# rhino horn comps



## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Two of my (7) juvenile gold head comps have what I can only describe as a small horn like protrusion on their noses. Kind of near between the eyes but lower on the nose. Has anyone else seen this? I thought it might go but if anything it is getting larger on both fish. No sine I can see of damage or disease. Should I select against this if I try and breed em or try and breed a bizzar variant? Sorry for the rubbish pic but you can just about see it on this one. (bottom right near the flash reflection  ) Far more noticable in the flesh. Not sure if they are male or female yet but kind of suspect male because of the way they act.









All the best James


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## borohands8593 (Apr 15, 2009)

Im not sure what it can be but I have seen it many times on juvies for sale at lfs. None of mine have ever had it though bought then again I only handpicked the ones without it.


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## @nt!x (Feb 9, 2009)

One of the bones in there jaw has become dislodged. Does it look like this?


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Nope not like that at all. But thanks for the pic. I kind of think this may be a genuine mutation that maybe wild cought fish carry rather than the far more common prob of a problenm with the mouth tendons by damage/disease. Do you guys (and esp borohands8593) think I should try and get my money back from the breeder? For sure it was not my intention to get anything other than normal Gold heads. But I do not want to look a gift hourse in the mouth if they could be the "next big thing"  
I suspect they may well be F1s as who bothers to breed and raise anything else in the Altolamp market? Another thing I guess I should check?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

What you describe is essentially the same as what is pictured above, though there are varying degrees of it. Nobody knows exactly why it happens, stress has been theorized, though I am fairly certain genetics has nothing to do with it. I've seen it in wild specimens. I don't like the look of it, but I don't think it would affect the fry at all.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Select against or select for? Its kind of the only choice I have, unless it is something I can go back to the breeder with asking for my money back. To be honest mine look nothing like the pic above no extended jaw no surface brake no clear infected spot, never had an extended jaw (seen this a number of times and for sure this is something different) no stress I can see and they are feeding well and growing well, perhaps better than my normal looking ones.  :-?

Going to have to get a better pic I think as I think my reaction would be the same as yours. But I kind of think this is something different.

All the best James


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

24Tropheus said:


> Select against or select for? Its kind of the only choice I have, unless it is something I can go back to the breeder with asking for my money back. To be honest mine look nothing like the pic above no extended jaw no surface brake no clear infected spot, never had an extended jaw (seen this a number of times and for sure this is something different) no stress I can see and they are feeding well and growing well, perhaps better than my normal looking ones.  :-?
> 
> Going to have to get a better pic I think as I think my reaction would be the same as yours. But I kind of think this is something different.
> 
> All the best James


Given a choice, I would select against. It isn't anything the breeder had control over, and is more likely due to environmental conditions, than genetics.

I've seen the rhino thing before.... a number of times... varying degrees of the same basic thing.


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## borohands8593 (Apr 15, 2009)

I would just take you losses and through it in a nonbreeding tank, let it grow out and live its life with out mutants and assorted cichlids lol.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

It is just an injury that altolamps are suseptable too. Torn tendon on that top bone that recesses into the upper jaw. They usually adapt and do fine.

I believe the condition is called "horse mouth."


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I realy am going to have to take then show a better pic. Maybe horse mouth for all I know but my guys sure do not look the same to me as the ones that get jaws locked out as @nt!x kindly posted.
My guys jaws look fine they just have this horn like thing.
Though if a few more pics of horse mouth could be posted maybe I could spot one that looks similar.

All the best James


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

24Tropheus said:


> I realy am going to have to take then show a better pic. Maybe horse mouth for all I know but my guys sure do not look the same to me as the ones that get jaws locked out as @nt!x kindly posted.
> My guys jaws look fine they just have this horn like thing.
> Though if a few more pics of horse mouth could be posted maybe I could spot one that looks similar.
> 
> All the best James


That's horse mouth or whatever you want to call it - it is the same thing. That rhino horn is the switch blade bone that is supposed to recess into the upper jaw bone. If you could push that rhino horn down in the same direction it is coming from and then push it vertically down it would then line up with the hole in the upper jaw bone that it is supposed to recess into. I am not saying to do that I am just trying to help you visualize what is going on. That *jaw distension* is caused by torn cartiledge and not a genetic defect. It is usually permanent, even if you try to fix it. They will adapt and do fine. I have an orange fin female that got the same injury well over a year ago - she just spawned and and has a bunch of little fry at this very moment. Hope that helps.


