# ammonia and nitrite both high



## zcfish (Jan 31, 2009)

my 125g tank has been running for 18 days. it was seeded using bio from a 10g tank filter. i had 4 cichlids in there from the beginning and have been adding fish now i am at 16 juvenilles. i just check the ammonia is now 1ppm and nitrite also 1ppm. my understanding is once nitrite is measurable the ammonia level should be around 0ppm. can someone explain this and also what stage am i on as far as cycling is concerned. the fish are doing fine no sign of stress.


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## Lively (Jan 13, 2009)

As long as there is ammonia, you're not done. I think you mean nitrates. No way to tell where you are on the cycle it varies from tank to tank. I think the norm is a month.


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## sleepy09 (Jan 15, 2009)

> I think the norm is a month


WOW I am glad that my tank didn't take that long. I wonder what I did to get my 125 to cycle in only 7-8 days?

I agree with Lively, if you are still showing ammonia then it isn't cycled. If your biological filtratrion was established you shouldn't see any ammonia. It doesn't appear to be an overstock issue so that is all it has to be.


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## cc_woman (Jan 31, 2008)

Adding too many fish too soon can cause the levels to rise. IMO on a tank that was just set up a few weeks ago, using only bio media from a seeded filter, and adding that many fish will probably cause it to rise. Typically I would have waited at least a couple weeks before I added any new fish, and only adding a few at a time.

Usually there is still a bit of ammonia present when the nitrites start to rise, which is why you are seeing both. You should start to see ammonia go back to 0 in the next week or 2, and start seeing nitrates. You're tank is going through what they would call a mini cycle (since you did start with a seeded filter). I would do 25-50% water changes at least every other day until the ammonia levels go down to 0, and add aquarium salt to help detoxify nitrites. Otherwise you might see some signs of ammonia or nitrite poisoning.


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## zcfish (Jan 31, 2009)

thanks for the quick response. so maybe there not enough bacteria to handle the added bioload in a short period of time. the wc will dilute ammonia, nitrite as well so will it slow down the cycle? in other words wc effectively reducing the bioload therefore the tank will never be fully cycled with that much water change every other day.


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## zcfish (Jan 31, 2009)

by the way the tank is running with fluval fx5 with 2 liter of bio and 2 liter of pre-filter. i am thinking adding another2 liter of bio if i can survive this. i know, i am very impatient.


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## sleepy09 (Jan 15, 2009)

Hey zcfish, It maybe just be what they call a mini cycle, which is what cc_woman has just described. You may have just jumped the gun.

If I was you I would leave the FX5 alone for a bit and let it run with the media that you have in it. With the limited stock that you have in the tank right now there should be plenty of media for the bacteria to grow and maintain your bioload. Keep an eye on the water conditions and do small water changes to keep them under control. It is to late to do anything else unless you have another tank that is cycled to put the fish in.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Don't play with your filter now! You don't want to destroy the few bacteria you just managed to grow. Seeding a 125G with a filter from a 10G is a bit like feeding a single strawberry to a cow - as we say in German :lol:

So it's not surprising that your cycle is going slow - the bacteria will need a while to establish themselves. Ammonia in the water means that there are not enough bacteria yet. You can let that ammonia poison your fish or remove it via a water change - your choice. The bacteria keep on multiplying as long as the fish keep on putting out ammonia, and eventually there will just be enough to eat al the ammonia that's produced in the tank. That means the cycle is complete.

Every time you ad a fish or otherwise increase the bioload, the bacteria population has to increase to be able to deal with it. People call that a mini cycle. It always occurs, but it isn't always detectable, because sometimes there is so little ammonia produced additionally that you can't measure it, or the bacteria grow so fast that they eat it before you can measure it.

Excess food in the water will also produce ammonia when it rots. So you want to go very gently with the feeding now. I would even stop feeding for a few days, unless you bought fish that are half starved to begin with.

The important thing to remember is that the cycle will complete itself in time. You couldn't stop that from happening if you tried! The task at hand is to make this process as easy on your fish as possible!

Frank


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## cc_woman (Jan 31, 2008)

zcfish said:


> thanks for the quick response. so maybe there not enough bacteria to handle the added bioload in a short period of time. the wc will dilute ammonia, nitrite as well so will it slow down the cycle? in other words wc effectively reducing the bioload therefore the tank will never be fully cycled with that much water change every other day.


No, water changes will not slow down the cycle process. The good bacteria live in the filters, substrate and on deco, not in the actual water column itself. Just don't vacuum the substrate either. Simply empty some water and replace it with treated fresh water. I had an article bookmarked on my old comp that was actual testing and results of cycling a tank with and without doing water changes in a cycle with fish. His results showed that the tank actually cycled about 2-3 days sooner when doing water changes, than when he didn't. As long as you don't touch anything the bacteria lives on.


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## Lively (Jan 13, 2009)

zcfish said:


> thanks for the quick response. so maybe there not enough bacteria to handle the added bioload in a short period of time. the wc will dilute ammonia, nitrite as well so will it slow down the cycle? in other words wc effectively reducing the bioload therefore the tank will never be fully cycled with that much water change every other day.


