# The mother of overstocked community tanks.



## DirtyBlackSocks (Jan 24, 2008)

My camera isn't all that great, I'll try to get better shots tonight when there isn't so much light around - note the discus are showing stress bars because I turned the lights on about 10 seconds prior to taking the video.

http://s85.photobucket.com/albums/k45/D ... ids001.flv

Contents:
4 clown loach
1 yo yo loach
2 siamensis
1 albino bushynose pleco
1 longfin bushynose pleco
1 ottocinclus
5 angelfish - 3 peruvian altum, 2 gold pearlscale
3 discus - blue turq high bodied
6 bolivian ram
5 blue ram
4 bosemani rainbow
4 congo tetra
2 wag tail platy

Plants:
Anubias nana
Anubias nana "gold"
Anubias barteri v. ekona
Sunset hygro
Tiger hygro
Giant hygro
Needle leaf java fern
Java fern
Amazon swords
Various crypts.
Dwarf sag.

Built in overflow with a sump in the back - pushing 900 gph.

75 gallon tank - nitrates are staying consistently under 20 ppm with weekly 50%+ water changes.

This is not a breeding tank and is intentionally overstocked to curb any sort of pairing behavior, which in so far it has successfully done.

Comments and death threats are welcome.


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## DirtyBlackSocks (Jan 24, 2008)

Actually the opposite, that it can be done - and with 15 years of experience under my belt I'd say I'm right. I was actually expecting some general conversation on how experience combined with careful planning can help people break the rules.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

DirtyBlackSocks said:


> Actually the opposite, that it can be done - and with 15 years of experience under my belt I'd say I'm right. I was actually expecting some general conversation on how experience combined with careful planning can help people break the rules.


Hey DBS,

I wouldn't have thought this by your innitial thread. Maybe if you had introduced this tank with a paragraph or two on how you set it up to cope with the overcrowding, why you chose each species and how they each fit in the over all mix, and how the aquascaping design helps the fish cope with overcrowding.

I do agree that years of experience and carefull planning can enable people to achieve success with stocking tanks that less experienced people really shouldn't try.

How long has the tank been set up with it's current stocking levels? I'd like to see how this tank progresses as the juvenile angels and discus reach maturity. Have any of the rams looked like pairing up? I'm interested to see if overstocking does curb thier natural desire to breed.

Maybe you could keep us updated monthly on this tank. Along the lines of a diary or log book. Make sure to include special updates for any unexpected occurances.


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## Jerseyfish (Apr 16, 2008)

Seems pretty cool. I'm wondering two things:

What's the temperature/ph in that tank, as to keep everyone happy?

What's the maturity level on most fish? It looked like the rams in the video were near full size while the discus/angels are young adults at best.

I wish you good luck with the tank. Be interesting to see how it progresses, and if the younger fish can grow properly, as that is what I would consider the biggest 'issue' here. Hope you keep us updated.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

I'm surprised but somehow I expected something like this. You post a lot over here and give tons of free advice. I don't think this will add to your credibility. Your not only have a very high stock level (once the fish grow to adult size,...if they will reach it!) but you also mixed in fish with diferent needs. For example the Bolivians and GBR. It is doable but you need to put both fish on their temperature limit or just over. The GBR to cold and the Bolivians to hot. Except for that you also put in discus that require high temps around 28C to 30C. So for someone who claims to be very experienced and knowledgeable I would not expect such a tank. I hope you will think abouth it and put aside the proud of knowing everything and start thinking abouth the health of the fish and realy use your knowledge in stead of showing,..."see what I can do!"


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Well, the tank looks great! :thumb:

I have a similar situation right now in a 55G tank, I know it's overstocked but it's working _for now_ and I am ready to make the necessary changes as problems arise.

I look at it as somewhat of a "grow out" tank, but it would be really amazing if it worked out long term!

IMO, as long as you're aware of what you _may_ need to do and have the tank space to move fish to or the resources to get rid of them if need be, it's well worth a try.

But, for the experienced cichlid keeper only!

I agree with DFF, it would be great if you continued this thread and posted follow ups on it!

Kim


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2008)

I agree that with careful planning and experiences, you can break rules. But there are things that you shouldn't do and can't do. I am currently keeping albino BNs, congos, clown loaches, otos, bosemanis, Bolivian, GBR, Discus, and others in a same tank. DBS and I seem to like a lot of the same fish.  I have had them in the same tank over a year and they alll seem to be doing well. I keep my tank temp at 86F to 88F. I have heard this is too warm for Bolivians, congos, and otos, but they at least appear to be heathy and well. I am planning on keeping the temp at 84F.

I do think that DBS's tank will be quite a bit croweded once all the fish grow to their adult size. So, I would be interested in seeing how this tank would evolve. Good luck and keep us posted.


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## DirtyBlackSocks (Jan 24, 2008)

the angelfish are at adult size or just under an inch from it - I've decided to remove the discus as I can't provide the heat they'd appreciate with the plants in the tank, and even though they'll survive just fine they won't thrive by any means.

