# 15 Demasoni...now down to 12...



## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi guys,

As youmay of seen on another thread I recently purchased 15 demasoni & 5 yellow labs, everything seemed to be fine but since saturday 3 dem. have died one of them I noticed didnt look well & he was swimming very slow but seemed to be breathing heavy...but the other 2 just were floating half eaten when I arrived home from work...

What should I do...? it doesnt seem to be to be from aggression as the tank is very well stocked with rocks.

Could it be an infection..? can I just treat the whole tank with something..?


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## chrisFewell (Feb 3, 2009)

im kinda reckless when treating but I love using aquarium salt. In fact, thats all *** ever used to treat illness in my tanks. But test your water, nitrates, nitrites and ammonia.


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## anythingfishylady1 (May 3, 2010)

what are your water parameters? have you tested it? did you let your tank cycle before you filled it with your cichlids? if your tank hasn't cycled they could be dying from ammonia poisoning, nitrate poisoning and usually by the time they start dying there is not much hope for saving the rest of them. Giving us your water parameters would help us help you.


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

hi, will test the water again over the next day or so, but I tested last week & everything was as expected (i.e no ammonia & nitrates were at low levels)

Tank was cycled before fish were added.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i would almost always assume aggression first with these fish and look for signs

are fish hiding up in corners? are fins nipped or frayed? do you see fish relentless chasing others?

assuming that a lot of rocks means no aggression is just a bad way to go about it, in fact with dems, rocks can increase aggression.

don't just jump to the assumption that it's a disease and start chucking meds into the tank. observe the fish, and identify the problem


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## whatupcichlids (Apr 12, 2010)

Hey im sorry about that, but from previous experience, I believe the 3 that died were the weak ones.... Dems are insane.


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## poseidons minions (Dec 1, 2009)

i 15 dem now only 4 are Left


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

Cichlid New Boy,
I searched up your post, and found you have had it set up since 18 April.
So that means its running with full stock for about 3 weeks. I wonder if you might have mini cycling...

When did these 3 fishes died? Were they within the first month, or just recently?
Were their death spaced out 1 each week? or did 3 of them decide to die one after another between days?

If it is spaced out then you might suspect aggression, or bloat or diet related. How much do you feed your fish, and what food do you use? Demasoni are suppose to need very high vege content diet (or low protein below 40%). 
If it is aggression, then remove either the injured fish (if badly injured) or the aggressive fish, and put him in a breeder bucket or a hospital tank. Make sure hosp tank is cycled too.

If it is all within a few days, then it probably is tank cycling. Although you have cycled your tank before adding fish, a tank mini-cycle is known to happen within 6 weeks of stocking your tank. In fact my feeling is that its a problem with cycling because your tank is relatively new (3 weeks) and you stocked all your fish at one go. How frequently have you been testing and changing water in this 3 weeks? 
When I stocked my tank, i had to do a change every 3~4 days to keep waters in check because of rising nitrite and ammonia. My choice of first aid measure would be to change water, don't touch the filters, and add ammonia/nitrite detox. Also feed very lightly if you detect any ammonia or nitrite at all.
My tank was stable only after 4 weeks.

PS: I noticed one of your female had like 7 bars.


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## Malawidolphin (Dec 15, 2006)

I bought 8 Dems and I tried to find more to bring my numbers up, but we only have 2 LFS in the nearest city and I wasn't going to order online. The only way to get them here was by air. l Too expensive unless you are purchasing a large number of fish. I am now down to 2 Dems. I didn't see any real serious aggression, just minor chasing, but I am also not in front of the tank 24hrs a day. I imagine I will lose the remaining female, although right now they are getting along fine. I kept mine on a very good high veggie diet, so I think aggression is the likely culprit. If you aren't having a mini cycle , aggression is the likely culprit. If the attack doesn't kill them the stress from the aggressor will.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

> Cichlid New Boy,
> I searched up your post, and found you have had it set up since 18 April.
> So that means its running with full stock for about 3 weeks. I wonder if you might have mini cycling...


a mini cycle would have corrected itself after 3 weeks, you wouldn't just now be seeing problems with fish, but he needs to test his water to make sure. I would just think more than 3 out of 20 would be having problems if it was an ammonia or nitrite issue

like i said, assume aggression, even if you don't see fish chasing fish, that doesn't mean you don't have some bullies, dems are notorious for killing each other off, more rocks means more territories to defend, you aren't providing hiding places as much as you're increasing territories, therefore increasing aggression.

I hope you come back soon and tell us what your test results are, if should only take a few minutes to test water. also let us know how the other fish look and act.


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

mini cycle can happen anytime IMO. If you suddenly overfeed, ammonia/nitrite can kill a few fish. not always kill the whole tank. But yea, if a few die, you should see others gasping etc... so cjacob probably is more correct on this, aggression.

after looking at the picture, i think there shd be enough places for them to hide / chase.
But who knows.

always rule out bad water first anyway.


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## Dego510 (Mar 9, 2009)

I don't think it has to do with a mini-cycle since his Labs are doing fine.

In my experience (1 year of keeping them), even 12 to 15 demasoni doesn't always work. I've always had trouble even in that range. Recently, I added 11 adult demasoni to the existing 10 juveniles and everything is great. No losses in over a month, no nipped fins, and no one hiding behind filter intakes. I only lost one that got sucked into my Koralia powerhead. :x

You probably have aggression that you don't see. Dems are insane, but beautiful to look at.

I will always keep no less than 20 demasoni in my 55 gallon.


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi people,

water readings below:

Ammonia 0mgl
Nitrite 0mgl
Nitrate 50mgl

So I can obviously see where my problem is.... so there is a possibility of over feeding,

How much should I be feeding 12 dems & 5 yellow's..?

I know my tap water does have roughly 20mgl nitrate, but I believe that isnt a dangerous level for cichlids..?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

why do you think it's over feeding? i still say aggression, your nitrates aren't high enough to say you're over feeding them, especially if your nitrates are 20mgl out of the tap

i bet you its aggression


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

50mgl of nitrate is fine.
You don't have any ammonia and nitrite, so it means your bacteria colony is breaking down all the ammonia and nitric effectively, and thus you are not overfeeding.

For my 14dem and 8yellow, they are about 1.5~2.5 inch size, I feed probably 1/2 teaspoon (flat) of NLS each day 1/4 morning 1/4 evening. I know its a vague description, but hope you get the idea.
A better estimate would be that they gobble it all up within 5~10 seconds.


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

Now down to 11...!!!

Aaaaarrrggghhhhh...!!... what do I do..!?!?

I get in from work today & another Dem is floating dead at the top of the tank... I see the odd bit of aggression but nothing too serious, I just dont want to keep losing fish every few days

Will they keeping picking off the weak until there is only 1 left..?

please help me..!


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## Dego510 (Mar 9, 2009)

If it is aggression, then yes, they will pick each other off until they become only one. Watch your tank for a while and see if one of them is the main aggressor. Take that one out. That may work, but then you'll only have 10. The only thing that worked for me was overcrowding the tank, so I now have 20 demasoni. Are you noticing nipped fins?

