# What should I do with my hybrids



## acrosstic

So when I first started, I was inexperienced and I had a Elec Yellow and a Electric Blue breed. Then I had a bunch of rather cool looking hybrids. I think I saved a total of 4 that made it to maturity even though I started with like 17 fry. Parents Died when I was away at college.

Then I had the two dang hybrids breed and produce what is currently like 7 fry at various stages of growth. They are populating my tank for me.

Now I have a tank full of hybrids, not at all bad looking (even though the new fry could be) and they aren't overly aggressive either.

I don't really want to keep them as I am going to either do my new tank in male female pairs or I am going to do a peacock show tank.

I really like the challenge of keeping a mixed tank of peacocks and Mbuna, although I haven't had much success with Haps, I want to try again when I do to a 125. to see if the greater space as well as the better setup will help. The Mbuna should gravitate towards the rocky the PEacocks and Haps should be peaceful in the open water areas I am planning.

I have three awesome Syndotis Catfish and a lame pleco which I don't want either.

The biggest question is what to do with the hybrids. I don't want to give them to a pet store (Bad for hte hobby) and I could give them away free I suppose, but not many people want hybrid cichlids.


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## Joea

If you give them away, they'll end up out on the market or their fry will. If you don't want these fish, it's best to just euthanize them. Depending on their size, there are various methods to doing this. Some are a bit more violent than others.

If they're small, you could take them to an LFS that would be willing to throw them into a tank of large predators, they won't last long.

Freezing, clove oil or quick decapitation are some of the more common methods.


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## Dave

If you find it distasteful to put the fish down, you can always ask a fellow hobbyist. I have put fish down for friends in the hobby, and there is likely someone in your area that would help.

I really appreciate that you have asked for help rather than just dumping them on the hobby.

To everyone in general, this is why I am opposed to hybrids. Life happens, things change, and suddenly you no longer have room for your hybrids. Putting fish down as fry is much easier to do than when they grow up.


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## Kilpo

I love this web site, but this is the one issue that I think many people are ridiculous about. If it's a healthy nice looking fish, give them away if you don't want them. To kill them is just silly.

"Dump them into the hobby"? They are fish...give me a break!!

Maybe we should euthanize all puppies that are mutts, they aren't natural...
or even worse what about people who have kids that aren't any particular race, should we euthanize them?

Come on people!


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## jhunbj

Kilpo said:


> I love this web site, but this is the one issue that I think many people are ridiculous about. If it's a healthy nice looking fish, give them away if you don't want them. To kill them is just silly.
> 
> "Dump them into the hobby"? They are fish...give me a break!!
> 
> Maybe we should euthanize all puppies that are mutts, they aren't natural...
> or even worse what about people who have kids that aren't any particular race, should we euthanize them?
> 
> Come on people!


Oh oh    ..... :lol:


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## Number6

Kilpo said:


> I love this web site, but this is the one issue that I think many people are ridiculous about. If it's a healthy nice looking fish, give them away if you don't want them. To kill them is just silly.
> 
> "Dump them into the hobby"? They are fish...give me a break!!
> 
> Maybe we should euthanize all puppies that are mutts, they aren't natural...
> or even worse what about people who have kids that aren't any particular race, should we euthanize them?
> 
> Come on people!


 I would suggest you do a search and read up on all the rebuttals to your arguments... this discussion is an old one. No need for repeats unless there's a new point to go over.


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## boostspike

Mods, lock this baby up.. i feel another debate brewing..


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## Joea

Kilpo said:


> I love this web site, but this is the one issue that I think many people are ridiculous about. If it's a healthy nice looking fish, give them away if you don't want them. To kill them is just silly.
> 
> "Dump them into the hobby"? They are fish...give me a break!!
> 
> Maybe we should euthanize all puppies that are mutts, they aren't natural...
> or even worse what about people who have kids that aren't any particular race, should we euthanize them?
> 
> Come on people!


 :roll:



Number6 said:


> I would suggest you do a search and read up on all the rebuttals to your arguments... this discussion is an old one. No need for repeats unless there's a new point to go over.


