# Kitumbas with 7 bars.



## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

there was an ad on kijiji (canadas craiglist competition)
which advertises a pair of 7 bar kitumbas.
it was very odd but at the same time they look good.

heres some pics.
it says it was the odd ones from a spawn.









what do you fanatics think. im not looking to buy it, i thought i should post it.


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## matthew1884 (Jul 24, 2009)

how much are they running?


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

if the seven bars are linear, and equal on both sides of the fish, then i would love to see more pictures. on the other hand, if the 'seventh bar' is mottled or could be considered a spotty extension of the sixth, then they are not so unique. some would consider them culls, but there are breeders who love to find that 'odd' fish, in hopes it is capable of reproducing it's oddity. IMO.
share the ad's link?


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

heres the link, its actually a male and female.

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-pets-other-k ... Z161123517

it would be cool if these 2 can produce **** with 7 egual bars.
the stripes look fairly even in the pictures.


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## dww-law (Jun 1, 2007)

Those are not pure Kitumbas or any other pure Zaires. They are cross breeds most likely with Kigoma's. Sorry, but I would not buy them. I find his add highly suspect.


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

olny 2 of them are supposedly kitumbas.
the rest are burundi type.
im not buying them, just posted it for the forum to see.


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## tirzo13 (May 26, 2004)

why do they have to be cross bred with Kigoma?

I see no facial features of Kigoma.
No cheek patch, no gold tint on the dorsal, nothing that looks like a cross with a kigoma.

Any pure type can have 7 stripes, 8 stripes, or 5 stripes.
It happens with wild fish in the lake, and it happens in a tank.

Just because a Zaire has a extra stripe, does not mean its not a pure Zaire or crossed with Kigoma blood.

Other then having a 7th stripe, those Zaire have nothing else in common with a Kigoma.

If both have 7 stripes on both sides, then good chance most of the fry would also show the trait.
would be interesting to study the percentages of the fry.

Many purists would hate them, but there would be a little bit of a market for the oddball lovers.


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## dww-law (Jun 1, 2007)

They might not be cross bred with Kigoma. Although that would easily explain the extra bar. Geneticly speaking, they could very well have only one trait (7th bar) of the Kigoma. Or, depending on the dominate genes, they could have 10 traits of the Kigoma. If the Zaires genes are dominant then they would more resemble Zaires (These do). We could discuss genetics but that would be a waste of time. The orginal poster asked what we thought. I gave my opinion. Again, I find the ad suspect and I would not buy them. Given the fact he is housing them with a different variant tells me that cross breeding is likely. Zaires cost a lot of money and you get what you pay for. Just for info I do raise Kitumba's and I have 14 adults in my breeding colony. Their pictures can be seen on cyphos.com.


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## Charles (Feb 25, 2003)

I would not get them... 

But they can easily cross with burundi and wills how 7 bars.

Look at the top kitumba. The last 2 bars looks to be merge together on the top...


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## becadavies (Apr 2, 2007)

I would'nt bother with them either.

The fact they are in a mixed varient colony rings alarm bells. They could be the result of Kigoma x Kitumba many generations down and they 7th stripe is a dominant genetic trait.

I dont class myself as a purest but breeding them wouldnt interest me at all- i would class them as poorly bred fronts.


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## tirzo13 (May 26, 2004)

everyone used to think frontosa in the lake are perfect stripe count wise, though they had no idea.
they used to think only kigoma had 7 stripes (though in the wild they are found with 6 or 8 and mixed).
Everyone used to think all that normally have 6 ONLY have 6 in the wild, when that is not true.

Konings has talked bout this to many frontosa fans, mixed stripes happen in the lake, and its not as rare as many believe.

Any WC Blue Zaire that has extra stripes, is a good couple thousand years from having any kigoma blood in it.
Kitumba have not been imported long enough for there to be many of generations of mixing.
In relative frontosa terms its a new import.
Zaire Blue with a extra or missing stripe does not mean hybrid, it happens in the wild.

I have also seen kigoma crossed with various other types.
Kitumba again, have not been around long enough to come up with a kigoma cross that looked like a kitumba.
All the kigoma crosses i have seen with zaire show the cheek patch, yellow on the dorsal, and a loss of the blue coloration, in addition to extra, missing, and joined stripes in the same batch.

The slow rate to maturation for a gibberosa, and the time period that the second batch and later of kitumba have been here, makes the cross not so likely.

