# Selling Fish to LFS



## DFishFox (Sep 27, 2011)

One or two times I've mentioned to a LFS about selling my fish to them. They told me I needed a license to "Sell Fish".... Yet, I read on these forums abroad about people selling fish back to the stores... 
I have taken fish to a Cichlid store in Daytona, only to get seriously ripped off for the value of the fish. 
half dozen mbunas (good size) and a pair of large Jack Dempsey's.. for $20 store credit.
Just one of their Juvie fish ate that credit up and still had to pay $3.

I know they'll sell one of the JD's for triple that.. Not to mention I had to drive/deliver 1 1/2 hours to get there, then trip back.

[[[Toilet Flush]]] <there's my money :?

So for future references what are the rules/laws about selling the fish to a LFS for cash or credit?


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## Aulonocara_Freak (May 19, 2011)

There is no license that I know of that's needed to sell the normal fish. Illegal fish and plant's you need a license, or you can do it secretly.


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## DFishFox (Sep 27, 2011)

Well after rewording my search a dozen times I found this.....

http://www.ehow.com/how_6827409_do-fish-breeder_s-license-florida_.html


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## reflexhunter (Jul 25, 2009)

Find a different Lfs.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The LFS will usually pay you wholesale price in store credit. So yes, they will sell the fish at 3X what they pay you for them.


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## clgkag (Mar 22, 2008)

I imagine if you were going to raise and sell fish on a large wholesale scale you would need the license. Selling the occasional few fish to the store probably won't require one. I would just look for a different LFS. As DJRansome said, you won't get much for your fish and they will sell for a bunch. That is how every business works, buy low sell high. Unless you are raising something uncommon that sells well, don't expect to get much out of them at a LFS.


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## DFishFox (Sep 27, 2011)

DJRansome said:


> The LFS will usually pay you wholesale price in store credit. So yes, they will sell the fish at 3X what they pay you for them.


You missed the part where just one of the fish traded would be sold triple the amount I got for all eight... So yeah... {{{Toilet Flush}}}

I assumed these chains all had the same standards.. Like Pet supermarket, petsmart, petco..

But I'lll try a couple different locations, keep 'em crossed


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*DFishFox*
to rehome a pet fish, all you need to do is be able to show where you bought your fish from. To breed and sell fry from your breeding cichlids, you do need to be lic in the State of Florida. You will also want to keep records proving you operate at a net loss to avoid the tax man.

I know that what I'm typing sounds like it cannot be true, but it very much is... I've even spoken to different agencies to confirm it. The consistent answer, if a FWC officer ever decided to make your life miserable, they could without your Aquaculture permit.


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## Chromedome52 (Jul 25, 2009)

Florida has very strict laws about selling to fish stores. The aquarium fish industry is a major part of the economy for the state, and they passed this law some years ago to try and protect it. In other states, a private breeder with a good reputation may sell excess fish to stores, but as noted above, they have to mark up the fish tremendously from wholesale. Bear in mind, they have a store to pay rent on, electricity bills, water bills if in a municipal system, taxes, wages if they have employees, not to mention social security taxes and possibly health insurance if they have full time employees. And that's whether they are selling anything or not. I think anyone who runs a fish store these days is crazy.

Regardless of what state you are in, Pestmart and Petco cannot buy fish from local breeders, it's contrary to corporate policy. They have to order via corporate channels.


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## DFishFox (Sep 27, 2011)

> to rehome a pet fish, all you need to do is be able to show where you bought your fish from. To breed and sell fry from your breeding cichlids, you do need to be lic in the State of Florida. You will also want to keep records proving you operate at a net loss to avoid the tax man.
> 
> I know that what I'm typing sounds like it cannot be true, but it very much is... I've even spoken to different agencies to confirm it. The consistent answer, if a FWC officer ever decided to make your life miserable, they could without your Aquaculture permit.


