# Finally! Babies!



## LTrue (Feb 15, 2009)

So she finally released her fry after moving her to a separate 29g set up. 
We've counted close to 50 fry...I can't seem to find anything to reference as far as number of fish we should expect so can anyone tell me if this is normal? We're freaking out thinking what in the world are we going to do with all of these fish! I mean I'm sure not all will make it but WOW! I'll post pics as soon as I can. 
So I've got the filters covered, brine shrimp in the freezer and we're all set...I think. 
Anything else I should know about fry?

thanks so much!
Lisa


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## cevvin (May 2, 2008)

Keep their water clean as possible. Water changes daily. What kind of fry?


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## LTrue (Feb 15, 2009)

Hi again cevvin! 
20% water changes? Is that okay?

Please don't laugh but what do you mean "What kind of fry"?


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## gmaschke (Aug 23, 2008)

What species is what he meant.

Have fun it's very enjoyable raisng fry!


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## LTrue (Feb 15, 2009)

Thanks gmaschke...I probably sound ridiculous and I'm sorry but I didn't know what he meant. Now that I know what he meant I still don't know!

Honestly we started out last year with a small tank and just a few tiny little african cichlids. We had no ideas what we were in for! The pet shop told us not to worry that they would "Grow in to the tank"...they shot right past that and kept going. Now we have babies to boot so at least I know we're doing something right. It's turning in to a full time hobby for us and that's okay by me. 
I just discovered this forum the other day and am blown away by the amount of info available. I'm pretty psyched just by some of the ideas alone. On that note I also noticed the unidentified cichlid section that I've been meaning to post in. I don't have any ideas on what species exactly they are. I can post over there and get some answers. 
Without being really ridiculous, the father is bright solid orange and the mother WAS black with yellow tipped fins. Now she's more on the purple / black spectrum with yellow tipped fins. 
I'm sure color alone isn't enough to identify them so I'll post over there and see what those that are much more educated than I have to say. 
Thanks so much for all of your help thus far!
PS, I've got LOTS of babies and they are eating / pecking at the brine! YAY~


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## Floridagirl (Jan 10, 2008)

I'm going to tell you what many are too nice to say. Unless the parents are the same species, you shouldn't keep the fry. They will be hybrids, and undesirable. It's kind of like letting your full bred poodle have babies with the mutt next door. Chances are, no one will want the babies but you for sentimental reasons!
I know you are excited about your first babies, but it is much easier to dispose of them at this point, then when they grow. If you throw them into the main tank now, nature will take it's course. With proper planning, you can have full blooded babies to raise and sell or distribute to friends.


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## LTrue (Feb 15, 2009)

Bless your heart Florida Girl...Thank you for the words of advice. Looks like I have LOTS to learn yet. 
Well, I was able to identify the parent (I hope correctly) 
Here are some pics: 

























The first is of course LOTS of the babies. 
The second pic is the father (on the right...orange)
The last is the mother

I THINK the mother is an Acei (Msuli) 
I THINK the father is metriaclima barlowi

On the water change topic should I shoot for about 20% every day? 
What's the average number of fry that survive? I mean is it likely that all of these little buggers will make it? In the future I suppose it would be best to just leave them all in the main tank (let nature take its course) rather than separate her? I really don't know what we'll do with all of these little fish!

Thanks all!


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## Floridagirl (Jan 10, 2008)

In my neck of the woods, Bless your heart is synonomous with you nosy biddy....lol  
Your babies' dad is probably a Red Zebra (Metriaclima Estherae). This is much more common thatn the Barlowi. Also, mbuna(which you have) are herbivores, so spirulina flake is better than beine shrimp. New Life Spectrum is probably the most used food on the Forum, bacause it can be feed to herbivores and carnivores. It has a good amount of protein, but lots of veggie matter also. Another good method of fry control, is to add some Synodontis Multis. They are a great looking catfish, that help keep spawning to a minimum. Truth of the matter is that it's more difficult to prevent babies than having them. :wink:


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## LTrue (Feb 15, 2009)

Good morning Floridagirl! 
No I didn't mean anything rude at all! Promise!  
So spirulina flake would be the way to go? I'll pick some up today. 
I've been doing exactly as the aquarium shop told me to with the frozen brine, thawing them in a shot glass and then dumping in to the tank but I haven't seen any of the fry eating it...yet. 
They've picked at a few flakes that I dropped in for the mom but that was it so far.

Just a few last questions so I can take care of our mutt fish...LOL
1. 20% water changes daily?
2. How long can I leave mom in with them before moving her back to the general tank?
3. How likely is it that all of these little fry will make it? I'm trying to figure out how we'll accommodate that many fish.

Thanks again!


