# reef tank, anyone?



## ktaylor (Feb 18, 2011)

i know this is a cichlid forum, but there are *many* knowledgeable folks here - has anyone ventured to the 'dark side', i.e. marine environments?

thinking of a nano reef tank, and would love to hear from those who ride both sides of the fence. 

comparisons to cichlid keeping? tanks, water. testing, overall effort....?


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## JoelRHale (Apr 22, 2011)

I came from 8 years of reef keeping.

I won't discourage you from trying but saltwater, and especially reefs, require considerable effort. Expensive fish, finicky coral, perfect lighting, perfect water- all of these make a small failure clearly visible.

You don't know until you try if you like it or not, I just found it very taxing. It was a job, not a hobby anymore.

It's very pretty, and rewarding when you have a good reef growing and can keep fish alive that do not eat the food you feed them (like a dragonet that can only survive if your micro crustaceans are flourishing and will rarely take to flake or prepared food).

I feel like cichlids, Malawi Mbunas in particular, have the most personality of any fish and are much more entertaining to watch.

What I do now is recycle my old reef stuff- I have white sand and live rock as my decoration and use all of my reef equipment (lights and wet/dry). This creates a very saltwateresque look, couple that with colorful African cichlids and your house guests will ask you 9 out of 10 if it's a reef tank.

Very similar in look with a quarter or less the effort.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

The most difficult fish tank I ever owned was Discus... those make my Reef tank feel like cake walk.

Why Nano? if you are trying to do Nano cuz you cannot afford larger then forget it... nanos cost more to do right than huge tanks. 8)


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## adam0444 (Apr 16, 2011)

My neighbor had his salt water take for a couple of years and lost it all it less than 3 days. Just to show you when things go bad they are not as forgiving as they are with cichlids


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## JoelRHale (Apr 22, 2011)

Adam, that's why I hung it up. In one week I lost 400 in fish alone.

Final straw was when a $3 brittle star ate my prized $75 male Squareback Anthias.


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## adam0444 (Apr 16, 2011)

JoelRHale said:


> Adam, that's why I hung it up. In one week I lost 400 in fish alone.
> 
> Final straw was when a $3 brittle star ate my prized $75 male Squareback Anthias.


Yup he tried to start it again but it was to difficult


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## londonloco (Mar 31, 2011)

I gave up my reef after 6 years. WC's with buckets, I hate buckets.


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## ktaylor (Feb 18, 2011)

thanks for all the replies..... i think y'all have cooled my lust :lol:

number6 - was looking at nano for small footprint, not cost


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*ktaylor*
Ok, that is a valid reason... I've been tempted to try a nano with a large sump (like one of equal size) as I think that would help significantly with stabilizing the system without adding to the bioload... we'll see.

*londonloco*, I change 15g on my 150g Reef system weekly... so 3 5g buckets max. 
Discus love pristine water and I used to change 50% of a 100g tank. That's ten buckets weekly... yes, 10. I hate buckets as well... necessary evil! :lol:


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## ktaylor (Feb 18, 2011)

well, i took the plunge and have set up a biocube 14g! while it cycles, i'm investigating choices for the little reef. put in live sand & 2 pieces of live rock w/red coralline algae.


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## JoelRHale (Apr 22, 2011)

Congrats! Some good (cheap and colorful and easy to care for) choices would be firefish, a smaller species clown, clown gobies, pj cardinal fish, maybe a green chromis or 3, a blenny (starry blenny looks awesome), and consider first fish being a blue damsel or yellow tail damsel (very cheap and hardy!)


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## RRasco (Aug 31, 2006)

JoelRHale said:


> This creates a very saltwateresque look, couple that with colorful African cichlids and your house guests will ask you 9 out of 10 if it's a reef tank.


I think cichlids do that on their own, everyone asks if my tanks are salt. "They're salt right?" They say confidently. "No." I reply.

Having said that, I have had the want to setup a marine tank for awhile now. Just need to find a tank and the space. Not sure if I want to venture into fish only, fowlr, or reef. I'd really like to have a shark because, well, how many people do you know that have a shark? And I mean a real shark, not a bala shark.


