# Kitumba Spawning Log



## Charles

I just measured my fish. I always thought my largest female was 4-5". I was wrong. She is measured from nose to tail at 6.5"... Now the alpha male is at least 2" more than her so he is about 8.5-9"

Well, the reason why I pull them out is that there were spawning going on. She dropped her tube 2 days ago. And this afternoon, she did lay her eggs. Here is a picture of her holding.









This is almost exactly a year after I bought the group from Steve Perryman. She has total including this time 5 spawns. The earlier 4 spawns were not full term. She split her eggs from 2-10days. So after a 5 minutes debate inside my head, I decided to strip her. Here is a picture of her eggs.









I crushed a few eggs cause my female jumped out from my hand while I was striping her and damage a few eggs. And some eggs appear to have some white stuffs on them. They are not fungus. They are actually some string like stuffs attaching the eggs while she lays them. They do come over after a gentle rocking back and fore in the water.

Well, I still have to take the damaged eggs out but I don't want to bother the fish anymore tonight. I will take them out first thing in the morning. What an exciting night.

Wish me Luck, I will keep updating this thread.


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## suppadabest

wow good luck.....and this is my first time seeing front eggs out of the mom's mouth


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## Charles

The eggs are actually quite big... like the size of a corn.

And I just realize mom is still holding some eggs in her mouth. I am going to let her have those. A good way to see if she is going to hold full term.

Eggs count at 15 per tumbler.


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## Manus

Good luck with those eggs!!

I've had a group of wild Bismarks for about 10 months now and like you I have always let the females hold them and they end up spitting or swallowing them. 7 spawns I've been patient!! I've decided next time they get stripped and tumbled.


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## Charles

this group i have consists of 2m/3f wc. this is the 7 spawns of the group. largest female spawned 5 times total n 1 for eah of the other females. none held full term so i striped this time.

i have a floating container in the tank when i strip the mom. then i just pour the eggs with the water into the tumblers.


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## senorh

good luck with the eggs.

senorh


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## Charles

Looks like mom lost all her eggs in her mouth again. It was only a few left though.

Eggs count #1 tumbler 13, #2 tumbler still at 15 July16 morning.


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## Gandalfslair

I am crossing my fingers for you Charles that the tumbling will be seamless...Congrats!


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## rusthebuss

Man i need to get my kigoma to breed but i have 1 male and a female. I need to get some more females. How do you strip them and how long do you wait. Have you been bitten while stripping them?


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## Charles

I waited a day to strip... just hold the fish firm upsidedown, use ur nail to open the lower lips and eggs will come out.


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## Charles

2 tumblers have 15/15 eggs to start

July 17

tumbler #1 = 9 eggs
tumbler #2 = 13 eggs

On the other hand, my smallest female measured at 5.5"+ is holding this morning... Still deciding if I want to strip her. This is her second hold since july 2004


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## Charles

Finally got a tumber and return home around 5pm. Realize the female (the one with eggs) 's mouth is very small compare to this morning. I strip her right away and gotten only 8 eggs. Oh well... perhaps the male is too tired for all this spawning. Or she just released some or swallow some.

Got 3 tumbler going now.
#1 has 9 eggs. I can see half of them starting to show a line in the middle.
#2 has 13 eggs. Some as #1... half of them starting to show a line in the middle
#3 has 8 eggs. Still very fresh from her mouth. And no white on any of them.


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## Charles

Here are the pictures.

3 tumbler with the first 2 from the left by the largest female, and the right one (biggest tumbler) by the smallest female.










Close up on the eggs of the middle tumbler 13/15 eggs









In this close up, you can see one of the egg is developing a line in the middle. And you can also see the end part of 2 eggs.









Picture of the left tumbler. 9/15 eggs


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## frank1rizzo

Very cool!!! Keep the pics comming.


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## Gandalfslair

Agree with Frank...great shots!


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## ben_cichlid

Congrats and best of luck Charles....hope to see some Kitumba babies soon...


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## Charles

July / 18

After the filter died last night, I have to take it all out and clean it. All the dirt and junks and craps spilled into the main tank. I am not sure this will affect the eggs but it sure seems that way tonight.

As of today

Tumbler #1 went from 9 to 6 /15 eggs
Tumbler #2 went from 13 to 8 / 15 eggs

Total 8 bad eggs in a day. And all of those were looking good before the filter died.

Tumbler #3 is still 8 / 8 eggs and they are pretty fresh... I guess too soon to know. However, 3 out of 8 eggs developed a hole in the middle of the egg.

Not a good day in my tank today..


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## senorh

sorry to hear about your loss.

Senorh


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## suppadabest

sorry to hear that...


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## Charles

July / 19

Now I can tell the different between unfertile egg and fungus attack. With 10 bad eggs per tumbler, some were attacked by fungus, some were just unfertile, it will be more clear on the next time. Anyway, here is the report at day 4.

Tumbler #1 5 /15 eggs
Tumbler #2 5 / 15 eggs
Tumbler #3 7 / 8 eggs

At the very least, this little spawning can provide us some information about the 3 tumblers I am using. They all seem good for tumbling eggs...


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## Charles

July 20 2005

Tumbler #1 starts with 15 eggs on July/15/2005, and now it has 4 eggs remain. All were doing good except that one egg already showing tail and head has a small fungus growing at the other side of the egg. To ensure it won't spread, I took the remaining 3 eggs out and put them in tumbler #2. I thought this fungus will spread and kill the egg. But that little one is a figther. I can see that its tail is still moving and fungus changing from big to small to midium size now. My hope is not high for it though.

Tumbler #2 starts with 15 eggs on July/15/2005, and now it has 5 eggs remain. Some are showing tail. Some are showing the stage before the tail appears. The egg will start to change shape; started with an egg shape and slowly deforming into like a corn shape with a line in the middle. Then one end usually the smaller end will change color with black dots appearing. Then it starts to show the blood line. And then the tail and head will appear.

