# Brought two angelfish home...



## NonstickRon (Oct 7, 2008)

Put the bag in the tank to acclimate temperature and went out to lunch. Came back to put the fish in the tank and the one angelfish ate most of the other ones side fins off. It's barely got anything left to flap, its flapping them like crazy trying to hold still in the water...they're pretty much nubs. Is the fish a goner? They're both about 3 inch fish.


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## heylady (Oct 14, 2004)

Not necessarily. Is there any way you can divide the tank so the injured one will be able to heal on it's own? Or perhaps you have another tank handy?

Ummm...I hate to ask this and forgive me if I'm wrong but are you new to the hobby? It's never a good idea to leave the house when you're acclimating fish. Also, it's more than just equalizing the temperature between the tank and bag. You're supposed to put in some tank water every 10 to 15 minutes to equalize the pH too. This should be done at least twice before releasing the fish into the tank. AND, if you know that the stores' water has large differences with your own water (pH, gh, etc) it should take even longer!! Example: if the store has city water and you have well water. Or if you are using tap water and you are buying fish that have been living in a low pH like discus.

How big is this tank? Is it cycled?


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## NonstickRon (Oct 7, 2008)

These are my first 'semi-aggressive' fish. The tank is a 55 gallon with several large amazon sword plants throughout, they're hanging out in opposite sides of the tank. And yes, I know about acclimating the ph as well, but when I got home and noticed what had happened I was more worried about just separating them. The ph of the water from the store isn't much different than mine luckily.

Been looking up about fin regrowth, a lot of places online say as long as the spines aren't damage, but they are. The one side only has about 1/4 of an inch of fin left. The other side about 1/2 inch.


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## heylady (Oct 14, 2004)

Okay, I've read your other posts.

So your tank is cycled but you have ich? Flashing fish and white dots on the fins?? You should know that just because you don't see the parasite doesn't mean that it's gone. The life cycle is such that part of it lives as a cyst on the substrate/decor until it bursts and releases more into your tank. So you have now infected the angels too. It's going to be really important that you don't add anymore fish until the ich is gone. What are you doing to combat it? Heat and salt? Be careful of salt with the fish you have as tetras are not very salt tolerant. Remember that when water evaporates only pure water is taken not anything within the water. So when you top off don't add salt to the make up water.

Good luck


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## NonstickRon (Oct 7, 2008)

Yes, temp is steady at 91F and I have been using 1tblspn of salt per 5 gallon jug which is a light dose compared to the 1-2 tblspn per gallon most things I've read recommend. I do a 10 gallon water change a couple times a week. I think the flashing I noticed yesterday was just coincidence and I was overreacting...I've been staring at the tank for hours now and haven't witnessed any whereas yesterday I had been walking by it a few times and noticed a couple fish flash within a few minutes of each other.

Thanks for the input.

I agree, no more fish...I wouldn't have gotten the angels today but my wife didn't want me to get a refund for the fish I was taking back cause its obvious the guy is having a hard time with his business, shop had burned down and hes operating out of his breeding vats behind it while he rebuilds.

Got another tab open and its recommending Melafix for the fin damage. Do you concur? I could go get some.


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## heylady (Oct 14, 2004)

A lot of people like Melafix. I tried it a long time ago and it didn't seem to do much. I don't know maybe they've changed their formula since then. But for me, I'd rather just do a few extra water changes. Fish can heal amazingly well when their water is clean.

Just my 2Â¢


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## ginner (May 23, 2008)

You've already had some great advice in this thread but I just wanted to add that IMO yes, this fish can recover. I'd recommend a divider and otherwise just maintaining a good, healthy tank. Angels are tough and will bounce back if they have the right conditions and it sounds as though you're doing the right stuff.


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## NonstickRon (Oct 7, 2008)

For some reason the injured fish has started hanging about the other one and yes, the dominant one is taking swipes at it. I'll do a search on deviders and see what I can come up with. I have some plexi-sheets but I'm not sure how to afix in place, plus how do you keep the filter circulating with the tank devided?


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Many dividers are perferated, allowing water to flow through, but not allowing the fish to do more than touch noses.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Once things ick wise settle down, might look at a few more angels ... defuses the aggression. Two angels almost always become one angel IME ... I always did the 6 or more angel approach when breeding them, blind dates with angels never worked with me.


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## NonstickRon (Oct 7, 2008)

Yes, I plan to order 4 Altum Angels from azgardens as soon as I have a spare $100 +shipping. (**** holiday season!) They're what I originally had my sights set on. I returned those other cichlid's though and the guy only sells cichlid's he breeds himself so regular angels were pretty much my only option for trade.

I was under the impression 6 angels is the limit in a 55 gallon.


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## heylady (Oct 14, 2004)

You'll be lucky to keep 2 in a 55g. Especially altum angels which get much, much bigger than scalare angels. They are more delicate too so you will have to be sure that your tank is in good shape beforehand. Angels are cichlids and they will fight. Endlessly. I have never been able to keep more than one pair (scalare) in a 55g. I'm not an expert on angels but I have kept them ever since I've been in the hobby - 10yrs - and I did raise a few batches so I have some experience....but then again, I may have just had unusually aggressive angels too :wink:

You can make a cheap divider from the lighting diffuser (eggcrate) material that you can buy at any home improvement store. Cut them to size with a wire cutter. You can put large decor on the bottom to hold it steady and use one of those lock ties things from the top of the diffuser to the center brace to steady it up there. The diffusers have grids so the water will pass through them no problem. Small fish can go through too. I would put one up in your tank until the hurt angel is better. This will also be an advantage in that each angel will establish it's own territory so even if the fish don't get along they should be able to share the tank without too many problems.


