# Are Parrots taboo?



## cray (Feb 4, 2010)

Im new and while I have been on this site for the past few weeks, I have not seen any discussion of Parrots. They are cichlids right??

As of right now, I know nothing about them, but other websites (based on a google search of parrot cichlid) have bad things to say about man playing God.

I even saw some in the LFS that had I "then a heart" U on them. I guess they are injected or something?

Whats the deal with these fish?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i personally think they are hideous and have no interest in them what so ever


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## barst00lprophet (Jan 24, 2010)

I think they are a new world hybrid...so you should repost your question in another area


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## cray (Feb 4, 2010)

Posted this in african section earlier and it was suggested I post somewhere else. Here is where it landed.

Im new and while I have been on this site for the past few weeks, I have not seen any discussion of Parrots. They are cichlids right??

As of right now, I know nothing about them, but other websites (based on a google search of parrot cichlid) have bad things to say about man playing God.

I even saw some in the LFS that had I "then a heart" U on them. I guess they are injected or something?

Whats the deal with these fish?


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## mrs.som (Nov 14, 2009)

Oh my gosh...they've even gone so far as to put an "I love you" on them? That is really abhorrent!
Yes, they are definitely injected in addition to being hybrids. You will find most responsible fish keepers do not like hybrids but there seems to be a special dislike for blood parrots, perhaps because they look more deformed than other hybrids. 
Personally, I don't agree with "on-purpose" hybrids and try not to support LFS that carry them.

Just my two cents...


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## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

mrs.som said:


> Oh my gosh...they've even gone so far as to put an "I love you" on them? That is really abhorrent!


They also cut off their tails to make them "heart" shaped.

They're a horrible abomination IMO. It's not even necessarily the hybrid thing - though not a fan; it's the mutated deformed gimpiness of them. There are so many naturally-occur gorgeous cichlids, these things should be abolished from the hobby completely in my opinion. I can dream :?


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## scrubjay (Oct 25, 2009)

They are a hybrid New World cichlid, sort of a novelty fish. Most people in this forum prefer true species. But if you do a search on "parrot" here you may find more information.


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

i keep a 220 gallon tank in my foyer with 16 parrot cichlids. they share that tank with a pair of turquiose severum, 4- L240 pleco, and a trio of young irwini megacats. they are a friendly, hand feeding type fish that rarely causes disruption. their aggression level, on a cichlid scale, is zero, which makes them an ideal big community fish. and they can get big. 3 of mine are 'king kong' parrots, measuring 5" in girth and growing fast. they are messy, big appetites that will test your filtration function ability, yet require low current to accommodate their poor swimming skills, so can be a challenge to keep in that regard.
they also initiate many conversation, similar to this thread, regarding the care, health, and breeding of fish in general, which (IMHO) qualify them as ambassadors to the hobby. i keep over 20 aquarium in my house, including some rare and magnificent examples of freshwater species (18" stingray, L046 and other hypan. pleco, cypho moba, mega cats, 12-14" tiger datnoids, etc.), but most conversations about care and compassion begin and end while watching my school of parrots. 
try to ignore the hoard of hitleresque 'abolish them' conversations. these quirky fish can be fun to keep.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*lloyd*  Wow... gotta admit... surprised on this revelation! Shame on me for my assumptions! Perhaps we share a similar outlook on cichlids/fish?

I classify cichlid breeds and species into two categories... pet fish and wild-type.

Pet fish includes domestic Discus, parrot cichlids, breeds from hybrid origins and line bred fish when the traits are not standard for the original species.

The Wild types include actual species including anything line bred to still resemble the wild type form.

Nothing wrong in my eye with the pet breeds including Parrot cichlids, same rules apply for breeding in my mind. 
Breed true, outcross with purpose and above all... accept ALL your responsibilities including the final responsibility. :thumb:


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## Cento (Mar 30, 2005)

SinisterKisses said:


> ..They also cut off their tails to make them "heart" shaped....


