# Strange behavior after move to new tank



## Burns (Nov 14, 2015)

Hello,

I'm new here so I hope I'm doing this right.

Back Story:
I have 1 Electric Yellow African Cichlid, and I have had him for a little over one month. He is approximately 2 inches in length, and I'm boldly assuming it's a male due to the black stripes on the dorsal, pelvic, and anal fins. For the first three weeks (not knowing any better because the chain store I bought him from lied to me), I kept him in a small tank. He was not physically too large for the tank, but I learned that he was biologically too large for the tank. I immediately bought a larger tank and began cycling and researching everything I could. In the mean time I did partial water changes in the small tank to manage the ammonia and nitrite levels. He still managed to be very active, and would always come to the front to say hi when I sat down at my desk. He was also a voracious eater. As of last night, I moved him to his new tank. This morning I noticed he is not at all himself.

Symtoms
-Loss of appetite
-Inactive
-Loss of balance
-Sitting at bottom of tank

He always used to swim to the top when it was feeding time. I would shake the bag of food in front of the tank and somehow he'd recognize it. Now he does not respond to any visual stimulation. Waving the bag of food does nothing for him, and he does not eat it anyways. Waving my hand in front of the tank gets no response. He barely moves at all, sitting at the bottom of the tank. Rarely (and I mean RARELY) he will get up and move to a new spot. When he does, he appears to swim normally. However, when resting at the bottom of the tank he will often "fall over". Most times he rights himself, but sometimes he takes a little while to do so. He also seems to shy away from the current created by the HOB filter, hiding in corners to avoid having to swim in the current.

Tank conditions:
-10 gallon tank
-Cycled
-Dechlorinated using Aqueon dechlorinator (came with tank)
-Sand bed
-Rocks for hiding (new)
-Food: "Tetra Pro Cichlid Color Pellets" and rarely a little cucumber as a treat

-Temp: 78 with no noticed fluctuation
-pH: 8 (buffered as well using SeaChem Lake Malawi Buffer)
-Ammonia: 0
-Nitrite: 0
-Nitrate: <10

After seeing this in the morning, I went to the chain for help. They suggested the fish was simply stressed and to watch it. I also went to a local fish store (they were very helpful ~3 weeks back), and they suggested more hiding places from the current. I added some rocks to the aquarium as well as the proper dosage of SeaChem Cichlid salt. I've tested the water 3 times today to see if something weird is going on, and each test gave me identical results.

Please, if you have a question, ask it. I want to give as much accurate information as possible. Thank in advance for your help, this little fish really means the world to me.


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## Burns (Nov 14, 2015)

I'd also like to say I've looked to see what it might be. I've read about Malawi Bloat, but I do not _think_ that is the case. He does not appear to be bloated in any way, and I've not seen any white stringy feces.

And uh... my bad for spelling Symptoms wrong, won't let me edit that post anymore.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

Did you cycle the tank with the fish in it?


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## Burns (Nov 14, 2015)

No, the tank was cycled without fish. I checked the water in it frequently and watched the ammonia and nitrite and finally nitrate spikes.

It sounds like you have something in mind though?


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

The symptoms you're describing can be caused by ammonia poisoning.


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## Burns (Nov 14, 2015)

Ok, supposing that is the case, would I do a partial water change and consider getting something like ammonia lock?


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

Most fish don't recover from ammonia poisoning but water changes and Seachem Prime or API Ammo Lock wouldn't hurt.

Is it possible you did a recent water change and forgot to add dechlorinator?


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## Burns (Nov 14, 2015)

Unlikely, I always add dechlorinator and buffer to each change. I'm doing a new water change right now, and I'll get ammo lock as soon as I the store opens. Any other suggestions?


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## Burns (Nov 14, 2015)

As I started the water change, he started swimming around very erratically and all his fins are stuck open.

He landed upside down, when I righted him he did not respond whatsoever. He's laying sideways on the bottom and only breathing now.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

Sorry to hear that. It sounds like there could be something toxic in the water going into the tank.


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## Burns (Nov 14, 2015)

There must be, but all my tests show practically ideal water conditions, not to mention it's the same water I've used for the previous tank over the past month (with dechlor and buffer of course). I've set up his smaller tank again to use as a hospital tank and moved him. At least I know he was always safe in there.

