# Help out a newbie?



## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Hello all. New to forums, cichlids, and responsible fish keeping in general, looking for a little help to get started. I've been reading through the library section and lots of other posts gathering information, and now I think I'm ready to ask a couple more specific question.

Actually, I have a lot of questions, and I rather large post prepared, but I don't want to overwhelm my help . Would you guys prefer all my questions in one large post, or 1 question at a time shot-gun style?

To start out, I have a standard 55 gallon tank, and I decided I wanted to house some Mbunas.


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## biggcountry (Aug 2, 2009)

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/q ... e_list.php

Check out the cookie cutter setups for a 55gallon aquarium to get a good idea on what you can house. Just post all the questions you have to get it all out in the open...


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

biggcountry said:


> http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/quick_reference_list.php
> 
> Check out the cookie cutter setups for a 55gallon aquarium to get a good idea on what you can house. Just post all the questions you have to get it all out in the open...


OK, you asked for it... 

I have been doing a lot of research already, and hopefully this post will show it.

As I said, I have a 55g tank and I do have a stand. Tank is about 4-5 years old, and was purchased at a petco or similar as part of a kit. It is the 48"x12.5" variety. Of those 4-5 years, it has been kept dry for about 2 years (estimated). It was originally purchased to hold 2 oscars and 2 plecos, which I now know is not enough tank for those fish. Later on, it held a couple giant goldfish for a time. Then, it might have been emptied and stored for a while, before being loaned to a school for 1 school year. After the school year, it was returned and stored dry until now. All that time, the tank was at my parents house while I was in college.

Now I have the tank back, and I'm renting a house with a spot big enough for the tank, and I'm really getting the itch to set it up. Now that I'm a little older and wiser, I've been researching to make sure I do things right. Of course, I also have an isue with over-thinking and over-complicating, which is why I'm here asking for help.

Searching through the library, I learned about cycling, and general water chemistry - things I never new about before. I plan to get a water testing kit to test my local tap water, and then set up the tank for fishless cycling using ammonia.

In the mean time, the library has given me some valuable information on selecting fish. Obviously, since this is the cichlid forum, you've probably deduced that I want to house cichlids . After looking through the cookie cutter setups section, I've determined that Mbuna's are the type of cichlids that really catch my eye and interest. At the advice of the cookie cutter section, I've decided on 3 species sets of 1 male and 3 females each.

1: Psuedotropheus saulosi (my favorite! love the blue color)
2: Cynotilapia afra (Cobue)
3: Labidochromis sp. "Perlmutt"

I've decided on these 3 species because they all have similar dietary needs (they are all listed as herbivores), the colors are appealing to me, and they are all different enough in looks that I will have a diverse looking tank with only a few species.

For a substrate, I've decided on sand. I'm sort of torn on selecting exactly which. I like the look of a dark substrate, and for that reason I've been thinking about Carib Sea Eco Complete cichlid sand. On the other hand, it is also appealing to be able to purchase dirt cheap pool filter sand from home depot. For deco, I plan to keep it cheap and simple by scavenging river rocks, and using some plastic plants. I also already have a tank tape-on background which is a photo on one side, and plain black on the other.

And finally, my goal is to keep things simple and low maintenance. I want to keep it fun and easy so I stay interested and keep up with the tank. I want to enjoy the tank, not create another job.

So, here is my gigantic list of questions. Hopefully I've provided enough information above for someone to be able to help answer.

1: I'm slightly worried about the structural integrity of my tank. If I fill it with water on the back porch, and there are no leaks, should I be good to go? Would I have to worry about a leak developing if the tank remains full in the house? Would I have to worry about a catastrophic failure where the whole tank just falls apart in the house?

2: Does my fish list look alright/reasonable? I have seen in fish stores a certain yellow and black striped cichlid that I don't know the name of. Well, you see my wife isn't exactly thrilled with the idea of a fish tank right now for reasons I don't want to go into, but she is a huge pittsburgh steelers fan and I was thinking that maybe getting her a "steelers fish" might get her a little more excited about the fish tank and be more welcome to it. Does anyone know the name of a cichlid that color, and will it work in my tank with/in place of any of the fish I have already tentatively picked out?

3: Vacations... my wife and I don't travel a lot, but frequently we will go out of town for the weekend to visit family, and maybe once or twice a year we would be away for 1-2 weeks for a real vacation. My research online tells me that for the short weekend trips, the fishies would be ok without being fed. Is this true? For the longer trips, it shouldn't be too hard to get someone to provide ocasional food (2-3 times/week), as we have two cats who need to be checked up on and fed if we're gone for more than a weekend. I wouldn't expect any of my friends to be at all interested in (nor would I trust them in doing) any water changes. Does it sound like I hae anything to worry about here, or is this just me over-worrying and over-thinking?

4: Moving... I mentioned above that I'm currently renting a house. My wife and I are good tennants, but we do not expect to live here forever. Our current lease is up next spring, and we might be forced to move if our londlords decide to sell the property. If everything is going well, my wife and I are planning on living there for 2-5 years until we save up enough to buy a house. How much of a PITA is it really to do a local move with a fish tank? The biggest problem I can think of is losing the bio filter, resulting in losing the fish later on to water toxins. Another option is sort of a long term vision - if all is going well, I would hope to upgrade to a larger tank at some point, and moving might be a good time to do it. Again, though, there would (probably) not be any time to cycle a new tank. So, in everybody's opinion, am I asking for trouble setting up a fish tank now if I know I will be moving in the next 2-5 years?

^^Those 4 questions are the hangups I have right now in determining to even setup the tank. Below are some more specific questions.

5: I have a bunch of used equipment. I'll take stock of it tonight to see exactly what it is I have, but I'm worried mostly about filtration and heating. I have a HOB filter and Heater came as part of the tank starter kit, and I'm thinking I will want to upgrade to something better/more reliable. Keeping in mind that I like simple and easy maintenance, I also want some redundancy (I'd be worried about a component failure while I'm away). Could I use 2 HOB filters and two heaters and get the job done simply with the desired redundancy? I know most often suggested is a HOB filter and a canister, but I'm not sure about using a canister, as I've never used one before. I'm afraid the maintenance involved would become too much work. If I went with 2 HOB's and 2 heaters, can anyone give me some examples of some brands that are considered decent, and the costs I could expect?

6: Filter media... this confuses me the most. I don't know if its just expected that everyone knows what exactly it is and how its used, but I just haven't found anything that explains it in a way I can understand. The only solid information I have found is not to use carbon, but that only confuses me further because every filter I have ever had used disposible carbon filled cartridges. So, what exactly am I supposed to use?

7: With 2 HOB filters, would I need anything else in the tank to move water around and push the fish waste to the HOB filters?

8: I know there are a ton of posts on substrates, but no one seems to ever give any solid advice... Is the Carib Sea Eco complete stuff worth it, considering the price? I like the idea of it being a buffer for the pH and water hardness, and I like the fact that its dark. If not, I guess pool filter sand would work... I'd have to look into the other types of sands more.

9: How deep should my sand be? For my tank, I've calculated that 1" deep is about 35lbs of sand, and 3" deep is about 100lbs of sand. Either of those? Somewhere in the middle? For some reason, I'm thinking that less sand means that less toxins/gas pockets will build up in the sand... or was that with gravel? Am I hopeless? 

10: Whats the maximum number of adult fish of kind that I've picked out that can be kept in my tank comfortably? Is it 12 like the library section says? Is that considered "overstocked" like is recommended to keep aggression at bay?

11: Goes along with number 10... I understand that if I'm providing a good envirionment for my fish that they will start breeding. Well, thats all well and good and fun to watch, but what if I don't want to or can't add more fish? What do I do with the babies? I'm not sure I will have the time to try to sell them or even give them away and have my new hobby still be fun... Will fish stores take them? Is it just a reality of keeping a cichlid aquarium that the babies will have to be euthanized if I can't find anyone to take them?

I know I have some more questions, but I think this is a pretty good start...

Thanks to anyone who takes the time to help me out.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Rhinox said:


> Hello all. New to forums, cichlids, and responsible fish keeping in general, looking for a little help to get started. I've been reading through the library section and lots of other posts gathering information, and now I think I'm ready to ask a couple more specific question.


Thatâ€™s the way to do it! Which typically results in more refined questions that are more fun to answerâ€¦ instead of the same old basics over and overâ€¦ thanks!

1. In my opinion/experience, people are overly eager to â€˜resealâ€™ a tank. If the silicone doesnâ€™t have any considerable visible flaws, and the tank holds water, there is no reason to reseal it.

My father found an old tank of mine that had been in his (non heater/non cooled) garage (in Michigan) for about 15 years. My sister has been using it for about the last 3 years and they never resealed itâ€¦

2. I donâ€™t do Africans, so I canâ€™t help you thereâ€¦

3. Long weekends donâ€™t think twice about the fishâ€¦

If going away more than 5 days I would leave the lights off and turn the heaters down a few degrees. Be cautious having someone else feed the fish, as they may be eager to overfeed which does more harm than good. If you do this I suggest putting one feeding worth of food in a cup covered with Saran Wrap for each day you wish the friend to feed. This removes their freedom to â€œbe niceâ€


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I would like to jump in and say welcome. Your questions seem reasonable. Can I jump to item four about moving. Yes, moving fish can be a pain. That should not stop you, however. If you think positive there are many advantages in moving fish over moving a dog, for instance. Your fish will not slip out the door and run down the street to be lost. Your fish will not chew on the new couch, door, and carpeting. Fish will not get sick and throw up in the car seat. You see where I'm going here? Tell your wife how lucky she is to have such a small problem.  
If your fish ever run out into the street and need a vet, perhaps you can compare prices for that.  
Maybe your wife should talk to me about moving and I can convince her that fish are truly required for any potential move? :lol: 
On a more serious side, do not worry too, too, much over questions of tank cycles. While fish do far better and live longer when tanks cycle first, there is something often overlooked by the "today" fishkeepers. Tank cycle theory is a fairly new idea. Fish had been kept for a very long time before the current thinking came around. Do not think that is an absolute must to cycle a tank. History says it is not. Better, yes. Absolute necessity, no. To defer getting a tank started because of questions of whether you can do it right is to miss out on a lot of pleasure.


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## why_spyder (Mar 2, 2006)

Rhinox said:


> 1: Psuedotropheus saulosi (my favorite! love the blue color)
> 2: Cynotilapia afra (Cobue)
> 3: Labidochromis sp. "Perlmutt"


I don't think the _C. afra_ Cobwe will color up with _Ps. saulosi_ in the tank. If you need to have the _Ps. saulosi_, you will need a more robust _Cynotilapia afra_ species or other species (_C._ sp. "Hara", _C._ sp. "Lion", _C._ sp. "Mbamba", _C. axelrodi_)


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## Isis24 (Dec 10, 2008)

You've received excellent advice from Toby_H! I just wanted to add a tiny bit of info:

Q4, about moving: Last month, I moved from Montreal to Virginia and due to really bad traffic, it was a 20 hour drive. And...I didn't lose my biofilter! It was amazing. I just opened the top valve of my canister and hooked it up as soon as I got to Virginia. It was great. I brought about 20 fish in 2 buckets, and everyone made it perfectly...with the exception of my 2 angels who killed each other in transit (I knew it was coming, and probably should've accounted for that). I'd imagine that a local move would be much easier and less stressful  Once you're attached to your fish, the hassle won't seem like a big deal!

Q5: I also love aqua clear filters. I have 3 of them, and will probably be getting another one soon.

Q6: I have very basic knowledge about filters, but from my understanding, the three most important functions of a filter are:
1. water movement so oxygen content of the water is always replenished
2. Suck up particles so your tank looks clean
3. Bio filtration

Toby_H is right. You don't need "biomedia". Even sponges only have a lot of surface area, so it still provides lots of places for bacteria to attach to a grow on (and so does the rest of the tank).

Great job with all your initiative!


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Thanks everyone for the excellent answers! This is exactly the type of input I was looking for.

Firstly, I'll go through the answered questions:

1: Tank structure - I suppose I'll just fill once on my back porch, check for leaks, then drain and move inside, so long as there are no leaks of course. If there is a problem, I'll probably sell the tank to someone who knows it will need fixing, and replace with a 40-long - same footprint, so it will work on my current stand, but its smaller, lighter, and easier to move if/when the need arrises.

3: Vacations/travel - Pretty much what I though. Creating little segregated cups seems like a great idea! almost foolproof  I don't think our friend who takes care of the cats while we're away would mind dumping prepared portions of food into the tank.

How long can the fishies go for without food? I read somewhere that up to 7 days is fine... What about an autofeeder? more on that below.

4: This really is more important to my wife. I could imagine how pissed she's be at me if we're trying to pack stuff up to move, and I'm packing up the fish instead of helping her  The key would be to be extra helpful during that time, and have an extra day to move the fish AFTER everything else is taken care of. Again, the biggest concern for me would be creating a healthy fish environment after the move. Certainly, my family has bought fish before, placed them in a brand new tank, never did any water changes, and never lost any fish to "new tank syndrome". I assume being responsible with water changes after a move would pretty much eliminate all risk.

5: Equipment - I definately think I want to go with 2 HOB filters. You're pretty much right about the canisters for me - at least until I really get into it, i'm afraid I wouldn't maintain the canisters as often as I should since they seem like more of a hassel. As for heaters, I read about the 1/2 total wattage each for 2 heaters. The reason I'm interested in 2 heaters is to prevent the fish boiling thing in case the heater fails. More on this below.

6: Filter media: I guess what I'm asking is what am I supposed to put in my HOB filters if not the carbon filter cartridges? And do I put sponge over the inlet to the HOB filters, or is that mainly for canisters?

7: Water movement - How do I design the layout of the tank to create the movement I need? The engineer in me intuitively sees with 1 HOB filter on one end of the tank, and the return right above the inlet, that the water could circluate well on that one side of the tank, but how would the water from the far side over get over to the filter?

8 & 9: Sand - yeah, I don't know here... I really like the idea of dark sand (I heard it brings out colors better than white sand), but I like the cheapness of pool filter sand. Makes me wish I brought back a bucket of black volcanic sand from barbados earlier in the summer . Maybe the pool filter sand won't look that bad if I find a good variation of darker colored rocks? As for depth, if it truly doesn't matter, than I'd like to put enough in to get above the black plastic trim piece around the bottom of my tank. I think it looks better that well. When the tank was up before, I put in 50lbs of black aquarium gravel mixed with 5lbs of colored gravel for an interesting effect, but it wasn't enough to get above the trim and that annoyed me because the substrate isn't seen unless your standing next to the tank.

