# 86 gallon SA - Need help with fish choosing.



## Kjaer

First of all - IÂ´m sorry about the very bad english. Hope you understand 

IÂ´m going to start up a 86 gallon SA tank (130x50x50 cm). The main fishes will be apistogrammas and other dwarfcichlids. The tank will be decorated with about 5 kg red moor wood, 5 kg mangrove roots, sand, leafs and maybe some rocks.

But... I dont know which fishes i should have. 
It would be fun if i could find fishes who is living toghether in the nature, but I dont know if its possible... I can find out which contrys ad sometimes the rivers a fish live in, but i cant find any information about other fishes at the location. So please help me!
The ideal was if i could find a Corydoras, a "big" dwarfcichlid, an apisto and a tetra who lives together i nature 

Mvh. 
Johan Kjaer


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## Kjaer

i=in


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## edburress

Hey Johan,

You have a lot of options with a tank that size, and there are plenty of fish that come from the same areas to choose from. Generally the dwarf cichlids are the focus, so it is easier to decide which ones you like, and go from there...

Rio Guapore and surrounding areas, Bolivia/Brazil
Microgeophagus altispinosa
Apistogramma trifasciata
Apistogramma linkei
Apistogramma staecki
Laetacara dorsigera
Laetacara curviceps

Rio Ucayali, Peru
Apistogramma cacatuoides
Apistogramma agassizii
Apistogramma nijsseni
Apistogramma eunotus

Rio Orinoco, Brazil/Venezuela/Colombia
Microgeophagus ramirezi
Apistogramma macmasteri
Apistogramma viejita I and II
Apistogramma hongsloi
Dicrossus filamentosus

Rio *****, Brazil
Dicrossus filamentosus
Taeniacara candidi
Apistogramma pertensis
Apistogramma elizabethae

Filling in isn't very difficult, there are Corydoras with specific distributions, and tetra as well, and tetras that span several areas.

Ed


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## Kjaer

Thank you very much! But its still difficult to choose - I like all of them  
Do you think i could have 3 species?


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## Fishguy28

You sure can, I have five different species in a 55 gal. I will say though if you want more than more species then Apistogramma Nijsseni is probably out of the question. they are quite aggressive as far as Apistos go, I could never keep more than a pair in a tank and even that proved somewhat difficult.They also say you will run into trouble mixing fish from the same species complex like Apistogramma Macmasteri , Hongsloi, Viejita.

Ed may I mention that Cacatuoides are found throughout the Amazon so they will fit in everywhere except maybe the Bolivia set up.

My recommendation would be,

Apistogramma Cacatuoides 
Apistogramma Hongsloi
Dicrossus Filamentosus

You could also substitute one of these with Microgeophagus Ramirezi.


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## Dutch Dude

Heey Johan,.....your doing fine on English. They are used to me so you shouldn't have problems :wink:

A biotope tank is realy interesting! A biotope tank is a tank with plants and inhabitants from the same aria. That doesn't have to be the same river. There is a lot of info abouth biotope tanks on www.mongabay.com. If you enter the site you can hit the pic of the fish un top of the page. From there you find all sorts of info and one of them is abouth biotopes. Ed has made already some nice suggestions and I can add some for the Rio Guapore (on the border of Brazil and Bolivia)

Rio Guapore:
Apistogramma Agassizzii
Corydoras sp. Guapore
Corydoras Haraldschultzi
Rummynose tetra
Pinguinfish (tetra)

From the cichlids the Bolivians (Microgeophagus Altispinasa) are the easiest and they can be kept in a small group. Your tank has plenty of options so you could do for example 5 Bolivians and a harem (1 male 3 female) of A. Agassizzii (easy to get over here). Maybe even a couple of Laetacara dorsigera can be added to. I'm not to sure abouth the Laeticare becouse they can be a bit territorial during spawning but maybe someone can hump in abouth that. A nice large school of the mentioned tetras would be great to! Your tank is long and plenty of room so a large school of 25 tetras would be stunning!

Ruurd


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## pk333

G'day Kjaer,

I was always going to waite for Ruurd to post before I jumped in. I can't believe he didn't recommend Bolivian Rams. I saw edburress include them in one of his setups.
As for tank decorations, go with your roots and bogwood, I would also consider some SA plants, and maybe a couple of smallish river rocks.

Here's a biotope setup. Ruurd I hope I haven't stolen you Mikrogeophagus altispinosus setup.

*Rio Mamore drainage - Bolivia*

*Cichlids*
1 pair Laetacara dorsigera
1m/2f Apistogramma staecki*
2 pair Mikrogeophagus altispinosus

*If you can't find this species of apistogramma you could look at substituting with a trio of Apistogramma trifasciata. Trifasciata are native to Bolivia, I just can't find any record of them being found in the Rio Mamore drainage.

