# Atlantis Tropical Fish Hatchery



## Hthundar (Apr 10, 2009)

Anyone every been there?


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## sevmeera (Aug 8, 2009)

yep, very good selection of Tanganyikan fish, not as many but good quality Malawi fish. Don't expect a polished, retail type atmosphere, it is a very purpose built facility focusing on breeding and shipping fish. All of the fish I saw were in very good shape, I didn't see one dead fish in the whole place. The people are very friendly and helpful and can usually sex any fish you might want. They will also show you how to vent a fish if you ask nicely!


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## CrabbyMatty (Jun 30, 2009)

100% recommended!!!


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## Hthundar (Apr 10, 2009)

I was thinking about making a trip there. You guys know if they carry more live stock than whats on the website?


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## CrabbyMatty (Jun 30, 2009)

You can call them directly. They are very friendly people. As I recall they have more in stock than is on the list, but be aware that many fish you'll see there aren't for sale as they have several tanks with their own breeders.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

reviews section guys, it's a great tool, please use it


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## CrabbyMatty (Jun 30, 2009)

cjacob316 said:


> reviews section guys, it's a great tool, please use it


Relax a little.


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## bfisher88 (Dec 13, 2009)

He is asking about their facilities. Come on now.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Check this out. Lots of good feedback.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

guys this generally is a violation of user policy, that's all i'm saying

and if you want to ask specifics, you could easily pm the users who have reviewed the retailer


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## CrabbyMatty (Jun 30, 2009)

cjacob316 said:


> guys this generally is a violation of user policy, that's all i'm saying
> 
> and if you want to ask specifics, you could easily pm the users who have reviewed the retailer


Leave it to the Mods. And by the way, I had left feedback for Atlantis in the Retailers Review section on two occasions in the past. :wink:


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## Hthundar (Apr 10, 2009)

Thanks guys for all the info!


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## justin323 (Nov 29, 2006)

I wonder if the mods realize how many people leave because they don't want this sites sponsors pushed upon them. It's pretty bad here, and one of the reasons I left, I just thought I'd poke my head in to see what changed. Not much.


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## CaseyV (Jan 2, 2010)

Wow I don't know who cjacob316 is, nor do I know the OP but all they did was post a thread asking a simple question, nothing to warrant such a snipey reply!

ANYWAY!! it's times like these I wish I lived in the US, you guys seem to have BRILLIANT aquariums over there! we have diddly squat


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

justin323 said:


> I wonder if the mods realize how many people leave because they don't want this sites sponsors pushed upon them. It's pretty bad here, and one of the reasons I left, I just thought I'd poke my head in to see what changed. Not much.


You're unable to ignore it? lol


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## justin323 (Nov 29, 2006)

I did for a couple years, but it gets old when you just want other peoples opinions. Not to mention locking of threads. That's actually something I have never liked about this site, we should be able to discuss any part of our hobby here including the best places to get fish and supplies.
Yes I know about the terms of service, I just think it's wrong, and I know what the mods are going to tell me. It's pretty easy to change policy guys and I think this would greatly benefit from it.


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## shaguars7 (Apr 12, 2009)

justin323 said:


> I wonder if the mods realize how many people leave because they don't want this sites sponsors pushed upon them. It's pretty bad here, and one of the reasons I left, I just thought I'd poke my head in to see what changed. Not much.


I am not too sure what this member is talking about in this statement. I have been a member for the last 10 months or so...and not once have i been pressured or even pursueded to buy or not buy anything....I do think the reveiw section is well worth the time...but i also think this is a fairly reasonable question.....it is more relatable to read from a thread comment than just reviews from years and months in the past. On that note...buy locally if you can....most lfs are a joke for a reason...noone buys from them!


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## bfisher88 (Dec 13, 2009)

shaguars7 said:


> justin323 said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder if the mods realize how many people leave because they don't want this sites sponsors pushed upon them. It's pretty bad here, and one of the reasons I left, I just thought I'd poke my head in to see what changed. Not much.
> ...


I think you have things backwards. They are a joke in the beginning, not from the lack of customers but from lack of knowledge, stock, etc. Most of them, anyway.


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## eric (Jan 1, 2002)

justin323 said:


> That's actually something I have never liked about this site, we should be able to discuss any part of our hobby here including the best places to get fish and supplies.
> Yes I know about the terms of service, I just think it's wrong, and I know what the mods are going to tell me.


