# cichlids just wont eat



## hades69 (Dec 4, 2011)

I have a 56 gal column. 16 fish total, a few are just assorted. But I have

1 Snow White, 
1 Yellow Lab, 
1 Electric Blue,
1 Bumble Bee,

The rest are assorted cichlids (all African), 1 pleco, 1 pictus cat and 1 Bala

Issue is they just don't seem to eat. When I use pellets, they just bounce of there heads...and sink to the bottom. Flakes just float for ever. Bloodworms......they eat a couple, but most don't touch them.

This all started about a week ago, they would eat pretty good prior. I have slowly brought the stock up a couple to a few a week since set up in November.

Note: I added the Snow White and a Blue Crawfish at the same time about 2 weeks ago...the crawfish molted and I believe the SW killed it that night. Not sure if that funked everyone else. The SW is now the only one that eats a little.

All the colors are good, no signs of sickness, water test great.......any thoughts?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

What are your specific test results for pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?

What are the dimensions of the tank? If it is a column, and basically round, what is the longest diameter?

You may have stocking issues with that tank dimension which led to stress which led to illness. So we can treat the illness but the root cause will eventually have to be solved. Are all the fish male?

Any thready white feces? Observe your fish for several hours so that you can see either thick, food-colored feces or thready, white.


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## hades69 (Dec 4, 2011)

It is a Marine land 18X30X24 column.

I just tested again and both Nitrate (about 15) and Nitrite (3.0) have come up since the last test.

I did add air to the tank (bubble wall), about 3 days ago.

I haven't seen any odd waste, I have been watching them carefully, The tank is in my office so see them steadily.i am no where near the 1"per/gal I was told when I purchased and just confirmed with the LFS that stocking was good.

I have no idea if they are all male.....don't know how to tell.


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## hades69 (Dec 4, 2011)

Just did about a 20% water change and added some "prime" and " stress zyme". Goin to let it cycle a few times and re-test.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

One inch per gallon only works when you are talking about skinny one-inch fish like neon tetras. The usual illustration is to envision a 10" oscar in a 10G tank. 

Moving along...gallons are not very important to African Rift Lake fish, they want to claim a territory on the substrate. About the smallest territory for a male mbuna is one square foot...just for him. Some Africans want three square feet per male, or more.

The dwarf mbuna (mature at 4" or less) or your yellow lab can work in a 36" long tank. The more typical mbuna that mature at 6" like your snow white are better in a 48" tank. And large or aggressive Africans like your bumblebee and your electric blue may have problems in anything less than a 48" x 18" tank.

3ppm nitrite is highly toxic...that is likely your problem. My fish start gasping when I have 0.5ppm of nitrite. I'd change 75% of the water to get the nitrite under 1ppm. How was your tank cycled?


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## hades69 (Dec 4, 2011)

I have a marine land 350 canister 3 stage filter. Rated for 100 gal.

I had the water tested at the LFS. They told me to do daily treatments of prime each day this week and re-test daily. Then do another change at the end of the week. I brought them a 2 minute vid of the tank for them to review.

I do intend on starting another tank as they grow in the future. The biggest fish in the tank is only about 2.5 inches.

The only 2 fish that have attempted to claim any territory are the SW and another assort that looks to be mbuna.

I still do not really know how to tell the male from female.

I really appreciate the help.

And if could let me know how to attach files...I have pics.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

Why wait till the end of the week? You'll be adding prime with a water change anyways, and the PWC will help get rid of the nitrites; I say start with a 50% asap, and do another 50% after a couple days, or as needed.


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## hades69 (Dec 4, 2011)

I agree, I think I'll do another change tomorrow morning.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yes. And grab a test kit from the LFS next time you go so you can do your own daily tests. That way as soon as nitrite get's over 0.5 you can do a water change.


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## hades69 (Dec 4, 2011)

I actually did a 50% change last night. Tested it this morning and the nitrite were down a bit, but the fish were gasping at the top for the first time. I am going to do another change now. i do have my own test kit so I will test daily.

I don't mind spend money to make things right. Are there other mechanical devises that can be bought to help regulate this issue?

