# Laetacara addiction



## DeadFishFloating

Hi,

My names Peter, and I'm addicted to Laetacara cichlids.

Unfortunately I live in Australia (Gods own country) and only two species are legally allowed to be imported, L.curviceps & L. dorsigera. I have a breeding pair of each.


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## DeadFishFloating

OK for you USA peoples out there looking into laetacara species, if you look hard enough you _can_ find species other than L. dorsigera. Here's a link to another forum with a member from Michigan trying to I.D. his species.


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## RyanR

Thanks for the links on the other species... I didn't know there were other _Laetacara_ in the hobby.

Our new lil' ones should be bound for a 75 gallon thank soon after a few more days of quarantine. 

-Ryan


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## blairo1

Hi, my name is Blair and I'm addicted to Laetacara.

1. I am powerless to control my addiction. Which is actually great news for me, it's not my fault any more, just try getting the other half to believe it.

2. I believe there is a power greater than me which _could_ restore my sanity, if it wanted to. Problem is I haven't heard back from them yet.... I don't think they want my sanity restored.

3. I _would_ turn my will over to the higher power, but I'm still waiting on the second steps return call.

4. I have acknowledged the deepest and darkest aspects of myself, sort of, I got bored and ended up doodling, maybe I haven't realised my blinding cynicism, no wait, there it is.

5. I am wrong, everyone, in my addiction, it is bad, wrong, sinful, self indulgent and a guaranteed bona fide ticket straight to the fiery gates, ye shall not follow thee or thou shalst burneth in thine deepest depths of hades dominion! -Insert insane cackling-

6. I am halfway, you get the point. Hand yourself over to the Holy One and give me your fish, there is no hope for my tarnished soul, I might as well take one for the team... Don't worry, me and my devil fish will fit right in. I have a good feeling that heaters will be obsolete down there - has to be an upside of some sort, reduced eleccie bills make for a good start IMO.


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## dwarfpike

Hello,

My name is Chris ... and I too am addicted to _Laetacara_ as well ... though it has dengenerated into not only my own addiction, but activately seeking others to seduce and addict to these smaller, personable fish as well.

Just call me Set.

:lol:


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## DeadFishFloating

rotfpml at *Blair*.

Ryan, Blair and Chris welcome to the addiction.


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## DeadFishFloating

OK if you haven't guessed already, this thread is the Laetacara version of the BRC = Bolivian Ram Club thread.

Seeing as the BRC has become a monster unto itself, I hope to bring a little order to this thread, in the hope that people can can find specific information without having to trawl through many, many pages (I hope).

So I have created a couple of links to other forums here at C-F, and elsewhere, where people can ask specific questions or find answers in relation to this great little dwarf cichlid.

C-F Laetacara Profiles
Laetacara Illness, Health & Nutrition 
Laetacara Tank Setup
Laetacara Photos

*Non C-F Links*
CRC Laetacara Profiles
FishBase Laetacara information
Laetacara curviceps - Mongabay.com


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## blairo1

Yes we guessed it Peter :lol:.....

I think we'd do well to rival the BRC thread, it's a monster of epic proportions.... I'm surprised it doesn't have it's own mass yet :lol: it _has_ been sucking a lot of people in. :?

I don't know whether there will be enough to segregate the info into the sub-forums like that, or if the mods will be happy with it - the BRC thread is vast but it took a long time and involved 4 or 5 of us at the core with a heck of a lot of our own postings as well as miiiiiiillions of questions being asked almost daily! But even so, had it been segregated like that I don't think it would have received the same coverage/interest - it's expecting more refined questions from the general aquarist when in fact most of them have only very basic questions that only briefly touch on each subject at a general level (ie suited to the general SA forum).

You might find that with your knowledge you would be better off putting this info into the form of a website like www.brc.moonfruit.com - Although my BRC site is not as in depth as it could be (due to other factors that influence these things - ie money and not having enough of it to run the whole thing on my own) it effectively allows you to cover the essential information in a readily displayed and easily navigated format. Now I made that after the BRC thread because it a/ taught me a lot more, and b/ showed me that there really was a desire for information out there that needed to be fulfilled. If I already possessed that knowledge it would have been my first step and although we may have seen less forum posting on the subject, it by no means detracts from the popularity of such trends, it simply saves a lot of time for those with the knowledge to share, allowing them the opportunity to offer more definitive and refined advice to those who then seek further knowledge - ie you essentially wean out the masses of basic keeping/id/sexing/breeding questions and are left with fewer but usually more specialised questions.

It depends what you want to do - increase popularity by means of FPR (fishy public relations), or to offer refined advice, if it's the latter I recommend a website, if it's the former, threads like this are excellent at hooking people in, but I wouldn't get too refined this early or you'll displace a lot of potential interest .

Just my opinion of course, personally I think a FPR thread allows you to see whether there is a proven desire for the information, if you get a lot of interest, that naturally increases the need and success of a follow up website. If it takes off then get working on a website (I'll build it for/with you) because you will soon want and need it yourself.


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## RyanR

Ahhh! This great time for getting all _Laetacara_ here! 

Our lil' guys finally transitioned out of the QT tank and into the 75g with the severums. Everyone kind of exchanged the secret cichlid "handshake"... kind of like dogs smelling each other's bum. :lol:

The _dorsigera's_ are laying low, hiding in the nooks and crannies of the driftwood. Meanwhile, the severums seem to be having fun watching and checking the new guys out. 8)

-Ryan


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## DeadFishFloating

Hey Blair,

Mate I understand and agree with a lot of what your saying. I just like a little organisation in my life. I honestly don't expect the type of response the BRC got, and still recieves. I do understand that the sections may make it duanting for newbies, and may limit general discussion.

My real hope is that these links can be used for more specific discussion, and make it easier for people to find information that may be relevant to a specific question. It's my hope that we can point people towards one of these links if they have a question related to profiles, illness, tank setup etc. People may be able to find information about something easier as they don't have to search through every post. Also people may see other people have asked who knows what questions about what, and not feel shy asking thier own.

I would like you to do me one favour. Could you please post a couple of photo's (in the photo section of course  ) once every couple weeks chronicalling your little fella's growth. Your photographic skill are so much better than mine, and like I said earlier, your little fellow is going to be stunner.


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## DeadFishFloating

*RyanR* got any photos yet?


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## RyanR

DeadFishFloating said:


> *RyanR* got any photos yet?


Not yet... it'll probably be a few days before they're ready for it, as they're still a bit shy in the new tank. 

-Ryan


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## madzarembski

Heres one of my guys I picked up a few days ago. Sold to me as Curviceps. Maybe some of you can verify. Thanks



























What do you think. He's a bully! All bark and no bite.


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## DeadFishFloating

G'day *madzarembski*,

My initial impression is dorsigera, but I think I see some blue trim on the dorsal fin, so I'd prefer to waite and see what they look like once they reach maturity.

What size are they currently, and how many do you have?

And a bully, who's he got to bully around, guppies? :lol:

Oh and where is Oswego?


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## madzarembski

Oswego Illinois
2 Curviceps about 2 inches
And the "Bullied"


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## blairo1

*madzarembski*, welcome! :thumb:

The lack of a large dark blotch in the dorsal fin above bar 6, well, could this not show it to potentially be a male _L. curviceps _Peter?

_L. curviceps_ usually only have 9 rays of the dorsal though, right? What throws me is that the 4th bar appears to be split which would suggest _L. dorsigera_....

Hmm, what about the lack of dark marking on the bottom lip, doesn't look much like the dorsigera in relation to the position of the dark stipe through the eye and into the lip....Just seems a bit different?

Just some thoughts....


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## DeadFishFloating

Yeah it does just look wrong, which is why I have been hesitant to say 100% curviceps or dorsigera.

I am wondering if the two haven't been crossed in the USA aquarium trade, hence why so many laetacara are sold as curviceps, but look more like dorsigera.

As for some of the identifying features your looking at. My male curviceps doesn't show the blotch in his dorsal fin normally, but he does when he's in his breeding colours. My female shows it all the time.


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## madzarembski

Could My "L Curviceps" be L sp. Buckelkopf instead?
















My friends at the GCCA suggested it as a possibility. My brief research on them indicate he/she would color up once he/she reaches maturity. What do you think?
Thanks for your insight.


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## DeadFishFloating

I couldn't say as we don't have L. sp. buckelkopf here in Australia and I've never seen them live.


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## blairo1

Well this is what I was thinking too *madzarembski* but I'm very new to Laetacara so I'd rather not confuse the issue. Your best bet is waiting because if it is L sp. Buckelkopf I'd expect a bit more purple in there.

Can you count the dorsal spinous rays as well as the soft rays and let us know.

Is the base of the caudal fin scaly?

The barring looks identical as does the position of the streak through the eye.

Can you count the scales on each along the lateral line and compare them, I cannot do this from the pics - my eyes are tired this morning, I just got up .


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## madzarembski

I will give it a try. I have never tried counting the rays or scales of any fish I have kept. It may be a couple of days as this tank has come down with a bout of ich. It's what I get for not placing in quarrantine any of my finds from the Cichlid swap. I am also trying to locate the vendor I purchased the \the little guy from. He may have a photo of the parent. As long as he's not a hybrid I'll be happy. It's very possible he/she something completely different as well now that I think about it. I know members of the GCCA do go on S American collecting expeditions and some of the fish eventually make it through the club. This may be one of those. I will keep you updated on my counting efforts as well as my attempt to locate the photo of the parent. I'm so happy I decided to start keeping again.


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## ryansmith

This is confusing.

I got some wild-caught L. dorsigera from Jeff Rapps a few months ago. When they came to me they were very small and had almost no color. Here is what they look like now:










Can anyone tell me if this is actually L. dorsigera? The flash washes out the color, but I can tell you that the fins are all yellow. The dorsal fin has a blue line topped by a yellow line along the tip of the fin. The tail is yellow with a blue trim.

Whatever they are, I love them. So much personality for little fish! Their fins and colors have developed a lot more over the past month. They're in a 150 gallon with some Mesonauta sp. right now.


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## blairo1

Can you take a pic without the flash Ryan.

I reckon this might actually be L. curviceps - the yellow and blue edging, the spot on the dorsal indicates it to be a female curviceps too - my dorsigera have purple-pink-bright orange edging to their fins, what you describe sounds more curviceps. But wait for Peter, he's the Laetacara man.


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## mallic9381

hi everyone,

i just bought two re breast acaras and i was told they where male and female, but when i came home and searched on the net i found that the male is bigger than the female and has bigger fins but looks exactly the same as for colour , my acaras dnt look the same one is smaller than the other but has no red on the bottom i guess it could be that one is mature and the other not can u help please thanku


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## DeadFishFloating

G'day *ryansmith*,

Jeff Rapps has a very good reputation, however accidents can happen. Your laetacara looks very much like the curviceps that are sold through most of our LFS.

As Blair asked, a photo without the flash on would better.


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## DeadFishFloating

Hi *mallic9381*,

Welcome to C-F.

If you have some photo's that would certainly help in I.D'ing your fish.

Not all dorsigera populations have red breasts. However it's unlikely that an LFS is selling dorsigera that are from two different collection points.

There is very little size difference between my pair, and thier fins are pretty much the same size. Here's a link to some photo's of them.


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## ryansmith

DeadFishFloating said:


> G'day *ryansmith*,
> 
> Jeff Rapps has a very good reputation, however accidents can happen. Your laetacara looks very much like the curviceps that are sold through most of our LFS.
> 
> As Blair asked, a photo without the flash on would better.


I think the only thing I bought from him that were actually what he said they were, were my Uaru fernandezyepezi. I've been told that my Mesonauta were not acora which is how they were listed, and now I'm doubting the Laetacara. Either way, I've been really pleased with all the fish I purchased... it'd just be nice to definitely know what they are before I start breeding them and sending fry to people 

Here is a pic without flash. I took 90 pictures and this is the only one that turned out even remotely. I dunno about everyone else, but my Laetacara hold still for _nothing_! Any time I'm in front of the tank, they are wiggling and swimming around in front of me like crazy.










The colors of the fish are primarily yellow and blue. I enhanced the contrast on this a bit because the original was very drab.

Keep in mind that I'm raising out all my fish in a bare bottom tank with light paint on the bottom and sides, so most appear washed out. I'm sure once I get my sand and driftwood in, the Laetacara will look far more impressive.

If these fish are actually not L. dorsigera, I should probably email Rapps. He's had them on his list for months as such.


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## DeadFishFloating

Hey *ryansmith*,

That looks more like dorsigera.

Those photo's look so different. I'm assuming it's not the same fish in both photo's.

Dorsigera are found in two very different water systems, that it's no surprise that different populations look a little diferent. I would love to see a picture catelogue of representitive dorsigera from the two major river systems they are found in.

Rio Parana drainage through Brazil, Argentina & Paraguay.
Rio Paraguai/RÃ­o Paraguay drainage through Brazil and Paraguay.
Rio GuaporÃ© drainage in Brazil.
RÃ­o MamorÃ© drainage in Bolivia.

Basically two different areas. The Rio Paraguay joins to the Rio Parana on the Paraguay and Argentinian border and flows south. While the Rio GuaporÃ© feeds into the RÃ­o MamorÃ© drainage which feeds the Rio Madeira and eventually joins the Amazon river.

Here's a good map found in the Library section here at C-F.


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## ryansmith

No, they are two separate fish. I've been trying to take pictures of the ones showing the best color. Out of the five, two are really drab without much coloring. The ones with color are all the same -- lots of blue/purple and yellow.

I should note that these fish are only 2 - 2.5" TL. I got them as little guys, maybe 1", back in June.


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## DeadFishFloating

You may possibly have bought two curviceps and three dorsigera.

I'm not familiar how Rapps sources most of his fish, but it is my understanding that he imports the fish himself and either on-sells them or breeds them and sells the juveniles.

It's possible that Rapps bought a shipment from a SA exporter, and was told he had x, y & z. Who's to say how and where th e fish were collected and brought together for export.

Have you tried emailing Rapps? I'd try this, but from a curious to _"hey where are my fish from"_ stand point, and not a p!ssed off _"I didn't get what I wanted"_ stand point.


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## ryansmith

Oh, I'm not mad at Jeff. Like I said, I enjoy the fish regardless of what they are. It's my first time trying Laetacara even though I've had my eye on them for years. We exchanged a few e-mails when I got them and he says they're dorsigera.

The five fish are definitely the same species -- they all show the same blue and yellow. It's just that some look more impressive than others (better fins, bigger, more active/aggressive). I just figured it was males vs. females.


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## DeadFishFloating

> The five fish are definitely the same species -- they all show the same blue and yellow. It's just that some look more impressive than others (better fins, bigger, more active/aggressive). I just figured it was males vs. females.


As per my sig, I've only got a pair of each, though in the past I did have five curviceps, three males and two females. From this group, the males were definately larger, but the females were always better coloured. Even when two dominant and paired up males were having a border dispute, thier colouration didn't match the females.

As for my pair of dorsigera, you can see photo's of them here. There really isn't much of a size difference or difference between colouration and finage.

But different populations may have different traits.


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## mallic9381

*DeadFishFloating*
thanku for the link it seems that thay look quite the same male and female, i will try and take pic and post it here dont know how to upload pics on this site, anyway i will try, as my dorsigera are always hiding cant get a clear photo . It seems one of my dorsigera is younger than the other thats why it doesnt have much colour yet. something else i would like to ask i just bought some live bacteria as i wasnt sure my aquarium had enough now the dorsigera i bought have been in my tank for 2 days now , how long do u think i should wait before buying two pairs of other cichlids and what type do u recomend, i was thinking about bolivian ram?


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## DeadFishFloating

Hi *mallic9381*,

First up, how long has your tank been up and running? It's important that your tank be properly cycled before adding any cichlids to it.

What size tank do you have? and what is your current full stock list?

Bolivian rams would be a very good cichlid to add with dorsigera, but I would say you would want to have atleast a 55 gallon tank to have a pair of dorsigera and two pairs of Bolivian rams.


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## mallic9381

DeadFishFloating said:


> Hi *mallic9381*,
> 
> can u pls tell me how to add photos first and formost pls? my tank has been set up for 5 days and its a 30galon tank but i put live bacteria in and its clear as crystal now dorsigeras seem to be doing quite well. i only have 2 dorsigeras in the tank nothing else at the moment.


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## dwarfpike

okay, so maybe I need a new monitor or just new eyes ya know from being so old and all ... but that first pic of *ryansmith*'s _Laetacara_ still shows a very bright orange dorsal fin edging at the rear ... :-?


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## ryansmith

dwarfpike said:


> okay, so maybe I need a new monitor or just new eyes ya know from being so old and all ... but that first pic of *ryansmith*'s _Laetacara_ still shows a very bright orange dorsal fin edging at the rear ... :-?


Which brings me to my next question -- is this the accepted method of determining which species of Laetacara you have? And if so, what are the rules (orange/yellow means this, blue means that, etc.). I guess I should follow the other Laetacara threads more closely. :-?


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## blairo1

The best way of distinguishing species is through taxonomy.

As an idea:
You count the spinous and soft rays 
You look at the barring of the fish and see whether there are variations (ie split bars)
You look at the position of barring in relation to the vent
You look at whether the barring extends into the dorsal
You look to see whether the base of the caudal fin is scaled or scaleless
You count the number of scales along E1 (in other words the number of scales along the entire lateral line)
You measure the distances between snout and eyes, between opercular and caudal, of caudal, etc

And so on, it is quite challenging to find this information but it is the most reliable way, here is an example and will be fun for you to look at and read and practice:
http://globiz.sachsen.de/snsd/publikati ... _63-71.pdf

I am very new to Laetacara so I am learning as much as you.


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## dwarfpike

*ryansmith* - it seems to work well in telling dorsigera and cuviceps apart ... but cuviceps, sp. 'buckelkoff' and orangeflossen all seem to have the silver/blue (depsite 'orangeflossen' meaning orange finned).

*blairo* - Yes, taxonomy is deffinately the best. Next to fish whispering of course! :lol: I've just never had the paitence to try and count scales as the fish races from one side of the tank to the other.


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## blairo1

dwarfdude said:


> *blairo* - Yes, taxonomy is deffinately the best. Next to fish whispering of course! :lol: I've just never had the paitence to try and count scales as the fish races from one side of the tank to the other.


Photos bud, that's the secret, get good at taking sharp pics and you have a nice clear, still point of reference .


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## dwarfpike

Isn't that one of those doohickeys that captures your soul?? :lol:

Actually I really do need a camera now, but I work tech support so can't really afford one. I got so hounded on another forum for my dwarf pike photos that I had to borrow a camera. :lol:

I really do want to get a pic of my dorsigera pair over the black sand, their colors are amazing. The yellows seem to predominate, at least until the red comes from breeding. Though since they are sharing their tank with a regani pike, I doubt they will be too successfull.


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## Hubbynz

This is a long shot but does anyone know how to get hold of these guys in sydney Australia none of my LFS ever have them.


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## blairo1

PM Peter, *Hubbynz*.


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## ryansmith

So, at what size will dorsigera start spawning? One of my fish has been acting ridiculous for the last couple of days. His (or her?) colors have shifted dramatically, showing the barring and the deep red/purple chest, and it's chasing and attacking festivums that are three times larger. It seems to be defending a sponge filter. The trouble is that it shows no sign of actual spawning because it doesn't have a mate. It's chasing the other four dorsigera.

Is it maybe just a really hostile territorial display? This came out of the blue. They've been fine until now.


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## blairo1

Not that I've got this far with them yet, but it sounds like it's a little more sexually mature and is in the initial "testing" stage of it's potential mates and tank mates. Keep an eye out for the Laetacara that fights back IMO - that will likely be it's spawning partner of choice (assuming it isn't another feisty same sex Laetacara of course!)

Based on general Dwarf Cichlid behaviour, as I say, I haven't go that far yet but it's what I would expect.


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## ryansmith

blairo1 said:


> Not that I've got this far with them yet, but it sounds like it's a little more sexually mature and is in the initial "testing" stage of it's potential mates and tank mates. Keep an eye out for the Laetacara that fights back IMO - that will likely be it's spawning partner of choice (assuming it isn't another feisty same sex Laetacara of course!)
> 
> Based on general Dwarf Cichlid behaviour, as I say, I haven't go that far yet but it's what I would expect.


The fish are only 2 - 2.5" but they're already dancing and showing off. I'm always concerned that my fish are too small to be spawning already. At any rate, this is what I'm seeing (excuse the washed out colors -- my room is dark and I have to use the flash):


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## blairo1

Looks a lot courting to me, at that size they're about ready too IMO. Nice fish!

Can you shoot video on your phone/cam?


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## ryansmith

blairo1 said:


> Can you shoot video on your phone/cam?


