other organisms that consume carbohydrates as a normal part of their diets.
> 
> I just finished taking a 4 month course of biochemistry and I can tell you that carbohydrates are not a bad thing.


not claiming they are. Neither is sawdust a bad thing. nor feathers. nor poop.

But are we smart to buy feces feeds ? Crackers as fish food ? Yes, it "works" to raise fat animals quickly for market.

http://www.care2.com/c2c/share/detail/1217667


> â€œIt is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.â€


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*raglanroad*
How have you been Raglan? Good to see you are still up for these types of "knowledge excavations".

Eventually someone hits China on your threads... 

So, on your topic:

Although we "know" that only about 20% of carbs are used, and they are not used efficiently by fish (about 25% of the energy that a mammal can obtain from Carbs) I worry about jumping to any conclusion without proper study. All too often, one draws conclusions like Carbs not being necessary and only when we switch to the fad, do other concerns come to light.

I for one wonder about behavioral changes that might occur...

Paricipation of food carbohydrates in regulation of feeling of satiety in fish (by the example of the carp Cyprinus carpio): Pre- and postabsorptional mechanisms 
Journal Journal of Evolutionary Biochemistry and Physiology 
Publisher MAIK Nauka/Interperiodica distributed exclusively by Springer Science+Business Media LLC. 
ISSN 0022-0930 (Print) 1608-3202 (Online) 
Issue Volume 44, Number 5 / October, 2008

Are fish mentally satisfied without carbs? could they be stressed by some constant feeling of hunger?

I know that I do see some stress in my marine animals when I switched over to low carb diets... I've been wondering if some "filler" wouldn't decrease their food oriented agitation. The most relaxed fish in my marine tank is the Blue Tang that eats algae covered bits of aragonite!!! Those bits sure come out clean!

Perhaps some cichlids have similar non-dietary "needs" that might be overlooked by a low carb diet. HArd to know...


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

Hi number 6 ! I'm doing great...hope you are well, too !

so...I could just read the first page, but it seems they say they have no idea whether the injection of glucose into the belly of the fish, which slows it down, apparenlty, tells anything about the subject they are interested in ( dietary carbs and satiety of the carp).

..."feeeelinnngs, nothing more than feeeeelllinnngs" 

Besides..I don't want my altums to feel satiated, I want them to eat !
I guess that with every fish being different, it's tough to say every fish requires the same diet.
But fish very often eat fish as main diet, and the aim of the pet food industry and of fish farming is to reduce fish in feeds, save money. It's the main goal.

Carbs, of course, are found to some extent in foods not known as carb foods. Some studies suggest that up to 20 % carbs MAY be utilized...but was this when sufficient protein and lipid was supplied ? Or when deficient.
The main intent of the food producer, for most fish, I believe, is to offer carbs as they are present in seafoods, not adding all the fillers that to me look like over 50 % of tetra.

I do not immediately see reason that it's likely fish will have some insatiable craving for wheat flour, wheat gluten, corn and rice.
What % of these carbs do you figure in Hikari or Tetra cichlid food ?

Dave


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

Have you ever eaten a box of 'Nilla Wafers ?
Talk about satiety...don' wanna move.

Indigestion and bloat has the appearance of satiety too.

Nevertheless, I'd bet some inclusion of certain amounts of dietary carbs may be useful for some fish to some degree...

To me the import of the discussion is whether this food appears to have a better ingredient list than than others - such as Hikari. And it does appear so.


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

What about the studies that show diets too high in protien are bad or at the very least not utilized by the fish?

I found this one particularly interesting
Dietary protein and energy requirements of juvenile freshwater angelfish

From a previous thread about high protein diets and excess nitrogenous waste posted by Number6 a the last time this sort of thing came up


> The info I have from aquaculture papers pretty much speak to the costs and ammonia issues with feeding herbivores high protein food.
> Herbivores only use about 18 to 32% protein and excess protein is simply lost in the form of ammonia... up to 65% loss of protein in some herbivores has been found so most of the papers I know of worry about the lost money since protein is so expensive and the high ammonia production.
> 
> So ammonia is certainly a good reason, but if dealt with (e.g. via water changes, excellent filtration, etc.), then I will have to find out if there is any other reason...
> ...


here is the whole thread for those wishing to read it.


