# Help with stocking a 125g aquaponic setup.



## Phivtoosyx (Dec 23, 2011)

Hi everyone. I need some advice on stocking my 125g aquponic setup. I've been building this setup off and on for about a year and am getting close to completing it and beginning cycling. I was originally going to stock food fish but have been bitten withe the new world cichlid bug, and have been studyimg as much as I can about them

First, let me describe my setup. I have a 75g sump that pumps water continually into my FT. The FT has what's called a solid lifting overflow that will keep the water level constant, pull water from the bottom of the tank including fish waste, and deposit that water into a75g growbed. the water feeds the plants in the GB and then is deposited into the sump. This is a closed loop system that shouldnt require any water changes. As long as iy isnt overstocked nitrates will be kept near 0 in an AP system by the needs of the plants. Water will be added to the system on a weekly basis to account for evaporation and plan nt uptake.

The general rule of thumb in AP is 1lb of fish per 10g of filtration. So, in a regular AP system I would be lookimg to stock fish that would grow out to total around 7.5lb. I think I'll be limited more by the space needs and aggressiveness of the fish I'll be keeping so I need help in determining that.

So on to stocking. below is a rough outline of what I'm thinking. Pleas give me any feedback or tell me what you would do with this system. Also, I plan on buying youmg fish and dont want any fully grown fish, and am looking for predomimately CA with a maybe 1 or 2 SA.
Community option: 
3 -4 loaches ...thinking yo yo
1 catfish..........syndontis?
1 pleco.............any suggestions on type?
3- 4 silver dollars
1 firemouth
1 salvini
1 oscar
1 green texas (edit)
1 JD
1 green terror

Breeding option:
Breeding tank..i have the option of using the 75g sump tank for a breeding pair (or two?) But would rather use it to raise feeder minnowws and such. Regardless, what would you breed in here and how would you do it? And, could I have breeder pairs in the 125 gallon? What would make good tankmates.

One last question. What is the min size aquarium I could use as a QT? Since I will be raising vegetables in my GB my use of chemicals will be limited. Therefore I plan on having a traditional aquarium setup to treat sick fish.

Thanks for reading through this noobs long post and forgive any typos...this was written on my phone.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

I'm not really very knowledgeable about the whole "Aquaponic" side but I will give some advice as far as stocking goes...

First off, if I am understanding this correctly, the only filtration will be via the 75gal planted sump? No kind of other mech, bio, or chem filtration? If this is the case, I would definitely try to keep your tank "under stocked". New world cichlids tend to be larger fish, therefore they produce a large amount of waste. Almost all the cichlids on your list will eventually be 8+ inches.

Now on to the actual stock...

For the Loaches/Syno, I would choose one or the other. Loaches are a very social fish and should be in a nice size shoal (5+).

Silver Dollars are also a shoaling species and should be in a group of at least 5 as well. They also get large and will take up a lot of space, especially when you have 5 of them. So, you may want to stick to something smaller for a "dither" fish. A few good choices would be: Buenos Aires Tetras, Giant Danios, Congo Tetras and Colombian Tetras. I would aim for a shoal of at least 6.

For cichlids, I would go ahead a cross Oscars off the list. They are known to be very messy. So your then left with:

1x Firemouth
1x Salvini
1x JD
1x GT
1x Texas

Although 5 cichlids in a 125 is doable, your list contains a few that I would not recommend mixing as they look very similar. This will only add to the aggression as they mature. I would pick one out of the JD, GT and Texas. So your then down to the Firemouth, Salvini and your choice out of the other 3. You could then add 2 more cichlids if you so choose. A few that I think would work are: Sajica, Cutteri, HRP's, Rainbows/Multispinosa and Nicaraguans. If possible, try and get all males as this will stop from any of them pairing up and hybridizing, especially if you get multiple Archocentrus or Cryptoheros species.

Hopefully this was helpful, and remember these are only my opinions...

Good luck with whatever you choose! :thumb:


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## Phivtoosyx (Dec 23, 2011)

Thanks Chris. Those sound like quality tips. I really like the look of the Nics so Ill trade out one of the three for that! Forgive my noobness but what is a HRP?

Also, do you mean oscars are messy as in poop messy or tear aprt your aquarium messy? I've heard they are both but was just wondering which one you were referring to. And, would it be possible to plant a hardy plant or two in the aquarium with the fish listed so far?

