# Wild Caught Ilangi



## Clay Keene

I am setting up a 150 gallon Tank for Tropheus. I would like to purchase a colony of wild caught Ilangi for the tank. Any recommendations or names of importers that I might be able to get around 30 fish from would be greatly appreciated. thx Clay


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## IrkedCitizen

Bluechipaquatics currently has exactly 30 wild caught Ilangi. He has good reviews in the review section. Moderators will tell you that you should check there and blah blah blah.

But yeah Chip has 30 Ilangi. $46 a piece but he has them.


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## TitoTee

Wild Caught....???

or

Pond Raised? opcorn:


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## IrkedCitizen

TitoTee said:


> Wild Caught....???
> 
> or
> 
> Pond Raised? opcorn:


*shrugs*

Depends on who he got them from.

I know at one time Toby was breeding them. He had a ratio of 1 male for every 15 females. He had ten males in the enclosure so one would figure he had 150 females. He would strip the females once a month at the same time every month. The process of doing so was removing all the rock piles and then netting out the fish. Then proceeding to strip. I do not however know if he still does this. He was doing it in late 2005 early 2006.

So he had wild parents and the water was directly from the lake and water changes were done every day. So these fry/eggs could still technically be considered wild caught as all fry and eggs were removed from this vat. Only the wild parents are housed on the side of the lake in this vat.


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## lloyd

IrkedCitizen said:


> ...So these fry/eggs could still technically be considered wild caught as all fry and eggs were removed from this vat. Only the wild parents are housed on the side of the lake in this vat.


 nope. 'wild parents are...housed in a vat'= TR.


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## IrkedCitizen

lloyd said:


> IrkedCitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...So these fry/eggs could still technically be considered wild caught as all fry and eggs were removed from this vat. Only the wild parents are housed on the side of the lake in this vat.
> 
> 
> 
> nope. 'wild parents are...housed in a vat'= TR.
Click to expand...

The water is still the same as the lake. The fish just cannot escape.

But considering all of the other "pond raising" methods that the other people use Toby's was by far the best.

The other people mix in the fry from the wild parents and then it becomes a f1-f2-f3-f10 where as Toby only had the wild parents. Had Toby's wild parents spit in the lake versus spitting in the vat doesn't really matter to me. I'd rather have these than other's "TR" or "PR" fish.


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## flashg

They are NOT WILD CAUGHT because they are in a cage my friend! As far as genetics go they are f0, but technically if you put two unrelated groups of fish in a tank and they breed, their progeny would be F0 right? But not WILD CAUGHT!


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## IrkedCitizen

Regardless it is still up in the air on the validity of wild caught Ilangi in today's market as actually being from the lake or breed in vats on the side. If they didn't come from the lake but were still coming from Africa then I would DEFINITELY want them to come from Toby without a doubt.

Tito brought it up so I commented and gave my opinion on the matter.

I still answered the original poster's question on where to find "wild caught" Ilangi.


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## Michael R.

flashg said:


> As far as genetics go they are f0, but technically if you put two unrelated groups of fish in a tank and they breed, their progeny would be F0 right? But not WILD CAUGHT!


As far as genetics go, there is no F0. F0 is a made-up term, and F1 is a term identifiying individuals of a certain strain. They can't be filial 0 is there is no line to come from :thumb: .

Two truly unrelated fish would produce F1s (and this does not mean two Tropheus of a single variant).

Two Ilangis, wild or not, don't really produce F1s. They just fetch a higher price :wink:.


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## Clay Keene

Thanks for all the info. I saw some advertised as wild caught. Now I have my doubts if wild or not. I would need to know how to get a hold of toby. My question for you guys would be if I should buy fish advertised as wild caught or not. Furthermore kind of hard to find 3" plus fish, I did look on the review page and emailed two people with wild caught Ilangi advertised.

thanks again for all the info. Will advise what I decide and post pictures when fish arrive.

clay


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## flashg

Michael R. said:


> flashg said:
> 
> 
> 
> As far as genetics go they are f0, but technically if you put two unrelated groups of fish in a tank and they breed, their progeny would be F0 = f1 sorry for the miss print right? But not WILD CAUGHT!
> 
> 
> 
> As far as genetics go, there is no F0. F0 is a made-up term, and F1 is a term identifiying individuals of a certain strain. They can't be filial 0 is there is no line to come from :thumb: .
> 
> Two truly unrelated fish would produce F1s (and this does not mean two Tropheus of a single variant).
> 
> Two Ilangis, wild or not, don't really produce F1s. They just fetch a higher price :wink:.
Click to expand...

Miss type above I meant to say the progeny of f0 a term to represent the start of an unrelated line wild or not, would produce f1 Not f0 like I said above. 
As far as crossing two variants... I will hold my tongue!

And IMO the term Wild Caught means to go out on a boat or from shore actually catch the fish with a net or a fishing pole so to speak!


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## IrkedCitizen

Clay Keene said:


> Thanks for all the info. I saw some advertised as wild caught. Now I have my doubts if wild or not. I would need to know how to get a hold of toby. My question for you guys would be if I should buy fish advertised as wild caught or not. Furthermore kind of hard to find 3" plus fish, I did look on the review page and emailed two people with wild caught Ilangi advertised.
> 
> thanks again for all the info. Will advise what I decide and post pictures when fish arrive.
> 
> clay


Toby isn't going to sell to you directly so getting a hold of him would serve no purpose.

As to the validity of true wild caught or not everyone is in the same boat. We can only take the word of people in Africa that are shipping the fish that the fish is actually from inside the lake and not breed in a vat. This of course does not pertain to fish that you went and collected yourself from the lake.

It the end it really doesn't matter much if they are wild/f1/f2 as long as they are good quality fish with nice colors then that is all that is important. That is of course as long as they aren't hybrids. Let's keep the hybrids to the other fish and leave tropheus as pure as possible. :thumb:


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## tank

I have seen the llangi Chip has. Just by the size and the way they act and look I would say these were pulled form the lake.


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## TitoTee

Let me help you folks out.

No one, no one here needs wild caught fish.

Unless you are a proffessional breeder and are in need of a fresh gene pool - you don't require wild caught fish!

Also, it is nothing more that pure vanity and a stroke of the ego for someone to say they have wild caught fish. No one can really make the difference between a wild caught fish and a tank raised fish by looks alone. And please - obviously I am talking about quality domestic fish not degenerates. Vat raised and pond raised fish - especially for tropheus are what I would call quality fish.

Now - as far as pricing is concerned - really, this entire hobby needs to mature. We should all have a clear understanding that adult fish willalways fetch adult fish prices. The distributors here in the US and abroad are capitalizing on the term "wild Caught". Instead - you the hobbyist should be setting the tone. And the tone is simple - have an adult fish price - regardless if it's wild caught or tank raised - an adult is an adult. An adult fish is ready to breed once placed in the tank and that is the REAL cash cow :wink:

So shop for your Ilangi like this - if you are getting juveniles expect a juvie pricing. If you are shopping adults expect an adult price. Now, when you visit all of the distributors sites - see who has the cheapest adult prices and buy from them - trust me, you'll have less of a head ache whne you see fish in those terms. You see - there is basically NO proof of what you are getting. Fish cannot be banded like birds. Sorry distributors - but I must educate.

Notice that in salt water - you will not find the term wild caught so loosely thrown around. Reason why? Most salt water fish are wild caught - you have no choice except for a few clown fish and some cardinals and maybe another species or two but that's about it. So, when you shop salt water fish - you pay the size of the fish. Adult fish fetch one price and younger fish fetch another. The same should apply for the hyped up African fish :roll:


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## 24Tropheus

If no one wants or needs WC why are fish sold as this?