*Tetras & Dither Fish*
_native to Bolivia, may not be found in the Rio Mamore _
18 Hyphessobrycon Megalopterus - Black phantom tetra 
or
Gymnocorymbus ternetzi - Black tetra 
&
12 Thoracocharax stellatus - Spotfin hatchetfish
&
6 Nannostomus trifasciatus - Threestripe pencilfish 
or
Nannostomus unifasciatus - Oneline pencilfish

*Catfish*
_native to Bolivia, may not be found in the Rio Mamore _
4 Otocinclus vestitus
9 Corydoras hastatus
6 Corydoras sterbai
2 Ancistrus bolivianus


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## Kjaer

Thanks for the answers erveryone.

Bolivian rams, trifasciata/staecki and dorsigera sounds interesting. IÂ´ve had bolivian rams before and i really liked them - wonderful fishes.

Ruurd: Whats the latin names og Pengiunfish and rummynose?

Which plants grow in Rio Guapore/Bolivia?


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## HanDsomB1derful

makes me want another tank all ican say is that a pair of bolivians went mental in my 4ft when they spawned killed another b.ram,1blue ram,and hamered apair of angels (they used 2 pay it back wehn they spawned) any ways the brood went missing then the male killed the female i still have him hes about 3years old now he might be a 1 off cause he chases my teenage GT(just getting his hump) ,goldsuam,auqedins sp u no waht imean any ways i can never find good apistos here in sydney and id hate for them to get smashed buy something not so rare.

oh yer he runs wehn the GT turns around its so funny

oh no its wombat grass


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## Kjaer

Thanks for the answers erveryone.

Bolivian rams, trifasciata/staecki/agazissii and dorsigera sounds interesting. IÂ´ve had bolivian rams before and i really liked them - wonderful little fishes

Ruurd: Whats the latin names for Pengiunfish and rummynose?


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## Kjaer

Kjaer said:


> Thanks for the answers erveryone.
> 
> Bolivian rams, trifasciata/staecki/agazissii and dorsigera sounds interesting. IÂ´ve had bolivian rams before and i really liked them - wonderful little fishes
> 
> Ruurd: Whats the latin names for Pengiunfish and rummynose?


Sorry about the doublepost


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## Kjaer

I think it will be this fishes:
1.1 M. altispinosus
1.2 A. trifasciata
11. L. dorsigera.
0.0.15-20 C. Sterbai
0.0.20 Hyphessobrycon Megalopterus

Is Rio Mamore blackwater og clearwater?


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## Kjaer

Do you think i could keep Apistogramma agassizii and A. panduro together with Biotodoma cupido?
It very hard to choose


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## Dutch Dude

Peter,....hahaha,....well I did recommend the Bolivians but only in the end of my previous post :lol:

Pinguin fish = Thayeria boehlkei (in the middle and higher regions of the tank and quit active)
Rummynose = Hemigrammus bleheri (friendly peaceful tetra)

Sorry I have to make a correction,....the Hemigrammus bleheri doesn't occur in the Guapore river  But,....they would be great fish in the suggested set up.

From what I have heard the B. Cupid are quit territorial and probably not the best selection for a community tank with small fish. If you would be interested in a Guiana Biotope I can give good recommendations for the Guianacara! You could have a small group of 5 or 6 of them with some other fish like corydoras or larger tetras. But to be honest,....I think your idea for the M. Altispinosa, A. trifasciata and L. dorsigera is much more interesting. Those are small cichlids and in a tank that size, low light levels, lots of wood / roots and some small wood particles and some leaves would create a situation you be attracted to serge for all those fish. A nice large school of tetras would realy be great!


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## Kjaer

Okay, i skip B. cupido then. IÂ´m waiting impatient for the tank to arrive 

And again - thanks for the help everyone. I post some pics when im finished with the project.


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## Kjaer

Ruurd: Are you sure that A. agassizii lives in Rio Guapore?


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## Dutch Dude

Johan,...sorry you are right! Shame on me! The Agassizzi aren't occurring in the Guapore. Did you checked Mongabay?

Ruurd


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## Kjaer

Dutch Dude said:


> Johan,...sorry you are right! Shame on me! The Agassizzi aren't occurring in the Guapore. Did you checked Mongabay?
> 
> Ruurd


Yes i have checked mongabay


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## Dutch Dude

Good to hear and lots of biotope info on there. Sorry I gave wrong info and I pay more attention to it next time.


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## Kjaer

All the fishes i choosed live in Rio Guapore, but i cant find so much information about the river. Is it blackwater or clearwater?


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## Dutch Dude

You can check this link,....it is suggesting the Rio Guapore is a blackwater river.

http://www.aquatic-hobbyist.com/profile ... ccory.html

I also find some info that the Bolivian river would carry a lot of sediment coming from the Andes. So this points that the Guapore should be a whitewater river.

