# HELPP!!! Nitrite is 10.0 Nitrate is 50-60ppm annominia is 0



## GirlsMommy1215

so my tank has been set up for about 3-4 months i had some kssues and lost my fish , i switched to African cichlid sand and let it run my water was perfect , *** put fish in now , i have about 13 cichlids and 4 cory catfish in my 60 gallon tank , my water is testing fine for everything besides my nitrite is 10.0 and my nitrate is reading af 40-60 ppm and ammonia is 0 , what can i do to lower and control my nitrite issue ??


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## caldwelldaniel26

You should start by doing a 75% water change and dose 1 tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons of water 1/2 tank volume today and 1/2 tomorrow to lessen the effects of the nitrite on your fish.


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## dalto

Sounds like your tank is cycling again.

A nitrite of 10 is pretty bad. My recommendation would be to do a 75% water change.

After the water change you should read up on the nitrogen cycle. The nitrite will eventually fall to 0 but in the meantime you will need to do water changes every day to keep it in check. Aquarium salt can also reduce nitrite toxicity.


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## caldwelldaniel26

Once you have completed the water change, I'd suggest trying to find an LFS that carries Startsmart Complete and doubling up on the dosage.


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## PfunMo

Looking for the cause can be tricky but one of the easy things to do is count the fish! What you are seeing is likely to be one of two things. An ammonia spike, possibly caused by a dead fish laying somewhere out of sight, and the unexpected ammonia spike is not noticed and is now into the nitrite phase or something wiped out only the bacteria doing the nitrite to nitrate conversion. I lean toward the dead fish idea? Possible other things could have caused the spike. Any major changes like moving lots of plants, changes of the substrate or too vigorous, too soon filter cleaning? I don't clean too hard on new tanks and just let the dirty, and good bacteria, collect so that they are more able to stand small changes. New bacteria colonies tend to be a bit more "tender" than a tank a year old. 
Since bacteria bounce back pretty quickly once they have been there, not so slow as first getting them established, I would not worry with adding bacteria as there are some there. They just need to regrow to handle the job. Not that adding bacteria would hurt if it is handy/available but if it takes a couple days to get it, the crisis will be past by then. I would do the water changes as the main defense. Nitrate at 50-60 could stand some lowering anyway and water changes are the way to do that. Get the nitrate down and the nitrite will also be reduced. First make sure there is not a missing one laying in the back creating trouble as fast as you can fight it?


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## GirlsMommy1215

no missing fish still 13 cichlids and 4 cat fish , we've had the fish in there about 10 days without a water change yet so the bacteria could build back up and ammonia is at 0 just nitrite and nitrate are high.


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## GirlsMommy1215

my fish seem to be happy very active nice colors just dont want to loose them again .


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## dalto

PfunMo said:


> something wiped out only the bacteria doing the nitrite to nitrate conversion.


From reading the original post I thought the tank was empty for some period of time. Could be a bad assumption on my part.



GirlsMommy1215 said:


> my fish seem to be happy very active nice colors just dont want to loose them again .


Water changes to lower nitrite is you best bet.


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## GirlsMommy1215

we just did a water change , how long should we wait for the next one as we are going through this cycle ?? we have been told multiple different things as far as to not do a water change at all while cycling and others say 10-25 percent water change weekly


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## caldwelldaniel26

Eventually you're going to have some issues with the venustus since they should be in a tank double that size but you should probably start doing 25% water changes daily or 50% every other day, replacing the salt you take out, until this clears up... By the way, are you using test strips or the liquid tests?


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## GirlsMommy1215

test strips .


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## caldwelldaniel26

You wouldn't be doing water changes during the cycle if you didn't have fish in the tank now. Cycling with multiple fish in the tank, greatly complicates the process. You need to either get some filter media from an established tank or you need to get some Startsmart Complete to get the nitrobacter colony (nitrite eating bacteria) back up and going again.


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## caldwelldaniel26

You also need to go buy an API master test kit because those test strips are very unreliable and I guarantee you it's waayyyy off.


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## GirlsMommy1215

okay cause we have been using stabilty to help prevent " new tank syndrome " and prime for high nitrite and nitrate , im calling all my local fish stores which isnt very many too see if they have smartstart complete.


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## GirlsMommy1215

when you say way off would it mean that the strips are reading higher than they should be


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## caldwelldaniel26

Stability has never worked for me except to boost bacteria after a heavy filter cleaning. I like Seachem products but they have a few that are kinda hokey. Prime is an excellent product but it only masks the problem temporarily. Please get the API master test kit and retest your water so we know what levels of nitrite we're actually dealing with.


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## caldwelldaniel26

Yes, the test strips could possibly be reading something that's not there or reading higher levels, maybe less...


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## GirlsMommy1215

grabbing the new test kit now. should i test it before or after i use the safestart?


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## dalto

GirlsMommy1215 said:


> we just did a water change , how long should we wait for the next one as we are going through this cycle ?? we have been told multiple different things as far as to not do a water change at all while cycling and others say 10-25 percent water change weekly


The advice about not changing water during a cycle is great advice if you are cycling without fish. However, if you are cycling with fish and don't want them to die then you need to change the water whenever Ammonia or Nitrites get high.

