# Twitching, flashing, my tank is fighting something bad.



## EHryan (Dec 10, 2005)

All the fish in my tank are flashing. I can see a fish flash about every 45-60 seconds.

My Acei's are the fish that are twitching bad. ( all 4 of them and only them which is very odd)Their bodies are banged up. They are facing the outlets swimming right up at the top. It's hard to tell if I can see fungus or anything with the scrapes.

I've been doing water changes all day.

75 gallon.

27 fish

PH 7.9

Temp 79

Ammonia 0

Nitrites 0

Nitrates between 0 and 5. PPm

My Acies are in the worst shape. Their fins are clamped too. If one doesn't die tonight I'll be surprised. My 10 gallon has some juvies in it so removing the Acei for tonight is out of the question.

I can't really see anything on the fish, fungus, colors...etc. I can see a few small specs on some fish, can't tell if they are bubbles or itch.

I've been helping my brother move the last few days and haven't had much time to do anything besides feed them and run out the door.


----------



## EHryan (Dec 10, 2005)

Somethings that I've done with the tank lately that could of caused this.

1 Added a yellow lab, had it in the 10 gal for a week, showed no signs of sickness.

2 Added filter pads for polishing. I've been rinsing them instead of replacing with new ones.

3 Removed HOB and added old Fluval. I cleaned it very well and this was 3 weeks ago.

4 Used flake food, about 2 times, that had been sitting for awhile. It clouded up my tank with so many food particles that I stopped using it.

THANKS FOR ANY HELP.

Another thing that's odd about the Acei's, besides only them twitching, they are schooling. They never really schooled before. I heard they were schooling fish but my four never did, maybe one would follow one other, that's it. Now that they are sick all four of them are sticking so close to each other. That just struck me as unusual.


----------



## EHryan (Dec 10, 2005)

This morning update. The Acei's are still the same, swimming in top water, mostly in front of the return. One of them at times is down swimming normally with the other fish.

Haven't seen much flashing from the other fish yet, still no signs of Ich. I will be doing 15 gallon water changes every few hours ( I guess the only benefit of me being unemployed at the moment) and seeing how things go.


----------



## EHryan (Dec 10, 2005)

MONDAY AFTERNOON UPDATE: Everything is the same. I did an almost 50% WC this morning. All 4 Acei's still swimming in the top water return current. They seem to be twitching a little bit less. Flashing is still going on in the tank although a little less frequent. I have the lights off.

I had my mother stop by to look at the fish, I'm colorblind, and she said she didn't see anything that looked like a grey or whitish film on their scales. So I don't know about fungus. She said she thought she saw a tiny bit of brown near one fishes gills.

**EDIT** I looked up the symptoms of Velvet and then asked my mother if she saw any rust or gold colored anywhere and she said that she saw brown around the gills on a couple of them, very faint. (this is for the Aceis only)


----------



## EHryan (Dec 10, 2005)

I had someone look at the Acei again and they said one of them has red, rust colored pec fins, while the other 3 didn't.

Since I can't edit my own posts I wont post again till someone responds that way they wont get a headache reading all of this.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

It sounds like your fish may have velvet. The best way to tell is to darken the room and turn off the tank lights and look at the fish from above or below with a flashlight.

The sheen is usually a greenish gold, and can be seen easily by doing it this way.

There are several products availalble for treating velvet.

Good luck!

Kim


----------



## EHryan (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks for the input!

Velvet was my guess too. We did the flashlight in the dark room(saw you recommend this in another thread), and we think we see the colors associated with velvet. It's a little hard to say for sure.

I will get everyone together and see if we see a greenish gold.

Am I looking for a Velvet only medication? None of the Maracyns are good for velvet?


----------



## EHryan (Dec 10, 2005)

I am treating the tank with Coppersafe from Maradel.

The instructions said that I should also use Maracyn and Maracyn two to prevent secondary infections.

Would anyone recommend that?

And what can I expect from this medication in terms of time it takes to work? If everything goes ok.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I've never dealt with velvet in my tank, so I don't know whether it's necessary to use the extra meds or not.

Keep in mind that Mardel makes all 3 of them, so it could just be a marketing tactic.

I would say it would depend on how long the fish are sick before you instigate proper treatment whether they are at risk for secondary infections or not.

With that being said, I've never had great success treating anything with Coppersafe, and find it to be a very slow if somewhat ineffective treatment. You will need to replace what you remove with water changes.

Kim


----------



## EHryan (Dec 10, 2005)

Interesting.

Would you know of any other brand of velvet medicine that you've heard other people have success with?


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I know that some of the antibiotics are recommended for treating velvet, but I'm still at work and can't remember which ones work well.

