# Anoxic Filtration Process: DIY vs. Sustainability



## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Anoxic filtration.
A very interesting concept that has been quietly lurking around Cichlid-forum since approximately 2019 (from what I have found & seen in old posts, at least). Recently @Rockfella introduced this filtration process to us in this thread, in the Aquarium Setup section of the forum,









Fishless cycling - soooooo close :)


Hi, my new 120G has been cycling for about a month now and it is oh soooo close... It is currently cycling through 2ppm of ammonia in 36 hrs and the resulting nitrites in 48hrs. When the ammonia reaches 0, I wait for the nitrites to drop to 0 as well before adding more ammonia. I can't wait...




www.cichlid-forum.com





So, at the risk of the @dbblackdiamond post getting 'hijacked' by this ramping up discussion regarding Anoxic Filtration, I thought it best to bring the concept here in it's own thread.
(And yes El' Hefe, I fully expect the @SenorStrum experience to inform this post! Your scholarly approach and open-mindedness to these new and potentially beneficial concepts inform you sir.)
So....
Since @Rockfella posted up his remarkable results in implementing a DIY Anoxic Filtration system for his aquarium, I have been doing a 'deep dive' into that process and apparently have more questions than answers!
*Basic info up front* -_ Anoxic filtration is NOT anaerobic filtration. This process is NOT a simple de-Nitrator for your pond or aquarium. Nope, there seems to be quite a bit more going on with this concept than that.._
Some questions as follows,
- 'Non-Clumping' Kitty Litter. It's all about that clay, apparently. There could be some interesting alternatives to non-clumping Kitty Litter out there using fired clay. For instance, why is Japanese Akadama not listed as viable?. Turface soil amendment (fired calcined clay) is another, along with this stuff,





BonsaiBlock, a replacement for Turface – Bonsai Jack ©







www.bonsaijack.com




Non-Clumping Kitty Litter encompasses a pretty big range and variety of products. And some products, as we all suspect... will turn into clay 'goo' if immersend in water for very long.

Pond applications of this process are producing some crazy results, with measured Nitrates being consistently consumed down to less than 10PPM. Phosphates also are being driven down to below 1PPM. Nice! But, how do those numbers translate when scaled down to aquarium-sized applications?
Maintenance. Keeping a Anoxic Filtration system running correctly apparently involves cleaning these things called 'Jap' (?) screens. What the heck are those? High density pre-filters? Then there is the replacement interval for the Non-Clumping Kitty Litter. itself. Does the system 'spontaneously combust or something if that Kitty Litter isn't replaced in a timely manner? Will bad things happen like in Activated Carbon if allowed to remain in the system too long? Then there was some sort of cleaning process I read that recommended using Wet/Dry vacs?!! The required maintenance and sustainability for this system seems to be all over the map. Has anyone standardized any part of this process yet?
The current DIY aspect of this process seems terrifying when confronted by some of the failure tales and testimonials expressed by those attempting to build and use this system. One involved Nitrite levels exploding when some unexpected portion of the Anoxic filtration failed. That could be a VERY serious problem if you invested in over $$$ in Wild Caught fish for your aquarium system.
KH and GH buildup. Inevitably there will less water changes conducted when successfully utilizing a system like this (that could be a VERY GOOD THING in some areas of the world where clean, fresh water is currently getting scarce). But, what happens if water evaporation in the aquarium system causes a steady buildup and increase in PH and water hardness values? Will that potential problem negatively affect the Anoxic filtration system? Is RO or distilled water going to be required as top-off water to replace evaporation in Anoxic aquarium filtration systems?
Dr. Kevin Novack seems to be the guru of Anoxic filtration. Has there been any studies of his work to validate or at least scientifically measure out those results, for possible general use implementation and wide-spread application?
-
This thing seems promising. At least on a DIY level. All too often though, we have been lured down the DIY road of something fantastic, only to discover that the tradeoffs DO NOT add up to equal or exceed the benefits expected! I'd like to learn more about this, sure. But, a healthy amount of skeptiscm can (and usually is) a positive thing.
-
So, let's talk Anoxic Filtration.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Well, don't know much about this process other than following along the other thread. Seems interesting however there are other water parameters that come into play with regular water changes other than just nitrate levels. Hormone levels comes to mind, water buffering capacity, pH, buildup of elements like Ca, Mg etc. due to evaporation. Not sure if anoxic filtration is such a great idea when you consider the side effects that may occur.


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## SenorStrum (Aug 14, 2020)

Alright, Y'all, this looks FUN! Thanks @Auballagh for the thread. It looks like I'm going to have to run back to the other thread, then do a bunch of reading. You may get something out of me in the next few days as these things take time. 

However, I may be able to answer one question: In the researching of the building of my sump if found that the Aussies and folks who make pond filtration tend to use a particulate filtration media called "Japanese Mat Filter." What I also noticed is that because they're Aussies and (I guess...?) it doesn't sound so offensive to their ears, so they refer to it often as "Jap mat." My GUESS is that this is the "jap filter" being referred to here. Think of cheaper, tighter, Matala mat.


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## dbblackdiamond (Sep 30, 2021)

Thank you @Auballagh for creating a new thread on this. My interest was definitely picked by @Rockfella so I spent most of last night doing some research on this process. For anybody interested in reading more, there is a gigantic thread on the SimplyDiscuss forum where folks share their experience: DIY "Anoxic Filtration System" eliminates nitrates? Anyone tried this? . It goes on for 52 pages, so it is quite the read. 

One thing that came clear when reading it is that it is 100% NOT a replacement for doing water changes. As @Aussieman57 mentioned, there are other benefits to doing water changes than just lowering nitrates. Nitrates are sort of the canary in the coal mine, forcing us to do the water changes, but even with anoxic filtration process, water changes will need to happen. The reason why discus folks seem to be interested in this filtration process is that some of them are doing twice a day water changes and this process seems to allow them to move to doing water changes every 4 or 5 days instead.

What I found interesting in this filtration process is the elimination of both the ammonia and the nitrates at the same time using some fairly cheap and "readily" available materials, although simple clay-based cat litter doesn't seem to be so easy to find.  I think this process, especially for fish that are very sensitive to nitrates (hello GBR!!!) could be interesting to try. My issue right now is that there doesn't seem to be a lot of empirical evidence that it truly works and definitely a lack of information on the sizing of the filtration system for a given number of fish/size of aquarium.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

dbblackdiamond said:


> Thank you @Auballagh for creating a new thread on this. My interest was definitely picked by @Rockfella so I spent most of last night doing some research on this process. For anybody interested in reading more, there is a gigantic thread on the SimplyDiscuss forum where folks share their experience: DIY "Anoxic Filtration System" eliminates nitrates? Anyone tried this? . It goes on for 52 pages, so it is quite the read.
> 
> One thing that came clear when reading it is that it is 100% NOT a replacement for doing water changes. As @Aussieman57 mentioned, there are other benefits to doing water changes than just lowering nitrates. Nitrates are sort of the canary in the coal mine, forcing us to do the water changes, but even with anoxic filtration process, water changes will need to happen. The reason why discus folks seem to be interested in this filtration process is that some of them are doing twice a day water changes and this process seems to allow them to move to doing water changes every 4 or 5 days instead.
> 
> What I found interesting in this filtration process is the elimination of both the ammonia and the nitrates at the same time using some fairly cheap and "readily" available materials, although simple clay-based cat litter doesn't seem to be so easy to find.  I think this process, especially for fish that are very sensitive to nitrates (hello GBR!!!) could be interesting to try. My issue right now is that there doesn't seem to be a lot of empirical evidence that it truly works and definitely a lack of information on the sizing of the filtration system for a given number of fish/size of aquarium.


You will notice that thread has multiple opinions. For some it worked for some it did not. Some gave up on it after 1-2 years. The inventor states it is not an exacting science and multiple variables need to be in check for it to be in 100% working. I am no expert and after all the DIY I did my nitrates are still not down because my tap water has 40 ppm and I probably have failed to create anoxic conditions anywhere in my 2 aquariums. Despite this I firmly believe we should have clay somewhere in our tanks or sumps or anywhere possible. Will get into details later. Hobbyists who don't about AFS get very interested in it hoping to avoid water changes and I don't think it should be the biggest reason for anyone to choose AFS over conventional filters. Water changes can be reduced for sure I think.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

These are all good points. The promise of that anoxic filtration process, seems to offer benefits we can all use and enjoy.
Oh... but those details, though!
I mean sure, putting a little bag of non-clumping kitty litter in your hang on back filter may be all you need to exploit the Nitrate reducing effects of that clay. Or, it may be that the little bag offeres such a minuscule level of measured Nitrate reduction, that it just isn't worth it.
I dunno....
The length of TIME that the clay particles are emplaced and used as anoxic median in the system is troubling to me as well. I mean seriously, how long is the clay stuff usable? Until the beneficial bacteria inevitably covers al of the clay particles with a layer of bio-slime? When (like activated carbon) the stuff is just maxed out with all of the Nitrogenous stuff it can take in?
More details....
And lastly, is this something that benefits form a high flow rate (Canister or hang on back filter media). Or, will it work most efficiently as a sort of 'slow and go' process?
-
Still waiting on El' Hefe to come back on this one. I'm sure he needed compressed air for the 'Deep Dive' on this technical sort of thing I'm sure he's doing ..... Standing by!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I like the idea of removing the toxins rather than absorbing them and leaving them.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Of all what I have gathered: A 30cmx30cmx20cm BCB (let's call it clay basket) can handle bioload of a adult Koi! Smaller baskets tend to have lesser anoxic zones. I tried my best to house biggest possible bcbs in my 7" tall overhead SUMP. Folks who have a proper SUMP should easily be able to use 1 or 2 8 lbs bag of Oil-dri and make a big BCB. Adult koi is 24-36" long. Our smaller fishes have a lot less bioload I would think. The doctor himself uses 4x4" and bigger round hand woven bcbs in canister filters.
Now as per the guide : Biocenosis baskets need very little maintenance because the life of the cat litter is indefinite. The inventor states he has used the same clay baskets for 20+ years. Water is made to move as fast as possible AROUND the basket not through it which is what happens in conventional filter system. The BCBs should ideally be in dedicated chamber in SUMP and mechanically filtered water should go around it.

***
Another important feature to understand is that it’s only the ammonia molecules that are drawn into the baskets. Obviously, water floods into them when they are immersed, but after that, water doesn’t actually need to flow through them in order to filter out ammonia. The electrical charges in the centre of the basket only draw in ammonia molecules; they don’t draw in water molecules.

This directly addresses the second possible problem that can happen with some of the static types of conventional filter media – suspended particulates can clog the media and it will then become anaerobic. Critics, who haven’t taken the trouble to understand how the anoxic system works, often wrongly describe it as a “bog filter, full of nasty anaerobic bacteria”. They warn that the baskets are a breeding ground for parasitic bugs that can then spread to your fish. In fact the direct opposite is true.

Biocenosis baskets cannot clog because, if no water flows through them, there is no way that debris can be carried inside. On the other hand, if water flowing through conventional biofilters doesn’t have every speck of debris filtered out of it, there will always be the risk that sludge will settle inside and block the media. So, far from a biocenosis basket being a “bog filter”, it’s more likely that this label could be applied to a conventional system that hasn’t been kept sufficiently clean!

****
Anoxic Filtration (mankysanke.co.uk)

My BCBS look clean, all 3 of them.



Auballagh said:


> I mean sure, putting a little bag of non-clumping kitty litter in your hang on back filter may be all you need to exploit the Nitrate reducing effects of that clay. Or, it may be that the little bag offeres such a minuscule level of measured Nitrate reduction, that it just isn't worth it.
> I dunno....
> The length of TIME that the clay particles are emplaced and used as anoxic median in the system is troubling to me as well. I mean seriously, how long is the clay stuff usable? Until the beneficial bacteria inevitably covers al of the clay particles with a layer of bio-slime? When (like activated carbon) the stuff is just maxed out with all of the Nitrogenous stuff it can take in?
> More details....
> ...


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> I like the idea of removing the toxins rather than absorbing them and leaving them.


Thank you @DJRansome 

A lot more happens inside the basket. The system if done right completes the nitrogen cycle. Nitrogen gas is released in the air. Man it is too detailed for me to type it all here and I don't understand it fully myself. The toxins eventually leave the basket/aquarium


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Auballagh said:


> I mean sure, putting a little bag of non-clumping kitty litter in your hang on back filter may be all you need to exploit the Nitrate reducing effects of that clay. Or, it may be that the little bag offeres such a minuscule level of measured Nitrate reduction, that it just isn't worth it.
> I dunno....
> And lastly, is this something that benefits form a high flow rate (Canister or hang on back filter media). Or, will it work most efficiently as a sort of 'slow and go' process?
> -
> Still waiting on El' Hefe to come back on this one. I'm sure he needed compressed air for the 'Deep Dive' on this technical sort of thing I'm sure he's doing ..... Standing by!


Thank you @Auballagh  
Little baskets won't do much. Making a biggest possible BCB in a canister will be way better. Water should go around the BCB as fast as possible without disturbing the clay. Clay does not degrade like regular biomedia. Does not need replacement. Some felt clay stopped working after 2 years. The high iron/laterite needs to be replenished every few years. Dr. Novak recommends injecting iron in the center of the basket.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Aussieman57 said:


> Well, don't know much about this process other than following along the other thread. Seems interesting however there are other water parameters that come into play with regular water changes other than just nitrate levels. Hormone levels comes to mind, water buffering capacity, pH, buildup of elements like Ca, Mg etc. due to evaporation. Not sure if anoxic filtration is such a great idea when you consider the side effects that may occur.


Clay seems to be the best friend of our beloved fish. They do good more than anything else. Heck we even have edible clay in my country.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Cichlids owners will have a hard time with plenums as the substrate ideally should be 8-10 cm thick ABOVE the plenum for best results but as we know our beauties dig like crazy so I am sewing mesh sheets to make a one piece mesh to be keep on top of the substrate (with some more sub on top to hide it) Will upload pics once done.


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## SenorStrum (Aug 14, 2020)

@Auballagh - I acknowledge my AR (action required) here to close this. In going through what I've been able to find I'm afraid that the brute force application of an open and analytical mind might actually be a bridge too far on this one. There are claims being made that may require experimental testing... and if it works, we may all just declare "IDFK!"
But the claim that one stenosis basket should be used per fish means that this may not be overly useful in the cichlid-keeping arena.
Something tells me that we'll be coming back to this thread for a while.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

SenorStrum said:


> @Auballagh - I acknowledge my AR (action required) here to close this. In going through what I've been able to find I'm afraid that the brute force application of an open and analytical mind might actually be a bridge too far on this one. There are claims being made that may require experimental testing... and if it works, we may all just declare "IDFK!"
> But the claim that one stenosis basket should be used per fish means that this may not be overly useful in the cichlid-keeping arena.
> Something tells me that we'll be coming back to this thread for a while.


Koi pond owners use one BCB for one adult koi in koi ponds. Smaller basket(s) can be used in any fish keeping arena. Either ways why close the thread?


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## SenorStrum (Aug 14, 2020)

Sorry - not close the thread. Close the "Open" - it's a dumb American business jargon. 

I think that the dubious nature of that claim is what folks are calling into question. IF that's actually true, then we may have caught us a unicorn here...


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

SenorStrum said:


> Sorry - not close the thread. Close the "Open" - it's a dumb American business jargon.
> 
> I think that the dubious nature of that claim is what folks are calling into question. IF that's actually true, then we may have caught us a unicorn here...


ohk  I am just sharing my experiences. No claims. I am too inquisitive to do this because my tap water has 40ppm Nitrate. Some say the system never works without plants. Lot of folks got rid of the baskets stating clay stopped working after 2 years. We'll see what happens.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

I have four BCB bags in the sump of my 125. It's getting close to the two month mark now. I'll keep you posted on how it goes.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

A couple thoughts here, and maybe some clarification (To the best of my knowledge) on how this Anoxic Filter works using the Biocenesis Clarification Bag or Basket (AKA BCB). Today is day 58, I've regularly tested Nitrate, TDS and ORP throughout the cycling process, and I'll share all of that with you when I'm sure that everything is fully cycled. I left a bag of purigen in my sump, which I just found out can slow the cycling process, so I'll pull that out today. Also, i left all my normal bio media in the sump for this process just to be safe. I can safely say that I'm seeing some positive results so far.


The anoxic zone is inside the BCB, not the water surrounding it, so high flow is actually preferable inside your filter. Water should flow around the BCB, not through it.
The BCB does not absorb nitrates. Heterotrophic bacteria living inside the BCB consumes the 3 oxygen atoms of NO3 leaving only the nitrogen, which is initially dissolved in the water, but is eventually off gassed (But there's more going on than just that).


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

marten said:


> A couple thoughts here, and maybe some clarification (To the best of my knowledge) on how this Anoxic Filter works using the Biocenesis Clarification Bag or Basket (AKA BCB). Today is day 58, I've regularly tested Nitrate, TDS and ORP throughout the cycling process, and I'll share all of that with you when I'm sure that everything is fully cycled. I left a bag of purigen in my sump, which I just found out can slow the cycling process, so I'll pull that out today. Also, i left all my normal bio media in the sump for this process just to be safe. I can safely say that I'm seeing some positive results so far.
> 
> 
> The anoxic zone is inside the BCB, not the water surrounding it, so high flow is actually preferable inside your filter. Water should flow around the BCB, not through it.
> The BCB does not absorb nitrates. Heterotrophic bacteria living inside the BCB consumes the 3 oxygen atoms of NO3 leaving only the nitrogen, which is initially dissolved in the water, but is eventually off gassed (But there's more going on than just that).


The anoxic zone is in the center of the BCB. Yes the heterotopic facultative bacteria steals oxygen from Nitrates and nitrogen is gassed off completing the nitrogen cycle. You can get rid of the other media. It may slow down the process. Water cannot go through the basket hence the bcb never clogs. Mine has not clogged a bit since 5 months. The inventor Dr. Novak has stated he's used the same BCBS for decades.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Rockfella said:


> You can get rid of the other media. It may slow down the process. Water cannot go through the basket hence the bcb never clogs. Mine has not clogged a bit since 5 months. The inventor Dr. Novak has stated he's used the same BCBS for decades.


I figure there's no harm in leaving the normal media, but the BB colony should decrease over time as the Anoxic system takes over. But yeah i could see how that might slow down cycling the anoxic filter.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

marten said:


> I figure there's no harm in leaving the normal media, but the BB colony should decrease over time as the Anoxic system takes over. But yeah i could see how that might slow down cycling the anoxic filter.


This is how fast clay worked in my case. I keep on posting this as I find it very interesting and unheard.
YMMV depending on how much is used/tank size etc.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

That is impressive. Did you also test for Nitrite?


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

marten said:


> That is impressive. Did you also test for Nitrite?


Nopes. I was so bewildered it just did not strike my mind. After this I moved the cichlids around without fear. In a temp tank, I fill fresh water, bare bottom, no substrate so no old BB and dump all fish in one go... nothing ever spiked. I tested WP for a week .. no spikes... now I am confident I can move them in a new uncycled tank with BCB (always!) all in once and won't see any spikes.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Rockfella said:


> Nopes. I was so bewildered it just did not strike my mind. After this I moved the cichlids around without fear. In a temp tank, I fill fresh water, bare bottom, no substrate so no old BB and dump all fish in one go... nothing ever spiked. I tested WP for a week .. no spikes... now I am confident I can move them in a new uncycled tank with BCB (always!) all in once and won't see any spikes.


Which WP were you testing? Ammonia, Nitrite & Nitrate?


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

marten said:


> Which WP were you testing? Ammonia, Nitrite & Nitrate?


After this 8 to 0 PPM drop I was testing ammonia and nitrite everyday after moving fish without cycling tanks. I imagined if clay can process 8 ppm ammonia to 0 in 48 hours in the first few days of a fishless cycle 15 mbuna bioload can be done in no time/it may not spike any readable ammonia/nitrite and I was right. After this I started moving all fish from main tank to bare sterile/uncycled tanks multiple times and tested for ammonia/nitrite everyday for a week and saw no ammonia/nitrite spikes whatsoever! Then I stopped this boring process of cycling altogether. Later I realized the inventor Dr. Novak also never talks about tank cycling. I have for now concluded cycling is not needed with AFS. If you check my other thread Nitrates went up to 10 ppm after few days post Ammonia getting down to 0 from 8. While I was on it I also found out my tap water has 40/80 ppm Nitrates (diff story) These tests were done when I used Bisleri bottled water (drinking water 20 liter cans) as initially I wanted to use the best water possible. Now I have a bigger tank, bigger SUMP and can't afford to use expensive drinking water regularly.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

I have started going through Dr. Novak's videos and found them rather enlightening. I must admit I was highly skeptical at first. I have a 2.5 gallon rimless tank laying around that I am going to try this method in. What is everyone utilizing as a source for laterite & clay?


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Aussieman57 said:


> I have started going through Dr. Novak's videos and found them rather enlightening. I must admit I was highly skeptical at first. I have a 2.5 gallon rimless tank laying around that I am going to try this method in. What is everyone utilizing as a source for laterite & clay?


Are you in Australia?
Look for Oil-dri/Safe T sorb/clay based industrial oil/spill absorbents. You just need baked/calcined clay with no additives. Rinse it 7/10 times so that it doesn't cloud the water. 
Laterite is for iron.. you can use a plant fert for iron.
Something like this:

JBL PROFLORA Florapol

UGF plates + air bubbler. For a 2.5g tank you might have to mod the plates to fit the tank. Aim for 8-10 cm of substrate ABOVE THE PLENUM/UGF PLATES. You can't do a BCB for that small tank so DSB (deep substrate bed) with plenum is what you can try  This filtration is really good, it seems like a hidden gem or something. I am happy with it so far. No issues.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Rockfella said:


> Are you in Australia?
> Look for Oil-dri/Safe T sorb/clay based industrial oil/spill absorbents. You just need baked/calcined clay with no additives. Rinse it 7/10 times so that it doesn't cloud the water.
> Laterite is for iron.. you can use a plant fert for iron.
> Something like this:
> ...


Located in SW FL. Forum name is based on my dogs breed "Australian Shepherd". Yes, I saw how Dr. Novak did this with a goldfish tank and will try to replicate that. Notice the link does not have any locations in US.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Aussieman57 said:


> Located in SW FL. Forum name is based on my dogs breed "Australian Shepherd". Yes, I saw how Dr. Novak did this with a goldfish tank and will try to replicate that. Notice the link does not have any locations in US.


Yes sir, link was for reference. Oil-dri and Brightwell Aquatics Laterite (F as in fine) smallest pack should do. You're welcome.

