# Mbuna M/F ratios



## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I've learned so much in the short time since I found this forum. It's been very helpful, and has consumed much of my time. There are countless posts asking about stocking, and m/f ratios. In almost every instance, it is suggested that 1 male to 'x' amount of females(depending on species). It makes sense, sinch mbuna can be so aggressive to one another. This also ties into overstocking, to spread out that aggression. That being said, I spoke(at length) with a highly recommended and reputable source that disagrees with these ratios. This source is also a sponser on this site. They suggested higher male counts. Example: 3:3, 3:4, etc.

It was explained to me that once a male mbuna reaches sexual maturity, it has 2 things on it's mind- spawning and fighting(defend territory/mating opportunities). With additional males, this 'fighting' aggression can be spread out through a few fish better equipped than a female. The smaller females, when going 1m/x amount of girls, may not be able to handle a larger fishes aggression. You would also get the added bonus of extra color in your tank with more males. Keep in mind, this is strictly mbuna.

My question is, why when suggesting ratios for mixed mbuna setups that is always 1 male, but in a species tank it's 2-4 males(depending on species and tank dimensions)?

Curious to see what people on this forum think. I omitted this source per site rules. I did not interpret this conversation incorrectly.

Thanks, in advance.


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## BNoel21 (May 15, 2011)

I think I know exactly who you are referring to and had the same conversation with him and tried his method to a degree and with some mbuna it has worked better then others.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

BNoel- when you say "better then others" are you referring to different species of cichlids, or other ratio suggestions?


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## Dawg2012 (May 10, 2012)

Interesting logic. I'd like to hear the opinions as well. opcorn:


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Dawg2012 said:


> Interesting logic. I'd like to hear the opinions as well. opcorn:


Yea, I've been waiting as well. opcorn: Think I've had 4 bags of popcorn! Maybe I should get back to work...


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## rp-photo (Sep 22, 2011)

here is the IDEA ....

when you're doing a species specific tank.... they are all the same species and you will be buying X amount of the species unsexed... they will grow up together and form a community ... and do their own population control and so forth as they do in the wild...

however:

when your doing Multiple species tanks.. u need a 1 male to every 4-5 females as multiple males of the same species will either A: fight until one kills the other, asserts its dominance, or they both die of exhaustion from fighting due to the lack of females; B: if the Male does in fact pair off with a female of his species once she is holding, then the other females offer as a some what distraction for that male while the female holding...

so the only time the M:F ratio can be some what ignored, is in a Species Only tank ... and you'd have to raise them as Juveniles for the formula to work ...

EDIT: also the only time u can ignore the Male Ratio, is if your doing something like an All Male HAP/Peacock Tank ... at that point throwing a female in it would be like adding gas to a fire..

Hope this helps...


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

> when your doing Multiple species tanks.. u need a 1 male to every 4-5 females as multiple males of the same species will either A: fight until one kills the other, asserts its dominance, or they both die of exhaustion from fighting due to the lack of females; B: if the Male does in fact pair off with a female of his species once she is holding, then the other females offer as a some what distraction for that male while the female holding...


Yes, and that makes sense. My question(s) is, I guess, why would someone with a vast experience with cichlids disagree with this, and suggest more even ratios? What if your mixed mbuna were raised together from 1-1.5"? What's the difference between that and a species only - weeding out males as the tank matures?

I know there is no perfect chemistry to ratios or what species work with what, and individual fish can have very unique and uncharacteristic behavior. Everything is based on trial and error, past experiences, scientific and geographical facts, etc. Does the 1M/several female stocking work? Sure it does. Otherwise it wouldn't be suggested on every mbuna mix post. So what's with this completely different viewpoint?

Anyone out there gone with a more even ratio route? Results/Failures/Successes?


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## rjfinnan (Apr 10, 2012)

I spoke with the same vendor earlier today and he actually brought up the same topic to me. From what I understood, the M:F ratio was of less importance for larger groups (8+) even in a multi species tank. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule based on species, individual fish, lopsided M:F ratios (more males than females), etc. I'm getting ready to stock the following five species and was told it should not be a problem.

8-yellow labs
8-msobo
8-hara
15-demasoni
4-acei


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## rp-photo (Sep 22, 2011)

rjfinnan said:


> I spoke with the same vendor earlier today and he actually brought up the same topic to me. From what I understood, the M:F ratio was of less importance for larger groups (8+) even in a multi species tank. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule based on species, individual fish, lopsided M:F ratios (more males than females), etc. I'm getting ready to stock the following five species and was told it should not be a problem.
> 
> 8-yellow labs
> 8-msobo
> ...


--- just a heads up u might have an issue w/ the Demasoni and Yellow Lab mix with aggression depending on your size of tank...if your looking for the Blue/Yellow combo look into Saulosi the males get a nice blue and the female have a solid yellow


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

I have a lot of experience breeding Malawi cichlids. Here is what I've found.

The more overstocked your aquarium is, and the larger that it is.... the less important the high female to male ratio. But in a smaller tank, with less heavy stocking, the more important that it is. Your aquarium decor also plays an important factor. If the aquarium is almost choking with rocks in a giant rock pile, the female to male ratio isn't that important. But if it is set up as a"proper" aquarium with a separate rock pile (with open space between each of them) for each male, then the sex ratio is very important. And YES...which species you keep does matter. For example, male Labeotropheus Trewevasae are extremely intolerant of each other....male Labidochromis Caeruleus are much more tolerant. And if you add other species as a distraction, the sex ratio becomes less important too.

But I do agree that the larger the group of any one particular species, the less important the ratio...just because the males will have to spread their aggression out. Think of this over-extreme example: If you have 100 Labeotropheus in a tank with a 50/50 male to female ratio, there will be less chance of one male singling another out for elimination, as opposed to a smaller tank with 6 fish and a 50/50 sex ratio....where one male could easily dominate the other two.

That's been my experience anyway.


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## Dawg2012 (May 10, 2012)

That makes sense... and all the more reason for a large tank!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Given that many of us do not have tanks that can house 100 labeotropheus, I disagree with the 3:3 ratio idea among mbuna. Cyps maybe. In several tanks, when I have had too many males, either the sub-doms color down or even worse they are beat up until I remove them or they sicken with bloat and infect the tank.

Demasoni are the ones among mine that have bloat issues more than the others. But I've also had issues with multiple males among socolofi, estherae, caeruleus, and hara.

When growing out juveniles, I never remove a male unless his tank mates force the issue and I always stop removing males when the tank is peaceful. I let the fish rule. :thumb:


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Thanks for all the responses everyone. Interesting stuff.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Quote "Given that many of us do not have tanks that can house 100 labeotropheus, I disagree with the 3:3 ratio idea among mbuna. Cyps maybe. In several tanks, when I have had too many males, either the sub-doms color down or even worse they are beat up until I remove them or they sicken with bloat and infect the tank."

--Don't get me wrong...in my experience, the higher the number of females to males, the better. Always, except in an all male tank. But you CAN be a bit flexible with the ratio, depending on the other factors that I mentioned. The Labeotropheus example was just that...an intentionally over-extreme example to illustrate my point. But if you take a more mellow species and put them in a larger tank absolutely choking with rocks, you can definitely raise the percentage of males to females.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

oldcatfish said:


> the higher the number of females to males, the better. Always, except in an all male tank. .





oldcatfish said:


> if you take a more mellow species and put them in a larger tank absolutely choking with rocks, you can definitely raise the percentage of males to females.


I agree. I would not make a 3:3 mbuna-stocking recommendation though. As you say, the more females the better.


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