# Upgrading Tank - Need Advice



## briang8r (Jun 14, 2017)

Hello:

I am upgrading my setup from a 90 gallon to a 180 gallon. Current tank is haps/peacocks with several sydontis. Unfortunately, I don't have space to run them concurrently for any period of time. Both tanks are drilled with sumps. I was wondering if you guys could help me out with a few questions:

1. What is the safest way to make it fish ready utilizing the existing materials (bio-balls, matrix, rocks, substrate, tank water,etc.)? Is it possible to do this and move my fish straight in? 
2. I was going to use several 5 gallon buckets with air stones in them while we did our best to break down and set up the new tank. Is this too ambitious? This is the first time I've ever upgraded my tank since I've started in the hobby. 
3. The tank I am buying was setup as a reef tank. I was wondering how you would set up the sump (pic below - sorry, it's the only one I have until I pick it up this weekend). This is a different configuration than my current sump, so I was looking for some ideas.










Thank you!

Brian


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

If you move the same fish from one tank to the other, you can do this in one day. Just move the filter media over as well and everything should be fine.

Buckets are a bit small. I would buy some cheap plastic totes from Walmart or some such place. They give you more space to store stuff and also house the fish for as long as it takes. Get a cheap air pump if you don't have one, and put some airstones in the tote(s) with the fish. If you have any plants, especially Java Moss, put it in the totes with the fish. It helps them a lot.

There is no point in transferring water from one tank to the other. BBs are on surfaces - filter media, rocks, and substrate. The more you can transfer over the better. Use new water, just make sure to dechlorinate it and get it to the right temperature.

That sump looks good. Since you have it anyhow, why not use it! For what it's worth, my preferred filter medium is Poret filter foam. I would put a large sheet of the thickest, coarsest foam in the middle of the sump like a tank divider. That should filter a 180G easily. All the other media would be icing on the cake. 

A 180G is a great size to have. Enjoy!


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## ken31cayman (Apr 15, 2018)

This sump setup looks just like the one in my 450gal. The pipes with the 'U' at the top are the intakes and go in your overflows, and the pipes with the black spout ends are your returns and also fit in your overflows.

1. Install the intake & return pipes securely in your overflows. I never use teflon tape, just hand-tighten then 1/16 or less turn with a wrench.
2. Connect the grey hoses to your intakes and the other ends to the top of the sump. 
3. Connect the clear hoses to your returns and the other ends to your pump. 
4. Fill with water.

I'd strongly advise you set this tank up and run for at least a day. With both my 180gal and my 450gal setups there were some leaks at the bulkheads that I had to rectify. Make sure everything is running, with no leaks, before doing your changeover.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

That's good advice by ken31cayman. A canister filter you can hook up and expect it to run perfectly right away. Once you have bulkheads, there is a very high chance you initially have issues that need to be ironed out.


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## GulfCoastGuy (Aug 5, 2018)

Be sure to keep everything wet during the changeover.

Questions - How many drains does the 180g have? What size(s) are they? Center overflow or corner(s)?
If only one drain you may want to look into adding one more. I personally won't run with a single drain to a sump. The flood risk is just to high for me. Also with two you can setup a Herbie drain which is quiet to silent and flows an incredible amount of water (I tested mine to over 2000 GPH with a single 1-1/4" drain using the second as an emergency drain)

As for laying out the sump - sell the skimmer unless you plan a marine tank in your future. You can't use it for freshwater. It won't work. If you have loose media (bio-balls, Matrix, etc.) you can place it in the bottom of the middle chamber either loose or in media bags. The sump looks setup for socks which people either love or hate. I like 'em if I buy a bunch (8-10 or more). Then I can change them out easily and wash a big load (standard laundry washer) when the supply of clean socks gets low. Full empty load first , hot, no soap (maybe bleach) to clear the washer then add the socks - full load,heavy duty, hot, no soap with 1-2 cap fulls of pure plain bleach (no frills, perfumes, additives, nothing - just pure chlorine bleach). You can run an extra rinse if you like. Then air dry for at least 48 hrs to get rid of any residual chlorine.