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

I guess I haven't been concise with my responses and the intention of my posts have gone misunderstood.
I didn't mean to offend you or sound nice while insulting you.
I apologize, this was not my intention.

I would like to use a certain African Cichlid group from Lake Malawi to make a point.
It is well documented that the natural diet of mbuna is primarily algae, invertebrates, zooplankton, and phytoplankton.
This gives me an idea of what to feed them and it doesn't require a scientific study.
The scientists that study these organisms and study the contents of their guts did this for me.

The carbohydrate percentage of algae or spirulina is in the range of 10-15% and the typical crustacean is composed of 2-3% carbohydrate.
I can use this information as a base line in offering a diet similar to this.
This goes for protein content, lipid content, amino acid content and so on....

I'm really not into your crackers, arsenic, nitrogen, and feces analogies but I understand your point but I can't see how eliminating carbohydrates all together could be a good thing.
I would like to ask you to provide a study that proves removing them all together offers an advantage.
All that you have provided states too much carbohydrates is a bad thing and with this I agree.
Where is the study that says 0 carbohydrates is ideal or is a better option?


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## Cento (Mar 30, 2005)

I'm not gonna lie to you...... a lot of this stuff is WAY over my head. And, not to call this entire discussion pointless, but.... I think its pointless... :lol: JK....

I think every, decent, moral, pet owner wants to give his/her pet the best care they can possibly give. But, in the end, nothing replaces nature. You can't give them a quality of life better then nature could. You can give your parrot, or snake, or spider the best "scientifically engineered" food, but it will never replace their natural environment, no?

So, even if you spent decades perfecting the best cichlid feed, you'll never see their true behaviour, or see them truely satisfied unless it was in their natural habitat. To think your idea of "ideal" living conditions is better then that is, IMHO, presumptuous.

For tanganyikans, for instance, there are conditions in the lake that we would never be able exactly mimic. For instance, I know from studies I've read that fish get there minerals from not just food but water also. So, even additives/buffers wouldn't be able to mimic precisely the mineral content the limestone (or what ever rock or sediment that is present that contributes minerals) gives off into the water. Even environmental factors outside the lake such as weather (sunlight, rain, thunder & lightening, seasonal water current fluctuations, etc) can contribute in ways scientists still don't understand.

If a person is so concerned with the welfare of fish, they shouldn't keep fish in an aquarium, rather, let them live as nature intended, and join PETA. HA! (who woudn't wanna walk around with waterguns full of red paint to spray the rich!!)

Long story short (too late), food is a part of a HUGE ecology, that is made up of many many parts. It seems to me that too much emphasis or trust is being put on food as being the key factor in giving our pet the best quality of life, rather then seeing the whole picture. I think if one were to step back and see where food fits in the grand scheme of things, its not as big of a deal as it's made out to be.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

MalawiLover said:


> What about the studies that show diets too high in protien are bad or at the very least not utilized by the fish?
> 
> I found this one particularly interesting
> Dietary protein and energy requirements of juvenile freshwater angelfish


Sorry, but I'd have to say that I don't see that the study says anything about a diet too high in protein. If I were to generalize, it seems what they're saying is that apparently it may be that as protein content rises, it's _less efficiently used_. Quite distinctly different from "bad" or 'not utilized'.

Isn't such variance in _efficiency_ - over the range, from fish starving, to overfed fish - to be expected ?


> From a previous thread about high protein diets and excess nitrogenous waste posted by Number6 a the last time this sort of thing came up
> 
> 
> > The info I have from aquaculture papers pretty much speak to the costs and ammonia issues with feeding herbivores high protein food.
> > Herbivores only use about 18 to 32% protein and excess protein is simply lost in the form of ammonia... up to 65% loss of protein in some herbivores has been found so most of the papers I know of worry about the lost money since protein is so expensive and the high ammonia production.


I am aware that excess may require energy expenditure, as a least or minimum of possible negative influences.



> Number 6 said:
> 
> So ammonia is certainly a good reason, but if dealt with (e.g. via water changes, excellent filtration, etc.), then I will have to find out if there is any other reason...
> 
> ...