I couldn't agree more.


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## acrosstic

My hybrids are nice looking and healthy, so I could keep them myself and monitor for aggressive behavior.

I don't think giving them to a fellow hobbyist would mean they would show up on the market, in fact, some people are casual hobbyists and just want something to look at in their tanks. Cheap and free fish are great for them and they don't usually care enough to ever sell their fish to a LFS or breed them for distribution. Most of these tanks are all mutt tanks anyways, so no risk to the hobby.

I agree on the reasons not to breed for hybrids or giving them to a LFS under some other breed.

However, I do think putting down a fish is a bit extreme, unless they are killing other fish. I'll just keep them, monitor them, and when I move to my 125 the Haps will hunt the fry anyways, so no new fry that I don't want will survive or at least very few.

Killing fish is a bit extreme. Letting the fry get eaten is natural (You don't have to save them). However, I have several larger fish now, one that is 4.5" and my larger fish don't bother the dang fry, they are swimming along side my 7" BumbleBee. When I add Haps, they will learn quick...

Anyhow, accidentally killing fish is easier than what you make it out to be. I had one jump out of a bucket, whoops. I had one jump out of the tank (he squeezed out next to the HOB filters, found him behind the tank.

I had an elec yellow swim into a filter bag, couldn't escape, died, then I had a pleco go in there to eat the remains, trapped and died as well. (That one was very strange)

I've had smaller fish get sucked onto the filter intake and can't shake free and die, some get crushed by falling rocks, etc.

There are about 101 ways a cichlid could die that isn't you killing them.

I did have to kill one cichlid, because he murdered ever other fish he came into contact with, but that was extreme case.

The easiest way to do it, is just deprive them of water. It happens to fish all the time, when I go fishing the fish die because they drown in air. So it is really not so sad to me for that to be the method.

I've heard Cichlids are quite tasty, anyone every eat them? Lol.


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## conor

"The easiest way to do it, is just deprive them of water. It happens to fish all the time, when I go fishing the fish die because they drown in air. So it is really not so sad to me for that to be the method."

Hmm. It might be easy, but it seems to be one of the crueller methods to me.


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## Guest

I love it when the dog comparison comes in to the arguement. :lol: It's priceless. And then inevitably mixed race arguement as well.

Bottomline is this is just a difference of opinion. No one can prove the impact of hybrid being released to the market. Or is there a study?  Do whatever you want to do. It won't make any difference in the hobby or the gene pool of the fish. But then, that's just my opinion.


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## Joea

acrosstic said:


> I don't think giving them to a fellow hobbyist would mean they would show up on the market


It's impossible for anyone to make this claim and it's naive for anyone to believe it. Fish can breed into the the hundreds and thousands over a lifetime and their offspring can do the same. Once you give even one away to a fellow hobbyist, you cannot guarantee that any offspring produced won't end up on the market.


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## Kilpo

The dog comparison is a good one, please tell me why it isn't?

Some say you need to keep it natural and make sure you don't mix species well, having fish in a fish tank isn't natural by itself. The fish in a tank are not going to act as they would in the wild. Fish in a fish tank are there for the owners enjoyment in watching them, not for scientific research on their natural behavior. Who cares if these fish show up on the market....They are fish in a fish tank for Pete's sake!!!!!

For me, I say who the heck cares if these fish are at pet stores. Do you really think these hybrids from the fish tank are somehow going to make it to Lake Tanganyika or Lake Malawi? I would love to somehow breed my Calvus with my Blue Dolphin, that could be some cool looking offspring. Heck, then I could fly to Tanzania, release them into the lake and create my own species. What do you think of the name Cyrtocara Altolamprologus Calvhap Kilpo black?

I guess we would have to agree to disagree!


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## F8LBITEva

OP post pics of your hybrids you got me curious


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## Number6

Kilpo said:


> The dog comparison is a good one, please tell me why it isn't?


Assuming you did the search, read through the many many discussions, if you still have this question, then I'll explain it one more time...

