# New DIY stand for 75g



## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

Hi, I am starting on a 75g (48'x18') stand project. I am thinking of using 4x4in square pillars on the corners. 2x4 centered front and back. what I am considering is box frames top and bottom and how to integrate this seamlessly with the pillars. Lastly, a flat table top overhanging the tank about two inches; the pillars will be center over the tank corners. I was thinking of having the bottom raised about 4 inches or so above the floor. the top will be about 40in above the floor. I will skin at least three sides. I have a concept design to get started, but think it needs a little work. Suggestion welcome...


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

I found an example on the web in the direction i'm thinking. My question is, what span is acceptable for a 75 gallon without extra support. I would simply add a center leg but would prefer an open center.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/47 ... 53e82f.jpg

second question; I'm a little puzzed on a effective way to have continuous legs from the top to floor and effectively attach the top and bottom frames?


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

HiReZ said:


> I found an example on the web in the direction i'm thinking. My question is, what span is acceptable for a 75 gallon without extra support.


Depends on what size (dimensions) lumber you are using to make the span. A 2 x 6 is capable of carrying more load than a 2 x 4.

The tank should have support all the way around where the bottom frame of the tank is.



HiReZ said:


> I would simply add a center leg but would prefer an open center.
> https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/47 ... 53e82f.jpg
> 
> second question; I'm a little puzzed on a effective way to have continuous legs from the top to floor and effectively attach the top and bottom frames?


I've seen 2 x 4 lumber used as the outside uprights attached to the top frame, then shorter lengths of 2 x 4 (inside uprights) are placed underneath the top frame (all the way to the floor) so that they are carrying the weight/load ... and the fasteners used to tie them to the outside uprights are NOT in "shear" (... to avoid the fasteners carrying the load rather than the legs)

BTW - I'm NOT suggesting that you use 2 x 4 lumber for that size tank ... but it does work fine on my 55 ...


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

BTW - if you want to solid 4 x 4's for the legs you could always trim out a ledge for the top frame to sit on ... :wink:


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## Pdxmonkeyboy (Oct 17, 2016)

just as an FYI... you can absolutely ditch the 4x4 on the corners, completely unnecessary. 2x6 horizontals will easily carry the load of your tank without a center vertical brace. I just finished a 4 foot long 90 gallon stand using this method. if you are worried about sheer stress then use "construction" screws not the black or gold drywall screws. they have much higher sheer ratings. Those, combined with some wood glue and you are solid!.

Cheers


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> just as an FYI... you can absolutely ditch the 4x4 on the corners, completely unnecessary. 2x6 horizontals will easily carry the load of your tank without a center vertical brace.


Necessity is not my motivation!  
I have other funiture with 6" legs. I like the look of the thick legs and wanted to replicate this in a way. I think 4x4 will accomplish this while providing more than sufficient strength.
What I gather from the above advice is to have peace of mind with no center support (4x2 in my concept) I should use 2x6 horizontals. Would 2x2 then be sufficient for the bottom frame to provide stability and floor say 5 inches from the ground?
I was thinking of having the tank span across the legs by half with smaller horizontal support. I like the idea of creating a ledge in the legs for the tank. If I follow you mean cut say 2x6 notch out of the inside corners of the legs then the 2x6 (2x4 with center support) frame would sit on the notched ledge and the tank on top of that. so the tank supported by the 2x6 square frame would then be supported by four 2x2 platforms at the corners. all held together with construction screws.


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## Pdxmonkeyboy (Oct 17, 2016)

ummm you lost me there in your description. "having the tank span across the legs by half?"

I have done quite a lot of furniture building so there is a myriad of ways to go about this.

If thought you were going to put doors on the front like most stands. If that is the case my suggestion was ditch the central support and just use 2x6 for your horizontals.

now... if it's going to be open in front.. like a book shelf.. I would still ditch the middle vertical support beam. it is going to take away from the look of the stand. basically making two rectangles when you look at it. It just won't look good, your eye will always be drawn to that center strut.

I think it is dawning on me now, you want the stand to look like craftsman style furniture.. big thick legs, the sheeting on the inside..

If that is the case, then yes, I would "cut a notch" (called a mortise) in the 4 x 4 and then secure the 2x6 on the inside corners of the 4x4. Google "half lap joint" and you will see what I'm talking about.

in regards to the bottom frame, it really does little more than keep the legs from wobbling. in terms of aesthetics, if you had a horizontal 2x6 for the top brace I would probably make the bottom skirt or brace out of 1x4 cut down to 3" wide. 2x2 is only 1 1/2 inches square. it will look odd as a bottom support not to mention that 2x2 are actually straight, and stay straighy is notoriously difficult.

and yes, it can be a couple inches of the ground.

so anywho.. is the case going to be open in the front? and do you have a table saw and circular saw?


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

> "having the tank span across the legs by half?"


I mean if I use a 4x4 then the tank sits on a 2x2 corner of the 4xr


> I think it is dawning on me now, you want the stand to look like craftsman style furniture.. big thick legs, the sheeting on the inside..


Yes, now you're on the mark



> is the case going to be open in the front? and do you have a table saw and circular saw


Yes, I want it open , but perhaps with the option later to add doors if I need to hide the mess inside.


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

So I don't get the mortise, and don't know how I'd do that.
The half lap sounds simple, but if I cut a 2x2 corner out of the 4x4 then only one 2x6 would fit. Then do I make 45 degree edges on the 2x6s then put that in the 4x4 corner?


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

one more question: Are 4x4 feet enough surface area to distribute the weight of the filled tank? if not how could I improve weight distribution without modifying the concept too much?


