# newbie with Bolivian Rams - sexing 2 rams



## poorgirl (Nov 1, 2009)

Hi all,

Just brought 2 Bolivian Rams a few days ago. they are still only about 1.5 inch long and I am finidng it hard to sex them.

One has the small sex tube? at the base that resembles some of the male photos so could be a male but the other doesnt show any anyhting there at all.

Are they too small to sex? and how long before they grow to maturity?

Thanks

Poorgirl


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

My absolute favorite place to find Bolivain Ram info. The site owner is a member of the forum.

http://brc.moonfruit.com/

Great pics for help sexing and lots of info.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Hi there,

They are probably to small to be sex them accurately. Also fish that tend to be skinny are very hard to sex en unfortunately most of the Bolivians from the stores are skinny. If you are able to take a clear pic of the vent aria and a pic of the fish (from the side) we can give it a shot to sex them.


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## poorgirl (Nov 1, 2009)

Thanks guys.

I will upload pic when I can take them.

At the moment one of them is sort off pick on the other one. It would charge up it or grab hold of fins and pull. The other Ram would dart away to safety then no more than 5 sec later it will return like it wants more punishment. Sometimes the weaker ram does return a nip or two but usually it is just one way. It doesnt seem to hide away though. Not sure if that is normal behaviour. Anything to worry about?

Also I find that overnight, both fish's body seem to go a darker marking then disapears when lights are turn on.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Hi there,

During the dark period Bolivians become pail with dark blotches and paterns. Thats normal. It disappears in 5 minutes after the lights switched on. Notice the fish are still sleepy in those first 5 minutes. If you ever need to catch fish you can take advantage of that sleepy period :wink:

Abouth the picking,.....in a way it is normal. Only problem is,.....there are just 2 fish and one might end as being chased all the time around by the dominant one. This is one of the reasons why I always recommend to keep Bolivians in a small group of 5 or more. Unfortunately not everyone does have a 40 gallon or larger tank. I hope the two work it out. Make sure there is enough hiding place to escape the dominant fish.

Ruurd


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## poorgirl (Nov 1, 2009)

Er i have pics now...how to I post them.

er..never mind ...see below


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## poorgirl (Nov 1, 2009)

My 2 B Ram:









and 2nd ram which is always been chase by the top one:









I do have a 165 litre tank (50 gallons?) with the following fishes:

8 Neon Tetra, 2 Serpae Tetra, 3 Pristella Tetra, 1 Zebra Danio, 1 Chinese Algea Eater, 3 Galaxy Rasbora and 2 Bolivian Rams

How many more Bolivian Rams can I keep in the tank?

Thanks Guys.


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

That works out to between a 40 and 50 US gallons so you could easily do a small group of 5-6. If its closer to the 4ft mark on length you could probably up it to 7 if you wanted. Their social interaction in larger groups is really neat


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

For some reason it takes ages for the pic to show up so I'll try tomorow and hope things work normal.

For that size tank you could have 5 bolivians without any issue. Theyr social behaviour is indeed much more interesting in groups and most likely you will have some spawning fish as well.


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## poorgirl (Nov 1, 2009)

Thanks MalawiLover and Dutch Dude.

My tank is more tall than long. So I will probably get 1 or 2 female rams depending on what sex my current 2 are.

I have just added more plants to the tank and they seem to be liking that.

I fed some flakes today but they dont seem to be interested, well the strong one spits them out and the weaker one takes notice, just wants the stronger ones attention all the time.

Not sure if they are eating enough though


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Hmm,...I'm not sure why but for some reason I can't see the pics. Not sure if this is a problem with my computer or something with your pics. I don't seem to have issues with other pics dough. I like to give sexing a shot but I do need pics for that :wink:


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## poorgirl (Nov 1, 2009)

Try these links:

http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu27 ... G_0921.jpg

http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu27 ... G_0897.jpg

Does anyone see the above Pics or is it just me seeing it? :lol:


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

I still can't see the pics


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## poorgirl (Nov 1, 2009)

Not sure why you can not see it..

Can any one else see it?


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Hi there,

I think it was an issue with my computer and after a clean up of the memory I can see the pics.

The fish in the top pic is almost certainly a male. The second is not visible but it might turn out to be a female. Like I wrote skinny fish are hard to sex and there two defenately need to gain weight. Unfortunately Bolivians are often to long in the lfs and skinny fish is the result. I remember Blair bought his skinny fish and after a couple of months it grew out to a gorgeous large and strong colored male.

