# New to Cichlids 5x2x2 tank



## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

Hi All,

I am in the process of setting up the above tank having kept a reef tank for the past 12 years. The room in the pic was essentially a tank room dedicated to running the display tank which was only viewable from the other side where it is a hole in the wall tank. This room will hopefully now become a small sitting room with the tank viewed from both sides. To that end I want to set up a vibrant, colorful, quiet and easily maintained tank. I have no problems with the technical aspects of setting the system up but want to get my stocking right. The entire 5ft is usable as the overflow portion on the right is extra and I will be using that to locate heaters and external filter intakes.

After lots of reading (especially here) and googling I have come up with the following stock list; I am trying hard to stay focussed on what I want and not get sidetracked into adding this and that!!

Pseudotropheus saulosi
Pseudotropheus sp Acei
Labidochromis cearuleus
Cynotilapia sp Hara
Iodotropheus sprengerae
and 4 or 5 Synodontis Lucipinnis or similar

Can you make suggestions, give opinions, advice and suggest the numbers and sex ratio of each I should aim for.

Thanks in advance!!


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

The stocklist you listed would probably be ok, but for a show tank, it's very heavy on yellow and blue and I think you could get some additional nice eye-popping colors in there. A few options that keep most of your list intact.

Option 1:
M. sp. msobo or m. sp. "membe deep"
Pseudotropheus sp Acei (aka Ps. elegans, try to find the itungi or ngara variants)
Labidochromis cearuleus (nkhata bay)
Cynotilapia sp Hara
Iodotropheus sprengerae
and 4 or 5 Synodontis Lucipinnis or similar

Option 2:
saulosi (they have a new genus now, but I can't remember the name)
Pseudotropheus sp Acei (aka Ps. elegans, try to find the itungi or ngara variants)
Labidochromis cearuleus (nkhata bay)
Cynotilapia sp Hara
Iodotropheus sprengerae
and 4 or 5 Synodontis Lucipinnis or similar

Option 3:
saulosi or msobo or membe deep
Labeotropheus trewavasae or fuelleborni (I like the red top variants like thumbi west)
Labidochromis cearuleus (nkhata bay)
Cynotilapia sp Hara
Iodotropheus sprengerae
and 4 or 5 Synodontis Lucipinnis or similar

Male : Female ratios for most species aim for about 1:4. For the labs it's often ok if they are 1:3 or even 1:2, for metriaclima and labeotropheus go 1:5 or 1:6.


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

Kanorin, that's exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for, thanks. What would your advice on overall and group numbers be?


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## Biciclid (Jan 27, 2016)

Hi, I have recently set up two tanks with most of the species you mention as you can see in my signature, the 1st tank is coming along nicely (4 females did some holding but spat early as i think they often do the 1st time), 2nd tank put juvies in a week ago. In a big tank like yours I would definitely put the acei in, they look great and are the least likely to cause problems. I aggree that you should go either the yellow labs or the saulosi. It is a difficult one as, for "yellowness" alone I prefer the labs but the saulosi have the blue barred males that look great. If you get a bunch of these you could do 3m and a lot of females, this way you could skip the Cynotilapia (again I love mine but females are no great lookers) and maybe go for Labidochromis Perlmutt. I find thd pearl white with yellow fins of the males and the pearl white with black bars of the females makes for a lot of variety and contrasts well with most of the other mbuna and the scape that tends to be dark (although if your tank is viewable from both sides this may not be the case). I would chose between the rusties (i like them to the point of being the only species i have in both tanks) and the labeotropheus where you have great chice of either the red variants or the mcat/ob ones. Again for the sake of visual interest i would consider a striped fish, I went for Mainganos hoping them to be the least psychos of the lot. These are all pretty mainstream species, there are lots of other interesting ones but availability may vary. To recap if I had to limit myself to one tank I would probably have Acei, saulosi, perlmutt, labeotropheus and maingano; but as many on this forum will confirm the Malawi bug tends to get worse and worse so one tank no matter how big is never enough. Ciao from Italy


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## Aaron S (Apr 4, 2015)

I agree with bicichilids recommendation based on the starting fish you suggest. I would probably switch the saulosi to yellow labs if you are getting the maingano though because you will have already gotten a fish that has the gorgeous blue/black contrast and the yellow labs yellow/black contrast is very striking.


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## Biciclid (Jan 27, 2016)

Aaron S said:


> I agree with bicichilids recommendation based on the starting fish you suggest. I would probably switch the saulosi to yellow labs if you are getting the maingano though because you will have already gotten a fish that has the gorgeous blue/black contrast and the yellow labs yellow/black contrast is very striking.


