# hybrids in the wild?



## malawisteven (Oct 7, 2013)

Everyone always seems to frown on hybrids, and i get it there inconsistencies are difficult to gauge. But it seems to be in there nature to crossbred so my thought is *** read articles on the masses. Of cichlids schoolin in big groups. So what keeps them from crossbreeding in the wild. And if they do how would u tell pure blood?


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

It isn't in their nature to crossbreed, other wise you wouldn't see so many strains ( color morphs) of the same species in relatively close proximity, not intermingling. Animals want their own species. The rift lakes have swarms of different species living in close proximity, and yet they choose their own species. When confined without options the scenario changes some what. There are some case of hybrids in the wild. Mexico has a hybrid cichlid in one area.


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## Narwhal72 (Sep 26, 2006)

There are always some cases of hybridization in the wild but it is very rare on it's own (without the assistance of man). This is for many reasons:
1. Fish may be separated by barriers that prevent hybridization. In Lake Malawi this is usually deep water or open sandy areas that separate the reefs from each other.
2. Different species spawn at different times of the year.
3. Different species have different spawning techniques or displays that are only attractive to opposite sex members of the same species.
4. Different species look very different from each other so they are not recognized as potential mates.

There are many other, more subtle reasons but the above 4 are the main reasons why hybridization is such a rare event in the wild.

Andy


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## chopsteeks (Jul 23, 2013)

Hybridization in the wild:

I believe this happens all the time. Humans are the ones that made classifications of african cichlids. How do we really know what is going on in the depths of the lakes ?

Research Frontosa/Gibberosa. Humans classified Zaire Frontosas based on collection points. But really, Kapampa/Moba/Mikula variants are identical. I challenge anyone to distinguish one variant from the other.

Hey there is hybridization within the human species.....I can already hear the fish arguing about this too.....


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

In "Malawi Cichlids in their natural habitat - 4th edition," Ad Konings writes that he has observed maybe 1 or 2 hybrids in Lake Malawi in the wild over the course of hundreds of dives, observing hundreds of thousands of fish. So obviously it can happen, but the rate at which it happens is super low and it's not even known if that first generation of hybrids is successful at passing their genes along to a 2nd gen.

One of the major distinctions that naturalists and taxonomists use in defining a new species is based on whether gene pool A mixes with gene pool B in nature. The divergence of two gene pools (causing them to no longer mix) happens under either of the following circumstances:
1) Group B is no longer physically capable of breeding with Group A (or the hybrid offspring are infertile)
2) Group B is no longer in contact with group A (An event such as receding water levels in the lake in which two adjacent reefs were once adjoined, but now separated by land/rocks can cause this)

A few thousand years later, through natural selection, group B starts looking/behaving slightly differently than group A. That's how speciation occurs.

Let's take a look at the converse of this argument as well - that _hybridization occurs regularly within Lake Malawi_. What would we expect the fish in the lake to look like? We'd see a lot of varying shades of brownish-bluish, not quite vertical striped, not-quite horizontal-striped fish. It would look a lot like the "mixed african cichlid tank" at some pet stores.

Therefore, by definition almost - it's going to be rare that species A hybridizes with species B. And in fact, if this were common, we'd see convergence of the two species (they would start looking like one species because their gene pool is shared).

There are exceptions to this rule of little hybridization which occur when geographic-shifting events, such as a hurricane or severe flooding which severely alter the established landscape...or water-scape. In such events, two groups which had been out of contact probably for several thousand years, may contact one another again and hybridization is likely to occur at a much higher rate.



> Hey there is hybridization within the human species.....I can already hear the fish arguing about this too..


What other species do humans hybridize with? Any flavor of **** sapiens x **** sapiens yields **** sapiens


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

chopsteeks said:


> How do we really know what is going on in the depths of the lakes ?


Of course we don't and can't see everything that goes on in the depths of lakes. But when people observe fish breeding in there natural habitat, it's in almost all cases, same species. 
If hybiridization was occurring at such a high rate......it would show in the mitochondrial DNA! There would be recent maternal ancestors with other species that would give contradictory and very conflicting results. 


chopsteeks said:


> Hybridization in the wild: I believe this happens all the time.


No doubt. It's well known that it happens in lake Malawi, Tanganyika as well as other cichlids. The question is to what extent? According to ichthyologists, very seldom is it statistically significant.

