# Prime example of Hybrid hate



## Nathan43 (Jul 9, 2007)

This craigslist listing is exactly why people have a problem with hybrids. Observe the quote "Just to make sure they are not used as feeders"
Wow
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/for/719321335.html


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## dogofwar (Apr 5, 2004)

What's wrong? He's selling them as what they are...

Now if he was selling them as "Texas Cichlids" I'd have a problem.


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## heylady (Oct 14, 2004)

I don't get it either. :-? Seems like a pretty straight forward posting and it isn't like he's hiding that they're hybrids.....


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## Sick-Lid-4-Life (Mar 22, 2008)

There is nothing wrong with hybrids, as long as they're sold as hybrids which is exactly what this guy is doing.

Just because a fish is a hybrid doesn't mean it should be used as a feeder or destroyed, if that's what you're implying.


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## Nathan43 (Jul 9, 2007)

Time after time I see people posting on here that when Hybrids are not terminated and go to another person (especially for cheap - a novice's magic word), there is a greater chance of them getting bred or in turn given to another place for either unexpected aggression, too large of size, etc. They then go to another person and so on. That was the point I was making with the fact he/she is going out of their way to ensure they are not feeders. I am actually one who enjoys hybrids, but things like this often lead to a bad conclusion. But then again, maybe I am just hating on a this person for no reason.


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## westwood8183 (Jun 15, 2003)

I see nothing wrong with that ad...


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## FLYFISH509 (Dec 11, 2005)

Your right, there's nothing wrong with the ad! The problem is the people who buy them and what they do with them and so on and so on. If everyone did the right thing than there would be no issue, hybryd all you want but unfortunately there are a few who either don't know what's right by lack of knowledge, ignorance, or desperate to make a buck in these trying times.


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## bulldogg7 (Mar 3, 2003)

> "Just to make sure they are not used as feeders"


I got a kick out of that, so what if they were feeders? It's about the only way he's gonna get rid of 15 of them, what happened to the other dozen or so?


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## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

I can understand the point that Nathan is making. I think what he's getting at is that yes, this seller is very opening selling them as hybrids, but once they're passed on to the buyers, there is no guaranteeing that when the buyer wants to get rid of the fish, that they will in turn sell it or give it away as a hybrid, and so on down the line. Somewhere down the chain, I'm sure someone will start thinking it's a pure fish and the problems arise from there. The seller is also deliberately trying to ensure that all these baby hybrids survive by stating not to use them as feeders, which means there are that many more hybrids being passed around to cause problems.


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

But anyone who cares will know by looking at them that they are hybrids. Those that don't care will just have cool fish.

I might go down and pick one up.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

> But anyone who cares will know by looking at them that they are hybrids.


That isn't always true. There are a lot of crosses even the experts can't tell the differance sometimes.


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## Nathan43 (Jul 9, 2007)

When I signed up here and saw the hybrid hate messages, I never understood the problem, but once I started selling fish online, and a guy who has been keeping fish for years bought a flowerhorn from me (never heard of them at the time) and after explaining the aggression and behaivor to him, he put in a bunch of discus with it. Do not underestimate other people. Right now these hybrids are not a problem, but what if they mated with another convict or texas. The strain would get that much closer to the actual fish...


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

I would like to say that I don't own any hybrids and don't _really_ plan on it but I'm guessing we won't agree on this so I will stop before we get into a uh huh/ nu uh debate.

But I do _respect _your opinions and I think it takes people on both sides of most arguments to keep this world on an even keel.


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## dogofwar (Apr 5, 2004)

It's absurd to say that people shouldn't sell hybrids because the people to whom they're sold could re-sell them as something other than what they are (hybrids).

Should I not sell someone an F1 peacock because they could go on to re-sell it as a wild fish of a different geographical varient?

Happens all the time. By accident and on purpose. Especially with females.


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## Nathan43 (Jul 9, 2007)

I wasn't pointing at the fact that he/she shouldn't be selling them, it was more of me understanding the hybrid outbreak problem and how these things come about. Like I said, I was wrong for hating on the seller.


