# J. Transcriptus question



## remm (Apr 6, 2009)

Hi all,

First post so take it easy on me. I have a question regarding my J. Transcriptus. I just recently got back into the hobby and acquired a 29 gallon aquarium from a family member. The first fish I bought were 2 Julies at the LFS. They were the last 2 that they had. I had plans on adding 4 more when they came in stock again.
Before I had the chance to make it back out to pick up some more I noticed that they were constantly together. They do not seem to stay within the same rock pile at all times and go wherever they please but always together. My suspicion is that they have paired but I am unsure of how big they are when they pair. One is noticeably larger than the other and also more agressive towards tankmates. The larger is probably around 1.25 to 1.5" if you include the fins with the smaller being about a quarter inch less in length.

My doubts arise from the fact that I bought only 2 at one time, and in my opinion the odds are/were against me. Is this the kind of behavior to expect from a pair? They defend all of the rocks from the paracyp juvies I have in the tank but do not show any aggression towards the Tretocephalus.


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## football mom (Feb 19, 2006)

I have only had Julis since last October. I bought 3, and right away one was bansished and cornered at the top of the intake tube. That one was removed, and the other two behave exactly as you describe your two. I am assuming they are a pair, but no breeding yet. One of them has grown considerably larger than the other. Maybe you got lucky and got a pair.


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## alfalex (Jan 6, 2007)

Look like a pair to me!!!


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## Rick_Lindsey (Aug 26, 2002)

remm said:


> My doubts arise from the fact that I bought only 2 at one time, and in my opinion the odds are/were against me.


I don't have experience with Julies, but 2 fish defending the same territory sounds vaguely pair-like, and the odds were not actually against you... you had a 50/50 chance of getting one male and one female with 2 fish, most people just like better than even odds when they're trying to pair up fish 

-Rick (the armchair aquarist)


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## redm18 (Feb 1, 2004)

Not to sound mean to Rick in this situation but I thought I would point out that the OP was right about the odds being against him. With 2 fish he has 3 possible outcomes. 1 male and 1 female or 2 females or 2 males. That leave him with a 33% chance of getting a pair or at least a male and a female they might not be a pair. By the way remm good luck with getting a pair. I have four right not that are a bit less than an inch I am hoping to get a pair as well.


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## Rick_Lindsey (Aug 26, 2002)

redm, he actually has 4 possible outcomes... male/male (bad), female/female (bad), male/female (good), or female/male (good).

The statistics are much easier to look at though if you take the first fish, regardless of it's sex -- the second fish has a 50% chance of being that same sex, and a 50% chance of being the opposite sex, thus 50/50.

-Rick (the armchair aquarist)


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

Yep Rick's correct.


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## Charlutz (Mar 13, 2006)

Well... to add a little more ... there is a 50% chance that any two random fish will be a male and a female. That is not the same thing as having a pair. Julies can be choosy about selecting their mates. Even if you have a m/f, you may not have a pair that will bond and spawn.


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## felix51 (Jan 30, 2009)

There is a 33% chance any two random fish will be a M/F combination. However, if you already have a fish, then the armchair aquariast is correct, although there is no difference between a M/F and a F/M combo.

Ok, enough math, as to the original post, those fish are still pretty young, and i've certainly witnessed juli juvs. hanging out together at a young age and defending the same territory w/o pairing, so it isn't absolute of course that you have a pair forming/formed. Time will tell.

Not surprised that they don't bother the Neolamp, it's probably the dominant fish in the tank, if not, it most likely will be.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

50% chance in 2 random cichlids giving you both a male and a female.
Possibilities.
Male male 
Male female
Female male
Female female
each equally likely. (when 50% of the fish are male and 50% are female as in most but not all cichlids)
Only prob is not all males or all females will accept a forced partner (Prob a sib if from the same source) but sometimes they do, just luck I guess. 

Ooops edited in. Thats what we are all saying.  

What I guess I am getting at, is does anyone know if they try not to breed with their brother/sister if given a choice?


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## Charlutz (Mar 13, 2006)

felix51 said:


> There is a 33% chance any two random fish will be a M/F combination. However, if you already have a fish, then the armchair aquariast is correct, although there is no difference between a M/F and a F/M combo.
> 
> Ok, enough math


No fair! You can't state an untrue fact and then say "enough math!"  50% 4 possible outcomes, 2 of them are male/female. That is 50%. :thumb:


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## remm (Apr 6, 2009)

felix51 said:


> Not surprised that they don't bother the Neolamp, it's probably the dominant fish in the tank, if not, it most likely will be.


The Neolamp was added after the julis had been in the tank for about a week. The larger of the julis is actually slightly longer, but overall mass the neolamp is definitely bigger. The larger juli fought with the Neolamp for the first 2 days and had actually established it's dominance. Not sure if something happened while I was working or not, but I came home to see everyone happy and a tear in the Neolamp's tailfin.


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## felix51 (Jan 30, 2009)

"2 of them are male/female. That is 50%. :thumb:[/quote]"

Ok more math! If two of them are the same thing then you are double counting. My head hurts.

Not everyone sounds happy if the Neolamp has half its tail left!


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## Charlutz (Mar 13, 2006)

felix51 said:


> "2 of them are male/female. That is 50%. :thumb:"
> 
> Ok more math! If two of them are the same thing then you are double counting. My head hurts.


_Your_ head hurts? Imagine what you are doing to those of us who know you are wrong?  :lol: Since recommending you take a statistics class would be impractical, let me try and add a little bit to Tropheus's post which mapped it out.



24Tropheus said:


> 50% chance in 2 random cichlids giving you both a male and a female.
> Possibilities.
> 
> 1. First possibility is that Fish 1 is Male and Fish 2 is male
> ...


There are four possible outcomes, not three. Two of them are effectively the same with the result that you get one female fish and one male fish. But M/F is NOT the same as F/M when calculating the probabilities. Does that help? Enjoy the sarcasm. It's meant purely for entertainment value.  :thumb:


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## felix51 (Jan 30, 2009)

How angry would you be if you bought two fish thinking one was a male and one was a female, but instead one was a female and one was a male? If someone said, oh nice, you got a M/F combo, would you say, no you're wrong, i have a F/M combo?

I think i'll just have to go buy a bunch of pairs of fish and see how this all comes out, or i suppose i can take an online Stats class. There's a 33% chance I will, and a 50% chance i won't.


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## redm18 (Feb 1, 2004)

Well I feel dumb. Sorry Rick


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## remm (Apr 6, 2009)

So back to this topic. I have just noticed today that both of my julies are in hiding at the back of a rock pile. The larger of the 2 spends her time between a narrow space between a rock and the substrate. All I can see normally is her head. If she is not in that spot she is just outside of that spot laying on the substrate breathing very heavily.

The smaller of the 2 is basically standing guard inside the rock pile. The strange thing is that my Tretocephalus is sitting basically motionless right outside of where the larger julie is spending the majority of ehr time. The smaller julie is holding him off, but he seems like he is taking a pretty good beating and doesnt have room to maneuver to fight back. He (the tretocephalus) comes out to eat.

Same thing with my juvie compressiceps and brichardi, they are idling around the side of the tank that the julies are on which is very odd. Does this sound like I have some julie eggs? I really cannot see into the spot where I figure they would be since it faces the wall behind the tank.


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## remm (Apr 6, 2009)

Nevermind...female dead now...


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