# Completely confused......



## AfricanMike (Dec 15, 2006)

I'm totally interested on learning all about sumps and how they work, just everything to know about them. However, it seems like every time i read something about them, i just get more confused and have more questions. Any and all help would be appreciated, whether its explaining, drawing pictures, giving me a link to an article,etc. I get the general premise, but just lots of questions, lol. Thanks in advance for dealing with my thick-headed-self.


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## ccla (Feb 2, 2009)

Try this site: http://www.melevsreef.com/what_sump.html


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## Stickzula (Sep 14, 2007)

Here's another one http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/gt/index.php


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## AfricanMike (Dec 15, 2006)

Honestly, i know im gonna have to read through this a couple times and even write some questions down that arise.....but here's one. Since this would be used for an african cichlid tank and not a salt water tank, is it necessary to use a protein skimmer? Or is that just a part of any sump?


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## willny1 (Nov 17, 2008)

For the African tank, no you do not need the protein skimmer? They are used mostly in salt water tanks.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

willny1 said:


> For the African tank, no you do not need the protein skimmer? They are used mostly in salt water tanks.


 You don't need the skimmer, and if you wanted one just because, you'd be hard pressed to find one for freshwater. All the ones you see are for saltwater which has a different surface tension. A skimmer is either designed for fresh or saltwater, and difficult to retro.

The thing is, marine sea mix is expensive and complicated to mix properly, so you use a skimmer to minimize water changes. Cichilds generally like the stuff coming out of the tap with little or no adjusting. Marine tanks use skimmers. Cichlid tanks use water changes, kind of interchangeable since both are ways to renew the water quality.


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## AfricanMike (Dec 15, 2006)

Lol, reeeeaaaallly beginning to think that this is beyond my comprehension right now....always some new terms popping up. Not to mention i'm a hands on kind of person, reading about certain things just doesn't do it for me. However i'll keep reading up and ask questions if you guys don't mind.



> Try this site: http://www.melevsreef.com/what_sump.html


I like this cause there's alot of detail, but at the same time i believe it's confusing me, cause it's a design that's used more for saltwater tanks. I recognize some terms that i know don't belong on a freshwater tank, lol.


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## AfricanMike (Dec 15, 2006)

Basic question that could potentially could clear up most of the confusion......is the over flow box run simply by gravity combined with the continual input of water from the return pump? Or are there 2 separate pumps? Also, could i just use rubber tubing instead of PVC?


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## bell (Dec 12, 2005)

"the over flow box run simply by gravity combined with the continual input of water from the return pump"

that is exactly correct.


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## booba5 (May 3, 2008)

the easiest way i can describe a sump is just a never ending siphon, much like when you siphon water out of the tank into a bucket, except there is a pump inside the blucket pumping the water BACK up to the tank. Now, instead of the water siphoning into a bucket, the water will be siphoned into a smaller fish tank (or another container). Whatever filter material you want to use, should be placed inline with the sihpon. For example, I have the water draing from the ank into a 5 gallon bucket, I drilled a whole bunch of holes into this bucket, so the water flows right through. Then I simply filled the bucket with my filter media (for me it was dollar store pot scrubbies, and filter floss on top of that), and the pump just pumps the filtered water back into the tank.

Now for the overflow explanation...Overflows are an elaborate way to maintain the siphon when the power goes out (or water stops flowing for one reason or another, ie. you shut it off). Just like when you are siphoning water out of the tank, if you pull the "sucking" end of the hose out of the water, it'll break the siphon, if the "sucking" side (inlet) of the overflow is above the water level, the sihpon will be broke. This can be good when the power JUST shuts off becuase you dont want the overflow to empty the whole tank...but bad when the water flow (sump pump) turns back on, because the sump pump will pump ALL the water in the sump back up into the main tank...so basically if you have a 90 gallon and a 30 gallon sump (like me) you have rough estimate of 120 gallons of water...wont fit in a 90 gallon tank very well.

The basic idea behind an overflow is to keep both sides of the siphoning tube under water at all times, if they are both under water, air can't get in and break the siphon right? exactly. This might be confuzing, but I'll try explaining it further. A box hanging on the inside of the tank that water spills over INTO, and a box on the outside of the tank with a hole drilled in the bottom, and a hose\pipe\whatever you want to carry the water down to the sump. Now a hose connects the 2 boxes (from inside box to outside box). when the water level drops enough to STOP spilling over into the INSIDE box, there is still water in that box, so the inlet end of the tube is still under water, and the siphon is maintained. This same concept is used on the OUTSIDE box, you'd need to make sure the outlet end of the hose (that is in the OUTSIDE box) under water as well, so air has NO way to get in the siphoning tube.

