# Hi, new to site and 1st post! Lots of questions...



## iluvmud

Hi all,

new here and A few months back I was lucky enough to purchase a 46 gallon bow tank from a guy and he included pretty much everything I would need....... including free fish!! This fish is mainly for my kiddo who wanted fish but of course I am in charge of maintenance and making sure they live but of course that the tank is livable for the fish and colorful for the child. That being said I think I got everything I need and sold/gave some fish to a local fish store and purchased a couple more (sold off a nice 3.5' bumblebee that was way too aggressive and an even worse black convict) and am now looking to add 2-3 more fish.

This is what I currently have-
-2 electric yellows (1 confirmed male, other might be female or too young to tell- newly purchased 2 months ago)
-2 electirc blues (no clue how to tell the sexes and both look to be fully matured)
-1 sucker fish

All the fish are within a 2-3" range in size and have always wanted to add at least 2 more possibly 3 but havent felt any urgency to pick some up until I saw these (yes......... on ebay) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tropical-Fish-A ... 2374920800

and was wondering how they would do with the current fish I have....
as you can see, they have their demeanor listed as "peaceful" and the fish I have all seem to get along minus the larger male electric yellow getting a bug up his butt once in a while but outside of that theyre good and was hoping these peacocks would be able to coexist with the rest of the gang and add some color to the tank.

If theyre not good any recommendation would be great as I am really pretty new to this and dont want to have any floaties on my watch.

Thanks,
MUD


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## james1983

What are the dimensions of your tank? Also a pic of the electric blues for a proper I.d. would help. Most African cichlids are too aggressive for tanks under 4'.


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## iluvmud

35/5" wide X 16.5" length (from highest point of the bow) and about 20.5" in height


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## DJRansome

You could do 1m:4f of the yellow labs and nothing else in the tank. A 36" tank is limiting for Lake Malawi mbuna. The pic in the link is an OB peacock which is a hybrid. For that fish plus the yellow labs you would need a 48x12 tank or larger.

There are a couple of other options for a single species (other than labs) in the tank you already have if you want to start over.


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## iluvmud

Well I didnt want to start over, thought there would/should be room to add a couple to the current fish I have. Not wanting to start over, if that peacock wont work or if I cant fit any more in there than I am ok with that, or if another fish can live in there too I am also good with that as well. I've grown attached to the guys I have in there now so adding to the family vs replacing the family would be the ideal situation.


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## DJRansome

The electric blues are too aggressive for a tank that size. And the fact that you have pairs is a problem unless both existing fish are females. Malawi males tend to kill a lone female because they are harem breeders...too much constant chasing of the only available females wears her down, she lurks under the surface or behind filter intakes or heaters and eventually illness/death can occur.

Thus my suggestion to swap the 2 blues for 2 yellows for a healthy stock.

The aggression may not be happening now and the fish keeper often does not see it. For me it happened about 8 months after I started my first tank...when I was even more attached.

If you don't want to rehome any fish I would wait and see how they are doing in a year...then maybe they will be fine or maybe you will have some lurkers between now and then and you will know what to do.

Note Malawi tanks are stocked by dimensions, not gallons. Bowfronts are deceiving because you have more gallons but the 36" length is the limiting factor. The males want to claim/defend a portion of the substrate. Some want a square yard or more.


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## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> The electric blues are too aggressive for a tank that size. And the fact that you have pairs is a problem unless both existing fish are females. Malawi males tend to kill a lone female because they are harem breeders...too much constant chasing of the only available females wears her down, she lurks under the surface or behind filter intakes or heaters and eventually illness/death can occur.
> 
> Thus my suggestion to swap the 2 blues for 2 yellows for a healthy stock.
> 
> The aggression may not be happening now and the fish keeper often does not see it. For me it happened about 8 months after I started my first tank...when I was even more attached.
> 
> If you don't want to rehome any fish I would wait and see how they are doing in a year...then maybe they will be fine or maybe you will have some lurkers between now and then and you will know what to do.
> 
> Note Malawi tanks are stocked by dimensions, not gallons. Bowfronts are deceiving because you have more gallons but the 36" length is the limiting factor. The males want to claim/defend a portion of the substrate. Some want a square yard or more.


great info........ I hope theyre blue electics  I would assume theyre both female then as they both swim together...... not chasing each other around.

Here I'll post pics of the fishfam

This is the yellow that I'm assuming is a female by the lack of black on the bottom fins.... she is the only fish who willing to pose for the camera and has been in the tank for about 3-4 months


This is the two blues- always hang with each other the one with the stripes is the older one and the other came with the yellow above


And this is the dominant one.... male yellow. He is mostly calm but once in a while he will chase the others around the tank for a few seconds.



then the sucker fish who doesnt need a pic 

maybe this will help determine if Im giving the correct info or not.

PS ignore the stuff floating in the water I had to feed them in order to get them out in the open. apparently theyre afraid of the camera.


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## DJRansome

The top blue one looks like an acei. The bottom one has the blue color and yellow fins but bars...which I have never seen on an acei.

Electric blues have horizontal stripes.

Try posting all these pics in the Unidentified forum for more info.


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## Aaron S

Ha! Ok, so we had the wrong impression of what fish you had. So yeah the last picture of the yellow looks like a decent male. The first yellow lab is likely a hybrid because of the lack of darkness in the dorsal stripe, but I agree that its likely female. The two blues are actually pseudotropheus acei - that is both good and bad. It does help to explain why they just swim together because acei are one of the more peaceful mbuna (just like the yellow labs) They do, however, grow to be quite large and most people would not recommend them in a 3ft tank because they really enjoy swimming around and will be pretty depressed in a 3ft tank when full grown. In my opinion, you MIGHT be able to get away with that mix in the tank but I am betting that your male yellow lab will kill your single female when it is breeding season. Furthermore, it looks like someone has been picking on one of the acei.


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## Fogelhund

The lack of black on the lab does not indicate gender, and to me actually looks more like a hybrid than a pure lab to me. I have seen acei with such barring, so I am not concerned there, other than they grow much too big for your aquarium.


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## Aaron S

I have also seen some barring on acei.

My comment about the faintness of the black on the lab was not the reason I suggested probably female but instead the distinct lack of points to the dorsal fin (of course its all conjecture without venting)


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## BC in SK

Fogelhund said:


> The lack of black on the lab does not indicate gender


There certainly is a connection. Especially on young fish. Young females in particular, can lack black coloration on the fins, almost entirely.
In the past I found at least 3 threads on the internet of wild caught electric yellows that demonstrate the very same thing. So it is not peculiar to the domestic stock.
Also a connection with how prominent the black is and pecking order. Have had females loose black coloration as they fell in the pecking order of the tank.


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## iluvmud

Aaron S said:


> Ha! Ok, so we had the wrong impression of what fish you had. So yeah the last picture of the yellow looks like a decent male. The first yellow lab is likely a hybrid because of the lack of darkness in the dorsal stripe, but I agree that its likely female. The two blues are actually pseudotropheus acei - that is both good and bad. It does help to explain why they just swim together because acei are one of the more peaceful mbuna (just like the yellow labs) They do, however, grow to be quite large and most people would not recommend them in a 3ft tank because they really enjoy swimming around and will be pretty depressed in a 3ft tank when full grown. In my opinion, you MIGHT be able to get away with that mix in the tank but I am betting that your male yellow lab will kill your single female when it is breeding season. Furthermore, it looks like someone has been picking on one of the acei.


well ****, I do like the blues but I was planning on getting another tank. ATM theyre about 2.5-3" in size and I hope they dont grow too fast  . Also what do I do about the male killing the female (if it is) when breeding season starts? When is breeding season?