11: The babies - trading for store credit would be doable. Do you know if it would be easy to unload them on craigslist for sale or free? I won't feel bad if the hatch and get eaten in the tank - at least thats what would happen in nature. I'm just trying to avoid having to intentionally flush unwanted babies that would only upset the balance of my tank. I could get a smaller tank to house the babies, but I would feel worse about getting rid of them if/when they got bigger.

12: Background... haha.. I totally respect your opinion, so I hope you won't take it the wrong way when I say that the background is the absolute lowest priority of mine. I'm intending to use the black side of my tape on background right now. Later on, if I'm successful with this tank, when I upgrade to a bigger tank I will do something better with a background. I really like the 3d textured backgrounds, but that is not a complication I want to add to this tank right now. The tape on background will suffice for me for now.



> I don't think the C. afra Cobwe will color up with Ps. saulosi in the tank. If you need to have the Ps. saulosi, you will need a more robust Cynotilapia afra species or other species (C. sp. "Hara", C. sp. "Lion", C. sp. "Mbamba", C. axelrodi)


hmph... that is a shame. I stuck with the species listed in the library for the smaller, less agressive mbuna cookie cutter setup, so I was hoping there wouldn't be any problems like this... I actually created a short list of 5 species from the list that I found appealing:
-Ps. saulosi
-Lab sp. "Hongi"
-Cyn. afra (Cobue)
-iodotropheus sprengerae
-Lab. sp. "Perlmutt"

For me, the Ps. saulosis are a must that I want to pick the rest of the fish around. I am not particularly attached to any of the other species. IMO, the "Hongis" and the Cobue males were very similar looking, and the "Hongis" were more similar to the saulosis, so I picked the Cobue. The "Perlmutt" was the 3rd pick because it was mostly different colored and would provide the greatest contrast and variety in colors. Of the 3 species I picked, I like that the females are also all different colors, so it will increase the variety of colors in the tank and I will be able to tell them apart . Some of the species females are all shades of silver and difficult for me to tell apart, and don't provide any extra colors in the tank. So then is the library section inaccurate with the suggestions? I don't see why the fish would be recommended to go together if there is going to be these types of problems. Apart from the fish in the cookie cutter recommendation, I don't know the first thing about selecting compatible fish, so I really am at the mercy of the boards here. Good new is, if I fishless cycle my tank to start, I'll have a couple months to figure it out, so no real rush now 

In other news, I went out and looked at my old equipment. The filter with the tank right now is a Top Fin 60. According to the internet, its not very good. The heater with the tank is a All-glass aquarium brand 200W heater. Seems like its too much heater for the tank, actually. Even if it weren't, I'd replace it anyways because I don't know how much life it has left, and I can't be sure it was always run under enough water. I also discovered I have 2 Aqua Culture air pumps - 1 large, and 1 smaller (I think the smaller 1 is from a 10 gallon setup). I also found a Daily Double II Auto fish feeder. Worth using? realiable? trouble? Aside from that, I have 2 vacuum syphons, some assorted, cheesy plastic rock deco, and a 10 gallon setup with a small HOB filter and a small 50W heater.

So, I'm looking to buy 2 HOB filters for the tank. The hood on the tank is actually 2 identical 2' hoods, so I have a spot for both (although that means one filter will be on the side, while the other will be in the middle of the tank - will that cause any problems as far as circulation and filtering goes?). I'm also looking for heaters (1 or 2) that total about 110 watts, yes? I'm assuming If I can't get exactly 110, a little more would be better than a little less. Anything else I would need as far as tank equipment goes?

Still looking for ideas for a yellow and black striped cichlid that will work with my tank size and especially will be compatible with the Ps. saulosi species, and still wondering what the maximum capacity of my tank would be, and what would be considered "overstocked" and "overfiltered", keeping in mind I'm only targeting 10-20% water changes once a week. I suppse I could go up to 50% once a week, but I'd rather change as little as possible.


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## actionyak (Mar 16, 2004)

I am not nearly as experienced as those that have already replied, but I'll chime in on a couple of questions for you.

3. When I went away for a 2 week trip, I left a vitamin container, one of the ones with a different snap on lid for each day of the week, with food in it. My neighbor simply came in, unsapped that day, and dumped it in the tank. Worked great.

4. moving a tank stinks, but i've moved mine twice and am getting ready to move it a third time. no casualties so far in the moves.

5. I've got two emperor 400's on my 72 g, and they have been great. I buy the replacement pads online from Ken's Fish, and they are way cheaper than from the lfs. they are not brand name pads, but they work great.

8,9 I used pool filter sand in my tank and never had any regrets. It looks very natural, and it is a coarse grain that does not get sucked into the filters. I rinsed it very well, about a third of a 5 gallon bucket at a time, until there was no small particles left. To me it looks much darker in the tank than it did in the buckets.

Good luck!


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## actionyak (Mar 16, 2004)

For your question of a black and yellow, check out the victoria and malawi combo in this cookie cutter set up:

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/cookie_cutter_40g.php

particularly the Astatotilapia latifasciata. The male is very sharp, and the pic of the adult female is just what you describe, black and yellow stripes. Also, the cookie cutter specifically recommends these with saulosi.

Well, I just looked through all of the other pics in the profile. Seems like there is quite a bit of variation in the female coloring, from bright yellow and black to more of a silver and black.

It's an idea, anyway.


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

Do you like this sand? or are you wanting darker?


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Rhinox said:


> How long can the fishies go for without food? I read somewhere that up to 7 days is fine... What about an autofeeder? more on that below.


Species/type will make a differenceâ€¦. Smaller fish/animals tend to have faster metabolism and therefore need to eat more oftenâ€¦ Mature large Cichlids can go 7 days with no ill results, 14 days without any harmâ€¦

I donâ€™t like the idea of an auto feederâ€¦ Since Iâ€™m rarely (if ever) gone for more than 2 weeksâ€¦ and it would take me watching the thing for a while to earn confidence in it to leave it on while Iâ€™m awayâ€¦

6. I suggest two of the Aqua Clear 110sâ€¦ Use the sponge that comes with it and the Bio Rings that come with itâ€¦ Charcoal is an option, just change it once a month if you use itâ€¦

A prefilter (sponge on the intake) is optional but not necessary. The two times I feel they are very important is when the filter itself does not have mechanical media (the sponge in the AC 110 is mechanical media) or when you have fish small enough to get sucked up by the filterâ€¦

7. The easiest way with 2 HOBs is to create a â€˜rollingâ€™ effect of the water going along the surface, down the front glass, across the bottom to the back wall and hopefully having the momentum to push waste / debris up to the intakesâ€¦

Youâ€™ll find that no matter what you do you wonâ€™t get â€œallâ€


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## football mom (Feb 19, 2006)

If you like the look of the A. latifasciata, I have a little experince with them. I purchased a breeding group about 6 months ago, and I think they are great fish. The females in my group are a nice light yellow with wide black bars, and the males have that amazing red blush. 
My favorite thing about them is that they are active, not at all timid, and beg outrageously to anyone who approaches their tank, unlike most of my mbunas, that hide when startled or disappear whenever anyone except "that woman with the food" appears. They are not aggressive with each other or their L. caeruleus tank-mates. They also breed like rabbits, lol!

I have a group of I. sprengerae in another tank, and I find them to be a little more aggressive to each other than I expected them to be from reading their profiles, but pretty much ignore any other fish in the tank.

Good luck with your cichlid tank, and post pictures when you have it up and running!


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## aji1217 (Aug 22, 2009)

I might be able to help a little here as well-

1: just make sure it is level both when you test fill it and when it is inside.

4: do your best to not let the media dry out, but only use water from the tank. preferably, you would keep all of it wet during the move, if done correctly it should have minimal impact on the balance.

8&9...

/sigh

I suggest making your sand no more than an inch deep, but this is biased. I originally, and very foolishly in my first attempt at using sand, made it about 4-5" deep in my 200G. about a month later I was shoveling out over 100 pounds of it. was turning black and smelly. not a huge deal normally, but between the trumpet snails and the clams, it was becoming a big problem. Also I did have a bubble that came up and hit one of my fish while cleaning, went belly up almost instantly. shallow sand and keep it raked if you don't have anything that will do it for you (trumpets, clams, digging fish, tiny scuba men etc..).

I used generic play sand. it can be a pain to clean off the bat, but I think it looks nice.


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## aji1217 (Aug 22, 2009)

oh, and welcome! I haven't been here too long myself, but it is a great community!


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

actionyak said:


> For your question of a black and yellow, check out the victoria and malawi combo in this cookie cutter set up:
> 
> http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/cookie_cutter_40g.php
> 
> ...


Thanks for the suggestion... I too saw that particular combo, and was excited until I found that the females seem more likely to be silver than the yellow and black found in that 1 picture. *sigh*



eddy said:


> Do you like this sand? or are you wanting darker?


That sand isn't bad... what kind is it?



> 6. I suggest two of the Aqua Clear 110sâ€¦ Use the sponge that comes with it and the Bio Rings that come with itâ€¦ Charcoal is an option, just change it once a month if you use itâ€¦
> 
> A prefilter (sponge on the intake) is optional but not necessary. The two times I feel they are very important is when the filter itself does not have mechanical media (the sponge in the AC 110 is mechanical media) or when you have fish small enough to get sucked up by the filterâ€¦


I've been looking online for some local stores where I can find filters. I haven't found a lot of info on availability or price of the AQ110's, but I have found some info on Emperor 400's. I've heard lots of good things about them, and there seems to be a good deal on amazon right now - $47 + $8 shipping each. I could go with 2 of them. Does anyone know if they come with the bio wheels, or if those are separate?



> 7. The easiest way with 2 HOBs is to create a â€˜rollingâ€™ effect of the water going along the surface, down the front glass, across the bottom to the back wall and hopefully having the momentum to push waste / debris up to the intakesâ€¦
> 
> Youâ€™ll find that no matter what you do you wonâ€™t get â€œallâ€


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

Rhinox said:


> That sand isn't bad... what kind is it?
> 
> It came from home depot. It is the sand in the burlap bag. 3-4$ for 50lbs.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

eddy said:


> Rhinox said:
> 
> 
> > That sand isn't bad... what kind is it?
> ...


Hmmm... looks like we might have a winner.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Do you think I would be ok with my current hood? it has a spot for one filter on the far left edge of the tank, and the other would be in the middle of the tank. I'm guessing piling the rocks higher on the left side of the tank and lower on the right will entice the water to swirl over to the right side of the tank? Again, this may be an area where I'm simply overthinking...


It'll work fine even if it's not ideal. Personally, I wouldn't want to live with a hood that restricted my filtration options though. I'd eventually modify or replace, but not a huge deal really. You can always add a circulation pump at the other end of the tank.



> So, thats 100W total? So I would be ok with 2 50W heaters if I chose to use 2?


I wouldn't go wtih two heaters unless you put them on a single controller. If you properly size a single heater, you won't have a problem with cooking your fish. Since there are no fish involved yet, get a single heater installed and crank it up to full. If it heats the tank to over 90 degrees, it's oversized. Go with something smaller. A lot has to do with room temp, so hard to say what you should try, but I'd try a 75 first. There's no reason to have a heater that can heat a tank to over 90 degrees. Two heaters working independently may operate erratically. You can't count on them to come on at same time. Hobbyist heaters aren't that precise. Most are cheap junk, to be honest. For every model someone raves about, there's someone else who's had a bad experience. Check the user reviews section and it'll confirm it. Take the visi-therm, for instance. Toby has had a postive experience, while I threw all mine in the trash and went with Hydor Theo's. At one time I raved about visi-therm's and that's all I went with. Went through a bad batch and wouldn't own another. Just don't go cheap brand, and accept that they will eventually fail. You're wise to be thinking about not overheating the tank.



> I suppose I'll be safe and go shallower - at least to start out.


I'd agree. Many go too deep with sand. Just go with what they need and start shallow.



> Also, I'm wondering is it recommended/not recommended to use egg crate/lighting grid material with a sand substrate?


That's been a hot topic here forever. My view, waste of time, and money. Does nothing to add suppport or prevent the breaking of tanks. Looks horrible when uncovered by fish. Aquariums are made to hold rocks. You could fill it with rocks and it won't break the tank bottom. And that's all I'm going to say about that. 



> can't really start it cycling until I get the sand, rocks, filters, and heater(s) can I?


Best to wait for filters. If water is up to room temp, then heater and rocks not necessary.



> Speaking of rocks for deco, roughly how many lbs of rocks should I be shooting for to provide adequate hiding spots?


It's more art than science, just keep maintenance in mind. Detritus will get trapped under and around rocks and you're going to need to be able to remove it from time to time. Turkey basters work. So, just don't pack so many, so tightly that you can never blow stuff out from in and around them. Filters only do so much. Some will always settle and get trapped. Having said that, I like a heavily rocked tank for rift lake cichlids. Just keep maintenance in mind. For a 55, I'd be looking for 25 or more just so I had options. Once I start placing rocks, I like to have size and shape options. As I said, it's more art than sicience. Add a rock, step back and see how it looks. I know what I like and what I don't. I just bought 1200# from a rock supply yard to scape 8 six footers. It's about 150-175 rocks, so average of about 20 or so per tank. I may end up going back for more.  Cost was only about $150. An LFS would have charged $2 per pound. These were .14 per pound.



> Thinking ahead, I'm going to need some dechlorinator. I remember reading about a brand that provides a protective coating for the fish and is less likely to cloud the water, but I can't remember the name... any idea?


One of my pet peeves. Why do fish need to be subjected to an irritant that causes them to increase a protective slime coating? This additive (if it even works as advertised) is just not necessary, or desirable IMO. Go with something that just deals with chlorine/chloramine. Prime is the one that is highly recommended here, but it's the one that has the slime coat stimulant. I prefer Ammolock becuase it doesn't. If you've just got chlorine like myself, you can mix up your own with sodium thiosulfate crystals and save a bundle of $$. But make sure you don't have chloramine in your tap. If you have chloramine, or suspect your water company may add it in the future, then best to go with a commercial product.



> I also need a water test kit. Again, I read about the test kit that just about everyone uses, but I can't remember that name either...