Yes. Unfortunately it's more washed out than the pictures. I did take some video of them shimmying and dancing for each other tonight. I'll try to put it on YouTube tomorrow. 

I have to say, these are shaping up to be one of my favorite cichlids I've ever kept. It was a toss-up between Laetacara and Dicrossus. I'm glad I gave the Laetacara a try.


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## blairo1

Can't blame you, what is it, 3am? :lol:

Addicted to Cichlids by any chance? They are very cool fish aren't they, my little guys are growing like popeye on spinach, still about half grown though, I can't wait for them to mature so I can enjoy the full breeding "dress".

:thumb:


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## DeadFishFloating

Awesome looking dorsigera *ryansmith*. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

And yes that definately looks like courtship behaviour.

I bought mine at about 2 - 2.5 inches and they had already spawned at the LFS at that size.

I have had a little discussion going over at CRC in regards to the possible origin of my dorsigera. Have a look part way down and see if yours look like Darrell Ullischs' strain.


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## Hubbynz

**** just missed out on these guys at the LFS, they got some in and were sold within half a day. Have placed an order for a pair to eventually go in my new 20gallon tank below

What do you think of the tank I just set it up today. It is my low tech planted tank.


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## madzarembski

That tank is great. Is that a DIY background. I think your fish are going to love it


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## DeadFishFloating

I seriously can't take a decent photo of my curviceps pair.

Here's a couple of efforts from today. Atleast you can get idea of what they sort of look like when not washed in a LFS tank.



















These photos were taken just before a tank vac. Remember they share a tank with 4 panque sp. L397 and 20 Lemon tetras.


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## ryansmith

*DeadFishFloating*, I definitely see the difference in the L. curviceps after your last pictures. They are much more blue. My dorsigera are definitely black & purple now that their colors have changed. It appears that maybe only my males are in breeding colors? The smaller three with the shorter fins (which I assume are females, but I could be wrong) darken up occasionally, but the larger two are very territorial and are guarding separate ends of the tank, even chasing my Mesonauta. They stay colored up all day.

Here is a video I made tonight during a water change. Excuse the siphon tube being in the way. My fish love water change time and I guess it shows here :wink:






PS - My tanks are all painted light blue because I was using them to grow out discus, but it's not the most flattering color for other types of cichlids. It makes them appear washed out.  One day when I drain this thing I'll scrape it off and try something else.


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## DeadFishFloating

Nice vid Ryan.

I really wish I had manged to buy the second pair I found in another LFS. I miss the interaction of multiple pairs in one tank.

It certainly looks like rival male behaviour.

I tried again to get a half decent photo of my curviceps today. Seriously, I can't get an in focus shot... :roll:


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## madzarembski

Hi All,

I wanted to give you all an update on my 2 Laetacara unidentified. As of right now, I have been unable to track down the breeder for a positive ID of my fish. Hopefully, he will be at the next swap in November. There has not been a reoccurence of the ich either. I treated with 8 days at 90. They didn't seem to mind it all. There have been no behavioral or visible signs of it for 3-4 days. My bully is definitely a beast. I had to rehouse one of the Apistos. I think the rest of the group will soon be leaving as well. My dominant fellow has claimed the entire bottom of my 20 as his own which brings me to a question regarding care. I was hoping to end with 2 pair of dwarf cichlids in my 20 High (1 apisto & 1 Smiling Acara). This does not appear likely. What is the general consensus for their housing requirements. I have an open 55, but I don't have the lights/decor/plants to support it. I also rehoused my Tangs to a 55 opening a 20 Long but would that still be a temporary solution? Thanks for the feedback.


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## DeadFishFloating

From my limited experience L. dorsigera are definately more territorial than L. curviceps. My pair of dorsigera killed a pair of apistogramma macmasterii that I introduced to thier tank. Tank dimension are 3'x18"x18", which I thought would be plenty of room for two pairs of dwarf cichlids. I even re-arranged the tank decor so that there were new defined territories etc.


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## dwarfpike

Wow ... I've never noticed that in my _Laetacara dorsigera_... but then they have always been on the bottom of the totem pole in my tanks. All four species of dwarf pikes always are above them. Makes me leary of trying them in my 40 breeder with a nice pair of bolivians one LFS.


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## DeadFishFloating

dwarfpike said:


> Wow ... I've never noticed that in my _Laetacara dorsigera_... but then they have always been on the bottom of the totem pole in my tanks. All four species of dwarf pikes always are above them. Makes me leary of trying them in my 40 breeder with a nice pair of bolivians one LFS.


 :lol:

I just new you'd say that. I almost mentioned that they would be fine with dwarf pikes, as they would be the sub-dominant species.

I do think that if you bought some juvenile dorsigera and some juvenile bolivian rams and grew them out together, they'd be fine together, especially in a 55g. My pair have had the tank to themselves cichlid wise, and have only had to share with tetras, cory's, oto's and a pair of bn's.


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## dwarfpike

Yeah, they may be dwarves ... but they are still pikes. 

My 40 breeder is the same dimensions as your 50 breeder, just 2" shorter ... Does make me think though. I know bolivians are larger than those apistos you tried ... but still. *Blair*'s tank I think is a 75 gal, so I doubt he'd have the same issues.

If you would have asked me if a trio of apisto's and a pair of dorsigera would have been fine in a 40/50 breeder, I would have said yes. I wonder if it's becuase they were in there first ...


----------



## blairo1

Bolivians are rowdy enough to cope IMO, the Laetacara haven't even thought to try it yet and they're getting pretty sizeable. I think the secret is getting Laetacara at a more juvenile stage than your Bolivians - as soon as the Laetacara get to a size where the Bolivians see them as a potential threat they are already dominating them (not in a stressful way just in an occasional, bugger off kind of way) so the Laetacara seem less inclined to even try their luck. I tell you the juvenile Bolivians had a head start on the Laetacara but these little guys are growing outrageously fast, they're the same size as my smallest Bolivian now and I saw a bit of intense breeding dress going on last night, so they aren't exactly innocent of mind either :lol:.

Same thing with my Keyholes, introduce an older one and it pushed my Bolivians around, introduce younger ones that matured later on and they lived happily side by side.

But, swings and roundabouts, like you say I don't know what it would be like in the confines of a smaller tank, I can't see them being that different to be honest, try it and see is the only way of finding out I guess!


----------



## ryansmith

The dorsigera certainly aren't afraid of anything. Mine have now started attacking 4" festivums. If any festivum gets near their territory, it's usually met with aggression. It was a little surprising to me. Usually the festivums are the ones with the attitude problem.

I'm sort of glad that I didn't mix them with smaller cichlids like other dwarfs. I think they seem to do better with the larger fish.


----------



## blairo1

Ryan what sort of territory are your Laetacara holding? (Area).


----------



## ryansmith

Well, it's a 150 gallon tank and one of the fish has decided that he owns about 1/3 of it. He defends about 2' of the end of the tank from the top where my AquaClear intake is, all the way to the floor. He attacks everything from the other Laetacara to the festivums to my albino bristlenose plecos. Luckily, the festivums only see him as a nuisance and basically ignore him.

I added some of my clay breeding cones and small flower pots last night in hopes of breaking up the tank a little and giving them other "properties" to claim. So far he still insists that 1/3 of the tank is his, though. :x


----------



## madzarembski

Ryan, Blairo, Dead Fish Floating after your discussion, I think I need to get that 55 running sooner than later. That's ok. It's always fun to set up a fish tank. I think the next swap I attend will be big on equipment and plants. Light on fish  . Although... with a 55 maybe I can squeeze in another species of fish. Let's see, hopefully, 2 more Laetacara, 3 of my caucatoides 1 male 2 females, dithers of course and ....? Bolivians? Germans? Angels? Festivums? Angels or Festivums would seem to make more sense since they'd occupy mid- upper layer of the tank. Thoughts? By the way, All of your Laetacara are stunning. I can only hope mine color up as yours have. What are your feeding regimens? I've been mixing cichlid flake, earthworm flake, and a sinking cichlid pellet.


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## DeadFishFloating

I alterante between NLS and Hikari dry foods; Hikari Cichlid Bio-Gold, Micro Waffers & Algea Waffers, and NLS H2O Flake, H2O waffers, 1mm Thera+ & 1mm Cichlid pellets. With feedings of frozen Hikari products; blood worm, brine shrimp, mysis shrimp and spirulina brine shrimp 3 times a week.

Typically I'll feed a combination dry foods, so I make sure my tetras, cichlids and catfish all recieve appropriate food. On days I feed frozen foods, I'll do two feedings, frozen early and a small dry food feeding later in the day.

I feed once a day, but time of day depends on whether I'm on day or night shift, or on a rdo, it could be any time between 6:30am and 4:30pm.


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## ryansmith

*madzarembski*, I had my five dorsigera in a 40 gallon breeder for the first few months they were here. They came to me very tiny, maybe 1" or so, and I was afraid to mix them with my larger fish even after their quarantine period was up because I thought they'd be eaten. They never fought or got territorial the entire time.

A couple weeks ago I moved them into my 150 gallon with my festivums. A pair of festivums spawned, and four days later my dorsigera went crazy. :lol: Some people have theorized that hormones released into the water by spawning fish will put other fish "in the mood," and after seeing what went on, I wonder if there's some truth to that. Not only did my other festivums go into spawning mode but the dorsigera changed drastically in color and behavior.

Hopefully they're just frisky teenagers and they'll calm down after all this posturing. I've had other cichlids go through similar phases and mellow out a bit. Then again, maybe they're just feisty by nature.

I feed my fish two or three times a day. They get a mix of bloodworms, mysis shrimp, occasionally a treat of frozen brine, and several dried foods: ONF1 flakes, Vitamin Flakes, Earthworm Flakes, spirulina flakes, and Aquadine cichlid wafers. They occasionally pick at the veggies I feed to my festivums and ABN plecos. There's no strict schedule that I follow -- whatever bag or jar I pick up is what they get that particular time.


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## blairo1

Well you know what I keep mine with, I wouldn't go too crazy in a standard 55 on account of it not having that much width for fish to scoot around other territories rather than being pushed over them, if you understand what I mean.

I feed mine New Life Spectrum and that's it. You can see how much I feed and what to be careful of when using denser pellets, here:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... highlight=

If you're interested in learning a little about nutrition I suggest you go through this thread here: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... highlight=

I'll post these here as well:


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## ryansmith

*Blairo*, what kind of camera do you have? Those pictures are awesome!


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## blairo1

Thanks bud, I shoot with a Canon EOS 20D with 18-55mm lens. For those shots I used a small, cheap flash held (in my left hand) over the top of the tank which is why the colours are washed out a bit, but I wanted to show the iridescence more than my last shots...


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## ryansmith

That's comforting. I've had the EOS 30D on my wish list for a while now.


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## blairo1

Get yourself CS3, if you go digital you will reap the benefits of easier post processing, although I don't like to do it at an overkill level I will naturally process the images, just as you would when working with film. Sometimes you can save a great shot from an otherwise distracting or poor composition, or in this case it is a shot I would have binned but I wanted the capture too much.

It still needs a bit of work to blend in what I've done, but I wasn't too fussed as I just wanted to get the moment up....

Before:









After:









As I say really that was a poor shot that I would have passed on but it was too good a moment and just shows what can be done in post processing! Ie cloning out algae, removing distracting shadows near tail, removing distracting "blemishes" or airbubbles especially those in front of the fish, bringing the levels up in the shadow of the fish to create an even and detailed composition etc. This is a more extreme case though.


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## madzarembski

Hi All
I have finally managed to locate the breeder/hobbyist I purchased my 2 Laetacara species ? from. He purchased them as Laetacara Curviceps Cachoeira wild caught from Atlantis out of New York. He does not have any adults as of yet either. He may possibly have one or 2 more for me come the end of November depending how his breeding efforts go. My photography efforts have been poor lately, so no photo updates. The dominant male is starting to color up nicely for me. Doe anyone have any information about the Cachoeira area of Brazil?


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## Hubbynz

Well my LFS has been trying to get hold of Laetacara dorsigera for a number of weeks for me now but with no success so I have had to settle for some Laetacara curviceps ....not that I am complaining like  I'm pretty impressed with them so far love the metalic colours and big finnage for their size and they are completely different to all my other dwarfs.

They are cute lil fellas at around 3.5cm or so, I tried to get hold of a male and female with the shop keepers help although it was pretty tricky at that size and I'm still not sure if I managed to do it.......doesn't look like any major differences except the one that I think is male has a much longer dorsal finage while the other has a much larger anal fin. They follow each other all around the tank very closely and chase off the Apistogramma Cacatuoides (which arrived in the same week). They share the tank with a pair of Apistogramma Cacatuoides in a 20gallon.

It was pretty difficult getting good shots of them without the flash as the are quite shy and react to sudden movements but I gave it my best shot

Male?









Female??



























Anoying room mate :wink:


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## DeadFishFloating

Looking good *Hubbynz*.

Pretty sure your female is a female.


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## madzarembski

Hi Hubbynz, Nice fish. How are they getting along in the 20? Is it a 20 long or 20 high? I have a pair Laetacara Sp Buckelhopf in a 20 high with several juvenile caucatoides. The Apisto's have taken a little bit of a beating. I plan on re-housing all into a 55 shortly.

I can safely say mine are spp Buckelhopf. Besides the opinions Blairo and Dead Fish and of several in the GCCA, Mike Wise on Apistogramma Forum said that "the bend in the lateral band into a diagonal cheek band is diagnostic fo spp buckelhopf" Also he let me know Cachoeira means river rapids and is not a locale in case any were wondering. I can stop Googling it now


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## Hubbynz

so my "female" is a female

but do you think my "male" is a male?

I'm a lil confused because they both have a black spot on the dorsal


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## Hubbynz

Well the lil guys have been in their new home for around four days now and are really starting to settle in with their colours coming out nicely.

Just one thing though is that have become overly aggressive towards the aspitogramma caca male....they pretty much go for him anytime they see him. It looks like they are not really hurting him but I would be gutted if they were to kill him as he was really difficult to get hold of (I had to wait for him to be imported from Germany to Australia) and he seems of a pretty decent quality which I hope to breed. There is a bit of a size difference.

Will the aggression subside once they establish territories? Or should I look to seperate them or perhaps swap my larger Bolivians into the tank emplace of the aspitos??

I really want to breed the aspitos.


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## DeadFishFloating

G'day *Hubbynz*,

You may have read that my dorsigera pair harrased and killed or caused the death of my Apistogramma macmasteri pair, and that was in a much larger tank. Your Laetacara don't have to physically harm your Apistogramma to cuase thier death, as it's quite possible for cichlids to die from prolonged stress.

My opinion is that a 20 gallon doesn't provide enough floor space for two pairs of dwarf cichlids to each establish a seperate territory.


----------



## madzarembski

Hubbynz,

I agree with DeadFishFloating, I just had to re house a male A Caucatoides from my 20 High afterr he was abused pretty good by my Laetacara. I plan on moving my whole gang into a 55 (48 x 13) to give them more room to vacate territories.


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## Hubbynz

Well I have removed the aspitos and swapped them with the three Bolivians from the other tank. Despite being 2/3 the size of the Bolivians they still go for them but no way near as aggressive as they were towards the aspitos but surprisingly the Bolivians don't fight back....they are pretty passive.

I am pretty sure I have a nice pair of Laetacara now as there has been lots of tail flapping going on today, they don't leave each others side and are staking out one corner of the tank. Hopefuly the Bolivains learn to leave their side alone. I am considering returning my male convict from the 20 gallon and moving the Bolivians into the tank of their own.

Anyway here are some better pics of the male


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## DeadFishFloating

:x 

Fin Rot - Help please


----------



## Hubbynz

Well a quick update

Some good news....I definitely have a pair as I arrived home from work today and they had spawned and were protecting around 50 eggs on a large anubias leaf. But the bad news is that they are housed in a 14 gallon with 12 neon tetras, 4 panda corries and one brsitlenose so the chances of the eggs lasting are fairly limited.

To raise the eggs I see I have two choices..

1) Try and catch all the neons and pandas and rehouse in another tank (which is very time consuming and I don't see it as an option.

2) Leave the eggs to develop for three to four days leave the light on so the eggs don't get eaten and then cut off the leaf and move it with the eggs to a isolation grow tank.

I feel the 2nd option is the best but do not want to rush into it with out checking here first


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## DeadFishFloating

G'day *Hubbynz*,

Eggs should hatch 48 hours after being laid, the parents will move the wigglers to a shallow pit, and possibly move them between 2 or 3 pits for the next 48 hours, untill day 5 when they become free swimming. It's when they become free swimming that the tetras will crank up predation.

Instead of leaving the tank lights on, it may be better to leave the room light on, if this is an option. If you can, plug your light into a timer. My two tanks sit opposite each other, about 2 meters between them. One tank is set for the light to turn on at 06:30am and run to 12:30pm. The other tank turns on at 11:30am and runs to 5:30pm. Also if you leave the tank light on for long periods, watch the algea go nuts.


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## blairo1

Updated....


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## DeadFishFloating

They're growing like weeds Blair. Tubby little fellas, what are you feeding them?


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## DeadFishFloating

Some you may have seen may failed link a couple of posts up and a week ago, Fin Rot - Help please.

Looks like the fin rot has been halted, follow the link for full story.

Anyway big water change yesterday then medicated tank. Smaller water change today and medicated tank again. I hadn't even finished refilling the tank when the curvicep pair started spawning. I've changed my filters around a bit, so there is now a couple of real strong currents running through the tanks.

So a couple of photos of the curviceps spawning in a flower pot.

Female laying eggs.









Male fertalizing eggs.


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## blairo1

Glad to hear you fin rot is under control, Peter, very odd! I hope they keep improving.

I feed them NLS once a day, if they're lucky, so it's not like they get fed much, just quality feed and of course, my keeping habits . Honestly I think they eat mostly algae, all I ever see them do all day is either follow each other around, or pick at algae on driftwood.... Most of the time their poop is green so I guess they're quite happily munching away at my algae patch.


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## RyanR

Purty, Blairo!

Is that a male in the last set of dorsiger pics?

We've got two that look just like that, with very dark black/purpleish bellies... and two that don't.

I gotta get some pics of our guys.

-Ryan


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## blairo1

Thanks bud,

They're both of the same fish actually - he's the tart, the female shows such strong colouration far less frequently than the male (although is probably better looking) and is generally more relaxed, whereas this dude is constantly "pumped".

Get sum pics up!


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## Hubbynz

Blair they look stunning

A quick update

A made a bad move last week on my first spawn by attempting to remove the eggs to isolation from the community tank and lost the eggs in 2 days. :?

School boy error.

Well I got home today and found this.....a week after the last spawn...stoked. I have been busy the last hr removing 12 neons, 4 corries and one bristlenose from the planted tank. Hopefully I have better luck this time. The lil fellas are growing quickly and breeding like rabbits. :thumb:


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## madzarembski

Hubbynz

Congratulations! I can't wait to see the kids.

Madzarembski


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## blairo1

Thanks bud, glad to see yours are settled in nice and comfortably :lol:. Making themselves right at home eh!


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## madzarembski

A while back, my 2 young Laetacara had a bout with ich. They seem to have recovered fully but ever since there netting and examination by me they have been extremely skittish when I come around. There before is a 180 degree turn from their previous boisterous behavior. They will bolt into hiding at the first sign of me. All the other residents seem to be fine. From a distance, I can tell the larger male still rules the tank. Any suggestions? Tankmates several A Caucatoides and dither platys.


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## blairo1

Spend more time right up at the tank front, keep them hungrier and tap the top frame of the tank gently whenever you do go to feed and they will soon be begging for your attention again.


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## Stephan

Hi,

my name is Stephan, I am 36 years and lives in Delitzsch/Germany. I am here moderator in the range Dwarfcichlid.

I can not really English and translate with a program. :thumb:

I have already longer:

L.dorsigera "Paraguay" wild
L.dorsigera "Argentinien" wild
L.curviceps "Santarem" F2
L.sp."Buckelkopf" "Marajo Island" wild
L.sp."Bolivien" "Rio Magdalena" F1
L.sp.??? ("Bolivien" "Rio Itonamas"???)
L.fulvipinnis "Rio *****" F2+3
L.fulvipinnis "Rio Orinoco" F2
L.flavilabris "Peru" wild
L.thayeri "Peru" F1

Best greetings
Stephan


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## Hubbynz

Thats nice rangeof dwarfs you have there Stephan I am very jealous.

Just a quick update on my second spawn.....well the eggs got to the wriggler stage after just hatching and were being moved around the tank from hole to hole for a day or so but on the second day the had "mysteriously" disapeared 

Oh well it was only there first real attempt so hopefully better luck next time and they don't eat the fry.


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## DeadFishFloating

G'day Stephan,

Welcome C-F.

