# Sick Adult Female Severum...



## Ape-Fish (Jul 1, 2006)

Hi guys.
I have three ~8 inch red severums in my 130 gallon tank.
There was a bug of some kind that killed a fourth severum in the same tank a few weeks ago, and caused one of the others to show minor irritations - coughing, twitching.
So i increased water changing and dosed with 'maracyn Plus' (biospheres) - although the one severum died, the other severums stopped showing signs of stress and returned to eating and foraging and displaying for the female.

I installed a constant water changer - it pushed through about 60 gallons of water per 24 hours or about 40% of the tank volume, but the actual water change is less than that with such a system, since some of the fresh water goes right back out, and some of the dirty water stays around in the tank, but there is still a lot of fresh water cycling through the tank.
My female severum has been breathing heavily for years, but beginning a week or so after i medicated the tank, she has been too busy breathing to take food or interact with the other severums. She is now pale in color and the heavy breathing is not getting much if any better.

I have heard that constant fresh water changes is the best remedy, but i am obviously now doing this in spades - all other fish are active and non-stressed - even the little corys and congo tetras.
I am contemplating setting up a 10 gallon tank for her and treat with another coarse of maracyn plus, but i'm afraid the shock of netting and moving will kill her - so i am also contemplating re-dosing the 130 gallon tank - expensive and the other fish are fine at this point. also hoping the fresh water is the best option for recovery at this point...

What more can i do? Do i just hope that the fresh water and rest will allow the female to recover? or... give it to me straight, Doc.

More information:
The severums are all 7 years old.
Temp - 79F
pH 6.8 
The pH was very low before i installed water exchanger (~4.6) so i increased it starting with about .4 on the fist two days, and then by about .2 until the pH settled at 6.8 (6.8 is the fresh inlet water pH) - the whole process took over two weeks.
The water changing system has a large charcoal filter to remove chlorine and sediment (Aqua FX canisters) and the water dribbles in at a rate a little faster than dripping. The other fish are all happy and foraging in the tank - 20+ corys and three Congo tetras i got to serve as an 'early warning system'.

Water is now sparkling clean, no odor, less than 0.25 mg/L Ammonia and nitrates/nitrites do not register.
Will provide photo's if necessary.
Thanks for reading, and i appreciate the help.


----------



## Ape-Fish (Jul 1, 2006)

FYI - There are no signs of bloat at this point. Does not try to eat. No white/clear threadlike feces. Just the pale color and ill-defined spots (the bright orange-red spots should stand out boldly but now they are less defined, almost blurry, and creamier in color) 
This is an old tank - long ago cycled - large bio-ball sump filter - very pure west coast water, near RO low in mineral content.
Thanks again for your help


----------



## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

When you say 'bug' in the tank, what exactly do you mean? Did you ever determine what it was? Ick? Velvet? Or did you actually see some kind of parasite? Had you added anything new to the tank prior to the 'bug' such as fish, decorations from another tank or live plants? Or did use 'bug' as a general term for illness? You dosed with Maracyn so was there a concern with a bacterial disease?

How did the ph get to low? Had you gone a long time without a water change? When the ph is low --below 7 any ammonia present converts to a non toxic form but as soon as you raise the ph above 7 the ammonia reverts to it's toxic form and your fish will show immediate symptoms of ammonia poisoning.

The female may have been previously breathing hard due to the stress of being with the males but now obviously this is something else. It's possible that she if fighting something off and the added stress of being with the males is holding her back. I think the only way you're going to know is to remove her.And you'll be able to observe her symptoms better in the 10 gallon. I understand your concern that the stress of netting her will be too stressful and if you don't feel comfortable with that then don't do it. 
I don't think I'd go with Maracyn again unless you're certain its bacterial. It may actually be Bloat at this point so I'd try treating with something like API General Cure, Parasite Guard or Clout.

Love your idea of the constant flow of fresh water-I've always thought that would be ideal for any tank, but a question and perhaps I missed it in your post: how is the new water dechlorinated? 
How long do Severums live? I know from my own fish that when fish get older they seem to have a harder time recovering.

Robin

When I have to catch a fish I find that if I siphon out most of the water the fish seem to lose their will to flee the net. Initially it seems like it's the long way to go but I use to spend the better part of a day when I had to catch a fish.


----------



## Ape-Fish (Jul 1, 2006)

Hi Robin. I appreciate your help.

