# Dual 75 gallon cinder block stand started - pics inside



## Steak Taco (May 18, 2008)

After way to much thought and research I've finally started my idea for a long good looking cinder block stand to support two 75 gallon tanks. 
I need to do it it small steps because I have the first tank already set-up but in the wrong place blocking where part of my stand needs to be. I'm going to make two stands butting up to each other then skin the front to look like one big stand. I think I've figured out most of the details of the stand construction only thing I'm not sure of is if I want to run both tanks into one sump to make filtering better and easier? Just worried about flooding house if overflow get blocked by something.
I think the stand should be able to hold the weight easy, it is four cinder blocks high with a 4x4 box frame attached to a 3/4" piece of plywood. I took out carpet strip and padding under stand, so blocks sit carpet then concrete slab under that.
Here is some pics I will keep it updated as I go. Any ideas on the sump would be great you can see I will have two big spots under stand to put one.


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## D-007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Looking forward to the finished project. 

Two questions/queries:
1/ What is in between the very top cinder block and the 4x4 box frame?
2/ Can we see a side view of the cinder block stack?

Regarding sump ideas; have a look at *tannable*'s thread here for a neat idea. :thumb:

Regards,
D


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## Steak Taco (May 18, 2008)

D-007 Between the top of the blocks and 4x4 is a piece of the carpet padding that I took out from under the carpet. I have a nice long four day weekend coming up so I'm hopefully going to get the first tank transfered over on new stand and I will take some more pics from front and the side.

I like the sump idea in that thread it looks like it would work good. What I'm not sure of is what size overflows or pvc is needed to get the whole thing to work properly. I like a lot of water movement in the tank and wonder if I should get one big pump and split to both tanks or two smaller pumps, so both tanks have their own pump. :-? :? :-?


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

One sump can serve many tanks. If there are two or more sumps in a system, they have to be connected so the one getting an over-share of the return water can divert some to the other sump.


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## D-007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow, I didn't know that   Have to admit I'm now intrigued ... LOL my wife just rolled her eyes when I told her.

_Steak Taco_, *tannable* didn't mention what size PVC was used but at a guess, 1Â½" PVC :-? 
Good luck with the transfer and I look forward to the pictures :thumb:

Regards,
D


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Inch and a half is the norm. A flexible ribbed tubing is better than rigid because it gives, greatly reducing the noise generated by the water running inside it. Rigid pipe especially when perfectly vertical can produce a perfect imitation of the sound of a constantly flushing toilet.


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## Steak Taco (May 18, 2008)

Mcdaphnia said:


> Inch and a half is the norm. A flexible ribbed tubing is better than rigid because it gives, greatly reducing the noise generated by the water running inside it. Rigid pipe especially when perfectly vertical can produce a perfect imitation of the sound of a constantly flushing toilet.


Can you please clarify this a little more?

So I would go 3/4 in the tank for the overflow then when do I switch to 1 1/2?

And for the return I use whatever size outlet the pump has either 3/4 or 1"?

Then when I have two tanks on same pump I just T the line and put a ball valve on each return to dial in correct flow to each tank?

Does this sound right? Plus how do You terminate your return pipe back into tank, use bushing on pvc to create more pressure, crimp pipe, or just let it free flow out of 90 or 45?

Thanks for the help. :thumb:


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Steak Taco said:


> Can you please clarify this a little more?


The overflow pipe from the bulkhead if drilled, or from the overflow box is gravity fed, so a large diameter pipe is needed. 1 1/2" is what you see on most commercial units and larger is probably not needed even on larger pumps than the average system uses. Flexible tubing also makes it much easier to service the sump and media since nothing has to be disconnected, you just move aside the lid the hose is attached to.



Steak Taco said:


> So I would go 3/4 in the tank for the overflow then when do I switch to 1 1/2?


 1 1/2 from the overflow box to the sump. or if you decide to drill the tank, from the bulkhead.



Steak Taco said:


> And for the return I use whatever size outlet the pump has either 3/4 or 1"?


 That is what I do except for systems with a lot of head or long runs. Then I use an adapter to go to larger pipe, cutting down on friction.



Steak Taco said:


> Then when I have two tanks on same pump I just T the line and put a ball valve on each return to dial in correct flow to each tank?


You should need a gate or ball valve only on the line to the "closer" tank. Closer from the tee in the sense that there is less pipe and fewer fittings than to the other tank. This is one of those setings that drift as filter media becomes more clogged etc. so you hve to tweak it once in a while.



Steak Taco said:


> Does this sound right? Plus how do You terminate your return pipe back into tank, use bushing on pvc to create more pressure, crimp pipe, or just let it free flow out of 90 or 45?
> 
> Thanks for the help. :thumb:


 You can do any of those, or add a spray bar or add the gooseneck returns that let you adjust direction with a touch, or if you are a packrat and save all those extra fittings from every powerhead you've ever bought, sift through that pile of hobby junk and find something that will work.


