# Glenn's Tank Thread



## GlennLever

This is the logical progression of "Glenn's Tank Thread" under Aquarium Setup https://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/vie ... 4&t=390593

This list was suggested by chazeltine .....

1 male and 4 females of Chindongo Saulosi
1 male and 4 females of Psuedotropheous Acei
1 male and 4 females of Cynotilapia Afra
1 male and 4 females of Labidochromis caeruleus
1 male and 4 females of Labeotropheus trewavasae

An amendment was made by DJRansome .....

"For a different thought on stocking I like 4 species in a 48x18 tank. I would eliminate the afra (now known as zebroides) since they are blue barred fish like the saulosi, and the saulosi have colorful females.

I would also do 7 females for the labeotropheus as they can be more aggressive than the others."

after a discussion on Clown Loaches this thought was added

"They are way smaller than the loaches and MAYBE 8 inches long but sleek and absolutely not a problem in a 48" tank. Or go Synodontis lucipinnis...smaller and no parasite brooding. Also not as good at fry patrol"

So I will use this thread a a place to discuss the new fish for the new tank.

The tank is still cycling, I expect to have some Dr. Tim's One and Only tomorrow and will try his fish-less cycle.


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## DJRansome

So given the suggestions so far, and your original decision to go with Malawi, and your decisions so far, what additional information can Members provide to help you decide?

Mbuna or haps and peacocks?

Mixed gender or all male?

Save us flipping between the topics, what are the dimensions of the tank?


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> So given the suggestions so far, and your original decision to go with Malawi, and your decisions so far, what additional information can Members provide to help you decide?
> 
> Mbuna or haps and peacocks?
> 
> Mixed gender or all male?
> 
> Save us flipping between the topics, what are the dimensions of the tank?


I am thinking Mbuna, male and female

I am not a real fan of the coloring I have seen in Peacocks, but they are no as territorial.

Tank is 110 gal High (48 x 18 x30)


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> what additional information can Members provide to help you decide?


I thought about this and the answer right now is nothing, however after I do my reading I will have very specific questions.

Currently getting a handle on the three species, general characteristics.

Are there any top swimmers? Haplochromines? little concerned with the 1/4 of the Cichlids that are predators (no Fry survive, not that I want to bred, but the activity is nice to watch)

Just kind of thinking out load and will listen to any input.


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## DJRansome

Lake Malawi cichlids tend to swim at all levels of the tank...especially once spawning starts so for 7.5 years of their 8 year lifetime...all over the tank.

Of course your tank is 2X deeper than many, so I would not expect fish to hang out extensively at the top. Acei have a rep for this but I did not find it to be more true for them than any other mbuna.

There are not mbuna predators so not a concern. The occasional fry may survive but unlikely with the Synodontis in the tank.


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## GlennLever

How do you identify Haplochromines, Mbuna, and Peacocks

Body shape, mouth, fins?

I cannot seem to find a good description on how to tell them apart?


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## DJRansome

Scientific name? I would not try to ID them by looking. Curious why you would want to?

Peacocks are properly called Aulonocara.

Haps in particular have a wide variety of shapes.

And although they are not commonly referred to this way, Aulonocara are haps.


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## BC in SK

GlennLever said:


> How do you identify Haplochromines, Mbuna, and Peacocks
> 
> Body shape, mouth, fins?
> 
> I cannot seem to find a good description on how to tell them apart?


These are groupings used in the aquarium hobby and not really groupings that fit with scientific classification. 
All lake Malawi cichlids in the hobby are Haplochromines ( belong to the tribe Haplochromini) and are thought to have a single common ancestor (monophyletic). There are actually a few Tilapines in Lake Malawi, but none are really in the hobby.
Mbuna generally refer to elongated fish that live and feed above the rocky areas. They are not a monphyletic group as DNA studies have shown some to be more closely related to peacocks and/or haps then they are to other mbuna. Aquarists distinguish these from other Haplochromines primarily on their body shape and by the fact that many hobbyists have become very familiar with all of the genera.
Peacocks are a monphyletic grouping as they are all members of the same genus, Aulonocara. In terms of appearance the distinction in look from "Haps" is not always so obvious, nor easy to explain with words, but as one becomes very familiar with the genus, aquarists recognize them as members of the Aulonocara genus. Aulonocara are more closely related to mbuna, then they are to at least some "Haps".
Malawi "Haps" are generally those fish that used to be in the genus, Haplochromis. They are recognized by hobbyists primarily by their deeper body shape. Over the last 40 years or so, these fish were removed from the genus Haplochromis, and placed in a multitude of genera. Today there are no Haps from lake Malawi remaining in the genus Haplochromis. This genus is made up of Haplochromine fish from outside of lake Malawi of what I would refer to as "victorian-types".
"Haps" are found through out lake Malawi, though they are some what more associated with sandy areas or really deep water, and some what less so from rocky areas (which mbuna are almost exclusively associated with).


