# New to plants



## BurgerKing (Jul 1, 2008)

I have a 28 gallon bowfront and am looking to do a planted SA tank. The tank is fully cycled and has been up and running for a few months. I tried to keep plants before thinking there is nothing to it... they died.

What are some good noob plants?

do i need a carbon injector for a 28 gallon, and do i keep the carbon in my filter?

I bought a new Power-Glo 15w 18" light bulb today because my old one crapped out on me. It says its ideal for planted aquariums but just wanted to know if this would work.

I know this is alot of questions and i appreciate any help on any question in advance.

Thanks, Josh


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

15w worth of light won't grow much at all, which is likely why the first batch died. Plants that can grow in just 15w of light would be java fern, java moss and not much more than those...

if you want a planted tank, my advice is to think about ordering a 36W kit from ahsupply.com
That amount of light with a great reflector could grow many a water weed. CO2 is often very beneficial and can be a must. It's hard to know until you decide on a light though.

The carbon in the filter will be useless in a planted tank... yank it out.

Once you've decide on the light you can buy, let us know what you're adding and then we can guide you on more plant choices.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

It is possible to grow plants on 0.6 Watt a gallon and my Bolivian tank is a nice example for it. I did used a high qualety clay based plant substrate (mix of clay, sand and minerals of the brand Dennerle) and put 1 1/2 to 2 inch sand on top. I use one tubelight of the common office lights "cool white". This color looks nice, contains low UV and blue levels and higher orange level. This increases plant growth and decreases algea growth. The small spike at green compensates the lack of blue so blue colors will look normal to strong. I did added a mirror on the tubelight what significantly increases the light strength in the tank. I did used CO2 in this tank but stopped it 4 weeks ago. So far I don't see differences in plant growth. I grow Echinodorus and some floating plants. I will add a pic later on.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Dutch Dude said:


> It is possible to grow plants on 0.6 Watt a gallon and my Bolivian tank is a nice example for it.


 I personally hate the W/G "rule" for exactly this reason...

If you mean your 90g tank, the amount of light over the tank does not downsize and still apply to a 15W light. 15W of light is below the minimum light threshold for a very large number of aquatic plants end of story.

There is a way to setup a low tech low light tank on only 15W of light (I've done it) but not on a 28g bowfront... unless your wattage is powering LED lights... then I could grow tons on a 28g with 15W of LEDs! 

I'm strongly re-emphasizing my reply... 15W just isn't enough. Please consider upgrading the lighting.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Number6,.....I was talking abouth my Bolivian tank with the dimensions of 20 high, 16 wide and 40 long. The tank has only a single tubelight of 30Watt with a mirror detached to it. I shut down the CO2 for over 4 weeks and the tank is still doing great and I didn't detected any slow down on plant growth either. So it is possible as long as you find a good balance between light strength (and spectrum) nutrition, (natural) CO2 level. Not all plants will do great only the once who can handle shaded aria's like most of the Echinodorus, Anubia and Java vern.



> 15W of light is below the minimum light threshold for a very large number of aquatic plants end of story.


I don't agrea and below the prove such a thing is possible! Your stubborn number 6!


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## BurgerKing (Jul 1, 2008)

well thanks for the help. My light does have the mirror on it so i guess that will help, but i probably will upgrade the light

thanks


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

OK Burger King. High light levels bring along that you need to add more fertilizers and a CO2 system might be a wise thing to do as well. More light is faster growing is need for more nutrition and a higher CO2 level.

Good luck and it would be nice to see some pics on the board if the tank is planted and the plants have nicely grown. :thumb:


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

30W of light is enough to grow Swords. Properly reflected, it's plenty. I've eeked growth out under 20W as I mentioned.

The poster has 15W.

The W/G rule may make one think that everything can be divided by two and still work as planned but then practice tells one otherwise.

As I have mentioned, I have even setup a great little 15W low light setup and even added a small sword BUT it was directly under the lamp and much closer to the leaves than it would be in a 28g bowfront. It didn't thrive... barely grew and algae started to affect the leaves.