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## Dave (Feb 9, 2003)

LTrue,

Here is a bit of food for thought. If you care for these babies it is possible that they ALL could survive. So, what are you going to do with 40-50 hybrids? Giving them away is not a viable option as it only perpetuates the problem in the hobby. Also, the parents are very likely to spawn again in 4-6 weeks, which means you are going to have another batch of hybrid fry. Once your fry begin to mature, they will start spawning as well.

I think you can get the idea that this is potentially a cycle that can quickly spin out of control. So what do you do?

Me personally, I do not allow hybrids to grow in my tanks. I understand that others have a different view, and are not able to bring themselves to remove hybrids. However, I can say that it is a lot easier to do when they are small than when they get large.

If you want to keep all of these fish then that is your decision. If you would like help with a solution, then I can help with that too.


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## LTrue (Feb 15, 2009)

Dave said:


> LTrue,
> 
> Here is a bit of food for thought. If you care for these babies it is possible that they ALL could survive. So, what are you going to do with 40-50 hybrids? Giving them away is not a viable option as it only perpetuates the problem in the hobby. Also, the parents are very likely to spawn again in 4-6 weeks, which means you are going to have another batch of hybrid fry. Once your fry begin to mature, they will start spawning as well.
> 
> ...


Wow. Just wow. I admit I was ignorant about this whole process. Really had no idea this could happen. I appreciate you and Floridagirl's candor about the situation. The funny thing is I'm such an advocate for SPAY & NEUTER so there are no unwanted puppies and kittens and here I am with a whole tankful of fish! LOL
So it is entirely plausible that all of these fry could survive? When you say "Perpetuates the problem in the hobby" could you elaborate? Again, I really wasn't aware of all of this. Thought I was doing the right thing in separating the mom & fry...etc.

Thank you.


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## LTrue (Feb 15, 2009)

Hi Dave, 
I did a little research and really did not know anything (if it wasn't apparent enough) about the problems with hybrids / cross breeding...etc. Now I do. 
Thank you everyone that hasn't flamed me for this yet. 
Of course we weren't intentionally breeding them nor do we have any intention of distributing them. 
But to be point blank. What do we do now? 
How do I prevent them from spawning in the future? Keep them in separate tanks? If so then should I only have one species of fish in each tank?


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## Dave (Feb 9, 2003)

The only way to keep fish from spawning is to have only one sex of fish in the tank. Unless you plan on keeping an all-male tank, and your tank is large enough to accommodate, you will need another solution. The other options are to keep single species tanks, or to only keep species that have a low risk of hybridizing. In these two options you will still need to keep sufficient ratios of males: females for each species. You also will need to consider your tank size to determine which of these options is viable. In general you will want to keep 1 male with 3-4 females, when keeping mbuna. Tank size will limit the number of species, the size of groups, and which species to consider.

Personally, I would cull these fry, meaning I would make sure they never are able to spawn. How would I do this? Feed the fry back to the tank, or feed them to someone else's fish if they have predators. Again, this is much easier to deal with when they are small.

The next step will be to stop the parents from spawning with the wrong species by following one of the suggestions above. If you would like help with that, please list your tanks size (length x height) and your current species and numbers. If you know the sexes, that would be great too.


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## LTrue (Feb 15, 2009)

Hi Dave, 
I don't know what species we have. We've got 9 "African Cichlids" and 1 Pleco. 
A 55g and a 29g tank right now. 
I'll work on identifying them this evening...more than likely here on the forum and I'll post. 
I really appreciate your help. Everyone's help in fact.

The fish store really didn't break it down like this for us. Really never discussed species or tank set up either. Not even yesterday when we were in and visited him to pick up some brine shrimp for the fry, he never said this wouldn't be a good thing (the babies)

From the start (of the very first tank last year) he said we'd need some rocks, sold us the filters, the food...etc. 
Now I'm really interested in learning what fish we have and more about them. 
I'd like to do it as responsibly as possible and not have babies all over the place. 
I'll post later on today with fish info (I'm at work now).


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## Dave (Feb 9, 2003)

Unless the store specializes in Africans they usually are not a good source of information. They think that all African Cichlids can be housed together. Often the advice is pretty much what you got. Get a 55 (sometimes much smaller tanks are recommended), add rocks, and then what ever fish you want. These types of places often sell "assorted" cichlids, mix species that should not be mixed, or just have poor descriptions in general.

The best thing to do at this point is take profile shots of all your fish and post them in the unidentified folder for identification.


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## LTrue (Feb 15, 2009)

Thank you Dave. 
This is sort of discouraging all of a sudden. We just found this site the other day and I've been hooked ever since. 
Until now our resident expert has been a small fish shop down the road. He's been our go-to for all of our questions. We thought we were doing so well (read: they are all alive) for the last year or so. Never had any idea there was so much more to it. 
Now I know we have to do a bit of aquascaping in our tanks, add more plants, cull the babies, identify the species. It's a little overwhelming but I'm hopeful that we'll come out of it all the better. Perhaps even more educated so when friends / guests ask about the fish we actually know what we're talking about.