If it's health related . . . do they have sunken in stomachs? Do they look like they have ich or bloat?

Here is my tank . . . lots of rocks and lots of demasoni (20). No death or nipped fins. I just have to stay on top of my water changes.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

take out a lot of rock maybe, if you don't allow them to form territories you'll have less aggression

if your fish are dieing your aggression is serious, you just don't see it, sometimes you just have to plant yourself in front of your tanks all day to find out the cause


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

Dego - your tank looks amazing... how do you keep your rocks that clean..? i've had mine in my tank for only a month or 2 & already it looks like i've just dragged them out of a swamp..!

As for removing rocks, would ths not increase aggresion with the reamining cichlids fighting over what territories are left over...?

Should I think about replacing the 4 i've lost..?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Are the "weak ones" lurking at the surface or hiding behind heaters or filter intakes for a couple of days before they die? Does every fish eat every day? Check out every fish daily for poop, anyone white and thready?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

*Cichlid New Boy* doesn't give the impression that he spends much time in front of his tank.


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

since your ammonia/nitrite/nitrate are ok, you might wanna check your ph and temperature?
Make sure ph is above 7, and temperature between 23 - 27 C.

Once you rule out water issues, then it must be either they are getting bloat (which will show signs 3~5 days before actually dying), or aggression.

If you don't know but suspect aggression, then my advice would be to sit down in front the tank, hiding behind an object, several feet away to observe the fish. YOu should be able to spot the dominant male within minutes. Isolate that one in a proper cycled tank or a large breeder bucket.
wait several days to see if u get any more death.


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

> cjacob316 - Cichlid New Boy doesn't give the impression that he spends much time in front of his tank.


 Thanks for your comment - what a great help.

In response to the other posts, i dont see any of the fish lurking at surfaces or behind pipes etc, & i do look at my tank (that's why I spent all this money in the first place!) however the agression i've seen isjust what I expected from cichlids...all other cichlid tanks i've seen always have a few lively fish & the odd bit of chasing, but thats why we keep cichlids as opposed to normal community tanks isnt it..? becuase they seem to have some character about them.

I believe every fish eats every day, but there is always a mad rush when feeding, so can't be 100% sure.

Also no white thready poop.

Temp is 24.9

As for isolating the aggressor, I will have a more intense watch but so far have not seen any one fish that is more aggresive than another


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i only made the comment because you seemed to continuously avoid answering any and all questions about what was going on in your tank. but obviously I was wrong.

if a fish isn't eating it probably won't follow the pack to the food, so if you don't notice any of them staying down low or behind rocks, you're probably fine in that respect.

if you have a number of fish showing equal amounts of aggression then that's about normal, but do you noitce if they show aggression towards multiple fish, or tend to focus on a single fish? if any of them focuses their aggression on a single fish then chances are that fish is the problem imo.

do most of the chases end after a few feet or are they ongoing?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Let me say that I never see my fish biting each other, but I do see nipped fins, chasing, and when someone is starting to be stressed, lurking.

I have never had a fish die that was not first lurking for a couple days, then they stop eating for one-two days.

So Cichlid New Boy, the next time you feed, watch the least healthy looking fish and make sure the maybe-sick ones eat.


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## metro6775 (Sep 16, 2008)

I have (had) 12 dems and 8 yellow labs. It has been a week and I'm down to 10 dems and 6 yellow labs in my 75 gallon tank. My parameters are around 0/0/5. I do have a bit of scum on the surface that I'm trying to get rid of.

I am feeding NLS sinking Cichlid pellets. The fish seem to really be growing well just in a week. Anyway, mine act just like yours just before they croak. I will see one or two lurking at the bottom of the tank and then in a day or two, dead.

My yellow labs are always out and about. I never see all the dems out and about. When I feed all the yellows come out but I usually only see about 8 dems at a time. So I am thinking it is dem aggression.

Out of the 12 that I got, I swear they are all male but two, but it is hard to tell. I know at least 4 are really vibrant and flare. I wish there was a sure fire way to tell the females from the males.

If I am going to keep a colony of dems I'm thinking I will need to go back to the LFS to purchase alot more.

And my dems chase alot, never see one catch another one though.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

they don't catch them and kill them, being chased stresses a fish out, that's what kills them


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

You can experiment with a few things to see if any would work before they kill off every one:
*I'm not saying these will work, but from a collection of posts that i have read, these were some of the things that people claimed to work*

1) Rocks - either more, or none, or rearrange, etc etc,..

2) more fish, apparently 12 is a bare minimum. Many peoploe had success with much more than 12. 20 or so seems to be a good number. I did 18 in a 55g. I removed 4 males, and now 14 which is holding up good. has had 4 spawns since i set up the tank 2 months ago.

3) remove aggressors. although they are the most beautiful ones, the next fish to step up to the dominant position will also color up so continue removing dominant males until its all peaceful. (but don't go below 12)

4) keep them well fed. Don't know, some people report that if their fish go hungry they get more aggressive.

5) reduce temperature. Apparently it works for some people.

6) A breeder showed me his demasoni setup. He had ~20 or so fish in a 2 by 2 feet. Successfully breeding for years. He had rocks up to the waterline, but not very densly packed. He also had a secret ingredient, he used garage floor matting or was it drain gutter of some sort. Looks like undergravel filter flat large pieces. He cut them up to smaller pieces to support his rocks from the glass, and put a few pieces scattered around. 
The important thing is that it had holes which allowed only the smaller fish to hide in. The small fishes are smart enough to make use of them effectively. Its ugly, but you might be able to find similar stuff with this concept. I doubt any natural rock or pot or cave can give you this effect, but go to a hardware / home improvement department and have a look around.

i'm sure if you read more posts, you can find some more suggestions,... hope you find a solution soon. good luck.


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## Ckac13 (Feb 24, 2009)

I do something similar in one of my dem tanks. I take a bunch of ceramic pots (which support some slate) and drill holes in each of them, and place them open end down. Each one has holes for the different sizes in the tank, so theres always a place for the smaller ones to go, that the bigger ones cant. I couldnt even think of the last time i had a death in the last 2 years.


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

thanks everyone for all your help & suggestions... I will keep a very close eye over the next few days & especially at feeding time..

will keep you updated if anything looks out of the ordinary


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

Ckac13 said:


> I do something similar in one of my dem tanks. I take a bunch of ceramic pots (which support some slate) and drill holes in each of them, and place them open end down. Each one has holes for the different sizes in the tank, so theres always a place for the smaller ones to go, that the bigger ones cant. I couldnt even think of the last time i had a death in the last 2 years.


awesome idea. Normally the females would be much smaller, and so they are the ones that need to hide. 
But i imagine you probably can't see your fish holding cos they will be hiding in the pot all the time?


