# Aulonocara spec. "FIREFISH"



## kbuntu

I was wondering if thats the scientific name for Aulonocara spec. "FIREFISH". 
I've searched in the profiles but couldn't find it.


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## chapman76

It's a man made hybrid. Also known as Sunburst, Dragonblood, etc. Pretty fish.

BTW: can't see the picture.


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## Denny

They are very mild and pretty. I have four in an 85g community tank. They keep to themselves in the tank most of the time.


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## Number6

*kbuntu*
This breed will NEVER have a Latin name. It should not ever be referred to with a fake latin name as you have done in the title either. It is very misleading to the point of mis-information.

In other words, this fish isn't even an Aulonacara...

Man made breeds (especially of hybrid origin) should have common names. Dragonfire Peacock is both a good name and a strong name... this breed is a great addition to many Malawi setups. Hope that helps


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## Chasmatazz

I too am curious as to the origin of this fish, having just acquired one, and having been directed here through a search. It's disheartening to be told that the question itself is wrong, without being given a proper answer. Hybrids ARE referred to by scientific names. If a specimen is a cross between two different species, then BOTH scientific names are used.

For instance a mule is a hybrid between a horse, _Equus caballus_, and a donkey, _Equus asinus_. So when talking about a mule, we write its scientific name as: _Equus caballus x Equus asinus_, or simply _Equus caballus x asinus_, (since the genus is the same for both).


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## rennsport2011

Chasmatazz said:


> I too am curious as to the origin of this fish, having just acquired one, and having been directed here through a search. It's disheartening to be told that the question itself is wrong, without being given a proper answer. Hybrids ARE referred to by scientific names. If a specimen is a cross between two different species, then BOTH scientific names are used.
> 
> For instance a mule is a hybrid between a horse, _Equus caballus_, and a donkey, _Equus asinus_. So when talking about a mule, we write its scientific name as: _Equus caballus x Equus asinus_, or simply _Equus caballus x asinus_, (since the genus is the same for both).


Well, by the time you have a dozen different crosses, the meaning gets lost. Certainly calling it Aulonocara sp... is incorrect, given there are multiple Genera involved in the creation of this fish.


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## Chasmatazz

If I may ask your indulgence in a brief scientific lesson:

The system of scientific nomenclature is a powerful universal method through which scientists, regardless of their language, are able to identify ANY living organism, whether it's a naturally occurring hybrid, a man-made hybrid, domesticated animal, etc. For instance: _Canis lupus familiaris_ is the domestic dog, (now considered a subspecies of _Canis lupus_, the wolf). To say that a particular living organism, (which is not an undiscovered species or yet-to-be-named species), does not have a name that scientists can refer to it by, is to suggest that common names are more powerful than scientific names, which is false.


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## Chasmatazz

I highly doubt the fish pictured is the result of a dozen different hybrid crosses, but even if so, such a thing is easily documented. There are single cross hybrids, double cross hybrids, triple cross hybrids, etc. Modern corn, or maize, is actually a double cross hybrid, (the result of crossing two single cross hybrids - 5,000+ years old, and still not a dozen hybrid crosses), but corn is an interesting case: It is what's known as a hybrid species, (how's that for an oxymoron?) and has its own scientific name: _Zea mays_. With corn, it happened artificially but, in fact, a naturally occurring species, with its own scientific name, can have a hybridization event in its history. (Look up "hybrid speciation").


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## noki

Chasmatazz said:


> I highly doubt the fish pictured is the result of a dozen different hybrid crosses, but even if so, such a thing is easily documented. There are single cross hybrids, double cross hybrids, triple cross hybrids, etc. Modern corn, or maize, is actually a double cross hybrid, (the result of crossing two single cross hybrids - 5,000+ years old, and still not a dozen hybrid crosses), but corn is an interesting case: It is what's known as a hybrid species, (how's that for an oxymoron?) and has its own scientific name: _Zea mays_. With corn, it happened artificially but, in fact, a naturally occurring species, with its own scientific name, can have a hybridization event in its history. (Look up "hybrid speciation").


No, far as we know, it has not been documented. Someone might have their own recipe of a hybrid mix, but then they usually keep it secret. It is believed to be a cross between different Genus. I think they are a mix of Hap, Mbuna, and Aulonocara. They seem to need to be bred selectively or you end up with dull fish.

