# Salt in the Tang aquarium...



## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

Hello,
I'm wondering if there are any good reasons to be adding salt to my tang aquarium. I've heard things like it will increase slime coat, general health, and stuff like that. Should I be adding salt to my tank? If so, please tell me how much to add. My tank is 20 gallons, and has 2 calvus, and 5 similis (plus young), and 3 ivory mystery snails. Would I need to slowly ease onto using salt in the tank? (I don't want to shock anyone...especially the similis babies). My water is pretty hard and basic. 
Thanks again,

Manoah


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I've heard things like it will increase slime coat, general health, and stuff like that.


'Salt' can mean many things. I'm assuming you're talking about what's sold as 'aquarium salt'. All myths and marketing hype IMHO. Your fish can produce the slime coat that it needs on it's own. It's possible to add some irritant to get it to produce more, but why would you want to tod that? Also, I"ve not seen evidence that salt would be one of those irritants. And salt has no medicinal value, so would be of no benefit in improving 'general health'. Question everything you read. Ask for evidence that's more than experiential. Then decide.

My rule is if you can't measure it, and specify the benefit of it, then don't add it to the tank.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

"Salt" will help their immune systems. I use epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) and put a couple healthy pinches in my 55 after each water change. I put one good pinch in my 20L tank after wc.

Hope that helps.

Russ


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

I'm not sure about measurable effects for immune systems, but I agree that aquarium salt is useless unless you are treating some specific diseases.

Epsom salt is something else entirely- and I use it with every water change to raise the hardness of my water. Epsom salt is also very good for treating intestinal diseases like bloat, but at much higher concentrations than you would use for adjusting the water chemistry.

If you have hard, basic water- then low levels of salt will be of little benefit to your fish.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

It's all anecdotal. No evidence that I've ever seen to support any claims. You'd think salt was a wonder drug for fish. Someone supply some links to research, and I'll go away.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Increasing slime coat is not necessarily a good thing. It happens when you irritate the fish's skin. I would never add NaCl routinely, but have used it in conjunction with heat to treat ich. That's the only time.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> but have used it in conjunction with heat to treat ich.


That's my point. If you know that it will kill a parasite, and you know at what concentration, and you know that that concentration is safe for fish, then I'd proceed. But that's the only way I'd proceed with adding anything to my tanks.


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

interesting to hear all the opinions. The reason I was asking is because my female calvus has a slightly cloudy eye, due to fighting w/ the similis (cough cough, trying to eat the fry) and I was hoping that a constant small dosage of salt would help the current wound, and any future wounds to heal. Here's my final question. prov356...are there any negative side affects of adding salt? cause if it just doesn't do anything, and may even help...I'm for it. But if there are proven negative side affects...I'm against it.
Thanks for your comments everyone!

Manoah


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> cause if it just doesn't do anything, and may even help...I'm for it. But if there are proven negative side affects...I'm against it.


Add too much because you can't measure the concentration and the fish may die. Other than that, I can't think of any side effects. Continue with this thinking and you'll eventually be throwing every 'additive' at the local shop into your tank for one reason or another. I call it 'additivitis'. Eventually it'll be detrimental to your fish.



> salt would help the current wound, and any future wounds to heal


Regarding helping to heal wounds, what exactly does it do to help heal wounds? It's not an antibiotic. It doesn't provide topical protection against infection. The fish's system (and for that matter any living creature's system) heals the wound. Medicine's don't heal, and tonics don't heal.

I'm just reasoning this through out loud, not putting you on the spot. This is the kind of conversation I have in my head about this kind of stuff. Salt has been considered 'medicinal' by fishkeepers for decades. I can't find any evidence that it's true. I've looked.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

For healing wounds, I recommend water changes- and sometimes Melafix. Never salt- it could be an irritant for a wound.


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

If all my previous reading has been correct, salt can help prevent infection, and clean the a wound. Cause if you think about it, fish are swimming in a living soup...and not all that's living is beneficial. And if the only negative side affect is only possible if there is an overdose...
Okay let me try to weigh these out.

