# Stocking Levels



## Timkat4867 (Jan 11, 2008)

I have an 80 gallon bow front that has been running for 4 months now,all with Mbunas and I have it stocked pretty well, but I want to add at least 4 more juveniles in the near future. The tank is well filtered, with (1) filstar XP2 and (1) XP3 with weekly water changes of at least 30 gallons. They are flourishing and the zebras produced fry last week.

My stocking list is: 2 red zebras, 1 cobalt zebra, 1 albino scolofi, 2 kenyi, 1 johanni, 2 Melanochromis auratus, 2 electric Blue haps, 3 yellow labs, 4 demasoni juveniles, 1 elongatus, 1 crabro, and 1 pleco

I dont want to push it, but would I be able to get more in, and if so, how much?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Well, if I were you, I'd work on the stock I already have in the tank before going any further.

What do you want from the tank?

Would you like to get into some breeding and distribute some fry, or do you just want a colourful nice tank to look at?

If you're interested in breeding, there are quite a few changes you need to make.

The red zebras will crossbreed with the Cobalt zebra. Red zebras will crossbreed with Yellow labs. The singles of a species that you have may interfere with breeding for the others that you do have a male and female of a species. None of these are "pairing" fish, and shouldn't ever be kept in groups of two per species. They are harem breeders, and require 1 male to 3-4 females of a species. M. auratus are wickedly aggressive, and males may require more than the mentioned 3-4 females. Demasoni should never be kept in groups smaller than 12, unless you choose to only keep one. 4 will eventually become 1, as they mature fully.

If you just want alot of colour, I would go for an all male tank, and remove _all_ females.

Sooooo...Ideally for an 80G tank, if you choose to go with breeding groups, I wouldn't keep more than 4-5 species - max. I wouldn't add any fish until I got rid of some.

As it is, this will be a highly aggressive tank as these fish all fully mature, and will likely present you with lots of problems.

Kim


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## Timkat4867 (Jan 11, 2008)

Thanks for your advise cichlidaholic.

What I really want from the tank is a pretty tank to look at and to breed them as well.

I knew they are harem breeders, but when I started out, I never thought that I would have any success breeding them so I didnt bother to start out with numbers like you suggested. On top of that, I have friends who upon seeing the tank, went out and bought me singles of certain species, as gifts, so thus my tank came to have such pairs, and not groups.

But since my zebras have had fry, im gung-ho about breeding them.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Okay, then! You've been bitten by the bug just like all the rest of us!

You need to decide on 5 species to keep in this tank, no more than 6, and you need to expand on those groups and remove all the extras/singles.

I've listed the ones you _don't_ need to house together (if you're breeding) in my post above, so this may help a bit when making your decisions about what to keep and what not to keep.

I wouldn't let those zebra fry that you have right now leave the tank, unless you're certain you witnessed the whole spawn between a male and female red zebra...Keep in mind that the spawns can take hours!

Kim


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## Timkat4867 (Jan 11, 2008)

About those fry,

I didnt witness the whole spawn, I came home from work one day and the female was holding.
So I removed her into a separate tank. 
Unfortunately I neglected to cover the top, and she jumped out and died overnight.
But I managed to strip the eggs from her mouth, and miraculously they survived. 
Actually, they just started to free swim this morning.

why do you say

I wouldn't let those zebra fry that you have right now leave the tank, unless you're certain you witnessed the whole spawn between a male and female red zebra...Keep in mind that the spawns can take hours!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Because your zebras could have cross bred with another species in your tank and you have possible hybrids. Many people consider distributing hybrids into the hobby to be unethical. A local auction recently banned them from the auction (maybe that's typical, not sure).


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## Timkat4867 (Jan 11, 2008)

Yeah, I agree

But Im pretty sure they are pure reds.

The male that I have is the bully of the tank, and I noticed him courting the female countless times. She even was in the cave that he meticulously dug out after she collected eggs, and the male would drive away any other fish who got near.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Timkat4867 said:


> But Im pretty sure they are pure reds.
> 
> The male that I have is the bully of the tank, and I noticed him courting the female countless times. She even was in the cave that he meticulously dug out after she collected eggs, and the male would drive away any other fish who got near.


Because of your stocking with the small groups and singles of a species, there is no way to be entirely sure.

Too much potential for crossbreeding there to even begin to be certain, and some highly aggressive fish, so "dominancy" would be up for grabs every time a female is ready to spawn. :wink:

Kim


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## Timkat4867 (Jan 11, 2008)

Thats true also,

I guess I will have to wait and see.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The thing I didn't realize is that you still can't tell after the fry are born, or even after they grow up. Hybrid fry can look exactly like either parent. Cichlidaholic tells about some "perfect" yellow labs that turned out to be hybrids...they had fry exhibiting red zebra characteristics, even though the parents did not.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

You can't always tell, that's for sure. They can take on the characteristics of one or both of their parents, unfortunately.

It would be great if you could always tell by looking!

Kim


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## Timkat4867 (Jan 11, 2008)

So,
lets say, I got rid of some of the singles in my tank, and added some more of the ones i already have.

So it looked like this,

4 cobalts, 4 albinos, 5 labs, 4 reds, 12 demasoni, 1 johanni, 1 elongatus, 1 pleco

would that give me what I needed at least to alleviate the problems you forsee and probably have better chances to breed?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Not quite...

You'd still have the single johanni and elongatus, and you'd still have all the zebra variants that could crossbreed, as well as the Yellow labs and red zebras that can crossbreed.

