# #@$!% Heaters



## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

Came home today to find one of my tanks at 92 degrees. The stupid heater was stuck on. So far all the fish seem ok, theyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re breathing a bit heaver of course, but they seem fine. Are the fish likely to suffer any adverse effects from this? Will my beneficial bacteria be ok? What temperature range can the BB tolerate?

I really didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t want to sink a bunch of money into controllers for all of my tanks, but what other choice is there? This was a 3 month old heater and showed no signs of trouble up until now. ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s a shame they canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t produce something more reliable. :?


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## Cento (Mar 30, 2005)

Unfortunately, failures can happen to even the best of heaters. That's why a controller is a smart buy. Heating tends to be a grossly underfunded component of aquariums. I got a controller for $50. There are some affordable ones out there.

I'm glad to hear all inhabitants are fine. You're bacteria should be fine. I wouldn't worry too much about it. Do a water change to bring the temp back down. Good luck!


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

One other option is to find a heater size that can keep the tank at the desired temp, say 78, but will only max it out to mid 80's. Not easy, but doable. What size tank, and what's the typical room temp? What size was the heater that failed?


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## aspen (Jun 15, 2004)

your fish might breed if you lower the temp fairly quickly.

i doubt there are many common species thqt would be harmed like that. the good side is, that it didn't go over 100. then it'd be all dead fish.

rick


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## bulldogg7 (Mar 3, 2003)

Heaters are often overated for most rooms, and when one does stick it can heat up the tank quick. I have a stealth 250watt on my 180 and the tank never gets below 77F, but the room stays 73F and the lights help heat during the day. According to some sites a 250watt is only good for a 60gal. 
A controller and a backup heater would be a wise investment, but something I have yet to do. 
Lots of heaters come with warranties, too bad they don't cover livestock when something goes wrong :?


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

I brought the temperature down slowly. I didn't want to shock them with too fast of a drop. This is the first time they actually enjoyed a water change. Usually they hide when they see the python hose coming.

The tank is my 40 breeder. The heater was a 150 watt, and the room temp has never been below 68 degrees. I've already decided to go with a lower wattage heater, and probably a different brand. Right now, the replacement is another 150 watt I bought as a "just in case" spare. It's the same brand as the faulty heater. So, I don't plan to keep it - at least not without a temp controller.


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

bulldogg7 said:


> Lots of heaters come with warranties, too bad they don't cover livestock when something goes wrong :?


Unfortunately, it seems heaters malfucntion all to frequently. But, who is going to spend $20,000 on a law suit to replace a couple of hundred dollars worth of fish?


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## bulldogg7 (Mar 3, 2003)

pain and suffering.... :roll: 
wished somebody had the money to blow, they might decide to start building in a few failsafes. Stealths, are supposed to shut down if left dry or out of the water, don't remember if that includes shutting down if the switch sticks or not.


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## JWerner2 (Jul 7, 2008)

prov356 said:


> One other option is to find a heater size that can keep the tank at the desired temp, say 78, but will only max it out to mid 80's. Not easy, but doable. What size tank, and what's the typical room temp? What size was the heater that failed?


*+1.*

I had this happen to me just the other day. The first time it ever happened in all the years I had tanks.

I found a turtle tank heater for a 10 and it gets my kids 20l just to where I need it.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

What brand of heater was it?


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Funny thing is that there is a somewhat simple way they could make the contacts more reliable. I'm sure I've missed something about why they don't. Having been an old switchman with a telephone company I know there are far more reliable contacts. Any old car repair guys can also tell you the points on a car were a constant pain as they welded themselves together often. It really made a good item for repair shops. The telephone companies had to fix theirs for free, though. Their contact surfaces were designed so they slid across each other as they closed. This slide action self burnished each time wiping the small burn from the last arcing clean. This made them last much longer before the burn added up to failure. With all the micro electronics, is it really necessary to run 120AC through the contacts? Maybe if you made good heaters that lasted twenty years and sold for 90/100 dollars you don't make money as well as the current sort? :-?


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## king uther (Jul 7, 2009)

Try using 2 smaller wattage heaters at opposite ends of the tank. The fish will let you know if one malfunctions.


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## king uther (Jul 7, 2009)

Also, 150 watts seemsa bit much for 40 gallons.


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## ssondubs (Nov 16, 2008)

I had two Rena Smart heaters malfunction in the same manner, the heaters would stay on. Now I have a Jager heater and seems to do a better job keeping the heat stable. I also have a Stealth heater on a different tank and its been 100% reliable for the past year and a half so far.

Also wanted to know what is a controller you guys are talking about?


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

I ended up placing an order for some temperature controllers. Unless they hire *PfunMo* to come up with a more fail safe design, IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m just not going to trust them.



noddy said:


> What brand of heater was it?


It was a Marineland Stealth heater. I specifically avoided bringing the brand name into it because it seems they all have some issues. However, I did leave my Ã¢â‚¬Å"feedbackÃ¢â‚¬Â


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

ssondubs said:


> Also wanted to know what is a controller you guys are talking about?


These are what I bought:

(ETCI-1R) Electronic Temperature Control


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## Cento (Mar 30, 2005)

jrf said:


> I ended up placing an order for some temperature controllers...


