# question about hyposalnity, convicts, damsels and clowns



## hyposalinity

I have read some interesting arcticles about hyposalinity used in the marine fish world as QT tanks prior to introduction to the DT. From what I have read it appears many marine fish are capable of living for extended periods of time in what appears to be brackish conditions. It is recomended that your newly acquired marine fish (let's say a clown or damsel) be introduced to your QT tank, then the salinity is gradually reduced from 1.025 to 1.009 over a period of 1 week. Then the specimen is kept in the QT tank at that specific gravity for a period of 2 more weeks. The last week you increase the salinity back up to 1.025, then introduce the specimen in to the DT. There have been accounts of people keeping prized Angels and Tangs in hyposalinity for up to a year . . . reportedly anyways, no proof that I can provide. I have also read that Mayan and Black-Belt Cichlids can live in full strength salt water, and that Convicts and Dempseys can tolerate brackish conditions. If hyposalinity can be used to QT a Damsel to rid of marine ich, why couldn't hyposalinity work to cure a Convict of fresh ich before being introduced into the DT? With all this said, is it possible for a Convict and lets say a 3 or 4 sripe damsel to inhabit a brackish aquarium together forever? I know there are brackish and fresh water Damsels, and that the Gregory Damsel can inhabit salt, brackish and fresh water. Has anyone ever had a Convict in a brackish tank (1.009), and has anyone ever had a Gregory Damsel, fresh or brackish Damsel as a pet, either in a Cichlid tank or in a species specific tank? Just wonderring, because Cichlids are fresh water cousins to Damsels, and Damsels are closely related to Clowns.


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## hyposalinity

WOW, 36 people are interested enough in the thread to take a peak, but no replies?


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## shef

I think with freshwater fish you'd have to do hypersalinity which they can only stand for a short while. The ich that affects freshwater fish (Ichthyophthirius multifiliis) is not the same parasite as the one that causes saltwater ich (Cryptocaryon irritans ) The freshwater ich obviously can tolerate hyposalinity because it occurs in freshwater.

I recently had a gold rim tang that developed ich and did a lot of research on hyposalinity which when done properly seems to be very effective for treating ich, but it has to be done very carefully or you can harm the fish. Apparently they can tolerate it pretty well, it's bringing them back up to normal saltwater salinity that is the problem.

I have also heard of dempsey's being kept in brackish (and someone on my local forum has done it), I can't comment on how well the fish did but if it contracted ich in brackish conditions, I still don't think hyposalinity would work because the parasite affecting the fish would be chthyophthirius multifiliis and that parasite is found in freshwater so lowering the salinity from brackish to fresh would probably do nothing.

I could be wrong, that's just my understanding of things.


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## thetim6

Saltwater fish have to remove the salt from their bodies through a variety of biological processes, such as urination, fecal excretion, and even releasing salts from their gills. Their internal body chemistry has a much lower salinity than the surrounding water.

When saltwater bony fish are placed in hypo, their bodies work less to remove salts and it makes living that much easier for the fish on a molecular level. Now you must be thinking, why can't we keep saltwater fish in freshwater? Keeping saltwater bony fishes (osteichyes) in hypo or freshwater over a long period of time will destroy their kidneys, eventually causing fatality.

Hypo is a wonderful tool for the saltwater enthusiast, but there really isn't an equivalent for freshwater enthusiast. Freshwater fish, unlike saltwater fish, have a higher salinity in their cells than the surrounding freshwater. Freshwater fishes constantly work to get rid of excess water because osmotic pressure tries to fill their cells with water to dilute the dissolved salts in the cells to the same concentration as the surrounding water. So putting a freshwater fish in salty water that is up to or below their internal cells salinity is OK short term. However, if you were to place a freshwater fish in saltwater the same salinity as the ocean, the fish would die quickly. Their bodies can't get rid of the extra salts, and the water will literally be sucked right out of the fish by osmosis.


