# Tank Mates? EBJD & Texas? Mating?



## mlancaster (Jul 24, 2009)

Hi,

I hope everyone is doing well. I recently purchased a really nice 5" EBJD. He/she is in a 55 gallon with a strange looking 5"-6"pearl Texas (carpintis) (short, fat, low snout) and a 7" Bahia red.

*So first question, what do you think of the Texas (see pics below): hybrid? Inbred to be short? Just regular pearl scale?...*

Now this tank is a little crowded but the strange thing is they seem to get along. The Texas and EBJD quickly became nice to each other and share a cave the Texas dug out once the EBJD was in the tank. They seem like mates, occasionally fluttering and showing off to eachonther (no lip locking). They have been together for a week.

*Second question, is the EBJD a female?*

The twist is that this Texas lived with a different female EBJD when there were smaller, maybe 3"-4", and defiantly appeared to be attempting to spawn and were protective of their shared space. No eggs. EBJD one day was dead with no serious wounds or signs of sickness (dark color for a month prior to death). The new EBJD is a much stronger better looking fish than the first one, who had a deformed fin. However, the new EBJD has become slightly darker/blotchier since being added to the tank.

*Third question, do you think it is safe to keep the new EBJD with the Texas: To early to tell? If spawning, is it a bad idea? do you think the texas is fertile?*

The other option would be putting the EBJD in a smaller 38 gallon long tank, by him/her self (some dithers). Or I guesse I could get rid of the 55 and get a longer bigger tank.
Thanks,
Matt
Here are some pics:

With a flash








With flash








With out flash








With ot flash


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

That H. Carpinte looks to be either severely stunted, to have a birth defect, or be a hybrid with a Severum. If you like it, that's great---but I definitely would not try to breed it. Especially not with an EBJD.

It's hard to say if aggression will be a problem if they try to spawn. I wouldn't risk it, since they fry won't be worth anything.


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## mlancaster (Jul 24, 2009)

Hi oldcatfish, 
Yeah I agree, I did not plan on having any breeding going on in this tank. I though the EBJD I purchased was a male, can you tell if he/she is a male? Would it be unreasonable to try and produce some BGJD fry in a 38 long, or would there be too much aggression. Does the EBJD look good for breeding?

Thank you for the help.

-Matt


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

The fish you called a Texas is definitely a hybrid... I don't know what you "should" call it but I would discourage you from calling it a Txas and would highly discourage you from referring to it as a carpintis. In all reality, it;s not a "big deal" but you may give people the wrongidea of what a Texas or a carpintis look like...

The Blue Dempsey looks good... They are very difficult to sex and most of them that survive to adulthood turn out to be male. I've raised a couple Blue females and have seen a few others that weren't mine... I do not see any of the typical female'ish characteristics... but I cannot say yours is male for sure...

I wouldn't suggest keeping a Dempsey (blue or otherwise0 for life in a 38 gal... but keeping a 5" pair in it long enough to produce a brood of fry should not be a problem.

As for using your Blue as a breeder... He has good color, good head shape and nice looking fins... It's better looking than most young adult Blues we see...


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## Leucistic Guy (Jul 8, 2009)

Thats a Blood Parrot/FH hybrid for sure I just saw a few in one of my LFS.
He had a breeding pair, they look pretty cool picture a Blood parrot with a Flowerhorn colors & flowerline.
Not my kind of fish but mos def interesting.

IMO I wouldn't let these 2 spawn. The EBJD look too nice to let that happen.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Leucistic Guy said:


> IMO I wouldn't let these 2 spawn. The EBJD look too nice to let that happen.


Just to mention... it is exceptionally unlikely that the exact same color "gene" is located on the exact same strand of DNA and is structured in the exact same way between the Dempsey and the Hybrid (or any other non Dempsey fish) and is affected by the exact same proteins in the exact same way...

And all of that jabber means it is exceptionally unlikely that the Blue coloration would carry on to any fish hybridized with a Blue Dempsey...