Here are a couple pictures.



















Tumbler #3 starts with 8 eggs on July/17/2005- it has 3 eggs remain. I can see 2 of the eggs are having the deform shape or stage. 1 still remains egg shape. Usually, this mean it is a bad eggs.


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## Fin

Congratulations Charles looks like your on your way to raising some F1 Kitumba fry .Remember that i have some F1 Moba that we can do an exchange :wink:


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## Gandalfslair

Charles,

Do you feel that by stripping early you reduced your success rate or do you think it would have been worse, let's say, if you added a week before stripping...I know you don't know for sure, but what does your gut tell you?

(Good information for those who haven't stripped a Zaire yet)

Still crossing those fingers for the remainder....


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## Charles

To tell you the truth, I would still strip on the first day.

Remember, this is only true about my fish. I am not saying every fish is the same...
Reason, my fish lost eggs anywhere from 2-10days before in 6 spawns. I striped about 30 eggs from 1 female day 1, and 8 eggs from the other female in day 2. So far, it looks like I lost 22 eggs from the first female, and 7 eggs from the second. Most of the eggs I lost is deal to unfertile. I can tell now since I watch them grow every morning and night.

The unfertile eggs actually desolve in water even with a very very soft touch. I believe this is how a female can tell if the egg is unfertile in her mouth. A gentle rolling in her mouth will cause the eggs to break. So, what about fungus, will that also spread easily with the limited room in the female's mouth. I would think so. I divided all the eggs with 3 tumblers and this seem to have very little fungus problem. So far, I can clearly tell that only 5 eggs death was deal to fungus.

By striping later, you are getting the end result of those bad eggs already been taken out by the female. I would not think with my case this time will make that much of the different. Perhaps worest cause I might get my remainer 8 eggs to break or swallow accidentally by the female.

I know that most people strip after 5 days. I can tell you that after 5 days, most unfertile eggs are gone by then. So, you will most likely get a 90% survival rate. So, it is really up to you. I would continue to strip if I want ****. If not, I will let the female to hold.


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## ben_cichlid

Congrats Charles, looks like finally you are getting some Kitumba fries


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## Manus

Awesome pics and writing Charles. Thanks!...

My females must of been reading over my should as I talked about them because one of them spawned 8) 26 eggs! I broke one 8(

I'm tumbling them hopefully I'll get good results.

Good luck with your remaining eggs!!!


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## Charles

July 24 2005

Time for another update. I have combine all 3 tumblers eggs together. I have total 8 left. On July 22 2005, I can tell the stomach is forming. I can see the silver dot in between the baby fish and the egg sack. And today, I can swear I see blue color on their little eyes and heads. So far so good. Only thing I can pick wrong is one of the egg looks to me developing very slowly compare to others. It still has the bright red blood dot at the end of the egg sack.

Here is another mistake you can learn from me  I paid so much attendion at these babies, I forgot I had 5 sandies ****, few sandies eggs in another tumbler in another tank, and 2 holding female sandies. Well, I only have 1 sandis fry left... Both mom not holding, tumbler eggs when all died, everyone but one of the **** went dead by hunger and poor water quality.

I will get some picture up later on tonight.


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## Charles

July 24 2005

Update pictures


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## chris4984

Beautiful sight to behold. I can't wait to see the whole development.


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## Charles

Charles said:


> July 24 2005
> Only thing I can pick wrong is one of the egg looks to me developing very slowly compare to others. It still has the bright red blood dot at the end of the egg sack.


July 25 2005

Just as I suspected, the slow develop egg with the blood dot starting to get fungus right at that red dot. I am not sure what to do about this. I know the chance for this fry to survive is low if I dont do anything. If I add meth blue, I am not sure if it will affect the other.

I already separated that egg in another tumbler.


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## ben_cichlid

Charles, are you keeping the bag one in a separate tank or same tank...wonder if fungus can travel by water to the other breeder box if you have them in the same tank...
So you still have not added the methylene blue ? Are the remaining ones free of red dots ?


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## frank1rizzo

3 days and no update 

How are the little guys doing?


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## Charles

Oh, i was doing some pictures today... planning to upload and update tonight...


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## Charles

July 28 2005

The bad egg is still there. The fungus has grow smaller, but it is still there. The egg sack was having 2 craters closer to the fungus. I thought it for sure will die in the morning. But today, the craters disappear and it still is swimming.

All the other eggs are doing fine. It started to show some stripes in the body today. And they have blue eyes.

Can


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## Manus

Very cool! Congrats 8)


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## Charles

Today, the one fry that I separated with the rest which has a small fungus grow on the opposite side of the egg died. It was interesting cause I notice and practice and gain some experience on it.

3 days ago, the fungus growth size was only like a needle point big. So it is very small. It is very hard to notice but it is there. 2 days ago, over night, the fungus grew to 1/4 inch long hanging from the egg. The egg sack was definitely smaller and I assume the fungus is taking what it needs from the egg. I was afraid the fish is not going to make it. So, I took it out and carefully remove the fungus as close to the egg as possible but not completely remove it. Then I put it back to the tumbler. I did this in the afternoon. By the way, the fungus dissolve and break very easily. Cutting tool is not required. I did look at it at night before I turn off the light and sleep. In the morning when I checked on the ****, the fungus grew almost back to the orginal size. Then I know the fish is not going to make it. I went out and got some meth blue and still no help. Well, it is dead today.

I wish I have some picture of it but I was too worry and also busy... But my description is pretty accurate of what happen.

The other 7 **** in the main tank is doing good. The stripes are showing nicely now. They are swimming up and down the tumbler. The york sack is still there so i give it another few days before I take them out and start feeding.

Pictures will come later.