So you betcha I'm stubborn... if I cannot grow plants on a 28g bowfront with a puny 15W normal output fluorescent light plus his first experience proved a dead end, I don't see how a second attempt at something that I believe to be nigh impossible is sound advice.

What is there not to be stubborn over?

But hey... if the OP wants to head to the experts and re-check if a 15W light over a 28g can grow swords or other plants then I suggest heading to Tom Barr's site rather than waste more time here. 
Suggest you start here:
http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-in ... thods.html

and then repost your question on the forum there for advice that will not steer you wrong.

:thumb:


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

> and then repost your question on the forum there for advice that will not steer you wrong.


I hope you feel good abouth this number6.


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## BurgerKing (Jul 1, 2008)

i looked at the site, and it helped. I dont want a tank as heavily planted as most of the tanks on that site right now. I just want a few plants to make my bolivians feel more at home. Plus they look better than cheesy plastic plants.

Once again thanks for the help. When i go to my LFS to get a pair of germans i'll buy a better bulb and a CO2 thing.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

BurgerKing said:


> I dont want a tank as heavily planted as most of the tanks on that site right now.


 If you would like just a couple of plants, consider building a hood and adding a compact fluorescent spiral light directly over where you want to add a couple of plants. A properly reflected spiral bulb (reflector should be almost as wide as the tank! or as wide as you can fit) will allow you to grow plants below it, and the rest of the tank will be able to stay more algae free.

I say build a hood as you tend to need to hide the mess of mixed lighting from line of sight.

Worth considering! 

oh and Dutch Dude... let's not take this so seriously... I think you were giving bad advice to suggest a 15W cool white bulb over a 28g bowfront... so yes, I said so. You're free to suggest I'm giving bad advice, which I'm pretty sure you already did. It's called a discussion... not a pat each other's back session. 
Cheers. :thumb:


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Whatever Number6 wrote I stick to it and growing plants on 15 Watt over a 28 gallon bowfront is possible (dough a higher light level makes it more easy). Not all plants will do and only plants that do well on shaded aria's like most of the Echinodorus species, Java fern and Anubia. Because you have a low light level you need to adjust some things compared to a normal level lighting. I suggest to get a very nutrition rich plant substrate for Echinodorus (they consume most of the nutrition at the roots and not at the leaves like most plants). For Java fern and Anubia a good qualety liquid fertilizer will do. I suggest to adjust the lighting periods to a normal set up. A pause in the midle helps adjust the CO2 level for example. The light periods should be at least 4 hour never less!!! I suggest the next schedule:

light on at 7:00 to 13:00
light out 13:00 to 16:00
light on 16:00 to 23:30

New plants will have difficulties because most plants from the shops are grown emersed. When put in your tank they need to adjust and grow under water leaves. This is a hard period for the plants. At the same time they have to adjust to the color spectrum of your lights as well not to forget the water parameters. Because you also have a low light level tank the plants will have it even more difficult. Best situation would be plants that already are adjust to the aquatic live. This way they only have to adjust to the low light level and the new spectrum of the light. I definitely do suggest a cool white becouse of the spectrum. It looks fresh and does contain all the necessary colors for good plant growth and a reduced algea growth. You do need a mirror on that 15 Watt tube light that's for sure! Without I agrea on number6 that the light level is to low. The water does need to be clear and not colored by peat for example. The coloration will take away a lot of light. You won't be able to grow floating plants,....those also take away a lot of light. Best bet is on the Echinodorus species and especially the Java Fern! Java fern is easy to get, cheap and doesn't require higher light levels. You do need to grow the plants straight below the tubelight and not at the dark sides. Your Bolivians definitely will appreciate to low light levels!

A higher light level (say 1 wpg or more) allows you to grow more difficult plants and a higher growth rate. This brings along that plants need more nutrition and a higher CO2 level. If not given algea can take it over easely. Very high levels of light (say 2 wpg or more) require a CO2 system and a fertilizing schedule. Only a few are able to keep such a planted tank nice without it.