Yup... Decisions decisions decisions, the only answer is to get more tanks so you can have them all. Failing that I don't think you will regret choosing either the labs or the saulosi. Although the yellow with black fins of the labs looks great I do think there is a point in having the latter with mainganos, yes they are both blue and black but the male saulosi has (vertical) bars while the mainganos have (horizontal) stripes with the females looking a little lighter and the males darker. Ultimately it comes down to personal preference. Regardless of the species selection I think the rockscape will need some planning as few "serious" mbuna tanks are set up to be viewed from both long sides. Ciao


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

Are all of the above species available to you via LFS or otherwise? We might be able to help narrow down based on what is available.


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

Thanks all, some food for thought there. Bicichlid - I will be going something with the rockwork over the next few days and will post pictures for critical analysis! I don't know if I would term it a a "serious" tank 
Kanorin - I don't know what my LFS can get me. I want to have a list, and am prepared to wait. It's too easy to give into impulse or poor advice when you're standing I front or tanks of potential tankmates. This is something I learned from reef keeping!!


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## Biciclid (Jan 27, 2016)

Sounds like a good plan, good things coming to those who wait and all that... By "serious" I just mean tanks that are aimed at fulfilling the fish's requirements rather than the fishkeeper's quirks. As mentioned you have been doing, being myself a recently converted to mbunas I did a fair bit of browsing and have seen a fair number of stunning rockscapes then swiftly proceeded to do something probably not very "trendy" and then did it again but worse with the second tank. I think on one hand you have to give heed to the advice of the folks on this site who have the experience derived from having kept the little blighters for years, on the other every tank is like a different microsystem, what works in one may not work in another and the only way to find out is to try. Good thing is that, unless you buy really expensive artificial modules and you silicone them to the tank, it is easy to shuffle the rocks about. Probably with a tank like yours the temptation would be to put a thin ridge of rocks along the middle line of the tank but I wonder if this may not give the fish enough cover to make them feel safe. With your setup I would probably pile as much rock as possible up both short sides then do one or two big piles in the middle. In the few months I have been keeping these fish I have appreciated how much they enjoy having plenty of rocks to dart among but hopefully folks who have succesfully set up room divider tanks can give you more experience based advice. Ciao


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

IME the acei and hara are a similar mid-blue color. I decided to eliminate one in my tank...the acei made an exit. Nothing wrong with keeping them together...I just wanted a more dramatic contrast.


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

Ah yes Bicichlid, rockwork..... TBH I could probably do with some direction here too. After lots of googling malawi biotopes and aquascapes I am amazed at how artificial and sterile so many look. I though I would save a load of pictures and use them for inspiration; I saved two!! This is one of them...










While to me it looks natural, I dont know how close it is to ideal for the fish. If anyone here can point me to a picture of tank-scape that would be considered ideal cichlid real estate I'd appreciate it. Selling the idea of a tank full of algae covered rock after coming from a reef tank might be a tough one.


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## Biciclid (Jan 27, 2016)

As you rightly say coming frim a reef tank, or in my case a heavily planted one (that I still have...) setting up a malawi scape seems a bit wierd with no "life" to soften the edges or cover a multitude of sins, what you see is what you get (with a few uninspiring brown algae thrown in). Rather than looking at pictures of tanks for inspiration I watched plenty of youtube videos from the lake and what you see is loads of ugly brown algae covered boulders piled on top of each other with very little sand/silt. But the fish continually dart in and out of all the nooks and crannies so I decided that, although the end result was going to look artificial, I was going to pile on as many rocks (straight from the paddock outside) with as many interlinked "caves" as possible. Although aesthetically questionable at least for now it seems to be working for the fish, they spend most of the time darting in and out and seem to br swimming "with a purpose" rather than hanging midwater looking bored and with nowhere to go, as you see in videos of tanks with "mininmal chic" rockscapes. Some have said that once all the fish get fully mature one continuous rockscape can cause problems as the top dog will claim it all for himself, having separate piles may prevent that. If that proves to be the case it will be back to the drawing board for me. 
Here is my 6 foot tank, again the rockscape looks artificial and clumsy but I can live with it as the fish seem to have a behaviour that appears "natural". I am not saying this is the right way to go about it, just my 2 (euro) cents. Ciao


As mentioned I did even worse with the second tank, even bigger rocks!


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Ideal rockscape? That's a good question, but you may get 2 schools of thought on that.

The fish will not care if you load the tank with rocks or fake castles from the LFS. Since you're looking at mbuna you'll want to add 'structure' from one of the tank to the other. You could head to the hardware store and buy concrete pavers then stack them together to create 'caves' and territories. Similar to this photo-










But this is unnatural and boring, IMO. I feel that if you're setting up a cichlid tank for a display in your home, then you should take the opportunity to create a small piece of nature. Kind of like the picture you linked. I choose the same type and color of rock. I like a monster boulder that can stand on its own, then build around that. Although algae covered rocks set against a dark background may not excite everyone, it will showcase the fish perfectly.

