# Unknown Issue Killing My Fish (50+ so far)



## Lankan (10 mo ago)

I will try to summarize all the info, as a lot has happened in the last six weeks. If you see a strikethrough, it indicates those fish have died (the first starting on 3/18/22), and next to it will be how many remain as of this morning (3/30/22). Here goes:

1) I had a healthy 110-gal tank with a FX6 filter. The following fish were in it without any major issues for over 1.5 years. They included:

6 Clown Loaches (4-5” in size) – 1 left
2 Yoyo Loaches (6” in size) – both alive
2 Pleckos (4” & 8”) – both alive
4 Asst Peacocks (3-6” in size) – Two 6" ones alive
5 Bleekeri (2-3” in size) – all alive
3 Blue/black striped fish (4” & two 1” babies) – all dead
2) In mid February, I upgrade to a 180-gallon tank, with a 10-gallon sump & a 15-gallon refugum. Soon after setting it up, I bought the following new fish:

4 Brichardi Albino (3-4” in size) – all dead
8 Yellow Murago (3-4” in size) – All dead
6 Duboisi Maswa (3-4” in size) – All dead
23 Yellow Labs (1-2” in size) – 3 alive
3) 2/17/22: I first added all these fish into the new 180-gallon tank

4) 2/21/22: As everything seemed to be going well, I added all the fish from my 110-gallon tank into the 180-gallon.

5) For the last year and a half I had been feeding dry food the whole time, with @3-4 cubes of frozen brine shrimp (thawed in fish tank water) once a week. I feed once/day in the evening, what they can eat in under 5 minutes.

6) In early March, I thought I would give them something “better” or different to eat, so the local aquarium (an associate) suggested two additional frozen treats… Ocean Plankton & Emerald Entrée, and when I asked if it was okay to give them these twice/week (Sunday/Wednesday), they said it will be fine. I honestly thought it would be better, and the fish would be happier, as they seemed to like it when I did feed it.

7) The first fish died on 3/18/22, and I have continued to lose fish every day since then.

Since I got the 180-gallon tank, I have checked the Ammonia and Nitrite levels every few days, and it never spiked to dangerous levels. Nitrates were a little high whenever I had the aquarium check the water, however I have done water changes religiously (25-40%) to ensure the water stays healthy. I use API aquarium salt (15ml for every 5 gallons) and an API water conditioner when adding new water.

During one of my visits last week, the owner of the local aquarium was there, and he said I should not have given them the two new foods I bought (what his associate had recommended; Ocean Plankton & Emerald Entrée), as it was too much protein, and that it’s hard for the fish (specially for certain cichlids) to digest it.

The signs I saw of something different happening included long thread-like feces that was clear/whitish in color, some fish scraping their gills against the sandy bottom, my clown loaches breathing very heavily (the ones that died), fish that die losing their sense of balance, and lastly their stomachs looked bloated as well (the ones that have died so far).

This past Saturday I took a couple of the dying fish to the same local aquarium, and they thought it could be some sort of a parasite and suggested I add a product called “Coppersafe”. It has been in there for more than three days, but fish continue to die.

Sorry for the long first post on here. I know I rushed into my bigger tank too fast, and didn’t do my homework on what to feed/not tot feed, and am paying for it dearly.
I read yesterday that a medicine called Metronidazole may help, but worried about mixing medicines. Please help, as it’s depressing to see all my fish die like this… I feel helpless.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Welcome to C-F and I am so sorry you have lost so many fish.

What exactly are you test results for ammonia and nitrite (both should be zero), nitrate and pH? What brand test kit are you using and is it test strips or the liquid test tube type?

I don't think either of those frozen food have enough protein to cause problems with your fish since water is the highest percentage. It is possible that some fish ate too much especially if it wasn't thoroughly thawed out.

What is your normal pellet/flake food that you feed and the fish have been doing well eating?

Long whitish thread-like feces is caused by Spironucleus which can sometimes be found in the fishes intestinal tract but can multiply due to either stress, other infected fish or improper diet. If your remaining fish are still eating, try using plain unscented Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) as directed in the following link in post #1 Treating hexamita aka spironucleus . If your fish are not eating, consider trying the Metronidazole as soon as possible.

Keep us posted on how your treat your fish and how they are doing. Ask any more questions you need to ask.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would not feed the extra foods, but I doubt that killed your fish. Extra protein might be suspect for the labs and tropheus perhaps...but this seems like something else.

I would choose between the Lake Malawi fish and Lake Tanganyika fish and fish from other continents when you restock. 

Were the brichardi aggressive? Maybe they wanted to spawn and started killing the others...then the stress in the tank killed them as well.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

"2) In mid February, I upgrade to a 180-gallon tank, with a 3-gallon sump & a 15-gallon refugum. Soon after setting it up, I bought the following new fish:

4 Brichardi Albino (3-4” in size) – all dead
8 Yellow Murago (3-4” in size) – All dead
6 Duboisi Maswa (3-4” in size) – All dead
23 Yellow Labs (1-2” in size) – 11 alive"
Sounds like you did not quarantine the new additions which may have brought some disease along. My other questions is the 3 gallon sump; is this a typo?


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)

Deeda said:


> Welcome to C-F and I am so sorry you have lost so many fish.
> 
> What exactly are you test results for ammonia and nitrite (both should be zero), nitrate and pH? What brand test kit are you using and is it test strips or the liquid test tube type?
> 
> ...


