# Let me try this again... Help Please



## cichlids&amp;baseball (Dec 28, 2007)

I have noticed that my fish appear to have bloat... They are hiding a lot and have white stringy poop. I had lost one fish about a week ago. That is when i started paying more attention, Today though 2 more deaths.

The biggest problem is that i have no quarantine tank and i am going on vacation until after christmas on wednesday. What can I do?

I have a 125 gallon tank
in it are:
Otopharynx lithobates5/2
yellow labs6
tawain reef3/1
blue doulphins5
german reds5/2

I want to say my water is "okay" but thats not right so...

82 F
7.7 pH roughly
ammonia is near 0
nitrates and nitrites also near 0
i dont have any other tests

The tank was cycled with top fin bacterial supplement and was cycled for 6 weeks prior to adding fish

I have had the fish in the tank for roughly 8 weeks

I feed Wardley small floating pellets. I believe it is a grow formula

please click on my tanks link for any additional info or ask me


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

You are leaving tomorrow? Is someone caring for your tank while you're gone?

I'm a bit concerned about your test kits. You shouldn't show zero nitrates on a tank unless it's brand new, or heavily planted. Are your test kits liquid reagent or strips? (This is why we need more than a "my water parameters are good" kind of answer. :wink: )

What is your tank maintenance routine?

I'm also concerned about how you cycled the tank. Did you just add the bacterial supplement and let the tank sit without fish for 6 weeks? If so, the tank wasn't cycled, and would have cycled after you added the fish - and that can cause all kinds of health problems. I'm not a big fan of these "bacteria in a bottle" additives, and find they don't work well at all, except for BioSpira.

Did you monitor the parameters closely after adding fish? Did you ever get any readings besides zero?

I'm not a fan of Wardley foods, they aren't the best quality and I've seen people have problems using them.

White feces alone can indicate a number of things.

Did the fish that you lost stop eating? Become reclusive?

Poor water quality can also cause fish to hide. Without trusting your test kits, it's impossible to know what's going on. And, it's impossible to advise adding meds without knowing your true water quality.

I'm not sure you need meds, you may just have water problems, and your fish may have been affected by going through the cycling of the tank.

And, if you do need meds, how are you going to handle this being away? Do you have someone with any aquarium experience to care for them?

Can you get a second opinion on your water quality today? (Take a sample to your LFS.) I would do this ASAP, since you may need to do some serious water changes throughout the day.

Are you using a good dechlorinator with your water changes?

Let's get the answers to all these questions and take it from there. We may not be able to do much if you're leaving tomorrow.


----------



## cichlids&amp;baseball (Dec 28, 2007)

for my water testing its a liquid test kit. The reading are not exactly 0, but they are close. I do have a lot of plants in my tank, and it is only a few months old. I let it cycle with the "bacteria in a bottle" for 4 weeks then bought about 8 community fish that lived in there for 2-3 weeks.

As far as the fish not eating, its hard to tell... I mean they are young and there are about 30 of them.... they certainly as a group move slower and eat less, but for the most part they are all eating.

I will leave now and take a sample to my LFS... report back here asap


----------



## cichlids&amp;baseball (Dec 28, 2007)

someone is taking care of my tank, but experienced no. I can give him simple instructions though.


----------



## cichlids&amp;baseball (Dec 28, 2007)

my LFS said... and I quote "some of the best water I have seen" everything is very close to perfect.

I bought some all natural fungi and bacterial treatment that Ill use since it wont hurt anything


----------



## cichlids&amp;baseball (Dec 28, 2007)

also I use floral gro+ as a water conditioner


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Well, the problem with treating bloat (if you've read the two links below you'll know) is that water changes are key to any treatment you may use, and you aren't going to be there to do them.

I guess at this point I would go with Jungle Parasite Clear...It's the least harsh of the bloat treatments and you might pull it off without doing the necessary water changes. I would do a large water change today before leaving, giving the substrate a good vacuuming while you're at it.

For the JPC, you need to do 3 treatments, spaced 48 hours apart. Normally you would do a 25% water change prior to the 2nd and 3rd treatment, so if the person caring for your fish can do that, it would be great. They shouldn't be fed during treatment, and you should probably divide out the food for after treatment into seperate baggies or something so that the caretaker doesn't overfeed them. That is going to be real important if this is really bloat. You will also need to remove the carbon from your filtration if it is less than 2 weeks old, as it will remove the meds from the water as fast as you add them.

Good luck!


----------



## cichlids&amp;baseball (Dec 28, 2007)

ok.... so I am back... got back yesterday

I have a total loss of 14 fish from this.

So now that I am back and able, could someone explain the correct steps to curing bloat? or identifying which type of bloat it maybe?

Also, while on my trip I thought about this a lot.. which sucked.. but I realized that I had added a chinese algae eater to the tank about a week before this happened. I didnt think twice about it because it had been in my community tank for probably 6 months prior. I think though that the fish in there were just OK with it for whatever reason... He has since been removed... also all the dead fish that were hidden in the rocks and a lot of poop that was mixed up while i was gone.

All in all, I gave it a great cleaning and the water is about 70% full right now.


