# Labidochromis Caeruleus barrel rolling/spinning



## littleolme (Nov 1, 2011)

We bought 5 young Labidochromis Caeruleus at an aquarium club auction this weekend and all seemed well until this guy started barrel rolling uncontrollably all of a sudden. All other fish appear fine. He's trying to eat but obviously having difficulty. No obvious external injuries, colouration is good.






Temp 78
Ammonia .25 ppm
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0ish

The tank was already cycled but we added 9 new fish this weekend so we've got a small ammonia spike that we're watching closely. 20% water change yesterday and added conditioner at the time.

From what I've been able to research, possible swim bladder issue or neurological problem developed? I don't have a quarantine tank, just the isolation container that he currently occupies. Any help would be appreciated.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Man, thats bad.

I would try to restrain him with air stone near him to give him plenty of water flow.

By restrain him in some sort of stripping device like the below. May or may not work, he might just wanna keep barreling out of it .. but I think you would do best to stop him spinning so he can recover.


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## littleolme (Nov 1, 2011)

I added the stripping shelf to give him something to rest on but he won't settle and he's pretty small (a bit < 2").

I forgot to mention hardness parameters ...

GH 215
KH 161

They're being fed a spirulina flake and NLS 1mm sink pellets.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

If you hold him gently will he stop spinning or try to escape?

Trying to detirmine if putting some sort of stops beside and above him will stop the spinning or will he just swim forward to escape. Normally fish like this will just be happy to be still.

I would try to use maybe putting either side filter media (sponge), should be gentle enough on him and that might stop him from rolling. Making sure his gills are still getting plenty of water passing over them.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Also I would guess he has been bashed in the side by an agressive male quite hard to cause this. I would just have a bit of a look in the tank for the culprit, thou he might not been attacking any other fish if the others are female and if this one is a male.

Its a bit out there... but have a look at this someone posted earlier.






If nothing else works, this fish doesn't have whirling desease if you are worried about that .. its def a swim bladder problem.

I would feed him peas in between feeding him flakes as it has been rumoured to help. put some in a syringe and inject it near his mouth slowly once you have found a way of stopping him spinning. Add a little salt in his float and garlic in his diet to incrtease his immune system may help also.


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## littleolme (Nov 1, 2011)

When held, he seems to relax and be thankful that he's not spiraling out of control.

As for aggressive tankmates, he's the largest of 5 small yellow labs (all < 2") along with 4 acei, the largest male sitting at about 3.5". Nothing in this tank is overly aggressive.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

littleolme said:


> When held, he seems to relax and be thankful that he's not spiraling out of control.


Well just work on a way to keep him from spinning so you can feed him and fix that bladder.



littleolme said:


> As for aggressive tankmates, he's the largest of 5 small yellow labs (all < 2") along with 4 acei, the largest male sitting at about 3.5". Nothing in this tank is overly aggressive.


Largest doesn't nessarily mean hes not going to get attacked, it might have been just an unlucky shot in the side from another male lab or acei, meant to scare more then damage.[/quote]


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You should have some nitrate if your tank is properly cycled. The beneficial bacteria produce nitrate.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

DJRansome said:


> You should have some nitrate if your tank is properly cycled. The beneficial bacteria produce nitrate.


And prudent to note high nitrate can cause this same swim bladder thing.

Make sure you shake that second bottle for 30 seconds before using it when doing the nitrate test. And if you haven;t been shaking that bottle each time chances are its now stuffed due to the chemicals seperating and you'll need a new one.


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## littleolme (Nov 1, 2011)

Ya, I thought I was good before adding the cichlids but the nitrate level is very low. There were 9 fish in the tank trying to keep it cycled until I added the 7 new cichlids but 6 of them are 1.5" or less so I'm not sure how good of a job they did. I'm watching the levels daily and if the ammonia/nitrites climb I'll do daily water changes to help keep the levels down.

Is there anything I can do to minimize the impact if it is going through a cycle? At .25 ppm, is the ammonia serious enough to be concerned about if it doesn't climb any higher?


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## CichMomma (Mar 3, 2010)

This just happened to me and the only thing I could attribute it to was too drastic a change in pH. That can cause the barrel rolling, along with Whirling Disease. sorry this is happening to you and your fish.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Well if it is going to go through a cycle, you should have a bottle of prime on hand, you could use other ammonia savers but prime does the lot, so best to use it.

I would add prime if you haven't already to at least make that ammonia safe and see what happens to the levels now you have changed the water.

although ammonia is not known to cause swim bladder problems it causes a number of internal problems that might cause this problem in a chain reaction. If the ammonia is the cause of this.. then there may be a smaller hope of saving the fish then i first thought, depends on the damage the ammonia caused internally. Keep that ammonia in check for sure.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I do not find pH changes cause barrel rolling. When a group of my new fish had a little pH change in a quarantine tank, they froze on the bottom and lost color like they were sleeping. Within a couple hours they adjusted.

