# My African Cichlids are dying! Malawi tank



## sinapresents (Jul 21, 2016)

I have been keeping AC for about 3 months now I am relatively new to them but I have experience keeping other types of fish. I have now lost 2 fish in 1 week! Details of the dead fish: 1 stopped eating and developed swelling in the area between the pectoral fins and the base of the anal fin it died after a few days of swelling (swelling occurred a few days after it stopped eating), another 1 got sick and died the day after (no visible signs of illness on this one but it was breathing more rapidly than usual (this fish was eating but very little although he wasn't spitting food back out). Please can you tell me what's going on? I don't want to lose anymore fish  This has never happened to me before with any fish I have kept.

The 2 dead fish were peacocks both around 2.5-3inches. I do 2 water changes a week 25% each time. I add aquarium salt with the water changes at half the recommended dosage as that's the advice I got from my LFS? I feed them flake food once a day. I have just ordered Ocean Rock to add in the tank will that help?

Extra details:
Tank Size: 55 Imperial Gallons
Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 20
Ph = 7.5
Temperature = 27`Celcius
Number of fish 14 (4 Yellow Labs (Mbuna) (10 Peacocks) all juveniles.

Any advice will be appreciated. Thank you.


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## velenc (Jan 16, 2013)

I am not an expert but it sounds like you have an internal parasite or a bacterial infection like Malawi Bloat. Here is some info on it:
http://fish-etc.com/fish/cichlids/malaw ... ed-disease


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If it is bloat they will have clear-thready feces. Are they lurking at the top of the tank?


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## sinapresents (Jul 21, 2016)

DJRansome said:


> If it is bloat they will have clear-thready feces. Are they lurking at the top of the tank?


No the 1 with the swelling was lethargic and hanging at the bottom of the tank but was still swimming quiet a bit. Fish number 2 died within a few hours of heavy breathing with no external signs and was swimming fine right until it died. Hope that helps?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Swimming fine, but lurking under the surface or behind/near filter intakes and heaters? Try to see the feces...even if it is on the healthy fish. All thick and food-colored?


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## sinapresents (Jul 21, 2016)

The 2 that died were not near the top or behind intakes. Another 1 of my fish is doing that though is that always a bad sign? Or can be he just likes that spot? All the feces I have seen have been full colour and pretty thick but I couldn't swear by that regarding the 2 dead fish. The remaining fish look active and eat well.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

A fish that is lurking is being harassed. By choice they would not choose that spot. A harassed fish eventually has his immune system compromised and gets sick. So yes it is always a bad sign.

It usually impacts one fish at a time...the fact that the rest are not lurking just means it is not their turn to be singled out.

A 2.5" peacock is not really a juvenile.

Are the 10 peacocks all one species? If yes it's common for extra males to be harassed and you may need to remove them.

If the peacocks are all different you may have some females among them...if you don't have enough females then many males will harass few females with similar results. You may need to remove them.

Harassment is often not witnessed by the fishkeeper.


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## sinapresents (Jul 21, 2016)

Thanks for that advice! As far as I know they are all male judging by the colourations of the fish and fins being long and pointy (I think 1 maybe a female because it is black and silvery in colour very dull compared to others and is around 2.5inches). The 10 peacocks are all different colours to each other I was told this would help reduce aggression. Through observation I haven't seen abnormal levels of aggression they do chase around here and there but of course maybe it's happening when I can't see. I just don't want whatever it is to spread to all the fish.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

And it will so consider removing the fish that is lurking. Is it the female?

You want the variances between fish to be pretty dramatic. Once you have a red one, a yellow one and a blue one among peacocks...you have mostly exhausted the ones that don't look alike.

What are the species of each?


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## sinapresents (Jul 21, 2016)

No It's my smallest Yellow Lab hanging by the intake. Shall I remove him from the tank? I don't have a hospital tank though?
This is how they were labeled in the shop you may know them by different names: 1 strawberry peacock, 1 albino Eureka Red, 1 red shoulder peacock, 1 OB, 1 Marbled, 1 Blue Ngara, 1 Jacobfriebergi, 1 Apache peacock, 1 Blue Neon Peacock and the Female which I don't know what species it is.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You need a hospital tank and a rehoming plan when keeping an all-male tank. Yes I would remove him so that he does not develop bloat or another illness and infect the tank.

The strawberry is a hybrid, which is OK. Anything with pink or red may consider each other look-alikes (strawberry, eureka, etc.). Jacobfreibergi are considered too large/aggressive for a 55G...and even in a bigger tank we usually stock one/Jake/tank to manage aggression. Which Jake do you have? The Eureka is also a Jake. What is the difference between an OB and a marbled peacock?


