# What are my Synspilum doing?



## koko (Nov 29, 2015)

Can someone please help me....
It looks as though two of them are ganging up on the other one. I could be wrong but I just wanted some advice from other people.
Two of them are doing some kissing thing and chasing the other one around the tank.
What are they doing?


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## Fish Jerk (Mar 9, 2016)

They are fighting over her and trying to get her in the mood.


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## koko (Nov 29, 2015)

Fish Jerk said:


> They are fighting over her and trying to get her in the mood.


Thanks...but how do you know it's a female?


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## koko (Nov 29, 2015)

Anyone else? Any ideas?


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Two have split the tank in half in terms of territories. They are defending there territories from their rival, in the middle of the tank. The third synspilum is with out territory and is being chased by the other two back and forth. Can't tell how bad the situation is by a few seconds clip, but if the territories are very rigid, the third one really has no where to go with out trespassing.
IME, syns were mild mannered towards other cichlids (at least in comparison to most other large CA) but had high conspecific aggression; they were very aggressive towards their own kind. 
Not sure I would bet on just 3 syns working out well in a tank. What size of tank is it, by the way?
As far as the sex, can't say I would be certain on sexing them. I would think the two threatening each are both males, just because of their nuachal humps. But large, old females may have nuachal humps and even have more of the appearance of a male then some younger males. If the third one is female, at least based on the few seconds clip, there is no indication the other two are ready or interested in pairing up.


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## koko (Nov 29, 2015)

BC in SK said:


> Two have split the tank in half in terms of territories. They are defending there territories from their rival, in the middle of the tank. The third synspilum is with out territory and is being chased by the other two back and forth. Can't tell how bad the situation is by a few seconds clip, but if the territories are very rigid, the third one really has no where to go with out trespassing.
> IME, syns were mild mannered towards other cichlids (at least in comparison to most other large CA) but had high conspecific aggression; they were very aggressive towards their own kind.
> Not sure I would bet on just 3 syns working out well in a tank. What size of tank is it, by the way?
> As far as the sex, can't say I would be certain on sexing them. I would think the two threatening each are both males, just because of their nuachal humps. But large, old females may have nuachal humps and even have more of the appearance of a male then some younger males. If the third one is female, at least based on the few seconds clip, there is no indication the other two are ready or interested in pairing up.


Thank you so much for that info! I did have 4 originally until one died the other day for unknown circumstances


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## koko (Nov 29, 2015)

Thank you so much for that info! I did have 4 originally until one died the other day for unknown circumstances


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## smitty (May 7, 2004)

You have 2 males and a female. They both want her and something will have to give. They will fight for her until one surrenders or until 1 is killed. So you may have to use a divider or closely monitor the tank. But keep in mind it does not take long for a fish to kill another fish in a closed environment


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## koko (Nov 29, 2015)

smitty said:


> You have 2 males and a female. They both want her and something will have to give. They will fight for her until one surrenders or until 1 is killed. So you may have to use a divider or closely monitor the tank. But keep in mind it does not take long for a fish to kill another fish in a closed environment


Thanks for that! So the 2 that are doing that weird kissing thing are the ones I need to seperate? Or keep them together and separate the other one?


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## smitty (May 7, 2004)

Well for thew look of the short video i am not sure which male she is trying to be with. You really need to spend and hour studying the behavior of all 3. She will let you know which one she wants to mate with. Because if the male rejects her he could very well seriously injure or kill her too.


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## Fish Jerk (Mar 9, 2016)

koko said:


> Fish Jerk said:
> 
> 
> > They are fighting over her and trying to get her in the mood.
> ...


The other two have giant head butting area and more developed fins.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

smitty said:


> Well for thew look of the short video i am not sure which male she is trying to be with.