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## NonstickRon (Oct 7, 2008)

I got some of that stuff. Just stuck the devider in. Anchored it down by running the bubble strip through it. Its not rock steady but I think its good enough for angelfish. Theres a gap along the top and the bottom big enough for my other fish to swim over/under but the angels are too big.

Good to know about altum angels. Hard to find much info on them. Guess I'll stick to regular ones. So one pair eh? Guy at a LFS near me has (in a much bigger tank to be sure) about 10 discus and 10 angels and they say they have no aggression problems. Fish don't look chewed on so I kinda believe him. Maybe I just got a mean one.

So are we talking months till I can take the tank divider out?


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Oh I'd believe there is no aggression either, they are too overcrowded to be able to pick out a single fish and keep a constant harassment up on it.

I've been able to keep two pair in 55 myself, but again they paired naturally out of a group of 10 baby angels. Now I wouldn't keep angels in a 55, I consider it too short and not wide enough for full size adults. I prefer 90's for that reason for normal angels, even taller tanks for altums.

Good idea on passing on the altums, many consider them harder to keep than wild caught discus. Plus mixing the two species isn't a good idea in any case. :thumb:


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## NonstickRon (Oct 7, 2008)

Hmm...some of this advice is starting to seem conflicting to me. Don't have too many angels, cause they'll fight, but if you have too many...they won't fight. Seems like when I had a 10 gallon everyone was telling me to get a 55 cause then I could keep just about anything in it, now that I have a 55...its not really big enough for much more than I was keeping in the ten gallon.

/me sigh


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Not really. People do overstock to avoid aggression ... while it mainly works with lake malawi cichlids, people do it to centrals a lot with the big boys for the same reason. You could stuff 12 angels in there and not have problems, but the tank would need a water change a day.

Overstocked to avoid aggression usually means more stress, though less aggression. More stress means more water changes to avoid the diseases stress brings. So if you are motivated and don't have to pay for water, you could overcrowd the angels.

I, however, am lazy. I like only doing one water change a week. Thus I wouldn't overcrowd to prevent the aggression. Also remember angels are social cichlids, and are found in groups in nature until they pair off to breed.


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## heylady (Oct 14, 2004)

Yes you can overcrowd them to avoid the one fish being picked on but then you have the stress of being overcrowded. IMO angels don't do stress very well. And when one gets sickly from the stress the rest will gang up on it. 
Which is why I've never kept more than one pair to a 55g. I don't know, maybe I've always picked out aggressive fish. I do know that when my pair were guarding eggs, they had half the tank and all the other fish had to stay on the other side.

It's true they are social when young but once they start breeding they lose any manners they may have had and turn into little devils! And they breed constantly so....


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## NonstickRon (Oct 7, 2008)

SO the proper number of angels, when no pairs are evident, to avoid fighting is 1 or how many? 4, 6, 10, 20? My devider isnt' working. The wounded one is getting over the top of my devider somehow..going to have to figure something else out...it's got some kinda deathwish.

After I get the one healed up, won't the other one just go after it and start this process all over? Should I just let them sort it out and hope the one doesn't die? Should I get more or ditch the angels altogether?

My friend with discus has been trying to talk me into getting those, but I've balked at the price. After all I'm learning about angels, the discus are starting to look a lot more appealing.


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## heylady (Oct 14, 2004)

I wouldn't get rid of the angels, they make an awesome centerpiece fish and are beautiful to watch.  No instead rig up the divider so the one can't get over to the other side. Let the fish heal up and when everything is good take down the divider and they should be able to work things out. If they are a true pair then they will be happy together. If they are both female, they may hang out together only going on their own to lay eggs every once in awhile. Two males may stake out territory on each end of the tank. But the divider will help the injured fish to recover and establish itself in the tank. 
I've used this technique for much more aggressive fish than angels and it works 99% of the time.


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## NonstickRon (Oct 7, 2008)

The guy I bought them from recommended adding 6 silver dollar sized angels to the mix, when called him today.

I'm considering taking out the dominant one and taking it to work for a sebatical in "the hole" for a week or so. A 7 gallon bowfront tank with serpae tetras in it.


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## heylady (Oct 14, 2004)

I wouldn't put six more angels in there!! Not only because it probably won't work in the long run but you still have the ich issue to deal with. Even if you aren't seeing any ich parasites you shouldn't add any fish to the tank until you are sure it's gone. Which is also why you shouldn't move the one angel to your tank at work. You will infect the fish there too. Not to mention that 7g's is way too small for an angel.

Be patient. Things will work out. The one angel will be healed before you know it. Keep up with the water changes so everyone will be nice and healthy. Once the fish has healed take down the divider and go from there.


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## NonstickRon (Oct 7, 2008)

So its official...Jaws the Great White angelfish, is a killer. 4 fish are missing, dug around in the tank and found 2 corpses. Plants were dying so I've lowered the temp from 92 to 86.


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