# Advantages of a canister?



## rogue-ish (Aug 16, 2007)

I have a 55 gallon all male hap and peacock tank. currently i have a hob double biowheel because i never had the tank crowded enough to worry about insufficient filtration. now with these new fish (i like to think of them as my children :lol: ) i have to have the aquarium overstocked and im starting to worry about sufficient filtration. is there a justifiable advantage to a cannister? or will a hob be okay?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

A canister isn't necessarily better at filtration than a HOB. A canister can do more biofiltration if it 
holds more biomedia, it can do better at mechanical filtration if it's more powerful (more gph, but 
most aren't), and can provide more room for chemical filtration, which usually isn't needed.

If you need more filtration, just add another filter, any kind will do. The only reason you'd need 
to add a second filter, regardless of which kind, would be if you started to experience ammonia or 
nitrite spikes and you needed more biofiltration than the single filter could provide. If you just 
need more water movement to help oxygenate the water, a power head is great for that. If you 
need more mechanical filtration, up the water change and substrate vacuuming schedule.

I used to see canisters as a step up from HOB's, but don't any more. It just has different 
strengths and weaknesses, as do most filters. A canister with a moderate flow used mainly for 
biofiltration along with a more powerful HOB used for water circulation and mechanical filtration 
is a nice combo. So, if you decide to add the canister, keep the HOB.


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## RyanR (Apr 29, 2008)

A canister is a little more flexible in some ways... you can fill it your favorite mechanical, chemical, and/or bio media and run a UV sterilizer on the return. Of course, a drawback to canisters is that there's not necessarily a bypass should the filter clog...so as the filter gets loaded up, the flow can decrease significantly. HOB's don't have this problem: if the filter clogs, a HOB filter will still circulate the water at it's full rating...

No reason you can't run both: We run both a HOB (Emperor 400's) and canisters (Magnum 350 Pro's) on both of our tanks. The Emperor's are great work horses... and the Magnums let us alternate between polishing and standard filters. Two filters give us redundancy should one fail.

-Ryan


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## spotmonster (Nov 23, 2006)

-Cans will enable you to put the tank closer to the wall.
-Cans will lower evaporation rate (which could be a good or bad thing) meaning don't wait till the water gets too low to do your maintainance. 
-Cans have the potential to be generally quieter as far as water noise, though this vary's greatly.

HOB's are excellent! All personal opinion really.

One thing I do despise are small HOB's. I would advise to always go big on HOB's. Another of the same one you have should filer that 55 very nicely.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

All of the above are true, in terms of price and filtration capacity I think most reasonable forms of filtration can be considered about equal. I think the sole advantage of a cannister is noise. In general, you will not have a filter that is quieter than a cannister.


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## Denny (Sep 27, 2008)

I made a DIY wet/dry internal tank filter for my 90g community. It's 8" x 8" x 21" with a Jun HX-5000 power head; min 1500 L/H to max 2000 L/H. Used PVC pipe to make a platform over the power head wihich has 5 clay bricks for wgt. topped with a cut up fish divIder into two inner 8" x 8" pcs for section dividers. Above the power head there are 40 bio balls which I have contained with the other 8" x 8" fish divider; above this are 3 more clay bricks with a layer of floss; followed on top with a 8" x 8" x 1" sponge; on top of this I have a 8" x 3" x 2" shower sponge which is used as a bio filter never changed and always replaced after filter changes. The return flow is pointed upwards. The filter water forces both clean filter and other tank water back into the filter. It's flow forces and causes water back into the filter; to both sides of the tank and tank top surface making a surface wave movement. The inner filter sits 6 " from the tank walls on the left, front and back sides. The tank is 48" x 20" x 21.5". Across from the inner wet/dry filter I have another 1500 L/H power head with a air pump line to its venturi that forces water back to the filter from the lower middle right side of the tank. This provides a current the cichlids like to swim against and movement of unfilter water from the tank right side. Have no algae problems, happy/healthy fish and no excess food being sucked up back into the filter because the water flow causes food to always stay on the right side of the tank. Its 65 residents anyway never allow it to even settle to the tank floor. No problems of overflow or any noise. Here's a pic:


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## parkayandbutter (Jan 15, 2008)

Canisters........ Huh, let me tell you. I personally think that they are the worst designed by far of any aquarium product. I have yet to have one person truely say they are a joy. They work I suppose if you have an understocked small aquarium, but other then that they are junk in it's self.

