# self made stand noise



## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

my 125g stand that i made pops or creaks at times. do all wooded stands do this?


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## cgmark (Aug 18, 2010)

Wood changes size depending on humidity. If you google woodworking expansion joints you can read about how carpenters deal with it. If you made the stand with extremely tight joints and lots of wood glue that could be a problem because there is no give so pressure builds until it can't hold it and pops instead of slowly changing. Over time it will eventually lead to either what is too tight loosening or wood bending or cracking.

Wood is extremely strong when it wants to bend with the weather. For example you can place a length of wood between two concrete walls and over time wet and dry the wood. Eventually it will crack the walls. A lot of the antique furniture that survives today was done with floating panels, where the sides are not nailed or glued into the frame but float inside channels in the frame allowing them to move with the weather. One of the reasons furniture got cheaper is because of MDF board. Not only is it cheaper to make, but moisture doesn't effect its shape much making it possible to just glue together a shelf and have it work . It is a weaker product though and easy to damage from screws,etc.

An easy fix is to loosen it up some. If you have bolts in the supporting corners, and you really should, then loosen them a turn or so to give it some room to move.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

I live really close to Elyria. Maybe a look at it would be better than pictures or even videos.


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

hey thats neat to meet a fellow fish keeper near me  .
we can work on setting something up.
it doesnt do it alot, but it is nerving to sit there watching the fish and "pop".
there is no wood glue. i used a plan from the web and it is a very hearty stand. ill get the site link on here when i find it.


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## TexasFishGuy (Aug 20, 2010)

How long has it been setup? Is it on carpet or solid flooring? Could just be the stand settling. Did you acclimate the lumber used for at least a few days before setting it all up?


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

the lumber sat in my basement prior to setting it up. its been set up for about 8 months and is on concrete. it does it when i do large water changes but thats normal i think. it doesnt do it on a regular basis, i just fear i may one day see it crack or worse. no one wants that!


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

http://freshwatercichlids.com/do-it-yourself-aquarium-stand i dont know if this will be clickable since *** never tried it, but it is a site that shows the stand i used. i made it like it shows plus added extra cross supports and wrapped it in 3/4" cabinet ply. i also used 3/4 ply on the top for extra stiffness and it looks nicer... um let me get a pic of it real quick. here we go...


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## christopher1325 (Aug 26, 2010)

My 55g stand i built from used lumber did this and i shook the heck out of the stand push and pulled on it.lol now it does not pop any more maybe it loosened up and settled in??


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

you did not shake it with the tank full of water on it did you? i would be scared to do that. although i did push and pull on it some to see if it would move and it doesnt. its like pushing on a wall, the water doesnt even ripple.


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## christopher1325 (Aug 26, 2010)

Yes i pushed and pulled on it with water in the tank my water moved very little but it seemed to fix the problem but i don't know just thought i would mention it.


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

im glad you mentioned it. you never know what may work.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

> Wood changes size depending on humidity. If you google woodworking expansion joints you can read about how carpenters deal with it. If you made the stand with extremely tight joints and lots of wood glue that could be a problem because there is no give so pressure builds until it can't hold it and pops instead of slowly changing. Over time it will eventually lead to either what is too tight loosening or wood bending or cracking.


I'm a carpenter and we use glue so wood doesn't move. Example is on every joint in casing around doors or windows. Glue is stronger then wood. Always glue joints. Always.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

++1 on the glue joints. The best joint is one that does not move. Anybody that has squeaky floors that were not glued down right can tell you about that. When wrapping a frame with plywood it makes sense to add some glue on all the uprights before fastening the plywood so that it can't bow and move around.


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

SHOULD I PULTHE WRAP OFF AND APPLY GLUE?


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

opps sorry bout the caps. lol and the typos


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

:roll: No.

Wood is a dynamic product, you cannot change that unless you use engineered lumber.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

fox said:


> Wood is a dynamic product, you cannot change that unless you use engineered lumber.


Care to elaborate on this one? I don't follow...

As for taking off the wrap and glueing it. I wouldn't, the stand isn't going to go anywhere.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

TheFishGuy said:


> fox said:
> 
> 
> > Wood is a dynamic product, you cannot change that unless you use engineered lumber.
> ...