By 'bug' i meant "possibly some kind of infection" - I'm not aware of any visible 'bugs'.
The severum that has died (two weeks ago now) had half a tail from "tail rot" when i got it six years ago as a 2" juvenile. 
The tail rot quickly cleared up and had been fine until just after the heat of this past summer had the tank go up to maybe 82~83 degrees for a few weeks.
Then the tail rot returned with a vengeance and the fish weakened. Also this severum has always had trouble sucking his pellets up as he would miss the target almost consistently - so it did lose a lot of weight over the years, and developed a somewhat sunken belly, but there was no evidence of stringy or white feces.

A 5 year old congo tratra swelled up and died a few weeks before the before this severum died, then a few day slater the severum developed a red streak in it's tail fin (along the grain) - that's when i began to take action. I did some large water changes and began treating with the maracyn Plus - however the sick severum got worse quickly after that.

I think the pH got so low from an extended period of doing 'not quite large enough' water changes - and forgetting to do pH readings - i now have a pH probe - 6.8 - Thanks for the tip about pH and ammonia! I think that part was essentially OK as the pH was increased very slow after about pH 5~.

For chlorine removal i am using an Aqua-FX twin canister filter - sediment filter followed by charcoal filter - the water comes in at just greater than a drip. The Aquatics store i go to told me that i would only need to change the filter medium every few months. I'm keeping a close eye on it regardless - and the other fish seem happy and healthy. [i would like to have a chlorine test kit]

Ironically, until two weeks ago, she was the only severum not to show distress. I was more worried about the other male, which actually produced a wee bit white slime from his gills before i fixed things. now he seems OK - no heavy breathing, eating, socializing. There was also this gill excrement (white puss) from the severum that died, before it succumbed.

Today the sick female has more color and more contrast (Could this be a good sign?), but she still just sits near or touching the substrate, and does not have any interest for food (she used to almost leap out of the tank to great and get my attention near feeding time).
One of the males has resumed displaying for her, but only in the most gentle manner, and still spends a lot of time just floating beside her as he has since she became ill.

Thanks so much, and i look forward to anything you might be able to add at this point.


----------



## Ape-Fish (Jul 1, 2006)

UPDATE:

Hi Robin, fellow cichlid lovers. 
My severum is still holding its own, but is not getting any better with time (several weeks now). 
She has no interest in food or interactivity, and can be found resting at the at the bottom spme of the time. 
Color has returned some, but still pale.
Heavy breathing continues.
I have noticed that her lips look a bit tender (see photo showing whitish lower right lip.)
No sign of swelling (see profile photos), and no feces - hasn't eaten in some weeks now.
At this point i am researching treatments, and looking into medications i can apply safely to the entire 130G tank.
I have not found anything specific that presents as heavy breathing, refusal of food, paleness with no other symptoms (at this time).
What is your diagnosis upon this additional information? Has it possibly changed? Can we narrow down the probable cause so i can choose the right remedy (and treat the entire tank)?


----------



## Ape-Fish (Jul 1, 2006)

Here showing belly profile - not swollen or sunken...


----------



## Ape-Fish (Jul 1, 2006)

UPDATE #2: (and more questions)
Her lips are definitely swollen now, and white, somewhat distorted from normal shape and size. 
She continues to breath heavily at a little faster than one a second - fast for a 9" cichlid. 
She sits at the bottom at lot now. The other severums are showing some concern for her.

I contacted an on-line fish pharmaceutical company - they suggested gill parasites and recommended i get something called:
De-Los
For control of anchor worms, lice, gill flukes and assorted external parasites on freshwater, Koi and marine tropical fish. Toxic to sharks and snails. Do not use on prehistoric fishes such as arowanas, silver dollars, lionfish. Not for use in tanks which contain invertebrates.

So... should i go ahead with the AP cure all and/or the 'parasite guard'? Is it OK to use both together? (I may not be able to find enough of one type since i will be treating the whole 130G tank.) how about the best medicine that is available in quantities suitable to treating 130G tanks?


----------



## gverde (Mar 3, 2010)

You can treat in a 5G bucket or 10G empty tank with a small 25-50 watt heater and air stone. If you don't have that then you will have to treat the whole tank. 130G is a large tank and it could cost you quite a bit in meds, since most of the med pills are for 10G. I would try to use Parasite Guard. I believe it has more external parasite meds in it than API General Cure. Both can be used together. Aquabid has de-los under the medications section. MVP is the supplier and is the most cost effective place to buy meds. I have used him several times.


----------



## Ape-Fish (Jul 1, 2006)

Thanks, gverde. I bought some Maracyn - enough for two days, and Pimafix and Melafix.
Can i, should i use them all at once?