Tell me when you know it's dirty and needs cleaning. Oh wait it does when the aquarium is dirty.

Oh the joys of disassemble. Are you kidding me....... What a mess. Water everywhere. Where do you get the replacement pieces....... Oh yah a reall Joy pain as well as expense.

Canisters are rated flow of what.......... Oh yah they do it empty so you have no true knowing of what you need. I know I have heard people say they have as many as 3 canisters on an aquarium. Why? Cause they don't do a descent job perhaps........ u think they are wonderful huh?

Huh..... you have to prime this......... Kidding me right........ Oh no I am not. 
OH NO it's not sealed and it's leaking water.........

Yah, Truely a Wonderful piece of equipment.

I've built 3 wet dry filters in my neighborhood and I am telling you everyone does agree it's wonderful just pulling out the filter floss tray, grabbing it, tossing it in the garbage, putting another one in and sliding it back in place. A whopping 10 seconds! I tell you this all while it's operational.

:dancing: Yah for Canisters =D>

Stick with HOB filters. 2 of them. Here is a Tip get a roll of 25"widex10foot long x1"thick filter Media roll off of Ebay for 20 bucks with shipping and be done with your filter expense for a year with HOB. Cut the filter pad you need like 10 of them. Just grab the old stuff toss it and then replace it. [/list]


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## TrashmanNYC (Dec 10, 2007)

*** been running a penguin 200 and a penguin 350 on my 46g for almost a year with no problems..........

Robb


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## AquaTester55 (Aug 16, 2006)

> Canisters........ Huh, let me tell you. I personally think that they are the worst designed by far of any aquarium product. I have yet to have one person truely say they are a joy. They work I suppose if you have an understocked small aquarium, but other then that they are junk in it's self. * - They work fantastic for overstock aquariums. They work A LOT better than any HOB ot there*
> 
> Tell me when you know it's dirty and needs cleaning. Oh wait it does when the aquarium is dirty. * - Never has happend to me. I check mine every 3-6 months and my tank is never dirty when i do. I have an good stocked Mbuna 55 Gallon aquarium with an Fx5. I also have a Fluval 304 on a 29 tropical tank.*
> 
> ...


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## JWerner2 (Jul 7, 2008)

My canisters are a joy!

The work better than any HOB I have ever had and have been way more reliable in every way!

Someone is just not buying the right ones!

parkayandbutter, those are some of the dumbest things I have ever read to this date!

Any filter can leak and by the way I have had and seen many more HOB's leak more than I have Can's ( dont think I ever had a Magnum leak ). How many filters in general do not honestly need to prime one way or another, some say the dont need it and yes they might not but eventually as they wear they will. Mags? Mine never need to be primed, never leak, and you can very easily see when they need to be cleaned!

THEY ARE CLEAR!!!


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## JWerner2 (Jul 7, 2008)

Also, you can add as many extra filters as you wish if you feel one isn't working-as long as you also think your fish like to be smacked around off of the glass and rock work.


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## AquaTester55 (Aug 16, 2006)

prov356 said:


> A canister isn't necessarily better at filtration than a HOB. A canister can do more biofiltration if it
> holds more biomedia, it can do better at mechanical filtration if it's more powerful (more gph, but
> most aren't), and can provide more room for chemical filtration, which usually isn't needed.


I disagree. Canisters are much better than HOBs at mechanical filtration. Most canisters are bypas free and can handle small partical filtration without, bypassing or overflowing. This means more water flow is forced through the media than around it. HOBs would allow a lot of the flow around the media. Canister pumps are designed to handle and create pressure where HOB filters are designed for VERY VERY little pressure. This means more flow is forced through the mechanical media even when the media is becoming dirty. This won't happen with HOBs

AC110 for example. So called 500 GPH which I call BS anyways. If you have small partical filtration pads in the Ac110s, 10-15% of the flow can easily bypass around the media or overflow the media. The more dirty the pad is, the more of the flow is redirected around the media. So insteaf of 500 GPH going through the media, you may only get 400-450 GPH through the media instead or even lower.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

JWerner2 said:


> My canisters are a joy!
> 
> parkayandbutter, those are some of the dumbest things I have ever read to this date!


I would have to agree with both of those statements. I love cannisters.

