# Haplochromis sp. #44 "thickskin"



## JP_92

hey I just got one of these guys and am pretty sure its a male because the guy at the LFS told me it was but I need help. Its just under 2 inches and the tail is slightly red and the anal fin is yellow. The rest of the fish isn't showing any color. Its only been around 7 hours since I put it in the tank so it could be stressed right? I really want a male and I noticed the males in the tank were blue bodied at the store. When he netted it he had two in the net a slightly blue fish and a female. Im worried he dropped the female into the bag by accident. Here's pics!


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## StructureGuy

JP_92 said:


> Its just under 2 inches and the tail is slightly red and the anal fin is yellow. I really want a male and I noticed the males in the tank were blue bodied at the store.


Blue bodied? That doesn't sound quite right. Let's give it some time and see how it colors up.

My Hap #44 males showed color, even at a small size:









And here is a young female:









The fish in your picture is likely a female based upon the rounded yellow anal fin.

Kevin


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## Chester B

Kind of looks like a piceatus but the face is a little too rounded. One of the more common vics seen around Toronto is Pundamilia sp "blue bar" but this really doesn't look like one of those.

JP_92 can you PM me with the name of the store you got these at? It might help.


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## JP_92

PM sent. It was listed as "hap obliquidens". When we were netting him the guy said how he loved this fish. There was a display tank beside it and I pointed to a adult thickskin and he said that it was the same fish. Also when I said blue bodied they were very deep blue but you could see a few of the fish in the tank had a blue tint while the others looked like bland females.


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## JP_92

Sorry I meant they *weren't* very deep blue. (cant edit my post anymore)

this is a picture of the exact fish I pointed out to in the display tank.


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## JP_92

StructureGuy at what size do you think those fish were at the time of picture? *** had a very hard time locating any extremely young photos of this fish.


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## Eugooglizer

Looks female to me judging on two things: the rounded fins and that of the 6 Victorian species I have kept, all males have had some color at 2 inches.


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## Chester B

I know the supplier that this store gets their cichlids from. On their current list of tank raised victorian nothing jumped out at me as a match.

Haplochromis aneocolor yellow belly
Astato latifasciata albino zebra obliq
Astato latifasciata zebra obliquidens
Haplochromis sp. fire Uganda
Haplochromis sp. flameback

However I do know that they have been carrying Platytaeniodus sp. "red tail sheller". This species is characterized by an adult coloration of a blue body with a red tail. And the picture of your fish does have the same profile/body type as them, although isn't displaying the horizontal stripe. However this would be my guess at this point.

http://cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=2587


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## JP_92

wow that's a real nice fish too! I definitely would have picked a male up but I don't believe that's their list of vics as I took note of all their fish before I purchased some to do research on them. It's also missing rock kribs.

Anyway, I went back to the store today (was in the neighborhood) and I asked a different employee about it and they also pointed out the same fish to me. Now that the fish is used to its new home it definitely looks like the young female posted above. I think the guy just dropped the female in the bag by mistake like I said. I'll be going back to the store tomorrow to exchange my fish for a definite male which they told me I could. I checked the tank and these guys are still very young and are just starting to get color. I tried taking pictures but they just came out blurry. I just hope when I put the new fish in the tank it doesn't get attacked. I put a group in the last time and the thickskin is tied for the smallest fish in the tank.

Will take picture of then new thickskin when I get him!


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## JP_92

Ok so I exchanged my fish today for another one. I picked the darkest colored fish in the tank. Now that I have it home its lost it's color so ill wait to take pictures. At the moment it looks like the female from before although slightly different like its a bit grey. These fish are probably 1.5inches, are they really supposed to look like structureguys fish at this size? Zero fish in the tank look like that. They all look plain except for 3-4 darker colored fish. Hopefully they are JUST starting to get colour and I have a male this time. I really want a thickskin.


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## StructureGuy

That picture is from quite a few years ago. If memory serves me correct, the Hap 44 in my picture was slightly less than 2" long. When trying to pick out a male victorian, I generally look at the anal fin. The females have rounded, yellowish anal fins. The males have a bit longer anal fins that are either clear or have some red on them. It is tough to tell a stressed male or a subdominant male from a female, especially when they are young.

Did some of the fish in the LFS tank look like definite males before the net hit the water?

Kevin


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## JP_92

before the net hit the water, none of them looked like the picture you posted. There was like 30ish of them in the tank and only around 4 had any color at all. I got the darkest one. They were either blue or black colour and dark enough that they looked like different fish compared to the rest. Its hard to tell the exact color in the store as the lighting wasn't the best in the tank. The female I had before looked exactly like the picture you posted after a day in my tank though, so they should be thickskins.


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## JP_92

So two days in and it hasn't colored up like it looked in the store yet. I actually took a look at the pictures from my phone of the store tank and theyre blurry but I guess ill upload them and show you how the fish looked before I brought it home.


















As you can see in the 1st picture there are very dark fish in the tank. That's exactly how it looked when it was netted. The 2nd picture is just a clearer view of some of the fish in the tank, the dark fish turned while I took the picture and I think another dark one is beside it facing the camera.