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## Steak Taco (May 18, 2008)

Here are some new pics. Moved the first tank on the first stand without a problem. Took the cheap particle board stand back to store and picked up the other tank and a 29 gallon for the sump. Not sure exactly how I want to do plumbing for that yet. Going to paint new tank tomorrow and hopefully place an order for a pump if I can decide on what to order.


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## D-007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for side view :thumb:

The setup looks really neat indeed. I'm looki

Oh, and thanks to your idea and pictures, my wife has now finally agreed to let me use cinderblocks.

My hat's off to you,
D


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## dogofwar (Apr 5, 2004)

Why not eliminate a stack of blocks and have both stands share the center stack?


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

dogofwar said:


> Why not eliminate a stack of blocks and have both stands share the center stack?


He could have, but not that simply since he had a tank set up he didn't want to move until the first tank was operating. Since the block are dry set not mortared, a load on one side could remotely buckle the stack. Frankly I know many people who just set up block, and maybe set some foam on it. They don't bother with plywood or rails for the shelving. I'm sure they would have taken the slight risk in stride.


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## Steak Taco (May 18, 2008)

I figure for the small cost of the blocks and wood why not just play it safe and make it worry free. I feel very comfortable that those tanks on those stands.

For the filtration I'm going to play it extra safe also. Ordered up a mag drive 18 yesterday and bought a bunch of pot scrubbers. Planning on doing tannable's sump idea :thumb: with the 5 gallon bucket and 29 gallon tank. For the overflow I'm going to run dual 1" pvc in both tanks to cover my butt so I have an extra in each tank if one happens to fail for any reason. Found some very good pictures on Bluekiller82's thread. :thumb: Once I get all the plumbing dialed in I will start on covering front with wood and some doors.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Steak Taco said:


> I figure for the small cost of the blocks and wood why not just play it safe and make it worry free. I feel very comfortable that those tanks on those stands.
> 
> For the filtration I'm going to play it extra safe also. Ordered up a mag drive 18 yesterday and bought a bunch of pot scrubbers. Planning on doing tannable's sump idea :thumb: with the 5 gallon bucket and 29 gallon tank. For the overflow I'm going to run dual 1" pvc in both tanks to cover my butt so I have an extra in each tank if one happens to fail for any reason. Found some very good pictures on Bluekiller82's thread. :thumb: Once I get all the plumbing dialed in I will start on covering front with wood and some doors.


Playing it safe makes sense. I helped tear down a club member's fish room who retired and was moving about 1000 mi. south. Everything was on cement blocks, no boards, no plywood, no styrofoam on most of the tanks. One 90 had a sheet of plywood under it, but it had one stack of blocks on the left side, one stack in the middle of the tank, and the plywood on the right side of the tank with only air underneath. The plywood was not really holding anything up since in the 20+ years the tank had been set up with 6"+ of gravel in it, the plywood had sagged about an inch.

Today's tanks are not like those so you are wise to play it safe. Super heavy tanks, no bracing since the glass was so thick the tanks didn't bow detectably when full. It was a bear carrying those tanks up the narrow obstacle rich basement stairs, and each tank seemed to have about 50# of muddy gravel and water that was missed, and it all sloshed down to the end I was carrying.

However playing it safe can backfire if you don't take some things in to account. A Mag 18 is water cooled, and it will raise the water temperature. A Mag 18 bumped up my 250 gallon tank about 10 degrees, but the bottom, back and sides were insulated with 2" styrofoam. Putting in extra overflows may backfire since slow running overflows tend to fail. Air that would have been pushed out of the "U" builds up and breaks the siphon.

I am not keen on the 5 gallon bucket. It loses space that could have held more media. Weight is concentrated on two points on the sump walls. It might be more difficult to maintain, unless you can come up with some ingenious workarounds to deal with the apparent inaccessibility of the media in the bucket. Milk bottle crates seem a better solution and are in the same price range as the bucket.


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## dogofwar (Apr 5, 2004)

Since there's a tank set up on it already, it probably makes sense to make two separate stands.

Having both tanks share a center stack of blocks isn't risky at all, especially with the plywood supports that you have set up.

What's going to fail? the blocks? Not even remotely likely.

My fishroom stands are constructed of 6" cinder blocks, two by wood, and 1/2" foam. I go three levels high and 4-6' between supports. I've never had any issues with stability (either with the current fish room or the room in my previous house that was set up for several years.


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## Turtlemaxxx (Jul 13, 2007)

I am currently "messing" with the diy sump on my 180. The first rendition has two 1 1/2" diy overflows, I'll get a pic. and an overflow with skimmer in the middle of the tank. All 3 come together into a 3" pipe. my mag 18 was too much for this configuration so it is running with a mag5 right now. the skimmer has enough flow so it doesn't have bubble build up but the 2 diy overflows have one aqua lifter for the both of them. The lifter is on the left of the tank but that isn't a problem because air is easier to pump than water so if one side gets bubbles it sucks the bubbles out and then water from both again. And by too much i mean the water was almost missing the 25 gallon tank in my stand. If i re-rought the plumbing it should be good.