Water changes need to be done because you have fish in the tank. Changing out the water won't really slow down the cycle - as long as the fish produce ammonia your good bacteria will grow. This is the time when you have to be really patient with the tank. I wouldn't do anything else to it until it is cycled.


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## zcfish (Jan 31, 2009)

let me just say i have been reading this columns for like a month. i appreciate your help, it's priceless. i just added 1/4 lb of salt (dissolved in water first of course) will add another 1/4 lb later (api aquarium salt) hopefully it helps. will definitely do the wc change cut down on feeding. i'll keep this posted hopefully will help newbie like me. i will stop tickering with the tank (i can't keep my hands out of the tank LOL).


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## cc_woman (Jan 31, 2008)

:lol: Yeah when I get my new tanks I find it hard to leave them alone too. That's what forums are for, for us who have experience to help those that don't


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## zcfish (Jan 31, 2009)

this morning after 9 hours the ammonia is down to 0.5 and nitrite remain at 1ppm. now after another 12 hours tonight the ammonia is down to 0 and nitrite remain at 1ppm. so i am think the ammonia bacteria is definitely 100% but the nitrite bacteria is also speeding up ( consider it has to consume all the nitrite to remain at 1 ppm) . hopefully nitrite will be on the way down from here.

just did a 30% water change. may do another one on Sunday if things doesn't improve.


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## cc_woman (Jan 31, 2008)

Good to hear


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## cevvin (May 2, 2008)

Just be patient, and you might want to start testing for nitrates since your ammonia is going down. Keep up with the water changes, and dont add anymore fish. It will get there, just pray your fish make it.


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## zcfish (Jan 31, 2009)

just an update. the nitrite is still at 1ppm. but the biggest male (or so i thought) is holding. see my other thread:

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... 09#1283309


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## sleepy09 (Jan 15, 2009)

Are you showing nitrates yet?

Just keep doing the water changes to keep the numbers down. It sounds as though everything is worrking out for ya. Great job :thumb:


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## elarkin (Jan 31, 2009)

i have a question related to this thread since i'm in a similar predicament. . cc_woman said not to vacuum the substrate. but wouldn't that then leave all that fish feces in there to break down and create more ammonia? i thought the idea was to change the water and vacuum the substrate to get rid of excess ammonia?

its been 10 days for me since i put 6 mbuna in my tank and started the cycle (i am a newb and had no idea it was possible to do fishless cycling). mine is a 55 gallon tank with a marineland emperor 400 filter. so i need the biowheel to get that bacteria growing. it feels like its taking forever. i have 6 fish in there and my ammonia is somewhere between .5 and 1 ppm. i did a water change 3 days ago and another today. i don't want to lose my fish. i'll do another change on thursday (2 days from today) and again on sat or sunday depending on my ammonia readings. it would be nice if the bacteria would grow and take care of it. grrr. i've also been limiting my feeding. i may skip a couple of days on the feeding too. this is so frustrating.

anyway, i saw tons of poop on the bottom of my tank and so i thought i should vacuum it up, but it sounds like you are recommending i leave it there next time i do a water change?

thanks, ed


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## zcfish (Jan 31, 2009)

if you're ammonia is still 1ppm then you're just getting started. my ammonia is 0 now nitrite is still at 1ppm, maybe a little bit less. gonna do another water change today 25%. fish seem to be ok for now all eating quite aggressively.

if you see tons of poop then 1. you're feeding too much. 2. you need a powerhead mount somewhere in the middle of the tank and blowing on the sand. i haven't vacuumed for more than 2 weeks now, yes there is poop but not that bad.

just from my experience. obviously i am no expert. i guess i am a few days ahead of you as far as cycling is concerned. :wink:


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> anyway, i saw tons of poop on the bottom of my tank and so i thought i should vacuum it up, but it sounds like you are recommending i leave it there next time i do a water change?


Absolutely vacuum it up. Remove as much as you can and go on a strict feeding regimen of once 
every two days. And feed just enough so they each get some. It's easy to kill them with kindness. 
Your thinking on this is exactly right. Leaving that will only make things worse. And, as mentioned, if 
there's as much as you say, you're overfeeding. Particularly for the early going and in the middle of 
cycling.



> i have 6 fish in there and my ammonia is somewhere between .5 and 1 ppm


Is it on the rise, decline, or staying level?



> i did a water change 3 days ago and another today.


Do one every day, just not massive. 25-30% is about right.

You may already know this, but don't touch the filters at all. Leave them be.

When ammonia does drop, nitrite will rise. Have you tested nitrite and are you seeing any yet?

You've got a long way to go, but this can be managed.

Use Prime or similar to detox the ammonia and nitrite when doing your daily water change.