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## ktaylor (Feb 18, 2011)

thanks for the suggestions joel. i quite like how the damsels look, though the LFS says 'too aggressive'..... she was pushing clowns. would much rather risk a couple damsels than the 5x more expensive clowns.

the blue & yellows and the dominos really caught my eye.

what is yr opinion on the aggressive label for the damsels? ( now my elongatus are AGGRESSIVE :wink: )


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## dielikemoviestars (Oct 23, 2007)

I used to keep a 10g (is that still considered nano?) reef. Other than the cost of stock (live rock/sand, coral...) it wasn't too expensive. Only thing I really had to buy that I didn't already have was lighting, and that was a 2x36w (1 actinic, 1 white) power compact ballast. I think at the time it was around $100.

Mushroom corals hated that much light. Xenia, star polyps, leathers/devil's hands, acropora, etc., loved it. I had great coralline growth, too. Fish stock was a damsel and a false percula clown.

I didn't do anything in terms of supplementing. Just saltwater and light. Worked well for the years I had it set up.


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## JoelRHale (Apr 22, 2011)

She's talking aggressive for saltwater, they are nothing near the aggression level of Africans, especially elongatus! Think tiger barb aggression or a little less. I had about 10 (5 blue, 5 yellowtail) in a 75 with no issues.

Since you only have two pieces of rock I think you'll be good. The damsels are more open water, they are reef dwellers but they aren't afraid to venture from the rocks.

If I were you I would do 5 fish:
1 blue damsel
1 yellowtail damsel (buy these at the same time and first)
1 small clown (true percula or ocellaris are the smallest usually available, but I think tomato clowns are very nice too)
1 green clown goby
1 purple firefish

With those five you would have very easy to care for fish and all primary and secondary colors represented: red (firefish and clown), orange (clown and clown goby), yellow (damsel and firefish), green (clown goby), blue (both damsels and a little on the firefish), and violet (the firefish).

None of those exceed 3", are hardy, and together will cost between $50-$100 (very cheap for a complete stock!!


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## JoelRHale (Apr 22, 2011)

Just did some online snooping, found all of the above fish online for $51+shipping, can PM the site if you want :thumb:


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## ktaylor (Feb 18, 2011)

sounds great joel! i like the colors..... i also like the deeper color of the tomato clown

dlms - i have stock lighting in the bicube - 2 flourescents & 2 LED moonlights. i do want corals or zoas or polyps, but dont know enough about them yet. recommendations for my lighting?


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## ktaylor (Feb 18, 2011)

sure thing on the PM!


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## JoelRHale (Apr 22, 2011)

*ktaylor*, PM will be sent after this, and your lighting will be fine for most any invert you want to grow. Mushrooms are a good beginner coral and come in most any color. Zoas are also pretty easy to maintain.


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## Totalimmortal363 (Jan 10, 2008)

I have an 8 gallon Biocube currently, so far so good 

Give it a shot! All the cool inverts and corals pushed me over the edge, now I want inverts for my FW tank..


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## dielikemoviestars (Oct 23, 2007)

Looks like the smaller biocubes (not the 29g) have 5w/gal. The 29 has 3w/gal. The latter would still grow you some lower light coral (mushrooms, various lower-light polyps). The former should be good for most softies. I wouldn't try anything like clams or acropora with that, though.


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## JoelRHale (Apr 22, 2011)

Well, the bug set in, after railing against how hard it is, and the cost of it, I set up a 20 gallon nano tank. It's been going for about a week now:










Who else is thinking about giving into the dark side? :lol:


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## RRasco (Aug 31, 2006)

Me.

I am eyeballing my 29g, or thinking about picking up another 29g to make it happen. Just not sure what I want to do, fish only, fowlr, or reef. I'd really like some corals, but I also want some cool fish. Ideally, I wanted a huge tank, but the cost of live rock changed my mind real quick.


