# First cichlid tank stocking - 75 gallon



## jasminaj (Jan 23, 2020)

Hi everyone,
I am new to the forum and cichlid keeping. Hoping for some advice to help me make up my mind about sticking.

I have a 75 gallon tank with two Eheim Classic canister filters (2215?, I think), fully cycled that I am maintaining the bacteria with pure ammonia. Ammonia and nitrite have been 0 for at least a week, nitrates are over 80, and will be doing a water change to lower before adding fish.

My tap water Ph is high, plus I have flagstone decorations and aragonite substrate. Tank Ph is around 8.2.

Onto the stocking question. I am completely overwhelmed with the stocking decision! I am still deciding if I should go with peacock, haps, some combo or Mbunas. There are a few factors that are important to me:

1. I prefer not to have blood in my tank. I know cichlids are aggressive but hoping that I can come up with a stocking choice where I won't have fish kill other fish
2. I like blue fish. I really like c moorii and star sapphire (Placidochromis something) 
3. I like striped fish. I love Frontosas, but I believe my tank is too small 
4. I would love to see a process of breeding, but not interested in selling fish or being overrun with fry. I only have a 10 gallon planted tank that currently has some snails, ghost shrimp, a placo and a single guppy. 
5. I Would like to add some catfish if stocking levels allow. I have a sizable Pleco that used to live in this tank when I bought it that I plan on putting back in
6. I would like to have more than one species of fish in the tank for color, but if that's not a good idea because of the breeding, I can count catfish as another species

From what I understand if I want to breed any peacocks, then I can only have a single species. In that case what else could I add to the tank?

Could I have a single species for breeding (eg blue dolphins, star sapphire or a peacock) and different species for more color?

Could I use the 10 gallon to raise some of the fry?

I will stock in at least two batches. First one is this Sunday and second in about two weeks when my LFS has a 20% off sale and a larger selection.

Attaching a photo of my setup.

Thanks for any advice!


----------



## jcover (Apr 18, 2014)

Your tank is too small for C moorii and star sapphires.

I would suggest peacocks or mbuna for your tank. Mbuna you will get lots of colour but more aggression.

Peacocks you will get a couple of colourful males (maybe only 1) and drab females, unless you go all male only. All male tanks, however, are rather difficult to achieve. They can take some years to establish properly.

To supplement a breeding group of Peacocks, you could add some synodontis catfish (multipunctatus). You MAY be able to add Labidochromis caeruleus...

I personally would use bristlenose plecos..

A 10 gallon can be a temporary place for fry to raise. If you leave holding females in the tank, you wont have to worry about saving fry.

Frontosas need a minimum 6 foot tank.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Agree 100% with jcover. I would suggest 1m:6f Labidochromis caeruleus and 1m:6f Pseudotropheus acei for peace and color and fry. The 5 Synodontis multipunctatus for fry control. Leave holding females in the tank.

Your fry will eat your shrimp in the 10G, and probably the guppy too, I would not use that for cichlid fry.


----------



## jasminaj (Jan 23, 2020)

Thank you for the suggestion. If I go with only yellow labs and acei, can I also add some rusties? If so what numbers would you recommend of each of the three species?


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Shoot for a max of 20. If you add rusties you don't have as many blue fish.

You could also do the labs with Cynotilapia sp. hara.


----------



## jasminaj (Jan 23, 2020)

I know this is a 180 turn but I am curious about the white lip mdoka. How big do they get? Wikipedia says 6.2", which should work in my tank? Other sites say 10", which wouldn't. I LOVE that fish. I am finding that I am really attracted to haps, and generally bigger, slower fish more than the smaller, quicker mbunas.

If those don't work, any suggestions for a single species of haps that I could have a colony of in my 75 gallon?

Thanks so much! I really appreciate the advice


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't see any reputable source saying less than ten inches. Sounds like you need to dump the 75G and get a 72". :thumb:

A commonly available blue hap that is likely to work in a 48" tank like a 75G is fryeri. But would you want one colored fish a 15 silver ones?