Also the Acei was being picked on by the older blue fish because he got sick (forgot the name of the bacteria that was in the tank something like white spotting or something to that effect) but added salt in the tank to kill off the bacteria and now theyre are BFFs again....lol

I am hoping to get a 60gal tank at some point in the future, I like my current tank but it is rather "dated" looking and would like something nicer to go in the living room. When I do this tank will probably find its way into my office.



Fogelhund said:


> The lack of black on the lab does not indicate gender, and to me actually looks more like a hybrid than a pure lab to me. I have seen acei with such barring, so I am not concerned there, other than they grow much too big for your aquarium.


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## Fogelhund

BC in SK said:


> Fogelhund said:
> 
> 
> 
> The lack of black on the lab does not indicate gender
> 
> 
> 
> There certainly is a connection. Especially on young fish. Young females in particular, can lack black coloration on the fins, almost entirely.
> In the past I found at least 3 threads on the internet of wild caught electric yellows that demonstrate the very same thing. So it is not peculiar to the domestic stock.
> Also a connection with how prominent the black is and pecking order. Have had females loose black coloration as they fell in the pecking order of the tank.
Click to expand...

To the degree of the first fish... no, not at all..

goes back, and looks at my F1 Labs again... no.


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## BC in SK

I don't think I will be able to find the old threads with wild caught fish; one of them I recall was from a french forum. Anyways even pictures from lake Malawi can show a lack of black coloration. No black coloration at all in the pelvic fins and very little in the anal fin on the top fish:http://malawicichlids.com/mw09001j.htm I wouldn't speculate as to the sex of this fish.... only that large dominant males in captivity would have a lot more black.
Pictures of young holding females that lack black coloration are prevalent. All hybrids? More then a coincidence when the dominant male accompanying these fish all have prominent black.


Fogelhund said:


> To the degree of the first fish... no, not at all..


Well both young holding females lack black coloration in this threadhttp://www.cichlidae.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18670 Especially the 2nd one, has even less black coloration then the Op's fish. Hybrids because they lack the black coloration?


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## DJRansome

iluvmud said:


> well #%$&, I do like the blues but I was planning on getting another tank. ATM theyre about 2.5-3" in size and I hope they dont grow too fast  . Also what do I do about the male killing the female (if it is) when breeding season starts? When is breeding season?


At 3" they are fairly mature so it is time to provide a 48x18 tank. They breed 24/7. To prevent the male killing the female, you add females. 1m:4f will work as soon as you get the 48x18 tank.


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## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> iluvmud said:
> 
> 
> 
> well #%$&, I do like the blues but I was planning on getting another tank. ATM theyre about 2.5-3" in size and I hope they dont grow too fast  . Also what do I do about the male killing the female (if it is) when breeding season starts? When is breeding season?
> 
> 
> 
> At 3" they are fairly mature so it is time to provide a 48x18 tank. They breed 24/7. To prevent the male killing the female, you add females. 1m:4f will work as soon as you get the 48x18 tank.
Click to expand...

MMMAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNN I was hoping I had a little time to buy a tank. is a 48X18 a 60gal tank? I barely got the wife on board with buying the tank............later. lol So I need to get the little female out of the tank or find me a larger tank then correct?

and if I do get the larger tank will the peacocks be ok with the current fish I have or still no?


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## DJRansome

48x18 is a 75G...be sure to get the rectangle shape. In a tank that size you could do:
1m:4f yellow labs
1m:4f acei
1m:4f OB Peacocks

And one other species or you could do the three species with 1m:6f of each. Note for the OB peacocks only the male is colorful and the females are silver/brown.


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## iluvmud

Hi DJRansome, and a 48X 12 will not work?


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## DJRansome

With 48x12 I would skip the acei. You could do the labs and peacocks.


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## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> With 48x12 I would skip the acei. You could do the labs and peacocks.


well i already own the acei...... 2 anyways.

I found a 48X18 tank 

question, that means i now have to get rid of one of my aceis? since were assuming theyre both males?

do i HAVE to get females? I dont want to breed any fish so is it necessary to do that? I might buy more yellow labs since apparently I have a female (we think right?)... but for the peacocks and acei do i need to get females would 2 males not be OK?


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## DJRansome

Two males would be expected to kill each other. If you have lab females, you would likely want to get 4 females for every male in the tank or they would all fight over her and likely kill her.

For all male you want one of each species with no look alikes...and mbuna all male is even harder to achieve than peacock/hap all male.


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## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> Two males would be expected to kill each other. If you have lab females, you would likely want to get 4 females for every male in the tank or they would all fight over her and likely kill her.
> 
> For all male you want one of each species with no look alikes...and mbuna all male is even harder to achieve than peacock/hap all male.


Ok... so let me make sure I understand

2 males of same species = kill each other

1 male of each species (1 yellow lab, 1 peacock, the 2 current acai) ,4 yellow lab females = every species in the tank will fight over the lab females and kill them

right?

Also when is mating season so I know when I need to get this tank up and running.......


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## wryan

iluvmud said:


> Also *when* is mating season .......


Whenever there are females around ...

:lol:


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## DJRansome

Yes they mate all year around. Each female can produce 20 fry every other month.

If you want to mix all male (the peacocks) with mixed gender (the mbuna) that can work. But if you have 2 male acei and 1 male yellow lab you should provide females for each. So 1m:4f yellow labs and 2m:8f acei and 1m peacock. You would not be surprised if the 2 acei males were aggressive to each other or even killed each other, but sometimes, with acei and labs specifically, extra males can be accepted by the group.

Without adding females, the 3 mbuna males will fight over the 4 mbuna females making it likely that the females will be harassed too much for a healthy future.


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## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> Yes they mate all year around. Each female can produce 20 fry every other month.
> 
> If you want to mix all male (the peacocks) with mixed gender (the mbuna) that can work. But if you have 2 male acei and 1 male yellow lab you should provide females for each. So 1m:4f yellow labs and 2m:8f acei and 1m peacock. You would not be surprised if the 2 acei males were aggressive to each other or even killed each other, but sometimes, with acei and labs specifically, extra males can be accepted by the group.
> 
> Without adding females, the 3 mbuna males will fight over the 4 mbuna females making it likely that the females will be harassed too much for a healthy future.


pardon my ignorance, but Mbuna= the blue acei and yellow labs?

right now the male lab is chasing the little yellow one around, havent really seen this behavior before and there isnt a place for her to really hide besides behind some of the fake plants....... and he will go after her. Now I feel bad................... I might lose that fish i guess as the large tank so its not ready (needs to be cleaned).


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## DJRansome

Yes mbuna are labs and acei. The peacock is the blotchy one (OB Peacock).


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## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> Yes mbuna are labs and acei. The peacock is the blotchy one (OB Peacock).


ok great for the info! I went to my local fish store and they only had one female that was the size I needed her to be so I need to find another place that will have some more female yellow labs 

I thought it be best that I reseal the tank as the job that was done on it was pretty sloppy so I went ahead and did it myself... looks pretty good (now holding water is yet to be seen........) Have to wait another day to let the silicone cure before I can test it, and clean it for that matter.