Vit A overload is my first suspicion. Seems that the mention of _spirulina_ is of significance in that sentence. I always cite the best sources of information http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/in ... 422AAfDo9e


> here is the whole thread for those wishing to read it.


thanks, I'll read it.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

smellsfishy1 said:


> I guess I haven't been concise with my responses and the intention of my posts have gone misunderstood.
> I didn't mean to offend you or sound nice while insulting you.
> I apologize, this was not my intention.


 Not to worry. I like an edge in conversation.


> I would like to use a certain African Cichlid group from Lake Malawi to make a point.
> It is well documented that the natural diet of mbuna is primarily algae, invertebrates, zooplankton, and phytoplankton.
> 
> This gives me an idea of what to feed them and it doesn't require a scientific study.


[/quote] Which prepared food is mainly made of those vs. a food with all of them together compriosing only half of the food ?



> The scientists that study these organisms and study the contents of their guts did this for me.]
> 
> The carbohydrate percentage of algae or spirulina is in the range of 10-15% and the typical crustacean is composed of 2-3% carbohydrate.
> I can use this information as a base line in offering a diet similar to this.


 now add an equal amount of grain flours, glutens, and meals, and we're talking about prepared foods in general 


> I'm really not into your crackers, arsenic, nitrogen, and feces analogies but I understand your point but I can't see how eliminating carbohydrates all together could be a good thing.


My coments come from a refusal to agree that "teams of scientists" on board are looking for optimimum of fish health of our pets. They are looking to maximize profit for bosses while not obviously killing fish. If the fish had health problems such as fatty liver, but were not reported, as long as profits soared, they would have been successful.

I don't agree with the implication that there are zero carbs in the food, I think it's better stated that "carb" foods are not added for fillers.

[/quote]I would like to ask you to provide a study that proves removing them all together offers an advantage.[/quote] Oh, I don't think I stated that.



> All that you have provided states too much carbohydrates is a bad thing and with this I agree.


 We're in agreement on that then. 


> Where is the study that says 0 carbohydrates is ideal or is a better option?


 I don't think it's likely so for all fish at all times, so I would not make that statement, and have no need to support such a statement.

On the other hand, I have not been provided evidence for all the claims made here..teams of scientists working for NLS, independent refereed studies showing it and Hikari to do such and such for every kind of ornamental fish, dietary carbs are essential. Possibly Lipid equals Carbs. Not sure what was really said. None of those have been supported or expanded upon as the case may be.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

BTW, Guys.

got some Ultracolor. It smells real, the altums ate greedily, and that's good so far.


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

raglanroad said:


> It smells real,


What do you mean by "real"? Real what? If you mean like real fish, then smell some fresh NLS or any of those gel food packets. Smells like real fish to me.



> the altums ate greedily, and that's good so far.


Dogs love cat poo and american cheese wrappers, does that make it good for them?


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

MalawiLover said:


> raglanroad said:
> 
> 
> > It smells real,
> ...


 Yes..NLS smells like real food too. Exactly.



> > the altums ate greedily, and that's good so far.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 These old altums are not greedy dogs though. Your yellow labs will box up on NLS Growth, in a week, and need to be cut down to regular NLS or a mix. These fish are not those fish.

You don't understand yet.

Altums are "hard gainers", never get fat... I've been noticing that when I supplemented NLS with NZ greenshell mussel, they gained better. they always had a problem, as so many do, of losing appetite as they age ..

Eating greedily, in this case, is a "must".

they will eat a lot of bloodworm, but bloodworm has risks and concerns for humans, and wrecks the budget.

So I listed the preliminaries of trialing a food, for my fish; checking ingredient list, gross analysis, scent, and of serious importance....they gotta like it.


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

*raglanroad*
Another thing to consider is the expiration date.
Less fillers and less preservatives will cut into how long it stays nutritionally potent.
Just something to remember while you are trying that ultra food.
Remember, I'm not against it I am actually for it so let me know whatever you can in terms of results or information.


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

> Which prepared food is mainly made of those vs. a food with all of them together compriosing only half of the food ?


This one is pretty good and would fit the bill. http://www.omegasea.net/super_kelp_pellets.html
It really only contains a small amount of wheat as a binder.

[/quote]My coments come from a refusal to agree that "teams of scientists" on board are looking for optimimum of fish health of our pets. They are looking to maximize profit for bosses while not obviously killing fish. If the fish had health problems such as fatty liver, but were not reported, as long as profits soared, they would have been successful.