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## hyposalinity

I understand putting a true freshwater fish in salt will kill them, usually within a a 5-10 minutes. I also know that saltwater fish (depending on which species) can live for up to an hour in fresh before dying. I am asking, how possible is it for a Damsel (some species are known to frequent brackish waters) and a Convict (which frequent brackish waters) to both live in a "hypo" environment with a salinity of 1.009 - 1.011? I have looked all over to see exactly how tolerant a Convict is to salinities, specific gravities, salt PPT, but can't find an answer. When I lived in Okinawa I would always see Chromis (very close to Damsels) living in shallow waters near run off's along with the brackish Mud Skippers. I had a hunch that the water may be very low in salt content, if not fresh. So, I decided to dip my fingers in it and give it a little taste test. The water where these little Chromis inhabited had little to no salt taste to it when I put it against my tongue. I assumed the Chromis probabaly did swim to and from location, but it was still interesting. I was thinking of experimenting with the idea, but I'm not one to do harm to a fish without knowing what will happen 1st. If it was at all possible, then yes, I would try it.


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## thetim6

Some people might think it's cruel, but I would say go ahead and try it.

Chromis are damsels, but I couldn't tell you if chromis are euryhaline. Anything that is in an estuary would be considered euryhaline IMO unless it were to stay in a very specific location and never move (for example, oysters.)

If you are seeing chromis in an estuary, that particular species of chromis might be euryhaline, like a rockbass or striped bass, and you have a good chance of keeping it in brackish water.

I don't know about convicts being able to handle brackish water, I've never heard of it so I can't comment. However, there are plenty of sunfish that are euryhaline, and sunfish are the temperate evolutionary equivalent of tropical cichlids.

It's worth a shot IMO, I don't think they will die immediately and you should be able to judge if the fish are stressed or not. Adjust the salinity slowly, I'm sure you were planning on that anyways but it doesn't hurt to mention it.


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## westwood8183

http://www.flowerhornusa.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7269&hl=flowerhorn saltwater&st=0

This person kept a small flowerhorn in a saltwater tank for 3 months I believe, before he ended up taking the tank down and putting the fh back in freshwater. I think he said it grew from 3" to 6" in that time and ruled the tank lol.


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## cage623

As impressed as I am about the level of knowledge in this forum I am not sure that you are going to get the answers you are looking for here. I think that the people here on this forum seem to know just about everything about cichlids and the hobby of keeping them. Having said that I don't know that anyone will really know how well cichlids (convicts in particular) would do in a hypo environment for an extended amount of time. Because this is a freshwater fish and thus is best suited for this type of environment I would say that is going to be what almost everyone has experience keeping them in. (I could be way off on this; people on this site are always surprising me.)

What you are proposing sounds like it _might_ be possible, but is in no means (IMO) ideal for either species in the long run. Once again IMO, if you really want both of these fish they would be far better off in their own tanks with their own individual, ideal water conditions. Besides if you did try this, knowing convicts, they would try to mate with the Damsels. :lol:


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## hyposalinity

cage623 said:


> Besides if you did try this, knowing convicts, they would try to mate with the Damsels. :lol:


Interesting you mention this. I've seen so many hybid Cichlids (African and SA/CA) and hybrid Clownfish (Maroon/Ocellaris cross, and different Ocellaris color combinations) happening. It might be neat to have a new brackish Cichlid/Damsel hybrid that could live in either fresh, brac or salt environments. I am primarily interested Convicts as the Cichlid test fish. Because of the waters the inhabit, how prolific they are, will breed or attempt to breed with anything, and they are similar in size to most common Damsels (3 and 4 stripe, Gregory, Blue Devils, Yellw Tail Blue Damsels, Dominos, Green Chromis etc). A Dempsey would be a better choice as far as mortality goes, but not very likely to co-habitate or breed with Damsels since it would probably eat them, and it would require such a bigger aquarium. Firemouths would be an option if they could tolerate bracksih water, but I haven't read anything to make me think they could. Chromides may be the best option, but I am not a fan of Chromides at all. I have had a 3 stripe Damsel before, it was always displaying courting behavior towards my Domino and Tomato clown, it made me think they would be the best option for a Convict mate.