GCG


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## briang8r (Jun 14, 2017)

fmueller said:


> If you move the same fish from one tank to the other, you can do this in one day. Just move the filter media over as well and everything should be fine.
> 
> Buckets are a bit small. I would buy some cheap plastic totes from Walmart or some such place. They give you more space to store stuff and also house the fish for as long as it takes. Get a cheap air pump if you don't have one, and put some airstones in the tote(s) with the fish. If you have any plants, especially Java Moss, put it in the totes with the fish. It helps them a lot.
> 
> ...


Thank you. The totes are a fantastic sugestion. I will go buy a couple of new ones. I'll use the existing media, sand, rocks, etc. with new water and treat with Prime before adding the fish.


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## briang8r (Jun 14, 2017)

ken31cayman said:


> This sump setup looks just like the one in my 450gal. The pipes with the 'U' at the top are the intakes and go in your overflows, and the pipes with the black spout ends are your returns and also fit in your overflows.
> 
> 1. Install the intake & return pipes securely in your overflows. I never use teflon tape, just hand-tighten then 1/16 or less turn with a wrench.
> 2. Connect the grey hoses to your intakes and the other ends to the top of the sump.
> ...


Thank you. I'll see what I can do. The problem is the 180 is going exactly where my 90 is now. I'll have to get creative with seeing if I can move the 90...which won't be easy.


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## briang8r (Jun 14, 2017)

GulfCoastGuy said:


> Be sure to keep everything wet during the changeover.
> 
> Questions - How many drains does the 180g have? What size(s) are they? Center overflow or corner(s)?
> If only one drain you may want to look into adding one more. I personally won't run with a single drain to a sump. The flood risk is just to high for me. Also with two you can setup a Herbie drain which is quiet to silent and flows an incredible amount of water (I tested mine to over 2000 GPH with a single 1-1/4" drain using the second as an emergency drain)
> ...


The guy I am buying it from is going to keep the skimmer and give me $100 off the tank, so score. It is an Aqueon tank with 2 megaflow drains. They aren't corner drains, but are off centered. I do have existing bio balls. I modified my current sump to drain through filter media onto a drip plate and over the bio balls. I have read where bio balls shouldn't be completely submerged. Is that true? I also have some matrix in the sump as well that I was going to transfer over. I also have a good sized sponge that I was going to at least put in the sump somewhere loose to help establish the tank. I think I want to keep the socks this time, but then I wouldn't be able to trickle over the bio balls (they would be submerged). Could I put a piece of foam in that narrow chamber by where the pumps go? Thanks for all of the suggestions and help everyone! I'm excited to get this new setup going, but nervous because my 90 runs perfectly.


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## GulfCoastGuy (Aug 5, 2018)

Trickling water over bio media is all about one thing - oxygenating the water so the bacteria has enough to do its job. Being submerged won't mater. Sumps (especially sumps with a lots of baffles) will keep the water well oxygenated as the water cascades. Reefers never do the trickle thing because of the issue with salt creep. All their bio media stays fully submerged.

The Matrix will out perform the bio-balls by an enormous margin. The specific surface area of Matrix is some of the highest in the hobby. I have 8L going in my new tank. I crunched the numbers and after accounting for the extra small pores that aren't bio-beneficial that gives me a specific surface area about the size of 1.5 US football fields including end zones. I'm using extra in hopes of establishing anaerobic zones for de-nitrification. 82,500 sq ft makes a home for a bunch of bacteria.

Add the sponge if you like but if the Matrix is from an established mature tank it should be enough to start up the new tank. You may not even go through a mini-cycle. Test anyway (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate ... you know the drill) just to be safe.

I know the tank overflow configuration you're talking about, one drain and one return in each overflow box. This makes a Herbie a tough job and tricky to tune. Here is the best tutorial I know of for a Herbie drain and his thoughts on your setup in particular.

http://gmacreef.com/herbie-overflow-reef-tank-plumbing-method-basics/

http://gmacreef.com/herbie-dual-overflows/


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## GulfCoastGuy (Aug 5, 2018)

The baffle just before the return pump chamber needs foam to act as a bubble trap.