This is my all time favorite rockscape. Again, it's for mbuna, so appropriate for what you're trying to do-





And Bicichlid gave good advice about watching a dive video from Malawi. But I believe you can achieve something that does look natural and not strictly artificial. We cannot fit Cadillac sized boulders into our tanks. But we can replicate the edge of reef as it tapers off into the sandy, deep stretches. Here's a dive vid-


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

Iggy - The 700L biotope was the other scape I saved!! They look easy but when you go to try and replicate them..... I'm thinking there must be some golden ratio of relative sizes that gives a look thats "natural" at any scale.


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## Biciclid (Jan 27, 2016)

Usually the "ratio" that visually seems more natural to the eye is the one that follows the "rule of thirds" that often photographers use for composing their shots. Probably your camera and your smartphone have a "rule of thirds" grid that you can use to view your tank with that superimposed. What kind of rocks are you thinking to use? As Iggy said the fish will not care what you use, as long as they are not sharp. I would avoid lace limestone (texas holey rock) as I think it looks really fake. Colour is relatively irrelevant as they will probably get covered in dark algae (mine are already a lot darker than in the photo above) unless your favourite pastime is scrubbing rock. The good thing owf spending 4 weeks or so cycling the tank is that you have plenty of time tinkering with the rocks, just make sure you put some eggcrate or similar on the bottom of the tank to prevent expensive accidents if a rock takes a tumble. Ciao


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

At the moment I'm messing unsuccessfully with these;










But also have plenty of this, sandstone I think;


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## Biciclid (Jan 27, 2016)

I would go for the limestone, i think it looks more interesting and alliws you more creative freedom, with the round ones you will probably end up with a piramid of cannonballs. I have posted some videos I took today of my tanks. Hope it shows you some of the fish you were thinking about and how the fish in the 1st tank really seem to relish a rockscape with plenty of hidey-holes. I think that as long as you give the fish that the aesthetics are up to you. Ciao


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

It's certainly a personal preference thing, but I'd lean towards the first photo of rocks. It's hard to judge the size from the photos. Bicichlid mentioned the rule of thirds and I think that's great to design your scape around. I like to do a peak at one 1/3 and a 2nd peak at the other 1/3 as long as it doesn't rival the first.

I did a scape that had a 'uniform' style of rock. Has quick edges but still a natural look overall. It can definitely work well. I made a video of it some time ago-


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I love the smooth rounded rocks...even without the fish. I have a different style in each tank...smooth rounded rocks for the mbuna...fractured black rocks for the Tanganyikans and a unique rock to this area called puddingstone with is dull red/purple with chunks of white quartz thoughout in the hap/peacock tank.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Puddingstone?
I need a visual...


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

Iggy, I really like that scape. I think its very natural looking. The rounded rocks are just bland to look at. The boards outline a 5 x 2 footprint so some of them are quite big. As its a 2 Ft tall tank I want to try and get height into it to move the action up. I might have a go with the other stuff and see what it looks like.


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## Biciclid (Jan 27, 2016)

Hi, here I am talking with the experience of only a few months so I may be pissing way out of the provebial pot but if by moving the action up you mean getting the fish to use the entire water column rather than just the bottom 1/2 them piling the rocks high may not make a huge difference, maybe because for the fish 2 foot deep is still "dangerously close to the surface, barely getting wet territory". The majority of these fish in the lake happily live 30-60 foot deep. Some species like the Acei are comfortable just at the surface, maybe others are not. I have noticed that in totally bare (like in fish shops) or minimally rockscaped tanks the fish tend to wonder aimlessly through all the volume of the tank but give the fish a few good rocks and they will hug the bottom. I have huge slabs going to 1" below the surface, also to give some cover if any get bullied to the "loft" but it is not doing much to keep the general population aloft. Ciao


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Puddingstone?
> I need a visual...




It is overexposed to get the true color, but the slab on the right is a good example.


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

It is all pretty much subjective and trial and error. Do what you like and improve with practice.

Big rocks are cool but are kinda hard to use in reality. Dark rocks look better. Try to make an illusion that the tank is full of rocks. Try to create separate zones, to block the inhabitants line of sight across the tank.

Try to avoid sharp rocks, smooth edges are safer and more natural. Slabs can make a nice dark tunnel, and fish like having dark areas, and fish can use the top of the slab as another surface but avoid making a "house of cards" with rocks for many reasons.

Many small holes, crevices are only good for fry. Actual closed caves are of limited use, and most fish do like to feel "trapped". You can't make a territory for every fish, they will do what they do. You can't solve major problems with rocks, you don't want fish trying to hide to survive.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

DJRansome said:


> Iggy Newcastle said:
> 
> 
> > Puddingstone?
> ...


