# Sump Pump RecommendationÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ Please Help.



## Agridion (Sep 8, 2010)

I am setting up a 185 gallon tank (I thought it was 200 when I purchased it). I put in a 1,500 Glass-Holes overflow box in the back left corner of my tank. http://www.glass-holes.com/1500-gph-complete-kit-gh1500kit.htm. Currently I also have a 40 gallon breeder tank that I plan on setting up for a sump. From the bottom of my sump to the top of my tank is roughly 5 to 5.5 feet. I also plan on having around 2 elbows in the return piping. What kind of pump and model number do you reccomend?

I am also putting in two Koralia Magnum #6's in each side back corner for additional circulation but I would also like a sump pump that circulates my tank enough if both of the K's were off.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

You might consider a Danner Mag24. Should be able to satisify that overflow.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Ideally, you want 1200-1300 GPH @ 6 ft of head pressure.

You could also consider multiple pumps that equal that volume for the sake of redundancy.

I prefer the latter.


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## iwade4fish (Jan 5, 2009)

i second the above!


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## Agridion (Sep 8, 2010)

Fox said:


> You might consider a Danner Mag24. Should be able to satisify that overflow.


I will check out the Mag's. Are they reliable, do they have a low power consumption per gph and are they quite?



cantrell00 said:


> Ideally, you want 1200-1300 GPH @ 6 ft of head pressure.
> You could also consider multiple pumps that equal that volume for the sake of redundancy.
> I prefer the latter.


cantrell00 would I hook up the two pumps in parallel connecting to the same discharge piping or run up two different headers? I would prefer the first. Why do I need two pumps instead of just one? I will have an overflow on my sump to a drain so I am not worried about it overflowing and my tank will have two K6 Magnums in the tank for circulation.

Ok so if I want 1,200 gph with a 6' head possibly two pumps what is a good pump manufacture, that isn't overly expensive, runs relatively quiet and has a low power consumption? I know I am asking for a lot.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

I have found the danner mags to be quite reliable and for the most part quiet or at the least just as quiet as many similar pumps. If you want silence look at the Eheim 1262 though you might need two. A mag18 might be just a tad short of your overflows but will work just fine while a mag24 might be just a bit over

Not a fan of using two pumps. You could prolly get by just fine with a Mag18 at 5' head gives around 1200 gph and uses 145W. If you were to use two mag9's at 5' head you would get around 1500 gph while using 186W. that is an increase of 25% W of heat added to the system and twice the vibrations/ noise. I would use the mag18 in this instance.


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## Agridion (Sep 8, 2010)

fox said:


> I have found the danner mags to be quite reliable and for the most part quiet or at the least just as quiet as many similar pumps. If you want silence look at the Eheim 1262 though you might need two. A mag18 might be just a tad short of your overflows but will work just fine while a mag24 might be just a bit over
> 
> Not a fan of using two pumps. You could prolly get by just fine with a Mag18 at 5' head gives around 1200 gph and uses 145W. If you were to use two mag9's at 5' head you would get around 1500 gph while using 186W. that is an increase of 25% W of heat added to the system and twice the vibrations/ noise. I would use the mag18 in this instance.


145W wow those consume a bunch of power compared to the Koralia's. I know they have to pump water up 6' but that just seems like a lot to me. (I'm still relatively new to setting up a big tank and sump). What does the Mag 24 consume? I could always throttle back the 24 with a ball valve.

As far as creating heat in the sump I would be fine with my pump(s) creating some excess heat that just means the heaters wouldn't have to work as hard. Living in Illinois it gets pretty cold during the winter and my heaters have to run most of the time (in my current tanks).


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

Its not the winters where that heat is a concern. You might find a condition where in the warmer months you will have the heaters unplugged and a tank temp in the mid 80Ã‚Â°'s or higher.

All my lights & heat are off in our larger tanks during the daytime and they are at 84Ã‚Â° now.

The mag24 uses 265W.


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## Agridion (Sep 8, 2010)

fox said:


> Its not the winters where that heat is a concern. You might find a condition where in the warmer months you will have the heaters unplugged and a tank temp in the mid 80Ã‚Â°'s or higher.