----------



## jasminaj (Jan 23, 2020)

I would not  that's why I was attracted to the above haps - females have the same color as males.

I don't see a bigger tank in my future  even this was a stretch as nobody in my family shares the passion, to say the least...

I'll keep pondering and reading about other setups.

Thanks for the info


----------



## jasminaj (Jan 23, 2020)

I am down to considering the following mbunas:

Acei
Cynotilapia sp. hara (is this white top afra?)
Maylandia callainos 
Metriaclima callainos, Pearl (are these two callainos the same, just different color) 
Yellow labs 
Kenyi

I will definitely include the acei. I am not a huge fan of yellow, although a few yellow fish do add a nice pop of color. That's why I was considering kenyi, plus I get striped blue females. Some people say they are very aggressive and some say they are not. Any personal experiences?

How many breeding harems would you recommend? I understand I should have about 2 fish so make to female ratio would change depending on the number of groups. 
Do you see any issues with any of the above combinations?


----------



## ken31cay (Oct 9, 2018)

jasminaj said:


> That's why I was considering kenyi, plus I get striped blue females. Some people say they are very aggressive and some say they are not. Any personal experiences?


They are very aggressive. In a 75gal you'd want only 1 male in the tank with at least 7 females. As juvies they're all light blue with dark blue bars, very pretty. As they mature the males turn a nice bright yellow/orange. The females retain the juvenile colors but those colors fade and they're not nearly as attractive.


----------



## jasminaj (Jan 23, 2020)

*20 fish total, not 2 fish  does that total include only cichlids or catfish and Plecos?


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The max species would be 4 because you need 4 females and 1 male of each. That is for peaceful species unlike kenyi.

You could also do 1, 2 or 3 species but add females to each group to get about 20.

Choose species that look nothing alike. So you would not want hara and blue callainos and acei...choose one of those.

You could do acei and callainos pearl because they look nothing alike.

If you want a bright blue, consider Pseudotropheus cyaneorhabdos Maingano. 1m:7f for these as they can be feisty (much less than kenyi though).

Exclude catfish and plecos, but 5 Synodontis and 1 bristlenose are a good count for those.


----------



## jasminaj (Jan 23, 2020)

Is the reason I am choosing species that lol nothing alike to reduce aggression or to prevent cross breeding? Or both?


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Both. Managing aggression leads to a healthy tank. Cichlids that are worn down by excessive chasing and even numerous minor injuries are prone to illness and this can spread throughout the tank.


----------



## jasminaj (Jan 23, 2020)

Just wanted to update with my final selection:

5 (1:4) of each:
Acei
Rusty
Callainos pearl
Yellow lab

5 catfish
1 bristle nose pleco

One final question about how to introduce this many fish. I only have the catfish and Pleco in the tank (as of today). I am mail ordering the cichlids to arrive on Thursday. Can I add them all at once and be ready for water changes if there is an ammonia spike? I've been cycling with ammonia since 1/1 and the tank can process 3ppm in 24 hours.

Thanks!


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Don't add fish until ammonia and nitrites are both zero for several days. If that is the case you can add them all at once. What is your nitrate test result?

You are not ending up with much blue?

The catfish should be Synodontis lucipinnis or multipunctatus...others might not work with the Africans or in groups of five.


----------



## jasminaj (Jan 23, 2020)

I didn't see your post since it went to the next page, sorry!

It turns out I've been battling ich since day 1. I believe the fish came with ich and since this was my initial stocking I didnt have a second tank to isolate them.

I started with using ParaGuard for about 10-14 days or so but lost two catfish in the process. I then switched to Meteoplex in the food (not in water), along with temperature of 86-87F plus gradual increase in aquarium salt to 2TBSP per 5 gallons. The metroplex is coming up three weeks, which is when I should stop using it according to directions. The temp/salt has been in place for 12 days or so.

The ich seemed under control for a few days aside from catfish occasional flashing but nothing visible on any of the fish. But now I think I see some white spots on a yellow lab. I definitely see flashing, mostly with catfish but also some of the cichlids. All fish are acting normal and eating. Water parameters are ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 20.