That's an awesome collection. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

I think we would all love to see some photos of all your different Laetacara species.

How did you manage to collect so many species of Laetacara?


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## DeadFishFloating

Hey *Hubbynz*,

Mate they'll get it right pretty soon. Do they still have the tank to themselve? They should spawn every two or three weeks.

You might want to consider buying a small 10 gallon tank, and a sponge filter, as a grow out tank for they fry. I'm sure Blair or Ruurd can provide plenty of advice for growing out fry. Like what to feed them, when to seperate them from thier parents, etc...


----------



## DeadFishFloating

I might have to buy a couple of grow out tanks as well. :lol:

Just went to feed my Laetacara after reading the couple of threads on them, and found this...

Female dorsigera guarding a pit of wigglers.








Yes that darker shadow to the left of the female in the flower pot is a shallow pit of wigglers.

Male curviceps guarding eggs.


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## Hubbynz

Awesome congrats now you have to hook me up with some dorsigera


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## DeadFishFloating

Hubbynz said:


> Awesome congrats now you have to hook me up with some dorsigera


I'd love to, but really don't have the room or powerpoints to setup a couple of small tanks for growouts. Unfortunately you'll have to waite till I move and setup a little fishroom.


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## Hubbynz

Or you could bag me some fry and attempt to ship them lol
Ill pay postage and some extra.

:fish: :dancing: :thumb: :wink:


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## RayQ

To keep the thread going. . .

I'm not going to call what I have an addiction. . . yet :lol: What I will say is that I haven't been this excited about new fish in my fish room since I started keeping Tropheus. I have a 15 that is full of moss and a couple anubias with wood and rock, the three little laetacara that I brought home settled and started to color by the next day - what a treat.

A couple quick images of my L. sp "Buckelkopf"


















Thanks for looking,

Ray


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## DeadFishFloating

Very nice looking Buckelkopf *RayQ*. I'm so jealous. What are your future plans, other than to buy some more Buckelkopf?

If I've said it once, I've said it a million times. I hate you, I hate you all. It's not fair that I don't have access to all the wonderfull fish those of you in the Europe and America have access to.


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## dwarfpike

Duuuuuuuude .... I think I'll have to move to canada just so *RayQ* can ship me some Buckelkopf when he breeds them ... 8)


----------



## Stephan

My Laetacara fulvipinnis "Rio Orinoco" F2, my Laetacara flavilabris "Peru" wild and my Laetacara dorsigera "Argentinien" wild


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## RayQ

Thanks Guys :thumb: I have a while to wait before I can even tell if I have the makings of a viable pair (fingers crossed). There is a new shipment in, I'm told that they are different this time . . . the joys of getting w/c fish - you can never be completely sure what you are going to get until it shows up :lol:

DON'T HATE THE PLAYER - HATE THE GAME :lol:

Ray


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## madzarembski

RayQ
Your fish are stunning. I'm hoping when I move mine into their new home with better lighting I will have half the colors in mine that you have. Gorgeous.
Madzarembski


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## RayQ

Stephan - great looking fish and photos :thumb:

madzarembski - I'm sure that yours have the color in them, I hope mine become FAR more colorful when they are more than an inch long :lol: The largest may be 1.25" the smallest is about 0.75" - babies.

I am looking forward to shooting more after I add some dithers tomorrow evening - maybe a small addiction is upon me :lol:


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## blairo1

:thumb:

Lookin good chaps, we have some serious Laetacara porn going on :lol:.


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## blairo1

I'm letting my tank go wild, all the hygro you see is actually only four or five stems which I've been pruning to a certain shape for the last couple of months - this is end of a couple of weeks without a prune so the stuff is a bit wild and messy, but I like how natural it looks.

Anyway thought I'd post a pic of their home, I'm going to reduce on the planting a load, it's almost too sheltered and the fish hardly ever see each other :lol:. You wouldn't believe there was a Rotkeil, 6 Bolivians, 2 Laetacara, 3 cories, the Adonis plec and a few surviving dithers. It looks empty!


----------



## conor

Hi all. The Laetacaras I'm seeing are beautiful, particularly appealing as I like the deeper bodied cichlids. I was wondering, would any Laetacara species work well as a small social group of 5 or six in the way that Bolivians and keyholes can? I have a 190 litre corner tank.


----------



## DeadFishFloating

G'day *conor*,

From my limited experience I would say most laetacaras aren't as social as Bolivians. Once a pair forms, it's pretty tight, sticking close together and defending it's territory against other cichlids. Each of my pairs consider the whole tank as thier territory. Each of my pairs don't harras thier non cichlid tank mates, other than chasing them off when spawning and protecting thier fry.

I have had a group of 5 curviceps in a much larger community tank, two pairs and a left over male. Each pair guarded it's on little territory, forcing the unpaired male to the margins of the tank. Eventually the unpaired male challenged the dominant male, killed him and took his mate.

You could try a group of juveniles to start with, but I think you will have seperate individuals out as a pairs form. You might have enough floor space for two territories if you scape the tank right.

I do think of my male dorsigera as a mini, 2.5 inch green terror.


----------



## conor

Thanks for the advice. They really are beauties. At the moment I'm considering a Laetacara sp, an Apisto harem (I like Borelli and Agassizi in particular) or both. Not sure if two species will work now though.


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## RayQ

What are peoples experiences with mixing Laetacara species? Will they hybridize?

Ray


----------



## dwarfpike

I have only kept _Laetacara thayeri_ and _L. dorsigera_ so far, as that's all I've been able to find. And they were not at the same time. I wouldn't have mixed them though, not becuase of hybrid issues, but becuase of the prefered temp. differances.

If I remember correctly, only _L. thayeri_ and _L. flavilabris_ are found in the same river systems, but not together (thayeri tends to be white/clear water, flavilabris blackwater).

I believe I remember hearing about a curviceps/dorsigera laying eggs once, but don't think the eggs were fertile.


----------



## RayQ

Thanks, the same LFS where I picked up the other three has a fresh shipment of what appear to be Dorsigera (to my untrained eye anyhow :lol: ) I don't have a free tank yet. . . but I don't want them all to go before I have a chance to get some (he is a wholesaler as well) Please tell me your thoughts on a brief mix - no chance of mixing them up :thumb:

Ray


----------



## dwarfpike

If they are the same size as your others, it might work as a mix for the month or so it would take me to move to Victoria, BC so you could send the Buckelkop my way. :thumb:


----------



## edburress

Wow, everyones _Laetacara_ look great! Eventually, I may have to give them a try :lol:

Blair... I got a great laugh from your rotkeil in your full tank shot, he looks like he's deepy engaged in hunting for something :lol:


----------



## DeadFishFloating

Hey Ed,

Just FYI, both Curviceps and Buckelkopf are found in the Rio Tapajos. :wink:

Curviceps are found in the lower reaches, near Santarem. While Buckelkopf are found up river.
And I do know from expereince they mix well with eartheaters.

You can find a Laetacara to suite most themed SA tanks. =D>


----------



## Stephan

Hi,
I tested that times. In 160l I have L.dorsigera, L.curviceps, L.sp." Bolivien" , L.sp.??? and L.sp." Buckelkopf". 
Each kind pairs itself only among themselves. Even L.dorsigera and L.curviceps in different color forms hardly mix themselves. 
I had however times a L.curviceps female, which only L.dorsigera painted liked and with those bred, although approx. 90 further L.curviceps were also in the aquarium. 
I had already bought hybrid L.dorsigera x L.curviceps in the Petshop, which I would recognize however only at home. They were fruitful. I have photos of the fish, I look for it times.
I have already photos of hybrid L.sp." Buckelkopf" x L.curviceps seen. 
I think, L.thayeri and L.flavilabris could also mix. In the DATZ special edition is " Paar" L.thayeri shown, where paint a male L.thayeri and the female L.flavilabris is. Both kinds are very similar itself.

I hope, it understand me, since I can not really English and translate with a program. I have also straight little time, because we have a small baby. :wink:

I have still many photos of my Laetacara.


----------



## DeadFishFloating

*Stephan* thankyou for joining in. We appreciate any effort you go to, to contribute here, and we (well I can) understand your posts.

Now about those photos... :drooling:


----------



## DeadFishFloating

G'day *RayQ*,

I thought there was a distinct possibility that curviceps, dorsigera and buckelkopf could hybridize, and *Stephan's* post just confirms that. However, if your fish are still juveniles, I don't see a problem, and if a cross pair does spawn, you don't have raise the fry, and you can latter break the pair when the new tank is set up.


----------



## RayQ

Thanks for the comments everyone. I managed to clear one of the tanks and brought home some new tennants . . . I think that they are Dorsigera, let me know what you think. . .

(sorry for the poor quality shot/dirty glass)








(that's air bubles - not ICH)

Ray


----------



## DeadFishFloating

> (that's air bubles - not ICH)


 :lol: ...few, as I was thinking please no, not on such good looking fish.

P.S. looks like dorsigera to me. :thumb:


----------



## blairo1

Yup, that dorsigera alright. Needs a little TLC but looks good.

Nice fish Ray!

Nice variety you have there. :thumb:


----------



## RayQ

Thanks guys, I wasn't sure until I hit the little guy (or gal) with the flash, there was no apparent color showing.

Now that I am sure, what are your experiences with figuring out which are boys and which are girls? is it the fins? the head? or something I missed?

Ray
(I'll try to get some better shots tonight :thumb: )


----------



## RayQ

Here is a little better shot, I was using a borrowed 50mm macro - what a GREAT lens!










Thanks for looking :thumb:

Ray


----------



## DeadFishFloating

It's a purple one! Nice *RayQ* :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


----------



## RayQ

I was wondering about the purple! Has anyone else seen this? this pic is straight out of the cam except for a little crop and small bump on the exposure.

Ray


----------



## DeadFishFloating

G'day *RayQ*,

Different populations of dorsigera have different colouring. There are some with the deep blood red that all the profiles use, some with a lighter wine red, and a couple of different shades of purple. Unfortunately I seem to have got stuck with just plain black with the faintest hint of purple variant. :roll:

They same goes for curviceps, there are many locational varients around. I reckon the same will go for sp. buckelkopf as well, but we just don't see enough to know.


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## RyanR

Well, I knew we had at least one pair of dorsigera in the 75g.

While I was rapping on the keyboard here at the Cichlid-Forum... looked over, and noticed a dorsigera chasing our 5" chocolate cichlid away from the corner.... then the smaller severum. Odd... a closer look had two dorsigera taking turns buzzing a shallow depression in the gravel.

Sure enough, they're spawning! First time I've ever had pets attempting to make me more pets! :lol:

Any hints or tips? I'm just playing it loose... mostly I'm just finding it fascinating to watch. Fortunately, out larger (6-7") severum hasn't shown any interest in that corner yet.

Oy!... and I really wanted to do water changes tomorrow morning! :roll:

-Ryan


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## DeadFishFloating

Congratulations *RyanR*. :thumb:

My pair were failrly successfull with thier first spawn, raising them to free swimming stage before thier tank mates swooped.

I have done many water changes while both my Laetacara pairs have had wigglers in pits. But as most of you know, I have bare bottom tanks with flower pots in them, so the wigglers are pretty protected. Also my water is aged and treated atleast 3 to 4 days before it goes into the tank, so I'm not doing water changes direct from the tap.


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## RayQ

congrats on the first spawn! I am still waiting to see if I have any pairs in my tanks. . . fingers crossed :lol:


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## madzarembski

RyanR

That's great! Hopw are they doing? How big of an area are they defending? Are they splitting guard and fanning duties equally? Any other behavior you'd care to share I'd love to here the full report.

madzarembski


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## RyanR

Meh.

I flipped the lights back on before bed last night to find that the cory catfish had stormed the spawn. Grumble, grumble. Maybe I should have left the tank lights on overnight?

Indeed, both male and female took turns fanning the spawn, and both still had their "naughty bits" hanging out. They defended (pretty fiercely) an area of about a 7" radius from the corner of the tank. I watched hypnotically for about 20 minutes.

After cleaning the tanks this morning, I put a small flower pot where they had spawned. Next time, that will hopefully help a bit!

Thanks for the help! I'll be ready for next time! :lol:

-Ryan


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## Isis24

*Sigh* I wish my LFS had redbreast acara. they're so beautiful....so jealous!


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## RyanR

Isis24 said:


> *Sigh* I wish my LFS had redbreast acara. they're so beautiful....so jealous!


If I can get some grandkids out of ours, we could send you as many as you want. 

-Ryan


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## Isis24

Awww. I hope it works out next time! I know how frustrating it can be.


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## LittleFrog

Hey all, I just picked up my first Laetacara! I picked up 4 little Laetacara Curviceps from Spencer today, and I'm really excited, can't wait to see them grow up!


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## DeadFishFloating

Welcome to the *LittleFrog*. :thumb:

Make sure you keep a photo journal of them growing up.


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## LittleFrog

Thanks! I'll try, but my fish photography skills leave a great deal to be desired, lol. They're cute little buggers though, I can't wait until they're big enough to start showing some of the colors that all of yours have! This thread is what convinced me to give them a try!


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## DeadFishFloating

LittleFrog said:


> Thanks! I'll try, but my fish photography skills leave a great deal to be desired, lol.


Mate, you obviously haven't paid to much attention to my photo's. They mostly suck, but it doesn't stop me from putting lots of photos on here.


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## LittleFrog

lol, well, I'll do my best once they've settled in. I'm growing them out in my 11 gallon tank for now, then they'll go in the 25 gallon tank I just won!


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## LittleFrog

So I just found out that Spencer had accidentally mislabeled them. They're actually Laetacara dorsigera .


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## madzarembski

LittleFrog said:


> So I just found out that Spencer had accidentally mislabeled them. They're actually Laetacara dorsigera .


That seems to be the norm for Laetacara Species. I'm beginning to think Curviceps don't actually exist  There is a store here that has a tank of Juvenile "Curviceps" but they looked like Dorsigera to me.


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## LittleFrog

lol, Well, I really love the look of both species, so I was happy either way! Can't wait for them to grow up and color up! I'm still trying to get some decent pictures of them, but the little buggers won't hold still long enough for me to get a clear picture!


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## LittleFrog

Well, I finally got some pictures, though they aren't very good, lol. I'll keep trying to get some better ones, but for now, here they are!


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## madzarembski

More Pictures please  What kind of camera are you using?


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## LittleFrog

lol, it took me 3 days to get those! I'm using my brand new Canon PowerShot A590 that I got for Christmas.  Still figuring it all out, but it has an Aquarium setting that's kind of fun.


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## RayQ

They are great little fish! I have recently found that they are expert snail hunters! It's hilarious to see them hauling around a snail the size of a dime, I now have a graveyard of broken snail shells in the tank with them!


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## DeadFishFloating

G'day *LittleFrog*,

They certainly look like young dorsigera.


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## DeadFishFloating

He's a couple of shots I took today right before a water change.

The female is guarding eggs laid on the inside of the flower pot, and male is guarding the perimiter of the flower pot.


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## madzarembski

Deadfishfloating

I love those breeding colors. How many eggs would you estimate? This is not there first clutch. right?

Madzarembski


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## edburress

Nice Laetacara Peter! Looks like the new camera is working out well!

Ed


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## RayQ

They look Great! Are you using tap water to house them? I presume that your water in Brisbane is quite hard, just from my addiction to tropheus and a forum based on that subject from Australia. My water is quite hard and I wondered if I would have a chance to have them spawn in tap water or if I would have to do up some RO to make it work.

LittleFrog got her group from the same batch as I did, we have been lucky with the LFS near to each of us having great stock lately, I was just a bit luckier to have gotten some sp. Bucklekopf as well!


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## LittleFrog

Man, I hope mine turn out as nice as yours DeadFishFloating! RayQ, I agree, we are very fortunate to have Spencer's outlet so close by, though it's definitely bad for the addiction, lol. He always has such nice fish. I'm definitely jealous of the p. Bucklekopf though, maybe I can get some from you when you spawn them!


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## DeadFishFloating

G'day guys,

Happy New Year. I'm almost sober now and have had 6 hours sleep, so maybe I won't accidently delete this responses with one sentence left to write this time. :roll:

Hey *madzarembski*,


> I love those breeding colors. How many eggs would you estimate? This is not there first clutch. right?


They usually have around 60 to 70 eggs. No this isn't thier first clutch. They first spawned at the LFS as young adults in mid June. Untill they spawned, no one could tell the sexes of the dorsigera as they all looked very much the same. I bought the pair the day the fry became free swimming and the LFS siphoned them off. Here's a couple of pics of thier first spwn for me.

















Hi *Ed*,


> Nice Laetacara Peter! Looks like the new camera is working out well!


Thanks. The new camera is good, I'm still trying to work it though. I just wish my curviceps would be as co-operative as my dorsigera when it comes to posing, but they are very shy.

Hey *RayQ*,


> They look Great! Are you using tap water to house them? I presume that your water in Brisbane is quite hard, just from my addiction to tropheus and a forum based on that subject from Australia. My water is quite hard and I wondered if I would have a chance to have them spawn in tap water or if I would have to do up some RO to make it work.


I age my tap water between water changes in a 200 liter drum that has a small Eheim Aquaball internal filter in it to keep the water turning over. The drum also has a couple of bags of peat in it, and some driftwood that I'm currently not using in my tanks. My tap water has a PH of about 8.2 once it's settled over night, and I pulled this off the City Council web site; 
The average hardness of Brisbaneâ€™s water is:
100 mg/litre calcium carbonate 
5.6Â° (degrees German) 
7Â° (degrees Clark) 
Each of the filters on my tanks also has a bag of peat in it. My dorsigera tank's PH is about 7.4. The tank has a nice piece of Mopani in it that is still slowing leaching tannins, and there is also a piece of mangrove root, as well as three pots of plants.

Hey *LittleFrog*


> Man, I hope mine turn out as nice as yours...


Thanks mate. I often don't think mine are anything special, as they don't show any of the deep red or purple colouring you see in so many photos. When courting before spawning, both will show hints of purple on thier chest, but once they spawn they go black.

I think it's time Blair added some new photos of his dorsigera, so we can see how they are developing. Like I keep saying, I think his pair will show some awesome colouring when fully grown.


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## Ape-Fish

Ok, so i've never tried Laetacara before, but they sound interesting 8) ... what is it you all like about them? :drooling:

BTW - Happy New Year cichlid people of the world!


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## DeadFishFloating

Ape-Fish said:


> Ok, so i've never tried Laetacara before, but they sound interesting 8) ... what is it you all like about them? :drooling:


Well Laetacara dorsigera are full of personality, inquisitive, and won't back down from a larger cichlids unless fin slaped. I think of my male as a mini GT.


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## LittleFrog

Yup, I've only had mine a few days, but I'm already in love with their personality! They're already all swimming up to the front of the tank to greet me whenever I come near! So cute!


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## DeadFishFloating

OK today woke up and found the spawn hitting the free swimming stage today. It was pretty funny to watch. Mum and dad had obviously moved the wigglers into the second flower pot some time yesterday afternoon.

Today they were being driven nuts as it was like watching a waterfall of fry cascade over the side of the flower pot, with mum and dad in pursuit, trying to gather them back up and spit them back into the pit. At one stage there were three seperate groups of fry, the most advanced group swimming in a little cloud at ground level between the the two large flower pots, the second intermediate group swimming around the edge of the flower pot waiting to spill over, and a third group of late developers of wigglers come free swimming fry still in the pit.


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## edburress

:lol: Looks like they have a full-time job with all of those babies! Are you going to try to raise some? On a side note... your plants look great too!


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## DeadFishFloating

Thanks Ed. Yeah the parents alternate between rounding up escaping fry and chasing off the rummynose (who, incidently don't officially exist in this tank). If the parents manage to raise the fry to the size where they'll fit in a fry saver without escaping through the net, I'll try and raise them, but I won't have a fry tank untill I move.


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## RayQ

Great story! It has been a while since I have seen any fry in my tanks - what a great feeling it is to watch the parents gather up the fry!


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## Ape-Fish

Hi, I'm considering becoming a laetacara curviceps addict. Are these regular Laetacara Curviceps, or are they special looking? Do they vary a lot?


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## bobberly1

I had a breeding pair of L. dorsigera, they gave me many viable spawns in my hard, alkaline water. Definitely suggested.


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## Ape-Fish

Oh, so the last pair shown is Laetacara dorsigera? I got my tanks mixed up i guess.. :thumb:


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## madzarembski

DeadFishFloating

Befor your pair started to breed did you have additional Curviceps and Dorsigera? Would the adult males tolerate other adult males? My 2 Buckelkopf don't get along in my 75 (48x 18) footprint. I was curious if this is typical Laetacara behavior. I know my dominant has staked out the whole thing and is pretty merciless with the sub-dominant male. He's ok with the other cichlids only chasing them from his "house"

madzarembski


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## DeadFishFloating

G'day *madzarembski*,

I bought my dorsigera as a mated pair from my LFS. They had spawned in the LFS tank when I bought them.

