# I come bearing with...MORE QUESTIONS!



## pdiehm (Jul 9, 2013)

Once I get fish (tomorrow)...and here come my questions:

1) Is 25-30% water changes a week good? After I get back from disney, I will complete my stocking and have 18-19 fish (including 6 pygmy catfish). I may bump it up to 20 just cuz I like even numbers. If I have to go to 50%, would that be too much stress (I really don't want to go that high however...but I will if I need to). Filtration is an AC 110 and Eheim 2217, so pushing (at least according to the papers) around 700gph, or turning the tank just under 10x per hour.

2) Treating new water with Prime: What's the best way? Do I treat just for the water I'm adding, or do I add an amount that I would for the full 75g?

3) I am going to be using Baking Soda as a buffer to get my pH up. My tap water is 7.0 on the button. Can I mix it in a 5 gallon bucket, and fill my tank with tap water (after adding the prime), and mix in the pH buffer? Again, would I make a buffer for the tank or for just the water I'm adding? I would presume just for the water I'm adding, but presumptions lead to disasters. Example: I am removing 20G of water, I want to add 4tbsp of baking soda to a 5 gallon bucket of water, which will (at least in theory) disperse among the 7.0 water that was added, and raise that water up over 8.0?

I'm spending a lot of money (for me...for others, I'm going cheap), and want to do this as good as I can, as easily as I can, with the best interest of the fish in the water as I can.

I appreciate all the help, all the answers, and I'm positive that I'll have many many many other questions.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

75 gallon tank, correct?

1) At a minimum I would do 25% weekly. I prefer 40-50% on my tanks but that is because I am over stocked, water testing mandates it, trying to improve spawning behavior or the fish just enjoy it.

2) If adding tap water directly to the tank, the Prime instructions recommend adding enough to treat the volume of the tank and not the percentage of water changed.

3) Check out the Buffer Recipe in the Library articles for the correct procedure. I don't need to alter my water pH, KH or GH.

Do you have the test kits for GH and KH? IMO, they are more useful than messing with the pH.


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## pdiehm (Jul 9, 2013)

I don't have a gH and kH testing kit.

All I know is my tap water is 7.0 on the button. I'll take a look and see if I can figure out. Hopefully some folks here have to deal with some of the same obstacles that I'll have to.

Thanks!


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

in my opinion based on my personal experiences. i use prime and only add enough for amount of new water not entire tank. i have many tanks and many different types of fish, other than the crushed coral in my african tanks i dont use any buffers like baking soda. Most fish will adapt to your water. Keep in mind that water always wants to go back to its natural state. By using buffers, chemicals, etc.. You are just fighting an uphill battle to keep the water there. Not only is it a lot of extra work but it's also a lot of extra money. You will always have to use prime or some type of the dechlorinator when adding water from the tap that doesn't change, But as I said as far as buffers and chemicals I personally don't believe in using them never have and all my fish are thriving. a perfect example is my colony of frontosas. I bought them from someone who kept Them in very high pH and very hard water. PH was 9.0 and hardness was 26. i let them adapt to my water which is under 8.0 for pH and hardness is well under 26.They do great and are even attempting to breed. When adapting fish to your water there is a whole process that must be done. It has to be done slowly and not all at once. In conclusion I would just like to say as I said in the beginning, This is my opinion based on my experiences everyone has different opinions and experiences on these matters and I am not discarding anyone else's methods. I am just trying to inform the op of my methods and beliefs.good luck and have fun


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## pdiehm (Jul 9, 2013)

So treating the new water with prime and just adding 7.0 ph water to 50-60% 8.2 ph is ok? I mean, the new water will buffer up to 8.2 or so in 24 hours because of the limestone.

I just hear about how fluctuations in ph is bad an could kill the fish, so i thought adding neutral water to 8.2 water would be a big fluctuation, albeit for a short period of time


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

so the limestone alone keeps you 7.0 water at 8.2 or are u adding other things also?