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

HiReZ said:


> So I don't get the mortise, and don't know how I'd do that.


Lots of ways to do it ...

If you have a handheld circular saw, mark your line where you want the top frame to sit on the 4 x 4 and set your depth (less than the entire cross-section of the 4 x 4) and then run the saw across it.

Then if you are using 2 x 6 as the top frame for the stand to sit on, then stand the 4 x 4 up (you probably need to clamp it to something) and cut it with a good old-fashioned hand saw. Alternatively, you could use a wood chisel to finish the notch.



HiReZ said:


> The half lap sounds simple, but if I cut a 2x2 corner out of the 4x4 then only one 2x6 would fit.


Yeah ... I wouldn't do it like that ....

Make the top frame so the long pieces are outside, and the short pieces are inboard of them. Notch each 4 x 4 all the way across (front to back) and you'll have all pieces of the top frame (length and depth) sitting on the 4 x 4 legs.



HiReZ said:


> Then do I make 45 degree edges on the 2x6s then put that in the 4x4 corner?


Again, I sure wouldn't ...


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

HiReZ said:


> one more question: Are 4x4 feet enough surface area to distribute the weight of the filled tank?


If the tank complete (tank, substrate, water, stand, equipment) weighs 800 lbs it would be a 16 lbs/ sq. in. load on your floor ...

Of course, I have no idea where you are placing it.



HiReZ said:


> ... if not how could I improve weight distribution without modifying the concept too much?


Notch the bottoms of the 4 x 4's and duplicate the top frame on the base so that it bears some of the load as well as the legs ...


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

BTW - you really need to answer the question as to what tools you have or have access to ... then the answers can be tailored to the equipment you have available.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Some general info that may be of use:

Reef Tank Stands - A Design Guide | gmacreef


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

some clarification:

I plan that I think has not quite been clear is I want the tank frame inside the legs, see pic. It sound to me to do what I want with the half lap technique then I need bigger legs so that the 2xX frame pieces will have enough material to rest in.
and i have access to circular saw, table saw, and jigsaw


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

HiReZ said:


> some clarification:
> 
> I plan that I think has not quite been clear is I want the tank frame inside the legs, see pic.


Ahh ... got it now.



HiReZ said:


> It sound to me to do what I want with the half lap technique then I need bigger legs so that the 2xX frame pieces will have enough material to rest in.


So it would seem ...

What type of wood are you planning on using for this ?



HiReZ said:


> and i have access to circular saw, table saw, and jigsaw


 :thumb:


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Make the notches in the legs 2" x 2" ... gives you 2" of the long members resting on the 4 x 4's and 1/2" of the short members resting on the 4 x 4's ... assuming you'll use 2 x _ lumber for the top frame.

And I'd use 2" x 3" (or 4") metal corner braces on the inside of the top frame.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

A caveat about 4" by 4" lumber is that it is frequently used as posts. It is treated for that purpose with chemicals and can emit some of them (e.g. formaldehyde) if used indoors. It is also more prone to bowing and twisting than other dimension lumber. If you must use it for appearance, consider using hardwood, at least poplar, rather than SPF softwoods. Boxing, made from 1 by 4's to create the look of a 4" post is another possibility, but it could complicate the stand design.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Mcdaphnia said:


> A caveat about 4" by 4" lumber is that it is frequently used as posts. It is treated for that purpose with chemicals and can emit some of them (e.g. formaldehyde) if used indoors. It is also more prone to bowing and twisting than other dimension lumber.


My second edit to my next to the last post asked _"What type of wood are you planning on using ?"_

I wouldn't use PT lumber on a stand myself for the reasons you state.

Unfortunately, I was not able to actually finish the edit in the insanely short time allowed for editing posts (a minute or so ?) ... and forgot to include that question in my last post ...

Is there is some reason that the time to edit posts is so short ?



Mcdaphnia said:


> If you must use it for appearance, consider using hardwood, at least poplar, rather than SPF softwoods. Boxing, made from 1 by 4's to create the look of a 4" post is another possibility, but it could complicate the stand design.


 :thumb:

Skinning a couple of 2 x 4's used for legs with either some nice hardwood plywood or actual boards wouldn't be all that tough, considering he has a table saw to do the 45 degree mitre cuts.


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

I think I'll use pine. Ivan get 4x4 raw pine.
For a half lap on 2 x X what would be the needed overlap? Double? So I'm lookin at 6x6 legs? Would it be possible to half lap the 2x6 as well and get away with less?


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Clarification (in bold)



wryan said:


> Make the notches in the legs 2" x 2" ... gives you *1 1/2" (wide) x 2" (deep)* of the long members resting on the 4 x 4's and *1/2" (deep) x 1 1/2" (wide)* of the short members resting on the 4 x 4's ... assuming you'll use 2 x _ lumber for the top frame. ...


Above assumes using a plain butt joint.


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

Yes, I forget that a 2x is 1.5in. This is enough support for a half lap?


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

HiReZ said:


> Yes, I forget that a 2x is 1.5in. *This is enough support for a half lap?*


Why would you do that (half lap joint) ... versus just using a simple butt joint ?


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

That was my question. Then I suppose you wouldn't do it for any reason.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

HiReZ said:


> That was my question. Then I suppose you wouldn't do it for any reason.


And here are my questions:

Which way would you half lap it ? (vertically or horizontally)

And what would doing so gain you ?

I don't see it as gaining much ... if anything. It seems to me that it just adds an unnecessary complication.

FWIW, the wood stand for my 55g is a fairly cheap affair, that the owner of the LFS where I purchased my tank produced himself and offered for sale to customers.

It is an "open design" and is not a piece of furniture. It is 30 years old.