I know thats a lot to sink in but if you have questions feel free to ask, I'll also post some pics up of my set up later to help it make more sense.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Yes you can use tubing instead of PVC, but it should be the kind that can't be be pinched shut. The best kind is smooth inside but has rings on the outside that prevent it from collapsing. Pet shops with saltwater sections, pond and koi stores should have a selection, and you might find them at garden stores and other places.

Rely on gravity to return water to the sump. You can never balance two pumps. The oveflow should be sized to handle the flow of the pump, plus a little.


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## AfricanMike (Dec 15, 2006)

You've ALL been helpful so far, seriously. But Booba, I've been reading everything i can for the last like 5 hrs, and that was the most comprehensible explanation i've come across. But yes, pictures would help especially with the overflow part. I understand what you say about the bucket:



> For example, I have the water draing from the ank into a 5 gallon bucket, I drilled a whole bunch of holes into this bucket, so the water flows right through. Then I simply filled the bucket with my filter media (for me it was dollar store pot scrubbies, and filter floss on top of that), and the pump just pumps the filtered water back into the tank.


Is it above the sump, or in the sump?
Depending on the buckets placement, how high would i feel the sump?
How do you figure out what pump to use? 
Better yet, if i use a Mag Drive 9.5, how do i determine how big my outlet should be?
Would it be easier if i purchased a tank that already had overflows?

I like to research and understand everything in advance. I researched african cichlids for a year before i had my first tank. I still have that tank although I'm not using it. Eventually i plan on getting a 125 and using my orginial 65 gal as the sump. Any thoughts, comments on this?


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## kjhydock (Apr 28, 2009)

From my mental picture of the quote, it logically seems like the pump would be below the bucket to return the water upwards.

The sump would be filled depending upon a few things...the flow from the tank, the overall water level, and the flow of the pump. In explanation - if the flow from the tank is greater than the flow out of the pump, it will obviously overflow at some point if the water level is too high. Vice versa, if the pump is too powerful for the flow from the tank, it too could cause an overflow if the water level is too high.

In case that all made no sense to you, the only place you will notice a change in water level is in the baffle where the pump is getting it's water from.

I think on one of those two sites, there is something that mentions the average ideal flow rate...I think it's something around cycling your tank 7 times in 1 hour. So if your tank is 110 gallons then a 770 gph pump would be ideal, I think.

You can also make minor adjustments depending upon the gear you get. My pump was wayyy to strong (1400 GPH) so I had to make a very large spray bar to soften the flow. Another thing I could have done was make an adjustable Y gate to direct some of the flow back into the refugium.

Personally, I purchased my 2nd tank pre-drilled and with the overflow box built in. I wouldn't have minded doing it myself with the exception of the drilling. I'm a little scared of drilling a hole in glass since I've never done it before, but I'm sure someone here has and can share their experience with you. Bottom line, if you do it yourself, you know it'll be done how you want it.

I'll attach a pic of my sump I just built - feel free to PM me any questions and I'll do my best to help.


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## AfricanMike (Dec 15, 2006)

Thanks for the advice, pic and offer dock.

More questions (i know you guys can't wait )
Is it better to have the heater(s) closer to the input of the sump, or the output?

To me it seems like a higher chance of the heater(s) to fail, since it (they) would be heating a smaller volume of water that's constantly dumping into a larger volume of water.

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewI...kers-Saltwater_Aquarium_Supplies~vendor~.html

What do you guys think of this, and would it be wise/ok to use it on the return? Or if used at all, would it be better just to use it on a closed loop system?

http://www.melevsreef.com/video/scwd.wmv
This video shows how the above works....


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## kjhydock (Apr 28, 2009)

I'm not sure how that thing works exactly. It sounds like it needs a pump for it to work? It's getting late so maybe I'm not reading it very well.

Also, about the heater - I'm not sure either. I just put it into the drain because it was always going to have a constant volume of water. Regardless, it seems to be working well there. in the total 110~gallons the 300w heater has it sitting perfectly at 82*.