Being a carpenter I am certain you understand the dynamic nature of nominal dimensioned lumber.

Sawn lumber, not engineered stock, has a coeffecient of expansion that is directly related to temperature (dries/ shrinks) while also directly related to humidity (swells/ grows). Place a stand in front of a window washed by sunlight througout the day and as the suns radiation traverse across the cabinet the structure "adjusts" to this. Now throw humidity changes in this mix and you get swelling also. Lets say it creaks/ pops. What it is really doing is finding its happy place.

The heat goes on, the AC kicks in and the envirenment changes so the wood "adjusts" to this change.

Then as lumber ages it "shrinks" and at different proportions according to its size. A 2" x 12" can shrink upwards of 1/2" or more while a 2" by 4" will shrink 1/8" or so. This is quite evident in new work where the floor will shrink and the building lowers say 1/4" in the first year and the gypsum board does not. You will see wrinkles in the tape along the corners.


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

wow thats technical. basically the wodd will move with the elements... yes? so using glue wont stop the woods natural swelling and such. so if it got glued what would happen?
i probably wont glue it though. its very heavily built using many screws and nails.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

awilson0001 said:


> so using glue wont stop the woods natural swelling and such. so if it got glued what would happen?
> i probably wont glue it though. its very heavily built using many screws and nails.


As another poster suggested earlier it would have been a good idea to have used glue when you assembled the cabinet. The glue is stronger than the wood.

I would not lose a moment sleep knowing the fact that glue was not used. You used sound building techniques when assembling I assume.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Actually, my point was that engineered lumber moves easily twice as much as dimentially cut lumber.

So, fox... What do you do for a living? Engineer? Architect? A 2x12 shrinking a 1/2"? Since when? Now, in the past 75 years 2x12's have become 1.5x11.25. In the 70's the were 1.5x11.5 in the 20's,30's and 40's they were 2"x12"... So if that's what you mean by shrinking 1/2" then yes, I'd agree... But shrinking from expansion and contraction... No way. 2x4's shrinking 1/8"??? Where are you getting your info? How about a 6"x10" psl growing 1/4"-1/2" in a year!

Engineered lumber is not only horrible to work with it shrinks and swells ten fold over lumber.

As for the tape in the corners on the drywall in new york... The tapers are commercial tapers and more than likely it looked like that when they finished... :lol:


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Wood in large structures like buildings do move around but in small items like tank stands it is not worth the mention. Glue is good in the it keeps the sides from moving. It is not worth it for me to take a stand apart to add glue. Just file it as experience for the nest stand. My first thought was to question if you are certain that the noise is the stand rather than possibly the building instead.

My spin on why the drywall cracks is because lumber is no longer as dry or as good as it used to be. Half the carpenters can't look at wood and tell which way it will bow. Often they don't try to make good headers. Some just nail the first couple 2X's together and run. We had such demand that most anything built would sell.


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

it is the stand. it sits in my basement on the concrete floor, i sat in front of it and actually heard it pop/creak.. i am starting to think its mainly after a bigger water change. usually it makes noise while emptying and filling due to the weight. i guess it just worries me, cause at times like this past week... it popped like two days after the water change. if its normal to settle like this after a large water change then im fine with that.

good conversation goin on hehe


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

It could be the nails. Some nails are coated, and when the water load changes, they can pop inside the wood, more than bolts or screws would.OK, as long as it's the stand, the wall, the nails, the floor, anything but the tank.


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## TexasFishGuy (Aug 20, 2010)

From what I have read here...*TFG*, you must be a trim guy like myself. 

PfunMo...


> Half the carpenters can't look at wood and tell which way it will bow. Often they don't try to make good headers. Some just nail the first couple 2X's together and run. We had such demand that most anything built would sell.


That is why framers aren't hired to do trim work.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Cabinet maker/trim/everything. You have to be in order to make it these days... I would not label myself a framer or builder. Carpenter pretty much covers all the bases.


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

its mostly screws, non rusting deck type screws actually. the nails where mostly used for starting points to lock in an alignment prior to screwing in a tight spot. the wrap is smaller screws from the inside out with finish nails along the outer edges.


