# Ready to give up



## ryan1423 (Oct 24, 2009)

Alright I need some help here. I have killed several fish since setting up my tank a few months ago. Im trying to do a Mbuna tank and I think I got the right fish. Not sure on the names really. I dont know what to do! My water is fine and I do 25% to 50% water changes every week. I have a good filter and change the cartridge and loose media once a month. The tank is 38 gallons and the most fish I had at one time was six. I constantly monitor the temp and keep it at 78. I have real and fake rocks for the fish and have about an inch of gravel for the substrate. No plants. I also have two air lines which I keep on a very low setting. Im at my wits end here and could use some help. One fish is holding on but not eating a lot. I have also tried various foods. I want to understand this stuff and get the tank healthy before I get anymore fish.


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## larry.beck (Jul 31, 2009)

Ryan - two questions. When you say "my water is fine" do you mean the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels? Can you tell us the levels of those readings? Also, can you tell us about the behavior of the fish before they died? Were they hiding? Eating well? Did they appear "fat"? Any signs of disease?

As for fish selection, check out the cookie cutter setups to help you make your selections.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/quick_reference_list.php


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

You are also saying that you change the cartridge and loose media every month. That alone may be causing your problems because you are removing all of the beneficial bacteria from your filters. This causes your tank to try and re-cycle, or grow more bacteria. When that happens, ammonia and nitrite rise and are toxic to the fish. Get yourself a test kit(API is commonly suggested) so you know what your water parameters really are. You should just remove and rinse the media in old tank water or other dechlorinated water. It will last a long time.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

*DrgRcr*


> That alone may be causing your problems because you are removing all of the beneficial bacteria from your filters


this is a completely untrue statement

i do this every month and never have issues, i also know for a fact that not all of my bacteria is in my filter, and as long as you have some bacteria somewhere else in your tank then they will quickly reproduce to handle the load and you should not have any issues

aside from having a properly cycled tank as larry was on the right track trying to figure out whether you cycled your tank and to find out if there are any health issues

but another very obvious question is what are you tank dimensons? these are mbuna and i would bet to guess your tank is too small for them

holding females do not eat, plain and simple, so that is nothing to worry about unless they were weak beforehand then it may cause issues, just make sure that once she spits, you feed her plenty to recoop

i also would assume that since you have a fish that is holding, you probably don't have water issues

also what fish do you have? and what is the M/F ration of each species


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## steelers fan (Jun 26, 2009)

hey whats up ryan.
couple questions to narrow down suggestions.

as cj asked...waht are the tank measurements, what is your entire stocklist.

if the tank has been set up for a few months im guessing its cycled but what are your parameters; ph, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.

mbuna are easy to care for as long as the numbers and species are ok. its ok if you dont know the names...how about the look of them can you describe them or look through the profiles and try to narrow it down.

how where the fish acting previous to their death...fins nice and full?, fish retreating to one spot maybe in a corner?, color ok or white blotches or scrapes?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

if he's keeping dems i can tell you right away what the problem is haha


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## ryan1423 (Oct 24, 2009)

You guys must think Im retarded. I kinda just dove into this not knowing much so I probably am retarded. I test the water regularly and although Im not sure on the exact numbers, the levels are safe according to the color chart. Tank dimensions look to be about 36" wide and 12" deep and 18" high. Im not good with the scientific names of fish yet but I know I had some electric yellows and blues, a red zebra, and two that I ordered from Live fish direct: Pseudotropheus sp. "Elongatus Chewere" and Pseudotropheus sp. "Perspicax Orange Cap" Red Top Ndumbi. The Red Top is the only one left. The fish that died never looked diseased but they did hide a lot. Hopefully this info will be enough so you guys can help me out. I really want to keep at this and know I need to get more info first before going on, something I should have done in the first place! Thanks guys!


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

You're by no means 'retarded' for making a couple mistakes on your way in. Most people take the advice of your local fish store (LFS) clerk and trust they will steer you in the right direction. But most people unfortunately learn this is all to often not the case.

I'm not well versed in the African Rift Lake Cichlids, so I'll let others chime in with details, but in general it does sound like the tank was to small for the fish you wanted to keep and they likely killed each other. Sometimes the fish will die of excessive stress from being terrorized even if they have not been "murdered".


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## larry.beck (Jul 31, 2009)

Ryan - I'm sure no one thinks you're retarded. For starters, most everyone here has lost fish for one reason or another. The important thing is that you're here trying to learn how to make it a better experience for next time, and I think everyone here appreciates and respects that.

