# Can someone figure this out. My fish are dying



## misterted (Sep 12, 2003)

This has happened before in the same tank, I lost all my fish as a result.

My ph was low, like 6 .
I used a buffer to bring it up. It worked fast and is now around 8.
Had some ammonia so I made a 25% water change this morning.
Nitrites, nitrates are ok.

Fish were and are on the top of the tank. Before that they were darting, flashing and scratching themselves on anything,sand, rocks, etc. They are now beginning to die. This started 2 days ago.

None of what I've been doing helped so this morning I treated the tank with prazi-pro. Not sure if it will work or not.

Before I added these fish one week ago the tank ran empty for about a month.

I never found out what killed my fish before this new batch. But I did like ten water changes after that to flush the tank out.

I don't know why this is happening again and would appreciate any help


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## Flippercon (Mar 5, 2011)

What buffer did you use? How much of it and did you add it with the fish in the tank?


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

How did you cycle the tank? You should see some nitrates, NO ammonia or nitrites.
If your pH is crashing, check your KH both in tank and from the tap. You may need to buffer with water changes.
Size and dimensions of the tank and what filters are you running?


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## Kerricko (May 26, 2010)

From what I read it doesn't sound like your tank was cycled. Also a fast change in PH could cause stress that may be connected with some of the problems you are seeing. Not sure what can be done at this point except WC. Did you break the tank down and give it a thorough cleaning after the last die off? Wish I had more to offer in the way of help.

Maybe a pic or 2 could provide some more insight.


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## mccluggen (Jul 5, 2008)

I also think it sounds like your tank wasn't cycled. If you left your tank empty for a month then added fish without first spending time seeding for a biological filter your bacteria colonies will have died back.

On top of that ammonia becomes more toxic when the PH is higher. Most likely you had ammonia in the water when the PH was low, then you buffered the water up to 8.0 and it turned toxic which started to burn the fishes gills and skin which lead to the behavior you described.

If your tank is properly cycled you should see 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites, and some amount of nitrates. If you didn't see any nitrates on the test your tank isn't cycled. If you do see nitrates as well as ammonia your filtration is insufficient or you had too much waste (in the form of dead fish, uneaten food, or something else) for the biological filter to handle.

For folks to help It would be best to post some more info on your tank, starting with how big it is, what sort of filtration you have, what sort of fish you have, and what the actual readings for ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates are.


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## misterted (Sep 12, 2003)

Tank size is 265 gallon
Fish are African Haps from juvenile to adult size.
Tank is 7ft long.
Excellent aeration, returns breaking the surface and large air stone.

Nitrates are between 0 - 20
Nitrites are between 0.5-1.0
Hardness is 250
Alkalinity is 180-240
PH is 8.0

Ammonia is 0.5

My filter is a very large (4 ft long) sump with the bio balls in it. It has 2 large pads as well.
2 Mag Drives inside the sump as well as 2 heaters.

I am changing water constantly but they remain at the top breathing hard.
The rest are swimming around but not acting naturally.
They began by scratching themselves amongst the rocks or sand and they dart and shake their heads.

I am going to change the water again now. I'm thinking 50%.
I will buffer it and treat it as I always do for chloramine and other toxins.

The buffer I used is the made for Malawi Cichlids and I followed the directions on the bottle. But they were in bad shape before I buffered the tank so that could not be the cause.
Also, the fish were in bad shape before I upped the PH so that cannot be it and they would be better by now since a couple days have passed.

The fish are dying so if anyone has any ideas I would love to hear them, I feel really bad for the fish. I'll try anything to see if they get better as a result of it.

Would stress-Zyme help?

I hope I answered all questions. Sorry for the lack of information.


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## mccluggen (Jul 5, 2008)

It sounds like you are going through a partial cycle. Likely while your tank was empty your biological filter died back. If you have nitrates that is a good sign as things should catch up quickly.

My suggestion would be daily water changes (about 25%) as long as ammonia and nitrites are showing up in the test. Cut way back (or even discontinue) feeding while your tank catches up, and I would personally be very careful of the buffering mix. If your PH is swinging back and forth that is going to cause more harm to your fish than leaving it steady. I would keep an eye on that. If you have to keep adding the buffer (even if you are not changing the water) to keep the PH up I would discontinue it. Also remember that the higher the PH the more lethal ammonia is.