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## cgmark (Aug 18, 2010)

It is okay to glue joints but should never be used for the total length of a board or to fill a gap like where trim contacts the frame . I have seen this a lot in furniture where people put glue between two boards and stick them together. Later it breaks and leaves behind a very hard strip of glue with wood splinters attached. Glue isn't for fixing squeaks. If the joint squeaks without glue then something is wrong with it. Glue is to prevent the joint working loose over time.

I don't like the design of that stand at all. The corners are weak and will be easy to get out of square when moving it around. I have plans for a much stronger and just as easy to build design that I will put up later.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

cgmark said:


> Glue isn't for fixing squeaks. If the joint squeaks without glue then something is wrong with it. Glue is to prevent the joint working loose over time.


Ok, then why do you use construction adheasive between floor joists and decking? It's even in the building codoe to use it! And by decking I mean 3/4 T&G plywood.

Why do you glue EVERY joint when building a set of stairs?

The answer is to spot squeaks. Plain and simple. It's not a structural thing it's a quality thing...

Glue everything, if you don't want movement or squeaks that is...

Stands for tanks that are 150 gallon and smaller do not even need "framing" If 3/4" finish grade plywood is used that's all you need. Build a box, cut a hole for a door and you're done. The box doesn't even need a lid or floor, just triangles in the corners to keep it square. Heck I'd even build it for a 240 and sleep comfortably at nite. So many of these stands are so over engineered, over thought and over done it's not even funny. People wasting time money and lots of effort for nothing...


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

well, it didnt take a long time really. and the extra framing makes it more solid and gives a place for the top piece which i wanted cause it looks nice.

but you are right about the construction being over kill...
i looked at stands in a store and they are nothing but 1x2 or 2x2 framing with 1x2 slats attached all the way around. no top no bottom. so i guess if that can hold a 125g then a heavily built stand can.

that thought makes me feel all better lol


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

TheFishGuy said:


> So, fox... What do you do for a living? Engineer? Architect? A 2x12 shrinking a 1/2"? Since when? Now, in the past 75 years 2x12's have become 1.5x11.25. In the 70's the were 1.5x11.5 in the 20's,30's and 40's they were 2"x12"... So if that's what you mean by shrinking 1/2" then yes, I'd agree... But shrinking from expansion and contraction... No way. 2x4's shrinking 1/8"??? Where are you getting your info? How about a 6"x10" psl growing 1/4"-1/2" in a year!


To not let this turn into an argument by saying you are revealing your ignorance I will just point out you are showing your inexperience.

I started in the building trade when LBJ was running the place here. They did not use tape measures then, we used wood rules. I've worked on Gold Coast Estates and restored structures built by shipwrights three centuries ago. I guess you could say I have forgotten much you have not learned yet. Nothing wrong with that, what I am saying is just do not be so aristotlian in yer thinking m8.

If you believe a 2 x 12 does not shrink 1/2" try this ... go buy a 12' length and place it in your garage on saw horses after noting its dimensions ... get back to me in two weeks I think you will be surprised with the difference in only two weeks. Be Sure a 2 x 12 will lose at the least 1/2" in it's travels. We leave a space in the sheathing 'tween levels to account for this shrinkage. When we build new structures we pruposely leave the tekos off until just before inspections as there will be a 1/4" gap under the jst in only days if installed with the joist. When I said tekos, they have not been manufactured in many years I meant face mount hangers.

The reason for glue on stairs is to secure the shims. You do not nail these shims or they will squeak... as the wood moves the nails do not and the friction 'tween them is where the noise is emminating, also these shims would crack over the years if nailed, thus the reason you glue the shims when fabricating staire. Be Sure this is fakt.

I started out as a carpenter, schooled in engineering and have been called many things some not able to print here. I have been doing fine finish work in high end homes for the last 15 - 20 years. Some of my work has appeared in House magizines and one project was broadcast on television. Call me what you want I am pretty thick skinned but what I have posted is certainly not an opinion Be Sure of it.

Debate is good m8 we all learn from it ...


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

yeeeha! what a topic we got going...


