# Mbuna Stocklist



## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

So im getting a 55 gallon or 75 gallon fishtank, im just gonn play it safe and stock for a 55g.
I just need some feedback of my current stocklist which i want to be a bachelor tank.

Stock List (all males)
Metriaclima lombardoi "Kenyi" - Small Juvenile:2
Melanochromis auratus - Small:2
Melanochromis johanni - Small:2 
Metriaclima estherae "Cherry Red Zebra":2
Melanochromis joanjohnsonae - Small Juvenile:2
Aulonocara jacobfreibergi "Eureka Red" - Juvenile:1
Agamyxis pectinifrons "Spotted Raphael Catfish":1

Feedback and additions please


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

Those are some bad attitude fish you have there. This will be a challenge.

If you're trying all male, plan on only keeping one of each species, and only one of each colour/pattern. i.e. one wouldn't stock johanni and cyaneorhabdos as they look too similar. Having looked at your list again, that doesn't seem to be an issue.

And I'll guess you're getting two of each to increase your chances of getting a male?

I've no experience with Aulonocara, but I wouldn't think they'd do well in a tank full of the meanest mbuna out there.

Here's a tale from an experienced keeper (and Mod) who had an all male mbuna: http://www.african-cichlid.com/75_Gallon.htm

Make sure you have a spare cycled tank!

kevin


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

i simply did 2 of each species because somebody on another forum had said to do one or two of each species for a bachelor tank. Also if you lookup up the fish they are all dimorphic, which is why i picked them, so my life is easier when i go to buy them. As of now what fish do you think i should remove or decrease the number of?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

One male per species works better in an all male tank...the paired males are likely to fight.


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

Fu3l said:


> i simply did 2 of each species because somebody on another forum had said to do one or two of each species for a bachelor tank.


This piece of advice is *most definitely* wrong. Males of the same species will battle each other for dominance in an aquarium. And with most of these species, it will be a battle to the death.

Metriaclima lombardoi "Kenyi"
While adult males are a nice orange, male and female juveniles are light blue with bars.
Melanochromis auratus
Same deal here. Male and female juveniles are yellow with black and white stripes. The male turn black with yellow and white stripes as they age.
Melanochromis johanni
And here too, I'm afraid. All juveniles are yellow. The males turn blue with light blue stripes.
Metriaclima estherae "Cherry Red Zebra"
There are lots of colour combinations for this species depending on its collection point. If you get one that's light blue you can be fairly certain it's male, but the most popular colour morph is the "red x red," in which both males and females are orangy-red.
Melanochromis joanjohnsonae
I have to admit that I don't know what these juveniles look like; whether they are pearl-coloured as the females or pale blue (similar to some Metriaclima estherae!) like the males.

Of course, buying sexed (whether by venting or age) fish cuts out the confusion. But older fish are harder to mix. Especially with these species.

Do you have these fish already?

kevin


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

no i dont. Also here is my new stocklist which pretty much sucks due to the fact of cost restrictions. It is also not as well thought through but please comment.(i did cut out the catfish)

Metriaclima lombardoi "Kenyi" - Small Juvenile:1 
Melanochromis auratus - Small:1 
Melanochromis johanni - Small:1 
Metriaclima estherae "Cherry Red Zebra":1 
Melanochromis joanjohnsonae - Small Juvenile:1 
Aulonocara jacobfreibergi "Eureka Red" - Juvenile:1 
Aulonocara stuartgranti "Usisya" - Small Juvenile:1 
Chilotilapia rhoadesii - Juvenile:1 
Copadichromis borleyi "Gold Fin":1 
Copadichromis mloto "Ivory Head" - Juvenile:1
Metriaclima pyrsonotos "Red Top Zebra":1


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## MiteyWitey (Oct 30, 2009)

IMO the Kenyi and Auratus will tear up those peacocks....


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

Fu3l said:


> no i dont. Also here is my new stocklist which pretty much sucks due to the fact of cost restrictions. It is also not as well thought through but please comment.(i did cut out the catfish)
> 
> Metriaclima lombardoi "Kenyi" - Small Juvenile:1
> Melanochromis auratus - Small:1
> ...


Are you set on having an all male tank? Most all male tanks are Haps or Peacocks because the females of those cichlids are...boring and silver or boring and brown.

Not so with many mbuna.

If you had some favourite species from that list it would be much easier on you to have three groups of 1m/4f (although, to beat a dead horse, kenyi and auratus usually require 1m/7f). The fish will look every bit as pretty, their behaviours will be more interesting, and they'll stand a much better chance of survival.

kevin


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

well i orgiginaly wanted to do an all johannii tank but what i really enjoyed about them was the males, and it would cause too many problems seemingly to have 2 or 3 males and a suitable amount of females. and i dont have the money to deal with subdominant males to replace them with real females


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

What about a species tank of Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos? Males _and _females are two-colour blue striped.

kevin


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

while that is a ingenious solution does that not make sexing difficult? which is why i chose dimorphic, also then i would want to get a second species for color, which brings up agression. See i also want dimorphic so you can have 1 species and 2 colors


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If you are doing all male, dimorphic won't help you.

If cost is a factor you may want to avoid all male because you often have a fish that turns out to be female and/or a male that just does not do well in the tank. :thumb:


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

why wont dimorphic fish help me for all male? then i dont have to sex them when i goto buy them,which i dont know howto do.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Oh, I thought you wanted dimorphic in the tank to enjoy one species, two colors. :lol:

Well, usually you buy juveniles and even dimorphic fish are the same color as juveniles. The only sure way to get correct sexes is to buy adults which can be more expensive.