*Disadvantages:*
1. Death if overdose
2. Death if used on wrong species

*Advantages: *
1. Prevention against ick (and good treatment when used with heat) 
2. Cleans wounds, and can possibly increase healing rate

I've read up on this a little, and it seems that the majority of people who used salt in their tanks just noticed 'better' health in general. Nothing that could be scientifically proven (actually, science cannot prove anything, because since we don't know everything about everything in the universe, nothing can be technically 'proven'...but that's off topic ) but people just say they saw better health in general with salt being used. Now, I'd like you to think about all the little things you do for your fish...ask yourself, 'can everything I do be scientifically proven?' The answer is probably not. That's because a lot of what we amature hobbiests (I assume we are amatures) do is not the result of massive testing and scientific proof, but of our own experiences. I don't know if you've ever used salt, and then had a negative result, but it seems like everyone I've talked to (and read about) has nothing but good to say. I'd also like to point out that salt is very VERY cheap, and even if there are only a few advantages, it costs practically nothing, so it's not much of a huge investment.

Manoah


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

> Never salt- it could be an irritant for a wound.


Really? My reading (and logic) tell me that it would clean and stop infection...which would potentially be much worse than an irritant. But I do see your point. This is really turning into an interesting thread.


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

Someone asked for articles...here are a bunch I found.

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article5.html

http://www.yamatogreen.com/salt.htm

http://www.petfish.net/articles/Diseases/tsalt.php

http://www.suite101.com/content/the-man ... um-a297655

http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/20 ... riums.html

It seems as if all these articles were written to disprove myths about salt, and reccomend reasonable dosages...according to their own experiences and tests. If anyone is fish-obsessed enough to actually read these, you win my respect, whether you agree or not .
Notice, I haven't made a descision as of yet. 
Thanks everyone!!!

Manoah


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

To your reading list I'll add this: http://aquascienceresearch.com/APInfo/Salt.htm

BTW, how is your female Calvus doing? Any improvement?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't think salt helps kill or prevent the ich parasite. My understanding of the heat/salt treatment is heat speeds the life cycle of the parasite...getting it off the fish faster. And salt helps the fish breathe better in the overheated water.

I too always thought and read about the wonders of salt. But if you pay attention to the dates of your material, you might find as I did that the older material advises salt as a preventive but the more recent articles seem to question this and propose solving the root cause of the problem rather than dosing just in case.


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

Thanks for the thought jrf...she's looking a little better, and was eating today, but is plainly not her normal self. And the eye is still...well...not healed. Another WC tomorrow, and if that doesn't work, I'm going to give Melafix a try. But I was hoping that by using salt as a constant treatment, if would prevent anything like this from happening again.

DJRansome...but, wouldn't doing both be just as effective? Having salt in there always would help prevent...but in the event of an outbreak of (ick, injury...) if it got serious, I could use a different medication. Hmmm...but that wouldn't solve the problem. Cause if it just got it off the fish, it would only prolong the problem. Ick has 3 stages of life...egg form (can be dormant for a long time), free swimming, and adult form (which we see on the fish). The only time it can really be attacked is in the free swimming stage, as far as I know. The heat increase the life cycle, and then as soon as the ick is in the free swimming form, it is killed by the salt. That's at least how I've always read it worked, but maybe I'm wrong.

Been great talking to you guys,
Manoah


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## bostonjon (Sep 2, 2003)

sodium chloride irrigations are always use in Emergency Rooms to clean and irrigate wounds in humans....will not irritate wounds....however that doesn't answer the original question.........


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Still nothing here but conjecture and anectodal evidence for the medicinal use of salt. I see lots of conjecture presented as if it's fact. I also see the decision first made that 'salt is good' and next an attempt to justify coming to that decision rather than investigating it first in order to come to a conclusion next. I also see some arguments as totally illogical and all over the board.

Use it if you will, it's up to each, but in my fish room, less is more. If we hang onto old school and never question, how do we advance? Hopefully I haven't ruffled too many feathers, but instead got a few to thinking "is that really true". There's a lot of myth and snake oil out there in the hobby.


