# wet/dry or sump whats the difference?



## eyeguy05 (Apr 9, 2004)

i currently have a 150 gallon with 2 canister filters and i am interested in running a sump or wet/dry, but not sure what the difference is between the 2 or what i need. my tank is not drilled nor do i want to drill it. i have a aquatop500 and api filstar medium for my 2 filters currently. any and all help is greatly appreciated.


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## Narwhal72 (Sep 26, 2006)

All wet/dry's include a sump. But a sump does not necessarily include a wet/dry.

The sump is just the vessel below the main aquarium. A wet/dry combines a sump with biological media that the water trickles through (the "dry" part of the wet/dry).

Some marine applications do not use additional biological filtration so a sump becomes a platform for protein skimmers and reactors instead of having them hanging on or inside the display tank. There is not much call for that in a freshwater application where a wet/dry filter would be the preferred application.


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## eyeguy05 (Apr 9, 2004)

so im looking at either the one for the 180 or 200 what do you think? is there something better for a cheaper?

http://www.aqua-linkadp.com/standard-2000-series.html


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## Narwhal72 (Sep 26, 2006)

Personally, I would recommend an Aqueon Proflex. But I am not impartial.

The ones in the link look like basic wet/dry designs from the 1990's. I would avoid the angled sides as it greatly reduces the volume of water the sump can hold during a power outage. It does make accessing the pump easier, but you run the risk of an overflow during a power outage.


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## Fish Jerk (Mar 9, 2016)

They look extremely expensive for basically a plastic box with some sponge in it. Aqueon looks much better but it also looks very expensive.

It's my understanding all of the wet/dry will suck out your oxygen and co2 so I would not use them for freshwater fish or plants.

I have considered making a mattenfilter sump. Will apparently remove nitrates and is very simple and lasts basically forever.

You just have a return on one end, feed on the other, and some poret sponge dividers of varying porosity in between. You can use the empty space for baby fry, uv sterilizer, other filters, or whatever.


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## somebody (May 13, 2014)

Custom is the way to go. If you want fancy top of the line and highly efficient clean well managed look go with aqueon or some other professional product. A lot and time goes into the design of these and that are basically plug and play save the few modifications to the dt.

Custom sumps have the ability that is far superior than any pre-made piece of overpriced acrylic and it's in the name .... custom. With a bit of research and understanding of filtration needs and efficiency of different media's custom sumps are far more superior than pre-made. You have the ability to customize it the way specific to your needs and your specific tank.


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

Fish Jerk said:


> They look extremely expensive for basically a plastic box with some sponge in it. Aqueon looks much better but it also looks very expensive.
> 
> It's my understanding all of the wet/dry will suck out your oxygen and co2 so I would not use them for freshwater fish or plants.


Can you provide any reference for the "suck out oxygen and CO2"?

Generally it is accepted that a wet dry set up INCREASES exchange rates of gasses. There are more effective ways to go with FW and the wet dry concept is not as effective as in SW, but it works.


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

It is pretty straightforward to build a sump, the trick is getting the water to the sump without drilling the tank. I used HOB overflows for 10 years and only ran into issues when I screwed something up. Many people don't like them, I'd use them again if I needed to.

I'd recommend doing some searches here for poret foam, which is a media that many of us are using in our sumps.

FWIW - the sump on my 125 is an old 30 gallon tank, where I added 3 pieces of glass to channel the water through it. Total cost was maybe 40 bucks - that excludes media and pump, but you get the idea.


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## somebody (May 13, 2014)

To touch on what Nodima said, I built mine out of a God awfully scratched tank behind someone's house. An old 55, I added a few lexan (plexiglass) baffles, some media (bio balls, pillow stuffing), planted it, and put it on a light schedule and mine can be used for a sw tank for less than $50, not including pump, and ato. I built it with intentions of moving to switch in the future.

