# My first SA cichlids tank



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Hi All.

new area for me as I’ve been keeping Africans for the last few years and decided to start up a little SA tank. It’s not huge just 105 litres, measurements are H48cm, W76cm, D37cm.

I have a juvenile royal panaque at the moment only a few inches, and before everyone says anything I know they get MASSIVE!!!!!! It’s just in until he gets a little bigger then he is off to my friends 1000 litre.

*** added neutral sand and some big wood, I plan to add a little more wood and some plants too.

I would love an L number pleco once the royal goes, love the blue acara but not sure if my tanks big enough, apistogrammers and rams I think are really nice also but have no idea on how many I could stock.

Any help will be much appreciated.

thanks


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

This posting thread might give you some fish stocking ideas for your aquarium,









What type of set up can I do with this tank? Open to...


Not new to aquarium keeping, but sightly new to keeping cichlids. Open to any suggestions, preferably colorful options.




www.cichlid-forum.com


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

I love the idea of cockatoo cichlids. Do I need a harem or could I have just a few males? Also what about rams? Would they be ok and if so how many 

thanks


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Yes, Apistogramma are best kept in harems. If you stock with all males, expect problems to emerge with fighting for dominance and territory. These scraps won't be as serious as it can get for the excess males in a mixed M/F stocking group. But you could wind up beaten/bullied males that may have to be pulled out. And yes, Rams are a possibility. Extremely sensitive to water quality, they are considered much more difficult to maintain than many other New World Cichlid species.


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Ok I hear u. J hi ow about a pair of blue acaras abs nothing else? Thanks


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Written so poorly. I meant to say how about a pair of blue acaras or will the rank be too small? Thanks


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

The Blue Acara will grow out at 19 to 21cm in adult length. Stocking with a single Blue Acara (while doable...) would be pushing the limits for this tank! Your aquarium is just too small for a pair of that species. Are you interested in stocking this tank, with a (somewhat) compatible pair of Cichlids, as the only fish in the aquarium? Spawning runs, etc....?


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Ok so no to the blue acara. Yes I would be happy to stock it with a pair of cichlids for sure. 
I would rather have one or two good sized fish than a group of smaller ones. thanks


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Hah! 
*"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog."*
_Mark Twain _
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And for anyone who's seen a little Texas or even a Convict Cichlid just basically rip the fins off of fish sometimes three times their size in an aquarium? Whew.... it's easy to get caught up in that trap with New World Cichlids. Substrate spawning Cichlids in general and riverine Cichlids in particular - just don't roll the same way African Rift Lake Cichlids do.
So, a 'somewhat' compatible pair of spawning Cichlids for this little tank? And, by 'good-sized' I assume you want to get the largest species possible that will work out long term at adult sizes?
Okay then....
_Hemichromis sp._
NOT New World! But easily overlooked and just downstream from your beloved Africans, we have the Jewel Cichlid. Hemichromis is actually a pretty big genus of Cichlids, with quite a few interesting species. Some are quite rare in the hobby. The only one I would absolutely say to avoid for this little tank is the _Hemichromis elongatus_, (Five Star General). Too big. Too mean. Too predatory. Just... too much Cichlid for this tank!
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_Laetacara sp._
South American, and distributed throughout the Amazon Basin. This is yet another Cichlid genus with quite a few species represented in it. My personal favorite being _Laetacara dorsigera_, (Red Breast Acara).
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_Cleithracara maronii_, (Keyhole Cichlid). Easily the most sensitive cichlid on this list. The Keyhole Cichlid demands high water quality conditions in the aquarium - or they will just flat out die on you.
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_Amatitlania sp._
Central American, and this is getting a little tougher now. The only one of this genus I can recommend with any full chance of long term success would be with another personal favorite, _Amatitlania nanolutea_, (Yellow Dwarf Cichlid). _Amatitlania sp., (_Honduran Red Point) would be a larger-sized Cichlid you could consider as a riskier choice. Aquarium bred males of this species are known to (usually) present a calmer disposition, than their much more irascible WC brothers and sisters in Honduras.
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The recommended start with all of these species would be with the 'tried and true method', in stocking with an initial 5 - 8 member group, of baby-sized fish. Then just sit back and let 'em work it out amongst themselves. Enjoy all of the games and 'dating drama'! Inevitably a pair from the group WILL emerge. At that point, you pull non-paired fish outta the tank for their own safety - and then observe all of the (non-stop?) spawning action that will soon begin!


