# Guianacara sp???



## Dutch Dude

G'day,

Does anyone know what specie of Guianacara this is? They are sold to me as sp. Rio Caroni but I'm not convinced of that. In the middle you can see the large head hump with the dominant male. Unfortunately the colors of the picture aren't great but from a distance the hump looks orange. When you see up close it has a yellow color with small red dots like sp. red cheek. Is this indeed sp. Rio Caroni or possibly a different specie? Thanks for the input.

Ruurd


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## ewok

whatever it is, it is awesome. i really want to get some. :thumb:

how is the aggression like? any specific kind of care?


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## Terra Incognita

Guianacara sp. "Orinoco" would be my best bet.


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## Dutch Dude

Thanks for the replies!

Ewok,...in the real their colors are more vibrant. They have some iridescent parts on their scales and they have stunning blue eyes! I keep mine in a small group of 4 and recently added 2 more so the number is 6. Both males quarrel over territory but this is so peaceful it realy makes you laugh! When it comes to it they can handle themselve well and when a pleco enters his cave he will be kicked out of it! When the pleco's are around they ignore them. I introduced some small tetras (head and tail light tetra) and they don't pay attention to them. Aggression is low and they are great fish! They are social fish and when it comes to danger and feeding time they stick together. For the rest of the time they flirt around and males quarrel and provoke each other by entering each others territory. They won't hurt each other and the only thing happens is a short spurt, flashing and rarely a lip lock. They have small mouths so tetras should be relatively save. I don't know yet what their behaviour will be during spawning but I'm pretty convinced they wont turn out in killers. The size is 5 to 6 1/2 inch. They are easy to take care of and feed on sinking pellets, algae wafers, shrimp pellets, frozen and live foods. They like temps around the 78 and can handle a wide range on water parameters. They do dig pits and definitely need caves!

Terra,.....it is realy hard to determine the exact specie and they look a lot like each other. I will google a bit on the Orinoco but so far I didn't found a fish that matcher. They look the most like Owroewefi but without the red cheeks and the males do have large humps. Thanks for the input!


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## Dutch Dude

Oooh eeh by the way,...the first pic on the profiles section of the Guianacara Owroewefi is very bad and of a stressed fish so this isn't representative Pic 3 is the best.


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## ewok

where are you guys getting your information about the guinacara family?
there seems to be very limited information. 
i'm starting to really like south americans again. especially after i got my hoplarchus


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## Terra Incognita

Dutch Dude said:


> Terra,.....it is realy hard to determine the exact specie and they look a lot like each other. I will google a bit on the Orinoco but so far I didn't found a fish that matcher. They look the most like Owroewefi but without the red cheeks and the males do have large humps. Thanks for the input!


This is the only picture I could find, right here on our very site. 









Labeled as a female, and looks like some of yours.


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## Dutch Dude

Ewok,....the book of Thomas Weidner (South American Eartheaters published by Cichlid Press) contains some very useful info abouth care, natural habitat and behaviour. Except for that I talked to a few people and Howler33 was one of them. I found some German articles by google and read bits and pieces. There is indeed a lack on info on these wonderful fish and just like the Bolivians a lot of people pas by in the lfs. So some basic info.

temp 25C to 31C (77 to 88)
PH 5.5 to 8
GH up to 20

They are cave breeding fish and don't like strong lighting. They love shaded aria's and take shelter underneath or behind driftwood. Minimum tank for a couple should be 30 gallon and footprint of 32 inch x 16 inch. I read that a couple in a small tank can be more territorial and in some cases aggressive during spawning. In a group they should be les territorial and no big issues. The minimum tank for 4 of them should be 55 gallon and a footprint of 40 inch x 20 inch.

Gender is hard to determine. males become a bit larger and have a small hump with makes the head more blunt. That's all the visible deference! So with youngsters you realy can't see the difference and selecting on size is the best bet.

Terra,....like Ewok already mentioned there is not mutch info on the Internet abouth the Guianacara so I was not surprised this was the only pic. I don't know if this is a separate specie or a color variety and found in the Orinoco river system. The base color of my fish is more towards sand color and yellow unlike the beige from the "Orinoco". There is an undescribed specie Guianacara Copperhead and no pics available. This is also a possibility. For now they look a lot like Owroewefi but without the red cheek and a larger hump. But thanks for the input and off course there is a possibility they turn out to be "Orinoco".


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## DeadFishFloating

Nice cichlids and set up Ruurd. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

How about some full tank shots with the whole school.


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## Dutch Dude

Thanks Peter for the nice words! Here is a full tank shot. In the real it is low lighted (2 times 38 Watt tube lights) but in this pic the colors of the fish are just like they are in the real. Notice the dominant male on the left. In this pic 2 adults are visible and 2 youngsters I bought recently. The Echinodorus don't look that good right now but they need to recover after some heavy damage from the Bahia Red (I sold the Bahia's 2 weeks ago).


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## Howler33

Here is a pic of some of my Guianacara that were also sold to me as Rio Caroni.


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## Dutch Dude

Hee Howler,...thanks for the pics and post! As you can see there is some difference in the shape of the head and the colors. The base color of yours is more towards pink wile mine are more towards yellow. Except for that they donÂ´t have the large humps and donÂ´t show the `orange`to ocker coloration on the head.

I put this question also on an other board and I was pointed at an article abouth Guianacara Stergiosi. This is a new genus and the Orange cheeks and Coroni turn out to be the same specie. The description and pics match your fish. If I reed the description of the fish they fit in for a large part such as the lateral spot. But,...coloration and hump donÂ´t fit.

What do you think :?:


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## dogofwar

From what I understand, Guianacara are pretty poorly described and hard to ID just by pictures. I have a group as well and I just call them. G. sp...


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## Dutch Dude

Dogofwar,...your right the genus is a bit of a mess and the fish are indeed poorly described. It is time to do something abouth it becouse these fish are wonderful mid sized cichlids and realy fun to wach! I talked to some real experts and was pointed at a German article. Most likely they are G. Stergiosi formerly known as sp Red Cheek AND sp Rio Caroni. They turn out to be the same specie. The best way to determine specie is by the lateral spot. Mine do fit in that profile but have some different colorations. I realy like to see a pic of your fish and I would like it if you put it on here to!


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## Geejo4

Wow, those are really nice fish Dutch Dude and Howler!!!

Now I really want some!

I know you said a 30 gallon with a foot print of 32 inch x 16 inch. But could I get away with a couple in a 29 gallon? Maybe there is a smaller species? If not I might just need to get a bigger tank. :lol:  I really want some now.

Thanks!


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## Howler33

I have never tried to keep mine in anything smaller than a 110 gallon tank but, I have noticed they are more aggressive in small groups. I have a group of 8 and they are very peaceful, but put one or two in a community tank and they become bullies.

Ruurd,

I found your post with the link to the German article but, unfortunately I can't read German. I don't have any experience with this species outside of the group I have so I am afriad I can't add anymore to what the experts on the other forum already said. With the social behavior of this species I can easliy see how they may have cross bred in the intertwined river systems to add confusion to classifying them. They are an awesome fish and all the variants I have seen are very beautiful.

Joe


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## ewok

hehe love this thread 
thanks for the links and tips, dutch dude

i need to get my hands on some of these...

i LOVE this picture...

Guianacara cf. owroewefi


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## Dutch Dude

Thanks Geejo4 for the nice words! About tank size,.....one gallon difference is no problem but the footprint is very important! A breeding couple could do in a tank that size but Guianacara feel best in groups just like Geophagus. If you keep them as a couple they most likely show some more temperament and possibly even aggression. In a group (shoul) they they are mildly and have the same temperament of most Geophagus and suitable for some other company like corydoras, loricarids and tetras. So if you can get a hold on a larger tank I would realy recommend it and keep in mind that footprint is very important!


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## Dutch Dude

Joe (Howler),....I kept mine temporarely in a 50 gallon tank with some loricarids for abouth 2 months without any troubles. No aggression issues and they did just fine! This was a tank with a footprint of 40 inch x 16 and back then they were with 4 of them. But,..larger is better and I don't know what would have happened if they would breed in a tank that size. For now I keep mine in a 90 gallon 48 x 20 footprint and they do fine!

Joe,...do your fish have tank mates???

I can reed German and are willing to translate the most important info from that article. I need some time but by the end of the week I put it on this treat.

Thanks for your input Joe!