I suggest to feed the fish some good qualety flake or small discus pellets like Tetra discus or from NLS. They also need protein rich foods to beef up more. Frozen foods are fine for that and artemia an bloodworms are a good choice. I suggest to do 3 small feeds a day until they look like the fish from the profile section. Don't feed to much bloodworms at once and alway's feed them, along with an other food. To much bloodworms can couse gas build up in the intestines. You also need to check their poo. Is it whitish and stringy they might have a health issue. If it looks normal and dark don't worry and they be fine. Try to keep the water clean as well and I suggest 2 times a week 50% water change. Skinny fish are more suscepteble for illnesses and clean water helps them to grow faster. Once the fish have normal proportions again you can go back to your normal routines and 1 or 2 times a day feeding will be fine. When they are to a healthy weight again I'm convinced it will be much easier to sex them.

Feel free to ask and It would be nice if you keep us posted.

Ruurd


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## poorgirl (Nov 1, 2009)

Thanks Dutch Dude!

After these few days, the 2nd fish seem to have peak up a bit and is fighting back. Have seen them lip locking a few times and gills flaring. Not sure if thats courtship between male and female or just fighting between two males.


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

Dutch Dude -- you seem to know your bolivians. I have five wonderful ones in a QT right now, ready to move to a 58 gallon 36" heavily planted tank with tetras, cories and a BN. Is five a good number for this size tank?


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Poorgirl. Good to hear the other fish start to fight back. Two is a dificult number imo but it can work out. Important is to have plenty of shelter and preferable a densely planted tank with some open spots for feeding and to create a spawning site. The lip looking flaring is normal for the specie. This way they establish a picking order and this behaviour is also part of the breeding behaviour. At this point is will be hard to tell witch one is going on in your tank. Some short spurts is also normal but constant chasing is often a bad sign of 2 fish that don't get along or one fish being to weak to stand up. Good to hear you see improvement. Now keep the water clean and keep feeding protein rich and good qualety foods (frozen and pellet). I'll bet they look very diferent within 6 to 12 weeks from now. :wink:

Hollyfish,....yeah I seem to know a few things abouth the specie but I defenately don't know it all. Blair and I wrote an article and I mentioned a footprint each Bolivian needs to build up a territory (article section). I also wrote abouth territorial markers. Those are two very important things if it comes to how many Bolivians you can keep in a tank. I mentioned a save number in the article but if someone is more experienced and keeps them in a heavy planted tank the stock level can be higher. For example I kept 9 adult Bolivians in a very densely planted tank with lots of small parts of driftwood, small and large species of Echinodorus and numerous open spots in between the plants with flat pebbles for spawning. The tank was a 50 gallon with a footprint of 16 x 40 inch. Thats abouth the limit if it comes to size of territories. To other people I would advice 5 to 7 in a tank that size. Keep in mind that the footprint is more important as the volume and the aqua scape determines the size of the territory of each Bolivian. To answer your question,.....if your tank does have a footprint of 14x36 or larger and is densely planted, you will be perfectly fine with 5 Bolivians. Ooh and one other thing,......Bolivians show much more funny and interesting social behaviour in a group.

Ruurd


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

I got five because I'd read in that sized group you get good social interaction. I was afraid to go higher because of the limitations of my footprint. For now, they are in a 30 gallon QT alone and they are fabulous. They came as a group from the LFS, so for all I know they were raised together. There is no serious aggression at all.


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## Hike (Nov 10, 2009)

Dutch Dude - Thanks for the great info. I have a fairly well planted 40 gallon with a 16"x 36" foot print and just 2 Bolivians(other smaller fish as well). I always assumed that more would be a problem but apparently I'm incorrect. Would introducing new bolivians to this tank be a problem if the current two have had the run of the tank for a long while?


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Hollyfish,....good to hear your group is very peaceful. Adult Bolivians can quarel over territories but nothing serious from that and no damages at all. If there are problems with Bolivians and aggression is is always in tanks with the wrong aquascape (to open tanks with lack on territorial markers) or when 2 or 3 Bolivians are in one tank. Sometimes 4 is doable but 5 or more is a good number,....if the footprint and tanksize (boiload) can handle that number.

Hike,....your tank can hold 5 Bolivians. You do need the aquascape I wrote about to make them happy. In general what goes for the real geophagus species also works for the Bolivians. In nature they live in famely like groups and imo they should live in small groups in our tanks as well. The only exception is a proven stable PAIR (thats a real pair and not only male and female). But even a pair might give issues and a male can chase a female to death when he is ready to spawn and she isn't. I have never had issues with such behaviour and I have always kept Bolivians in groups (for over 10 years). In a group atention is never focused on one fish and spread among the group. Sometimes fish have harmles quarrels over territory and 10 minutes later they swimm side by side. It is realy like a soap and can be a lot of fun to watch their social behaviour. In my expirience Bolivians realy are best kept in small groups. You can check the BRC thread and it holds a huge amount of info.


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## Hike (Nov 10, 2009)

Thanks again. I did start browsing the BRC thread and site yesterday and today. This now gives me a reason to set up the Qt tank and find some more Bolivians.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Good to hear Hike. Bolivians are realy fun fish, are small, perfect for community tanks, are hardy, and their social behaviour in groups is funny and interesting. :fish: :thumb:


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