# Alto Comp fry what should I do



## steve617 (Nov 10, 2003)

One of my F1 Mwela females laid eggs about 2 weeks ago in one of the shells. The parents are protecting the shell and now I can see on ocassions fry swimming in the shell. They tend to stay in the back of the shell. I gave them some frozen BBS and saw a couple come out to eat. I think I could easly get the shell out with the fry. Now my question is to what I should put them in. I have a 30 gallon long already setup. (which I think is probably too big). I may be able to set up a 5 or 10 gallon but may take a day or two to get set up correctly. I do have sponge filters I can use from other tanks. Or should I get a breeder net and place it in the same tank. Thanks for advice.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

I'd go ahead with the 30 gallon. Yes, it's big, but if it's already up and running go for it. The volume will be easier to keep stable (temp, water quality), and you won't have to move the fry until they're much larger. The good news is that even if you miss this batch, you'll get another chance soon. Congrats on the spawn!


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## steve617 (Nov 10, 2003)

Looks to be about 20 of them. I put them in the 30 monday morning. They are not very active at all. However if i try to give them bbs with a turkey baster they will swim off when i get close. I really falling in love with comps. Have a 70 setup also with nothing in it would like to put some inkfins in there next.


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## steve617 (Nov 10, 2003)

*** had the comp fry in a seperate tank now for just over 4 days. *** lost probably 4 or 5. Still have around 15. On a positive note. *** actually saw 3 or 4 of the go after live bbs.


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## steve617 (Nov 10, 2003)

Well just wanted to update. Its been 1 week today since *** moved the babies to the 30 long. I lost around 4 or 5 around day 3 and 4. Been feeding mainly live bbs with a turkey baster. Still looks to be 12 to 17 babies left. They are much more active and are eating. Still a very long road to go down.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Sounds good- any pictures? From what I've read, only losing a few alto fry means you're doing it right. :thumb: It often takes a few batches to get the conditions right for them to thrive.


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## steve617 (Nov 10, 2003)

Took a pic just a few minutes ago. Man they are small and hard to get the camera to focus.


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## cyfan964 (Apr 17, 2007)

Live BBS is great, but I've found using repashy spawn and grow is PERFECT for most Tangs.


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## steve617 (Nov 10, 2003)

Thanks I'll check it out and order me some.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

They still have egg sacs- you've got a few days before I'd expect them to be actively seeking food. For my newly hatched Tangs, I use decapsulated brine shrimp eggs and Golden pearl, and NLS Grow for older fry. What ever you use, make sure to clean up the uneaten food before it gets moldy.


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## steve617 (Nov 10, 2003)

I thought their egg sacs were gone. Perhaps I was wrong but looks that way in the photo on one of them. They have been more active the past couple of days. I tried golden pearls on my EBJD and thought it was messy. Right now Im hatching BBS (I have 2 hatcherys going) also have Hikari frozen BBS that my wife feeds when Im at work.


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## steve617 (Nov 10, 2003)

Just an update. its 10 days later after i moved them and no losses this past week. (did loose about 4 or 5 on day 3.) They are getting a little more active every day. Feeding them live BBS. Looks to be around 14 to 16 of them.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Congrats Steve. Just to warn you, altolamp fry are subject to mass die offs, for no apparent reason, in the first two months. Once you get passed the first two months, mortality rates seem to drop significantly. You really can't miss a beat in those first couple months or you will get punished. Fry survival rates of 95%+ are possible. This is your first spawn of many - they will spawn regularily for you from now on. As they mature, clutches of 100 to 200 are not all that uncommon. Freshly hatched BBS within the first day are ideal from a nutritional standpoint. Hatch fresh BBS daily and dump the previous days hatch. Try to feed BBS as soon as possible after hatching.

Below is a link with a lot of info on rearing altolamp fry (I'd rather paste the link than retype everything): http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/sh ... light=Muzi

Good luck!
Russ


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## steve617 (Nov 10, 2003)

Thanks Russ, Great info and advice. I have 2 brine shrips hatches going and I start a new batch about every day and a half. 2 days is the max I go. *** been feeding them 3 times a day and usually get about 4 or 5 feedings before *** been starting new hatchings. My biggest mistake which was unplanned was I got them on a white sand substrate so I cant see the uneaten brine. (barely can see the fry lol) Hopefully with the larger tank and several water changes I can keep the the water quality good enough from them. Im also using the water from the parents tank mixing it with some fresh water for my changes. I also dont feed them a lot which should help in water quality. Next time ill switch to a bare tank.

