# Two holding demasoni



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Hi. Separated two holding demasoni from my main tank about a week ago. They currently reside in a 2ft by 1ft maternity tank. Water is all fine and I have some rock for them to hide. Both females have barely come out, one hiding under a rock and the other round the back of the heater. I put a little food in but neither wanted to eat. Both look like they are constantly chewing with a massive bulge in their throats. Is this normal behaviour for holding females to do pretty much nothing? And if not what should i do? Thanks


----------



## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

Holding females don't eat whilst holding so no point in adding food you'll just be polluting the tank. 
What you describe is totally normal


----------



## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

Brooding females are secretive, and eat little or nothing whilst holding. The behavior you describe is what one typically observes in an isolation tank, so stay the course. I can't speak specifically about _P. demasoni_, because I have never kept them, but for other Mbuna and _Tropheus_ I usually leave the females with the fry for a week or so after release in order to fatten them up before returning them to their original tank. They will continue to be skittish during this time, because being in isolation is not natural for these fishes; they need company to feel secure. Good luck. :thumb:


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I have had mbuna begin to eat their own fry 24 hours later. It is nice to fatten them up but a separate tank is not available here.


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

You seem to have answered my next question. How long after the spit the fry do I leave them in the same tank for bearing in mind I have two females here in one tank. Your correct that there is no other tanks. So it is leave them both in with the fry for a week after or they go straight back in the main tank once they spit the fry. What is your advice.? Thanks


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Actually that is not entirely true. I have a 5 gallon tank which was used for a Betta a while back if that's of any help at all?


----------



## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

A 5G tank is too small for either of the female fish or the fry so your only option at this time is that once each female spits her fry, move her back to the main tank. The problem is that the remaining female may eat the fry of the 1st female that spit after she spits her own fry.


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

I thought that would be the case. I'm trying to find another tank as I am starting to realise I need a spare one. Actually I think I will need a few tanks as more females start holding. So ideally I would have one female per tank when she is holding. I'm really not confident at all with the idea of stripping. How likely is it that the second female will eat the fry once she spits?


----------



## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

Stripping is not as daunting as it may seem. Have a go.. 
You'll soon find that you won't be able to keep every batch of fry, you just end up running out of tanks/space.


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Maybe I will after I get these two sorted. I'm keen to practise with these two. I've never seen mouthbrooders have babies so it's new to me. I do have a fry/breeding box that floats in my main tank......what if when the first female spits I put her into this in either the main tank or the one they are in now, I can feed her up a little before she returns to the main tank......would that be better than just putting her right back in? Just an idea. Or even I could put her in this a few days before she spits so the fry is caught in it and she can go back in the tank they are in for some food. Just ideas......thanks for your help


----------



## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

I wouldn't worry too much about feeding her up, I like to put the females straight back in. 
That's why stripping is useful, you can strip on day 18 and have her back in the tank rather than waiting. 
Fry boxes are fine, I like to keep my fry in there for 5 days anyway whether it's floating in your Main tank or floating in your fry tank. I find the fry can find the food easier. After 5 days I then tip them in to there new home.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Do not put an adult fish in a breeder net for anything other than an overnight so you can take her to the fish store in the morning.

Do not put fry in a breeder net in the main tank for any reason.

Let the first mom spit and strip the second mom. The only way fry can be together is if they are both spit on same day or you have a separate tank to grow out the 2nd batch a little before mixing.

Both moms into main tank within 24 hours because no alternative. You have 9 other females in main tank for males to spawn with so they should not get picked on.

The second mom will eat the fry if she can. But also the first fry have had a day or two to get oriented, THEY will kill or try to kill the newly spit fry from the second mom.

If you DO feel you need to try the breeder box in the fry tank, it will not kill them for 5 days. For me the fry find the food just fine because I squirt it into the tank near them. They notice the whoosh of the water and realize food has arrived within 24 hours. They don't need to eat day 1 but usually they catch on quick.


