# Unexplained deaths



## bigcatsrus (Apr 15, 2009)

For the last couple of weeks I have been waking up to find at least one of my cockatoo cichlids have died. I started of with 6 and now down to 2.

I know my water parameters are fine. Weekly wc's, fed every other day. Now taken bloodworm out of their diet over a period of time. Were being fed bw once a week if that!

To start of with it wasn't the cockatoo's, I had 5 angelfish and now I'm down to 1. 2 were explained due to a heater malfunction but the other 2 weren't explained. In either specie no visable signs of poisioning or aggression as no fins were damaged. So I'm at a loss to why this keeps happening.

I don't think I have a water problem as I have my partners royal plec in my tank. If I did have a water problem I would guess that the royal plec would be the first to have died being a specical plec.

So any ideas to why this is happening guys and gals???

Thanks in advance

Charlene :thumb:


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## bigcatsrus (Apr 15, 2009)

Just checked my tank again and found the last female dead, so now just left with the male cockatoo.

So annoyed. All fish were from a good LFS and from the same batch. I'm now thinking it was a bad batch.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

How long did you had those apisto's? Over here in Europe most apisto's come from the Czech Republic, heavy invested with flagellates. I recommend to put new bought apisto's in a quarantine tank and start treating them with metronidazole right away and start feeding live foods like bloodworms and artemis to beef them up and gain health.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

If you are having unexplained angel deaths that is probably/possibly where the problem originated. I have had unexplained angel deaths over the years, with no symptoms of any kind. Whether it is the angel aids or something else, I have no idea. 
I do recall Jack Wattley saying years ago that he wouldn't feed bloodworms to his Discus for fear of parasites. The problem with frozen bloodworms is you can't be sure of their source or how they were cared for during their preperation. I have no problem feeding live ones, but, I know where they came from.


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## bigcatsrus (Apr 15, 2009)

Dutch Dude said:


> How long did you had those apisto's? Over here in Europe most apisto's come from the Czech Republic, heavy invested with flagellates. I recommend to put new bought apisto's in a quarantine tank and start treating them with metronidazole right away and start feeding live foods like bloodworms and artemis to beef them up and gain health.


I had them for less than 2 months, which is why I am a little frustrated. I paid over 30 uk pounds for these.


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## Pauliox1 (Mar 13, 2010)

I too have had my 3 Apistos die rather quickly. I bought a pair and after around a week the female got what seemed to be dropsy and died. I then got a replacment from the fish shop and it too died in exactly the same time span. My male has grown and has always been fine and I've had him for maybe 2-3 months and now he is showing signs that he's on his way out. My water quality is, as far as I can make out not the issue. I have a shoal of rummy nose tetras and 5 otocinclus in the same tank and they are all doing brilliantly. Quite a mystery.
Paul.


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## bigcatsrus (Apr 15, 2009)

I don't know what y guys had but they are just dropping.

I lost the last 2 females 3 days ago and lsat night lost my lsat male and last fish. I can't understand why they have just died off like they have. All my othr fish have been fine.


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## Electrophyste (Aug 5, 2009)

i wouldnt go as far as saying that your water is fine because your partners royal pleco is in there and its ok..

once upon a time i had mixed africans in a 75 with my royal, BN and clown plecos.... i went on a trip up north and when i had gotten back my girlfriend over feed my tank, the water looked like someone defficated in there.... and the only fish that survived were my pictus cats and Plecos,

well a couple STRONG africains but it was still too late for the africans, slowley each day one died after the other. BUT my cats and plecs are still alive to this day, well except for the pictus, they died in the move 

A Plecostumus is a catfish, whether its a common or a fancy, Catfish are hearty, and can take alot of punishment.

i noticed in your signature you also havea tang tank, i asume the water for boh tanks is comming from the same place, mabee you have hard water and your little apisttos need soft water.


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## Bearbear (May 8, 2010)

Can talk to your LFS where you bought them and ask about PH.
Mine uses city water except for Discus and other temperamental fish that are really PH specific.

If the fish are raised in a similar PH I don't bother with it at all.


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## bigcatsrus (Apr 15, 2009)

The water is coming from the same tap and its hard water.

I've never known my LFS to change the water hardness in there tanks, unless its discus for obvious reasons. They do treat for bacteria and other infections as such.

I know plecs are hardy to an extent but must have a limit.

I don't keep any plecs in my tang tank so I don't need to keep an eye on plecs. I've heard some of the horror stories and plecs getting killed.

I've decided to stick with hard water cichlids as I have the water for them already.

I know my angelfish should be in soft water but is thriving in the hard water.