So far everything is working out fine - I've got a 120 gallon on stand by for the clown loach, bosemani, and yo yo loach as they age, probably the galaxy pleco as well.

This tank's been up and running for about 3 months - with small additions here and there, but for the most part the overstocking is keeping aggression levels down.

The blue ram are about half the size of the bolivian, which are wild caught adults, and I added them about two weeks after the bolivian, yet they seem to be taking over the bolivians territory - which I found interesting.

pH 7.8,
Temp. 80.6 degrees steady
As I said nitrates have never gotten above 20 ppm without me adding nitrogen supplements for the plants.

As far as HITH goes I'm not worried about it because of the plants - some people underestimate what they can really do for a tank and fishes health.

I'll keep posting in here - just woke up so I'll get back to any questions I missed.


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## jcushing (Apr 6, 2008)

very pretty tank, i like the ecocomplete/driftwood/plant contrast.

i agree moving hte discus out was a good idea


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

> the angelfish are at adult size or just under an inch from it - I've decided to remove the discus as I can't provide the heat they'd appreciate with the plants in the tank, and even though they'll survive just fine they won't thrive by any means.


 A wise thing to do! :thumb: Back to normal stock levels and you put the most sensitive fish separate so they can get the space and atention they need especially during grow out. The only real compromise are the GBR and Bolivians but if you keep the tank at 27C both may cope the temp.

I am wondering what this post is all abouth. You start with an overstocked tank and "see what I can do becouse I'm experienced", and within a day you go to a normal set up. Good for the fish and it makes me feel better abouth them to, but why all of this DBS? what are you trying to discus or to achieve? Sorry I don't get it!


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## DirtyBlackSocks (Jan 24, 2008)

Removing 3 discus doesn't exactly make this tank understocked by a long shot - I see a lot of people playing the conservative side on these forums with stocking levels and thought I'd start a thread to prove a point - while species specific and lightly stocked tanks are great for breeding, a community tank like this can be done.

If I were to pop on here and make this post, minus the discus - as a new member - I would get torn in half by a lot of people on here.

The point of this thread was to start a journal type deal on how plants can make all the difference in an overstocked tank.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

DirtyBlackSocks said:


> If I were to pop on here and make this post, minus the discus - as a new member - I would get torn in half by a lot of people on here.


Hey DBS,

I think most of us try not to tear newbies in half, usually the quickest way to discourage people from the hobby. Many of us do try provide explanations with our posts about peoples current or suggested stocking levels.

A couple of things make you and your tank different from a newbie.

First your experience within the hobby and your understanding of how a tank behaves as a isolated ecosystem. Your experience has also enabled you to pick a variety of species that aren't overly aggressive, and won't kill each other in a single outright fight. Quite often beginners pick a number of fish for thier first tank, without knowing that some months down the road that thier little GT and Texas are going to have a run in for top dog, while the firemouth and angelfish cower in th top rear left corner of the 55 gallon tank.

Secondly you have a number of other tanks you can temporarily remove individuals to if problems do occurr. This enables you to deal with problems instantly, instead of having to waite 12 to 24 hours before you can get to a LFS to buy new equipment, that's if they can afford to.

A reason many of us prefer to understock, is that we feel our fish are _happier_ in such conditions. They don't have to compete for space, territories or breeding sites.

I know that I am often guilty of trying to pass my ideal stocking beliefs onto other people, but I do try to explain that I prefer community tanks that have a certain balance, similar to what I percieve a natural ecosystem resembles. Which in reality may be nothing like one of my tanks.

At the end of the day, I feel I am acting in the fishes best interest when I suggest low stocking levels, and I hope the owner can understand this. And yes I do know there is an arguement about whether it is humane of not to keep fish in an aquarium at all. That's one I can't offer an acceptable answer for, becuase I keep my tanks for entirely selfish reasons, my enjoyment.


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## Jerseyfish (Apr 16, 2008)

DirtyBlackSocks said:


> If I were to pop on here and make this post, minus the discus - as a new member - I would get torn in half by a lot of people on here.


And despite not being new around here, you still got quite a bit of shred it seemed. I know I've not posted my 72 for that very reason. I'm happy and proud of my tank, but I'd rather not be torn up for possibly having to much in there. It's not quite the full house DBS had, but its got lots of critters.

Anyhow, I look forward to keeping up with this journal.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Oke DBS, your intentions are clear now. It is good to discus stock levels but I strongly suggest to be clear to new people in the hobby that the conventional believes abouth stock levels are a save way to go. If you chose to get an overstocked tank you will need to pull a lot of knowledge into it to keep the fish happy. But,...every tank does have it's limit. Maybe you feel like I "jumped" on you but I did for good reasons! I would definitely not recommend your set up. Taking out the Discus creates more space for the other fish, lowers the waste level significant (young discus needs a lot of feeds and are messy feeders) and you removed the most sensitive fish. The stock levels are still high but doable depending on filtration and water changes. The heavy planted tank is beneficial like you already mentioned and that's the reason why I previously wrote that your back at a normal stock level.

