# DIY External PVC Overflow and sump (design stage)



## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Here is my idea for a PVC external overflow and sump setup. The the tank I am planning it for is a 29g tank with a 48"x12" footprint. The sump will be a standard 10g tank. A drawing is at the bottom of the post. Since I've never dealt with a sump before, I'm looking for some advice on the overall design of the DIY components, as well as pump selection for return to the tank. A consideration to keep in mind is that the intent is for this to be a bedroom tank, so while it doesn't need to be entirely silent, there should be nothing too noisy. Currently, my intent for stocking will be a similis colony with possibly a single calvus or a calvus pair.

(just as a note - I chose the 4" and 1" PVC, and the 10g tank for the sump because I already have all of those in my possession and would not need to buy those components)

Starting in the sump, the pump sends water through 1" PVC piping up to the main tank via a spray bar and possible UGJs. The spray bar will act as a siphon break in the event of a power failure. This causes the water level in the main tank to rise. I'm thinking I should be shooting for about 200 gallons/hour from the pump at a maximum of about 3-4 feet of head, based on the stand I have. I could go for more flow rate as budget and construction allows. Any ideas on a pump that would work for me?

The rising water level forces water through a pre-filter and into the overflow inlet (1" PVC), which will be under constant siphon keeping the water level in the main tank and overflow chamber equal. The overflow chamber is a length of 4" PVC pipe which is capped at the bottom. The volume of the overflow chamber will be at least 1/2 gallon, but could be made larger with a longer section of 4" pipe. Should I pretty much go for the largest volume possible, or does it not really matter? I think the max I could do would be a 4' length of 4"pipe that would give me a chamber volume of about 2.6 gallons.

The water is expelled from the overflow inlet at the bottom of the overflow chamber. The water rises up through a mechanical filter (pillow stuffing) trapped between two screens. The original plan was: As the water rises in the overflow chamber, it will spill into another piece of 1" PVC piping that is inside the 4" Chamber and passes through the cap at the bottom. But as I was writing this, and after I created the drawing, I thought it might be better and easier to have a hole in the side of the 4" Chamber at the water level and run the 1" PVC on the outside.

However the water gets into the 1" PVC pipe, it then spills down to the sump level. This is where I haven't exactly worked out all the details yet. I know I want some bio media. I haven't decided it I want to create a submerged basket for the biomedia, or if I should create a drip tray into a basket which then empties into the 10g sump. I know the latter would provide better bio filtration, but I think for the size of my tank and intended inhabitants, a submerged basket would be plenty (and quieter). Maybe I'll also try adding a refugium to the sump to keep nitrates lower... we'll see.

And thats pretty much it. Drawing is below. Let me know what you think. Will it work? Should there be any modifications? My main concerns are the pump, whether the overflow chamber volume is large enough, and whether the 1" pvc is large enough for the flow rates I need.

Actually, I just thought of something else... I'm wondering whether I need to worry about the pre filter and the pillow stuffing causing too much restriction before the overflow. If there is too much restriction, and I don't get the levels just right, or if/when the filter media begins to get clogged, then the main tank could overflow during operation, or the sump could overflow if there is a power outage. Would it be better to move all my mechanical filtration after the overflow to prevent this problem? I'm thinking yes...


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

Love the tank dimensions. Love the stock list but Don't care for the design. I think I would just look into getting the tank drilled and here is why.

1. To much equipt. in the tank.
2. The tank can't sit flat against the wall.
3. You can't completely cover the tank.
4. The added surface area is not needed for a 29 gallon.(bio)
5. To much prefilter(on the intake)
6. Looks noisy.....(for the first time in your life your trying to avoid sucking and humming in your bedroom. :lol:

To me on a 29 gallon tank that can't sit flat against the wall(or very close to the wall depending on if the tank can be drilled on the bottom) and has that much visible equipment you just as well put a HOB on it instead.

If your dead set on the overflow I would go with getting the tank drilled and finding a 20 gallon long sump or just use a plastic tote.

If your interested in getting the tank drilled and setting up a tote and bucket sump I can post you some pictures of mine. Someone else might have to add a DIY overflow box though if your looking to make it as cheap as possible as mine is the kind you buy but I think two pieces of plexy would do the job.

