# 75G Stock Help



## Drew31 (Feb 16, 2018)

I'm about a year in to my 1st Cichlid tank. Wasn't able to finish my stocking so I'm trying to determine best course of action. Here's where I'm at presently. Note that I'm not great with the scientific names so going to just use the common. I can clarify as needed.

5 Yellow Labs (2 are very much juvies which survived as fry)
3 White Labs
1 Lithobate
1 Ahli
1 Strawberry Peacock
5 synodontis multipunctatus

If I had to do over, I wouldn't have gotten the Peacock. But it is by far the prettiest and biggest fish in the tank at moment so don't think I'd want to part with it. He's also the most aggressive as I think he might have killed an Deep Water Electra & Sunshine Peacock that I had mid-summer last year. He doesn't really bother the Labs or remaining Haps. So just not sure best way forward. Lithobate is a male starting to color pretty nice. Ahli also a male, still a smallish side without much color.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Do you want all-male haps and peacocks with a group of yellow labs in the end?

Or do you want breeding groups (because you had problems with your must-have fish killing others) with possibly labs, strawberries and lithobates?

I would choose either white or yellow labs and don't save fry that were spawned when both species were in the tank.


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## Drew31 (Feb 16, 2018)

I think my preference would be the all male haps/peacocks with the labs. But...I can see where I may have some struggles pulling that off. I'd rather just avoid the fry/breeding issue though I'm not opppsed to groups.

Am an you explain the reason for now keeping the fry? Or what you recommend I do with the 2 I have that have survived?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yellow labs and white labs are likely to crossbreed, so you can't be sure the fry are pure. A hybrid can look exactly like either parent.

I avoid the issue with my stocking because I don't like to euthanize and I don't always have room to house hybrids separately for their 8-year life span.

I would rehome either the white or yellow labs and put the survivors in a separate tank.

I would do 1m:6f each of the labs, lithobates and strawberries since they like each other and you like them.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Agree on focusing on 1 Lab variant, as DJ advised. They are the same species, but from different locales in Lake Malawi. No doubt, they will crossbreed, if that has not happened already.

If taking the Lab, Strawberry, Lithobates route...
I'd take the Lions Cove/Yellow, simply to add an electric splash to the tank. You'll have plenty of white/off white with the Dragonsblood/Strawberry.


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## Drew31 (Feb 16, 2018)

Thanks for the help/thoughts. Are there dangers to the hybrids or just the idea that they may not be "pure". Just making sure I understand.

Let's assume I can re-home the 3xwhite labs and the 2 surviving fry. I think I should be able to find a home at some local fish stores.

I'd get ~3 more yellow labs. So now I'd be at 6 yellows, with the strawberry, lithobate, ahli. IF, I wanted to add additional males what would be safer bets?

If I go the lithobate/strawberry route, your advice would be to get females only of each. You're also saying 6 females of each? So i'd be up to ~18-20 cichlids in the end? What about the ahli under this scenario.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Once the hybrids are adults, you will not be able to tell which are the survivor fry and which are the pure fish you originally bought. At that point you would not have the option to sell rehome any of them. It does not help the hobby to let possible hybrids out of your home.

For a 75G mixed gender 20 fish is a good number. The ahli (really sciaenochromis fryeri) crossbreed with peacocks so you don't want them with the strawberry.

If you must keep the aggressive strawberry, how would you find other haps or peacocks that would survive? He already killed an electra and a sunshine, which are sturdy fish.


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## Drew31 (Feb 16, 2018)

The 20 doesn't count the synodontis correct?

I see what you mean on the hybrid.

If my end target is something like 6 yellow labs, 4 lithobates, 4 strawberries and maybe try another hap species of 4, would that work?

I guess at store I'd be asking for females when I get more lithobates/strawberries and then hope they can sex. If not, I may just have to rehome as mature??

Trying to learn how it works


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I have never has luck with quads. 1m:4f of each for 4 species.

