# Eretmodus -last one, can s/he be happy alone?



## madison_cichlid_mom (Aug 13, 2017)

Until yesterday I had 2 Eretmodus marksmithiis, not paired, in a 90 gallon community tank, (tankmates are Cyps, Synodontis cats, 4 small Calvuses and a couple of small plecos) where one was clearly the alpha and the other hid most of the time. The bullied one recently spent a day or so hanging out in the front of the tank, sitting in a plastic plant, and although he nibbled at some food he wasn't very hungry. I found him dead yesterday morning.

Sadly, I realized too late that my tank had gotten unbalanced somehow (possibly do to overfeeding or stupid neglect) and although my ammonia and nitrates were zero my nitrates were at least 80. Everybody else in the tank is perfectly fine (even before two consecutive 30% changes in the past couple days) but at this point I want to start tearing down the tank and dealing with the possible causes of the nitrate bloom which could be anaerobic pockets in the pool filter sand that I have as a substrate. It doesn't help that I added nine nerite snails before I discovered my nitrate problem and now I can't find six of them which worries me that they're dead and contributing even more to the problem .

I fear that my Eretmodus was already stressed by a tank rearrangement I did about 10 days ago and the nitrate was too much for him, The night before he died he seem to be breathing a little bit faster than normal.

Anyway while I'm dealing with the nitrates I want to move the remaining Eretmodus to a 12 gallon tank that I used to use for quarantine, and I'm thinking I might just keep them there along with maybe a couple Cyps and/or a small Synodondtis.

I'm hesitant to do anything to stress my remaining one out any further but I also want him to be safe and healthy. The other fish can get scooped out into a bucket and they'll survive for the few hours it takes for me to get this done and put everyone back but after losing one this week I don't want to take any chances with the last one due to stress.

I guess my question is assuming he survives the move to the 12 gallon tank, can he be happy by himself in a little tank like that? It's not like he's a schooling fish with everybody else and he hated his other tankmate so it seems like this is the safest option.

Thanks in advance for any advice.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

No way would I keep a goby in a 12g tank. I'm not sure if I read it right but, are you saying that you might keep the cyps in there as well?
He should be fine in a 90g without a mate though. I have found that gobies completely ignore all other types of fish so it's not that he hates his tankmates and he wouldn't school with other fish (gobies included) anyway.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

I would just increase your water change percentage OR do 25% changes every other day to reduce the nitrates. Don't forget to also do maintenance on your filter to remove debris as gunk does get trapped in the media and that will contribute to higher nitrate levels.

What brand and model filters are you using on this tank?

I don't see a need to move any fish at this time including the Eretmodus, it should be fine as a singleton in the tank.


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## madison_cichlid_mom (Aug 13, 2017)

Thanks, the idea of hauling him out and putting in smaller tank was really a last resort. And I would have put one or two cyps in there, not all of them.

I have a Aqueon 75 HOB, a Marineland C-360 canister and also a Marineland Magnum 350 to which I attached a dual head biowheel (from a previous HOB). I have admittedly been a bit lax with the C-360, it is very heavy and I don't pull it apart and wash/replace filters nearly as often as the others. I disconnected it today because I have been reading on this forum that Bio Balls and Ceramic rings *might* be nitrate factories if left alone to their own devices. Never considered that. Another mistake that should not have happened. I also pulled almost all the plastic plants out - they do nothing except collect mulm at their bases and in their fake leaves.

The Matrix arrives tomorrow (500 ml) and I'll pull the C-360 apart then and toss the bioballs and keep the rings (after rinsing them well in tank water). Or maybe I'll rinse the bioballs and put in "The Bag" and wedge into the back of the Aqueon for an extra oomph (although that is where I was going to put the Purigen after the NO3 is down, so I can keep an eye on the color). In the meantime I stuffed a few Algones into the Aqueon - I assume they can coexist with the Matrix?

Seachem says mechanical --> chemical --> biological so not sure whether to put the Matrix at the top or the rings up there, since I'll have biological x2.

The nitrates seem to be coming down gradually, I did 3rd 40% today (math was off in the first post, mostly because I remeasured my tank today and it is not a 90, it is a 75, at one point I knew that but kept calling it a 90) but now have more buckets for a bigger change (I fill 5G buckets the day before, plop 25W heaters in them, and then use that for the fill water after Pythoning the old out. I use the Magnum 350 to siphon out of the buckets and it goes in gently through the system and out past the biowheels. Prime and Tang salt/buffers are added before the siphon begins, as well as Stress Coat.) Very little disruption for the residents.

