# Help !! Two mbuna's acting strange



## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

Help !! My two male yellow finned mbamba's are acting strangly.

Brief history. Added fish on 11/6 to fully cycled tank. Check water quality every 2-3 days....it's always been 0-0-5. This morning didn't pay to much attention to ech fish and went ahead and did my weekly water change. Afterwards noticed my two males missing....found them both in a cave together. Thought maybe one male was holding other hostage...so moved some rocks. They both separated and since then have both been in different cave , hovering at the gravel..not swimming or eating, breathing heavy. I did notice days ago , what looked like white lip stick on their lips (and some other mbuna's lips) . It's not fuzzy or growth like...just like painted on looking. I googled it and read where it was probably do to them grazing on the rocks. Now wondering if its a disease .

What should i do ?? Only medicine I have is Melafix, Ich clear . Also have Prime (which I added 2 capfuls after water change and another capful about 1 hr ago). Also have some aquarium salt.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If this all happened today, I would not worry about them not eating until tomorrow. The white lips are OK. I would not medicate until you know if they have a disease and what disease it might be. You may need to remove one male. What are the dimensions of the tank? What is your stock (species and gender)?


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

The tank is 55 gallon, don't remember demensions off hand but it is 4 feet long. Tons of hiding spots. 
Stock is :
6 labs (1m/5f)
4 scolofi (unsexed juvies....no aggression what so ever which these guys)
6 yellow fin mbamba (2m /4f)...had ordered 5 female but one dies shortly after receiving them

Yes, the two males started this today


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'd put one male in the hospital tank and leave one in the main tank. See if they eat tonight.


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

Question : If it's stress because of both being males of same species...wouldn't it just be the one less dominant male showing these symptoms ? What's strange is that right after getting them one was more colorful and more of the boss ...the other was less colorful. No aggressive behaviors though. Now both are stressed out looking (if it's stress causing this). My problem is I loaned out my only extra tank to my daughter. For Christmas I've asked my son for a aquarium (10 gallon)...which I know he already ordered the hood (LED type) and my other son is buying the aquaclear filter. Darn ....and now I need it and my son's are happy to "surprise" me with aquarium stuff..lol...of course this fish problems couldn't wait till after Christmas


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

One of the males died during the night. Can't find the other one.....there is so many rocks in the tank I'll have to take them out to find the other guy. Please read above comment and tell me what you think. I'm really worried


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If there is not yet a winner in their dispute, they could both be stressed. Maybe now that one is gone the other will recover on his own.


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

The other male died this evening. I'm seeing some symptoms now in the other mbunas. Not all of them are coming to the top of the tank when I open the lid (normally they race to the top). A couple of the labs of feces that looks like a hair . Another mbamba looks like it's belly is bit swollen. The one that died this evening it's belly look a little swollen. Another in the tank face looks anorexic. I look up Malawi bloat ....and it seems to match what I'm seeing. I'm not sure what's stressing them out to cause this . I'm doing the following since receving them Nov 6th (on-line supplier)
1. prestine water conditions...I've been cking every 2-3 days with API /weekly water changes 35-40% matching tanks water temp/ prime conditioner
2. feeding 3 times daily what they consume in 30 seconds
3. Food API Veggie flakes (33% Protein), spirulina flakes, cobalt cichlid flakes (44% Protein), and zuchinni spears every 4 days
4. water temp 82 F
5. ton of caves, and they have actually been very peaceful. No fighting , no frayed fins.
6. Tank 55 gal, with 3 species (yellow lab, scolofi and yellow finned mbamba)....which i picked because of their less aggressive behavior
7. My API water tests are consistent at 0/0/5 and ph is 8.2
The other thing: when refilling the tank I get alot of little bubbles stuck to decorations and side of glass..i always thought that was normal and it goes away I say with 4-5 hours. I have well water and lived here 10 years and all my fish have thrived in my community tanks.


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

......also, I've got 2 multi syno's in the tank, should they be removed before treatment ?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Get metronidazole and begin treatment for bloat. No need to remove the synodontis. The bubbles are not a problem.


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

Darn it ....i just removed the synos to a 5 gallon with a crappy built in hood filter system.....and my poor betta is in a bowl with only bubbles wand. What a mess !!! What are the other types of meds I could get. I'm three hours away from even a medium city. I've got WalMart and Pet Supplies Plus with a mini sized fish section. I can order from Fosters but I need to start meds ASAP

This morning since I had to take out a million rocks (no kidding....I went half way up with rocks) . The four remaining female mbamba's are all bloated and hiding. Prior to removing rocks ...tried to feed some deshelled mashed peas....mbamba's didn't even come out. Some of the yelllow labs don't seem as vigourous coming to the top of the tank. The four scolofi's seem unaffected by all of this.

If you could list the meds in order of what would work best....i'll take it with me. I

Should I put the cats back....i'm probably stressed everyone out by now !!! ...with the moving rocks and transfer. And poor Franklin (betta) got bumped from his tank.

And my husband looking at me like ...."well , that was a good $250.00 spent on fish "......he doesn't have a clue the cost of the tank set up (thank goodness !!!)


