# EBJD........ genetics ???



## JKnPA (Jan 30, 2012)

Are they hybrids or variants ? I spent the last few days researching this subject, but I didn't find a conclusive answer. I checked several different sources to get different view points on the question.
1. Has this issue ever been resolved, or is the verdict still out ? 
2. What is a 'blue gene J.D. Does it look like a regular J.D. , but carries the gene to produce a possible 'EBJD' ? 
Ex: Bb.
3. Does an 'EBJD' carry both 'recessive genes' ...... ex; bb, as opposed to BB, or Bb 
John


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## montellp (Jun 9, 2012)

a blue gene looks like a regular jd but carrys the blue gene i think there colors look more vibrant u cant breed to electric blue jds to get electric blue babys people usually breed blue gene with elctric blues to get the 50 50 electric and blue gene babbys


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## Azedenkae (Apr 19, 2012)

1.) Electric blue jack dempsey is just a variant of the normal jack dempsey. Think of the electric blue like albinism.
2.) Yes, a blue gene jack dempsey looks exactly like a jack dempsey, just that it carries the electric blue gene. Like albinism. ex. Bb.
3.) Yes, the EBJD carries both recessive genes, ex. bb.

Note that EBJD x EBJD does not produce any viable fry. Any other combination of JD, BGJD and EBJD can.


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## JKnPA (Jan 30, 2012)

OK...... that agrees with most of the articles I have read. 
Do they know why the fry from EBJD x EBJD are not viable ? 
Thank you...


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## mabirchell (Jul 10, 2012)

to many resesive genes


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## JKnPA (Jan 30, 2012)

mabirchell said:


> to many resesive genes


 Even if you mean * too many recessive* *genes* , I don't get your point !


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## Azedenkae (Apr 19, 2012)

JKnPA said:


> Even if you mean * too many recessive* *genes* , I don't get your point !


That's the most common explanation given by fish keepers which as you probably realize, does not make the least bit of sense. XD

Honestly people, recessive genes does not auto equal bad. Anyways that's besides the point.

No one has really found out why this is the case, and no one has tested if there's problems relating to female or male EBJDs or whatever. @[email protected] So yeah, it's a mystery.


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## JKnPA (Jan 30, 2012)

Azedenkae said:


> JKnPA said:
> 
> 
> > Even if you mean * too many recessive* *genes* , I don't get your point !
> ...


 Az,
Thank you.............
I read at another website that someone had 'free swimminmg' fry that lived for about 10 days. So the fry did hatch and were alive for that period of time.
I wonder if it has something to do with ' Mitochondria DNA, and the processing of food !!!
Any thoughts on that idea ?


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## Azedenkae (Apr 19, 2012)

Yep, hence my mentioning of fries. Basically the fry stage survives for a while, but they always die off in the end. All of them.

And yeah, there's a lot of possibilities as to why EBJD x EBJD doesn't work. Obviously it has something to do with the EB gene, and most likely has something to do with either or both of the male and female reproductive systems, something that causes problems when producing EBJD fries from EBJDs. I first thought that it could be a pure maternal problem, something to do with her reproductive system not working properly, but it seems that f/m EBJDs still breeds with m SGJDs just fine, so probably not that. Potentially the EB gene is linked to a specific developmental characteristic in both male and females, which when lacking in both will produce weak progeny. Probably.


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## JKnPA (Jan 30, 2012)

Az,
Very Good................ =D> 
I told my LFS guy to work on a Solution............... LOL.
Best wishes,
John


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## Storiwyr (Apr 24, 2012)

My background is in microbiology, a hefty portion of which involves genetics. I can look into this if you're really interested in the genetic explanation on a chromosomal levela and see if it's known. This kind of problem is not unknown (or even uncommon) in captive breeding programs. Examples would be the 'lethal white' gene in horses, the hairless gene in Chinese Crested dogs and double-merle fatalities in Australian Shepherds.

My guess is that it's enzymatic ... meaning, say you need a given enzyme to detoxify something that is found in the food you eat. The fry lack that enzyme, and every time they eat, the toxin builds up a little more until it finally kills them. Parent EBJD would have ONE functional copy of that enzyme gene from THEIR parent BJD/JD, but one nonfunctional one from the EBJD/BJD parent. When you breed an EBJD to an EBJD, they wind up with two nonfunctional copies, can produce no enzyme, and thus die of toxicity.


