# Please Help with my sick cichlids in my 180g tank.



## snoskiur (Nov 10, 2010)

Hello all,

This is my first post in this forum, but unfortunately it's not a happy one this time. Can anyone identify what is wrong with my fish below and let me know what I should do? I have a 180 gallon cichlid tank with a mix of mostly Malawi cichlids, a few Tanganyikans, catfish and loaches. I've had a 75 gallon cichlid tank for years and just a couple months ago I upgraded to a 180 gallon, which came with some of these nice fish. The tank has been very healthy so far. I do about a 25% water change every week and only add Prime and salt to the water. My ammonia and nitrites are zero and my nitrates stay about 10-20 ppm for the most part. Ph is 7.4 and temp is always 78 degrees. The other fish look healthy and I have both Convict and Calvus fry, so I assume the water quality is good. The only recent change I've made is that I removed the mother Calvus and her fry and put them in a 10 gallon tank that sits side--by-side with the display tank and shares the same water with a pump/siphon setup. I don't have a quarantine tank and don't know how to treat this in the tank with the other fish.

Here are some photos:

1: Placidochromis Milomo
Skin from eyes forward, top to bottom of head, is damaged and almost looks like a burn or something, plus he has a hole in is right fin that looks funny and other fish have the same type of hole.


















2. Don't know what fish this is
The bottom fin has the odd inflamed hole and the top of his tail fin looks infected.










3. Protomelas Insignis or Protomelas Spilonotus Tanzania, not sure
The top rear of his dorsal fin is inflamed and red, which it's not usual, and his tail is starting to get it, too.


















4. Blue Cobalt
Bottom lip area is red and inflamed.


















5. Not sure what type of fish this is
Similar fin inflammation along bottom of dorsal fin.










Thanks for any advice anyone can give!

Thanks
Todd


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'd say at least part of the problem is aggression. The fish in the last two pics are lurking under the surface which is a symptom of a victim fish.

What is the complete stocking list? Some of the fish you have named may not be ideal in the same tank together.


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## snoskiur (Nov 10, 2010)

Thanks for the reply. So far, though, I haven't had any aggression issues. And, if it is aggression, don't a lot of the spots look like something other than injury? I will post some of the names that I THINK are in the tank. I'm not that up on fishes' proper names. I will say that my Dophin now is showing signs of the same thing on his tail and top fin (see below).

Here is a list of what I think I have just from some sites I've looked at:
Placidochromis milomo
aplochromis moorii Blue Dolphin 
Aulonocara Dragons blood
Protomelas taeniolatus Red Empress
Yellow labidochromis
Metriaclima callainos blue cobalt
cyphotilapia frontosa
Altolamprologus calvus
Synodontis multipunctatus Catfish
protomelas insignis
Protomelas Spilonotus Tanzania
Nimbochromis fuscotaeniatus
Bristle nose pleco
3 Rubber nose pleco
2 Clown Loaches
5 tanganikan catfish
Two Eartheaters
Aulonocara baenschi Sunshine Peacock
Rocio octofasciata Jack Dempsey










Thanks for anymore input you can offer.


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## snoskiur (Nov 10, 2010)

Just a little additional to my last reply. The fish that you see at the top just happened to be there when I took the photos. They have not been hanging at the top or acting any differently, so far.

Thanks.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The face problem does not look like an injury. The fins could be an injury originally that became infected or fungused (is anything fuzzy?). The redness is also a symptom...septicemia? Those issues I don't have much experience with and will leave for other member's responses.

The cobalt's lips look like aggression. And I've never had a mbuna go to the top for a picture...only for food. Or the lurking (occasional) fish. The vertical posture is also an indicator. Aggression, I DO have experience with, LOL.

So first cure the face/fin problems. Then look for the original cause. Hope it all comes out well. :thumb:


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## snoskiur (Nov 10, 2010)

Thanks for the input. I didn't even think about this until just now, but I had a new fish about a week or two ago that was fine when I got it in the tank, and it got picked on (I think). After a few days, he had some tattered fins and I put him in a small breeder cage in the tank to protect him. Then, I noticed that his tail just basically fell off and then his mouth got swollen and puffy with cottony looking stuff around it. I put him in a 10 gallon tank with some "Jungle" brand infection medicine and he died a couple days later.

I don't know if this could be the same thing... it looks different, but I just remembered it.