How old should they be when I try to introduce them larger food such as crushed flake food. (probably use BLS flake 50% protein) thanks again


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## steve617 (Nov 10, 2003)

Another week has passed and they are close to a month old including the time in the shell. (3 weeks in the 30 long) Im still feeding live bbs 3 times a day. Im very careful not to feed too much. Just wish they were more active. They sit on the bottom and ocassionaly move to another spot. On ocassions I can see one swim across the tank. Also wish they would eat more. Just seem to pick around. I have been trying to introduce them to crushed NLS flake food. I can see a little growth so I guess they are eating. I'm doing about 30 % water changes twice a week. Still have them in the 30 long with a AC30 turned down (has filter floss around the intake) and a sponge filter. I did count 15 this morning so *** not seen any losses since the first week.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

What is your nitrate level? I'm hoping Russ will chime in, but my experience with juvenile and adult altos, and what I've read from others' experience, is that more frequent, smaller water changes are best. 30% twice a week sounds great for the Tangs I've bred and raised, but I wonder if you'd see quicker growth and more activity if you were to do 25% three times a week.

I had higher fry survival rates in tanks with substrate. I've got a few guesses as to why (biofilter, foraging, and camouflaging functions), but no solid evidence. It's easy enough to clean substrate in fry tanks with a turkey baster, or a siphon hose draining into a bucket for the occasional fry that gets sucked up.


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## steve617 (Nov 10, 2003)

Thanks for reply. Well checked nitrates and the were high 80 ppm however amonia was just about .1. Well between 0 and .25. I did a 25% water change and changed my prefilter going to the ac30. Thanks for the details in your post.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Hmm... I'd do 25% WC daily until you get your ammonia gone (I'm guessing it's from rotting food) and your nitrates under 10 ppm. Today, if you have time, do another water change just to get rid of as much uneaten food and ammonia as possible right away. Also- turn up your AC30. They should be strong enough now to handle the current and you need the higher flow rate to get through the water quality problems.


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## steve617 (Nov 10, 2003)

Thanks since i cleaned the prefilter i have on the ac30 and ill get the flow going better. Ill test the nitrates later. They are very active when i place my hand near them and ocassionally ill see them swim to point a to point b. Just not as active as i thought they should be. I am very careful not to overfeed them.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

triscuit said:


> What is your nitrate level? I'm hoping Russ will chime in, but my experience with juvenile and adult altos, and what I've read from others' experience, is that more frequent, smaller water changes are best. 30% twice a week sounds great for the Tangs I've bred and raised, but I wonder if you'd see quicker growth and more activity if you were to do 25% three times a week.
> 
> I had higher fry survival rates in tanks with substrate. I've got a few guesses as to why (biofilter, foraging, and camouflaging functions), but no solid evidence. It's easy enough to clean substrate in fry tanks with a turkey baster, or a siphon hose draining into a bucket for the occasional fry that gets sucked up.


Yes, I would do water changes every other day for the first two months. +1 environmental enrichment.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

steve617 said:


> Thanks for reply. Well checked nitrates and the were high 80 ppm however amonia was just about .1. Well between 0 and .25. I did a 25% water change and changed my prefilter going to the ac30. Thanks for the details in your post.


Hey Steve,

Nitrates 80ppm and ammonia readings??? I need to go back and reread this thread - I am missing something? Why do you have both ammonia and nitrates readings? Ammonia should be zero.

Nitrates at 80ppm is not good (actually very bad for altolamps). You are very fortunate all of your fry are not dead.

I will have to reread the earlier replies - have seen them since my lats post.

Russ


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

triscuit said:


> Hmm... I'd do 25% WC daily until you get your ammonia gone (I'm guessing it's from rotting food) and your nitrates under 10 ppm. Today, if you have time, do another water change just to get rid of as much uneaten food and ammonia as possible right away. Also- turn up your AC30. They should be strong enough now to handle the current and you need the higher flow rate to get through the water quality problems.


I would also suggest a couple SeaChem products:
1) A dose of Prime to knock down Nitrates.
2) Stability to re-enforce your good bacteria and cycle the tank.