Comparing breed crosses in dogs to breed crosses fish would be fair... if one makes a labradoodle then it's still a full dog and the only people who will be miffed are the ones who buy a labradoodle x poodle x poodle puppy expecting a poodle only to have non poodle like traits.

Comparing a breed level cross to a wild variant, sub species, species or genus level crosses isn't right because the effects are completely different. When you mix fish that are MORE different than the parents at a breed level are, then the problems tend to be bigger problems...



Kilpo said:


> The fish in a tank are not going to act as they would in the wild. Fish in a fish tank are there for the owners enjoyment in watching them, not for scientific research on their natural behavior. Who cares if these fish show up on the market....They are fish in a fish tank for Pete's sake!!!!!


I've spent a ton of money on fish JUST for the behaviors... why is my (and many others) value we place on behavior not important? It is... and I'm sure you aren't suggesting that they aren't.

MOST behaviors in cichlids do seem to be viewable in large enough aquariums... so there is alot to be said for keeping fish that will look like, act like and be like the fish that we see in books and videos of the lakes we one day want to visit.

I agree with you that anti-hybrid attitudes can be a bit overboard... e.g. lumping all hybrids in to one single category while thinking line bred oddities are just peachy is one example... but to swing the opposite direction and say that there is NO problem with hybrids is just as ill-thought out.

There are problems... the only debate should be about how significant those problems are.


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## acrosstic

Joea said:


> acrosstic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think giving them to a fellow hobbyist would mean they would show up on the market
> 
> 
> 
> It's impossible for anyone to make this claim and it's naive for anyone to believe it. Fish can breed into the the hundreds and thousands over a lifetime and their offspring can do the same. Once you give even one away to a fellow hobbyist, you cannot guarantee that any offspring produced won't end up on the market.
Click to expand...

LOL. Okay so I can't be 100% certain. However, even the people that think hybrids are all fine and good wouldn't be stupid enough to sell them to a pet store...even if they were that stupid...then another aquariust would have to buy the hybrids to put in his tank with endangered cichlids that would cause the dilution of the gene pool, which I doubt a cichlid keeper would do if he had those species. There are so many levels the system would have to break down in, that you can be sure that it is EXTREMELY RARE.

Add to that, if I gave them away, I'd inform them that these cichlids are not to be given to a LFS or pet store and that a person who wants hybrids are probably not people who are going to be trying to distribute cichlids, and even if they do would probably only be to people who want hybrids or people with few if any cichlids at risk or dissappearing in the hobby due to this. Example. do you really think an Electric Yellow is going to dissappear in the hobby or a red zebra?

The only reason hybrids are bad is if they happen to come into contact with species at risk of dissappearing in the hobby. It is up to us to make sure if we have one of those that we aren't breeding them with a hybrid, but otherwise what is the risk to the hobby? Is some small amount of genetic material from my electric blue going to eventually show up in electric yellows in the pet stores in like 20 years? Even if they do, isn't that nature? You don't think we have all the different species because they cross breed over a period of time?

Preserving endangered species is the goal, so if you are breeding them, it is up to you to make sure you don't buy from a place where you could get a hybrid of that species. My LFS doesn't take fish because of this. I have confidence in their fish for that reason. Are we supposed to make sure our LFS is responsible? **** yeah, but that is with where we spend our money.

Saying I have to kill my hybrids is stupid!

The better way to handle it, rather than say they can't get out is to say we have to handle them responsibly.

I'll make sure I don't give them to a pet store and intruct the new owners of them not to. That way the hybrids are responsibly handled without having to kill them, and we can be reasonsible enough not to allow fish store or breeders to get them. If each owner of a hybrid passes them on armed with knowledge that they are hybrids that shouldn't be breed with other fish, then that is enough to keep the hybrids for causing any harm in the hobby as long as we are responsible enough.

It is shady breeders and stores that cause the problems, but they will continue to do that regardless of what we do. We need to preserve the species at risk, that doesn't always have to mean killing hybrids. We need to create a system in which both can happen, because they both do happen. Not kill hybrids to keep them out of the hobby when they are going to get in regardkess if what we do. We should be responsible enough to let hybrids live, but make sure they don't get with our endangered species.

