# feeding solely on live food



## kribs (Oct 31, 2011)

Hi all,

I know with all the good quality food around we don't actually even need to supplement with live food most of the time, as most fish thrive and breed readily on pellets and/or flake, but I occasionally get this finicky fish that refuses to eat anything that is not alive.

Usually the subject fish is an Apistogramma or similar dwarf. Sometimes I can train them to get dry food by starving them a couple of days or mixing dry food between live food feedings, but it does not always work.

My question is, even though it may not be advisable, what combination of live food would offer the most complete nutrition? We do not have frozen food here, and in the rare occasion we have it's usually bloodworms which have been defrosted/re-frosted a million times. So I am talking about all-live stuff.

Currently I have cultures of Daphnia pulex and D. magna, they produce a lot but as far as I know they are not extremely nutritious. I also have grindals and whiteworms, which, I guess are similar in composition and nutritional value. I have a tray of tubifex which seem to be reproducing slowly in the last 3 months. I also tried fruitfly maggots but realised that fish are not guaranteed to like them. I also have a gammarus culture which I started for fun, but it is not reproducing much at the moment. I guess a red cherry shrimp culture would produce more. I also had a continuos culture of brine shrimp, but after 4 months I decided it was not really worth the trouble. I feel the same towards hatching brine shrimp everyday for adult fish. Feeder fish are not really an option because the fish in question are quite small. I do not like the idea either.

So any advice or experience about feeding fish solely on live foods would be most welcome. Even though this may not be a useful thread for most, I still think its worth discussing.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

I think it's going to be difficult to emulate the full variety of nutrients of a "wild" diet with only foods that you can cultivate. However, I think if you supplement your live foods with your own homemade mix (like the Euro shrimp mix, or Repashy brand food), you might be able to entice picky eaters.

There's also supplements that you can spike your live foods with... but I suggest doing some careful research before dousing your daphnia in vitamins. Here's a decent link to start you off: 
http://www.allnaturalpetcare.com/Formul ... ition.html

The next idea, and one I've actually done, is to grow your own aufwuchs. Instructions and more recipes are available in the library: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/feeding_list.php


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## dreday (Oct 12, 2007)

i agree with triscut on adding supplements to the live foods. It depends on the type of food and how readily it will absorb the supplement.

There are a couple of live foods that are pretty good. Vinegar eels, i have never done then myself but hear they are very easy to maintain and are small. There is a lady in my club who found an eel culture under her sink about 10 months later and they were still alive. She picked out a few and got another fresh culture going.

Blackworms, they are a great live food for conditioning your fish. maybe not an everyday food if you are looking for a staple diet but I know tons of breeders that swear by them. They can be pricey and as far as i know not able to be done at home.

Earthworms, easy to get going if you have the space. You just need some good compost and you can grow them inside or outside. Dig up what you need, or find a bait shop close by that will always have them in stock. Chop them up with a pizza cutter to make a paste out of the worms to feed to small fish.

Microworms, i think that is close to or the same as the white worms. Bread, milk,yeast bam worms.

During the summer you can get a tub or kiddy pool outside and scoop out all kinds of goodies. mosquito larvae is a fish favorite. Just try to keep birds and snails out, they carry parasites that can affect your fish.


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## kribs (Oct 31, 2011)

Thanks for the replies!

I agree that it's not possible to emulate the full variety of food found in nature, but I am curious about what can get close to it. Like what live food combination would give better essential fat and amino acid compositions? Enriching with vitamins is a good idea, but what about the other stuff? For example I know that BBS is deficient in one essential amino acid, but since almost all freshwater fish are able to synthesize it BBS is a quite complete food for freshwater fish. Not the case with some saltwater fish, though.

I think growing your own aufwuchs is an excellent idea for fish that actually eat it. In fact my older daphnia cultures produce some which I can remove in chunks, and I am currently using to supplement my P. taeniatus fry. Hard to tell if they actually eat it but it definitely doesn't hurt since it's mostly algae and doesn't foul the water.