As for the water change amount during a cycle is has to proportionate to the problem. If you want to remove 50% of the nitrites you need to change 50% of the water. In this situation 10-25% of the water isn't going to do much. In your specific case I would 75% per day(or more often) until your nitrites fall below 0.5. After that, keep an eye on it and perform changes as needed.



GirlsMommy1215 said:


> when you say way off would it mean that the strips are reading higher than they should be


In my experience, test strips are usually "in the ballpark" but not terribly accurate. For example, if your strip is showing 10, it might be 7 or 12 but it probably isn't 2 or 25.



GirlsMommy1215 said:


> grabbing the new test kit now. should i test it before or after i use the safestart?


Before. Also, if nitrites are still high you might consider another water change before adding the safestart depending on how long it is has been since the last one.


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## GirlsMommy1215

we just did a change about 2 hrs ago . we just got home with the master kit we are getting ready to check thay now


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## GirlsMommy1215

pH - 7.6
Ammonia - 0.25
Nitrite - 0.50 - 1.0 ppm 
Nitrate - 20 - 40 ppm

that is with the master kit


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## GirlsMommy1215

should i add the safestart ?.


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## dalto

GirlsMommy1215 said:


> should i add the safestart ?.


I would add it and then test again in the morning.


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## GirlsMommy1215

okay , are those readings as bad as the strips were telling me they were


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## caldwelldaniel26

In my experience, safestart has been a complete dud but it has worked for some people... Your test results now are much better than what the test strips were showing. Nitrite is the number one thing you need to worry about because it's the most poisonous of all. If you used prime for the water change that could be showing a false positive for ammonia. Like dalto said, just dose the safestart and check your parameters again in 24 hours.


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## GirlsMommy1215

i looked for smartstart unfortunately none of my local stores ccarry it i would have to order it so they gave me safestart plus and said to treat for 4 consecutive days without a water change ( would you agree ?? )


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## caldwelldaniel26

I'd monitor the nitrites very closely and dose sea salt or kosher salt at the levels I gave earlier to lessen the poisoning effects. I suppose for the time being that's your best option but beware taking advice from your LFS because they're usually just in it for the money and their going to try to sell you as much junk as they can, I had to learn the hard way.


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## GirlsMommy1215

i will , and thank you this is why i joined this site because i rather ask people who actively have african cichlids instead of just cpu training for a job . i appreciate all the help, i have rare peacocks in there i dont wanna loose .


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## caldwelldaniel26

Well we're glad to have you and there's a lot of very knowledgeable people here to answer just about any question you may have. I know how you feel, I've got way too much invested in my fish, in more ways than just monetarily.


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## GirlsMommy1215

so far not much difference in the water , the nitrate went down a little but other than that still about the same . shoulf ibdo another water change or treat for the 4 days like the people told me .


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## dalto

I would do a 50% water change whenever nitrites reach 0.5


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## caldwelldaniel26

As long as it's not going up much more than what it was yesterday, just stick with dosing the safe start and the second dose of salt today.


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## GirlsMommy1215

yeah nothing has rised . stayed the same . i added the 2nd dose of salt and getting ready to do the 2nd dose of safestart.. should i do the salt daily to until cycle is over ??


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## caldwelldaniel26

No, don't add salt unless you do a water change and only use 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons for the amount of water removed. So as an example, if you were to change out 30 gallons, you'd add 6 tablespoons.


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## GirlsMommy1215

ooh okay . we just did the 2nd treatment of safestart before i did it i tested the water ammonia and nitrate is slowly going down the nitrite is still at a 1.0 ppm


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## caldwelldaniel26

Are the fish gasping, scratching, showing any signs of distress?


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## GirlsMommy1215

no sir, very active and healthy


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## GirlsMommy1215

i just took this picture .


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## caldwelldaniel26

What is your substrate? I like it! Well as long as nobody is showing signs of distress at the moment let's just try to ride it out till tomorrow and see what we have in the morning.


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## GirlsMommy1215

we use african cichlid sand and crush coral the rocks we found thank you . my boyfriend painted the back black and we fell inlove


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## caldwelldaniel26

Nice, I'm using pool filter sand and a Universal Rocks background. But I really like the look of your sand and rock setup.


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## GirlsMommy1215

i love your tank its beautiful, my boyfriend loves the rocks beflre we had more store decorations and he wanted all the fake plastic stuff out of it . we are thinking about getting a bio wheel filter or a canister filter right now we are just running 3 whisper filters .


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## caldwelldaniel26

Go for the canister, you'll be happier with it and less noise


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## GirlsMommy1215

thats what my boyfriend said hes the fish guy lol im just more tech savvy so thats why im on this blog instead of him . this tank is his pride n joy he has oscars for 15 years started with 8 ended with 2 that were bigger than his hand never had these issues lol so now hes all stressed about his tank


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## GirlsMommy1215

he had a question about bottom feeders , what can you put in the tank with them and sand , and how do you clean your sand during water changes


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## caldwelldaniel26

I know how he feels though. I used to get paranoid and stressed about every little nick or scrape but the best practice is to keep up with water changes and filter maintenance and quarantine all new fish. You can use a water change siphon to pick up any debris on the surface of the sand and every couple of months I'll stir up the sand to make sure there's no anaerobic pockets. I'd get either a bristlenose pleco or a group of synodontis catfish and they will do fine in the sand


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## GirlsMommy1215

&& the stuff under the sand ? and the rocks , could the waste under there also be causing the nitrite to rise ??