Now for the pictures of it in my tank after around 2 days.


























thoughts?


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## spicoli

I'm having the same issue with a ruby green i bought on the weekend. He was amazingly coloured in the tank, but now even after almost 4 days, he's still pale and drab. I think part of it is stress, part is a lack of females in the tank to spur him to colour up. I'll be honest though somehow it looks like another female in there but i'm probably wrong. Any chance your fishstore hormones the water?


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## JP_92

Pretty much a week in since I changed the fish and it still looks like the last picture I uploaded yet it was dark blue in the store tank. Im going to go to the store on Monday to get some supplies and i'll check out the tank again to see if any look like actual thickskins now. Since it looked like the dark one in the tank it should be a male right, just not colored up yet? Any help?


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## DJRansome

He may not color up with the mbuna. My pundamilia (also an aggressive Vic) turned black...I eventually took him out and he is very colorful in his species tank. My flameback turned silver in a Malawi tank.


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## JP_92

That's very interesting to know. Thank you DJ. My rock kribs have colored up so far but there are 2 of them. The only thing about it that I cant wrap my head around is that this fish turns black with many colors so how could it just stay silver/bland? Youd think it would at least turn into a darker color at the very minimum. I wouldn't mind having a all vic tank at some point but right now its not in the cards.


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## DJRansome

Being silver is trying to hide. My sub-dom males in the species tank are silver.


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## JP_92

Im guessing the fact that it's tied for the smallest fish in the tank isn't helping things along either.


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## witamygreatdanes

I'm not an expert by any means, but with the few vic's I've had so far, I've noticed that the males have black pelvic fins from about 1/2 inch on. Now that is just my own experience, I don't know if that is a fact or if it is always that way, but females at least as adults do have clear pelvic fins. Hope this helps.


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## StructureGuy

witamygreatdanes said:


> ........... the few vic's I've had so far, I've noticed that the males have black pelvic fins from about 1/2 inch on.


That's a dominance/happiness thing to some extent. If the male isn't showing good body color he doesn't generally show black pelvic fins either.

Kevin


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## tranced

my sub dominant male thickskins just kind of look like a bleary dark colour, so it might be a male


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## JP_92

I decided to pick up 3 more thickskins. 2 for sure females and another suspect male. Im going to keep them in my 10 gallon together alone until they get a bit bigger. Very interested to see if they will change color living together. Right now they've been in my main tank while *** been waiting on my other tank to be ready. Neither of the suspect males look like they did in store but the females look the same as when I got them.


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## JP_92

So its been almost a month since I got my extra thickskins, 4 in total. They've been in my main tank the whole time and never colored up. I had 2 that from the LFS were very dark like in the blurry photo I posted before. Theyre about 2" and I"ve put them in a 10 gallon to see if any of them will show colour. They all look like females to me with the most dominate one showing darker bars and darker pelvic fins.

How long should I wait with them in the 10g to see if they show color? I'll post pictures tomorrow.


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## JP_92

So after seeing these fish for a month and in the tank on their own there was no way they were males. Finally I can put this thickskin ordeal behind me... I took 2 back to the store and exchanged them in for males. Here is a photo update, hope you guys like it! :fish: :thumb: 

First my two remaining females...

















Next we have the two males in their bags still...

















...and finally straight out of the bag we have a fight between the two males. The darker male is actually the fish in the 2nd picture!

























Knockout by the underdog! Haha very happy to know I definitely have at least 1 male, finally. :lol:


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## JP_92

Well it seems like I probably have 3M:1F. After adding the 2 males in, one of my older fish colored up the next morning. I suspected the silver fish I called female might be a male.

Here he is after coloring up. Seems to have been fighting and is now the dominate fish in the tank. 









Since theres 3 males in there im going to take the new male that showed color while bagged and let him live in the main tank and hope he keeps coloring!


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## AC

Chester B said:


> I know the supplier that this store gets their cichlids from. On their current list of tank raised victorian nothing jumped out at me as a match.
> 
> Haplochromis aneocolor yellow belly
> Astato latifasciata albino zebra obliq
> Astato latifasciata zebra obliquidens
> Haplochromis sp. fire Uganda
> Haplochromis sp. flameback
> 
> However I do know that they have been carrying Platytaeniodus sp. "red tail sheller". This species is characterized by an adult coloration of a blue body with a red tail. And the picture of your fish does have the same profile/body type as them, although isn't displaying the horizontal stripe. However this would be my guess at this point.
> 
> http://cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=2587


I think you are right with the red tail sheller ID


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## JP_92

Aren't red tail shellers not that aggressive? These guys are extremely aggressive. Id be happy with either of them if they turn out that way but the females never had a horizontal stripe so im thinking thickskins. I also never saw a red tail sheller in the display tank. The nice thickskin picture from the display tank actually died and they replaced him with one of the fish from the batch I bought. He's bigger than my fish with some color showing, sadly I don't have a picture.


