# Xenotilapia rotundiventralis



## Multi (Apr 21, 2012)

Hello!

Finally I got my Xenotilapia rotundiventralis. I found them in a place in Germany in January this year, and finally they arrived at my house at April 17 2012. There is so little information about this species on the internet, so I would hear if there is anyone others there have them? It is a very nice species. 
They all survived the shipment from Germany to Denmark, so now I have 20 of them swimming around in my 360 liters aquarium in the basement. They are so fine.

When they arrived, they had some dark markings all around the body, but they donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t have it any more. Sometimes a little bit at night, but otherwise they are silver with these beautiful blue and shiny dots or stripes, down along the side of the body. They were pretty shy when they arrived, but they quickly lost some of their skittish behavior, and I am surprised how little shy they are now. 19 of them are swimming around near the front of the aquarium, a little bit above the sand bottom, and sometimes one of them swims down to take mouthful of sand, but they are not sandshifting alot. They all swim together, but a single fish have chosen to be under a large rock in the aquarium. If I take a finger to the glass, in front of where the fish is, it raises all the fins, and tries to chase me away.  Why do you think that it does that? It doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t look sick, but I also think that it canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t already have found a territory that it protects so strongly?

I think that they feel more and more like Ã¢â‚¬Å"homeÃ¢â‚¬Â


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## darkstar22 (Dec 13, 2010)

Let's see some pics please! I have Xeno Ochrogenys! Don't know anything about yours though. Keep us posted


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Its become rather famous.
http://ecol.zool.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~tetsumi ... html#X_rot
and interestingly has invisible pair bonds
http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/ ... .1006.full

The study was the first to detect pair bonds in animals in which physical proximity has not been observed.

Looking forward to reading (and hoping for some photos) of how they do in aquaria for you.

All the best James


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## Multi (Apr 21, 2012)

I tried to post some pictures, but I couldn't really find out of it...  
I have some good pictures, so if you could tell me how to do, I'll post some. :wink:


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## Creepy85 (Aug 26, 2009)

try to search...

Microdontochromis....thats the correct name...


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## Multi (Apr 21, 2012)

No, Creepy85. The correct name of this species is Xenotilapia rotundiventralis. Earlier it was named Microdontochromis rotundiventralis, but in 2003 it was removed to the Xenotilapia genus, and is now named X. rotundiventralis. Many still often call this species for Microdontochromis rotundiventralis (including me), but the correct name is Xenotilapia rotundiventralis.


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## Multi (Apr 21, 2012)

I have another thread about my tank on a danish site, where I also have uploaded some pictures of the fish. I can post some links, so you can see them, until I find out how to upload pictures on this site. 

First a picture of the aquarium : http://cichlids.akvariefisk.dk/storage/ ... DAFA3F.JPG

Then one of the fish school : http://cichlids.akvariefisk.dk/storage/ ... 8A5124.JPG

Then a closeup picture of one of the fish : http://cichlids.akvariefisk.dk/storage/ ... F7A2EC.JPG


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Post images the same way as your post above but with IMG tags before and after the URL.
This:

```
[img]http://cichlids.akvariefisk.dk/storage/debat/B82F5FFA-AC1C-F073-15564F9679DAFA3F.JPG[/img]
```
produces this:


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## Multi (Apr 21, 2012)

Hmm. I tried that before I posted the links, but it doesn't work for me. :-?


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## Creepy85 (Aug 26, 2009)

With the Name is just like the same with the genius Enantiopus...

in germany always called microdontochromis....

http://xenotilapia.npage.de/microdontoc ... nangu.html


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## Vamze (Feb 16, 2012)

Creepy85 said:


> With the Name is just like the same with the genius Enantiopus...
> 
> in germany always called microdontochromis....
> 
> http://xenotilapia.npage.de/microdontoc ... nangu.html


Doesn't really matter what you call it. It matters what science calls it.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Multi said:


> Hmm. I tried that before I posted the links, but it doesn't work for me. :-?


There's a space in the URL that you need to remove.


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## Creepy85 (Aug 26, 2009)

Vamze said:


> Creepy85 said:
> 
> 
> > With the Name is just like the same with the genius Enantiopus...
> ...


doesnÃ‚Â´t matter which science you mean....

in german science on the TU(Technical University) Munich called this fish microdontochromis....


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## Vamze (Feb 16, 2012)

Creepy85 said:


> ...in german science...