Your tank is a little small for many species of cichlids, and it sounds like you may have had some aggression issues in your tank. I'd suggest you start by taking a look a the cookie cutter setups for your tank size - these are combinations specification designed to work well together.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/quick_reference_list.php

You can use the profiles to see what each of the recommended species look like and see how they match up to what you like.

From your original group, I believe the elongatus family tends to be fairly aggressive (I don't own any of those so I'm not positive) and the red zebras can be quite bossy as well. The yellow labs are some of the most docile mbunas out there.

After you take a look why don't you post what you're thinking about getting and get some feedback from the group here. They're great, I assure you. I'm still working on getting my stocking right, with the help from many people here.


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## steelers fan (Jun 26, 2009)

hey ryan. so with the mix you had in that size tank the issue was most likely aggression related. fish will get bullied to the point that stress kills them. you can do some *mbuna* in that tank which is what it seems like you were shooting for*(rock dwelling lake malawi cichlids from africa)*. these fish are easy to own with the right setup and numbers. along with the cookie cutter set-up take a look at the profiles section and the library for mbuna tank set-up articles. you can do a dwarf mbuna species tank like saulosi or cynotilapia afra cobue in the proper male/female ratios. both these species are di-morphic meaning the males look different than the females. i have also seen yellow labs and demasoni in a 36inch tank with no real problems but it seems that may be more hit or miss.
so the red top is the only fish in the tank right now, is this correct?

and dont worry alot of us started out the same way including me...


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## ryan1423 (Oct 24, 2009)

Yea the red top is the only one left. Anything I can put in there with it? And those cookie cutter setups......are they meant to be paired that way? If it says 5 of this species and 5 of this that means 10 fish right? Or does it mean just those 5 fish or just these 5 fish. A lot of good info on here guys, thanks.


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## steelers fan (Jun 26, 2009)

yes they are meant to be paired that way


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## steelers fan (Jun 26, 2009)

also check out the library for cichlids for begginers it has suggestions as well as links to the profiles like the cookie cutter as well as tank size recs


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

cjacob316 said:


> *DrgRcr*
> 
> 
> > That alone may be causing your problems because you are removing all of the beneficial bacteria from your filters
> ...


OK, so perhaps there is still a small amount left to regenerate each time, obviously it works for you. But then my question would be why do you remove all of it? Just about everywhere I've read, most people just rinse and re-use. I can see why the manufacturers would tell you to change it($$), but why chance any problems. Plus, it's got to save you money by re-using.


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## rupertoooo (Dec 7, 2005)

If the Red Top is the only fish you have left fish aggression is probably not the issue. This would lead us to believe that water chemistry, diet or disease was/is the culprit.

Lets break it down by each category.

Water Chemistry/water cleaning practice
-Make sure all levels are in the acceptable range, Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite and chlorine.
-Water changing practice. The most important factor in fish keeping is keeping the water clean which you seem to be on top of. However I will add that you should never do a water change and clean your filter at the same time this could result in a loss of critical bacteria which could destroy/damage your nitrogen cycle.

Diet
-Extremely critical particularly with Mbuna. Mbuna are herbivores and should be fed a strict spirulina diet, no exceptions. If this is not done these fish will eventually develop a disease (see below disease). Their digestive system is extremely sensitive and feeding them a diet high in protein and fat will inhibit their means to pass solids.

Disease
Malawian bloat-To avoid this dreaded disease follow this practice. A clean tank, stress free conditions and diet. 
There are numerous other diseases but the aforementioned one is worth mentioning due to Mbunas propensity to develop it with poor conditions. If a fish develops this disease the right course of action is Metronidazole.

I am in know means a African Cichlid expert but I have successfully been keeping Tangs and Mbuna for 13 years and have been a fish hobbyist for 25.

