# Dwarf cichild deaths



## joeinlondon (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi All

I hope I am not repeating previous strings. I did a quick search but found nothing so here goes a long and rather sad story..

I can't seem to keep dwarf cichlids!

These are the facts as they happened: set up 40L planted tank. A week in added shoal of cardinal tetras. Two weeks in added pair of Apistogramma agassizi (AA) and small Ancistrus sp., three weeks in pair spawned but eggs feared eaten/unhatched. Six or seven weeks in pair spawned again, no fry. About ten weeks in female begins to bloat, loses balance and is euthanised. Eleven or twelve weeks in male struggles with a bubble and dies instantly - assume this was a freak occurence.

During this time feeding was a mixture of flake, dried tubifex, frozen bloodworm, frozen brineshrimp and frozen whiteworm. Temp 24; pH 7.2 - 7.4, Ammonia and nitrite 0, nitrate very low due to using RO/tapwater 80/20 mix, 30% per week, and strong growth from plants. However - during the AA Era a suspect black bucket was used for the water changes, and I allowed a lot of detritus to build up on the substrate (I did not hoover it during water changes), as I thought it would fertilise the plants. Also, the cichlid's breathing was rapid throughout, due to low oxygen and C02 injection, and the tank being taller rather than long.

A week after male AAs death (say month 4) add pair of Apistogramma hongsloi (AH). Pair spawn within two days of addition - again no fry. Pair spawn again in month 4, no fry, male begins to deteriorate - lethargic, damage to gills. Treat for parasites, no effect. Male deteriorates further - gills being eaten away, indentation/ulcer on his head - takes a good few days to lose orientation, is euthanised. Month 5 female behaving normally. Month 6 she begins darting, and flashing, but then shows no symptons for a couple of weeks before suddenly getting pop-eye, loses orientation and is euthanised.

During the AH Era (forgive these grandiose terms) maintenance, water parameters and feeding was the same as the AA Era. Cardinals and Ancistrus sp. fine - cichlids, even at height of spawning, breathing 'hard' but thought this just due to low oxygen.

Month 7: pair of Mikrogeophagus ramirezi added. They alternate between displaying and nestbuilding/courtship to swimming up and down the glass as if trying to get out - not in the normal begging for food sense, but as if they are distressed. Thinking they are cramped I move everyone to a new 67L tank (but with all the same equipment and water) and behavour changes to outright spawning - up to wriggler stage before they spat them helpfully at the filter intake, so that was the end of that. Then male and female began fighting - female capitulated and was hounded relentlessly by male - who was removed and taken back to the shop. I added another male who instantly began flashing, stretching his head from side to side and not colouring up properly. He was accidently half-dropped into the tank so his introduction must have been very shocking, unfortunately. He also had to be taken back because he could not stand up to the resident female. To provide interest a large adult Mikrogeophagus altispinosus was added.

During the Ram Era feeding and water parameters remained the same, but maintenance was tightened so that all detritus was syphoned from the substrate, and anaerobic patches under the bogwood dispersed. On learning that the black bucket used for water changes might be toxic, this was changed to a food grade one. Night aeration was also introduced. New water was added very slowly to prevent water temperature dropping more than a degree.

However we are now at about month 8 and the female ram has just died with dropsy. Before that she was flashing and yawning, and using her pectoral fins to rub at her eyes, so I treated with Sterazin (anti-flukes), but came back from a short holiday to find her bloated. Before she died there had been something behind her right eye, which I think the Sterazin removed, and which left an indentation in its passing. Now the male Bolivian is also rubbing at his eyes with his fins, and occaisionally flashing on the substrate. He has very large eyes but I can see no discolouration or parasite. I am treating with an anti internal bacterial remedy in the hope that it will eradicate this invisible menace of my fish - and have yet to see any evidence of a parasite.

I apologise for the length of the above - but I want to put it all on the table. Any explanation or help as to why I am losing previously happily breeding fish would be most appreciated. It has heartbreaking seeing these fishes' demise - especially the female ram - as she was quite simply my most favourite fish I have ever kept! Okay enough emotion - but I'm sure you know how it is. I want to keep dwarf cichlids successfully - any help to further that aim would be much appreciated.

Yours

Joe


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

For future reference, when you submit a post and it seems to "hang", don't hit submit again. Just hit the refresh button and your post should be there. :thumb:

I'd also be interested in knowing what type test kits you are using - liquid reagent, or strips?

How long have you had them? How long have they been open?

Your problems really sound water quality related.

Is it possible that you are overfeeding, contributing to excess waste between the weekly water changes?

Are you using dechlorinator for the tap water used in the water changes? (One that removes both chlorine and chloramines...)


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## joeinlondon (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi C'holic

Sorry about submitting twenty times! Consider me admonished.

I am using Hagen liquid reagent test kits. I have two for ammonia (fearing one was faulty), three for pH and they all say the same thing. I have had the water tested at the shop and I get the same results - namely zeros where you want them, nitrates <5mg/l (or is it ppm?) and pH 7.5. They have been open for eight months so I don't think it's time to change them yet.

I think I was overfeeding. But since the Hongsloi Era I cut back a bit. The Rams only get frozen food once or twice a week, and literally all flake food is consumed within seconds, rather than tens of seconds - that's how little I feed.