CichMomma bought some fish that had been kept in a dirty tank and put them in clean water...imagine that! My theory on CichMomma's event was the fish had acclimated to the toxins over time (also known as old tank syndrome, high nitrates, etc.) and their bodies were not able to adjust quickly enough to the clean water.

Ammonia and nitrate IME cause gasping at the surface.

Barrel rolling is an immediate and extreme reaction to something, but not sure what. Can't hurt to keep the water clean. Don't let ammonia or nitrite get higher than 0.5 and less is better.


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## littleolme (Nov 1, 2011)

Thanks for all the replies, I appreciate everyone's help.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

DJRansome said:


> Ammonia and nitrate IME cause gasping at the surface.


Nitrate will definetely cause swim bladder problems like this.


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## littleolme (Nov 1, 2011)

Nodalizer said:


> Make sure you shake that second bottle for 30 seconds before using it when doing the nitrate test. And if you haven;t been shaking that bottle each time chances are its now stuffed due to the chemicals seperating and you'll need a new one.


Well, as it turns out, I wasn't shaking the bottle for 30 seconds nor was I shaking the tube for 1 minute afterwards. I picked up a new nitrate test kit on the way home and did it properly. Nitrates were between 20-30 ppm. I still read ammonia between 0 and 0.25 ppm but I think it just might be the way I read the colour. Nitrites 0. All other fish are doing fine.

Just completed a 50% water change, added prime and will retest the water after it's settled for a bit. Thanks for the nitrate testing tip Nodalizer, I'm usually pretty careful to read instructions but I failed here.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Oh, thats good news that it was just the test kit, hate for a new cycle to beginning.

How is the spinning fish? Have you got him secured and not spinning yet ?


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## littleolme (Nov 1, 2011)

Testing one hour after 50% water change.

ammonia 0 ppm
nitrites 0 ppm
nitrates still around 30 ppm

I'm going to continue with daily water changes until the nitrates drop. We've also been feeding twice a day, I think it might be time to cut back to ensure there isn't an excess for food sitting in the tank. Any other suggestions?


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## CichMomma (Mar 3, 2010)

The only other thing I could think of is make sure you vacuum out any excess food and detritus sitting on the bottom of the tank. Also, it is a good idea to fast your fish 1 day a week. I can't remember if you said you did this or not. My apologies if it's been mentioned already.


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## littleolme (Nov 1, 2011)

The spinning fish is dead. We couldn't find a way to secure him where he wouldn't find a way out other than holding him with our fingers. After about 3 hours of almost non-stop spinning, we put him to rest. His eyes were bulging out and he was visibly exhausted.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Awesome, now it is looking better.

I will just tell you something I posted in someone elses thread, just incase. Ignore it if you knew it already.



> I know its confusing, but a weekly change will result in high nitrates, even though you have been recommended to do it, I will explain.
> 
> Each time you change the water (any amount) you are left with some nitrates in the water, this then added to the new nitrate from the next week means next time you test the tank the nitrates will be higher again.
> 
> ...


EDIT: sorry about your fish, it can be hit and miss with a fish that out of control


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## littleolme (Nov 1, 2011)

CichMomma said:


> The only other thing I could think of is make sure you vacuum out any excess food and detritus sitting on the bottom of the tank. Also, it is a good idea to fast your fish 1 day a week. I can't remember if you said you did this or not. My apologies if it's been mentioned already.


We fast them on Sundays. Whenever we do a water change, we suction as much as the substrate as we can reach to pick up whatever food/feces is in it. There are enough areas we can't reach well though due to the rocks.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

I think everything is looking fine and you have a plan in place to lower that nitrate, feeding twice a day is fine, just make sure you only feed what they'll eat in 2 minutes, if they are not actively looking for food when you feed them then it may be a sign you need to cut back.

Cichlids should always be looking hungry. When there not its a good sign something is going wrong.


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## littleolme (Nov 1, 2011)

Oh, they always look hungry, they'd have you convinced they don't get fed! :wink:

Just out of curiousity, is there any harm in doing more than one water change in a day? I'm wondering if there would be much benefit of me doing another water change this evening to get the nitrate down quicker. I really wish I hadn't screwed up the previous tests or I would have never let the levels get above 10 ppm in the first place.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

I can't see any harm in that no.

The only possible way a water change could harm anything is the mixing of chemicals (ph,buffer,clorine,temp) when you do it. The fish are not going to mind specially if your lowering Nitrate.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

30ppm nitrate is not terrible...the kits say 40ppm is safe.

Personally I like to keep mine between 10ppm after a water change and 20ppm before.


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