So,...to be honest,...I realy don't know! But,....if you want to turn it in a black water biotope it will surely display much better as a white water river :wink:


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## edburress

:lol: :lol: I was under the impression that it was primarily of the "clear water" type. From the information I have of the collection sites of Microgeophagus altispinosa and A. trifasciata the pH is between 7.4 and 7.6 which is quite high for the typical "black water" type. The water was recorded as being clear and having a yellow to ocre color much like typical "clear water", not being murky enough to be white water, nor dark enough color to be black water.

Its just my best guess, there are probably sections of the Rio Guapore that are similar to all three types.

Ed


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## Terra Incognita

A. agassizii has the largest range of any Apisto -- it's a major-league range for any fish - so there are many regional variations. The Rio Tefe agassizii, for instance, show two distinct color forms. One is very red but similar to other aggie color forms. The other is spangled like a Christmas ornament.

From the Rio Guapore, as far as Apistogramma spp. are concerned, and I think someone (or more than one) has mentioned is _Apistogramma sp. 'Rio MamorÃ© '_, the Rio GuaporÃ© population specifically. There's Red & Blue tail morphs found together in the Rio GuaporÃ©. You can tell they're from Rio GuaporÃ© because the male's back will have a more golden colour like the Rio GuaporÃ© populations of A. cf. trifasciata.

Also, one or two _Lasiancistrus guapore_ would make fine additions to a Guapore Biotope, and live in close quarters with the Apistogrammas I mentioned above.

_Corydoras Guapore_ I believe was also mentioned, and an 86 gallon would make a fantastic home for quite a large shoal!

This is basically all the information I have on the top of my head, so I can't tell you much more without doing some research, but I hope this little bit helps!


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## Kjaer

Im not making a real blackwater biotope then. I will let the water get colored a little by the roots and have some plants to. I think it will be some Ehinodorus planted i groups. And then i just hope that Rio Guapore looks like that  
I cant wait until the tank arrives :lol:


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## Dutch Dude

I've seen some Corydoras Guapore but man,..they are expensive! They cost 7,95 Euro! That's abouth $11,- Nice big school :?

Johan,...as you discovered by now there isn't much info available abouth the Guapore. Possibly there are different water types like Ed mentioned.


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## DeadFishFloating

Dutch Dude said:


> I've seen some Corydoras Guapore but man,..they are expensive! They cost 7,95 Euro! That's abouth $11,- Nice big school :?
> 
> Johan,...as you discovered by now there isn't much info available abouth the Guapore. Possibly there are different water types like Ed mentioned.


ohh geez that expensive Ruurd...NOT! 

I've bitched enough about prices of fish down here plenty of times. Most standard, very common corydoras species are $12 each here, so are otocinclus. I've seen some Corydoras species up into the $30 range. My trio of Corydoras melanistius were $22 each. :roll:


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## Kjaer

Dutch Dude said:


> I've seen some Corydoras Guapore but man,..they are expensive! They cost 7,95 Euro! That's abouth $11,- Nice big school :?
> 
> Johan,...as you discovered by now there isn't much info available abouth the Guapore. Possibly there are different water types like Ed mentioned.


That wasnÂ´t very cheap.  Its a nice cory but i donÂ´t think I can afford it and its not sure that i can find it at the LFS...


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## Dutch Dude

Hahaha,....yeeeh Peter (Deadfishfloating) but over here $11,- is expensive for 1 corydoras and most are around $5,- except for the Sterbay. Oto's cost around $3 over here. For $30 you can buy 2 inch red turquase Discus. Soooo,...I think Australia is a great country except if you are into the aquarium hobby.

Johan,....how abouth C. Bilineatus? They were also from the Guapore right? Ooooh I'm hoping I am right this time :lol: They should not be that expensive.


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## Kjaer

Planetcatfish says that it lives in Bolivia but nothing abuot Rio Guapore... So maybe.. maybe not


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## Dutch Dude

Unfortunately they are from the Madeira according to Fishbase.


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## Kjaer

Okay, but I really like Sterbai so I think it will be them And maybe some Corydoras hastatus too...


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## Dutch Dude

Well I think the Sterbai are great looking corys and the hastatus,......wonderful especially in lager groups in a dwarf set up! They swim across the whole tank almost like tetras! Good choice Johan :thumb:


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## Kjaer

Thanks Ruurd. I think it will be 10 sterbaiÂ´s and about 15 hastatus then.


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## Dutch Dude

Sounds like a nice plan Johan! :thumb:


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## Kjaer

Maybe its time for an update now 

The tank have arrived but look what happened to it under the shipping 








So i have to wait another 2-3 weeks for a new...

Heres some pics of the driftwood

















Eheim 2028 Professional 2









The lamp:


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## DeadFishFloating

G'day *Kjaer*,

Pity about the tank. Are they replacing it at no extra expense?

That's some nice looking driftwood you got there. I could use some in my tank right now.


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## Kjaer

> Pity about the tank. Are they replacing it at no extra expense?