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## TMF89 (Jul 14, 2010)

Well I figured I'd throw my hat into the ring here. I kept a 29g reef shortly, but I've studied saltwater and reef aquaria VERY intensively for the past year and a half, and by intensively I mean spending hours daily on forums on what not, lol. I've never kept damsels, simply because EVERYONE I know all agrees that they're the most aggressive fish in the marine tank. Normally you wouldn't want one in a "community" tank any smaller than a 55, and even then the fish will become a very aggressive king of the tank. For an even better illustration, I've known multiple people who've kept very large triggerfish (grow to lengths of two+ feet and a few of the species have to be kept alone once they reach adulthood because they'll tear into anything else) with adult Damsels (Damsels reach 5" on average), because the Damsels are aggressive enough that they mostly just ignore each other. It's a well-accepted opinion by pretty much every reefer that Damsels are inch for inch the most aggressive species in saltwater. Personally I wouldn't do a damsel in a tank that small if you want to keep other fish in there, you're basically playing Russian roulette and hoping you get a relatively passive one.

As far as stocking goes otherwise, the rule of thumb for saltwater is 1" per every 3-5 gallons. Since you're new, and starting with the most difficult type of tank (smaller tank=larger parameter swings), I'd really recommend keeping the bioload light at first, maybe just a pair of clowns? Frankly even then you'd only be able to add one more of all but the smallest fish, maybe two if you really stay on top of your water parameters.

As far as Biocubes themselves goe, they're great asthetically, but they do have some quirks. I'd highly recommend removing the bioballs that came with it, and adding a different form of media. Did it come with a protein skimmer? If not I would look into one for it, with that you could completely replace all the other filtration methods, a skimmer+live rock (saltwater aquariums depend highly on the porous reef rock hosting beneficial bacteria, they're basically your biological filter) would be all you would need until you start getting into some of the hardier corals.

Other than that the only other thing I can think of is definitely no tomoato clowns. In fact the only clown you could really keep is a type of oscellaris or percula clown, they both max out around 3". Every other clown gets way too big for a 14g tank, Clarkiis get to 5", and Tomatos and Maroons get even larger, and they're also a member of the damsel family, so if you tried to force a larger clown in a smaller tank, it'd tear everything else apart.

Now I realize that my post is pretty pessimistic compared to everyone elses' and that my credentials on this site aren't nearly as high as some of yours. However I can tell you that everything I've said here is in keeping with what anyone else would tell you on any reef site. I'm not sure if we're allowed to post links to other sites in these threads? If not then let me know and I'll PM you a link to a forum where you'll have thousands of reefers with decades of experience to help ya out, and actually a forum dedicated specifically to nano aquariums, and a site that basically everyone and their mother uses for ordering saltwater fish online. Finally I don't want to discourage you guys from your reef tanks, they're extremely rewarding aquariums, a few frags at the start grow into a fully blown out underwater garden six months later, really a beautiful type of fish tank. But realize that you're going to have to learn a whole new type of fish keeping, and that you'll be spending A LOT more time on these thanks than any freshwater one you've done up in the past. If you can handle that, then by all means enjoy your aquariums, and I can't wait to see how they turn out!


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## ktaylor (Feb 18, 2011)

i have a 26bowfront that currently houses cichlids..... if i learn enuf w/my biocube 14 i will convert that one. joel has been giving me some good tips via PM. thx bud!
:fish: opcorn: :fish:


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## JoelRHale (Apr 22, 2011)

Call around. Average price for premium, 3 month cured LR in my area is around $7/lb. Then I found out the lfs I normally frequent sells the same quality LR for $5/lb. Major money saver! Plus they let me pick LR out of the coral tank and brought home 3 really nice hitchhikers- a small xenia, a red zoa, and a good sized featherduster. There are also some fan worm colonies, anemones (not aptasia thank god), and some really nice purple, green, and red coralline growth on them.

A 29 would make sweet (not so) nano. If you're on the fence, do FOWLR with reefsafe fish. The LR doesn't need the 5w/gallon light coral needs to stay alive so with FOWLR you're only in the cost of LR, salt mix, and fish.

The best way to save with LR is to buy half of what you would buy as Rock Base, the dry, uncured pieces are about $1-2/lb. Then buy nice cured LR to put on top.


