# What's wrong with my fish?



## Shill (Mar 10, 2008)

We got 8 yellow labs last week. They are all roughly 1" - 1.5". They all seemed to be doing fine but tonight when I went to feed I could only find 7. Then we found the 8th looking emaciated in the front corner of the tank. His stomach looks sunken in and he doesn't respond. They always respond when I come to the glass and I can run my hand all around and he doesn't budge.

Any idea what he has and if I can save him?

I want to add that I haven't noticed anything weird. But a couple days ago one of my danio's (we cycled with 4) was found floating at the surface. He was somewhat torn apart so I have no idea what he died from.

BUT... I have been wondering what this "bloat" is because one of my danio's now has a belly that is protruding pretty far out and my labs seem a little bloated also. Maybe I can get a photo of the danio (this may be wishful thinking) and of my sick lab.

I did test the water and everything looks fine. Ammonia 0 - Nitrite 0 - Nitrate 20 - Ph 8.1 
45 gallon tank. Cycled for 2 weeks before adding fish last week. Did a 25% water change (the first water change) on Sunday.

We have rock, sand, live plants, and 1 small piece of driftwood. There are a few small terra cotta pots also (for the plants).

The fish eat flake food. Warbley's (sp?) Cichlid flakes and they also eat the Danio's flake food. At first they spit each other's food out but now they all share.


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## JDman (Apr 5, 2008)

hmmmmm...... i dont know wat to tell u... its beyond my expertice... did the yl's seem to pick on eachother? maybe it has gotten stressed to its limits? When u put him in the tank was it an extreme temperature change than the bag it was in? It could be shock? IDK man i hope it pulls through.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Any thready white poo?


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## Shill (Mar 10, 2008)

I haven't noticed any. This morning I went down and sat in front of the tank and watched for a while. The Danio that was fat last night (in that picture above) looks just like the other two today and they are all swimming around happy and chasing.

My labs look like they have a healthy fullness to them but they aren't abnormally wide. The lab to the right in the photo above is what they look like.

I did notice one of my labs (last night and tonight) swimming on the bottom of the tank and then every now and again dragging his side in the sand. Like he's scratching an itch or something. But there is nothing noticeable on him that would make me think he has ick.

My only indicators of something wrong is the dead Danio a few days ago, the sick guy who's still hanging out in the corner of the tank, and now the Lab that is dragging his left side in the sand.


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## Shill (Mar 10, 2008)

I want to add that the Danio in the photo above no longer has a fat belly. He looks normal and is acting normal.

One yellow lab is dragging his side in the sand on occasion. He'll just swim to the bottom, and drag and swim and drag and swim. Then he goes about his business.

They all eat, (except for the guy in the corner who won't move) all swim and I've noticed nothing abnormal about their poop. (Noticed is the operative word)


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

The dragging and swimming you're describing is called "flashing." It can be a sign of external parasites. Do any of your fish have little grains of what look like salt on them? If they do, you have ich and need to treat accordingly . . .


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## Shill (Mar 10, 2008)

Nothing on the skin that I can see. Is it possible that they have it but it just isn't visible yet? I noticed the dragging last night.


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## Xenoterranos (Mar 14, 2007)

Flashing can also be a sign of irritation from high Ammonia or nitrIte levels. Do a test and make sure your water paramaters are all in line (Ammonia 0, nitrIte 0, nitrAte Low)

edit:spelling


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

Another possible issue is internal paracites. While bloat is the name of the disease, it is most often seen as sunken bellies, no intrest in food and lethargy. If your water checks out it may be a strong contender for a diagnosis.

On a side note, everyone in a while I have gotten some young fish (about the same size as yours) and one just didn't seem to thrive. Even after medications and full rounds of treatments some just don't put on weight and I eventually lost them. Every other fish in the same group started out in perfect (visible) health and grew up an thrived.

But check your water first, then you can try to separate the sickly one. Sometimes a fish is just so timid that even the "menacing" looks from other fish is enough to make them so stressed out that they won't eat and sit on the bottom barely moving.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Shill, is this the little yellow lab that was grey when you got him? Just wondering if you bought a sick fish. While it's not abnormal for them to have less colour than others, if I remember correctly this one appeared to be a "runt"???

(I may have you confused with someone else...I do that on occasion!)

How long has this tank been set up?

Are you comfortable that your test kits are accurate? (Did you use them through the cycle?)

I'm not surprised or even worried over the loss of the danio. Cichlids will kill them if they get a chance. Probably not related to what is going on with your labs.

It does sound as if the one is flashing. If you don't see any external signs of ich, is there any redness around the gill area? Does the fish seem to focus on the gill area when it flashes? Are they breathing heavy? Lingering at the top like they need air?