Good luck :thumb:


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

:lol:

You guys!

For what it's worth, I've grown a load of plants in my 35 gallon with two 11w bulbs over it - 22w 
total. Neither of them are the best bulbs, in thick waterproof plastic housing that sits on top of a 
drip sheet, I used them because they are all I had at the time and I got as I could out of them 
by fitting *mylar* reflectors behind the bulbs and keeping all the objects between the light 
and the tank as clean as possible, to minimise refraction. They're two separate bulbs 
about 7 inches long, so they don't even cover the whole tank in lenth and are spread out a little.

Use mylar as reflectors, nothing else compares, I cannot stress enough that this stuff is the 
most reflective material (of nearly the entire light spectrum) that we currently have at our 
disposal.

A hood is one of the best light saving devices you could build/buy. A properly constructed hood 
covered in mylar will bounce pretty much all the light that otherwise refracts at the surface, 
straight back into the tank.

I've grown plants in a 20 gallon with 11w of light, didn't have algae issues, growth was 
obviously slow, but in a balance between stocking, ferts and water changes, it works. I don't 
know if I'd recommend it straight off to someone new to plants, mostly because it is something 
that takes a little more knowledge/experience to both gauge and execute. If someone doesn't 
have much money to invest then there are still ways to enjoy a planted tank by making small 
changes to their basic equipment and then crafting everything else around creating the balance 
needed to grow plants.

This is my easy stock plant list, I've grown either some or all of those plants in a combination 
of tanks - 55 gallon 2x30w, 35 gallon 2x11w, 20 gallon 1x11w, 10 gallon 1x11w.

*Floating plants:*
_Japanese Riccia
Salvinia Ariculata_

*Back/Sides:*
_Hygrophila rosae Australis
Hygrophylia Polysperma
Cyperus helferi
Echinodorus africanus
Ludwigian Natans
Hydrilla Verticiliata
Mayaca fluviatilis
Camboba Caroliana
Ludwigia Mullertii
_
*Mid:*
_Cryptocoryne wendtii Green
Eleocharis vivipara
Vallisneria spiralis
Aponogeton Crispus
Rotala Macrandra
Rotala Indica_

*Mid-to-front.*
_Echinodorus rubra
Anubias barteri Nana
Anubias heterophylla
Bacopa Monnerii
Ludwigia Natans
Echinodorus Latifolius_
*
Foreground:*
_Lilaeopsis novae - zelandiae
Ludwigia arcuata Requires pruning to create carpet effect.
Eleocharis Parvulus (Dwarf Hairgrass)
Sagittaria Natans 
_

I actually had a much harder time keeping my plants happy with 2x30w and 2x11w over the 
35, with that high level of light if I'd been too busy at work and hadn't managed a water change 
(3 hours at home if lucky) the algae would go nuts. In that tank I did it all, CO2, ferts, high 
light, planted substrate mix, followed Barrs EC guide as I've done before and it was too much 
for me.

Nope, with low light levels, sand substrate, no fertilisation and no CO2, this is my 55:









Now although it has 2x30w, in-between those two bulbs is the stupid built in ballast, instead of 
just putting it in a box and then making a thin lead for the wiring, the bulbs are as good as 
separated, so the front bulb barely lights the back - meaning that the front and back 
halves of the tank only really recieve their light from 1x30w tube.

Obviously it is not the same as a high tech, but it is still everything that I want from the tank, 
not only that, but I find it somewhat more natural than the overly dense dutch garden style.
The Aponogeton has flowered successfully, I have a new lily pad hitting the surface every three 
days, The foreground plants started from three small clusters and have spread on their own 
without my intervention (I like the wild look so they go where they go) and they have so far 
stood up to my Rotkeil occasionally grazing on them when I have not been able to feed him for 
a day or so.