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> Scientific name? I would not try to ID them by looking. Curious why you would want to?
> 
> Peacocks are properly called Aulonocara.
> 
> Haps in particular have a wide variety of shapes.
> 
> And although they are not commonly referred to this way, Aulonocara are haps.


Why, I do not want to look like a idiot whan I walk in to buy some fish, or maybe I purchase online, never do that before.



BC in SK said:


> GlennLever said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you identify Haplochromines, Mbuna, and Peacocks
> 
> Body shape, mouth, fins?
> 
> I cannot seem to find a good description on how to tell them apart?
> 
> 
> 
> These are groupings used in the aquarium hobby and not really groupings that fit with scientific classification.
> All lake Malawi cichlids in the hobby are Haplochromines ( belong to the tribe Haplochromini) and are thought to have a single common ancestor (monophyletic). There are actually a few Tilapines in Lake Malawi, but none are really in the hobby.
> Mbuna generally refer to elongated fish that live and feed above the rocky areas. They are not a monphyletic group as DNA studies have shown some to be more closely related to peacocks and/or haps then they are to other mbuna. Aquarists distinguish these from other Haplochromines primarily on their body shape and by the fact that many hobbyists have become very familiar with all of the genera.
> Peacocks are a monphyletic grouping as they are all members of the same genus, Aulonocara. In terms of appearance the distinction in look from "Haps" is not always so obvious, nor easy to explain with words, but as one becomes very familiar with the genus, aquarists recognize them as members of the Aulonocara genus. Aulonocara are more closely related to mbuna, then they are to at least some "Haps".
> Malawi "Haps" are generally those fish that used to be in the genus, Haplochromis. They are recognized by hobbyists primarily by their deeper body shape. Over the last 40 years or so, these fish were removed from the genus Haplochromis, and placed in a multitude of genera. Today there are no Haps from lake Malawi remaining in the genus Haplochromis. This genus is made up of Haplochromine fish from outside of lake Malawi of what I would refer to as "victorian-types".
> "Haps" are found through out lake Malawi, though they are some what more associated with sandy areas or really deep water, and some what less so from rocky areas (which mbuna are almost exclusively associated with).
Click to expand...

Thanks, a little above my head, but I will work my through it. I guess the best thing is to know before you go into a store, what you want.


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## DJRansome

If the scientific name is not on the tank, about face and leave the LFS. Don't buy from an assorted tank and think twice if all they give you is the common name.

You can glance through the genus names in the profiles here...all Aulonocara have the same genus name. Haps have genus names like Copadichromis, Protomelas, Placidochromis, etc.

That should help.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> If the scientific name is not on the tank, about face and leave the LFS. Don't buy from an assorted tank and think twice if all they give you is the common name.
> 
> You can glance through the genus names in the profiles here...all Aulonocara have the same genus name. Haps have genus names like Copadichromis, Protomelas, Placidochromis, etc.
> 
> That should help.


Yes, Thanks

The store is a two store chain (true Mom and Pop pet store). I knew the original owner back 30 years ago, I bought my last 110 from him and I feel so allegiance to them.

My choices are limited, I have Petco, Country Max, Pet World (the Mom & Pop store).

1) I have read about online fish, is that an option? The obvious question is who is GOOD.

2) Once the tank is cycled, do I buy a bunch of fish, or start with lets say Synodontis iucipinnis?


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## DJRansome

I would stock all at once. Mom or Pop may have the scientific name, even if they don't label the tanks with the names. Or they may be willing to order fish by scientific name for you from their wholesaler.

I order 99% of my fish online (the rest I buy from hobbyists I know well). Members can PM you with recommendations, you can PM them or you can look at Retailer Reviews.


