# filtration question



## justinf67 (Jul 19, 2009)

I have a 55 gallon overstocked mbuna tank, with a diy wet/dry sump. the sump has quite a bit of biological filtration(pot scrubbers) and i use polyfill as a mech filter over the drip tray. tank is clean, but not as polished as id like. what can i do to better polish the water?

*** noticed with my setup, that the poo gets pushed by the spraybar over to the right side of the tank, but since my overflow is at the surface, I end up with spots of poo buildup in the right corner. what can i do get the bottom corner cleaner since the overflow doesnt seem to pick it up?


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

I personally think that using a sump that only collects water from the surface of the tank doesn't make sense... Sumps have the potential of being magnificent mechancial filters but so few use this aspect of their potential.

The ollowing is the overflow / intake design I plan to use on a a system I am building in the next month or so...


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## steelers fan (Jun 26, 2009)

id say your problem with the poo is a non-issue...thats perfect just put some decor in front of it to hide the unsightly poo and vacuum with water changes. having your poo collect in one place is great and makes cleanup easy. we all have problems with poo management and in the end your predicament is actually the solution


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## justinf67 (Jul 19, 2009)

thats kinda confusing looking. no skimmer box? the setup i have now is a eshopps 1000, with dual drains and 900 gph. it comes with one siphon tube, which goes in the skimmer box. i think its an 1 1/2.... now, what if I got a smaller j tube, added an extension so it goes to the bottom of the tank, and run the other end into either the skimmerbox, or overflow? would it stop if power went out to the pump?

steelersfan, its not collecting in one exact spot, but on the right side in general. i think if i had an intake tube underneath my skimmer box, near the substrate, it would pull most of the poo up and out of the tank....my worry if i do the long tube is if the power went out, im not sure how if it would stop suction...i may have to do a test tomorrow


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

> poo buildup in the right corner


There are plenty that would look at your problem as being more blessing than curse. You said most collects at a single point, ready for cleanup, as Steelers Fan mentioned. 
You have a number of options, none of them will work as well as leaving things as they are. But if you want to go down that road, checkbook in hand and phone number of a supply source for anti depressants: 
Modify your spray bar to one or more jets that would get the poop up, in suspension in the area of your overflow. This would be the cheapest, but most time consuming..vexing as well. 
Adding additional filtration, be it HOB, Magnum, or a canister directing the the output towards that "sweet spot" the poop collects and have the intake positioned where the bulk of it will get picked up. This way, you get to spend a quantity of $ and half drive yourself mad at the same time. Might aide in achieving the water polishing look you are after 
Add one, or more, powerheads and start the positioning game. You start the game by fretting over the gph. Once past that, you move on to style of head, simple submersible pump or propeller. Your in the "home stretch" now..the positioning. Might be a good time for that phone call. Be sure to place the anti depressants near the tank, and let your work know you might be missing for a few days. 
My personal favorite and method that is never mentioned anywhere is the use of a shaman, whose hex/spell causes the fish to back up to the overflow, to relieve themselves. This can get quite expensive, not just the cost of the shaman, but the repairs to the flooring, where the fire pit is built. Do not cheap out here, the dancing, rattle shaking is ineffective without the fire.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

toby, if i am seeing this correctly it's an intake without an overflow, so it looks like a canister on the inside of the tank, and the hole you drilled in the pvc stops the syphon once the water level drops below it, which is a great safety feature in case your pump shuts off


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

The illistration above is an intake/overflow design to a sump for a drilled tank...

If you are using an overflow box on an undrilled tank... and this overflow box uses a U tube to siphon water into the overflow box... I do not see why you cannot simply extend the end of the U that is inside the tank down to a few inches above the bottom of the tank...


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Toby_H said:


> The illistration above is an intake/overflow design to a sump for a drilled tank...
> I do not see why you cannot simply extend the end of the U that is inside the tank down to a few inches above the bottom of the tank...


Even though it would mean putting a hole in the, in tank, skimmer for the "U" tube extension..That is an excellent idea. =D> 
Seems an idea well worth the try.
The added hole would have no effect on the skimmer, water height.. With a 2 tube system you could still use the skimmer..as..well..a skimmer.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

I am of the opinion that no matter where you put your intake there will still be waste that does not get picked up. Personally my experience is that a surface skimmer is no better or worse than any other filter intake. And the same can be said about an intake that is positioned deep in the tank.

Rather than think of intake height as an obstacle for waste pickup, think of the fact that throughout the whole volume of water you are trying to collect floaties in a 1" area. I would say that the probability of the waste being in the right place at the right time with the right velocity is the same no matter where the intake is placed.