Amazon.com : Brightwell Aquatics FlorinBase Laterin Substrat VF - Very Fine Granular High Porosity Clay Base Substrate for Planted and Freshwater Shrimp Aquaria, 700 Grams : Pet Supplies

OOS right now, should be in stock soon lol.

Baked clay another option.

EP Minerals Safety Absorbent, 7941 at Tractor Supply Co.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Rockfella said:


> Great. Oil-dri and Brightwell Aquatics Laterite (F as in fine) smallest pack should do. You're welcome.


Thanks.


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## Colzilla090 (Nov 15, 2021)

*** not finished reading this yet, but would zeolite be a good subsitute? Its a clay used for detoxing heavy metals in the body, *** actually got some of it..hmm.im happy to be a guinea pig. Ill finish reading this and learn how to make one and do some science..ill be back!


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

@Aussieman57 : the stuff pictured below, might be more in line with what is needed for this application,








Very small diameter particle size is about 1/8 to 1/16'th inch, (may have to sift out fine particles)








A 'Fired, Calcined Clay' (whatever that is...). Turface MVP is intended for leveling and drainage purposes on baseball (or soccer) fields. This stuff is used sometimes in potted horticultural applications (inherently safe) Will NOT swell up or dissolve in water. Absorbent - I have also used it as 'kitty litter', for oil spills etc.... (works great).
NOTE: A much larger particle size of this same stuff is made and sold as 'Bonsai Block', by a guy in Florida with an online business called 'Bonsai Jack'.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

@Auballagh Yes sir. All we need is baked/calcined/fired natural clay without any additives. Kitty litter/oil-dri/sate T sorb/turface are more or less the same. Different names/different brands/different intended applications but same thing: Different types of baked clay that won't loose it's hardness in water. LECA has worked for few but is not recommended because of bigger size.

+ a plant fertilizer (laterite/ironite) that should release iron in the center of the BCB (Clay basket) or added to the substrate. Lot of iron is great to kickstart bacteria population.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Colzilla090 said:


> ** not finished reading this yet, but would zeolite be a good subsitute? Its a clay used for detoxing heavy metals in the body, ** actually got some of it..hmm.im happy to be a guinea pig. Ill finish reading this and learn how to make one and do some science..ill be back!


Guppies Stories - YouTube

Ask him anything about Zeolite. He uses it. Bear in mind (I might be wrong) Zeolite becomes inert after 3-5 years so you may have to get new/recharge it (IDK what this means/how it is done)

Some have reported clay becoming inert/stops working after 2 years. Dr. Novak has used same BSB for decades. IDK the reality. I am okay spending on clay every 2 years (If I have to) 'coz I am super happy with this system.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Rockfella said:


> @Auballagh Yes sir. All we need is baked/calcined/fired natural clay without any additives. Kitty litter/oil-dri/sate T sorb/turface are more or less the same. Different names/different brands/different intended applications but same thing: Different types of baked clay that won't loose it's hardness in water. LECA has worked for few but is not recommended because of bigger size.
> 
> + a plant fertilizer (laterite/ironite) that should release iron in the center of the BCB (Clay basket) or added to the substrate. Lot of iron is great to kickstart bacteria population.


I don't think it actually needs to be baked. The only ingredient should be "ground clay". And an Iron source to add to it.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Hmmmmm... the problem with not firing or 'baking' the clay, is that it will tend to dissolve when immersed in water (ex: Naturally found, volcanic origin Japanese Akadama).
Just about all clay-based products sold as 'kitty litter' or 'Oil-Dri' have been fired in some fashion to help stabilize the particles when exposed to water.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Auballagh said:


> Hmmmmm... the problem with not firing or 'baking' the clay, is that it will tend to dissolve when immersed in water (ex: Naturally found, volcanic origin Japanese Akadama).
> Just about all clay-based products sold as 'kitty litter' or 'Oil-Dri' have been fired in some fashion to help stabilize the particles when exposed to water.


Exactly!! A lot of kitty litter is not baked these day as baking/firing clay means more money needs to spent by the manufacturer. So these days "clumping litter" seems to be more abundant. It is cheaper for the manufacture as well and more $$$ for them. Folks in the US who it available for $7/8 (Turface link you posted @Auballagh) for 40 lbs can make a big BCB for a canister filter/SUMP and forget about a lot of problems we face as fish keepers. Can you used as thick substrate/plenum system (won't work good for cichlids/diggers as they'll dig it) will work great for a community tank/non-digging fish. It just needs to be rinsed nicely. Maybe 10 times my guess. Even if not rinsed water should clear up within 24-48 hour with a good canister filter. I got 4 bags (32 lbs) for $112 delivered to India lol. I tried two brands here, turned into mud instantly. Had no choice!


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Auballagh said:


> Hmmmmm... the problem with not firing or 'baking' the clay, is that it will tend to dissolve when immersed in water (ex: Naturally found, volcanic origin Japanese Akadama).
> Just about all clay-based products sold as 'kitty litter' or 'Oil-Dri' have been fired in some fashion to help stabilize the particles when exposed to water.


Oh i see, yeah i don't know if the stuff i used was baked or not, but i guess then that it probably was. I rinsed it really well to get the fines out and i haven't seen it dissolve at all.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

marten said:


> Oh i see, yeah i don't know if the stuff i used was baked or not, but i guess then that it probably was. I rinsed it really well to get the fines out and i haven't seen it dissolve at all.


Great. Did you get Oil-dri? It was baked 100%


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Rockfella said:


> Great. Did you get Oil-dri? It was baked 100%


For the clay I used a cat litter called "Classic Clay" (non clumping, fragrance free). The only ingredient listed is Ground Clay.
For the Iron, I used Seachem Flourite red color version. 

I mixed 3:1 Clay to Flourite, and then filled up 4 mesh filter bags with it. I put them in the sump and that's it.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

marten said:


> For the clay I used a cat litter called "Classic Clay" (non clumping, fragrance free). The only ingredient listed is Ground Clay.
> For the Iron, I used Seachem Flourite red color version.
> I mixed 3:1 Clay to Flourite, and then filled up 4 mesh filter bags with it. I put them in the sump and that's it.


Perfect.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

More buying links:

Clay:
OIL-DRI Loose Absorbent, Universal, Montmorillonite Clay, 8 lb - 24X070|I01008-G78 - Grainger 

OIL-DRI Loose Absorbent, Universal, Montmorillonite Clay, 25 lb - 24X071|I05025-G70 - Grainger 

Laterite:
Brightwell Aquatics - FlorinBase Laterite Powder 

Mesh bags:
Amazon.com : Small Aquarium Mesh Media Filter Bags - High Flow 4 Pack - 3" by 8" with Drawstrings for Activated Carbon - Reusable Fish Tank Charcoal Filter - Aquatic Bags for Fresh or Saltwater Tanks : Pet Supplies


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

RockFella,
I had a look at your videos. Do you know what your Nitrates normally are with that set up? Do you mind sharing that? It looks like a good size basket. 

So far 4 bags 7x4x4 inches is consuming about 5ppm Nitrates per week, for 125G + Sump. So my Nitrates are 5ppm lower then normal before I do my weekly water change. 

Most of the example tanks that use Anoxic filters are planted, so I think our tanks will be a good test case for this. 

After 2 months my ORP (Redox) went from 270 to 315, and TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) seems to agree with my nitrate tests. TDS is not increasing any more than the Nitrate. I was checking that because I wanted to be sure that the nitrate was actually being removed as N2 gas and not just being converted into something else that stayed in the tank. 


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

marten said:


> RockFella,
> I had a look at your videos. Do you know what your Nitrates normally are with that set up? Do you mind sharing that? It looks like a good size basket.
> 
> So far 4 bags 7x4x4 inches is consuming about 5ppm Nitrates per week, for 125G + Sump. So my Nitrates are 5ppm lower then normal before I do my weekly water change.
> ...


Thanks for checking out my videos. My situation is very different.
1) I have 40/80 ppm Nitrates in my tap water! Another problem is I really can't see the difference between 40-80 ppm on API test kit so when I do WC I don't know if I am getting rid of 80 ppm to come down to 60 or what.
2) The BCBs you saw in the video were set up in early sep with Oil-dri and something I thought was laterite but it was not. Now I have a bigger BCB which was set up with this :
JBL PROFLORA Florapol as iron source on Feb 2nd 2022.

I saw no reduction in nitrates since Sep 2021 in both aquariums : IDK why, I am assuming it could be because the BCBs were never set properly. However all fish in both tanks are doing fine, none of them look sick or stressed (Few smaller cichlids do feel a bit of stress as they are lowest in the hierarchy). All of them are active and eat well.

Just 10 mins ago I saw 6 babies (I have platys) in my small tank (the BCB in that one is still without iron source/not set right.

New BCB bigger than before and with proper iron source in the center was set on feb 2nd so my countdown started that day. I am not hoping nitrates to be zero but anything in the orangish range (API test Kit) will make me happy as the whole filtration system has to deal with tank + tap water nitrates: This is my understanding as of now. I am very happy that my fish are doing good but not happy with 40/80 ppm constant nitrates.

PFA pics.

I don't think you should worry about how your nitrates are getting reduced. IDK if there is a way to find out how anyway. Increase in redox is good. One guy had good success when he got rid of the baskets and made BCMB (biocenosis clarification mesh bags lol) Baskets did not do anything for 4 months, the mesh bags worked faster and his discus have been spawning now for first time after 10 years! Dr. Novak stated he is testing mesh bags currently.

EDIT: Now I can't see any babies now clue why. Either the big ones ate them or they are hiding.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Thanks for sharing all that. Keep us posted on how it goes!


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Dr Novak did a video on my Anoxic Filtration Experiment.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

@marten Stunning aquarium. Will watch Doc's vid later..


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Both BCBs were reset on march 5th 2022 again.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

@marten Consider making a plenum? You can keep a mesh on 2" sand so the fish don't dig and cap it with more substrate you use. Simple. 
Your set up is working for you. I have around 20 mbunas in a 70g (not the typical 70g) with 40ppm nitrates in tap water. Let's see what happens in 3 months


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Rockfella said:


> @marten Consider making a plenum? You can keep a mesh on 2" sand so the fish don't dig and cap it with more substrate you use. Simple.
> Your set up is working for you. I have around 20 mbunas in a 70g (not the typical 70g) with 40ppm nitrates in tap water. Let's see what happens in 3 months



I clean my substrate every few days by siphoning into the Sock section of the sump. I also regularly clean the socks, so I think I'm only missing the larger anoxic zone created by a plenum, and the sand is not very deep. I will never do less than 25% weekly water changes anyways, and i just doubled the volume of my BCBs last week.

I set up a plenum in my son's 10G to see how that goes. I guess i really just want to see it all for myself first, so I'm testing everything out.

What i didn't expect to see was how TDS went down between water changes after the BCBs matured. The BCBs consume Ions, but not only Ammonia / Nitrite / Nitrate. I really don't know what is coming out of my water between water changes, but PH is actually more stable than it was before, so i don't think it's negatively affecting my KH.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

marten said:


> I clean my substrate every few days by siphoning into the Sock section of the sump. I also regularly clean the socks, so I think I'm only missing the larger anoxic zone created by a plenum, and the sand is not very deep. I will never do less than 25% weekly water changes anyways, and i just doubled the volume of my BCBs last week.
> 
> I set up a plenum in my son's 10G to see how that goes. I guess i really just want to see it all for myself first, so I'm testing everything out.
> 
> What i didn't expect to see was how TDS went down between water changes after the BCBs matured. The BCBs consume Ions, but not only Ammonia / Nitrite / Nitrate. I really don't know what is coming out of my water between water changes, but PH is actually more stable than it was before, so i don't think it's negatively affecting my KH.


Clay reduced PH for sure. Doubled the volume of BCB as in added more bags? If possible make water turnover faster... faster the better.


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## SenorStrum (Aug 14, 2020)

I'm happy to come back and see that there is a lot going on in this thread! My friends, thank you for posting, and sharing your experience with this type of nitrate management in the aquarium!

Coming back and reading through, I'm not very surprised that this isn't functioning very well in the absence of plants. I struggled with what/how much to say to this question when originally posed. Here it is in a nut shell - I don't believe that "Anoxic" or "Anaerobic" removal of nitrates is really feasible cheaply in a home aquarium. 

I'm happy to discuss further, but I don't have a lot to say that can even be politely framed for this conversation. I think that Biocenosis baskets are bunk. I don't see any claims made which detail the underlying scientific substance of what's going on. All of Dr. Novak's tanks have plants in them. I'm not surprised we've not seen nitrate removal in our own tanks as it's almost impossible.

I'll cite one piece of evidence: The profit motive. The release of nitrate and phosphate into the water cycle from sewage treatment plants is environmentally devastating. If it were possible to do this with laterite and flourite (Both very cheap) every municipal water plant in the world would by more land and build a BCB effluent discharge to remove nitrates before they go into the rivers and kill the oceans (interestingly by removing oxygen from the water column). Nitrate removal systems are very expensive, require massive amounts of maintenance, and the injection of a carbon source into the reaction chamber. The chemistry won't work without these things. 

I just flat don't see a lot of scientific claims going on in the article cited. There is what i would define as pseudo-science. Explanations that the bacterial eat one atom of this or release one molecule of that, but they don't say what kind of bacteria, they site no studies at all. They don't scientifically test for variables (All the tanks have plants in them. We know plants remove nitrates, therefore any data from a tank with plants in it are scientifically useless, and please don't even get me started on statistically significant sample sizes.) 

The statement that the basket is "ionic" is... something. Perhaps it was, for about 15 seconds, but then in a closed system, it found a balance... 

To that end - I hope this works. I hope you both see reductions in nitrates. I am simply scientifically unconvinced. Please keep us posted for the results. I honestly do look forward to reading more from you


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Rockfella said:


> Clay reduced PH for sure. Doubled the volume of BCB as in added more bags? If possible make water turnover faster... faster the better.


I added one large bag that doubles the volume of the BCBs I have in the sump. Plenty of water movement in the sump too. PH is stable. 


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

@SenorStrum 

The reduction of TDS I’m now seeing between water changes definitely suggests that Ions are being removed. I think that, because TDS normally increases between water changes from buildup of Nitrates and other pollutants. 

I’m cautiously optimistic about Anoxic Filtration. 


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Any update on your progress? @Rockfella 

My Nitrates have been absolutely zero since May 5th (measured before weekly water changes). It seems to take a while for the media to mature, but when it does it's really something.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

My Nitrates have been absolutely zero since May 5th (measured before weekly water changes). It seems to take a while for the media to mature, but when it does it's really something.
[/QUOTE]
Glad it worked for you! You should also notice less illnesses overall. Clay seems to a very underrated thing in this hobby.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

I converted my 135 to anoxic filtration a few months ago. I made BCB baskets that were WAY too big (used milk crates). It tanked my pH. But after that stabilized on its own, oh my god. I guess because my BCBs were so large they soaked up every bit of ammonia as they cycled, but I literally never saw a reading for ammonia, nitrite or nitrate since converting. I think they're fully cycled now and just doing their thing. I'm beyond impressed.
I recently converted my other 3 tanks (75, 55, and 20 gallons) as well and with fish in them have had the same results (without the massive pH crash, it still came down but I used reasonably sized baskets on them and it's much better). All 4 tanks now have plenums (I added one to the 135 when I set up the other tanks, it's the only one without clay in the plenum though). The 55 and 75 have overhead sumps I built out of planters (years ago, just converted the media) that run small brick sized BCB's (1 for the 55, 2 for the 75). The 20 just has a plenum. All the canisters and HOB's got converted to just mechanical and chemical (I use homemade chemipure because I don't trust the city water). Again, I haven't had a reading for anything nitrogen related since they were set up and it's only been a few weeks, so the BCBs and plenums aren't fully cycled yet on the smaller tanks. I'm doing water changes some, but mostly because I feel guilty not doing them. The tanks, fish, plants and test readings are showing no signs they're needed. No spikes, no bacteria bloom, water is crystal clear (except my 75 where I used cheap sand that seems to have had more dust than sand in it). I genuinely am having trouble accepting these results and just keep waiting for something to go wrong, haha. 
Has anyone run into long term problems I should be aware of? It was scary ripping out all that old biomedia that was working as intended, but now I just wish I had found this years ago. It genuinely feels like a cheat code for fishkeeping.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> I converted my 135 to anoxic filtration a few months ago. I made BCB baskets that were WAY too big (used milk crates). It tanked my pH. But after that stabilized on its own, oh my god. I guess because my BCBs were so large they soaked up every bit of ammonia as they cycled, but I literally never saw a reading for ammonia, nitrite or nitrate since converting. I think they're fully cycled now and just doing their thing. I'm beyond impressed.
> I recently converted my other 3 tanks (75, 55, and 20 gallons) as well and with fish in them have had the same results (without the massive pH crash, it still came down but I used reasonably sized baskets on them and it's much better). All 4 tanks now have plenums (I added one to the 135 when I set up the other tanks, it's the only one without clay in the plenum though). The 55 and 75 have overhead sumps I built out of planters (years ago, just converted the media) that run small brick sized BCB's (1 for the 55, 2 for the 75). The 20 just has a plenum. All the canisters and HOB's got converted to just mechanical and chemical (I use homemade chemipure because I don't trust the city water). Again, I haven't had a reading for anything nitrogen related since they were set up and it's only been a few weeks, so the BCBs and plenums aren't fully cycled yet on the smaller tanks. I'm doing water changes some, but mostly because I feel guilty not doing them. The tanks, fish, plants and test readings are showing no signs they're needed. No spikes, no bacteria bloom, water is crystal clear (except my 75 where I used cheap sand that seems to have had more dust than sand in it). I genuinely am having trouble accepting these results and just keep waiting for something to go wrong, haha.
> Has anyone run into long term problems I should be aware of? It was scary ripping out all that old biomedia that was working as intended, but now I just wish I had found this years ago. It genuinely feels like a cheat code for fishkeeping.


I'm not surprised. Another thing is one doesn't need to cycle tanks with this method. I feel lucky to jump straight into this filtration method after getting into this hobby after 20 years.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

I may need to figure out how to build a small basket to add to my 55 gallon sump.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

And so it begins?
Who knows? With enough people trying and playing around with this concept... we may have just found that aquarium keeping 'unicorn' @SenorStrum was talking about!
There are two sources of Calcined Clay in the U.S. that seem to have the most promise for use in Anoxic Filtration.

Turface Athletics, MVP. I would sift out the fine particles to enhance water flow rate through the media.
'Monto Clay' by Bonsai Jack Monto Clay – Bonsai Jack ©
(Both products are manufactured by Turface Athletics)
-
And yes, I'm hoping this concept pans out successfully. Be nice to know about how large to size the baskets in relation to the size of the aquarium volume being serviced. And, basket configuration could be important as well. Hmmmm.... the easiest method to implement this thing, might be to just pack out a canister filter completely full of that Calcined Clay?
The all or nothing approach?!!


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Rockfella said:


> I'm not surprised. Another thing is one doesn't need to cycle tanks with this method.


Technically, they had a jump start since none of them were being set up from scratch, but I have to have killed most of the old bacteria taking everything out to put in plenums. Especially since a lot of stuff got its first deep clean in a decade and not in tank water. But I was fully prepared to be doing water changes daily for at least a few weeks. Nothing. Water was cleaner 24 hours in than it had ever been 24 hours after a large water change. I was thinking I'd scale back feeding for a bit, instead I'm feeding more because the fish are super energetic. It's genuinely been going better than advertised. 


Aussieman57 said:


> I may need to figure out how to build a small basket to add to my 55 gallon sump.


Planter baskets with a ton of small holes in them work well and are cheap. Mine were made from either 'pencil baskets' (11.5"x5"x3.5") and plastic mesh to keep the clay in or milk crates (12"x12"x10", I only use 6" instead of the full 10" of height and it's still WAY more than needed) with the same plastic mesh fitted to the inner walls. Extra holes were drilled in the pencil baskets and milk crates to let more water flow by. 
Just FYI, if you're just adding a basket to your existing filtration, you won't see much effect. The regular filter media will still produce a lot of nitrates and the baskets work primarily by pulling in ammonium directly. The drop you will see will be the ammonium the baskets get before your regular filter media gets to it. To get the full effect you have to go all in.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Auballagh said:


> And so it begins?
> Who knows? With enough people trying and playing around with this concept... we may have just found that aquarium keeping 'unicorn' @SenorStrum was talking about!
> There are two sources of Calcined Clay in the U.S. that seem to have the most promise for use in Anoxic Filtration.
> 
> ...


Just remember, the BCBs in your sump or canister are intended to have water channel around them, not through them. If you use the clay in the plenum, it will be drawn through, but plenums work a little differently. 
I use plastic planters for my overhead sumps on my 75 (3 foot sump) and 55 (2 foot sump), they are 8" wide at the top and 5" at the base. The baskets I use are just under a foot long and 5" wide. They're raised a little to let water flow under them so they are a nice fit in the planters. The water channels all around them, but none passes by more than an inch or 2 from the baskets so they can pull in the ammonium. I used milk crates in my large sump because they took up a similar percentage of the space, forcing the water to pass close to them, but not through them. I'm 100% certain I didn't need to use this much clay, but once the pH stabilized, I think more is better, like regular media. 
Baskets made out of the planter baskets that are 10"x10" at the top can supposedly support a full grown 25+" koi, which obviously are among the messiest fish ever. Dr. Novak and others using it usually size and number the baskets based on stock more so than gallons in the tank. I keep cichlids, so I went with overkill. 
Oh, for clay I went to autozone and bought the stuff for cleaning up oil spills. Baked clay, just like the old fashioned kitty litter no one makes anymore. $13/33 lbs.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> Just remember, the BCBs in your sump or canister are intended to have water channel around them, not through them. If you use the clay in the plenum, it will be drawn through, but plenums work a little differently.
> I use plastic planters for my overhead sumps on my 75 (3 foot sump) and 55 (2 foot sump), they are 8" wide at the top and 5" at the base. The baskets I use are just under a foot long and 5" wide. They're raised a little to let water flow under them so they are a nice fit in the planters. The water channels all around them, but none passes by more than an inch or 2 from the baskets so they can pull in the ammonium. I used milk crates in my large sump because they took up a similar percentage of the space, forcing the water to pass close to them, but not through them. I'm 100% certain I didn't need to use this much clay, but once the pH stabilized, I think more is better, like regular media.
> Baskets made out of the planter baskets that are 10"x10" at the top can supposedly support a full grown 25+" koi, which obviously are among the messiest fish ever. Dr. Novak and others using it usually size and number the baskets based on stock more so than gallons in the tank. I keep cichlids, so I went with overkill.
> Oh, for clay I went to autozone and bought the stuff for cleaning up oil spills. Baked clay, just like the old fashioned kitty litter no one makes anymore. $13/33 lbs.