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## sir_keith

BC in SK said:


> These are groupings used in the aquarium hobby and not really groupings that fit with scientific classification.
> All lake Malawi cichlids in the hobby are Haplochromines ( belong to the tribe Haplochromini) and are thought to have a single common ancestor (monophyletic). There are actually a few Tilapines in Lake Malawi, but none are really in the hobby.
> Mbuna generally refer to elongated fish that live and feed above the rocky areas. They are not a monphyletic group as DNA studies have shown some to be more closely related to peacocks and/or haps then they are to other mbuna. Aquarists distinguish these from other Haplochromines primarily on their body shape and by the fact that many hobbyists have become very familiar with all of the genera.
> Peacocks are a monphyletic grouping as they are all members of the same genus, Aulonocara. In terms of appearance the distinction in look from "Haps" is not always so obvious, nor easy to explain with words, but as one becomes very familiar with the genus, aquarists recognize them as members of the Aulonocara genus. Aulonocara are more closely related to mbuna, then they are to at least some "Haps".
> Malawi "Haps" are generally those fish that used to be in the genus, Haplochromis. They are recognized by hobbyists primarily by their deeper body shape. Over the last 40 years or so, these fish were removed from the genus Haplochromis, and placed in a multitude of genera. Today there are no Haps from lake Malawi remaining in the genus Haplochromis. This genus is made up of Haplochromine fish from outside of lake Malawi of what I would refer to as "victorian-types".
> "Haps" are found through out lake Malawi, though they are some what more associated with sandy areas or really deep water, and some what less so from rocky areas (which mbuna are almost exclusively associated with).


Excellent post, and a nice summary of a complex issue. :thumb:


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## DJRansome

If you have to buy the fish one group at a time for some reason, Synodontis last as they are the most sensitive to toxins in the water. Least aggressive group first so they have an advantage. Wait between additions so beneficial organisms can grow to support the new bioload. Quarantine each new group to be added in a separate tank for 3 weeks.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> If you have to buy the fish one group at a time for some reason, Synodontis last as they are the most sensitive to toxins in the water. Least aggressive group first so they have an advantage. Wait between additions so beneficial organisms can grow to support the new bioload. Quarantine each new group to be added in a separate tank for 3 weeks.


The reason I was wondering about how many fish to put in was would the biolaod be to much for all at once?

I would very much like to receive by PM recommendations for online purchase of fish.

Getting closer to that point as the cycle has started in my tank.

Thanks


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## DJRansome

If you cycle with ammonia and your beneficial organisms can process 4ppm of added ammonia to zero (and nitrite=0) within 24 hours, then the bacteria can handle the entire bioload. This is a benefit of cycling with ammonia. PM sent.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> If you cycle with ammonia and your beneficial organisms can process 4ppm of added ammonia to zero (and nitrite=0) within 24 hours, then the bacteria can handle the entire bioload. This is a benefit of cycling with ammonia. PM sent.


Dr.Tim want's three days in a row that after adding the equivalent of 2PPM ammonia to the tank the ammonia and Nitrite are 0.

Starting to think on fish.

one recommendation was a group of Labeotropheus trewavasae

When I look in the Species Profiles I find multiple enters?

Labeotropheus trewavasae (Chadagha) 
Labeotropheus trewavasae (Chilumba) 
Labeotropheus trewavasae (Domwe Is.) 
Labeotropheus trewavasae (Likoma) 
Labeotropheus trewavasae (Maleri) 
Labeotropheus trewavasae (Manda) 
Labeotropheus trewavasae (Mpanga) Mpanga Red
Labeotropheus trewavasae (Ntekete) 
Labeotropheus trewavasae (Pombo Rocks) 
Labeotropheus trewavasae (West Thumbi Is.) 
Labeotropheus trewavasae (Zimbawe)


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## DJRansome

Different collection points. All look different. Look at the pics in each profile.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> Different collection points. All look different. Look at the pics in each profile.


I did, and that is what got me going.

I have been plugging in the names and watching YouTube based on the name.

Turns out, I think, not only do you need the name but the collection point in-order to get the fish I have been looking at on You tube. I guess what I am saying is if I order online by name the fish I get may be correct, but not the fish I expected.

I know the LFS fish will be young.

Which brings up another topic. I like watching the young fish develop (buying before you can sex).

Is that just to dangerous in the mix you might end up with?

It seems just a little weird to go out and buy so much of this and so much of that to end up with a tank that has adult fish purchased to spec.?

Does that approach to stocking the tank make any sense at all?


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## DJRansome

I didn't follow this part.


> if I order online by name the fish I get may be correct, but not the fish I expected.


The picture in the CF profile and the picture the vendor provides should match. Are you saying that the youtube people are mislabeling their fish?

With mbuna the usual practice is to buy unsexed juveniles and rehome extra males as required. If your LFS works with Lake Malawi cichlids this should not be a surprise to them. A good LFS will take your extra fish for wholesale prices and give you store credit.

