# Combining Sump, FBF, and UGJ



## Jakemonaghan90 (Nov 30, 2008)

Hello All,

I am looking to combine my 10 gallon sump with an FBF. The sump has 4 chambers. A spot for the water to enter the sump. From there it flows under a plastic divider, and up through a stack of sponges. It spills over the top of a plastic divdider (and the sponges). The next chamber will hold the heater, and possibly (although i havent done the research yet) a deep sand bed and some plants and maybe snails (if they provide any benefit; im not sure yet) It basically holds the potential to be a refugium. From there, the water spills over into the last chamber, where the pump will be.

The water is pumped out of the sump, and (hopefully) into the top of a glass vase that will serve as the fbf. I havent worked out the kinks in this plan yet, but right now i think i will figure out a way to seal the top of the vase. This seal will have two bulkheads, an in and an out. Obviously, the in will be connected to a pvc pipe that directs the water down to the bottom of the vase, where the sand becomes fluidized. The water exits the second bulk head, and travels to the tank.

I have an existing network of UGJs in the tank, with a "quick connector" for vinyl tubing. Mine plan was to attach vinyl tubing to the exit bulkhead of the FBF, and to the quik connector on the UGJ.

This is the plan so far, but I have some concerns/ questions:

1) Is this sump Kosher? can anyone suggest modifications or point out any problems?

2) Will sending the returning water through the UGJs rather than breaking the surface of the water with a spray bar provide enough oxygen in the water? Will i need an air pump? Is not having anything break the surface a bad idea?

3) Finally, I plan on using a mag 7 pump. Its only a 30 gallon tank, but it will be at a 4 foot head, and it will need to travel a long way (through the FBF and subsequently the UGJ). Will this pump match my system? I think it will but I admit im pretty much a rookie to the DIY scene.

Sorry for such a long winded post but, this plan seems pretty cool to me, and i want it to work. Hope I havent been a bore...

Thanks in advance just for reading this


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## Rizup (Jan 29, 2008)

Where do I start. . . Ok here goes. . .

1) Sump should be okay, other than the deep sand bed idea (can be beneficial for salt water due to the detrivores that are available). Forget the deep sand bed and snails. If anything, try growing plants in the sump if you want.

2) Two points here - First you would want a siphon break so that you don't drain the entire tank in a power outage. Second, I would suggest a powerhead or something for surface agitation, although you may not need it if you get enough agitation from the overflow.

3) How much flow will your overflow handle? Is it a drilled tank or an external overflow? What size pipe for the drain? As far as the FBF, I would consider a separate feed pump/powerhead for it and a ball valve to control the flow. I think the Mag 7 should work fine for your setup.

Just my 2 cents. HTH.

Mike


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## Jakemonaghan90 (Nov 30, 2008)

thanks for the input.

the overflow is an external pvc overflow, made of 3/4 inch pvc.

The pump is certainly stronger than the overflow, but the hope was that by using a larger pump, and sending it through the fbf, rather than two seperate pumps, the flow rate would be reduced enough to match the overflow, or come close.

From there, the ball valve will back it off if required. Afer further research *** ditched the DSB.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Rather than just pinching off the pump return, to balance in/out, from sump...put a "T" on your pumps out so you can route your x-cess flow back through your filter media.


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## duaneS (Aug 31, 2006)

I agree with Kaiser, by using a T you can send and throttle extra pump flow to the FBF and again back to the sump, creating surface agitation, and still send a strong flow to the tank. I do something very similar in my situation. 
Plants are also a good suggestion (I use planted sumps as opposed to artificial biomedia) for fresh water reduction of nitrates, although they will not replace normal partial water changes.


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## Rizup (Jan 29, 2008)

Still, keep the siphon break in mind if you are plumbing your returns to UGJ. How about making your overflow out of 1" PVC instead? If this is doable, it will allow for much more flow. Better to oversize the drain whenever possible.

If you are set on using the single pump, then I would say the T and ball valve are a good suggestion. I had this type of setup on a Mag 18 return pump, but when I reworked my sump, I redid the plumbing. I run two Mag 12's wide open, but I am considering going back to the single Mag 18 or one Mag 12 to save energy.

Mike


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## Jakemonaghan90 (Nov 30, 2008)

thanks for all the replies.

The pvc overflow that i made is a siphon break, so i shouldnt have any problems there. Also, according to this: http://flexpvc.com/WaterFlowBasedOnPipeSize.shtml , the 3/4 inch pvc should handle about 660 gph. With the distance that the mag 7 is pumping, and the 4 ft head, the overlow will probably out do the pump. i think 1 inch pvc would be way too much.

About the T...

I went to the depot today, and looked at some parts and connections. I havent been able to put a good design together in my head...any suggestions? All that i saw were ball valves and the T connectors. I suppose i could but a ball valve on the end of both of the Ts, but that seems kind of sloppy. I recall reading about this on another post, but i cant find it.

Over and out.