I'm now going to bring in some of my quotes from other threads recently because a lot of 
similar answers and explanations would help here:



> I actually find it much easier to grow plants in sand and their root systems are
> expansive as any I've grown in specialist substrate (even root feeders) - all I used to do is stir
> in fertilization tablets which have been crushed up/alternately I use Red Seas Substrate
> Enricher (good stuff) and basically just mix that all the way through your sand. I haven't been
> ...





> This thread is of another 55 aquascape of mine, in it ferts, lighting, water change regime etc are
> discussed. Some really good info from other members:
> http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... ght+spectr um
> 
> ...





> Regarding CO2, I don't use it. It's not for any particular reason
> other than I've found it unnecessary with the low levels of light over my tanks. There were
> marginal increases in growth rate but nothing stunning, probably the biggest benefit of it in a
> balanced low-light system is it's ability to suppress algae - by ensuring your other plants are
> ...





> Remember not to plant too densely at first and to actually divide the plants out into plantlets, as
> they will need space to grow and expand. Ie a batch of cryptcoryne comes as a group of 5 or 6
> smaller plants, you can easily break these up into their smaller clusters and plant them, it gives
> a better chance of spreading out and a more successful establishment.


I follow a similar lighting schedule to Dutch Dude as this combats algae very effectively.

Well, I think for now that I've brought up enough points to mull over and consider, before you 
go any further. I tend to agree with number6 that with a little more light you are more likely to 
have success initially, but I disagree that plants cannot be grown in such conditions. I would 
certainly consider Number6 more experienced and knowledgeable than myself on the subject, 
in general, yet I am able to do what is said to be impossible or incredibly difficult with complete
ease. This is not to say Number6 is wrong, it is to point out the beauty of differing experiences 
and circumstances, hopefully instead of seeing each other as wrong we can take a little from 
each and add to our overall knowledge and therefore ability.

:thumb:

(Sorry for the epic wall of text!) I hope there were some useful answers in there for you OP, I 
tried to tie it all together.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

I never told plants were easy to grow at such low light levels but it is possible. I think it is just as easy/difficult as a high light leveled tank (Amani style). Those are realy hard to keep up and require a lot of pruning and fertilizing so the plants keep on going. When there is a lack on certain nutrition's in such a tank and plants are slowing down in growth, algea can take it over incredibly fast! I did read some info on the link Number6 put on here and I was surprised to read that Tom B. considers 2 WPG as a low light level. I think this is just a normal strength and leaning to high light levels. The last couple of years people start putting more and more equipment in their tanks and double the light strength. One of the reasons are the Amani style tanks. Who doesn't want to grow such a nice planted tank!? Well it is good for the manufacturers of the equipment and owners of fish stores becouse they can sell a lot of expensive equipment. People forget that 20 to 30 years ago those equipment was not known to the hobby and people were able to grow nice heavy planted tanks back then. A nice example are the "Holland" aquariums. Most plant substrates were clay or peat based and top layer was mostly sand.

I strongly belive that plant and algea growth has everything to do with a certain balance/unbalance. Finding this balance in a low light of high light level tank is not that easy but doable. Light levels in the midle (1.5 to 2 WPG) is the easiest in my experience. I agrea on number6 that the Watt per Gallon rule is not perfect and tank height and water color also does have a significant role in the light strength.

Some of the plants mentioned by Blairo are more demanding and no plants I suggest for your tank. Basically what he wrote is in line with my opinion. Dough it is not in line with the average well excepted rules known in most parts of the world. If you would put this on a forum for planted tanks people probably jump on it,...can't be done, rubbish and so on. Well,.....those will have to buy lots of expensive equipment and fertilizers. :wink:


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## remarkosmoc (Oct 19, 2005)

My 20g is planted with a 19W bulb, not a plant bulb but whatever came with it. I used flourite as a layer in the substrate and added leaf zone once a week. It grew very very thick quickly.