I do have to say the "refugium" part isn't necassary for a healthy aquarium but it does have a major difference in the algae growth (none noteworthy) and I do see a difference in the quality of the water and overall health of the tank. It also added about 30 gallons to my system (125 and a 55 sump)

Sumps do keep oxygen at saturation levels and gas exchange is very efficient in them. If given the chance to do it over again I would change nothing. I love my sump and it has treated me right. On all of my future tanks I will sump them.

I prefer drilled over hob overflow.


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## Fish Jerk (Mar 9, 2016)

That is what I read somewhere though I can't imagine why that would be true. It was either a poret-related site or else a fluidized sand bed site.

I have a little 5 gallon plastic tank I was thinking of trying to make a mini sump with. I also have a canister filter. Is it realistic to use poret filter in something so small and letting gravity return the water to the tank? I'm kind of out od space on that wall.


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## Fish Jerk (Mar 9, 2016)

Now that I think of it, they were probably trying to say that wet/dry filters remove co2 not o2. Is that the case?


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## somebody (May 13, 2014)

Fish Jerk said:


> I have a little 5 gallon plastic tank I was thinking of trying to make a mini sump with.


I recommend larger because the smaller the less room you have for error. The 1 inch pvc overflow, triangle overflow (normal level), and the return line all backflow about 2 gallons before siphon break when I shut off the pump. I designed about 20 gallons space in my sump for backflow and error in design for situations like power outage and shut downs and blockages in returns. You really want about 40% room for margin of errors and unforseen circumstances.

The off gassing is caused by the turbulent flow through the overflow pipe and the dry aspect of a wet dry. Think Turbulence and surface break. Co2 is minimal due to high oxygenation of the water in these areas. That's why i chose to put non co2 requiring plants in my tank and fuge.


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## Narwhal72 (Sep 26, 2006)

> I have a little 5 gallon plastic tank I was thinking of trying to make a mini sump with. I also have a canister filter. Is it realistic to use poret filter in something so small and letting gravity return the water to the tank? I'm kind of out od space on that wall


A 5 gallon tank is not practical for forming a sump out of. Remember that when the pump is turned off the water above the inside lip of the overflow in the main tank plus any that drains down through the return line will drain into the sump. The sump needs to have enough volume to hold all this water plus the normal level of water during normal operation. A 5 gallon tank is probably only practical as a sump for a 10-20 gallon aquarium.

I am not sure what you mean about gravity returning the water to the tank. Water only flows downhill. You can't make it go back up to the tank.

An alternative to a sump is to put the filter above the display aquarium. Put a pump in the aquarium and pump it up to the filter above the tank. Then gravity will be used to return the water to the aquarium.

But you lose surface skimming that way.

Andy


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## Fish Jerk (Mar 9, 2016)

Ok, I think I get it about co2/oxygen now. I did not think aeration removed co2 but I guess that does make sense because it can't be all one way and there is not much co2 in normal air.

As for the sump, maybe sump is a bad name for what I want to do. Forgive me because I have not used a sump before and may not understand the terminology well.

What I want to do is use either a small tank or large water bottle - about 5 gallons and place it above my aquariums, then take the outlet from my canister filter and place it in this little aquarium, which would contain some poret foam wall dividers in between the entry and the exit. The entry would be from the canister and the exit would be drilled into the small aquarium. The large aquarium is acrylic and was expensive so I don't want to risk messing around with drilling it.

I just want to make sure this is doable before wasting time and money on it. Technically I should be able to drain the water fast enough with a big enough pipe, but I am concerned with the poret foam slowing the draining too much. The canister moves water fairly fast. I could put the poret across yet another tank which is the one that the canister intake lives in but I don't want to ugly up the tank too much. I'm also planning to replace it with something bigger because the bracing is falling apart and I don't want it to shatter some day. So if I put some foam in that one now then it will wind up being thrown away in a few months.


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## Fish Jerk (Mar 9, 2016)

Maybe I can get a ten up there...I think it's pushing it to go beyond that. Also, my DIY ability is decent but not magnificent and I don't have the best tools so I don't want to ruin a useful larger tank screwing around.


