# Guys, I'm going to build a DIY sump!!! But....



## PauloSilva (Apr 17, 2006)

I have a few questions for the pros first.

I have a 125g tank that I got for a great deal brand new. It's not drilled and I don't want to dink around with syphon overflows so I've decided to drill my tank using a glass-holes kit rated at 1500gph. The potential for cracking the glass certainly exists but it's a risk I'm willing to take.

My entire desire for a sump revolves around not having any epuipment inside my tank (beside the overflow and return) which can be properly hidden by painting the background black and having a black overflow and returns. This setup is going in a rec-room and I would like it to be nice. Secondly, I don't want multiple HOB's or Canisters, I want 1 filter with some serious flow.

My plan is to use a 40g or so tank and do some glass baffles. I would like to achieve all MECHANICAL and all BIOLOGICAL filtration within this sump. Now, I've seen alot of sumps driven towards biological filtration but I'd like to adequetly achieve the best of both worlds. So what do you recommend for mechanical? Any luck with filter socks, polyfill? Do you think brillo pads for doing your dishes would be good for bio filtering? They seems like they have alot of surface area and scrubbies are hard to find. What is the advantage of having your bio-media partially submerged versus fully submerged? Is it the oxygen?

I plan on using either a mag 12 or mag 18 return pump. It will have to push about 5' of head, plus I plan to go up and over the tank with the returns so there will be some losses. I'm leaning towards the 18 with excess water diverted back to the sump. Has anyone used the clear vinyl tubing for return piping. Solid pvc seems like a hassle to me, but I will do it if it has benefits over flexible products.

So I guess my final question would be, what kind of sump design will allow for the best of both worlds, and will my sump alone provide adequate filtration for my entire tank?

Thanks alot for reading.

PS... I have done some research on sumps. Most stuff I found was for salt setup. Most of the stuff I saw seemed like it lacked in mechanical filtration capability.


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## moto_master (Jun 23, 2006)

I believe that your sump will be enough filtration for your tank. 
I used the clear tubing for my return. It doesn't stay clear; the inside gets covered with crud. It wants to be rolled up so it's hard to run it straight up from the pump and to the tank, so if you chose to get it, buy an extra foot or two so that it can bend how it wants. And it's hard to mount to the top of the tank, safely.
For Mechanical filtration, I used poly fill in my sump and I stuffed it in the final chamber all around the pump. There's a potential of some strands getting sucked into the pump so I put the pump inside a fine net. You'll have to change out the poly fill as it will get caked with crud.
I believe the purpose of having media setting out with water trickling over it is to allow a lot of oxygen to get to the bacteria. I personally don't think oxygenation is a problem, I believe it's plenty oxygenated after it flows down into the overflow, and then down the tube.
I don't know any thing about the brillo pads.
I think more flow is better, unless it's making a cyclone for the fish...


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## PauloSilva (Apr 17, 2006)

Moto_Master

Thanks alot for your very detailed response. I like the polyfill idea. I may try it inbetween some baffles.

The mag 18 pushes around 1800 gph at 0'. I'll guess that at around 5' it may be 1500-1600 plus some frictional losses so I think it will be close to what my overflow is rated at.

Another question is if anyone has tried the Glass-holes products and if anyone has had success drilling their tank?

Thanks again.


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## dacjr (Feb 12, 2010)

Just a thought......if you can't find scrub pads, I've read (on this site) about people using those scrunchy things that are used for showering. Probably less than a dollar each at your local dollar store.


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## fish (Apr 25, 2003)

I used the braided clear tubing. It's supposed to be stronger.

BTW, most tanks if not all new tanks use tempered glass on the bottom, which means you can not drill it. Check that the back/front glass is not. The manufacturer should be able to tell you.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

The mag 18 pushes 1200 gph @ 5' head. You need to use 1" or larger piping. Use spa flex over clear tubing. Even the braided lets in enough light for algae to start growing and then when you restart the pump you will get a shower of it into the display tank.