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## GirlsMommy1215

he said he thinks he has watched your YouTube videos.


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## caldwelldaniel26

I don't think there would reasonably be enough organics buried in the sand from normal fish waste and excess food to be causing a huge spike in nitrite or nitrates. Unless you had a couple of dead ones in there you forgot about lol. I have seen a YouTube video where a guy actually found a few skeletons in his substrate. You can move the rocks around and vacuum under them with the siphon if you want, but it's better to have them touching the bottom of the tank so stuff doesn't get under them.


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## GirlsMommy1215

so this is our readings this morning . what should we do ?? to us it doesnt seem to be changing just staying the same .


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## caldwelldaniel26

You probably need to be using the high range pH tester, it's darker than what it should be for low range... Just keep dosing the safe start and pray that it works because it's 50/50. If your nitrites start rising or the fish seem to be in distress then do a 75% water change and double dose the safe start. If you can order the Startsmart Complete I'd suggest doing so now and just maintain until it gets to you.


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## GirlsMommy1215

okay . will order that now . ammonia looks likes its dropped a little but not much .


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## caldwelldaniel26

As long as it's not going up then it's getting better at least. The Startsmart should get everything fixed though.


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## GirlsMommy1215

is this the right stuff ??


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## caldwelldaniel26

That's it, get two bottles and pour the whole first bottle in and check your water parameters after 24 hours. Then use the second bottle if necessary...


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## GirlsMommy1215

okay will do !!


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## PfunMo

I'm on the simple is better route so I go at things a bit less active than some. When faced with high ammonia or nitrite readings, I like to cut it off at the first step if I can. I find Ammon-chips or Amm carb to be good, cheap things to keep on the shelf for times when I get things off course. By hanging either of them in a bag some place where water passes over/through them, they suck up and hold the ammonia long enough for the bacteria to build up to process things. Bacteria in a bottle are often somewhat suspect as the type of bacteria we need, require oxygen and moderate temperatures. So it can depend on how long they have been in the bottle and how hot the truck hauling them to the store? 
That may explain the differing opinions that we read about. Spin the wheel and see what you get? Not tried them in 25-30 years, so I have no current personal experience on that. 
But I might throw in some thought on the decor for future? No need to stress things right now but at some time in the future, it may pay to do some rearrangement on the rocks. Humans have a hard time thinking like fish and how/why they need the rocks. When fish are young and new to the tank, lots of them will get along fine but as they get older, they do begin to act human. The weak one needs to get out of sight at times. So they need lots of small nooks and spaces where they can get fully out of sight, not just under something. Looking at the pics, there are few real spots to get out of sight or hide if some big guy is chasing you. 
I find it hard to stack the rocks and find building more of a "jumble" works better to make those tight little spots. Maybe the next time you are moving things and when the crisis is past, think building like something that fell off a truck? If you are able to find rocks in tour area, I suggest lots more for the type fish I see in the picture.


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## caldwelldaniel26

Please do not put ammo-chips in your filter it's not advisable when cycling a tank or advisable to use at any point in my opinion. If the biological filter is inadequate it's better to get another filter than to add something that only masks the problem. You need your BB to be able to handle the normal load of ammonia, which it is at this point, and you need some nitrite to feed the nitrobacter colony. Ammo-chips and zeolite absorb ammonia making it unavailable for the bacteria to oxidize. When it's absorbed all it can your bacteria are going to have more ammonia than it's normally used to. Keep doing what you're doing and everything will work out.


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## GirlsMommy1215

all my filters are hang overs. its a 60 gallon tank with 3 hang overs. 60 gallon, and 2 45 hang overs. maybe bad filtration?


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## caldwelldaniel26

What brand and models do you have? I would suggest getting a canister filter if it's within the budget... An FX4 with your HOB's would be much better


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## GirlsMommy1215

canister filters are in the talk. which eould you recommend? right now im looking at a sunsun 304 b


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## caldwelldaniel26

Sunsun filters are decent for the price but I've had mixed results with them, it's kinda like how I've tried to tell my dad a million times to stop buying Harbor Freight grinders and buy a DeWalt, he could have bought two DeWalts that would last for years for what he's spent on the multiple cheaper ones. I've got an eheim that's been running for years. Eheim's a little more expensive but they are reliable and are excellent bio filters. The FX4 by fluval is also a good filter and I've never had any problems with mine, plus they usually come with good media. Eheim and sunsun usually don't... How much are you looking to spend and I'll give you the best recommendation I can.


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## GirlsMommy1215

70 or 80 dollars


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## caldwelldaniel26

Okay, well the sunsun would be the way to go then. Do you have any idea the combined gph of all three HOB's you currently have?