Pet Supermarket around here doesn't label the fish on your receipt. It just say fish $x.xx. So there goes proving where I bought them. The rest is believable except being able to claim a net loss repeatedly. My father ran a small biz, said can only claim loss up to initial 3 years from opening. His word isn't 100% logically, but I'd hope he understood it.



> Florida has very strict laws about selling to fish stores. The aquarium fish industry is a major part of the economy for the state, and they passed this law some years ago to try and protect it. In other states, a private breeder with a good reputation may sell excess fish to stores, but as noted above, they have to mark up the fish tremendously from wholesale. Bear in mind, they have a store to pay rent on, electricity bills, water bills if in a municipal system, taxes, wages if they have employees, not to mention social security taxes and possibly health insurance if they have full time employees. And that's whether they are selling anything or not. I think anyone who runs a fish store these days is crazy.


This store or property is owned by them for over a decade, there's two employee. What appear to be Father & Son.. I've never asked. But I do know they are the only two maintaining the place which is fueled by well water pumped from below. I'm business savy enough to know the overhead cost of that biz is not that bad. They breed their fish in the backyard farm and between their multiplying stock and practically donated inventory; they are making a killing. Cause the place is as busy as a Brothel all week except Wednesday which is closed.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I think you need to adopt a different perspective. They don't need your fish. They could get what you're offering elsewhere. They're doing you a favor by giving you any store credit at all. That's the business side of things. If you feel ripped off, go somewhere else. Why get bent out of shape over these guys? The reality is you need them more than they need your fish. Take what they'll give you and be happy you have a place to rehome fish. You asked for opinions, that's mine.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Also not every LFS will even buy your fish for store credit. The chain pet stores around here will not do this. I've only found the stand-alone, privately owned LFS that specialize in cichlids want to buy fish and only if they have a need, and only if you don't bring in too many at once. I always call first.

That's exactly right...they can get the same fish I am selling them by driving an hour. The only advantage to buying from me is it saves them the trip. But I do not provide a steady, on-demand supply either.

Were the 8 you sold juveniles? Was the one you purchased an adult? Same species? I use store credit for things that would be expensive shipped...like substrate. Or I might buy BN plecos...something like that.


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## DFishFox (Sep 27, 2011)

prov356 said:


> I think you need to adopt a different perspective. They don't need your fish. They could get what you're offering elsewhere. They're doing you a favor by giving you any store credit at all. That's the business side of things. If you feel ripped off, go somewhere else. Why get bent out of shape over these guys? The reality is you need them more than they need your fish. Take what they'll give you and be happy you have a place to rehome fish. You asked for opinions, that's mine.


You are right. I guess I'm more bent about the lack of options in my state.. like a monopoly.



> That's exactly right...they can get the same fish I am selling them by driving an hour. The only advantage to buying from me is it saves them the trip. But I do not provide a steady, on-demand supply either.
> 
> Were the 8 you sold juveniles? Was the one you purchased an adult? Same species? I use store credit for things that would be expensive shipped...like substrate. Or I might buy BN plecos...something like that.


Not juvi's. All proven breeding Africans, except the JD pair. So they were good sizes. Good idea on getting bang for the buck


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## Narwhal72 (Sep 26, 2006)

Keep in mind that the larger a fish is the less marketable it is. A LFS will sell 100x more juvenile fish than adults.

Large cichlids like JD take up a higher percentage of valuable tank space and often sit for a long time.

To put it in business terms. It costs the same to run a 20 gallon tank in the store for one month whether it has one pair of cichlids or 100 guppies in it.

If you sell 25 guppies a week at $2.99 then that tank made $300 for the store that month.

If you have a pair of cichlids in it at $59.99 for the pair and you were able to sell that pair the tank made $59.99. If you were able to sell one pair a week you would be able to make $240 that month for the store.

Its in the stores best interest not to take in the large fish and displace the smaller more profitable fish but many do so in order to keep their customers happy.

I am sure this factors into Petsmart and Petco's policy as well. They probably spend more time and money analyzing their profit/loss on livestock than anyone else.