I bought a group of five curviceps back when I had a semi planted six foot, 150 gallon tank set up. There were three males and two females. A pair quickly formed and staked out a prime area in the panted section. They set themselves up as the dominat pair. The male would chase the other two males, and the female would keep the other female in line. Evently a second pair formed, and the two pairs split the planted area in half, each with thier own spawning site. The third male was pushed out into the open areas, and really was picked on.

However, he fed better, did his fishy wieghts, and one day challenged the dominant male. They fought for three days on and off, with the subdominant male winning and claiming the female as his mate. The defeated male died a week later. Soon after the new dominat male beat up the other pair, and claimed that female, discarding the former dominant female. The other two laetacara died within the month and I was left with one pair who were originally the runts of the group.

My experiences are that curviceps are much shier in community tanks, but still aggressive with conspecifics. Keyholes, juvenile geophagus of the same size, and even male A. agassizii have dominated my laetacara in my 15o gallon community tank. My dorsigera pair have also killed a apistogramma macmasterii pair that were the same size in thier 3'x18"x18" tank. Right now, whether spawning or not, my male dorsigera will aggressively chase the two juvenile bristlenose that are a little longer than him.

At the end of the day, they are still cichlids and if put in tanks where they are the dominat fish, will behave exactly like a Green Terror. Well maybe not my current pair of curviceps, but certainly my dorsigera.


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## langosh

Laetacara dorsigera - breeding pair








Roman 8)


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## DeadFishFloating

Very nice pair Roman.

Do you know where they were collected from?


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## RyanR

langosh said:


> Laetacara dorsigera - breeding pair
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roman 8)


Yours are beauties, Roman!

Our mated pair of dorsigera looks like they're coloring up for another spawn.... so beautiful to watch them.... I wonder if they are getting freaked out by my face pressed up against the glass all the time. :lol:

-Ryan


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## erin1010

I accidentally posted on a new thread when I meant to post here. Greetings. New here. Laetacara were one of the possible suggestions for my tank and you guys seem to be the experts. My tank just started cycling with 9 danios so it will be 2 to 3 months until the dwarf cichlids pair that I pick go in. I will have 9 danios, 11 tiger barbs, 6 panda corys and a pair of dwarf cichlids. I want a pair of fish, not looking to have them breed, that will probably do well with my other fish and hopefully I will see them. I have sand substrate, a large piece of bogwood, and two planted sections at the ends with fake plants. The tank is kept at 77 degrees and its a 55 gallon tank, tap water is relatively soft.


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## DeadFishFloating

G'day *erin1010*,

In a 55 gallon tank that is properly aquascaped I would try 2 pairs of L. dorsigera. To start, I would buy 4 juvenile dorsigera and let them grow up, hoping I have 2 of each sex. If you get at least a pair, they will breed, but your dither fish will more than likely eat any fry.

I did read your earlier post, so know the Tiger Barbs are a _must have_. I do not have any experience keeping them, but would be a little concerned having read some peoples experiences with them.

I do have another suggestion for a cichlid that may be suitable for your tank. 'Aequidens' sapayensis - Gold Acara. They grow to between 4 and 5 inches, so a little larger than most Laetacara, but smaller than your average Blue Acara. Here is an article from the C-F library section, 'Aequidens' sapayensis: The Gold Acara. Also here is a photo of one at my LFS...


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## langosh

DeadFishFloating said:


> Do you know where they were collected from?


Well, itâ€™s domestic bred form ... in the Czech republic itâ€™s very hard to find wild caught fish in LFS (only some importers (wholesalers) sell them) - actually Iâ€™ve never seen any fish labeled with locality of origin in LFS...

My fish breed once a month but in community tank fry can survive just a few days...

Roman 8)


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## michelle767

Just stopping in to say hi. I recently passed the trio of bolivian rams I had in my 29G off to my mom and ordered some Laetacara dorsigera from http://apistogrammaapistodave.com/default.aspx to put in the tank. They arrived yesterday. I have four juvies, between 1 and 1.5". I thought I had two males and two females, but today the two largest, most colorful which I had assumed were both males, are flaring and staying in a corner together - I think there might be some fry on the way already.

Will try to post pics soon.


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## madzarembski

Welcome to the addiction Michelle767. Hope to see your fish soon.

madzarembski


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## DeadFishFloating

G'day guys, just a quick update.

Well my male dorsigera has taken to ambushing the smaller, male rummunose tetras in the tank, as well as chasing the male pencilfish. He can't fit either species in his mouth, but it hasn't stopped him trying, especially on the rummynose.

I had six rummynose that didn't officially exist in the tank, 3 smaller male and 3 larger females. The male dorsigera will sit calmly in amongst one of the planted pots in the tank, and when the small rummynose school swims pass he'll ambush one of the trailing males. I lost one late last week, and witnessed another cop a big hit on Tuesday, where the dorsigera bit him side on over the gill plate and side fin. Also he's taken to chasing the male pencilfish whenever it comes to close to him or tries displaying to the female pencilfish.

He's becoming a real mean little terror.


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## Ape-Fish

Thanks for the update. Let us know if they keep dissappearing. My severums never seem to catch all the last remaining in a school of dithers - the last of the Mohecans are usually middle size and fast on their fins. :fish:


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## RayQ

The addiction is still there, just thought I would pull this thread back up and post a shot from tonight of one of my Dorsigera. They are being hasseled by some Apisto Steindachneri, but, don't seem too upset.










Thanks for looking and lets hear more about everyones laetacara. . .

Ray


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## DeadFishFloating

Looking good *RayQ*. :thumb:

My male dorsigera has turned into real SOB. When he's not harrassing the female, he's ambushing my tetras, pencilfish and hatchetfish. I'm sure he's the reason I've found 6 hatchets on the floor over the last two weeks. And they only have the two small corners where the filter tubes run in and out of the tank to jump out of. He's also taken out one pencilfish and two rummynose tetras, one rummynose I saw him take out myself.


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## Hubbynz

I reckon Laetacara are alot more aggressive than people realise I tried to house Laetacara curvicep with a pair of Aspito Cacas and they beat the **** out of them and when that didnt work I tried Bolivain who I thought would be tougher and also had to remove them asap. My male Laetacara curvicep cut a large junk out of my female face above her lip which the end up getting fungus which I have had to treat her for two weeks solid and is only recovering now :-(....this put my breeding regime back a bit but at least I didn't lose the female. :thumb:


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## RayQ

Thanks DeadFishFloating, I am really happy with how they are growing and coloring, quite a lot of purple starting to show in a couple of the group :thumb:

Sorry to hear about the aggression problems, mine are just jerks to each other, they seem to get bullied quite easily in my tanks. The apistos don't let them sit still, I may have to move the apistos to different tanks!


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## DeadFishFloating

I'm getting more than a little peeved off with the behaviour of my male dorsigera. I've been holding off aquascaping the tank as I'm waiting to move (which keeps being put back and back), but getting to the point where I think I'm going to have to, just to provide enough line of sight breaks to help my female avoid unwanted attention.

I'm going to post a thread in the Tank SetUp section about moving a planted tank, so anyone with experience please put a reply in.


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## RayQ

good luck with getting the little bugger in line :lol:

Ray


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## Hubbynz

deadfish I thought your tank was full of plant pots???


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## DeadFishFloating

Hubbynz said:


> deadfish I thought your tank was full of plant pots???


It is. And a half dozen pieces of driftwood to boot. But it's not the same as a properly aquascaped tank, especially with what I have in mind.

Here's what it looks like today after a water change. Woke up to find 2 more hatchets on the floor this morning pissed off big time. Now have nets covering every possible escape hole.









I'll be adding this piece of mangrove root to the left side of the tank. 








The trunk (top of the root) will sit in the back top left hand corner of the tank (sitting around the filter intake tube), and the root's will spread down in a semi circular way, and take up practically the whole left hand side of the tank. There will be thin val growing up through the root system, with some crypts planted inbetween the buttresses. There will be two 1/2 fist sized
rocks in amongst there for spawning sites. And in the front left cornner of the tank and inbetween the back two pieces of root I'll plant some banana lillies.

I'm going to do this on Tuesday and Wednesdays, rdo's for me. On sunday I'll pick up a 2'x1'x1' tank, an air pump and sponge filter, already have a spare small heater. The spunge filter I'll throw straight in the curent tank to seed it. The small tank will be a holding tank while I do the aquascape. Then it will become a qt tank, come hospital tank, come fry grow out tank.

I'm going to keep the rummynose, pencilfish and panda corys in the new small tank, and just have the two juvenile bn's, some oto's, the remaining hatchetfish, add in a dozen Corydoras hastatus with my dorsigerus pair. So hopefully I have some success with the parents raising fry without any serious fry eaters in the tank.


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## RayQ

That is a great root! I love building tank decor around a show piece chunk of wood, your description sounds like it will look fantastic! Please make sure to show us some shots when completed. Hopefully the more "natural" decor will settle the laetacara down a bit and help him get into the mood for spawning instead of killing :lol:


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## Hubbynz

Looks like a great piece of driftwood there which would look amazing with some moss growing off it. Are you thinking of getting some substrate down soon?


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## DeadFishFloating

Hey *Hubbynz*,

I plan on doing the whole aquascape on Tuesday and Wednesday. I'm going to pick up a 24"x12"x12" or 30"x15"x15" tank tomorrow, plus an air pump and sponge filter. This will be my holding tank while I do the rescape. I'll also add the eheim 2222 to the holding tank for the time it takes me to rescape of the main tank, but leave the eheim 2228 running on the main tank.

My main concern is that eventually I'll have to move house. I would like to do a layer of eco-complete plant substrate covered by a layer of coarse grained sand for this tank as it will be my "planted tank". However, I would have to pull the whole setup apart when I eventually move, which would mean the two substrate getting all mixed up, which I don't want.

So I'll probably just go with the coarse grained sand substrate for the time being.


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## DeadFishFloating

Forgot to add.

The holding tank will become a grow out tank to start with. I'm selling a pair of my L397 on sunday, and will be picking up a pair of juvenile L134 in a couple of weeks, along with a trio of juvenile yellow apisto borellii. These I'll grow out in the smaller tank, with the L134 going in with my curviceps and the borellii going in with the dorsigera.

Then the tank will become a grow tank for fry. Fingers crossed.


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## dwarfpike

Wasn't it the dorsigera that objected slightly to your macmasteri apistos?

Or was that in the bare bottom tank now as opposed to the finished decorated tank after the move?


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## LittleFrog

Well, I decided to trade in my Leucisitc Honduran Red Points and move my dorsigera in there, since it's going to be a bit longer before I get set up the 25 gallon than I originally thought. Man, am I glad I did! I'm not sure if it's just the better lighting or if they really, really like their new home, but they just fired right up in there! the colors they're displaying are awesome!  I also added some tetra's for dithers, and 3 wild caught corydoras haraldschultzi. The tank's still a bit cloudy from the substrate getting stirred up when I moved the HRP's out, but I'll try to get some pictures tomorrow.


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## DeadFishFloating

I was in two minds on whether to start a seperate thread and inflict upon the rest of the SA forum a chronilogue of setting up my breeding tanks and aquascaping my two Laetacara tanks, but figured I'd just do it here, as there's less people to roll thier eyes at another one of my posts. 

OK today I sold two of my L397's, and with the proceeds bought a 29 gallon 30"x15"x15" and two 7 gallon 18"x9"x9". Still have some change to spend.


















Note: Yes I did a hack job of carpeting my garage, as my niece used to use it as a play room when she was younger. Now she's starting high school and has taken over the rest of the house instead. :roll:

They are going to go on the bottom shelf of my current tank stands.



















I'm not very _"handy man"_ inclined. Luckily my father is. I've got two weeks holiday coming up after Valentines day, and dad starts long service leave this week. So I spend a couple of days as manual labour with him, laying down a concrete slab for thier new RV, and he helps me in return.

Were going to paint the bottom and rear panels of all five tanks. Also going to paint both stands. We're going to have to re-inforce the bottom shelves first, so they can take the wieght of the tanks when full. The stand with the 29 gallon on, we're going to lower the bottom shelf by 4 inches so that a light can fit on top of the tank. The shelf with the two 7 gallons on we're going to widen by 1/2 an inch, front and back, so the tanks don't sit over the edges.

Tuesday I buy an Eheim air pump and four Eheim sponge filters. They're a little different than your normal sponge filters, but I couldn't find a pic of them on line and I forgot thier product number, so could not find it on the Eheim site. One sponge filter for each small tank, and two for the larger tank.


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## Hubbynz

Cool looking setup and great for breeding so I might get some dorsigera juves soon huh hint hint.

Well my Female Curvicep passed away today :? :-? I thougth she was recovering from her head wound but unfortunately not. Luckily my LFS has around 8 Curviceps in strock at the moment the only problem will be successfully picking a female as they are pretty difficult to sex at a small size. My breeding plans are on hold for now (luckily my Aspito cacas are breeding like crazy at the mo).....just after I had setup a nice 10 gallon tank for them too.


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## Hubbynz

ok I need a quick refresher on how to sex the females Laetacara curviceps.....longer straighter forehead and a more spade like anal fin??? Otherwise they look pretty similair huh.

I plan to pick a nw female in two days.


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## DeadFishFloating

Well little change of plans.

We will be making a stand for the 29g tank instead of putting it under one of the other tanks.

I'll be keeing my last pair of L397's, they're just to good looking, so the L397's and Lemon tetras will be moved to the 29g tank. I'll be taking the smaller eheim canister (pro 2222) filter off of each of my tanks and they'll go on the 29g. By the time fry out grow the fry tanks they should be large enough to survive the Lemon tetras, and the panaques won't have any interest in them, and I already do twice a week water changes for them, so water changes every second day on this tank won't be to much hassle.

My female dorsigera has a pit of wigglers as of today, so I bought two eheim spunge filters and an air pump today. I set one up in my Dorsigera tank to see how they run and what it looks like, also in the hopes of seeding the sponge from a running tank. The other I set up in one of the small tanks to see what one of the fry tanks set up would look like.



















I don't think the sponge will be sufficently seeded with bacteria by the end of the week, but I'll try pulling the fry then anyway. I'll set the fry tank up on an old TV stand next to the current tank, and change out 40% of the water every day, and replace with water straight from the parents tank.

Becuase I'll be taking the smaller canister filter off of each tank, I plan on running a spunge filter in each tank, and if I have to set up a fry tank, I'll have a seeded spunge ready to go. I'll still have 1050 litre and hour canister filter on each 180 litre tank, and it's not like I stock heavily or anything.

The Pencilfish and Hatchetfish will be going in with my Curviceps and two juvenile L134, and I'll be getting a school of Aphyocharax rathbuni, Redflank bloodfin tetra for my dorsigera tank. It's just coincidence that my LFS got two dozen of these in today, for the first time ever.


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## dwarfpike

*Hubbynz* - If they are large enough, you should be able to tell by the fins. I remember in curviceps the females of most reaces have that blotch in the dorsal fin, but not all curvi races may follow that.

*DFF* - You will love the green fire tetras (our common name for the _A. rathbuni_ here). Beautiful tetras, especially with a darker substrate. Not sure if they have the Flourite sand down there, but it would really set off both the dorsigera and green fires plus is plant happiness.


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## DeadFishFloating

Taking photos of the wigglers is not easy, as they are in a flower pot for a start. Another problem is the placement and intensity of the light, as it's almost directly over the flower pot.

The substrate is a rough sand, almost very fine gravel, that is golden brown in colour, and it's not easy to see the wigglers in photos against the substrate.

This is the best photo I could get. In the center of the photo there is a slightly darker circle. This is the wrigglers in the pit. They are busy, well, wriggling. Mum is just to the left, the dark smudge between two leaves forming a long V.


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## DeadFishFloating

Well I had to set the fry tank up a day or two earlier than I hoped.

I went to feed the fish this morning and both parents were in the flower pot, which is not normal. Usually the mother guards the fry in the flower pot and the male guards the immediate area around the flower pot. The female doesn't let the male in the flower pot, and if she thinks he's not doing a good job guarding outside the flower pot she'll dash out and nip at him, which usually results in him chasing the nearest pencilfish or bristlenose catfish.

Today, as soon as I tipped in some brine shrimped, both parents went for a very quick snack. As soon as they were outside the flower pot, a great waterfall of fry went streaming out over the side. The parents then spent a frantic 10 minutes trying to heard them back into the pot. The tetras got a few adventurous fry who swam to the other side of the nearest log.

I siphoned off about 40 fry and quickly set up the fry tank, and left about another 40 fry with the parents. I really had hoped to leave the spunge filter in the main tank for a day or two longer to seed with bacteria, as I feel the 48+ hours it spent in the main tank just isn't long enough.

I checked on the fry when I got home this morning (late shift at work tonight), about 15 hours since I set the tank up. They are two small clumps at either end of the tank.

I'm currently feeding them Sera micron powdered food.

I'll be doing a water change when I get up late this morning, and will try to get a photo then, but don't think the camera will take a good photo of fry so small. I will probably try and siphon off most of the remaining fry the as well.


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## DeadFishFloating

OK two quick pics and it's off to do a water change.


----------



## madzarembski

Nice set-up DFF. Looks like you're definitely going to have a lot of mouths to feed. It should be enjoyable watching them grow up. Do you plan on leaving any with the parents? It might be interesting to observe how well they take care of the young versus you.


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## DeadFishFloating

Hey *madzarembski*,

I left about about 30 to 40 fry with the parents when I headed off to work yesterday afternoon. Just finished do water changes, and the parents are down to about a dozen fry. The fry are just too adventurous and head off every which way, and it's impossible for the parents to coralle them all. They keep trying to return the fry to the flower pot and the fry have no interest in staying in the flower pot. :roll:

So far it doesn't look like I've lost any fry. But mine don't swim all over the place, but rather congregate in each of the front corners, swimming up and down. I want to put some small pieces of driftwood in there, but at the same time want to keep it as bare as possible for ease of cleaning.


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## Hubbynz

**** mate thats alot of fry hahahaha. I might have to look into getting another tank in the future for some of your dorsigera the LFS down here reckons that aren't that common at the moment.


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## Hubbynz

Well I have just moved my Laetacara curviceps into their new 10 gallon high tank which I scored off e-bay for $29 AUD.  I had them in a split 20 gallon with my aspito cacas but it was too much of a hassle. Anyway this tan is fully cycled and they share it with one pepper cat and I also plan to add 2 black widow tetras and maybee 1-2 otos for algae control. They have only been in the tank for around 4 days so they are a lil timid and very camera shy. I lost my original female last week so have a new smaller replace added yesterday which looked to have already paired with the male.

Their metallic blues don't show as strongly as when they were on a black substrate but I wanted to try a slightly different setup to my other tanks which have fine black gravel.




























The male, couldn't get a good shot of the new female.


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## DeadFishFloating

Looks good *Hubbynz*. :thumb:


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## DeadFishFloating

Hmmmmm 

Unfortunately all the fry have died over the last 24 hours. I don't know what the cause was, possible they were not eating the powdered food. I know I am going to have to set up the tank without any tetras, so the pair can raise the fry without any predators around.


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## madzarembski

DeadFishFloating said:


> Hmmmmm
> 
> Unfortunately all the fry have died over the last 24 hours. I don't know what the cause was, possible they were not eating the powdered food. I know I am going to have to set up the tank without any tetras, so the pair can raise the fry without any predators around.


Sorry to hear that DFF. Have you given any consideration to microworms instead of dry foods? Once you get a culture, they are pretty easy to maintain. I know some people think they foul the water, but I don't think its any worse than uneaten powdered food. Plus they stay alive for several hours in the tank. You may want consider keeping a target fish in the tank with the parents. To prevent predation, you can keep the target fish seperated in a breeder net. Just a thought.

madzarembski


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## RayQ

too bad about the fry. . . I'm sure that they will be at it again soon :thumb:


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## RayQ

My group of dorsigera have been unsettled the last couple of days and a pair of them have changed to a much darker coloration, I presume that a spawn is on the horizon. Here is a quick snap of the current coloring, tell me what you think (I think they are turning out pretty well)










Thanks for looking

Ray


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## DeadFishFloating

Very, very nice looking dorsigera *RayQ*.

Are there any other typical mating signs from your darkened up pair? Mine will usually do the little shimmy dance nose to tail, follwed by furious chasing in a tight circle and the female nipping the males flank and finally some lip locking. This can take or the best part of a day or less than 10 minutes.

I would suggest doing a large water change, something around the 40% to 50% mark. This will always trigger a spawn if I think they are ready. See my next post.


