# American Cichlid and african cichlid together



## zeh (Apr 26, 2010)

I have 4 afriacan cichlids and someone gave me a couple of Archocentrus nigrofasciatus (american cichlids). I am wondering if it's gonna have some trouble put all of them together in the same tank.
Thanks


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

What is the size of tank, and what species of african cichlids are they?


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Good question . Some African cichlids will win the battle if it starts, others will lose. Convicts can get pretty rough if they get ready to spawn. Same for some of the Africans. My position on these questions is to learn what might be expected and how your fish interact with each other. The only true answer I see is that things will change over time. Small fish often do well for months and then the whole story changes as they mature. I recommend learning to recognize how your fish act normally and what they may do when stressed. That will be your early warning that something is going to need change. Have in mind what you may need to do and then do it if needed. Enjoy the fish now and expect change. Selling, trading, or moving fish to new tanks is a constant part of most tanks.


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## marinerm10 (Feb 2, 2010)

I had some malawis in with my big male Jack Dempsey once in my 55 gallon. The Jack would not even risk trying to drive away some of the malawis. The malawis didnt seem to want to risk being attacked by the Jack. It therefore resulted in a perfect balance - however as pfunmo stated, things will change over time.

I had one of the malawis going over to the Jack and baring in mind he was much smaller than the Jack - he would just poke his head against Jack and push him in order to provoke him - Jack confidently hovered there not moving then one day it kicked off and Jack had a number of scars so I got the Malawis out. I also think that the malawis can create gangs and team together to fight another specie as this is what kind of happened to me. He's on his own now and I wouldnt bother doing that again. Give it a try but be prepared to get them out if something happens. Good luck.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

If the tank is large enough, and you have it decorated correctly, most Africans are compatible with most CA cichlids. It isn't ideal though.


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## toume (Oct 7, 2010)

It also depends on what Af. cichlids you have. Seriously. Some might do ok, and some are just way too aggressive for cons.

Mbuna are vicious about defending their territory, and they might stake out too much, leaving little to no room for your cons.

Cons are scrappy, but I would never chance my cons with my Africans. A mated pair of cons might be okay, but I've seen Afs draw blood and rip each other to pieces.

So, again, what African cichlid species are we dealing with? 
A group of 4--hopefully one species? Hopefully of only one male?


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

toume said:


> and some are just way too aggressive for cons.


I suppose if by African your refferring to Tilapia buttikoferri or Hemichromis elongatus ---- then yes, in many instances they may prove to be too aggressive for convicts. A few of had success housing these together in large tanks, though I doubt all that many. But, if , as I gather from your post, your reffering to mbuna, I really can't agree with this. Of course it depends on a lot of variables ----including TANK SIZE, and how the fish are introduced amongst many factores.










This is a picture of an encounter, in a 6 ft. 180 gal. between a male con and male auratus. This encounter took place pretty much on the opposite side of the tank of the Male con's territory. If it realy was such a serious competitor for the con, the encouter should be taking place on the border of the con's territory, not the other side of the tank. It was breif; an exchange of blows. Con gave better then he got and that was it. Mbuna aren't stupid.










This is a picture to show you that my male auratus was not insignificant. 5" TL. That's considered adult, though of course they can get bigger.( Belly is exaggerated in picture due to the shape of the fish turning the belly upwards and my poor photography skills combined with a cheap disposable camera. Auratus' belly really is, as shown in first pic).

These are a couple pics from my 6 ft. 125 gal.:


















The last picture is of a female auratus (yes that's a KNOWN female)who was purchased at a small size, october 2009. All other mbuna purchased feb., 2010, also at a small size. 5 cons were intoduced last april, 2010 at 3 months of age, at a tiny size. Mbuna don't focus too much on the cons in this tank ----more concerned with each other. 1 pair has developed and threatens with male auratus some times, though more so with salvinis. Other 3 cons are not paired but are doing more then fine.

IME, cons have done fine with auratus, kenyi and bumble bee in 6 ft. tanks. Are there more aggressive mbuna than these? I'm not advocating keeping these species of mbuna, as I know it's more likely to have thing work out well with less aggressive species of mbuna; but just trying to show that cons can often handle these, and then some.


