# Strange type of fin rot followed by Ich



## Smoochy (Dec 8, 2008)

Good afternoon. I am new to this site, and joined because of the vast information I have already found on this site provided by the intelligent members here. I am hopeful that you all can help me as well, as my Blood Parrots are pretty sick now.

I have a 75gal with a gravel bottom, fake plants, and a bunch of hiding spaces for the fish. This is all filtered through an Eheim 2217. I use Amquel + for each water change. I perform 25% water changes RELIGIOUSLY, once a week with the vacuum. I also remove the fake plants and decor as needed for some light scrubbing with warm salt water. (no more than once every month)

This tank has been setup for 3 months, however all water, gravel, the filter, all substrate material and decor has come from my previous 36gal bowfront. I have had these 2 Blood Parrots for 3 years, and even transported them from NJ when I moved here. The other fish in the tank are 2 other Cichlids (forgot the name, one is orange, the other blue with fluorescent dots on the bottom tail fin), one convict Cichlid, and 2 other fish which I am not sure what they are either. They are yellow with black stripes that go up and down. They are fairly long fish.

It all started the day before Thanksgiving. I noticed that the 2 blood parrots, along with the other, smaller orange Cichlid had tears starting in their fins. I immediately researched, and found it was most likely the beginnings of fin rot. I went to the pet store and picked up Melafix and Jungle Anti-Bacteria medicated food. I raised the temp to 80, added some aquarium salt, and administered the Melafix treatment to the full 75gal tank right away. The next day, I made a 25% water change, and administered the recommended amount of 1tsp per 10 gal once again, as well as feeding the medicated food ONLY. By this time, all of the other fish in the tank had slits starting in their fins as well. The next day, I administered the Melafix again and Medicated food.

By this time, I had seen no progress in the right direction with the 3 orange Cichlids. I decided to find out if another medication was necessary. I was informed to try Furan-2. After a 50% water change, I administered the Furan-2 to the full 75 gal. The next day, another dose of the Furan-2. The following day, I performed a 25% water change, administered the Furan-2 again according to the instructions. At this time, all fish in the tank seemed to have improved greatly, except for the 2 blood parrots. I finished the treatment cycle, and decided it would be best to separate the 2 blood parrots, and moved them to a 10gal hospital tank. I then continued with a 2nd treatment of Furan-2 according to the directions on the box which state that the treatment may be repeated if necessary. The next day, they blood parrots had Ich.

I once again started researching and it seems that Ich is a more severe sickness than Fin rot (please correct me if I am wrong, as I am just finding this out by reading) I decided that it would be best to rid them of the Ich, and then continue with the treatment for fin rot once the Ich had gone away. Whether this was the right decision or not, this is what I went with.... So I purchased some Jungle Ich Clear. Before administering this into the previously treated water, I performed a 50% water change so as not to overdose the fish. I then added the Ich treatment. The following day, another 25% water change and another treatment.

This brings me to yesterday... The Ich seems to be gone. Their fins have improved greatly as well, however now their fins have black along some of the tears that was NOT there before the Ich. I am unsure as to what these black marks could be. Also, while the fish look to be getting better, their personalities are not. They have started to stay towards the top of the hospital tank looking for air and will no longer eat. I have an airstone in the tank, and it is being filtered with a 50gal filter. I would think they would have enough air.

At this point I am just unsure of what to do... I don't know if I am doing too much and stressing them out more... I am just trying to prevent them from getting even more sick or dying.

Please let me know if you need any other information.

While researching some more just now, I noticed that one of the mods, Cichlidaholic's avitar is what my blue and orange unknown cichlids that I mentioned above.


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## non_compliance (Dec 4, 2008)

Are you sure you're supposed to do water changes coupled with medication? I've read that a lot of the medications greatly reduce the o2 in the water, as well as the warmer water, and you're not supposed to do water changes for some of them. There's some articles are ICH which were VERY helpful and informative on the lifecycle of the parasite. You should read up.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ich.php


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## Smoochy (Dec 8, 2008)

Thanks for the quick reply.