Regards,

Craig Rupert


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

*DrgRcr*


> OK, so perhaps there is still a small amount left to regenerate each time, obviously it works for you. But then my question would be why do you remove all of it? Just about everywhere I've read, most people just rinse and re-use. I can see why the manufacturers would tell you to change it($$), but why chance any problems. Plus, it's got to save you money by re-using.


because the more you rinse the floss the more it tears it up and the less effective it becomes, also if you use the premade filters, the carbon hould not be used for more than a month, plain and simple, and it's not a risk to remove and replace floss and carbon, and since i use quilt batting it's not as rigid as some stuff made for aquariums, so it does not stand up to being rinsed continuesly, plus it's cheap enough to not care how often i replace it. this discussion has been fought over many many times, i have changed out filters with no spikes at all, and i have moved filters to new tanks and had a spike in the new tank, proving that not as much bacteria build up in your filter as you think, and making a big deal about changing media is pointless because there is a lot more bacteria elsewhere so it doesn't matter


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

cjacob316 said:


> *DrgRcr*
> 
> 
> > OK, so perhaps there is still a small amount left to regenerate each time, obviously it works for you. But then my question would be why do you remove all of it? Just about everywhere I've read, most people just rinse and re-use. I can see why the manufacturers would tell you to change it($$), but why chance any problems. Plus, it's got to save you money by re-using.
> ...


No need to get defensive cj. I merely stated MY opinions on MY experiences based on the OP saying he changed both the cartridge AND loose media monthly. Just because your way works, doesn't make it the end all solution for every tank. I've had floss in my filters for a year with no problems and rinse the loose media monthly. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who will debate the topic either way.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

what loose media are you talking about? you talking about bio balls or ceramic rings? because i'm sure that's not what he meant, my carbon is loose in my filter, in my hob's there is no "loose" media. way too much has been made over this preserving filter **** you guys think you have to do, changing your media is better for the tank, flat out, plain and simple, floss works better when changed regularly, and it does not cause spikes, and if it does it would not be enough to cause issues because bacteria will reproduce quickly


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## aandfsoccr04 (Sep 2, 2009)

don't give up ryan. It happens to the best of us.


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

cjacob316 said:


> what loose media are you talking about? you talking about bio balls or ceramic rings? because i'm sure that's not what he meant, my carbon is loose in my filter, in my hob's there is no "loose" media. way too much has been made over this preserving filter #%$& you guys think you have to do, changing your media is better for the tank, flat out, plain and simple, floss works better when changed regularly, and it does not cause spikes, and if it does it would not be enough to cause issues because bacteria will reproduce quickly


What part of loose don't you understand? Anything not in a cartridge, you name it ceramic, balls, whatever. Your "floss works better when changed regularly" theory is bogus as is the new media monthly. Completely unnecessary and a waste of $, along with carbon. Rinsed properly, they are just as effective as new.


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## steelers fan (Jun 26, 2009)

after a while i dont think you can rinse them(carbon) enough to get out everything theyve absorbed.
that being said *** left carbon behind years ago and do straight filter floss for all my filter media which i rinse with every weekly waterchange and change once or twice a month.


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## zazz (Apr 5, 2008)

when i first started i lost loads of fish ...why? i am still not sure but somehow equlibrium has been reached in my tank for quite some time now ...however i would say that with a small tank any mistakes you make will be amplified as opposed to a large one.

having loads of sand substrate and rocks in the tank will take the load off the canisters/hob to the point that after a while you could almost change it it completely without a hitch.. thats what i do now and its ok.


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## TKC747 (Dec 5, 2008)

Don't give up!!!! Fishkeeping is a wonderful hobby. Just do your research before you get more fish. If your last fish dies, take some time off and read the articles in the library, and pay attention to threads regarding "cycling", which is the most important thing a beginner has to do correctly. I'm not saying you did or you didn't but never rush into anything....I'm a beginner as well and I've learned that cycling with fish is not such a good idea. I haven't had any casualties but if I had to do it over, I would well...do it over differently.

Just post your concerns, start a new thread if you have to and fix what's broken, but don't give up! :thumb:


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

cjacob316 said:


> *DrgRcr*
> 
> 
> > That alone may be causing your problems because you are removing all of the beneficial bacteria from your filters
> ...


My apologies to Ryan for sidetracking again, but I want to say that cjacob said that "That alone may be causing your problems...". May is the word I want to draw to your attention. He was merely offering some insight, and I also think it may be the problem or potentially at least one of the problems.

It is not an untrue statement when referring to a tank that has been set up for a "few months". A typical cycle lasts anywhere from 4-6 weeks. That suggests that bacteria do not reproduce nearly as fast as you might suggest.

That suggests to me that with a new tank there has not been much time for a large population of bacteria to set up in the gravel and other parts of the tank. That suggests to me that in fact, stripping a filter of beneficial bacteria or even a portion of it, could compromise a new tank since it will take a couple of weeks for the population to at least replenish itself, let alone populate all of the substrate.

It also suggests that ammonia is not being processed very quickly while the bacterial population is rebuilding. It suggests that his fish are being exposed to toxins that compromise their well being. We may not see the immediate signs of distress, but if it compromises the fishes' immune systems and makes for difficult breathing, that may be cause for the problems Ryan is having.