Based on the video, not too sure where the idea that one fish is trying to pair up with another even comes from :-? The supposed female is being chased back and forth and attempts to show belly (it's subordinate status) as way to try and avoid the aggression. IF there is male and female in the tank, pairing up may eventually happen, though nothing in the video, IMO, is showing anything of this nature to be imminent. 
I'd grant that the 2 fish threatening each other are more likely males. But certainly some old females exceed the "male-look" of either of these 2, both in terms of the size of their nuchal hump and over all size and thickness. With out knowing the age of the fish, sort of difficult to be certain. If these are some what younger fish, I would expect a female to be smaller then the third subordinate syn. But it appears to be just as large as the other 2. A lack of nuchal hump does not guarantee it being female.....some males develop the hump early, some eventually in old age, while others never at all. I think it just as likely the third subordinate syn is a male rather then a female. Could be 2 males and a female or could be 3 males.......or even some chance of them being 3 females, though they would likely have to be older fish.
IME, the easy way to sex 100% is to observe the fishes genitals in the water over the course of a few weeks or months. That way, 100% certainty. IMO even better then the so called "venting". Looking at the fish's belly is a poor angle to distinguish a fish's genitals. I think it would take some real skill and experience to distinguish this way. Many people have gotten the sex wrong by so called "venting" and when pictures are posted on line, usually there is disagreement or most people are not sure either way :lol:


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## koko (Nov 29, 2015)

I've been recommended to take one out. How do I know which one to take out and how do I know if I've taken the right one out?


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## koko (Nov 29, 2015)

smitty said:


> You have 2 males and a female. They both want her and something will have to give. They will fight for her until one surrenders or until 1 is killed. So you may have to use a divider or closely monitor the tank. But keep in mind it does not take long for a fish to kill another fish in a closed environment


I am going to divide the tank but how do I know which one to separate from the others and how do I know that I have seperated the right one?


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## smitty (May 7, 2004)

Take the female out and see if the behavior between the 2 males subside. I understand what BC is saying but I have witnessed this exact same behavior and a day or so later I have found my female no longer being chased back and forth but actually staying with one of the males. It definitely happened with my Citrinellums.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

smitty said:


> I have witnessed this exact same behavior and a day or so later I have found my female no longer being chased back and forth but actually staying with one of the males. It definitely happened with my Citrinellums.


With 2 males owning territory plus a female in the tank.......chances are sooner, rather then later you'll get pairing and then spawning. Other then the act of claiming territory, it's not really pre-spawning behavior. 
I've had similar situations to the video clip many times. The fish getting chased between the 2 fish was another male; sometimes of the same species, other times another rival male of a different CA species.
As far as splitting the tank in half and threatening in the middle of the tank, it's not even exclusively a male thing. I've had female RD/midas and female salvini do the same thing. Even male and female angelfish have spent most of there day threatening in the middle of the tank for weeks on end.
Curious how you and Fish jerk are so certain on the sex of the subordinate syn. Might be a female, but I am still curious as to how you are sexing it.
I think sexing the fish with certainty would be the first step. 
Removing and/or separating the syns with a divider might be a solution or a first step. Though I am not sure how much room there really is to do this as a long term solution.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

I have a group of syns that i have had for years. They have bred multiple times. I agree with BC 100% on all his points. My first thought when watching the video was that fish 3 was a 3rd male. Also would like to know how u are sexing them. U really cant go by appearance, hump, or activity. U will need to see a vent down to def indicate a female


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## Fish Jerk (Mar 9, 2016)

BC in SK said:


> Curious how you and Fish jerk are so certain on the sex of the subordinate syn. Might be a female, but I am still curious as to how you are sexing it.


lol because it's amazingly obvious based on looks and behavior?

It's true males can look female and vice versa just like with humans, but usually males look male and females look female and you can tell at a glance. Hump, eyes, jaw size, fins, coloring, fat around egg area, behavior, bulk and muscle patterns all say the same thing.

And they are not really chasing her either, are they? That's rhetorical, because they are not chasing her. They are herding her and giving her love nips. If the third turns out to be male it will be slightly embarassing for me but more so for those two, who were also fooled :lol:

I doubt they will breed in that tank though. For breeding it would be best to have one pair or else a larger tank with a bigger group, which would have to be a giant tank for these guys obviously.