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

if i understand your post u are raising water to 8.0 with baking soda to add to the tank which is 8.2? if your tap is 7.0 and u do a 20% water change u will bring ph down to 8.0. the next day another 20% would bring it down to 7.8 and so on. this is gradual enough not to harm fish. my only other question is how much limestone is in there? the limestone will raise it a little bit, but mostly just keep it where it is. so unless u got a ton of limestone that alone will not cause a major shift. i hope this makes sense


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## pdiehm (Jul 9, 2013)

100 lb of texas holey rock.

Right now with just the rocks, the water is 8.0-8.2. I didnt make a buffer while cycling. Just let the rock do its thing. I am just worried that adding 20g (55g of 8.0-8.2) of 7.0 ph water will cause a big ph fluctuation and harm the fish. Baking soda puts the water at 8.2 or so and no ph difference occurs. While thats really what we want, i also want whats easiest for me and healthiest for the fish.


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## anthraxx4200 (Aug 16, 2012)

ime its best to just not play with water conditions ph wise. most commercially bred fish are suitable to a wide range of conditions. i personally gave up on water conditioners as well. the fish never really seemed to mind it and it doesnt negatively effect my fry or other little guys. just my two cents here. dont worry about the minor details and i think it will be easier.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

well put anthrax. my belief also. i was basicslly trying to say the same thing, but got caught up in the conversation


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## pdiehm (Jul 9, 2013)

sumthinfishy said:


> well put anthrax. my belief also. i was basicslly trying to say the same thing, but got caught up in the conversation


alright, I'll skip buffering the new water and just prime 20-25 gallons of new water every other week or so. Simple enough 

:fish:

I do apologize, just trying to understand what I need to be doing with the neutral tap water. thanks everyone, and anyone else who has ideas, feel free to chime in :thumb:


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## walzon1 (Jun 17, 2013)

I agree don't mess with the PH unless you have to meaning your fish are not acting right. I treat total volume with prime every water change usually half a cap before the water is added then the other half after. You can't really overdose with prime I also use it if I think I am having a mini cycle in 2x tank volume doses every other day, never had a problem.

Your stocking levels will be high so I would do 30 percent a week to start. I also change water for aquarium volume not what the total tank is supposed to hold. For example on my 40 I calculated that after sand and decorations I only have 30g of actual water. Do this by measuring the tanks dimensions from where you keep your water filled to the top of the sand and then use a tank volume calculator. This is always good to know when you are medicating as well.

Keep an eye on your Nitrate levels before and after a water change and adjust if necessary, as soon as you hit red (40 ppm) on your test kit you will have 2 choices, either step up the water changes, meaning change 30% every 3-4 days instead of weekly, or maybe going to 50-80% water changes. At these higher water change levels I recommend using the bucket method. Get bucket(or trash can) get a cheap heater, and a water pump good enough head pressure to pump back to the aquarium. Treat the water, run the heat, run the pump to mix it for a couple hours and get the water within a couple degrees of your tank, then pump it in.


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## notchback65 (Apr 3, 2013)

+ 1 on what walzon1 said :thumb:


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## pdiehm (Jul 9, 2013)

walzon1 said:


> I agree don't mess with the PH unless you have to meaning your fish are not acting right. I treat total volume with prime every water change usually half a cap before the water is added then the other half after. You can't really overdose with prime I also use it if I think I am having a mini cycle in 2x tank volume doses every other day, never had a problem.
> 
> Your stocking levels will be high so I would do 30 percent a week to start. I also change water for aquarium volume not what the total tank is supposed to hold. For example on my 40 I calculated that after sand and decorations I only have 30g of actual water. Do this by measuring the tanks dimensions from where you keep your water filled to the top of the sand and then use a tank volume calculator. This is always good to know when you are medicating as well.
> 
> Keep an eye on your Nitrate levels before and after a water change and adjust if necessary, as soon as you hit red (40 ppm) on your test kit you will have 2 choices, either step up the water changes, meaning change 30% every 3-4 days instead of weekly, or maybe going to 50-80% water changes. At these higher water change levels I recommend using the bucket method. Get bucket(or trash can) get a cheap heater, and a water pump good enough head pressure to pump back to the aquarium. Treat the water, run the heat, run the pump to mix it for a couple hours and get the water within a couple degrees of your tank, then pump it in.


thanks. I have a python water changer, and grabbed a thermometer to get me close to 78F.

