# Brichardi: First timer, Breeding probability, behavior



## digitallinh2 (Dec 29, 2012)

I set this 29 gallon up about a week or two ago (cycled via transferring entire canister from an established tank) attempting to breed something for the first time, I chose the Brichardi Daffodil. They've been in about 3-4 days now. Just planted the tank yesterday transferring in some plants from my other tank, can't wait till it grows in.

I bought 3 good sized fish, about 2-2.5 inches in length, you can see them pictured below. I really want to turn this into a Brichardi colony.

The second largest one spends most of its time in the main cave network that dominates the tank, it really only comes out to eat. The smallest one spends most of it's time on the far right. The third one, and biggest one, goes into both caves and pretty much goes everywhere, but spends most of his time inside the biggest cave network. The biggest one lightly chases the other 2, and the second biggest one chases the smallest one. Nothing crazy, just some light ushering.

I had a few questions.

1. Is the likelihood that I get a breeding pair pretty good with 3? Should I get 3 more? and if so, will it matter if they are smaller and from a different source?

2. Typically with brichardi, if one is excavating a breeding site is it male or female? Would the one that spends most of it's time inside the main cave be the alpha male or female?

3. I feel like the 2 that man the caves are female and the biggest one that patrols both is a male? If so, is it possible to have 2 mating pairs with one male and they all get along? If they are from the same colony will that make it easier?

4. What do you guys think of my setup/aquascape. Do I need more cave networks for a potential colony? I focused mainly on trying to build them something that they will like. The main cave is a pretty intricate group of holey rock and driftwood so there's a lot of nooks and crannies under there. Will they dig it up/collapse the structure?

Thank you much for your time!


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## Samadhikash (Jun 16, 2015)

I'm horrible at statistics so I can't offer the formula to calculate the odds here. But if I remember correctly your chance at a male and female out of 3 is somewhere in the mid 80% range and out of 6 is in the upper 90% range. But if you bought let's say the three largest out of a group of 10 that could seriously skew the theoretical odds of getting a pair.

I started with seven juvenile Daffodils from the same colony about six months ago. Between everything I've read and countless hours of observation, I still don't fully understand this fish. I'll also say that I'm still waiting for my first spawn so I can't say with 100% certainty that I even have a productive pair at this point-even though I'm down to two fish in the tank. I'll offer what I feel confident about and let others with more experience fill in the gaps.

Based on studies of these fish in the wild, one male can keep two females. It's not the norm, but it can and does happen. How that might play out in the limited confines of our tanks I don't know. When this happens in the wild, the male maintains two adjoining breeding sites, with one active breeding female per site. I thought I had this situation in my 55g. One male and a single female at either far end-that was my working theory anyway. They existed like that for nearly a month-two defined territories, but the largest and most dominant fish (which I'm assuming male) spent the majority of its time on one side. The dominant fish moved huge amounts of substrate and included a 6" tunnel under a large flat bottomed rock on the side where he spent most of his time. Then one day, with no observable warning signs, the dominant fish and the fish on the less active side of the tank (which I assumed to be a secondary and slightly smaller female) nearly beat the stuffing out of the fish that he'd previously spent almost all his time with. (That fish is recovering nicely in a separate tank now.) I kept anticipating that the secondary and smaller female was going to be ostracized, but that's not what happened. And it happened between breakfast and dinner.

Hopefully my story answers some of your questions at least in an indirect way. One thing I know for sure is these fish are behaviorally complex. Based on studies I've read I can offer the following&#8230;.In the dominant pair of a colony, the largest fish is not always the male. However, it seems the dominant male is always larger than the subdominant males even if just by a hair. These fish are able to regulate their growth in part relative to the dominance hierarchy. Also, researchers have examined the "personality" of these fish and found they vary in characteristics like adventurous or cautious and aggressive or accommodating. It's theorized these factors also effect mate selection strategies and the social dynamic and hierarchy. (I wish I could give you the links, but I recently suffered a hard drive failure and I'm now paying the price for inadequate backups.)

Good luck and enjoy. I'm fascinated by them.


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## digitallinh2 (Dec 29, 2012)

Thank you so much for your insight... their behavior from what I've surmised in my week having them is what you say, pretty complex.

So to complicate my experiment even more, I bought 3 more daffodils from a different source yesterday, slightly smaller. And here is what I've seen so far:

1. The original group (I bought 3 of various sizes.) is at war with the 3 new ones. The one leading the charge is the one I thought was the male. It's relentless. The smallest one from the original group seems to assist the biggest ones by herding the new guys into attack range. It's pretty wild, it's like they have _strategy_....I have that grass floating in the upper right, and the three new ones always end up there. The two biggest fish seemed to have staked out the front corner on the left there. They attack for awhile then go back together to their side of the tank.

2. The aggression towards the original smallest one has picked up a bit too. They mostly leave it alone but sometimes try to spear him/her. Most times the original 3 swim together in harmony. I feel like they mistake the smallest one for some of the new guys, not sure. But it's never serious like it is with the others.

Here is what I'm thinking. I'm resisting the urge to net the at least one of the new ones out and put them in my large tang community tank. I feel like the presence of sexual competition will urge, might not be the right word here but I don't want to sit here thinking about it hah, will urge the 2 I think will pair up to spawn. The downside of "letting nature take it's course" is I'm probably going to end up with dead/stressed fish, which I can live with, I think.

