# Is buying Wild caught worth the extra money????



## mollysgood (Sep 26, 2002)

Genetically they are the same. If two wild caught parents had their young in the lake they would all be considered wild, so what's the difference if they are born in a tank (genetically they are the same as wild). If you get F-1's from two different sources then basically your breeding with wild caught stock most likely.

I'm only bring this up because of the price difference between f-1 and wild caught. Although in most cases wild caught will be full size. For myself I'm sticking with buying F-1, saving some money, & still I'm getting the same quality that comes from the lake.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

They aren't genetically the same on a population level. In the lake they have to pass through natural selection, and those fish that survive get their "pick" of mates from a wider population. In the tank there is no selection and the choice of mates is limited, therefore fish that wouldn't survive or be successful in the wild grow to adult size.

WC is a concern for those people who provide *you* with the F1 fish. Better to have WC breeders and produce F1 fish so that *you* can buy these with the tag of F1. There is a general consensus that F2 is the last "useful" label that applies to the fish trade. Generally speaking F1 fish will look the similar to WC fish (we can't fully replicate the natural environment) and will still produce viable offspring.

There's nothing wrong with F1 fish, but they are by no means "the same" as wild caught fish.


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## mollysgood (Sep 26, 2002)

That does make sense as far as wild caught having passed the survival test but I'm simply referring to the actual traits that are passed on from parents to the young. I've seen plenty of wild caught fish that really don't look very attractive compared to some of the pictures you see from the actual lake. I think if you take the best looking wild caught fish & breed them you end up with top quality F1's. Not in all cases but selective breeding does work & I'm not talking about inbreeding.


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## Rick_Lindsey (Aug 26, 2002)

It all depends on the aquarist in question. When I (someday) set up a tank with gobies, I'll probably pay just as much for F1 as I could for wild (the only source I found for F1 had similar prices to wild fish elsewhere) because I want a tank-bred fish.

-Rick (the armchair aquarist, who's wife would cry if she thought his fish got scooped out of the lake and sentenced to life in prison in their living room)


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## Longstocking (Aug 26, 2003)

I believe genetically they are the same.

Behavior wise.... there is a huge difference in my experience.


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## mollysgood (Sep 26, 2002)

What kind of behavior differences have you encountered? That sounds interesting.


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## fiupntballr (Jul 7, 2004)

The Wild Caught fish should represent more or less the genetic diversity found in the wild.
Selection does occur in captivity as most mutations lead to delitirious effects and prevent from the fry even developing. I have seen sexual selection in captive bred environments so even then that is still occurring. I think the biggest difference between wild bred and aquarium bred fish is around the parental care of the fry. Breeders stripping females early on can lead to less successful parents when left on their own but this is usually not an issue since those fish are also being stripped.

By the way there is nothing wrong with proper use of selective breeding and in many cases if done correctly can bring out a hardier outcome. So if your interested in good quality fish a good fish breeder could provide hardier fish.


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

Darkside said:


> There is a general consensus that F2 is the last "useful" label that applies to the fish trade.


 now there's a statement that should embarrass the ENTIRE fish keeping hobby!


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Good questions!
I would say from my own experience that WC vs. TR is a matter of availability first and preference second. This can go both ways, in that you can be looking for TR and have only WC available (often with gobies). And, you could be looking for WC for breeding an unusual species but can only come across other hobbyists who have fry for sale because the importers aren't providing WC.

I typically look for TR fish, even though I have WC cyps, gobies, and multies. The reason I look for TR is that I assume they are better adjusted to life in a glass box and that they are relatively free of exotic pests that WC sometimes carry. There is quite a bit of difference between my WC and their fry with behavior. TR are less skittish, and sometimes more colorful.

I also appreciate the sustainability of this hobby, particularly when compared to the salt water industry a few years ago. They are getting better... but still too few species can be bred in captivity, and reef raids and subsequent high mortality are hard to prevent.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

lloyd said:


> Darkside said:
> 
> 
> > There is a general consensus that F2 is the last "useful" label that applies to the fish trade.
> ...


I don't see why that should embarrass the entire hobby. Do you want to spend the time and effort to pedigree your fish through several generations when there may technically be more than 1000 offspring? Hence F2 being the last "useful" label, from this point on the fish are all assumed to be tank raised or farm bred.


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

Darkside said:


> Do you want to spend the time and effort to pedigree your fish through several generations?


 why yes...don't you? :?


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

lloyd said:


> Darkside said:
> 
> 
> > Do you want to spend the time and effort to pedigree your fish through several generations?
> ...


I sure do, its easy to label my fish. The parents are all WC or F1 and I sell the juvies. From there on if someone wants to do a pedigree for the next 10 generations that they produce all the power to them but even cichlids at that point will begin to suffer from inbreeding depression. Generally F3 -∞ will produce similar offspring so there isn't much point in labeling them unless you're interested in line breeding or you're just bored. If you'd like to do that good for you!