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

And then, there is this......


Auballagh said:


> ..... and then observe all of the (non-stop?) spawning action that will soon begin!


I have never kept an African Rift Lake 'Hap' Cichlid before. But, I do know they have some definite _PREDATORY_ aspects to their care and keeping, that may be well served by the rather prodigious amount of fry that can be produced by a 'somewhat' compatible pair of riverine/substrate spawning Cichlids.
TO INFORM: I kept a single female _Trichromis salvini_, that absolutely thrived on a steady diet of her periodic 'allotment' of Red Point Honduran Cichlid fry she hunted down.....
Yep.
An almost continually spawning pair of these things, can be fry-producing MACHINES. So, I recommend you get good ones from a proven line. And preferably as close to WC as possible, if you want to grow out and sell some of the babies for a little cash (or possible trading currency).
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If you establish a 'somewhat' compatible pair of substrate spawning/riverine Cichlids in this little tank? They WILL spawn!


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Wow a lot of choice!! I’m not sure any of these are available locally unless I go to a specialist breeder or dealer. I like the idea of a spawning pair and yes I guess I do have a hungry tank of African haps that would love the odd fry to chase.

my LFS has plenty of Kribensis which look really nice would these work? Or they have festive cichlids that also look really nice.

I like the look of the red points so I’ll have a look into these.

thanks loads


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Yes, a pair of African riverine _Pelvicachromis pulcher_, (Krib Cichlid) would work. These Cichlids are just a little smaller in adult size than the Jewel, but do come in with a bit less ferocity and attitude.
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And yes, a pair of SA _Mesonauta festivus_, (Festivum, Flag Cichlid) could also work. Peaceful! That species can be kind of shy in an aquarium however, if not kept in larger tanks with a more community type setting.


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

So after much deliberation I decided on something we didn’t discuss too much. Today I picked 3 Cockatoo cichlids 1 male and 2 females. Currently they have pretty much the whole tank minus a few baby plecs.

hoping this was a good choice! Could not resist the fins lol. Maybe they will breed who knows I just know I liked them a lot.

map if I stick with apistogrammers as they are small what kind of sticking could I do with them?

all 3 are pretty small at the moment 

here’s a pic of the male.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Congratulations!
We have now just gone full circle on this thing. There is a link (in the posting thread I linked you to earlier), that will have some good suggestions for stocking your little SA aquarium.









What type of set up can I do with this tank? Open to...


Not new to aquarium keeping, but sightly new to keeping cichlids. Open to any suggestions, preferably colorful options.




www.cichlid-forum.com





You may want to actually check that info out this time.... 
Here's some points to consider,

Cockatoos are a cool water Cichlid species.
You are gonna need more than 2 females, as the males can often be some right nasty little thugs. In smaller tanks like yours (with limited room for the females to escape), 1M-4F is considered the right number for this species.
Aquatic Plants Much?


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Ahh my water temp is currently around 79. I do have a baby royal plec growing out in the tank (currently about 2 inches) will he be ok with cooler temps? And no plants yet but getting some in the next few days. Lots of wood though like 3 good size pieces.


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Ok so I’ve just googled water temps and royal plecs like cooler water too…..so I will lower the temp tomorrow to around 75-76


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

But hang on *** just read this on fishlore

“They prefer soft and slightly acidic water with a pH from 6.0 - 7.0 with a KH (carbonate hardness) of 2 - 15 and a temperature of about 79 - 84 F (26 - 29 C).”

so not so cooler temp? What would u recommend my temp to be bearing in mind it’s now got a group of apistogrammers and a royal growing out.

also how many apistogrammers could I now stock? males and females as *** noticed there are many types and the colours are fantastic.


