# Can I keep Discus fish as a beginner



## bullzi (Mar 20, 2012)

Hi guyz,

I am totally new to fishkeeping. I am going to set up a 48 * 20 * 20 tank. I have been told that it is almost impossible to keep Discus as a beginner and I got suggestions to keep Angels as a beginner. Most probably, I will start with Angels but still want to know about Discus. Is it really that hard to keep them?

Thanks in advance.


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## sirdavidofdiscus (Dec 8, 2006)

As with most hobbies beginners are not willing to make the investment in time and money to keep discus healthy. That is why they are not recommended for beginners. Not really hard but difficult. Discus need a few things that all fish require, but discus are less tolerant if things get out of whack. 
Water changes-- should change 20-30% twice a week with discus make that 30-40% 4 times a week.
Gravel vaccum-- normally once every 2 weeks. with discus every time you change water. Best is to have bare bottom for discus so you can see the gunk to vaccum up.
Temperature-- most tropical fish around 75f discus 82-85f too early for me to convert to c
pH-- most hobby fish 7.2-7.7 discus 6.0-6.5 most importantly to keep pH stable though remember pH is a geometric progression so 0.1 is 10 times different
Disposition peaceful even though they get fairly large they are not aggressive, and are easily intimidated. So any bully fish will stress them out. best to keep smaller fish like cardinal tetras with them.
tank size-- need 36 liters per discus and should be kept in groups of at least 5. So if the measurements you gave are in inches 6-7 discus would be fine.
Angels like nearly the same parameters but are much more tolerant of wider ranges. and are about 1/10 the price which is why they are recommended over discus for beginners.


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## bullzi (Mar 20, 2012)

Hey, thanks for the clean and clear answer. It has got almost everything that I need to know. Just some additional queries:

1. 30-40% waterchange/week is a must to keep discus? Won't 50% waterchange twice a week 
suffice?
2. If I plan to go bare bottom tank, I will be able to control water quality more efficiently?
3. Cost is definitely an issue, that is why can I begin with 2-3 discus?
4. How often you feed the discus? Would 2-3 times/day be sufficient? Less food means lees 
pollution right?
5. How much time should take for maintenance everyday?
6. Last but not least, if I go for Angel fish right now, later I can change to Discus in say 1 year?

I just want to say that I want to make my fish happy, I dont want them to be contestants in any competition.


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## sirdavidofdiscus (Dec 8, 2006)

Water changes are a must. You can do larger changes twice a week but personnally I don't like changing that much at one time I prefer smaller more frequent smaller changes.
Bare bottom makes it easier to find and remove the debris. Substrate hids the junk, even though it does add surface area for cycling bacteria to live. If it were a display use a substrate just make sure it gets vaccumed and churned up regularly. Possibly get some kuhlii loaches or certain types of catfish that will dig through the substrate.
I'd save money up and get at least 5. You can go with 3 but they are much more comfortable with larger groups. Really don't recomend less than 5.
3-5 times a day is fine for juvenills. 2-3 times a day will work for adults. Just what the eat in 5 minutes though anymore will create too much uneaten food.
Maintenance should only take 15-30 minutes a day average. If you do 50% water changes twice a week allow 45minutes or more on those days. But on the off days there will almost nothing other than observation, which is why we keep fish anyway.
If you do go with angels now switching to discus won't be that tough. People have kept discus and angels together without trouble, but I've had angels crowd out the discus so that the discus can't eat. Hate to see the fish slowly starve.


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## bullzi (Mar 20, 2012)

sirdavidofdiscus said:


> Water changes are a must. You can do larger changes twice a week but personnally I don't like changing that much at one time I prefer smaller more frequent smaller changes.
> Bare bottom makes it easier to find and remove the debris. Substrate hids the junk, even though it does add surface area for cycling bacteria to live. If it were a display use a substrate just make sure it gets vaccumed and churned up regularly. Possibly get some kuhlii loaches or certain types of catfish that will dig through the substrate.
> I'd save money up and get at least 5. You can go with 3 but they are much more comfortable with larger groups. Really don't recomend less than 5.
> 3-5 times a day is fine for juvenills. 2-3 times a day will work for adults. Just what the eat in 5 minutes though anymore will create too much uneaten food.
> ...


