# I think something's actually wrong with my saulosi



## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

Sorry for making so many threads lately, everybody. I recently posted that my saulosi were gulping air from the surface ever since I got them.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=289474

I lost one during the 27 hour blackout I had about 10 days ago. He was already acting sickly, hiding, not swimming properly, just sitting on the bottom, since the day I got him, but the blackout killed him.

Now, I see another one, the smallest one, sitting on the bottom, not wanting to group with the others, hiding, and he has white transparent poo coming out of him. All others pooing normally. I think I'm going to lose this little one next.

Also, as a possibly related side note, my assassin snail dropped dead.

Also, ever since I got them, one of them had a tiny indent under it's left gill. Today, the indent has turned into an actual hole, and is rather large. You can see it here, right under the left gill/pectoral(?) fin area. Sorry for the blurry picture, the fish don't stay still.


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## kyboy (Oct 30, 2009)

pablo111 wrote " Now, I see another one, the smallest one, sitting on the bottom, not wanting to group with the others, hiding, and he has white transparent poo coming out of him. All others pooing normally. I think I'm going to lose this little one next."

Time to remove carbon (if you use it) & treat the tank . There's an updated bloat article here in library . 
I'd do the metronidazole powder along with epsom salt treatment, before it runs through all your stock.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

Won't metro kill my biofilter?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I've never had a problem losing bacteria when treating with meds and I've used metro several times.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

Any thoughts on the dent/hole in the chest of the fish in the picture?


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

Anybody? Hole? Second opinion about treating with metro? Why not levamisole instead, for example?


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Not a clue regarding the hole, unfortunately. I agree that metro won't affect your bio, it only affects anaerobic bacteria. Ammonia and nitrite oxidizing bacteria are both aerobic.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

You need to start treating ASAP. Getting ahold of powdered metro can be difficult. I needed to next day air mine. As a substitute, Tetra Parasite Guard has worked for me in the past and should available locally. If you go with the Tetra, follow the instructions on this site, not the box.

I had a young L. Caeruleus that had a small part of his gill cover missing. It grew larger, but so did the fish. I believed it was just more noticeable because the fish was getting bigger. I ended up returning him because I believed it to be a hybrid, so can't say what the end result was. I'm pretty sure it was just a birth deformity.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> You need to start treating ASAP.


Treating for what? Do you think it's an internal parasite? What will an antibacterial do in that case?
I've just looked into getting fish medications and they've really tightened things up. You need a veterinarian's prescription for a lot of things now. I'm pretty sure metronidazole is one of them. I knoe Levamisole is, which is the logical thing to me, to treat with in this situation.

I'm not using Metro until somebody explains to me what they think is wrong with the fish and why I should be using metro. I've shotgunned a lot of medications in the past and been wrong with the diagnosis many times.










This guy just dropped dead this morning. It's the same guy from the picture a few posts ago. Perfectly healthy yesterday. This morning, dead.

Upon further inspection of the corpse, the "hole" was just a dark pigmented spot on the surface of the skin. No hole was actually there.


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## kyboy (Oct 30, 2009)

Metro is for "malawi bloat" .
Most say it's a protozoa parasite Spironucleus
article is here http://cichlid-forum.com/articles/malawi_bloat2_pt1.php
Based on symptoms , like "hiding & transparent poo" also not eating/spitting food etc.... you probably want to treat asap.
Availability depends on location i guess, metro powder is readily available at my lfs , but levamisole not so much.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Bloat. Reclusive, not feeding and clear feces are all symptoms. The young male you lost during the power outage was exhibiting the same symptoms other than the feces.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

pablo111 said:


> You need a veterinarian's prescription for a lot of things now. I'm pretty sure metronidazole is one of them.


PM sent re: Metro. It's readily available in Canada.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

OK so I got Seachem Metroplex and added the first dose. It said to use 1 or 2 measures per 10 gallons so I used 6 measures for my 29 gallon. It says to dose again in 2 days. I only have enough for 1 more dose, after that I'll run out. Is two doses enough or do I need to obtain more Metroplex? This was the last tube at the store.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Not familiar with that product, sorry. Any other fish showing symptoms?


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Not familiar with that product, sorry. Any other fish showing symptoms?


It's Metro/Metronidazole, in powder form. All fish are now showing symptoms, in that they are no longer coming up for food and all go hide in the rocks when I approach the tank where as before they all rushed to the top for food.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Check your water parameters again as well as temp.
Check the bloat article linked in my sig below. Follow the instructions regarding dosing epsom salt and using metro. You're going to need more. Might want to purchase from the US store I PM'd you, it's far cheaper.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

No time to wait for a US order to come in. I'm just going to go to another Big Al's and get more metro. Epsom salt I assume I can pick up at any drug store right? I don't drive and I'm in pickering so I'm at my driving friend's mercy to get a ride to buy these things. Hopefully Monday or Tuesday I'll have them picked up. I dosed the Metro again, as it's been two days, and that's what the package recommends. I'd feed them metro soaked food but the **** things won't come up for food. They're just hiding.

Will the treatment still be effective (eliminate bloat) if the fish are not ingesting the metro? I just can't get them to eat.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Any drug store should carry Epsom salt.