You are a litlle confused on the sump part. I have a 75g sump AND a 75g 12 inch high growbed that will be filled with hydroton and used to grow vegetables. It gives me about 11 square feet of growing area. This will be the filtration. The water from the growbed then drains into the sump which then pumps the water to the fishtank. Hope this helps.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

Ahh ok, thanks for clearing that up. It sounds like that setup will do a great job keeping the water in check.
To answer your questions...

HRP = Cryptoheros sp. "Honduran Red Point"

When I said Oscars were messy, I was just referring to them as messy in general when it comes to eating, waste, ect.

As far as plants go in a New World tank, it's hit or miss. I am sure some hardier plants like Anubias, Java Fern, Val and even Marimo Moss balls could work. None of the fish listed should really eat them, but they may uproot them or simply decide to shred them. :roll: It's definitely worth a shot as I have used the above plants in such a setup with success.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Phivtoosyx said:


> FT GB As long as iy isnt overstocked nitrates will be kept near 0 in an AP system by the needs of the plants.


What does FT and GB stand for?

I ran an aquaponic system for over 3 years, and studied it in depth, for a lot longer. There are a few academic papers with controlled experiments that i looked at. Not a lot, as aquaponics is not a huge feild of study, but there is a few. One such controlled experiment that comes to mind did show results in reducing nitrates. The key is the direct removal of fish waste from the aquarium and waste water from the grow bed not returning to the system. But they still had over 10ppm nitrate.

0ppm nitrate, IMO is total 'pie in the sky'. Even with 100% removal of fish waste on a continous basis, and no waste water returning from the grow bed-----you still have the fish's respiration producing amonia, that will be broken down by bacteria into nitrate.

My aquaponic system did absolutely nothing to reduce nitrates, as it was part of the system and did not remove fish waste from the system. Terrestrial plants will not use nitrate above the amount of water they use ----the only way they could is if the concentration of nitrate is higher at the root cellular level then it is in the rest of the water. And nitrate with it's negative charge does not move through water towards roots, it simply goes where ever water goes---very basics of plant nutrient uptake. Thus the reason to put the fish waste directly over the roots and not have the unused water go back into the aquarium.

Direct fish waste removal and a grow bed seperate from the aquarium can reduce nitrates (as shown by a few controlled experiments that i studied). But a set up like i had, as part of the system, did essentially nothing to reduce nitrate. It's a way of changing some water as the plant transpires and uses water, that's about it. But since at the time i also ran an automatic water changing system at 1 1/2 gal. per hour all it really meant is that some water went into the air rather then down the drain. In a system of 300 gal. (180 gal, 100 gal and 20 gal sump), i still had 40 ppm+ nitrates-----I had big cichlids, but i doubt their combined weight would exceed 5 lbs. I used a 400 watt metal halide and a 150 watt HPS for 18 hours a day. I started with about 50 or so tomato plants, reduce them down over a few month down to the largest one----grew it for over a year and it had a stem like small tree. A number of times i hauled out 
vegetation to the compost pile by the 5 gal. pale full. It was a huge plant. later i also grew a hot banna pepper plant---it was large but nothing luike the tomato plant.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

Phivtoosyx said:


> Breeding option:
> Breeding tank..i have the option of using the 75g sump tank for a breeding pair (or two?) But would rather use it to raise feeder minnows and such. Regardless, what would you breed in here and how would you do it? And, could I have breeder pairs in the 125 gallon? What would make good tankmates.
> 
> One last question. What is the min size aquarium I could use as a QT? Since I will be raising vegetables in my GB my use of chemicals will be limited. Therefore I plan on having a traditional aquarium setup to treat sick fish.
> ...


Figured I'd have a go at your other questions as well...

With the fish you originally listed, you are better off keeping a community of males. However, in the 75 gal planted sump you could add a couple pairs if you wanted. There are quite a few options here, did you have anything in mind? I know you said you would like to breed some feeders... Along with a pair or two of cichlids, you could breed some livebearers like guppies, swordtails and platties. They are very prolific breeders and would give you a constant supply of healthy feeders.

For a QT tank, I would probably go with something like a 20gal "long". You could possibly get away with something smaller, but if you had to QT one of your larger growing cichlids down the road it would be very cramped. A QT tank does not need to be elaborate and the simpler you keep it the better in my opinion. I would not use any substrate and just add few places for the fish to hide such as some upturned flower pots. You of course will need some sort of heater and filtration...