Yeah, it really is gut-wrenching to watch them suffer and die, and have to remove dead fish and bury them almost twice/day since 3/18. I will post pictures shortly of the ammonia and nitrate readings since I set-up the tank.and added all the fish. I am using the liquid test tube type. There was an initial nitrite spike on 2/26, however I did a water change on 2/27 along with adding my FX6 (from my de-commissioned 110-gallon tank), externally for extra filtration.

It is possible that some of the fish ate too much, however I always make sure the frozen food is completely thawed before feeding them.

I forget the brand, but will post-up pictures of the pellet food I am using this evening.

The "healthy" fish are eating, however the sick ones do not eat and are typically hiding at the bottom/behind rocks, and soon die. Based on this, I will try the epsom salt.


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)

DJRansome said:


> I would not feed the extra foods, but I doubt that killed your fish. Extra protein might be suspect for the labs and tropheus perhaps...but this seems like something else.
> 
> I would choose between the Lake Malawi fish and Lake Tanganyika fish and fish from other continents when you restock.
> 
> Were the brichardi aggressive? Maybe they wanted to spawn and started killing the others...then the stress in the tank killed them as well.


Yeah, I met someone who breeds and sells fish (that sold me the Tropheus colony), who assured me that the new fish would have no problem "getting along" with my existing fish. In the back of my mind though, I was worried about the nightmare that's currently taking place. I should have definitely done my research instead of trusting someone who sells fish for a living.

The brichardi and even the duboisi were a little aggressive, and would chase each other around. I have seen multiple species (yellow murago, yellow labs, and duboisi) doing their mating rituals. About a week ago, I saw tiny baby fish that were either from the yellow labs or the brichardi.


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)

Aussieman57 said:


> "2) In mid February, I upgrade to a 180-gallon tank, with a 3-gallon sump & a 15-gallon refugum. Soon after setting it up, I bought the following new fish:
> 
> 4 Brichardi Albino (3-4” in size) – all dead
> 8 Yellow Murago (3-4” in size) – All dead
> ...


You are correct. I quarantined... the new colony in the new 180-gallon for 4 days, and then added my existing fish from the 110-gallon. The person I bought the new colony from, said it was perfectly safe to add my existing fish into the new bigger tank at that time, as my water quality in the 180-gallon checked out fine. I now know that I did not wait long enough... I should have kept them separate for at least one month or more before combining them.

And yes, it was a typo... it's a 10-gallon sump... thanks!


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)

Pictures of water tests...


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)




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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Thanks for the pics of your test results!

The nitrite results on 2/27 looked the highest and just a slight color on 3/5 and the ammonia results didn't look horrible on any of your tests. Are you testing for nitrate at all?


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)

Deeda said:


> Thanks for the pics of your test results!
> 
> The nitrite results on 2/27 looked the highest and just a slight color on 3/5 and the ammonia results didn't look horrible on any of your tests. Are you testing for nitrate at all?


I am not testing for nitrate at home, however my local aquarium does test it every week, and they did tell me on the 20th (after my first fish died) that it was a little elevated, and to do a 25% water change, which I did the same day. They also said nitrates won't specifically kill fish... specially how fast mine are dying.


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)

Deeda said:


> What is your normal pellet/flake food that you feed and the fish have been doing well eating?


Up until about the first week of March I was giving them a mix of these two sinking pellets once/day, along with frozen brine shrimp once/week.


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## Colzilla090 (Nov 15, 2021)

Hmm...sorry about your fish.
First thing I'm thinking is oxygen levels an *SALT!*
_
I use API aquarium salt (15ml for every 5 gallons) and an API water conditioner when adding new water._

Salt remains even when you do water changes. So adding salt on every change is going to accumulate, better doing salt every other W/change..
Is it possible its a salt shock thing causing this?
I also say oxygen because ur tanks bigger and perhaps not enough current and gas exchange going on for o2 saturation for that salty Bb colony..
Personally would not trust the lfs and stop feeding junk there recommending. 
Do a big Big big water change, regardless of tank temp go for 76°f don't add salt, make sure the fx6 outlet is breaking the waters surface slamming the water adding air. 
Its not new tank syndrome cos to many fish have died
Your water parameters aren't deadly...
Why did you feed them marine foods?? 
Also I feel your pain dude, don't give up!


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## Colzilla090 (Nov 15, 2021)

The more im thinking the more im thinking salt levels..As a rule of thumb, adding salt to a freshwater is generally not recommended. However, its medicinal purposes work wonders on sick fish, provided the species is salt-tolerant, contains both sodium chloride and chloride (NaCl) ions which are known to balance nitrite levels. 
It also provides electrolytes..
It’s proper important not to overdo it with salts in a freshwater tank. Live plants can die and spawning habits can be negatively affected by dehydrating eggs and killing milt. 
Bottom-feeders are more susceptible to salt and need time to adjust to its presence. too much salt, you’ll inevitably kill both the fish and the plants. 
Even though salt helps reduce nitrite toxicity, it also increases the alkalinity of the water look up how gh and kh stabilise ph..if it isn't stable, can result in death/fish will often demonstrate behaviours associated with stress. 
Signs of too much salt in an aquarium include
hiding for extended periods; frequently darting; franticly swimming; gasping near the surface; rubbing against rocks; and loss of appetite; sick and/or dying plants and fish. It can lead to dehydration and an overactive slime coat. A freshwater fish will lose water through osmosis when placed in a tank with too much salt.
Try a 90% water change but don't clean the filters. keep the light on..yes on..no spookig them, stressed fish die easy..
NO SALT! 
Hope you get on top of this, good luck.