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

......also added 5 TB aquarium salt two days ago. Should I do a water change before treating with med ??


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Remove the salt and all other medications. Order the metronidazole online for overnight delivery. Nothing else you can get locally will really help. I'd put the cats back.


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

Found API General Cure...main med is 250mg Metronidazole per packet. Entire box treats 100 gal (my tank is 55 gal) used 6 packets and have 4 packs left. Instructions on box say wait 48 hrs and treat again. Wait 48 hours and 25% water change. Should I get another box ,since I'll be a packet short ??

I didn't remove the salt...you think it will be ok?? or should I start over?? (did remove the carbon). Also I stopped feeding for now.

The 4 female mbamba's are coming out a little (this morning they wouldn't at all). All remaining fish are accounted for . My water quality did go up to 0/0/10 (from 0/0/5). I'll test daily. And tomorrow morning i'll move the cats back.

Thanks for all your help , can't tell you how much I appreciate it


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

When I treat my tanks, I overdose. For a 75G I use 1.5 teaspoon in the morning and again at night daily, 4 days.

Do a big water change (the met lasts 24 hours, so you won't be removing medication) before your next dose to get the salt out.


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

DJRansome said:


> When I treat my tanks, I overdose. For a 75G I use 1.5 teaspoon in the morning and again at night daily, 4 days.
> 
> The 1.5 teaspoon is with API General Cure ?? ....seems like the 6 packets I added yesterday would be more than 1.5 tsp (but maybe not)


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

.....also , do you do a water change before each treatment ? (or just to remove the salt)


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

DJRansome said:


> When I treat my tanks, I overdose. For a 75G I use 1.5 teaspoon in the morning and again at night daily, 4 days.
> 
> Do a big water change (the met lasts 24 hours, so you won't be removing medication) before your next dose to get the salt out.


Curious, why remove the salt?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The salt is not needed and can irritate the skin of the fish. I'd just remove the salt. I like to keep things simple.

I'm not sure how to convert 1.5 teaspoons of pure met to the proper amount of API Cure which is mixed with other meds. But just letting you know I dose 2X daily and not 1X every 48 hours.


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

DJRansome said:


> The salt is not needed and can irritate the skin of the fish. I'd just remove the salt. I like to keep things simple.
> 
> I'm not sure how to convert 1.5 teaspoons of pure met to the proper amount of API Cure which is mixed with other meds. But just letting you know I dose 2X daily and not 1X every 48 hours.


So, the box says to use 1 packet (250mg) per 10 gallon. So I would use 5 1/2 packets (55gal tank) in morning and then 5 packs again at night. For 4 days.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Sorry, I don't have experience with the API product.


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

How do you like Clout product ? I've got enough of the API product for the entire 4 days but thought I'll go ahead and order from Fosters to have some ready in case it happens again. They carry the Clout. Here they wanted over $14.00 a box for the API General Cure and I had to get 3 boxes !!!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would only use clout if I can't get metro. I have not used clout in years. It does stain your silicone and I'd be more worried about my bacteria and synos. I'd only use clout in a hospital tank, not the main tank.

Rather I'd say if metro does not work, then it was not bloat and observe further to diagnose the real problem.

Note that once a fish stops eating, is bloated and has the clear/thready feces it may not survive regardless of the treatment, but the fish who are not yet that far gone have a good chance of recovery.


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

Thanks ...i'll stick with the metro and check price of it if Foster's has some. I think 14 dollars a box is somewhat pricey (each box was 2 treatments for my 55 gallon). Would have been cheaper in a hospital tank, but I wanted to treat all fish since so many have the bloat. I've got to do my fish count on them this morning, don't want any dead fish in tank. I think at least four won't make it. The others seem to be getting hungry. Tomorrow will be treatment day #4. I got my extra tank back from my daughter last night and will be setting it up today. After tomorrow's treatment any fish still showing symptoms will be moved to that tank.

Does above sound like a good plan ??


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

.....all remaining fish accounted for. They all came to the glass to great me . One of F mbamba is very bloated with stringy poop....she's hanging on, but like you said I'm not keeping my hope up. Another f mbamba really looks like she's holding ..that would be cool if I could get some replacement from her (the two that passed were the males...and they were goreous. Only one lab i'm worried about, but her stomach actually looks a bit sunken in. Don't see thready poop in the other labs like they had couple days ago and no bloating. The scolofi's are fine.

The one I think might be holding...it looks like her bottom jaw has dropped down and enlarged.


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

......she is holding , i can see what looks like white in her mouth. Is it worth trying to save to fry with the bloat and antibiotics in the tank ?


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

.....Question; this evening all fish accounted for. One f mbamba has a normal poop. One mbamba & one lab has stringy poop. Tomorrow is last day of metro med. If i'm still seeing stringy poop should I still not feed ??? When should I start feeding again ??


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The fry will be fine. Feed on day 5. With no food in their system...you may not see thick dark poop until they start eating again.


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

All mbuna's are alive and active, and seem hungry. One f mbamba still has abdominal swelling. Didn't have time to set up hospital tank today.... do you think I can leave her in the main tank or should I move her out ? (she's bloated but comes to the top of tank like she is hungry).