----------



## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

My fry boxes are plastic not mesh(net)


----------



## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

Chrislisk said:


> You seem to have answered my next question. How long after the spit the fry do I leave them in the same tank for bearing in mind I have two females here in one tank. Your correct that there is no other tanks. So it is leave them both in with the fry for a week after or they go straight back in the main tank once they spit the fry. What is your advice.? Thanks


If you _really_ want to ensure optimal fry survival, move the female soon after release, but make sure that she is eating well and not being bullied in the main tank. Whether you do that or not, you will want to provide the fry with abundant hiding places- Java moss works well- especially if you have more than one brooding female per tank. I've never had any problem with fry predation by either Mbuna or _Tropheus_, but none of my females has ever been stripped, so they have had the opportunity to learn the complex behaviour set involved in parenting. Good luck.


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

I'll go get some java moss over the next few days for the tank with both holding females for the fry to hid in. I only have rock in the tank no substrate, I do have some deft wood from my other tank if that's any good so assume the moss will be ok on that? Would it be worth netting the first lot of fry into the fry (plastic) floating tank I have in the maternity tank and then when the second female releases I can then have the fry separated or am I over thinking this? Shall I just let both females release and remove soon after they do? I'd like to keep as many fry as possible given my resources and knowledge.


----------



## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

Chrislisk said:


> I'll go get some java moss over the next few days for the tank with both holding females for the fry to hid in. I only have rock in the tank no substrate, I do have some deft wood from my other tank if that's any good so assume the moss will be ok on that? Would it be worth netting the first lot of fry into the fry (plastic) floating tank I have in the maternity tank and then when the second female releases I can then have the fry separated or am I over thinking this? Shall I just let both females release and remove soon after they do? I'd like to keep as many fry as possible given my resources and knowledge.


Well, in that case I'd just add the Java moss, and move the females into the main tank soon after release. I still think that keeping them together for a while is best for all concerned in the long-term, but I understand your enthusiasm for raising these first batches of fry. But remember that if you already have two females that have held to term, they are likely to be even better parents the next time around. Good luck.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I have not noticed any difference in future parenting between fish that are stripped and fish that spit naturally.

That said, I rarely strip and I do notice fry count diminishing within a day or two after the mother spits them.

Just a different experience.


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

I've put some plants that the LFS said will work as well as java moss for fry to hide in. I think my plan will be let the first spit and leave her a few days and feed her what I can and return her to the main tank and go from there. Thanks for your help


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Exciting news! One of the two holding females this morning has babies swimming around her.....the she swiftly sucks them all back in! What an amazing thing to watch! She has spit them out then let them swim just a little way away from her for maybe a minute or two then sucks them back in one by one. She has done this maybe 5/6 times this morning. How long will she continue to do this before they stay out for good so that I can separate her into the main tank? Other female is still holding...thanks


----------



## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

Soon as she spit I'd be putting her straight back into the main tank. If you wait too long you'll have no fry left.


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

When I go near her she collects them up? Are u saying I should get her now?


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Some of us say yes, some of us say no. You are not going to get consensus.


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

As she keeps sucking them back in I have managed to get her into a fry/breeding floating tank in the maternity tank. I'm thinking when she lets them out again they will go down into the fry trap. I'm kinda doing what I think is best here!


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

This did not work! She spit out four and then managed to suck three back Up though the gaps. She won't let them out of her mouth. I have given up on that idea!! So now she is back in the tank with all but 1 fry that I managed to save and isolate in the small fry box. Other than stripping her what can I do as when she sees me coming she sucks them back into her mouth, I have no chance to net her if the fry. For a first time mum her maternal instincts are on point!


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

What's everyone's thoughts on using my syphon to suck out the fry into a bucket, I can then bet the mum and take to main tank and then transfer fry back to the tank again? Will this stress and kill the fry?


----------



## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

You save so much hassle if you net mum from the main tank after 18 days, strip in to the fry tank and return her immediately


----------



## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

I can't see clearly but just be careful that internal filter don't suck your fry in, you'd be better off with a sponge filter


----------



## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

DJRansome said:


> I have not noticed any difference in future parenting between fish that are stripped and fish that spit naturally...


That may (or may not) be true for Mbuna, but the collective experience with mouthbrooding Tanganyikans has been that stripping is counterproductive for future parental behavior both in that generation and in the next. This makes perfect biological sense; it's called 'imprinting.'



DJRansome said:


> ...That said, I rarely strip and I do notice fry count diminishing within a day or two after the mother spits them...