Overstocked tanks is quit an issue dough. Lots of people new to the hobby like lots of species and often overstock their tanks. When your not experienced you can come across lots of troubles and even might lose the interest in the hobby. So on the SA forum people give their advice but usually not jump on people. Did you noticed this lately on the SA forum DBS? Why I gave my opinion on your treat the way I did? Well,....your not new and I may assume you are knowledgeable abouth fish and their needs. To make such a post you are provoking such a discussion. Nothing wrong with that but you could also expect the feedback that I gave. The second reason is that your set up may inspire new people in the hobby. Most of us know this might end up in one big bole of smelly fish soup, so not a good example imo. Third,...I don't mind if you are 15 years in the hobby, are millionaire, well known or what ever,....I give my advice and opinion (regardless of your background) and I leave it up to you what to do with it.

I hope I didn't offend you.

I'm quit sure I contributed to this discussion :wink:


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I think the difference between many of us and many new hobbyist lies in the fact that we are aware of the potential for disaster, and we do have other tanks to move fish into if need be.

With that being said, I don't talk about half my daring escapades in my fish tanks on here, because I don't want a new (unsuspecting) hobbyist to choose the route I chose! :lol:

It's hard to look at things the same way when an experienced hobbyist does something vs. a "newbie" doing the same thing, especially when you're answering a post. We talk to some of these people every day, and know that they have lots of tank space sitting around to make the necessary changes as needed.

For someone just getting started in the hobby, that tank would/could be a disaster. My fear would be that it would turn them off the hobby altogether when it blew up.

DBS's stock list didn't scare me at all. I've done crazier things.

But he's right. Had he been a newcomer to the hobby, I would have warned him.

I'm still very anxious to watch this thread/tank evolve, and I know that DBS will post the _downs_ and well as the _ups_!

Kim


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2008)

Aslo, nothing wrong with the overstocked tanks as long as you take good care of it. It just takes a lot more work to maintain it.


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## DirtyBlackSocks (Jan 24, 2008)

Well I woke up this morning to two pairs of bolivians and a pair of blue ram spawning over various areas in the tank, but by the time I got to my camera the loaches had taken care of everything.

Now it looks like two pairs of the angelfish have chosen opposite sides of the top of the tank to lay eggs, or at least they're defending in pairs with a lone angel sort of patrolling the substrate looking for food and getting chased off anytime he enters either side.

So aside from the angels pairing off everything is working out how I'd like it to, I don't think the bosemani rainbows will let any free swimming fry from the angels last long to begin with and there isn't any real chasing going on in the tank.

My biggest worry was the rams taking up too much floor space, but they all seem to have found their niche, one of the pairs of bolivian rams that spawned actually let a blue ram hang out in their territory for some reason :-?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I have a mix of rams in my crazy tank...I've got 3 adult Bolivians (one male takes turns spawning with the 2 females) and 5 gold balloon rams (are you horrified?).

It's amazing how little territory they actually claim when given a 4 ft tank.

The gold rams aren't spawning, but they are reaching adult size and move in and out of the Bolivians territory constantly. One of the gold males has claimed a rock pile as his own, and chases fish twice his size away.

I've also got several more Bolivians in the tank at various stages of grow out, and I'm trying to hold off moving any of them out until I see how they work things out amongst themselves once they all become mature.

If I want fry from this tank, I know I'd better siphon them off as soon as they are free swimming. Meanwhile, the activity level of the tank makes it the most interesting tank I have to sit and watch.

I thought those angelfish looked close to adult size! Sounds like you set the mood with this tank! :lol:

Kim


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## DirtyBlackSocks (Jan 24, 2008)

I've got somth'n in my waters - almost every fish I put into the tanks I setup out here start to spawn almost immediately.

Those angelfish are around 5" TL, the male peruvians in particular have extremely high bodies with long streamers coming off their tails, you just can't see it in the camera - but they are definitly adults.

I had another mishap, a bosemani jumped out of the tank and dried out on the carpet - but that doesn't really bother me one bit. I leave the tank open top so the plants can grow out and start to flower - and it's one less fish that is nearly impossible to net later on down the line, hehe.

The blue ram are about half the size of the bolivians and seem to be the bully's of the tank - in my past experience it's always been the opposite, I even added these blue ram nearly 2 weeks after the bolivians had been in the tank digging pits and pecking at eachother all day. Now it seems the blue ram have taken up territory WITHIN their territory and the bolivians are totally tolerant of it - when I saw a pit with eggs this morning there was literally a blue ram sitting a 1/2" away from the pit with the bolivians paying him no attention...but then rams have never been known for good parenting skills.

All in all the only future problems I see with this tank are:
Galaxy pleco outgrowing the tank and uprooting plants due to it's size.
Clown loach growing too large and starting to eat holes into the leaves of the plants/uprooting plants and all around wreaking havoc in the tank.
Bosemani rainbow growing too large and scaring the bajeezus out of the angelfish.
Yo-yo loach turning into a maniacal murderer when it hits a certain size and chasing clown loach and ram around the tank until they're worn out.