Ewok,....unfortunately we can't see the pic. If I'm correct Jeff Raps got some! They are a rare specie so you probably have to do some investigation.

Talk to you soon and I surely will add more info. Unfortunately bits and pieces from books, discussions and experiences of owners and hopefully this will answer some of our questions. If someone want to make a contribution,...feel free. I like to know everything abouth the specie such as behaviour, what your feeding regime is and so on!

Ruurd


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## Howler33

Ruurd thank you for offering to translate the article. Iti is so hard to find good info on these guys. I keep my group of 8 with 5 Hypsophorys Nicuraguensis, 3 Green Severums and 2 Sajica.


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## ewok

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
that's really weird, that website is down now...
it was a french website if i am not wrong...
i'll dig it up again.
i am trying to get my hands on this breeding group, so will wait to hear back from the potential seller 
i really am interested in these guys!


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## Geejo4

Ruurd, yeah I thought the footprint was going to be too small. I will definately wait for a bigger tank to get them. Thanks!

-Joey


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## Dutch Dude

Joe (Howler),...yes there is indeed a big lack on info abouth Guianacara and it is time to bind our knowledge I guess. At first my intention of this post was to determine the specie I keep but now people show more interest it is surely worth it to share some info about them.

Your tank is a community tank but quit different as mine :wink: Some time ago I talked to Jeremy Bash abouth the Guianacara and he already told they could handle them selves well with more territorial fish like Severum and Brasiliensis.

Ewok,...I hope you will succeed and I have seen some great pics of Owroewefi! There coloration does look a lot like mine.

Joey (Geejo),....yes it is realy on the edge for a pair and I would prefer a small group of at least 4 of them so a larger tank would be best.


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## Howler33

Jeremy does know his stuff when it comes to Geos. I picked up a group of Altifrons and Tapajos from him earlier this year.

I would say the Guianacara can definitely handle themselves with mildly aggressive fish, even big fish like the more aggressive geos you mentioned. I am curious to see how the interaction changes when breeding starts taking place. The Nics and Guianacara currently school together during the day though the larger pair of Nics gets uppity when the group comes near their little cave. I recently added a bunch of oak leaves after seeing a post from Blairo and the Guianacara love to bed down in them.

I will be moving the group to a 150 gallon in a couple of weeks so I hope to get some better pictures.


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## Dutch Dude

Ewok,...your pic is on again and wow they are realy nice looking fish!

Joe (Howler),....Jeremy does indeed know his geo's and provided me with all the necessary info abouth the Bahia Red.

I'm curios to how my Guianacara will act during breeding time and what the aggression will be towards the tetras, pleco's and brothers and sisters. I expect no big issues to be honest.

Oooh they will get a nice large tank Joe! :thumb: What are your plans on the aquascape?


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## Howler33

The 150 will have a light natural colored sand with large fieldstone boulders and malaysian driftwood. I am covering the background with a cool limestone that my local quarry cuts the back flat to about 2" thick.

There are actually two 150 gallon tanks sitting side by side in the wall to look like a 12' tank. One tank will be SA and the CA. Both will be filtered via overflows to a 110 gallon tank below.


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## Howler33

Wow! Ewok, I just saw your picture of the owroewef. Those are amazing looking.


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## ewok

i am quite close to ordering my own group of guinacaras 

is there any difference in guiacara geayi, guinacara sp. rio caroni, guinacara sp. red cheeks?

are they the same thing, just different geographical variants?


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## ewok

just wanted to get a check on what it is i might be picking up... 
any confirmations? thought i would add some thoughts on this. 
i think they are geayi... but i wanted to make sure.


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## Dutch Dude

Howler,....your plans sound very nice and I'm sure your Guianacara will love all the space! A huge biological filter to! Your plans abouth set up are great except for one thing,...the limestone! It will look very nice but if I'm correct limestone will have effect on the water (raise GH, KH and PH).

There is some difference in the fish,....Geayi are from French Guyana, can grow to 20 cm (8 inch) and have some more extended fins. The formally G. Rio Caroni and G. Red cheek are the same only some difference in coloration (red cheek). Those two are labeled as G. Stergiosi and are from Venezuela and will be a bit smaller. The differences between the several Guianacara species is just small and if you like one, you probably like all of them. If I would have to make a choice I would select the Red Cheek becouse of their coloration.

About the pics,....some marks for the Geayi should be the saddle shaped lateral spot, the more extended fins and the blunt head shape. They should not defelop a hump on their head. So taking this,...compare with pics in the book of Thomas Weidner this fish would most likely be Geayi.


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## blairo1

Hey bud, so these are your new fishy friends.

Very nice Ruurd, glad they're proving to be a bit more, docile, than the big bad bahia :lol:. Maybe you'll get some rest now without worrying about them fighting and destroying plants. Very beautiful specimens you have here and I'm curious to see how the mature in your tank.

Not quite my "cup o' tea" with the hump head, but still very beautfil fish and I love the early headshape of them, I would say I'd get some but I want some Polleni first ...

Keep us updated bud!
Blair.

(Sorry I've not commented til now I keep missing loads of threads - I just saw another one on Bolivian Rams. Thanksgiving here in the USA today so I'm gonna go get stuffed and forget all about it, lol. Cat is looking after my fish at home, apparently my Rotkeil is missing me and is trying to beg for food more than usual - he knows she will give in more easily than I do :lol:.)


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## Dutch Dude

Heeey Blair,

Yes they are indeed much more docile than my big BAD mf Bahia! Those were beautiful fish but man,...they can be realy a pain in the,...a??

The behavior of the Guianacara is realy nice and funny and a great specie. Well Blair,..just a difference in what we like becouse the Polleni aren't my thing :wink:

:lol: (Well not enough sleep does have it's effect on you and we won't blame you for that :lol: 
Good to hear Cat is looking after the fish and your Rotkeil is realy flirting with here and beg for some food. I would be jealous if I was you  
Have a nice thanksgiving and talk to you soon bud.)


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## blairo1

Lol cheers bud .


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## Dutch Dude

The main things from the article freely translated into a kind of English,...I hope :wink:

In 2006 H. Lopez-Fernandez, D.C. Taphorn Baechle and S. O. Kullander gave a description of two new species of Guianacara from eastern- Venezuela.
Guianacara Stergiosi was the first to be described and was formerly known as sp. Rio Caroni. G. Stergiosi is recognizable on the next markers: The round lateral spot witch is placed in the darkest part of the centre vertical lateral line, is for the largest part situated underneath the (horizontal) lateral line.The other Guianacara species do have an oval shaped lateral spot. The centre of the spot of G Shenozona is situated above the lateral line and with G. Owroewefi on and just underneath the lateral line. When G. Stergiosi becomes older the lateral blotch reduces in a spot. Adult G. Geayi can reduce their lateral blotch to a spot but mostly a lateral blotch is visible. The first dorsal spines of G. Stergiosi are black (also on adult specimen) and this isn't the case with (adult) G. Geayi.
G Stergiosi occurs in the Rio Caroni and the lower part of the rio Aro and the upper part of the rio Caura (near Para-riverstreem). 
After this part the writer of the article (Uwe Werner) tells about his experiences.
I have caught the G. Stergiosi back in 1990 in the Rio Caroni near Paso Caruachi (eastern riverbank) and in the Guri lake between El Manteco and Utapa. The Guianacara in the Guri lake were in large numbers on the riverbank between river rocks were they established their territories. The substrate was sand, covered with mulm. The fish dug out caves and pits were they spawned. The distance between the territories was about 3 ft. Water values were PH=5.2 KH=1 GH=1 and the temp = 29C (84 F). The Rio Aro is a blackwater river with PH=7.5 KH=1 GH=1â€¦2 and temp 32 C (90 F). Large flat rocks were at the riverbank and in-between some arias with sand. There wasnâ€™t a lot of wood in the river and the water was a bit cloudy. Right here we noticed G. Stergiosi that is known as sp. Red Cheek. Stawikowski & Werner (2004) labelled these fish as sp. Rio Aro.
Guianacara Cuyunii is recognizable at the small lateral blotch of only 3 or 4 scales wide and the pelvic fins are shorter as those of the other species of Guianacara. Back in the 70â€™s I maintained a strong yellow coloured specie of Guianacara who matched the profile of the G. Cuyunii. The Guianacare Cuyunii can be found in the upper Cuyuni stream in Venezuela. Till now it isnâ€™t clear if they also occur in the lower Cuyuni or Essequibo.