It's cost effective to buy a couple extra juveniles and plan to "sell" them back to the LFS when they mature and turn out to be extras of the unwanted gender.

So if you are continuing with all-male, haps and peacocks are more likely to be successful than mbuna. Mixing mbuna and haps/peacocks has a high risk of failure unless you stick to very peaceful species like labs and maybe acei or rusties.


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

i the dimorphic 2 for 1 deal is only if i do a normal tank. If you could please repost my stocklist with the fish that wouldnt work than that would be allot easier for me. Also how do you "vent" fish?

EDIT: also the reason their are peacocks and the sort is because im trying to order off of a vendor website based about 1 1/2 hours from me. But if anybody knows of a site with more cichlids than it may make my life easier so i can pick all mbuna. sorry if this doesnt make sense im just tired from alot of research over a long time


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

i did a google search and found another vendor which is more expensive but has a larger selection, all the following fish are from their site and they are all males.

Premium (2" - 3") - Bumble Bee(Pseudotropheus Crabro)
Premium (2") - Afra Mara Lion(Cynotilapia afra)
Premium (2" - 3") - Chipokae(Melanochromis chipokae)
Small (1"- 2") - White Top Afra(Cynotilapia sp. "hara")
Premium (2" - 3") - Red Zebra(Metriaclima estherae)
Premium (2" - 3") - Red Top Zebra(Metriaclima emmiltos)
Premium (2" - 3") - Red Top Trewavasae(Labeotropheus trewavasae)
Premium (2" - 3") - Red Face Mac(Tropheops sp. "Red Cheek")
Small (1" - 1Â½") - Polit(Pseudotropheus sp. Polit)
Premium (2" - 3") - Orange Johanni(Melanochromis Johanni "Gome")
Premium (2" - 3") - Maingano(Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos) 
Small (1" - 1Â½") - Flavus(Pseudotropheus flavus)

Does premium and small mean how big they will grow to be or how big they are when i get them?


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

Research can be overwhelming, especially when it's so abstract.

If you make your location more specific than "United States," other posters can inform you of Local Fish Stores (LFS) that may be close to you.

kevin


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

Fu3l said:


> i did a google search and found another vendor, which is more expensive but has a larger selection, all the following fish are from their site and they are all males.
> 
> Does premium and small mean how big they will grow to be or how big they are when i get them?


I'll get back to you later this evening if no one answers this question.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

premium from lfd means a 2-3" fish, because that's the size when they tend to be able to be introduced into established tanks and when they start to show color, this makes the fish sexable, and a little more expensive, but you tend to know what you're getting, this is not a universal thing, not everyone does it this way


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i'm confused, do you want an all male tank or not? if you want all male i'd say stay away from most mbuna

whichever you do i'd say stay away from 
Bumble Bee(Pseudotropheus Crabro), kenyi, or auratus in a 55 gallon, just my opinion

if you want mbuna a 3 species multiple gender setup is the way to go

if you want all male, i can give you a list that i had in my 55 for a while, that i specifically chose for as high of a chance for success as i could


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

cjacob316 said:


> if you want mbuna a 3 species multiple gender setup is the way to go


+1 on that. :thumb:


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

cjacob316 said:


> i'm confused, do you want an all male tank or not? if you want all male i'd say stay away from most mbuna
> 
> whichever you do i'd say stay away from
> Bumble Bee(Pseudotropheus Crabro), kenyi, or auratus in a 55 gallon, just my opinion
> ...


i do want a all male tank. i woulb be happy to get your list and also how exactly do you go about the 3 species multiple gender setup? how would you do the three species setup for melanochromis johanni,Metriaclima lombardoi , and Melanochromis auratus?


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

Here are some multiple species (both sexes) Malawi set ups:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/c ... er_55g.php


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

the cookie cutters give some good choices for mbuna set-ups, but that's soemthing different from all male

my stock list in my 55 was
1 Aulonocara Baenschi (Benga Peacock) 
1 Aulonocara Stuartgranti (Ngara) Flametail Peacock 
1 Aulonocara (Rubescens) Ruby Red Peacock 
1 Labidochromis Caeruleus (Yellow Lab) 
1 Placidochromis Electra 
1 Aulonocara maylandi (Sulfur Head Peacock) 
1 Aulonocara stuartgranti (Chiloelo) Red Shoulder 
1 Copadichromis trewavasae (Mloto Likoma)

each of these are 6" or less, generally peaceful, and no two look alike, this tends to ensure a more peaceful tank

you can also add

Otopharynx lithobates 
Lethrinops sp. "Red Cap" 
you can also try a rusty and see how it works


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

wouldnt that be a hap tank, not a mbuna tank?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

that's an all male tank

i don't know if you've missed it or not, but i know at least two people have said it, all male mbuna is generally not a good idea, i don't know of many who have done it, too much agression


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'm editing posts to remove vendor names, thanks!

I know it would save shipping, but it may be unrealistic to try to get all your fish from one vendor in one shipment. Unless you are willing to make your stocklist from their available stock without regard to the fish you really want.

And all-male mbuna stocking is very challenging...since mbuna are so aggressive. All-male peacock would be much more do-able for someone who has never done all-male before.