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## GirlsMommy1215

i have no idea.


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## DJRansome

You can Google the filter name and GPH.

For example "what is the GPH of AquaClear 70?"

The name should be on the filter somewhere.


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## caldwelldaniel26

Lol, then yeah I think it would be a good idea to go ahead and order the canister filter and a bunch of ceramic ring biomedia. The fine filtration can be handled with polyfil sheets that they sell in a roll at walmart, stuff works great and it's cheap. Just don't take off your HOB filters for at least a month after installing the canister.


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## PfunMo

I find the Sunsun 304 B is working well for me on a 75 and it does come with media of several types. I don't necessarily feel the plastic bio-balls are totally the best for collecting bacteria but I find the bio media needs to be fairly low on planted tanks once they have some time to build the bacteria on all the surfaces. 
There are always things I like and don't on any filter I buy, so here are some things to watch on the 304B? The lever to shutoff flow and allow you to pull the tubing block out is suspect for too thin plastic. It is easy for the swivel connectors for tubing to let them swing and catch on the lever. Just don't bullmoose it and break the handle if it catches? Also I suddenly had trouble getting the flow after cleaning and found a new way to screw up. They did not build the block so that it only fits the correct way. I put the thing in backwards about six times before waking to the fact I had turned it around! Putting water in on the out doesn't work! If you do happen to break it, it's a five dollar item here:
https://petocart.com/index.php?route=pr ... lhEALw_wcB
Things I do like are that I do have two "extras" that I would normally not use but have found handy. The 304B does come with a surface skimmer and UV light. They are both just added bennies to me. But the best issue is that the intake/output plastic is a nice grey color and really cheap to buy or replace. I now run Sunsun plastic on my Eheims. Same size tubing and about $5-6 swap. I like the cheap easy supply of parts better than arm and leg Eheim parts. Far, far quieter than HOB and do use less power to produce less heat in the house. 
Never a perfect filter though.


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## dalto

Are you sure you need new filters? Why do you think you have poor filtration?


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## caldwelldaniel26

Just curious also, what exactly were the problems that caused you to lose your first group of fish?


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## GirlsMommy1215

they all got sick ( ich ) and we didnt catch it in time and didnt know much about treating it tried everything but was very unsuccessful, and he believes poor filtration because we are just using cheap HOB filters from petsmart and walmart and he feels like its just filtering the top and not filtering the bottom of the tank which he believes could be another reason nitrite is so high and now lowering, just bought a canister and the smartstart complete should be here in 3 days.


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## caldwelldaniel26

Well you'll definitely be better off in the long run going with a good canister filter over inadequate filtration. Just make sure you leave your HOB's running for a month with the canister filter and remove only the weakest one. You need at least 480 GPH of water turnover for adequate filtration and 600 at the top of the spectrum. Which canister did you end up deciding on?


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## dalto

Just my opinion, but I believe the reason your nitrites are high is because you added a whole bunch of fish to an uncycled tank. That being said, more filtration certainly won't hurt the situation. I probably wouldn't remove any of the filters until your tank is done cycling. When you do remove it/them make sure you put the filter material from the HOB in your canister.


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## GirlsMommy1215

he ordered the sunsun for now thats whats in the budget right now . and when they say the filter media do they mean the water or the carbon thats actually in the filter pads.


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## caldwelldaniel26

I agree dalto, it's several issues at work. Number one is the bioload on an uncycled tank, two is lack of sufficient biological filtration and three is inexperience. All these things could be avoided with proper research and a responsible LFS, which are extremely hard to come by. Girlsmom, please promise me that after we get you through this, you will research each and every fish in your tank and any future possible additions before adding them or at least ask a senior keepers advice NOT THE LFS lol! Also promise that you will do weekly water changes of 50% based upon the current bioload, I think that will be sufficient. Feed one good meal a day, preferably NLS cichlid formula, only 6 days a week. Do not feed more than they can eat within a minute or less. If a lot is hitting the substrate it's probably too much. If you follow these simple guidelines then you'll have healthy fish. I've got a great idea for one of your Walmart filters, buy a 10 gallon tank and throw it on there with a couple of small but hardy fish like danios. USE THIS TANK TO QUARANTINE ANY NEW FISH!!! Then you won't have to worry about diseases eradicating your entire stock.


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## caldwelldaniel26

GirlsMommy1215 said:


> he ordered the sunsun for now thats whats in the budget right now . and when they say the filter media do they mean the water or the carbon thats actually in the filter pads.


They're talking about taking the whole pad out of the HOB filter and putting it in the canister. I'd leave your two best HOB's running though and use the third smallest one for a quarantine/hospital tank after your filtration gets well established.


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## caldwelldaniel26

Just to add a little more clarification to the term "filter media" The term means anything in the filter that reacts or changes water quality in any way. There's mechanical filter media (removes visible particles from the water) biological filter media (holds beneficial bacteria that convert ammonia into nitrates and nitrogen in some cases) and chemical filtration (actually removes chemical compounds from the water by absorption or adsorption, i.e. activated carbon, purigen, zeolites)


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## GirlsMommy1215

thats our plan to get a quarantine tank we were actually just talking about that .. and we have learned through these passed couple of days with you guys and from what they have told us previously that our LFS suck unfortunately we have been researching the fish we have in there currently and *** been doing alot of research on this page as well going through all the topics and discussion boards.


