# Need help in ID'ing this Pike Cichlid



## SOUPNAZZI (Oct 13, 2010)

I've been advised it's a Female Saxatilis. I undetrstand there's also 41 sub-species we know of
Can you tell me which one ?


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Well it's definately from the saxatiline group of pike cichlids, but I really doubt it's a Crenicichla saxatilis. Looking at pictures in "aqualog south american cichlids 1" it looks very much like the pictures of female Crenicichla cardiostigma.

V. kutty considers C. cardiostigma to possibly be a synonym of C. alta, though the Cichlid room companion still considers it as a seperate species. V. kutty has a key for identification under Pikes of the saxatilis group ------ Clearly ocelated humeral blotch: C. anthrus, C. frenata, C.alta (C. cardiostigma), and C. albopuncta. As well, there is also a picture of a male C. alta in the crenicichla species list. http://pikecichlid.com/articles.html


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## clgkag (Mar 22, 2008)

Alta is what I thought it was when I saw it the other place you had it posted. Unfortunately I suck at iding saxitalis group pikes so I didn't say anything. When DwarfPike gets on here, he may have more of an idea.


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## SOUPNAZZI (Oct 13, 2010)

Here's two more pics

Tip of the dorsal fin is red in color


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Well, at least one of the C. cardiostigma pikes shown in Aqualog South American Cichlids 1 has red at the tip of the dorsal fin. As well, the fin markings of the females, match pretty closely , if not identicle. The coloration of your fish, is pretty much the same as the females shown in this book. Few pikes have a red marking below the eye, such as your fish pocesses -----all 4 of the C. cardiostigma shown, clearly exhibit a red marking below the eye, though not quite as much as your fish

The high humeral blotch of C. cardiostigma, while not peculiar to this species, is in the very same spot or posiotion to that of your fish.A good portion of it is above the lateral line. Most saxtilis- type pikes have a much lower humeral spot, such as C. saxatilis, that sits mostly, if not entirely below the lateral line. As well, the humeral blotch is clearly ocelated ---- not so with a lot of saxatilines.

One has to bear in mind that every body of water has a slightly different fish, so that an EXACT match may not be possible unless it's being compared to a fish with the very same collection point. Not only that, but some species can be quite variable from one individual to another. IMO, it's a very close match to the fish shown as C. cardiostigma in Aqualog South American cichlids 1. Wether or not C. cardiostigma is a seperate and valid species or simply a regional variant of C. alta is another question altogether. I use the Cichlid Room Companion as a refernce, so if, and until they change the classification, I would still regard it as seperate species.


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## SOUPNAZZI (Oct 13, 2010)

Thanks Bernie.

If I would be interested in breeding,, I would have to get a male of the same correct?
I would think it would be difficult to find a male C. cardiostigma ...


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

SOUPNAZZI said:


> If I would be interested in breeding,, I would have to get a male of the same correct?
> I would think it would be difficult to find a male C. cardiostigma ...


Yes. And on top of that, with out knowing it's collection point, it would probably be very difficult to say with certainty whether the fish is C. cardiostigma rather then C. alta --- assuming of course that these really are different species. Not to mention the fact that now days, the way ichthyologists like to classify fishes , any population of fish from a different body of water is potentially an undescribed species :lol:

Just a further note, the lack of "spangling" on the body, particularily for females, is also consistent with C. cardiostigma/C alta. Many saxatilis -type pikes have a lot of "spangles" on the body ----- hence the name Spangled pikes in refernce to this group of fish.


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## SOUPNAZZI (Oct 13, 2010)

Thanks Bernie for your help

We can only hope that eventually the collection location of these pikes will be revealed.
Until then I can stick with female C. Cardiostigma.

Possible collection location

Crenicichla cardiostigma Ploeg, 1991: 26, fig. 18. Type locality:
Brazil, State of Roraima, Rio ***** system, Rio Branco, IgarapÃƒÂ©
TraÃƒÂ­ra Montante, at Cachoeira Peudas. Holotype: INPA 2916.

this is from http://www.svenkullander.se/publication ... e_2003.pdf
Perform a search for "cardiostigma"


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

SOUPNAZZI said:


> Crenicichla cardiostigma Ploeg, 1991: 26, fig. 18. Type locality:
> Brazil, State of Roraima, Rio ***** system, Rio Branco, IgarapÃƒÂ©
> TraÃƒÂ­ra Montante, at Cachoeira Peudas. Holotype: INPA 2916.


Right. Rio Branco, Brazil is the type locality for C. cardiostigma. Gluck island, Guyana is the type locality of C. alta. If it comes from another body of water it might be difficult to say which species it is , as it is possible that it is another undescribed species instead.

But the question is the collection point of your fish :lol: , not where the various species of Crenicichla were first desribed. Unless you where given that info at the time of purchase, you would have no way of knowing. What that leaves you with is a fish that is probably C. cardiostigma (or C. alta) because it fits that type ------ but could also just as easily be a very closely related, undesribed species, as the collection point of your fish,( as far I understand), is unknown.


