# My 150 gallon project



## narhay (Feb 28, 2007)

Hi,

This is my latest project:

Equipment

2 x Rio 10HF 600gph for UGJs
2 x 36" 2x39W Hagen Glo with 10 000 ARC bulbs
2 x Aquaclear 110 HOB
1 x Fluval FX5 Canister
2 x 200W Visi-therm Stealth heaters

Here it is with almost everything removed:










Here are my UGJs. I replaced the old ones with new, 3/4" PVC tubing and a new dual closed-loop design.










Here is part of the gutter/cave/rock background I have been making. The gutters are vertical with 4 different sized holes for smaller fish to be able to use some caves on their own. The plan is to have all equipment seamlessly integrated behind the background so as to not have ANY visible equipment...although you may be able to see a hose or heater through the 'cave' openings.:










I have been filing the holes now for any rough edges. The next step is to make the housing for the Rio 10HFs. It will have to jut out on the bottom to accomodate the pumps. That is what the large square shaped cutouts from the gutter are.










Here is a small piece of gutter that I pieced together to ensure the rocks would adhere properly. It's heavy, but I will have to think about making more holes to have fewer rocks. Excuse the excess silicone. It was my first piece and the rest will look much better.



















And this is where I got the idea from: http://www.duboisi.com/diy/BNdiygrotto/bndiygrotto.htm
Of course I did my own modifications of the basic premise. Hope you like it.

Adam


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## FeatherfinFan (Sep 1, 2002)

Very nice project you're putting together. Nice to see my background article is still gettting circulation. I think you (and your fish) will like the results. I'm interested in seeing how the verticle setup works, should hide your equipment nicely  Keep this thread updated when you can, and don't get too tired from gluing all those rocks, lol


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## narhay (Feb 28, 2007)

Thanks for the idea. I really think that this is a great looking background idea without the hassle, pH issues and wasted space of a concrete background. Since it is a very tall tank (30"), this is a perfect way to utilize my vertical real estate.


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## Charlutz (Mar 13, 2006)

One question for the UGJ users -- is there any benefit to using 3/4" cpvc instead of 1/2"? Isn't the goal simply pressure and flow? Why use 3/4" and necessitate a larger pump to get the same amount of pressure? :-?


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## tropheus duboisi breeder (Jan 31, 2007)

Yes the bigger the piping the more pressure is lost. so if you have a 400ghp powerhead and 1/2" pvc you will not loose as much pressure if you had 3/4" pvc.


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## narhay (Feb 28, 2007)

Actually my pipe is 3/4" all around, but tapers at the Tee joints to become 1/2" for the jets. If you have a look at this calculator, you can see that the larger the pipe diameter (within reason), the less head loss and the greater the flow. I believe the head loss is the villain when it comes to having the jets pump more or less because of the bends in a UGJ setup.

Plug in some values for the same pump and see for yourself how the diameter changes it.

http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php

I chose 3/4" because my Rio has a 3/4" outlet, and for the advantages the greater diameter affords, with the smaller outlets to create additional pressure.


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## tropheus duboisi breeder (Jan 31, 2007)

doen't even have 1/2" tubing so how would you know? If you think of it, it doesn't make sense that 400gph and 3/4" tubing loses less pressure and having a significantly smaller tube 1/2" loses more. um don't think so. if you think about it if you have a foot of both 1/2in and 3/4in tubing and you fill them up. the 3/4in tubing is going have to have more water put into it to fill it up, than a 1/2"tubing. thus the pump has to pump more to fill the tubes on a 3/4"in


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## narhay (Feb 28, 2007)

...so try 0.75" tubing and compare it to 1.00" tubing. It's the same idea.

The pressure in a 1/2" tube also pushes back at the pump, reducing the flow.


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## Nil (Jan 20, 2005)

Think of this in terms of a garden hose.... If you put your thumb over the end of the hose, you can make the water squirt out further, but you get less water actually flowing out of a hose. If you don't believe me, time how long it would take to fill up a bucket both ways. So it would seem like the best technique would be to allow as much water flow as possible by having larger pipes, and then just up the pressure at the jets by having a smaller opening.


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## fosterthefishydude (May 15, 2007)

Nil, the reason the water goes farther through a hose with ur thumb over part of the end is because its the same amount of water going through a smaller opening.

Narhay, you no whats funny about that head loss calculator? its inaccurate. *** seen people on this forum reference it before and it always starts a disagreement cuz it conflicts with the laws of physics. a mag drive 12 pump has an outlet measuring .75". enter a 1 into the categories "Horizontal length in feet", "Number of pipe exits", and "Number of pipe entrances" leave everything else 0. choose Mag12 as the pump, and set the pipe diameter at .75". itll give you a flow rate of 1116gph. do it again with everything the same except change the pipe diameter to 1.5". itll give u a flow rate of 1202. the flow rate cant increase by attaching a 1.5" pipe rather than a .75" pipe on a pump with an outlet measuring .75". the flow rate will actually decrease for as long as the waters going through the 1.5" pipe. as long as all the jets are the same size, u can use a 3" pipe or a .75" pipe. either way ur gonna get the same flow rate through the jets.

hate to burst ur bubble guys, but tropheus duboisi breeder is right on this one.


