# OB inheritence? - Marmalade Cat's



## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

If a male L. Trewavasae bred with a female L. Trewavasae (OB), could some of the male fry end up with blotches?

Females normally attract males by the way they look. Why did some males develop blotches. Could the males have benifited from blotches to attract females (like peacock's)? How does this occur naturally?

Where are the *L. Trewavasae Marmalade Cat males* (see below) found in the lake?


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

Yes, anything is possible once genes are passed along to offspring.
Actually it is usually the other way around(at least in this example), the males compete for females so they benefit from having the most attractive features.

If it offers a benefit to mating it will usually become a preferred trait.
It could also become favored if it helps in predator evasion.

Naturally, over generations, populations will clearly show a strong inclination to having this trait.
Individuals with the favored trait will mate more and their offspring will prefer this trait.
In turn these individuals will be more successful in mating.
This is all generally speaking from an evolutionary standpoint, I am not really sure if it is the case with this species.


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

Thnks for your help. You've reinforced what i thought. Though the species from Thumbi West only shows blotches in females. The males are blue, without blotches. Are the *male L. Trewavasae Marmalade Cat's* from Thumbi West?

Does both the female and male need to have blotches for the fry to also have blotches?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

There are many locales for OB's. You can get OB's if only one of the genders are OB, though the other parent might need to have the OB gene. There are OB males from Thumbi West.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

harveyb27 said:


> Could the males have benifited from blotches to attract females (like peacock's)? How does this occur naturally?


My understanding is that all OBs in peacocks is not "natural" but bred into them from other species with the OB genes.
OB in the wild appears in quite a few fish inc the one you picture.
Naturally occurring OBs are 'mbuna' including the genera Tropheops, Labeotropheus, Metriaclima, Genyochromis, species and could be some other genera with OB but cant think of any. I believe that OB has never been found naturally in any 'haps' and has never cropped up in any pure bred haps. Thus the OB must have been introduced into both Aulonocara and Dimidochromis, and I seem to recall a few other Malawi hap genera, by hybridizing with one of those mbuna genera - it's pretty amazing just what crosses can be obtained from Malawi cichlids.

In the wild I understand OB males are rare or very rare depending on the species and location and not the norm. Hard to see they have any advantage above rarity advantage in breeding otherwise they would be common in the wild?

The trait though is favored by fish keepers and breeders so is selected for and far more common in captivity/hobby.


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

> My understanding is that all OBs in peacocks is not "natural" but bred into them from other species with the OB genes.


Haha, oops my mistake. I ment peacocks, as in birds lol. Like how the males have impressive colouration to impress the females. In nature the male normally chooses the females based on attractiveness. Though in some cases the females have dominated the selection of a mate. I thought the blotches would have the same effect in the selection of mates with the L. Trewavasae (OB), as i thought the OB marmalades (male) breed with non-OB's (females). So the females may select the male dependent on "impressive blotching".



> In the wild I understand OB males are rare or very rare depending on the species and location and not the norm. Hard to see they have any advantage above rarity advantage in breeding otherwise they would be common in the wild?


I wasnt aware that they may also be rare in the wild!



> The trait though is favored by fish keepers and breeders so is selected for and far more common in captivity/hobby.


I really want a male marmalade cat, though they are very rare and expensive (WC only) in the UK. I want to know how the species naturally breeds (OB'S with non-OB's??) and develops blotches. I know a breeder that has normal males from thumbi west (blue, without OB) and females that are OB. I wish to mimic the natural breeding in the wild to get an OB male and not produce hybrids.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I guess Tan (Rift Aquatics) http://www.aquarist-classifieds.co.uk/p ... _84790.php would be your man to get you a WC Lions cove Labeotropheus trewavasae Marmalade cat male in the UK near London.
(Might insist you take a female with it, he sells em a bit funny?)
Yep I guess expensive to get males might be an understatement. :wink:

Making one from a none OB males? I do not know if this is possible.

I am not sure how they breed myself but think you might need to get a female of one variant as OB and a male from another variant or just put up with OB males being very rare within a variant.

Now weather folk would see the offspring of a variant cross OB male with OB female to get more OB young as unnatural or not is I guess, up to them?

I am not even sure it would work but might be worth a try?


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

Thanks for your help *24Tropheus*. I might just get some F1 OB females and a non-OB male from my local breeder. If i can bring myself to do some overtime at work i may invest in a WC marmalade. I got a quote last week of Â£85 just for the male


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

If you do find out how this works I would be interested to know myself.