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## cichlidgeek345

hows the fry doin? congrats btw, not easy raising fry from egg in a tumbler.

i threw all my tumblers away and now use a mason jar or specimen container floating in the tank with an airline. my hatch rate has exponentially increased. may be worth practicing on your other species to fine tune the technique before trying it on your kitumbas tho.

your little tumba's look great charles!

keep us "posted" :lol:

geek


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## Charles

Can you show me in a picture please?


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## Duarte101

Hey Charles wats up i love ur breeding log could i see some pics of wat they look like now???? i wish u all the best and i also wanna see cichlidgeek345 cichlid raising masonjar... i have learned alot about Frontosas and i hope to get me own


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## Charles

This picture is taken on Augest 7 2005.


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## cichlidgeek345

http://wiscichlidforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=957

here is a post by silversurfer employing my container floating technique for raising his eureeka red fry. he used a gladware container with a air stone, there are many different possibilities to this method, for example, using a lift tube (a piece of clear rigid tubing just like that used on your tumbler) drill a hole to fit an airline inside the tube. a company named lustar that went out of business a few years back makes a specimen container that is about the size of a coffee can made out of clear plastic, it has two 'handles' that hang on the side of the tank. these are normally used for moving fish from one tank to another and observing those fish inside it. some places still may have a few left even though they went out of business. stock up.

basically what i do is take that specimen container. fill it almost to the top with water (about 1 inch from the top) and float the container inside the tank. floating in the tank keeps the temperature stable. i take a 4-6 inch piece of rigid tubing 1 inch in diameter and drill a hole in the side to put the airline through. i place the tube with the airline into the specimen container at a diagonal angle. as the air bubbles raise out of the tube, water is pulled along up the tube with it. the result is that the water will be slowly spurting out the top of the 1 inch lift tube. this gives you a perfect tumbler where your fish can sit on a solid plastic bottom (of the specimen container) without the risk of developing fungus by being exposed to tank water consistently.

while the eggs are still eggs, and do not show visible signs of heads and tails. chlorinated water (yes straight from the tap no water conditioner) can be used to perform partial water changes twice a day. the chlorine in the water will stifle fungus growth. once the heads and tails are visible you are going to want to stop using the dechlorinated water as it will at that point pose a risk of burning the gills of the fry.

before the gills have developed the chlorine does not pose a risk to anything but fungus development..

i'll attempt to upload a picture of the specimen container/ lift tube contraption, if i succeed it will be my first picture posted on cf, i seem to be cursed with anti photo posting syndrome.

HTH,

geek


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## Charles

Aug 22 2005

**** are doing well even after a 4 days vacation... (got a good friend that comes and feeds fish) They are eating and swimming nicely. They are already trying to show who is the boss at this age. I put them in a 10 gallon on Aug 10. They still had a little egg sack but I want to start feed before the egg sack is gone. By the way, they lost their egg sack altogether at Aug 15 2005 exactly a month after they are born.

To re-cap... Here is a shot of mother and father.

















Here are a few pictures of the swimming ****. Pictures are taken on Aug 22 2005.


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## Gandalfslair

Great pics and fry Charles...


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## ben_cichlid

Wow, these babies grow fast Charles  They got great color already...


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## cichlidgeek345

looks great charles, congrats on the successful spawn, always nice to see what we all put so much time into these beautiful fish for.

keep us posted on future spawns, this type of thread is definately a treat for any whom have put time into fronts without success and need a little help along the way.

great thread, and nice fry

geek


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## Charles

Thank you for the kind words.


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## Charles

September 14 2005
The **** are about 1


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## Charles

Oh yeah, they are already trying to eat this guy too...

Enatiopus Melanogenys


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## ben_cichlid

Very nice pics Charles, they are fat  That last pic is cool


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## frontosa_guy_dan

awesome man! congrats poppa


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## Gandalfslair

Very cool Charles 8)


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## Addicted_2_Africans

Awesome! Keep up the great work on raising those beauties. 8)


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## FrontFreak123

Hi Charles,I just saw this topic and congrats on the fry,they're really cute!But I have a question.Do you have to put stripped eggs in a special container or can you just put them in a ten gallon with alot of lighting to keep them warm,I never have had any fry but I was wondering incase I would be in this situation such as yourself.Thanks.


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## Charles

I don't think they are like chicken eggs that need something to keep them warm. They do require the same temperature as the community tank. What they need is water movement so they won't get fungus.

I put mine egg tumbler in the community tank. Some other ppl will use a 10 gallon so they can also treat the water with meth. blue to reduce fungus. It is up to you.


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## FrontFreak123

Okay,just wondering,thanks!


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## Charles

That was a short answer. I did not mean any offend...

Anyway, you can buy or self-make egg tumbler. You can even use a floating tank with a air line to make water movement. I don't think light does much unless you are using a high high watt light fixture. I read somewhere that fungus don't grow with intense light. In general, 77-79 degree is best.

If you have your first spawn, you might want to wait and see what happen. Usually, they will lose the first time, however, I had a burundi female which hold the first time and every time till now and she was only 3" when she started. I lost 6 spawns before I decided to stripe her eggs during 1 year time. So, you might want to wait.

Wait my log from the beginning, you can see how I stripe her eggs... pretty much self-explain everything.


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## FrontFreak123

Ok,thanks,and I thought your answer befor was fine too.  They should've picked you as moderator,you seem pretty knowledgable,at least for Frontosa Fanatics!


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## deseyered

Woo Hoo Charles!!!

And you can see the resemblance to Dad in those pictures. That first fry definitely has Dad's eyes.

I really love the way you've taken the time to take pictures of each stage of you're fry's growth from the tumbler to free swimming lil guys.

Again: Congratulations!


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## GAF

Wow super nice fry, and great pix too.


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## Charles

Oct 1 2004

**** are a bit over 1" mark. I got a jumper just the other day so I am down to 6 ****. They are fine, showing excellent color, and nice stripes. I was worry that perhaps they will not have as nice stripes as the parents but I was wrong. At the stage, I can see the mask forming. They are for sure showing different face mask than say Burundi **** at this age.

