# SUMP ADVICE NEEDED.



## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

Just purchased a marineland corner overflow 90 gallon tank. The over flow is rated for 700 gph. My head height is going to be about 55 inches, I am looking at pumps that will give me 700 gph at this head height. Would their be any reason for a pump with a higher gph. Would also like some suggestions for pumps. This is not going to be a budget build, I've been looking at some in the $200.00 to $250.00 price range. Not looking for cheap, I'm looking for very good quality. Also, do I hard plumb the sump or use flex tubing, what do ya'll think.
Thinking about using a 29 gal tank for the sump, I will be adding the baffles. This set-up will be freshwater for african cichlids 
Looking for any advice on this type of set-up. Thank You.


----------



## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

im all for flex tubing, even if it is minimal it gives some relief on the turns that pvc elbows dont... imo...

just tested my pumps with:

1 in pvc pipe, 2 - 45 deg elbows and 2 - 90 deg elbows...

1 in pvc pipe, 4 - 90 deg elbows...

and with a 1 in hose / flex pond tubing...

from my filter to inside the tank and the pressure and the flow are considerably better with the hose / flex pond tubing...

:fish: :fish: :fish: 8) ... :thumb: ... =D> :fish: :fish: :fish:


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

You definitely want to buy a return pump that has a flow rate higher than what the overflow is capable of flowing. The head height and any bends in the return are going to cut that rating in half pretty much. I would suggest buying one that flows at least 1400 gph and also has an adjustable speed controller. You don't want the pump maxed out all the time, they last a lot longer that way.


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Also, I'd hard pipe your drains using a pvc reducer to go up a size from your bulkheads and you won't have as much of a drop in flow if you have to 90 over...


----------



## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

Ideally the actual flow of the pump will be slightly LOWER than the overflow capacity. That way, you don't have the concern of filling the tank faster than the overflow is capable of draining. You can also run the pump wide open with no restrictions on the outlet. My experience has been with the Mag Drive pumps also on Marineland tanks. I used to use a Mag7 with an HOB overflow which was slightly smaller than yours it. I'd think you could safely bump up to the Mag9.5 with a single overflow, given the head height, and assuming you are using the Marineland return.

All that said, don't be worried about squeezing every last bit of throughput, one of the great benefits of a sump is the ability to hold a tremendous amount of media, and there is a school of thought that a slower passage (longer contact time) through the media is of great benefit in terms of filtration.

If you have not yet built the sump, consider going to either a 30 long, rather than a 29 if it fits. This will leave you more space between the top of the sump and the underside of the stand and allow you to work on the media and whatnot in the sump a lot easier. I have only about 5" between the sump and bottom of stand on my 125, and it is just barely enough space to change foam and maintain the pump.


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

nodima said:


> Ideally the actual flow of the pump will be slightly LOWER than the overflow capacity. That way, you don't have the concern of filling the tank faster than the overflow is capable of draining. You can also run the pump wide open with no restrictions on the outlet. My experience has been with the Mag Drive pumps also on Marineland tanks. I used to use a Mag7 with an HOB overflow which was slightly smaller than yours it. I'd think you could safely bump up to the Mag9.5 with a single overflow, given the head height, and assuming you are using the Marineland return.
> 
> All that said, don't be worried about squeezing every last bit of throughput, one of the great benefits of a sump is the ability to hold a tremendous amount of media, and there is a school of thought that a slower passage (longer contact time) through the media is of great benefit in terms of filtration.
> 
> If you have not yet built the sump, consider going to either a 30 long, rather than a 29 if it fits. This will leave you more space between the top of the sump and the underside of the stand and allow you to work on the media and whatnot in the sump a lot easier. I have only about 5" between the sump and bottom of stand on my 125, and it is just barely enough space to change foam and maintain the pump.


 I have to respectfully disagree about the underpowered pump. I'm running two return pumps that are way "overpowered" with two one inch drains, 3/4 returns and about a 4 foot head. They're both running at 3/4 throttle. IMO and experience, an overpowered adjustable speed DC pump is better to get the most flow possible.


