# Help me create a fantastic firemouth tank.



## Matthew Gabrielse (Jan 26, 2010)

Hey everybody,

I'm still somewhat new to fish at this point and still have plenty to learn. I got the twenty gallon tall tank a little over a year ago. It had a jewel cichlid and nothing else when I got it. At the time I knew next to nothing so I just went to my local cichlid dealer, bought some wood, some fake plants, a pleco and a couple african cichlids. After several trades and several casualties I realized that cichlids are far too territorial for such a small tank. I eventually got some live plants and community fish. I recently upgraded the lighting with a 6700k T8 bulb and a DIY aluminum foil reflector. I'm hoping the plants will thrive more under the new lighting. I'll probably be getting a few more background plants and a couple floating plants soon. The picture below is the tank as it is today.

twenty gallon
img200 *dot* imageshack *dot* us/img200/1750/20gallon.jpg

Now on to the main topic:

I recently acquired a fifty five gallon and intend to make another attempt at cichlids. I've got a Coralife double bulb T5NO on the way. It's filtered by a Penguin 350. Air and current are managed by a second hand air pump connected to a second hand powerhead. Substrate is a bottom layer of Flourite fertilizer with a top layer of pool filter sand. I have a handful of plants in it at the moment with some bogwood and a flat rock; Mostly swords, java moss and a lotus that looks like it's dying. I'll probably be getting some anubias and java fern along with some carpeting plants like glosso, marselia minuta and/or dwarf hairgrass.

The stocking for this tank will likely consist of the following:
(in order of introduction to the tank)

a six inch sailfin pleco (I may actually be getting rid of him as the amount of poop on the white sand is disgusting)
eight cory catfish
fifteen or so colombian tetras
six to eight firemouth cichlids (will be narrowed to a single breeding pair)

What should I expect with this setup and stock? Will the firemouths tear up all my plants and kill the other fish? I've read mixed results about keeping firemouths in a more community geared setup. How long should I expect for the firemouths to pair off? Is there anything special I can do to encourage pairing? Any additional advice would be appreciated, I'm at a loss for any further questions to ask.

Here is the tank in question.
img200 *dot* imageshack *dot* us/img200/4473/55gallonm.jpg

P.S. I'm not able to post links or images yet, this is the best I could do.


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## mlancaster (Jul 24, 2009)

I can not help you with the advice, I only kept one fire mouth a few years ago.

But I do want to say both your tanks are great looking. The way you set up the 55 gallon is awesome, you have some great pieces of wood. Dose you water turn tea colored?

Thanks,
Matt


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

In the wild, Firemouths act much like Geophagus, school until they breed, raise the young, and head back to the school until they breed again, I would try and see if you could get a group to get along, if not a pair is fine, but I think personally that a school of firemouths would be quite impressive, but could be a royal pain in the rear, which is why I say a pair is fine to.

Firemouths vary in aggression far to much to get an accurate answer as to whether they will kill off the other fish.

As far as plants, my old ones never touched them, but I have heard of them being uprooted and torn apart before.


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## mlancaster (Jul 24, 2009)

gage said:


> As far as plants, my old ones never touched them, but I have heard of them being uprooted and torn apart before.


Well it looks like most of your plants are attached to your wood, so you may lose the planted ones, but the tank will still look nice.

Thanks,
Matt


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## FiremouthShogun (Apr 26, 2006)

Yeah it should work. The only issues I would have is the Cory's. I really like Cory's but the FM's will make their life tough as they occupy the lower area of the tank. As long as some food gets down to those guys they "should" be fine.

Go with 6 that pretty much ensures you will have at least 1 of each type. Depending on the size and age of the fish you get you will be able to keep the group of FM's together for quite some time.

Some tricks to managing aggression is to create Line of site obstructions, plants, caves. All great ideas. Also managing the lighting and getting the fish real small helps too.


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## mlancaster (Jul 24, 2009)

FiremouthShogun said:


> The only issues I would have is the Cory's. I really like Cory's but the FM's will make their life tough as they occupy the lower area of the tank.
> 
> Some tricks to managing aggression is to create Line of site obstructions, plants, caves. All great ideas.


I think the cories should be fine. I have a very small group with a Texas carpertine & EBJD and they do fine. Since the big fish are such messy eaters the cories just come out of hiding during feeding time when the big fish are distracted and eat all the small particles that fall out of their gills down to the cories, workes great. The only thing is your tank looks great but not a lot of small structures on the ground, so maybe add some piles of rocks or clustered plants for the cories to hang out by.

Definitely line of site barries. I was thinking that once spawning starts to happen, I would have a very specific spawning site, probably back left corner, so obvious they would not choose anywhere else, then use some stone, wood, and/or plants (vals or fake plants), to totally enclose the spawning site from the rest of the tank with line of site barriers. But i think you might be right, it may end up only being one pair, most likely.