To state this as "fact" it would have to be thoroughly experimented with for each species considered... but scientifically speaking... it is at the very least, exceptionally unlikely...


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## mlancaster (Jul 24, 2009)

Hi Toby,

Thank you for the insight, I originally thought it was a hybrid with a parrot, now maybe thinking a green severum. I donâ€™t know, but either way I do like that fish. I do not want to keep the EBJD in a 38 gallon for too long either. I am only concerned that the hybrid short Texas guy is going to be too aggressive with the EBJD when mating does not work out. I know from experience that Texas and in this case a hybrid with a Texas can be very mean when spawning. The only plus, which is kind of funny, is the hybrid is so short he is not very fast. My Bahia red easily escapes his aggression; but I do not know if the EBJD will be so lucky in this tank size (55 gallon) with the crowd.

I know it is very difficult to sex EBJDs. Have you ever heard of two males acting this way: i.e. sharing a cave, shaking in front of each other, tail flapping, etc? That is why I feel as though the EBJD is a female; however there is no real sign.
One other note: is there any way to edit you original posting in this forum so I can change it to Texas hybrid?

Thanks for the thoughts.

-Matt


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## Leucistic Guy (Jul 8, 2009)

^^^^^^^^^^^^


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Check the top right corner of the post you want to edit... but I think that you can only edit your most recent post in each thread... but Iâ€™m not 100% sure on that... But no harm done in the "mislabeling" done here as the following conversation addressed the topic...

I base my judgment regarding gender of Blue Dempseys primarily on behavioral interactions with Dempseys of a known sex... At there just aren't visible traits that easily sex them...

I've had female Cichlids "spawn" together... but never males... But I'm not sure if being a hybrid makes it hard for the Dempsey to distinguish the gender of it's tank mate... and being blue might just be sexy enough to turn the hybrid gay...

Are you positive the hybrid is male? I wouldn't even know where to start trying to sex it... I'm not criticizing the fish, I'm just unfamiliar and don't know what differences hybridization may create...

Ya like my jabber LG? lol


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## mlancaster (Jul 24, 2009)

Yeah I do not want them to mate (the Hybrid & EBJD), but I do want to keep the hybrid, and of course the EBJD. Do you recommend putting the EBJD in a 38 gallon (36 inches long), I donâ€™t really have room in my apartment for another tank, but I could possible squeeze a 55 on this one stand that I have and get rid of a tank. I know a 38 is too small for JDs, do you guys think a 55 would be necessary for the EBJ in a tank solo? Maybe with a JD mate?

Thanks for the thoughts.

-Matt


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

A 3' x 1' footprint is pretty tight for a Dempsey long term... Many Blue Dempseys do not get as large as standard Dempseys, but I have a 9"+ Blue Dempsey that would bite your finger if he heard you say that...

IMO, a 4' x 1' 55 gal is "good enough" for a Dempsey (blue or otherwise) but a 4' x 1.5' 75 gal is "good" for them... If your Blue Dempsey had the potential to get 10" long, it may not quite make it if kept in a small'ish tank...

I would get a bigger tank for it... but then again I'm the kind of guy who regularly considers getting rid of the couch as that's someplace I could fit an 8' tank...

If they get along now, enjoy them together in the 55 for now... if a problem arises, move one of the two into the 38 gal... If it appears it needs a bigger tank, then get the second 55 gal... if your still really enjoying them and have the money, upgrade to double 75 gals... if your still enjoying them, sell the couch...

While on one hand I thoroughly support having a practical game plan from the start... since you already own both fish... and both fish appear content/happy... and you have a back up tank if problems arise... your in a good spot, just enjoy them...

PS - Since the hybrid is short bodied and slow moving, I thin kit would make a better candidate for the 3' tank than the Dempsey...