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## JoelRHale (Apr 22, 2011)

*TMF89*, damsels get a bad rep, they aren't so bad, especially yellowtails. They max at 2" IME and freakish huge one's get 3". They are also pretty shy, very inquisitive, and prone to getting bullied by others.

Also, we are talking about fish aggression on a cichlid forum :lol: My rusties and yellow labs are 5x more aggressive than any damsel I've ever had!

Since you change water way more frequently in a nano, most authorities say you do not need a protein skimmer.

How long did you keep yours? What did you keep?

*ktaylor*, no problem! Glad I could help! :thumb:


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## ktaylor (Feb 18, 2011)

i currently have the two damsels ( 3stripe and azure), and both will stay small. i checked that! 

have added some scarlet hermit crabs, who are loving the growth on the live rock. think i am having a cyano outbreak, and am limiting 'daylight' currently. fish & crabs are happy , esp becuz i added a lot of empty shells and 2 are really oversized. the azure damsel has adopted the 4" 'cinnamon bun' shell, while the 3 stripe lurks the caves. 1 of the crabs moved house, and now lives in some sort of armored whelk ( dont know the real name yet).

charging batteries to post some pics


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## RRasco (Aug 31, 2006)

The live rock at my closest LFS is $3.49/lb, cured. 29 gallon would run $150 using the 1.5x rule. I was thinking if I did something small it would have to be worth it, like an anemone and a clown. Maybe some starfish or sea horses...? Money is always a factor and I am planning a pond build as well, so we'll see what happens.


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## RRasco (Aug 31, 2006)

I ended up setting up a reef tank. Thought I would share it with my cichlid-a-holics.


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## Tadgo (Jul 31, 2011)

Nano-reef.com. Good forums. Good advice. Looked at a nano but going with a Cichlid tank instead. The $$$$$$ makes me a little gun shy. Lots of good DIY stuff that can be used in freshwater too. My $.02


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## DanniGirl (Jan 25, 2007)

Looks good *JoelRHale and RRasco*!

*RRasco*, which do you like better? Salt or African?


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## JoelRHale (Apr 22, 2011)

Thanks, *DanniGirl*, I think it looks much better now!










*Tadgo*, nano reef is good but IME, this forum has the best, most friendly community. It might not be on topic but it's nice to share your interest with the people you like  sw is expensive but you can at least make some of that back by trading frags at frag meetings. In the picture above, I've only bought 3 of those corals so I've saved a lot there.


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## clekchau (Jul 24, 2011)

JoelRHale said:


> I came from 8 years of reef keeping.
> 
> I won't discourage you from trying but saltwater, and especially reefs, require considerable effort. Expensive fish, finicky coral, perfect lighting, perfect water- all of these make a small failure clearly visible.
> 
> ...


weird, i've been into fowlrs and easier type reefs (soft coral and lps) for years and and my opinion differs, they are really easy to keep, in fact filteration is pretty straight forward if you have enough live rock. my 550 gallon requires probably as little maintenance as most cichlid tanks. i have a massive skimmer, sump full of live rock and change the water once a month. i guess your experience is alot different.


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## clekchau (Jul 24, 2011)

here is a pic of the fowlr, it is in wall, the vlamingii tang in the middle is over 12 inches, the emperator is about 10 inches. saltwater fish have a ton of personality, especially angels, triggers, groupers etc


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## JoelRHale (Apr 22, 2011)

Haha you certainly can't argue with results like that. 550 gallons you say? Holy cow, what are the dimensions of that bad boy?

My experience, as I'm finding out after restarting the hobby, was largely due to an inept lfs try to make money and I was too young/naive to know not to take them at face value. I was sold a birdsnest as my second coral haha, how low is that?

This nano I have going now take about the same amount of time to maintain a week as my 75 gallon, so you could say I have been "born again" with my opinion, with the right approach I'm finding it's way easier.

I'd love to see more of that tank, are you on any reef forums?


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## DanniGirl (Jan 25, 2007)

JoelRHale said:


> Thanks, *DanniGirl*, I think it looks much better now!