Of course this site encourages this type of discussion. There is a whole section dedicated to it http://www.cichlid-forum.com/reviews/index.php It's even promoted with advertising on this site.

Have you done any reviews? The moderators here don't have any control over the Reviews section. Isn't it better to have a structured place to conduct Reviews and not let one loudmouth bad-talk or coyly promote a business by plastering their posts repetitiously? Isn't it better to have a aquatic conversation without someone injecting in a unwanted promo? Isn't it nice to see a place where reviews are consolidated and you don't have to depend on the opinion of a couple frequent posters? 6554 reviews on retailers and counting!



justin323 said:


> It's pretty easy to change policy guys and I think this would greatly benefit from it.


 It is a pretty easy policy change, but why would you want to??


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## FlyHigh (Nov 15, 2009)

bfisher88 said:


> I think you have things backwards. They are a joke in the beginning, not from the lack of customers but from lack of knowledge, stock, etc. Most of them, anyway.





justin323 said:


> On that note...buy locally if you can....most lfs are a joke for a reason...noone buys from them!


You're saying Local Fish Stores are a joke or do you mean the local branch of your big chain store? Local fish stores are typically your individually owned and operated stores dedicated to nothing but fish and are usually pretty knowledgeable. The big chain pet stores I would agree with are very hit or miss whether you get a knowledgeable sales person. They typically all have only the same dozen or so types of cichlids too.

Justin wrote buy locally if you can and also that local fish stores are a joke. That's contradictory so I assume you meant chain store not LFS right?


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## sevmeera (Aug 8, 2009)

I think the reviews section is great, but sometimes you want a direct answer to a direct question, i.e. "how is the selection of Alto. Compressiceps?", or "do they carry tanganyikan eels?" (which they do,lol) I don't think it's a reason for anyone to get upset, people could just as well forego advice on disease and stocking a tank and instead just read the library articles and cookie cutter set-up sections. I was always taught that any question is a good one.


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## Hthundar (Apr 10, 2009)

Wow this thread turned into a complete joke :roll:


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

yeah it turned into a thread about bashing the forum and mods, it's not the way to go about things


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## scrubjay (Oct 25, 2009)

sevmeera said:


> I think the reviews section is great, but sometimes you want a direct answer to a direct question, i.e. "how is the selection of Alto. Compressiceps?", or "do they carry tanganyikan eels?" (which they do,lol) I don't think it's a reason for anyone to get upset, people could just as well forego advice on disease and stocking a tank and instead just read the library articles and cookie cutter set-up sections. I was always taught that any question is a good one.


I think if you read the reviews for the fish stores, you can get an idea of what their stock is like. A store with a good reputation probably will not want to jeopardize that. Check their websites for their current stocklist if you want to know their selection of comps or if they have eels. It seems to me that several of the good shops advertise when they have fish that are particularly nice and sometimes even post photos of the ones for sale.

The policy isn't just a random rule to annoy people. A good website needs $$$ to keep it going, and that is what the sponsors are for. There may very well be an agreement between the site owners and the sponsors that discussion of particular stores be kept solely in the reviews section. Note what is says on the sponsor page: "Thanks to the many companies and individuals who have helped to make this site what it is. *Without them, Cichlid-Forum.com would not be possible.*" It seems like a reasonable request to me.

now that I've bored everyone to death, can we move on to another subject? :zz:


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## eric (Jan 1, 2002)

sevmeera said:


> I think the reviews section is great, but sometimes you want a direct answer to a direct question, i.e. "how is the selection of Alto. Compressiceps?", or "do they carry tanganyikan eels?"


Those are questions best answered the the retailer, not members here.


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## CrabbyMatty (Jun 30, 2009)

eric said:


> sevmeera said:
> 
> 
> > I think the reviews section is great, but sometimes you want a direct answer to a direct question, i.e. "how is the selection of Alto. Compressiceps?", or "do they carry tanganyikan eels?"
> ...


Why didn't you include the entire quote from the poster? Using your logic and aplying it to the point they made would seem to make perfect sense. Let's just close down all discussion forums and refer to the library for all answers to our questions. Or call every manufacturer for any product we might have a question about. Sound good? I didn't think so.


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## Geddonight (Aug 7, 2009)

I love the reviews section. It helped me to decide which company to use for my first mail order of fish.