Also I don't like venting and should not really be necessary most of the time.


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## Fish Jerk (Mar 9, 2016)

For some fish like goldfish it's hard to tell but it's still possible most of the time once they have grown out a bit. Sometimes individuals are ambiguous even for species that have a lot of sexual dimorphism but this is not such a case. Looks very female, very much doubt it's not.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

Have u ever seen A tank with a group of full-grown synspillum. Obviously you have not because if you had you would know that at full adult size all the physical characteristics that you mentioned are the same. Being able to tell "at a glance" is nearly impossible. And when all else fails's venting is always pretty full proof. Trust me I sit in front of the 240 with full grown synspillum in it every weekend


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## Fish Jerk (Mar 9, 2016)

sumthinfishy said:


> Have u ever seen A tank with a group of full-grown synspillum. Obviously you have not because if you had you would know that at full adult size all the physical characteristics that you mentioned are the same. Being able to tell "at a glance" is nearly impossible. And when all else fails's venting is always pretty full proof.


Wrong on both counts.



sumthinfishy said:


> Trust me I sit in front of the 240 with full grown synspillum in it every weekend


That doesn't mean anything for a couple reasons.










First off, do you see a difference here? There's about a hundred differences. They are completely different in every way. When I pause the video I can them all in the video, too.

Whole body shape is completely different. Some people, can't notice a big difference. Many more, would not notice it in a short video. But I paused the video before I even posted here because I was checking out the coloring. So I probably watched much more closely than you did.

An overgrown female with a hump happens sometimes, a male that looks 100% female is very unlikely.

Secondly if you DO get puny males or males showing out with bad traits, that is one of the big signs you have bad stock that is too inbred or that they are mixed and you should not be breeding them.

If I got a breeding pair for a big cichlid I would source each fish separately and try to get them all tank bred with parents I could look at in person. Usually I get one first then if he's good enough to breed look for a mate.

If I have a dime for every guy who says it's impossible to sex fish then I would be pretty rich. Funny how I never turn out wrong. Only fish I had turning out some iffy offspring was a red zebra I was not 100% sure of the lineage of, later I figured out he must be accidentally part mixed with yellow lab and got rid of him.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

Just because your two look different doesnt mean they all do. Your female doesnt even look full grown. Arrogance and ignorance are a terrible combination. Unfortunately it is found all too often on this forum. If I had a dime for every time I read bad advice that you have given on this forum then I would be rich. I will let the op take all advice and make a decision. Good luck to the op.


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## Fish Jerk (Mar 9, 2016)

Well you can have whatever opinion you want to bro, I don't really give 2 figs for what your opinion is either way.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Fish Jerk said:


> lol because it's amazingly obvious based on looks and behavior?


Can't say I agree with anything Fish Jerk has posted in this thread, nor really anything he has posted in the couple weeks he has been on this forum.
Pretty vague way to be certain on the sex of synspilum.
No doubt it can be pretty obvious with some pairs, like the picture Fish jerk posted. Young undeveloped female beside the same age male often would be obvious; with a pair one is female and the other male. I have my doubts whether it is even his fish, as the pictures come from Russian and Greek sites. 
If I were there in person I could sex them reliably quite easily by looking at the fish's genitals in the water; can't see it at all from the video. Then if one is not too impatient, it can be confirmed 100% over the coarse of a few weeks or months. The female breeding tube is in a more dramatic cycle going from nothing protruding at all, to possibly becoming very large thick and blunt shortly before laying eggs. The male breeding tube always comes to a point at the end, and often stays very similar through out much of the year, only getting longer shortly before fertilizing eggs.
If I had to lean one way or another on the subordinate syn, I would guess male. Placed beside the female that fish jerk posted, it certainly "looks" male. Though I know better then to be certain on the sex of a synspilum based essentially on nuchal hump :lol:


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