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Also I read that stocking advice but what if I only have cockatoo cichlids? Could i keep more than just 1m and 4 females?
Thanks


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

That Royal Panaque has got to go. They like the water too hot for the health and well-being of your Apistos!
And that is it - a single 1M-4F harem of _Apistogramma cacatuoides_, (Cockatoo Cichlid) are your Cichlids for this little tank. 
or - 
You could add a single individual to the tank of a mid-sized Cichlid species, as a sort of 'centerpiece fish' (tank boss!)
or - 
Look instead into stocking the tank with a supporting cast of interesting and colorful, non-Cichlid fish..


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Really I’ve read that the royal and apistos have similar water temps 🙁


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Royal pleco
Water Parameters : This pleco doese well with these water parameters - pH 6.6 - 7.5 | Temperature : 71°F - 79°F (22°C - 26°C) | Water Hardness : 5° to 15° dH


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Sure!


Chrislisk said:


> so I will lower the temp tomorrow to around 75-76


Too hot!
So, pull the submersible, electric tank heater out of this tank. The Cockatoo Cichlid prefers water temps kept in a range from the mid-60's to the (very) low 70's. Is that the air temperature you are (comfortably) now keeping your home at?
Congratulations - you now have a cool water aquarium! 
Oh, and I have a correction. There are no other Cichlids at a medium size, you can stock this tank with that can be kept in a cool water aquarium. And, in this smaller sized tank I would not recommend stocking with another species/harem of Apistos. 
The 1M-4F harem group of Cockatoo Cichlids will be THE Cichlids stocked in this tank!


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Auballagh said:


> Cockatoos are a cool water Cichlid species


How the heck is a cichlid that comes from very close to the equator considered a cold water fish?
They come from the Ucayali river in Peru. FishBase lists 24-25c (75-77f).https://www.fishbase.se/summary/12282
Seriously fishy lists 22-29c as a temperature to keep them in captivity: Apistogramma cacatuoides (Cockatoo Cichlid) — Seriously Fish 
Just one of many reputable sites on the internet that lists water temperatures that are reflective of the fact they come from the tropics. They are tropical fish!


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Okay then....


BC in SK said:


> How the heck is a cichlid that comes from very close to the equator considered a cold water fish?


That's easy to answer. It's not the nearness in latitude to Earth's equator that matters. It's the regional elevation, nearness to the Pacific ocean and the cooling effects of mountain snow melt water feeding the Ucayali river system. This area of the Amazon basin is in the wrong part of South America for a true, tropical climate. As shown below, _Apistogramma cacatuoides_ come from the Peruvian, western regions of South America:








_Rio Ucayali region of the Amazon drainage basin._

Take a look at that visible topography. See those mountains and valley regions? That region is informed by a rolling countryside, mountains and snow drainage. It is NOT jungle terrain. Temperature is seasonally affected by the Pacific ocean, with temps in the warmer months up to the high 70's. During the cooler, rainy season night time lows can dip into the high 60's.
Take a trip there sometime. While it IS beautiful, you are going to be rained on - A LOT. And that cold wet climate, is definitely gonna keep you in a jacket to stay warm.
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You will cause stress in _Apistogramma cacatuoides_ by keeping them too warm in the aquarium. At 3 to possibly 5 years in normal lifespan, Apisto's don't live very long anyway. Providing (continuous) excessive heat in an aquarium, will shorten their lives even further. This dwarf species comes from white water areas with a lot of current and significant, natural oxygenation of the water. During the rainy season with mountain runoff feeding the Rio Ucayali, the PH has been measured out to 8.0! This Apisto in NOT a blackwater Cichlid species found in hot, acidic water conditions.
The Cockatoo is a true, cool water Cichlid species.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Auballagh said:


> with temps in the warmer months up to the high 70's. During the cooler, rainy season night time lows can dip into the high 60's.