Maybe if someone got to the original 3 boxes that came with the first shipment of kitumba that came to NA and Boester back in the day.
But thats doubtful.


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## shawntraviss (Sep 17, 2004)

Theyre pure alright. He bought those from a friend of mine. My buddy picked those up, plus a bunch of "culls". Basically fry that had alot of crooked bars, extra bars etc. He got them for really cheap since the breeder just wanted to get rid of them since theyd grown to large for him to want to cull. The breeder is one of the biggest and best in Ontario though. I wont name names but trust me theyre pure kits.


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## dww-law (Jun 1, 2007)

Once again, you get what you pay for. Cross bred or culls does not matter. The point is $150 for two culled Zaires is way to much money.


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## tirzo13 (May 26, 2004)

Something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

I know plenty of people willing to pay high dollar for Zaire with a extra stripe.

Many people think the thousands of dollars that people paid for a hybrid Trimac crazy, yet that is what the flowerhorn was.
They looked like 95% Trimac, a cheap fish, yet that flowerhorn was selling for thousands of dollars.
Now flowerhorn have advanced with even more species crossed into the mix.
many people will not pay a cent for a hybrid.
many people will not pay a cent for a albino or other oddball morph.

but plenty of people will.

So the people who spend thousands for a flowerhorn, they think for sure they got what they paid for.
The people who pay for albino fish (which usually sell for at least twice a nonalbino) think for sure they got what they paid for.

Ever see a leucistic managuense?
people are begging for fry from that fish.
that thing will sell for alot of money, while the regular managuense is just a few bucks.

$150 for a 7 stripe PURE Kitumba is a steal to many people.


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## dww-law (Jun 1, 2007)

The original question was "What do you think?" I gave my answer. They are worth what someone will pay. In my case, not much. If someone wants to pay $150 or $1000 have at it. However, mooning, broken bars, split bars, etc. are not a desired trait by the MAJORITY of people who keep or breed Zaires. Hence, Fronts with those traits DO NOT go for top dollar.


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## tirzo13 (May 26, 2004)

I must have missed where he asked about *"mooning, broken bars, split bars, etc".*

I thought he only asked what do you think about *kitumba with 7 stripes.*

*Your original answer to that question was, 
"Those are not pure Kitumbas or any other pure Zaires. They are cross breeds* most likely with Kigoma's."

Which was not true at all, for the reasons i specified, and later was confirmed by someone who knows who the fish came from.

Saying, "*I think* they may be crossed with Kigoma" *is an opinion*.

Saying, "*Those are not pure Kitumbas* or any other pure Zaires. *They are cross breeds* most likely with Kigoma's". *Is not a opinion*, its a matter of fact statement implied to be the truth.
2 very different answers. And being that they don't look anything like kigoma/kitumba crosses, quite a wrong conclusion.

Your final comment was closer to being an opinion, but then it was insulting to anyone who would pay for something you think is worthless.

You may not think anyone will pay top dollar for a 7 stripe frontosa (a misinformed opinion), does not mean there is not plenty who will.
I agree that mooning is less desirable, but that statement has nothing to do with this fish.

You are commenting about mixed breeds and fish with mooning and split stripes, those fish you are talking about have nothing to do with the *pure* fish he posted.

Anybody can make a comment, but its helpful when the comment has backing information and is actually relevant to the question.

Saying a fish is something it clearly is not, is not very helpful.

Its understandable that you would not pay top dollar for that fish, but saying it would not get top dollar is again, an incorrect opionion.
You may not know anyone who would in your circles, but I do.
So saying, "would NOT get top dollar", is again, not quite true, though i'm sure is true amongst the people you know.


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## dww-law (Jun 1, 2007)

No one insulted anyone. He asked what I thought so I told him. BTW it is your OPINION that my conclusion is wrong. Genetics is an interesting field of study and I doubt either of us are experts in the field. However, your below conclusion is genetically faulty:

"Any WC Blue Zaire that has extra stripes, is a good couple thousand years from having any kigoma blood in it. Kitumba have not been imported long enough for there to be many of generations of mixing. In relative frontosa terms its a new import. Zaire Blue with a extra or missing stripe does not mean hybrid, it happens in the wild. I have also seen kigoma crossed with various other types. Kitumba again, have not been around long enough to come up with a kigoma cross that looked like a kitumba. All the kigoma crosses i have seen with zaire show the cheek patch, yellow on the dorsal, and a loss of the blue coloration, in addition to extra, missing, and joined stripes in the same batch."