I too have read that a lot of medications greatly reduce the 02 in the water, and that you should not increase the temp with those medications. I forgot to mention that since I started the Ich treatment, I reduced the temp back down to 76-77* The Ich is not what concerns me, it is the mix of everything all at once that concerns me.

As far as the water changes go, according to the medication directions, they state to do the 25% water changes before dosing again.

At this time I just feel kindof overwhelmed with everything that is going on. I have had fish tanks my whole life, and only had an Ich problem once before a few years ago... actually with these same fish... I used Clout at that time, but I was unable to find that in retail stores here.

I really just want to make sure that I should rid the fish of the Ich first before going back to treating them for the fin rot. I also would like to know the correct procedures for switching over to the treatment of another illness. Take for instance... I treat for the Ich as I am now. The medication states to dose daily once day after spots dissipate. So 2 days after the spots are gone, and I would like to treat them again for the fin rot if it hasn't cleared... what should the process be?


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## Smoochy (Dec 8, 2008)

Well, they seem to be much better at this hour of the day.

What I did today was turn the temp down a little more to 75* Did a 50% water change and started a treatment of quick cure. I kept the tank fairly dark all day, and gave them their favorite log to hide in. They are no longer at the top of the tank, and are actually swimming around now. I then decided to try to get them to eat again, this time I tried some blood worms. I believe they finally ate! I stood there for a while, but had to get back to work... I do not see the blood worms anywhere in there. I'm HOPING they ate them!

I hope they make it through this!


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## Smoochy (Dec 8, 2008)

Well, one isn't looking so great this morning. It's on the bottom of the tank, just sitting there. Sometimes he will fall over and can't get up until I help him back up.

I have been researching ways to humanely euthanize aquarium fish, however I am not sure about these methods. I don't think it's fair for him to suffer anymore though.

Has anyone tried the almost frozen water deal, and did it work right away? Also, how did you bring yourself to do it... I'm not quite sure I could even bring myself to kill it, but I know it's the right thing to do at this point.....


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

First, before I forget, if your fish are orange, they aren't the same fish as the one in my avatar. That is a Metriaclima callainos, or Cobalt cichlid. You may have the blue / red variant of Metriaclima estherae, or you may have M. estherae AND M. callainos!

My main concern is that you had something other than fin rot going on initially. I'm wondering if it could have been beginning Columnaris, and raising the temp made things worse. (At this point, I'd keep the temp where you have it - just in case this is what you're up against.)

Columnaris is usually external, but can also be internal.

And, another confusing tidbit of info...BP's are very sensitive to temperature changes, and become very stressed with any little change at all. (Black spots will show up on them when stressed...)

Columnaris can look like ich initially, when the fish first starts to show signs externally...It can also look like fin rot. So, if you're willing to go through the expense of treating the tank further, I would go that route. A combination of Maracyn and Maracyn II for 7-10 days would be my first choice, but you can also use Kanamycin. It's going to be really important to treat long enough to eradicate the disease. It's deadly, and can be difficult to get rid of, especially if you ever make the mistake of raising the heat in the tank while it's going on - this happened to me and I lost an entire tank of really, really good breeders.

Water changes are always helpful, as long as you do them just prior to adding the meds for the day.

For euthanasia, the best method I've found is to take a plastic container and fill it with tank water. I then add a few drops of clove oil (it doesn't take much) until the fish "goes to sleep". At this point, you've only anesthetized the fish, so you want to put the top on the container and place the bowl in your freezer to finish the euthanization. (A margarine container works great, then you can dispose of the entire thing...)

I can't tell you what to do, but I can tell you that when I had Columnaris in my tank, I had to euthanize several fish - I just couldn't stand watching them suffer anymore.


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## Smoochy (Dec 8, 2008)

Thank you so much for the great reply.

It pains me to basically watch them die while I THINK I am doing everything right, and everything I can to help them...

My one last question is... since I now have medication in the tank for Ich, what should I do before switching to the maracyn? 50% water change?

And I guess I should treat the hospital tank, as well as the 75? The fish in the 75 seem to be fine at this time, but if it is something that is just a matter of time before it effects them, then I will for sure treat it.