Consider using filter socks, get two or more and keep one wet always ready to swap out the dirty one.


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

im using 40g sump for my 125g as well.
make sure you leave enough space in the return chamber to accomodate evaporation.
i made this mistake and had to add another plexi to be a "top off" chamber.
it worked out for me since i was going to this anyways with a bucket but it looks better within the sump. as for mechanical filtration i just used a 10x10x4" tupperware. this traps most of
the waste before it goes to the biofiltration.
i also made a bag with window screen for the scrubbies so that i can 
easily remove them when i need to clean the waste under them.


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## PauloSilva (Apr 17, 2006)

fish said:


> I used the braided clear tubing. It's supposed to be stronger.
> 
> BTW, most tanks if not all new tanks use tempered glass on the bottom, which means you can not drill it. Check that the back/front glass is not. The manufacturer should be able to tell you.


My plan is to drill the back of the tank. This pane is not tempered.



fox said:


> The mag 18 pushes 1200 gph @ 5' head. You need to use 1" or larger piping. Use spa flex over clear tubing. Even the braided lets in enough light for algae to start growing and then when you restart the pump you will get a shower of it into the display tank.
> 
> Consider using filter socks, get two or more and keep one wet always ready to swap out the dirty one.


hmmm... 1200 gph. It has a 3/4" outlet so I would need a 3/4 to 1" reducer immediately after the pump? I plan on using a Y to split the flow to a spray bar and a nozzle. Should I buy 1x1x1 Y? and reduce to 3/4 after the Y? What is the importance of keeping the sock wet?



mel_cp6 said:


> im using 40g sump for my 125g as well.
> make sure you leave enough space in the return chamber to accomodate evaporation.
> i made this mistake and had to add another plexi to be a "top off" chamber.
> it worked out for me since i was going to this anyways with a bucket but it looks better within the sump. as for mechanical filtration i just used a 10x10x4" tupperware. this traps most of
> ...


Do you have any pics of your sump that you could share? Did you fill the tupperware with poly fill? Making a bag for the bio seems like a brilliant idea.

Thanks everyone.


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

i use polyfill in the tupperware.
heres the link. 
read them so you can have an idea of the problems that i encounter and hopefully 
make a better one.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... c&&start=0


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

PauloSilva said:


> hmmm... 1200 gph. It has a 3/4" outlet so I would need a 3/4 to 1" reducer immediately after the pump? I plan on using a Y to split the flow to a spray bar and a nozzle. Should I buy 1x1x1 Y? and reduce to 3/4 after the Y? What is the importance of keeping the sock wet?


Yeah use as little 3/4" tubing as is necessary and you will get the most volume outta that pump.

The socks last longer and are easier to maintain if you don't let them dry out.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

PauloSilva said:


> PS... I have done some research on sumps. Most stuff I found was for salt setup. Most of the stuff I saw seemed like it lacked in mechanical filtration capability.


Salt set ups rely on skimmers for mechanical removal of stuff. Freshwater tends to rely on partial water changes to mechanically remove detritus and dissolved wastes. Mechanical removal with pads, socks, etc. require frequent maintenance, several times a week if not daily or the mechanical will become biological. Even with the best of intentions, it's hard to accomplish this long term, unless you are tending to artificially raised angelfish or discus fry, Then you have no choice but to mechanically remove wastes more than once a day.


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## PauloSilva (Apr 17, 2006)

Mcdaphnia said:


> PauloSilva said:
> 
> 
> > PS... I have done some research on sumps. Most stuff I found was for salt setup. Most of the stuff I saw seemed like it lacked in mechanical filtration capability.
> ...


So what exactly are you saying? Are you saying not to try and mechanically remove detritus via the sump and just wait until you can do a vac or partial WC? What's the solution here? I have a hard time believing that if the water ran through a container of poly-fill that this would have to be maintained on a daily basis. Weekly yes, but I am willing to due the regular aquarium maintenance once a week including a water change and the cleaning or replacement of mechanical filtration.