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

prov356...I think we would get along great. I refrained from actually cutting evidence to support my points...mods got mad at me on another section of the forum for 'too much debating'  . I do have a question for you though. Do you think that salt is completely ineffective as a treatment for any disease? Just clarification here. I have a feeling your a lawyer (and if your not, you should be), so I'd better shut up, before I get to into it... :lol: , but here is my million dollar question. _In your opinion, do any disadvantages presented by using salt as an aquarium additive outweigh and advantages prevented by using it? _
So far, I think you've been disproving any myths about the 'so called amazing benefits of salt' but I'm not sure if you completely think it has no uses. 
I can't believe how much I've learned in one day in the uses (or not) of salt in the aquarium.

Manoah

P.S. My humblest apologies if I presented faulty evidence. I deserve to be smacked...*smack*.


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## altocomp83 (Jan 5, 2010)

I was using salt in my fish room a lot for a long time. Then it dawned on me, Im obsessed with salt. Salt has some definate uses but if you maintain proper water parameters for the fish you keep there is absolutely no reason to use it as a constant additive. I still use it but only if I notice injury, fungus, or what look like a parasite. My general rule is on the first day do a one third water change. Day two if no improvement add 1 tablespoon of reg rock salt for every gallon. Day three wait. Day four another water change. Day five if needed determine a good medication like melafix to start trratment with


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Manoah Marton said:


> DJRansome...but, wouldn't doing both be just as effective? Having salt in there always would help prevent...but in the event of an outbreak of (ick, injury...)


But I'm not getting why you think it would help prevent? I think this is the question...does it do anything except make the fishkeeper feel virtuous and irritate the fish.

In treating ich...as I understand it...the salt does not kill or even make the parasite unhappy in any way. :thumb: It's sole purpose is to help the fish breathe (don't even know if this part is true) in the lower oxygenation that happens when you raise the temp above 84 degrees.

So unless you are keeping your temp abnormally high, as far as I know salt has no benefit and confirmed harm. The harm is irritating your fish's skin. I think I also read somewhere a study on freshwater fish (not cichlids) that were less prolific or fry had a lower survival rate or something negative when kept with "preventative levels" of NaCl.

Why risk harm for no benefit?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Do you think that salt is completely ineffective as a treatment for any disease?


Yes, how could it be effective at treating anything? We're talking sodium chloride, right? If it boosts the immune system, why aren't we experimenting with it on AIDS patients? Because you'd be laughed out of the medical community.  The only thing it can affect is osmoregulation, I'll give it that. Easing stress by easing osmoregulation has been a 'thing to do' with salt for a long time. I would think it would only be of any benefit in extreme cases where the fish was really struggling to expel water. In those cases, go ahead, but I doubt the salt's easing of osmoregulation would make any difference if the fish is on it's last legs, and the salt treatment had better be combined with a real med or parasitic control to deal with the problem.

It also can ease nitrite poisoning, but as pointed out in most of the info on that, there's probably enough in the tank already to accomplish that without adding more.

Beyond those two things, I can't think of any benefits. Proven ones anyway, and yes we can prove things without knowing all there is to know about the universe. 



> In your opinion, do any disadvantages presented by using salt as an aquarium additive outweigh and advantages prevented by using it?


If you can measure and keep track of how much you're putting in, so you don't overdose, no reason it would harm the fish. But, that could probably be said of many things in my ktichen. So, should I add some stuff just in case it might help since it won't hurt. We each get to decide that.



> I refrained from actually cutting evidence to support my points...mods got mad at me on another section of the forum for 'too much debating'


It's not like that here as long as we're civil, and I think this has been an extremely civil and interesting discussion. So please provide some back up for the claims. As I said, if salt has been proven to have medicinal qualities in aquarium fish, I'd be happy to acknowledge that. I want to learn about that also. My fish might get sick too. So, you could argue that you do the forum and the hobbyists a disservice if you hold out. Please present. If we can't disagree and debate, you seriously devalue the forum. I've been to forums where everyone tiptoes around each other and is super careful not to disagree about anything. They're not real helpful.