With regard to our pet store you're exactly right. They were explained to us that they all come from one of three lakes in South Africa and can only be housed with each other and no other fish except plecos. That, some lava rocks, cichlid flakes, heater and filters and we were on our way.

Guess I'm blessed we've made it this long.


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## morningsky (Apr 22, 2008)

Don't get too discouraged  . Everyone goes through a few rough spots when it comes to fishkeeping.

My aquarium has gone through many changes since my first fish. I started with "assorted fish" and red zebras, a socolofi ,venustus and some yellowtail acei. Oh yeah, just for fun, I had bought a johanni. Not a good mix of fish. Wow! Those fish were brutal. (you know something is not right when your children are begging you to stop your fish from fighting) :?

I had not a clue that Assorted Africans meant an assortment of mostly unknown hybrids. I thought it meant many different species were kept together. :lol:

Out of all the fish I originally started with I kept only two. I am now working on a peacock-hap tank. This has to led to fry of unknown orgin. I just leave them in my aquarium. They tend to disapear.

This forum has saved me a lot of worry and headaches when it comes to my fish. :fish:


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## LTrue (Feb 15, 2009)

So "Assorted African Cichlids" means that they are probably just a bunch of hybrids?


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## morningsky (Apr 22, 2008)

That has been my experience with assorted cichlids. A LFS at one time actually labeled the Assorted fish as - "mutts" and explained that they were hybrids.


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## Dave (Feb 9, 2003)

LTrue said:


> So "Assorted African Cichlids" means that they are probably just a bunch of hybrids?


It can mean this, or it can mean a bunch of unidentified fish. These sorts of tanks are definitely buyer beware.

If it makes you feel any better, let me tell you about my first encounter with African Cichlids. Granted, this was when I was 11 or 12, but the situation applies. I had a 20 gallon community tank with neons, other tetras, and a couple of black veil angels. One day I saw what was labeled as kirbensis, and I was told it was fine to house them with my community tank. I put one "holey" rock in the tank and my kribs took over that rock and soon spawned. Shortly after the spawn one of the angles was dead. I didn't know what was happening, until we caught the female kirb cornering the last angel. What I learned that day was several things. My kribs were actually Julidochromis, and Angels will eat fry and neons, which is why my neons were found floating in the tank without heads, too. The female Julie was just protecting her fry from a marauding Angel.

Solution, the Julies were moved to their own tank and spawned happily for along time. So you see, we were all once in the early stages of learning about our fish. 30 years later I still love fish, and I am partial to African Cichlids, though I have kept a wide range of tank types, including saltwater reefs.


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## morningsky (Apr 22, 2008)

> Angels will eat fry and neons, which is why my neons were found floating in the tank without heads, too.


I just got back into fish about a year ago.

One of my early fish keeping experiences 20 years back was also "the mystery of the disappearing neons." Angels find them quite tasty.

I also learned a certain catfish will eat all the fins off a betta. What a shock it was, waking up to a betta with no fins. That was one crazy community tank. :roll:


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## LTrue (Feb 15, 2009)

You are all making me feel much better about this. 
It's hard to be remember 100% but I'm fairly certain that our fish all came from one of those glorious "Assorted African Cichlid" tanks. Good times. Good times.

Once I'm home this evening I'll post pics of all 9 of them and maybe even one of Mr. Belvedere (our gigantic pleco) for good measure. 
Then I'll know for sure what they are and where they should go. After that I think I'm off to read about aquascaping and different ideas for the tank set up.

I thought I was obsessed with my jeep (always on the forums, buying ALL kind of stuff, tweaking stuff) but I think fish are getting to be much worse!

Lisa


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## Dave (Feb 9, 2003)

They don't call us cichlaholics, cichlophiles, and cichlidiots for nothing.


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## Floridagirl (Jan 10, 2008)

We have all been there. My first fry were zebra/Lab hybrids. I didn't know and gave them to a friend.. I couldn't figure out why they didn't have the black stripe like the Lab mother did. She culled them for me..by accident. :? I'm not sure what happened, she wasn't maintaining like I would have liked. I won't give her anymore fish! Nor do I keep any fish from the community tank unless I see the spawn. Fortunately for me, my fish get frisky after water changes, and I can usually catch them in the act.


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## LTrue (Feb 15, 2009)

Hi gang! I'm home and I'm going to post all 9 pictures over on the unidentified cichlid forum. Once I have some kind of idea what they all are I'll post that info here and maybe someone can point me in the right direction!
Thanks to all!


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## LTrue (Feb 15, 2009)

I posted all 9 of my "assorted cichlids"  over on the unidentified cichlid board. Here's a link! 
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... p?t=188971


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## jfly (Feb 17, 2009)

okay a question when doing 20 water changes do you have to put conditioner in every time??


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