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## briang8r (Jun 14, 2017)

GulfCoastGuy said:


> Trickling water over bio media is all about one thing - oxygenating the water so the bacteria has enough to do its job. Being submerged won't mater. Sumps (especially sumps with a lots of baffles) will keep the water well oxygenated as the water cascades. Reefers never do the trickle thing because of the issue with salt creep. All their bio media stays fully submerged.
> 
> The Matrix will out perform the bio-balls by an enormous margin. The specific surface area of Matrix is some of the highest in the hobby. I have 8L going in my new tank. I crunched the numbers and after accounting for the extra small pores that aren't bio-beneficial that gives me a specific surface area about the size of 1.5 US football fields including end zones. I'm using extra in hopes of establishing anaerobic zones for de-nitrification. 82,500 sq ft makes a home for a bunch of bacteria.
> 
> ...


Thank you for all of the great information. I have 1L of Matrix in my current tank, and almost a 5 gallon bucket full of bio balls. I'll buy a couple more liters of matrix/bags and phase out the balls. Do you use Purigen? I do in the old tank, but would need much more obviously for the new one. You are correct about the tank configuration. It's the same as I have in the 90 gallon (only it has a single megaflow box). It gurgles a bit, but I put insulation Styrofoam-type board around the side walls/doors of the stand and it made a big difference with the sound.


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## GulfCoastGuy (Aug 5, 2018)

I don't use Purigen. I have in the past but I moved on to planted tanks and it messed up my NO3 dosing.

You have an opportunity to use Option 2 of the Herbie for dual overflows method. My new tank (141g) runs almost silently at roughly 7x turnover with one. As I recall the Aqueon over flows are plastic and black. A little work and you could install the balance pipe and be set. If installed low in the tank, painted to blend, and hidden in it could work. The only departure from intended operation would be an over the rim return.


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## briang8r (Jun 14, 2017)

GulfCoastGuy said:


> I don't use Purigen. I have in the past but I moved on to planted tanks and it messed up my NO3 dosing.
> 
> You have an opportunity to use Option 2 of the Herbie for dual overflows method. My new tank (141g) runs almost silently at roughly 7x turnover with one. As I recall the Aqueon over flows are plastic and black. A little work and you could install the balance pipe and be set. If installed low in the tank, painted to blend, and hidden in it could work. The only departure from intended operation would be an over the rim return.


So it would be something like in this video here? I have 2 pumps, so would I need to join the return pipe?


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## GulfCoastGuy (Aug 5, 2018)

Here's a link to the White Paper on Matrix's Specific Surface Area vs. a couple of other popular (at the time) bio-media.

https://www.seachem.com/downloads/articles/Specific-Surface.pdf


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## GulfCoastGuy (Aug 5, 2018)

Can't get to YouTube right now. I'm at work and it's blocked. (shhhhh)


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## ken31cayman (Apr 15, 2018)

briang8r said:


> ken31cayman said:
> 
> 
> > This sump setup looks just like the one in my 450gal. The pipes with the 'U' at the top are the intakes and go in your overflows, and the pipes with the black spout ends are your returns and also fit in your overflows.
> ...


When you have it in hand and can see everything, the steps I wrote should be pretty clear I think. Make sure and clean everything, including the bottom of the overflows. When you install the pipes in the overflows you want the bulkheads to have nice, clean contact with the overflow glass/acrylic bottom.

Regarding the 180gal going in the same place: the best solution in my opinion is to empty the 90gal down to a couple of inches, then push or move it out of the way a distance, fill it back up and run it normally until your 180gal is confirmed setup & working properly. This is basically what I did with my 180gal when I received the 450gal. Then afterward my wife said it was ok to keep both Good luck.


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## GulfCoastGuy (Aug 5, 2018)

I watched it on my phone.

Yup - Just one point.

Using the larger pipe as the full siphon is a No-No. The "Open Channel" is an emergency drain and should not have more than seeping flow during normal operation. (some say none).

The emergency drain MUST be able to take ALL of the flow if the full siphon is blocked for any reason. I know he showed that his tank could take every thing that his return pump chamber could hold but that doesn't take into account the volume IF the baffle to the return pump chamber is somehow compromised and leaks.

...But did you notice how quiet it was? Beautiful. Gotta love a Herbie Overflow.


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## GulfCoastGuy (Aug 5, 2018)

briang8r said:


> I have 2 pumps, so would I need to join the return pipe?


Or just run two return lines - probably easier.