Does anyone know what I might look for in the new tank water?


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## Burns (Nov 14, 2015)

I'd really like to hear some more thoughts if possible...

He's in the hospital tank, and for a little bit he seemed to be swimming more, at least circling around the bottom of the tank. He's back to laying on his side and doing nothing. I really appreciate zimmy's help, but more perspectives could really help here, and I'm desperate.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

First off...under your tank conditions list you have new rocks. Did you thoroughly clean the rocks and sand before putting it in the tank? Could any of the rocks be leaching anything?

Also, you had an immediate negative reaction when adding new water. That's a definite red flag! Are you adding the new water straight from your tap? Or are you premixing your water with dechlorinator and buffers prior to adding it in the tank?

1. If you are adding straight from the tap are you adding the dechlorinator to the tank before adding the new water and allow it to mix in? Then adding buffers after?

2. Why the need for all the buffers? How low is your PH and KH levels directly from the tap? Avoid using buffers at all unless the PH is below 7.6. It would be very difficult to properly dose a 10 gallon tank and keep it consistent. Big changes to the PH level could damage the fish.

3. If you premixed the water prior to adding it to the tank....did you premix with the buffers the night prior to adding it to the tank? Buffers should be allowed to dissolve in the water for at least a few hours before adding it to the tank. Again...avoid buffers unless absolutely necessary.

But honestly, my first thought was the same as Zimmy's....sounds like chlorine.


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## Burns (Nov 14, 2015)

Thank you for the reply!

The sand is aquarium sand, and I _think_ I washed it thoroughly enough. Most of the negative reactions occurred before introducing the new rocks. The store I bought them from explained that these are inert rocks, and should not leach any chemicals into the water. Regardless, I washed them very well before placing them in the tank using some brushes.

I'm sorry that I was not clear about the water change portion. He reacted as I was getting ready to remove the water, like he was spooked or woken up. I had not added any new water when he did that. When I do water changes, I always pre mix the dechlorinator and pH buffer. I've read that the buffer dissolves best when mixed before being put into the tank. The pH from the tap is actually below 7 last I checked. We really have pretty nasty water.

I generally mix the buffer into the water to be changed, wait for it to fully dissolve, then add it. I was not aware nor have I found anywhere that it should rest before being added. That is very good information to have, and I will remember it. I only use the one buffer for pH, the Seachem Malawi Victoria buffer. I typically do not use much, and I only add it for water changes. The pH has not dropped on its own from what I've seen.

At what point does too much dechlorinator become harmful? I've been diligent to use it for every water change and when filling the tank. If chlorine is a concern, should I add a little extra dechlor for good measure? I also now have API Ammo Lock, which claims to neutralize ammonia, chlorine and chloramine. How would you recommend using it, if at all?


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

I'm not familiar with Ammo lock but sounds like the same as Prime which is a must with water changes just about everywhere. When doing water changes, I dose based on the total water volume of the tank. I've usually added just a slight amount more for good measure also. But the buffers are dosed based on the amount of water being added to the tank.

But has anybody told you that even with one Cichlid a 10 gallon tank is bit too small? Mbuna need companions. Trying to keep a consistent PH level with less than 10 gallons to work with is very difficult for even well experienced aquarists. You have no room for error. Mbuna don't do well with any sudden big changes to the PH level but can adjust fine to a lower than nominal level.


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## Burns (Nov 14, 2015)

Thank you for the advice, I didn't mean to post it in the wrong section.

Yes, I've heard that cichlids do better in larger tanks. Unfortunately the pet store did not make that clear. I moved to the 10 gallon out of sheer necessity. I plan to move to a 55 gallon when I get the opportunity, but only if I can keep this little guy alive. He was very active and happy in the smaller tank, but I was learning that it could not last for very long.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

The bigger footprint the better with Mbuna as in length and depth. Not so much in height. The larger water volume is much, much more forgiving to keeping your water levels consistent. Especially when using buffers are necessary. I have the same buffers but my PH level from the tap is much closer to optimal than yours so I was talked out of using them. My PH gets as low as 7.8 without any problems.