But I bought a glass lid and LED lighting and below gravel filter system for it so once the test is good to go, Ill get the new tank all set up.

question- the cabinet for this tank is basically a rim, as in there is really no bottom to the cabinet and the tank just rests on its edges which is normal since the glass doesn't touch the ground anyway correct?


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## Aaron S

Yeah, it is fine that the tank just touches the rims.


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## iluvmud

Aaron S said:


> Yeah, it is fine that the tank just touches the rims.


awesome thanks, forgot to add a pic of the nearly completed product!


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## BuckeyeTez

Welcome,

I just wanted to chime in and say that what you are going thru happened to me, too. I purchased a 36G tall tank for really cheep and put fish I liked the look of in it, not knowing anything about said fish. I soon upgraded to a 55G 4' tank and decided to go with an all male tank. I now own a 125G 6' tank lol.

This whole process is trial and error. Just take time and browse these forums and try to learn as much as you can. You will find the people on here are stupid smart and know their stuff.

Best of luck!


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## iluvmud

BuckeyeTez said:


> Welcome,
> 
> I just wanted to chime in and say that what you are going thru happened to me, too. I purchased a 36G tall tank for really cheep and put fish I liked the look of in it, not knowing anything about said fish. I soon upgraded to a 55G 4' tank and decided to go with an all male tank. I now own a 125G 6' tank lol.
> 
> This whole process is trial and error. Just take time and browse these forums and try to learn as much as you can. You will find the people on here are stupid smart and know their stuff.
> 
> Best of luck!


Hah! Yeah this all started cause my 3yr wanted fish and I came across the 46G tank with everything for 100 including the cichlids.... right now I am slowly learning and just trying to get what I need for the current fish I have and to work my way up to the fish setup mentioned before.... BUT I didnt want babies...... with an all male tank you can only get 1 of each species or get two males that accept each other correct?

Also, I guess tomorrow I need to leak test this tank I should let it sit full with the water for a couple of days right? That should be long enough........I hope.


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## DJRansome

One of each species...two males are unlikely to accept each other in a smallish (75G) all-male tank. Plan for a separate tank to rehome trouble makers and plan to tinker with the stock for up to two years before you reach stability. Read the all-male tank in the Cichlid-forum Library. Haps and peacocks are easier for all-male than mbuna.

I find a mixed gender mbuna tank much easier. Any babies will most often disappear before you are even aware of them.


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## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> One of each species...two males are unlikely to accept each other in a smallish (75G) all-male tank. Plan for a separate tank to rehome trouble makers and plan to tinker with the stock for up to two years before you reach stability. Read the all-male tank in the Cichlid-forum Library. Haps and peacocks are easier for all-male than mbuna.
> 
> I find a mixed gender mbuna tank much easier. Any babies will most often disappear before you are even aware of them.


So much to learn!!! Mixed it is then heh. Also is 2 days good on the tank? It's my 1st attempt and wanted to make I did it right


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## DJRansome

Yes 2 days with no leaks should be safe.


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## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> Yes 2 days with no leaks should be safe.


Awesome thanks for the info.... but it looks like itll be more like 4 days as we now have carpet cleaners coming on Monday so itll sit in the garage full of water till Sunday


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## iluvmud

Tomorrow will be day 3 so I'll be draining the tank and getting ready for setup which will probably be Monday after carpet cleaners do their thing. Once it's set I'll start looking into buying fish.... looks like the guy who is selling the red/blue or peacocks is also selling these cool lemon jake peacocks too, just sucks that he is sending 3 males, in assuming that's in case two die on the trip over you still have one... also where the heck would I get females for these guys!?!?! Also I went to the fish store where I normally get my fish goodies and saw it was pretty hard to find females.... and especially any close in size to what I currently have.... can they be smaller or do they. Wes to be the same size??

Thanks again


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## DJRansome

Lets refresh...what is your tank size, what fish do you already have, what is your goal (example: mixed gender haps and peacocks with yellow labs).

Note if you are doing mixed gender limit to one peacock species/tank. Don't buy from a vendor that will not sell you females of the same species. The fish should be 1.5" including tail but can be smaller than your current fish.


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## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> You don't need the females to be any particular size. And you may have a long/frustrating wait/search if you limit to females.
> 
> What we do is buy unsexed juveniles, assume 50% of them will be female, and rehome extra males that cause trouble as they mature.


Missed this previously and it makes sense, I will still have the 46G tank in my office so I can move the problem ones around unless I have way too many males then I can/will rehome them.



DJRansome said:


> Lets refresh...what is your tank size, what fish do you already have, what is your goal (example: mixed gender haps and peacocks with yellow labs).
> 
> Note if you are doing mixed gender limit to one peacock species/tank. Don't buy from a vendor that will not sell you females of the same species. The fish should be 1.5" including tail but can be smaller than your current fish.


OK, here's the rundown

what is your tank size-
75Gal tank to your previous specs,
what fish do you already have- 
1 for sure yellow lab
2-pseudotropheus acei that get along 
1 unconfirmed female yellow lab (but it seems to be female as of late the Male lab has been chasing her around more often
what is your goal-
Originally was to know if a peacock will fit in with my current fish, but then hearing that my Acei might not be too happy being in my smaller tank I bought a larger one for them and then of course the possibility of adding more fish----- that's when you mentioned the fish i could add to the 75g tank below

1 yellow lab-4 females
1acei-4 females
1 peacock- 4 females
and 1 other type fish and 4 more females

In actuality I just wanted to make my current fish happy and add a few more into the tank.... so my plan is this

my current labs, ill try to add 2-3 more females 
my 2 acei dont think i need females for them as they seem ok
a peacock and if needed 3-4 females
and if you guys think it's ok that weird green peacock and 3-4 females.

Does that sound like itll work?

Also thanks for confirming that they dont need to be the size of my current fish (makes it easier to find them and more affordable too  ).

Right now Im putting in the backdrop and the gravel filter..... tank will go up Monday evening and hope to have the fish moved in by tues/wed after the new tank has run for a day or two.

one last thing, Do I need to run all 4 tubes for the undergravel filter or will two on the ends suffice? I am still planning on running a 75G and possibly a 60G top filters as well....

Thanks,


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## DJRansome

You don't want an under gravel filter. You will be using sand, right?

Buying sexable fish will make them more expensive, but OK to just buy unsexed juveniles for the labs and acei. I would:
Buy 6 unsexed yellow labs, hoping for 3 females with a plan to rehome any extra males but only if they cause trouble (this could take a year).
Buy 8 unsexed acei, , hoping for 4 females with a plan to rehome any extra males but only if they cause trouble (this could take a year).

Now for the peacocks. You could do the rest of your tank with male peacocks, but one of each, no look alikes. For example:
1 Lemon Jake, buy him as a sexed male
1 OB peacock hybrid, buy him as a sexed male
1 "weird green" peacock hybrid, buy him as a sexed male


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## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> You don't want an under gravel filter. You will be using sand, right?
> 
> Buying sexable fish will make them more expensive, but OK to just buy unsexed juveniles for the labs and acei. I would:
> Buy 6 unsexed yellow labs, hoping for 3 females with a plan to rehome any extra males but only if they cause trouble (this could take a year).
> Buy 8 unsexed acei, , hoping for 4 females with a plan to rehome any extra males but only if they cause trouble (this could take a year).
> 
> Now for the peacocks. You could do the rest of your tank with male peacocks, but one of each, no look alikes. For example:
> 1 Lemon Jake, buy him as a sexed male
> 1 OB peacock hybrid, buy him as a sexed male
> 1 "weird green" peacock hybrid, buy him as a sexed male


Ok so indexed means I don't know if they're male or female right?

