# Mystery problem is killing my fish. Please help (Long post)



## anagram (Feb 12, 2008)

First, many thanks in advance for any help you can give in figuring this out.

Fish: 2 rainbow cichlids less than 1 year old.

Symptoms: Gasping for air with mouths open, sitting at the bottom of the tank then darting around the tank until they turn upside down, sideways, or with head higher than tail. Their color darkens until they are almost completely black.

Duration: I noticed this extreme behavior last night when I got home from work. I quickly moved them out of the main tank and into a clean bucket that I only use for clean water during water changes. I added a small airstone and by putting the stone close to their gills, was able to revive them. The larger fish tanked first. I removed it from the tank to the bucket and was administering air when I noticed the second fish was floating upside down. I pulled this one from the main tank, too, and revived using the airstone. After an hour in the bucket, their color had returned to normal. Although they were lethargic and breathing heavily, they were not gasping and didn't have their mouths open.

Tank: 40 gallon SeaClear with an Eclipse 3 lid and filter system.

Water conditioner: Prime

Food: NLS

Parameters: (This morning, I tested both the tank and the bucket to see if there was something drastically different between the two):
Tank:
pH: 7.6
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
KH: 53.7

Bucket:
pH: 7.6
Ammonia: .25
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
KH: 53.7

Background: The current tank has been up for about 6 months. It was the result of combining fish, gravel, and filters from 2 established tanks. One was a 10 gal quarantine tank with the rainbow cichlids and one was 29 gal Eclipse 3 with a female firemouth cichlid who was at least 5 years old. I combined everything with the thought of being able to quickly set up a quarantine tank with gravel and filter. I then took down the quarantine tank and dried it out.

I set up the new tank in a room with little air circulation and it gets hotter than the rest of the house. Additionally I placed the tank in front of a window, thinking it would be nice for them to get real sun. The tank is not planted, has a gravel base, and rocks piled. The tank has the following filters:

Eclipse 3 biowheel
Marineland C220 canister
Fluval 2 Plus (from the quarantine tank)

The quarantine tank had an infestation of planaria which was minor. I kept it under control mostly through water changes. My cleaning habits are inconsistent. I just finished grad school and work f/t, so it was usually feast or famine for the poor fish. For the past 3 years, it might be 3 weeks to a month before I would do a water change and clean the filters. Before that time, I cleaned every week.

About a month ago I noticed that there was a brown-rust algae growing on the rocks and sides of the tank. I cleaned it for the first time 3 weeks ago, scrubbed the rocks and did a big water change (probably 75%). The fish were obviously stressed and sat at the bottom of the tank. This is when I lost my firemouth. She had no obvious signs of disease or injury. I removed the body in the morning, so she had died sometime during the night.

The algae returned, this time with some blue-grey algae on the rocks. At this time I had a massive outbreak of planaria. I decided to use Clout to knock them out and some AlgaeFix to kill the algae. I did a 75% change and added the first full dose of Clout. I removed all carbon filters beforehand and replaced them with floss. I checked the fist for signs of distress. They seemed unhappy and sitting at the bottom of the tank, but no gasping or dark color, although their colors were very brilliant.

The next day I still saw a few planaria floating around, so I decided to treat the tank again with another full dose. When I came home after work the next day, that's when I found them gasping. I did a 75% water change and replaced the carbon filter in the Eclipse filter. I was planning on adding carbon to the Marineland filter the next day.

After work the next day I came home and that's when I found them with mouths open and gasping. I removed them to the bucket and did a 90% water change. I removed all the rocks and scrubbed them and stuck them in boiling water. I cleaned out the Marineland filter and added charcoal. I also added charcoal to the Fluval filter. I added 1 fish back to the tank and he immediately got dark, gasped, darted, and went upside down. I pulled him out of the tank and put him in the bucket. Then, I pulled out the quarantine tank, wiped it out, added clean water, and added the other fish. She didn't change color and seemed ok. I added the fluval filter and she started darting, getting dark, and gasping. I removed her to the bucket and rinsed the filter in conditioned water, tossed the floss filter, and added a new charcoal filter. I reintroduced the filter and added the first fish to the tank. It went berserk and tried to jump out of the tank, turned dark, and gasped. I removed it to the bucket.

And that's where I am this morning. The fish are in the bucket with the airstone. I was surprised that they were even alive when I got up. The fish haven't eaten in going on 3 days now. I'm going to remove some of the water in the bucket and add new to keep the ammonia down. I have no filters to put in there, since they were all in the main tank.

I'm thinking there has to be something toxic in the tank, but I have no idea what it is. My plan currently is to check on them when I get home tonight and if they're still alive, I'll go out and get a small filter and try again to set up the quarantine tank. I'll just make sure that nothing from the current tank touches it.

Do you have any idea what this might be? And do you have any recommendations about how to detox my main tank?