In my situation NOW, the only fish that has some fuzz is the one with the messed up face. His upper face has some of the cottony type fuzz on it.

The Cobalt has been staying at the bottom of the tank and in the middle most of the time.

You say to first resolve the face/fin problems. Any suggestions on how to do that?

Thanks!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The problem is I don't know how to diagnose the face/fin problems. Bacterial is one med, and fungus is another med. Since tomorrow is Christmas Eve and you may not be able to get meds after tomorrow, I would probably get some Maracyn and Maracyn-2 to have on hand. That should work for bacterial issues. You can use them simultaneously.

Meanwhile, hopefully a member experienced with that face issue and/or fungal infections will post and rule in-or-out fungus.

Best I can do.


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## snoskiur (Nov 10, 2010)

Thanks for answering that. I've seen that medication mentioned a lot. I'll probably go get some tomorrow until someone can provide some help!

Thanks!


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## Plasmaball (Feb 6, 2008)

no, this is a fungus and will eat your fish.
you need a seachem product:
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product ... Guard.html

This will stave off whatever this is. Its a hard one to kill off.

its been going around the chain stores....if that doesnt work there is a place in mass called uncle teds..he said he had something that would fix it...


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## snoskiur (Nov 10, 2010)

Do you know what type of fungus it may be or what causes it?


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## Plasmaball (Feb 6, 2008)

no. I just know it will eat your fish basically. 
They can last a couple weeks, and then you come look and one day they are dead.

get that polygard stuff at least, you should see it retreat back.

btw that M-1 and M-2 wont do jack to this.


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## snoskiur (Nov 10, 2010)

Where can I buy Polyguard. I"m familiar with Seachem products and never saw that one.


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## snoskiur (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, this morning it's gotten worse... Each of the spots on each fish has become bigger and one is nearly dead.

Any other advice would be great!


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## snoskiur (Nov 10, 2010)

The cobalt Is dead now...


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## Plasmaball (Feb 6, 2008)

sorry dude , i dont know where to get it in your area, but i would prepare yourself to loose more...
Oh and dont buy any fish from a petco or petsmart..


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

I'm just headed out for the holiday so I only skimmed your post but what it sounds like to me is Columnaris which is often referred to as mouth fungus HOWEVER it is not a fungus it is a bacterial disease caused by a bacteria that normally resides in your tank harmlessly until the fish comes under some kind of stress and then it can kill fish fast, a few hours, or slow, a week.

Members have had success using maracyn and maracyn-two on Columnaris. Here are some other antibiotic options for you: kanamycin, Furan 2. 
Before you treat: 
do a partial water change of 30-40% using the prime dechlorinator. Siphon the gravel. Add aquarium salt, (sodium chloride ) at the rate of 1 tablespoon per five gallons. Dissolve it first and add it gradually.Increase water movement if you can by adding a jet. Adding the salt and increasing water movement will help prevent the bacteria from adhering to the fish's skin--it's not a cure on its own but it will help. 
Reduce temp to 76--this slows the growth of this bacteria
Feed fish sparingly until the tank stabilizes.

Some members have reported success against columnaris by doing a salt _dip_, (different than just adding salt). For directions on how to do this refer to this article:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/c ... isease.php
(and yes, he's not crazy about using antibiotics)

Sorry for the loss of your fish. Once this bacteria gets going it can be hard to stop but it's definitely stop-able and while you may or may not lose more fish what frequently happens is that the tank stabilizes and the remaining fish come through just fine. It is possible to lose an entire tank to this so taking action asap is important. If nothing else do the extra water change, temp reduction and addition of the salt. And really siphon the gravel well.

Best of luck in turning things around. 

Robin


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## snoskiur (Nov 10, 2010)

Robin, I think you may be right. I looked up some stuff on Columnaris and it seems pretty close to what I have. I had already dosed with Pimafix and Melafix and added some extra salt, but after reading your post, I added even more salt. I'll re-evaluate and re-read this tomorrow when Santa is a little more sober...

THANKS! Wish me luck!

Todd


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## snoskiur (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, I'm still dosing every day with Pimafix and Melafix, and I started Triple Sulfa yesterday. Do you think that is the right course? I've lowered the temp to 74 and added salt, too. Seems like it's slowed the spread, but hard to see any improvement yet. I've already lost four really nice, large fish... very frustrating.