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## Kwik-3-Mart (Oct 5, 2021)

Have you tested chlorine? I know you are using water conditioner, but the symptoms you are describing all can be explained by low levels of chlorine if the water conditioner wasn’t enough.

chlorine burns the gills and the fish slowly suffocate. Sometimes they gasp for air at the top, but I haven’t seen cichlids do that much. The crazy behavior, swimming erratically and rubbing their sides on the substrate and decorations all seems to match.

the problem with chlorine is that municipal water suppliers will do super chlorine/chloramine events a few times a year. Harmless to humans, but your water conditioner suddenly can’t cut it.

so… solutions: Double dose (or more) the water conditioner based on the full volume of the tank. Like dump it in you can’t O.D.

Second, get wavemakers, airstones and whatever else you can to boost oxygen. It can take months to heal the already damaged gills.

I’m so sorry for your loss. It’s so hard. Let me know if you see results from this recommendation. Be patient. Hill damage takes time.


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## SenorStrum (Aug 14, 2020)

I'm also sorry you're going through this. Many of the folks here have touched on the usual suspects. Unexpected fish deaths lead me to 3 standard vectors of investigation, typically. 
1. Chlorine. Hands down the biggest fish killer
2. Chemistry
3. Infection

Follow @Kwik-3-Mart on this one. It's all good advice. I don't think this is it, personally. It would have to be persistent chloramines, and I think that this doesn't fit the bill, but the advice is solid and we should eliminate it as a possibility. 

If it were Chemistry, similarly, I would expect more of the fish to be involved. @Colzilla090 already pointed out that the parameters in the tank are just not that (this) deadly. I didn't see pH measurement (might have missed it, but it's important). At a 7 or any lower, that nitrite reading is potentially deadly. However, you would have seen other signs in your fish in the case of nitrite poisoning. This leads to "Brown Blood" syndrome where the blood under the surface of the skin turns brown. You can see "Brown streaks" in fins and up under the gills when this happens. Was this observed? The lower the pH, for Nitrite, the more likely this is to happen. Salt prevents it almost entirely. Nitrite poisoning is not a thing to even think about in a saltwater tank. If it were some other kind of chemistry issue, again, I would expect this to affect all the fish. Probably...

Which leaves disease. This is acting like a Columnaris (bacterial) infection to me. Supporting evidence for discussion (please do not take any of these as accusatory - this happens).

Lack of full quarantine; I feel like we've all broken this rule and paid the price.
The food displayed is garbage. It's almost all carbohydrates. Carbohydrates in a fish tank just don't really work, and the main ingredients listed in those foods all contain a huge amount of carbohydrates. Why is this a problem? Well, lots of types of bacteria eat carbohydrates, so those bacteria area all floating around in the tank eating the left-over carbohydrates right out of the water column. I personally believe that carbohydrates are one of the main things responsible for "Malawi Bloat" as excessive carbohydrates lead a chain reaction that basically goes - fermentation in the gut, reduction of the ambient oxygen level in the gut, growth of the pathogens which cause bloat, bloat, intestinal blockage, stop eating....die. Depending on the magnitude of the issue, this can be fast. Maybe this is it?
Because of this, I'm going to guess that the water in the aquarium is pretty "murky" or "Cloudy". If I'm right, this cloudiness is bacteria in the water column - your fish have to fight these bacteria off constantly at the gills and skin and eyes... This takes resources from the immune system.
Add a bunch of stress in moves and a tank that's not totally cycled (Guilty. I've done it...), and you get a recipe for a weak fish getting sick. Columnaris or some other bacterial infection moves just like this when it gets in a tank. A fish will get infected, have almost no signs of anything going on externally, sometimes develop fungus-like lesions, hide, stop eating, and die in a few days.

Which leads me to advice and prognosis- Rough. This seems to have gone far. You've lost a lot of fish, and I'm SO sorry. I sincerely know how you feel. 

1. Mentioned by many, but aeration is key. Good surface movement, extra bubblers, all that kind of thing are worth it right now. 
2. I would feed the fish a mix of gram negative antibiotics like Maracyn two if you can get hold of it. I keep a stock on hand because when you need it, it's hard to get. You may be able to get erythromycin easier. This is gram positive antibiotic but it will help. I would also mix in some API general cure if you can find it. This contains a medicine used to treat bloat called Metronidazole. This is what you need to kill the critters in the low oxygen environment of a bloated fish's gut. The key is, they have to ingest both medicines. They won't absorb into the fish through the water and fish don't drink. Mix up some medicated food ASAP and this will help to keep the other fish healthy. (Do not follow the instructions on these medications to dump them in the water. This cannot possibly help with anything but selling more medications. 
3. UV sterilizer - Many folks don't think they do much, but I decided that I think they do a lot after I researched them. I run sterilizers on all my tanks. When the bacteria and baddies are passed in front of a UV-C bulb, they are damaged and the goal is to render them infertile. So that they cannot infect a fish or breed in the water column. Contrary to popular belief the effect from passing in front of the bulb is additive, so you don't need to kill or even sterilize the baddie in one pass. You can get a cheap one off Amazon for under $50 and throw it in the tank and run it all the time while you're dealing with this issue. 