Or you sell at a local club auction or to a fellow hobbyist.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> I didn't follow this part.
> 
> 
> 
> if I order online by name the fish I get may be correct, but not the fish I expected.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you saying that the youtube people are mislabeling their fish?
Click to expand...

No, just that the location makes a difference in how the fish looks.


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## DJRansome

Shop using the CF profile pics and/or your vendor pics and forget about the youtube pics.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> Shop using the CF profile pics and/or your vendor pics and forget about the youtube pics.


Yep


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## GlennLever

Ok...I'm still struggling with names.

This was the suggested list to start with;

1 male and 4 females of Chindongo Saulosi
1 male and 4 females of Psuedotropheous Acei
1 male and 4 females of Cynotilapia Afra
1 male and 4 females of Labidochromis caeruleus
1 male and 4 females of Labeotropheus trewavasae

If I try an look them up in the Species Profiles I cannot find them.

If I do an inter net search I get hits and what I see I like.

Went shopping "Local Fish Stores" and have decided that the way to go is online.

Search of two different online sites found most of the fish, none had Cynotilapia Afra.

The question is what am I missing on the names? How do I look up the suggestions (or any new suggestions) in the Species Profiles?


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## shiftyfox

When you say Afra, do you mean Cobue..? 
Being a striped fish will the Male play nicely with the salousi Male?


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## DJRansome

chazeltine did not give you the collection points. The scientists change the scientific names periodically and CF did not update the scientific names for the last revision.

Saulosi went from Pseudotropheus to Chindongo.

Cynotilapia afra changed to zebroides. This changed I mentioned on page 1 of this topic.

If you mention you want the profile name we can provide it.

We have purchased expensive books and refer to paid websites to keep up with the latest changes.

You will find the opposite problem as well. We did update Maylandia to Metriaclima, but not everyone agrees with that change and you will still see the fish listed by both names.


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## GlennLever

shiftyfox said:


> When you say Afra, do you mean Cobue..?
> Being a striped fish will the Male play nicely with the salousi Male?


Cynotilapia Afra, will they play nice with Chindongo Saulosi.I do not know. It has been suggested to drop the Cynotilapia Afra in favor having four groups and some Synodontis lucipinnis



DJRansome said:


> chazeltine did not give you the collection points. The scientists change the scientific names periodically and CF did not update the scientific names for the last revision.
> 
> Saulosi went from Pseudotropheus to Chindongo.
> 
> Cynotilapia afra changed to zebroides. This changed I mentioned on page 1 of this topic.
> 
> If you mention you want the profile name we can provide it.
> 
> We have purchased expensive books and refer to paid websites to keep up with the latest changes.
> 
> You will find the opposite problem as well. We did update Maylandia to Metriaclima, but not everyone agrees with that change and you will still see the fish listed by both names.


I very much would like the profile name for the following fish.

Chindongo Saulosi
Psuedotropheous Acei
Labidochromis caeruleus
Labeotropheus trewavasae
Synodontis lucipinnis


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## DJRansome

https://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1 You can see the Taiwan Reef location point listed in the profile.
https://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/ ... hp?id=1460
https://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/ ... php?id=713

CF does not have a pic for the trewavasae location point you have chosen.

Synodontis are not cichlids, so no profile. You could find more information on planetcatfish.com.

Most yellow labs in the hobby are reputed to have come from a single pair collected many years ago and are decendants of the original pair. Read about it here. https://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/l_caeruleus.php


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## Deeda

Chindongo saulosi used to be Pseudotropheus saulosi.

The other names you asked about are the same, just check your spelling. There are different locations or variants of some of them and pics aren't available on C-F's Species Profiles. You can find them at Malawi Species Profiles

Synodontis lucipinnis doesn't have a profile on C-F, but you should be able to find it on Planet Catfish Cat-eLog


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## DJRansome

Deeda said:


> Chindongo saulosi used to be Pseudotropheus saulosi.
> 
> The other names you asked about are the same, just check your spelling. There are different locations or variants of some of them and pics aren't available on C-F's Species Profiles. You can find them at Malawi Species Profiles
> 
> Synodontis lucipinnis doesn't have a profile on C-F, but you should be able to find it on Planet Catfish Cat-eLog


Great minds.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> Deeda said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chindongo saulosi used to be Pseudotropheus saulosi.
> 
> The other names you asked about are the same, just check your spelling. There are different locations or variants of some of them and pics aren't available on C-F's Species Profiles. You can find them at Malawi Species Profiles
> 
> Synodontis lucipinnis doesn't have a profile on C-F, but you should be able to find it on Planet Catfish Cat-eLog
> 
> 
> 
> Great minds.
Click to expand...

