# Fish Tank Stands Not Car Stands!



## lilredwuck (Jul 30, 2008)

Looking around for a diy for a 125 gallon tank. I really don't want to use 2x4's. I mean take a look at this. 
















This tank doesn't have anything thicker than a 1x except for a little 2x2. 75 gallon Bow front. The bottom is even funnier with a nice THIN piece of ply wood, which is bubbled from water. The only support for the middle of the tank is a notched 1x4 with more 1x on the back and sides. I just really hate to use 2x4 when I know d&$# well that I don't have to. Couldn't I follow this same pattern as the factory did. 2 middles 1x4 supports holding the middle on front and 2 on the back with a couple 1x on the corners? I know, I know, people don't want accidents with water, but if sawdust can hold something up. BTW have you ever seen mdf when wet? LOL 3 times the thickness. 
I am tired of searching for something I can not find. I have probably all the tools needed for the job, just not the plans/ideas part. Or material. Anyway, suggestions would always be welcomed. Oh here is what it USED to sit on. 








Right as of now I have Tiny babies I bought 2 oscars, 2 jacks, and 2 polkadot pictus catfish, 
and they are ok for now, but that is what's slowing me down is the stand. Been trying to find some furniture, dressers,buffets, cabinets, whatever that is 6' long with no success. Or they want 500+ for it ... thanks in advance


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## mightyevil (Oct 23, 2008)

1x4 will be fine, you will need to put something across other than in the top and bottom to prevent the whole thing to fall on its side, does that make sence? That is if you are using 1"x4"s like in the pictures above. Otherwise you can use 3/4" plywood to make a pretty sturdy stand. I have a stand for a 110 gallon which looks very cheap and I can carry it myself very easily. You will have to research and look for some nice plans to accomplish a good stability though, but it is very doable!

Here is my stand...









The material is about a 1/4'' and again, the material is very light.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Did you ever work under a car up on a jack? Some people don't recommend it. Some people get away with it all the time. Same choice here. Go for it if you know it will work. :lol:


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## Cento (Mar 30, 2005)

If I understand correctly, you're asking about stability of wood thinner then 2x4? As long as there is support in the right places, it should be fine. However, in that pic of the bowfront stand, there seems to be decent support on 3 sides, however, the back looks very very poorly supported..

Its not that the tank will unevenly apply pressure and the back support will bow, but the back support will not aid the three sides in supporting the weight of the tank, which can be a recipe for disaster..

As PfunMo mentioned; are you a gambling man? :wink: IMO I would use 2x4 to be safe, not just to avoid flooding, but depending if, when, and how it happens, someone could get hurt.. But I'm not a gambling man. My friends hate playing Risk or Poker with me.. :lol:


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

My nickname was Dick at one time. I was not a gambling man so became known as Nickledick when betting on a straight!


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## mightyevil (Oct 23, 2008)

Go to your LFS and see the stands they have built (you will see that 90% look flimsy), some LFS offer you a lifetime warranty on your tank if you buy the stand as well. Why would they do that? I sure as heck would not offer a warranty and much less a lifetime warranty if I knew that the stand I am selling was a gamble. If you put the wood in the right places it should hold as well as a 2"x4" stand will, as a matter of fact I think that a plywood tank will hold better than a 2"x4" if done properly. :thumb:

Take a look at this for example...









The top picture is of a super built 2"x4" stand, holding hundreds of gallons. If there were an earthquake or something bumping the tank from the sides, it would collapse like the picture in the middle. You can prevent it from doing so by adding cross braces like in the bottom picture.

With a plywood tank you dont need to cross brace it because the plywood panel will do that all by itself. So, if you plan on building the stand with 1"x4"s and plywood if should be okay. If you plan to build one with only 1"x4"s then you will need cross bracing.

Now if you build one with 2"x4"s and plywood, it would hold a Howitzer Tank, live rock, sand, and livestock...and you if you want to snorkel. :lol:


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

This discussion has probably been had at least 100 times on this forum. Actually, probably a lot more.

