# dying Cichlids



## jfgino (Apr 1, 2009)

Hello,
I have a 72 gallon tank that is about 8 months old with 2 Oscars, a Pictus Cat, Jack Dempsey, Knife Fish, Green Terror, BumbleBee and Red Zebra. Recently I have been losing fish and they have been acting very strange before they die. I've lost a green Terror, Dempsey, Bumble Bee, Pleco and have another Green Terror that is acting the same way the others did. Symptoms: They will swim at the top of the tank on their sides or dart around the tank from a hiding spot then stop. Th fish sometimes look like they are gasping for air. I have had the water tested and it had a very high PH ~8.6 but everything else was ok including the Ammonia. The tank was originally filled with well water. I bought PH down yesterday and started to use it then someone suggested using API Proper PH 7.5. I put it in the tank last night and the tank immediately got cloudy, which the information on the box said would happen with hard water. This morning the Green Terror was acting the same way as the others. I took a dip strip reading this morning and the PH was about 7.5 and everything else on the stip looked to be okay and it now reads soft water. I have recently changed about 10% of the water and replaced it with soft water and have changed the filter. Also, since I've had the tank the water will occasionally get cloudy.

What could be killing the fish? Could it be some heavy metals in the well water? I have a water softener so I could completely replace the water with soft water if I had to. 
Help!,
jfgino


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

Way too many fish in that tank. It will be barely big enough for the two oscars alone. Sounds like ammonia poisoning. What are the ammonia and nitrite readings?

Do not use products like proper Ph. They can cause huge swings in the ph which will kill fish outright. It is way better for the fish to be at a stable ph than at some "perfect number".

A ph of 8.6 is just fine for the fish you listed.


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

You also need to get some API test kits rather than relying on strips, which are not very accurate.

You have an awkward mix of fish, including New World i.e. Oscar and Old World i.e. zebra. You really should pick one and stick with it. I believe there are pH differences in preference between some of the fish you have as well. So it's not just that too many fish, but wrong fish.


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## jfgino (Apr 1, 2009)

I don't have the ammonia reading but I had it done in a store last night and they said it was fine. I took the nitrite this morning and it looked to be between 0 and 0.5 but this was using a dip strip and it was hard to tell if it was actually 0.5. Also, I do have an ammonia filter. Since I already put the proper PH in what do you think I should do?


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

I would do a couple of partial water changes, say about 30% each time. Do them a couple of hours a part to lessen the shock. The dip stick type tests are worthless. When you get a chance, get a liquid reagent kit (API makes a really nice Master kit that pretty cheap). I would be wary of the store readings. They have been known to consider up to .5ppm as just fine.


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## jfgino (Apr 1, 2009)

Great I'll change the water tonight and look into the test kit. I have another question about the number of fish and types. What do you think about the 1Gal/Inch rule? Right now all the fish I put in the tank are around 4". I didn't have all the fish I listed in the tank at the same time. As some died I replaced them with new ones. And how about mixing Cichlids? I would like to have smaller African and South Americans together. Like a Bumblebee, Red Zebra, Jack Dempsey, Green Terror. They seemed to be okay together as long as there are plenty of hiding places. They each kind of staked their own territory and didn't seem to bother each other to much. The Oscars are also small right now but I know they will grow. I would take them out if the others were okay together. Have you ever heard of anyone mixing Cichlids like this?


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

The 1gal/inch rule does not work with cichlids. It barely work for tropical communities like mollies and swordtails. The social dynamics and aggression levels of cichlids requires much more careful planning. Take a look at the cookie cutter suggestions for you tank size in the library section. Most people will say that a 72 (pretty close to a 75) is only big enough for a single oscar.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/cookie_cutter_75g.php

With cichlids (especially the aggressive one -of which all of yours are considered) volume means nothing. its all about the real estate, the footprint. Height is unimportant.


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## jfgino (Apr 1, 2009)

I'll check it out. Should I replace the water in the tank with soft water or hard water?


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

What is it right out of your tap? The fish you have come from areas with ph around 8-8.2, though unless you bought wild caught fish they are likely to have been raised in water between 7.5 and 8.

What is important is to have the ph where ever you can keep it the most stable (ie least amount of fiddling). SO figuring out what comes out of the tap is first.


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## jfgino (Apr 1, 2009)

I have well water with a water softener. It looks like the PH is around 8.6 coming out of the well but I can check it better tonight. I have a PH test kit from API in addition to the strips. The well water just gets passed through the softener to the tap so I can use either soft or hard water. From what I've read the Africans are used to hard water so I guess I should use that? Is there any way to control the ammonia other then changing the water? I bought an ammonia API test kit last night but haven't used it yet. I'll staert to monitor it more closely. If this happens again should I rely on changing the water to lower the ammonia?


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

The straight well water will be fine. There should be no ammonia in a fully cycled aquarium. The bacteria in the filter media convert it first to nitrite then to the less harmful nitrate. The nitrate can only be removed through water changes. If you are reading ammonia then your tank is not cycled. What filter are you using?

You should read the article in the library section about the nitrogen cycle. It goves over how the filter actually works. It is the cornerstone of fishkeeping

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/cycling.php


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## jfgino (Apr 1, 2009)

It's a Fluval canister filter for a 100Gal tank.


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

The filter media should have all the needed beneficial bacteria to keep you ammonia and nitrite levels at zero. 40-50% water changes should be done weekly or so to keep the resulting nitrates below 20ppm.


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## jfgino (Apr 1, 2009)

Thanks this has been really helpfull. I'll get the kit and start monitoring these levels very closely. I'll also change the water more frequently.


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

And I would seriously change the stocking in this tank. As the fish reach sexual maturity, you will have a massive meltdown.

Good Luck


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

> I would like to have smaller African and South Americans together


very bad idea for a number of reasons.

I think a long trip into this forum's library will be very helpful to you. not only can you learn about species (to mix or not to mix) but also what cycling means, how to more appropriately buffer water, when that might be necessary and when not, etc. You should also read up on quarantining, because it sounds like you're planning on adding new fish to existing tank and that will cause you more grief in the long run.


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## jfgino (Apr 1, 2009)

I think when I go home tonight I'll probably be down to the Oscars, Cat and Knife. If I go with only Africans with a max size of 6-7" how many do you think I can have in this tank?


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

That will completely depend on the species you choose. The fish from the three lakes are quite different in temperment and how they should be housed. Some are pairing fish, while other are harem fish (1 male with 3-5 females of a single species). Some species co-habitate well, others are like water and electricity.


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