Andy


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## DFishFox (Sep 27, 2011)

*Narwhal72*

You make total logical sense. If the business had to weigh out what to do with its tank space. This place does not sell guppies.. Maybe a few types of tetras, but is wall to wall with cichlids indoors. Out side has more than that in cichlids.. People come from all over the State of Florida to get cichlids from them. People do buy the big guys too..
The fish I trade would not be sold as a pair.. they sell individuals. They have huge tanks for the big boys and smaller ones for the opposite. Tank space is definitely not a concern of theirs..

The Store buys 3 Fish (A) from wholeseller @ $1.99ea, marks it up to $16.99ea.

They take my Fish Group (B)
M and F Johanni's 
M and F Metriclima Msobo (Deep) 
M and F Auratus 
Obliquiden Thick skin 
Red tail sheller 
Kenyi 
M Auratus 
Rare Labidochromis 
L. Trewavasae 
Red top hongi 
Chewere 
Jewel

Give me $41 in credit which I take and use for the 3 Fish (A)'s and I still owe $10

The Red Top Hongi Alone, at his size sells for $15.99. 
MEANING:
For Fish (A) x3 @ a total investment of $5.97 brought them at minimum just one fish from Group (B) that will bring an ROI (return on investment) of around 300%
Chewere @ $12.99...... and the list could go on..

Which the above described happened last night.

So actually it would seem they need trade in's like a video game store. Only the resell on fish don't take a cut with "used" and there is little to no buy in.. 
The "They don't need my fish" mentality seems the same sales tactic as trading a car in which I'm made to feel there isn't worth in what I have. But the numbers above argue substantially..


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## Narwhal72 (Sep 26, 2006)

Sorry but your not making a good argument.

1. Guppies or juvenile cichlids. Same result just different name. I only used guppies as an example. It could just as easily have been 1" yellow labs.

2. Markups for fish are typically the same whether they are purchased from a wholesaler or from a trade in. Usually 3x or 4x the landed cost. Remember that the store still has to make up their overhead or "burden". The difference between the Sale price - (Landed cost + Burden) is their profit. Often this is a fairly small value and may even be negative on some items (and they hope they make it up on others). You have it at an 8x markup (not counting burden) which seems way out of line. Burden for livestock is at least double the landed cost for a small fish and may be much higher for a large fish. If they feel that that's what they have to price their fish at to remain profitable then they have a really high burden to contend with.

3. Tank space is definitely a concern for any good retailer. Your kidding yourself if you don't think it is. It directly affects their cost and profitability. But many lfs are run by enthusiastic hobbyists who may be great fishkeepers but lousy businessmen.

I have been in the tropical fish business for 25 years and have a lot more experience in this than you think.

Andy


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## DFishFox (Sep 27, 2011)

Unfortunately the quality of my argument is subject to "opinion"

While I think it is and you do not.. Your level of experience doesn't affect my argument. 
Although, I'm not sure what you think we are "arguing" about... other than there is a exceptional gain from good trade-in fish which denotes a NEED.

Not sure if you're trying to argue the available space of the establishment or just arguing my perspective. Cause if you KNOW either then great.
I've already addressed the overhead cost for "This" business.. which is very low in comparison to others who do not own their property or have more employees or do Not breed their inventory.

It does baffle me how you do not see the simple numbers that result from buying a wholesale fish @ X value and getting exponential value in return.

The fish are not resold as "used" fish.. They are sold as larger ones which carry a higher price tag. They are not bulbous pleco's; they fit into the breadwinner category of the business.

Let's say I own a car dealership...
And I went to an auto auction and bought a Nissan Sentra for dirt cheap and someone came to me to trade in an Altima and they still paid $$$. Yeah.. ALL business politics aside... I shouldn't have to think of more examples to make it clear on the gain here.