----------



## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Did you treat the tank with anything prior to leaving?

There is a lot of debate and discussion on just exactly what bloat is and what causes it. One of the most commonly held beliefs: Bloat is thought to be caused by internal flagellates. These flagellates reside harmlessly in the fish's intestine until the fish comes under some kind of stress which supresses its immune system. The flagellates increase dramatically in numbers and overwelm the fish. 
Symptoms of bloat typically go something like this: 
Fish starts spitting out food it previously ate without problem.
You may or may not notice long stringy white or clear feces. 
Fish may gasp/breath heavily. 
Fish will become reclusive or lethargic
Fish may become bloated in the belly area or emaciated looking. 
Symptoms usually take about a week to play out and typically no more than one or two fish will be affected at a time and there may be several days to a several weeks between occurances.

Some aquarist feel bloat is caused by an internal bacterial infection.

Luckily we don't need to know with 100% certainty exactly what causes bloat in order to treat it. 
All fish that have been exposed should be treated. Fish that are still eating can be treated with Metronidazole soaked food while fish who are no longer eating can be treated with Clout or Jungle Parasite Clear. Since Bloat may spread via healthy fish mouthing infected feces it's a good idea to perform more frequent partial water changes and gravel siphonings whenever bloat is suspected.

Having said all that--from what you've described I'm not 100% sure your fish had/have bloat. If they were eating a day before they died then it's unlikely that it was bloat.

Your ammonia has likely spiked with all the dead fish and waste. Do daily partial water changes with a declorinator that removes ammonia and detoxifies nitrite. (Amquel Plus and Prime are two good quality declorinators). Add aquarium salt, (sodium chloride) at the rate of 1-3 teaspoons per ten gallons to help detoxify nitrite.

How are your remaining fish?

Robin


----------



## cichlids&amp;baseball (Dec 28, 2007)

they all seem lethargic, most seem to be eating although spiting has been common. I have noticed the white stringy feces.

I think I will treat the entire tank for bloat.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I would also keep the Chinese algae eater out of the tank...

They are notorious for latching onto fish in an effort to suck the slime coat off of them. I've seen some pretty nasty wounds occur because of this.

And Robin has a good point on this possibly being something besides bloat...If they were eating right before they died, it probably _isn't_ bloat.

What I would do at this point is clean up the water, as Robin suggested, and keep an eye on things for a few days to determine what their current symptoms are.


----------



## cichlids&amp;baseball (Dec 28, 2007)

Alright I think its about time for an update.

so I did a 50% water change and a total clean removed everything from the tank (some of those rocks gotta weigh close to 50 lbs! not easy lifting them out of the tank). I actually left the biggest one in there. anyway, cleaned the **** out of my tank. with the water level down I figure there to be about 70 gallons of water in the tank. I dropped in 8 JPC tablets and left the water level there for 24 hours. Then I filled the tank up with water.

As for current symptoms:
My fish look better most of them are back up waiting for food when I walk by and seem happy again. I am very pleased to see that 

However, my yellow labs, I cannot say the same for. There were four left yesterday, three today. first death since my return. This one that died look like he was ready too. Stomach was sucked in and he was very lethargic. Also most of the labs are hiding a lot, I realize that could just be the species as well, although one hides in the corner behind a plant and doesnt move. Majority of the Labs wont eat, at least not the way they should be, but again, seems like that was always the case with my labs.

On a side note, my plants are very healthy and I very pleased with them. The anubias is all doing well, the java fern are producing seedlings and the valneseria are all shooting off sister plants!!


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

It is hard to say with the Yellow labs...Sometimes, if fish are too far gone when you start treatment, it won't help.

And, of course, you can always be treating for the wrong thing...But since the others were lethargic before the meds and improving now, I have to think you're doing something right.

You may just be dealing with the repurcussions of not treating immediately.


----------



## cichlids&amp;baseball (Dec 28, 2007)

Thanks guys.... i think your right and it was bloat after all.... such a shame to have lost so many fish, but isht happens right?

I just feed and everyone ate. I think the Labs are hiding now because of lack of fish. Interestingly enough it seems that the blue dolphins and Taiwan reefs were unaffected. While I lost seemingly all of the otopharnyx lithobates and german reds.

after treating with the JPC i wish i had known that a day earlier, possibly would have saved several fish. all well though hindsight is 20/20


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Actually, I doubt very seriously if adding the JPC a day earlier would have saved any fish if it was bloat. If you could have treated the tank before you left on your trip, it might have made a difference, but these things can't be left untreated. Once you reach a certain point in the stage of the disease, it's hard to do anything at all for him.

I'm still not 100% convinced it's bloat, so keep a close eye on things. :thumb:


----------



## cichlids&amp;baseball (Dec 28, 2007)

yeah i meant to treat before I left..

All looks good, everyone is happy. I am going to restock Tuesday or Wednesday. does that sound ok?


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I would give it a little more time...If you don't and it was bloat, you may experience the whole thing all over again.

Bloat can take weeks to manifest in some fish, and just because you finally treated it with one round of treatment does not mean you're out of the woods.


----------