Dominant and recessive genes can appear in any generation at any time. A cross bred fish can develop traits of both fish or only one fish. This is true with any species of dogs, cats, fish, goats, horses, and even humans. It does not takes thousands of years as you have stated. This is a genetic fact not an opinion. A ZAIRE can cross bred today with any other front and their off spring can look like 100 percent ZAIRE, 100 percent the front it crossed with, or a combination of both. It depends on the dominant gene.

As I stated, I could give a hoot if someone wants to pay any amount of money for something, I just said I would not. The mentioned fronts do not meet the standard of Zaires for most collectors. I never said NO ONE would pay top dollar for them. Would someone pay more for them if they really wanted them? You can always find someone who will, but I would not. That is not insulting to anyone.

Also, there is no such thing as an INCORRECT OPINION, that's what makes it an opinion.


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## wheatbackdigger (May 11, 2008)

shawntraviss said:


> Theyre pure alright. He bought those from a friend of mine. My buddy picked those up, plus a bunch of "culls". Basically fry that had alot of crooked bars, extra bars etc. He got them for really cheap since the breeder just wanted to get rid of them since theyd grown to large for him to want to cull. The breeder is one of the biggest and best in Ontario though. I wont name names but trust me theyre pure kits.


Here is where the problem starts. "One of the biggest and best breeders in Ontario". Now if Shawn is telling the truth, these fish should have not been sold and should have been destroyed. Yes, when it comes to my WC Mobas, I am a purist. I don't want my fish to look good, I want them to look perfect. Now, you have this guy selling misbarred fronts from the "best breeder" of Ontario, before you know it, this is the garbage you find for sale in the all the fish stores. Sorry Shawn, but your Ontario breeder is a menace, irresponsible and a danger to the frontosa world. I would never buy from a breeder who would let these type of fish out of his control.


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## tirzo13 (May 26, 2004)

*"there is no such thing as an INCORRECT OPINION, that's what makes it an opinion."
dww-law*

so someone could say a ford escort is a mercedes?
since that is their opionion?
sure, they can say it all they want, guess what they still look like?

They could say that the ford escort has a "V 4 engine", which again shows what kind of INCORRECT OPINIONS they dish out.

there is such a thing as an opinion that is based on incorrect information.
your opinion, as you call it, was based on your thoughts about wild kitumba in the lake NOT having 7 stripes.

so yes, you gave your opinion.
it was just based on your knowledge about the lake.
one, that was not so correct.

as far as genetics, i'm quite comfortable, my original major was biology, though that was 25 years ago, i'm sure Gregor came back and changed things.

have you ever seen a kigoma/kitumba cross?

we can talk dominance, recessive, allele, locus and Mendel all you like.
nevertheless, you gave a Faulty OPINION that had no backing information about the fish being a cross.


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## tirzo13 (May 26, 2004)

* "BTW it is your OPINION that my conclusion is wrong."
DWW-LAW*

Your conclusion was not wrong?

You said the Kitumba are not pure, they are crossed with kigoma!

How is that a truthful conclusion?

There are 7 stripe Kitumba in the lake.

That fish looks nothing like kitumba Kigoma crosses i have seen.

Again, how is your conclusion not wrong, and where is your truthful backing information?

Other then you have seen kigoma with 7 stripes, and you have seen kitumba with 6 stripes.
your opinion is based on the fact that you have not seen anything else.


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## dww-law (Jun 1, 2007)

Tirzo
Someone who majored in biology should know the basics and the comment you made that "Any WC Blue Zaire that has extra stripes, is a good couple thousand years from having any kigoma blood in it" is factually not correct. You should also know that what I said about genetics is in fact correct. Hence, the non rebuttal.

Also, you selectively cut and paste things. I initially said they are cross breeds, MOST LIKELY KIGOMA. I also clearly stated they could very well not be Kigoma's but that it would easily explain the 7th stripe. You either selectively chose not to mention that or you have a hard time following a dialog. That's fine. I have no problem with that. However, you continue to bloviate that somehow it is genetically impossible for them to be cross bred with Kigoma because that is not what you have seen. You back that up by saying you majored in biology 25 years ago.

