# Blood worms to promote breeding in cichilds?



## NewCichlidTank (Mar 4, 2009)

My father who used to deal cichlids wholesale says that if you feed cichilds the typical cichlid flake in the morning and then blood worms or another high protein substance at night, the cichlids will be more likely to breed. I have heard conflicting thoughts about this, some say that this could cause bloat and others say it will improve breeding. Please help me figure out if I am hurting or helping my little guys!


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

the term 'cichlid', is too brood, to recommend or rule out a specific food. your father's conditioning methods could work well with many south/central american types. but there are some cichlid, in particular, from the african rift lake 'malawi', where protein rich diets can cause risk. HTH.


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

lloyd said:


> ...protein rich diets can cause risk. HTH.


 sorry, i meant blood rich proteins. every fish benefits from high protein diets, but not every fish can deal with slow digestive types, like red meats.


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## NewCichlidTank (Mar 4, 2009)

I switch off between a frozen omnivorous food that contains spirulina and other good nutrients. Could this also promote breeding but reduce the digestive period and thus the bloat?


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

NewCichlidTank said:


> I switch off between a frozen omnivorous food that contains spirulina and other good nutrients. Could this also promote breeding but reduce the digestive period and thus the bloat?


 not so much 'reduce the digestive period' as 'overload' it. i hypothesize, that bloat risk is increased, as protein breakdown occurs further into the digestive tract of omnivores. attempts to supplement the intake of these fish, to achieve breeding conditioning, is near impossible. because omnivores have such voracious appetites, they are too easily overfed. the chance that they will become ill first, is too great, to warrant the risk of introducing predator type feeds.
i would save feed like blood worms for true predators. slightly increasing water temperature, to enhance appetites simultaneously with increasing metabolism, is a more effective experiment, IMO.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

What species are we talking about?

I would never feed bloodworms to any cichlid from Lake Malawi.

lloyd is right...This is a mute point without knowing the species concerned!


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

The only Malawis I have are 3 P. flavus and I have fed them live blood worms and as much daphnia as they can eat daily for 4 to 6 weeks. 
Since some Malawis are meat eaters the above statement is too broad. 
As far as frozen bloodworms go, I'm not terribly impressed with them as a food source. A lot of them get messed up in the processing and the bodies get busted up losing most of the food value. Live larvae are a different case entirely. Same applies to daphnia and mosquito larvae.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

This is a direct quote from Ad Konings in his book "Back to Nature Guide to *Malawi Cichlids*"...



> Many kinds of deep frozen fish foods are available in pet shops. Not all of them are recommended for cichlids (or any other kind of fishes). Red mosquito larvae, one of the most popular frozen foods, are very bad and should not be fed to fishes. These larvae are found in the mud of stagnant pools and feed from the mud, including when this contains chemicals which are toxic to some fishes, especially to Malawi and Tanganyika cichilds. Red mosquito larvae often occur in very acid water and since the larvae consist mostly of water such acid water is ingested by the fish. Malawi cichlids live in alkaline water and the feeding of red mosquito larvae may easily lead to the so-called Malawi Bloat. The same problem exists when you feed your Malawians glass worms for acid water. Moreover red mosquito larvae induce allergic reactions in about 30% of persons coming into contact with them!


This would also pertain to fresh or live blood worms. :thumb:


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

Interesting info about the acidity, if it is in fact true. 
It seems a stretch to me that an organism living in water would necessarily mirror the pH of the water it is in. Also not sure about how the alergic reactions people have relate to fish.
I will have to check the pH of the water on my pool cover when the ice melts. Even though it is rain water and melted snow, it was not acidic the last time I checked it about 10 years ago.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

BillD, I really don't think you're going to get any more reliable information on keeping cichlids than Ad Konings can give you. :roll:

And I know of several people who are highly allergic to bloodworms, handling them causes them to break out in hives immediately, and for some, their eyes will even swell up. My husband is one of these people. I can touch them, but I have to wash my hands thoroughly afterwards - if I touch my face, I will have itching and welts, as well.

I don't really understand how checking the acidity of your pool water is beneficial, unless you're harvesting them and selling them to the public.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

While I trust Ad Konig"s knowledge of Africans, I suspect the acid water thing. I feed huge quantities of daphnia and whatever else is in the water. If what Ad says is true, I would have to assume I should be at least curious as to what the pH of the water on my pool cover is as it is all rain water, which should be soft and acidy. Still, I find it hard to believe that internal pH would flucuate with differing water pHs. I am curious now, and sice daphnia are about 89% water I should be able to test for this, although I have no reason to expect it matters. I have been doing this for 13 years with only positive results. While I don't sell the daphnia, I may invite some club members over to harvest some since 90% of the millions that grow on the pool cover go down the drain.
I know a few people who react badly to blood worms, but again, I don't see how that relates to fish.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

BillD said:


> I know a few people who react badly to bloodworms, but again, I don't see how that relates to the fish.


Since I doubt there are many people eating the bloodworms themselves, I would assume this was discovered while feeding bloodworms to fish. A trip to the ER isn't something most people want to risk experiencing. 

If I'm not mistaken, there are _many_ different species of mosquitos, so it's highly unlikely that those produced on top of your pool are the same type that are sold commercially.

In general, it's best NOT to advise hobbyist to feed them to Malawi cichlids. A quick search in this particular folder regarding bloodworms and bloat is proof of that. :thumb:


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

Blood worms are not mosquito larvae, but rather a midge larva. While the specific species may be different from those from the orient, it is the same animal. I don't advise their feeding for mbuna, (even though I do) but mbuna are only part of the cichlid population of Malawi. As I mentioned earlier, I am not a fan of frozen bloodworms; I think they are over rated.
It is interesting to note that it is usually recommended to feed a vegetable diet to mbuna, but most of the recommended foods have fish meal in them. The story is that they can't handle high concentrations of protein, so we feed tham spirulina, which is 60% protein. Granted, so called spirulina foods are not pure, or have small amounts of it in a mix, as the cost would be prohibitive.
Getting back to what I serve up from my pool cover, the main animal is daphnia and the cyclops, bloodworms, glassworms, and assorted other aquatic insect larvae make up a small percentage of the mix. I serve up whatever comes down the pipe, in massive quantities, to all my fish including my 3 P. flavus. They have been fed this for the last 2 springs with no problems. That is not to say that there couldn't or wouldn't be, but so far they are thriving, and they get nothing else for about 4 to 6 weeks each spring.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Now, you're splitting hairs, BillD! :wink:

Bloodworms ARE midge larvae, but are commonly referred to as "red mosquito larvae", since the midge is very mosquito like in appearance - the main difference being that a midge doesn't bite - but you'd be hard pressed to identify one from the other otherwise.

In the context we are using here, on this forum, regarding bloodworms, it really doesn't make any difference. They should NOT be fed to Malawi cichlids.

Far too many hobbyist have had problems in doing so for me to believe otherwise!

Perhaps you haven't experienced problems because of your seasonal use of them, rather than feeding them over an extended period of time, continuously. Who knows? But from moderating this forum for a few years and witnessing the problems that arise from their usage, I tend to go with Ad's thoughts on this.

I have often wondered if the processing has anything to do with the problems we relate to bloodworms, as well as the possibility of them being ingested in a frozen state, but again, there is nothing to support this theory.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

I'll agree they shouldn't be fed to mbuna, but I routinely fed them to my haps, and tangs without issue when I kept them.


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