> What you are going to have to do is conduct your own experiments and feed whichever food you like for a fair amount of time and then cut one open and check its liver.
> How else would you know for sure?


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

smellsfishy1 said:


> *raglanroad*
> Another thing to consider is the expiration date.
> Less fillers and less preservatives will cut into how long it stays nutritionally potent.
> Just something to remember while you are trying that ultra food.
> Remember, I'm not against it I am actually for it so let me know whatever you can in terms of results or information.


Thank you. I won't be reporting slight colouration differences or anything of that nature...and since they are already middle aged, and hard gainers, I'll likely only be able to tell if it puts on some mass later on.
with Africans you can tell almost immediately if they are getting too much or not enough nutrient.
as I mentioned about NLs, , yellow labs boxed out very quickly but Topheus never seemed over fed on the same food. Reverse of what should be , going by the "theories" in circulation.



> This one is pretty good and would fit the bill. http://www.omegasea.net/super_kelp_pellets.html
> It really only contains a small amount of wheat as a binder.


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

[/quote]Thank you. I won't be reporting slight colouration differences ro anything...and since they are already middle aged, and hard gainers, I'll likely only be able to tell if it puts on some mass later on.
with Africans you can tell almost immediately if they are getting too much or not enough nuitrient.
as I mentioned about NLs, , yellow labs boxed out very quickly but Topheus never seemed over fed on teh same food. Reverse of what should be , by the cirulatiing theories.[/quote]

I am not concerned with color either more so if you get the results desired.
If you don't mind could you elaborate on your comment about tropheus and yellow labs.
Not sure what you mean by that and the circulating theories. 
Thanks pal.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

> raglan road said:Thank you. I won't be reporting slight colouration differences ro anything...and since they are already middle aged, and hard gainers, I'll likely only be able to tell if it puts on some mass later on.
> with Africans you can tell almost immediately if they are getting too much or not enough nuitrient.
> as I mentioned about NLs, , yellow labs boxed out very quickly but Topheus never seemed over fed on the same food. Reverse of what should be , by the cirulatiing theories.





> I am not concerned with color either more so if you get the results desired.
> If you don't mind could you elaborate on your comment about tropheus and yellow labs.
> Not sure what you mean by that and the circulating theories.
> Thanks pal.


sorry I was post-editing when you were posting. I'll leave it as is anyway.

Feeding the African on NLS Growth produced yellow labs turning into box-like shape, very visible boxiness very quickly. Tropheus just seemed to grow well and reproduce well. I had been feeding HBH and shrimp, but the massive feeding I do polluted the water and was expensive. I might feed fifty times on a good day.

So I tried NLS sole diet, and got good results, but had to cut back on Growth food and go with the NLS Thera A, with lesser nutrient value.

As Tropheus are considered herbivores by some, what I saw might be considered "counterintuitive" for one who accepts the going theories on high nutrient levels and herbivores vs. high nutrient levels and carnivores.

The Tropheus should possibly have been the fatties, as they were the herbivores on "too rich diet"

BTW, I never saw a fish gulp down a red wigggler worm so fast as a Tropheus will.  Bang. Hit it and sucked it down like spaghetti.
Altums not interested in red wigglers.


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

Why should the tropheus become fat just because of protein content?
Who claims this and what is the basis for this assumption?
Not trying to question you here, just questioning the "accepted theory" as you called it.
I think your results are perfectly normal and expected.
Tropheus are very active and probably expend more energy than do yellow labs.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

smellsfishy1 said:


> Why should the tropheus become fat just because of protein content?
> Who claims this and what is the basis for this assumption?
> Not trying to question you here, just questioning the "accepted theory" as you called it.
> I think your results are perfectly normal and expected.
> Tropheus are very active and probably expend more energy than do yellow labs.


I am in perfect agreement with you on this. Let me find some references to feeding those Africans on higher protein.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

raglanroad said:


> ...
> So I listed the preliminaries of trialing a food, for my fish; checking ingredient list, gross analysis, scent, and of serious importance....they gotta like it.


p.s. forgot the obvious one; finding and considering anecdotes that hobbyists relate, on their usage or trials of it.