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## caldwelldaniel26

Unfortunately, there are many fish stores that are just in it for the money and they don't care about the fish or the customers. We're all glad to help any way we can, I enjoy helping people get established in the hobby just as much as keeping fish.


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## GirlsMommy1215

i really appreciate it . i see how dedicated he is *** told him time n time again to wait and hes jus so impatient so i deff agree with him starting to early and putting fish in to early so mow im just trying to get him as much help as possible so he doesnt loose these fish ..


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## caldwelldaniel26

No problem, that's what I joined the forum for. I was the same way in the beginning and had to be reigned in by my wife also lol. You made the right choice getting on the forum though, there's a wealth of information and you can learn from other people's mistakes lol.


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## GirlsMommy1215

lol . i appreciate all of it he finally listens now lol .


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## caldwelldaniel26

Lol, good things take time, good things come to those who wait and last but not least anything worth having is worth waiting for... Are there any more? Oh yeah patience is a virtue lol.


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## GirlsMommy1215

lol . i believe it . i see it . being 9 months pregnant dealing with him and this fish tank , this page has saved alot of stress .


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## caldwelldaniel26

Oh wow congrats, we just had a baby girl in January. My wife would have killed me though lol! You ma'am are a saint, keep me updated on the nitrites daily.


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## GirlsMommy1215

tested this morning ammonia was 0.25 and nitrites look like they are lowering but still around 1.0 . did the 4th day treatmemt of safestart this morning as well gonna check it again tomorrow morning and do a 50percent water change.


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## caldwelldaniel26

Sounds good, just remember to put 6 tablespoons of salt back in when you do your 50% water change. Oh yeah and is the new canister going to get there at the same time as the Startsmart?


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## GirlsMommy1215

yes sir !!! and yess it will be we paid for shipping for them to come on the same day !!!


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## caldwelldaniel26

Good deal, just pour the bottle of Startsmart into the canister itself then top it off with dechlorinated water but don't fill it more than an inch from the top, put the top on and buckle it down and connect your inlet and return hoses, I like to use a small cooking funnel and a cup for this, but stick the funnel into the end of the inlet hose and fill it up most of the way with dechlorinated water, then carefully connect your inlet pipe and strainer and plug in the pump. It will help get the pump going and you may or may not have to pump away on the primer button but it certainly makes it easier if you fill the hoses first.


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## GirlsMommy1215

okay ill let him know that. that you


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## caldwelldaniel26

You're very welcome


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## GirlsMommy1215

he was wondering what you feed yours hes seen multiple people say pellets, frozen food, and home made , what do u feel is best.


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## caldwelldaniel26

I feed NLS cichlid formula, it's a very good, complete food and it has garlic for immune system health. You can feed the frozen foods as a treat once a week with haps and peacocks, a no no for Mbuna. I sometimes feed red worms that I've sprinkled a generous amount of garlic powder in the dirt so the worms eat it and then the fish get it as well. I like to skip a day or two without feeding especially two after feeding whole foods like worms or brine shrimp so they have time to digest before packing more in behind it.


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## GirlsMommy1215

Goodmorning , sorry for the late reply we do use the NLS pellets along with frozen Cichlid Delight once weekly or bi weekly . but we did a 50 percent water change this morning a d below are the readings afterwards . to us it looks like nitrite has came down some .


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## caldwelldaniel26

Good morning! Yeah it does look as if it's come down some. The ammonia reading could be a false positive from the prime or from the chloramine in the tap water. Did you redose the salt


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## GirlsMommy1215

yes sir . did the 6 tablespoons . moved around rocks and rinced it down and siphoned the sand . fish still very active and healthy. amazon order went out for shipment today .


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## caldwelldaniel26

I'm glad that the fish are still doing okay despite everything, as long as nobody is showing signs of distress, we're doing something right lol.


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## GirlsMommy1215

im continuing with the safestart dose as well until smart start arrives correct ?


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## caldwelldaniel26

Yeah, it can't hurt anything to keep doing that for now if you already have the stuff there.


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## GirlsMommy1215

okay good , i just want to keep them healthy.


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## GirlsMommy1215

goodmorning , now my boyfriend is stressing me out nitrite is still reading what it read yesterday morning and he is becoming more stressed about it . what should he do ??


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## Aaron S

Just to double check... you have read the directions for how to take the tests, right? They each have a given time you have to wait before reading the results (I think it is 5min for the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate and immediately for pH).

It looks like the nitrite reading is off the chart, so if that is true you can half the amount of nitrites and still be beyond the scale.


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## caldwelldaniel26

Aaron S said:


> Just to double check... you have read the directions for how to take the tests, right? They each have a given time you have to wait before reading the results (I think it is 5min for the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate and immediately for pH).
> 
> It looks like the nitrite reading is off the chart, so if that is true you can half the amount of nitrites and still be beyond the scale.