Hmmm.... Once you decide to enter the wormhole of big tanks, you've no idea what you've gotten yourself into... So many choices. This is going to take me a while to determine what I should do. So will one pump a mag 24 or 18 heat up my tank to much?


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

Use two mag9.5's or one mag18 as option A.

Use the mag24 and tee off it to drive the RFUGJ as optionB and you should be ok.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Agridiron...

You are worrying yourself too much. Shoot for somewhere around 1000-1200 GPH. Single pump or multiple pumps.. Debating that issue is trivial & a matter of preference more than anything else.

I don't know anything about mag's so I can't comment on them.

I have found Aquaclear power heads to be incredibly reliable & very quiet assuming you have the vibration isolated.

I prefer submersibles because that is one less hole in the tank (sump) to deal with. Potential leak source.

I would run the return with 3/4" ID vinyl hose with hose clamps. You can run multiple pumps into a single return back to that tank. The pressurized water is going to seek the path of least resistance.

One thing to consider though, if running multiple returns back to the tank you have the ability to create multiple return areas for surface agitation. Using multiple returns spreads the velocity created by 1000-1200 GPH over multiple lines so the current isn't so strong.


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## cichlid_baby (Jan 28, 2003)

I would go with an IWAKI or similar style external pump. Any impeller pump like the Mags will eventually require replacement of the impeller assembly due to degradation of performance and noise... which is almost as expensive as replacing the whole pump.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

cichlid_baby said:


> Any impeller pump like the Mags will eventually require replacement of the impeller assembly due to degradation of performance and noise... which is almost as expensive as replacing the whole pump.


That's more than a bit of an exaggeration IME. What are you basing this on?


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## Piper (Mar 3, 2011)

prov356 said:


> cichlid_baby said:
> 
> 
> > Any impeller pump like the Mags will eventually require replacement of the impeller assembly due to degradation of performance and noise... which is almost as expensive as replacing the whole pump.
> ...


+1

The impeller for a Danner 9.5 or 12 are about $16 +/-. The pump body is built like a lead brick. Don't see a great deal of cost involved with a possible impeller failure.


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## zcfish (Jan 31, 2009)

I use two rio hyperflow 26hf pumps. These are 1000gph each actual measured at the nozzle. For your tank, you can go for two 17hf if you want have something similar. I use two pumps because I can turn one off at night. I have one pump setup with only one nozzle which provide a very strong flow during the day. With one pump you need to split the flow anyway with two outlets. The rio pumps use less power than any other pump on the market.

Here's the pumps:
http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/p ... atid=20170


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## Agridion (Sep 8, 2010)

zcfish said:


> I use two rio hyperflow 26hf pumps. These are 1000gph each actual measured at the nozzle. For your tank, you can go for two 17hf if you want have something similar. I use two pumps because I can turn one off at night. I have one pump setup with only one nozzle which provide a very strong flow during the day. With one pump you need to split the flow anyway with two outlets. The rio pumps use less power than any other pump on the market.
> 
> Here's the pumps:
> http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/p ... atid=20170


zcfish. if I went with one 26HF pump should I use a 1.5" discharge piping or do I need to go with a 2" discharge piping to obtain maximum flow?


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

> zcfish. if I went with one 26HF pump should I use a 1.5" discharge piping or do I need to go with a 2" discharge piping to obtain maximum flow?


Unless my very elementary understanding of fluid dyamics is flawed - it won't matter. The diameter of the line effects pressure, not volume.

On a gravity fed circuit, it is the opposite. As the diameter of the line is increased, the volume increases exponentially.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

Diameter of the discharge off the pump is very important and Directly Related to the volume of flow the system will recieve.

Some manufacturers state that a minimum of 1-1/2"ÃƒËœ piping must be used off the pump to achieve the advertised volume of flow. The pressure restriction on the discharge is seen as head restriction to the pump.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

> The pressure restriction on the discharge is seen as head restriction to the pump.


Makes sense. Didn't think of it in that way. Kinda why I qualified my knowledge as "very elementary"..

I guess this applies at the extremes though. If full pump output is achieved through a 1" line, increasing the line diameter to 2" isn't goint to provide twice the flow. Obviously if you restrict it at the same percentage, flow would be effected..