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## DeadFishFloating

After losing my dorsigera fry on the weekend I decided to try a different tact. Today I cleaned both tanks, doing 50% water changes on each.

In my dorsigera tank I removed the corydoras, rummynose tetras and pencilfish to the fry tank. Just leaving my dorsigera pair, two female juvenile common bn's, half a dozen oto's, and my hatchetfish. I also re-arranged much of the tank, so we'll see if the parents can raise fry with out any of the predators around.

As a side note. It usually takes 10 minutes for me to refill 50% of the water in one of my tanks. Small pump with low output from water drum to tank. :roll: I usally sit on an old milkcrate while holding the hose in the tank and watch my fish as the tank refills. About half way through filling my curviceps tank, they went into full on courtship mode, with some furious tail chasing in a very tight circle, and some aggressive lip locking. With about and inch left to fill, they started spawning. Man that was fast, and it was all initiated by the female. :lol:


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## RayQ

Thanks for the tip DFF, I haven't seen any tail slapping, that doesn't mean it's not there :wink: they keep disappearing behind a large rock in the corner of the tank.

Good luck with your new spawn, hopefully you will soon have two tanks of fry!


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## blairo1

Sounds to me like they are capitalizing on the situation. Fish are smart and they know when it's worth the effort, sounds like the removal of your "hasslers" has caught on. :thumb:

As for my little ones, they're not so little any more, but I need females, nothing more irritating than a female free fish party!

Ray, nice to see your pics of the little guys over at APF although pose (as you mentioned) could be a little improved (if we're being technical and picky), its a great pic of a lovely specimen. Have you posted it up here?


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## Hubbynz

deadfish looks like your fish have been busy. My new female curvicep looks likely to spawn already too.

Just one thing "female juvenile common bn's, half a dozen oto's" would they be the worst risk too losing eggs and fry as they will come hunting at night. I used to have a Bristlenose in my old convict setup and he would usually wipe out most of the spawn at night when the lights were out.


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## DeadFishFloating

G'day *Hubbynz*,

My dorsigera have never lost eggs over night. My male dorsigera generally doesn't like the bn's anyway, and will chase them away if they get to close to him. When it comes to guarding eggs, during the day the male guards an outer perimeter and is pretty good at it, and the female doesn't leave the eggs at all. Some times the male will come in for his turn to guard the eggs and female will chase him off, so he goes back to sentry duty. At night they both hunker down in the flower pot to look after the eggs. When it comes to fry, they share duties equally.

And funnily enough, I was in the LFS I bought the two bn's from and spoke to them about trading my two for two juveniles about otocinclus size. So next week I down size bn's. :thumb: . I saw an adult female common bn today, and omg was she big! I thought I was looking at a juvenile Panaque cf. nigrolineatus at first, untill it clicked.


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## RayQ

Still no spawning action from the Dorsigera, but I have managed a couple decent pics of the apparent male in normal coloration. . . odd that his dorsal is different on each side.



















It seems as if the color is comming out more each day now! They are quickly becomming my fav photo subjects and I think that they are getting used to me pushing the cam in their faces :lol:

Thanks for looking,

Ray


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## dwarfpike

That male is deffinately turning into a beauty *RayQ*!! :thumb:


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## RayQ

Thanks dwarfpike, I hope that the little fellow continues to improve! I can't wait!


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## bernreuther

My last of a batch of four dorsigera that I got last summer from a Petsmart is in a hospital tank with a big zit on his head, so I was worried that they were overly sensitive and not hardy fish, but reading this and some other threads made me decide to chalk it up to a bad batch (lesson learned: don't trust Petsmart fish!). As luck would have it, this morning I found a batch of seven 2 inchers at the Chicago swap. They were labeled as "yellow curvicepts" and were much lighter than the dorsigera, though they still were mostly yellow. I'll have to get photos tomorrow and post them here, but I think they're the real deal (in Chicago it is hard to find anything other than Dorsigera). I picked up a pair of little feisty dorsigera from a store on the way home too, since the remaining guy is doing better and needs friends of his own kind.

Wouldn't you know, the little guys started courting within 2 hours of being dropped into my tank. There's one that seems to get picked on by the others, but half of them are already showing very bright light blue colors, and they seem quite happy to dart around in between plants and two couples are already doing the shimmying and circling around.

I have always been interested in these little guys and am really happy to have found some. Hopefully I'll have better luck with them this time around.

Peter, do I remember correctly that for a while you had both dorsigera and curviceps in the same tank? Because if I'm right about these ones being curviceps, I have 7 and 3 of each, and I wouldn't want them to mix. Right now I can tell the original three apart but I know that these guys change colors dramatically all the time. I don't want to be confused later.


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## DeadFishFloating

Very nice pickup *bernreuther*. :thumb:

I've never kept the two species together. I do know some one local, who did. It was supposed to be a short term solution while he re-arranged a couple of his tanks. It didn't go well as the dominant male dorsigera killed a female curviceps.


----------



## Stephan

Hey Ray, very nice! =D> :thumb:


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## bernreuther

DeadFishFloating said:


> Very nice pickup *bernreuther*. :thumb:
> 
> I've never kept the two species together. I do know some one local, who did. It was supposed to be a short term solution while he re-arranged a couple of his tanks. It didn't go well as the dominant male dorsigera killed a female curviceps.


Hm. Well that's not good. I'll have to keep an eye on it.

There's still a decent chance they're all the same fish, but the one guy that is in the hospital (doing well, going to put him back soon) is dominant and much larger, so I won't want any problems with that.

I need to clean the tank, especially the algae on the walls, but once I do that hopefully I can get some good photos.


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## RayQ

Stephan said:


> Hey Ray, very nice! =D> :thumb:


Thanks :thumb:

Ray


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## bernreuther

I hate to follow up such nice photos with such ****, but here are my poor attempts at capturing my new guys. I attached the pics within my thread about my female orangehead.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... stcount=21

When I turn on the 10000k CF bulbs the blue really jumps out. The guy in the shot with the red tetras is definitely dorsigera, as is one other, but the other 7 are curviceps, right? The one after the super blurry shot (which I just included because it shows the color well) confuses me though, because I see both the bright blue and the purplish markings.


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## DeadFishFloating

G'day *bernreuther*,

It's not easy to tell from some of those photos. But here's my take.
Photo 8 NA.
Photo 7 certainly looks like a dorsigera.
Photos 1 & 2 look like curviceps, but a little hard to tell.
Photos 3 & 9 a little fuzzy but look like curviceps.
Photo 4 "looks like" three female curviceps. 
Photos 5 & 6 "looks like" One male and three/two female curviceps.

That's my guess anyway.


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## DeadFishFloating

Well my dorsigera have spawned again. I did a large water change on Monday (today is Wedendsay for all the yanks who are behind the times  ) and woke up Tuesday to find my pair guarding a spot in a flower pot. But for the life of me I couldn't see any eggs stuck to the inside of the flower pot. Today they have moved flower pots, and I can see a large pit of eggs with eyes.

I am 100% positive the last time and this time, my dorsigera have laid eggs in a pit instead of laying them on the inside of a flower pot. And this time, only two weeks between spawns instead of the normal three weeks. A couple of little interesting changes of behaviour.

So this time I'm leaving the fry with the parents. Only tank inhabitants are two 3" female bn's, 15 hatchetfish and 6 otocinclus. So I'm hoping the parents raise the fry to a decent size. I will be setting up two BBS cultures in a couple of 2 litre coke bottles, running alternate days.

I go back to work tonight, and have 5 night shifts before I go on 2 weeks holiday, so I am hoping the fry don't become free swimming untill Saturday or Sunday.


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## RayQ

> I hate to follow up such nice photos with such #%$&, but here are my poor attempts at capturing my new guys


nothing wrong with the shots that a little practice and a lot of patience can't fix :thumb: (if you are interested just google "aquatic photography" there are tons of tips that got me started) I can't say that I would necessarily know the difference between Dorsigera and Curviceps as I have never seen any. . . :lol: but, they do look different for the most part than any other Laetacara that I have seen, other than pic 7.

Congrats on the new fry DFF - hope they come to free swimming and beyond for you opcorn:

Ray


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## DeadFishFloating

Well for the last three days the parents have been moving the spawn from pot plant to pot plant, digging a new pit each day.

I've just gone in today to do a water change and vac on the tank before the wigglers become free swimming. Ooops. First thing I see is a great big cloud of free swimming fry slowly being hearded around the tank. Usually there's atleast a day where the parents keep the free swimming fry in a pot plant. Not this time.

So I've just set up my first brine shrimp hatchery.

I can't take any photos becuase my sister has taken the camera to Melbourne with her on her weekend poker tournament. Biatch!.


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## Hubbynz

nice one deadfish

my new curvicep female has already produced her first batch off eggs and they are in the wriggler stage.

She is of same quality as my last female if you were interested in getting a couple once they grow out.


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## RayQ

congrats to both of you! I'm still waiting on my Dorsigera, lots of show. . . no action :lol:

Ray


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## Hubbynz

Here are some crappy pics of my Laetacara curviceps in breeding colours....sorry about the quality but these guys freak when they see the camera :?





































The male is doing most of the egg/fry protection as the female seems a lil inexperienced and just lurks on the outskirts. The male hasn't left them for a second not even for food.


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## madzarembski

bernreuther said:


> I hate to follow up such nice photos with such #%$&, but here are my poor attempts at capturing my new guys. I attached the pics within my thread about my female orangehead.
> 
> http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... stcount=21
> 
> When I turn on the 10000k CF bulbs the blue really jumps out. The guy in the shot with the red tetras is definitely dorsigera, as is one other, but the other 7 are curviceps, right? The one after the super blurry shot (which I just included because it shows the color well) confuses me though, because I see both the bright blue and the purplish markings.


Hi Benreuther

Did you pick them up form Jeff (Aquaticclarity) at the GCCA swap. The reason I ask is that he mentioned on a seperate forum that he picked up some "Yellow Curviceps" to work with a couple months back from a Chicago wholesaler. I wondered if he decided to move them instead. If you want, I can PM you his information and he can tell you specifically where he got them from.

Madzarembski


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## bernreuther

I didn't get his name, but he had on a Packer sweatshirt and mentioned that he got them from a wholesaler without asking many questions.

Now that I have a trio of dorsigera in with these new guys it is pretty obvious that they're legit Curviceps. This is great... I had been interested in getting these fish since 2006 when I first saw a pic of one in bright blue breeding dress.

So far I have found these curviceps to be fiestier with the other fish than the dorsigera I have had. They come right out and battle for the food. The dorsigera have always tended to hide a bit more and wait for food to fall to them.

My male kribensis (I know, wrong continent - but they had to move from another tank) is kind of slow-motion chasing them sometimes, though. They seem to want to claim the same territory for breeding (even though the kribs haven't gotten busy yet).


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## DeadFishFloating

Hey guys, a quick update. My camera is still interstate so you're all spared a gazillion photos. The fry have been free swimming since friday. There are are about 20 left, all active and looking a little bigger. I have two brine shrimp hatcheries going, but to be honest I don't know if they're eating the bbs yet. I know the fry appear to graze up the sides of the flower pots, and do forage through the green hair algea.


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## blairo1

Here we go Peter,

I've been too busy to get on the forum recently, well to do much of anything other than work to be honest. But I've got a few days off so it's update time, not a whole lot to show as I have two males so it detracts from their appearance as they have no ladies to show off to. Even so you can see how much they've filled out.... :lol:. I don't understand it I barely feed my fish once every couple of days and yet these guys are still little porkers.

Finnage:









Starting trouble:









Started trouble, now cruising away:









I'd love to see this guy in breeding colouration, he's pretty strongly coloured as it is, I'm desperately trying to find some females (generally some more dorsigera would be nice).

Glad to hear you guys are all having success with them and Peter, I hope this batch of fry make it!! :thumb:


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## RayQ

They look good to me :thumb: Good luck finding some ladies for the gents :lol:

Ray


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## DeadFishFloating

Looks very nice Blair. :thumb:

He is a litle tubby. Probably needs some exercise chasing some girls around.


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## DeadFishFloating

Another quick update on my fry. Still no photos. On Monday the female started chasing the male away from the fry and Tuesday she was actively defending the fry from him, so I pulled the fry and set them up in a fry tank. Still feeding a mixture of bbs and Sera micron powder fry food, and doing daily 20% water change, refilling the fry tank with water from the parents tank.

I'm glad I'm on two weeks holiday to laze around the house (varnish all my tank stands, add backgrounds to tanks, scape and plant them out, weed i.e slash and burn the back garden/rainforest...). It means I can keep an eye the fry and hope the get to a little decent size before I go back to work.


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## DeadFishFloating

hahahahahahahahahaha I got my camera back.

I tried to get some photos of the fry, but there's no light on the tank and it's not easy to get into a good position around the tank as it's tucked away under the parents tank, and has another tank beside it.

So I decided to take some photos of tanks new inhabitants, 6 dwarf corydoras and 6 greenfire tetras. They're still getting used to the tank are pretty shy, but are showing good colours already.



















The dwarf corys are very funny. They spend much of the time high up in the water column, hovering like small hummingbirds. The greenfire tetras are a little different too. They are a very slow swimming tetra most of the time, cruising amongst the plants and just grazing along the leaf edges.


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## DeadFishFloating

I tried to get some updated pics of my dorsigera pair, but the female has gone into hiding as having just lost her most recent fry she's not ready to breed, but the male is keen and constantly searchers her out. It was very hard to get a good photo of my mini GT, as he's constantly active.

Here's the best of a bad bunch of photos. Notice how he's developed a small nauchal bump, and looks very much like his larger 'aequidens' cousins. He has a very nice dorsal fin extension now, and all his fins are very long. I hope to get another good photo of him when the female is ready to breed in a couple of weeks, as he pretty much struts his stuff all day long then.


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## japes

I'm currently keeping 4 F0 _Laetacara dorsigera_ from the same import batch as Peter. I currently believe I have 3M 1F, and there's been some courting/pairing behaviour but nothing serious yet. They're currently housed in a 60x15x18" SA Community setup along with a handful of _Geophagus_ sp. 'Araguaia Orange Heads'.

Hoping for a pair so I can cut into Peters share of the market


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## DeadFishFloating

Hey Ryan, welcome mate. :thumb:

Now Blair's got some one to rival him in the photo taking department.


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## dwarfpike

Hey *Japes* ... nice to see you making it over this way. :thumb:


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## japes

DeadFishFloating said:


> Now Blair's got some one to rival him in the photo taking department.


I'm glad your pair weren't flaring in breeding dress while I was down there, then I would have felt really bad for not bringing the camera 



dwarfpike said:


> Hey *Japes* ... nice to see you making it over this way. :thumb:


Greetings *dwarfpike*, chasing a community with more dedicated hobbyists than MFK, although I can't say that's too difficult to accomplish :lol:


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## DeadFishFloating

japes said:


> DeadFishFloating said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now Blair's got some one to rival him in the photo taking department.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad your pair weren't flaring in breeding dress while I was down there, then I would have felt really bad for not bringing the camera
Click to expand...

Ryan, you're more than welcome to come down and take some photos when ever you want. I reckon some time early this week, they'll start displaying in earnest.

Mate you should put some of your Sev photo's in the Severum lover around the world thread.

Also check out *Blairo1s'* thread 75 Update-Major prune and 'scape. Rottie is getting too big! to see what your up against in the photography skillz stakes. OH and look at Blairs' Tanks as well, he's one of, if not, the best here.


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## Hubbynz

**** I think my curviceps have eaten like 2/3 of their fry and their breeding colours are gone, next time after a couple of days of free swimming I think I'll separate the parents.


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## DeadFishFloating

Hubbynz said:


> darn I think my curviceps have eaten like 2/3 of their fry and their breeding colours are gone, next time after a couple of days of free swimming I think I'll separate the parents.


Yup my male dorsigera did the same. Fry were free swimming Thursday/Friday, by Sunday he was losing interest and female was butting him away. Woke up Monday and he was picking off stray fry and the female was chasing him off. I pulled about 20 fry (still growing slowly) on the Monday, there were a couple still left in the main tank. I reckon the original spawn was around 70 to 80 fry on the Friday

I think in the wild the female would chase the male off soon after the fry became free swimming. I don't know how long the female would stay looking after the fry.


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## blairo1

:lol: You guys are nuts (and too kind, there are a lot of very talented photographers and aquascapists in hiding here!!)

Ryan, welcome, I look forward to seeing your Laetacara shots. :thumb:

Sorry to hear you guys are losing fry again, just count yourselves lucky - at least you've got females with your males!! :x I still can't find any more dorsigera at the moment and believe me I've been hounding every LFS/importer 'til they're sick to the back teeth of me. Hopefully something will come in soon.


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## LittleFrog

Well, I managed to get some new pictures of my guys. They're not very good, but they do show the colors they're displaying. 


































That's it, I'm really loving these guys, so pretty and they're so much fun to watch!


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## DeadFishFloating

Very nice looking dorsigera *LittleFrog*. :thumb: Looks like they have a great tank as a home.


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## DeadFishFloating

OK baby photo time...

Crapy photo's, they're still very small, but starting to look like little fish.


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## Isis24

Very cute baby fish! Please keep posting as they grow!


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## DeadFishFloating

I think I may have achieved my final stock list for this tank. All the fish are native to the Rio Paraguay, it's concievable that they could be found together along an overgrown bank of a tributary.

*Stock List*
1 Pair Laetacara dorsigera 
18 Aphyocharax rathbuni - Green Fire tetras 
15 Corydoras hastatus - Dwarf corydoras 
3 Ancistrus cf. cirrhosus - common bristlenose pleco

I have a deal with one of my LFS that allows me to swap my bn's when they reach app. 3 inches for smaller bn's around 1 inch. My male dorsigera ignores the small bn's, but when they grow to a similar length to him he starts chasing them around on sight.

The green fire tetras are very nice looking, pretty much stay in the upper half of the tank, but don't really school much. They're learning to keep an eye out for the male dorsigera, as I reckon thier red flanks are like a red rag to a bull. Every now and then he'll make an attempted ambush at one of the tetras, but hasn't yet connected with one.

If you ever keep a tank of dwarf cichlids with no larger cichlids, I highly recommend getting on of the dwarf corydoras species. These guys school midwater, much like schooling tetras, and will occasionally drop down to the substrate for a quick search for food, then back up to midwater. They also love searching through the green hair algea on the logs and pots for food. It's funny seeing a coupling of small cories emerge from amongst the hair algea, look around, pause for a second, then spend 15 to 20 econds frantically looking for the rest of the school.

I've also added about a dozen Indian Almond Leaves, and boy do the dorsigera and bn's love getting in amongst them.

OK some more crappy photos


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## andrew__

Hello Laetacara people 

I recently found a fantastic deal on Laetacara curviceps (whether they are or not remains to be seen) and couldn't help but pick up 6 of them. :fish: I've got them in my 5' 65gal with my Rotkeil sev, female ram (long sad story - my male received an injury defending his fry and never recovered, eventually getting a secondary infection that he couldn't fight off - I'll be getting back into Rams but not just yet), bleeding heart tetras, cherry barbs, corys and abn plecos.

I think they're dorsigera because of the lateral stripe. Will have to see how they colour up, this pictures were taken shortly after being released into the tank.


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## DeadFishFloating

G'day *andrew__*,

Definately dorsigera mate. :thumb:

Looks like they have a very nice tank. :thumb: :thumb:


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## Hubbynz

Great looking fish andrew

Dead...sounds like your tanks/fry are coming along nicely....Pygmy corries sound like a good option maybee I shoud look into some.

Well a week after eating all my fry my Curviceps have laid another batch this time at least twice the size of the last one more than enough to cover two two 50c ent peices (AUD lol)....well over 100 eggs

;-)


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## spxsk

OK, I see how this thread got started, I now have what I think is Laetacara Thayeri I found in a LFS. I am working to catch good photos of them. The thing I am amazed by is the very long extensions of reddish filaments at the posterior end of the dorsal fin. Almost like acaricthys heckelii. I am working to get photos but they are just settling into the tank. I have noticed quite a bit of yellow in their bodies, not so much striping in the tail as a curviceps, and some slight green stripes below the eye. I will post photos soon, but wanted to share my find, and see if anyone can start pointing me in directions of picture sights for identification.

Thanks,


----------



## spxsk

OK, caught some photos, please I am new to laetacara and am wondering what I have here. I truly appreciate all your input. These photos are of a fish that is not quite 4" yet, lip to tail.
















































Again, thank you for your help.


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## japes

Looks like an Acara of some sort, and actually looks a lot bigger than what it is in those photos I believe. Laetacara thayeri does look incredibly similiar so I think you might be onto something. Definitely has similiar markings on the operculum, the face, and from the back of the head to the lateral spot.