Thanks. I definitely recognize that photo of yours.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

daviddj said:


> Iggy, I really like that scape. I think its very natural looking. The rounded rocks are just bland to look at. The boards outline a 5 x 2 footprint so some of them are quite big. As its a 2 Ft tall tank I want to try and get height into it to move the action up. I might have a go with the other stuff and see what it looks like.


Thanks. Getting some height in a 2 foot tank is a challenge. If you are 8-10" from the surface you're doing pretty good, I think. Lowering a rock that size into the tank is a tense situation, for sure! A rock that can stand on it's own is key.


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

Thanks guys. Heres my first effort with the other rock. It's easier to work with and I'm not unhappy with the direction its going in. The high point is 21 inches. It's not as natural as I'd like but good potential for caves. After cleaning I will run a grinder over the edges to round them off.

Front and back


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## Biciclid (Jan 27, 2016)

I think the fish won't mind which rocks you chose, as long as there is enough of them. It is your living room so it a matter of what you want to look at while you are sitting in your living room/snug. Put some eggcrate on the bottom and start playing with rocks in the tank! Only way to know how it will look.


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

Kanorin said:


> Are all of the above species available to you via LFS or otherwise? We might be able to help narrow down based on what is available.


I had a chat with my LFS and gave them the following proposed stock list;

Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos "Maingano"
Pseudotropheus sp. acei black OR Pseudotropheus sp. acei Itungi
labidochromis caeruleus
Labidochromis sp. "Perlmutt"
Iodotropheus sprengerae
Synodontis lucipinnis or similar small syno.

They can get all of these but maybe not all in one order. They will also be unsexed juveniles. 
I will be cycling the tank fishless with ammonia and using 5-6 liters of Seachem Matrix so should have a decent biological filtration capacity built up by the time I come to adding the fish.

What is the best approach to stocking the tank; all in one go or in a number of phases?
In relation to achieving the final M:F ratio should I over-order juveniles planning to remove excess males or rely on removing and adding individuals as they mature?
What is the final number of adult fish I should be aiming for in this tank?

My LFS says I'm over-thinking it but TBH I'm not over impressed by some of their advice so far.

Thanks guys


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

daviddj said:


> What is the best approach to stocking the tank; all in one go or in a number of phases?
> In relation to achieving the final M:F ratio should I over-order juveniles planning to remove excess males or rely on removing and adding individuals as they mature?
> What is the final number of adult fish I should be aiming for in this tank?


I'd add them all at once, or as many as possible all at once and then don't add singles later on...add new fish to an established tank in significant numbers. To get enough females you want to order extra fish...50/50 chance of unsexed juvenile being female. 1m:4f for all species except maingano and 1m:7f for them, plus 5 Synodontis.

The problem with adding females later is you have to wait for them to be mature enough to spawn to solve aggression problems...and that can be a long wait if the resident females are being harassed daily.


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

Thanks for that, nothing like the voice of experience.


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

So started fishless cycle with ~2ppm ammonia and Seachem stability yesterday. LFS on standby to order fish!! It would appear they cannot get the P. acei black or itungi I was looking for but can get ngara. These do not seem to be as dark as the black. Any opinions or alternatives?

A couple of pics showing the tank from the front and back;


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The yellow tails are not black at all...they are a nice periwinkle blue with yellow fins. They will look great in your tank.


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## Biciclid (Jan 27, 2016)

Yup, regular yellowtails are lookers, concerned the ngara look a bit dull. Consider that your male mainganos will end up looking mostly black.Ciao


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

TBH I'm a bit confused :-? about the P.acei variants and their colours. I guess this is the downside of not being able to see them in person but depending on google to see what they look like.
I thought the normal was blue with yellow tail and didn't want too much blue with the Mainganos. I thought itungi, ngara and Tanzania black were all darker variants with Tanzania black being the darkest with a white tail. Are itungi and Tanzania black the same? Is ngara a white tail variant? If the Mainganos are to the darker end of the blues maybe I am better going with ordinary aceis rather than looking for the darker variants?

A normal P acei?









An itungi









An ngara









And what I thought was a Tanzania black but could be an ngara???


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Remember photos can vary depending on lighting.

Maingano is cobalt blue and black. Very different shades of blue. And because of the black on the maingano...the yellow tails do contrast. I would be more worried about the maingano and the white tails being too similar.

The pic you show of yellow tail acei is perfect lighting and the fish WILL look like that when he swims under the light and the scales reflect just right.

Bottom line it is a mid-blue/periwinkle fish with yellow fins.

I've seen the white tails look a bit more navy than what you are showing...the last 2 pics are dark due to lighting...one is lit from behind and one you can tell by the background the lighting is subdued.