Tested my nitrates tonight, and are at 40ppm. Going to do a 50% change tomorrow morning before the fish arrive. I haven't changed my water since the cycle was complete, so it may take a few water changes to get the nitrates down to 20 (at least my understanding).

Eventually, I would love to get a 50 gallon trash can, and a pump, unfortunately that's not in my field of knowledge, so I'll have to google what kind of water pumps would work best for this.


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## notchback65 (Apr 3, 2013)

32 gallon brute trash can and a mag drive 5 pump works for me! :thumb:


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## walzon1 (Jun 17, 2013)

Just drain it till there is like an inch left of water on the bottom of the tank and fill it, that will get rid of almost all nitrate. Try and get Nitrates down as much as you can before the fish arrive.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

walzon1 said:


> I agree don't mess with the PH unless you have to meaning your fish are not acting right. I treat total volume with prime every water change usually half a cap before the water is added then the other half after. You can't really overdose with prime I also use it if I think I am having a mini cycle in 2x tank volume doses every other day, never had a problem.
> 
> I believe that u can add to much prime. it takes a lot, i think it takes like 5x the amount to be to much, but nonetheless it can happen. if u are doing frequent water changes and dosing for complete tank rather than new water u could probably end up with to much.


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## pdiehm (Jul 9, 2013)

walzon1 said:


> Just drain it till there is like an inch left of water on the bottom of the tank and fill it, that will get rid of almost all nitrate. Try and get Nitrates down as much as you can before the fish arrive.


About 2/3's drained. the cold water out of my tap is 74 or so, any hot water mix will bring it up to 80-82...3 hours from fish arrival.

what i found out is about an hour after the water was in the tank, the ph was approximately 7.6. 6 hours it was 8.0. Gives me some comfort that I don't need to mix buffers in 5g buckets with every water change. The limestone rock worked quicker than I thought. For some reason I thought it took a few days for the limestone to kick in and raise the ph, whereas it appears to kick in almost immediately. I will be picking up a bag of crushed coral and a media bag for the AC 110


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

This is why a gH and kH kit is important. I highly doubt your holey rock can raise your pH that high or quickly.

My pH out of the tap is 7.4. After sitting for 24 hours it's at 8.4. My kH is very high, causing the pH to rise. It also has to do with water being oxygenated. It was explained in an old post to me over a year ago. I just don't feel like looking for it. Sorry.

My fish don't respond negatively to larger water changes(50%), but struggle with a quick switch. Found this out when moving a small fish to a newly setup hospital tank last year. I have no chlorine, but still use Prime for the slime coat. I dose enough for the whole tank. It's highly concentrated, and will last you a long time.

I would suggest investing in a gH/kH kit, or having it tested at an LFS. You probably don't need any crushed coral or buffers.

And let the nitrates be your guide to water changes. I like 20 ppm.


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## pdiehm (Jul 9, 2013)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> This is why a gH and kH kit is important. I highly doubt your holey rock can raise your pH that high or quickly.
> 
> My pH out of the tap is 7.4. After sitting for 24 hours it's at 8.4. My kH is very high, causing the pH to rise. It also has to do with water being oxygenated. It was explained in an old post to me over a year ago. I just don't feel like looking for it. Sorry.
> 
> ...


Just did a 90% change, nitrates still around 40ppm. Probably will do a 40-50% change Sunday, and another on Wednesday in an attempt to get the nitrates to 20.

Going to run out at lunch and see if Petco/Petsmart/PetKare have a gh/kh test kit. I don't see any online, so I'll probably have to order one online.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

to simplify, and in conclusion i would keep a few basic things in mind. (1) Water wants to go back to its original state to try to keep it in any other state is going to be a struggle and a money pit. (2) Most fish will adapt to water conditions as they are(Within reason). (3) It's all about keeping it constant. Fish need it to be constant to be healthy, not changing all the time. The easiest way to keep a constant is not to mess with in the first place. i know this is kind of a general statement but I'm just trying to sum it all up for you in an easy simple fashion. Sometimes with all the advice from all the different people things and get kind of confusing. Good luck and have fun. Remember figuring these things out and learning things as we go is part of the fun of the hobby. If there was no challenge in it i think it wouldne boring. dont u?