We've got mbuna, peacock, hap tanks, why not a hybrid tank where we can keep hybrids out of shady breeders tanks without killing them? They aren't all ugly and if you ever get a mbuna that is killing everything in your tank, you can just drop him into the hybrid tank and not worry about him killing so much. If the hybrids tempraments are bad as has been so suggested, then a nasty mbuna would fit in nicely in a hybrid tank.

Both sides of the argument are extreme. We need to pay attention to what we are doing with hybrids, but to suggest they aren't already out there is stupid and having to kill them for fear "they will get out" as if they aren't already is stupid.

We don't want them getting crossed with endangered species means keeping them out of the pet and fish stores. If you feel you have to kill them, fine, but I'd rather let them live in my tank or give them to another hobbyist that understands.

Setting up hybrid tanks is the best idea I've had. Why not? Getting hybrids as knowledgable hobbyist ensures they don't get into the LFS and into the gene pools of otehr species and they don't look half bad. Maybe you get lucky an a cross looks cool (Like my first batch).

Wow, that was long, but I just think both sides are a bit out of whack here.

I'll post some pics of my hybrids when I can.


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## thevein

had to kill my sole hybrid yesterday..........death by 55,000 gallon swimming pool, she was used as a dither to help cycle new tanks but with their unpredictable behavior and unpredictable aggression she decieded to go after my breeding group of O.Lithobates "z rock"........and we can't have that.

Bottom line kilpo, it's thinking like yours and actions of others that keep places like Wal Mart, Petsmart, and Petco with their fish departments in business. No disrespect intented but I'm so sick of seeing these posts and I always say I'm not going to read but my curiosity of ignorance and uninformed people compels me to take a glance. I with several other local breeders work our butts off to ensure that through conservation and selective breeding we allow this hobby to thrive in the future.

btw, who keeps and breeds dogs as a hobby? besides michael vick


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## thevein

acrosstic-

still don't believe that yellow labs and red zebras are dissapearing in the hobby, go to 10 local fish stores and buy one of each, bring em home and let me know what you find out


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## Number6

Acrosstic, your argument is not without merit, but try and take it further forward in time...

When the hybrids breed and produce another 50 hybrids, how many tanks are you going to setup?

What about when those 50 pair up and each pair has 50 more fry?

What is 25 times 50? 1250? Where will you house 1250 fish?

As for the suggestion that the only reason that hybrids can be bad being the pollution of one of the parental groups... well, no... that's not true.

Inbreeding after outcrossing (on average) produces the highest number of deformities of any pairing of fish... so when you give away hybrids, people have only one choice... they let them inbreed or the cross to an unrelated mix. Think about the consequences of that choice...

There's also the problems of the unknown effects of gene combos previously untried and add to that the odd effect of hybrids often being far more aggressive than either parental species.

Face it... eventually any breeder has to put down some fry... it's only a matter of time if you are good at breeding and rearing fry... I've had to put down purebred rfit lake cichlids and pure Apistogramma fry... why are hybrid fry any different than them?


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## lorebitzer

thevein said:


> had to kill my sole hybrid yesterday..........death by 55,000 gallon swimming pool, she was used as a dither to help cycle new tanks but with their unpredictable behavior and unpredictable aggression she decieded to go after my breeding group of O.Lithobates "z rock"........and we can't have that.
> 
> Bottom line kilpo, it's thinking like yours and actions of others that keep places like Wal Mart, Petsmart, and Petco with their fish departments in business. No disrespect intented but I'm so sick of seeing these posts and I always say I'm not going to read but my curiosity of ignorance and uninformed people compels me to take a glance. I with several other local breeders work our butts off to ensure that through conservation and selective breeding we allow this hobby to thrive in the future.
> 
> btw, who keeps and breeds dogs as a hobby? besides michael vick


I suddenly realize this forum is not for me anymore. My tanks are full of hybrids and I love them all.
Bye everyone! 
 Loretta


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## Kilpo

Wow Thevein, you sound so smart you must have a PhD in cichlid studies. :lol:

To say that hybrids will ruin this hobby is just silly. If you don't want a hybrid, DON'T buy a hybrid, it's your choice. Do you really think that all Electric Yellows will just vanish in the future, guess what they won't.