I have never seen that. Perhaps it depends on tank size; my brooding tanks are all 36 or 48 inches. Even in smaller tanks, I have never seen fry predation in _Tropheus_.


----------



## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

Chrislisk said:


> As she keeps sucking them back in I have managed to get her into a fry/breeding floating tank in the maternity tank. I'm thinking when she lets them out again they will go down into the fry trap. I'm kinda doing what I think is best here!


If I read this whole thread from start to finish, my impression is that you're trying to hard, and all this fussing is unnecessary.


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Sir kieth I am trying hard and yes I have a tendency to fuss, just don't want to mess up! So your advice is........just leave them? Let them be as they want to be and when the time is right just remove the females as and when? I really do appreciate your advice


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

@shiftyfox my internal filter has the bottom of my wife's tights over it......no way any fry will get through. The sponge is hard up against the vents anyway so it's all ok. I'm not wanting to strip her. As much as I really want to raise this fry I also want to see the process and how the whole mouthbrooding works. I think watching the two females I'm learning too. One least question as one of the females are letting the fry in and out, there are no egg sacs and they are free swimming at what stage do I add a little food? Thanks


----------



## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

If free swimming i feed straight away, 3 times a day. 
I start off off with NLS grow (powder) but crushed flake is fine. 
Once they are 5-6 weeks old they should be able to eat 0.5mm pellets. 
The two batches I currently have are 5 months old, I feed them 3 times a day, each sitting I like a mixture of flake and half mm NLS 'Thera a' pellets. 
I understand you want to observe and that's great. Next time give stripping a go. 
So far I've done 35 water changes...


----------



## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

I can see the tights now, good idea.


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

So when would you start feeding bearing in mind right now they are all in her mouth? She lets them out when I'm not looking at the tank and when I walk in or go to the tank she collects them back up quick and they are all gone. Shall I just put some in for them for when she lets them out?


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If there are no egg sacs, feed them 3X or 4X daily. They have no other source of nutrition.


----------



## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

Chrislisk said:


> Sir kieth I am trying hard and yes I have a tendency to fuss, just don't want to mess up! So your advice is........just leave them? Let them be as they want to be and when the time is right just remove the females as and when? I really do appreciate your advice


Yes, that's what I'd do. If the female is still taking the fry into her mouth whenever you approach the tank with a net, it's too early. Once she doesn't want to hold the fry anymore, you can move her. It's not the end of the world if you lose a batch or two; they will breed again. Good luck.


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

One female for the last few days has now let her fry go and not sucked them back in, although they have stayed close to her. I plan to put her in the main tank tonight after feeding her for the last few days. My question is how I get her back in the best possible way. My idea was do it late at night when others are all calm to not draw attention to her. Net her into a small tub of the water she is in and mix some back from the main tank, then place her back in. Would this be correct or would anyone do things different? Thanks


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I keep all my tank parameters the same, so I just net her from one tank to the other with no special prep.

I have no luck with the night thing because by the time I get the net in everyone is awake. I just do it in the daytime.

Changing 50% daily on the fry tank...it helps to net her while the water is low.


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Ok thanks for the advice! My parameters are the same but I'll test the temp first to make sure it's similar. Can I check you are advising 50% water changes daily on my fry tank?


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yes, but that should have been happening from the day they were spit. If it has not been, then don't start until you check the parameters.

With daily changes, you would have had pH and nitrates close to your tap water.

Now you have to check your starting place.

BTW matching main tank and maternity tank parameters includes nitrates. You don't want to go to cleaner water suddenly, it can kill the fish.


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

She is back in the main tank now. I mixed some water from the main with the maternity tank to help her adjust just in case. So far she seems fine. I will test the water tomorrow on the maternity tank and go from there. Thanks


----------



## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

So far so good; you certainly have put the effort into this! I must say, I have enjoyed this thread, because it made me recall the excitement of my first Mbuna spawning- _Labeotropheus fuelleborni_, red-top male x OB female. The fry were so cute! That was 1971, and I was living in NJ, within driving distance of the main African importers. A very fun time! :thumb:


----------



## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> BTW matching main tank and maternity tank parameters includes nitrates. You don't want to go to cleaner water suddenly, it can kill the fish.