My conclusion is that neither is wrong if it works. I am not sure why there is such a resistance to using 2x4's. They are not expensive, and they are very easy to work with. Most of the time they are covered by plywood so you don't even see them. Sometimes there seems to be a sense of elitism if your stand is not built with 2x4's?

Having said that, building with 2x4's is definitely not a requirement - not even close. And just because you use 2x4's (or 2x6's, etc) does not mean you have built a worthy stand. There have been stands built completely out of plywood, ones that don't even use 1x4's or 1x2's. And as was mentioned no commercial stand will be built with 2x4's.

However, the commercial companies can safely get away with it, and therefore offer long term warranties, because they know what they are doing. They can analyze the design to know exactly how it will perform for a given length of time under certain loads. While this forum can be very useful and a great place to gather good information, I have never seen anyone do an analysis of their design to prove that it will work. Actually I have never seen an analysis on any design to prove that it work - or that it won't work. In my opinion, this is where most people are more comfortable using 2x4's - or some beefy kind of support structure. It offers a seemingly visual comfort to deal with any concerns or fears the DIY design may have.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

By the way. Some of the bigger tanks actually start approaching the weight of small cars. So by the association of tanks and cars - should it be said that if the tank is close to the weight of a car, then we should be building car stands for tank stands? Haha.


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## mightyevil (Oct 23, 2008)

Breadarwork, couldn't of said it better myself. =D>


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Boils down to what it always does. If you know what you are doing, you are fine. If not, you will pay. When most people look at a stand to buy it makes them feel better if there is a certain amount of overbuild involved. It will sell better when you want to if it is overbuilt rather than the other way. opcorn:


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## Diaster (Aug 17, 2009)

If only we all knew how to weld


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## snorkel2 (Sep 30, 2005)

I just built one from 1x4 pine:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... p?t=199409

2x4s are extreme overkill in building a stand.
Pine has a compression strenght of around 700lbs per inch, so single 1x4 pine board can support massive amounts of weight.

It's actually easier to build a 1x4 stand since the boards are generally much more square and true than construction grade 2x4s, especially if you get the select grade clear pine, which by the way is 4.99 for a 8 foot 1x4.

Later,

Snorkel


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## snorkel2 (Sep 30, 2005)

boredatwork said:


> Most of the time they are covered by plywood so you don't even see them.


I have seen a ton of stands that use a 2x4 frame and then they skin it in 3/4 inch plywood.
The problem with that is the plywood is stronger than the 2x4s.
If you build a 2x4 frame it should be skinned with 1/4 inch veneered plywood.

1x4 or plywood is the best way. You could even build the face frame from oak, then use inexpensive 3/4 inch one side sanded plywood for the sides, back and top, then simply use oak veener to cover the sides, then just apply your choice of trim.
All you need to apply veener is contact cement and a roller, very easy.

Later,

Snorkel


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## snorkel2 (Sep 30, 2005)

mightyevil said:


> If you plan to build one with only 1"x4"s then you will need cross bracing.
> :


This is not exactly true.
You can leave the back open, the bottom shelf and top will provide all the rigidity needed.

I just built a 1x4 pine stand and believe me you could not push it over like you say. 
Even in your example if properly glued and screwed you would not need the cross braces at all.
You would need them if it was all put together with nails and no glue.

Most of the commercial stands from Perfecto, all-glass etc have open backs with no cross bracing. If the stand is properly assembed it's just not needed even with 1x4 pine boards.

I only added the back on mine to reduce the noise from cannister filters etc.

Later,

Snorkel


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## lilredwuck (Jul 30, 2008)

Ok here finally to clear some things up

That tank was made by a company. Which one, I don't know. I am just the guy resanding and staining it. The hole point of this post (when it started) was to know if there are plans out there for anything other than 2x4. The point of the picture was to show you how a COMPANY can make it can't we. I just wanted some simple plans I'll dress it up myself. Took better pictures now. Look at how it is put togher. zThid is the frame ONLY other things going on are the doors. 









