# Ahuds 125g A. multispinosus tank



## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Hey all,

Some of you shown interest in my 125g rainbow tank so I thought I would do a short write up, accompanied by some poor video and pictures lol. I wanted to catch more of "the moments", but its hard to capture them. I don't have the patience to document a lot of the more subtle behaviors. For example another pair is forming and its really interesting watch them develop.

Interactions are why I am in the fish keeping hobby. I love watching critters interact, no matter how subtle the interactions may be. I think I missed my calling as a wildlife photographer! Which leads me to my love of fish, they are easy to observe, and show a range of social behaviors. I tend to like fish that are small, "good" parents, and not terribly aggressive. I enjoy putting these types of fish in group settings to watch how they interact. Attracting mates, competing with rivals, fussing over spawning territory, fussing over territorial lines, and all of the drama that comes with raising fry are the main behaviors I want to get out of a tank. In order to see these behaviors at their best, you need multiple individuals of the same species in my opinion.

After reading an article on rainbow cichlids over at Cichlid Room Companion, I knew they were a great candidate for one of my group tanks. They are small, fairly docile, and have evolved to live in close quarters. I started with 5 adults, and although a pair spawned, they had some issues. I lost some from sickness, so I scrapped the group and moved in my 10 juvenile fish. After some interesting courtship, two pairs settled down quickly and claimed their territories on opposite sides of a pile of driftwood and rocks. The interesting courtship was pretty funny; two males wanted the same female. And even after male A had won the female, male B continued trying to court her. Male A would chase male B every time he caught him trying to entice the female away. Finally, Male B settled down with another female. The two pairs are very entertaining to watch. Rainbows are great parents. The only weakness in their parenting is they do not have very good control of their mobile fry, but we see this in many cichlids. Multispinosus have turned out to be one of my favorite fish and a big reason to that is because they have an all bark and no bite attitude. I do think that if I added another species I would miss out on a lot of the subtle behaviors. Even the male Apistogramma in the tank will sometimes push around the multispinosus during feeding time. If we look at the biology behind multispinosus, this makes sense, they are not designed to excel in competitive environments. ON TO THE FUN!

Tank: 
125g (72"x18x21)
Fluval fx5
Two 30" t8 bulbs
Livestock:
10 Archocentrus multispinosus
8 X. helleri rio otapa
1 lone male macmasteri (Lost the females, diden't have anywhere to put him)

Picture of tank: (I keep the water level low to encourage the water sprite to grow above water, it will look better once it grows up)


Pair 1 (male A)


Pair 2


A video of the pair fussing. You can see around the 40 second mark, the male of pair one crosses the line in the sand. Which causes a quick skirmish:


The setup is still young, so time will tell if I'll be able to pull off my vision for the tank. Ideally, I want a minimum of 4 breeding pairs.I still think I need to add a few more multispinosus. And once the swordtails mature up, I plan on raising fry until I get their numbers around 25-30. Feel free to ask any questions. Hope you enjoyed my bad video and pictures!

Aaron


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## Darkskies (Mar 17, 2012)

Amazing tank! Loved watching the video where the 2 pairs made those synchronized rushing movements as if to feign that they would attack each other while only just bluffing. It'll be interesting to see the dynamics once you start getting fry! You should keep us updated if you can especially once the tank has matured and you have all your swordtails too.

Have the rainbows always been that color for you? The ones at my LFS are distinctly golden but don't really have the intense coloration or solid black hues that your ones do. Is that their breeding coloration?


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

My multispinosa were much more golden as well, with blue hues in their finnage. There seems to be a good amount of variation with their coloration, not to mention they can change colors quite a bit as well (hence the name -- rainbow). I've seen quite a few with red eyes too, which looks especially cool!

I like the branchy, "reaching" driftwood and the addition of floating plants. It should look even better once it grows in more! I like the "little fish in a big tank" theme as well, as I feel you get the most out of their behavior that way.