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

metro6775 said:


> Out of the 12 that I got, I swear they are all male but two, but it is hard to tell. I know at least 4 are really vibrant and flare. I wish there was a sure fire way to tell the females from the males.


metro6775 how can u swear you got all males but 2 if you haven't vented them 

Seriously, if you picked up the fish randomly, your chances to have male/female is 50-50.
Just let them grow and see. My first female to spawn, i could swear that it was a male because of vibrant color, aggressive nature, size, and she does the shaking to other fishes.

Now i have learned that females can be as vibrant as any sub-dom male and can do the shaking dance (slightly different than a male mating dance but very similar shaking, i'm starting to learn to differentiate).


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## Ckac13 (Feb 24, 2009)

*** never had trouble spotting the holding females. Usually, when its feeding time, they all come out. So theyre easy to spot, theyre the ones making a mad rush for the food.... only to stare it down and go back to what they were doing.


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## cholile (Oct 28, 2007)

I wish I had suggestions for you. Instead, reading of your troubles (and others) in this thread now has me a bit worried.

In a few days I should have 15 demasoni and 8 yellow labs being delivered. They're all going into a 33G tank (48" x 12" x 12" - so basically a 55G without 40% of the height).

The tank has some THR that is spaced out throughout the tank.
The tank has 1 BN pleco.
The tank is well filtered and I have other tanks that I will take biofiltration from to ensure more than enough biofiltration to avoid cycling problems.

So I feel as thought I have examined all the possible problems and prepared as best as possible, yet it still sounds like I might have some difficulties.


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

hi everyone,

so I had a good look at the fish while feeding today & everyone seems to be eating (some more that others..!) however there was one Dem. who is now by far the smallest in the tank, he only at 1 or 2 very small bits of cichlid flake.

Also he does seem to be acting slightly differently to the other fish, he is swimming fine & not lurking at top of tank or near any fileter pipes, but he does seem to swim to th bogwood in the middle of the tank & just kind of perchhimself onto of it, he will stay there for 10-15 mins then have a bit of a swim before returning to the same position.

All the others seem content just swimming around & investigating their surroundings

any thoughts...?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i would pull him out if possible and qt him, observe him, male sure he's eating, check out his poop, etc


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

I dont have a 2nd tank, all I have is a small baox that floats inside the normal tank, but I think that is only for fry, should I try that as that's my only option..?


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

Cichlid New Boy said:


> I dont have a 2nd tank, all I have is a small baox that floats inside the normal tank, but I think that is only for fry, should I try that as that's my only option..?


yes this would work.
My demasoni all handle breeder boxes very well. Just put a piece of PVC pipe in there as a cave for him.


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## metro6775 (Sep 16, 2008)

My inhabitants have been cohabitating for 10 days now. I lost 3 more dems and 1 yellow lab.

The score:
12 dems - 5 confirmed deaths - Out of the 7 left I only saw 5 out eating tonight - bad omen. It seems like I get one dead every day to every other day. I'm not sure if I want to blow another $100 or try something different.

8 yellow labs - 3 confirmed deaths - The other 5 seem jolly. I really like these fish. They pay more attention to me than the demasoni. I can see how the term Yellow Lab applies, a play on their color/species and yellow lab dog. They kind of remind me of dogs.

I hope you don't mind that I am piggybacking on your thread since I seem to be having similar problems.

Solution so far was adding alot more rock so that my tank looks like one giant rock pile. It is not all that attractive to me, but if the fish are happy, then I am happy.

Tank parameters are 0/0/5 and I did a 25% water change last night when I added the rocks. The KH was at 13 drops to turn yellow so I think that is ok, maybe a little on the low end?

And I lost my light tonight - Current T5 HO endcap melted. It hasn't been 60 days so I am sending it back for a refund.


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## nauTik (Mar 18, 2009)

metro6775 said:


> Solution so far was adding alot more rock so that my tank looks like one giant rock pile. It is not all that attractive to me, but if the fish are happy, then I am happy.


sometimes it's not so much about the amount of rocks, but more so about how you set them up. I guess it depends on what type of rock you're using though.

For example with me I rearranged my lace rock after a tank cleaning and noticed I was having some more aggression problems weeks after (not just the normal reclaiming of new territories). Then I changed everything around to create more caves and such and it worked out much better.

I'm curious if some of you guys are just getting unlucky amounts of males in your dem colonys. :\


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

metro6775 said:


> My inhabitants have been cohabitating for 10 days now. I lost 3 more dems and 1 yellow lab.
> 
> The score:
> 12 dems - 5 confirmed deaths - Out of the 7 left I only saw 5 out eating tonight - bad omen. It seems like I get one dead every day to every other day. I'm not sure if I want to blow another $100 or try something different.
> ...


sorry for your losses metro.
When I was at the peak of my demasoni aggression issues, I had nipped fins on many dems, and have some yellow labs tails 20~30% ripped off. Some couldn't even swim properly due to large chunks of missing fins all over. One or two even developed sunken belly, and a few other might have showed signs of lacking interest in food.

it breaks my heart to seem them being bullied. I ended up isolating ALL of my yellow labs into a wide, shallow 20g. with only 8 juve yellow labs in 20g, they seem to have done well. after about 2 weeks of recovery, they all gained back the fins.

The demasoni have had the tank to themselves, and seems to be happier being alone in the tank.

After all the fishes were healthy and have regained their fighting spirit, i added more rocks, rearranged, and added all the labs back into the tank. I was really testing my luck to see if it would work, and somehow it did.

So I'm saying that if adding more rocks still don't work, you can cut your losses, and temporarily isolate them to their own tank. See if that would work.

*PS: yellow lab got its name from the species "labidochromis caeruleus". The first of its species to be found is BLUE thus the name caeruleus. But then a more popular variant was found, which is the YELLOW Labidochromis caelureus(blue), and so Yellow must be mentioned when specifying that its actually a Yellow labidochromis (blue), thus Yellow Lab.


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## emptyhead (Apr 16, 2007)

I have read quite a few posts about demasoni on this site and others. I have talked first hand with other demasoni owners. I kept and bred demasoni for the past 5 years before giving away my last group a couple of months ago. I kept them in 55g and 150g tanks.

IMO - These fish have to settle into a group. As they mature, one male will dominate and kill other fish until he is content with his group. There is not much you can do to change this.

It is best to start with as large a tank as possible and arrange the tank with as many hiding places as possible. Start with as large an initial group as possible within reason. (I did 24 for the 55g and 40 for the 150g.)

Remove weak, sickly looking, or dead fish. Remove any fish as soon as you see signs of abuse. Don't try to reintroduce them.

If you are adding to an existing group, it is best to add young juvenile fish (1") and in large numbers. If you want to add fish - my recommendation is to set up a grow out tank and grow out fry from your group as soon as you can (I used a 10g tank). Add the fry back to your main tank when your fry are around 1". Again, be ready, as they mature to remove fish that are not going to make it in your tank.

Eventually you should have a female heavy population that may or may not live together happily. Have fun!


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

Now i'm down to 11...!!

arrrrggghhhh..!...but I actually dont think it was the one I described above...will try to get that one in the breeder box tonight, problem is there is so much rock catching him is not easy..!