My understanding is there is not usually any chromosomal or other genetic determiner of sex in cichlids. I.e. males and females are genetically identical.

Makes me wonder weather the OB gene is a rare sex determiner or just gets expressed in ones that happen to become females more often than in males in this species and variant?

Is there something about being female in this species that makes the OB gene more likely to be expressed? Is there something about being male that makes the OB gene/s less likely to be expressed?

Just ignore this bit I have never really thought about this before.


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

I guess they are simple color morph's that have not developed by any means of natural selection (for camouflage or mate selection), otherwise the non-OB would have died out and the OB should have increased in numbers in certain locations.

>> http://malawicichlids.com/mw09000d.htm

I thought you might want to read this. It features the OB variants of Trewavasae and Fuelleborni, their locations and rare male OB's and rare female O variants (As the female OB is more common).

Here is a nice female OB:


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

harveyb27 said:


> In nature the male normally chooses the females based on attractiveness.


Nope, the females have always done the choosing. Males will display to anything that is willing to watch (female, different species, fake decoys, etc)


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

The original poster was asking about inheritance of the OB trait. Here is how it works to my understanding (at least with L. Fuelleborni and L. Trewavassae).

First, some genetics background: The sex determining chromosome for mammals (including humans) is the "Y" chromosome. Males are XY and females are XX. For cichlids, it is different - the female is the one who carries the unique chromosome. In cichlids, Males have two "W" chromosomes (WW), while females have a "W" and a "Z" chromosome (WZ).

The OB trait is a "Z-linked trait," which means it is usually carried on the Z chromosome - thus only females express the OB pattern, with an exception. During meiosis (a process that occurs during the creation of eggs or sperm), homologous recombination (the exchange of pieces of DNA ) occurs between pairs of chromosomes.

There is a small chance (estimated 1-2% in the wild), that in the the creation of a female's eggs, recombination results in the OB gene on the Z chromosome switching places with the BB gene on the W chromosome. This egg that she produces will be a "W" carrying the OB trait, and if fertilized will result in a male offspring with OB patterning, aka. a marmalade cat.

Now when this marmalade cat male (carrying one W(ob) and one W(bb) ) matures and passes its genetic information along, half of its male offspring will inherit the W chromosome with the OB trait, and half will be the normal "wild-type" BB color. 
Half of this marmalade cat male's female offspring will also carry the W(ob) chromosome and thus will be carriers of two copies of the OB gene (on both their W and their Z chromosome). These females, when mature will produce ONLY "marmalade cat" male offspring.

Thus, it is possible, with line breeding - to obtain a breeding group of OB morph fish that produces all "marmalade cat" OB males. In the wild however, this occurs only about 1-2% of the time.


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

Hey, *Kanorin*. If the above is correct than you have given me exactly the answer i was looking for in the first place. So let me get this right:

*male OB (Marmalade cat) + female OB=*

F_emale fry that carry two sets of OB genes (In both W and Z)._ So these females would always produce marmalade cat males when bred with an OB male.

Could they produce marmalde cats if these females were then bred with normal BB males. Or would it revert back to before?


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

I think you have it, but there is one obstacle which I'll try to clarify.

*male OB (Marmalade cat) + female OB=* fry with four possible genotypes

a) 1/4 Males (marm cat) who carry one W chromosome with the OB gene (WOBW)
b) 1/4 Males normal - no copies of OB gene (WW)
c) 1/4 Females normal - one copy of OB gene on its usual Z location) (WZOB)
d) 1/4 Females that carry two sets of OB genes - In both their W and Z (WOBZOB)

Notice that only 1/2 of these females carry the double OB - and I think they would look exactly like normal females (who carry only one copy). Thus, it would be hard to separate out females from genotype "c" and "d." You would have to mate them and see if 100% of her male offspring were marmalade cats. Once you do this and figure out which females carry double copies, then yes all of her male offspring should be marmalade cats (in theory).

I am hoping to get a marmalade cat male among my L. Fuelleborni offspring, but so far no luck.


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

Now that's a breeding project worth doing (im not interested in making hybrids or variant species, just to selectively breed species as it happens naturally in the lake). You would need to seperate all OB females and breed them to find out their genome. The odd's are reasonable, though it is possible to never get the right genome pattern (WOBZOB). Trial and error situation!

Good luck with the L. Fuelleborni.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Good info in general there I think.
But I should stress in cichlids not all males are XX or all females XY.