I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot, but here is some more reading on bacterial infections. Not sure if this is it or not, but it can't hurt. Good luck!


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)

Thank you for all the detailed feedback everyone! As you can imagine, it's a bit of information overload, however here's a bit more information on my set-up that I hadn't provided before (in case it helps shed more light on what the culprit could be):

1) API aquarium salt: I only add salt based on how much water I am changing each time. For example, if I replace 50 gallons, I will mix-in 150 grams of salt (as the instructions say to use 15g/5-gallons of water). As to why I use salt, again, I was told by the person I acquired my 110-gallon set-up over a year and a half ago, that they used it, and it was good for the fish. I was also told that aquarium salt is good for the health of cichlids in general. As this seems to be a concern, I was thinking I should purchase a salinity refractometer to see what my salt concentration is?

2) Chlorine: I am not checking for chlorine levels.

3) Oxygen: My filtration/sump system pumps water back into the tank from nozzles on either side of the overflow. They are positioned to break the water surface and introduce a LOT of oxygen into the tank. I will post a few pictures of the tank/setup shortly so everyone gets an idea of my set-up.

4) Plants: I was slowly introducing plats (types of Java fern) into my refugium and tank over the last month or so, and testing plants in the tank that the fish would not eat. I removed all the plants this past Sunday (3/27), as I was told that the "Coppersafe" would kill them. I am not using any carbon in the filtration system.

5) Extra filtration: I added my spare Fluval FX6 as of 3/29 evening, as I was told I cannot "over filter". 

6) I have a UV light in the refugium loop. It is turned-on for @6 hours/day.

7) Water temperature: kept between 81-82* F. My previous 110-gallon tank was at this temperature for over a year, and I was told that cichlids also like the warmer temperatures, and that is also helps keep any bacteria/infections at bay.

8) PH: on 3/8 was @7 (the last time I checked). I am using a digital meter to take this reading. When I took my water sample to the local aquarium on 3/27, they said it was @ 7.5

9) Hardness: on 3/8 was @1633. I am using a digital meter to take this reading.

10) Extra algae growth on plants in refugium (I will include a picture, however I washed/removed most of it on 3/13): There was too much algae as I was initially using LED's that were too bright.


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)




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## Colzilla090 (Nov 15, 2021)

Some awesome advice from everyone here, got the best brains thinking on this..
I agree some degree of salt is a must, only way to remove it is water change no salt, I dose mine monthly with Epsom salt and bicarbonate of soda, also add 10ml of fluvals shrimp mineral supplement. 
I'll be shouted at but I don't use tap safe in any of my tanks.. my welshwater only has chlorine not fluoride or chloramine its good water where I am.
So looking at your photos what are those brown round rocks? Are they new? Is it possible there leaching?
Get some plastic plants or stack the rock to the surface somewhere to make shade/fish will feel safer, so they don't feel like there in open water sort of thing.
You got good gear and clearly care about your fish. 
Start over, It sound silly but u need more dirt in your setup..mine for example right now








Its dirty! But the fish are thriving..
I'm feeling the waters to clean and sterile in yours... 
Swap out 20% add no salt, lots of tap safe, drop the current but agitate the surface, if possible dim the lighting and drop temp to 78 from 82.
I really want to try help you because losing fish is s#@t....


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## Colzilla090 (Nov 15, 2021)

Know anyone with a tank who will let you squeeze the filter floss browness into your setup?


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## SenorStrum (Aug 14, 2020)

I would like to know more about the hardness reading. What is that measured in? Parts Per Million? That would read about 4x the preferred high end for African Cichlids, and very well may be your culprit. It is definitely outside of normal ranges. This certainly would have kept you safe from the nitrite spike, but is not a good sustained way to keep these guys, I don't think. Will also be super hard on your plants. 

Can you please measure your tap water for us? PH, GH, and whatever else you can test? I'm guessing you don't need the salt.


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## Colzilla090 (Nov 15, 2021)

I was looking at the subtle water marks from drips/splashes on last photo op posted.
You maybe nailed it!


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## Colzilla090 (Nov 15, 2021)

Info overload! 
Can you also list everything your putting into the water column every WC please.


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)

Colzilla090 said:


> Some awesome advice from everyone here, got the best brains thinking on this..
> 
> Its dirty! But the fish are thriving..
> I'm feeling the waters to clean and sterile in yours...
> ...


Wow, you have an amazing tank! Again, thank you for everyone's detailed input. Here's the answers to some of the latest unanswered questions:

1) Brown rocks: These have been in my 110G tank for over a year, so nothing to worry about. What's new in the 180G is the two large pieces of wood you see on either side, and the stack of white rocks (I think its Texas holey rock). Anything new was soaked in 5-gallon buckets with very hot water (I filled buckets @ 3/4 way up with the hottest water from the water heater, and then topped-off with boiling water from a kettle, and left it overnight prior to placing them in the tank). For the two large pieces of wood, I believe I did this twice.

2) Bacteria: I had forgotten to mention this, but I have been using the recommended dosage of a bacteria called "Pond Microbe-Lift) when I started-up the tank, and have been adding some weekly as well. The recommended repeat dosage was @40ml for my 185-G set-up. I will include a picture shortly.