If you are interested in harem groups, choose your favorite mbuna (pick one) and we can suggest two other species to go with your favorite. Avoid auratus, crabro, kenyi.


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

could i do a 2 species tank with metriaclima lombardoi and melanochromis johanni? would you use a 1:4 male to female ratio for that?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

not in a 55, but *DJRansome* is better suited for mbuna questions


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

of the fish you've listed i would say
1m-3f Red Zebra(Metriaclima estherae)
1m-3f White Top Afra(Cynotilapia sp. "hara") 
and maybe take a look at Maingano or saulosi


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You would want a 75G minimum for johanni and kenyi. And a ratio of 1m:7f would give you higher odds of success.


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

if i did a 75g could i do the it with a 1:5 ratio?


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

Fu3l said:


> could i do a 2 species tank with metriaclima lombardoi and melanochromis johanni? would you use a 1:4 male to female ratio for that?


I'd be reluctant to even try kenyi in a 55. In a 75, I'd try 1m/7f.
Here's some very short reading if you haven't come across it yet:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... php?id=798
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/m_lombardoi.php

Johanni. Again, you need to do 1m/7f for any chance of success:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... php?id=760
Again, Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos is much less aggressive than Melanochromis johanni, but very similar in appearance. Johanni have yellow females.

Before entering into something like this, it would be best to scout out a LFS that will take kenyi or johanni males from you for cash, store credit, or just to relieve the headache!

kevin

P.S. it's good to keep asking these questions. Better to make mistakes on paper than in your tank!


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

so if i did Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos would i do 2 other species or 1 and with what ratio for each?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

cjacob316 said:


> of the fish you've listed i would say
> 1m-3f Red Zebra(Metriaclima estherae)
> 1m-3f White Top Afra(Cynotilapia sp. "hara")
> and maybe take a look at Maingano or saulosi


i don't know if anyone caught this, i kind of snuck it in at the bottom of the second page a fraction of a second before dj's post started the third page

i think this would give you some good color variations and a nice looking tank


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'm not sure whether we are talking 55G or 75G. If we are back to a 55G, then 3 species and maingano can be one of them with 1m:4f.


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

lol i just went back and read the pages and there was like 5 posts i missed or were edited


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i was still talking about a 55


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

DJRansome said:


> If you are interested in harem groups, choose your favorite mbuna (pick one) and we can suggest two other species to go with your favorite. Avoid auratus, crabro, kenyi.


then i would say Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos since johanni probably wont work unless i get a 75g

edit: an i am talking about a 55g


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i still say
Red Zebra(Metriaclima estherae) 
White Top Afra(Cynotilapia sp. "hara")

it will give you a good variation in color


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

How about metriaclima estherae 1m:4f and pseudotropheus socolofi 1m:4f with the maingano?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

DJRansome said:


> How about metriaclima estherae 1m:4f and pseudotropheus socolofi 1m:4f with the maingano?


this would give you about the same color combos, and all different looking fish, dark blue, orange, and ice blue


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

what is the name of the maingano, i have no idea what it is right now

also does anyone know any online stores that sell estherae that have blue males?


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

...and just to keep things confusing, I'll throw in Iodotropheus sprengerae.

Pictures don't do them justice.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

Fu3l said:


> what is the name of the maingano, i have no idea what it is right now


Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos it's the common name


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yes the cynotilapia sp. hara can sub for the socolofi. I've had both and not sure which is my favorite.

You could also sub yellow labs for the red zebras.


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

well know that i know what it is that list sounds pretty reasonable, would the maingano be 1:4 also? makin git 15 fish total


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

DJRansome said:


> Yes the cynotilapia sp. hara can sub for the socolofi. I've had both and not sure which is my favorite.
> 
> You could also sub yellow labs for the red zebras.


true about the labs, the only reason i didn't list them was because he didn't have them on his lists, so i tried to stick with what i figured he already decided he liked, but i like labs over zebras


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

Fu3l said:


> well know that i know what it is that list sounds pretty reasonable, would the maingano be 1:4 also? makin git 15 fish total


correct


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## steelers fan (Jun 26, 2009)

what kinda tank are you going for here.

1. all male(1 of each species)
2. breeding (1male/4-6 females)


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## steelers fan (Jun 26, 2009)

it seems from your previous posts you are trying to get 1 male and 1 female to pair of each species is this correct or no?


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## steelers fan (Jun 26, 2009)

disregard my prvious two posts...i think the OP is straightened out...sorry


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

alright so the list is
maingano 1 male, 4 female
socolofi 1 male, 4 female
estherae 1 male, 4 female

on the profiles page for estherae it says that there are ones with blue males, where could i find those and what are they called?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i'd go with the orange otherwise you'd have two light blue fish


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

how will i sex the socolofi?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

sometimes if you go to online breeders they will sell them sexed (i think)


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

Fu3l said:


> alright so the list is
> maingano 1 male, 4 female
> socolofi 1 male, 4 female
> estherae 1 male, 4 female
> ...


Those would be from Minos Reef, but cjacob raises a good point - a blue estherae male and a blue socolofi might not get along...although their body shapes are quite different. But I'm really splitting hairs here.