When I set up the BCBS I went with the same logic. More the better. My bcb is sufficient for one adult koi. More clay is better. Noone believes me when I say I don't cycle tanks anymore. Just one good enough size bcb is good to simply dump fish in new tank ... Nothing spikes.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Okay then....
Let's work through some technical details for your Anoxic build recommendations.

Water flows 'around', NOT through? (That kills the canister filter idea.....).
The clay-filled baskets are suspended, or just placed, down into a sump? Flow travels from one end of the sump to the other?
The calcined clay (media) is rinsed first (to clean dust and small particles out) and is kept fully wet throughout at least, correct?
Baskets must be porous to permit the water to flow around (and through outer layer of calcined clay media). It's possible that pond baskets might be ideal for this application,









The squarish type looks especially promising, if meant for placement down into a rectangular shaped sump.
-_* 'ALL IN'..... *_Okay, that seems to be a bit of a daunting prospect! A useful compromise on that premise may be to utilize a 'fishless cycle' process, using Ammonia to dose the Anoxic-based aquarium system with first (simulating a FULL TANK BIO-LOAD). Continual testing is done to measure Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate levels in the water of the new (fishless) Anoxic-based aquarium. 'Success' of the Anoxiic filtration process in this case would be informed by ZERO Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate test readings for the aquarium system. 

Anything I've missed? 
-
NOTE: The Anoxic based filtration process may 'only' be useful for providing filtration to replace traditional 'biological' type filter processes. The big 'draw' to this system, is the complete Nitrogen cycle it potentially offers, in removal of those pesky Nitrates. The inevitable buildup of Phosphates and potential harmful bacteria to the tank (caused by fish waste or uneaten food) would still have to be removed by either water changes or live, aquatic plants.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Auballagh said:


> Okay then....
> Let's work through some technical details for your Anoxic build recommendations.
> 
> Water flows 'around', NOT through? (That kills the canister filter idea.....). on it.
> ...


No. Round BCBs and be made with craft mesh for cylindrical canisters. Dr. Novak has a video. This involves more work as the basket needs to be sewed by hobbyist.
Yes. Baskets are set in a way that water flows around it including the bottom. Once can use something to suspend it. Spacers.
One can rinse the clay it but it is not critical. Water clears itself fast. I cleaned clay though. 5/10 times water rinsing.
Fishless cycle or any cycle is not needed. I know you won't believe me.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Auballagh said:


> And so it begins?
> Who knows? With enough people trying and playing around with this concept... we may have just found that aquarium keeping 'unicorn' @SenorStrum was talking about!
> There are two sources of Calcined Clay in the U.S. that seem to have the most promise for use in Anoxic Filtration.
> 
> ...


Yes bigger baskets have better results. A 30cmx30cmx20cm basket is good foe one adult koi! Hobbyists should go with the biggest BCB they can fit it and fastest possible water flow around it.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Hah! 


Rockfella said:


> Fishless cycle or any cycle is not needed. I know you won't believe me.


My good man, let's not pee on each other's legs and disclaim, 'It's Raining!' 
Or, as they say.... _'TRUST - BUT VERIFY'_.
And no, this will NOT be a 'Fish Less Cycle' for the newly installed Anoxic Filtration System.
Nope.
This will be a full blown, Ammonia-dosed and driven - *TEST* - of this new concept. Something done in 'Due Diligence' before ultimately committing what may be some very valuable fish to the care & keeping of this (still unproven) filtration process. That is... good technical science, right?


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Auballagh said:


> Okay then....
> Let's work through some technical details for your Anoxic build recommendations.
> 
> Water flows 'around', NOT through? (That kills the canister filter idea.....).
> ...


You can use them in a canister. For a canister you load up a fine mesh filter bag with kitty litter and some iron source, you just put it in the canister loose. If you have trays in your canister, you just put in a bag where the water has space to channel around the bag in the compartment, i.e., make the bag to fill about half the space in the tray/compartment. If you use an 'empty' canister like an old eheim, you just load the bag with empty space around it (you can also make a cylindrical mesh basket, but a bag is easier). Dr. Novak has videos on using BCBs in canisters.
Those planter baskets would work well for use in the sump.
Yeah, it was scary taking out functioning biomedia, but my fish were in the tank and barely noticed. The clay will absorb the ammonium in the tank regardless if the bacteria has cycled yet, so you can dose, but you're just gonna see no ammonia in the tank 24 hours after dosing. My 3 smaller tanks have only been converted a couple weeks, so I'm sure the BCBs and plenums aren't fully cycled yet, but they still aren't showing any reading for ammonia, nitrite or nitrate with their full stock in the tanks (I'm testing every day in case the BCBs get overloaded before the bacteria can propagate, but haven't seen any issues yet on any of the tanks).
If you're still nervous to try since we all just started (completely understandable, I'm still nervous every morning waiting for something to go wrong), I'll be happy to keep updating the thread for a while. My 135 has been functioning perfectly for a few months, but my other 3 tanks the experiment just started.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Auballagh said:


> Hah!
> 
> My good man, let's not pee on each other's legs and disclaim, 'It's Raining!'
> Or, as they say.... _'TRUST - BUT VERIFY'_.
> ...


Okay  A test with ammonia will be perfect. Fishless cycle, if you use big enough BCB you may see 8ppm ammonia reduction to 0 in 48 hours. PFA pics of ammonia reduction with around 50g water and 8 lbs of Oil-dri in 2 baskets. This blew me away really.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Rockfella said:


> Okay  A test with ammonia will be perfect. Fishless cycle, if you use big enough BCB you may see 8ppm ammonia reduction to 0 in 48 hours.


What effect does the BCB have on the pH & hardness of the tank water?


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Aussieman57 said:


> What effect does the BCB have on the pH & hardness of the tank water?


Clay/bcb reduces PH, no idea about hardness.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Excellent!
I am personally looking to establish some things with this upcoming test. As follows,
1) Does the Anoxic Filtration process.... work? That is, will a (completely empty) aquarium with absolutely Zero Biologcal media (or aquatic plants) supporting it, convert a measured dose of Ammonia over to a zero PPM level of measured Ammonia, Nitrite AND Nitrate - using Anoxic Filtration? . That is, a Full Nitrogen Conversion process?
2) IF the Anoxic process demonstrates a successful, Full Nitrogen Conversion process? Then it will be time to scale it up. That is.... HOW MUCH Calcined Clay media is required to successfully process various (precisely measured) amounts of dosed Ammonia?
3) Plus, as @Aussieman57 so capably pointed out - what PH and general water hardness effects can be expected for the aquarium when using Anoxic Filtration (sole source) for it?
4) Does the natural PH and water hardness chemistry values (Tap Water source) affect the Anoxic Filtration process? If so, what exactly ARE those effects?
5) And lastly... IF the process works? Check for efficiencies in using different Calcined Clay media types. Size and origin? For example, could there be a difference in naturally (volcanic) produced Calcined Clay as in the Japanese Akadama soil type vs.fired/manufactured Calcine Clay (Kitty Litter or Turface MVP/Monto Clay)? Does the Particle Size of the Calcined Clay media matter? Measure greater or lesser efficiencies of these effects on the process, etc....
-
So, it's coming. And of course, I'll document this testing process here on C-F with both text and photos.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Rockfella said:


> Clay/bcb reduces PH, no idea about hardness.


I have not seen any reduction to PH at all with Anoxic Filtration. I suppose it's possible if the BCB draws in enough ions, so it might depend on water chemistry.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Auballagh said:


> This will be a full blown, Ammonia-dosed and driven - *TEST* - of this new concept. Something done in 'Due Diligence' before ultimately committing what may be some very valuable fish to the care & keeping of this (still unproven) filtration process. That is... good technical science, right?


Fantastic! Lately i was thinking of asking if a few more of us would try this. I'm happy to help in any way i can.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

neverenoughtanks said:


> Just FYI, if you're just adding a basket to your existing filtration, you won't see much effect. The regular filter media will still produce a lot of nitrates and the baskets work primarily by pulling in ammonium directly. The drop you will see will be the ammonium the baskets get before your regular filter media gets to it. To get the full effect you have to go all in.


I did that to gradually switch my tank over, and yes when i took the last step to remove all aerobic media, that was when Nitrates eventually dropped to zero. However after 10 weeks with all my aerobic media + anoxic media i was only producing about half the nitrates i would have without the anoxic media.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

A guide by Syd Mitchell recommends going ALL in with Anoxic. Other type of media slows this system. That's what i did.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Rockefella: How has this system affected the amount & frequency of your water changes?


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Aussieman57 said:


> Rockefella: How has this system affected the amount & frequency of your water changes?


Well.. I feel lucky to stumble upon this system last year and I got back into this hobby after 20 years so I can't tell you what difference it made as I never really used "other" media in my main tanks. I do 30/ 50% water change weekly anyway but the water is never cloudy, I just do it anyway. I can tell you many hobbyists have reduced water changes for sure. I have been following Dr. Novak's system in many forums and his own channel. Less frequent water changes seems to be a common + of this system along with other pros.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Will be trying this at some point.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

There is lots of information our there from Dr. Novak, mostly in the form of successful examples, but i find it lacks a scientific approach to the evidence. Even so, after watching many of his videos, and eventually contacting him by email, i find his examples are convincing. Syd Mitchell's guide is very good, but it's mainly about ponds, and it would be great to have something similar for aquarium hobbyists to follow. 

Syd Michell's guide -> Building an anoxic system


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

marten said:


> There is lots of information our there from Dr. Novak, mostly in the form of successful examples, but i find it lacks a scientific approach to the evidence. Even so, after watching many of his videos, and eventually contacting him by email, i find his examples are convincing. Syd Mitchell's guide is very good, but it's mainly about ponds, and it would be great to have something similar for aquarium hobbyists to follow.
> 
> Syd Michell's guide -> Building an anoxic system


I used the same guide to replicate this system in all 3 aquariums I have. Very helpful.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

So a week+ later and no change in results. Haven't done a water change since last post, just top offs and cleaned/changed mechanical in a couple filters. Again, I doubt my smaller tanks have fully cycled yet (in fact Dr. Novak suggests this can take several months in some situations, though 2-3 seems most common), but the plenums and BCBs capture enough ammonia that I'm still not seeing nitrates (or nitrites or ammonia). I decided to add some plants over the weekend, so now have pothos and peace lillies growing out of the 3 largest tanks. They haven't adjusted their roots yet, but they seem to have transitioned out of the pot fine because new growth is showing. I've grown them out of my tanks at various times in the past. They always helped with nitrates a little (especially once they really get going) but not like the clay has so far. I'm assuming this won't starve out the plants as they have the opportunity to pull ammonia out of the water column, but we'll see. I mostly would like them to provide a root ceiling in the tank for shade and more hiding spots. 
Also, my pH has pretty much completely stabilized around neutral after tanking below 6 when I added my very large BCBs to the 135 gallon's sump. I believe those BCBs have cycled enough that they are in fact converting nitrates and ammonia to nitrogen gas. They have been running for 4+ months now and I doubt they'd still be absorbing ammonia if it weren't being converted, but they are very large, so who knows. I'll keep updating. 
I expect in my 20, 55 and 75 I will see some nitrates before everything fully cycles since the BCBs aren't nearly as large (and the 20 only has the plenum for biological). Traditional BB is still propagating all over the tanks (or it should be), so I'd be surprised to not see nitrates at some point in the process. I seem to have gotten to skip this in the 135, but that was pure luck and overkill (the pH plunge was not fun) from having such huge baskets.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> So a week+ later and no change in results. Haven't done a water change since last post, just top offs and cleaned/changed mechanical in a couple filters. Again, I doubt my smaller tanks have fully cycled yet (in fact Dr. Novak suggests this can take several months in some situations, though 2-3 seems most common), but the plenums and BCBs capture enough ammonia that I'm still not seeing nitrates (or nitrites or ammonia). I decided to add some plants over the weekend, so now have pothos and peace lillies growing out of the 3 largest tanks. They haven't adjusted their roots yet, but they seem to have transitioned out of the pot fine because new growth is showing. I've grown them out of my tanks at various times in the past. They always helped with nitrates a little (especially once they really get going) but not like the clay has so far. I'm assuming this won't starve out the plants as they have the opportunity to pull ammonia out of the water column, but we'll see. I mostly would like them to provide a root ceiling in the tank for shade and more hiding spots.
> Also, my pH has pretty much completely stabilized around neutral after tanking below 6 when I added my very large BCBs to the 135 gallon's sump. I believe those BCBs have cycled enough that they are in fact converting nitrates and ammonia to nitrogen gas. They have been running for 4+ months now and I doubt they'd still be absorbing ammonia if it weren't being converted, but they are very large, so who knows. I'll keep updating.
> I expect in my 20, 55 and 75 I will see some nitrates before everything fully cycles since the BCBs aren't nearly as large (and the 20 only has the plenum for biological). Traditional BB is still propagating all over the tanks (or it should be), so I'd be surprised to not see nitrates at some point in the process. I seem to have gotten to skip this in the 135, but that was pure luck and overkill (the pH plunge was not fun) from having such huge baskets.


The bcb can take months to fully mature and start completing full nitrogen cycle. Typical tank cycling we do (which takes weeks) is not needed in Anoxic filtration I believe. Dr. Novak never talks about tank cycling fish or fishless cycle.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Rockfella said:


> Dr. Novak never talks about tank cycling fish or fishless cycle.


So true. This is the part that scares me!


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

marten said:


> So true. This is the part that scares me!


You should not be.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Regular cycling isn't necessary but it will still happen as bb is everywhere anyway. Since that cycle will complete first, I expect to see some nitrates for a little while in the 3 newly converted tanks until the BCBs and/or plenums are fully cycled.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Patience now....
I've FINALLY got an unused overflow type aquarium w/sump identified for this 'science project'. Plan is to get that totally empty tank set up and running next week (glass walls only and NO other media to remove the introduced Ammonia in that system, but baskets of fresh, Calcined Clay).
Will document the complete process with pictures. And of course - plenty of text. I'm totally looking forward to this!


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Auballagh said:


> Patience now....
> I've FINALLY got an unused overflow type aquarium w/sump identified for this 'science project'. Plan is to get that totally empty tank set up and running next week (glass walls only and NO other media to remove the introduced Ammonia in that system, but baskets of fresh, Calcined Clay).
> Will document the complete process with pictures. And of course - plenty of text. I'm totally looking forward to this!


Crank ammonia to 8ppm. I'm glad you're on it. Bigger basket is better. 4"X4"X4" is good, 4"x8"X4" is better, bigger than this is great.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

So it's been about three weeks since my last post. I have done 1 25-30% water change on each of my anoxic tanks just to do them. All nitrogen levels are at 0 still. The pothos/lillies I'm growing in the tanks are converting their roots very slowly. I've seen some new roots, but still not with the little hairs stems everywhere yet (they were only added just before the last update). The vines and leaves are growing well though. This really has put maintaining water quality on easy mode. I'm going out of town for a couple weeks on Tuesday and my sister will be stopping by daily to feed and inspect while I'm away. Normally I'd be nervous (I've come home to some messy tanks in the past). Genuinely not worried at all so long as there aren't any long term power outages. The water is so clean, I found duckweed in my 20 gallon over a month ago. I didn't touch it. There are still only 3 pieces of duckweed floating nearly 6 weeks later under a plant light. Meanwhile the plants rooted in the substrate seem to be loving the plenum as they've exploded in growth.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> So it's been about three weeks since my last post. I have done 1 25-30% water change on each of my anoxic tanks just to do them. All nitrogen levels are at 0 still. The pothos/lillies I'm growing in the tanks are converting their roots very slowly. I've seen some new roots, but still not with the little hairs stems everywhere yet (they were only added just before the last update). The vines and leaves are growing well though. This really has put maintaining water quality on easy mode. I'm going out of town for a couple weeks on Tuesday and my sister will be stopping by daily to feed and inspect while I'm away. Normally I'd be nervous (I've come home to some messy tanks in the past). Genuinely not worried at all so long as there aren't any long term power outages. The water is so clean, I found duckweed in my 20 gallon over a month ago. I didn't touch it. There are still only 3 pieces of duckweed floating nearly 6 weeks later under a plant light. Meanwhile the plants rooted in the substrate seem to be loving the plenum as they've exploded in growth.


Great going. Beware.. you'll be doing a lot less work and your planted tank may soon become a jungle aquarium .. you may get bored of this hobby as there won't be much to do.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Rockfella said:


> Great going. Beware.. you'll be doing a lot less work and your planted tank may soon become a jungle aquarium .. you may get bored of this hobby as there won't be much to do.


That'll take a while. I've been in the hobby for decades, though my MTS does lead to the occasional burnout phase where I break down most of the tanks. But I always keep a couple running and eventually come back to it. I really don't miss constant water changes and maintenance. This has been way too much fun. Only issue is, now I want more tanks again.

The funniest part to me is that I used to think of water tests as a chore. Now I've been pleasantly surprised so consistently, I look forward to them. The little nugget of dread of 'is this the day it turns out this doesn't actually work?' is still there, but it's fading fast and I'm really not nervous at all about going out of town with a lay person in charge of the tanks.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

So as my 135 approaches 6 months being converted to BCBs in the sump, a thought has dawned on me. Even if I have done something wrong so that anoxic conditions aren't created and the baskets are just soaking up ammonia waiting for the day they're saturated to start leaching toxins back in, I'd still continue this. First of all, I think they are cycled and working. Secondly, it's been almost 6 months since I had a reading for ammonia, nitrite or nitrate in that tank and I've barely done water changes in that time (1 big one when I set up the plenum without clay a little over a month ago and maybe 4 or 5 small ones, 20-30%, in that time). If it went at least 6 more months like this (and they're big enough it would probably take a lot longer to saturate them, but let's just say after a year they start leaching), that would be a year for the cost of 1 bag of oil dry. Yeah, I'll pay $13 a year for these results if I have to, though I doubt I will. I think I'd pay $13 every six months for these results if it stopped working in a couple weeks, though I'd be really disappointed. It's not just the nitrate levels, my water has been crystal clear for months and the fish have been colored up and active on a new level. The effect when I switched the other tanks with both clay included plenums and planted BCBs in the sumps has been even better, though it's been just under 2 months for them running and they're much smaller, so I'm not sure I'd continue with them if this doesn't work long term as they'd saturate much more quickly (but it's been 2 months and no signs of it, plus they're planted so they're getting help).

TLDR: the clay is a useful media and should be studied more even if this doesn't really work as advertised (which I believe it does).


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

I'm fish-less cycling some more anoxic media (BCB) in a bare 10 gallon using normal dosages of ammonia. It looks like it immediately starts to absorb a large percentage of the ammonia, but it produced low levels of nitrite within the normal amount of time. I suspect it acts as a sort of reservoir for ammonia where the bacteria colony develops to break it down. It seems to cycle to break down ammonia and nitrite within the same amount of time as traditional aerobic media (3 to 4 weeks). Nitrate reduction takes longer, in my experience 10 weeks with either Plenum or BCB.

I did not see any reduction or change to PH in any of the tanks were I'm using anoxic filtration. I keep my KH at 7, so maybe that's enough to offset any extra ions being pulled into the media.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> So as my 135 approaches 6 months being converted to BCBs in the sump, a thought has dawned on me. Even if I have done something wrong so that anoxic conditions aren't created and the baskets are just soaking up ammonia waiting for the day they're saturated to start leaching toxins back in, I'd still continue this. First of all, I think they are cycled and working. Secondly, it's been almost 6 months since I had a reading for ammonia, nitrite or nitrate in that tank and I've barely done water changes in that time (1 big one when I set up the plenum without clay a little over a month ago and maybe 4 or 5 small ones, 20-30%, in that time). If it went at least 6 more months like this (and they're big enough it would probably take a lot longer to saturate them, but let's just say after a year they start leaching), that would be a year for the cost of 1 bag of oil dry. Yeah, I'll pay $13 a year for these results if I have to, though I doubt I will. I think I'd pay $13 every six months for these results if it stopped working in a couple weeks, though I'd be really disappointed. It's not just the nitrate levels, my water has been crystal clear for months and the fish have been colored up and active on a new level. The effect when I switched the other tanks with both clay included plenums and planted BCBs in the sumps has been even better, though it's been just under 2 months for them running and they're much smaller, so I'm not sure I'd continue with them if this doesn't work long term as they'd saturate much more quickly (but it's been 2 months and no signs of it, plus they're planted so they're getting help).
> 
> TLDR: the clay is a useful media and should be studied more even if this doesn't really work as advertised (which I believe it does).


It was never advertised because no-one could make money out of selling cheap clay. Probably why this system never caught up. It's not new. It's decades old.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

marten said:


> I'm fish-less cycling some more anoxic media (BCB) in a bare 10 gallon using normal dosages of ammonia. It looks like it immediately starts to absorb a large percentage of the ammonia, but it produced low levels of nitrite within the normal amount of time. I suspect it acts as a sort of reservoir for ammonia where the bacteria colony develops to break it down. It seems to cycle to break down ammonia and nitrite within the same amount of time as traditional aerobic media (3 to 4 weeks). Nitrate reduction takes longer, in my experience 10 weeks with either Plenum or BCB.
> 
> I did not see any reduction or change to PH in any of the tanks were I'm using anoxic filtration. I keep my KH at 7, so maybe that's enough to offset any extra ions being pulled into the media.


Yes. For me 8ppm ammonia was absorbed in 48 hours and I couldn't believe it. Found this accidently actually. So I did a lot of experimental dosing of ammonia last year. Nitrate reduction takes time. Sometimes months 2/6/9 maybe even more. Clay absorbs ammonia rapidly. Doesn't release it back in the water.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> That'll take a while. I've been in the hobby for decades, though my MTS does lead to the occasional burnout phase where I break down most of the tanks. But I always keep a couple running and eventually come back to it. I really don't miss constant water changes and maintenance. This has been way too much fun. Only issue is, now I want more tanks again.
> 
> The funniest part to me is that I used to think of water tests as a chore. Now I've been pleasantly surprised so consistently, I look forward to them. The little nugget of dread of 'is this the day it turns out this doesn't actually work?' is still there, but it's fading fast and I'm really not nervous at all about going out of town with a lay person in charge of the tanks.


Can't agree more. Water changes is satisfying and I look forward for it. Even when the water is super clear and I probably can manage with less water changes.. i do it during weekends anyway.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Rockfella said:


> It was never advertised because no-one could make money out of selling cheap clay. Probably why this system never caught up. It's not new. It's decades old.


