# Odd Eating Habits?



## jennye0 (May 27, 2008)

** I didn't know whether to post this topic here or in the illness section because I'm not sure if my fish has an illness or not, but if anyone has any opinions I'd be glad to hear them **

I have a 3 inch F1 Copadichromis melas "Midnight Mloto" that I got from an online order a month ago. All the fish arrived in perfect condition and settled in to the 75g tank and its tankmates immediately. About a week after their arrival I noticed that I had never seen the Mloto eat and I assumed the worst, that they had bloat. There is almost no aggression in the tank so I know the others arent intimidating him. I feed them 1-2 times a day with HBH Spirulina and Ocean One Color Pellets that sink so that my shy frontosa can get a chance to munch.

At first the Mloto appeared kind of thin but now he's neither fat nor skinny, his stomach is just flat, which is a little thinner when compared to his tankmates which have slightly rounded stomachs but not fat. I tried to check if I could see any stringy feces on him but instead he always has the normal brown-red feces like the others.

Before coming to a decision of applying meds to the tank I tried to watch him more closely to see any signs of eating. As I began feeding the fish I watched him closely to see if I could spot him sneaking off some food or something but he just stayed away from the food and watched the feeding frenzy go on. Then, after all the food was gobbled up and the fish had their mouths full he came out swimming around opening and closing his mouth rapidly. I thought "what the heck is he doing?" so I got closer to the glass and this is what I saw. As the other fish were still dissolving and swallowing the pellets there were tiny little microscopic food particles coming out of their gills and the Mloto was happily eating all their floating leftovers. It almost looked like he was "filter feeding" :lol: . After everyone has finished eating he stops the rapid opening of his mouth and resumes his daily activities.

He does this everytime he eats and has been going at it for over a month. Up to this point I can still say that I have never seen him eat a pellet. Is this normal behavior or common for this species? I wouldnt know because there is almost no information on this species that I know of. Should I be worried about it? After all he shows no signs of illness and gets along well with his tankmates.


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## Dewdrop (Nov 20, 2007)

I think he needs a dentist if he is letting the others chew the food for him :lol: (kidding)
Really I don't know if it's normal or not but at least he is getting some food.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I'm not too sure that there isn't something wrong with him. This does not sound normal at all, and it doesn't sound like he's getting much, if any, food.

What is the full stock list on this tank?

Does he appear to be stressed? Clamped fins? (It almost sounds like he's being reclusive from what you describe.) Not all fish have white feces with bloat, so don't rule that out.

Do you have a hospital tank?


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## jennye0 (May 27, 2008)

I'm pretty sure it's not normal but right now I do not have a hospital tank to place him in. He does not appear stressed in any way, no clamped fins, no hiding. I think last time I counted there were 24-25 fish. They are supposed to be all males (except the acei), there's just three that i'm not so sure about, still waiting for them to color up. This is the stock list, give or take a fish:

3 - P. acei
10 - Aulonocaras
2 - Otopharynx lithobates, big spot
2 - Protomelas taiwan reef, taeniolatus
1 - Nimbochromis venustus
2 - Copadichromis borleyi, melas
1 - Placidochromis phenochilus
1 - Cyphotilapia gibberosa
1 - Macrognathus siamensis
1 - Synodontis
1 - Plecostomus

If he had bloat wouldnt he be dead by now and wouldnt the others be showing signs of bloat already? About 6 months ago the entire tank had bloat and the fishes' behavior was much different than this guy's. They hid in the corner all day, had clamped fins, showed no interest in food, and had white feces. When this happened the disease progressed very fast and within a week I lost 4 fish. My fish do not show any of these symptoms, it is a very active tank and everybody is doing something: picking algae off the rocks, digging up plants, sifting sand, swimming against the current, etc. I will continue to monitor him to see if I pick up any signs of illness.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I would be suspicious of early bloat. Fish can linger for weeks with it. And, it can spread through a tank so slowly that we often don't relate one loss to another. You've only had this one for a month, and it's not uncommon for it to wait that long to surface with new fish...Stress from transport/shipping, introduction to a tank, new kid on the block syndrome...

Did you QT him before adding him?