Your problem is your killer strawberry. You need something fairly aggressive but still small enough for a 75G. I have had luck with the Victorian Astatotilapia latifasciata and the females look nothing like the lithobates females which is also essential...you could try them.

It is hard to find females that are reliably (key word) sexed, even from excellent online vendors. Then expensive. What we do is order 8 unsexed juveniles and then rehome the extra males as they mature and cause trouble.


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## Drew31 (Feb 16, 2018)

Thanks. I think I've got some thinking to do on what to do. I don't really have re-homing options other than trying to return/give to store on these which makes things a tad more difficult. Btw, put a couple (not great) pics of what I was told was a Strawberry when purchased in case you see something that would indicate otherwise. Would hate to purchase more strawberries only to find I've just compounded the problem.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would find it hard to keep cichlids without a rehoming plan. That's exactly what I do...sell the adults to the LFS for store credit. Or sell them at a fish club auction.

Strawberries are hybrids anyway. As long as you buy fish sold as strawberries, you should be OK.


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## Sub-Mariner (Dec 7, 2011)

Drew31 said:


> Thanks. I think I've got some thinking to do on what to do. I don't really have re-homing options other than trying to return/give to store on these which makes things a tad more difficult. Btw, put a couple (not great) pics of what I was told was a Strawberry when purchased in case you see something that would indicate otherwise. Would hate to purchase more strawberries only to find I've just compounded the problem.
> 
> View attachment 1


Hybrid, dragonblood, firefish, strawberry...same hybrid different names / shades of orange and red. Nobody can know exactly what they're mixed with.

Since he's that aggressive why do you want to keep him? He could just kill your new fish too.

I had a firefish, more orange, but he was super mellow. If that were my fish I would get rid of him.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## Drew31 (Feb 16, 2018)

I'm heading to the LFS this week so may ask to understand their policies on rehoming or trading. If their policies or favorable, then that should open my options.

As for the strawberry, I should note that he is much more mellow now with current inhabitants. Haven't seen him chasing anyone. I bought him as one of my first cichlids when I jumped in too fast without understanding what I was doing and just taking LFS advice. So bit of emotional attachment plus he is best looking fish in tank...at present.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Not sure where you're at in Indiana, but take a look at the GCCA.net. Greater Chicago Cichlid Association. May be worth the trip to their upcoming fish swap on 3/10. You can even use their free classifieds section to sell your fish.


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## Drew31 (Feb 16, 2018)

Made it to LFS, they'll take back things. Didn't ask about any store credit/trade in, but at least I have option.

Thinking about this approach after reading through the cookie cutter ideas and thinking this through...

Return tomorrow 3xWhite Labs and Return Ahli (probably dullest looking fish I have anyway).

GET: 3xYellow Labs, 4xAcei (Actually pulled trigger on this one tonight), 3xLithobates

So...End up with 8xYellow Labs, 4xAcei, 4xLithobates, 1xStrawberry, 5xMultipunctus.

Now, I'm counting the 2 fry as part of my yellow labs. Separate tank isn't an option and I just don't really have many other good options other than to keep them. Just will have to hope nature takes care of future fry I guess? I got the Acei tonight to try to move closer toward some of the reco'd setup. I really don't want to double down on any more Strawberrys, even though I like the one I have...just in case I do have to get rid of him. If I got more, then I've got more to figure out what to do. So, figure I can move towards a 3 species setup with this and then just see how or what to do with the strawberry. If he wasn't included above, it seems I'd have a decent stocking???

Hope I haven't made things worse....


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## Drew31 (Feb 16, 2018)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Not sure where you're at in Indiana, but take a look at the GCCA.net. Greater Chicago Cichlid Association. May be worth the trip to their upcoming fish swap on 3/10. You can even use their free classifieds section to sell your fish.


Unfortunately other end of the state so that one probably won't work though I may check it out in case people post from other sections of state. I am trying to find time to see what is out there around me where I could find re-homing options.