The only way to overcome the problem of chance is to "intelligently" design the water flow in the tank to push all floating waste to the filter intake. This approach is the same regardless of whether the intake is at the surface or at the substrate, but in my experience this is an effort in futility.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

I use the AGA megaflow weirs on my overflow tanks and they remove waste from the bottom portion of the water collumn just as well as the top. As a matter of fact I catch more fry with the lower part of the weir than my other fish do.

It is important that flow directs the current to the general area of the weir. I still need to vac out poop with the WC's but the water collumn is very clear and clears up quickly after stirring up the bottom.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

boredatwork said:


> The only way to overcome the problem of chance is to "intelligently" design the water flow in the tank to push all floating waste to the filter intake. This approach is the same regardless of whether the intake is at the surface or at the substrate, but in my experience this is an effort in futility.


While I agree wholeheartedly about the importance/benefit of an intelligent design to the water flow / filtration... I disagree that an intake at the surface can collect physical waste as easily as an intake at the bottom...

While the type / size of fish will make a difference in this... it takes more current to get waste to the surface than it does to simply scoot it in a direction...

Waste naturally settles to the bottom... therefore I suggest we work with that. Gently scoot it in a direction then pick it up at a given location or locations. Putting enough water movement to swirl the waste of large Cichlids into the water column until it eventually lands at the surface intake is a lot of water movement... and that approach also leave a lot of waste swirling around the water column until it lands at the surface intake...

While it is nearly impossible to have filtration get every bit of waste into the filter... I still so no harm in an intelligent design that gets as much as practical...

and I think not doing this is... not making the most of your filtration...


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## serp (Sep 3, 2009)

KaiserSousay said:


> Toby_H said:
> 
> 
> > The illistration above is an intake/overflow design to a sump for a drilled tank...
> ...


uhm, maybe im missing something here. Wouldn't this cause a flood if he loses power (depending on his overflow design) 

Normally people set the level of the surface skimmer right above the max the sump can hold in case of power outage. The rear box usually has the intake slightly above the bottom of the front box (so you dont lose your suction, it just equalizes the water level in front and back.)

If he extends the u tube into the tank, this wont happen and he will flood and come find you guys :lol:

http://www.marinedepot.com/CPR_CS_Overf ... EB-vi.html

You could put a durso type standpipe in the rear part of the overflow box to set your water level and prevent flooding. this is my favorite, and the best standpipe out there. 
http://home.everestkc.net/jrobertson57268/HGB/

Its a DIY, but if you are taking on this project, youve already decided to DIY :lol:


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

I'm not sure that every one of us are using hte same termonology here..



serp said:


> uhm, maybe im missing something here. Wouldn't this cause a flood if he loses power (depending on his overflow design)


So please clarify where you feel there may be a risk of overflow taking place...

In the illistration posted above, a 'siphon' will start removing water from the bottom of the tank and dropping it into the sump. I feel this will allow the sump to be a much more efficient mechanical filter...

When the pump is turned off.. water will continue to siphon down... until the water level drops below the hole drilled in the PVC (indicated by a red dot). This hole will be an inch or less below the water's surface...

When the water's surface falls below the hole/dot... the 'siphon' will break. The water will continue to drop until it reaches the bottom of the T valve. This level is indicated by a red line.

So it is true that this intake will require the sump be prepared to accept a portion of water from the tank... but it will in no way "drain the tank"...

This would require the main tank to drop 2" or less depending on the diameter of the overflow in use. On a 180 gallon tank... this will be about 15 gallons. So I admit this set up will only work with a substantial sized sump on such a tank... such as a 55 gal sump on a 180 gal tank...


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## serp (Sep 3, 2009)

I wasn't referring to your diagram toby, i was referring to the comment to put a hole in the skimmer overflow box (front section of overflow) and extending a tube into the tank.

it would result in a possible extra inch or two of water from the main tank being pumped into the sump unless a standpipe was used for the rear chamber intake in the overflow box.

your design would work fine, although i would stand the T sideways and put the siphon break hole on top, and stick a tube of airline down there to dampen the noise. I have seen similar designs to yours with external overflows and gurglebusters/stand pipes to virtually eliminate the noise.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

serp said:


> I wasn't referring to your diagram toby, i was referring to the comment to put a hole in the skimmer overflow box (front section of overflow) and extending a tube into the tank.


http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/d ... erflow.php


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

boredatwork said:


> I am of the opinion that no matter where you put your intake there will still be waste that does not get picked up. Personally my experience is that a surface skimmer is no better or worse than any other filter intake. And the same can be said about an intake that is positioned deep in the tank.
> 
> Rather than think of intake height as an obstacle for waste pickup, think of the fact that throughout the whole volume of water you are trying to collect floaties in a 1" area. I would say that the probability of the waste being in the right place at the right time with the right velocity is the same no matter where the intake is placed.
> 
> The only way to overcome the problem of chance is to "intelligently" design the water flow in the tank to push all floating waste to the filter intake. This approach is the same regardless of whether the intake is at the surface or at the substrate, but in my experience this is an effort in futility.


