# HELP! Yellow Lab Holding and Releasing!!!!



## avonlady34473 (Jul 12, 2017)

Hi Ya'll,

I just joined this group, so thank you for having me. This is my first time keeping Cichlids and one of my Yellow Labs has been holding for about 3 weeks or so. A few days ago I put her into her own little 20 gallon tank so she wouldn't be bugged by the males in the larger tank and could have some peace and quiet to spit out her fry. She seems to be doing okay. I've been doing about 50% water changes every day or every other day since I've moved her in there, (so maybe she's been in there about 4 or 5 days now). Anyways, she hadn't released that I knew of as of last night, so I decided to do another water change and clean up all the debris on the bottom of the tank. I wanted her to have everything pristine to release her fry.

As I was siphoning the bottom last night, being very careful not to suck up anything that looked like a little fish, I found one swimming around. OMG! I am soooo excited! I immediately pulled out the siphon and used a flashlight to look for more. I'm not sure if the other one I found in there was actually the "other" one or the same one. Anyways, as I was watching in joy, little miss momma started to chase the fish around in a jerky crazy manner. I'm not sure if she was trying to eat it or just worried about its protection and trying to get her back in her mouth for safety with the others. I've heard many stories and don't know what to believe at this point.

Anyways, it looks like she is still holding more and I did find the little one later that night swimming around behind some of the decor in there. But I'm trying to figure out when I should be getting momma out of there so she doesn't eat her fry. She can't be removed now as I know she is still holding more. But what steps can I take to ensure she doesn't eat them once they are all out of her mouth?

She is starting to get that sunken belly look too so I don't want to just let her spit them out and then put her right back into the tank. Because one of the males will not leave her alone in there and I don't think she is in any condition to be holding again that soon so I want to fatten her up a bit before I put her back. In the same time I would rather not fatten her up with her own babies. I have one of those ChEAPY Net breeder things installed in the tank and ready to go, but not sure if I should put the babies in there or Momma. I've also heard that some Cichlids can chew through the net to get to whatever is in there.

I would strip her, but honestly, I am so afraid to do so as 1 - I don't want to hurt her and 2 - I don't want to hurt myself on their fins. Plus even after watching all the videos out there on doing it, I'm not sure I know what I'm doing enough not to stress her and ME out. In the future I may just let her spit in the tank and let nature take it's course. But I just wanted the experience of getting baby fry out of this first batch. Any suggestions??????


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Welcome to the forum! The only sure way to maximize the amount of fry that survives is to strip her. She will start eating the fry pretty soon after releasing them, couple of days max... Are you using any kind of filtration in your holding tank?


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## avonlady34473 (Jul 12, 2017)

Yes I have a MarineLand Penguin 100 HOB filter. I put some pantyhose over the intake so the fry wouldn't be sucked up in it. If she is still holding though, would she still eat her fry that have been released?


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

That's good, just wasn't sure why you were doing water changes so often. Your female should be okay to put back in the main tank. Some of my female peacocks seem like they're constantly holding but they do fine. How many females do you currently have? But no, if she's still holding some then she won't eat the ones that are out. They're obviously ready to be released though.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

The female should be okay to put back in the main tank after she spits out the rest or you strip her, I had to clarify, but was referring to your previous concern about her being fit to go back to the display tank.


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## avonlady34473 (Jul 12, 2017)

The reason for the water changes so often is because I was in the middle of cycling the new tank she was put in. So, my ammonia levels are staying at 0.25 or less but when the nitrites get to about 0.50 that's when I do a water change. In the main tank I started with what I was told was two males. They ended up being a female and a male. The male wouldn't leave the female alone (the currently holding momma). So I went to a more reputable fish store and bought 3 more females and 1 acei and 1 maingano (not sure of the sexes of either of those). When I got home, I realized my male was trying to lip lock one of the so-called males in the bag while I was acclimating them to their new tank. Lo and Behold one of these three was confirmed as a male! GRRRR. So now in the main tank I have 2 males and 2 females plus Betty (once she goes back in there). I know they are ready to be released but I can't bring myself to strip her. I know I'm taking my chances that she won't eat them if I don't strip her but I'm petrified of doing it. She's actually the smallest female I have and I really can't see any more fry in her mouth, but she still has the bulge under her "chin" area whatever that is called. But she also never lets me get close enough to the tank to check it out either and she never opens her mouth wide enough for me to peek inside and see anything. I would like to keep at least a few fry if possible and grow them out to add to the larger tank too. That's why I was thinking of maybe using this net breeder box thing to put either her or the fry in once she's fully spit out all of them. I'm a bit scared to put her back in the main tank right now because she still seems to be holding and I don't want to kill her either if she should get automatically holding again once she goes back. I have heard it's a good idea to keep her out of the main tank for a week or so until she gets her strength back and starts eating good again.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Can you take established filter media from the old tank to speed up cycling? You should probably go ahead and try to scoop up the fry that are out and put them in the breeder box just in case. Then you can safely keep her in there with them. I see you're from Ocala, I used to work with a guy who was born and raised there.


