# Stocking and upgrade question



## aausa1983 (Apr 6, 2016)

Hello,

I have a 65g with 15 African cichlids in it. They are all very young ranging from 1.5" to 2.5". My Super Red Empress is 3". My stock consists of aceis, labs, haps and peacocks. 13 out of my 15 fish will grow between 4 and 6". Two of them will grow 8-10". There is 0 aggression in my tank (at the moment ). I will definitely upgrade to a 150g in the future, but I plan on doing it once my fish outgrow the 65 gallon (36" x 18" X 25"). Two questions for you:

1. How many cichlids do you believe is the max that can go in a 65g?

2. For the 15 cichlids I currently have, and assuming they grow at a "normal" rate, what is your opinion on when I would need to/should upgrade to the 150g? 1 year? 3 years?

Thanks!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'd say the max is 12 and the 2.5" and 3" fish are ready for the larger tank now. I'd plan the upgrade in six months if you want to wait.


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## des (Mar 30, 2011)

I say upgrade to the 150g as soon as you can if you have the space. Their health; growth, colour, behavior will benefit from it. Do it!


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## aausa1983 (Apr 6, 2016)

des said:


> I say upgrade to the 150g as soon as you can if you have the space. Their health; growth, colour, behavior will benefit from it. Do it!


I agree! However, space is an issue at the moment. How long though do you predict hese guys will have space in my current setup (before there's cramming/aggression)?


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## tanker3 (May 18, 2015)

aausa1983 said:


> des said:
> 
> 
> > I say upgrade to the 150g as soon as you can if you have the space. Their health; growth, colour, behavior will benefit from it. Do it!
> ...


Depending on food amount, clean water, which fish is more aggressive when feeding, male population, number of males for each species, ---maybe a few months.


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## des (Mar 30, 2011)

I say about 5-6 months if you are keeping all 15 fish. I think their growth will depend out how often you feed them and how often you change your water. Your bio load will be a good indicator.


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## aausa1983 (Apr 6, 2016)

des said:


> I say about 5-6 months if you are keeping all 15 fish. I think their growth will depend out how often you feed them and how often you change your water. Your bio load will be a good indicator.


I feed them twice a day for 30 seconds to a minute....NLS pellets, tetra flakes, and National Geographic Cichlid pellets (sometimes). I change water once per week. I've read varying things online but roughly how much will they grow within 6 months?


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## dledinger (Mar 20, 2013)

They will grow at very different rates depending on several factors...that's most likely why you see differing information.

It's not possible, really, to put a timeline or specific fish size on it. The two issues that would necessitate a change are water quality (and the ability to maintain it) and aggression. In your specific setup you have a lot of volume in a short tank so water quality shouldn't be an issue.

If I were to guess....I think you're safe for another 6-9 months. On the same token, you might wake up tomorrow to find a rogue Mbuna on a warpath.


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## aausa1983 (Apr 6, 2016)

dledinger said:


> They will grow at very different rates depending on several factors...that's most likely why you see differing information.
> 
> It's not possible, really, to put a timeline or specific fish size on it. The two issues that would necessitate a change are water quality (and the ability to maintain it) and aggression. In your specific setup you have a lot of volume in a short tank so water quality shouldn't be an issue.
> 
> If I were to guess....I think you're safe for another 6-9 months. On the same token, you might wake up tomorrow to find a rogue Mbuna on a warpath.


Thanks. How often do you feed them veggies (cucumbers and peas)? Also, what brand shrimp would you advise?


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## dledinger (Mar 20, 2013)

NLS is a good food. It's all I've used for the past couple years. The only other thing I feed is broccoli and noori. I feed the broccoli as a matter of convenience because my wife often blanches some for the our macaw, and the noori is just for my entertainment. The fish seem to love both, however.

I can't advise you on a brand of shrimp, and I wouldn't feed it to Mbuna.


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## aausa1983 (Apr 6, 2016)

dledinger said:


> NLS is a good food. It's all I've used for the past couple years. The only other thing I feed is broccoli and noori. I feed the broccoli as a matter of convenience because my wife often blanches some for the our macaw, and the noori is just for my entertainment. The fish seem to love both, however.
> 
> I can't advise you on a brand of shrimp, and I wouldn't feed it to Mbuna.