I vaguely remember back in the 90's Aquaclear sold a packet (just like their old carbon bags) with what looked liked small clay gravel as 'ammonia eaters' to run in their HOBs. I don't remember if this was actually the same type of product or not because I didn't use it, but I imagine it was. I worked at an LFS as a teenager then and my boss scoffed when I asked about it and said it was for people who don't know how to keep a fish tank. At the time, I thought he knew everything, so I just moved on and never thought to try it and it didn't sell particularly well. Now I'm thinking that it was marketed very poorly and they let a bunch of people who don't know what they're talking about talk customers out of trying it. I also think they weren't utilizing it quite right either. It was definitely seen as a 'temporary' media and they were probably designed for the water to push through them.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

I strongly believe clay should be a part of every home aquarium in some form or other. Either in the substrate or somewhere in the sump.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Got back from a 2 week vacation late last night. Checked the tanks today, all parameters pretty much exactly where I left them. Plants exploded in growth. Spent a couple hours trimming them and replanting some. I did have a little bit of hair algae growing in my 20 gallon shrimp tank, so I dialed the timer back to 8 hours from 10, but I think I just left too much food for that tank. Otherwise conditions were all perfect and all the plants had tons of new growth. Pothos and lilly roots started taking off a little bit in the cichlid tanks, but still slow going. Nitrates were well under 10 ppm in every tank. Actually 0 in the 135, 75 and 55 (all 3 have BCBs and plenums). In the 20 (no BCB, just plenum and an AC50 for mechanical) I got my first readings for nitrates since setting up the AFS, but it wasn't close to being 5-10 ppm, just slightly off the 0 coloration. I'll probably do water changes this weekend, but everything looks great. Water is super clear. Had my sister and mother in law coming by to feed and other than leaving too much food for the shrimp tank, all the fish look real healthy and full. The juveniles grew a ton in 2 weeks. 
I just ordered an undergravel filter and cheap grow light for a 10 gallon that's been sitting dry for a while. Gonna set it up with a plenum using the clay, flourite black and some plain, small black gravel. That one will be heavily planted with my first attempt at a 'serious' aquascape. I have an old school box filter I can run along with the plenum on an air pump to keep it simple. Figure a betta tank since I haven't done one in a long time.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> Got back from a 2 week vacation late last night. Checked the tanks today, all parameters pretty much exactly where I left them. Plants exploded in growth. Spent a couple hours trimming them and replanting some. I did have a little bit of hair algae growing in my 20 gallon shrimp tank, so I dialed the timer back to 8 hours from 10, but I think I just left too much food for that tank. Otherwise conditions were all perfect and all the plants had tons of new growth. Pothos and lilly roots started taking off a little bit in the cichlid tanks, but still slow going. Nitrates were well under 10 ppm in every tank. Actually 0 in the 135, 75 and 55 (all 3 have BCBs and plenums). In the 20 (no BCB, just plenum and an AC50 for mechanical) I got my first readings for nitrates since setting up the AFS, but it wasn't close to being 5-10 ppm, just slightly off the 0 coloration. I'll probably do water changes this weekend, but everything looks great. Water is super clear. Had my sister and mother in law coming by to feed and other than leaving too much food for the shrimp tank, all the fish look real healthy and full. The juveniles grew a ton in 2 weeks.
> I just ordered an undergravel filter and cheap grow light for a 10 gallon that's been sitting dry for a while. Gonna set it up with a plenum using the clay, flourite black and some plain, small black gravel. That one will be heavily planted with my first attempt at a 'serious' aquascape. I have an old school box filter I can run along with the plenum on an air pump to keep it simple. Figure a betta tank since I haven't done one in a long time.


Great. These results are very common with AFS. Good luck with the new build. For the small tank use the least powerful bubbler you can find to move very less water.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Rockfella said:


> Great. These results are very common with AFS. Good luck with the new build. For the small tank use the least powerful bubbler you can find to move very less water.


I'll be using a whisper 10. But I'm running both the plenum and the box filter with it. For all the plenums I put a flow valve on the air tube and turn it off and slowly open it until bubbles are just barely pushing through constantly. On this one, I'll be able to split the tube and run as much as possible through the box filter with the plenum end just barely pushing air. The box filter will use filter floss and some homemade chemipure since I don't really trust the city water and I know it often has a lot of phosphates.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

I'm just getting started building my BCB for my sump. I will be using...
Amazon.com : Brightwell Aquatics FlorinBase Laterin Substrat VF - Very Fine Granular High Porosity Clay Base Substrate for Planted and Freshwater Shrimp Aquaria, 400 Grams : Pet Supplies 
EP Minerals Safety Absorbent, 7941 at Tractor Supply Co. 
And.. FUNLAVIE fine mesh aquarium filter bags with plastic zipper closure. 
Hoping I got the right stuff...


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Aussieman57 said:


> I'm just getting started building my BCB for my sump. I will be using...
> Amazon.com : Brightwell Aquatics FlorinBase Laterin Substrat VF - Very Fine Granular High Porosity Clay Base Substrate for Planted and Freshwater Shrimp Aquaria, 400 Grams : Pet Supplies
> EP Minerals Safety Absorbent, 7941 at Tractor Supply Co.
> And.. FUNLAVIE fine mesh aquarium filter bags with plastic zipper closure.
> Hoping I got the right stuff...


You can use that substrate for your iron source inside the BCB (I used powered laterite, but that was dusty), but the BCB should be 90%+ the 'kitty litter'. From what I see on the label that clay from TSC should be the right stuff. I got a different brand from Autozone, but looks like the same stuff. If it's going in the sump you can build as big a BCB as you want to fit the area you have with enough space around it (including under it) for the water to channel. The bags work fine, but just a thought as I think the bigger your BCB, the better. 

This stuff: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07HF56SBK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s02?ie=UTF8&psc=1

can be cut up and zip tied together to make any shape and works really well (I lined milk crates with extra drilled holes in it with the mesh for mine). I also tied together a bunch of them to create a sheet I laid down within the substrate. I laid down what I wanted for my plenum, then put down the mesh layer, then laid another inch or so of substrate on top. That way when the cichlids dig, they run into that and don't disturb the plenum. It also allows plants to root down far enough to not get dug up, but you have to get them really established before the cichlid is big enough to care.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Aussieman57 said:


> I'm just getting started building my BCB for my sump. I will be using...
> Amazon.com : Brightwell Aquatics FlorinBase Laterin Substrat VF - Very Fine Granular High Porosity Clay Base Substrate for Planted and Freshwater Shrimp Aquaria, 400 Grams : Pet Supplies
> EP Minerals Safety Absorbent, 7941 at Tractor Supply Co.
> And.. FUNLAVIE fine mesh aquarium filter bags with plastic zipper closure.
> Hoping I got the right stuff...


Looks right to me


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Made my BCB bags for my 125 gallon tank today & put 4 bags in my 55 gallon sump. Have a 5th bag made up but left it out for now as not sure where to put it. Also wasn't sure how much to rinse these bags. So I went for a medium rinse which wasn't enuf. Clouded the water a bit but that should clear up over the next day. Any way that laterite sure won't hurt the plant growth in the tank and the fish don't seem to care. Placed the 4 bags between the last 2 sponge sections in my sump. Do you think I should add the 5th bag and if so where?






















Really interested to see how well this works for nitrate reduction. Also wondering how long it takes to kick in.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Rockfella do you think I should add the 5th bag or is 4 enuf?


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Aussieman57 said:


> Made my BCB bags for my 125 gallon tank today & put 4 bags in my 55 gallon sump. Have a 5th bag made up but left it out for now as not sure where to put it. Also wasn't sure how much to rinse these bags. So I went for a medium rinse which wasn't enuf. Clouded the water a bit but that should clear up over the next day. Any way that laterite sure won't hurt the plant growth in the tank and the fish don't seem to care. Placed the 4 bags between the last 2 sponge sections in my sump. Do you think I should add the 5th bag and if so where?
> View attachment 143355
> View attachment 143356
> View attachment 143357
> ...


Water should clear in a day or two. Consider this performance check of your filter too. Laterite if nothing else should be great for plants. I just found out a lfs stocks brightwell products nearby (I'm in India so I'm glad lol). Clay starts working instantly. The "kickin" may take months.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Rockfella said:


> Water should clear in a day or two. Consider this performance check of your filter too. Laterite if nothing else should be great for plants. I just found out a lfs stocks brightwell products nearby (I'm in India so I'm glad lol). Clay starts working instantly. The "kickin" may take months.


Should I add the 5th bag or is 4 enuf?


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Rockfella do you think I should add the 5th bag or is 4 enuf?
[/QUOTE] Clay may reduce pH. Consider adding the last one after few days.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Rockfella said:


> Rockfella do you think I should add the 5th bag or is 4 enuf?


 Clay may reduce pH. Consider adding the last one after few days.
[/QUOTE]
Interesting. I thought per Dr. Novak it did not affect pH. I'm thinking I may toss that 5th bag in one of the Eheim canister filters I'm running on another tank.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Aussieman57 said:


> Clay may reduce pH. Consider adding the last one after few days.


Interesting. I thought per Dr. Novak it did not affect pH. I'm thinking I may toss that 5th bag in one of the Eheim canister filters I'm running on another tank.
[/QUOTE]
He added baking soda to increase pH. Test it.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Will continue to monitor pH & report nitrate readings. I think my filtration works pretty well as the tank water has already cleared. I may add a large piece of Texas Holey Rock to my sumps 1st chamber to help buffer pH.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

I had a significant pH drop when I first switched. I used a ridiculous amount of clay though and it stabilized back around my tank's normal range after a few weeks (like 6 maybe, can't remember exactly now). If you have space, I'd add more. So long as there is space for the water to channel around the bags and not be pushed through it, I'd fill as much space as you have in the sump. The pH bounces back once things settle and shouldn't be a huge consideration. 

As for nitrate reduction, how are you running the BCBs? Are they after traditional media in the filter or did they replace the traditional media? The reduction will be greater if you removed the traditional media and let the clay handle the ammonia in the tank. It's much better at that than attracting nitrates directly.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

It is recommended to go full on with AFS and get rid of old media. Works better.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> I had a significant pH drop when I first switched.* What was the pH drop numerically??*
> 
> As for nitrate reduction, how are you running the BCBs? Are they after traditional media in the filter or did they replace the traditional media? The reduction will be greater if you removed the traditional media and let the clay handle the ammonia in the tank. It's much better at that than attracting nitrates directly. *The only other media in the sump is Sponges. *


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

@Aussieman57 Sponge is media. Remove it. In the pic you shared it looks like sponges are blacking/restricting water flow.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Rockfella said:


> @Aussieman57 Sponge is media. Remove it. In the pic you shared it looks like sponges are blacking/restricting water flow.


There are no chambers in this sump. Water flows directly through sponge walls horizontally. Think of a giant canister filter turned on its side. In the last set of sponges the BCB bags are in place where water flows through one sponge around the BCB bags and then through the next sponge. There is no blocking or restriction of flow.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Your BCB bags are quite narrow. I'd be concerned about water possibly flowing through them, but I think you could avoid that by laying them down flat.

Ideally you want mechanical filtration with BCBs behind it. Sponges are mechanical and biological (aerobic), so you're going the safe route (I would do that too). After you start seeing nitrate reduction you could remove some of the sponges to let the BCBs start doing more of the work. I only use Socks -> BCBs -> Return Pump.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

marten said:


> Your BCB bags are quite narrow. I'd be concerned about water possibly flowing through them, but I think you could avoid that by laying them down flat.
> 
> Ideally you want mechanical filtration with BCBs behind it. Sponges are mechanical and biological (aerobic), so you're going the safe route (I would do that too). After you start seeing nitrate reduction you could remove some of the sponges to let the BCBs start doing more of the work. I only use Socks -> BCBs -> Return Pump.


The BCB bags are just a hair under 3 inches in width. I'm using the same Funlavie Aquarium Filter with plastic zipper closure that Dr. Novak utilized in one of his videos so I figured they would be OK. Like you stated I am going the safe route for now because this tank is established with 5 G. Balzanii (4 inch females & one 6 inch male) & a half dozen large 4 inch swordtails. Did not want to totally disrupt the tank. I am using 1 large 10 inch sock at sump inlet. 
I like your idea regarding waiting to see nitrate reduction and then gradually decreasing the sponges to let the BCB's do more of the work. 
You still think at 3 inch width they would work better if I stacked them flat one on top of the other? Right now they are standing upright with 2 on the bottom and 2 on the top. I know Novak uses this design stacked in canisters and also stacked flat in canisters. He comments that it really does not make any difference how they are stacked as long as water flows around them.
Once I see some progress with these BCB bags I may build an eggcrate basket and ditch some of the sponges.
I'm wondering how long it will be before I see any results???


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

What do you think about removing the last sponge (furthest on left in pic) and stacking 5 bags on top of each other (kind of pyramid style with 2 on bottom laying flat, 2 flat on top of those and one on top??? They'd be stacked near the pump but I'm thinking that won't matter.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

As long as the sponges are mostly running mechanical, you should see a significant reduction in the amount of nitrates produced going forward (it will take the system a while to actually start converting the nitrates you already have). Don't be afraid to clean those sponges right under the sink. Don't worry about protecting the bacteria in them.

My pH usually fluctuates a touch below 7 up to 7. When I first put in the clay (I used close to 40 lbs. in all on my 135), my pH dropped to the 5's fluctuating to just under 6 on the high end. After about a month and a half, it stabilized back to where it is now in the high 6's. I used a test strip just now and it says the pH is between 6.4 and 6.8. I didn't feel like breaking out the whole kit.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

So these uploaded a little out of order and I hope they didn't format too huge. My sump on my 135 is 2 sterilite totes plumbed together. Here I'm using filter socks for mechanical. I usually use filter jars I made (1000x quiter), but they have to be cleaned every 2-3 days, so I ran the socks while I was on vacation so my sister wouldn't have to clean them. I'll switch the jars back in this weekend probably. That's it for mechanical though. Most of the space are filled with the milk crate BCBs and then the pumps are on the opposite sides of the BCBs from the jars/socks with a bag of crushed coral on them I put in when I was panicking about the pH. It actually stabilized itself before I got any calcium readings, but I left them in since they weren't hurting anything. 

The last set of pics is how I set up my overhead sumps for my 75 and 55 (pics are from the 75). I planted those BCBs with pothos also sprinkled in some cycled substrate when I started them up. There is a sponge on the pump intake in the tank (maxijet 1200), then they go into the sump, through another sponge and under a baffle to the 2 planted BCBS (made from 12"x5"x3.5" 'pencil baskets' with extra holes drilled in. Both those and the milk crates are lined with the mesh I posted the other day. Then water goes over the second baffle into the drain section. I use rocks to hold down the sponges in the first section and keep the exit tube from making sucking sounds in the drain section.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Oh, lol, don't worry about that vent. No air actually blows through it. It's purely a hole in the wall for the furnace and AC unit on the other side of the wall to draw air more easily.

Also, it can be hard to tell from the pics, but the water line in the planter/overhead sump is above the entirety of those gray pencil baskets/BCBs. In the big sump, the water line is above the clay but not the entire milk crate, but that's easier to see in the pics.

The intake tube for the planter/overhead sump turned that color very early, I believe due to me using too much laterite (it slipped) in the plenum which got kicked up a ton when I filled the tank. It also created a layer on most of the glass I had to wipe off. Sticky stuff. The hose on my 55 didn't have that happen because I just sprinkled in the laterite and didn't accidentally dump a mountain of it. It has a little bit of brown in the hose now, especially where the light hits it strongest, but nothing unusual.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Aussieman57 said:


> What do you think about removing the last sponge (furthest on left in pic) and stacking 5 bags on top of each other (kind of pyramid style with 2 on bottom laying flat, 2 flat on top of those and one on top??? They'd be stacked near the pump but I'm thinking that won't matter.
> View attachment 143361


Is there a gap below the bags? Sponges look too much.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

I didn't notice all those sponges and pot scrubbers on the right. Those will be nitrate factories before most of the ammonia can get to the BCBs. You just want to have some mechanical before the water gets to the clay. They don't really work by eating the nitrates. They hold the ammonium and once they're fully cycled (which takes a while) they can convert ammonia straight to nitrogen. The nitrates it converts to nitrogen are the ones that are created in the BCB from ammonium it grabs, as they slowly move through towards the middle of the bag/basket where excess oxygen gets rare. That's why you want water to channel around the BCB and not through it. They don't draw in many nitrates from the water column though.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Aussieman57 said:


> What do you think about removing the last sponge (furthest on left in pic) and stacking 5 bags on top of each other (kind of pyramid style with 2 on bottom laying flat, 2 flat on top of those and one on top??? They'd be stacked near the pump but I'm thinking that won't matter.


Yeah that's a good idea. I'd suggest you put as many bags in there in there as you can without disrupting your main biomedia. I found there were plenty of small gaps when i stacked my BCB bags, and there was lots of water flowing around the bags, but you could always put some small objects between them just to create larger gaps. I ended up using some really huge zipper bags when i did mine, but if Dr Novak used those, I'm thinking it should work just fine. 

Edit: Another thought: You're probably better off having your BCBs before your aerobic media, so the BCBs get first chance to process incoming ammonia and just leaving the aerobic media there to clean up the rest. Otherwise it might take a long time for the BCBs to mature.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

My suggestion will be to remove all sponges but one (just for mechanical) and add the 5th bcb.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

marten said:


> Yeah that's a good idea. I'd suggest you put as many bags in there in there as you can without disrupting your main biomedia. I found there were plenty of small gaps when i stacked my BCB bags, and there was lots of water flowing around the bags, but you could always put some small objects between them just to create larger gaps. I ended up using *some really huge zipper bags* when i did mine, but if Dr Novak used those, I'm thinking it should work just fine.
> *Where did you get these big bags???*
> 
> Edit: Another thought: You're probably better off having your BCBs before your aerobic media, so the BCBs get first chance to process incoming ammonia and just leaving the aerobic media there to clean up the rest. Otherwise it might take a long time for the BCBs to mature.


*I was thinking about this. I could move the BCB bags to the 1st part (inlet part) of sump where the filter sock is. That way the BCB bags would get first crack at incoming ammonia. My only concern was whether there would be too much water flow at this location??? The bags I am using are fine mesh 6 inches X 8 inches.*


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> I didn't notice all those sponges and pot scrubbers on the right. Those will be nitrate factories before most of the ammonia can get to the BCBs. You just want to have some mechanical before the water gets to the clay. They don't really work by eating the nitrates. They hold the ammonium and once they're fully cycled (which takes a while) they can convert ammonia straight to nitrogen. The nitrates it converts to nitrogen are the ones that are created in the BCB from ammonium it grabs, as they slowly move through towards the middle of the bag/basket where excess oxygen gets rare. That's why you want water to channel around the BCB and not through it. They don't draw in many nitrates from the water column though.


*I was thinking about moving the bags to the inlet end of the sump where the filter sock is located. Here the BCB's would get first crack at incoming ammonia. My only concern was whether there would be too much water flow in this area???*


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Just want to note that I appreciate the input, help and the patience your giving me in this process. My main concern here is disrupting the nitrogen cycle that has long been established in this tank and harming the fish that reside here.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

@Aussieman57 these are what I bought. https://a.co/d/aBOLnq5 Dimensions are 14" x 10"

As long as water doesn't get forced through the BCBs more water movement is generally better.

Edit: Doing the math on my BCB volumes, to get it down to zero nitrates I'm estimating about 8 to 12 cubic inches of media per inch of fish.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Per suggestions/guidance from Marten, Rockfella & Neverenoughtanks I re-arranged things a bit. I took out the first sponge wall at inlet end, built a platform out of PVC pipe and eggcrate & stacked the 5 BCB bags at inlet end of sump in 1st chamber with filter sock. I'm hoping this will work better with better flow around the bags (not through) & give the BCB bags first crack at ammonia as it comes into sump. As things progress I will remove more sponges and add BCB. What do you guys think; better approach???


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

You want a high flow, just not forced through the clay media. It should be able to channel around the media, but as long as it can, the higher the flow the better. I wouldn't put them directly beneath the socks, but my socks/jars are right next to the basket.

Edit: pics finally loaded up. Yeah, that's how I'd approach it. just keep stacking bags or build a large basket for that area.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Aussieman57 said:


> Per suggestions/guidance from Marten, Rockfella & Neverenoughtanks I re-arranged things a bit. I took out the first sponge wall at inlet end, built a platform out of PVC pipe and eggcrate & stacked the 5 BCB bags at inlet end of sump in 1st chamber with filter sock. I'm hoping this will work better with better flow around the bags (not through) & give the BCB bags first crack at ammonia as it comes into sump. As things progress I will remove more sponges and add BCB. What do you guys think; better approach???
> View attachment 143380
> View attachment 143381
> View attachment 143382
> ...


Looks a lot better.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

I just want to thank you guys again (Rockfella, Marten, Neverenoughtanks) for your patience with me and all the help that has been provided guiding me through this process. It is greatly appreciated. Right now I'm checking pH & nitrate levels. pH has only dropped from 7.0 to 6.8 so far. Nitrates staying @ 20 ppm.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

You probably won't see much of a reduction of the current nitrates without a wc, but you should see a significant reduction in the rate they get created going forward as the bags soak in the ammonium. That should happen even while the bags cycle. Good luck and I'd definitely say a few more bags will only help.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Yup already ordered the bags.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Keep on tinkering. LOL. I built a BCB basket out of egg crate and zip ties to hold the bags better together. Bags stacked 4 high & 1 vertically filling space on side of basket. Basket elevated with PVC pipe. I believe stacking these tighter in this manner will get better water flow around the BCB bags.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

I like it. I would actually say give the bags a little gap (maybe half an inch to an inch) between each other as much as you can. If they're going to be in separate bags might as well take advantage of the surface area on them and let the water channel between them and around them all. Gives them more opportunity to draw in the ammonium.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

@Aussieman57 No use keeping that sponge after the bags, You may remove it OR keep it in before the bags.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> I like it. I would actually say give the bags a little gap (maybe half an inch to an inch) between each other as much as you can. If they're going to be in separate bags might as well take advantage of the surface area on them and let the water channel between them and around them all. Gives them more opportunity to draw in the ammonium.


I though we decided to pack them closer together so water would not flow thru the bags to give anoxic area a better place.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Rockfella said:


> @Aussieman57 No use keeping that sponge after the bags, You may remove it OR keep it in before the bags.


Can't pull that sponge yet. It literally forms the wall that is holding in foam cubes that is part of this filter. Also if I put the sponge before the bags all the denitrifiers in the sponge will convert ammonia. I thought the goal was to give these bags first exposure to the ammonia?


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Aussieman57 said:


> I though we decided to pack them closer together so water would not flow thru the bags to give anoxic area a better place.