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

this is exactly why i don't think i'll ever do dems, it seems like you have to go through 20-30 fish to get 12, good luck man, if it's like *emptyhead* said and it just keeps going until the males get a group of fish they like, you might just have to keep adding to stay around 15 and how it settles out soon, maybe get 9 more and see how 20 works out. at the least you'll have a ways to go before you get below 12 again


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

yeah that's waht i'm thinking, but then how much cash will I burn through just to get some happy fish..!

by the way I've caught the one that looked slow & on close inspection he has been beat up pretty bad & is actually missing his left fin..!..will this actually grow back in time..?..he's now in the breeder box with 2 pellets of food (which he doesnt seem interested in).. os is there anything else I can do to help him..?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i'm not sure, it might depend on how bad it's beat up and how far down the fin is torn off.

as for care inside the main tank, not much you can do but maybe add salt to the tank and make sure the temp is just above 80 F, i wouldn't add medication to the whole tank to treat the one fish


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## metro6775 (Sep 16, 2008)

cjacob316 said:


> this is exactly why i don't think i'll ever do dems, it seems like you have to go through 20-30 fish to get 12, good luck man, if it's like *emptyhead* said and it just keeps going until the males get a group of fish they like, you might just have to keep adding to stay around 15 and how it settles out soon, maybe get 9 more and see how 20 works out. at the least you'll have a ways to go before you get below 12 again


I don't think I can run through 30 fish at $10 a piece. and then end up with 12. LOL


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

I don't think the magic number 12 always apply.
I think 12 is a bare minimum. you'll be pushing it even at 12.

I'm pretty sure many people who have had success with demasoni actually have 20 or so in the tank.


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## emptyhead (Apr 16, 2007)

metro6775 said:


> cjacob316 said:
> 
> 
> > this is exactly why i don't think i'll ever do dems, it seems like you have to go through 20-30 fish to get 12, good luck man, if it's like *emptyhead* said and it just keeps going until the males get a group of fish they like, you might just have to keep adding to stay around 15 and how it settles out soon, maybe get 9 more and see how 20 works out. at the least you'll have a ways to go before you get below 12 again
> ...


The females will hold quickly and often. Strip some fry and grow them out to add to your group.


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## nauTik (Mar 18, 2009)

Kabuto is very right. I've actually heard 15 mentioned as the magic number more anyways. But still, even if the magic number was 12, it would be wise to start with a much higher number just to be safe.

Although anything can work I guess with a little luck.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If the fin has not been removed completely into the flesh (and you can stop the attacks), it will grow back.

If you suspect your tank is a victim of an epidemic like bloat, you might want to treat the whole tank. Until you caught this fish though, we have not heard about any symptoms.

The problem with treating only the sick fish if you have a bloat epidemic, is that one fish may be showing symptoms while the other fish are incubating. The trick is to diagnose one, and then if perfectly healthy fish another gets sick/dies a couple weeks or a month later for no apparent reason...that is typical of bloat.

So I would treat this fish in a separate tank as if he has bloat. See if he improves. If he does then treat the tank.

Some of the recent Demasoni threads have not been typical of my experience. I did not burn through any Demasoni until after 8 months. At that point (sexual maturity) I did have a bloat epidemic, treated the sick ones with Clout and the tank with metronidazole. But I only lost 2-3 fish.

My inspiration, long-time successful Demasoni keepers like Joea and cichlidaholic, kept Demasoni for years and never had a death. I have not been able to achieve that.

I started off keeping 9 Dems because I was skeptical about 12 being the magic number. I increased the numbers of Demasoni and I've been fine since then.

I still get maybe one-two sub-dom males that become victims of harassment per year and have to be removed. But like emptyhead said, I put them in the hospital, let them heal for a couple weeks, and off to the LFS for store credit.

I've made a lot more in store credit returning the males than I ever spent on Demasoni. :thumb:


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## Dego510 (Mar 9, 2009)

I agree with Kabuto and Nautik . . . closer to 20 is best. I've had issues at even 12 and 15. Recently, I increased to 20 and everything is great. No torn fins at all!!! The demasoni range from 1" to adult. Once a chase is on, the chaser gets distracted by another demasoni. The more, the merrier applies to demasoni as well. 

I also do similar as DJRansome and remove the sub-dominant male. Sometimes even the dominant male. Another male steps up and is sometimes not as aggressive.

*** I must say, I have a back up plan . . . a 20 gallon with 10 1" demasoni growing out. If my number ever gets below 20 in my main tank, I send in my bench player(s). * * *


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yes I meant to add that. One thing is true, you need a hospital tank with Demasoni. IME.


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## SeanF1979 (Apr 12, 2009)

Interesting. I just got 16 fry Sunday I guess I'm in for a treat myself. I was hoping to put the 16 demasoni in a 75 with 4 or 5 yellow labs.


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

Suprise suprise..! the one I rescued into the breeder tank....has died.

I think he just took too much of a beating, plus his left fin was completly torn off.

so now i'm down to 10.... starting to think i'm not cut out for cichlids..!


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## metro6775 (Sep 16, 2008)

Cichlid New Boy said:


> so now i'm down to 10.... starting to think i'm not cut out for cichlids..!


I don't think it is cichlids in general, just demasoni. I swear, each day I see one less out to feed. Today I saw 3 feeding but no floaters. I have so many rocks now that they may be somewhere in the rocks. The labs are doing fine though.


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

Its really weird that your fish stop coming out to feed. Doesn't sound like merely aggression issues there.

New fish in the tank (less than 2 weeks) won't be brave enough to come out when you feed, it is understandable. But if you say they stopped coming out("less one"), meaning they used to come out and now they dont. That would be indicative of a widespread bloat.
See if they feed when you walk away and hide in a corner. See if they come out to investigate what all the splattering and rush from the other fish is all about. If they come out, and see food, and yet don't eat, then its really bad. If they come out ,see food on the floor, and then eat, it just means they are skittish due to recent changes in your tank.

Fish suffering from aggression show different symptom from fish suffering from sickness or bloat. I don't know how accurate my observation has been, but others please chip in.
I observe the following:

Bloat / Sunken belly:
- Loss of appitite.
- No injured fins early on. They will show injured fins after being sick several days due to being picked on after getting sick.
- hide alot. Not around the edges, but normally among rocks. Won't come out to feed.
- Swims funny, like swaying the whole body instead of using its tail.
- If it is hovering around, it will not run away as quickly when you approach the tank. (compared to merely aggression issues)

Aggression:
- Will hover around edges of the tank, and away from rocks which they prefer. 
- Will run away very quickly into the rocky areas as soon as you show yourself in the room.
- Will often present itself with lots of nipped fins.
- Will come out to feed (if not yet sick due to prolonged stress, which could take days ~ weeks to develop)

If you observe your fish daily, you should be able to spot the difference.
I'm starting to think it might not be simply aggression for metro's case since he added alot of rocks.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i have lost fish before, and i can honestly say none have ever floated, especially my dem, he wedged himself into some decor and i had to remove everything to find him. just because no one is floating, doesn't mean they aren't dead


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## misterted (Sep 12, 2003)

This is a very interesting thread. I keep Demasoni and the first thing I noticed is they don't care about any other species in the tank. However, they will absolutely obliterate eachother on a regular basis.