At the same time, the reviews section feels very static, cold, and uninviting. Moreover, the rating system confuses me. I read individual comments that give an overall poor account of a retailer, yet since the review displays an average "smiley", I can't see what each reviewer thought about all the aspects of the store.

Another issue I have with the reviews section is it takes a considerable time for reviews & new store recommendations to be posted. It took about 6 months for my girlfriend's reviews/recommendations to be posted. That's pretty poor turnaround.

I'm not here to bash any moderator or cichlid-forum. Great people helping to keep a great website running. I ~do~ think we should have a forum discussion area about retailers and the concerns of purchasing fish. I realize that often a review would get buried, which is why the reviews section is still needed, but close-to-real-time encouragement/discouragement by forum members could be very helpful to people on the fence.

The point? The reviews section is a helpful tool, but it's even more faceless than the forums. When we're talking spending a considerable amount of money on fish (usually $60 just for shipping), that extra reassurance doesn't hurt.


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## CrabbyMatty (Jun 30, 2009)

Geddonight said:


> I love the reviews section. It helped me to decide which company to use for my first mail order of fish.
> 
> At the same time, the reviews section feels very static, cold, and uninviting. Moreover, the rating system confuses me. I read individual comments that give an overall poor account of a retailer, yet since the review displays an average "smiley", I can't see what each reviewer thought about all the aspects of the store.
> 
> ...


Extremely well said. :thumb:


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## scrubjay (Oct 25, 2009)

scrubjay said:


> The policy isn't just a random rule to annoy people. A good website needs $$$ to keep it going, and that is what the sponsors are for. There may very well be an agreement between the site owners and the sponsors that discussion of particular stores be kept solely in the reviews section. Note what is says on the sponsor page: "Thanks to the many companies and individuals who have helped to make this site what it is. *Without them, Cichlid-Forum.com would not be possible.*" It seems like a reasonable request to me.


What part of "this is a website, not a democracy" don't you understand?









The owners of this site ask that you respect their relationship with the site's sponsors by keeping discussion of vendors and manufacturers in one designated section.

If you can't deal with that small request, nobody is stopping you from creating your own blog to discuss online fish sources. It takes about five minutes to set one up and it is free.


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

I personally find the reviews section extremely helpful. I have posted quite a number of reviews there myself and consult it when necessary. I wish more people posted reviews. Some of those posted are quite old. At one point I tried to encourage folks to go and give reviews to replenish that section i.e. bring it up to date, but I don't recall a tidal wave of support for that idea!!


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## CrabbyMatty (Jun 30, 2009)

I'm sure the Owner/Sponsor of Atlantis would be thrilled to read the positive feedback that was shared here in this thread as well as in the Reviews section. Even if they never read it here odds are they would have benefited from another new customer's purchase. Having it all consolidated in one place is a great idea and I've written many comments in the Reviews section for many retailers, but it shouldn't be considered a crisis when someone innocently slips up and asks a question in another forum and another hobbyist just trying to be helpful lends some help. This thread would have ended after just a few comments many days ago had it not been for someone trying to pretend they were the forum judge, jury and executioner and I'm not talking about the moderator. One or two of us were only trying to be helpful and I believe we were. With that said, I do understand and try my best to adhere to the website's policies and will continue to do so.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Geddonight said:


> I ~do~ think we should have a forum discussion area about retailers and the concerns of purchasing fish.


 I am not ad Admin of this site, so this is number6's opinion, not C-F's opinion... 8)

I don't disagree Geddonnight, might be a good change... but let me play devil's advocate.

none of us have the entire story of why the site was built the way it was... the history, the experiential knowledge... so why is it so easy to criticize or find something lacking? and are we sure that our opinion is actually new? or valid? Maybe our opinions have been tried before, found lacking by a larger majority than us?

Perhaps the way it is IS the correct way for right here, right now, on this 2010, no-membership fee forum? 
:fish:


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

Number6 said:


> Geddonight said:
> 
> 
> > I ~do~ think we should have a forum discussion area about retailers and the concerns of purchasing fish.
> ...


It really wouldn't hurt to make the review section a little more intuitive. I mean, every long running website needs a functional update every couple years.


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## Geddonight (Aug 7, 2009)

Scrubjay, with all due respect, there is _no_ discussion allowed in the reviews section.

Comments are allowed in the form of reviews.

Discussions require the ability for intercourse--the exchange of information with the ability to respond (as we are doing here). The reviews section allows no such exchange. It is purely one-sided.