The 'anoxic zone' will be in the center of each individual bag eventually. Pushing them together isn't going to make one large BCB. It's still a bunch of separate ones. The more surface area of each bag that touches the water channeling around them will give the BCBs more opportunity to pull ammonium. You could create one very large BCB in that space which would probably work really well, but with the bags, I'd leave just a small gap between each. Honestly, if there is enough clay to handle the system, it's not going to make or break the system. But when Dr. Novak sets up sumps with multiple BCBs in them, there is space between them for water to flow.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Aussieman57 said:


> Can't pull that sponge yet. It literally forms the wall that is holding in foam cubes that is part of this filter. Also if I put the sponge before the bags all the denitrifiers in the sponge will convert ammonia. I thought the goal was to give these bags first exposure to the ammonia?


I agree with not putting the sponge before the clay since you have the socks for mechanical. I do think you could pull the sponges and be fine, but I also understand if you want to get more BCBs in there first.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> You could create one very large BCB in that space which would probably work really well.


I would eventually like to build a large rectangular BCB for the sump. Thoughts on how to build this?


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Also


neverenoughtanks said:


> I like it. I would actually say give the bags a little gap (maybe half an inch to an inch) between each other as much as you can. If they're going to be in separate bags might as well take advantage of the surface area on them and let the water channel between them and around them all. Gives them more opportunity to draw in the ammonium.


I wrapped cable ties around my bags to hold them tightly together, but it gave me the added benefit of water being able to flow underneath the bag more easily.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

marten said:


> Also
> 
> 
> I wrapped cable ties around my bags to hold them tightly together, but it gave me the added benefit of water being able to flow underneath the bag more easily.
> ...


So you used cable ties to hold multiple bags together??


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Aussieman57 said:


> So you used cable ties to hold multiple bags together??


No, i just wrapped the individual bags to hold them tight. I originally did that because some bags were only partly full. But I found that the ties pulled the bags in enough to let water pass around them even when placed flat on the bottom of the sump.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

marten said:


> No, i just wrapped the individual bags to hold them tight. I originally did that because some bags were only partly full. But I found that the ties pulled the bags in enough to let water pass around them even when placed flat on the bottom of the sump.


Makes sense. I just elevated mine on PVC & eggcrate.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Aussieman57 said:


> I would eventually like to build a large rectangular BCB for the sump. Thoughts on how to build this?











Amazon.com: Tosnail 20 Pack 7 Count Clear Plastic Mesh Canvas Sheets for Embroidery Crafting - 10.5" x 13.5" : Arts, Crafts & Sewing


Amazon.com: Tosnail 20 Pack 7 Count Clear Plastic Mesh Canvas Sheets for Embroidery Crafting - 10.5" x 13.5" : Arts, Crafts & Sewing



www.amazon.com





This stuff is really useful. You can line a large container with big holes in them like my pencil baskets and milk crates, or you can build the box out of this stuff itself. It cuts really easily and small zip ties can fit through the holes to easily hold them together, or you can use glue. You can also make cylindrical baskets with it if you like, since it's pretty flexible. The smallest pieces of clay may fall through it, but I haven't had a lot of spillage. I lined other containers to have more rigid baskets.

The planter baskets with a lot of holes in them are excellent too from what I've heard. The main thing is to make sure it's porous but won't just spill the clay.

Edit: found the planter baskets









Amazon.com: Cobalt Aquatics Square Planter Basket : Patio, Lawn & Garden


Buy Cobalt Aquatics Square Planter Basket: Planters - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com





That mesh is also what I use in my substrate to protect my plenums from digging cichlids. I cut and tied a few pieces together to make a single sheet the size of the footprint of the tank and cut out a hole for the plenum lift tube. Put down the UGF and substrate for the plenum, including a layer of clay and laterite, put this over it, then put another inch of substrate over that. Cichlids can only dig down until the mesh, the water passes through it for the plenum no problem, and it gives plants a chance to root down where they're harder to dig out.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> Amazon.com: Tosnail 20 Pack 7 Count Clear Plastic Mesh Canvas Sheets for Embroidery Crafting - 10.5" x 13.5" : Arts, Crafts & Sewing
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Tosnail 20 Pack 7 Count Clear Plastic Mesh Canvas Sheets for Embroidery Crafting - 10.5" x 13.5" : Arts, Crafts & Sewing
> ...


Thanks> The biggest issue I have seen is the laterite powder leaking out all over the place. It eventually clears out but is a PITA. I wish API was still selling the laterite in large particles like gravel but it is out of stock everywhere. Would make this whole process a lot easier and less messy.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

In the BCB baskets, I just put a little bit in the center of the BCB. Filled it up a little over halfway, dug a little hole in the middle, filled that little hole with laterite and finished pouring in the clay. My BCBs are 98% or 99% the clay. I did mix the laterite in the bag I made for the 135's canister. That was cloudier than the baskets in the sump got. My worst laterite experience was accidentally dumping a mountain of it in the plenum in my 75. I took some out, but it was still way too much and that got everywhere. But you only need a little bit of the laterite because iron helps promote bacterial growth (among other things) and a little goes a long way.

I thought you bought some of that substrate with iron in it. If so, you can use that, just use a little bit more of it than the laterite powder. I also looked for the larger laterite and came up empty.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

No I got the Florin Based Laterite Powder from Brightwell Aquatics that Novak used in his video. I am going to call API next week and see if they will be selling it again.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Aussieman57 said:


> No I got the Florin Based Laterite Powder from Brightwell Aquatics that Novak used in his video. I am going to call API next week and see if they will be selling it again.


They don't sell it anymore.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> In the BCB baskets, I just put a little bit in the center of the BCB. Filled it up a little over halfway, dug a little hole in the middle, filled that little hole with laterite and finished pouring in the clay. My BCBs are 98% or 99% the clay. I did mix the laterite in the bag I made for the 135's canister. That was cloudier than the baskets in the sump got. My worst laterite experience was accidentally dumping a mountain of it in the plenum in my 75. I took some out, but it was still way too much and that got everywhere. But you only need a little bit of the laterite because iron helps promote bacterial growth (among other things) and a little goes a long way.
> 
> I thought you bought some of that substrate with iron in it. If so, you can use that, just use a little bit more of it than the laterite powder. I also looked for the larger laterite and came up empty.


I used JBL Florapol as iron source. My bcb is yet to kick in. It was set on March 5th. Fish are doing great but I'm yet to see nitrate reduction. It really worked fast for you (nitrate reduction). I have a pretty big bcb with around 24 lbs of oil dri and 200 grams of Florapol in the center.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Rockfella said:


> I used JBL Florapol as iron source. My bcb is yet to kick in. It was set on March 5th. Fish are doing great but I'm yet to see nitrate reduction. It really worked fast for you (nitrate reduction). I have a pretty big bcb with around 24 lbs of oil dri and 200 grams of Florapol in the center.


Are you saying this process is not working for you???


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Aussieman57 said:


> Are you saying this process is not working for you???


Not fully yet. Dr. Novak's bcb matured after 9 months. Keep going. There are hundreds who saw nitrate reduction fairly quickly.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Mine didn't actually reduce anything. I completely restarted 3 of the tanks from scratch and on my biggest tank I did like 5 huge water changes right around the time I was getting ready to convert the tank and took out all traditional media and replaced sponges, so they were all at 0 nitrates when I converted them. Overkill with the clay mostly meant that it has been absorbing all of the new ammonium. I don't know if they are fully cycled yet, but they're still absorbing all, or nearly all, of the ammonium. Plus I do have plants that eat up any small left overs they miss, which have probably been taking care of any minor amounts of nitrates or ammonia that would eventually show up as nitrates without them.

I will say though, even if my BCBs aren't cycled and never fully do, I'd just replace them when they start leaching the ammonium they're holding. It's been over 7 months now of these results in my 135. I'll pay $13 (1 bag) every 8 months if I have to. My smaller ones have been running a couple months less, but they'd cost far less to replace if I had to. However, I do think my big ones are working fully and even if they aren't, my guess is I still have a while before they're saturated. Even my smaller ones in the planters have been grabbing everything with no signs of saturation, plus they have help with pothos planted straight into them and plenums with clay in the tanks as well. I'm still very optimistic that this will work long term, but even if it turns out to be a fraud, I'm not going back to traditional filter media. This clay works way to too well and it's dirt cheap. I'd just start replacing them annually (or however long they do prove to last)


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> Mine didn't actually reduce anything. I completely restarted 3 of the tanks from scratch and on my biggest tank I did like 5 huge water changes right around the time I was getting ready to convert the tank and took out all traditional media and replaced sponges, so they were all at 0 nitrates when I converted them. Overkill with the clay mostly meant that it has been absorbing all of the new ammonium. I don't know if they are fully cycled yet, but they're still absorbing all, or nearly all, of the ammonium. Plus I do have plants that eat up any small left overs they miss, which have probably been taking care of any minor amounts of nitrates or ammonia that would eventually show up as nitrates without them.
> 
> I will say though, even if my BCBs aren't cycled and never fully do, I'd just replace them when they start leaching the ammonium they're holding. It's been over 7 months now of these results in my 135. I'll pay $13 (1 bag) every 8 months if I have to. My smaller ones have been running a couple months less, but they'd cost far less to replace if I had to. However, I do think my big ones are working fully and even if they aren't, my guess is I still have a while before they're saturated. Even my smaller ones in the planters have been grabbing everything with no signs of saturation, plus they have help with pothos planted straight into them and plenums with clay in the tanks as well. I'm still very optimistic that this will work long term, but even if it turns out to be a fraud, I'm not going back to traditional filter media. This clay works way to too well and it's dirt cheap. I'd just start replacing them annually (or however long they do prove to last)


I have the same thoughts. It's just that I'm in India and each 8lbs oil dri bag costs me 35 usd. Whatever the heck I love this system.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> Mine didn't actually reduce anything. I completely restarted 3 of the tanks from scratch and on my biggest tank I did like 5 huge water changes right around the time I was getting ready to convert the tank and took out all traditional media and replaced sponges, so they were all at 0 nitrates when I converted them. Overkill with the clay mostly meant that it has been absorbing all of the new ammonium. I don't know if they are fully cycled yet, but they're still absorbing all, or nearly all, of the ammonium. Plus I do have plants that eat up any small left overs they miss, which have probably been taking care of any minor amounts of nitrates or ammonia that would eventually show up as nitrates without them.


So you are seeing 0 nitrates? Most likely because the clay is absorbing the ammonia before it gets converted?


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Aussieman57 said:


> So you are seeing 0 nitrates? Most likely because the clay is absorbing the ammonia before it gets converted?


Yeah, in the 75, 55 and 20 gallon tanks I completely broke down everything including filters, washed everything with tap water and in some cases vinegar and H2O2, and let most of it get dry. The clay in the BCBs and plenums was the only thing capable of eating ammonia, which it did immediately. In my 135 I took out the wet/drys and replaced all the media in the Rena Filstar canister. I put a BCB bag in there, fresh filter floss, some homemade 'chemipure' and replaced the old sponges (they were at least 10 years old anyway). I also removed 3/4 of the gravel and all the decorations, most of which got dry as I did a massive water change and deep clean on the tank and then put in a small plenum (just used a 55 gallon UGF because it was on sale for $25 bucks on Amazon), but without clay, before putting it all back in and replanting. So in there a bit of bacteria may have survived, but for the most part those enormous BCBs and the bag in the canister got all of it. I converted the 135 a couple months before the other 3. All had fish in them, though not that many and I've added several since. 

I was fully prepared to do daily water changes for a while, but I stopped getting readings for any nitrogen compounds on my test strips and the water looked great after everything settled. I didn't trust that, so I broke out the test kit (which I hate doing) and got the same readings. This kept happening and I just checked every day, but left it alone for the most part. I converted the other after about 2 months (maybe like a week less). I added more plants, both in and out of the 135 and the plants in the tank didn't really melt much and acclimated quickly. Since then, one of the cichlids (when I find out which one it is, I'm gonna...) has decided they like to eat elodea roots, so those plants are now struggling in the 135, but everything else looks great in there. Minor algae on the plants in my 55 and 75, but plenty of new growth and green popping. The 20 gallon only has the plenum and an HOB for mechanical, I am getting more hair algae in there than I care for, but it also definitely has the strongest light/square inch by far, so I'm pretty sure that's the issue in there. Plants have been growing and spreading and shrimp have been growing and breeding. I haven't done a water change in that tank really. I use a python and usually will suck out a tiny bit before topping off, just so the hose doesn't blow air in the tank, but that's it. The others I've done a handful of 25% or less water changes on since switching over and I did about 30% when I got back from vacation. 

So now, even though regular BB is certainly built back up in the tanks and power filters that run mechanical and chemical, the clay is still grabbing all of the ammonia, or enough of the ammonia that even if a little gets converted to nitrates by the 'mechanical' filters, the plants are going strong and are using them all up. I did have a reading for <5 ppm nitrates in my 20 gallon (again, no BCBs in that one, or pothos) when I got back from vacation, but I know I left way too much food for that tank for my sister (or rather somehow didn't consider that she wouldn't be around to take the leftovers out until the next day) to feed while I was away. I didn't add food to it for a few days when I got back, did a top off and the test strip came back 0. My guess is the test kit would still register a tiny amount, but I'm not worried about it enough to check. 

I have no way of knowing whether the BCBs and plenums are actually doing what they are advertised to do by Dr. Novak. I am assuming they are, because I believe I'd be getting some kind of leeching at this point if they weren't, but I don't know that for sure. I keep tanks that border on or step over the line of overstocked (except the shrimp tank, which is the one that got nitrates, lol), so they've soaked up a lot of ammonium in the past several months. I've been impressed enough so far, that I'm very optimistic for the long term and just set up my 10 gallon using just a plenum and an old school air powered corner/box filter. However, even if the BCBs don't work long term, I will continue using them as cost effective 'short term' media. It's not just the nitrates, my water has been extremely clear and clean (never had any bloom at all) and the fish have been very well colored and extremely active. Juvies have grown at good pace (not record breaking, but healthy), even without constant water changes, and colored up younger than usual. Plants have also grown better than my brown thumb usually manages, especially the rooted ones (at least the ones that cichlids don't eat) which I think is due to the combo of clean water and the plenums feeding them. I'll figure out the algae soon enough and the shrimp colony expanding should help more than it hurts. 

Sorry this was so long, but I wanted to give a full description of my experience so far including the things I'm still in 'trust but verify' mode on and the additional help the system is getting from plenums and plants (though I've done pothos and aquatic plants for years and while it helped a little, I never saw this). I still test the water with test strips at least twice a week (daily or nearly the first few weeks) and was breaking out the test kit every week at least at first, but have slowed down on that as the test strips seem to be accurate enough that I'd notice any spikes. I did use it last week when I got back from vacation, which is when I saw the minor nitrates in the 20. 

Each tank's filtration, all have at least some plants in them, but only the 10 is 'heavily planted' at all and it doesn't have fish yet.
135 - 35 gallon sump with 2 milk crate BCBs, run by 2 pondmaster Mag 7's (probably run about 800-1000 gph combined), Rena Filstar XP3 with BCB bag, chemipure and mechanical. water bottle filter running just mechanical with a maxijet 1200, 55 gallon UGF for plenum. Pothos and peace lilies growing out of tank. 
75 - 3 foot planter sump with 2 planted BCBs (12x5x3.5 each) run by a maxijet 1200 (head only about 10 inches). SunSun 302 for mechanical and chemical, water bottle filter just mechanical MJ1200, full sized UGF with clay included plenum. Pothos growing out of tank.
55 - 2 foot planter sump with 1 planted BCB, MJ1200, head about 1.5 feet. Fluval 305 for mechanical and chemipure. AC50 for just mechanical. full sized UGF with clay included plenum. Pothos growing out of tank. 
20 - 20 gallon UGF for plenum with clay. AC50 for mechanical and chemical. Medium planted. No pothos
10 - 10 gallon UGF plenum with clay, corner box filter, 'heavily' planted, will have pothos. 

Obviously overkill on the first 3, but I've had all the filters for years and used to have more tanks. And I like my little water bottle filters for water polishing because they're so easy to switch out the floss.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Definitely a fun and interesting project.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

neverenoughtanks said:


> Mine didn't actually reduce anything. I completely restarted 3 of the tanks from scratch and on my biggest tank I did like 5 huge water changes right around the time I was getting ready to convert the tank and took out all traditional media and replaced sponges, so they were all at 0 nitrates when I converted them. Overkill with the clay mostly meant that it has been absorbing all of the new ammonium. I don't know if they are fully cycled yet, but they're still absorbing all, or nearly all, of the ammonium. Plus I do have plants that eat up any small left overs they miss, which have probably been taking care of any minor amounts of nitrates or ammonia that would eventually show up as nitrates without them.
> 
> I will say though, even if my BCBs aren't cycled and never fully do, I'd just replace them when they start leaching the ammonium they're holding. It's been over 7 months now of these results in my 135. I'll pay $13 (1 bag) every 8 months if I have to. My smaller ones have been running a couple months less, but they'd cost far less to replace if I had to. However, I do think my big ones are working fully and even if they aren't, my guess is I still have a while before they're saturated. Even my smaller ones in the planters have been grabbing everything with no signs of saturation, plus they have help with pothos planted straight into them and plenums with clay in the tanks as well. I'm still very optimistic that this will work long term, but even if it turns out to be a fraud, I'm not going back to traditional filter media. This clay works way to too well and it's dirt cheap. I'd just start replacing them annually (or however long they do prove to last)


I think we're overestimating how much ammonia stays in the BCBs. I did a fishless cycle in a bare 10 gallon recently. I only had 1 BCB in the tank and an air stone to move the water, and I ended up with 160 ppm Nitrate after 4 weeks. I think it holds ammonia in the BCB only until bacteria can grow inside the BCB to process it. In my experience with absolutely no plants, nitrate reduction begins after 10 weeks. 

I think if you plant the BCBs you probably just feed the plants in a very efficient way, and you could see nitrate reduction right away.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

marten said:


> I think we're overestimating how much ammonia stays in the BCBs. I did a fishless cycle in a bare 10 gallon recently. I only had 1 BCB in the tank and an air stone to move the water, and I ended up with 160 ppm Nitrate after 4 weeks. I think it holds ammonia in the BCB only until bacteria can grow inside the BCB to process it. In my experience with absolutely no plants, nitrate reduction begins after 10 weeks.
> 
> I think if you plant the BCBs you probably just feed the plants in a very efficient way, and you could see nitrate reduction right away.


I'm thinking I may use some terracotta pots and fill them with the BCB mix & root some aquatic plants in them. I'm assuming the plant roots will work OK in the calcined clay & florin base laterite mix?


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Aussieman57 said:


> I'm thinking I may use some terracotta pots and fill them with the BCB mix & root some aquatic plants in them. I'm assuming the plant roots will work OK in the calcined clay & florin base laterite mix?


I like the principle, but I'm not sure terracotta pots expose enough of the clay to be effective as BCBs, but they probably would feed the plants very well if they're able to draw in anything. Definitely an interesting experiment to try. The clay works fine as substrate for the plants. I recently came across a video, unrelated to anoxic filtration, where a guy was using it as his substrate for the whole tank. He didn't have a plenum or anything, just threw it in there like gravel. He didn't comment on pH or how it effected his filtration at all (I doubt he knew to look for any of that), but he had a few plants growing in the tank. He was just showing 'cheap' options for substrates. I'm pretty sure some of mine have rooted down to the clay layer in my plenums and I've seen no ill effects either.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Aussieman57 said:


> I'm thinking I may use some terracotta pots and fill them with the BCB mix & root some aquatic plants in them. I'm assuming the plant roots will work OK in the calcined clay & florin base laterite mix?


I think using a pond style basket would be better than a clay pot, because you want water to access as much surface area of the BCB as possible.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

They sell plant pot shaped baskets for aquaponics that might work.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

I have some clay pots that have elliptical holes in the sides of the pots. They use them for a certain type of plant (can't remember which) according to the wife who is the plant guru.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Aussieman57 said:


> I have some clay pots that have elliptical holes in the sides of the pots. They use them for a certain type of plant (can't remember which) according to the wife who is the plant guru.


I say go for it and let us know how it goes.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

The "plant guru" has informed me that the clay pots with the holes in them are for orchids.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

A little update: BCB Bags initiated on 7/26 initial pH 7.0, Ammonia & Nitrite 0, Nitrates 20 ppm
7/27: pH 7.0, Ammonia & Nitrite 0, Nitrates 20 ppm
7/28: pH 6.8, Ammonia & Nitrite 0, Nitrates 20 ppm
7/29: pH 6.8, Ammonia & Nitrite 0, Nitrates 40 ppm (40% water change)
7/30: pH 7.0, Ammonia & Nitrite 0, Nitrates 20 ppm
7/31: pH 7.2, Ammonia & Nitrite 0, Nitrates 20 ppm (darker orange)
8/1: pH 7.4, Ammonia & Nitrite 0, Nitrates 10 ppm (nice very light orange test started out yellowish)
8/1 Water is Crystal Clear. looks like fish are floating in the air. Plants in tank have REALLY perked up. We are talking bright & darker green leaves on Java Ferns & Anubias. Pothos Roots showing a lot of growth since process started. G. balzanii look like they are getting ready to spawn again. I feel like I woke up to a new tank this morning. Nice to have the pH at 7.4 again where the tanks seem to be at their best. I'm a believer and I am not easily impressed by anything. Quite amazed and pleased as to how well this is working. I have never had this good of a reading on nitrates in any tanks even after a water change (my tap usually has 5ppm or less). I know this nitrate reduction should not be occurring this early???; maybe the improved plant conditions reduced the levels???


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

That's great. Anything I say would be a guess, so just keep going. 

Also, I laughed pretty hard when Dr. Novak's video today came up in my recommended this morning in light of your experiment idea:


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

I used a lot of Florin Based Laterite. Actually too much and had the "Red Cloud Explosion" LOL in the tank which cleared up nicely in 24 hours. I think the laterite is what really perked the plants up. The root growth from the Pothos alone is just a few days is insane.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Aussieman57 said:


> A little update: BCB Bags initiated on 7/26 initial pH 7.0, Ammonia & Nitrite 0, Nitrates 20 ppm
> 7/27: pH 7.0, Ammonia & Nitrite 0, Nitrates 20 ppm
> 7/28: pH 6.8, Ammonia & Nitrite 0, Nitrates 20 ppm
> 7/29: pH 6.8, Ammonia & Nitrite 0, Nitrates 40 ppm (40% water change)
> ...


Nice! Share a "before" and "after" pic if you can. These results are common with AFS. Glad you jumped into it. I am building another tank. Torn between what how tall should I go for .. 18" or 24".


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Rockfella said:


> Nice! Share a "before" and "after" pic if you can. These results are common with AFS. Glad you jumped into it. I am building another tank. Torn between what how tall should I go for .. 18" or 24".