The only different they are from their parents are they are not shy at all. They will come out to the surface and eat. They will not get skittish when you come close. And THEY ARE EATING MY XENO. **** in the same tank with them. I have 10 xeno half an inch **** there and I am down to only 7.


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## Charles

these **** are well over 1" mark. They are swimming in my 75 gallon with juv. faoi, adult sandies, and a pair of zebra mloto brevis. They survive quite well. And they are fast enough to get to food. Here is a couple pictures of them.

Picture taken on Oct 07 2005

















Here is the male. And the female is holding again. She is the same mother of those ****. But I am letting her hold this time.

Picture taken on Oct 13 2005


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## Charles

Nov 02 2005

More **** pictures. They are over the 1.5" mark.

This is the only picture taken with flash.









Here are some without flash.

































Here is a picture of the tank... well half the tank.


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## ben_cichlid

Wow they have come a long way, great color, very nice job Charles


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## Addicted_2_Africans

Awesome!


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## dauph

Charles, if you pass near Qu


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## Charles

I can ship  if you want to wait cause you have to wait for the batch in the female's mouth waiting to be taken out this weekend.


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## rat375

Thanks for the wonderful pics!


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## Charles

Nov 05 2005

My alpha female finally hold full term. This is her #8 spawn. #1-6 spawn, I let her hold and she lost all. I striped 30 eggs on #7 spawn and only 7 survive out of 30 eggs. Here is a link for the spawning log.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... hp?t=87722

And since I got some **** from her already. I decided to let her hold the #8 spawn. And this time, I found 10 **** in her mouth on actually 28 days. She spawned on Oct 09 2005, and I striped her on Nov 05 2005.

Babies in the bucket









Since they sill have a bit of egg sack left, I put them in a tumbler for a bit.
Here is a picture of them in the tumbler.


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## Addicted_2_Africans

Hey Charles, from your experiences with fronts, do you believe having a dim low light tank encourages fronts to breed more so than a heavily lit tank like mines? If so, I'll have to change some things around. :?:


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## Charles

From my experience...

Not feeding for a week - does not help. They will spit/swallow whenever they want. I actually see the holding female eats with her eggs. She will roll them and push them way down in the porch inside the mouth and then she will pick at the very small piece of food. In this spawn, I feed them as schedule; 5 days a week, evening time, and 2 days no food.

Crushed coral pieces - changed to crushed coral sand. I found pieces of sharp edges inside the mom's mouth with the eggs before. One less problem to deal with.

Powerhead gone - I have noticed that my alpha (every change he breed) he will pick the part with the least water movement.

I did everything and each time those females were not holding full term. So, this time, I follow what Big Jon was suggesting - to keep NO light at all. I did not turn on the aquarium light at all for the whole 28 days; with excepting of picture taking which is max 10 minutes. And it helps.

I don't know rather it is the age or the experience of motherhood or the NO light concept helps, but it did.

As of now, the smallest female is having her tube down. This will be her third time spawning in my tank. I will keep updating...

BTW, I don't use light unless friends want to see the fish.

I dont know if i answer your question, but i hope my log will help you.


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## Charles

Nov 6 2005

This entry is for the smallest female. I mention earlier that her tube was down a couple days ago. This is her third spawn. She just finished spawning with the alpha today. Her last spawning was on July 17 2005 and I striped her on the same day. So her turn around time is 112 days. I will do the same for her as for the alpha female - letting on hold and keep all the light off as much as possible. I do keep my schedule feeding (5 days a week once a day) and water changes (once a week 20-25%).

Will get a picture of her when she is settle.


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## Charles

Nov 07 2005

As expected, she lost almost all her eggs. Her mouth is just a bit bigger and only notice maybe max 4 eggs in there. This is just like her last spawn. On her last spawn, I notice her mouth was very small a few hours later so I striped 8 eggs from her. During her last spawning, I stopped counting at egg # 25 so I know she had a good amount of eggs laid... None of her eggs survive in the tumbler during her last spawn. At this moment, I would not strip her this time. See if she actually are going to hold even with a hand full of eggs.


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## Big Jon

Sounds like she is spawning by herself Charles if none of the eggs are fertile.

Jon


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## Charles

I saw the alpha doing his job with her on both times. I do however lost a good number of eggs to the fungus. But I am sturbborn about using med. in my main tank.

On the side note, she is still holding wiht a small mouth full.


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## Charles

Dec 01 2005

I have not updated for a while. Smallest female lost all her eggs. This is her third spawn since July 2004. Better luck next time.

Here is an update on the 2 batch of **** from the alpha male 9" and the largest female 6.5" in the tank
.
The 6 **** born on July 15 2005 (eggs not ****) are now pushing 2" They are pigs and not skittish at all. All 6 of them have very nice solid stripes and nice blue on them. You can look at the earlier pictures and decide for yourself.

The 10 **** born on Oct 9 2005 (eggs not ****) are now almost 1". I have a few pictures of them. All of them also have solid stripes. I so far did not see any white spots on them at all. No deforms either.

Both batches are from the same parents. First batch is stripe from day 1 and second batch is held full term.

This is the only picture with flash









These are pictures without flash


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## iamfrontosa

cool.. !!! I m getting them !


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## GaNgStA123

can ppl plz explain to me what is float and does fronts spwan alot ???


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## Charles

my kitumba spawns around 89-112 days apart.

Float = trapped air inside fish causing fish to "float"...


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## GaNgStA123

hey charles wut are those little worms or lines in your fish tank ??? is kinda like worms that i use to have.


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## Charles

those are just airbubbles, not worms


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## GaNgStA123

hey charles do u still have the fries if yes do u still sell them and do u have any more burundi fries ??? thxz


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## Charles

I sold all the 10 ****... I am keeping 6 though... at this moment, I don't have any zaire for sale. I don't have any other variants anymore, just Kitumba Zaire.