Bernie, good info. 40+ ppm of Nitrates is definitely not a good thing! I agree, you want ZERO Nitrates. Looks like there is no substitute for regular water changes... :roll:


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## Phivtoosyx (Dec 23, 2011)

I can raise the pair of cichlids along with feeders in the same tank? The cichlids wont eat all the feeders?
I dont have a preference on the type of cichlid, but its probably better for me to get something easy and maybe easy on plants so the feeders will have somewhere to hide.

20 g sounds good, glad you didnt say 55g! I'll pick one up and the necessary equipment.

Thanks for the help!


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

CjCichlid said:


> Looks like there is no substitute for regular water changes... :roll:


Yes, that was my solution. A return to weekly water changes :lol: The 1 1/2 gal. per hour sounds like a lot but really is not, as a drip system is a continous dilution. Moved (actually twice since) and never bothered to set up a drip system again. I just went with larger and larger water changes---different methods. And figured it made a lot more sense just to remove fish waste with water changes (and from the filter) and use it in the garden rather then the kind of aquaponic set up as i had.


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## Phivtoosyx (Dec 23, 2011)

Bernie, sorry I missed your original post. Im still on the phone so I feel like im surfing the net in a fog and I may miss some stuff. FT =fish tank GB = growbed...sorry forthe acronyms

But, Im glad to see a fellow aquponicists on here! Can you describe your system a litle more. What type of growbed did you have, grow media, and flooding system? Was it flood and drain, constant flood, etc?

I cant speak for your system, but I know that there are too many people doing aquaponics around the world to say that you cant have a closed loop system. Check out backyardaquaponics.com and go to the member systems thread. There are hundreds of examples just on that forum of people doing exactly that.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

Phivtoosyx said:


> I can raise the pair of cichlids along with feeders in the same tank? The cichlids wont eat all the feeders?
> I dont have a preference on the type of cichlid, but its probably better for me to get something easy and maybe easy on plants so the feeders will have somewhere to hide.
> 
> 20 g sounds good, glad you didnt say 55g! I'll pick one up and the necessary equipment.
> ...


With the 75 being heavily planted and the fact that live bearers reproduce like rabbits, I think you'll find yourself overrun with feeders within a few short months!

If you are still interested in having a pair or two of cichlids in the 75 as well, I would just aim for something that is generally known to be relatively docile. A few that I think would work well that come to mind are Bolivian Rams (3 pairs), Rainbows/Multispinosa (2 pairs) and Keyholes (2 pairs). Personally, I would go with the Rams. They stay small, are very peaceful, and are packed with a lot of personality. They will thrive in a heavily planted tank and are really interesting to keep when kept in multiple paired groups.


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## Phivtoosyx (Dec 23, 2011)

Thanks Chris.

Im thinking it might be good to stock light...especially in the beginning in order to allow the system to mature, maybe just one or two nice CAs. That may alleviate some of the issues that Bernie experienced. Regardless, I have some time to think a libout it and appreciate everyones input.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Phivtoosyx said:


> Can you describe your system a litle more I know that there are too many people doing aquaponics around the world to say that you cant have a closed loop system.


Over 5 years ago that i had this system----so it's the past, but am still very much interested in aquaponics. It was a constant flow, 2 pumps for about 600 -800 gal. an hour----very simple and crude. medium was filtration material: peices of spunge and plastic. The tomatoe plant had very water loving roots and actually completely filled the sump tub up with it's roots as well -----definately couldn't get away with such a wet root zone with most terrestrial plants as the lack of oxygen to the roots would kill the plant.

No, I don't claim that a closed system is not posssible. I don't mean to sound critical or negative, just that the actual physical removal of fish waste (with little or no return of waste water to the fish tank) is the benefit to the fish. Of course the plants definately benefit from the fish, but fish really only benefit from the direct removal of fish waste. In the case of my set up with a constant flow and no direct removal of fish waste (600-800 gal. per hour, any waste in the grow bed is part of the system) the plant has no real benefit to the fish.