To be honest my suggestion for a 29 gallon tank in your bedroom is forget about the sump. It is unnecessary for a 29 gallon freshwater tank and I am a big fan of the overflow filtration types just not on a 29 gallon.

There are still some benefits even with the small tank but IMO they are not worth it unless the tank is drilled. However if your set on an overflow I run several and I can help you along as you go.

Have you considered a canister filter?


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

> Love the tank dimensions. Love the stock list but Don't care for the design.


Well 2/3 ain't bad :lol:

Found this tank on craigslist for $65 and all I could think about was how great it would be for a shellie colony. I'm also glad to hear my stock idea is looking good.



> There are still some benefits even with the small tank but IMO they are not worth it unless the tank is drilled. However if your set on an overflow I run several and I can help you along as you go.
> 
> Have you considered a canister filter?


As for the filtration design, here's what I was thinking...

1) I've spent a lot setting up my 55g, so I wanted to try to set this one up cheap.
2) I already have 4" and 1" PVC pipe, and a 10g tank.
3) Someday I'm going to want to step up into the bigger tanks, so it could be a good practice run for me.
4) I thought increasing the water volume through the use of a sump would be good for water quality and stability.

That being said, I'm not set on using a sump. And I don't want to get the tank drilled because then I can never "undrill" it if I ever wanted to go back to HOB or canister filtration. I'm also aware that a pump for the sump will probably cost as much or more than a HOB or canister anyways.

So, thinking about HOB or canister, what would you recommend? The tank came with a Whisper 10-30i HOB that I'm not sure what shape its in or even if it works. It also came with a Regent Powerhead that was hooked up to an undergravel filter. If I followed the "rules" I created when I set up my 55g, I would get two HOB filters that were each rated for 300GPH flow.

Getting back to the DIY sump idea, what if I got rid of the sponge on the intake and moved the mechanical filtration to a basket in the sump. Then I could keep the media submerged and filter up through pillow floss and bio somethings in a basket in the 10g so the water would "spill" out the top. (but its not really spilling because its all submerged). Then I could use a submerged pump to return water to the main tank via a spray bar or just a dump into the tank like a HOB. The sources for noise would be the return pump, the splashing noise from the return, and whatever noise that would come as a result of water spilling into the 1"PVC pipe. There shouldn't be any extra splashing in the sump because the inlet to the sump would be submerged. The real noise would start when evaporation caused the pump in the sump to start sucking air, but that would just be a notice to top off the tank . On top of that, I'd be able to move the heater out of the main tank and into the sump, and the only equipment that would be in the tank would be the siphon to the 4" PVC overflow chamber (which is on the outside of the tank), and the 1" PVC return to the tank.

As for getting the tank up against the wall, well the solution to that would be to place my overflow chamber on the end of the tank on one of the short ends. I could ensure that I get enough water movement by placing the return on the other end of the tank.

So unless I'm imagining something completely off, the equipment in the tank should pretty much be about the same as a canister, and the noise should be about the same as a HOB.

And just so you know, I'm probably at least a month out from setting up this tank, so I've got plenty of time to prepare. Thanks for the help as always.


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

Alrighty I agree a "practice tank" is a great idea so sump it is. I would suggest a drilled tank when you buy a big tank though and the holes can easily be capped if need be....you just screw caps on the bulkheads.

Anyway the first thing I see is the siphon break that I'm not sure about. Give me some more detail if i'm missing something??? I don't see anything to stop flow if something goes wrong. I think a skimmer on your outlet pipe would be a good idea. Something similar to this design but bigger
http://www.petsolutions.com/Images.aspx?ItemID=15511006

Edit: Ok i see now your siphon break happens inside the 4" pipe.

Is that the only reason for the spill over in the 4" pvc?


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

*a pump for the sump will probably cost as much or more than a HOB or canister anyways*
Not true, untill you get into the high GPH, or Eheim pumps. I have seen many pumps in the 1000gph range for less ,or equal to the cost of a quality HOB.
Love taking a bunch of stuff, laying about, and turning it it into a useful product.
Anyone can go, with money in hand, and buy their way into a filter system.
Your concept has my attention..very clever.
Looking forward to hear how it worked out for you.