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## tropheus duboisi breeder (Jan 31, 2007)

Thank you Fosterthefishydude


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## Nil (Jan 20, 2005)

<sigh>

"Nil, the reason the water goes farther through a hose with ur thumb over part of the end is because its the same amount of water going through a smaller opening."

Ok, so how small would the opening have to get before you _wouldn't_ get the same amount of water flowing through it? 1/4 inch? 1/8 inch? 1/16 inch? 1/32 inch? Really what you're doing is increasing the back pressure by limiting the flow.

The problem is you're assuming that the pump is going to be able to force the same amount of water through the pipes regardless of how much back pressure there is. That's really not accurate. If you had some massive pump the back pressure might not have a _noticeable_ effect, but with any aquarium pump the difference is quite measureable.

Why do you think you lose flow with pumps when they have a higher head? From the pumps perspective, it's all back pressure, whether due to gravity or smaller piping/openings.

I'm guessing you won't get any improvement to go with significantly bigger pipe than the opening of the pump, but I think you will see a decrease to go with smaller than the opening of the pump.


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## tropheus duboisi breeder (Jan 31, 2007)

yes, but then you are going to have the water just dribble out of the jet instead of it being a jet. its going to be like having no finger over the hose.


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## fosterthefishydude (May 15, 2007)

Nil, that is only relavent if u use, at any point in the piping, a pipe thats smaller than the outlet of the pump, which i didnt say to do. i wasnt saying use the smallest pipe u can find. keep in mind, in a ugj system, theres more than one exit to the pump so its not really comparable to a garden hose. take Narhays system for example. its actually very efficient. his outlet is 3/4". his piping is 3/4" but at the jets they get smaller to increase the flow, which in turn does add back pressure, but with 4 jets on a pump goin 600gph it doesnt really matter. because add up the jets diameter and ur gonna get 2" which is way more than 3/4", which results in not adding as much back pressure. i no u can put more water through a 1 1" pipe than 2 1/2" pipes so there would be more flow through his jets if he had bigger jets but the sum of the diameters of these jets almost triple the diameter of his piping so theres really no back pressure at all from the *jets* being smaller as long as u have enough of them.

tropheus duboisi breeder, i dont really get what u meant by that last post.


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## Nil (Jan 20, 2005)

I agree--I thought from the following quotes that people were discussiong whether they'd get better results by using 1/2" pipe throughout the entire system (not just the jets):

"One question for the UGJ users -- is there any benefit to using 3/4" cpvc instead of 1/2"? Isn't the goal simply pressure and flow? Why use 3/4" and necessitate a larger pump to get the same amount of pressure?"

"If you think of it, it doesn't make sense that 400gph and 3/4" tubing loses less pressure and having a significantly smaller tube 1/2" loses more. um don't think so."

"Yes the bigger the piping the more pressure is lost. so if you have a 400ghp powerhead and 1/2" pvc you will not loose as much pressure if you had 3/4" pvc."

Sorry for any confusion...


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## fosterthefishydude (May 15, 2007)

o i guess i might've changed the subject?


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## tropheus duboisi breeder (Jan 31, 2007)

i don't even get my post :lol:


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## narhay (Feb 28, 2007)

It's ok...isn't this what threads about projects are for? Anyways...

The pump I have is actually 660gph. The outlets are crimped 1/2" PVC piping, so the outlets are smaller than the 1/2" that was mentioned.

What do you all think about adding a 5th outlet? Seems like a lot of pressure to go out of some small openings. I don't want to have some water jets that act like razors to my fish (concentrated high flow that would hurt).


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## jtiii (Jul 3, 2007)

Any pipe causes pressure loss as water flows through it. This loss is based on the following factors:

1. The velocity of the water: As velocity increases, pressure losses increase. Velocity is directly related to flow rate. An increase or decrease in flow rate will result in a corresponding increase or decrease in velocity. 
2. The size (inside diameter) of the pipe: Smaller pipe causes a greater proportion of the water to be in contact with the pipe, which creates friction. Pipe size also affects velocity. Given a constant flow rate, decreasing pipe size increases the waterâ€™s velocity, which increases friction.
3. The roughness of the pipe.

Regarding the second point, remember that the water along the edge of the pipe is subject to skin friction, which reduces its flow. Water in the middle experiences laminar flow (vastly less friction).
Remember from geometry that when looking at a slice of the pipe, an increase in pipe diameter causes a direct (linear) increase in the amount of water against the edge. The water away from the edge increases exponentially, so an increase in pipe diameter causes a decrease in the ratio of molecules experiencing friction to molecules just cruising along happily.