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## AfricanMike (Dec 15, 2006)

I'm not really sure either, although it is interesting to me. Considering as how it's not supposed to use any electricity or what not, yet still switches the output in 2 directions. In the video (there's also some pictures that i had to study real close) you can't tell but it's just a closed loop design. He has an inlet pipe with holes drilled that's attached to a Mag Drive with a pre-filter i believe, that then diverts to the SCWD and switches the output from side to side. It actually isn't hooked up directly to his sump, definitely some major movement going on in that tank.


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## AfricanMike (Dec 15, 2006)

Ok guys, got some other ones, lol.

How is the flow of the overflows determined? (i.e. the max input into your overflows)

I keep reading on other threads "#" ft. of head. I know that refers to how much distance there is in tubing to the output/input up to the the tank, but not entirely clear what that means.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_skimmerless_overflow.php
Give bulldogg`s article a read, a really good discription of the whole overflow/sump workings. :thumb:


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## kjhydock (Apr 28, 2009)

Part of the overflows flow rate is determined by the volume of water above the drain level. Obviously more water means more pressure which means more flow. The rest is up to the drain pipe design and size of the outlet holes. I made two 1" Durso standpipes for my two 1" drain holes. I could have tried to make them 1.5", but I didn't have enough room for them in the overflow boxes.

Keep the questions coming. Also another thread you might want to check is Lowcell's DIY Sump.


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## AfricanMike (Dec 15, 2006)

I replied but for some reason it didn't post......Is there a formula or something to determine the overflow flow rate? Dock, could you use your setup as an example?


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## kjhydock (Apr 28, 2009)

I haven't been able to find a specific formula for it. I unfortunately just did it and had to improvise a bit to make it work together. I say get the pump that best suits what you think you will need and work around it - that's pretty much what I did. I had to rebuild the stand pipes once to accommodate more flow as well as to correct a construction flaw.

As I said before, you can always use ball valves to slow the flow rate coming from either the pump or the drain.


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## Rick_Lindsey (Aug 26, 2002)

AfricanMike said:


> To me it seems like a higher chance of the heater(s) to fail, since it (they) would be heating a smaller volume of water that's constantly dumping into a larger volume of water.


I don't know why the heater would be more likely to fail... the heater is underwater, and it's either on or off, it doesn't know or care how big the sump is, only what temperature it's thermostat reads and what it's setting is.



AfricanMike said:


> <url for SCWD snipped>
> What do you guys think of this, and would it be wise/ok to use it on the return? Or if used at all, would it be better just to use it on a closed loop system?


These are cool little devices. I bought one for my 100-gallon tank, but there wasn't enough room in the stand to do a sump properly, so I never used it except playing around with it. It definately worked with my Mag-Drive 9.5 though! You put it after the pump, before the tank, and then plumb two returns to the tank. The current alternates between flowing out one pipe, then the other. The bigger your pump the more efficient the whole beast is (there is some flow loss to the SCWD, more noticable with a smaller pump), but also the faster it switches.

I was planning to emulate a "surge" effect for the gobies I was planning to put in the tank.

-Rick (the armchair aquarist)


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## brycerb (Dec 23, 2007)

I tried using a protein skimmer on a cichlid tank and it failed misserably, even with the little salt I add it would not work.


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## AfricanMike (Dec 15, 2006)

i was thinking of a Mag Drive 7 for a 125.....


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

brycerb said:


> I tried using a protein skimmer on a cichlid tank and it failed misserably, even with the little salt I add it would not work.


 Protein skimmers were first invented for fresh water, but unless you get one for a koi pond, you are only going to find skimmers designed for saltwater. Saltwater needs them so they are on the market. With freshwater, you can get the same effect on water quality by doing a water change.


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## BinaryWhisper (May 5, 2006)

the squid is a pretty cool gizmo but why do you want to replicate ocean/reef style currents in an African tank?

I have multiple tanks with approx 600 gallons of freshwater running though a 75 gallon sump (which is a little small for that capacity and requires a well tuned sump) running a mag 3600 (which after accounting for head) pumping a little over 3000 gph. The return lines to the tanks are 3/4" and the feed line to the sump is 1 1/2" pipe. I have another 200 gallons of tanks in the same room that are plumped to the sump but are not actually running on the system but are using home built sponge filters, one per tank.

Sumps are extremely simple. When you are trying to understand sumps start off by ignoring the filtration aspect completely. It is a box of water fed by gravity that uses a pump to complete the circuit. That's it.