Great looking setup Aaron, thanks for sharing! :thumb:


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Hey guys,

Both pairs you are seeing are in breeding dress. The little skirmish you see is due to both pairs spawning so close. If you look at the bottom of the picture labeled "pair 1" you will see fry! When not in breeding dress, the fish are golden, with blue hues like Cj mentions. There is also an orange race, that are orange instead of yellow. I did not like them as much as the yellow. When not spawning, the females swim around and the males hold mini territories and try to entice females to check it out.


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## FedEXguy (Feb 24, 2005)

Great looking tank and great looking fish. I look forward to when my guys are that size!


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Great setup! Love the scape and the rainbows. Please keep it updated.

Happy Thanksgiving!


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Both pairs are proving to be great parents, they are doing a great job at keeping the swordtails and other rainbows at bay. Also very prolific, their spawns are huge. I'm going to siphon off some of the fry on the next batch. I'm raising Apistogramma borelli, and Apistogramma panduro, hopefully by the next spawn the apisto fry will be large enough that I can mix the rainbows in with them and grow them out together.


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## Ichy (Oct 26, 2003)

Cool.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Ichy said:


> Cool.


What would be cool is some socolofi to add to the tank


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

If you come across some let me know! How large are the group of T. helleri you have in there? I'm guessing pretty small as I didn't see them in any of the pics or the vid..


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Ichy has the only T. socolofi I know of, but hes had bad luck with fry. I have 8 T. helleri, a few of them are still small. I have another 4 months or so before they mature enough to start dropping fry. But once they start, I'm going to be collecting fry like they are gold nuggets lol. A group of 30 or so is going to make a fantastic display.

The watersprite is starting to break the surface of the water. I love that stuff. In the past, once it broke the surface it began growing like mad. So hopefully in another month or two, I'll have full coverage across the tank.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

I've heard socolofi (as well as helleri) are prone to bloat and are relatively sensitive. Have you had any problems with them?

I've considered trying a mat of some sort of floating plant as well however I think my two Vieja as well as my H. pearsei would demolish it within a few days. Watersprite is cheap enough, maybe I'll give it a go. A little green in the tank is always nice. Worst case scenario, my big guys get a salad to munch on!


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Oops, I misread your post. I have X. helleri in the tank, the swordtail. Not T. helleri. So no idea on how sensitive T. helleri are.

I say give it a go if you can find it for cheap. I love the way it looks when it grows out of the water.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

Great post! Thanks for putting it up. I'm considering doing something similar in a 5' 112G I'm setting up and trying to learn as much about Rainbows before diving in.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Zimmy, they are worth it. I still believe a species tank is the only way to go, these guys get intimidated so easily.

Right now, I only have one pair guarding free swimmers. I can't figure out if pair B stole pair A's fry, our if they were simply eaten. I'm going to do some more pictures and video when I get 3 pairs spawning at once.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

> Oops, I misread your post. I have X. helleri in the tank, the swordtail. Not T. helleri. So no idea on how sensitive T. helleri are.
> 
> I say give it a go if you can find it for cheap. I love the way it looks when it grows out of the water.


Hah ah I misread your original post as well! It all makes a bit more sense though now. I was thinking you'd be relatively content with T. helleri in replacement of T. socolofi.. not to mention a group of 30!


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## Ichy (Oct 26, 2003)

Helleri group for the most part are not too bad. I did have bloat issues with mixteco blue and aureus. Helleri and socolofi are by far the least aggressive Thors I have had. 
Aaron. I have sovolofi wrigglers now. I plan to grow out a few groups. You are on the short list...maybe if I can make ACA this year you could snag some, Jon might be getting some too so if I dont get any to you he might have some in the future.
The helleri are getting ready to spawn too. should have eggs any day now


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Ichy said:


