# Breeding Frontosa's



## brad35309 (Nov 13, 2017)

History:
So I got my tank about 2 years ago. the first 2 years it housed an Aarowana. I sold him, and bought about 15 assorted cichlids. 5 of them where f2 Brundi Fronts. Two years Later, I haven't replaced any that have died. Im down to 3 fronts, and about 4 other misc(a venestus, Lemon drop, peacock(whos still tiny) and a krebensis) Theres also 3-4 pleco's in there. The Largest Front appears to have paired with a smaller one. I bought these in hopes a pair would form, so now im ready to see if i can take the next step.

About my tank:
125g oceanic. 2 - 150w heaters. Temp roughly 78 Degrees consistent. 1 55g rated hang over filter, one eheim pro 2 canister filter. 1 55g rated power head hooked up to under gravel plate. about 200lbs of gravel, 50+ lbs of flat slate rock, driftwood and a few fake plants. Tons of places for hiding/establishing a territory.

Diet: 99% of the time its Hikari gold floating pellets(3-4 times weekly,not daily), 1% as a treat, small guppies.

Upkeep: I top it off as it gets low. Water changed every 3-4 months, usually 15-20 gallons. Filters changed every 3-4 months. Canister cleaned every 6 months.

-I've never ever bred fish before so i wanted to ask some questions before i invest time/money into this potential project.

-Do i need to remove the other cichlids?(to encourage breeding? to prevent them from attacking/being attacked by parents? Can i keep the 3rd front, not in the pair?)

- Can the pleco's stay?

- i don't have any interest in pulling the eggs from mom, can i leave them with her?

- is the tank too big for them?(fries, once hatched and swimming)

-How long can the little ones stay in the tank with mom and dad(possibly, the 3rd front)

-Do i need to increase the feeding intervals?

-They all came from the same batch, will inbreeding be a major issue?

Thanks for reading, and any/all input you may have for my situation.

Brad


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

I'm not sure how to answer this question without possibly offending so I'm hoping you have a thick skin. 
Before getting into a discussion about what to keep and breed you have to drastically improve you husbandry practices. Cichlids need water changes in the 50% weekly realm. And filters, depending on stock should be cleaned bi monthly. I do them more or less depending on which of my tanks I'm cleaning. You asked a lot of great questions but Imo it needs to start with the husbandry.
BTW fronts are a great fish to breed and if to can be successful with them, pretty much any fish will be a breeze.


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## plug (Nov 10, 2013)

Fronts are really easy to breed, especially Burundi
the biggest thing is keeping the water clean, by doing weekly or even bi weekly water changes
i also avoid any floating foods as they dont usually like coming to the surface to eat, and when they do, they seem uncomfortable (at least mine do)

you really need to do frequent water changes as the nitrates will rise, and eventually if the water is not changed regularly it could cause a\the ph to crash


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## brad35309 (Nov 13, 2017)

Im pretty thick skinned and I'm not offended. because I'm looking for accurate feedback I was honest and accurate in my description. 50% weekly seems really really extreme. I've kept fish for years now, saltwater and fresh. I know my husbandry is pretty poor, but 50% weekly sounds like it would strip all the good baterica within a year. I'd be willing to go to weekly maybe 10-20%. As far as filters go, store bought cartridge filters are pricey. I mainly use my top filter for catching particles. All I have in it is a course sponge that traps most small-large particles. When you say change filters, would this include the canister. That is a real pain in the butt. That being said, thanks for the feedback. What kind of food would you recommend if not floating? My fronts don't seem to hesitate to come up to feed, but floating has been their staple most of their life.