The species was first described in 1997 by *Takahashi*, Yanagisawa and Nakaya.

Later, in a revision of the genus Xenotilapia, (BY THE SAME GUY WHO DISCOVERED IT IN THE FIRST PLACE)* Takahashi*, _T. 2003: Systematics of Tanganyikan cichlid fishes (Teleostei: Perciformes). Ichthyological Research_ It was described as Xenotilapia Rotundiventralis.

Here are some links if you want to read the articles youself.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/k5qd8w1a4dv7nyd4/

http://www.itis.gov/servlet/SingleRpt/S ... lue=649579


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## Multi (Apr 21, 2012)

Now it works. Thank you GTZ.


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## Creepy85 (Aug 26, 2009)

Vamze said:


> Creepy85 said:
> 
> 
> > ...in german science...
> ...


This Discription of fishes is ok, but the Name is Nonses....look to the genus metriaclima or maylandia....
Every scientist called the fish like he did...

try to ask michael nÃƒÂ¤f in our forum tanganjika-forum.de


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Nice photos, interesting cichlid.

On the genus. We do not have to accept Takahashi's move of the species from _Microdontochromis_ to _Xenotilapia_ (2003) if we think it was done in error or the reasons for the move not good. It is far from a typical _Xenotilapia_. But I do not know enough about it to give an opinion one way or another. Nor willing to pay to read the papers.  
Not sure if there is a consensus on this.
Fishbase go with _Xenotilapia_.
But CRC still go with _Microdontochromis_ http://www.cichlidae.com/gallery/genus. ... 64&lang=en
There are no rules governing generic assignments, only opinions. :thumb:

For sure there is a lot written about it as _Microdontochromis_, (its name from 1997 to at least 2003) so well worth including that on any search for info.

All the best James


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## Multi (Apr 21, 2012)

I also call this species for Microdontochromis, but i thought that i would name this thread _Xenotilapia rotundiventralis_, because I think that is the right name now. But most people still call it Microdontochromis, and it is also under that name you will find most information on the internet.


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## Vamze (Feb 16, 2012)

24Tropheus said:


> Nice photos, interesting cichlid.
> 
> On the genus. We do not have to accept Takahashi's move of the species from _Microdontochromis_ to _Xenotilapia_ (2003) if we think it was done in error or the reasons for the move not good. It is far from a typical _Xenotilapia_. But I do not know enough about it to give an opinion one way or another. Nor willing to pay to read the papers.
> Not sure if there is a consensus on this.
> ...


While this is certainly true, we must also keep in mind that these are peer-reviewed science papers, that are widely regarded as facts.

You can also have your own opinion on gravity, but that doesn't change the fact that if you jump off a bridge, it is very real.

Now, while I do go to university, I don't study biology, so I doubt I will be able to make any claims or conclusions whether Takashi is correct or not. I will, however, not disregard his paper as "fiction" as some people seem to be doing.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Peer review is happening as it usualy does in Zoology, mainly after publication.
Peer review before publication is not to see if it should be accepted as fact but to ensure it is good enough to be published.
I guess as many are not accepting the name change, they do not agree with it rather than are ignoring it.
I did/do study Zoology and am afade name changes are not fixed in stone from one publication to the next but usage after the paper tends to be the deciding factor.
That and later genus reviews.

All the best James


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## Cajen (Mar 16, 2012)

Multi wgat an outstanding tank ans aquascape you have! Absolutely FAB!


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

24Tropheus said:


> Peer review before publication is not to see if it should be accepted as fact but to ensure it is good enough to be published.


 :roll: "Good enough to be published" is based on sufficient evidence, sound scientific method, research rational and yes- hypothesis testing concluding with factual results. To call this a generic assignment makes me wonder what you'd call a specific assignment.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

triscuit said:


> 24Tropheus said:
> 
> 
> > Peer review before publication is not to see if it should be accepted as fact but to ensure it is good enough to be published.
> ...


Generic as in genus. Specific as in species. (not hard :wink: )

Interestingly the paper seems to contain no hypothesis testing, just an assertion, that many seem to disagree with.

Proof by assertion, an assertion as opposed to an argument............. is not acceptable.

I for sure dunno if the guys in charge of this forum or CRC or the Scientific community will eventualy follow fishbase and accept this generic re assignment. But given the time lag, prob not?