If you had to put a number on it, how many NLS pellets are normal for a 2 inch cichlid to consume per feeding?


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## dledinger (Mar 20, 2013)

I put no where near that much thought into it, but if you're talking about the regular 1mm pellet I would guess 4-5 or so. There's slender species and there's chunkier species, so it can really vary a lot.


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## aausa1983 (Apr 6, 2016)

dledinger said:


> I put no where near that much thought into it, but if you're talking about the regular 1mm pellet I would guess 4-5 or so. There's slender species and there's chunkier species, so it can really vary a lot.


I just want to make sure I'm feeding enough. I try hard not to overfeed, but in my opinion that's relative. If I drop a ton of pellets in at once there are 3 or 4 cichlids that snatch them fast while the others may not get much. I'm probably over-thinking it but it would be nice to be certain. I also have several that don't come to the top so it's harder to feed them. The others get them before they sink down far enough.


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## Aaron S (Apr 4, 2015)

if you pre-soak the pellets and put them in front of a filter return then they will sink much faster and give more food to those fish that do not like to come to the top of the surface. In my tank currently, all my cichlids are afraid of the top of the water and wait for the pellets to sink. Oddly enough my syno's will periodically eat the pellets off the surface while the cichlids watch in horror of the brave little catfish stealing their food.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If the slow ones are hungry they will come up and go faster...unless you have aggression problems. I like to remember that stomachs are the size of the eyes so that means only several 1mm pellets/fish, like dl says. But don't watch the pokey one and keep adding pellets until he gets six. Guesstimate the amount and dump. The fast dump gets some to the bottom because they sink faster. I think it is a perfect feed if no pellets make it to the bottom or last less than 30 seconds there.


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## aausa1983 (Apr 6, 2016)

Aaron S said:


> if you pre-soak the pellets and put them in front of a filter return then they will sink much faster and give more food to those fish that do not like to come to the top of the surface. In my tank currently, all my cichlids are afraid of the top of the water and wait for the pellets to sink. Oddly enough my syno's will periodically eat the pellets off the surface while the cichlids watch in horror of the brave little catfish stealing their food.


Lol. Good idea btw. Not surprisingly, the 4 or so fish that don't come to the top much are the ones I bought a few weeks ago online so I think they're still adjusting and getting used to where their food source comes from.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I can't imagine them sinking faster than they do without presoaking. If you really want to blast them to the bottom put them in front of the filter outflow.


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## dledinger (Mar 20, 2013)

Yeah....with the exception of the small fish formula, mine sink pretty instantly.


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## aausa1983 (Apr 6, 2016)

dledinger said:


> Yeah....with the exception of the small fish formula, mine sink pretty instantly.


As I mentioned, I am using NLS pellets, tetra flakes, and National Geographic Cichlid pellets (sometimes). I know the NLS pellets are a good source of spirulina and that the tetra flakes are a little fatty (not as good for mbuna although some people in the Amazon reviews said they have fed them to mbunas for years). I am going to start feeding them peas once a week. Do you feel the combination of the 3 foods I mentioned above are good in addition to feeding peas? ...or would you go with a specific spirulina such as these?

http://www.amazon.com/Ocean-Star-Intern ... 002DVYBS6/

http://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-Spirulina ... op?ie=UTF8


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would feed just the NLS pellets.


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## aausa1983 (Apr 6, 2016)

I will start only feeding NLS pellets along with some actual veggies (e.g. peas) once a week or every couple weeks. As I mentioned, I have a few labs, a few aceis, haps, and peacocks. I know the NLS pellets are good for the mbunas but are they enough for the peacocks and haps? In other words, do the peacocks and haps need more protein or are the NLS pellets sufficient?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

NLS is good for all. I've been using it exclusively in all my tanks (see signature) for maybe 8 years.


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## aausa1983 (Apr 6, 2016)

DJRansome said:


> NLS is good for all. I've been using it exclusively in all my tanks (see signature) for maybe 8 years.