I don't agree at all with removing rockwork. The more rocks the better. Im also pretty sure that sickness is not your problem. Demasoni typically do this. You have one male in there that is knocking off all the other males. It will settle down but I also believe that overcrowding is key. If you simply don't have enough fish in the tank then you may only end up with one Demasoni.

I would remove all rocks while leaving the fish in there. Add more fish, Demasoni and another species. Let them mix it up for a few days without rockwork so they get to know eachother. Then add a lot of rocks, lots of caves, lots of hiding places. Then it should be OK.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

the tank may not have been crowded enough, since you only had labs and dems, you might have needed closer to 20 dems to take that space up


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

So should I look into purchasing another 10 dems..?

Origianlly when I was first looking into getting cichlids advice on this forum suggested that more than 20 fish would be too much for my 50g.

At the moment I have 5 labs, 10 dems, & 1 BN plec...


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

What are the dimensions of your 50G?


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

aquarium size is 120cm long x 40cm wide x 55cm so 3.93 ft


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i mean 15 4-6 inch fish is normal for a 55, your tank isn't much smaller in dimensions compared to a 55, so 20 dems would be close to 10 normal sized fish in stocking, as long as you keep up with water changes (at least 50% a week) good filtration, you should be fine imo, and your dem situation may improve

at this point, since you're down to 10, it's either buy another 10 and take the chance, or get rid of them all and find some other species


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

cjacob316 said:


> at this point, since you're down to 10, it's either buy another 10 and take the chance, or get rid of them all and find some other species


Although I haven't kept Dems myself, this advice seems to ring true based on many, many threads that I have read on Demasoni numbers. Try a search for Demasoni AND aggression - you'll get 2,010 hits on this site. It seems very common that once numbers drop below 10-12, they will continue to drop over the course of a month or two until there is just one left.

So you should start thinking if you want to tough it out with Dems and buy another ~8-10, or perhaps return them all and trade them in for a more forgiving species.


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## SeanF1979 (Apr 12, 2009)

I agree with cjacob316, and Kanorin. If you really like the dwarf species and want something that looks close to the Demasoni then I would go with Saulosi. In a 50 gallon you will be able to get 3 males easy and the rest females or more males if you want. They are another great looking dwarf that doesn't have much aggression at all. They don't have as much black as the Demasoni and their blue isn't as dark, but great looking fish none the less. The females also have great color and some owners like them better then the males. Here is a link.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1


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## misterted (Sep 12, 2003)

Agreed, get more and redo the rocks. Do NOT add the fish without reworking the rocks.


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

So if I do buy another 10

Does anyone else think I should remove 90% of the rock, so they do get used to each other & then build the rock up from there..?


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## justinf67 (Jul 19, 2009)

Kanorin said:


> cjacob316 said:
> 
> 
> > at this point, since you're down to 10, it's either buy another 10 and take the chance, or get rid of them all and find some other species
> ...


I disagree. I have kept dems for a while and I started with 13 originally. One dom male and 12 subadults. The dom male died when he got stuck in a rock, no aggression. After he died, I had quite a bit of aggression for about a month or so. They had to re-establish a new pecking order. I lost 3 during this time. But, they seemed to be the weakest of them all by far. Since then, I have rehomed 2 males as they have grown up, even without much aggression. I was at 8 dems for almost a year I would say with no deaths and these were pretty grown dems. I added 12 juvies to the mix and moved one more male, so I now have 11 juvies(one didnt make it) and 7 3''+. One dom male and one subdom for sure. Only issue is the subdom hides occationally. Nothing serious, but I plan to rehome him soon. Point is, I think male to female ratio is important to an extent as they grow up males are less tolerant, and the weak ones will fall in a power struggle...


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## metro6775 (Sep 16, 2008)

Found another one today just sitting in a corner. His days (hours) are numbered. After reading more forums on demasoni I have come to the conclusion that it may be bloat caused by stress of not being the dominant male. The dominant male is doing fantastic. And out of 12 I think I only got like 2 females, or at least two that were not nearly as colorful as the others. I think I just had bad luck. Anyway it is too costly for me to by 20 more fish when they cost $10 a piece and then not even guaranteed any will live. So I will probably take out all the rock, catch the remaining 3-4 dems that I have left and take them to the pet store for credit and buy a different species.

And I just call dead fish floaters. It is just a generic term I use and all my dead dems were stuck in the rocks while my three dead yellow labs were stuck to the filter intake.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

oh man you got something bad going on, you sure it's just bloat?


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

metro6775 said:


> Found another one today just sitting in a corner. His days (hours) are numbered. After reading more forums on demasoni I have come to the conclusion that it may be bloat caused by stress of not being the dominant male. The dominant male is doing fantastic. And out of 12 I think I only got like 2 females, or at least two that were not nearly as colorful as the others. I think I just had bad luck. Anyway it is too costly for me to by 20 more fish when they cost $10 a piece and then not even guaranteed any will live. So I will probably take out all the rock, catch the remaining 3-4 dems that I have left and take them to the pet store for credit and buy a different species.
> 
> And I just call dead fish floaters. It is just a generic term I use and all my dead dems were stuck in the rocks while my three dead yellow labs were stuck to the filter intake.


From your last 2 posts, *** been thinking that yours might not be merely aggression issue.
Really sound like you have a widespread bloat, or a water issues.

Once again, color cannot be used to identify male/female. There is no sure way to tell. I know 2 of my females in my tank which are among the most nicely colored dems in the tank only behind the 2 dominant males in the tank.


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

Cichlid New Boy said:


> So if I do buy another 10
> 
> Does anyone else think I should remove 90% of the rock, so they do get used to each other & then build the rock up from there..?


Don't know about no rockwork. but according to advice i've heard, if you wanna remove rockwork, take away all of it, and no i have not heard about slowly adding rocks. Can't imagine that would do good...

I would personally ADD more rock work then immediately add in the additional 10 dems after.
20 young demasoni in your tank dimension would be a good number IMO. Keep the yellow labs at 5 is fine too.

This time, make sure you watch and isolate any fish who seem weak / sickly without delay. Get either a breeder bucket (with a pvc pipe in it for cover), or a hospital tank so you can administer treatment when required. After healed, try to vent it to see if its a female. IF its female, i would try to reintroduce to the main tank, if its a male, i'd take it to the LFS. I have two males(ithink) which are too small to vent accurately, so i'm growing them out separately for a few months before i re-vent and decide what to do with it. After a some time, the number will go down from 20 to 15 or so and hopefully things would work out in the longer run.