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## Burns (Nov 14, 2015)

I will certainly keep that in mind, but for now he is the only fish (not currently) in the ten gallon tank, so the bio load should be manageable from what I understand. I have not had any real difficulty maintaining a steady pH using the buffer, and I do check it frequently.

I'm considering getting some water ready for a water change for the hospital tank tomorrow if necessary. As I understand it so far, I should fill the bucket, add dechlorinator, add pH buffer, and let it sit over night. Is this correct? Also, I have my old bottle of dechlorinator, as well as Ammo Lock. The old dechlorinator claims to work on chlorine, chloramine, and heavy metals. It is "AquaSafe" by Tetra for reference. The Ammo Lock claims to work on ammonia, chlorine, and chloramine. Which one should I use, or some combination of both? Obviously I will ensure the temperature of the water to be used matches that of the tank. I am not set on doing a water change tomorrow, but it would be better to have the water ready if it is necessary.


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## Burns (Nov 14, 2015)

I'd also like to point out that the only difference between what I said above and what I have been doing is I've always used the Tetra dechlorinator and buffer, but have not let it sit overnight.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Yes, since you are adding a small enough amount of water to the tank that you can do it in a 5 gallon bucket. Mix it up and let it sit overnight. The Aquasafe and Ammo lock should be basically the same thing just different manufacturer. A dechlorinator is what you want, I started my first tank using Aquasafe then switched to Prime.

But certainly it seems something is off with your water in the new tank for your Lab to react that way when you transferred him.


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## Burns (Nov 14, 2015)

He's dead. He died overnight in the hospital tank. I'll do some tests on the water so that you guys can see what the final conditions were. Is there any other info I should collect before cleaning all the up?


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

Sorry to hear that. It sounded like that's where things were headed. Happens to the best of us.

It's really hard to know what might have caused the problem so I'm not sure what tests to recommend.

Roger That has given very good advice about how to stock mbuna appropriately and using buffers. I wouldn't put either in the 10G if you decide you want to use that tank again.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Sorry for your loss. Yeah...test all of your parameters and document it for reference. It is possible that the fish had something prior but it just sounds like something with the new tank. Hope you don't give up...these Mbuna are awesome fish and not that difficult once everything is set up.

Before using that tank again, I would redo everything. Rewash the sand, rocks and ornaments and cycle the tank again.


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## Burns (Nov 14, 2015)

I'm not testing for anything new, just checking to see if any fluctuation occurred.

Temp: 78
pH: 8
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0

The hospital tank had a bubble stone for oxygenation. I appreciate everyone's help with this. I understand that mbuna prefer larger tanks, but I think an argument can also be made that most fish prefer bigger tanks, because none of them naturally exist in tanks. That being said, what I am most concerned about is what caused this death. Nobody has indicated that 1 young cichlid in a 10 gallon tank is overstocking, and I wouldn't think that to be the case either. I've heard that if you have multiple mbuna, you need to find ways to counteract aggression. Most solutions I've seen involve "overstocking" a tank, but I've also seen that this can only be applied to large tanks. For obvious reasons I would not consider putting 3 cichlids in my 10 gallon, because there is not enough space and the bioload would be more than tricky to handle.

All things considered, I would like to rule out the size of the tank as the cause or as a contributing factor of the death. After all, I moved him from a very small tank (where he was very active and seemed happy) to a much larger (relatively speaking) tank. Of course looking forward I will be more cautious about tank size, but I cannot understand how that hurt the fish in this case.

Can I get some more information on buffers? If there is some reading somewhere that you can link me to, I would appreciate it. I do not understand the need for caution with buffers. I have only used the amount recommended on the bottle, and I've only added it to new water for water changes. I do not recall ever adding it directly to the tank or adding significantly larger quantities than recommended. Once the pH reached 8, I never saw any fluctuation, so maintaining the pH in the very small tank was actually very easy for me.

Also, I am curious to know how quickly cichlids grow. I have read that the male electric yellows may grow to approx 5 inches long. When I bought mine, he was about 2 inches long and remained that way.

Finally, if I were to start absolutely from scratch here, how would YOU set up an mbuna tank? I seriously think I met most of the requirements, but all I have is knowledge from reading, no experience.