The only thing you have said that is factual is that there are oddities in the lake where some Zaires have 7 stripes. I never said there was not. Just like I said there are Zaires IN THE LAKE that have broken bars, missing bars, mooning, etc. However, it is NOT THE STANDARD.

And, as far as the "Best breeder in Ontario selling Zaires that are "Culls" (His words not mine) I will leave people to their own conclusions. I have never seen a top notch breeder sell off his "Culls." This would in fact hinder his reputation and ultimately hurt his business. Most top notch breeders would not sell some oddball culls for a quick buck to the few people who would pay "Top dollar" for what most consider an imperfect Front.

As I stated, the fact that the seller has placed two different variants in the same tank makes cross breeding likely and is highly revealing. Some people can't see the forest through the trees. You appear to be one of those people.

Also, yes I have seen several cross bred fronts. Both Zaires with Burundi and Zaires with Kigoma. Some looked very bad. A few looked like PERFECT Zaires. A few less perfect. They were culled and not allowed to continue in the genetic pool. Even, the ones that looked perfect. It is called responsible breeding.

The fronts for sale are IMPERFECT by the standard of the hobby. The imperfection could be due to CROSS BREEDING or a NATURAL ODITY. Given the sellers propensity to put different variants in the same tank, I will go with cross breeding since it has already been stated they were not WC from the lake, but captive bred culls. I did learn one thing in law school, if it looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, it flyâ€™s and swims like a duck, and it hangs out with a bunch of ducks, it is probably a duck. But hey, youâ€™re the biology major


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## becadavies (Apr 2, 2007)

wheatbackdigger said:


> shawntraviss said:
> 
> 
> > Theyre pure alright. He bought those from a friend of mine. My buddy picked those up, plus a bunch of "culls". Basically fry that had alot of crooked bars, extra bars etc. He got them for really cheap since the breeder just wanted to get rid of them since theyd grown to large for him to want to cull. The breeder is one of the biggest and best in Ontario though. I wont name names but trust me theyre pure kits.
> ...


Couldnt have said it better mysef =D>


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

IMHO, there is a big difference between a 'misbarred' cull and a fish with seven linear bands on both sides. i'm certainly relieved that a 'purist' did not discover the kigoma variant back in the day. otherwise, the lake might have been drained to rid that area of it's imperfections. :lol:
and please...ease up on the 'standard within the hobby' garb. i've seen enough tattooed and dyed fish to realize that no such standards exist.


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## dww-law (Jun 1, 2007)

Tattooed and dyed fish? Guess people will do anything to make a buck!


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## TangSteve (Sep 20, 2009)

And don't forget the zebra danios with jelly fish DNA and the Blood Parrots which IMO are the ugliest fish just knowing how they are made.


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## wheatbackdigger (May 11, 2008)

lloyd said:


> IMHO, there is a big difference between a 'misbarred' cull and a fish with seven linear bands on both sides. i'm certainly relieved that a 'purist' did not discover the kigoma variant back in the day. otherwise, the lake might have been drained to rid that area of it's imperfections. :lol:
> and please...ease up on the 'standard within the hobby' garb. i've seen enough tattooed and dyed fish to realize that no such standards exist.


A kitumba with seven bars, linear or not, is still a misbarred fish or possible hybrid. The fish should not of left the breeder's tank and should never be used to breed. Now they are for sale, who knows, maybe the next owner can breed a eight or nine barred front. I stand by my word, this breeder is irresponsible and a threat to the gene pool. Comparing a genetically inferior fish to a physically altered fish is comparing apples to oranges. Hopefully, the new owner buys the fish as an oddity and not for breeding intentions.


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

wheatbackdigger said:


> ...a threat to the gene pool.


 i see your point, of course, but there is no doubt a popular market exists for hybrid fish. like it ...or not.
on one side: if a breeder were capable to develop and deliver an appealing 7 bar gibb. to market, one can only imagine how that fish's $ value might compare to the existing values of accepted variant appearance types. IMHO, these fish have the capacity to entice.
the negative route: would be to allow these odd appearance fish to remain within (or join) a breeding colony of fish that better represent their variant. after all, a colony of show quality specimens also offers top value at fry time.
IMHO, unless this breeder culls from his spawning fish, ANY/ALL of his fry carry a potential to create further oddities down the line. my bet, is that these fish would reproduce a very high majority of 6 bar fry. and there are fair odds, that a few buyers from the other side of the cull counter, will also be looking at a few of their new fry with curiosity in the future.


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