I would syphon up any uneaten food 1 hour after feedings.

Hope this helps Steve!

Russ


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## steve617 (Nov 10, 2003)

I did do a wc and already added the prime checked the nitrates and shows 40 ppm. Ill do another one tomorrow.


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## steve617 (Nov 10, 2003)

Russ and Triscuit hiw often do you feed your comp fry. *** been doing 3 times a day. How about the adult comps. I feed them just a little twice a day. Mainly NLS grow for the adults. And live bbs for fry. Thanks


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Feeding three times a day is great, but in very small quantities and you can get in there and siphon up uneaten food. Adults I feed only once a day, usually, and then skip a day here and there. I always do my best to keep nitrates below 20ppm before water changes, and below 10ppm after.

Ammonia and nitrates happen when the filtration is inadequate. This tank has a functioning biofilter, but it's not getting enough circulation or doesn't have enough biomedia to handle the bioload. Actaully- what do you have stuffed in your AC30? I recommend the big sponge, then a bag of biomedia (I like the cheap stuff, though I'm sure Fluval and Ehiem make higher quality biomedia), and topped with filter floss. All three of those filter media can support bacterial colonies. If you have carbon in you filter, throw it out to make more room for biomedia.

A note- Prime doesn't "knock down nitrates"... but it can help bind ammonia/nitrite. I would recommend 2 water changes daily until you get a zero ammonia reading; have you checked nitrites?


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## steve617 (Nov 10, 2003)

Thanks in the ac30 i have the sponge plus a piece of the blue bond. Also have a small bag of crush coral for buffer. I also am running a sponge filter. Oh on the ac 30 i was jsing a cutoff filter sock as a prefilter. Mainly to keep from sucking the babies. Part of the issue as you metioned i had the filter turned way down.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

triscuit said:


> Feeding three times a day is great, but in very small quantities and you can get in there and siphon up uneaten food. Adults I feed only once a day, usually, and then skip a day here and there. I always do my best to keep nitrates below 20ppm before water changes, and below 10ppm after.
> 
> Ammonia and nitrates happen when the filtration is inadequate. This tank has a functioning biofilter, but it's not getting enough circulation or doesn't have enough biomedia to handle the bioload. Actaully- what do you have stuffed in your AC30? I recommend the big sponge, then a bag of biomedia (I like the cheap stuff, though I'm sure Fluval and Ehiem make higher quality biomedia), and topped with filter floss. All three of those filter media can support bacterial colonies. If you have carbon in you filter, throw it out to make more room for biomedia.
> 
> A note- Prime doesn't "knock down nitrates"... but it can help bind ammonia/nitrite. I would recommend 2 water changes daily until you get a zero ammonia reading; have you checked nitrites?


Excellent advice. I didn't know that Prime would not reduce nitrates (thanks).

triscuit, wouldn't trace ammonia levels be necessary to reboot the cycling process?


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

steve617 said:


> Thanks in the ac30 i have the sponge plus a piece of the blue bond. Also have a small bag of crush coral for buffer. I also am running a sponge filter. Oh on the ac 30 i was jsing a cutoff filter sock as a prefilter. Mainly to keep from sucking the babies. Part of the issue as you metioned i had the filter turned way down.


Steve,

I use a prefilter (Filter max kit) on the intakes of my HOB filters. Or any filter with a round intake tube. This helps keep young fry from getting sucked up the intake tube. It also adds an extra level of mechanical filtration to help keep waste from reaching your bio media. I clean these sponge pre-filters at every water change. Actually, I remove the soiled filter and put on a clean one. The soiled filter then gets cleaned in the utility sink and left to soak in scalding hot water in prep for its next turn in the fry tank.

Here's a pic. This is a ten gallon Muzi gold head fry tank. No substrate to make it easier to siphon uneaten food. The rocks are for environmental stimulation and also serve as extra porous surface area for good bacteria to colonize.


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## steve617 (Nov 10, 2003)

Thanks russ thats what i need. Ill have to look for them. How old are the muzis in that pick. Whats hard is since i have white sand i cant see the dead baby brine shrimp. When i had angelfish in a bare tank it was easy to see them to syphon them out.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

steve617 said:


> Thanks russ thats what i need. Ill have to look for them. How old are the muzis in that pick. Whats hard is since i have white sand i cant see the dead baby brine shrimp. When i had angelfish in a bare tank it was easy to see them to syphon them out.