 Not all of them are mutilated like that, at least not at reputable shops. I indeed HAVE seen some pretty messed up blood parrots (Valentine's day editions with hearts tattooed on them and their tails cut into heart shapes...  ).

But the ones you see with little or no tail aren't necessarily cut off, but are selectively bred like that. Its true, there are some farms out there in Asia that are doing some pretty freaking things with the fish. From what I've read, I believe this fish was created from crossing a Severum and a Midas cichlid. But then again, the vast majority of mollies, platies, and swordtails found in shops were "created".

I agree with *Numbers6*, as long as everyone knows these are just "pets" and not for "fish conservation", and as long as no one releases this into the wild (I know it happens.. :roll: ), then its okay. A lot of these breeds are for kids to enjoy and eventually they'll enter into the hobby. No one is being fooled into thinking its an original species. No harm, no foul. IMO, this fad will die eventually, and so will this breed, which doesn't affect the course of things in nature (It was "created" by man, it will die by man's hand...).

Its just when it comes to "tattooed" and mutilated fish, that my blood begins to boil... :?


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

Cento said:


> ...Its just when it comes to "tattooed" and mutilated fish, that my blood begins to boil... :?


 we've been doing it to dogs and other domestics for years. i don't see much difference between a parrot cichlid, a dog with docked tail and ears, or a pink poodle to match my purse. i can only wish that fish are having as much fun as those example.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

lloyd said:


> Cento said:
> 
> 
> > ...Its just when it comes to "tattooed" and mutilated fish, that my blood begins to boil... :?
> ...


Don't have any of those either. Just can't quite make myself do it, even though I do admire some of those dogs.


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## mrs.som (Nov 14, 2009)

I agree with DJRansome...I don't agree with the other "modifications" either such as docking, declawing, debarking etc. etc. The only way I would get a dog or cat with those modifications is if they were from a shelter or rescue and it had already been done.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

mrs.som said:


> I agree with DJRansome...I don't agree with the other "modifications" either such as docking, declawing, debarking etc. etc. The only way I would get a dog or cat with those modifications is if they were from a shelter or rescue and it had already been done.


Except in many cases, these are done for a specific reason. These days, some of those reasons are no longer valid, but in many cases they still are. Many hunting dogs tails are docked. If they weren't, and they were out in the field... being hunted, or simply going for a walk off leash, there is a strong possibility that their tails could shatter. (I've seen it a few times). The pain of a puppy, to dock the tail, seems a lot more humane than seeing a bloodied, broken tail happen time and again.


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## mrs.som (Nov 14, 2009)

Fogelhund, thanks for bringing that to my attention, I had no idea that was an issue. 
I should say then that I don't agree with it for "ornamental" purposes or for the sake of human convenience (i.e. declawing).


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## Robtheheretic (Nov 14, 2009)

the same things go for the ears on dog alot of bogs ears that get real nasty thats why some get there ears docked but this is a less common pratice any more but cockerspanuls for how ever you spell it is a good example there tails a docked cus they get real long and are not strong so they break like twigs there arnt docked so much any more but owners have to clean there ears all the time my parents have clean theres daily some times more if its been raining or the snow is high


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

a fish's tail is more important than a dog's

some dog's tails, like cattle dogs, where originally docked out of safety for the dog (not getting it stepped on by cows) and it's continued out of tradition and such, but a dog does not need it's tail

a fish needs it's tail and there is no advantage to the fish by cutting any part of it off


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## Robtheheretic (Nov 14, 2009)

i dont think any ones arguing its a good thing to cut a fishs tail espically on parrots they are bad swimers to start with


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

cjacob316 said:


> a fish's tail is more important than a dog's
> 
> some dog's tails, like cattle dogs, where originally docked out of safety for the dog (not getting it stepped on by cows) and it's continued out of tradition and such, but a dog does not need it's tail
> 
> a fish needs it's tail and there is no advantage to the fish by cutting any part of it off


Aesthetics.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Fogelhund said:


> mrs.som said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with DJRansome...I don't agree with the other "modifications" either such as docking, declawing, debarking etc. etc. The only way I would get a dog or cat with those modifications is if they were from a shelter or rescue and it had already been done.
> ...