> Helleri group for the most part are not too bad. I did have bloat issues with mixteco blue and aureus. Helleri and socolofi are by far the least aggressive Thors I have had.
> Aaron. I have sovolofi wrigglers now. I plan to grow out a few groups. You are on the short list...maybe if I can make ACA this year you could snag some, Jon might be getting some too so if I dont get any to you he might have some in the future.
> The helleri are getting ready to spawn too. should have eggs any day now


That is good news! Even if I don't make it, I have a bud that can grab them for me. Keep me in touch please, I have wanted those guys for a long time :drooling:


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Pair B was doing great with their fry. But today, they totally left them to feed and the X. helleri decimated the fry school. The parents were so busy picking pellets off of the sand (I feed with a pipette), they never took notice. So the school went from 30ish down to 5! Interesting to see if they do better as they get older, I entirely expected the fry to be gone well before now since it was the pairs first spawn.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

Wow, surprised the X. helleri went for them. I guess they do eat their own fry as well so why not? When I had a school of Buenos Aires Tetras they would constantly bombard any fry in the tank. My V. argentea is a little fry hunter as well..


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

From what I have been told, the Rio Otapa location of X. helleri are efficient fry eaters. Who knows, but you can't blame them for snacking on those tasty little defenseless morsels of goodness opcorn: . Another thing, they are a large swordtail. The guy I got mine from said they can get as large as X. mayae!

The best thing about fish like rainbows, convicts, etc...is you know you won't have to wait more than 2-4 weeks for another spawn lol. Thats huge for me, the only species I'm willing to baby are Apistogramma. Anything else its "spawn or your gone!". :lol:


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Here is a picture of what I like the water sprite to do. Hard to capture in pictures, but in person the plants look really cool once they cover the top. The current from the filter naturally keeps them from completely covering the top, so I still have a little place to drop in food. Still has a LOT of growing to do, but in another month or two it should be about there.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

That looks great! I want to do floating plants on the tank I'm currently setting up.

What kind of lights do you have and do you have to fertilize at all?


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

The lights are just regular t12 fixtures. Nothing fancy, floating plants don't need near as much light from what I have seen. I actually find the water sprite does better with the t12s than it does with the t5s I run on a couple of other tanks. No ferts other than fish food. The only thing to watch out for is current, for me floaters never do well if they are getting moved around. Makes it a bit of a pain on large tanks since the filter output is so strong. I have my filter output aimed at the glass.

I do have some t8 fixtures as well, maybe I should test them and see how that does. Plants and lighting are really not my forte! The only plants I use are watersprite and javamoss. Recently I have been playing with cabomba, but its too soon to tell if it can take a beating.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

That should look great once it fills in ahud. I wish I could have a nice mat of something similar myself but I don't think that's possible after testing the waters (pun intended) with the guppy grass.

+1 to avoiding strong current with floating plants as well. I added a big glob of duckweed to a setup once and it was an absolute MESS! The filters blew it all over and it was constantly suspended in the water.. Lesson learned.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Outside temps went up to 70 here Friday, and dropped down to 40 by Sunday. The weather change must have put all of my fish in the mood,tons of flirting and cleaning spawning locations going on. Fish in other tanks are flirting too.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Have eggs again, Pulling some fry this time around!


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## FedEXguy (Feb 24, 2005)

Congrats! Depending on what my M/F ratio turns out to be, I may be in the market for some of your fry in a few months


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

Looks like many of us will have fry soon, must be something in the water!

Good luck with them ahud!


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

FedEXguy said:


> Congrats! Depending on what my M/F ratio turns out to be, I may be in the market for some of your fry in a few months


Sure :thumb:


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

CjCichlid said:


> Looks like many of us will have fry soon, must be something in the water!
> 
> Good luck with them ahud!


