# Bucket Bio Ball Flaw/issue-Filter floss access



## CITADELGRAD87 (Mar 26, 2003)

May know I am setting up my first larger tank, 100G with overflow, and I will be using a 60G acrylic sump with a bio ball filter. I got the 60 acylic tank cheap off CL, and I planned to make a DIY 5g bucket bio ball filter.

Last night I finished the bucket filter, and set it aside after testing the drip tray holes.

Then this AM, it hit me, how can I get at the filter floss inside the bucket without basically tearing this down in a pretty major way for routine maintenance? The bucket lacks the thing that caught my eye in many DIY sump articles "built in drawer to get at the media". I noticed that in several articles, but it never hit me until I was setting up the bucket for use.

Right now, the space under the tank is tight, a standard stand with a 60g under it, then a 5G on top of that, so the drain plumbing is press fit for now, it has flex tubing but its not flexible, Taking this apart every tiem I clean the floss is going to be a bummer. The easier I can plan to make this, the better it will be for everyone, obviously. When that plumbing gets cemented or toehrwise made permanent, the bucket is going to be really tought to take care of.

I think I need to dump the 5g idea in favor of something that will be a lot easier to maintain, unless I am missing something.

How hard would it be to convert the 60G to something that has an acrylic tower with a drawer or other way to easily get at the filter floss? Is there something I am missing about the 5G?

Does anyone have any other solutions/tips/ideas?

Thanks. On the plus side, I am glad I figured this out now instead of 6 minths from now when I have a load of fish counting on me for regular maintenance.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Sorry about the plan. I have no suggestions but I will tell you that I also have half a tablet full of plans for things that were aborted due to flaws in my designs. Just keep in mind that if it were simple, they would have somebody else do it!!!


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## inurocker (May 9, 2011)

For the last foot or so of the drain to your tower try ribbed flex hose. It would help if you posted pics of your plumbing layout. I did glass sumps for years with no slide out trays with no problems changing bonded pads in the top.


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## bearrock (Sep 3, 2011)

To me it sounds like you are taking a much more difficult route than is actually needed. If I understand how you were going to do this the water was going to come from the overflows to the bucket, over the BBs then into the 60gal sump to be pumped back out to the tank.....??????......

A 60gal sump alone is a TON of room and WAY more than what is needed. If it were me and I wanted to confine everything to the one sump I would section about 1/4 of the area to BBs and mechanical filtration and the other 3/4 open to water/pumps/UV/skimmer/heater (you get the idea)

SOOOO The way I have built sumps is to take a piece of acrylic or plastic as a divider then glue or silicone in tiny 1/8 squares about 4-6" off the bottom (mine were cut pieces of acrylic) then add an egg crate that sits on top of the four corner squares (This is what your BBs sit on) now add your BBs and measure out where you want your drip tray to sit. Add four more squares and your drip tray and you are done. Now you have more than enough room for mechanical filtration as well as gear!

I will take a picture of an old one I have and post a picture for you. It will be from the computer again so it will not be winning and photo contest .


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## bearrock (Sep 3, 2011)

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## bearrock (Sep 3, 2011)

OK.....This sump is 3ft long, 3.5ft tall and 18" wide. Holds about 10 gallons of BBs....Enough to sustain (in theory) a 400gal tank. By going tall rather than wide you get more room for preventing overflow mishaps :x .

You should from the picture be able to see the square pegs I use to hold my plates in place. I tried to get a full shot if the sump but taking photos with the computer is not easy.

Also when you add your divider be sure to leave room on the bottom for the water to flow from you filtration to "staging" area.

Regardless of how your specific sump is going to be set up they are all the same concept. By keeping is simple you can easily fix and replace things as needed. Keep it as simple as possible so when they is a problem and there will be....you can easily get to anything and everything without running the risk of crashing your entire tank.


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## CITADELGRAD87 (Mar 26, 2003)

OK, that's EXACTLY what I needed to see.

It is a 60G tank, acrylic. I wanted a 40-50, but I found it on CL and figured I could always use it as a rest/timeout tank, grow out tank, fry tank, whatever.

So if I locally source some acrylic, and make a tower out of the intake end, I will have what I need. I can box off enough room for my bio balls, and put a bottom on it above water level. I wonder why that light didn't go off in my head?

How can I attach the drain hose? I would like to ensure that it stays in place relatviely centered over the drip tray/fliter floss.

