# New Batch of Kilesa Fry



## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Need some help from you guys... I stripped one of my wild Enantiopus kilesa females today at Day 14 and got 33 F1 kilesa fry - which is really cool! However, I ended up losing 3 of them which is directly attributable to my stripping procedure. My procedure is to net the female just after turning the lights on as she is still sleepy. I let her set in the net about 5 minutes and then, with a stylus (with a plastic tip) I open her mouth and dump fry into the net. This is the step where I lose fry because the female will clamp down and crush anything in the way once I remove the stylus to give her a break in between fry removal attempts. I saw each of the three fish get crushed Ã¢â‚¬â€œ so, I know where the losses are occurring.

That's three lost fry from this group and two lost from a previous group. From a financial perspective: at approximately $25 each for F1 kilesa fry x 5 equals a potential $125 loss. Of course, from the compassionate side of things, I just hate losing any fish whether I caused it or not because it is a living creature.

Does anyone have any "Best Practices" you would be willing to share? Also, does anyone let the female release into a safe environment (say, a nursery tank)?

Thanks in advance,
Russ

*F1 Enantiopus kilesa fry (Day 14 from spawning)*


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

I don't think there is stripping method that has a 100% survivable rate for the fry.I have used a plastic toothpick with good success in a shallow plastic container but if the female gets frisky I still lose a few fry.Luckily my Xenotilapia spit out all of their fry all at once and sometimes on their own in the container.Paracyprichromis are a real pain to strip,big fry in a relatively small mouth.

The other option is letting the female spit naturally but with that I believe you will lose more fry b/c it will take the female longer to get back into breeding condition.Also sometimes the female will hold too long and the fry are weaker than if they were stripped with a tiny bit of yolk left.

The main thing is to keep it as stress free as possible on the female breeder.It is much easier saying it than doing but don't focus on how many fry died but on how many survived and the potential for more in the future.

Congrats on breeding the wild E. kilesa =D>


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

I use one of those gum massaging tools you get from the dentist to pry open the females mouth. I'm not sure about letting her spit in a holding tank, as I think she may eat the fry. P.S, I have lost 11 out of the 27 Kilesa fry over the last couple of weeks.


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## Mr Mbuna (Nov 16, 2007)

Well as I've said before, I use a small plastic syringe and just gently insert the tip into her mouth then flush them out with a few slow plunges. I used to just hold the lower jaw open and dip the head repeatedly and that worked ok as well. I am going to strip my female Kilesa today.
Update - I wasn't sure how long she had held for as I've been away and the first three out still had big orange egg sacs so I've abandoned the strip for another week. Not sure if these three will make it but I'll try and raise them and use them as a guide as to when to complete the job..


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## dielikemoviestars (Oct 23, 2007)

*Mr Mbuna*, can you elaborate on the syringe method? Are you actually pushing water into the mouth? How does that flush them?


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## Mr Mbuna (Nov 16, 2007)

Just like this


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Mr Mbuna said:


> Just like this


Love it! Thanks for sharing!


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Update:

Group B is doing very well with no more losses.

Group A is in the 2.5 gallon photography tank and I need to get them into a 10 gallon tank. I don't have a good lid on this tank and I have lost a few jumpers. These little kilesa can jump farther out of a tank than any other fish I have seen.

It looks like I am going to have a Group C  I have kept big daddy and the mother from Group B in the 20 long (with the 30 fry in a floating nursery). Just trying to give little dude a chance to spawn and he has already taken advantage of the situation. She's been holding for a few days now and she is almost past the crittical point. It is looking favorable. Little dude is two for two on spawns while Big Daddy is lucky to be batting 250.

So, Little Dude is the father of Groups A & C while Big Daddy is the father of Group B. It is likely that the females are different from Goups A & B but I can't be 100% dogmatic about that. I can be 100% sure that Group C is completly genetically diverse from Group B because both parents from Group B are still in the 20 gallon while both parents from Group C are still in the 72 gallon tank. Confusing? :lol:

This is imporatnt to me because I want to grow out a group of F1s for myself. In this yet future growout group, I plan to keep some males from, lets say,... Group B and some females from Group C. So, one day, when my wild caughts have all passed, this F1 group will be a genetically diverse F1 breeding group. All this will become unecessary if they start importing wild kilesa again some day. Oh well. I am rambling on - time to turn in for the night.

Good night.
Russ


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Little Dude (emerald blue/green forehead)


















Big Daddy (Purple-ish blue forehead)


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## Mr Mbuna (Nov 16, 2007)

Apparently they have a short life and even shorter breeding life so a very good idea to keep back genetically different fry for the future. WC fish are few and far between over here. I have just 4 so I will also be hanging onto my fry.
Here's a pic of my Alpha with a female.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Mr Mbuna said:


> Apparently they have a short life and even shorter breeding life so a very good idea to keep back genetically different fry for the future. WC fish are few and far between over here. I have just 4 so I will also be hanging onto my fry.
> Here's a pic of my Alpha with a female.


Beautiful male! Great pattern on the dorsal fin!


