# Same old topic...Nitrogen cycle...but please help!



## Ronzo (Sep 8, 2013)

Forum; 
I'm new here...but I certainly think I'm in the right place...my goal is to have a tank with firemouth cichlids and maybe Juriparis (both beautiful, fairly gentle species) and maybe breed them eventually...but I'm having real trouble getting (re)started...

...I want to set up my 55g this July after being out of the hobby for 20 years. I cleaned and (sterilized?) tank and everything going into it with salted water (no bleach) and boiled all pea sized gravel and rocks. Filter is a new HOB Emperer 400 (because of the new, groovy, beneficial biowheels), airpump is the old two output Whisper 700. I set up the tank before finding out about the nitrogen cycle (admittedly my mistake - but heck, I didn't know anything about it twenty years ago, and kept fish just fine). A week after adding water, I added a bunch of feeder gold fish (the wife bought them with little protest from me (I figured they would "get all the biological processes going in the tank), these goldfish did fine for a week or two, but I gave most of them back (after finding out what little ammonia factories they are), and lost the rest to ammonia poisoning (I bought ammonia and Nitrate test kits at that point)...I also added a few firemouths at that time, and that's when I started researching and learning about the nitrogen cycle/new tank syndrome etc. At this point, I have no fish in the tank, but the ammonia continues to stay at around 2ppm (zero nitrites, nitrates)...

...I just cant seem to get the nitrogen cycle going...I've added Prime and Special Blend (stinky bacteria cultures) to try and establish the nitrifying cultures with no luck...all fish I initially added are unfortunately dead and gone after looking good but after a week or two, suffering miserably I suppose (which I feel pretty bad about)...but I just cant keep doing 50% WC every week to get the ammonia down...as I understand it, the nitrifying bacteria are supposed to do that! I've read a number of articles and seen all the YT vids, and had a long talk with the (40 year) highly experienced owner of a LFS, and he had no specific explanation...just said don't do water changes and keep waiting til ammonia goes down from the cycle stabilizing...but it just doesn't...it's been weeks and the ammonia just doesn't decrease, which leads me to believe I have no nitrogen cycle...the tank has been set up for THREE MONTHS NOW but I dare not add any other fish...temp is mid 70s, ph is mid 6s, I use municipal water which comes out of the tap at high 6s pH, and I always add Stress Coat to it before adding to tank, tank is crystal clear and looks great (I've never cleaned biowheels, clean media only with tank water, and I also added Marineland zeolite to filter to try to keep ammonia in check), but I dare not add any fish at this point because tank remains toxic, and I just cant do major WC every week!! ...I had the tank setup for ten years twenty years ago, never knowing of any "Nitrogen Cycle", and I never tested for Ammonia, Nitrites, or Nitrates at that time...just did periodic 50% WC/gravel washes and fishies did great...so I though I new at least a little about fish keeping...but it seems I don't know squat...I'm pretty discouraged at this point...yes I've made some mistakes, but I'm trying to do it right at this point, and willing to learn...so I welcome any thoughts and help (I'm capable of following specific instruction, but please include explanations, so I can understand what I have done wrong and what to do OR NOT do in the future!).

What do I do? break down the tank entirely, resterilize everything and start over with a fishless cycle as described here, or is there anything I can do without starting over? Thanks for any help...I'm ready to learn...I'm not a kid, but feel like somewhat of a newbie...

Ron


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Your low pH is likely the culprit. Optimum pH for nitrifying bacteria growth is in the 7.3-8.0 pH range. At 6.5 and lower, growth is inhibited.
I'd begin testing for the correct dosage of baking soda to enable a slight rise in pH, say to 7.0-7.2. Use a 5g bucket along with dechlorinated tap water. Start off with a teaspoon of baking soda and test pH 1-2 hours later. Once you've achieve the correct dosage for the desired increase in pH, convert this to a 55g dosage and begin testing as you did with the bucket. You may also want to purchase a KH tester (API makes one) which can be useful in determining how well your buffered water will hold the desired pH.
Some background info:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/f ... _cycle.php
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/w ... mistry.php


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## SupeDM (Jan 26, 2009)

Another option is to get a filter from someone near you or from a lfs. could even get some gravel from LFS put it in a nylon bag and drop it in tank. When setting up a new tank i usualy pull a sponge filter off an established aquarium and run it in the new one for a while.