Since it is unknown, you could call it a Haplochromine hybrid. All Mbuna, Aulonocara, and "Haps" are Haplochromines.


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## Chasmatazz

I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's been documented by the breeder. I guess I can respect when a breeder doesn't want their "secret" to get out. ("Intellectual property" is actually a controversial topic; corporations would have us believe it's valid). But if that's the case, they should say so. They should simply say, "I don't want to tell you." They shouldn't make up a sciency-sounding explanation and try to pass it off as real science.


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## Chasmatazz

rennsport2011 said:


> by the time you have a dozen different crosses, the meaning gets lost.


I respect the question raised here, and I believe I know the answer. I've been looking for confirmation, but it's been hard to find. However, here are a few examples of how I believe it's done when there are three or more species in an organism's history:

_[Genus species x Genus species] x Genus species

[Genus species x Genus species] x [Genus species x Genus species]

[[Genus species x Genus species] x Genus species] x Genus species_

etc....

The placement of the brackets, (or parentheses - I'm not sure if brackets or parentheses are used, which is the main thing I was trying to confirm), tells us the order in which the crossings were made.


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## philipgonzales3

I don't care what it's called, it looks awesome .


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## rennsport2011

Chasmatazz said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's been documented by the breeder. I guess I can respect when a breeder doesn't want their "secret" to get out. ("Intellectual property" is actually a controversial topic; corporations would have us believe it's valid). But if that's the case, they should say so. They should simply say, "I don't want to tell you." They shouldn't make up a sciency-sounding explanation and try to pass it off as real science.


You can go out on a limb, but the main problem is, that the origins of the firefish, isn't the same as the origins of the hybrids used to make it. So Person A who made the hybrid, doesn't really know the ingredients used by Person B to come up with his base, that was also a hybrid... Nobody is talking and it is all speculation. So...... What has been done, isn't really science, it is like a kid throwing a bunch of different paints together, and coming up with brown and not really knowing how. A dozen, that is exaggeration, but there has to be at least 5-6 in this.

It is a Firefish "Peacock", and ornamental aquarium fish, that is pretty.


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## philipgonzales3

Couldn't someone whip up a batch of paint, I meant firefish, from scratch? Like the Germans or who ever line bred them to begin with?


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## DJRansome

When breeding a hybrid it takes many generations to get the look you want and then many more generations to get them to "breed true" meaning that all fry from a set of parents will look like a "firefish" and no throwbacks or oddballs.

And people probably do try to replicate whatever the "firefish" breeder did, thus we have strawberry and tangerine and dragon blood, etc. etc. etc.

For whatever reason with African cichlids (all I can speak to) the more commonly published scientists/textbooks/websites seek to classify the fish found in the lakes and not man-made fish. Because of the unique way Africans evolved, there may be more of a focus and value placed on pure species than hybrids. Or maybe they want to finish the fish from the lake first before they tackle hybrids.


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## loverland

I will stay out of the "what do we call it" debate. But, I found this on the interwebs a while back. I don't claim that this is by any means accurate. It's just one person's best guess at some of these formulas. Despite not being a fan of hybrids, I find this somewhat interesting.


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## Marconi

Number6 said:


> *kbuntu*
> This breed will NEVER have a Latin name. It should not ever be referred to with a fake latin name as you have done in the title either. It is very misleading to the point of mis-information.
> 
> In other words, this fish isn't even an Aulonacara...
> 
> Man made breeds (especially of hybrid origin) should have common names. Dragonfire Peacock is both a good name and a strong name... this breed is a great addition to many Malawi setups. Hope that helps


It comes from Aulonocara lineage...do you debate that?


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## lilscoots

I don't think anyone's denying that it has Aulonocara in it, some of us are saying you shouldn't call it Aulonocara since its actual lineage is unknown and likely contains other genera. Hap. firefish (or whatever trade name) would be a more accurate name since Hap. covers all the genera that are likely in the fish's lineage.


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## Marconi

lilscoots said:


> I don't think anyone's denying that it has Aulonocara in it, some of us are saying you shouldn't call it Aulonocara since its actual lineage is unknown and likely contains other genera. Hap. firefish (or whatever trade name) would be a more accurate name since Hap. covers all the genera that are likely in the fish's lineage.