3) Per recommendation, I reduced my temperature last night by 3 degrees (it was down almost 2* as of this morning). You will see a difference in temperature readings in the pictures I am posting (from last night), as the Johnson Control and the hardness tester are reading @ 3-4* higher temperature vs. the external digital & mercury magnet thermometer (which are the two I use to red "actual" temperature). I also added about 50ml of my water conditioner last night, as some of you said it can do no harm. Another piece of information I had forgotten to mention, when PETCO tested my water on 3/2 (using a strip that also measures chlorine), the levels were not elevated at all.

4) Water change & other info: I add a water conditioner called "Stress Coat+", and have been using the recommended dosage (5ml per 10 gallons) on ALL water chages. My water changes since setting-up the tank are as follows:
4a) 2/13: Tank filled for first time with 100% tap water. Added Stress Coat+ and Microbe-Lift bacteria. The new colony of cichlids went in on 2/17.
4b) 2/21: Added the fish from my 110G into the 180G - No water change. Left my 110G filter and heater running in case I needed it as a back-up.
4c) 2/26: Nitrites were a little high in the 180G, so drained *@80G* and transferred all the water from the 110G (@75G as it was low on water + 5 gallons of fresh water) into the 180G. Added @30ml of bacteria.
4d) 2/28: Nitrites had not reduced (still reading a little high like two days prior), so did a water change of *80G*. Also added my Fluval FX6 externally for additional filtration and left it on until 3/5.
4e) 3/8: Added 40ml of bacteria . PH was 7 and hardness was 1450ppm.
4f) 3/13: Removed excess algae from refugium plants as I had been using a shop LED light that was too bright for a few weeks.
4g) 3/14: Ammonia and nitrites checked, and were stable/low.
4h) 3/18 eve: First fish (yellow murago) died. Added 40ml of bacteria that night.
4i) 3/20 morn: Two yellow murago's died. Local aquarium shop said nitrates were a little high and do @40% WC. Did *@70G* WC.
4j) 3/27: Water test at Petco as well as aquarium shop, said nitrates a little high and to do @25% WC. Did *@50G* WC.

Again, thank you for everyone's feedback! I have been soaking the small pellets in the epsom salt and feeding them 2x/day as suggested since 3/30 evening. One yellow lab was dead that evening. No fish died yesterday (3/31), however I could see that one yellow lab and one of my clown loaches seem very stressed (breathing heavily). The symptoms were the same this morning, and I'm thinking the will probably be gone by the evening 

Sad thing is, I have been trying my best and this process has been taking-up so much of my time lately, and for so many fish to die like this has been devastating! I hope with everyone's help we can figure out what I did wrong, so that someone else won't make the same mistake. Will post pictures shortly.


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)




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## Lankan (10 mo ago)




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## Lankan (10 mo ago)

My fins on my clown loaches have always shown signs when there is something wrong with the water, or if it's time for a water change (if I was a little late doing one when they used to be in the 110G tank). @2 weeks ago I noticed the outer edge of their fins turning whitish along with being much redder than they are supposed to be. They white has since gone away, however the fins are still very red.

Thought I would include this info and a picture of one of the clown loaches and some other fish in case it helps.


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)

I did not have time to do a 20% WC (@ 40G) last evening, so will be doing that this evening, and as recommended by a few, will NOT be adding API salt.


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## Colzilla090 (Nov 15, 2021)

Only thing got my eye was that pond Bb stuff and the high Gh/Kh? Hardness so high.. 

Not in the frame of mind for science, so ill use my powers of waffle...

That tanks been running since October, I think? I've kept fish a fair few years. I like my tanks to mature without me messing with them constantly, playing with the water column or rearranging things, etc.. Anyway..
"somewhere in between my discretionaryas waffle, one can gleam some wisdom".
So, I'll digress..

I think your water "isn't" the main issue here. 
Yes, its very possible it can still be the underlying issue! but I've seen fish do fine in far worse..colzilla090????
In my opinion this is a stress/fish psychology thing going on...
possibly the clown loach sucking slimecoats at night for proteins its missing..but unlikely. Run with it...imagine your one of the fish! At the fishes eye level, it looks like;
"i have to stay by this rock/in this cave, I don't like the look of that open water going into the horizon! Plus I can't go over there..."
Make sense? Get some front to back caves going on blocking line of sight between fish, don't over think it tho they'll work out boundaries. 
The peacock/haps, dunno what they are! There bigger then the rest so more then likely own most of the open water, they look ok/good shape in the photo, possibly eating more at feeds so are stronger against all these stress hormones..them labs are still quiet small and will scrap a lot over the best caves, so will spread out to most other nooks and crannies or be moved off by the peacock/haps who likely own the open water, which has its own dynamic. 
These nooks i mention will probably be occupied by that dark speckle guy, (rubbish with species names) who will choose at will which cave it wants/allowed and again move on the labs, back into a fight/attack or a enemy's space.
Im assuming the speckle guy hangs with the loach a lot? Probably learnt there's no yellow guys if It hang with him!
So them labs the stress hormones I mentioned the "go away yo, my rock!" tick tick boom. On top of this mind battle is the need to feel safe, have a grazing zone, them females need a "safe place" males want to own substrate. Lack of these instinctive requirements, its accumulating..
Now add excess salt, and the rightly concerned owner trying to help the fish, inadvertently adding stress by trying to fix the water. Correct approach. But tick tick boom..