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## avonlady34473 (Jul 12, 2017)

Unfortunately my other filter is a MarineLand 350 so the cartridges are different. However, I do have some Seachim Matrix in the established tank. Those are big rock looking things, should I just take a few out of that bag and put it in the smaller tank's filter? I also added some of the bacteria from the filter media into the tank water of the smaller tank and a couple of the decorations as well as a mesh bag filled with the other tanks gravel. I've only been in Ocala for about 4 years myself. I'm originally from Michigan.

So far I am only finding one small fry but I'll try to scoop that one up and continue to scoop more when I see them. Thank you so much for your information!


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Well it sounds like you've pretty much done a lot of what I would have done lol. But yes if you're using matrix in the other tank you could put some in the filter. By the way, matrix or denitrate works a heck of a lot better in a reactor with really slow flow, I've been using it with great success on my 180 gallon tank.


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## avonlady34473 (Jul 12, 2017)

So far I have found 4 fry and put 3 of them in the breeder net! The 4th one I accidently think I killed when I was moving stuff around to find him... the little plant decor landing on him . Watching momma closely now. She doesn't seem as full in the mouth anymore and used to have like a blackish mark under her chin and that's gone too. So maybe she's almost done spitting. I threw some flakes in to see if she would eat, but still not yet.

By the way, I crushed up flake food and put it in the net for the little ones. Should I be doing something else? Don't want my little ones to die of starvation???


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Oh no sorry to hear that. You're doing the right thing though, I've had fry survive behind my tank background for weeks before I found them swimming back there. So trust me they're a lot more resilient than you would think lol. Crushing flake food is a great way to feed them.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would not keep the fry in a breeder net, I would cycle a separate tank for them.

If the breeder net is in the main tank...even in the net the adults will kill them overnight.

If it is in a separate fry tank, you can just release them.


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## avonlady34473 (Jul 12, 2017)

Hi DJRansome,

The breeder net is (WAS) in a smaller tank with the female holding. I got a plastic one the other day because they all got out of the net. I couldn't catch the fry but caught the mom and put her in there. I thought it was at least the best option for the time being. That way when she spits more out they would go in the safe place under her. However, the little stinker got out as this one didn't have a lid on it. GRRRR!!!

I'm so confused! I'm not sure what to do at this point. I do not want a tank FULL of fry but would like to try to raise a few in this smaller tank. Yet, I can't tell if Mom is still holding. She's still not eating but I don't want to turn my head and one day all the babies are gone either. I'm half tempted at this time to say to heck with it and move her back into the main tank and if she still has more and spits in the main tank then it's survival of the fittest for them. But I was trying to fatten her up a bit before she goes back in as it seems like she is the only female that the males want to mate with. Anyone got any other suggestions on what to do, I'm still too afraid to try to strip her as I don't want either of us stressed out from it.


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## Old Newbie (Feb 18, 2017)

I would just put her back with the rest; she is not going to breed again until she has fattened herself up a bit. She will not be able to produce eggs otherwise. Or, man up and strip her of the eggs she may be holding; it is not going to harm her and you will build confidence having done it. It's up to you!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If the fry are in a separate tank in a breeder box, release them from the breeder box and into the small tank.

If the fry spit the other day are gone, I agree, you can leave the mom in the maternity tank and wait, or strip her.

I just would not use the breeder box.


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## avonlady34473 (Jul 12, 2017)

OMG! I did it!!! I manned up as the OP suggested and held her and opened her mouth with a small paper clip. I didn't get any fish to come out so I looked inside and there were none in there. In fact then I took a closer look at her and her sunken belly was gone too. I put her back in the main tank and fed all the fish. SHE ATE!!!! OMG Thank you all for your advice!