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## Narwhal72 (Sep 26, 2006)

Ok. What you are describing is sort of a trickle filter but not a sump. Above the aquarium filtration is fairly common in Asia but never really caught on in the U.S.

It will work fine but be sure that you have a second drain or standpipe that water can bypass in case the Poret clogs up with detritus. Otherwise it will overflow all over the place. Even just cutting the Poret low so the water can go over top will work fine.


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## Fish Jerk (Mar 9, 2016)

A bypass drain. That is a great idea. That is exactly what I need.


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## somebody (May 13, 2014)

I see, yes you are trying to get the befits of a sump eg increased water volume and increased filtration capacity.

1) as narwhal suggested, you now have to compensate for the lvolume of water down to the lowest possible point for draining. Example: 5 gallon tank empty of media with say a hole drilled halfway up the vertical plane of the side or the front or back of the Berlin sump. 2.5 gallons below the drain hole and 2.5 gallons above. The tank will drain down to the lowest point of the hole. Now you have to compensate for that backflow in your display tank.

The concept you suggest of canister filter will work but you need to direct the water through the foam. Then after that you allow it to fall with no restrictions. The foam will decrease the flow, how much I don't know. May be negligible may be significant enough to cause overfill in your 5 gallon. All you can do is run tests and when you understand how it works and the basic functionality of it and simulate scenarios that may cause a spill to the point where you are comfortable with your findings then apply them to your system.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Narwhal72 said:


> It will work fine but be sure that you have a second drain or standpipe that water can bypass in case the Poret clogs up with detritus. Otherwise it will overflow all over the place. Even just cutting the Poret low so the water can go over top will work fine.


A second bypass/over flow is a good idea. My first trickle filter I built over 20 years ago was a simple 5 gallon pail with 4" abs pipe draining into the tank. Fluval 404 canister to pump the water into the pail above the tank and thought it was a sufficient pre-filter to ensure the trickle filter stayed clean. :lol: About 2 years, before it plugged and started to overflow all over the place; lucky I happened to be there when it happened.
Then I built my own sump out of a 45 gallon plastic drum and 10 gallon pale partially raised above it. Ran 2 tanks off of it and used for over 10 years. Again my pre-filter did not "cut" it. Pump was rated at 1800 gph at 6 ft. of head and smashed mulm right through the pre-filter and into the lower areas of the sump. Poorly designed pre-filter meant far too much filtration media to clean!
Went back to just canisters over 5 years ago and have not regretted since. There's "insurance" with a sump and possibly benefits with greater oxidation, but in established tank, ammonia and nitrite are always zero, so I see the large volume of filtration media as redundant. Uncleaned filtration media and collection of waste generally means higher nitrates. Of coarse with a good pre-filter that can be cleaned easily and frequently, a sump may very well be the superior filtration method.


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## somebody (May 13, 2014)

I think we got off eyeguys original question:

Sumps, in respect to aquariums, are containers built in line the system to increase many factors. Just to name a few, increases water volume (the solution to pollution is dilution), added area for miscellaneous equipment you don't want cluttering up your display. the list goes on especially for custom sumps.

As for the types there really are only 3 types, after that its only combinations of the 3.

The types are:

*Berlin-* this is the basic type of sump really only used for water volume increase and a place to hide you equipment. Requirements for this type of sump is a tank with a baffle to control water level, and a return pump.

*wet/dry-* for this type of sump you need a tank, baffles to direct waterflow over top of media to allow to drain down, some sort of distribution plate to spread the water over the entire media area, and a baffle or set of baffles to control the height of the water to make the dry part of the media not under water and have the water flow evenly over the entire media chamber. This can be modified to just a wet filter just by arranging the baffles as to control the level of water to keep the media submerged. Like a chamber stuffed with poret foam. Bio balls need the dry part to make them efficient people say but they can go both ways due to beneficial bacteria growing on all submerged surfaces.