Also I will be using gravel...


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## DJRansome

Correct. They are cheaper and the mbuna often are not available any other way.

Gravel will not hurt the fish but you won't see the natural behavior they exhibit with sand. Also harder to get really clean.


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## wryan

DJRansome said:


> Correct. They are cheaper and the mbuna often are not available any other way.
> 
> Gravel will not hurt the fish but you won't see the natural behavior they exhibit with sand. Also harder to get really clean.


Really harder to get really clean ...


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## iluvmud

wryan said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> 
> Correct. They are cheaper and the mbuna often are not available any other way.
> 
> Gravel will not hurt the fish but you won't see the natural behavior they exhibit with sand. Also harder to get really clean.
> 
> 
> 
> Really harder to get really clean ...
Click to expand...

It's harder to clean a tank that has gravel instead of sand??


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## wryan

Gravel has larger spaces between it that allows debris to settle down into it.

Sand packs tighter and the debris tends to mostly settle on top.


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## Aaron S

To further elaborate on wryan's info (which is completely true), if you then have good flow through the tank and intelligent placement of rocks you can get to the point where nothing settles on the sand and all of the junk goes into the filter. My current tank has only one tiny dead spot that is not automatically cleaned up. It is so much less work to have sand than gravel - its not funny.


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## iluvmud

Aaron S said:


> To further elaborate on wryan's info (which is completely true), if you then have good flow through the tank and intelligent placement of rocks you can get to the point where nothing settles on the sand and all of the junk goes into the filter. My current tank has only one tiny dead spot that is not automatically cleaned up. It is so much less work to have sand than gravel - its not funny.


Wow! Now wonder if I can use the undergravel filter in my 45gal tank then.... the gravel I bought is too small for the gravel filter anyways..... I heard pool sand is best and cheap


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## DJRansome

I would not use an undergravel filter anyway...removing the substrate and filter to clean is way too much work.


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## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> I would not use an undergravel filter anyway...removing the substrate and filter to clean is way too much work.


Fine......... you win.

Im going to buy that pool sand, looks like its 10 dollars per 50lb bag....

This is OK to use right? (ignore shipping costs, they have it locally at my Wallyworld)

https://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-67074-Aq ... 3=&veh=sem


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## DJRansome

Be careful that you get 100% silica pool filter sand that is 20grain size. Play sand will not do. My Wally World says they have it too, but they don't. My best luck was with a Pool and Spa chain store.


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## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> Be careful that you get 100% silica pool filter sand that is 20grain size. Play sand will not do. My Wally World says they have it too, but they don't. My best luck was with a Pool and Spa chain store.


Well Ace has that same pool sand so Im ok either way, but Im also seeing the quikrete is a good option as well.

One last thing....... since I wont be using the under gravel filter, I now need a more powerful filter, not a canister one. I was looking as that Emperor 400, thought about getting one of those and a smaller say 60gal filter as well. will that suffice or do you guys have better suggestions?

OH one more thing, Im currently using a Top Fin PT400 current thingy in my 46Gal, will that work in a 75Gal?

OH OH....... and another thing..... Im starting to think that little yellow lab is a dude. Today I had to move the 46G tank into the kitchen area as we had our carpets cleaned (theyll stay there until I get the 75G completed) and noticed that the bottom fins are now turning black, and he/she started going after the bigger one and they literally chased each other in a small circle for like 3-5minutes......


----------



## iluvmud

found the details on the quikrete sand

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Quikrete-50- ... er_reviews

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
QUIKRETE
®
Filter Sand is narrowly graded clean
dry silica sand specially graded for use in swimming
pool filters.
Composition and Materials:
QUIKRETE
®
Filter
Sand is high quality silica sand.
Packaging:
Available in 50-lb (13.6 Kg) bags
Color:
tan.
TECHNICAL
QUIKRETE
®
Filter Sand has a predominant size
range as follows:
US Sieve Size 20-40
Particle size (0.85-0.425 mm)

for the HTH pool filter sand I can only find this info..

50 lb, hth pool filter sand, for use in all sand filters, active ingredient crystalline silica, quartz 87-99. 9percent , bag

although I do like the whiter color better....

which would be better? I do see people using either


----------



## DJRansome

Quickcrete is terrible, don't buy it. I did and I'm still trying to get it out of my tank. You want all 20 grain...no 40 grain.

Females should have black fins all around as well...you can't sex them by appearance...except by venting.


----------



## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> Quickcrete is terrible, don't buy it. I did and I'm still trying to get it out of my tank. You want all 20 grain...no 40 grain.
> 
> Females should have black fins all around as well...you can't sex them by appearance...except by venting.


Ok then so HTH it is......... (right?)

Oh ok I thought females didnt have the lower black fins...... (**** google).


----------



## Aaron S

HTH is what I use.


----------



## iluvmud

Aaron S said:


> HTH is what I use.


Awesome thanks, it looks like a really pale tan or off white is that correct?


----------



## Fogelhund

DJRansome said:


> Quickcrete is terrible, don't buy it. I did and I'm still trying to get it out of my tank. You want all 20 grain...no 40 grain.
> 
> Females should have black fins all around as well...you can't sex them by appearance...except by venting.


What problems have you had with Quickcrete? I've been using it for nearly two decades.


----------



## BuckeyeTez

Fogelhund said:


> What problems have you had with Quickcrete? I've been using it for nearly two decades.


I tried it. Took over an hour to flush the dust particles from the pre "washed/filtered" labeled sand that was in the bag. If by washed/filtered they mean they washed and filtered the rocks before smashing them into 20-40 grain pieces, then I'd agree.

Second the color of the sand was all over the place. Light, dark, and every color in between. It was hard to tell what was fish poop or larger pebbles.

I kept it for barely a month before going to African Cichlid Mix substrate and never looking back. It's a lot more expensive but I'm able to stick the gravel vac down into it and it doesn't get sucked out like the sand would.

Just my 2c...


----------



## Aaron S

The HTH has several colors. In general it is a light tan with probably 10% slightly darker colors. Disclaimer: I am a guy and as such really stink at distinguishing colors.


----------



## DJRansome

Fogelhund said:


> What problems have you had with Quickcrete? I've been using it for nearly two decades.


I know, you are the reason I tried it. Have you bought any in the last 2 years? Half of it was very fine.

I also have trouble getting 100% silica at pool filter places (including Wal Mart and Home Depot and Leslie's Pool and Spa, etc.). They are using a different material as silica is considered hazardous.

Now I go to the aggregate supplier (commercial sand blasters, etc.). THEY know how to give you a specified grain size. They were hysterical I wanted the material for fish tanks.


----------



## iluvmud

Alright just picked up 2 50lb bags of hth and will start cleaning in a few. I understand you'll never really get it 100% clean right?

Also was the idea of having a 75g and 60g filters good to have or will one 75g work? Also what's good brand?


----------



## DJRansome

Pool filter sand should be almost perfectly clean. Still, wash in 5G buckets half full or less and run a hose for 15 full minutes shoved into the bottom of the sand. At the end of the 15 minutes the water in the top half of the bucket should be perfectly clear. If it is not...wash again. Sounds like too much for a 75G with rocks for Malawi. Put the rocks on the glass and THEN add the sand.

You will be able to tell if there is a lot of smaller grain sand in the product if some/a lot washes over the top of the bucket. Let it go...it's no good for your tank.