I'm thinking now I may go with a 55g sump. This may seem like overkill but I can get a 55g for free from a buddy and I like mel_cp's idea of having a location for fry/growout and/or a place to keep holding females. I havent quite figured out how I would keep a fish from going over the baffle into the return chamber. I may try to silicone some fish netting or some type of screening to the top of the baffle.

Thanks for the responses everyone.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

PauloSilva said:


> So what exactly are you saying? Are you saying not to try and mechanically remove detritus via the sump and just wait until you can do a vac or partial WC? What's the solution here? I have a hard time believing that if the water ran through a container of poly-fill that this would have to be maintained on a daily basis. Weekly yes, but I am willing to due the regular aquarium maintenance once a week including a water change and the cleaning or replacement of mechanical filtration....


 If you remove the mechanical filter weekly, then much of the mechanically captured material will have begun to break down and dissolve into the water or be biologically changed from one state to another. Daily will work and every other day is enough except in fry tanks. Some, like artificially raising discus fry, may require mechnical removal as much as five times a day, until the fry get a little larger and can be weaned on to baby brine shrimp. The less frequently the filter "sock" is changed, the more biological fitration is going on, and the less mechanical removal happens. Most people tend to come to rely on biological filtration and partial water changes, but I don't make any predictions about you.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

PauloSilva said:


> Are you saying not to try and mechanically remove detritus via the sump and just wait until you can do a vac or partial WC? What's the solution here? I have a hard time believing that if the water ran through a container of poly-fill that this would have to be maintained on a daily basis. Weekly yes, but I am willing to due the regular aquarium maintenance once a week including a water change and the cleaning or replacement of mechanical filtration.


I had my last sump set up using only a tupperware drip tray with a layer or three of poly fiber. My tank is mixed Hap mbuna so it is overstocked to keep the peace. What would happen is if I used one layer I could get a week tween cleanings but mid week the water collumn would show some particles, not acceptable. So I fold it into two layers and can almost get a week out of it before the water collumn degrades. Up it to three layers water stays clear all week but now the drip tray starts to overflow.

Live and learn. I tweaked the setup and use 100 micron filter socks. Water is very clear but I need to swap out mid week. I could prolly stretch a week out with 200 micron socks but I prefer the clear water collumn and it takes all of 1 minute if that to swap one out and another 5 minutes to clean the dirty one with a garden hose.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

I would like to see someone do this again and this time take pictures. At the time I saw it, never thought to photograph it, but a guy here built a sump to beat all sumps. He jackhammered out a big square in the concrete slab floor, dug down about four feet, and created a sump by lining the excavation with pond liner. The he built a multiple tank aquarium stand across the sump. Access was from the back in what was essentially another room.

It was not only amazing someone would think of this. It was amazing how well it worked. Finally I am still amazed at how someone could talk their landlord into letting them do this. The guy has great fish keeping and fish breeding skills, but that last skill is the one I would covet!


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## PauloSilva (Apr 17, 2006)

Mcdaphnia said:


> I would like to see someone do this again and this time take pictures. At the time I saw it, never thought to photograph it, but a guy here built a sump to beat all sumps. He jackhammered out a big square in the concrete slab floor, dug down about four feet, and created a sump by lining the excavation with pond liner. The he built a multiple tank aquarium stand across the sump. Access was from the back in what was essentially another room.
> 
> It was not only amazing someone would think of this. It was amazing how well it worked. Finally I am still amazed at how someone could talk their landlord into letting them do this. The guy has great fish keeping and fish breeding skills, but that last skill is the one I would covet!


