# Biotodoma Cupido



## everlast

Just looking for some information regarding stocking and male female ratio.
How many in an 80 gallon and what ratio for a perfect colony setup ??

Thanks in advance guys


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## Cichlidman14

I would do a nice group of 6-8 and add a few schooling fish such as rummy nose tetras or columbian tetras. Of about 5-6. Also a 5 corydoras would be good such as the sterbai.


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## notho2000

Hi, I came across some really good information on the Seriously Fish Site. An aquarist named Joe McElheron (joemc) from Ireland has provided most of the information and he speaks from first hand experience, having bred the fish successfully. Here's the link.
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/biotodoma-cupido/


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## joemc

hi, that is me here on this forum!!
I put up a utube channel with the videos I took of the spawning process, not great quality, but they show the process
here is the link
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHtQqo5 ... ture=watch
If you have any questions shout away and if I can I will answer them, I agree with the previous poster regarding numbers, they are definitely a fish that should be kept in groups to see the best in them


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## joemc

and here is the link to the thread on this forum
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=250334


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## everlast

Wow.....tons of info...thanku thanku


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## notho2000

Thanks for replying Joe. I've had 'cupido' several times over the years and never had much success with them. They just didn't seem to be able to compete with other species for food and territoriality (is there such a word?). I think it's the numbers that were the problem. Two or three just wasn't working. But with the kind of information you're providing, I think they will be doable. I'll be picking some up at the first opportunity. Can't wait!! Thanks again.
Jim


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## everlast

Ok so Im gonna go with eight then...I currently have 12 columbian tetra , 1 bristlenose and 2 siamese algae eater in the tank.
My ph is around 6.3
I have sand substrate with beechwood branches and my water is clear but tannin stained, I have a load of jungle val growing around edges and some large river rocks...oh and frogbit on top which provides a little shade.
Would maybe like to add some leaf litter ??.....what do you guys reckon 
Gonna scrutinise nitrite and ammonia levels also.


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## joemc

good choice on the group of 8, if the option is available I would take young fish over adults, I have seen fish about 1.5 - 2inch body size available in the shops, these are this years fry
on the nitrite and ammonia, these should always be zero, keep the nitrate low with water changes and filter resins, in my experience there is nothing that beats regular water changes!
Re the leaves, I like the look of leaves in my tanks, just watch that they do not end up buried in the substrate from the cupidos sifting the sand, though they do not move it anything like some of the other earth eaters like Santoperca or Geophagus species, they are real earth movers!
Good luck with the fish and please post pictures of them once you have them in your tank
joe


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## everlast

Ah thx joe 
I wondered of the 8 what would be best m/f ratio .....was gonna do 3-5 but this might make things a little volatile


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## joemc

I would not be too concerned regarding the ratio of the sexes, if you buy young fish it would be next to impossible to sex them with certainty, bar venting them, my group of 15 consists of 6 males and 9 females, (I had 16 but I lost one fish a month or two back, it got spooked and jumped from the tank)  
I have not noted any bullying or bashing in the group, males and females, they all get along fine living as a loose group, you will see the occasional facing off between fish, but never any harm done, having a decent sized group also probably helps disperse any potential for one individual fish to be the whipping post of the others.
When it comes to spawning and two fish pair up they defend their territory firmly, but I have never really noticed another cupido try to invade it, they seem to know the boundaries,... unlike us humans!


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## everlast

Hey Joe....can you give me any pointers about water temp, spawning sites , plants...etc
There aint alot of people that have succesfully spawned these little guys so seems like your the guy with the blueprint 

Oh and I was gonna throw in a little male bristlenose alongside my female but could this cause the biotodoma concern??
Am I right in saying you had some angels in with them also??....how did that work??


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## everlast

Infact ignore my further questiong....got all my answers from your youtube videos Joe 
Thanks again ...invaluable info and thanks to moderator notho2000 for the heads up 

Just finishing a hardwood stand *** been building to house both my 80 gallon and another two additional tanks ..(17 inch cube and 20 gallon long)...all going well shall be used exclusively for breeding , fry etc ^^
Yeah, I am extremely optimistic  
This is gonna be an exciting journey


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## joemc

Don't forget to post pictures!!!
on another note, I notice you are in Scotland, not a million miles away from west Cork in Ireland, if by any chance you have difficulty getting good fish and happen to know someone coming this way let me know (e.g. trucker) and I have some young available I will give you a group.
I will take a quick video this evening of the tank as it is now to give you an idea of how the fish look now and what else is in the tank.


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## everlast

Ah that would be awesome Joe
Yup I will keep u posted with pictures and videos for sure. 
Should be within the next fortnight that I will be up and running


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## everlast

Hope Im not jumping the gun but I just watched the video you posted Joe.....very impressed and quite surprised by the size of some of those cupidos and there are so many 
The more I see of them just makes me more enthusiastic about the whole thing, I notice how nicely balanced you have shade and light in the tank....could be vitally important at keeping the little guys relaxed 
Gives me alot to think about .
Thanks again, very much appreciated


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## dwarfpike

I know I was shocked the first time I saw adult Biotodoma ... I couldn't believe their height and thickness. Maybe because the babes are such slow growers. Made me rethink how big a tank they'd need for sure.


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## everlast

Just to update this, I have been so busy building a new stand for my 80 gallon and it took way longer to get everything in place. Lost a load of plant growth to the switch but they will come back ofc....had to prune everything right down. So yeah Im pretty much ready to go with the biotodoma. Im gonna really encourage the frogbit for shade and probably black out much of my lid to allow more areas of shade (joes tank has excellent use of light and dark ). My tank is all DIY as is my stand, my lid is a peice of custom cut polycarbonate....which works well but really allows the light to blast into the tank, could be too much for the biotodoma.

Need to add a few more round stones (ill put a few in where I manage to create shade..........its all a bit too bright atm) 
What temp did you recommend Joe...I currently keep temp at 26.
Here is my tank and new stand...all DIY job....but yeah I am concerned by the lack of natural feel to my tank...probably some leaf litter and maybe some moss around the place could calm it down a little.....the jungle val and frogbit will provide nice shade once it grows back...wont take long...what ya reckon Joe??..........Im open to any advice or pointers.









Yeah and I have the 17 inch cube to the left also for emergencies/fry
**gotta be optimistic**


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## everlast

As for filtration I have 1000 lph external cannister filter and a 600 lph hang on back ....these filters have been running for around 9 months 
I have two heaters...a 300 watt and 100 watt...seems a little overkill but its cold up here..lol


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## Bamboo

I love these guys !!! These are insane ... they were perfectly fine with crazy acidic and PH of a whopping 3.0 !!! NO JOKE !! but ...... I don't recommend that , LOL !!


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## everlast

Ah ...lol.....well my tap water is around 6.2 straight out the tap and water on west coast of scotland , ayrshire is very soft .......was a huge factor in going for these little guys


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## joemc

hi, sounds like you have water to suit these fish, i am typing from one of thosse little smart phones and cannot see the images you have postes, so i will reply in full lter to whTever questions you asked.... ps sorry for the bad spelling...my fingers are just too chubby for the keys on the sxreen!


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## joemc

Hi, nice job on the stand, colour coordinating bases etc . puts my Frankenstein setups to shame (well that's what my family call my tanks!)
temp in my cupido tank is around 25, it goes up or down a degree at different times of the year
my tank looks darker, with lots of shade due to the poor lighting I use and the fact that I have a home made background that I built into the tank, I built it like a riverbank, curved outwards towards the surface, like an overhang. It was built using polystyrene, cut and melted to shape, then painted with epoxy resin and coated with layers of different sands, grit and peat, it gives the tank a shaded dark effect, and now as it ages and gets coated with algae it looks very natural.
you can darken the tank a bit by adding black card or similar to the back and sides and maybe laying some black card on sections of the glass covers, that should give you the dappled shade you seem to be looking for, just moving it about till you get the look you want.
more boulders and chunks of roots will help with breaking up the open tank look and should help the fish settle and feel more confident, I have found though hat the F1 cupido in the tank have much less fear and shyness, and are less likely to bolt if startled.
thanks for posting the pictures and the update, always good to see how things are progressing
joe


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## everlast

Ill mess around with different ideas to achieve more shade........the frogbit used to carpet the entire surface which really worked well, it shouldn't be long in growing back. With regards feeding Im going to start my own cultivation of tubifex worms as I have read great things about the nutrition from them and the encouragement to spawn this can have on the fish. Anyways, thanks again Joe, Ill update this once I have something worthwhile to show ya mate


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## everlast

Update on this, completely reworked aquascape ......Ill post tomorrow......got it really nice for the biotodoma ..plenty of territories, shaded (potential spawning areas)....really happy. Anyway I started thinking that maybe 8 would be too much for my tank so I have 5 coming on Tuesday morning...2 male 3 female. Ill add to the colony next month once I gauge my stocking.
Ill post tomorrow


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## everlast

So below is setup which I reckon should give the little fish a nice array of territories and round the back of the large rocks is a nice shaded and hidden potential spawning area out the way. Not sure whether I should have gotten the 8 like I said but I am aware that alot of folks are quite surprised by size and thickness of these fish once mature so we will see how it goes.
I have flake, catfish/algae pellets and a little tubifex culture kit coming so I have a constant supply of live food, I like the earthworm idea Joe but dont have any grass/soil in my garden 

Ill post a picture of them once they have settled in......the fish are a good 3" and Ill have 2 males, 3 females.


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## everlast

Ok got five today........and in retrospect I should have got more...(gonna get another five in a few weeks ^^)..they are only little and I totally underestimated my tank size (its 55x17x17 inches) 
There were all struggling a little after shipment but are coming back round.....Ill post some pics tomorrow bar any disasters in next 24 hours


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## everlast

One of my little uns.....what age do u reckon Joe??









And below a close up of the little male who is definitely boss ....hes holding a patch of turf in middle of sand.....gutsy little guy...there about the same size as my columbian tetras....just over 2 inches.


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## everlast

Sorry tried last post from tablet ...what a mess..lol...ok here is one of the young uns in clear photo.....what age do u reckon Joe??









And yeah a close up of the male who's definitely boss of the little colony


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## joemc

hi, tks for posting an update, it is hard to estimate the age of your fish, if you sitck up more of the group in the tank it may be easier, but saying that the first shot of the full fish looks about 3 months old, their eye is way out of proportion to the body when young .
I measured some of my young offspring from eggs laid on the 1st of April are between 7.5 and 8.5 cm total length average and offspring from eggs laid on the 2nd of june are on average 7 cm total length , If that is of any use to help you guestimate their age
Please keep the updates coming, it is great to read them, esp if you get a few more to add to the group
cheers
joe


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## everlast

Thx for checking by Joe...its appreciated, your input is extremely valuable. It is still only early days for the fish only being day three....they are all doing great by the looks of it but they arent feeding on anything I put in to the tank at feeding time.
However I purposely only have one bn pleco and no other bottom dwellers so I am putting bottom dwelling foods in at feeding times which for most part lie on the bottom but they are getting eaten at some point Im just never around to see it 

The little fish are doing the eartheater thing and pecking away at the sand all day.....will they be getting enough from the sand?? ..... I am feeding my high quality flake to rest of the tank and the cupido are getting a little mix of algae wafer, brine shrimp tablet and catfish pellets.

And yes Ill post more pics of the fish in my group...and for sure I will be getting some more


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## everlast

This is three different fish Joe


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## joemc

hi, good to hear they all sifting away, that's them looking for food, offer them lots of different foods to encourage them to eat, as they sift the sand they are removing the food, regular small feeds are good as they are not really a fish that stuffs itself in one go, they pick away all day long, you will know that they are feeding well when you start to see them produce waste, keep an eye out for that as it will be an indication of how much they are eating and their general health.
one of my favourite foods for young cichlids of that size is lobster eggs, once they get a taste for them they will devour them and they are great for pumping them up and filling them out a bit.
getting greedy now. how about a little video!
cheers
joe
off the top of my head here is a list of the foods that my fish are getting at the moment
earthworm flakes
tetra prima
new era mini pellets
live daphnia, Cyclops, chopped earthworms and cherry shrimp
frozen lobster eggs and frozen Mysis shrimp
decapsulated brine shrimp eggs, ( just soak them for ten minutes and syringe them into the tank)
I think they eat better than me sometimes!


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## everlast

more excellent info Joe........ok so I have another three coming Friday which gives me the eight as I previously planned 
Im uploading a little video as I type this so Ill post it as soon as 
Great to hear your ideas and get feedback Joe
Cheers mate


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## everlast

There we go Joe...short but gives you a better idea of where there at, any feedback is always welcome..good or bad 

And there is the sound of my phone at the end so dont go answering your phone 

**another three coming on Friday to give me the 8 strong colony**


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## everlast

I have currently a pair of angels in the tank with em but I may move them on and add a shoal of mid/top level fish like pencilfish. The twelve columbians kinda hang around middle with odd nosey around bottom and top ....and the biggest of my algae eaters likes to hang around the cupidos...I think hes become aware that they unearth some edibles..lol
I have noticed too however that the angel pair helps bond the little group so yeah haven't made my mind up either way ....sometimes a little turf war keeps everybody's mind on the job so to speak..lets a cichlid be a cichlid....maybe


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## everlast

So really been trying to encourage the growth of my vallisneria and frogbit to give more shade in the tank....before I took tank apart to move it to the stand the surface was covered creating some awesome shade , Im sure it will come back :thumb:

I also added some indian almond leaves into my HOB filter just to add a little extra to the water and sure enough the water has taken on a little yellow tint which looks really nice and this morning the little biotodoma have been having little territorial disputes, one in particular is having a nibble at all the others (will this be dominant male ??)
Im taking this as further good signs that the fish are comfortable and settling into typical colony behaviours.


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## joemc

thanks for posting the video, enjoyed watching it.
I would guess now looking at the video that they are hitting the 3 month old mark alright, they are a little bit on the thin side, but that will disappear very quickly now that they are in their permanent home, plenty of small feeds will do the trick, that and plenty of water changes, the giant vallis and the frogbit will also help with the water quality, both are very fast growing plants and will suck up nutrients from the water column, once the vallis takes off it will grow very big giving you the shade you want.
I would suggest not just lights off for a day with the new arrivals but also maybe a juggle about of the existing décor just before the new cupido are added to the tank, it will disturb the existing five's advantage in the tank and should help the group mix and settle in together
tks again for the updates


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## everlast

Cheers Joe, they have been really goin at it over everyones own little peice of land..lol....alot of colour changing too. Mostly just flaring and chasing but see one lip lock for a few seconds. So without getting my hands in the tank and unsettling stuff too much I am going to put a couple of large coconut shells with large holes in em and just position em in the open area that all the fighting seems to be about. Ill also throw in another beech branch or so to break things up. Thats the plan anyways...heres hoping


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## everlast

Another three additions in tank today.......should calm things down a bit..the extra few branches and shells seems to have worked. Also noticed alot of waste from my group of five and eating alot better. Made a little wormery out my backyard from a polystyrene fish transit box. Getting food past the tetras isnt easy but hopefully with more confidence the cichlids come up water column a bit to feed also ...Ill keep u updated Joe... (been daily accounts so far, Ill calm down a bit once things settle down....I do get carried away^^) :lol:


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## joemc

good stuff! it's good to hear the next 3 arrived, keep an eye on them that no one individual gets picked on, but I would guess they should be ok.
oh an keep the updates coming with a scattering of videos and pictures, always interesting to read
tks
joe


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## Mr Chromedome

Hi guys, I was reading through the thread, and just noticed that you were keeping the _Biotodoma _at 25-26 C. You were also commenting on the very slow growth. Just thought I'd let you know, many years ago Ginny Eckstein, a well known cichlid and catfish enthusiast at the time, told me about a group she had in a 240 gallon tank. She said they grew quite rapidly if you kept the temperature at 82-86 F, which translates to about 28-30 C. Weidner gives 26 as a normal temperature for the blackwater species _B. wavrini_, but does not specify for _cupido_. However, he does comment that the _cupido _eggs hatch in two days at 28C. He also describes the habitat for _cupido _as still, shallow, sandy areas. Places like this tend to stay quite warm, often 3-4C warmer than the deeper channels of the same river or stream.