Check the GPH (gallons per hour) of the filters you are considering. You want between 8X and 10X turnover of the water in your tank hourly. I like Filstar XP filters...some like Fluval...some like Eheim.


----------



## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> Pool filter sand should be almost perfectly clean. Still, wash in 5G buckets half full or less and run a hose for 15 full minutes shoved into the bottom of the sand. At the end of the 15 minutes the water in the top half of the bucket should be perfectly clear. If it is not...wash again. Sounds like too much for a 75G with rocks for Malawi. Put the rocks on the glass and THEN add the sand.
> 
> You will be able to tell if there is a lot of smaller grain sand in the product if some/a lot washes over the top of the bucket. Let it go...it's no good for your tank.
> 
> Check the GPH (gallons per hour) of the filters you are considering. You want between 8X and 10X turnover of the water in your tank hourly. I like Filstar XP filters...some like Fluval...some like Eheim.


It's done I did about a 3rd of a bucket at a time and ran it with my spray nozzle penetrating the sand and running my hand through it stirring the **** out of it, then before the lighter stuff could really settle I'd pour out the water and go at it again until when it poured out or I stopped stirring I could see the granularity in the sand vs just seeing the sand in general. It looks good and the tank is full, now to heat it and get it all going for a few days before I move in the fish.

I don't have rock remember this started out for my kid so I have a fake rock thing with one hiding place and then fake logs for them to hide in and fake plants..... not many but about 3 or 4. I'll get more one I pick up the new fish, want these guys acclimated to the new home before I bring in more, that and I'd rather it not be freezing when I have the peacocks delivered.

As for the filters, I was looking at tetra and marine land type stuff. I haven't seen the brands you mentioned at any of the stores I've visited but I'll take a look tonight.


----------



## DJRansome

Stores charge 1/3 more than online. I would not buy those brands.

The pouring technique never really worked for me but maybe you will be fine since it is pool filter sand.


----------



## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> Stores charge 1/3 more than online. I would not buy those brands.
> 
> The pouring technique never really worked for me but maybe you will be fine since it is pool filter sand.


The tank is clear now, I think the pouring technique worked  That and the sand was pretty clean.

Man I know they do but the Petco by my house has been giving me their online prices which are usually about 10-15 dollars cheaper than in store. Let me see how quick I can get those other filters.


----------



## iluvmud

OK i did research, looks like the filstar M is within my budget which is said to handle up to 75G .......... I really didnt want a canister filter as I read about the leaks. I also read reviews on the filstar about the inlet piece breaking and the plastic tubs cracking..... this is from the last 2-3 years and older ones seem to be better machines. Just what I have read, what is you's guys experience?


----------



## iluvmud

well.... pulled the trigger on the Filstar XP


----------



## Fogelhund

DJRansome said:


> Fogelhund said:
> 
> 
> 
> What problems have you had with Quickcrete? I've been using it for nearly two decades.
> 
> 
> 
> I know, you are the reason I tried it. Have you bought any in the last 2 years? Half of it was very fine.
> 
> I also have trouble getting 100% silica at pool filter places (including Wal Mart and Home Depot and Leslie's Pool and Spa, etc.). They are using a different material as silica is considered hazardous.
> 
> Now I go to the aggregate supplier (commercial sand blasters, etc.). THEY know how to give you a specified grain size. They were hysterical I wanted the material for fish tanks.
Click to expand...

Yes, bought four bags last month. There always was silt in it, and it does have to be washed. Time consuming, but good sand once you've washed it.


----------



## punman

Let the sand settle a couple of days on its own before turning on the filters (unless you have already added the fish!).


----------



## DJRansome

Fogelhund said:


> Yes, bought four bags last month. There always was silt in it, and it does have to be washed. Time consuming, but good sand once you've washed it.


I guess I was spoiled by my first bag from Leslie's Pool and Spa (chain). Perfectly clean and evenly 20grain.

I always wash. But with the PFS other than Quickcrete I never got the large percentage of fine grains that had to be washed away.


----------



## iluvmud

Ok so tank has been sitting for a couple of days with air running through it and a heater (filter system should arrive tomorrow) which will them be installed and given another day to ensure it's all clean for the fish.


----------



## DJRansome

Don't forget to cycle.


----------



## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> Don't forget to cycle.


and now................ more to learn........ what do you mean by "cycle"?


----------



## iluvmud

well ****, its ok since I have my old tank running, the guy I bought the fish from said using this should be all that is needed. http://www.seachem.com/prime.php I dont want to hurt the fish so if more is needed please let me know.

mud


----------



## DJRansome

Was your old tank cycled? What are the test results for ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and pH on the old tank?

If it was cycled and you move the filter to the new tank and you don't add any fish...instant cycle.

Prime is a dechlorinator and you need that, but you also need a healthy batch of beneficial bacteria that should be growing in your old filter to process toxins the fish give off with their breathing and their waste.

If you have to start from scratch, here is an article on fishless cycling.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/f ... _cycle.php


----------



## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> Was your old tank cycled? What are the test results for ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and pH on the old tank?
> 
> If it was cycled and you move the filter to the new tank and you don't add any fish...instant cycle.
> 
> Prime is a dechlorinator and you need that, but you also need a healthy batch of beneficial bacteria that should be growing in your old filter to process toxins the fish give off with their breathing and their waste.
> 
> If you have to start from scratch, here is an article on fishless cycling.
> http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/f ... _cycle.php


maybe by previous owner, I bought it used and had all his old stuff in it, i just filled it added prime rand it for a bit and tossed fish in.........

Thanks for the link ill read up on it.

Also, readng the Prime label it says that it Detoxiﬁes ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate......... not well enough I am assuming?


----------



## DJRansome

What are the test results on your old tank for pH, ammonia, nitrites and nitrates? If they are good then your old filter is established with beneficial bacteria.

Prime has a great rep but I don't think anyone believes you don't have to cycle your tank if you use Prime.


----------



## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> What are the test results on your old tank for pH, ammonia, nitrites and nitrates? If they are good then your old filter is established with beneficial bacteria.
> 
> Prime has a great rep but I don't think anyone believes you don't have to cycle your tank if you use Prime.


Ok so I just bought a test kit (guy gave me one but said Id never need it.... looked like he had had it for years) and here's the results....

Current tank

PH-7.6 
Ammonia, 0-.25 
Nitrite 0-.25
Nitrate 5

New tank,
PH-8
Ammonia-.5
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0

Filter delivery date got pushed back to Tuesday instead of today (2day shipping my ***)

looks like I need to fix my PH levels (I see they have stuff to buy at the store) and seeing no Nitrate so it appears I dont have the bacteria needed to attack the Ammonia.......... am I correct? I saw somewhere to add a little food and it will help in creating bacteria....

This sound correct?


----------



## DJRansome

Food will work but it will take longer...first it has to rot and then you have the six week cycle with toxins that can kill fish during most of that time.

Don't change your pH...8 is fine and even 7.6 is fine but don't move them directly from the 7.6 to the 8. 0.4 is too much of a change all at once. Do a 50% water change on the old tank so the new tap water and old tank water will mix and give you a bump of 0.2 if you move them the next day.

When was the last time you did a water change on the old tank and what percent was it? Your old tank filter is producing nitrate (evidence of beneficial bacteria) so I would move the filter over when you move the fish.