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

Once again DJRansome I have to thank you. Indeed the pictures you see online can be very deceptive and it can be difficult to tell what fish really look like. It was easier with marines as generally the juvenile looks pretty similar to the adult and for some reason many of the reference pictures online are quite accurate (unlike corals which are photoshopped to the last. As my LFS only has juvenile cichlids its harder to judge. Anyway you've saved me making a mistake as the normal acei will provide a better contrast than the darker ones. Thanks again!


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## XpensiveWino (Aug 4, 2016)

Wait, sorry to veer slightly off topic, but can you explain the comment about egg crate to help defend against tumbling rocks? What egg crate? How is it positioned installed?


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## Biciclid (Jan 27, 2016)

XpensiveWino said:


> Wait, sorry to veer slightly off topic, but can you explain the comment about egg crate to help defend against tumbling rocks? What egg crate? How is it positioned installed?


Just on the bare bottom of the tank, then you put the rocks on top, then you put the sand in.


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## Biciclid (Jan 27, 2016)

DJRansome said:


> Remember photos can vary depending on lighting.
> 
> Maingano is cobalt blue and black. Very different shades of blue. And because of the black on the maingano...the yellow tails do contrast. I would be more worried about the maingano and the white tails being too similar.
> 
> ...


100% with DJ, the mainganos look a lot more similar to the ngara (that have white tails) than to the regular yellow tail acei. If instead of the mainganos you were having a more mid blue species then the ngara would have stood out


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

Biciclid said:


> 100% with DJ, the mainganos look a lot more similar to the ngara (that have white tails) than to the regular yellow tail acei. If instead of the mainganos you were having a more mid blue species then the ngara would have stood out


I like the colour of the Maingano. In an ideal world I'd have picked demasoni but all the advice seems to say NO!  If you think they would be a practical option to the mainganos let me know :roll:


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Maingano are easier to keep and you don't need such a big gang to manage aggression. But if you want to do the work associated with demasoni and are willing to give up a species...go for it. Definitely my favorites. But also the most trouble of any fish I have ever kept!


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

Yeah, no, this tank is supposed to be trouble with a very small t. Maybe some day a nice little cube with only demasoni.....


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## Biciclid (Jan 27, 2016)

If I ever get back to Blighty in my dream 12 foot tank I would like to put "giant Demasoni" that are ment to be less psycho (Pseudotropheus "Dolphin" Manda) that you occasionally see on Tony's website. Over here in Italy unavailable, maybe some say in France from Abysse... Still a heck of a long drive


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## Biciclid (Jan 27, 2016)

They do look cool


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I've seen mixed reviews on the behavior of the giant demasoni...some say they are skittish.


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## Biciclid (Jan 27, 2016)

Anyway for me at least it will be for the distant future


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

So most of my fish have arrived at my LFS. I will collect them in a couple of days. Do juvenile labidochromis caeruleus have the black markings or do they develop in time? I notice that on the wholesaler list they are described as Labidochromis sp. yellow/gold. Do you think this means they aren't caeruleus?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

They have the black when they are spit. I would not accept them.


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

Hmmm... That's what I thought. I dont, and haven't seen caeruleus on the distributors list. My choices here are very limited.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

DJRansome said:


> I've seen mixed reviews on the behavior of the giant demasoni...some say they are skittish.


Mine were... but they were wilds, and I think you might have got that from me. Seems tank raised are less so... at least in what I'm guessing.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I've heard that from several experienced fishkeepers. IDK whether all were wild.


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

DJRansome said:


> They have the black when they are spit. I would not accept them.


As it turned out they do have blackmarkings. They were just very washed out after only arriving last week. Anyway all fish now in the tank; nice after nearly a year empty. I won't have the rusties till January and the Synos arrive later this week. Big thanks for the help here especially DJRansome and Bicichlid.


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

More questions 

It's nearly two weeks and all the fish are healthy and settled; no casualties.

There was a mix up when I collected the fish and instead of L. sp Perlmutt I took home a bunch of white Labs. I have nearly all of them caught and will swop them for my Perlmutt early next week.

Q1. One of the male white labs is particularly nice looking and I am tempted to keep him. This would give a final group of 2 males (one white, one yellow) with 4 (ish) females. Good or bad idea?

Q2. Male mainganos; how soon to start removing? I have 11 fish and definitely at least 4-6 males (much darker colours, more aggressive, have their own little territories) Should I wait or try and catch some of them now? They are not at all as obliging as the Labs and Acei in entering my fish trap 

Q3. Acei. I have 8 with a final figure of 5 in mind. As they are not easy to sex should I just base removal on behavior or some other criteria? There is one particularly small one that I might remove this weekend.

Thanks


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## tanker3 (May 18, 2015)

1) I like, and have both the Perlmutts and White Labs, but they do look very similar. They may cross breed, but if you do not care if they hybrid, I would just wait and see.