After she was out of the small tank, the fry started swimming around more too. It looks like I may actually about 6 or 7 in there. Now comes the question, why are these ones looking so small. I have been watching video after video and even the ones with their yolk sac still visible appear larger than these ones in my tank and I see no yolk sacs on them. Could it just be because momma was so small to begin with? Anything I can do to help them get a good start and grow quicker so I don't need basically a magnifying glass to see them? They look like they are eating some of the small powdered flakes so that's a good sign at least. How long does it take before they become more yellow and active in the tank?


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## Aaron S (Apr 4, 2015)

I find it really fun to strip the fry, I am glad you got the opportunity to do so. If you only found 6 or 7, then she likely ate some of them. Even my small first time mothers normally get around 20 fry; I stripped a star sapphire yesterday and she had 40. I think the size of the fry does depend on the size of the mother somewhat but they will be really small. You should see noticeable growth within a few weeks.


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## avonlady34473 (Jul 12, 2017)

I was just so afraid of touching another fish. When I was a kid I used to go fishing with my parents. They would make me take the fish I caught off the hook and every time I did, the top fin would slice my palm open. So I guess I was just thinking that even these little fish would do the same. But their actually pretty soft to touch. Yeah, I agree, she either ate some in the small tank, or spit in the big tank before I removed her and then who knows who ate them. Now that i feel better stripping I'll probably only let females hold for a couple weeks. I'm still unsure about tumbling the eggs so I'd rather have most of their yolk consumed before I strip. What would be a good time frame to strip females in that case? Is the 14 days good or could I go a little earlier or later?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I actually never strip females...I'm content to wait for them to spit. Whether you are removing the female or stripping I like day 18.

You need a cycled tank for the fry anyway (20G Long is good, don't forget they have to grow up before you can sell them or put them in the main tank) so I give the holding female the tank on day 18 and remove her the day after she spits.


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## avonlady34473 (Jul 12, 2017)

Thanks DJR,

Now, if I get another holding female, do you think it would be okay to put that one in the same tank with the fry? So far, so good as no other females seem to be holding yet. I also have 1 acei and 1 maingano in the tank besides the 6 yellow labs and I'm not sure of the sexes of the acei or the maingano but I'm hoping there will be no cross breeding going on. I really like the other two fish too so I may get a colony of each going in there as well. Just need to hold off until I can get an even bigger tank though I think. I am not really sure if I want to go into breeding, but if it happens it happens. I will do my best and go from there.

Or would you recommend getting another small tank for holding females if the time comes when I decided I"m going to go into this further. I may also let the others release in the tank if they start holding just because I don't have the space for a whole lot more cichlids. I'm hoping to get at least a couple more females out of this batch to eventually add into the tank to make a little less stress for the girls when the boys are in the mood. I was going to buy a couple more females, but now that I have fry I thought I'd just play it out and see where the chips fall.

Thank you all once again for all the advice. I'm a newbie when it comes to cichlids. Had a tropical tank years ago but I guess you could say I'm still a newbie fishkeeper as a whole.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would not put a holding female with fry. But if you already have a tank full of fry (average number is 20) then you probably don't want to raise another batch until the first batch is grown up.

If you have any single males in the tank, you could certainly have cross breeding going on...I would wait to save fry until the extra fish are removed.

Or when you have a 75G tank (48x18) then you could get 1m:4f yellow labs, 1m:7f maingano and 1m:4f acei to minimize the crossbreeding risk, then start saving fry after that.


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## avonlady34473 (Jul 12, 2017)

Update: I did end up trying to strip her. She didn't have any more fry in her mouth. I put her back in the big tank and she seems to be eating well now too. So excited as the fry are starting to get more yellow color and bigger. I can actually see them better now LOL I think I have either 6 or 7 fry now. So far I've only lost two. So I think maybe she may have started releasing in the big tank before I brought her over to the other tank. The other good news is in the process I believe my small tank has now fully cycled as well. And who knows maybe one day in a few weeks or months, I might look into the big tank and see a fry appear who might have been able to hide through it all. But my hopes is that all these 6 or 7 can grow out nicely in the 20 gallon and later be added into the big tank with Mom and Dad.

Thanks again for everyone's input. I'm now no longer afraid to strip a holding cichlid!


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