Thanks,
Matt


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Several posters both here and other forums have had issues with firemouths just flat out disliking cory cats. Given that firemouths sift their food from the gravel, cories would be a natural competition. This isn't to say that every firemouth has it out for cories, but enough people have seen the aggression that I wouldn't mix the two.


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## mlancaster (Jul 24, 2009)

*dwarfpike*

Good point, I had not thought of it that way. I do not keep cory cats in my Geo tank, and although it was just becuase i had a pictus in there before it is probaly for better.... However, I do have cory Cats with a bahia red, so maybe it could work..... but i belive *dwarfpike* makes a good point to consider.

Thanks,
Matt


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

I too would shoot for a couple pairs or "community" of FM's they are much more colorful and interesting to watch in my opinion when they are in numbers.


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## Matthew Gabrielse (Jan 26, 2010)

Thank you for the compliments Mlancaster. The water does, indeed, turn brownish but after a handful of water changes it shouldn't be very noticeable. My twenty gallon tank has mostly clear water in it, just a slight yellow tinge.

The spot I had intended for them to spawn is just to the right of the middle, beneath that taller wood feature. It kind of overhangs and really only allows entry and exit through the hole in the back and a spot in the front, mid water level. I've placed a flat rock under there in hopes that they'll see that spot and think "Perfect!". Am I disillusioned in assuming I can designate a spot for them?

I intend to fill much of the left side with many more plants while leaving a lot of the right side more barren. I figure that this, in addition to creating more hiding spots for cories, will help to further designate that spot for the firemouths. Would the cories still be at risk in this environment?

I just have concerns with trying to keep more than a single pair of firemouths in here. I mean, it's only fifty five gallons and they get to be about six inches long. I feel like the tank just isn't big enough to give them enough space to escape the other pair(s) during mating. Relistically, with the tank in it's current format, the only other cavelike territory that could be occupied is that hole just to the left of that designated space. With the two territories being in such close proximity I fear there may be too many altercations; The deaths resulting from my attempt at africans stressed me out too much, I don't want to be stressing over this tank too. How aggressive do they really get?

Another concern is the plants. I really want to have a fair amount of plants in here as I love the way they look. Chances are that with every cichlid I add, my plant population will diminish a little bit more. I'm still new to the whole idea of cichlids, I want this tank to be perfect so I just want to cover every base I can.

These are all just assumptions based on research and my limited knowledge, I may be wrong. Again, your feedback is greatly appreciated.


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

Yes if the only two caves are right next to each other, more then one pair is a poor idea. A single pair will love the space. I am just a sucker for all the flaring that happens with groups.


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## bertolli (Aug 18, 2009)

Sorry man, no tank is ever perfect... theres always oooooone more thing you can do to make it better


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## phishes (May 17, 2005)

Sounds like a cool tank. I think lots of hiding spots and hardy plants will help and look great. You never know about FM aggression. Mine is super aggressive and I can't keep him with any other cichlids now. He is about 5'' and in a 25g w/ some swordtails. He doesn't bother them though. He is digging up a hygrow plant as I type :lol:


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## the_evil_dickfeldi (Feb 17, 2006)

Ultimate firemouth tank :thumb: ; it's huge!

http://www.aquahobby.com/tanks/e_tank0512.php

  opcorn: =D>


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## Matthew Gabrielse (Jan 26, 2010)

Sorry, poor choice of words, I know it will never be perfect. I can sure try to get close though.

So I'll be taking the Pleco back to the fish store today, I'll probably get a handful of plants while I'm out and about. I'll probably leave the cories in there, if they get harassed when I throw the firemouths in I'll just put them back in the tank they came from. So I guess I'll just aim for one pair, the cories (maybe) and the colombian tetras. Wish me luck. I'll post pictures of my progress.

Also, that massive tank is making me envious.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

Keep in mind, if you are going for an all natural setup, firemouths don't naturally come from heavily plated areas, mostly very rocky areas.


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## Matthew Gabrielse (Jan 26, 2010)

Accuracy isn't a huge concern to me. I'm sure capitive bred fish aren't going to realize that their ancestors came from non planted habitats anyways.


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

Matthew Gabrielse said:


> Accuracy isn't a huge concern to me. I'm sure capitive bred fish aren't going to realize that their ancestors came from non planted habitats anyways.


Very true. Unless I get wild caught fish I don't worry too much about natural habitats.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

thats fair, I just know with my own aquariums if it doesn't look like there natural habitat it bothers me


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

I've gone back and forth over the years between natural set ups and Pirate ships but usually end up in the middle.  :lol:


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## Matthew Gabrielse (Jan 26, 2010)

I've got it fully planted now. I decided against the carpeting plants, I was told my lighting probably wouldn't support them and that they'd likely be eaten by firemouths anyways. I'll add a five colombian tetras this weekend, the other five next weekend, possibly another five the following weekend, then the firemouths after a couple more weeks.