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

We do not use shims in our stair consruction, Risers are screwed to the back side of the treads, treads are finished nailed down through into the top of the risers after the stairs have been installed. Also after installation 45* rips are glued and pinned to the back side under each tread behind the riser, then triangles are glued and pinned the the back side of the stringer in the crotch of the tread and riser. I've seen the shim method, and fixed many times. Around here we call it "quality amish craftsmenship" :lol: I'm just a young buck though, only been at it for 18 years... Have had quite a few customers that were engineers, and have dealt with architects who make drawings for 25-30k, get on site and ask us how we plan to build it. :lol: This has only happened three times in my short career. The problem with engineers is they have zero field experience, if it looks good on paper then great, slap your field verify stamp on it and send out the bill... We worked for an engineer who insisted on having his entire house framed 2' oc because the 1/2 plywood said it could span it. You should have seen the ridge on this place. We put a small 16x16 addition on and the existing footer was of square three inches! Three inches in 16'!! But he knew best because he was an engineer. :roll: My personal opinion is that every engineer and architect should have a minimum five years in the field getting dirty with the rest of us uneducated scrubs so they can learn a thing or two BEFORE they go to school!

As for the 1/2 shrinkage... again, I have yet to witness it. My home is 83 years old. Joints are still tight. Length and width... The basement I'm currently working in has 2x4 16 oc studs. no shrinkage there either... But, a completely botched feat of engineering at a high end 500k to move in condo complex we're working in has psl's outside holding up the most horribly constructed decks I've ever seen... The psls, spec'd by the engineer are failing... Why, because it looked great on paper... even thought the decks are 5" too small in each direction we're supposed to build walls on what the hacks added to the outside of the psls to make the decks their proper dimention... Great support there... Again, engineer approved.

One of my best friends is an engineer, electrical/mechanical. I call him every time we find something stupid an engineer has approved... Leave him a voice mail that says "field verify" and hang up! :lol:

I think it's great that you've been featured in magazines and tv shows, so have we, but I'm not going to get into a peeing contest and start listing websites and shows our work has been in. It's not about that, it's about how you were taught and who taught you. I was lucky enough to work under a couple of the best and lucky enough to have been involved in some very interesting and very high profile jobs which were great learning experiences. And when we work for an architect or engineer we just sit there and listen to them rant, then go do things our way, the right way.

Proof is in the pudding. We are not slow, we constantly have work, so much so that I work two weekends in a row then take one off. We like these slow times in the ecconomy. It weeds out the hacks... It's nice to have repeat customers who refuse to let any other contractor in their home on on their property. I'm very proud of that. 

My wife told me not to subscribe to the DIY folder... :lol: I guess that's one thing I haven't learned yet... Mama's always right! :lol:

Fox, please don't take anything I say personally... I just get passionate sometimes... BUT, I will get a 2x12, as a matter of fact I'll get two! I will put one in my basement, and one outside. I will measure them every day with my truck tape and I will keep a note book of the results. If I find it shrinks I will gladly eat my words. I'm man enough to admit when I'm wrong! Just so happens that the tree house I'm attempting to build for the past three years needs a couple of 12' 2x12's!

Sorry awilson0001  I'll stop now.


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

heh. im not bothered. i mean that for real.

it is always nice to get a good debate and or topic goin for discussion.

my stand hasnt popped since i started this topic. it must releave itself more with a large water change and may take a couple days to settle back down.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

I releave myself quite often... in many different ways...


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

awilson0001 said:


> heh. im not bothered. i mean that for real.
> 
> it is always nice to get a good debate and or topic goin for discussion.
> 
> my stand hasnt popped since i started this topic. it must releave itself more with a large water change and may take a couple days to settle back down.


If there's room for a sump or wet/dry under that tank, you could eliminate the water level changes on the tank and top of the stand while doing water changes. All the water level variations would be in the sump which would either be held by the floor or the very bottom of the stand. Try it out if you want. I have one I am not using at the moment. If it works, pick one up and bring mine back. The pet shop you'd pass on the way to my house sometimes has used ones from trade ins at a good price.