And in many cases when hybrids are produced, they are at a competitive disadvantage. When a species is specifically designed to make a living in a certain way, the in-between offspring that are like neither parent, have less of a chance. Since they aren't quite like either parent, they are not quite properly desighned to make a living like either parent. And the chances of survival are already very, very slim.



chopsteeks said:


> Humans are the ones that made classifications of african cichlids. Research Frontosa/Gibberosa. Humans classified Zaire Frontosas based on collection points. But really, Kapampa/Moba/Mikula variants are identical. I challenge anyone to distinguish one variant from the other.


Not too sure what this has to do with hybirdization? Even amongst scientists, there isn't always agreement where the lines should be drawn between species. From my perspective, no doubt, sometimes the ichthyologists go overboard making too many species out of virtually the same thing!


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## malawisteven (Oct 7, 2013)

Im not saying that its happening all the time but, they breed hybrids such as strawberry peacocks in captivity
Whos to say that some speices arent some form of hybrids formed over the years.
They are constantly renaming species


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

There would be less species in the Lake if hybridization was successful, not more. Isolation is what makes new species. The fish know who to breed with in nature.

Sure, there is some amount of hybrids in the Lake, but they are just abnormalities that either do not breed successfully, or get bred back into the parent species. If hybridization was very common and successful, there would be LESS species, not more. 2 species would merge into one. Species would become less specialized.
The idea that species A would breed with species B and create species C is incorrect under normal circumstances. Why would the hybrids know to only breed with other hybrids to create the new species? The hybrids C would breed with both A and B, pluralizing the species into one vague hybrid population. But that doesn't seem to happen in the long run.
The only time hybrids might survive as a new "species" is if there was a catastrophic change in the environment and the original species go extinct, the hybrids might survive. This might be happening in Lake Victoria now, but scientists are not sure far as I know, it is a theory.


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## Bowfront (Jun 3, 2013)

Kanorin said:


> In "Malawi Cichlids in their natural habitat - 4th edition," Ad Konings writes that he has observed maybe 1 or 2 hybrids in Lake Malawi in the wild over the course of hundreds of dives, observing hundreds of thousands of fish. So obviously it can happen, but the rate at which it happens is super low and it's not even known if that first generation of hybrids is successful.


What a bunch of BS. Its **** statements like this that make me hate the hobby.

Many hybrids don't even look hybrid as they often take on he appearance of only the mother or only the father. Some have such subtly differences you wouldn't be able to tell without full hands on research they were hybrids. I speak from my own experience with an Acie male who mated with a female peacock in my tank. Half looked like the mother, half looked like the father. Very subtly differences distinguishable to only me. Many times here on this forum we can't tell the difference between a hybrid fish and one with bad genes even
though we may be able to stare at several pictures for minutes. We simply have no clue, even the most experienced among us.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Bowfront said:


> Kanorin said:
> 
> 
> > In "Malawi Cichlids in their natural habitat - 4th edition," Ad Konings writes that he has observed maybe 1 or 2 hybrids in Lake Malawi in the wild over the course of hundreds of dives, observing hundreds of thousands of fish. So obviously it can happen, but the rate at which it happens is super low and it's not even known if that first generation of hybrids is successful.
> ...


Care to elaborate?



Bowfront said:


> Many hybrids don't even look hybrid as they often take on he appearance of only the mother or only the father. Some have such subtly differences you wouldn't be able to tell without full hands on research they were hybrids. I speak from my own experience with an Acie male who mated with a female peacock in my tank. Half looked like the mother, half looked like the father. Very subtly differences distinguishable to only me. Many times here on this forum we can't tell the difference between a hybrid fish and one with bad genes even
> though we may be able to stare at several pictures for minutes. We simply have no clue, even the most experienced among us.


I assume that the hybrids Mr. Konings was referring to were easily identified as such. Also, I'm pretty sure he knows that hybrids can resemble either species.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

Bowfront said:


> What a bunch of BS. Its #%$& statements like this that make me hate the hobby.


Wow. Overreaction? I thought it was relevant to bring this up considering Ad Konings not only observes, takes notes, and takes photographs but also takes specimens for genetic analyses. I think your point that observation of hybrids in the wild _could_ be underestimates is valid. I also think that what happens in your fish tank is not a good representation of what would happen in nature.


