# Cycling 2 tanks and have a question.



## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

20 Gallon:

- Started doing a fishless cycle with Amm on Jan 11. By Jan 17. I had zero Amm.
- Started testing for Nitrites on Jan 17, Nitrites were 2-3ppm. Did water change of 30% and added Amm. Have done water changes every day and added Amm every second day and I am on Day 7 now and still have 2ppm Nitrites.

Question: I have added prime with every water change and thought today that if I am adding Amm and then adding Prime, doesnt that defeat the purpose....should I not be dosing with Prime during water changes?

75 Gallon:

- Started doing fishless cycle with Amm on Jan 14. Reading is 2-3ppm.
- On the 6th day, it dropped to 1ppm. Now I am on the 10th day and it is still at 1ppm.
- No water changes during this time.

Question: Shouldn't the Amm cycle be done by now? It's been 10 days.

Thanks!


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

I would recommend you read this article on fishless cyling. It has lots of useful info about how to do it right.

I wouldn't do daily water changes on the 20G. There's no need for it (unless you had fish in the tank). You're fine using Prime to dechlorinate. It temporarily detoxifies the ammonia for fish. Ammonia is still available for the beneficial bacteria.

With your 75G, it is slightly unusual that ammonia hasn't hit 0 after 10 days but I would be patient a bit longer.


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## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Zimmy....I am following the article to the letter.... it says to do daily water changes once the Ammonia reaches zero in order to try and keep the Nitrites down....

I am just concerned the 75 is taking longer than usual....I will wait a couple more days.


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

the usual is 4 weeks... unless you add media or materials from an established tank. The first stage waiting for ammonia to dissappear is actually the shortest stage, waiting for nitrites to drop is slower and seems to take forever!


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

thebigman65 said:


> Thanks Zimmy....I am following the article to the letter.... it says to do daily water changes once the Ammonia reaches zero in order to try and keep the Nitrites down....


The article says:



> Add ammonia every other day while testing for nitrite. Do small partial water changes.


It's not precise about the frequency but to me it should be dictated by your nitrite reading. If you get nitrites over 4 ppm, I would do small (20-25%) water changes to bring them down, otherwise it's better to keep things stable.


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## Fishy_Cichlid (Aug 4, 2011)

1. Maintain your temperature at around 31-32 deg C and wait. The fall in Nitrite will happen suddenly, there is no gradual decrease. The bacteria which convert Nitrites into Nitrates take a longer time to form than the Ammonia to Nitrite bacterias.
2. Do not do too large water changes, 10% every 2-3 days should be sufficient.
3. You add Prime to remove the Chlorine+Chloramine in the water you added. You need to add it every time you change water.
4. Keep testing your Ph, if it has dropped or has a tendency of dropping, add buffers.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I am just concerned the 75 is taking longer than usual....I will wait a couple more days.


Hanging at 1ppm isn't typical. I'd also suggest checking pH. Don't add more ammonia, see if it goes to 0 after a few days. Also test some water with a known 0 ammonia level like bottled water to check your test kit/strips. What are you using to test?

I prefer a simple dechlor for cycling. Prime shouldn't disrupt things, but I've not done enough testing with it to say for sure regardless of what the manufacturer might say. It'd be worth investing in some of the cheap dechlor and double dose. It'll deal with the chloramine without messing with the ammonia. But, again, I'm not saying Prime is a problem. I just don't care for Prime or similar 'slime coat' products for a lot of reasons.


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## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

prov356 said:


> > I am just concerned the 75 is taking longer than usual....I will wait a couple more days.
> 
> 
> Hanging at 1ppm isn't typical. I'd also suggest checking pH. Don't add more ammonia, see if it goes to 0 after a few days. Also test some water with a known 0 ammonia level like bottled water to check your test kit/strips. What are you using to test?
> ...


I have not added any Ammonia since the initial dose....My 20 gallon went to Zero Amm in 7 days....the 75 has been sitting at 1ppm for about 5 days and I seeded the filter from my existing tank.

As for the 20 gallon, I am doing 30% water changes everyday and adding ammonia every 2nd days as instructed....should water changes be smaller or less frequent?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

What you're doing is fine with the 20. It may take 2-3 weeks for nitrite to drop if you didn't seed the tank with bacteria from some other source.

Check the pH on the 75. May be fine, but it's the first thing to check.


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## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

Will do....thanks Tim.....


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## Mike_G (Nov 8, 2011)

prov356 said:


> I just don't care for Prime or similar 'slime coat' products for a lot of reasons.


I'm with you on that. I've actually been considering making my own dechlorinator solution using only sodium thiosulfate. I found this calculator online: http://www.cnykoi.com/calculators/calcstdose.asp


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Mike_G said:


> prov356 said:
> 
> 
> > I just don't care for Prime or similar 'slime coat' products for a lot of reasons.
> ...


That's what I do.