The medication does work without them ingesting it. Since they're all not feeding, I would take a more aggressive approach. Double dose in the AM, followed by an evening water change and another double dose. Repeat each day. This is what I have done in the past with success. But there is no guarantee.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

I agree regarding the increased dosage, disregard the packaging instructions as far as dosing every two days is concerned. It's quite difficult to overdose using metronidazole.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

This is going to cost me a small fortune in metro... I don't know if it's worth it considering I only have $70 worth of Saulosi left...

If these fish die and I replace them, is the bloat contagious to the new fish? Is it water borne? My understanding of it is that it's just caused by parasites in the fish's gut and that it's not transmissable to other fish?


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## philipgonzales3 (Dec 4, 2013)

I think you should focus on treating your fish. If you feel they aren't worth treating with meds then I don't feel like you should buy more. Just my opinion.

I don't think it has been proven rather it is or isn't contagious and it is best to act as it were contagious. Some people believe that it is passed from bacteria, and when one fish puts another fihses waste in it's mouth it can spread. Not sure if it's true and it's only based off of what I read about it as the information can be a bit confusing, if not contradictory.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

Im not saying Im not going to treat my fish. I'm buying more metro and the epsom salt in the morning. Im just saying, if they die, which they appear close to at this point, despite my treatments, is it safe to replace them?


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## smitty814 (Sep 27, 2012)

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/malawi_bloat.php
Being brought on by immune system failure (due to stress) leading to parasites blocking the intestines. I believe that the infected fish (when spoted early) can be removed ending any spread. This is what I have done and has worked in my tanks one breakout of bloat. Since then I have kept tabs on how much and of what I feed.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

It's been argued that it is transferred through other fish mouthing feces. That being said, the other side of the argument is that these parasites are present in all fish but grow out of control in stressed or ill fish with lowered immune systems.
Should you lose the remaining fish, you should be fine to restock after 7-10 days.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

Thanks GTZ. That's the information I was looking for.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

Can Malawi Bloat be passed on to Betta splendens? I want to transfer a bit of biomedia over to my 3 gallon to start a betta tank. Is this safe? Should I wait?


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

That's a good question, I have no idea. Parasites such as those that cause bloat typically need a host to survive. I don't know what would happen if they infested a betta or if possibly they already exist in controllable quantities within the beta and also in all freshwater fish.


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## smitty814 (Sep 27, 2012)

They do exist in all freshwater fish. The immune system keeps them in check. When the immune system is compromised there's no controlling the parasite. Or something like that.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

So I should wait until the bloat is cured before taking some biofilter for the betta then?


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## smitty814 (Sep 27, 2012)

GTZ said:


> It's been argued that it is transferred through other fish mouthing feces. That being said, the other side of the argument is that these parasites are present in all fish but grow out of control in stressed or ill fish with lowered immune systems.
> Should you lose the remaining fish, you should be fine to restock after 7-10 days.


 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What he said. :roll:


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

UPDATE: saulosi are all eating. I'm feeding metro soaked food.

I figured the most logical thing was to dissolve a large amount of metro in some water in a bottle, then soak bits of food in that water throughout the day. Does metro lose effectiveness in water after a while? I guess it must right?


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

I've seen 8 hours bantered about but I don't recall ever seeing any scientific data to back this up. I do know that it's not light sensitive.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

Thanks GTZ. I opted not to go with the Epsom salt because as I understand it, it will just dessicate the fish and would be helpful if they were bloated, but they are not, so I didn't want to put extra stress on them by dehydrating them. So I'm treating right now with:

Metro soaked food 3-4x day
6 measures of metro per day
33% water change every day


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

GTZ, can you confirm that my current medication regiment is ok? I opted not to do a double dose twice daily because I can't afford that much metro, and I think it's better if it lasts me for 2 weeks of treatment vs just 1. Also, I'm feeding metro soaked food as well, so hopefully what I'm doing will be enough.

As I said before I'm dosing 6 measaures of metroplex/day
1 water change of 33% (I can't do bigger because there are a lot of dissolved gases in my tap water and it visibly stresses the fish) per day
metro soaked food 3x/day


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Are any fish not eating? If they're all eating, you can discontinue dosing the water and just feed the medicated food. This is by far a more effective means of delivering the meds as compared to dosing the water.
The epsom won't dehydrate them, it will increase intake of minerals and help pull fluids through the fish (an oversimplification but you get the idea).
I get a lot of dissolved gases as well during the winter and find that when refilling the tank, if I keep the hose above the water line as opposed to actually in the water and let the water splash as it enters the tank, the bubble content of the water is greatly reduced. Noisy and annoying but I think it makes a difference.
One last thing, I've found what I think is a better way to add metro to my food (NLS pellets). I soak the pellets in the metro/water mix but instead of feeding, I leave them to soak until the food has dried. It's less messy in the tank and more importantly, when you add the food to the tank the metro stays in the pellets longer and there's less chance for it to leach out into the water meaning the fish get a better concentration of the medication.
I think you can lower the feeding to twice or even once daily. How long have you been treating now? Usually 7-10 days is sufficient, or 3-5 days past the point of the fish resuming eating regularly.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

6 out of 7 fish eat every time. 1 is reluctant and stays near the bottom. He comes up to eat maybe 50% of the time. Last time I fed he did not come up.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

is there a better method for getting the metro into the fish? I was thinking of grinding up some pellets and mixing them with metro then binding it with gelatin. I have no idea how to do this though. I do have some gelatin packets. Anybody want to walk me through it?