They were ready to eat this morning tho, so good sign.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

If they are not eating well (keeping food down) and they are gasping anywhere in the tank (top or bottom), then I would guess you have a case of bloat. Most likely caused by the water conditions, or feeding too much which in turn caused the water conditions.

Bloat does not always present with bloating, or any white stringy poop. These are in fact advanced symptoms, and normally mean you will lose the fish 50% of the time if they get that far. Fish with bloat can even attempt to eat in the early stages, meaning just because they are trying to feed does not mean they are not sick.

Either way, I would keep a good eye on behaviour over the next few days and keep the water quality 100%. If you notice any fish not feeding or gasping or hiding for long periods or rapid breathing, something could be wrong thats going to need medication.


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## hades69 (Dec 4, 2011)

I have been given 100 different types of advise on feeding....everything from 3 times a day to 3 times a week. This is also first time anyone has said anything about bloat......I'm sure it is a guessing game to say the least. I have tried to feed them morning and evening....and started to limit what I gave them when they would eat it all. This morning they were chomping at the bit to eat...my assumption is because between 2 water changes and adding salt yesterday, they are feeling a bit more frisky. I am going to do another change today, re-prime and add some more salt later.....see where it goes from there..

And what medication are we referring to?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I think maybe Nodalizer missed the fact that your Nitrite was 3.0ppm.

Once your tank is cycled (Nitrite=0) then you have a situation that may lead to bloat (stress due to small tank, large fish) and it may be in your future. But right now the nitrite is your critical problem.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

> This is also first time anyone has said anything about bloat


Not feeding and bloat normally go hand in hand. If your tank GH is fairly high and you have been stopping feeding when you nitice they go off there food, then chances are they have been comming down with a mild bloat from time to time and the magnesium in your tank along with your stopping feeding is suffient to bring the fish back to good health.

Not feeding doesn't always mean bloat by no means, but its one of the most common problems with cichlids. When you mentioned gasping and hanging around the tank coupled with them not eating .. then that kinda makes it sound more like a bloat case. We can't always hit a nail on the head without sitting in front of the tank to see all the symptoms. But as more information comes our way we can come to a more exact cause.



> I have been given 100 different types of advise on feeding


I would expect you would, because there is no one way to feed your fish. There is no hard and fast rule on feeding, but some guidelines:

1) Feed as much as they will consume in a "short" time (i do 30 seconds as I feed twice a day and this keeps them happy)
2) If they are not looking to be fed, then something is up .. likely overfeeding. So don't feed them, and correct your feeding habits so they are egar when you feed them next time.
3) They do not need a lot of variety, and often best to feed a good quality pelet. I feed my mbuna peas from time to time.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Yes I did miss the nitrite.. I thought he was said nitrate. Ah well some info on bloat above for ya anyway lol

I would say whenever they gasp add some more prime. And make sure you have plenty of airation (surface movement).

My advice for any tank that *has fish in it* and nitrite or ammonia readings is:

1) Get yourself something similar to seachem stability. I have used this product, and will recommend it, thou I am sure there are others out there similar.

2) Do what it says on the bottle, add it each day, and add it in the morning as the fish are more rested at night, so survive better.

My reason for this is althou prime is an awesome product, it just doesn't seem to have logevity at controlling dangerous situations like this. It will remove the nitrite or make it safe, but the fish seem to get stressed not long after it (maybe an hour or two). When I had a problem with fish I couldn't move, I used stabilty and it kept the fish alive and looking good and eating still. Add prime when you notice readings of nitrite and the like get higher (1 or higher) still of course.

Thing to remember is the fish have certain inbuilt things that will not change:

1) survive 2) eat 3) breed 4) defend in some cases

The order may change a bit sometimes, but always at the top of the list is to survive. So if the fish is in a bad way and feels hanging around the tank doing not much is helping it survive, then everything else on the list is forgotten until he is happy that he is surviving again. So chances are they will not eat until the nitrite is gone, they just care more about surviving then eating right now.


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## hades69 (Dec 4, 2011)

well, I did another change, about 60%, re-primed and added stress zyme and more salt...

Nitrites looked to be coming down and by the evening the fish were much more active, and ready to eat like pigs.