All the best James


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## Multi (Apr 21, 2012)

It still works very well with the fish. I lost a fish a few days after they had arrived, but there were also two of fish, which in the beginning seemed quite stressful, so I think it was one of those who died...

But then I think, I also lost one last Saturday after waterchange! But I was so careful, so I don't understand how that could happen? Is there anyone who have any advice for how to avoid the accident happening again?
I placed a water hose in the top of the aquarium, in one of the corners, and the other end of the hose in a sink. So I didn't removed the hose at all, before I had taken 1/4 of the aquarium water out, so I can't have stressed the fish that way.
I filled up with water at about the same temperature as in the aquarium, usually I fill my aquariums with a little bit colder water, but i wouldn't risk to give them "cold shock".
None of the fish seemed stressed under the waterchange or after, therefore it suprised me a little bit that one of the fish died... All of the fish seems fresh.
If anyone could share their own experiences to avoid this, it would be really nice.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

With delicate WC I always pre age my water change water for 24 hours, airating it and warming it throughout. Then check its pH and KH and GH matches the tank water. Then treat with baking soda and or epsom salts if needed, then use a good chloramine remover like Seachem Prime or Safe (Just in case the water supplier has added chloramines to combat a bacterial surge) .(Once did a big water change and wiped out half my WC stock before doing this). Kind of suprised they were so delicate as well though. It may be something else making them delicate like some sort of pathogen imported with/in them or one that just has not made it very well into captivity (shipping further weekening a week or infected fish).

Any trace of ammonia or nitrite in a new tank can be very bad for WC being so stressed already by the move into captivity and recent shipping. Seachem prime or safe will help detoxify these but not remove them. Carbon filtration is about the only thing that does that and that will starve your biological filters. Its kind of all or nothing with chemical filtration. Do it well and rely on it or stay away from it.

But saying all that. Some WC do not make it, whatever I try.

All the best James


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## Multi (Apr 21, 2012)

Thankyou for your answer!
I once checked our water parameters in the water from the sink, and they were pretty much the same as in the aquarium. Especially if I water change with warm water, I am very aware with that. But we have just got a new sink, a whole new kitchen in the basement actually, so I don't know if it may have changed the water parameters or something ... I'll check that before the next water change!
But maybe I just was unlucky. As I wrote, there was two fish in the start, which was more stressed than the others, and now I have lost two fish.
I just hope I don't loose more than that in the near future.


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## Multi (Apr 21, 2012)

Some new pictures.


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## Multi (Apr 21, 2012)

I just found one of the missing fish. Yes, that is good news, but not in this way!
Because the fish is behind the background in the aquarium ... >:-(
This is the last time I put a background in a aquarium! I've tried this before in my other Tanganyika aquarium, in exactly the same way: water change, and one of the fish jumps, and ends behind the background. Arh!
But I know that is the way the fish ended up there; under the last waterchange. Because before I putted in in the aquarium, I checked the background several times for holes, where the fish maybe could swim through, I found one, and closed it very carefully with aquarium-silicone. I glued the background to the flamingo ind the bound of the aquarium, and I glued it in the sides. That is so annoying loosing a fish that way!
Is there anyone who have any ideas for catching it up, and put it over to the rest of the fish?

Well, then I have 19 fish...

But I also have some good news: I'm pretty sure about, that one of the fish is holding babies! It swims with a closed mouth, but sometimes it is chewing / turns the eggs around, and you can see them. It is also quite visible on the fish. So that is very exciting, and if I am right, and it really holds eggs, then it's been fast, because I have only had the fish for just under one month now. I received them on 17/04!


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## Cajen (Mar 16, 2012)

Really kool pics, nice fish... Abso love your tank.


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## Multi (Apr 21, 2012)

Thankyou, Cajen.


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## Multi (Apr 21, 2012)

Then there is another fish that is mouthbrooding! I think that must be the male, which has taken over for the female, because she does not seem to be incubating anymore. Interesting! I discovered it yesterday, when the eggs was held for 10 days, so it fits very well with the timing that they had to switch over now ...
I can clearly see the larvae / fry in the male's mouth now. Sometimes, I can also see a little eye, I think. )


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Thats realy 8) . I dunno what I would do now. I dunno if the male protects the young after holding or (like some gobie cichlids) becomes a predator of his own young after spitting. I guess I would try a holding/brooding tank, letting em spit and stripping a male (if you have three males holding) and see what works best. That is unless you can find someone else who has bred and raised them and knows for sure. :thumb:

All the best James


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## Multi (Apr 21, 2012)

In this thread, there is someone who have hold this species : http://www.cichlidae.com/forum/viewtopi ... b8ba8f6719

After their experience, the adults shouldn't eat the fry, so I just think, that I will let the male spit out the fry by himself, and let them grow up in the aquarium with the rest of the fish. I don't have other species in this aquarium, so that should work well.