I kept some _B. cupido _"Santarem" some years ago, but they were near adult when I got them. Turned out I had all males, a common occurrence with _Biotodoma_. I kept them around 82 F, and they were very active and even came to the surface to eat. However, they were kept by themselves, and Weidner also comments that more aggressive feeders are not good tankmates for the species.


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## joemc

ah, great to see another keeper of these fish entering into the chat.
I thought I had put to bed the old myth of only males being available, caught, found in aquariums!
I have looked at cupido, both adults and sub adults in aquatic shops over the last 6 months and could always see both sexes, I have yet to see a tank of cupido containing only males for sale
I don't think I don't think I said that they are a very slow growing fish, maybe slow to mature in comparison to some other eartheaters
Yes cupido are found in higher temps, they are a very widespread species and are found throughout the amazon region so are probably found in both higher and lower temps, I keep my young and adults in temps on average 25, dropping drastically with large water changes and rising slightly in very warm weather, the young I kept back that are 7 months old are averaging 8cm in length, theses are growing faster than the original group I bought. maybe one of the factors that can affect the young growing is periods without food? could this knock them back a bit? 
All my fish shoot to the surface to feed and feed in midwater when food is added, but they then go back to their sifting habits once the lid is shut on the tank, I would guess that Everlast's fish will do the same as they settle in to their surroundings and become more confident
On the wavrini, I have never kept them so can't really comment


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## everlast

Ah thx for input chromedome......in relation to your last comment joe ..the part about singling out one individual. 
They did....the smallest one got a bit of a beating....I think he/she gonna be ok..its hiding behind some plants and is being left alone. I am able to target it with food without grabbing attention of other tankmates. Its smaller than the rest.....looks younger..all head and eyes..hopefully he makes it...cant help but think its a female. There are two dominant fish......one from each group. The three I got have settled far quicker than first grpup exluding the little battered fish....ill post soon with pictures of full group.


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## Mr Chromedome

Exactly how are you sexing these _cupido_? The only visible difference between the sexes that I am aware of are the blue markings below the eye. Males have solid lines, females have spotted patterns. I've never seen these markings clearly on subadult fish. Weidner clearly shows these differences in his book Eartheaters. As far as taking a long time to mature, Weidner reports 18 months from hatching to maturity, which is rather long.

With larger groups it is more likely that both sexes will be found. 30 years ago, you rarely saw more than six in a store at one time, as the cost was high for a relatively colorless fish, and they were usually juveniles. So if you are looking at mature fish, it is possible you will see some females. But there was a definite preponderance of males in the species, which in the past made it almost impossible to find females in the hobby. I haven't even seen any in the Midwestern US in 10 years or more.

As for the temperature issue, they have the same habitat throughout their range, so the temperature is going to be consistently warm. The range is actually quite narrow but very long, along the main course of the Amazon, with a couple of extensions along tributaries. There is a distribution map in Weidner. There is also the fact that some fish identified in the hobby as _cupido_ were likely sp. "Guyana", as many fish were exported from there 40-50 years ago before they shut down the export business to protect many extirpated populations.


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## joemc

I sex the cupido by body shape, size and subtle differences in the length of fins, in a settled group they can be sexed by their behaviour and interaction with each other. I have yet to see the so called spots / stripes scenario, maybe some population of cupido show this, but I have never seen it, none of my fish show facial marking differences that can be connected to their sex.
I have not read Weiners book so can't comment on the pictures of the fish.
I have seen fish advertised as, Peru, Santarem, red fin Santarem, etc and saw some pictures by Heiko Bleher showing Biotodoma from the Rio Jari showing different colourings, I don't think I have ever seen the form 'Guyana' doing a quick google did not bring up any pictures of that form


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## joemc

would it be possible for you to post a video or some pictures of your group of all male fish?


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## Mr Chromedome

Only shot I have scanned, the other pictures were too dark. This was back when pictures were still taken with film, I used to shoot a lot of slides. Problem was, you shoot the fish, wait about two weeks for the slides to come back, only to find out that your settings were wrong. This shot was taken at a friend's house in Milwaukee; I had taken the three fish to him, as he was very experienced at breeding Eartheaters. He was one of two people in the US during the early 90s to have bred Satanoperca daemon, and had bred several species of Geophagus. He was the first to tell me about the blue marks as sexual indicators, which he learned from the other Eartheater specialist.

The population came into the US as "sp. von Santarem", and made a splash because it was much more colorful than the _cupido _we had previously seen (which were often misidentified _wavrini_, as well). It was later identified in Weidner's book as _B. cupido _Santarem. I reread the section in the book, and he only specified this population as having the sexes identified by the blue markings. Having seen your videos, I can clearly see that it doesn't apply to all populations. The book was published in 2000, but is still very useful for habitat and range data.

The sp. "Guyana" is not commercially available, as fish are still not legally exported from that region. Only a few have been collected by individuals in the last two decades. Like many fish from that region, it resembles the fish found in the Amazon basin, but is geographically isolated from them, and has different breeding habits. It could be the fish responsible for the reports of pit spawning, as reported in 1984 by Kuhlman. Arendt reported in 1995 that cupido spawned in a more typical substrate fashion, on rocks.


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## everlast

I was told by my supplier that the fish were sexable.....ofc this should mean that I too should be able to discern between the sexes. I am pretty confident I have identified my three males andcfive females. Ill post some photos and my own observations. So nteresting......thx guys


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## joemc

tks for the picture mr chromedome, I remember well the click, click, finish the roll off to the chemist, . a week later going to collect the 24 pictures only to find blurs, flash reflection or to hear the chemist read out the pack notes and tell you the roll was spoilt!. the youth of today don't appreciate the advances in taking photos!
the shot you posted shows a beautiful fish, it is a pity it is of only one fish, it would be easier to guesstimate the sex if there were more to compare it to, but if I were to put any money on it I would have said it was a female based on its body shape and on its fin length, I have still to be convinced about the spots / stripes.
I must make the effort to borrow a copy of the eartheater book a mate of mine offered to lend it to me on a number of occasions, I just never got around to taking him up on the offer, I know it is still regarded as the best reference book available, I would love to see a revised and updated edition being published.. as would many I would guess, esp seeing the price an English language edition goes for now that it is long out of print.
The Kuhlman paper I am familiar with, it I read a shortened version a while back when I was trying to crack spawning these fish, it was one of the reasons I added a wave maker to my aquarium,. however, now after reading the full version of the paper and what I have learned what comes to mind is the expression '' paper never refuses ink''...... re read it and let me know by pm what you see! and I will then give you my thoughts
the second paper I am not familiar with , I would really appreciate if you could forward me on a copy.
someone in Germany ( I think) recently sent me on some papers / articles on cupido including sp santaram, to be honest I have just not had the time to read them in full, I only just scanned over them I will root them out if you are interested and send them on to you.
tks again for rooting out the picture, I am still laughing as I think back to the old point click and wind on days. now that is progress


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## everlast

I havent forgot about posting just been busy......fish are eating and growing .....you will notice a change in em....ill post at weekend


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## joemc

Looking forward to it, I have to catch a group of young out of my own tank this weekend to give to a friend, not really looking forward to it, I planned it pretty badly, a few other people had asked me for some so I set the adults to spawn, so now there will be chaos in the tank two pairs guarding spawns and me trying to fish out 6 or 7 young, I am tempted to syphon out the fry, but they will not be freeswimming, I reckon both spawns will hatch out tomorrow


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## everlast

Sorry for not getting more footage...havin issues with kids losing phone/ tablet usb cables 
Anyways..fish are doin great ......feedin really well and are comin up water column when I come to feed...not out hustlin my big tetra yet but its comin 

Still have the one fish who looks stunted and stressed..he is eating but just hides...doesnt go near the group....I spot feed em..im hoping he can grow bigger and get some confidence.

One question joe....I was gonna add in a cacautoides apisto pair.....wild from the rio nanay like my biotodoma. How does yours generally respond to the apistos and the cupido to them?


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## joemc

hi, I am not sure about adding a pair of cacs, they breed very easily, you could end up over run with them in the tank!
I added a few wild Apisto macmasteri redshoulder a good while back to my cupid tank, since then they have broken my heart , I would rather have a tank of snails, they have bred like rabbits, I cannot keep up with removing them, I would guess that at the moment there are about 30 plus adult to sub adult apistos in the tank, along with I don't know how many fry.... time for a big removal again! my frogmouths will welcome them!
As if I didn't learn my lesson with the apistos recently I added a pair of Nanochromis transvestitus ( nothing biotope correct there, but I have been developing a liking for some of the west African cichlids), thinking ahh sure they are tiny, they will never be successful at raising a spawn in the tank. well now I have the adult pair, about 15-20 1.5 cm juveniles and the adults with another clutch of eggs!
regarding how they get on, it is just like any apisto or small cichlid, they are not a problem and don't bother the cupido or any other fish until they are protecting a spawn or group of fry, then the female behaves just like you would expect and fends off any fish that comes too near, in so doing reduces the available free tank floor space for the cupids.
if I were to do it again I would add a species that is know to be a difficult one to get to spawn, then if they did produce fry I would accept it, maybe one of the Dicrossus species, a group of them would look pretty cool in the tank..
just my thoughts and ramblings!, I think I better just go and set a few traps now and remove some apistos and Nanochromis


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## everlast

Awesome Joe 
Yeah Ill give it some thought.......I took the angel pair I had in the tank with cupids and put em in there own tank as the male was being hard on the cupids...female had laid eggs. Anyways eggs didnt make it, think male ate them....in there own tank now and have succesfully laid , hatched fry...they are free swimming atm ..Im just gonna let it play out as it will..hopefully male doesnt eat em but we shall see..so far so good . 
Ok back on topic......yeah It was just an idea, dont wanna take floorspace away from cupids . they find it hard enough as is not to engage in brawling 
I still feel I could make the tank a bit better with regards to layout, wood, territories....Ill keep u posted mate. 
Thanks as always Joe


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## RobertCupido

Hey Guys! Hi Joe,

I wrote a message to your Youtube account some weeks ago, with my questions about the cupidos since you truly are a very valueable source.

Right now I have 11 biotodoma cupido in care. The first group consisted of 6 fish, 4/2 but one suddenly female passed away after spawning like 8 times in a row. I guess they're from santarem from the looks but cant tell for sure - all of my cupidos come from aquarists who were overstrained with these fish.

To my group of 5 I added another 6 from a friend 2/4 i guess. Have to guess because he started with 11 and came down to 6 in bad shape. One "female" turned out to be male in very bad condition. Two of his females where taken from a pond of some other fishkeeper and they are the smallest of all. One female had a hole in her head, others did have spots and all had their bellys turned inwards. They are recovering very fast, i tread them with vitamin sirup (for children actually) and add a mineral mix to the water. I guess they dont like open tank setups and prefer lots of hiding spaces. If there are bigger fish than them, they feel very stressed.

That extra tank might come in handy to separate the leader for a while, i did so and now the other male are emerging with filaments and the group will be more heterogenous.

I am having trouble to originate the different variants. I guess my group is from santarem, another looks like rio nanay. But from other keepers I learned, how much the appearance can change according to their individual biography and also simply with aging. I would be thankful for photos of juvenile and adult, male and female cupidos where the origin is known.

Yesterday a pair of my cupidos spawned right under my easy close to the front of the tank. Beautiful act, i will upload video and let you know. So the eggs always got eaten, this time i reduced the pressure of other tankmates and took care for more oxygen. Guess thats vital to the development of eggs. Temperature is around 26°C in the morning and 28°C in the evening because my water cooled LED-Lighting and the PC are heating the tank. Seems fine for the fish.

Because another female started bulldozing in a different tank at exact the same time but with totally different engagement of mine into the tank, i think spawning might occure in relation to changes of air pressure like with corydoras. So if there is a low pressure coming in, it'll animate the cupidos to spawn. Any similar experiences?


















Maybe itll work out this time. End of the year I am going to have 3 tanks, two of em reserved for found couples of cupidos. I am going to experiment with enviromental conditions and hopefully get to successful breed these beauties


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## joemc

Hi Robert, great to see another cupido keeper joining the chat, I think I replied to your message on utube? I hope I did, otherwise I am embarrassed!
on the cupido from different regions, I would prefer where possible to keep them separate, who knows, will some of them be given species status of their own somewhere down the line?
good job on the spawnings fingers crossed they get it right this time! 
the images you posted don't show on my computer, so I can't comment on them
tks again for posting here, between us all we will figure out the mysteries of this species!


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## RobertCupido

Hey Joe, hey guys,

you did reply of course, I asked wether they take newly hatched brine shrimp right the way. Now the eggs are 31 hours old. I can see small black dots marking the eyes. She fanned of quite a number of eggs but there are still plenty. I think they already might hatch today. Incredible, the nest is 5cm away from the front of the tank! Cant i upload directly to this forum?


















On my PC its working.

I still can distinguish my individual cupidos, Im not sure the differences are due to origin or simply how they were kept. I have two males from the same group with totally different shape of the rear spot and its white surroundings. In the morning, the cupidos also appear different than in the afternoon. Filaments depend on feeding and rank in social hierarchy i guess. If there is already one male claiming more than his share of the tank, colouring and showing off, the others supress the filaments. Take the leader out, or just turn off the lights for one week and the others will grow up to the same stage.

Mouth and lips are different in the group I tend to think is from rio nanay but that could also come from malnutrition. They dont show as much colors yet. I put them together but so far there are no pairs between the variants. If I am lucky and able to give away young fish some time, I cant put a label on them. I dont even know where mine came from, thats why I asked. The people I got them from didn't care or ask. I got literature from Uwe Werner, Rainer Stawikowski and Wolfgang Staeck - german cichlid specialists who took pictures of cupidos of different origin. At a friend of mine I was showed pictures of wild caught adults, their F1 in early age and than adult. All three seem to show different fish. Direct relatives, sometimes siblings, and yet different colors, shapes, behavior because of nutrition, age and enviroment.

Id be glad to post some pictures here, where should I upload? As you guys I had problems sexing them at first, the more you spectate and read about it, the more intense the details appear. I talked to a lot of cupido keepers, thats the way to figure out the species. When it comes to the "all male" story, I think thats a myth. They are rare, ok. I had to search for 3 month to get a group for a reasonable price (120 Euro for 6x10cm incl. shipping over night). I came to these because a friend of mine has 10 F1 in care. He got them from another friend who successfully bred one pair in a community tank with altum. When I first saw these small earth eaters very peaceful, almost shy in the 350L Tank, I immediatly fell in love. So they work in small numbers as well as in large groups. Another problem with keeping the line might be the scheme I already encountered quite some time: 10 Fish are bought, 5 survive and are given away so the next owner must stack up. If you dont know the origin of your group thats a problem. Furthermore if you do know their place of birth, who tells you that the Seller does know exactly? Sometimes they just label them "Brazil". Or maybe theres "Santarem" or "Sunside" suggesting a more colorful variant which truly is from venezuela or even colombia because of strict import laws or other reasons. I hope, I can sell strong and robust F1.. if the "Santarem" or "Nanay" label is that important, one has to buy the stressed and sensible wild caught for 30 Euros (5-6cm) from trusted channels instead of the nameless F1 for 10 Euros off me. Nonetheless, I am working on identifying the variants.

After a couple of month in care now I know my 11 individuals so there is less chance of crossing. Ill keep you updated!

Cheers


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## Mr Chromedome

Images on this forum have to be uploaded to a photo sharing site first, then linked from there. It's the only Cichlid forum left, so far as I know, that still does not have direct upload capabilities.

If you do not have a dependable origin/location name for the line, it is best to just refer to it as Aquarium Strain. It is a shame when this has to be done with rare and beautiful fish like the _Biotodoma_, but it is better than putting the wrong name and letting them get mixed with known lines. It doesn't really reduce the value of these fish, as they are rare enough that even getting a tank bred line is a treat. I just bought some _Retroculus lapidifer_ that are F1, but without a location name. They are still my greatest current treasure.


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## RobertCupido

Which would you recommend? Flickr? So you cant see my pictures either? They're uploaded to a german forum.