Rather than hit the tank with meds (since everyone else seems okay) I would try feeding an antiparasitic medicated food, doing some good sized water changes with substrate vacuuming to remove any potentially infected feces, and add some epsom salt to the tank preventatively at 1 cup per 100G - making sure to dissolve it in tank water first before adding, and only replace the amount of epsom salt applicable to your water change amount!

Those are good preventative measures.

Jungle makes an antiparasitic pellet. Fish don't usually take too well to it, but if you soak it in tank water and mush it a bit with your fingers before feeding and DON'T offer anything else, they will usually eat it.


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## jennye0 (May 27, 2008)

I am ashamed to say that I did not quarantine the new arrivals, which I know I should have. For this reason I always do 50-60% WC and vaccum the sand weekly. I also add epsom salt at the measure you said. I do have the Jungle antiparasitic food (forgot about it) and will try to feed it to them tomorrow, because they already ate and absolutely hate the stuff.

Question about salts. I always add epsom and normal aquarium salt to my aquarium whether I feel they need it for medicinal purposes or not. The only thing is that I add less of the aquarium salt than is recommended. For instance the container says one tablespoon per 5 gallons, I add the amount for 50 gallons instead of 75. I do this because I had a columnaris outbreak ealrier in the year and was devastating for my fish. The water parameters are always good but I like to take the extra preventative measures incase a scratch gets infected. Am I right in doing this or is it unecessary?


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## corrie22 (Oct 11, 2008)

jennye0 said:


> I have a 3 inch F1 Copadichromis melas "Midnight Mloto" .


Jenny, do a quick search on the feeding habits of this fish.
They feed on zooplankton, so he might not know what pellets are, but might recognize the small floating particles as plankton.

I keep my peacocks and haps on one tbs per five gals all the time


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## jennye0 (May 27, 2008)

You know that is exactly what I thought, that maybe the small food particles seemed more natural so he prefered that over pellets. Would this have anything to do with him being an F1?

I had read somewhere that having salt in the water all the time was bad for their health. I dont know if this is entirely true but I think it's better than not having any. Sould I just add the normal amount instead of less?


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## corrie22 (Oct 11, 2008)

It depends on your water.
Our water is not very soft, I'd call it med hard, and settles into a rock solid 8.2 pH after a few days of aeration.
If your water is not very soft, I don't see how one tbs of salt per 5 gals would even be noticed.

I'm sorta like you, I feel like it might help some. I know since I started doing it my fish stopped getting those funky undescribed "things" going on.

I also keep a big group of white seam plecos in the tank too. Salt has never bothered them even at over 1 tbs per gal.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

I think you're wise to treat the tank as Kim suggested but it may also be that this fish is being harrassed and that is why he's not eating with the rest of them. When a fish is being harrassed it doesn't always show as injuries and such, often the harrassed fish will just not feel comfortable eating and swimming normally.

On the amount of aquarium salt, (sodium chloride) you're adding: at those levels it won't do much other than help to detoxify any nitrite in the water--which is a good thing but hopefully you don't have any nitrite to detoxify. Sodium chloride dosed at higher levels may help prevent the spread of some bacterial infections by not allowing them to attach to the fish's skin, (not a cure on its own and I would NOT rely on it as a preventative measure against getting bacterial infections in the first place), and at still higher doses sodium chloride can be used to kill ick and other parasites. Salt baths--where you use extremely large amounts of sodium chloride and only keep the fish in the bath for short dunks is used for a variety of ailments..

Epsom salt will raise the GH in your tank and used as Kim has recommended will work as a mild analgesic and laxative and may help to prevent bloat.

As far as routinely adding sodium chloride to your water and whether it helps keep them healthy, I don't know. There's debate by knowledgeable people on both sides of that question. I don't think you will do your fish any harm by keeping 1 Tablespoon per five gallons.

Robin


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I agree with Robin 100%.

I don't think I would maintain epsom salt in the tank constantly, though. For medicinal purposes (and you said you were using it at the strength I recommended) maintaining it at all times may mean it won't help you when you really need it. You don't want the fish's immune system to build up a barrier against something that you might need to really reap benefits from now and then.

As far as the aquarium salt, I don't see the need for it, unless you're having problems and feel it's indicated.


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## jennye0 (May 27, 2008)

Good news guys, I actually saw the C. melas eat pellets! He stuffed about 5 in his mouth (which is a lot for his size) and then resumed feeding on the leftovers from the other fish. Such an odd little guy.