- They do a more than adequate job of filtration. And in some respects better than an HOB. For a practical standpoint you don't see too many people unhappy with the performance of their cannister - they are popular for a reason.

- They are super easy to clean relative to their filtration ability. Obviously some of the bigger ones can be bulky and heavy, but their volume is directly correlated to their filtration ability - and precisely the reason why you bought it in the first place. Basically a cannister is a pump in a bucket. Because of the fact that it self contained I think makes it the easiest filter type to clean.

- They are beautifully quiet. I can't say enough about that. I don't think there is any other filter type that can match that quality with the same price/performance/effort factor.

What else can you ask for in a filter?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Most canisters are bypas free


Not true, some have built in bypass. Ask Rena. There are others I hear, but that one I have first hand 
experience with, and also confirmed with Rena support. It's there so the flow doesn't come to a stop 
when users leave them so long they're gunked up beyond belief.



> HOBs would allow a lot of the flow around the media.


You're assuming poorly maintained or improperly installed media. Can't do that for a fair comparison.



> Canister pumps are designed to handle and create pressure where HOB filters are designed
> for VERY VERY little pressure.


Canisters are also designed for very little flow. If it doesn't get to the intake, it doesn't do mechanical 
filtration. Canisters are designed for biofiltration that doesn't require a lot of flow. Yes, they'll also 
pull in some detritus, and yes, it looks like they're doing a bang up job when only opened every few 
months.



> This means more flow is forced through the mechanical media even when the media is
> becoming dirty.


Also means flow slows even more, so even less gets pulled in. Again, if it doesn't get pulled in, it 
doesn't do mechanical.



> So called 500 GPH which I call BS anyways.


Unlike the accurate flow ratings given for canisters? :roll:

My statement that HOB's are better at mechanical is based on the higher flow (whether it's up to 
ratings or not). The more current, the longer particles stay suspended, and the stronger the intake, 
the better chance they get pulled into the intake. Of course there also needs to be proper media 
that's maintained properly.

And of course, that's a generality. There are strong flow canisters that can beat smaller HOB's.

Good discussion though.


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## parkayandbutter (Jan 15, 2008)

I typed what my experience has been as well as 2 other people. I am here to tell you that has been my experience with them. Here is my wet dry experience. I can tell when the filter needs to be changed out. The water overfills the media tray. In my experience convenience of grabbing and tossing a filter media sheet and replacement in under 10 seconds is way worth my time then tearing apart something and running it over the faucet squeezing it clean packing it in place and all the following of the above I listed.

Sure people like them, but my opinion I am entitled to. My above comment I would not change for one bit. The fx5 how many people have them much less afford them? You can purchase a wet dry for 140 buck with a pump and have the same simplicity as I do. Simplicity! that's my case.


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## JWerner2 (Jul 7, 2008)

Then I assume you wouldn't change your routine either which is what lead to your dislike. A poor misunderstanding and horrible routine.

Canisters are the best there is next to a wet-dry.

HOB's suck for all reasons mentioned above and those are all 100% true reasons not just opinions! They do bypass and no its not do to media not being changed its do to media with not enough surface space!

And to think that a contained unit would not out filter a HOB is just, I dont know I dont wanna say stupid but I dont know what other words to use!



> Canisters are also designed for very little flow. If it doesn't get to the intake, it doesn't do mechanical
> filtration. Canisters are designed for biofiltration that doesn't require a lot of flow. Yes, they'll also
> pull in some detritus, and yes, it looks like they're doing a bang up job when only opened every few
> months.


What are you talking about? Canisters are designed to achieve much more GPH! Give me some examples beside the AC that does as much as a canister does! Thats just nuts to say that. And they get just as much in the intake as a HOB. Can you explain the science behind why they wont?



> Also means flow slows even more, so even less gets pulled in. Again, if it doesn't get pulled in, it
> doesn't do mechanical.


The same goes for a HOB but with a HOB not only will it slow but IT WILL bypass and slow!

If you cant take the time to get off a lazy ass and clean a filter then that is the only reason why one should not decide on a canister! Other than that they are by far superior to a HOB!


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Getting aggressive, launching personal attacks, and name calling tend to ruin a good thread. 

Oh well, it *was *a good discussion, but I'm not going to be taken down the road you're going down.

Take care.


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## JWerner2 (Jul 7, 2008)

None of my comments that may be seen as offensive were directed towards any one person buddy.