It's looking quite dull at the moment so hopefully the ID is easier when it colours up.


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## spxsk

I have only had them for less than a week, and they were stressed out having been crammed into a tank. These two fish also were in the batch. They were sold as aequidens paja which is something I have never been able to find. Here are the two other fish that were in the group they sold me.

















And this fish as well

























Again, thank you for any help in identifying these fish.


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## DeadFishFloating

G'day *spxsk*,

Wow a very nice find there. I'm rather hesitant to have a guess at what any of your new cichlids are.

I suggest having a look at Alf Stalsbergs' Genus Laetacara. At the bottom of the page is Alfs' email address, you could email him the photos and ask for a possible ID of your fish. I have emailed him before to ID an Acara, and he was very helpfull. He's very easy to talk to, and will take the time to answer.


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## dwarfpike

*spxsk* - The first pretty guy you posted is either _Laetacara thayeri_ or _Laetacara flavilabris_ ... the backwards extension of the midlateral blotch (makes it look like a hockey stick) is a dead give away for the larger _Laetacara_ species. The problem is they look very much alike.

But I think you have the flavilabris for two reasons. Flavilabris = yellow lip. That and he's more elongated than I'd expect a thayeri to be at that size. Thayeri are a taller, more chucky species. I had what I believe were Thayeri once before, but various pics in print and online looked too much like both species, I'm still to this day not sure which I had (there were high bodied so I call them thayeri).

The second photos are one of the smaller _Laetacara_, though not 100% sure on which one, am leaning towards dorsigera though due to the maroon flushing and fin edgings.

The last one seems to be a true acara, genus _Aequidens_ ... I'm leaning towards uniocellatus or one of the look alikes with an outside chance of pallidus or one of it's look alikes. Not as good with the true acara group yet though. How big is that one?


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## spxsk

dwarfpike said:


> *spxsk* - The last one seems to be a true acara, genus _Aequidens_ ... I'm leaning towards uniocellatus or one of the look alikes with an outside chance of pallidus or one of it's look alikes. Not as good with the true acara group yet though. How big is that one?


That fish is about 2.5" long.

Thank you for the input on your feelings. Like you I am vacillating between Thayeri and Flavilsabris. Your arguments for the later ring true and now I am leaning in that direction.

Truly no matter which it is these fish are really different now in my tank compared to the drab brown, with lackluster finnage they were in the store. I truly enjoy the research side of owning fish and discovering more and more about these is fantastic.

Thanks all for the assistance and recommendations, I will continue to discover more I am sure as these fish relax in their new home, and would love continued input on these fish.


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## dwarfpike

That first fish has amazing color. My Thayeri (?) were the same way, nothing but dull brown at the LFS but I recongized the hockey stick extension. Once home they had a beautiful red wine based coloration (another reason I thought they were thayeri over flavilabris).

Also, there are two differant location based color varients of flavilabris to add to the confusion.

I'm with you on the research, love breaking into my library for posts to try and dig up info. I know I have an article on flavilabris, but alas my TFH that has it is in storage.


----------



## spxsk

Well, looking on fishbase I found a link to A. Flavilabris and when you click on the photo the images are spitting image of the top fish. So, I am going to say for the time being, the are A. Flavailabris.

Others in my local fish forum are asking if they were the dirty brown fish in the LFS bottom row. I tell them yes. My guess is they will all be gone next time I am in. LOL Might go see about some others this afternoon.

I believe I have possibly discovered an ID on the bottom fish in my postings to be a Aequidens portalegrensis or Port Acara. I guess the tank everything came out of was a mixed bag catch all!


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## DeadFishFloating

Just a quick update.

Doing my dailey 50% water change on my fry tank and hospital tank before I go to work.

The dorsigera fry are growing well, it's been three weeks since they became free swimming, and they are now taking very small dry food as well as bbs.

The curviceps are responding well in the hospital tank. I am hoping they will be fully recovered by the time the hospital tank will need to converted to a grow out tank.

My dorsigera pair spawned Monday. The female was guarding a pit of wigglers yesterday. Today while doing the water changes I noticed a complete absence of the male. Did a quick search, saw the female still sitting on the pit of wigglers, was very surprised at the size of the spawn. Kept looking for the male. Found him in the other flower pot with his own pit of wigglers only slightly smaller than the females. This is a very big spawn. If history is anything to go by, the fry should become free swimming tomorow.


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## Hubbynz

My female curvicep has spawned for the 2nd time in a month with a massive spawn of approx 80-100 fry. Last time the male ate them within 3 days so on the first day of them free swimming I removed 2/3 of the fry. I returned home today and the fry I removed were all but the ones I left were fine.


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## japes

No dice with my F0 L. dorsigera so far. Got some shots of what I'm quite confident is a female though. I had 2 males on the other side of the tank in quite dark colouration (much moreso than her, but I wouldn't consider it full breeding dress, at least from what I've seen) watching her from a bit of a driftwood tangle, but they were a bit more camera shy than she was.

She has definitely laid claim to this rock, which is in the open section of a tank that I've got half dense/half open - mainly intended for my Eartheaters, and she was having a peck at any juvenile Orange Heads, Corydoras, Whiptails/Bristlenose and Tetra that come too close for her comfort.




























Hopefully they sort out what they're doing


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## Hubbynz

Dang my Curviceps ate the remaining fry again after 7 days of free swimming and then two days later spawned another 100 or so eggs. This time I plan to leave the free swimming fry with the parents for six days before removing them as last time all the ones I removed within one day of free swimming died within a day and the parents would most likely eat them within 7 days.


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## Richled13

Hello all, Iâ€™ve got a pair of laetacara (Iâ€™d venture to say dorsigera, but itâ€™s tough to tell, I might even have one curviceps and one dorsigera) who spawned a few weeks ago. The remaining 7-10 fry are free swimming and now look like miniature versions of their parents, complete with yellowish/gold coloring.

I am really enjoying watching these little guys get bigger and more confident. Itâ€™s really cool!

I have two questions: first, about how long should the fry be permitted to stay with the parents? When I take them out, can I put them in an eclipse 5-gallon hex for a while until I can sell them (noting, of course, that they may be hybrids if I can't figure it out before then) or rehome them?

Second, what kind of bottom dweller/algae consumer would work well with the pair? Hopefully something they will ignore.

It is a 29 gallon tank, with some java moss (of course its always threatening to become a LOT of java moss), fake plants, and a couple rocks and caves. I am going to add a small piece of mopani driftwood as well.


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## RyanR

Unless you want to give them the 100% best chance to breed, BN pleco's are pretty awesome for cleaning up the bottom.

-Ryan


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## DeadFishFloating

G'day *Richled13*,

Mate if you can get a couple of profile (side on) photos of your laetacara a couple of us here would have a reasonable chance of ID'ing them. Out of interrest which sex do you think is curviceps and dorsigera?

As for the fry. I have had success removing the fry to thier own tank on the third day of being free swimming. The longer you can leave them with the parents the better. Are the parents still guarding them? or are they pretty much on thier own and the parents ignore them?

A 5 gallon hex wouldn't be large enough to grow them out to sale-able size. They really shouldn't be sold untill they are about an inch and a half TL, which will be a few months down the track. My 6week old fry are about 2/5 to 1/2 of an inch TL and are in a 7.5 gallon fry tank, very soon they will be moved to a 15 gallon grow out tank.

As for algea eating and/or bottom dwelling mates tank mates. You can't beat bristlenose plecos, but bn's will grow a fair bit larger than laetacara. I have a deal with one of my LFS that I can trade my bn's in when they reach around 3inches for 1inch bn's. Otocinclus are a smaller growing algea eating catfish, though not as effective as bn's. Also think about adding some dwarf corydoras, like the C. hastatus that I have with my dorsigera.


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## Hubbynz

I thought I would post some updates

in non breeding colouration










in breeding colouration....love it


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## japes

Beautiful, the red looks fantastic.

Regarding my Laetacara, my presumed female is still sitting at her rock all day chasing everything off. Any ideas that may induce a pairing? Ever after rearranging the tank she's hanging around the same rock out in the open away from cover. She's what I believe to be the sole female in the tank with 3 other males and they're just not interested.


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## Hubbynz

I found two more older pictures when I first got them last year


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## DeadFishFloating

Ryan have tried a large water change, followed with feeding them bloodworms?

My curviceps have just ruined my plans of moving my fry to the grow out tank, as I've had them in there as a hospital tank. I was going to move the curviceps out on Sunday, clean the tank and transfer the dorsigera fry into the 15 gallon. Except on Tuesday I did a 60% water change and feed them a little bloodworm as a treat. So wednesday I find them sitting on a large group of eggs. And to top it off my dorsigera spawned on Monday and I was hopping to remove thier free swimming fry on Sunday to the fry tank. Man I desperatley need to get that new power point put in so I can set up my other 50gal and fry tank up.


----------



## Richled13

japes said:


> Beautiful, the red looks fantastic.
> 
> Regarding my Laetacara, my presumed female is still sitting at her rock all day chasing everything off. Any ideas that may induce a pairing? Ever after rearranging the tank she's hanging around the same rock out in the open away from cover. She's what I believe to be the sole female in the tank with 3 other males and they're just not interested.


My laetacara spawned soon after they beat up a BA tetra that was put in the tank to get away from his brethren. They spawned on top of a ceramic clay pot. I had also fed them blood worms from time to time.


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## japes

DeadFishFloating said:


> Ryan have tried a large water change, followed with feeding them bloodworms?


Yes, I've tried a series of daily changes with purely a frozen diet of Spiraluna Brine Shrimp, Mysis, Krill and Bloodworms, as well as leaving the tank for a week without change and doing 50-60% with no success.

Will happen eventually. :x


----------



## dwarfpike

How large are the males *japes*? I never had luck in the males being interested until about 3" SL ... though I know they have spawned smaller for others.


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## japes

dwarfpike said:


> How large are the males *japes*? I never had luck in the males being interested until about 3" SL ... though I know they have spawned smaller for others.


They'd be fully grown around the 8cm/3" mark at an approximation. They're from the same import batch as *Peter*'s so they'd be the same size I imagine.


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## japes

Sex me please - I'm pretty sure I've gotten all of these photos sorted correctly. I think I've got 4 females now 

Hard fish to photograph, I've picked shots that are fairly clear and show what you need to see - dorsal fins, overall body shape, etc.

*1:*



















*2:*










*3:*










*4:*



















and I think these last shots are also 4, were taken the night before.





































Thankfully I can work something out with *Peter* to form the pair I'm after, because at this stage I have no breeding activity between specimens, only the darkly coloured presumed female guarding her rock most days of the week.


----------



## DeadFishFloating

Hey *Ryan*,

Just by comparing your 4 dorsigera to my pair, I'd hazard a guess that you have 4 females. They all come from the same import batch, and may very well be siblings, so I would expect the growth and development to be fairly similar, even though your 4 spent 6 months longer in an LFS tank, while mine had a 50 gallon to themselves.

My male has developed quite a significant nauchal bump (I won't say hump as it's nothing like what a male GT develops, :lol: ). Unfortunately I can't get a decent photo of him at the moment.

Here's two (real bad) photo's I took of him today, just before I cleaned thier tank. Unfortunately the hair algea is getting very out of controll in the tank. I think next week I might break the tank down and set it up again after a good clean.


----------



## japes

I'm pretty confident that it's 4 females as well *Peter*, I think I had it in my mind that they were all males after we discussed them before I purchased them, and they're not exactly sex-able in a dimly lit store tank.

None of my fish have an actual dorsal extension, and none of them have been nipped off, they're all slightly pointed but definitely not to the extent of your male after comparing them. The thicker rear half of your males dorsal fin is also something none of my four fish display, regardless of mood.

At this stage it feels like the only possible male I have is the largest of the four, *#1* in the photos above, with the section missing from the dorsal. It's the biggest of the four and seems the most boisterous - not including the courting female when she's protecting her rock.


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## Hubbynz

Japes fish number 2 could possibly be a male with an extended dorsal?? Are they in breeding colouration in the last photos?


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## japes

Hubbynz said:


> Japes fish number 2 could possibly be a male with an extended dorsal?? Are they in breeding colouration in the last photos?


I think the most likely fish to be a male out of the lot is #1. I don't think the dorsal extension on #2 is really any more pointed than any of the other specimens - could just be that shot.

The last photos are what I'm almost 100% is a female (has had tube down before, but still not 100%) and guards her rock in what I can only presume is an attempt to court any possible males in the tank - and none are interested if there is any.


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## klumsyninja

I just added 6 Dorsigera to my 180 and am LOVING them.. this is a great thread too, *** read up to pg 15 so far, lol and just wanted to post that I'm in. 

Gonna go back to reading form pg 15 now...


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## klumsyninja

DFF doesn't that algae drive you crazy? Coming from a planted tank background seeing algae in tanks drives me completely insane!

(A little hydrogen Peroxide in the water would kill it all off and your cichlids would probably pick it all off... Do a search to see how much per gallon as I forget the measurements. I tried it and it works great, it pales and then dies and then the fish either eat it or you can remove it.)

But hey, maybe your down with algae, I know some are.. me, no way. Though I've been letting it develop in my Mbuna tank cause the graze.


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## DeadFishFloating

Hey *klumsyninja*,

Green hair algea growing on logs doesn't bother me at all. I don't mind so much it growing on the flower pots either. I actually like the look. My dwarf corydoras love searching through the hair algea looking for food, and my latest batch of fry having been feeding constantly from in amongst it alot.

But recently it's started to take over my tank, and it's annoying me quite a bit. :roll:


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## klumsyninja

DFF: That's cool.. I guess as time goes on we all develop our own tastes regarding what we like to see in our tanks. If you do get tired of it try the H202 treatment, it worked wonders for me and fast too...

Hey what do you guys feed your little guys? Mine don't seem to be eating NLS or flakes... I saw him feed them Blackworms when I was there (the breeder) but I don't have any of those right now...

What do you think about feeding Blackworms?


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## DeadFishFloating

Hey *klumsyninja*,

Both my laetacara species are very reluctant to eat from the surface. When they do, it's a hit and run action. They target the pellet they want, position themselves a good 8 inches below it, then dash for the top, gulp and dart back down to cover. Dithers feeding at the surface do nothing to make them think feeding at the surface is safe.

My dorsigera fry have no problem feeding at the surface though. It will be interesting to see if thier behaviour changes with time. And they love NLS flake.

I feed NLS flake and a range of Hikari dry foods, micro pellets, micro wafers, cichlid bio-gold mini pellet, and cichlid gold baby pellet. I also feed Hikari frozen bloodworm and spirulina brine shrimp once each per week.

I have enough surface water movement that all but the cichlid bio-gold will get cuaght in a current and sink relatively soon after being dropped in the tank.


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## andrew__

I suspect my Dorsigeras are beginning to pair off... in the most aggressive way possible. I've already lost one and a second is in the hospital tank now. Going to see if I can figure out who the pair is that's attacking everyone else.

One has developed the most stunning orange on the edge of his (?) dorsal with some really nice yellow on the rest of his (?) fins with that usual blue shine all over.

Here's a picture I took a few weeks back when the aggression first showed up. Pic doesn't do him (?) any justice.


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## andrew__

klumsyninja said:


> Hey what do you guys feed your little guys? Mine don't seem to be eating NLS or flakes... I saw him feed them Blackworms when I was there (the breeder) but I don't have any of those right now...
> 
> What do you think about feeding Blackworms?


Mine eat 1mm NLS pellets from the surface aggressively. Being in a tank with other aggressive eaters like my bleeding heart tetras & sev probably helps a lot in that area though! The area of the surface where I feed is fairly still though all pellets start to sink once my sev takes his first surface breaking gulp of pellets.


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## klumsyninja

andrew__ said:


> klumsyninja said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey what do you guys feed your little guys? Mine don't seem to be eating NLS or flakes... I saw him feed them Blackworms when I was there (the breeder) but I don't have any of those right now...
> 
> What do you think about feeding Blackworms?
> 
> 
> 
> Mine eat 1mm NLS pellets from the surface aggressively. Being in a tank with other aggressive eaters like my bleeding heart tetras & sev probably helps a lot in that area though! The area of the surface where I feed is fairly still though all pellets start to sink once my sev takes his first surface breaking gulp of pellets.
Click to expand...

Cool, I can only assume mine will eat more aggressively once they settle in a bit more and get tired of seeing all the food disappear in front of them. Hey you're a fellow T.O.'er.. cool. I'm in etobicoke..


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## Hubbynz

Mine Curviceps have no issues eating but can be a bit skittish except when in breeding mode where they fear nothing.

I am havign a bit of a predicament.....my Curviceps are eating their fry within one week of free swimming...they have done so for the last three spawns in a row. They usually spawn again aqweek after eating them. :-( I have tried removing fry in the past, once on the first day of free swimming and the second on the 5th day of free swiming....on both occassions they fry died with in a day.

This is getting really frustrating as I now have a 60litre fry/juve grow out tank setup that isn't being used.

Any advice/ideas?


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## madzarembski

Hi Hubbynz

May I ask if its both eating the fry or just one parent? If it's one parent, you could divide/separate the tank leaving the fry eating parent on the other side of the divider and the fry with parent who is still in the parental mode. I've done this in the past with other cichlid species.

Madzarembski


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## Hubbynz

I noticed that there were only 25 odd fry yesterday so I removed the male who I had seen eating the fry.....woke up in the morning and there was no fry left today.

:-?


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## DeadFishFloating

G'day *Hubbynz*,

Sorrt to hear about your difficulties with your curviceps.

Are you feeding the fry when they are still fith the parents? Once my fry reached the free swimming stage I started feeding them a mixture of baby brine shrimp and Sera micron powdered food twice a day. I would siphon up bbs from my brine shrimp hatchery into a 20ml syringe, and then mix in a little Sera micron. I attached about 4 inches of air line tubing to the end of the syringe so I could get the food to the fry without upsetting the parents to much.

I removed about 20+ fry from the parents on day 3 of the free swimming stage. I had a sponge filter running in the parents tank for a couple of weeks before they spawned, so I had a seeded sponge filter to place straight into the fry tank. I have a 7.5 gallon fry tank that I siphoned water from the parents tank in to, put in a heater, sponge filter and small air diffusor.

I fed the fry 3 times a day with one syringe full of bbs and Sera micron. Between feedings 2 and 3 I would do a 30% water change, refilling the tank with water straight from the parents tank. After 2 weeks I stopped using water from the parents tank to refill the fry tank after the daily water change, and started using water from my water drum.

Hope that helps, and good luck on the next spawn.


----------



## briansbelle

ok so i am new to south american cichlids. i have mostly mbuna.....

i have a planted tank at the moment that houses 3 GBR's,5 rasboras,6 celebes rainbows,3 panda cories,a clown pleco and 2 BN plecos.

now my question is:

i want to get some juvy laetacara dorsigera. LOVE them Grin
i want to know if it will be ok to house the dorsies with all the tankmates except the blue rams.

so the stocklist would be this:
pair of dorsies(gonna start with 6 juvies-to get a pair)
5 rasboras
6 celebes rainbows
3 cories
1 clown pleco
2 Bn plecos

the tank is a 30 gallon(3 footer) it has a magnum HOT filter and a power head with a pre filter attachment.

i also preform 10 gallon water changes every 2 weeks. its planted with c02 and driftwood.

thanks for any help


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## DeadFishFloating

G'day *briansbelle*,

Does your tank still have the clay pot shards in it? My advice here would be to remove them and add in some more medium sized pieces of driftwood. Your clown pleco will thank for a start as he's a wood eater. You want to have plenty of line of site breaks and hiding spots created by the driftwood and plants.

A pair of dorsigera would be fine in a 30g tank, especially if they are the only cichlids in there. However, the male can be rather aggressive towards the female when he wants to breed and she doesn't.

I would suggest having a gang of 6 cories as they really do better in a small group.

Only problem I have encounted is that my dorsigera dislike my bn plecos. Once juvie bn's reach around the 2.5 to 3 inch size my dorsigera chase them on site. My male dorsigera is a SOB, and I always refer to him as my mini GT. He's a killer, so far I've lost 2 bn plecos, 4 or 5 dwarf cories, and 6 tetras to him over a space of about 2 months. He's fiesty at the best of times, but when he'e guarding eggs or fry he goes into terminator mode.


----------



## briansbelle

thanks for the help.

i have removed the clay pots and replaced them with homemade coconut huts.

i am going this weekend and getting more driftwood, i have one nice piece in there now.... as i will be setting up a bolivian tank soon.

i will try to find more cories, i have a friend who breeds them(that is where i got these 3 from)

i dont have anywhere else to put the plecos(had 3 in my flavus tank and my alpha male killed 2 of them) so i would not be able to remove them right now.

i think i might just get some bolivians for in there for now, until i can setup another tank with out all the tankmates.


