# Help with cycling tank with small fish.



## Dadwith2boys (Mar 3, 2014)

I am not looking for a debate on fishless or not, for cycling...

We are on week two of a 120 gallon tank with approx. 10 goldfish. My ammonia is up to about 3ppm for about 5 days straight and still 0 nitrites and 0 nitrates. Is there something else I should do, or am I just not waiting long enough?

Thank you for your advise!


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## jeffkro (Feb 13, 2014)

Dadwith2boys said:


> I am not looking for a debate on fishless or not, for cycling...
> 
> We are on week two of a 120 gallon tank with approx. 10 goldfish. My ammonia is up to about 3ppm for about 5 days straight and still 0 nitrites and 0 nitrates. Is there something else I should do, or am I just not waiting long enough?
> 
> Thank you for your advise!


You can try adding safe start to jump start the bacteria colony, or you can bum some established filter media if you know someone with an established tank. Feeder gold fish are famous for coming equipped with disease so you might want to make sure they are all healthy for a few weeks before you add fish.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

I would think you are looking at at least 4 weeks to cycle the tank. I don't have issues with cycling this way but, as jeffkro says, goldfish are known to carry disease.


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## Dadwith2boys (Mar 3, 2014)

Okay Thank you!!! I guess it is just a matter of patience..  
And if I understand from what I read and reread that the ammonia will / should do down and the nitrites will go up then down and finally the nitrates will go up.. ???....


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## Boe82 (Mar 6, 2014)

That is the gist of it, the bacteria that converts ammonia to nitrite, and the bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate are different tho, so however long it takes for the bacteria to grow to convert the ammonia to nitrites, you can usually expect it to take a little longer to grow the bacteria that convert nitrites to nitrates, so as you put it, it is just a matter of patience.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Poor goldfish. Why would you choose to burn and poison them when it is entirely unnessary?


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## Kalost (Feb 27, 2013)

Did you read his first sentence?


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## AfricanLove (Jan 2, 2012)

I agree anways. Plus It is faster and cleaner. You dont have to worry about the poop or removing the gold fish


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Kalost said:


> Did you read his first sentence?


Yes I did.

The OP volunteered the information about *intentionally harming animals *and saying he isn't looking for a debate... why would I condone such behavior? By starting this thread as the OP did shows he knows the consequences of his actions, but chooses to do it anyway.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Dadwith2boys said:


> I am not looking for a debate on fishless or not, for cycling...
> 
> We are on week two of a 120 gallon tank with approx. 10 goldfish. My ammonia is up to about 3ppm for about 5 days straight and still 0 nitrites and 0 nitrates. Is there something else I should do, or am I just not waiting long enough?
> 
> Thank you for your advise!


Well, setting aside the consequences of your method, you're looking at somewhere in the range of 7-14 days before you see ammonia being processed. Expect to wait twice as long for nitrite to start being oxidized. To speed things up, if you have access to healthy filter media, use it, some stores will give out samples. Some retail products are helpful, Tetra SafeStart and Dr. Tim's One and Only are two that I would recommend.
If you intend to proceed with your current method, might I recommend adding Prime every 36 hours to offset the toxic ammonia, it will still be available for the ammonia oxidizing bacteria to consume.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

triscuit said:


> Kalost said:
> 
> 
> > Did you read his first sentence?
> ...


You're my kind of moderator. No BS. :thumb:

Dadwith2boys- For future setups, buy a bottle of ammonia. You can get a small bottle for two dollars. Probably cheaper than the goldfish. It also makes for a pathogen and disease free setup. Goldfish are known disease carriers and are likely to leave all sorts of nastiness in your aquarium for your cichlids so soak up.

Fishless cycling puts the fish in conditions that compromise their immune system, among other things. A fish with a compromised immune system is more likely to get sick. This amplifies any diseases that the fish were carrying and makes it more likely that your cichlids, once added, will suffer from these diseases as well.

Fish-in cycling is really a very ancient way of doing things and is reckless. I understand you opened with "I'm not looking to debate fish in vs fishless cycling", but I still feel compelled to say something. If you had stated that you beat your children but were not looking to debate beating vs not beating children, I would say something.


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## smitty814 (Sep 27, 2012)

triscuit said:


> Kalost said:
> 
> 
> > Did you read his first sentence?
> ...


Why do the fish need to be harmed? With water changes and the use of Prime (as GTZ said) to bind the ammonia there is no reason for the fish to die or be harmed. Help and the exchange of ideas is what this forum is about. Not "public" shame.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

smitty814 said:


> triscuit said:
> 
> 
> > Kalost said:
> ...


We're not shaming the guy, we're trying to set him straight. Fish-in cycling is hard on the fishkeeper and the fish and is totally unnecessary. I hope I haven't said anything in this thread that will earn me a reprimand. I'm just being honest and have the welfare of aquarium fish in mind.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

I agree with triscuit, but even if you don't care for the goldfish, cycling with them has technical limitations. If you cycle a large tank with 10 small goldfish, at the end it will be cycled for that small bioload. If you then proceed to fully stock your tank, it will go through another cycle. Fishless cycling allows you to accommodate your full stocking level from day one - and even if you don't fully stock right away, the bacteria you grew with fishless cycling will lie dormant and are ready to spring back to action quickly when needed.