I wish I had gotten a new (or used) 90 gallon instead of sticking with my old 75. It's the oldest tank I still have (originally from the 80's I think) and it just looks like ****. Glass is chipped and scratched everywhere and the person I got it from on craigslist forever ago had let it evaporate dry so the inside has permanent hard water stains you can legit see even when filled. I used to not care because I got it so cheap and kept it legitimately low, low light so it wasn't noticeable, but now that I'm lighting the tank up a lot more, it's bugging me. 
But also, I'm running a plenum and between the UGF and the substrate, the water starts 4 inches off the bottom of the tank. That same height substrate looks fine in the 55, it looks a little odd in the 75 making the tank look a little compressed. If you're running a plenum, I'd go with the 24".


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Rockfella said:


> Nice! Share a "before" and "after" pic if you can. These results are common with AFS. Glad you jumped into it. I am building another tank. Torn between what how tall should I go for .. 18" or 24".


I'll try to post some pics later. I'd personally go for 18" height on smaller tanks and 24 on the bigger.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Before...Very little root growth.








After...Pothos roots extend all the way to substrate.








Even the little Anubias took off and extended roots down to substrate...








Tough to take pics in room during daytime due to glare.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> I wish I had gotten a new (or used) 90 gallon instead of sticking with my old 75. It's the oldest tank I still have (originally from the 80's I think) and it just looks like ****. Glass is chipped and scratched everywhere and the person I got it from on craigslist forever ago had let it evaporate dry so the inside has permanent hard water stains you can legit see even when filled. I used to not care because I got it so cheap and kept it legitimately low, low light so it wasn't noticeable, but now that I'm lighting the tank up a lot more, it's bugging me.
> But also, I'm running a plenum and between the UGF and the substrate, the water starts 4 inches off the bottom of the tank. That same height substrate looks fine in the 55, it looks a little odd in the 75 making the tank look a little compressed. If you're running a plenum, I'd go with the 24".


Exactly my thoughts. I plan to use 10mm glass with Euro and center bracing on top. 12mm is just too heavy to handle.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Aussieman57 said:


> Before...Very little root growth.
> View attachment 143414
> 
> After...Pothos roots extend all the way to substrate.
> ...


Water looks clearer definitely. We have edible clay in my country India. I guess it's a very underrated thing.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Aussieman57 said:


> Before...Very little root growth.
> View attachment 143414
> 
> After...Pothos roots extend all the way to substrate.
> ...


My 135 is in a room with all white walls. Even just the tank light causes too much glare for pictures. I should paint it, but I don't care about pictures of my tanks. 
Your tank is looking good.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

it's hard to see from pictures, but i think i can see the difference in clarity.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> My 135 is in a room with all white walls. Even just the tank light causes too much glare for pictures. I should paint it, but I don't care about pictures of my tanks.
> Your tank is looking good.


Please share pic of your juggernaut bcb if you don't mind.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Rockfella said:


> Please share pic of your juggernaut bcb if you don't mind.


Check post 122. They're in the thumbnail section, but i didn't pull them out and my sump is translucent, not transparent, so it's hard to show scale. The Milk crates are 12"x12"x10". They're filled up to about 6-6.5". There are also pics of my smaller, planted BCBs (those are about 12"x5"x3.5").


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> Check post 122. They're in the thumbnail section, but i didn't pull them out and my sump is translucent, not transparent, so it's hard to show scale. The Milk crates are 12"x12"x10". They're filled up to about 6-6.5". There are also pics of my smaller, planted BCBs (those are about 12"x5"x3.5").


How much clay did you use in that tank, what's the tank size and what's your water turnover?


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Rockfella said:


> How much clay did you use in that tank, what's the tank size and what's your water turnover?


The tank is a 135 reef ready tank with the weirs in the corners. 
There is about 40+ lbs of clay in that tank. The BCBs took up a 33 lbs. bag plus a little bit of a second bag to even them out, probably about 40 lbs. total. There is also a large BCB bag in the Rena Filstar XP3. I didn't weigh that bag, but it's probably a couple pounds.
The sump turnover is 2 pondmaster Mag 7's. I'd estimate that with the head, they combine for about 800-1000 gph as those pumps were finally replaced earlier this year. I haven't ever measured it, but the movement in the tank is strong. The Rena was rated for 350 gph full of media when I got it 12 years ago. It still goes strong, but I doubt it's that strong after all these years (all original parts). Similarly the water bottle filter is powered by a maxijet 1200 that has been doing that for at least 10 years. All combined, it's gotta be between 1,250 gph and 1,500 gph. There is also an UGF that's 4'x1' being run by a whisper 10 with the flow regulator turned down to just barely making bubbles. No clay in that plenum though.

I'm not sure how much the planted BCBs in the 55 and 75 weigh, but I wasn't quite able to make them and their plenums and the plenums for the 20 and 10 with the remaining roughly 25 lbs and had to get another bag that is sitting in my fish room 1/2 full. I went a little heavier with clay in the 10 and 20 gallon plenums since they don't have BCBs.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> The tank is a 135 reef ready tank with the weirs in the corners.
> There is about 40+ lbs of clay in that tank. The BCBs took up a 33 lbs. bag plus a little bit of a second bag to even them out, probably about 40 lbs. total. There is also a large BCB bag in the Rena Filstar XP3. I didn't weigh that bag, but it's probably a couple pounds.
> The sump turnover is 2 pondmaster Mag 7's. I'd estimate that with the head, they combine for about 800-1000 gph as those pumps were finally replaced earlier this year. I haven't ever measured it, but the movement in the tank is strong. The Rena was rated for 350 gph full of media when I got it 12 years ago. It still goes strong, but I doubt it's that strong after all these years (all original parts). Similarly the water bottle filter is powered by a maxijet 1200 that has been doing that for at least 10 years. All combined, it's gotta be between 1,250 gph and 1,500 gph. There is also an UGF that's 4'x1' being run by a whisper 10 with the flow regulator turned down to just barely making bubbles. No clay in that plenum though.
> 
> I'm not sure how much the planted BCBs in the 55 and 75 weigh, but I wasn't quite able to make them and their plenums and the plenums for the 20 and 10 with the remaining roughly 25 lbs and had to get another bag that is sitting in my fish room 1/2 full. I went a little heavier with clay in the 10 and 20 gallon plenums since they don't have BCBs.


Impressive. You went all out. I'm thinking of ways to fire clay because cheap bentonite clay granules (clumping kitty litter) is available on my country. One guy posted a video in YouTube on this. This time I don't want to build a large overhead sump. My main tank is around 70g with around 25lbs of oildri in BCB. That sump itself weighs more than 100 lbs (when filled with water) and sits on top of my wooden canopy i built myself. Thers is a cheap canister filter available here (DoPhin C1600) and i was thinking of stuffing clay in mesh bags in it. Could you have a look at it and suggest how I could make the water go "around the bags" in it. It's fairly powerful but has both in and out in the top unlike the Eheim classic 600 which is great for bcbs but is twice the cost and less than half the gph.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> The tank is a 135 reef ready tank with the weirs in the corners.
> There is about 40+ lbs of clay in that tank. The BCBs took up a 33 lbs. bag plus a little bit of a second bag to even them out, probably about 40 lbs. total. There is also a large BCB bag in the Rena Filstar XP3. I didn't weigh that bag, but it's probably a couple pounds.
> The sump turnover is 2 pondmaster Mag 7's. I'd estimate that with the head, they combine for about 800-1000 gph as those pumps were finally replaced earlier this year. I haven't ever measured it, but the movement in the tank is strong. The Rena was rated for 350 gph full of media when I got it 12 years ago. It still goes strong, but I doubt it's that strong after all these years (all original parts). Similarly the water bottle filter is powered by a maxijet 1200 that has been doing that for at least 10 years. All combined, it's gotta be between 1,250 gph and 1,500 gph. There is also an UGF that's 4'x1' being run by a whisper 10 with the flow regulator turned down to just barely making bubbles. No clay in that plenum though.
> 
> I'm not sure how much the planted BCBs in the 55 and 75 weigh, but I wasn't quite able to make them and their plenums and the plenums for the 20 and 10 with the remaining roughly 25 lbs and had to get another bag that is sitting in my fish room 1/2 full. I went a little heavier with clay in the 10 and 20 gallon plenums since they don't have BCBs.


Wow. Impressive. Do you think that amount of clay is absolutely necessary?


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Rockfella said:


> Impressive. You went all out. I'm thinking of ways to fire clay because cheap bentonite clay granules (clumping kitty litter) is available on my country. One guy posted a video in YouTube on this. This time I don't want to build a large overhead sump. My main tank is around 70g with around 25lbs of oildri in BCB. That sump itself weighs more than 100 lbs (when filled with water) and sits on top of my wooden canopy i built myself. Thers is a cheap canister filter available here (DoPhin C1600) and i was thinking of stuffing clay in mesh bags in it. Could you have a look at it and suggest how I could make the water go "around the bags" in it. It's fairly powerful but has both in and out in the top unlike the Eheim classic 600 which is great for bcbs but is twice the cost and less than half the gph.


Yeah the overhead sumps required me to install high strength shelves and mount them into the studs. But I did that like 5 years ago. There is very little 'new' equipment in my fish room, except the UGFs, a few small air pumps and some new hoses on all the sumps. Most of the filters and pumps have been running for at least 5 years, except the new Mag 7's and the SunSun 302 on the 75 is only a couple years old. I used to have a lot more tanks running, so I have a ton of equipment laying around. 


Aussieman57 said:


> Wow. Impressive. Do you think that amount of clay is absolutely necessary?


No. Definitely not. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's the reason I got the rare pH plunge at first (stabilized itself in a few weeks). I just wanted to use the space I had and this is what I came up with to maximize that. I'm terrible about overkill. When I messaged Dr. Novak about my pH and how much clay I used he was pretty shocked and I basically got the 'well there's your problem' reaction. But he assured me it would stabilize and it did. I don't think it's hurting anything having them be so large and I think it may have helped in creating an anoxic zone inside the BCBs, but who knows.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

I finished setting up and planting the 10 gallon last weekend and decided to let the plants settle in before putting in the betta and african dwarf frogs my wife wants. Yesterday I picked up a dozen feeder ghost shrimp and dropped them in (after drip acclimation). They're doing well so far, but I'm sure some won't make it since they were treated like feeders and a couple are a little milky. Otherwise, there were a couple snails that came in with the plants, look like bladder snails, but still tiny. Plenum + corner box filter working well so far. I'm gonna set up some CO2 for the first time since it's so heavily planted and I'd like to avoid algae if possible. I'm seeing a few nitrates in that tank, but I'm assuming it's because I fertilized (one spurt of easygreen). I never saw ammonia or nitrites and the nitrates only showed up after the first fert and are still under 10 ppm. Pothos clippings I cut have started growing new roots, so they'll go in this week. 

Also upgrading the very cheap lighting on my 55 and 75. I ordered one of those Hygger 24/7 lights and I'm gonna put that on the 55. I'll take the cheap generic LED from there and double it up with the same generic one already on the 75, so it'll at least be better, but that tank looks like **** so it's mostly for the plants.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

The 10 gallon is not going as smoothly as the other tanks went. The plants are settling in well and the shrimp seem fine, but I'm getting a fair amount of nitrates. I seeded the corner filter with a little gravel from the 135 when I set it up and I think it is doing most of the biological as I actually got a tiny reading for nitrites earlier this week (wc took care of that and haven't seen them since). This may be the tank I have to wait and see the results. Figures it would be the one with the most plants, lol. The other tanks I made sure NOT to seed the filters with BB (I just seeded the substrate a tiny bit) and I think it was a mistake to stray from that this time. I also think the layer of sand on top of the substrate is keeping more of the waste in the water column. 

I'm hooking up CO2 to this tank this weekend, anyone used it before? Any tips? I figure after 35+ years keeping tanks it's time I finally stopped making excuses and tried it. I don't plan to run it to 30 ppm, just enough to help the plants utilize more of the lights and nutrients. Figure I'll start it on a bubble every 4 or 5 seconds and see how that works.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> The 10 gallon is not going as smoothly as the other tanks went. The plants are settling in well and the shrimp seem fine, but I'm getting a fair amount of nitrates. I seeded the corner filter with a little gravel from the 135 when I set it up and I think it is doing most of the biological as I actually got a tiny reading for nitrites earlier this week (wc took care of that and haven't seen them since). This may be the tank I have to wait and see the results. Figures it would be the one with the most plants, lol. The other tanks I made sure NOT to seed the filters with BB (I just seeded the substrate a tiny bit) and I think it was a mistake to stray from that this time. I also think the layer of sand on top of the substrate is keeping more of the waste in the water column.
> 
> I'm hooking up CO2 to this tank this weekend, anyone used it before? Any tips? I figure after 35+ years keeping tanks it's time I finally stopped making excuses and tried it. I don't plan to run it to 30 ppm, just enough to help the plants utilize more of the lights and nutrients. Figure I'll start it on a bubble every 4 or 5 seconds and see how that works.


Try with very low dosage... Just like your airlift tube barely pushing bubbles. Small tanks are almost always problematic.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Yeah that's the plan. I have a solenoid and bubble checker, so I'm gonna run it from about an hour before the lights come on until about 2 hours before they go out and only run it at a bubble every 4-5 seconds and go from there. Thanks. 

And **** yeah on the small tanks, but that's where my mind has been since this has been going so well. Until I converted, my 20 gallon was always a pain (still has the most algae, but doing real well otherwise) and this 10 hadn't been set up in years because it was always an algae bomb. Trying to avoid that this time. I've been reading and watching a lot of vids on nano planted tanks, because I've NEVER gotten them to work in my life and would like to. I'm considering a few true nano as well, God help me. I just realized I have a perfect space for a little 3 gallon I've had sitting on the shelf for years (I actually have 5 tanks/bowls between 2 and 5 gallons because I've gotten 4 of them as presents over the years, but 3 are plastic. Usually use them as holding tanks for a day or few hours). I'm gonna build a UGF/plenum for it with some light diffuser and mesh I have sitting around with an extra standpipe. Should be pretty simple. I'm thinking a dwarf crayfish or maybe a few shrimp.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Check this stuff out. Laterite based substrate. Not cheap but may be easier to work with than powder versions.








Amazon.com : Oliver Knott AQUALAT Power Plant Growth, 7 L, Orange : Pet Supplies


Amazon.com : Oliver Knott AQUALAT Power Plant Growth, 7 L, Orange : Pet Supplies



www.amazon.com


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

So what do you guys think? Think this product will work OK? I emailed Dr. Novak and he stated he was going to check it out. I also ran the idea of using plastic box filters to make small BCB's for 5-20 gallon tanks that I keep in. Anyone done this yet?


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Aussieman57 said:


> So what do you guys think? Think this product will work OK? I emailed Dr. Novak and he stated he was going to check it out. I also ran the idea of using plastic box filters to make small BCB's for 5-20 gallon tanks that I keep in. Anyone done this yet?


It's laterite. It'll work.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Looks good to me. I was hoping you were trying it out, lol.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> Looks good to me. I was hoping you were trying it out, lol.


In the process of ordering some.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Did a test strip on the 10 gallon earlier, 0 nitrites, 0 nitrates. I'm 100% certain it's the plants and lack of fertilizer. No way the plenum just did this after the earlier results in this tank. I went ahead and fertilized. The CO2 has been on the tank since Sunday morning (it's at about 1 bubble every 4 seconds, so really not cranked up). I think I actually do see a tiny difference, but I'd be surprised if it weren't more from the tank cycling. I went ahead and fed the ghost shrimp too. They have a few dead leaves I left in the tank to pick on, but figured it can't hurt too much now that the tank is cycled traditionally at a minimum. There are enough plants in this tank that I really may not see much in the way of nitrates even as the plenum cycles, but I guess we'll see when the fish and frogs are in it.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Haha, I thought my 12 year old AC50 was crapping out on me. Silly me. Those things don't die, just a clog I somehow couldn't see. I had an AC500 I bought in 1990 that only died like 5 years ago because I dropped it during cleaning. I shouldn't have lost faith so quickly.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Aussieman57 said:


> Check this stuff out. Laterite based substrate. Not cheap but may be easier to work with than powder versions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


AquaLat made in Australia can this be the answer to replacing the Laterite clay powders? - YouTube

Here we go.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Rockfella said:


> AquaLat made in Australia can this be the answer to replacing the Laterite clay powders? - YouTube
> 
> Here we go.


Well, I'm glad I contacted him about this product. Did not expect him to produce a video about it so quickly. He even mentioned me by first name in the introduction of the product. I've got mine and am getting ready to use it.😎


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Have now gotten my nitrates down to 5ppm. Was never able to previously get lower than 10 ppm.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Aussieman57 said:


> So what do you guys think? Think this product will work OK? I emailed Dr. Novak and he stated he was going to check it out. I also ran the idea of using plastic box filters to make small BCB's for 5-20 gallon tanks that I keep in. Anyone done this yet?


I use a small basket in a 10G with only an air stone to move the water around it. It works just as well as my sump lol. Doesn’t look that great though. 

I find a plenum is much nicer for a small tank. But if it’s used as a utility tank I just use the basket / air stone method. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

marten said:


> I use a small basket in a 10G with only an air stone to move the water around it. It works just as well as my sump lol. Doesn’t look that great though.
> 
> I find a plenum is much nicer for a small tank. But if it’s used as a utility tank I just use the basket / air stone method.
> 
> ...


Any pics of that small basket with airstone? Where do you place the air stone in relation to the basket?


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Aussieman57 said:


> Any pics of that small basket with airstone? Where do you place the air stone in relation to the basket?


I won't win any awards for aesthetics but this is what it looks like. I don't think it matters where you place the air stone because the clay will draw ions into itself. A little bit of water movement just helps.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

marten said:


> I won't win any awards for aesthetics but this is what it looks like. I don't think it matters where you place the air stone because the clay will draw ions into itself. A little bit of water movement just helps.


Got it. Nice. I've got some large box filters coming from Jehmco that I'm going to rig up.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Nice, I used very similar 'pencil baskets' in my planted sumps. I like the use of the mesh bag to allow for holding even more. Yeah, that tank is going to stay ammonia free with a BCB that large in a 10 gallon, lol. Brilliant plan honestly for a holding tank.

I just found snails in my 135 sump, smh. Cichlids are gonna eat them until I can't find anymore.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

I used three of those baskets for my 40G long Saulosi tank. All the filtration is internal, and I went with baskets instead of a plenum because I wanted a lot of rocks. 

I found some large flat saw cut basalt pieces for the bottom of the tank, and I sprinkled about 2 cups of white pool filter sand between the flat rocks just to cover the glass. I put the three BCBs near the back of the tank with gaps behind them and also between them. Then i stacked smaller basalt rocks in front and on top of the BCBs. I have a wave-maker to move water and a small Ehiem skimmer in the corner but nothing else for filtration. You can see one of the baskets in the second image.

I precycled the BCBs before setting up the tank, and they're just passing the 10 week mark now. The tank is holding at about 5ppm nitrates before weekly 30% water change. I have 8 adult Saulosi, and I hope increase the numbers a bit with offspring over time.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Another great idea and well done on the execution, tank looks fantastic. And I'm glad you posted this tank, because I'm considering setting up my first African Cichlid tank in decades. I just need a few weeks to wear down the wife into 'letting me' set up another tank. I'm probably going to copy you on this, haha.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

neverenoughtanks said:


> Another great idea and well done on the execution, tank looks fantastic. And I'm glad you posted this tank, because I'm considering setting up my first African Cichlid tank in decades. I just need a few weeks to wear down the wife into 'letting me' set up another tank. I'm probably going to copy you on this, haha.


Thanks! I might still need some kind of mechanical filtration, but so far I’m easily able to siphon up the debris when I’m changing water.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Yeah, I'll probably run a couple HOBs I already have, but I don't want to build a new sump or buy another canister, since this will not be in a good spot for it. I'll probably set up a plenum and then hide a couple BCBs in the rock work with the Aquaclears on the back for mechanical. I'll probably have the HOBs dump back in above the BCBs to help the flow around them. This got me thinking about a lot of possibilities. Wonderful job hiding the baskets.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

It’s really quite easy to stack the rockwork around the baskets, but I spent a good half hour picking through rocks at the landscape supply place to find the right shaped rocks. 

Good idea with the hobs and the plenum too!


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Just made some more BCB bags using the AquaLat laterite chunks. Using the AquaLat vs the Florin Based Laterite Powder is like night & day. Making BCB bags with the AquaLat is a breeze compared to the powder form. My 55 gallon sump now has 12 BCB bags. Wish I had found the AquaLat sooner.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

marten said:


> I used three of those baskets for my 40G long Saulosi tank. All the filtration is internal, and I went with baskets instead of a plenum because I wanted a lot of rocks.
> 
> I found some large flat saw cut basalt pieces for the bottom of the tank, and I sprinkled about 2 cups of white pool filter sand between the flat rocks just to cover the glass. I put the three BCBs near the back of the tank with gaps behind them and also between them. Then i stacked smaller basalt rocks in front and on top of the BCBs. I have a wave-maker to move water and a small Ehiem skimmer in the corner but nothing else for filtration. You can see one of the baskets in the second image.
> 
> ...


Truck loads of rocks lol. Thought of increasing water level? I just don't like to see the water level + when hidden water column looks bigger/taller. I love your aquarium "stand".


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

marten said:


> I won't win any awards for aesthetics but this is what it looks like. I don't think it matters where you place the air stone because the clay will draw ions into itself. A little bit of water movement just helps.


Possible to raise the basket by 1/2"?


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Rockfella said:


> Possible to raise the basket by 1/2"?


Yeah I drilled holes in the bottom of the basket. You’re totally right about that. I guess I’ll use some bio rings I don’t use anymore to prop it up at the corners. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Rockfella said:


> Truck loads of rocks lol. Thought of increasing water level? I just don't like to see the water level + when hidden water column looks bigger/taller. I love your aquarium "stand".


Eventually I’ll build a proper stand and canopy for it. The canopy will come down a bit to hide the water line. 

The rocks take up about 10 gallons of water. I’ve rearranged them a bit since then to open up the little passages a bit wider for the fish. It doesn’t look as nice, but I found they were fighting in the narrow spots a bit too much. 

I find it’s better if they can see behind themselves. 


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

marten said:


> Eventually I’ll build a proper stand and canopy for it. The canopy will come down a bit to hide the water line.
> The rocks take up about 10 gallons of water. I’ve rearranged them a bit since then to open up the little passages a bit wider for the fish. It doesn’t look as nice, but I found they were fighting in the narrow spots a bit too much.
> I find it’s better if they can see behind themselves.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The base looks great! I would not change a thing.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Rockfella said:


> The base looks great! I would not change a thing.