 Yes they are


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## panagotis

i was reading on this post and i wanted to see what bolivian rams looked like and they look cool, so does any body know if i can get this in australia? they look like geophagus family?


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## DeadFishFloating

panagotis said:


> i was reading on this post and i wanted to see what bolivian rams looked like and they look cool, so does any body know if i can get this in australia? they look like geophagus family?


There called Mikrogeophagus altispinosus, and yes they are available in Australia. Ask your LFS if they can get some in for you. But make sure they are from a local breeder and not from a South East Asian fish farm. Never touch a fish from a SEA fish farm.


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## Kjaer

I think i will place them something like this


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## Kjaer

Not in my bed of corse, but in the aquaria :lol: 
I have decided to try some geophagus instead of dwarfcichlids... Now when I got the place for them it would be fun to try.


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## Dutch Dude

Panagotis,....if you like the Bolivians you can check the BRC post and you will find a lot of pics and solid info and discussions abouth the specie. Ooh and by the way,...they are relatives of the Geophagus family only in a small package.

Johan,...pitty abouth the broken tank and the delay. You got some nice equipment (Eheim Pro2) and i realy like the driftwood!!! Perfect with all those branches and I would kill for pieces like that!!!

So you still have some doubts abouth the new inhabitants? Did you checked the Guianacara? They are also and eartheater but stay smaller and do have some very interesting social behaviour.


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## Kjaer

IÂ´ve just checked it. It looks very nive and interesting behavior but if I should have eartheaters i think it will be either Geophagus sp. PindarÃ© og Geophagus "orange head Tapajos".


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## Dutch Dude

Excellent choice Johan and both small fish. :thumb:


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## Kjaer

og=or 

Ruurd: I like both of them and specially Pindare got a very interesting breedingbehavior. But I still like the dwarfcichlid setup... I think the only solution is buying another tank :lol:


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## Dutch Dude

Hahaha,...yeeeeh I know Johan and I was leaning towards Apisto's to but I decided to go with a larger number of Guianacara. By the way,....I took the Bahia Red back to my lfs becouse they were to temperament and to large for my tank. I would like a small tank with some apisto's but hey,...there must be something to dream abouth is't it :wink:

Both Geo's are nice fish and the easiest available would be the Orange Head (over here in Europe). Orange Heads are known to be very active fish and do have a bit more temperament compared to most Geo's. So from that point of view and considering the limited space my favourite would be the Pindare. Besides that,....they aren't that common and realy something special! Both species probably doesn't work. I would go for 5 or 6 Pindare and some small inhabitants like tetras.


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## Kjaer

I think it will be PindarÃ© and maybe some corydoras or L066. Orange head Tapajos i really nice but maybe it is a bit to big and active for my tank...

Yes, some small dwarfcichlid tanks would be nice. Only 5-6 20 gallons or so :wink: :lol:


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## Dutch Dude

Hahaha,...yeeeh a whole bunch of small apisto tanks,....only the energy bill is a big pain in the a..!!!!

So Johan,....after all you end up with a very nice plan and if you succeed in getting those Pindare you will have some great fish to!!! Do you keep us updated?

Ruurd


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## Kjaer

Of course I keep you updated :wink: I think I will build the bench this week and then I can do anymore before the new and hopefully not broken tank arrives


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## Kjaer

The LFS could only take Geophagus orange head tapajos home. And they was very expensive! So i changed my decision again   It *will* be dwarfcichlids!


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## Dutch Dude

:lol: well plenty of options left and you already got some nice suggestions of good priced and easy to get fish :wink: Soooo I guess you will update us abouth your new fish list?


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## Kjaer

The fact is... I donÂ´t know. It depends on wich species the LFS can take home... So i wont deside anything before i know that.

Does anyone know what the natural habitat of bolivian rams looks like? Are there a lot of plants or is it just leafs and roots?
IÂ´ve found some pics of Mikrogeophagus ramirezi in its natural habitat (http://www.mikofish.com/gpage47.html ), but I cant find any of the bolivian ram...


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## Kjaer

The aquarium stand is finished except of some paint and doors 










The new (and hopefully not broken) tank will arrive in some days.


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## Dutch Dude

Johan,

The pics you found on the natural habitat are in fact of wild M. Ramirezii in stead of M. Altispinosa. What i know abouth the natural habitat of the Bolivians is that it is heavily planted arias along the shallow parts of rio Guapore and Mamore and some of its tributaries all in Bolivia (on and close to the eastern and north east border with Brazil). Because of the heavy vegetation the water flows slowly in these arias and light quantity is low.

For the home aquarium I recommend a heavy planted tank with some broad leaved larger Echinodorus and pieces of driftwood and some flat stones where they can spawn on.

I hope I answered your question.

Nice looking stand so far and I'm curious how it will look like when it is finished. One question,.....is there any support in the middle of the stand (between the doors) or does the plywood have to carry the waight?