Get the API freshwater kit, and the API GH/KH kit. It'll cover everything and isnt' that expensive. Learn to use all and get to know what each parameter means. Check out the article Practical Water Chemistry, if you haven't already.

You're doing a really nice and thorough job of preparing. :thumb:



> Good new is, if I fishless cycle my tank to start, I'll have a couple months to figure it out, so no real rush now


Hats off to you for going fishless. :thumb:


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

Rhinox said:


> eddy said:
> 
> 
> > Rhinox said:
> ...


 The only downfall is it is dusty so it needs washed good. It is rather coarse though so gas pockets are not a problem at all.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

> It'll work fine even if it's not ideal. Personally, I wouldn't want to live with a hood that restricted my filtration options though. I'd eventually modify or replace, but not a huge deal really. You can always add a circulation pump at the other end of the tank.


Good to know. I'll probably just go with the setup as is for now and see how it works.



> I wouldn't go wtih two heaters unless you put them on a single controller. If you properly size a single heater, you won't have a problem with cooking your fish. Since there are no fish involved yet, get a single heater installed and crank it up to full. If it heats the tank to over 90 degrees, it's oversized. Go with something smaller. A lot has to do with room temp, so hard to say what you should try, but I'd try a 75 first. There's no reason to have a heater that can heat a tank to over 90 degrees. Two heaters working independently may operate erratically. You can't count on them to come on at same time. Hobbyist heaters aren't that precise. Most are cheap junk, to be honest. For every model someone raves about, there's someone else who's had a bad experience. Check the user reviews section and it'll confirm it. Take the visi-therm, for instance. Toby has had a postive experience, while I threw all mine in the trash and went with Hydor Theo's. At one time I raved about visi-therm's and that's all I went with. Went through a bad batch and wouldn't own another. Just don't go cheap brand, and accept that they will eventually fail. You're wise to be thinking about not overheating the tank.


OK, so everybody seems to be telling me to go with 1 heater, so I think thats what I'll do. More on heaters below.



> That's been a hot topic here forever. My view, waste of time, and money. Does nothing to add suppport or prevent the breaking of tanks. Looks horrible when uncovered by fish. Aquariums are made to hold rocks. You could fill it with rocks and it won't break the tank bottom. And that's all I'm going to say about that.


Alright. Makes sense. No need to do something pointless.



eddy said:


> Rhinox said:
> 
> 
> > eddy said:
> ...


It's not too coarse that I'll lose the benefits of having a sand substrate, is it? I.e. will the stuff I need to vacuum up still stay above the sand and easy to vacuum off? I don't mind washing.. shouldn't take to much work in the grand scheme of things.

So, I ran over to Petsmart during my lunch break today just to see what was available there. Didn't buy anything, just looking. The only thing I was able to find was the API test kit. Couldn't find the API GH/KH kit though.

I took a look at the dechlorinators, and found neither the Prime, nor the Ammolock. What I did find was tetra aquasafe, and Top fin water conditioner. Well, there was a large jug of something else, but I forgot the name already. Is this an area where going with the cheapest stuff will still adequately get the job done?

Checked out the heaters - they seemed to go only in 50W increments. I did see some Hydor brands. None of the other brands were mentioned here. There were no 75W heaters available there. Are they easier to find elsewhere? If I can't find a 75, should I try out a 100?

Also looked at their filters. Almost exclusively Top Fin brand. I'm starting to think about costs, and wondering if I would be OK going with 2 Top Fin 60's. The box said one will cycle 300 gallons per hour. That means 600 for 2 of them, and since I would be running 2, I'd have redundancy in case one fails. I already have 1, so adding a second would only cost about $25. Just wondering if I really NEED the top of the line equipment right now just starting out. The tank water stayed clear before running just 1 of these with 2 large oscars and 2 large plecos in the tank and that was without even doing weekly water changes (didn't know they were needed). I think that 2 should get the job done with a dozen smaller african cichlids then, right? Not ideal, but should it be enough?

I also found the yellow and black cichlid I was thinking of. Its the Melanochromis auratus females. *sigh*... a little too aggresive for the tank I'm trying to develop. Also saw some Pseudotropheus crabro females in the store. Still aggressive, but less so than the auratus, but much larger than the other fish I was looking at (up to 8").

Question though... the females usually arn't as aggressive as the males, right?. If I keep just 1 or maybe 2 of the Melanochromis auratus females in my tank an no males, will I be ok, or will I still have the aggression issues? I don't really care for the look of the males anyways, nor letting them breed.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Is this an area where going with the cheapest stuff will still adequately get the job done?


Yes, definitely. Just make sure you know if your tap has chloramine and get something that deals with it properly. It'll break the chlorine/ammonia bond, then neutralize the chlorine, and bind up the ammonia.



> Checked out the heaters - they seemed to go only in 50W increments. I did see some Hydor brands. None of the other brands were mentioned here. There were no 75W heaters available there. Are they easier to find elsewhere? If I can't find a 75, should I try out a 100?


You can try a 100, but I'd test it out. If it'll overheat your tank, then you run some risk. If you test a 50 and it's too small, wasted money. But, if you get one too big and two years down the road it kills are your gorgeous fish... Each has to decide for themselves how much they're willing to invest to overcome potential risk.



> Also looked at their filters. Almost exclusively Top Fin brand. I'm starting to think about costs, and wondering if I would be OK going with 2 Top Fin 60's. The box said one will cycle 300 gallons per hour. That means 600 for 2 of them, and since I would be running 2, I'd have redundancy in case one fails. I already have 1, so adding a second would only cost about $25. Just wondering if I really NEED the top of the line equipment right now just starting out. The tank water stayed clear before running just 1 of these with 2 large oscars and 2 large plecos in the tank and that was without even doing weekly water changes (didn't know they were needed). I think that 2 should get the job done with a dozen smaller african cichlids then, right? Not ideal, but should it be enough?


Have you considered going online? You pay something for shipping, but you have a much greater selection and price. I haven't heard anything good about Top Fin. Order everything you need like heater, filters, etc, and it spreads out the shipping cost.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

> Yes, definitely. Just make sure you know if your tap has chloramine and get something that deals with it properly. It'll break the chlorine/ammonia bond, then neutralize the chlorine, and bind up the ammonia.


How do I find out? Is there a test kit for it, or are community water reports easy to find? I'm also in NE Ohio (Cleveland Area - South Euclid), so water comes out of Lake Erie... don't know whats added to it though.



> You can try a 100, but I'd test it out. If it'll overheat your tank, then you run some risk. If you test a 50 and it's too small, wasted money. But, if you get one too big and two years down the road it kills are your gorgeous fish... Each has to decide for themselves how much they're willing to invest to overcome potential risk.


Yeah, I don't wanna kill the fish, and murphey's law states that it'll break while I'm away, or the day I'm in too much of a hurry to check the water temp in the morning. I was thinking of going with 2 50's, that way if/when one gets stuck on, it wouldn't be enough to boil the fish. I can also look online for heaters too. For reference, this summer we've kept the A/C in the house at 72, and this winter we'll probably keep the heat set at 68. There really should be an equation to use to figure out how many watts will be needed to maintain a water temp. I just wish I could remember more from my thermodynamics classes 



> Have you considered going online? You pay something for shipping, but you have a much greater selection and price. I haven't heard anything good about Top Fin. Order everything you need like heater, filters, etc, and it spreads out the shipping cost.


Yeah, just today I noticed I could buy 2 Emperor 400's off of amazon from petco for about $110. I also just read some reviews that said the Top Fin 60 filters don't provide bio filtering? Wife might get mad if she finds out how much money I'm spending though . I've heard good things about the E400s, and they seem to be a little cheaper than the Aqua Clear 110's that have been recommended, so I think I may bite the bullet and go with them, and hide the receipt from the wife .


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

Rhinox said:


> > It'll work fine even if it's not ideal. Personally, I wouldn't want to live with a hood that restricted my filtration options though. I'd eventually modify or replace, but not a huge deal really. You can always add a circulation pump at the other end of the tank.
> 
> 
> Good to know. I'll probably just go with the setup as is for now and see how it works.
> ...


 No everything stays on top.









I wouldn't buy anything from petsmart or petco. *** gotten fish there twice and got ick both times and there prices are through the roof on everything else.

I would order online or check out criagslist or even ebay. I would go with a ac110/500 or a 400 bio wheel and a 100w heater.

You can probably get those filters on ebay for the same or less than petsmart/petco wants for a p.o.s.

*** never had a problem with any of my heaters(all different brands) unless they were way old and should have already been replaced( junky ones that were through ins with used tanks my fault) but it seems others have so I won't suggest a brand.

Looks like about $60 brand new on ebay for the emperor 400 and about $70 for the ac110 to your door.

Like I said I would go with the AC110 but it's pretty easy to spend other peoples money.

Personally I would not spend much money setting up a 55 gallon tank unless you are serious about upgrading later and buy things you can use on a bigger tank. 55s are all over craigslist with filters,heaters and the whole deal for around $100


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> How do I find out? Is there a test kit for it, or are community water reports easy to find? I'm also in NE Ohio (Cleveland Area - South Euclid), so water comes out of Lake Erie... don't know whats added to it though.


Didn't notice you're in the Cleveland area. You're in luck. We just have chlorine and no way the city of Cleveland is going to spring for chloramine anytime in the near future. Get a simple, basic dechlorinator. Cheapest you can find. And for future, here's the water company web site. There's a link to the water quality report.



> There really should be an equation to use to figure out how many watts will be needed to maintain a water temp. I just wish I could remember more from my thermodynamics classes


There is. Here's an online calculator. Some think it's wrong, but has worked for me. It came up with 93 degrees for a 68 degree room, so go for the 100w. I'd still do the 'set on full' test. You'll be able to see how high and how fast it heats. Even if it has potential to overheat, if it takes 12 hours or more, then it gives you some margin for safety. It'll also give you some guidance for future tanks.

PM me if you need any help with the setup. My sister's in S. Euclid and I'm sometimes in that area.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

> I've been looking online for some local stores where I can find filters. I haven't found a lot of info on availability or price of the AQ110's, but I have found some info on Emperor 400's. I've heard lots of good things about them, and there seems to be a good deal on amazon right now - $47 + $8 shipping each. I could go with 2 of them. Does anyone know if they come with the bio wheels, or if those are separate?


While tha Emporer filters are good filtersâ€¦

The Aqua Clears hold a number of advantagesâ€¦ 25% more flow rate, does not need new media (saves $), holds a lot more media, holds a wider range of media, etc

You can check Ebay for Aqua Clear filters if your looking for the absolute cheapest priceâ€¦ Also check here for an option - http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... p?t=200281

7. Place your filters however practicalâ€¦ then just play with ideas for dÃ©cor. My guess is you will change it around about 17 times before upgrading to a larger tank that allows you more optionsâ€¦ sorry, this is addictiveâ€¦



> So, thats 100W total? So I would be ok with 2 50W heaters if I chose to use 2?


Yes, one 100W or two 50W heatersâ€¦ Although I agree with Prov 1 is better than 2...



> Also, I'm wondering is it recommended/not recommended to use egg crate/lighting grid material with a sand substrate? I'll be piling a bunch of rocks in the tank, so I want to make sure I'm not putting too much stress on the bottom of the tank. Is it better/just as good to just pile the rocks on top of the sand? The reason I'm wondering is because I can imagine the grid would make it a problem to rake the sand, with all the little cubes providing places where I just won't be able to reach. It seems like it would be too much of a hassel if I would have to remove the grid to properly rake the sand, because it seems like I would have to take out all or most of the sand and deco to even get the grid back in. suggestions?


You can use egg crate if you wantâ€¦ I tend to believe itâ€™s value is over hypedâ€¦ you can read several threads on the topicâ€¦

If you do choose to use it donâ€™t worry about not being able to rake that .5â€


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Read all the posts, but not going to comment on all points individually.

Tonight, I cleaned off my tank and stand. Stand was completely covered in dust, but now looks good as new. Tank was actually stored outside under a tarp for a few months, so it took a little scrubbing to get it clean inside and out. Good news is it is now clean, but there is some bad news.

1: minor point, the bottom inside of the tank is scratched. I'll never see it so it doesn't matter, but I was wondering if the scratches would weaken the glass and possible lead to a fracture down the road? The bottom of the tank is tempered if it matters.

2: possible bigger concern - the black plastic framing around the top of the tank has become unstuck in 1 section. It seems like someone at some point tried to lift the tank by the plastic at some point. Is this something I should worry about? Is it going to weaken the tank or anything like that? I mean, by rights I guess I should take it off and stick it back on with new silicone, but I'd rather not do that unless the tank is going to fall apart if I don't. If the biggest problem is that I might get a rattle, I think I could live with that.

Moving on, I stopped at a different pet store on the way home from work to look and browse more equipment. This store sold emperor 400's (for an outrageous price, mind you), but I was suprised at just how BIG those things actually are... I mean, I didn't measure, but I'm actually worried if it would even fit on the back of my tank. 2 of them seem like they would literally take up the entire back ledge of the glass. I don't think I'd be able to use my current hoods with the E400s, because I don't think the cutouts for the filter would be big enough. I might be able to chop them up with a dremel and get them to work, but I think I would end up having to construct my own hood. I think I would be handy enough to do it, but it is an added complexity and expense.

However, after looking at the ebay prices for the AC110s, I think I'll go with them as they're not much more than the best prices I've found for the E400's. Are the dimensions of the AC110's equally big? will I have any trouble fitting them on the back of my tank?

edit: found the dimensions and they will fit... still will need to modify or build a new hood probably. I'm starting to wonder if I really need 2 of these filters.

I think I'm going to take a trip to home depot tomorrow to search for some basic sand. I'll test my tap water, and plan on buffering with baking soda and epsom salt if I need to, rather than spending a ton of money on a substrate that buffers. I hope to get some rock hunting in this weekend. I'll also be on the lookout for a bottle of ammonia to start my cycle once my filters arrive.

Feeling a little overwhelmed at the moment, but it seems like everything is starting to come together. The empty tank looks nice sitting in my house at the moment, and I hope it will look nice filled with water and then fish soon


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Sorry for the double post... just wanted to say that I bit the bullet and just ordered 2 AC110's off of ebay. They ended up being cheaper than the E400's because I got free shipping from the retailer  So, no turning back now. Still on my immediate list are a sand substrate, rocks for deco, dechlorinator, heater, API freshwater test kit and KH/GH test kit, and ammonia to start the cycle.