Fortunately all three of those situations will take 2-3 years to arise and in the meantime I've got a really active tank in my living room to stare at (versus the tanks in the backroom that are specifically setup for species and breeding purposes).

I'll keep posting updates as they arise, it looks like a pair of the peruvian altums are cleaning off a peice of Anubias V. Ekona that's uptop in one of the corners of the tank to spawn on. The pearscales seem content to follow me around the room wherever I go and beg for food.

I need to quit giving them live blood worm


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## illy-d (Nov 6, 2005)

Is this an "I told you so thread"???

Seriously, the people you are apparently targetting with this thread already know that having live plants and site-breaks can make all the difference...

I'm a habitual overstocker myself - but I try not to bring too much attention to the fact because "newbies" may get the wrong idea...

The way I see it there are already tooo many people urging newbies to overstock their tanks (read 99% of employees at chain LFS for one)... It's up to the 'experienced' fishgeeks like ourselves (read people who spend their 'home time' watching their tanks and their 'work time' posting in fish forums) to disuade such behaviours... It's the classic case of "do as I say and not as I do"....


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## DirtyBlackSocks (Jan 24, 2008)

I'm of the opposite opinion Illy-D, I see a lot of people on here with experience giving great advice to new users, which is fine. But I see a lot of new users mimicking what they read rather than their true experiences and dealing out the advice.

I'm going to try and clean this thread up a bit after finals week to give a sort of documentation to hobbyists getting a little further into the hobby some insight as to how the common rules given on this site can be broken.

My main problem with this site, as well as most sites on the internet - is that a lot of inexperienced readers doll out advice that they've read, rather than giving out advice that comes from their real experiences, and as a result a lot of people may be getting a misconception that the best way to LEARN in this hobby is through experimenting and trying to break the rules.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

NOW I get what this thread is about... man, it looked bizarre.. a thread about the mother of all overstocked tanks on a tank that isn't overstocked and tank mates that are mostly compatible...

only took till page 2 before the punch line was explained...

DBS, although trolling with good intentions can be a good way to get attention, remember that it's still trolling. You might have had a much more positive response if you had posted your intentions up front.

Regurgitators have been around since the second day a forum was running and will be around for some time yet... I doubt you'll cure anyone of it, but hey! knock yourself out.


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## DirtyBlackSocks (Jan 24, 2008)

When I made this initial post I was pretty drunk, so I could have come off with a better introduction that's for sure, hehe.

Anyway, this isn't to curb regurgitator's or anything like that - this is just going to be a journal/write up to help beginners move into intermediate fish keeping who carry interests in South American cichlids.

I'll likely start an entirely new thread with a lengthy introduction and better explaination and just have this one deleted - sorry if I offended anyone, it wasn't my intention - but hindsight's 20/20


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

I look forward to reading more then! 

I have found that once rules were thoroughly understood and the small details known, then setups could be created that might seem to be bad choices but actually work out well. This type of setup doesn't just exist in the SA cichlid world of course... and sometimes "wrong choices" can become mainstream once the details have been worked out...

:thumb:


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

> My main problem with this site, as well as most sites on the internet - is that a lot of inexperienced readers doll out advice that they've read, rather than giving out advice that comes from their real experiences,


hmmmmm...sounds like me...



> and as a result a lot of people may be getting a misconception that the best way to LEARN in this hobby is through experimenting and trying to break the rules.


...but this doesn't...


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

That's the obscure point of this thread deadfishfloating... this tank doesn't break rules... bends a couple slightly but it APPEARS to break rules if you don't know all the details of each rule.

E.g. tank size is listed as a rule which doesn't always take sumps into consideration. A 75g tank with plenty of cover and a 55g sump can hold more fish than a 75g tank with a single cave. Yet how often do we see posts saying a 75g tank can hold 75 total inches of fish (or insert whatever rule you've heard on stocking). 
DBS could have gone about this a tad better, but let's see where it goes from here on in...


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## DirtyBlackSocks (Jan 24, 2008)

It's a true 75G tank, one of those acrylics with a built in sump in the back - but you're right, I'm going to re-write it when I get more time.


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## dogofwar (Apr 5, 2004)

"My main problem with this site, as well as most sites on the internet - is that a lot of inexperienced readers doll out advice that they've read, rather than giving out advice that comes from their real experiences..."

Couldn't agree more.

And I think that some people like to make themselves feel superior by putting other people down...or unecessarily complicating things...or expecting no less than the ideal of other peoples' set-ups / stocking levels.

(25+ years ago) when I started keeping fish, someone told me that the #1 most important thing that you can do to be successful is to do regular partial water changes. Sticking to that advice has served me well through the years.

Truth is that you can get away with breaking any number of fishkeeping rules by simply doing more water changes. Or putting up a piece of egg crate (a divider) between two fish.


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## DirtyBlackSocks (Jan 24, 2008)

I'll be a little more careful in how I introduce my revised thread on this - I didn't have any intentions of people getting argumentative over this in terms of superiority ect...it was meant to be a guideline for people interested in how you can overstock tanks without going through everything I went through in the past with experimentation.