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## Mr Chromedome

Were the images linked from that forum? Some forums block image linking because it ties up their band width. Flickr is one of the services I've seen used here, also Photobucket. Both work just fine.


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## joemc

> Now the eggs are 31 hours old. I can see small black dots marking the eyes. She fanned of quite a number of eggs but there are still plenty. I think they already might hatch today. Incredible, the nest is 5cm away from the front of the tank


that is a great opportunity to take some pictures or video, hopefully you sill catch some of the action!
as the eggs hatch they come away from the rock, first in ones, twos then in batches as the female continues to fan them, she seems to get highly agitated at this stage, even stressed, it is at this stage that some are lost to any fish that can predate on them , fish like tetras etc that nip in and take the odd one, once all the eggs have come away she then proceeds to collect them and deposit them in a nest dug out in the sand or in a gap between stones, they look like a greyish mass of jelly at this stage and you can see the eyes clearly 
another thing I would suggest to try to increase the chances of survival is a night light on the tank, or a room light left on just to provide the female with another aid to protect the eggs
good luck with them


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## RobertCupido

Thanks Guys! So heres my Flickr Gallery, of course have I taken pictures and Video! You don't know it, but I've taken a lot of your writings, helped me with how to put the behavior of these incrdible fish.

























Right under my eyes! This was really amazing. I could watch the eggs develope, of course a had a night light for better guarding.


































I really wish I had a better lens for magnification. Now as soon as I can afford, i will get a macro for following Breeds. For the close Ups, I turned the Wideangle around and mounted it with some cheap adapter. Its ok, but now I regret not having better optics with more depth of sharpness. Hope you guys enjoy and I can spectate a little longer. The female really is doing fine and a great job guarding.

Ill keep you up to date!

Edit: I see it doesnt display the picture, hope you can follow the link! Annything I can do about that?


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## everlast

Awesome.....more cupid owners to bounce ideas around with.
Im behind you guys in that I have a newly acquired colony of young fish, anyhow they have came on so much since I first posted photos/video of em.
The little one who I thought I might lose is lazarus...lol....dont know how but its back and is hanging with the group and is giving as good as "she" is getting 
I asked for three males among my five females and yeah I have three larger fish which are growing slightly faster than the rest , they also have a very slightly different body shape and spot and black stripe are faint but the three of them are controlling there own section. One to the left side, one on the right and the one in the middle is trying to hold down the middle but is finding it hard due to the squabbling females who hang in this middle area. (I might of course be wrong, just reading behaviour and any concurrent body shape/size differences)...... 

a little group shot..dominant male on this side has back to camera....they congregate towards me when i kneel down at the tank...not shy at all...even attack the syphon during water changes  









Male? on right holding down centre ground with what I think is another female









Male? that is holding down the right side 









The little female who I thought I had lost..shes settling into the group now after weeks of spot feeding/hiding ...used cattapa leaves in HOB filter to provide some medication to help heal her fins which were really bad...so happy she made it 









These are just my opinions to date guys and I might be completely wrong but I totally adore these fish, colours are improving every day


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## everlast

RobertCupido said:


> Thanks Guys! So heres my Flickr Gallery, of course have I taken pictures and Video! You don't know it, but I've taken a lot of your writings, helped me with how to put the behavior of these incrdible fish.
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> Edit: I see it doesnt display the picture, hope you can follow the link! Annything I can do about that?


Awesome photos Robert!!......cant see them but if you right click "Copy URL" you can paste direct links into address bar ...easy to follow from there 
I really need to "naturalise" the inside of my tank.....as I also said to Joe previously you guys have such natural looking layouts...inspiring stuff you two


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## RobertCupido

They are indeed!

Im not sure if its due to inconsistent light but i think the "male" you spotted, turning away on the picture, truly is more colorful and already kind of showing off. He might already present edgy fins. With the other... no clue. So far more "female" than male. In that age, both sexes tend to be territorial if they feel, they can step up to the claim. Except for the late one, they are really looking good! Did they mention the origin? The last one still has a very big eye in relation to his body, belly looks a bit turned inwards.

You can throw in the catappa at all times, not just for medical treatment but more for preventing illness and raising comfort. As soon as my tree drops a leave its going in. The green algea spots indicate nice water though. Id trade the valisnera (plant) you have for echinodorus and anubia and consequently dim the lighting. Throw in more brown leaves (oak and beech, they dont dissolve fast) and keep an eye on nitrat. The tank is very bright and that might be suitable for the spectator but hindering the fish in growth and color. Sexual dimorphism is always a kind of claim, they have to be brave for that. The darker the tank, the less recognised and exposed the fish, the less effort they put in hiding what might be stressful when always visible.

I have another tank with malawi cichlids. When starting it, i had to put in fish very early (glass needed to reglued) and system was not running well. Produced cyanobacteria and still does but Im towards recovey and a stable system. But a couple of month ago it was so bad, I decided to totally darken the tank for some days and cover it. Before the cover I had like one or two alpha males of each color and kind, supressing the others. After 4 days of darkness and relief from being so visible, all the other males developed.

Same thing with the cupidos. I took out the leader and suddenly my other males grow a lot stronger, more colorful and even bred. So darkening might help. I have a nymphaea glandulifera, lots of Epipremnum aureum and monstera deliciosa that tend to grow into and cover my already dim led lighting (considering the height of the tank of 60cm). Its paradox, but with this dark setup I see more of the fish. Your tank everlast, looks beautiful, but in effect it provides like only 2 spots that really feel supercomfy if the cupidos want to hide. These spots will be fought about and yoou might release energy for growth if the cupids dont have to worry about safety so much. The suggestions are just hints though, they're not a must. I think your fish really are doing good in that setup - nice work!

After their first night and day out oof the egg the wigglers are doing fine, there are still about 50 to 80 left from originally 500+ laid eggs. The female is selecting through the developement process, eggs that got fanned off to early or hatched way before the majority were eaten. I was struck with disappointment at first because the spawning pit was abandoned this morning. But she still defended the area and on closer look, she moved the wigglers beneath some moss ball for daycare. Now my LED simulates sundown and she took them back into the pit which she tidied up over the day. The couple was trying to push a moss ball into the pit before spawning and I thought I'd save them from the mistake because they wont get it out once it rolled in. Now Im not so sure anymore if that wasnt on purpose to add a portable hiding and feeding place as furniture into the pit.

Here are pictures of the daycare location nearby and the return to the pit when sundown announced bedtime for the small ones:

















And the parents in full glory:

















As you can see, she pretty much stays juvenile in the looks so your right in suggesting the sex isnt foor sure yet.

Cheers

PS my pics arent shown, can you see them/at least follow the links?

PPS you answered while writing and immediatly got the same idea with the tank setup


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## everlast

Ok I messed around with some black insulating tape on inside of acrylic panel that slides into lighting strip...creating far more shadow...(Joe mentioned about using black card)...worked a treat 
Tomorrow Im heading to my local beech wood to get a load of beech leaves and loads more branches....not gonna disrupt things too much. Just add some features to "naturalise" things a little...thanks guys.
Both of you have really made your tanks natural looking habitats and that seems to be the way to go with these awesome fish 

Ill update soon for sure.

Ill be checking in often to see how spawn is comin along Robert


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## everlast

Oh yeah the origin Robert....these fish are all wild caught from the Rio Nanay in Peru.
Yes the little malnourished fish is actually doing great, he was in far worse condition a few weeks ago.......was almost black, fins all tore up ...on entering the tank he got on the wrong side of my angel male and then the rest of the cupido colony followed suit. Its actually out now feeding with the rest of the group and gives as good as it gets.....seems to have made it stronger ....but yes still needs to fill out. The little one is my kids favourite....the underdog 

I actually wondered if any of you guys had any subsequent biotodoma information ...papers/book excerpts etc. Checked my local library for books but nothing...infact the most information I have obtained thus far was from Joes awesome journal on another forum here on the interworld 
If anyone has anything they deem relevant and in an appropriate format Id be very appreciative and happy to pm you my email


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## RobertCupido

Be careful with the angels! In a friends tank they picked out the eye of a cupido at night now he's almost blind. I also have seen a tank where the company worked and the cupidos raised a breed in presence of angels.

I pour boiled water over the leaves (except the homegrown catappa) and then put it all in the tank. Not too much at the time because it's still organic "waste" and drawing oxygen.

In Germany we have almost famous aquarists that wrote a lot of books about cichlids. I have a big book "South American eartheaters" by Uwe Werner and Rainer stawikowsky. The book puts focus on Natural habitats, described the local variants and gives advice how to keep. I will check if there is a translation.

We also have a very strong structure of organizations, clubs, ngos, enthusiasts. The dcg, "German cichlid organization", has members with a almost any fish in care that can be imagined and is collecting reports, essays etc. Cupidos were also described but not as detailed as in Joes wonderful journal. I took a lot from his YouTube videos as well for interpretation of my fish. You really are in good hands here, once your cupids get grandchildren you'll see how all the puzzle pieces fit together.

I really wonder about all the bs about these fish on the net. Seems like some authors just didn't do their homework. In my Flickr gallery you can see, there is strong dimorphism. This all male myth and different height of habitat stuff is a myth. These fish are all over the place in South America and just rare because they are not as colorful when juvenile. They are the most peaceful eartheaters, they can be held in a smaller tank and in groups. It all depends on the interior. A friend keeps 5 pairs in 350l.

Oh... Put in additional fish to make them feel well. Tetras or mollies, anything suggesting it'll be eaten first and indicating the safety of the open water.

Fry us doing good by the way. Didn't have much time to watch today. Mother is still caring with passion and I'll setup Artemia tomorrow. I'm not sure they can take em already though.

Here might be some cupido I think:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbEX-7s ... ata_player


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## joemc

ahh, missed all the updates, I will have to post a video to show the changes in my stock in the cupido tank and have a good read of all the new posts
your photos are stunning Robert, probably the best documenting of cupido wigglers and fry development on the planet, my hat is off to you on your photography skills. now keep up the great work


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## joemc

here is a video of my cupido from this evening


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## RobertCupido

Wow Joe thats amazing. You know in the beginning I thought I should reduce the company almost to species only level to have them raise the fry. Now while watching both our Cupidos successfully defending in the middle of a crowded tank (yours is even more crowded I guess) I will have to rethink.

Still haven't figured out the right density but there is a lot of tolerance if everything else suits them. A found pair is fine, bigger group also. I also have a pair of Apistogramma blue steel and a lot of dicrossus maculatus claiming their share of the ground. Kind of naturally all the fish make their way around the couple and fry. A beautiful view how the chaos of the little ones is following the mother. I heard from a friend that tried, that separating and raising by hand isnt the best idea. The part that was left in the tank grew better and stronger. I dont know about the exact conditions, how the separated fry was fed and water change... but I think its best to leave them in care of their parents.

Im feeding artemia nauplia and decapsulated with a small pipette. Being used to my hand in the tank, the couple isnt even stressed. With apistogramma I had to convince the mother like 2 to 3 times, that Im a source of food and because of her size she could even eat herself. The cupidos are really smart I guess because without having a try themselves, they figured me feeding their fry is helpful and even focused more on defending me and the small ones from paracheirodon simulans that eyed on the artemia as well.

When feeding, I always put in frozen bloodworms and dry Food before on the other side of the tank to distract the tank mates. I also reduce the current of the eheim filter so that the artemia dont spread to fast.

I update my Flickr reguarly for you to have a look! http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

Cheers,
Robert


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## joemc

again, your photos are great!
I see the belies of your fry are nice and full, now you see another of the myths about cupido dispelled, the fry are not tiny like many authors and internet sources claim :wink: 
there is no doubt about the ability of wild caught fish to protect their fry, even in situations like a crowded tank, hopefully the cupido will never get to the stage of the domesticated angelfish and discus where many cannot care for their offspring.
I have noticed with a number of species that fish raised away from their parents grow slower initially, I generally put it down to the fact that the fry with the parents are constantly feeding on the millions of tiny life forms on the surface of the wood, sand rocks etc in the main tank whereas the fry syphoned out and raised separately tend to be kept in a sterile and recently setup tank without all these sources of food, relying on the keeper to feed regularly, you can see how these fry tend to congregate around the likes of a sponge filter and pick at it, but it just does not hold as much life as the main tank.
the lemon tetras in my tank tend to take the most fry, picking off any strays esp when some are knocked to the side by the cupido while fending off fish like the apistogramma that get too near.


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## RobertCupido

Thanks Joe, I feel flattered!

Due to the rather poor documentation on first sight there are still sexing issues and stuff. Im sure we can clarify a lot as you guys already did before I came to this species. There are still tons of questions!

How fast was growth of the offspring? The wigglers morph pretty fast. When hatched, they were really small like the breed of bettas. But in the past 6 days they grew to 4 times the size at least. There are still 50+ of em I think and probably all of em will make it. Seems the right ratio when both parents are watching. Im not sure though how many eggs were layed. I will print a foto and count the dots while marking.

When did they loosen the bond to their parents in your tank? At what size and did the male lose interest first or did he stick around till almost all the small ones left the group themselves? Did you experience casualties when the fry got further away from the parents?

Since they belong to one "variant" and you didnt recommend the mixing, I will rearrange a bit. I could convince my father in law to get a new tank for christmas and I think I will hand the foreigners (which come from rio nanay in my opinion) to him for further coddling up and eventually breed as well. There are still two that might join my group because they again have different background and seem to fit more into the group I originally bought myself. As soon as I can, I wanted to give away a group of the F1 to keeper I got the run-down fish from. He puts a lot of effort into suitable conditions for them: Setting up a tank just for Cupidos according to my recommendation and adjusting the water with reverse osmosis. We both got the idea, that the F1 generation born and raised in a tank might be less vulnerable and more stable. Whats your thought on that and when to separate a group of ten? The earliest we might move a few in january and he is totally capable of raising since he has regular broods of geophagus winnemilleri and altifrons - he just couldnt cope with biotodoma and also did not know why.

Exciting times!

By the way, is there any possibility to have the flickr fotos in this thread?

Any new Updates from Everlast? I am developing another suspicion regarding the dimorphism. My adult males all show big sidespot in the form of a sqare or at least a circle. There are some females, were the spot appears more squeezed as in here:









and here the one on the left which might be the same:









Im totally not sure and the tank already got dark. Just a flash idea and tomorrow ill be looking at my fish for proof or dismissal.

Cheers,

Robert


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## joemc

hi Robert, the young grow pretty fast as I mentioned earlier, I had fry from Apistogramma macmasteri in the same tank free swimming within a day or so of each other, both were given the same food and the cupido passed them out by a mile, here is a video of the fry at 40 days old, I can see no reason why you would not take them out to raise separately even before then, it was around then that I started to remove some to give to friends. 
http://s429.photobucket.com/user/joemcj ... c.mp4.html 
only one of the guys had problems with the young growing and eating, but once I saw the setup he was keeping them in I saw the cause, nothing to do with the fish being too young or delicate, actually delicate is not a word I would use with the offspring at all!
regarding how long the parental bond stays, it is interesting, I left some fry with the adults, never removing them, that pair of adults spawned again about 8 -9 weeks later again, the female tended the eggs as normal with the male in the outer region of the spawning site, the remaining fry stayed in this area and the male still performed his parental duties with them, the problem I encountered occurred when the new fry became free swimming, the first group of fry thought of them as food and were picking off the strays, but when I syringed in decapsulated brineshrimp eggs for the new fry the previous batch of young darted in at the sight of the feeding tube and devoured both the food and most of the fry :roll: I suppose I should have seen that one coming! so my advice would be to remove the young once the adults decide to spawn again.
Once they hit about a centimetre+ body size I noticed them being more adventurous, spotting individuals straying away to explore the rest of the tank, by 2 cms they were nesting down in their own spot to rest for the night.
the other cupido do not make a serious attempt to eat the fry, plus it does not take the fry long to be too big to fit into the mouths of the other adults in the tank.
cupido in general are not big fry predators, I have had fry from a number of species in that tank, all raising young without major predation by the cupido, that is why I have the macmasteri 'pest problem' in that tank!
regarding sexing them, I just thing of them as any other earth eater, I find them easier to sex than subadult red head Tapajos I don't think the side blotch has any bearing on their sex, this varies in size fish to fish and with mood.
I don't consider the fry to be small at all, once they have absorbed the egg sac and are free swimming they are similar in size to the average Apistogramma fry, I have other fry here in tanks at the moment that I need a magnifying glass to spot, now they are small !