It consists of a top and bottom frame and four legs ... and is designed to disassembled if need be for storage/transport. All of it is made from 2 x 4's ... four pieces of 2 x 4 for each frame, and four single 2 x 4's, one for each leg.

Each "leg" has two (upper and lower) 3 1/2" wide slots cut into it 1/2" deep, that the top and bottom frames sit on. The top and bottom frames are secured to the legs by means of 1/4" x 3" bolt. The bolts are *not* in shear ... they carry no weight whatsoever - they only serve to ensure that the frames remain in their respective slots.

My point in sharing all of this is how little is really needed (or how little one can get away with), in terms of a load bearing area on the frames and legs.

Having said that, I don't think I'd want to trip and fall into the tank/stand ... and if I were to build a stand myself, I'd probably use an additional inside 2 x 4 under the top frame on each leg and then skin the whole thing in plywood as a cabinet.

And while I appreciate your artistic sense, in terms of the furniture you seem to prefer, I probably would not build a stand in the way you have it rendered.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

wryan said:


> ... And while I appreciate your artistic sense, in terms of the furniture you seem to prefer, I probably would not build a stand in the way you have it rendered.


Allow me the right to reserve to modify that last comment above, in light of some additional info:

How are you planning to attach the side and rear panels ?

Adding side and rear panels will add considerable rigidity to the frame which help to keep it from racking (twisting) ... depending on how they are attached/secured.


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

So I feel a bit like we are straying into the darkness a bit... so let me just say I appreciate everyone's input. I am here at these forums getting input and advice because I (to be blunt) don't know what I'm doing  having never done this before. and I perhaps started without even knowing the right questions to ask, but knowledge leads to questions leads to understanding :fish: 
that said lets continue with good intentions...



wryan said:


> And while I appreciate your artistic sense, in terms of the furniture you seem to prefer, I probably would not build a stand in the way you have it rendered


And I never intended to; thats why I'm here to get advice. If I was not clear in my first post I am thinking about how to do this and started with a pure concept to get things started fully intending to change it to arrive at something practical. To do that I would like input from someone that knows more what they are doing that me at this point. So I thank you for your effort.



wryan said:


> And here are my questions:


Excuse me but I'm the one here asking question so I claim these as my own now 



wryan said:


> Which way would you half lap it ? (vertically or horizontally)And what would doing so gain you ?


Having never heard the term before today, I honestly don't know, I was hoping you would  I assume this would make a better joint so that the same amount of material is covered from both joining pieces. In this case the frame corner would have the same amount of material resting in the post notch???? But I agree I would not do it unless is became important structurally to do.



wryan said:


> Which way would you half lap it ? (vertically or horizontally)
> [/quote
> Taken as a test question: My guess is vertically in that what I said above would apply. if I define vertical correctly as 6 inches wide and 1.5 in down the length of the long frame piece (front).
> 
> So I am starting to find that I am a terrible funiture designer and my open design is ****. I have found that what I can get is spruse and not pine and the sizes available will put constraints on everything. So I think practically I will change to a center supported design and as such put doors on the front so it does not look odd and then skin the remaining free sides with some nice paneling or ply of some kind.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

HiReZ said:


> So I feel a bit like we are straying into *the darkness* a bit...


Oh no ... not that !!! 

:lol:




HiReZ said:


> so let me just say I appreciate everyone's input. I am here at these forums getting input and advice because I (to be blunt) don't know what I'm doing  having never done this before. and I perhaps started without even knowing the right questions to ask, but knowledge leads to questions leads to understanding :fish:
> that said lets continue with good intentions...


I'm in ... :thumb:



HiReZ said:


> And I never intended to; thats why I'm here to get advice. If I was not clear in my first post I am thinking about how to do this and started with a pure concept to get things started fully intending to change it to arrive at something practical. To do that I would like input from someone that knows more what they are doing that me at this point. So I thank you for your effort.


My pleasure, I only hope it has been of some small use ...



HiReZ said:


> Excuse me but I'm the one here asking question so I claim these as my own now


By all means, please do ...

(In doing so, you will be walking a path I myself have trod before ...  )



HiReZ said:


> Having never heard the term before today, I honestly don't know, I was hoping you would  I assume this would make a better joint so that the same amount of material is covered from both joining pieces. In this case the frame corner would have the same amount of material resting in the post notch???? But I agree I would not do it unless is became important structurally to do.


With the initial rendering you provided I am very concerned about how the top and bottom frames will be secured to legs.

Using the 2 x 2 notch in the inside corner of the legs provides a good amount of bearing area for the load (more would be better of course)... but I don't see how the frames will be secured to legs to make the whole stand rigid.

FWIW, in terms of design, my approach to the problem would be as follows:

First and foremost:

1. Structural integrity

Secondarily:

2. Appearance

IOW, what is essential in terms of structure and construction, to adequately support a tank of 75 gallons so that the structure is rigid, and ensure a load of around 800 lbs three feet (or more) in the air doesn't wind up on the floor ?

And then work backwards from that, in order to get the appearance I want.

The all-important and critical structure can (possibly) be hidden behind a facade to get where you want to go as far as appearance ...

In the image that you provided of the example piece of furniture, the top and bottom frames are different than your rendering ... in that the frames come all the way to the outside of the 4 x 4's ... and are secured by metal corner brackets on the outside (and mebbe on the inside as well)

Is that a design compromise you are willing to make ?

If so, there will be good solutions for securing the frame to the legs (the notching would be done on the outside of the legs, rather than the inside ... and the frames could be screwed to the portion of the 4 x 4 on the inside that was not notched)

BTW - can you fabricate similar brackets as the one in the example picture for the outside ... or have it done by someone else ?