Spellings. I have been copying and pasting names from the first post.

I have been looking at fish with names that the spellings are close.

This is where my proposed purchase order looks like,

Chindongo saulosi Taiwanee Reef
1.5''+ 9.00 ea
Pseudotropheus sp. ''Acei'' Luwala Reef ''Yellow Tail Acei''
1.5-2'' 7.00 ea
Labidochromis caeruleus Lion's Cove ''Yellow Lab''
1.5-2'' 7.00 ea
Labeotropheus trewavasae Chirwa Island ''Red''
2'' 9.00 ea
Synodontis lucipinnis ''Dwarf Petricola''
1'' 15.00 ea


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## DJRansome

Looks good to me.


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## Deeda

Hey Glenn,

Usually when I am looking for a specific fish, I search for the Genus, then Species and then Location. In other words for an example, Labeotropheus trewavasae 'Thumbi West Island' should pull up a few pictures on that location catch. Not all vendors show the location the fish came from either when wild caught or tank raised.

In my local fish club, members DO cite the location or variant as those fish are more in demand and people like to know so they don't mix them up with other locations they may keep. It seems kinda snobbish to some people but it's usually done in case that variant turns out to eventually be deemed a new and separate species.

When DJ posted about paid websites to see pics or more info on both genus, species and locations/variants, the website that is considered the gold standard is cichlidae.com which does require a yearly subscription to view the detailed submitted info. Membership is currently $30 for one year and does not need to be renewed after one year unless you want to.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> Looks good to me.


Just need to get the tank to fully cycle.



Deeda said:


> Hey Glenn,
> 
> Usually when I am looking for a specific fish, I search for the Genus, then Species and then Location. In other words for an example, Labeotropheus trewavasae 'Thumbi West Island' should pull up a few pictures on that location catch. Not all vendors show the location the fish came from either when wild caught or tank raised.
> 
> In my local fish club, members DO cite the location or variant as those fish are more in demand and people like to know so they don't mix them up with other locations they may keep. It seems kinda snobbish to some people but it's usually done in case that variant turns out to eventually be deemed a new and separate species.
> 
> When DJ posted about paid websites to see pics or more info on both genus, species and locations/variants, the website that is considered the gold standard is cichlidae.com which does require a yearly subscription to view the detailed submitted info. Membership is currently $30 for one year and does not need to be renewed after one year unless you want to.


Thanks, I may do the $30.00 just to look "cichlidae.com", went to find it and could not?


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## Deeda

Strange, here it is The Cichlid room companion

If you sign up, for an extra $5 you can get also get a book though the title may change depending on the time of year.


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## DJRansome

It and the books are good for pics and information about the wild fish in the lake. Not so much about keeping them in the aquarium.

I use it for scientific name changes and sometimes pics of females if I can't find them on CF.


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## GlennLever

Getting more comfortable with names and comfort that I understand how to find correct picture representations.

here is the current list;
Chindongo saulosi Taiwanee Reef
1.5''+ 9.00 ea
Pseudotropheus sp. ''Acei'' Luwala Reef ''Yellow Tail Acei''
1.5-2'' 7.00 ea
Labidochromis caeruleus Lion's Cove ''Yellow Lab''
1.5-2'' 7.00 ea
Labeotropheus trewavasae Chirwa Island ''Red''
2'' 9.00 ea
Synodontis lucipinnis ''Dwarf Petricola''
1'' 15.00 ea

I would like to replace the Labeotropheus trewavasae Chirwa Island ''Red'' with a different group as the female is not the best looking fish.


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## DJRansome

Pseudotropheus cyaneorhabdos Maingano. 1m:7f.


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## GlennLever

I received some correspondence that suggests I am low on fish count.

Thoughts?

"Hi Glenn,
Thanks for reaching out.

I don't see any issues with the species working together, but I'd be nervous about the low numbers. In my experience, numbers are more important than ratio. With only 5 of each species, you're going to fight aggression problems constantly. They'll be better off in groups of 10-12 of each. Aggression never goes away with mbuna, but it's spread out better when there are more options of who to pick on. I'd never cut it down to just one male. We always want to keep the biggest, nicest male, but they generally got that way by being the most aggressive of the group. They'd always rather pick on males than females, but will pick on the females if there aren't males available. The extra males definitely help to take some pressure off the females, and are generally larger and better equipped to take the hits.

In your tank, you have plenty of room to do 10-12 of each of these, as long as you're good about keeping up with the water changes. For the Synos, I always recommend a group of 6 or more to keep them active and schooling. That's the reason behind the price break at 6 or more of them on my site.