Please refrain from using "discussion" so liberally.


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## Geddonight (Aug 7, 2009)

Number6 said:


> I don't disagree Geddonnight, might be a good change... but let me play devil's advocate.
> 
> none of us have the entire story of why the site was built the way it was... the history, the experiential knowledge... so why is it so easy to criticize or find something lacking? and are we sure that our opinion is actually new? or valid? Maybe our opinions have been tried before, found lacking by a larger majority than us?


A definite challenge is the forums seem to lack an "institutional memory". The Library, Profiles, and Reviews section all help to have collected knowledge. However, the Library is definitely showing its age, and it has no apparent peer review process. I've sent notification that several articles are outmoded, factually incorrect, or filled with poor advice. Yet the articles still remain.

For me, it isn't a casual "well, that stinks" and I move on situation. The bad advice posted in the library cost me a lot of money when I first started cichlids. It's a main reason why I'm not as active on this forum as I am on others--and to have my issues fall on deaf ears frustrates me even more.

It's very difficult for me to love the hobby so much, and value a resource such as this, but be very frustrated when it comes to wanting to see it bettered and improved, yet nothing changes.

This website may not be a democracy, but people do vote with their mice. If the site isn't as useful due to whatever challenge, it will decrease in popularity, and cease to be a valuable resource, which would be a tragedy.

If there isn't an opportunity for open and unhindered discourse, how can the site really improve to better serve the community? It's one of the only ways to avoid groupthink and stagnation.

Now, flat out whining and moaning isn't constructive at all, and I hope I don't come across that way. I'm all about finding problems and thinking up solutions. For instance, it would be really awesome to have a way to provide feedback on the articles--perhaps a widgit that allows readers to "tic" whether the article was helpful or not. Then articles which are unpopular/incorrect can be reviewed by the community in such a fashion.

It's very easy to be rude and disrespectful on the faceless internet. I'm very pleased that this discussion has remained so cordial.


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## scrubjay (Oct 25, 2009)

ugh, I just deleted my reply to you by accident :roll: 
I think that if anyone wants to volunteer time to writing new profiles or updating library articles, the energy and time is probably welcome. I was hoping to do some writing myself. I'm on my twelfth day of work in a row without a day off, so life just sometimes gets in the way.

I do notice there is a Feedback section that was set up in 2006 and there has apparently never been a single post? That might be a good place for discussing ideas to improve the site or fixing problems with profiles, etc.

The cookie cutters pose their own peculiar problem. I'm sure everyone has seen a thread where a person brand new to African cichlids is trying to figure out how to stock a tank, gets some very reasonable suggestions, and then someone feels the pressing need to tell about how they had no problem keeping peacock bass with tropheus in a 10-gallon tank with no filter. :lol:


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## Geddonight (Aug 7, 2009)

For better or worse, the feedback section is restricted to administrator posts only. (upside: few long rambling/ranting/whining posts. Downside: said posts get moved into General African Cichlid Discussion :thumb: )

The one thread in the section does have the link to fill out suggestions (which I have used multiple times and have, to the credit of CF admins, received a reply in a fairly timely fashion). Most times it's suggestions for improvements (such as how to make the trading post more user friendly, etc.).


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

the only issue i have with the reviews section, is not being able to search mail order retailers by location

i still don't get everyone's problem with simply sending a pm to a user who has rated the retailer/product, this way you make sure you will get replies from someone who has actually used the reviewed product, this is a much more direct approach to your concerns, rather than randomly posting a topic that may never be viewed. you can pretty much ask whatever you want in the pm, get as many details as you need, etc.

it's very simple guys


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## Geddonight (Aug 7, 2009)

Sounds silly, but I never thought of that, cjacob316. So perhaps it's not that people have something against PMs; it's just that we don't think about them? I always skimmed over the username, even thought some were anonymous.

What about old reviews? How reflective is your experience to be if you last did business with a company 4-5 years ago? How do we as a community evaluate new businesses that have formed before they're posted to the reviews section (It took several months for the stores my girlfriend listed as existing in South Dakota to show up)?


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## CrabbyMatty (Jun 30, 2009)

cjacob316 said:


> the only issue i have with the reviews section, is not being able to search mail order retailers by location
> 
> i still don't get everyone's problem with simply sending a pm to a user who has rated the retailer/product, this way you make sure you will get replies from someone who has actually used the reviewed product, this is a much more direct approach to your concerns, rather than randomly posting a topic that may never be viewed. you can pretty much ask whatever you want in the pm, get as many details as you need, etc.
> 
> it's very simple guys


Give it a rest already dude. It isn't for you to "get it".