In addition, I don't have a brooding tank. Actually, I probably wouldn't be allowed to put up one, because my parents thinks, that 3 aquariums, with a combined volume of 600 litre, is enough! :lol:


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## Vamze (Feb 16, 2012)

Multi said:


> In this thread, there is someone who have hold this species : http://www.cichlidae.com/forum/viewtopi ... b8ba8f6719
> 
> After their experience, the adults shouldn't eat the fry, so I just think, that I will let the male spit out the fry by himself, and let them grow up in the aquarium with the rest of the fish. I don't have other species in this aquarium, so that should work well.
> 
> In addition, I don't have a brooding tank. Actually, I probably wouldn't be allowed to put up one, because my parents thinks, that 3 aquariums, with a combined volume of 600 litre, is enough! :lol:


Parents are the worst. 

I remember only being in a similar situation; I were only allowed to have three tanks at one time, and I thought it was so unfair. Haha.


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## Multi (Apr 21, 2012)

Haha, yes they can be! 

But I have more good news today! Let's hope it continues!  
Beacause I just saw that another fish appears to be holding! Great!  
I have read of several, who have experienced, that with this species it's not only the mother and the father who broods the youngs, but also others from the flock. I wonder if that might be the case here, I must go down and stare at them tomorrow! Unfortunately, I can not reach it today.


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## Shaky (Jan 2, 2003)

Wow! Very interesting. Please keep the updates going here.


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## Multi (Apr 21, 2012)

Here's some pictures:




























The last two pictures are of the fish, which is holding eggs.


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## Vamze (Feb 16, 2012)

Looks good! Keep us posted with (hopefully) the upcoming fry!


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## reflections (Jan 6, 2012)

Very attractive design, and fish. Very nicely done. Fish look incredibly well.

Very nice don't you think

Gorgeous group!


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## Multi (Apr 21, 2012)

Yes, I am very glad for this aquarium. 

Well, now it is some time ago, I've wrote in this thread, so you'll just get an update! 

Unfortunately I lost the fry. One day, the fish wasn't holding any more, and I couldn't see any fry in the aquarium. Next time I have to find a way to "isolate" the fish that is holding the fry, the last few days.

But otherwise everything is going well. All 18 fish thrives (but still one is behind the background), and they are started to eat the algae and search for food among the stones and in the sand, so it's fun to watch. 

I just took some new pictures of them:


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## Shaky (Jan 2, 2003)

They are looking very healthy.
What size are they?


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## Multi (Apr 21, 2012)

They are 7-8 centimeters.


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## Multi (Apr 21, 2012)

After 4 weeks of vacation, I came home yesterday, and it looks like that two of the fish is holding eggs again.  So now I just hope that they will keep them this time.


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## Multi (Apr 21, 2012)

Since the last update things have gone downhill with the cichlids:  (

I decided some time ago only to make water change 1 time every 2 week, when I heard that many had had success with it, and in the beginning it went fine too. Some time ago, one of the fish became ill - one of the deformed fish. After some time it died, but I thought that something had been wrong with it from the beginning. Then, the other deformed fish died, and now, one more fish is ill. Now, I only have 14 fish left. The one, who is ill now, has the same symptoms as the other fish had before they died - I am afraid that it's caused by poor water quality, and will begin to make water change 1 time every week as before. : (

The symptom of the ill fish is as follows: The fish swims in a big group a little bit above the bottom of the aquarium all the time - all together. Suddenly one fish begins to breathe more rapidly and it swims more and more in the back of the group over a period of time. It begins to breathe much faster. There is no sight of sticking dandruff (Is that was it's called?), mold, or wounds; the fish have normal color, perhaps a bit brighter. At one point, the fish begins to stay in the back of the aquarium, lying on the bottom (with the stomach down, just resting on the bottom). The belly never turns upwards! The fish is now gasping quickly and it stops eating. After some days, the colors are brighter and brighter. And then, the fish dies.