-matt


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## aaxxeell (Jul 28, 2007)

thanks for the write up and great pics steak-taco' , im planning on building a fishroom in a while and now i will deff' have cinder block stands :thumb: 
cant wait till i have more space to start building :fish: :fish: :fish:


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

dogofwar said:


> ....
> 
> What's going to fail? the blocks? Not even remotely likely.
> ...


Actually a dry stacked block wall will commonly fail if the load is placed on one edge. The seams on the unsupported side will open, creating a curve in the wall and the least disturbance can cause the wall to collapse. Wedging some rebar in the holes or cutting a 2 by 4 down the fit snugly in the holes will prevent this.


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## dogofwar (Apr 5, 2004)

I'd love to see pics or some other verification that what you describe has actually happened to anyone's cinder block stand.



Mcdaphnia said:


> dogofwar said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

dogofwar said:


> I'd love to see pics or some other verification that what you describe has actually happened to anyone's cinder block stand.





dogofwar said:


> ....
> 
> What's going to fail? the blocks? Not even remotely likely.
> ...





Mcdaphnia said:


> Actually a dry stacked block wall will commonly fail if the load is placed on one edge. The seams on the unsupported side will open, creating a curve in the wall and the least disturbance can cause the wall to collapse. Wedging some rebar in the holes or cutting a 2 by 4 down the fit snugly in the holes will prevent this.


 I'm pretty sure common sense would have so far protected most people except dogofwar from putting the tank weight on an extreme edge. Obviously no one could be quick enough to do photos of a sudden collapse, just before and after shots which would not show much. But if you want to donate a tank to the demo, dogofwar, I can do the video. Or do we have any volunteers??


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## dogofwar (Apr 5, 2004)

I'm certainly not advocating setting up stands on which the corner of a tank or end of a supporting 2x4 is on the extreme edge of a block...but you're making this sound a lot risker / harder than it really is.

My current room is the third fish room that I've set up on cinder block and 2x4 stands. I have had tanks supported on 2x4s that didn't reach all the way across the width of the stack of blocks(some about 1/2 way or so)...and I have had more than one tank supported by a single block. Never had a problem. Never had any instability. Over years and years of them being set up, drained, climbed on, etc.

I'm not meaning to be a smart*ss, but if this is "common" then I'd love to hear from someone - anyone - about how their cinder block and 2x4 stand suddenly collapsed or otherwise failed because it wasn't constructed absolutely perfectly.


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## TheeMon (May 11, 2004)

dogofwar said:


> I'd love to hear from someone - anyone - about how their cinder block and 2x4 stand suddenly collapsed or otherwise failed because it wasn't constructed absolutely perfectly.


me2


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

dogofwar said:


> I'm certainly not advocating setting up stands on which the corner of a tank or end of a supporting 2x4 is on the extreme edge of a block...but you're making this sound a lot risker / harder than it really is.
> 
> My current room is the third fish room that I've set up on cinder block and 2x4 stands. I have had tanks supported on 2x4s that didn't reach all the way across the width of the stack of blocks(some about 1/2 way or so)...and I have had more than one tank supported by a single block. Never had a problem. Never had any instability. Over years and years of them being set up, drained, climbed on, etc.
> 
> I'm not meaning to be a smart*ss, but if this is "common" then I'd love to hear from someone - anyone - about how their cinder block and 2x4 stand suddenly collapsed or otherwise failed because it wasn't constructed absolutely perfectly.


You are reading in the risk level yourself. Maybe other people can misread it the same way, but I don't know how much clearer I could have been. I mentioned a cement block stand with the end post in the middle and none on one end that held a large (90 gallon) tank for decades. Cement block stands are as close to goof-proof as you can get which was the point of mentioning that example.

You are, I can only think deliberately, taking my "common" comment out of its context about dry stacked walls and transferring it to aquarium stands. You also, I think deceptively, omitted that I said it was "remote" and "slight" that this could happen with a stand. I also suggested a couple easy ways to eliminate the risk by using rebar or wood inside the voids of the wall. When I drive by older residential neighborhoods, I can see one example after another of collapsing or collapsed block retaining walls where the load is on one side. Calling it common is simply a result of living in the real world and seeing real things where it really is common.

I didn't think anyone would miss that this is with regards to dry stacked block. If the block are wet stacked with mortar, nothing is going to happen even if you only use half of the block under the tank. And the mortar gives you an opportunity to perfectly level the stand.

I am glad you are attacking me and not the person who shared his stand and accomplishments with us. He had a perfectly sound reason for doubling the center walls of the stand, because of independently setting up first one tank then the other. All I did was deflect your first unwarranted criticism. Where is your flood of contention coming from? It is all really off-topic and without your rephrasing and word play, I don't think anyone would have been confused.


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## demonsoni (Feb 10, 2006)

anyone put any 125's on cinderblocks? does the block weigh lots more than 2x4 stands?