You make references to your tanks and not having problems with switching out the media monthly. I'm quite certain your tanks are well established. Ryan's tank is not well established and is still precariously balanced on a biological edge, imo. There are many many hobbyists who would not think of removing all inserts from their filters monthly. Are they all wrong?

I've stated my opinion, you and others have stated your own. To everyone posting in this thread, let's not refer to the opinions of others as untrue statements when it's clear it's merely an opinion. There are many different paths to the same outcome. Let's make sure our members who are new to fishkeeping understand that.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

the word may had nothing to do with what i was saying, i was saying that removing filter media means you remove all the bacteria is untrue, because it is, the filter is the not only source of bacteria, and sometimes, it's not a source at all. and it doesn't matter how old the tank is, a filter doesn't magically have bacteria before everything else, there is a chance that the bacteria chose to only reside on the glass and there is nothing in his fitler

telling someone that removing their filter floss removes all of their bacteria is completely *untrue*, i don't care who you are, you're wrong, whether you tank is a week old or 20 years old bacteria is everywhere in the tank and not just in the filter, plain and simple, everyone can remove and replace their floss and carbon(if you use it) every **** week if they want, i completely support the descision, but never tell someone not to replace media because they are destroying bacteria, replacing media is a perfectly appropriate way to maintain any tank in any circumstance, period. it's not the only way to do it, but it is perfectly appropriate

and you should know that bacteria reproduce enough to support the load within 24 hours, this topic has been covered so many times and as a moderator i would expect you to know that


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

cjacob316 said:


> the word may had nothing to do with what i was saying, i was saying that removing filter media means you remove all the bacteria is untrue, because it is, the filter is the not only source of bacteria, and sometimes, it's not a source at all. and it doesn't matter how old the tank is, a filter doesn't magically have bacteria before everything else, there is a chance that the bacteria chose to only reside on the glass and there is nothing in his fitler
> 
> telling someone that removing their filter floss removes all of their bacteria is completely *untrue*, i don't care who you are, you're wrong, whether you tank is a week old or 20 years old bacteria is everywhere in the tank and not just in the filter, plain and simple, everyone can remove and replace their floss and carbon(if you use it) every darn week if they want, i completely support the descision, but never tell someone not to replace media because they are destroying bacteria, replacing media is a perfectly appropriate way to maintain any tank in any circumstance, period. it's not the only way to do it, but it is perfectly appropriate
> 
> and you should know that bacteria reproduce enough to support the load within 24 hours, this topic has been covered so many times and as a moderator i would expect you to know that


edit.


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

Let me try again. I responded thinking you had said what the other fellow had said. Let me try again.



cjacob316 said:


> the word may had nothing to do with what i was saying, i was saying that removing filter media means you remove all the bacteria is untrue, because it is, the filter is the not only source of bacteria, and sometimes, it's not a source at all. and it doesn't matter how old the tank is, a filter doesn't magically have bacteria before everything else, there is a chance that the bacteria chose to only reside on the glass and there is nothing in his fitler
> 
> telling someone that removing their filter floss removes all of their bacteria is completely *untrue*, i don't care who you are, you're wrong, whether you tank is a week old or 20 years old bacteria is everywhere in the tank and not just in the filter, plain and simple, everyone can remove and replace their floss and carbon(if you use it) every darn week if they want, i completely support the descision, but never tell someone not to replace media because they are destroying bacteria, replacing media is a perfectly appropriate way to maintain any tank in any circumstance, period. it's not the only way to do it, but it is perfectly appropriate
> 
> and you should know that bacteria reproduce enough to support the load within 24 hours, this topic has been covered so many times and as a moderator i would expect you to know that


You're funny. I should know that bacteria reproduce enough to support the load in 24 hours??? Huh? Want to try that with the bioload in my 360? You're saying that if I stripped my filters bare, that the bacterial population would resume its work at full capacity within 24 hours?