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

Okay then. I know very little about salt. Only what local fellow hobbyists tell me when our 2 disciplines cross. Bacteria are never stripped from a tank. For the most part they live in your filter, on your rock, your substrate basically everything in your tank. It is common practice to do 50% water changes in cichlid tanks with no effect on bb. They remove nitrates and replace lost trace elements amoughst many other things. Even the biggest aquariums are microscopic drops of water compared to what nature offers so we have to compensate. My filters never have media changed but rather just cleaned in aquarium water and replaced. I have cannisters that have been running for well over 15 years with the same media. 
I cannot stress enough the importance of water changes. Been breeding and keeping cichlids for 34 plus years. Long before internet. Lost lots of fish early on too. But I can tell you without reservation that fish grow faster, bigger, healthier and more colourful when water is changed regularly. On top of that breeding fish usually produce bigger and healthier fry including batch size.

Will fish live in **** water and breed. Yup they will to an extent. However that's because nature evolves to survive no matter what. However that doesn't mean they are the best, biggest, or the healthiest. What I can say is my fish look incredible after a water change. It often triggers breeding in most species.
There are many many experienced hobbyist/breeders on this forum who will reinforce this advice and some that will say I'm full of **** but I encourage you to try what I suggest. You will be stunned at what your fish look like in a month.
If you do decide to try more regular changes the change will have to graduate to the 50% mark or the shock of improved water will likely kill. Another hard lesson I learned many years ago.


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## punman (Oct 24, 2003)

I have been keeping African cichlids for 14 years and have had frontosas for probably 7 of those years. I agree with the comments so far. I change one-third of the water on all tanks on about the 10th, 20th, 30th of each month. I use sinking pellets - NLSpectrum or NorthFin. I use hang-on-back filters - two on each tank. One gets rinsed on the 15th, the other on the 30th. I have bred tropheus, featherfins, cyprochromis, frontosas under these conditions and seldom lose fish although cyps are a bit of a challenge for me - not to breed but to keep healthy.

If you want to breed frontosas, don't put a bunch of other fish in there. I have a bristlenose pleco in there with mine and that is it. Frontosas do not pair off. You should have a couple of males and three to five females.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Everyone has given you good advice, just make sure you gradually work up to 50% water changes because doing it all at once would kill the fish.


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## brad35309 (Nov 13, 2017)

IN regards to caldwelldaniel26: I assume you mean dont change it all(as in 80% or greater) for a water change to prevent killing the fish. I know if i did a 50% water change right now, that as long as i refilled it with Close to or at the same temperature water, they would be just fine. Than start from say 20% and move my way up 5% or so bi weekly until i hit the half way mark. My concern was doing 50% water changes regularly would be pulling too much of the positive bacteria out and put it back into a state of virginity(by that i mean, a fresh tank with no bacterica, a fresh start)
The problem im having with doing regular 50% water changes now, is that thats 75gallons of water. i could buy a python system for siphoning it out, but i use tap water + auqa safe to replenish it. I generally do this with a 5g bucket at a time. thats moving alot of 5g buckets from my bathroom to my living room once a week.
I guess i dont know how the mechanics of adding water via a python system from a tap source works. I know my tap has chlorine in it, and that kills fish. thats why i add the aquasafe before i put it in the tank. But if i ran the python directly from my tap to the tank, do i need to sit there and slowly/constantly poor in the aqua safe?

TankMates: So i should get rid of all the fish aside from the Fronts? I'd really like to keep my plecos, one of them (IMO,King tiger pleco, who is actually the oldest fish in the tank) is pretty rare and unique. the other 2-3 are commons.

So i have the 3 Fronts: they are ranging from 4-6 inches i'd guess. I need to get more? As far as i can tell, i have 2 females and 1 male(i think. the "females" have no humps, and the big one"male" has a large hump developing) Its really hard to find other fronts that are close to their size, and i'd like to stick with the brundi line. I live in Wisconsin, and there isn't a huge huge market here, especially as we draw closer to winter. Im really hesitant about buying fish online, especially seeing how Front's are not cheap by any means. i recall paying something like 15$ each for the Fronts. And they've been there for 2 years now, So i can only imagine getting some more close to size will be in the 25-35$ range or more. Can i get juveniles or small fronts and throw them in their with the bigger ones?

