# In wall aquarium....



## 69183 (Apr 25, 2011)

OK, so I just signed the contract to purchase a new (brand new) condo. Close and move in in about 30 days. So currently I have a 75 gallon African Cichlid tank at my house and I've kinda figured out where to put it, but then I had an even better idea. I was looking a the floor plan last night and went out and measured the space indicated below (in red) and I was thinking of building an in wall aquarium, about 84"x30"x30" (dimensions might change a little) where the front and the side facing the stairs would be visible.

Concerns, at the above dimensions I'm sitting at about 372 gallons and 2800lbs of just water. That's not including the weight of the walls, stand, aquarium, equipment, fish, rocks, etc.... This area is on the second floor. I'm going to be sending an e-mail to the builder to see if the structure can hold the weight, but what do you guys think? This is a brand new condo, and I know the construction quality is good (same builder that built my house).

My other question is this, I was thinking of making both the front and side wall (facing the stairs) kinda of like a secret passage way door. So the whole wall would open like a door, the side door for feeding, water changes and basic maintenance, the front wall for cleaning and major maintenance. Has anyone done anything like this before?

I'm also thinking of putting the sump (which I'm not entirely sure how this all works, so I need to do some reading) down in the garage on the first floor, in the event that it overflows it just spills into the garage. There is a utility chase right by the stairs where the plumbing and ventilation comes up from the first floor to the second and third floors. I was thinking running the plumbing for the sump under the floor boards to the utility chase which drops down into the utility closet with the water heater and furnace and then out to the garage where there is a small storage area that a good sized sump would fit. I'm assuming I'm going to need a fairly large pump for the return, probably not as big on the input to the sump as gravity will help.


















Ideas?? Comments???


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## Gunjee (Sep 2, 2008)

I don't think you need to go as far as adding a sump in the garage area. A sump underneath the tank will be fine. You don't have to worry about it overflowing as long as you set it up right. Most people will drill a hole in the return line to prevent a siphon. That means that if your pump stops pumping water up to the tank (due to a power outage, etc.), you don't want the water to go in reverse back down towards the sump. The hole allows air in the line which will prevent that. As a back up, you can also put a check valve within the line, which will only allow the water to go in one direction.

I do not have much experience with other filters, but I think the sump is the best way to go.

Regarding the load factor on your floor, you definitely want to look into that. There is a user on the forums: Agridion. Check out his build: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=229423. He reinforced his floor to handle the load. He also has plumbing that comes up from his basement. You should look into sending a line downstairs towards a drain. This wau, you can pump out water directly into a drain during water changes, as opposed to using hoses and buckets .


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## Gunjee (Sep 2, 2008)

Here is how a sump works in a nutshell. The tank is being filled with water, until it spills over into an overflow. The water then goes to the sump via gravity. Therefore running your plumbing under the floorboards to the utility chase is not practical, as the water will not be going down, but horizontally. Once the water goes through the filtration in the sump, it is then pumped back into the tank. Thus cycling the water.


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## 69183 (Apr 25, 2011)

Great info guys. Thanks. Yeah after reading a little more about sumps, I realized my overflow concern was a bit unwarranted.

I like running the drain idea, as there is a drain in the utility closet that would work nicely. Don't know about running plumbing up to the area though, but I guess it could probably be done at the same time.

Thanks!


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## pistolpete (Dec 28, 2009)

Generally speaking, a 1/4 inch per foot slope is plenty for water to drain down a pipe, so since there are generally about 10 inches of room in the floor assembly, there is plenty of drop to work with. However, a pump would have to be quite strong to handle the 10 feet of elevation to pump back up to the tank. 
A sump can not overflow, because the amount of water entering it is limited by the overflow slots being about an inch from the surface of the tank. If the pump stops working, then the tank loses 1 inch of water and the sump gains 2 or 3 inches and the whole thing stops. The reverse scenario of the overflow getting plugged and the tank overflowing as the sump is pumped dry can also be resolved by placing the return pump close to the surface of the sump. That way the pump stops working before the tank overflows.

As for structure, it looks to me like the closet walls directly under the proposed tank location add a lot of support to the floor system right there. If the drywall is not in yet, then it should be easy to back frame in some extra support in that closet wall. Also some extra blocking between the joists would not hurt.


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## Rick_Lindsey (Aug 26, 2002)

Wow, that's going to be an awesome setup. Have you considered setting up some sort of automated or semi-automated water change system? If you're going to run plumbing anyways, just a drain (or two) and a water supply tap would facilitate the ultimate (imho) setup for a large tank.