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## JKnPA (Jan 30, 2012)

I sent you a PM...............


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## s_abhay2001 (Feb 4, 2013)

I am not very convinced with the explaination of detoxifying enzyme.
If the EBJD progeny is heterzygus WRT this gene, then at least 50% and ideally 75% of their offsprings must survive.
I am also interested in digging out the correct reason for this non-survival.
Has it something to do with the immuity?


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## s_abhay2001 (Feb 4, 2013)

Sorry for the incomplete post.
But I could NOT edit the same, so re-sending the complete one.
Thanks

I am not very convinced with the explanation of detoxifying enzyme.
If the EBJD progeny is hetero-zygote WRT this gene, then at least 50% and ideally 75% of their offspring must survive.
I am also interested in digging out the correct reason for this non-survival.
Has it something to do with the immunity?

If we have some statistical data on % survival of EBJD fry of EBJD X BGJD and EBJD X normal JD cross, it will be easy to dig out the reason(s).
Does anybody have some such data?
I am initiating all the three line breeding experiments.
My first thought/ assumption about EBJD X EBJD cross is that the fry will be physiologically weaker. May not be able to fight diseases and assimilate nutrients in the early days of life.

I have some microbiology and genetics background (PhD in molecular biology), and want to give a serious try to solve this riddle.


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## JKnPA (Jan 30, 2012)

My first thought/ assumption about EBJD X EBJD cross is that the fry will be physiologically weaker. May not be able to fight diseases and assimilate nutrients in the early days of life.
.............................................................................................................
I think that is the general " concensus of opinion" that I have read elsewhere! 
I will have to reread some of the earlier articles I saw to refresh my mind.
Question: How do you get an accurate rate of survival on " newly born fry" ? They are so small and may have large numbers per brood. I don't see how you could possibly get any mathematical data !


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## Captain AP (Jan 12, 2013)

Whatever you guys find out, please do not keep it a secret. I would LOVE to find out the answer. EBJD have always had a special place in my fishy heart.


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## s_abhay2001 (Feb 4, 2013)

I strongly trust that EBJD is not a lethal genotype, and somehow EBJD X EBJD should be able to survive. So I did some research about the lethal genes, in particular homozygous recessive, mitochondrial DNA etc. and got convinced that my assumption may be correct.
The fact is that EBJD does not grow fast, and to the maximum possible size of EBJD, fry are weak. So we must consider 2 hormones in fish that are responsible for growth. One is somatolactin.
This is responsible for energy metabolism, osmotic balance, Na, K, Ca, PO4 uptake, immune functions and most importantly deposition of the pigment in the skin.
This may be required in large quantity at early growth stage by the fish for pigment deposition and hence may not be available for the other functions.
Thus individual will try to overproduce the hormone, or death may occur because of the imbalance in the said functions of somatolactin.
Whenever, somatolactin in blood of fish is in high concentration, GH - the second growth hormone is in low concentration. This is nature's law.
Now this second growth hormone called GH is responsible for hunger or capacity of the food intake.
So low intake of food means either starvation leading to death (in extreme case) OR slow growth (weak fry).
This puzzle can also be explained with the help of principles of Ayurveda - the Indian traditional medicine. Ayurveda says that electric blue colour correlates with the principle of constant expansion (like gas); and such a principle can not normally form organized structures or physical forms like animal bodies. According to Ayurveda this is the reason why EBJD cant survive. I am also planning to use the Ayurvedic solution(s) to solve this problem of EBJD survival.
I have a couple of EBJD pairs to try out EBJD X EBJD. If anybody can share some experience, it would be a great help.

Thanks in advance.

Abhay Shendye


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## JKnPA (Jan 30, 2012)

Abhay,
Very Informative........ :thumb: 
Thank you for taking the time to explain what the cause of the problem most likely is.
I see there have been some papers written on the subject of 'Somatolactin' and 'GH'. 
This looks like a problem that would need a lot of Time & Money to research..... :roll: 
Best wishes,


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