Keep in mind that neither I or most others here know your exact circumstances: I don't know whether you have young toddlers in the house who are rambunctious (my neighbors) ... or an excitable dog who might be prone to jumping up at some interesting-looking fish darting around in a tank (my nephew)

IOW: There is a liability that attaches (even if not from a legal perspective) to any advice that is offered.



HiReZ said:


> Taken as a test question: My guess is vertically in that what I said above would apply. if I define vertical correctly as 6 inches wide and 1.5 in down the length of the long frame piece (front).


That's the way I'd do it ... if I did it ... because notching the 2 x 6's the other way potentially reduces their load bearing strength (depending on the depth of the overlap, and whether any of the 6" dimension actually rests on the legs)



HiReZ said:


> So I am starting to find that I am a terrible funiture designer and my open design is #%$&.


I certain hope that's not what you are finding out ...

I think the better lesson is that there is no free lunch, and that resolving problems is ... _an exercise_ ... one which sometimes has an extended duration, until a workable solution is found ... :wink:



HiReZ said:


> I have found that what I can get is spruse and not pine and the sizes available will put constraints on everything.


I see.



HiReZ said:


> So I think practically I will change to a center supported design and as such put doors on the front so it does not look odd and then skin the remaining free sides with some nice paneling or ply of some kind.


If you go that route, skinning the exterior can provide for some really great structural rigidity.

Keep us posted on what you do.


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

It is also of great concern and consideration how the top frame will be secured to the legs. I have already considered metal bracing brackets on the inside. I am not sure what is available for this purpose but I am not afraid to cut and bent a bit of metal to make my own.

I agree about building for structural integrity first. So I would build it such that the weight of a 75g would be secure at a minimum with the four legs and top and bottom frame then any added bracing and sheathing would further guarantee stability long term.

I believe if i look closely the legs in my example are continuous on the outside. the metal bracing wraps and attaches the frame.

I would consider removing as much of the "inside" of the legs as needed or go with larger legs, just would like to keep the outside complete from floor to tank.
Is that enough to relieve the structural integrity concerns? ....with appropriate design and implementation of course.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

HiReZ said:


> It is also of great concern and consideration how the top frame will be secured to the legs. I have already considered metal bracing brackets on the inside. I am not sure what is available for this purpose but I am not afraid to cut and bent a bit of metal to make my own.


Good deal ... :thumb:

In terms of what is available, head on over to Home Depot or Lowes and scope out their selection of Simpson Strong-Tie hardware ... they should have 2 x 3 or 2 x 4 in a 90 degree angle that can be used as inside braces to tie the members for the top (and bottom) frames together. They're galvanized and not real pretty ... but used on the inside, you won't see them anyways.

As far as fabbing your own, a little bit of 14 - 18 gauge cold (or hot) roll sheet should do the trick. Cut out the pieces (flat), stack them (flat) and then drill them all at once (flat) ... so the holes are consistent across the pieces. Helps if you have a welder (otherwise just clamp them) to keep them aligned ... a couple of tacks on the edges before you stick 'em in the drill press and punch the holes ... then just hit the tacks with an angle grinder and use a cold chisel to pop them apart.

Then bend 'em up.



HiReZ said:


> I agree about building for structural integrity first. So I would build it such that the weight of a 75g would be secure at a minimum with the four legs and top and bottom frame then any added bracing and sheathing would further guarantee stability long term.


Sounds like a plan ... :thumb:



HiReZ said:


> I believe if i look closely the legs in my example *are continuous on the outside*.


Correct ... but that piece of furniture probably in all likelihood wasn't designed to take an 800 lb load.



HiReZ said:


> the metal bracing wraps and attaches the frame.


That's what I was trying to point out in my previous post ... the hardware (screws) with which the braces are attached are in *shear* ... which isn't good.



HiReZ said:


> I would consider removing as much of the "inside" of the legs as needed or go with larger legs, *just would like to keep the outside complete from floor to tank.*
> Is that enough to relieve the structural integrity concerns?


For me ?

Personally, I don't see how you would (or more accurately how *I* would) do it (on the inside) and I would be comfortable ...

Build it 3D and provide a rendering ... show me what you intend to do.

If the brackets (on the outside) covered the point where the frames and legs came together, what real difference would it make from an appearance standpoint ?

You'd never be able to see it ... :wink:



HiReZ said:


> ....with appropriate design and implementation of course.


Well that's the real trick isn't it ?


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## Pdxmonkeyboy (Oct 17, 2016)

sorry. I mentioned the half lap joint as a way to construct it without the 4x4 posts.

there are a number of different ways to go about attaching the corner posts to the rails. (the rails are the horizontal pieces).

you could miter a 45 on the rails and then joint them together and attach them to a mortise or notch that you cut-out of the 4x4.

you could also do a traditional mortise and tennon joint. you would cut the tennons on the end of the rails using your table saw. the mortises..."slots" are made with a drill followed by a chisel.

either way, the rails need to join to the 4x4 in the approximate center of the 4x4. this is because.. as you previously pointed out, if you put both stiles on the very inside corner of the 4x4 then you don't have any room.

if you google table leg mortise and tennon you will find everything you need to know and even videos to show you exactly how to do it.

take your time and be patient. woodworking is challenging and rewarding but you have to remember that it is a "subtractive art". All you ever do is take away material for things to fit.. you can never add more wood.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> ... take your time and be patient. woodworking is challenging and rewarding but you have to remember that it is a "subtractive art". All you ever do is take away material for things to fit.. *you can never add more wood*.