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## ewok

so i finally ordered my breeding group...

but

two DOA's    

i think they were males

right now i have 5 left. i believe i have 2 males and 3 females, but that's just based on visuals... males tend to be bigger and have a more blocky head from what i know

sigh i didn't want it to be like this but i guess stuff happens


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## Dutch Dude

Heeey Ewok,...congratulations on your Guianacara!

Well I have 6 of them and 2 are definitely males (large hump on their head and larger) and 1 most likely female and one I realy don't know if it is a large female or a small sub dominant male. The two youngsters first have to grow larger. It is realy hard to tell if a guianacara is a sub dominant male or a female. Dominant males are easy and youngsters impossible to sex.

I would realy like to see some pics Ewok.


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## ewok

here are the pictures of the fish along with their tankmate, a yellow flagtail


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## Howler33

Ewok,

Your Guianacara look exactly like mine. I have been wondering if mine will develop a nuchal hump like Ruurd's.

Very nice pictures, I love when they get the dark line across the edge of the prlvic fins.


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## ewok

i think you have to wait a while before they get the nuchal hump
unfortunately for me, the two largest males i got for my shipment died... along with what seemed to be a female


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## Dutch Dude

Howler,...did you reed the translation of the article abouve? How old are your fish? Mine defeloped nuchal hump at the size of approximately 4 inch. Right now the dominant male must be at least 5 inch.

Ewok,...great pics and great fish! Sorry to hear you lost 3 of them! How comes? Can you figure out why they died? Was it short after their arrival? The fish on the pics seem to be healthy and of a good quality dough!


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## Howler33

I did read the translation post Ruurd, thank you for taking the time to translate it. My largest two are about 4" and do have a slight bump but nowhere near like your dominant male. Have you tried to vent them yours Ruurd?


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## Dutch Dude

Howler,...I'm glad at least one did read it :wink: I hope it was informative and to me the info abouth their natural habitat was quit usefull to.

The bump on the head of my Guianacara did grow even larger. Also the sub dominant male has developed quit a bump! The coloration also intensified. Unfortunately this is not good visible at pics. So your fish did already grown to 4 inch. I tried to vent mine but realy,..I can't see a vent! All look the same but I noticed some difference in the belly of the 2 males and the smallest fish. I realy hope they are males and females and not all 6 male! There are still 4 of them in the lfs and the vent aria look just the same as mine! The dominant male shares a cave with one of the smaller once so I think they are male and female,....but I'm not sure. Can you see a difference on your fish if it comes to the vent? If so,....could you manage to take some pics so I can see the difference between male and female?


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## ewok

dutch - the fish shipment got stuck at the airport in milwaukee overnight for around 18 hours due to a heavy blizzard that hit the area. i am guessing they died from the cold. 
when i got the fish the bags were quite deflated and the water was COLD. i'm lucky that those 4 are still alive. i had one dead on arrival and two died within 12 hours of being put into their tank. i was sure they weren't going to make it when they arrived as they were just floating all over the place and had very little gill movement.
ah well...
i'm going to start putting some small flower pots inside and see how they like it. maybe i'll start getting some pair formation. there is a lot of chasing around by the two larger fish (not extensive... it's funny to watch actually). i think i have a large male and large female pairing off. i don't know what the two smaller ones are though... but they are all doing very well now and eating New Life Spectrum


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## Dutch Dude

Ewok,....sorry to hear the shipment did go wrong becouse of heavy weather. If they were already very week in the bags their change was indeed small. The once who survived must be realy strong fish!



> there is a lot of chasing around by the two larger fish (not extensive... it's funny to watch actually).


Sounds familiar :lol: My 2 large males (with the large head humps) do this all the time. One of them approaches the other and stay still at a small distance and begins to provoke the other by moving an inch forward and an inch backward. The second fish does the same and rarely they do a lip lock. Really fun to watch. Occasionally a short spurt but thats it. Nothing serious and not ever once a missing scale or ripped fin. When I move towards the tank they stick together just like during feeding time.

I think we have a new subject,...sexing Guianacara. What I know abouth the difference is that in most cases the female is a bit smaller as the males. The pelvic fins should be a bit more pointed and a bit longer for the males and males defelop a more blunt head (small nucha[/code]l hump).

Ewok,.... the 2 largest fish do chase a lot,....I think they are 2 males that quarrel over territory. I have seen this behaviour with mine to. Question,.....do you see a difference in vent between the fish or do you experience the same as I do (hardly see a vent and don't see a difference except for a more rounded belly with the males)???

My dominant male starts to create a larger cave (dug out underneath the large piece of driftwood) and shares this with one of the smaller fish. I expect them to become a pair and hopefully this will lead to spawning. Would be nice! Water parameters are PH=6.7 KH=1.5 GH=5 conductivity =270 micro Siemens, temp is 26C.

In the meantime the fish developed some nice long trailers on their dorsal fins just like adult A. Heckelii. The colors intensified and the head humps did became a bit larger. I will try to take some pics soon.


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## ewok

i'll go home and take a look.
i haven't tried venting these guys because they arrived in such a sorry state. i'll do so later this weekend when i have more time.

the two larger ones who do some displaying do seem to have a steeper forehead profile. 
i'm wondering if coloration plays any part? one of the larger males, fish in picture 1 i posted up seems to have a lighter colored mask as opposed to the other ones.

dutch - i note on your picture the fish with the big nuchal also has a lighter colored mask... you think that has anything to do with gender?

great thread, guys. i'm learning a lot :thumb:


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## Dutch Dude

Ewok,....I did read some things abouth the mask and the saddle. Adult females would have a darker mask (eye bar) and would show more often the saddle, while male would show more often a spot and les obvious mask. This would be different fore the different types of guianacara and also depends on mood. So in e certain mood a male can also show a dark mask and a black saddle.

I'm very curious abouth the vents of your fish. I did read a treat on a message board that sexing them by venting is only possible right before the spawn. Till that point behaviour and the mentioned differences should provide a clue abouth the gender. But,...thats what I have reed on several boards and articles.


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## ewok

this is gonna sound crazy, but i think one of my pairs is about to breed 

i was feeding them yesterday and i noticed one of the 'females' had something sticking out from her vent area. they were moving around a lot and i was in a rush to go to work so i thought she was just going to poop or something.
this morning i went to do a water change and to feed them (new life spectrum cichlid pellets) and yup, it was still there! i looked more closely and there is no mistaking the breeding tube of a female cichlid   
i put a flowerpot in the tank a few days earlier after i said i would and i am very surprised that they are in breeding condition after their ordeal from only a week ago!  
the male definitely has a lighter colored mask and doesn't have the 'saddle' or elongated side mark of the female. the female has a black mask and the side saddle is longer and dark.
from the looks of it i think i have 1 male and 3 females, or 2 males (one sub-dominant) and 2 females. 
i'm really excited  :thumb:

here are some pictures to show you guys. trust me, i am not doing anything special... in fact their tank is bare with only some driftwood and a flower pot. filtration is nothing special either... 2 internal canisters. food is just new life spectrum and some occasional bloodworms and freeze dry krill

as i type the pair have been jaw locking of sorts behind the driftwood. i'll keep you updated with what's happening.

male









male









definitely a girl 









female? probably...


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## Dutch Dude

Ewok,....I do think your girl is ready to spawn and thats why her vent is good visible! :thumb: Would be great if they spawn and I keep my fingers crossed! Great pics and great fish Ewok and thanks for sharing! Pleas keep us updated on the fish and especially the couple!

In the mean time I try to get some new shots of my fish :wink:


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## Dutch Dude

Sub dominant male. Take a look at the huge head hump and trailers on the dorsal fin.










left most likely a female, middle one of the youngsters and right the sub dominant male again










most likely a female










Unfortunately the dominant male didnÂ´t came out of his cave. The colors are finally resembling more natural in this pics.


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## ewok

as of this evening there are eggs    

woohoo! the pair spawned in the flowerpot and there are from what i can see probably 100 or so brownish eggs laid on the ceiling of the flowerpot. i turned on the lights in the room briefly to see if anything took place between the time i went to watch a movie and dinner... and yes! they spawned!
will post pictures tomorrow when the fish are awake 8) :thumb:


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## eric

Congrats!