My filters won't ship til monday, and if I'm lucky, they'll get here by the end of next week. They're only coming from 1 state away.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I'm starting to wonder if I really need 2 of these filters.


Same here. Each one is rated to move 500gph. Even taking off some of that for manufacturer exaggeration and you're still moving a lot of water in a 55. You don't need two for the media involved, that's for sure. If you decide you need more current later, resolve that with a smal internal pump.



> but I was wondering if the scratches would weaken the glass and possible lead to a fracture down the road?


Tank bottoms scratch all the time. I wouldn't give it another thought. As long as we're talking scratch and not a long, deep gouge. Technically someone could say that a scratch weakens glass, but practically speaking, the bottom isn't going to blow out because of one IMO.



> It seems like someone at some point tried to lift the tank by the plastic at some point. Is this something I should worry about?


No. If it had a missing or broken center brace, then that would be something that would cause concern.



> I'll test my tap water, and plan on buffering with baking soda and epsom salt if I need to, rather than spending a ton of money on a substrate that buffers.


Good plan as substrates that buffer often don't make that big of a difference. If your water tests out like mine, then an occasional TBSP of sodium bicarb and Epsom will do fine. Cheap and easy.



> I'll also be on the lookout for a bottle of ammonia to start my cycle once my filters arrive.


Try Walmart first. The Walmart in this area carries what you need. I can't remember what they call it, but it's got a blue label. It'll list ammonia, water, chelating agents as the ingredients.


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

prov356 said:


> > "No. If it had a missing or broken center brace, then that would be something that would cause concern"
> >
> > I gotta disagree here. IMO that top brace needs siliconed back on. It will only cost a few $ and water will leak from there I have had it happen.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

> Same here. Each one is rated to move 500gph. Even taking off some of that for manufacturer exaggeration and you're still moving a lot of water in a 55. You don't need two for the media involved, that's for sure. If you decide you need more current later, resolve that with a smal internal pump.


Well, I already ordered the pair, so no use worrying about it now. At least that means I'll have plenty of filtering if/when I upgrade to a bigger tank. In the meantime, shouldn't have to worry about inadequate filtering in my 55g  And if that means I'll have an easier time keeping up with the tank maintenance, well then it'll be worth it IMO.



> No. If it had a missing or broken center brace, then that would be something that would cause concern.





> I gotta disagree here. IMO that top brace needs siliconed back on. It will only cost a few $ and water will leak from there I have had it happen.


hmmm... well, when you mentioned the broken center brace being a cause for concern, I went and had a closer look at the entire piece, and lo and behold, I found a crack. It not actually on the center brace, but its at the corner of one side where the triangle flange part of the center brace meets the long edge of the framing. Now thats got me a little worried. I'm thinking I might just rip the whole top piece off now before filling the tank, fix the crack with some quick-setting epoxy (the kind the comes in the small plunger tubes), and then silicone the top back on. Can someone give me a quick and dirty rundown for how to go about removing the top piece of plastic and putting it back on? Is it just as simple as prying it off, scraping out all the old silicone, and then filling the groove with new silicone and sticking it back in place?

Where can I buy the silicone? Home depot?



> Try Walmart first. The Walmart in this area carries what you need. I can't remember what they call it, but it's got a blue label. It'll list ammonia, water, chelating agents as the ingredients.


Well, I'm planning on making a home depot run tomorrow morning, so hopefully I can find some there. I'm looking for sand, a bucket or 2 (for cleaning the sand, and later to be used for water changes), and now possibly some silicone if you can indeed find it at home depot.


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

Use a heavy fishing line to "saw" the brace off. You can get silicone at home depot or wal mart just make sure it says 100% silicone.

The glass will cut the fishing line a few times just feed it back through and star again. Small wire will work too. Prying it will likely break the corners.

It can be a pain although the top is much easier that the bottom.

Your tank is not going to fall apart but it will leak where that top piece is not stuck on if you don't fix it. Specially with all that water movement your going to have.

Those filters have adjustments on the so you can turn them down. Good choice in filters IMO now you are good all the way up to a 125 if you decide to upgrade thats just one less thing you will need.

After you silicone the top on either turn the tank upside down or put some weight on it for 24 hours.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

For Silicone... I siggest GE Silicone I Windows & Doors...

GE Silicone II has 'BioSeal'... and Kitchen & Bath also has an antifungal agent... both of these ammonia based and thus not recommended for aquarium use...

There is some question as to if the 'BioSeal' in GE II is safe or not... but the GEI is definitely safe and has been the same aquarium safe compound for many years (the GEII w/ 'BioSeal' is a new formula).

DAP also makes an aquarium safe line. The Plus Series is not aquarium safe.. the non Plus Series is aquarium safe...


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## Demasonian (Oct 23, 2005)

Great advice you're getting from people already, but I noticed not too much commentary on the fish...

So here's my two cents on the fish your're trying to choose between.

Saulosi - are great fish to build a tank around. Alternatives would be Demasoni or Afra.
Afra - I would stay away from mixing afra with saulosi, chance of aggression between males due to colour and pattern similarities. 
Perlmutts - nice fish, should work with Saulosi. BUT, consider replacing Perlmutts with yellow labs...This would give you a yellow and black fish without the potential aggession problems of an auratus.

As a third species, Iodotropheus sprengerae would be a good fit with labs and saulosi. Another fish to consider might be Ps. Acei (http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... hp?id=1460)

:thumb:


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

That's true, water may go up and under the frame and down the front. Not a structural threat, but can get annoying. I was thinking structurally only.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

> Use a heavy fishing line to "saw" the brace off. You can get silicone at home depot or wal mart just make sure it says 100% silicone.


Thanks for the tip. After I get it off, then use a screwdriver or something to scrape all the old silicone out of the groove? Hopefully it'll be a good weekend project. I'm busy today, but I'll have all day tomorrow to fix it. Give me something to do anyways while I'm waiting for my filters to ship.



> For Silicone... I siggest GE Silicone I Windows & Doors...


Thanks... assuming I can find this at home depot?



Demasonian said:


> Great advice you're getting from people already, but I noticed not too much commentary on the fish...
> 
> So here's my two cents on the fish your're trying to choose between.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice. Haven't forgotten about the fish discussion - just thought it would be better to work out all the tank setup issues first since I might have up to 2 months to wait for the tank to be ready for fish.

I really like the saulosis  I looked through all the other fish in the african mbuna section and haven't found I fish I like better. I thought about the yellow labs, but they are almost ALL yellow with only a little bit of black, and I'll already have yellow in the tank from my saulosi females.

I just looked through the afra pictures and I see what you mean about it being similarly colored and patterned - I only looked at the first picture with the purple and yellow fish, didn't realize that was an atypical color pattern.

I like the coloring on the Io. sprengerae - still considering them. Only thing I don't really like is the plain silver coloring of the females... just means I wouldn't want another species with silver females. the perlmutts have silver females, but at least they have black stripes.

I'm confused about the "Acei"... the males look like saulosi's with a yellowish tail, and its a Pseudotropheus just like the saulosi... seems like I would have some problems there with agression as well since they look similar, but also they wouldn't really create any diversity in the color in the tank.

Maybe I'll just fill the entire tank with saulosis... 3 male, 9 female? 

About the auratus... even 1 female in the tank would be too aggressive then? The yellow labs could grow on me though, I'm just worried about too much yellow in the tank, not to mention they don't look much different from the saulosi females.

idk, I still got time to think about it...


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## Demasonian (Oct 23, 2005)

A 55 gallon saulosi species tank would be pretty cool. One of my favourite tanks on this site was a 29 gallon saulosi species tank: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/tanks/inde ... er&u=58723

For the Acei, no worries there on hybridization...they're an open water mbuna who grow to about 5-6 inches. Males and females are identical in colouration and they come in different colour morphs including black-ish and white-ish http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... php?id=835 and my personal favourite as I once kept a group of these, dark purple and yellow jtunji http://pets.webshots.com/photo/13415782 ... 1031WAdiXI. But, might not fit the colour scheme you're going for.

Yellow labs have a solid yellow body, but their fins are black.

The difficulty with auratus is that females can often turn out to be males...That is, sub-dominant males can maintain female colouring at the store, and suddenly "turn male" when you bring them home. Not saying it can't be done, though, as there are few absolutes in this hobby. A single fish might be your best bet.

Once you're more comfortable with cichlid keeping and can convince your wife of the need for a second, larger tank, you can keep some Tropheus sp. black Ikola http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PHnEWlD ... re=related to satisfy the black, yellow requirement... 

As you say, though, more important to work out the structural and equipment side of the picture before worrying about fish.


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## why_spyder (Mar 2, 2006)

Rhinox said:


> I like the coloring on the Io. sprengerae - still considering them. Only thing I don't really like is the plain silver coloring of the females...


_
I. sprengerae_ females should be almost the same color as the males - not silver. Many times the males will have a bit more purple in their body, but this can vary with the strain/bloodline.



Rhinox said:


> I'm confused about the "Acei"... the males look like saulosi's with a yellowish tail, and its a Pseudotropheus just like the saulosi... seems like I would have some problems there


_Ps. acei_ are a good neutral species that won't compete with other species for territory. They prefer to form schools and swim in open water so they won't be competing with _Ps. saulosi_ males. Also, the coloration between the two is quite a bit different in-person.



Rhinox said:


> Maybe I'll just fill the entire tank with saulosis... 3 male, 9 female?


Species only would work fine, but with three males I would have at least 12 females.



Rhinox said:


> About the auratus... even 1 female in the tank would be too aggressive then?


I would avoid all _Melanochromis_ (except maybe _M. cyaneorhabdos_), even the females. Females can be just as nasty as males (not limited to _Melanochromis_ either).


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## why_spyder (Mar 2, 2006)

Demasonian said:


> http://www.cichlid-forum.com/tanks/index.php?mode=owner&u=58723


 :lol: That's a 15g with two goldfish.... not quite _Ps. saulosi_ but close.


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## Demasonian (Oct 23, 2005)

> Laugh Out Loud That's a 15g with two goldfish.... not quite Ps. saulosi but close. Razz


Errr. Those aren't saulosi??!?  :lol:

Yeeeahh. The tank I was trying to link to was one by John Labbe...Let's try this link instead...

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/tanks/images/2205a.jpg


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## Tshethar (Jul 20, 2009)

Been enjoying this thread. A fun way to pick up odds and ends! So, here are a couple more, which you can find elsewhere on here if you look, but in case it saves you the trouble:

1) On the fishless cycling, some people can't find straight ammonia without "surfactants" (foaming agents) at Home Depot or Walmart, though this may depend on your region of the country. If you're not sure what you have when you're in the store, shake the bottle; if you see foam, it's not what you want. If you have an Ace Hardware, their own brand of Ammonia, which says "Janitorial Strength Formula" on the bottle, has worked for me and for others on here.

2) Don't worry about where the manufacturer's cutouts are on the back of your hood. If you need more room for your heater and your two new filters (nice pickups you won't regret for a second, IMO), you can take a hacksaw to the plastic and cut all the way to the corner if you need or want to. It's good to cover as much open water as you can to keep jumpers from escaping your tank, but structurally there is no problem for the hood if you need to take out these corners to accommodate equipment. (Also, I've never had to mess with a center brace, but if you had to cut through one and re-silicone it, I think a hacksaw would work fine--not sure if the fishing line is needed. Just sand off any burrs.)

3) Oh yeah, lol :lol: , maybe the most important piece of advice: Don't hide the receipts from your wife!! It's basically a given that once the hobby bug bites, you will absolutely continue to find more things that are "must-have" items, and the price tag only goes up...  soon it will be texas holey rock, test kits, NLS foods, a python for water changes, algae magnet, you name it... you can always drop another $100+ on something or other, so if I were you I'd try to nip any growing spousal resentment in the bud! In my household, we worked it out so that if I get to spend $200 on my hobby this month, then my wife gets to set aside $200 from the collective pot to spend on whatever she wants. If some item comes up that I really want and the cost goes beyond our previous agreement, I think twice about whether I need it and then I go make my pitch. So far she's given in every time, but now she also has her first ipod and some new clothes. :wink: We're lucky enough to have a little extra to play around with right now, so this is workable, but basically, if you don't maintain some sense of "fairness" about personal spending, it will come back and bite you!!!  Bet you never thought you'd get marriage advice on Cichlid Forum, eh? Maybe it deserves it's own thread, "Compatibility Questions among Bi-parental Hominids" :lol:


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## actionyak (Mar 16, 2004)

Here's another Steeler color fish. Can't remember if anyone suggested it already.

Pseudotropheus flavus

Thanks above to the correct link to the saulosi tank, that is beautiful.


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

Rhinox said:


> > Use a heavy fishing line to "saw" the brace off. You can get silicone at home depot or wal mart just make sure it says 100% silicone.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the tip. After I get it off, then use a screwdriver or something to scrape all the old silicone out of the groove? Hopefully it'll be a good weekend project. I'm busy today, but I'll have all day tomorrow to fix it. Give me something to do anyways while I'm waiting for my filters to ship.
> ...


 Silicone doesn't bond to plastic that well so it might just peel right out of the grove but if not a screw driver will work. Use a razor to clean the glass side.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Demasonian said:


> > Laugh Out Loud That's a 15g with two goldfish.... not quite Ps. saulosi but close. Razz
> 
> 
> Errr. Those aren't saulosi??!?  :lol:
> ...


Thanks for that link. Thats really making me think about going all saulosi's. I really like that tank.

P.S. what is the orange and black fish in your avatar? My wifes favorite color is orange, so an orange fish might be just as good as a "steelers" fish for getting my wife more excited about the fish tank.

@Tshethar: Thanks for all the advice, even the marital advice  I don't really have to hide the receipts from my wife. We both contribute our equal shares to the coffers, and typically we spend our excesses equally and fairly as well. Its just that she thinks the fish tank is going to be a big hassle, and I'm trying to convince her it won't be. She's already letting me set it up though, so now I'm just trying to get her excited about it, and although spending $100 on filters isn't going to break our budget, its not exactly going to help me get her excited about the fish tank.



actionyak said:


> Here's another Steeler color fish. Can't remember if anyone suggested it already.
> 
> Pseudotropheus flavus
> 
> Thanks above to the correct link to the saulosi tank, that is beautiful.


Thanks for the link. Can those fish work in a tank with saulosis? they're both pseudotropheus...