This salt debate has come up here many times in the 4 years I've been here, and it will come up many more times. I just like to present the other side of the story, not so much to convince someone like yourself, but for the benefit of the many that lurk and read these threads. I just want to give them both sides. The one I don't respond to might be the only one a newcomer reads.

No, I'm not a lawyer, and yes I think we'd get along fine too. :thumb:


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

I found this article to be an easy and interesting read: 
http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream ... s_2004.pdf

It's mostly focused on New World cichlids, but has some interesting thoughts on salt effects. I don't have time to chase them down, but read through the list of references for more ideas of peer-reviewed scientific research that has been done on salt in aquaculture.

I think it's important to differentiate what percentage of salinity we're discussing- a low dose ".... a few pinches of salt..." a therapeutic dose (1 TBS/5 gallons) and a very high dose typically used in a salt bath.

From my experience and from reading posts by the many members about fish illness on this site, a low dose of salt (NaCl) has no affect on disease prevention. Ich can be successfully treated with salt, and it's more than just helping the fish breath- the osmoregulatory effects of salt also act on the ich organism. While I haven't seen proof that the little buggers burst because of NaCl, many knowledgeable folks seem to think that salt hurts ich.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I found this article to be an easy and interesting read:
> http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream ... ater_Cichl ids_2004.pdf


Looks to be regarding fish tolerance and preference to salt, but he does make one statement:

_In fact, salt is known to prevent infection in wounded cichlids (Aronson 1951)_

But, I haven't been able to find the work cited. Most of Aronson's work in 1951 seems to be realted to people becoming infected by fish. I'll keep looking because I'm really wanting to know if this is true, and if so, how it works. And most importantly, what's the proper application? It may be a case where the infectious agents (certain ones only?) cannot survive in certain concentrations of salt. But again, you have to know what those concentrations are. Not knowing and just guessing at some amount of salt to throw in because it might prevent some infection is just not what I'd recommend anyone do.

Salt can burst parasites if used in high enough concentrations. You just have to know what those are and be careful it doesn't harm the fish. Salt baths are used typically and the amount of time the fish is in the bath is controlled. I've mostly heard this used for parasites other than ick though. Considering the life cycle of ick, I don't see where salt baths would be effective.

If anyone has successfully treated ick with salt and temp alone, what was the concentration used?


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Again, I don't have time to read, but here's Aronson: http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/b ... /N1484.pdf


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I searched it for any references to 'salt' and the one thing mentioned controlling the growth of fungus on a wound from a surgical procedure.

_As soon as the operations were completed, the fish were placed in individual aquaria containing approximately 5 liters of Tilapia conditioned water in which 30 grams of Louisiana rock salt had been dissolved (0.6 per cent solution). The fish remained in this salt solution until the wounds were completely healed. In previous operations it was found that although fungi grew profusely in the open wounds, this growth could be controlled completely by placing the fish in a salt solution._

So, we have a %, and a purpose. Apparently there are fungus that will grow in fresh water, but not in a .6% salt water solution. So, if someone had a fish(es) with open wounds that were susceptible to fungus infection, then I would be behind adding the fish to this salt solution. I'd just keep an eye on the fish to ensure that it could handle it.

Now, this does explain, possibly, the origin of the idea that adding salt on a regular basis as a preventative to many kinds of disease is an effective means of healing and controlling disease. I think that's a reach and those dots shouldn't be connected, but I understand how that idea may have come about. I just go back to my original position. Know the specific reason that you're adding something, anything, and be sure that you can measure the % to avoid overdosing. Just tossing in some salt on occasion as a preventative against some unknown isn't a practice that I'd advocate.

But, this has been interesting, and it's been good to nail down one or two reasons where salt may be of benefit. If anyone has more, it'd be good to note and document those here.


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

Okay...wow. This is a very hot topic right now. Here's the products of my research: (the 'impact' at the bottom of each quoted article is my explanation of the article) So...here it goes.