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## LED (Aug 3, 2003)

IME and IMO it depends on the fish. One fish type that I do recommend buying Wild are Comps and Calvus because it takes FOREVER to grow a pair out to breeding size. Otherwise with a majority of other fish I like going F1 or F2 and growing them out myself.


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

darkside: i believe your logic exposes the troubling demand this hobby has for wild caught sources. a breeder is not really being responsible, until he has construed a method of self sufficiency for his livestock. and so long as we continue to dump our fish into TR buckets, consumers will never value them. 
species cypho. 'burundi' is a great example, of how we managed to bugger up a perfectly good variant. what was once a grand fish, just a few years ago, is already assumed a mutt in the hobby. if your only foreseeable option for breeder stock, is to pull from a lake, then you are sadly missing my point. IMHO.


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## Longstocking (Aug 26, 2003)

mollysgood said:


> What kind of behavior differences have you encountered? That sounds interesting.


The biggest factor I have found is aggression. Wild caught fish are quite a bit more aggressive towards tank mates. That's the largest difference on a whole. To most people this is a good thing :thumb: This is why I prefer F1. I try and get two lines going in my tanks. But, sometimes out of lack of availability, I end up with wild and f1. Or F2/F1 from different lines.... just examples.

Other differences are species specific. Wild calvus display more predatory behavior for example.


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

LED said:


> IME and IMO it depends on the fish. One fish type that I do recommend buying Wild are Comps and Calvus because it takes FOREVER to grow a pair out to breeding size. Otherwise with a majority of other fish I like going F1 or F2 and growing them out myself.


 and where will your grandchildren source comps or calvus?


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## mollysgood (Sep 26, 2002)

I'm glad I brought this question up. It's great to here everyones experiences with wild caught behavior vs. tank raised behavior. That's one aspect I overlooked, makes sense that wild caught would be more aggressive to other tank mates & show better parental care. I'd imagine that I'd be more aggressive also if I went from an open lake to a wee little tank in comparison. I'm surprised more wild caught fish aren't suicidal. :lol:


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

lloyd said:


> darkside: i believe your logic exposes the troubling demand this hobby has for wild caught sources. a breeder is not really being responsible, until he has construed a method of self sufficiency for his livestock. and so long as we continue to dump our fish into TR buckets, consumers will never value them.
> species cypho. 'burundi' is a great example, of how we managed to bugger up a perfectly good variant. what was once a grand fish, just a few years ago, is already assumed a mutt in the hobby. if your only foreseeable option for breeder stock, is to pull from a lake, then you are sadly missing my point. IMHO.


There isn't anything wrong with my logic. There is no reason to genetically track fish beyond F2 as the traits will be fairly homogeneous. There are very few people who have the means (and almost none who have the inspiration) to line breed successive generations beyond the F2. The demand from the general public to secure quality fish isn't there, so large scale breeding operations won't pedigree their fish. Unfortunately your arguments about fish sources misses my point entirely unless you can demonstrate to me a reason (genetically) to track homogeneous fish through successive generations.
I'll address your concerns anyway, as for pulling from the Lake (we'll use your Front example), it is expensive, but its not like collecting for the aquarium hobby has that much of an impact on the fish population. In fact the amount of fish pulled from the lake with an aquarium as a destination is minuscule compared to the amount of fish harvested for food. There are beaches in Tanganyika right now that have more that $100,000 worth of cichlids spread out on the beach drying for local consumption. I realize this isn't your point but we should always evaluate the environmental impact of fish collection on a case by case basis, as the cichlids of lake Tanganyika are a far different case than say the "galaxy rasbora".
As for tank raised fish, there is nothing wrong with fish that don't have a generation label on them. How do you plan on making consumers value fish that have these generation labels and pedigrees? There simply isn't a demand for this from the average hobbyist so there is no reason to start a specialized supply. Not only that, but the general public do not have the tools to equip themselves with an understanding of the 'genetic' labeling of fish. On average how are people going to respond to a $20 fish that's labeled "F3 back-crossed to F1, Burundi"? People don't even understand some of the less technical language used in genetics (For an example: Number6's frustration at misunderstood terminology can be seen here http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... 6&start=15 ). If there is confusion about the definition of a hybrid, then there is no point in labeling fish beyond what is now common (F2). Your intentions are noble, but at this point in time I can't see any reason to construct pedigrees beyond personal interest and experiments with line breeding.


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## mollysgood (Sep 26, 2002)

I have another question that is related to this topic of discussion. Does anyone know what percent of Wild caught fish are actually wild caught vs being bread and raised using the lake water. I've only herd that some fish that are sold as wild caught are raised using the lake water but are not subjected to the natural selection of growing up in the lake. Is there any truth to this practice?