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## Mschn99 (Dec 24, 2012)

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrar ... speciation

Naturally most fish will not hybridize. Obviously there has been some evolution and cross breeding to get to where they are, but it is also fact that most abnormalities do not survive. Look at albino fish for example. Extremely rare to find one alive in the lake, but common in the hobby. Why dont you find wild OB peacocks if cross breeding is common? While they do not habitate the exact same areas, im sure a peacock and a wild OB mbuna female has crossed paths at some point. The article above shows how in lake victoria they have found that females have actually adapted not to see some color spectrum's. Unfortunately with our impact on the lake making the waters much cloudier than it was naturally, we are diminishing this natural evolutionary trait.


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## richraceri (Mar 3, 2013)

Everybody is probably right. Since we know their prolific breeders and will cross breed, then statistically the conditions have to exist in the wild (at least occasionally) for cross-breeding. In most successful species females know how to pick the biggest most successful male thus insuring their young have the strongest possible gene pool. We've all seen it in cichlids, the alpha male gets the goodies most often. Of course we have also seen a nearby male sneak in on the action uninvited, but hes usually a pretty dominant male himself to take that kind of risk. Hybrid young can be identical in appearance so who can say for sure. But if every fish is a racial snob preferring the perfect looking / smelling mate the hybrids probably face a statistically daunting time of making a lasting impression on the gene pool. As the traits get more an more perfectly defined and near perfect specimens are plentiful the hybrids have less and less chance of passing themselves off as purebreds. So the anti-hybrid filter probably gets tougher still. It's probably logical to assume that fish with this less then perfect colors / smell are also less liked, less tolerated in preferred food areas, shelters etc. In total that equals a huge anti-hybrid social structure operating in the wild. That said we could assume there are always a few hybrids in the wild, a constant background force if you will trying to make inroads into the gene pool. But balancing this is a much much stronger force, in the form of anti-hybrid filters that prevents hybrids from being successful. So will a wild electric yellow 200 years from now be a more perfect specimen (anti hybrid forces get stronger) or will some tiny off-trait sneak in there and make the black highlights end half way down the fin? Probably depends on local conditions. For example a less bright electric yellow getting caught less often by collectors, might make smart females choose darker yellow mates often enough to change the gene pool. I did OK in stats, poorly in biology, so this is a big old guess.


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## lilscoots (Mar 13, 2012)

richraceri said:


> I did OK in stats, poorly in biology, so this is a big old guess.


You're actually pretty close. There are very strong instincts in the females which drive them to choose the most perfect example of their species they can find. The same instinct in males is not as strong. In species where males are either brilliantly colored or have some ornate appendage that costs a lot to produce/have (in terms of actual energetics or making them highly susceptible to predation), time and time again, research has shown that it is female choice which drives these to extremes. So yes, hybridization occurs but only when a female cannot find a suitable mate, which in the wild is almost never, but in the aquarium is all the time, unless steps are taken by the fishkeeper.


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## rennsport2011 (Oct 21, 2013)

Bowfront said:


> What a bunch of BS. Its #%$& statements like this that make me hate the hobby.
> 
> Many hybrids don't even look hybrid as they often take on he appearance of only the mother or only the father. Some have such subtly differences you wouldn't be able to tell without full hands on research they were hybrids. I speak from my own experience with an Acie male who mated with a female peacock in my tank. Half looked like the mother, half looked like the father. Very subtly differences distinguishable to only me. Many times here on this forum we can't tell the difference between a hybrid fish and one with bad genes even
> though we may be able to stare at several pictures for minutes. We simply have no clue, even the most experienced among us.


Some do have a clue. Most of these species have had DNA testing done on them, and they would and do reveal which species have hybridization. The reality is, very, very few do. Hybridization does happen in the wild, but most instances seem to be as a result of human intervention, and in Malawi so far there are no known species created through hybridization. Lake Tanganyika it appears there is at least one so far.


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## malawisteven (Oct 7, 2013)

Well how long have humans been studying the lakes compared to the millions of years the lakes have been around how do we know what species are formed from hybrids. So since we have been studying the fish we have discovered one species formed from hybrids and you are saying thats the only one to ever exist... i think not


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## rennsport2011 (Oct 21, 2013)

malawisteven said:


> Well how long have humans been studying the lakes compared to the millions of years the lakes have been around how do we know what species are formed from hybrids. So since we have been studying the fish we have discovered one species formed from hybrids and you are saying thats the only one to ever exist... i think not


1. I did not say that was the only one to ever exist, but it is the only known one in Tanganyika to date. 
2. What has happened over millions of years isn't relevant to current species. If extinct species were formed from hybrids (possible) how do we propose to do DNA testing on them? We just don't know. What we do know, is that almost all current species tested, show no evidence of hybridization to create a new species. For currently known and tested fishes, it appears to be an incredibly rare event. 
3. The highest probability of finding speciation in cichlids through hybridization at this current time is probably in Lake Victoria.