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

is that Aquatic TechnologyÃ¢â‚¬Å½? thats a neat place.

i have heard of sumps and thought of one even, but have no idea where to even start. im not new to fish in general, but things that are beyond a regular tank set up are kinda new to me.

kinda off topic here but how do you set up a diy sump and/or they sell them?

maybe there is a topic here to read on that. thats got to be a big sump doesnt it?


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

check this out:

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... p?t=217908


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

i saw that and i am reading it but it doesnt really say how to set one up or if they sell them. is there a topic on actually setting one up? i kinda looked, guess ill keep looking


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

You need an overflow box to get water down to the tank. Your sump pump should set the pace of the filter...


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

What we may be missing in the shrinking of lumber may be explained by regional weather. Lots of difference from East coast to Ohio weather. Add into that the different building practiced and there certain to be different thinking. It might be that niether is totally wrong nor totally right. The sources of lumber will vary as well. In the center of the country (St. Louis) glue is highly thought of as a way to reduce squeaks and pops. The only major shrinking I find in boards are deck boards. If we use treated lumber for decks, we cram them as close together as we can get them. The drying makes the vent cracks between boards later.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

We do the same here.


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

i think i have heard that before though, that wood acts different depending on weather. here in ohio, we get the freezing and thawing, and we get humidity.

texas gets hot... is it humid there?

i think wood ends up the same maybe but its faster in some places do to weather conditions.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

It is usually pretty bone dry. Until it floods like last week! Local folks think of it as humid but they are comparing it to West Texas, maybe. Not unusual to have humidity down in the 20-30 percent range. I'm not really a Texan, though, I just happen to live here for a while. Don't miss scraping the windshield, for sure. :lol:


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

johnsonfredral said:


> Today many cabinet doors and drawer fronts utilize an MDF core. Doors and drawer fronts may also be fashioned of particle board surfaced with high-pressure laminate.


Yes, they're called **** made... I mean craftmaid LOL


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

TheFishGuy said:


> johnsonfredral said:
> 
> 
> > Today many cabinet doors and drawer fronts utilize an MDF core. Doors and drawer fronts may also be fashioned of particle board surfaced with high-pressure laminate.
> ...


The post you quoted was spam. The poster responsible has been replaced by a llama.


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

huh?


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

TheFishGuy said:


> Fox, please don't take anything I say personally... I just get passionate sometimes... BUT, I will get a 2x12, as a matter of fact I'll get two! I will put one in my basement, and one outside. I will measure them every day with my truck tape and I will keep a note book of the results. If I find it shrinks I will gladly eat my words. I'm man enough to admit when I'm wrong! Just so happens that the tree house I'm attempting to build for the past three years needs a couple of 12' 2x12's!
> 
> Sorry awilson0001  I'll stop now.


Its all ok fish guy. There is a reason why all those shanties in Tennesee are stocked with rough sawn timbers for the last forty years, just lying there, and it is not because they are not able to sell them. They are not aging that wood for nothing. The fact that you are going to experiment on the shrinkage of those 2 x 12 reveals much. I've nothing to add on that subject and you will see in time for yourself. The lumber you buy today is like hormone injected for growth, with tree rings 1/4" and more apart, ittsa joke when you compare them to the old lumber we are removing and tossing into the containers with three and more growth rings in that same 1/4". Be Sure wood shrinks.

I am not sure your point about engineers/ architects. But you assume much and might take credit without knowing all the facts or the people you assume have less experience. If you want to follow orders for the rest of your carreer thats your choice. I did for twenty years or so.

I can not sit here and type how "I" built a thousand dormers here on the Island but I can tell you I followed orders dictated by the plans given me and supervising three or four other carpenters we erected almost two thousand dormers and raised ridges. I went on my own in '83 and for the next ten years built some 200 new homes following orders to a tee and those homes were built according to plans, alls I did was follow orders. I've got the scars to prove it. I now draw plans for myself and other contractors and the only framing I do now is the one or two homes a year I get talked into and the finish carpentry that I can't resist. You make more designing the building than you do building it and gets fewer splinters.

I still get a laugh at how it takes 7 carpenters with air compressors two weeks to build what we 5 men did in one week swinging 20 oz. hammers.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

> I still get a laugh at how it takes 7 carpenters with air compressors two weeks to build what we 5 men did in one week swinging 20 oz. hammers.


