# CA with Africans



## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

I recently have had several requests for information regarding successfully mixing African cichlids with Central Americans. Rather than responding privately, I'll just post my method so everyone can see.

There are several ways that you can set up a succesful tank. I'll describe the two easiest scenarios for you, and you can choose which way you want to go with.

Scenario one...this looks better, but works the bestr if you can get a harem ( 1 male to 4+ females--up to 7 or 8 mbuna) of a single mild tempered, Malawi species. Labidochromis Caeruleus ( Electric Yellow Lab) or Pseudotropheus Acei are ideal for this. What you do, is put a large pile of rockwork (with lots of caves) on one end of the tank...you can use sections of PVC pipe hidden behind/under the rocks to make the caves. You then put a large piece of driftwood at the other end of the tank, with an open space of at least a foot in between. The mbuna will claim the rocks, and the CA will quickly learn that he'll be out-maneuvered over them...so he'll claim the driftwood area. The open space is important, so if in doubt, go larger than a foot. Don't be afraid to pile the rocks up as high as you want, as long as it's stable. Look at the pictures of Malawi tanks on you-tube and the profiles, and recreate that look in about 1/3 of the tank. This technique almost always works, if done correctly (I've actually never had it fail, and I've set up dozens of tanks this way).

Scenario two... this doesn't look as good, but works very well too. In this case, just spread a few caves (I try to put one for each mbuna, plus a couple more) throughout the tank. Don't pile any rock work up, you just one open space with caves spread about. Then select a few milder tempered mbuna of any species/sex. They will spread throughout the aquarium. The CA will be dominant and will keep the mbuna from fighting too much, but he won't be able to keep them all in their caves. He'll try at first, but will get tired of chasing the fast moving mbuna. The lack of rock work allows the CA to keep the upper hand. This scenario is a little trickier because you do need to avoid the most aggressive species of mbuna (they will eventually challenge your CA, and a 55g just isn't enough room for them anyway)...so do some research to know what to look for. In general, most mbuna with ANY body stripes (horizontal or vertical) may be too aggressive. Fish with a solid body color will be more likely to work out. Don't worry about the fin color, just the body stripes. Also, don't put more than 3 or 4 mbuna in the tank.

These are just two methods that work.


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## spankym13 (Nov 22, 2008)

Thanks for the info. So if i want a couple diff. Mbuna i need to go with the second? Or will the first work out? I have right now a big rock with random holes in to. Prolly 1.5' long and 1' tall. In the center of tank. Then one corner has a 4" pvc elbow behind a fake root/wood looking deal. Then the other corner has a tree truck shaped save.. with sand substrate


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Each male mbuna will claim a rock/cave. And the females of the more aggressive ones will too.

So, to have more than one species you would likely need to go more like the second method. But your current setup might work just fine...a lot of it depends on what Malawi species you choose. Can you post a picture of your current setup? If I can see it, I can give more specific suggestions?


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## spankym13 (Nov 22, 2008)

Ok, yes im at work now but will post one in 3-4hrs


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## smitty (May 7, 2004)

I would not do it because they require two different types of water. Putting them together will not cause death but I think there is better ways to raising them.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Quote "I would not do it because they require two different types of water. Putting them together will not cause death but I think there is better ways to raising them."

--Actually, the water conditions preferred by Malawi cichlids and Central American cichlids are very similar. The conditions preferred by CA's and many other fish that are commonly kept with them are much farther apart. For example, CA cichlids (which prefer, hard & alkaline water just like Malawi's) are often kept with Plecos, Silver Dollars, Synodontus catfish, or Giant Danios. All of those fish (except for a few of the dozens of Synodontus species) prefer neutral or acid water conditions.


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## spankym13 (Nov 22, 2008)




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## spankym13 (Nov 22, 2008)

That was when I had firemouths in the tank, they are no longer there, but the set up is just like you see it.. :fish:


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## jd lover (Mar 11, 2011)

im sorry but i rather suggest people to stock properly. while this idea can work anyone who is asking for stocking help are likely begginer and this idea isnt something a begginer should attempt.