*refugium- * this type is normally only used on saltwater tanks. It provides a sort of "safehaven" for microorganisms that benefit that type of habitat. This is not normally seen on freshwater aquariums because there is no documented proof that they provide any sort of benefit to a freshwater habitat. Experience will tell you otherwise especially with planted tanks.

Personally I have built two sumps in my life, I am by no means a pro. With that said I built my wet/dry "fuge" and since doing so I will have it no other way. I used an old 55 gallon that was still fit for service just not display tank material. I built into the design a 1 cubic foot planted refugium (10 gallons) and a 1 cubic foot two tier wet dry filter (10 gallons). The refugium was also used as a grow out or a sort of hospital/ quarantine area for beat up fish. It has a lighting schedule for the plants and they are opposite the display tanks lighting schedule. I did that for a sort of co2 purpose. The refugium is before the wet dry because I had corydoras in it to help with the excess food that fell. Snails are also in there to help with the algae. In media chamber 1 I run bio balls (dry) and in chamber 2 I run pillow stuffing from Walmart (wet). The pillow stuffing helps with polishing, a lot!!
In the "in" and "out" side I have about 6 inches of space (2x 5 gal), that holds my ato float, return pump, and uv sterilizer pump (and return). Totaling out to 30 gallons the extra 20ish gallons are for "mishaps".

I hope this has been enough information for you to help your decision in weather or not to sump. If you ask me I say do it but make it worth you while (40% your display tank) you can go smaller as many do and you can for sure go bigger answer the others do. You can never have enough filtration and the more water the more diluted the pollution becomes. Also two the more water the more mess (potentially). Sorry for the long winded post. Thanks for reading, peace!


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## eyeguy05 (Apr 9, 2004)

so what would i need if i wanted to build my own wet dry? im finding out that it will be much cheaper for me to go that route and im pretty handy. does anyone have a go by from one they built? i will have to use a 3 foot tank as my stand is only a four footer and i want to keep one of my canister filters under there.


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## somebody (May 13, 2014)

This was in early development but you get the idea...

















I changes a few baffles around as I was tinkering and finding what I liked best


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## somebody (May 13, 2014)

As for what you need... ask yourself..... what do I not have in that picture


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## eyeguy05 (Apr 9, 2004)

somebody said:


> As for what you need... ask yourself..... what do I not have in that picture


everything.. but isnt there alot more to it? plumbing, pump and other stuff? i know i will need an overflow box.


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## somebody (May 13, 2014)

If you choose not to drill your tank then yes overflow box.

To know exactly what plumbing wise you need I need to know what gph you are looking to achieve, how large your system and how large you want your sump. I use 1300 gph pump at 4.5 ft head and the manufacturer of my pump says that's roughly 1100 gph. I'm running 1 inch sch 40 pvc on overflow and return. Of you want more than one return I would suggest multiple smaller pipes off a larger header for example 








As for overflow I don't trust siphon powered plumbing for a permanent solution. I prefer the drilled method. If you have to run an overflow box make sure you run emergency scenarios outside where if you spill some it won't damage the house. Understand how it works and predict what happens when you do things to it to prevent flow or siphon breaks. In the event of a siphon break nothing serious will happen if you have room in your display tank for how much your sump will discharge before running dry. In my drawing I have it math'd out to be 3 gallons. Real life it's a little more.


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## somebody (May 13, 2014)




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## somebody (May 13, 2014)

I just went back and looked at the link you provided. That's actually not a bad price at all. Overflow boxes, size dependant and equipment provided, run you anywhere from 80 to 200 dollars. The more you research them you will get a better idea.

As for a pump, I'd run minimum 1200 gph through the sump. The 10x tank volume can apply here but also remember the added volume of the sump.


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## CichlidCurious9891 (Mar 15, 2016)

I've always DIY sumps - but you can also buy kits to make the process easier. I would highly recommend modular marine if you want to go the kit route. The sell bean animal style overflows, edge overflows, and wetdry kits. Easily 1/2 of the price you would pay for a brand name. My only complaint is they use arlyic parts instead of glass - glass bonds better to silicon, but the product is very well made.


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