There are two ways to sex monomorphic mbuna.
1. If it holds eggs, it's female.
2. Venting. If you buy your fish from and LFS or local hobbyist, they may be able to vent for you.

kevin


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

this rlly isnt to do with the list, but im debating whether or not to do a large driftwood centerpiece(based off of this tank http://www.cichlids.com/tank-pictures/pic/55_Gallon-39.html) 
and use a diy background with cave(guide:http://www.duboisi.com/diy/BNdiygrotto/bndiygrotto.htm and in a 55g:



) or just stacked slate rocks. Also could i go with or without the diy background in either type?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i'm not a big fan of stacked slate, i like to just pile up rocks, fish will find holes


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

yah but in a 55 i would imagine it too be hard to stack such large rocks due to size restrictions


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

what rocks would you recommend that a normal person could buy locally? and i do have a place that sells gravel and such by me


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

Two things:

1. Get play sand or pool filter sand: http://www.fmueller.com/home/aquaristic ... substrate/

2. I would go with granite, since that's mostly what's in Lake Malawai, but rocks are largely about personal preference. Start a thread in the Aquarium Decoration forum: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=7

kevin


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would not try to sex the fish, I'd just buy juvies, maybe 8 of each. Please to sell back 3 extras to the LFS for store credit (1/3 their value). By the time you have had them 8 months, the males should be acting rambunctious and you can remove the extras.

Definitely no blue zebras, LOL.

Pool filter sand is a good substrate.

Rocks, just go to the local landscape supply, they sell river stone mulch with rocks the size of your head. Don't worry about the size of a 55G or the amount of weight. The tank can be completely filled with rocks and still hold more weight. Try to stack at least half the height of the tank.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i got over 100lbs of rock from my local landscaping supply for $16 so it's deffinately the way to go

a bunch of "river" or "creek" rocks, about 8-10 inches across, all piled up will create a lot of natural caves


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

How often would these fish breed and would I need to remove the fry from the tank? If so how would i go about that and also how should I care for them in a tank? Finally would the fry once grown be sellable?


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

Also would i be able to use saulosi instead of socolofi or the maingano or would they be too agressive?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Mbuna females can each spawn every six weeks and spit 20-60 fry each time. The other fish and the moms will eat the babies if spit in the main tank. So if you don't want to save fry, just let them spit in the tank.

Unless you are going into business and have a market, you can see a 55G with 12 females can produce way too many fry every other month to keep up with.

To have a fry business, you need at least 3 additional tanks because older fry will eat younger fry. And it's pretty hard for a hobbyist to sell to retail outlets, usually they want to give you store credit only and 1/3 the value of the fish. Really a hobby and not a profit maker.

Saulosi are not too aggressive, but I would not want to combine them with red zebras...not enough contrast between the female Saulosi and the red zebras for me.


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

but if i had to get rid of the maingano or the socolofi which should i get rid of? im asking because i found a great deal on the forum that will save me allot of money if i do it, i would prefer to remove the maingano not that i dont like them but that theyre the most expensive fish on the list.


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

i just realised i have toremove the socolofi if a want to do saulosi because of cross breeding


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

No I don't think so. Why, because they are both Pseudotropheus? It's OK to mix Pseudotropheus species, Pseudotropheus is just a holding place until the fish is classified.


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

never mind that problem anyway. I have found a suitable ordering site and I have added the estherae and the maingano but they are out of stock of socolofi. I do not know when they will be back in stock and I would like to order them soon. So what fish would also be suitable with those previous to tank partners besides the cynotilapia hara?


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

Fu3l said:


> never mind that problem anyway. I have found a suitable ordering site and I have added the estherae and the maingano but they are out of stock of socolofi. I do not know when they will be back in stock and I would like to order them soon. So what fish would also be suitable with those previous to tank partners besides the cynotilapia hara?


Iodotropheus sprengerae or Pseudotropheus sp. "acei" would work nicely with those two.

kevin


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I think I might avoid Acei in a 55G tank, they like to be in groups and are a large fish. Rusties would work. Omitting the metriaclima and the melanochromis species, what do they have available? (No names please, :lol: )


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

DJRansome said:


> I think I might avoid Acei in a 55G tank, they like to be in groups and are a large fish. Rusties would work. Omitting the metriaclima and the melanochromis species, what do they have available? (No names please, :lol: )


im sorry but that confuses me. what is that supposed to mean?


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

Fu3l said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> > I think I might avoid Acei in a 55G tank, they like to be in groups and are a large fish. Rusties would work. Omitting the metriaclima and the melanochromis species, what do they have available? (No names please, :lol: )
> ...


He means, stay away from any species that begins with Metriaclima or Melanochromis. They're too aggressive for a tank this size (with some exceptions).
Also, Ps. "acei" get too big to be comfortable in a 55.

kevin


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

Current list, please critique. All with 1:4 M:F ratio

Metriaclima emmiltos(Red Top Zebra) 
Cynotilapia sp. "hara"(White Top Afra)
Metriaclima estherae(Red Zebra)


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

Fu3l said:


> Current list, please critique. All with 1:4 M:F ratio
> 
> Metriaclima emmiltos(Red Top Zebra)
> Cynotilapia sp. "hara"(White Top Afra)
> Metriaclima estherae(Red Zebra)


Ratios are great. I have no experience with Metriaclima emmiltos(Red Top Zebra), but two of the same genus is a 55 is a bit of an invitation for war and/or cross breeding.