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## Azedenkae (Apr 19, 2012)

To be honest I threw in red forest jewels with my american cichlids and bristlenoses and they're all happily swimming around. *Shrugs* Just sayin'.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Quote "im sorry but i rather suggest people to stock properly. while this idea can work anyone who is asking for stocking help are likely begginer and this idea isnt something a begginer should attempt."

---Unless you are trying to setup a biotope, then there is no "proper" stocking. Only a healthy and compatible setup. And if the aquarium has the proper decor and mild tempered Malawi cichlids are chosen, a beginner is going to have less aggression than with an aquarium stocked with only CA cichlids.

To spankym13, I'd probably rearrange the aquarium a little for better results. I'd move the big rock to one end, and have the larger driftwood piece at the other end. Put the PVC pipe in the middle, but closer to the big rock. Put some of the plants between the smaller driftwood and big rock to hide the pvc and create a line-of-sight break between the rock. Leave an open space between the two driftwood pieces. In reality though, if you don't add aggressive mbuna species, and only add a few, your current setup will probably be fine. You can always redecorate later. In fact, depending on your JD, you may need to add a couple of more pieces of PVC for the mbuna.


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## spankym13 (Nov 22, 2008)

Oldcat: Thank you so much for the advice, ill see what i can do with the aquascape.... Right now im checking out the LFS to see whats out there that is big enough right now it wont become food, i see alot of peacock,zebra,aceia,jewels,kenyi,bumblebee.


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## Elijah (Mar 30, 2011)

Sounds like an interesting concept, however I housed a kenyi with a pair of breeding convicts, and the kenyi beat them both up.


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## jd lover (Mar 11, 2011)

oldcatfish said:


> Quote "im sorry but i rather suggest people to stock properly. while this idea can work anyone who is asking for stocking help are likely begginer and this idea isnt something a begginer should attempt."
> 
> ---Unless you are trying to setup a biotope, then there is no "proper" stocking. Only a healthy and compatible setup. And if the aquarium has the proper decor and mild tempered Malawi cichlids are chosen, a beginner is going to have less aggression than with an aquarium stocked with only CA cichlids.
> 
> To spankym13, I'd probably rearrange the aquarium a little for better results. I'd move the big rock to one end, and have the larger driftwood piece at the other end. Put the PVC pipe in the middle, but closer to the big rock. Put some of the plants between the smaller driftwood and big rock to hide the pvc and create a line-of-sight break between the rock. Leave an open space between the two driftwood pieces. In reality though, if you don't add aggressive mbuna species, and only add a few, your current setup will probably be fine. You can always redecorate later. In fact, depending on your JD, you may need to add a couple of more pieces of PVC for the mbuna.


any begginer should stick to the basic and this is anything but a basic concept.


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## spankym13 (Nov 22, 2008)

First off im not a begginer, *** had tanks for a couple years now. Am i new to the idea of mixing cichlid breeds??? yes! And based on the thread everyone but oldcat is to.... How can u excell in something if you cant step outside the box and learn new things....


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## spankym13 (Nov 22, 2008)




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## spankym13 (Nov 22, 2008)

Oldcatfish, Is this more what your talking about?? I just moved it around after cleaning. I've not had a chance to add anything. U see my only 2 dithers I've got left... They will be relocated if and when cichlids are brought in....


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## Winston Smith (Jan 14, 2008)

I got this from the species profiles at this website:

JD:

PH: 7-8
Diet: Omnivore
Temp: 76-80

Yellow Lab:

PH: 7.8-8.6
Diet: Omnivore
Temp: 78-82

The only thing I would be concerned about is the JD beating up on the Yellow Labs. If you can manage that aggression issue I think Yellow Labs plus a Jack Dempsey would be a super sweet looking tank. Ignore the people who whine about mixing CA and African cichlids.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Quote "Oldcat: Thank you so much for the advice, ill see what i can do with the aquascape.... Right now im checking out the LFS to see whats out there that is big enough right now it wont become food, i see alot of peacock,zebra,aceia,jewels,kenyi,bumblebee."