I guess maybe we should only buy 1 fish species from a breeder at a time after all we wouldn't want to have brothers and sisters breeding would we? Is that your next thought??? Would the fry be more aggressive and unpredictable? I figure I would ask you because you know all.

I would like to see a study that shows hybrids are more aggressive than others. Oh, I forgot, your a local breeder who has learned so much on your off time from working at Taco Bell and I should just take your and some others word for it.

BTW- I would say there are people who keep breeds of dogs as hobbies and a second source of income. I for one, have 2 Boxers and a Boxer mix, I guess you could think of them as a hobby. If I knew the puppies would be taken care of I would breed my dogs. Most mutts are in way better health than pure breds by the way.


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## Number6

Kilpo said:


> If you don't want a hybrid, DON'T buy a hybrid, it's your choice.


How? how do I avoid a hybrid when they can often appear just like a parental species and it's only in the fry they produce that the results are junk... how do I avoid that which I can't see?



Kilpo said:


> Do you really think that all Electric Yellows will just vanish in the future, guess what they won't.


I've been shopping for yellow labs for some time now... they are extremely hard to find where the look like act like and are like the very first cichlid I ever owned when yellow labs were first introduced to the hobby... where are you shopping where you find yellow labs that look like labs with black only where it should be and are docile as they should be? All I can find is the all-yellow labs.



Kilpo said:


> I would like to see a study that shows hybrids are more aggressive than others. Oh, I forgot, your a local breeder who has learned so much on your off time from working at Taco Bell and I should just take your and some others word for it.


 To the first part... who on earth would pay for a study on cichlid aggression? What publication would I find this in? Sorry, but there has to be a topic of interest for a study to be done on something...

as to the latter part, what an ignorant insult to attack others with... I guess since you lack substance, ad hominem attacks are to be expected...

not that it's relevant but I'm quite happy with wife, kids, house, career, fishing... cichlid keeping is rather low on my list of priorities in life thanks... :roll:


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## CDMOK

Number6 said:


> Kilpo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you really think that all Electric Yellows will just vanish in the future, guess what they won't.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been shopping for yellow labs for some time now... they are extremely hard to find where the look like act like and are like the very first cichlid I ever owned when yellow labs were first introduced to the hobby... where are you shopping where you find yellow labs that look like labs with black only where it should be and are docile as they should be? All I can find is the all-yellow labs.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

The yellow labs you find in LFS and commercial chains are not of good quality and not always pure. I have learned this from personal experience.

Just because every store in the world carries Yellow Labs doesn't mean they are _quality_ yellow labs or _pure bred_ yellow labs - which is, after all, what this entire argument is about.

I don't think you understand, Kilpo, that the main frustration over hybrids is that those of us who are serious in the hobby want specific fish, and we spend a lot of money in order to obtain them. When those fish breed and their offpspring is not the same species that we thought we had and that we paid to have, it is quite a dissapointment. We can't sell those fry, we can't proudly keep them. So what, then? Keep them in a tank in a closet? :wink: Not that all hobbyist would go to any extent to euthanize or even dislike their hybrids - but at least understand the reasoning for those who do.


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## Kilpo

Number6, you could always buy your Electric Yellows from Thevein, I'm sure he has some nice ones he is a knowledgeable breeder after all. I know for a fact 3 stores here in the Denver area will have nice looking Electric Yellows (Golden Fish, South Broadway Tropicals and Todd's). Maybe you just need to look a bit!

I guess Thevein saying that I am ignorant and uninformed is OK with you because you happen to think the same way. I figured I would fire back at him if he wants to talk smack!

And, your right, "who on earth would pay for a study on cichlid aggression"...exactly!!! Then how the heck do you know?????

I think I have plenty of substance...you are the ones stating all this stuff like it's fact! GIVE me proof, you CAN'T!


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## CDMOK

Mods, can we please lock this thread?

It has been taken from a genuine question of concern to a debate that has become less than childish.