Im not looking to breed for profit, more/less to see them breed, raise the babies and potentially see a colony grow. Can the babies stay in the tank with the parents post Fry stage?(juvenile, adolescence)


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

I think you are on the right track with the water change idea. Start with say 20%and clean your cannister, rinsing your media in tank water drawn into your bucket. In my city the water has clorimine in it. My routine is, draw water into 2 buckets. Clean media in one then the second. Replace media in cannister. This is being done while my Python is draining into a toilet or floor drain using gravity syphon. This saves on water on the drain cycle keeping costs down. I fill my buckets with water, buffers, and prime, dosed for the amount I'm replacing. I pour this into the tank while the water is going back in via the Python attached to the faucet. The temp can be off a few degrees either way. I used to use a thermometer to get it accurate eons ago. Now I just dunk my hand into the tank and compare that to the running tap water. Its to the point i know how far to turn on the hot and cold taps as well

One thing I would get before doing anything is a master test kit. Liquid kit not strip. Do the tests as instructed and post your finding here. It will be a great help for you and for us so we can give more accurate advice.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I meant that if you're changing water every few months, then a large water change (50% or greater) all at once can be very harmful to the fish. It would be better to start out doing smaller weekly water changes and gradually work up to 50% weekly. But, you have nothing to worry about as far as losing any bacteria, only a negligible amount is actually free floating, with the majority living on surfaces throughout the tank and filter. I change out more than 50% a week and have no issues.


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## punman (Oct 24, 2003)

Let's say I have just drained 30 gallons from my tank. I hook a garden hose up to the bathroom shower and start refilling the tank. Just before turning on the tap I add enough chemicals to the tank to treat 30 gallons. It works just fine that way for me.

You could probably put some juvenile frontosas in with the adults but it might be two or three years until they are breeding size. If you keep baby frontosa fry in the adult tank they will disappear unless you have lots of hiding places and even then, you will lose many. If you want to raise fry you need a second tank.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Chiming in on the side of weekly water changes of 50% or more. I often do 75%.


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## brad35309 (Nov 13, 2017)

When I do water changes with a syphon i generally am digging through the gravel and sucking out all the poop particles and wasted matter outm. I'd assume that if I'm doing 50% weekly at some point, I'm not sucking all this through the gravel right?


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## thornsja19 (Feb 4, 2017)

What I do is use the siphon to vacuum the gravel. When I'm done with the vacuuming the water level is usually down 10-20%. After that, I just leave the hose loose in the corner above the gravel to siphon out water down to 50%. I usually just turn the sink off and let it slowly free-flow out. This saves on water and doesn't create enough suction so that you need to worry about harming the fish


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## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

i have read and is my guess that if in your next water change you change 20% and the next week 25% and the next 30% and so til you hit the 50% mark on your fishes will be fine...

regarding the water treatment i have read many times that if you are treating the water directly already in the tank you need to treat the whole tank (add enough aquasafe to treat 125 gals) instead of just equal to only the amount of water changed...

i had the same problem with my old set up regarding the buckets, what i came up with was to buy a pump put it inside the bucket and connect it to a hose with a piece of pvc pipe long enough to reach inside the tank from the bucket on the floor, fill the bucket up to the 5 gal mark with a garden hose connected to the bathtub faucet and to a ball valve on the other end (so you can shut off the hose right there at the bucket and not be running back and forth to the bathroom every time the bucket gets to the mark) treat and repeat, yes you will spend $50 or $60 in all (pump, hose, converter / connector for the bathtub faucet, the ball valve, pvc pipe) but it will make water changes a lot a lot easier, faster and with a lot a lot less work and effort... imo...

 8) :wink: :thumb: :dancing: =D> ...


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

joselepiu said:


> i have read and is my guess that if in your next water change you change 20% and the next week 25% and the next 30% and so til you hit the 50% mark on your fishes will be fine...
> 
> *regarding the water treatment i have read many times that if you are treating the water directly already in the tank you need to treat the whole tank (add enough aquasafe to treat 125 gals) instead of just equal to only the amount of water changed...*
> 
> ...


re: bolded - read the directions on the product you are using. Prime has you dose based on tank volume, while others (NovAqua) have you dose based on actual water changed, which to me makes more sense.