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## Kjaer

Yes, i know its ramirezi. Thats why I asked if anyone had pics of the bolivian ram in its natural habitat :wink:

Thanks for the biotope info! Sounds like its not so different from M. ramireziÂ´s habitat.

No there is not any support in the middle, but the construction is very strong so I donÂ´t think there will be any problems...


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## Dutch Dude

Hahaha,.....jeh not so bright of me isn't it :lol:

I think it would be wise to add some support in the middle. Just in case and to prevent the stand for bending in the middle. You could add it on the inside and it won't be visible. Well,...you can give it a thought. What are your plans on a hood? Are you going to build one your self or buy one?


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## Kjaer

Maybe thats a good idea, i will tell my dad to do it... (It is build by him, iÂ´m not so handy  )
I have already buyed a hood, I think there is a picture of it in this tread...


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## Dutch Dude

Johan,....maybe the structure is strong enough but with a tank on it I would not take any risks. Your dad can mount the brays on the inside between the upper and the lower frame. It won't be visible from the outside. Glue it will be enough and the hardest part is to get a tight fit between the upper and lower frame. So far your dad did a terrific job and I'm curious how it will look like when the stand is finished.


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## Kjaer

So it is not enough with the horizontal laths in the top frame and the chipboard at the back of the stand?


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## Dutch Dude

Johan,...I see 2 brays in the front panel between the doors. That's great and provide strength in the middle of the stand so it can't bend. On the back side I don't see a support between the top and bottom frame. The back is chipboard and if this becomes wet (leakage) there won't be much strength left in that. It is fit between the top and bottom frame and does prevent bending of the top frame. Soooo,...when the stand stays dry, no problem at all. When the back (chipboard) becomes wet you take a risk. If you don't add the extra support in the middle I suggest to pay some extra attention on painting the chipboard. The stand looks solid and your dad did a great job :thumb:


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## Kjaer

> The back is chipboard and if this becomes wet (leakage) there won't be much strength left in that. It is fit between the top and bottom frame and does prevent bending of the top frame. Soooo,...when the stand stays dry, no problem at all. When the back (chipboard) becomes wet you take a risk. If you don't add the extra support in the middle I suggest to pay some extra attention on painting the chipboard.


I talked with me dad about it and he will mount 2 brays at the back to. Thanks for the help!



> The stand looks solid and your dad did a great job Thumb


 Thank you. I will tell that to my dad


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## Dutch Dude

OK Johan,...you chose the save way :thumb:

And dad,....realy a great job :thumb:


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## Kjaer

First layer of paint!


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## Dutch Dude

Looks good Johan! Oooh and before you put a tank on top, I suggest to add a thin Styrofoam layer. A thickness of 1 or 2 cm would be perfect.


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## Kjaer

Thanks. Yes, styrofoam is always a good idea, specially with a wood stand... So that will be added, but first i have to add 1-2 layers of paint...


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## Dutch Dude

Yes that's why I mentioned it. :wink:

do you keep us updated


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## Kjaer

IÂ´m tired of waiting for the tank now...  There have been a lot of troubles with it, but it should come in next week. Its difficult to do anything without the tank


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## Dutch Dude

I went trough the same last summer when I build 4 stands and 3 hoods. It takes a lot of time and energy and waiting is the hardest thing. Think of it this way,.....without the tank you have all the time to finish the stand properly and get the paint dried properly before putting a tank on top.

How abouth a background? Will you buy one or will it be a DIY project to?


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## Kjaer

No, the background will just be black plastic  Maybe I will build some modules but not a whole background...


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## Kjaer

The new tank arrived to day. And i wasnÂ´t broken  
I tried to put the wood and stones in it:


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## Dutch Dude

Johan,...I really love the wood and the planed set up :thumb: I can't wait to see the tank when it is finished!


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## Kjaer

Thanks!! What do you think of some swordplants placed at the left of the wood in the right side?


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## Kjaer

Some pics... The water is not so clear and itÂ´s not completely filled as you can see :wink: 
I will continue with it tomorrow.









Coffee, anyone?


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## Dutch Dude

Johan,.....awesome! I can't wait to see the tank when it is cleared out and filled completely!

Well eeeeh,...I'll skip the coffee  I don't think my stomach can handle it 

Nice looking tank by the way! I like those aluminium covers!

Hmmm,...you added quit some peat extract and I certainly would not add more. Remember that the driftwood will add some tannins to. To much peat and you won't be able to see what is in the tank :wink:

For some reason I missed the post of 21 January. Is it right that you made a different set up with the wood? I would definitely added a Echinodorus. The wood you used is so nice and natural to see so I would not cover it to much. Maybe one E. Bartii will give a nice effect. I added some Ceratophyllum as floating plant to my tank. Amazing stuff!!! It grows abouth 20 cm a week without CO2!!!! A great plant for new set ups and to reduce nitrate and Phosphate! I really recommend it in your new set up, at least until the tank is completely cycled. Except for the oxygen production and the consumption of nitrate and phosphate it can also create lots of depth and shaded aria's.

