# chronic fish loss - suggestions?



## 2manycritters (Feb 28, 2005)

Ok, long story that I'll try to make short...
Sold my old 55 gal tank a couple years ago when we moved and got a new bigger one (yea!). So I've got a 110 gal that's been established for a little over a year now. Originally purchased 95% of the fish from an online retailer here. Out of 40 juveniles, I lost about 15 the first few months, most due to the "skinny disease" - finally got that cured, and all things were fine. As my juveniles matured, they of course started fighting, so I lost a couple more here and there the last couple months. Decided the tank was looking empty, and to help offset the aggression, I added 20 more juveniles (more mbuna/haps) around a month ago. Since I suspected some sick fish when they arrived - more of the "skinny disease - i treated the tank from the start with Met and Melafix, just to be safe. Lost a couple, as expected, right off the start - ones that didn't look 100% healthy to begin with. But now, a month later, I'm encountering something else that's wiping out 1-2 fish every couple days. The sick fish act drunk, like they don't remember how to swim, running into the glass, plants, rocks, other fish - they're gasping for air - laying on the bottom, sometimes on their side, or hovering near the top behind the filters. The really weird thing is that they're going totally stiff when they die. Another strange thing is my fish usually turn cannibalistic when one dies - there's rarely much left by the time I get home from work... but whatever is killing these fish now, the other fish won't go near the dead ones. I find them completely intact, just lacking a little bit of color. No signs of ich - I thought I noticed the "salt" flecks on one cicilid about a week ago, but it was just a loose scale on one cichlid - who is at the moment still swimming happily around the tank. Whatever is killing them moves fast - i'll notice one not moving much or feeding, and the next day it's dead. I've ruled out aggression - a couple of the ones I've lost recently were some of the nice, bigger guys i've had for over a year, and a couple were newbies. Tank is spotless - I do weekly water changes, but with the addition of the new fish I've been doing them 2-3 times per week, hoping to get whatever this is out of their system and to combat any potential mini-cycling (didn't have a problem w/ that at all). Nitrites and ammonia are 0, chlorine is 0, and the frequent water changes and overfiltering I have keeps the nitrates <20ppm..... I'm not a newbie, I already know about ammonia, cycling, etc and those definitely aren't the issue...
So, if anybody has any suggestions, please let me know.... :-? There seems to be no rhyme or reason to the die-off, and without having a clue what's killing them I can't treat the tank... quarantine isn't an option, and even if it was it wouldn't help - i've started euthanizing the sick ones as soon i notice them but whatever it is, it's still spreading. 
Thanks!


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

I would start doing some daily water changes quick. Hopefully someone can i.d. the illness and offer a remedy.


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## 2manycritters (Feb 28, 2005)

looks like the next victim will be my big, beautiful afra male that's ruled the tank for the last year and a half. Yesterday morning, he was fine, eating well and running anybody and anything off from his side of the tank as usual... last night got home from an xmas eve dinner, and he was bumping into things on the bottom of the tank, gasping.... this morning he's hovering behind the filter bar at the top, losing color. No outward signs of anything wrong - no red gills, no weird white specs, no bloat, no skinniness.... I can't bring myself to euthanize my favorite - hoping for some sort of miracle cure. There's a hap that's not looking too frisky this morning either. Rest of the tank seems fine. but that's the way this mystery illness has been this last week....

Did another water change last night, removed all my carbon and started dosing the tank again with Met and Melafix and a very generous helping of salt - did it again this morning. At this point it's just a guessing game, trying to save the rest of the tank from whatever this latest plague is...


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Did the sick fish show any change in symptoms directly after the water change?

Aproximately how many fish do you have left in the tank? Are the healthy fish all eating and swimming normally? Please post back and list the species and number of all fish in the tank.

There's not a lot of things that will kill a healthy fish within 24 hours. 
Aggression is one of them. 
Columnaris is an other one. Usually you will notice some kind of of white patchy-scratchy growth somewhere on the fish but I have read that it can be an internal infection. 
Water quality problems can also kill fish fast but usually you'll see all fish in the tank affected to some degree rather than what you describe where they're getting picked off one at a time.

My guess is that its aggression. The largest most aggressive fish in the tank can easily become the victim of aggression. In a cichlid tank the sub-dominant fish are always looking to improve their standing and as fish mature the dynamics of the tank will change.

But that's only a guess--please post back with additional information. I'm going to be near the computer off and on all day today and I'll try to get right back to you. I don't want you to lose the afra male. 
Robin


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## 2manycritters (Feb 28, 2005)

> Did the sick fish show any change in symptoms directly after the water change?