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## briang8r (Jun 14, 2017)

GulfCoastGuy said:


> Here's a link to the White Paper on Matrix's Specific Surface Area vs. a couple of other popular (at the time) bio-media.
> 
> https://www.seachem.com/downloads/articles/Specific-Surface.pdf


Wow, that's interesting. Seems like Matrix is the way to go. I found a decent deal on the 4L size. Would 5L total be enough for 180 gallons in your opinion? Their site says to use 250ml per 50 gallons, which would indicate that the 1L I have is enough, but that doesn't seem right.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Don't forget the manufacturer is providing that article. Inexpensive biomedia like pot scrubbers are extremely effective and many times more surface area than needed to support an overstocked tank.


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## GulfCoastGuy (Aug 5, 2018)

I'm only using 8L to have enough to take a stab at de-nitrification and I'm using Pond Matrix (same porous stone just larger pieces). 5L will be plenty. I put mine in zippered media bags. It makes for easy handling when rinse time comes. Unzip a couple of bags, pour into a plastic colander, rinse in some tank water, back in the bags, zip, back in the sump, acquire cool adult beverage ... done.


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## GulfCoastGuy (Aug 5, 2018)

DJRansome said:


> Don't forget the manufacturer is providing that article. Inexpensive biomedia like pot scrubbers are extremely effective and many times more surface area than needed to support an overstocked tank.


Can't argue and I've used them. I found a deal on the PM - $18 for 4L (don't ask me how I managed it, I'm still scratching my head) so I bought two buckets. In the grand scheme even at full price it's not that expensive compared to the cost of a full setup or even the cost of good stock.

For my application (ie. the "attempt" at de-nitrification) pot scrubbers wouldn't have worked. Nowhere to establish an anaerobic zone for the required bacteria.


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## briang8r (Jun 14, 2017)

ken31cayman said:


> briang8r said:
> 
> 
> > ken31cayman said:
> ...


Thank you. There is 0% chance of my wife approving 2 tanks. I can barely get her to stipulate to my hospital tank LOL.


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## briang8r (Jun 14, 2017)

GulfCoastGuy said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> > Don't forget the manufacturer is providing that article. Inexpensive biomedia like pot scrubbers are extremely effective and many times more surface area than needed to support an overstocked tank.
> ...


I found 4L of Matrix for $32 on the gigantic online retailer (would need to buy bags also). They also have 6 1lb zippered bags of ceramic rings for $20. It's not a huge price difference, but just wondering if I would notice the difference in performance. Scrubbies are cheap too, but I've never used them. Would they also go in media bags? I just want to make sure that I am providing more than enough surface area to keep the tank healthy.


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## GulfCoastGuy (Aug 5, 2018)

Scrubbers work well but best in very well oxygenated water such as a trickle wet/dry type. They should be OK in the sump you showed. No need to put them in bags, just dump a boatload into the center chamber. Best thing is they are inexpensive. $2 for a bunch at Family Dollar or similar. Easy to rinse just be sure to only rinse a few each time. They ARE a very viable choice for the budget minded.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Choose Pond Matrix instead of regular Matrix as it's usually much cheaper depending on which website or store you buy it from.

Use lingerie type zippered bags made for holding 'delicates' in the washing machine rather than aquarium media bags, much cheaper and serve the same purpose. They come in a variety of sizes, just choose ones that are easy to handle when full of media. I've used them in my xl Eheim canister filters for years without any problems.


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## GulfCoastGuy (Aug 5, 2018)

Good call on the wash bags. Best to check that what you get has plastic zippers including the pull. Too late for me.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

GulfCoastGuy said:


> Good call on the wash bags. Best to check that what you get has plastic zippers including the pull. Too late for me.


I actually have both types, one with the metal zipper/pull and 2 with the plastic zipper/pull and have noticed no difference. I do prefer the plastic zipper as the teeth mesh together better when closing the bags.


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## GulfCoastGuy (Aug 5, 2018)

Deeda said:


> GulfCoastGuy said:
> 
> 
> > Good call on the wash bags. Best to check that what you get has plastic zippers including the pull. Too late for me.
> ...


I just don't like anything that's metal in the tank for extended periods of time. Don't mind a brass fitting in the path during a water change or something similar but metal in the water column on an ongoing basis bugs me. The exception is the known safe items like stainless and titanium.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

GulfCoastGuy said:


> Trickling water over bio media is all about one thing - oxygenating the water so the bacteria has enough to do its job.