I have used pythons/hoses for ~20 years, and over that time have added the conditioner before, during, and after adding new water. All approaches worked for me, that said my current approach is to turn the hose on, walk to the tank, add the conditioner. Fill tank, shut off water.

Even if you change the majority of the water via a hose/python, there is nothing to stop you from using a siphon and a bucket for gravel cleaning. You might also considering moving away from gravel and to a sand substrate, which reduces the need to vacuum the substrate, as most detritus will sit on top of the sand and not fall between it, making it easier for the filters to get it.

To the OP, I might suggest doing some searches here about your care regimen, it sounds like you have been working with some old advice. Suggested Topics: Water change frequency, Pythons for water changes, Beneficial Bacteria, Frontosa care and breeding.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

brad35309 said:


> When I do water changes with a syphon i generally am digging through the gravel and sucking out all the poop particles and wasted matter outm. I'd assume that if I'm doing 50% weekly at some point, I'm not sucking all this through the gravel right?


You won't have near as much waste build-up if you go to weekly water changes so vacuuming the gravel is going to be much easier.


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

It is true that in the case of prime they suggest dosing whole tank volume however I've only ever done for water replaced and never had an issue either.

To the op. As mentioned. A number of your practices are dated. The use of sand as a substrate would be preferable over gravel for sure. Getting rid of the undergravel plate is a must as well
I got rid of my undergravel plates about 10 years ago and switched to fine Aragonite or sand. Smartest single upgrade I've done. They just caused too many water issues for me. I was daunted by the process of changing but it proved to be far easier then feared.

My original though so as not to overwhelm you was to get your water and practices in order before suggesting the changes. My thinking is that doing all the required improvements all at once could be fatal to the fish. Still feel that way. Get your water perameters in order then attempt the other suggested improvements over time.


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## plug (Nov 10, 2013)

For my 2 cents on the water changes, here is what I do
I suck out the water into 5 gallon buckets with a siphon and also hovering just above the sand to get rid of all the ****. Once most of that is gone,I just continue to remove the water and just fill the buckets and dump them in the sink. I used to use the python to suck the water out but I found that it was slower, and I was wasting too much water as the water had to be on for it to work. I have a large siphon so it takes me maybe 10 minute or so to empty about 50% of the water. Yes I admit its some heavy lifting, but I consider it a benefit as I see it as getting some exercise in. When I am done I then hook up my python, get the temp of the incoming water as close to the temp in the tank, add my prime (to treat the whole tank) and then fill the tank up. If I do not do any filter cleaning, the whole process may take me 30 to 45 mins or so.

I will also tell you that my Fronts are breeding like crazy. I have 3 tanks of babies at different stages of growth.

Also, my neighbour has a tank of mixed Africans and he was wondering why all my fish (fronts and Malawi Haps and Peacocks in another tank) are also always breeding. When I asked him how often he does water changes, he said maybe once or twice a year. Well, he started doing weekly water changes, and some of his fish started spawning, after he started a regular water changing plan. It may be coincidence, but I tested his water, and his nitrates were so high, he started a water change that day.

So in my humble opinion, I would say water changes are probably the most important thing we can do to keep our fish healthy


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

So hopefully we have not scared the op. I always wonder if the passion to help just scares some posters away. 
To summerize.

We all agree with recommending water change frequency to roughly 50%.
We all agree to at some point switch to sand. This nessecitates ug filter removal as well. 
Regardless of what fish are kept these are the first steps. 
Now how to accomplish this safely to avoid harming fish.

At this point the op Brad 35309 needs to chime in. The tank you have is a great size tank. Ideal for most cichlid choices including the frontosa breeding plan. Let us know.