I did a water change 3 days ago and added aquarium salt and epsom salt (at the strength cichlidaholic recommended) as I usually do. Since he is apparently eating now I guess I will not continue to add epsom salt on the next water change so they dont become immune to it.

I'm still deciding whether to continue with aquarium salt or not because the fish that are starting to mature and color up have been displaying dominance behaviors to see whos king of the tank and every now and then they get a scratch or two that usually goes away by the next day, but nothing serious. I believe the salt is helping them heal faster and prevents them from getting infected. Do you guys think that their immune systems could form barriers from aquarium salt also?


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Really the best preventative for injury and infection is a well maintained tank. IMO that includes: 
>perfect water parameters, (0-ammonia, 0-nitrite and less than 20ppm nitrate), 
>weekly partial water changes and gravel siphonings, 
>plenty of water movement, 
>feeding the fish food that meets their dietary needs and above all NOT overfeeding, 
>choosing tankmates that have the best chance of living peacefully, (do your research before you buy),
>taking action at the first sign of illness

Some will say that keeping X-amount of salt, (sodium chloride) in the tank helps their fish in one way or another and I'm not going to argue with their conclusions. Since salt doesn't evaporate when water evaporates you do have to be careful that you don't re-add salt for water that is being replaced from evaporation otherwise you may eventually have too much salt in your tank. 
As to whether the salt's effectiveness will be diminished when it comes time to _really_ use it, say to kill ick--probably not. The amount you use to treat ick and the amount you might routinely add to your tank is so different, (3-5 Tablespoons per five gallons for ick as opposed to 1 Tablespoon per five gallons for routine use).
I have read that salt will help prevent bacteria from adhering to a fish's skin. I don't think that ability will be diminished by maintaining 1 tablespoon per five gallons since the salt isn't killing the bacteria but rather forming a barrier. But having said that I still feel it's better to keep up with proper tank care to prevent infection and disease. 
Epsom salt: again many routinely add it. In addition to being a mild analgesic and laxative it will raise the GH. Some feel it's important to maintain a specific GH level. I haven't seen any research that shows fish care one way or another but it is important to keep the GH level consistant. If you decide to stop adding it then do so gradually over several water changes.

The only things I add to my water when doing partial water changes is declorinator and baking soda to raise the KH. My tap water has a very low KH. Not a huge problem if I keep up with weekly partial water changes but I'll admit to occasionally letting them go for longer and with a low KH my PH is more likely to drop between water changes. The higher KH buffers the PH, (holds it at a specific level for a longer period of time).

Robin


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## jennye0 (May 27, 2008)

Robin, thanks for the salt info.

I have been doing larger water changes than before and more often. This past month I've been doing 60% water changes every 5-6 days. I decide to do a wc whenever I see the nitrates near 40ppm. After the wc, nitrates never seem to go lower than 20ppm. I know it is because of the amount of fish in the tank and not because of overfeeding because they usually eat once a day and I skip feedings on wc days, but they will only stay in here for a couple more months until I can finish remodeling another bigger tank I have for them. I just dont know if I am doing good with the water changes. Is it too much, good, or need larger wc?

Going back to the C. melas, I still dont know what is wrong with him (if there _is _anything wrong with him). He seldomly eats pellets and spends most of his feeding time eating the others leftovers. Cichlidaholic mentioned it could be indications of early bloat, but on the bloat article on this website it says the first sign is loss of appetite followed by white streaky feces, swollen abdomen, reclusiveness, etc. I watched my fish for a while today during and after feedings and I did not see any of these signs. Since I didnt quarantine them I am still going to take some preventative measures just in case. The Jungle Antiparisitic food is not working very well so I am going to soak their Omega One pellets in metronidazole. I have the ones that come in tabs (1 tab = 10g). Should I dissolve one tab in a small cup with water per feeding or more?


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Well anytime a fish isn't eating normally its wise to be on high alert for additional symptoms of bloat, which you are doing. Usually with bloat you'll see the symptoms progress, (from spitting out food to not eating, then lethargic behavior, etc). So far this hasn't happened but cichlidaholic is correct in pointing out the possibility of bloat.