2) I would remove as many Males as I see because they are so aggressive with each other, just a matter of time before they fight.

3) I have never kept more then 3 Acei at any given time (a very peaceful fish), but I would only remove extras as needed.


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

Thanks for the reply tanker3.

I left out an important point! I also have yellow labs. I was intending a group of yellow labs and a group of perlmutt. I ended up, mistakenly with yellow and white labs. While the whites are nice I would prefer the variation in shape as well as colour of the perlmutt.

So my question should have been; Do I keep the single (very attractive) male (I think) white lab with my yellow labs giving a final group of 1 white male, 1 yellow male and 4 ish yellow females.?


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## tanker3 (May 18, 2015)

IMO, the yellow and white males may fight, but if you have a big enough tank (and again if you do not save the fry), then IMO--It should be OK.


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

No, I'm not bothered about the fry and if they fight I can always move him on. So it might be worth having a go...


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Do you have Synodontis multipunctatus for fry patrol? You may get survivors.


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

DJRansome said:


> Do you have Synodontis multipunctatus for fry patrol? You may get survivors.


I have petricolas. I was hoping they would have an impact on fry numbers.


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

My DIY fish trap. A piece of fishing line rotates the door closed. 8 out of 10 white labs caught so far. Acei and yellow labs think it's a great idea, mainganos less certain.


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

So after considerable googling it would appear that my idea that sexing Mainganos is easy was naive in the extreme. Honestly, even if I could catch all 11 in order to "vent" them, I'd be like a goat looking into a bucket 
I do have a couple that go nearly black, with a few others that are dark. There is a bit of chasing but no murder yet. Obviously I need to reduce the overall number so any advice on the best course of action. 
Thx


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would just remove troublemakers as they surface.


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

A quick update and of course a question. All is going well with the of the fish showing good growth. The only fatalities I have had are among the Perlmutt which is a pity as they are actually my favorite. I have my suspicions as to the cause but it due to a mix up, mentioned previously, they spent considerably longer at the LFS than any of the others.
Anyway my question. I am still waiting on my rusties. They didn't come in the December order and the LFS January order should be happening in the next few weeks. I'm this thinking of having an alternative option so that that I'm not left high and dry again and have been considering Labeotropheus trewassae chilumba or similar. Any opinions or advice keeping in mind my aim of maximising colour and variety and that I dont find the marmalade or OBs attractive.
TIA.


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)




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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Wouldn't the Labeotropheus give you one colored fish whereas the rusties would all be colored?

Four species would actually be enough for a 60" tank if you just wanted to stop there. Or you could double up on your favorites, the perlmutts.

Are the yellow labs giving them problems?


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

Tank Update

It's just over three months since I stocked the tank and I've had mixed results. I initially added 11 mainganos, 9 acei, 10-ish yellow labs and 10 ish "perlmutts". It took me a couple of weeks of scratching and looking at pictures to figure out that my "perlmutts" were white labs. The LFS agreed a mistake had been made and I caught all but one of the white labs and swopped them for 8 perlmutts.

Up till this I had lost no fish and everything seemed peaceful but this changed after adding the perlmutts. One by one they died; they would start hanging out alone, stop eating and eventually die. Two survived and have thrived.
The maingano and acei have flourished growing substantially faster than anything else, I removed one acei that was a bit of a runt (there's another runt I intend removing too) and one of four mainganos that I thought might be male (at least showed more aggression than the others).

About 6 weeks ago I added 5 S. petricolas. They were hanging out in the mainganos prime location and over a week I lost all five one by one, in the same manner. They seemed to go from normal to rapid gill movements to dead overnight - never during the day, always overnight. They hid constantly and I never saw them feed. My yellow labs had also started to die one by one, hiding in the top corners of the tank.

As an experiment, to see if the water or anything in it was a problem I set up a 10 g quarantine tank with its own sponge filter but fed from the overflow (continual water change) from the DT and added two new yellow labs. 
My suspicion was that the territorial aggression of the mainganos was stressing and weakening the fish which were then been targeted by the acei. I saw an acei grab a stressed yellow lab by the tail and thrash it around. I quickly netted it but it died a few hours later.

By chance I managed to trap what I regarded to be the most troublesome maingano and placed him in the QT with the two yellow labs who had happily occupied it for around ten days; within 24 hours one was dead and the other hiding at the top of the tank. In what was a big mistake I returned the maingano to the DT to prevent him killing the other lab and 24 hours later two maingano, including my favourite, an almost all-black, were dead.

Since that things have quietened down considerably although I do think there is another manigano that I could do with catching.