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## cage623

hyposalinity said:


> cage623 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Besides if you did try this, knowing convicts, they would try to mate with the Damsels. :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting you mention this. I've seen so many hybid Cichlids (African and SA/CA) and hybrid Clownfish (Maroon/Ocellaris cross, and different Ocellaris color combinations) happening. It might be neat to have a new brackish Cichlid/Damsel hybrid that could live in either fresh, brac or salt environments. I am primarily interested Convicts as the Cichlid test fish. Because of the waters the inhabit, how prolific they are, will breed or attempt to breed with anything, and they are similar in size to most common Damsels (3 and 4 stripe, Gregory, Blue Devils, Yellw Tail Blue Damsels, Dominos, Green Chromis etc). A Dempsey would be a better choice as far as mortality goes, but not very likely to co-habitate or breed with Damsels since it would probably eat them, and it would require such a bigger aquarium. Firemouths would be an option if they could tolerate bracksih water, but I haven't read anything to make me think they could. Chromides may be the best option, but I am not a fan of Chromides at all. I have had a 3 stripe Damsel before, it was always displaying courting behavior towards my Domino and Tomato clown, it made me think they would be the best option for a Convict mate.
Click to expand...

...What? ...Are you serious? :-?


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## shef

I don't think there is much of a chance of a damsel and a convict spawning let alone having viable fry. :-?


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## thetim6

HAHA, Ok don't get too excited.

It is absolutely impossible for a convict to breed with a chromis! Even if they did court and lay eggs together (which they won't), the eggs won't be fertilized.

I wouldn't try this myself, but if you are seriously interested give it a try. Chromis and convicts are widely abundant in the wild and in the hobby so you aren't endangering a species, just doing an experiment.


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## cage623

I'm hoping that you were just joking like I was. If not this is going to change into a completely different conversation. 
Sorry if you were joking. I had to ask because sometimes people on this forum will say or believe some interesting things.


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## hyposalinity

westwood8183 said:


> http://www.flowerhornusa.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7269&hl=flowerhorn saltwater&st=0
> 
> This person kept a small flowerhorn in a saltwater tank for 3 months I believe, before he ended up taking the tank down and putting the fh back in freshwater. I think he said it grew from 3" to 6" in that time and ruled the tank lol.


Another interesting read, but I as many who replied believe eventually the FH will die. I have also read that in China they are trying to develop a "true" marine Blood Parrot, or may have done so already. I guess the populatity of freshwater Blood Parrots is on the decline in China, so they came up with a salt species to increase demand again for the fish. I do not want to keep a Convict in true salt condition (1.025) or keep a Damsel in true fresh water. I want to keep a Convict and Damsel in brackish water (1.009 - 1.011). I fthey would breed, great for me, if not it would be cool jus tto know they could co-habitate in a neutral environment. I did successfully acclimate a Jewel Cichlid to full strength salt once (1.021). I only kept it in the salt tank for a few days though. It lost all of it's color, so at that sign of stress I removed it and put it back in fresh water.


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## cage623

> I did successfully acclimate a Jewel Cichlid to full strength salt once (1.021). I only kept it in the salt tank for a few days though. It lost all of it's color, so at that sign of stress I removed it and put it back in fresh water.


I wouldn't call that successfully acclimated. But that is just my opinion.


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## thetim6

I can't see a freshwater stenohaline fish living in full saltwater permanently. In theory a stenohaline organism cannot tolerate varying salinity. Most freshwater and saltwater fishes (reef fishes such as damsels included) are stenohaline. Only a select few are euryhaline, and most of these fishes are found in estuaries.

Are convict cichlids and convict damsels found in estuaries? If they aren't, chances are they can't cope with a change in salinity long term.

And I don't want you to have the false impression that there is even a remote possibility of a convict damsel and a convict cichlid mating and producing viable offspring. There is ZERO chance of that happening, as cool as it might sound.


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## hyposalinity

Serious as a heart attack, meaning if it happens . . . COOL, if it doesn't, oh well. Cichlids and Damsels are close enough for it to be possible. Marroon Clowns and False Percula clowns are both saltwater, both anemonefish, but totally different. One is Premnas biaculeatus and the other is Amphiprion ocellaris, they not only courted, and laid eggs, but reared living fry. All other clown fish (Tomato, Cinnamon, Skunk, Clarkii, Saddleback etc) are all Amphiprion, Maroons are the only ones which are Premnas. Just like Convicts (Archocentrus nigrofasciatus) have crossed with not only other Archocentrus, but Thorichthys, Herichthys, Amphilophus and Nandopsis. Like I said, this is not my ultimate goal, but would be interesting to say the least if it happened. I thought it would be neat just to have them live together, maybe even successfully have a clownfish in there too. Now if I could get an African in there too, like a Jewel, 110% [email protected]$$.