Good point...but I'd like to know if anyone has ever bred 2 different Hap species with eachother eg: Aulonocara x Protomelas or Copadichromis x Sciaenochromis....I personally don't think this has happend...I'm all ears for someone to clarify this though


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## BigBlueFish3

I have owned about three of these "Dragon's Blood" Peacocks, and I have owned two beautiful Ruby Crystal Peacocks. Perhaps they are not naturally in the wild, oh well. A lot of things in our world have been "messed with". I say, if you find one, or own one, simply enjoy it for its remarkable beauty and personality. I have been a "Peacock Admirer for about 8 years, I will always love them. :fish:


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## rennsport2011

Marconi said:


> Good point...but I'd like to know if anyone has ever bred 2 different Hap species with eachother eg: Aulonocara x Protomelas or Copadichromis x Sciaenochromis....I personally don't think this has happend...I'm all ears for someone to clarify this though


It can and does happen fairly regularly.


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## Marconi

rennsport2011 said:


> Marconi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good point...but I'd like to know if anyone has ever bred 2 different Hap species with eachother eg: Aulonocara x Protomelas or Copadichromis x Sciaenochromis....I personally don't think this has happend...I'm all ears for someone to clarify this though
> 
> 
> 
> It can and does happen fairly regularly.
Click to expand...

Do you have an example of this or picture of a cross like these?


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## Marconi

Marconi said:


> rennsport2011 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marconi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good point...but I'd like to know if anyone has ever bred 2 different Hap species with eachother eg: Aulonocara x Protomelas or Copadichromis x Sciaenochromis....I personally don't think this has happend...I'm all ears for someone to clarify this though
> 
> 
> 
> It can and does happen fairly regularly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you have an example of this or picture of a cross like these?
Click to expand...

I've been selling and keeping africans for over 20 years and have never come across a Hap that I had no idea what it was...plenty of mbuna but nothing else. I like to see some examples of these hap crosses.


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## Chester B

Look in the unidentified folder, there are a ton of "hap" crosses. The most common one seems to be Sc.fryeri x any type of Aulonocara.


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## rennsport2011

As per above... look at chrysonotus, sulfur hap... those are common hybrids from your pet smarts etc..

OB ahli/fryeri, OB compressiceps

There is a mix venestus x livingstoni in the unidentified right now....

Dimidichromis comps hybridize with all kinds of things. Google search D. comp hybrid comes up with a venestus mix, a fryeri mix...

ahli hybrid comes up with a few on google....


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## Marconi

Venestus x Livingstoni are from the same genus and so is the example of D. Hybrid...2 kinds of Dimidichromis. I'd like to see a hydrid between genus's. I'm not convinced that OB ahli/fryeri are from mixing it with another genus. OB variants can occur naturally...I had this once with an Aulonocara jacobfriebergi "Otter Point" and Pseudo. Perspicax (sorry for the mbuna plug in a hap debate lol). I only had 1 OB "Otter Point" after raising tonnes and tonnes of fry from my colony...so I feel it occurs naturally and unless exploited, many OB strains just never make it to market.


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## rennsport2011

Marconi said:


> Venestus x Livingstoni are from the same genus and so is the example of D. Hybrid...2 kinds of Dimidichromis. I'd like to see a hydrid between genus's. I'm not convinced that OB ahli/fryeri are from mixing it with another genus. OB variants can occur naturally...I had this once with an Aulonocara jacobfriebergi "Otter Point" and Pseudo. Perspicax (sorry for the mbuna plug in a hap debate lol). I only had 1 OB "Otter Point" after raising tonnes and tonnes of fry from my colony...so I feel it occurs naturally and unless exploited, many OB strains just never make it to market.


A Dimidiochromis compressiceps x Scieanochromis fryeri hybrid is within the same Genus? Hmmm... I'm not sure about that, how are Dimidiochromis and Scieanochromis the same? How are Nimbochromis and Dimidiochromis the same?

There are NO (ZERO) Malawian Haplochromines, or Peacocks that have OB genetics naturally... NONE.

Your OB Otter Point MUST have been a hybrid... probably had Eureka in them, which appears to have been hybridized in the introduction of the Albino genes.