I do think 0 ppm nitrate is completely unrealistic in a aquaponic set up----but i guess you will find out for sure. And 7.5 lbs. of fish in 75 gal. is A LOT! I measure and weigh fish, just to give a few examples: 10" Vieja = 1 lb., 15 1/2" dovii = 2 lb.. An oscar is a softer bodied fish----from what i have seen on the internt, very large 12-13" oscars don't quite weigh 1 lb. Bear in mind these are actual measurements, not guessitimates as most people talk about size of fish, that are almost always quite innacurate when it comes to large fish. I had 4 adult oscars (10-12") plus a bunch of other smaller fish (that would not have added up to 1 lb.) in 300 gal. of water and still had rising nitrates. 7.5 lbs. of fish in 75 gal. of water is like 8 or more very large oscars in a 75 gal. That is something to think about as that is A LOt of fish for this kind of space.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

I think as long as you get them all small (1-3in) to begin with, you will be alright. The reason I say this is you will have a MUCH better chance of everyone getting along if you start them all off small and introduce everyone at the same time to let them all grow up together. If you were to say get 2 now, then later down the road add 2-3 more, the chances of them not getting along greatly increases as the 2 original ones will already have claimed the entire tank to themselves.


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## Phivtoosyx (Dec 23, 2011)

Bernie, thanks for the detail. I see your point. Some people do run systems with very low nitrate levels. Excessive nitrates can be removed by adding more growbeds, some people run a 3:1 growbed to fishtank ratio. Since your setup was similar to mine, I think either decreasing my stocking level or adding another GB may be in order. I think some of the food fish that is grown are not bothered by nitrates as much as cichlids so maybe I need to tinker with the rule of thumb in order to get my nitrate level down. Or add more GBs as the stock matures. on another side note, nitrates are reportedly removed quicker in lower ph. So, its harder for the plants to decrease the nitrate level witha high ph. Don't know if that would be relevant in your case.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

bernie comeau said:


> 7.5 lbs. of fish in 75 gal. of water


Sorry, I'm mistaken; got things a little mixed up. That should read 7.5 lbs of fish in 200 gal. (125gal +75 gal. sump)----not nearly quite the same as 7.5 lbs. in 75 gal. as i stated. I have no real problems with your stock list, though conceivably it could add up to 7.5 lbs. of fish (maximum) many years from now. So it is a fairly heavy load for this tank. And also be aware that there is no guarantee that aggressive cichlids will get along over time.
The controlled experiment i refferred to earlier had a bare sloped false bottom in order to collect all the fish waste on a daily basis, and a grow bed that was essentially seperate from the aquarium. If your set up is anything like mine was, with constant flow, substrate in the fish tank and a grow bed that is part of the system, then essentially your plant's use of nitrate is it's water useage. it's a way of changing water. With a heavy load in the tank (at least eventually), 50% water change weekly would probably be around the minimum to maintain a fairly low nitrate level. in a 200 gal. system, that's 100 gallons a week.
How many plants can you water with 100 gallons a week? (And also consider that water is used more effeciently in hydroponics then it is in soil). I would be curious to know how mush lighting you intend to use for your grow bed(s) as generally the size of a grow is the amount of light (stated in watts when refferring to HPS or metal halide) rather then the number of plants or number of grow beds.

I admit i am not factoring in the possibility of direct usage of ammonia by the plant(s). I realize a soiless medium is different. In soil, regardless of the kind of nitrogen fertilizer aplied, plants generally end up getting nitrogen in the form of nitrate---any clay in the soil generally ensures that bacteria get the ammonia first. But with fish waste in the substrate and a high constant flow through the grow bed, I would think this fairly negligible as bacteria are likely to get access to at least a good part of the ammonia.


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## Phivtoosyx (Dec 23, 2011)

My setup is very similar to yours. This is why I'm leaning toward decreasing my stocking level. But, I do plan on growing more plants...hopefully that will help also.

I'm still debating what type of lighting to use. How much room did you have above your tomato plant with that 400w MH?

The issue that I have is that the light may be too close to the leaves causing them to burn, so I may not be able to use traditional MH bulbs as they get pretty hot. I have about 3 feet of clearance from the grow media to the bulb due to the fact that the GB has to be above the sump and then the GB is about 12" high and I'm limited by my ceiling.