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## iamfrontosa

sorry.. me and another guy bought all 10 from Charles. Nice fish Charles./ thx a lot.


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## GaNgStA123

o but chalres when u have more kitumba zaire can u save some for me .thxz and u 've been a big help and i am getting a new tank and i hpe u can help me out


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## Charles

Will do.


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## gatohoser

Any1 know how to subscribe to a thread without actually posting? I just wanna follow the progress. Cool stuff and good luck, Charles.


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## Charles

I think you have to have at least 1 post in the thread to get the automatic email...


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## Charles

Jan 04 2006
Time for update of how the **** are doing...

Here are the pictures of the first spawn group. They are spawned on July 15 2005 (I used the word spawned cause they are at egg forms, not stripe as ****). I kept these 6 cause they are the first **** I have with my WC Kitumba group. I have in total 2 males / 3 females in a 125 gallon tank with 1 bushynose pleco. I picked one of them out and it is at 2.5"


























The following pictures are for the later batch that the same female and male spawned on Oct 9 2005. I let her hold and she did full term with 10 ****.










This picture is taken on Dec 14 2005 and this one is at 1.25"









I do not have this batch anymore. 6 of them went to Iamfrontosa and the other 4 went to another person in Calgary.

I hope all of you enjoy the updates. I will keep this up for the 6 I am keeping. So far, these 6 are very socialable... They love to come up and eat and right up to the front of the tank with lots and lots of light. I used a Power Compact 135watt 50/50 on my 75 gallon grow out tank. And they don't seem to be affected at all. Eat very well. They don't care much about the types of food. Very different than the WC group/parents.


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## GaNgStA123

hey charles can u tell me how to find the threads that we have typed in cause every time i typed one the next day i look at it i can't find it lol


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## gatohoser

Click on Discussion at the top of any page and then when the page comes up there will be all the different forums. Above and to the right of all these it says view all your posts or something similar to that. Click that to see all threads you have posted in.


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## GaNgStA123

thxz


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## Charles

Jan 11 2006
My largest female spawned today. This will be her number 10 spawns. I striped the number 8 spawn on July 15 2005 on the first day and ended up with 6 **** and they are almost 3


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## iamfrontosa

good luck charles. its always interesting to read your log.
ps; the fry are doing extreamly well


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## Charles

you can start your frontosa growing log too  nice to see them all growing and you can record the grow size every 3 months. It could be a good guide line here.


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## Charles

Jan 14 2006

Not a very good day in my frontosa tank. The female that is holding has a very very small mouth. So, I decided to stripe to see if there is even anything. I have gotten 2 eggs out from her; one looks good and the other one has a couple white dots on it. Usually, that is a sign of it going to get fungus... I thought she was going to hold for me just like the last time... Well, better luck on the next female, I guess.

I will update on these 2 eggs... pictures will follow after a day or so...


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## iamfrontosa

keep it coming charles


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## Charles

Down to 1 egg...


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## iamfrontosa

bummer.. next batch i guess


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## GaNgStA123

sry to hear about the lose better luck next time


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## Charles

Jan 17 2006
Here is the picture of the lonely egg...


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## GaNgStA123

charles can i have that egg anyways for a price ???


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## Charles

Why would you want to buy an egg?

Anyway, second female just spawned... will update with pictures later on... But interesting behavior on this spawning, the smallest female actually stealing and eating those eggs while the spawning female laying them out... The alpha did not seem too concern about it...


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## Charles

Jan 18 2006

11 eggs from the second female. Looks to me so far that at least 3 of them are bad... I still keep my fingers cross...


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## GaNgStA123

hope u luck !!!


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## iamfrontosa

GaNgSta123 is in line for your fish  good choice man.


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## Charles

Jan 21 2006
Well, after 3 days, only 5 eggs survive. I am still hoping that these 5 will make it but the way the alpha male spawned with this female, I don


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## Charles

Jan 22 2006

All eggs from the second female are gone. I don't think the male fertile them at all. It is interesting cause same thing happened to the smallest female. The alpha ignores the two smaller females. And both females also spawned a couple days after the large female. I have never seen them spawning without seeing the large one spawn. Anyway, better luck next time...

As for the lonely egg, IT IS DEAD. I xfer it to another tumbler cause I need the good one for the newly eggs. I thought with the little head and tail, it won't get fungus. But boy, was I wrong...

Oh well, another 90 days before the next spawns...


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## GaNgStA123

hope u have better luck next time.


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## Charles

Feb 28 2006

Here is an update of the 6 F1 Kitumba **** I keep from the WC group. This fish is over 3" long at this point. They were born July 2005. Very very friendly... Will not shy away from food, fingers, etc...


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## tsutsing

those are some nice Kitumba Juvie...Looking good Charles :thumb:


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## MAGNA

Thank you very much Charles, this is a great topic.
I wonder your water parameters? PH, KH and GH? Do you use any chemicals?
If you dont use any powerheads, how do you clean the substrate?
Thank you again.


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## Charles

well, I know my ph is at 7.6... no gh and kh information for you. I don't know and haven't tested it for over a year.

As for powerhead, I don't think they are supposed to use for cleaning the sand. If you mean using your powerhead to blow the dirt towards the filter intake, I would not recommand it. My alpha male will only spawn at place with the least water flow rather it is out in the open, in the cave, or on top of a rock. I took my powerhead out long time ago. And I move both filters output to the very end of the tank so the middle of the tank has no current at all. And the most recent spawn (last week) happened in the middle of the tank in an open area. I also have 1 cave right below one of the filter output but the male or female did not choose there to spawn. And with over 12 spawns with them, they do choose the place with the least current.

As for cleaning the sand, I sigon it every week while I am doing the water change once a week. The trick to not suck up the sand is to get the sigon a feet taller than your tank. The sand usually would not travel that high. But then again, I have crushed coral sand which is not as fine as silica sand.