I have tried feeding home made food or simply shredded shrimp and such, and even though some fish love them, some simply still refuse to eat anything thats dead. So that doesn't always solve my problem.

I have a microworm culture going which I mainly use for very young fry. I think vinegar eels and microworms are not that useful for adult fish even if they actually eat them. We don't have blackworms here but tubifex worms instead, and as I mentioned I kind of culture them. Not very prolific, but since I use little and have few fish, it's doing the job. Earthworms are a great idea, and I already do the leave-out-tub during summer thing.

But you see, what I am interested in knowing is for those fish that definitely refuse anything "not alive", what could be the best selection of live food to offer on long term?


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## dreday (Oct 12, 2007)

I would think any mix would be of sufficient nutrition for the fish. The more variety the better.

I would still try to mix in a small pellet for the fish though. Fish are highly adaptable. I have a lima shovelnose that eat pellets, i never intended to train it to eat pellets. It is just a fat and hungry fish. I still feed it live fish but it always goes after the pellets.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

From my experience, feeding daphnia, which are not considered a great food, the growth rate is phenomenal. I did keep the daphnia in front of the fish 24/7. moasquito larvae are excellent food, and white worms 2 or 3 times a week are also good. blackworms, can be cultivated at home, and i would stay away from tubifex.. live bloodworms are also good, as well as any midge or gnat larvae. Keep in mind that live foods are about 90% water and therefore you need to feed a lot more than you would if using dry food.As well, in nature, the fish eay what they can get, when they can, and that will vary at different times throughout the year. Somehow, they survive with out a regular balanced diet.


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## kribs (Oct 31, 2011)

Thanks for sharing your experience with daphnia, that kind of information is what I was actually looking for. I also feed my fish with copious amounts of daphnia, but it's been only a few weeks so hard to tell the long term effects. But what I noticed is that they show less interest in daphnia the more I feed it. I guess apart from the actual nutrient content of the live food, the gut contents of the live food makes a big difference. In the case of my daphnia, it's a mixture of algae, yeast, fungal spores, bacteria, etc... I guess that makes it a more complete food.


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## dreday (Oct 12, 2007)

Yes that would make a big difference in what you feed daphnia. You can buy higher end products like selco that would help out too.


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## kribs (Oct 31, 2011)

Selco is not available here, I saw some DIY Selco-like recipes on the internet but getting all the ingredients is a bit tricky.


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## dreday (Oct 12, 2007)

Sorry, i did not see you were in Turkey. Anything containing highly unsaturated fatty acids (HUFAS) are always nice. You can even use some liquid vitamins for humans if that is all you can find.


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## kribs (Oct 31, 2011)

I will give the vitamins a try. All this conversation and some searching on the web led me to believe that soaking dry food in omega 3 fats could be a real booster for fish that actually eat dry food. It seems that it's the lacking ingredient in most diets and I guess it should be easy to buy omega 3 capsules for humans and simply drop some on pellets. Will give this a try. From what I read it may even promote appetite.


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## dreday (Oct 12, 2007)

Look for HUFA supplements. It is pretty much the same thing, highly unsaturated fatty acids. They promote conditioning of the fish and promote growth of younger fish. It is definitely the way to go. If you gt fish HUFA you will pay more than human type supplements.


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## kribs (Oct 31, 2011)

I started trying omega3 rich fish oils 3 days ago. I simply let some flakes and pellets absorb a drop of fish oil for a minute and then feed. So far it's working great, fish really like the taste and I can not see any oil leeching from the food, which is something I was worried about. I can not speak for long term effects but it seems to be working.

I am using a good quality human supplement in soft gel capsules. I made a hole with a needle, and if I do not squeeze it does not come out. Very practical and a small supply can last very long. In my next batch of P. taeniatus fry I will try to make a test with a control group to see if omega 3 supplemented in this way makes a difference.


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