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

cantrell00 said:


> > The pressure restriction on the discharge is seen as head restriction to the pump.
> 
> 
> Makes sense. Didn't think of it in that way. Kinda why I qualified my knowledge as "very elementary"..
> ...


[off-topic]I've been thinking for a while now that positive displacement pumps (rather than centrifugal) might have a place in aquaria. In case you don't know, centrifugal pumps produce pressure, and the flow rate is determined by the restriction (pumbing, valves, etc). A positive displacement pump produces a constant (more or less) flow rate at a given rpm. Basically, that means, you can buy a "rhinox1000" and know you're getting 1000gph out of it regardless of head rise or plumbing (again, more or less and within reasonable head pressures). Problem is, if you restrict a positive displacement pump too much and the presure rise across the pump climbs and eventually the pump goes *pop*. So, from a marketability standpoint, how can you sell one of these to a bunch of customers when you can't control how the customer MAY try to restrict the pump output with, say, a ball valve to reduce the flow (which wouldn't work, but the average customer won't know that, especially since the average customer is used to centrifugal pumps where you CAN do that and it DOES work)? I predict lots of returns and complaints of the pump being faulty.

Just so we're clear, an example of a positive displacement pump is a bicycle pump - if you keep pushing the pump up and down, air keeps going in the tire until the tire or the pump breaks. It gets harder to pump a bike pump because the pressure builds because its positive displacement. To complete the analogy, an air matress pump is a centrifugal pump, and the air matress stops inflating when the pressure inside the matress reaches the maximum pressure the air pump can produce. The bed won't overinflate, and the pump won't be harmed.[/offtopic]

Now you all know my entropeneurial(sp?) plans for becoming a millionaire and can steal my idea 

carry on.

(I use a rio 32HF by the way)


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

> I've been thinking for a while now that positive displacement pumps (rather than centrifugal) might have a place in aquaria. In case you don't know, centrifugal pumps produce pressure, and the flow rate is determined by the restriction (pumbing, valves, etc). A positive displacement pump produces a constant (more or less) flow rate at a given rpm. Basically, that means, you can buy a "rhinox1000" and know you're getting 1000gph out of it regardless of head rise or plumbing (again, more or less and within reasonable head pressures). Problem is, if you restrict a positive displacement pump too much and the presure rise across the pump climbs and eventually the pump goes *pop*. So, from a marketability standpoint, how can you sell one of these to a bunch of customers when you can't control how the customer MAY try to restrict the pump output with, say, a ball valve to reduce the flow (which wouldn't work, but the average customer won't know that, especially since the average customer is used to centrifugal pumps where you CAN do that and it DOES work)? I predict lots of returns and complaints of the pump being faulty.
> 
> Just so we're clear, an example of a positive displacement pump is a bicycle pump - if you keep pushing the pump up and down, air keeps going in the tire until the tire or the pump breaks. It gets harder to pump a bike pump because the pressure builds because its positive displacement. To complete the analogy, an air matress pump is a centrifugal pump, and the air matress stops inflating when the pressure inside the matress reaches the maximum pressure the air pump can produce. The bed won't overinflate, and the pump won't be harmed.[/offtopic]
> 
> ...


You would have to put in some kind pressure regulator in the circuit that would dump pressure back to sump when it hits that threshold... Wouldn't be that difficult if the control was initiated by solenoid and actuator. Similar to a re-gen hydraulic circuit.

My bet is that cost is the biggest obstacle for the mass market.


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## zcfish (Jan 31, 2009)

Agridion said:


> zcfish said:
> 
> 
> > I use two rio hyperflow 26hf pumps. These are 1000gph each actual measured at the nozzle. For your tank, you can go for two 17hf if you want have something similar. I use two pumps because I can turn one off at night. I have one pump setup with only one nozzle which provide a very strong flow during the day. With one pump you need to split the flow anyway with two outlets. The rio pumps use less power than any other pump on the market.
> ...


The 26HF has 1" outlet. I run 1" lines to the 3/4" nozzle. My observation (base on the water level) is that 3/4" is enough. Do avoid 90 degree elbows as each one will reduce the flow by about 100gph for a 1200gph pump. A smaller nozzle give you a stronger current therefore help removing detritus from the substrate, even though the flow is reduced a little.