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## sinapresents (Jul 21, 2016)

I have just got myself a hospital tank actually from the advice I have been getting so will be getting that cycled soon. Yes the Eureka is a jacobfriebergi but it's an albino so it's pure orange no markings but its only about 1-1.5inch the other freibergi is red with white blazes on the fins and the body also 1-1.5inch. I have gone with a mixture of sizes apparently that helps reduce aggression too? The strawberry is a pinkish colour.
The OB is orange with black blotches the marbled is whitish with brown blotches they look exactly the same apart from colour, probably the same fish? Also with the hospital tank what happens if 2 or 3 fish are ill at once? Is it okay to put them in the small tank given the aggressive nature of the fish?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Well, the reason the fish got sick (or maybe it is still perfectly healthy and you removed him before he got sick) was the others in the tank were harassing him. That is not going to change unless you rehome some of the aggressive fish. Usually one sick fish/hospital tank.

Once the fish color I have not found a mix of sizes helps with aggression. You have had that experience too, since the lab is being harassed.

I would decide which look-alikes to rehome and then maybe add back some haps to get fish that look nothing alike. And maybe rehome both Jakes since they do better in 48x18 or larger.

The OB, marbled, Strawberry and the Apache are hybrids which tend to be more aggressive, so keep an eye on them if you choose to keep them.

The red shoulder, the Ngara and the blue neon are good choices for a 48x12 tank.


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## sinapresents (Jul 21, 2016)

Yes it's hard because you are not watching the tank all day so the fish could be harassed and not seen. My tank is 4ft long so should be okay for the Freibergi right, How big do they get in aquariums? 
Thanks for the advice soon as I have my hospital tank up and running I can separate individuals so as not to have anything spread to other fish.

I was given the reason that the fish that are the same size will be in competition and leave the rest alone, from what I see in tank it slightly works as my smallest ones chase each other and the bigger ones chase each other but the 2 sizes don't interact with each other. However, this will change with the fish growing so not such a smart idea I guess. :/


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Ideally jacobfreibergi are kept in 48x18 or larger. It's not just a size thing...it is also aggression.

It's usually OK to add juveniles to adult fish. But once they mature you will have the usually aggression problems if the stocking is a problem. You mentioned your are 2.5" or larger and colored. Basically that means they are all adult fish and will fight with whomever they view as competition.


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## sinapresents (Jul 21, 2016)

That's very true. I will prepare myself to remove any fish that becomes too large and aggressive as they develop and swap them for another one or not depending on suitable species. Thanks for all the advice. How important are other water parameters such as PH, KH and GH to African Cichlids?

Also you mentioned swamping some peacocks for haps, can you recommend any particular species for my tank size?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

This is what I would do.

Your water parameters are OK.

You already need to rehome some fish since someone is harassing the lab. It's not a question of waiting for fish to become too large/too aggressive...that time is here.

Among the peacocks, keep the red shoulder, the Ngara and the Blue Neon. Rehome the rest.

Increase the number of labs to 5 individuals.

Add a yellow peacock (stuartgranti Maleri?) and a red one (rubescens?) that is not a hybrid or a Jake.

Then Placidochromis electra Deep Water is nice. And Otopharynx Tetrastigma will be a good choice to finish off your tank.


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## sinapresents (Jul 21, 2016)

Okay thank you for the advice much appreciated! I will look into rehoming options. BTW the 2 fish that died were a yellow peacock and a red peacock. 
Will peacocks harass the yellow labs? I think it might be my 2 male labs harassing the small one, I would like to get some female labs for the 2 males but it's hard to sex them at the size they are sold in pet shops.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You can never tell who will harass who...it is very likely the labs are the culprits. We just buy unsexed juveniles and rehome extra males as they mature and cause trouble. But a larger group of labs of any gender would likely work.


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## sinapresents (Jul 21, 2016)

Thanks for the advice I will try to get more labs in. I have actually lost the yellow Lab that was by the filter since starting this thread so that's now 3 fish in just about 1 week


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## sinapresents (Jul 21, 2016)

I know it has been a while since I posted here, hope I can still get a few replies.

I have lost yet another fish, 5 in the space of just under 2 months give or take a few days.  I am certain it must be from a disease as that's the only thing I can think of that can spread? My water tests fine with readings of: Ammonia = 0 Nitrite = 0 Nitrate = 10 PH = 8.5. I do a 15-20% water change twice a week.

All of the fish die within a few hours of showing signs of heavy breathing. 4 of the fish that have died are peacock cichlids the other a yellow lab.

number of fish in the tank is now 12. 3x yellow labs and 9x peacocks. Tank size is 250L, 4ft long and it is over filtered. Please let me know if you need any more info that may help.