I have heard that a little plain salt (not iodized and without caking agents) can help fish cope with nitrites, I don't know for sure, but it shouldn't hurt. 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons is the most common "therapeutic dose" I have had quoted at me.

As for stress-zyme I don't know. I think a lot of those slime coat / biological additives are more for the owner's benefit (to feel like they are doing something) than the fishes. I don't know if it will help, but it probably won't hurt.


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## misterted (Sep 12, 2003)

If the water coming out of my tap has a ph of around 6.5 should I buffer it if I am doing 50% water changes? So far I have not needed to rebuffer the tank after the initial treatment on Saturday.


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## Flippercon (Mar 5, 2011)

misterted said:


> If the water coming out of my tap has a ph of around 6.5 should I buffer it if I am doing 50% water changes? So far I have not needed to rebuffer the tank after the initial treatment on Saturday.


You need to keep the buffer the same. I have the same water coming out my tap and what I did to find my formula was with a 5 gallon bucket. Take the bucket fill it with 5 gallons. Dose dechlorinator to its respective amount. Add something for flow (airstone/powerhead). Add your buffer (i use the recipe in the library). Don't forget to record how much of the buffer you used. Let it run for 24 hrs and test kh,gh,and ph. Wait another 24 and test again. I did this for 3 days untill my water was where I needed it. So then when I do my water changes I have a set amount of buffer I put in the tank. I just do The math with the amount of water I chAnge. When water evaporates you just add dechlorinated water to the sump/tank to top it off. Only when removing water is when you need to add your buffer. I hope this helps ,It took me a while to figure it out but it is easy as pie now. :thumb:


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## misterted (Sep 12, 2003)

Here's an update:

I let things go until yesterday when I performed a 40%-50% water change.
Here are the water paramters:

Nitrates 0-20
Nitrites 0
Hardness 120-250ppm
Alkilinity 120-180ppm
8ph
0-0.5 ppm Ammonia

This was the first 24hr period where no fish died. Although I have lost 50 fish and roughly 9 survive. The 9 that have survived were at the top of the water line yesterday looking for air while I was refilling the tank but since then they are behaving "normally" for the first time, no longer staying at the top of the tank. Although some are still scratching themselves on the sand and rocks every now and then but it isn't so bad.

So what now?


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## allierw (Apr 20, 2006)

It's going to take some time for your tank to cycle. Do you use Seachem Prime to dechlorinate? If so, that will help detoxify ammonia and nitrite levels while the tank cycles. If you are running a heater, lowering the temp can also help, since warmer water has lower oxygen levels. I would just keep doing daily water changes and testing your levels.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> My ph was low, like 6 .


When pH is that low, the nitrifying bacteria are inhibited/dormant, call it what you want. The ammonia then builds up. The good news is that ammonia at a low pH is not toxic. When you raised the pH, the ammonia was converted to a toxic form, and the bacteria started doing what they do, converting ammonia to nitrite, also toxic. Seems from your readings the bacteria are now getting caught up and things are going better.

You need to buffer your source water if KH is very low. I see your tank readings, but I don't see tap readings, so can't say for sure. But would be my guess that your KH is low if pH is very low at the tap. Not always the case, so test.

I really doubt this is disease related. Instead it sounds like ammonia/nitrite poisoning, symptoms and all. I'd keep doing the water changes to dillute ammonia and nitrite as needed while buffering, if needed. You can use baking soda instead of the commrecial products. It'll work well and save you money.


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## mccluggen (Jul 5, 2008)

prov356 said:


> > My ph was low, like 6 .
> 
> 
> When pH is that low, the nitrifying bacteria are inhibited/dormant, call it what you want. The ammonia then builds up. The good news is that ammonia at a low pH is not toxic. When you raised the pH, the ammonia was converted to a toxic form, and the bacteria started doing what they do, converting ammonia to nitrite, also toxic. Seems from your readings the bacteria are now getting caught up and things are going better.
> ...