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## Electrophyste (Aug 5, 2009)

i also live in an area where my water is hard, *** had pritty good success with soft water fish aswell though, my trick is wood.. and lots of it i have 3 root systems set up in my 110. and it makes for a good looking tank, very natural.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

The things you are experiencing right now is unfortunately quit common in Czech bread apisto's and Rams. I'm not a fan of medications but I see no other way around to OR buy from a local breeder OR treat them right away with metro or dimetro and start feeding high qualety live foods such as live artemis. Next goal can be to breed them rather sooner than later and those baby's will be normal healthy apisto's.

As to your angels,....what is their diet, what is your feeding regime, what are the foods they receive.

There is no such a thing as angel aids! There is an illness that is labeled as discus/angel plaque. Fish start rotting while still alive. No such thing in your stock.

How do you know you have no water problems? Have you measured it? Whats your cleaning regime? What is actualy your PH and GH?


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## Pauliox1 (Mar 13, 2010)

Well I know for sure my Apistos weren't wild ones as they were triple red. So these probably came from Czech? Wish I'd known about this before hand!


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Hi Pauliox,

There is a rather large chance they were from the Czech republic indeed. I lost abouth 13 apisto's in one week to flagellates. I talked to quit some people to find the reason and all came down to flagellates. Symptoms are the next.

-fish looks fine and acts normal
-starts spitting out foods time after time and finaly eats
-stops feeding and only pics food up and spit it out
-becomes in active
-starts to clamp his fins looks ill and start hiding in a corner or near the surface
-dies

This all can happen in 2 to 3 day's or over a time period of a couple of weeks depending on the condition of the fish. At the shops the fish are kept alive with antibiotics but as soon as they move to your tank the troubles start. This is becouse there are no longer meds in the tank but also the stress around the move to your tanks have a negative effect on the fish its health.

Flagellates are related to a poor condition. Poor condition is related to poor water qualety, stress and nutrition. Flagellates only take down weak fish. Flagellates can be cured but only at the first stage. When the fish stop feeding there is only a very small change it will heal! Thats why I recommend to treat with Metro (metronidazole) or dimetro (dimetronidazole) right away. The live foods should bring them in a better condition. Fish love catching live foods and it makes them to exploor the tank faster compared to new fish that don't receive live foods.

Best qualety apisto's are from a hobby breeder. Most offered apisto's from hobby breeders are A cacatuoides.


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## bigcatsrus (Apr 15, 2009)

Dutch Dude said:


> The things you are experiencing right now is unfortunately quit common in Czech bread apisto's and Rams. I'm not a fan of medications but I see no other way around to OR buy from a local breeder OR treat them right away with metro or dimetro and start feeding high qualety live foods such as live artemis. Next goal can be to breed them rather sooner than later and those baby's will be normal healthy apisto's.
> 
> As to your angels,....what is their diet, what is your feeding regime, what are the foods they receive.
> 
> ...


Hi Dutch Dude,

My angels were recieving bloodworms but stopped that as they started to die (2 were due to a heater malfunction). They get King British cichlid flake, Hikari Gold pellets and frozen mysis. Mysis given as a weekly treat. I do a weekly water change about 50%. I have one angelfish left that was from a differnet source to the other angels I had and the only angel left is showing no signs of dieing. The other angels would go and hide in the back of the tank for 2 - 3 days and then be on the sand bed.

If I had a water problem my tetras would surely die as they are not as strong as cichlids, I could be wrong but that's what I would be thinking. I don't have a test kit at the moment but with not working and recovering from a back injury, its hard to get out. I hope to get some this week.

From memory when I last checked my PH was around the 8 mark. Think my GH was 180 but lik eI say I will get some this week.

I'm not buying anymore as I can't cope with spending a fair amount of money and then just have them die is not right. I'm going to stick with what I have.


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

I'm not quite sure why you're not specifically testing your water rather than guessing that your water isn't the reason. Apistos are very sensitive to nitrates, so that would be the first thing I'd test (if it were my tank). Ph would be a close second. They do need soft water. It might be that you don't have the right water for these fish. Perhaps switching to Malawi?? Just a thought . . .

Another thought -- what about a pair of rainbow cichlids? I recently acquired a pair and they are fabulous fish! Very beautiful, full of personality, not hard on the other inhabitants of the tank even when breeding and hardy. Can tolerate high pH.

Good luck and sorry for the losses.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

For now I suggest to increase the water changing to 2 times 50% a week and do a proper substrate cleaning. Hollyfish might be right abouth high nitrates. Imo nitrates should kept below 20mg/liter for any fish. Apisto's will do best on lower nitrate levels. Lots of the plant ferts add nitrates and phosphates to the water so be careful with those.