Why are all Tropheus from Africa sold as WC when clearly they can not be this, as some African Tropheus are bred on the lake side and in vats?

Honesty is all we want.

Pond bred to be sold as Pond bred, vat bred to be sold as vat bred.

3 different things, all can be good but all different.

Then fish labeled as F1 or first generation from wild might (just might) have a chance of being as labeled.

Might even see first generation from pond bred being sold?

PS yes you can see a difference between newly imported WC fish and newly imported pond bred fish if you look at the jaw muscle development of adults and the size of the snout and the number of parasite marks. WC look wild easy as that.


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## Clay Keene

Thanks again for all the info.

Just a note. I will probably keep the fish for a long time. I would like to get quality fish. Wildcaught would be neat to know. I dont know I guess it could be an ego thing. However, pure bred fish out of a lake (wild Caught)or raised in a tank to me is somewhat different. It does not seem as important as quality fish with good color. I do understand your point of not important to your average guy like me. But when your going to have the same fish in your tank for maybe 7 to 10 years I say get quality you want.

Interesting information from all thx for input. :thumb: :thumb:

thx clay


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## flashg

I agree! Wild Caught has become a very loose and overused term in the hobby... As long as they are good quality PURE bred tropheus that is all that matters to me... F1, F2 whatever as long as they are quality, healthy and PURE!


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## Chip

I truly try to stay away from these types of discussions, but the blatant stupidity of some compells a reply. For those that think they know everything, please be advised you do not!!!

When I say wild caught- I mean wild caught, not vat raised. Our fish are random in size and not collected by "Toby".

Now for those that wish to debate the value of wild vs adult have at it- but do not call us, as we only offer wild caught adults.


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## flashg

Chip said:


> I truly try to stay away from these types of discussions, but the blatant stupidity of some compells a reply. For those that think they know everything, please be advised you do not!!!
> 
> When I say wild caught- I mean wild caught, not vat raised. Our fish are random in size and not collected by "Toby".
> 
> Now for those that wish to debate the value of wild vs adult have at it- but do not call us, as we only offer wild caught adults.


I was not pointing fingers especially not at you!!!! We ordered kaisers, blue rainbows and gobies from you about a month ago... And I can honestly say we have never been happier with the stock we recieved!
I just mean I hear hobbiest saying they have WILD fish all the time to get more money and I'm sure only about a 1/4 of it is true! YOu are a reputable dealer and I would not question that... With that said I hope it was not me!


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## IrkedCitizen

Yeah I wasn't pointing fingers either. I simply said that some people breed fish at the lake say they are wild caught and I gave examples.

What I was saying is that if they are coming from Africa and not out of the lake I would want fish from Toby. I have no idea what he markets his Ilangi as.


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## TitoTee

24Tropheus said:


> PS yes you can see a difference between newly imported WC fish and newly imported pond bred fish if you look at the jaw muscle development of adults and the size of the snout and the number of parasite marks. WC look wild easy as that.


Cool - we can all go too our tanks and see what's wild or not - thanks for the tip.
I have no wild caughts based on this criteria :thumb: 
Chip - I wasn't attacking you directly - what I said was more generic than anything else.
Many, many sources keep saying that Ilangi are no longer being collected in Lake Tanganyika. Who knows, maybe these people are stupid as well. 
Deleted sentence.
Deleted sentence.
Deleted sentence
but I am very interested in getting down to the TRUTH.
The fact is - that there are sources out there that say in plain English (other langguages as well) that Ilangi are "No longer collected in teh wild".
Deleted sentence.
I wasn't going to do it but I am....
Two words AD KONINGS
Yes Ad Konings - this is the man most sources say that Boops and Ilangi are practically extinct in the lake.
So maybe all these people are just using his name and lying opcorn:
Also Chip, again, I am not attacking YOU. I am just stating that there are people out there saying this and that - and they keep saying it and they keep using Ad Koning'[s. I don't believe everything I read but there has to be an explanation as to why all these people are talking like this - who knows, maybe it's a conspiracy and they want to boost up the prices :lol:

I have toned down my reponse :thumb:

Even Pam Chin brings to topic up in this response - check it out.
http://www.cichlidae.com/askpam/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=422

More popcorn opcorn:


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## Chip

All:

With no disrespect intended towards Ad, I can only assume that his words were misinterpeted or things have changed since he made the statement that is being referred to in this thread. I can tell you with absolute definitive confidence, we have had both Boops and Ilangi (wild caught from the lake) on multiple occassions within the last 3-4 years, usually twice a year at minimum.

I want to reference a previous discussion thread (sorry cannot recall when or topic) but at that time I suggested that populations of fish will migrate to nearby locals. The local divers (collectors) typically are not prone to exploration due to costs, and therefore will report no "ilangi" or "Boops" to be found. This may also have contributed to Ad's comments on a recent dive he may have taken. In short these fishes are available, although I cannot comment on lake density, or if populations are in jeopardy, but I doubt it, as there simply is not that much global export in our hobby to desimate a realitively prolific species. (IMO) I would love to hear fact/scientific based replies.


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## TitoTee

Thanks Chip. Again, my comments were more generic to the industry and not a direct point to your Co. It just so happened that the original poster mentioned your CO name.

I'm inclined to believe that the Ilangi story is more myth and legend than anything real - unfortunately, until we get real factual based informartion - the rumor mill will probably continue :?


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## 24Tropheus

Sadly I am not sure just how rare or otherwise Ilangi is in the wild.

Its not really helped by info like the below on the web.

http://www.fishaholics.org/gallery/thum ... p?album=50

Quote

"Tropheus moorii "Ilangi" Now extinct in the wild, this beautiful herbivore from Lake Tangayika is only preserved in our tanks "

Given without evidence one way or another.

Some are now appearing again on European importers lists as WC. (Small)
I do not know weather they are as labeled.

If genuine I hope no damage is being done by their collection.


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## NorthShore

I spoke with Ad a couple of months ago. What he said about Ilangi was that they were in a part of the lake where a diver would have to contend with crocs moreso than anywhere else in the lake. He said not many divers are willing to risk a croc attack. And so the crocs also make it difficult to assess the fish population.


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## TitoTee

NorthShore said:


> I spoke with Ad a couple of months ago. What he said about Ilangi was that they were in a part of the lake where a diver would have to contend with crocs moreso than anywhere else in the lake. He said not many divers are willing to risk a croc attack. And so the crocs also make it difficult to assess the fish population.


Sounds to me like hobbyist aren't getting wild caught.

I have an idea to all fish sellers....

Why don't you just sell the fish as Adult Ilangi. I don't think fish sales will go down.


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## Xenomorph

TitoTee said:


> NorthShore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I spoke with Ad a couple of months ago. What he said about Ilangi was that they were in a part of the lake where a diver would have to contend with crocs moreso than anywhere else in the lake. He said not many divers are willing to risk a croc attack. And so the crocs also make it difficult to assess the fish population.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds to me like hobbyist aren't getting wild caught.
> 
> I have an idea to all fish sellers....
> 
> Why don't you just sell the fish as Adult Ilangi. I don't think fish sales will go down.
Click to expand...

I was going to just sit here quiet and not say anything ...but can you stop with this? Chip is a reputable dealer and he's never been afraid of accepting if that something was true. I've personally dealt with him and I have friends that have done it for years and he says his stock is wild caught then I for one believe him.



24Tropheus said:


> Sadly I am not sure just how rare or otherwise Ilangi is in the wild.
> 
> Its not really helped by info like the below on the web.
> 
> http://www.fishaholics.org/gallery/thum ... p?album=50
> 
> Quote
> 
> "Tropheus moorii "Ilangi" Now extinct in the wild, this beautiful herbivore from Lake Tangayika is only preserved in our tanks "
> 
> Given without evidence one way or another.
> 
> Some are now appearing again on European importers lists as WC. (Small)
> I do not know weather they are as labeled.
> 
> If genuine I hope no damage is being done by their collection.