Woke up this morning and Nitrites are high again(about 5.0) and Nitrate have climbed as well (about 15-20). But the fish look and act fine....eating well and are very active.

do you think it is time to clean the media? It has only been 6 weeks and the filter is rated for twice the size of the tank. I will do another change after work, but that will 4 straight days? I don't know if they sell seachem products at the LFS, but I'll check today.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

No, Stess zyme I believe is the same sorta stuff. That should do.

I know the water changes hit the back pocket with the cost of the addatives, but its really the only way to get through this without loosing fish.

Sounds like its going ok so far. Just keep it up.


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## hades69 (Dec 4, 2011)

The money is really not an issue, I just want to make sure I wont need to change water every day, that things will level off.

Is there any issue using prime and stress zyme together. I did the heavier does of prime this morning and don't want use the stress zyme and hurt the situation more.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

I am not really clued up on stress zyme. If its like stability it will not help with the cycle, but will keep the nitrite and ammonia undercontrol while you cycle continues.

The main issue with too much prime is over stimulating the stress coat I believe, which is minor concern compared to the nitrite problem.


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## hades69 (Dec 4, 2011)

In process of another change...Nitrites were higher than ever when I got home....Nitrates up too. Not sure what to do, 5 straight days of water changes.

All the fish are eating and happy tho.....that's what weird.....


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

I wouldn;t worry about testing nitrates while nitrites are still present. The reading will always be higher then it really is.

And yeah the water changes is just part of the parcel sorry. When it all settles down you can look forward to no more daily changes.


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## hades69 (Dec 4, 2011)

My concern was that readings were twice as high after yesterdays change when I woke up...is that common? Do you think it is time to clean the media? I was told by the LFS to allow the the tank to cycle and it could take a couple of months.....then rinse the media in the water from the tank.

I have an instructional dvd on the canister filter.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

When cleaning the media, remember only the sponges need a good clean, the rest of the media just give a quick dip and shake under water then back in the baskets. And yeah using declorinated water for sure.

I would give cleaning the media a go. I would also cut feeding back to once every 3 days until you resolve the nitrite problem.


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## hades69 (Dec 4, 2011)

good deal, I will do both and let you know how it goes. I just got done with another 75% water change, prime and stress zyme.

Another note, the higher nitrite reading do correspond with me adding salt. does the addition of salt in the water cause the nitrites to break down slower?

It is the only other thing I can think of that took place around the time of the high readings.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would not clean the media, you are trying to get the bacteria to grow there. Keep changing the water, even daily if you have to. Maybe you are at the peak of your nitrite spike. If that is true, things will get better from here on in.


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## hades69 (Dec 4, 2011)

K, did another 75% today. Bought API stress coat for the tap water treatment, and Nutrafin "cycle" for the bio stim. Result were 50% reduction of nitrites right away, so good news. Not gonna feed tonight at all. Looks like I can retreat with the "cycle" tomorrow. Also bought new carbon filter bags tc replace them when all levels out.

Do you think I should change them now? I am 6 weeks in, just about due to rinse the pads anyway.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

I really wouldn't be using carbon full time. Its used for specific cases, not as a permanent filter media. So next time you remove them I wouldn't replace them, you have a decent amount of bio media in there like ceramic or something like that?

The Stress Coat I would stay away from, prime will stimulate the stress coat anyway, and adding a stress coat can cause more problems then good. You are better to stimulate a natural slime coat then apply synthetic slime coats.

The Nutrafin "cycle" is a perfect thing to use, just remember to add prime to the tank about 30 minutes before adding the Nutrafin "cycle". The chlorine will make this product less effectvie, so give it 30 minutes to be sure no chlorine exists. Nutrafin "cycle" is exactly what I was talking about, it works just like stability, it will not speed up your cycle and benefitial bacteria growth, but it will keep the ammonia and nitrite under control while you wait for the filter to mature. I was a little worried about stress zyme, as I don't believe its the same sort of thing. stress zyme is more just a water conditioner.

You have been buying a lot of products by the looks, don't go putting everything in ya tank in an effort to save your fish, it can do more harm then good. Take the below as all you need to do:

1) Add prime with water changes for declorinator, stress coat stimulation and toxic neutralizer.

2) Add Nutrafin "cycle" 30 minutes after the prime, this will keep your fish alive while cycling.