The tank looks great so far and I like to see when your finished the set up and completely filled the tank! So far so good!


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## Kjaer

Okay, maybe I was a bit generous with the peat extract... But I donÂ´t think the driftwood will leak so much tannins, they have been soaking in a tub for over a month.

Yes, iÂ´ve changed the setup to a triangular istead of a concave. I think it looks better this way...

E. Bartii looks nice, but i think its a cultivated variety... And since this is i biotope tank I donÂ´t want anything that doesnÂ´t exist in the nature.

Wow! 20 cm in a week  I will certanainly add some of that!

And thank you for the kind words!


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## Kjaer

Limnobium laevigatum:


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## Dutch Dude

Driftwood can leak tanins for a long long time.

I'm realy curious abouth the new set up and can't wait to see it! Is it correct that you left some open space at the right corner? This would be a perfect spot for a large Echinodorus. Sorry I typed the wrong name and Bartii is indeed a cultivated variety of the Osiris (Osiris is from Paraguay if I'm right). Sooo the large Echinodorus I had in mind was the Bleheri or the Amazonicus.

Yes the Ceratophhyllum demersum / submersum does grow 20 cm in one week without CO2 at low light levels (I have only 2x38 watt on my 360 liter tank). It creates a lot of oxygen and even with a high flow you can see small oxygen bubbles on the leaves!

I like the floating plants and they do belong to SA. I've got Pistiastratiotes but it only becomes abouth 5 cm while with lots of sunlight it grows to 30/ 40 cm. I also had Echornia crassipes but it grow very poor and the plants were even smaller. So I hope you manage to keep the Limnobium at a decent size.

I hope you add soon some pics of the filled tank.


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## Kjaer

> Driftwood can leak tanins for a long long time.


 YouÂ´re right, they can. But I think the most of it has leaked out...



> I'm realy curious abouth the new set up and can't wait to see it! Is it correct that you left some open space at the right corner?


Yes, that right.



> This would be a perfect spot for a large Echinodorus. Sorry I typed the wrong name and Bartii is indeed a cultivated variety of the Osiris (Osiris is from Paraguay if I'm right). Sooo the large Echinodorus I had in mind was the Bleheri or the Amazonicus.


Thats a good idea with a Echinodorus in he left side. Would be a nice focalpoint...
I thinking of adding some Sattigaria too... What do you think about that?



> I hope you add soon some pics of the filled tank.


Well I havent filled it yet.  But IÂ´ll do it soon...[/quote]


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## Kjaer

ItÂ´s filled up!
The water is very cloudy right know. Sorry about the bad image quality...


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## Dutch Dude

Johan,....looks great!!! :thumb:

Seeing the set up I think it would be very nice to put an Echinodorus against the back between the 2 stones on the right side of the tank. If you plant it against the background it will lean forward and create a nice shaded aria. Ill expect that this will give lots of depth.

Just some ideas,......Sagittaria are CA or NA plants so if you want a biotope they won't fit in. In stead of those you can go for the dwarf Echinodorus like tenellus, latifolius and bolivianus. Those grass like Echinodorus are heard to clean unles you put some shrimp in. An other possibility is only one or two Echinodorus parviflorus tropica. This specie will stay small (10 to 15 cm) and is one of my favorite. It is a cultivated specie! But to be honest,.....I would not add the grass like things nor the E. parv. tropica! I would have added only a few stems of Hydrocotyle leucocephala or Cabomba scattered at the back of the tank (to create more contrast with the wood) and a small bush of one of the two species in the left corner behind the wood.


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## Kjaer

Tropica writes that sattigaria subulata are from South America...

Thanks for your mentions! But IÂ´m not going to have more than a few more plants in the tank. I want the real "blackwater feeling" in the tank and i think it gets a bit destroyed if I add too many plants...

But my next tank will be a real planted one in "Amano style". Maybe there will sneak some cichlids into that tank too :lol:


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## Dutch Dude

Johan,...you could be right abouth the Sagittaria subulata. I came across a few web sites that claim it is from SA but also some that claim it is from NA. I'm sure E tenelus and E bolivianus are from SA but the contradiction of the origin of S subulatum confuses me. Dennerle claims it is from NA and CA. :?

Your absolutely right abouth adding to many plants in your tank. I'm not talking abouth a planted tank but only one Echinodorus at the right corner (between the 2 larger stones against the back) and a few stems of Cabomba. Did you seen the vids a couple of weeks ago from youtube? I think they are really inspiring and it made me add the Ceratophyllum.

Check this http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=fishfromvenezuela (lots of vids below)

I like the next vids very much!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuSw2OyV ... re=related (to much peat I think :wink: )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuSw2OyV ... re=related
No blackwater but amazing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWIVCdLO ... re=related
















 (the plants are definitely Eichornia azurea)












 (cabomba)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilnitMs1 ... re=related (amazing isn't it?)