*Badmans Tropical Fish, Cecilia Chen:* http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article5.html 
Salt adds electrolytes, which reduce osmotic stress to the gills. This is especially important during disease, when the ability of the fish to maintain homeostasis with its surrounding water is disturbed. 
Salt can aid in the production of the slime layer and speed up the healing of some wound sites. This occurs by hyperosmolarity... fish have a certain specific gravity (concentration of total dissolved solids) in their bodily fluids, and so does the surrounding water... if the surrounding water has a slightly higher concentration, the fluids from the wound site move into the water around it, and fresh plasma goes in to replace it, creating more blood flow in that area (makes it heal faster). 
Many pathogens, such as Ichthyophthirius (the protozoan that causes "ick"), do not particularly like salt.
*Impact: Addition of salt adds electrolytes, speeds up the healing of wounds, and can help deter ick.*

*Yamato Green:* http://www.yamatogreen.com/salt.htm 
Some fish that do much better with added salt would include Goldfish, Koi, African Cichlids, and livebearers. Indeed, the secret to keeping healthy, robust Mollys, Platys, Swordtails, and Guppys is to add salt. Many Ichthyologists consider Mollys and Platys to be saltwater fish that have been adapted to freshwater, and not the other way around. Almost all health problems with Mollys disappear when salt is added. Mollys can actually thrive and reproduce readily in straight seawater. Some saltwater aquarists use Mollys as "cycle" fish in their saltwater aquariums. The usual recommended dose is 1 tablespoon of aquarium salt per 5 gallons of water. This does does not seem to harm most plants, but higher doses may. Some people keep mixed community aquariums to include both Mollys and Tetras, Platys and Corys. I have kept these fish in water with added salt for years, and have never noticed any particular problems to the Corys or Tetras, although they will not readily breed in water with any salt added. Corys and Tetras can best be bred in soft, slightly acid salt-free water, so that may be a factor for you if you wish to keep these particular species for breeding purposes. You may not want to keep Corys and Tetras intended to be bred in community tanks with added salt. Advantages of added salt include better osmosis balance for the fish (who must maintain a proper internal/external balance of water). Salt also reduces or eliminates nitrite toxicity. In a cycling tank, nitrites can be quite toxic, but not with added salt. Indeed, marine fish are completely free of worries from nitrite toxicity due to the high salt content of seawater. Experiments with nitrite levels as high as 25 ppm cause no problems for saltwater fish. A similar effect can be expected with freshwater fish, although of course we will not be adding salt at the same rate as for saltwater fish. Salt also reduces parasite infestations, since salt interferes with the life cycle of many (or most) external parasites. Salt can be used with almost any fish on a temporary basis as a therapeutic medication for most parasites, particularly Ich. Many fish cannot be treated with the usual Ich medications such as those containing Malachite Green. Tetras and Corys in particular can be seriously harmed with ordinary Ich medications. However, all fish can tolerate 1 tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons of water for the 21 days it takes to eradicate Ich. Raising the water temperature to 86-88*F is recommended to treat Ich because it speeds up the life cycle of the parasite, and also seems to create a hostile environment for the parasite, while not harming the fish. After 21 days, the temperature may be lowered by returning the heater to its previous setting and allowing the water to cool naturally. Salt may be removed by routine water changes, which will slowly dilute out all the salt, if that is your desire. Or, if you are maintaining fish that prefer salt, you can replace lost salt at the rate of 1 tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons of water changed. 
*Impact: This article says that African Cichlids tend to do better with salt in their aquariums. Also, the risk of nitrite poisoning is greatly reducedÃ¢â‚¬Â¦even if you keep up on your WCÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s, there will be times when you go on vacation, and with the addition of salt, you would not have to worry about sky-high nitrite levels. And finally, this article shows that ick can indeed be combated and eradicated using salt. This can be done by an addition of salt only during the disease treatment, but also could be kept continually, and prevent the pathogen from ever reproducing enough to cause an outbreak. These are all significant reasons to use salt in the freshwater aquarium. Especially in the case of African Cichlids.*