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## noki

Marconi said:


> lilscoots said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think anyone's denying that it has Aulonocara in it, some of us are saying you shouldn't call it Aulonocara since its actual lineage is unknown and likely contains other genera. Hap. firefish (or whatever trade name) would be a more accurate name since Hap. covers all the genera that are likely in the fish's lineage.
> 
> 
> 
> Good point...but I'd like to know if anyone has ever bred 2 different Hap species with eachother eg: Aulonocara x Protomelas or Copadichromis x Sciaenochromis....I personally don't think this has happend...I'm all ears for someone to clarify this though
Click to expand...

Happens all of the time, really not sure what endemic Malawi cichlids *won't* cross with each other, if you put them in a tank with each other. The Tilapia won't cross with the Haplochromines of course.


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## Marconi

rennsport2011 said:


> Marconi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Venestus x Livingstoni are from the same genus and so is the example of D. Hybrid...2 kinds of Dimidichromis. I'd like to see a hydrid between genus's. I'm not convinced that OB ahli/fryeri are from mixing it with another genus. OB variants can occur naturally...I had this once with an Aulonocara jacobfriebergi "Otter Point" and Pseudo. Perspicax (sorry for the mbuna plug in a hap debate lol). I only had 1 OB "Otter Point" after raising tonnes and tonnes of fry from my colony...so I feel it occurs naturally and unless exploited, many OB strains just never make it to market.
> 
> 
> 
> A Dimidiochromis compressiceps x Scieanochromis fryeri hybrid is within the same Genus? Hmmm... I'm not sure about that, how are Dimidiochromis and Scieanochromis the same? How are Nimbochromis and Dimidiochromis the same?
> 
> There are NO (ZERO) Malawian Haplochromines, or Peacocks that have OB genetics naturally... NONE.
> 
> Your OB Otter Point MUST have been a hybrid... probably had Eureka in them, which appears to have been hybridized in the introduction of the Albino genes.
Click to expand...

Can you find me a picture that gives reference to a Dimidiochromis compressiceps x Scieanochromis fryeri hybrid...I can't find one, plus they hybrids all coming from Asia have no reference to thier origins...all speculation. In that thread you told me to google, the hybrid they concluded was a cross between Dimidiochromis strigatus and Dimidiochromis compressiceps, not Nimbochromis.

My main Otter Point male was wild caught and all the females I had were F1 farm raised. The juvenile males from the f1 batch once matured looked Identical to my wild caught male...no hybrids in my colony. I didn't think anything of the single OB fry...personally. If I knew that an OB morph of peacock had never been recorded or documented naturally, I would've raised this fish on its own and donated it to science.


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## rennsport2011

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=286010 comp x venestus





 fryeri x. comp

Where and when did you get "Wild Caught" Otter Points? They must have been expensive.


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## Mr Chromedome

Back in the 1980s a local hobbyist had a cross between _Dimidiochromis compressiceps_ and _Pseudotropheus livingstonei_. There was only one of each in the tank, and the female _Pseudotropheus_ released many fry that had _compressiceps_ shape, but not perfect. He actually sold them to the local shop as "Haplochromis kalamazooi", said it was a joke, but buyers were not being told about the origin of the fish.

There was a thread on the CRC forums some time ago, with dozens of hybrid crosses from Haplochromine Cichlids. It's been so long ago I'm not sure I could find it.

The fact that all the Cichlids in Lake Malawi have essentially the same breeding habits, as well as being genetically close, makes hybridization easy. Malawian males will breed with whatever females are available in aquaria. The dominant male in a territory (which often means the entire aquarium) is the only one that can spawn with any females. Egg laden females with no choice will breed with whoever is holding the territory.


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## rennsport2011

Mr Chromedome said:


> There was a thread on the CRC forums some time ago, with dozens of hybrid crosses from Haplochromine Cichlids. It's been so long ago I'm not sure I could find it.


http://cichlidresearch.com/hybrids.html The link to Mssr. Burnel's page is now dead though.. that is probably what you were thinking of.


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## rennsport2011

A whole website devoted to selling and making hybrids.

http://www.malawi-firefish.de/index2.php :x

http://www.cichlidae.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2118 Note, Burnel, widely respected Cichlid expert noting no OB forms for Aulonocara types.