Awesome. I already stopped feeding the tetra flakes and the National geographic pellets. In regards to the original purpose of this topic, I'm going to plan on upgrading my tank within a year to a 125 or 150. Given that I'm going to upgrade to a tank twice the current size, do you think it's okay to add more fish to my tank? I am at 14 now (my red zebra died of bloat over the weekend  ).


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

First the upgrade, then add fish.

Why did the zebra get bloat? How are you going to deal with the other fish if they get it as well?


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## aausa1983 (Apr 6, 2016)

DJRansome said:


> First the upgrade, then add fish.
> 
> Why did the zebra get bloat? How are you going to deal with the other fish if they get it as well?


That's what I'm trying to figure out. My parameters are all good and I do weekly water changes with Prime. I got a 5g tank and bought an aqueon 10 filter along with a heater for it so that I have a hospital tank that's sufficient for 1 or 2 cichlids. I'm going to start cycling it tonight. I bought Clout off of Amazon that should be here in a few days. My other fish look fine and are moving around. The zebra was showing signs such as sitting in the corner and spitting out food. When it wouldn't eat food I realized it was bloat and started acquiring a hospital tank. Lesson learned I guess, especially since I'm new to this. Is there anything you would advise? Should I put clout in my main tank with all the fish?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

IME bloat can be diagnosed by not eating AND thready or clear feces. Just not eating can be many diseases. Was it the top corner or the bottom corner?

And I would not treat fish with bloat with clout...I would use metronidazole. I usually DO treat the whole tank because IMO if one fish was being harassed enough to cause a weakened immune system and bloat...then the rest are not far behind. Bloat can take one fish/month until all are gone.

So I definitely would not add fish to the tank...you already have too many and are experiencing issues.

Try a post in the Illness forum about your zebra and trying to figure out next steps.


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## aausa1983 (Apr 6, 2016)

DJRansome said:


> IME bloat can be diagnosed by not eating AND thread or clear feces. Just not eating can be many diseases. Was it the top corner or the bottom corner?
> 
> And I would not treat fish with bloat with clout...I would use metronidazole. I usually DO treat the whole tank because IMO if one fish was being harassed enough to cause a weakened immune system and bloat...then the rest are not far behind. Bloat can take one fish/month until all are gone.
> 
> ...


I already posted in the illness forum but haven't heard back. The zebra was in both corners top and bottom. First, the top and then the bottom. Also, I have seen 0 harassment. I saw aggression with a johanni and a bumblebee but removed both. I haven't seen any at all from any fish since removing them.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Harassment is often not seen. A fish in the top corner is being harassed. If he is not eating he has gotten sick. I will look in Illness and see if I can respond.


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## aausa1983 (Apr 6, 2016)

DJRansome said:


> Harassment is often not seen. A fish in the top corner is being harassed. If he is not eating he has gotten sick. I will look in Illness and see if I can respond.


Possibly. Late last week I threw a flake along with a couple pellets. He tried eating them but then spit them out. Thanks for the reply.


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## aausa1983 (Apr 6, 2016)

Getting back to the original question about the number of cichlids in my 65g (3 ft length), I know that the max for this tank is around 15. However, if I'm going to upgrade within a year, do you think it's okay to add more now? In other words, I know it would not be a good idea to add more fish to my current tank if I planned on keeping them in this tank long term but would like to be able to move more fish to the larger, future tank in the near future.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would not do 15 fish in a 36" tank (12 might work for certain species) and it's always better to wait until you have the big tank to buy fish to stock it because...life happens.

If you were going to buy fry now and grow them out for 3 months and have your big that that quickly...that might be different.

Many fish are spawning six months after they are spit and that is when you need the big tank.


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## aausa1983 (Apr 6, 2016)

DJRansome said:


> I would not do 15 fish in a 36" tank (12 might work for certain species) and it's always better to wait until you have the big tank to buy fish to stock it because...life happens.
> 
> If you were going to buy fry now and grow them out for 3 months and have your big that that quickly...that might be different.
> 
> Many fish are spawning six months after they are spit and that is when you need the big tank.


