# Flakes better than pellets for bloat prevention?



## schak (Apr 27, 2012)

I realize there are many factors involved with the cause of bloat (stress, water quality, food etc..). One factor that I'm curious about is the type of food, pellets vs flakes specifically for my mixed-male Malawi tank. I've read that cichlids tends to have "sensitive" intestinal track and the type, amount and quality of food that they eat can influence bloat.

I think we've all seen pellets soaked in water for a period of time expand, some more then others. In that same line of thinking, I would think pellet expansion would also happen inside the fish's intestinal track. I read somewhere that Cichlids intestinal track is about 4x its body length, so the pellets would be inside the fish long enough to expand&#8230; which would not be good. Floating pellets would be even worst if what I'm saying is true and flakes would be better.

There are other pros and cons between pellets and flakes, but the specifically talking about food expansion influencing bloat, would it be better to avoid pellets and feed strictly flakes?

I realized I may be sweating the small stuff and many of you have raised cichlids for many years on pellets and don't have any bloat related issues. I'm new to raising cichlids and in my reading about bloat, it worries me. Invested good $ on the fish and don't want to lose them to bloat, so I'm trying to practice the best cichlid-keeping as I could to prevent it.

Thanks for reading


----------



## Dawg2012 (May 10, 2012)

Ah, good question.

I use both equally and have never had a problem. I do tend to use pellets more for the larger fish as it seems like it would take a lot of flakes to fill them up - to the point it may cloud the water or simply become too inefficient.

It may come down to protein content as I believe it is the protein that actually gives them the problems. Stress, water conditions etc... play a role in that it becomes easier for the root issue to become a real problem.

It will be interesting to hear others opinions.


----------



## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

It's possible depending on the brand of food. Anything freeze-dried I would steer well clear of. 
As long as you stick to high quality pellets, such as New Life Spectrum, you won't have to worry about expansion to the degree that it will affect the fish's digestion.


NLS Website said:


> Another common mistake by some hobbyists is to pre-soak their pellets, in the misguided belief that this will aid in digestion and prevent swelling of the pellets inside the fishes gut. This is nothing more than an urban myth created by those that simply do not understand the amount of enzymes and gastric acids that are released by most fish when they consume food. Those hard pellets turn into soft mush in a very short period of time! If a pellet food causes gastrointestinal issues in a fish, it will usually be due to the use of poorly digestible ingredients, such as excessive amounts of grains and grain by-products, not from the food swelling up inside the fish's stomach. Most importantly, when you pre-soak pellet food, you are allowing nutrients and water-soluble vitamins and minerals to leach out into the water.


----------



## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

> I think we've all seen pellets soaked in water for a period of time expand, some more then others. In that same line of thinking, I would think pellet expansion would also happen inside the fish's intestinal track. I read somewhere that Cichlids intestinal track is about 4x its body length, so the pellets would be inside the fish long enough to expand&#8230; which would not be good. Floating pellets would be even worst if what I'm saying is true and flakes would be better.


--This is exactly why I don't use floating pellets regularly. And when I do, I pre-soak them for a few minutes before feeding them.


----------



## Dawg2012 (May 10, 2012)

I use floating pellets for my larger mbuna. They all grab them immediately due to competition - then let them soften in their mouths before swallowing as much as they can (after they've expanded lol). The result is a lot of 'food stuff' left floating around in the tank, which is readily consumed by the smaller fish.


----------



## schak (Apr 27, 2012)

GTZ said:


> It's possible depending on the brand of food. Anything freeze-dried I would steer well clear of.
> As long as you stick to high quality pellets, such as New Life Spectrum, you won't have to worry about expansion to the degree that it will affect the fish's digestion.


I'm actually feeding my fish NLS Spectrum 1mm pellets and NLS Optimum Flakes w/ garlic, once a day.. trying not to overfeed. I'm using flakes because I have some juvies that can't compete with the bigger fish fast enough to get the pellets. The flakes floats around a bit and gives the youngling once a chance.



NLS Website said:


> Another common mistake by some hobbyists is to pre-soak their pellets, in the misguided belief that this will aid in digestion and prevent swelling of the pellets inside the fishes gut. This is nothing more than an urban myth created by those that simply do not understand the amount of enzymes and gastric acids that are released by most fish when they consume food. Those hard pellets turn into soft mush in a very short period of time! If a pellet food causes gastrointestinal issues in a fish, it will usually be due to the use of poorly digestible ingredients, such as excessive amounts of grains and grain by-products, not from the food swelling up inside the fish's stomach. Most importantly, when you pre-soak pellet food, you are allowing nutrients and water-soluble vitamins and minerals to leach out into the water.


Thanks for the snipit from the NLS site.

Obviously NLS is the expert here &#8230; but cichlids intestinal tracks seem to be more sensitive than other types of fish. Generalizing that "the amount of enzymes and gastric acids that are released by most fish" .. "will turn the hard pellets info soft mush in a very short period of time" doesn't necessary apply to cichlids to me. I think Malawi cichlids seem to be the most vulnerable to bloat then other fish . .. enough to coin the term "Malawi Bloat" .. and may not fit in the "most fish" category that NLS is referring to.