It's supposed to be 1.0 nitrite not 10, that would mean instant death for the fish if it were that high.


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## GirlsMommy1215

the 10.0 was how the strips read it . we now have the master kit and its reading 1.0ppm but to Caldwell my boyfriend is stressed out more now after yesterdays water change because its still at 1.0 but the canister and stuff should be here within the next day or so . he wanted to do another water change but wanted your opinion


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## caldwelldaniel26

That's very odd, your nitrite should be .5 after doing a 50% water change. Have you tested the tap water.


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## GirlsMommy1215

there was no nitrite in the tap water we did test it but this morning i tested water and nitrite is still reading what it read in the picture posted yesterday.. should he do another water change . ??


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## GirlsMommy1215

just tested the ammonia and nitrite in tap and tank


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## caldwelldaniel26

Whoa, you definitely have chloramine in your tap and a heavy dose of it too. If you want to do a water change again, I'd suggest doing another 50% because I think part of the issue here is that you have ammonia in the tap from chloramine and it's contributing to the nitrite issue. The nitrobacter colony that "eats" the nitrites, takes the longest to get established in healthy numbers so it's just going to take diligence with the salt, small water changes and patience until you can get the canister filter and the Startsmart added.


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## GirlsMommy1215

heavily dose it with conditioner and safestart?


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## caldwelldaniel26

No I was saying that your tap water has a lot of chloramine. You can use 5 times the normal dose of Prime to detox ammonia and nitrite for 24 hours but make sure the tank is well aerated. Unless you already bought a bunch of safestart and you just want to use it up, I wouldn't dose so much that you have to go get more of it.


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## GirlsMommy1215

okay . we jus finished the water change and measuring out the prime now . how long should he wait to test it??


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## caldwelldaniel26

You can test for nitrite but I'd wait until tomorrow for the ammonia


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## caldwelldaniel26

Are the fish still acting normally or are they showing signs of distress?


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## GirlsMommy1215

this is the nitrite .


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## GirlsMommy1215

still very active and happy and very colorful


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## caldwelldaniel26

Yeah that cut your nitrite down to .5 so that's good and the fish are doing okay so we're obviously cooking with fire just gotta get the rest of that bacteria going so we can all rest easy, especially since that little baby is going to be here soon!


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## GirlsMommy1215

lol !! yess, and we have alot of appreciation for you for sticking through this with us and helping us . my bf is a pretty tiring person especially when it comes to this fish tank. when should he do another water change


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## caldwelldaniel26

No problem, I would wait a couple of days and see what the nitrite test shows.


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## GirlsMommy1215

okay  thank you . should we still be adding prime or safestart in daily or no ?


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## caldwelldaniel26

Just keep doing what you've been doing, we don't need to change anything until the new filter and everything gets there.


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## GirlsMommy1215

this morning readings


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## caldwelldaniel26

Yeah, I'm really thinking that the filters you have just aren't capable of processing the waste quick enough. But that should be resolved soon when the new filter comes in. It looks like your pH could possibly be in the lower range so I'd test with that one and see what it reads


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## DJRansome

Meanwhile I would do a water change to get the nitrites down. What is your usual water change percent and frequency?


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## GirlsMommy1215

the passed couple days we've done 50 percent everyday... and Caldwell thats what he is starting to believe.. that the filtration sucks


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## DJRansome

While that may be true, it appears that you are also going through a cycle or mini cycle.

And you will need to do more than 50% daily to keep nitrites under 1ppm for fish health. 50% 2X daily or even 75% 2X daily seems to be called for.


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## caldwelldaniel26

When is the filter and everything due to arrive?


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## caldwelldaniel26

DJRansome said:


> While that may be true, it appears that you are also going through a cycle or mini cycle.
> 
> And you will need to do more than 50% daily to keep nitrites under 1ppm for fish health. 50% 2X daily or even 75% 2X daily seems to be called for.


I've got them dosing salt and prime to help neutralize and protect the fish from nitrite poisoning and 50% daily is dropping it down to .5 but there's a high amount of chloramine in the tap so when the ammonia is processed overnight it shoots back up to 1ppm. In this case, given the high amount of chloramine, I think that extra water changes above once daily would prove to be detrimental. So far the fish haven't been adversely affected by the whole ordeal because of the salt and prime. It's going through a cycle but I don't feel like there's enough biological filtration present to process the nitrite fast enough based on the information given.


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## dalto

DJRansome said:


> While that may be true, it appears that you are also going through a cycle or mini cycle.
> 
> And you will need to do more than 50% daily to keep nitrites under 1ppm for fish health. 50% 2X daily or even 75% 2X daily seems to be called for.


I agree with this, 100%.

I think that sometimes we overestimate the amount of bio-filtration needed in an aquarium. This tank has 3 hob filters on it. That is probably way more bio-filtration than is needed to cultivate denitrifying bacteria for this amount of fish. I think adding a canister is a great idea for the long-term but it isn't going to resolve this issue. In fact, it has a chance of disrupting the current situation.

This is a tank that had fish, was empty and now has fish again. It is going through a cycle of some sort and these additives are hit or miss propositions.