Test your tap water and post the results. I'm thinking you have ammonia in the tap water. Not sure where the 0.25 nitrite is coming from.


----------



## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> Food will work but it will take longer...first it has to rot and then you have the six week cycle with toxins that can kill fish during most of that time.
> 
> Don't change your pH...8 is fine and even 7.6 is fine but don't move them directly from the 7.6 to the 8. 0.4 is too much of a change all at once. Do a 50% water change on the old tank so the new tap water and old tank water will mix and give you a bump of 0.2 if you move them the next day.
> 
> When was the last time you did a water change on the old tank and what percent was it? Your old tank filter is producing nitrate (evidence of beneficial bacteria) so I would move the filter over when you move the fish.
> 
> Test your tap water and post the results. I'm thinking you have ammonia in the tap water. Not sure where the 0.25 nitrite is coming from.


I can certainly do that, so youre saying I can move over my fish now?
I should wait till my actual canister filter arrives right? It wont be here till tuesday, BUT would it help to get the good bacteria if I maybe dunked some of my old tank's gravel in my new tank or dunked my old tank's filter into the new tank before then?

I also remembered that I did add aquarium salt to the new tank (the old tank has it in there but not as much as new tank since I had removed a lot of water from the old tank so I could move it (about a week ago).


----------



## DJRansome

Then do a water change on the new tank and don't add salt.

I'd like it better if there was no nitrite reading on the old tank. A dunk won't help anything. You could use your old tank's gravel (rinsed in tank water) in your new tank's filter in place of some of the media. I would wait for it and run both filters on the new tank side by side.

What happens when you test your tap water for ammonia?


----------



## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> Then do a water change on the new tank and don't add salt.
> 
> I'd like it better if there was no nitrite reading on the old tank. A dunk won't help anything. You could use your old tank's gravel (rinsed in tank water) in your new tank's filter in place of some of the media. I would wait for it and run both filters on the new tank side by side.
> 
> What happens when you test your tap water for ammonia?


Full water change? The old tank has salt in it as well just not to the degree as the new. I had been using it since the fish got that white fungus stuff (dont remember) and it's been using it ever since. I can gradually introduce the salt into the old tank to sync it up with the new water if you are trying to get the salt levels equal.....

Also the tap water has 0 ammonia.

So pending the answer on the salt, does it make sense when the new filter comes in Tuesday to add gravel to those ceramic bricklet thingies and run the old over the tank filter with the old filter too?


----------



## iluvmud

well checked again......... there is ammonia in our tap water.


----------



## DJRansome

What is your pH from the tap? You don't want to add salt with every water change unless you have to. Try testing the nitrites again too.

ceramic bricklet thingies? I would put the gravel in mesh media bags (buy at your LFS) and use it as media instead of the purchased media. It has beneficial bacteria and you need all you can get.

I scrolled back to see you bought a Filstar XP. They have plastic baskets. The bottom is filled with sponges that come with the filter. The top has a fine filter pad you change with every cleaning. The middle you fill up with whatever you choose...in your case I would use the bags of established gravel for a month after you are stable...then you can swap out portions every cleaning (like 3 months) for the purchased media.


----------



## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> What is your pH from the tap? You don't want to add salt with every water change unless you have to. Try testing the nitrites again too.
> 
> ceramic bricklet thingies? I would put the gravel in mesh media bags (buy at your LFS) and use it as media instead of the purchased media. It has beneficial bacteria and you need all you can get.
> 
> I scrolled back to see you bought a Filstar XP. They have plastic baskets. The bottom is filled with sponges that come with the filter. The top has a fine filter pad you change with every cleaning. The middle you fill up with whatever you choose...in your case I would use the bags of established gravel for a month after you are stable...then you can swap out portions every cleaning (like 3 months) for the purchased media.


What is your pH from the tap? - will check and post

You don't want to add salt with every water change unless you have to. Ok, on the next water change I will not add salt didnt know that it wasnt an all the time thing.

Try testing the nitrites again too- out of the new tank or old or tap?

I scrolled back to see you bought a Filstar XP. They have plastic baskets. The bottom is filled with sponges that come with the filter. The top has a fine filter pad you change with every cleaning. The middle you fill up with whatever you choose... thought it came with their brick thingies (dont remember what they called them)

in your case I would use the bags of established gravel for a month after you are stable...then you can swap out portions every cleaning (like 3 months) for the purchased media- I can do this....


----------



## DJRansome

Nitrites from both old tank and tap. This is the only concern...if your old tank has a good crop of beneficial bacteria...nitrites should be zero.


----------



## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> Nitrites from both old tank and tap. This is the only concern...if your old tank has a good crop of beneficial bacteria...nitrites should be zero.


Gotcha, the old tank had a water change last Monday which might be contributing I will test both now.

Another thing that I had been doing wrong this whole time was when I'd wash off my filters, I was using tap which would kill any and all bacteria in there so the bacteria might be needing to regrow in there too.

In other news I think that lone yellow lab is going to die soon I see him/her huddled up just under the surface of the water next to/behind all the hoses..... I can't move anything so not sure what I can do with her/him...


----------



## iluvmud

update, PH levels from tap are 8, good news, nitrites in old tank and tap are showing 0


----------



## iluvmud

well another update, looks like the good bacteria are in the new tank.... I just checked ammonia .5 , nitrite, slightly greater than 0 but less than .25 , nitrate 5


----------



## DJRansome

OK bad news that ammonia in new tank is growing. How is that happening? No fish right? You are not adding ammonia?

Good news that you don't need cichlid salt, so do 50% water change on your old tank.

When the filter arrives Tuesday put in the gravel bags and run the old filter (with established media) on the new tank alongside the new filter and add fish.

Don't buy any more fish until the new tank has been stable for a month (ammonia=0, nitrite=0 and nitrate slowly increasing).


----------



## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> OK bad news that ammonia in new tank is growing. How is that happening? No fish right? You are not adding ammonia?
> 
> Good news that you don't need cichlid salt, so do 50% water change on your old tank.
> 
> When the filter arrives Tuesday put in the gravel bags and run the old filter (with established media) on the new tank alongside the new filter and add fish.
> 
> Don't buy any more fish until the new tank has been stable for a month (ammonia=0, nitrite=0 and nitrate slowly increasing).


understood, question about the ammonia, it is to my understanding that Prime converts ammonia to ammonium which is non toxic to fish and that the water test does not differentiate between the two correct? How am I to really tell if the ammonia readying is correct?

the reading might be higher on the latest test because I let the water sample sit for about 30 minutes vs 5 in the original sample....

also, I might have a problem as the lip on my 75G tank is way thicker than my OTB filter system so I might not be able to even use that media........ I will try but it might not be possible. Also any thoughts on that DrTims one and only stuff? Read it's supposed to be really good but will not use it if it is not needed.


----------



## DJRansome

If you use prime and your ammonia reading is 0.25 you are good. Anything higher and you have a problem.

You have to read the tests exactly at the time they specify...I set the timer to remember to look at the right time.

Take the media out of your HOB filter and put it in the baskets of the Filstar. The established bacteria in this old filter are like gold...find a way to use it...even if you have to cut it to fit in the Filstar baskets or even let it float loose in your tank (not the best, but better than nothing).

Many years ago when Dr. Tim's was sold by Dr. Tim (it has since been bought by another firm) and it was sold refrigerated, it seemed to work well. Since then maybe a head start but not a fully cycled tank. You have a better head start than that with your established filter media.