I get that but I still have the issue. So I shopped around until I found a dog breed for which that is not necessary. Luckily no such problem with fish! :thumb:


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

Robtheheretic said:


> i dont think any ones arguing its a good thing to cut a fishs tail espically on parrots they are bad swimers to start with


i just don't think comparing it to a dog is appropriate


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

cjacob316 said:


> Robtheheretic said:
> 
> 
> > i dont think any ones arguing its a good thing to cut a fishs tail espically on parrots they are bad swimers to start with
> ...


Why not?


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## josmoloco (Aug 23, 2008)

Because dogs don't use their tails to move around!

Its more like cutting off a cat's tail and whiskers......


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

josmoloco said:


> Because dogs don't use their tails to move around!
> 
> Its more like cutting off a cat's tail and whiskers......


There's no real reason to dock your rottweiler's tale, just as there is no real reason to dock your fishes. I think they make a good comparison.


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## josmoloco (Aug 23, 2008)

No, docking a tail of a dog doesn't effect its life, but a fish's tail does!


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

josmoloco said:


> No, docking a tail of a dog doesn't effect its life, but a fish's tail does!


The point I'm making is that the docking of either tale is purely aesthetic, it doesn't enhance the life of either.


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## cray (Feb 4, 2010)

guess yall answered my question. If it cause a 2 page discussion over dogs and cats, I guess they are taboo.


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## josmoloco (Aug 23, 2008)

I have one, Here he is a year ago, after jumping out of the tank on to my pants. Since then his head and belly have turned light orange.


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## PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn (Dec 26, 2005)

lloyd said:


> Cento said:
> 
> 
> > ...Its just when it comes to "tattooed" and mutilated fish, that my blood begins to boil... :?
> ...


it definitely not comparable, there are 2 methods of docking on the tail with dogs, the first is through the use of anaesthetic and surgical means. the second utilises rubber bands and restricts blood flow to the tail.

the latter method will have some pain associated to it, what literature I could access for it indicated that there was no more increase in stress than compared to standard blood drawing (the papers were in reference to dairy cows link) though some discomfort will occur.

the first method doesn't cause any pain (no more than the jab for anaesthetic (though they may give it in gas form)) the second may cause pain (I would imagine its similar to a dead arm, just more severe, so pins-&-needles then nothing)

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=933 this had images that showed the method it was done, however since the updated site they've lost them. they showed the fish losing their tails through the use of scissors, this was done without anaesthesia and some antibiotic substances were smeared on the stump.

its not a fair comparison. the latter is very cruel, especially when you consider mortality rates for injected fish, a similar proportion will be effected by such a traumatic event.

as for parrot cichlids in general, not a fan, not being able to close their mouths is not a good look, and add to that things like swimbladder, spine and eye deformities its not a good result for the animal overall. I'm also anti-fancy goldfish, for the same reasons. they dont even look attractive (goldfish and BP)


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## shef (Oct 3, 2004)

I work in a vet hospital and while I've never seen the rubber band method used for docking tails I can assure you when puppies tails are docked by surgical procedure no anesthetic/analgesics are used. It is done on 2 to 3 day old puppies and they are just too young to give drugs too. If you think there is no pain associated with this then I invite you to hold onto a screaming puppy while it is done. It is an amputation and is painful.

I'm personally not a big fan of this procedure but would rather see it done by a vet then by someone with an elastic band.

As for the fish, I guess to each his own, but if they can't function normally I don't think it is right. I personally think parrots are ugly as well and don't understand the appeal of them.