3) Nothing else is needed. Those 2 you have bought are perfect for what you need.

4) Put that API stress coat in a dark closet and forget about it IMO. 

.


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## hades69 (Dec 4, 2011)

lol, the kid at the LFS told me not to buy more prime, but to use stress coat instead....I have gotten the most contradicting advise at the stores that I get here. Needless to say, I'll stick to advise I get here.

I also added a bit of salt, just to keep them happy while I go thru this...is that ok? I don't know , I have heard that salt, although good for the fish, will slow the bio filter from forming?


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Yeah look salt is not bad at all and used for healing, but its really not going to help any injurys you get from this. Most cycling injurys that we are worried about are internal. But if you keep that Nutrafin "cycle" up, then those should be minimised.

I can't say I have ever heard a LFS say don't buy prime, its the best water conditioner out there i have found so far. When something esle comes along that can do what it can do in the same price per galon of treatment, then I will use that, but until then I will use prime. Maybe he feels that a stress coat will help you, and there might even be some on here that say the same. My personal Opinion is to stay away from synthetic slime coats. Always research anything that claims to help with stress and make sure it doesn't use a synthetic to create a slime coat. All fish will create a slime coat, sometimes they need something to stimulate that coat. The exception to this rule would be if something is eating there slime coat like a desease or the like, in this case you might try one of these synthetics.


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## hades69 (Dec 4, 2011)

so, stay away from salt?


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Not saying stay away from it, but just not going to help right now. If once your tank is cycled and some fish are acting funny, you could maybe some treatment of a medication for curing any internal infections that might have happened early on when you didn't have anything in there to help, but just get the cycled finished first. But I do not forsee any problems with what you doing currently.

Understand thou fishless cycling is always the best method. I know you didn't plan to cycle with fish in the tank, but just making sure.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Don't rinse the pads or media until the cycle is complete. Hopefully you are feeding lightly and nothing is clogged.

Your bacteria are trying to grow there, you don't want to dislodge them while they are still babies.


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## hades69 (Dec 4, 2011)

I had an issue with over feeding, most of the un-eaten food would just lay on the bottom. I vacuumed most of that up. I have not fed them in 1.5 days.

test was still a little high this morning, but it's only been 12hrs since the change and I added the cycle. I guess I should wait one more day to feed them.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

A little high, like 0.5ppm?


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## hades69 (Dec 4, 2011)

It was at 1.0 this morning, high, but still coming down from where they were. I believe the cycle and reduced feeding is working, I don't know which is working more, but it's getting better.


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## hades69 (Dec 4, 2011)

ugh......climbed a little bit today. Much better than the last few days......

Gonna go with another change, 7 days in a row......F...!

fish seem very happy tho, they are starving! They'll probably piranha my ass the second my hand touches the water.

I feel like I am making head way .....


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

1ppm is a lot high, but you are right, much better than before.

Keep doing water changes, even several daily if you have to to keep it under 1ppm.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

I wouldn't be too worried about levels while you are putting that cycle in the tank myself. I would cut down the water changes now your below 5pmm. If they climb above 3 again then change water. Long as the cycle goes in each day you will be ok.


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## hades69 (Dec 4, 2011)

This is contradicting advice guys?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Nitrite is exremely toxic to fish and water changes do not slow down your cycle. I am more worried about it than Nodalizer, that's all. :lol:


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Oh no, don't get me wrong. nitrite will hammer your fish.

But the product your using makes things safer for your fish. continue with the water changes, but the product your using is kind of mute then if you know what i mean. But to each his own.

Cyclign with fish in the tank is never a safe thing to do, but I have had recent experience with the fish in tank cycle due to a filter not being adequate for the tank. I used stability for my cycle, but the nurifin product has a lot better reviews.


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## hades69 (Dec 4, 2011)

Well, I only know what I have read, and luckily, they show very little signs of illness or stress now. They did before the daily WC. The Nitrites tested around .5 this morning. I have been doing WC each night about 6PM, adding either prime or stress coat (I'm out of prime) and about 30 mins later 50ml of "cycle", and things have improved greatly.

I believe they are low enough to try a dose of "cycle" and no WC today. If the climb at all, I'll go back to the WC's.


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