I would suggest Iodotropheus sprengerae (ratios not as important here), Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos, or Labidochromis sp. "Hongi."

kevin


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

would any of the following fish work?
Labeotropheus trewavasae(Red Top Trewavasae)
Tropheops sp. "Red Cheek"(Red Face Mac)
Pseudotropheus sp. Polit(Polit)
Pseudotropheus flavus(Flavus)


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

Fu3l said:


> would any of the following fish work?
> Labeotropheus trewavasae(Red Top Trewavasae)


Wonderful fish, but too big for a 55.


Fu3l said:


> Tropheops sp. "Red Cheek"(Red Face Mac)


Maybe. I had Tropheops sp. "Red Fin" and they were very violent. Just a guess here, but I would try 1m/5+f if you go this route.


Fu3l said:


> Pseudotropheus sp. Polit(Polit)


Same deal here. You might want more than 4 females. But be warned that the females are very drab.


Fu3l said:


> Pseudotropheus flavus(Flavus)


I know nothing of this species, and the females are pretty drab to boot.

kevin


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## MiteyWitey (Oct 30, 2009)

I have ps.flavus in my 100g. Females are drap, but the males are awesome


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

New list
Cynotilapia sp. "hara"(White Top Afra) 
Metriaclima estherae(Red Zebra)
Pseudotropheus flavus(Flavus)


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

MiteyWitey, can you suggest proper male/female ratios for the flavus in a 55 if the OP is stocking 10 other mbuna?

The list looks pretty good to me - if you're buying young fish, I'd go for it.

if you can find estherae that originate from Minos Reef, they often have blue males and orange/red females - they're nicer in my opinion.

*Well done* for asking so many questions before buying! Better than I did when I got into the hobby. Keep up the restraint and don't buy anything impulsively if what you want isn't available - more than a few LFS or online dealers have ruined tanks by saying: "We don't have that fish, but Melanochromis auratus would be fine in your tank..."

kevin


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

yah, actaully a few of the fish i wanted were out of stock. which is why *** had to go through such a long decision time. But, i have come out on top once again and i also have saved money in the process.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

1m:4f should work for the flavus.


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

For christmas i got the *Top FinÂ® 55 Gallon Starter Kit*. I also received 50 pounds of petco aquarium gravel(just plain tan rounded pebbles). Would the filtering be sufficient(top fin power filter 60)? And also if i wanted to could i use sand in the tank with the gravel(a 50:50 mix im thinking)?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i'm not a big fan of mixing the substrates, but you can try it with a small ammount and se how you like it, it's all a personal preference, the only time i would say no gravel at all would be with shellies or sand sifters

although if you have any cichlids going in that tend to dig pits for spawing you may want to avoid gravel

i would not suggest using just the filter that came with the tank, i used it as an extra filter before, but it's **** and wore out very quickly, i would suggest getting a couple or emperor 280's maybe

some people here like aquaclears

i use a number of different filters, from a penguin 180 to a rena xp3, each of my tanks are as clean as the next one, no two have the same filtration


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

What is the gph (gallons per hour) of the filter?

Usually when you mix sand and pebbles the sand all ends up on the bottom and the pebbles on top. So don't bother...choose one or the other.


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

i think im gonna get a marine land 400 off the forum for this to, and the top fin filter only has 300gph,not much


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Not terrible, almost 6X hourly turnover which is what I like. At some point I'd get a backup running on the tank to replace the Top Fin when it goes.


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

Somebody on the chat just said that im overstocked, should i be worried about that?

EDIT: Should i just have one big pile of rocks or like 2 or 3 smaller ones scattered around?

EDIT 2: I have also heard to recreate natural habitat best to have a actual like rock covered floor with big gapes so then they hide in those and your open space is above the rock floor


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

so i was thinknig ill put rocks on the ground,make some low lying cover, and the build it up a bit more in the center and maybe somewhere else like in here? http://gallery.me.com/pamchin#100028/PICT0484&bgcolor=black


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

a rock floor could look nice, and some higher piles in other areas, your rockwork ends up being more a personal thing, as long as you have enough spaces for the fish to hide you should be ok

before the top fin filter went out on me i rant it along side a penguin 200 something or other, forget the actuall number

the media for the top fins are the same as the tetras and i like the media, but there is just no easy way getting around having to spend money on them, at least none that i ever found, with my penguins/emperors i just hot glue quilt batting onto the used plastic cartidges to hold it in place

i have an old tetra whisper that i tossed some ceramic rings into to use as a strict bio media filter on a smaller tank just so i can get some extra gph on the tank

the top fin filter worked for a while, it should work long enough to save some money for a nicer filter, if you ever need to


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

cjacob316 said:


> a rock floor could look nice, and some higher piles in other areas, your rockwork ends up being more a personal thing, as long as you have enough spaces for the fish to hide you should be ok
> 
> before the top fin filter went out on me i rant it along side a penguin 200 something or other, forget the actuall number
> 
> ...


Im getting a marineland 400 filter. Also does anybody know if the cichlids will breed if i have a pretty much completely rock covered bottom, or do i need to leave a few uncovered sand spots?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

They will breed in a plastic bag. But I'd worry about the ability to maintain a bottom with rocks. Even large-ish pebbles let the food fall through but then you cannot siphon it out.


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

i am trying to base my tank off this http://gallery.me.com/pamchin#100028/PICT0484&bgcolor=black so what would you suggest to get close to that while maintaining the ability to clean? the idea of a rock bottom also really appeals to me which is why i wanted to do it.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't have any suggestions, not sure how or if it could be done AND allow for good maintenance.