I order mine from Jehmco (a Cichlid-forum sponsor). John or Jean will answer the phone, tell them you want the Filter Max III Pre-Filter kit. Order some extra sponges for it. I like to very fine filter. It get's clogged quicker but that is what you want in a fry tank. I would rather the pre-filter catch most of the **** and not have it make its way to my bio media.

I would get a small size diameter siphon tube and siphon out the substrate (get rid of). Start at one end and scare the fry away from that end and then start sucking up the substrate into a white five gallon bucket. The white bucket will make fry easy to see if you suck a couple up.

Size??? this is just a guess. Possibly 3/4"??? I do recall that it took eight months to get a batch of Muzi to 3/4" and that was with water changes every other day and power feedings.

Sometime after the first month, I would start reducing the number of BBS feedings and start introducing a staple flake. My staple flake was 1/3 HBH Meat Lovers Flake, 1/3 freeze dried krill fines, & 1/3 freeze dried mysis. I would mask each ingredient up into, almost a powder, using a pestle and mortar. You could also mash up some NLS grow and maybe add some spirulina flake. By two months, I start to eliminate the BBS and feed the staple flake. BTW: the HBH flake, FD krill fines, FD mysis are all purchased from jehmco too.

Russ


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## steve617 (Nov 10, 2003)

First thanks both for all the info. With my work schedule i fed them at 5 am. I turun their lights on about 4.40 while im getting ready for work which alao allows time to get the live bbs ready to harvest. Wife turns lights off about 7.30. After i got home at 3.00 i fed them again at 3.15 pm. A group of them about half were together went crazy after the brine. I did see all eat. Anyway i ran my test during this time and nitrates were 40 ppm. After about 45 mins i syphoned along the bottom covering probably 75%. Taking about 4 gallons. I just replaced the water so im sure it will be better. Fyi im probably using about 80% of the tank leaving about 2 inches from top. Ill test again in a couple hours. Thanks again.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Is your ammonia gone? Have you tested for nitrites? I'm glad they're eating and active- that's a good sign!



> triscuit, wouldn't trace ammonia levels be necessary to reboot the cycling process?


Reboot? I'm not sure I understand.

But I can say that _measurable _ammonia is a very different thing than _trace _amounts of ammonia. Our analytical capacity at home is severely limited, but good enough to alert us when the problem is bad. Any measurable ammonia is harmful to our fish and should be immediately addressed.

The second way I can try to answer your question is that Steve's biofilter doesn't need to be "rebooted". He's got a population of beneficial bacteria (hence the nitrate) but there's too much food for them (hence the ammonia). Cut down on the food (vacuum out the old food), and increase the population of bacteria (more biomedia, higher flow rate), and I wouldn't be surprised if the ammonia problem is solved instantly.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

triscuit said:


> Is your ammonia gone? Have you tested for nitrites? I'm glad they're eating and active- that's a good sign!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks triscuit. So he is just overloading his current good bacteria. Makes sense.

Thanks again,
Russ


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## steve617 (Nov 10, 2003)

This morning i added biomax to the filter. I would think that would be helpful. Ill do another water change when i get home and will do all the water tests.


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## steve617 (Nov 10, 2003)

Fed them when i got home and as usual i try to count them for some reason i have more than what i thought. Have about 22 or 23 of them. All eating good. Not checked water yet will do another small water change after they eat. Has to be a good sign.


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## steve617 (Nov 10, 2003)

Here is a video I made yesterday at feeding time, video was before I did the water change and vacuumed substrate. Oh yes it is a mirror background.


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## steve617 (Nov 10, 2003)

After water change today nitrates 30 ammonia and nitrites 0. Will do another water change tomorrow.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Sounds good- you're getting there.


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## steve617 (Nov 10, 2003)

Just an update after doing about 5 water changes last week we finally got things going the right direction. The fry have been in the 30 long for about 1 month now. Have not lost any since week 1. Since they are more active I've found that I have more babies than I thought. Looks to be like 25 of them. Today *** gone from feeding live BBS 3 times a day to twice a day. Plus *** started them today on crushed NLS Grow formula. They are defiently growing and are active. thanks for all the advice.


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