Yeah, but what about velocity? Given a pump with a flow rate of 35 GPM, hooking a 50 foot long 2' diameter pipe up to it will definitely give a slower velocity than a 1/4" pipe. But what is velocity? Just the measure of how fast the water is moving past a fixed point. The only relevant thing about velocity is that a higher velocity results in more friction. Otherwise, it can be misleading. The important thing here is flow rate.

Flow rate is the measure of the volume of water past a point in a given time period. In our scenario, the fat pipe will stay close to the pump's 35 GPM rating, as there is avery low friction/volume ratio. If we made the pipe 3' in diameter, the velocity would be much lower, but it would increase the flow rate (very slightly...).

The velocities of the various pipes moving 35 GPM would be 
3' pipe = .011 ft/sec
2' pipe = .024 ft/sec
1" pipe = 14.2 ft/sec
.25"pipe = 228 ft/sec

If you had a 350 gallon barrel with a 1" drain hole in the bottom, and you needed to move the water 50 feet and spray it out a .25" inch hole, which would you rather use?
1. a 1" pipe that immediately narrowed to .25" and then ran 50 feet and then ended.
2. a 1" pipe that ran 50 feet and then ended with a cap with a .25" hole in it?
3. a 1" pipe that widened to 2", ran 50 feet and then ended with a cap with a .25" hole in it?

The 2" pipe will deliver the highest flow to the .25" hole. In all cases the initial pressure at the bottom of the tank is the same. The smaller pipe, will have a higher velocity than the others at any point besides the outlet. The outlets are the same in all three examples; a .25" orifice. At the orifice the two larger pipes will be trying to shove a much higher flow through the same size hole, resulting in a higher pressure at the hole than with the small pipe, which is wasting much of its pressure pushing on 50' of pipe wall.

An important side note is that the pump would have to work much harder to give the same outlet pressure for the little pipe. That's why firefighters that have a 1" nozzle end don't use a 1" hose. On longer hoses the pressure coming out would be negligible.


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## jb1234 (Apr 2, 2006)

Hey narhay just wondering how things are coming along? Looking forward to seeing how the background turned out.


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## narhay (Feb 28, 2007)

Hi,

Just revising some plans...have all the pieces now so getting put together slowly. Will post more pictures when I take them.


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## narhay (Feb 28, 2007)

Some updates. I have been slowly but surely working on this. I took out the UGJs because I feel for the work and the stuff sticking out of the sand, and the power consumption, they won't be worth it. It would be another 70W (2 x 35W pumps) running consistently. And if something went wrong, I would have to remove the whole wall.

I am also not going to divide the separate gutters. It will be one long tunnel. The reason for this being that I have some holes at the bottom so all the detritus that will build up in the gutters will fall to the bottom and I can easily suck it up without having to go into 100 different caves to do so.

Enough talk, here are some pictures:


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## Scorpio (Sep 27, 2003)

Any updates on this project? Pics?


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## narhay (Feb 28, 2007)

The project has been completed for about 1.5 or 2 years now. Check the malawi section for 150 gallon mbuna with cave grotto something or other. If you want, I can post photos when I get home. So far it has stood up to the test of time and the fish use the space a lot.


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## morfeus077 (May 9, 2009)

jtiii said:


> Any pipe causes pressure loss as water flows through it. This loss is based on the following factors:
> 
> 1. The velocity of the water: As velocity increases, pressure losses increase. Velocity is directly related to flow rate. An increase or decrease in flow rate will result in a corresponding increase or decrease in velocity.
> 2. The size (inside diameter) of the pipe: Smaller pipe causes a greater proportion of the water to be in contact with the pipe, which creates friction. Pipe size also affects velocity. Given a constant flow rate, decreasing pipe size increases the waterâ€™s velocity, which increases friction.
> 3. The roughness of the pipe.


You're not giving accurate info here... There are 3 base factors of consideration here. Pressure (PSI), Flow/Volume (GPH) and area (Pipe Diameter). Sorry, velocity does not exist in hydraulics or hydro dynamics.

Changing the size of a pipe does not change flow, only pressure, however if you overcome the ability of a pump with restriction, its output is reduced altogether. The inadvertent effect does not justify a direct relationship between pipe diameter and volume. Additionally, the relationship between pressure and diameter is inverse. As a rule, flow is constant when pressure or pipe diameter changes.

It should stand to reason that flow/volume is related to gravity. This is dynamic when the method of producing flow is mechanical (from a pump) and static when the method of producing flow is gravity (water tower). Increase the head that water must travel to with mechanically generated water flow and you reduce the flow, not the pressure. It's great to have gravity on your side!


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## WillieB (Jul 4, 2009)

Hey guys, I'm working on a couple of different projects and project ideas that I'm thinking the information you're trying to share here would prove useful. I'm just having a hard time getting my head wrapped around what you're trying to say though. Maybe its terminology or my own practical experience with this stuff that's making it difficult to follow you... I'm not sure which.

Would you guys please consider explaining yourselves with some examples? Thanks


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