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

hmmmmm........i guess its back to the drawing board....what if i did it with an undergravel filter and finer gravel?

And also how does an undergravel filter work and such?


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

Stay away from an UGF for mbuna...way too messy!
You could try siliconing some Aquaterra "Slimline" back grounds to the bottom, but that would be flat.
The look you're going for needs an array of rocks that are tough to fit in 48x12.

Kevin


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

then anyother ingenious rock formations? pictures appreciated


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

I have no pictures because I've not seen it done!


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

no i meant anyother cool ways for me to aquascape my tank


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

you can cover the bottom and still be able to clean it well, for one you would probably need enough water movement to prevent watse from actually falling out of the water collumn, then you'd probably need to remove the rocks every once in a while to clean under them, i've heard of some people using stuf that shoots water into the crevises to blow waste out as well


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

what if i placed a powerhead above the rocks so it would create a current and wisk away the debris?

EDIT: what can i put on the bottom of my tank to prevent the rocks from scratching the bottom?


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

There's no real harm to having the bottom of your tank scratched, since you'll never be looking through it. But you can use "egg crate" which is sold in hardware stores a light diffuser. Some swear it distributes the rock's weight and some swear it's useless. I won't wade into that.
















Check is this article on one way to keep your water (and debris) moving. Again, you find proponents AND opponents:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ug_jets.php

kevin


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

that is very good, would that work with my concept or do you think i would have to scale the rocks down a bit? also what air pump would you guys reccomend for the job?

EDIT: what if i modified that idea a bit since that is built for just a few rocks instead of a whole bottom of them. What if i used a hose, instead of pvc with, with holes in it and just looped it along the bottom of my tank then it would push the debris out from inbetween the rocks.

I dontknow if that would work with sand or not. I may have to do finer gravel. Comments are welocme.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

air pump? unless you use sponge filters there is no need for an air pump

since my rocks sit on top of my gravel i see no need for egg crate on the bottom


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

You should start a different topic in the "Equipment and Supplies" or "Aquarium Decoration" forums so you'll get more replies - not many people will come into a thread about "mbuna stocking" with opinions on PVC and rocks! :thumb:

kevin


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i don't mind, because i've been involved from the begining when it was about stocking


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

Alright so heres a summary of what im asking. I want to go throug with my idea to have a rock covered bottom to open up more swimmimg space(i will still build it up some). I want to use this airpump http://www.aquariumguys.com/whisperair4.html. Im going to loop pvc around the bottom of my tank and drill holes in the pvs where there are gaps and such in the rock so it will push out the debris for my filter to pickup. Now will the airpump be strong enough to push sand or a fine gravel out of the way of the holes(they will be tiny, prbly thinner than a lolipop stick) so they dont clog up.

This is based off of the previous linked guide (http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ug_jets.php)


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i wouldn't use an air pump, i would use a powerhead, you want to push water, not air through it


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

new thread under aquarium decoration. please post any comments you have on it there.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=1425230#1425230

And thank you guys for all the help. This is my first big tank and i want it to be right so *** had allot of questions,thanks for sticking with me.


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

I've never tackled this, but I don't think cutting holes will do the trick. The first time you have your pump turned off substrate will seep into your pipes, and it will become a nitrate factory over time. I think you need to have a small bit of piping sticking up for your outlets as in the article.
But as I said, I've never done this sort of thing. I prefer low-tech solutions like leaving enough room for a scraper and a turkey baster!

kevin


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

what is the danger of running it 24/7 like a filter? and why is a powerhead better?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

because a powerhead pushes water, not air


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

are there any commercial things i can use as jets that could be raised above the substrate? I dont want any big pvc pieces sticking up. I would prefer a nice slim cone shaped thing sticking out than a piece of bent pvc


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

throwin in a curveball here. If i wanted to do a 2 species tank with white top afras what other species could i do and what would the ratios be? Contrasting or complementing colors are appreciated.


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## Petrochromislover (Feb 23, 2009)

so what fish did you end up getting


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

none yet. Still in the setting up phase.

Hey im thinking Metriaclima lombardoi(Kenyi),Melanochromis chipokae(Chipokae), or Pseudotropheus Crabro(Bumble Bee) as the second tankmates, thoughts?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

too agressive


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

suggestions? i know i dont always come up with the best suggestions but that is not wholey me, i also have price and availability restrictions


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i understand, i'm actually thinking about a similar thing right now, with a 4 species 50 long, one of which i think i want as a cyno white top hara

i really like the lab hongi, but not sure how they would get along, given their fairly similar markings

what about Iodotropheus Sprengerae Rusty?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

or maybe Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos (Maingano)


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

anybody have suggestions for online breeders or breeders in the delaware area? right now im trying one online vendor but apparently theyre way overpriced. but i do like their selections and the fact that they sex for you, which im completely useless at


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

Fu3l said:


> none yet. Still in the setting up phase.
> 
> Hey im thinking Metriaclima lombardoi(Kenyi),Melanochromis chipokae(Chipokae), or Pseudotropheus Crabro(Bumble Bee) as the second tankmates, thoughts?


Stay away from each and every one of these species.

kevin


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

Fu3l said:


> throwin in a curveball here. If i wanted to do a 2 species tank with white top afras what other species could i do and what would the ratios be? Contrasting or complementing colors are appreciated.