---Stay away from the Kenyi and Bumblebee. They are both very aggressive Malawi species. I'd personally stay away from the Jewels too, but just because your JD will probably see them as mini-Jack Dempseys....otherwise they are compatible. Acei are perfect and depending on the species --the Peacock genus (Aulonocara) will work fine too. The OB morphs are hybrids between Aulonocara and OB Zebras, so they tend to be more aggressive than pure Aulonocara, but will usually work. The Zebras can work too, especially if you find females. Look for the red/bright orange ones with black blotches if you can find them (M. Estherae); they tend to have high ratios of female to male, so you are more likely to find females. The females(which are a deeper/brighter orange) are less territorial than males, but even a male isn't likely to challenge a larger JD. At least not out in the open.

If it were me, I'd probably choose the Acei and/or peacocks.

And your tank looks more like what I had in mind, since you re-decorated. It should work just fine, though depending on what species you choose, you may need to remove some of the plants. You probably won't need to though.

-----------Quote "Sounds like an interesting concept, however I housed a kenyi with a pair of breeding convicts, and the kenyi beat them both up."

I'm surprised that it took on a breeding pair, but not that it would challenge a convict individually. Kenyi's are one of the more aggressive mbuna available, and aren't suitable for a 55 gallon....even with other aggressive mbuna.

It still amazes me that so many aquarists think that you can't mix New World and Old World cichlids...and that comes from both sides. I used to think that too--until I tried it. I have a lot of experience with keeping and breeding African cichlids. Keeping CA's (or almost any other substrate spawning cichlid) with mbuna isn't that much different than keeping Haplochromines with them. You just have to take into account their natural habitats. Mbuna live very closely with rocks. In nature, they don't stray far from them, so if you leave some open space, your CA won't have to out maneuver them...and most mbuna have little desire to start a fight with a large powerful fish out in the open water. If you load the tank with rocks and mbuna, then they will have the upper hand. That's where most people go wrong. That, and choosing very aggressive mbuna for smaller tanks. I'll say it again...if done correctly, mixing CA's with Malawi cichlids usually results in less aggression than mixing CA's with each other. Of course nothing is 100%, because fish have individual personalities...but more often than not, they make very good tankmates.


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## spankym13 (Nov 22, 2008)

Oldcatfish, i cant thank u enough for your time.... Ill look at the acei in stock, and see about the peacocks. How many would u add at once?? And could i mix 1-2 of ea?


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

"Quote" Oldcatfish, i cant thank u enough for your time.... Ill look at the acei in stock, and see about the peacocks. How many would u add at once?? And could i mix 1-2 of ea?

--I wouldn't add any more than 3 or 4 fish, and you are better off adding all at once. Your JD will probably be very aggressive toward them for about a week or two, but then will mellow a bit. Just give each fish that you add a place to hide from your JD. You can mix the Acei with the peacocks....how many of each just depends on exactly what you get. If the peacocks available are OB or A. Jacobfriebergi, they'll be much more aggressive toward each other than toward the Acei. Your best mix is probably 1 peacock along with 3 Acei.


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## spankym13 (Nov 22, 2008)

Ok, yea the ob morph seem to be popular, if i dont get that. There a lota zebra also so would those mix with acei? And should i be tryn to sex them?


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## spankym13 (Nov 22, 2008)

Also wanted to ask, would a group of 4 demasoni work? Or is that to much agression??


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Quote "Ok, yea the ob morph seem to be popular, if i dont get that. There a lota zebra also so would those mix with acei? And should i be tryn to sex them?"

--There are OB morphs of a lot of mbuna species...even some Haps from Lake Victoria. The OB Zebra morph that I'm talking about is of M. Estherae, the "red zebra." Those will be very bright orange with black blotches....they kind of look like Red Devils from CA to someone unfamiliar with them. The other OB morph that would be ok is the OB peacock...of which there are a variety of colors.