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## thetim6

Cichlids are somewhat closely related to damsels, they are both bony fish from the order perciformes. Tuna are perciformes as well, do you think a tuna and a cichlid could create offspring? Cichlids and damsels split at the family level, however, which is far enough to know they can not hybridize.

Maroon clowns and occelaris clowns, and all anemonefish for that matter, are in the same family _Pomacentridae_ with all the other damsels. Cichlids are from the freshwater family _cichlidae_.

It would be very cool, but it is IMPOSSIBLE!


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## dwarfpike

IF I were to try this experiment ... (not the breeding part of course), I would use Mayan cichlids. They are commonly found in brackish water and one person even saw a breeding pair defending free swimming fry on an island reef two miles from shore. They would be the best canidate (sp?) for something like this ... despite their size and just plain nastiness.


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## thetim6

dwarfpike said:


> IF I were to try this experiment ... (not the breeding part of course), I would use Mayan cichlids. They are commonly found in brackish water and one person even saw a breeding pair defending free swimming fry on an island reef two miles from shore. They would be the best canidate (sp?) for something like this ... despite their size and just plain nastiness.


That is an extremely interesting anecdote dwarfpike, if it's true than it proves that mayan cichlids are euryhaline.


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## hyposalinity

I am not disagreeing with you or anyone on the matter of hybridizing Cichlids and Damsels, just saying it would be cool if it were to happen. Saying a Clown and a Damsel hybrid could happen, very possible, especially a Domino Damsel. Dominos like 3 stripes are the closest related to Clowns, especially Dominos. Dominos have very close symbiot relationship to anemones, just like clowns. My Domino use to run my clown out of the anemone all of the time. Well, if I do attempt this little experiment I will let everyone know how it goes, thanks for all the replies.


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## dwarfpike

*thetim6* - I can try and track down the article ... I am pretty sure it was an observation by Dr. Paul Loiselle ... so I believe it at least. Might take some time though, I have AFM magazines dating back to 1988! :lol: I remember it though becuase well that stood out a lot. He was describing that since it was brackish, that explains why it has the largest north-south distribution of any central american cichlid ... able to swim from river system to system via the ocean ... neat article. Great, now I'll have to dig for it! :lol:


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## thetim6

Gotcha.

Clowns and damsels might be possible, I can't say, but you are right in that they are closely related. Many juvenile forms of damsels and other reef fish such as angles, cardinals, etc., hide in anemones, and some species such as dominoes sometimes do even as adults.

Goodluck and definitely let us know what you find.


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## hyposalinity

thetim6 said:


> That is an extremely interesting anecdote dwarfpike, if it's true than it proves that mayan cichlids are euryhaline.


I am not sure about the euryhaline part, but I have read many arcticles saying both Mayans and Blackbelts can live in salt water. One of the two (not sure which) was on display in a Toledo aquarium living with Damsels for more than a year. I am not sure how long the process took, or the strength of the salinity, it may have been weak, like 1.019 instead of 1.025 specific gravity. I have considerred other more likely Cichlids, but these two get huge, require big aquariums and would probably eat the Damsels. I am looking at doing this with a 20 long or 29 show tank.


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## dwarfpike

Can try Mayan's with Mexican Giant Damsels ... talk about a fiesty tank!!! Would have to be huge though. I mean a 12 inch damsel on it's own would just be scary, but mixed with Mayans? *shudders*


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## thetim6

dwarfpike said:


> *thetim6* - I can try and track down the article ... I am pretty sure it was an observation by Dr. Paul Loiselle ... so I believe it at least. Might take some time though, I have AFM magazines dating back to 1988! :lol: I remember it though becuase well that stood out a lot. He was describing that since it was brackish, that explains why it has the largest north-south distribution of any central american cichlid ... able to swim from river system to system via the ocean ... neat article. Great, now I'll have to dig for it! :lol:


You don't have to, but I'm sure the community (myself included!) would appreciate the read. That's a lot of magazines to sift through, maybe they have an online database? I know how much of a PITA it can be to dig through magazines looking for that _one_ article.

Have you ever heard of the garibaldi damsel? I think 12 inches is possible for those guys, but they are a cool water species associated with pacific kelp beds. I'm guessing the garibaldi is the same as the mexican damsel actually, I thought you were asking if there was a damsel that got that big haha. Obviously there is.