I know Spencer's a good source as well so definitely we have a dilema here. Could it be that the quote dates from the time that the collection probably receeded and prompted some of the internet sources to post them as exctinct in the Lake. It's such a large surface that it seems a little ridiculous to claim as an absolute truth that something is extinct. Reduced numbers, no doubt, extinct?!? Come on, these fish dodged all adversities, predators and humans, they are able to make a comeback if ever they've been into trouble.

...ending on a funny note, here's my 400gal Tropheus, I still have the WC Duboisi Maswas, sold the sp. "red" Moliro. The Duboisis are huge, males at 6", females 5"s, no kidding. Look for the "African lips" guy :wink:


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## TitoTee

Umm...

I think I'll stop when the proof is in the puddin :lol:

PS I already made it clear to Chip that my comments are not directed at him but the industry as a whole.

Chip is not the only guy on the block selling Wild Caught Ilangi's, by far not the only one.

Back to da opcorn:


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## Barbie

The information on the page at holics was what Tim was told by Ad Konings himself when he was there diving. You're welcome to discuss it with Tim, but it's not misinformation unless Ad has revised his opinion on it since the article was written .

Barbie


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## 24Tropheus

Loverly tank that and fish.  





Should be shot mixing WC Tropheus types with bog wood and plants. :wink: 
Tank and fish deserve their own thread! 

Guess we hobbyists are stuck not knowing what (Or who) to believe on the Ilangi wild population. 
Thanks for the input Barbie.

Just a pipe dream, wouldn't it be great to go and survey the population and habitats accurately?


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## Xenomorph

*Loverly tank that and fish.  




*
Well thank you very much.

*Should be shot mixing WC Tropheus types with bog wood and plants. :wink: 
Tank and fish deserve their own thread!  *

It caught me at a difficult moment with the move to Montreal and all... hence why I had to let go of the Moliro colony (~30) and I kept only the Duboisi and some other oddballs.

The tank will get a totally new look once I ship it over, custom background, new stand to fit a huge sump/growout tank (200gal+) and more Tropheus ...after I find another landlord crazy enough to let me setup a 400gal tank :fish: ...or buy my own place in Montreal.

Believe it or not, I've seen them grazing on the wood a lot, it didn't affect the pH, nor the hardness of the water. I have enough Aragonite sand as substrate and I do large water changes weekly 80-90%. They never touched the Valisneria, it was actually thriving, but I gave up on the plants when I brought my WC Boulengerochromis Microlepis pair.

The male









The courtship

















































The yawn









































*Guess we hobbyists are stuck not knowing what (Or who) to believe on the Ilangi wild population. 
Thanks for the input Barbie.

Just a pipe dream, wouldn't it be great to go and survey the population and habitats accurately?*
Dreams come true if one keeps dreaming and believing :dancing:


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## TitoTee

It is public and well known knowledge that Ilangi live in Crocodile infested waters .....

Really - who's going to make it a routine to dive those waters even once or twice a year for some fish???

It just makes more sense to take the risk once and fill a bunch of vats and begin a major breeding program!


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## flashg

Xenomorph said:


> The male


NiCE emperor cichlids man!  8) 8) 8)   8) 8)


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## Xenomorph

^Thanks, I hope they spawn... or at least get close to the 3' mark :drooling: ...that's when opcorn: things will get interesting :lol:


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## Chip

All + Tito Tee

My last contribution to this thread. Crocodiles and seasonal, and their are times when collections are possible. Furthermore capitilism is strong inAfrica, people will do a lot when paid a premium. Without going into mass detail, our last import of Ilangi was very large numbers, moreso than any vat program could support, size and acceptance of food all support they're wild caught, furthermore, our collector does not operate a captive breeding operation. Now all you sceptics could summize they were purchased in Africa, and resold. So beleive what you wish.

chip


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## Clay Keene

Thanks again for all the info.

I decided to buy Ilangi from chip. He has great feedback from everyone on this forum. I feel like the fish will definetly be high quality. Will post pictures once I get them in.

Thanks again

Clay :dancing: :dancing:


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## eklikewhoa

I agree with Chip.....if you know who the exporter is it is easy to come with the conclusion that they are in fact still being collected from the wild.


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## Guest

Clay Keene said:


> I am setting up a 150 gallon Tank for Tropheus. I would like to purchase a colony of wild caught Ilangi for the tank. Any recommendations or names of importers that I might be able to get around 30 fish from would be greatly appreciated. thx Clay


Atlantis has them: http://www.cichlids.net/pages/fish.php? ... Tanganyika

$48 each

Edit: I am not sure where Chip got his, but Old World Exotic (company that is a huge importer in Florida and is behind Cichlid News Magazine) reported that they imported the illangi tropheus in last friday "Tropheus Ilangi (Nkamba) " http://www.oldworldexoticfish.com/inbound.html

Based off this information I would not have any doubt in my mind that the fish Chip and Atlantis are selling are true wildcaughts...

Also, even if the fish was reported to be possibly extinct in the wild, all that really means is it hasn't been seen when official divers didn't confirm any sightings. It happens all the time in the world where animals thought to be extinct suddenly reappear.


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## 24Tropheus

Xenomorph you are the sort of guy who is an expert Tang cichlid keeper (can disregard the general rules) and will not take any advice from me. I predict disaster for your Troph with those guys.
I guess you know that (you are clearly very rich to try such at mix.)
I wish you well but I would give your Boulengerochromis microlepis a bigger tank and use (a far larger) more robust dither than Dubs.

Sorry for the negative input.

As to the Ilangi I a have no evidence that Chip does not do exactly what he says he does, sadly its not the norm (from my limited experience) without a great deal of checking here in the UK.


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## noddy

Apparently, This is the real truth. So all you naughty dealers out there stop with the tall tales. Tito has spoken. :lol:

Tito
NYCichlids Gold Member

You have posted in this forum: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:11 pm Post subject: Wild Caught Tropheus Ilangi

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a thread over at CF that is discussing Wild Caught Ilangi - and it is getting more interesting by the minute.

I can tell you this - if you are considering ever buying wild caught ilangi - you are getting suckered!

There are NO wild caught Ilangi. You will simply be buying adult or sub adult fish - expect to pay what you think a subadult or adult fish should cost and not what a so called Wild Caught fish should cost.

Ever since I got into Africans I always felt skeptical about that term Wild Caught. I've never seen it so loosely thrown around anywhere else - heck not even in Marine fish - and everyone knows most of them are Wild Caught. You certainly don't see the term be as used in the fish from the Americas!

Personally - I think the term WC is just a ploy to fetch MORE money!

CHeck out the thread in the Tropheus section. Same title Wild Caught Ilangi


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## eklikewhoa

It's all hearsay......

I want an Ilangi with the hump of a kingkong flowerhorn.


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## TitoTee

Noddy -

Most of the African Fish coming into the states - come from Old World Exotic - they are a major importer. Many of the site sponsors on this site will get their fish from them.

So what that means is that we are all banking on Old World Exotic's code of Ethics. Hopefully these are indeed wild caught Ilangi.


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## eklikewhoa

So what about the importers that are getting their stock from others? 
Are you saying that anything that does not come from Old World is the real deal?
Or does that statement only imply that Old World is not the be trusted with fish labeled "Wild Caught"?


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## NorthShore

The debate can go on and on. There are not many fish where the origin is questioned so much and so consistently like the Ilangi. I _hope_ that fish being sold as wild caught Ilangi are in fact wild caught.