On the topic of meds: Some people say "jumping straight to meds is bad" but nothing is worse than a dead fish. So if you suspect any fish is having bloat, just isolate and treat. Metronidazole have no side-effects on breeding or bacteria colony and is the most commonly used med for bloat/sunken belly. So store up some of that.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

kabuto said:


> I would personally ADD more rock work then immediately add in the additional 10 dems after.


Me too.



kabuto said:


> Some people say "jumping straight to meds is bad".


I don't think it's still considered jumping after two or more deaths. The problem is OP says there are absolutely no symptoms.

I would not add fish until the illness is cured. I would closely observe the fish until I identified some symptoms. If it is bloat, even if you remove an ill fish the next victim can be incubating. Also the victims shed the bloat organism into the tank and you need to eradicate it or the new fish will just continue the epidemic.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

the reason i don't condone just chucking meds at a tank, is because people on this site are continuously telling people to use meds before the op ever really tells you anything except that the fish are dieing, you can't just assume the deaths are straight from disease without having symptoms other than death, and generally with something like bloat, you at least get to the bloated part before death, which can come a while after they stop eating, but they will always stop eating first.

it seems like if the op says i don't see aggression, everyone assumes disease, when the fact is that the op just fails to witness aggression most of the time, i mean you saw him say that once he pulled the dem out he realized how torn up he was. they may get bloat after they are stressed from aggression, but you have to solve the cause too, not just medicate the disease, treating diseases that occur from bad water conditions does nothing if you don't fix the water conditions.

my point though is that you need more information to suggest treatments. i notice eating issues long before i notice aggression because i'm always in front of the tank when i feed, so that's why i tend to think aggression, because most everything else i'd see first. just get the facts before you suggest something like putting chemicals into a tank.

btw we now have two people with dem tanks on this thread talkng about issues, so i'm lost as to which one dj was referring to


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

aaarrrgggghhhh

another one found dead today... now down to 9....


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

are they visibly beat up, are they all eating when you feed them?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

are they gasping at the surface?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

In my experience, fish (mbuna) don't die purely from aggression. The aggression causes stress which causes illness. And for me the illness has always been bloat.

Your experience may vary.:thumb: :lol:


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

Cichlid New Boy said:


> aaarrrgggghhhh
> 
> another one found dead today... now down to 9....


If you want to make this work in the long run, and keep demasoni,....
maybe some pics and a more detailed description of what you see day to day would help us throw in more opinions?


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

Will try to get some photo's if anymore fish die...

but as for the ones so far,...some have had signs of agression (loss of fins, nipped fins, etc) but some seem perfectly fine.

What are the main signs of bloat...?

Also I spoke to my breeder yesterday about the possibility of adding in another 11 dems & he said he also think I should add in another species that is also fairly agressive to help limi the agressiveness of the dems... he said he would put in a victorian - hippo point salmon or something similar...

What are people's thoughts on that...?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Cichlid New Boy said:


> What are the main signs of bloat...?


Breathing hard. Lurking either at the bottom or the surface. Not eating or eating less or spitting out the food. You may have swelling or emaciation or neither. White thready poop. But by the time you have swelling and/or white thready poop if the fish is also not eating, it may be too late to save the fish.



Cichlid New Boy said:


> Also I spoke to my breeder yesterday about the possibility of adding in another 11 dems & he said he also think I should add in another species that is also fairly agressive to help limi the agressiveness of the dems... he said he would put in a victorian - hippo point salmon or something similar...
> 
> What are people's thoughts on that...?


I think he is trying to sell fish, LOL. Since Demasoni are aggressive among themselves they usually ignore other species.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

if you notice any fish that don't charge for the food with the rest, those are the first ones to start observing closely. i think you're still going to have problems until you can get your numbers up, even if it is something like bloat that's actually killing them. if it's aggression ultimately leading to the bloat, you won't be able to cure the bloat without solving the aggression.

i agree that by the time they swell it's possibly too late, though i have had a fish survive with only one metro dose after it reached that point. i believe it was bloat that killed my single dem way back when, he was always breathing really hard hiding inside some decor never coming out and rarely eating if ever, i never saw the swelling before he died though which is why at the time i never thought it was bloat because i was young in the hobby and thought they had to swell to be bloat.


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

Ok looks like I will be getting my next batch of dems this weekend.

What do people recommend to help them settle...?

I do like the idea of taking all the rock out for a week or so to let them get aquainted & then build the rock up fully so they can then all sort their territories


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

Cichlid New Boy said:


> I do like the idea of taking all the rock out for a week or so to let them get aquainted & then build the rock up fully so they can then all sort their territories


gulp. Taking away all the protection and cover....

Make sure you watch them when all the rocks are out. I've never had the nerve to try it... but would really like to know if it works. keep us up to date. 

My choice of helping them settle would be to rearrange rocks, put in fish immediately after, and feed them very soon after as well, and keep the lights off after that.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i have seen people do this and it work, you don't take away hiding places as much as you take away territories, no territories to claim, less aggression.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

What will prevent the new fish from contracting this illness you have in your tank?


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## Dj823cichild (Mar 30, 2009)

I remember these days DJRansome :-?


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## nauTik (Mar 18, 2009)

Cichlid New Boy said:


> Ok looks like I will be getting my next batch of dems this weekend.
> 
> What do people recommend to help them settle...?
> 
> I do like the idea of taking all the rock out for a week or so to let them get aquainted & then build the rock up fully so they can then all sort their territories


If I were you I'd try to be sure that my fish were disease free before I added new fish. Otherwise, you may continue to have more and more deaths.

Just my opinion.


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

Ok...

I didnt realise bloat was contagious..?

Is it easy for the other fish to catch...?

What can I do to get rid of it from the tank..?

From the response on here I thought it was more a stress related illness.

I think there are 2 dems that possibly have bloat one is now in the breeder box, but is refusing to eat, the other is still out in the tank as I thought the box would be too small for 2 dems.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

No matter what is going on, if it is an illness (which seems likely since perfect fish are dying) you want to be sure it's over before you add fish. I'd try to wait three weeks without deaths at least.

Stress related illnesses are still illnesses. Yes bloat is contagious. That's why it tends to spread through a tank like you are experiencing, sickening one fish at a time.

The best way to eradicate an illness is observe, isolate and treat symptoms.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

so you have noticed fish not eating? if that's the case then metro is a good way to treat bloat.

i personally treated my whole tank when i had issues (two lately) with no ill effects to my tank. I used jungle labs parasite clear. the first tank it took one dose, the second tank took two doses. if you have a good bit of rock, i think one box can provide two doses in your tank, the other options is to remove all the rock so you can see your fish while you're treating the tank and treat for closer to the tank volume, in that case i'd get two boxes. follow the instructions well. it took a few days after my second dose for some of the fish to start swimming around and eating more so don't get to anxious.

now this was my experience and others will do different things. i know a lot of people suggest isolating an treating only the sick fish, but if it's spreading that fast, i don't see how that could work.

my only worry is that the aggression may be high in those weeks you're waiting to make sure the bloat is gone before adding fish, and it will just come back. How do you solve a disease without solving the primary cause?

you can treat tuberculosis all you want, but until you stop crapping into your water source you're never going to solve the problem


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## nauTik (Mar 18, 2009)

cjacob316 said:


> my only worry is that the aggression may be high in those weeks you're waiting to make sure the bloat is gone before adding fish, and it will just come back. How do you solve a disease without solving the primary cause?


very good point


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

I was one of the votes for adding more Demasoni to bring your total to about 18-20, but I agree with DJRansome and Cjacob in that you need to treat any illnesses that are in your tank BEFORE you add more fish.