There just seems to be a lot of bloat case relating to Malawi Cichlids and I'm just trying to understand better. Maybe one more factor for the cause of bloat can be removed possibly by changing the food type?


----------



## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Bloat is not a condition where a fish has eaten more than it's stomach and intestines can handle, leading to a breaking of the stomach or intestines. Not that overfeeding a food that expands isn't dangerous, but it isn't "bloat".


----------



## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

schak said:


> I think we've all seen pellets soaked in water for a period of time expand, some more then others. In that same line of thinking, I would think pellet expansion would also happen inside the fish's intestinal track.





GTZ said:


> It's possible depending on the brand of food. Anything freeze-dried I would steer well clear of.
> As long as you stick to high quality pellets, such as New Life Spectrum, you won't have to worry about expansion to the degree that it will affect the fish's digestion.


I should have specified which part of your post I was referring to. It is possible for some foods to expand once eaten, but this doesn't cause 'Malawi Bloat' which is caused by an overabundance of flagellates, which in turn is stress related. What it might do however, is cause an intestinal obstruction resulting in a bloated looking fish.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Also the danger of a food expanding when wet used to lead to the recommendation that you first soak the food before feeding it. This is not necessary with today's foods made of high quality ingredients.


----------



## littleolme (Nov 1, 2011)

Here's my $0.02 from my personal experience. I feed strictly NLS 1mm cichlid pellets to my acei, rusties, yellow labs, borleyi, saulosi, brevis and multi adults. My water conditions are good except for nitrates which I constantly battle to stay in control of (nitrates right from the tap). My fish are breeding constantly and are not showing any real signs of abnormal stress. I am now dealing with my second case of bloat with my adult acei (my largest female and dominate male) and the only thing I can account it to is the food. The 2 that have caught bloat are the biggest and tend to "pig out" the most at meal time, try as I may to spread it around for everyone.

I actually brought this up at my local club tonight because of what we're experiencing with our acei and one of the long time breeders have experienced the same issue with NLS and certains breeds only, while other species within the same tank were fine. What I'm going to take from this is that I'm going to start feeding something more spirulina based to the mbuna tank with the acei with perhaps a bit of NLS 1mm pellets.


----------



## brinkles (Jan 30, 2011)

I switched from NLS to spirulina pellets with color enhancers, and noticed reduced nitrates but less breeding. I've only lost 1-2 fish to bloat, and at least one was definitely due to stress caused by poor stocking. I'm going to start alternating between those two foods, we'll see what happens. Flakes are messy, I give NLS grow to the little ones instead.


----------



## little seabird (Oct 14, 2009)

I resently tried feeding Hikari Cichlid Staple Mini pellets for my malawi tank. Big mistake. I lost all my Otopharynx lithobates, 3 of my yellow labs (and one was my favorite male  ) and one Placidochromis electra.. So i ordered NLS and that is what i will be feeding them from now on.


----------



## SavageHunter (Dec 9, 2011)

I've kept fish for many years (30+), but only started keeping African cichlids the last 6 months or so. I've used pellet food over the years for other fish like Oscars without any problems what so ever. So when I started keeping Africans, it seemed only natural for my local fish store to recommend a pellet food to feed them. Before feeding time, my fish would be calmly swimming around the tank going about their business of nibbling on the rocks and plants. But after feeding them the pellet food, some of them would start displaying noticeable distress by swimming nervously back and forth and up and down the tank. This display of distress would continue for about an hour after every feeding. I also noticed that their poo was always very thin, almost thread like.

I knew this couldn't be normal behavior, so I started trying different types of food until I finally ended up with a vegetarian flake food which I've now been feeding for several months. Their feeding behavior has since greatly improved. They no longer show any signs of distress after feeding, and their poo is of normal size and frequency. They've also recently started breading which I take as another sign of good health.


----------



## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Quote "Also the danger of a food expanding when wet used to lead to the recommendation that you first soak the food before feeding it. This is not necessary with today's foods made of high quality ingredients."

--Definitely not true. I often keep Giant Danios as dithers for my CA cichlids. As anyone who keeps them can verify, they are fast and will eat large pellets. When I used to feed floating pellets without pre-soaking them, I'd wake up to dead danios quite often. Also, I'd have the occasional disease problem with cichlids. Once I started pre-soaking them, no more dead danios, and rarely any disease problems. I can't prove it's the pellets expanding, but there was quite a difference when I started pre-soaking them. Now, I try to use exclusively sinking pellets...but on the rare occasions that I do use floating pellets, I definitely pre-soak them first. It just is to risky not to.


----------



## countryboy814 (Feb 19, 2012)

GTZ said:


> schak said:
> 
> 
> > I think we've all seen pellets soaked in water for a period of time expand, some more then others. In that same line of thinking, I would think pellet expansion would also happen inside the fish's intestinal track.
> ...


Intestinal blockage causing stress causing immune system weakening causing over abundant flagellates.


----------



## schak (Apr 27, 2012)

Very insightful everyone &#8230; thanks for sharing.