In my tank if I move that grassy looking plastic plant near the ufo it will cause a big fight between three fish. Crazy.

If it was my tank, to try fix the deaths..problem? here's how I'd go about it..
Try to relax. Coffee..conjure the inner zen so my fish don't get freaked out from the hand of there fish god..lol!
Wash the arm of the fish god before starting to immerse it, with just water outta the tap, no soap.

1.Not clean any filter for now and run just one canister each end and a single power head. Breaking the water surface somewhere so it sounds like a river. Get the water rotating with the current. 
2.Remove 30% water and replace it with fresh water with only tap safe. no Bb or stress coat/zyme or salts, medicine nothing just clean dechlorinated water.
3. Make as many caves as possible with the decor on the substrate as possible.
4. Once done cleaning up the mess drips n splashes. If need be another 20% water change like before then Feed em. Causing a complete reset/frenzy. Leave it for half hour or so..
5.observe the dynamic form and tweak rocks slightly where squabbling starts becoming aggressive. 
6.leave it alone. just viewing and feeding. 
Obviously if a body needs exhumed remove it. Also see point 5!
Once im confident it "feels" right leave it until maintenance time. Enjoy its time its taking from you for the reason you wanted it, to have a beautiful easy tank.
I'll do science tomorrow..:-D


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)

Colzilla090 said:


> I think your water "isn't" the main issue here.
> Yes, its very possible it can still be the underlying issue! but I've seen fish do fine in far worse..colzilla090????
> In my opinion this is a stress/fish psychology thing going on...
> 
> Now add excess salt, and the rightly concerned owner trying to help the fish, inadvertently adding stress by trying to fix the water. Correct approach. But tick tick boom..


Wow, thank you and everyone else that has chimed-in so far, and taking so much of your personal time to explain everything in so much detail! I too feel it wasn't the water quality that killed over 35 fish. I was so hesitant to have so many fish (@65) in one tank (specially mixing the cichlids with my existing fish) , however the guy that sold me the cichlids kept insisting and repeating that they will get along fine. It's 100% my fault for not joining a forum like this earlier and getting a 2nd/3rd opinion. 

Based on what you said about hiding spots, I looked for some old plastic plants and other water features (that I had used in the past), washed and soaked them in hot water, and added them into the tank. Should I rearrange the white rocks along the bottom and try to create more hiding spots instead of attacking them on top of each other? The way I have done it, there is space/caves between the rock and the tank that fish use to swim through, and hide. 

Didn't get a chance to do the water change today, as it was too late for me to buy the chlorine remover (without any additives). That will happen tomorrow morning. 

Will keep everyone updated, and thank you again for all the help!


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## Kwik-3-Mart (Oct 5, 2021)

I still think treating for chlorine is a no-risk possible solution. Treat the whole tank with water conditioner as if it was a 100% water change. It won’t hurt and may help a lot. There’s literally no downside.


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)

Kwik-3-Mart said:


> I still think treating for chlorine is a no-risk possible solution. Treat the whole tank with water conditioner as if it was a 100% water change. It won’t hurt and may help a lot. There’s literally no downside.


Doing that this morning. The temperature has dropped @3 degrees in the last 36 hours... from 82 to 79. Last night it was @ 80, even then the difference in 2 degrees is very noticeable... the water "feels" much colder. Can this contribute to further stress, or should I maybe reduce it only @2 degrees from what it has been (down to 80) as opposed to 78?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Reduce it slowly, but 78 is a good goal.


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## Kwik-3-Mart (Oct 5, 2021)

Lankan said:


> Doing that this morning. The temperature has dropped @3 degrees in the last 36 hours... from 82 to 79. Last night it was @ 80, even then the difference in 2 degrees is very noticeable... the water "feels" much colder. Can this contribute to further stress, or should I maybe reduce it only @2 degrees from what it has been (down to 80) as opposed to 78?


You don't have to worry about temp speed changes too much. I keep all my tanks at 75-78 and there's no stress (and tons of breeding). As long as you are over about 68, everyone will be good to go.


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)

Did a 25% (@ 45 gallon) water change yesterday, and added "Prime" water conditioner (sufficient for the whole tank; 20ml).

Lost three fish last evening (2 yellow labs & 1 small peacock) and the large clown loach has not been looking great for the last 2-3 days... think he'll be gone by this evening or tomorrow as well  any idea what those white patches are on its body?

Also re-arranged stuff in the tank yesterday to create more hiding spots and block line of sight from one side to the other.


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## Colzilla090 (Nov 15, 2021)

No way!! :-( Bro...This has to be some form of poisoning..
Sad to see your fish passed away, you done everything possible. It has to be something iffy with your supply water or one of the additives like the tap safe, one of the products might be fouled? Even new it can happen. 
Is the silicon in the tank leaching? Could it be possibly that microban silicon stuff that has antifungal stuff in it? The 3 fish that died look fine? No obvious disease i mean..
Im a bit puzzled!!? 
Sad for you man..


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Let's go back to Strum's columnaris idea or my bloat idea. Are the fish eating? What do the feces look like?


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Your TDS is very high, I'm sure that's not helping the situation. Your Tap TDS is pretty close to Lake Malawi as is.


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)

DJRansome said:


> Let's go back to Strum's columnaris idea or my bloat idea. Are the fish eating? What do the feces look like?