One issue is that you haven't positively confirmed the existence of an illness. Many members are suspecting (from being in similar circumstances) that you may have an outbreak of bloat and I tend to agree. Still, it would make all of us more comfortable directing you to aggressive anti-bloat medications if you were to observe more of the classic symptoms (stringy white feces, bloated belly). This is a good article on Bloat.

Unfortunately, I suspect that in your tank, early bloat victims may be quickly becoming victims of aggression and the combo of stress + illness is taking them down fast (maybe even before symptoms are apparent). I suggest turning your tank lights totally off for at least a week and if your temperature is 80 deg or higher, turn it down a degree or two. This should reduce overall activity and aggression slightly. Another option is to put the dominant male in timeout for a few days.

In your case, I think a tank-wide administration of meds is necessary (for whatever illness is present). I'd bet that all of your fish have been exposed to whatever pathogen is contributing to their death and that those with weak immune systems (caused by stress from aggression) are the ones succumbing to full-blown infection.


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

Ok, well I have only got the breeder box to isolate fish so I will have to treat the tank as a whole.

Does anyone know if the ''jungle labs parasite clear'' is available in the uk..? or if it goes undera different name, i've done a search on google but not sure if i'm coming up with the right thing


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

oh i dunno, that's the one they sell at walmart and it's cheap, and imo it's not as rough on your system as clout (another choice), also look for straight metro itself


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

I use metronidazole.
Also sold as Flagly and some other names, just google it up.

Someone warned me not to get di-metronidazole as it is much stronger, and has side-effects. I don't know more than that. But just steer clear and make sure u get the right stuff.


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

now down to 8....

still can;t find those meds on-line, will go to the LFS this weekend & see what they suggest...

hopefully I can treat before more die...


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

very sorry for your losses.
I think you should get meds asap.

Don't just take anything shop recommends. they normally don't know enough.
For bloat, stick to jungle parasite, metronidazole, and clout.


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## theswede (Oct 5, 2009)

Cichlid New Boy said:


> now down to 8....
> 
> still can;t find those meds on-line, will go to the LFS this weekend & see what they suggest...
> 
> hopefully I can treat before more die...


Sorry to hear about your problems. Dems are as sensitive as Tropheus when it comes to bloat. For bloat I would use Octozin.


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## nauTik (Mar 18, 2009)

Cichlid New Boy said:


> now down to 8....
> 
> still can;t find those meds on-line, will go to the LFS this weekend & see what they suggest...
> 
> hopefully I can treat before more die...


man that's rough :[ Gotta admit I'm impressed that you're still interested in keeping dems though, by now I would have thrown them all in a hospital tank and started over with different fish haha.


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

Bad day today.....

Decided to remove all rocks etc from the tank to try to limit the agression only to find out I've had more deaths that I first thought..!

From 15 dems & 5 yellow labs, i'm now down to 4 dems & 4 labs..!!!!

i'm gutted....not sure if to keep on & add more dems or just to try to get rid & start over with something less agressive.....

at the moment i'm just :-? :-? :-?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Nothing to lose by trying the bloat medications. As mentioned, I have never had a fish killed directly from aggression and once bloat infected the tank I've never had it stop without medicating.

Maybe try the illness forum on what is available in the UK.


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

Ok, got some meds & LFS has recommended I remove the carbon sponge from my filter...

however after getting home & looking into my filter it doesnt look like I have a carbon sponge..?

I have an Eheim 2324, which only has a blue filter pad, a white filter pad, small ceramic peices & also small balls (which look like coco rocks cereal) but not sure if any of these are carbon..?

hopefully someone else has the same/similar filter & can shed some light

thanks


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

No carbon (it would be black). Go ahead with the meds.


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

hope the rest of them pull through.

btw what meds did you get from LFS?


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

They didn't have any of the ones recommended on here, but the guy at LFS sold me some meds called ''anti internal bacteria'' which he assures me is meant for bloat, he also got me some salts to be added at the same time.

To be fair since I removed all the rock all the fish seem better & i've seen no agression at all... no comes the big decision whether to carry on with dems & labs or try something else


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

I would wait to see what happens after treatment.
If your treatment solved the problem, then you might want to repopulate and carry on. This time with meds ready in case anything goes bad. 
My Demasoni/Yellow lab tank went through a 1.5week long metro treatment in the first 3 weeks. I thought i was being paranoid, but i guess i did the right thing.

If the treatment doesn't do anything for your fish, and you keep losing them, then its hard to encourage you to carry on demasoni (cos if they start dying again, you are back to square one).

so lets wait to see what happens.

once again, good luck.


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

thanks for all your help so far guys....

one thing i have noticed now I have removed all the rocks is that 80% of their time the fish are just sat on the gravel at the bottom of the tank...sometimes it looks like they arn't even breathing..!!

they seem happy enough but just look kind of bored..!!...do fish get bored...??


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

No they are probably a little traumatized by the change.


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

ok, they seem to liven up a bit when the lights go out, so maybe they are just missing their rocks & caves..!


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

is the active ingredient metronidazole? if so then it should work


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

Cichlid New Boy said:


> thanks for all your help so far guys....
> 
> one thing i have noticed now I have removed all the rocks is that 80% of their time the fish are just sat on the gravel at the bottom of the tank...sometimes it looks like they arn't even breathing..!!
> 
> they seem happy enough but just look kind of bored..!!...do fish get bored...??


lol, they must have gone
"gee,... look what we've done to this place. All that killing and murder,... I guess God must have decided to punish our abominable act by banishing us to a desert seabed where there are no caves or rocks to fight and kill over. This must be h-e-l-l! are we dead? :'( "


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## whatupcichlids (Apr 12, 2010)

kabuto said:


> Cichlid New Boy said:
> 
> 
> > thanks for all your help so far guys....
> ...


My fish sometimes say that


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

just checked the meds & the ingredients are:

Bronopol
Formaldehyde
Benzalkonium chloride

:-?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

return it and find soemthing with metro in it, look at eveyrthing if you have to, but you want to mainly focus on parasite meds


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I think metronidazole is illegal in the UK. Better to try what was recommended.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

oh, well that sucks


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

Does anyone fancy sending some over for me..? I can sort you some cash out via paypal..?

For the time being i'll carry on with what i've got.


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## solgood (Sep 23, 2009)

Cichlid New Boy said:


> Does anyone fancy sending some over for me..? I can sort you some cash out via paypal..?
> 
> For the time being i'll carry on with what i've got.