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## hyposalinity

Thanks for the suggestion, but I don not want to have to buy another tank and set it up just for an experiment. I already have a salt tank with a clown and damsel it it, and a tank with a convict in it. All I have to do is start slowly decreasing the salinity in the salt tank to 1.011 and increase the salinity in the other to 1.009, then introduce the two into my spare tank which will be at 1.010. I mainly wanted to get a general concensus from cichlid enthusiasts as to whether this experiment could work and if the mortality expectance of both fish.


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## hyposalinity

I have read about many damsels capable of living in fresh water, like the freshwater gregory. Most of these fresh/brackish damsels are either very hard to acquire, or impossible to acquire. This iswhy I am looking into 3 stripes, blue devils, etc. I would consider clowns too, but I think they would not be aggressive enough to live with a convict, plus they are very slow moving and just behave so much different than cichlids and damsels for that matter. Maroons are suppose to be the most aggressive of the clowns, but I highly doubt they could fend off or be able to retreat from a CON with a nasty temper. I also don't want to lose alot of money on an expensive experimental fish. The cheaper clowns would not be aggressive enough, and an aggressive maroon is expensive. Common damsels are cheap, just like CONS.


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## thetim6

Sounds good. I don't expect the saltwater fish to die, but the convict I really have no clue. But I honestly think you will be able to tell it's stressed before it dies.

As for the mayan being euryhaline, if it can live in brackish/full salt/and freshwater than it is, by definition of the term, euryhaline. :thumb: Whether or not it is actually euryhaline I can't say, but if what dwarfpike says is true than I believe it is.


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## hyposalinity

I can't start the experiment anytime soon, my current salt tank is set-up as a mini-reef with reef sand, live rock and an anemone. My other tank has a breeding pair of CONS, I am looking into the future, either if my reef tank crashes, or when I have to move and tear the tanks down and start from scratch.


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## dwarfpike

Oh yes, too bad garibaldi don't keep their juvi colors ... though the adults are nice ... but differant species ... there are 3 12 inch damsels, garibaldi's being one. The Mexican Giant damsel is one as well, another pacific species, but found in baja and down the mexican coast ... kinda dull (especially compared to the garibaldi) ... more tropical but still cooler water than most of our species ... though the king (passer) angelfish is from the same area ... can't remember the scientific name off the top of my head though.


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## cage623

Wow!  I go to lunch and look how much I missed! :lol:

Anyways I just wanted to say that this topic seemed to spin out of control after I made the mistake of bringing up the subject on mating. I agree with everyone else when I say that this would not happen. Even if these fish could produce viable fry (which they can't) I think the con would be a little too stressed out from the adjustment to the salt water that it would take a long time to get to a point where it considered mating (especially with what it would perceive as an alien fish).

As much as I hate to add yet another point (afraid it will also be carried away) I don't think a small tank would really be the key to solving this question that you have presented. If it fails the sample size is just way too small to be credible. If you are serious about this you would have to larger with a group of each fish as test subjects. Having said all this I really hope that nobody actually tries this. I think that it would not turn out well (especially for the convicts) and would just result in subjecting numerous fish to unfavorable conditions, and even death, to really prove nothing that most of us would already have speculated would happen.


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## hyposalinity

Thanks for peeing in my Wheaties. :lol:


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## hyposalinity

The 1st one covers a little bit of everything.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:GP ... cd=1&gl=us (click on link to convert to PDF)

www.aquaticinvasions.ru/2007/AI_2007_2_3_Nico_etal.pdf -

http://animal-world.com/encyclo/fresh/c ... ichlid.php

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6016770.html (scroll to mid of page)

I hope all the links work, if not just GOOGLE saltwater cichlid, mayan cichlid spawning in saltwater and black belt cichlid spawning in salt water.


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## hyposalinity

From everyting I have read on CA/SA Cichlids only the Black Belt and Mayan are capable of converting to full strength saltwater (1.025 = 34ppt), and Convicts and Dempseys will live in brackish waters (1.010 = 16ppt). The methods I have read about may have had better results if the acclimation period lasted longer, 4 days seems to short, even to acclimate to bracksih. I was going to make it a lot longer process. I was going to prolonge the process for a full month, only raising the salinity in 1 pt increments every 48 hours.