Yes, the fish are eating, however when they start showing symptoms of something wrong, those fish will not eat. I have been doing the epsom salt soaked food (2x/day) for the last five days (what was suggested by one of the forum members).

What would cause the TDS to go up after the water is in the tank?



Colzilla090 said:


> No way!! :-( Bro...This has to be some form of poisoning..
> Is the silicon in the tank leaching? Could it be possibly that microban silicon stuff that has antifungal stuff in it? The 3 fish that died look fine? No obvious disease i mean..
> Im a bit puzzled!!?
> Sad for you man..


About solicone leaching... I don't know. The tank was boug








































ht @10 years ago, however never filled. So it was still brand new when I bought it and set it up in early February. I used aquarium safe silicon when doing the plumbing of the overflow. For some of the pvc fittings, I believe I used Oatey medium black ABS cement (small blue & white can). As of my last post, 4 of 6 of my big clown loaches died. On all the bigger fish though (which is all of them except the yellow labs), I noticed when they died, their stomach's were a bit more bloated than normal. I hate to post pictures of dead fish, but if it helps reveal the cause of all these fish dying (@ 40 since 3/18), it's worth it.


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)




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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Lankan said:


> What would cause the TDS to go up after the water is in the tank?


Normally from buffering but it can also be from bioload. I was assuming this was a buffering issue, because the numbers are so high.


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)

I have lost two more of my small peacocks, two large clown loaches, and a few more yellow labs since my last post on 4/4/22. 46 of my 63 fish are now dead, and the crazy thing is I have no idea what is causing it. Water samples I checked last night show normal levels of Ammonia & Nitrate (very similar to the ones I have posted in the past).

One detail I left out from the initial post is that there were another 12 fish (Cherry Red Tropheus) in the 180-G tank (part of the new colony I got on 2/17). However I felt they were too aggressive, as my loaches (both clown & yoyo) were hiding and not coming out at all since I had combined the two colonies of fish. So I made the decision on 3/6 to take them out and put them in a different (30-G) tank. They too started dying starting @3/20 (a few days after fish started dying in my 180-G tank). The most recent one that died was this morning, however there are still 5 of them left. The ONLY thing I did different in that tank was not give them as much frozen Protein food (for example I may have given them the frozen food only once, whereas on the 180-G I had fed them this food 2x/week for @2 weeks prior to 3/18). I was initially thinking of selling these fish, however once they started dying, decided not to, as the last thing I wanted was someone else getting fish that may have a problem.

Another detail I had forgotten to mention is on 3/13, @ 5 days before the first fish died, I added some small floating plants/tiny snails (some as small as a large grain of sand) into the refugium. These were given to me by my neighbor who has no fish, however has a tank full of plants and snails, and said it would help in "balancing" everything out. I had mentioned this to the local aquarium shop, however they said that wouldn't have anything to do with why my fish were dying. I also added these plants/snails into the 30-G tank in which the separated Cherry Red Tropheus were that same day.

Just thought I would include this information, is case it helps identify what actually happened in my tank that has been so fatal to so many of my fish... and the dying hasn't stopped yet.

The copper treatment has been in the tank for two weeks now. Shoud I add some carbon into the refugium, and then add the plants back (which I have been keeping in a bucket)? If so, how long does the carbon need to work before I can add the plants back in?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Are they still eating? Any report on feces?


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## Colzilla090 (Nov 15, 2021)

I've been looking at the photos and I still think is possibly a traffic in the room/window glare-shadow spooking them, plus the blue background., never been a fan. Also, on top of this is the fish dynamic/stock + trying to "repair" the water due to losing fish, medicine, salts its just to much stress.
You may need to relocate the tank to a darker corner. Fish need to feel safe or they'll just get stressed and ill or just give up and die.
I'd be curious what an autopsy would return!


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

If the problem is your buffering, then it would make sense that your Tanganyikan fish are tolerating it slightly better than the others. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)

marten said:


> If the problem is your buffering, then it would make sense that your Tanganyikan fish are tolerating it slightly better than the others.


Actually it's the opposite... the Tanganyikan fish all died within @2 weeks starting March 18. I'm down from @65 fish in the 180 Gallon tank down to 15 fish:


6 Clown Loaches (4-5” in size) – 1 left
2 Yoyo Loaches (6” in size) – both alive
2 Pleckos (4” & 8”) – both alive
4 Asst Peacocks (3-6” in size) – Two 6" ones alive
5 Bleekeri (2-3” in size) – all alive
3 Blue/black striped fish (4” & two 1” babies) – all dead
4 Brichardi Albino (3-4” in size) – all dead
8 Yellow Murago (3-4” in size) – All dead
6 Duboisi Maswa (3-4” in size) – All dead
23 Yellow Labs (1-2” in size) – 3 alive
The next two fish showing symptoms of dying are the two remaining large Asst Peacocks. They are not eating (losing weight), their eyes seem larger than usual, & breathing heavy. I will post some pictures of them as well as what the feces look like shortly. The odd thing is that the 5 Bleekeri have almost doubled in size in the last 4 weeks since all the other fish started dying. I really feel helpless for the remaining fish in the big tank.

My other 30-Gallon tank is down to 4 Cherry red Tropheus, and they seem healthy.