I gotta agree with boredatwork. Even with a tube down in the tank, you've got to get the floaties to it. They're not all going to go to a tube because it's positioned at the bottom. Interesting design though Toby, and I'm going to ponder it for my current project.

Another point is that there seems to be a misconception about overflows, often called 'skimmers'. It only 'skims' if you've got the size and gph set just right so that there's a very thin layer of water going over the overflow. Often that's not the case. Mine have almost 3/4" of an inch height going over the overflow, and as a result, it doesn't just pull from the surface, not at all. It pulls from the upper half of the tank. Water doesn't just get drawn in horizontally. You don't have to get all the floaties up to the very top of the water column. Instead, you have to get it within the 'pull zone'.

So, following boredatwork's point. If I can keep stuff in suspension a bit with strategically placed pumps for circulation, then I can achieve good mechanical filtration. But, no matter what you do, I don't think you'll ever eliminate stuff collecting on the bottom. I have to clean my prefilter in my drip tray fairly often as it collects quite a bit. Every week I have something in front of me that confirms overflows do mechanical filtration very well. It has nothing to do with whether it's a filter intake or an overflow, but how much gets near enough to be taken in. Overflows often have a wider area that pulls stuff in than an intake tube on a canister or HOB filter, so can makeup for having to fight against gravity. Overflows usually have a bigger 'pull zone', they're just usually near the top of the tank and have to deal with gravity working against them.

So, adjust your overflow size and gph so you're not 'skimming' and place a koralia or two in the tank, and it may do the job as well as anything.

If you can modify your design, Toby, so it runs the width of the tank, then I think it'd give it a big advantage. It gets unsightly, but connect the two intake tubes (assuming two overflows) and drill slots or holes along that tube. I'm sure there's an even better way to design it, but you get where I"m going. Expand the 'pull zone'.


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## dantesdango (Sep 10, 2009)

I had the same issue, and just put a bubble wall in front of the overflow, helps mask the overflow, and no more POO! I have a photo, but don't know how to post it...[/img]


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## serp (Sep 3, 2009)

KaiserSousay said:


> serp said:
> 
> 
> > I wasn't referring to your diagram toby, i was referring to the comment to put a hole in the skimmer overflow box (front section of overflow) and extending a tube into the tank.
> ...


right, a standpipe to set the water level...as i said in my last post that you selectively quoted. Everyone had failed to mention these crucial details here... :lol:


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## serp (Sep 3, 2009)

prov356 said:


> boredatwork said:
> 
> 
> > I am of the opinion that no matter where you put your intake there will still be waste that does not get picked up. Personally my experience is that a surface skimmer is no better or worse than any other filter intake. And the same can be said about an intake that is positioned deep in the tank.
> ...


they make overflows that are siliconed into the tank with teeh at the top, and intakes in the middle and bottom of the tank. These do a fair job at pulling water from all depths of the tank, and are drilled at the bottom of the tank for a durso and return. This design actually works fairly well for reef tanks, but is still not going to pull detritus from the far side of the tank. As boredatwork said, intelligent flow design is still key. You want to push the waste towards the intakes.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> they make overflows that are siliconed into the tank with teeh at the top, and intakes in the middle and bottom of the tank


Megaflow systems I considered making mine that way, but decided against the extra fabrication involved. It does look like a good design though.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

I am using megaflow overflows and weirs. They work great. If I shake up the detritus in the tank so the water collumn is nasty in just fifteen minutes you would never know it. I need to clean the filterpads in the drip tray every week.

My biggest problem if you want to call it one is the bottom of the weir injests most of my fry and I find them deceased in the drip tray.


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## justinf67 (Jul 19, 2009)

wow, this thread took off, lol...to kinda clarify, I have an overflow box that can handle 900 gph. I run a pump that pushes about 840gph. I have a TON of flow through my tank, levels are good... I have the intank-skimmer on the right side, and my diy spraybar on the left. i have holes drilled in it to agititate the surface, and some extras that direct some of the flow down...the way the flow goes, it pushes the poo to the right side, directly underneath my skimmer... now, it only takes a min to vaccum it out, but was only curious if i could add a tube close to the bottom since the poo collects directly underneath. just wanted to make sure it wouldnt mess up my current system... i think i will make a pvc tube, paint it black, pull the overflow, drill a hole to allow the new siphon... seems this will save me the small step of collecting that poo. maybe when i do this i will add pics, lol


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