Condition worstened. I removed the afra and the sick hap last night, they were both laying on their sides still breathing, but otherwise not well. When I went to remove the afra he kept running into the rocks and plants in the tank swimming sideways and upside down at one point.  i'm going to miss the big guy, he was my favorite. Neither one showed any outward signs of illness - just that same weird difficulty swimming. Also again, the other fish in the tank were totally avoiding the ill ones - not picking on them like they tend to do when there are weak/sick fish in the tank.

# of fish:
With the ones I added from the retailer a month ago that brought it up to around 45 or so - which sounds like a lot but remember these are all juveniles or young adults - nobody's over 2.5 - 3 inches, most are way smaller than that -- and it's a big 110 tank w/ lots of filtration, ugj, etc. Since then I've lost around 15 I think, so it's back down to around 30. It's not just the new small fish I'm losing either, I've lost the three biggest fish in the tank in this last week. The smaller guys actually seem to be doing better than the big ones.

So far I haven't lost any tetras (who could survive a nuclear holocost I think, i cycled the tank w/ them over a year ago and they're still kicking), the bristlenose cat or the twig cat - all are doing fine. Which from everything I've read, the twig catfish is the canary of the tank - they do NOT do well when there's poor water quality -- and he's doing just fine. I live out in the stix - we're on rural water so it is possible they've done something to our water supply - but like I said, I would think it would affect the whole tank, not just a couple of the big healthy ones.

I still have serious doubts about agression being the issue - some of the last ones I've lost WERE the agressors. My big beautiful afra and my nice big brevis each ruled their half of the tank, and they both died this past week - brevis went last saturday, the afra went last night. They were the two biggest and bossiest fish in the tank by far.

As of this morning, nobody else was sick - everyone seems to be swimming along and eating fine... So, I'm desperatly hoping this thing has run its course. If anything changes when I get home from work, I'll post again...


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Sorry you lost the afra. . .

What other _species_ of fish is in there now? 
And the afra--he was definitely eating normally 24 hours before he died? Just want to be sure. Sometimes when you have a lot of fish it's hard to accurately document their symptoms, especially if you're busy--like most of us--and don't get to spend a lot of time just looking at the tank. When trying to determine what's wrong with a fish knowing all the symptoms and especially the order that the symptoms came on is very helpful.

What about feeding? Anyone else feeding the fish besides you?

Robin


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## 2manycritters (Feb 28, 2005)

Happy to report nobody else has died... I've had a taiwan reef hap that's been hanging out near the bottom for the last couple of days but i'm hoping he's on the rebound - he was swimming around the tank a bit today. Since the first post I've been dosing the tank w/ met every two days (per instructions on the bottle), melafix every day, and a lot more salt than I usually use when i change the tank water. Hopefully one or a combination of those three is doing the trick.



> And the afra--he was definitely eating normally 24 hours before he died


Yes - before he started hiding (aprox 24-26 hours before he died) he was eating just fine. Same with the others.



> What about feeding? Anyone else feeding the fish besides you?


Just me. My hubby's scared to mess w/ the tank for fear he'll kill them accidentally. 

It's a pretty mixed tank - I wanted a variety so just purchased mixed afras and haps from the online retailer - some haven't colored up yet so I'm not positive what they are. (They're *not *crossbreeds, just a variety bag of mbunas and haps). 
Here's a list of current fish, give or take a couple... It seems like i'm forgetting a few.... I'm at work so doing this from memory... I tried to label which ones I added w/ the last order. All the haps are new and only about 1.5-2 inches long. 
1 yellow lab 
3 red zebras 
3 red zebras (ob) 
1 auratus (albino) (new)
1 auratus (new)
1 m. johanni 
2 m. brevis 
2 m. parallelus (1 new)
1 labidochromus carellus (white) (new)
1 bristlenose catfish 
1 twig catfish 
2 ps. elongatus (1 new) 
1 dimidichromis compressips (new)
1 nimbochromis venustus (new)
1 nimbochromis polystigma (new)
1 taiwan reef (new)
1 cyrtocara moori (new)
2 unidentified haps (juveniles) 
5 unidentified mbuna (some new, original tankmates)
5 tetras

Recent losses: (the "originals" were all otherwise perfectly healthy until they died - some of the new juveniles were a little skinny, so there may have been something else going on there, or maybe not... hard to say) 
2 afras (original tank mates) 
1 red zebra (juvenile) 
1 ob zebra (original tank mate)
1 juvenile hap 
1 taiwan reef hap (juvenile) 
1 m. brevis (original tank mate)
2 unknown mbunas (had stripes, but that may have still been juvy or female coloring) 
1 labidichromis (original tank mate)

So, as of today everybody's hanging in there... I'll post again if things change...