Lol, with Cryptoheros and Archocentrus multispinosus all you need in the water is a male and female


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

Hah, that's the truth. I did a bigger than usual water change today and my one other female was flirting with multiple males... sluts. :lol: :fish:


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I tried to combine the rainbow fry with some older Apistogramma fry and the apistos killed them...Ughh, I need more fry tanks. I'll probably pull a pair out of the 125g eventually and just let them raise a brood in one of my smaller tanks.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

I'm really surprised a good number of them don't survive in your 125gal being the only cichlids and all. Maybe add more cover in the form of leaves, twigs, or plants?

When my pair spawned in my community the fry would last at least a week and that was with other more aggressive cichlids, as well as BA tetras!


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Free swimmers made it around a week and a half last time. This go around they are getting picked off quicker. The fish are still young parents, they leave the fry every now and then to snack on some pellets and that's when the losses happen.

Right now, I'm more worried about raising up Apistogramma, but once I have a batch of those I can focus on the rainbows. I don't have the tank space to raise everything I would like to raise lol.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I have another pair tending eggs. Best tank every lol. Once I get a spare ten gallon open, I'll just catch a pair and move them to it. Since they breed so often, I am not too worried about getting a batch going.

My first love will always be Apistogramma. So I have a difficult time letting a batch of those go to waste!


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

So I'm rethinking things. I keep getting tempted back to shell dwellers, but I don't want to give up any of my small tanks. The rainbows are too cool to let go, but I'm really considering putting a pair of brevis in the tank with them. Why does mixing fish feel so taboo lol? I have seen a few pictures of Paul V. Loiselle's tanks with fish from different continents. I doubt the brevis would know any better, beyond chasing fish from their shells they don't do much else. Maybe I'm rationalizing lol. People mix tetras with everything!

Finding it hard to remain a purist.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Never know till you try!

Off topic on this thread, but what is your pH, gH and kH for your apisto setups. With your success in breeding them, I'm just curious. Thanks.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Hey Iggy,

My tapwater is fairly soft with PH of 6.8, gKH-4 gGH-4. I only mess with the water for the black-water species, which I usually avoid. Apistogramma are fairly easy provided you meet their basic needs. I know that sounds like basic advice, but it really rings true for Apistogramma. If you don't have liquid rock, there are a lot of Apistos that will spawn in tap water.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

ahud said:


> Hey Iggy,
> 
> My tapwater is fairly soft with PH of 6.8, gKH-4 gGH-4. I only mess with the water for the black-water species, which I usually avoid. Apistogramma are fairly easy provided you meet their basic needs. I know that sounds like basic advice, but it really rings true for Apistogramma. If you don't have liquid rock, there are a lot of Apistos that will spawn in tap water.


Thank you sir.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Update:

The tank is still doing awesome. I have been so busy with fry tanks, the big 125g has been neglected. The rainbows have responded by...spawning nonstop 

In all seriousness A. multispinosus is such a great fish. I have two pairs guarding fry at the moment. I thought I was going to have three pair at once, but the third male was unable to secure a spawning site. I need to add a few more places to choose to see if I can get three pairs going at once. The interaction between pairs is such a blast to watch, and not a day goes by that I don't watch the tank awhile. I'm really curious how things will change once the fish reach full size, I'm guessing there will be more aggression. One thing I like is that the aggression is self-limiting somewhat. The fry only make it free swimming for a week before they are eaten, so the parents are not in the hyper aggressive free swimming mode for long. The swordtails do a great job of picking off fry. All in all, I am very content with the tank.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

Glad to hear everything is still going well ahud. I'm waiting on some wigglers to go free swimming myself.

I don't think three mature pairs of Rainbows is at all unreasonable in a 6ft tank..


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Sounds like an awesome tank. Good luck on tripling up on spawns.


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

I need to find me some of these...


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I wish you were close. I'm letting about 400-600 fry get eaten every 2-3 weeks. I really think these guys have convicts beat as far as how often they spawn.

I'm doing experiments on them to see if I can keep them from "begging" or I guess waiting on feed is more of an appropriate term. I really hate begging fish, because you have to sit still for 15 minutes for them to go back to normal behavior. My first trick is going to be to be to tap on the canopy before and during feeding. Hopefully with enough times standing in front of the tank without feeding, the fish will start to associate the tapping with food, versus seeing me.