I've been feeding them the pellets all evening. I'll try to post a video of how I get the fish to calm down and eat, rather than being terriorial. This method allowed me to increase their consumption of food very very substantially, after I had roused them out of their long standing previous slowing-down mode ( fading away...just sitting in the tank, unlike when they are young.). It's common.
In any case, I had treated them several times for supected pathogens such as worms and flag, but some combination of treatments and food changes, addition water now at a different temp ...something roused them.
but the trickling of food bit by bit in the same spot many times a day allowed them to stay calm and eat what they wouldn't eat otherwise ( if I just scatter the food). also really reduces tension in the group this way, and keeps them accustomed to human movements nearby. So they don't freak out and kill themselves, you know.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

raglanroad said:


> smellsfishy1 said:
> 
> 
> > Why should the tropheus become fat just because of protein content?
> ...


this thread that MalawiLover posted shows that this guy also has heard those 'theories'. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... n&&start=0

I'll get another thread with someone who argues the case for low protein a bit more than this guy.

Thought I'd post this, by Pablo T. of NLS. He talks about the grain carb problem. Since NLS has, in this thread, been said to rely on evidence-based science for their formulations, we can then, "with confidence"  say that


> Grain by-products are also very difficult to digest by many species, and when used excessively can cause gastrointestinal issues due to poor digestibility and absorption rates. Consequently, pathogenic bacteria start multiplying inside the intestinal tracts, doubling their population as quickly as every 20 minutes, resulting in bloat. In most cases this condition is extremely contagious and the end result is usually fatal.


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

raglanroad said:


> So I tried NLS sole diet, and got good results, but had to cut back on Growth food and go with the NLS Thera A, with lesser nutrient value.


This can be expected with almost any animal. Nutrient requirement change as they age. Grow is intended for you fish, much like puppy food. Once they reach their adult size certain nutirents should be cut back while other perhaps increased.

I find that ots of people also overfeed their mbuna. In general mbuna are seriously greedy pigs. In their natural habitat food os rather low nutrition so they have this drive to eat at every opportunity and stuff as much in their mouth as will fit. I think due to the expense of purchase and known sensativities of tropheus digestion, their keepers are much more careful with how much and what types they feed.

This could easily account for the average lab being a bit on the chunky side compared to tropheus.

My labs (actually none of my mbuna) get "boxy"


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

MalawiLover said:


> raglanroad said:
> 
> 
> > So I tried NLS sole diet, and got good results, but had to cut back on Growth food and go with the NLS Thera A, with lesser nutrient value.
> ...


Nope. Not in this case; all fish in the same tank and fed and fed. Tropheus were more energetic/active and get more food, not less. They were young Yellow Labs. They gain weight easier than Tropheus, IMO.

Your photo is like the moderate body shape mine had on HBH and frozen brine.

The Yellow Labs just got fat on that much NLS Growth food. ( not at first, just the med size juvies and older). They didn't grow in length in proportion to weight gain.
I got fast growth and early breeding of Tropheus, steadily increasing to clutches of 14 by this constant "overfeeding" method


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

on the topic of scientific controls for Ultracolor quality, I'm able to find what they do for bird feeds, PrettyBird's main product


> - Quality
> Quality is our primary concern in food, packaging, and customer service. We operate an in house quality assurance lab with a microbiologist on staff. An independent laboratory runs continual analysis to assure consistency in composition. Our in house toxicology lab screens all incoming grains for toxins. This ensures the purity of any raw materials in the manufacture of our feeds. Our breeding and research facility in Florida is always using the food which is currently being sold providing an additional quality assurance safeguard. We do it ourselves to make sure it's done right.


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

You will get similar assurences from almost all brand webs sites. I am not say they don't do this, I beleive they do, but even the crappier food manufactures have these type of statments on their sites.


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## joeyballz (Jul 1, 2008)

I've been using this food for over a year and love it. I've gotten great growth and color.


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## etcbrown (Nov 10, 2007)

Just pay for an advertisement on the site, it would be easier. :thumb:


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

Why oh why did someone bring this thread back up?
gift horse and mouth come to mind.


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## joeyballz (Jul 1, 2008)

etcbrown said:


> Just pay for an advertisement on the site, it would be easier. :thumb:


was that directed at me? I found this thread while searching for a new supplier of the food. My current supplier is remodeling and closed. I figured I'd share my exp with the food. I didn't read the past the first page so I missed the drama.


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## ambok (Dec 16, 2010)

this is one of the best. . good job. . .


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