Is there anything I can do to stop the spread?

Thanks!


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## stalefish83 (May 22, 2014)

pH is 8.5? When you started the thread it was 7.5. That's a major variance. Too much! That could be the problem. Do they exhibit the heavy breathing perhaps after a water change? Have you tested the pH straight from the tap (or whatever you use to re-fill during a water change)? If the pH from your tap is different than the tank itself by more than .2 that could very well be the issue. Going from 7.5 to 8.5 is a sure way to kill fish. Sorry for your loss, that's rough.


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## stalefish83 (May 22, 2014)

The next time you do a water change test the pH in the tank before that change, then again after the water change, then test it again after 24 hours. If it fluctuates by more than .2 you will need to find some what to stabalize. Maybe some type of pH buffer like crushed coral. You can put crushed coral in the filter. I've never had to do this, so there are surely others who have much more knowledge than I do regarding keeping a steady pH.


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## sinapresents (Jul 21, 2016)

Hi Guys, sorry I should have mentioned since the last time I posted I was advised to increase my PH so I added Ocean Rock in the tank and it is now 8.5 as a result. Is that too much? Do the rocks change the water chemistry immediately or slowly? I have never tested the water after a water change so I will do that next time I usually do it before. The tap water in my home tests at 7.5PH how much would that effect the tank water if I am doing small water changes of 15-20% twice a week? If this is a major issue you are probably right it could be causing stress to the fish. If I add crushed coral wouldn't that increase the PH in the tank thus an even bigger gap from the tap to the tank? I also add aquarium salt which buffers PH.

The fish actually seem really active after water changes, the deaths actually usually happen just before my water change days, coincidence? Also 4 of them have literally died within hours, they would be fine in the morning and when I come back 4-5 hours later I find 1 dead. I had 1 case of bloat where the fish had swollen, I heard it's contagious?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Swelling does not mean bloat...despite the name. If they are eating they don't have bloat. Do they all eat every time?

Your tap water would be fine. I am surprised that ocean rock caused it to go to 8.5...I have the equivalent and my pH=7.8 from the tap does not budge. Don't add crushed coral...it should not have an impact either, but you are trying to get your pH closer to your tap water...not raise pH even more.

Over time the small changes should equalize the tap pH with the tank pH and eliminate that problem.


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## sinapresents (Jul 21, 2016)

Yes they stopped eating but the rest didn't swell up just heavy breathing, only 1 had the swelling. Honestly I had no idea they were so sensitive I have kept many fish in the past without problems. Since the increased PH I have noticed they behave a lot more naturally and they look happier than before. Can the PH in tap water change depending on the time of year? My tap water is pretty hard normally.


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## james1983 (Dec 23, 2007)

If they eating, I would think bloat or some other internal parasite. Are their stomachs sunk in? What color is their poop?


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## sinapresents (Jul 21, 2016)

I am not entirely sure what sunken in means...they don't look like abnormal? I feed them once a day and I feed in a way to make sure they all eat. Also I only put what they eat so as not to pollute the water. Their poop is thick and like a light brown colour thats the best way I can explain it. I don't usually see them pooping unlike the other fish I keep.


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## sinapresents (Jul 21, 2016)

sinapresents said:


> I am not entirely sure what sunken in means...they don't look like abnormal? I feed them once a day and I feed in a way to make sure they all eat. Also I only put what they eat so as not to pollute the water. Their poop is thick and like a light brown colour thats the best way I can explain it. I don't usually see them pooping unlike the other fish I keep.


I just done my water change and the test results as follows:

Ammonia = 0 Nitrite = 0 Nitrate = 10 PH (before water change) = 8.5 PH (after water change) = 8.2 the liquid was slightly lighter in colour than the 8.5 but colour didn't change enough to be 8 if that makes sense?

Will check tank PH again in 24hours. I tested my tap water too and it has gone down to 7 since the last time I checked which was 7-9days ago.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

OK that much of a change is OK but don't let it change more than that in one day. With a tap pH of 7 you don't want to use straight tap water. But you also don't have to maintain 8.5 in the tank.

I'd treat the water you add for future partial water changes to keep the pH around 8.

Did you or are you going to change stock? The pH is likely not killing anyone, but if you have a disease fluctuating water parameters contribute to stress.

The fish that are dying have thick food colored feces in the days before they die?

If one or some of your fish had bloat at the beginning, it could be moving through your tank. It is typical for a fish to die every week or month and the others seem fine at the moment. So try to observe the feces on the one that stopped eating and has the heavy breathing.