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## Drew31 (Feb 16, 2018)

Drew31 said:


> Made it to LFS, they'll take back things. Didn't ask about any store credit/trade in, but at least I have option.
> 
> Thinking about this approach after reading through the cookie cutter ideas and thinking this through...
> 
> ...


Only other thought is whether 4 or 5 is right number


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Four is not the right number...with 3 species plus one male, go for 6 of each and specifically 1m:5f. Trios and even quads are more likely to have aggression issues than 1m:4f or more. And you want to end up with 20 cichlids in a 75G to manage aggression.

Do not save fry from this tank for any species (the strawberry will spawn with the lithobates since he does not have his own females) and do not sell or rehome any of the yellow labs.

Sounds like a workable tank to me.


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## Drew31 (Feb 16, 2018)

Thanks again. I thought my 4 was a little low. Went a slightly different direction after reading and reviewing the cookie cutters and thinking. I used the Mbuna 75G cookie cutter where it has you "Pick 4"...but instead went a pick 3. Went to LFS this morning and returned 3xWhite Labs & the Ahli. Got a little store credit for them which was nice.

Keeping the Lithobate & Strawberry for now as stand alone males. I'll monitor and if I have to re-home for store credit I will. Instead of more Lithobates, I got 6x Iodotropheus sprengerae (Rusty) 2xAcei to bring my total to 6. So my stock now looks like this...

1xStrawberry Male
1xLithobate Male
6xYellow Labs (2 are fry that could be hybrids with the whites)
6xAcei
6xRusty
5xMultipunctus

Gives me 20 on the nose and I'm just going to monitor aggression as everyone matures.

Oh, and regarding the fry. Correct, none of the fry are leaving the house. I'd prefer if I don't have any make it, but we'll see. If I end up with Rusty or Acei fry, do I have the same concern about cross breeding as I did with the labs? Guess what I'm trying to understand is the fry concern only with the labs in my tank or do I need to hold on to Acei and Rusty as well? The whole fry thing is very new to me.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Now it is only with the labs. You can't sell or rehome the adults either. The 2 babies could be hybrids. Once they grow up you won't be able to tell which is which.

You might find your lithobates colors down with the more aggressive mbuna in the tank.


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## Drew31 (Feb 16, 2018)

DJRansome said:


> Now it is only with the labs. You can't sell or rehome the adults either. The 2 babies could be hybrids. Once they grow up you won't be able to tell which is which.
> 
> You might find your lithobates colors down with the more aggressive mbuna in the tank.


Got it. So unless I re-home the fry into a separate tank in my house now while I can tell the difference, all yellow labs are mine forever.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yep. Or you have to think about euthanization.


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## Drew31 (Feb 16, 2018)

Thanks again (and to Iggy and others) with your patience with me on this one to get me to decent point.

I'm sure I'll have others over time, but one final question I'm thinking of. Let's use the Rustys as an example. I've got 6 juvies. Target is 1m:5f. So as they grow and color I'll begin to get an idea of how many of each I have. So let's say I end up with 3:3. I'd take 2 of the males back to LFS and get 2 more juvies and repeat the process until I get to the ratio I want? Is that the standard practice. I could also see buying something more mature where it's already sexed may work?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

We usually figure we will get 50% females so we buy twice as many unsexed juveniles as we want to end up with females.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

You could load up on more Rustys now, and work towards a nice ratio from the get go. Most hobbyists find the Acei are so laid back, that you can likely get away with multiple males. Just monitor them closely. And keep in mind they get really big, for an mbuna. I was just at my Dad's today and he has a male that's over 7."


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## Drew31 (Feb 16, 2018)

Thanks. That's helpful. I may see about adding a few more and monitoring.