The other option is to start saving them, which is ok too. I'm surprised yours have not spawned yet, do they hang out together?

I'd love to read that study you were talking about, happen to know any info on it? Author? School?

Here is my current situation right now. Poor guys all stuck over there... You can see, I've thought about netting them. Like I said, I think I've decided I'm not going to.


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## Samadhikash (Jun 16, 2015)

At the end of the day, I chose to remove the fish that had been rejected simply so I could take a shot at getting a "back up" pair in case the whole process went terribly wrong for me. Even so, I lost two fish to night time attacks. Right now, I do have what I believe are two pair.

It took five months for my seven fish to sort themselves down to a single pair in my 55g. For nearly two months I had three fish on the left side of the tank and a single fish on the right hand side. Then some unknown switch flipped and I suddenly had two on the left and one on the right. Then, like I said earlier, another switch flipped and I was down to two fish. Definitely hoping that a spawn is not far off at this point. My experience has certainly unfolded differently than folks who've put a few fish in the tank and had them spawn the next day, LOL. I'm generally pretty patient though so I haven't stressed over it.

As I rebuild my links list I'll forward them along to you. I'll see if I can't track down that study in the next few days.


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## digitallinh2 (Dec 29, 2012)

Yeah hopefully you have a m/f pair in there...I kind of wish I started this in a bigger tank so these poor fish aren't stuck in a corner.

I suppose I'll just try my best to not stress over it anymore, it seems like it's basically impossible to predict until you see fry. I probably made a mistake adding 3 more to this situation. Awesome fish though. Easily my favorite to keep so far.


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## digitallinh2 (Dec 29, 2012)

So I'm just curious. These two pictured below are the dominant fish in the tank. Out of 6, these two seem to be bullying the rest around. The most aggressive one is the one I think is a male, in picture #2. Has a slight hump on it's head.

Picture #3 is the one I think is the female, she hangs out mostly in her cave.

Picture #1 is the two of them together

Am I right? Or there is no telling?

#1 : Two of them hanging out in front of their cave









#2: The "male" getting ready to chase something









#3: The "female" hanging out in front of her cave


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## rufretic (Mar 30, 2015)

Beautiful tank and fish! I wish you luck getting them to breed. It sounds like it is a challenge to get a pair but once you have one, then they wont stop producing lol.


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## Quiggs (Dec 24, 2015)

I had a a breeding colony of daffodils a while back and will never get more than one daffodil again. They breed like rabbits and create a colony almost like bees, and in a 29 gallon tank you will not be able to have any other fish in there (just my experience). The colony becomes aggressive by generation to generation and will become a strong family. It is fun to watch the colony very active I am just more of a community tank lover.


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## The Dude315 (May 19, 2015)

I can't be of any help, but that's a great looking tank!


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

The odds of getting a pair in theory with 3 fish are 75%. With 6 fish those odds increase to about 97%. I would get more. Getting them from a different source is preferable.

Your tank is stunning. =D>


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## digitallinh2 (Dec 29, 2012)

Thank you everyone for the kind words, I don't think I ever stop tinkering with the tank....

I have 6 currently, with 3 each from different sources. Hopefully it happens for me soon, patiently waiting.


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## ColoradoAquarist (Jan 5, 2016)

Don't mean to take any traffic away from your post but I just started a N.Brichardi post hopefully it will answer any questions or doubts you may have. http://cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=375585 Most Brichardi cull out their own fry when the tank becomes too crowded so expect some fry to disappear from time to time.. BTW your Brichardi look amazing! great colors!!


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## lizardboy (Jun 10, 2015)

I think the ones in the last few pictures are a male and female


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## digitallinh2 (Dec 29, 2012)

I Think they are male and female too. Just a small update, I've been kind of neglecting this tank due to the holidays so it's a little dirty, need to trim the moss once it attaches but...

The 2 that are pictured above who hang out together all the time have been less aggressive towards the other 4. Everyone is tolerated right now, so I imagine they have not bred or anything yet. I definitely have not seen any fry.

They all seem a little more skittish than usual though, especially the most aggressive one -- who hides most of the time except to come out to eat.

Anyhow, hopefully my luck changes. I've been changing water every 1.5 weeks or so, also have a spare rummy nose floating around in there for no reason whatsoever, but he doesn't get attacked.


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## digitallinh2 (Dec 29, 2012)

cleaned my tank a bit lol


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## The Dude315 (May 19, 2015)

Your tank looks fantastic. Do you mind posting a plant list? I see a sword plant on the right and perhaps some crypts on the left side. What is the plant in front of the rocks? Doesn't look like anubias. Java ferns in the stones and wood? It really looks great


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## digitallinh2 (Dec 29, 2012)

Sure, this is what we're looking like right now. All of these are under low light and no co2.

So lots of Abubias and Java Ferns on the rock pile - Barteri, Frazeri (Narrow leafed one), Coffeefolia (ridges) in the front there.

I added some Crypt Balansae on the right, moved the wendtii red to the left.

The bushy one's in front are hygrophila corymbosa compacta --- This variety stays low, I love this plant and very easy to propogate, just cut and stick into the sand.


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