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## snoskiur (Nov 10, 2010)

Hello. I have stopped the Columnaris, I think. I lost about seven nice fish, but I think I probably saved the rest of the tank from dying off. I eventually removed four of my nicer fish that hadn't died to a 40 gallon hospital tank, added a tablespoon of salt per five gallons, ran a five-day course of Marcyn 2, Pimafix and Melafix, plus fed Jungle Food with Antibiotic in it. Seems that the disease stopped spreading and the fish are doing ok, but I have fish damage that I don't know how to repair or get to heal. I have one very large Peacock that completely lost his talk and much of his dorsal fin, and the tail and dorsal area is left with nothing but raw meat, it seems. I also have two other fish that have less damage, but still have raw areas. They have been raw for a couple weeks and don't seem to be healing over. I've used Stress Coat, Prime and salt, hoping to speed the process... If anyone has any input, I'd appreciate it. I'd like to get them back in my display tank, but I'm scared to yet.

Here are some photos:


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

My experience was the meds would heal the spots so the fish looked perfect, but then as soon as the meds were stopped, the spots came back. Sorry, I don't know how to make them go away permanently. I treated over many months and used several meds, some with several courses of treatment without success.

Here is what I tried in case it helps others: 
Maracyn and Maracyn2 simultaneously. This worked best.
Kanamycin
Triple Sulfa


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## snoskiur (Nov 10, 2010)

Does it look to you like it's still an active infection or fungus? The actual disease or bacteria that was there seems to be gone, leaving only the raw meat to heal. I don't see any more spreading on the fish or between fish, and the fish are eating and acting healthy again. You think I should continue with those treatments?

Thanks.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Wow, incredibly sad pictures.
Sorry I don't have any experience dealing with columnaris (hopefully I never will), however, I have seen Melafix referenced plenty of times for treating damaged fish. I'm not sure if there's something better for damage that severe.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

How many days has it been since the progress of the disease stopped? And since then the fish have gotten no better and no worse?

It seemed to me what was happening with my fish was the infection had spread throughout the fish, like internal organs, etc.. The meds could heal the outside temporarily, but if I stuck with the dosage limits and limits on the # of times you could repeat a course of treatment, it always came back within a few weeks. As if I could not get the disease completely eradicated.

That is not what is happening to you, right? It has been a few weeks?

In the absence of disease, damage to flesh/fins has always shown visible improvement in a few days for me and completely healed within a month. I have not experienced a "limbo" situation.


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

Plasmaball said:


> no. I just know it will eat your fish basically.
> They can last a couple weeks, and then you come look and one day they are dead.
> 
> get that polygard stuff at least, you should see it retreat back.
> ...


I am beginning to also believe that M1 and M2 will not work. I have been using it for nearly the same symptoms with no success.


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

jchild40 said:


> Plasmaball said:
> 
> 
> > no. I just know it will eat your fish basically.
> ...


But to be clear, I've used it before WITH success...


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## snoskiur (Nov 10, 2010)

Thanks for the replies. Here's a run down of what's happened. The Columnaris (took a week or more to find out that's what it was) was obviously a BAD situation - the worse I've had in my fish keeping history, by far. I believe it started by a couple of my larger fish fighting one night. I learned this after putting the pieces together and reading up on things that Columnaris is most likely to occur in stressed fish, poor water conditions and open sores. Considering that my water was, IMHO, near perfect, and my most aggressive fish had the signs in and around his mouth, I assumed it was aggression and stress. I had about four or five fish that had spots that were spreading over each fish very quickly. I initially started by using a full course of Pimafix and Melafix for a week, but I still lost a several nice fish even though the spread seemed to slow some. After spending over a hundred bucks to medicate the 180 gallon tank, I got a 40 breeder tank and put the affected fish in there and used Maracyn 2 for five days along with Pimafix and Melafix, plus salt. Within a day or two, the spreading stopped and the fungus/bacterial areas seemed to get better, leaving them with no tail, fin, or whatever the parts were, but just raw meat. Seems it's been sorta stuck there for over a week now. The fish are eating fine and looking healthy, otherwise, but not healing. The one with the missing tail is, by far, the worse.

Does that explain it better?