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

From the stock list alone, I'd bet on aggression. :roll:

If you want that many species, then I would suggest removing all females and all males that you have more than one of a species of, and turning this into an all male tank.

Otherwise, I believe you will continue to have problems. Stress can destroy a tank quickly, whether it stems directly from aggression, or occurs as the result of improper stocking.


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## 2manycritters (Feb 28, 2005)

Hmm. Maybe. I had some aggression in a previous tank (no more demasoni EVER - lesson learned there) but nothing like this. I've had fish chewed up before but swimming upside down and sideways and running into everything? Still doesn't sound like aggression to me. Sounds more like a disease that's affecting their swim bladder or whatever helps them keep their balance. Especially since my two biggest bullies died several days apart - wouldn't it be the smaller guys winding up dead? They were twice the size of anybody else in the tank...
The reason for ordering all the new fish and overstocking the tank again was to inhibit/ spread out any potential aggression - seems like I should be losing fewer fish now, not more than what I ordered in the first place. There aren't many females in the tank to fight over - just the new auratus and a couple of the zebras. It's 95% an all male tank. Unless some of the females have been doing great impersonations for the last year... Which i know does happen sometimes.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Well, I hate to break this to you, but having 5% females in a 95% male tank will lead to nothing BUT aggression problems. :-?

You can't successfully house these fish like this. You either need to go all male (which means removing ALL females) or go with breeding groups of each species (which would require you getting rid of many species).

These fish are harem breeders, meaning each male requires multiple females. The rules don't change just because you don't want to stock them that way. :wink:


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

After looking at your stocking list I agree with Kim that aggression is _contributing to the problem at the very least _if it is not in fact the problem all by itself.

These fish are going to do what they are pre-programed to do--period. It's instinct--yes but it's instinct that's been 'tweaked' by the fish being placed in an un-natural enviroment. In the wild most of the fish you have would not choose to be anywhere near each other. But in the confines of a tank, even a nice large tank such as you have, they are forced to interact and compete for territory, spawning rights and food and these very natural urges lead to battles that result in injury and death.

It's great that you know the names of most of your fish. My advice to you is to look up each one of the fish you have, both in the Profiles section on this site and also by doing a search here in the discussion section to hear the experiences of other aquarists. Start with the Auratus and the venustus. . . 

Robin


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## wheatbackdigger (May 11, 2008)

What's the footprint of a 110 gallon tank? If memory serves me correct, this is a 4 foot tank extra tall. Thats your first problem. A few of those haps are going to get HUGE. Second, what kind of diet do you feed these fish? You have a mixture of carnivores, herbivores and omnivores. This is your second problem, but a good quality pellet could suffice. You have alot of harem breeding fish in this mix. This is your third problem. Most of these fish need a good male to female ratio.

This is only my opinion, you have one crazy mix of fish in too small of a tank, with different dietary needs, fighting for females that there is a lack of. Honestly, this tank is a recipe for disaster that took a year to cook.

My suggestion. I would rid all haps and probably all peacocks. Pick 5 or 6 mbuna species with a 1:3 ratio of males to females. Sit back, relax and enjoy the tank for the next 10 years.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Okay you've gotten the aggression warning from us and advice about what to do. 
There may be something else going on in addition to aggression. You mentioned one of the main symptoms being that the fish couldn't swim prior to death and thought it could be a problem with their swim bladder. 
Maybe--but many illnesses and conditions will leave a fish in that condition. They just plain become too weak to swim. (And not to beat the aggression drum again but fish who have been rammed/harrassed by another fish will have difficulty swimming due to internal injury).

One problem with having so many fish is that it's hard to document the symptoms when you have fish sick/dying. As I mentioned above, there aren't too many ailments/conditions that kill a healthy fish in less than 24 hours. Make sure you're not overfeeding. One small feeding a day is usually plenty. Take a few minutes during feeding time to really watch the fish to make sure everyone is eating. Are any fish staying mostly at the top? Bottom? Hiding? Are any fish gasping? 
Doing daily partial water changes with a good quality declorinator is a good idea whenever you've got 'something' going on in the tank. Siphon the gravel, too.
Let us know how it goes

Robin


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## 2manycritters (Feb 28, 2005)

Ok, so I think we can now rule out aggression. As suggested got rid of the remaining identifiable females after another fish died. Probably should have hung onto them as they seemed to be some of the healthier ones.