No doubt in the rainy season you might want to wear a jacket. But night time lows in the high 60's at some point of the year does not make it a cold climate. Your picture comes from this link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ucayali_moist_forests
That same link lists the mean temperatures: "Mean temperatures range from 24.7 C (76.5 F) in July to 26.1 C (79 F) in November." This link shows the average minimum and maximum temperatures from a location in the Ucayali:https://weather-and-climate.com/ave...Temperature-Sunshine-fahrenheit,Pucallpa,Peru It's not a cold climate. Water temperature is not going to be that cold when the average highs are 90 F or close to it year round.
The cockatoo cichlid is found over a fairly extensive range, all the way into western Brazil. Other then your claims, I haven't been able to find anything recommending or even suggesting keeping them in colder water. Another example, wiki lists 24-28 C :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apistogramma_cacatuoides


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

No one is saying that the average temperature highs in the Ucayali geographical area of Peru are 90F, or close to it all year around. In my own visit there, the water was barely 70F degrees in that area, with air temps averaging in the low to mid-70's. It's just feels cold and wet all the time. Not a very hot climate. Certainly NOT tropical conditions!
And like I said because of that, this is a 'cool water Cichlid species'. That is why they can safely handle temps down to 60 degrees in the aquarium. Placing your aquarium on a heater at a 'normal' tropical fish range of 76 - 78F degrees or so to keep these little Cichlids, is just too hot.
And finding any fish species washed downstream into an environment they are not very happy in, is a very different prospect from looking in places they naturally originate from.
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Too many people in the aquarium-keeping community believe these (traditional?) things are fine, because, _"That's the way we've always done it". _And sure, we've all seen (and will continue to see) those little Apistos for sale in the LFS tanks kept with everyone else at around 78F degrees or so, because... _"That's the way you do it"_. And yes, I continue to wince every time I see _Gymnogeophagus balzanii _also cooking in those LFS tanks. Yet another, 'Cool Water Cichlid'.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Auballagh said:


> No one is saying that the average temperature highs in the Ucayali geographical area of Peru are 90F, or close to it all year around.


My second link to the climate of Pacupalla, Peru, which is right on the Ucayali river certainly does show that the average highs are 90 F or close to it year round. And bear in mind the Cockatoo cichlid is found in tributaries much farther up the Ucayali river all the way into western Brazil.



Auballagh said:


> the water was barely 70F degrees in that area,


I'm sure, somewhere at some point in time the water does get into the low 70's. Depends on the season. But that is not 60's nor year round. Low 70's at some point in the year is not unusual for most cichlid habitats.



Auballagh said:


> That is why they can safely handle temps down to 60 degrees in the aquarium.


They are hardy. Lot's of cichlids can handle these temps for short periods of time but it's definitely not an ideal temp.


Auballagh said:


> And yes, I continue to wince every time I see _Gymnogeophagus balzanii _also cooking in those LFS tanks.


That's a completely different fish which comes from a completely different area and habitat. No argument there that it comes from a cooler climate. Still somewhat questionable whether it requires a cool down period or really benefits from it. BN pleco and Beunos Aires Tetra also come from a cool, if not cooler climate, yet no one claims they require or even benefit from a cool down period.
Some discussion on temps to keep and breed cockatoo cichlid at Apistogramma.com: :Quick question re: Cacatuoides temperature and Ideal temperature for ideal sex ratio


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Ok guys while I absolutely bow down to the vast knowledge you both have of not only the fish that live in these regions but also the actual place itself, please can you help me. You both have such different views and I really have no idea which way to go.

So this little project of mine was for two reasons, 1: I got myself a baby royal pleco that I fell in love with, obviously I can’t drop him in my 500 litre African hap and peacock tank so I decided to set him up in my spare 100 litre grow out tank, he literally is about 2.5 inches.
And 2: I wanted to have something to watch while he grew to a size that’s ok for a 6 foot tank and though a little group of apistos would be great.