I don't use chemical at all. I do add salt and once a while baking soda.


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## iamfrontosa

good looking guys charles ! my fish are doing extreamly well also.


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## Charles

Let me see some of the newer pictures. I think they look even better than this group... They did have more color than this group.


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## Slider393

man that was a great log. thanks for taking the time to note and picture all that.


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## suppadabest

awesome!...I've been following this log, but left off some time ago..but great to see them all grown up


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## Addicted_2_Africans

Those juvies are looking mighty fine! Keep it up Charles! :thumb:


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## Charles

April 6 2006

Not much happening. I have been waiting for the largest female to spawn since I can see her egg mass is quite big in her stomach.

Besides that, the 12 babies from the middle female has been good and health. There isn't any imperfect stripes like the first and second batch. I am pretty lucky for that.

I will also record how the first 6 juv. are doing. I am planning to mix them with the non-related WC male and see how the bloodline will end up. It will be a long process but it will be interesting to find out.


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## tirzo13

Thanks for the ongoing updates Charles.
great thread..


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## Charles

July 18 2006

3 days pasted the 1 year term. Those 6 juv. (egg forms and tumble since day 1 on July 15 2005) I have from my wild group is up for a measurment. I don't have pictures so you have to take my word for it... I miss some feeding. I believe in about 3" of the fish, I stop feeding them twice a day... Sometimes they go a couple of days without feeding... But oh well, I do that to all my other ****; burundi and Mpimbwe but they still get a bit larger than my Kitumba...

The biggest one measured at 4.5"
The smallest one measured at 3.25"

The rest are all 4"


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## snowdiver

How about an update on what you have finally figured out on dealing with eggs fungus. Do you still add chlorinated tap water? What sort of tumbler have you settled on? Is there anything you can do to stop a fungus dot from growing? Thanks for this great thread.

Gary


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## gazuk

hi guys thats cool i did the same sort of thing with the severums i had. but it was a bit easyer.

all i had to do was remove the breeding cone and keep the eggs airated and they hatched.

do u have to airate frontosa eggs in the tumblers or not?

thanks gaz


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## Charles

You have to make sure the eggs are moving. If they are moving, chance of them being attacked by fungus is very low. I would tumble them a bit harder the first 5 days or so... Once they get heads and tails out, you can slow down the air-flow.

One word of advise, if you have the metal screen to hold the eggs, do not tumble them hard, or bonuce... I lost a whole lot of heads/tails cuase they all have the blooding wounds on the bottom... I am suspecting that the metal screen was too rough...

Anyway, I will try to post some pictures of the orginal **** that I have later. But I ended up from 7, then 6 (1 jumped), then 5 (jumped again)... I think I have 2 males 5" now , 2 females 3 and 4", and 1 unsure...


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## gazuk

how do u sex small fronts. heres a pic of the 2 i have

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r80/gazuk_01/pic10.jpg


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## Charles

There is a good article in the library section about sexing frontosa by Eric Glab.

Clcik Library, frontosa corner, how do I sex frontosa by Eric Glab...


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## gazuk

thanks ill check it out


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## Charles

I hope people are not bored with this... 

But here is a little update...

Jan 03 2007

The alpha male and the alpha female spawned again. This is the female that has be giving me **** in a batch of under 12 each time ( with an exception of me destroying 26 eggs on her last attend ). The following are a couple pictures of the parents.



















She laid 40 eggs on Jan 03 2007. I stripe on day 1 cause I always want to see how well the male does with his thing... Here is a picture of the eggs in the tumber in the main tank.










Jan 04 2007

36 eggs left... keeping finger cross


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## gazuk

thats really smart mate.good luck. :thumb:


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## Charles

Jan 05 2007

Another mistake that you can learn from me...

Well, I am pretty careful about taking bad eggs out. My method is to use 1 small bucket with a pouring mouth, and a tumble... The bucket is quite wide so I can pour the eggs in gently and just remove the bad eggs.... The pouring mouth is an essential tools to pour the eggs back in the tumble without rushing the eggs out or pouring it too hard into the tumbler... And I do all of pouring under water...

So, after I saw a few bad eggs (4 to be exact), I emptied the eggs from the tumbler chamber to the bucket. Careful separate the bad eggs and feed them to my frontosa below. And as I was pouring the eggs back slowly to the tumbler, I rushed too fast and 6 slipped out... And of course the frontosa were around feeding on them since they know everytime I check the tumbler, there will be food...

As a result, 26 eggs left. I can see some of them are starting to develop. You will notice a crack line half way down one side of the egg, and after a day, you will start to see some spots along side the line... There are still some eggs without that line, I will have to wait and see how those eggs will do...


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## tirzo13

Great updates again Charles.
you are a pro!

I pour my tumbler underwater also.
I have seen eggs fall to the bottom and get eaten.
I have also seen a couple of fry with a egg sack fall, not find them thinking they became food, then find them a week later when the egg sack was gone.

anyway, good luck with this spawn.
i'm giving up on my Kitumba, no holds past 3 days in over a year.
my male is huge, and my females are over 6 inches.
anyway, my mpimbwe are still earning their keep, getting me more zebra plecos!


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## Charles

Just stripe them, Tirzo13... I waited about a year and decided to stripe from now on... Can;t find any zebra up here


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## Charles

Jan 06 2007

Well, I was very busy today so I did not check on them till just now 8:30pm evening time... Was I shock... I quickly CAREFULLY emptied out the eggs in the bucket...

Out of the 26 eggs yesterday, 14 was unfertiled and starting to turn white, 1 was fertiled starting to show the crack and spots on the eggs BUT the back side of the egg has fungus grow... I quickly removed them and now I have 11 left.

10 of those 11 starting to show bloodlines. I am pretty sure those will develop. Now that leaves the 1 questionable egg there. It looks to be having the line developing but it is very little. If this is unfertiled, it will go bad tomorrow, I am pretty sure...