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## elarkin (Jan 31, 2009)

well, for the past 4 days i've given them:

sat: no food
sun: 4 flakes of the omega one cichlid flakes
mon: 4 flakes
tues: 3 flakes

is that really too much for 6 african cichlids? :-? they gobble it up aggressively in about 30 seconds. i won't feed them tomorrow and maybe not thursday either, but i'll admit that, newbish as i am, i find it hard to believe that's too much food. the fish are about 1 1/2 inches big.

i'm still curious to hear the answer to my question about vacuuming the substrate.

also, what kind of powerhead would you recommend in a 55 gallon tank populated with mbuna? i imagine something smallish? again, i'm new to all this, but from what i've read they don't seem to like too much water movement and my emperor 400 keeps that constant shower going.

thanks, ed


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I answered your question about the substrate. At least I think I did. It will break down and contribute to 
the ammonia problem. Vacuum it up. There's no good reason to leave it there regardless of how long 
the tank's been set up.

There may be so much food in the substrate because it's never been vacuumed rather than overfeeding.


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## elarkin (Jan 31, 2009)

thanks. that's very helpful. for some reason i didn't see your post when i replied last time. you must have posted while i was writing my response to the prior post.

it seems to me the ammonia has been staying level. i find it challenging to read the subtle gradations of yellowish green or greenish yellow, but i'd say its staying more or less level. i mean, after the first water change on saturday it went down a little from 1 ppm to about .75 ppm (although the next reading down is .5 on the card--but i'd say it was clearly a shade between 1 and .5). I think it kind of stayed there for the past three days but, i was starting to feel like it was looking closer to going back up to 1 ppm so I did the 25% water change again today.

i'm sorry if my explanations seem lame. i'm a bit anxious about my fish. its my first time with cichlids and they are really cool. i'd hate to lose them. i can report that they seem very energetic and eat aggressively when i feed them. i hope those are good signs.

thanks again for the help.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I'd keep doing the water changes and monitoring. I think you're doing all you can do and if you can keep 
the levels low like they are and use a detox product like Prime, you've got a good chance that the fish will 
be ok. If you can get hold of some media from a friend's filter on an established tank, that would help 
things too, just make sure it's a healthy tank.


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## elarkin (Jan 31, 2009)

i asked the guy at my LFS about ammonialoc and those kinds of products to detoxify the ammonia and he said that doing that would stop the bacteria from growing on my biowheel. is that true? i am guessing its not since you are recommending this course of action, but i wanted to ask the question directly. thanks,

ed


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> he said that doing that would stop the bacteria from growing on my biowheel. is that true?


No, it's not true. Ask him to explain why that would be so. I can tell you that products like Prime convert 
the ammonia to a non-toxic form while leaving it available for nitrifying bacteria. I can also tell you that 
I've used it on a cycling tank (actually many) and the tanks still cycled. I also know that ammonia will kill 
the fish. So, what's his solution? See if they live, and if not, come back and buy more? If he sent you 
home with mbuna to cycle your tank, he did you a disservice IMHO.


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## elarkin (Jan 31, 2009)

i hear you. i don't think it was malicious, but its still annoying. as i said before, had i known i could cycle my tank with no fish in it . . .

ok, where do i buy Prime? can i find it at a store like Petco (which btw is not my lfs, but is nearby) or do i need to go to a hardware store or something like that?

thanks again for all the help.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> ok, where do i buy Prime?


Fish stores. Petco might have it. Prime, Amquel+, or Ammolock will do.


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## sleepy09 (Jan 15, 2009)

> So, what's his solution? See if they live, and if not, come back and buy more? If he sent you
> home with mbuna to cycle your tank, he did you a disservice IMHO


I agree, that just ruffles my feathers. I have a couple of places that I go to that are like that. All they wanna do is sell fish at what ever the cost to the customer and the fish. They act like know it alls and most of the time I can call them on it.



> i don't think it was malicious, but its still annoying.


The sad thing is, he knew that there was a possibilty that those fish could die in the process of cycling that tank. He had to know that you are new at this with all of the questions that you were asking. Not to mention the big dummy almost discouraged you with all of the problems that you have been having and IMO that isn't good for his buisness either.

Some people just make me mad :x


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## elarkin (Jan 31, 2009)

I put in the Amquel+ yesterday and the ammonia is down a bit. I'll do another dose tomorrow morning if its not gone down more. It was at about .5 ppm earlier today. I'm trying to to obsess.

I have a question about something earlier in this thread. Someone suggested I put a powerhead in my 55 gallon tank. Can I get some more direct guidance on this. What exactly would you recommend in a tank this size populated with Mbuna. I have 6 now and once I get it cycling I hope to increase my stock to somewhere around 10-12 fish. What would you recommend for a powerhead? Or is it ok to go without one?

Thanks again for all the valuable assistance so far. Best, Ed


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> It was at about .5 ppm earlier today.


Sounds like you're managing it well. :thumb: All you can do at this point. What's your nitrite level?



> Or is it ok to go without one?


You need some circulation for a lot of reasons, but it doesn' t have to come from a powerhead. It's hard 
to say if you have enough without standing in front of your tank. Circulation can help keep detritus 
suspended until the filters pick it up, and it'll help move water to the surface so it can tank on oxygen. If 
directed across the surface enough to create a ripple, it'll help the gas exchange as well. Can't hurt to 
have one, but no tank 'needs' one if circulation is adequate via the filters.


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