In my experience this is the secret to successful fish keeping in one sentence! In the nitrogen cycle, you need lots of oxygen to turn ammonia into nitrite (NH3 + O2 → NO2-). You need more oxygen to break down any organic material. Those are mostly hydrocarbons, consisting of C and H. The C goes to CO2 and the H to H20. People who rely on a rippling surface to bring enough oxygen into a tank are doing themselves a disservice. It will work, but in case anything goes wrong, it can very easily come to an oxygen shortage. When any of these processes fail due to lack of oxygen, you immediately have toxins in the water, and you will have dead fish.



GulfCoastGuy said:


> The specific surface area of Matrix is some of the highest in the hobby.


That might be true, but remember, it is all about one thing - oxygenating the water! ;-)

Oxygen is the limiting factor. Surface area virtually never - well unless you have a bare bottom tank with no decorations and an empty filter cartridge. Bacteria will settle on any surface, be it in the filter or in the tank. Of course it doesn't hurt to have more surface area, but it doesn't help either.

The take home message is, make sure that the water in your tanks is saturated with oxygen. If you buy expensive bio media to maximize surface area, but neglect oxygenation, you are wasting your money.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

GulfCoastGuy said:


> I just don't like anything that's metal in the tank for extended periods of time. Don't mind a brass fitting in the path during a water change or something similar but metal in the water column on an ongoing basis bugs me. The exception is the known safe items like stainless and titanium.


That is an issue for marine tanks where you have organisms that are extremely sensitive to trace amounts of metals. It's entirely irrelevant in a cichlid tank. There are many uses for metal in a tank. You can use wire or plant staples to attach plants to rocks or wood, there are these little lead bands to weigh plants down, I have screwed driftwood to rocks to make it sink, and so on, and so on.



GulfCoastGuy said:


> For my application (ie. the "attempt" at de-nitrification) pot scrubbers wouldn't have worked. Nowhere to establish an anaerobic zone for the required bacteria.


That gives me the creeps. As discussed, it is all about oxygenation, and then people want to establish anaerobic (oxygen free) zones in a tank? Frankly, I have never been able to see how people envisage having a well oxygenated tank, and then circulating that oxygen laden water through oxygen free zones. I have yet to find somebody who can explain to me how that is supposed to work.

But let's assume you can make that happen, bacteria that don't work with oxygen most often use sulfur instead. The end product of their metabolism is not H2O but H2S, which is super poisonous! If you ever had a tank with a very fine sand-bed that was too deep for the water to penetrate all the way down, you know what an anaerobic zone smells like when you stir it up. In that case the H2S usually just dissipates and stinks out the room, but then you never had water circulating through those areas. If you had, the H2S would end up in the water. How are you going to avoid those processes?

The whole denitrification idea is suspect to me in a fish tank. If you don't like doing regular water changes - and who does - invest in an automatic water change system. A drip system can be a $40 DIY project. And changing the water has countless benefits in addition to removing nitrate.

Finally, regarding pot scrubbers, be very careful what you use. I put a bunch of them in a canister filter, and it turns out they were some environmentally friendly, biodegradable version. Looked exactly like regular pot scrubbers, and it said nothing about that on the label. For some other reason I don't recall, I had to open the filter again after a few days. I was overwhelmed by the stench, and cleaning up the filter was like unblocking a toilet - disgusting!

I was lucky to catch it, because within another few days my ammonia levels would have been through the roof. I have stayed clear of pot scrubbers ever since. :lol:

Also, pot scrubbers - like pretty much any other foam material you can buy outside of the fish keeping market - is closed pored foam. It's a completely different manufacturing process leading to an entirely different product than open pored foam. Poret is an open pored foam. The main sales argument is of course a larger surface are for bacteria, but again, I think this is mostly marketing hype. More importantly, it takes a very long time for open pored foam to load up with debris. That means with a sheet of Poret in the sump as divider, you can go for month between cleanings. Closed pored foam loads up very quickly by comparison.


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## GulfCoastGuy (Aug 5, 2018)

fmueller said:


> GulfCoastGuy said:
> 
> 
> > I just don't like anything that's metal in the tank for extended periods of time. Don't mind a brass fitting in the path during a water change or something similar but metal in the water column on an ongoing basis bugs me. The exception is the known safe items like stainless and titanium.
> ...