So I'm looking at setting up four 125w or 200w CFLs or some T5/T8s. I'm not sure which I'm going to go for. I may end up doing a combination. Four 125w would total 500w and four 200w would equal 800w. I would also be able to put the lights really close to the plants.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Phivtoosyx said:


> How much room did you have above your tomato plant with that 400w MH?
> 
> The issue that I have is that the light may be too close to the leaves causing them to burn, so I may not be able to use traditional MH bulbs as they get pretty hot. I have about 3 feet of clearance from the grow media to the bulb due to the fact that the GB has to be above the sump


I had both my 400 watt MH and 150 watt HPS on chains, and raised them right up to the ceiling in short time. I had wired the socket from the ballast on the MH, so that the ballast was outside of the immediate grow area----so it was more compact, just a socket with reflector. My filtration/grow bed and sump tub stood almost 3 feet high, ceiling close to 8 foot ---- so a little less then 5 feet high from the base of the plant to the lights. It was an area 3' X 3', by almost 5 feet high and was completely filled up with vegetation by the tomatoe plant. I trimmed alot. In the springtime , I probably started over a 100 tomatoe plants from cuttings---most i gave away. Hauled out vegetation in 2-3 packed 5 gallon pales to the compost pile on many occasions. I did 'fry' some vegetation that grew too close to the bulb---not really a big problem other then maybe it could have been a fire hazard (?) :lol: In the spring time, i had a few shoots growing out in front of the basement window and in the summertime, opened the window to allow it to grow outside as well (with a small peice of wood to block the rest of the window opening). The part that grew outside never really amounted to too much though, as it was on the west side of the house and never got sun until late in the day.
IME and IMO, an HPS (high pressure sodium) is much superior at growing just about any plant, then an MH. So if your really concerned with 'cooking' vegetation, I'd consider smaller HPS lamps.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Phivtoosyx said:


> How much room did you have above your tomato plant with that 400w MH?


I see from my last post, i did not really answer the question. I did not put a measuring tape, but I'm pretty sure much less then 12" with a developed plant. The vegetation i fried, i'm pretty sure actually touched the bulb. The MH bulb was verticle, not horizontal, so vegetation grew all around (and past, into the rafters as my basement was not a finished basement). The grow area was in the corner, between my 180 gal and 100 gal. I hung 2 peices of drywall, 4 ft. from the the ceiling, though vegetation actually went down to the floor up to the ceiling as i used a 10 gal container inside a 45 gal. container (1/2 full of water) and this root area did not take up the full 3' x 3' space.

I started with a 23 or 26 watt CFL. Put the 150 watt HPS in soon after, innitially probably about 2 ft. away, though vegetataion grew towards it very quickly. Soon after, the 400 watt MH. The amount of vetation i actually fried with both my HID lights is quite insignificant compared to ther size of this plant , and would not have happened with very regular weekly or bi-weekly trimmings. I'm pretty sure it touched the bulb ( on a number of occasions) as this vegetation was very beige and crumbled to dust as soon as you touched it.

My tomato plant flowered--lots and lots of flowerrs that fell off. It produced ONE tomato. Very early in it's life it produced one tomato shortly after i had added some phosophorous and and potassium fertilizer. Lot's of nitrogen from an aquarium, but i strongly suspect, not enough phosophate. The N-P ratio is not right ----that is what i beleive. Though i had no real intention of producing edible food from aquaponics. My garden produced more tomatos then i could ever use----the plant I grew from my aquarium ( aquaponically)came from a a rotten beefsteak strain tomato ( that i grew from my garden), and put into bought 'soil' in order to sprout it..


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## Phivtoosyx (Dec 23, 2011)

I can work with 12", and after talking to the guy at the hydro store I went ahead and got a 400w MH. Dang is it bright! Now, I just have to hook up my pump and I can start cycling! I'll post pics once I get it up and running with a few fish. Thanks for your help.



bernie comeau said:


> My tomato plant flowered--lots and lots of flowerrs that fell off. It produced ONE tomato.


Did you help pollinate the flowers? Indoor tomato plants need a little help with pollination since bees and insects are usually absent so the flowers need help otherwise they won't produce fruit. Most people use a q-tip, cotton swab, etc to pollinate the flowers. Although, some people just shake the plant and hope for the best. I would suspect that it had adequate phosphate / potassium as it was producing flowers, otherwise it would have been all veg so it may have just needed a little help. Of course this is all hindsight and arm chair quarterbacking so take it as what its worth.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Phivtoosyx said:


> Did you help pollinate the flowers? Indoor tomato plants need a little help with pollination since bees and insects are usually absent so the flowers need help otherwise they won't produce fruit. Most people use a q-tip, cotton swab, etc to pollinate the flowers. Although, some people just shake the plant and hope for the best.


Never even thought of that----that could very well be why the flowers did not produce fruit.


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