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## toume (Oct 7, 2010)

Well of course in 6 ft tank, ha! 
And auratus would be one of the bullies I was referring to (along with kenyi).

I didn't say they couldn't get along, just that I wouldn't recommend it. There will always be outliers, but the general consensus is that Mbuna don't do well with CA/SA. The larger Haps/peacocks can be a different story.

But, maybe my Cons are more neutral...except during breeding cycles for the cons.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Bernie, yes there are more aggressive mbuna species than the ones that you have. Petrotilapia species and the long snout type Melanochromis (which are not vegetarian) such as M. Chipokae.

And yes toume, tank size is definitely a factor.

I actually have a lot more experience with Malawi cichlids than I do with CA's. I have kept and bred many of the Malawis on the market.

And I have mixed a lot of cichlids that "can't be kept together." In most cases, most species can be kept together as long as the tank is large enough, and you understand the natural behavior of each species---so that the decor is set up correctly. For mbuna and CA's, all that usually is required is separate distinct territories: one side is a rockwork area, the other side is a driftwood area (which the CA's usually claim), and an open area in between. It works about 90% of the time.

By the way, I learned how to do this by learning how to mix mbuna with non-mbuna Malawi cichlids. Then I progressed to cichlids from the different African lakes---most Tanganyikans are substrate spawners, so once I learned how to do that, it was easy to substitute CA's.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

oldcatfish said:


> Petrotilapia species and the long snout type Melanochromis (which are not vegetarian) such as M. Chipokae.
> For mbuna and CA's, all that usually is required is separate distinct territories: one side is a rockwork area, the other side is a driftwood area (which the CA's usually claim), and an open area in between.


Petrotilapia -----not familiar with them. Seen pictures of them since i was a kid, but not even sure i have seen one in real life.

M. chipokae ------- a lot of people have kept both auratus and chipokae. From people I have talked to and from a lot of reading on fish fourums, a lot of people who have kept both are claiming auratus, to be the more aggressive of the two. I realize they are both aggressive species, but there is no definitive verdict on which is the more aggressive. Since I have never kept chipokae, I couldn't say either way. I realize chipokae reaches a larger size, so it may very well be the more capable of the two -------- but from what I can see, a lot more people who have kept both, see auratus as the more aggressive species.

Been mixing for over 30 years, so it's not new to me. Don't agree with your idea of seperate rock and driftwood areas being prefferred by one or the other. IME, what a hiding spot is made out of will have nothing to do with prefferred territory. Currently, the driftwood area in the middle of my 125. gal. is calimed by a small female auratus. The only prefernce I have ever noted is a large flat rock leaned up into a corner to make a cave -----it is always the most prefferred territory and spawning site of all my C.A. cichlids. The most dominant C.A. always claim it in my tanks.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I feel like the main factor in who claims which territory may be more a matter of the size of the openings rather than what material. I find mbuna like rock piles but then they do seem to like smaller spaces. When I use wood, the openings are often much larger which seems to appeal more to the larger bodied CA/SA group. Maybe if the door is only 2 inches high they don't want to mess with squeezing a 3 inch high body through? A 2 inch door looks fine to many mbuna.

I do prefer to keep my African and CA/SA groups separate.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

PfunMo said:


> I feel like the main factor in who claims which territory may be more a matter of the size of the openings rather than what material.


I'd have to agree with this, to a large extent. (Of course who gets to claim what will also have to do with their relative strength with in the community).

For example: the 3 peices of driftwood arranged in the middle of my 125. gal. makes for small openings ----and the small female auratus has claimed this area.

A large flat rock leaned on a corner (and secured!), makes for a very large, high and roomy cave; good in and out access with 2 openings; and is protected from the rear as it is the corner of the tank ----- small wonder why my C.A. cichlids prefer this over anything else.

What I have always found is that mbuna actually spend very little time in the caves, themselves. They are out and about. Usually the only time they go into the caves is to chase somebody out of their calimed cave area, or to sleep at night.