So, let's assume that I have 12 species that work in a 75g tank (4 ft). Approximately how many more cichlids could I add to that 75g?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'm not sure whether you are asking about mixed gender or all-male.

In a 48x18 rectangle I like 12 males that mature <= 6".

In a 48x18 rectangle I like 4 species with 1m:4f of each (depending on the species).


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## aausa1983 (Apr 6, 2016)

I'm referring to an all-male tank. Also, I'm not referring to adult cichlids that are 6 inches. I know 15 adult cichlids males will not work in a 65g. That is why I was asking, "how many juvenille cichlids (2-3 inches) will fit in a 65g tank for 6-9 months"?


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## dledinger (Mar 20, 2013)

If you're considering this a grow out tank and can keep up the water quality then you can stock a lot heavier than most people would recommend.

It'll go against everything you have read here, but I have routinely raised 50+ fish to around 3" in bare bottom 20 longs with daily water changes and a maintained a mortality rate of virtually zero.

There's a lot of factors in play that you need to consider, however. For example, my success with the above is probably partially due to the very dense stocking and lack of territory. Also, consider that some fish are fully mature at 3", and others are still practically babies. Growth rate is another consideration. Your water quality and nutrition will have a big impact on how fast your fish grow in 6-9 months.


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## aausa1983 (Apr 6, 2016)

dledinger said:


> If you're considering this a grow out tank and can keep up the water quality then you can stock a lot heavier than most people would recommend.
> 
> It'll go against everything you have read here, but I have routinely raised 50+ fish to around 3" in bare bottom 20 longs with daily water changes and a maintained a mortality rate of virtually zero.
> 
> There's a lot of factors in play that you need to consider, however. For example, my success with the above is probably partially due to the very dense stocking and lack of territory. Also, consider that some fish are fully mature at 3", and others are still practically babies. Growth rate is another consideration. Your water quality and nutrition will have a big impact on how fast your fish grow in 6-9 months.


My whole thought process is that, since I have to upgrade my tank within a year for 15 juvenille cichlids, I might as well use my tank to its fullest advantage, which is as a grow out tank. My plan is to have no more than 20 or 25 male juvenilles in my current tank (7 to 10 more fish than I have right now). Hindsight is 20/20. Had I known 3 feet was a bad idea I would have gotten a 75g for side.


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## dledinger (Mar 20, 2013)

Crazy as I may be...I think you're better off with more than less.

To really think about it, if it's a matter of "how long can I get away with a 36" display tank", VS., "what can I put in a 36" grow out tank"....I'd respond with two different answers. The first question implies I want to make this work as a display. The second does not.

In other words, sparsely stocking a 36" tank and allowing the fish to mature while hoping it will work could turn out really bad, but you could grow out a ridiculous number of fry and have it work just fine.


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## aausa1983 (Apr 6, 2016)

dledinger said:


> Crazy as I may be...I think you're better off with more than less.
> 
> To really think about it, if it's a matter of "how long can I get away with a 36" display tank", VS., "what can I put in a 36" grow out tank"....I'd respond with two different answers. The first question implies I want to make this work as a display. The second does not.
> 
> In other words, sparsely stocking a 36" tank and allowing the fish to mature while hoping it will work could turn out really bad, but you could grow out a ridiculous number of fry and have it work just fine.


I just have to decide the max number of juveniles (peacocks, haps, aceis, labs) that will work for a 6-12 month period in my tank.


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## dledinger (Mar 20, 2013)

In 12 months you will have problems. Fish will mature and be inclined to kill each other. What are you trying to end up with in the long run? I'd base my plan off that, with some calculated culling and potential losses.

Like I said, my approach would be different than a lot of folks here. I'd go bare tank, no decor and very heavy stocking. I'd probably run the tank a little on the cooler side. That's the only way, I believe, to get around aggression issues in a tank that size. Still, 12 months would be a long time to make this work and it could go downhill real fast.

And FWIW....I've never used a tank that size for a grow out, so I'm purely speculating what I _think_ would work. Generally I use smaller tanks and limit them to a single species.


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