The ammonia present in the chloramines that your test kit is showing isn't free ammonia and isn't causing the nitrites to spike nearly as much as what is produced by the contents of the tank.

What you need to do is more frequent, larger water changes, feed sparingly and wait for the cycle to catch up. It isn't a sexy solution, it is a lot of work, but it has the greatest chance of keeping your fish healthy and alive.


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## caldwelldaniel26

dalto said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> 
> While that may be true, it appears that you are also going through a cycle or mini cycle.
> 
> And you will need to do more than 50% daily to keep nitrites under 1ppm for fish health. 50% 2X daily or even 75% 2X daily seems to be called for.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with this, 100%.
> 
> I think that sometimes we overestimate the amount of bio-filtration needed in an aquarium. This tank has 3 hob filters on it. That is probably way more bio-filtration than is needed to cultivate denitrifying bacteria for this amount of fish. I think adding a canister is a great idea for the long-term but it isn't going to resolve this issue. In fact, it has a chance of disrupting the current situation.
> 
> This is a tank that had fish, was empty and now has fish again. It is going through a cycle of some sort and these additives are hit or miss propositions.
> 
> The ammonia present in the chloramines that your test kit is showing isn't free ammonia and isn't causing the nitrites to spike nearly as much as what is produced by the contents of the tank.
> 
> What you need to do is more frequent, larger water changes, feed sparingly and wait for the cycle to catch up. It isn't a sexy solution, it is a lot of work, but it has the greatest chance of keeping your fish healthy and alive.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry dalto but you are wrong on a few points... The ammonia in chloramine is processed and oxidized the same way that any ammonia is. It doesn't just magically disappear and it doesn't just build up in the aquarium, so if it doesn't contribute to the nitrogen cycle, then where does it go. It has three HOB's that are underrated for the tank collectively by the way. Also the additives are not "hit or miss" salt is a well known remedy to lessen or prevent the effects of nitrite poisoning by inhibiting the uptake of nitrite. I agree that the tank is still in the midst of a cycle and never claimed it wasn't but I also believe that inadequate filtration is playing the main role. The fish are not showing any signs of distress otherwise I would be recommending more frequent water changes.


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## GirlsMommy1215

the canister should be here today and smartstart says between tomorrow and monday  .


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## caldwelldaniel26

That stinks, amazon is always messing up my orders and shipping stuff wrong. I've paid for two day shipping and got it a week later before...


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## GirlsMommy1215

yeah i paid for them to show up at the same time and go figure o had to reverify payment for the smartstart order  . would u still recommend atleast getting the canister filter going with safestart and prime ??


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## caldwelldaniel26

Yes it will be fine. Just leave your HOB's in place though. You still need them for a bit


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## dalto

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> I'm sorry dalto but you are wrong on a few points


I actually think our opinions aren't that far off. :wink:



caldwelldaniel26 said:


> The ammonia in chloramine is processed and oxidized the same way that any ammonia is. It doesn't just magically disappear and it doesn't just build up in the aquarium, so if it doesn't contribute to the nitrogen cycle, then where does it go.


I wasn't trying to imply any of those things. I probably wasn't clear enough but what I was trying to say was that I believe the ammonia in the chloramine does not contribute to nitrite significantly in comparison to the contribution from the fish and other biological material.



caldwelldaniel26 said:


> Also the additives are not "hit or miss" salt is a well known remedy to lessen or prevent the effects of nitrite poisoning by inhibiting the uptake of nitrite.


Again, I should have been more clear but I wasn't tanking about the salt. I was referring to the bacteria supplements. I agree that salt can lower the toxicity levels of nitrite.



caldwelldaniel26 said:


> It has three HOB's that are underrated for the tank collectively by the way.
> <snip>
> I also believe that inadequate filtration is playing the main role.


This is really the main point we disagree on. I think what they are seeing is totally normal for this point in a cycle. A nitrite spike that hangs around for a week or more. It should start coming down soon with or without more filtration.

Those three filters unless they are empty should have more than enough biological filtration material. It really shouldn't take that much. I guess there is an argument that the water flow isn't enough but I have never tested biological filtration in an environment like that so I couldn't say for sure. I tend it doubt it is a primary contributor though.


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## caldwelldaniel26

The reason why I think the tap is contributing to nitrites at this point in the cycle is the fact that the test read about 1ppm of ammonia from the tap. The amount of water turnover certainly has a lot to do with a filter's ability to remove contaminants. I should clarify that while there possibly could be enough biological material, I do not believe there is enough turnover. I've used Startsmart in the past and it worked for me, not a big fan of safestart though.


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## DJRansome

Although the new filter and bottled bacteria may help eventually...it does not get your nitrites down right away. That reading looks higher than 1ppm to me.


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## caldwelldaniel26

Yeah, it couldn't hurt to do a 75% water change before starting up the new filter...


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## Iggy Newcastle

Aaron S said:


> Just to double check... you have read the directions for how to take the tests, right? They each have a given time you have to wait before reading the results (I think it is 5min for the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate and immediately for pH).
> 
> It looks like the nitrite reading is off the chart, so if that is true you can half the amount of nitrites and still be beyond the scale.