For those truly interested in the ill-effects of hybrids, I suggest a forum and library search on the issue.


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## Number6

Kilpo said:


> I know for a fact 3 stores here in the Denver area will have nice looking Electric Yellows (Golden Fish, South Broadway Tropicals and Todd's). Maybe you just need to look a bit!


 Do they have the black where it should be? and proper head shape? and their aggression level? does it range from mellow to medium aggression only?

and do they breed true for 5, 10, 15 generations? How do you propose I find this out? I don't need to worry about those questions with purebreds where I can trace them back 10 to 15 generations to who shipped them in from the lakes themselves...



Kilpo said:


> And, your right, "who on earth would pay for a study on cichlid aggression"...exactly!!! Then how the heck do you know?????


 I don't think I've ever read a study that says sticking a fork into my eye causes blindness... 
Besides... reread my words... I never said it is a fact that hybrids are mroe aggressive than the parental species... I said it's often. I chose that word specifically. It is a tendency not restricted to the cichlid world that has been noted by a large number of people involved in animal husbandry that hybrids are often more aggressive... this tendency can and will have exceptions.



Kilpo said:


> I think I have plenty of substance...you are the ones stating all this stuff like it's fact! GIVE me proof, you CAN'T!


 I can give you scientific studies on the other points about hybrids... just not the aggression part as it's not a topic of interest... it's just a general tendency. Which point would you like to hear more on?


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## thevein

kilpos diarreha of the mouth is making want to go and flush my toilet :lol: ................. how in the world can you state something so ignorant like "if you don't want a hybrid, don't buy a hybrid" How the **** can some unexpecting novice such as yourself tell the difference?? Ever think that most people can't tell the difference. The dog comments are hilarious :lol: No comparison whatsoever. I'm dying to see some pics of the fish that these hybrid "activist" keep. I'm sure there is a parallel. BTW, not sure what "smack" is, some sort of drug right?


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## Kilpo

Actually the main point I was bringing out with my first post is that I think it is just silly to put down fish because they are hybrids.

You ask- 
"Do they have the black where it should be? and proper head shape? and their aggression level? does it range from mellow to medium aggression only?

and do they breed true for 5, 10, 15 generations? How do you propose I find this out? I don't need to worry about those questions with purebreds where I can trace them back 10 to 15 generations to who shipped them in from the lakes themselves...

Do you know this on any fish you buy? Do you study every fish you buy on their behavior before you buy it? 
Most of all, is every pure Electric Yellow's temperament the same...NO, it's NOT! Does that mean you should kill the ones you don't like?

Maybe you should just order WC...if your that into it and don't want some mutt of a fish in your tank. Oh, but then not all WC act the same either, darn it, I guess we will just have to kill a few of those as well!


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## Kilpo

All this coming from a guy whos biggest tank is a 90...lol


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## thevein

cdmok is right, I'm gonna go somewhere and grow up

I guess in the end it really just bothers me in that great pioneers of this hobby, Stuartgranti, Konings, Ribbinick, etc have spent their lives to bring the rift lakes' beautiful fish into our livingrooms and our lives and to see the growth of irresponsible and ignorant "fish keepers" (not hobbyist) attempt to taint decades of reasearch and hard work blows my mind.


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## thevein

my girlfriend told me size didn't matter :lol:


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## Number6

Kilpo said:


> Actually the main point I was bringing out with my first post is that I think it is just silly to put down fish because they are hybrids.


 I would say it's silly to put them down JUST because they are hybrids... but I will put them down because they are a problem that can only be solved by death or sterilization just like deformed fish, off colored fish, etc. I only sell grade A fish (or try hard to... )



Kilpo said:


> Do you know this on any fish you buy?


 Yes I do... when I buy pure species that I can trace right back to the lake from breeder to breeder, then I know exactly what to expect (within a range of normal of course).



Kilpo said:


> Most of all, is every pure Electric Yellow's temperament the same...NO, it's NOT! Does that mean you should kill the ones you don't like?


 if ANY trait is not within the norms of that species, then yes... you do not use that fish for breeding. Regardless of purity, impurity, etc.