<vendor name removed>


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## DJRansome

Another way of stocking. There is no one perfect way. When buying unsexed juveniles we often start off with at least 8 to have a decent chance of getting at least 4 females. And then rehome males only if they cause problems.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> Pseudotropheus cyaneorhabdos Maingano. 1m:7f.


Thanks for the suggestion.

Do you have another suggestion as I do not find the body shape or color pleasing???


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## DJRansome

What color are you looking for? The closest thing to red is Metriaclima estherae (see the orange blotch in my avatar) but that choice would necessitate rearrangement of some of your other choices.

Albino socolofi? Iodotropheus sprengerae?


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## GlennLever

How about


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> What color are you looking for? The closest thing to red is Metriaclima estherae (see the orange blotch in my avatar) but that choice would necessitate rearrangement of some of your other choices.
> 
> Albino socolofi? Iodotropheus sprengerae?


If you look at the post times you were suggesting Iodotropheus sprengerae I was posting the picture of the same fish, I guess we agree.

Dave says that is not enough fish to keep aggression down?


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## shiftyfox

The colour contrast of yellow labs and Mainganos is lovely, i looked at numerous colour combos at my breeders setup and apart from yellow labs and demasoni this is the second best choice with less hassle.

My rule for a colourful tank 
Bright Yellow 
Dark blue/black
Light blue
Striped


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## GlennLever

shiftyfox said:


> The colour contrast of yellow labs and Mainganos is lovely, i looked at numerous colour combos at my breeders setup and apart from yellow labs and demasoni this is the second best choice with less hassle.
> 
> My rule for a colourful tank
> Bright Yellow
> Dark blue/black
> Light blue
> Striped


I might be tempted to ad albino to the list.

How about some advice in this direction?

what would happen if I only added three groups but doubled their numbers (two males and 10 females)?


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## DJRansome

Two males focus on each other.

Why not 3m:9f of the saulosi? You will get more of the blue barred males.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> Two males focus on each other.
> 
> Why not 3m:9f of the saulosi? You will get more of the blue barred males.


So the idea of having fewer groups but more fish in each group is not a bad idea?


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## DJRansome

No...even a single species would be fine. Four species or less.


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## GlennLever

3 male and 9 females 
Iodotropheus sprengerae ''Rusty'' 1.5-2'' 7.00 ea

3 male and 9 females 
Chindongo saulosi Taiwanee Reef 1.5''+ 9.00 ea

3 male and 9 females
Pseudotropheus sp. ''Acei'' Luwala Reef ''Yellow Tail Acei'' 1.5-2'' 7.00 ea

3 
Synodontis lucipinnis ''Dwarf Petricola'' 1'' 15.00 ea

and maybe?
Labidochromis caeruleus
Labidochromis caeruleus Lion's Cove ''Yellow Lab'' 1.5-2'' 7.00 ea

Thoughts, here is the current arrangement of the tank (will not stay that way, have change it around several time already)
https://www.lever-family-racing.com/hid ... _6437#main


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## GlennLever




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## DJRansome

Acei and yellow lab males and females look alike, so whether you have 1m or 3m you are not getting more colorful fish.

Take a look at the saulosi females versus the yellow labs. Not a significant contrast between them. They are OK together, but your tank will have a lot of yellow. Would you consider the white labs?

Why not 5 Synodontis lucipinnis? They are better in larger groups. 5-7 seems to be the ideal.


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## Deeda

36 cichlids sounds like too many in a 48"L x 18" W tank to me, did we lose sight of the tank dimensions?

I know there are a few ways that people suggest to stock Malawi tanks, one is no or few rocks that allow fish to establish territories and lots of fish and the other is lots of rocks and fewer fish that let the fish establish territories. I'm not sure which method is the best but I prefer the latter method as I enjoy seeing the more natural behavior using the rocks.

12 Pseudotropheus sp. Acei 'Yellow tail' seem more suited to a 72" long tank as they get pretty big. Just my opinion after all.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> Acei and yellow lab males and females look alike, so whether you have 1m or 3m you are not getting more colorful fish.
> 
> Take a look at the saulosi females versus the yellow labs. Not a significant contrast between them. They are OK together, but your tank will have a lot of yellow. Would you consider the white labs?
> 
> Why not 5 Synodontis lucipinnis? They are better in larger groups. 5-7 seems to be the ideal.


I agree on all accounts, 4 Synodontis lucipinnis a good compromise?