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## actionyak (Mar 16, 2004)

> Thanks for the link. Can those fish work in a tank with saulosis? they're both pseudotropheus...


I'll have to let someone with more experience answer that one. I happened to come across it as I was researching some options and remembered you were hunting for something yellow and black.

Personally I like the colors of that saulosi tank better, but then again I am not a Steelers fan.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

> Personally I like the colors of that saulosi tank better, but then again I am not a Steelers fan.


Neither am I 

Anyways, I'm looking for a little magic right now... I'm trying to get the top off of the tank, and its a stubborn SOB... I pretty much got both front and back loose, but I just can't get the corners and the corners and the 2 ends... I tried the fishing line thing... get to about 2" from any corner and it just doesn't want to get any close. I'm a pretty strong guy so I keep yanking on it hoping it will break loose, but I'm worried the plastic will break before the silicone gives way... Any miracle tips out there for getting this thing off? I'm stuck (pun entirely intended )

EDIT: Well, mini crisis averted. I managed to finally pry the stupid piece off with only a small crack in one of the corners that I'm confident I can repair with either some epoxy or silicone. But now it looks like I'm going to be scraping silicone off the glass for the rest of my natural born life... *sigh* Any tips for removing old silicone besides good old fashioned elbow grease? Will Rubbing alcohol, or maybe acetone speed up the process? I've got plenty of time, but man this job sucks


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Just realized I forgot to give an update on my recent purchases:

I got myself a 100W heater yesterday. It looked like a quality heater, though I forget the brand so I'll post it later. I also found the API freshwater master test kit on sale so I picked that up. Still having a hard time finding the API gh/kh kit... anyone know where I might have the best luck finding it without resorting to buying online? Will a LFS be more likely to have it in stock? Everywhere I've looked so far have been chain pet stores.

At home depot, I've found myself some sand. Actually, I bought 2 different kinds. The first kind was quickcrete medium sand in a brown paper bag, 50lbs. The second kind is quickcrete all purpose sand in a plastic bag, 50lbs. The all purpose sand is much more corse and seems to be a mixture of different grains - from fine grain, to what looks like really tiny pebbles. Its my first choice because I think it will look good in the tank, but I was worried about the finer particles getting washed away leaving me with just the larger particles, so I wasn't sure if I would have enough sand, or if what remained after washing would actually be too coarse almost like aquarium gravel. So I bought the medium sand as a backup - more uniform and clean looking. I'll use it if I end up disliking the multipurpose sand, or perhaps I'll mix the two types together to get a little better look. I won't know until I start washing.

Speaking of washing, I bought some buckets. 3 of them . Should be enough to wash all 100lbs of sand if I need to without mixing the sand up, and then I'll have some buckets for water changes.

Still need some ammonia... walmart had some, but it was full of surfactants. The home depot I went to didn't have any. I have two different local hardware shops to try out that are actually ace hardwares. They aren't full ace hardwares though - just local shops, so idk if they will have the ammonia I'm looking for. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

I'm also SERIOUSLY thinking about trying to make a 3d DIY background since I have the top off the tank. Only problem is that it seems like more of an artistic skill, and I am not at ALL artistic. Something I'm going to have to think about in the next week or so while I'm waiting for my filters to ship.


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## Demasonian (Oct 23, 2005)

> P.S. what is the orange and black fish in your avatar? My wifes favorite color is orange, so an orange fish might be just as good as a "steelers" fish for getting my wife more excited about the fish tank.


Tropheus sp. black (Bemba) - http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... hp?id=1846

A 55 is a little small for Tropheus (recommended minimum is a 75 gallon), but when you inevitably start thinking about a second, larger tank  , Tropheus are an extremely rewarding fish to keep. Great colour, personality and colony behaviour.

For backgrounds, if you have some cash and don't want to chance your own artistic creation, try Aquaterra - http://www.aquaterra-intl.com/gallery.html

I have one in my 75 that I'm very happy with:


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Thanks. I'll keep that species in mind if/when I upgrade to a bigger tank. Seems like my saulosi only tank idea isn't going to fly on the homefront... I told my wife I wanted to do that and showed her the previously posted pic off the all saulosi tank and the first thing she said was "I thought you were going to get me a steelers fish..." *sigh* She also said that something orange would work too. Maybe I'll reconsider yellow labs again... but I just know I won't be able to tell the sexes apart, and I don't really want to handle them to vent them... maybe if I can rely on a LFS to pick me out 1 male and 3 females, but then I'm spending more money to buy larger fish. *sigh*. Back to the profiles section to try to figure something out. Maybe there is a suitably colored hap I could safely add in with my planned mbunas...

And I've already changed my mind and given up on the idea of a 3D background, either DIY or otherwise. I started thinking space was already at a premium in my 55g tank, so it would not be worth it IMO to further reduce tank space for cosmetic reasons only. I'll probably just go with the plain black background like I was planning on before.

Couple updates: found an ace hardware with the janitorial strength ammonia, so I picked some up. Decided to just go with Seachem Prime for my dechlor water conditioner. Found a 325mL bottle for 12 bucks. Don't know if it was the best deal or not, but it says it can treat 3250 gallons, which would give me 60 full tank changes. Thats enough to last me >2 years doing 50% water changes every week, and >5 years if I can do 20% water changes weekly. So I'm not really worried about the cost in the long run... If I ever upgrade to a larger tank, or keep multiple tanks, then maybe it will be worth it to find a better deal. For now, this will more than suffice.

I think I finally figured out where I'm going to pick up my deco rocks... there is a dog-friendly beach on lake erie on the west side of cleveland where my wife and I have taken our dog a couple times. We haven't been there yet this year or I probably would have remembered it earlier, but I seem to remember it being extremely rocky with rocks that will just about be the perfect size for my 55g tank. I'm trying to convince the wife to take a trip out there this evening with the dog, with my ulterior motive being to collect a bunch of rocks . I'll just bring a spare rubbermaid container to fill up a couple times probably to make sure I collect enough rocks. Its a public "beach" (not really much of a beach), but it is not patrolled or regulated, so I think its safe to take rock from there without it being a legal issue.

Onto another question... despite how everyone here seems to have no problem using home depot sands, when I went to pick up my dechlor, the guy at the fish store started warning me about the sand leaching phosphates into my aquarium. He recommended me at least getting a phosphate water test kit, if not getting sand that was specially purposed for aquariums. I suspect he was simply trying to get me to buy more stuff i.e. the phosphate test kit and/or expensive LFS aquarium sand, but I still worry nonetheless.

First off, is there any truth to the phosphate claim leeching from the sand, and how dangerous is phosphate to the fish? I'm guessing that the answer is that if there are phosphates being leeched into the water, they're either not at a harmful concentration and/or they'll be removed by the water changes. Is it even worth it to buy the $10 test kit?

Finally, my filters haven't shipped yet . Got them on ebay from a store, not an individual. They say they ship monday through fridays, and orders received after 1 will ship on the enxt shipping day. I paid for the filters on friday evening, money was withdrew from my account on monday, and so far today I haven't gotten an email notifying me that my filters have shipped, and the ebay page does not list the filters as shipped. Is it too soon to start sending emails to this place asking about it?  At the latest, the filters should ship today, so if I'm not notified by tonight or tomorrow morning, i'll definately have to send an email wondering whats up. I've never bought anything off of ebay before, but the seller had 99.7% positive feedback and had their own ebay store section, so I was hoping I wouldn't have any problems... am I worrying prematurely?

Plan for tonight - at least one of these 4 jobs should get done today :
1: Collect Rocks
2: Finish scraping silicone and reattach plastic frame to the top of my tank
3: Wash/bleach rocks, start washing sand
4: Clean aquarium hood, make sure both light fixtures are working (I have 2 24" fixtures with my hood). I'll need to get at least 1 new aquarium bulb... only 1 lit when I plugged them in to test


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

I now have rocks! Lessoned learn: rocks are heavy! Hauled these bad boys up a flight of ~50 stairs and then across 100yds of sidewalk before sumping them in the back of my car. Next time, I'll make more than 1 trip, instead of having to stop every 20 yds for a break. I figured I hauled close to 200lbs of rock in my rubbermaid container 

Thought you guys would like to see a picture. Here are some rocks. Nice flat ones for stacking even 










Anyone know anything about phosphates and home depot sand? LFS guy seemed to think I should be concerned about phosphates if I used home depot sand...


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## justinf67 (Jul 19, 2009)

I used pool filter sand from home depot, and my setup is fine. been running for about 8 months. if i recall correctly, it contains trace amounts of phosphates, which are not harmful. and even so, with regular water changes, u remove it anyway. He wanted you to buy the expensive sand from him. and the phosphate tester is overkill. u dont have a saltwater tank, lol...


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## Tshethar (Jul 20, 2009)

Given the number of folks on here who are using play sand--myself included--I doubt it's anything to worry too much about, but I would be interested in hearing if anyone else has looked into this.

I just had someone who used to work for a LFS (though a good one) tell me (based on what he learned at the store) that the play sand available locally here was high in silicates. Main issue with both phosphates and silicates is that they can cause algae blooms, with excessive algae growth mainly being a problem if you're keeping a marine reef tank. I'm personally not worried about this issue for my cichlid tank--and I don't think you should be, either--but I am curious as to whether people have tested this to be the case with play sand or not.

The worst case scenario might be some stubborn cloudy water and a bit more green on the glass and rocks than one might prefer. I guess if that became a problem, and the play sand really was high in phosphates and/or silicates, then changing it out might be cheaper than buying a UV sterilizer... but until somebody on here tells me otherwise, I'm a little skeptical.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

lfs will tell you stuff to make you buy what they carry, though i hear pool filter sand is a better option than play sand, i tend to go with the less inert stuff, i like calcite in my substrate, it's good for the fishes

it's near impossible to keep up with all the posts going on in this thread, but i will say keep tropheus with tropheus, they come from a different lake than the fish you are looking into

api is a great test kit, but, you need to shake the nitrate bottles more than they advise for better accuracy, i shake the bottle #2 for a minimum 1 min as opposed to the 30 sec they suggest. and i would honestly shake all bottles vigorously before testing

let me tell you a little secret as a geologist i can promise you that silicates are the most common minerals on earth, they are everywhere, in fact silica sand is the most inert and harmless substance on earth, it exists in every body of water on earth, rain weathers it off the rocks in mountains rivers carry it to the oceans then the oceans push it onto beaches or it just ends up sitting on the ocean floor and eventually gets drilled into for oil, those rocks you picked up are all full of silicates, phyllosilicates to be exact, which is basically mica, which is also in granite(the rocks that were originally in the mountains), most of what they sell in thos bags in the lfs are just larger less weathered forms of the tiny little sand particles you get elsewhere

read in the library the articles about substrates, they are pretty good at describing the pros and cons of each type, then make your decision


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

Rhinox said:


> Thanks. I'll keep that species in mind if/when I upgrade to a bigger tank. Seems like my saulosi only tank idea isn't going to fly on the homefront... I told my wife I wanted to do that and showed her the previously posted pic off the all saulosi tank and the first thing she said was "I thought you were going to get me a steelers fish..." *sigh* She also said that something orange would work too. Maybe I'll reconsider yellow labs again... but I just know I won't be able to tell the sexes apart, and I don't really want to handle them to vent them... maybe if I can rely on a LFS to pick me out 1 male and 3 females, but then I'm spending more money to buy larger fish. *sigh*. Back to the profiles section to try to figure something out. Maybe there is a suitably colored hap I could safely add in with my planned mbunas...
> 
> And I've already changed my mind and given up on the idea of a 3D background, either DIY or otherwise. I started thinking space was already at a premium in my 55g tank, so it would not be worth it IMO to further reduce tank space for cosmetic reasons only. I'll probably just go with the plain black background like I was planning on before.
> 
> ...


 Most of those lights have fuses in them. Just something to check before buying new bulbs.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

> He wanted you to buy the expensive sand from him. and the phosphate tester is overkill. u dont have a saltwater tank, lol...


Thats what I was thinking, but I just wanted to ask around. Thanks.



> The worst case scenario might be some stubborn cloudy water and a bit more green on the glass and rocks than one might prefer. I guess if that became a problem, and the play sand really was high in phosphates and/or silicates, then changing it out might be cheaper than buying a UV sterilizer... but until somebody on here tells me otherwise, I'm a little skeptical.


I suppose I'll just monitor the tank while I'm cycling and if there is too much algae growing, I'll have time to change out the substrate.



> it's near impossible to keep up with all the posts going on in this thread, but i will say keep tropheus with tropheus, they come from a different lake than the fish you are looking into
> 
> api is a great test kit, but, you need to shake the nitrate bottles more than they advise for better accuracy, i shake the bottle #2 for a minimum 1 min as opposed to the 30 sec they suggest. and i would honestly shake all bottles vigorously before testing


Thanks for the tip on the test kit procedure. I'll be trying them out for the first time soon.

In addition to the api kit, I bought a tetra kit that tests for gh/kh since I couldn't find the api gh/kh kit locally. It looks like it also uses drops - no strips. Anyone ever use the tetra kit?

Also, thanks for the tips on the tropheus, but I wasn't actually planning on keeping them  I mentioned pseudotropheus saulosi, which are indeed malawi mbuna like all the other fish I'm thining about 



> Most of those lights have fuses in them. Just something to check before buying new bulbs.


Thanks for the tip. I'll be sure to check. My hood utilizes two 2' lights - I'll just switch the bulbs and plug them both in, and I'll know whether its the bulb or the fuse based on which light lights up after I switch them.

If I do end up needing new bulbs, any suggestions for lighting?

In other news, I've been having some new ideas on the potential stock list. As much as I like the saulosi, I'm just having too much trouble getting the color variations I want. So I'm thinking about this:

Pseudotropheus socolofi
Labidochromis Caeruleus
something else...

So I'll still get my blue with the socolofi. The labs might pass for my wife's "steelers fishes". I also like how the labs and socolofi's color scheme compliment each other - solid coloring with darker bar on the fins.

So now I'm searching for a 3rd species that is neither blue, nor yellow. Ideas? Ideally, I'd like to find something bright red (all primary colors red, yellow, and blue), or something green (yellow + blue), but those colors don't exist in mbunas or I just haven't found any. I'd also be ok with black, silver, white (not albino please), purple, pumpkin orange (not goldfish orange) - basically any color thats not going to make the tank look too unbalanced towards blue or yellow.