SEE that is the stuff I am talking about. This is a great one here










tiredddd jsut gonnap ost more later and snorkel yea I knpw but you give directions like a girl or the brain of a goldfish hey whaat's up bb tomorrw


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## mightyevil (Oct 23, 2008)

snorkel2 said:


> mightyevil said:
> 
> 
> > If you plan to build one with only 1"x4"s then you will need cross bracing.
> ...


You would have to glue them side by side, so true cross bracing is not needed if you take a different approach but then we can argue to use a craig jig for better connections and other methods of joining the wood but then we are getting too technical...point is it can be done many ways with a successful outcome but appropriate architecture is required, I think we have recommended the easiest because generally we are not professional woodworkers.


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

I have the exact same stand under my bowfront. That IS the AGA stand for that tank, so if they say its good and provide the warranty based on it, it must be strong enough. That is why I realized that my 125 DIY was overbuilt compared to thiers. I hemmed and hawed over not using 2x's until I took a good look at the bow stand. Mine is here http://www.cichlidforum.com/phpBB/viewt ... 4e57389ae6

Hope this helps.


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## lilredwuck (Jul 30, 2008)

DrgRcr yes it's the only DIY plans for a tank over 100 Gallons that doesn't use 2x4's that I have found. Could use descriptions of what you did, how, etc. Step by step. The point is that if a commercially produced tank is held together by 1x4 notched in half, with 2 tiny staples holding it. 10 1x4's holding the entire tank all notched out, and held with 2 staples technically wouldn't it work fine on a larger scale with more supports. This is very crude but,








It should work the same way. Yes the tank is bigger and heavier, but wouldn't it be the same? Point is why build so Bulky if it isn't needed? I could use MAX room on the inside for other stuff. Is all the bracing necessary, or are people just worrying way too much. The tank stand is wobbly as sh*t and feels flimsy as can be, but most are made this way. My 90 is the same way. Pine at that too. If they can put 2 1x4's on the sides and 3 on the front and back and it holds couldn't I do the same as well?


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

When I spoke to AGA about a question I had, I was told that the tank only needs to be supported on the edges, although I would have support anywhere there was a brace. I used 3/4 oak ply(back & sides) and 1x3's for mine, all pocket screwed and glued. I hole-sawed openings in the back for hoses/cords. It has a 3/4 pine top and inside floor, which when tied into the framework, is going to add a ton of rigidity. It is solid as a rock and is easily moved with 2 people. Your front frame sketch is basically what mine is.


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## snorkel2 (Sep 30, 2005)

mightyevil said:


> You would have to glue them side by side, so true cross bracing is not needed


actually for the back you would would not have to glue them side by side.

When you glue and screw(either pocket or tonailed) you have 3 1/2 inches of flat surface on the top and bottom, if you have 1 on each end and one in the middle, you will not be able to push it over. Like I said if it's just nailed that could happen and that's because nails will bend.


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## snorkel2 (Sep 30, 2005)

lilredwuck said:


> DrgRcr yes it's the only DIY plans for a tank over 100 Gallons that doesn't use 2x4's that I have found. Could use descriptions of what you did, how, etc. Step by step. The point is that if a commercially produced tank is held together by 1x4 notched in half, with 2 tiny staples holding it. 10 1x4's holding the entire tank all notched out, and held with 2 staples technically wouldn't it work fine on a larger scale with more supports. This is very crude but,
> It should work the same way.


You are exactly right it will work the same way. 
The weight of the water is distributed through the bottom aquarium frame to your stand.
There is not 1500 pounds exerting itself on the stand in any one place.

Later,

Snorkel.


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## snorkel2 (Sep 30, 2005)

lilredwuck said:


> and snorkel yea I knpw but you give directions like a girl or the brain of a goldfish hey whaat's up bb tomorrw


Like a girl eh?

Anyway I didn't give any directions. I would like to see a goldfish make a stand like the one I did 

Later,

Snorkel


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## mightyevil (Oct 23, 2008)

DrgRcr said:


> When I spoke to AGA about a question I had, I was told that the tank only needs to be supported on the edges, although I would have support anywhere there was a brace.