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## Guest

Why the **** don't you guys just send an email to cichlidpress and ask Ad Konings himself if Ilangi really are extinct or not and how likely it is that they have been exported from Malawi?

That should settle any doubts...

I don't understand though why you guys are making such a big deal out of this... In the event that they are truly NOT wildcaught they are still imported and at the worst are farm raised on the shores of Tanganyika....

~Ed


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## eklikewhoa

Ad Konings has already stated they are extinct......but then there are guys that are on the lake that say otherwise....again it's hearsay.


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## TitoTee

eklikewhoa said:


> So what about the importers that are getting their stock from others?
> Are you saying that anything that does not come from Old World is the real deal?
> Or does that statement only imply that Old World is not the be trusted with fish labeled "Wild Caught"?


I'm not saying that at all. There is a pattern to follow. Every few weeks Old World Exotic will post a list of their recent imports. Well....then take a look at your favorite distributor - chances are you'll see the same fish for sale :wink:


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## Chip

Last time- ours are wild caught, if anyone wishes to discuss my e-mail address is readily available and here is my phone number 937 545 1300. Why would you accept that every other troph is wild caught, but not ilangi?.

chip


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## Guest

eklikewhoa said:


> Ad Konings has already stated they are extinct......but then there are guys that are on the lake that say otherwise....again it's hearsay.


I found two other sources including someone on this topic that said that someone said they heard Ad say they were extinct. I found another thread that said Ad said they are endangered.

To me, until we get a direct statement from him I don't think anyone can declare them extinct or not.

Besides, whether or not the wild ilangi that are popping up on lists are legitimate or not, they are still likely the best quality ones you will ever find.


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## Guest

Also, I dug up the following two topics in a google search with the exact same thing discussed, and each time it appears everybody came to a conclusion that the online sources can't be trusted as NONE of them list any sources to their claims. Everybody keeps saying Ad said they are extinct but I keep finding topics and websites contradicting that...and I can't find a single statement from Ad saying that they are in fact extinct.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... p?t=148814
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... p?t=127535

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... p?p=817909


Tim_in_NYC said:


> A friend sent this to me on this subject -
> 
> Mark Young, one of the exporters located at Mpulungu (and a member of cichlid-forum), as of last year confirmed that the Ilangi are still very much alive & doing well on the lake. Considering the fact that this exporter lives there, and catches tropheus for a living, I'm inclined to believe him over someone who has never even visited the lake. This rumour got started when some rogue collectors went in & captured approx 900 Ilangi in a single week. This took place a couple of years ago, and due to the low numbers being seen following this event, Toby Veil took up breeding them for a period of time. This may or may not still be taking place?
> According to Mark Young, the wild population has bounced back. This rumour of their decline also tended to drive the prices up, which I suppose worked in favour for anyone involved in selling this species.


Personally I don't believe that they are extinct. Until I get results from a population survey or Ad Konings says it himself (and not someone saying they heard him say it or someone they know said he said it, etc) I will not believe otherwise...

~Ed


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## eklikewhoa

I have seen a presentation by Ad Konings and you are right....he states first that they are endangered but then again later that they are extinct......then goes further into explaining that regardless, that part of the lake is flooded with Hippos and Crocs so either way we won't see much of them.

On the other hand I have spoke with others that have been to that part of the Lake and Ilangi is still there but seeing as the status of Congo is not the greatest has an effect on their situation.

I think this is a lame topic really.....No one ever mentions Duboisi.....


----------



## zamarky1

Hi,

Interesting debate but its all been said before. I dont know why this topic keeps coming up over and over.

Well in any case Illangis are still being collected....right up until two weeks ago. This i know to be fact - they were swimming around in my tanks for a few days ( i help out the odd person here and there and let them use my tanks on occasion).

I've not personally been to Chillanga rocks ( where iLLangi come from ) for a while now but i am heading up to the lake at end of this week and i'll be going by boat up the lake into Congo to do some work up there. On the way back i'll try to get over to Chillanga rocks to have a look to see whats going on. I'll take a diver with me and put him down to see what sort of density the trophs have right now at Chilanga rocks.

Still no matter what i report the story about illangi being extinct will keep going round and round. I guess its just one of those urban myths that get started and seem to take on a life of their own.

If illangis are extinct , then where are the wild illangi i keep seeing coming from ? Interesting.

Regards

ZM1


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## eklikewhoa

I think it's all the people that paid upwards to $80 per "WC Ilangi" here in the states trying to justify it or make themselves feel better.

I think it's odd that the last time this topic was brought up it was years ago but yet it comes up again like it just happened yesterday.


----------



## Guest

eklikewhoa said:


> I think it's all the people that paid upwards to $80 per "WC Ilangi" here in the states trying to justify it or make themselves feel better.


I don't see what's to justify... From the evidence I have seen the Ilangi is in fact NOT extinct.

zamarky1 just said he's seen them being collected and has freshly collected ones in his tanks at the moment, and even said he'll try to get over to where the Ilangi are and see for himself what is going on there. And if you look at his location his lives at Mpulungu on the shores of Lake Tanganyika.

I also just sent an email to cichlid press and if I get a reply from Ad like I did last time I sent an email I will post it here. I asked him what is going on with the Ilangi and all the reports that say they are extinct yet they are still being imported.

I honestly do not understand why people will believe that certain fish are extinct just because they heard they are when there are no reliable sources saying that are (again Ad Konings's video presentation according to *eklikewhoa* contradicts itself, and saying you heard him say or someone you know spoke with him said they heard him say isn't a reliable source) in fact extinct. I've seen several people say on this forum and others that they have personally seen Ilangi tropheus in the wild. Like *zamarky1* said, if the Ilangu are extinct then what are all these people who have been to the lake been seeing and what are in zamarky1's tanks???

Anyway if/when I get a reply from Ad Konings I will post it here. If I don't get a reply if I get a chance to meet him at the OCA this year I will be sure to ask him.

~Ed


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## eklikewhoa

Never argued with the fact that it is all hearsay....


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## IrkedCitizen

It's kind of funny that this whole thread started by someone asking where to get some wild caught Ilangi. I then told them where to get some and then someone asked about the validity of the "wild caught Ilangi" and I stated a fact that Ilangi have been bred on the lake shore so you might not be getting "lake caught wilds."

I didn't say anything about them being extinct but the topic went that way. If I had the money I wouldn't mind having a colony of "wild caught" even for an ego trip. I still wouldn't turn down some f1/f2 Ilangi fry. It doesn't make a difference to me.


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## zamarky1

Hi,

Marduk ; We have to be careful what we say. This thread will be referred to for years to come ;-)

I didn't say i have SEEN them being collected. What i said was i HAD some in my tanks a few weeks ago. They were there a few weeks ago and thats a fact. There gone now but it wont be long before more come in. Unfortunately i've just had a big loss up by the lake recently. I was preparing a shipment of Congo fish to go out but lost most of them due to a mishap - it happens sometimes! The illangi were not in this mishap - they only came in a week or so after i lost all my Congo frontosa's and all my Congo trophs i have been assembling for an export for some time now.

I'm seeing and hearing of illangi going out all the time so i cant understand why this persistent rumor keeps going round and round. What i have not seen with my own eyes for quite a long time is illangi swimming in the wild. As i say, i am seeing and hearing of wild illangi on a regular basis. Thats all i can tell you to be fact until i get wet and dive at chilanga rocks to see with my own eyes what the real story is. I suspect the numbers are well down since they are constantly harvested but i really cant see a population becoming extinct per se and then, to support my theory we have specimens coming down the lake regularly as mentioned.

I'd say illangi in the wild are surviving just fine, but i'll go eyeball them myself time permitting. Bit scary though - diving in those waters - it might be the last time you ever hear of me again...gulp!