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

demonsoni said:


> anyone put any 125's on cinderblocks? does the block weigh lots more than 2x4 stands?


 Yes to both! Many people have used the cement block aka cinderblock stands. I have put a 180 and a 120 on hollow cement blocks. I did use 4" solids right on top.


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## D-007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, I have used cinder blocks before and will be doing so with my 125g upcoming project. Yes it is heavier than say using a wood stand or wrought-iron stand.

*Steak-Taco*, any updates? any more pictures?


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## Steak Taco (May 18, 2008)

Still waiting on pump, should be in early next week. I'm going to be getting the egg crate and sand today. If I have enough time I will be starting to make the overflows and run the plumbing down to the sump area. Will post more pics hopefully by tomorrow night with some plumbing shots.


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## D-007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Cool! Looking forward to them


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## Steak Taco (May 18, 2008)

Small update - I have two of the overflows built but not painted yet want to make sure I have the height right on the overflow. I would like the water level to stay just above the trim on the tank so you can't see a gap between tank frame and water line. How much higher will water level be above the overflow intake?

I did manage to get the sump all together and I have a couple powerheads cycling water over dirty filters from another tank to seed the pot scrubbers. I copied tannable's sump idea but used two five gallon buckets and a ton of pot scrubbers plus made little stands for the buckets to sit on. Ended up using two 29 gallon tanks for sump and connected them with two 2" water bridges thanks to IrkedCitizen's idea. This will give me more overall gallons of water in system and more room for water to go if there is a power outage. My mag18 should be here on Tuesday so if everything goes right should be filtering some water by next weekend.


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## IrkedCitizen (Apr 26, 2007)

Right on right on.

How I would setup the return line would be to use tubing or flexible pvc from the return on the pump and have it go to the back and have it T/Y off at the center line of the two center stacks of cinder blocks with hard PVC to the tanks. You would then mirror the returns from the T/Y to the two different tanks this will make it so that the tanks will get equal water distribution. But you could still put ball valves after the T/Y just in case one tank is getting more flow than the other.


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## dogofwar (Apr 5, 2004)

Not "attacking" anyone. Must have mis-interpreted your post / concerns.

I started with a simple query: why an extra stack of blocks? More blocks take up more room, cost more, look uglier, etc.

I would (and have) gone without. To each his/her own. :thumb:


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

IrkedCitizen said:


> Right on right on.
> 
> How I would setup the return line would be to use tubing or flexible pvc from the return on the pump and have it go to the back and have it T/Y off at the center line of the two center stacks of cinder blocks with hard PVC to the tanks. You would then mirror the returns from the T/Y to the two different tanks this will make it so that the tanks will get equal water distribution. But you could still put ball valves after the T/Y just in case one tank is getting more flow than the other.


 In my experience, it is well worth the cost of drilling a couple holes in the dual sumps and connecting them with bulkhead fittings and pipe or tubing. Trying to balance the flow will result in your equivalent of flooding your wife's walk-in closet several times a month. Siphon tubes and water bridges will fail too, since siphons don't last forever and your first clue will be a flood. If you want to learn the hard way, BTDT! at least pick up something like this to alert you to a problem a little sooner.

http://www.thewateralarm.com/wateralarm ... Category=2

http://charlesdiliberto.tripod.com/catalog/i1.html

http://www.ingramshoppingcart.com/Water ... _p/760.htm

http://cgi.ebay.com/WATER-SENSOR-FLOOD- ... dZViewItem


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## IrkedCitizen (Apr 26, 2007)

Mcdaphnia said:


> IrkedCitizen said:
> 
> 
> > Right on right on.
> ...


I was talking about the return line being T'd off to the tanks not the water from the tanks to the sump. Getting the water to the sump won't be an issue but getting an even distribution between the tanks from one return pump can be problematic.

If it was me I would have had a 29g individual sump on each of the 75's because I don't like running more than one tank off of a wet/dry sump. But he already ordered the one pump so there is nothing that can be done now.

He can still drill the tanks and use bulkheads and pipe/tubing but if there is a leak from that part then it'd be a PITA to fix.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

IrkedCitizen said:


> I was talking about the return line being T'd off to the tanks not the water from the tanks to the sump. Getting the water to the sump won't be an issue but getting an even distribution between the tanks from one return pump can be problematic.
> 
> If it was me I would have had a 29g individual sump on each of the 75's because I don't like running more than one tank off of a wet/dry sump. But he already ordered the one pump so there is nothing that can be done now.
> 
> He can still drill the tanks and use bulkheads and pipe/tubing but if there is a leak from that part then it'd be a PITA to fix.


Controlling the return flow back to the tanks could be a great idea. Sometimes one tank has a heavier bioload, so the controls would give you the option to give one tank a bigger share of the water flow instead of an even split.

Connecting tanks has the plus of creating a larger total system, which has more water parameter stability. As you pointed out, it does have a minus. If one tank picks up a parasite or disease, then unless there is an effective UV sterilizer in the right spot in the filtration design, all the tanks will be exposed to the pathogens.