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## Dutch Dude

Congratulations Ewok :thumb:

This is realy wonderful! After the disaster with the dead fish (bad weather during shipment) you finally got some luck. This isn't a warranty for youngsters and first spawns rarely go right but you are sure you got a couple. Once they spawn they will spawn again. Lets hope for the best.


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## blairo1

Lookin' good Ruurd!

They look inquisitive.... Very comical too, I can see why you like them).


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## ewok

here are some new pictures 

the male is already ready for some action as you will see  i was surprised that he was philandering this morning with the other female who has been courting him. i think it's been established that i have 1 guy and 3 girls. i always seem to end up with this kind of ratio as a breeding group.

you can see the eggs in the flowerpot. the other lovey dovey couple are cavorting behind the driftwood.

enjoy.

diligent mom


















dad reporting for duty?









the seductress 









"just going out for some milk, honey"









caught cheating









the only two non-breeding fish in the tank


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## Dutch Dude

Blair,....thanks bud. They are indeed curious fish and do have a funny appearance. But the best thing abouth these fish are their behaviour. They are realy peaceful and curious social fish! They don't care for the tetras (even the small once are save) and aren't aggressive towards their own specie. Really wanderfull fish but you have to see them in the real to appreciate this.

Ewok,....thanks for the pics you added. Please keep us posted abouth the progress and I like to know you water parameters like PH, KH, GH, temp and conductivity (if possible).

Hahaha,...your male is a horn#y little guy, hahaha! Luckely mom isn't to bothered abouth it and guards her eggs well! So how are they doing right now? did the eggs hatched and do you still have fry or did they ate them?


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## ewok

the eggs have hatched if i am not wrong. i will probably siphon the fry out this weekend so they can grow in peace 
i'll go back and provide some parameters... temperature is 78F off the top of my head. honestly i am not very diligent when it comes to pH and hardness, but i can tell you that the water is probably lower pH and somewhat soft because i have this driftwood that is leaching a lot of tannins into the water. i'll go back and check.
honestly these guys were not hard to breed. either that or i am extremely blessed to have good water quality! 
fyi - i have guinacara fry, nandopsis bartoni fry, honduran red point fry, and i think my red tiger motas are about to spawn! too many fry now!!! :lol:


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## Dutch Dude

Ewok,...good to hear and I hope all the fry are well.

I already got some parameters from Richard and it would be interesting to compare those with yours. Probably they are the same and PH around 6.5 and soft clean water. So you got a lot of breeding going on right now. Probably it is in the water, haha!

Thanks for the info and do you keep us updated abouth the development of the youngsters and their parents?


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## ewok

i decided to remove the fry from the parents for this first spawn. no doubt that there will be activity after this with the male and his mistress 
the fry are now in their own grow out tank. they aren't free swimming yet, and have probably 1 or 2 days of egg sac to live off. there are around 50-75 fry from the looks of it (guess my estimate of the number of eggs was wrong!). 
yes i'm starting to think i have really good water quality here too


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## Matz KarlsÃ©n

HereÂ´s apic of mine Guinacara sp "Surinam"


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## ewok

hey cool picture, matz

any full tank shots?

looks rather similar to mine
thanks for sharing!

any thoughts to share on this species?


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## blairo1

So you guys have a real little fan club going on here.

Sort of a cross between a _Geophagus_, _Cleithracara_ and _Mikrogeophagus_, with a hint of _Nanochromis_ thrown in there (the tail fin markings) :lol:. They truly are a blend of some of my favourite fish, I'd have to see some pictures of a well matured (old) adult before I considered them, though they are growing on me....


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## Dutch Dude

Ewok,.....so the move of the fry went OK. Would be great to grow out the fry! Sometimes it looks like a lot of eggs and a part of them don't hatch off course so 50 to 75 is not bad at all.

Matz,....nice fish!!! They do look a lot like the fish of Ewok. Mine are the strange type as for as I can see on the Internet and mostly becouse of the large head hump of the males. How old are your Guianacara Matz and what is the size? Oooh and your tank,...looks realy nice and your plants did grow out nicely :thumb:

Blair,....hahaha,...jeh the fish are quit rare and not much info abouth them so we have to exchange knowledge and the positive side effect is that the specie get some more attention. They have a lot of common markers but the fish do have a unique body shape. They aren't the most colorful fish but their behaviour is realy wanderfull! Mine do well with small tetras and they do show some funny social behaviour. They are friendly mid size cichlids that do best in a small group. I realy recommend them! I'm realy glad I bought them! Wonderful fish!


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## Kjaer

I want guaniacaras! I love the blue eyes and their body shape


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## Dutch Dude

Johan,....they are indeed wanderfull fish with stunning bright blue eyes and they have a bit strange body shape. The best of them is their behaviour.


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## ewok

yes they are definitely a very interesting species. even when breeding the aggression is very mild. there's some chasing away but it is not relentless and there are only a few nipped fins.

my second female has spawned with the male. this is around 1 week after the previous spawn with a different female 
i'll see if i can mix the two batches of fry after this second batch hatches out. need to make sure the new fry are free swimming before putting them with their slightly larger siblings.

the first batch of fry are doing well in their small grow out tank now. there are around 50 fry that are starting to feed on baby brine shrimp. temperature is around 79F. water is straight from the parent's tank.


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## Dutch Dude

WOW,...a second batch of eggs!!!! Must be the water and be careful when taking a shower,...you never know what happens! :wink: Dirty little h2rney male you got,..cheating his wife!

There isn't much age diference between the two batches so if they hatch you can pull them and put them together in one tank BUT,.....don't put wigglers with free swimming fry. The free swimming fry tries to eat everything that wigglers,...even their brothers and sisters! Since wigglers can't swim they can't avoid this and will be killed.

Do you keep us updated?


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## ewok

unfortunately the young female must have eaten the eggs. the second batch was all gone this morning. 
oh well, i have way too many spawns of fish on my hands as it is!

ok time to go... need to shower  :thumb: :lol:


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## Dutch Dude

Aaah what a shame,...but,...she spawned and will spawn again  . How are the fry doing right now?


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## ewok

the fry are doing well. not too many casualties. i was away this weekend so just finished massive water changes all around.


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## ewok

sold my breeding group... 

going through some hard times in my life at the moment, so i've decided to get out of keeping fish for a while.

thanks for all the advice and friendship on the forum - i hope to be back in the future, but for now i needed a big break from things...


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## Dutch Dude

Sorry to hear Ewok! I hope you will get things straightened out and I hope you will be back on the board soon! Thanks for sharing your experience on fish keeping. I don't have a clue abouth your situation but to me this sounds serious stuff. The only thing I can say is that I wish you all the best and good luck and I hope to talk to you soon.

Ruurd


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## Howler33

I know this is an old topic but, four of my Guianacara have paired off and one pair now has eggs. I was curious if there was going to be any significant aggression when they apswned but, surprisingly things have been pretty calm in the tank. Even with my Nics spawning everyone seems to get along well.


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## Dutch Dude

Good to hear you got some breeding going on! I hope they successfully raise them!

Unfortunately I ended up with at least 4 males and 2 possible females. The gender isn't visible expect close to spawning. So it is possible I ended up with 6 males. This would explain the large humps on their heads. So hopefully I got some females.

In my experience Guianacara are extremely peaceful mid sized cichlids. They do quarrel over territoire but no damage done and no chasing around. They are so peaceful that I want to give it a try to put some adult Discus with them. This will take a while becouse I need to grow some 2 inch Discus to young adults in a separate tank.

So Howler,....back to the spawn of your fish,....what are the parameters (PH, KH, GH, conductivity, temp). How long did it take before they paired up? What is the age of your fish? What do you feed?


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## Howler33

Ruurd,

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. My parameters are PH 7.5 Temp 80, other parameters I have not tested for a while because my test kit ran out. I will get a new kit and let you know kh gh and conductivity. The fish are about 18 months old and paired off starting around a month to two months ago. I noticed two of the females with lowered egg tubes about three days before spawning. A male was was following each female at opposite sides of the tank and over the three days each pair picked a spot and then pretty much stayed there even at feeding time. The eggs were a grayish color and hatched into wrigglers after about 2-3 days (not exactly sure when they laid the eggs, sometime over a 12 hour perios while I was at work). The wrigglers were much smaller than other fish I have spawned. The spawning site is hard to see as it is in the back behind driftwood and rocks so I am not sure how many are still there or if they are getting eaten by the other fish.

I feed them NLS pellets once a day with frozen blood worms about twice a week and live black worms every couple weeks.