Regards

ZM1


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## 24Tropheus

Hi zamarky1,

If you do go, taking some film of em and something to prove the date on the film (eg newish dated newspaper) would be great evidence and perhaps end the speculation. :thumb:

I would ask Chip to show photos of his with dates from newspapers but I guess he is too fed up with folk not taking his word that they are WC. Petty because the evidence would be relatively easy to give (Even though the scheptics could always think it was forged)


----------



## zamarky1

Hi,

-24 , yes chip sounds a wee bit annoyed i must agree. As you mention who could blame him. Illangi are still in the lake swimming around and being caught every now and then - yet this rumor does not end. To think it was started years ago - just goes to show you that you have to be very careful what you say - especially if you are a well known name.

Ahh ... a news paper underwater may not work too well ;-) and in any case i'll probably have a camera with me but not any sort of housing etc to go down with so there wont be any underwater photos to show - this time around.

All i can say is i will try to get over there on the way back down the lake and take a quick look. I'll report what i see and if the doubters still don't believe the story then i guess they'll have to get on a plane and come over for a swim themselves.

I shouldn't mention this because it will only start more rumor but here goes anyway. When i first came out here in 96 i was told by Toby that he found the most colorful variety of illangi and that the Blignauts were collecting a slightly different variety that they were also calling illlangi. He would not (of course) elaborate on where he was collecting his variety. Could it be the variety that has the really deep coloring that Toby was collecting is gone and the more subdued variety that the blignauts were collecting are what we are now seeing and collecting these days ?

That could explain why several people think they are actually correct.

It could also be that before Mr Konings dived there to make his opinion that they are either extinct or severely reduced in numbers, that one of our cowboy collecting outfits had been in a day or two before hand and decimated the numbers for a while ? That would explain why he has taken the stance that he has. Who knows. All i can tell you is i am seeing what look like illangi to me, every now and again.

Regards

ZM1


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## TitoTee

Let me clarify my position because I am the one that started this thing in this thread!

I did not say Ilangi were extinct - I only questioned if they were truly Wild Caught.

My position has been that it is easier to breed Ilangi lakeside then it is to have your legs bitten off - that's it - that simple. For me it's a technicality - are they Wild Caught or are they Vat bred and raised. I just don't think it's right to call the fish wild caught if it was bred in a vat - no matter how close to the lake.

I don't believe the fish is extinct.

I just believe the fish isn't been collected for sale because of the waters they live in.

Chip may be frustrated but so are a lot of other people as well.


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## TitoTee

eklikewhoa said:


> I think this is a lame topic really.....No one ever mentions Duboisi.....


I keep Duboisi as well :thumb:


----------



## Longstocking

I don't really want to get involved debating all of this.... I just want to point out one thing.

I love the work Konings has done on the lakes. But, please keep in mind Konings hasn't been to lake tang since 2004 ( I think that is what he said to me ). Most of his work is on Lake Malawi now.

Mark ... good to hear from you. That stinks you lost all those congo fish ! I would have loved to see some new congo blood in the hooby.


----------



## tuway

I don't care abou the WC label, I just want to see some pictures of these Ilangi "YELLOW" fish that are currently up for sale by various dealers. I hope their coloration lives up to the pix taken by Konings.

Anyone took pix of these particular Ilangis?


----------



## TitoTee

tuway said:


> I don't care abou the WC label, I just want to see some pictures of these Ilangi "YELLOW" fish that are currently up for sale by various dealers. I hope their coloration lives up to the pix taken by Konings.
> 
> Anyone took pix of these particular Ilangis?


Good luck!

I have been looking for that Koning's Ilangi ever since I discovered Trophs - it has yet to be found 

Maybe it's the PIC itself that is off :dancing:

Judge for yourself -

Here is the Photo that got me to day dreaming! The one on the top opcorn:

http://www.cichlidlovers.com/t_m_ilangi_yellow.htm


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## Longstocking

Take a trip to frybabies... she is close to you Titotee.

Old 6 inch ilangi imported as yellow ilangi from african diving.

She has a young group recently imported right next to them. You can see the difference.


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## tuway

> She has a young group recently imported right next to them. You can see the difference.


OK, I can read between the lines...

So what Konings might have said was the variant with which he took the original pix as referred by Tito were no longer available in the "wild". :-? :-?

So what do the current "WC Ilangis' look like, anyway?


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## IrkedCitizen

The thing about Konings is that he finds the best specimen he can and then photographs it for his books. So there is no guarantee that all of them look like what is pictured in his books.

Ilangi are still amazing looking fish regardless.


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## flashg

TitoTee said:


> eklikewhoa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is a lame topic really.....No one ever mentions Duboisi.....
> 
> 
> 
> I keep Duboisi as well :thumb:
Click to expand...

I'm curious, I heard a rumor they don't collect dubs any more or that they are extinct in the wild... Not sure what to believe! I doubt they are extinct... WHat do you think?


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## IrkedCitizen

flashg said:


> TitoTee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eklikewhoa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is a lame topic really.....No one ever mentions Duboisi.....
> 
> 
> 
> I keep Duboisi as well :thumb:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm curious, I heard a rumor they don't collect dubs any more or that they are extinct in the wild... Not sure what to believe! I doubt they are extinct... WHat do you think?
Click to expand...

They aren't extinct but I saw them on the endangered list. I forget where the link was but it is somewhere.

You don't see very many "wild caught" Duboisi coming in anymore.

But let's not get onto that topic. This one is already out of hand.


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## Longstocking

The ones that were just brought into the states... look like the old ones ( the ones on Atlantis). I was amazed actually. For years it was the other ones. Right now.... they look like the old ones IMO.


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## eklikewhoa

The ones I have seen come in are the "Yellow" Ilangi as pictured by Ad Konings.......When you see large orders of Ilangi's there is always "most" that look like that pictured but not ALL will look like that picture which is the norm when you are dealing with fish that are colonial and have the striking colors.


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## CrimsonHelkite

So what's up with the dubs? What is here is here and that's it?


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## flashg

I too am curious to hear what there is to be said about the dub! I even started a new thread


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## Guest

IrkedCitizen said:


> flashg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TitoTee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eklikewhoa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is a lame topic really.....No one ever mentions Duboisi.....
> 
> 
> 
> I keep Duboisi as well :thumb:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm curious, I heard a rumor they don't collect dubs any more or that they are extinct in the wild... Not sure what to believe! I doubt they are extinct... WHat do you think?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They aren't extinct but I saw them on the endangered list. I forget where the link was but it is somewhere.
> 
> You don't see very many "wild caught" Duboisi coming in anymore.
> 
> But let's not get onto that topic. This one is already out of hand.
Click to expand...

Here's the link. They aren't listed as endangered though, but very vulnerable: http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/details.php/60704/all from the "International Union for Conservation of Nature"


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## IrkedCitizen

Well there you have it. Vulnerable not endangered. I read the link before but couldn't remember.

Regardless there aren't many, if any, wild duboisi being exported that I know of.


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## TitoTee

I think it's time for hobbyist to stop placing demands on certain Wild Caught fish.

I have always been perfectly satisified with tank raised fish.


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## eklikewhoa

I think people should never remove fish from the wild period.....I am going to go pour all of mine into the ocean where they can swim back to Tanganyika and be free!


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## flashg

eklikewhoa said:


> I think people should never remove fish from the wild period.....I am going to go pour all of mine into the ocean where they can swim back to Tanganyika and be free!


 :lol: :lol: :lol: Me too! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Staszek

What I find to be the funniest part of this thread was when people were saying all this stuff on page 1 about importers and dealers, then Chip comes on and everyone gets scared and says their not talking about him. :lol: :lol:

Whats he going to do........not take your money for fish.