Yes, I have read that Purigen & Stress coat is a lethal combo *if you are regenerating the Purigen* - I am not doing that. Fresh bag. I will be happy to be corrected if even a fresh bag & Stress Coat is bad.

Thanks all for the responses, I feel terrible that my once well kept tank got out of whack due to some stuff that I was dealing with recently. I generally think of my fish as my kids, and the fact that the cyps are constantly breeding and and cats and calvuses are fine masked the fact that my poor eretmodus might have been struggling with the water (plus being chased all the time).

I can say at least that I have never made the same fish-keeping mistake twice, so I *can* learn from my mistakes, but I am sad that some of my fish have suffered due to my carelessness.

Still haven't located several of the nerites, but the 3-4 I saw were happily glued to rocks/glass/wood. Tank smells fine.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

madison_cichlid_mom said:


> Thanks, the idea of hauling him out and putting in smaller tank was really a last resort. And I would have put one or two cyps in there, not all of them.


I hope everything works out for you. We've all gone through similar in the past.

Just for future reference, Cyps need a min. 48" long tank. And that is providing that they are reg. Cyp. Leptosoma and not Jumbo Cyps. They need a 5' - 6' tank.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

What are you hoping to achieve with the matrix? Bio balls certainly can be nitrates factories if they're used in a wet dry system and are really better suited for saltwater systems where skimmers are used to remove a lot of the free proteins in the water. Ceramic rings are an excellent biological media but must be shaken out when cleaning the filter to remove any sludge in them. Matrix works well as a biological media also but terrible at removing nitrates if used in a canister filter. I've got two matrix/de*nitrate reactors with less than 50gph flow through them and it works well in that aspect but did absolutely nothing in the filter.


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## madison_cichlid_mom (Aug 13, 2017)

Huh, I didn't know that about Matrix, Seachem talks about de*nitrate needing a <50 GPH flow rate but never said that about Matrix. I was reading about Matrix on the Equipment & Supplies forum and most folks said it was fine in the canister.

I'm hoping to achieve 20 ppm or less nitrates in the absence of doing huge daily water changes, which is where I am right now due to my carelessness.

I guess I'll find out how it works in a canister.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

How many filters are you running? If you're only running one, I absolutely would not recommend replacing the biological media unless you want another problem on your hands.


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## madison_cichlid_mom (Aug 13, 2017)

noddy said:


> madison_cichlid_mom said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks, the idea of hauling him out and putting in smaller tank was really a last resort. And I would have put one or two cyps in there, not all of them.
> ...


They are regular leptosoma.


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## madison_cichlid_mom (Aug 13, 2017)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> How many filters are you running? If you're only running one, I absolutely would not recommend replacing the biological media unless you want another problem on your hands.


3

400 GPH HOB Aqueon
360 GPH Marineland C-360 canister
350 GPH Marineland Magnum 350

By my calculations, I am at 15x changes per hour.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Okay, that could actually be part of the reason why you have such high nitrates all the time. Contrary to popular belief, over filtration can actually be detrimental in the sense that it's too efficient at processing waste thus pumping out nitrates at a higher rate than would be produced at an 8-10x rate. Just replace the biomedia with matrix in one filter at time so you don't kill off too much BB


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## madison_cichlid_mom (Aug 13, 2017)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> Okay, that could actually be part of the reason why you have such high nitrates all the time. Contrary to popular belief, over filtration can actually be detrimental in the sense that it's too efficient at processing waste thus pumping out nitrates at a higher rate than would be produced at an 8-10x rate. Just replace the biomedia with matrix in one filter at time so you don't kill off too much BB


I was only going to put it in the C-360 in place of the bioballs.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Well in that case the matrix will be a far superior biomedia.


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## madison_cichlid_mom (Aug 13, 2017)

That is what I am hoping. I plan to thoroughly wash (in tank water) the ceramic rings and the big filter pads since it will have been off for 48 hours - and then run it into a 5 gallon bucket of tank water (or 2, consecutively) to clear out any anaerobic bacteria that might be stuck in the impeller area. Or I can just put it into a tank water bucket tomorrow and let it run that way until I do the actual tear down. I don't care if a bucket gets NO3 dumped into it.