You are right that anything can go wrong, including bulkhead fittings, but bottom line, they are more reliable than valving or siphons to to keep dual sumps from "starving" one and flooding the other, and no more likely than the valve piping or siphon piping to start leaking. Fixing leaking plumbing would be no fun, but it could happen whichever of the 3 possibilities are chosen.


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## Steak Taco (May 18, 2008)

I was going to drill the tanks but I don't think there is enough room unless I can join them with no space in between them. The two tanks are touching frames and I'm hitting the back wall and almost flush where I plan on putting the front part of the stand. I thought with the bulkhead I would end up with a gap in between the tanks was I wrong? If I can keep them sitting like they are I would rather have them drilled and already found a guy to do it. So I could use a little more knowledge about bulkheads please.

With the water bridge Why do you think it would lose flow if no air can get in the pipe I would think it would stay constant? I made two of them to try and cover all my bases I really only need one to move 2400gph and I only needed 1800gph but made two encase of one failing. The openings are 5" under the water line on both tanks so I can't see any air getting in. I couldn't find very much info on the web about water bridges and the only ones I did find seemed to work great. If you have any experience or knowledge please share I would like to learn more.

This is the site that I found for info on water bridge seemed pretty neat but no good hard facts.

http://www.bio-elite.com/waterbridge.htm


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

I would be pretty uncomfortable with a snug fit bulkhead fitting between two touching tanks. I would rather screw together a plywood box the size of the two tanks or of the actual available space inside the stand and line it with pond liner.

Irked citizen suggested putting one 29 under each tank and plumbing each one independently. That does have its advantages. The cost of bulkhead fittings, gate or ball valves, and glass drilling would go a long way toward the price of a second pump. You'd still have storage space in front of each sump. You already have the 29's.

Water bridges and other devices depending on a siphon effect do lose their siphon. There are at least two ways gasses get inside the bridge. One is microbubbles that are generated by the pump. Any of these that get inside the water bridge will collect at the top of the bridge. Another is biology. Bacteria grow invisibly on all surfaces in the aquarium and produce gasses as part of their life processes. Those produced inside the bridge will collect with the microbubbles. Because the bride is opaque and the sump will eventually be closed off and dark, you won't get much algae producing oxygen bubbles.

http://gizmodo.com/346527/fish-bridge-c ... -to-use-it

I suspect you don't see much info or follow up on water bridges because they tend to be short term projects, abandoned after their disadvantages start manifesting.


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## IrkedCitizen (Apr 26, 2007)

In the other thread he had going about pump advice he didn't want to use a container that he couldn't see into from all sides. So a plywood box with pond liner in it is out of the question because he already shot down rubbermaid bins.

The pump he bought is a mag drive 18 which would flow roughly 1200-1400gph at 4-5 foot of head. On a 75g tank that is a little much. So he'd probably be better off selling the mag18 and get 2 mag 9.5 or 2 mag 12's. I told him that he jumped to purchase it too fast in the other thread without hearing what other people thought about his setup.

It's up to him where to go from here. Or he can just try the water bridges and see what happens.

I know Fmueller has his sumps on his 240g connected by a length of clear tubing to keep the water equalized between the two but he has a return pump in each sump.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

IrkedCitizen said:


> In the other thread he had going about pump advice he didn't want to use a container that he couldn't see into from all sides. So a plywood box with pond liner in it is out of the question because he already shot down rubbermaid bins.
> 
> The pump he bought is a mag drive 18 which would flow roughly 1200-1400gph at 4-5 foot of head. On a 75g tank that is a little much. So he'd probably be better off selling the mag18 and get 2 mag 9.5 or 2 mag 12's. I told him that he jumped to purchase it too fast in the other thread without hearing what other people thought about his setup.
> 
> ...


Good points. Maybe a glass 58 gallon tank the dimensions of two 29's would work better. They can be purchased by special order or even custom built. (Good DIY project too!)

It seems to me I mentioned something earlier about a Mag 18 raising the temperature of my 250 by about ten degrees. In this system I think some of that will be offset by increased evaporation. I have a couple 75's temporarily set up with filters I intended for my 125's even though they are supposed to be for 1000 gallons, and the evaporation rate is amazing. The FX5 on my 150 is supposed to be for up to a 400 gallon tank, but does not seem to have increased evaporation much or created a washing machine effect like I have in the two 75's.

I have a copy of fmueller's CD that he donated to a local fish club and they auctioned it off. Very enjoyable and informative to watch.


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## Steak Taco (May 18, 2008)

I think what I am going to do is get a float switch made for sump pump that will automatically kill the pump if the water level gets to low in the second tank. This should save my pump from burning out and stop the amount of water flowing to the top aquariums that would end up flowing back into the sump. Here is the switch: http://www.lgpc.com/Product/ItemDetail.aspx?ProductID=1330

Now that should stop the pump if the overflows stop working on main tanks and the water level gets to low in first sump so that the water bride loses siphon to the second sump or if the water bridge ever fails the second sump would obviously not have water coming to it so the sump would run dry very fast and the switch would kill pump.