 :thumb:

As I said earlier, it'll give you peace of mind, help regulate your temp more accurately, and probably extend the life of your heater...

I've only purchased my controller a few months back, but I'd have to say, in all the years I've been fishkeeping, I've been fortunate enough to not have a heater fail on me. Let's hope it'll never happen...


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## Tom S (Dec 28, 2009)

What is the temperature of the room you are keeping the tank in? The colder the room, the greater the temperature difference and the shorter the cycle time of the heater will be. A shorter cycle time will cause the contacts to open and close more often, and thus wear faster.

This could also be why an undersized heater is less likely to fail at the contacts. Because it takes longer for the low wattage heater to warm up the water to the off point, the cycle time is increased. Increased cycle time, the longer the contacts will last.

Heaters are probably made to be as cost-effective as possible, with an expected lifetime. The designer won't choose contacts that will outlast the expected lifetime, since they will cost more. So, the lifetime will probably be limited by the number of times the contacts can be activated before failure. Once again, shorter cycles mean a shorter lifetime.

Temperature controllers are a good idea. I have one or two free ones at work from salesmen I may hook up in the future. They are designed to switch electric motors on, so they should have no wear problems with a small load like a heater.

-Tom


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

Tom S said:


> The colder the room, the greater the temperature difference and the shorter the cycle time of the heater will be. A shorter cycle time will cause the contacts to open and close more often, and thus wear faster


The room is typically in the lower 70's and never below 68.

I do agree with your logic. However, even if the contacts were clicking like a telegraph machine, I would think it would take longer than 3 months for them to fail.


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## ssondubs (Nov 16, 2008)

Just wondering what your guys thoughts of running the heaters horizontal vs vertical?

I would imagine when running the heaters vertical would lead the switch for the internal thermostat to click off quicker since the warm water is raising up to it were as a horizontal positioned heater the thermostat would be out of the pathway of rising warm water.


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

I don't know if one way is better than the other, but mine was horizontal - simply because that hid it better than vertical placement.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

JRF --Sorry but that may be a really long wait. It would take a very large barrel to hold any contact I make. The princle is simple but cutting metal down to that size is way out of my reach. I suspect controllers are what we have to deal with for the present. There is a remote temp reading thermostat that could control 110 AC but it is also more expensive than most would use.


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

PfunMo said:


> It would take a very large barrel to hold any contact I make


Sounds like I'm going to need a larger tank then. :lol:

I do wonder what the barrier really is in producing something more reliable - cost, technology, market size? With how far we've evolved in electronics, I'd have to guess they just don't see a market for expensive, high quality heaters.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Suspect it is a combo of all those. Also the folks who are working and really want to make electro gizmos tend to make Ipods or something that makes noise. Maybe we are just toooo quiet?


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## JWerner2 (Jul 7, 2008)

Stealth huh?

Funny, thats the only brand I trust.

I know I never had a problem with any of mine til this recent one.

I do miss the old titanium ones though.


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

Tonight my fish donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t seem to be doing as well. TheyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re all lethargic and resting on the bottom. They all ate, but something is definitely wrong. I tested the water Ã¢â‚¬â€œ Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 10. Now IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m not sure what to do for them.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Now IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m not sure what to do for them.


Try another water change.



> However, even if the contacts were clicking like a telegraph machine


They really don't operate like this typically. I sat and monitored one once. There's a one degree or so zone that typical heaters operate within. If you set it for 78, then it may go up to 78.5 before it clicks off. Then it'll drop to 77.5 before it clicks back on. It may take anywhere from 30-45 or so for the water to first heat that one degree and then another 30-45 minutes to drop that one degree. Any heater that's clicking on and off frequently is probably defective to begin with.


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

Ok, I did a water change. There didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t seem to be any immediate improvement. So, I guess IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ll see if theyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re doing any better tomorrow.


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

This morning there seems to be a better level of activity in the tank. So, for now I'm remaining optimistic.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

jrf said:


> This morning there seems to be a better level of activity in the tank. So, for now I'm remaining optimistic.


More water changes.


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

prov356 said:


> More water changes.


Will do. What do you suspect the water changes are accomplishing?


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## SupeDM (Jan 26, 2009)

The water changes are for your fishes safety. If the quick rise and fall of water temp stressed the biofilter then the water changes will help avoid a mini cycle and elevated ammonia and or Nitrite. Anytime a fish has been stressed it is a good idea to keep the water as pristine as humanly possible afterwards to reduce the chance of bacterial infection and insure the fish recover without adding pressure with unclean water.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

jrf said:


> prov356 said:
> 
> 
> > More water changes.
> ...


They can dillute any toxins or disease organisms in the water that aren't identified. If you saw improvement after the one change, then I'd continue. Any time there's some unknown issue going on it's a good thing to try. That's assuming of course that the tap water isn't the source of the problem. That's why you watch to see if things get better or worse after a change. Water changes can do a world of good.

An added thought: If the temp in the room during the summer stays higher than what the heater is set for, then it should never kick on and it's not a risk. Every tank is a bit unique and needs to be managed differently.


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