With any Malawi cichlid, females will be less territorial/aggressive than males of the same species, so if you know how to sex them that would be great. All of either sex would make for a more peaceful tank, but even with a mix...your JD should keep things from getting out of hand. Just don't load the tank with Malawis, otherwise the JD will be overwhelmed by the number of them. Again, I wouldn't add more than about 4 fish. And don't save any hybrid fry if they breed...just leave them in the tank. The JD will eat most, but you may have an occasional one make it.

As to the small group of Demasoni....absolutely not. They are extremely aggressive toward each other, and are hard to keep in any group less than about 15....and even that, can be difficult. The good news is that they don't usually bother other species too much, so you could get one to mix with the other species.


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## spankym13 (Nov 22, 2008)

Perfect, ill try to get one dem. And some acei or peacock or zebra. *** always like acei. Im going to look in a bit. My JD Is hiding under that big rock deal so hope hes not claiming that and going to cause an issue..


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## spankym13 (Nov 22, 2008)

Well, have to wait till friday, everything the have is 2" or smaller, which im afraid to put in due to the jd size.....


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Quote "Perfect, ill try to get one dem. And some acei or peacock or zebra. I've always like acei. Im going to look in a bit. My JD Is hiding under that big rock deal so hope hes not claiming that and going to cause an issue."

--If each fish has a place to claim/retreat to, and as long as your JD has room to maneuver so that it can take on the African's head on....everything should be fine. Just remember that there will be a couple of weeks of adjustment/increased aggression no matter what. Just watch for any fish getting too stressed--hiding all the time and not eating, or getting really torn up. What usually happens is that the JD will keep the Malawi's hunkered down in their hiding places for a couple of days, except at feeding times. Then they'll start coming out a little to explore and the JD will try to catch them. They'll be persistent, and the JD will soon tire of trying to catch fish that are too fast for him. Within a few weeks, he'll likely be ignoring them, and at that point, any aggression that you will have will likely be among the Africans--and it shouldn't be much, if you choose peaceful species. The two great things about the "mixed cichlid" setup is that the African's add a lot of color, movement, & activity to the tank; and also the JD will display his dominant colors "just to remind them who's in charge."


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Quote "Well, have to wait till friday, everything the have is 2" or smaller, which im afraid to put in due to the jd size....."

--It can be a challenge getting fish that are large enough, but aren't the real aggressive ones. If your LFS can special order fish, they should be able to get larger Yellow Labs for you...they are fairly common.

Also, when you get your fish, post pictures....because sometimes mbuna get misidentified. I used to breed Malawi's as well as work at a LFS, so I'm pretty familiar with 
most of the commonly available species. Remember..avoid bars/stripes on the fish's body, if you don't know exactly what the fish is.


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## spankym13 (Nov 22, 2008)

Great yea,in my town fish are hard to get, our big stores are petsmart and petco so..... My other option is a pair of convicts, which the local guys have decent sized.. they refuse to do special orders tho..


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## reflexhunter (Jul 25, 2009)

spankym13 said:


> Great yea,in my town fish are hard to get, our big stores are petsmart and petco so..... My other option is a pair of convicts, which the local guys have decent sized.. they refuse to do special orders tho..


I think Dan Jennings lives in Colorado, he sells and brings in some very cool fish, got a pair of w/c Hypselecara temporalis very nice fish.


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## spankym13 (Nov 22, 2008)

Yea, im sure he is in denver, i live in grand junction....


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## spankym13 (Nov 22, 2008)

I hope by adding some mbuna to the mix it will draw out my JD. He was always out when he was smaller, now he just hides it a cave. And once in awhile swims across to the other side and back. He is very beautiful but i never see him so....


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

spankym13 said:


> I hope by adding some mbuna to the mix it will draw out my JD.(


I've been mixing CA with mbuna for over 3 decades. IMO and IME, more then likely it will liven up your tank, make your JD feel more comfortable and bring him out a lot more.