Right now I have my baby royal, 1 male and 2 female cockatoos and a few baby bristoenoses together in this tank with a load of wood to help soften the water. The temp is around 77-78 which from what I have read pretty much everywhere is good for both the cockatoos and the little royal.

Can you tell me if this is a problem? Is it ok? And if there’s anything else I could add as I would like a few more fish that’s like the apistos that would work with these water parameters.

here’s some pics of my guys 😊

thanks you


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Do you guys think it’s possible to home another type is apistos in here as 1 male 2 females? Say a group of Agassiz?


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Chrislisk said:


> The temp is around 77-78 which from what I have read pretty much everywhere is good for both the cockatoos and the little royal.


IMO, it is not an issue in the least bit. As you mention, it's with in the recommended temp range that you will find anywhere for this fish. It has been in the hobby since at least the 1950's. Many, many aquarists have had success keeping this fish at these temperatures, sometimes even at higher temps. As you can see from my last link, when young fry are raised at 21-22 C (70-72 F) you can get odd sex ratios of 5 females to one male which is usually not the desired outcome. Cockatoos are domestically produced. As far as an apisto, it's probably one of the most commonly and easily kept.
And if your still somehow concerned with the temp, drop it down a few degrees. Even low 70's certainly isn't going to hurt your fish, though I don't think there would be any benefit.



Chrislisk said:


> And if there’s anything else I could add as I would like a few more fish that’s like the apistos that would work with these water parameters.


Some type of small schooling fish that are often kept with apistos. Your choice.


Chrislisk said:


> Do you guys think it’s possible to home another type is apistos in here as 1 male 2 females? Say a group of Agassiz?


Might be an option but I don't think it would be a great choice in a tank your size. Non-cichlids probably a better option.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Okay then.... though we disagree and have different keeping methods we would employ in keeping those dwarf Cichlids, BC in SK is right enough with this. I've seen Cockatoo Apistos kept (successfully?) with Discus in water kept at 84F and with acidic PH down to around 6.0! And no, while they may have preferred different environmental conditions in the aquarium, the Cockatoos didn't 'spontaneously explode' or anything when kept like that.
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The Panaque should be fine with those Apistos. This Cichlid species isn't known for taking particular delight in murdering Plecos (they usually ignore them). Keep an eye on things though, and if it looks like the Pleco is being picked at/harrassed, then pull him out for his own safety..
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ALL of those little fish put up in the linked stocking suggestions I provided earlier, would be great choices to go with your Cockatoos.
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Your male Cockatoo will kill another male Apisto in this little tank, the first time he dares to display at a female (even another species) There can be only one!
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You keep saying 1M-2F ratios for these Apistos. It is commonly recommended to have at least 3 females for most Apisto harem groups. For your Cockatoo Apisto, (males of this species are known 'wife beaters') I don't recommend keeping anything less than 4 females with Cockatoo males, to help safely spread out that aggression. A properly kept, healthy male Cockatoo will want to spwan with the females kept in with him - ALL THE TIME!
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The tank looks like it is furnished pretty good. I would get/purchase a few more of those plastic plants, and site them in and around the wood pieces to help break up those sight lines even further.


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Thanks so much for your help guys. Decided I’m going to add another female so I have 3 F and 1 male. I watched him displaying today to one of them already. He is maybe just over an inch, very excited to see him grow, what kind of size do cockatoo cichlids max out at and how king does that take?

I do plan to add live plants like Anubis and Java fern plus some floating plants too.

Can I also ask your opinion on filtration for this tank. researching online it recommends 4-5 times the tank volume for filtration for cockatoo cichlids. I’m about to install a new filter into this tank as I’m currently running two old ones and want one single filter. I have either the Fluval U2 400 litres per hour giving 4 times filtration or the fluval U3 600 litres per hour giving 6 times. 