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## Dutch Dude

Hi Howler,

It is OK and I'm also short in time right now so no problem at all. Good to hear there are still wigglers and almost amazing for the first spawn! I realy hope they raise some. I can't remember exactly when I bought them but they should be for abouth one year now in my tank. Most of them are males but I expect 2 of them to be females. I keep them in 80, PH=6.7, GH=5 KH= 1-2 and conductivity around 270 micro Siemens. Mine still didn't paired off and no spawning behavior so far. One of the fish start to show more breeding colors (spot became a bar, yellow bars alongside and the lateral line on the head is reduced to a small patch close to the gills). I began to wonder why they would show some interest in breeding. Yours are 18 months so I still have half a year.

I find it extremely hard to sex the fish. The dominant males with the head hump are easy but sub dominant males and females will be harder. I guess I only know for sure when they spawn.

What is the size of your fish and do you have pics of them? Would be nice!


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## Howler33

Ruurd, Here are a couple videos of the tank. The largest male is a little over 5" and the smallest female is about 2.5".

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v725/Howler33/Fishroom/?action=view&current=MOV00197.flv

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v725/Howler33/Fishroom/?action=view&current=MOV00196.flv

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v725/Howler33/Fishroom/?action=view&current=MOV00195.flv


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## Dutch Dude

Nice fish Howler :thumb: It is a very interesting and active tank and their behaviour is realy different to mine! My large males are just over 5" as well and the smallest fish is just over 3 inch. I hope mine will breed just like yours. How are they doing? Do you still have fry?


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## DirtyBlackSocks

Reviving this thread.

I picked up some Geayi last week, they're still in QT but it looks like they're already showing pairing behavior.

I'll get some photographs when they're in their permanent home and start showing their true coloration - right now they're spread all over my tanks due to aggression issue's between what I believe to be a pair.

I'd like to recreate a black water biotype for their permanent home - but I can't seem to find any information on how to properly cultivate and cure leaves for a substrate.

Anyone have any useful information on what leaves to use, how to cure them safely, and where I should be looking for them in the inner city?


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## dwarfpike

That'll be tough. Oak leaves are the best, but most cities spray their trees in parks and such with insectisides which makes them useless. I suppose can contact the city in which you find a park with lots of oak trees and see if they do or not. Your area would be tough. You can purchase almond leaves online though, supposed to be even better, don't have to worry about pesticides, but more spendy.


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## Dutch Dude

Nice to see this post back again 

Guianacara are wonderful fish that definitely can use some extra atention as a specie. Unfortunately there isn't much info on the specie availeble but reading trough this post might give you a good impression and info first hand.

Guianacara don't need a blackwater biotope. In fact they live in clearwater aria's as well and are quit adaptable to diferent water parameters. They be fine on PH=7.5 as well. I do recommend a lot of driftwood. They dig pits around it and if possible underneath. They like playing around the branches and also use the driftwood for cover. As for plants,....they will try to dig them out so I suggest to put them in pots with some (smal) stones on top. I used litle parts of driftwood (1 or 2 inch) as decorating as well. When they scavenge the substrate for food particles they flip over small stones and driftwood to check out if there is something to eat underneath. This is real fun to watch. I also tried oak leaves. At firts this seem to be a good idea. It made the water yellow and lowered the PH. The negative side effect is that leaves begin to decay over 1 month and messes up your water. Because Guianacara are mid sized cichlids they produce quit some poo as well. This will be underneath the leaves. If you decide on adding leaves I suggest to take them out with every wc so you can siphon out all the dirt trapped underneath. I also strongly suggest to replace the leaves every 3 or 4 weeks for new once.

Most common used leaves are oak leaves. You can collect them during fall but make sure they are free from poison!!! I suggest to only use nice leaves without fungus or algea/moss. I boil them for 10 minutes to make sure I don't introduce bad bacteria. Some just poor them in without boiling and will benefit all the tannins the leaves contain. I would only take leaves from the deep forest and not from aria's close to cities becouse of the possible pollution. If you live in a big city and don't have the possibilities to collect them you might want to order them on line or maybe someone on this board can help you out.

The fish don't need the oak leaves and a sand layer with some large pieces of driftwood will be fine.

From what I heard couples can show a bit more territorial behaviour. Still they are peaceful fish that do quarrel over territories and most of the time threaten the other fish without a real fight. Very rarely they lip lock but still in a mannered way. I never seen even one missing scale or injury! I keep 6 in a 90 gallon tank and in the near future they get some Discus as tankmates.

I like to see some pics of the tank and your bunch of fish DBS. I like to hear your experiences with the specie and like to share mine.

Ruurd


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## Gordon C. Snelling

These are wonderful fish. I had them almost 30 years ago back when they were Aquidens geayi still. I shall have to be on the look out for them again.


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## Dutch Dude

That was a long time ago! Back then I was a litle boy!

Unfortunately they are rare in the hobby. The reason is their coloration. They aren't the most colorful cichlids but in my opinion they compensate this with their funny interesting and social behaviour. Best bet to get some good qualety youngsters is to check for fish bred by people in the hobby. I know Jeff Raps also sells them! Keep in mind that the colors of the pics on the site of Jeff are stronger than the real colors so you won't be disappointed.


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## DirtyBlackSocks

Well I think I have a formed pair - I woke up yesterday morning to find two out of my 4 guinacara beat up pretty badly hiding in corners of the tanks - being chased by a pair.

One was so badly beatin' that it died from the damage it took over one nights course - which I thought was odd since they're supposed to be fairly peaceful.

I have since removed the other and put him into a large planted tank - where he seems content to pick at stemmed plants and drag them around for no real reason.

The pair I believe to have both inhabit a flower pot without any signs of aggression towards one another.

I've gotten some ketapang leaves for a substrate, as well as white sand - and plan to change out the leaves every 3-4 weeks.


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## Dutch Dude

> I woke up yesterday morning to find two out of my 4 guianacara beat up pretty badly hiding in corners of the tanks - being chased by a pair.


I ame stunned!!! How can this be? Did you added lots of shelter (driftwood and caves) like I mentioned? What is the size of the tank? Do you have pics of the tank?

This is realy odd! I keep them now for abouth a year and not ever once a missing scale or demage. Even Howler reported the pair with fry wasn't overly aggressive.


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## DirtyBlackSocks

These are wild caught specimins, the largest male is 8"+ TL and they were in a 40 gallon tank for QT that was littered iwth all kinds of rocks and broken flower pots to break up line of sight - it's got so many objects in it that I can't even see the fish most of the time.

The pair were highly aggressive - the smallest one that was being beat up on was literally torn to peices with no scales on it's side, completely white with no fins.

I'm not entirely angry about it becuase now I have a pair formed, but the fish are so hard to come by that it does suck.

I will post pictures when I get them in their permanent home - which is going to be a white sand substrate with a lot of driftwood and a few rock caves - along with almond leaves in the filter for tannic and humic acids.


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## dwarfpike

But you and howler have differant species *Dutch Dude*. It does sound like *DBS* does have true geayi. True geayi do have a bad rep in books and such of aggression. Am at work, so can hunt down the blurps later describing them. The rest of _Guianacara_ seem to be mellow. Once am home, will dig into the referances I have for *DBS* even though he hates book knowledge!!! :lol:


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## DirtyBlackSocks

When it comes to rare species I don't mind book knowledge, it's the common species that cause issue with information being given out about them.


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## Dutch Dude

> Once am home, will dig into the references I have for DBS even though he hates book knowledge!!!


 :lol: :lol: :lol: We don't want to discus that over here right DBS? I probably gave you headache the previous time :lol:

Thanks dwarf pike for the info and I didn't knew geayi are the exception when it comes to aggression. Good to share this kind of knowledge so people can be warned. Sorry DBS I didn't knew this otherwise I would definitely have warned you for that. Dwarfpike,...I'm curious what info you bring up.


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## DirtyBlackSocks

Oh it's not your fault at all, I had so many decorations in this 40 gallon as a QT until I can get a 60 gallon setup that I figured they wouldn't even see eachother! I definitely wasn't expecting them to pair off in a matter of 3 days - either. Especially being wild caught fish.

Live and learn - unfortunately the only other specimin I have that's removed from the QT tank is over a black substrate, so he's not showing any color at all - similar to what happens to certain discus over black substrate.