The only consideration that needs to be added is that when the pump turns off the sump should have enough room to absorb the water that will continue draining for the next couple of minutes. Also the line that returns water to the aquarium from the sump has to set so that it does not siphon the water back into the sump once the power is off. That is as simple as placing the return at the surface or feeding a spray bar at the surface.

That is a complete sump.

So now that we have a box of water that has a strong current running though it we can add something to filter the water. That does not have to be anything fancy either. A big block of sponge set in the middle of the sump that is tall enough that the water has to go though the sponge vs. over it would make a completely functional sump. All of the other fancy stuff is just that, fancy stuff and in may cases it only adds something to the design in the designers mind.

A great many commercial sumps are intentionally made to appear complex in order to bolster sales and the price. Salt water, especially reef sumps appear complex only because of all the other stuff that is placed into the sump but that stuff is not part of the sump. Skimmers, refractors, injectors, UV filters, etc ,etc, etc, are not part of the sump. The sump is simply a great place to house them but do not let all of that **** cloud your understanding of a sump.

A sump does not have to be a box of water either. One of my favorites and a method that is gaining in popularity is to use a stand that stacks one tank over another and use one fully stocked aquarium to filter another fully stocked aquarium. The top tank in your case would be your African tank and the bottom would be a well planted tank with at least 6 inches of substrate, a strong algae encouraging light source and maybe some clams.

Most freshwater sumps are wet systems vs. most saltwater sumps are wet/dry systems. My freshwater is a wet/dry and to be frank if I was going to build just a wet system I wouldn't waste time with a sump. I'd just build a large sealed canister using an old swimming pool sand filter.


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## AfricanMike (Dec 15, 2006)

Really great way to put it Binary. The part I'm having trouble with now, is that i don't get how to determine how many gph is possible with your overflow box.....is it truly just trial and error? or is there a tried and true method of determining how much your overflows would be able to handle, thus providing you an idea of what pump to use?


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## BinaryWhisper (May 5, 2006)

Well there are two way to tackle the flow rate of the over flow.

Method one, approach it like an engineer and do all the math and figure it out. Once you have the exact size required to flow the amount of water you need to calculate the amount of reserve capacity you require and design an over flow to meet those requirements.

Method two, just buy or build an over flow that is obviously bigger then you will ever need.

If you had the education and or background for method one you would be telling us how to do it not asking us  .... so I suggest method two.  Method two has served me and 10's of 1000's of aquarists (is that actually a word?) around the world very well over the years.


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

Mcdaphnia said:


> brycerb said:
> 
> 
> > I tried using a protein skimmer on a cichlid tank and it failed misserably, even with the little salt I add it would not work.
> ...


I have a working skimmer on my 255g African tank. My Ph is around 8 and I do run salts. The best parts about this skimmer is that not only was it free to built (I used a pop bottle and a couple of plumbing parts I had lying around) it's also free to run as it uses the gravity from the overflow.

It works by having the overflow tube going straight down to the bottom of my sump where it goes into a 90 the 90 has a small section of pipe attached to it with the top cut off. All the water ecapes around the bottom of the funnel but the air naturally rises into the pop bottle creating the skimmate. I get anywhere from tea colored to dark brown water.

I'm also working on a diy venturi skimmer for my tank. I guess I just love to tinker. DuaneS is another member on here (and other sites) who gave me the plans for the venturi skimmer which has been working on his freshwater cichlid tank for years. I'll post my build up in the DIY section about the building of my venturi skimmer if it works :thumb:


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## BinaryWhisper (May 5, 2006)

BenHugs said:


> It works by having the overflow tube going straight down to the bottom of my sump where it goes into a 90 the 90 has a small section of pipe attached to it with the top cut off. All the water ecapes around the bottom of the funnel but the air naturally rises into the pop bottle creating the skimmate. I get anywhere from tea colored to dark brown water.


Interesting. I have no significant amount of air entering my sump but apparently you must have quite a bit. Doesn't that make for a lot of gurgling noises and such? My sump is essentially silent with the pump being the only noticeable noise.


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## AfricanMike (Dec 15, 2006)

In the sump (65gal, 48") I was thinking of sectioning it every 16", and instead of creating the usual baffle, drill holes EVERYWHERE on it (just picture vertical peg board every 16"). The first section containing a whole bunch of filter floss, the second pot scrubbers and the third, either leaving it empty with the exception of the pump or put some more sand and plants along with the pump......what do you guys think of this layout?