ANYWAYS.. this thread was started because I wanted to know what my "options" were when dealing with any LFS on trade-in or selling fish ultimately leading to more options to take fish to. People felt the need to chime in an justify the cost of a business or space in the business they may not be familiar with... I felt different. It Should go without saying all business' do not have the same overhead cost.

Perhaps it would've been better to title this thread as "Where else can I go in Florida to trade or sell fish?" 
So, I'm going to leave this one alone before anyone else acts more emotional than Me with My $$$

Thanks to those with legitimate suggestions to what I needed to know


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## Adrian101 (Jan 24, 2011)

Have you tried haggling over the price. If they say 20 then say i was thinking more like 40. Treat it like trading in a car. Your offering them goods not trying to get rid of some. If their price is too low don't sell to them and go to Craigs list.


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## DFishFox (Sep 27, 2011)

Adrian101 said:


> Have you tried haggling over the price. If they say 20 then say i was thinking more like 40. Treat it like trading in a car. Your offering them goods not trying to get rid of some. If their price is too low don't sell to them and go to Craigs list.


Excellent Idea. Thank you

I can negotiate just never thought to at the fish store... :thumb:


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## Narwhal72 (Sep 26, 2006)

The point I am trying to make to you is that you will have a different value in your mind for what the fish are worth than the dealer. This can be quite different from what the actual market value of the fish is.

Your viewpoint is decidedly one sided and not fair to the dealer. In addition you have made several assumptions and statements that are likely untrue.

I would hope that a little education about the tropical fish business would enlighten you but it seems that I have failed.

Anyways good luck selling your fish in the future.

Andy


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## DFishFox (Sep 27, 2011)

> The point I am trying to make to you is that you will have a different value in your mind for what the fish are worth than the dealer.


I read their price tags, I see them sell.... What misconceptions could I have about market value?
In fact don't answer that..



> decidedly one sided


Decided after considering the facts...



> not fair to the dealer


 ???????????????
I'm not sure what level of fairness you are looking for... Never mind fair for the consumer. 
Not fair for the dealer.. might be Online businesses running them out of business because they sell fish cheaper and shipping is cheaper than driving. 
Not fair is how a particular Online business can sell the same fish for half the cost and have two facilities, wanna explain that overhead cost? In fact don't. You already did, good fish keeper, bad biz man.



> In addition you have made several assumptions and statements that are likely untrue.


 An Assumption would be what you're doing about my statements and likelihood to the validity of them.

So.... without further ado .. I'm spent on this subject.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

My personal experience from working at a LFS is that for the trade ins that we get, we offer up to 1/3 of the sale price for fish brought in. This is because: 
1: even if no problems are seen, the fish could carry pathogens that have yet to manifest, and we risk introducing it to other stock (we do QT, but even then contamination is possible)
2: if that fish does get sick, we have to medicate it, which costs money
3: it probably won't be sold immediately, so we have to feed it and house it, which may require an entire tank just for itself.
4: we risk it dying due to stress, transport, etc
5: we don't have to take the fish in; we can most likely order the exact same fish at a much cheaper price.
6: it is a business after all, so in the end we ARE looking for profit.

Hope this helped.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

BelieveInBlue said:


> My personal experience from working at a LFS is that for the trade ins that we get, we offer up to 1/3 of the sale price for fish brought in.


Store credit, not cash right? Or maybe cash is more prevalent in BC?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Perhaps it would've been better to title this thread as "Where else can I go in Florida to trade or sell fish?"


It wasn't the title. It was the rant in the opening post about getting ripped off. You opened the door to the feedback. And just for the record Andy's been a long time member and contributor here who has an incredible wealth and depth of knowledge on a lot of topics. You walked into the store with your fish and accepted their offer without attempting to negotiate a better price. Then you complain of getting 'ripped off'. If they paid what you accepted, you weren't ripped off. They may have paid you a much higher price if you would have only asked. Live and learn. You could have avoided this whole situation if you had more knowledge and experience in doing business with others. Calm down and at least consider the input of all, and you'll learn and grow. Or just get angry and insist you're always right, up to you.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Do you need a licence to sell cichlids at auction there?
Is selling over the net not legal iether?
Or sell em in a different state.
It does sound like the local biusness has all the power due to this licence thing. 