Now with the amount of overflow coming back from main tanks would be the same as if the power went out. I have about 15 gallons worth of space in the first sump that would have to hold all the extra water. I'm not sure if that is enough because I haven't been able to do any tests yet due to not having plumbing done yet or the pump. If in fact the 15 or so gallons isn't enough I have room under the other main tank to fit a 22 gallon rubbermaid container that I found two of in the attic from our last move. I would put one inside the other to make it stronger and fill up around half full of water then connect this with a 1" water bridge to the first sump (the one with the filters) encase there is a power outage the extra returning water to the sump would have an extra place to go. I would keep a extra small maxijet in here to keep water moving around inside the rubbermaid container. Plus the rubbermaid container could work as the spot where I fill my tanks after water change, thus I'd be testing the water bridge once a week while making my water changes easier. Does all this make sense my brain is thinking this out way faster than my fingers can type?


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## Steak Taco (May 18, 2008)

Disregard the above post I think I'm just going to do what I should of done in the first place and make the sump out of acrylic. So I can make the sump 34x24x16 3/8" thick with all glue and materials needed for $175 cut out the door. It is a little more money but I will be able to sleep better at night knowing I'm not having a flood in the house. Who knows if I get good and comfortable working with the acrylic I might just make the overflows out of it also. I seen a nice selection of what looked like 1/4" black acrylic in the scrap bins of the plastic place. Well I'm off to petsmart to return these 29 gallons. :fish:


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## IrkedCitizen (Apr 26, 2007)

Sounds like a plan.


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## chefkeith (Sep 25, 2004)

In the 5 years+ that I've run water-bridges I've never lost a siphon. There hasn't been any noticeable gas build up in them either. Then again, my water bridges are made of clear acrylic, so atleast I'd know if there was a problem. I'm not sure I'd trust them if they weren't clear though. How would I know if I got all the air out of them initially if they weren't clear?

I will admit that after a few years the novelty of water bridges does wear off, so I don't talk about them much anymore. I'm not a cichlid keeper either, so I don't spend much time here anymore. I do think this is one of the best forums around. I also think McDaphnia is probably the most knowledgeable and experienced diy'er on the planet. So if he has advise, it is best to listen to it.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

chefkeith said:


> In the 5 years+ that I've run water-bridges I've never lost a siphon. There hasn't been any noticeable gas build up in them either. Then again, my water bridges are made of clear acrylic, so atleast I'd know if there was a problem. I'm not sure I'd trust them if they weren't clear though. How would I know if I got all the air out of them initially if they weren't clear?


 I agree if you use a water bridge or other permanent siphon, they should be clear or have a vewing port at the highest point. There is a way to tell how much air is in a tank of propane, but that method would not work on an opaque water bridge.



chefkeith said:


> I will admit that after a few years the novelty of water bridges does wear off, so I don't talk about them much anymore. I'm not a cichlid keeper either, so I don't spend much time here anymore. I do think this is one of the best forums around. I also think McDaphnia is probably the most knowledgeable and experienced diy'er on the planet. So if he has advise, it is best to listen to it.


 This is one of my favorite forums too. I still have a few tanks of cichlids spawning and two grown up sons who now raise cichids in their own houses (both Tropheus specialists), but no 2500+ gallons in over a hundred cichlid tanks anymore. A dozen 75 or larger tanks and a few small ones for grow outs is what I'm down to for now until we move.

I have picked up a lot of info over the years by attending hundreds of fish club meetings, seeing other hobbyists' set ups, and buying used equipment that I had to fix, rebuild, or salvage ending up with all those tanks the hard way, trading my fish for tanks, breeding fish to sell and then buy tanks, growing swordplants to get store credit to buy fish that I could use as breeders and buy more tanks. Sometimes I have come up with original ideas, or "original" combinations of someone else's ideas. Lots of things I had to prove for myself, but fish clubs and other hobbyists are a great source of knowledge even in the internet age. I still learn something every time I attend a fish club meeting.


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## Steak Taco (May 18, 2008)

I really do appreciate all the help!!! I could tell right away Mcdaphnia has been around the block and has a little of knowledge to share.

The acrylic sump is all together just doing a little extra sealing and putting support brace on top. Went of design on GARF site and seems to be right on. I even had a question and called # on site, a nice guy answered and cleared up small issue I had. It sure is nice having people that like to help other people out. The sump sure as heck won't win any acrylic beauty contest but for as much weldon as I have everywhere it sure should hold water.