What would you guys recommend? Slightly more filtration and go with the U3 or towards the bottom end with the U2?

thanks


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Hmmmmm.....
Did I possibly answer this question for you already?



Auballagh said:


> This dwarf species comes from white water areas with a lot of current and significant, natural oxygenation of the water.


Well now, maybe I did! 
So yes, go with the stronger filter and additional current it will provde in the aquarium.


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

You’re a star thank you so much 😊


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

So many questions about these new fish…….,so feeding.

*** been giving them my cichlids pellets that are for my Africans. I have small ones and they are high protein, they eat them absolutely fine but wondered if anything else is better for them. Also how often should I feed them?

thanks


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Little update. Added but more sand, some floating plants and a nice Anubis.


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Lots of space for a little fish!!!! How big will he grow?


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Nice work on the decorations! The tank looks a lot better, and the plants and wood in there will help the females from getting harassed too much by the male.
A healthy, really big male of this dwarf species will probably max out at around 8 to 9cm.. Females will stay a bit smaller at up to 6cm in length.
Cockatoos are not fussy about what they are fed in the aquarium. For the bulk of their diet, they will appreciate the same pellets and flakes offered to your African Haps. Veggie-based Mbuna type stuff should also be offered now and then for variety. Pre-soak and soften pellets in a little bowl or something with tank water before feeding. 
For 'treats' and a bit more variety, brine shrimp, black worms and finally chopped bits of raw, pealed shrimp will be greedily consumed. Mine appreciated the occasional offering of chopped up earthworms as well. Be careful not to over-feed, they can be little gluttons if given the chance. Two smaller feedings twice per day should work great while they are small in size. Once grown out, you can back the feeding down to once per day, with a bit more food offered. 
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And lastly, once you get your 'herd' of non-Cichlid dither fish stocked in there, the tank will look and feel a lot more 'filled out'. The dither fish will help a lot to reassure your Cichlids as well, if they are currently on the shy side. And, may even help to distract your male if he is being overly nippy-chasey with the females in his harem.


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

So I thought I would update you as to where I am with this little tank. So I’ve been looking at Blackwater bio tank set ups as I understand that is where my Apistogramma caucatoides come from and most similar to their natural habitat.

you have helped shape this tank so far so thought you would want to see it progressing. Any advice would be much appreciated. I’ve added different wood and all the plants now are live and real. I’ve gone with easy growers as I have sand substrate. Amazon swords, crypto and Java fern etc. I ha e also added some dried old oak leaves that I found at my local park, boiled them and let them drop in.

I have decided to stay with the trio of cockatoos and will be adding a group of maybe 10 red ember tetra.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Where did this 'Black Water' thing you've now got going on start?


Auballagh said:


> This dwarf species comes from white water areas with a lot of current and significant, natural oxygenation of the water. During the rainy season with mountain runoff feeding the Rio Ucayali, the *PH has been measured out to 8.0!* This Apisto in NOT a blackwater Cichlid species found in hot, acidic water conditions.


Yes, there are some species of Apitogramma that are indeed 'Black Water; types. _Apistogramma caucatoides _is most certainly NOT one of them! (That is one big reason this species is considered such an easy-keeper in the aquarium).
And, this is not a species you shoudl keep as a trio. I will keep reminding you that Apistos in general need a 1M-3F in the aquarium. For the Cockatoo, I don't recommend stocking with anything less than 4 females. With only 2 females in the aquarium, your male may wind up picking, chasing, nipping and just completely HARRASSING both females in with him to actual death! This species will take that male aggression thing with the females in his harem, to African Mbuna levels in an aquarium. Plus, you need to add the additional females to this tank before everyone else get up much bigger in size. Adding a couple more baby-sized females to the mix, won't save a couple of beat up/thrashed females that have been kept in with that guy.


