# Africans and South American cichlid together???



## swordgecko (Oct 13, 2010)

*Will african and south american cichlids mix? what do you think?*​
Yes they will mix736.84%No they will not mix1263.16%


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## swordgecko (Oct 13, 2010)

Ok, so i have been doing a TON of research on mixing african and south american cichlids. And from what i have read/watched/learned. You CAN mix african's and south americans together.
Some of you will be thinking that it wont work becasue the water info would be different but as you may know your fish will adapt to your water!
They say that the agression would be an issue. well if both types are semi agressive then they will both be semi agressive.

Now you may think different but truly i think that you can mix them together, and i just want to hear what other people have to say about this.

Im +1 for mixing.


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## gus211 (Sep 21, 2009)

Well to answer ur question? Can it be done yes. Would I recond it no!


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*swordgecko*
mixing is possible. There are many potential issues that you might encounter when you opt to do some rule bending, but there is no "golden rule" saying you cannot mix a cichlids from South America and cichlids from Africa.


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## tranced (Jan 11, 2006)

imo dont buffer the water pH up to rediculous numbers and buy all the fish young. then you *might* get away with it


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

It is impossible and inaccurate to make blanket statements that "South American" as in all South American Cichlids, could be mixed with African, as in all african cichlids.

The additional issue, is that when many people are talking about "South American" cichlids, they are actually talking about Central American cichlids, that are somewhat different than South American.

There are "some" cichlids that have a degree of flexibility to their water parameters, and there are those that are fairly intolerant of water parameters that are too far from what their wild counter parts would experience.

Bottom Line, generalizations don't work very well when it comes to keeping cichlids.


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## toume (Oct 7, 2010)

Yeah, I agree with Fogelhund--specificity is key. This is always a huge debate in the hobbyist community (I've seen in get ugly  ), and there are always as many disaster stories as they are success stories (and many more so-so/it was OK, but. . . stories). Some species of SA and African can coexist (and CA for that matter), especially if the fish aren't wild caught.

However, there is no way I would put, say a Keyhole with Mbuna, just as you wouldn't put something gentle like a goldfish in with Convicts (<-and it's not just the temp. difference b/c goldfish can take warmer temps--up into mid 70s). For me, it comes down to temperament, for which you have to know what species you're working with. It's also important to consider the swimming speed of the fish (you want the chasee to be able to get away--don't have one good swimmer with a slow swimmer, since it'll just be a floating duck getting picked on) and also, something more subtle, is color--how easily can the weaker fish fade in with the surroundings? Are there plants to hide it, etc. Having the correct aquascape can really make the difference between failure and success. It's not just the water params that you have to consider <- though important (there are some SA species that live in hard/alkaline water naturally).

Also, I've seen many subtle differences within a single species as well, especially in regards to temperament. For e.g. Convicts: IME, they are not overly aggressive--they take over a large territory for breeding (and they're ALWAYS breeding :lol: ) and they beat up on the inhabitants, but in the 3 yrs that I've had several different mating groups of Convicts, I have never lost a dither fish. So, I'm either very lucky, or the Cons that I've kept have just been milder (despite their very active and overprotective parenting instincts). However, many people on this forum have had awful/frightening experiences with them--calling them little devils...So even when discussing how specific species interact, you can only speak of the *typical temperament* and cannot definitely say for certain how they will react to each other.

So, I think it's very possible for the meticulous and cautious fish keeper to achieve coexistence. I would not recommend it though, as it causes many more headaches than it's worth IMO. That said, if you have two species you're in LOVE with....why not try it? Just be aware that you might lose your precious (and possibly expensive) fish.

Just my 2c.


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## swordgecko (Oct 13, 2010)

I really appreciate you r 2 cents.

i also appreciate that everything you guys said 

Now when uhhh you say there temper would get in the way... will africans and south americans work together if there is enought hiding places, and their temper is around the same?

And another question i have is... If like dwarf african's and dwarf south americans were together and they both had barly any agression twords other fish do you think they will be able to mix, even with hiding places?


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

swordgecko said:


> If like dwarf african's and dwarf south americans were together and they both had barely any agression twords other fish do you think they will be able to mix, even with hiding places?


Still way too general a question. E.g. saulosi won't be a good mix in with Rams.

I have seen some odd mixes work... cacatoides in with African Peacocks. I'd never recommend it, but the keeper did it perfectly  funny thing is, I can see how and why it worked.

Peacocks will eat smaller fish, but cacatoides are just too large to fit in their mouths. Cacs won't go near such a large fish... end result, the two species learned how to ignore each other as an absolutely foreign element. When I used to watch his tank for some time, the cacatoides sure stayed well away from the larger aulonacara who, in turn, ignored the cacs as neither food nor competition.