----------



## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> nodima said:
> 
> 
> > Ideally the actual flow of the pump will be slightly LOWER than the overflow capacity. That way, you don't have the concern of filling the tank faster than the overflow is capable of draining. You can also run the pump wide open with no restrictions on the outlet. My experience has been with the Mag Drive pumps also on Marineland tanks. I used to use a Mag7 with an HOB overflow which was slightly smaller than yours it. I'd think you could safely bump up to the Mag9.5 with a single overflow, given the head height, and assuming you are using the Marineland return.
> ...


I don't think we are too far apart - we both are saying to have just enough GPH to not overwhelm the overflow. My preference is not to use valves or other methods to run a pump at something other than full. I don't know the OP, and IMO recommending a "way" overpowered pump in a setup to someone new to sumps and how they work is borderline irresponsible. All that has to happen is to forget to dial back the pump, or set it to be just a hair too strong, so that things look fine at that time, but in a few hours or a day, the tank overflows. Much safer to not allow that scenario to happen in the first place, which is why I'd not recommend a larger pump than the overflow can handle.


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I don't use valves to control the flow rate of my pumps at all and don't recommend doing so. However, I suggested getting a DC pump with an electronic controller that adjusts the speed of the pump with the push of a button, instead of using valves to control the flow rate. It's pretty much idiot proof lol. I do not like the pumps that have one set flow rate, there's much better technology out there now. It's better to buy a pump with more power that's equipped with a controller and have plenty of adjustable flow rate than to be stuck with a $250 underpowered pump. I don't think it's irresponsible to suggest a better alternative to the outdated single speed pumps.


----------



## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

joselepiu said:


> im all for flex tubing, even if it is minimal it gives some relief on the turns that pvc elbows dont... imo...
> 
> just tested my pumps with:
> 
> ...


This is what I was thinking, do away with the angles to help make flow very consistent. Thank you for the input.


----------



## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

nodima said:


> Ideally the actual flow of the pump will be slightly LOWER than the overflow capacity. That way, you don't have the concern of filling the tank faster than the overflow is capable of draining. You can also run the pump wide open with no restrictions on the outlet. My experience has been with the Mag Drive pumps also on Marineland tanks. I used to use a Mag7 with an HOB overflow which was slightly smaller than yours it. I'd think you could safely bump up to the Mag9.5 with a single overflow, given the head height, and assuming you are using the Marineland return.
> 
> All that said, don't be worried about squeezing every last bit of throughput, one of the great benefits of a sump is the ability to hold a tremendous amount of media, and there is a school of thought that a slower passage (longer contact time) through the media is of great benefit in terms of filtration.
> 
> If you have not yet built the sump, consider going to either a 30 long, rather than a 29 if it fits. This will leave you more space between the top of the sump and the underside of the stand and allow you to work on the media and whatnot in the sump a lot easier. I have only about 5" between the sump and bottom of stand on my 125, and it is just barely enough space to change foam and maintain the pump.


I was wondering if you could over power the return causing over flow problems.
Yep...definitely going to check the clearance above the sump before I make a final choice. If nothing else, I can build my own sump and make the dimensions to suite my needs. Thank you for all of your input.


----------



## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> I don't use valves to control the flow rate of my pumps at all and don't recommend doing so. However, I suggested getting a DC pump with an electronic controller that adjusts the speed of the pump with the push of a button, instead of using valves to control the flow rate. It's pretty much idiot proof lol. I do not like the pumps that have one set flow rate, there's much better technology out there now. It's better to buy a pump with more power that's equipped with a controller and have plenty of adjustable flow rate than to be stuck with a $250 underpowered pump. I don't think it's irresponsible to suggest a better alternative to the outdated single speed pumps.


I think you and nodima are headed in the same direction ...just taking different paths.
I am very interested in the adjustable speed pumps. Can you give me some brand names you might recommend? Thank you for all the input.