I keep dreaming of "someday" when we buy a house running a drain and a water source to where my slice of Lake Tanganyika will be (the 200gallon tank my wife promised me 7 years ago when I agreed to help pick up dog poop). A whole-house carbon block filter to strip out the chlorine, drip drip drip a few gallons a day, drain in the sump to keep it from overflowing... maintenance reduced to just swapping the prefilter on the trickle tower once a week (or cleaning out the poret divider once every few months... whatever). Cichlid Nirvana!

-Rick (the armchair aquarist)


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## 69183 (Apr 25, 2011)

Rick_Lindsey said:


> Wow, that's going to be an awesome setup. Have you considered setting up some sort of automated or semi-automated water change system? If you're going to run plumbing anyways, just a drain (or two) and a water supply tap would facilitate the ultimate (imho) setup for a large tank.
> 
> I keep dreaming of "someday" when we buy a house running a drain and a water source to where my slice of Lake Tanganyika will be (the 200gallon tank my wife promised me 7 years ago when I agreed to help pick up dog poop). A whole-house carbon block filter to strip out the chlorine, drip drip drip a few gallons a day, drain in the sump to keep it from overflowing... maintenance reduced to just swapping the prefilter on the trickle tower once a week (or cleaning out the poret divider once every few months... whatever). Cichlid Nirvana!
> 
> -Rick (the armchair aquarist)


Yup, thought about an "automated" water change system. Haven't quite figured it out yet. I guess with the water being changed out slowly, the temperature wouldn't matter too much.

I did hear back from the construction engineer and he said he wouldn't go much more than 2500lbs in that area. I started looking at the floor plans again, and think I have another idea. If you look at the first floor, there is a wall that runs between the family room and the garage, well that wall runs right under the "divider" between the living room and the dining room. Waiting to hear back if that is a bearing or partition wall, but I'm thinking putting the aquarium extending out from the wall opposite the stairs to separate the two rooms. If extra support is needed (I'll have to make sure this will work), I can have some support struts installed in the family room and garage. In the family room I can either cover them to make them look like Georgian Columns or I can wall them off and make a "closet" from that area accessible either from the garage or the family room (I'm thinking garage).

Second idea is actually better for the automatic water change system as I wouldn't have to pull up as much of the flooring. Really just a couple holes to run the plumbing out to the garage and then back into the utility closet.

Still entertaining the original idea as well, just depends on how much reinforcement would need to be done to support it and the cost.

P.S. Oh and instead of walls that act like secret doors, I'm going to make them book cases with cabinet doors on the bottom. Will probably do so in either location.


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## roke28 (Oct 26, 2008)

I would definetly marrage your rafters that are supporting the tank. Thats alot of weight on those rafters


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## chagoi (Dec 29, 2010)

I have a 180 in the wall. I put a working sink under it, the best thing I did. Also added a drain in the floor just in case. That was after I had to replace the floor & rug. It,s worth it. Also I have a feeding door above the tank so I can feed them from the front.


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## dinuma (Jul 21, 2011)

First, i would reconsider a front to back distance of 3 feet. makes it difficult to clean the glass and reach the back if you need to. remember here you dont have space to go around the other side. Second, make sure you have at least 3 or preferably more feet between the staircase and tank. this will allow you to easily take things up and down the stairs and NOT bump into the tank. Third, from the looks of it the door leading to the deck opens onto the tank and may come slamming into the tank if opened hard by the wind, or guest in the home. watch out for this.

the builder should confirm this but the weight in a condo should not be an issue since it is a high rise and the supports are concrete based for several stories above your level. but get this confirmed from the builders for sure after you finalize the size and expected weight. make sure you add about 400-500 pounds to your estimate (just in case) when you speak to the builder.



> My other question is this, I was thinking of making both the front and side wall (facing the stairs) kinda of like a secret passage way door. So the whole wall would open like a door, the side door for feeding, water changes and basic maintenance, the front wall for cleaning and major maintenance.


in a condo im not sure you can make alterations to the external walls and both the walls on the sides of the tank as shown in the figure above seem to be external walls. again ask the builder for this. if you meant the walls of the tank i would not advise this since the tank size is huge and the glass panels would need to be firmly held in place and probably braced as well. your maintenance would likely have to be from the top. if you plan to put extra panels in front of the tank to conceal the tops and drop down from the ceiling (so the tank looks like its within the wall) that should be fine but that will be a huge expense in design, labor & materials.



> I'm also thinking of putting the sump (which I'm not entirely sure how this all works, so I need to do some reading) down in the garage on the first floor, in the event that it overflows it just spills into the garage


designed and made correctly there is no reason why a sump should leak all over the floor. longer the plumbing more powerful (& hence expensive) the pump you will need. also this will increase the chances of a leak. the best place for a sump is below the main tank. easy to maintain all the water in one place. with a 7 foot tank im thinking your sump will be at least 5 feet or more and about 16 inches tall. remember to add the weight of a full sump when you talk to the builder (but again i think it should be alright).