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## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

prov356 said:


> What you're doing is fine with the 20. It may take 2-3 weeks for nitrite to drop if you didn't seed the tank with bacteria from some other source.
> 
> Check the pH on the 75. May be fine, but it's the first thing to check.


Amm is 1PPM still. PH is 8.0 to 8.2

BTW...I use API master test kit.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Amm is 1PPM still. PH is 8.0 to 8.2
> 
> BTW...I use API master test kit.


Just give it more time then, and don't change anything with the filters. etc. It has to drop soon. Leave the tank lights off.

Curious what a nitrite test will read at this point.


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## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

Ok....so I think the 20 gallon is on track....it took 7 days for Amm to drop to zero and now I am on the 8th day with Nitrite sitting at 2ppm.

As for the 75 Gallon.....it is on the 12th day and still has .5ppm Amm but the nitrites test at zero....this can't be right...an I seeded the filter with material from my established tank....Seems the Amm part of the cycle is taking way too long.....


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## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

opcorn:


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Give it more time. Variances to the norm happen.


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## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

Okey Dokey.....


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## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

ok, so I am on Day 15.....0.5 Amm and 0 Nitrites......any suggestions on how I can get nitrites to start.....Maybe the Filter (2075 on a 75 Gal) is too efficient right now so no bacteria is building up?


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

thebigman65 said:


> ok, so I am on Day 15.....0.5 Amm and 0 Nitrites......any suggestions on how I can get nitrites to start.....Maybe the Filter (2075 on a 75 Gal) is too efficient right now so no bacteria is building up?


Your filter being "too efficient" should not impact on cycling.

I'm wondering if your nitrites already spiked and have dropped to zero. You mentioned in an earlier post in this thread that you seeded the tank. This is a shot in the dark but I wonder if the media you used to seed had more denitrifying than nitrifying bacteria.

If your ammonia is dropping you have to have nitrites. Nitrites are the waste produced by the bacteria that consume the ammonia just as nitrates are the waste produced by the bacteria that consume nitrites.

Do you have a nitrate reading?

I'm assuming there's nothing wrong with your test kit since you got nitrite readings on your 20G?

Have you redosed with ammonia since starting?

Any water changes?


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## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

OK....so here is the cycle from the beginning:

- 75 Gal Tank, with ehiem 2075 (seeded with some Biostars and Eheim Substrate from my established 120), set to 84 Degrees F, Koralia running, PH at 8 to 8.2

- Started cycle Jan 14 by Adding 1.5 Tsp, Amm, tested after 20 Min. .50 Amm. Added another 1.5 Tsp tested after 20 Min. .50 Amm. Added Another 1.5 Tsp tested after 20 Min. 2-3 PPM.
- Jan 15 3 PPM
- Jan 16 2-3 PPM
- Jan 17 2-3PPM
- Jan 18 2-3PPM
- Jan 19 1PPM
- Jan 20 to 24 1PPM
- Jan 24 25% Water Change
- Jan 25 to 27, .5 PPM
- Jan 25 & Jan 27 tested for Nitrite They are Zero.
- Jan 27, tested for Nitrates, they are Zero.


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## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

And no, have never re-dosed with Amm.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

Assuming your tank is not heavily planted, I'm kind of stumped as to why you're getting these results.

I'm curious to see what Prov356 will say.


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## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

No Natural Plants....it's a breeding tank....just one fake plant.....Thanks Zimmy.....


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

First off, don't do any more water changes at this point.

What's in the tank, if anything, in the way of decor besides the one fake plant?

What else is in the filter besides the filter media that you seeded with?


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## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

I know I shouldn't have done a water change but I was thinking along the lines of zimmy like maybe it was cycled due to the seeding. Because I got a zero nitrite reading. Anyway I have some cichlids stones and some river rock. Substrate is fine white gravel. Filter is from bottom. Ehiem mech in 2baskets. Eheim substrat in 1 and 1/2 baskets. 1/2 basket of filter floss. Then the blue sponge. Along with some intermixed biostars.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Ok, I see nothing in what you've done to seriously inhibit cycling. But, either your readings are off or there's some other unknown element. Ammonia can't drop without either being gassed off (it is a gas) or being converted to nitrite. Do you have any aeration of the water going on? Anything unusual in the way of cloudiness, etc? Are you positive of your test kits? Seems you could be becuase you used them for the other tank. Have there been any changes to the system that you haven't mentioned?


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## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

I have a korelia. Water is gin clear. Test kits are brand new. Cant think of anything unusual except the water change.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

The water change diluted some of the ammonia, yes, but doesn't explain the other drop on Jan 19th. That's the mystery. If the kits are good, then it had to gas off. No other explanation. It had to go somewhere. The thing is, this isn't a fishless cycle problem. If ammonia from a bottle isn't converted, ammonia from a fish won't be either. I saw this happen with another tank that had fish. Turned out to be a suspect piece of store bought decor that was inhibiting things. I was able to get in front of the tank since it was local and saw cloudy, foamy water. Just giving this as an example. Keep monitoring, and if it doesn't drop soon, then we have to start looking more closely for what might be inhbiting the bacteria. Keep the tank lights off, and make sure tank temp is in a good range. Maybe boost it up into the 80's, about 85.