There is quit a diference between wild and domesticated apisto's. Wilds need soft water preferable around 6 while domesticated handle a PH=7 just fine. I keep mine at PH=8 and GH=9 (hongsloi II).

I suggest to test the water for nitrates, nitrites, PH and GH.


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## bigcatsrus (Apr 15, 2009)

I stir up the sand every time I do a water change. Thought that was what your meant to do.

I don't use any plant ferts or phosphates for my plants. They seem to be doing just fine.

I will definately get test for those and let you guys know.


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## flashbang (Jun 23, 2010)

Hi, I had the same problem with my GBR's. I lost quite a few over a period of 2 months. Just by luck i found the exact symptoms in a fish disease book i was looking in at a freinds house. You need to do a search for HEXAMITA or HEXAMITIASIS (hole in the head disease). It is in fact a parasite.
I have kept cichlids for a number of years and have never come across the disease before, but the discription of the disease was bang on in respect to my rams. The only medication i have found in the U.K is a product called OCTOZIN produced by Waterlife. This has prooved to be sucessful for my fishes and i am dosing the tanks with it every few months as a precaution.

HEXAMITA
a parasitic disease primarily of cichlid fish, some authorities consider that most, if not all aquqrium cichlids are infected. the parasites are readily transmitted from cichlid to cichlid.
SIGNS
White stringy FAECES, sometimes also but not allways,accompanied by enlargement of the sensory pores of the head, which usually also become filled with whitish pus.
Dark colorisation and loss of appetite are common in advanced cases.
Both emanciation and distended body have been reported 
CAUSE
These weakly pathogenic parasites are commonly found in small numbers in the intestines of cichlids, where they do no apparent harm under normal circumstances.
If however the fish is weakened (e.g. disease,stress,environmental problem) the parasitees multiply and migrate through the fishes system.If (and only if)they reach the sensory pores do the charecteristic pus filled holes develop
Death occurs if a vital organ is invaded and fatally damaged.
*Many mystery deaths of cichlids may be due to hexamita infestations where the sensory pores have remained unaffected*.

As i have allready said, i had not come across this disease before but i was amazed to find the exact symptoms that i had with my rams.I am sure the medication has worked for me and i will continue to use it , i also went and bought the book.


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## bigcatsrus (Apr 15, 2009)

Dutch Dude said:


> For now I suggest to increase the water changing to 2 times 50% a week and do a proper substrate cleaning. Hollyfish might be right abouth high nitrates. Imo nitrates should kept below 20mg/liter for any fish. Apisto's will do best on lower nitrate levels. Lots of the plant ferts add nitrates and phosphates to the water so be careful with those.
> 
> There is quit a diference between wild and domesticated apisto's. Wilds need soft water preferable around 6 while domesticated handle a PH=7 just fine. I keep mine at PH=8 and GH=9 (hongsloi II).
> 
> I suggest to test the water for nitrates, nitrites, PH and GH.


Right I've got some test strips as that is all I can afford and I know not as reliable as the liquids.

I used Tetra strips.

Here are the results;
CL2 - 0 mg/L
PH - 7.2
KH - 6 d
GH - 16 d
NO2 - 0 mg/L
NO3 - 50mg/L

My PH is lower than I expected but seems fine. I am going to do another water change tomorrow as the NO3 is a little high but says on the strips it's safe.

Also done a direct test from the tap.

CL2 - 0 mg/L
PH - 7.6
KH - 6 d 
GH - 16 d
NO2 - 0 mg/L
NO3 - 0, close to 10 mg/L


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## bigcatsrus (Apr 15, 2009)

My nitrates have gone down to 25 mg/L.

Guess no one knows.


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## flashbang (Jun 23, 2010)

i would expect to see some nitrite, have you tested for ammonia?- your bio filter might not be working


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## bigcatsrus (Apr 15, 2009)

If I had ammonia surely my nitrites would be showing something.

My filter is working very well. I've come to the conclusion that between not having the right water softness and the nitrates being a little high and then ontop of that they were weak before I got them that this is what caused them to die.

I'm sticking to hard water species.


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## flashbang (Jun 23, 2010)

hi, could still be ammonia-if the bio filtration has been damaged you will have no way of changing ammonia into nitrite.
you could have killed the filter bacteria by using chemicals or not using dechlorinator with the amount of water changes you have done.
just a possibility, i am not trying to critisize


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## bigcatsrus (Apr 15, 2009)

My filteration is working well.

I don't use any chemicals and no critisium taken


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