I was reading recently though that.............
In some cichlids
"There are also a number of sex influencing genes that can interact with the primary sex determining genes. Autosomal genes have been proposed to account for the many reports of exceptional individuals (like some OB males) that contradict their genetic sex and have been shown to be heritable. The absence of absolute dominance by any one sex determining gene or allele maybe what allows environmental factors to have such a profound effect on sex determination."

I would not assume all OB marmalade cat males are XX :wink:
Or be able to tell in any way that an individual is for sure XX or XY just by its sex.
You can not I believe tell an X from a Y chromosome for sure by any genetic marker or by shape in cichlids.

I am afraid I think it is more complicated than that.


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

This is a new question, however because it is closely related to this post i thought i would continue here:

I have three male L. Trewavasae in mind:

"Chilumba"
"Thumbi West"
"Marmalade Cat"

*1) If the males breed with any ob females would the male offspring still be the same as thier fathers, ie. species from his location.*

I know we discussed the implications of producing marmalade cats. Im more interested in the chilumba for this query. Would the rules be the same. Would they turn out as hybrids?

For example if i get one male chilumba, and four females from thumbi west (or any location?), would they still produce males of the chilumba variant. Or do they have to be females from chilumba?

*2) Would this work as part of a stocklist in a 125g:*

1 male chilumba
1 male thumbi
1 male mermalade cat
9 female ob's from any locaction

Would the males tear each other apart or ignore each other because of colour differences?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Then you have a bunch of mixed strain fish, which are basically hybrids.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

I agree with Fogelhund.

To answer your questions directly:


> For example if i get one male chilumba, and four females from thumbi west (or any location?), would they still produce males of the chilumba variant. Or do they have to be females from chilumba?


The males would not be the same as their father because they have a mix of genes from chilumba and thumbi. Same with the females - they would not be the same as their mother.



> 2) Would this work as part of a stocklist in a 125g:
> 
> 1 male chilumba
> 1 male thumbi
> ...


What do you mean by "work?"

Would there be peace and harmony in your tank? NO
Should you distribute any fry? NO
Would all 3 males survive? There is a small possibility
Would you be promoting a high level of stress in your fish tank? YES


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

Haha thought so, just wanted reassurence, thanks for your help.

The two species are located very far apart (chilumba and thumbi west). Most mbuna stick close to the reefs they are born in. If they venture too far in the open they normally become prey for open water species.

Is it possible that they have evolved the same fleshy nose seperately. Or did one species travel from one area to the other (along the rocky coast). Where do most trewavasae species occur in the lake?

Correct me if im wrong. Sorry for all the questions.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

It is rather interesting weather the offspring would be regarded as hybrid or not.

If the two types (regarded as variants at the moment) become officially described as separate species then they become hybrid for sure.

At the moment the young would I think be regarded as a variant cross (line bred ones if you selected the parents). Trying to think of something similar on the market, Aulonocara "Eureka" maybe?

I guess they would need a new name otherwise folk would buy them under the mistaken idea that they were wild type, where as they would be at least variant crosses and maybe hybrid.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

The definition of species sometimes varies depending on which biologist you ask, but a fairly common or accepted one is along the lines of:

"A group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring, and separated from other such groups with which interbreeding does not (normally) happen." (wikipedia)

Take for example, Pseudotropheus Acei (Luwala variant) and Pseudotropheus Acei (Ngara variant). These two collection points are so far apart (about 400-500 miles) that it's very unlikely that their gene pools intermix in the wild (perhaps they did a few thousand years ago, but no longer). One could argue that they are, indeed two separate species even though their official classification does not designate them as such.

The standard that I go by for breeding and distributing fish is - don't distribute anything that wouldn't normally occur in nature.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

harveyb27 said:


> Haha thought so, just wanted reassurence, thanks for your help.
> 
> The two species are located very far apart (chilumba and thumbi west). Most mbuna stick close to the reefs they are born in. If they venture too far in the open they normally become prey for open water species.
> 
> Is it possible that they have evolved the same fleshy nose seperately. Or did one species travel from one area to the other (along the rocky coast). Where do most trewavasae species occur in the lake?


The Labeotropheus Trewavassae at chilumba and thumbi west most definitely did not evolve the same fleshy nose independently. You are correct in saying that most mbuna probably stay close to the reef that they are born in. However, over hundreds or thousands of years, populations of fish (and most animals) migrate or relocate for numerous reasons - including search of food and storms or geological events that re-shape the lake. Thousands of years is actually a very short amount of time for the speciation of fish, however scientists who study speciation in lake malawi believe the majority of speciation in the lake has occurred relatively recently.