This is true for glass tanks, not acrylic...Acrylic will need support everywhere. Can be achieved by using a piece of plywood on the top of the stand. :thumb:


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

lilredwuck said:


> Point is why build so Bulky if it isn't needed? I could use MAX room on the inside for other stuff. Is all the bracing necessary, or are people just worrying way too much.


Much of the earlier discussion was addressing this assumption. Let me try it again.

If you worked at a company that made fish stands, you would have some level of analysis (whether based on computer simulation or experience) to know whether a design is good or not. Coupled with that is cost. When you are making hundreds of stands, even a few cents per part can make a big difference. So you want to minimize cost and labor while maximizing design integrity.

For the regular guy building a fish stand in his garage he does not do this. I have no way of proving whether my stand built of out of 2x4's is overbuilt, underbuilt, or just right. The same uncertainty applies to a plywood stand, or even a 4x4 stand. Because of this uncertainty I want to add margin on top of a commercial design to make sure that I am compensating for any structural mistake I might be making. The key here is that while this margin is comforting, it is certainly not necessary.

On the flip side, I can guarantee you that I could build a stand out of 2x12's that would not hold a tank. So the key is not the size of the wood, but the design of the stand.

I think your method of observing the commercial stand and trying to build based of that is a good idea - but its not foolproof. You still have no way of knowing that it will work as I am guessing you do not have the knowledge, experience, or tools to prove it. Without the ability to prove a design, some people feel safer by adding lots of margin to err on the side of caution. So for most people the objective is not to copy a commercial design, since the average person doesn't have enough knowledge to asses the risk in doing so.

So again, there is a reason why companies build lighter stands, and there is also a reason that most DIY designs tend to overbuild.

However, to answer the question with a question, having said that you could build a stand with smaller than 2x4's - what is the advantage of doing so? It is still not clear why using 2x4's is a bad thing. Also, a 2x4 measures only 1.5" on the smaller width. So from a clearance perspective there is not even much gained by going to a 1x4 or plywood.


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## snorkel2 (Sep 30, 2005)

boredatwork said:


> However, to answer the question with a question, having said that you could build a stand with smaller than 2x4's - what is the advantage of doing so? It is still not clear why using 2x4's is a bad thing. Also, a 2x4 measures only 1.5" on the smaller width. So from a clearance perspective there is not even much gained by going to a 1x4 or plywood.


Biggest difference is it's much easier to get everything square with select grade 1x4 pine(which is actually 3/4 x 3 1/2) or plywood. Also going the non 2x4 route provides a much more professional looking cabinet in my opinion.

That all said there is nothing wrong with using 2x4s. All that matters in the end is if it works.

Later,

Snorkel


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## lilredwuck (Jul 30, 2008)

I would call it more of a personal preference, and just looks cleaner in my opinion. I know you didn't give directions snorkel, that is why I suggested you should! So people "like" me can copy you and claim victory for ourselves. LOL. Anyway, where did you find the specs on the wood? Would a longer base (6') be more stable than a 4' stand made the same exact way? I have made 2x4 stands in the past. Used MDF to skin it. Nice and smooth, clean looking outside, luckily it was only for a 29 gallon. The thing is with all the questions though they may have been answered elsewhere already, I basicly got tired of looking after a couple of nights with no real answers. The other thing as well is safety. If I didn't care about the safety part of it I would just slap together a stand I liked and forget about it. That is the reason for the questions. I want to make SURE it is going to hold. Grant it, this will be going in the basement on a concrete floor, but who needs the extra worry. That is my main concern. That is why I am asking for so much information from a BIG group of people. Someone out there must be smarter than me! That is a lot of weight to hold, I know


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## lilredwuck (Jul 30, 2008)

boredatwork said:


> I think your method of observing the commercial stand and trying to build based of that is a good idea - but its not foolproof. You still have no way of knowing that it will work as I am guessing you do not have the knowledge, experience, or tools to prove it.