A week ago I added 8 Rusties, 6 Perlmutts and 6 yellow labs (some of which I had previously rescued from the DT) after having them in the QT tank for 10 days. So far no fatalities but I have had to remove a lab and an acei who were getting bullied.

Aside from continuing to manage what I have I hope to try adding some petricolas again. I will keep them in the QT tank for a week or more to be sure that they are eating before adding them to the DT.

I'm not entirely happy with the group of yellow labs that I have and might consider replacing them in the not too distant future if I can get what I'm after.

Fingers crossed.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Sorry to hear your troubles...

Sounds like a classic case of bloat brought on by stress, or possibly introduced by the Perlmutts. Not sure on your cats though... If you continue to have any more of the symptoms you've mentioned, you'll need to act quickly. Take a look at this article if you have not done so already-

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/malawi_bloat.php


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

Hi Iggy, 
I guess it's normal mbuna stuff...

I did consider that the perlmutts brought something in with them as they had spent 3 weeks at the LFS but the LFS have not lost any. I do think its stress induced and blame the mainganos!! Also adding small numbers was probably not a great idea. As I figured out a system I was able to remove bullied fish before they were too far gone and after they had recovered (relaxed and started eating again in the QT) reintroduced them along with my new fish in a large batch (20) and that has been successful. I am less sure how to reintroduce the lone acei I just pulled out today though 

Naturally I would do it differently with the benefit of hindsight..


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

daviddj,

Thanks for the detailed update ... :thumb:

Just out of curiosity, what where the approximate size/lengths of the fish ? (mainganos, acei, yellow labs and perlmutts)


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

Hi Wryan,
In December all were around 1-1.5". Now, in the video above the acei are a chunky 3-4", the maingano 2-2.5". The small rusties and perlmutts are about 1".


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

It's unusual for Synodontis to die from something like that...mine live through EVERYTHING except once I lost a bunch by doing too big of a water change after a period of high nitrates, and once I lost a bunch by over dosing Excel.

I've never lost a Syno in a tank that was going through a bloat epidemic.

I'd hold the acei until you get your new fish. Quarantine new the guys and add the acei along with them.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

daviddj said:


> Hi Wryan,
> In December all were around 1-1.5". Now, in the video above the acei are a chunky 3-4", the maingano 2-2.5". The small rusties and perlmutts are about 1".


Thanks.

I was primarily wondering about the acei, as mine are starting to exhibit more aggressive behavior recently - mainly just fin spreading, shaking/vibrating, and short chases. It is probably due in large part to current tank mates. To a large extent, it seems to be directed at other acei tho' ...

The 7 acei I have, I picked up back in December and at the time they were around 1 1/4" to 1 1/2", IIRC. Currently they are 2" to 2 1/4".

The right side of the 55G that they are in has been taken over by a male auratus (mid to top level) and a julidochromis (mid to bottom) ... those two keep most of the other fish (7 acei, 4 other auratus, a clown and a tiger loach, 1 other smaller julie, and a pair of BNP's) herded over to the left side of the tank for the most part ... so it's a little crowded on the left, which is probably increasing the aggression levels.

And most all of the auratus are pretty aggressive generally, and it's not confined to conspecifics ... that there is courting going on by the male with several of the female auratus probably isn't helping matters any either.

Probably time to consider moving fish around to other tanks.

BTW - nice DIY fish trap ... :thumb:


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## DutchAJ (Dec 24, 2016)

The acei shaking and vibrating sounds like mating behavior to me...


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

DutchAJ said:


> The acei shaking and vibrating sounds like mating behavior to me...


That's what I was thinking as well ... the ones that these shaking displays are being targeted towards seem receptive (they're circling and not swimming away)

Just didn't know if at that size if the were ready to do the deed, given how large they get at full maturity.


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## Aaron S (Apr 4, 2015)

Circling can be aggression too. FYI. It is darn difficult to figure out if its play or fighting.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Aaron S said:


> Circling can be aggression too. FYI. It is darn difficult to figure out if its play or fighting.


Plus one.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Thanks.


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

My (very limited) experience of my acei is this;

They have grown exceptionally fast; possible it's proportional to their final size, possibly due to the fact that they seem to get to the food before any other fish and eat more than any other fish. (See Q1 below)
They don't interact with, or harass other fish at all UNLESS the other fish is weak or injured then they become very predatorial and "focused" 
There has been no con-specific aggression at all until two days ago when all 6 left number 7 floating on one side on the surface; I was able to scoop him out with my hand. I left him in the QT for 24 hours before returning him to the DT where he is no longer under attack but neither is he fully "in-the -gang" either. I returned him and a yellow lab that had been recuperating for a week by not feeding the tank all day. Then while feeding at one end of the tank I dumped the two fish in at the other end - noone seemed to notice :thumb: (See Q2)

So; 
Q1 Feeding - small and frequent vs a larger and fewer. The smaller the feeds the more of the food the acei eat and the less the other fish get. With larger feeds more seems to "trickle down" to the smaller or less assertive fish.