All the best James


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

24Tropheus said:


> Do you need a licence to sell cichlids at auction there? James


To resell fish you simply need to show where you bought them from. The issue arises when you propogate any lifeform. I cannot tell you how awkward it is to frag live corals and resell. Fragging can be considered propogation or it can considered an accidental break. :lol:


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

24Tropheus said:


> Do you need a licence to sell cichlids at auction there?
> Is selling over the net not legal iether?
> Or sell em in a different state.
> It does sound like the local biusness has all the power due to this licence thing.
> ...


Not in my state, LOL. But a retail fish store will not buy fish from a hobbyist and pay cash.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

DJRansome said:


> BelieveInBlue said:
> 
> 
> > My personal experience from working at a LFS is that for the trade ins that we get, we offer up to 1/3 of the sale price for fish brought in.
> ...


It's store credit 

And I used to bring my rams in for trade ins, but then I discovered a local fish forums, and I sell everything on there now. you still don't get what you'd pay in a store, but it's quite a bit closer; I'd get maybe 5 dollars a ram trading in, but I could get anywhere from 5-10 selling on forums.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

DJRansome said:


> Not in my state, LOL. But a retail fish store will not buy fish from a hobbyist and pay cash.


Pretty much the same here in the UK most shops I know of give 30%-33% resale value (also some sell the stuff off at about 1/2 the price they sell stuff from thier wholesalers) credit slip only. But there is/was one that buys homebred cichlids for cash from hobbyists in the UK. :thumb: 
You can bet that they can be pretty selective on what they take. I think they do it partly to up the quality in the shop and partly to get folk into the shop to spend money and stay on good terms with hobbiests.
Iether way it seems to work for them.
One of the most recommended and longest running general tropical fish shops in the UK.  
Personally I tend to sell at cichlid auctions. Stuff I have bred or no longer have a need for.
You do not get much for them but at least you make another hobbiest happy and even support the club running the auction as they take 15-20%.
I guess its real sad if state laws prohibbits hobbiests selling stuff to each other.
It is hard for me to see the advantage in banning this. :? 
(I can see a huge advantage to the shops but the dammage to the general hobby would surely overwelm that?)

All the best James


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

I am pretty sure that the florida rules came about simply out of fair practice to the florida fish farms. If they require an agricultural lic to breed and rear fry, why doesnt the next guy. Size seems a very arbitrary differentiator. 50 frontosa probably sell for more than 1000 tilapia fingerlings... So you cant go on number of fish either... It certainly affects the hobby, but if it damages it, i dont see the damage.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I guess it comes down to how hard is it to get one of the Florida licences?

The damage to the hobby I guess is if it removes competition to raise good cichlids (effectively stopping folk who only want to breed top quality cichlids on a small scale) or puts prices up beyond most custommers reach.

All the best James


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## kaphil (Aug 3, 2006)

I've noticed that in the UK over the years, less and less shops seem to be willing to purchase fish from the hobbyist. I had a good relationship with an LFS which bought my fish for credit notes (one third of what they sold them for) until last time I went in and a new guy was there and he was very reluctant to take them, also gave me a bit of a lecture - 'you wouldn't just go and swap a dog after keeping it a few years, and you shouldn't do so for fish' to which I responded robustly, perhaps a bit too robust as he did have a point. Anyway, we had a truce and he took my fish in the end.  
Over here, hobbyists can sell on 'excess stock' wthout breaking any rules, i.e fish they have bred in the course of their hobby. However, if fish (or any animal) are being bred, bought and sold with the main purpose of making money (i.e in effect it is being done as a business) then a Pet Shop Licence is required. Also, LFS's can be asked by the authorities to demonstrate from where they have sourced their stock, some cite this as a reason not to buy from hobbyists.


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