I want to thank you guys again for all your help. After yesterday I sort of realized there wasn't much I could do anyways.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

If you want to give the Mbuna another try, save up for at least a 55 gallon 4' long tank. Preferably a 75 gallon. I was in Petsmart yesterday and they had a Marineland 75 gallon tank, stand, glass tops and LED lighting for 299. That's a good deal for a new tank.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

It is not likely that the size of the tank caused his death, just not optimal for the long term health and environment for Mbuna to thrive. It is almost certainly from something amiss in the new tank. Obviously something toxic to the little guy, and your water testing parameters most likely won't recognize what it may have been.

But one thing about your test parameters that are a red flag.....
Nitrate should not have a zero reading in a cycled tank. This indicates that the tank is not cycled....might be the issue right there.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

Burns said:


> I'm not testing for anything new, just checking to see if any fluctuation occurred.
> 
> Temp: 78
> pH: 8
> ...


The 0 nitrates is odd. Makes me think the tank was not actually cycled. What kind of test kit are you using?


Burns said:


> I understand that mbuna prefer larger tanks, but I think an argument can also be made that most fish prefer bigger tanks, because none of them naturally exist in tanks. That being said, what I am most concerned about is what caused this death. Nobody has indicated that 1 young cichlid in a 10 gallon tank is overstocking, and I wouldn't think that to be the case either. I've heard that if you have multiple mbuna, you need to find ways to counteract aggression. Most solutions I've seen involve "overstocking" a tank, but I've also seen that this can only be applied to large tanks. For obvious reasons I would not consider putting 3 cichlids in my 10 gallon, because there is not enough space and the bioload would be more than tricky to handle.
> 
> All things considered, I would like to rule out the size of the tank as the cause or as a contributing factor of the death. After all, I moved him from a very small tank (where he was very active and seemed happy) to a much larger (relatively speaking) tank. Of course looking forward I will be more cautious about tank size, but I cannot understand how that hurt the fish in this case.





> Also, I am curious to know how quickly cichlids grow. I have read that the male electric yellows may grow to approx 5 inches long. When I bought mine, he was about 2 inches long and remained that way.


You're right that most fish prefer larger tanks but there is a minimum tank size that's generally considered acceptable for each species. I don't think the small tank was the cause of death either but I doubt it helped. There's lots of evidence to suggest that keeping fish in tanks that are too small will stunt their growth. If you want to see some semblance of mbuna's natural behaviour and want them to reach their full potential it usually means having a group of 5 or more and keeping them in a tank that's at least 4 feet in length (unless you're keeping one of the dwarf varieties).

I was reading an old thread on this forum the other day where a guy split a batch of fry. He kept one group in an appropriate sized tank and the other in a very large tank. Same water change routine, feeding schedule and everything else but the tank size and the second group was bigger a few months later.

It sounds like you did a good job managing the buffers but, as Roger That pointed out in his earlier post, there's an increased risk of screwing up when playing chemist with a small tank. A larger body of water will help compensate for small fluctuations much more easily. This is why you'll see a lot of people on this forum saying it's best to not mess with any additives if you don't have to. Unless you plan on breeding wild caught fish and your water parameters are very different than their natural habitat, adding buffers is an unnecessary risk and a waste of money.


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## Burns (Nov 14, 2015)

Those test results are from the hospital tank where he was for the last two days, hence the zero nitrate. If I were to test the 10 gallon, there would almost definitely be nitrate, as there was in previous tests.

I have carefully read and considered everything you guys have said, but I will ask this anyways. I plan to entirely clean and restart the 10 gallon tank. If I were to get 1 and only 1 mbuna, likely another electric yellow, could I keep him in there for a few months, and later move him to a 55 with the possible addition of other fish? I have never had any issues with water chemistry, and have only used recommended amounts of chemicals. I've not seen any fluctuations in temp or water parameters that cause me concern, and I am in the habit of doing weekly water changes. I understand that a 10 gallon environment is not optimal for an mbuna, but I would like to start one there.

I ask this because my college campus does not allow any pets that do not live in a 10 gallon or smaller tank. I am a senior and will graduate this spring. As soon as I find a new place I would look for a 55 as soon as I could. I know most of you do this as a hobby, and you're really exceptional at it. I looked at the tanks on your profiles and they're absolutely beautiful. I hope I can have a tank that nice some day. However, I don't do this as a hobbyist. I need this for the companionship, and I really don't think I should go into detail about that.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Was the 10G tank you purchased brand new or used?

