# pH range for South American Cichlids



## iLuvAngels

I am planning on setting up my first South American Cichlid tank in the near future and I am trying to gather as much information as I can before I do so. My pH is on the low side and I'd rather ask those of you who have experience with these fish. What is the lowest pH level that Angels and Bolivian Rams can tolerate?


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## blairo1

I wouldn't recommend a pH below 6 for Bolivian Rams, unless you have sufficient experience with them already to accurately gauge how well they are doing.

Otherwise, where do you draw the line and how do you even know where that line is until you've crossed it (by then it's too late).....

As it will be your FIRST SA Cichlid tank (first cichlid tank in general? Ever?) then you need to keep everything nice and simple - so, it would be better if you could tell us what your pH is, one step further would be to provide us with your KH and GH - this way we can accurately gauge the water parameters and can therefore make much better recommendations for what will and won't work in your water.... What you can get away with, and what shouldn't be done at all.

:thumb:


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## iLuvAngels

I don't know what my KH or GH is but the pH in my 10 gallon tank stays around 6.4 - 6.6

A little off topic, but I just looked at your tanks and I have to tell you that they are beautiful! :thumb:


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## Dutch Dude

Bolivians and Angels will be fine in your PH and almost any SA fish will apreciate the lower PH. The Angels will love it and for the Bolivians PH=6.4 is on the low end but won't be a problem.

For some info on Bolivians you can check this link http://www.brc.moonfruit.com and the profile section on this site and of course the BRC Bolivian Ram Club treat on the SA board.


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## blairo1

:thumb: Thanks for your kind words *iLuvAngels*!! I appreciate it, not long and I should have my latest planted tank escapades up....

Listen to Dutch Dude! 

Your water is what a lot of people really hope for, heck people out there are going nuts putting peat in the filter to try and reduce the pH, but what you have there is a really workable range for SA's....


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## DeadFishFloating

> heck people out there are going nuts putting peat in the filter to try and reduce the pH


who...what...where...why... :roll: oh I guess Blair means me...sigh.

*iLuvAngels* you got some good water there. Ever thought of bottling it and selling to those of us with high PH water.


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## blairo1

:lol:


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## iLuvAngels

lol - no, I never thought about bottling up my water and selling it. I have always had a problem with my pH being so low. I am fairly new to fishkeeping. Just started it about a year ago and the fish I had in my first tank needed higher pH so I would put crushed coral in my filter to help raise it. The thought occured to me that I should try and find what fish do better in low pH so I wouldn't have to worry about it as much. It looks like I have finally found them now! I really think South American fish are beautiful especially Angelfish so I am happy to hear that they should do well with my pH 

You will probably hear from me quite often in the near future when I get my South American tank set up and running. I hope you don't mind.


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## DirtyBlackSocks

You don't really need to worry about adjusting pH until you decide it's time to breed - and if your pH is already that low you shouldn't have to worry anyhow.

Most people have over a 7.4 pH, what that generally means is that the gH is also up there - South Americans are somewhat unique in that they breed during the first heavy rains of the Spring season.

What this means is that they're laying eggs in very soft waters free of mineral content - if they try and breed in normal waters with a higher gH from city tap water the eggs will harden over before the male can fertilize them.

In terms of making your actual fish happy - if they aren't wild caught they will do best in whatever waters they've been raised in. It's best to try to find local breeders for this reason - and it saves you the hassle of trying to buffer your waters to adjust to the fish.


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## naegling23

a pH in the 6.5 region, I would think apisto's and blue rams would love a tank like that. I know some people are recommending bolivians, but thats a pretty low pH for them. They are hardy for most, but might be trouble in that water. Where a blue ram might thrive. I would think an easier apisto like a cacutoides or an agasizi would be perfect.

Angels, tetras and most south american community fish will also do well in that water.

By the way, a post in the south american forum where you state that you have a problem with a low pH makes us all very jealeous ;-)

(im sorry about the spelling in this post, I usually use firefox with a built in spellcheck, im at work using IE).


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## iLuvAngels

I haven't heard of the other apistos that you mentioned naegling23. I'll look them up on the internet to find out more about them.