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## RyanR (Apr 29, 2008)

I can respect the initial opinion, but....many fish bought in the hobby as a given species have been bred in captivity for so long that they're arguably not really the same kind of animals as their "wild" brethren anyway.... and depending on the definition of "species" that you like, many fish that have been in and bred in the hobby are technically already a different species.

Some hybrids are kinda lame, but if it works, it works. While rare in animals, hybrids do happen all over in nature.

If you're trying to be "pure" about everything, you're already hosed, unless you are buying wild caught fish... and as many fish are already endangered, catching wild fish for pets is really and truly unethical to me, much more so than hybrid fish.... as is terminating/killing hybrids, in fear that they may "contaminate" the hobby gene pool. Seems wrong. I don't support intentionally breeding hybrids, but if it happens by accident... and some fry survive... why not?

Remember, dumping a bucketful of captive bred fish into a wild population arguably "contaminates" the wild gene pool.

I still don't like parrots, though. 

-Ryan


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

i see nothing wrong with this at all, it is wrong of him to not want the little fish used as feeders :-?


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## Sick-Lid-4-Life (Mar 22, 2008)

I wouldn't want my babies used as feeders


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## Aquamojo (Jan 4, 2003)

Nathan43 said:


> Right now these hybrids are not a problem, but what if they mated with another convict or texas. The strain would get that much closer to the actual fish...





> Much closer to the actual fish.


 Ya gotta love it. Isn't that like saying almost good enough? :-? Hybrids are a scourge on the hobby that unfortunately isn't going to go away.


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## Sick-Lid-4-Life (Mar 22, 2008)

What people either fail to realize or just simply want to ignore is that fish hybridize in the wild as well.


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## xalow (May 10, 2007)

"What people either fail to realize or just simply want to ignore is that fish hybridize in the wild as well."

I think that some people might not be aware that cichlid cross in the wild however I think that it isn't really relevant to this debate.

According to the only scholarly book I have read about cichlids, by George Barlow, cichlid hybridiziation in nature is rare enough not to influence the gene pool of the entire population. Furthermore it is suggested and backed up through some experimentation that cichlids are more likely to hybridize with increased water turbidity (or murkeyness) particularly in Victoria where effluent and human impact have changed the water quality.


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## Sick-Lid-4-Life (Mar 22, 2008)

I never said wild hybridization influenced anything. I'm only saying that it's something that also happens naturally so everyone's hatred toward them seems ridiculous to me.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

But natural hybridization is rare at best... so it's a weak argument that such hybridization is "natural"....

Like Ryan suggested... our aquarium stains are already a step away from their natural descendants... but is this a reason to separate them further? or a reason to keep better breeding practices and keep them closer to the natural variants...

To say "it's already screwed up, so let's screw it up even worse!" is a very irresponsible viewpoint...

Itâ€™s a shame when human influence equals species degradationâ€¦


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## Aquamojo (Jan 4, 2003)

As stated...it does happen in the wild. More often than not it's due to man made intervention. At Media Luna, Mexico the beautiful Hericthy Labridens (Media Luna) is being cross bred out of existence with the introduced Hericthys Carpinte "Rio Verde". It's really a shame. It does occur, but not with the regularity that it does in the tanks of aquarists. You won't see a crossed Amphilophus/Vieja-Paratheraps in the wild.

My personal opinion is that it's just plain stupid to do it...but I realize that many own and really care for their hybrids. It's all about education and keeping the hobby going forward. At every turn I will push the pure bred species...but I certainly respect the opinion of others to do otherwise.


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## Sick-Lid-4-Life (Mar 22, 2008)

Toby_H said:


> But natural hybridization is rare at best... so it's a weak argument that such hybridization is "natural"....


Wrong, it is exactly that! Natural



Toby_H said:


> To say "it's already screwed up, so let's screw it up even worse!" is a very irresponsible viewpoint...


No one said or even suggested that.

I stated that it happens in the wild. Most people don't know that or want to ignore that fact and hate anything that they think is a hybrid of some sort. Believe it or not, it's quite possible that fish we call pure today started out as a hybrids many many years ago. Do your research, fish in the wild change appearances over time, as do other animals.