Day 1: freshwater
Day 4: 1.001
Day 7: 1.002
Day 10: 1.003
Day 13: 1.004
Day 15: 1.005
Day 18: 1.006
Day 21: 1.007
Day 24: 1.008
Day 27: 1.009

then introduce into brackish tank 1.010 on day 30


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## hyposalinity

Then the opposite for the salt tank

Day 1: saltwater
Day 3: 1.024
Day 5: 1.023
Day 7: 1.022
Day 9: 1.021
Day 11: 1.020
Day 13: 1.019
Day 15: 1.017
Day 17: 1.016
Day 19: 1.015
Day 21: 1.014
Day 23: 1.013
Day 25: 1.012
Day 27: 1.011

then introduce into bracksih tank at 1.010 on day 30


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## hyposalinity

Maybe an easier route would be for me to wait on my pair of clownfish to start reproducing, then slowly take them down to 1.011 and hope to rear fry at that salinity. Then get my pair of Cons to reproduce, then slowly increase them to 1.009 and hopefully get them to rear fry at that salinity. Then finally introduce the fry from each pair into a brackish tank at 1.010 together. Talk about a long shot, but makes more sense I guess. I wish I already had a breeding pair of 3 stripe damsels instead of Ocellaris.


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## cage623

I think that the real flaw with most of this is that none of this really looked at long term effects on these fish. Plus if a fish is able to survive a few days in an environment that has an elevated salt content does not mean that it _prefers_ that environment. IMO this thinking is going much farther then the findings of this experiment. 
Also you are talking about them breeding under these conditions. I really don't think that this is a likely outcome. Even if there is evidence that some species (some does not equal all species) are able to survive different levels of salt for sometime, this does not mean that these fish are able or even trying to breed in these environments. It is still me strong opinion that for the most part CA and SA cichlids should be kept in the waters that they are normally found to thrive and breed in. I also do not believe that at this time I can really talk you out of keeping cons in this type of environment. So I hope that if you are going to try this that you keep a close eye on them and do not set your hopes too high. (Maybe I am the only one that is having these thoughts and feelings about this topic) Either way, good luck to you.


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## hyposalinity

Of course I would not keep the fish under these conditions for any longer than I had to. At the 1st sign of distress (lack of appetite, not breeding, physical appearance etc) they would be slowly acclimated back to their natural environment. I would not let them die in these situations. But yes, I was hoping I could get a pair of CONS to breed in 1.009 and raise live fry at that salinity. Then the babies would definitely be brackish. I highly doubt the Damsels would reproduce at 1.011, getting live fry from a breeding pair in their natural salinity and normal environment is hard enough. Damsels will breed and lay eggs in captivity, but actually getting free swimming fry is another story. I always see captive bred Clowns for sale, but I never see captive bred Damsels for sale. This may also have to do with Damsels being so easy to come by in the wild, and they are so cheap. Maybe there is no need to breed Damsels in captivity, the cost and effort to do so may not be worth it.


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## thetim6

I did a Google search for "Mayan cichlids in saltwater" and got a ton of hits! The first link I clicked on describes a brackish water invasion in Thailand by Mayan cichlids. Here's an excerpt:



[url:2cqn3ju4 said:


> http://www.aquaticinvasions.ru/2007/AI_2007_2_3_Nico_etal.pdf[/url]":2cqn3ju4]C. Urophtalmus is highly adaptable ecologically, occurring in a diverse array of natural and artificial inland and coastal environments, including small and large streams, canals, ditches, lakes, ponds, limestone sinkholes, and connected caves, *marshes*, *coastal lagoons* and *mangrove swamps*. The species can survive abrupt changes in salinity and naturally producing populations have been documented as inhabiting freshwater, brackish, and even marine environments.


In the article they do say the Mayan cichlid is a euryhaline fish. C. urophtalmus inhabits marshes and mangrove swamps naturally, two environments that are estuaries.

I found another article that talks about cichlids and saltwater in general, very interesting. This one talks about the mayan and also states that black belt cichlids live in estuaries and have even been recorded breeding a few miles off shore.



[url:2cqn3ju4 said:


> http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/2027.42/51532/1/Oldfield_Saltwater_Cichlids_2004.pdf[/url]":2cqn3ju4]Out of the 100 or so Central American cichlids, two can regularly be found in the ocean: the black belt cichlid and the Mayan cichlid.


In the article it also says convict cichlids and jack dempseys can be kept in low concentrations of saltwater, most likely because of evaporation and high mineral contents in their natural environments. They probably wouldn't survive in full strength saltwater though.