I feel I have the following choices:

1) Do nothing, and let the remaining 15 fish in the 180-G be... kind of survival of the fittest, and leave the 4 Cherry red tropheus in the 30-G.
2) Move the 15 fish from the 180G tank into the 30-G tank, as I feel something is still "off" in this tank for the fish to still keep dying. I feel the smaller tak will be too crowded for all of them though.
3) Move the 4 Cherry red tropheus from the 30-G into the 180-Gallon, and again it will be survival of the fittest. I would leave the 30-G empty for now (no fish), but still cycling, as this was originally my quarantine tank.
4) Re-commission by 110-G glass tank with the Fluval FX6 (50% existing water from the 180-G & 50% new water), add bacteria, let it cycle a couple of days, and add all the fish into that tank.


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)

Here's a few pictures of the Asst Peacocks and the feces...


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The clear thready feces are a symptom of bloat. Treat with metronidazole as soon as possible. For the large tank I would decide what type of fish (new world, Tangs, Malawi) I want to keep and swap out the rest.


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)

DJRansome said:


> The clear thready feces are a symptom of bloat. Treat with metronidazole as soon as possible. For the large tank I would decide what type of fish (new world, Tangs, Malawi) I want to keep and swap out the rest.


I had taken a dying fish @3 weeks ago to the local aquarium, and they suggested to use CopperSafe (which I added on 3/29), as they concluded it was some kind of parasite in the tank. The bottle says it is effective for one month, so should I add a bag of carbon into the filtration system to remove the Coppersafe (and if so, @how much carbon, and for how many days), before adding the metronidazole?


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

If you place a 'bag' of activated charcoal/carbon in your filtration system, it should be enough to remove the medication. I would leave the carbon bag in the aquarium for a maximum of 30 days. 
-
You can dose with the metronidazole whenever you want. That medication is administered best and most effectively internally (your fish ingest it with their food).


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)

I'm assuming either one of these would work?? The direction say to use 500mg/10 gallons and treat every other day for at least five days (minimum of three treatments). As my total capacity is @200 gallons that would be 20 tablets of the "Fishbiotic" brand/ treatment. I have also read that it's best to dissolve a tablet in water (let's say 10ml), then soak the food in it for @10-15 minutes. Would this be a better approach?? I guess it won't help the fish that aren't eating.

The other thing I can do is move all the fish into the 30-gallon tank and treat them in there? 

Some sited say to remove carbon before adding any medication


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You can treat in a smaller tank, but will all your fish be comfortable in a 30G for a week or more in a 30G? I dissolve in a small container and soak the pellets for just long enough so they don't get mushy (no where near 10 minutes) and dump the whole mess in the tank. I have had success treating both eaters and non eaters with Metro.


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)

Update... last Saturday (4/23/22), I was frustrated with the un-ending death, and thought long and hard, and decided to move everything from my existing 180-gallon tank into my old 110-gallon glass tank with the FX6 filter. I transferred everything over (sand, rocks, fake plants, both fake and real wood, etc). I only transferred over @20 gallons of the old water from the 180-gallon tank The remaining water was from the faucet, treated with Prime Seachem concentrated conditioner, and some Microbe-Lift bacteria. This was in the early afternoon, and I added the fish that same night. I did not add any aquarium salt. 

The fish I have remaining from the initial 65 are the following 12 fish:

1) 1 Clown loach
2) 2 Yoyo loaches
3) 2 Pleckos
4) 5 Bleekeri
5) 2 Yellow labs

From the next day onwards I saw an almost immediate change, as all 3 loaches and yellow labs that were hiding 24/7 in the 180-gallon tank were now actually swimming around out in the open. However, the only fish that come out (to the top) to eat each evening for the past week are the Bleekeri. I give sinking food, so I could see all the other fish eating a little bit except for the two yellow labs. One yellow lab died last evening (after 1 week in the smaller tank), so 11 fish remain. Overall, the fish seem happier in this "smaller" 110-gallon tank. The feces of the fish still have the clear stringy parts in some sections, and most of the feces is from the large 8" plecko. 

The main differences between the two tanks:

110-gallon: Black background, and against a wall that does not face any windows.
180-gallon: Blue background, and against a wall that does get more natural light during the day.

Could one/both of these factors (background color and exposure to natural light) cause fish to get stressed out and die?? This seems to be the only logical reason, as my one remaining clown loach is somehow surviving in the smaller tank. 

I now have the 500mg Metronidazole tablets. As some of you advised, I will dissolve one tablet in water and soak the food in it starting today, and every other day for 5 days (total of 3 treatments). Hoping this will save my remaining fish!

Thank you again for everyone's input!


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)

Picture of the 110-gallon current setup running the FX-6


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would be looking for something attached to the problem tank (silicone?) that is not attached to the healthy tank. Are the backgrounds inside the tanks? You are still getting zero ammonia and nitrite?


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## Lankan (10 mo ago)

DJRansome said:


> I would be looking for something attached to the problem tank (silicone?) that is not attached to the healthy tank. Are the backgrounds inside the tanks? You are still getting zero ammonia and nitrite?


As I had mentioned previously in the thread, the 180-gallon tank was a new tank... it was built @Ten years ago, the guy bought it, and due to life circumstances, he never set it up. The silicone I used for the piping in the overflow was aquarium safe. The blue background in the 180-gallon tank is on a plastic panel glued onto the INSIDE of the tank. My 110-gallon glass tank has the black background on the OUTSIDE.

The ammonia and nitrite are still zero.


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