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## everlast

Short video to show how group are feeding, also noticing more colour coming out on em everyday 
And getting fatter, even the little one who was struggling a little is eating better and hanging comfortably with group 

Im going to be doing a complete rescape over next few weeks...Ill keep u guys posted


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## everlast

I was looking at my photos of the young I took when I first got em in September and they are growing as fast as any other cichlid I have had....if anything faster, I was expecting alot less growth from what I had read tbh.

I took out alot of the vallisneria tonight .....wasnt growing very well after I replanted it (think it got a shock from when I took tank apart in the middle of the years..never really recovered). So yeah I took out alot but did leave some , dont want to cause any drastic change in water chemistry.
Yeah so I have some perspex I got from a friend and I am going to make some kinda background as well as introduce more wood, beech/oak leaves) a few smaller rocks ...get rid of the large boulders....(taking up valuable territory space) and yes it seems anubias is the way to go if Im introducing some plants.
Also have applied some black tape to light shield which works well and is completely adjustable.

You guys have inspired me no end so thanku 

With regards my fish they really are grouping up more ....really got the feeling of a little colony now...can have a little spat but then hang out together afterwards. The little one who was being picked on is a real little meanie..lol....takes no nonsense


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## RobertCupido

Awesome vid, good to see they're doing fine! What are you feeding them? Is that artemia? If so, you might consider another brand because they look really pale. Go foor the red ones. In Germany, we have artemia farms who collect and freeze them in themselves. They look like still alive.

Maybe I interpreted size of the fry to be small because they looked so very vulnerable after hatching. Right now my Apisto blue steel couple is steeling one or another but they might be big enough to not be anyones prey very soon. Havent seen Apistogramma fry that young because they all spent their first days in a coconut or some other cave. Now at night I noticed, the father is guarding above them. Also over the day, he has a huge share in taking care of the young.

Right now Im setting up a new 400L tank for my father in law, he will get the group of 4 cupidos that dont really fit in with the rest. A lot of work! Ill post the pictures.

Cheers Robert


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## joemc

Great video, I love to see other peoples fish tanks!! thanks for the update
it looks like the fish are really settling in and becoming a community, I see they are now heading upwards and not waiting for the food to hit the bottom, it looks like frozen mysis shrimp that is being fed?
Robert, on the size of the fry, in the greater scheme of things I think all fish fry are small! my youngest child was on his hands and knees the other night with a magnifying glass looking at fry in one of my small tanks and he said 
'' to think something that small has a brain, heart and all those other organs, I wonder how small their scales are'' ......... 
it does make you appreciate nature and how amazing the living world is.


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## everlast

yes it is indeed frozen mysis shrimp ....next up is the rescape.......more shade...more territory 
Cheers guys

Peter


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## joemc

looking forward to it Peter
Robert, how are the fry doing now, they must be filling out now, I would guess that you can see the florescence green/blue markings now on them
joe


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## RobertCupido

Sad news guys, somehow I poisoned almost all the fry 

The morning some days ago they already were reduced to half of the 60, the remaining were either not moving or suddenly spiraling irradically in all directions and a welcome breakfast for the tankmates. Around 10 survived , I blamed it on the food but it was the same thing next morning with different diet (cyclops instead of decap Artemia). Now there are Only 2 left, I tried to save the victims from being eaten into another tank but most of them didn't make it.

Now I am still clueless what happened. I changed some of the filter media a while ago. Right before the accident I installed a powerhead with floss to clear the water.

Maybe I interrupted the biological filtration and the fry died because of h2s? No other losses in the tank.

It was a sad Christmas.


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## joemc

dam! that's disappointing, but chin up, there is no reason why the adults will not spawn again in the next 7 to 14 days, any time I saw a pair lose their fry or eggs for whatever reason I noticed they spawned again very soon after, feed them well and keep an eye on them, I will be surprised if you do not post again very soon with news of another spawn


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## everlast

Ah ...sorry to hear Robert...but yeah as Joe said they will be in about it very soon no doubt 

I am still soaking a load of oak branches and have a load of oak leaves and other twigs etc ...all waiting for big rescape, been removing my vallis bit by bit so I wasnt removing everything in one go, dont want to affect water chem too much. Gonna make corners almost pitch black with patchy light in the front centre. Dont think I am going to bother with any plants in the new rescape......been gradually upgrading my filter media too over the last few months 

Oh I have a little query guys, I have one of my larger more dominant fish who seems quite stressed at times , colouring is blotchy about 50% of the time and seems to be a little lethargic. When it jumps back into normal activity its colouring changes instantly back to normal and it seems fine, it is feeding fine and otherwise seems strong. 
Could it be simply stress and fatigue due to territorial conquest?? (alleviated with my new rescape idea??)

Oh and happy new year guys

Peter


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## joemc

hi Peter,
if the fish is not showing signs of an injury, not feeding or excreting poorly coloured / formed stools I would not stress about its behaviour, cupido individulals will often settle down during daylight hours and take on that mottled colouring, it is nothing to worry about, they may look like they are ill but to my mind are only taking a break, in a sort of resting state, it is interesting to watch, individuals in a group may do this at any time of the day, looking at them reminds me of other cichlids when the lights in the tank go on, still in their resting 'sleeping' state. if you get what i am saying?
As cichlids go I think this species is special, the whole group intereraction is amazing to watch, the different posturing and posing in the group, the way they interact with each other, there seems to be a whole series of behaviours that the fish go through, males and females showing different behaviour in the way they interact with each other, and different again depending on the age or whether in spawning mode. It reminds me of the well documented behaviour of bearded dragons, the head bobbing, arm waving circling etc
joe


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## everlast

So I got lighting and aquascape changed up........did it gradual as I said, I also added some more sand as it was getting sparse in the corners and these little guys constantly dig around as we know .

I simply used insulation tape on inside shade of my light to completely alter the whole feel of the tank.......corners and very back of the tank are almost pitch black

Its looking a whole lot different , I just used the old beech branches as it was taking so long to waterlog the oak. I did however use some large oak leaves for litter and some twiggy oak brush that was growing out of huge dead oak tree I found. Im over the moon with it and the cupido seem to already be relishing the shade and playing around with the leafs......removing those two large boulders has freed up so much space for all of them.

.....Ill post photo tomorrow once it all settles down

Thanks for inspiration guys


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## everlast

There we go guys...there are some stones hidden in the back...might add a few more...the overall footprint is substantially bigger , more yellow coming out on fish already 
Any pointers always appreciated guys


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## everlast

I may add more leaves...and some boiled extract from leafs....also might cut a little more light out from sides??

What you guys reckon??...........is the three stones in the back enough for any future spawning??

I have two batches of angel fry so when time comes i was gonna choose five of the best and let em go in as a little group of juvies ........if that doesnt work out Ill go with original idea of another "top level" fish such as hatchets or similar.

But ofc its all about the cupido ....if they are happy, Im happy.


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## Iggy Newcastle

Tank looks beautiful!


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## joemc

hi peter
that is a transformation, it looks fantastic, I'd guess you are staring into it endlessly !
I would not stress about adding more boulders, you can add more at any time down the line, chill out and enjoy that beautiful tank you have created but feel free to post a little video!


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## CjCichlid

Informative thread and some great looking setups and fish!

everlast, new scape looks good. My only suggestion would be to add a black background.


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## everlast

Thanks for feedback guys, yes CJ I wish I had painted outside of tank black at the start.....my only way round about it now is to put something inside the tank and tbh its more hassle than its worth 

All I wanna do now is relax, water changes, food and watch these guys grow into beautiful adult specimens


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## everlast

Oh a question for you guys.....Malaysian Trumpet snails query.
I had some in my tank from a few months back but I am convinced the biotodoma are indeed eating them because havent seen a single snail in months. I did drop one in from another tank so I could view there behaviour towards it and yeah they got a hold of it and started throwing it around, shaking it etc so ....yeah...Im unsure.
If I thought they did eat them I may add a few more but I dont want to get it wrong and end up with an epidemic


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## CjCichlid

No need to place anything IN the tank. Before I painted the back of my 135gal I used black felt cut to size and velcroed to the back of the tank. Worked great and is cheap and easy!


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## RobertCupido

Wow great job Peter, Looks twice as big now. Black sheets attached to the back would indeed create more depth in the tank. I'd put in more would, thicker one that's dividing the ground into fragments and creating trenches for the breeding. If you have two or three spots, that are surrounded a bit like a fortress, it's easier to defend. Also sooner or later, the cupidos are going to appreciate when the line of sight is interrupted so that they are not able to see each other constantly.

As Joe wrote, they like to get into the darker colored chilling mode (looks like sleeping color) and just hover in privacy when older.

More sand is always good - I'd go for around 7 to 8 cm. That height creates two layers. First 2 to 3 cm are getting stirred up regularly and there is going to be less and less oxygen the deeper it gets. Over time, the deeper layer is going to get packed tighter. The sand bed is acting like a filter. The first layer thats looser is working from ammonium to nitrate, second one that lacks oxygen is mineralized the nitrogen, consuming it's oxygen. In seawater this deep sand bed filter is deeper, for fresh water I guess 7 cm is quite enough. Snails (that small trumpets, that only come out at night) are doing a great job keeping the first sand layer in change.

Your angels might want some plants like big echinodorus. The cupidos might spawn in the dug out roots of those.

Nothing new from my cupidos, they seem very well and there is a lot of action but no spawning so far. I use the mean time to experiment to get rid of the particles in the water. I added an extra filter with cottage (that might have killed the fry somehow), it works serving crystal clear water for some days but then I have to clean it and there is a lot of dirt. Maybe be careful with the amount of leaves in the water Peter!

Happy New Year to you guys!


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## everlast

CjCichlid said:


> No need to place anything IN the tank. Before I painted the back of my 135gal I used black felt cut to size and velcroed to the back of the tank. Worked great and is cheap and easy!


Sorry Cj I never made it clear...the outside of the tank is already painted a dark red colour, what I meant to say was to change that I would either have to drain and move tank, repaint or put something IN the tank......my apologies for the confusion 

Ah hey Robert...thanks for feedback...I take all you guys say on board...Ill get a video up soon, I bought my wife a new dslr camera for crimbo so some nice HD photo/video coming soon


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## everlast

Another shot of tank which shows a little more of the depth available to the fish now and managed to get all 8 in shot


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## joemc

very nice, the fish look really good, what is your feeding routine for them? also what are you feeding them?
(feeding question is for Robert and anyone else keeping these fish too)
on another note I just noticed that the thread has over 5000 views, that is amazing and to me shows there is plenty of interest in these little fish, now we need to get some of those viewers to start to make space in their tanks for these beauties!
joe


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## everlast

Definitely Joe 

As for feeding I feed them 4-5 times a day.
I feed tetra prima maybe three times ....just a little , four pinches along the length of the tank to encourage natural sifting.
And twice a day I feed 3-4 cubes of frozen food.....(I feed artemia, daphnia,cyclops,mysis)

At night right before the fish go to sleep I throw in some algae wafers.........just a little extra to dissolve into the substrate during the night...also feed my big bn pleco 

I do have 12 very large columbian tetra in there with em and a couple of big SAE but yeah, I do feel I feed too much sometimes but fish are thriving and there is no left over food but what do you reckon guys, am I over doing it??

I also have my temp at 27oC so that might be a factor on the amount my cupido eat.

My water change routine is 20% twice a week .....again probably could be more but seems to be working for me


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## RobertCupido

I'm throwing in like 12 cubes of mixed frozen food and from time to time I add dry food which I got in trade for young fish. Mainly it's Artemia, I heard that saltwater shrimp are housing less harmful microorganisms for fresh water fish. I also use white Moskito larves a lot, they indicate clean water. With blood worms I am more careful. From time to time I let the defrosted food (always dissolved under the tap to get rid of the added water, lot of po4 in) soak in a multivitamin juice from the drug store. I also got the feeling I'm throwing in to much Peter. My setup with the emerse plants is eating up all nutrition immediately. To not let the plants starve I have to deliver a more balanced diet. The frozen food, even watered, contains too much phosphorus which is left over once the plants used up all the nitrate. I'm very lazy with water changes and gotta keep the plants more happy (npk) with the diet for the fish than the latter themselves 

I started to think about seasonal changes. In the Amazon area, most species we keep in aquariums don't have a regular diet. In dry season it's fruits, nuts, detritus - scientists almost solely found vegetarian food in fish, we consider carnivores. When the rain comes, metabolism drastically changes because the diet is switching over to mainly insects, Larven, small fish etc. So I considered at least varying the relation of plant food and frozen insects over a period of some month.

In the summer I only feed living insects and Larves. Now in winter the cupidos still hunt from time to time, the group of 7 shares the tank with thousands small caridinia. They're lazy though, the shrimp really has to move abruptly and be very close to get eaten. They're not chased with that much effort.


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## everlast

Talking of shrimp.......I was going to breed gamarrus shrimp in a little 40 litre tank I have to give the cupids live..moving prey.....what do u guys reckon?


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## joemc

go for it, I regularly feed mine cherry shrimp, they are a very easy shrimp to reproduce, once a colony gets going there is no stopping it, I just net out a couple of dozen and drop them into the tank the fish love them, when cleaning the tank or moving a rock I would often one some shoot out looking for cover only to be swallowed by a fast moving cupido. they will also devour small or chopped earthworms


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## RobertCupido

You can try to settle a population of caridinia in the tank and the filter! They reproduce very fast and if there are enough "dead corners" they will serve as a permanent contribution to the stability of the tank. Mine like to crave near the surface and on wood. At night they're all over the place.


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## joemc

off the top of my head here is what my fish are fed
*staple diet.*
Tetra prima ( also sold as Tetra diskus)
tetra crisps

*Frozen foods*
blood worm
mysis shrimp
lobster eggs
brine shrimp
discus mix
[b]live food[/b]
daphnia
glass worms
cherry shrimp
Cyclops
any random bug that comes in the sweep of the net from my pond or water containers outside

there may be more, but I cannot think of them at this minute


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## everlast

Hey all
Thought I would update things my side with a few photos of my group 

I have added a few more bits of wood to the tank which makes it even better and have my little cherry shrimp tank up and running so shouldnt be too long before we have some live shrimp getting thrown in for the cupidos 

Colours show better in the semi dark areas at the side and less so at the very front


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## joemc

looking good, their colours are really starting to show and they will only get better as they mature, I would guess you are really enjoying them now
ps
your photos are pretty good, 100 times better than I can produce


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## RobertCupido

Wow they're really beautiful! You might see some sharper or rounder fins by now.

I have a female I suspect to spawn in the next couple of days when the air pressure is playing along. Waiting for stormy weather. I will keep you updated.

Your Columbians look very colorful as well!


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## everlast

Thanks for feedback guys, yeah Joe really enjoy keeping these little fish 
Awesome Robert , hope it all works out 

I made an observation today which kinda got me excited, I am aware I have a long way to go before my juvenile group even contemplate spawning .......

However where I had a cattappa leaf in the tank it had flipped up onto its end and had stuck in the sand, one of the cupidos dug a little pit at the base of the leaf and has been hanging around the little holow chasing the others away. 
Interesting behaviour and yeah a little bit of role play from dominant female???


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## everlast

I cant see any noticable difference in the fins of the fish which would clarify the sex of the fish so I might try and get individual photos of em , see if you guys have opinions (if you guys dont mind ofc)


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## RobertCupido

Looking forward to it!

I put my Alpha Male back in the tank quite a while ago and he totally changed all the relations. Now, after 2 days of action and showing off, he got a female that was obviously ready and they spawned together in the darkest corner of the tank.

Now the female which spawned last time is still in indecision. The second largest male kind of bullied her lover out of reach and now constantly accompanies her. Very soon I guess, she is going to accept him. Two days ago she already started digging but the biggest and afterwards second biggest male interfered with persistence. Now it seems, they got their way. I hope its gonna be as visible as the last time!