Many thanks!
Anne


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

Do you notice any distress right after you do water changes? Like getting stressed out, then they settle after a few hours?

My other concern is the Algae-Fix. There have been lots of posts on here about those algae removers doing some serious harm to the fish. Many people lost entire tanks.

Did you use the Clout and Algae-Fix at the same time?


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## anagram (Feb 12, 2008)

MalawiLover said:


> Do you notice any distress right after you do water changes? Like getting stressed out, then they settle after a few hours?


Yes, when I did the initial 2 water changes, the fish sat at the bottom of the tank, but they're color was fairly normal (maybe a little darker than usual) and their mouths weren't open completely.



MalawiLover said:


> My other concern is the Algae-Fix. There have been lots of posts on here about those algae removers doing some serious harm to the fish. Many people lost entire tanks.


****! I did a search on Clout and AlgaeFix to see if there were any reported interactions, but didn't find anything. It didn't even occur to me that there would be a problem with the AlgaeFix itself.



MalawiLover said:


> Did you use the Clout and Algae-Fix at the same time?


I did. (slaps head with hand) Do you have any suggestions about how to get this stuff out of my main tank? Do I just need to chuck gravel and filter pads/media and start from scratch and re-cycle the tank? And how about my biowheel? Is it garbage now?

Thanks so much!


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

I would run carbon in your filter. It should pull out all of the clout, then do several large water changes over a couple of hours to get any remaining Algae-fix. The bio wheel should be ok, Clout says it doesn't kill the bio filtration.

BUT, before you do that, check the parameters of your tap water. Water changes should not cause a the fish to act like that. Significant changes in ph or hardness can casue real distress. It is good you are using Prime. That eliminates any chlorine/chloramine problem.

I also noticed that you are reporting 0 nitrates. That is impossible in an established tank (unless you have a very heavily planted with next to no fish. What test kit are you using?

The best remedy for algae is to keep the lights off for a few days to starve the algae present and to keep nitrates and phosphates as low as possible to prevent new growth. An algae eating fish like a bushynosed pleco or some otos do a very nice job.


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## anagram (Feb 12, 2008)

MalawiLover said:


> I would run carbon in your filter. It should pull out all of the clout, then do several large water changes over a couple of hours to get any remaining Algae-fix. The bio wheel should be ok, Clout says it doesn't kill the bio filtration.
> 
> BUT, before you do that, check the parameters of your tap water. Water changes should not cause a the fish to act like that. Significant changes in ph or hardness can casue real distress. It is good you are using Prime. That eliminates any chlorine/chloramine problem.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I've had the carbon in the filters running overnight. I'll keep up the water changes.

Good idea to check the tap water parameters. I'll do that as well.

I was surprised by that the nitrates, too, and wondering if this episode had sent my tank into a mini-cycle. I used the standard AP liquid/test tube test, not strips. I'll check the parameters again tonight and see if I'm getting any ammonia showing up.


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

I know the direction for the API nitrate kit say to shake the second solution for 30 second, but I have found much more acurate results bu shaking the snot out of it for a full minute then doing the drops imediately. The suspended stuff in that solution gets really sludgy. ALso make sure the opening in the tip is wide open. I have had crystals form in the openning and restrict to proper flow.


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## anagram (Feb 12, 2008)

I spent this evening setting up the quarantine tank, using new gravel, filter media, and some of the water from the bucket. At least I'm not having the same reaction as last night. The fish are hiding behind the filter and are a little darker than when I moved them from the bucket. They are occasionally swimming over to the airstone and they aren't gasping or trying to jump out so far. Stressed, but not freaking out.

My plan is to stabilize them in the quarantine tank, do daily water changes and monitor the parameters closely. In the meantime I'll completely tear down and clean the main tank. I'll cycle that one, as well, until the parameters are stabilized.

I'm going to take this one day at a time and will keep you posted. Thanks for your expertise. It's much appreciated.

Best,
Anne


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## anagram (Feb 12, 2008)

Fish are doing well in the quarantine tank. I'm doing 25% water changes in the morning and evening to keep the ammonia levels down. I'm in the process of taking down and re-setting up the main tank. They're color is a little pale, but I've turned the lights off in the room, drawn the blinds, and am trying to keep them as stress-free as possible.

I figure I'll know in a few months whether or not this episode has caused any significant internal damage. Thanks for all your help!


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## BLACK_AFRICAN (May 21, 2008)

MalawiLover said:


> I know the direction for the API nitrate kit say to shake the second solution for 30 second, but I have found much more acurate results bu shaking the snot out of it for a full minute then doing the drops imediately.
> 
> Wow! your questions were right on the money to get to the root of the problem Malawi Lover!
> 
> I've also found their Nitrate Test to be more accurate too if you shake #2 bottle for 1 minute vs. 30 sec.


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