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## brad35309 (Nov 13, 2017)

First off thanks for the overwhelming amount of responses and feed back. Getting various opinions and practices that all sum to the same end means that I've been going about it wrong. I really do appreciate the amount of detail you have provided, all of you. I generally don't post on forums too often and when I do I've never gotten this level of involvement and feedback.

Thank you.

I won't be changing substrates any time soon, because that is a daunting task. 200lbs of gravel is going to be a nightmare remove. However, if it's a better option I will persuit it. I have a few more questions now. I won't be making any brash changes just yet, I want to come up with a plan and know how it's going to be executed.

To be purchased:
50ft python drain system
Master fresh water test kit(liquid variation)

What to keep:
Drift wood, rocks decorations.

Remove gravel and replace with stand based substrate.

On this topic, how much? Is it still true that you want 1lb per gallon of water in substrate, and that adding more Tha.the total volume is beneficial for baterica growth and retention? The fronts pull up the gravel and made psuedo caves underneath my rock stacked formations. Will they attempt this with sand? And precautions need to be adhered to as to stacking rocks? Some of my rocks are big and heavy. And as far as siphoning goes, I don't want to run the drain down my sink, I know I will catch a small amount of sand unintentionally and I dont want inlt in my system, I'd have to drain it outside. How much sand can be expected to loose, and how often would I have to "top it off"?

Next questions about my filtration. Do I keep the power head for water flow after removing the plate? 
My top filter has seen much better days and I'll be replacing it soon, any recommendations? I was condsidering getting rid of it and adding a second canister. As far as canisters go I really really. Dont want to spend more than. $100 on one. Any recommendations for a brand or type around that price. And how would I set that up? Currently my ehiem has 4 levels. If I'm remembering correctly, bottom are those rings or small circle things, look like small hollowed rock straw portions. The next two levels are a medium coarse rock. Top level contains carbon in reusable bags topped with floss. If I go the two canister route, do I keep one the ehiem like it is, and just add multiple levels of pads or filtration to the new one, or what's recommended? Or is it better to get a new top filter for the variety.

Sorry if my thoughts are jumping, I'm typing on a cell phone and it's hard to proof this post.


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## brad35309 (Nov 13, 2017)

The next question would be, what's the best way to go about the substrate change, when that time arrives. Pull out all the decos. Id imagine I'd need to remove the fish and put them in a temporary tank until done. If so for how long until they can go back in.


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

Brad,

That was one of the best posts I've ever seen done on a phone. Bravo! Also, thanks for coming back and making the effort to absorb all of our information - we all want you and your fish to be successful.

re: rocks and digging. Always, always, always put the rocks on the bottom of the tank, and not on the gravel or sand. This way, there is no way the fish can undermine them. Some folks will advocate eggcrate under them as insurance, I've never seen the need to do that, but bottom line is not to have substrate under the rocks.

I've changed over to sand a couple of times, as well as moved tanks within the house for various reasons. It is not that difficult if you plan ahead, and even go as far as doing a dry run. Most important thing is to have your sand well rinsed before beginning process. Most of us will recommend pool filter sand, as it requires the least amount of rinsing - none to just a little. Playsand by way of contrast, takes 40 days and 40 nights to rinse all the muck out of it - though it does look great. The lb per gallon is an approximation, going by eye, you'll want about an inch of sand on average. As noted, it comes in a 50lb bag, and $10-12 gets you more than enough for your 125.

Before stirring up any water, siphon tank water into several buckets, and put the fish in them. Now drain the tank, removing rocks and decor. Using something like a clean dustpan or plastic kids sand shovel, scoop old substrate out of tank and into bucket or other vessel. Replace rocks. Add sand. Fill tank, add water conditioner, then add the fish. Start filters and enjoy the new substrate.

Also, Pythons do not have to be used with water running during the drain process, they can be used as any other siphon hose. I have never needed to use the running water to drain tanks. Even my basement tanks are drained through the walkout door using gravity.


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## james1983 (Dec 23, 2007)

The sunsun canister filters should be in your price range and have good reviews. You can find them on eBay. I've changed substrates before and pretty much followed the same steps above, I had fish in buckets and Rubbermaid totes all over the living room.