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## Jakemonaghan90 (Nov 30, 2008)

thanks for all the replies.

The pvc overflow that i made is a siphon break, so i shouldnt have any problems there. Also, according to this: http://flexpvc.com/WaterFlowBasedOnPipeSize.shtml , the 3/4 inch pvc should handle about 660 gph. With the distance that the mag 7 is pumping, and the 4 ft head, the overlow will probably out do the pump. i think 1 inch pvc would be way too much.

About the T...

I went to the depot today, and looked at some parts and connections. I havent been able to put a good design together in my head...any suggestions? All that i saw were ball valves and the T connectors. I suppose i could but a ball valve on the end of both of the Ts, but that seems kind of sloppy. I recall reading about this on another post, but i cant find it.

Over and out.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

> 3/4 inch pvc should handle about 660 gph


Hey jake..those figures are for a "FULL" siphon, if I plug off my vent the flow from my "pretzel" will outrun my pump big time.
Wish I would have known that before my build.


> the siphon break in mind if you are plumbing your returns to UGJ.


He was talking about your UGJ siphoning back to your sump when the pump is off.
On the air exchange, spray bar, UGJ, etc., depending on how the water is delivered to the sumps filtering media...you could do all your exchange at the sump.(IMHO)


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## Jakemonaghan90 (Nov 30, 2008)

If the "pretzel" overflow will outrun the pump, then i probably shouldnt go with a bigger drain, correct?

And im kind of confused about the siphon break. How could i put one one the return to the UGJs?

Lastly, the water spills over the mechanical filtration into the refugium. That should provide enough agitation to oxyginate the systme?

Thanks again


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

First..when I say FULL siphon, I mean with your vent closed, just like sticking a hose in the tank and sucking, your "t" at the low water point is open to the air, which will stop your overflow at that level..without it, will pull water out untill at the bottom of your lift pipe. 
No.2...with the pump not pushing the water to your UGJ, the water will flow back to the sump to the level of the UGJ jets. Put a hole below the water line, it will act as your "T" does in the pretzel.
Last, ya, I think you would get good air exchange just by the water going thru your media.


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## Jakemonaghan90 (Nov 30, 2008)

Hey

Went to home depot today and bought a sump pump check valve. Now I won't need the hole!

Thanks for all the input. I'm in the middle of building my stand and finishng everything. When I'm done I'll figure out how to post pics.


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## Rizup (Jan 29, 2008)

Your overflow will only drain as much as your pump puts out. However, if your pump puts out more than your overflow can drain or if you lose siphon or have a blockage, you will end up flooding the tank and running your pump dry. That is why I suggested using 1" PVC. That would give you cushion. From everything I have ever heard, 1" PVC will flow a max of 600 gph.

Of course your pump will also be fighting additional head unless you are using big return piping (1.5"), but I would rather oversize the drains and be safe. I am running two Mag 12's on my tank with two 1" drains. The returns go from 1" to 3/4" at the bulkheads. If I could have bigger drain pipes I would. I am actually thinking about going back to my single Mag 18 to save on energy consumption.

As far as the check valve goes, in theory it will work, but if it fails your tank will drain down to the UGJ openings and your fish will not have any water to swim in because it will all be on your floor. Not worth the risk in my opinion. I know that some people use them, but I would only use it as a backup after I knew that I couldn't overflow my sump with the volume of water that drains during a power outage.

Mike


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## Jakemonaghan90 (Nov 30, 2008)

Thanks again for the input.

Right now my setup is outfitted with 3/4 inch fittings, like the barb on the sump and the hose attached to the pvc overflow. Im going to run the setup with the 3/4 for now, since its all setup. I may switch to 1 inch in the future.

As for the sump check valve, do they have a history of failing? they look to me as if there isnt really anything to fail...

And for the ugj siphoning back to the sump, the water would have to travel 30 inches up, and then over the tank wall. It doesnt seem like that could happen, but im clearly not an expert.

Many thanks[/list]


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## bulldogg7 (Mar 3, 2003)

I just made a 3/4 pvc overflow a couple of weeks ago, it only handles a max of 400 gph for me, probably less. Found this chart on another site for pvc overflow drain rates:
3/4" = 330 gph
1" = 600 gph
1 1/4" = 910 gph
1 1/2" = 1,300 gph
1 3/4" = 1,800 gph
2" = 2,350 gph
2 1/4" = 2,960 gph
2 1/2" = 3,650 gph
2 3/4 = 4,450 gph
3" = 5,280 gph

It was my first pvc overflow and I was skeptical at first, but it works great. I got the stuff to make a 1.25" yesterday, and a new pump.
The sand bed, if not stirred every week, or more would go anoxic and get nasty.


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## Rizup (Jan 29, 2008)

Since you already have the 3/4" built, might as well give it a try. As for the check valve, maybe it will work fine. I know there are more issues using them with salt water.

Unless there is a way for the siphon to suck air, it will continue to drain.

Mike


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