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## cage623 (Feb 2, 2008)

First of all I will have to say that I am for the most part not for hybrids in our hobby.

However, having said this, I don't really think directly what this person is doing is wrong. This person has some fish and is selling them for what they are. I can't rightfully get mad about that. The thing that upsets me is the people that either knowingly or not sell hybrids and true versions of cichlids.

I also know that the practice of selling hybrids is just going to increase the amount of fish that are sold as one thing but are truly a mix of two or more.

This is, like I have said before, like selling someone a hamburger that is labeled 100% beef but is really 50% beef and 50% pigeon. If I am going to spend money on something I would like it to be what I was told it is.

I am sure that these fish in question are going to be sold to someone that will be very happy with them. They will also know what they are getting, so no harm no foul.

That's just my two cents.


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## Sick-Lid-4-Life (Mar 22, 2008)

Ew a pigeon burger, LoL


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Sick-Lid-4-Life said:


> Toby_H said:
> 
> 
> > But natural hybridization is rare at best... so it's a weak argument that such hybridization is "natural"....
> ...


I firmly stand by my statement... it is very rare in the wild... as described above by Xalow when it does take place in the wild it is most commonly a result of human interaction... I've done my research... and this argument is weak at best... I stand by my statementâ€¦



Sick-Lid-4-Life said:


> Toby_H said:
> 
> 
> > To say "it's already screwed up, so let's screw it up even worse!" is a very irresponsible viewpoint...
> ...


You are rightâ€¦ no one directly suggested thatâ€¦

But what I do see people doing is suggesting that since hybridization happens in the wild, itâ€™s okay for us to do it in captivityâ€¦ Which I feel is the exact same thing as sayingâ€¦ see itâ€™s already screwed up, so letâ€™s screw it up some moreâ€¦

I never said anything opposing the sale which started this conversation. Each individual has the freedom to hybridize their fishâ€¦ But just because we have the freedom to do it doesnâ€™t mean we should do itâ€¦ and the seller and I have different views on the responsibility of breedingâ€¦ Itâ€™s worth discussing but not worth arguing overâ€¦


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## Sick-Lid-4-Life (Mar 22, 2008)

Toby_H said:


> I firmly stand by my statement... it is very rare in the wild... as described above by Xalow when it does take place in the wild it is most commonly a result of human interaction... I've done my research... and this argument is weak at best... I stand by my statementâ€¦


Stand by what you want but if something happens in the wild that makes it natural. Human interaction has nothing to do with it because it happens without human influences. The only weak thing is your side of the argument :lol: It's been shown that not only fish but other animals will and can hybridize, yes it's rare but it happens.


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## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

Just because it happens every once in a blue moon in the wild, does not mean it's something we should deliberately create in our tanks.


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## Sick-Lid-4-Life (Mar 22, 2008)

Never said that but that's a whole different debate.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Sick-Lid-4-Life... let's keep our maturity in tact here... it's not a competition it's a conversation...

If the wind is blowing hard enough... water can flow up hill... but to say that water naturally flows up hill is not true...


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## Sick-Lid-4-Life (Mar 22, 2008)

Pft, please


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## MetalHead06351 (Oct 3, 2007)

it seems that all of the REAL points in this argument have been made, time and time again, and anything else is just for arguments sake. My idea for all of this is we should have some sort of 'hybrid' section of this site so everyone can hate on each other in peace :lol:


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Have you posted that in the suggestions thread for the site *MetalHead06351*? Might be a good idea.


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## MetalHead06351 (Oct 3, 2007)

naw, just came to me as i re-read this whole post. maybe i'll do that.


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## andregurov (Oct 19, 2004)

Sick-Lid-4-Life said:


> Stand by what you want but if something happens in the wild that makes it natural.


And what bearing does that have on the discussion?

Again, the problem with the ad is not with the ad's poster but with the very fact that the hybrids are changing hands. Some argue that deceitful actions can happen irregardless; that even purebred fish can be misrepresented. That is true, but the potential for accidental (or intentional) misrepresentation of hybrids and the problem that causes is far more likely and far more detrimental to the hobby.


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## oscarlover43055 (Jun 7, 2008)

I saw this same add in Columbus. Be careful.


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