*Clint Norwood:* http://www.petfish.net/articles/Diseases/tsalt.php 
The use of 1 teaspoon of regular rock salt per gallon of aquarium water will do wonders for your fish. It's a sort of magic elixir for sluggish fish, it will cure or prevent most fish ailments, and I believe it helps the fish grow faster, and "live long and prosper". If your fish is really sick then I suggest adding another teaspoon of salt to make it 2 teaspoons per gallon. Salt works its magic in 3 ways, 1. parasites and other undesirables in the aquarium are adversely affected by salt, so it is a treatment and preventative for parasites. 2. Wounds heal faster with salt in the water (ever notice how sores heal faster after you swim in the ocean?) and 3. Fish being in water all day have a stressful time trying to keep the right amount of liquid in their body, salt helps the fish in this battle (liken this to the wrinkles you get after a long bath)
*Impact: Article speaks for itself. *

*Aaron Guzman*: http://www.suite101.com/content/the-man ... um-a297655 
One inescapable aspect of the fish keeping hobby is the fact that fish will become sick or injured at some point. For most fish, salt is an excellent initial treatment. Salt is essentially a natural fish medicine. Aquarium salt helps fight off bacterial infections that result from sickness or injury. It is also quite useful for treating fungal outbreaks. Salt also acts as a natural anti-parasitic. Treating water regularly with aquarium salt is an effective *preventative* measure against parasites, especially Ich. Extreme cases of parasitic outbreak or sickness, a salt bath can be prepared for the fish. For Goldfish and Koi, prepare a solution of one to two pounds of salt per five gallons of water. Using a net, submerge the fish in the solution for about 15-20 seconds. Submerging the fish for longer periods runs the risk of osmotic shock, respiratory failure, and death. For other non-brackish freshwater fish, use a solution of one-half to one pound of salt per five gallons. Salt in the aquarium also acts as a general stress reliever for freshwater fish. One to two tablespoons of aquarium salt per five gallons is usually sufficient. This is especially useful for introducing new fish to an aquarium or dealing with fish that have recently been shipped, transported, or injured.Algae is a nuisance that all aquarium owners must deal with. Algae can also be notoriously difficult to get rid of. A generous dose of salt can help kill off algae and stunt its growth. Just be cautious not to overdose the fish. Just as salt kills algae, so too can it kill plants in the aquarium. Some plants have a higher tolerance to salt than others. Exercise caution and perform the necessary research before adding salt to planted aquariums. Salt alone will not usually eliminate an algae problem, but when used in conjunction with other algae removal methods, can be very effective. Adding salt to a freshwater aquarium is an efficient preventative measure against algae growth. The presence of salt in the water will make it that much more difficult for algae to gain a foothold in the aquarium.
*Impact: As shown again, salt helps fight off bacterial infections, and fungal outbreaks. This article also says that salt will combat algae in the aquarium.*

I hope I'm not confusing you all.  
Thanks,

Manoah


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I hope I'm not confusing you all.


No, but that's all anecdotal and hobbyist opinion. You could find and fill volumes of books with that. It's all over the place. Need scientific research links.


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

> Need scientific research links.


Hmmm...I'm not sure if those actually exist. I mean, this is kinda an obscure topic. Not sure there are going to be any actual scientific research on this topic. Like I said earlier, a lot of what we hobbiest's do is because of what we've found to work, and be effective. Science can be a part of it though. My evidence that it combats ick gave why and how it combats it. But I think that's about as scientific as it's gonna get. 
So far, if I've been reading this right, we have all agreed that salt should be used as a temporary anti-fungus medication, because of that test they did. Therefore, the only thing we are debating on is whether or not to use it as a preventative (permanent) addition to the aquarium.

One more thing. This is going to sounds kinda cheesy, but unless you can directly refute my evidence, it stands as legitimate. Just saying it someone's opinion isn't enough. Cause I have evidence from many different sites, from several respectable persons (might I say experts) on the subject. Therefore, it stands unless there is counter-evidence. I will accept anyones person experiences as couter-evidence.

Thanks,
Manoah


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> One more thing. This is going to sounds kinda cheesy, but unless you can directly refute my evidence, it stands as legitimate. Just saying it someone's opinion isn't enough. Cause I have evidence from many different sites, from several respectable persons (might I say experts) on the subject. Therefore, it stands unless there is counter-evidence. I will accept anyones person experiences as couter-evidence.