Yes I use a conditioner for chlorine and chloramine (also Hagen) - and I use the amount for the whole of the new water - not just the tapwater 20% of it.

I don't think it is water quality - that's the problem. I wish it was - that would be easy. But if water quality was poor they wouldn't all have spawned, right? Why do I get two or three months of top health and spawning, and then death? Why do the Cardinals (supposedly still a sensitive species) breeze through unharmed if it was water quality?

Thanks

Joe


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I wasn't scolding you, Joe! I just figured out the "refresh" thing myself and I'm showing off! :lol:

8 months is too long (IMO) for a test kit to be open...6 months max...But, you've done what I was going to suggest next and had someone else double check your results.

Water quality wouldn't necessarily prevent spawning activity. It might inhibit the success of actually raising the fry...

It really seems to me that it's a "build up" of something, but with weekly water changes and a good dechlorinator and you monitoring the food, I can't imagine what it is.

It's always possible that the fish are coming from vastly different water initially, and it's just taking a toll on them over time, but over and over again??? Besides, most tank raised fish are a bit more "forgiving"...Were it just the rams, it would be different...

I'm stumped.


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## addicted2cichlid (Apr 8, 2008)

why are you keeping your fish in constant low oxygen levels? i would imagine if i didnt have the amount of air i needed to function properly i would probably get sick too.

who knows what extra stress its putting on the fish.

also keeping apistos with a shoal of cardinals in a tank about 10 gallons isnt the best of ideas either, probably a lil cramped in there.

i would give them a try with the proper circulation/filtration they need, in a tank about double the footprint of the one u have now.

and your ph is high for the rams.


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## joeinlondon (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi Addicted and C'holic - thanks for your responses.

I agree - 40L for the stocking I had was too small. They are now in a 67L tank with over twice the footprint of the old one.

I have noticed something else - since I went away on holiday, and the Ancistrus suicided out of the top of the tank, where before the sand substrate used to be covered in faeces that I struggled to hoover up during the weekly water change, now there are absolutely none visible. I haven't fed any frozen food since getting back (when I did a 30L water change and hoovered everything up) and the substrate is mysteriously spotless.

*Should any faeces be noticeable in a well-kept tank?* Perhaps I was simply overstocking and overfeeding - and this is the build-up you mentioned. What do you think? Bacterial infections (which cause dropsy and pop-eye) are thought to start in the gut, so them picking around in all this rubbish - could it be the cause?

Regarding pH - all the fish came from shops stocking them in tapwater at around 8.2 (London water can be very alkaline), so I thought I was doing them a favour by putting them in softer, more acidic water of 7.4. As I said I now aerate at night and there are no high breathing rates.

I still don't understand why I get breeding and then demise! It's like something's gonna get them no matter what I do. At present there is just the male Bolivian and 8 cardinals, and apart from the occasional eye-rub with his pectoral he seems fine. But obviously I want to make sure I know what I'm doing, so I don't repeat these crimes.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

What is the footprint of this tank?

The only risk I see in keeping the fish you're keeping in a smaller size tank is aggression related, and your fish don't sound like they are sucuumbing to aggression. It's always possible, but in slower moving fish like this, you usually witness it.

Bigger tanks are always better, but I'm not convinced that was your problem, unless this is an unusually shaped tank.

The pleco can make a lot of waste, so this may be why you aren't seeing as much. If your filtration is working well, it shouldn't be an issue, but plecos seem to produce more waste than believable at times.

Both dropsy and pop eye can be contributed to sepsis of some sort, whether it be from water quality or infection. I'm not aware of either stemming from the "gut". (Are you possibly confusing dropsy with bloat?)

If it were a sudden change in ph, you would see immediate stress, so that's not it. You might try matching your water more closely to the LFS water, and slowly lowering your ph the next time, but I don't think this is your problem, either.

Is there a Co2 injection system on the tank?


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## joeinlondon (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi C'holic

Yes there is a CO2 system on it - an aerosol attached to a cylinder which is open at the bottom, and that you fill each morning to dissolve into the water - if you see what I mean. Not very accurate. The first tank was unusually shaped - like an elongated cube (elongated upwards), and in this tank the breathing rates of the cichlids was always high - but not diseased style high if you see what I mean. I read today in the Baensch Atlas that AAs don't like low oxygen levels. Do you think a combination of an odd shaped tank and the CO2 injection could have done them in?

The current tank is 60cm by 30cm - the outlet for the internal filter is at the surface and I aerate at night - so I think I have now (at least) eliminated any lack of oxygen problems.

By dropsy and pop-eye I mean any systemic bacterial infections - I read somewhere that they originate in the gut and then spread through the system.

Regarding pH - I would love to have the space to quarantine new cichilds and lower the pH over a week or so but I don't at the moment. Would you strongly recommend this as general practice for dwarf cichilds?

And you're right - that Ancistrus could s**t for Brazil! I still don't undertstand why the substrate is now spotless. Perhaps with the loss of numbers it has reached an equilibrium of some sort.

Thanks for staying with me on this one C'holic - I am appreciating your input.

Joe


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