Ouch....knowledge is learned through the trial and error process as well as learning things from other people, along with research and more research. The experience part comes from building stands in the past, and who has more experience than a forum full of old farts..J/k I am willing to learn from others experiences on what works and doesn't. People will always have their opinions, but I am just wanting the cold hard facts. Tools to prove it would work? To an extent no, but as stated copying a commercial design, which WOULD be built MUCH better than a commercially made stand. For the simple fact they have tested their design, which would be built much better in my hands then someone getting paid to do it. I.E. 2 staples? half a one by? Pine with knot holes? There are much better wood materials as well as fasteners out there. I am in a sense answering my own questions at this point it looks like. Maybe you just had to make the spark to light the fire. LOL. The more information I get, Like DIRECTIONS, (cough...snorkel, dgrrcr... cough) the better I feel about building something some one else has already tried and successfully made


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## snorkel2 (Sep 30, 2005)

lilredwuck said:


> Would a longer base (6') be more stable than a 4' stand made the same exact way?


Sure it would be more stable, but would it look good holding a 4 foot tank(75/90/110)?

I currently have a 75 gallon on a skinned 2x4 stand I built back in 2005 and it's stable as heck and that's because the 75s are 18 inches deep. Now a 55 gallon stand made to the depth of the tank would not be as stable.

If you copy the design of that bowfront you are working on and modify for a standard tank you will not have any problems.

It's all about weight distribution with these stands, and you can find the exact compression strength of pine on google, it's around 700- 750lbs per inch. That's why those All-Glass pine stands look so cheaply made but can easily support 1500lbs of water.

The other important thing is to have a miter saw and a stand that has a stop block so you can make repetitive cuts of the same length.

I only did the complete 1x4 stand because I did not have a reliable and accurate way to cut up a full sheet of plywood.

Take a look at this thread:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... p?t=197773

It's the best way to go for any size tank and if you can cut the plywood panels accurately it's easy to put together. You could also use the less expensive 3/4 inch plywood that has one side sanded and then veneer it with oak. The veneer comes in rolls and is fairly inexpensive and can be applied with contact cement and a roller.

Later,

Snorkel


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## snorkel2 (Sep 30, 2005)

lilredwuck said:


> The more information I get, Like DIRECTIONS, (cough...snorkel, dgrrcr... cough) the better I feel about building something some one else has already tried and successfully made


Well, it takes a lot of time to do complete detailed directions, which I don't have 

You should be able to replicate mine or dgrcr stand just from the pictures we provided.

Find a lumber yard that can cut the plywood for you and guarantee accuracy, then invest in a pocket hole jig and you will be good to go. Building a stand is not complicated at all, just take your time and make sure your cuts are square and whatever design you choose will turn out fine.

If you have a all-glass tank use this to get the outside dimensions:
http://www.aqueonproducts.com/assets/011/19784.pdf

for example if you need to build a stand for a 75/90 gallon you would need your stand to be 48.5 inches wide and 18.5 inches deep. The tank will then simply sit on the edges of your stand, no top required. You can of course add a top to your design, but for a glass tank it's just not needed.

Later,

Snorkel


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

question, why do you not want to use 2X4's theyaren't very expensive, and sturdy as all get out, the fish tank is easily the heaviest thing inside most of our houses and a 2x4 frame goes a long way in support, not to mention the thickness allows for shorter boards and just a hint, a higher thickness to length ratio means more strength

it's cheap to spit out sturdy 2x4 frames and then just come up with a nice paneling, I used old black shelves and attached them, i think next time around i'll break out the router and make a nice planked panneling


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## lilredwuck (Jul 30, 2008)

I would call it more of a preference. It is just what I like. Nothing against 2x4's, but I like the look of the skinnier 1x4's. Not too much for paste on vaneer either. Never lasts. The plywood would be harder for me to cut as limited space, and no table saw as of now. Plus then you have to cover the rough part of the plywood as well. I just like the look od the 1x4 better.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

yeah but you don't see the 2x4's it's just the support frame


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## LampLover (Feb 19, 2003)

2x4s is overengineering. I have a 240 thats 8' and the stand is made of 1" material. 1x2's and 1x4s etc.