The bucket is out, anyone local that wants a 100% completed sump bucket, I have a 5G bucket with holes in the bottom and a nice drip tray, and a lid cut for a 1.5 bulkhead fitting, I am keeping that fitting, but the rest is in OC if anyone wants it. Not too much use for a 5G with a bunch of one inch holes, BTW, the bio balls do not fit through the holes. Drop in some media and it's ready to run.


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## bearrock (Sep 3, 2011)

It would be easier to give the best idea for your drain hose if you could post a picture of how you are going to be running it. BUT from what you have posted previously--- with all the excess room that you are bound to have I would leave 12" from the drip plate to the rim and again keeping it simple just get a clamp and clamp the hose to the side of the sump to insure it does not come out in the middle of the night.

You could also just make a lid for the 1/4 that is going to house your BBs and feed the hose through the lid. Either way I would suggest making the drain hose easily moved and accessible since anytime you choose to add more mechanical filtration this would be where you would do it at.

Again I think that trying to construct a tower for the intake end is going to be more than you need to do. It should be plenty high enough already. Try to post a picture so we can see it and maybe someone will have a better idea......Or I can polish up my idea.....


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## CITADELGRAD87 (Mar 26, 2003)

I will snap some pictures tonight. I did not mean "tower" like projecting up from the top, but more of an internal box using the existing top/sides of the acrylic 60 and some additional acrylic to make the box for the bio balls, and a drawer or other drip tray arrangement for the top.

Here is a paint[/img] version of what I am thinking about:










EDIT In this crude drawing, the black outline is the 60G as it is presently constituted. The red will be the added acrylic to make a box to take the bio balls, drip plate, floss, etc.


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## bearrock (Sep 3, 2011)

EXACTLY!!!! From your picture though you can lower the hight where you have "6-8" of water" in 1/2. I might be completely wrong and I would have to do some research but if I remember right there are both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria. By having a small portion of your BBs covered in water you will actually be increasing the amount of anaerobic bacteria and these are what decrease the nitrates or nitrites (I forget which one) either way you will not hurt anything by having some under water.

This concept is why BBs have lost their popularity in the reef community. They are now replaced with live rock since the deep chambers have lots of room for the anaerobic bacteria.

Plan on your pump being away from the corner and in the middle of the sump. It will decrease the noise 1000 times over!!!!

Now if you want a section of that sump to be for baby fish you will have to add another divider plenty far away from the pump. If it were me I would get a 10gal tank to set up and use as a hospital tank and keep any and all new fish/sick fish out of the sump or tank. 
I used to live in south Florida and I would catch all my own saltwater fish while diving. Anyway I set up a tank at my girlfriends (now wife) apartment and used it as my quarantine tank......HAHAHA.....I scored MAJOR points for "thinking of her"......It was actually for me......I think I ended the conversation with "babe I always think of you" =D> =D> =D> =D>


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## CITADELGRAD87 (Mar 26, 2003)

I have a 10G that's up and running with baby or formerly baby fish right now, they are all about 1.5 inches, growing plump.

Anyway, the plan is to get the 100G up and running, the babies will go in a cycled 50 that I have just a couple Africans in now, they will go in the big tank. Then I was going to break down the 10 and put the 10's filter in the sump to keep it cycled, so if I need a true quarantine tank, I can just fill up the 10 and throw on the filter. Same for any new fish I get, at last I will have some options when all you know what breaks loose, as it often does. If I see a pale guy swimming in a corner, I can net him and put him right in the sump to calm down and heal up, instead of scrambling while he slips away.

The sump area can be used for time outs, either to heal up a victim or cool off an agressor, without and worry about acclimitizing them to a new tank.

So I should plan on extending the bio box floor a bit, to maybe 1-2 inches under normal sump depth? Is there any way to easily figure that out or raise/lower the box floor? I still need to grab a Mag 24, I have a local source I hope, in the next day or 2, then I can set it up and mark my water levels running and with the pump off.


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## Rick_Lindsey (Aug 26, 2002)

If you have a plethora of bioballs then I wouldn't worry about raising the box floor... put it a couple inches off the bottom, and fill 'er up! Having additional submerged media will do no harm.

Bear -- are you sure about bioballs and nitrate reduction? I doubt you'll get anaerobic activity on the surface of a bioball unless it's part of a nitrate reducer that has already removed all the oxygen. The water in the sump is going to be well oxygenated, so I would expect even a submerged bioball to be operating well in the aerobic range.

There are some media that are reported to get anaerobic/nitrate reducing action going in a sump, but generally they are things like cell-pore slabs, very porous media that won't have much water going through them, so the areas towards the middle get an opportunity to go anaerobic.