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## bulldogg7 (Mar 3, 2003)

local forums are usually a good start to find recent info on local breeders, farms and importers


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

does crabby reflect your attitude? sure seems like it

it might not be for me to get it, but it is for you and everyone in this forum to obey the rules.



> What about old reviews? How reflective is your experience to be if you last did business with a company 4-5 years ago? How do we as a community evaluate new businesses that have formed before they're posted to the reviews section (It took several months for the stores my girlfriend listed as existing in South Dakota to show up)?


this is where what someone else said earlier comes into play. the reviews section is only as good as we make it, it's our responsibility to use them in order for them to work. If we don't update reviews then we aren't doing them justice. this site doesn't have to change, the way we use it does. if they want us to use the reviews section for us to use this site for free, then we should do it, plain and simple.

this post has done something for me, it made me realize that i should be more active and descriptive in my reviews. and i plan to. it's our responsibility to give good reviews, as much as it is to give good advice


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

cjacob316 said:


> does crabby reflect your attitude? sure seems like it
> 
> it might not be for me to get it, but it is for you and everyone in this forum to obey the rules.
> 
> ...


You should never mini-mod on the forums, its disrespectful to the mods as well as the posters (I know I've done it to on occasion). Also, you seem to have missed the part where some of the posters were calling for a discussion of the retailers rather than just a review section. The issue with the review section is that it is out of date and the submitted reviews don't show up with any regularity.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

you missed where i stated we should keep it up to date, i don't think i missed anything

i see where the mods stated that it's beyond their control, i see where they stated this is how the site was set up. i see where the reviews section is, and i see the rules. that's what i see. if you want to complain about the rules, this is not the place to do it. all of your complaining about how this site is run is not going to do a thing to change the site. further more, it's not going to make the reviews section any better to complain about them, if you have an issue with out of date reviews, then update them

I would love to see a post about filters two years after they bought it stating how well it's still running. I would love to read posts about every purchase someone makes from a breeder.

the tool to get product reviews is there, without spamming the forums with threads like this that just turn into arguments.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

cjacob316 said:


> you missed where i stated we should keep it up to date, i don't think i missed anything
> 
> i see where the mods stated that it's beyond their control, i see where they stated this is how the site was set up. i see where the reviews section is, and i see the rules. that's what i see. if you want to complain about the rules, this is not the place to do it. all of your complaining about how this site is run is not going to do a thing to change the site. further more, it's not going to make the reviews section any better to complain about them, if you have an issue with out of date reviews, then update them
> 
> ...


The review section could use an overhaul, I don't think anyone denies that. :lol:


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

obviously if i'm going to sit here and run my mouth i need to back it up

so I just finished adding some reviews and editing some old ones, tried to be detailed and i hope they help someone


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## Geddonight (Aug 7, 2009)

Urm... you know, this sounds really daft... but where are the forum rules? I can't say that I've actually ever read them; they're not readily apparent anywhere in the Discussion Tab (the forum index). I would expect them to be under the "forum info" header...

But, perhaps to return from a baffled tangent, Cichlid Forum is an aquatic information hub. It is a tool for us to use and a place where we can share ideas. The whole point is for every user to "get it". If a section, tool, or function of this website isn't moderately intuitive/friendly to its users, then it fails in its role.

Our job as community members is to help make CF fulfill its role to the best of our knowledge, skills, and abilities. Hopefully we can simultaneously minimize the kvetching.

Jacob's got the right of it though--I'm going to fill out a couple reviews myself. I still believe that the review section isn't the best and only option we have to help our community find and enjoy quality retailers.

Cheers!


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## scrubjay (Oct 25, 2009)

At the top of the forum section
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=125193


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

I have a question... why is it that users can not create new topics in the feedback and suggestions section of the forum? That would be the perfect place for this type of discussion, but when trying to create a new topic, it says that new topics can only be created by moderators. It seems a little offputting considering the locked, stickied post in the feedback forum says "we welcome your feedback and suggestions".