Where you have stability and physical barriers for similar fishes to meet, hybridization is rare. Even where these chance occurrences happen, most often the hybrid genetics get absorbed into one species or the other over time, but don't create a new species. Where you get hybridization, is where there is a significant event, eliminating previous physical barriers, or changing them. For example, if the Lakes levels dropped by 30m, you would likely see a mixing of fish that wouldn't have been mixed before... altogether possible that you would see hybridization. Some of this might result in hybridization, though most probably you would just end up with mixes of similar species that had began to evolve different colour strains, thus not true hybridization from a scientific viewpoint. The changes are true with Lake Victoria, where a combination of heavy predation by introduced Lates, and increased water turbidity from deforestation and farming has drastically changed the lake in a short period of time. There is reportedly the possibility of extinction of many species, though I'm not certain the actual status.

The bottom line in this argument is that any notion that the current species of Lake Malawi are due to hybridization appears to be incorrect, and supported by the extensive DNA testing that has occurred.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

rennsport2011 said:


> most often the hybrid genetics get absorbed into one species or the other over time,


Or it gets selected against, entirely. Unless the numbers are there, or the hybrid has some kind of advantage over either species, the cross is just another genetic dead end like most fishes. Fish have a breeding strategy to produce a lot of offspring....so that only a few get to become breeding adults and carry on the species. Unless the hybirdization is frequent enough, other wise it's statistically insignificant. Absorbed back into one species or another at best......more likely a rare genetic dead end.

When hybirdization is significant, then what was considered 2 species becomes one. Less variety, not more :lol: Quite the opposite of what we generally see in the great lakes of Africa!


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## chopsteeks (Jul 23, 2013)

> When hybirdization is significant, then what was considered 2 species becomes one. Less variety, not more :lol: Quite the opposite of what we generally see in the great lakes of Africa!/quote]
> 
> This is the complete opposite of what the argument of folks against hybridization. Hybridizaion creates a new species of fish, not less.
> 
> ...


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## lilscoots (Mar 13, 2012)

chopsteeks said:


> I am just looking at Milomo/VC-10 and Mbenji Malawi thick lips. Are they really 2 different fish or one is a hybrid ?
> 
> Taiwan Reef Cichlid vs Tangerine Tiger Likoma ?


Taiwan Reef aka Protomelas sp. "steveni imperial" is as yet an undescribed species - meaning scientists haven't classified it officially
Tangerine Tiger aka Protomelas taeniolatus is the same speceis as "red empress" and several others meaning scientists believe these are close enough genetically to be described as the same species, maybe given time they will become genetically different enough to be considered seperate species.

Here's where the term "hybrid" gets sketchy....if you were to breed a tangerine tiger and a red empress, most people in the hobby would consider this a hybrid (rightfully so) even though technically, they're the same species. A lot of this comes down to trying to preserve a fish (type) in captivity (our fishrooms as well as the in the hobby) as it appears in Lake Malawi and preventing the mixing of separate bloodlines through careless fishkeeping. 
This doesn't have anything to do with the original question....

Hybrids in the wild are quite rare and are usually strongly selected against, genetic testing has shown this repeatedly.


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## rennsport2011 (Oct 21, 2013)

lilscoots said:


> Taiwan Reef aka Protomelas sp. "steveni imperial" is as yet an undescribed species - meaning scientists haven't classified it officially
> .


Protomelas sp. "Taiwan Reef" are not the same as Protomelas sp. "Steveni Imperial"


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## Dwarfmbuna (Sep 18, 2013)

The reason why hybrids are rare in the wild is because a chance encounter occurs between two unrelated fish as just that - a chance encounter. The female will have offspring from it and that's it. in order to establish a hybrid, the same chance encounter would have to occur by the tens and hundreds and continue to repeat itself. What are the chances of that? The offspring of a chance encounter in the wild will simply be reabsorbed back into one of the two groups. If any of the offspring have a chance encounter with another group of fish and further hybridize ... well, as you can see, the product of the hybridization will not last very long at all.

It's a bit naïve to compare hybridization in a lake to hybridization in an aquarium. In a lake, the product of the hybridization will be lost with that same generation. As I stated before, in order to establish any particular hybrid from any two variants - the process will have to repeat itself. What are the chances of that? The offspring of a chance encounter in the wild will simply be reabsorbed back into one of the two parent groups.


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