That is what you get into with mixing of lakes/continents/ species. Most questions will be met with a no because it is nearly impossible to go through the scenario in detail in one's mind to see if it could work. Chances are always very high that you overlook an important detail that would make it a bad choice.


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## swordgecko (Oct 13, 2010)

That is awesome, lol fish i guess are smart 

Ok like you said the e.g. saulosi would mix with rams.
I have rams, what africans or other cichlids do you think could possobly go with rams?


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*swordgecko*
I don't think any African cichlid (Rift lake nor riverine) could or should be mixed in with Rams. 
I don't even really need to ask if you mean German or Bolivian rams. IMHO, they are too gentle in nature to take the punishment that is likely.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Well... it does depends on tank size. If we were talking about a Pelvicachromis taeniatus pair, in with some rams in a 6ft long aquarium, it could probably work.... but what you can mix, and can't mix, depends on exactly which species we are talking about, and the dimensions of the aquarium.


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## toume (Oct 7, 2010)

I would be very careful mixing with rams...only because, IME, they are very delicate and sensitive to tank changes. With my Africans, I am continually rearranging the tank, doing huge water changes, and removing/adding different fish (b/c of aggression issues).

Now, maybe not all people's experiences with rams match this, but I am very careful to not overly rearrange the ram tank. I did once--wanted to add more sand, so I took everything (including the fish) out, put in sand, and put everything back (some plants/decorations returned to their original place, others didn't). My rams wouldn't eat for a week. I really thought that was it for them. They recovered slowly, but it really gave me a heart attack.

Also, rams are one fish where attention to water params affects their color. You can keep them at 82d F if you want to mix with community fish like tetras, cories, etc.; however, they really do best at 84+. And my first set of rams adjusted fairly well to my hard/alkaline water, but they refused to breed no matter what I tried. As an experiment, I got another male and 3 females in a separate tank with bottled water (peat moss in the filter and oak leaves in the tank)--they spawned in a yr (they were also less often to show stress colors and had a much purer/brighter color)...so...rams are sort of an exception to the rule (and there always is one).

If you're really interesting in mixing continents, I would pick something healthy from CA/SA, something much bigger than rams (who really only live a few yrs, so I'm less likely to try things that might stress them out). Maybe a green terror, jack dempseys, or convicts...these are more pushy fish and much more hardy (they also seem to be more tolerant in their water params IME--my GT and cons get water from the tap 8.0-8.4 pH). I would also agree that a larger tank would be required (I'd say at least a 5ft tank). I mean, you don't have to, but giving the fish more room to move/escape/avoid each other, like Fogelhund was describing, sounds like a smart idea.


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## torin32 (May 24, 2010)

Hmm well this again who would have thought 83% not in favor. I layed of this topic after i started a thread on this lol. Well nice to see 83% of people use common sense.


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## swordgecko (Oct 13, 2010)

ok well i guess it is not at all reccomended but thanks guys for helping me answer my question. i guess if i do want to get african cichlids i will ge a new tank and get them


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

torin32 said:


> Well nice to see 83% of people use common sense.


83% of respondents to a poll voted to say that they wouldn't mix... they know that there can be problems, and they opt for the safest route possible. Commendable...

that doesn't mean the 17% don't have common sense. Don't be so arrogant. :roll:


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

I agree about the need to specify which species you are talking about. But usually when someone is talking about mixing, it is mbuna with CA's or Green Terrors. And they can usually be mixed well, if the tank is large enough, and the decor is set up correctly.

But, there are other uncommon mixes that will work.

About 12 years ago, I traded a C. Borleyi "yellow fin" trio to a friend for a "true Green Terror" that was in his 150g SA tank with Severums, SD's and some tetras. He still has the Borleyi in his tank. They are huge now, and very peaceful. He feels they make better tankmates for the others than the GT (not surprising to me). Unfortunately, I lost that GT to a completely psychotic H. Carpinte.

I've also mixed Tanganyikans (Julidichromis Regani and A. Compressiceps) with Firemouths before. They did well together with 1 pair of each in a 75g.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

oldcatfish said:


> usually when someone is talking about mixing, it is mbuna with CA's or Green Terrors. And they can usually be mixed well, if the tank is large enough, and the decor is set up correctly.


I agree.

Like has already been mentioned, the particular species chosen and the size of the tank (as well as many other factors/variables). No different then any other cichlid tank.