I don't know how to respond to that, so I'll leave you to your thread now.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Manoah Marton said:


> we have all agreed that salt should be used as a temporary anti-fungus medication


I don't think we have agreed on that due to a single study. I would not recommend this (say to someone they "should" use salt) since IMO there are more effective anti-fungus treatments. 



Manoah Marton said:


> cheesy, but unless you can directly refute my evidence, it stands as legitimate. Just saying it someone's opinion isn't enough.


Whatever works for you Manoah, it's not standing very well for me though. :thumb:


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I have been lurking on this thread from the start.

I did a quick search on a couple of expensive databases that I have access to because of school, most of the hits are pertaining to food fish. I am willing to bet there has been studies on the subject. I will check later when I have more time to dig.

I don't think hobbyist websites (especially retail stores) should be considered evidence. I understand this is not scientific, but you still need to search for dependable sources. Their opinions are no different than prov's or DJ's.

Very interesting thread, enjoyed reading through it.

:thumb:


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

Okay...everythings getting to...serious. I have bigger problems right now (my backyard is full of water due to severe rains) so everyone have a Merry Christmas!!!

Manoah


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

good grief. ahud posted just after I put up my last comment...ohwell, so much for that. 



> I don't think hobbyist websites (especially retail stores) should be considered evidence. I understand this is not scientific, but you still need to search for dependable sources. Their opinions are no different than prov's or DJ's.


yes I agree. EXCEPT, the people who wrote these threads have, to their own standards, tested salt. and then published their experiences. like I said, I WILL accept personal opinions as counter evidence, because I realize this. but, so far, neither have said anything like "i used salt and the problem got worse" or "nothing changed" or "fish died" or something. all that was said was theoretical disdvantages. but I presented evidence saying that salt did present some advantages

one more thing. I'm not technically on either side. but...by filling the 'gap' for someone who would be supporting using salt as a medicinal remidy, we could get a good debate going, and really hear some facts. prov356, I like the way you challenge things many people take as 'fact'. That is a very good trait to have.

I'm looking forward to what you can find ahud. 

Manoah


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## Tshethar (Jul 20, 2009)

I admit that this thread took a weird turn just now, but I've found it interesting, and appreciate the materials brought forward. [Edit: started writing a few posts ago--  --seems back on track!] I personally read some of the older threads on salt over the last year and chose to stop adding it to my Tanganyikan tanks, with no regrets. (Previously, I had used aquarium salt as a matter of course with freshwater tanks in the early 90s.)

Three points or questions:

1) On authoritative sources: while I really appreciate anecdotal evidence as part of the value of a site like this--and it really is great to hear about that one person who modified their filter in just such a way as to produce results they love--there is a big difference between assertions made on various websites versus those made in scientific journals, peer-reviewed publications, or (to a lesser extent) in other public forums by accredited researchers who performed experiments and reported their results (and risk their professional reputations in the process.) Of course, we can rightly question who funded their work, do they stand to benefit financially from what they report, etc., but in general these kind of sources really should carry much more weight than any other data source, especially now that anyone with an aquarium and a computer (myself included) can make public claims, or repeat (with or without citation) the claims of others. Now that we're in the "Information Age," the problem is less about finding information than it is about figuring out where it's coming from and how reliable its sources are. (And I agree that the age of the publication can matter a lot. If 1951 is the most recent controlled study we can find confirming some benefit from salt, well, I'm just not sure I'm persuaded. One would think there must be some more recent work, perhaps from those in the aquaculture industry.)

2) On nitrite poisoning: Maybe I misunderstood the link from rtf, but it sounded to me as though none of our fish should really ever suffer from nitrite poisoning. This can't be right, can it? Does salt help here? Does a good water conditioner really prevent all nitrite problems for fish in a re-cycling tank? I didn't know what to make of this.