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## Coriandre

What a great thread with great information. Very hard to find good info regarding this fish on the net.
I am new to SA cichlids and have been into African cichlids for years. I am currently populating a 105 gallon tank with SA cichlids. I started with a group of 5 juvenile Satanoperca Jurupari and a pair of Scalare. The tank has a sand substrat with large pieces of mopani wood, a few plants and a few caves made with rocks. I am looking for calm, less agressive species as a population and visit many fish stores to see what is available. One of the stores had a group of 4 Biotodoma Cupido between 10-14cm in size. Fell in love with the beauty of this fish and I purchased the group. It's been 4 days and they are doing very well. Three of them stick and swim together while the fourth defends a cave gently pushing away invaders. I have no idea how to sex them and there is very little agression between them. I have noticed that when there is a short conflict between two, they open/widen their gills to intimidate. Thank you much for all the great info !!


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## joemc

welcome along Coriandre, again great to see another keeper of these little fish on the forum, stick up some pictures or a video of your new fish if you can, always great to look at other peoples fish.
RobertCupido, how are your fish doing? have you females guarding a spawn now?.... a few more of your amazing photos would not go astray!


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## Coriandre

Here are some pictures. If you have any ideas on male/female, let me know !


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## joemc

nice fish, they will fatten out in no time now they are in their new home, just keep an eye out in case one starts to get bullied by the other three, if would be really good if you could add another couple to the group. I could not see all fish at the same time so I am not sure if I was looking at the same fish twice, so I would only say it looks like you have one male and two females, a side view of each of the four fish would make life easer trying to sex them, they look like they are under a year old, maybe 8-10 months old, good luck with them.... stick up a video if you get the time, tks for posting
joe


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## Coriandre

Thanks Joe,

I'll get individual pictures of them when I get home tonight and try to capture a video. I bet the male is the one in the back facing left on the last picture ? It is the most agressive one (although very mild). It faces the others with its gills open. I would love to get 3-4 more but, it is a fish that is seldom seen here. They feed very well and come at the surface when I approach the tank. Thanks for the info !


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## RobertCupido

Hey Guys!

My guess is that this is gonna be a male - but hard too tell at that age.

I have two females guarding right now. The first eggs should already have hatched. They are very well hidden, the second female also chose a plae with more cover this time. I guess its due to the overall more stressful setting with two couples. The Pit is nearer to the front of the tank - once hatched, Im sure I can get a good view for you all. Heres what it looks like with flash:










Im afraid I cant shoot as much as last time because I dont want to stress her that much (with the flash). I got rid of a lot of tankmates and reduced the pressure further. I also added a lot more structure and hiding places. The males of the two couples really have silenced the whole tank. Nobody wants to get in the way of the breeding pairs. My dicrossus maculatus are too small to pose a thread and I have only one apisto blue steel left. Paracheirodon simulans and Poecilia Caucana are also very small and peaceful tankmates.

Only 1!!! out of the 70 youngsters from the last time survived. He has a size of 2cm right now and is doing fine. I will put him to the others when the young are out of danger - guess in 4 weeks. I have not spotted any wigglers yet, the alpha male is still in suspicion of being infertile... but the female is guarding so I hope it worked out.


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## everlast

Hey there Coriandre....awesome to get more input/photos ....fantastic 

Very nice Robert, love the way she is tucked away in there like that, such a cool photograph 
** think Ill add more wood, more leaves..lol**

Ok guys a little question, I have a tankful of angel fry which I have been selling locally to folks but I was gonna choose five of them and put them in my tank...they are very small atm.
I am thinking /hoping the two cichlid groups just leave one another alone and Ill still have my 12 columbian tetra as dithers.

My original plan was to go with some top level shoaling fish but I may just do the angels instead....my thinking is that it will bring the group together??

Ok here is a few shots of my fish .....not individual like I promised I havent got to that yet but I do have a nice shot of what I think is a definite female,male combo.



















Ok male /female shot......female the smaller one and the larger I beleive is male , if you look at his dorsal it is developing a little point??
What ya reckon guys??


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## Coriandre

Thank you for welcoming me to the Cupido club !

Amazing pictures ! I love the one of the female hidden in her little nook.

Here are the individual pictures









Fish 1








Fish 2








Fish 3 (on the left) and 2








Fish 4


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## RobertCupido

Just to keep you up to date: The second clutch got eaten, probably by the mother itself. Guess she wasn't happy with the spot and to many visitors frequenting around. Also the the male didnt stick around to close - that might have brought up insecurities.

The first eggs of couple one hatched, they're quite a bunch. 100 at least and very well hidden so I can't take pictures by now. I will when they start exploring the tank. Its probably best if there is only one group of fry even if the tank has 2m x 60cm. I started to breed and feed newly hatched brine shrimp Grindal worms will also be fed. Im sticking to living food this time that wont rot in some corner.


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## joemc

nice updates lads, enjoyed the photos 
everlast, yeah, I agree with you the pictures show both sexes
Coriandre, based on both sets of shots I would say female for the first one,
second pic is a male
third picture is a female on the left and a male on the right and fourth picture is a male
Robert, hope the fish do better this time, with a lot of cichlids it does take a couple of goes for them to get it right. So keep the faith. I presume they are now free swimming? I would guess that the 100 you estimated is more like 200! I am always amazed at how many fish swim from the pile of wigglers that the mother minds. what other fish have you in the tank? if your concern was food rotting on the base of the tank last time it may be worth adding some small bristlenosed cats or similar to help mop it up? the last few spawns of mine have not seen live food at all, with the weather cold I have less available to me and have always been a bit lazy with the brineshrimp hatching  
It is interesting that the male seems to have left a female alone with a spawn, I have not seen that happen, but I am sure it would put the female under pressure to maintain control over her young. 
I did have an interesting spawning recently where the male moved to the side and spawned with another female, about 10 inches away and then proceeded to defend both spawns, the females faced off in black colour every time they came face to face, one spawn disappeared at the wiggler stage and the female moved away leaving the other female and the male together with the remaining spawn


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## everlast

Hopefullty this latest clutch of eggs works out Robert, your obviously doing all the right things......your gonna crack it  (excuse the egg pun)

Coriandre I reckon mine and your arent too far apart in terms of age maybe mine have a few months on yours....contrary to what other folks have said mine have grown up pretty fast if you look at my photos earlier on in the topic...I followed Joes outlook on feeding as in more regular/smaller feeds rather than a couple of larger feeds.

Remember my little "female" that I nearly lost way back Joe?.....well Im pretty sure she is a female and she really has been putting onto the other females in the tank. The way it seems is that I have three (larger and thicker) males who hang back in the shadows at the rear of the tank, the females are out front bickering for top spot ...last night the smallest female whom Im talking about was bursting with colour...really stretching her fins out to show off and was indulging in lots of lip locking with the others, its all great signs that they are really embracing colony life and if her display is anything to go by I could see her being the first female to spawn.........or I am being a complete optimist and have no idea what Im talking about


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## RobertCupido

Hey guys,

yes they are swimming free right now:










720L tank is shared by:
7 Biotodoma Cupido 5/2
7 Dicrossus Maculatus 1/6 or 2/5
ca. 100 paracheirodon simulans
ca 20 otocinclus hoppei
30 Poecilia caucana

and the "leftovers" 1 Apistogramma Blue steel, 3 Carinotetraodon Travancorius, 1 Pangio Kuhli.

Oh and I forgot a lot of small snails, 3 species and red fire shrimp. From time to time I find hyalella azteca.

No real thread for the fry I hope and Im going to stick to the living brine shrimp and Enchytraeus buchholzi. Better feed a little less (still 3 different hatching stations for brine shrimp to feed three times a day) so there is less pollution.


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## everlast

Wow...awesome Robert!!....and yet another beautiful and very natural photograph


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## joemc

nice photo Robert, are the fry feeding away now? can you see the full bellies


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## RobertCupido

Hey Joe,

Yes they are taking Artemia nauplia from the first moment they are swimming on. There are still plenty, well hidden in the shades most of the time. Photos will follow when I get the chance for a good shot. I'm afraid to change anything in the interior for a better view and This I won't disturb the couple or water chemistry.

One odd occurrence: a male refuge came very close when he was trying to avoid confrontation with the other males (still a lot of fights for territory and the other female). So he was right in the middle of the fry, took me a second to realize there is one too many "guarding". He was of darker color and didn't mind the fry at all. Obviously for the couple it was a bit stressful having him around but they didn't freak out either until I made a wake up call with flashlight pointed to the intruder.

I get the feeling the cupidos are demanding the space for breeding and the other tankmates respectfully move around the imaginary circle. That didn't work out with the second female so she ate her eggs. But: My fish are used to this certain environment. I'm still amazed how yours are raising the fry in a rather crowded tank, Joe. Did they start off with breeding in more quiet setting or did they not care even as unexperienced first timers? So many times I thought and read the tank should be absolutely peaceful.


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## joemc

hi Robert, at this stage I am guessing you have lost a few of the fry and the parents are now caring for a good sized group of hungry fry that are eating anything that moves! no panic with the pictures, that opportunity will present itself in its own time.
the stock in my tank changes every now and again, cardinals then lemon tetras, apistos, Nanochromis etc etc, but te cupido breed away regardless, the only fish that caused me a problem were the Brochis shoal, they were like little tanks and caused a problem at the egg / larvae stage, disturbing the parents.
the next addition to the tank will be some regain pikes that I have ordered, I have wanted them for a while, but now need tem to deal with the apisto and Nanochromis offspring, they are both managing to reproduce at an alarming rate with a lot of young surviving.
on another note I have been thinking of moving on my group of 15 adult cupido and some of the young in the tank, I will keep some of the offspring just to see how long it takes captive bred cupido to reach maturity and spawn in the aquarium, I would like the group to go as a whole to someone, but would settle for splitting them into two groups..... just need to find a new owner! sort of want to try something different in the tank, I am not even very sure what fish yet, so many choices!


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## RobertCupido

Hey Joe,

I wish it had worked out this way! A lot of turmoil in and around the tank - The fry disappeared again. I guess there is a fundamental problem in the tank. Still not sure if it might be bacteria or salt of the artemia nauplia. Maybe its NH3 (Ph is slightly jumping around 7), a rotten area somewhere... maybe its the broken root of a monstera plant or other residues that get washed out from time to time.

I'll have to give the setup another 6 month, I guess its not that easy to get it working. Every week I change 30% of the water and I have to find a proper way to press the PH under 7. I cant use Phosphor acid because it forms a depot of PO4, the Chlorid in HCL might not pleasure the plants and I have the feeling that the best acids from leaves and turf get eaten by the UV-Clearer.

Thats very frustrating, not knowing what happpened. With Otocinclus and dicrossus I have very sensitive tankmates, the neocaridinia are doing fine so I guess its not some heavy metal.

I changed the order of my filter substrates and I get clear water without having an extra mechanical filter in the tank since then. Im performing more water changes over the course of the next months and to support the plants I have set up a very small dose of daily fertilizer. I think the stronger overall growth of the plants is very vital for the tank - with that kind of mass of organic material in it there might be peaks in the chemistry that overstrained the sensible youngsters. All the other tank mates are doing fine, to the naked I of my aquarists club everything looks perfect. But it isnt - Im working my way to the core though. Threw out the Apistogramma, the puffers will have to go too. I will buy new artemia eggs and even more carefully wash each batch of hatched ones if I again choose to extra feed. Naturally there should be enough to feed of in what the parents are chewing off the ground.

I guess the next try is on the way, I will avoid major changes in the setup and work my way slowly to the tank I want to run. When the fry started to disappear I didnt notice cause they were hidden, after I realised I really thought about a whole new start with sea water. But I cant give up on the cupidos... they are exactly my fish and it is exactly their aquarium. Just a few more adaptations, a stable PH of 6.5 to 6.8 to force immediate reaction of NH3 and sorting out any limits of micro and macro nutritions.

One female again is preparing a spawning place.

It'll have to work out! Here's my loner of the first batch, he is a real mood raiser:


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## joemc

that is a bit disappointing Robert, but the little survivor will lift your mood and tell you you are doing something right, keep at it , they will get it right. is it possible the checkerboards are picking off some of them too?
on another note I gave a group of the first of my offspring to a good friend a couple of months and one has laid eggs, a female of around 11 months old, it mated with a large wild caught male and has got to the free swimming fry stage on a couple of occasions, so there is the info I was looking to find. captive bred females can breed at less than a year old, now to find out how long before the males are sexually mature


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## RobertCupido

Hey guys,

caring a little more for water hygiene seems to work! Furthermore there are a lot of small things like less frozen food, avoiding broken roots of the emerse plants and daily fertilizer that seems to establish a better climate in the tank. At least to the naked eye.

The timespan between spawns seems to shorten. The last was end of january I guess, now tonight the pair spawned again. It was a bit crazy:

The second couple kind of broke apart, now the female is standing with her "ex-boyfriend" again leaving the former second largest male single. Now the fatherhood for the first couple took some substance so this male now is a tiny bit less strong than the former second place. His female is still with him but: The now largest male intervened a couple of times while she layed her eggs and tried to fertilize. Of course the couple aggressivly protested but he might have had his chance to "hijack" some of the eggs. Quite a turmoil.

The other couple will follow soon and hopefully be more dedicated. I'll keep you up to date!


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## RobertCupido

Now the second couple is guarding too, the female retourned to its ex-male. To this date, they were guarding the longest and the spot is pretty sweet for pictures:










The first couple lost some eggs, I dont know if it'll work after hatching.

I got 11 and a half cupdios in the tank. 4 are going to a friend on tuesday. I really hope I'll be able to catch them without any disturbance and stressing the two couples.

I did a water change just yesterday, now the following weeks I will perform smaller changes without additives like leaves or trace elements.

Wish me luck!


----------



## RobertCupido

The first wigglers hatched but I think there are only few left. The female chose a difficult spot and with the interventions of the other male a lot got fanned of right after attaching. Im not sure if she goes through with that small amount of offspring.

The other female has an even bigger clutch:









I tried to feed the tank and spread it all over to support the staying in position but it was quite a lot of stress, attacking and defending. I hope I'll get the 4 Cupidos on monday and tuesday out of the tank to loosen the tension. It'll be 700L of a mess, if both parents are guarding and with that many bystanders.


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## RobertCupido

Hey guys,

it's up and down... she left her eggs. They must have hatched in the night. Almost all were fertilized and very few got fungus. I'm not sure what didn't make her go through but it must have been something with the spot. Maybe it was just too dense with all the company. On the other hand, I've seen a picture of like a million cupidos guarding with a distance of less than 50cm. I'll post it, when I find it - these fish are used to crowded breeding and constantly defending.

The other female is still guarding, I'll just wait and see about the outcome. Im still excited and sure, it'll have to work out some time. Guess I just have to sit back and be patient.


----------



## joemc

hello Robert, again great photos, you really should contact Matt over on seriouslyfish, I am sure he would love to add some of your excellent photos to the cupido profile.
I am not sure what is happening in the tank that the fry are disappearing at a particular stage, is it possible some of the other occupants are preying on them when lights go off?
is it possible you have a rogue parent eating them or other cupido?
re the catching the cupido, whenever I am catching some to move on to other homes I usually either add a fish trap to catch small ones or lower the water level to half to catch larger fish, I pump the water out into a large 100 gallon container then climb up some steps and net out the fish I want to catch, then pump the water back in.... just leaning in and trying to catch a particular fish is not an easy task. if you can do it you are better fisherman than me!!


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## RobertCupido

Hey Joe,

I'll get in touch with matt! I'm also not sure what might be the problem. Now I change the water in a higher frequency, the UVC is stronger, the plant growth too because of some fertilizer. I'll throw in less leaves, I reduced to the 7 1/2 Cupidos and I changed the brine shrimps and I'll wash the artemia more carefully. Oh and I will be also very careful with the watering roots of my emerse plants. They might be poisonous when hurt. Thats all I can do.

Tonight there will be some hatching, tomorrow another spawn I guess. Wish me luck, photos will follow!