Since the symptoms have not changed or progressed I do wonder if your fish is eating so timidly because of aggression from another fish?

On the anti-parasite food: not sure an antiparasite med is called for here but since this fish is not eating normally I'd go with a med you put directly in the water. That way you'll know he's getting enough of the med. Jungle Parasite Clear would be a good choice. It won't hurt the rest of your fish to treat them all this one time.

On the nitrates and large water changes. There's nothing wrong with doing large water changes as long as you're using a *good quality declorinator.* (See declorinator article, linked below). Just make sure that if your tank goes longer than a week without a water change that you do two smaller water changes separated by several hours rather than one large one. The reason for this is that over time the parameters in your tank will change. The fish adjust to this change without much problem because it is a gradual but then if you do a large water change the parameters change too abruptly and this can cause problems for your fish.

Once nitrate levels get high it can take several weeks of more frequent partial water changes to get them to stay down. Make sure you're siphoning the gravel at least once a week and that the gravel isn't too deep.

Robin


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## jennye0 (May 27, 2008)

I really cannot see any aggression from the other fish towards him. The only aggressors in the tank are the OB peacock, eureka, lwanda, and P. steveni taiwan, which usually chase each other. Since I dont see much aggression it makes me think that it may really be bloat. I just thought that bloat was fast, not that it took a month to show.

The med I have is Jungle Parasite Clear tabs. I hadnt thought about him not eating the met soaked food :lol: , might not be of very much use so i'll go ahead and treat the whole tank.

Should I go with the instructions on the box: treat 2 times with 48 hours between treatments and a 25% wc?

I know some meds can be harsh on scaleless fish. On the box it says that it is safe for all fish and plants. Does this include my synodontis and peacock eel? Should I take them out?


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## jennye0 (May 27, 2008)

I looked at the declorinator site and I think I may be using one that may not be doing the job. I use Top Fin Tap Water Dechlorinator and all it says on the label is "removes chlorine, chloramine, heavy metal, and is highly concentrated" and there are no ingredients stated. So I'm assuming it's not removing the chloramines. Wouldnt it show up whenever I test for ammonia or does it affect the nitrates? I guess it would be better if I started using Seachem Prime to remove everything.

On the Jungle Parasite Clear box it says to remove carbon from the filters. Since carbon doesnt last more than a few days in water will it be safe to add the meds without fear of them being removed by the carbon? I havent changed the carbon from my HOB filter in about a month, my canister doesn't contain any carbon though.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

If the carbon has been in the filter for over a month it's probably not going to absorb the meds BUT, to be on the safe side I'd still remove it. You can take a razor blade, slit the side of the filter cartridge and shake the carbon out. Then you won't be losing all of the beneficial bacteria by chucking the entire cartridge.

I would go with the instructions on the JPC box. Some also feel it's wise to fast the fish during the treatment.

Not to push the aggression possibility here but aggression takes many forms. Often what will happen is that a dominant fish will vibe-out a less dominant fish by preventing the other fish from swimming freely around the tank or from feeding. This vibe-out, (not a technical term!), takes place with little or no physical contact but if you sit quietly and watch the tank for some time you'll see how the dominant fish will merely turn his or her head in the direction of the less dominant fish--often from the other side of the tank--to keep that fish from swimming or eating.

Robin


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## jennye0 (May 27, 2008)

That's a good idea, i'll just take out the carbon from the cartridge. Did you think it was ok if I left the scaleless fish in the tank while I treat them with Jungle Prasaite Clear?

I forgot to mention this in the other post, but the dominant fish is the 6" male acei (who is the biggest in the tank). I didnt classify him as an aggressor because he doesnt bother a soul, he's more of a referee and breaks up fights, yet no one dares mess with him. But I know what you mean about the "vibe-out" thing and I know for sure that the eureka and lwanda are the outcasts of the group, they only come out to eat then go back to the spot in the tank where they are allowed to be. As soon as any of the other maturing aulonocaras look at them, they jet. Like you said, the lwanda shows no signs of injury, in fact he's one of the best looking in the tank but he's still greatly dominated by the other aulonocaras. The eureka is absoloutely hated by my baenschi so he bares a few scratches, which is why I use salt. In my opinion aulonocaras are the more feisty ones, but the rest of the haps are very peaceful.


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