# level... enough?



## Atlaspup (Dec 23, 2014)

hello, I'm setting up a 75g for the first time. I have it level to where the bubble is within the black lines on my level. From one end to the other it looks nearly perfect. From front to back the edge of the bubble is right at one of the black lines. I thought that would be ok, add water and its about 3/16s different from one end to the other. I have looked online and some people say it has to be exactly level, others say their tanks havent been level for years. I was just wondering what everyone here says.

As long as the level bubbles are between the lines am I good?

Thanks in advance.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You don't want any twist. So if the front is consistently higher than the back on both sides, you can live with it. If one corner is off from the others, work on getting a more perfect level.


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## The Cichlid Guy (Oct 18, 2014)

Sometimes I get lucky, but my tanks are usually slightly angled. It's not as big an issue as many think. As DJ said, just make sure your tank isn't bending.


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## joescaper1 (Feb 14, 2013)

3/16ths is quite a bit and (depending on your water level) may show up as a lower than your trim on one end but higher on the other.

A lot of questions go into the answer.

Is your stand level?
Is your stand flat?
If your stand is not level, can you make it level by shimming between the stand and the floor?
If your stand is not flat, are you using styrofoam between the top of your stand and your tank?
Is it glass or acrylic?

As stated, twist is undesirable. Enough twist in a glass tank will ultimately pull apart the silicone seam or crack the glass.

Joe


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## Atlaspup (Dec 23, 2014)

Thank you for your speedy replies. The stand is flat and level, the floor not so much. I worked more on shimming it last night, after the first two replies just forgot to reply. It didn't have a twist, and now it's level as I can tell.


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## PhinFan1981 (Nov 15, 2014)

My tanks are both consistently uneven from left to right. They are equally uneven in the front and back (about quarter inch) max.My question is about twisting. I have had a seam let go before. I wonder if I had twist then and could have avoided this disaster. Is the best to check this if one corner of the tank lower than the others? Is it always safe to assume the tank trim at the top of the glass is straight? LoL...I have always been very paranoid since that seem let go. If I wasn't sitting there watching tv when it started to drip,it could have been one heck of a mess to come him or wake up to. Any advice or ideas to watch for would be much appreciated.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

It's best for all to be level. It sounds like you did not have a twist from your description, but you did have a seam let go which indicates a twist or a flaw or some problem. I'd be paranoid too and try to level things up.


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## PhinFan1981 (Nov 15, 2014)

The one that the seam let go appeared more level than my two tanks are now. It was also only two years old as well. I did not ever assume the tank seam let go due to unlevel.I always assumed it was just a flaw in the seam coming from the manufacturer. when I read this thread about twisting,it got me thinking about the unlevel tanks I have now.The only way to get the tanks level now would be to drain them...sounds like a fun project right after Christmas.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Be sure to level the stand and not the tank.


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## PhinFan1981 (Nov 15, 2014)

I guess I have my work cut out for me tomorrow. Thanks guys! Will wood shims under the stand be sufficient? One is on carpet and the other is on hardwood floor.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

go to home depot and get som very thick styrofoam. the pink stuff that is a few inches thick. put it on top of the stand underneath the tank. the foam will absorb any pressure that may occur if its not level. i do it with my 8' tanks


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

sumthinfishy said:


> go to home depot and get som very thick styrofoam. the pink stuff that is a few inches thick. put it on top of the stand underneath the tank. the foam will absorb any pressure that may occur if its not level. i do it with my 8' tanks


Sorry, this isn't true. Styro will absorb differences in flatness but will not absorb differences in level. If it is not level before the styro, it will still be not level after. While it may seem to be a pain, making the set up level isn't really harder than making it partly level.Small amounts of torquing are difficult to see, but may be enough to over strain a tank. Tanks are not that easy to break, yet we still hear stories of blown seams and strange cracks.
More important than level is that all four corners are in the same plane. Again, this can be difficult to see. Easiest way to ensure this is to make it level. If you are using a level with a bubble vial, either single or double, you should check the accuracy of the level. This can be done by placing it on a flat surface. The surface doesn't have to be level. Note where the bubble is, then spin it 180 degrees (exactly the same spot) and check the bubble(s). They must be in the same place for the level to be accurate. Some mono vial levels can be adjusted to dial them in. Those with cast in double vials don't have adjustment.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

BillD said:


> sumthinfishy said:
> 
> 
> > go to home depot and get som very thick styrofoam. the pink stuff that is a few inches thick. put it on top of the stand underneath the tank. the foam will absorb any pressure that may occur if its not level. i do it with my 8' tanks
> ...


yes, it will still not be level. my statement was that styro will "absorb the pressure of not being level". the styro will take in pressure on tank that is not level by absorbing it. a hard surface has no give to it so any torquing pressure isput on the tank. the styrocan absorb the difference in pressure allowing tank to sit comfortably. so yes tank will still not be level, but pressure will e off of it. this is what i was always taught. is this false?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

There is a lot of conflicting info on styro...most manufacturers say don't use it. I would not assume it would compensate for a stand that is not level.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

i ordered my glass 8' 240 gal tank from a very reputable manufacturer in tennessee. the manufacturer instructed me to use the styro underneath.