Should I keep increasing the temp to 90, add more salt, all of the above or none of the above? Given that I have catfish, is there a particular medicine that is better tolerated by them and more effective than ParaGuard? I am not saying I lost the catfish to ParaGuard, maybe it was ich that killed them, but it also didn't cure ich obviously.

Any help is appreciated, as always!


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would exclude the metroplex and just keep going with the salt and heat...no higher. It takes 3 weeks so you have done 12 days. See how things are after 3 weeks.


----------



## jasminaj (Jan 23, 2020)

Thanks DJRansome for the suggestions. My concern is that it appears fish are getting reinfected (spots on fish that didn't have them before), which tells me that I am not actually killing the parasite?

I only have a few days left of the three week salt/raised temp treatment and some of the fish clearly still have ich. If it doesn't miraculously go away and stay away by this weekend, I need a different approach. To complicate things, we are going on vacation a week from this Friday and I would really like to get this under control before we leave. We'll be gone for 9 days. We have a reliable pet sitter, but he's not a fish keeper himself.

Any thoughts on other treatments to consider in the week or so that I will have left before going on vacation?

Thanks!


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would keep up the salt/heat since one week is not enough time to do anything else effective.

It is no effort for a pet sitter because you add the salt and turn up the hear before you leave and it just stays the same while you are gone.

Then when you return you can decide if you want to remove the salt and turn down the heat and try a medication.


----------



## jasminaj (Jan 23, 2020)

Well guess what? One of my yellow labs is holding! This is really exciting for me and I'd love to see the process of her spitting fry! I am also surprised because I've only had the fish for a month and a half and they are juveniles. I guess despite the stress of ich and various treatments the fish are still finding it acceptable  I am religious about water changes, so maybe that helped.

But I do have the ich problem still. It's not super obvious but I see some white spots on the tails of a few yellow labs although I am starting to think that it's their coloring changing maybe? There maybe some spots on the sides of one of the fish but given their color and sheen it's really hard to tell! They are every fast and I can't take any photos! I do see occasional flashing but maybe a few times a day whereas before it was constant. It's been over a month of various treatments and I am wondering if I should wait it out or try a different treatment? Especially given the holding female. Would fry be able to survive the salt (or any other) treatment? Finally, my 10 gallon is not available as I have a badly ich infected albino BN Pleco that's not doing very well so he's in there and I'm trying to nurse him back to health. So I only have the main tank available for the holding female and fry. Can I buy a breeder thingy that you stick on the inside of the tank to isolate her in there?

Thanks again for the much appreciated advice so far!


----------



## jasminaj (Jan 23, 2020)

I should also add that I have no idea how long she's been holding as I didn't quite realize what was going on. I noticed one of the fish looking a little different a few weeks back but didn't think much of it. Ow I'm thinking that it's the same one. I know she's holding because she swims up to the food very eagerly and then doesn't eat anything. And her mouth is definitely bigger than the other fish. I'll see if I can figure out how to post a photo


----------



## jasminaj (Jan 23, 2020)

Female yellow lab holding


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Congrats on the fry!

There are instructions on posting pics in the sticky at the beginning of every forum.

The white spots of ich are raised, like tiny grains of salt. If it is not ich...injuries like missing scales and nipped fins can look white. I have never seen spots when fish change color.

For examination or close pictures, you can examine the fish in a net or put the fish in a small, clear container like the ones they use in fish stores when catching fish for sale.

You will need a 20G cycled tank to raise the fry, so better to set up a new fry tank than to put the mom or the fry in a breeder box, especially if it would have to be in the main tank.


----------



## jasminaj (Jan 23, 2020)

So 10g is not enough? I don't have the space for the third tank. I can possibly use the 10g in the future but for now it would have to be either a breeder in the main tank or let the nature take its course 

Back to the ich question - does flashing indicate that it's ich? I will do my best to post a photo of the spots but for now let's just assume it is ich. What other treatment options can I try?