I'm tip- toeing out of the forum now and taking my low pH "problem" with me ... hehe  Sorry guys, I just had to say that


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## blairo1

naegling bud, I can't let this one slip past  . You and Ruurd......



> I know some people are recommending Bolivians, but thats a pretty low pH for them.


Whaaaaaaat!  A pH of 6.5 isn't _dangerously_ low for the Bolivians, we recommend a range of between 6.0 and 7.8 for a good reason (Ruurd and I differ on this slightly in some ways :lol: just proves that it's all down to what you experience) - however, this _is_ the tried and tested successful range for these fish, what's more they are hardy enough to go further, knowing of individuals keeping them in water closer to pH 8.0-8.2 and I myself prefer to keep them in a pH of 5.6-5.8 (KH2), however these are ranges that _are _ outside of what one should attempt, at least until you are better experienced with the species. I've found that I get the strongest colouration, largest spawns and best success rate in that range. Blue Rams really just fit into the 6.5 range, I prefer to advocate that people maintain a pH of between 5.0, up to 6.0 as a maximum (simply due to _my_ experience with them).

Obviously both fish can be kept above and below these ranges, they adapt, but it _is_ better to try and stay within reasonable limits (at least initially!). I personally recommend Bolivians because they fit very easily into this sort of pH range, and given their hardy nature I believe you will find it easier to attain success in terms of health, vitality, breeding etc. Usually once people are familiar and successful with the Bolivian Ram I will recommend that they move onto the Blue Ram (because I love them both! They are after all both of the Mikrogeophagus sp.) and other, more challenging dwarf Cichlids.

Of course you can go straight in if Blues are what you want! I did before I perhaps should have and I had great success so don't be afraid to try something you want to either, I just prefer to recommend a somewhat more hardy dwarf Cichlid for your first real shot at this - you're bound to want more tanks and more fish, so there will always be time to move onto slightly more delicate species. Blues are just one of those funny fish where people either have great luck, or no matter what they just can't keep them alive. I don't want you to be put off by the fickle relationship that can be Blue Ram ownership, putting you off these fish for good, when really they are a spectacular species if given the right care and attention.... Don't forget luck either!

I always forget the Apisto and I think these are great suggestions, I am drawn to the world of Apistogramma. There are so many different species to choose from, why not use the cichlid forum profile search to help - do a search by species characteristics, specifically you are looking at your search to involve Water Hardness - yours would be very soft - soft (it would really help if you could get an actual reading here for your KH and GH).

With a quick search of soft water sp. it brings up 166 odd sp. so then click away and look at - how large the fish gets (will it fit, long term into the tank, would you be willing to make space for it), how aggressive it is, it's pH range and if there are any specific notes about it's difficulty level etc.

So you have some choices to make! :lol: Why not get a few tanks and keep them all.......

(If you think I'm joking, I give you two months and whether you expected it or not, you'll have another tank).

Fish tanks are like magnets, big magnets that attract other fishtanks and force you to stockpile them in your garage. Why? Because you bought a bigger one to replace the one you bought to replace the first small one you had, but that wasn't right because then the weight of the room was off, so you had to move that couch out and make room for another tank that should be where the focal point was supposed to be, then you get annoyed because it's just not big enough, you don't see it enough or you just want change, so you go and buy another one, but wait, now you realise the benefit of leaving the others up (mwahahahahah), and finding room for this one...... Why?

Because we can! 8)

All within the space of about, I don't know, a week.....

(True story, apart from the time frame....)


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## Dutch Dude

I was short and clear abouth the PH range,....


> Bolivians and Angels will be fine in your PH and almost any SA fish will apreciate the lower PH. The Angels will love it and for the Bolivians PH=6.4 is on the low end but won't be a problem.


 So I don't expect problems with a PH as low as 6.4. I do think Bolivians apreciate a PH around 7 more. The specie is very tolerant if it comes to water prams but you won't be on the dangerous side but 6.4 is close to the lower limit. So Blair in this case we agrea.