+1


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## misterted (Sep 12, 2003)

These are my tap readings:

Nitrate 0
Nitrite 0-0.5
Total Hardness 50-120
Total Alkalinity 80
PH 7.2


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I would buffer a bit because that alkalinity value leaves little margin for error. By using baking soda you'll find your pH will bump up a bit too, but more importantly, it'll be stable. Just work out a routine of adding buffers during water changes to make up for what's lacking in the tap water. The other values look fine, but are you sure of the trace nitrite level? Is this city or well water?


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## misterted (Sep 12, 2003)

prov356 said:


> I would buffer a bit because that alkalinity value leaves little margin for error. By using baking soda you'll find your pH will bump up a bit too, but more importantly, it'll be stable. Just work out a routine of adding buffers during water changes to make up for what's lacking in the tap water. The other values look fine, but are you sure of the trace nitrite level? Is this city or well water?


This is City water. The results were border line, the color was closer to that of 0 than the next step up but nevertheless it wasn't exact.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I would then get a copy of your local water quality report. You can usually find it using Google. You can get a lot of info about what's in your tap. If nitrite is not supposed to be there, but you're finding a trace, then you can call them and have them check that out.


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## sidharthbanyal (Jun 26, 2011)

Best thing is to get your water checked. It can be the root cause.


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## misterted (Sep 12, 2003)

Ok, no more deaths.
I am now buggering my water when it comes out of the tap.
The remaining fish are acting normal again, no scratching any more.

Still a bit of ammonia but nothing major.

I will continue with the water changes until it is normal again.

Thank you everyone for your help.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

Ok so i'm pretty sure i did not see any1 else mention this, but the bacteria in your tank (Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter), despite being able to tollerate a variety of PH's, cannot go from a PH of 6 to a PH of 8 in a single night, since PH of 7.0 is 10x more alkaline than PH of 6.0, and each 1.0 up is 10x more alkaline than the previous, and vice-versa. So what could have happened, and what probably happened, is that the sudden jump from 6.0 to 8.0 shocked the bacteria so much that a lot of them died off. Essentially, u've just reset ur tank. This can also happen when one raises the temperature by more than a couple degrees Farenheit in one go. If you want to prevent this in the future, simply make sure that your KH is at a decent level and your tank is well buffered so that a major spike or dip does not occur, and you should be fine.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

BelieveInBlue said:


> Ok so i'm pretty sure i did not see any1 else mention this, but the bacteria in your tank (Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter), despite being able to tollerate a variety of PH's, cannot go from a PH of 6 to a PH of 8 in a single night, since PH of 7.0 is 10x more alkaline than PH of 6.0, and each 1.0 up is 10x more alkaline than the previous, and vice-versa. So what could have happened, and what probably happened, is that the sudden jump from 6.0 to 8.0 shocked the bacteria so much that a lot of them died off. Essentially, u've just reset ur tank. This can also happen when one raises the temperature by more than a couple degrees Farenheit in one go. If you want to prevent this in the future, simply make sure that your KH is at a decent level and your tank is well buffered so that a major spike or dip does not occur, and you should be fine.


Welcome to the forum, but lots of problems with this info. Why do you believe that bacteria can be killed off by pH changes? Any documentation to support this? And temperature changes of a couple degrees also kills off bacteria? Beg to differ with all of this. Not to mention that it's been shown some time ago that it's not actually nitrobacter that does the biofiltration in our tanks.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

The bit about the pH came from biology class, in the textbook there was a bit about how certain bacteria are only able to survive in a certain pH range, much like fish, and that large, rapid changes may shock and kill them. Although I should correct myself on the temperature; it would take more than a couple degrees change, but that part came from personal experience.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> how certain bacteria are only able to survive in a certain pH range


That may well be true, or not, I don't know, but even if so, it's unlikely that you can apply that to all bacteria. Bacteria in aquariums responsible for nitrification have proven themselves to be pretty hardy and can tolerate a range of pH and temperature. Your dieoff may have been caused by something else.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

I suppose I will find out in about a week whether that is true or not. My friend gave me his 50 gallon tank about 5 days ago, and after completely draining the tank, transporting it and tinkering with it for about 3 hours, and then filling it with water about 10F higher than what it was AND adding 12 zebra danios, with 4 dying off in the first night, I've still yet to see ammonia or nitrite show up. So perhaps the bacteria really IS hardier than i thought they were.


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