I do think one 26HF is not sufficient for an 185 gallon tank. If I were you I'll get the 32HF split into two 3/4" nozzles at each end of the tank.


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## Agridion (Sep 8, 2010)

zcfish said:


> The 26HF has 1" outlet. I run 1" lines to the 3/4" nozzle. My observation (base on the water level) is that 3/4" is enough. Do avoid 90 degree elbows as each one will reduce the flow by about 100gph for a 1200gph pump. A smaller nozzle give you a stronger current therefore help removing detritus from the substrate, even though the flow is reduced a little.
> 
> I do think one 26HF is not sufficient for an 185 gallon tank. If I were you I'll get the 32HF split into two 3/4" nozzles at each end of the tank.


I'm not using the pump for circulation in the tank, just purely for biological filtration, little mechanical, and some nitrate removal with plants. I also have 2 Koralia Magnum 6's on each end of the tank.

I think I might get the 32HF since I probably would loose some flow rate due to the amount of bends I have in the system. So at roughly 5 feet of head pressure the flow rate will be roughly equal to my overflow capacity of my tank ~1,500 GPH that should be fine because I do have several elbows in my return system, but they shouldn't add much back pressure since I over sized all of the piping.

Here is my general design scheme. The outlet of the pump will be 2" then split to 1.5" which will go to 1" headers, one header for the uniform top spray bar and the other to my reverse (and regular flow) under-gravel filter 1/2 piping which will be fed by 3 3/4" piping headers. I plan on regulating the flow between the two systems by ball valves. 









Rhinox I like your idea on positive displacement pumps and the pressure problem could be easily solved by designing in a built in relieve valve which spills back to the suction of the pump. One thing though what is the energy efficiency of those pumps?


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## Agridion (Sep 8, 2010)

cantrell00 said:


> Ideally, you want 1200-1300 GPH @ 6 ft of head pressure.
> 
> You could also consider multiple pumps that equal that volume for the sake of redundancy.
> 
> I prefer the latter.


I decided to ditch the reverse under-gravel filter, use #1 coral sand as a substrate and pick up two RIO 17HF to go to my two inlets of my uniform spray bar on top.

Thanks everyone.


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## zcfish (Jan 31, 2009)

Agridion said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> > Ideally, you want 1200-1300 GPH @ 6 ft of head pressure.
> ...


I don't know why you need the spray bar, but if you use 1/2" or 3/4" loc line nozzle on the 17HF you would have quite strong current in the tank, therefore no longer need the koralia circulation pump. I am all for as fewer things as possible in the tank.


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## Agridion (Sep 8, 2010)

zcfish said:


> I don't know why you need the spray bar, but if you use 1/2" or 3/4" loc line nozzle on the 17HF you would have quite strong current in the tank, therefore no longer need the koralia circulation pump. I am all for as fewer things as possible in the tank.


good question. The reason I have the Koralia circulation pumps are to pull water through the caves. Since they are positioned inside of the caves they suck water throughout all of the caves helping remove any fish waste from behind there and into the tank. So far when I filled the tank up they work quite well. The uniform sump return bar was an idea to also help put water behind the caves in hopes to flush the waste out of the caves keeping them cleaner. If the uniform return nozzle don't work I will resort to just 2 nozzles.


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## Chunkanese (Feb 4, 2011)

Not sure if you chose your pump but i have been running a previously used mag18 on my 125. Works like a champ. Not even slightest problem, extremely quiet, and it can pretty much pump dry if need be so if some how your water level dropped, your pump wont kill itself.


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## Agridion (Sep 8, 2010)

Chunkanese said:


> Not sure if you chose your pump but i have been running a previously used mag18 on my 125. Works like a champ. Not even slightest problem, extremely quiet, and it can pretty much pump dry if need be so if some how your water level dropped, your pump wont kill itself.


Thanks chunkanese I ended up ordering two Rio 17HF pumps a few days ago. I wonder how well the Rio HF series holds up when run dry.


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## Vadimshevchuk (May 23, 2009)

im also in the same boat as you. First time sump user, and im looking at quiet pumps right now and they seem pretty decent....

http://www.petsolutions.com/storefront/ ... etOnePumps


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