I've killed A LOT of fish in my time because of not having this kind of information readily available, and I don't recall ever reading a thread anywhere that tries to sort of help newer hobbyists that have gotten the basics down progress into what I consider to be the truely fun part of the hobby.


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## KC (Apr 28, 2008)

I am not endorsing what I am about to post or trying to make a point of my own. I am just looking for answers.

My friend has a tank that in my opinion is pretty obscene.... It's close to 30 gal (30x12x23) with HOB filter rated for a 40 gal tank, or close to that. He has kept for over 6 months now 1 mature redtail shark, 2 mature rainbow sharks, 1 large angel, 8 panda cories, 2 albino cories, 5 GBR's, 2 4-5" clown loaches, 1 male beta, 10 or so neons, 4 oto's and.... I am forgetting a species or two, but you get the idea. He has kept them until a month ago with a few fake plants. Now has added 2 driftwood pieces and in my opinion it's moderately planted now.... 2 water changes in all this time and no clue on any of the water conditions, no test kit or plans on test kit in future.... Anyways nothing dies (a neon disappears now and then, probably angel food), everything has good color and looks healthy, and it just blows my mind. I make recommendations and pass on my opinion to my friend but he doesn't really care. There are piles of waste in the corners of the tank even.....

Like I said I am not trying to make a point here. He isn't experienced at keeping fish, he isn't that diligent about maintenance.... Yet nothing dies and it appears to be working.

I have to move soon for work but after that I am diving into fish keeping myself. I have done alot of research and am continuing to do research. But what he does defies everything I have read on this forum and every other resource material I have ever found.

I can't explain this at all....


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## dogofwar (Apr 5, 2004)

99% of fishkeepers in the world (AKA 99% of fish store customers), like KC's friend, don't properly stock / maintain their tanks. It's usually worse (2 oscars, a pacu, and an iridescent shark in a 29g).

A few people care to keep fish properly. The vast majority don't.

That's why I find it so ironic (frustrating) to watch people on sites like this one endlessly debate whether a single oscar, for example, needs a 55g or a 75g tank (when 99% of the oscars of the world are being kept in much, much less).

Work in a pet store and you'll be amazed.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

dogofwar said:


> That's why I find it so ironic (frustrating) to watch people on sites like this one endlessly debate whether a single oscar, for example, needs a 55g or a 75g tank (when 99% of the oscars of the world are being kept in much, much less).


I don't think the majority of the members here (myself included) would be posting on a fish forum if they weren't interested in learning something now and then. But I see what you are saying.

On the other hand, I do believe people should be warned when there is potential for disaster. :thumb:

Kim


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## dogofwar (Apr 5, 2004)

Agreed - even after keeping fish 25+ years, I learn a lot from these forums...especially from people who have actual experience.

It's the dogmatic, subjective arguments, often by people with little or no real experience, that get old.

There's ALWAYS a potential for disaster (i.e. dead fish), especially with cichlids, no matter how large the aquarium. There's no possible way to mitigate the risk to zero. Keeping cichlids is always a calculated risk. I can't count how many times I've done everything "right" and still lost fish...or how many times I've done everything "wrong" and had rare fish spawn :roll:

That said, there's a big difference between a little more marginal risk (overstocking and doing more frequent water changes) and imminent disaster (e.g. the 55g doctor's office tank that I used to maintain in which the doctor removed all of the fish I had stocked it with and added 6-7 8-10" red devils, JDs, green terrors, etc.)...and scaled back service from once per week to once per month.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

I have a very diferent opinion regarding stock levels of most of the posters so far. Illy-d made a good point by telling that most of the (chain) fish shops talk people into buying more fish and overstock the tanks and don't give proper advice. Unfortunately they are more interested in selling fish and hardware than the health of the fish.

Lets not forget that we like fish and hold them against their will. We are the once who are responsible for their conditions and environment. You simply can't understock a tank but overstock is quit easy.

There are some rules by hand like 1 cm fish for each liter tankvolume = high stock level, 0.5cm / liter = moderate and 0.25 / liter is low stock level. This is a guideline and can help people les knowledgeable or new in the hobby. Those guidelines are quit save to use and prevent an overstocked tank. The real stock level depends on a lot of things like filtration system, filter media volume, flow (GPH), footprint of the tank, length and height of the tank, frequency and percentage of water cleaning, plants, waste level, substrate and so on. Most people in the hobby talk abouth the previous rules by hand. Some fish do need more space becouse of their temperament or special needs. Most people don't talk abouth territories of the fish. I think that one is very important! Also,...some species do best in small groups or schools. Do you want to set a record to put a lot of fish in a small tank or do you want to provide your fish a nice home where they can thrive in and be happy?

I do think the rule of hand can be stretched but you need to be more experienced.

DBS,....you wrote your 


> My main problem with this site, as well as most sites on the internet - is that a lot of inexperienced readers doll out advice that they've read, rather than giving out advice that comes from their real experiences...