My points and the points of others that stand by FACTS have been proven.

Also, you say that they only do bio-filtration? False.

Most are designed for 3 stages of filtration and in actuality the bio-filtration is lesser of the 3 in a canister filter. My Magnum 350 and any Magnum 350 will out mechanically filter ANY HOB out on the market and if you take the time with one within 1 day you will literally see the difference. If you dont like the media Marineland sells with them you can easily use other medias that lots of members here do with some slight creativity. If you are one to say no to chemical medias you can jam that thing tight with filter floss and other stuff like scotch bright pads and I don't see any reduced flow within media changes at all what so ever, so all that reduced flow is in one ear and out the other do to the fact that I have experienced lots and I now know that most of it is BS!

Now that is just one example but it is one that can not be beaten with a sledge hammer when it comes to filtration. I will admit, I dislike lots of cans over the Magnum but I would choose almost any over a HOB.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2008)

I thought parkayandbutter's comments were hilarious. I see exactly where he is coming from. But, I hate cleaning HOBs. You have to deal with taking the entire unit off the back of the tank which is not necessarily an easy task, especially large one like AC110. Also, the intake is pain and I always managed to get water all over the place. I have both and also had W/D set up. I like cans because they go under the tank and you CAN move the tank closer to the wall, which is huge for me. With the newer model, they are so much easier to detach them and clean in the sink. But as for the filteration capacity and capability, I don't think either one is so much superior to other. It's personal preference, really.


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## JWerner2 (Jul 7, 2008)

It is personal preference do to what routine you take and desire only and also capacity. You have to admit that you can fit far more media into a canister than a HOB bottom line 

I mean, think for a second and paint a image in your head of a HOB sitting next to a canister.

The canister naturally is bigger and you can in turn utilize most of that space one way or another. You can utilize lots of the space in a HOB but it is not as efficient cause you will get bypass in some areas.

The only time I would suggest a HOB is on smaller tanks which is only practical.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2008)

I completely agree that cans have more capacity to put more stuff in them. I have three large cans: FX5, 405, and XP4 running on my 265G. However, none of them are more than 50% full.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

prov356 said:


> > Most canisters are bypas free
> 
> 
> Not true, some have built in bypass. Ask Rena. There are others I hear, but that one I have first hand
> ...


I am going to agree with what prov said. But I am also going to disagree. I know exactly what he is talking about when he says that cannisters are low flow and that they do have bypass. I will address these two points in reverse order.

Originally I thought cannisters did not have bypass based on how they work. But recent experience has made me realize this is not true. I setup an FX5 about 6 months ago. Last week was the second time I cleaned it. The first time I waited three months to generate good bio capability. The second time I waited 3 three months, well, because I am lazy. When I cleaned it out last week the whole thing was extremely full of muck. But the water in my tank was also quite dirty, as well as the substrate even though I vacuum every week with my water changes. Originally I thought the substrate was always so dirty because my fish were too dirty for just one filter. The flow was a little less after three months, but not by much. After cleaning the filter last week, now my tank is spotless. I just vacuumed the substrate yesterday and hardly anything came up. After thinking about it I realized that the filter must have bypass. With the amount of waste in the cannister and the fact that there was still waste in the tank must mean that there was bypass going on. Especially since after cleaning the filter the tank is much cleaner compared to the cleaning I gave it the week before I cleaned the filter. If there was no bypass then the only other possibility is that the flow should have been almost nothing - which was not the case. There is another possibility but I really hope that it is not plausible, and that is that the media was so full that the waste was coming out the filter.

That might be a little confusing so where is the summary. Since the flow was not reduced to nothing, and the tank became exponentially cleaner after cleaning the filter I can only conclude that cannisters (specifically the FX5) must have bypass. However, I think my embarrassing example also says something else. The cannister should not have bypass when the media is clean - at least when you think about how it works. But if it has bypass when dirty, then it must be at least possible it can have bypass when clean?

Now, for my disagreement. Even with this understanding, I still don't think it can be considered a flaw, or a negative aspect of a cannister, since all filters will have bypass when the media is excessively dirty.