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

The first photo, I can't see anything in but I have a wild caught Zambian black that I have retired from breeding because he grows a white "horn" very close to one nostril that looks a bit like disease or infection at first glance.

I thought it was HITH for a long time. Have given him FULL courses of everything under the sun and then assumed it was either viral or genetic. Other than his "horn" he is in great condition, wants to breed and shows absolutely no ill effects from it. But it does come and go for seemingly no reason. Is this familiar?

I thought maybe lymphocystus for awhile too but it does not progress. It has been 2 years 
Somehow I doubt it because I obsessively searched for a cure/answer for my calvus and here he sits in the "mutant" tank all alone.
it's tough to make out


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

It bugs me to no end that he has this condition or whatever it is because he's gorgeous otherwise. I just don't don't want to pass on this genetic propensity even though he and his fry are great looking fish.


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

another thought I ha is that your fish may have been bitten badly by another adult, somewhere between you and Africa. Many breeders keep these guys in vat together to recondition them before sending them to us , of course, but most importers, or any of us for that matter, don't have room to house all the males separate so I'm sure some battles ensue, however, your bit may have lacerated his face just above that "Horse Mouth" tendon releasing it from it's skin like sheath.

By it's own physiological order of healing it may be scarring or literally growing or calcifying externally. Just a thought


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

No expert mate but yours looks a bit different to mine and mine (and yours) a bit different to the pic of the one that can not close its mouth properly. My two WC calvus are perfect (I think) except the female is a little over stroppy but each week lets the male a little closer, so still have high hopes. My TB comps on the other hand, well I kind of liked the look until it was explained to me here (Thanks Razzo) what is causing the horn (Seems to make sence as there was no skin break or disease I saw but then as they came to me (auction) with the horn (disease or wound may have been treated or just healed up over time) I can not be sure). Still not got any better shots of mine but hopefully will get some soon.  

The plan of putting in the pulcher and comps in with the calvus has kind of worked. Those guys (the pulcher) are settling down to breed (sadly my intention was to force the calvus together) but hey ho. (And the comps because of being TB acting as dithers, they never try and hide. (The calvus were just sulking at iether end of the tank until additions and I kind of thought they needed help getting it together and to come ot in the open (the second bit has worked very well)) The pulcher will be moved to another tank once I am sure they have spawned as they will (I think) be way to agressive once protecting young to stay with the Altolamps in a tank as small as this..

All the best James


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## Fishing Rod (Jan 16, 2010)

Great post!

I have been trying to get some information on the rhino horn for some time now.

I have a large Yellow Calvus with the horn. The horn does not appear to be from an injury and the fish does not have the extended jaw or horse mouth look either. It just has a large horn on its nose.

It may be some kind of damage, but honestly, I think it looks kinda cool.

I will work on getting some pictures to post.

Thanks


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

ok, I feel like a moron! It must have been late when I wrote that novel of a post about my calvus. I just now realized you said "Rhino horn comp"! I see it in the pic now and, sorry to say, that is horse face.

Calvus tend to be more prone to the extended version of horse mouth (Longer snout shape I guess) but I have ocassionally seen calvus and comps get your version of it. Like razzo said earlier it's that switchblade tendon.

It usually tears when the fish is extending its mouth to create that suction (I know you know all this but there is a twist). However, every once in awhile, the top of the tendon tears instead of the bottom.

The difference is that, since the tendon is not connected to the bone at the top it has a tendency (no pun) to slide over the skull creating the "horn" effect without that horse face look.

you might try holding the head between your thumb and fore finger pressing gently in an attempt to slide the tendon forward, this may re-injure him but it may also flip that bone underneath the skull, it technically doesn't belong under the skull but it'll look better anyway and will have a chance to heal in a better position. HTH.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

No worries BioG your post is and was benifitial to the thread. 8) 
For sure all Altolamps may suffer from these kind of probs (to do with (I guess) their highly evolved but problem causing feeding method) and I for sure think there may be more than one thing going on here. 8)
Dunno about trying to fix it. They seem fine to me. The two "sufferers" are the two fastest growing of my group. Which kind of suprises me if it is a defect or injury. But then I guess it must be or they would be found more in wild fish? I guess it is far less important for a captive fish (hovering up flake, granuals and pellets) than a wild fish hunting live prey to have fully working hunting apparatus.

All the best James


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