Most of my tanks have this mix (CA with mbuna) to some extant but i will use my 75 gal. with a breeding pair of sals from 2008-2009, as an example because i think it would be more similar to your tank and situation, then most of my other tanks.

http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z116/Bern-C/?action=view&current=nov25200875gal005.mp4

http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z116/Bern-C/?action=view&current=nov25200875gal004.mp4

http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z116/Bern-C/?action=view&current=nov25200875gal2008.mp4

http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z116/Bern-C/?action=view&current=nov25200875gal2009.mp4

http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z116/Bern-C/?action=view&current=nov25200875gal2007.mp4


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Male sal, very breifly, a couple times was placed in a tank by itself and is a very scared and spooked fish all by it's lonesome. Even the small light from the video camera is making him aprehensive in the videos. Like a mature JD, it really needs some outgoing tankmates to feel comfortable.

This tank was set up for about a year and a half. I moved and I shut down this 75 gal. (and also a 100 gal.) temporarily, weeks before I moved. I favoured the younger generation and gave this male sal to the LFS. I successfully introduced a smaller, younger male sal shortly before I moved and bred them to get fry as well. Male sal was over 3 years old and generally always kept with at least 1 mbuna in the tank. On a side note, the brownish color is quite accurate as to how the male sal at this time looked from about 15 feet away in the room, or more.....so the video is accurate in a way, in terms of capturing it's look. But how this fish looks from about 5 feet away or closer, the pictures more accurately capture it's coloration:










The Kenyi also bred in this tank on many occasions. The stock was: 1 male kenyi, 3 female kenyi, 2 female auratus, 1 common pleco and a pair of salvini. After a spawn the pair would break up temporarily. Male sal was generally too lazy to harass the female much during these times and was somewhat pre-occupied with the mbuna. In between spawns, the female sal would have to defend herself in an area from the male kenyi. It is not nessessary to stock such aggressive mbuna. It is my choice.....simply because I can. Breeding sals are very aggressive and very capable. Most schooling dithers would not survive long in this tank. Yellow labs will work just as well with a lot less aggression. The less aggressive mbuna are a much safer choice. Kept yellow labs them with sals in the past. They are sturdy and tough, though not as aggressive as some mbuna.


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## spankym13 (Nov 22, 2008)

Awsome, thank you so much for the reply... I love these forums, and the knowledge one gains from them. Im looking right now at 1 Demsonia, and 3 acei or zebra.....


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## spankym13 (Nov 22, 2008)

Or my other thought is a peacock and 3 Acei or zebra..


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Bernie...great videos. I hope everyone that reads this post watches them. In fact, I think that you should post them on the Malawi forum too, to debunk the myth that you can't mix. And I love how you have a pair of Sals with two of the more aggressive mbuna species.


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## spankym13 (Nov 22, 2008)

Best pic I could get of him this eve. he was out for a little while


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## spankym13 (Nov 22, 2008)

Also, I bought 3 Acei and 1Jacobfreibergi Peacock to add to his tank.... Problems is they are all around 1.5" so I put them in a 29gal I have set up as a grow out tank.... So hopefully they will grow quick!!!!!


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Quote "Also, I bought 3 Acei and 1Jacobfreibergi Peacock to add to his tank.... Problems is they are all around 1.5" so I put them in a 29gal I have set up as a grow out tank.... So hopefully they will grow quick!!!!! "

--Feed them twice a day and change 40 to 50% of the water twice a week for best results. Don't be too quick to add them to your main tank....JD's were once classified under the Nandopsis section of CA cichlids--that is the section of predatory fish.


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## spankym13 (Nov 22, 2008)

Yea ill for sure let them grow to atleast 3". Does the 40-50% water change twice a week help growth??


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

In my experience, yes...the water changes are a key ingredient to rapid growth. Also, in my experience, if you include small portions of a frozen or freeze dried mysis shrimp a couple of times a week, the fish will grow larger and faster.


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