Several more have died - a couple more juvenile haps, the auratus, a b&w auratus, a zebra, a red zebra, 2 juvy mbunas, and an ob zebra.

Currently hiding/gasping/and/or running into things.:
hongi
white lab
both remaining brevis
2 red zebras
1 ob zebra
polystygma
unidentified juvy hap
johanni
bumblebee
unidentified juvy mbuna

Almost all remaining fish with the exception of the catfish and tetras are flashing. Tetras are acting kind of "twitchy". The two cats may be affected but I can't tell since they don't really swim. These guys are ok so far, other than flashing:
5 tetras (again, will probably survive a nuclear attack)
1 bristlenose cat
1 twig cat
2 red zebras
1 ob zebra
1 b/w auratus
1 venustus
1 dimi. comprecips
1 yellow lab
1 white lab
2 ps soclofi (had these id'd incorrectly as elongatus earlier)
1 albino auratus
1 cobalt zebra

Still doing water changes/gravel vac every 2-3 days, treating w/ salt. Stopped the Met dosage last week since it wasn't doing any good - if it didn't kill off whatever this is after a month of treating the tank, it's not going to. Feeding once a day as usual - NLS. And no, I don't overfeed, never lost a fish to bloat and don't plan to.

I'm a little suspicious that something may be wrong with our water. My fish never used to flash after a water change - ever. A couple of months ago they started mild flashing immediately after a water change but then would stop shortly after. In the last week they've started flashing all the time, especially after a water change. Water tests don't show anything unusual - ammonia, nitrites, chlorine (and i use Prime anyway) are all zero. With the super frequent water changes nitrites are way low, never get above 20ppm.

All of the above are 1-2 inch fish - which is NOT, according to the setup guidelines, anywhere near overstocked for a 110 gallon tank (oh, earlier somebody asked about footprint - it's a bowfront, so it's 4.5 feet long and between 18-22 in. wide - it's not a tall tank as somebody suggested). Full of limestone cubbyholes and plants for fish to hide in. if anything, my tank is now understocked, which i was overstocking it to AVOID aggression, hence the addition of the new fish which started this whole disaster. _Which, by the way, if overstocking doesn't actually work to curb aggression you might stop suggesting it in the various discussions and the library. Just a thought... _ Also please keep in mind the "killer" haps are the smallest thing in the tank w/ none over 1.5 inches long - i fully expect them to be aggressive in a year or two but certainly not now - if anything they're in danger of being eaten by the biggest zebra in the tank. if they survive this and get nice and big, they'll be getting their own setup - i wasn't planning on keeping them in w/ the mbuna when/if they begin to be a problem.

If it's our crappy rural water there isn't anything i can do about it but sell my fish tank and hope we don't all die of lead poisoning... But if it's not, does anybody have any other good ideas as to what's killing them off? And please don't tell me it's aggression again, i think we're past that now.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

2manycritters said:


> _Which, by the way, if overstocking doesn't actually work to curb aggression you might stop suggesting it in the various discussions and the library. Just a thought... _


I'm going to address this first, surprise, surprise... :wink:

*Overstocking DOES curb aggression. But you've still got to choose the right combination of fish to overstock with. *

You had way too many species in the tank IF you weren't going for an all male tank. Your stock list points to disaster in so many different ways, which I will briefly try to explain.

If you have an all male tank, you have ONE of each species. You don't want two male auratus, two male red zebras, etc. (About the only species you can pull off having more than one male are Yellow labs or acei, the more docile mbuna.)

Another contributing factor to the stocking errors is that you had one of this species, 3 of that species, and 2 of this species. You didn't have decent breeding groups of any species, except maybe the "unidentified" ones, and without an identity, who knows???

And, you've mixed highly aggressive mbuna with more docile haps.

Plus, it looks like you've introduced ALOT of "new" fish recently...Did you quarantine them first? If so, for how long? (New additions are going to up the aggression level and the territorial disputes, not to mention raise the possibility of introducing disease to an already stressed tank...)

I know that we keep coming back to aggression (and I know that you don't want to), but I hope I've explained it well enough so that maybe you'll understand a bit better. We don't always witness aggression. My two tanks are in my main living area, and I watch them quite a bit, but I can still come home to a fish that is stressed and trying to disappear at the top of the water line.