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## PhinFan1981 (Nov 15, 2014)

I drained the tank on the hardwood floor today. Removed all the rockwork. Totally cleaned and overhauled everything.( 5 hours from start to finish) LoL. The stand was slightly off. The bubble was inside the lines all around the stand...just slightly to right side. I moved the stand 4" to the left (no shimming) and the bubble was dead center all around. Once I put the tank back on the stand it was slightly offlevel to the right again. Sliding stand and tank back to original position only made a hair of difference more to the right. I put the tank back to the left 4" of original position and refilled it. I can't even see much difference from what it was before today.It must be the way the floor is flexing under the weight of the whole load.I feel pretty confident that the tank isn't twisting.I guess it was good to do the overhaul,but I will be letting the other tank be for now. LoL. Rearranging all the rock work definitely shook up the pecking order and riled all the fish up. It's been interesting to watch tonight. It's an all male with 14 mbuna in it and the Red Zebra has been the top dawg for quite a while,but tonight seems to be submissive to the Johanni.There is a lot of action and facing off.Hope things calm down by tomorrow.LoL.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

sumthinfishy said:


> BillD said:
> 
> 
> > sumthinfishy said:
> ...


Your basic understanding is correct. Styro will absorb discrepencies. It is the details that are important. If you happen to have a pebble on the styro and put a tank bottom on it the pebble will sink into the styro. Same if the debris is on the stand under the styro. If the stand has a slight arc on the top, in either direction, the styro can absorb that.For example I have a couple of steel stand I built for some 12" x 12" x 48" tanks I built.When I built the stands I very carefully chose the pieces of steel I used. After the welding there was a slight bow(about 1/8" in the centre) in the long pieces on both stands. Each stand holds two tanks. I placed 1" styro on the frames, which are open, and placed the rimless tanks on the styro. As the tanks were filled the styro gave slightly on the ends until the entire length was supported. So, the bottom of the styro matches the curve of the stand and the top is perfectly flat.The actual amount of depression in the styro is very small. because the tanks are rimless I would not have placed the glass directly on the metal anyway, even if the top was perfectly flat.
In the case of a tank that would have a twist, if it were very slight, such as one corner being slightly lower or higher than the other three, it may or may not absorb all the difference. Styro, and I use the softer white, is actually quite firm and capable of supporting a fair bit of weight before deforming. Even tanks with rims don't sink in very much. That is the beauty of it; it can absorb and support at the same time.
I think it is worth mentioning here that glass bottoms can be supported the same way as acrylic bottoms and for the same reason. Glass that doesn't flex, doesn't break. The reason trimmed tanks have the bottom raised is to prevent an inadvertent point load on the bottom such as would be created by placing a tank on a single grain of gravel.It isn't because the glass shouldn't be supported (which is often stated on forums). When Crystal Aquarium started manufacturing unframed all glass tanks in the late 50s, they were having tanks returned with broken bottoms because of people placing them on a piece of gravel. They began adding a frame around the bottom to lift it up and prevent this.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

i actually got sick of reading your explanation after the first paragraph. i stick to my original opinion that styro works


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## Loume (Dec 27, 2014)

Wow, I wasn't even aware they even had frameless aquariums back in the 50's. I must've just got the cheap stuff when I was a kid back in the early 70's. My earliest aquariums were completely framed in wide stainless steel, even all four corners from top to bottom, they were sealed with some sort of black tarry substance, and the bottoms were slate. But then it seems like I've always been lagging the latest technology, still am.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

A local gent stumbled on the idea of using silicone to build a an aquarium out of glass with no frame. He had been using the silicone in his work. With two partners, they formed Crystal Aquarium to manufacture the tanks. This was circa 1957. They were primarily sold in Canada, although some made their way to stores near the border in the US as they got bigger. Around 1961, there was a man in Florida who took credit for making the first all glass tank held together with silicone. He did not know of Crystal Aquarium, so, as far as he knew, his claim was true. With information technology today, this type of info would travel quickly.


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## Loume (Dec 27, 2014)

Interesting, I didn't know... I still have a 75g 18 year old perfecto tank in operation. It's framed (plastic) around top and bottom and center braces across top and bottom. the only place the bottom glass is supported is around the edges and across the center. I'd never even heard about using any styro/foam product underneath tanks until recently.

I should probably reseal soon, replace or repurpose as I can see bubbling/water infiltration? in the silcone joint edges at the corners that began appearing several years ago.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

By design having the tank supported only by the frame is good. Bubbles in the silicone are OK as long as they are on the inside glass margins and not in the joints between glass panels.


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## Loume (Dec 27, 2014)

DJRansome said:


> By design having the tank supported only by the frame is good. Bubbles in the silicone are OK as long as they are on the inside glass margins and not in the joints between glass panels.


Unfortunately it is in the joint itself between glass panels. But having the top and bottom frames, I think it would be very unlikely to burst open, and would probably begin to show slight seepage before any worse leakage. Regardless, I need to be planning ahead........


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

For what it is worth, I still have the first tank I ever built, circa 1967. I used a squeeze tube of silicone and the butt joints are full of bubbles. It still holds water.


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