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

So now it’s kept in HOT acidic water. Early in the chat it was a cold water fish. Apistogramma.com says put leaves in which naturally occurs in their habitats which will give that Blackwater tank set up but now your saying don’t mimic their habitats and keep the leaves out due to the tannin effect on the water.

lost.com!!! All I have done is really added some oak leaves and more plants….nothing else. Just looks like a Blackwater tank I thought.
I’ve been given advice on Apistogramma.com to leave just a pair and remove the extra female and your telling me to add a load more.

who’s advice do I follow? Yours….theirs? Or just follow my own gut.
Sorry to sound frustrated but I am sure you can understand where my frustration comes from.


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

I’ll buy two more females for him on Monday that way at least he has a harem and I get more activity and n the tank.


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Strangely then it’s probably not right that I’ve been advised that they love Indian almond leaves? But they lower the Ph? My PH out the tap where I am is 7.5 which is great for my Africans, I can’t imagine a few bits of wood and some old oak leaves will reduce that PH that much to worry about.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

It won't. The problem is - STABILITY. I've found that it's better to keep things at a steady PH in an aquarium, than experiencing up & down spikes every time you do a water change. Don't get fussed over the water PH. It just isn't worth it with this species, and adding all sorts of acidifying chemicals will be super rough on your fish and drive you to madness.. And, unless you are stripping that water of mineral hardness with RO filtration or something first, the water always wins the PH battle anyway.
And ultimately, these choices you're mulling over really are ALL YOURS! Just because you are getting different opinions doesn't mean you won't have some great success doing it your own way. My info about the native environment this Apisto species originated from is helpful, but may not be the priority for everyone else in the tank. The fish you are working with are NOT wild caught, after all. And because of that, will be much more adaptable and forgiving of various environmental conditions to keep in the aquarium.


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Thanks I really appreciate your comments.
I like the oak leaves on the bottom, I think it makes the whole set up look that little more natural. I don’t intend to use them in any attempt to lower the PH of the water at all, purely for aesthetics and the fish seem to enjoy them. 
As for the other fish my plan is some red ember tetra and my Royal pleco. I think all those fish will be fine with the set up. I’ve ordered some vallis plants to give some more coverage in the tank too.

thanks again.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

A fish that is found over an extensive range, doesn't come from a specific pH with out knowing the specific collection point. It's like saying discus should be kept in pH 8 because they can come from that water......while ignoring the fact that vast majority of discus are coming from very acidic water. We don't know the specific collection point of domestic cockatoo, so we don't have the data in terms of the particular water they come from. What we do know is that the domestic strains of cockatoo will usually do well in most tap water. As long as the KH of your water is 5-6 or more, drift wood will do absolutely nothing to the pH of water. If you don't have a way to test KH, it can usually be found by looking up the web site of your local water supply. It should show the amount of carbonates in your water (KH), and if they are high enough (5-6 or 90 ppm+), drift wood is do absolutely nothing in terms of changing your water.


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Will the boiled old dead oak leaves do anything to the PH then? Out of interest.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Chrislisk said:


> Will the boiled old dead oak leaves do anything to the PH then?


No, it will do nothing.
It's decor and shelter for smaller fish. It has much less potential to change water then wood, and wood generally has no affect unless your water is extremely soft and devoid of any mineral.
If your KH (carbonate hardness) is at least moderate (5-6 or 90 ppm+) then your pH will remain very stable.


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

So I’ve added my dither fish today…….after much deliberation I’ve added a group of 12 neon green tetra. They look really good, the green flash they have looks great with everything. I’m thinking I’ll add another 3/4 to make the group a bit bigger. When they shoal together they look amazing, especially in the slightly darker water with low light.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

..... Pics!!


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Ok so here are my update pics so far.

I’m really pleased with how this is starting to look. I’ve taken off the lid and put my fluval aqua sky so I can play with settings and dim the light right down. It does mean it’s open too now but think I prefer the look.

I have got some large Vallis coming and some Amazon sword to plant at the back to make the rear have more cover.

Two more female cockatoos have been added today for the male to have his harem and they all seem to be ok.