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## Longstocking (Aug 26, 2003)

That question would best be answered by someone that has been to the lake.... Some day I'll get there !! :?

BUT... when I look at lists the exporters usually say they are bred lake side. Keep in mind.. most of the exporters don't have the supplies to breed a large amount of fish lake side. I have heard of a few fish that this is the case though... due to low numbers in the lake but a high demand. Or the fish is located far from their location so it is more economical to breed the fish lake side than to use the gas ( one of their biggest expenses ) to get their by boat.

Make sense ?? Of course this is what I have heard.... so no actual fact :fish:


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## mollysgood (Sep 26, 2002)

Someday I'll make it there as well. I've been scuba diving all my life growing up in Florida. Can't wait to get there!!! or maybe I'll make a tank big enough to fill my basement & then I could scuba dive with my fish. lol

:dancing:


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## fiupntballr (Jul 7, 2004)

On the tracking past F2 Darkside is totally correct unless you are working on developing lines of fish.


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## wmayes (Oct 22, 2007)

lloyd - I think darksider means that the F2 is the last useful LABEL... He never said that the fish are useless themselves as what seems to be your assumption.


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## frschul (Mar 10, 2004)

How do you know how many generations a line of fish has been bred for ? Some breeders, breed fish others let what ever happens in a tank happens.... Take for instant a tank of fancy show guppies, if you were to leave these fish in a tank for a 18 months, fed them well , did water changes and excellent maintenance at the end of a year and a half all of the offspring would look like absolute junk.... This is because in the small environment anything goes..... But if you had an excellent selective breeding program.... and you established a line breeding program ... then I don't have a problem getting fish from you.... Brother to Sister crosses catches up to you much sooner than later.... any way don't get me started about genetics/breeding ..... and besides I like to study the wild fish vs the tank raised..... for example I had **** breeding JULIDOCHROMIS MARLERI , the tank raised version no problem.... I like the challenge of wild fish.


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

wmayes said:


> lloyd - I think darksider means that the F2 is the last useful LABEL... He never said that the fish are useless themselves as what seems to be your assumption.


 yes, i both understood, and agree, with darkside's remark. what i find discouraging, and what i feel should embarrass the hobby, is the fact that tags like F2 and TR have become synonymous with poor quality, risks of cross breeding, and decreased dollar values. the embarrassment IS the label. or better yet, the lack of respect for it within the hobby. unfortunately, the fish go with the label, so they themselves then become useless. 99.9% of all LFS stock fall into this category, which just leads back to continued demand for w.c., so we can reassure ourselves we are not buying junk. IMHO, we waste a lot of fish.


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## fiupntballr (Jul 7, 2004)

I have to disagree with that lloyd. I buy TR fish (cichlids in particular) and find many of them very high quality.

If someone makes that general assumption, that tank raised fish are of inferior quality past F2, then I believe they are just misinformed.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I know this goes against an article written on the subject by one of the Mods here but Tang Lakeside breeding is not a huge enterprise and its done in only a few places. Burundi is the place it is done on a largish scale. Its an easy mistake to make as other collectors can have huge pools of wild collected cichlids and waiting for order which look like breeding pools.
No one has yet mentioned the other difference between WC and none WC. WC are adapted to the wild environment. This can mean the feeding adaptions are more pronounced. Teeth worn and replaced by younger teeth used for rock scraping, jaw muscles less atrified, lips bigger from abrasion from feeding on rocks. They are also size for size far older than the tank or pond raised equivolent. Preditory fish far more preditory.

Also please do not listen to shops who tell you they are quarantined by the exporter. They may be a bit or maybe put on the next flight. Shops should quarantine and treat WC for common wild ailments like parasites for two or three weeks before sale. Good ones will show you where and how they do this.
Owning and running a shop or mail order business does not mean they know how to treat WC fish, so be careful where you get them from.

Aggression is not always greatest in WC.
Some, at least, are more mellow. :thumb:

I hate to say it but the hobby bred fish are often the poorest ones. Professionally bred fish can be lousy too. Its partly about genetic diversity but also how it is done.

Funny, I found keeping and breeding the stuff from the local fish shops far more challenging than WC. 

This may shock some of you but WC here in the UK, if you know were to look, are cheaper than tank raised in many cases.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

The original question stemmed from the genetic similarities of WC fish vs those fish that are tank raised. Environmental pressures influencing fish phenotypes is an entirely new argument.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Question was about whether WC are worth the extra money I thought?
So any difference is relevant?