I have a bunch of it. But im not sure if it will make it thru custumes.


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

Yeah not sure if it would get through or not.... i'm guessing they dont have sniffer dogs trained to sniff out fish medication...

but if the active chemical can be used in something else (i.e bomb making) we could have a problem..!

Up to you though, or has anybody else got any other ideas or is there any uk readers that have had a similar issue..?


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

Hopefully the bloat will be gone soon, which turns my attention to what I should do in terms of replacing the lost fish....

I was maybe thinking of adding in some colbalt blue zebras and some more yellow labs...will they be ok in with 4 demasoni & the yellow labs...?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

should either get rid of the dems first or get more, but don't leave them as is

you do however need to wait a while to make sure any and all diseases are gone


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

Will the dems cause problems for the zebras then...?

Ideally I would like to keep the 4 dems I have left, strange as it sounds the remaining 4 seem kind of happy together...although they are still in a rockless tank..!


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## solgood (Sep 23, 2009)

you have 4 fish. drain the tank and start over. let all things that come in contact with water dry out for 2 or 3 days "this u must do". Then start over.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would just wait four weeks with no deaths and then restock. Four dems usually ends in one dem. Unless maybe you have all females left, LOL.


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

Or maybe you can try, and let us know 
Never know what might or might not work out.

*Although Ransome is proabably correct about 1 left, you can always rescue the rest if it turns ugly again. Or just leave it to "survival of the fittest" and you can proudly tell others that this one demasoni is the reincarnation of the devil himself, killed all 11 siblings to claim the tank.*


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

Well I would like to try my luck with keeping the dems, & i guess it will be a case of survivial of the fittest..!

Also I currently have 8 fish in the tank (4 dems & 4 labs)

If they do fight till only 1 remains, will 1 dem be ok in with a few labs & blue cobalt zebras..?

is there any agression issues between those 3 fish...?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

No aggression, but the lone demasoni will crossbreed with the others.


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

Ok so will the demasoni just breed with anything..? or is it the blue colbalt zebra in particular..?


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## bearded lab (Apr 28, 2010)

Cool! A single demasoni is okay. By no aggression do you mean placid, or just not nasty?


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

Well i'm not down to a single dem yet, but I do only have 4 left, so most peoples opinion is that agression will kill 3 of the 4 & leave me with a single dem in the tank.

What I am hoping to do is add in some further labs & another species, and hopefully keep a bit more of a peaceful tank.

Is this likely..?

will a single dem still terrorize other species if he doesnt have his own to pick on..?

Also what would people reccomend me to get to go alongside the labs..? my tank has crushed coral for substrate & a light coloured background & also loads of ocean rock, so a dark coloured cichlid would be preferred (or at least one that stands out from white..!)


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The single Demasoni will try to breed with any mouthbrooder female that may be in the tank. As will any mbuna that has no mates of the appropriate species available.

He will likely have to fight with the male that belongs to whatever female he chooses, but aggression might not be much of a problem with labs for example, cause the Demasoni will win.

You could try Maingano if you like the blue/black of Demasoni.


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

Thanks for the advice, I prefer the vertical striped fish is there another similar to demasoni that isnt as agressive..?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

There is no other barred fish with that brilliant blue and monomorphic females.


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

DJRansome said:


> There is no other barred fish with that brilliant blue and monomorphic females.


what about the giant demasoni?
Metriaclima sp. "dolphin" (Ndonga)


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

oh ok.....
well the giant demasoni sounds like it could get too big for my tank..

so I might give it another go with the normal dems & labs, but start off at a larger number than before,...

I have a 4ft /50g tank & advice on here suggested I start out with 20 fish 15 dems/5 labs... which i've obviously had some trouble with.

However the LFS said I could get away with 30 fish in a 50g, he said it will be overstocked, but rather that than dead fish every few days...

it may look like he was in for the hard sell, but he knows I get all my fish from a private breeder...

30 fish..!.. whats your thoughts..?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You have 6-8 months until they mature. Thirty one-inch fish will not be a problem. And if all goes according to the usual Demasoni development track, you will need to remove males anyway after that time.

Lots of rocks and a hospital tank. Spend time watching your fish daily and observe eating, pooping and lurking. Remove any lurkers after two or three days and take them to the LFS.

I know there have been a couple of threads recently when the juvies have had aggression/illness problems, but I think that is the exception and they are usually fine until sexual maturity. I raised mine in a 36" tank initially and as juvies no one got sick.


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## Cichlid New Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

So apart from the highly agressive behaviour, how else can you tell the males from the females..?

at the moment i have 4 dems in the tank, & 1 has the most strong colouring then another has slightly less strong colouring & 2 others look very washed out (can hardly see the blue bars etc)

are the washed out ones likely to be the females..?


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## justinf67 (Jul 19, 2009)

U cant tell. the washed out ones could be males that are being bullied... when they get larger, the males tend be be noticeably bigger. Until that point though its impossible to tell.. I've kept dems for a while and only in the beginning did I have any issues and that was only the weaker few. Heck I had 7 dems working out for quite a while and they were close to adulthood. I currently have 17(6 adults and 11 juvies)

I honestly think u had a bully who went to war and u ended up with bloat. Excess males fighting stressed everyone out


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

Cichlid New Boy said:


> So apart from the highly agressive behaviour, how else can you tell the males from the females..?
> 
> at the moment i have 4 dems in the tank, & 1 has the most strong colouring then another has slightly less strong colouring & 2 others look very washed out (can hardly see the blue bars etc)
> 
> are the washed out ones likely to be the females..?


You can only identify a single dominant male via aggression.
No way you can tell the other subdominant fish via aggression.

The best way i learned is to wait till they get larger, and wait till the hold, which happens at a very early age. 1.25inch female can and will hold.

I've identified 4 males via mating behaviour and 5 females by seeing them hold.
Of these fishes, I can also see that the end of their dorsal and anal fin are slightly different.
If there has been no damage, i can see the females having rounded edges to both dorsal and anal fin, while males have pointed edge.
Egg spots are completely unreliable as one of my female has a large eggspot.

In my tank, males also grow faster than females. Much faster.
I got 4 males approaching 2.5 inch.
All my females so far are below 1.5 inch.

I tried to vent the larger fishes, and i can say demasoni is one of the harder fishes to vent. Male/female vents are very similar and the black pigmentation means u need good magnificantion and lighting to see properly. very hard to tell.

At full adult size(around 1.5yr old i think), you can see female/male via size.

*on the note of coloration. I have found that my females get EXTREMELY washed out when they are lowest in the pecking order. Their bars would completely disappear. yes disappear and you can't see bars at all. Males tend to mantain some color. 
However, I have a female which has very strong coloration all the time. 
Sooooooooooooooooooo i would say color is very unreliable way to tell sex.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If you just remove the "victim fish" then it doesn't really matter what gender they are. But I'm pretty sure mine are sub-dom males because they are invariably the larger fish.


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