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

BlueSunshine said:


> joselepiu said:
> 
> 
> > im all for flex tubing, even if it is minimal it gives some relief on the turns that pvc elbows dont... imo...
> ...


Flex hose or tubing works great from the return pump to the bulkhead as long as there are no dips in it and it's properly supported, I wouldn't use it on drains unless it drops practically straight down though. I run Current USA pumps and they are great.


----------



## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

Some more questions. Would a ball valve be needed on the drain side so it can be shut off for maintenance?
Would also like to hear thoughts on filter socks.


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

BlueSunshine said:


> Some more questions. Would a ball valve be needed on the drain side so it can be shut off for maintenance?
> Would also like to hear thoughts on filter socks.


Yes on the ball valve for the drain. The valve will also be used to adjust the flow so you can match it to the return pump. There should be a secondary drain as well, are there only two holes drilled? I used the mesh filter socks for a short time but I got tired of changing them out so frequently and having to adjust everything practically daily. It would probably be okay with a light bioload though. A couple more things before I go lol, be prepared to take apart your diy sump a couple of times until you get it right and test it out on the tank before adding fish. You also want to set up your return reservoir where it doesn't hold enough water to overflow the display when it's at the level you want it to be, just in case something impedes the drain or the media gets clogged etc... You want the least restrictive media as reasonably possible to prevent slowing down the flow and throwing the drain and return off balance. So minimal mechanical filtration media is best. I use a secondary canister filter with the intake and return hoses in the first chamber of the sump for the purposes of fine mechanical filtration and a blue and white bonded pad to prefilter my biomedia in the sump. If you have any other questions I'll be glad to help any way I can.


----------



## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> BlueSunshine said:
> 
> 
> > joselepiu said:
> ...


in interest of learning - why the aversion to flex pipe on a drain?

I find flex tubing to be much less finicky and easier than hard plumbing pvc, but if there is logical reason to switch, i'm not opposed


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I've used it before and unless you support it over a span it tends to bow in the middle and decrease the rate of flow. I got much more flow by going up a size in PVC from the bulkhead. It seemed to increase the siphoning effect and I ended up having to get a second return pump to keep up with the added flow over tubing.


----------



## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

Yes, there are only 2 hole drilled in the tank over flow box. It comes with the plumbing for inside the over flow as well. When you say return chamber you are talking in the sump and the display is the tank itself....correct?
I should have the tank next week and will definitely have lots more questions.


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Yes the return reservoir is in the sump where the return pump would be and the display tank is the one the fish live in. I guess both holes are meant to be drains because there should always be a secondary drain in case one gets blocked. You may have to run your return plumbing behind the tank like you would traditionally.


----------



## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> Yes the return reservoir is in the sump where the return pump would be and the display tank is the one the fish live in. I guess both holes are meant to be drains because there should always be a secondary drain in case one gets blocked. You may have to run your return plumbing behind the tank like you would traditionally.


NO. In the marineland tanks, there is one drain, and one return. The drain is the larger of the two holes.


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

nodima said:


> caldwelldaniel26 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes the return reservoir is in the sump where the return pump would be and the display tank is the one the fish live in. I guess both holes are meant to be drains because there should always be a secondary drain in case one gets blocked. You may have to run your return plumbing behind the tank like you would traditionally.
> ...


OKAY. I don't buy Marineland tanks so I'm not familiar with their products but that's not a very good design and I would never suggest having only one drain on an overflow, whether Marineland tanks come that way or not. It's always better to have an emergency or secondary drain in case one gets plugged.


----------



## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

Silly question....what is going to plug the drain. It looked to be about 1.5"? :-? :-?
I do understand the reason behind a backup drain.


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

BlueSunshine said:


> Silly question....what is going to plug the drain. It looked to be about 1.5"? :-? :-?
> I do understand the reason behind a backup drain.