What it comes down to is none of us know the truth, not even Chip.

I will say though that I would believe most big importers that say they have WC if they post WC.....they have to much to lose if it isn't.

But the only people that really know are at the lake or those that go.

Who are you going to believe, the exporter or importer that has a vested interest, or someone that doesn't and dives for knowledge.


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## TitoTee

Since Chip is not an African Exporter but merely one of many American Importers I had nothing to be scared about - I know for me - my statment remains - it is Generic to the Industry itself.


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## Longstocking

lol Steve... that's why I want to go blow bubbles in the lake... Soon I hope !!!

For some reason I doubt anyone would take us to where the Ilangi live though....maybe if we pay them a lot :lol:


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## 24Tropheus

Why would you need to pay them a lot for the "new" location?
Surely this info is shared freely? :lol:

I asked a guy once were he got the "special" extra yellow Ilangi from.

"Sadly I can not give that info" was the reply.

Me I think its sad that there is competition for this info. Tragedy of the commons is the results all to often and too many times. I.e. each doing the best they can for their self interest, leads to the destruction of the stock. I do hope it not the case yet but surely it will be without control.
Guess it may be given to a diver on a hush hush basis though.
Ever gone to a dive site blindfolded?

As to the doubling of the price of this Tropheus as compared to other WC?........
Sadly has it just increases demand?


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## katytropheus

A little off topic, but, how frequently do the above show up for sale? Are they mainly coming from farms/vats over there on the lake or out of Florida ponds? I remember seeing some of the pictures, possibly out of Germany, 20 years ago, where the red coloration and the dark black were incredible.

Sort of like the Ilangi, really interested in the history of that breed in the hobbyist arena.

Thanks.


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## geoff_tropheus

It would not suprise me one bit that if Toby Veal would pond/vat raise Duboisi Maswa, then why would he not do it with Ilangi? The fish is more profitable?

Further more, it would not suprise me, that Stuart Grant is not raising them at his operation on Lake Malawi. The fish is a highly profitable fish with high demand.

No one really knows unless you there.

I do believe there are plenty of Ilangi in the lake, it's just so massive, and the fish there lots of places to run.

I think whats extinct is the fish in Konnings photo, that fish may not be found. Is the photo real?....hmmm probably...or not?

Kinda like how many licks to the center of a tootsie roll tootsie pop...the world may never know...


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## geoff_tropheus

http://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=124

Ad Konnings writes...

.....Toby wanted to collect a good number of Tropheus duboisi "Maswa" in order to set up a breeding colony at his station in Zambia which is only about 2.5 miles from the Tanzanian border. He figured that the cost of such an expedition could never be recovered by the sale of these cichlids (even if everything went according to plan), so all the specimens brought back would be used solely for breeding purposes......

....That day they covered the entire stretch, and we thought to move on the following day as it looked like that from here till Cape Kabogo the shoreline was rocky. However when we checked at several places up to about 16 km (ten miles) north of Halembe, we were unable to find "Maswas" even though the type of habitat seemed the same. Toby wanted 400 females; estimating that 10-15% would not survive the trip back to Zambia, we knew we needed more. Therefore we decided to recollect the same 2 km (1.25 mile) stretch of coastline the next day. An amazing total of 500 females were collected in all. I was afraid that we had completely depleted this part of the lake of T. duboisi "Maswa" but when I snorkeled after the collecting efforts were completed, I was still able to see "Maswas" in deeper water....


----------



## IrkedCitizen

geoff_tropheus said:


> It would not suprise me one bit that if Toby Veal would pond/vat raise Duboisi Maswa, then why would he not do it with Ilangi? The fish is more profitable?
> 
> Further more, it would not suprise me, that Stuart Grant is not raising them at his operation on Lake Malawi. The fish is a highly profitable fish with high demand.
> 
> No one really knows unless you there.
> 
> I do believe there are plenty of Ilangi in the lake, it's just so massive, and the fish there lots of places to run.
> 
> I think whats extinct is the fish in Konnings photo, that fish may not be found. Is the photo real?....hmmm probably...or not?
> 
> Kinda like how many licks to the center of a tootsie roll tootsie pop...the world may never know...


I thought Stuart Grant died a couple years ago? I am sure one of the main people who collect Malawi's passed. His operation is still going with his Wife running things now. I am not sure if he/they are breeding Ilangi but Toby for sure was breeding Ilangi.


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## geoff_tropheus

Stuart Grant Died October 2007

http://www.lakemalawi.com/


----------



## katytropheus

Sort of interesting to read all the way through this topic and see the discussion on "real picture" or possible extinction of a sub race of Ilangi. On one of these sites was a picture of a Chilanga as an alternative to the Ilangi (red variety)--I thought it was gorgeous. I must have pulled 50 other pictures of the supposed Chilanga and there were none that were remotely close to the beauty of the Chilanga I saw initially. Know nothing about photography but it sure can make a difference.


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## TitoTee

Way too much mystery for me.....

Somebody get down to the bottom of this opcorn:


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## NorthShore

We should be hearing from Zamarky shortly.... opcorn:


----------



## zamarky1

Hi,

Thanks Gerry !! 

Yeah look its all been said. There is absolutely nothing more to be said on all this. The facts are what they are.

Yes its a fact Toby was breeding illangi - i have no idea what he is doing currently over there though.

Its no big secret where illangi come from. CHILLANGA ROCKS is where you want go to see illangi in the wild. Its in Nkamba bay. If you ever do get there its quite simple to find the place - You simply find Kasaba Bay Lodge which is actually in Kala Bay (go figure) and keep heading straight up Nkamba bay on the Kasaba Bay Lodge side of Nkamba bay - once you get past the end of the runway ( there is an airstrip at kasaba Bay lodge ) you go a bit further up the bay and there they are - CHILLANGA ROCKS. The place is well known by the locals so its easy to find. The bigger mystery is where Toby was getting his version of illangi and where the blignauts were getting their version. I don't know that.

illangi are still coming out of the water at Chillanga rocks - as of a few weeks ago. I have nothing to gain by debunking a myth so it escapes me as to why this story keeps going round and round.

I can fully understand why Toby might be breeding Dubosi. The cost to get up there when Mr Konings wrote his piece on that story was high. Now its insane!!!! Fuel has hit $11.38 USD per gallon here in Lusaka - at the lake you can add 1/3 to 1/2 more and further up the lake you could easily double if not triple it !!! Its getting very expensive to go collect fish!! This is a story in itself. In real terms the price of fish have declined dramatically - the prices have not gone up for the fish yet the costs on the ground have risen hundreds of percent ( if not a thousand or more percent) , the cost of airfreight is reaching new highs, the cost of labor is exploding and to build here now is almost impossible because of the price of raw materials - its now around $25.00 USD for a 50Kg bag of cement!!! So all things considered your all lucky any fish are coming off the lake at all! The future of this business is looking pretty bleak!!

So yes to breed a fish like Dubosi who are a long way up the lake from our end makes perfect sense. That then brings the whole debate about pond raised Vs wild caught which is partly what this thread is about. Soon we may only be shipping pond raised fish if fuel prices keep going the way they are - and lets face it - none of you are going to pay more for your wild fish - right 

If you ask me ( and nobody is ) it makes all the sense in the world to only send out pond raised fish from the lake shore. It cuts down on costs and conserves the wild stocks which has to be a consideration in this day and green age. The sheer economics may bring this about in anycase.