----------



## joemc

great, those photos really should be shared with more people they are super.
I hope it was not too stressful catching the cupids you wanted to remove. I am going catching 12 from my main tank this weekend to pass on to two people looking for some, so it will be lowering the water level and netting them out, sexing them and splitting them into 2 groups of 6. so a bit of fun and lots of cursing ahead of me this weekend! :roll:


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## RobertCupido

Took me several days, the catching. I had a bin with heater and oxygen next to the tank to separate the fish. I left the nets in the tank and whenever I was feeding, I tried to slowly corner out the fish. I had to migrate them in two transports. First two were an easy catch, the other took way longer.

I was very smooth but the overall stress made the eggs disappear, no poisoning this time. When I moved some of the big roots, I noticed heavy breathing - might be some foul areas that produced bad water for the young. I also planted some wild orchids and moss above the tank - the oxygen might have been drawn by substrate that fell in the tank.

With the latest wigglers hatched yesterday, the only thing I do is more frequent water change with added trace elements from time to time. I bought new artemia and also have bred Enchytraeus buchholzi. Everything looks good so far and the fish are beautiful. My sole survivor is showing good growth. This time, I'll pay extreme attention to hygiene. Whenever I put my hands into the tank to feed with the pipette I'll make sure there is not the slidest trace of residues. I will wash brine shrimp, let the exchange water stand for a day (to not draw too much CO2 when thrown into the tank and cause rapid change in ph). I also leave on a small light all the night, I forgot that the last time and in the morning the eggs were gone.

The pitty is, I still can't specify the problem and therefore have to consider kind of everything. But with the increased water change the frequence of spawns is also higher. Now its about every 3 weeks I guess. So there will be many more occasions I hope. Again Im confident it'll work this time. Apart from the common stuff light nightlight and water change Im afraid, Im in a very specific situation with a very individual tank. I still need to get to know my setup in its entirity and maybe change the approach. A lot of breeders I talk to are feeding as much as they can, sometimes in a small separate cage within the tank. But somehow I wouldnt consider the tank "done" when I have to take the offspring from the parents to raise because its impossible for them.

By the way: The second female maybe "due" tomorrow and it looks like she switched the partner a second time in the row. I hope, this third male now shows dedication. The first couple sure does and has a very nice spot thats easy to defend.


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## everlast

Hey guys, hope all is well..
I lost a fish this morning due to what I believe is bloat, was actually the smallest male so there may have been a stress issue which knocked him back a little and left him susceptible. I think also I am going to hang back on the feeds a little, particularly the prima. I have noticed them scoffing that stuff down whole and I think that combined with the fact that I havent been offering much by the way of vegetable matter.

Otherwise the fish are doing great, colour, size, health couldn't be better. I also managed to get the four Siamese algae eaters out of the tank as they were so big and greedy that I didnt want them stressing the cupids out (they werent cleaning much algae nowadays anyways  )

So thats it , Im gonna feed them some shelled peas today and fast tomorrow and do some extra water changes just to make sure I dont lose anymore.

What do you guys use as a veggie supplement for your cupids and what do you guys think of rift lake green new era pellets.


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## Iggy Newcastle

Regarding the New Era food, I looked up the ingredients-



> Ingredients
> Fish Meal, Dried Seaweed Meal, Cornstarch, Fish Oil, Krill, Squid, Mussel, Shrimp, Choline Chloride, Vitamin A Acetate, Cholecalciferol, dl-Alpha-Tocopherol, Potassium Chloride, Sodium Chloride, Dicalcium Phosphate, Magnesium Oxide, Calcium L-Ascorbyl-2-Monophosphate, Zinc Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Molybdate, Folic Acid, Copper Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Biotin.


The thing I see right away is the word meal after fish and seaweed, indicating that the whole fish and all of the algae is not used. So the fish used in the food would be the 'leftovers' like the fins, heads, etc.

I just picked up some New Life Spectrum Algae Max. A food geared towards herbivores like Tropheus from Lake Tanganyika, certain Marine fishes and Mbuna from Lake Malawi. Here are the most of the ingredients. The food was just released late in 2013, so finding a complete list to copy and paste is tough. And I'm not typing it all out 



> Ingredients	Algae; Chlorella, Ulva Seaweed, Red Seaweed, Kelp, Spirulina, Wakame Seaweed, Whole Antarctic Krill, Whole Fish, Eucheuma cottonii, Spinosum Seaweed, Chondrus crispus, Whole Wheat Flour, Omega-3 Fish Oil, Alfalfa, Astaxanthin, Capsanthin, Zeaxanthin, Vitamin D Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement
> 
> Crude Analysis	Crude Protein (min) - 32%
> Crude Fat (min) - 5%
> Crude Fiber (max) - 10%
> Moisture (max) - 10%
> Ash (max) - 9% -


9 different types of greens. The word 'whole' mentioned before Krill and fish indicates that the entire animal is used. Not sure what's available in Scotland, though...

I've been following the thread, and don't have much in the way of input, but wishing you guys all the best raising these fish.


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## zimmy

Sorry about the loss of your fish. I've been lurking on this thread since the beginning to learn more about cupids.

I switched from NLS to North Fin Premium Fish Food (a Canadian company) a couple of weeks ago and am really liking how my fish are responding to it.

I notice they make a veggie formula too. Following Iggy's example, here are the ingredients:



> Ingredients: Kelp, Whole Antarctic Krill Meal, High Omega-3 (DHA), Herring Meal, Whole Sardine Meal, Wheat Flour, Spirulina, Garlic, Astaxanthin (Haematococcus Algae), Calcium Montmorillonite Clay, Vitamin A Acetate, L-Ascorby-2-Polyphospate (Source of Vitamin C), D-Activated Animal-Sterol (D3), DL Alphatocopherol (E), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin, Pantothenic Acid, Thiamine, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Biotin, Choline Chloride, Cobalt Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Selenium, Zinc.
> 
> Guaranteed Analysis:
> 
> Crude Protein (Min) : 36%
> Crude Fat (Min): 5%
> Crude Fiber (Max): 5%
> Moisture (Max): 9%
> Ash (Max): 10%


They're supposed to soon release gel versions of a few of their products (including the veggie formula). They will need to be prepared at home by the user. It will be especially helpful when you're treating very early signs of bloat because medication is more effective if you can get the fish to consume it (as opposed to treating the tank). When I kept trophs and petros, I occasionally soaked their food in a concentrated epsom salt solution as a prophylactic measure when I saw early signs of bloat. It seemed to have a positive effect but mixing it in the gel version would have probably been even better.


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## everlast

Thanks for input guys....at least it was just the one from my colony and yeah Im gonna choose one of the pellets you guys mentioned ..the New Life Spectrum Algae Max is available in the uk ...its a bit expensive but it looks to me like the holy grail of pellet food 

Ill let you guys know how the fish get on with it, I think because my fish are wild caught and not captive bred they could be more sensitive to bloat than captive bred fish.

I liked the look of omega one stuff but not easy to find in the uk .

Cheers guys


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## joemc

sorry to hear you lost one of the fish Peter, it's always disheartening, I am by no means an expert on fish ailments, but are you confident it was bloat? did you cut open the fish afterwards by any chance and inspect its stomach? also was the fish bloated for a few days or bloated when dead. sorry for the obvious questions, but just curious as I have not seen it as a problem to date on any cupido. the angle I am coming from is that all these cupido people have are wild caught and are probably carrying a multitude of internal parasites when bought, if the fish are not treated when acquired and the fish becomes stressed or weak it can cause problems.
cupido in my experience are a real opportunistic feeder like most earth eaters, constantly sifting the substrate, sifting the detrus, picking at whatever attracts them, so I think variety and regular small feedings is the key with these fish, (also lots of water changes!) not any one particular food, I feed mine a mix of allsorts including tetra prima and no problems with them so far (fingers crossed!)
the one other thing I would say regarding food selection is size, remember they are a very small mouthed fish in comparison to other earth-eaters, actually maybe the cupido should be called 'earth pickers', their eating is similar to that of small birds picking grains of seed from the ground
on another note, I am delighted to see a couple of the thread lurkers confessing!!!!!! as I have watched the thread views top 10,000 I suspected there was no way only a half dozen posters were interested in these fish
joe


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## everlast

Hey Joe 

Yeah well Im pretty sure it was bloat, I mean I knew my guys were greedy but I maybe underestimated how much my large group of SAE were eating at feeding times and by taking them out the cupidos got a free go at eating as much as they could...... The bulging eyes and swollen abdomen were clear to see and my other fish are fine (or seems so ).....Im pretty confident I have called it right on this occasion, I changed around two thirds of the water over last two days and cut out feeds and the fish seem lively, hungry and colourful.

Im glad it happened in a way, I believe it was a wake up call regarding my feeding habits and I would rather have lost one than all of them..... I have New Life spectrum foods coming (algaemax pellets and Ultrared) and we shall see how it goes...Ill post some pictures in a few weeks once they get started on new diet.

Im not blaming the Prima ........more my approach to feeding and as such I will be way more cautious and it wont hurt to introduce more algae /greens into the diet....by my own admission I was feeding them stuff and it was lying on the sand for an hour or so till it was all gone. From now on Im gonna go with the 1/2 minute rule for feeding 

Learning as I go...hands up **my fault**.........thanks for input as always Joe


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## joemc

good stuff so, nothing like a little wakeup call!
looking forward to the updated pics / video...
cheers
joe


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## everlast

On another note my little apisto caca pair have had some young and the female is taking a little troop around the tank...eating well.....I probably will put a pair of young into the big tank and a couple of teeny caves up the back in the shaded area.....
My angelfish group that are in with the cupido (bred by myself) are growing like you wouldn't believe and once the big male picks a female Ill take the other four out of the tank which will leave me plenty room for the little apistos to mess around in 

Got another load of oak branches soaked and prepared to go into the big tank......really make the rear of the tank a refuge for the cupidos 
And I am gonna add in a couple of anubias plants into the tank once I find a nice example....up till now *** only seen really small plants.


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## RobertCupido

Thought I might share some thoughts on how the couples work:

Partners can change! A couple staying together is not a given thing. The fish are bonding very strongly though, the longer the parents have led fry, the stronger the bond. But if it fails and the community of the tank undergoes some changes, the female might forget her partner really quick. The coloring stays like for 1 day, after that she is leaving the site and minding her own business for like 3-4 weeks. Then she starts to chatter from time to time. This is when the males get alert and start hostilities. There are several types, some avoid the conflict and look for shelter. Others defend a certain area and one or two are trying to constantly accompany the female. They push in between the line of sight, whenever another male shows up.

Now when the time is right, its up to the female. She could choose a place and mate with the male, that managed to stick next to her side or she is provoking further conflict by swimming near the occupied areas of others. She will get to see only the male by her side and he keepsoff all others, proving his dedication and strenght by that. Than its only a matter of time for natures call. The day, they gonna spawn, the belly is rounded by the eggs and the ovipositor is already clearly showing. Maybe the day before that the couple already dug some pits and cleaned excavated roots or stones as substrate. *** seen both variants and the stones seemed to work better. The male should defend the perimeter, usually 30cm. The main pit is right beneath the spawning site, the female fans off the eggs into the pit when hatching. The hulls sometimes still stick to the substrate and the wigglers wiggle their way out of it - 40 to 48 hours after spawning. Now there is 3 days of shivering in the pit. There should only be a breeze of current and the ground of the tank should be fine in granularity. If the spacing in between the gravel is to big, the vulnerable young get trapped and out of reach of the mother. Fine sand forms a plain surface for the wigglers. Now I have the third day of shivering in the pit, the yolk bag is still visible but close to the complete metamorphose into the belly. I guess tomorrow, the fry is going to start swimming short distances above the pit.


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## everlast

Fantastic Robert......when you have a young group like mine and your looking for signs of spawning behaviour it is valuable to get an insight like this into behaviours of the fish and what to expect..much appreciated 

One of these days Im gonna come on here with my own stories of spawning ^^

Cheers


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## everlast

Hey guys....hope everyones well.......have a few shots of my fish ..really coming on..colouring up well and definite fin extensions all evident  First shot is an obvious male and second a female .....ill try and get some better shots soon as I get a chance 
Oh and hey Joe......managed to get a nice array of anubias going on, perfectly compliments the low light setup...thanks again 



















Oh and hey Joe......managed to get a nice array of anubias going on, perfectly compliments the low light setup...thanks again


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## joemc

sweet, I always wish I could take good photos.. but I have more hope of learning to fly I would say
your fish are looking great, go on stick up a new video if you get a chance
the news on my own fish is I have passed on most of mine to new homes, I still have a few here not collected yet, as I fished them out group by group I realised thee were more offspring in the tank than I though! so I had more to give away than I realised
tks for the update
joe


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## andywoolloo

beautiful fish and tanks , loved reading this thread thats one awesome fish that i have never heard of :fish: :thumb:


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## RobertCupido

I envy you Joe, havent had significant numbers of youngsters yet. One pairs spawn doesnt hatch and because of changing the tech stuff in the tank, the second pair felt too stressed I guess. In the meantime I did not actively "try" because the lightning of the tank was a bit adapted and that took a lot of effort (liquid cooled LED, new controller, PC watercooling adapted...)

I also designed a website for my local aquarists club with my tank as backkground:
http://aquaria-zehlendorf.de/

Now Im up for another try.

Oh and I might have found the cause of fry suddenly disappearing:
FROZEN FOOD

It contains bacteria that might explode after unfreezing and I guess it was too stressful for the sensible fry. Or maybe it somehow sickened their stomachs. Ill be careful with that.


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## joemc

hi Robert, tks for the update on your fish, cool website too.
what frozen foods were you feeding to the fry? the frozen foods available here are not something I buy very often, they are expensive and are mostly water, though they do have their uses, the one I would occasionally buy is lobster eggs.
the fish that are left here in my tank (not collected yet for various reasons) are spawning are at the moment, there was a lull in spawning for the last month or so as fish were netted out to pass on, it seemed to disrupt the whole pecking order in the tank and has taken a while for each to re-establish it's place in the tank, over the last week I have had two batches of eggs, one laid by an F1 female that is 13 months old and fertilized by a male of around the same age, but he lost interest in caring for the eggs after a day or two, probably still got a bit of learning to do, the other spawning has hatched and the fry are now free swimming for the last two days, I decided to offer them nematodes, just to see if they would feed on them, they are taking banana worms and walter worms without any problems, maybe try having a go at feeding these to your next fry, I will load a video of them later, it is a pretty large spawn, maybe 400 fry


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## joemc

here they are , the video is poor but I will try take a better one later this evening
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii4K8be ... e=youtu.be


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## RobertCupido

Ver nice Joe! I think we might have the same breed/type according to the spot. Better Quality Video would help to prove on that. Today a pair is going to spawn again, next try for me.

The second pair has either an infertile male or he does not go over the eggs. Im not sure but they never hatch.

I am still working on my water, it takes a lot of time and effort to change parameters. The PH is 6.6 now, there wont be any poisening by NH3.
There is a lack of No3 which causes a stagnation of the plants, I am mixing a fertilizer (since I have good experience with the ones I tried so far).

Oh I dont know if I mentioned it:

I think the females prefer males with stronger blue markings above and behind their eyes. That is what makes them "alpha" because of its visibility even in certain depth and the strength it promises. Usually, the male has to "back up" its visibility and weaker ones stay undercover in terms of not showing that much markings to avoid stress/rivalty/predators.


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## joemc

sorry, I totally forgot to take another video and after relooking at the one I posted it is just a blur  
anyway update on my cupido tank
most of the cupido are now gone to new homes, there were some to be collected this week but I put the guy off for a few weeks as I have had a few spawns in the tank at the moment and decided to raise one last batch, I will post a video in a short while from this evening once it loads onto utube I have two spawns, one just free swimming this evening and one free swimming for 8 days now, plus another pair looking for a spot to spawn, but at the moment the tank is a bit overrun again with Nanochromis transvsstitius and apisto macmasteri pairs with fry, I need to trap a load of them again and remove them as they are worse than snails in a tank once the start to breed. thses cupido will be the last that I raise and I am going to raise them to about 1and a half cm before I give them away

the few fish I kept back from previous spawns and grew on have all spawned now, both males and females, so I can say that captive bred cupido reach sexual maturity by the age of 12-14 months unlike the original fish that were wild caught and took 2 years to reach maturity


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## joemc

here goes, probably not much better quality than the last one, but I will have another go at a video tomorrow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-Gamq6 ... e=youtu.be


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## RobertCupido

Love the rocky setup! The female in the corner looks eager to spawn, doesn't she have company by one or more males?