If it's made correctly you don't need anything bigger.


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## Xenoterranos (Mar 14, 2007)

DrgRcr said:


> I have the exact same stand under my bowfront. That IS the AGA stand for that tank, so if they say its good and provide the warranty based on it, it must be strong enough. That is why I realized that my 125 DIY was overbuilt compared to thiers. I hemmed and hawed over not using 2x's until I took a good look at the bow stand. Mine is here http://www.cichlidforum.com/phpBB/viewt ... 4e57389ae6
> 
> Hope this helps.


Also here to say I had the exact same stand. Mine was purchased used (5 years old at the time) from a friend, and I just sold it off to another firend after having it myself for ~3 years. So, after almost 10 years, and something like 6 cross-city moves, it's still super strong. I'd say 1x4's are fine. If you're building a really long stand, 1x6's are also an option.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

LampLover said:


> 2x4s is overengineering.


I disagree on a technicality. No one is _engineering_ anything here. Unless guessing is a legitimate engineering method.



LampLover said:


> 2x4s is overengineering. I have a 240 thats 8' and the stand is made of 1" material. 1x2's and 1x4s etc.
> 
> If it's made correctly you don't need anything bigger.


How do you know that 1x2's and 1x4's aren't overengineered? I am sure you could build a stand with 3/4" or 1/2" wood. So then should I say that 1x4's are overengineering? And what does that even mean anyway. I don't understand the implications of that statement.

I don't think anyone is saying you must use 2x4's. In fact I think the point has been repeated many times that you absolutely do not have to use them. But the question remains - what is wrong with using them?

Obviously I would not disagree with any reason why not to use them, but the connotation seems to be that using them is unnecessary or primitive - and that I will disagree with.


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

Yes, it is all a matter of preference, ultimately. I think the main advantage of 1x is weight. For some reason I keep thinking that 1x doesn't bow/twist as much as a 2x, but I'm not sure on that.


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## snorkel2 (Sep 30, 2005)

DrgRcr said:


> For some reason I keep thinking that 1x doesn't bow/twist as much as a 2x, but I'm not sure on that.


Depends on the quality of the 1x4, at most lumber yards they come in 3 grades with "select" being the best knot free type.

The one I built was with select grade and it's far more square and true than even the best 2x4s.

Later,

Snorkel


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## snorkel2 (Sep 30, 2005)

boredatwork said:


> I am sure you could build a stand with 3/4" or 1/2" wood.


1x4s are actually 3/4 x 3 1/2 inch.

You could easily build one out of 1/2 inch Oak planks, those are extremly strong.
Pine compression is around 700lbs per inch so even 1x4s could be considered "overbuilding".

Later,

Snorkel


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## spotmonster (Nov 23, 2006)

Click on the link below in my profile. Take a look at the 8ft 160 gal wood tank I purchased. The stand is made out of 1" plywood and nothing else. Built like a tank and I can move it by myself. It's a great design.


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## Stickzula (Sep 14, 2007)

I can buy 2x4 studs for less than $2, a quality 1x4 (one that has tight grain, no knots, and is straight) costs almost $5. So doing the math, 2x the wood costs 1/2 the price. I don't have to buy a fancy 2x4, because it is strong enough with knots and if it is crooked, I can't say the same for a cheap 1x4. I have used the cheap 1x4's for other projects an I would NOT trust them for a tank stand. However, I don't see a problem using the 'quality' $5 1x4's. If you want to build a solid stand that is lighter than a 2x4 setup, it is hard to beat a 3/4" plywood stand. Though it is often not as cheap as a 2x4 stand, it is comparably strong and is nowhere near as bulky. If properly designed, a 1x4 stand can be a more than adequate replacement for a 2x4 "car" stand.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

when it comes to hundreds of pounds of water and money and fish i would never call anyhting overengineering i call it safe, plus i have a dog and really wanted soemhting sturdy to make sure he wouldn't knowck it over


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