Thanks for that. I guess old preconceived notions are hard to let go.



GulfCoastGuy said:


> For my application (ie. the "attempt" at de-nitrification) pot scrubbers wouldn't have worked. Nowhere to establish an anaerobic zone for the required bacteria.





fmueller said:


> That gives me the creeps. As discussed, it is all about oxygenation, and then people want to establish anaerobic (oxygen free) zones in a tank? Frankly, I have never been able to see how people envisage having a well oxygenated tank, and then circulating that oxygen laden water through oxygen free zones. I have yet to find somebody who can explain to me how that is supposed to work.


With some luck I hope to stack the bio media in a way that reduces the flow to a portion of it by diverting the flow to a path of lesser resistance in the sump. Hopefully this will allow for some oxygen depletion in the lower flow depth in the "pile" and the additional depletion in the stones near the surface of the media (Pond Marix) will further deplete the oxygen and in-turn allow for anaerobic processes more toward the center of those stones. Long shot but worth a try IMO.



fmueller said:


> But let's assume you can make that happen, bacteria that don't work with oxygen most often use sulfur instead. The end product of their metabolism is not H2O but H2S, which is super poisonous! If you ever had a tank with a very fine sand-bed that was too deep for the water to penetrate all the way down, you know what an anaerobic zone smells like when you stir it up. In that case the H2S usually just dissipates and stinks out the room, but then you never had water circulating through those areas. If you had, the H2S would end up in the water. How are you going to avoid those processes?


I'm using Seachem Stability. They claim that their strain of anaerobic bacteria isn't sulfur fixing. Before you make the obligatory comment, no I don't harbor some fairy tail dream that Seachem or any company out for profit is to be fully trusted but, nothing ventured ...



fmueller said:


> The whole denitrification idea is suspect to me in a fish tank. If you don't like doing regular water changes - and who does - invest in an automatic water change system. A drip system can be a $40 DIY project. And changing the water has countless benefits in addition to removing nitrate.


I'm planting this tank (Java Fern, Anubias, And Vals) and will be fertilizing, probably with the EI system which requires 50% weekly water changes. I'd be doing large frequent water changes anyway with or without the denitrification.



fmueller said:


> Finally, regarding pot scrubbers, be very careful what you use. I put a bunch of them in a canister filter, and it turns out they were some environmentally friendly, biodegradable version. Looked exactly like regular pot scrubbers, and it said nothing about that on the label. For some other reason I don't recall, I had to open the filter again after a few days. I was overwhelmed by the stench, and cleaning up the filter was like unblocking a toilet - disgusting!
> 
> I was lucky to catch it, because within another few days my ammonia levels would have been through the roof. I have stayed clear of pot scrubbers ever since. :lol:


Good info. Most of the pot scrubbers purchased for bio filter use in the US come from, let's say, stores frequented by the more budget conscious members of the population. They ARE inert and will probably out last any of the current standing governments or even our current civilization. But a head's up is always welcome.



fmueller said:


> Also, pot scrubbers - like pretty much any other foam material you can buy outside of the fish keeping market - is closed pored foam. It's a completely different manufacturing process leading to an entirely different product than open pored foam. Poret is an open pored foam. The main sales argument is of course a larger surface are for bacteria, but again, I think this is mostly marketing hype. More importantly, it takes a very long time for open pored foam to load up with debris. That means with a sheet of Poret in the sump as divider, you can go for month between cleanings. Closed pored foam loads up very quickly by comparison.


Never used Poret Foam so I can't speak to it, personally.

My effort here is to explore possibilities. Exploration should be taken on with the full expectation that nothing useful or even interesting may come of it. That expectation shouldn't prevent the attempt.

Thanks for the response and the discussion.

I hope @Briang8r got something from it.

GCG


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## GulfCoastGuy (Aug 5, 2018)

fmueller said:


> GulfCoastGuy said:
> 
> 
> > Trickling water over bio media is all about one thing - oxygenating the water so the bacteria has enough to do its job.
> ...


Good to find someone else preaching the gospel of oxygenation. It's one of the things I like about sumps, or specifically overflows. Best little oxygen generators around IMO. Not only do they fold surface water back on itself which pushes oxygenated water from the surface down deeper, it skims the surface, removes film, and replaces oxygenated water for less oxygenated water. All that maximizes the gas exchange by throwing the air/water interface further out of equilibrium.