Kim


----------



## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... ght=velvet

EHryan, 
the above link has a fair amount of info on Velvet. (Both tak and TheSonOfDarwin are former moderators here). I'll just warn you that SonofDarwin had an unusually resistant strain of Velvet so in reading some of his accounts don't get discouraged! He tried everything and nothing seemed to work but most people do have success in treating Velvet. Check out the picture links he posted as they may help you determine if your fish does indeed have velvet. He had a hard time deciding whether or not it was Velvet and what seemed to help is taking flash pictures. The rust-colored talc-like film showed up in the pictures better than just looking at the fish.

Once you determine if this is Velvet I would make a list of some of the suggested drugs in the above link and then go to the fish store and read package labels to find something that has the recommended ingredients. I'd go heavy on the water changes and gravel siphonings--daily 30-40% if you can work it around your medication schedule.

I think one of the most important things to recognize about Velvet is that you need to treat intermitantly for a long time. The parasite has a tricky life cycle so you've got to catch it when it's not resistant to meds.

Please post back with any additional information and questions.

Robin


----------



## EHryan (Dec 10, 2005)

That's funny I just got done reading that thread after doing a search about twenty minutes ago. I'll go through it again.

I went to a small LFS that specializes in only fish and the guy there recommended SeaCure Copper Treatment by Aquarium systems. However I went through the box and directions and it deals with marine and never mentions if it is or isn't safe for freshwater. I told the guy that I had cichlids so it must be. And they have always been very knowledgeable and helpful.

I'm still about 90% sure it's velvet. I can see that gold (I'm colorblind but to me it looks gold) sparkle coating on two of the Acei's and one Pearlmut.

Whatever it is it originally only hit my Acei's hard. They have been the only fish to swim right in front of the filter return. One of the Acei's, the one in worst shape, had about 40% of its pec fins missing.

But there is still some flashing going on with about half of the other fish, and it's a semi violent flash too. Thanks for the input.

For meds I have Maracyn 1 an 2. Should I use both?


----------



## mojeb21 (Dec 29, 2006)

wow.. i must have the same thing..

my acei's are swimming at the top and look bad. i think i might lose them

i have yellow labs in the tank and they all look good and well.. just my two aceis


----------



## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

> For meds I have Maracyn 1 an 2. Should I use both?


I'm in no position to advise against anything Mardel suggests however IMO I don't think you should or need to treat with an antibiotic. Secondary infections are a concern and some of them can kill your fish alot faster then the Velvet, but for now I'd just go after the parasites and watch for signs of infection. Fuzzy, white or gray growth anywhere on the fish or red open sores can indicate infection.

That's good to have the Maracyns on hand though. I just hate to bombard fish with too many meds at once. The meds are helpful but they also add to the fish's overall stress. It's kind of a fine line sometimes between helping and hindering, IMO. 
I'd check with Mardel about using any of their products along with some other manufacturer's products. They may not be compatible.

Robin


----------



## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

I just did a quick search on Aquarium Systems SeaCure Copper and I couldn't find anything that said it was for use in fresh water tanks. 
I think I'd hold off on using it until you know for sure. The ingredients may be what you need but often the dosing between salt and fresh is different.

Perhaps someone who has used this particular product can comment? Or can anyone find Aquarium System's web site? I looked but failed to find it.

Robin


----------



## EHryan (Dec 10, 2005)

Robin said:


> > For meds I have Maracyn 1 an 2. Should I use both?
> 
> 
> I'm in no position to advise against anything Mardel suggests however IMO I don't think you should or need to treat with an antibiotic. Secondary infections are a concern and some of them can kill your fish alot faster then the Velvet, but for now I'd just go after the parasites and watch for signs of infection. Fuzzy, white or gray growth anywhere on the fish or red open sores can indicate infection.
> ...


Ok here's what I think I will do.

I do have the Mardel CopperSafe in the tank(2 days now). But since I've been hearing that it's not that strong tomorrow I will find out if that SeaCure I was recommended today is safe for fresh water( I have their number). If it is I will do two big water changes tomorrow and use the SeaCure Copper Treatment instead.

And one question. What is the twitching that I am seeing? I can understand the flashing but not the twitching. When I say twitching I mean quick shakes without rubbing against the sand or rocks. Like my Acei's. I hear a lot of "plops" as they are breaking the water surface with their twitching.

I just noticed that my dominant Hongi did some twitching too. Sheesh this is starting to stress me out. Thanks for your help today. Much appreciated!


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

It may be that whatever is going on with them is both internal and external. IMO, the twitching is due to an itch they can't scratch by flashing. At times it almost seems neurological, and I'm really starting to wonder if you might be dealing with Columnaris instead of velvet...

I think I would lower the tank temp to 76, and begin treating with the Maracyn and Maracyn II together, just to be on the safe side.

As I said, I've never dealt with velvet, but this sounds pretty severe, and I think time is going to be of the essense in getting the proper treatment started. This way, you can cover all your bases and maintain the Coppersafe in the tank along with these two meds.