Got the mag 18 today from big al's. So while I'm waiting for sump to cure I am messing with the overflow so I can get exact height for the pipe inside my tank. I get it to flow like crazy but then it loses siphon and I have to suck on check valve to re-start. I'm just pushing a very small amount of water from a powerhead down below tank sitting in rubbermaid container. But I thought it shouldn't lose siphon. I don't have the pipes glued together yet so I don't know if thats part of the problem or if I'm getting a small amount of air leaking around check valve, or if flow is just to slow on return. I copied the plans from this picture because I seen a lot of other people having success with it. Any ideas?

http://www.sirensongboutique.com/animals/images/overflow.gif


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## Steak Taco (May 18, 2008)

After playing with overflow for quite a while I think it is a faulty check valve. If I suck all the air out until I get water in my mouth then keep my finger over the check valve it stays siphoned and the flow is good. If I just let it be on it's own it will lose siphon after a couple minutes like it is very slowly sucking air in through valve.

I really don't like the difference between working great and flooding my house to be some cheap plastic check valve. Is the only purpose of that valve to get the siphon started? If so why not put a tee up on the top with a ball valve and suck the air out then shut off ball valve and even put threaded plug in ball valve so no air can get in. This would seem way safer than trusting that cheap check valve. Does this seem reasonable? I also tried it with no check valve and just put a cap on end of drain and started the siphon by sucking on the vent tube but that didn't seem to hold either.

While I was playing around with all this I tried the design with instead of using the U shape in the tank you put pipe down in 2" pvc inside the tank and left everything else the same and it seemed to work very well, and looks way better. Just need to get this whole check valve thing sorted out.


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## Steak Taco (May 18, 2008)

Steak Taco said:


> I really do appreciate all the help!!! I could tell right away Mcdaphnia has been around the block and has a little of knowledge to share.


I just re-read this and it should say a lot of knowledge to share.


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## remarkosmoc (Oct 19, 2005)

Thats a pretty cool setup. I have a storage room full of cinder block supports and 2x8 shelving. That's where my hospital tank sits and I've always wanted to fill it with 20L tanks but then where would I store my stuff?

On the tanks that I have with PVC overflows or overflow boxes instead of drilled I always put a airline connector at the top of the bend where air would build up and connect an aqua-lifter. Its a cheap $10 pump that pumps a few gallons an hour and does a good job of sucking the air out. Like this


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## Steak Taco (May 18, 2008)

tannable: I really like your filter idea and think that has been the smoothest part of this whole project.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

My oldest son when he was growing up loved this kind of plumbing gadgetry. He made some things that worked, and many that flooded his "fish closet" a small room off my 40' by 14' fish room. On at least one occasion he came up with something that I was sure would not work, but did. I believe he discovered every possible way to overflow tanks, drain tanks onto the floor, pump water onto the floor, and since it was usually saltwater, it left evidence behind. He built his own wet/dry filter while in grade school designed and put it together with a little help from Dad on the glass cutting and assembly, and soon bought what I was told by the owner of the shop he ordered it from probably the first commercial wet/dry aquarium filter sold in our state. He built an air lift that could lift water from a bottom tank and feed it into a tank more than two feet higher using parts from some old French Filters I had. I learned to have an open mind about Goldbergian designs, and paradoxically to reinforce my KISS philosophy that keeping designs simple helps reduce the number of possible failure points. And I learned the Fail-Safe principle, that when you plan something wherever possible you should design it so that when a component does fail, it fails into a default "safe" mode.

What I have noticed about acrylic is that "pretty" and "reliable" go together. Most of the time. I hope your acrylic project is one of the exceptions. If there are leaks, melting some acrylic shavings into Weldon to make a "blob" can make a repair that often works without passing the "pretty" test.

With the F tee as low as it is, it is possible that enough water from the A pipes is drawn through to break the siphon. I don't think so, but to test, bend pipe B over by rotating the bottom elbow until the top of pipe B is much lower in the water than it was. Then see if the water flow stops without breaking the siphon. It could be that air is leaking in through any of the connections outside of water, but the air valve is most often the failure spot. Fill the pipes with air and then submerge in water without tipping them, and see if you can spot where air is bubbling out. This is not a book, so I'm only touching on a few things. Remember the idea of this pipe trombone is to match the flow rate of the pump. It is capable of flowing faster than the pump can bring water back in (sure hope so) but as the water level drops, the siphon slows reaching an equilibrium point where outflow and inflow are the same. If the power goes out, the water level drops slightly more and the flow stops, but the siphon is preserved so that when water is pumped back in (or you pour in a glass of it) water resumes flowing out of the siphon. Here is a much more elegant siphon, using acrylic where you are using plastic pipe, but the video will give you visual proof of the same principles both designs work on.


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## chefkeith (Sep 25, 2004)

Instead of using a check-valve I just use airline tubing. I've had all kinds of problems with check-valves in the past. 
Here's a pic of how I use airline tubing to prime the overflow on my sump. I use a shopvac to suck the air out from the airline tubing, then I close the airline valve, then stick the other end of the tubing down the air chimney on the overflow. If I ever see air in the airline tubing, then I know that the overflow might need to be reprimed. Usually I can tell if there is air trapped just by seeing how good the water is flowing out of the overflows.

On my main tank overflows I don't use a airline valve. I just connect the airline tubing to a venturi intake on a powerhead pump.


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## Steak Taco (May 18, 2008)

Well the acrylic sump is officially holding water. 