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## Smoochy (Dec 8, 2008)

Well, he died on his own. I walked in to take pictures of him and the others to post, and I watched him take his last breath... poor guy, but I know he's much better off now....

Now I have to really find out what is wrong with the rest of them.

Let me now explain as best as I can.

I have 1 blood parrot left, and he is in a 10gal hospital tank. I also have 1 convict cichlid, and 2 Metriaclima estheraes, or red zebras (one orange, and one blue) and then the 2 long striped fish that I can't identify (I have provided pictures). Those are in the 75gal still... I will let the pictures do the rest of the explaining.

This picture shows the fins of the dead BP. They were not *that* bad... they looked at if they were getting better, actually. But you can clearly see the black along the fin that I was speaking of earlier.


















This is my Convict Cichlid. He looks pretty good, except for a few white specs quite a ways under his mouth.









In this picture, you can kinda see what I am talking about, under, and to the side of his mouth. They look faint in the picture, but in person they are quite noticable.









Here, you can REALLY see the specs in the water. Those white squiggles are actually white particles in the water that look like squiggles because of the shutter speed. They honestly look like Ich specs floating in the water, but from what I understand, it is not possible to actually see the ich in that stage... what could this be? 









This is the fish I was saying is an unknown. I have 2 of these, and only one of them has any signs of illness. As you can see, this is the one with the fin deterioration on his top fin.









This is the orange Red Zebra. You can see on the top of his tail fin, there is some deterioration, and it has turned white in color. Today is the first time I noticed this.









Here is a detailed of the dead BP... I don't know if there is anything anyone can tell from this photo... but I figured it may not hurt to post.










And here I tried my best to get the insides of his gills. I read up on Columnaris and it seems that at times it effected the gills.









This is not that great of a picture, and I am sorry, but this is the Blue Red Zebra... He seems fine. 









PLEASE let me know if any other pictures would help. I really don't want to lose anymore fish.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

To remove meds you've already used in the tank, just replace fresh carbon for a few hours in the filtration. That will take care of it, but you can also do a large (30-40%) water change before adding more meds.

I can't really see what you're talking about on the convict...It sounds like ich, but if it is ich, it should be covering the fish by now, so I really think I'd go ahead with a combination of Maracyn and Maracyn II, just to be on the safe side.

The blue zebra does look like a M. callainos rather than estherae, which would produce hybrids with the red zebra, but I can't be certain, and that's not really important right now. He does look somewhat stressed, but this is an odd tank mix with potential for stress, so that's not surprising. (The red zebra and the convict look quite healthy to me in the pics.)

I think someone identified your striped fish in another thread, and said they were quite nippy but didn't generally take on a healthy stronger fish, so what you witnessed may be due to the weakened condition of the BP.

I think the black streaks were caused by stress. I once had a pair of adults, came home from work one day to find one dead on the bottom of the tank, and the remaining one had black streaks all over it. I called a LFS that had a huge display tank of them and they told me that was a very common sign of stress. Sure enough, a couple of weeks later when I brought home another BP, the streaks disappeared from the lone BP I already had.

Once you get this resolved, you may want to consider working on your stocking for this tank, for better chances at long term success.

I would go ahead and treat the other BP in the hospital tank, and keep a very close eye on the remaining fish. You could pick up an antibacterial medicated food made by Jungle and try feeding it to the ones in the main tank as a preventative measure. It is a pellet, and should be soaked in tank water for 20-30 minutes prior to feeding...Don't offer them anything else - they really don't like the taste of it and can be quite stubborn if they know something else is coming their way.


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## Smoochy (Dec 8, 2008)

Thank you again for your very detailed reply.

As of today, the other BP is showing signs of more black streaks on his fins. I believe at this point, I am going to introduce more aquarium salt, and melafix, along with the Jungle Medicated food. (which I actually already have)

I have been keeping the lighting extremely dim, and he has his favorite log to hide in.

In the near future, I plan on re-evaluating the fish in the tank. I have a 36gal that's empty, which could use some life anyway.