I hope you enjoy the clips


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## edburress

Johan....the tank looks great, keep the pictures coming :thumb:

Ed


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## Kjaer

Ruurd: Thanks for the links. IÂ´ve seen most of them before and they are amazing. Specially the one with the Corydoras!

Ed: Thank you. I will take some more pictures when the water has cleared up.


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## Kjaer

IÂ´ve changed the layout again and the water has cleared up a bit. 
What do you think of this stocking list:

4-5 P. scalare or leopoldi
1.2 apistogrammas
about 10 corydoras
15 nannostomus
5 otocinclus or maybe 2-3 whiptails..?










IÂ´m planning to add 3 or 5 swordplants behind the driftwood.


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## DeadFishFloating

:thumb:


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## Kjaer

Thank you DeadFishFloating


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## DeadFishFloating

I'll have two sugars with mine thanks. :lol:

I like the the central driftwood tangle with the stones around the edges. Also provides good room for a couple of sword plants on the right.


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## Kjaer

Wow! The Limnobium has already growed a lot  Could it be because of the high ammount og ammonia in the water when IÂ´m cykling the tank?


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## Kjaer

Update...


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## Dutch Dude

Heeeey looks great!!!! More like tea in stead of coffee and I like it! Great new scape with the wood and the stones :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: Some oak leaves would be nice to but unfortunately it is the wrong time of year for that.


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## Kjaer

Glad to hear that you like it IÂ´m going to add some ferns on the driftwood, i know there not biotope correct, but IÂ´m thinking of discus and with no plants in the substrate its easy to clean the sand.


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## Dutch Dude

What abouth Eichornia Azurea behind the wood close to the background? They fill in nicely, easy to remove during cleaning (stem plant) fast growing and definitely fitting the biotope. Eichornia Azurea occurs from Venezuela to Uruguay. The need some liquid ferts dough and do best close to the light. I expect 5 Eichornia Azurea will do the job.

Java fern does look nice to, easy to grow but indeed,...unfortunately not from your biotope.

So you are thinking of discus? They are very nice fish and I like the wild reds, santa rem and red turquoise the most! Really nice fish but definitely the more demanding specie,...especially the wild specimen. A pair of Ramirezi would be nice to! You could also *hang* some extra wood in the tank so it looks like branches of a tree hang in the water. This also provide some extra shelter for the discus.

So far the tank looks realy great and you did a very good job Johan :thumb:


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## Kjaer

Eichornia azurea look nice, but iÂ´ve already ordered a Microsorum sp. "phillippine". After all there are no plants in discus natural habitat


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## Dutch Dude

Yeah I know but some plants always do good to a tank, even if it are only some small once. Except for that the plants reduce nitrate and fish are attracted to them as well. Always a good place to hide! So no plants from the biotope (I would be surprised if Eichornia would not occur in the natural habitat dough) but at least you picked out an easy specie that looks nice! So thats worth quit a lot!


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## DeadFishFloating

Kjaer said:


> Eichornia azurea look nice, but iÂ´ve already ordered a Microsorum sp. "phillippine". After all there are no plants in discus natural habitat


There are lots of plants in the discus's natural habitat, during the rain/flood season. 

There aren't any/many rocks though. :roll:


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## Kjaer

DeadFishFloating said:


> Kjaer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Eichornia azurea look nice, but iÂ´ve already ordered a Microsorum sp. "phillippine". After all there are no plants in discus natural habitat
> 
> 
> 
> There are lots of plants in the discus's natural habitat, during the rain/flood season.
> 
> There aren't any/many rocks though. :roll:
Click to expand...

YouÂ´re right about that, but in the dry season there are only floating plants.


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## Dutch Dude

> There are lots of plants in the discus's natural habitat, during the rain/flood season.


 :lol: Yeah,...complete jungles!!! 

Johan,....Eichornia Azurea is a floating plant. It starts with a stem, grows to the surface en develop larger leaves witch will float. The stem will start to decay and a floating plant is born. In the mean time the half decayed stem develops new plants. In the aquarium you need to cut the stem when the plant reaches the surface. If not it will develop as a floating plant and only one plant can cover the surface of your tank.


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## Kjaer

Interesting plant... But I donÂ´t think I can find it here were I live.


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## Dutch Dude

Do you can get a hold on Dennerle over there? It is on their plant list.


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## Kjaer

I think most plants come from Tropica here (near to Denmark were there are produced). IÂ´ve never heard of Dennerle, but maybe...


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## Dutch Dude

Dennerle is a German brand and they have a impressive plant list. Also a lot of colorful cultivate Echinodorus. www.dennerle.de I expect it to be available over there but probably rarely.


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## Kjaer

Wow, they have a lot of plants! But I really donÂ´t think they are available where I live.