That's one of the downsides of working with wood as opposed to steel and other metals ... where adding more isn't usually a problem ... just melt it together ... 

Sure hard to beat wood for it's warmth and inherent beauty tho' ... :thumb:


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## Pdxmonkeyboy (Oct 17, 2016)

sorry. I mentioned the half lap joint as a way to construct it without the 4x4 posts.

there are a number of different ways to go about attaching the corner posts to the rails. (the rails are the horizontal pieces).

you could miter a 45 on the rails and then joint them together and attach them to a mortise or notch that you cut-out of the 4x4.

you could also do a traditional mortise and tennon joint. you would cut the tennons on the end of the rails using your table saw. the mortises..."slots" are made with a drill followed by a chisel.

either way, the rails need to join to the 4x4 in the approximate center of the 4x4. this is because.. as you previously pointed out, if you put both stiles on the very inside corner of the 4x4 then you don't have any room.

if you google table leg mortise and tennon you will find everything you need to know and even videos to show you exactly how to do it.

take your time and be patient. woodworking is challenging and rewarding but you have to remember that it is a "subtractive art". All you ever do is take away material for things to fit.. you can never add more wood.


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

So I have made a (slightly) new concept. Thicker legs, sacrificing more on the inside of the legs for more frame support, and metal bracing. the upper frame is 1.5x7.5 (2x8) inch. I am also thinking of including a 2x4 center support in the back.
any improvement???
other suggestions???
Is this doable, practical???


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

HiReZ said:


> So I have made a (slightly) new concept.


Nice looking images :thumb: ... what software are you building and rendering it in ?



HiReZ said:


> *Thicker legs*, sacrificing more on the inside of the legs for more frame support,


Size of the legs ?



HiReZ said:


> and metal bracing.


The bracing shown is a good start ... but I'm still not seeing anything in the way of metal bracing that ties the top frame to the legs.

Nor do I see how the top frame is secured to the legs.

Or how the bottom frame is secured to the legs.



HiReZ said:


> the upper frame is 1.5x7.5 (2x8) inch.


Are the ends of the frame where it sits on the legs notched ?

Or are the legs notched ?

Or am I having an optical illusion ?



HiReZ said:


> I am also thinking of including a 2x4 center support in the back.


Couldn't hurt ... but probably isn't critical



HiReZ said:


> any improvement???


Much improved (IMO) ... in that the bearing area of the top frame on the legs is increased.

How that frame will be secured to the legs appears to still be unresolved however.



HiReZ said:


> other suggestions???


The portion of the legs that is left on the outside (that I assume the top frame will be secured to) looks a little thin ...

Metal bracing bracing that actually ties the frame to the legs.

Will it be skinned ... or will it be open ?



HiReZ said:


> Is this doable, practical???


Appears to be doable ... still has some undefined aspects that need to be resolved.


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## Pdxmonkeyboy (Oct 17, 2016)

Simpson plates are surely strong enough, but getting them tight enough so the joints don't show gaps is going to be a challange. As mentioned above, you need a good solid connection between the legs and frame. if not, the stand will be wobbly.

honestly though, why not just buy a 4 foot table from iKea and be done with it...

Not trying to be discouraging but it seems as though you may not have the skill required to pull this off and have it look good. hardwood is EXPENSIVE as well.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Another issue I see (depicted in your last renderings) relates to the legs in terms of what they are supporting.

The "table top" appears to be the exact same footprint as the tank, and the legs are inset from the edges ... in practical terms, that is a bad design - it is inherently less stable than if the legs were at (or actually beyond) the edges of the tank.

Footprint (of the legs) longer/wider than the load it's supporting, potentially = more stable

Footprint (of the legs) shorter/narrower than the load it's supporting, potentially = less stable

In practical terms, the real problem isn't with the long dimension - it's unlikely that it would ever tip over in that direction.

The short dimension (width, front to back) is another matter entirely.


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

wryan said:


> Nice looking images :thumb: ... what software are you building and rendering it in ?


Sketchup



wryan said:


> Size of the legs


5x5



wryan said:


> The bracing shown is a good start ... but I'm still not seeing anything in the way of metal bracing that ties the top frame to the legs.
> Nor do I see how the top frame is secured to the legs.
> Or how the bottom frame is secured to the legs.


The legs are notched 2.5in leaving about an inch of leg inside and out. The frame can screw to frame without metal bracing. Metal bracing can bolt into the leg at a downward angle or use a further notch just below the frame with 45 degree flat for screws into the leg and screws on the bracket bent around the inside of frame.



wryan said:


> Are the ends of the frame where it sits on the legs notched ?


No


wryan said:


> Or are the legs notched ?


Yes


wryan said:


> Or am I having an optical illusion ?


My concept is not precisely reflecting reality. I with make it more detailed


wryan said:


> How that frame will be secured to the legs appears to still be unresolved however.
> 
> 
> wryan said:
> ...


I would
D like the option of open, but practically will skin the back at least to hide eq. Behind.


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

wryan said:


> Another issue I see (depicted in your last renderings) relates to the legs in terms of what they are supporting.
> 
> The "table top" appears to be the exact same footprint as the tank, and the legs are inset from the edges ... in practical terms, that is a bad design - it is inherently less stable than if the legs were at (or actually beyond) the edges of the tank.
> 
> ...


My mistake.
I scaled the legs wrong and didn't catch it until already posted. My intention is to have the legs extendeded from the tank precisely for the stability. And the tank rest over the frame, but in between is a top plank of around an inch thick again extending over the legs by an inch for aesthetics.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

No sense in mitering the 2 by 6's when you are covering them with one inch stock. No sense in cutting off the leg inside the 2 by 6's. Let it go up almost flush to the top of the rails, and then biscuit or screw and glue it together. Metal brackets are great in many applications but around moisture they can corrode.