How do you know? Did you asked the people or is this just an assumption? On the other hand,.....how did you got your knowledge abouth fish keeping? Did you reed books, looked for info on the internet talked to more experienced people? My opinion is that gather info abouth experiences from other people is part of becoming knowledgeable. Sometimes you can bring up experiences of other people to provide a poster at least some info so he or she does have something to investigate further. The best and most reliable info you can provide to someone new are your own experiences so we agrea on that one.

I'm convinced that the info on this site is more reliable and accurate than the info that especially new people in the hobby get from the lfs. Most of the shops try to sell you as much as possible.

DBS,.....are you someone in the hobby or do you work in or own a fish shop or maybe the combination of both? Do you think the info on this site is not reliable or incorrect?



> I've killed A LOT of fish in my time because of not having this kind of information readily available


 Thats why I never suggest to overstock a tank and thats what the common rules by hand are for and a dose of common sense and experience.

For people in the hobby I suggest to provide the fish the space, tankmates and environment they need to thrive and be happy. After all we are the once responsible for their health. Lots of people underestimate the result of stress. Stress is a large factor of fish becoming ill. Small overcrowded tanks is a stress factor.

Breeders and fish shops do have a diferent opinion on stock levels and basically this has to do with keeping as much fish possible to lower expenses or wasted space. I can understand but this doesn't mean I approve this.

IMO a discussion what a certain specie of fish needs to thrive, is more important than numbers or stock level.


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## DirtyBlackSocks (Jan 24, 2008)

Dutch Dude,

I don't own a fish store - I'm a hobbyist - I learned just like everyone else, I bought a convict, a jack dempsey, a green terror and threw them all into a 10 gallon tank then wondered why they were covered in tiny white spots and died a few days later.

I've been on this site in particular for a long time - though I used to use the handle M0oN or somthing like that, and I pay attention to who is posting what.

A lot of times some one will come in here with little to no clue and learn what to do - but then they're suddenly experts on everything fish because they've invested a few months into reading up on various fish when the "fish bug" bites them.

So yeah, there's a lot of regurgitation. I've probably blown enough to put a down payment on a house throughout my time and most of what I've learned comes from first hand experience and experimenting.

Not ALL of the information on this site is false, a lot of it is great - but a good amount of it is regurgitation and a lot of people make posts without thinking it over - just like I initially did with this thread, and it was totally misrepresented from what I had intended it to be.

I don't know everything there is to know about fish by a long shot, I learn new things almost every day because I invest a lot of time conversing with other hobbyists I know have been in the hobby for years and have real experience, and experimenting myself outside of what everyone else says will and won't work.

What I'm trying to promote here is that some of the regurgitators need to realize that once you get past the point of figuring out what a cycle is and that a jack dempsey will murder it's tank mates while an angelfish can co-exist with a discus or blue ram - you need to expand your fish keeping habbits, and start to break the rules you've been told.

My speciality is in South Americans and I'd say I have intermediate experience with the commonly available species in Central Americans.

I chose South American's because they're - for the most part - peaceful cichlids that are plant friendly and can be overstocked into a community tank.

Which brings us back to the original intention for this post - to help sort of bring those who understand the basics of fish keeping into a segway on the intricacy's of how decorating a tank properly, using live plants and knowing your species compatibility can lead to an impressive looking tank with minimal deaths.

Experimentation is intended for those of us who don't mind blowing the money on fish that might die - I probably waste at least a thousand dollars a year on experiments that don't end up working, and I realize a lot of the newer people on here are younger and don't have the money for that. But I still feel like this site stays entirely too conservative in it's advice and is promoting these regurgitators who get everyone else to understock their tanks when it's simply not necessary.

Hobbyists need to be encouraged to experiment with what they want to do, not discouraged from a lot of what they are doing - if some of your opinions about what you see on this site are different then mine that's fine. I'm not trying to start a fight or bad mouth a bunch of people with ill intentions - I'm just trying to do somthing different that portrays my line of thinking.


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## remarkosmoc (Oct 19, 2005)

Jerseyfish said:


> DirtyBlackSocks said:
> 
> 
> > If I were to pop on here and make this post, minus the discus - as a new member - I would get torn in half by a lot of people on here.
> ...


I agree too. The quick knee-jerk response for a lot of posts is "first of all you are overstocked". About half of my tanks are overstocked (and overfiltered). So I don't post stocking levels.



Number6 said:


> DBS, although trolling with good intentions can be a good way to get attention, remember that it's still trolling. You might have had a much more positive response if you had posted your intentions up front.


I agree there too. At least DBS started his own thread to start the topic. I wouldn't lump him in with the nasty trolls.

What does everyone think of hybrids?
Just kidding don't answer that :lol: :lol:


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

> I don't own a fish store - I'm a hobbyist - I learned just like everyone else, I bought a convict, a jack dempsey, a green terror and threw them all into a 10 gallon tank then wondered why they were covered in tiny white spots and died a few days later.


 Oooops,....thats a hard way to learn! So you should have been saved with the conventional stock levels :wink: Good to hear your someone out of the hobby 



> and most of what I've learned comes from first hand experience and experimenting.