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## y2kenny19

Old thread from a different site where one person managed to keep cichlids and a damsel in the same tank with pics a few posts down on this page:
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/sh ... 904&page=5


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## cage623

Just one quick question. Does everyone think that these convicts will be able to breed in these environments? I am just wondering if the increasing level of salt will cause a big enough sift in osmotic pressure that the eggs will be unable to stay viable. I guess I will be interested to find if they are able to breed in these waters.  Being that people always joke that cons could probably breed on dry land I don't know if a little salt will slow them down. :lol:


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## hyposalinity

I am going to start out with the CONS 1st. I am going to wait until they lay another batch of eggs and rear the fry. Then I am going to slowly start raising the salinity of the water 1ptt with each batch of eggs they lay until 1.009 is achieved. Once they stop laying eggs or the eggs won't hatch, I will stop the experiment. If they stop laying eggs or the eggs don't hatch at 1.001, then so be it. If I can get them to lay eggs and hatch out at 1.011, I may start looking into breeding those fry with other fry from different parents in an attempt to have a true saltwater CON that can thrive in true marine conditions . . . 1.025!!! I am still undecided if I want to try and keep CONS with 3 stripe Damsels in a "hypo" environment at this time. I can't really do it at the moment because my salt tank has anemones in it, but I can start off with the CON tank.


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## bernie comeau

In the past I have heard of convict feeders that survived for many months in salt water tanks, and grew and eventually had to be caught with a net as they were not wanted in the tank. Though I have never actually seen it.

I'm willing to bet, that if you do it gradually, that cons will reproduce in salt water tanks :lol: See how high a level of salinity you can get con eggs to hatch in. And if they can't hatch in full strength salt water, grow the offspring up that hatched at the highest salinity and see if some of them can reproduce at higher salinities.

The general thought is that it is not for the lack of ability to with stand higher salinities that prevents many CA cichlids from making the transition from brackish to sea or ocean water, but because of competition from fishes that are already adapted to their enviroments.


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## hyposalinity

cage623 said:


> Just one quick question. Does everyone think that these convicts will be able to breed in these environments?
> 
> 
> 
> When I lost my male CON my wife wanted a blood parrot, so I got one. I had already started the brackish conversion a while back, but stopped because I didn't really want a hybrid CON/BP. But anyways, I did three water changes on my 20 gallon, and each time I would put 1 gallon of 1.021 salt water in each time. They lived like this for 4 months, if anything I can say my female CON looked alot better and was more confident in the salt in the water (she would normally hide all the time, the she started coming out more and would eat from my hand). She was always trying to breed with the BP. I don't know if the BP was a female, homosexual, or infertile, but they never raised any fry. So, I got rid of the BP and am now starting with a pair of CONS again. By the way, I can't stand BPs, CONS and Texas are my favorite.
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## hyposalinity

I truely believe CONS will survive and produce viable fry in brackish conditions, and that if you start to breed the brackish fry you will eventually have saltwater CONS. Beware marine enthusiasts, there may be a new Damsel to cycle your tanks with in the near future . . . and they are called Convict Cichlids. Saltwater hobbyists thought Damsels could wreak havoc on their prized Angels, they have another thing coming. :lol: JK, this is not my intention, I just want one for my own salt tank to co-habitate with Damsels and such.


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## hyposalinity

My pair of CONS began their spawning ritual when the salinity was 1.006 according to the refractometer. I noticed eggs at 1.007, now the salinity is at 1.008. I predict by the time they hatch (if they hatch) the salinity will be at 1.009. I'll reply as to wether they lived or died. As of right now they appear to be fertile, not white or fungus covered. I am not going to raise the salinity anymore, I'm stopping at 1.009.


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## mbargas

I just caught up with this post while mining for damsel/cichlid compatibility. I currently have a high salinity brackish tank (or low salinity marine,depending on your perspective) with an SG ofabout 1.017.

So far I have 1 mayan, 1 black belt, and 1 sergeant major. They are all relatively small at his point (about 1.5"). No signs of stress and they get along OK. I plan to add other salt-tolerant Cichlids and hardy damsels to see how this community evolves.

What is obvious so far is that the sergeant major has a much brighter, more intense coloration than either cichlid. So I'm now asking myself why keep Cichlids at all when I can keep the much more colorful damsels?


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