Dude, your on drugs


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

i actually just finish installing screen on the baffles today.
prior to this i just had the screen hanging there and taped to the frame.
needless to say i lost 2 fishes because they managed to swim underneath
and landed on some polyfill between the baffles that were not completely 
submerged in water. 
hopefully this new screen works better. i had siliconed them in place with a small syringe.
there siliconed on top of both baffles so there's no way they swimming under there.
i hope none of the silicone made it in the water.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

PauloSilva said:


> Mcdaphnia said:
> 
> 
> > I would like to see someone do this again and this time take pictures. At the time I saw it, never thought to photograph it, but a guy here built a sump to beat all sumps. He jackhammered out a big square in the concrete slab floor, dug down about four feet, and created a sump by lining the excavation with pond liner. The he built a multiple tank aquarium stand across the sump. Access was from the back in what was essentially another room.
> ...


Sorry I don't have photos to back it up, but this was real. I'll ask around. Maybe someone I know has photos of it.


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## PauloSilva (Apr 17, 2006)

mel_cp6 said:


> i actually just finish installing screen on the baffles today.
> prior to this i just had the screen hanging there and taped to the frame.
> needless to say i lost 2 fishes because they managed to swim underneath
> and landed on some polyfill between the baffles that were not completely
> ...


Hey man I just noticed your from TO. I'm about 3 hours away. I plan to come to Toronto to buy all my stock. Can you recommend some stores with quality stock. I'm looking to stock with Haps and Peacocks. I've heard of Finatics but the guy won't send me a stock list and I don't want to just show up and pick from what he has.

Let me know if your new method of screening works out for you.


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## JSwan (Nov 9, 2009)

I built my own Wet/Dry out of a 40L recently for my 125 and it is working great :thumb: I use Poret for my mechanical filtration and bio balls for my bio filtration. I have always liked the power of a wet/dry to oxygenate the water. I see a large amount of people are going the cheep rout and buing various pot scrubbers and other things to use as media. I think this is a bad idea because those things can trap detritus and become nitrate factorys. The same can happen with bio balls however I find them much easier to clean. The way I build my wet/drys there is very little need to clean the bio balls maybe once every couple years or so, a good thrashing about in a bucket of tank water and your good to go. I like wet/drys because if you set them up right they are vey low maintenance. I use 2" 20ppi Poret to catch most of the debris before the water drips through my drip tray onto my bio balls any derbri/detritus that makes it this far will settle on the sump bottom and is very easy to siphon out during water changes. I use a Magdrive 18 to return the water through 2 1" returns plumbed through the bottom. Here is a pic:








By Jswan at 2010-03-10


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## JSwan (Nov 9, 2009)

Mcdaphnia said:


> PauloSilva said:
> 
> 
> > Mcdaphnia said:
> ...


 This idea of a sump dug out of concrete foundation sounds like a bad idea to me. Not only would you be potentally be weekening your foundation. I would think it would also cool you're water. 
I worked at a Aquarium shop in an old building the owner had plumbed one whole side of the store together consisting of 16 38gal, 10 29 gal, 8 55gal,. This was all gravity fed to the basement where there was a giant wet/dry setup with a reservoir built out of cinder blocks lined with a pond liner. There was little problem with heat loss because the whole store was heated to about 80 degrees. The resevoir was really cool because sometimes little fish would slip through the pipes and grow really fast. Every month or two I would take off my sock n shoes and wade through it trying to catch what I could good times :thumb:


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## Pali (Dec 22, 2009)

When you drill your tank, it's a good idea to take a small sheet of ply wood and pre drill that. Tape it to the bottom of the tank where you want your overflow, that will prevent the drill from slideing from side to side when you start drilling the glass.

I have seen people who did'nt do this and ended up with so uneven edges, that the bulkhead did'nt seal tight. I would'nt worry about drilling the hole if you got the equiptment, just be patient and let the drill do the work.