3) On Seachem's Tanganyikan salts: I haven't gone recently to look at their website, but in general they have a good reputation for their products. I stopped using their cichlid salts after I joined the forum--with no apparent ill effects--but for Tangs in particular, do the Seachem people have any good science behind these products that would recommend them? How much of it is really about buffering capacity, or depends on trace elements and other additives other than NaCl?


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

Very interesting post. I apologize if the thread has turned into an evidence competition.

The purpose of this thread was to see if salt was or was not beneficial to the freshwater Tanganyika aquarium. Frankly, I learned a lot, but the questions has not been solved, and I believe the key reason is this. Because this is a rather obscure topic, not many scientific tests have been done on this. It's too specialized for many people to have looked into. I wanted to know if salt would increase health, not neccessarily buffer the water. And, unfortunatly, it seems that there are just as many people who think it works, as it doesn't. I think there is only one way to solve this. Scratch that, there IS only one way to solve this,and that is for someone to find a test on this subject. Right now, it's too 'he thinks' 'she thinks' for any real proof. I do realize that my evidence was not the best. But, it was the best I could find, and like I brought up earlier, a lot of what we do is what we individiually think will work best for our fish. There will be disagreement, there will be controversy. But at the end of the day, it's what each individual believes to be the most beneficial. It seems that prov356 and DJ are against salt usage. They are entitled to that belief and their are valid arguments on that side. But Razzo and others I've talked to think otherwise. They too are entitled to those beliefs, and to carry them out. I have chosen neither side yet. Both seems to have advantages and disadvantages, and need to be weighed accordingly. I wish I had 2 tang tanks to test, one with salt, and one without, but I do not. Thanks for your input everyone...prov356, DJ, Razzo, and the rest. If anyone does find a test that was performed confirming or negating the benefits (or lack thereof) of salt, I would be much interested to read it. 
Well, off to waterchange land with me!

Manoah


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> If 1951 is the most recent controlled study we can find confirming some benefit from salt, well, I'm just not sure I'm persuaded. One would think there must be some more recent work, perhaps from those in the aquaculture industry


I don't think many are willing to spend the funds to do the research for aquarium fish. So, I agree that not much will be found unless it's in relation to fish farming.



> 2) On nitrite poisoning: Maybe I misunderstood the link from rtf, but it sounded to me as though none of our fish should really ever suffer from nitrite poisoning. This can't be right, can it? Does salt help here? Does a good water conditioner really prevent all nitrite problems for fish in a re-cycling tank? I didn't know what to make of this.


It's my understanding that salt can help, but is limited as far as what levels it can deal with. So there's a limit to how much nitrite it can detox. So, yes, fish can still die from nitrite poisoning even if salt is added to the water.



> do the Seachem people have any good science behind these products that would recommend them? How much of it is really about buffering capacity, or depends on trace elements and other additives other than NaCl?


I've never seen any. Their bottom line depends on our believing we need what they sell. The need for trace element threads have come up once in a while just like the need for salts question. Only anecdotal evidence for that also, but that's another topic.


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## marvo (Nov 24, 2010)

*hands on advice prob. wouldn't even help folks make a decision on this.... but this is not advice it's what i have done for many years in many tanks... used salt but only when changing water...*


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## Wetman (Jul 1, 2010)

Wow Manoah, this thread has really taken off. I wonder- with all your time responding to everyones' comments, did you ever try the salt bath on your Calvus? Probably would have proven (at least to you) the benefit of salt in treating fish injuries. I've used salt as a healing tonic in conjunction with antibiotics or sulphur medications for injuries and fungal problems. On the other hand, I don't add salt to prevent anything. I add epsom salt if my water test shows my water is too soft but I don't add salt as a disease preventative. I have never understood that salt prevents anything- just that it helps healing. You might try the salt next time and see if it helps. You might see the answer you seek. Happy New Year !:dancing:


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

thanks...maybe next time. and if I did...I wouldn't say it, because I think a lot of people would feel dissed. there were some pretty strong opinions on here. but thanks again everyone! the calvus is 90% better, and improving every day.

Manoah Marton


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

Manoah Marton said:


> the calvus is 90% better, and improving every day.


That's all that really matters.


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