Thanks again to everyone still offering me help. I realize I write a lot, but thats only because I'm excited to get into the hobby. I'm anxious to get going, but I realize I'll benefit in the long run to take my time to get it right. Typing here is a good outlet for my anxiety (and its not helping that my filters still haven't shipped yet and the company hasn't responded to my email either!)


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## Demasonian (Oct 23, 2005)

> So now I'm searching for a 3rd species that is neither blue, nor yellow. Ideas? Ideally, I'd like to find something bright red (all primary colors red, yellow, and blue), or something green (yellow + blue), but those colors don't exist in mbunas or I just haven't found any. I'd also be ok with black, silver, white (not albino please), purple, pumpkin orange (not goldfish orange) - basically any color thats not going to make the tank look too unbalanced towards blue or yellow.


Hmmm. Not much in the way of red or green among mbuna, as you've already discovered. I remember going through the same dilemma when building my first mbuna tank. Wanted a rainbow of colour in the tank...What I discovered, though, is that a simpler colour scheme was more appealing than a varied one. The rainbow I had was almost distracting. A collection of blue and yellow fish gives your tank a more coherent, almost saltwater look. Personal opinions vary, but that was my experience.

That said, for orange, try some Red Zebras (redxred variant if you want to keep the blue tones down): http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... hp?id=1730

For purple or black, Ps. Acei Ngara or Jtunji would work well and they're an easy going fish for mbuna.

For pale blue, white, there's Ps. Polit: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... php?id=914


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Thanks for those suggestions. When I first decided I was going to set up my tank, I never imagined I would be spending so much time just trying to decide which fish I wanted to put in it. :fish:

That being said, I think I might go with these 3 species, 4 or 5 of each, trying for 1 male of each:

Pseudotropheus socolofi 
Labidochromis Caeruleus
Iodotropheus sprengerae

That will give me 3 distinctly colored fish I would be satisfied with, and all 3 should be easy enough to find as they're some of the more popular cichlids.

However, after looking through the profiles I found a species that I would absolutely love to get my hands on. These guys:









Gephyrochromis sp. "Zebroides" (Gome)

I think they would look great with yellow labs and socolofi

However, problem is they seem kinda rare, which I don't get because the fish is absolutely gorgeous. Think I'd have any chance at all locating some of these without breaking the bank? Where would I begin to look?


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## Acorn27 (Sep 1, 2009)

Hi Rhinox,

I just wanted to personally thank you for starting this thread. And from a fellow engnieering mind, I appreciate your well-thought out questions. I'm an "over thinker" too.

I'm in very much the same situation as you, a newbie trying to get going. However I did some things before I learned some of the things in this thread (like mixing incompatable fish) So much to read and learn, but enjoyable. You are even looking at the same stocking list as I am.

You can guarantee I'm harvesting as much info from this as you are.

Thanks to everyone for the great info, I'm sure others are learning a great deal also.


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

[/quote]If I do end up needing new bulbs, any suggestions for lighting?[/quote]

I use t5ho lights on most of my tanks but the one tank I do have with regular lights they are 30 watt spectrum 5 bulbs. Kind if gives a dark look to the tank but still shows the fish well which is what I was going for on this particular setup.

This is a realistic picture meaning no flash or camera enhancements(this is what it really looks like)










As far as stocking I like the mix of hongi,yellow labs,red zebra,afra all male.....they would just inbreed anyway.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

now if you want some green or red try a single victorian mostly the sp 44 red tail, they can handle themselves with mbuna or look at some haps for those colors, they can hold up with mbuna


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Acorn: thanks for stopping by . I'm glad others are finding this thread as helpful as I am.

eddy: nice looking tank! Oscars, right? I like oscars, but my wife thinks they're ugly . Someday I can see myself having a huge tank for some oscars . Regarding bulbs, I think the ones that were on the tank before were sort of bright, very white, and clean looking. I kinda liked that look, but I have no idea what they're called in order to buy more. I've seen some blue lights in stores... I'm wondering if I'd like that look. I've also seen natural sunlight bulbs, but I wasn't sure if they'd promote algae growth, and I'm not sure I want algae all over my tank.

cjacob: thanks for the suggestions. I haven't really looked at other cichlid varients besides mbuna's yet, but I will be sure to give them a look. Considering I'm 100% new to cichlids and the hobby in general, I wasn't sure I'd be ready to deal with a mixed tank right from the get go. I'll look through the haps first because at least they're still malawi, but I'll probably only get some if I really can't settle on something all mbuna.

And now for the general update. Yesterday evening, I siliconed the top back onto my fish tank. My first time working with silicone, and I believe it will end up being a success. Only problem is I filled the grove on the plastic frame piece with WAY too much silicone  . When I pressed it down onto the top of the tank, a bunch of silicone squeezed out on the inside. What I did was use my finger to create a fillet around the inside rim with the excess silicone. Fortunately, none of the silicone squeezed out on the outside of the frame, so it won't mess with the looks of the tank at all. One thing for sure, I shouldn't have to worry about the seal coming loose any time soon  :fish:

Here's a pic of the tank with the silicone curing... I knew my old college textbooks would come in handy 










My rocks are currently in a plastic swimming pool soaking in bleach. I spread them all off on my driveway first, and hosed them all down with my water hose. I didn't scrub them, but I'm sort of wishing I would have. Anyways, I've noticed some of the rocks look a little rusty... I did the lemon juice test (no fizzing), and I tried sticking a magnet to the rocks (no attraction), so I think they're all ok to use. I'll probably avoid using the worst looking ones anyways just to be safe. Here's a couple pics of what I'm talking about... what do you think?

















This is probably the rustiest looking rock I picked up. It looks worse wet than dry, which is probably why I didn't notice it when I picked it out.


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

Looks good. I have sealed more tanks than I can count and I still have silicone squeeze out like that no big deal.

I have the opposite going on with the oscars. I rescued them from a bad situation and was planning on getting them back to good health and finding them a suitable home and well my wife got attached to them so it is looking like they will be with me for life.

The light thing is all a matter of opinion so it is what you like. Now you know 30 watt spectrum 5 lights are not what you want lol.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

there is a big difference between oxidized rocks, and rocks with actual iron in it that can leach


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

is that an aqueon heater? if so, return it


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

and back to your phosphate question, the biggest issue i have heard of with phosphate is that it's algae food, but they make filter material that will take care of phosphate if it ever become an issue


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

> The light thing is all a matter of opinion so it is what you like. Now you know 30 watt spectrum 5 lights are not what you want lol.


Well actually I do think it looks nice, but with all the rock I'll be putting in my tank, I think I'll want something to light it up a little more, as the rocks will do a god job absorbing light and casting shadows.



> there is a big difference between oxidized rocks, and rocks with actual iron in it that can leach


ok... so you're saying you think my rocks are fine then?



> is that an aqueon heater? if so, return it


yeah its an aqueon... whats wrong with it? From what I've gathered from researching online, heater brand doesn't really matter as everyone has had good and bad experiences with all brands. What makes aqueons so bad?

If I do have to return it, the store I bought it from also sells stealth heaters, and everyone on the boards here seems to rave about them.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

thats what i would suggest, it seems like going the route of a heater with a temp setting rather than a high low setting is good, i bought an aqueon once, never heated anything, i've seen a lot of people have issues with them, i had better experiences with topfin from petsmart and they're cheaper, but what i gather you can actually get away with a lower watt heater when you use one like a stealth and you burn less energy and it's better for the heater... that's what i hear at least

yes i think your rocks are fine, the real problem would be finding something like fools gold, with most sedimentary rocks you should not encounter anything harmful to the fish


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

cjacob316 said:


> thats what i would suggest, it seems like going the route of a heater with a temp setting rather than a high low setting is good, i bought an aqueon once, never heated anything, i've seen a lot of people have issues with them, i had better experiences with topfin from petsmart and they're cheaper, but what i gather you can actually get away with a lower watt heater when you use one like a stealth and you burn less energy and it's better for the heater... that's what i hear at least
> 
> yes i think your rocks are fine, the real problem would be finding something like fools gold, with most sedimentary rocks you should not encounter anything harmful to the fish


Thanks for the help, both with the heaters and the rocks.

The aqueon I bought is 100W and it actually does have a temperature setting, not just a high/low. It was actually the more expensive of the 3 heater brands I was comparing in the store. My other options at that store were the stealth, and a Marineland heater that was a bigger size for the same wattage. The 3 were probably within ~$10 of each other for 100W, but the aqueon was the most expensive, and hey, it says it has a lifetime warranty :thumb: :roll:  But if its really that bad, i would have no problem returning it... I'm not attached to it.

I'm glad my rocks are probably fine. Still though, if I take a sample of water to my LFS after I put the rocks in and let the tank cycle for a month or two, will they be able to test for heavy metals? Actually, would a LFS be able to test for phosphates as well if I think I have a problem with my sand?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

yeah they can definately test for phosphates, not sure about heavy metals


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## Demasonian (Oct 23, 2005)

I wouldn't worry too much about phosphates. Or heaters either...I personally only use visitherm's but even they have been known to have issues.

On the rocks, don't worry about not scrubbing...A good hose down should do fine. On my first setup, I scrubbed and boiled my rocks, much to the chagrin of my wife...The condo smelled pretty ripe for a week or so...On the following setup, a quick wash and into the tank, no issues...Same process for all tanks thereafter.

I would hesitate on the rock pictured above. A little bit of rust coloured discolouration isn't a problem, but if it's that much, why risk it? Especially, if it's only that one rock.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

> I would hesitate on the rock pictured above. A little bit of rust coloured discolouration isn't a problem, but if it's that much, why risk it? Especially, if it's only that one rock.


right thats what I was thinking. Anyways, its not just that one rock, but thats the one that looks the worst. I think I might have plenty of rocks that don't have that coloration at all, so I will avoid using all of them if I can. I'm really trying to avoid another rock hunting excavation, but at the same time I don't want to do anything to hurt all my fish before I even add water to my tank.



> On the rocks, don't worry about not scrubbing...A good hose down should do fine. On my first setup, I scrubbed and boiled my rocks, much to the chagrin of my wife...The condo smelled pretty ripe for a week or so...On the following setup, a quick wash and into the tank, no issues...Same process for all tanks thereafter.


haha... I thought about boiling, but my wife wouldn't have liked that too much either. In the end, I decided bleach should get the job done. Just about to go dump the bleach water and soak in plain tap water with some dechlor in it now.

and my filters are here  vendor apologized for the delay and gave me an upgrade to 1-day shipping - a big bonus considering my shipping was already free. I feel like I got a great deal on these filters and don't regret my decision at all. Now if only the vinegar smell will go away in my tank, I should be able to fill it and get it cycling by sunday


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

New update:

I had to buy new light fixtures for my hood. 1 of them was completely shot. I took it apart and messed with it for a while, but I couldn't get it to light. I decided to replace both because the white plastic inside the lighting fixture is suffering from dryrot and is crumbling and falling apart, so its only a matter of time before the other bit the dust as well. Briefly I considered using this as an opportunity (excuse) to construct a whole new hood, but I figured that would end up costing me more in the long run anyways.

My silicone resealing of the top plastic frame piece is holding well. I was hoping to be able to fill the tank and get it cycling this weekend, but I'm still smelling vinegar mostly from one of the corners where I had the most excess. I'll be too busy tomorrow night to mess with it, so by tuesday night I should be good to fill. My rocks are good to go now, and my sand is already washed and sitting in a bucket of water in the garage.

My filters look HUGE hanging off the back of my 55g tank which is now looking puny . I'm going to have to cut up one of my hoods to get my filter placed where I want it, but thats fine because the hood sat for so long on one corner that it was bent and wouldn't sit flat anyways. i'll end up cutting off the bent section, so thats a plus, but I'll be leaving a 8.5" x 3" gap on the back of the tank that won't be covered by the hood. Hope thats not big enough for the fishies to take notice and try to jump out 

Still thinking about how I'm goingto go about stocking this thing once its ready. Took a trip out to somthing fishy inc. nearby to look around and see whats available. The owner was definitely very knowledgeable and had a great little shop, but unfortunately I didn't walk out of there with any better idea of what I want to put in my tank.

Actually, I'm going the other way - I'm wondering if I could go with an all-male peacock stocking. Anyone have any tips for doing that? Is it easier/cheaper to start with fry and thin the herd to dominant males, or to add adults from the start? Furthermore, whether adults or fry, I don't think I can afford to buy my entire stock list at once... whats the best way to add a new male peacock to a tank full of adult male peacocks down the road? Also, how many male peacocks can comfortably live in a 48x12 55g aquarium, and what species would I be able to mix together with the most success in this manner?

So, any ideas for an all-male peacock tank? as always, thanks for the help.


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

Rhinox said:


> New update:
> 
> I had to buy new light fixtures for my hood. 1 of them was completely shot. I took it apart and messed with it for a while, but I couldn't get it to light. I decided to replace both because the white plastic inside the lighting fixture is suffering from dryrot and is crumbling and falling apart, so its only a matter of time before the other bit the dust as well. Briefly I considered using this as an opportunity (excuse) to construct a whole new hood, but I figured that would end up costing me more in the long run anyways.
> 
> ...


You didn't pay ridiculous pet store prices for light fixtures did you? You can get t5ho 50/50 lights on ebay for a similar price.

I don't have alot of experience with peacocks but i did keep a tank of them once and I had trouble getting more than one too color at once. I picked up 10 fry and grew them out. I sold my dominant male hoping more would color and one did then I donated the tank and fish to my mother in laws day care. Now there is one beautiful fish,one semi colored fish, and 7 ugly ones.

I also had a single peacock in a mixed african tank that colored up nicely...They are beautiful if/when they color.

There are females in there which might not be helping maybe someone with more experience can help but from my experience it takes quite awhile with peacocks to even get color (unless you want to spend quite a bit on mature fish).

My next african tank will be Mbuna for sure.

Here are pictures of mine. The blue one was one of the fry group and the red one was the single. To get a tank full of fish like these or better it would either take a pretty good chunk of cash or a significantly long wait according to my experience. Like I said before though it is a matter of preference I just thought I would share my experience.


