Yeah, I'm happy with the base, as it's almost a substrate free tank. As a anoxic filtration concept it also works very well. I'm finding the downside is it being a bit too restrictive having to hide the baskets, so I'm considering this a work in progress for now. I may end up going with your overhead sump idea, or else repackaging the BCBs in different size/shape containers.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

marten said:


> Yeah, I'm happy with the base, as it's almost a substrate free tank. As a anoxic filtration concept it also works very well. I'm finding the downside is it being a bit too restrictive having to hide the baskets, so I'm considering this a work in progress for now. I may end up going with your overhead sump idea, or else repackaging the BCBs in different size/shape containers.


Top sump for bcb needs a lot of work and nobody likes it 🤣 .. as in aesthetically. I consider it a cheap way to house bcbs and depend on gravity for filtration instead of overflow hoopla.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

I don't mind how my top sumps look now that they have a lot of pothos growing out of the BCBs, but yeah. I have seen people build large canopies that hide them well and then obviously you don't have to worry about that issue.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

marten said:


> Yeah, I'm happy with the base, as it's almost a substrate free tank. As a anoxic filtration concept it also works very well. I'm finding the downside is it being a bit too restrictive having to hide the baskets, so I'm considering this a work in progress for now. I may end up going with your overhead sump idea, or else repackaging the BCBs in different size/shape containers.


19mm ply blocks holds everything on top. This is the only thing that sits on vertical panes without touching the braces.


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## Sasquatchv (4 mo ago)

I have tested anoxic filtration in 2 forms in 2005-2010.
Form one was improvised canister filter with udersized basket filled with expanded clay aggregate (poor man's bio media). 10l total and 6l media capacities if I remember right with flow rate of 150l/h.
Took a month to kick in, and a 5h power cut to kill whole tank. I was at work, came back to all fish dead and hint of sewage smell.
Ammonia level was off the scale too.

Form 2 was 120x20x20cm(lxwd) "sump" filled with same media to 15cm and water flowing on top.
Worked well, and simulated 8h power cut didn't turn it into anaerobic killzone. But stopped working after 18 months.

Converted it to bottom flow wicking hydroponics and grew devils ivy(pothos) and lettuce. Tank required nitrate free fertiliser after 4-6 months. This run stable for 2+years. With 3 Oscars, gibbiceps, pangae catfish and armatulus my nitrate grew 10ppm a month in the summer and 20-25 ppm in the winter. Grow lamp for the plants would improve that.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Sasquatchv said:


> I have tested anoxic filtration in 2 forms in 2005-2010.
> Form one was improvised canister filter with udersized basket filled with expanded clay aggregate (poor man's bio media). 10l total and 6l media capacities if I remember right with flow rate of 150l/h.
> Took a month to kick in, and a 5h power cut to kill whole tank. I was at work, came back to all fish dead and hint of sewage smell.
> Ammonia level was off the scale too.
> ...


LECA is not recommended for AFS + your flow rate of 150l/h sounds way too slow. YDNDIT. (You did not do it right)


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## Sasquatchv (4 mo ago)

Rockfella said:


> LECA is not recommended for AFS + your flow rate of 150l/h sounds way too slow. YDNDIT. (You did not do it right)


That was before anyone heard of "PhD"* Novak, at least in Poland. General consensus was normal bio media and flow 1/3 tank volume.
If Novak's claims of 20year old media are true my failure was due to iron shortage in anoxic zone. Iron and whatever else trace elements are in laterite could prolong bacteria colony life beyond 18months in my experiments. 
I'm disappointed that Auballagh didn't include laterite in his test. 

*I can't find any peer reviewed publications of Mr Novak's work, which would be required for PhD. Given huge following, my own tests and amount of voices confirming his method. I'm saying he might be onto something, but his PhD is questionable. You can try to contact him for peer reviewed publications link, expect abuse and lawsuit threats.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Oh, I hear you @Sasquatchv - I've definitely got a few doubts about this thing myself! Which (despite all of the positive hyperbole going into this thing) is why I've decided to put this thing to, The Test - and have involved NO living things whatsoever in this test process.
And trust me on this - I have NO agenda or any intention of 'leading the witness' or any other such thing. And, if this Anoxic Filtration process ultimately fails in my little test? So be it!
And yes, as 'pure' and simple as I could make it, The Test will be purely about that _FIRED CALCINED CLAY_ and it's effects on removing Ammonia from the water of the aquarium system.
As for the Laterite vs. Turface thing? I got curious and did some research on the actual composition of the Turface I'm using.
Turface composition,

Silicon dioxide: 74.0%
Aluminum oxide: 11.0%
Iron oxide: 5.0%

Laterite composition, has widely varying Iron proportions in its composition due to locality specific sourcing.
But Laterite will also source out primarily as Silicon dioxide, aluminum hydroxide and ferric hydroxide, with trace amounts of manganese. So Laterite probably/usually has a higher Iron percentage in it's composition (esp. the 'Aqualat' that @Aussieman57 is using and recommended). But, with the exception of the different Iron percentages found in various localities when sourcing the Laterite, both sources of _FIRED CALCINED CLAY_ have virtually the same components as each other


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Sasquatchv said:


> That was before anyone heard of "PhD"* Novak, at least in Poland. General consensus was normal bio media and flow 1/3 tank volume.
> I'm disappointed that Auballagh didn't include laterite in his test.
> 
> *I can't find any peer reviewed publications of Mr Novak's work, which would be required for PhD. Given huge following, my own tests and amount of voices confirming his method. I'm saying he might be onto something, but his PhD is questionable. You can try to contact him for peer reviewed publications link, expect abuse and lawsuit threats.


Please help me understand why you are questioning the validity of his doctorate degree.
"You can try to contact him for peer reviewed publications link, expect abuse and lawsuit threats." I have spoken to him before, specifically about the AquaLat products which I introduced him to. he was very cordial, informative and receptive to new ideas. Not sure why you would brand him as litigious just because you can't find peer reviews of his work.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Auballagh said:


> Oh, I hear you @Sasquatchv - I've definitely got a few doubts about this thing myself! Which (despite all of the positive hyperbole going into this thing) is why I've decided to put this thing to, The Test - and have involved NO living things whatsoever in this test process.
> And trust me on this - I have NO agenda or any intention of 'leading the witness' or any other such thing. And, if this thing ultimately fails in my little test? So be it!
> And yes, as 'pure' and simple as I could make it, The Test will be purely about that _FIRED CALCINED CLAY_ and it's effects on removing Ammonia from the water of the aquarium system.
> As for the Laterite vs. Turface thing? I got curious and did some research on the actual composition of the Turface I'm using.
> ...


You should include the laterite in this testing. Put it together the way it was designed to see how it actually works. Just my 2 cents.


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## Sasquatchv (4 mo ago)

Auballagh said:


> Oh, I hear you @Sasquatchv - I've definitely got a few doubts about this thing myself! Which (despite all of the positive hyperbole going into this thing) is why I've decided to put this thing to, The Test - and have involved NO living things whatsoever in this test process.
> And trust me on this - I have NO agenda or any intention of 'leading the witness' or any other such thing. And, if this thing ultimately fails in my little test? So be it!
> And yes, as 'pure' and simple as I could make it, The Test will be purely about that _FIRED CALCINED CLAY_ and it's effects on removing Ammonia from the water of the aquarium system.
> As for the Laterite vs. Turface thing? I got curious and did some research on the actual composition of the Turface I'm using.
> ...


Great research on your part. Can't wait to se the test results.

@Aussieman57 Auballagh in his post presented more sientific approach and methology than I could find in 6h of mr Novak's videos. His painfully non specific videos made me try and look for some proper papers in hope they would have more "texture" to them. I'm not the only one who got quite angry response from him for simply asking for publications other than his own book to cite him in uni/college project.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Okay. @Aussieman57 I can see that point. And yes, maybe is IS the higher Iron content in the Laterite that enables the Anoxic Filtration process?
-
So, let's run this thing out first with the Turface and see where it goes. Good? Bad? Indifferent? We'll have to see how that stuff actually stacks up. And then, a follow up comparison type test?
Sure! Why not?
And well.... it looks I'll be getting some bags of that Aqualat you recommended after all. Jeeeze.... ($$$) how many bags of Aqualat do you think I'm gonna need to fill up all four of those pond baskets with that stuff?


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## Sasquatchv (4 mo ago)

Why not scale down to one basket? Besides laterite should go only in the centre of the basket, surrounded by hydrous aluminum silicate calcined clay like calcium bentonite (cat litter).
Novak's method mentions ammonia kations attraction by the clay.
Bentonite clay(Montmorillonite) carries negative ionic charge. That would fit in the Novak's theorum, but(there's always one)
Clay firing or caciniation at too high temperature removes all OH groups from the clay giving us clay more stable in water used as non clumping cat litter and turface(and bonsai substrate).
Big BUT is that calcination besides reducing absorbtion capability it also balances ionic charge of the clay negating ionic attraction of ammonia.
I do belive cat litter is calcined at lower temperature to get product that is not clumping with maximum possible fluids absorpion leaving some negative charge.
Turface and similiat products if fired at higher temperatures and/or for longer may be completely ionic charge free and unsuitable for anoxic process.

Unless we forget aionic attroaction of the clay and stick to good old ion dispersion laws and stick to: "anoxic bacteria needs iron from laterite to thrive". In which case iron rich turface will work just as good.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

I think we need 100 grams of laterite each in those baskets of yours @Auballagh . Laterite is only to assist initial bacteria population. Dr. Novak is now testing how the BCBS work without laterite as it is hard to find almost everywhere.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

I'm gonna be honest, my biggest hesitations with trying this system were Dr. Novak and his communication skills. His videos tend to ramble, he doesn't always come back to the actual point and he skips details. He is very friendly when asking advice or discussing experiments, but I have heard stories of him biting people's heads off when challenged. I was also put off as a fan when he went after Cory from Aquarium Co-Op for basically nothing (I'm still seeing response videos, as recently as this morning from KGTropicals, for that one). He's also a bit of a crank when he gets onto topics he's not an expert in.
All that said, the reason I was willing to try this is because it utilizes the exact same equipment as 'tradtional' filtration. Converting back would be very simple, though I have no plans to do so now, as Dr. Novak's system is working very well for me. But also, because it's basically regular filtration with different media, I don't think this system is any more susceptible to total collapse than traditional systems either. The BCBs provide less surface area for aerobic BB sure, but you're still going to have a huge colony as is present in any 'normal' tank (not to mention the sponges or whatever you're using for mechanical before the BCBs). If that collapses, it's not because of the AFS, something else is wrong. Even if the clay didn't attract and take in ammonium (it does, but let's say it stops at some point) you're just using your filter space a little less efficiently than normal for aerobic BB. But there is nothing here that will 'collapse' and cause ammonia spikes any more readily than regular media. The anoxic bacteria could all die and you'd just see the return of nitrates, not ammonia. Plenums don't even lose that surface area efficiency and you can simply up the flow if it's not working for anoxic and you want to utilize it as a regular UGF. In my experience, it works, but it has been less than a year still and I do still check water parameters regularly to make sure everything is stable. If I ever do have some sort of collapse, this thread will be updated immediately.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

@neverenoughtanks I would have to agree, and I also read that there was some negative history with an old YT channel he had. But in my working life, as i get older, I learned it's best not to discount an idea just because the person isn't presenting their idea in the way I want to hear it. Anoxic filtration will work or not work despite whatever Dr Novak or anyone else says about it.

@Auballagh I also think a proper test has to include the use of an iron source. I don't think you will get meaningful nitrate reduction without it, except for the initial absorption of ammonia from the clay. After it's saturated i don't think it will take any more in, and at that point it will start to function in a similar way to normal aerobic media.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Sasquatchv said:


> Great research on your part. Can't wait to se the test results.
> 
> @Aussieman57 Auballagh in his post presented more sientific approach and methology than I could find in 6h of mr Novak's videos. His painfully non specific videos made me try and look for some proper papers in hope they would have more "texture" to them. I'm not the only one who got quite angry response from him for simply asking for publications other than his own book to cite him in uni/college project.


Well, looking into this I feel I owe you an apology. I didn't realize that he had lashed out at people for challenging his methodology. The BCB bags I've employed in my sump are working well. Even though it may be too early for the anaerobes to be eating nitrates, my nitrate levels in my 125 gallon are down to 5ppm. Previously I could never get this tank below 20ppm. My theory is that the BCB is absorbing so much ammonia that few nitrates are being produced.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> I'm gonna be honest, my biggest hesitations with trying this system were Dr. Novak and his communication skills. His videos tend to ramble, he doesn't always come back to the actual point and he skips details. He is very friendly when asking advice or discussing experiments, but I have heard stories of him biting people's heads off when challenged. I was also put off as a fan when he went after Cory from Aquarium Co-Op for basically nothing (I'm still seeing response videos, as recently as this morning from KGTropicals, for that one). He's also a bit of a crank when he gets onto topics he's not an expert in.
> All that said, the reason I was willing to try this is because it utilizes the exact same equipment as 'tradtional' filtration. Converting back would be very simple, though I have no plans to do so now, as Dr. Novak's system is working very well for me. But also, because it's basically regular filtration with different media, I don't think this system is any more susceptible to total collapse than traditional systems either. The BCBs provide less surface area for aerobic BB sure, but you're still going to have a huge colony as is present in any 'normal' tank (not to mention the sponges or whatever you're using for mechanical before the BCBs). If that collapses, it's not because of the AFS, something else is wrong. Even if the clay didn't attract and take in ammonium (it does, but let's say it stops at some point) you're just using your filter space a little less efficiently than normal for aerobic BB. But there is nothing here that will 'collapse' and cause ammonia spikes any more readily than regular media. The anoxic bacteria could all die and you'd just see the return of nitrates, not ammonia. Plenums don't even lose that surface area efficiency and you can simply up the flow if it's not working for anoxic and you want to utilize it as a regular UGF. In my experience, it works, but it has been less than a year still and I do still check water parameters regularly to make sure everything is stable. If I ever do have some sort of collapse, this thread will be updated immediately.


He's never been rude to me and has replied to almost all my naive emails regularly. I've seen posts of him in old threads dating back to 2007 in forums willing to send free cds to people across the globe for free. Many have stated their bcbs stopped working after 2 years. Even if the clay stops working after 1/2 years I will probably just replace clay. A friend of mine has a barbeque set. I'll buy clumping bentonite cat litter and try to roast it for regular cheap supply of "fired clay". Another thing I've noticed is no ghastly smell in any of my tanks and no white sticky slime anywhere in the tanks with this system and the best part: No tank cycling needed lol.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Hmmmm.... The Iron/Laterite thing.


Rockfella said:


> I think we need 100 grams of laterite each in those baskets of yours


Okay. As big as those pond baskets are that I'm using for this, that would be a very partial amount of media indeed. So, do you recommend just mixing in 100 grams+ (at least) of the Laterite based stuff with the Turface?
Ideally, so we can see the results of a real Turface vs. Laterite comparison, I'd like to just use pure Laterite in those big Pond Baskets for the next planned test run. But, depending on just how expensive this 'Aqualat' stuff is ($$$) I may be mixing it in with Turface to fill those pond baskets up completely with media.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Auballagh said:


> Hmmmm.... The Iron/Laterite thing.
> Okay. As big as those pond baskets are that I'm using for this, that would be a very partial amount of media indeed. So, do you recommend just mixing in 100 grams+ (at least) of the Laterite based stuff with the Turface?
> Ideally, so we can see the results of a real Turface vs. Laterite comparison, I'd like to just use pure Laterite in those big Pond Baskets for the next planned test run. But, depending on just how expensive this 'Aqualat' stuff is ($$$) I may be mixing it in with Turface to fill those pond baskets up completely with media.


Sorry I was wrong. Recommended laterite for 30cm x 30cm x 20cm basket : 400 grams. I guess you will need 200 grams per your basket as you have round ones. My initial bcbs were set without laterite. I now have JBL Florapol (Iron fert) never got hold of laterite. How long do you intend to run those test baskets? It may take months for it to do nitrate reduction.


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## Sasquatchv (4 mo ago)

Rockfella you need to bake it above 450 Celsius, will barbecue go that high?
Electric motor rewind companies tend to have burn off ovens that go up to 800C.
At this point spillage absorbent may be better option than baking clumping litter.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Sasquatchv said:


> Rockfella you need to bake it above 450 Celsius, will barbecue go that high?
> Electric motor rewind companies tend to have burn off ovens that go up to 800C.
> At this point spillage absorbent may be better option than baking clumping litter.


I have tried a lot I can't find clay based industrial absorbents online in my country India. I am sure it is available here offline. I got 4 bags of Oil-Dri 8lbs for $35 each thinking it as a one time fish hobby investment lol. I will try whatever I can. Thanks for the inputs


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

How long to run this test?
That depends, and was never really decided up front. The primary intention of the test all along was to determine the actual effect of the _FIRED CALCINED CLAY_ against Ammonia. Getting things to the Nitrate reduction part was probably not gonna happen, if the Turface just wound up eating all of the Ammonia added to the system anyway.
So, to be completely sure how that Turface reacts to the Ammonia, I plan to keep the test process going for two weeks. That should be more than long enough to see if the Turface I'm using will eliminate the Ammonia from the aquarium system, but not long enough to begin building a colony of beneficial bacteria in there.
This test was always about determining just how effective the _FIRED CALCINED CLAY_ was (when used completely alone) in removing that Ammonia from the water.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Auballagh said:


> How long to run this test?
> That depends, and was never really decided up front. The primary intention of the test all along was to determine the actual effect of the _FIRED CALCINED CLAY_ against Ammonia. Getting things to the Nitrate reduction part was probably not gonna happen, if the Turface just wound up eating all of the Ammonia added to the system anyway.
> So, to be completely sure how that Turface reacts to the Ammonia, I plan to keep the test process going for two weeks. That should be more than long enough to see if the Turface I'm using will eliminate the Ammonia from the aquarium system, but not long enough to begin building a colony of beneficial bacteria in there.
> This test was always about determining just how effective the _FIRED CALCINED CLAY_ was (when used completely alone) in removing that Ammonia from the water.


Then I would just proceed as you had originally planned. Just use the _FIRED CALCINED CLAY_ and let's see what happens over 2 weeks.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Auballagh said:


> How long to run this test?
> That depends, and was never really decided up front. The primary intention of the test all along was to determine the actual effect of the _FIRED CALCINED CLAY_ against Ammonia. Getting things to the Nitrate reduction part was probably not gonna happen, if the Turface just wound up eating all of the Ammonia added to the system anyway.
> So, to be completely sure how that Turface reacts to the Ammonia, I plan to keep the test process going for two weeks. That should be more than long enough to see if the Turface I'm using will eliminate the Ammonia from the aquarium system, but not long enough to begin building a colony of beneficial bacteria in there.
> This test was always about determining just how effective the _FIRED CALCINED CLAY_ was (when used completely alone) in removing that Ammonia from the water.


Ohk cool


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Sounds good!
So, the test with that Turface in those pond baskets will run out until 1 October/22. By that point, I will have purchased and (hopefully) gotten in some bags of that 'Aqualat'. And with the preps and work completed to set up this new stuff, we'll then shut down the Turface setup. That will consist of a full clean and flush of the aquarium system, of all that old water... Followed by a re-fill with a fresh supply of my dechlorinated tap water - then a 'lock & load' with more dosed Ammonia! Once the dosed Ammonia stabilizes in the aquarium system, will again place in four of those big pond baskets with the (more iron heavy) 'Aqualat', to begin TEST 2 of the Anoxic Filtration Process.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Auballagh said:


> Sounds good!
> So, the test with that Turface in those pond baskets will run out until 1 October/22. By that point, I will have purchased and (hopefully) gotten in some bags of that 'Aqualat'. And with the preps and work completed to set up this new stuff, we'll then shut down the Turface setup. That will consist of a full clean and flush of the aquarium system, of all that old water... Followed by a re-fill with a fresh supply of my dechlorinated tap water - then a 'lock & load' with more dosed Ammonia! Once the dosed Ammonia stabilizes in the aquarium system, will again place in four of those big pond baskets with the (more iron heavy) 'Aqualat', to begin TEST 2 of the Anoxic Filtration Process.


Amazon.com: Brightwell Aquatics FlorinBase Laterite Powder - Natural Laterite Clay Substrate for Planted and Freshwater Shrimp Aquaria, : Everything Else

How about 2 of this (650 grams /4 = 162 grams) of respectable laterite in each of your baskets?

No this is cheaper 

Amazon.com : Oliver Knott AQUALAT Power Plant Growth, 7 L, Orange : Pet Supplies 

32usd for 6 kilos.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Rockfella said:


> Amazon.com: Brightwell Aquatics FlorinBase Laterite Powder - Natural Laterite Clay Substrate for Planted and Freshwater Shrimp Aquaria, : Everything Else
> 
> How about 2 of this (650 grams /4 = 162 grams) of respectable laterite in each of your baskets?
> 
> ...


Yeah, the powdered forms are cheaper. But they are also a pain in the rear end to work with.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Five bags of Aqualat have been ordered from the Evil Empire.
And with a promised delivery date of 23 September, that leaves plenty of time to get things prepped and set up for Anoxic Filtration Test 2.


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## Sasquatchv (4 mo ago)

@Auballagh are you going to test nitrites too? Just in case that kicks off and skews the results? I'm surprised to see second dip in ammonia after 2 days of stable level. It's just absorbed by kation exchange, I would expect steady lowering of pH and ammonia( all kations) to a plateau.

Just came across moler clay known also as ditomaceus earth, which is basically bentonite clay with addition of microporous silica - perfect for bacteria colony. It's sold as bonsai substrate or pink non clumping cat litter. Pink would suggest trace iron content too. But i can't find any. More detailed composition info.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Sasquatchv said:


> @Auballagh are you going to test nitrites too? Just in case that kicks off and skews the results? I'm surprised to see second dip in ammonia after 2 days of stable level. It's just absorbed by kation exchange, I would expect steady lowering of pH and ammonia( all kations) to a plateau.
> 
> Just came across moler clay known also as ditomaceus earth, which is basically bentonite clay with addition of microporous silica - perfect for bacteria colony. It's sold as bonsai substrate or pink non clumping cat litter. Pink would suggest trace iron content too. But i can't find any. More detailed composition info.


Ammonia drop was almost rapid for me. I used oil-dri no laterite/iron source. Check time stamps on photos.


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## Sasquatchv (4 mo ago)

Sooo.
You had drop in ammonia with spike in nitrites. Then both cleared up, all in 4 days.
Did you test in non cycled tank?
Rapid ammonia drop can be attributed to kation(cation) exchange within the clay. Auballagh's test shows similar drop within 24h of putting baskets in. 
But nitrite spike would suggest active biomedia somewhere? Can't see how biologicaly inert clay could convert ammonia to nitrites and then remove both. And 4 days is too short for any cycling to happen.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Sasquatchv said:


> Sooo.
> You had drop in ammonia with spike in nitrites. Then both cleared up, all in 4 days.
> Did you test in non cycled tank?
> Rapid ammonia drop can be attributed to kation(cation) exchange within the clay. Auballagh's test shows similar drop within 24h of putting baskets in.
> But nitrite spike would suggest active biomedia somewhere? Can't see how biologicaly inert clay could convert ammonia to nitrites and then remove both. And 4 days is too short for any cycling to happen.