You just quoted my grandfather!

We don't use air... only for the pin gun...

I was 8 in 83'


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

what size sump would i need for a 125 to not have to change the main tanks water/weight?


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

I use a 40 gallon sump on my 185 and I don't think it's big enough... Grab a cheap 55 on craigs list or at a fish auction.


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

i have a 55 handy, but i was wondering cause of space below my stand.

i cant fit a 55 below my tank.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

What about a rubbermaid container? The sump does not need to be a "tank"


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

hmmm... good thought. but i do not think any 55g container will fit.

one side of my stand has a shelf built into it. other ideas?


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Two rubbermaids... Stacked? Fill the bottom of that stand with as much as you can in my opinion. The more water volume the better...


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

a sump essentially raises the total gallons and makes it all more stable. can a sump be next to the stand?

i think i have an idea... rubs his paws together mischiefly... :roll:


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

awilson0001 said:


> a sump essentially raises the total gallons and makes it all more stable. can a sump be next to the stand?
> 
> i think i have an idea... rubs his paws together mischiefly... :roll:


A sump can be next to a tank, behind it, or a room or two away, connected by pipes. I knew a guy in Lorain who had two 300 gallon Rubbermaid livestock tanks in his basement as the sump for his 265 gallon saltwater tank. A large sump can serve one, several, or many tanks, but then you should have a regularly maintained UV as a final filtration stage to prevent diseases spreading from tank to tank.

If you remember the aquarium building at the old SeaWorld, the filtration for all those aquariums was in an inconspicuous building some distance away, connected by underground pipes.


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

cool, just like in pet stores.


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## iwade4fish (Jan 5, 2009)

awilson0001 said:


> opps sorry bout the caps. lol and the typos


glue and screw it ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

awilson0001 said:


> a sump essentially raises the total gallons and makes it all more stable. can a sump be next to the stand?
> 
> i think i have an idea... rubs his paws together mischiefly... :roll:


The wet/dry I'm not using right now comes with a slimline acrylic sump, fits under a standard 55 gal. cabinet stand.


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

just looked at sumps... do they need all those deviders?


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

All this talk about sumps prompted me to change out the sump tank for the 240 today... The original was a 55, then I made a box out of wood lined with drylok, that leaked a year later, so I lined it with a pond liner temporarily. So I went and got a rubbermaid 40 gallon stock tank this afternoon and replaced it. It's too small but will work again... Temporarily... I want to get the 110 gallon stock tank but it's two four inches too long. It flexes but a whimped out to save $20... The 40 gallon stock tank from tractor supply was $30, the 110 was $50...


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

awilson0001 said:


> just looked at sumps... do they need all those deviders?


In fresh water, not the bubble trapping divider. Microbubbles are not much concern in a fresh water tank. But no point in removing it.


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

well, this post is about my stand making noise. here is what i have found.

its definately related to water changes. it didnt make a peep till i did a water change recently.
it was only maybe 30% so it barely made any noise.

when doing a larger water change, say 50 or 60%, it will pop and creak as i drain and fill, followed by possible additional settling.

if i do like 70% or so it will pop and creak as well, but this is when it seems to be followed by the louder pops and/or creaks, sometimes a few days later.

i guess the noise is directly related to the wood expanding and contracting from weight?

hehe i think i like doing the smaller water changes, less noise.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

If it is doing it during the time you are draining or filling, it does not seem like it is weather related at all. For a second item it would seem maybe the top or bottom might have a slight bow in the lumber of the frame. I can't imagine the fasteners moving up to pop when draining and then down when refilling. Most anythiong is possible sometimes, though. Any chance of a piece of trim near the bottom riding on carpeting that may be moving? The next time you have it drained down enough to pop, you might try putting your weight on corners of the stand to see if you can locate one place that makes the noise. Kind of like hunting phantoms if it doesn't do it often. Just for luck, you might try putting carpenter's glue on a putty knife and running it between any places where the skin and framing have enough gap to let the knife in. A poorman's after the fact glue but it might help.