If it were my sump (which it's not) I wouldn't worry about ensuring bioballs are submerged. Then again, I'd also run the water level higher which is likely to submerge them anyways! lol
Keep in mind that the water level in the sump will drop somewhat during operation. I'm lazy, so I'd want to ensure that evaporation won't force me to top-off the sump every week (what if I'm on vacation?), so I'd lean towards more water rather than less in the sump. Yes this will impact the efficiency of my wet/dry, but I also lean towards lightly stocked tanks.

-Rick (the armchair aquarist)


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## CITADELGRAD87 (Mar 26, 2003)

Ok, I measured it up and here is my proposal.

The internal dimensions of the 60G tank are 14.5 wide, 17.5 high, 47.5 long.

I want to use the extreme left of this tank, so naturally, the box for the balls will be 14.5 inches wide and 17.5 inches on 3 sides, that's just the aquarium sides.

My plan is to locally source some 1/4 acrylic sheet that is cut to 14.5 inches wide, to stretch all the way from front to back, and going about about 15 inches from the top of the tank to 2.5 inches from the bottom. Now the box has 4 sides, but no bottom or top.

For the eggcrate bottom, I will frame it using pieces of 1/4" lexan square rod, I can put that where ever but probably around 10 inches down from the top of the tank, so about with 10 inches of water, I will have about 2 inches of balls submerged in the tank while the pump is on.

Then, for the top, I will use 1/4 acrylic with a bazillion holes in a 14.5 x 14.5 square sheet, about 1.5 inches down from the top of the tank. This will sit on more 1/4 inch rod framing. Does it need to be watertight? The front corner ofthe tank is rounded, so I can radius the corner by sanding it, but I douby it will be water tight unless I silocone it.

The box volume for bio balls will then be 14.5 X 14.5 X 13 inches, assuming I ignore water level, that's 11 gallons liquid or 10.1 gallons dry volume, either way, I'm probably only running 120 gallons or so with this setup, say 90 in the main tank and another 30 in the sump and plumbing. That should be plenty, huh? 300 gallons worth of bio filtration for a 120 gallno tank.

For reference, I ran the numbers, and 10 inches of water gives me 29.8 gallons in the sump, with a TON of room above that for powr failure.

Sound halfway decent?


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## bearrock (Sep 3, 2011)

Rick_lindsey is right even the submerged media would have more than enough O2. Without getting into more than you need this is not an issue either way.

Nothing really needs to be water tight. If for some reason you get a lot of excess water running off the sides of your drip tray then just tap some bigger holes.

You will have more than enough room for power outage worries. What you have to consider (or at least I do) is when the power comes back on. For example after installing my ball valve so I do not get the slurping from my overflow if my power goes out no problem but when my power comes back on now my sump pump pumps faster than what is being let through by the overflow valve and I have to reset the valve before everything is ok again. In this case I just have to make sure that I do not have a ton of excess water in my sump or it will overflow my tank. I marked my critical point on my sump and keep my water level at or below that mark.....No worries then.....If I am gone and the power goes out I come home to a full tank and lots of slurping.

It has been a long time since I priced acrylic but if 1/4 is really expensive there is no reason you could not go with 1/8 or even go to walmart and but a big plastic storage container for 9.99 and cut that to what you need it.

In fact I get all my filter floss from walmart as pillow stuffing.....2.99 for a pillow size bag and it is exactly what I would be getting at my LFS.

I like this new idea 1000 time better than your old one and you seem to understand the concept MUCH better than when we started. Good luck with the build and let me know if you run into any issues.


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## Rick_Lindsey (Aug 26, 2002)

CITADELGRAD87 said:


> My plan is to locally source some 1/4 acrylic sheet that is cut to 14.5 inches wide, to stretch all the way from front to back, and going about about 15 inches from the top of the tank to 2.5 inches from the bottom. Now the box has 4 sides, but no bottom or top.


I would recommend that you leave that baffle at least an inch shy of the top of the sump -- if your bioballs and/or drip tray get clogged such that it can't keep up, you want to be sure the excess water stays IN the sump, and doesn't spill over the sides!

-Rick (the armchair aquarist)


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## CITADELGRAD87 (Mar 26, 2003)

Yes, great idea, with all the stuff flying around, height, width, that escaped me.

I could do a panel that starts 1.5 inches off the bottom, and ends an inch from the top, with the drip tray about 1.5 inches below that lip to contain the water ina 1.5 inch deep chamber, but if it clogs, it will just waterfall into the main sump chanber. Excellent. My floor thanks you.

i just emailed a local plastics place for some prices, if their fab is reasonable, I may not even have to drill any holes. I can just pick up the parts and glue it up.

