# trying to see the positive in a sump



## somebody (May 13, 2014)

Hi guy n gals,
I'm posting today to ask for yalls assistance in helping me see the pros (and cons) in a sump for my 125 malawi mbuna tank. On one hand I'm all about the diy and money isn't an issue for the most part. I know a sump offers an aquarist the chance to increase their tank volume, among other things, and a lot of people on here haven't he thought twice of moving away from a sump. But on the other hand it just doesn't seem like it would really get all that tank filtered efficiently. I'm afraid of going through the hassle of switching from canisters to a sump and be disappointed in its positive effects. 
I'm looking for yalls input on the pros/cons, and experience, possibly reassurance, of those who have one. Sorry to say it just doesn't seem like an effective way to filter in comparison to the two 306 I got on now. I've read a bunch on setup and how to diy them and I have a pretty good design imo. To me it just seems like it only skims the top surface of the water and doesn't completely cycle all the water through. I know I can help it with wave makers and or discharge jets but is this really the most superior form of filtration? Debate.


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## somebody (May 13, 2014)

Sump design


http://imgur.com/ItlIIqp


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## Sparrow19 (May 31, 2013)

I have a sump on my 210g. But I also have 2 built in overflows, and they have inputs low, mid, and high. In my opinion the sump works just as good, if not better and requires a lot less maintenance. I have never owned a canister filter though, so I could be wrong on how easy it is. I have a custom built sump, so its a little larger and allows me to separate any fish that I need to. I also have my heater there, so its not in the main tank.

My father in law has a 210 gallon with a sump, but has the hang on the back overflow. So like you mentioned, its just at the top, but it works really well. He doesn't have any extra power heads or wave makers, just where the pump is putting water back in the tank. He's had this set up for as long as I remember, and it works great for him. He also has gravel, and has to vacuum it when he does larger water changes, but otherwise his water is very clear.


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## somebody (May 13, 2014)

Sparrow19 said:


> I have a sump on my 210g. But I also have 2 built in overflows, and they have inputs low, mid, and high. In my opinion the sump works just as good, if not better and requires a lot less maintenance. I have never owned a canister filter though, so I could be wrong on how easy it is. I have a custom built sump, so its a little larger and allows me to separate any fish that I need to. I also have my heater there, so its not in the main tank.
> 
> My father in law has a 210 gallon with a sump, but has the hang on the back overflow. So like you mentioned, its just at the top, but it works really well. He doesn't have any extra power heads or wave makers, just where the pump is putting water back in the tank. He's had this set up for as long as I remember, and it works great for him. He also has gravel, and has to vacuum it when he does larger water changes, but otherwise his water is very clear.


I'm not tracking on your low, mid, high inputs. If it overflows into your overflow box in your tank isn't it still pulling from the surface?

I plan on drilling my aquarium so it won't be a hob overflow. And I'm going to use 1 inch bulkhead ,possibly two, on either side, and pipes cause they are rated at, I think, 1100 gph or so gravity fed.


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## somebody (May 13, 2014)

somebody said:


> Sparrow19 said:
> 
> 
> > I have a sump on my 210g. But I also have 2 built in overflows, and they have inputs low, mid, and high. In my opinion the sump works just as good, if not better and requires a lot less maintenance. I have never owned a canister filter though, so I could be wrong on how easy it is. I have a custom built sump, so its a little larger and allows me to separate any fish that I need to. I also have my heater there, so its not in the main tank.
> ...


I just reread. It puts the water back in the tank st the low mid and high points. Duh......
that's a good idea didn't think of that


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## CichlidShizz (Dec 9, 2012)

With any setup, no matter what method of filtration you use, you want to minimize or eliminate any "dead spots" in the water flow in the tank with returns, power heads, etc to help keep your fish happy and healthy. That being said, If your concerned about a top drain overflow system used in conjunction with a sump, as long as you are minimizing dead spots it shouldn't be a problem as the current will help to keep your water turning over into your sump.

I don't have any scientific data to support this but my filtration seemed to show an improvement when I switched from canisters to a sump. Cleaning the filters is SO much easier with the sump too as well as water changes. I just gravel vac the amount of water I want to change and refill into the sump, I dial back the output on my return pump with an inline gate valve to match the input of the new water until it's full and I'm done. I should probably add that I premix treated RO water in hardware store garbage cans since my tap water's quality sucks, so if you are refilling water from tap straight to the tank that might not make much difference for you.


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## pelphrey (Apr 9, 2014)

Some people like filter socks some don't. Just wanted to throw that out there. Also bio balls are made to be wet/dry. You could replace them with ceramic media instead and lower or just raise the tray for the bio balls and lower the water level in the sump.

I am in the process of setting up a 90 gallon tank with a 30 gallon sump. I went this route for multiple reasons. 1: its easy to customize 2: easy to clean 3: cheap compared to 1-2 canisters 4: keep equipment out of the tank 5: the middle chamber will be big enough to temporarily hold trouble makers and with my baffle setup and the correct sponges I could possibly keep fry in the middle chamber.

What appealed to me the most is the fact that I can leave my system running and take the foam out and clean it or even replace it without any hassles. Another big thing for me is the fact I have a fluval 306 on my 55 gallon. Once the 90 is running the 55 will stay empty and the 306 won't be running. I have enough room in my sump to house a ton of bio balls and ceramic media. So when the day comes that I need to start my 55 my ceramic media is cycled.