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Update....

*Group A* (Little Dude): moved Group A from the 2.5 gallon photography tank to their own 10 gallon tank. I didn't have a very good lid on this tank and discovered that Enantiopus kilesa fry have an incredible vertical jump  I ended up losing some of them and I am not sure where they went. I did find one curled up behind the tank. I think my cat may have found the others. I have 13 left from Group A left. The their new home, the 10 gallon tank, is tight; so, I shouldn't have any jumpers. They are doing very well. Don't think that I'll use the 2.5 tank anymore for kilesa fry.

*Group B* (Big Daddy): pictured above, is doing awesome and I have had no loses. They are still in the floating nursery. I started cleaning up one of my 10 gallon tanks for them. Sometime this week, I'll give them their own 10 gallon tank.

*Group C* (Little Dude): Little Dude spawned with one of the females on Friday 8/12/11. She is still holding so it looks like there will be a Group C. If all continues to go well, I will strip her on Thursday 8/26/11.

Most of Group A is spoken for. My plans for B & C are to grow them out until they are large enough to determine gender and take some males from one group and some females from the other group and combine them to make a genetically diverse, F1 grow-out, group for the future of the breeding program.

That's the plans anyways 

Russ


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## Furcifer158 (Feb 16, 2008)

Razzo said:


> Most of Group A is spoken for. My plans for B & C are to grow them out until they are large enough to determine gender and take some males from one group and some females from the other group and combine them to make a genetically diverse, F1 grow-out, group for the future of the breeding program.
> 
> That's the plans anyways
> 
> Russ


Sounds good at least you will be providing some good kilesa

On top of my wild trio I also have a small F-1 group of females, NOT from my wilds, breeding with a wild male to get some nice strains too


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## Mr Mbuna (Nov 16, 2007)

Stripped my second female today (she is the largest) and got over 40 fry!!  Not sure exactly how many ; maybe even 50.
I know what you mean about jumping - they are incredible for their size. Just a little blip on the surface as they leave and one is gone.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Mr Mbuna said:


> Stripped my second female today (she is the largest) and got over 40 fry!!  Not sure exactly how many ; maybe even 50.
> I know what you mean about jumping - they are incredible for their size. Just a little blip on the surface as they leave and one is gone.


Congrats! 40 to 50 is a huge spawn!


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Group C is gone. She was looking just too darn hungry. I was hoping she could resist. I fed the tank and she spit some wigglers which quickly got gobbled up by tankmates.

Next time I see that level of hunger, I'll recognize it, strip and tumble.

Oh well - still learning.

Russ


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

> Apparently they have a short life and even shorter breeding life


how long do they live and how long do they breed exactly?


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## Furcifer158 (Feb 16, 2008)

mel_cp6 said:


> > Apparently they have a short life and even shorter breeding life
> 
> 
> how long do they live and how long do they breed exactly?


See I have never herd this before, the longest I had kilesa for was only 3 years till I sold the first group I had, the ones I have now I have had for only a year so far, but I do have wild caught that I have had for a year and they breed great, and I'm getting another wild group from a friend that has had his wild group for 5 years and they are still spawning.

So I not sure where he got this info or if it was just personal experience :-?


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## Mr Mbuna (Nov 16, 2007)

I got this info from Ad Konings (not personally, but in an article in Practical Fishkeeping magazine, April 2010 issue, article was called "Living the dream" and was all about E. melanogenys which Ad thinks is the ultimate Tanganyikan cichlid.). 
I quote, "E. melanogenys usually breeds just one year and stops. Thereafter, the females produce hardly any eggs and fertility seems to diminish too.
Replace the breeding stock every year and enjoy these beautiful but delicate species for a long time!"
This is written about E. melanogenys rather than kilesa, but there is very little difference between them and I would think the same applies to both. I can't comment from personal experience as I have only had mine for about 3-4 months. So far they are breeding fine.
As to their life span, well I was speculating there based on their short breeding span. I can't be certain of that.


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## Furcifer158 (Feb 16, 2008)

I wonder if the breed different in captivity?
Thanks for sharing that quote, never herd about this before.


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

*** actually read about their short life span and breeding cycle before and
thats my reason for asking. i wonder if anyone can confirm this based on experience.

*** been thinking of getting a breeding group but cant make up my mind.


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## Furcifer158 (Feb 16, 2008)

mel_cp6 said:


> I've actually read about their short life span and breeding cycle before and
> thats my reason for asking. i wonder if anyone can confirm this based on experience.
> 
> I've been thinking of getting a breeding group but cant make up my mind.


You should get a group there amazing fish.

I have not yet at least had a female not breed for me or slow down with the oldest being the F1's I had for 3 years. I can't say how old my wild ones are however so who knows how old the are.


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

at what size do these fish start to breed anyways.
i may be able to get some that are around 2.5" for $30 each.



> You should get a group there amazing fish.


i was looking last year but had no luck. plus i really didnt want to order online.
now, im really considering it and i have access to them.

Russ, have you had them in black substrate?
i bet they will look awesome.


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