Wow- looks awesome! :thumb: 
So which do you like better? Salt of African? :lol:


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## JoelRHale (Apr 22, 2011)

That's a hard one, both types of fish are filled with personality and color. I think the variety of life present in the saltwater aquarium gives it the edge in my opinion. Have you tried salt yet?


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## clekchau (Jul 24, 2011)

salt :lol: .


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## clekchau (Jul 24, 2011)

JoelRHale said:


> Haha you certainly can't argue with results like that. 550 gallons you say? Holy cow, what are the dimensions of that bad boy?
> 
> My experience, as I'm finding out after restarting the hobby, was largely due to an inept lfs try to make money and I was too young/naive to know not to take them at face value. I was sold a birdsnest as my second coral haha, how low is that?
> 
> ...


8 feet long by 36 inches wide by 36 inches high. it replaced a 600 gallon 8 feet by 4 feet by 30 inch acrylic that was majorly scratched up and i'm going to make it a big all male african tank.

i'm on reef forums but never did a build thread, just mainly browsed the large tank section to get ideas.


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## JoelRHale (Apr 22, 2011)

When I get my first house that's the kind of tank I'd really like, salt or African. It's very impressive.


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## clekchau (Jul 24, 2011)

thanks. regarding the 600 for the african cichlid tank, what would be the best way to cycle it?


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

clekchau said:


> thanks. regarding the 600 for the african cichlid tank, what would be the best way to cycle it?


Depends on how you wanna stock it. Fishless cycle with bottled ammonia is usually recommended, but its kinda wasted if you don't fully stock right away. If you wanna stock all at once, go fishless. If not, start with like a dozen electric yellows and wait a month for bacteria to get established (should have enough volume to not have to worry about ammonia or nitrite during that time), then gradually up your fish numbers - the bacteria multiplies quickly once its already established. I'd probably do it that way because buying 100 fish at one time doesn't sound very pleasant on my wallet :lol


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## RRasco (Aug 31, 2006)

DanniGirl said:


> *RRasco*, which do you like better? Salt or African?


That's a hard one. I absolutely love my cichlids, but I am finding a new passion with reef stuff. The corals are probably the most amazing thing I have ever seen. They are like plants, but animals, but not. Watching them open and close is crazy stuff. I can definitely say another reef tank is in my future, but I won't be tearing down my peacock/hap tank or front tank to fill it with SW. I'll simply get a 13th tank. LOL. I'm all about variety, hence why I have a tang, victorian, one of each malawi, salt, etc.

Here are some photos of the reef from this weekend. Corals are definitely easier to shoot than cichlids!


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

nice nano tank guys. *** been itching to try one but i just cant pull the trigger.
will i be able to run a 30g-40g with a 20g sump with using protein skimmer?
i have a basic 20g sump lying around and this gives me an excuse to try it.
plus i think the wife wouldnt mind saltwater tank to.


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## JoelRHale (Apr 22, 2011)

Protein skimmers are used for nutrient export so you don't have to change the water as much. Since you can easily change 2-5 gallons of saltwater a week you don't really need a protein skimmer. :thumb: I'm running a 20 High and my filtration consists of an AC110 modded into a fuge with surface skimmer attachment, an AC20 powerhead, ~20lb live rock and 20lb live sand. With only that my nitrates/phosphates stay at 0ppm. As mentioned earlier, check out www.nano-reef.com I'm on there with the same name. They have a lot of really great information for tank set ups. Some people only use live sand, rock, and a powerhead and keep pristine tanks. And of course some have the all of that, a sump, fuge, protein skimmer, auto top offs, and all sorts of crazy equipment.

If you have everything for the 30-40g setup for freshwater all you need to really add is a suitable light.