I think the real mystery here is where Toby was getting his version and where the blignauts were getting their version from. I think since Mr Konings and Toby were such good buddies ( at one time - no idea nowadays - Mr Konings does not come up this way anymore so one has to wonder why ) it makes logical sense that Mr Konings was diving Tobys location - therefore it makes a lot of sense to me that the remarks Mr Konings has made refer to Tobys location. perhaps the really deep colored ones that Toby was getting are the ones that are almost gone?? I dont know its all speculation on my part on this part of the story - but it does make sense if you think about it. I mean Mr Konings comes across to me as a straight up sort of guy and the man has a good head on his shoulders as many of you who have spoken with him would agree - so i highly doubt Mr Konings would make up a story. So what is the basis for his remarks that have fulled this controversy? It seems to make sense that he remarked on Tobys version of illangi. Maybe what we are seeing today is a slightly different fish that we call illangi today but the deep colored ones Toby was getting are indeed gone? As to that famous photo ( which i first saw in Malawi when i found Mr Konings at Stuarts place and i saw the book that had that photo in it before it was released - he had prepublication copies with him ) well i doubt that there are many illangis that look like that. If you consider his photo of Lufubu and could see how they look in the wild you would understand my comment - Lufubu's look nothing like his photo of Lufubu - at least none i ever saw. So that photo of illangi is a bit dubious to me.

Bottom line ; the illangi version that is coming from Chillanga rocks is still there and coming out periodically - whether these are the fish that Mr Konings photographed i dont know.

Toby is probably still breeding them, no one else in Zambia is. It makes perfect sense for an exporter far to the north of the lake to also be breeding them but i dont know this to be factual.

I dont breed anything as i cant afford the cement to build ponds ;-( but i think this is the way we are heading unless prices have a sharp upwards spike for the wild fish or fuel prices recede to a sensible level.

Hey at least the lake water level is up. Thats something - my harbor is a harbor again.

Regards

ZM1


----------



## RayQ

Nice to hear from someone who is actually on the lake :thumb:

Ray


----------



## TitoTee

So that settles it I think....

There are Wild Caught "Ilangi" a la Koning's or not - there are some wild.

Now - are you getting Wild when they say they are wild....

Well - I guess we are left with nothing but Sheer Trust/Faith that we are being told the truth!

Geeze - that last sentence just took me back to first base! :lol:


----------



## eklikewhoa

I guest we have to start this debate all over again..... :roll: opcorn:


----------



## zamarky1

Hi,

Tito - your dead right on that. Are you getting wild fish or pond raised fish? I'd be very very skeptical about that myself - even here in Zambia if i were buying this fish and was not in the trade as it were. I dont think that there is an answer for this except to trust your dealer who in turn has to trust the exporter - and if we face facts - historically its been difficult to trust anyone in the fish biz. How would anyone know where the fish are coming from - i mean really ? how ?

If i was so disposed, i could easily build a pond in my backyard here and stock it with hundreds to thousands of illangi - if i wanted too - ( i dont so relax ;-0 ) - breed them and grade the fry and sell them on as wild fish. They are coming out of Zambia in this scenario so how would your dealer know any better? He in good faith would report to you that he bought wild illangi from Zambia.

So it all depends on the exporter - you either trust the guy or you dont. Its that easy.

Interesting discussion? - yes. Are they gone form the wild?- no. Are they under pressure? - most probably. Are you getting wild fish? who knows - depends on the exporter.

Now to me Dubosi is an exotic fish...its a long long way away from me in a country i cant collect in....i'd love some of those to breed.......

Regards

ZM1

P.S i'm going back into hibernation now. I only came out of the woodwork because this discussion became very interesting. I'll let the camera do the talking from now on. phewww say the forum members


----------



## TitoTee

ZM1 - thank you for the kindness of your time and for being honest.

I think your testimony has cleared a lot of smog for many of us.

We are of course left but to wonder what is wild and what is not but I will leave that anxiety to those individuals that swear and pay that they have wild caught Ilangi - to each his own.

As for me - I keep Duboisi :thumb:


----------



## Chip

We have established that there are wild ilangi- so now one asks how do the USA based importers really know what they have. If you have been in this business long enough, you will come to realize their are many, albeit subtle (Mark if your reading this, one more affirmation would be appreciated!!!!) differences. These differences include behavioral, the acceptance of food, and general size range of the fish. Also as last comment, the overall species ordered, and the locals they come from can add credance to the wild origin. So at the end, it comes down to trust, so when "wild" 3-4 inch Congo Frontosa are offered, commanding a much higher price than any tropheus, being much hardier, and having larger spawns, surely they too must be vat raised by the professional breeders in Africa, right? The fact is only one exporter has a lakeside operation, and all the rest are miles form the lake, the cost of water, electricity etc, make large breeding operations almost impossible. The only real African lake remote farmer is in Burundi, while in Zambia, there is the one we've all discussed.

chip


----------



## zamarky1

Hi,

- Chip

Your right - there is only one biggish breeder by the lake and that is Fishes of Burundi (FOB). Toby does minor breeding only. No one else i know of is breeding in any meaningful way. Most certainly the chap you deal with does *NO* breeding whatsoever as he is based 1000 klms away from the lake ( but has a station at the lake of course) and as you mention the water and electricity needed to run a big breeding facility becomes a challenge once you move away from the lake.

My earlier point still stands though - you wouldn't really know where those fish are coming from if one decided to be dishonest on this side. The points you raised are valid to a point - for example i was keeping my fish a minimum of 3 to 4 months before i shipped them. In this time they became very used to flake food ( which i did on purpose - to make sure they would eat once stateside) and their fins grew back to full finnage- all their sores and any damage from being collected healed and they were in perfect condition when they left the side of the lake. If you saw these fish you might be prompted to ask if they were wild caught or pond raised - because of the prime condition they were in. I would bet if i did this with illangi i would be accused of selling pond raised fish instead of WC ! So you cant *REALLY* tell.

Your right when you talk about small frontosa. They are valuable so if one is breeding illangi then they should also be breeding frontosa from Congo. So if we go that far then we have to ask if *any* of the fish being shipped from Africa are wild or pond raised. It gets ridiculous fast doesn't it!!

I say again ; it all comes down to honesty. If your dealing with a two bit local operation by the side of the lake then all bets are off. If your dealing with professionals who have been doing this for years with a reputation to look after then its highly doubtful they will be pulling any fast ones. You need to remember we need you as much as you need us. Fly by nighters and crooks don't tend to last too long out here.

I think it comes down to this - if your buying fish from Toby then you may want to be careful your getting wild stock instead of pond raised. If your dealing with FOB your almost certainly getting pond raised. If your dealing with anyone else then its pretty much sure your getting wild stock.

Still i understand there are those who think i have my own agenda and so what i say can be taken with a grain of salt. All i can say is i have told it as i know it and i am very close to the center of it all ( living by the lake and all ).

I for one could not afford to take the chance of being found out - that is - selling pond raised as wild stock - once that got out i would find it difficult to sell a fish to anyone so i would not even consider this. I think you will find most exporters feel the same.

Regards

ZM1


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## katytropheus

Being new to the forum, I really enjoy the "on the ground" insight which traces tropheus from the LFS back to the point of origin. Mixing in some historical points even juices the interest level.

Much appreciated from my point of view because like most of the people on this particular forum, I would be classifed as a "serious hobbyist".


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## eklikewhoa

This thread has taken a very interesting turn!

Thanks for taking the time out to reply to this thread Mark!


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## zamarky1

Hi,

-EK

No problem. I read this forum every day (or at least when when i am in a place that has access to the net) and have been for years. I read a few others as well as you know. When i have something positive to add that gives real and solid information i post it. Otherwise i just stay in the background.