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## freirefishing (Jul 31, 2008)

the more w/g there is the better they will grow period. yes you can grow on lower w/g. plants wont be as robust,and will be susseptible to diseases more,than if they were grown with more light.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

All Dutch Dude and I are pointing out is that you _can_ successfully grow plants in 
surprisingly low light levels if you strike a balance. This same rule applies right the way through 
the scale, not just low light level tanks. It's *all* about finding the balance (read equilibrium).

It's not all about loads of light, my plants are plenty robust and healthy, with huge root 
masses, but that's because of the equilibrium between light levels, "nutrition" and co2, which 
keeps them growing and maintains their dominance in the tank. As I said earlier, they are 
obviously not as they would be in a much higher light set-up, but they are plenty healthy and 
vibrant with enough growth, to suite my needs. I have to prune every week, so it's not exactly 
slow growth.

If you chuck loads of light over a tank without compensating with the right balance of nutes, 
CO2 etc then you'll have just as many problems growing those plants as you would with a lack 
of light. It's not just the "WPG" it's the spectrum of the bulbs too, in combination with 
everything else, that makes a successful tank. This can either seem an intimidating and 
overwhelming task, or simply prove too expensive for the new plant enthusiast, so I'm going to
keep offering my alternative suggestions that have been working for me since I started in the 
hobby.

If you can afford it and you want to go that route, then I will always suggest more light - it just 
makes sense, but it does not mean that it is impossible to do otherwise . All we want to do is 
point this out, there is more than one way. If you don't have the cash to afford the light, 
substrate, ferts and CO2, you shouldn't be put off, there are alternatives.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

> plants wont be as robust,and will be susseptible to diseases


 That is what the industry of expensive equipment makes you want to belive. I suggest to do some check up on natural CO2 levels for example. You may find out that in nature the CO2 level is close to 8 mg/liter while in the Amani style tanks 20 mg/liter or more is normal. In my experience very fast growing plants are brighter colored and easy to break / demage. Plants from low light tanks are smaller darker colored and have very strong leaves. Plants with a lack on nutrition are also weak. So if the balance isn't right you may end up with very poor easy to break plants in a high light level tank.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

blairo1 said:


> You guys!


 What is truly ironic is that whenever the topic of low light comes up, I am ALWAYS on the opposite side of the room arguing that as little as a NO 20W can grow sword plants...

this is the first I've bumped into folks who think a 15W NO lamp will grow swords. Have either of you tried a NO 15W at 15 to 18" height over the plants? I have... just saying... multiple dissimilar examples aren't going to convince me that something will work when I tried so hard to break the rules and couldn't do it...



blairo1 said:


> For what it's worth, I've grown a load of plants in my 35 gallon with two 11w bulbs over it - 22w


 Not the same... I really like those little u tube flourescents... very efficient. Some say they are as good as T5s and I agree. Placed in the center of the tank, they create quite a strong spot light of light that would grow plenty. I used the same bulbs on my nano softie reef tank. WAY more light than a 15W T8



blairo1 said:


> I've grown plants in a 20 gallon with 11w of light, didn't have algae issues, growth was
> obviously slow, but in a balance between stocking, ferts and water changes, it works.


 This is perhaps the most interesting bit of information and "possibly" relevant though I'd guess this still was the spotlight effect growing plants in a smaller range. This is a tank setup I would try. I'd ask how many inches of floorspace were planted, but that might be for another thread.



blairo1 said:


> Use mylar as reflectors, nothing else compares, I cannot stress enough that this stuff is the
> most reflective material (of nearly the entire light spectrum) that we currently have at our
> disposal.


 Annolux aluminum beats mylar hands down... doesn't degrade over time either so you get a lifetime result... of course you pay for what you get. Mylar is about 1/10 the cost so who cares if you have to replace it 10x over... so I'd recommend mylar for the cost effect ratio.



blairo1 said:


> I follow a similar lighting schedule to Dutch Dude as this combats algae very effectively.