I picked up a new in box Mag 24 for $130 locally from a guy cleaning out his stock on CL.

I got some other stuff, too, but that was most germane to this thread.


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## CITADELGRAD87 (Mar 26, 2003)

Slight update:

Bought some 1/4 acrylic sheet at home depot tonight, enough for the side panel and the drip tray and there should be plenty left over for a top plate to plug the drain line into, and the lugs to hold up the horizontal panels. I was happy because I thought they only carry plexiglass, but this is acrylic, and a decent variety of sizes, although the 1/4 gets pretty pricey for the larger sheets. I was going to go with approx 1/8, but I could not find a sheet that wasnt badly warped, and the anal retentive in me rejected sloppy materials. SO I upped to 1/4.

I was unable to source any acrylic cement, the HD guys were flabbergasted. Since I am using some blocks to hold up the grating that the balls will sit on, and the drip tray, I want to use cement rather than silicone, I want a good bond. Ace hardware? I am always surprised that they seem to have what I cannot find at a big box.

Later I was surfging and see that some have used PVC primer, does anyone know of a product name/location to buy acrylic solvent/cement?

Also ordered up another 5g of bio balls, which shipped today to round out the 10G of bio filtration. Picked up assorted 1" PVC fittings so I can hook up the new pump.

It is coming together. Tomorrow I will try to start fabbing the bio ball monster, if I can find some cement. I will take pictures.

I want to do a pressure test to see how many jets I can run off 2,400 GPH, well, minus the head height and reduced pipe diameter.


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## CITADELGRAD87 (Mar 26, 2003)

I was going to start a new thread for the new revamped bio monster filter, but I will just update here if anyone is following along so they know where updates will be.

A few nights ago, I bought some 1.4 acrylic sheet at Home Depot for $18 per, and they had no 1/4 rod to use as support for the egg crate and drip tray.

I found a local plastic supply place that is on my way to work. Today, i swung by and they let me poke through their "cut" room, actually just a bunch of cubby holes nicely labeled with what thickness and material they contained.

I grabbed a singel sheet of 1/4 acrylic, 6 feet of 1/4 rod, some acrylic cement, and a cool squeeze bottle applicator with a needle tip, all for $50.00 out the door.

They guy told me to get an 80 TPI table saw blade, for cutting metal, and it should give a nice edge when I cut it, so I will return the HD acrylic and store credit a table saw blade.

Moving along, I will try to fab this up this weekned and will remember to snap some pictures along the way.


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## mightyevil (Oct 23, 2008)

opcorn:


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## CITADELGRAD87 (Mar 26, 2003)

Brief update from the road. Local Home Depot does not carry table saw blades designed for ferrous matls. I briefly considered a skil saw blade, but I never mastered getting a precise line cut, and didn't want to wreck my acrylic.

I stopped by the local ace hardware, they had an 80 tooth blade rated for plywood and plastic, that should do the trick, right?

I was also looking for some vinyl window screen frame, home depot only carries aluminum, even though its temporary, id rather have the vinyl.

More later when I get home.


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## CITADELGRAD87 (Mar 26, 2003)

OK, pretty good progress so far.

Here's the sump tank still configured as I got it










Here's the 100 Glass that I am planning on putting in a wall mount










Here's that "plywood, laminate and plastic blade that I used to make all cuts










Here's the cement I used










One thing that I learned in using a used acrylic tank, this one was pretty bowed, making joining the bulkhead separating the bio filter from the rest of the sump difficult. I had to use weights, and I jumped the gun adn flipped it to do the other side too soon. MY advice is to take it very slowly, measure three times, cut once, have some extra material on hand so nothing is a do or die situation.

Here's my solution to the bowed wall issue:










I tried to level it up with a speed square and a level, I got it pretty good, but was limited in what I could reach. If I need to do another one, I would also use the tak bottom to make sure it's square. I'm glad this is a sump, not the cleanest seams because of the popped initial bond, but it seems really strong.

Here's the drip tray, I drilled holes at 1 inch on center, took a while, but it came out pretty good










A question, due to the strong water flow, the water seems to shoot outward and gather at the outside edges, it drips as designed for the outside 4" or so, not too much is going down the center section, is bigger holes in the center the solution, or some kind of baffle? I need to play with that.

Here's the setup before the balls got added









Half full of balls ( I got 5G thinking it would fill a 5G bucket, so I have another 5 g on the way, and that is not going to fill this.