 Thats the hard way to learn just like the tank you told abouth. Some people need that or just want to do it their way. It makes you more knowledgeable. The only real problem I have with this type of learning is some of your fish suffered and died. Was it becouse you did not do proper investigation or talked to more experienced people? I can feed my cat chinese food for a month and wonder why he died but I can also ask some people with cats what they feed and check the cats, how they look and behave and estimate their health and choose a feed that seem to work for the cats. Just an example DBS. So you got some bad experiences,...learned from it but,....don't you have the urge to warn people of disasters and killing fish in stead of providing them a healthy environment? I do so thats why I mostly give advises on the save side and if it is on the edge (of the common stock levels) I warn the people for that and give some extra advice for precaution (spare tank at hand, extra driftwood / plants, more cleanings and so on).



> I don't know everything there is to know about fish by a long shot


 I am convinced no one does and what seem to work for one person can be a disaster for an other. I'm also convinced there are several methods that give the same result. For example i discussed plant growth with aquatic garners. They jump me when I tell them that 3 Watt/Gallon is extremely high lighting level and that most plants grow great with 1 Watt/ Gallon. My Bolivian tank does have 0.6 Watt/gallon and plants grow nice green fast and larger as normal. It is just a diferent methods and I tried to explain this. Some became curios while others told me that i was not knowledgeable and Amani....bla bla bla. This seem to have some things in common with your post doesn't it? :wink: But,.....it starts to become a nice discussion DBS!



> Experimentation is intended for those of us who don't mind blowing the money on fish that might die


 That "might die becouse of experimentation" is the thing that bothers me. Experiments and having a spare tank to save fish when things start to go wrong is a better way imo.

So DBS,...why overstock tanks and don't go for the save way and buy a larger or more tanks? What is wrong with a save stock level? I feel like giving advice to keep the fish in good shape and still have an interesting tank to watch. Why discourage people in the hobby to overstock their tanks with the risk of killing fish? Your complaining abouth the advice most people give on this board but those people move within mostly save borders or with a small calculated risk.


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## illy-d (Nov 6, 2005)

DBS I think I understand what your trying to accomplish with this thread - but I must say that it is 1000 times better for people to regurgitate good information than bad...

I've never kept an Oscar for example - but from what I have read in chain stores apparently they only need 20+ gallons to survive... What I've learned from this forum is that 55g and up is the minimum... Now which bit of regurgitated information is better for the fish and better for the inexperienced fishkeeper that wants to get a wetpet that will last more than a couple of months? So even though I have no personal experience with Oscars I have no problem repeating what I've learned here - and I don't think that's a bad thing...

A lot of people that keep fish don't want to spend thousands of dollars through trial & error - which is what makes these sites so invaluable...


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## DirtyBlackSocks (Jan 24, 2008)

See, the problem with debating like this is that no rules have been set into place and people are just pulling instances out to help their side of the discussion.

It's not going to end, so I'm just going to end it and stop trying to defend my intentions.

My next thread will be a lot more thought out - and hopefully spark more constructive debates than what we're discussing now - which is coming off to me as a pointless circle.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

I have to admit that after many years in the hobbyâ€¦ I still side with lightly stocking large tanksâ€¦ Iâ€™m one of those junkies with a lot of tanks and this method has been, for me, by far the best method. It allows my tank maintenance to be very relaxed and still keep my numbers where they should be. It also greatly reduces my fishie emergencies.

These two facts (easier maintenance & fewer emergencies) means I work on my fish when I decide to work on my fishâ€¦ not when I have to or they will dieâ€¦

For these same reasons I continue to promote such conservative stocking suggestions.

Now on the other handâ€¦ I completely understand that many people, just like DirtyBlackSocks, may be willing to risk some of the ease to gain some excitement. Thereâ€™s absolutely nothing wrong with this and I do it myself. In my opinion this is where the fish keepers stop and the hobbyists begin (there is no significance between the two)â€¦

These little experiments are great! But I also see a lot of people spend 5 months housing Cichlids and then feeling uber confident in fish keeping to start trying new abnormal combinations when theyâ€™ve not even owned an adult fish yetâ€¦ I think the fact we are forced to wait a couple years to see our fish mature is what makes the hobby so addictive.

In my experience/opinion the key to trying new things is simpleâ€¦ have a plan B. (Note: Returning the problem fish to the LFS is not a Plan B unless the LFS has agreed to the return well in advance). Usually the best plan B is an alternative tank to move troubled fish intoâ€¦ the problem here is this means we have to have under stocked tanks somewhere that can easily handle another fishâ€¦ which is yet another reason for me to promote my conservative stocking levelsâ€¦

Experiment at your own riskâ€¦ itâ€™s a lot of fun!


