# Fishless cycle advice please



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

Probably just my impatience but I am a little confused with my cycle. Dosed new tank to 4ppm ammonia 8 days ago. After few days ammonia dropped to 2ppm. Day 6 of cycle started to see 0.25ppm nitrite. Day 7 ammonia 1ppm no nitrites nitrates 5ppm. Day 8 still no nitrites, ammonia 1ppm nitrates 5ppm. Any suggestions to kick start some nitrites? Ph has been 8.2 throughout. 
Thanks.


----------



## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

starplayer said:


> Probably just my impatience but I am a little confused with my cycle. Dosed new tank to 4ppm ammonia 8 days ago. After few days ammonia dropped to 2ppm. Day 6 of cycle started to see 0.25ppm nitrite. Day 7 ammonia 1ppm no nitrites nitrates 5ppm. Day 8 still no nitrites, ammonia 1ppm nitrates 5ppm. Any suggestions to kick start some nitrites? Ph has been 8.2 throughout.
> Thanks.


I wouldn't dose more than 2 ppm ammonia when cycling. There's little to be gained. Have you dosed again since the initial 4 ppm? You need to dose every few days.

I'd recommend this article on fishless cycling:

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/f ... _cycle.php


----------



## adam0444 (Apr 16, 2011)

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/f ... _cycle.php

Agree Follow what this says^^ my fishless cycle took 7 days but Ihave 2 filters that I had been using on another tank. I washed them out though but still only took 7 days got me


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

I was going to add more ammonia but as it had not dropped to zero from initial dose and nitrites vanished after 24 hours I was bit confused. So I should add more ammonia to increase to 2-3ppm and do this every other day if it drops.


----------



## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

starplayer said:


> I was going to add more ammonia but as it had not dropped to zero from initial dose and nitrites vanished after 24 hours I was bit confused. So I should add more ammonia to increase to 2-3ppm and do this every other day if it drops.


Correct. You can dose every 2-3 days. Let the ammonia reading be your guide. Unless you're seeding the tank, it's not unusual for it to take a few weeks to finish cycling a tank. You had a nitrite spike and then it dropped back to zero suggesting that denitrifying bacteria is getting established. Your nitrifying bacteria though hasn't reached a level yet to handle the massive ammonia dose you started with.

I wouldn't bother testing nitrates at this stage. You're not going to get a true reading on their level till the tank is finished cycling.

Right now the goal is to process the addition of 2-3 ppm of ammonia so that your ammonia and nitrite reading is 0 24 hours later.

It sounds like you're well on your way. Patience is key at this stage.

How big is the tank and what will you be stocking with?


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

Thanks for advice everyone and reassurance zimmy. 
Tank is 4x2x2. Getting ready for a tang community. Have some L.stappersi and J.ornatus on order with a couple more species to choose. Gonna post pics eventually. Still deciding on which light tubes to go with. Once I have them I'll get camera out.


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

Sorry to hoof this. Just need reassuring again. So I re dosed with ammonia on sunday to reading of probably 3ppm from 1ppm. It is still 3ppm and no nitrites today. PH/KH high still. Is this OK. Do I remain patient?


----------



## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

wait for your ammonia to read zero,patience is key,I,m on my 3 rd week of cycling two 75,s

first tank I increased the temperature(85),and added a maxi-jet to intruduce oxygen,this tank is further along than the second tank that I kept at 78 without adding oxygen

Both are processing 3 mg/l ammonia in 24 hours,first tank happened at day 7,second on day 11

Resist the urge to test for anything else but ammonia,after 24 hours of being zero,add the original amount of ammonia

once you get to this point ,and after reading the fishless cycle article,you have any questions, ask,someone will answer,good luck


----------



## Z90a (Sep 25, 2011)

Do they make ammonia strip tests. Cause I have this thing you mix chemicals and water together. It's really annoying. I just started cycling my 20.


----------



## lochie407 (Sep 26, 2011)

Agree Follow what this says^^ my fishless cycle took 7 days but Ihave 2 filters that I had been using on another tank. I washed them out though but still only took 7 days got me[/quote]

i have been cycling my 55 gallon for 3 days now with a new filter, but i have a smaller set up already established (the fish from it are going into the big tank as well) if i take out my smaller pump and use it in conjunction with the new one, will that let me start adding fish in 5 or 6 days?