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

[quote="Darkside" How do you plan on making consumers value fish that have these generation labels and pedigrees? There simply isn't a demand for this from the average hobbyist so there is no reason to start a specialized supply.[/quote]

line breeders get away with it. :x :lol: names like Wayne Ng and Jack Wattley come to mind as good examples. their fish are constantly in demand and they consistently sell above market averages.
so...getting back to the original Q about wild fish values: if the species is abundant, then unless the wild fish exhibits a personality, or physical trait, that cannot be replicated in TR production, it's value should not likely be more than any other. some common denominators that help to elevate value? rarity, famous name association, and of course, the ultimate combo...rarity with famous name association. :fish:


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## dogofwar (Apr 5, 2004)

Given the choice, I choose F1 fish over wild fish.

Price is a big factor ($5 vs. $50/fish) but also F1 fish tend to be healthier (no parasites, no stress from collection and shipping), and less psycho aggressive than wild ones....with the same or better color, larger size, etc.

Some people swear by wild fish and will argue that even one generation of captive breeding makes them somehow "unpure." Having kept lots of wild, F1, and F2 fish, I just don't buy it.

I think this argument comes mostly from those who wish to play "my fish is rarer than yours" contests.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Now we come to the crunch. Where do you want your money to go? There is the argument that WC fish support a good industry that increases the value of this resource and increases its value to locals making it more likely to be protected. Buying first generation fish also helps this by helping those who buy wild caught fish and supporting the collection and value of wild stocks.
Money for money first generation from wild are generally best for most hobbyists (like myself) I think, TB for generations should be cheaper but not always are.
If you have the cash and want WC fish with both their advantages and disadvantages and are willing and able to give them the extra care (and treatments) they may require then go for them. :thumb: I can not say you will have success but I can say its a a good ride. :lol:
Is your dealer a catch and ship guy. What are his pre treatment systems? What does he charge for this? Is it worth the extra money to you or can you do it better yourself?

And finally are you willing to do the background checks to ensure the WC are WC and not pond bred? Are you happy with African pond bred? Are American Pond bred better? Are the first generation fish you see for sale really first generation?

Wish I could help on these points but still researching (the market here) myself.


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## Multies (Mar 9, 2007)

i like F1s better then wc.
wc seem to die easier(to me) and F1 do look better then the wilds.

and theres the topic again, in nature, they can pick their mates, in ponds or tanks, they cant.
so if they really do pond breed them, they wont be "wc" but more F1.

im sure darkside knows a ton about this stuff. am i right :wink:

you can risk it, save up and get wc fish, but how would you know if they are not wc? maybe just f1's with good colours or a TR fish with good colours?

wc fish do have certain traits that TR fish dont and alot of the times, wc fish are adults. that means less waiting.

in the end, its your choice if you want to believe it. but do we really need to categorize wc fish from f1 just for $? fish are fish.


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## Reel North (Sep 23, 2006)

You need to be able to trust who the importer is, and also the exporter. When we import WC, they come in a little beat up, full of parasites, and generally not in amazing condition, because they dont get to eat 2 or 3 times a day, get chased and hunted, and dont really have an easy time of things in their natural environment. That is why quarantine is so important.

You need to know your importer trusts the exporter from Africa as well.

A big reason to buy WC is to be able to sell off F1 fry, to all the people who dont want to purchase, and spend the dollars, on WC.

The thing that really bothers me is people who sell F1 or F2 asWC for really cheap prices - it does the hobby absolutely no favours.

We can show the shipping info for all of our fish, to show where they come from, and we know our guy in Africa doesnt Tank raise on the lakeshore.


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

Reel North said:


> The thing that really bothers me is people who sell F1 or F2 asWC for really cheap prices - it does the hobby absolutely no favours.


 -this from the same guy, who advertised w.c. moba at the cheapest price ever in the gta. :lol:


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

Multies said:


> i like F1s better then wc.
> wc seem to die easier(to me) and F1 do look better then the wilds.
> 
> and theres the topic again, in nature, they can pick their mates, in ponds or tanks, they cant.
> ...


lol... We do need to categorize the fish as WC or F1 because the prices reflect the risk and cost of importing them. For obvious reason, breeding the F1 generation isn't nearly as costly as importing them from Africa. WC fish will have a slightly different phenotype than tank raised fish do to environmental factors.


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## Multies (Mar 9, 2007)

still, were only labelling them for the cost. 
i mean, if i would choose between wc and f1s at the store, if the f1 looked better, i would get the f1's. if the wc looked better, i would pick the wc's.

but how can we know if they were actually caught in the wilds and not pond bred? 
the shipping quote can be there, saying its from africa, but we wont know if they were pond bred.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

Multies said:


> still, were only labelling them for the cost.
> i mean, if i would choose between wc and f1s at the store, if the f1 looked better, i would get the f1's. if the wc looked better, i would pick the wc's.
> 
> but how can we know if they were actually caught in the wilds and not pond bred?
> the shipping quote can be there, saying its from africa, but we wont know if they were pond bred.


How do we know that they're F1?


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