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## DeadFishFloating

Hey *briansbelle*,

If your plecos are already over 3 inches, it's unlikely that a dorsigera could do them any real harm. Most of the time the dorsigera are happy to drive off the bn to another part of the tank.


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## briansbelle

my BN are maybe an inch...they are babies.


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## DeadFishFloating

If you're buying juvenile dorsigera to grow out to obtain a bonded pair, I wouldn't to concerned. My bn's take about 2 months to grow from 1 inch to 3 inches, after that thier growth slows right down.

I might just have a dorsigera with a mean streak. My curviceps are the total opposite to my dorsigera, very mellow and a little shy. The male curviceps is about one third larger than the female curviceps and is the subdominant cichlid out of the two.


----------



## briansbelle

thanks DFF!

i plan on buying juvies to grow out, so i should be ok?

i also dont want to lose any of my rainbows, or other fish for that matter.

should i just wait on the dorsies until i can setup another tank for just a pair of them with no tankmates? with this being such a small tank and all?

thanks for the help! i really appreciate it! :wink:


----------



## DeadFishFloating

Thanks to *japes*, I finally have a half decent shot of my juvenile dorsigera.


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## japes

Not one of my greatest shots ever, but it gives you a good idea of what the little terrors look like 

Now I just need some males


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## bernreuther

DeadFishFloating said:


> I've never kept the two species together. I do know some one local, who did. It was supposed to be a short term solution while he re-arranged a couple of his tanks. It didn't go well as the dominant male dorsigera killed a female curviceps.


This was a post back in February (page 15) when I had 7 new curviceps and 3 dorsigera. The remaining dorsigera from the crappy Petsmart batch died, but the two others have been thriving. I think they are both males though. They stay pretty well colored up but never really show off the purple/reddish color that they can get when it's breeding time, plus they don't ever seem to pay attention to each other.[/img]

They do, however, pay attention to the curviceps, I think. Lately the curviceps have been very aggressive with each other, and at least two have died. Two remaining ones are very clearly in bad shape, one who is clamping and is missing some fins, and another who has what looks like a giant red pimple under his jaw.

I suspect that the dorsigera, which both flare a lot and are in perfect condition and larger, might be getting in on the beatings too, but I never actually see it. Plus this would make sense because it's not one pair of curviceps staking a claim to breeding territory. I haven't seen a pair form at all and they just all don't get along.

What's odd is that the curviceps still eat voraciously even now in this bad shape. And it only started about a month ago - before that they seemed fine. It's almost like I created this problem myself by pruning some dying sword leaves and reducing territory. There's still plenty though - they just try to stay front and center no matter what.

Should I separate the dorsigera? That seems like the easiest solution but it doesn't solve the problem of any curviceps on curviceps violence.

And has anyone had any success nursing a beaten up curviceps back to health? The ones that have died haven't ever improved when I hospitalize them. Might be I wait too long to help though. These fish are so little so I'm always a bit scared about medicating them at full doses too.

The guy with the zit:









Dorsigera 1:









Dorsigera 2:








(am I right to assume these are both males?)

Sorry for the poor photos, I just fed them so the crumbs made it tough to focus.


----------



## DeadFishFloating

Hi *bernreuther*,

Sorry to hear about your loses.

I would remove the curviceps asap to a hospital tank. I have had success with using Melafix and daily water changes, when treating for severe fin rot.

As you highlighted with the quote, I do not think it's a good idea to keep the two species together. I have experienced death due to fighting amongst curviceps, but this when two males fought for dominance and a female as a mate. There was no issue for territory, as this was in a lightly stocked, well scaped six foot tank. The tank comfortably held 3 mated pairs, and I would only ever experience issues when there were more males than females.

As sexing your dorsigera, it's very hard. Photo 1 I have no idea, Photo 2 I would guess to be a female due to the shape of the head, roundness of the belly and size of the spot at the base of the dorsal fin.


----------



## madzarembski

Hi Benruther

Sorry to hear of your losses. I was rooting for you to get some fry since Laetacara are generally hard to find around here. Yes, I would hospitalize the hurt fish and definitely try rearranging the decorations if you are going to try and reintroduce him/her.

madzarembski


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## bernreuther

I set up a 6g Eclipse tank on the counter next to the main tank - I figure my girlfriend can't get too upset by it since I put fake plants in it and made it look nice, plus I can move it to my place's bathroom counter or something next week. For now, though, the cat is thrilled at this new development - a little tank right next to her food bowl.

I was able to find and net out four Curviceps, all with some degree of fin damage. One has substantial scale damage and one has the giant tumor under his chin, which seems to have popped today. I dosed melafix and put in a ton of salt. We'll see how it goes. They were still getting right out there in to the mix to eat at feeding time earlier so I know they're still mentally well.

This will also tell me if they're fighting with each other or if the damage was from bullying.


----------



## klumsyninja

Good luck with your little guys, hope they all pull through.

Watch out for that cat! Sly creatures sent from the depths of h3ll to dispense allergens while hiding behind a vail of soft, sweet, and cute.... satans spawn for sure. Don't trust them!


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## briansbelle

ok so change in plans. i just got a 50 gallon 36x15x20 tank. its acrylic so i am not going to be adding any plecos in there :lol:

its empty right now.

i want to get some young dorsies and grow them out to get a pair. once the pair form i will only keep them in there.

now my question is what are good tankmates for a pair of dorsies. my tank is empty and i am open to all suggestions.

thanks a bunch!
belle


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## ryansmith

It's been about a year and a half since I got my wild group of dorsigera. They've colored up and gone into flirting mode a few times but they always stop short of spawning. I decided that maybe the tank was too boisterous for them to settle down and spawn, so I removed their angelfish tankmates and waited.

I didn't have to wait long. Two days later, they spawned in the bottom corner of a bare bottom tank. The male and female have claimed half of the 55 gallon they're in. The other three dorsigera are cowering at the opposite end. Today I have wrigglers.

I'll be moving the pair to a 40 gallon breeder with some sand, driftwood, and silk plants. I think they will be happier there. I'll probably pull this batch of wrigglers and see if I can raise out some nice F1s. 










(The picture is a little dark but I had the tank lights off and used flash. You can see the male sitting right on top of the eggs.)


----------



## DeadFishFloating

nice looking pair *ryansmith*. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

I'd try and waite till the fry have been free swimming for 2 or 3 days before I'd look at pulling any. Just from experience, i've lost all the fry when pulling them as wigglers or on day 1 of being free swimming, but when pulling fry at day 3 they have all survived.

Hopefully Ryan (*japes*) will get a couple of decent photo's of my juveniles when he comes down today. I will be putting them up for sale in 2 weeks or so.


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## madzarembski

Thought I'd resurrect this thread a bit. Here is ta link to the paper describing "Buckelkopf"

https://share.acrobat.com/adc/document. ... 54ab115c00

credit Nuchalman of GCCA for posting link

madzarembski


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## Hubbynz

wow stunning pair.

I lost my female Curvi a couple of weeks back. :-(


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## DeadFishFloating

Just a quick update. My juveniles are close to 6 months old and approximately 2 inches TL. I'm about to sell 6 to a LFS that deals specifically in dwarf cichlids among others.


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## Chromedome52

Hey guys, noticed that this thread was going down the list too fast. I think my avatar expresses my feelings about _Laetacara_! Unfortunately I have none at the moment, but I've bred the three common species - _dorsigera, curviceps_, and _araguaiae _(Buckelkopf) - and got eggs out of _flavipinnis_. I'd like to get all of them back, but especially _flavipinnis _. They were particularly aggressive toward conspecifics, all but one died after the only spawning. I've seen _thayeri_, but never met a live _fulvipinnis_.

DFF, we've met on another forum. Remember the photo of a cherry red _dorsigera_?

Oh, and my signature line is meant tongue in cheek, something my best friend and I used to say to each other whenever we'd catch a mistake. Since he passed away, I use it as a reminder not to be arrogant, a personal flaw that sometimes gets away from me. But that doesn't mean that I don't actually know it all! :lol: :wink:


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## DeadFishFloating

G'day *Chromedome52*,

Welcome aboard. Or should it be, mate time to get back into the saddle. Would love to see some more of your old photo's. Especially if you've kept some wild cuaght specimens.


----------



## dwarfpike

Irony for you ... finally found actual curviceps in a store locally, but they were in a tank that was 'not for sale' as they were looking really bad ... not that I have a tank up anyway.


----------



## Korsaaven

my LFS described this as L. curviceps. however after adding another L. curviceps this Laetacara shown below displayed darker colors and was aggressive to the new addition. Could it be possible that this one shown below isnt a curviceps ? Now I'm thinking about separating the two and place it in my other tank which contains a pair of german blue rams would this be a good idea? If not, ill just bring back one of them to the LFS where I got them.



btw i observed two main differences between the two :

1. the one not shown has one big dark circle on its dorsal fin whereas the one above has 5 small white circles on its dorsal fin.

2. the one in the photo is bigger than the one not shown.

thanks in advance!


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## DeadFishFloating

G'day *Korsaaven*,

Can you take a photo of your curviceps please. The above laetacara is a dorsiger. Iwould move your curviceps in with your rams. The curviceps will handle the higher temperatures better.


----------



## Korsaaven

thanks deadfishfloating for the id :thumb:

here's three pics of the other Laeticara (had to coax him out with freeze-dried tubifex)


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## DeadFishFloating

Definately not a curviceps.

You've got a couple of Dorsigera there mate.


----------



## edburress

Peter... I like the avatar :thumb: How are your fry doing?


----------



## DeadFishFloating

Hey Ed,

Love your Ed Files mate. :thumb: :lol:

The fry aren't fry anymore. They are little over 2 inches now. Really look and behave like young adults now. I've sold 10 and have 12 left. Unfortunately they are not proving to be popular down here. Everyone wants Geo's or African cichlids, or bristlenose plecos, just not much of a demand for dwarf SA cichlids.



















Ed if you have the time, could you make a comment or two in the Indian guys thread of Orange head geos.


----------



## edburress

:lol: :lol: Thanks!

The Laetacara look great, much better than anything we have in my area. Well, Geos are popular for good reasons, but if you could convert the african cichlid fans into dwarf cichlid fans, then you would have it made :lol: I'll take a look at the Geo thread.

Cheers,
Ed


----------



## Korsaaven

again thank you deadfishfloating

the aggression has minimized. the bigger dorsiger isnt chasing the smaller one all around the tank. it only chases it away if it comes into close proximity.

so i guess both are staying in the tank.


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## briansbelle

hey guys,

been awhile but it has been hard locating dorsies :wink:

i went to the local club auction tonite and picked up 3 more dorsies and 6 WC laetacara flavilabris.

i know nothing about the flavilabris :-?

i currently have the 3 dorsies i picked up, and the 6 WC flavs in a 75 gallon with driftwood, they are all still juvies(1.5-2.5inches)

i am wondering if keeping these 2 species together will be ok for a week or so? or if keeping them together for good is ok? not worried about hybrids, dont plan on breeding/selling any fry just want these for my own personal ADDICTION 

going to kinda use the 75 as my quarantine tank.

once the tank is setup and planted i plan on adding some roseline sharks(Puntius Denisonii).
i also plan on adding lots more caves(coconut caves) and lots of low light plants once i find some plants and some sand for the tank.

:dancing: :dancing:

thanks so much 
belle


----------



## Chromedome52

_L. flavilabris_ are very aggressive toward one another, and get much larger than the dwarf _Laetacara _species. I would not risk keeping them together.


----------



## briansbelle

should i move the 3 dorsies out of the 75 and just leave the 6 flavs in there?

i have a planted 50 gallon that i can move the dorsies to, that isnt a problem.

thanks! i def dont want my dorsies getting picked on at all!! they are my favs.


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## Chromedome52

That sounds like a good idea. I would make sure there are lots of hiding places for the non-dominant flavs. Wish I had another shot at that one, I did not expect them to be so much more aggressive than the little _Laetacara_s.

Good Luck!!


----------



## dwarfpike

I agree with the larger _Laetacara_ being much rougher on each other than the smaller ones, at least in my experience with thayeri. It was a very painful lesson.


----------



## briansbelle

i was doing some thinking and i like my dorsigeras more. i want to move 5 dorsies into the 75 and hopefully move a pair of the flavs to my 20 long.

is it ok to keep the flavs in a 20 long as a pair? or should i only keep one flav in the 20 long?

i will let the pair form naturally in the 75 gallon before i decide to move them.

if i can only keep one that is fine by me. 

i just like the colors and cuteness of my dorsies more, so i think a nice group of the dorsies with roseline sharks would be better, plus i dont want to risk the flavs killing my roselines (1 of them is gonna cost me what i paid for 6 WC flavs  )

thanks all!
belle


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## briansbelle

ok change of plans 

i have moved the flavs out of the 75 gallon. i have read they are aggressive to each other as well as other species and i dont want to have a 75 gallon with only 6(if they dont kill each other) fish.

i am not going to keep the flavs, gonna get rid of them. my dorsies are my favs :thumb:

i moved my 5(will be getting one more) dorsies to the 75 gallon along with 11 furcata rainbows, a flying fox algae eater, 4 ottos, and 3 cories.(will up the numbers of the cories to 6, once everyone settles in.)

i ordered my 6 roseline sharks and they should be here tomorrow :dancing:

and i ordered about 30 more plants for the tank. 

i cant wait till this tank is planted and all the fish are in there living happy 

i will post pics as soon as my masterpiece is finished :wink:


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## DeadFishFloating

Well I did the unthinkable today and sold all the dorsigera fry and the parents as well. So no more dorsigera for me.

I still have my curviceps, and may be getting some more next week. But I have the opportunity to get some Dicrossus maculatus, and like the idea of having all Rio Tapajos dwarf cichlids.


----------



## briansbelle

oh wow!!

i don't think i could ever sell my dorsies, i just think they are the greatest little fish 

good luck!!

belle


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## Isis24

I just picked up 3 dorsigera yesterday! I'm thinking of picking up a few more. I definitely want a pair, and if I end up with two, I might keep them both 

I don't know which tank I'm going to keep them in yet. I have a 25G that I could put one pair in, or I can put a pair into my 125 with my rotkeil sev and 6 orange heads. Would they do well in that tank? Also, I have a 50G that will soon house 5 Bolivian rams. Would I be able to keep a pair in with the rams, or would that be too crowded? Footprint is 48x13.

Anyway, here are a couple of pics! They were so pale yesterday, but now I see a hint of pink


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## DeadFishFloating

Well I just bought 3 more curviceps today. I believe these are a different variant to my pair. Pretty sure I have two males and a female. The LFS had four, but I didn't like the condition of the last male. I'll have to buy some new batteries for my camera tomorrow to get some photos of them.


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## Isis24

Congrats on the curviceps! I'll be waiting for those pics :fish:

Why did you get rid of your dorsigera?


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## DeadFishFloating

Hey *Isis24*,

To start, I would keep your dorsigera in the 125g tank untill you find out what thier personalities are like. If you have a mellow pair, you could look at adding them then to the 50g with your bolivians.

I sold my dorsigera becuase I want to be able to keep two species of cichlid in each of my 3 foot, 50 gallon tanks. Right now I have my old pair of curviceps and a trio of apistogramma agassizii in one 50 gallon tank and I'm enjoying the interaction between the two species. My wild cuaght dorsigera pair would kill any other cichlid I added to the tank, whether it was another dorsigera or another dwarf cichlid. They also killed all the dwarf cories I had in the tank, as well as 3 bristlenose catfish. And this is when they weren't spawning.

One of the LFS here will soon be receiving a new shipment that will include some Dicrossus maculatus, and I have a trio set aside for me. So my plans are for the dicrossus and a new pair of agassizii to go in my other 50g tank. Finally I will have a trio of agassizii in my 29 gallon tank, with my spare male curviceps. I like the idea of keep dwarf cichlids that are found together in the Rio Tapajos. When I am able to fit in a larger tank, I plan on a 5x2x2 Rio Tapajos biotope tank with dwarf cichlids, small fancy plecos and tetras.


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## DeadFishFloating

Of course, now I can't find the connection lead for my camera to upload the photos I took today.


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## Isis24

That's too bad that your dorsigera male was intolerant. I'm sure you'll enjoy your dicrossus when you get them though  They're such cool looking fish.

That 5x2x2 sounds like it's going to be a beauty! I find that planning and anticipating a new tank is definitely half the fun of keeping fish.

I hope you find that cord soon so we can see pics of your new curviceps.

As for my plans, I will be picking up a few more dorsigera today for a total of 6. They'll be in the 50 gallon by themselves until I'm sure they're healthy, and maybe even until they pair up. I'd guess that they're about 2.5" TL, so I hope I won't have to wait too long! The 3 that are in there already seem just a teeny bit territorial, and I hope that won't escalate. It's usually just at feeding time though. I have to say though, that they've really charmed me! They're cute, and not shy at all. When I walk over to the tank, they hurry and line up right at the front. So cute!

I'll be adding sand this week and maybe a couple of plants, too. I hope that will make them more comfortable.


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## Chromedome52

Well, I'm expecting. Not normal for a 57 year old man! 

What I'm expecting is a box with 10 _Laetacara araguaiae_!!  Yes, I've had the species before, but these have a location name attached - Cochoeira do Arari - and for all I know could be a different morph than the one I had. I've gotten many fish shipped to me over the years, but for some reason I'm as excited over these as a kid waiting for Santa. :drooling:

I don't even know how big they are yet. As soon as I can get them settled into a tank I'll try to get some photos up. I'm considering using the 125 and keeping all 10 until I can sex out a couple or three pairs. I can add plants and more wood (the _Panaque maccus _have reduced the logs I had in there to some pretty thin pieces).


----------



## DeadFishFloating

Can't waite to see the pictures *Chromedome52*.

I'm thinking of starting up my own garden fertaliser business. A couple of tanks setup with panaque maccus should supply me with a couple pounds of quality _fertaliser_ each week.


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## Chromedome52

The _araguaiae _arrived in good health, except one small one who was doing rolls in the bag. They are small, not much more than an inch. Looks like the old blue and gold form, rather than the Purple gold form I had before. This is fine by me, as I've not kept the blue gold before. It's still the same species.

Due to the small size, I put them in an established long 30, lots of wood, slate, and a couple of flowerpots for hiding. Big clump of Najas at the surface, no rooted plants yet. A few went to hiding places, but several were out exploring immediately, even with me standing there! Mixed some crushed shrimp, egg, and worm flakes together, shook it up in a water bottle and used the nozzle to shoot it down toward them. A couple started eating within seconds. Gee, what a tough fish to keep! :lol:

They are still pretty pale from the trip, I'm going to wait until tomorrow to try and get some shots. The size will make that tricky enough.


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## Isis24

Yes, definitely can't wait to see pics!

I thought I'd post a few pics of the dorsigera I got this week. I just have this hunch that I don't have any females! I have 6. They all behave quite similarly (lots of confrontation). Anyway, I was hoping these pics might help. I can't tell them all apart, so I don't think I was able to get them all in the pics. The numbered fish are the ones that are definitely different fish.

Fish #1: If this isn't a male, I don't know what is! Very aggressive









Fish #2: cute fish. Aggressive sometimes.









Fish #3:









This sort of thing happens often. The one on the right is actually Fish #1. Doesn't look like it, but I promise it's him. 









Fish on the left from previous photo:









Another fish. He's pale because this picture was taken on the day I got the fish:


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## Chromedome52

Well, I finally got some acceptable photos of the wild caught _Laetacara araguaiae_ Cocheira do Arari. (Formerly known as "Buckelkopf", they were named early 2009.) They were shipped as "curviceps", but most _Laetacara _are. I had planned on putting them into a clean long 30, but realized at the last minute that the tank was set up with hard water for livebearers. The breeder pair of _Pelmatochromis buettikoferi _were quickly moved to another tank, and they were now added to an established 30 long, rather than a fresh one. Tossed in a big clump of Najas, just to be safe. This first photo was taken the day they arrived, not more than a couple of hours after I released them into the tank. As you can see, they are not a shy fish! They also took crushed worm and egg flake immediately, eating like little pigs.










I can put my face practically up to the glass, and all they do is back of just a little to the wood pile. Camera gets the same reaction. However, if I run my fingertip along the gravel line at the glass, they come to see if it's edible. They think they're Oscars!

Anyway, 4 or 5 days after they got here, I checked on them only to find ICH!! All of them had several spots. I suspect that I lost a couple more runty fish due to this, but they were already very thin and weak. I cranked up the heater and dosed the tank with Fluke Tabs. It is very effective against all inverts; don't ever dose a tank full of snails, unless you're trying to get rid of them! I've successfully used it for various conditions in the past, and as the next two shots show, it worked this time, too!



