Edit: hope I didn't sound snide. The reason I asked because reading through this thread makes it aparent to me that what this site needs is a wiki. It would be the perfect format for the library and profile sections at least. Also, it could replace the "your tanks" section, because users could create their own wiki page entries. Another forum I visit uses it really well. It would be perfect for this application as well.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

The feedback section was open at one point about four or five years ago. It became a place for a minority of people with agendas to continually voice them and it became a problem to manage. We do appreciate feedback and suggestions, that is genuine, but at the same time the owners of the site are the ones who make the ultimate decision on how things are run. There will always be a minority of voices who believe they should be telling others how to do things, without the knowledge as to why they are done in a certain manner. Heck, I haven't always agreed with some decisions, but then after time they actually did make sense.

There are many things that could improve this site. More profiles, more pictures, more articles, it goes on forever. But, everybody who works on this site does so on their own time. This isn't someones job, everyone has families and jobs, and volunteers to makes this place as good as a resource as it is. Life just gets in the way. We are always open to submissions in articles, or rewriting an existing one, or suggestions. This is simply a resource for cichild hobbyists, by other cichlid hobbyists, and overall I think a pretty good one.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Fogelhund said:


> The feedback section was open at one point about four or five years ago. It became a place for a minority of people with agendas to continually voice them and it became a problem to manage. We do appreciate feedback and suggestions, that is genuine, but at the same time the owners of the site are the ones who make the ultimate decision on how things are run. There will always be a minority of voices who believe they should be telling others how to do things, without the knowledge as to why they are done in a certain manner. Heck, I haven't always agreed with some decisions, but then after time they actually did make sense.
> 
> There are many things that could improve this site. More profiles, more pictures, more articles, it goes on forever. But, everybody who works on this site does so on their own time. This isn't someones job, everyone has families and jobs, and volunteers to makes this place as good as a resource as it is. Life just gets in the way. We are always open to submissions in articles, or rewriting an existing one, or suggestions. This is simply a resource for cichild hobbyists, by other cichlid hobbyists, and overall I think a pretty good one.


I understand what you're saying. And I certainly understand time and resource issues. I have a job and a family and responsibilities myself. A wiki actually helps with the time thing once it is set up - it gives the users more direct control over the addition/updating of content without funneling through the admins or moderators. In a hobby such as fish keeping, information is constantly growing and changing. A wiki is the perfect avenue because it is fluid and flexible and can grow and change with the hobby in a natural way.

But I'm certainly not just trying to "tell others how to do things". I love this site and the resources it contains. I really feel like a wiki would take this site to the next level, but if I'm speaking out of turn, I do apologize.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

The main issue I would see with a Wiki type resource, is controlling who puts information in it. It isn't all that uncommon for people to be misinformed on certain topics, and what happens when those people become active posters to such a project.


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## sevmeera (Aug 8, 2009)

I think this has actually been an entertaining and productive discourse on the issues at hand, which is the best argument for this type of discussion to be allowed. Just my opinion, that being said, if we are to continue to post and take advantage of the resources available here, I have no problem with abiding to the rules set forth by admin. Whether we like them or not is a separate issue, as long as there is a place for people to voice these opinions and make suggestions as to improve the site. After all, without the members the site would just be a reference. The mods are just trying to follow the rules as well, it's really not fair to aim criticism at them.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Fogelhund said:


> The main issue I would see with a Wiki type resource, is controlling who puts information in it. It isn't all that uncommon for people to be misinformed on certain topics, and what happens when those people become active posters to such a project.


I've been thinking a lot about this. My first thought was that you shouldn't limit access to a wiki contribution because it kind of defeats the purpose. It would not be ideal if there was misinformation on the topic, but here are some considerations:

-This forum may contain some uninformed people, and sometimes they share their thoughts in a response to someones question. Almost always, this gets corrected by someone more knowledgeable. I would expect the same thing to happen in wiki articles. If bad information is given, it can be easily corrected.

-One of the arguments for the review section is that questions, reviews, and comments on LFS, retailers, etc become buried in the forum so future users can not find the information. The same point can be extended to forum topics. Some questions get asked repeatedly, and some of those questions I'm sure could be covered in a wiki article. Similarly, sometimes there are some very good Tank journal threads that disappear into the abyss of the forum, while they could be preserved in a Tank journal article in the wiki which could be organized a lot better than a thread anyways.

-This is not meant to be an insult to the site or anyone involved, but there is some outdated and misinformation in some of the library articles anyways. It was said that anyone is welcome to rewrite articles, or submit new articles, but I think a Wiki format would encourage more people to be willing to correct errors and submit new articles because it is user friendly with a set procedure, rather than writing something, figuring out who to send it to and how (pm, email?), and then wondering if its even going to be considered or ignored, etc.