In the 20+ years I've been keeping fish, if there's one thing I've learned is that fish do much in better in tanks where the owner does as little fiddling as possible, especially with the filtration. I did not say don't replace the media. Go back and re-read my post if you need to because I think you misread what I wrote.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

While we do each have the right to our own opinion, not all opinions are created equalâ€¦

When discussing a scientific situation facts are what we need to consider, not opinions. So I think it is most logical to discuss facts and draw conclusions based on them. If someoneâ€™s opinion omits facts, itâ€™s only sensible to point out facts that have been omittedâ€¦

All the while we need to keep in mind none of us have â€œall the factsâ€


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

When I said that it *MAY* cause a problem, it was because the OP stated he changed out his floss *AND* his loose media, *WHATEVER* that may be, every month. I do see that some others here got the point I was trying to get across instead of e-mugging me.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i just don't assume that someone would throw out bio balls or ceramic rings every month, it doesn't make sense so i didn't even consider it

i do not advise not to change media because i know that there is bacteria elsewhere that can reproduce

i don't use filter media when cycling a tank because without actual fish poo there is no point, that is a good way to avoid bacteria growth on a place that you might want to change often, might. because i do, since i find it benificial and it does not effect my tanks negatively, i don't like people telling guys they shouldn't change media, i'm sorry. to me it's misleading, there are millions of more surfaces for bacteria to grow other than media, and i am willing to bet that most of us could strip down their filters and their tank would survive, because i have, and it can't be some fluke or unique case, nature is nature and even though it's in our living room, it's still living things behaving naturally

i also think that too much weight was put into thinking it's a cycling problem and everyone was tending to ignore a compatability issue, which i think we realized was the actual case


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

cjacob316 said:


> i just don't assume that someone would throw out bio balls or ceramic rings every month, it doesn't make sense so i didn't even consider it
> *But remember a couple of things. Most manufacturers will state that you should change out your media monthly($), and I think most know it's a farce and unnecessary. Also, if the OP is new with a new tank, he may have created a bigger problem by doing so. And lastly, we all know what happens when you assume  .*
> i do not advise not to change media because i know that there is bacteria elsewhere that can reproduce
> *IMO, this all depends on stocking, tank size, substrate, etc. How much and how quickly it reproduces depends on alot of factors. There would be no such thing as a mini cycle when adding new fish if they were able to reproduce so quickly.*
> ...


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

cjacob316 said:


> i do not advise not to change media because i know that there is bacteria elsewhere that can reproduce


 did you know that there are many species of bacteria that can consume ammonia and nitrite and that each species tends to be different? Did you know that studies of new and established aquariums show different quanitities of each species? 
Did you know that the beneficial bacteria can only reproduce in direct proportion to the available food but have hard limits on how frequently they can replicate?



cjacob316 said:


> i don't like people telling guys they shouldn't change media, i'm sorry. to me it's misleading,


 there WILL be many instances when I would advise someone to not change out their media becuase I would make an educated guess that in their setup, the majority of bacteria may be in the filter at that time. If you remove any percentage of ammonia eaters, amount of food "x" will go uneaten for some time. The amount of time will be dependant on many factors which are impossible to know such as which species is dominant in that tank. Since we cannot know, we MUST operate with a large margin for safety and the standard recommendations are more prudent such as requests to not replace media in filters.



cjacob316 said:


> i am willing to bet that most of us could strip down their filters and their tank would survive,


I know for a fact that a large number of my friends who are new to the hobby have killed many fish this way... what is the basis for this claim? and remember... this is coming from the person who understands filterless tanks well and has run more than a couple without substrate or filtration.



cjacob316 said:


> i also think that too much weight was put into thinking it's a cycling problem and everyone was tending to ignore a compatability issue, which i think we realized was the actual case


 I cannot believe that you would say this... why on earth can the OP not have multiple contributory factors?

I am concerned here that we are letting facts and assumptions from those facts override common sense and well known (but older) facts.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Just to point out..

The Author of this thread recently joined and has 6 postsâ€¦

He posted the thread... responded twice the next day... and hasn't responded in the last 4 days despite direct questions...

Chances are heâ€™s not much of a forum guy and isnâ€™t following the thread anymoreâ€¦ and without a bit of additional input from him I donâ€™t think we can really figure out what his problem is.

It seems that the tank is not cycled and the original stocklist was not compatibleâ€¦ though there is no way to tell which of these, which combination of these, or what other details caused his problems.


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## jagz (Nov 1, 2009)

Great point Toby!


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

hopefully before the fit hit the shan he figured out what was wrong

also i'd point out that he said a fish was holding, i really don't believe fish would be trying to mate if the water quality was poor enough to kill them. also the breeding leads to a huge chance of aggression, correct me if that is an inappropriate assumption


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

cjacob316 said:


> also i'd point out that he said a fish was holding, i really don't believe fish would be trying to mate if the water quality was poor enough to kill them.