It makes me really, really sad that my fish is dying, because before, everything was so well! I hate to see the fish-group shrink - these fish means a lot to me, and I have no idea what is happening! I'm afraid it is a form of water-intoxication - can that be the reason why my fish are dying? The weird thing is, that this only happens for one fish at a time ...

I hope that there are some who know what this is, and how to cure! : (


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Hmm. What are your water quality paramters? Filtration, temperature? How much water are you changing?

I recommend delousing the group- meaning do a broad spectrum anti-parasitic treatment. You don't want to stress them, though- so I suggest doing a 5-day metro dosing schedule. I have used this with all my fish, including xenos, paracyps, even holding fish and young fry don't appear stressed from metronidazole. But, at higher pH, metro settles out, so you'll need to dose every day, and I recommend a water change every day while dosing.

I'm not seeing you describe the classic signs of internal parasites, but at least this is one thing we can rule out.

The next would be something in your tap water- can you get the technical analysis from the utility company?


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## Multi (Apr 21, 2012)

I'll take a look on that medicine, thank you very much! How much do you dose every day, triscuit?

I have three aquariums, and I use tap water in all of them - and there is no problems in the other ones (One at 63 l with plants and one at 180 with Tanganyika cichlids too).

I read an article today about this fish. It says that sometimes they can get flaggelate symptoms if they're stressed. But they don't look stressed, and they don't chase each other around in the aquarium. I asked a man back in Denmark what he would think it could be, and he said that maybe it could be flaggelate. Hmm, I just don't think they have the symptoms. I don't know ... Could it be a possibility?


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I too would try a broad spectrum anti-parasitic treatment. That is if the situation is not worth finding a fish Vet who can Id the exact prob from a sacrificed individual for post mortom and scaping Id.

I dought the changes in conditions/maintainance would leed to these problems unless you have a real chronic disease grumbling away in the background.
Personaly I suspect Cryptobia but then that was my prob with WC that caused me to cut my losses and kill all those infected or exposed to the same water and try again from scratch.

All the best James


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## Multi (Apr 21, 2012)

I am now sure that I have got rid of the disease in the aquarium! On the same day that I got the medicine, the disease seemed to be gone. It disappeared just as quickly as it came. Now, after a week, I'm almost sure about that I, with the loss of some fish, are heading to be back on track again. 

Last time I changed some of the water in the aquarium was a week ago, and I removed a lot of algae - I had a lot more algae than I thought! For the algae did not grow outwards to the sides - they just grew in height, so I think that I could remove about 1-2 cm algae on some places. Weird!
Well, it was removed, and now, a week after, I think that the new algae are really delicious, because today I saw the fish graze - for the first time! 
They grazed on the large module to the left in the aquarium, 1-4 at a time, and my wavemaker now really proved its worth; the fish floated back and forth in the water, just as they do in Lake Tanganyika because of the waves. It's pretty cool to see that in my own aquarium!
And when you sit there, perfectly still in front of the aquarium, you can really follow the behavior of the fish, which was pretty fun, entertaining - and interesting! I could see that a pattern formed in the way that the fish behaved: when a couple of fish was grazing on the module and the rest of the fish swam in a group a little behind them in the middle of the aquarium, a male came from the front of the fish school and chased the other fish back to the school. Sometimes so he could graze by himself, but he always went back to the other fish after a very short time. The funny thing was, that most of the time he returned to the school with the other fish, the ones who were grazing - as a sheepdog herding its flock. It was quite funny to watch, because I don't think that the fish got his point - they just returned to the module to graze again and again, and he chased them back to the group of fish again and again. And it was the same male who did it all the time! 

That was a little observation from a Micro-owner 


























Daylight, moonlight, an inhabitant 

And yes, my mother and my younger brother has had a lot of fun by decorating the front of the aquarium!


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## Multi (Apr 21, 2012)

Since last time i wrote in this thread, the flock has become bigger! About a month ago I received 6 Micros and 8 X. bathyphilus Kekese from Germany.

Eveyrything is going well. At the first day the new Micros got some of their tails bitten of by the "old" Micros, but after that, there haven't been any problems. And today they're tails are just fine. They have been included in the flock almost without problems.

The Xenos are also doing very well. They swim with the Micros, and when it's feeding time, all the xenos swims fast across the sand in a group and searchs for food between the rocks. They are so nice! I was a little excited about how it would go to mix these to species together, but it all goes very well. I can also see that the fish are less shy now after the flock have been doubled.


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