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## Ronzo (Sep 8, 2013)

Thanks for replies. I reread parts of Tim Craig's article on Fishless Cycling and I do see the recommended pH range as around neutral. I have adjusted Ph to 7.2 using Sodium Bicarb. I'm still reading around 2ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrite, 0ppm nitrate. I have also read about seeding the nitrifying bacteria from an established tank, but can I add Prime or Special Blend to accomplish the same thing?


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## yellowhighlighter (Sep 10, 2013)

I can't speak about Special Blend, but Prime won't help your Nitrogen cycle. It will, however, remove chlorine and temporarily convert ammonia into ammonium. This conversion will last between 24 and 48 hours. As long as your tank is empty, there is no need to add Prime. Seachem claims that the conversion of ammonia to ammonium does not slow down the cycle because the bacteria can consume ammonium and convert it to nitrites and I have no reason to doubt that. But, like I said, you don't have any fish at risk, so don't waste the money.

I strongly suggest you try Dr. Tim's One and Only. I battled with the nitrogen cycle for over a month with 18 cichlids in a 60 gallon tank. I added filter material from a friend's tank. I tried API Quick Start and Tetra SafeStart. Although they may have helped, my tank was cycled 1 week after adding a double dose of One and Only.


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## Ronzo (Sep 8, 2013)

yhl; Thanks for your input also...I just did a water test and tank is still(!) at 2ppm ammonia, 0,nitrite,nitrate, 7.2pH....so I have no cycle...that much is clear...but I am at a pH which should allow it...I thought the Prime and SPB products added the beneficial bacteria...is this not right? What is the diff between these and Dr. Tim"s. Cheers from Connecticut!


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Products claiming to provide bacteria for both salt and fresh water aren't likely to work due to the fact that the bacteria are different for each application.
The two products with a reputation for actually performing what they claim are Dr. Tim's One and Only and Tetra SafeStart.
Seachem Prime is a conditioner which detoxifies chlorine, chloramine, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.


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## yellowhighlighter (Sep 10, 2013)

Ronzo said:


> 7.2pH....so I have no cycle...that much is clear...but I am at a pH which should allow it


I try to keep the pH between 7.8 and 8 and my Peacocks and Haps told me they like it that way. pH has a tendency to decline over time. Aquarium salts act as a buffer and will help keep the pH at a constant level.

Small daily water changes (10%) will not delay the cycle process and there is some evidence that they can shorten the cycle by a day, or two. I wish I could cite my source, but I don't have the information handy. The appropriate Google search should provide this information.


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## Ronzo (Sep 8, 2013)

yhl;
7.8 -8.0!!...holy basic water batman!...that is a lot higher than is called for for SA Cichlids, and off the bottom end of the testkit chart!

As far as small WC go, I do these already typically, because I water houseplants with tank water, then replace it with tap water (plus a dash of Stress Coat)...as far as shortening cycle by "a day or two"...heck, it's been two weeks(!) and nothing has changed on the water tests...I guess the next step is to get some Dr. Tim's and try that...what are recommended sources?


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## yellowhighlighter (Sep 10, 2013)

Ronzo said:


> yhl; 7.8 -8.0!!...holy basic water batman!...that is a lot higher than is called for for SA Cichlids, and off the bottom end of the testkit chart!


Sorry. I keep Peacocks and Haps. It slipped my mind that you don't. Disregard my advice.



Ronzo said:


> as far as shortening cycle by "a day or two"...heck, it's been two weeks(!) and nothing has changed on the water tests...I guess the next step is to get some Dr. Tim's and try that...what are recommended sources?