Disaster or success? You could have either, just like you can in an all African, all S.A. or an all C.A. tank. But if you mix fishes of vastly different temperments in small tanks, your chance of success is fairly slim. Occasionally there are exceptions, and things that shouldn't work, or you wouldn't expect to work, does.

As far as S.A. with African I've mixed oscars, green terrors, red terrors, severum, chocalate cichlid, festivum, angelfish, at one time or another with the following Africans: Tilapia mariae, Tilapia zilli, Tilapia buttikofferri, Oreochromis mosambicus, jewel cichlid, humphead cichlid, various mbuna, peacock and haps, Haplochromis burtoni (and other Victorian-like cichlids). Of course not every possible combination of these species :lol: but quite a few.Mostly working out well, though not everything. peacocks never did well in my tanks, but that was mostly due to aggressive mbuna. I definately had some "friction" between male C.A. and male tilapias, though in general, somewhat less so then I have encountered amongst male C.A. ----but that is C.A., not S.A.

Also, not only the species involved and the tank size, but also the circumstances involved are important. For example: I had male/female of both Tilapia zilli and oscars in a 6 ft. 180 gal. (6' X 2' x 2').For well over a year it worked more then fine and could have likely worked fine for many years, IMO. The male T. zilli was very dominant but never harrassed the oscars. The T. zilli layed eggs once, though it was unsuccessfull ----not to much aggression directed towards the oscars as the salvinis were their main rivals. Anyways, I had enough fish in this tank and wanted to breed oscars again, so I removed them and placed them in their own 100 gal. ( 4' X 2' X 21"). A couple months went by and the oscars spent all day cleaning their rock, but no eggs! In the meantime the male T. zilli began chasing the female T. zilli excessively in the 180 gal. In hindsight I should have used a devider, temporarily, but I opted to remove the female T. zilli and put her in with the oscars. I added 2 JD, 1 yellow lab and a pleco to try and make it into a community. But I would describe it as a very disfunctional community tank :lol: With in 24 hours the female T. zilli claimed over 3/4 of the tank and was pushing for more. She never stopped and wasn't going to until she owned the whole tank. The other tankmates were completely ignored by the oscars and T. zilli; as if they did not even exist. Soon the male oscar stopped trying to stand up to the female T. zilii and it became a war between the much larger female oscar and T. zilli with the male oscar sometimes getting chased back and forthe from bothe areas. I was pretty much ready to try and re-introduce the female T. zilli back with the male, or if that didn't work out, the oscars back into the larger tank. I came downstairs one morning to find the canopy inside the tank and the female T. zilli dead on the floor. I didn't actually see it happen but I suspect that the oscars were jumping out of the way of her charges and nocked the canopy into the tank. Spooked, the female T. zilli probabbly jumped out right after.The reasonn I supose this is because over the last few days prior to this, the oscars had hit the canopy a number of times trying to dodge her charges.

Two different tanks. Some of the same fish. Differrent outcomes. Is T. zilli compatible with oscars? You can draw different conclusions from either community. Could 2 oscars, 1 female T. zilli, 2 JD, and 1 yellow lab have worked in the larger 6 ft. 180 gal. Possibly, but probably not the way I went about it introducing the female after the oscars were the lone occupants, owning the whole tank. Oscars worked fine with the male T. zilli in the larger tank, but that was only because they were never competitors for territory and would have never been anything other then subordinates.


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## swordgecko (Oct 13, 2010)

Bernie i read your first paragraph appreciate it havent read it all dont rlly have time yet  but i will asap


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

What I am really trying to get at, with my examples in my last post, is that there are a lot of factors/variables involved in the success or failure of any cichlid tank.

Tank size and the particular species chosen are most important but there are always a lot of other factors/variables involved as well. Often people have problems associated with introduction and when it doesn't go well, they will blame their failure on mixing. An established tank can sometimes be tricky and difficult to add things to.

I can make up a rule as well: "Africans should never be kept with other Africans". The next time somebody has aggression problems in their mbuna tank, or one mbuna kills another, or their fish get stressed into bloat, I should say: "See, I told you so. You should never keep Africans with other Africans". :lol: :lol: 
Of course that would be silly, but from my perspective, rules about mixing , and the conclusions people often draw when things don't work out, are often just as silly.

Aquarists are often very hypocritical about mixing. They mix all kinds of fish that do not come from the same bodies of water, and then make a big deal when rift lake cichlids are mixed with other cichlids. Most C.A. cichlids, for example, come from different bodies of water, and even when they do, at least as adults, they often occupy different niches. C.A. kept with S.A. ---don't even come from the same continent! Even when fishes that come from the same body water are kept together in aquariums, they are quite often fishes that do not encounter each other in the wild or they occupy entirely different niches.