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

Well just a little update. 
Day 16 - since I redosed to around 3 last week there has been only slow progress. No further nitrites. Ammonia about 2ppm, probably, though may be 1-2ppm. Hard to guage the colours sometimes. 
Temp 30
ph 8.2
kh 20


----------



## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

You added ammonia 5 days ago,right,I would say it,ll be zero in the next day or two,when 0,add original dose,24 hours later test nitrites,20-30 % water change,add ammonia,24 hours later test,do 20-30 % water change,no addition of ammonia,basically this is what you,ll be doing until nitrites are zero,
test,W.C.,add ammonia
test,W.C.
test,W.C.,add ammonia
test,W.C.
repeat,hope that made sense,its been a long day


----------



## juststayinthecave (Dec 23, 2010)

It took my tank 6 weeks to cycle. I don't know if thats typical or not.


----------



## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

juststayinthecave said:


> It took my tank 6 weeks to cycle. I don't know if thats typical or not.


Not uncommon to take six weeks.

To the OP are you using a water conditioner? Do you know if your tap water has chloramines?


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

To answer Zimmy - dechlorinator used.

Update today Day 17

Ammonia 1-2ppm
Good news is I have nitrites. Just a small ammount 0.25ppm but they are there so something is moving on. Fingers crossed.
I have not tested Ph / KH today.

I would like to have seen the ammonia level drop a bit now I have nitrites, but maybe there are not enough of them at this stage to make much of an impact.


----------



## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Your ammonia should zero out quickly now if things are progressing nromally. Don't add more right now. Test again tomorrow. If ammonia is zero, then add more, but only bring it up to 1-2ppm, 3ppm is more than what's needed and not helpful. Once ammonia is zero 24 hours after dosing, only add more every 2-3 days.

After 16 days you shouldn't still be seeing ammonia like this, but it's a good sign that nitrite is rising.


----------



## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

starplayer said:


> To answer Zimmy - dechlorinator used.


If you're using Prime, it's possible to get a false positive reading for ammonia while you're cycling. This doesn't mean you shouldn't use it, just that it's good to know this fact.

If you do any water changes and have chloramine in your water, you can also get elevated ammonia readings. However, I wouldn't expect your readings to be as high as they are.

I used Prime and have chloramine in my water. When I cycled my first tank my ammonia didn't read 0 until I was five weeks into the cycle. It would stay stuck between 0.25 and 0.5 (despite my only dosing 1-2 ppm ammonia). I got to the point where once I knew it was dropping after dosing, I just tested nitrites. Once nitrites hit zero (which felt like it was going to take forever), I started testing ammonia again 24 hours after dosing. It seemed that once the tank was cycled, the ammonia would drop to zero.

I've read about other people having a similar experience.


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

Todays readings.

Ammonia still 1-2ppm
Nitrites increased possibly to 1ppm so bigger jump there.
Last time I had nitrites at 0.25ppm they vanished after 1 night so they are getting established I think.


----------



## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Give it more time and post back readings each day. Your readings aren't typical. Don't add more ammonia right now. Usually ammonia drops to 0 rather quickly once it starts to decline, but yours is hanging on for some reason.


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

Daily update number 753.......... only joking!
Feels like it though. Patience is definitely the key here.

Nitrites have increased again to 2ppm. Definitely darker than yesterday.
pH=8.4
Ammonia=1ppm

After reading numerous articles about fishless cycling I expected the initial nitrite spike to be quicker and to consume the ammonia quickly. This was my mistake and consequently I became a little unsure about its progression. My plan now is to continue monitoring Ammonia and Nitrites daily. When ammonia drops to 0ppm I will redose to 2ppm and continue checking the readings and dose ammonia accordingly when it drops to 0ppm. I dont plan water changes til excessive nitrates show. One question about that - My plan was to remove 50% water, add dechlorinator to the tank and refil from hosepipe. This will reduce temp of tank quite significantly I would have thought. Does this matter?


----------



## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

starplayer said:


> Daily update number 753.......... only joking!
> Feels like it though. Patience is definitely the key here.
> 
> Nitrites have increased again to 2ppm. Definitely darker than yesterday.
> ...


In your case, I'd suggest redosing to only 1ppm after ammonia drops to 0. You've been struggling with a nagging ammonia level and I"d be interested in seeing if a lower level will drop in a more typical timeframe, less than 24 hours. You could even dose less, it won't stall things. We can pick up the dosage after the test.

I'd do small daily water changes once nitrite starts to rise. Basing water changes on nitrates is for fully cycled tanks. High nitrites can inhibit cycling, and fuel the end nitrate levels.

About water changes, if your tap is going to significantly reduce the tank temp, then I'd do smaller changes. Yes, it can matter, but depends on how much. If it lowers a degree or two, no big deal IME. Most mix with warm water from the tap to get the correct temp. Are you not able to do that?