Regards

ZM1


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## Xenomorph

24Tropheus said:


> Xenomorph you are the sort of guy who is an expert Tang cichlid keeper (can disregard the general rules) and will not take any advice from me. I predict disaster for your Troph with those guys.
> I guess you know that (you are clearly very rich to try such at mix.)
> I wish you well but I would give your Boulengerochromis microlepis a bigger tank and use (a far larger) more robust dither than Dubs.
> 
> Sorry for the negative input.
> 
> As to the Ilangi I a have no evidence that Chip does not do exactly what he says he does, sadly its not the norm (from my limited experience) without a great deal of checking here in the UK.


Keep them well fed and nothing happens. Besides the pellet food they were fed I supplemented with 100 feeders/week and no Dub was molested. However, they inhabit the 400 gal just with full grown Frontosas right now, I moved the Duboisis for breeding purposes, apparently no fry can survive with the Emperors 

Your input is greatly appreciated and I would never take it lightly. This was a temporary situation and I've only kept them together because the Duboisis are really massive, the smallest female is 5"+.

You're right on the bigger tank ...but I have yet to finish Law school to build my house around the fish tank :dancing: ...until then, they can squeeze their fins in the 400gal. :thumb:


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## Clay Keene

Here are the wild caught fish I received from chip. They are doing pretty good lost two in the first 24hrs. Tell me what you think.

thx Clay


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## parrdog

They're beautiful .


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## myjohnson

how did you use two?

are they all eating?

really nice fishes.....hope mines are as nice when they get big. :thumb:


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## 24Tropheus

Very interesting photos and fish thanks.
Wonder if they will color up like the Ilangi of old?
http://www.cichlidlovers.com/t_m_ilangi_yellow.htm


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## eklikewhoa

Looking good....I was in line to get those from Chip too.

24T, I'm sure the right specimen and under the right lighting we can get a picture like Ad's.


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## Xenomorph

What about yours Shawn, don't they look the same?!?


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## TitoTee

24Tropheus said:


> Very interesting photos and fish thanks.
> Wonder if they will color up like the Ilangi of old?
> http://www.cichlidlovers.com/t_m_ilangi_yellow.htm


Doubt it.


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## myjohnson

TitoTee said:


> 24Tropheus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Very interesting photos and fish thanks.
> Wonder if they will color up like the Ilangi of old?
> http://www.cichlidlovers.com/t_m_ilangi_yellow.htm
> 
> 
> 
> Doubt it.
Click to expand...

maybe....if it was like a show fish or something.


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## Richard D

I think they look great. I wish I still had Pic's of John Davidson's from JD Tropheus.


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## fiupntballr

Remember there were two types of Ilangis one a bit more yellow than the other...


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## eklikewhoa

I think that two types of Ilangi's is a made up "title" to ask for more money.


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## IrkedCitizen

Yeah. There is only one Ilangi and they are yellows The other variant from the same area are called Chilanga and they are more red. That's why the collection point is called "Chilanga rocks"


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## Clay Keene

Yea,

I think you are right. I have two Ilangi that are very dark in the body and have a red dorsal fin. (chilanga)I am going to take them out to the local fish store when I recieve my fish I purchased from bigdawg.

I am also wondering on my ratio. I have two dominant males now. However, I have alot of fighting right now. Neat to watch my fish have scars on their sides. I think maybe breeding would be better If i vent them and remove some males.

No matter what I sure like my Ilangi and love watching them.. :thumb: :thumb: \

thxs for the nice comments clay


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## 24Tropheus

I saw some WC today at my local importer. They all looked to me like the photos here and not like Ads old photo or the ones we used to see years ago.

Folk trying to order and buy them while still really in quarantine. Booking fish. Despite being about twice the price of some other very good Tropheus types. opcorn:


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## Staszek

Exporters over at the lake list 2 types of Illangi.

Illangi Yellow and Illangi Orange or Illangi Chilanga Rocks whatever you want to call it, but their are 2 Illangi.

Thats why you see the dealers here list Illangi Yellow Real.


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## 24Tropheus

I did not get any photos of the guys I saw but if I can get permission from another guy I will post em. 8) 
As I said I am not an expert on these just a rather confused hobbyist. Esp confused by the photos of what seems to be two very different wild types.


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## 24Tropheus

Photo permission granted thanks Mike.


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## mcfish

Nice photo of a nice fish. Looks enough like a yellow fish to pass my Ilangi test. :wink:

Mark


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## 24Tropheus

Must say it all seems a matter of degree of yellow. I guess you could take a photo of this guy after being kept in a tank and with the right lighting and substrate and get a photo like Ads old one.


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## noddy

Nowt wrong with that one 24.


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## TitoTee

That Mike Photo is the typical Ilangi that you will find in the U.S.A.


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## supafly

I found this on youtube.





These are definately the real yellows and probably identical to the one from Ad's photo.
Do any importers bring these into the US? If they do it work definately command a high price. Chip please PM about these Ilangis.


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## noddy

Those are nice. Next time I'm in Manchester, I might have to pop over and see if he has any fry.


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## NorthShore

supafly said:


> I found this on youtube.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are definately the real yellows and probably identical to the one from Ad's photo.
> Do any importers bring these into the US? If they do it work definately command a high price. Chip please PM about these Ilangis.


3000 british pounds for 15? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## TitoTee

The Ilangi in that Youtube Video don't look any different than the many colonies I've seen around here locally.....sorry :?


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## 24Tropheus

Northshore said:


> 3000 british pounds for 15? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Yep that is about four times the going rate, even for Ilangi, even here where WC seem to cost a lot.

But selected best colour ones then I bet other buyers can be found even at that Â£200 each.

Back in the 80s rare Tropheus were selling well at those sort of prices here.

Though I guess we are sure these are not rare, just very hard (dangerous) to collect and select the yellow guys?


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## supafly

TitoTee said:


> The Ilangi in that Youtube Video don't look any different than the many colonies I've seen around here locally.....sorry :?


Are you serious? If ones with colors like these are as common as you say, I don't think there would be much of a debate on here. Just take a close look at a few of the dominant males in the video, they are a solid red and yellow. IMO, these are what all Ilangi fanatics look for, including myself. By chance do you know who has ones like these for sale, PM me your price.


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## IrkedCitizen

Tito is just being Tito.

The debate was more or less to the effect of whether or not what we are getting are actually "wild caught" Ilangi not the coloration. Tito is one that believes the Ilangi we are getting aren't legitimate "wild" fish.

Me personally I have never seen an Ilangi that looked like the picture Ad took. Even of the "earlier" wild caught colonies.

As for the prices just look around in the trading post and on the retailer's websites. Eklikewhoa usually has tons of fry. You can PM him if you want fry. He has a nice looking colony. But with you living in Canada you might be hard pressed to find any for a reasonable price.


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## supafly

Perhaps it the large size and maturity of the fish in that video, but they are certainly not what you see every day, even when compared to Ellikewhoa's colony (no offense, just using as a reference). Do you not think that those fish are pretty close to the Ad photo?


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## TitoTee

IrkedCitizen - LOL That's right bud you know me :lol:

Seriously - I did check out the video and there were a couple of REALLY yellow males - very yelllow indeed very dark faces too.

But the colony overall looked typical to me.

Maybe it was just the quality of the video.

Another good point made by supafly - this colony looks over threee years old - you can tell by the shape of the fish and coloration. Most people posting pictures have young colonies and the fish have not really reached their full coloration.


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## lcosme

>


Hes also using a 50/50 bulb.. making the yellow a bit green and "neon".

Very nice fish!


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## TitoTee

It's funny....

You don't get this kind of discussion with Discus - whether Wild or Domestic....

That's why I'm sticking with Discus


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## eklikewhoa

:lol: opcorn:

wilds or not those in the vid look wicked nice!


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## katytropheus

Wow, the youtube on the Ilangi's is incredible. If I could have landed a colony like that of 25+, it would have been the ultimate answer to stocking a large tank. Congratulations to the owner--never seen that coloration in person.


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