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## jcushing (Apr 6, 2008)

illy-d said:


> I've never kept an Oscar for example - but from what I have read in chain stores apparently they only need 20+ gallons to survive... What I've learned from this forum is that 55g and up is the minimum...


being new to the forum ill only make 2 comments, first ,that 99% comment at the top of tha page was right on, most people wont keep fish alive for the 2+ years it takes them to get to maturity. So when a LFS sells em an oscar chances are it wont get anywere near its full size and as a juvy it will act different than a sexually mature animal. LFS will quote stocking levels you can get away with that maximize the activity of the tank (it wont look empty) and will work for as long as the ignorant will be able to keep a fish alive.

on this forum people quote stocking levels by ADULT size of fish and only recomend smaller tanks for grow outs. this is a much more responsible method and offering advice based on a conservative approach is ALSO more responsible.

my second comment will be on the "regurgitation" while *** only been on this forum for a couple months *** been on car forums for almost 10 years. the "regurgitation" is just part of human nature, and it happens everywhere. following rules and only doing things other people told you to do will never get you anything impressive. on order to achieve something special or learn something new you have to break rules and experiment. those "rules" are simplifications meant to help explain complicated subjects to people with little background in the subject. often those "rules" arent even totaly true, an example would be the "peacefull community" fish that will just go psycho and start killing tankmates. these "rules" are more like 9 out of 10 generalazations that work for 90% of people.


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## john9982 (Mar 10, 2006)

how much time you guys think i have before i need to make changes to my 55 gal stocklist is 2 3"green severums, 2 3" jack d's , 1 3" tiger oscar , and 10 large cory cats juli's i believe. basically i just threw it together as a grow out tank then saw 2 beautiful severums i coukdn't pass on and i needed to add some movement to the tank so right or wrong that is where i'm at . sorry not trying to hijack the thread but after reading the first page of this thread my question seemed to fit here good.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

G'day *john9982*,

Probably best if you start your own thread whith such a question.


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## DirtyBlackSocks (Jan 24, 2008)

I'd say you've got beteween 4-8 months before you start to run into deaths related to territorial aggression with those fish. Assuming you are feeding the fish properly and keeping clean waters.


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## john9982 (Mar 10, 2006)

yea they are fed good and i do water changes every sunday


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Or if the OP wants to comment in his own thread, who am I to say otherwise. :wink:


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## john9982 (Mar 10, 2006)

it's cool dff


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## lonestar (May 16, 2008)

DirtyBlackSocks said:


> Contents:
> 4 clown loach
> 1 yo yo loach
> 2 siamensis
> ...


Makes me feel better about about what I would like to do with my water conditions.

2 GBR
2 Bolivians
+ few tetras
in a 20G

After testing a 7.8 pH, I was discouraged, especially for GBR's



DirtyBlackSocks said:


> What I'm trying to promote here is that some of the regurgitators need to realize that once you get past the point of figuring out what a cycle is and that a jack dempsey will murder it's tank mates while an angelfish can co-exist with a discus or blue ram - you need to expand your fish keeping habits, and start to break the rules you've been told...
> 
> ....Hobbyists need to be encouraged to experiment with what they want to do


I hear ya... I was highly cautioned against my above plans, or the mixing of apistos, or apistos with rams and frowned upon the idea of 'over filtration' to help compensate for overstocking and/or decrease need for frequent water changes. I read a post ( I think apistomaster) that stated if he followed the 'rules' he would have never experienced such enjoyment.



Dutch Dude said:


> > I'm a hobbyist - I learned just like everyone else, I bought a convict, a jack dempsey, a green terror and threw them all into a 10 gallon tank then wondered why they were covered in tiny white spots and died a few days later.
> 
> 
> Oooops,....thats a hard way to learn! So you should have been saved with the conventional stock levels :wink: Good to hear your someone out of the hobby


Hard? Maybe? But sometimes that is the best way to learn. A beginner has no clue (or desire) about temperaments, territories, PH and water quality; he just knows he sees a fish that looks cool and the LFS says it should work. After several fish deaths, either you get tired of spending money and either you give up (yard sale) or you desire to become more knowledgeable.


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## DirtyBlackSocks (Jan 24, 2008)

DeadFish - don't take any offense in this thread - the information you provide on this board is some of the most in depth and professional I've seen, when people come here looking for information and I don't feel like typing it out I usually expect you or a couple of other locals here to fill it in.

I've never seen you give bad advice, and wouldn't have known that you're giving out advice based on book smarts had you not mentioned it.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Hey *DirtyBlackSocks*,

Not a problem mate. I have a little experience, about this much [ ]. 

When I was a kid we kept Oscars, Blue Acaras & Red Forest Jewewls. That was the 70's & 80's.
I've only gotten back into the hobby in the last 18 months. However I did about 6 months research before buying my first tank and fish this time round.

I used to be a teacher, so remembering information and research is second nature for me, and so is providing in depth information. It's sorta in my nature to be helpfull, whether I've first hand experience or not.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Yea your also the guy who does MTS syndrome backwards...  you got the big tank then the smaller ones... you guys always end up with the crazy set ups.......


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## SchizotypalVamp (Jun 12, 2008)

Hey, I know this is my first post here, but I really had to comment. First of all, I agree with the others. It doesn't sound as if your fish lack in swimming space or filtration. However, while they do grow very slowly, clown loaches easily attain a length of 11'', sometimes up to 16''. Also, loaches in general much prefer a school.


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