Didn't I recommend the broken photo period way back when to you Blairo? 
If it wasn't you, then no worries... it's just ironic to see this posted "at" me when I've been encouraging the broken photo period to folks for years as a great way to grow plants in very low light.

Over the years, I have managed to use a NO 15W lamp to grow floating plants (many kinds), java fern, java moss, anubias, bolbitis and one other plant but it eludes my memory at the moment... not much, and not what most folks are after when they talk about adding a few live plants to make fish feel at home.

I'm really stressing to you guys that the light levels can be bent very far, but down to a NO 15W lamp on a 28g is way too far from what I know...

waiting to be proven wrong though.

Anyone out there with a 1yr old tank with NO 15W on it and sword plants?


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

> it's just ironic to see this posted "at" me when I've been encouraging the broken photo period to folks for years as a great way to grow plants in very low light.


Number6,....nothing of this is posted "at" you but we just trying to argument that it is possible to grow plants on low light levels. So it is not pointed "at" you but pointed to the reader to try to get a balance and be able to grow plants on low light levels without the expensive stuff. I admit that this post isn't answering the question of the OP any more becouse he already made an diferent (probably easier) decision but we at least got a good discusion going on.

So back to the 15 Watt tubelight. I agrea that a 15 Watt tubelight produces les light per inch as a 18 Watt. Light strength per inch length of a 36 is significantly higher as those of the small tubelights. Why this is the case I don't know exactly but it probably has to do with the amounth of gas in the the lamp and temperature of the gas. In a high tank it is indeed more difficult to grow plants on low light levels. Especially in tanks with colored water from peat or a lot of driftwood.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Well I'm sorry if it seemed attacking, I was just pointing out my experience, hence my 
comments about how you were more knowledgeable about this (I remember those who have 
helped me ) and my later comments about how we can hopefully not take this as one saying 
the other is wrong, but that it is simply about sharing different experiences.

I brought all my quotations in simply for the informational value, specifically because it was 
about my experience with low light levels. I don't see the need to get defensive/attacking and it 
certainly wasn't intended in such a way.

:thumb:



> I would certainly consider Number6 more experienced and knowledgeable than myself on the
> subject...





> ..... hopefully instead of seeing each other as wrong we can take a little from
> each and add to our overall knowledge and therefore ability.


I just thought it was an interesting discussion, my initial "You guys" comment was trying to 
make light of what seemed to be developing into a stand-off. I actually learnt the light schedule
from Ruurd whilst reading one of his threads before I knew him. But that's really neither here 
nor there, I'm not attacking you bro, just discussing options and experiences.

If the reason I've had such success with low wattage (over 15" tall tanks) is due to the 
u-tubes being a lot more efficient than you are talking about, then that's something I want to 
test, I thought that as we were discussing such low level of lighting these would be the same 
bulbs that the OP would be considering using - they are the only aquarium bulbs at 11-15w that
I can find in my area and are the bulbs I was recommending at such wattage. Obviously you 
are talking about something different and I didn't realise that, which is my mistake.

Anyway, lets discuss some more, if T8s are (obviously) less effective, how have I had such 
success with my 2x30w T8s over my 55. The tank is 20" deep. Here are some root mass shots 
of my red lily, in sand, no ferts, no CO2, 34" 30w T8s, 21" above the substrate. Bear in mind, 
that due to the nature of the (stupid) factory hood the two bulbs in there are effectively split 
between the front and back half of the tank - if I take out one of the bulbs the opposite side of 
the tank receives almost no light, certainly not enough to make much difference, especially 
when the plants reach further up into the water column.










From what I understand red plants generally require higher levels of light, but this has thrown 
out three sizeable plantlets and as I mentioned earlier, a new lily pad hits the surface every 
three days. This is with 2x34" 30w T8s @ 21" above the substrate. No ferts, no root ferts, no 
CO2. Am I just lucky? My water here is incredibly pure with little KH and GH, so it's not like 
tere's much nutrition there, the tank is lightly stocked at the moment too. Oh and I know that 
once the pads are at the surface they're right at the light source, but I prune frequently to keep
the size down and in-between, when there are none on the surface, the growth is still the same.