----------



## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> If you use prime and your ammonia reading is 0.25 you are good. Anything higher and you have a problem.
> 
> You have to read the tests exactly at the time they specify...I set the timer to remember to look at the right time.
> 
> Take the media out of your HOB filter and put it in the baskets of the Filstar. The established bacteria in this old filter are like gold...find a way to use it...even if you have to cut it to fit in the Filstar baskets or even let it float loose in your tank (not the best, but better than nothing).
> 
> Many years ago when Dr. Tim's was sold by Dr. Tim (it has since been bought by another firm) and it was sold refrigerated, it seemed to work well. Since then maybe a head start but not a fully cycled tank. You have a better head start than that with your established filter media.


Awesome thanks so much for the info... you and this group have been a huge help!!


----------



## iluvmud

well........ so i got in my aqueon 1650 circulation pump...... installed it in my new tank and just went across the back( I have a wall of airstones) and uh........ it basically turned the tank into a giant whirlpool. I had read on there somewhere that 1650 would be good for 75G.... i dont think my fish are going to like being blown away, that and I cant see anything as my tank is now all bubbles as the pump is blowing them everywhere.

Im thinking of stepping down to the 950 as I worry that even the 1250 will be too much.

thoughts?


----------



## DJRansome

Total GPH (include circulation pumps and filters and any other devices) should be 10X or less. I do not use circulation pumps...just the filter.


----------



## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> Total GPH (include circulation pumps and filters and any other devices) should be 10X or less. I do not use circulation pumps...just the filter.


well this thing is way off.......


----------



## Aaron S

I personally like the circulation pumps because it helps me to get the poo stirred up in places where my HOB's can't really get to. The 1650 is a 1650gph flow rate and DJ is suggesting something closer to 750 gph so even the suggestion of the 950 may be too much. I can't remember what flow rate I ended up getting on my 125gallon tank.

One comment though, your circulation pump should not be pumping bubbles. If you have a bubble wall on the entire back wall then you will need to put your circulation pump towards the front (or otherwise somewhere out of the bubbles).


----------



## iluvmud

Aaron S said:


> I personally like the circulation pumps because it helps me to get the poo stirred up in places where my HOB's can't really get to. The 1650 is a 1650gph flow rate and DJ is suggesting something closer to 750 gph so even the suggestion of the 950 may be too much. I can't remember what flow rate I ended up getting on my 125gallon tank.
> 
> One comment though, your circulation pump should not be pumping bubbles. If you have a bubble wall on the entire back wall then you will need to put your circulation pump towards the front (or otherwise somewhere out of the bubbles).


yeah, I took it down and will look into possibly getting the Aqueon 700, but for now it seems as though the Filstar pump itself is moving the water really well.....

I have not used the media that was provided (the little brick thingies- only given like 4-5 so I will need more) instead I put in gravel from my old tank and cut one of the filters from my smaller tank and inserted it in the pump as well.

I have added all the fish but the larger yellow for fear that he will kill the smaller one.... without him in there all the other fish are doing well. my plan is to buy about 3-4 more yellows and put them in my smaller tank with the smaller yellow for about a month then move them all into the larger tank. At that point I can start looking into getting a peacock and other male fishies.....

Another thing is my tank is really bare now and I need to add stuff for them to hide into. I like the look of the terracotta pots that some have done and I might go that route (lots cheaper too  )

I will test the water in a couple of days and see how it looks.


----------



## DJRansome

You should put all of the media from your old filter into the new filter.

You may want to test now and every day until you are stable. Things can get out of hand quickly if your tank is not cycled.

Is your ammonia still 0.5?


----------



## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> You should put all of the media from your old filter into the new filter.
> 
> You may want to test now and every day until you are stable. Things can get out of hand quickly if your tank is not cycled.
> 
> Is your ammonia still 0.5?


Scared to test now.... lol I just got in from being out and I'll test in the am. I didnt remove the 2nd filter media from the old tank because I dont have a replacement for it and there is still a fish in there, but will if I have no other choice. also remember this was a HOB filter so it was just that felt piece and the carbon and the red plastic looking grates in there. in this particular filter it has two of the pads and two plastic pieces so i luckily had a spare filter pad and was able to remove a pad and cut off all the felt and keep all the carbon out and then added a couple or net fulls of gravel into the filter as well.


----------



## DJRansome

Hmmm. Why not cycle the tank with ammonia before adding fish?


----------



## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> Hmmm. Why not cycle the tank with ammonia before adding fish?


not sure I follow?


----------



## DJRansome

Since you need the old filter and old substrate for the old tank (which I did not realize) they are not really available for the new tank. Thus...back to the ideal method of cycling: fishless cycle with ammonia.


----------



## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> Since you need the old filter and old substrate for the old tank (which I did not realize) they are not really available for the new tank. Thus...back to the ideal method of cycling: fishless cycle with ammonia.


Half right, I was able to use one of the old filters and a large amount of the gravel.... I had added so much gravel the one filter would barely fit into the canister tray.

Also I checked ammonia levels and they are still at .5 nitrate is at 5 now


----------



## iluvmud

Ammonia is down to .25 so it looks as though things are improving.


----------



## iluvmud

well, thought I'd revisit this to start trying to figure out what fish i can add to the tank when the time comes.

I have mentioned the peacocks which I will get one and will ask about females when i order him but a guy locally is selling

some 2" Severums and I understand theyre another docile type of cichlid. he has 2 gold, 2 red shoulder, and 2 turquoise ones about about 2" in size so would fit in with my current stock.

PS I had to re-home my large yellow lab as he started attacking the smaller yellow lab and then once I removed the lab he started attacking my acei... so he had to go.


----------



## DJRansome

The severums grow to 12" and prefer a pH < 7. I would not mix with African Rift Lake cichlids like peacocks (Aulonocara from Lake Malawi) who like a pH closer to 8 or even above 8.


----------



## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> The severums grow to 12" and prefer a pH < 7. I would not mix with African Rift Lake cichlids like peacocks (Aulonocara from Lake Malawi) who like a pH closer to 8 or even above 8.


Oh ok great thanks for that info! Back to original plan!!

Thanks again!!


----------



## iluvmud

time for an update.... fish tank is going well. and nitrates came up which to my understanding means the good bacteria is present and it was around 20ppm so i went ahead and did a water change.

with that I picked up a few fish. My LFS didnt really have any decent sized yellow labs so i picked up two smaller ones and a fish that was in the same tank as these guys and the fish guy was under the assumption that it was also a yellow lab.... Im sure it's not but have no clue what kind of fish it is... here's a pic if you guys can help identify it that would be great.




And since i re-homed the big yellow lab as he wanted to attack the smaller lab then my blue aceis when i removed said smaller lab i now have 7 fish including the pleco (can/should you have more than 1 pleco in your tank?).

anyways so far they all seem to be fine, the smaller lab hangs out on the left side of the tank, that orange fish on the right.... and then they'll come in the middle of the tank once in a while and have a dance fight then go back to their business, or the now dominant blue acei will jump between them and run one off (like peace keeper)

and it seems they both have claimed one of the smaller labs for themselves keeping them for the most par in the back corners of the tank or next to their dwelling (as you can see in one of the pics) but usually when the lights are off thats a different story.

i thought it might be time to add maybe the last fish type that i can to the tank (or second to last) and I have been looking at some of the cichlids that are out there but of course know nothing as to what is best with what but these so far are fish *** seen that I liked and wondered if they would be ok in the tank

OB peacock- confirmed yes
Lemon Jake peacock- confirmed yes
Severums- confirmed no

here are some others...
White top Hara -
flavescent cichlid
red empress cichlid
white knight ahli
venustus cichlid
petrochromis

all i got for now. I understand that it will be a 1 male to 3 female ratio so for right now one bright male and his 3 lady friends and I will gauge the activity in the tank after that...

which brings up another question.... do i need hiding spots for ALL of them? I have some decorations that have a large area to hide in but with those it takes up a lot of space and thought of buying those smaller ceramic rocks with holes in them and building a tower type thing with many many holes in them just dont know if them being on top of each other is a good thing.

suggestions?