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## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

It's been at 84 from the beginning....lights are kept off.....I transfered a couple of smaller laval rock from my establish tank to the new 75....maybe that will kick start some bacteria.....As I said the water is gin clear so no issue there.....maybe I just didn't seed the filter enough....on my 20, all i did was put a small lava rock from my established tank....I guess there is nothing else to do but keep trying to get it to form.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

You don't need to seed at all to cycle tank. Some bacteria will be there to get things going without our help. I would see how things go over the next few days.


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## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

Tim, do you know of any type of stone, that may inhibit Bacteria Growth? I have a few piece of stone in the tank that may be limestone.....


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Limestone's fine. Tell me about what was done during prep and setup of the tank and system.


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## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

I brought home the tank, cleaned it out.....painted the background.....added the substrate (Gravel), Rocks (cichlid stones, large river rock, what I think is some pieces of limestone) and the fake plant.

Set up the heater, Korelia, and filter....I took some biomaterial from my existing establish filter and put it in the new fixture. Filled it with water, Raised the temp to 84-85 Degrees, ran is for a couple days and then started the Amm cycle. All the specifics are in my other previous post on this thread.

The only thing I can think of is that you are right the Amm is off gassing and that is why it's going down slowly....but the lack of presence of Nitrites after 15 days is a complete mystery.......


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Was it a new tank? What did you clean it out with?


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## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

Brand new....a little vinager and water and rinsed it and dried it and let it sit for 24 hours.....


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I'm running out of ideas, but 15 days, although untypical, isn't unheard of. I'd try adding a bit more ammonia to bring it up to 2ppm or so. Let's see if there's movement again.


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## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

K. Thanks Tim....I will try that.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Any updates?


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## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

I dosed in Sunday with Amm....and brought it back up to 2 PPM Tested yesterday and it was still 2PPM....Should I test to see if I have any Nitrites yet or too soon?

The 20 Gal is coming along fine, I am about 2 weeks into the nitrite cycle and I am still at 2ppm Hopefully it will drop soon....


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

thebigman65 said:


> I dosed in Sunday with Amm....and brought it back up to 2 PPM Tested yesterday and it was still 2PPM....Should I test to see if I have any Nitrites yet or too soon?
> 
> The 20 Gal is coming along fine, I am about 2 weeks into the nitrite cycle and I am still at 2ppm Hopefully it will drop soon....


Go ahead and test nitrites. If this continues, I'd be tempted to tear down, rinse everything and start from scratch. You're still at step 1 anyway. Let's see what the next few days bring.


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## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

The 75 is down to 1ppm Ammonia today and I think there is .25 Nitrites,,,,but it is slight if any....I will see tomorrow.

Good news is my 20 Gallons has cycled....I have 0 Nitrites, 0 Ammonia and 5ppm of Nitrates....

Question, I have a fish I would like to segregate....would it be ok to put him in there?....also, that tank is a bit warmer, by about 3 to 4 Degrees....I have turned it down but if I transfer him, will that be a big deal?


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

thebigman65 said:


> The 75 is down to 1ppm Ammonia today and I think there is .25 Nitrites,,,,but it is slight if any....I will see tomorrow.
> 
> Good news is my 20 Gallons has cycled....I have 0 Nitrites, 0 Ammonia and 5ppm of Nitrates....
> 
> Question, I have a fish I would like to segregate....would it be ok to put him in there?....also, that tank is a bit warmer, by about 3 to 4 Degrees....I have turned it down but if I transfer him, will that be a big deal?


Do you have a large enough plastic bag to float him in the new tank until the temps match?

Or since it's only a 20G tanks, throw some ice cubes in it.


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## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

Ice cubes are a good idea...i will do that...thanks!


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Question, I have a fish I would like to segregate....would it be ok to put him in there?....also, that tank is a bit warmer, by about 3 to 4 Degrees....I have turned it down but if I transfer him, will that be a big deal?


I've never had a fish react to differences in temp like that. You're talking about putting him into the 20 right?

Great that there's finally some movement on the 75. :thumb: Happy day, huh?


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## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah....the 20....He is a bit agressive and I have some issues in my 125....I want to rule out agression before I treat them for disease....a couple of them aren't eating, etc. Anyway I put him in the 20, he seems fine.

The Nitrites in the 75 seems almost undetectable, but it is a different colour than it was the last few times, so I think there is movement....hopefully tomorrow will be better.....


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## thebigman65 (Jan 3, 2008)

Hey Tim,

Just thought you should know....Ammonia cycle is done and I am on to the nitrite Cycle....its about 4-5ppm right now prior to water change.

Thanks again for all your help with this. Looks like it will be cycled in a couple weeks....then its on to stocking! :thumb:


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Good deal! :thumb:


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