Lets keep this friendly, that's how it was intended. These discussions are important and 
incredibly useful.

:thumb:


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

when I say "at", I don't feel attacked... just tossing the word out there about our whole point- counterpoint discussion. I love new info, and I mean it when I say how odd it feels to be on this side of this discussion. But I'm on it, so I am happy to keep exploring it.

Regards to the original poster, I am assuming that the light on his tank was the same light I had on my 28g tank... 15W normal output. In hindsight, I should have checked that. OP, if you are watching, please fill us in on that... Thanks! :thumb:

Red plants do not require higher light, but different light IME. I have had huge success growing red plants under cool white bulbs. I believe it was the large green spike in the cool white that red plants will use. I'm making a ton of educated guesses there, so I may be way off base. But in my experience, I could grow red plants including the red lily under lower light levels. Like your tank, I grew tons of plants under 3 30W T8s on a 60g (3ft long) tank... I even had to add CO2 despite the tank being a "low light tank". After running on 3 tubes, I even dropped it down to two and the plants adapted. At 60W of T8 lighting, IMHO we are well above the minimum light threshold for many plants so there is a wide range of plants that can adapt to that light level. Again... the W/G "rule" makes you think that 60W over 55g is VERY low light but it isn't really... 
a 33g long tank is thinner, but is the same height...

is 60W over 33g still VERY low light? Nope...

Heck, I could run around telling everyone that my last tank grew plants at .36W/G and send everyone scratching their heads... crypts and a sword plant growing at .36W/G :thumb:

It was a 36W compact fluorescent lamp over that side of the tank, LEDs lighting the rest of a 100g tank... :lol:

That was at 20" high, so you can see that I'm THE rule breaker when it comes to plants... or more like rule bender, since 36W at 20" of length is well above the minimum light threshold for Crypts and swords.

So... my question at both of you... when you suggest that a single 15W bulb spread over a 28g tank might be enough to still grow swords, are you taking your own experiences and breaking it down to the proper significant elements to the puzzle?

From my perspective, I still say the devil here is in the details...


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Number6 said:


> So... my question at both of you... when you suggest that a single 15W bulb spread over a 28g tank might be enough to still grow swords, are you taking your own experiences and breaking it down to the proper significant elements to the puzzle?
> 
> From my perspective, I still say the devil here is in the details...


Well yes and no - you see yes I have grown swords and many of the plants I listed earlier in a 30 under such quantities, but no in terms of the devilish details - in that the bulb I used was one of the u-tube types, rather than the NO that we're talking about, that was, as I mentioned earlier, my mistake.

When I say I ran "0.36" wpg I mean "0.36wpg" of HO light, so the difference is in the Lux - I am quite aware that the same wattage can equate to different Lux and Lumen output, I just didn't put two and two together in realising that the bulbs you guys were talking about were different - as I say, there's only one type of small wattage aquarium bulb that I can get here (u-tubeHO), my mistake was in assuming that it would be the same elsewhere.

Well now that I'm curious I'm going to experiment using the light metering equipment I have at my disposal, just need to waterproof it up and I can take readings at different positions in the tank - I'm thinking, as an example:

Inches from source. Placement. Reading.
2" Front .........
2" Mid ........
2" Back .........
4"
6"

And so on, in this way I would get the best measure of light spread and intensity in my set-ups, I'll then do the same with a matched wattage NO bulb and see what the differences are. I'll use my 11w HO u tube types first, then I'll go find a NO 11w (desk lamp should do it).

Can I grow swords with a 11w U-shape CFL over a 15" deep 30 (35 actually) yes, I did for many many months, but the plants were placed so that they would receive as much light as possible - not right out near the fringe where the plants obviously would not grow. And obviously this is not the NO that we're talking about.