They're not _really_ a blue with black bars fish, but they sort of are. So you'd be safest to pick a species that looks different and contrasts nicely. A colour wheel would tell you to go orange, which you would get to some degree with Iodotropheus sprengerae (Rusty cichlid.) As a bonus, they're fairly peaceful and not so important to sex, since multiple males often get along.
While on the wheel, darker blue contrasts with yellow, suggesting the most popular yellow cichlid, Labidochromis caeruleus, another peaceful mbuna that doesn't need sexing.

Just some suggestions.

kevin


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Posts edited to remove vendor names, please use the Reviews section.


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

alright so my plan and brain have been shredded in the chat so i have no idea what i am doing nor what i want right now.....im thinking white top afras, and 1 or 2 other species. prbly saulosi. i need 1 more for though, i was thinking twelve fish with a 1:3 ratio. would that work?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

It depends on the aggressiveness of the fish you select whether 1:3 will work. I would not have more than one cyno sp. hara male in the tank, they fight in my 75G. Saulosi, might work.


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

the 1:3 is male to female so there would only be 1 male


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Three species, four individuals each? I'd probably go a little higher on the hara females, but it might work.


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

New list with 1:3 m:f ratio,please comment
Pseudo sp. "Elongatus Chailosi"
Cynotilapia sp. "hara"(White Top Afra)
Pseudotropheus Saulosi


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would not combine blue barred fish (Elongatus and Saulosi).

And I'd probably do another female for each (1m:4f) but definitely on the Elongatus since they are aggressive.


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

today i picked up a marineland penguin 350. I also picked up 50lbs of black sand from a pet store, could i mix this with 50lbs of white sand? and what color would it come out to be? Also ill be picking up a whole bunch of lava rock, how do i make it sink?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

never had a problem making lava rock sink, also, the sand won't turn colors, it will just have a salt and pepper look


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

thats good. With 12-15 fish depending on my stocklist do you think the 650 gph i get from my top fin 60 and marineland penguin 350 will be ok? Thats a tank turnover of 11.818 and hour at max flow.


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

Fu3l said:


> thats good. With 12-15 fish depending on my stocklist do you think the 650 gph i get from my top fin 60 and marineland penguin 350 will be ok? Thats a tank turnover of 11.818 and hour at max flow.


You're laughing with that kind of turnover.

Make sure you wash your sand quite a few times before you put it in your tank - the less dust it has going in, the sooner you'll have clear water!
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/videos/cleaning_sand.php

kevin


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

> You're laughing with that kind of turnover.
> kevin


is that good or bad? Also if if i did white top afras and saulosi what other fish could i do? If i did a only 2 species tank with white top afras and saulosi how many of each should i keep?[/quote]


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

6-7 of each
one male for each (what i like about doing just two species, is that you can really increase the number of females, and when you have certain fish where the females can show color when not too stressed, then you relieve stress on females with every one you add, so you gett better chance or pretty females, that's just my opinion) - sorry that it is so long winded


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

Petrochromislover in the chat said that i could do 2 males and 5 females and it would let the males color up


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Sometimes that happens and sometimes 2 males kill each other.


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

im still confused what ridley said. also could i do Labidochromis sp. "Mbamba" with white top afras and if i could do multiple harems of each species or if that inprobable.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i have thought about purchasing two males to increase my chances of getting a really good one and removing the sub as soon as it becomes obvious, but i would not leave it in


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## steelers fan (Jun 26, 2009)

> im still confused what ridley said.


not sure either but 11X an hour is great filtration


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

what are some good white afra compatible fish that have very interseting females and nice males. Because while nice males are important in a tank like this where you will have many females i feel that very good looking females is vital.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i have my own thread going trying to find out if 
Tropheops sp. 'red cheek' will work

the males are really nice and have yellow females


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

white top afras are a deffinent in my tank. i just need to find a suitable tank mate or two.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

check out the tropheops sp. red cheek, i think i want them with either the white top hara or a lab hongi


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

could i do the white top afras with 1 male and 5 females and like 1 male red cheek and 2 females with like 2 or 3 haps?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

there are no haps that you could put in a 55 that i would suggest with any mbuna but yellow labs


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

steelers fan said:


> > im still confused what ridley said.
> 
> 
> not sure either but 11X an hour is great filtration


Local saying, I guess. "You're laughing" = you're in good shape = 11x turnover is more than enough.

Sorry about the confusion.

...and I wouldn't get 2 saulosi males; 1 or 3, keeping 1 1m/3f ratio if possible, so that the male/male aggression is spread around more.

kevin


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

what about peacocks? arnt they smaller and less agressive?


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

Fu3l said:


> what about peacocks? arnt they smaller and less agressive?


http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/c ... .php?cat=3
Most are. Peacock (Aulonocaras) females are very plain looking and fairly indistinguishable from species to species. So you'll have a tank full of hybrids in no time if you keep both sexes of more than one species.
For that reason, many decide to go for an all male tank to get the best colour.
Best to read this (if you haven't) to see what you might be getting into. It requires one net, two tanks, and many trips to the LFS.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/a ... malawi.php
But counter-point with this:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/m ... acocks.php
Not sure about tank size requirements though, Peacocks are not my thing.

kevin


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

im just talking about doing white top afras 1 male 5 female(or 4) and wa wondering if i could keep 2-4 peacocks with them. all males of course


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

I'll throw out an educated guess. Please disregard if/when someone with experience comes along.