It is really really helpful post, thanks for all the efforts you have put in. I will keep your suggestions in mind. I will change water thrice in a week may be 30% max each time. I wanna get it started right away with my angel fish to make it a habit.

BTW, I have office from say 10 a.m. - 7 p.m. and reach home after 8:30 p.m. Is it a suitable time to feed my fish and then do a water change at about 2 hours later?


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## sirdavidofdiscus (Dec 8, 2006)

As long as it is still light in the tank. At night the fish kind of drift near the bottom kind of "sleepswimming" so they won't eat then


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## jd lover (Mar 11, 2011)

3 times a week at 30% may not be enough depending on your tank size, size of discus, number of discus, and how often and what you feed them.


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## jd lover (Mar 11, 2011)

heres a write up i wrote for another member it might give you a better understanding

here's a detailed write up incase you (or others are interested)

discus immune systems gets better as they age. they builts their immune systems between the free swimming stage and up to roughly 4": and even later on, but at the 4" mark (give or take) they are then consider hardy. roughly from the free-swimming stage to the four inch mark should take about 6 months 3 months for 1"-3" and another 3 months to reach 4" from 3" and they slow down after that. At 9 months the shuld be roughly 5". 6" should be reach after a year and a half of age. 7"+ is over 2 years. now keep in mind different strain grows at different rate. another thing is thatthe weaker straing such as albino may never even reach 7 inch. the stronger strain such as blue strains has potential to reach 8 inch under correct care. the growth rate and max size also has to do with the breeding line.

at a young age discus needs multiple feedings a day of food with high protein. most feed their juvies food that has around 50% protein and some even feeds food that contains 65% protein. juvies discus (roughly the size of 1"-3") requires up to 6+ feeding a day. with that many feeding demand HUGE daily water change. some recommends daily others recommend 2x a day of ATLEAST 50% breeders will even drain their tank 100%! (i dont recmend this as i have never done it and am afraid to. but breeders in asia and germany has done this and will continue too and their quality speaks for itself)

most keep juvie in a bare bottom tank for multiple reason. it makes it easier for the fish to find the food. tank that has gravel in it, food gets lost through the cracks, certain food can blend in with sand. its easier to see where you need to siphone and what needs to be siphone. once again food/fecal that gets trap in the crack of the gravel or blend in with sand will fowl your water. its alot easier to clean and if its easier to clean it chance are you will be more likely to clean it.

a recomended rule of thumb is 10g of water per adult discus with taller tanks better than longer. a grow out tank of a bare 55g is fit for 10 discus to comfortably grow out in (not comfortable to house as adults). picture a cd swimming in your tank and you will get a rough idea of how a full grown discus will look. its better to grow discus out in smaller tank appose to bigger ones are debateable. one sure reason that experts agrees on its tht with smaller tank the discus can find the food alot easier than appose to a bigger tank. my opinion on the matter is also that on smaller tanks theres less water to change so you tend not to "put it off till tomorrow". also its cheaper to medicate a small tank if issues were to arise than big ones.

im sure there are things I've forgot but im writing this off the top of my head if you anyone have question feel free to pm me.

i am no expert by anymeans i just share my personal opinions and things that have worked for me and many others. i get my advise from kenny cheung and hans 2 well known hobbiest and suppliers of the discus world. i know many may not agreed with some of my advice but these are thing i have follow and have had great succes and my discus can speak for that.


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## aquariam (Feb 11, 2010)

bullzi said:


> Hey, thanks for the clean and clear answer. It has got almost everything that I need to know. Just some additional queries:
> 
> 1. 30-40% waterchange/week is a must to keep discus? Won't 50% waterchange twice a week
> suffice?


This is why you can't have discus. In the post above you he says most beginners aren't willing to invest the time necessary, then in your first response you try to get out of the correct water change frequency.

Don't inflict yourself on discus when you're starting out it won't be fair to either of you.


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## bullzi (Mar 20, 2012)

^

I just wanted to know how much time I have to invest daily to keep my fish happy. I can feed my fish thrice and even do water changes alternate days if it takes less than 1 hour to do so.

I am starting with angels and then I will keep discus say about 1 year afterwards.

