# Losing Demasoni



## Tula (Sep 9, 2007)

-Last Friday I noticed that one of my largest Demasoni was dead, his fins looked damaged, and color was pale (but I don't know how long he was dead before I saw him, he was not floating, I know it's gross and I don't know if it's normal, but when I netted him out, his scales seemed to come off easily).
-Tuesday night I am doing a water change, and notice another dead Demasoni, a small female.
-Last night when I got home and went to feed the fish, I noticed that one of my larger females is very lethargic, pale, and has a large scrape on her side that is red (about the size of your pinkie finger nail)....she died shortly after me noticing her.
-I just now came home, and when I went to feed the fish, another of my large males seems lethargic-he didn't get up to eat, his color is only slightly dull, and I don't see any signs of physical injuries.

55 gallon tank, 16 Demasoni (minus 3 now), 7 Yellow Labs, 1 common pleco (about 5").

the tank has been set up and running for about two years, the fish in the tank have been in for about a year and a half-no new fish have been added in at least a year-all of the fish were fry when I bought them, so they are all around 2 years old.

Aqua Clear 110, Rena XP2, 50% water change every week.

My Yellow Labs haven't shown any signs of being sick. My Pleco also seems to be fine. The remaining Demasoni look fine, good color, good appetite, chasing each other around etc

I don't see any signs of ich.

I do not have my test kits on me, I will get them back from my parents and test tomorrow night. Temp is 78 degrees. I know this doesn't mean that the water quality is perfect, but the fish are still mating and holding as often as ever, there are consistently at least 5 females holding at once.

I know Cichlids can fight, but I honestly don't think that this is what's going on. The first fish I lost was one of the biggest in the tank....and I think if they were fighting I would see a lot of other injuries in more of the fish, but they look fine. The decor in the tank is piled rock and two large green plants. I did have to remove a yellow lab about a month ago because he was being picked on, but I've had to remove him a few times before, he's not a dominate male at all.

I did a 50% water change last night and removed and re-stacked all of the rocks

I know you need test results to give me the best suggestions, but I'm just looking for some thoughts or suggestions right now. I have salt here, and I have Copper Safe at work that I can get tomorrow morning.


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## preacherboy (Jun 28, 2006)

Hello Tula, sorry to hear about your troubles.
First of all, that is one overstocked tank even though it has 
worked for you now for the past 1 1/2 years.

It may be that the stress levels from that many fish has finally caught up
to you, but I may be wrong.

But anyways, with the fish lethargic and not eating, then it sounds more 
like an intestinal problem or disease.

Water parameters would also greatly aid in a diagnosis as well.

You may need to treat with Jungle Parasite Clear; Metronidazole; or Clout.
See the links under Cichlaholics name. She will be better able to help you once
you get a list of your water parameters.

Good luck and you need to do something very soon because intestinal parasites
spread from one infected fish to another, usually by mouthing fecal matter.
So it's very important to vacuum up as much debris as possible when doing 
water changes.


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## Tula (Sep 9, 2007)

Amonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 15

I added the Copper Safe this afternoon.

I have no clue as to what is going on, only the Demasoni are being affected, my Yellow Labs aren't showing signs of anything being wrong.

Thanks preacherboy
-I know the tank is overstocked, but that is to help spread any aggression out, as far as mbuna tanks go, i've been told my levels are good. I understand what you're saying though. One thing that makes me question this however, is that I would think some of the smaller and weaker fish would have died first if it was stress, I've lost three larger fish (2 were large dominant males, one large female, and one smaller female). I'll have to check out Cichlaholics links...I havent been on here in a while, but I think I remember looking her links over before.

I have had an issue like this in the past, where only one species of fish was affected. I had a fry tank (that ended up having more than just fry in it), and one Acei had an infection from a fin wound, and all of the Acei in the tank died (now due to this being a fry tank, i lost about 30 acei that were 1-2" and one 4" female), but the Yellow Labs weren't affected at all.


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## gtphale (Oct 12, 2008)

I don't think that tank is over stocked at all. I think it is stocked just about correct. I would add some syno's and another bn or two. But that isn't your problem, really sounds like a new pecking order is being put into place. Do you know how many females you have now? I know most think you need to add more rock to reduce aggression but sometimes less rock gives them less to fight about. Just a thought. As for the smaller ones not being picked on it could be cause they are not seen as a threat.

I find it hard to believe it would be a parasite if you haven't added fish in over a year. So my guess would be aggression.

Good luck getting it figured out, I'm sure others here with more experiance will chime in with more helpful idea's.


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## Ckac13 (Feb 24, 2009)

Wow, im having the EXACT same problem. Word for word. Just the Dems too, pale, lethargic, 3 dead. I treated them with Clout assuming it was a parasite. Then realized i ran out of the stuff after treating once. I went to ever store around and nobody has it. I bought a different type and now the fish have perked up a lot in last 5 hours. 2 are still hanging around the bottom, 2 up at top but at least theyre moving around now. They were all 2 steps from death last night it seemed. Some looked almost entirely white. Gils are back to normal color now too.


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## Tula (Sep 9, 2007)

I really don't think it is aggression, if it was aggression, i really think that I would see more torn fins, bitten fins etc...Another male is looking sick today. His lips are white, his color is slightly pale, and he's basically lying on the bottom-this seems to be the first signs. However he ate fine when I fed them.

out of the original 16, i believe there were 10 females and 6 males, the numbers might be off by one or two.

I feel like I'm going to be stuck just watching them all die one by one.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

> Another male is looking sick today. His lips are white, his color is slightly pale, and he's basically lying on the bottom-this seems to be the first signs. However he ate fine when I fed them.