Gunjee has given a decent diagram of a sump design. you might also want to check this out:
https://picasaweb.google.com/dinuma/SumpDesign?authuser=0&feat=directlink

those are my designs. here are my (2 cents worth) tips on sump design:
if you drill the rear glass panel at the top you minimize chances of a leak since the pressure is low. you are also more likely to see the leak since you will get a wet patch and maybe a drip somewhere. if you drill the bottom the drip takes longer to be noticed and may even go un-noticed. a high drill also prevents the sump getting over-flowed since the siphon will shut off at a high water level in the tank. the hole in my tank is just about 1.5 inches below the top edge of the tank on the left upper corner. from here the plumbing goes straight down and outside the tank into the sump. so the sump is about 6 inches wider than the main tank or placed a little behind. It is a little noisy but i like the sound of water flowing and if i keep the hood of the tank closed and quilt batting (filter floss) over the horizontal outflow tube in the sump the sound can be muffled. advantage with this design is there is no tube visible int he tank and the fish have a free space to occupy. a durso pipe or overflow box inside the tank eats up tank space (but you are planning 3 feet so i guess that would not be a concern to you).

The drain idea is very nice. i know a person who has done some extensive plumbing in his new house. there are 2 washrooms beyond the walls in his tank design. so the water from the tank gets flushed into the toilet bowls every time he flushes them. the tank then gets filled up automatically just like his flush tank would have in our cases. in your case a drain to a convenient location would be really good for water changes. if you are using water to fill the tank directly from the tap then also consider a tap near the tank as well.

you're already on to considering an automated WC system so go ahead and update those plans when possible. im a bit tied down with work these days but i do plan to post actual pictures of my tank set up in due course rather than diagrams like the link above.

all the best


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## 69183 (Apr 25, 2011)

dinuma said:


> First, i would reconsider a front to back distance of 3 feet. makes it difficult to clean the glass and reach the back if you need to. remember here you dont have space to go around the other side. Second, make sure you have at least 3 or preferably more feet between the staircase and tank. this will allow you to easily take things up and down the stairs and NOT bump into the tank. Third, from the looks of it the door leading to the deck opens onto the tank and may come slamming into the tank if opened hard by the wind, or guest in the home. watch out for this.
> 
> the builder should confirm this but the weight in a condo should not be an issue since it is a high rise and the supports are concrete based for several stories above your level. but get this confirmed from the builders for sure after you finalize the size and expected weight. make sure you add about 400-500 pounds to your estimate (just in case) when you speak to the builder.
> 
> ...


Well its not a high ruse condo, its a townhouse condo, so the its not constructed with steel and concrete on the second floor, its wooden hoisted with a subfloor and hardwood on top. I've actually decided not to put the aquarium by the stairs but better yet use it as a room divided between the living room and dining room. This way it will be perpendicular to the joists, for one and two better viewability. Just waiting on the builder's engineer to let me know the load that can be safely be placed there.

Actually the only thing I can't modify is the outside of the building. I can change anything I want on the inside of the condo, even on the exterior walls, as long as it doesn't affect the structure or outside facade.


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## dinuma (Jul 21, 2011)

in that case the safest bet would be the basement for such a large set up. straight on the ground with nothing to worry about. i assume this is the family room and that is where you will lounge most of the time.


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## 69183 (Apr 25, 2011)

dinuma said:


> in that case the safest bet would be the basement for such a large set up. straight on the ground with nothing to worry about. i assume this is the family room and that is where you will lounge most of the time.


The second floor is the living room, the "basement" really isn't a basement just the first floor. Which does have a "family" room, but I wouldn't be spending much time down there. It's actually going to be an office, that will only be used when I have to work from home (kind of wasted space). I know its the best place to put it, but it just wouldn't be seen as much, other than coming and going. Which is why I want to put something on the second floor. I'm still contemplating on the size of the actual aquarium so I may shorten the height of the aquarium, but keep the length and width the same in order to reduce weight. I'm still waiting to hear back from the engineer to find out what kind of load the floor can take. I have an idea for bracing the floor if necessary.


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## dielikemoviestars (Oct 23, 2007)

Something tells me you'd be spending quite a bit of time down there if there was a 7x3 tank in that room :lol:


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## 69183 (Apr 25, 2011)

dielikemoviestars said:


> Something tells me you'd be spending quite a bit of time down there if there was a 7x3 tank in that room :lol:


Lol, true and is probably go bigger. What is really like to do though is separate the living and dining room, which is why I'm so "gun Ho" on the second floor set up.


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