The remaining 8 are quite robust and active. This is definitely the more typical blue/gold version of the species. I've had the purple/gold version (see my avatar!), which comes from a different part of the Araguaia basin. I love _Laetacara_!


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## gage

Great looking Laetacara everyone!

Chromedome, the _Laetacara araguaiae_ look great :drooling: , definitely update once they grow a tad bit/when they color up


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## Isis24

Just thought I'd post a pic of one of my dorsigera. I swapped out a couple of the fish for what I thought might be females, and I just KNOW I have males and females in there. My hunch is that I have 5 males and 2 females. They're about 2.5" now. Can't they hurry up!? How long is this supposed to take?

Anyway, here's the picture. I think it's a good one, but too bad it shows off my bristlenose poo!


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## DeadFishFloating

That's a great looking male there *Isis24*. :thumb:

They'll take as long as they want. Mine had paired up at the LFS when they were about 2.5 inches TL, and were fully grown at 3inches TL


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## Isis24

Thanks for the compliment DFF! He is quite handsome.

I'm starting to get really frustrated. It has been two months now, and still no sign of pairing. I'm starting to wonder if I have any females at all. What do you think?

I can't keep 7 males forever... There's nothing I want more than to breed my fish! Ever since my Bolivian batch 8 months ago...no new baby cichlids! At some point, I'm going to have to do something about the situation


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## DeadFishFloating

Without seeing pictures of all seven dorsigera, I couldn't even guestimate on what gender each fish is *Isis24*.

A friend of mine bought four, and ended up with four females. :lol:

I'd stay on the lookout for more in your LFS, and offer to trade five adults for five juvenile dorsigera when you find some. Keep the best two looking dorsigera.


----------



## da bear

Just got four Curviceps myself. They are very little, bout an inch and a half, but they will grow.

They show a little blue and a lot of yellow now. They school with some VERY little keyholes, about a half inch, I got at the same time. I'll see if I can get pics.


----------



## peathenster

mine


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## DeadFishFloating

Some nice looking Laetacara photos guys.

Currently I have two mated pairs of L. sp. "Bolivien". One pair in a 2x1x1 breeding tank, while the other pair is in my planted tank with a trio of Apistogramma erythrura (ex Apistogramma sp. 'Rio MamorÃƒÂ©').

I don't have any decent photos at the moment, but when my breeding setup is up and running to my satifaction, I'll endevour to get some decent photos of my Laeatacara and Apistogramma species.

Currently I have my LFS trying to source some Laetacara dorsigera "Argentinien".


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## Chromedome52

peathenster, those are some nice _L. thayeri_. Or _L. flavilabris_, I'm still having a hard time figuring out which is which. There's been a lot of confusion between the two over the last couple of decades. If I go by the photos in Romer's book your fish is the first, but a lot of other "experts" seem to think Romer's photos are backwards.

Either way, I've had the fish that you've got, so I'll give you some fair warning. Your fish are still young, these two species can get almost 5 inches. They are very rough on each other when they get around 3 inches. Mine went psycho overnight; the #2 fish killed the dominant fish, then proceeded to beat the daylights out of three of the other 4. This was in a long 30 with a lot of wood, rocks, and plants, which that one and one other tore up in order to spawn. Then someone ate the spawn, the dominant fish killed his mate and I had already removed two of the others and sold them. Naturally the last one was another male, and the two of them just sat there and fought constantly.

But maybe I just had one of those psycho individuals. Maybe some tough dither fish will distract them, I kept mine in a single species setup - that may have been my mistake. I hope you have better luck! :thumb:


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## dwarfpike

*DFF* - Deffinately get pics of the Bolivians up, they mix the best colorations of both curviceps and dorsigera ...

*Chromedome52* - You aren't the only one that had a psycho male thayeri ... mine decided to kill the female, all my dwarf pikes, and all my zebra plecos one day while I was at work. I've been told by Laetacara experts that I had an unusual male, but the more I read about peoples' experience with them, the more tales like yours and mine I read about.


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## peathenster

Chromedome52 said:


> peathenster, those are some nice _L. thayeri_. Or _L. flavilabris_, I'm still having a hard time figuring out which is which. There's been a lot of confusion between the two over the last couple of decades. If I go by the photos in Romer's book your fish is the first, but a lot of other "experts" seem to think Romer's photos are backwards.
> 
> Either way, I've had the fish that you've got, so I'll give you some fair warning. Your fish are still young, these two species can get almost 5 inches. They are very rough on each other when they get around 3 inches. Mine went psycho overnight; the #2 fish killed the dominant fish, then proceeded to beat the daylights out of three of the other 4. This was in a long 30 with a lot of wood, rocks, and plants, which that one and one other tore up in order to spawn. Then someone ate the spawn, the dominant fish killed his mate and I had already removed two of the others and sold them. Naturally the last one was another male, and the two of them just sat there and fought constantly.
> 
> But maybe I just had one of those psycho individuals. Maybe some tough dither fish will distract them, I kept mine in a single species setup - that may have been my mistake. I hope you have better luck! :thumb:


Thanks! I think they are _L. thayeri_ (a friend collected them in Peru). They are in a 90 with 4 young M. festivus. The male took about 1/3 of the tank but didn't care about the other fish as long as they stayed off his territory. I recently added a pair of an adult pair of H. rotkiel that I hope would be peacekeepers. Will definitely keep a close eye on them!

Peter


----------



## da bear

My Curviceps, tho I am suspecting they are actually dorsigea, have darkened up and have started defending a rock.

They are only two inches, but I thnk it is a mating on the way.

They are in a 100 and they have NLS grow feed, with weekly 75% water changes.


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## da bear

As expected, they did not succeed but a couple of days.

Maybe in a couple of weeks they will try again.


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## DeadFishFloating

Feed them well, and in 10 to 14 days they should try again.


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## DeadFishFloating

Laetacara sp. "Bolivien"


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## Isis24

Ohhhhhh!! SO cute! Congrats! I love that picture, too!


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## padlock 08

just to let every1 know,i'm hoping to become a member of this club soon, looking to get some dorsigera for my 15g parana river biotope     they'll then be moved to a 20" cube when construction is finished :fish: :fish:


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## da bear

Good news, bad news. The pair is starting to show breeding behavior, great.

bad: all the others are males, both of them, um, the one still alive.


----------



## peathenster

So are Laetacara (thayeri specifically) regular substrate spawners? On rocks, driftwood, etc?


----------



## dwarfpike

Yup peathenster, the nasty buggers breed just liike the rest of the genus. I had eggs once on a smooth river rock, but they were eaten. Never got a second chance though. :x


----------



## peathenster

dwarfpike said:


> Yup peathenster, the nasty buggers breed just liike the rest of the genus. I had eggs once on a smooth river rock, but they were eaten. Never got a second chance though. :x


Thanks. Grey has them now if you miss them


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## dwarfpike

Really? Hmmmm ... might need to find a cheap used tank so they can have some proper tank mates this time ... like some dovii. :lol:


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## peathenster

well I offered leaves, rocks and a flower pot on its side, and they picked the lower half of the flower pot. Both parents are guarding eggs now


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## Boupette

I'm looking to get some Laetacara araguaiae/buckelkopf here in QuÃƒÂ©bec, Canada... Sorry if I not in the right post.


----------



## Aquaticopia

Greetings C-F, I've landed on this forum many times before in looking for answers, but it's time to post :wink:! I have been looking for some Laetacara curviceps or dorsigera for a while, but never see them in the various LFS in my area. The other day I made my first visit to a shop I've never seen, and found 4 fish labeled "Curviceps" (no genus or common name, odd eh?). I watched them for about 10 minutes to see if I can sex them, but forgot any specific gender indicators. I ended up looking at dorsal/anal fin points, size, and color and found what looked (only based on dorsal points, not very accurate) like 2 males and 2 females, with each sex having 1 large and 1 smaller. The relative size difference was about 1/4.

When I asked at the counter if they could bag me a pair, the employee confidently said, "There are no pairs. Those are all females." I responded, "You'd probably know better than me, but are you sure? There's some size/fin differences." To which she replied, "I can bag them for you if you like, but they are definitely all female."
So, I went ahead and studied their behavior for about an hour, and noticed that the two slightly larger fish would 'bully' (a short chase) the two slightly smaller, but showed no threatening behavior towards each other. These two larger 'curviceps' were indifferent towards each other and were differently colored (mood/gender/heirarchy?). Also, one of the two larger fish had a pointed dorsal, while the other had a squared/rounded tip. The smaller two were both in a darker color than the larger two, I'm assuming as a result of their being chased.
I ended up getting the two larger, hoping they were paired (explaining the aggression towards the other two but not eachother). Now I've done quite a bit of digging on the web and landed here. I still can't really tell the difference between dorsigera and curviceps, nor can I tell their sex. Although I've read many threads, I'm hoping a conversation here could help me clear up some questions...If they were L. curviceps, only the female would show the dorsal spot (in non-breeding dress)? If they have a thin dorsal trim of red coloration from beginning to end, they are L. dorsigera? If they are L. dorsigera, then both male and female will display the dorsal spot, regardless of breeding dress?
From the pictures I took, I see red trim around the dorsal spot, yellow fins with red accents, pink/red hue below the lateral line, pink hue at caudal peduncle, iridescent green/blue scales below LL as well as accenting most fins. I'm going to go ahead and say Laetacara dorsigera, based on the red trim along the dorsal. Can anyone confirm this? Also, is it possible to sex them from these photos and at their size (~2"-2.25" total length)?
After finals this week, I plan to put in appropriate substrate, plants, and wood. I fed them some gammarus/scuds and they chased them all over the tank, it was quite entertaining! Many, many thanks - I greatly appreciate this thread!

Regards,
Craig Standefer


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## Aquaticopia

I'm guessing "Fish 1" is female (more compressed body, rounded dorsal fin) and "Fish 2" is male (more elongated body, pointed dorsal fin), though this is my uneducated guess. Thanks again for any input.
*Fish 1:* Likes being photographed...
































*(Fish 1 I think)*








*Fish 2:* More of a hider...


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## DeadFishFloating

They look like dorsigera to me. Could very well be a male and female.


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## Aquaticopia

thanks for the reply/educated ID-guess, DeadFish. I suppose that only time will tell. I am still contemplating picking up the other 2 just in case...I can always separate them if/when things start to go wrong. Is $5 a fish a steal or are these fish normally this cheap (in comparison to some of their relatives)?


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## DeadFishFloating

As for ID, my main issue was if they are L. dorsigera or L. araguaia. They're definately not curviceps. Though I do think the fish #1 is female and fish #2 is male.

Curviceps do not have the lateral banding that is seen on the rear half of these fish, that is a dorsigera trait. Nor do curviceps exhibit the red/purple throat that can be seen on both these fish in the photos, that is another dorsigera trait.

However there's something about the "pair" that look a little like some of the photos of laetacara araguaia I have seen. Still, they look like a very colourfull "pair" of dorsigera. For $5 a fish, I would definately go back and grab the other two.


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## Aquaticopia

Great stuff DFF, I think I made an error in thinking males have the elongated body vs. female. I've just read elsewhere that the male will have the compression and be "taller", so to speak. The L. araguaia (previously Laetacara sp. "Buckelkopf"?), from what I see on the web, shows a dark diagonal (almost vertical) line on the gill plate, which my fish lack. Of course, I do not believe they are fully grown, but I'd think they are mature enough to show. In any event, they probably need a little more time to adjust to the tank - especially as I've not added my plants/substrates yet. I'll definitely head back to that shop and see if I can't get their last 2, then let them know what I've found here (post-purchase, of course!) so they might hopefully label more carefully. I'll post more pics in a week/month or if anything changes. Thanks again!

Regards,
Craig Standefer


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## Chromedome52

_Laetacara araguaiae _is the fish in my avatar. (I just realized it's a bit small to see easily.)Your fish look like a pair of _dorsigera _to me. The quickest identifier for Buckelkopf are the 2-3 short dark lines below the lateral band. These do not appear on any other species of _Laetacara_. The red color in the breast is also more like dorsigera than the bluish purple of _araguaiae_.

I would have gotten all four righ away, too, as these fish can sometimes be aggressive toward their own kind, especially if the female isn't ready when the male is. Better to have others to spread that around. It can also help a pair form up to defend a territory against the others.


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## dwarfpike

Since I finally got my account sorted out and can log in again ... I thought I'd add to the best thread this site has yet to see.

Sadly didn't notice them until in the middle of a water change. The female _L. araguaiae_ had been displaying for the last few days ... but the male wasn't responding at all. So this was a quite a surprise.


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## Laetacharacter

Hi All,

New here. I've been a fan of the genus for some years. Just found you guys and also just acquired a new batch of 8 Laetacara araguaiae--well most are. When I opened the box and pulled out the bag I saw a couple of dorsal spots. Those two fish turn out to be L. dorsigera. That's fine. They're very young--about an inch and a quarter long. All of both species doing fine and surveying their new 75 gallon environs. The araguaiae appear to be the purple variety. Just wanted to share that I've fed the addiction.


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## dwarfpike

Very nice!!! I think I like the purples better, but I haven't kept the blues yet. I'd like to end up with both eventually. They are definitely my favorite _Laetacara_ I've kept thus far.

My breeding pair:


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## Laetacharacter

There are some blues on aquabid as we speak. The auction ends tonight, if you're interested. I haven't kept the blues either. My youngsters are just beginning to show flashes of color. Yours are spectacular. I hope my juves come close to that at maturity.

The two dorsigera in the shipment are a bit more mature and have begun coloring up. They are the 'black' form. Never had this color form before either.


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## dwarfpike

Thank you.

Yes, I saw them. If I had another tank available, I'd snag them. They turn very dark when in brood coloration. That tiny female even attacked me when I added plants to the tank last night. :lol:

Can't say I've seen the black morph of dorsigera, I'd be interested in seeing pics when they get bigger.


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## Mr Chromedome

dwarfpike, your fish _are_ the Blue-Gold form. The Purple form is called that due to the red color in the back part of the body. Below is my male Purple form from several years ago:










The Purple form was available for a few years, haven't seen this form in some time, not sure why people are mistaking the two. The last batch of _araquaiae_ I got from Rapps was also Blue-Gold, from a specific location (which I have written down elsewhere, can't remember off the top of my head). Unfortunately, as often happens with wild _Laetacara_, they were extremely aggressive with one another. I ended up with what I thought could be a pair, but had no luck in getting them to breed.


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## dwarfpike

Wait, so the blue form has a base purple coloration and the purple form has a base red? :?

So the blues with the base purple/copper coloration like mine are just likely a different location/river system than the true blue/gold variety? Because mine look nothing like the first pictures I had seen of this species at all, ie:









Mine are never missing the purple base coloration, even under a flash. And no gold at all, only that burnished copper color like the top half of the fish above.

I guess browsing through the google images, I see three different varieties not even counting your purple/red one you posted. I wonder if we are just getting in various river system populations (I know in the formal description they are listed as being an Araguaia endemic, but it's been confirmed by Kullander caught it in the Xingu and Stawikowski in the Tapajos and Tocantins (that one makes sense, since the Araguaia is a tributary to it - info via Mike Wise from emails from the former two).

Yours almost looks more like a curviceps in coloration, though of course it's not with the downward turn of the bar.

I'm thoroughly confused now.


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## Laetacharacter

Whoa, now I'm confused as well. I, like you, dwarfpike, thought the 'suephoto' variant was the blue form which looks nothing like the purple-based hue of the fish you and I have.


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## dwarfpike

I think it's because no photos like *Chromedome*'s variant pop up under a search, so we saw a purple fish and assumed it was the purple version. Darn assuming.


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## Laetacharacter

Fair enough, but what about the gold and blue palette of one variant, witness the fish on aquabid, versus the purple and black palette of our fish. Even if the 'true' purple fish is some other variant, there are still two other *very* differently colored forms of L. araguaiae out there right now and examples of both forms are all over the internet as well. As you noted, what you and I have been calling the purple form never assumes the gold coloration of the fish we had been calling the blue form. Where that form is gold, ours are black.


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## Mr Chromedome

When kept over a darker substrate, the fish show the markings as dark, but if you put your fish over a white sand substrate, it would eventually change to the same colors as the suephoto fish. If you shine a light at an angle across the dark markings, you should be able to see the gold overlay. However, there are numerous populations, and there certainly is notable variation between them. The Purple variation may be a different (undescribed) species altogether, but it has all the classic characteristics of _araguaiae_. I wish I still had all the photos I took when they were breeding, but a computer crash took most of them (I shot them with my first digital camera). That one shot I had posted in a couple of forums online, and was able to recover it.

To be honest, I don't see purple when I look at the photo of dwarfpike's fish. I see a very pale blue color, which is the same as the suephoto fish, but with a darker background color due to the black substrate. This may give an impression of lavender or a pale purple.


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## dwarfpike

Interesting thought. I had planned on putting a _Pelvicachromis_ species in that tank, hence the black sand. When I upgrade their tank (I have to rearrange all the driftwood once they lose the fry, the male gets relentless ... so they will get either a 33 long or 40 breeder), I will be going to the more standard light colored sand. Will be interesting to see if they shift their color from purple/copper to blue/gold. They certainly wouldn't be the first cichlids to go through a huge color change. They are definitely purple in person *Chromedome*, the only blue is the spangling, with no gold spangling at all unlike the suephoto. They do turn almost a solid black when in brood coloration over the black sand.

I wouldn't be surprised if your purple form does become a sister species, they have just recently cut off and described on of the curviceps color forms. So now our beloved Laetacara now has 7 species.


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## Laetacharacter

Thanks, both of you. I have a 30g with light-colored substrate that I was thinking of using to house the first pair that hooks up. Assuming this is the explanation, I'm glad I didn't flip for the $127 for the aquabid fish thinking I was getting 'the other' color form!

dwarfpike: when you reference the recent elevation of a curviceps population to species, I assume you mean L. flamannellus? When I read the paper and saw the pictures, I had the same thought. Yes, there's the issue of some ctenoid scales on the peduncle, but otherwise they look like curviceps with some gold on the dorsal. I was thinking that there's far more color variation among L. dorsigera and L. araguaiae so I suspect the splitters will be having a field day.

Regarding the 'black' dorsigera: I believe there are photos somewhere on the 27 pages of this thread provided by deadfishfloating. Instead of red or purple on the undercarriage it's black with some green iridescence when the light catches it. Somewhere I read there was a captive bred European 'strain' so colored but these are wild fish that came in with the L. araguaiae. I'll take some pics when the grow up a bit.


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## dwarfpike

Yesh, I believe it was flamannellus. Visually I'd call it a curviceps, but there are some bone differences in addition to the scale difference.

Mine were listed as wild from Wetspot when I got them as well.

I'd love to see the pics of yours once you move them to that lighter colored tank, mine are stuck over dark for a while yet.


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## Laetacharacter

Oh, I'm eager to see the difference myself. I'll take photos.

I did check pictures on the net and vids on youtube. In most cases the substrate color appears to be a factor, but not all. For instance, look at the fish on page one of this thread.


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## Laetacharacter

Another batch of L. araguaiae are up on aquabid drawing heavy bidding and they're already up to $200 for 8 pieces. Good for the seller, but ...yikes!


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## dwarfpike

Wow, when Wetspot had them it was like $30 for six of them.


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## Laetacharacter

The auction just ended and after heavy bidding they went for $252.34 for 8 pieces.


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## dmoore

**** - I gave my breeding pair of L.Araguaiae away for free


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## Laetacharacter

Well, now the parents of the above juves just sold for $105 for four two pairs. Meanwhile, an on-line supplier has them listed for $6 a piece. That's about what I paid a while back.


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## royalplanted

http://s1028.photobucket.com/user/Roy_Dahlquist/media/IMAG0382_zpseprpjvx4.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
I just purchased my 1st pair of Laetacara. Sold as Curviceps. By reading this I now believe they are Dorsigera. I just received them 3 days ago. Doing well. This is the female. All of sudden she became much darker and is viciously attacking larger male. Not bothering other fish. Is it the fact she is not taking to him(Understand they may not be pair and it may take time to accept each other) or may she already be fertilized(maybe not from him?). Any help with type and info on behavior would be appreciated. Definitely see a lot of love and knowledge on Laetacaras on this thread. Thank You.


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## royalplanted

http://s1028.photobucket.com/user/Roy_Dahlquist/media/IMAG0398_zpsjtp3rwk5.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
This is the male from the subject above.


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## viejo

Yes, it is dorsigera- (Sensu lato as mentioned above, lol). I tend to be a 'lumper' myself.


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## royalplanted

viejo said:


> Yes, it is dorsigera- (Sensu lato as mentioned above, lol). I tend to be a 'lumper' myself.


Thank You. Figured so.


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