Deeda said:


> 36 cichlids sounds like too many in a 48"L x 18" W tank to me, did we lose sight of the tank dimensions?
> 
> I know there are a few ways that people suggest to stock Malawi tanks, one is no or few rocks that allow fish to establish territories and lots of fish and the other is lots of rocks and fewer fish that let the fish establish territories. I'm not sure which method is the best but I prefer the latter method as I enjoy seeing the more natural behavior using the rocks.
> 
> 12 Pseudotropheus sp. Acei 'Yellow tail' seem more suited to a 72" long tank as they get pretty big. Just my opinion after all.


I do not like the over stocking idea.

I see three good territories for the fish to establish in this tank.

In the last setup I had I had (20) fish mostly pairs with 6 Clown Louchs.

The picture is deceiving, the tank is 18 inch deep and 30 tall, those are BIG rocks in the tank, One of them runs from front to back and is 10 inches tall.

Thoughts on;
5 Synodontis lucipinnis ''Dwarf Petricola'' 1'' 15.00 ea









1 M 5 F Iodotropheus sprengerae ''Rusty'' 1.5-2'' 7.00 ea









1 M 5 F Chindongo saulosi Taiwanee Reef 1.5''+ 9.00 ea









1 M 5 F Labidochromis caeruleus Nkhata Bay ''White Lab'' 1.5''+ 9.00 ea









thoughts? Never "Planned" fish before, just purchased what I saw and liked at LFS


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## DJRansome

Are you wanted to limit the cost of Synodontis by stocking less than 5 individuals? There is no requirement that you have Synodontis...why not skip them? They do not count in the cichlid max for the tank.

For cichlids I would have at least 20 after removing problem fish, so with 3 species I would go 1m:6f of each.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> Are you wanted to limit the cost of Synodontis by stocking less than 5 individuals? There is no requirement that you have Synodontis...why not skip them? They do not count in the cichlid max for the tank.
> 
> For cichlids I would have at least 20 after removing problem fish, so with 3 species I would go 1m:6f of each.


Cost is not a factor, worried about the number of fish.


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## DJRansome

I would worry about 4 but not 5 on the Synodontis.

Africans are not a fish that you can stock lightly if you prefer.

5 Synodontis seem to be ideal if you are going to have them. I might say 3 for a 36" tank but 48" or 72" I would say 5.

20 cichlids in 48x18 seems to be a good guideline for a minimum to manage aggression.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> I would worry about 4 but not 5 on the Synodontis.
> 
> Africans are not a fish that you can stock lightly if you prefer.
> 
> 5 Synodontis seem to be ideal if you are going to have them. I might say 3 for a 36" tank but 48" or 72" I would say 5.
> 
> 20 cichlids in 48x18 seems to be a good guideline for a minimum to manage aggression.


Seems right to me.

Never had a cat fish, what do I feed it, and how.


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## DJRansome

Same as the cichlids.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> Same as the cichlids.


New Life Spectrum Cichlid
Tetra TetraCichlid Balanced Diet Flakes
TetraMin Crisps Select-A-Food


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## DJRansome

Number one only. I like the Cichlid Formula 1mm sinking pellets.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> Number one only. I like the Cichlid Formula 1mm sinking pellets.


I have always varied the diet, skipping a day every now and then


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## Bamzam

I've seen a few people mention skipping a day of feeding. Is there a benefit to the fish for that? Or is that for controlling nutrients/algae in the water?


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## shiftyfox

It's something I don't do, as long as your feeding the correct amount each day then you won't have any problems. 
I like to underfeed each day anyway.

If there are scientific studies out there that prove there is a benefit to this then maybe I'll change my mind.

I guess it's a chance to clean the fish out but even then they could graze on any algae in the tank. 
If you are feeding to much it would help with nitrates and algae a little if you skipped a day.


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## DJRansome

A good staple has the variety built in. If you want to vary they go between NLS and Northfin.

Skipping a day or days is fine. But it is also fine to feed daily as long as you don't overfeed. If you are feeding too much and you skip one day it would be 1/7 better.


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## Bamzam

But is the caution for overfeeding for the water quality or for the fish? With discus they would feed juvies 3-4x a day and water quality was not a concern because of daily water changes. But is there a health reason for african cichlids not to feed 3x/day and give a break for a day? (Bloat?)


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## shiftyfox

I feed my fry 3 times a day, main tank twice a day. 
As long as it's a good quality food don't worry about protein content or bloat 
I think the consensus now days is bloat is stress related not food related as long as it's of good quality. 
Don't get me wrong you don't want to be smashing handfuls in as your just gunna have water problems. 
I've tried all manor and always come back to the same two brands. 
NLS 0.5mm pellets 
NLS 1mm pellets 
JBL Spirulina flake.