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## thevein

aulonacara dragonsblood ring a bell for anyone? good old fashion hybrid taking the hobby by storm


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## Kilpo

Just like lorebitzer stated that she had a tank of hybrids, some people may like the look of some of them...buy WC if you want pure and it's THAT important to you. Sorry if people like myself and others who won't destroy a fish because it's a hybrid according to you ruin the hobby and "all your hard work"! That's almost too funny to type.

I guess, like stated before, we have to agree to disagree, but to call me ignorant is just ridiculous! You almost come off as thinking your some kind of a dictator on the hobby...your way or the highway!

I choose the hybrid way....lol


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## thevein

:zz:


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## Number6

Kilpo said:


> Just like lorebitzer stated that she had a tank of hybrids, some people may like the look of some of them...


Then answer my earlier question... if you can't put them down or use em as fish food, what do you do with the hundreds of fry the hybrids will one day produce? Whether you will admit it or not, eventually cichlids will breed to a number greater than your tank will support... you will either have to put them down or let them get sick from overpopulating the tank... 
either way, death happens.

You have an alternative?


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## Guest

Or as in most cases in an average Joe's tanks, most of them get eaten by other fish in the tank, hyrid or not. :lol: You guys are way blowing this out of proportion. Calm down.


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## iceblue

I'm very interested in reading the answer to Number6s' question. All to often these discussions degenerate without a clear resolve. I personally euthenize the hybrids in my tank to both prevent overpopulation or add to the "mixed cichlids" that are so prevalent in fish stores these days.

I will however add a little levity to the discussion and a human face to the mix.
http://www.infowars.com/articles/scienc ... n_face.htm


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## Number6

iceblue said:


> I'm very interested in reading the answer to Number6s' question. All to often these discussions degenerate without a clear resolve.


 This is what I find as well... those who oppose killing seem to do so without offering any alternative save dumping them at a LFS for free to some unknown fate... to me, this is simply passing the buck because it's unpalatable to kill fish...

perhaps it's because I grew up on a farm... but I was always taught that if you helped bring it into this world, you best be ready to help it leave this world. Animals could not be kept forever... it just wasn't possible. Some of that thinking has obviously transferred to my cichlids.


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## acrosstic

I never suggested I keep thousands of hybrid tanks, but rather it isn't the hobbyist at fault it is the breeders and LFS. It is going to HAPPEN anyways. All we can do is make sure those bad breeders don't get hybrids, BUT if a hobbyist wants to keep hybrids, or buy them from one of those breeders, so what? There will always be good breeders as well. The system has to support both, because they are both a reality.

There are always going to be the breeders who are responsible and those we are not, ALWAYS.

If I know I have hybrids, making sure they don't make it to those breeders is all I need to do to preserve the species.

If I have a 75 gallon with hybrids...then they have fry, so what. More fry will not survive than the tank can support. Its natural selection. I never suggested saving the fry.

My yellow lab was purchased at my LFS and had VERY MILD aggression, black markings perfect, head shape correct. Very healthy as well. So, I don't know about your experiences.

Hybrids aren't bad for the hobby, PEOPLE are bad for the hobby. Breeders who knowingly breed hybrids. IF PEOPLE are responsible enough to notify other hobbyist that they are hybrids, and they pass that on if they give them up, the breeders should never be able to get those hybrids, and if they did, it is those people who knowingly breed hybrids that are the problem.

*How do we know if what we are getting at the LFS is a pure breed? We don't, but I'm trying to figure out how how the hybrid gets from my tank...to the breeder and then the breeder somehow breeds my hybrid mistakenly. MOST hybrids don't look a lot like their parents, and as the hybrids breed they lose even more of their parents colors and characteristics, I honestly am at a loss on how this could happen ACCIDENTALLY. What it is, is breeders doing it intentionally, and if they want to do it, it is still going to happen, regardless of if we kill hybrid fry or not.*

Oh and my mix was an ice blue zebra and a yellow lab, I remembered wrong.