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## dwarfpike

Sorry it took so long ... have 4 boxes of magazines dated all the way back to the late 80's. And only one article on true geayi, so it took awhile to track down the specific AFM article on acaras, circa August 1992 by Dr. Wayne Leibel ...



> "Wild geayoids, at least the ones I got in the early 1970's, where highly belligerent - along the lines of wild green terrors. The tank-raised fish now available are much calmer - even peaceful.
> 
> Their requirements in the aquariuma re few and they can hold their own in a rowdy enviroment of a mixed-cichlid community tank."


And in all my referances, is the only one regarding wild geayi. It does go on to describe their unique breeding, prefering inverted clay pots with the bottom knocked out. Very similiar to _Acarichthys heckelii_, which is why geayi was in the genus _Acarichthys_ before being moved into it's own genus.


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## Dutch Dude

Thanks for the info dwarfpike!!! I looked on the Internet and could not find reports of people mentioning the geayi are more territorial or aggressive as the other species. But like we all know,...info on Guianacara is quit rare just like the fish (in the hobby) I was shocked to reed the wilds of Dr. Wayne Leibel showed so much aggression that he even made the parallel with a GT! Surprising becouse my fish absolutely not fit in that picture!

DBS,...how are the fish doing right now?


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## dwarfpike

Oh yes, very rare info out there ... the lfs has some right now, just don't have a large enough tank for them.

I believe we are running into two differances ... the first it seems geayi are the most aggressive of the complex, and the two most common species (_sphenozona_ and _stergiosi_ aka Rio Caroni {your species if I remember right}) are captive bred, not wild caught ones. If *DBS*'s really are geayi, they'd almost have to be wild caught as true geayi are the rarest _Guianacara_ species due to it's remote, tiny distribution. Thus dealing with the most aggressive combo for the genus, wild geayi versus say captive bred Rio Caroni's.

Just a thought.


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## DirtyBlackSocks

Well after my geophagus debaucle this morning this certainly cheered me up.

I moved the guinacara into their own 60 gallon this morning out of the 40 gallon QT tank - when I was cleaning out the QT tank later on to sell I found this in one of the caves.


















I'll post pictures of the actual fish later when I've got more time to get good photographs - but this is pretty neat, less than two weeks and they laid eggs haha.


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## Dutch Dude

Dwarfpike,....


> the two most common species (sphenozona and stergiosi aka Rio Caroni {your species if I remember right}) are captive bred, not wild caught ones


 Thats right, I have the stergiosi formerly known as Rio Caroni. Mine are sold as F1 but I do have some doubts abouth it. Captive breed fish are in most cases les aggressive and not as shy as wc.

Good to get this info on the board. The rareness of wc geayi and the average lack on info on Guianacara explains why I can't find info on the board abouth wc geaiy showing some real aggression. I'm thankful of you filling in that info. Thanks dwarfpike :thumb: Is there more wisdom in your books abouth the guianacara? :wink:

Congrats DBS on the spawn! Quit a number of eggs to! So the parent's are no longer in this tank right? I hope they will hatch and the fry turn out to be peaceful like mine :wink:


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## DirtyBlackSocks

Eggs were gone this morning but the pair is still bonded, I had to get rid of the other tank (my fiance can only take so many fish tanks in the house hehe) so I'm sure there will be more - they were defending these eggs at the time, I just hadn't figured on them laying eggs in a matter of two weeks in a QT tank like that or I'd of let them be.

The guy I got these from is way more experienced than me and he never got them to lay, guess I just get lucky with SA's.


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## Dutch Dude

> The guy I got these from is way more experienced than me and he never got them to lay, guess I just get lucky with SA's.


The shipment to your place and the diference in water chemistry might have caused the spawn.

I like to see some pics of their new home once they are settled.


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## DirtyBlackSocks

Shots - sorry they aren't better but these guys are still shy:


































































http://s85.photobucket.com/albums/k45/D ... I_0403.flv


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## Dutch Dude

Mine are shy to but when I take place in front of the tank and wait for abouth 15 minutes they come forward so I can take pics. Your fish look nice and well feed! The tank is perfect for them,.....sand to sift and to dig in and wood to take shelter. I hope the wood is good secured so it won't collapse when they try to dig underneath. Nice fish and nice tank DBS :thumb:


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## Tonyinthemountain

This is my pair Rio Caroni 
these are kinda old pics tho, they are a little bigger now.


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## Dutch Dude

Nice fish Tony :thumb: Nowadays the Rio Caroni are labeled as stergiosi. Sp. red cheek belongs to the same genus. Did your male also developed a real head hump or only a very small hump causing a more blunt head compared to a female? What specie of Geophagus are those? Nice fish as well! What are your water parameters and the size (dimensions) of the tank?


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## Tonyinthemountain

Hey Thanks Dude,
Somebody once said the male Guinacara's face looks like a horseface, so I'd go with that :lol: Not a big hump, just more slanted and square compared to the female.
That's a big pair of Geophagus abalios, I'll post pics of them on a new thread opcorn: 
The tank is 125g, tap water :thumb:

Some recent shots of the fish, but still couple months old


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## Dutch Dude

> Somebody once said the male Guinacara's face looks like a horseface


 Hahaha,...I hope not! I think that person was confused with the Geophagus steindachneri,....their nick name is horseface eartheater.

The more blunted head of the males is normal. I never seen pics of males with real head humps like mine have. I think it is quit odd. In the previous posted pics you can see this but in the mean time the head humps are grown even a bit larger. One of the males does show a more redish colored head right now. I have some suspicious he want to breed.

Guianacara are quit adaptable to diferent water conditions and temperatures as well. I'm not surprised they do well on tap water. But,...I'm curious at the PH, GH, KH and conductivity of your tapwater. Do you happen to know this?

Geophagus abalios! Thats a rare specie right? Are they wild fish are tank raised? Is it right that they belong to the proximus group? Luckily you have quit a large tank becouse those can grow at a size of 8 to 10 inch! I look forward to a new treat abouth them! What size are you Guianacara?

By the way,....I put in my 4 inch young discus with the guianacara. No worries I have the possibility to pull fish out when things change. So far so good. There is some extra quareling (among the own specie and towards each other) and the fish still need to get used to each others presence and establish a new pecking order. I keep you guys posted and add pics later on (when the Discus are settled and used to their new environment and tankmates).


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## Tonyinthemountain

:thumb: 
You're the only other person I know that keep and liked Guinacaras :fish: They are very hard to find in the states. Most of my fish in that tank are very close to full grown now. The Guinacara male is already 6" long, the Geo. abalio male is atleast 10", the red tapajos pike is almost 12", and I have a 10" severum - one of a kind color - in there, too. O forgot a 7" barracuda  
My tap water is around 7.2 ph and with all the bogwoods in there it drop to 6.8 ph and lower the hardness a bit.
I have a first batch of the Geo abalios, about 50 fish, quite small around 1". I dont know anybody else that's keeping them around here. I know European have a lot of rare S.A. cichlids, too; even more than U.S 
Hope your discus get settled in there, im just a little worry seeing how mean Guinacara can be. I have a 55g with 4 large heckel discus myself :thumb: (I use peat in this tank to soften and lower ph)


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## Dutch Dude

Yes I like guianacara and not becouse they are such colorful fish but becouse of their social and funny behaviour. For a fish their size they are peaceful and well mannered. Of course they defend their territory but in a well mannered way. I have kept Brasiliensis Bahia Red and those were absolutely aggressive and boysterious fish! Guianacara aren't aggressive and don't even touch my small tetras or apisto's. Jeremy Bash once told me that Guianacara hold them selves well against larger and more temperamented fish. If I see your fish list your Guianacara need to be more temperament to save their buds against the Baracuda's Severum and Pike. They were in just with the 6 of them in my tank with 20 H. ocilliver (head and tail light tetra) and be just fine. I added 2 male Apistogramma hoignei some time ago (females died becouse of bloat) and the guianacara ignore them for most of the time. They only get chased away when they enter their caves. My Guianacara don't have to hold them selves towards a large or more temperament specie so they can show their natural behaviour. So far no issues with the discus. They sometimes feed along side and the discus even inspect their caves. Only one guianacara chases away the discus when they are in his spot of the tank. No harm done and the discus show some respect towards the Guianacara. I'm surprised how easy this goes and especially if I consider they are only tankmates for abouth 30 hours! I keep a close eye on the fish and can pull them out when things would go wrong. I have a 50 gallon ready for them just in case. But I don't expect problems at all. All fish feed well and the bars of the discus faded compared to yesterday.