Ikea is an option but much of what I see there is not designed for holding fish tanks. South of me there is a large Amish community and they can build great furniture.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Mcdaphnia said:


> No sense in mitering the 2 by 6's when you are covering them with one inch stock. No sense in cutting off the leg inside the 2 by 6's. Let it go up almost flush to the top of the rails, and then biscuit or screw and glue it together.


Bingo on all counts !



Mcdaphnia said:


> Metal brackets are great in many applications but around moisture they can corrode.


Use stainless ... 

Could use regular steel as well ... if epoxy paint is used as the coating.



Mcdaphnia said:


> Ikea is an option but much of what I see there is not designed for holding fish tanks.


Yeah ... count me out as far as using anything that Ikea offers as a stand for a tank that large ...



Mcdaphnia said:


> South of me there is a large Amish community and they can build great furniture.


Kidron is about 30 minutes away ... nephew had a dining room table done by a local cabinetmaker there ... :thumb:


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

HiReZ said:


> Sketchup


Ahhh ... I keep telling myself one of these days I'm going to learn it ... :wink:

Will probably never happen ... :lol:



HiReZ said:


> 5x5


Got it.



HiReZ said:


> The legs are notched 2.5in leaving about an inch of leg inside and out.


Ahhh ... I see now.



HiReZ said:



> The frame can screw to frame without metal bracing.


Ok ... based on your intended method I can see that ... assuming you actually meant "frame to frame" above and not "frame to leg" ...



HiReZ said:


> Metal bracing can bolt into the leg at a downward angle or use a further notch just below the frame with 45 degree flat for screws into the leg and screws on the bracket bent around the inside of frame.


Ya lost me here ...



HiReZ said:


> No


Good.



HiReZ said:


> Yes


Good.



HiReZ said:


> My concept is not precisely reflecting reality. I with make it more detailed


Probably a good idea ... if you want feedback on what you actually intend to do ... :wink:



HiReZ said:


> That's because it is. its still 4x4 in the design which told me to add 1x1 and get 5x5 legs. With 4x4 notch in the middle I'm left with 1inch frame to outside and 1inch frame to inside. So now it should be 1.5inch both ways.


IC.

I'd still use some metal brackets wherever I could to tie the legs to the frame the tank sets on.



HiReZ said:


> I would like the option of open, but practically will skin the back at least to hide eq. Behind.


Got it ... that will add some rigidity (... along the length on one side anyways)


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

corrections and progress...

































The last pic is another consideration for bracing. the metal would have two 45 bends leaving a 45 in the center that can extend below the frame and with a flush cut in the leg it will fix the frame/brace to the leg.


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

I'm realize now I have been confused on terms perhaps. Everyone suggestions of notching is what I consider a slot in the leg for the frame to sit in. If this is indeed the case and the "proper" way, would I make a slot on each side that's meets in the middle; so a right angle continuous slot in the center of the leg. Then the complete frame sets in. Or make separate slots and assemble the framen and leg as one?


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

HiReZ said:


> corrections and progress...


Looking much better, in terms of the location of the legs vis-a-vis the footprint of the tank.

What is the planned height of the top of the stand ?



HiReZ said:


> HiReZ said:
> 
> 
> > The last pic is another consideration for bracing. the metal would have two 45 bends leaving a 45 in the center that can extend below the frame and with a flush cut in the leg it will fix the frame/brace to the leg.


Yeah ... you pretty much lost me there, between the picture and your description of it.

Here's what I see in that picture ... and maybe with just a little more conversation we can get on the same page as far as the terminology we're using:

I see a 90 degree angle bracket ... which from all appearances is intended to go inside the notch or cutout in the top of the leg ... and on the the outside of the top frame ... ?

Beyond that, I also see a triangular piece of metal which fits into the inside corner of the 90 degree angle bracket mentioned above. It appears to have holes ... perhaps so it can be screwed through both brackets, the top frame and into the leg ?

Not sure whether that 90 degree angle bracket (in the last picture) is the same as the other ones in previous pictures ... which are shown on the inside corners of the top frame. I'm guessing mebbe not ... because the next to the last picture also shows the four 90 degree angle brackets which appear to be intended to go inside the top frame ... in addition to the brace depicted in the last rendering.

I'm guess that you designed it in this way because you don't want any of the metal bracing visible.

Is that the case ?


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

HiReZ said:


> I'm realize now I have been confused on terms perhaps. Everyone suggestions of notching is what I consider a slot in the leg for the frame to sit in.


Fair enough ... slot, notch, or as Pdxmonkeyboy rightly notes ... _a mortise_...



HiReZ said:


> If this is indeed the case and the "proper" way, ...


There are often many "proper" ways things can be done ... to achieve the same appearance ...

What you need to be concerned with is: _Which one provides the necessary structural integrity with the least amount complexity (which equates to time, effort, and skill) to execute ?_



HiReZ said:


> would I make a slot on each side that's meets in the middle; so a right angle continuous slot in the center of the leg. Then the complete frame sets in.


Makes sense to me ...

And that's fine as far as it goes ... but without suitable metal bracing I wouldn't trust it for the intended use.



HiReZ said:


> Or make separate slots and assemble the framen and leg as one?


Huh ?


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## Steve C (Oct 9, 2011)

Been following this thread, two things man.

#1. looks like a good build for a sturdy stand, kudos for sure.