The second point was about low flow. I can't agree more about this aspect of cannisters and it is one thing I would say is a flaw of cannisters. I really wish the intake flow was a lot higher. As for why this is the case I am not sure. The only thing I can think of is that the volume to GPH ratio of a cannister is larger than the same ratio for an HOB. This means that the speed of the water flow would be less in a cannister, which will inhibit its ability to perform mechanical filtration. You could also add to this the point that cannisters use long tubes that further restrict flow, wheres as HOB's have a much better positioning in the tank (basically right in the tank) with less "length" of water flow which would cause the flow to not degrade as much.

Aside from an improper cleaning schedule I still think cannister are the best option out there in consideration of their cost/performance/noise factor. Have you heard how quiet they are? (If you haven't noticed thats my #1 priority)


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## JWerner2 (Jul 7, 2008)

I think people are attempting to try to hard to figure out the flaws rather than understand the cause of them do to the relatively cheap price of a HOB compared to a canister.

A even cooler aspect of how quiet they are is that they can be placed under the stand behind a door hindering noise even further.

Also, very few Canisters ( In which I am only now made aware of ) have this bypass. I know for a fact the Magnums dont which is visibly clear do to its design.

But again, I never experience low flow unless neglected. The flow rate is still high enough to compensate the_ recommend aquariums size_ even with the fact of the long tubes, placement of filter and others .

Like I said, if you are wise to pick up on things for media flow rate is not a problem. I can run my Magnum on my heavily stocked for its size 33L+heavily fed for weeks without reduced flow. I really dont see me doing anything special except for using filter floss and scotch bright pads as media, and those pads fill up quick!

Another is the fact that people automatically decide the rest of the maintenance routine should be dramatically reduced. It should but not by far. Do the same amount of vaccing and water changes!!!! That I cant emphasize as much as I feel I should!


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

parkayandbutter said:


> I typed what my experience has been as well as 2 other people. I am here to tell you that has been my experience with them.
> 
> Sure people like them, but my opinion I am entitled to. My above comment I would not change for one bit.


Hopefully this comes across as constructive...

Most people, hopefully, would not disagree that the value of forums is that people state their opinions. The problem is that there also needs to be some checks and balances used to evaluate those opinions. I speak from experience. I have come across posts before where people either communicated their opinion incorrectly, or just gave out misinformation that caused me to make bad decisions or buy the incorrect product because I assumed that person was correct in what they were stating. Now, while their opinion was justified, it didn't help me make the right choices. That is why if people see something that they disagree with, through their own opinion they express disagreement with it.

It is also useful to readers to understand the magnitude of disagreement. If someone makes a claim and people mildly disagree then I might ignore the disagreement if the claim seems reasonable to me. However, if there wild disagreement to the claim then I will consider the matter a lot more carefully.

So while it may seem hurtful, disagreement, no matter how strong, is more useful than not. At the least it raises a red flag to the reader who is trying to learn something from the discussion.

From all of the posts about cannisters that I have read your initial comments seemed very much out of line with the average experience. For this reason I think it is important that people voice their disagreement with your comments - but this does not invalidate or take away any value from what you stated. For all I know four months from now your experience will resonate with someone who is reading this thread and will be very useful to them. But I also think it is useful for them to see that there was strong disagreement with what you said.



parkayandbutter said:


> The fx5 how many people have them much less afford them? You can purchase a wet dry for 140 buck with a pump and have the same simplicity as I do. Simplicity! that's my case.


As for your comment about cost, I would argue that cannisters are very cost effective. When you compare apples to apples, a new FX5 can be had for under 200$ while a comparably sized wet/dry can easily cost a lot more.

And for the average person a cannister is as simple as it gets. If you do not have a RR tank then a wet/dry can be quite a task to setup whereas a cannister is pretty much plug-n-play.


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## JWerner2 (Jul 7, 2008)

People aren't looking for opinions. Ones personal opinions arise from personal routine in thses situations  .

People are looking for facts.

I made my comment on that post # because I honestly felt it was childish and hard to understand anything reasonable just by the way the post was phrased with such sarcasm.


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## AquaTester55 (Aug 16, 2006)

prov356 said:


> Not true, some have built in bypass. Ask Rena. There are others I hear, but that one I have first hand
> experience with, and also confirmed with Rena support. It's there so the flow doesn't come to a stop
> when users leave them so long they're gunked up beyond belief.


I never said ALL filters.. I said MOST.



> You're assuming poorly maintained or improperly installed media. Can't do that for a fair comparison.