I wish I had a better picture too show you the abundance of rather ugly sub dominant males....you can see a little bit of one in the background of the last picture. You might have better luck if you go with all totally different colors.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

if one rock is too bad to put in the tank then all the rocks are too bad to put into the tank, the rocks are all from the same formation meaning they all have the same mineral content, all the coloring means is the degree of oxidation for each individual sample, if you're afraid of iron in that one rock then you should be afraid of iron in all of your rocks <---- geologist speaking...we know rocks


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

> You didn't pay ridiculous pet store prices for light fixtures did you? You can get t5ho 50/50 lights on ebay for a similar price.


No, I bought online. I ended up getting the same light fixtures that came with the hood - 2x 24" all-glass aquarium fluorescent strip lights.



> I don't have alot of experience with peacocks but i did keep a tank of them once and I had trouble getting more than one too color at once. I picked up 10 fry and grew them out. I sold my dominant male hoping more would color and one did then I donated the tank and fish to my mother in laws day care. Now there is one beautiful fish,one semi colored fish, and 7 ugly ones.


How many different species did you have in your tank? Maybe all the ugly ones are just females? If not, thats a shame that it would be so difficult to achieve an all-male peacock setup... The library article sort of made it sound like it would be pretty easy.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

my tank is all male peacocks haps and mbuna, you just have to get the right fish together to make it work, and not just the right species, different fish have different temperments

with peacocks try to keep fish of different colors, like one yellow, one red, one orange especially witht the yellow

i think a ruby red, benga, red shoulder, swallowtail, and flametail would make an amazing looking tank, they should all be fne together and if you want you can add a victorian like the sp 44 red tail


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

Rhinox said:


> > You didn't pay ridiculous pet store prices for light fixtures did you? You can get t5ho 50/50 lights on ebay for a similar price.
> 
> 
> No, I bought online. I ended up getting the same light fixtures that came with the hood - 2x 24" all-glass aquarium fluorescent strip lights.
> ...


 I just had 1 species. 10 from the same batch. The ugly ones were not all female they were just sub dominant males and females.

Don't get me wrong it can work and it can be beautiful. I was just letting you know there is more too it than just getting some male peacocks. You gotta get the right fish and have lots of patients.

It might take you two years to get a all colored all male peacock tank unless you spend alot of money buying mature colored fish and even then you might have some setbacks.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Thanks eddy and jacob for the fish advice. I'll keep all that in mind when I'm ready to get some fish.

Right now I've got another problem I'm hoping I can get some help with. I filled my tank last night - rocks, quickcrete medium sand, and water. Added the dechlor, then worked on setting up the filtration. I put together my first AC110, followed all the directions, and then filled it with water and turned it on while it was on the high flow setting. After the priming finished, the filter started making a clicking noise from the motor/impeller area sounding like tapping a pen on a desk. When I slide the tube to the low flow setting, the clicking stops. I checked the impeller and it is clear and free spinning.

I left it on low and put the second filter together. When I turned it on, low and behold I have the exact same clicking noise when the flow is set to high, and it stops when the flow is set to low.



Has anyone ever experienced this before, and is there a way to remedy this problem? This is really frustrating and discouraging...


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## Demasonian (Oct 23, 2005)

Hmmm. Never with a brand new AC 110...Do you have the support piece on the bottom of the unit in place against the back of the aquarium glass?


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Demasonian said:


> Hmmm. Never with a brand new AC 110...Do you have the support piece on the bottom of the unit in place against the back of the aquarium glass?


Yeah, and I adjusted it to all the different settings to see if that would fix anything... no luck. I'm just frustrated because this is BOTH units that I purchased both making the clicking noises in the exact same way...

Reasearching a little on the internet, I've found a couple things that might be the problem:

1: sometimes the pumps start rotating in the wrong direction, and there are mechanical stops which are supposed to cause the pump to reverse direction. However, if this were the case, it would click regardless of what the flow setting was, and it would stop when the pump was rotating in the correct direction. Maybe I can try flipping the power cord around 

2: The filter may need to settle in - 1 user somewhere reported clicking for about a day, and afterwards it stopped. This could potentially be the problem - this morning after allowing the filters to run on low flow all night, I tried adjusting the flow. I was able to slide the tube approximately 1/4 of an inch before the clicking started. Last night, the tubes had to be pinned all the way to the low flow side to prevent the clicking. If I am able to adjust the tube for even more flow later today when I get home from work, I might just be able to wait it out.

3: dirty/damaged impeller - Some user somewhere reported clicking on a 6mo filter that was fixed after a thorough cleaning. However, my pump is (supposed to be) new. I examined the impeller on one of the units and it did not look dirty, so I don't think thats the problem. I examined the impeller at like 11PM last night and was getting tired and frustrated, so I probably didn't look at it closely enough to determine if there was any subtle damage or wear that could be causing problems, but I'm hesitant to call it a broken filter since both filters are clicking...

So right now, i'm hoping it is simply #2 and will resolve itself with time. Nonetheless, I'm going to call hagen in about an hour and ask them whats going on with their filters.


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

Rhinox said:


> Demasonian said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmm. Never with a brand new AC 110...Do you have the support piece on the bottom of the unit in place against the back of the aquarium glass?
> ...


 I would guess #2 but I got all mine used so *** never experienced that hpwever I think it is probably a good sign that both filters are doing it and it lessened overnight.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

I think I just had an epiphany...

When I assembled the filters, I placed the bio rings on the bottom and the sponge on top (not using the carbon. I read some users on this site found that setup worked a little better. I'm wondering if maybe the increase in flow from low to high is causing some of the bio rings to vibrate and bounce off of the sides of the filter?

I guess when I get home from work tonight I'll take out all the filter media and run the filters and see if that fixes the problem. If so, I'll have to put all the stuff back in in a way that makes sure the biorings won't be bouncing around.

If not, who knows what the problem is... the impeller speed is constant so if it were a problem with the impeller, it would be making the noise regardless of what setting the inlet tube is on, right? unless the increase in flow is exiting the impellers and causing them to bounce... this is very frustrating...

The only thing that makes sense is the biorings bouncing... thats got to be the problem... I can't imagine I was so unlucky to get 2 faulty pumps. I'll update later when I get a chance to try out my solution.


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

Rhinox said:


> I think I just had an epiphany...
> 
> When I assembled the filters, I placed the bio rings on the bottom and the sponge on top (not using the carbon. I read some users on this site found that setup worked a little better. I'm wondering if maybe the increase in flow from low to high is causing some of the bio rings to vibrate and bounce off of the sides of the filter?
> 
> ...


 Are your bio rings just in the loose? I'd just put the sponge on the bottom and rings on top like they are supposed to be. I kept a 120 clean with the exact same filters done that way for years.

You will get some water that is not going through the sponge but it will be going through the bioballs and that is how it is meant to work.

You will still easily be moveing your tank through the sponges at least 10 times an hour.

I put my sponges on the bottom and bio material on top in a filter bag or pantyhose. Then the bioballs will hold the bacteria and you can just spray your sponges out in the sink.

There is such a thing as too much mechanical filtration IMO. You want to do just enough to keep your water clear but no so much your filter clogs constantly.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

> Are your bio rings just in the loose? I'd just put the sponge on the bottom and rings on top like they are supposed to be. I kept a 120 clean with the exact same filters done that way for years.


No, they're in the mesh bag that came with the pump, but I didn't exactly pack them into the bags - I left them a little loose in order to make sure they spread out to cover the entire cavity.

I read that putting the bio rings on the bottom would allow more water to flow through the sponge. I'll switch them around when I get home and hopefully that will fix my clicking problem.



> There is such a thing as too much mechanical filtration IMO. You want to do just enough to keep your water clear but no so much your filter clogs constantly.


Nice to know... I've been thinking of maybe getting some floss material and cutting to fit to filter out some of the finer particles that the sponge might let pass through. I wasn't sure how well the sponge would work on its own.

First thing though... got to fix this clicking problem. Working on emailing Hagen since aparently there is no phone number to call from the US, even though the filter manual says to call. Only a canadian # and a UK #.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

urgh...

so its not the filter media casing the clicking. I figured out if I shine a flashlight through the housing, I can see the impeller and watch it bounce in time to the clicking. So far, the 2 solutions hagen gave me to try haven't fixed the problem (they had me check the installation of the U shaped inlet tube, and the square plate it fits into... did they think I wouldn't have tried that yet?)

And to think... all I wanted to do was something as simple and harmless of having a fishtank. And to top it off, I just noticed that the crack at the corner of the triangle flange part of the center brace has gotten bigger, and another crack has formed at the same spot on the same side of the tank but the opposite side of the flange... Should I be worried that my tank is tearing itself in half? I drew a rough ascii diagram of where the cracks are below. It is a top down view of the tank - top of the picture is the side of the frame, and the vertical column is the center brace and triangle flange.

```
Crack     Crack
______________________________
__________/       \_____________
          \       /
            \   /
             | |
             | |
```
So maybe I'm just not supposed to have a fish tank...


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

Rhinox said:


> urgh...
> 
> so its not the filter media casing the clicking. I figured out if I shine a flashlight through the housing, I can see the impeller and watch it bounce in time to the clicking. So far, the 2 solutions hagen gave me to try haven't fixed the problem (they had me check the installation of the U shaped inlet tube, and the square plate it fits into... did they think I wouldn't have tried that yet?)
> 
> ...


 I apologize for not suggesting this in the first place but those whole top pieces are only 15-20 $ for a 55. I really should have suggested that if your going to go through the trouble of removing it and it is cracked you should just get a new one.

At this point I think I would be trying some sort of glue/cement/epoxy


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

> I apologize for not suggesting this in the first place but those whole top pieces are only 15-20 $ for a 55. I really should have suggested that if your going to go through the trouble of removing it and it is cracked you should just get a new one.
> 
> At this point I think I would be trying some sort of glue/cement/epoxy


Yeah... I thought about that myself, and I even found the supplier, but I thought I could save the top and the crack wouldn't be that big of a deal... well, I bought some 5 minute epoxy and that didn't stick, and I spread some silicone on the underside of the crack and that doesn't seem to have held either. Now that one crack has opened up a little more and a second crack formed, I'm wishing I would have just bought a new frame piece...

So how worried should I be with the cracks where they are? what epoxy or cement would you recommend to stop the propagation of the cracks? I don't want to come home some day and find my aquarium spilled all over the living room floor, and I don't want to have to drain the tank and lose my fish and my cycle while I replace the top frame piece if the crack gets the whole way through... *sigh*

On the plus side, my new aquarium lights have arrived today and they look great, and I found a potential solution to my filter problem. Another member here who bought filters from the same online retailer had the same problems with 2 filters, and the problem was fixed when Hagen shipped new replacement impellers. Keeping my fingers crossed.


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

Rhinox said:


> > I apologize for not suggesting this in the first place but those whole top pieces are only 15-20 $ for a 55. I really should have suggested that if your going to go through the trouble of removing it and it is cracked you should just get a new one.
> >
> > At this point I think I would be trying some sort of glue/cement/epoxy
> 
> ...


 You could get you a piece of glass cut and silicone it to the top of both sides. Glass too glass right up underneath the frame. Silicone just doesn't work that great on plastic but it will work on glass.

Just drain your tank half way and put an air stone in it apply the glass and let it sit for 24 hours.. This is how alot of larger tanks are built. My 180 and my 150 are both braced with glass and silicone. (must use real glass)

You would still want to leave the center brace there for your lights/hood too sit on.

Here is a picture of the brace on my 150


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

I don't know if I like that solution either...

Any idea on where I can buy glass cut to the size I need? What about a glass dowel that could be easily hidden under the center brace instead of a flat piece of glass?

I think finding a cement or epoxt to seal and stop the propegation of the cracks would be quicker and easier, and cause me much less frustration. (i.e. I found working with silicone to be extremely frustrating)


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

Rhinox said:


> I don't know if I like that solution either...
> 
> Any idea on where I can buy glass cut to the size I need? What about a glass dowel that could be easily hidden under the center brace instead of a flat piece of glass?
> 
> I think finding a cement or epoxt to seal and stop the propegation of the cracks would be quicker and easier, and cause me much less frustration. (i.e. I found working with silicone to be extremely frustrating)


 Yeah I agree it would be much easier to cement or epoxy I just don't really have a suggestion for that. I'm sure it is possible I just don't know what kind to suggest.

If you were to use glass you would probably have to find a glass shop. Lowes and home depot cuts glass but in my area they don't have glass thick enough.

I was thinking while typing that and you know how hard would it be to remove a top frame you don't care about? At first I thought about how frustrating it would be to go through removing it again but really it would be pretty simple if breaking it doesn't matter.

Just rip that SOB off and put a new one on.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

> I was thinking while typing that and you know how hard would it be to remove a top frame you don't care about? At first I thought about how frustrating it would be to go through removing it again but really it would be pretty simple if breaking it doesn't matter.
> 
> Just rip that SOB off and put a new one on.


Well, theres 2 things: 1) scraping the silicone off the glass is the part that bothers me the most - its tedious, frustrating, not all that easy, and I get my fingers all cut up not from the blade itself that I'm using, but from the pressure of me pushing on the back side of the blade. And 2) I think my wife would kill me if I told her I was going to have to go through the whole speil of making the living room smell like vinegar again for another week .

Not to mention that I'd have to completely empty the tank of all the sand and rocks and water I've already got in it because inevitable I will have flakes of cured silicone that will drop into the tank and I'll want to make sure I get those out.

...

So I know to do this the right way I should just buy a new piece, but I think for now I'm just going to try the epoxy remedy again (maybe I'll find a piece of flat plastic I can epoxy over the crack to pride more surface area) and keep an eye on the crack for a while - this isn't the type of thing that is going to catastrophically fail overnight so as long as I'm keeping an eye on it and making sure the cracks don't get bigger I think this tank could survive until I convince my wife that we should get a bigger tank


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Update:

new impellers from hagen fixed my filter problem. no more rattling 

The new impellers are green plastic instead of white, seem a little stiffer, but the impeller arms are a few millimeters shorter :-? . I'm still not sold on the idea that the flow adjuster really does anything. The manual claims that there is 1/3 the flow if you set it to min flow, but I can't notice a difference in the amount of flow that spills over the spillway, or the waves/bubbles in the tank. I'm done worrying about it though.. .my filters are working on what seems to be full flow, and thats good enough for me.