#2. IS that Stan Lee?? LOL


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

I prefer the stretchers (yellow) at the bottom of your earlier stand to the latest version. For both strength and appearance putting the stretchers centered and preferably taller would be a plus. Let's say they are 2 by 4's or 2 by 6's. Drill 1 1/2" holes to square out with a chisel. Insert the full stretchers (no tenons) deep into the legs or even all the way through. Level and glue them into the holes, AKA mortices. Drill two centered 1" holes above each other, going all the way from front leg to back leg, and insert 1" hardwood dowels or (square) 1 by 1's which will double as front to back stretchers. Stretchers are not at the same level front to back as the left to right ones so that the leg is stronger.


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

wryan said:


> Yeah ... you pretty much lost me there, between the picture and your description of it.
> 
> Here's what I see in that picture ... and maybe with just a little more conversation we can get on the same page as far as the terminology we're using:
> 
> ...


"The last pic is another consideration for bracing"
Its difficult to describe and picture are worth 1000 words.
Dont blame me for sketchup's failure to render my thoughts 
the brackets are one piece of metal. It is true that I prefer the metal not to be visible, but the design comes from how I have seen every table with legs and "mortise". I added the vertical drop based on concerns brought here of security.
The bracket I tried to render last is one piece of metal with three sections. imaging bending one piece of metal at two places at 45degrees. the middle is srewed/bolted at 45* into the leg.


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

Steve C said:


> Been following this thread, two things man.
> 
> #1. looks like a good build for a sturdy stand, kudos for sure.
> 
> #2. IS that Stan Lee?? LOL


Thanks!
Thats the encouragement I needed to start building and learn more along the way  
... there is nothing like real world experience.
P.S. why that's me of course! :lol:


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

btw, one little detail question:
to make the slot in the leg or Mortise for the full 2xX. I just use the saw, then chisel out the rest into the leg? any trick to getting it flat other than effort and patience? and for the bottom slot away from the edge; just drill and chisel?


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

HiReZ said:


> "The last pic is another consideration for bracing"
> Its difficult to describe and picture are worth 1000 words.
> Dont blame me for sketchup's failure to render my thoughts


LOL ... :thumb:

(I have that very same problem with form-Z at times  )



HiReZ said:


> the brackets are one piece of metal. It is true that I prefer the metal not to be visible, but the design comes from how I have seen every table with legs and "mortise". I added the vertical drop based on concerns brought here of security.


I understand.



HiReZ said:


> The bracket I tried to render last is one piece of metal with three sections. imaging bending one piece of metal at two places at 45degrees.


Yup ... got it now ... in the rendering it appears to be a solid.

Technically speaking however, the bends are actually 135 degrees ... assuming you are starting out with a flat sheet ... :wink:

Otherwise the resultant piece (with 45 degree bends) would look like kinda like this: \__/ ... rather than like this: /__\



HiReZ said:


> the middle is srewed/bolted at 45* into the leg.


Makes sense.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Mcdaphnia said:


> I prefer the stretchers (yellow) at the bottom of your earlier stand to the latest version. For both strength and appearance putting the stretchers centered and preferably taller would be a plus. Let's say they are 2 by 4's or 2 by 6's. Drill 1 1/2" holes to square out with a chisel. Insert the full stretchers (no tenons) deep into the legs or even all the way through. Level and glue them into the holes, AKA mortices. Drill two centered 1" holes above each other, going all the way from front leg to back leg, and insert 1" hardwood dowels or (square) 1 by 1's which will double as front to back stretchers. Stretchers are not at the same level front to back as the left to right ones so that the leg is stronger.


I like the thinking on this ... pinning the stretchers (lowering framing) with dowels.

Same technique could conceivably be carried out with the top frame as well ... using at least two dowels on the ends of each piece of the top frame to tie both ends of each piece into the legs.


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

wryan said:


> Otherwise the resultant piece (with 45 degree bends) would look like kinda like this: \__/ ... rather than like this: /__\


but case one is correct, assuming your figure illustrative only.... if I am using the bracket on the frame corner its 90 degrees (hopefully). I can bend a bracket one in the middle or two 45s spaced appart with a bridge in the middle which becomes the platform for mounting to the leg...


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

Mcdaphnia said:


> Stretchers are not at the same level front to back as the left to right ones so that the leg is stronger..


I never conceived of such a strange consequence!
Only trouble is I may want to use the bottom "stretchers" to support a board as a shelf.
I had already considered drilling holes in the lower leg for the lower frame, "stretchers" but was going to hold off until I got into it because I am afraid of compromising the strength of the legs. Since they don't need to bear any weight I thought making mortise would be overkill and some pocket screws ( in sheer) would not pose a problem. maybe a peg or two drilled into the leg and frame ends???


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

HiReZ said:


> but case one is correct, assuming your figure illustrative only.... if I am using the bracket on the frame corner its 90 degrees (hopefully). I can bend a bracket one in the middle or two 45s spaced appart with a bridge in the middle which becomes the platform for mounting to the leg...


Got it ... I think ...


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

HiReZ said:


> Mcdaphnia said:
> 
> 
> > Stretchers are not at the same level front to back as the left to right ones so that the leg is stronger..
> ...


Instead of stretchers, you can use a base. A 2 by 6 flat on the floor to create a rectangle for example with some decorative trim added, or use a router to make a creative edge. Make a shallow cut to accept the leg bottoms and use screws from the bottom up into the legs. Then your someday shelf can rest directly on the base. The mortised 2 by 6's would easily hold a shelf, even if it had a large sump on it.