What? This is wrong. Every HOB I have every used, Even the AC110s bypass or "overflow" even with clean media. Its very small but it does happen. Look closley.



> Canisters are also designed for very little flow.


BS! Canisters are not design for very little flow. Does 600 GPH seem little to you? Ehiem has a filter that pumps over 900 GPH. Does that seem very little flow to you?



> If it doesn't get to the intake, it doesn't do mechanical
> filtration.


Same goes for W/D filters or HOBs or ANY filtration for that matter.



> Canisters are designed for biofiltration that doesn't require a lot of flow.


More BS. Where are you coming up with this ****? You wan't a lot of flow, just a low velocity through the bio media. There is no type of biofiltration of the kind "low flow bacteria". haha. You get the same bacteria whether you have 1200 GPH or 300 gph.



> Yes, they'll also
> pull in some detritus, and yes, it looks like they're doing a bang up job when only opened every few
> months.


According to the everyones water conditions, they do a fine job mechanically and biologically. You know how to test this? make your water VERY dirty, watch it clean very quickly. Another test, dirty your water, then have the output of the filter go into a glass cup, I did this many times, guess what, the water coming out, is CLEAR! Instantaneous!



> Also means flow slows even more, so even less gets pulled in. Again, if it doesn't get pulled in, it
> doesn't do mechanical.


Umm, this is the same for ALL filters. Once again. Flow will slow down no matter how dirty filter media gets. Filters that bypass could just put dirty water back in the tank. A Bypass free filter will clear water longer and better than a filter that has bypass, such as, HOBs.

BTW, a canister filter will have more volume of flow through a 5"x5" 200 ppi pad at 500 gph that is 60% dirty, than a wet dry with the same flow rate and pad dimentions while being 60% dirty. W/D rely on gravity to force the water through the pads when canisters will pull or push the water through. A HOB would just start to overflow quickly due to the amount of water trying to be forced through the pad, unfortunatly, water takes the path of the least resistance, guess where that is? Around the media.



> Unlike the accurate flow ratings given for canisters? :roll:


Eheim and Fluval (minus the 03,04,05 series) both do a good job at giving actual flow rates. The Fx5 is documented to have 604 GPH. Its been tested with media at 600-650 GPH! Where is your argument coming from again?



> My statement that HOB's are better at mechanical is based on the higher flow (whether it's up to
> ratings or not).


Horrible Argument. Flow rate doesn't mean **** without the proper media. You have a better argument below...



> The more current, the longer particles stay suspended, and the stronger the intake,
> the better chance they get pulled into the intake. *Of course there also needs to be proper media *
> that's maintained properly.


In bold I would almost agree. HOBs have a TINY surface area so their filtration capacity is very small compaired to some canisters. BTW, 100 GPH will keep particals in the filter media. So that argument about the "more current the longer particles stay suspended..." is a joke. 
And of course, that's a generality. There are strong flow canisters that can beat smaller HOB's.



> Good discussion though.


It is? looks like a load of bs to me.


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## AquaTester55 (Aug 16, 2006)

parkayandbutter said:


> I typed what my experience has been as well as 2 other people. I am here to tell you that has been my experience with them. Here is my wet dry experience. I can tell when the filter needs to be changed out. The water overfills the media tray. In my experience convenience of grabbing and tossing a filter media sheet and replacement in under 10 seconds is way worth my time then tearing apart something and running it over the faucet squeezing it clean packing it in place and all the following of the above I listed.
> 
> Sure people like them, but my opinion I am entitled to. My above comment I would not change for one bit.


Thats fine. Some don't like them, a lot do. Doesn't mean they are junk.



> The fx5 how many people have them much less afford them? You can purchase a wet dry for 140 buck with a pump and have the same simplicity as I do. Simplicity! that's my case.


Fx5, $180 shipped from ebay. you will need to buy media but my arguments about bypassing stand true from what you said about your filter overflowing the media tray and well.....bypassing :lol:


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## AquaTester55 (Aug 16, 2006)

JWerner2 said:


> It is personal preference do to what routine you take and desire only and also capacity. You have to admit that you can fit far more media into a canister than a HOB bottom line


The biggest HOB filter, The AC110, has less than .5 Liters of bio media... hahahaha. What does that say for HOBs kicking Canisters butt that can have anywhere from 3-14L. lol. The more bio media you have, the more flow you can run through it. The less bio media you have, the less flow you can run through it. At 500 GPH, with less than .5 L of media, you have less than 1 second of contact time. In some canisters, you have over 7-10 seconds of contact time.



boredatwork said:


> know exactly what he is talking about when he says that cannisters are low flow and that they do have bypass.