I've mended the cracks in my hood with some 5 minute epoxy. For now, the epoxy is bonded, and the cracks are not getting any larger. We'll see how the hold up to the cyclic loads of changing water levels during water changes, but I'm confident that it will be just fine. On a similar note, my reseal of the top frame seems to be holding nicely and keeping water in the tank . I was worried because I had to cut some silicone out of the corners a couple inches down on the inside, and with all the talk about silicone not bonding to silicone, I was worried I could have a leak in the corners at the top. Well, I have the water level about as full as I could get it right now, and no water is escaping. I'm claiming success  (for now...)

With working filters, and confidence in my tank repairs, I've started my cycle just tonight. I started out by adding 2mL of 10% ammonia, let it circulate for about an hour, then tested my level. Came out to be about 1ppm. A quick calculation showed me that 2mL of 10% ammonia should create 1ppm in about 200L. Well, a 55g tank is like 210 liters, so subtract volume for rocks and substrate and maybe add a couple gallons hanging out in my filters and I suppose I'm pretty much right on with my test result and calculation. I was planning on cycling to 2ppm ammonia, so I added another 2mL which is currently circulating in the tank, and I'll check it before bed to confirm.

Which now gets me to the point where I can start imagine little fishies swimming around in my tank. I was messing around with a flashlight in te dark earlier shining it in the tank... my wife asked me what I was doing and I told her I was looking for fish . I also find that I don't mind staring at the tank for a few minutes despite the fact that there is nothing in there to look at besides my rocks.

Speaking of my rocks, I'm not entirely satisfied with my aquascaping just yet... When I collected my rocks, I collected a few "big" rocks and many more smaller rocks, with the idea that I could stack with the bigger rocks on the bottom. After stacking rocks, I've found that although my bigger rocks make a nice solid base, they're all pretty much covered by my sand. And then, there are just soooo many smaller rocks, and they were difficult to stack. I ended up not being able to use all the rocks I collected not because I ran out of room, but because if I'd have stacked any higher, I'd ave been afraid of a collapse. After placing them in the tank, I wish I'd have collected rocks all about the size of the biggest ones on the bottom. That would give me less rocks to worry about, and they'd be easier to stack. First nice day this fall I'm going to go out and try to collect more rocks, because once it gets cold, it will be impossible to go out and scavenge rocks, and I doubt any landscapers operate over winter either. I bet I could get my wife to buy me some Texas Holey Rock as a christmas present though 

Tomorrow I might post some pics of my rockwork to let you guys know what I'm dealing with. It doesn't look bad per se... just looks like a house of cards that is going to be unreasonable to remove and restack ever.

And so ends this update. Enjoy!


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

Rhinox said:


> Update:
> 
> new impellers from hagen fixed my filter problem. no more rattling
> 
> ...


 Did you decided to go with Mbuna now?


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

> Did you decided to go with Mbuna now?


Yeah I've pretty much decided to go with a half and half mix of yellow labs and maingano's, and maybe some sort of scavenger/algae eater.

Alternatively, I might go labs and socolofi (although I'm finding they're more aggressive), or labs and dems.

With any of the above, I might add in a few acei's as a third species, but we'll see.

Alternatively, part of me is entertaining the idea of going around to all the chain pet stores around and collecting a bunch of auratus and do an all auratus tank to give my wife her steeler's fish fix, and because I want to see what all the fuss about them is about . Actually, just kinda think the idea of experimenting with the setup would be kinda cool to see how auratus really interacts in groups when they're not trying to kill everything else in the tank. Maybe the answer is keeping them like they're a colony of dems, only with 1 male only.

We'll see though... gotta get through the cycle now first.


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

Rhinox said:


> > Did you decided to go with Mbuna now?
> 
> 
> Yeah I've pretty much decided to go with a half and half mix of yellow labs and maingano's, and maybe some sort of scavenger/algae eater.
> ...


 I like the yellow lab/Maingano.

I just set my african tank back up and am going with yellow labs,Maingano,and red zebras.

So far I have 7 maingano,7 red zebras,1 yellow lab all juvies,and one wild caught male yellow lab waiting too go in but he is mature so I'm letting the others grow a bit before he goes in.

Looks like I'll be setting up another african tank because I came across an albino malawi eye biter today that looked to good to pass up.

Here is a picture its kind of bare but might give you some ideas.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Thanks for the pic. I like your rockwork... what kind are they and where did you find them?

Here are the pics of my empty tank as promised. Not the best quality as they were taken on my cell phone, but not unbearable either. The water is actually quite clear although its hard to tell in the pic. I'll use a real camera when I actually have something to take a pic of 

Full Tank:









Left Side:









Center:









Right Side:









Forgive the lack of a background  I haven't taped my black background on yet. I had it held on by the filters just to see what it looked like, but I had to take it down when I changed the impellers. I don't think the rocks look horrible, but there are just too many and they are too small. If I ever had to remove them all, I'd never get them all back in with sand and water and fish in the tank.

I found a landscaping supply not to far from me that carries a bunch of rocks and I think I might give in and go purchase a couple hundred lbs. They have 2 varieties of boulder types, and a bunch of variety of flat types, but I'm not sure which of the two types that would be easier to stack and maintain. I'm going to start another thread in the deco section about it with pictures in a little while to get the community opinion.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

oh my... now this is tempting...

I'm going to have to have some self control to avoid trolling craigslist when I'm bored.

http://cleveland.craigslist.org/for/1394574668.html

I can just about keep whatever I'd want in an 8'x3'x18" 275g tank couldn't I, and the price is alright as well. 

It'd give me excuses to spend more time in my basement...

My wife would not approve...



Is it sad that I'm searching for bigger tanks before I even have fish in my first one yet? Well, if my 55g is successful for a while, my wife might let me get something bigger next year


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## Rick_Lindsey (Aug 26, 2002)

Wow, your impulse control must be better than mine.

-Rick (The armchair aquarist, who's fish budget is such that he doesn't even look at craigslist these days to avoid crying over deals that he can't buy)


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

Rhinox said:


> oh my... now this is tempting...
> 
> I'm going to have to have some self control to avoid trolling craigslist when I'm bored.
> 
> ...


 Yeah that is one of them deals you just buy now and think about it later and if later it doesn't work out it can be sold at a good profit.

That is probably the best deal you will ever find.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

> Yeah that is one of them deals you just buy now and think about it later and if later it doesn't work out it can be sold at a good profit.
> 
> That is probably the best deal you will ever find.


wow... that is not helping me not go buy it 

I could spend the winter building a stand for it, probably have it ready for fish by next spring.

Wife is really not going to like the idea of a huge tank like that though... But it can go in the basement which we barely use right now anyways - plenty of room and a nice solid concrete floor... But she'll mention how much trouble it will be to move when we inevitably move from where we're living now - worry about that when the time comes? And if I never do anything with it, I could probably sell it for at least as much as I'd buy it for anyways, right?

Well, couldn't hurt to send an email to the seller


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

Rhinox said:


> > Yeah that is one of them deals you just buy now and think about it later and if later it doesn't work out it can be sold at a good profit.
> >
> > That is probably the best deal you will ever find.
> 
> ...


 Acrylic is not nearly as hard to move.

Take a look here
http://www.glasscages.com/?sAction=ViewCat&lCatID=64


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## aaronjunited (Sep 29, 2009)

What an interesting read, *** just read the whole thread in about 3 hours. I'm a slow reader. And what a time youve had mate gathering all your stuff for the new tank. Your tank looks really nice by the way mate. Learnt alot reading though here.

I admire when people post up long posts and you have to sit and read through it and all the replies.
Good luck with the tank mate.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

aaronjunited said:


> What an interesting read, I've just read the whole thread in about 3 hours. I'm a slow reader. And what a time youve had mate gathering all your stuff for the new tank. Your tank looks really nice by the way mate. Learnt alot reading though here.
> 
> I admire when people post up long posts and you have to sit and read through it and all the replies.
> Good luck with the tank mate.


I'm glad you enjoy 

Well, finished rescaping my tank, and taped the background up. Added ~350lbs of granite boulders , took out 20lbs of sand leaving 30lbs in the tank, fit some lighting grid under the new rocks, and attached panty hose prefilters to my HOB intakes, which double as camo - they blend in better with the BG now.

Let me know what you think  I'm really happy with the new look, and definately intend on leaving it like this.

Before:









After:









Nothing to do now but wait for my tank to cycle then add fish.


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

That is much better......looks nice. Careful that those panty hose don't clog your intake. Some sort of sponge would be better.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

eddy said:


> That is much better......looks nice. Careful that those panty hose don't clog your intake. Some sort of sponge would be better.


yeah I think you might be right. Already there is a layer of something stuck to the inlets just from clearing the water after the rescaping. On the plus side though, they will definitely keep the sand out of my filters. Wouldn't a sponge be just as likely to clog the intake though?


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

Rhinox said:


> eddy said:
> 
> 
> > That is much better......looks nice. Careful that those panty hose don't clog your intake. Some sort of sponge would be better.
> ...


 No not really a sponge is thicker and will absorb water even when clogged while panty hose once they are clogged that is it.

My suggestion is more based on my experience with both rather than reasoning if that makes sense.

If you remember earlier when I told you there is such a thing as too much mechanical filtration? This is a good example of what I was talking about. While the panty hose catch every thing it does not work good because they get clogged way easy.

Put some bio material in the panty hose and set them on top of the sponge allowing water too flow through,around and over them.

While running a little sand through your filters is not good running them dry is even worse. I would not put anything in front of your filter motor(although I have before) just turn them off if your going to stir the sand. Once the sand settles the first time it should not be much of a problem.

If I have trouble getting my sand too settle I use a fine air driven sponge filter until it clears.


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## aaronjunited (Sep 29, 2009)

where have you put the panty hose exactly? over the tube that take the water??? to collect debris


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Thanks eddy for the advice. Now that the water is cleared, I think I might just take the panty hose off and leave the tubes bare again. The sand is thick and settles quickly, so the only way sand is getting up there anyways is if the fish decide its fun to spit sand into the intake 



> where have you put the panty hose exactly? over the tube that take the water??? to collect debris


Yeah but my intention was to just stop sand getting up in the impeller but as eddy said the panty hose is too fine and gets clogged too easily so I'm going to take it off.


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## aaronjunited (Sep 29, 2009)

I see ok Rhino mate.


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## Yajna (Oct 20, 2009)

How about an update, Rhinox? As a fellow noob, I really enjoyed reading this thread.

You said two things that made me laugh out loud because they ring so true...
1) "And to think... all I wanted to do was something as simple and harmless as having a fishtank."
2) "Is it sad that I'm searching for bigger tanks before I even have fish in my first one yet?"

Hope things have been progressing well. An update would be great.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Yajna said:


> How about an update, Rhinox? As a fellow noob, I really enjoyed reading this thread.
> 
> You said two things that made me laugh out loud because they ring so true...
> 1) "And to think... all I wanted to do was something as simple and harmless as having a fishtank."
> ...


Things are progressing well. I haven't posted here in a while because A) I've been waiting around for the tank to cycle, and B) I've been asking any questions that arise in new threads so as to hope to get more and better answers without people thinking they have to read the whole thread here.

Basically, the summary of whats been happening over the last 3-4 weeks is as follows:

I started fishless cycling the tank on September 29th. I tried to maintain 2ppm ammonia in the tank, and to do so I found i had to add a little ammonia every other day. After a little more than a week, I tested nitrites and found I had none. I began to get a little concerned because the ammonia content was steadily dropping somewhat, but nitrites weren't accumulating, so I started to think that bacteria weren't growing and something was wrong. I diluted some tank water samples with tap water to different concentrations to make sure my ammonia readings were accurate, and just when I couldn't find anything wrong to explain what was going on, literally overnight all the ammonia disappeared and nitrites were off the charts . This occurred on october 13th.

Since then, I've been adding ammonia every day waiting for the nitrites to go away. I'm starting to get a little antsy because I'm expecting them to drop sometime in the next week, probably on next tuesday. I had a little confusion with the API nitrite test - it seems that if you let it sit for a while, the color will change from purple to blue and make you think you don't have any nitrites. Some nice people on the forums here helped me out in another thread.

And thats pretty much it as far as this tank goes. When the cycle completes, i will do a water change or two to lower nitrates and then probably go another couple days adding ammonia to make sure that I replenish any bacteria I threw away with the water changes. After that, its time to stock. I have 2 stocking plans in mind right now.

Plan A is to stock with 12 juvie yellow labs and 12 juvie mainganos, and weed out the extra males or stressed fish as they become a problem. Plan A is my "safe" plan. I hope my LFS can find me some mainganos, if not I would order all my stock online at once.

Plan B is my risky plan. It would be my "Pet Store Special" tank. Still 2 species of 12 juvies each, but I would get 12 kenyi and 12 auratus. I know its risky with little chance of long term success, but I still want to try and make it work. The pet store fish probably aren't going to have any better of a life anyways, right?. The plan would be to keep removing extra males as soon as they show themselves, with the goal of ending up with 1 male of each in the tank. In order to do this, I would remove the males to 10g isolation tanks to see if subdominant males would color up. When I have two males, I'll keep the best looking one always in the iso tank and return or sell the others, and continue to do this until i'm as sure as I can be that all the males are out of the main tank. Then I will attempt to add the males back into the main tank. Probably I will try to stack all the rockwork in the middle of the tank and try to encourage each male to stake a claim to each end of the tank, so hopefully they won't come into contact with each other to fight. Then it will be up to seeing how tolerant the males are of all the females in the tank. A potential problem might be that when I'm down to all females, the "alpha female" might decide to take on male auratus coloring, so I'll end up removing all the auratus as they continue to color up . Whether or not it works out, it would be a fun learning experience.

I go back and forth on how I'm going to stock every day, so it will probably come down to how I'm feeling once my tank cycles, and how easy it will be for me to find each species.

Oh, and by the way, I did buy another tank . Its a smaller tank though. 48x12 footprint, 12 deep, 29 gallons. Its going to go in the bedroom and be a shellie tank. I'm going to stock with a colony of similis and a single or pair of congo black fin calvus. Bought the tank, stand, and accessories on craigslist for $65. Came with a filter, but its inadequate and possible damaged. Thinking about experimenting with a DIY sump, or a pair of small HOB, or a canister and a HOB. This tank will be up in the bedroom, but noise isn't really too big of a concern because my wife and I fall asleep to the TV anyways. More on this tank once the mbuna tank is up in running - the wife says I gotta have fish in the first tank before messing around with the NEXT one :lol: I'm really excited about this next tank though, as I've been hearing that shellies are a blast to watch, and I absolutely love the dimensions of my new tank for shellies.


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