I made a bracket deal for the top to hold the plate that the drain hose goes on


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## CITADELGRAD87 (Mar 26, 2003)

OOps, I didn't mean to post that. Almost done now.

I forgot to mention, due to the seemingly small amount of balls, I raised the floor of the bio tank up to 6.5 inches above the tank floor, I left the lugs so if I want to go super size with 20G balls, I can just move it back down.

Here are a couple in action shots, first the flow in, I tried to show the way the water WAS NOT dripping in the center section. The second shows how well it drips down the edges.



















Now I am going back out to play with the UGJ configuration. [/img]


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## The King Crabb (Jun 28, 2011)

Looking good! To use that weld on stuff, is it just like using PVC glue? Just paint it on, hold in place for a little bit, and then you're good to go?


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## CITADELGRAD87 (Mar 26, 2003)

It like really thin super glue. It works by melting the two pieses into one. There is no viscosity until the two parts start to bond. The stuff is just like water. It comes out of that needle and runs along the joint between the two parts, and after about 2 minutes it will stick on its own, but you can pop it off for an hour or so.


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## CITADELGRAD87 (Mar 26, 2003)

Wow, I tried to post this last night, but my laptop is acting up. I thought I had it fixed, but I got this all typed up 3 times and it crashed each time.

I put a filter pad on the drip tray and now it works perfectly, here's a shot of the neat, gentle spray of water:










It's just a 14 inch square cut from a roll of cheap filter floss I bought online. It is pretty easy to do even with the drain tube in place. I also need to grab a 1.5 inch male threaded nipple to rubber band on a micron filter sock to polish the water.

I'm really happy with it, although I did put the pump too close to the edge of the tank and it's pretty loud. I was warned to center the pump. The water noise is almost non existent, but the pump hum needs to be addressed. I tried for the clean look of having the return line go through a pre drilled hole, but I need to move the pump.

Right now it is on a one week shakedown cruise. As of this AM, no leaks at all. Tomorrow or so I will add in the heater and heater control I picked up, and the little time and temp.

After my other posts, I fabricated an 8 outlet jet system, ending in squeezed nozzles. I tried to establish a counterclockwise flow so that the debris will encounter the largest edge of the overflow box. The jets all seem to be working, I am just not sure how to "test" how well the pattern covers the tank.

I was kind of surprised that I did not need to use a diverter to back the pressure off, the jets do no appear too powerful. I still will use a ball valve to divert the flow from the overflow to the nearby drain. During water changes, that Mag 24 will empty the sump in a matter of moments, then I can fill the sump back up using the hose in the equipment room, treat and heat the water, then open the ball valve, and get back to enjoying my fishies.

I learned that a 60G sump is too big for a shake and bake stand, my new stand will have a removable center leg, if there is ever a problem, I can just pull the leg off to remove the sump, although I will probably have to drain the tank to do so?

I am still waiting on a delivery of 5 more gallons of Bio Balls, but over the weekend I modified a beater 60 gallon tank into a large sump with the theoretical bio capacity of 300 gallons, a large refugium area large enough for a time out tank, and learned about cutting and binding Acrylic. Now I can plant the fuge, or any number of options.

Not too bad for a weekend's work.

If it passes the test this week, I need to drain it, open up the equipment room wall for a doorway, build up the stand to match where it will meet the wall, get that stupid bulky tank in place, hook it all up again, fill it up (again) and run it (again) to make sure it still isn't leaking...yada yada... fishless cycle, build the framing around the tank so it is presentable, and get some fish.


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## The King Crabb (Jun 28, 2011)

CITADELGRAD87 said:


> The jets all seem to be working, I am just not sure how to "test" how well the pattern covers the tank.


Put a few drops of Methylene Blue into the tank and see how long it takes the water to turn blue, that's how most people test flow and efficiency. You can drain the tank and refill it to get clear water or just do water changes over the next few days, it won't hurt the fish if you leave it blue though!


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## bearrock (Sep 3, 2011)

The methylene blue is a good idea. I had not thought of that.


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## CITADELGRAD87 (Mar 26, 2003)

The King Crabb said:


> CITADELGRAD87 said:
> 
> 
> > The jets all seem to be working, I am just not sure how to "test" how well the pattern covers the tank.
> ...


I would like to try this, is Methylene Blue something I could get at an LFS or elsewhere?

Thanks


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## The King Crabb (Jun 28, 2011)

It's a fairly common medication treatment, you can get it online for about $4-$5 but I don't know about a LFS; I've never seen it there!


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