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## kodyboy (Dec 9, 2007)

I have had saltwater tanks for almost 30 years and in the end I have found out the following:
1) get a good amount of cured live rock or cure the rock (letting the dead and dying living things on it die off and the hardy specimens survive) and set it up in a nice loose structure (not a brick wall).
2) have a good amount of water flow (around 20-50 gph) so a 10 gallon tank should have between 200-500gph of water flow. This flow should move around the tank, and two powerheads (koralia or the newer maxijets with the wider, gentler flow) that cycle on and off with a timer or just cover the whole tank would be ideal. Sesile invertebrates (like corals) can't move and the water flow takes away waste and brings in nutrients/oxygen. 
3) a nice, deep (3 inch or more) aragonite based sand bed to help with calcium levels and nitrate reduction. I have found that many marine organisms love to "play" with the sand in some fashion. I have also found that you do not need tons of sand sifting animals to keep the sand from developing anaerobic spots. Live sand is good too, but standard sand has worked well for me in the past.
4) Good lighting! Do not skimp on your lighting! A good metal halide, T5 or LED set-up is what you need to grow corals properly. T5s are best with active cooling (fans), individual reflectors adn good bulbs (ATI, Geissman, UVL etc.). Metal halides need good reflectors and should be mounted to allow copius heat dispersion. LEDs are new and from what I have seen and used great, but expensive. I like the blueline pendant and a pendant from shop-reeffiltration.com. Both are reasonably priced 250 watt metal halide replacements. 
If you are keeping a FOWLR I would not worry so much about the lights. The live rock will need some, but without corals enough to see the fish generally works. If you want pretty purple coraline algae you need good light however.
6) I like a good skimmer on my marine tanks, it supersaturates the water with oxygen and takes out waste. I would have one on every marine tank (especially FOWLRs with lots of fish) except one that I was trying to grow nutrient loving corals in. 
7) I have found that with good water flow, a good amount of live rock and regular water changes no other filter is neccessary (other than a protein skimmer) in a marine tank much like a freshwater planted tank. 
8) Marine tanks are not difficult to keep, but they do require some planning. Their are some ridiculously hard to keep corals and fish, and then others that are really hard to kill. Some of these have already been mentioned, yellow tailed blue damselfish, aquacultured clownfish and dottybacks, royal grammas, yellow watchmen gobies, firefish, flame angelfish, coral beauties, most triggerfish (although some are really mean), bluehead wrasse, snowflake morays, pajama and bangii cardinalfish, lionfish, and yellow tangs. These are some tough fish. A few fish to avoid: most butterflyfish, white and black damsels (not hard to keep, just mean), anthias, tilefish, leopard wrasses, dragonets, orange spotted tilefish, pinatus batfish, Neoglyphidodon damsels (reverse ugly ducklings, pretty when small, mean and ugly when big), sharks, skates, rays and ribbon eels. 
These are just a sample, there are many more in both categories
for corals here are some that are just about bulletproof:
green star polyp, xenia, kenya tree, zoanthids, mushroom corals, montipora, bubble tip anemones, green sinularia, and colt coral. While not an exhaustive list by any means these are usually fairly durable and forgiving. 
You can have a beautiful tank with the above species, and other than adding salt to the water they are no more difficult than cichlids. Bangii cardinals are even mouth brooders and easy to breed


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## DanniGirl (Jan 25, 2007)

JoelRHale said:


> That's a hard one, both types of fish are filled with personality and color. I think the variety of life present in the saltwater aquarium gives it the edge in my opinion. Have you tried salt yet?


No I have not taken the plunge....yet, LOL! I have a Tenecor, 110 Gal. cylinder aquarium, sump, stand and canopy that's just taking up room. It's 36" tall so I'm not sure how well it would work for a salt tank though. What's your opinion?


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## DanniGirl (Jan 25, 2007)

*RRasco*, wow- fascinating pictures! That's too cool! Thanks for sharing!
How is the maintenance on that tank?

(Oh...and since you now have a reef tank, are you going to set up another fish only tank?)


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## JoelRHale (Apr 22, 2011)

Saltwater is actually pretty good for tall tanks as long as you have good lighting. For light penetration, a few Metal Halides with some actinic t5 or LEDs would do the trick. You can have a wide variety of light requiring coral in a tall tank. Soft corals at the bottom, LPS in the middle, and SPS on the top. Of course you don't need to follow that specifically and there could be overlap.

Or, you know, I could take that off your hands and free up some space for you :lol:


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