Most likely, the chilumba and thumbi island variants had a common ancestor some 1000 - 20,000 years ago and that population somehow got split such that the gene pool of group A no-longer intermixed with the gene pool of group B. In the time since then, each subspecies has developed coloration and other features which make it more fit to survive in the niche of the lake that it inhabits.


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

Kanorin said:


> I am hoping to get a marmalade cat male among my L. Fuelleborni offspring, but so far no luck.


Let me know if you manage to breed marmalade male offspring. Post pics!



Kanorin said:


> The Labeotropheus Trewavassae at chilumba and thumbi west most definitely did not evolve the same fleshy nose independently. You are correct in saying that most mbuna probably stay close to the reef that they are born in. However, over hundreds or thousands of years, populations of fish (and most animals) migrate or relocate for numerous reasons - including search of food and storms or geological events that re-shape the lake. Thousands of years is actually a very short amount of time for the speciation of fish, however scientists who study speciation in lake malawi believe the majority of speciation in the lake has occurred relatively recently.
> 
> Most likely, the chilumba and thumbi island variants had a common ancestor some 1000 - 20,000 years ago and that population somehow got split such that the gene pool of group A no-longer intermixed with the gene pool of group B. In the time since then, each subspecies has developed coloration and other features which make it more fit to survive in the niche of the lake that it inhabits.


The fleshy nose must have been a benefit at the new location too. I looked at the profiles of the Thumbi, Chilumba and Mpanga. After studying them think i got the chilumba and mpanga mixed up. Could you tell me which one is the one below? It definately matches the mpanga, but when i googled chilumba they also appear? This is the fish i want:


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

Those look most like mpanga to me. One of those photos is actually used in the species profile on this site for the mpanga variant - so I'd assume it is accurate.

I don't know too much about the mpanga variant, but I believe I recall someone saying the males can range anywhere from red or orange with blue, to almost totally red, to almost totally orange, to just about anything in-between.

I don't know about in the UK, but in the states, some of the variants listed on this site I've never seen for sale. Mpangas seem to be a pretty rare find, but I've seen them from a couple mail-order sites. I'd like to get my hands on a nice group of mpanga too, some day. I don't think any other mbuna can achieve that deep red color that some mpanga males can get.


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

I found a local breeder who had a WC breeding pair _(the actual male is in the first picture above)_, unfortunately he sold them to someone else before i asked if he still had them. I put an advert on aquarists-classified (uk) and the guy who bought the pair emailed me to say hes selling 10 F1 juvies. :thumb:

I will get 1 male and 3 females.

however in the future im looking to have a group of males, about 3 or 4.

Would 4 males be ok with 9 females? i know it should be 3 males to 9 females. I dont want too many females, as i want them for the male coloration. Would 1 of the males color-up and the others be sub-soms, or would 4 males ensure no one could be dominant and let them all color-up from time to time (125g). What do you think?


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

I think you should stick with 1 male. Trewavasae males can get pretty aggressive, especially with conspecifics. I'd actually try and get at least 4 females, probably 5 females per male. It's possible that you could get 3 males to work, but you would need at least 12-15 females. Again, your odds of success are much higher with just one male.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

If you have just the one male then at least you know who the father is. If you have multiple males (or females from different locations) then it is rather hard to determine what you have unless the males or females are brothers or sisters.
This is a bit beyond my experience but glad you are getting some advice from folk experienced with these guys. :thumb:


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

The breeder selling them will only sell them as a group of 5 or all 10. If he is willing to give me 1 male to 4 females it should be okay. Though i may end up buying all 10 and selling any extra males as they grow. The juveniles are about an inch (some inch and half).

I have two tanks i could put them in:

30g 3-foot grow-out tank (21 demasoni and 10 cyno hara, all less than an inch).

55g 4-foot mbuna tank (about 30 mbuna, varying sizes between an inch to 3 inches).

I want to know what tank is best to put them in. If i put them in the 55g theres more caves, though i afraid the mbuna already in there may be aggressive. Plus i wont be able to keep track of them.

If i put them in the grow-out i could moniter them and weed out any extra males and put them in my 55g until i can sell them?