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## Hap44 (Sep 4, 2002)

Cichlids as a fish family can be found to occupy every available niche in one lake. So you can say Malawis should not be kept with Malawis if you are going to take a large predator with a small fish. It's a big group of fish and has many types and sizes.

If we look then at similar sized fish...

The South American/African 'rule' that has been talked about by many in the past and was taught to me as a youngster, was that the body language for 'I want to fight' and 'I want to surrender and think you're tougher' are directly reversed in the Old World vs New World cichlids. This then leads a fish who is surrendering to be beaten to death for constantly being perceived to be challenging. I think from having kept both, something can be said for this when you consider who 'takes the high ground'. I know with many of the New World cichlids I've kept, the aggressor will be higher in the water, bearing down on the other fish, seeking the other to 'show it's belly' buy turning side on and lowering it's self in submission. In the Africans I've kept (especially thinking back to the mbuna and julies) the aggressor seeks to 'get in under' the submissive fish and drive them upward into a corner. So putting those two together could lead to a total 'misunderstanding' incident happening.

Then we get to types of fish and lifestyle. New world cichlids just don't do crowded 'high rise' stocking like mbuna etc. Instead you get large pair forming and very territorial fish or very small dwarves that also like territory and seclusion.
Mbuna like being crowded, it's like that where they come from, keep them understocked and the numbers keep getting decreased as one individual becomes more and more hyperviolent due to lack of targets to vent his rage at.
Put a pair of territorial SA cichlids in a crowded mbuna tank and they will be subjected to constant stress of having multiple aggressive neighbours racing around and the SAs will exert themselves trying to drive them all off.

It's basically about 'can it work' vs 'is it optimum for my fish'.
Yes it can work, if the fish are the same size and not too violent to each other.
Is it optimum for my fish, I don't think it is, there are too many variables and chances for things to go wrong.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Hap44 said:



> The South American/African 'rule' that has been talked about by many in the past and was taught to me as a youngster, was that the body language for 'I want to fight' and 'I want to surrender and think you're tougher' are directly reversed in the Old World vs New World cichlids.


Yes, I,ve read and been told that too, since I was a young kid, but I don't buy it, one bit. Somebody's interpretation, but IMO, it's a load of bunk. Spent literally thousands of hours watching Africans interact with CA/SA over the span of 3 decades. They understand each other's aggressive signals all too well! The signals of showing belly as submission (Ex. SA/CA) and belly as aggression (Ex. mbuna) are accompanied with very different FIN SIGNALS and are easily understood by either. The two different belly signals are very different and I have yet to see it misunderstood by either.

Many Africans, such as mbuna, pocess a 'prolonged chase', and if a fish is just too fearfull, submissive or stressed , they will target it. Nothing to do, IMO, with mixed signals.

I can only think of one example where the submissive belly signal did not work well. And that was between a S.A. and C.A. Had an oscar that used to back up slowly and show a lot of belly to a red devil/midas and it got nailed hard for it every time! It just wasn't the 'right way' to act with an RD/midas. The 'correct way': Show only a little bit of belly and swim away. Most importantly, was to give the boss it's space and get the heck out of the way! Though that was the behavoir of two particular individuals in a 4 ft. 100 gal ----lot's of people of had success keeping these 2 species together, especially in larger tanks.

Funny how we raise the objection of different languages and of cichlids not understanding each other, yet many of us keep cichlid with non-cichlid ----- surely there is far more room for mis-understanding between cichlid and non-cichlid.


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## Hap44 (Sep 4, 2002)

bernie comeau said:


> Funny how we raise the objection of different languages and of cichlids not understanding each other, yet many of us keep cichlid with non-cichlid ----- surely there is far more room for mis-understanding between cichlid and non-cichlid.


I can certainly say here that cichlids, being smart, tend to pay most attention to what they believe to be other cichlids (which has certainly included other perciforms like anabantoids, tiger fish etc). And in those cases, yes I guess misunderstanding could also occur.

I can also imagine that the sardine cichlids of tanganyika or other very peaceful cichlids could happily co-exist with peaceful SAs (providing you could ensure water quality was suitable for both).

But most cichlid species are not peaceable. If you look at what the OP has been saying, he mentioned Rams, very small, very delicate. I'd be hesitant to mix them with other SA dwarves, let alone 'african cichlids', whatever that might encompass.


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## cichlid_kid96 (Nov 22, 2010)

i mixed sa with some africans and pretty much got bashed pretty bad on this one website people callling me a bad fish keeper and stuff i thought it was prett dumb


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