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## acrosstic

For those curious here is my most mature hybrid, who looks NOTHING like a ice blue zebra or yellow lab. Pic Quality is poor, daytime shot and my front glass needs cleaning.


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## acrosstic

He has a blue face...can't see it that well... the black markings are not as prominent as his mother of course, and his head shape is closer to his father (ice blue).


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## Kilpo

Number6 did I ever say that you can't put them down or use them for fish food? NO! 
You can do whatever the heck YOU want to do with YOUR fish.

In the original post acrosstic asked what he should do with his hybrid fry and both Dave and Joea basically stated that you HAD to and would be best to put them down, I disagree. I think acrosstic can do what HE wants to do with HIS fish. If the fish are taken to a fish store they will be sold to somebody who maybe wants a fish that looks like the hybrids. Believe it or not but not everyone is anal on this subject like some of you guys are. Many people who have fish tanks buy a fish because of the way they look not because they happen to be a species that they have been looking for all their lives.

If you are having a hard time finding a perfect electric yellow because they don't have the exact coloration you want well, maybe they are hybrid so...DON'T BUY THEM!! I would say the only way to tell for sure is to buy WC..not a very hard thing to do!!! Then you can breed away and be very happy with the way you think you are helping the hobby and saving a species from extinction!

I have fed my 14 year old Tilapia Butterkofferi many goldfish as a snack over the years and would have no problem feeding him hybrids or africans for that matter.

I do find it quite interesting that thevein is so interested in seeing his fish act like they would in the wild yet he only has them in at the most a 90 gallon tank...how natural is that to a fish?

acrosstic, if you want to keep the hybrids keep them, or use them as feeders, or kill them or take them to a lfs and let them know they are hybrids. You can do whatever you want to do with them don't just listen to these holier than thou posters who say you have to put them down.


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## Number6

Kilpo said:


> acrosstic, if you want to keep the hybrids keep them, or use them as feeders, or kill them or take them to a lfs and let them know they are hybrids. You can do whatever you want to do with them don't just listen to these holier than thou posters who say you have to put them down.


 Well, at least we are down to the heart of your position now...

I'm going to accuse the hybrid dumpers as the "holier than thou"'s thank you. Dumpers don't seem to give a hoot if you deny me my enjoyment in this hobby and make me pay a ton extra for fish of known lineage instead of getting to go see tanks upon tanks of cool fish and knowing what I am about to buy. What the dumpers feel is what they want matters more than what others want.

Thanks, but to me, that is the ultimate holier than thou attitude... ME ME ME.

The DUMPERS don't want to squirm at having to deal with killing baby fish, which means I cannot get what I want... it's my wants vs a dumper's want.

So yes... I admit that asking someone to put their mutt fry down is putting our want over a dumper's wants.... SO? Why is a dumper's want more important than mine? Why on earth can't I post my want?

I'm pretty sure I can. 
:dancing:


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## thevein

i'm surrounded by idiots opcorn: this is too funny


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## Kilpo

How the **** am I denying you enjoyment in this hobby, if you want to by WC, then buy WC. If you can't afford WC that is your problem...get a better job! Or in your case maybe finish school. Why do you think WC are available?

"don't want to squirm at having to deal with killing baby fish", where did this come from...your reaching now.

"Why is a dumper's want more important than mine?", because it is THEIR FISH, not yours!

You can post and do whatever you want to do with your fish, I could give a rats ass. Maybe you should stop trying to tell others what they need to do with hybrids!


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## Joea

This thread has degraded to utter nonsense and is now closed.

I'll conclude with this; at no time did I say the OP _HAD _to euthinize his fish, it was my suggestion. No one here is _"trying to tell others what they need to do with hybrids"_, we were providing an answer to a question.

*What should I do with my hybrids?*

We took the time to express our opinion as to what alternative we feel is best, without any 'holier than thou' attitude. Along with the suggestion, facts have been thoughtfully provided to substantiate why this option exists, yet these are only met with hostility and insults, coupled with speculation and anecdotal claims.

If you have valid points to make when debating an issue, fine. When you don't, and all you have left is to resort to name calling or other forms of vilification, then please don't respond.


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