Good luck on the build

My 66 g sump (33g for fry)


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## PauloSilva (Apr 17, 2006)

JSwan said:


> I built my own Wet/Dry out of a 40L recently for my 125 and it is working great :thumb: I use Poret for my mechanical filtration and bio balls for my bio filtration. I have always liked the power of a wet/dry to oxygenate the water. I see a large amount of people are going the cheep rout and buing various pot scrubbers and other things to use as media. I think this is a bad idea because those things can trap detritus and become nitrate factorys. The same can happen with bio balls however I find them much easier to clean. The way I build my wet/drys there is very little need to clean the bio balls maybe once every couple years or so, a good thrashing about in a bucket of tank water and your good to go. I like wet/drys because if you set them up right they are vey low maintenance. I use 2" 20ppi Poret to catch most of the debris before the water drips through my drip tray onto my bio balls any derbri/detritus that makes it this far will settle on the sump bottom and is very easy to siphon out during water changes. I use a Magdrive 18 to return the water through 2 1" returns plumbed through the bottom.


You guys are giving me a ton of great advice.

How is the flow from the mag 18 after you split in two? What types of returns are you using? What do you think of lava rock as bio material?

Pali, this is exactly what I plan to do... at least to get the hole started. From what I can see the water enters the right side of your sump then goes down through the media and into the fry tank, flows over top the baffle into the left left side, trickles down and the return pump is submerged in the media. Is this correct? Could you elaborate more?


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## JSwan (Nov 9, 2009)

How is the flow from the mag 18 after you split in two? What types of returns are you using? What do you think of lava rock as bio material?

I think I am probably pushing around 450-550 G.P.H. out of each return more or less. They split again in the tank this is the overflow plumbing I have in the tank
[/url]https://www.petsolutions.com/Images.aspx?ItemID=15929251 I am glad I went with the 18 if I ...lidforum.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3878


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

JSwan said:


> This idea of a sump dug out of concrete foundation sounds like a bad idea to me. Not only would you be potentally be weekening your foundation. I would think it would also cool you're water.
> I worked at a Aquarium shop in an old building the owner had plumbed one whole side of the store together consisting of 16 38gal, 10 29 gal, 8 55gal,. This was all gravity fed to the basement where there was a giant wet/dry setup with a reservoir built out of cinder blocks lined with a pond liner. There was little problem with heat loss because the whole store was heated to about 80 degrees. The resevoir was really cool because sometimes little fish would slip through the pipes and grow really fast. Every month or two I would take off my sock n shoes and wade through it trying to catch what I could good times :thumb:


 Digging it out of a concrete foundation would be bad, but this was dug out a poured concrete slab, which has no structural contribution to the building. It is a good point though that you'd want this nearer the center of the building rather than near the outside. The ground around the sump becomes a heat sink and creates a very stable temperature in the system. Unless you were raising Gymnogeophagus that like it cool, keeping the sump away from the outside foundation would be something to remember. Also be sure you know where buried pipes and heating ducts are.


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## Pali (Dec 22, 2009)

PauloSilva said:


> Pali, this is exactly what I plan to do... at least to get the hole started. From what I can see the water enters the right side of your sump then goes down through the media and into the fry tank, flows over top the baffle into the left left side, trickles down and the return pump is submerged in the media. Is this correct? Could you elaborate more?


That is correct, the water flows over the overflow wall and into a "wet/dry" filter with a mix of floating "small" bio balls and heavy bio wheals (sinking), down into the right side of the tank. Flowing down thru several layers of different sized filter sponges, under that I have heavy bio wheals. They work great as both bio and mecanical filters, then it's going under the baffle into the fry tank. Now I have clay pipes and kenya rocks in the fry area (not in the above pic), over the 2nd baffle and again it go thru several layers of filter sponge. The pump is at the bottom of the left side and coverd with heavy bio wheals.

My sump is only running at 500 gal/h the rest of my flow is in the display tank from powerheads

Here is a pic of the pluming into the sump, it's not much to see tho










Here is a link to my journal, there is a DIY on the whole setup incl sump build Click Here

Looking forward to see what your coming up with, hope you can post some pictures late on

Cheers


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## bertolli (Aug 18, 2009)

Pali I just read your journal and you have some awesome skills, i wish i could make a setup that functional and sleek. I can't even imagine what your show tank looks like. Gorgeous trophs too.


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

the screen is working out great. 
no more **** going over the baffles and i'll just put the sponges on the 
other side of the baffles.


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