From what you have to work with, this is what I would keep:

Cobalts (up the group to 6)
Yellow labs (up the group to 6)
Demasoni (up the group to 15-18)

This would minimize your risk for crossbreeding, and still look really nice.

Then, if you wanted one more species for another "colour", you could go with a group of 6 snow white socolofi.

Kim


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## Timkat4867 (Jan 11, 2008)

Ok, lets say I did that with the 6 snow whites.

that ups my total to 33 fish in a 80 gallon.

That wouldnt be too much load for the filters?


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## teqvet (Mar 24, 2008)

As long as you're close to 10xgph, then filtration shouldn't be an issue.


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## Timkat4867 (Jan 11, 2008)

On a side note,

Before I started to stock my tank, my wife caught eye of some young frontosas in the pet store. 
She wanted one to add to the tank with the mbunas I was getting but I refused her many attempts
to get a fish I didnt know much about, only that they get really big, and that they come from different lakes. And to this day she insists on getting them, but I tell her they arent compatible, and we wont be getting any.

Am I correct on saying that mbunas and frontosas arent compatible?


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## DMWave45 (Jan 22, 2008)

Yes you would be correct in saying that. I've never tried it but i'm sure there have been people succesful in doing so but frontosa would grow much larger than any mbuna and would have a good chance of eating them. Also, a good chunk of mbuna are herbivores and frontosa need a carnivore diet.


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## Timkat4867 (Jan 11, 2008)

Thanks,
I thought so.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I am sooooo NOT a front expert. But if it will help dissuade the Mrs., I understand they need to be in groups, large tanks (min 6 feet?), and are best kept in a species tank. This is because they are easily stressed by rambunctious fish and will eat anything smaller than they are...which is most everything.


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## Timkat4867 (Jan 11, 2008)

I have decided to follow cichlidaholics advise on getting rid of some of the single species in my tank and putting more groups of females in.

What would you recommend,

adding them all at one time, like:

6 cobalts, 6 labs, 12 demasoni, 6 snow whites

or

3 cobalts, 3 labs, 6 dems, 3 snows at one time, and then the following week (or a later time) the rest,

or

take the time and add one species of 6 one week, and then another group another time, and so forth.

If this makes sense to you, what would you recommend?

Tim


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Anytime I have an option, I add one species at a time, starting with the least aggressive of the bunch, which in your case would be the yellow labs. I let them settle in for a week, then add the next group - again going with the least aggressive.

I would pretty much lump the Cobalt, socolofi and demasoni in the same group aggression wise, so the next group for you would be up for grabs.

I think I'd go with 4 Cobalts, 5 Yellow labs and 4 socolofi. You definitely need the 12 demasoni, not 6. Because of their conspecific aggression, less than 12 could be a disaster.

Kim


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## Timkat4867 (Jan 11, 2008)

Not to jump between subjects,

but I have so many questions.

About the "unknown fry" that I have, 
the other night I noticed one of the fry was dead. I dont know why, but I figured that since they are so young and so small like 1/4", it is inevitable that some fry will die in any bunch.

But, ever since they were eggs, I put them in a separate 10 gallon tank that I filled up with water from the main tank. never the less it wasnt properly cycled, For I didnt expect them to breed, but I did what i could to save them.
Every week I change a tiny bit of the water to keep it fresh. I dont use dechlorinator because over here in bermuda, the water isnt treated with chemicals, for we rely on rainwater for everything, but I know that might not make a difference. But this morning I tested the water in the fry tank and the nitrite levels were rising a bit.

Naturally I want all the little buggers survive to be healthy.

Do you think the nitrite couldve killed it? or do young fry bully each other to death like adults?

Also I noticed that when i put food in the tank using the methods that ones here have suggested, they are not readily eating.

Starvation?


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## Timkat4867 (Jan 11, 2008)

Thanks,

that sounds good. 
I wasnt going only for 6 dems though, I was going to add 8 more to the four i have to make it 12, 
but the more I think of it, I might go for 15. Why settle for the field goal, when you can score a TD?

By the way, I know it varies in different states,whats the average rate for a demasoni in the states?

Over here its $26.00 each and $11.00 for like labs, cobalts and the like.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Anytime you add fish you want to keep to a tank that isn't cycled, you need to monitor the water parameters daily and be prepared to do very frequent water changes. So, yes, water quality is likely an issue as far as losing the fry.

New fry take a couple of days to figure out the eating thing, so it's easy to contribute to the waste in the tank if you're not careful and diligent with water changes.

I'm in Canada - not the US, but demasoni prices vary everywhere. When I bred them and sold them, I sold them at 12 for $50. I've seen them in the LFS here for anywhere from $15-22...And not the best quality, either!

If you can find a local breeder and hook up with them, you'll save yourself alot of money!

Kim


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## Timkat4867 (Jan 11, 2008)

Thats good advice,

however we have only 2 fish dealers on the island, and we are a very small island (21 square miles), and I have never seen demasonis for sale (since *** been in the hobby 7 months) so I had to ask them to import them.

But i hope to change all that.

Tim


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## Timkat4867 (Jan 11, 2008)

I must say, thanks for all your suggestions, and advice,
this forum is great! you have really heightened my appreciation for these magnificent animals,

cichlidaholic, Dj ransome, and all who gave me advice, thank you!

Im going to the pet store tommorrow and blow over 100 bucks on these guys!

and you say *** been bitten by the bug?

*** got the full blown disease!


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

We'll expect pics after your shopping trip! :thumb:

Good luck!

Kim


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