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

i never said it was weather lol. that was when it got kinda off subject.

the noise is too loud for a trim piece to make. let me try to explain...grab your opcorn: and here goes...

you ever sit on a picnic table and your weight makes it "pop"?

kinda like that... um, like the friction between two pieces of wood that are held together very tightly but possibly not screwed directly together. they just happen to be butted together possibly. when you apply pressure to one in a way that pushs it across the other. it has resistance till the weight becomes too much and it will give like a creak/pop noise as it settles from weight. when you remove the pressure, the natural pressure of the wood will spring back(well, at least it will till it wears to fit lol). when it goes back, it again will make a noise as it moves against the other piece.

maybe one piece i cut was just a matter of a 1/16" off from one next to it. when the weight of the tank comes onto the one thats a hair longer, it may cause it to shift, even if it is very slight.
that much shear force can make a loud noise when the weight over comes the friction.

i now bow... hope you enjoyed my performance :dancing: i know youre :drooling: for more, but your opcorn: is all gone. wait, dont be :x ... heres some more opcorn:

wow, storytime can be fun... :lol:


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Although it's geared toward saltwater, tonight's program at the Cleveland Metroparks Zoo on sumps and refugiums should give you more information than anyone needs to know on the topic of Sumps And Refugiums.

http://c-sea.org/

I'd like to go, but I may be still getting items together to take to the Great Lakes tropical fish and aquarium equipment auction Saturday morning at Euclid Square Mall.


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

:fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: 
:fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: 
:fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: 
:fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: 
:fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish:
:fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: 
:fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: 
:fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish:

wow thats a lot of fishies


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

awilson0001 said:


> :fish: :fish: :fish:
> ....wow thats a lot of fishies


Does that mean you were at the auction? I was the 6' 1" 275 pound auction runner with white hair, where there still is hair, that is. Did you buy anything? I brought in the marble angels and the half black smoky angels.


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

i have never been to an auction before and just stopped in to see what it was all about...

did not buy anything. i have been talking to a manager at a pet store that is well into the shell dwellers and stuff. he tells me when auctions are comin and he always helps with questions too. nice fella.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Welcome to the auctions! There is a calendar that includes most of the fish auctions, conventions, and annual shows in the US.

http://www.kingfishservices.net/?page_i ... ct&yr=2010

In October there are fish auctions coming up in Medina, Detroit, Youngstown, Erie PA, and Cincinnati, just to mention the ones in or right by Ohio.

There are always bargains, especially right at the first few items at the beginning, right after a new auctioneer steps up (that's when I pay the most attention and get my best deals), and at the very end, if the crowd starts thinning out early. If the tables of fish and equipment begin to thin out before the crowd does, I've seen the prices go up at the end, but the normal situation is for the last items to be the final bargains, except for a few coveted items that zoom up.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

If you want some deals go to Medinas auction...


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

TheFishGuy said:


> If you want some deals go to Medinas auction...


True. Medina is often more a buyer's auction than a seller's auction, but since most buyers are sellers and most sellers are buyers, it evens out either way the auction goes. Lorain's auction usually has lowball prices too, but you never know from auction to auction or bag of fish to bag of fish. I'm always surprised by how some of my most valuable item sell lower than I'd expect but some cheapie, like a common loach I bred in Cleveland tap water cut with just a little rain water would sell for several times more than you could buy the wild imported adults for at any pet shop. Go figure.