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## toume (Oct 7, 2010)

Hm... I think that may depend on the fish too--not just species, but personality.
One of my kenyis always hides, unless I come near the tank and it thinks food is near.
However, the other never hides unless being chased. :-?

I've thought about mixing Mbuna with non-Mbuna (if I were to get a much larger tank), and so decorating the tank definitely becomes an important factor! I just never want to risk the haps/peacocks because they're beautiful (except drab females) and expensive.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Bernie, I should clarify a bit.

You are definitely right, it isn't the type of material that makes the method work---it's the fact that there is a single object with space around it. Mbuna are faster and more agile than most CA's. They can weave in and out of tight spaces quickly, which is why they usually choose the rocks.

Most CA's are more like tanks----big and powerful, but they aren't as agile as the mbuna. So the CA's usually will choose an area that gives them time to react to an intruder. I usually suggest the driftwood instead of a large rock...only because it's much less likely that a fishkeeper will be tempted to add "just a couple of more rocks," thus blurring the territorial boundaries.

By having very little open space and overcrowding the mbuna (the usual way of keeping them), the CA's are at more of a disadvantage---it could still work, but your chances go down.

And in my experience, M. Chipokae is usually more aggressive...not just because of the size. But you are right, all cichlids are individuals...I once had a WC Cobue Reef Aulonocara peacock that dominated almost half of an Mbuna tank filled with "aggressive" species. So you never know.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Old saying fits: "Not the size of the fish in the fight but the size of the fight in the fish"???


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## zeh (Apr 26, 2010)

Well, I had to separate the convicts of Mbunas otherwise they would be killed. I put them in a smaller aquarium there are some days ago and today I saw hundreds of fries, as the tank is small I took off the couple and put the convicts in a community tank I have.

Now I have some doubts:

Can I feed kittens with infusions until when?

the couple will kill the fish of the community?

Thanks


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## zeh (Apr 26, 2010)

Well, I had to separate the convicts of Mbunas otherwise they would be killed. I put them in a smaller aquarium there are some days ago and today I saw hundreds of fries, as the tank is small I took off the couple and put the convicts in a community tank I have.

Now I have some doubts:

Can I feed kittens with infusions until when?

the couple will kill the fish of the community?

Thanks


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## marinerm10 (Feb 2, 2010)

African Cichlids are built like little torpedos and are masters of exploiting chaos. Like Oldcatfish said, this happened in my tank a while ago, when I was keeping American and African together, the Americans in theory should be the tougher species - and in theory they are, bigger, stronger etc. But in confined spaces they cannot cope with the agile, torpedo shaped African Cichlids. I saw a Frontosa in a store not long ago with an eye missing, he was huge like 14 - 15 inch. I know he is not American but - has a similar size and maybe lacks fast paced movement. He had it taken out by an eye-biter. Generally i nthe aquarium it is not a good idea unless you have an extremely passive American.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

marinerm10 said:


> African Cichlids are built like little torpedos and are masters of exploiting chaos. Like Oldcatfish said, this happened in my tank a while ago, when I was keeping American and African together, the Americans in theory should be the tougher species - and in theory they are, bigger, stronger etc. But in confined spaces they cannot cope with the agile, torpedo shaped African Cichlids. I saw a Frontosa in a store not long ago with an eye missing, he was huge like 14 - 15 inch. I know he is not American but - has a similar size and maybe lacks fast paced movement. He had it taken out by an eye-biter. Generally i nthe aquarium it is not a good idea unless you have an extremely passive American.


The practice shapes the theory; not the other way around. For over 3 decades, it's been general practice for me to have both in the same tank. That the two cannot be mixed is somebody else's theory and IMO, largely a myth.

There is absolutely nothing special about coming from lake Malawi. No real difference mixing west africans with C.A. or mixing rift lake cichlids with C.A. It's still a mix dependant on particular species chosen, TANK SIZE, and a host of other variables, just like any other cichlid community tank. And it's not a question of breeding strategies or requirements ----Ex. I'm sure it's usually a lot easier to have success housing Oreochromis mosambicus (a Tilapine mouthbrooder) with C.A. then housing Tilapia buttikofferii (sustrate spawner)with C.A. That is definately my experience, anyways.