I understand your desire for a wet pet based on your circumstances and appreciate the bit of back story you provided. If you plan on setting up a larger tank when you are ready AND the plan is for a 55G Mbuna tank, I see no reason why a single yellow Lab won't work in the 10G now. The only potential problem for the future may be the size disparity when you buy new fish.

Are you open to the idea of getting non-Mbuna cichlids that would do well in a 10G tank? Just asking.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Ok....then nitrates were not the issue with the 10 gallon.

Well you received some education on Mbuna in the process so that's a good thing. I too am always learning as I've only had my tank going for three months now. This forum is a fantastic resource and you probably now know more about Mbuna than many LFS jockeys that I've run across. Some of them know what they're doing but sadly there are way too many that are clueless.

As far as your question about attempting another go at it.....you already know it's not recommended but yeah you could. The tank size is not what killed him, but I would scrub that thing thoroughly including rinsing the sand and rocks, soaking overnight, rinsing again. Then I would highly recommend fishless cycling the tank before going and getting any more fish if you haven't done it previously.

You can find the article on fishless cycling in the library of this forum, as a sticky at the top of each forum section or many posts about it in the Aquarium Setup forum section. If you're not familiar with the process, it's a method of creating an adequate amount of biological beneficial bacteria using ammonia as a food source instead of exposing fish to the harmful ammonia and nitrite spikes.

But until you graduate, congratulations by the way, have you considered maybe a dwarf species of Cichlid instead? A yellow lab can get pretty big in six months or so? I also have a 29 gallon community tank with some neon Tetras, a couple of Columbian Sharks and a German Blue Ram dwarf Cichlid. The German Blue Ram is a New World Cichlid, only gets to a couple of inches in size and is the little guy that got me interested in African Cichlids to begin with. In his little world he dominates and is the tank boss without question. Cool little guy. In a ten gallon community setup....you could have three or four German Rams once you have the tank cycled properly. Then when you graduate and get settled somewhere, get yourself a bigger tank and you will be ready for a whole colony of African Mbuna.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Also just wanted to add, when I first set up the community tank six months ago (my very first aquarium attempt) I didn't know anything about a fishless cycle. I did the LFS method of setting it up and adding dechlorinator and adding bacteria in a bottle as recommended on the bottle instructions, then added community fish 48 hours later without too much problem. I did however have three or four deaths out of 20 fish over the span of a couple of months. I also have some plants and driftwood in the tank. The PH level requirement is much lower in this tank and more suitable to your water conditions straight out of the tap.


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## Burns (Nov 14, 2015)

Thank you for your replies. I certainly have learned a lot about cichlids over the past month, more so over the past few days.

The tank I purchased was new. I was very lucky and caught an outstanding sale on it. I have spent most of the morning cleaning both the 10 gallon and the smaller tank. When everything is clean I plan to fill them up with simply dechlorinated water. I also have the bottle of instant bacteria, so I will add the recommended amounts to each tank and allow them to start cycling. I will also research the fishless cycling method some more.

I could possibly pick a different type of cichlid, but to be totally honest I absolutely loved the electric yellow that I had. He was very active and quite a character. I suppose it was the luck of the draw that I left the fish store with such a great fish. At this point, I have amassed a small collection of chemicals specifically for cichlids, some of which are for lake malawi as well. I'll have to look into my other options some more, but I think I will have some time over the next days/weeks while the tanks cycle.

Oh and I forgot to mention that my test kit is the API Freshwater Master test kit. I tried the 5 in 1 test strips, and it was my opinion that they absolutely sucked. My kit allows testing for pH, high range pH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. I think those are the essential tests, but I know I have seen many other tests for sale. GH and KH seem to be a very common test to have as well.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

That's a very good test kit. And yeah...I have six yellow labs in my tank. Beautiful fish, but I'm fascinated with all of them actually. Good luck.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

You can always check the store where you are planning to buy your fish (when ready) and see what the pH of their tanks is. If it is the same as your tap water, no buffers should be needed.

I do recommend the GH and KH test kits as they help understand the hardness and alkalinity of your tap water.


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