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## sinapresents (Jul 21, 2016)

Thanks everyone for all your feedback I appreciate it! I am not sure why the tank water has gone so far as 8.5 with me only adding 25KG of ocean rock, I have also added live plants (annubias) in between the rocks for decoration. I add salt to the water I put in the tank which should buffer the tap PH slightly closer to the tank PH. I am planning on changing stock but I don't want to do so if there is a disease as any fish I add will end up dying 

I am not sure about the feces but as an example this is the timeline for the latest fish that died: it ate the day before as normal, the next morning it didn't eat and died within a few hours of heavy breathing. Same thing happened to 2 other out of the 5. So basically all of them are going die if it is bloat? :'(


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## james1983 (Dec 23, 2007)

I would try treating with food soaked in metro/aquarium water or dissolve some epsom salt in aquarium water and soak their food in it. I've had success with both, but the salt is a lot cheaper.


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## sinapresents (Jul 21, 2016)

Is metro the same as Metronidazole by SeaChem? If so I have looked for SeaChem medications for a while not found any in the UK. Are you suggesting soaking the food in saltwater and feeding? Can you confirm this is safe as it would be giving them high concentrations of salt?


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## james1983 (Dec 23, 2007)

Yes it is the seachem stuff. The Epsom salt treatment is perfectly safe. I've used it and it has worked.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... us.402879/


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## sinapresents (Jul 21, 2016)

Just had a look at the forum link...So I am to add 1 level tablespoon of aquarium salt to 500ml of water, shake it till dissolved and add a few drops using a pipet to a pellet or flake food then feed the fish for 3-5 days and the salt will not harm the fish?


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Epsom salt is not the same as aquarium salt, look for Epsom salt in a drugstore or in the pharmacy area of discount store.


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## james1983 (Dec 23, 2007)

sinapresents said:


> Just had a look at the forum link...So I am to add 1 level tablespoon of aquarium salt to 500ml of water, shake it till dissolved and add a few drops using a pipet to a pellet or flake food then feed the fish for 3-5 days and the salt will not harm the fish?


Epsom salt, it should be magnesium sulfate. You can find it in pharmacies and most big box stores in the medication section. Just mix it, soak the food, then dump the whole mess in the tank.


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## sinapresents (Jul 21, 2016)

I found the below product ingredients are: magnesium chloride, calcium chloride, potassium sulfate, sodium chloride, aluminum sulfate, iron sulfate, potassium iodide. Is this correct?

http://www.swelluk.com/seachem-cichlid- ... oC9JHw_wcB


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## james1983 (Dec 23, 2007)

sinapresents said:


> I found the below product ingredients are: magnesium chloride, calcium chloride, potassium sulfate, sodium chloride, aluminum sulfate, iron sulfate, potassium iodide. Is this correct?
> 
> http://www.swelluk.com/seachem-cichlid- ... oC9JHw_wcB


I'm not sure what will happen if you feed that to your fish. The only thing in Epsom salt is magnesium sulfate.


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## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

sinapresents said:


> I found the below product ingredients are: magnesium chloride, calcium chloride, potassium sulfate, sodium chloride, aluminum sulfate, iron sulfate, potassium iodide. Is this correct?
> 
> http://www.swelluk.com/seachem-cichlid- ... oC9JHw_wcB


Since you insist on using aquarium salt :roll: , let us know how your fish do after being fed . opcorn:


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would not mind using Epsom salt in the tank water overall on a regular basis. This can help with a mild case. If feces are thick and food-colored you may have something else.

For bloat, I googled metronidazole in the uk and I got lots of hits. Looks like it may be for humans, but maybe your vet can write a prescription.


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## sinapresents (Jul 21, 2016)

The one that is readily available here and I have been using is called "Interpet Aqualibrium Aquarium Salt" which says it can be used to cure infections, dropsy and as a general tonic but I will have a look at finding Epsom salt now and compare the 2 products. The LFS I go to advised me not to follow the instructions on the packet as they are exaggerated and can cause an overdose, is this true for Epsom too? Again thanks you!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would never feed it to the fish, but only add it to the water as a conditioner. I have not tried it like james.

NaCl used to be used for infections but I think there are more effective products on the market. The problem you have is no diagnosis. General tonics don't work IME.


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## sinapresents (Jul 21, 2016)

precisely. Everyone always says water quality is the main reason fish die but even though I am looking after my water they are still dying. We spoke about restocking some of the fish how much of a problem is it if I do that now? Or should I wait?


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## james1983 (Dec 23, 2007)

I wouldn't add any new fish until you can find out what is happening to your current fish.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'll move this to Illness. Maybe someone else will recognize the 24 hour deaths with heavy breathing and hanging on the bottom.


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## sinapresents (Jul 21, 2016)

Thanks! I appreciate that.


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