Or should i just put the filter floss on top of the pot scrubbers, still leaving the sectioning every 16", the plants in the middle, and the 3rd section empty with the pump?


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

BinaryWhisper said:


> BenHugs said:
> 
> 
> > It works by having the overflow tube going straight down to the bottom of my sump where it goes into a 90 the 90 has a small section of pipe attached to it with the top cut off. All the water ecapes around the bottom of the funnel but the air naturally rises into the pop bottle creating the skimmate. I get anywhere from tea colored to dark brown water.
> ...


Any of my noise is from my dursa stand pipe in my overflow as I haven't had the time to tune it. The air entering my sump is from the water taking the 6' plunge from the top tank into the sump much like the air bubbles entering your tank when you fill it. All of this turbulence happens under water in the pipe which is probably why it's so quiet. If I let this same overflow just hit the waters surface it would be pretty noisey. It's also behind a closed door keeping it even quieter.


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## AfricanMike (Dec 15, 2006)

> In the sump (65gal, 48") I was thinking of sectioning it every 16", and instead of creating the usual baffle, drill holes EVERYWHERE on it (just picture vertical peg board every 16"). The first section containing a whole bunch of filter floss, the second pot scrubbers and the third, either leaving it empty with the exception of the pump or put some more sand and plants along with the pump......what do you guys think of this layout?
> 
> Or should i just put the filter floss on top of the pot scrubbers, still leaving the sectioning every 16", the plants in the middle, and the 3rd section empty with the pump?


Bad idea, good idea?


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## jwal (Jan 17, 2008)

AfricanMike said:


> > In the sump (65gal, 48") I was thinking of sectioning it every 16", and instead of creating the usual baffle, drill holes EVERYWHERE on it (just picture vertical peg board every 16"). The first section containing a whole bunch of filter floss, the second pot scrubbers and the third, either leaving it empty with the exception of the pump or put some more sand and plants along with the pump......what do you guys think of this layout?
> >
> > Or should i just put the filter floss on top of the pot scrubbers, still leaving the sectioning every 16", the plants in the middle, and the 3rd section empty with the pump?
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if the filter floss in the first section will be effective in a horizontal flow like that... unless the water enters before the filter floss and the water cant flow around it


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## willny1 (Nov 17, 2008)

willny1 said:


> For the African tank, no you do not need the protein skimmer? They are used mostly in salt water tanks.


Oops.  Didn't mean to use the question mark.


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## AfricanMike (Dec 15, 2006)

I could be wrong, but it seems like my idea could work, because the pump would sit on the other side and "pull" the water through the 3 different sections. Correct me if there's anything wrong in my reasoning.


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## AfricanMike (Dec 15, 2006)

Where'd all my help go? lol


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## Rick_Lindsey (Aug 26, 2002)

If I understand correctly, you'd need to make sure your water level was below the level of your baffles, even with the pump running (since the pump side of your sump is likely to have a lower water level than the return side what with all those perforated bafffles and filter media in between). You'd also have to be sure you fill each section to the brim with your medium of choice, since if the water can go over/under your medium instead of through it -- it will! Path of least resistance and all that .

Avoid the gotchas though and I don't see why it would be unworkable. Baffles give you a longer linear-controlled flow (you force the water to go along here, and then up there, and then down here), whereas in your system it only has to go left to right, along the aforementioned path of least resistance. This means that any given "bit" of water will likely travel through less media than a more conventional baffle setup, but I suspect you'll be fine regardless.

-Rick (the armchair aquarist, who doesn't plan to have any baffles at all in his sump!)


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## kjhydock (Apr 28, 2009)

Rick did a good job of summing up the issues with that setup. The biggest issue I see would be water level. It would be controlled solely by the power of the pump so you could either have very little water through the entire sump, with the risk of killing your beneficial bacteria or too much water and just have a wet/wet with a high likelyhood of overflowing. It could be right in the middle too, but there's just too much at chance for my liking.

I personally just made my 10g a sump for my 55g from boredom and leftover parts. All it cost me was the $2 and change for the 1 baffle i put right in the middle of it.

If i had that much sump to play around with, I'd make the drain, bubble trap, filter media/drip tray, refugium, then return. That's just me though.


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## bigpipe (Jun 18, 2009)

What does this mean? Im still a little confused, does this mean Halo 3 has two DLC completion badges? What about Fable 2 and Fallout 3?


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