Q2 After removing a fish from the DT how long does it take for the other fish to "forget" him? Is there a window where they will remember him as a tank-mate if he is returned? Does anyone have any theories on whether sharing tank water has any effect on recognition or familiarization? https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00265-016-2260-6


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Q1-
Whatever you plan on feeding, do it all at once. Hold the food in pinched fingers, in current. Let go and let the water flow blow all the food everywhere. This will eliminate your problem with hogs eating everything.

Q2-
Interesting question. My hypothesis would be a couple hours, tops. No issues. I've pulled holding females, stripped and put right back in the primary tank. No issues. I've separated holding females for several days, and their introduction to the primary tank is met with 'new guy' attention. I certainly don't think these fish are brainless killers, but their memory is awful IMO.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

daviddj said:


> My (very limited) experience of my acei is this;
> 
> They have grown exceptionally fast; possible it's proportional to their final size, possibly due to the fact that they seem to get to the food before any other fish and eat more than any other fish. (See Q1 below)


Mine do not appear to have grown quite as fast as yours ... but then they are in a smaller tank (48 x 12 x 21)

They are certainly pigs tho' when it comes to food.



daviddj said:


> They don't interact with, or harass other fish at all UNLESS the other fish is weak or injured then they become very predatorial and "focused"
> There has been no con-specific aggression at all until two days ago when all 6 left number 7 floating on one side on the surface; I was able to scoop him out with my hand. I left him in the QT for 24 hours before returning him to the DT where he is no longer under attack but neither is he fully "in-the -gang" either. I returned him and a yellow lab that had been recuperating for a week by not feeding the tank all day. Then while feeding at one end of the tank I dumped the two fish in at the other end - noone seemed to notice :thumb: (See Q2)


I can't say that there is currently no aggression by the acei's here ... but for the most part it seems pretty mild and is all very short-lived (mostly measured in a few seconds, with no extended interactions)

And almost all of the unprovoked acei aggression is conspecific.



daviddj said:


> So;
> Q1 Feeding - small and frequent vs a larger and fewer. The smaller the feeds the more of the food the acei eat and the less the other fish get. With larger feeds more seems to "trickle down" to the smaller or less assertive fish.


When I'm feeding sinking pellets I feed enough that the majority of gets consumed within 30 seconds, leaving some to hit the substrate for the bottom feeders (loachs, BNPs)

When feeding veggie wafers which are hard and too big for any fish to fit in their mouths, they obviously stay in the tank unconsumed for a longer period of time ... but they are usually gone within an hour.

Generally speaking, I feed 3 to 5 times per day and give them a day off about every week or 10 days. What they get fed is a mix: Flakes, Small Sinking Cichlid Pellets, Veggie Rounds, Freeze-dried Tubifex (all Omega One) and occasionally my own home brewed food which is a dried mix of vegetables and shrimp.



daviddj said:


> Q2 After removing a fish from the DT how long does it take for the other fish to "forget" him? Is there a window where they will remember him as a tank-mate if he is returned? Does anyone have any theories on whether sharing tank water has any effect on recognition or familiarization? https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00265-016-2260-6


FWIW, I had an auratus that I removed from the 55G and stuck it in a 10G about a month or so ago because it was particularly quarrelsome (initiating aggression, and not just conspecific aggression) ... I put it back in the 55G yesterday afternoon and it was immediately targeted and harassed by the other auratus.

As of now that is still going on, at least to some degree ...


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## Leyshpunctatus (Feb 19, 2016)

Q2 - Not so sure for other fish in general but I have read that the Paradise Fish can remember an altercation with another fish for up to 4 months after.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Are you asking Q2 to determine whether time out works...or just intellectual curiosity?


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

DJRansome said:


> Are you asking Q2 to determine whether time out works...or just intellectual curiosity?


Mostly the latter... Just curious about how they identify each other, if at all; subtle detail, broad patterns or biochemical cues. And for how long they retain that information. Is there a difference reintroducing a fish that has been held in one of those in tank breeding nets over one from a separate tank?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/28111346


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't bother with reintroducing any more. If find that the same result happens regardless of the length of time out. And I would not keep an adult fish in a breeder box more than one day and fry more than 7 days.

I believe there are many theories about how the fish interact and no one theory accepted as fact at this time.


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

DJRansome said:


> I don't bother with reintroducing any more. If find that the same result happens regardless of the length of time out. And I would not keep an adult fish in a breeder box more than one day and fry more than 7 days.
> 
> I believe there are many theories about how the fish interact and no one theory accepted as fact at this time.


As usual thanks for the advice. It's mad how easy saltwater fish were in comparison..


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