-Participation: yes I've just explained how the wiki would promote participation, and now I'm going to argue how it also self-limits it. Firstly, I don't believe your average user is going to be submitting wiki articles and making revisisions to current articles. A lot of people come here, get answers they need, and then disappear until they have more questions. The people who are going to be participating in the Wiki will be the users who have a vested interest in this site. These will be people who have been here a while, and are likely to be here for a while longer as well. Odds are, these people will have been here long enough to learn accurate information, and will most likely only add or revise an article where they have the most knowledge. Also, there is a certain language to writing in a wiki. It takes a modest bit of knowledge to create a properly formatted wiki article. Those who take the time to create a proper wiki page are also more likely to fill it with accurate information.

-Problem users can be banned from editing the wiki. There may be people who purposefully set out to vandalize pages, or spread misinformation. The most conflict will arrise when there are points that do not currently have a consensus - such as how manny ppm ammonia to use when fishless cycling - or points where a minority believes one thing, while the majority believes something else - such as the minimum size tank for keeping oscars. In those situations, a compromise should be reached where both sides are acknowledged. If someone continues to cause problems by continually removing opposing viewpoints, that would be grounds for a ban as well.

-The final consideration: the internet disclaimer. The internet has been around long enough now that everybody should know that you can't trust everything you read on the internet. Its always the users choice to decide what to believe and make the informed decision. This is true for everything about this site as it is currently, from the library, to the profiles, to the reviews, to the forums themselves. This would be no different with the wiki. People know that wiki information can be put in by anyone, and that its not always 100% accurate. But I believe it can be an acceptable data point along the way to making an informed decision. (and to add in my own subjective experience, wikis are generally more accurate and well policed by their communities than they're typically given credit for).

And I just thought of a suggestion. Perhaps it would be possible to have a moderator review process for articles, and then put an administrative message at the top of articles saying whether or not they were reviewed by a moderator. Not that every article would need to be reviewed, but just so that readers could be aware of which articles are more trustworthy. For example, there may be 2 articles: one on the nitrogen cycle, and one on keeping an oscar in a 20g tank. Obviously in this example, the nitrogen cycle article can be moderator reviewed and given a seal of approval, while the oscar article would probably not be reviewed and endorsed. Just lets the reader know they can probably trust the nitrogen cycle article, but be cautious because the oscar article is probably only 1 guys experience.

So, there you have it. I don't know if its realistic to expect this site to have a wiki anytime soon, but there's my pro-wiki argument. I'll offer to do whatever I can to help out if it is decided to add one, but if not, I'll still be here utilizing the site resources as they are now available.


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## scrubjay (Oct 25, 2009)

Those are all really good points and ideas, Rhinox. I think wikis are a great way to "save the important stuff" because, like you say, sometimes great information gets buried and it's hard to find certain information using a search function. I wanted to set one up for our company for these reasons, but I have never built one. It would require some time and dedication to create one for the site, but I know the ideas in this thread are being considered. Appreciate you laying out all the pros and cons! :thumb:


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## Robtheheretic (Nov 14, 2009)

im new to this sit and im still working on setting up my first cichlid tank. for the most part i have found the libary evey usfull, but it does have holes and misleading info but when ever i have had question i would just make a new thread and usally i got an awser or two. the review section how ever for LFS has not helped out at all. i even found that some of the shops are no longer open. i do inderstand its up to the ppl using the site to update this section and soon as i have an oppion a some of the LFS i will post it.
i guess what im saying is why cant we just say im looking for a good shop can one point me the right dirction so we actully talk with ppl in the area, or at lest till the review section gets an over haul.
also i relize that there might be some thing between the sponers and the owners but if there good shops i dont see how this hurt them in fact it should help, cus living in norther va im not what i would say is a close enogh to any online store willing ship them this time of year, also i


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

This has been kicked around before and the problem I keep seeing with it is that you'll never get even the 'experts' to agree on everything. Misinformation is unfortunately part of the hobby. I would hesitate to establlish a 'final word' area within the forum. The forum is a place to hear different ideas and methods as a help in deciding the best way to do things for yourself. Look at the articles that are there now that we don't agree with. Change them so that 'we' agree with them and someone else will now disagree. The consensus could very well be very, very wrong. It'd be never ending. Changing the format to wiki or whatever won't resolve the problem of misinformation being spread IMHO. Once you try to establish a final word and start talking of banning those that disagree and become 'problematic', the forum is no longer useful, as it's ceased to be an open forum. I like the option of being able to put my .02 in, even when I know I'm in the majority and speaking against the consensus, so I could see me becoming one of these 'problem' people  . Please don't take that away and move us closer to 'group think'.