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## punman (Oct 24, 2003)

I have done a switch from gravel to sand without removing the fish. I did it over a period of a few days.
Step 1 - Turn off filters. Drain a little water so you do not spill water over the top when servicing tank.
Step 2 - Remove rocks and other ornaments
Step 3 - Using a small container or spade or whatever, remove as much gravel as you can in say, 15 min. The water will become very murky.
Step 4 - Top up water and turn on filters. It might take a couple of days until the tank becomes clear.
Step 5 - Repeat Steps 3 and 4 in a couple of days.
Step 6 - When you have removed all gravel, turn off filters and add sand which you have rinsed in a bucket in the bathtub, sink, outdoors, whatever. Turn filters back on.

The key is to not have the filters turned off for too long. You do not want to destroy the good bacteria. The fish won't care about murky water or no substrate or lack of rocks and ornaments for a few days.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I've don't it both ways, and I prefer removing the fish. Plan on two hours. Might take a little more, but not more than 4 hours.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

Just out of curiosity, Could you not just dump the sand in and then scoop out the gravel with a cat litter scooper in about a month from now?


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## brad35309 (Nov 13, 2017)

About the sunsun filter. That looks really nice. But is uv light good for freshwater??


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Don't worry about the uv light, it's okay in freshwater but there's really not a lot of benefit to be gained from it. When I had a sunsun, I left the switch for the uv bulb off all the time. Those fluorescent uv bulbs are only good for about 6 months tops before they're no longer effective also.


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

noddy said:


> Just out of curiosity, Could you not just dump the sand in and then scoop out the gravel with a cat litter scooper in about a month from now?


No, it will all mix together. Unless you have really large gravel, the cat litter scooper is not as effective as you'd hope.

Re: filters and budget, keep your eyes out for a used Eheim, they are out there and provide a great value. My preference is to stay far away from the cheap "clone" filters like those mentioned in this thread.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

nodima said:


> noddy said:
> 
> 
> > Just out of curiosity, Could you not just dump the sand in and then scoop out the gravel with a cat litter scooper in about a month from now?
> ...


How big is his gravel?

It's how I switched over to play sand from crushed coral in my 210g (150lbs of sand).

Edit. I just realized that he is also using an under gravel filter that needs to go.


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

Just wondering how the changes are going. Have you tested your water?


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## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

Cyphound said:


> Just wondering how the changes are going. Have you tested your water?


+1...


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## Jonesab7 (Feb 7, 2013)

punman said:


> I use hang-on-back filters - two on each tank. One gets rinsed on the 15th, the other on the 30th.


I use two hang-on-back filters as well, and change rotate changing the cartridges. I do not clean them often at all however, as I am worried about losing bacteria. Do you every do anything with your BIO media, or just take that out and clean the rest?


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## perryclark (Dec 5, 2016)

I found water changes a core also, so I set about changing that. I hooked up a spare powerhead pump to a hose that reached outside. I also set up a gravel vacuum that had a hose fitted to go out to the garden. Using both together I drain the tank into a tank. I vacuum the gravel until I've taken a combined 50%. Then I move both to a 2nd tank. I often cant do the whole tank but by getting most done, then recording what is not done and starting there next week, I can clean my tanks readily.
I use the waste water on my tropical garden. No need to buy any other fertilizer!


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## FarmerDan (Aug 7, 2016)

The talk about gradually moving up the volume of water change to 50% because of concern about killing fish stands out to me. I'm curious what scientific basis does anyone claiming this have for the claim? For a large water change to kill fish in a normal aquarium environment things would have to be really far gone so that the water is so acidic it would probably already be killing the fish and even though this situation described seems pretty bad I don't think the aquarium water is dissolving pennies. I'd like to hear some factual basis for the claim that a bunch of clean/dechlorinated/temperature matched water is going to hurt your fish.