I have no idea but this happened last year and I was also surprised. Non cycled tank. Fishless cycle and now I don't even cycle tanks. So I emailed Dr. Novak and Syd (mankyskanke) and was told this is normal with anoxic filtration system.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

After placing those pond baskets in the water, and measuring that original dip in Ammonia plus the hit to my PH, I did test for Nitrite and Nitrate. Both came up zero though, so I quit testing for the stuff. Will have to re-test again today and see what is happening with those - and will inform of any (completely unexpected) readings.
Might be that the Turface is just simply going at the Ammonia (H3N?). With no beneficial bacteria present in the test aquarium, I don't believe there should be a follow up conversion process over to NO2 or NO3 happening within the filtration system.


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## Sasquatchv (4 mo ago)

Auballagh said:


> Might be that the Turface is just simply going at the Ammonia (H3N?). With no beneficial bacteria present in the test aquarium, I don't believe there should be a follow up conversion process over to NO2 or NO3 happening within the filtration system.


Agreed, turface, bentonite, moler and similiar clays have certain capacity to absorb kations as NH4, what happens to free NH3 is another question, probably escapes to amophere.

By the end of 2 week test period you could have nitrite producing bacteria colonising outer, oxygen rich layers of the turface. I wouldn't waste a nitrite test now. Last day test of nitrates, and nitrites would make sense though. Especially with day 1 measurements to compare with.

For the sake of science it would be awesome if you could run "control group" without any media, just glass and water to make sure ammonia does not simply evaporate.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Sasquatchv said:


> For the sake of science it would be awesome if you could run "control group" without any media, just glass and water to make sure ammonia does not simply evaporate.


Excellent idea.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

I understand that this is just an "experiment". There are other variables that do come into play in an aquarium. Laterite promotes fantastic plant growth & health which also impacts nitrate levels. The calcined clay & laterite may have other impacts on gravel beds, filtration systems, etc, which occur in conjunction with all the other processes.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Whew.... 


Sasquatchv said:


> For the sake of science it would be awesome if you could run a "control group" without any media, just glass and water to make sure ammonia does not simply evaporate.


That is indeed, a good point. And, with the test (Franken Tank?) aquarium pushing over 1000GPH in water flow, simple evaporation of that Ammonia out of the water is something I have speculated about as well.
So yes... I DO have a dry, 10 gallon tank that I set up and (seldom) use as a quarantine/treatment tank. And sure! I could definitely place that little tank back into service with just glass, dechlorinated water and plenty of Ammonia in it, at a measured 7 - 8 PPM just like the test tank (I'll leave the established sponge media for the little HOB filter out of it).
That way, if we ARE getting those descending Ammonia readings simultaneously in both tanks? We'll know then it's almost certainly NOT the Turface that is slowly eating the dosed Ammonia out of the test tank.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

My experience fishless cycling BCBs gave basically the same results as cycling aerobic biomedia, except for slightly lower (safer) levels of ammonia and nitrite while cycling. Then after 10 weeks I'm seeing nitrate reduction.

I mix seachem flourite red with the baked clay. 3 parts clay to 1 part flourite.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

So far @Auballagh"s test is showing similar results to mine, except that I used normal amounts of ammonia when fishless cycling.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Well, after about a day.... the Turface just quit doing anything. The test proved that source of _FIRED CALCINED CLAY_ isn't viable to support Anoxic Filtration.
So, I picked up some Oil-Dri and was bemused to note there are various mineral choices offered of that product, that will perform as, well, Oil-Dri.
The 'Fullers Earth' variety was attempted for use first... But unfortunately, the 'Fullers Earth' type is just too water soluble to be useful. It pretty quickly breaks down into a soft goo.
So... the next Oil-Dri product up for potential consideration is this stuff made from Bentonite Clay.
Info as follows from the web site,
_*Calcium Bentonite*_
*Attapulgite
Diatomaceous Shale
*
_*Bentonite clay is a sedimentary rock that formed millions of years ago from the alteration of siliceous sediments deposited over long geologic time spans. A particular type of this bentonite clay contains a unique combination of non-swelling minerals which are primarily calcium-montmorillonite phyllosilicates and amorphous opaline-silica lepispheres.*_
-
Uhhh, yeah. 
So anyway, this stuff has the nice quality at least of NOT turning into goo after immersion into water. So.... does the Anoxic Filtration Process crowd here want a second test run on this Oil-Dri stuff (Calcium Bentonite), to see if it will be viable against Ammonia?
Or, something else?
Oh, and sorry @Aussieman57 ... @Rockfella almost had to hit the 'fainting couch' when he saw how much we paid for the Australian sourced Laterite. Just too expensive to be useful for this application, so he recommended we not run a second test with that product.


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## Sasquatchv (4 mo ago)

No offense @Auballagh but you didn't test anoxic filtration but cation exchange capacity of turface.
Without seeding with all 3 types of bacteria your tests are kinda moot.

Whole point of anoxic filtration is to have classic amonia -> nitrate cycle and an added anoxic nitrate -> n2+o2 process.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Sasquatchv said:


> No offense @Auballagh but you didn't test anoxic filtration but cation exchange capacity of turface.
> Without seeding with all 3 types of bacteria your tests are kinda moot.
> 
> Whole point of anoxic filtration is to have classic amonia -> nitrate cycle and an added anoxic nitrate -> n2+o2 process.


Yes, that test can take a long time.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Sasquatchv said:


> No offense @Auballagh but you didn't test anoxic filtration but cation exchange capacity of turface.
> Without seeding with all 3 types of bacteria your tests are kinda moot.
> 
> Whole point of anoxic filtration is to have classic amonia -> nitrate cycle and an added anoxic nitrate -> n2+o2 process.


Yeah, I was confused by Auballah's last post too. Did not make sense to me and I was going to post a response this morning, but you beat me to it.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Good point.
However, that cation exchange is supposed to work with Ammonia. And, initially with the Turface - it did. At least for just a bit longer than a day.
Then for some reason, it quit. This test was ALWAYS set up to see if that _FIRED CALCINED CLAY_ would remove the Ammonia out of the water. By itself, with no help by beneficial bacteria, Live Aquatic Plants or anything else.
-
So yes, there is a possibility that the _FIRED CALCINED CLAY_ will remove Nitrate by itself in a fully cycled aquarium. And yes, if you believe that we should conduct a Test 3 of that capability? Then sure, after cycling out the filtration system for the test aquarium, I could reload those pond baskets filled with Turface back into the water again. But this time with Nitrates pushing around a measured 80 - 100 PPM, then see if there is any Nitrates reduction (preferably removal) effect.
Once again though, for a Test 3, the _FIRED CALCINED CLAY_ in those pond baskets will have to remove those Nitrates by itself, with no help from Live Aquatic Plants, Anaerobic bacteria or anything else.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

The way BCB baskets/bags work is from a combo of fired calcined clay & laterite. Nitrate reduction Occurs as a result of anaerobic bacteria that eventually colonize this combo. I never understood why testing one component would be of any benefit. Kind of like trying to run an engine without gasoline.


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## Sasquatchv (4 mo ago)

Cation exchange happens when clay has unbalanced ionic harge or is exposed to cations of higher potential than already existing cations. It is short lived, limited capacity process by its very definition.
Normally you would soak such clay in deionised water dosed with trace elements and use it as trace element rich substrate for plants.

In fully cycled tank it takes 4-6weeks to build up anoxic bacteria to a level where nitrates stars to drop. Normal levels(10-40ppm) are sufficient. Before that, thanks to ammonia cation exchange you will notice slow down or even freeze of nitrate level rise.

This will work with any media, but leca stoped working for me after 10-12 months. 

You could speed this up by seeding your baskets with river sand collected 4" under the bottom. Never tried such seeding, rivers around me are too polluted to even think about it in fished tank.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Drawback of doing this test to the fullest is the time. It may take months before the facultative bacteria is deprived of oxygen so as to make them steal oxygen from nitrate and release nitrogen gas.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

The Anoxic Filtration Process test was always set up to determine if there was a purely non-anaerobic method to removing the Ammonia. Simple chemistry instead of building an anaerobic colony of bacteria.
And yes, that anaerobic thing was also tested out a few years back. And, was proved out with some problems of it's own. So, as a comparison with the Anoxic Filtration Process, I was hoping this cation exchange process with the clay media would set up and work a lot differently than the Anaerobic method, (hopefully much more efficiently).
From a previous post,


Auballagh said:


> We're working a test right now on the Anoxic Filtration Process, that may offer some solutions to removing high Nitrates in aquarium water. Unfortunately, Test 1 using Turface as the required _Fired Calcined Clay_ for Anoxic Filtration, did not produce measured results that indicated any benefits.
> Stand by though. We have a Test 2 coming up using plain old Oil-Dri (kitty Litter?) as the source of _Fired Calcined Clay _that may prove more effective_.
> -_
> Other than that, you are left with Anaerobic Filtration. Which is a very different process. The only Anaerobic Filtration thing I have personally seen that actually worked, utilized a 9 foot section of 6 inch diameter PVC pipe, filled up completely with Seachem Matrix rock. Water pumped up from a sump yielded an output through the pipe of approximately 4 - 5 gallons PER HOUR. Output water from the pipe measured out at zero Nitrate.
> ...


So yeah.... if Anoxic Filtration needs to run as part of an Anaerobic component to the filtration process (vice purely chemical exchange), that will definitely exceed what I set up to accomplish with this test. The test was purposely set up with nothing but dechlorinated water, glass and Ammonia - along with a source of that _Fired Calcined Clay. _Everything was then placed together in that (completely sterile) test tank to see what the measured effects would be.


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## Sasquatchv (4 mo ago)

Auballagh said:


> The Anoxic Filtration Process test was always set up to determine if there was a purely non-anaerobic method to removing the Ammonia. Simple chemistry instead of building an anaerobic colony of bacteria.
> And yes, that anaerobic thing was also tested out a few years back. And, was proved out with some problems of it's own. So, as a comparison with the Anoxic Filtration Process, I was hoping this cation exchange process with the clay media would set up and work a lot differently than the Anaerobic method, (hopefully much more efficiently).
> From a previous post,
> 
> So yeah.... if Anoxic Filtration needs to run as part of an Anaerobic component to the filtration process (vice purely chemical exchange), that will definitely exceed what I set up to accomplish with this test. The test was purposely set up with nothing but dechlorinated water, glass and Ammonia - along with a source of that _Fired Calcined Clay. _Everything was then placed together in that (completely sterile) test tank to see what the measured effects would be.


In that case, remove turface, bake it(at800C to decompose ammonia), put it back to see if it's soaking up ammonia again. Mind you all cations are removed to some degree so you could find after few month that your alkalinity dropped and your PH is going wild...


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Well, yeah.
Replacing the old Turface in those pond baskets with a fresh batch, or baking out that old Turface, would probably replicate the initial Ammonia reduction effect we saw earlier in the Test. The stuff does seem to have a natural (limited) capacity to remove Ammonia from the water. In fact, if I recall (@Sasquatchv ) you were a little concerned that evaporation or something could be causing the Ammonia to naturally come out of the water of the test tank (causing that initial, measured reduction of the Ammonia). But fortunately, we saw that over the successive days of the test, the Ammonia level stabilized and never dropped lower than that amount measured out in the first day or so of the test. (No additional Ammonia was ever added to the water of the test tank).
-
And, in using the _Fired Calcined Clay_ the way @Rockfella (and @Aussieman57 ) have been doing, with the slow movement plenum method or long term in those big bags or baskets, it's easy to see that you both are definitely getting an Anaerobic effect out of the media. And yes, its possible that the _Fired Calcined Clay_ promotes a much stronger and more viable colony of Anaerobic bacteria than the stuff I grew out a few years back, using the Seachem Matrix rock in that big length of PVC pipe.
So, could we say that the Anoxic Process is being used as an ENHANCING Method for the Anaerobic bacteria? That is, the Anoxic Filtration Process is not viable as a 'stand alone' filtration method, and will NOT work without a strong source of established/cycled filtration, and hopefully some Live Aquatic Plants to aid in removing those dissolved organics from the water.
Or.... to use an interesting term that we've discussed here recently,
Truly, _COMPREHENSIVE FILTRATION_? 








Comprehensive Filtration - When Technology Is Not Enough


As freshwater aquarists, we (and our little charges) live under the TYRANNY of the Three Kings of the Nitrogen Domains. We must obey and submit to the Rules & Writ of these Realms! As follows, AMMONIA: King of Fire and Initial Terror NITRITE: King of Tricks and Pain NITRATE: Harbinger King...




www.cichlid-forum.com


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

This might not be a scientifically acurate description, but this is how i think of it.
The BCB has a capacity to absorb Ammionia and will draw ammonia in until the point of saturation. When the BCB is colonized with beneficial bacteria it will consume the ammonia, and it will never actually be saturated, which basically makes it a magnet for ammonia, with the advantage that it will never clog.


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## Sasquatchv (4 mo ago)

marten said:


> This might not be a scientifically acurate description, but this is how i think of it.
> The BCB has a capacity to absorb Ammionia and will draw ammonia in until the point of saturation. When the BCB is colonized with beneficial bacteria it will consume the ammonia, and it will never actually be saturated, which basically makes it a magnet for ammonia, with the advantage that it will never clog.


That's the gist of it.
It will clog, but, assuming good prefilter, after very long time.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Sasquatchv said:


> That's the gist of it.
> It will clog, but, assuming good prefilter, after very long time.


How would it clog? We’re not pushing anything through the BCB right? I can see how a plenum would clog eventually. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Of all what I've gathered bcbs and plenum never clogs unless not set right to begin with. There are folks who've used same plenum for decades. I'll post links soon.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Reefkeeping Magazine - Paul Baldassano’s Reef - 40 Years in the Making

TLDR: Guy used same plenum with great success for 40+ years just cleaning it after 25 years even when there was no need. 50gph flow rate worked best for him. Same that Dr. Novak recommends. 

(26) Shocking news: One of the oldest hobbyist reef tanks in existence uses a slow-moving Plenum. - YouTube 

I linked Dr. Novak up with this shocking news lol.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Rockfella said:


> Reefkeeping Magazine - Paul Baldassano’s Reef - 40 Years in the Making
> 
> TLDR: Guy used same plenum with great success for 40+ years just cleaning it after 25 years even when there was no need. 50gph flow rate worked best for him. Same that Dr. Novak recommends.
> 
> ...


He ran the water flow backwards to avoid clogging it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

marten said:


> He ran the water flow backwards to avoid clogging it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Doc actually did an experiment years ago. Used 2 tanks, same variables, 1 regular plenum 1 reverse. After some time (i don't remember details) the results were same . I'll try to link up the video.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

I've been setting up smaller tanks the past few months and sort of left the bigger tanks on autopilot in the meantime. Realized earlier that I hadn't done water changes in a couple months, just top offs. Checked parameters today, zero nitrates in every tank. I also solved the algae issue in my 20 gallon by fiddling with the light for a while. Now I need to do that in the 75 since it has a fair amount of green hair since I doubled it's lighting. 

All of my small tanks are doing equally well with their plenums. The 10 gallon is heavily planted, but the nano tanks aren't and no traces of anything nitrogen related in any of them. The nanos are working really well with my light diffuser and plastic mesh plenums. I was worried gravel would warp them or something and they might fail allowing gravel to fall through, but they're working better than I expected so far and it's been a couple months. 

The wife isn't aware yet, but I'm gonna set up a rack of 3 20 longs and a 29 (just plenums and box filters all off one air pump, planted BCBs in the tanks). I might change one of the 20's into a nano tank shelf instead. Plenums make nano tanks so much more stable than usual. I feel like I can keep a bunch going on the cheap without constant maintenance and use them for fry and scud colonies.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

neverenoughtanks said:


> I've been setting up smaller tanks the past few months and sort of left the bigger tanks on autopilot in the meantime. Realized earlier that I hadn't done water changes in a couple months, just top offs. Checked parameters today, zero nitrates in every tank. I also solved the algae issue in my 20 gallon by fiddling with the light for a while. Now I need to do that in the 75 since it has a fair amount of green hair since I doubled it's lighting.
> 
> All of my small tanks are doing equally well with their plenums. The 10 gallon is heavily planted, but the nano tanks aren't and no traces of anything nitrogen related in any of them. The nanos are working really well with my light diffuser and plastic mesh plenums. I was worried gravel would warp them or something and they might fail allowing gravel to fall through, but they're working better than I expected so far and it's been a couple months.
> 
> The wife isn't aware yet, but I'm gonna set up a rack of 3 20 longs and a 29 (just plenums and box filters all off one air pump, planted BCBs in the tanks). I might change one of the 20's into a nano tank shelf instead. Plenums make nano tanks so much more stable than usual. I feel like I can keep a bunch going on the cheap without constant maintenance and use them for fry and scud colonies.


Do you have airlifts in those plenums or only plenums? What soil do you use in planted tanks?


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

My 40G Long is settling in well. Nitrates sit just below 5 ppm before 30% weekly water changes. A while back I showed pictures of the first iteration of this setup. It's filtered only by 3 BCBs that form part of the rock scape, with a wave maker to move water around. There is a skimmer to keep the water surface nice and clean too. 

Since then I moved the BCBs up, to give the fish much more floor space, and that really works well for them. I set the BCBs on top of a few similar sized square rocks and then piled some in front and on top of them, leaving good size gaps. My next step will be to disguise the BCBs with a concrete facing, made in the same way as DIY 3D backgrounds are made.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Rockfella said:


> Do you have airlifts in those plenums or only plenums? What soil do you use in planted tanks?


I use one shortened airlift in each plenum with an airstone. Mostly I just use regular gravel with a clay/laterite layer in the middle. 2 tanks have gravel and sand. I did use flourite in one tank to try it out. No real difference.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Well, Petco is having their 50% off tanks sale this week, so I grabbed my new tanks. 3 20 longs and a 29. Had to sneak them in through the basement so the wife didn't see me, although she already saw the rack (but is pretending she can veto this, lol). I think I've decided what to do with all of them.

All will be run off one air pump, probably a Whisper 100. All 4 will have plenums and corner/box filters. Gonna use mostly regular, small gravel with a layer of the clay + laterite in the middle. I got a bunch of cheap 4" orchid planters that will be used for in tank BCBs, with plants growing in them (probably just crypts and compacta amazon swords). I ordered cheap Aquaneat full spectrum lights for each (24"). The surge protector I got is half on all the time, half on a timer with 8 outlets, so should work perfect. I have some clear plastic sheets to use for lids. Simple, always 78 degrees F, 100 watt heaters for each. This weekend I'm going to clean them up and get them set up and planted. I'll probably let them settle in (and let the vals and frogbit spread) for a few weeks before stocking them, but the stocking is pretty much decided.

29: 1 Angelfish, a clown pleco, school of panda corys, school of harlequin rasboras
20: Amatitlania Nanoluteus (yellow convict) breeding tank
20: Lyretail Killifish breeding tank (or Ellioti cichlids if I can find them)
20: Nano community, schools of Dario Dario, chili rasboras, ember tetras, celestial pearl danios, pigmy corys, otos, shrimp

Now, If I don't update within a few weeks, assume my wife killed me and contact the authorities, lol.


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## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

Kitty litter purr-fect fix for lake pollution - NZ Herald 

Interesting read.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Rockfella said:


> Kitty litter purr-fect fix for lake pollution - NZ Herald
> 
> Interesting read.


I'd be interested to know what the 'modification' of the zeolite was, but I'm sure that's proprietary. 
I remember many, MANY years ago when I was in college, I helped my friend on his experiment cleaning up lead in the topsoil of a city block that had been demolished. We were planting mustard plants and spraying it with some experimental chemical he and his lab partner got from their grant partner that significantly enhanced the mustard's ability to suck lead out of the soil. I helped him for 2 semesters straight and he still couldn't tell me what the secret sauce was. Annoying. Especially since it worked completely, i.e., there was 0 lead detectable in the soil after we harvested.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

Had to hold off on setting up the new tanks this weekend. UGFs and a few other things got delayed in shipping, plus I wrenched my back moving stuff around trying to organize the basement fish rooms. That's fine. With Christmas coming, I should probably go slow anyway. On the bright side, my wife was down in the basement with her cousin for hours yesterday and didn't even see/notice the new tanks. They'll have been there a week tomorrow, so even once she finally discovers them, I have a good argument it isn't effecting her at all.

Edit: I'm considering playing around with the clay as the only substrate, or the main substrate with a gravel/sand cap on top. Little worried the water will get stripped of literally everything in it initially, but that would be a temporary issue. I actually think the generic brand I bought looks decent when wet. Kind of a mix of greys from light to dark. It was on sale at Autozone, so I got 99 lbs. for $30. We'll see if that's enough. Probably not quite, but it's actually cheaper per cubic foot than sand or any gravel small enough to use for the bulk of the plenum.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

neverenoughtanks said:


> Had to hold off on setting up the new tanks this weekend. UGFs and a few other things got delayed in shipping, plus I wrenched my back moving stuff around trying to organize the basement fish rooms. That's fine. With Christmas coming, I should probably go slow anyway. On the bright side, my wife was down in the basement with her cousin for hours yesterday and didn't even see/notice the new tanks. They'll have been there a week tomorrow, so even once she finally discovers them, I have a good argument it isn't effecting her at all.
> 
> Edit: I'm considering playing around with the clay as the only substrate, or the main substrate with a gravel/sand cap on top. Little worried the water will get stripped of literally everything in it initially, but that would be a temporary issue. I actually think the generic brand I bought looks decent when wet. Kind of a mix of greys from light to dark. It was on sale at Autozone, so I got 99 lbs. for $30. We'll see if that's enough. Probably not quite, but it's actually cheaper per cubic foot than sand or any gravel small enough to use for the bulk of the plenum.


I'm glad we still have you with us!


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

I keep getting more confident about anoxic filtration. I was really surprised today to see my 125 back down to zero nitrates. Bioload has increased a lot, both due to fish growth and a couple new additions. the amount I'm feeding has doubled, and I was seeing 5ppm Nitrate every time i checked recently. Phosphate also got up to 1ppm, and it is now at 0.5ppm and likely will also drop down more now that nitrates are under control. I did not add any Anoxic media to correct this, so I'm thinking the BB colony has grown to accommodate the increased bioload within the existing media.


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## neverenoughtanks (8 mo ago)

So I showed my wife the new tanks and laid out my case for them. I'm sure she's going to go buy about every book and shoe she can fit in her car, but I and the tanks are still here, so:


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