It is rewarding to see how those eggs develop. Everyday they look different and with more features on them... I wish I have a very very nice marco camera setup to show the differences...


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## Charles

Jan 08 2007

today is the magic number day #5. The last egg did not get fertiled. I lost another egg. I am down to 9 eggs but all of them showing wiggling tails now.

At this point, I always turn down the air flow a bit. I notice I will get a better result with a higher tumbling high flow in the beginning and slower air flow when I see heads/tails. My reason behind it is : 1) stronger airflow in the beginning will lessen the chance of fungus grow, 2) once they are wigglers, chance of fungus grow is way less, and 3) I have a bad experience with stronger airflow when the wigglers are rubbing on the base of tumbler too fast/hard. I can see the burst of blood vessels.


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## Charles

Jan 10 2007

I am battling with fungus. I already lost 1 to fungus. 8 little wigglers left and 2 already have a dot of fungus growing. I slow down the fungus by using fungus cure. It is a race against time now for those two wigglers. If they can absorb the eggsack faster, then they are ok. If the fungus grows, then those 2 will have to be fishfood.... I hate that happen...


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## oversweet10

Those the best closeups I have ever seen. :thumb: How exciting!! Congrats! Keep us posted on their development.


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## Charles

Jan 13 2007

The fungus got on to other good wigglers. I let one wiggler stayed in the tumbler overnight with a tiny fungus on the eggsack. In the morning, I was shocked to see many wigglers have fungus...

I quickly checked and notice this time, fungus was actually growing on the wigglers... I have to rmove the one with them and feed them (still alive) to the fish.

5 left...


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## oversweet10

I'm sorry to hear all of that. That's very frustrating. I know a breeder in Missouri that breeds 7 or 8 different kinds of Fronts. If you would like I could ask her about the fungus and see what she says? I myself just purchased a colony of 10 breeding 7 strip fronts so the breeding and fry is all still new to me. I hope the ones you have left all live and grown quickly. I have only bred yellow electrics myself and I strip the female about 3 days before she would supposeabley release them. They all have their yolk sacks but are swimming around really good. I put them in a small fry container, which is in my 15 gallon fry tank and they stay in there until their yolks are completely absorbed. I start feeding them NLS as soon as possible even though their sacks aren't absorbed. This makes them grow faster and stronger sooner. I don't know if fronts fry are anything like yellows but I thought I'd just let you know. Good luck with those babies and keep us posted!


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## Charles

I could always use meth. blue but I decided long time ago not to use chemicals like that.


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## Charles

Jan 20 2007

those 5 wigglers pull through. There is no more fungus attack. They are wiggling like mad in the tumbler now and they are showing the stripe pattern.

On another note, another female just spawned with the alpha male last night ( Jan 19 2007 ). She has been spawning by herself except this time. I was watching them... I am still trying to decide what to do (stripe her or not). This female has not produced **** before (spawned multi. times by herself).


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## Dave

I understand your situation Charles. I have three females that have spawned 2-3 times each, and always spit the eggs early. Each time I swear I will strip, and before I get to them the eggs are gone.


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## Charles

Jan 23 2007

Well, the smaller female who spawned at the later time has just lost all her eggs and this is day 4. So, I assume they were not fertiled eventhough I watched the male and her doing the thing. Well, better luck next time...

With the 5 in the tumbler of the bigger female spawned on Jan 03 2007, they are absorbing the sack real fast. They are almost ready to leave the tumbler. I will try to take a few pictures tonight. One sad note, there is one in there with really white body. I have noticed that the eggsack was not attached to the stomach. Let me explain a bit better, for the normal one, the eggsack should connected to the stomach, but this one is fish, transparent sack, then the eggsack. It is weird. I am not sure this one will make it but I will keep updating this.


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## Charles

Here is the picture...

Kind of sad if you do a first day to today's number...

Day 1










Day 20


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## Tanganyika Boy

hello, Charles

i noticed your initial is Charles LAM, ar u a Hong Kong people?

Can u pls post a full picture of your tank?


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## Charles

I was born in Macao but moved to San Francisco when I was real young. I am now living in Vancouver Canada...

Here is a full tank shot...


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## Tanganyika Boy

YOUR TANK Is wonderful :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


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## uclabruins

Charles said:


> I was born in Macao but moved to San Francisco when I was real young. I am now living in Vancouver Canada...
> 
> Here is a full tank shot...


charles,

great read. i haven't been on this site in a long time, but enjoyed your documentation of the spawns. what food(s) do you feed the fronts?


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## Charles

many many types...

fresh: shrimp, cod, sole, silverfish, smelt, herring, whatever I catch in the summer...
Frozen: mysis, bloodworm, BS, or whatever I prepare fresh food for frozen
Dry: krills, Omega1, cichlid pellet, soft/moist, flakes.


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## fish-photo-train

i have an stupid question?
what hapend if you do not stripp the eggs from the female?
and just let her have the full term with the eggs on her mouth.
untill she release them when they are ready to swimn


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## Charles

The female usually will hold full term, then release the babies. In the case of mine, it rarely happens so i have to take the eggs out.


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## fish-photo-train

you do not have another tank where you can place her with the eggs on her mouth alone so she can fell secure and relace them and then take her out and put her back on the tank with the other big fish.
and leave the little frontosa on the other tank pamper them etc
maybe she does not realease them because does not fell security for the babis
i do not have frontosas,but i do like them and i have notice with the fiskh i have if they do not fell secure they do not release the fry


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## Charles

the problem is not getting the mom to release her ****.

1) zaire frontosa in general has a bad reputation of holding full term.

2) re-introducing the mom back to the main tank can be difficult.