The point I'm trying to make is that stress is a HUGE factor in a sick tank, and with your stocklist (and even the continuing deaths) it's hard to get past it to determine what else might be going on.

And, the tank being a bow front isn't going to help any as these fish mature. You're losing alot of floor space/territory, and that's what's important to these fish. You can't go by the gallonage when stocking cichlids. It's all about territories, and IMO, the length of the tank is a bit more important than the depth from front to back. Knowing the dimensions, you have some fish who will outgrow this tank long term.

Now, on to the health issues (with hopes that you understand that they may be stress induced :thumb: )...

You could have water problems, but the issue is somewhat clouded by the varying symptoms and the high potential for stress in the tank.

To be on the safe side, I would check with the water company and see if anything has changed since your problems started, just to rule that out.

Most fish DO flash after water changes, just not excessively. By "excessive", I would watch to make sure the same fish isn't flashing more than 2 or 3 times an hour.

Are you seeing any salt like granules on the fish?

Are they flashing so much that they are doing damage to their scales?

Any fin deterioration? White cottony growths?

What type test kits are you using? (Strips, or liquid reagent?) How long have they been open?

Any redness in the gill area?

The only other thing I can think of is to try shining a flashlight from above or below a fish in the dark tonight...See if you can see any greenish or yellow film on their bodies. (I'm wondering if it could be velvet...)


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

With some trepidation, I'm going to wade in here . . .

I don't have a dog in this race, but let's just suppose, for a minute, that it IS aggression causing the problems . . . so what should the OP do to test this theory? I don't see anywhere in the posts that 2manycritters has surplus hospital/QT tanks, so even if she were to remove those suspected of being the culprits, she can't take them back to the LFS as they might be diseased. So it seems to me that she must:

buy a few (perhaps used) extra tanks with appropriate cheap filters seeded with media from the main tank
remove certain key fish
and watch to see what happens in the main tank

But that begs the question -- what fish do the experts recommend be removed from the main tank?


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

> But that begs the question -- what fish do the experts recommend be removed from the main tank?


Not necessarily an issue of removing any fish but rather putting together a group of fish that have the greatest liklihood of success in the tank size and water conditions available. That's why I suggested researching each and every species the OP has and taking it from there. If it were me I would start with the species I like the best and see if I can build a tank around those species. 
When trying to address aggression problems there is no one answer that works in all situations. You have to try different things. It can take weeks, even months of moving various fish in and out of a tank before you get the right combination. 
You want to start with species and male/female ratios that are SUPPOSE to work and then when/if they don't, (there's always the individual fish that's just NOT going cooperate), you have to make changes. As fish mature the heirarchy/dynamics of the tank will also change so the tank that's getting along fine today may not six months down the road. Adding/removing fish will likewise change the tank dynamics and may force you to make more stocking changes to find a peaceful balance. It's a hassle but it's a part of keeping cichlids that you can't avoid.

Okay so getting off the aggression topic for a moment: I would do as Kim suggested and shine a flash light on your fish from different angles and examine their skin. You're looking for a fine talc-like coating on them. Or any other sort of coating.



> I'm a little suspicious that something may be wrong with our water.


 Take a sample and have it tested. If there's something in it that's hurting your fish then you are right in being concerned that it could also be hurting you.

***Could you, in as much detail as possible, describe the symtoms the fish showed prior to dieing? And try to stick with the fish who had similar symptoms. 
Start with the first symptom you noticed and give a time-line, (day one, stopped eating, day two, etc). I know you've given this information before but in a long post like this important information can get swamped.

Really want to help you stop losing fish. . .

Robin


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

hollyfish2000 said:


> But that begs the question -- what fish do the experts recommend be removed from the main tank?


I would determine whether I wanted to keep an all male tank or breeding groups first.

If the decision is to go with an all male set up, I would remove every possible female, and every "extra" male of a species, shooting for one fish of each species, and no two species that look alike.

If breeding is desired, alot of fish have to go. In this length tank, I wouldn't try to breed more than 5 species, max. I would choose those 5 species carefully to diminish the potential for crossbreeding and excessive aggression due to similarities in species, and then get rid of everything else. I would then build on the breeding groups of those 5 species.

As for what the OP can do with the fish...Well, that's the million dollar question...