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## mlancaster (Jul 24, 2009)

Toby_H said:


> I base my judgment regarding gender of Blue Dempseys primarily on behavioral interactions with Dempseys of a known sex... At there just aren't visible traits that easily sex them...
> 
> I've had female Cichlids "spawn" together... but never males... But I'm not sure if being a hybrid makes it hard for the Dempsey to distinguish the gender of it's tank mate... and being blue might just be sexy enough to turn the hybrid gay...
> 
> Are you positive the hybrid is male? I wouldn't even know where to start trying to sex it... I'm not criticizing the fish, I'm just unfamiliar and don't know what differences hybridization may create...


Thanks Toby, Some cool insight on the femal/female spawning.

As for the hybrid, i based my male assement on his elongate dorsal fin and dominate precense in the tank. However, you are right, I can not be sure on the sex of either of these fish.

Any ideas?


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

I feel many people rely far too heavy on "pointy fins" to sex a fish...

The female Blue Dempsey I have now has longer / pointier fins than any standard Dempsey I've ever owned...

I also have a tank full of Dempsey growouts and the dominant females have longer / pointier fins than their subdominant male siblings...

Then there are many species where full adult males typically do have longer fins... but females still have long/pointy fins... So unless you are comparing an unknown fish to a same species fish of a known gender... i wouldn't put any weight on this what so ever...

With Trimacs, which are what Flowerhorns mostly resemble, females have a dark spot on their dorsal fin which your fish does not. But I'm not sure if that sexing trait carries over to FlowerHorns much less your hybrid...

As for dominance... I had a 6' round 300 gal that was dominanted by a female Oscar... just because she was the biggest fish and had the biggest mouth... I've had quite a few female fish that weren't afraid to strut their stuff provided they were tougher than their tankmates... I had a female Dempsey eat the face off of a larger male Blue Dempsey during lip locking...

Some chicks are tough...


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## underOATH87 (Apr 14, 2007)

I kinda skipped threw and skimmed, but here's my input, EBJD is most likely a male, yes by fin shape, but going by what Toby said, not only that, he has a lot of blue and the same characteristics as most males, like Ormeds, Rapps, Hollywoods for comparison.

But who knows, it could fade completely out like most females do and still have that fin shape then your still left guessing what the heck it could be, lol.

As for that hybird...hmmm. It's definately interesting, LOOKING, but I wouldn't keep it. I'd trade it in for something else as a tankmate for the EBJD. It def looks like some BP is in there cuz of it's mouth, and reminds me of a severum at the same time, but then it's coloring and patterns throw me off.

But I'm not an expert with any of this. Just going by my observations of what I've seen.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

*sigh*... it is not just stunted... it is a selectively bred trait... just like those short bodied convicts... not a hybrid... just a selectively bred mutant Herichthys carpintis.

they are known as a Short Bodied carpintis. the variant, if I remember correctly, was started in Thailand, like all short bodied fish are... again, it is NOT A HYBRID  A carpintis that was selectively bred in the same fashion that V. synspilum was to create a BP (which is a cross between a SB synspilum and a midas... not a severum).

you can find these SB carpintis on almost any flowerhorn selling site, www.aquaticwonderland.com has them often. as does Aquabid.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

gage is probably right on this one....I wasn't aware that H. Carpinte had been selectively bred for this. It makes perfect sense.


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## mlancaster (Jul 24, 2009)

Hi All,

I have gone through these same debates with others regarding the Texas/hybrid (which i will call "Texas" because that is what we call him at our house). He/she (any thoughts on sex?) was purchased from a LFS as a dwarf Texas for a smaller tank that was empty besides dithers, he obviously grew and was moved to a bigger tank, which he took over. I at first thought a hybrid. Then as his colors progressed and i did some research i began to think Texas Carpinte bread to be short bodied; however, I was never really sure. I do now lean to gage's response; a selectively bread to have a unusual shape (shot bodied) H Carpintis.

Either way, the Texas seams to love hanging out and protecting EBJDs. Weather male or femal, which i can not tell with this EBJD pictured above.

I enjoy my "Texas", does any one think it is not safe for the EBJD to be in the same 55 gallon tank with the Texas ? Should the EBJD be moved to a new tank? Personally, I like Toby's idea, but am open to thoughts otherwise.

Thanks for all the information and tips.

-Matt


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