For Apisto's I can also recommend A. borellii. The borellii and cacs are the hardiest and most tolerant fish among the Apisto's. A. borellii Opal is a beautiful strong colored fish. Watch out with fish from the Czech republic. They are often infected with flagellates what very well can lead to Bloat! An other specie worth to mention is Laetacara dorsigera (redbreas acara). Those are hardy to and also beautiful fish with plenty of character.


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## blairo1

Ruurd it's alright, I was just poking fun .

I also wanted to say that I know of people keeping Blues in a pH of 7! Which shows how adaptable these fish are. I just want to see iLuvAngels have an easy and enjoyable experience as the starting point, because of how much I remember it getting me into the hobby.

Ruurd having kept the "3-4 year lifespan" Bolivian alive for 7 years! is someone I would advise you to listen to.... Ruurd also knows that I like to play with water :lol:.


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## Dutch Dude

> Ruurd it's alright, I was just poking fun


 :lol: you, you, you,...I will take revenge some day! :wink:



> Ruurd also knows that I like to play with water .


Yep,..play submarine in the bath tub right? 



> Ruurd having kept the "3-4 year lifespan" Bolivian alive for 7 years


this is true,....I'm the one who was the most surprised,....not by the 7 years but the fact that everyone told they become only around 4 to 5 years. I was stunned and apparently did something right.


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## iLuvAngels

I have looked at some of the apistos and I must say that I have fallen in love with the Cockatoo Dwarf Cichlid! I have to have some in my aquarium. They are beautiful, especially the male cockatoo. I still am in the planning stages but I just don't know what I am gonna do when it comes time for me to stock my tank. :roll: 
I know it will have a pair of Angels in it for sure and some cory cats but who know what else because I like so many of these darn south american cichlids!!!! :?


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## cage623

What can I say, falling in love with cichlids is a double edged sword. You will love all the ones that you have but you will always have others that you want to get. :lol:


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## iLuvAngels

:lol: Yes and of course my husband wants all the Cichlids that are either the most aggressive or most difficult to keep. He picks out fish according to how they look. I have to keep explaining to him that certain fish can be put together and certain fish cannot. I hate saying no to so many of his suggestions but since I am new to Cichlids and will be the one taking care of them, I HAVE to start with the EASIEST fish for now.


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## Dutch Dude

> I HAVE to start with the EASIEST fish for now


Sounds like a wise decision! Lots of guy's select the beautiful mostly demanding species or go for the more aggressive fish. Your doing right to check if you can provide the fish what they need and check if species can be tank mates. That's how it should work for everyone. We do are responsible for the health of our pets right?

So after reading the latest post and keeping the in mind that the tank also has to be interesting for your husband I strongly suggest the Bolivians. They are good looking, easy to maintain and do have lots of personality! Even a dedicated African owner like Kim falen in love with the little guy's.

We talked abouth the PH and you received some good suggestions. maybe I missed it but what is the size (dimensions) of the tank?


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## iLuvAngels

:lol: Of course my husband likes the Blue Rams more than the Bolivians but he did say that the Bolivians are nice "looking" fish too. :roll: I'm getting some Bolivians :wink: but I also like the Dwarf Cockatoo too - lol. Do Bolivians need caves?

The tank I am getting is 48 1/2" x 18 1/2" x 21 1/2"


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## Dutch Dude

:lol: So you decided on the Bolivians? A small group of 5 would be great and this leaves you some room for a harem of A. cacatuoides! I suggest one male and 2 female Cac's and at least 3 caves and if possible a few more. Bolivians don't need caves only a spawning site like some driftwood or a flat stone. The stone doesn't have to be large and 2 to 3 inch will be fine. I do suggest lots of plants and territorial markers (driftwood and stones) in this tank so the Cac's and Bolivians won't argue all the time.


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## iLuvAngels

Wow, I can have both Bolivians and Cac's? I also want 2 Angels as well as some Cory Cats and a school of Tetras. Would that be okay?