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Mbuna average clutch is 20 fry. When they are 2" (at the you can rehome them or put them in the main tank) they will be too big for 20 fish in a 10G.

I would let nature take it's course this time, and maybe the next time your 10G will be free. Even better swap out the 10G for a 20G which is only six inches longer. Adults in the main tank will eat fry in the breeder net right through the net. If you search on CF you will find many examples where this has happened to people.

I am thinking it is not ich else the treatments would have worked. Some flashing is normal. Flashing is not necessarily an indicator of ich...it means something is irritating the fish's skin...which salt and other meds can do.


----------



## jasminaj (Jan 23, 2020)

So I decided to try to strip the female and put the fry in the 10 gallon for now. I don't think I have ich in either tank now that I looked at the fish more closely so I figured that's their best bet for surviving at least until I can get another tank. Anyway, how the heck do I catch this fish?? I just spent nearly an hour trying!! And didn't even get close. I tried lowering the water to 50% (during water change to reduce the salinity). Should I try catching her when the lights are out? I am pretty sure I saw movement in her mouth, she's constantly hiding and seems to be "chewing" all the time which makes me think she is ready?


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Lower the water, remove all décor and 2 large nets.


----------



## willyg1631 (Feb 18, 2020)

I sit here maintaining social separation as I am older and diabetic, I find this forum one of my sources of entertainment. No sports is a major thing and I'm having withdrawal issues. I want to complement DJ on his amazing patience with us newbies and his expertise he willingly shares. DJ your thoughtful considered responses are very much appreciated. Thanks DJ
Bill


----------



## jasminaj (Jan 23, 2020)

I couldn't agree more! DJ has been awesome and I learned a ton.

Btw after catching her and attempting to strip her once I chickened out and put her back in the tank


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Thank you for the kind words. Our auction got cancelled because more than 150 attend so I am having fish withdrawal...I have been looking forward to new stock since the spring auction.  Have to hold out until May 3 now.

I have worked from home for 5 years now, grateful for the intellectual challenges and virtual contact with clients and colleagues. I have decided to do some solitary activities in nature, it is a good time of year for birding. I also want to see river otters in my new environment. They are nocturnal and live in river banks so I have to plan this.


----------



## jasminaj (Jan 23, 2020)

Unfortunately the eggs are gone  I had put the holding female in a plastic (transparent) reptile critter box that was recommended by a LFS and put some hiding caves inside. The whole setup was in the main tank. It was working well, I even had a camera for streaming the tank! The female clearly had eggs that she was tumbling in her mouth and she wasn't eating. Then today I saw her charging at another fish through the plastic window, and her mouth was open. I fed her a tiny pellet and she devoured it. Then I fed her more and she ate everything. I don't really know if she swallowed the eggs or spat them out and then ate them? There were no fry in the tank today for sure and I never saw them in her mouth. I only saw her "chewing" and what I assumed was turning or tumbling the eggs. Any guesses?

Also, my biggest fish is a pearl zebra (metriaclima callainos). It always has a very long poop (at least an inch, sometimes longer than 2) strand that is the color of food and pretty thick. Am I over feeding? None of the other fish have this, so I don't want to cut down on feeding because one fish may be overeating. He (I assume it's a male given the size) is pretty aggressive at feeding time and very quick, and feedings are generally pretty chaotic, so I can't tell if other fish are getting their fair share. I feed twice a day two different types of LSN pellets, slightly less than 1/8 of a teaspoon at each feeding. I try to put bits of food in all 4 corners of the tank to give smaller fish a chance to get food, but the bigger ones are really fast and seem to get the bulk of the food. The food never sinks because it's devoured at the surface, and I read somewhere that long poop could be the result of surface feeding. Any suggestions?


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Was she holding for 7 days after the spawn? If not the eggs may not have been fertilized. Or maybe there were fry and the adults sucked the babies through the holes.

Long poop means nothing...as long as the food is gone in 30 seconds and none of your fish are getting fat and you have minimal algae, you are not overfeeding.

There is a disease called bloat where the fish could have long thready clear poop, but if it is thick and food colored no worries.


----------