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## cichlidfeesh (Apr 6, 2009)

Looks like we have similar set-ups. I have my 55g with 4 firemouths and 10 columbians. One word of caution, both fish display similar colors. This causes everyone to match so nothing really stands out. It is hard to tell from far away the difference between the two kinds of fish. The FM's are still young so they are about the same size as the tetras so hopefully when they age there will be more distinction. <-- Just thought I'd throw that out there..


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## mlancaster (Jul 24, 2009)

*Matthew Gabrielse*

Again i really think you tank looks great. What type(s) of subtrate are you using? lighting?

Thanks,
Matt


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## Matthew Gabrielse (Jan 26, 2010)

Thanks again for the compliments, Mslancaster. The lighting is a forty eight inch two bulb coralife T5NO, the substrate is a base layer of flourite covered in pool filter sand.

Cichlidfeesh, so you have four firemouths, is that two pairs or just several males? Or are they still too young to tell? As for mixing the tetras and the firemouths, I'm pretty locked into both species so that probably won't change, I'm more concerned with how they get along than with how they look side by side anyways. Do the firemouths bully the tetras or do the coexist peacefully? Have the firemouths ravaged your plants? (assuming you have plants)


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## cichlidfeesh (Apr 6, 2009)

Everyone gets along just fine. The only aggression is between the firemouths, but it is more display than actual biting. My plants have been rooted for over 5 months, so even if they wanted to destroy them they would have a hard time. I have no idea of gender yet, my biggest FM is only about 2.5'' - 3'' long. My set-up is very similar to yours, except I used black sand becasue I like the way it makes the firemouths look. You are going to really enjoy the first few days of your FM's exploring the tank, very neat behavior.


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## Matthew Gabrielse (Jan 26, 2010)

Nice, it's exciting to hear about a similar tank plan with positive results. I'm probably going to wait a month or so to add the firemouths, hopefully that will allow the plants to root themselves a little deeper and stronger.

Based on what you've seen with your firemouths, would one breeding pair be the maximum for this tank?


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## cichlidfeesh (Apr 6, 2009)

Before the FM's I had a breeding female jag, a breeding pair of a FM and convict, and a breeding pair of GT and salvini. If these guys can establish their own territories I don't see why a couple pairs of FM's couldn't. With your tank set-up I'd say you could do 2 breeding pairs.


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## FiremouthShogun (Apr 26, 2006)

Well in my experience a pair will form rather quickly (3 inch range). Then the pair will stake out the prime area and stress the other fish. Typically it is difficult for FM's to pair when they are stressed and you will only get 1 pair and the paird group will actively keep the others away from any of the locations under that wood.

The mated pair will then randomly dig pits for their potential fry regardless of where your plants have rooted. The plants will live but definately will be damaged through the pitting process.


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## Matthew Gabrielse (Jan 26, 2010)

Now to prepare for breeding as it will happen some day down the road. Assuming I only have a single pair, at what point will the parents turn hostile to the babies? How long, roughly, do I have before I need to take them out and sell them to the store?

I found this write up about breeding them, anything to add?
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108332


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## cichlidfeesh (Apr 6, 2009)

Stores usually like the fry to have some size on them, so I would suggest setting up a 10-20 gallon tank with a sponge filter as a grow-out tank. Just siphon the little guys out and thow em' in the tank, power feed and do a lot of water changes and they should be ready to go in no time. This will give your firemouths time to devote to creating another batch of babies. <-- that is what I did with my feeder convicts breeding, I am not sure if it works well with firemouths.


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## josmoloco (Aug 23, 2008)

rainbow fish a a good choice for a fire mouth tank because they are faster, have small mother(cant eat babies too well) and swim at the surface.


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## jms2010 (Feb 4, 2010)

I just bought a juvenile firemouth, only about 1-1.5 inches. He/She is currently in a 55 gallon tank with 3 silver dollars and a syno euruptus cat. Some quick questions:

Will firemouths do ok by themselves or do they generally need pairs or groups to be happy?

How fast will they grow? how many months does it take for them to reach full size?

What should I feed he/she while it is this size?

thank you


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## FishinVA (Feb 24, 2010)

What a nice looking tank! I am giving firemouths some serious thought for my 75g that I am trying to get up and going again. Still have lots of other research to do for it though before I can fully commit myself to anything yet.

Can't wait to see your tank once you get your firemouths in it!


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## Matthew Gabrielse (Jan 26, 2010)

Thanks for the compliment.

I'm waiting a few more weeks so that my plants can have some time to get some grip in the substrate and on the wood. I figure that will help a little bit if I end up with a firemouth that likes to redecorate.


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## Matthew Gabrielse (Jan 26, 2010)

Thanks for the compliment.

I'm waiting a few more weeks so that my plants can have some time to get some grip in the substrate and on the wood. I figure that will help a little bit if I end up with a firemouth that likes to redecorate.

I got a 20 gallon the other day that I'll be using as a fry tank too. I figure I'll put the six or eight fish in there with some pots for a little while before they go in the main tank. It'll be much easier to catch them in a near empty tank than trying to catch the extras from the main tank.


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