I read some people kept discus with Geophagus Tapajos Orangehead and with Geophagus Surinamensis. The Orangeheads are known to be a bit more active and boisterous and I can hardly imagine the Guianacara are more territorial, boisterous and active. One thing get my atention,...the Guianacara feel more secure with the Discus around and don't act shy any more.

So can your Guianacara keep the Baracuda's at distant? Your fish list make me a bit woried :lol: You got a mix of predators and some more temperament cichlids. Your Guianacara reached their adult size. My males are abouth the same size and 2 maybe half an inch larger.

In Europe a lot of people in the hobby keep the strains of the rare Geo's alive. Some countries those rare fish are highly appreciated especially in northern Europe (Sweden and Denmark) but also in Germany. Guianacara are still rare in the hobby and the reason is their les attractive colors. Not many people know that they compensate in behaviour and will show some attractive colors when they are full grown. Mine are yellow and the males heads are darker and close to orange. Lots of scales near the head and gills do have small red dots. The other scales have small greenish or blueish iridescent dots. Something that is hard to capture on photo.

So you are also into Discus? Heckels are definitely the more demanding and delicate specie. I keep 6 Stendker discus of 4 inch and their coloration is a bit hard to say. Most likely they are a cross of red scribbled and blue or they might change to pure red scribbled after all.

Do you happen to have a pic of the tank were more of the tankmates are visible? Would be nice! I think we are both on a side of the limit. You with the more predatory and territorial tankmates and I'm on the other side with more delicate and well manerd fish. Interesting isn't it?


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## Tonyinthemountain

Pics is cool but come check out my tank on video :lol: . Geo. abalio and Guinacara spawn in this same tank once :thumb:






they're waiting to be fed here






Im a "huge" brasiliensis fan too. Here's mine, currently at 9", spawn once too 










If you like south american cichlids, don't worry, I got you cover :lol: 
Im also trying to breed huge pairs of "pada" Uaru and Psittacus :dancing:

I just bought the heckel discus actually. But all other fish I've had for close to 2 years. Might as well try out discus since im keeping all these SA anyway :lol:


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## Dutch Dude

Tony,....a very nice tank and realy gorgeous fish! I was concerned abouth the mix becouse some of them do have a reputation to be aggressive or at least predatory but when I saw the clips they all seem to be nice and well behaved fish! I was surprised the Guianacara were the once that showed the most boisterous behaviour. :lol: The fish seem to get well along and even no issues before feeding time. I guess the do quarrel every once in a while and probably after feeding. One thing is for sure,...the Guianacara hold them selves very well against the other cichlids!

So your worries abouth my mix,....well you were partly right! I removed the Discus and spend all day on changing and arranging a new home for them. The reason was not the aggression. Like I wrote in my previous posts the Guianacara occasionally chased away the discus but no harm done. They didn't attacked the Discus but the quarreling between the Guianacara over territory stressed them out. The bars on the Discus faded but in stead they became dark colored for most of the time. So I had to act to that. Well I tried the mix and unfortunately it didn't worked.

The discus are now in a 75 by there own and doing fine. They still have to get used to their new environment but show bright colors all the time. Still some stress bars every now and then but thats not surprising becouse they changed 2 times of tank in 2 day's.

Nice Arowana and a realy magnificent male Brasiliensis!!! I think you made a good mix in this tank. Brasiliensis come in diferent temperaments but ooh boy,...they can be nasty fish and beat the **** out of it's tankmates! I kept the Bahia Red. Their maximum size would be 10 inch but my 2 year old male was already 11 inch. You can see a pic of him in the profile section over here when he was abouth 9 inch or so. I sold them becouse they were to aggressive and the tank was to small for a fish that temperament. At first he was such a sweet fish but once he reached 6 inch his behaviour started to change and at 8 inch the troubles realy started. He's now in with some large CA fish and from what I have heard he holds himself very well.

I'm not a Uaru fan. They are oddballs and mostly I like odd fish but for me they just don't do it. I do like the Severum!!!

Overall,...very nice fish Tony and I like the tanks and set ups :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


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## Dutch Dude

Tony,....a very nice tank and realy gorgeous fish! I was concerned abouth the mix becouse some of them do have a reputation to be aggressive or at least predatory but when I saw the clips they all seem to be nice and well behaved fish! I was surprised the Guianacara were the once that showed the most boisterous behaviour. :lol: The fish seem to get well along and even no issues before feeding time. I guess the do quarrel every once in a while and probably after feeding. One thing is for sure,...the Guianacara hold them selves very well against the other cichlids!

So your worries abouth my mix,....well you were partly right! I removed the Discus and spend all day on changing and arranging a new home for them. The reason was not the aggression. Like I wrote in my previous posts the Guianacara occasionally chased away the discus but no harm done. They didn't attacked the Discus but the quarreling between the Guianacara over territory stressed them out. The bars on the Discus faded but in stead they became dark colored for most of the time. So I had to act to that. Well I tried the mix and unfortunately it didn't worked.

The discus are now in a 75 by there own and doing fine. They still have to get used to their new environment but show bright colors all the time. Still some stress bars every now and then but thats not surprising becouse they changed 2 times of tank in 2 day's.

Nice Arowana and a realy magnificent male Brasiliensis!!! I think you made a good mix in this tank. Brasiliensis come in diferent temperaments but ooh boy,...they can be nasty fish and beat the **** out of it's tankmates! I kept the Bahia Red. Their maximum size would be 10 inch but my 2 year old male was already 11 inch. You can see a pic of him in the profile section over here when he was abouth 9 inch or so. I sold them becouse they were to aggressive and the tank was to small for a fish that temperament. At first he was such a sweet fish but once he reached 6 inch his behaviour started to change and at 8 inch the troubles realy started. He's now in with some large CA fish and from what I have heard he holds himself very well.

I'm not a Uaru fan. They are oddballs and mostly I like odd fish but for me they just don't do it. I do like the Severum!!!

Overall,...very nice fish Tony and I like the tanks and set ups :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


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## dwarfpike

Haven't forgotten the request for more info *Dutch Dude*, but my book that has the info is at work and I was out sick all last week. It has a decent detailed entry about _Guianacara sphenozona_ and a smaller blurb about Rio Caroni if I remember right. Either way, once I have the book handy, will post up the highlights for you.


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## Dutch Dude

> I was out sick all last week


I hope you feel better right now.



> Either way, once I have the book handy, will post up the highlights for you.


Would be great dwarfpike


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## dwarfpike

In my fevered dilirium, I reversed in my mind the listed species. The book I was thinking only has a tiny blurp on _Guianacara geayi_ and a huge one on 'Rio Caroni,' which makes sense since _geayi_ were never really since at the time of the print of the book. Which is American Cichlids II: Large Cichlids by Horst Linke and Dr. Wolfgang Staeck, English revision circa 1995.



> *Natural Habitats:* Locality reconds of this cichlid are presently limited to the draingage of the Rio Caroni in Venezuela. We caught it in the Rio Cucurital, a tributary to the central Caroni. In April, at the time of low tide, the river had a swift flow and the rocky river bed was characterized by it's numerous rapids. The water was clear, very soft, and acidic. Large numbers of about one centimeter long juveniles were observed in calmer sections along the banks where they found cover amoung boulders and cobble. At this site, we simultaneously recordeed several undertermined characins and a species of _Crenicichla_.
> 
> *Site:* Rio Cucurital (Rio Caroni drainage) in Venezuaela
> *Depth:* >2m
> *Clarity:* >1m
> *Color:* uncolored.
> *pH:* 6.0
> *Total Hardness:* < 1 degree dH
> *Carbonate Hardness:* < 1 degree dH
> *Conductivity:* <10 micro-semins (sp.?)
> *Current:* Strong
> *Water Temp:* 29C
> *Air Temp:* 32C


Both species in short breeding blurbs mention they prefer laying eggs on the walls of vertical caves instead of the roof of horizontal caves like most cave breeding cichlids.