The thin one is a concern. As MalawiLover pointed out, you could have a fish on your hands that just isn't healthy, but if it's some sort of illness, you may need to treat.

Watch the tank closely for white stringy feces, reclusive behaviour from the other fish, spitting or refusing food, and any changes in appearance.

As a preventative measure (for the seemingly healthy fish) you can add epsom salt to the tank at 1 cup per 100G. It serves as a mild laxative and works preventatively against bloat, but won't help those already affected.

Now, here is what I would do if I were you...If you don't see any white ich like spots or cottony growths on the fish, do a good sized water change with a good dechlorinator. Pick up some Jungle Parasite Clear, and do 3 treatments, spaced 48 hours apart, with a 25% water change prior to the 2nd and 3rd treatment. This would be helpful if you're dealing with bloat and some external parasites, as well. It's a mild treatment and shouldn't upset your beneficial bacteria.

HTH

(Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner - I got your pm but got busy at work and couldn't respond!)

Kim


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## Shill (Mar 10, 2008)

Thanks Kim.

The sickly looking guy is the one that had the darker grayish stripes to begin with. And you aren't confused.  He does have reddish gills. I noticed that yesterday also but forgot to mention it.

The guy who is flashing doesn't have reddish gills. He looks perfectly fine. As far as the "bloat" I noticed last night, they all went back to normal shape overnight but I fed them their Cichlid flakes this morning and within 30 minutes of eating, they all look bloated again. Even the danio. Is it me or is that normal?

I have aquarium salt in my tank now. So I should go get Epsom Salt and put that in too? Or is that too much salt?

I'll get the medication you suggested and start treatment today.

Since I just did a 25% water change on Sunday and my tank has only been set up for about a month, will it be okay to do a water change again so soon? I don't want to upset the beneficial bacteria and then cause MORE stress.

I'll try to keep an eye out for poop. My youngest originally told me he wanted "pooping fish" so if I tell him to let me know when he see's fish pooping he'll be all over that. (The mind of a 3 year old) ha ha

Still no signs of any external spots or weirdness. The color on most of the labs has gotten brighter since they "moved in" last week. Their fins also seem to be fuller and not clenched as often.


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## dielikemoviestars (Oct 23, 2007)

The emaciated one might've been weak when you got him, so this could just be the direction he was already going.

I'd imagine the fat Danio is just from overfeeding, as are the slightly plump labs.

Dragging a side is generally called "flashing." If it happens more than once or twice every ten minutes, the fish may have an external parasite.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Your beneficial bacteria is in your filter system, not your water column, so at this point, water changes aren't going to hurt anything.

Some flashing is normal. Excessive flashing isn't. Maybe you could get the 3 year old to watch for that, too! :lol:

Fish don't always appear "bloated" with bloat. They can also become emaciated. That would be my main concern with your situation...Once they stop eating, it can be almost impossible to control.

If you're going to treat with meds, no need to add the epsom salt.

Kim


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## Shill (Mar 10, 2008)

This might seem like a dumb question but I have no point of reference. What constitutes heavy breathing? How can I tell if a fish is breathing heavy?


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

Heavy breathing is usually considered breathing faster than the others (like they are out of breath) or breathing that appears to require a good deal more effort than normal. Fishes mouths usualy open a bit when they breath normally. When a fish is distressed, it lookls like it is gasping


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## Shill (Mar 10, 2008)

Okay... so here we are days later and the little guys is still hanging on. He's trying to eat again and he's swimming around. Looks a little better (or maybe it's just because he's moving). I have not treated for ANYTHING. I just couldn't figure out what to treat for. The fish who were flashing still flash on occasion but there are still no visible signs of Ick or anything else. I have noticed that I have another lab who seems to be shrinking rather than growing. All the rest of the fish are doing great.

For fish that seem to not be thriving but show no visible signs other than stress and shrinkage... what would you treat with?

I want to get this resolved as I ordered more fish and they will be here Friday.

Thanks guys!


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

Since none of the indications of external diseases has appeared, the most likely issue is internal parasites. The treatment for that is rather simple. Use a product like Jungle Parasite Clear tabs. They are available at almost every LFS and chain store. Dose as per directions. The only change is I either would not feed or feed only with a medicated food durring the treatment. It will not harm your filter or stain your tank. I have used it several times in the past while quarrentining new fish and it has always worked well.


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## Shill (Mar 10, 2008)

Sounds good. Thanks!


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Shill, I would slow down a bit and stop adding fish until I made sure this tank was stable.

I hope you have a quarantine tank for the new fish who will be arriving.

If you have fish flashing, and fish who are emaciated, and you haven't treated with anything, adding new fish isn't a good idea.

Odds are you aren't going to get anything "resolved" by Friday.