Also, my response does not imply that as a beginner, I won't invest proper time for maintenacne, how did you conclude like that? What I wanted to know is if partial water changes made twice a week is sufficient to clear water, why should one change water every alternate day? But if it is not sufficient, I would invest more time in water changing. Thats all.

I would not do anything careless to let my fish stress and die.


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## matt121966 (Mar 6, 2012)

classic[/img]


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## jd lover (Mar 11, 2011)

bullzi said:


> ^
> 
> I just wanted to know how much time I have to invest daily to keep my fish happy. I can feed my fish thrice and even do water changes alternate days if it takes less than 1 hour to do so.
> 
> ...


discus arent minimum maintenance fish. they requires the BEST water quality. just to give you an idea i do 80-90% DAILY water change on my 125 and i still feel its not enough. if you dont want to invest time into caring for them properly i hope youre more than willing to invest money into meds for them.


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## neutrino (May 4, 2007)

Good decision imo to get some general fishkeeping experience before diving right into discus. While the difficulty in keeping discus is often overstated, they're not the fish I'd choose for initially learning my basic fishkeeping chops.

Meanwhile, rather than tell you my personal opinions on the subject, I'd suggest doing some research on discus keeping and on the fish themselves. There's a lot of variation of methods and opinion among discus keepers over even the basics, such as what ph they need, water change routine, bare tank or substrate, plants or no plants, tankmates or no tankmates, or which fish to have as tankmates, whether they can be kept with angelfish, what to feed. (Especially beef heart or no beef heart-- not to debate the subject here, but I'll tell you that in many years of fishkeeping no fish of mine has ever seen beef heart; you can debate what it does or doesn't do to fish, but what I know as a fact is they can do quite well without it. Whether you decide to use beef heart or not is up to you, but don't let anyone convince you it's a necessity.)

Discus keepers (including me) can be very opinionated, often based on a combination of what _they've _been told and their own experiences, but if you spend some time on one or more dedicated discus forums you can get a much better overview of the range of approaches that can actually be successful and figure out what makes the most sense to you or what best suits what you really want out of keeping them.

I know from experience there's more than one approach to successfully keeping discus. I started keeping them in the days before the internet, asked for advice with experienced fishkeepers and read some books on them and started out scrupulously doing what I was told, but with more experience I learned that some of the 'rules' I was told do not really apply. For one thing, if you do some research on their natural habitat, discus come from a wider variety of temperatures and water conditions than most people realize. Same goes with their feeding habits-- for example, do some research and you'll find that, while they do have the enzymes to break down proteins, in the wild they're hardly the strict carnivores some people make them out to be (in fact, here's a link to a scientific paper you might find interesting, including the fact that their natural diet includes algae, plant materials and aquatic invertebrates-- it sometimes amazes me that it's often the same discus keepers who insist on reproducing what they believe are their natural water conditions who also insist on feeding them a very unnatural diet... ok, so a little bit of my personal opinion sneaked in here  ).
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/ni/v6n4/v6n4a08.pdf

I can also tell you that what they really need in the way of water changes can be greatly affected by how or what you feed them. In fact, overall difficulty of keeping them can be affected by how or what you feed, size of your tank, quality of your water source and the quality of the fish you purchase, including how well or poorly bred they are, conditions they were reared in, extent to which a particular strain is over-bred, etc.


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## bullzi (Mar 20, 2012)

neutrino said:


> Good decision imo to get some general fishkeeping experience before diving right into discus. While the difficulty in keeping discus is often overstated, they're not the fish I'd choose for initially learning my basic fishkeeping chops.
> 
> Meanwhile, rather than tell you my personal opinions on the subject, I'd suggest doing some research on discus keeping and on the fish themselves. There's a lot of variation of methods and opinion among discus keepers over even the basics, such as what ph they need, water change routine, bare tank or substrate, plants or no plants, tankmates or no tankmates, or which fish to have as tankmates, whether they can be kept with angelfish, what to feed. (Especially beef heart or no beef heart-- not to debate the subject here, but I'll tell you that in many years of fishkeeping no fish of mine has ever seen beef heart; you can debate what it does or doesn't do to fish, but what I know as a fact is they can do quite well without it. Whether you decide to use beef heart or not is up to you, but don't let anyone convince you it's a necessity.)
> 
> ...