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

GTZ said:


> One last thing, I've found what I think is a better way to add metro to my food (NLS pellets). I soak the pellets in the metro/water mix but instead of feeding, I leave them to soak until the food has dried. It's less messy in the tank and more importantly, when you add the food to the tank the metro stays in the pellets longer and there's less chance for it to leach out into the water meaning the fish get a better concentration of the medication.
> I think you can lower the feeding to twice or even once daily.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

But wouldn't it be even better to make gelatin food with the actual metro granules in it for the fish to eat, rather than leeching the metro out of the carrier granules into food?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Sounds like a lot of work. I just put a small amount of water (like a tablespoon) in a small cup, dissolve the metro dose in the water and add food. I only wait a few seconds for it to absorb so the food does not have a chance to turn to mush and then I dump the whole mess into the tank.


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## smitty814 (Sep 27, 2012)

pablo111 said:


> But wouldn't it be even better to make gelatin food with the actual metro granules in it for the fish to eat, rather than leeching the metro out of the carrier granules into food?


Yes it would be better. Please post how it turns out. :thumb:


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

Got the gelatin today. Will be making the medicated food tomorrow. Will post how it turns out.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

Can anybody link a guide for making fish food with gelatin?


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## smitty814 (Sep 27, 2012)

There are a couple of examples on youtube.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

I'm starting to think it's not Malawi bloat that's affecting these fish. AFter all these days of feeding metro soaked food, I have seen little improvement. A couple of the fish still don't want to come up to eat every time. The fish do not eat as ravenously as they should. A couple of them are still sulking, hiding most of the time. The male has dug himself a lair under a rock and stays there most of the time.

When I first got them they would all come to the surface begging for food the second I walked by the tank. Now it's hard to get them to come up.

Could something else be causing these same symptoms?


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## smitty814 (Sep 27, 2012)

How's the jello coming? 8)


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

They refused the jello on the first go. I'm reformulating and trying again.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

After a 30% water change with my gas laden water, the fish are all sitting on the bottom. It looks like I can't keep fish at my current address without an R/O unit or something. I think I'm going to shut the tank down.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

They could be stressed. Try giving it a few days with minimal feeding, normal food and leave the water changes for a week.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

So discontinue medicating? It's only been about a week. The parasites can't be gone yet... This is very confusing.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

I thought you were giving up on the medicating? 
7-10 days is usually my max for treating bloat. When you reach 10 days, give them a few days break from water changes and meds and anything else that might stress them, basically leave them alone for a while, lol, just feed once daily. If you're still seeing odd behavior, you can start another treatment.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

I considered giving up but they're all eating again so I'll keep at it... 3 days to go before reaching ten days of treatment. Then I'll cut the meds.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

I bought a 20 gallon plastic garbage can (LDPE) and a heater and a powerhead so I can let their water sit for a couple of days before doing water changes. The high level of gasses in the water was bothering the fish.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

UPDATE: Fish haven't shown symptoms in 2 or 3 days. Tomorrow's the last (10th) day of treatment. Let's hope they don't go down-hill again.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Good news man!


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

A friend who owns a FW/SW aquarium servicing company (highly successfully) suggested a 14 day treatment. I'm very confused now. I trust him implicitly yet you guys say 10 days... ...


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

There's not really a set x days = cured. Sometimes a single 7-10 day treatment works, other times, you discontinue medicating for a couple of days following the first treatment then start another treatment.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

GTZ said:


> There's not really a set x days = cured. Sometimes a single 7-10 day treatment works, other times, you discontinue medicating for a couple of days following the first treatment then start another treatment.


I'm going to go with 14 then unless they show signs of stress. They eat the medicated food and keep it down and are active and behaving normally right now.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

:thumb:!


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## smitty814 (Sep 27, 2012)

:thumb:


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

Update:
Yesterday was the 14th day of treatment. Today was the first day without treatment. Did a 33% water change. (I do a 33% w/c every 3-4 days). Fish are behaving completely normally at this point. Knock on mopani wood. God willing the bloat (or whatever it was) won't come back...


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## philipgonzales3 (Dec 4, 2013)

That's good to hear, I hope they continue to stay healthy .


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

The fish are showing signs of ilness again. They run and hide in the rocks when I come to the tank, though they still swim to the glass for food when I am far away. Its only when I get up close to the tank that they all hide.

They just started doing this yesterday and today. No changes to the tank except for the addition of an Eheim Skim 350 on Friday.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

My fish do this occasionally. I don't view it as a sign of illness. As long as they're still eating, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Sometimes, even the click of the heater turning on (which makes no sound whatsoever as far as I can tell) will send them scurrying into the rocks.


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