Why do you agree with him saying they are design for low flow? Fx5 has over 600 GPH. Is that low flow to you?



> When I cleaned it out last week the whole thing was extremely full of muck. But the water in my tank was also quite dirty,


The more waste that is left in the filter, the more the waste will break down into smaller particals and go right through the large 40 PPI sponges. You can get small partical filter pads that will help with this.

Personally, the Fx5 "can" have bypass if the sponges are not maintained correctly. They don't seal to the bottom of the top baskets very well.



> If there was no bypass then the only other possibility is that the flow should have been almost nothing - which was not the case.


Your under estimating the flow rate capability through a dirty sponge and the negitive pressures created within the filter. This is the great thing about canisters. HOBs and W/D would just overflow.



> But if it has bypass when dirty, then it must be at least possible it can have bypass when clean?


*Not really. I do agree that the Fx5 is may not be 100% bypass free at all times as it is stated but its VERY close. When the sponges are clean, there is less negitive pressures behind them. When the become dirty, there is more negitive pressure which will make the sponge start to deform and could pull away from an area that was untill now, sealed.*



> From all of the posts about cannisters that I have read your initial comments seemed very much out of line with the average experience


Which comments?



> The second point was about low flow. I can't agree more about this aspect of cannisters and it is one thing I would say is a flaw of cannisters. I really wish the intake flow was a lot higher. *As for why this is the case I am not sure. The only thing I can think of is that the volume to GPH ratio of a cannister is larger than the same ratio for an HOB. *This means that the speed of the water flow would be less in a cannister, which will inhibit its ability to perform mechanical filtration. You could also add to this the point that cannisters use long tubes that further restrict flow, wheres as HOB's have a much better positioning in the tank (basically right in the tank) with less "length" of water flow which would cause the flow to not degrade as much.


One major reason why most canister filter flow (not pump flow) rates are low, usually in the 400s, is the amount of media available in the canister. You NEED a high flow rate with very little media to do the same job as a low flow with LOTS of media if you want to keep circulation up. In reality, the less media, the lesser the flow to increase contact time.

Canisters do have long tubes but thats not the restriction that should be looked it as the length has very little to do with the overall restriction (not saying it doesn't have anything to do with it). Its the head pressure and the ID of the tubing used. Also of its ribbed, like fluval tubing, the excess turbulance can cause frictional pressure gains in the output and pressure loses in the intake causing a reduced flow.

I would say almost 90% of consumers that have aquariums, have one that is under 180 gallons and don't over stoke. Most canisters can handle a 180 gallon just fine. Thats when canisters are geared for. If most consumers had 200 Gallon + tanks, then manufactures would build more powerful canisters with much highflow rates. Since this is not the reason, they see it as a major profit thinking people may need to buy another filter to keep up with fish load. Like I said though, examples of the Fx5 and 2080 would be able to handle a 180 gallon just fine all by its self due to the fact that the contact time with the media is increased drastically compaired to a HOB which has.....well... nothing for contact time.

So, with that said, canisters can be built to handle much higher flow rates. I myself am building a sealed canister which will purge its self and will handle 1200 GPH + flow using 1" ID tubing, about a 3-4' head.



JWerner2 said:


> I think people are attempting to try to hard to figure out the flaws rather than understand the cause of them do to the relatively cheap price of a HOB compared to a canister.


Agree 100%. Look at my comment in bold above. Bolded for you.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Wow, lots of angry people in the world.  You folks take this stuff way too seriously. Calm down and discuss and learn together. :thumb: Or get angry, aggressive and curse a lot. :lol:

This isn't about winning arguments. Why do so many take that approach here. I wonder if the poor OP ever got an answer. :lol:


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## AquaTester55 (Aug 16, 2006)

> Wow, lots of angry people in the world. You folks take this stuff way too seriously. Calm down and discuss and learn together. Or get angry, aggressive and curse a lot.
> 
> This isn't about winning arguments. Why do so many take that approach here. I wonder if the poor OP ever got an answer.


He did from JWerner2 and I. You and others just say that canister don't work any better than HOBs which is complete BS.