So have I grown swords using a 15w NO over my 35, nope, no arguments from me there.....


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

I guest the light strength underneath a U shape fluorescent bulb is higher per square inch as for a T8 tube light. The OP was posting abouth a 15 Watt 20 inch long tube light. That is the smallest size "common" TL availeble on the European market and some manufacturers use it in low budget tanks (Jewel).

FYI my 50 gallon tank from the pic I posted over here is 20 high, 16 wide and 40 long with only one single T8 30 Watt tube light of the brand Philips color spectrum 840 = new type cool white with a mirror on top of it. No additional lights.

I agrea on Blairo that red plants are the more challenging plants and need a higher light output,...or at least do well on higher light outputs. They often require more nutrition ecspecialy iron.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

blairo1 said:


> Inches from source. Placement. Reading.
> 2" Front .........
> 2" Mid ........
> 2" Back .........
> ...


Don't forget this little test!


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

:lol: I wont bro, I'm just waiting to get some more cover from my lily so I can take readings under that too.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

I can't find a NO 11w anywhere..... Any ideas. I've tried looking at cupboard lighting etc and I can't find anything less than 30w. This is really frustrating as I want to do this test - gotta do it whilst the other half is out too because it's her light metering equipment I'm submerging :lol:.


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## Philg (May 14, 2007)

very useful discussions in this thread


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

I'm still stumped as to testing this fairly. I might just take the readings from my tanks anyway but without some control to compare it to the figures wont mean a lot.


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## cc_woman (Jan 31, 2008)

Great info guys. I will just tell you what I have on my planted tanks and leave it at that since they have basically covered everything.

40 gallon planted:
-2 Hagen natural plant systems (yeast CO2) which I mix my own yeast batch, and do this every 2 weeks
-+ 2xadditional DIY 2 liter pop bottle CO2
-Currently have 108 watts of light, my best suggestion is going with something like the T5HO units with double bulbs
-substrate is small gravel mixed with seachem fluorite gravel
-all swords and heavy root feeders get a fertilizer spike
-dose with seachems comprehensive formula every 3 days, and iron 2x a week
-plant species are valisneria, dwarf riccia, crinum calamistratum, amazon sword, rotala rotundifolia, Hygrophila corymbosa 'Siamensis' , and ammania sp. 'bonsai', and 2 onion plants.

5 gallon planted tank:
-26W of lighting
-dose every other day with some flourish excel for CO2, and every 3 days with iron or comprehensive.
-substrate is a fine gravel mixed with fluorite
-I am not sure of all the plants names....too lazy to look them up, but last night I bought some hemianthus callitrichoides (if don't do well will be moved to 40g), then I have some java ferns, anubias, 1 small sword, and a couple of others I need to check the name on.

10g planted:
-24W of lighting
-same dosing of excel and ferts as 5g
-substrate is play sand
-plants are java moss and java ferns, testing out one little val to see if he grows

10g planted:
-24W of lighting
-same ferts
-sand substrate
-a baby amazon sword and some java ferns

90gallon planted:
-56W for lighting
-just hooked up one hagen natural plant system, and dose with excel for CO2. ferts are the same routine as the other tanks
-no substrate, but I have all my plants tied onto driftwood
-plants are some rotala rotundifolia, wisteria, java ferns, java moss, one amazon sword and another I am not sure of the name of yet.

So it is possible to grow some plants in lower lighting. For me I am running some tests with different plants to see how well they do in that set up since most of mine are slightly different. But to me 15W is too little to grow much of anything but in a shallow tank. Remember that the depth of the tank also matters in how strong the lights should be. I am sure the plants grow much better in my 5 gallon, but if I had the exact same lighting and had them all in my 90 gallon, chances are they will not do so well. I like the W/G rule as sort of an estimate at how much light I will need for my tanks and medium-high light plants. And of course you will want to go for a spectrum of more redish yellow tones rather than blues. My T5HO have a spectrum of 6700 which is decent for plants.


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