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## walzon1 (Jun 17, 2013)

wait a minute somethings wrong you did a 90% change and nitrate still 40ppm, did you already add the fish?

sounds like you are not using the test kit correctly 90% should put you around 5-10 mark easily. First make you are using the test kit as directed shaking the bottly 2 30 sec and the vile for a minute after testing then waiting 5 minutes. Also check the nitrates out of tap to make sure they are 0, should be 0 but some get a small reading.


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## pdiehm (Jul 9, 2013)

walzon1 said:


> wait a minute somethings wrong you did a 90% change and nitrate still 40ppm, did you already add the fish?
> 
> sounds like you are not using the test kit correctly 90% should put you around 5-10 mark easily. First make you are using the test kit as directed shaking the bottly 2 30 sec and the vile for a minute after testing then waiting 5 minutes. Also check the nitrates out of tap to make sure they are 0, should be 0 but some get a small reading.


well...tested the tap and it's between 10-20ppm. So that may explain why the nitrates in the tank are double what they should be. My cycled betta 5g also has 40ppm nitrates.


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## pdiehm (Jul 9, 2013)

Had water tested at the store.

Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrites 0 ppm
Nitrates 10 ppm
pH 7.0
gH/kH was 7.0

Guy at the store said I'll need to use a buffer in order to get the most color from the cichlids. He recommended proper ph 8.2 along with a cichlid salt. I asked about using baking soda, and he said baking soda won't keep the water at 8.2, and will fall. Another item I saw was Seachem Malawi/Victorian buffer, but that also recommended use of a cichlid salt.

If I get a 20-30 tub, dechlorinate with Prime, and basing on 20 gallons water, add:

4 teaspoons baking soda
4 teaspoons marine (aquarium) salt
4 tablespoons epsom salt

Will that not also work to get the ph, kh and gh where it needs to be? He said my gh needs to be around 12 drops...I'll be honest, I never thought about the hardness of the water. Figured if pH was good, the rest would fall into place.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

i will say it once again. there is no need to waste your time and money with buffers. He is trying to get you to buy things at the store. Water will always go back to its natural state you will constantly fight to keep it at anything other than that. Cichlids you are buying from the store are not from Lake Malawi or Victoria they were bred here in the states in the same water. Your Cichlid will color just fine in your water as it is PH wise. i have a 240 gallon mixed African tank that is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I used nothing other than crushed coral and dechlorinater. Do not fall victim to the misinformation you receive from your local LFs. They just want your money. Again this is just my opinion based on my experience you don't have to listen to it thats up to u


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## pdiehm (Jul 9, 2013)

sumthinfishy said:


> i will say it once again. there is no need to waste your time and money with buffers. He is trying to get you to buy things at the store. Water will always go back to its natural state you will constantly fight to keep it at anything other than that. Cichlids you are buying from the store are not from Lake Malawi or Victoria they were bred here in the states in the same water. Your Cichlid will color just fine in your water as it is PH wise. i have a 240 gallon mixed African tank that is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I used nothing other than crushed coral and dechlorinater. Do not fall victim to the misinformation you receive from your local LFs. They just want your money. Again this is just my opinion based on my experience you don't have to listen to it thats up to u


I hear ya.

Just tested the water for ammonia and nitrites. As expected, I have an ammonia spike of about .5, so tomorrow night (or morning), I'll do a 50% water change.

I am just hopeful that I didn't get a false positive on being cycled because of having nitrates in my tap water.


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## pdiehm (Jul 9, 2013)

Friend of mine gave me a chemi-pure elite bag to put in my filter. Said our area has nitrates and this will remove them from the water but not remove the nitrate bacteria. He used some organic and biological terms that i didnt grasp. Replace every 6 months.

Put that in at about 6 pm. Tested just now and the nitrates were at 20ppm. Ammonia at 0 and nitrites at 0


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I believe that Purigen(Seachem) will aid in keeping nitrates down. Seachem Prime can be used to 'detoxify' nitrates. I've read, here on the forum, that it's effective for 4 days. A member on here has the same problem as you with nitrates out of the tap. Not sure how they're battling it. I believe it's 'underwatergirl.' Don't quote me on that...


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