You can get deals at any fish auction. The last great one I got was a young breeding pair of discus for $100 at the Tallmadge auction. The seller had put them in a styro in a full box bag, but had picked a broken styro shipping box in a wet cardboard shell. When you are selling, presentation is important. The nasty looking box helped to conceal from the casual onlooker what was in it. Then when the auctioneer asked for an opening bid of $100, up went my hand. Sometimes if you start the auction where the auctioneer asks, it looks like a power bid and no one ups you. At that Euclid auction, many times the auctioneer had to back down from his asked starting bid, but when he got a bid, it quickly went higher than the starting bid first asked for. My all-time best bargain was decades ago, a trio of albino J. ornatus back when they were $30-40 a piece with a long waiting line. The auctioneers had just changed and he started with this bag of cinnamon julies. No one else bid, even though several people came to the auction because of this one bag. None of them were paying attention. One of them was sitting next to me and was so busy talking, he didn't even see the runner bring me the fish , and then he caught sight of it in my styro, and his conversation was suddenly forgotten. I got a pair from them and ended up selling my first thousand fry for $12 each and the last thousand fry, at an ever dropping price until nearly full grown ones were $2. I fed live rotifers to the fry, and live daphnia to the adults and older fry. It is a lot of time, investment, and work to raise Daphnia magna and even more to raise Brachionus plicatus since the only food for them then was marine green water which you had to raise using laboratory techniques. So I got rid of the julies and moved on to other fish. It's also good to go a distance for auctions, since the type of fish you are breeding and the types in their area can be different. You may buy a few fish uncommon in your area and what you sell may go higher than at home, enough to cover the extra travel expenses. That's why annual conventions of national specialty groups are good places to buy and sell, in auctions and for now in room sales. Some conventions still have selling rooms where people set up fish tanks and sell out of their rooms. Unfortunately as security awareness increases, hotels are going to a system where the elevators will only open at the floor your room is on. Instead of having floor buttons you can push, you insert your room key.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

And don't bring the bedbugs home in your luggage!!!


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

PfunMo said:


> And don't bring the bedbugs home in your luggage!!!


 Simple solution. Just find the K-Mart nearest the conventions and sleep in your car in their parking lot.

How bad are those bed bugs? I hear that now when you discard a mattress, you have put it in a special plastic bag that can be sealed. Not that any of this has anything to do with fixing a creak in a wooden DIY stand. Speaking of which, have any fixes been tried?


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

fixes? what fixes?

i was just worried about the noises. i think its been determined that it is just from pressure while emptying and filling.

i am looking into making a sump, but my main thing was just being sure the noise wasnt from the stand coming apart.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

awilson0001 said:


> fixes? what fixes?
> 
> i was just worried about the noises. i think its been determined that it is just from pressure while emptying and filling.
> 
> i am looking into making a sump, but my main thing was just being sure the noise wasnt from the stand coming apart.


I guess the sump was one of the "fixes" I was wondering about.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

*Mcdaphnia*

Have we met?


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

TheFishGuy said:


> *Mcdaphnia*
> 
> Have we met?


 Were you at the Perch festival in Fairport Harbor on its last day this year? Or any of the fish club auctions? I'll try to wear the perch festival tee to the next auction I go to, probably the Youngstown one. There used to be an ASHco Aquarium Club. Were you in it?


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

The only club I belong to is the O.C.A. I will be speaking in at the next G.A.A.S. Meeting though. Too busy lately to make it to any auctions this year.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

TheFishGuy said:


> The only club I belong to is the O.C.A. I will be speaking in at the next G.A.A.S. Meeting though. Too busy lately to make it to any auctions this year.


 I'll meet you then! You aren't the same guy on Monster Fish who was asking about my empty 300 gallon tank and stand I'm moving out?


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

My name on monster fish is TheFishGuy also... Honestly, I don't know, I talk to people about tanks all the time LOL


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

TheFishGuy said:


> My name on monster fish is TheFishGuy also... Honestly, I don't know, I talk to people about tanks all the time LOL


 It is someone else then, different "handle".


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

okay, is it possible the tank was just settling? how long does it take a new tank to settle and such?

reason being is i have done a few water changes the past couple of weeks, probably 60 to 70% and have not had any noise.

the stand is fairly new, i built it in january and febuary of this year.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

awilson0001 said:


> okay, is it possible the tank was just settling? how long does it take a new tank to settle and such?
> 
> reason being is i have done a few water changes the past couple of weeks, probably 60 to 70% and have not had any noise.
> 
> the stand is fairly new, i built it in january and febuary of this year.


A new tank or stand should not settle or such. But some designs or choices in wood grain and bow might. Check the fastenings/joints you made and mark across any you suspect with a crayon to see if there is continuing movement.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Stands go through the same movement as houses only on a smaller scale. Heating and cooling often makes houses pop loud enough to hear. It may just be that in the enclosed room you are hearing a normal sound. I would not worry at all about the stand coming apart. It is very rare for a floor to be totally and truly smooth and level so it may have been just a small problem that has cured itself.


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