----------



## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

Once your ammonia goes to zero,you will need to add ammonia,24 hours later test nitrites, 25-30% water change,24 hours later test nitrites,PWC add ammonia,keep repeating this,you
dont need to test for nitrates until nitrites are zero after 24 hours from adding ammonia,and with all the frequent partial water changes,your nitrates should be low
to add,I just finished cycling a 75 gal. and nitrates were just under 10 ppm,I also raised the temperature to 84,which definately sped up the cycle


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

Prob - tap more conveniently situated outside and bypasses water softener. Will use combination of hose from outside and warm water from bucket.

Newforestrob - so I should do partial WC if nitrites excessively high for long period?


----------



## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

with the method I suggested,of partial water changes every 24 hours,my experiences result in moderate nitrite levels,and what Tim has suggested in only dosing to 1 ppm of ammonia,your nitrites shoul not get to be excessive,I basically followed the article on fishless cycling, provided in the library,I used to do it differently,but I followed the steps in the article with good results


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

Todays readings seem to be going the right way.
Ammonia = 1ppm
Nitrites = 5ppm

Gonna try to post pic of tank


----------



## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

What test kit are you using?


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

Todays readings

Nitrite = 5ppm
Ammonia = 1ppm


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

Soory Prov, had trouble with putting picture on.

API test kit.


----------



## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

starplayer said:


> Soory Prov, had trouble with putting picture on.
> 
> API test kit.


Ok, it's good that nitrite is rising, but ammonia shouldn't still be 1ppm. It really can't be, but I know the kits aren't that accurate. For the nitrite to rise, the conversion would have happened to the ammoniia lowering it's reading.


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

Got the hang of photos so here is todays tests









Thanks


----------



## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

rinse the vile under the tap and then make sure to rinse the vile in tank water before testing,I suspect ammonia should be zero if nitrites are at 5

I would test again for ammonia,to be sure

nice set-up by the way


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

Cheers Newforestrob.

Tested again but still got same ammonia reading. I will be busy over the weekend, but if ammonia persists I may do PWC next week, redose and see what happens.


----------



## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

I would do an ammonia test with your tap water to ensure the test kit isn't off. If you get a 0 reading on the tap water a PWC is a good idea.


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

Well more improvement today.
Ammonia = 0.25-0.50ppm
Nitrites = >5ppm

I bought a second ammonia test kit but both read the same.
Still it seems to be going the right way!!


----------



## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

starplayer said:


> Well more improvement today.
> Ammonia = 0.25-0.50ppm
> Nitrites = >5ppm


If nitrites are greater than 5ppm I would do a PWC to bring them to 2-3 ppm.


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

Ok, I am now at the stage where my ammonia is 0. Nitrites remain at 5ppm. I am now thinking of what next step I should make. 
1) redose ammonia to 1ppm today
2) water change 25% then redose to 1ppm
3) redose higher as nitrites high and if ammonia comes back down quickly do water change to bring nitrites down.

Thanks for all your patience.


----------



## Z90a (Sep 25, 2011)

You should do a PWC every other day. On the days you don't you should add your ammonia dose. So your schedule will be

Test add ammonia. 
PWC test
Test add ammonia. 
PWC test. 
So on

If I'm wrong some one plz correct me cause this is what I'm doing.


----------



## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

Yes that is right,since youve tested and your nitrites are on the high side,do a pwc ,no more than 30 %,and then add full dose of ammonia,24 hrs later test for nitrites only and then do a pwc,and so on,I try to do it at the same time,if you have to skip a day ,dont sweat it,the idea of testing every 24 hours gives you a good handle on where things are,just to clarify you are only adding ammonia every 48 hours with pwc every day


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

So after 24 hours my nitrites are above 5 I think. Out of curiosity I tested ammonia and that was 0ppm. So it has processed 2-3ppm in 24 hours. Seems to be going now. Just started water change. Just to clarify I should not add ammonia tonight even though it's 0ppm?


----------



## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

Dont add ammonia,you want to basically bring down nitrites right now,
same time tomorrow,test nitrites,pwc,add ammonia
at this point,only test nitrites,until you see it at zero ,24 hours after dosing,this will take longer than ammonia being converted ,my last cycle took 3 weeks for nitrites to be converted,and I added seeded media
I would increase temperature to around 84 deg. fahreneit. that sped up my cycle


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

Thanks a lot.


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

Just an update really. Early part of this week I was redosing ammonia to 1-2ppm Every other day and PWC every day of 25%. All the ammonia was being processed in 24 hours. On API test the nitrite colour was deep purple, obviously over 5ppm. Well by thursday I decided that I would skip the PWC and just redose to 1-2ppm every other day. Nitrites still above 5ppm probably but the purple colour I am getting on the test is no deeper than when I was doing PWC. I think I will continue as per latter part of week and redose every other day and skip PWC.
Thanks for input.