One more benefit - if you keep plants, fully oxygenated water (ie. Oxygen saturated) is a prerequisite if you want to see your plants 'Pearl'.


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## briang8r (Jun 14, 2017)

fmueller said:


> GulfCoastGuy said:
> 
> 
> > Trickling water over bio media is all about one thing - oxygenating the water so the bacteria has enough to do its job.
> ...


How do I ensure that I am getting proper oxygenation as I put a plan together for the sump? Will going with the filter socks over a drip plate/bio balls have too much of a negative impact here?

Thanks again.


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## GulfCoastGuy (Aug 5, 2018)

One of your best friends in this regard as I said is the overflow. Believe it or not it's the cascading of the water that is the major contributor to oxygenation. Here's why.

Oxygenation only occurs at the air water interface. It's the only place it can. You increase it either by increasing the surface area or by increasing the rate of transfer or both.

The surface area can be increased by agitating the surface to form ripples. The higher the ripple amplitude the greater the effective surface area. Think of it like this. Take a plain piece of printer paper and lay it flat on a desk top. It covers a area exactly 8.5" x 11" that's how much of the desktop it takes up as well. Now press the edged toward each other lengthwise until a bulge forms in the center. The sheet of paper still has the same surface area but it takes up less of the top of the desk. Repeat that across the entire surface of the desk and you can see how rippling the water's surface can increase the surface area even though the dimensions of the tank don't change. But that's just one part of the equation. The next is to maximize the transfer rate.

There is a maximum point of oxygenation. This is called saturation. It's the greatest amount of oxygen that CAN be dissolved in the water at any given temperature and salinity. Here's a table that shows the relationship.

http://buzzardsbay.org/bbpreports/oxygen-saturation-table.pdf

For us that's best described at 0 salinity (Freshwater) and 25°C or 77°F. That value is 8.2ppm. Once you reach that level no further oxygen will naturally dissolve into water. Once there, at the air/water interface, all natural transfer ceases. The lower the concentration of O2 in the water the more rapid the transfer. Barring any kind of thermal barrier in the water a gradient will form with the highest level of oxygenation at the surface and lesser concentrations as you go deeper. To maximize the oxygenation throughout the water column one must move the highly oxygenated water from the surface and replace it with lesser oxygenated water from below. Power heads in the tank do a great job but for my money the heavy lifting takes place in the overflow box.

Assuming there is some fall from the weir to the water level in the OF box, you are constantly taking the most oxygenated water (at the surface) and plunging it down in a manner that will cause it to be carried faily deep below the surface of the water in the OF box. This does two things. First, it greatly increases the oxygenation of the water in the overflow box. Second, it skimms the tank surface and very effectively removes any surface film that may have been forming. Any such film is an impediment to gas exchange. This is why at every overflow location it's important to maintain some amount of fall. This goes for sump baffles as well, where possible. Everywhere you do you create a zone of incrementally higher gas exchange and improve overall oxygenation. From an oxygenation standpoint the last thing you want to see is an overflow where the water level remains constant across the weir or baffle. The down side of this is that if the fall is too great it will eventually be noisy. Manage this with flow rates and water levels. This requires observation of your system and some trial and error.

You see, the issue you raised about whether to use the socks or not is not that much of an issue at all. The water moving from the OF box to the sump is already some of the most oxygenated water in the system. It's perfectly suited for the task of bio-filtration and there should be more than enough for that job with plenty left over for your fish. A little bit of fall at every possible location combined with good levels of intank circulation will fairly guarantee very high levels of O2 available throughout the tank.

For the canister users much of the same benefit can be had with the addition of an in tank surface skimmer like this.

https://www.amazon.com/Koller-Products-Aquarium-Surface-Canisters/dp/B00176MUKY


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## Raam401 (Sep 20, 2018)

If you have a bathtub or one of these big "buckets" to bathe small children, it can house your fish for some time while you change the tanks ; that's what I did when I got a new one, I put the fish in a bucket for 2 minutes while I poured water from the tank in the bathtub with another bucket, then threw in a couple rocks and released the fish in the bathtub. Then, when the new tank was ready and filled with some gravel, plants and water, I, in the lack of a better word, fished my fish out of the bathtub and straight into the new tank.