Regarding reading or not reading stuff, I warmly recommend the sticky in this forum for people's reading pleasure. There is only one, and it harps on about fishless cycling for a reason. You can either follow the advice of this forum or ignore it, but you can't have it both ways.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

smitty814 said:


> Why do the fish need to be harmed? With water changes and the use of Prime (as GTZ said) to bind the ammonia there is no reason for the fish to die or be harmed.


Any exposure to ammonia or nitrite is harmful and the OP willingly and knowingly subjected fish to unsuitable water conditions when it is entirely unnecessary. Prime and water changes are an excellent plan for what to do now to mitigate the damage, but these fish have weeks of burning gills and gasping ahead, let alone any diseases that will happily take advantage of their compromised immune systems.

I will continue to help folks who didn't know about nitrogen cycling, or had a tank crash, or don't understand the cycle but are *trying to do no harm* to their pets.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

triscuit said:


> I will continue to help folks who didn't know about nitrogen cycling, or had a tank crash, or don't understand the cycle but are *trying to do no harm* to their pets.


 =D>


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

why are we assuming that this was intentional. while i do agree that the fishless cycle is the way to go, maybe the op had no knowledge of nitrogen cycle and only went on bad advice from his lfs. maybe everywhere he goes turns into a debate about fishless cycling and he gets no answers. whats done is done, why not try to help him at this point?


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

sumthinfishy said:


> whats done is done, why not try to help him at this point?


Because-


triscuit said:


> Kalost said:
> 
> 
> > Did you read his first sentence?
> ...


And also, he has already received the correct information in this thread. It'll take 4 weeks or longer. Yes ammonia rises then nitrite rises and ammonia drops then nitrate rises and ammonia and nitrite drop. Gold fish are disease prone, especially feeders, use prime to detoxify ammonia and nitrite. He has also been told that cycling with a small bioload means a mini cycle when you stock with more fish later on.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

i understand he has recieved the answer he needs, but back to my original question, why do we think this was intentional from the start. i agree he has opened himself up to the debate by posting in the first place. i also agree he now knows what he has done was wrong. i still would like to hear from op on this matter though, because i am only wondering if he was aware of what he was doing when he started cycling with fish or was he a newb following bad advice and is now just trying to fix it. if thats the case then i see know need to crucify him if he was unaware at the onset. however if he was aware, and only used the goldfish bcause he figured that id didnt matter whether they live or die is a completely different issue. i hope that i am explaining myself correctly, because i dont want it to sound as though i am defending his actions.


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## Bikeman48088 (Nov 13, 2013)

pablo111 said:


> sumthinfishy said:
> 
> 
> > whats done is done, why not try to help him at this point?
> ...


Since bacteria can divide every 20-30 minutes, I would bet that, once established in almost any quantity, increasing the load isn't an issue unless their own produced toxic metabolites retard their multiplication.

And, for the record, I don't get indignant when someone cycles their tank with fish, feeds their fish a live fish or runs through a school of dithers in their African Cichlid tank any more than I do when I bait my hook with a minnow in my attempt to catch a nice eating sized yellow perch through the ice.


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## smitty814 (Sep 27, 2012)

+++++1^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Thank you bikeman. :thumb:


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

The OP was provided the link to the Fishless Cycling article in a different topic so he is either aware of it, didn't see it or chose not to follow it.

He has been provided the answer to his question on the first page of the post. I don't think that any additional comments or arguments will change his mind at this point. It is what it is.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Deeda said:


> The OP was provided the link to the Fishless Cycling article in a different topic so he is either aware of it, didn't see it or chose not to follow it.
> 
> He has been provided the answer to his question on the first page of the post. I don't think that any additional comments or arguments will change his mind at this point. It is what it is.


Agreed. Any additional comments should be in relation to the cycling process. There's no need for additional criticism regarding the method chosen.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Apparently I wasn't clear enough. If you feel the need to reply to this thread, please ensure that the content is directly related to the subject at hand, which is cycling your tank.
Off topic comments will be removed and may result in the thread being locked.


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## smitty814 (Sep 27, 2012)

So...lock it. Any responces are being deleted


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Just those that don't pertain to the topic.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Bikeman48088 said:


> Since bacteria can divide every 20-30 minutes, I would bet that, once established in almost any quantity, increasing the load isn't an issue unless their own produced toxic metabolites retard their multiplication.


Heterotrophic bacteria reproduce as described, however ammonia and nitrite oxidizing bacteria take between 15-20 hours.


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## smitty814 (Sep 27, 2012)

As has been mentioned, heterotrophic bacteria directly compete with autotrophic nitrifying bacteria for both oxygen and surface area. In fact, they hold the upper hand in this regard. Research has identified that even in environments low in organic carbon, heterotrophic bacteria occupy 50% of the available surface area of an aquarium. The only factor limiting their population, preventing them from over running the tank, consuming the oxygen and surface area required by the autotrophic nitrifying bacteria, is the amount of organics the tank contains.
http://www.oscarfish.com/article-home/w ... teria.html
I don't know what this has to do with cycling a tank but GTZ has brought it up.


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