So in a way I guess I'm lucky I have the extra HOB for now...


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Sounds like a good plan to me. Keep us updated on the progress


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## madison_cichlid_mom (Aug 13, 2017)

I will, thanks.


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> Okay, that could actually be part of the reason why you have such high nitrates all the time. Contrary to popular belief, *over filtration can actually be detrimental in the sense that it's too efficient at processing waste thus pumping out nitrates at a higher rate than would be produced at an 8-10x rate*. Just replace the biomedia with matrix in one filter at time so you don't kill off too much BB


Do you have any sources for the bolded? Really curious to see this as I've never come across this before.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Personal experience... In retrospect I was working out of town a lot then, so more than likely it was my fault for not cleaning the filters enough. Plus I was into planted tanks pretty heavy so I tried not to overfilter those tanks. That was years ago and now all my tanks are on at least 8-10x with my 180 gallon at 0-5 ppm between water changes.


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## madison_cichlid_mom (Aug 13, 2017)

And do you still have planted tanks? That might make a difference. I discussed this 8-10x vs 15x with a fellow microbiologist and he was unconvinced. That said, if you have it working well for you then that is great. The benefit of having more filtration for me is that I can completely tear down one filter at a time and not worry about affecting the microbiome of the rest of the tank.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

No not anymore, got to be too much of a headache. I guess I was just stuck in that mode of thought though, because over filtration on a heavily planted tank isn't ideal since the plants use ammonia and the byproducts for food basically. Plus I have a 7 month old baby girl that doesn't know daddy has to get up at 5 AM and wants to be rocked at 1 or 2 AM lol.


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

Two things on filtration in planted tanks - having higher flow rates are actually beneficial when you think of it in terms of the current getting the nutrients to the plants evenly. Additionally, plants are quite adapt at using Nitrate, to the point where that is one of the main fertilizers often added to tanks, particularly high tech planted tanks. I honestly don't believe we can over filter in the sense that filtration is too efficient. I used to believe that it was easy to overfilter a planted tank, but that was based on experiences and reading using the Walstad methods, but high tech planted tanks need as much filtration as other tanks do.

Every tank and set up is different, and the rules of thumb are often repeated without any real understanding of where they come from. 8x filtration from a HOB vs 8x from a canister vs 8x from a large sump system are all going to have different results based on media volume available for filtration. Measuring turnover is simply the easiest thing, but knowing what is really going on and balancing flow vs media and seeing the resultant water quality is harder, though at the end of the day the water quality is the important measure.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I can see how that would make sense but I was an avid fan of Tom Barr and had several discussions with him about the subject. He got me started on my first dirt tank.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I've heard crypts are happier in a "mature" tank and I came to realize they meant maybe bordering on old tank syndrome. I did notice my crypts were happier in less pristine tanks.


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## madison_cichlid_mom (Aug 13, 2017)

Nitrates are back down to <20. I have a bigger problem now, I had bought a bristle nose pleco to try to help with a little bit of the algae problems I was having and I added it to the tank which already had an albino pleco. Well clearly my albino was a girl and the new bristlenose was a boy and now I have lots and lots and lots of little baby plecos. :fish:

I separated dad and the babies into a different holding tank but clearly I'm gonna have to figure out how to safely donate them to various local pet stores.


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

madison_cichlid_mom said:


> Nitrates are back down to <20. I have a bigger problem now, I had bought a bristle nose pleco to try to help with a little bit of the algae problems I was having and I added it to the tank which already had an albino pleco. Well clearly my albino was a girl and the new bristlenose was a boy and now I have lots and lots and lots of little baby plecos. :fish:
> 
> I separated dad and the babies into a different holding tank but clearly I'm gonna have to figure out how to safely donate them to various local pet stores.


That is a great sign no matter what. Bristlenose cats always bring good money at the local club auctions, as they seem to always be in demand. You might search out a local club and find out about upcoming auctions.


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## madison_cichlid_mom (Aug 13, 2017)

There is a show/auction on Sep 24th here but I am out of town. I'll try to find someone who can babysit them/bring to show.


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## madison_cichlid_mom (Aug 13, 2017)

Update - all nitrogen levels in main tank back to normal. Casualties - 2 fluorescent danio and 3+ nerite snails. Consequences of massive water changes - breeding by my BN cats.


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