----------



## Ape-Fish (Jul 1, 2006)

Robin, that's all they had at my LFS but i am going across town tomorrow or Wednesday to get parasite guard and API general cure...


----------



## Ape-Fish (Jul 1, 2006)

UPDATE:
Oh oh. I put in Pimafix acording to the instructions, and now all three severums are on the bottom, not moving fins, like zombies. Half an hour ago they were strutting and larking around the tank. Is this normal? Or should i replace the water?

(BTW - the pH went from 6.78 down to 6.66 upon administering the Pimafix - i have near mineral-less tap water.)


----------



## Ape-Fish (Jul 1, 2006)

Update Addendum: It looks like i didn't read the cap metering right and i gave the tank almost a double dose - 11 caps for 130G. of Pimafix. Please advise. Should i call 911?


----------



## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Sorry I haven't responded to the last few posts--work, no internet.

Anytime fish have an obvious, immediate reaction to a medication or anything you've put in the tank you should do an immediate water change--30-50%.

How are the fish now? 
It's difficult to diagnose fish ailments since many of their ailments show the same or similar symptoms--often all you can do is go with your best guess. I don't think it's parasites but I can't say for sure. 
Further complicating things is that with antibiotics sometimes you have to try a few different ones as not all antibiotics treat all things. 
After the Maracyn if you don't see any improvement I'd go with something like API General cure. Or if you can find it: Kanaplex(Kanamycin).

I won't be home from work till late tonight but I'll try to check in with you. Sorry your fish isn't responding. Doesn't help that she's on the older side. Hope we can save her

Robin


----------



## Ape-Fish (Jul 1, 2006)

No problem, Robin, and thank you.

The two severums recovered after a few hours, and the congo tetras and corys were all fine during the episode, but when i got up today i found the sick severum dead.
At this point i am wondering how to proceed.
The water changer continues to cycle at ~60G per 24Hr, or half the water volume, but i am concerned about a white streak (pigment, not slime on surface) i haven't noticed before, on the bottom fin of one of the severums, so i am hoping there is a way to ensure the disease doesn't spread to the healthy fish at this point. Any suggestions for a situation like this?
Thanks.


----------



## Ape-Fish (Jul 1, 2006)

Here's the pale spot on his lower fin [may be new development]


----------



## Ape-Fish (Jul 1, 2006)

Here's a view from his other side:


----------



## Ape-Fish (Jul 1, 2006)

Thew pale spots on body are reflections of the aquarium glass.


----------



## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Sorry the fish didn't make it.

If the remaining fish are eating normally and swimming normally then I wouldn't make too much of the discoloration. Watch it closely to see if it's getting larger or changing in any way. 
How exactly are you declorinating the water? Does your tap water contain chloramines/ chlorine?

Robin


----------



## Ape-Fish (Jul 1, 2006)

Hi. Good question about the chlorine.

My tap water contains chlorine, and is removed with a Aqau-FX [they make reverse osmosis filters too] dual canister filter - charcoal, sediment.
http://www.jlaquatics.com/product/ro-ft ... dd-On.html
I was advised by my local aquarium and reef outlet that this will work fine, and the charcoal section needs to be changed a couple times a year at the flow rate i am using. The manager at the store said he dechlorinates 6,000 gallons a day with his system. I'll try to get more information on this tomorrow. I did get some congo tretras as 'coal mine canaries' and they are doing fine so far. That reminds me, i want to find a chlorine test kit.

As to the severums, i'm still a little concerned because one of them, the one with the fin marking, is now gulping after every ten or so 'breaths', and is visibly breathing, although not labored... yet. I don't know if it's my imagination or not, but it almost looks like his lips are ever so slightly extended and whitish - no fuzz though.

So far all i have administered is the one dose of Pimafix yesterday. Today at this time about half will be gone as there has been a water change of about half the tank. [60G of 130G tank]
I have more Pimafix, Melafix, Maracyn to try, and will be going to the 'big' reef store tomorrow and can pick up anything else you recommend i have on hand, just in case. [will also get the API General cure tomorrow]


----------



## Ape-Fish (Jul 1, 2006)

Hi guys. So i still have two Severums left, but they are still sick, and one of them has very little finnage left. I have tried all the usual antibiotics. These antibiotics do slow the progression of the fin rotting, but the rotting resumes once the treatments have finished. I am going to try 'Cupramine' nest, but i am concerned for my Corydoras and want to get your opinion before i proceed- Is cupramine safe for Corydoras?
TIA.


----------