 I've seen mbuna and other cichlids breed in water with nitrates that were lethal to new additions... 
so I'd say yes, they do still breed in water that is very stressful to them.



cjacob316 said:


> also the breeding leads to a huge chance of aggression, correct me if that is an inappropriate assumption


 I don't believe this is a fair statement. I've seen fish with a desire to breed with huge amounts of aggression, and I've had kenyi that were breeding with very little aggression. I can't say I've ever made a correlation between breeding and aggression. For me, the correlation has been between sexual maturity and aggression.

I would like to address what I view as a bit of a dig at those of us who were willing to get involved in the tangent on this thread... not all conversations have to be solely focused around the OP especially when the OP has gone silent. Replies can be around discussion points with memebers who have joined the thread.

Sure, it is common courtesy to respect the OP on their thread, but that doesn't mean that these topics cannot explore a tangent "after the fact".

Now, to tie the whole conversation back to the OP's tank, my educated guess is that we had a stressful mix of cichlids who had reached sexual maturity and possibly some spikes in ammonia or nitrate which caused illness and death... it's just plain and simple incorrect cichlid husbandry.

Sorry to be blunt, but let's call a spade a spade.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Whoa up for a minute. All the mouths are running away without the brain. 

You need to reread carefully what he said. He did not say there was a fish holding as in mating...

He said the fish was holding on.. Quite a different story, maybe???

Don't shoot until you identify the target, please..

I suspect the guy went away to find a forum less difficult to deal with.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

By the way, I thought moderators were intended to calm situations. opcorn:


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## robertw (Aug 6, 2009)

I didn't read through all the posts here as some have become arguments on what is right and what is wrong with tank cleanings etc. But whenever I am starting a new tank out I try to get it setup how I like, substrate, rocks, maybe a few live plants (if that's your thing), and I let that sit for a week or so. I take my readings, if all looks relatively safe, I buy some cheap fish from my lfs and get those guys in there to speed up my cycle. I then add some bottled bacteria in the tank, and let everything take its course.

After about 2 weeks, if all the fish are alive it's about time to get your cichlids. I have done this for three different tank setups, 2 20 gallon setups, and 1 55 gallon. I am pleased to report, none of my fish have died using my methods lol. I would definitely try to put fish in the tank that are dirt cheap, or that you wont miss much, because losing those guys is much easier for me to deal with than if I lost my main fish, my mbuna and my botia. Anyways best of luck, I am far from an expert, but this method has worked for me, and my friends whom I helped setup tanks for, so take it for what it is.

Also out of curiosity, is you public water high in flouride? I had issues at first, I lost 2 cheap fish I had put in the tank using my cities water, I tested all looked fine, I used another towns water (my mothers town), got some more cheap fish, and no problems. Returned the fish to the lfs, bought my mbuna, been happy since. May not be a similar issue but I figured I would throw that out there.

Anyways gl, and don't get discouraged, you'll figure it out.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

PfunMo said:


> By the way, I thought moderators were intended to calm situations. opcorn:


 We agree to deal with situations, and calming is often necessary... sometimes it is something different that one of us feels is appropriate.

In this case, I believe the correct "answers" were found on page 1... the rest was something else. 
8)


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Some mods calm things down, some throw gas to the fire. The former are an asset, the latter is not. 
Sorry to be blunt but let's call a spade a spade. Sounds like trying to start a fire. Let's call a spade a spade, okay?


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Number6 said:


> Sure, it is common courtesy to respect the OP on their thread, but that doesn't mean that these topics cannot explore a tangent "after the fact".


I didn't mean to suggest that you or anyone else disrespected the OP. I think his questions were as thoroughly covered as best they could be with the information he provided...

I only pointed out his lack of participation as it seemed we really couldn't find out what was the probable cause (aggression or water quality or both or 'other') without additional input from him...

I think both sides have valid reasoningâ€™s to suggest their concern... the tank was likely overstocked with potentially aggressive cichlids that were maturing day by day... and the tank also did not sound to be "properly" cycled therefore ammonia build up was probable...

Either or both could be the concern... and there could be any number of additional concerns but without having the OP to update us with details, the best we can do is conceptualize with "generalized" ideas...

I personally love the "generalized" conversations that take place after an initial set of questions are answered. Those are often times where we can learn and share some the more interesting details of the hobby.

Though I must admit I donâ€™t see what you guys are giving the Mods a hard time about. They were simply being hobbyists sharing their thoughts on the subjectâ€¦


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Double Post


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