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

At an inch or inch and a half, you can probably pick out a dominant male, but telling subdom males from females might be more difficult (Maybe you can, but I really don't know with this variant). Are the females OB?

I'd say you should just buy all 10. You'd much rather be stuck with some extra males than find out in a few months that you have 3 males and only 2 females. Especially because this is a somewhat hard-to-find variant.

You can put them in the 3 foot tank, but they will outgrow that quickly - perhaps in 2 months or so. They will also outgrow the 55 gallon (in about a year or so). If I recall correctly, you are setting up a 125 gallon tank? It seems like you will need it with all of these fish you have growing out!

Good luck with them. I'd love to see some pictures once they get settled in.


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

Kanorin said:


> At an inch or inch and a half, you can probably pick out a dominant male, but telling subdom males from females might be more difficult (Maybe you can, but I really don't know with this variant). Are the females OB?
> 
> I'd say you should just buy all 10. You'd much rather be stuck with some extra males than find out in a few months that you have 3 males and only 2 females. Especially because this is a somewhat hard-to-find variant.
> 
> You can put them in the 3 foot tank, but they will outgrow that quickly - perhaps in 2 months or so. They will also outgrow the 55 gallon (in about a year or so). If I recall correctly, you are setting up a 125 gallon tank? It seems like you will need it with all of these fish you have growing out!


I have told the guy to hold them and i will be collecting them soon. hopefully ill end up with 2 males and the rest females. That way it will be easier to sell the group i dont need.

The 125g is work in progress, im having trouble finding a specific background. Its been weeks now and im still waiting. I have patience. If i can't get the size i need i may settle for the 100g. Which unfortunately will mean less species!

Yes the females are OB. This is the mother. Im hoping the offspring show more blotches.


Is this normal for chilumba juveniles (about 1.5 inches)?? He said "some look slightly mottled, some are silver grey and some have a red hint.. a real mix!"









It looks like this could be a potential male?
Perhaps the mottled ones may be female?


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

I really have no experience with trewavasae chilumba. Actually I have no personal experience with trewavasae at all - I breed Labeotropheus Fuelleborni (Katale), which have OB females and are obviously related to trewavase, but there certainly are differences. And there are differences within each strain as well.

If I had to guess, I'd guess this was a male. It looks like he has some silvery-blue outlines to his fins and some of his face and dorsal area. Then again, it could just be the blue of the net reflecting! It also looks like he has some orange color coming in just behind the gills (which is the same area that my fuelleborni start showing their orange/rusty sides). Again, that's just my uneducated guess.

Why don't you just make your own background? That's what I'm doing for my 125 :thumb:


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

I guess ill just have to wait and see when they grow. He has the breeding pair and said i could always swap for females if i dont have enough.

I did some research on DIY backgrounds. Some with concrete and some with polystyrene.

I just dont think i could get the same finish i found on the aquaterra malawi background.

What are you doing with your background? How are you making it? What kind of finish are you looking for?

Is it possible to use paint on the diy backgrounds for a realistic finish? non-toxic ones?


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Well this is the effect I got on my still being made DIY background with spray paint, B$Q stuff










But not tested its toxicity with fish yet.


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

That's cool. I really like the ledge effect to it. What size tank and what are you going to put in it?


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Tank is 84"x24"x24" but it would work fine with a smaller tank. It takes quite a lot of space so I guess I would be limited to species suitable for say a 78"x20"x20" but as to what to put in it, I still have not made up my mind. Always liked the idea of a community around a group of Petrochromis trewevasae or Cyathopharynx foai or Aulonocara "German Red" but all mutually exclusive (would not do well together) so I guess I am still unsure.   
Nice choice to have though?
Could yet be a mega Mbuna tank (blue and yellow) with a group of Red Tropheus. Bad bad mixing lakes  but I think I have room to pull that one off?


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

I got the chilumba today, as well as some Tropheops sp. Red Fin "Kakusa". I got five of each.

I know i mentioned i would get 10 chilumba. however a couple of days ago the breeder informed me that one of his breeder tanks cracked and he lost some fish. Leaving me with the last 5. He said i could swap later, though it means having to go back and forth and having a mixture of different sized mbuna until i get the ratio right.

My guess is that i may have two males and three females. If this is the case i will keep both males and get another juvenile and hope its female. I will not be keeping any more than 1 male in the same tank though.

I took a picture of two of the treweavasae chilumba fry whilst they were in the bag, i will try and get more when they start to color. They are 1 inch and all grey:


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