This is why this hobby can be so frustrating for newcomers. They see alot of fish they like, they've either read through the "basics" (or not read anything at all), and they throw them in a tank. As they start to mature, the tank blows up. Usually the first thing that someone notices going wrong is health related, so returning them to the LFS isn't always an option. You just have to try to get them well long enough to sell them, give them away, or trade them in - whatever it takes to make the changes you need to make. And, we will all be glad to try to help the OP do this! _We just want to make sure they understand that if things aren't changed in the stocking, they will be dealing with health issues in the tank constantly, in all probability._

We really _are_ just trying to help, but at the end of the day, the potential for this particular stock list working out in this size tank is very slim, and stress seems to be the root for many health issues in a cichlid tank.

I hate to see anyone give up on such a rewarding and enjoyable hobby out of sheer frustration, especially when it can be avoided if you do things right.

I didn't always hear things I wanted to hear when I started keeping cichlids and joined this forum, but all the advice and warnings I was given came to light very quickly. I had kept fish for 30 years before getting into cichlids, but it really is a whole different world when you're dealing with highly aggressive fish. :thumb:


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## 2manycritters (Feb 28, 2005)

too little, too late.
*tank is dead. *catfish and tetras included. no survivors.

Can i make a suggestion? The next time someone is very adamantly telling you that her 1-2 inch long fish that pose no threat to anything bigger than a spirulina flake and are being wiped out by something other than aggression, please give them the benefit of a doubt. I appreciate your concern for my fishes' future well-being, but i needed help with the present situation.

thanks anyway.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I'm very sorry that you lost the entire tank.

As Robin said earlier, the only other thing that I am aware of (other than aggression) that will take down an entire tank that quickly is Columnaris.

Reading back through the entire thread (several times, by the way) I do not see anything you listed before the flashing that would indicate Columnaris. It can be internal, but you still usually have some external signs. You didn't. Everything up until the flashing sounded like internal injuries...

You posted that on Tuesday evening. I responded with questions on Wednesday morning, and the suggestion to check for velvet. Up until I logged on Wednesday morning and saw your last post, I had no reason to ask those questions.

I'm not big on telling people to medicate a tank without having symptoms to go on.

And, in all reality, it could still be your water. Did you get it checked yesterday morning as Robin suggested?

I know how it feels to lose an entire tank. It happened to me a few years ago when I misdiagnosed Columnaris in my own tank - I watch my tanks quite a bit, and in the beginning I thought it was ich and increased the temperature, causing the Columnaris to spread out of control quite quickly, so that by the time I realized what it really was, there was nothing I could do.

Almost every illness we experience in a fish tank (if we don't introduce it with new fish by not going through proper QT measures) is introduced by a stressor in the tank. In my case, I added a powerhead to this tank. There were 3 adult breeding groups in there that I had for years who had never been exposed to a powerhead. I firmly believe this was the stressor that caused their immune system to weaken.


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## Jbaby (Jan 1, 2007)

How well oxidated is your tank? I brought in a pretty large load of fish once (about 8) to my 55g and pretty soon they were 'drunk' and knocking into things and laying on the bottom of the tank gasping for air and turning back and forth.

I don't think this is your main problem, seeing as some of the fish dying have been there for a while. But just in case, and because some of the things your describing match what happened to my fish and you mentioned adding fish and having sig. deaths since... lower the water level, throw a $20 power-head in on the side (might wanna angle it up a bit, going for max water turbulence for a day or two) and let your filter outtake fall a bit before hitting the water.

My fish (about 3-4) who were quickly dying slowly got back to normal within a days time. Now I make sure I always hear water falling a bit in my tank. I would always have a fish die off every couple of days in my old setup, and I've had no problems since. Now I wonder if it was due to the bad oxidation (and I mean.. bad  ). Having nice water turbulence at the top of the tank also helps break down chems in the water and such. Overall-good thing.

Regardless of if this helps, or if im horrifically over-simplifying.. just throwing it out there.  And I hope your fish survive! Losing fish can be stressful, especially in a nice big tank. Best of luck! :thumb:

EDIT: Nevermind, didn't see the very last post.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

I'm so sorry about your fish.

Did you ever get your water tested? You mentioned you were concerned about it. 
I'd still like to hear a detailed time line of the symptoms the fish showed before dieing. Some things will kill fish fast, (less then 48 hours), while other things will take longer. The fish may show the same symptoms in both cases but how long the fish has the symptoms can really help to narrow down the possibilities.

Do you have other tanks? If so, or if you're planning on re-stocking this tank then we should try to find out what happened here.

Again, I'm really sorry about the loss of your fish.

Robin


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