When there is spawning going on, the others can somehow smell and go crazy if nearby. The males try to jump in between the couple and fertilize too or at least fan off some eggs. Even females seem attracted ans get very aggressive. I suspect there are hormones triggered. Its clearly also a matter of the current, the male right from the spawning site wasn't as eager as the male left of it, right in the feromone fallout I guess. It was the infertile one, he might have been treated with drugs or something else. Or maybe he is just taking his time.

The one survivor is a very slow grower, maybe 4cm in 6 month. Its offspring from wildcaught. Also the captive bred cupidos from a friend took 3 years to fully show blue markings in the tail and get everything colored. If they are under pressure by social structure in the tank, they hesitate. Won't show and consequently feed as much as the dominant fish.

Congrats on mastering the breeding so well, I hope I can join the club soon. This time I have a good feeling. No frozen food... Might cause a bacteria explosion or bring in parasites or might be just too much for the small sensitive bellies. I keep you up to date.


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## joemc

hi Robert, that female in the corner had just settled her fry down for the night, they were only free-swimming that evening, here is a video from yesterday evening showing them out with both parents, both the adults are F1 from previous spawns I had last year. first bit of the video is another pair in the background ( wild caught) with fry 9-10 days free swimming
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRVE6lW ... e=youtu.be


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## RobertCupido

Hi Joe,

I seperated like 20 after the first day of free swimming in a small extra tank. They're doing great! I really think the problem with raising in the commmunity tank was the frozen food I gave for the adult ones. With that there might have come a sudden rise in bacteria count. So for the next spawns in the tank, I will cut low on frozen food.










Have you managed to breed dicrossus by the way?


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## wildcaught dutchman

Lovely photos of beautiful fish.Well done!! :thumb:


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## Iggy Newcastle

Sweet pic Robert


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## joemc

hi Robert, great to see you posting pictures of fry! keep the updates coming, what are you feeding the fry?
you should see the blue/green florescent spot on them by day 10, then by day 15 see the black stripe through the eye, it would be great if you can take a photo of it, I just cannot manage to with the camera I use.
yeah I have had Dicrossus spawn in my tanks before, its a good few years since I have kept them now, I will have a look for some videos or pictures of them later.


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## joemc

here is a short video of the fry in the previous posts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka59WxJ ... e=youtu.be


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## Iggy Newcastle

Coming along nicely :thumb:


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## joemc

tks Iggy Newcastle, I just had a look through the photos in the flicker account in your signature. very impressive, some lovely fish and some great shots


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## Iggy Newcastle

Thanks Joe! Once in awhile I get a lucky shot...


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## joemc

here's a short video of the fry taken to show their development


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## everlast

wow guys.....awesome shots of the little fry ....gj Robert!!.... and Joe.....the footage of all those little uns...so cool man 

Ill post some updates soon, quite happy to check out your updates for now


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## joemc

cheers, you will have to excuse the music, not really my choice, just what was handy, I just looked at the video myself now and I see at the 40 second mark you can see another pair with a batch of eggs on a rock. these fry will end up as food for the larger offspring, not really a lot I could do about it other than remove all the existing youngsters which would be hard work :roll:


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## RobertCupido

just to give you guys an update:

I gave up on trying to let the parents raise their fry. The Dicrossus filamentosus are picking the young one by one and they do not grow fast enough to escape the dangerzone.

I separated some 100 in a box in the same tank and within the first day, I could see the difference in growth and of course they're all well , safe from predators. I guess my tank has too much structure because for the parents it is easier to defend in open plaines rather than surrounded by structure. They cant realise approaching predators soon enough if its on the radar that late.

I left some of the young with the parents and no mather how much they tried, after one week they disappeared.

Fotos of the box (which has an own air driven Filter) will follow soon.

How are you guys doing?


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## joemc

good to hear Robert, looking forward to the pictures, I took another video of my last batch of young on the 20th of august to compare their growth rate with the previous video, I will try uploading it tonight


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## joemc

done
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyj23dNl ... e=youtu.be


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## RobertCupido

Incredible Joe! Thats 3cm in 1month. Did you start when they were swimming free, when hatched or spawned? it took mine like 10 days to swim free.

And I noticed the grow very slow. Are the parents wild caught? It might be, that the growth rate gains in tank bred the further away from the Wild Caught.

I think spawning was like 3 weeks ago, now they barely have 7 to 8mm length:


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## joemc

hi Robert, great photos , I hope you succeed with the fry this time
the fish in the video are the two batches of fry that became free swimming on the 1st or 2nd of june and the 11th of june, I have just been doing a monthly update on them to show their growth rate, yes they do grow fast, some are now 4 cm, in the video you can see two distinct sizes in the group from the two different spawns along with some outliers both bigger and smaller, 
in both these spawns I have only noticed 2 fish with problems, one a damaged right eye, maybe from an injury and one with a dent along the run of its back probably a birth defect, I will cull both as they are caught to move on as catching one individual fish out of 150-200 is not possible.
the larger fish from the first spawn are from wild parents so are F1
the smaller fish, 10 days younger are from two of the captive bred fish I held back so are F2


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## RobertCupido

Could you estimate a difference in growth then?

So its 4cm in 4month... I was just really worried and thought your fish hatched something like end of july and became this big in 6 to 8 weeks. That would implicate a serious growth problem with mine... But I guess they are doing fine in their small extra tank. I also change a lot more Water, around 5 to 10% daily.

You are keeping them with the parents in the main tank? With my structure and community... they dont stand a chance unfortunately. I would have to reduce the structure but I really like the tank setup so I have to live with the "imperfect" setup.

Now I cant tell if some of the fish got injured during the transfer or have some other disabilities.


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## joemc

hi Robert the fish in the last video are ten to twelve weeks old


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## everlast

Still here guys.........still keep an eye on how things are coming along........well done Robert  I have changed my setup and introduced more plants.......fish are doing great but no spawning activity of note as yet ....I will post some photos of setup and fish soon


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## everlast

Just as an observation and a personal note to myself when I check on the forum I would like to add that at present my cupidos are approximately 1 year 2 months .... (an approximation as we assessed that my young fish were around 3 months when I got them late last year ). I know you guys have covered this ...particularly you Joe but when have you seen them spawn .....from what age?? 
Also had the opportunity to perhaps add a couple more wild adults into the group but was scared it might be detrimental to the colony as it stands .


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## joemc

hi everlast, good to see you stick a post up, my original group of wild caught fish were 2 years of age when they started breeding, but the offspring I held back have been spawning at approx. 1 year of age. I think if I were you I would stick with the group of fish I had and let them develop rather than risk upsetting the group by adding more.
looking forward to seeing some nice full tank shots and a video!!! hint hint!
on another note this thread you started hits one year of age tomorrow and has been viewed over 18,000 times putting it into the top ten most viewed threads on the south American section! so these are definitely a fish that interests people
cheers
joe


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## joemc

here is a short video i took of the fry a month later,I forgot to upload it at the time and never noticed the quality is not great but you can see how much they have grown in approximately one more month some have been moved on and the rest should be going to new homes shortly


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## everlast

Hey guys......how are your young doing Robert?....below I have a tank shot of my current setup, I am intending of adding more anubias and less stem plants as the cupidos keep pulling them out around the "spawning boulders" I placed at the back.... a bit of rampant vandalism around a potential spawning site is always good  
I have witnessed some unfamiliar colour changes of two of the fish , particularly one that hangs around the stones, turning almost completely black, they are thinking about doing something and dont like me looking in the tank whilst they are thinking about doing the thing that I am not sure what it is they are doing  ....strange little fish!! 

Aye so less stem plants, more anubias (my favourite plant ever ...cheers Joe^^) and come on team cupido!!


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## Iggy Newcastle

Great looking setup!


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## RobertCupido

Yes looks really nice the tank, try to keep the faster growing plants because they keep harmful Batterie at a very low Level.

I raised my first batch up to 4cm now, they're doing good and I gave away most of them. Only a few left, I will take some pictures next week! Next fry is already swimming free and I trink this time I leave them with the parents and try to feed extensively. I added some L75 catfish but they dont seem to interfere.

My group grew to 10 and I think the more insividuals the better the harmony.


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## everlast

Hi all of u cupido keepers 

Just wanna update things from my side and see if we can bring in any new cupido keepers.
I actually lost another cupido over the xmas period due to bullying by the rest and looking back it seems my original group of 5 fish have basically been singling out one of the 3 new fish over the last year or so and picking on them till I am at this point with the original 5 ...wierd huh . The 5 I have are strong, robust types...all able to handle themselves and I am absolutely convinced I have 3 males and 2 females.

The males have split the tank into 3 ...left, middle and right...I am going to post a youtube link to a video I managed to upload onto my sons youtube account as I was having alot of trouble with photobucket which I always used previously.

Please watch the video and make any obervations, comments...it starts with the smallest (but feisty) male in shot, you then get a flash of two females who drift around atm checking out everybody , The biggest cupido is the male in the centre who is built like a brick sh*t house...pardon my crude acronysm  Then the last male is the one on the right who comes into shot at the end with one of the females trying to tag along with him....he is mostly top dog but now and then the smallest male has a go ....ultimately I believe the biggest male in the middle is the one to watch as I have seen him deal with both of them but seems a little reluctant to be boss ....hope that makes sense...it will when you watch the video.

I am so keen to hear what you guys have to say about the dynamic you witness between the fish , I would also like to add that I am adding some peat into the filter and or tank tomorrow just to add a little extra nutrient quality into the water.

Aye so I will post the video here in a few minutes


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## everlast

Here is video..


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## joemc

hi Peter, sorry for taking so long to reply to your post, your fish are looking great, they are showing the signs of fish becoming sexually mature, the female on the right of the tank in particular, along with the wannabe male that is attempting to pair with her, though she does not seem interested in him yet!
i remember this with my first fish a while back, all this frenzied activity for a while, then it just stopped, then months later started again, i did as you intend to do, added peat, leaves ramped up the water changes and water flow, all sort of an attempt to give them a final push. 
I also found shifting around the aquarium decor, rocks wood etc was helpful getting the fish to re-establish their territories and stimulate spawning
p.s. i will root out that info you were looking for and mail it to you once i get a chance
cheers
joe


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## everlast

The fighting has intensified and the two males still have not settled whose boss, the peat has amplified behaviours like you wouldn't believe.

They are trying to claim the middle section of wood and stone while the female watches on and she is also defending the area from the other female and male (she is being really hard on the other little female)....she has intensified her colouring too, I feel I am close to getting these guys to spawn. I plan on adding a little blackwater extract and some leaves and do a little rescape tomorrow once I get my killifish colony out ....I am moving them on before all **** breaks loose 

I will try and post a new video and you guys can see for yourselves just how intense things have became....I would say they are more aggressive than my angel pair ever were.....if it was angels I would know where I stood and I would have moved on all but the pair by now but I will stick it out with the group unless one really starts to go down with the continual harassment.

And the big male who was claiming the middle has lost his place to the other one and is trying to get back but for the whole day he has been on the losing end of things . One more water change/leaves etc and we will be on I would reckon :dancing:


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## everlast

Update 
Both females seem to have chosen boulders which they are both defending as there territory......as for males the smallest one has came closest, he was fully extending fins, bursting with colour.....shimmying for the female ..she was doing the same but one of the other males managed to break it up........since then its more of the same, females defending there areas and the males bickering over who gets to hang out with the females.

Would like to add that I added more peat again and yeah ...its very important obviously 

Cannot really do more at this stage , doing all I can and I am spending alot of time watching them........from what I have reported so far would you guys reckon I am close or is there any other behaviours that seem to be missing or ???......all insight appreciated 

And would like to add that I am enjoying this period of fishkeeping so much and if anyone has cupidos......the message is ...be patient..dont give up


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## everlast

Oh would like to echo a point that Robert raised previous........both my females have little squashed silvery spots rather than the big black vivid dots of the males........coincidence maybe but seems to agree with what Robert found with his females


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## everlast

Sorry I am hogging the topic atm...I do apologise but ....yes.....came home today and female is guarding right behind the wood beside the boulder...I noticed her regurgitating a few days ago....the way my female angel used to do when about to spawn.
Anyway, she isnt letting anything in ,not even the pencilfish, I would say she has laid but I dont know for certain...cant see eggs, but the area I made behind my wood is setup in a way to give privacy so ..aye , also noticed the largest males hovering above her in a position I have never seen before ...I would say he was guarding but he looks a bit beat up and I seen her going for him too......dont know....she isnt letting anything near ...I guess I will have to wait.....tank is totally commited to the cupidos so I dont have to disturb anything.....can just leave them alone and let it play out 
Have a little video which I will post


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## Mol_PMB

Hi All!

I've had 5 Cupids for about a year now. They were wild-caught youngsters at about 2" long but have now grown to 3" plus. I've just moved them into a new 450-litre tank and added 3 more adults 3-4" in size.

This thread looks full of useful info and great pictures so thanks for the inspiration and I hope to be able to share my experiences with these beautiful fish.

Regards,

Paul M-B.

P.S. I'm not sure how to attach an image here, so I'm linking one of my new big tank that's hosted on a different site. I hope that's acceptable. Also a closer-up pic of three in the tank I had them in previously.


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## everlast

Hey Paul 
Nice to have another cupido fan jump into the topic ...nice looking fish, is that a plank of wood in the tank?....whatever it is I like it...did you get your first batch of wild fish from rare aquatics by any chance? ...that is where I got mine, I am in Scotland btw 
I am sure some of the other guys on here will be able to offer you advice and info should you need it, its been invaluable for me ....Joe is based in Ireland and Robert is in Germany I believe. 
Mine are getting really close to or have already spawned, I will post a wee update over the weekend


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## Mol_PMB

Thanks for the welcome 

My first 5 fish came from Rare Aquatics, the most recent 3 were from Pier Aquatics. They're all wild-caught but I don't know where either batch was caught.

The plank you noticed in my tank is actually a big chunk of slate. I spend quite a lot of time in North Wales and was able to collect some sizeable slate block offcuts and a couple of slabs that might have been meant as windowsills or similar. As you can see there are also some big bogwood branches.

The other fish in this tank are:
A shoal of 20 red-eye tetras
A herd of 8 Brochis splendens
And a juvenile (6") Pseudacanthicus L024

My tapwater is very soft (KH 0.6) and slightly acidic. I've set the tank up with a continuous drip feed via HMA filter, and an overflow to a drain. In theory it does approximately an 80% change each week but I may tweak that a little as I monitor the water parameters. Temperature currently at 25-26C.


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## Mol_PMB

So, sexing Cupids. I've had a read of this whole thread and some others, and I'm still unsure. What should I be looking for?

My first 5 fish all look very similar. They all have blue iridescent lines under the eye (not spots), they all have slight points to the caudal fin. I thought they might be all males.

When I bought the new 3, I asked if they could be sexed and the assistant said yes. She identified 3 'females' by a rounded caudal and anal fin. So the new 3 don't have points on the caudal fin. Whether this is really a sexual characteristic or if it's just that they have been nipped, I'm not sure. To me, the anal fins look similar on all 8 fish. They all have iridescent lines not spots. The new fish aren't quite so deep in the body comparable to their size, but that might be indicative of feeding or age?

Can anyone advise?

Thanks, 
Paul

P.S. I'm hoping I've avoided everlast's problem with introducing new fish, because the new 3 are all a bit bigger than the existing 5, and so the new ones have become 'boss'. There's some chasing and lip-locking but I've not seen any real violence and they often shoal together happily. The tank has lots of hiding places.