If that does not work, I'm going to place a towel or something else to block part of the tank. I can then feed from the side they can't see, and hopefully break the association. I REALLY hate begging.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

Hah, I hear yah on the begging. My guys aren't too bad about it but they do initially beg a bit when they see me. It's when they see the blue lid of the NLS container when they really go nuts.


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## FedEXguy (Feb 24, 2005)

Same for me, Cj. They'll beg if I stand real close to the tank, but stop if I sit down or back away. I always shake the NLS jar in front of the tank before I feed, and that's when they'll beg incessantly and keep begging if I walk away.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Sadly the tank is going to be getting different inhabitants. I got a new job, and plan on making some big life changes soon. I don't have room in my house to dedicate a whole room to fish. So I'm taking down all of my tanks except the 125g and stocking it with Apistogramma. Rainbows were a blast, but I can't be without Apistogramma. I'm going to do a Riparium and keep about 10" of water in the tank. Look for a build thread in the SA forum if your interested!

Aaron


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Well good luck with everything. Thanks for the info along the way. The new tank sounds pretty sweet. Something my brother would be very interested in.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

New setup sounds interesting! Looking forward to seeing some pics!

Good luck with the "life changes" as well! :thumb:


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Much time has passed, but I am resurrecting my 125g A. multispinosus tank. For a while, I did not see anything but the orange race and had trouble finding the yellows that I am fond of. In a perfect world, I would have ordered some wild caught fish, but I do not have the budget. I found some yellow A. multispinosus at a LFS a couple of months ago. I have been growing them out in an outdoor 300g stock tank. Luckily, I have fry! So far I have pulled 6 fry from the pond, but plan to gather some more once they get a little more size. The small fry are hard to catch and I don't like handling them so much at such a small size.

Lots of work still to do! I have been planning on buying a camera soon for the past 3 years. Interest and budget never seem to align. Hopefully that finally happens and I can post some great pictures and videos as the tank develops. My wedding is in 5 weeks, and I have been dropping hints to my friends that cash is king! So far, my fiance seems to be the one racking up!


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Rough going for me in the fish world. The little plastic grid on my breeder box fell off, resulting in all of my rainbow fry flowing into the main tank and being eaten. Thankfully, I had 8 fry still left in the pond. I'm growing those and looking for more adults.

Additionally, I FINALLY broke down and bought some fish that my fiance likes...neon tetras. We purchased 70 and they have been a nightmare, I'm loosing 3-4 a day. Tank parameters are great. Seems like neons are simply fragile fish. Today was the first day I have had no losses. Time will tell if the spree of death is over. Any tips on getting these guys healthy?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

The camera made me laugh!

Looking forward to the Rainbow tank again, but sorry to hear about the recent problems. Neons mass produced and heavily pumped up with antibiotics? Could be the issue...

Getting nervous yet?


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I'm actually looking forward to the wedding! I'm not sure if that is because wedding planning is torture or if I am ready to get married? I'm kidding of course  But really, the showers are all bride and no groom. What is up with that?!

Yeah I think neons are just fragile due to the reasons you stated. I have always stuck with the more robust species (black skirts, etc) and never had issues. I have been two days without deaths, so maybe its over. I did notice a couple with ich, so the temperature is ramped up to 90 to take care of it. Hopefully its not some sort of super ich. I'm scared to increase salinity because I read neons are sensitive to changes in conductivity.

I am cheating a little. I'm going to keep Nannacara anomala alongside the rainbows. I don't typically like mixing fish from totally different areas, but the two species really don't seem to bother each other.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Weddings are always fun! And I don't get the shower thing either. Just glad I didn't have to attend my wife's. Showed up at the end to load up the gifts.

Good luck with the Neons moving forward. A huge school in a 6' tank would look pretty sweet.


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