I realise NLS has Spirulina in it I just like to give flake sometimes.


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## DJRansome

Both. Fat fish take a while to fix. You can fix water quality weekly with PWC.


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## GlennLever

I believe that we are close to being cycled.

I will be ordering fish online. Plan to use my tank as the quarantine as there are no fish in it now.

I have a appropriate size net to unbag the fish into and a bucket.

What else should I have on hand?


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## DJRansome

Float them in the bag to equalize temperature for 15 minutes and then net them into the tank. No food and lights off first 24 hours.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> Float them in the bag to equalize temperature for 15 minutes and then net them into the tank. No food and lights off first 24 hours.


I have waited 30 minutes in the past, with them coming by air the temperature might be further off then what 15 minutes allows to equalize.

I would think that so long as the bag is not open I could wait the additional 15 minutes?


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## DJRansome

Sure NP. I always get my fish via air. Thirty minutes can't hurt.


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## GlennLever

The carefully laid plans on fish are blown up by availability which will not be solved until maybe the end of next week.

I am not a patient person, very impulsive, I cannot wait that long to put fish in.

This is currently the new list unless I hear different.

Iodotropheus sprengerae ''Rusty''

Synodontis lucipinnis ''Dwarf Petricola''

Pseudotropheus sp. ''Acei'' Luwala Reef ''Yellow Tail Acei''

Labidochromis caeruleus Lion's Cove ''Yellow Lab''


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## GlennLever

Fish are ordered, for Thursday arrival


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## GlennLever

The fish have arrived and all seem to be doing well.

I am still concerned that the Synodontis lucipinnis ''Dwarf Petricola'' are not getting any food. I see none reaching the bottom when I feed.

If I put any more food in the tank I believe I would be over feeding the rest of the fish.


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## DJRansome

I think we all feel that way. You could try algae wafers at midnight but the cichlids will eat that too.

Do they come out when you feed? If they are hungry they will. For me it usually took a month for that to happen.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> I think we all feel that way. You could try algae wafers at midnight but the cichlids will eat that too.
> 
> Do they come out when you feed? If they are hungry they will. For me it usually took a month for that to happen.


Yes they come out and surrey around and then go back into hiding.


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## tacs

Could you try an autofeeder and have it drop some fast sinking pellets or wafers like at 2 am or an hour after you have gone to bed. My multipunctatus and petricola are out and about constantly but as DJRansome is suggesting it may take a while. If you feed them they will come.


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## GlennLever

tacs said:


> Could you try an autofeeder and have it drop some fast sinking pellets or wafers like at 2 am or an hour after you have gone to bed. My multipunctatus and petricola are out and about constantly but as DJRansome is suggesting it may take a while. If you feed them they will come.


I have some algae wafers coming tomorrow. Will try that first.

I would rather feed the fish myself, part of keeping fish I think?


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## tacs

Indeed you should do what makes you happy. The wafers will probably be more than your fish at this point can handle all at once. Also as the wafer breaks down some will end up in the substrate. The cats will find it. Good luck and let us know how it goes.


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## DJRansome

I do feed sinking pellets and the trick is to expedite getting them to the bottom for the synos. They will not starve without this and I don't do this anymore, but it gets the fishkeeper comfortable with actually seeing them eat at first.

Mix the pellets in a small container of water and pour it in from some height so the water whooshes to the bottom with the pellets instantly.


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## GlennLever

I did this.

cucumber


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## DJRansome

Remove it after a couple of hours.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> Remove it after a couple of hours.


I have taken it out.


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## GlennLever

I got some Algae Wafers.

This is a sinking wafer, and the instructions were to feed only enough for them to feed in several hours.

I put one wafer in the tank. The fish loved it so much it was picked up and I have no idea where it went to in the tank.

How do you feed these wafers so that remainder can be removed after several hours?


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## DJRansome

My cichlids grab them and race away. It's like a cross between a game of take-away and frisbee. Not sure the cats ever get any. I gave up on wafers...I just watch the bellies.


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## GlennLever

How is it possible for me to have babies?


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## Deeda

Thanks for the update Glenn!!

Yes as you've seen the fish can spawn at a couple months of age so congrats.


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## GlennLever

So..... the tank has been up awhile now and in the last week I have lost 3 large healthy (appeared so) Pseudotropheus sp. ''Acei'' Luwala Reef ''Yellow Tail Acei'' All the other fish seem fine.

I test the water regularly and it is good to go.

Any thoughts?


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