I also don't know anyone personally in the hobby. But if I do run into someone starting a tank I have cycled media so they get off to a good start!


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## somebody (May 13, 2014)

I'll keep that in mind cichlidshizz but I did plan on doing some sort of jet system. I like the whole undergravel jet idea but being from Southern louisiana hurricanes hit us and when the power goes out I'd be afraid of siphoning Back into my sump through them. I know there are check valves I can put inline but in my line of work you learn not to trust stuff like that.thanks for your input.

Pelphray, 
I'm going with bio balls mainly because what else is there? I'm thinking of doing a lava rock/ natural gravel mixture coupled with low density foam. I guess my picture ain't working but a pre filter sock is on the design as well. 
Thanks for the feedback.


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## joescaper1 (Feb 14, 2013)

Use in tank powerheads to operate your jets.

Joe


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## CichlidShizz (Dec 9, 2012)

somebody said:


> I'll keep that in mind cichlidshizz but I did plan on doing some sort of jet system. I like the whole undergravel jet idea but being from Southern louisiana hurricanes hit us and when the power goes out I'd be afraid of siphoning Back into my sump through them. I know there are check valves I can put inline but in my line of work you learn not to trust stuff like that.thanks for your input.


I'm here in the FL panhandle and grew up in south Fl so I know your concern for power outages all to well. Luckily I haven't had to endure any long term power outages with my tanks yet, but I still worry about it when it will happen... Especially now that hurricane season is here again, but my worries are focused more on temperature and water movement/filtration than an overflow issue.

For the jet system, if your piping comes in through the top of the tank instead of through a bulkhead, you can drill a small hole in the pipe just above your water line. In the event of a power outage, the hole will act as a syphon break. I use an inline check and the pin hole method for extra protection incase one were to fail somehow but have also had each set up used alone without issue. The important thing to do with a sump too, is to test a power outage condition to see where your water level drains back to when the pump shuts off to make sure the sump won't overflow. You'll also want to test to make sure your sump is filled to a level that if in the unlikely event your overflow were to clog and the pump dry runs, the water level is low enough so that the tank itself can't overflow either. You can also position the intake for the pump in the sump up higher to help make sure that if the dry run condition occurs, your still not going to overfill your tank.


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## somebody (May 13, 2014)

CichlidShizz said:


> somebody said:
> 
> 
> > I'll keep that in mind cichlidshizz but I did plan on doing some sort of jet system. I like the whole undergravel jet idea but being from Southern louisiana hurricanes hit us and when the power goes out I'd be afraid of siphoning Back into my sump through them. I know there are check valves I can put inline but in my line of work you learn not to trust stuff like that.thanks for your input.
> ...


Well I must be doing something right cause I thought of/planning on raising the pump. If my calculations are correct then only about two gallons will be pumped back in that case and the water level i maintain in my tank leaves about 4 gallons of room so I should be good. I guess now I'm gonna try an ugj system now that you twisted my arm enough


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## Sparrow19 (May 31, 2013)

somebody said:


> somebody said:
> 
> 
> > Sparrow19 said:
> ...


The overflows have slits that draw water up from each level and drains down into the sump. My pump then runs back up through the same overflow and jets in at 4 places of which I can adjust. Here is a picture, if you look close you can see the slits in the overflow.


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## CichlidShizz (Dec 9, 2012)

Glad we could give you that little extra push you needed!

Do let us know how it turns out, I couldn't quite be satisfied with the ugj system I was going for on my latest set up, so I ended up running black PVC across the back and side of the tank just an inch or so above the sand bed and drilled holes angled towards the overflow side. It works great for flow in the tank and keeps all the waste easily accessible so I don't have to struggle to siphon it out from those hard to reach areas.


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## somebody (May 13, 2014)

Sparrow if the overflow pulls from low middle and high part of the aquarium how do you deal with power outages? Wouldn't the tank drain all the way to the lowest point it's drilled at? Or is there another baffle inside the overflows that only allow it to go down to a certain point?


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## pelphrey (Apr 9, 2014)

somebody said:


> Pelphray,
> I'm going with bio balls mainly because what else is there? I'm thinking of doing a lava rock/ natural gravel mixture coupled with low density foam. I guess my picture ain't working but a pre filter sock is on the design as well.
> Thanks for the feedback.


There are a ton of ceramic media options instead of bio balls. I'm personally going with both bio balls and ceramic media. Ceramic media would probably cost a little more when you factor in quantity VS bio balls. I don't think I'll have a problem. If I do I'll remove some of the bio balls. I am filtering a 90 gallon tank, with the bio balls and ceramics I could probably filter a 200 gallon tank.


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## somebody (May 13, 2014)

pelphrey said:


> There are a ton of ceramic media options instead of bio balls. I'm personally going with both bio balls and ceramic media. Ceramic media would probably cost a little more when you factor in quantity VS bio balls. I don't think I'll have a problem. If I do I'll remove some of the bio balls. I am filtering a 90 gallon tank, with the bio balls and ceramics I could probably filter a 200 gallon tank.


I really didn't even think about ceramic rings until you said something. Well since we are on the subject of sump filteration, could I use coral base rock (dead live rock) and cycle it with the tank/sump and create a freshwater live rock?
I know it will increase ph/kh/calcium but I run an 8.2 out the faucet and I think my crushed coral just buffers it. When I convert to sand would the base rock continue the buffering? I read somewhere it would but I think it was a marine forum.


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