I wonder if that's why I lost a batch of fry a few months back, every single fry but one died. 
The water parameters were all good. I put about 30% main tank water and 70% fresh water into the fry tank. 
Over two days they stated dying off and I couldn't figure out what was going off.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Good is relative.

My point for OP is you would want maternity tank and fry tank to both have matching nitrate levels. Even full grown fish can be killed if they are used to higher nitrates and you give them a 100% water change.

My solution would have been to change water in the tank with the higher nitrates and then just net the female.

Lake Malawi and Lake Victoria fry I have never had to use main tank water for fry tank water changes. Lake Tanganyika fry...yes.


----------



## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

So before stripping fry into there new tank should that tank contain 100% water from main tank..?


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I have had no problem with doing that for Malawi and Victorians assuming the mother's tank has 10ppm nitrate or less.


----------



## SoccerMbunaAndShak (Apr 7, 2020)

What I do is put the holding female in a 5 gallon plastic tote/box with plenty of very small holes (I think 1/8 inch in diameter). The tote is in the main tank, with a couple of rocks to weigh it down. I put her in the box in the second week. I put some hornwort in the box too, as well as a small terracotta pot, if the fish feels threatened. By the 18th day, I usually put a little food in the box to encourage her to spit, which she usually does. Once I notice the fry in the box, I catch the mother, gently strip her of any remaining fry, and put her back in the main tank. I move the fry immediately after that to a grow out tank. For the grow out tank, I use a big plastic tote which I believe is 55 gallons (4 and a half feet long, a little more than a foot wide). I like this method because the other fish in the tank can see and smell her, so that when I introduce the female back into the tank, it isn't like I'm introducing a new fish, which can lead to aggression. I don't really like stripping too much because it isn't very natural. Nowadays, I just let holding females spit into the tank, which is a lot more budget friendly. As previously mentioned, you will not be able to keep them all.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

So fry are safe from adults in the main tank because the plastic is rigid, as opposed to the usual net boxes where the adults in the main tank crush the fry right through the net and suck the remains through.

Why don't the fry escape through the holes?

Why not put the mom in her own 20G tank to wait for time to spit? Does she seem comfortable being confined to the 5G box for several weeks?


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Not wanting to steer off subject here but first females fry are all in the tank and doing well. Second female still has not spit yet!
I have a 5 gallon empty tank at the moment but........I only got a sponge filter three days ago which I am seeding on the main tank. My question is if the remaining female has not spit by tomorrow will it be ok to move the female to her own tank. I am worried the fry in there will eat the younger fry when they come. I would transfer the seeded sponge filter and add a dose of fluval cycle which I have over the next few days to add the needed bacteria? I assume the bio load for one holding female won't be much? Or should I just leave her in the tank with the fry? Thoughts..... Thanks


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Why not move the fry to the 5G?


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

I could do I guess. So either way it's ok to do with the water and slightly seeded sponge and fluval cycle?


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

But if I did move the female that's ok? Think she is easier to net than the fry


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Quick update. I have 19 demasoni fry. 9 that are about a week and half old and the other that are about 2 days. You can tell the difference between them in just nearly two weeks. Here are pics of the two fry. How long before I can put them together in a grow out tank?


----------



## Bamzam (May 25, 2020)

That's awesome


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Thanks.....will be for sale if your near me lol


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

When the smaller ones are 1/2 inch long. Nice size clutches for demasoni.


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Thanks....you have been really helpful! I have another holding female who I want to get out into a tank, I have managed to get a pair of 15 gallon tanks so I will use them as more maternity tanks. I just need to get my hands on a grow out tank. I'd like to have about 30 fry as that would be a nice amount to sell hopefully.


----------



## Chrislisk (May 16, 2020)

Quick update for you. So..........I have managed to remove 4 females since I started this thread. I have about 40 baby Demasoni ranging from about half inch to new additions yesterday of nine......very small. It's been fun and a little hard work with water changes and feeding. I admit though I absolutely love them. I have tanks all over the house.....even my missus is helping and interested....I think she feels sorry for the poor females lol. I have another female holding right now and still more in my main tank.....it's crazy!!!!! All have spit naturally with no issues. I have many buyers waiting too from LFS to private buyers on the net. It's really great fun watching these grow.


----------