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## Dutch Dude

Yes they do have a lots of plant species! They are a bit more expensive but they are of a very good quality! Would be a pity if Dennerle wasn't available over there. Maybe online?


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## Kjaer

There areÂ´nt any online shops that sells Dennerle plants here i Sweden, but maybe there are some i Germany?


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## Dutch Dude

Hmm,...thats realy a pity Johan. They are available in Denmark but probably the market in Sweden is to small for Dennerle.


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## Kjaer

Maybe there are available in Sweden to, but not were I live...


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## Kjaer

Some more driftwood is added as you can see.

IÂ´ve desided that no biotope incorrect plants will be added.

IÂ´m rather satisfied with the auascape now. Just need some ketapang leves and Swordplants know. Some fishes would be fun too. :lol: I have desided to wait with discus until I have some more experience (and money). And the aquascape is best for dwarfcichlids, I think...


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## Dutch Dude

Looks nice Johan!!! :thumb:


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## Kjaer

Thank you!


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## Dutch Dude

The last pic is almost art with the colors on the surface! So,.....how abouth fish? I don't see them.


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## Kjaer

Well, i canÂ´t afford any at the monent... But as soon as I have some money I will buy some fishes!


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## Kjaer

IÂ´ve added the first fishes last friday.

One L134 and a wildcaught pair of Apistogramma baenschi.
Everyone seems to be fine. The male apisto is chasing the female somtimes but i guess thats normal... The leopard frog pleco hides all day. Fortunately often on a place were i can see him.  I guess it just needs some time to acclimate before its getting more active at the daytime.

I will add on or two more L134Â´s and a group of Corydoras, a school of tetras (haveÂ´nt desided wich species yet) and a few more cichlids - probably dwarfs, but IÂ´m thinking og P. leopoldi too.

Will try to take som pics, but its difficult in blackwater!


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## Big Vine

I love the look of your tank...two thumbs-up! :thumb: :thumb: 
BV 8)


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## Kjaer

Thank you!


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## Dutch Dude

Hi Johan! Good to hear you found some nice Apisto's and a fancy beautiful pleco! Your plans for stock sounds nice to me and the P. leopoldi is a nice choice and not seen that often! I specially like the blue on their cheeks. I assume you added caves for the Apistos? If possible it would be nice to add a second female so the atention of the male will be divided between the two females.


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## Kjaer

Hello Ruurd!
Yes, there are a couple of cocunut shells and I also think the driftwood and stones makes many natural caves. But isnÂ´t baenschi a monogamous? I thought so...


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## Dutch Dude

> But isnÂ´t baenschi a monogamous


 Could very well be. I don't think it should be a problem if you add an other female. Maybe one of the females will be ignored but the chance of a pair should be larger right? I don't know but just comes to my mind. Maybe one of the experts on apisto (like apistomaster) can help you with this. If the female get chased all the time I don't think this will be beneficial to her health but I don't know if this is the case. I do know my hongsloi don't chase the females at all and only try to seduce them.



> there are a couple of cocunut shells and I also think the driftwood and stones makes many natural caves


 :thumb:


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## Kjaer

HeÂ´s not chasing her so much anymore and the female seems to be fine. So maybe they will be a pair? If not IÂ´ll add another female, At the very moment when i writing this I see the catfish full visible and active for the first time when the light is turned on! Its a very beatyful fish - looks a bit like a zebra plec.


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## Kjaer

Wow, the female is chasing the male away now. :lol: Tough little fellow.


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## Dutch Dude

> Wow, the female is chasing the male away now. Tough little fellow.


That sounds more like it! :thumb:


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## Kjaer

Heres a bad pic of the female, will try to take one of the male to:









But is it baenschi? I think it looks more like panduro...


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## brian93

thats a neat lookin tank


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## Kjaer

brian93: thanks!

Heres a pic of the L134:








And one of the male apisto:


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## DeadFishFloating

Very nice Peckoltia *Kjaer*. But you need to get a clearer picture of your fish. Next mission now that dwarf SA's are becoming popular on C-F is to convince people to mix in some of the fancy pleco species.  :thumb:


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## Kjaer

Will try, but I am a very bad photographer.  Hope I get better with some practice...
And, yes he is very beatyful. I bought him from a good breeder. Planning to buy one or to more later.


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## DeadFishFloating

Again fancy plecos are illegal to import into Australia, and are very expensive here. I have found one local breeder, who is very well respected on PlecoFanatics. Here's an example of the prices from a breeder. I hate to think how much the apistos are going to cost me in a couple of months.

L002 4cm are 80e or 6/420
L202 4cm are 100e or 6/400
L134 4cm are 250e or 6/1000
L397 4cm are 90e or 6/500

Do have some L333 growing up at the moment they are 125e or 5/550


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## Kjaer

I guess they are illegal because they can survive and reproduce in the australian nature? But the are legal to breed and keep?
That was some very high prices! 
Mine 6 cm L134 costed "only" 63 Australian dollars.


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