Is the emaciated fish eating at all? Is he taking in any nourishment? How is his behaviour?

How often are the fish flashing? Is the same fish flashing more than once, or are all the fish flashing off objects in the tank? Since you have the one fish with reddened gills, gill flukes would be highly suspect in this situation.

Kim


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## Shill (Mar 10, 2008)

It's only two fish that I notice flashing and it's not often at all. I read somewhere that occasional flashing is normal???

The emaciated guy is trying to eat again and swimming around. The other guy who is small just doesn't seem to be growing. Everyone else is great. They eat like little monsters at feeding time. Poop is normal looking. No one is breathing heavy.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

If one fish isn't eating (I still don't know if he is or not...) I would be concerned.

They are too young to be holding, and if this is the emaciated one, I would suspect internal parasites. That is why I suggested to you earlier in this thread to treat with JPC.

If you can delay your shipment, I would do so. At least until you can make sure nothing is going on in this tank.

Kim


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

If you can't delay your shipment and you can't get a QT tank up and running, make sure the new fish get treated, as well. This might mean extending the JPC treatment for a few days, but that isn't going to hurt anything but your wallet.

This is a common problem in new tanks with new fish. Rushing things up by adding more fish can really snowball on you, and you can lose alot of fish.

Watch the water parameters closely while treating. I've never known JPC to tamper with beneficial bacteria, but this is a new tank, so you never know what might happen.

Kim


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## Shill (Mar 10, 2008)

Thanks Kim,

Unfortunately my fish are on their way. So I had my husband stop for some Jungle Parasite Clear on his way home from work. We'll treat for that and just maintain the treatment when we add the new fish. Guess we'll treat it as a "precaution" for the new fish.

Since I don't have a hospital tank, they'd all get treated anyway if it happened a month from now.


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## Shill (Mar 10, 2008)

I have the tabs. It says to remove the charcoal filter. We only have charcoal filters in our Penguin BioWheel.

Is there another kind of filter for it that does not have Charcoal or do I just take out the filter?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Slit the cartridge and shake the charcoal out. It's easier when it's dry, but you can do it.

You don't want to remove the filter, just the charcoal. If the charcoal is older than 2 weeks, you don't have to worry about it at all. It's too old to remove the meds.

Kim


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## Shill (Mar 10, 2008)

That's exactly what I did (slit the fiber and shook out the charcoal) but... guess I didn't need to. It was about time for a filter change anyway so I guess the charcoal was useless. At least I learned something new.

My Penguin filter has 4 slots for filters. I currently only have 2 filters in it. Is there any benefit to adding my new filters and leaving the two that are there (without the charcoal) as a 2nd line of defense?

Also... there wasn't anything on the Jungle Parasite Clear box about how long to leave the meds if you only treat once. I assume the magic number is 48 hours because that is how long to go between treatments. Any way to know if I need to treat again or I should just do it again in 48 hours after a 25% water change as a precaution.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I wouldn't only treat once. I would treat 3 times, spaced 48 hours apart, with a 25% water change prior to the 2nd and 3rd treatment. And as I said above, if you don't have a QT for the new fish that are coming in, I would really want at least one of those treatments to be with the new arrivals in the tank, just to kind of protect them against what could potentially be going on with your yellow lab.

You don't want to put new cartridges in the filter with carbon in them while treating the tank. Once you're done, it's not a problem, but you aren't done. :wink:

Kim


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

For some reason I always assumed the directions on the JPC instructed it be done for the three doses. I haven't actually read the back of the box in years. I dose, wait 48 hrs do a 25-30% waterchange, dose again, wait 48hrs, 25-30%, dose third time waith 48hrs, do a full regular water change (50%) Start to feed again. I just assumed that is what you are supposed to do.


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## Shill (Mar 10, 2008)

What about feeding? Can I feed them as usual? Someone said not to feed them or to feed with food soaked in medicine. What's the rule here. There was nothing on the box about feeding while treating. I haven't fed since before the treatment yesterday and every time I go near the tank they all come to the front just waiting for me to drop food in.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Fast them while treating, or feed them antiparasitic medicated food. Jungle makes one you can pick up almost anywhere that sells fish supplies, but you will have to soak it in tankwater to get them to eat it, and may even need to mush it a bit with your fingers.

Kim


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## khaki (Jan 12, 2008)

Shill you can also soke your food in Metro + (a type of medicine). it should come in a jar with powder...all you do is simply get a cup and get a little aquarium water and put some metro in the water and some food. i recommand you get the NLS (new life spectrum) Thera A +fomula (also a very good Anti Parasite food). Thera A is excellent because it has a lot of garlic in it. i am also wondering...how many times do you feed your fish a day and do you feed it a lot? try going for New life Spectrum CIchlid pellets.


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