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## shaguars7 (Apr 12, 2009)

I think this idea of tattooing fish and mutalating fish for aesthetics is terrible, but on the same note I own a dog. My dog is a purebred australian shepherd and has no tail. It was not docked but bred to not have one...Some are still born with them and they dont dock them but leave them. Although he does have a tattoo that he got to proove he is purebred i would of prefered he did not, but he was a week old when it happened and i am sure he felt no ill affects from it. It is on his underside and not seen. All dogs as we know them are man made creatons of crossing things and all sorts of unnatural combonations. so i do think it is a bit far fetched to compare these fish with dogs!(no pun intended) if people hate hybrids or man made things then dogs all of them should be hated and disgusting. 
I do not keep hybrids and never will i do not like them myself, but do not care if people do for reasons related to above. I hope that people do understand that certain things are wrong and dont support fish stores or breeds that are just creating fish for fads or for other none health related reasons.
I do not like the fact people still do things like cropping dobies ears or docking dog tails, but all i can do is just not support them.


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## PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn (Dec 26, 2005)

shef said:


> I work in a vet hospital and while I've never seen the rubber band method used for docking tails I can assure you when puppies tails are docked by surgical procedure no anesthetic/analgesics are used. It is done on 2 to 3 day old puppies and they are just too young to give drugs too. If you think there is no pain associated with this then I invite you to hold onto a screaming puppy while it is done. It is an amputation and is painful.
> 
> I'm personally not a big fan of this procedure but would rather see it done by a vet then by someone with an elastic band.
> 
> As for the fish, I guess to each his own, but if they can't function normally I don't think it is right. I personally think parrots are ugly as well and don't understand the appeal of them.


double checking the articles I'd previously read, it definitely said that adult dogs were docked using anaesthesia, from what I'm reading "some" vets think it acceptable to do at 4-5 days old with no anaesthesia, whats even more disturbing than this practise is the excuses some people make for it.

and by rubber bands I meant elastration, which essentially is the same thing, just utilising a specific "rubber ring".

I strongly disapprove of docking, however comparing the methods of a scissors to a proper anaesthetized operation its far easier to see which is the cruellest. and there are more than a few papers out there stating that there is noticeable difference in working dogs suffering more damaged tails whether they've been docked or not.

and this might sound like I'm getting on a moral high-horse(what with me being a vegetarian), but how many of you eat meat, because docking goes on in most meat productions (and castration) (not to mention infanticide of unwanted male offspring (calves are what I'm thinking of here))


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## bulldogg7 (Mar 3, 2003)

mmm, veal :drooling: 
If after many generations of inbreeding heart shaped parrots, would they just eventually start having fry with no tails?


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## jfly (Feb 17, 2009)

just my opinion but hybrid or not they are God's creatures and gorgeous for the most part. The truth be known (although most won't admit it here) a good percentage of the owners in here have hybrids knowingly or unknowingly. I'm sure almost everyone has bought a yellow lab at some point or other and it developed vertical barring . ie.. hybrid. the best advice is get what YOU like and will keep your interest in the hobby. I dont advise breeding and distributing hybrids but it happens. I have a parrot and it is difficult to have it in a tank other than solo so I frequently play musical tanks with mine, and it's kinda a pain in the butt, BUT i love my parrot, kinda like a ginger step child... yea he's not that cute, but he grows on ya!!


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## shef (Oct 3, 2004)

The majority of dogs tails are not docked as adults and yes if they were you would have to use anesthetic as it is a much larger process on an adult dog than a puppy. Standard practice is to have it done at 2 to 3 days (as well as dewclaw which at least have a better reason for being done).

It is very rare to dock an adult dog's tail and most places will not do it unless there is a medical reason (like it's broken). Amputation is extremely painful even with proper anesthetics and analgesics


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

jfly said:


> yellow lab at some point or other and it developed vertical barring . ie.. hybrid.


I applaud your viewpoint without sharing it, LOL. But had to point out that barring on a lab is not a sign of a hybrid. Poor breeding perhaps. It's the missing stripe on the dorsal that is the most common hybrid trait in labs.


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