I've been keeping other freshwater aquarium off-and-on for 20+ years, about 6 months ago I decided to switch to Malawis. My 2 yrs old daughter saw a beautiful Yellow Lab and wanted a few and I (Daddy) caved in an decided to change stock.. okay it wasn't all her doing, I've always like the colors and variety from Malawi.

All those years I've been keeping fish though I've never really had any major issue, but Malawi bloat really worries me. I believe I have a fish that is showing early signs of bloat and is being treated in a hospital tank right now. I will have to post a different topic on that though.

As countyboy814 listed above .. The early stage of bloat is intestinal blockage. I'm trying to avoid or control that early stage issue "better". While there are many unknown factors for cause of bloat, to me the food they eat is a huge part. Maybe the typical practice of using food in the form of pellets from reputable manufacturers is "good enough". I want to know if there is a "better" practice.

Will have to try some spirulina and veggie flakes that have been mentioned and see how they work.


----------



## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

The causes of bloat are believed to be stress. That can come from food, but it can also come from aggression, water parameters, other illnesses, or discomfort in their setting.


----------



## countryboy814 (Feb 19, 2012)

Fogelhund said:


> The causes of bloat are believed to be stress. That can come from food, but it can also come from aggression, water parameters, other illnesses, or discomfort in their setting.


The OP was talking about food.


----------



## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

countryboy814 said:


> Fogelhund said:
> 
> 
> > The causes of bloat are believed to be stress. That can come from food, but it can also come from aggression, water parameters, other illnesses, or discomfort in their setting.
> ...


Yes, but to be clear, improper diet isn't the only precursor to bloat. Also, a digestive system blockage may or may not lead to an increase in flagellates.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Since I only feed NLS, I can't verify whether a different food could give them bloat. But IME the factor that is huge is aggression and the best bloat prevention is a peaceful tank.


----------



## countryboy814 (Feb 19, 2012)

GTZ said:


> countryboy814 said:
> 
> 
> > Fogelhund said:
> ...


No but it may lead to a compromised immune system which will increase flagellates in the intestinal tract.


----------



## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

countryboy814 said:


> GTZ said:
> 
> 
> > a digestive system blockage may or may not lead to an increase in flagellates.
> ...


lol, I think there's an echo in here. :wink:


----------



## iwade4fish (Jan 5, 2009)

The higher the spirulina percentage, the better. Too much high-protein food, IMO, tends to block the long and narrow digestive tract of our fish. As for the pre-soaking, I'm also guessing the scientists at those companies have researched that thoroughly, moot point.

at least we all agree on the flagellates :lol:


----------



## Michael_M (May 31, 2012)

schak said:


> The early stage of bloat is intestinal blockage. I'm trying to avoid or control that early stage issue "better". While there are many unknown factors for cause of bloat, to me the food they eat is a huge part.


Pellets can be easier to overfeed with, other than that I don't think it matters provided your using a good quality food with a appropriate amount of protein for your fish. You could try feeding them blanched peas occasionally, as they clear the bowels out pretty well. If your worried about it though, stick to a lower protein food, they will grow a little slower but alot of Mbuna are herbivores anyway and In my experience the omnivores aren't adversely affected at all.


----------



## memejan2012 (Apr 12, 2012)

I'm glad somebody mentions veggies, because I've been doing this for short time, either blanched peas,(skins removed) squash and lettuce for BN plecos..all seem to eat this..


----------



## bullzi (Mar 20, 2012)

Hi guyz,

I am totally new to cichlids, I have got 6 blue dolphins and I intend to feed them NLS cichlid formula. All the fish are between 3-4 inches in size. How often and how much should be fed to the fish to prevent possible bloat?

After reading this thread, I am really really confused about the diet requirement for my fish.


----------



## Dawg2012 (May 10, 2012)

I don't feed any more than they will consume in less than a minute. If the food is gone in 10 seconds I give them a little more. My larger cichlids eat once a day, smaller ones twice a day and fry several times a day.

It has been suggested that abstaining from feeding them one or two days a week can help compensate for any overfeeding as well as help to keep their intestinal tract clean.


----------



## bullzi (Mar 20, 2012)

I have ordered for NLS fish food. But tell me, how many pellets should be fed to 6 fish of 3-4 inches?


----------



## countryboy814 (Feb 19, 2012)

bullzi said:


> I have ordered for NLS fish food. But tell me, how many pellets should be fed to 6 fish of 3-4 inches?


First seperate each fish. Then give 2 pellets each. Remove fish from tank for 1/2 hour so they do not cramp up. Then reunite them until next feeding.


----------



## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

bullzi said:


> I have ordered for NLS fish food. But tell me, how many pellets should be fed to 6 fish of 3-4 inches?


Depends on which NLS food you have and perhaps which species fish but as a general rule, you feed what the fish will consume in 30-60 seconds.


----------



## bullzi (Mar 20, 2012)

I have ordered NLS cichlid formula. I do not have a spare tank now so separating fish is not possible as for now. Should I soak the pellets is water first?


----------



## countryboy814 (Feb 19, 2012)

Just kidding pal. Really, start with a little food and increase or decrease until all food is consumed within a min. As far as soaking goes....I don't soak the pellets and haven't had any problems. Others do presoak.


----------