Just make sure to give them rocks or other things like that, one of my fishkeeping friends tried to use my "trick" but put his tank's gravel and sand in the bathtub... I'll let you imagine how _fun_ it was to clean up that mess.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

First of all, let me say that I am all for experimentation. Whenever I set up a new show tank, I only keep a few ideas from previous setups that were so good that I can no longer do without them. In any other way I try to do things differently. Is that necessary? Certainly not, but I sure do enjoy playing around with things. The tank I am just about to complete has a sump above the tank level. I don't know if I would do that again, but it was fun to set up. ;-)

With that said, I believe denitrification depends on large distances between an oxygenated water layer and an anaerobic water layer. We are talking hundreds of feet. Lake Tanganyika is deep. In a tank environment I give this not a 10% chance of success, not 1%, but 0%. But I am looking forward to being proven wrong. 



GulfCoastGuy said:


> I'm using Seachem Stability. They claim that their strain of anaerobic bacteria isn't sulfur fixing. Before you make the obligatory comment, no I don't harbor some fairy tail dream that Seachem or any company out for profit is to be fully trusted but, nothing ventured ...


That's probably true. I would trust them to pick the right strain of bacteria. The real question is, how do you prevent sulfur based bacteria from establishing themselves in your anaerobic areas anyhow? If you have water with ammonia, bacteria turning the ammonia into nitrite and then nitrate will come without any need for seeding. They are ubiquitous. Unless somebody convinces me otherwise, I would assume that if you have anaerobic areas, sulfur based bacteria will come. They have come whenever I accidentally had anaerobic areas in a tank.



GulfCoastGuy said:


> I'm planting this tank (Java Fern, Anubias, And Vals) and will be fertilizing, probably with the EI system which requires 50% weekly water changes. I'd be doing large frequent water changes anyway with or without the denitrification.


Planted cichlid tanks are great. All my tanks have been planted with just the plants you are considering. I like the look and it also helps with algae control, because under the right conditions plants can outcompete algae for nutrients.

I am not familiar with the EI system but in my experience it is either high tech planted, meaning high wattage lighting, dosing CO2, and fertilizers; or low tech planted, meaning regular lighting, no CO2 and no fertilizers. In the latter case you are restricted in plant choice, but all on your list work well. Fertilizer comes from fish waste and CO2 comes from decaying organic matter. You will have slow plant growth compared to a high tech setup, but a tank can look stunning nevertheless.

What has never worked for me is using one of the high tech ingredients and not the other. That means if you want to dose fertilizer, you also need to dose CO2 and crank up the light. If you don't you will have terrible algae blooms, or at least that's what has invariably happened to me.



GulfCoastGuy said:


> Good info. Most of the pot scrubbers purchased for bio filter use in the US come from, let's say, stores frequented by the more budget conscious members of the population. They ARE inert and will probably out last any of the current standing governments or even our current civilization. But a head's up is always welcome.


I used to live in the US, I am not just budget conscious but downright cheap, so my scrubbers came from dollar tree. A whole bag of them for a buck. 



GulfCoastGuy said:


> My effort here is to explore possibilities. Exploration should be taken on with the full expectation that nothing useful or even interesting may come of it. That expectation shouldn't prevent the attempt.


 :thumb:


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

briang8r said:


> How do I ensure that I am getting proper oxygenation as I put a plan together for the sump? Will going with the filter socks over a drip plate/bio balls have too much of a negative impact here?


You got an excellent and very detailed explanation from GulfCoastGuy to this question. In a nutshell, if you have a sump system, there is usually a large pipe through which the water falls from the tank into your sump. I have always used a Durso Overflow for noise control. This will ensure oxygen is at saturation level all by itself. If you look at this kind of setup, the water comes out of the pipe almost as foam and full of air bubbles. Lots of tiny bubbles means there is a huge surface area for oxygen to enter the water. Basically, if you have a sump, there is no further need to do something like trickle plates or what have you, because you already have as much oxygen in the water as there can be.

Oxygenation is much more of an issue in tanks with a canister filter that has a submerged outflow. In this scenario, if you rely on a rippled tank surface for oxygenation, you are asking for trouble.


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