Long term, a lot of C.A. are often really not that compatible, especially male C.A. in smaller tanks (6 ft. and less). I think, often, people would have more success with some kind of mix, then stocking very similar types of fishes that eventually end up as super competitive rivals. Of course when a mix doesn't work, mixing in general gets blamed, not tank size, the species chosen or the variety of other factors involved.

Your example of a frontosa and malawi eye-biter are 2 africans that, maybe, should not be kept together(?)----- or they were being housed in too small of a tank! A malawi eye-biter might be too aggressive for a frontosa (?). If so, probably would have worked a lot better housing the frontosa with angelfish, rainbow cichlid or even oscars :lol:

Mbuna are very agile, yes. But so are convicts and salvinis. When they grow up together, they learn how to defend from one another. The advantage in fighting style and skill is not all African, that's for sure. Ex. My male salvini and female auratus are probably very similar age (auratus was purchased so I can't know age of auratus for certain) and were similar body weight for quite some time. They were competitors for a number of months and had many scraps. Innitially the sal tried to fight it mbuna style --- they went around and around in circles with the salvini always getting bitten in the tail. But he learned to turn his body to always face it. He got some shots in, and now the auratus always swims away when he comes by. All the mbuna have to eat 'humble pie' when he comes around, though he has no special interest in any one mbuna, and generally, little interest in their affairs. Another Example, I remember very well from over 6-7 yrs. back. Had male salvini switch off between 2 females in 180 gal. (actually just like my male is doing now in 125 gal.). Female salvini had, had free swimming fry for a week or two. Once she lost the fry, the female sal was chased to other side of tank by the male sal, in favour of the other female. As she was going to the other side of the tank, a large male red zebra (F2 Metraiclima callinois) wound up and suckered her. She answered right back. Then there was another exchange of blows. Then the Zebra actually missed the third time, and she got the final shot in. The exchange was breif and the male zebra never attempted to mess with the female sal again. Both were of similar weight, with the zebra being around 6" and the sal probably a little shorter. After this exchange, there was no visible marks on the sal's body but there were 2 sqaure chunks on the zebra with no scales remaining. If the mbuna was really the more agile, how come he missed on his third attempt to nail the female sal?


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

bernie comeau said:


> a large male red zebra (F2 Metraiclima callinois)


Oops, I meant Metriclima estherae, not M. callinois. Or should I say I assume it was M. estherae as the fish was purchased as a red zebra, with a known collection point. Started with an M or something, but don't remember what the particular collection point was. At the time, 7-8 years ago, I was not up on the different latin names for zebra cichlids, and was unaware at the time that all zebras were not all called Pseudotropheus zebra.

Anyways I chose 4 young males out of a large group at the LFS, but ended up keeping only the dominnant male out of this group. The large adults in this group were suposedely wild caught and I assume that mine were F2 because there was clearly 3 sizes amongst the group (and therefore only 3 generations?). Though I really shouldn't assume that, as my fish could be anything from F1 to F4, F5 or more.

Crabo is a new species for me since last February. Anyways, so far I haven't found crabo to be all that aggressive. Less so then my male red zebra ever was. IME, Red zebra was pretty similar to kenyi in aggression, and auratus, IME, is much more aggressive then any of these.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

I agree with Bernie to a large degree about being able to mix cichlids from different parts of the world----he's right, juvenile that are grown up together and tank size are large factors.

Also, I've mixed Frontosa with Dimidochromis Compressiceps (the Malawi Eye Biter) without any problems...in at least a 6 foot tank, most Malawi Haps aren't too bad with other fish--except rival males. And by the way, the "eye biter" label is more of a myth. I've seen more consistant eye biting behavior from the larger, more aggressive Botia loaches--if they aren't well fed.

But in my experience mbuna are definitely more agile, at least in a rocky environment. They just are able to weave in and out of the rocks better than the CA's that I've kept with them. But that only applies to a rocky environment. When I keep mbuna, I have a lot of rockwork in the tank, much more than most people. I also stock a bit less heavily than most....I do about 10-12 mbuna (depending on the species) per 50 gallons.


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