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## StructureGuy

AC said:


> I think you are right with the red tail sheller ID


The very first picture in this thread looked like it could possibly be a red tail sheller. But none of the pictures after that one look anything like a red tail sheller. Hap #44 are infamous cross-breeders and I really think you likely have a bunch of hybrid Hap #44's. Time will tell, but none of them look very good so far to me.

Kevin


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## AC

Some of the pictures do look like sub adult male or female Red Tail Shellers, others look like hybrids.

You are right about SP 44's being infamous cross breeders.

I was told they were actually messed up during the original collection/import.

The wrong females were collected as SP 44s.

I have yet to see any that have barring and coloration like wild caught specimens.


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## JP_92

As I said before they replaced the thickskin that died in the display tank with one from this batch. When I first saw him he was probably 3 inches with some color but faded looking. Well I was at the store for supplies and I got a picture of him now. Since its a display tank id assume its extremely well maintained with premium food and such because since the last time I saw the fish it must have put on almost an inch. Its around 4" now yet mine are around 2" still.










With the hybrid talk and sheller talk what do you guys think about this picture?


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## AC

Hybrid.


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## AC

That is what one should look like


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## JP_92

Anybody else want to confirm these guys as hybrids? Im going to keep 1 of them regardless and take 3 back to the store and try to get a full refund on them because I was told they were thickskins. I've never dealt with these fish before so if more people could give their opinion it would be helpful. Myself i'd agree with the hybrid claim.


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## Chester B

Doesn't look right to me either.


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## AC

JP,

This fish was supposedly screwed up during the original import where the wrong females were collected.

I do not know that is 100% true, but it sounds very possible.

I bought a group of fry to grow out from a very reputable dealer and they don't look right to me either.

They are not near fully mature yet, but the barring looks off enough to feel that I know I have bunk.

It's a species I will just stay away from for now on...


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## JP_92

yeah, I bought mine from a reputable dealer too. I see A LOT of small differences when I look at pictures of these fish. The biggest difference I see is the amount of black they have. I think with dealing with this type of fish you should make sure to see what the parents look like or only buy them once they've matured. Almost every picture is see has some type of difference. For instance just look at the profile here. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1546 Not one of them looks exactly the same as the other.


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## StructureGuy

JP_92 said:


> Almost every picture is see has some type of difference. For instance just look at the profile here. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1546 Not one of them looks exactly the same as the other.


Of course I could show you pictures of any number of Victorian cichlids at different ages and in different moods and you could say exactly the same thing.

If I were to buy a Hap #44 I would look for a fish with a yellow body, 5 or 6 vertical black bars, a black "face", red fins and a pointed "snout". Just below the dorsal fins there is some black or some red. That's not exactly a scientific definition, it's just what I've seen from some better than average stock. It certainly is a fish that has been in the hobby a long time and seems to be more mixed and hybridized than most vic species.

Just MHO

Kevin


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## Cichlidman14

Try getting some females. He will definitily color up once he learns that they're are potential mates.


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## JP_92

Update: So these fish have been confirmed not sp 44. The store really couldn't tell me what they were... its clear its part thickskin though. Today I kept the most colorful one which was actually one of the new males I recently got. I kept him alone in a 5.5gal because his tail was shredded. The water quality was better in that tank and I kept feeding him regularly. With no other fish to stress him out he was the only one that coloured up and he got to be the biggest or tied for the biggest out of the 4.

The store just got in a shipment of sp 44. They were around 1" or less and you could already see barring and red fins. I picked one up. The fish had red on all fins and the anal fin seems longer not rounded, even has an egg spot. Ill post pictures eventually.


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## JP_92

Here is an update of my male hybrid Thickskin. I can only take photos with flash because my OLD camera is blurry with it off.

I kept this one.









He was the only one that colored up and lived alone after a failed attempt in the main tank when he got his tail shredded.










Once he got around 2.5-3" I put him in the main tank where he's doing fine and looks like this...


























This last pic of him is blurry but it does capture the top red color that is washed out by the flash in the others.
His color is a darkish blue/purple head blending into a redish top then orange/yellow/green body with light blue, red tipped fins.










Anyone have any guesses at what the thickskin could have mated with?


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## JP_92

I know my pictures aren't the best but I think this is either a

thickskin kyoga flameback hybrid


















or

thickskin Xmas Fulu hybrid










I'm leaning towards the flameback. *** seen flamebacks at the LFS and someone locally selling a group of xmas fulu.


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## JP_92

Well this will probably be my last update in this thread. I happened to have a better camera for pictures this time but it's hard getting pictures of fish! I don't know how some of you pull such great pictures.

So the update on the Hybrid is that he pisses off pretty much every fish in the tank. Normally he wont show his barring, it only comes out around feeding time or when he about to get in a fight, which isn't often. I got this one clear shot of him and his barring is at around 50% max darkness. Normally he looks like the pictures I posted before which is nowhere near as nice as this or id want to keep him. He's around 3".










The next fish is my non-hybrid thickskin that's in a grow out tank. His barring is pretty much always visible but he can make them darker. He's in the 2-2.5" range.

With flash.









Not the best lighting for grow out tank but here's without flash.









So what do you guys think of my new thickskin and your thoughts on how the hybrid looks?


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