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## Nina_b (Jan 3, 2011)

i haven't ever seen or heard of a tail growing back after it has been destroyed up to the flesh. I hope I am wrong, and people will chime in with other opinions. Best you can do is keep the water perfect, and perhaps try gently upping their metabolism to speed up healing (warmer water, small regular meals - like a grow out tank)?
I sincerely hope your fish pull through. Such a sad story


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## snoskiur (Nov 10, 2010)

Yeah, it's sad... The poor fish without a tail has a hard time keeping himself upright. He's eating and has good color, though, so I'm hopeful...


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If nothing at all is growing back on any of the fish, I'd suspect there is still an illness of some kind going on. You can't see the tiniest little edge of clear regrowth on one of them with a portion of fin remaining?

Fins completely gone will regrow. But if the underlying flesh is gone as well, that is when the fin may not regrow.


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## snoskiur (Nov 10, 2010)

That's what I think is happening... I think the flesh is gone mostly, too. But, even if it is, it seems that the tail and his dorsal area would at least heal over, right? I changed the water yesterday and added salt again after noticing the hospital tank had high ammonia... we'll test the water again today.


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## Nina_b (Jan 3, 2011)

any news? Any better/worse?


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## snoskiur (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, there may be some slight improvement, but it's hard to tell. The Peacock hasn't started to grow any tail or dorsal fin back yet, and his back end still seems to want to float, so he's constantly fighting that, bu the raw area may be getting slightly smaller. Hard to tell. I have a second fish that seems to have a bit of fin coming back slowly. I have them both in a 40 gallon tank and am battling really high ammonia unit, so I'm keeping the ph low to battle that too. Any other suggestions?


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## Nina_b (Jan 3, 2011)

lots of water changes with the new water carefully matched to be the same? Also some cycle to help break the ammonia down?

Here's me holding thumbs that things keep getting better.


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## snoskiur (Nov 10, 2010)

Thanks... What are you calling cycle? Are you talking about just taking time to cycle the tank, or are you talking about a product? I've been using Stability by Seachem.


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## snoskiur (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, it looks like my 8" Peacock Cichlid's wounds are starting to heal over. He STILL has absolutely no tail and is missing much of his dorsal fin. Poor thing is "swimming" on his side and, often, in circles because he has no control without the fins. He's still eating and color is good. It's been over a month since this all started.

Looking for input on this... Should I continue to leave him in the hospital tank, alone, and see if any fins ever go back, or should I euthanize him? I just don't know how long to give it. I obviously can't put him back int the DT yet because he couldn't defend himself. Any ideas?


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## snoskiur (Nov 10, 2010)

Any thoughts?


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## djoverdose (Jan 7, 2011)

Hi... may i ask whats your filtration on your 180 gal?

i guess the main cause is aggression. i remember before, before i started with my all male peacock/hap tanks, i had some mbunas in the tank. every time i introduce a new peacock the following day it will have torn fns and missing scales. in to some extent after adding a new peacock 3 days after its dead due to the damage it had recieved.

also the peacocks and haps are thinner and grows slower compared to the mbuna. this is because they are more aggressive in nature and such a pig when it comes to feeding time...

so what i did was i removed all my mbuna from the tank. now most of my peacocks are more healthier than before though there still some aggression so the best thing to do is to add some more peacock/haps. the more the merrier...

going back with my guess.... since i think it is aggression related, if your filtration cant coupe up with your bioload, expect to have some outbreaks here and there. specially if theres an injury.

the pictures that you posted seems to be secondary infections and most probably are fungus or bacteria.

if i where in your place heres the things i would do.

1. will check my filtration system. will do some maintenance work on them. replace all my mechanical filteration, leave my bio media alone.

2. will check my stocking list. since yours are mix. mix in away you have tangs and malawi, carnivore and herbivores, it will be difficult to keep them all healthy because they have different diets and behavior.

3. will check my water parameters if i have 0,0,40(amonia,nitrite,nitrate)

4. will make bi weekly 25% water change instead of 1x/week. until the conditions improve.

5. will bump the temp to atleast 28-30 deg just to kill off any parasite or fungus and speed up the metabolism of the fish. will add 1 tablespoon of salt/10gallon for prophylaxis.

6.observe them and will limit their feeding as not to pollute the water too much. more feeding=more poop=ammonia

7. if you can buy melafix and pimafix by API, buy atleast two large bottles since you need to dose the whole tank. it is an all natural med and is very effective against fungus and body injuries.

Lastly maintain good water quality and select your stocks properly. i learned this the hard way.


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