I had a Bristlenose Pleco get sucked down the drain one time and get lodged just before the valve. Almost overflowed the tank and would have had it not been for the second drain


----------



## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

Alright...I did some research on your two drain recommendation, this what I came up with. What I have is a durso drain setup and would be changing it to a bean animal drain setup, with the output coming over the back of the tank of course. Looks pretty simple to me. :thumb: 
What else can you recommend???


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Yeah that's basically the setup I have on my tank. Both of my drains are fully submerged and it actually flows a lot more water because of the siphoning effect it creates. Looks like you're on the right track, just let me know if you run into any issues you can't address by researching.


----------



## greid (Jul 25, 2017)

Just set up my first sump and still fixing my errors. System was running previously when I bought the sump, pump and tank used.

My tank only has 2 - 1.5 in lines; I fixed pumping errors and added ball valve to drain line along with quick disconnects.
This way i can turn ball valves off and remove all the pumping without having to drain the tank.

Discharge line goes quick disconnect - pump - check valve - quick disconnect - ball valve then into tank.

I was able to get the flow right by adjusting the ball valve and adding line to feed part of the discharge water back into the sump.
This work but noise is too loud for location (family room). Waiting to install Octupus VarioS-4 Controllable Circulation Pump. 
Way to many re-dos - should have done more like you are asking questions and planning ahead.

Hope this helps
Graham


----------



## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

greid said:


> Just set up my first sump and still fixing my errors. System was running previously when I bought the sump, pump and tank used.
> 
> My tank only has 2 - 1.5 in lines; I fixed pumping errors and added ball valve to drain line along with quick disconnects.
> This way i can turn ball valves off and remove all the pumping without having to drain the tank.
> ...


I've never had a sump and heard all the horror stories about wet floors. This is why I am doing so much research and asking a lot of questions. Thanks for the input, every bit helps.


----------



## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

Alright...Say I use one drain and one return as the tank is designed. My sump is set up with a shallow return chamber. Now my single drain gets plugged up with, oh.... I don't know ...let's say a bristlenose pleco :lol: :lol: 
Wouldn't the shallow return chamber empty out preventing my display tank from over flowing???


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I suppose if you set it up that way and test it out it would save you some time. I don't know why I didn't think about that lol. Then if that darn bristlenose pleco decides his life is going down the drain, you won't have to worry about it overflowing.


----------



## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> BlueSunshine said:
> 
> 
> > Some more questions. Would a ball valve be needed on the drain side so it can be shut off for maintenance?
> ...


Seeing how you brought it up first... we'll let you slide this time!!!
I'm really liking the dc adjustable speed pumps. Thanks for mentioning them.


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

You're welcome  Most of those pumps have an auto shutdown if the pump runs dry so you don't have to worry about burning it up. One of these days, once you get your sump flowing right and balanced, we will discuss auto topoff systems. One thing at a time though lol.


----------



## Lee79 (Nov 7, 2017)

I have a 100g with a 55g sitting under it for a sump. I use a Jebao dct-6000 as a return. It is the best piece of equipment I have in my set-up, it's a DC pump w/ 10 speed settings . I don't know about other brands of DC pumps, but this is one extremely quiet. My tank is in my bedroom so I value quiet. To give perspective, my return pump is as quiet as medium sized powerhead, it's makes much less noise than an air pump. From across the room I can't hear the pump, only the trickling of water through the overflow. I will never own another AC return pump again.


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Lee79 said:


> I have a 100g with a 55g sitting under it for a sump. I use a Jebao dct-6000 as a return. It is the best piece of equipment I have in my set-up, it's a DC pump w/ 10 speed settings . I don't know about other brands of DC pumps, but this is one extremely quiet. My tank is in my bedroom so I value quiet. To give perspective, my return pump is as quiet as medium sized powerhead, it's makes much less noise than an air pump. From across the room I can't hear the pump, only the trickling of water through the overflow. I will never own another AC return pump again.


Same here, they are just leaps and bounds above the old AC single speed pumps. The great thing about DC pumps is that you don't have to spend $400 to get a quiet, well performing pump


----------



## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

what brands / models do you guys have?...