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

here is detail how to join legs to frame:
the back i have exaggerated to reveal more. obviously the notch would be flush as depicted in the near. In the near copy I added two triangle wood pieces to get a flat. the gray tubes represent screw placement. this could be improved with the metal brackets mentioned following the corner contour.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

HiReZ said:


> here is detail how to join legs to frame:
> the back i have exaggerated to reveal more. obviously the notch would be flush as depicted in the near. In the near copy I added two triangle wood pieces to get a flat. the gray tubes represent screw placement. this could be improved with the metal brackets mentioned following the corner contour.


Looking very good ! :thumb:


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Just a FYI, you don't need to use 4x4s or even 2x4s for a stand, it's massive overkill.
You can use 1x4 pine and get all the strength you need. I built a stand back in 2009 and it's in a thread on this forum under snorkel2.

The advantage to using the select 1x4 pine is it's easier to get a really flat and square stand because the wood is much straighter and true. Now you do need to use the quality or select grades and 
you can build the entire thing from it including the side panels.

Remember most of the weight is transferred to the corners and outside edges. 









https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=bjFkWDhOTXhUWWdrVHRGQmF3eXpXNmJ3dlRIYXRn


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

snorkel3 said:


> Just a FYI, you don't need to use 4x4s or even 2x4s for a stand, it's massive overkill.
> You can use 1x4 pine and get all the strength you need. I built a stand back in 2009 and it's in a thread on this forum under snorkel2.
> 
> The advantage to using the select 1x4 pine is it's easier to get a really flat and square stand because the wood is much straighter and true. Now you do need to use the quality or select grades and
> ...


Some good points here. Unless you are building double or triple tank levels, structural pad is overkill. However it may be cheaper by board foot.


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

Time for an update. The first stage of construction is complete. The leg slots (mortise) were much more a pain to do than expected  also the legs are stable but tend NOT to stay as straight as I would have though, so good thing for the bottom frame to be included.



























In all it fits what I wanted. I have to figure out what best to do about the top. I had thought of a counter top cut to fit, but what I am finding is not to my liking, so I am wondering/considering making a top of the same material already used. for example gluing a few board of 2x8 in rows and planing the top. I have doubt though that I could get a good plane with my skill and available tools


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Flush set a 3/4 inch plywood sheet that creates a flat shelf, but you don't see the plywood edges. Attach pieces of wood, scraps can be used, to hold the plywood in place and support it.


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

I don't want it flush. I want a table top that extends past the legs say 2 inch.


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

Also I would like suggestion on finishing the wood. I want to protect it from water stain of course, but want as much of an unfinished look as possible (like the rest of my funiture). I was thinking maybe a thin lacquer seal?


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

HiReZ said:


> Also I would like suggestion on finishing the wood. I want to protect it from water stain of course, but want as much of an unfinished look as possible (like the rest of my funiture). I was thinking maybe a thin lacquer seal?


 Clear Varathane or polyurethane is considered one of the best finishes to protect wood from water. It comes in flat or matte, non shiny finishes that are similar to raw wood. Minwax makes a rub on version.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

HiRez,

Looks like excellent work on the execution of it !

:thumb:


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

thanks! 
still needs a few finishing touches though. For example the frame and leg top I didn't get to come out flush. Will have to do some more chiseling or I also thought about putting some cork around the corners, that could also keep it from squeeking.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Looks good, how heavy is it with the 4x4s?


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

at the moment it weighs 50 lb.


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

The workmanship looks awesome. However how will the top resist torquing if you don't sheath it. There is no crossbracing


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

Just read your last post. Why is it squeaking? Not trying to be an a.. But I can tell you from experience. A tank on the floor no matter what size is Not Good.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Cyphound said:


> Just read your last post. Why is it squeaking? Not trying to be an a.. But I can tell you from experience. A tank on the floor no matter what size is Not Good.


Dock adhesive in all the joints during assembly and clamped 24+ hours should have prevented squeaks.


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

actually I have no squeaks. it is very sturdy already, and I have not finished putting all the bracing and fastening I planned. I was considering leaving out the glue to have the possibility to disassemble and move this thing in the future. I said to prevent squeaking because all my furniture that has large surfaces together squeak. I also thought that cork for example between the top plank and the bottom assemble would compensate for inconsistency and settling as well as provide a buffer for sound, vibration, etc to and from the tank.


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

Project has been on hold due to injury. With one arm tied up its hard to get anything done. 
Feeling good enough to work on this a little today I have assembled the one inch thick table top.

However after time off I am revisiting and reconsidering the best option to fasten all this together. Has anyone a suggestion how to put the legs and frame together simple and effective?? I was wanting to avoid screws on the outer faces, but now feel this is in reality no concern now. I have all but concluded that A few screws on each side on the outside and a few on the inside and simple call it done. Any better ideas?
a pic of legs and frame looking inside out...









I have also picked out my tank, and have plans for led lighting


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

today the top and bottom stretchers fabbed and fastened to the legs. I ended up putting screws on eight sides around the outside. I decided my original plan was just compromising simplicity and integrity so opted for big screws all around. I will cover the holes with decorative pieces.
Last pic of a nice rock I have found with fossils. I am wondering how I could integrate this beauty into aquascape somehow; suggestion? The others are from a rock picking trip for the setup. They are most granite(like) and stack well. They blend in with by planned substrate.


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## Steve C (Oct 9, 2011)

Lookin' good.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

HiRez,

Great execution on the build ... looks solid ... :thumb:

(and nice rocks ...  )


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## Pdxmonkeyboy (Oct 17, 2016)

looks really great. The different wood proportions really make it look nice as opposed to a ton of 2x4. Nice work.


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## HiReZ (Jul 19, 2011)

Thanks for the compliments.

breaking new ground; I was not sure how it would turn out in the end. I am happy with the results. Just got to get varnish on it and a tank on top!


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