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## rennsport2011

http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo15 ... 010438.jpg

Sciaenochromis fryeri x Cyrtocara moori

Some mix... marketed as chrysonotus

http://www.cichlids.com/uploads/tx_user ... c04665.jpg

Yellow Lab x Copadichromis borleyi

http://www.cichlids.com/uploads/tx_user ... 723c8f.jpg

Red Empress x venestus

viewtopic.php?p=1593701

Cyrtocara moori x Scieanochromis fryeri

http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo15 ... 010438.jpg

OB Peacock x Cyrtocara moori

http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo15 ... 010437.jpg

Red Shoulder Aulonocara variant x Scieanochromis fryeri

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/ ... 6pqsfu.jpg

That's enough for now.


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## Marconi

rennsport2011 said:


> http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo158/young_rico86/12202010438.jpg
> 
> Sciaenochromis fryeri x Cyrtocara moori
> 
> Some mix... marketed as chrysonotus
> 
> http://www.cichlids.com/uploads/tx_user ... c04665.jpg
> 
> Yellow Lab x Copadichromis borleyi
> 
> http://www.cichlids.com/uploads/tx_user ... 723c8f.jpg
> 
> Red Empress x venestus
> 
> viewtopic.php?p=1593701
> 
> Cyrtocara moori x Scieanochromis fryeri
> 
> http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo15 ... 010438.jpg
> 
> OB Peacock x Cyrtocara moori
> 
> http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo15 ... 010437.jpg
> 
> Red Shoulder Aulonocara variant x Scieanochromis fryeri
> 
> http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/ ... 6pqsfu.jpg
> 
> That's enough for now.


Thank you Sir...this definitely ends my debate :thumb: . I can't believe the Lab/Borelyi mix...unreal. I've never seen examples of hybrids like this before in Africans.


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## Marconi

rennsport2011 said:


> http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=286010 comp x venestus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fryeri x. comp
> 
> Where and when did you get "Wild Caught" Otter Points? They must have been expensive.


My male was $70 dollars and the rest of the f1's were like $8 each. My colony consisted of the one Wild male, 5 subdominant males (sold a bunch of the other males), and around 25 females....needless to say I was stripping fry like crazy 

Video of my Wild Male


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## Marconi

My wild male was from Big Als in North York (Toronto) and f1's from Spencer Jacks in Winnepeg. I questioned the purity of the lines until I sold off a bunch of my juvenile males. Once they became mature they were exactly like my wild male....I was happy to see this.


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## Fogelhund

Understand that first Otter Point lies within a National Park, where it is illegal to collect. Having said that, very limited collection has occurred at Otter Island, which isn't far from Otter Point, and not in the Park. When I say very limited, it is to suggest it has happened every two to three years at best. Some were collect in 2012, and all of those went to Denmark. Some were collected in 2013, and they went to a couple of places. It had been a few years before that they were collected. The next thing to understand is that these are cave dwellers, and are Extremely hard to collect.

Over the past decade, the cheapest Otter Islands have been $70 from the collector, before even being shipped from Africa. (Currently they are $90 before being shipped from Africa) You are looking at about $110 or so landed cost per fish. Then Old World puts a markup on them, and sells them to Big Al's, and then Big Al's puts a markup on them, and sells them to you. The Big Al's markup on wilds is typically in the 200% range. These are pretty much the most expensive Malawian cichlid you can buy. Doing the math, the cheapest you can come up with is $300 per fish before you would want to accept that they are actually wild.

As per above, OB genetics simply do no exist naturally (without a contaminant introduction ie. hybridization) in any Malawian Hap/peacock. Your fish does look great though, but something went wrong somewhere.... (Perhaps even a cross contamination during spawning...)


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## Marconi

I see where you are coming from...I did not import the fish. I do check the Old World availability quite often and when I purchased this fish (a couple years ago), I did see them on the Old World list at the same time...but what they were offering I believe was adult male Otter Points that I think came from one of their stocked ponds ...would that make sense??

The OB fry I had was about an inch in length and had four little spots on it. It grew much slower then my other fry and I did not think about separating it. It died because I think it was a runt and weak. Maybe the spots were related to it being stressed...don't know.


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