I'm not found it difficult to research topics using the search feature. Maybe topic categories would help. They could be OP assigned, and then corrected when necessary by mods.

But, this is all off topic as the OP was asking about a retailer. Whether feedback is posted in a thread or review, I don't see the difference. The usefullness or quality of it all depends on input from members. Don't complain to the mods, complain to the users that buy and don't post reviews. And if you have specific questions, the PM button is the way to go.


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## scrubjay (Oct 25, 2009)

I always do a lot of keyword searching before even asking a question on a forum; I haven't found the keyword search function to be lacking on this site, so I don't really see the need for topics. And I never base a decision on one article. I will often research important things for days or weeks before acquiring an animal or making important decisions or figuring out how best to do something. That is the beauty of the internet--pretty much everything is there right at your fingertips.

I think we can lay the "asking each other about vendors in the forum" to rest now, can't we? Everything has been pretty adequately explained in the thread.

:zz:


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I haven't found the keyword search function to be lacking on this site, so I don't really see the need for topics.


But maybe it'd be easier for others, so not even worth considering?



> I think we can lay the "asking each other about vendors in the forum" to rest now, can't we? Everything has been pretty adequately explained in the thread.


I only put that in so I wouldn't be accused of contributing to the straying off of topic. Now I'm told to stay off topic. Kind of funny. :lol:


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## scrubjay (Oct 25, 2009)

sorry, that was meant for The Heretic, not you!
I'm not sure what you mean by using "topics categories." :-? 
At a certain point, I think it becomes like herding cats :lol:


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## scdeb424 (Apr 24, 2008)

I agree that reviews of vendors are important & that we all should make an effort to add to the review section when a purchase is made.
I agree with the keyword search etc.
But if no one is allowed to ask a question for fear that it has been asked before what is the point of the forum? New ideas & solutions are out there and maybe the last time the question was asked those ideas weren't mentioned.
See how much we learned just from this post?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I'm not sure what you mean by using "topics categories


For instance, I may be looking for info on a particular species, so use the species name as the keywords. It'll bring back every thread where that species was mentioned. I may be looking for compatible tankmates, but the first ten threads returned mention the species in regards to breeding age or 'what did you buy today' or whatever. So, you end up wading through those threads. I can try adding 'compatible' and 'tankmates' as search terms, (I've done this), but if not used exactly that way in the thread, then no hits. The keywords could be optionally added by the poster. Some will use it, some not.


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## Hthundar (Apr 10, 2009)

Give this thread a rest all ready. Blah Blah Blah


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## bulldogg7 (Mar 3, 2003)

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... p?t=200395

There's also a "product reviews section" :roll: , is it really a violation to simply tell somebody where to find a certain product? Maybe all these talks about filters and food should be edited also.



gymdog said:


> where do you find these stones?


the answer was edited to "google it" :-?

It's just getting a little silly(er) around here.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

bulldogg7 said:


> It's just getting a little silly(er) around here.


 I do not find the rules to be the half that is getting sillier.

Again... you may not understand a rule, but that doesn't mean it's not valid. Try to look at both sides or else I agree with hthundar... this conversation is beating a dead horse.

On other forums that allow some discussion of local stores, I am constantly irritated at the fanboys who promote certain stores and the shills or others who try to bash same stores. Half the time the threads push actual conversations about cichlids/or relevant topic for that site to page 2 within a couple of hours because of all the "local" discussions that are useless to anyone not in that area. Online stores still fit the same boat... I really don't care to read posts about holey rock websites!!! So don't think that there is no one who likes things the way they are... the site is working quite well "as is" for a large number of visitors. Be as open to the possibility that the rules are there for a reason as people are being towards your ideas of their being room for improvement! 8)


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

We appreciate all the responses and feedback in this thread, they are quite well thought out. I don't believe that any further discussion ads anything of merit. If you have further comments or feedback, please feel free to contact me, or provide feedback through the Feedback and Suggestions submission

Thank You.


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