I"ve read a lot about Malawi bloat and it seems that its set off by some stress. I've been trying to figure out what i've done wrong. My water parameters are perfect..I probably over test them !! They were shipped two weeks earlier but that shouldn't have been the stress ...since they were all settled in. I did do a 45% water right before I noticed symptoms. But probably the culprit was my feeding schedule of 3 times a day (what they could eat in 30 sec....which actually is a lot the way they eat). Also I say 5-6 days early I gave some Tetra Cichlid Pellets to them that was handed down to me........already threw that away !!

Here's my food list for the mbuna's. Does it look ok?

Ocean Nutrition Spirulina Flakes (48% protein)--had this for community tanks, almost empty
O.S.I. spirulina pellets (42% protein)--to replace above
API Tropical Greens--(33%protein)
Cobalt Cichlid Flakes --(44%protein)

Is there to much protein in these foods ??

Feed x2 times daily and also include fresh veggies.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would attribute the stress to (a) new tank and (b) two male mbambas. Once one fish is stressed and it comes down with something (bloat in this case) it can infect the tank. With bloat...it can take a month or two until the next fish dies. People don't realize it's bloat because the "trigger" happened so long ago.

I do not attribute bloat to food, unless the food is so bad it causes the fish stress. I don't think any of the foods you list are bad.

That said, I would feed 1X daily and look at the ingredients in the food. One staple food is plenty if it is high quality. An example of high quality ingredients would be krill, herring, squid, spirulina and lots of fruits and vegetables. Things like fish meal and other flours and meals you want to see a minimum, just enough to bind the food together. What I feed is 34% protein.


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

So, I'll only feed once per day , fast once per week. How do you make sure your multi's get enough. I have some API Bottom Feeder pellets but the cichlids go for them. I"ve tried studding zuchinni with the pellets but the mbuna's take them and run !! When feeding the zuchinni (or other fresh veggies) can that be left in overnight ?? (or will mbuna's eat all night)


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The synodontis will compete with the mbuna for food, even swarming to the surface if necessary to get enough. Unless their bellies are concave I would not worry about them.

Fresh veges can be left in for 10 hours. But check the bellies...this may not be necessary.


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

Concave belly....that's exactly the word i've been trying to think of for describing one of the labs (in a earlier post I said anorexic...haha). Anyway the whole time when I noticed the bloat this one female had the concave belly and her face looks skinny. She eating and active (not sure on her poop). I googled it just now and sounds like possibly an internal parasite...i've got a hospital tank set up that I can put her in and treat for parasites. No other fish show that symptoms. What med would be good for parasite ? I've got some of the jungle parasite medication.


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

......I'm sitting right in front of the tank and actually the other female labs have a little bit on concave belly (not as pronounced as the one). Could it be from the fasting for those days ? But that one had the concave belly when bloat started. Should I treat the whole tank ? Is yes, will it hurt the multi's ? I tell you...I'm really losing sleep over this tank


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

Here's a video of the labs: starting on frame 1:08 the one with the worst concave belly is near the back (her belly has been getting worse), at the same time you see another lab in front with a little concave belly and stringy poop. Would parasite also cause stringy poop ?






This video shows one of the mbamba that still looks a little swollen:


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Concave bellies can be caused by bloat too...the intestine is blocked and food cannot be digested. You could have some fish that are too damaged to recover.

You are not looking for feces that are long...rather they are thready and clear/white. Not food colored.

Or...they have not really had time to gain weight as yet, do you agree? Are they eating? I'd wait several weeks for bellies to round out unless the fish is not eating.

(Bloat is treated as an internal parasite so you have already done that. If the fish continues to get worse, look for another cause.)

You could try PraziPro if you think you still have parasites.

Video is private, cannot view it.


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

Here's the video again. They all come up to the top when I feed them. I'll have to pay more attention to the lab that looks the worse. The others the concave is slight so they might just need to put on some more weight. Question: I'm probably going to lose the lab, with him getting worse /more stressed that could start the whole bloat thing in the tank again...right ? In that case is it even worth trying to save her at this point ?


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

oops....forgot the video ..haha






In the beg of video ..she is near top of tree stump. At frame 1:08 she is in background (by intake tube) and another one with slight concave in the front center (that one has thready poop)


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

....after looking at "her" today, I'm thinking she might be a "he". These are the Lion Cove variety, I seem to remember something about the females look like the males but as they get older they turn more yellow. Initially I thought (3 weeks ago) had only one male, shortly afterwards I realized there were two males....if this one is a male that would make 3 males out of the 6 labs ordered. At what age do they start breeding ? The one mbamba that looked like she was holding no longer looks like it. My ratio is all off.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I've had labs hold at 1.5" and 6 months old. I don't think that lab looks that bad, but I'd put "it" in the hospital tank in case it does have something. It will be stress-free as well so maybe it can recover there.


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## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

Thanks again DJRansome for all your help. I'm so glad you don't think he (or she--not really sure) is that bad. She did eat yesterday. I'll move her into the hospital tank today.


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