Cynotilapia sp. "hara" is a fairly tough mbuna, and I don't think a group would be terribly kind to Peacocks. Most information I've come across in reference to Aulonocara and mbuna says only Labidochromis caeruleus is suitable in the mix.

I know Fogelhund has a 29 with labs and peacocks. You should PM him.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/prof ... ile&u=1722

kevin


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

i was thinking Aulonocara stuartgranti (Ngara),Aulonocara kandeense , and Aulonocara Sp. German Red. All males of course


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

a peacock would be even worse than a hap, they aren't agressive enough, some haps can work, but usually the larger ones that won't fit inside your tank, if you want any mbuna stick with all mbuna


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i think we already went over all this?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The mbuna are too aggressive for the _haps and peacocks..._

I think OP was thinking the haps were too aggressive for the mbuna and so suggested peacocks.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i think so too, but half of the first few pages of this thread were about how mbuna were too aggressive for haps and peacocks, so the entire thread completely regressed


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

How much swimming room would 12 cichlids need? right now im doing white top afras 1:5 and some other cichlid(are kenyi or Red Zebras alright?). I have about 66lbs of lavarock and they leave a varying amount of 1-6.5 inches of space on the top. Also there is about 2-3 inches of space in the back and in the front the rocks lean forward o there is less room in nearer to the top(about 3-4 inches) but as it nears the bottom it goes from about 3 inches to 6 or 7.

Sorry if this is confusing.

How do i post a picture without having to put it on a photo site?

EDIT: how well does Aquarium Pharmaceutical's Stress Zyme work for cycling? Is it as good as seachem stability?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Kenyi need a 75G or larger. Red Zebra would be OK. There is only one product I would trust to cycle a tank and that is Dr. Tim's One and Only. As long as they can lurk in and swim through the spaces between rocks, you can pretty much fill the tank. I would allow several spaces of substrate with rock walls as the males like to claim these for their territories and they like to have a choice.

You cannot post a pic on CF without posting it on another photo site, to the best of my knowledge. There are free photo sites with instant sign-up.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i will say i have used tetra safe start and it worked really well, i had pulled an old filter to use on a new tank, added ammonia just to double check and the ammonia spiked and never came down, hence no bacteria tranfered. so i ran to the store bought some safe start, tossed it in and within hours the ammonia was gone and nitrates were climbing, the key is checking the dates on the bottle making sure it's within 6 months of the production date

i would not risk adding fish right away, but i would start my fishless cycle with ammonia, add the safe start and make sure it does it's job before adding fish, also i don't believe you really need the bottle labelled for your size tank, if there is really bacteria in there, it will multiply fast enough to catch up to your bio load


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

is it safe for me to use the filter from my 7 gallon tank to jumpstart even though it has a snail problem and a algae bloom? will it make any difference or should i just not use it. I can also bag up gravel from my 7 gallon and put it in my filters if that helps.

Will any of these processes speedup my cycle process?

Will the addition of stresszyme help in addition to these processes?

DJ your not that far from me at all. Where do you get your fish? im looking for a good local or at least semi-local place.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i wouldn't waste my money on stress zyme

and you can use your gravel and filter, but there is a chance the snails will come with it


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

how much faster would it make my cycle?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

how much faster would what make your cycle? ht egravel and filter? who knows, there is no guarantee, but it could take anywhere from 24 hours to a few weeks, if there is enough bacteria in the items you put in the tank, it could take just 24 for the bacteria to multiply enough


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## Fu3l (Dec 17, 2009)

It was very weird happening across this when I did a quick google. As I went through and read it I was confounded by the thoughts of the OP, then I realized it was me. It was a real mind trip.

So around 6 months after this posting, some of the foretold happened and I can't say I was happy all the time. A quick recap of what has happened since-

I ordered 8 fish: Blue neon chewindi, blue orchid, ngara flametail orange, regal blue, sulfur head, usisya flavescent, red blaze lithobates, and makonde yellow-black fin. Of the 8 fish I ordered, 7 arrived alive. The blue orchid was dead upon arrival, proof was sent and I was refunded for him. But the store had thrown and a free super red empress (which has since grown into the most impressive fish in my tank, but sadly a bit of a bully who will soon be leaving).

The blue neon chwindi and the ngara flametail die in the first month due to what as it soon became apparent, high agression. As I do goto school I am missing during the day, which was when some very bad fighting seemed to be going on. Unfortunately I had no way to tell what was going on, only that there was a bully.

He was soon found over a long weekend of observation, it was what I believe was my usisya flavescent (they all looked basically the same for a very long time). He was removed and given away.

Then, another tragedy happened. Of the remaining 5 fish, one more died. I believe it was the regal blue, I was never sure what happened because there was nothing wrong in the tank that I could see.

So I am now left with a full colored up sulfur head, a fully colored supre red empress, a what looks like subadult red blaze lithobates, and some completely unknown fish (makonde yellow black fin from my best guess as almost all the fish looked exactly the same).

It is a sad thing, but I am going to get rid of my super empress because he has bullied my 2 catfish nearly to death so I had to move them out, and has terrorized my remaining 3 fish on and off.

But after that full recap, I have a question. I would like to restock my tank with suitable fish once the super red is gone and more than likely the unknown uncolored up fish. Any thoughts? I would still like to stick to a bachelor tank if possible because it seems like an easier route as I already have 2 male fish that I dont want to get rid of if possible just to restock the tank.


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