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## Dutch Dude

Heee dwarfpike. Thanks for the great info and I was surprised by some of the water parameters. A conductivity lower as 10 micro Siemens,....thats extremely clean and without minerals! For a clear water river with lots of rocks the PH is lower as expected as well. Great info and thanks for the contribution. :thumb:


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## dwarfpike

Found more info!!! Looking through my vast amounts of magazine articles, I found a key to _Guianacara_ species. Orginally created in an article by Hernan Lopez-Fernandez, Donald Taphorn, and Sven Kullander, reprinted in the Feb 2007 TFH under Dr. Wayne Leibel's 'Cichlidophiles' article:

*geayi:* wide bar only, no spot, no black on dorsal fin lappets.
*cuyunii:* thin bar, no spot, black on dosal fin lappets.
*oelemariensis:* no bar, spot only below lateral line, black dorsal fin lappets.
*owroewefi:* wide bar, spot on and below lateral line, black dorsal fin lappets.
*sphenozona:* bar, spot above lateral line, no black on dorsal fin lappets.
*stergiosi:* thin bar, spot below lateral line, black on dorsal fin lappets.


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## Dutch Dude

Thanks dwarfpike for all this very useful info :thumb: This definitely helps determining the several species. :thumb:


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## illy-d

bump!

I'm picking up some juvenile Guianacara's this evening and will be posting pics to verify ID.

Resurecting the thread ahead of time!

-D


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## illy-d

dwarfpike said:


> *geayi:* wide bar only, no spot, no black on dorsal fin lappets.
> *cuyunii:* thin bar, no spot, black on dosal fin lappets.
> *oelemariensis:* no bar, spot only below lateral line, black dorsal fin lappets.
> *owroewefi:* wide bar, spot on and below lateral line, black dorsal fin lappets.
> *sphenozona:* bar, spot above lateral line, no black on dorsal fin lappets.
> *stergiosi:* thin bar, spot below lateral line, black on dorsal fin lappets.


Hi All,

I picked up 6 juvenile Guianacar Sp. last night from a local hobbyist. I will post pictures tonight of the little guys/gals as they have adjusted very nicely to their temporary home in my holding tank.
His adult specimens, which I was able to view were very nice looking and incredibly mellow - he keeps them in a tank with other eartheaters, rams, tetras, cories and they actually spawned - without incident in the community tank before he removed the eggs to hatch and raise in a seperate tank.
These guys are still very small - although incredibly well fed/chunky. I think they are owroewefi (at least that's what the guy I got them from was told they are), but to be honest even with the descriptions above I have no idea how to verify what they are - without reference points to work off the descriptions above mean almost nothing;

for example: "wide bar, spot on or below lateral line" - does 'wide bar' refer to the marking on the body or the eye? does 'spot on or below the lateral line' refer to the marking on the body of the fish, or is it in addition to this mark? I've figured out what they mean by 'black dorsal fin lappets' but that's about it...


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## dwarfpike

I forgot to mention on the guide that in stergiosi, the bar fades as they age.

Both the bar and the spot refer to the midlateral bar/spot. Sorry about that. 

Unfortunately, the guide doesn't give referance to wide/thin bar ... like scale counts or anything. It was meant to be a quick referance to the scientific paper published which have the line drawings. I have that scientific paper here someone, so if you pm your email addy *illy-d* I can send it to you.


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## illy-d

Thanks dwarfpike! I'll get some pics up tonight!


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## illy-d

Sorry for no photos last night - I had to charge the batteries for the camera and by the time they were ready my tank lights were off and I thought "screw it I'll do it tomorrow"... So this afternoon when it gets dark I'll take photos.

I've been comparing the sketches in that article you emailed me dwarfpike and comparing them to photos of the parents that the hobbyist I got my fry from pm'd me.

I have narrowed it to two possible species; either G. stergiois or G. owroewefi.

The hobbyist I got them from says he bought (or identified) them as G. owroewefi and I have to say after seeing the sketches I agree - even if I didn't know what he said they were I think I would be leaning that way anyhow...

I'll ask the hobbyist I got my fry from if he would mind if I posted pictures of his adults, and I'll get some pics of my fry posted!


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## dwarfpike

_G. owroewefi_ and _G. stergiosi_ are hard to tell apart when young I've found, but adults should be easier. The _G. stergiosi_ will lose their midlateral bar except when stressed/displaying/ect, leaving just the spot while the adult _G. owroewefi_ keep them.


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## illy-d

dwarfpike said:


> _G. owroewefi_ and _G. stergiosi_ are hard to tell apart when young I've found, but adults should be easier. The _G. stergiosi_ will lose their midlateral bar except when stressed/displaying/ect, leaving just the spot while the adult _G. owroewefi_ keep them.


Interesting... His adults are fully grown, mature specimens and they still have the midlateral bar, it's much darker and pronounced where the spot is but it's still very clearly present as a bar that seems to 'bleed' down the flank of the fish almost reaching the belly.


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## Dutch Dude

Hi there. Good to see this post back up again. Not becouse I started it but becouse there is still a lack on info abouth Guianacara and they are wonderful fish that should get some more appreciation.

After years of keeping G. stergiosi I still find it very dificult to keep the Guianacara species appart. Diferences are small and there can be differences among the same specie from diferent locations. For example the dominant male G. stergiosi in my tank do have rather large head humps witch is unusual for Guianacara. They also show some small red dots on scales on their for head with makes their heads look orange from a distance and almost similar to the orange on Owroewefi. If someone happen to have the book "South American Eartheaters" by Thomas Weidner they can see a nice pic of an Owroewefi somewhere around page 312 (I happen to have the German written version so not sure on what page the pic is on the translated version). The fish on that pic looks similar to my fish only mine lack the red cheeks and the lateral blotch is slightly higher on the body.

By the way,.....Guianacara are shy but very curious fish. The Owroewefi are from Suriname what used to be a Dutch colony. The language is mainly based on "old" Dutch. The name Owroewefi comes from "Ouwe wijven" and in English this means "Old wimmen" we all know old wimmen are extremely curious and like to peek through curtains to see what is going on. :wink: :lol: I hope I don't offended any one right now :lol:

In the end it doesn't realy make a diference which specie you have. All Guianacara species have the same needs, are very adaptable and have the same behaviours. The fish from the sand rivers are more silver and have faded colors while the fish from the soft water aria's are more yellow based with stronger colors.

Imo it is important to create several caves and hiding spots for the fish. They spend most of the time in their caves and from time to time they come out to play around. Inbetween males challenge each other and realy funny to see the threatening of opponents by flaring and swimming back and forth without an actual fight. Guianacara dig a lot and realy protect their cave. Tetras and other small fish get gently pushed out but if a fish doesn't want to leave after a few times it will get removed the hard way. One of my BN's got seriously hurt in the past. At the same time Apistogramma swim in and out the caves without issues.


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## illy-d

I've tried without succes to get pictures of my guianacara fry - they are insanely quick and intensely shy, rarely coming out of the shadows so I can get a picture... Not to mention my qt tank doesn't have the best lighting.


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## mdog

The tank looks beautiful. Did you collect that driftwood or buy it? I have not been able to find what I'm looking for yet.


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## Dutch Dude

Mdog,...I'm not sure who you are asking but in case the question was towards me,....yes I bought the wood from the lfs. It took me around 2 years to collect larger and nice looking parts for my tanks. A part of the driftwood I bought turned out to decay rather fast cousing troubles like cyanobacteria growing on it. The parts in the tank however seem to be good qualety. So it was not an easy job to find a collection driftwood like this and I did spend some money on it but in the end I'm pleased with the environment I was able to create for the fish.


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## DDRE00

I have a couple of Guiabacara Geayi wild caught from the river oyapock and after half a year I got them to spawn and I must say they are beatitul while spawning. Really orange heads.

I found some odd behaviour that I would like to hear if more have observed. After spawning while watching eggs the male was forced out of the cave and he had to move to another cave (that he dug out after spawning) and he is quickly forced away from the cave as soon as he shows himself. For me, it semms the female does all the protecting also after they were freeswimming. However she only kept a very small territory free, just outside of the cave.

anyone else seen this behaviour?

I saved some fry, unfortunately when I picked them up with a hose I managed to take all of themand left her with none left. it made her really upset and she has not spawned since then. this was about 8 weeks ago. The fry are now 2cm long and have a 430 liter stank for them self ;-).

I have a short flick when she had freeswimming fry:
youtube: liSfij2B5ZE

In the film she seem spale but in reality she much brighter colored.


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## DDRE00

Flick link:


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## Dutch Dude

I can't tell becouse I never spawned them and from the looks of it have 6 males. I know Richard Longly from the UK spawned guianacara. He is a member on www.finaram.com and a moderator at www.oddballexpress.net


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