Exactly what I was looking for, your reply is the best so far. I have come to know already that personal preferences vary from man to man regarding fish keeping. That is why I have posted in the forum all of my queries.

I have already ordered two books - Trophy Discus and Baron's manual on Discus. I hope I would have some knowledge to start up with Discus in next 2-3 months.



Just to add on - I have received my filter today - Eheim 2217 from local store, it really looks nice and bulky, and have enuff power to drive my approx. 68 gallon upcoming tank.

I have already found out that feeding beef heart to fish is making water very much polluted than feeding other foods, btw, the more protein diet a fish gets, his/her extracts will contain more NH3, so more water changes needed to cope up with increasing nitrate levels.

As you have already said, discus natural diet does not rely mainly on meaty foods, so I can give a try with not feeding too much protein diet. I hope I would be able to control the water parameters more in that case.



@jd

You change 90% water daily and still don't feel it is sufficient, I know here a discus keeper who use to change 100% water daily. But still, lot of his fishes die, do you think making huge water changes so frequently can unstable the eco system inside the aquarium?


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## jd lover (Mar 11, 2011)

bullzi said:


> neutrino said:
> 
> 
> > Good decision imo to get some general fishkeeping experience before diving right into discus. While the difficulty in keeping discus is often overstated, they're not the fish I'd choose for initially learning my basic fishkeeping chops.
> ...


i know breeders in melasia who drains theirs 100% multiple times a day and let me tell you their show quality runs for $800+ per fish. i dont feel it throws off the eco system because the less nirates the better. what will throw it off is if you skip a water change and and your reading can go through the roof (depend on how heavily stocked you are). i have been doing 90% water changes for as long as i can remember and let me tell you NOTHING ever goes wrong in this tank.

in the wild (yes yes the domestic discus are FAR from wilds) they get constant water changes. =p

with all the nifty gadgets we have to simplify water changing process there is no excuse NOT to change water.


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## neutrino (May 4, 2007)

> I have already found out that feeding beef heart to fish is making water very much polluted than feeding other foods


Exactly. What you feed your fish can affect water quality and the extent of maintenance required to keep them healthy. The argument can _always _be made that in a wild environment they enjoy far greater water volume and turnover than in an aquarium, but that same argument would apply the vast majority of fish we keep, not just discus. In effect, someone could recommend changing changing 100% of your water 1000 times a day and you won't win an argument with them, making an argument pointless.

But, while I'm not going to start making a lot of recommendations based on what worked for me, when everyone has their own approach, I can tell you that I did _very _well with discus for a number of years with virtually zero health issues (aside from discus I would try and rescue that were already sick and emaciated), using an approach that was simpler and less labor intensive than what I typically see some people recommending. So, at the same time that you can never win an argument with someone who thinks you have to do a million water changes, I also know as an absolute fact that there's an approach to feeding and keeping them that doesn't necessitate the stringent requirements some people feel are needed to make a success of them.

Do discus need regular and sufficient water changes? No question about it. But the frequency and % of water changes needed are subject to a lot of factors that can vary with different setups, your approach to feeding them, and other factors affecting the overall health of the environment you provide them. Again, I think doing enough reading to get kind of a cross section of the differing approaches of equally successful discus keepers can help you figure out how you want to approach it.



> As you have already said, discus natural diet does not rely mainly on meaty foods, so I can give a try with not feeding too much protein diet. I hope I would be able to control the water parameters more in that case.


The thing here is a fish's protein requirements aren't always obvious from their typical natural diet. All fish have optimal protein requirements for growth, spawning, etc. and protein requirements are generally higher for growing fish than for adults. Doesn't matter whether that protein is coming from algae, vegetation, crustaceans, insects, or other fish. So it makes sense to stay reasonably close to their optimal requirements. Going way under or way over can affect growth and health. For example, this discus study concluded that protein up to 50% improved growth, over 50% actually slowed their growth. This is much the same as studies done with other fish, with only the percentages varying somewhat between different species of fish: 
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2095.2000.00151.x/abstract

Here's another reference with some information about their natural habitat and diet.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa166


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## jd lover (Mar 11, 2011)

im not gonna debate what works and what dont. all im gonna say is if the way breeders are doing things arent broken why change it? if you want to cut corners and not do water change wich has been simplified through automatic and pythons and hoses discus should not be something you look into.

discus are kings of the aquarium and should be treated as such. if youre not willing to commit then dont bother.