Now I'm going to start playing around with pump and piping some more.


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## Steak Taco (May 18, 2008)

Here is some updated pictures of sump, overflow and returns. Finally got the overflows where I feel comfortable with them. Ended up using two different designs rolled into one. Copied the design I posted earlier exactly but have pipe inside the tank sitting in a 2" pvc pipe with a cap on bottom instead of the big U. Here is the original design.

http://www.sirensongboutique.com/animals/images/overflow.gif

I think the 2" pvc in the corner looks way better and seems to really be moving some water. Still need to make three more of these and paint them black. Plus I'm going to put J hooks on bottom of the 2" by the cap and bury the J hook under the sand and put a big rock on it so that the overflow can't move in the aquarium. I've tested it many many times and it holds a siphon every time. I have it hooked up to a maxi-jet powerhead to help keep the prime (thanks for idea chefkeith) and will have two in each tank with one being able to handle the flow by itself but using two to cover my butt encase of a problem. The nice thing about the powerhead hooked up is if one does lose siphon for some strange reason the powerhead will be shooting air in tank like crazy to let me know something is wrong.


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## remarkosmoc (Oct 19, 2005)

looks awesome :thumb: 
I"ve not seen that method of overflow before, how does it do with noise?


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

tannable75 said:


> looks awesome :thumb:
> I"ve not seen that method of overflow before, how does it do with noise?


 I've seen them, but not had one myself. I have been told and had it demonstrated that the noise factor goes down if the pipes are just a bit out of perfectly vertical. A nice thing about this design is that it is much harder for one item to completely clog the intake because of the donut shape.


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## remarkosmoc (Oct 19, 2005)

The only thing I don't like about it as in the picture is it looks easy for a critter of smaller size to get in there. That could be alleviated I suppose by making it a little taller then cutting notches into it much like you see on a tank with built in overflows. The pvc overflows I use have cross-stitching mesh around them for that.


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## Steak Taco (May 18, 2008)

tannable75 said:


> The only thing I don't like about it as in the picture is it looks easy for a critter of smaller size to get in there. That could be alleviated I suppose by making it a little taller then cutting notches into it much like you see on a tank with built in overflows. The pvc overflows I use have cross-stitching mesh around them for that.


I tried to do it like that at first but it wasn't able to handle as much water flowing from pump as it is now. As far as noise goes it isn't loud at all up by the intake, I had to drill a hole in vent cap and stuff with quilt batting. Where I am getting some noise is down where the water enters the sump. I'm trying to experiment with different lengths right where it dumps, and put a extra sponge filter from my xp3 on top of the filter to absorb some of the noise. I just got back from Lowe's and got some J hooks for the 2" pipe and it works great. Just snapped it on right at bottom above cap and sat a big rock on it and it can't move one bit.


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## Steak Taco (May 18, 2008)

The plumbing is painted, tested and working great. I will post a couple pics when the lights turn on in a couple hours. Now I'm off to go to home depot/lowes and return some extra pvc fittings, valves and to look for some ideas on getting this stand skinned with wood and find some pre-made doors. Need to hopefully hide some of the water noise coming from the sump.


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## Steak Taco (May 18, 2008)

Here are a couple pics, one up close and one of both tanks. I'm getting a bad glare from my window so I'll try and get some better up close views of the overflows after dark if anybody is interested.


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## yankz12603 (Mar 2, 2008)

nice tanks!


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## D-007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Looks really neat. To disguise the stand to make it look like a wooden one, what I'll be doing is getting some Gorilla Glue or better and gluing a wood frame to the blocks. Then I'll add paneling and doors.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

D-007 said:


> Looks really neat. To disguise the stand to make it look like a wooden one, what I'll be doing is getting some Gorilla Glue or better and gluing a wood frame to the blocks. Then I'll add paneling and doors.


 Glue Velcro to the blocks and possibly make the doors fake. Then you just pull the whole front off to work on the filter. Or, glue the wooden ends on to the blocks and Velcro their front edges.


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## Steak Taco (May 18, 2008)

Here are some more pics of stand with wood and doors on it. I still have a couple little touch ups to do but this is what it will look like. Once I'm done with the touching up I'm going to do something just to the left of the stand to maybe fit hospital/fry tanks and hide those drawers I have all my supplies in.


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## booba5 (May 3, 2008)

not bad, i like it, next project would definately be a matching canopy tho


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## D-007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Did you use a matt finish on the doors?


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## Steak Taco (May 18, 2008)

D-007 said:


> Did you use a matt finish on the doors?


I just used semi-gloss black rustoleum painters touch paint. Rolled it on with roller. It is the same stuff I used on the top of the stand and to paint the back of the tanks. I put two coats on heavy and it covered the wood nice. For the back of the tanks I put on probably 6-7 thin coats to get it to cover good. Here is a link if your interested in more info.

http://www.rustoleum.com/CBGBrand.asp?bid=3

For all the pvc I used krylon fusion black satin.


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