I even found eggs on a rock when I did some changing around.

Anything else you think I can do to improve? I have to say I’m loving this natural looking way of doing tanks, it’s such a change from my African hap and peacock tank that’s just rocks.


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Can I also ask if I can add small twigs I find in my local park? I know I should not add just anything but thought I’d ask. I have no idea where the twigs come from.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

It's alive! _ALIVE!!! _And yes, though all aquariums are essentially a great big ol' breathing, living organism. It IS kinda nice when things _VISIBLY_ look green and alive in a tank! And, it definitely helps to inform the whole Planted Aquarium vibe, when you have one of your own.
As for the sticks thing? Uhhh, sure. Have you found some gnarly, kind of twisted interesting looking stuff? And well, it's pretty important to identify the tree or shrub species those twigs came from and confirm you aren't messing around with Hemlock, Oleander, Poison Oak or something.....

First, it's best if you just rinse and scrub 'em out real well first with some non-iodized salt (OxyClean will work good also) and a stiff, nylon scrub brush .
Then next, plunk those things down into some boiling water for a good bit (long enough to heat the entire piece up past 200 degrees or so).
They should work out just fine.


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## fishybuisness (Apr 3, 2020)

Most sticks in the manzanita family would be great for your aquarium, I have had great luck with arbutus or madrona wood. The small branches are perfect for tetras to hide behind. I recommend boiling any sticks, as auballagh said. I have noticed that arbutus would does take a very long time to sink and also produces a very substantial amount of Biofilm.








This is my ongoing attempt at a Rio Orinoco Columbian blackwater aquarium by using wood and materials I find locally. If you are gathering wood for your aquarium, use trees that have very little sap and are not evergreen. Oils from cedar and firs are toxic, and their wood or any wood underneath should always be avoided. Good luck, it looks amazing so far!


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Ok so I really love the idea of adding sticks and leaves to my new tank. So the leaves I have found u believe are either Ash or Rowan….not sure which as they both look similar. I love the look of the leaves and think they would look good if these are ok to add?

mom out looking for twigs tomorrow too.


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

fishybuisness said:


> Most sticks in the manzanita family would be great for your aquarium, I have had great luck with arbutus or madrona wood. The small branches are perfect for tetras to hide behind. I recommend boiling any sticks, as auballagh said. I have noticed that arbutus would does take a very long time to sink and also produces a very substantial amount of Biofilm.
> View attachment 139966
> 
> This is my ongoing attempt at a Rio Orinoco Columbian blackwater aquarium by using wood and materials I find locally. If you are gathering wood for your aquarium, use trees that have very little sap and are not evergreen. Oils from cedar and firs are toxic, and their wood or any wood underneath should always be avoided. Good luck, it looks amazing so far!


Love your tank. I really like the sticks you have used. What size is your tank?


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## fishybuisness (Apr 3, 2020)

I agree, they would look good, however I’m not sure if Rowan or ash are great in aquariums, I have personally never used them.

Thank you, the tank is a 20 gallon long or 75 litres. Currently I only have a pair of apistogramma iniridae in the aquarium, but I am evetually going to add some nannostomus eques and maybe some corydoras septentrionalis. 

good luck finding sticks!


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Ok so little update. I’ve done Aalto to my tank since my last update. New light, redone the wood, added more plants, even an emerging plant, almond leaves and bit more sand. I have to say I’m loving how it’s looking and so are the fish.

added more green neon tetras so have 20 now that look amazing, have 4 females and 1 male cockatoo plus a baby zebra angel (only keeping for a friend while his tank cycles).

all is good in the tank and I’m loving the look.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Wow!
Whew... now that is a seriously BIG transformation.

*From this:*








-
All the artificial plants are definitely gone. Plus, the first one had a top rim of plastic with a light on top. The new one now looks rimless on top. Different tank?


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## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

No same tank I just removed the lid and put a new light on. I wanted the wood to come out the water and thought it looked good.


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