Please let me know if my plans for treatment above are correct.

OH and the white spots on the convict.... I believe they were air bubbles, really tiny air bubbles. There is nothing on the fish now. I kinda feel like an idiot about that one


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

You aren't the first person to confuse air bubbles with ich...Just join the club!

Keep in mind that this BP may be stressed by the loss of the other one.

I would eventually move the BP to the 36G, and get him/her a friend. You can then add some dithers. They are just not equipped to deal with the stress or aggression of mbuna.

If the little one doesn't take the medicated food, you may need to treat the water column.

Keep me posted...I've got a soft spot for BPs, as you can probably tell!


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## Smoochy (Dec 8, 2008)

Moochy (the BP that I still have) Is showing improvement. He/she whatever it is, has been eating the medicated food. I have brought the temp up to 78 today, added some salt, and am treating with Melafix. He is much more active now and actually will greet me once again at the side of the tank.

Now, however it seems that the black tipped shark isn't doing too well... it looks like a few of his scales have started to lift and there is a red spot under them.... I need to go read again as I cannot remember what this is or how to treat it.... I have just been reading so much that I can't keep everything straight. I have not been treating the 75g that he's in as everyone has been doing fine. It might be time to start up my 5g to put him into separately to treat.... I never thought I would have all of these tanks running at once.

Thank you for your help, and the great information on this site. I feel much more at ease with treating the fish due to actually being able to figure out what they have.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I just skimmed back through the post, but I don't see any listing of your water parameters???

Raised scales can usually be contributed to dropsy or organ failure, which is usually contributed to poor water quality.

25% weekly is okay, if you've got great filtration.


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## Smoochy (Dec 8, 2008)

It's a 75g filtered by an Eheim 2217. I have a 20" air tube along the back side of the tank for plenty of oxygen.

As of today, this very minute, here are the water parameters:

10g Hospital currently treated with 2 doses of melafix, and 2 tsp of aquarium salt:

PH:7.9
Ammonia: .2 ppm
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5ppm
KH: 200
GH:60
Alk: 3.6
Temp: 81

75g currently untreated, last treated one week ago with Furan2:

PH: 7.9
Ammonia: .1 ppm
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 2.5 ppm
KH: 240
GH: 120
Alk: 3.6
Temp: 78

I hope that helps.

Also, for the black tipped shark- it's about 3 of his scales that are sticking up a tiny bit, and it looks pink under there. I tried to get a picture, but it has been impossible for me to get a decent one that shows anything. I have Clout, Melafix, Furan-2, Jungle anti bac food, quick cure... will any of those work for what he has right now?


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## Smoochy (Dec 8, 2008)

Now the blue guy has a swollen bottom lip, and a white mark on the side of him... this is sooo annoying.

Well.. it's most certainly columnaris. Now that this happened, I can narrow it down.

I have set up the 36. I have the filter for that running at all times in the main tank, so at least that doesn't have to cycle.... I am just going to put everyone in that tank and treat with Furan-2.

Any suggestions??


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## Smoochy (Dec 8, 2008)

I just wanted to update everyone:

I have lowered the temp to 75. I have added salt, and have been using Furan-2 to it's specifications for 3 days now. (and I will continue to do so for another 5 or so days) The blue Red Zebra's mouth is no longer swollen, and has returned to it's original color. The white mark on his side is improving from what I can tell. The bala seems to be improving as well as he has less scales that look a little lifted, and all other fish are doing well at this time.

I can only hope that this will be the end of this infection.

I have removed all water from the 75G and will be cleaning it out with HOT, very salty water. Another member had suggested bleach, which I may also try, as every other suggestion they have given me has been spot on and helpful, to say the least.

Now that I have learned that my fish are not compatible (even though the local fish store said "oh they will work great") I am splitting the fish up between my 2 tanks when everyone is better, and the 75 has cycled again.

I will update this thread when everyone has 100% fully recovered since it's always nice to see a happy ending.... and boy do I hope there is one!

Thanks everyone for your help, it really has helped me get through this and learn a lot.


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