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

The OP has a Jebao 6000, I have a Jebao 12000 and a Current USA 6010


----------



## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

thx...


----------



## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> The OP has a Jebao 6000, I have a Jebao 12000 and a Current USA 6010


I took some time and did a lot of research on dc pumps. I decided to go with a current usa dc6010. I've dealt with this company on a product that was out of warranty and what they did for me was way above and beyond anything expected!!! :thumb:
The jebao's are alot cheaper but then again they are also cheap( a little history with this brand already)   .
Also picked up our tank a couple of days ago. :dancing:


----------



## Lee79 (Nov 7, 2017)

BlueSunshine said:


> caldwelldaniel26 said:
> 
> 
> > The OP has a Jebao 6000, I have a Jebao 12000 and a Current USA 6010
> ...


Looks like a solid choice. Your ears will thank you.


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

BlueSunshine said:


> caldwelldaniel26 said:
> 
> 
> > The OP has a Jebao 6000, I have a Jebao 12000 and a Current USA 6010
> ...


Awesome, you're going to really like that pump. Their customer service is second only to Tunze when it comes to aquarium products. If you're ever in the market for an ATO, it's the only brand I'd recommend.


----------



## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> Also, I'd hard pipe your drains using a pvc reducer to go up a size from your bulkheads and you won't have as much of a drop in flow if you have to 90 over...


This is what I came up with to increase the drain pipe size after it goes through the bulkhead. It threads over the outside of the bulkhead allowing me to use 1 1/4" pvc going into my sump.


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Good deal, just make sure you use a good Teflon tape to seal the threads. Personally I recommend the Blue Monster brand because it works great. It's a little more expensive than the plain old white Teflon tape but it's worth it.


----------



## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

and use a little more than you think it is enough...   

:fish: :thumb: =D> :fish:


----------



## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

Look what the mail lady dropped off today!!!


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Woohoo, Christmas came a couple of weeks early lol.


----------



## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

if is an extra one...
can i have it?...
:lol: :lol: :lol: ...


----------



## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

joselepiu said:


> if is an extra one...
> can i have it?...
> :lol: :lol: :lol: ...


I see what you did there. :wink: :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> Yes the return reservoir is in the sump where the return pump would be and the display tank is the one the fish live in. I guess both holes are meant to be drains because there should always be a secondary drain in case one gets blocked. You may have to run your return plumbing behind the tank like you would traditionally.


How does this grab you?????


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

BlueSunshine said:


> caldwelldaniel26 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes the return reservoir is in the sump where the return pump would be and the display tank is the one the fish live in. I guess both holes are meant to be drains because there should always be a secondary drain in case one gets blocked. You may have to run your return plumbing behind the tank like you would traditionally.
> ...


NICE, talk about getting a ridiculous amount of flow out of your overflows! I would have to get some bigger pumps lol. My entire background serves as the overflow since I cut out the stock overflow box and don't have to worry about it restricting my flow rates. I just have straight stand pipes with no 90's, it pulls one heck of a siphon too! I have them low enough that they don't make noise but not so low that it would overflow the sump. It took lots of trial and error but it works well.


----------



## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

how does the water on the bottom of the overflow gets cycled?... :-? :-? :-? 
if the syphon pipes do not go all the way down, not even half... :-? :-? :-?
:fish: :roll: :? opcorn: :? :roll: :fish:


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I have circulation pumps. In a normal overflow, the water flowing over the top would create a current that stirs up the bottom.


----------



## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> I have circulation pumps. In a normal overflow, the water flowing over the top would create a current that stirs up the bottom.


i do not think that it flows down from high enough to create a strong enough current as to really stir the bottom of the overflow box... 
but then again not an expert here...
:fish:  :fish:


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

You could use a powerhead if you were really concerned about not having enough circulation.


----------



## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

:thumb: :thumb: :thumb: ...


----------