Hi

knowing the order of the symptoms is often key to diagnosing fish. If most of the fish were eating and swimming normally 24 hours before they died then more than likely it is either aggression or a bacterial infection--Columnaris is the one of the more deadly and fast moving infections that we see a lot of here on the forum.

If however your fish had a progression of symptoms that took say three days to a week or more to play out then it may be something like bloat.

Treatment for Columnaris: 
Turn heat down to 76. 
Do a partial water change of 30% with a good quality declorinator
Add aquarium salt at the rate of 2-3 tablespoons per five gallons
Increase water movement
Treat with: 
A combination of Maracyn and Maracyn-two
OR
Furan - 2
Or
Kanamycin.

The addition of salt and increasing the water movement helps prevent the bacteria from adhering to the fish's skin.

In the library section of the forum there's an article on Columnaris in which the author describes a salt BATH treatment that is reportedly very effective on Columnaris.

Please post back with additional questions and clarifacations of the fish's condition.

Robin


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## Tula (Sep 9, 2007)

Robin, thank you for the treatment suggestion. I know I can find Maracyn and Maracyn two at a few of the stores around here, so I will definitely pick those up tomorrow.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Excellent suggestions by Robin...

Just wanted to add that I do not believe the tank is overstocked at all. I had 20 adult demasoni in a 55G tank, along with 6 yellow labs. Your tank maintenance habits are good, and so is your filtration. You may even find you need to replace a few demasoni once you get to the bottom of things.

Are you comfortable that your test kits are accurate? Are they strips or liquid reagent kits? How long have you had them?

The only reason I'm asking is because of the deteriorated condition of the first dead demasoni, and the subsequent deaths.


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## Ckac13 (Feb 24, 2009)

any clue what the loss of color could be from? im having the exact same problem, identical. Theyre looking better now, but i lost 3 total. Now when i walk by the tank they go nuts again waiting to be fed, so they seem ok now. I hadnt fed them in days due to perceived bloat.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Color loss is a symptom that can come from any number of fish ailments/conditions. First thing you want to do when you notice a fish looking pale is test the water. Next, do a partial water change. 
Sometimes a change in color is in response to aggression/change in the tank heirarchy so while you're testing the water and doing the partial water change pay close attention to how the fish are interacting with each other. 
Robin


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## Tula (Sep 9, 2007)

cichlidaholic said:


> Excellent suggestions by Robin...
> 
> Just wanted to add that I do not believe the tank is overstocked at all. I had 20 adult demasoni in a 55G tank, along with 6 yellow labs. Your tank maintenance habits are good, and so is your filtration. You may even find you need to replace a few demasoni once you get to the bottom of things.
> 
> ...


I am definately going to need to replace the 4 that were lost-since they are down to 12, I am already noticing that there's more chasing going on, but that could be due to stress also...I know they'll repopulate themselves, but I don't know if the fry will grow fast enough to make a difference.

The test kits are the drop tests and are about 6 months old-I also brought a water sample into a local fish store i like to ask them if they had any suggestions...the test results were the same, however the woman could not get past the thought that aggression was the issue, and that they only ever put one Demasoni in a tank-which makes sense for them b/c you can't keep a fully stocked tank when people are buying the fish, however, she didn't seem to feel that my having 16 in a tank was a safe idea.

Monday-after I got home form work I did the 30% water change. lowered the heat, and treated the tank with Maracyn and Maracyn two. I already had the reg amount of salt in the tank, I added that Friday, but I replaced salt for the 30% water change-I don't want to go higher with with salt because of my pleco. I have the two filters for water movement, I angled the Rena spray get better movement, and I also have a bubble wand in the tank.

I haven't noticed any more dead fish, though with the rocks I wonder if I could be missing one, so I may do some poking around. The Labs _I think_ were looking not so good on Monday (but that could be my eyes playing tricks. I've also been leaving the lights on for less time than normal, to try and reduce any stress from the meds and illness.

Thanks again for everyone's suggestions, I really do appreciate it...I'll keep you updated on the progress.


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## Tula (Sep 9, 2007)

I finished treatment on Friday...did my normal 50% water change on Saturday...and knock on wood, but everyone seems to be doing well.

I do think that I am going to need to add to my numbers...it's a bit odd, I lost 4 Demasoni, but my dominate yellow lab is the one being a bully right now....but other wise things are looking good, I added carbon to one of the filters. My drop tests are looking good, Nitrates are at 10.

Thank you to everyone who helped out :thumb: it was expensive to medicate a 55gallon tank, but it was definitely better than losing all of my fish.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Glad to hear that the fish are doing well. 
 
Robin

And anytime you add/lose fish it changes the dynamics of the tank heirarchy so you never know which fish will step up to the #1 position.


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## Demasonian (Oct 23, 2005)

Hi Tula,

Glad to read that things are stabilizing for you. Realizing that this comes a little too late and that you've already received a lot of great advice, I just thought I'd throw in a couple of observations on Demasoni.

While your problem may indeed have been disease, my money would be on aggression. Top indicators...dead alpha male and white lips on other fish.

In my experience, Demasoni are very hierarchical and when the top male is killed or unseated by a rival male, there usually is a bit of a shakeout in the hierarchy. Sometimes this is "peaceful" but most often, results in a string of Demasoni deaths.

About the physical evidence of fighting, white lips mean that the fish are liplocking--fighting for dominance or territory. This heightens stress in the tank, and very often, leads to the death of the losing fish. The absence of tattered fins and battered bodies isn't necessarily a sign that there is no aggression. They don't always kill with their teeth. Sometimes they can stress the sub-dominants to death (take away their territory, force them to find other places to hide, like behind a heater or filter) or chase them into a rock or glass wall at high speed...

Faded colouration can mean many things, including illness, but it's also associated with aggression/stress.


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