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## SOUPNAZZI (Oct 13, 2010)

IgarapÃƒÂ© TraÃƒÂ­ra Montante ?


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## SOUPNAZZI (Oct 13, 2010)

IgarapÃƒÂ© TraÃƒÂ­ra Montante ÃƒÂ Cachoeira Peudas, Rio Branco, bassin Rio *****, BrÃƒÂ©sil ?

Most likely the LFS is being supplied by a fish farm in Florida.
I spoke to an employee who specializes in Cichlids of that LFS, and he says it happens from time to time where an unknow Pike Cichlid is included in the shipment. More than likely they are wild and sent to the farm in Florida


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## Scatocephalus (Mar 26, 2003)

Your fish is a female _Cr. anthurus_. _Anthurus_ are one of the few pikes that exhibit a well defined humeral ring. Here are some pics of mine.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Scatocephalus said:


> Your fish is a female _Cr. anthurus_.


That could very well be. Cr. anthrus was the only other species I considered it to be , besides C. cardiostgma/C. alta. But I based it on the pictures in "aqualog south american cichlids 1", and considered the fish in question to more likely be C. cardiostigma for the following reasons: the humeral blotch apears to be even higher up and farther away from the top of the gill plate opening; even more red below the eye; red at the tip of the dorsal fin; and more similar markings and coloration on the fins (in comparison to the C. anthrus shown in the aqualog).

I would be curious to know what are the distinguishing characteristics between Cr. anthrus, Cr. cardiostigma and Cr. alta, besides different collection points. Not only the females, but even some pictures of the males of these species apear to be very similar, if not virtually the same.


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## Scatocephalus (Mar 26, 2003)

bernie comeau said:


> Scatocephalus said:
> 
> 
> > Your fish is a female _Cr. anthurus_.
> ...


While Aqualog is a great starting point as reference material you can go through that publication and find dozens of misidentified fish. I would not rely on Aqualog as my sole means of identification.

You would need to find the original description of each fish to determine without doubt what you have.


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## Scatocephalus (Mar 26, 2003)

I've checked several publications and most all agree that cardiostigma is a synonym of alta. They are one and the same fish.


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## SOUPNAZZI (Oct 13, 2010)

Thanks for the ID,

In the spring I will be looking for a male...


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=373192

I see from this thread, you have jumped to the conclusilon that it is Cr. anthrus. Could be.
But I would be very curious to know how you have determined it is NOT:
1) Cr. alta 
2) Cr. cardiostigma (and never mind if you regard it as a synonym of Cr. alta, call the fish Crenicichla alta "rio Branco" if you like)
3)Crenicichla sp.'alta'(a potentially undescribed species)
or
4) an undescribed species

If your fish had come with a male I think you would probably be justified in thinking they are of the same species and then could breed them. It then may not be quite as critical in making absolutely certain what species you have.

There are at least 3 noticeable differences between your fish and Scatocephalus's pike:
1) the red coloration on the dorsal fin
2)Postorbital marking ---your fish has white outline on top and bottom; Scatocephalus' pike doesn't
3) the blue on the caudal and anal fin. Your fish is lacking in comparison. Described on Scatocephalus' fish in this thread here:http://www.cichlidae.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2878 Scatocephalus' fish is like the Cr. anthrus shown in the aqualog.

Are these differences of particular individuals? Age differences? Differences between regional variants? Or are they differences between species?

Is your plan to sell/distribute fry? If so, the responsible thing would be to make absolutely certain your not distributing hybrids. If you can obtain the numbers, a spine and ray count might be usefull in making certain what you have........ assuming the numbers don't greatly overlap between these species.


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## SOUPNAZZI (Oct 13, 2010)

Sorry for jumping to conclusions

So I still have an unknown female pike then

I don't have the pike yet and I'm already getting frustrated. 
And I'm not interested in Cross breeding.
I'll just get ride of her in the spring

Sorry for wasting your time...


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

[quote="SOUPNAZZI"
Sorry for wasting your time... [/quote]

No, your definately not wasting anybody's time 

Pike cichlids can be quite a challange to identify. With out a known collection point, sometimes it's very, very difficult to narrow it down to just one species. But I do think it's narrowed down to either Cr. alta or Cr. anthrus (and very close relatives, described and undescribed, of both of these species). The postion of the humeral spot, and some other traits, leads me to think it is PROBABLY Cr. alta or it's very close realatives. But I'm not at all confident in saying "IT IS______".

There is still the possibility of using meristics do determine what you have. It's not really too dificult to count rays and spines. It has been very usefull for me in the past, with CA/SA cichlids in confirming what I have. Though I am not too sure how usefull it would be for these saxatiline pikes.

From what I understand from thread(s) on MFK, there were more of these fishes for sale innitially (?). Maybe somebody else around the Mississauga area has a male; if you know when and what LFS the fish was purchased from. Ask around.....maybe at the LFS or local aquarium society.

But, if one is intent on breeding cichlids, usually you are best off to start off with a group.


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