Kim


----------



## EHryan (Dec 10, 2005)

Wednesday update.

I actually added the Maracyn 1 and 2 last night. I tried to spend some time away from the tank but I couldn't and just figured since I had it I'd use it. (Columnaris I hope not. Still don't see any fungus on their bodies)

The $$ for the med dosage in a 75 gal is expensive and I'm thinking if maybe I should buy a 10 gallon hospital tank and remove the Acei's.

But I don't know because the other fish, while flashing (which is getting less frequent with them) and a even less frequent twitch or two they are all nowhere near as bad of shape of my Acei's, who are still hanging out in the return current and top water and are covered in scrapes from their violent twitching and flashing.

I'm also waiting for a call back from SeaCure about if their product is safe for freshwater. Il eft them a message and no answer on two calls.

I'm confused as what to do.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I don't doubt that you're confused, EHryan. It's very hard to know what is going on with these fish without a qualified veterinarians input.

I don't know if it is velvet or Columnaris, I could tell if I could see them in person, but I can't. Using the meds we've advised together will cover all your bases.

But, the main tank is going to need treating, either way.

Kim


----------



## EHryan (Dec 10, 2005)

My dominant male Pearlmut has Ich. I just noticed it about 20 min ago. Salt like grains all over his body. I don't see any other fish with it.

So I have...

*3 fish that I think have velvet. 2 Acei and 1 small Pearlmut. (although Pearlmut shows no signs of distress unlike the Acei)

*1 fish with Ich.

*The fish in the worst shape are all 4 Acei. Clamped fins, flashing, twitching, scraped bodies, swimming in the return. They are eating but I think it's starting to drain them.

*There is very little flashing/twitching with all other fish.

The fun just keeps coming. I can't really complain though in 4 years, before all this, all I ever had was one case of bloat and one injured fish.

-----------

**Edit** I see Ich now on a female Hongi. Only a few specs on its face.


----------



## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

> The $$ for the med dosage in a 75 gal is expensive and I'm thinking if maybe I should buy a 10 gallon hospital tank and remove the Acei's.


Yes it is expensive. That wouldn't be a bad idea to remove the fish with the worst of it to a hospital tank and treat them with the heavier med combo: the Maracyns and the Coppersafe med. Where they are the most heavily infested they are also helping to increase the infestation in the main tank.

Still need to treat the main tank though.

So far you're the most certain that the fish have Velvet and now ick. Columnaris--not so sure but a possibility. 
*I think you should treat the main tank with the Coppersafe.* It's recommended for both Velvet and Ick. In addition to the Coppersafe you should add salt at the rate of 2 tablespoons per five gallons of water. Salt is an effective treatment for ick, also works against Velvet, and salt is also used to prevent the spread of Columnaris by preventing the bacteria from adherring to the fish's skin. 
In addition to the above do as many partial water changes as you can fit in. By removing water you'll be removing some of the parasites. Siphon the gravel. 
*Increasing water movement* may also help by preventing bacteria and parasites from attaching to the fish. So if you've got a water jet you can stick in either of the tanks I'm sure the fish will appreciate it.

Normally with Ick and Velvet you want to raise the temp but since there's some question about Columnaris you'd better leave it between 76-78. And as you've no doubt already read when treating for Velvet its best to keep your tank lights off and basically keep the tank as dark as you can.

Really sorry you're having so much trouble with your tank.

Robin

(Salt to add: sodium chloride--regular table salt without additives. Dissolve it first and add it gradually over the course of 24 hours. Kosher or pickling salt at the grocery store is MUCH cheaper than Aquarium salt and disolves quicker)


----------



## EHryan (Dec 10, 2005)

Well let me tell you without you and cichlidaholic giving me advice I'd feel really lost! Thanks to both of you for taking the time to respond.

We do have Kosher Salt so I will be using that tonight.

I should be feeding them right? Despite the Acei's being sick they are still hungry. All fish have an appetite.

I will keep up the small water changes and replace the salt and CopperSafe.

Tomorrow morning I will pick up a powerhead for more circulation. I used to have one and meant to get a new one anyway.

Maybe i'll keep up the Maracyn 1 and 2 till they run out.


----------



## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

You can continue to feed them, sure. I'd feed on the light side while you're treating but there's no reason to withold food.

Acei are truly dedicated eaters, arn't they? I use to have one and it was a wonderful fish.

Robin

BTW, I sent you a PM


----------



## Oneeyedgeckz (Nov 30, 2005)

For starters.. I am absolutely amazed that no one thought of gill flukes. From reading the first post, that was and still is my instinct as to what the main problem is. Even after reading the whole thread i still think you have gill flukes and not velvet. the red on the fins is usually a sign of stress caused by blood pooling to the surface, the fish swimming into the current is a sign that fish are having a hard time breathing and are trying to force more water over their gills. The start of all of this all came with addition of your new fish, which is common. Always quarantine new fish before adding them to you system. 30 days, not 10.... you probably know that now though.