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## Dutch Dude

Hahaha,...yeh I expect the Bolivians and Cac's will be fine in a tank that size. I don't know how well angels would do if there are just 2. I would expect they also be better of in small groups but,....I'm no angel expert. The size of the tank surely allows you 5 angels. But,....it also depends on your filtration system. A nice large school of tetras will be fine and I would ad abouth 15 or so. Make sure you buy a larger specie or high bodied tetras becouse Angels will snack small once and slender bodied tetras. Corydoras will be fine but remember,...they are egg eaters! So if you like to raise some youngsters of the Bolivians I would avoid the Cory's and take some Oto's in stead.


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## iLuvAngels

I just bought a AC 110 and am planning on getting a Eheim 2217 for filtration purposes. I didn't know that Angels do better in groups. I'll have to research that a little bit more too  As far as tertras go, we are still deciding on those too. We like the Bleeding Heart Tetra, the Congo Tetra and the Lemon Tetras to name a few. I think those are considered the larger bodied Tetras so I hope they will be safe with the Angels. I didn't know that Cories eat eggs either! I still think we will get cories for the tank because right now I am not too keen on raising any youngsters from the Bolivians. It may be a little overwhelming for me because I don't know what I would do with them and I don't want my tank to be overstocked if that was to happen. Although in time I think it would be a very interesting thing to do. I'm sure my children would love to watch all of that unfold. Of course that means we would probably have to get another tank to move the cories to and my husband would surely filp out.  He is already asking me how many tanks I plan on having in the house and I only have 2 small 2.5 mini-bows and one 10 gallon tank as of now. I started with the little ones (which was a mistake as I should have went big from the start) and then decided I really like fish and wanted more of them especially the South American Cichlids. So now I am set on getting my 75 gallon Tank.


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## Dutch Dude

The filtration will be fine! I never kept Angels nor put much interest in them but what I can remember they do best in small groups,....but I can be wrtong on that!

I love the lemon tetras but unfortunately they are not that big and slender bodied. I expect the bleeding harts to be a beter choice just like Colombian tetras. They are indeed larger and high bodied tetras. neons would make a very poor choice for example. A other option is emperor tetras. They are slender bodied but quit large and fast swimming specie. Not an easy snack for an angel.

Corries love eggs and wigglers! They are not a good choice if you like to breed some fish. Oto's are a better option and they are fun to watch to. I don't know how abouth dwarf cories are. They behave more like tetras and don't spend much time on the substrate. C hastatus is such a dwarf cory. Maybe some more investigation on that specie as well.

I'm sure your children, your husband and everyone entering your home will be entousiast to see the excellent care of mom and dad Bolivian and their large group of fry!



> Of course that means we would probably have to get another tank to move the cories to and my husband would surely filp out. He is already asking me how many tanks I plan on having in the house and I only have 2 small 2.5 mini-bows and one 10 gallon tank as of now.


 :lol: :lol: :lol: Tel him he sounds like most of the wife's of the male aquarium owners, hahaha! Only a few small tanks so what is the problem right, hahaha! Well thats the benefit of being single, haha! I know a guy who basically lives in the spare bedroom and turned his home into a large fish room!

So you finally decided that it was time to buy a larger tank,....your first larger tank :wink: :lol:


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## DeadFishFloating

> The filtration will be fine! I never kept Angels nor put much interest in them but what I can remember they do best in small groups,....but I can be wrtong on that!


Ah Ruurd, you have to understand he really doesn't pay to much attention to threads that have little to do with Bolivian rams, or Gymno's.  :lol:

Hi *iLuvAngels*,

There has been quite a bit of discussion about keeping angelfish, particular tank size and stocking levels. One common theme was that angelfish show a fair amount of conspecific agression, i.e. they pick on each other alot. Often members of a school will pick on the weakest member of the school till it dies, then start all over again.

The more experienced angelfish keepers here tend to advise buying a small group of juveniles and letting them grow up together and waite for a pair to form. Once you have your pair, remove the rest, typically traded back to an LFS.

I do think you'll be fine with a pair of angelfish, two pairs of Bolivian rams, and a pair of apisto thug, oh er cacs (sorry I just have an ugly issue with cacs, I think there are many nicer looking apistos out there).