Thanks again,
MUD


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## DJRansome

OK time to refresh our facts. This is a 75G which is a 48x18 rectangle right?

And you wanted Acei, Labs and OB peacocks as a minimum? Mixed gender?

So the new orange fish is not a lab...it is Metriaclima estherae or red zebra and they crossbreed with yellow labs, plus may be too aggressive for your peacocks.

Are you still going to add the peacock species? I would choose either OB or Lemon Jake but not both. Peacocks crossbreed so one species/tank if you are having females.

Empress and Venustus would be better in a 72" tank.

Petrochromis are from Lake Tanganyika.

From your list I am liking the white knight alhi given your other choices.

For the mbuna, they like many more hiding places than you have fish...ideally the male has a patch of substrate surrounded by rocks and the females have a maze in the rock piles overhead.

For the peacocks and haps like the ahli (really fryeri) you want more open swimming space.


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## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> OK time to refresh our facts. This is a 75G which is a 48x18 rectangle right? -* correct*
> 
> And you wanted Acei, Labs and OB peacocks as a minimum? Mixed gender? - *correct if possible*
> 
> So the new orange fish is not a lab...it is Metriaclima estherae or red zebra and they crossbreed with yellow labs, plus may be too aggressive for your peacocks. -*this sucks, guess I'll be rehoming him too*
> 
> Are you still going to add the peacock species? I would choose either OB or Lemon Jake but not both. Peacocks crossbreed so one species/tank if you are having females. _*-ok, well i found a breeder who will sell me a Lemon Jake male and 3 females, the OB guy will only sell males so Lemon Jake it is*_
> 
> Empress and Venustus would be better in a 72" tank. *-Theyre out*
> 
> Petrochromis are from Lake Tanganyika. - *Im guessing that's a no.....lol so theyre out*
> 
> From your list I am liking the white knight alhi given your other choices. - K i liked this fish quite a bit...
> 
> For the mbuna, they like many more hiding places than you have fish...ideally the male has a patch of substrate surrounded by rocks and the females have a maze in the rock piles overhead. - *can you post an example?*
> 
> For the peacocks and haps like the ahli (really fryeri) you want more open swimming space.* -This is kinda like the Acei as you stated previously they like to swim around correct?*


Thanks! I replied to all your comments in your quote....

So then I can keep the fish I have and add the Lemon Jake Peacock with 3 females, and/or the White knight or possibly remove the yellow labs and get the peacocks and alhi and they will not need as much stuff in the tank? Is this correct?

Oh and remove the Metriaclima estherae if he is too aggressive or along with the Labs if I go with the 2nd option i listed correct?


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## DJRansome

Yes 1m:6f of the acei, lemon jakes and fryeri should work.


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## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> Yes 1m:6f of the acei, lemon jakes and fryeri should work.


man i was hoping to go for your 1/4 ratio as quoted before



DJRansome said:


> 48x18 is a 75G...be sure to get the rectangle shape. In a tank that size you could do:
> 1m:4f yellow labs
> 1m:4f acei
> 1m:4f OB Peacocks


ah but you did mention that if I only did 3 males to do 1/6

id rather have 4 colorful and 16 not so colorful vs 3 colorful and 18 colorful....lol

could you suggest another fish that would work with this setup?


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## DJRansome

Acei, yellow labs, peacocks and fryeri I was originally thinking with 1m:4f of each. But actually I forgot that fryeri hybridize easily with peacocks. So maybe another blue hap like Placidochromis electra or Protomelas Steveni Taiwan?


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## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> Acei, yellow labs, peacocks and fryeri I was originally thinking with 1m:4f of each. But actually I forgot that fryeri hybridize easily with peacocks. So maybe another blue hap like Placidochromis electra or Protomelas Steveni Taiwan?


Is the fryeri the white knight fish?


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## DJRansome

Yes.


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## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> Yes.


This is different than the white Socoli cichlid right? These fish are nice. It don't know they're temperament....


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## DJRansome

It is different than the socolofi who is a mbuna and would be aggressive with your peacocks. You want to stay away from mbuna.


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## iluvmud

Thanks DJ, So i took your advice and ordered Protomelas Steveni Taiwan 1M/3F (how they come from the supplier I found), added them in a few days ago, now the water turned a little hazy which I understand is bacteria bloom and seems to be normal (looks like its clearing already).

Outside of that, I need to get rid of that orange fish....like you said. I was going to move it into my new tank but it's not quite ready(checking for leaks now) I noticed that my yellow lab has been hiding in the back corner but then noticed his muzzle was a "flesh" color but didnt see anything on Google about it, until today it looks like they got into it and it looks like there's a chunk missing off the top of his head  or maybe it's something else??

can you tell what it is?



Thanks in advance
MUD


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## DJRansome

I can't see a dip in the head, so I will take your word for it that there is a chunk missing. That's never good. I'd remove the orange guy immediately even if you have to put him in a breeder net for a day or two until he can go elsewhere.

The white lips are more normal...the fish fight by locking lips and the color disappears in the area. Is the white on his muzzle on his lips or above his lips?

Are your test results good? Ammonia=0 and nitrite=0 and nitrates around 10ppm? That will help him heal.


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## iluvmud

yeah, the water is good..... as for the flesh color, it's his lips and a little above it.

also, if you click on the images i posted you can expand them full size and can see the damage. Poor guy, I'll admit though he is a turd too just apparently not top turd when it comes to those two anymore.


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## DJRansome

I would post the pics in illness.


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## iluvmud

DJRansome said:


> I would post the pics in illness.


It's seems to healing up I can see some improvement since locking up the other fish.


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## iluvmud

So quick update, I got my 46G tank setup in my office and did the 50% water change from my established tank into the 46G during a water change and moved the Metriaclima estherae into it. oddly enough he seems to be doing pretty well in there by himself BUT I think it's time he got some tank mates. Since the move the yellow lab's scars have seemed to heal up nicely and he is trying to rule the roost again, albeit not as aggressively as the Metriaclima estherae.

So I happened to go to a local Petsmart to grab some dog food and thought I would look at their fish and was surprised that they had a couple of nice sized fish (2-3" mark) and also a couple of smaller fish that I'm not familiar with. Can you guys help identify them and tell me if theyll be ok with either of my tanks? Preferably the 46G since there is only 1 fish in there.

These are the two larger fish, the orange looks similar to the one I already have but am not sure.

can you make these guys out?



here are the smaller
This one looks like a convict and if so he will stay in the store 

and this one I am not sure what it is (sorry for the blurry pics, the little guy wouldnt sit still)



Anyways, would any of these be ok with the hybrid, or if not in my main tank which consists of 3 yellow labs 1M -2F(it looks like theyre females), 2M Blue Acei, and 4 Protomelas Steveni Taiwan (1M 3F)

Thanks in advance,


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