Had a yellow lab that didn't make it. Tail fin all chewed up and looked like he got beat up good. I suspect the peacock but have no evidence. I noticed a lab chasing another one recently just a little bit so maybe that was it. It could be my inexperience and not monitoring the situation closely enough but it was very sudden where one day he looked a little leary. Didn't notice any aggression that day, but next day lab was done for. So something must have happened overnight. Again, I'm not noticing significant aggression during the day when I'm home and observing.

I have a thought to take the peacock out into a QT tank for a week or two. Then put him back in and see what happens. I've heard that help in some situations. Again, I don't KNOW that it was him, perhaps it was another yellow lab. No idea my sexes on those I have.

EDIT: For the record, if peacock is the killer and this is the 3rd one, obviously going to have to get rid of him if a QT situation doesn't work.


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## Kipnlilo (Feb 23, 2018)

I've ran into a lot of bullies in the last year. It's been my experience that once a bully, always a bully. I've tried the time out thing with with no success. Good luck though, I hope it works for you. If I were to guess, it's your (hybrid) Strawberry.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

It is hard to see aggression. It is easier to see where the fish hangs out in the tank. If they are occasionally lurking below the surface or behind filter intakes or heaters, those fish are being harassed...this is not a location they would choose if they were not being bullied.


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## Ralph493 (Dec 1, 2018)

DJRansome said:


> It is hard to see aggression. It is easier to see where the fish hangs out in the tank. If they are occasionally lurking below the surface or behind filter intakes or heaters, those fish are being harassed...this is not a location they would choose if they were not being bullied.


Identifying a fish being bullied and not seeing the aggression leaves the question of what action to take. Do you remove the bullied fish? Or try to find the aggressor and remove that fish?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Either can work. Removing the bullied fish keeps your tank healthy because he will not be sick and infect everyone else.

Removing the aggressor solves the problem.

It also depends which fish you want to keep. An aggressive fish can do well with other aggressive fish. I usually am trying to get the wimpy fish to color so I remove the aggressors.


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## Drew31 (Feb 16, 2018)

I had noticed the "hiding by the filter" with the other 2 fish so should have seen those coming and at that time, knew it was the strawberry.

This one happened more suddenly as I did not notice him being bullied until it was really too late. Again, hadn't noticed an aggressor on this one.

Strawberry seems not quite as aggressive (and a little out of place) with the new additions. I'm monitoring more closely though obviously can't watch 24/7. Kind of in a holding pattern. If strawberry acts up, I'll try time out in the QT. If that doesn't work, then I'll probably be getting a nice sized store credit.


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## Drew31 (Feb 16, 2018)

Well, an update here which has changed everything. Had an outbreak of diseases in my tank and many didn't make it. Without going into too many details, lost the Strawberry & the Lithobate. Things have stabilized and here is where my stock is now.

5xYellow Labs
3xAcei (1M:2F)
6xRusty - At least 3 females, looking like I may have 2 males in this bunch.
5xMultipunctus

Plan: 
(1) 3 more Acei...maybe try another male and 2 females and see how it goes.
(2)I know the reco has been to stick to the 3 species, but would really like to try a 4th if at all possible. Was looking at some of the cyno species and thought about adding 1m:3f of one of those. Kind of partial to the Afra Cobue but just thinking it through now.
(3) Not going to add any more yellows and the Rusty's I'll just see how things go as they mature.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

In a 75G 4 species with 1m:4f of each is a good plan. The cobue should be fine.


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## Drew31 (Feb 16, 2018)

Thanks. Still deciding on the Cobue but definitely looking at one of the Cyno. Would love to get a tad more red/orange. My rustiest/acei may be closer to 1:2 so will need to monitor. And no telling what my labs are...

Could add a few more females to help but my stock will start pushing closer to 25 (30 with multipunctus) so not sure if that's overkill or not.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Five of each makes 20...don't count Synodontis.


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## Drew31 (Feb 16, 2018)

Looking at the below as an option for 4th species. Would it be compatible with labs, rustiest, acei?

Labeotropheus Trewavasae Ochre Chilumba


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yes but stock 1m:7f as they can be aggressive.


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