All aggravating commenting aside, I did look at the rena close but never saw a built in bypass... Can you comment on this a little more?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Can you comment on this a little more?


Normally, I'd be happy to, but this thread has too combative of a tone. I'm going to go talk to my 
wife now. She likes me.


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## AquaTester55 (Aug 16, 2006)

Who the **** edited my post?



From Some Mod Editing my Post said:


> And of course, that's a generality. There are strong flow canisters that can beat smaller HOB's.


I did not put that in my post!!!!! But I found it in MY post. WTF? This statement is wrong. 
Strong Flow Canisters? You can't even define the flow correctly. There are many canisters that can beat LARGE HOBs. You don't need a "strong flow" canister to do it either. AC110 has a high flow to make up for the little filtration volume it has.

I do not appriciate this at all. I am simply trying to correct someones opinion with fact and I get this thrown into my post? That is low.


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## nick a (Apr 9, 2004)

> I have a 55 gallon all male hap and peacock tank. currently i have a hob double biowheel because i never had the tank crowded enough to worry about insufficient filtration. now with these new fish (i like to think of them as my children ) i have to have the aquarium overstocked and im starting to worry about sufficient filtration. *is there a justifiable advantage to a cannister? or will a hob be okay?*


Jeez-lou-eeze! All this heat over the OP's questions! Thankfully, the OP didn't even ask about *brands* of filters. :roll: :lol:

To stranded-on-the-side-line-in-Kansas-while-trolls-do-their-thing, (assuming you're even watching this thread any more :roll: ) The FACTS are that each type of filtration has it's pro's & con's.

Since you are already running an EMP400 (I think) there is a pro to adding another similar model for additional filtration capacity: common meda & spare parts. You wiould be rolling roughly 800gph (as rated--even 25% less still means 600gph!) in a 55 which is plenty and have a wealth of media capacity/options. So the short answer is YES, a hob be okay.

is there a justifiable advantage to a cannister? _Justifiable_ by dollar value or by function? In your case, a $40-50 HOB would suit functionally. However, depending on variables such as your thoughts on larger future tanks etc....could mean that an investment of $100+ in a can might be worthwhile.


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## JWerner2 (Jul 7, 2008)

As long as one differs from another and this goes for anything in life period it will have its pros and cons.

However, pros and cons alone in some certain circumstances are not enough to justify what is actually better than the other! If you are looking into something as a upgrade sometimes you need to work around the cons to be successful. Some cons therefore may only consist of a change in routine!

In fact, why add a SECOND HOB when one can just add ONE Canister?

Now to the OP I will be a bit more realistic. Your single HOB alone _may_ work out _may_ not but if you do see some changes in water quality keep the thought of purchasing a canister for back up in mind. Preferably a Magnum 350. I recommend that canister cause I do see faults in this thread for certain other brands but I can not find any of those faults present with a Magnum 350 Canister nor are they justifiable enough to consider a HOB over most of them if any regardless.


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## nick a (Apr 9, 2004)

> In fact, why add a SECOND HOB when one can just add ONE Canister?


If you really stop & think about what you are saying, whether it is a can or a HOB he is going to be ADDING to what already exists.


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## JWerner2 (Jul 7, 2008)

It really takes little thought.

You will be adding then subtracting what was there! That leaves you with 1.

1+1=2-1=1!

I don't understand what could have caused any confusion with that at all.

Now since it has cause some obvious confusion one way or another I will simplify.

Why add two HOB's when you can get rid of the existing one and run a single canister!!!


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## nick a (Apr 9, 2004)

Does what the OP was asking have any relevance to your stream of conciousness?

Why would you suggest that the OP throw away their seemingly well-functioning original HOB?


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## JWerner2 (Jul 7, 2008)

Wow. I dont understand the density of some peoples brains. When are proven wrong they stray off topic!

It has everything to do with it.

Read it over and over again and if it just don't make any sense let it be. It obviously never will make any to you at all.

You speak of the OP's topic how many times and you don't get it yet?

He has lots of options for that HOB if he decides to go with a canister. Besides tossing it out one option is to *store it for the future if needed.* Or even if he really feels like it since this is all his decision-use it along with a canister. Another two is to sell it or give it to a friend and possibly use it to set up a different smaller tank.


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## nick a (Apr 9, 2004)

=me smiling & walking away.


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