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## fish-photo-train

more dificult than cath her to stipp the eggs out of her mouth,and putting them on that little tummber or container you put the eggs on.
or is there a hiden dificulty that i do not know about?
i know is a lot of trouble to cath them but it will be only 2 times one to move her to another tank an the other to put her back.
vs.catching her to strip the eggs
riscking to damage the eggs at the time of of stripp them
and riscking them on the develop too.

have you try it this way,or is there some thing i have not consider,or do not about it.


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## Charles

I have tried that during all these years of breeding frontosa.

Catching her is not a problem. I catch them while they are sleeping with my hand. Stripping her is easy as well. All this depends on how much practice you have...

But re-introducing her back to the community while taking her out in a nursy tank for a period of time is risky. The alpha male or other females will think she is a new comer and will put a beating on her sometimes. Why risk it...


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## fish-photo-train

how big is your tank where you have the frontosas?


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## Charles

72" long 125 gallon tank.


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## fish-photo-train

could it be the size of the tank that make the other frontosas,do not acept back the one you were trying to put back on the tank,and make it riscky?
do you think they will act like that with a bigger tank?


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## Charles

It is "in general" hard to introduce new fish in the main tank.

If you want to discuss about general frontosa behavior, we can start a new thread. I don't want to go too much off topic from the spawning log.


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## CHIEF GR

Charles said:


> I waited a day to strip... just hold the fish firm upsidedown, use ur nail to open the lower lips and eggs will come out.


A LFS once told me that i should avoid handling the fish because it can destroy the slime coat. Is this true or *%#[email protected]^&*&


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## Charles

It is true. With a dry hand, you will do that. That is why I always always wet my hands first...


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## carlos-chile

charles

have you only fronts in your aquarium?

saludos


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## Charles

yes


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## dye2fish

I have Kitumba's also and have had no luck, can you send a pic of your tank and some good advise(3 males-13 inch,7inch and 6 inch also 7 females) Tank is bare do I need anything also is salt levels important??


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## Charles

What size tank do you have? Length? How long do you have them? Water temperature? Tankmates? Amount of light?

You might want to get rid of one male... And I know frontosa does spawn in bare tank, but I always believe with caves/rocks/ or even pvc pipe or pots, they will do better. The more comfortable they feel, the better chance for them to spawn...


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## dye2fish

I havr 2 tanks, 9o gallon each. One tank has 1 male and 4 females, water temp 78 - 79 the other tank has 2 males 3 feamales also the light is low and from 2 windows and one bar light at the top thats on about 4 hours when I'm home


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## Charles

I have to say your tank (assuming it is the standard 48" 90 gallon) is a bit small. The females might not feel comfortable without the extra length of the tank to be away with the male. There are always an exception that they will breed in a 48" tanks. But if your goal is to spawn them, try combine both tank to a 6 foot tank and get rid of 1 male first.

temperature is right and light is not too much. I actually don't even turn my on at all. Only time the light is on is when someone wants to see them at night. And my light is a 30" T5 fixture on top of a 72" long tank.

How long do you have them? Tankmates?


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## dye2fish

I have only had them about 3 weeks


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## Charles

That is not a very long period of time...

I say give them more space and times, they will spawn for you...


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## Yitzy

can you please tell us what you use for filters, lighting, sand, food etc. ? Thanks,
Yitzy


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## dye2fish

I have moved all of them to a 180 gallon tank, I filter with a Fx5, Pool filter sand, new life spectrum food also frozen blood worms, very low lights


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## Charles

Yitzy said:


> can you please tell us what you use for filters, lighting, sand, food etc. ? Thanks,
> Yitzy


20 gallon sump, ac500, T5 30" 50/50 but only on when ppl are viewing, fine crushed coral sand, food (fresh shrimp, fish, pellets, flakes, dried krills, many many others).


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## elsantaclause

wwo thats awesome never saw that beofre


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## blazintails

Charles I just sat here for over and hour and read your whole spawing log. Great reading. Keep us posted on your next spawn.

I have one Front in a 70 gallon with a breeding pair of yellow labs. Think I might get another tank and a few more Fronts.

:thumb:


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## Charles

thanks. I sold the whole group - adults + ****. But the buyer is local so I can check up on them once a while... I don't know how much more update I can do on them since I don't have them anymore...


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## blazintails

Wow Charles, sorry to hear that you sold them. I hope this thread doesnt come up lost for furture persons getting into breeding them. Lots of great information.


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## cichlidsrkool111

kool-I have a few surviving baby aceis in my tank...thought they were all dead but i guess not- Still not nearly as cool as frontosa eggs!

GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumb:


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## Xenomorph

blazintails said:


> Wow Charles, sorry to hear that you sold them. I hope this thread doesnt come up lost for furture persons getting into breeding them. Lots of great information.


Don't be sad, he made sure they went to a good home and as Charles mentioned it, the new owner takes good care of them and has fry available every now and then.

Keep bugging Charles to hook you up with some ****, I've seen the adults ... :thumb: :thumb:


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## Charles

I don't have the group anymore


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## jray3

what brand are those tumblers? is there a brand of them?
or do you have to make them yourself? if so how lol cause 
cause my mom has owned a pet store for 30 years and has never heard of one till i asked her were to get one.....


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## Charles

I had some made and some bought. But by far, I think the best one is the one from one of this site's sponsor.


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## GJx

Charles said:


> Catching her is not a problem. I catch them while they are sleeping with my hand. Stripping her is easy as well. All this depends on how much practice you have...
> 
> WELL YOU AHEAD ON WITCHO' BAD SELF,... GRIZZLY ADAMS!!! :fish:
> 
> Catching your fish with your hands when she is asleep! :lol: :thumb:
> 
> But re-introducing her back to the community while taking her out in a nursy tank for a period of time is risky. The alpha male or other females will think she is a new comer and will put a beating on her sometimes. Why risk it...


Seriously though Charles,...thanks for this Spawning Log. I'm not through with it yet, but it's very interesting.

gjx


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