Robin said:


> > In addition to the Coppersafe you should add salt at the rate of 2 tablespoons per five gallons of water.


In my opinion that is way too much salt. I would suggest 1/2 tablespoon of IODIZED table salt per 10 gallons. The iodine attacks all types of parasites. The water changes are ok, but keep in mind that water changes can be stressful to fish, and should be limited to 1 a day at most.

Also, I have had no luck whatsoever with any Mardel products on multiple occasions. That means every fish I have ever treated with Mardel has died. I have on the otherhand had great luck with Methylene Blue (kordon brand 1 drop per gallon) in combination with the salt to cure most types of fungus's and parasites. It s excellent for killing off ick and other secondary infections. And the salt helps with the electrolyte absorbtion, allowing the fish to breath easier. For persistent cases with parasites I've used Kordons Malachite green. It says to used 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons but I would cut that in half.

Whatever treatment you decide to do/stick to, you should add some API's stress coat. It will sooth the fish's skin making them less itchy and helps bolster their beneficial slime coat. I usually use about half the recommended amount of stress coat, but it works great.

Really believe Mardel and Maricyn should be taken off the market, I say their a fraud.

Definitely look up Gill flukes and see what you find.

One last thing, aeration. LOTS of BUBBLES, Oxygen is extremely important to tissue regeneration and fish recovery. Sorry to go on for so long but OMG!! I was bitting my nails reading this...
Good Luck!


----------



## EHryan (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks for your input Oneeyedgeckz. You are the second person in this thread who doesn't like Mardel products. And the reviews on this site weren't all that great either.

Tomorrow I will look for Methylene Blue.

I just hooked up my old but still working air pump. I should of thought of that. The stress coat is a good idea too.

As for gill flukes I will have to have someone come and look at them again, like I said before I am colorblind and wouldn't be able to tell myself. The only things that I can see are the ich specks on a few fish and that gold dust looking coating that is associated with velvet. (on a few fish as well)

As of tonight the dominant Acei is actually looking better but he still has some nasty twitching going on. His color looks better and he's flaring(and he showed some aggression towards the other Ace's which concerns me). As for the other 3, one looks bad, the other two not as bad. Those 3 are still dark and hanging out at the surface, in the corner or in front of the return. And I think one of them has cloudy eyes too.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

EHryan, your best bet is to stick with what you've started rather than throw more meds in the tank. Jumping around from one treatment to another won't solve anything, and while gill flukes aren't easy to rule out, the symptoms you've described and the discolouration of the fish doesn't really point to that.

Robin's salt advice is right on the money, too.

Kim


----------



## EHryan (Dec 10, 2005)

I agree about the stress with switching up methods cichlidaholic.

I have salt in there now and the coppersafe from Mardel. I did add some Stress Coat with Aloe.(about 75% dosage)

The plan for today is to just let everything be and maybe do a small to medium wc tonight, no where near as much as I have been doing in the past few days.

I have a powerhead for more movement combined with the airpump

SeaCure called me back finally and said that their copper treatment is safe for freshwater. I wish they had called sooner before I put the Mardel in. SeaCure is the one that a very reputable LFS told me they use for velvet treatment.

Maybe in 3-4 days I will change over from Mardel to SeaCure for the copper..not sure yet.

As of today the Acei's are still at top water, not flashing as much or in the return current as much. Not much flashing going on with the other fish.


----------



## EHryan (Dec 10, 2005)

Friday

The Acei's are still the ones the most sick. They aren't swimming in the return current as much, mostly just hanging out in the upper corners head up near the surface.

The dominant Acei still has his twitching seizures but his color looks good.

One of the Acei's has moved down into the rock caves. It's body barely resting in the bottom.

The other two look the same, not much twitching or flashing from them but still dark looking.

All 4 of them are still eating. I'm not sure what to do, part of me wants to put them in a hospital tank. Most of the other fish are fine. Every now and then ill see one of them flash.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

You can move them to a hospital tank, but if it is bacterial, the other fish are going to need more treatment, as well. I would just continue things as they are now.

Kim


----------



## EHryan (Dec 10, 2005)

Yeah, I started thinking about buying another 10 gallon for them but with the price of the meds it wouldn't be any cheaper and like you said they all need it.

I had my mother stop by again so I can take advantage of someone who can see color and she said again that only one of the Acei's has red, blood red she said, right were its pec fin attaches to its body.

And this is the same one that has been resting in the rocks while the other 3 are in top water. She didn't really see, and neither do I, as much goldish specs on their bodies.

And I think the salt bath is working for my Pearlmut, I still see ome ich but not as much.


----------