I finally got through all this, and had to go back and pull this up from Aaron. Agree that the nitrite reading looks off the chart. Perhaps the strips were more accurate than originally thought.

I think the OP has received some great advice so far.

Your 50% water changes are not making much of a dent in the nitrite reading. Stop feeding your fish for a week. See if things start to stabilize for you. Your fish will not starve and die, nor will any of the beneficial bacteria that have colonized. As others have stated, you're in the middle of the cycle. It takes time. Provide strong, over the the top surface agitation. I imagine you're ok here with 3 hang on back filters.


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## caldwelldaniel26

The situation is being resolved, the OP has been in contact with me daily via email. The problem was and is an incomplete cycle and inadequate filtration from the undersized HOB's. The OP now has a canister filter and used Startsmart Complete yesterday evening so we will see what the test turns up tonight.


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## caldwelldaniel26

A side note, if the nitrite reading was "off the chart" for that long of a period of time, there would have been deaths but the OP reports no signs of distress from the fish and all are behaving normally. It may just be the lighting in the picture but the OP says it looks closest to 1ppm and I tend to believe that to be true since anything near 10 ppm would certainly be lethal also the nitrite would drop to .5 or less after a water change so it couldn't possibly be that high.


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## Iggy Newcastle

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> The situation is being resolved, the OP has been in contact with me daily via email. The problem was and is an incomplete cycle and inadequate filtration from the undersized HOB's. The OP now has a canister filter and used Startsmart Complete yesterday evening so we will see what the test turns up tonight.


Great. This forum encourages and welcomes thoughts, opinions and advice from all members. I weighed in on the situation, and brought up 2 things that had not been mentioned- stop feeding and surface agitation. Pretty common advice with a cycling/high nitrite issue.

And a new canister is great, but it won't help the immediate problem of an incomplete cycle. Brand new sponges/media does nothing. Hopefully the Tetra product kicks in and does the trick. In the long run the canister is certainly the way to go, no doubt. The 3 hang on backs may not be ideal, but if cycled properly beforehand they could easily handle 13 juvenile cichlids.

The first 3 photos of the Master kit results show a very deep purple. Whether that's 10, 5 or 1 ppm due to lighting, we were not seeing a change after 50% water changes until the 2nd to last photo which was lighter. Followed by a 5th which was again, a darker purple.

And lastly, skip nitrate testing until your nitrite is 0. It will not be accurate, and with all water changes you're doing it's a non issue.

Good luck GirlsMom. Hopefully everything gets under control soon. And congrats on the little one!


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## caldwelldaniel26

That's completely fine that you were trying to offer other advice. I was just letting you know I've gotten more details from the OP than what's included on the thread. It's not tetra safestart that the OP is using as of yesterday, it's Startsmart Complete made by TLC, it actually works...


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## caldwelldaniel26

Also, I am 100% fully aware that a new canister is going to take time to mature which is why I told the OP to leave on the HOB's to help seed the new filter and to increase aeration plus add salt to reduce nitrite toxicity. I have the formulas for salinity to basically neutralize the majority of nitrite from the test results that the OP was giving to me via email. I had the water test results immediately after water changes... Daily water changes plus salinity were keeping the fish safe from the effects of the nitrite. I don't feel in this case that it would have been necessary to quit feeding completely but I did instruct the OP to cut back on frequency and amount of feedings until the situation was resolved. Once again, this is why I was letting you know I've been in contact with them daily to avoid redundancy or confusion. I've covered all the bases and I'm sorry if I offended you Iggy because I respect you as a fellow keeper.


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## Iggy Newcastle

No worries. Not offended.

How I read what was quoted above was essentially that this thread was basically finished and no further input was needed or desired. Usually that comes from the OP.


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## caldwelldaniel26

My apologies, that was not the intention.


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## Iggy Newcastle

:thumb:


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## GirlsMommy1215

i just want to take the time to say thank you to everyone , Caldwell has successfully got us through this tough process !!! without any deaths . i know this thread is long i hope many new fish owners can use this for guidance !!!!


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## GirlsMommy1215

my updated readings!!!! thank you caldwell !!!!


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## caldwelldaniel26

No problem, it was my pleasure to help y'all get on the right track as quickly and painlessly as possible. Thanks for being so diligent in following the guidelines. Success is due to the effort y'all put forth to make it happen, I just gave the information.


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## Old Newbie

GirlsMommy1215 said:


> my updated readings!!!! thank you caldwell !!!!


That StartSmart is good stuff! It's the only bottled bacteria that I have had any success with, and, it worked in 24 hours as advertised


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## Iggy Newcastle

Apparently it does work. I've used One and Only with success as well.


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## caldwelldaniel26

Old Newbie said:


> GirlsMommy1215 said:
> 
> 
> 
> my updated readings!!!! thank you caldwell !!!!
> 
> 
> 
> That StartSmart is good stuff! It's the only bottled bacteria that I have had any success with, and, it worked in 24 hours as advertised
Click to expand...

Same here and I've used practically every other bottled bacteria product on the market.


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