# Carbon dosing?



## oyster dog (Jul 2, 2013)

Has anyone tried carbon dosing in their cichlid tank, like the reefkeepers do? Here's an article that describes what I am talking about: http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index...ar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium

My cichlid tank is 210 gallons with a 65 gallon sump, pH 8.0, GH 13 and KH 7. Last week I added 10 ml vinger/day, and this week I am dosing 15 ml/day. I add it to my sump, and according to my API test kit there is no measureable change in pH after adding vinegar, and I check it 30 minutes after dosing.

One noteworthy effect is my blue-green algae has vanished! I had a small outbreak, but it was completely gone after 4 days. This suppression of blue-green algae has been documented by reefkeepers, too.

Another effect is the odor from my sump. It's in an enclosed cabinet below, and before I carbon dosed it had an earthy scent. Now, the scent is sweeter, but definitely not vinegar-y.

It is too soon to tell if it will reduce my nitrates. My fish are all fine, and I have a yellow lab that is holding.

This is an advanced technique and I DO NOT recommend it to beginners! I did it for years in my reef tank with success. My cichlid tank is large and well-buffered, and can handle the addtion of such small amounts.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Oyster Dog - that article is certainly a fascinating read. Thanks for sharing it! I am purely a fresh water aquarist, and had never heard of carbon/vinegar dosing. In fact, when I saw carbon I immediately assumed your post was about activated carbon, but of course that is an entirely unrelated issue!

From reading the article I would judge that it isn't applicable to freshwater aquariums. Right in the first paragraph it explains that the purpose of vinegar is to provide a carbon source. This carbon is used as food for bacteria, which can multiply and absorb nitrate in the process. What you end up is a bacterial slime that is removed via the protein skimmer of a marine aquarium. In the freshwater aquarium this process does not happen, so you have to manually remove the slime or else it will break down again over time turning back into nitrate. Since the amount of slime we are talking about is probably very small, and it will be spread out over all surfaces of the tank, you might never see it, and removal of it might be impossible. The marine guys have an advantage here with their protein skimmers.

Also, from the article it seems that other carbon sources, such as ethanol, can cause problem in form of blooms of cyanobacteria - which look like algae to the uninitiated. Vinegar does not seem to have this side effect, meaning it does not cause 'algae' to spread. That it actually cuts down on algae is not a claim made in the article.

Anyway, it seems like a nice science project to play around with, and as you said, in a large well established and well maintained tank like yours, a bit of vinegar isn't likely to do any appreciable harm. Please keep us in the loop on how your experiment progresses!


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## oyster dog (Jul 2, 2013)

I'm on week three and adding 25 ml/day vinegar to my tank. A few observations: 1) blue-green algae disappeared after three days, 2) my sponge filter clogs up much faster now, and 3) diatoms have virtually disappeared after three weeks. The tank looks great!

I have very porous limestone in the tank, not at all dense and surprisingly lightweight. I'm thinking they could serve as "live rock", where de-nitrifying bacteria can convert nitrate to nitrogen gas in the presence of organic carbon and low oxygen. So far, there has been no measurable decrease in nitrate (~5 ppm), but I am only in the third week. We shall see.


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## B.Roberson (Nov 6, 2011)

yes,very interesting. What is the point ? reducing nitrates? I am very curious. I dont have a 210 gal tank but is it something that us folks [with smaller tanks] should watch for as far as tank maintenance>


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## walzon1 (Jun 17, 2013)

Just going by the problems I have seen dosing like what you are doing I have seen huge problems. First usually what happens is nitrates eventually hit 0 and things seems great but once 0 nitrates are reached whatever the bacteria that has accumulated from the dosing starts dying off. Once the die off starts huge swings in ph, ammonia you name it occur and fish, and in saltwater cases, inverts, start dying as well.

Whatever bacteria is created through dosing is not similar to what is normally in our tanks and most dosing I have seen has ended in disaster, except where it was done as a temporary thing, and the tank was weaned off in a month or two. If nitrates are close 0, I would suggest slowly weaning off the dosing.


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## oyster dog (Jul 2, 2013)

Yes, the point is to reduce nitrates.

I would like to see someone else with blue-green algae try and see if vinegar is an effective treatment.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

oyster dog said:


> I would like to see someone else with blue-green algae try and see if vinegar is an effective treatment.


From a scientific point of view you would expect vinegar to reduce algae only if you added enough to change the pH, and the algae did not like the acidic conditions. Of course you don't want to do that because your fish might not like it either.

As you pointed out yourself, at the low doses you use, vinegar acts as a carbon source. Bacteria can use that carbon, but potentially plants and algae could use it as well. They usually use CO2[/sub] as carbon source, but CH[sub]3[/sub]-CO[sub]2[/sub]H (vinegar) could be used as well - or be broken down do CO[sub]2 and then be used.

In short, if anything you would expect vinegar to act as a fertilizer. If somebody claimed it had the opposite effect from what common sense suggests, I would need to see extensive data backing up that claim before I believed it, and they would have to come up with a plausible explanation for this unexpected effect


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## oyster dog (Jul 2, 2013)

Blue-green algae metabolism is not my specialty, but this article http://mic.sgmjournals.org/content/49/2/301.full.pdf states that "Most of the species examined are considered to be strict photoautotrophs (Allen, 1952) and their failure to respond to external carbon sources other than carbon dioxide has been noted by many workers." Vinegar is not fertilizer for blue-green algae, at least.

This article http://informahealthcare.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1080/10409230902722783 is a readable discussion of anamox bacteria (bacteria that can reduce ammonia and nitrate to nitrogen gas). The addition of acetate favored their growth, which is what I am trying to achieve.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

oyster dog said:


> Vinegar is not fertilizer for blue-green algae, at least.


OK, they can't take it up, which means it doesn't promote growth. That is understandable. But you suggested it might kill them! That is an entirely different issue


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## walzon1 (Jun 17, 2013)

fmueller said:


> oyster dog said:
> 
> 
> > Vinegar is not fertilizer for blue-green algae, at least.
> ...


From my understanding the bacteria being created by dosing is in direct competition with algae for nutrients, thereby effectively starving out the algae causing it to die off.

I good article about why it is a bad idea
http://www.chucksaddiction.com/dosingsugar.html


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## oyster dog (Jul 2, 2013)

fmueller said:


> oyster dog said:
> 
> 
> > Vinegar is not fertilizer for blue-green algae, at least.
> ...


My blue-green algae completely vanished after three days of dosing. Other reefkeepers have also reported that vinegar dosing eliminated their blue-green algae.

I would like to see someone here with blue-green algae try and see if vinegar also eliminates it.


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## oyster dog (Jul 2, 2013)

walzon1 said:


> I good article about why it is a bad idea
> http://www.chucksaddiction.com/dosingsugar.html


Agreed. Others have reported problems with dosing vodka, or sugar, but not with vinegar.


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## walzon1 (Jun 17, 2013)

oyster dog said:


> walzon1 said:
> 
> 
> > I good article about why it is a bad idea
> ...


I don't see the difference it's all carbon dosing and if you read what the writer points out is that you are artificially creating an over abundance of bacteria both good and bad bacteria which increases the chances of illness in your fish. Im sure it will get rid of nuisance algae but at what cost? IMO playing with a natural process that has worked for a billion years is ludicrous.


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