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## aquariam (Feb 11, 2010)

I'd stick with Angelfish for a couple of years. They're less demanding and really nice high quality angels are elegant and pleasant to watch. I've never felt the desire to go to Discus as I think angels are the nicer looking fish. I've been keeping fish for 10 years but I'm not hard core in the least.


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

jd lover said:


> discus are kings of the aquarium


It sounds more like they're princesses... look great, but high maintenance. 

Another reason why I love my Africans


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## jd lover (Mar 11, 2011)

vann59 said:


> jd lover said:
> 
> 
> > discus are kings of the aquarium
> ...


sounds more like my niece which explains why she loves them so much :lol:


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## neutrino (May 4, 2007)

jd lover said:


> im not gonna debate what works and what dont. all im gonna say is if the way breeders are doing things arent broken why change it? if you want to cut corners and not do water change wich has been simplified through automatic and pythons and hoses discus should not be something you look into.
> 
> discus are kings of the aquarium and should be treated as such. if youre not willing to commit then dont bother.


I'm not sure there's a debate here? The OP has already said he'd be willing to change water every other day, up to an hour a day, not unusual for many successful discus keepers and already more than what many others do. As you said yourself: _3 times a week at 30% may not be enough depending on your tank size, size of discus, number of discus, and how often and what you feed them._ In principle I've said exactly the same thing, it depends on your individual set up and what and how you feed them, and, primarily to avoid a debate, I've refrained from giving many specifics, simply saying I had a lot of success, but there are different opinions on many areas of discus keeping and it would pay to do some research into what other successful discus keepers have done.

As far as following what many discus breeders do, that might be true if you're keeping pairs in bare 29 gal tanks, constantly feeding them beef heart mix and primarily trying to achieve high fry production. But not all discus keepers are doing that or are even interested in doing that and there's a big difference between such a breeder approach and keeping them in a large, well filtered display tank, possibly biotope, possibly with turf scrubbing or any of several other means of keeping water quality pristine with lower maintenance, and with the primary goal of simply enjoying the fish and then feeding and caring for them accordingly.

No one is saying don't do water changes or _I'm not going to do water changes_ and it's only reasonable to point out that the exact extent of water changes will depend on a lot of factors, just as you mentioned yourself. If I had kept mine in 29 gal tanks and fed them heavily on beef heart, believe me, my water changes would have reflected that. But I kept them in larger tanks, had a very high quality source of water, supplemented my filter system with other natural means of maintaining water quality, fed more according to their natural diet, and my water was pristine and nitrates very low. So, without stating the specifics of my maintenance, I can tell you my discus were large and brilliant and also relatively easy to maintain.

Still, I'm not promoting my own or any other approach to keeping discus. As with any fish, the bottom line is do your research and plan accordingly and that's all that I think is happening here.


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## jd lover (Mar 11, 2011)

i know what works for you might nt works for others but he is a beginer so i think theadvice should reflect that. its simple that discus needs clean water. as a beginner water change is the simpliest way to get clean water to the discus.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

OP: I know you've gotten like 3 different opinions on what you should do already, so I'm not going to add anything. All I'm going to say is that the only way you'll find out what works is to try it. Depending on where you got your discus from, the method that works best for those fish could be worlds apart from what worked for me, or anyone else. These days there are probably about as many ways to keep discus as there are strains of discus, so experiment a little, and find out what works best. One thing is for sure though: discus do not do well in dirty water; keep up with your water changes.


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## bullzi (Mar 20, 2012)

^

Thanks for the replies to all of you. I think I should get my tank ready first, post some pics and then ask for additional suggestions regarding the decor/aquascaping.


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## matt121966 (Mar 6, 2012)

can hardly wait


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## bullzi (Mar 20, 2012)

^

Thanks for your willingness to view my tank set up. Hope you will be less sarcastic from next time onwards.


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