My first recommendation is to get it from a local source. Since the bacteria is intolerant of extremely high, or extremely low, temeratures, shipping may not provide the best environment, unless it is shipped overnight, which can be cost prohibitive.
If you can't find it locally, try Dr. Tim's website (http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/). Amazon is an option, Drs. Foster and Smith's website is an option.
Even a fishless cycle can take quite some time. Be patient and diligent and it will pay off.


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## Ronzo (Sep 8, 2013)

yhl; ...I found Dr. Tim's site and he does say the right things which seem to apply to my situation...he does prefer a high(er than neutral) pH for establishing the cycle...and he certainly does seem to have done his homework on the subject...I plan to use his mix, after increasing the pH, then back the pH down to something more optimal for the SA cichlids...and I also see from his write-up how important temperature is for the bacteriological shipment...I will contact them through the site and get some of their product...can I take from this that the Prime and SpB product I have tried on the tank were likely uneffective because the bacteria were dead from storage issues (like unknown/long shelf life or possibly excessive temperature)? Cheers and thanks again!


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## yellowhighlighter (Sep 10, 2013)

Prime is a water conditioner. It eliminates chlorine and converts ammonia to ammonium, which is harmless to fish. It does not contain the necessary bacteria to start, or promote a cycle. I don't have any experience with Special Blend, but based on what I read, it is also a water conditioner that degrades organic waste. The product description I read doesn't mention starting or promoting a nitrogen cycle.

I suspect both of these products can play a role in maintaining a healthy aquarium. In fact, I use Prime every time I do a water change. But as far as starting or promoting the nitrogen cycle is concerned, they are ineffective.


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## Ronzo (Sep 8, 2013)

Update;

Since my last post, I did not add Dr. Tim's but made contact with the owner/operator of an area LFS which I have dealt with for some 40 years (I have known him, trust his experience, and want to support him when possible). I related all detailed tank history and info to him, and after answering some further detail questions (like if I might be contaminating the tank by using glass-cleaner on the outside with overspray or medicated cream on my hands (I'm not!) or other remote possibilities), he said he didn't know why I couldn't get my nitrogen cycle started...he does know of Dr Tim's, but does not carry it, and said that he believes Tetra SafeStart works better...whenever they set up a tank for a Dr's office or somewhere where they basically set it up and leave (not being able to monitor as often as a private tank owner might), they use this product with the desired result. Product does state in Ingredients that it contains the right bacteria.

Tetra SafeStart (Ingredients: Purified water, Proprietary strains of Nitrosomonas, Nitrosospira nand Nitrospira)

Per his advice, I bought an 8.45 Oz bottle. I performed a major WC (70%) to reduce the 2ppm ammonia level to around 1ppm, then dosed the tank (including the filter biowheels) several times but I am still reading a non-changing 1-2ppm Ammonia and have NEVER seen a Nitrite peak OR Nitrate rise, which leads me be to believe I STILL don't have the right bacterialogical action, and therefore no cycle! If I understand this correctly, a working cycle would convert all occurring ammonia to nitrite, then nitrate right? Ph is steady at 6.8 -7.0. Temp is in the mid 70's. I have "fed the fishless tank" 10-15 3mm cichlid pellets two times in the past two weeks in order to make ammonia to feed the cycle. I have not added liquid ammonia of any type.

He did say that he has heard of problems like this when reusing "old gravel", and that is what I have used...but I did boil all of it in salted water for a few minutes each batch before adding it to tank...I did add some "old" pieces of slate which I didn't boil, only cleaned in the sink...could this be an issue?..if so, by what mechanism?

The fact that I have NEVER measured nitrites or nitrates leads me to believe my tank is still not ready for fish. Tank is crystal clear and looks great but I am leery of adding fish before I can confirm a working cycle. I invite comments and insights...please help!

Cheers from Connecticut!


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

How old is your test kit? What is it? Try some test strips or take a sample into a store, something to compare your readings to. Eliminate a possibly faulty test kit, if you haven't already that is. 
How long ago did you dose with SafeStart? How often are you dosing with Prime or any other additive besides ammonia and baking soda?
I assume you missed my recommendation for Dr. Tim's or Tetra SafeStart.


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