As for tankmates.

I'd definately go a gang of eight corydoras, one of the smaller, good looking species. I think bronze and peppered cory's are pretty boring :roll: . Obviously your limited to what your LFS has in stock, but check out a few different LFS and write up a list of what's available, and also see if any LFS will order in a certain species for you. Here's somewhere to start, http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/nu ... &genus_id= .

There are many cool tetras out there. I have some Lemon tetras, and they are a good schooling tetra. I also like hatchetfish, particularly the smaller marbled hatchetfish. Also Emporer tetras should be large enough to not fall prey to Angelfish, and have a more traditional shape to them.

Good luck and keep us posted.

:thumb:


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## iLuvAngels

Hmmm, could you suggest some nicer looking apistos that I could look at? The pics of the cuckatoos I saw online were pretty nice but I am always open to more suggestions


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## DirtyBlackSocks

I peresonally like panduro/pandurini the most - both males and females have striking coloration and they're little bull dogs.

One of the best looking and also most expensive on the market is Elizabethae (not sure if that's spelled correctly).

If you want a long list of apistogramma and what they look like try heading over to southerapistos.com and looking through the stocklist - they leave everything that's come through their place up for people to view, so you can get a good idea.


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## rachelchick

Oh no! go with the cacatuoides!!! I've got a 55 gal with a pair of bolivians and a pair of cacautuoides that have both spawned in the past week! I LOVE my male cockatoo! SO beautiful! And the females are so spunky. You will not be disappointed! 









And as far as your hubby liking the blue rams better, just give the bolivians time to settle in and they get some of the most gorgeous coloring. Those at the LFS never do them justice and pictures can almost never capture how pretty they really are. Not to mention they are much more hardy, in my experience.


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## Dutch Dude

> Ah Ruurd, you have to understand he really doesn't pay to much attention to threads that have little to do with Bolivian rams, or Gymno's


 :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well Peter you forgot abouth the Brasiliensis, Guianacara, Apisto's and my latest project will be Discus.  Angels is just not my thing.



> I peresonally like panduro/pandurini the most - both males and females have striking coloration and they're little bull dogs.


They will be fine in a larger tank by them selves but I don't think this is a good idea to mix in with Bolivians. Bolivians are no bulies but if an apisto don't know his place in the tank this could couse some real fights. A. elizabethae is indeed a very nice fish. I'm not sure but those might be the more demanding specie. I recommend the Cacatuoides and Borellii as hardiest and lots of domesticated apisto's like the Hongsloi II and Macmasteri are also les delicate and show beautiful strong colors. There are several color morphs of Cac's so something to check out.


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## iLuvAngels

Rachelchick, is that picture of your male cockatoo? If so then I am sold! I always wonder if the fish actually owned by normal everyday people can look like the pictures of those in books or on the internet. I love the fins on the male cockatoo. It reminds me of fire. Okay so I know now that my fish stocking list will include Angels, Bolivian Rams, Dwarf Cockatoos, Cory Cats and Tetras.

Which group of fish do I put in the tank first after it has been cycled? I have read that certain fish should not be added to a newly cycled tank. Are there any on my list that fall under this category?


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## dwarfpike

I usually do the cories or tetras first ... depending on the species though, cardinals or rummynose would be an exception becuase of how touchy they are. I would do the angels last in this setup, as they are the most pushy. If you can swing it, I'd do the rams and apisto's at the same time so neither has an edge to selecting territories.


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## rachelchick

This is my male cockatoo. Isn't he gorgeous?! You will love them! They are so beautiful and so fun! It seems like our tastes are right up the same alley!!  I've currently got all the fish you are planning to put in your tank - with the exception of the angels - which I'm planning on adding soon.

The cockatoos are going to be a little more aggressive than your bolivians, but they will get along just great as long as they've both got some good distinction between territories. Even when I had them all together in a smaller tank, there was no damage, just a little chasing. They'll be great together!

I definitely agree with dwarfpike on the adding order. As he said, it just depends on the tetras - I've found even neons are pretty touchy with water quality.

Good luck! This will be a fun tank for you!


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