From what I read and with my experience I would immediately do a 50% water change followed by a nitrate test and probably another 2 water changes that same week; the nitrates are most likely off the scale and not able to be read by any conventional nitrate test. 10-20% water changes don't do it for heavily stocked cichlid tanks. You can't just follow some set of general/arbitrary rules and get by; each tank is different and you need understand the things going on inside the tank that require maintenance and therefore you need measurement tools so you stop guessing.

Any maintenance schedule that any person here so far has suggested to you is based on the general idea that Cichlids are aggressive fish that eat, fight, and generally create more waste than other common aquarium fish, and therefore need more rigorous maintenance. However, none of them suggested are right for you. They might be close, they might be overkill, but they aren't right on. That's because the "fish load" on any aquarium is a very difficult thing to calculate that includes temperature, size of fish (total pounds in a system vs number of fish) and feeding rates. Nobody here knows what your fish load is because we don't know the weight of your fish or your feeding schedule, let alone the amount you feed at every feeding. You have to go through your water change routine while testing your aquarium for nitrates at different intervals in order to come up with a schedule that keeps your nitrates where you want them to be. It's not more simple and it's not more complicated than that. Buy a test kit and get to work over the next couple months changing water and testing. If you're smart you'll get it figured out quickly. Clean water is worth the effort.

The idea that removing water removes beneficial bacteria is based on pure ignorance of the bacteria in question, and if others haven't criticized it enough here is someone else saying that is pure hooey.

Sand will not need to be "topped off" any time in the foreseeable future as long as you are not carelessly vacuuming it up during water changes. I've got the same sand in tanks for years and even with the accidental slips I haven't sucked up any noticeable amount. And I'm not super careful because I try and get my vacuum very close to the sand and get all that detritus. What I would worry about with sand is preventing it from getting into anything you have in there with an impeller such a powerhead or power filter. It'll chew up equipment fast if you're not watching your flow when you set it all up.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You are right that the water would have to be pretty far gone (dirty and toxic) for a large amount of clean water to kill fish, but if that is the case, it can happen. I've never had it kill a cichlid, but I've lost a bunch of Synodontis polli. It even has a name: old tank syndrome.

From a Practical Fishkeeping article: When carbonates become depleted, two problems follow. Firstly, the osmoregulation of many fish (the way in which they regulate their minerals in the body) is compromised, sometimes to lethal extents. Secondly, without the buffering effect of minerals to keep it in place, pH in the tank can drop or swing wildly, leading to acute acidosis. Either of these can kill a fish outright, and both will cause acute and chronic stress.


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## FarmerDan (Aug 7, 2016)

DJRansome,

Re-reading the original post I suppose I erred when I assumed the OP's water is not killing fish. What I was trying to get across is that I think this is getting overly complicated by extraneous information, and inadvertently I contributed to that extraneous information.

Brad,

You need to buy a test kit and learn how to use it while also learning/googling about the damaging affects of nitrates on fish.

In Frontosa inbreeding is a marketability issue. If you're breeding an F2 Frontosa to it's brother/sister F2 Frontosa then nobody wants your fry except people who don't know anything about rare/expensive cichlids. Breeding Burundi Frontosa is easy, breeding any Zaire variant is not.

My suggestion is for you to back the truck up a bit. You need to learn some fundamentals before you try your hand at breeding. Many cichlid keepers stumble into breeding accidentally because they keep their tanks nice and healthy, provide adequately for their fish, and nature happens. So my advice is to learn how to keep your water clean and learn how to tell if it's clean. Change your method of water changes so it's not a ton of work (USE HOSES). Get a system set up where you can give your fish large amounts of fresh water easily and quickly. Buy large amounts of dechlor online so you get it cheap and changing out 60 gallons is nothing.

Water changes should not be difficult. it's one of the most important things you can do for your fish; as important as feeding them. Get that nitrate test kit and you'll need to test before and after water changes to determine what affect you're having on nitrate levels with your water changes. Try to keep them below 20ppm. Clean your filter more often. It's filled with detritus and continues to degrade water quality.


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