----------



## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

Just be prepared,when nitrites finally go to zero,and you haven.t done any pwc's,that your nitrates will probably be off the chart,I,ve recently read that Tim,the moderator who wrote the article doesnt do pwc's either during cycling,the only other thing I could suggest would be to not dose a high ammount of ammonia,somewhere closer to 1 ppm,good luck and thanks for the update


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

Just the weekly update. Filter continues to process ammonia in 12 hours. Redosing ammonia alternate days to around 2ppm. Nitrites still at least 5ppm. Gonna do a weekly 25% water change later today. I have been tempted to add some proprietry starter chemicals, however I think I'll just continue as I am.


----------



## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

:thumb:


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

Well at last. Major progress I think. All week things have been much as the last 3 weeks. Filter processing 2ppm ammonia in 24 hours. Redosing every 48 hrs. Nitrites have been more than 5ppm up to last night. Well decided to test this am. Nitrites plummeted to 0.25ppm and nitrates 80ppm. Hopefully coming to a conclusion now. Happy days. I can post full diary readings if it is of benefit to anyone. There were one or two strange spikes but after 6 weeks exactly it is nearly there.


----------



## Unclescanner (Sep 23, 2011)

Starplayer, sounds like you and I are in the same boat however you are able to see the finish lne =D> . I have had nitrites at 5ppm or higher for 2 weeks, my filters are converting 1 to 2 ppm ammo in 24 hours, i am doing bo aprtial water changes....so I guess I just gotta ride the tide and wait it out. Right


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

In the fourth week of the cycle I started doing pwc every other day, however it made no difference on nitrite readings so I just stopped and redosed ammonia every 48 hrs. I have been tempted to add commercial additives to speed the cycle. Happy I did not do that now. Patience is definitely the key. Although I was told that nitrite drop would be quick I was real suprised at how quick.


----------



## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

I think it;s safe to say that you are very close to being cycled,I would guess ,without doing anything,and testing later on today that nitrites would be testing 0,but this is not to say you are done
It's normal to have concerns and doubts about the process and progress of fishless cycling,good to hear you stuck through it,and I would say you are a better aquarist for doing it :thumb:


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

CHeers Rob.
I also get the feeling I am nearly there. 
I think the message to get across is that if you are starting from scratch without any seeding material then patience is the key. I have been tempted to seed and I think it may have speeded things up, however providing the ammonia source is pure the nitrogen cycle will run it's course. 
On reflection the variables may be the amount of filter material I have in the filter, the hardness of the water from the tap, my water is extremely hard. I have had a couple of strange spikes of nitrite and nitrate buy ultimately think it has been worth it.


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

Well I thought I would just complete the thread and say that in total it took 6 weeks exactly to cycle the tank. I added fish on the 7th week and have had varying degrees of success. The Celebes Rainbows and Colombian Tetras are fine. I bought 4 L Caudopunctatus. Sadly I have lost a male following a 25% waterchange. The 3 females are also struggling a bit. They are off their food and listless for some of the time. I have increased the temp to 28 to see if it helps. I do not have a hospital tank. All parameters are fine. Ph 8.2, Nitrates 10. No ammonia / nitrites. I have 6 L. Occelatus and 4 J. Ornatus coming on tuesday and I am praying they will be ok. As the rainbows and tetras are fine I am assuming, rightly or wrongly that these new additions will be. I think the water change has affected the cichlids badly. I now plan to change only 5% daily as opposed to 25% weekly.


----------



## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

starplayer said:


> Well I thought I would just complete the thread and say that in total it took 6 weeks exactly to cycle the tank. I added fish on the 7th week and have had varying degrees of success. The Celebes Rainbows and Colombian Tetras are fine. I bought 4 L Caudopunctatus. Sadly I have lost a male following a 25% waterchange. The 3 females are also struggling a bit. They are off their food and listless for some of the time. I have increased the temp to 28 to see if it helps. I do not have a hospital tank. All parameters are fine. Ph 8.2, Nitrates 10. No ammonia / nitrites. I have 6 L. Occelatus and 4 J. Ornatus coming on tuesday and I am praying they will be ok. As the rainbows and tetras are fine I am assuming, rightly or wrongly that these new additions will be. I think the water change has affected the cichlids badly. I now plan to change only 5% daily as opposed to 25% weekly.


Are you also checking the hardness? African cichlids like hard water. I would add epsom salts, or aquarium salt.


----------



## starplayer (May 3, 2011)

Cheers Vann. KH > 20. Higher than kit can read. There used to be a lot of interaction between the females, but now there is no male they seem pretty disinterested in most things.


----------