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## joemc

hi Mol_PMB great to see another cupid keeper post on the thread, in your second pic the fish on the left is a female, slimmer body more rounded fins and the middle of the three in the same picture is a male, much deeper body, fins slightly more elongated, the third fish i think is a male but cannot see it clearly enough
sorry for the short reply, running off to do the school run, will log in later to read all the recent posts
joe


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## Mol_PMB

Thanks Joe - that's really helpful and I can see the differences now.
I think therefore that all the 3 new big fish (not pictured) are females with rounded fins and a shallower body. Of the original 5, I think it's 3M 2F though I'll need to get a picture of them all together to confirm. 
Cheers,
Paul


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## Mol_PMB

I've found a few more photos of the original 5. It wasn't until I looked through these that I realised quite how much they have grown and matured.

When I first got them in June 2014:









In August 2014, still barely longer than a rummy-nose tetra

















4 of the original 5 in their previous tank, October 2014:









Here's a male and female lip-locking, January 2015:









A male of the original 5 in the new tank showing off the size of his mouth, February 2015:









I'll try to get some pics of the newer additions soon.
Cheers,
Paul


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## RobertCupido

Hey Mol_PMB,

your cupidos really look amazingly colored. Yellowish flanks and deep red fins, would be nice to know where they have been caught.

Quick advice for the tank setup: I'd put in at least 5cm of sand on the ground. They really like to dig pits and sometimes chew the substrate.

Greetings from Berlin,
Robert


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## Granamyr

Has anyone ever tried putting Cupids in with Severums? I have 6 cupids and looking to put 3 severum in with them. I don't see why it wouldn't work but just thought I'd see if others had ever tried it before?


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## Mol_PMB

It's been a while since I visited this thread, but I did a bit of a rescape in the big tank yesterday and afterwards the cupids all came out to investigate (and probably reallocate territories). Here's a nice pic of five of them, and a slightly less well composed pic of all seven.

I've still seen no signs of breeding activity from them; they've been in here a year. Maybe they just don't like the conditions or the tankmates? The red-eye tetras spawned though and I had one survivor join the shoal, now nearly as big as the rest.


















Cheers,
Paul


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## Faaandango

Hi there, 
Any Cupido keepers still out there and active around here?

I finally got what was supposed to be 8 Cupidos but turned out to be 6 Cupidos and 2 Acarichthys Heckelii ...I guess the fish guy wasnt lieing when he told me they are wild caught 

/Nanna


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## Granamyr

I have 6 Biotodoma in my tank. I believe they are actually Guyana's instead of Cupido but as far as I can tell the only difference between those are that the lateral line goes into the dot instead of the dot being totally above the lateral line.

I've had mine for a little over 8 months now and are starting to look really nice. I'm hoping they start developing their yellow/orange coloring on their bodies but their fins look great.


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## joemc

hi, i gave away and sold off most of mine, i have just one pair left that still have not been collected by a friend, they are an F2 male and an F3 female and have spawned a couple of times in the last few months


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## Granamyr

Just curious if this is normal behavior for these guys. I have 6 Cupidos in my 90 gallon but one of them is trying to flare their gills at the others quite often. Kinda like a firemouth does but obviously not nearly as impressive. It's kinda funny really I think it's a female as it's smaller than the 2 biggest ones I have but I can't tell the sex of them yet.

It does it the most towards the two biggest ones and sometimes shakes it's body back and forth which I would say is a mating thing if it was a ram. I haven't ever seen these guys breed though. So I'm not sure if this one is just further along mature wise or what?

Just curious if other have seen this gill flaring behavior I've never seen it in a geophagus type before.


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## joemc

yeah, totally normal, sounds like they are just maturing , try stick a video up if you can, would love to see them
regards joe


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## Granamyr

Here is a short video of them. Let me know what you think. Unfortunately the one didn't really flare as much as I was expecting it to.


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## harsmann

Hi,

I have been away from this site for a while, but I got myself some cupidos for my 148 Gallon tank in the meantime, going with a school of Rednose Tetra and Corys. How nice to find this thread : )

I am looking for some extra fish for the tank - does anyone have a good suggestion?

(and now I'm off to read the 205 first posts in this thread)


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## joemc

Hi Granamyr, sorry for not getting back to you sooner, I looked at the video, you have a nice group of fish, with a mix of the sexes, they are a bit off spawning age I would guess and have still a bit of filling out to do,your video shows why it is good to keep them in a decent sized group as it helps prevent one fish being constantly harassed by others, looking forward to seeing this group progress and maybe some fry swimming within the year !
and a welcome to the thread to harsmann, hope you find some usefull information to help you with these fantastic little fish
regards
joe


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## Granamyr

Joe,

Thanks for the response, do you by chance know the differences between Cupido's and Guyana's? I'm wondering if I have Guyana's actually since the lateral line goes into the dot instead of the dot being above the line. Also how do you tell the difference between the males and females? Is it mostly just size? I got 3 of these in June last year and the other 3 in July, obviously they do not grow very quickly. They were about 2" each time when I got the group of 3. I'm looking forward to seeing them in their adult coloration seems like it's taking a long time, however, like with most things good things come to those who wait


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## Faaandango

Ohhh Im happy to see that there are still Cupido fans around.

*** had the 6 Cupidos + 2 Heckelii (which I got by accident) for a month or so now. Love them incl the two Heckeliirian intruderes.

Tried making a video ...dont mind the sound, it became a strange mix of the hyper sound from my daughters tv show and some add on ambient music 






Wild caught so no idea of age, but still young I guess. Any input on gender?


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## Granamyr

Your Heckelii look very nice. I believe your cupido's are actually wavrini though as the dot appears to be below the lateral line instead of above it.

Nice looking tank


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## Faaandango

I see what you mean. *** just looked at the spot being above the middle and not the lateral line.

Oh! but ohhh So it turns out that my 8 Cupidos are 2 Heckelii and 6 Wavrini ...I dont really know what to think about that. I guess the obvious question then is: anyone here with xp with Wavrini?

/Nanna


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## Faaandango

Sorry for spaming - I havent figured out how to edit my posts.

I was told they are caught in Peru... that doesnt really fit with the Wavrini does it?

/Nanna


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## Granamyr

I'm not 100% certain as I just watched it again but it's hard to tell is the lateral line fully above the dot? or is it going into the center of it. I would almost say it looks like you have half wavrini and half cupido. The ones I have the lateral line goes into the lower portion of the dot if you look at my video you'll see the are definitely different than yours.

I would definitely say it would be difficult for those Heckelii to have been caught with the biotodoma from the same location unless they were actually cupido


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## Faaandango

I Got all 8 fish from the same tank at a shop which has a quite good reputation. The guy I talked to did say that he had no experience with the Cupidos so he could not tell me any details on care etc.

Did they get mixed up before or after import or did they actually get caught at the same spot? I dont know. Ill try to get some better fotage and will be very happy to her some more input from you in this forum. And well, maybe ill just have to make an Wavrini thread with the xp I get from my "accidential" batch.

Nanna


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## Granamyr

Hopefully Joemc will come back and check out the video he is way more knowledgeable about cupidos than I am.


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## Faaandango

*** been happy for your input till now so thanks for that and also thanks for your positive comments on tank and Heckelii

I posted a closeup of one of the "Biotodoma X" on face book: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154056626294520&set=p.10154056626294520&type=3&theater . From this is it quite clear that the dot is between the two lateral lines. Maybe the upper boarder of the dot touches the upper line, but the upper line definitely does not pass through the center of the dot.

/Nanna


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## Granamyr

That first picture is without a doubt a Wavrini and not a Cupido. Looks to me like all the biotodoma in your 26 pictures posted are all Wavrini. They are very nice fish to just get a little bigger than Cupidos from what I've read. I've never had any though so I have no personal experience with them.


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## Mol_PMB

A great surprise yesterday evening.










I've had these for at least two years (see my posts earlier in this thread). I did have 8 originally but sadly lost most of them in a big tank disaster about 3 months ago, while I was away from home. Even the 3 survivors were in the 'dead' bucket at one time but showed weak signs of movement and they have gradually recovered.

This is the first sign of breeding I've seen with them. Mum was still guarding the eggs diligently this morning. She's looking a bit stressed out with her new responsibility.


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## Mol_PMB

This morning both Mum and Dad were by the eggs. 
Now, Mum is no longer guarding eggs. She is hovering in a different place nearby, behind a chunk of bogwood so it's impossible to see what's going on. But I can see a spoil heap of substrate so it looks like some digging has occurred. She may have dug a pit to contain her fry? Hopefully.


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## Granamyr

Congrats on the spawn good luck with them hatching I've heard they are tough to raise. I have 6 of them still but I'm getting irritated with how skittish they are


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## Mol_PMB

Thanks 

Mum has dug a pit right in one back corner of the tank, surrounded by bogwood, stone and plant roots. The pit is about 2" deep and she is staying there constantly, fanning her fins. I can only just see the top of her from an awkward angle. I assume there are some fry in there with her but I have yet to see any with my own eyes.

They hatched on Friday and this evening I have started trying to send some food in their general direction (assuming they are there).

When I had a big group of cupids, there were quite bold and interested in goings-on outside the tank. They were always first up to the top when I opened the glass at feeding time.


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## Granamyr

when I open the top for feeding they are all about coming out to see what's going on. I have had them for a year now and the longer I have them it seems the more skittish they get. I don't really understand it really. But now if I just try to point at something in the tank you would think I dropped a bomb in their with the chaos that suddenly ensues. They slam into the glass and into things just trying to hide. I don't know what to do to stop it at this point. They have 10 emperor tetras and 7 rio flame tetras as dithers.

Hopefully if a couple pair off things will become more calm. I'm becoming impatient though 

Glad you're having luck with yours let us know how it goes


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## Mol_PMB

Wow!


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## Granamyr

Very nice congrats I'm sure it was fun watching them posture around the tank before hand and now watching them protect


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## Mol_PMB

Thanks  
Yes, it's always great to watch Cichlid parents. Both of them are looking after the fry, and I've tried to feed microworms and BBS so far. There's a lot of hair algae and some leaf litter in the tank, so hopefully there should be some microscopic life in there as well. But that's a lot of little mouths to feed!
I'll try to get some more pics tonight.

When you said yours were skittish, I've never seen that with mine. They're always quite laid back. My tank has quite a lot of decor (huge bogwood branches, slate structures, floating plants etc) so there are plenty of places for them to hide. They do like to rest against hard decor or in niches.


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## Granamyr

Oh my tank has tons of decorations in it as well, there is a short video on the previous page of this thread. I have 4 pieces of driftwood. Several silk plants, some rocks. They dart to the hiding places when I walk up and if I make any motions they go crazy. I've never seen fish do things like this besides silver dollars, certainly not the other geophagus types that I've had.

If I stand there for a bit they will come back out, but I can't try to point at one of them if I'm showing the tank to someone else. When I feed them they are all about being everywhere while I'm behind the tank, but I have to move slowly when I go back to the front. My tank is built into the wall in my basement so I just have to go around a small corner to get back to the front of the tank.


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## Mol_PMB

This may be a daft question, but can anyone tell me which is Mum and which is Dad? I can see no difference in fin shapes or blue stripes. There is a difference in the proportions of the face, I think.


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## Granamyr

Based on what I've read I believe on the top photo the female is on the right with the blue dots on the lower cheek and slightly slimmer body. I'm not certain though I haven't been able to tell.

An update on my fish it seems that two of them have started a mating ritual and one fish is guarding an area and I can't see what's back in there. I guess I might have some fry soon as well


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## Mol_PMB

Thanks 
The fry are eating, pooing and growing, though slowly. There has been some attrition in numbers, partly through predation by the Brochis. But still about 100 left (at a guess). 
Today's surprise was in another tank, where I spotted a half-inch long L397


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## Mol_PMB

Some more pics of they fry. They're not great pics I'm afraid; the lighting is gloomy and the fry are tiny and fast-moving. 
Also the tank is full of hairy algae which looks terrible but provides a great grazing ground for the fry. You can see some of them trailing strings of poo 


































And a stray pic of another new arrival; not sure how many I've got but there are at least five little'uns:


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## Granamyr

Very nice those are very cool plecos. if you're able to sell them they should fetch a nice price


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## Mol_PMB

I've been away for nearly a week, but am pleased to report that my arrangements to provide food to the fry seem to have worked. I still have between 30 and 50 of the little ones, which are approaching 10mm TL. 
I'll try to get some more photos later.


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## Mol_PMB

So, the little cichlid fry are still doing very well but being camera shy. In contrast, here's a little inchling L397 in one of my other tanks. There are at least 10 of them, probably more.


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## Mol_PMB

There are still about 50 of the little ones and I'm finally getting some better photos:


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## joemc

hi, I haven't logged in for ages, great to see more cupido fry, how are they doing now? stick up a video or some pictures of the fry if you get a chance, would love to see how they are doing tks
regards
joe
great pictures by the way


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## Mol_PMB

Thanks Joe!
I've still got about 30 fry, but they're growing slowly. At about half an inch long they're big enough to eat Grindal worms and not be predated by my herd of Brochis. 
They stray further from the parents now too. I'll try and get some more pics later this week.

My life takes me away from home quite a bit, so I haven't always been able to feed as regularly as I'd like. They seem fairly hardy though, and there's a good population of micro-organisms in the tank.

Cheers,
Paul


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## Mol_PMB

Pics aren't great but the little guys are growing:


























Also yesterday I spotted a few Copella meinkeni fry in another tank. That's 4 species of fry I'm raising at the mo (the others are Farlowella vittata and Panaqolus sp.L397). Busy Busy!


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## Mol_PMB

I've been away for two weeks; had a friend come in and feed the fish a couple of times. Happily I still have a good shoal of baby Cupids; I reckon about 25 but they're very hard to count. They're starting to look like miniatures of their parents and have been eating greedily since I got back.

Here are some new photos taken yesterday:


























I mentioned the copellas in my last post; here's the largest of the fry about 3/4" long now:








There's more light in the Copella tank and they swim near the top, so it's easier to get good photos!


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## Mol_PMB

Some updated photos of the baby cupids. I still have about 20 of them, most about 2cm total length.


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## joemc

very nice quality pictures, wish i could take some like that! can you take a few shots of the whole tank, would love to see it, or a video of them along with all the other fish, really like the tetras and plecs


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## Mol_PMB

Thanks Joe!

The tank isn't much to look at to be honest. It's a 450L 4'x2'x2' with rather gloomy lighting and a bad case of algae!
Here are a few photos I've taken this evening showing a bit of a wider view and some of the tankmates:










































I'd just been doing a bit of siphoning and had kicked up a load of gunk - should have taken the pics first! Schoolboy error...

Tankmates are a school of Congo tetra, an SAE, 8 Brochis splendens, a few Otos, and a pair of Farlowella vittata that breed occasionally (I have another tank full of their kids and grandkids)


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## Mol_PMB

Off-topic, a couple of the gorgeous little plecos with Mum:


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## Mol_PMB

Updated pics. New census suggests there are between 25 and 30 of them, about 1" long and now looking like miniature adults 










































I've had quite a lot of interest in these from local shops and members of other fora. Anyone here want some?

Cheers,
Paul


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## FishMaster43

Well done mate, beautiful little fish!!!! :thumb: =D>


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## Mol_PMB

If only I had cleaned the glass!


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## Bd79

I've finally made some space in my biggest tank, and acquired two Biotodoma cupido. I ordered six, but only received two, albeit two pretty big ones. The fellow who placed my order with an importer thinks he'll have four more tomorrow. In the meantime, the two seem pretty happy. I have no idea on gender.


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## Bd79

Bd79 said:


> I've finally made some space in my biggest tank, and acquired two Biotodoma cupido. I ordered six, but only received two, albeit two pretty big ones. The fellow who placed my order with an importer thinks he'll have four more tomorrow. In the meantime, the two seem pretty happy. I have no idea on gender.


Not sure why my photo isn't showing (it showed in the preview), but here's another try:


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## Mol_PMB

I've had no further spawnings from my adults or the juveniles I have retained. However, I'm delighted to announce the arrival of some grandchildren!
Lou, a local fishkeeper who bought a group of seven of my juveniles has just had her first spawn. Initial photos here:
http://www.tropicalfishforums.co.uk/index.php/topic,239474.msg2985066.html#msg2985066

I still have some cupids for sale if anyone else wants to try!


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## Bd79

Congrats on the grandkids!


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