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## mithesaint (Oct 31, 2006)

Add another vote to going for a HOB or canister filter instead of a sump. An AC 70 filters 300 gph and would do a good job in that tank.

You're only going to gain a few gallons of water by using a 10 gallon, so you don't get that benefit. You don't have huge fish with a ton of waste, so you don't need the extra biofiltering capacity. You want it in the bedroom, and overflows are not particularly quiet. A sump just doesn't make sense here to me.

What about switching the filtration from the 55 and doing a sump on that tank? Much more possible benefit there, and it's not going to be making noise in your bedroom.

If you still want to go with the sump, a quiet one 1200 pump should give you 200 gph at 4 ft head. I would try to do a bigger sump than a 10 gallon if you have room in your stand. Drilling the tank instead of doing a PVC overflow would cut down on noise by quite a bit.

HTH


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## john73738 (Sep 22, 2009)

Rinox, 
I am in the same situation as you. I have 75 gallon tank that I am starting a project on. My project is including a stand (Plans found here) with a sump built in. Cant post pics yet until I get to 5 posts :fish: so working on it. Would love to see a larger design picture of the 4" pvc overflow, very intrigued.

My questions on it are if you lose power how does the flow restart?

And I think that 1" is going to give you extreme flow. Found this on another forum:
Â½ inch PVC pipe gravity flow rate is about 7gpm = 420gph
Â¾ inch PVC pipe gravity flow rate is about 11gpm = 660gph
1 inch PVC pipe gravity flow rate is about 16gpm = 960gph
1.25 PVC pipe gravity flow rate is about 25gpm = 1500gph
1.50 PVC pipe gravity flow rate is about 35gpm = 2100gph

I believe in over filtering but 960gph for a 29 gallon tank would be overkill. Now maybe your design will reduce that flow and would like to know your thoughts.

Last thought wrap your pipe in insulation, have been told it will reduce the sound of the rushing water.

Good luck, and look forward to sharing with you as I go into the same kind of project. Will post pics as soon as I am allowed to.

Bear


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## john73738 (Sep 22, 2009)

Started a thread for the project I am starting.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... p?t=202582

Bear


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Alright, here's a detail of just the overflow component of my proposed sump system.










Basically, here's the idea. You're looking at a front view of the tank with the back flat against the wall. In the updated version, The overflow will be on the right end of the tank, and the return will be on the left end. You start with a dry setup. First, fill the tank to the disired level. Then, fill the 4" PVC pipe overflow chamber, which you can see on the right side of the tank. All the ride lines are 1"PVC piping. There will be a U-shaped siphon made out of 1" PVC (or heck, maybe I'll just use flexible tubing). The idea would be to completely fill the 1" U-shaped piece to prime it, and then put one end in the tank and the other end down into the 4" PVC. This creates an active siphon between the tank and the 4" PVC chamber which will always be active. It works to maintain the same water level between the tank and the 4" PVC pipe chamber. In the schematic above, the setup is at a point where the tank and the chamber have been filled, and the siphon has been primed. The sump pump is not pumping, so everything is just sitting there at equilibrium.

Now, to get the overflow working, you turn on the sump pump. When water is poured into the main tank, which will cause the water level to rise. Water will then pass through the siphon to cause the water level in the 4" PVC chamber to rise as well to maintain an equal water level. However, the 1" PVC pipe in the side of the 4" chamber is the overflow - water will spill through and down into the sump.

So, if my sump pump provides 200GPH of flow into the main tank, then 200GPH will flow through the siphon into the 4" chamber, which will cause 200GPH to spill into the 1" PVC and back down into the sump.

If there is a loss of power, the sump seizes to provide any flow to the main tank, so the water level stops rising. That means water will stop flowing through the siphon to the 4" chamber, and no more water will spill - in other words, we return to equilibrium. The siphon stays active though, so as soon as the power returns, the overflow resumes working. Just as when you cut the power to a HOB, the siphon in the inlet tube remains active so when power is returned, there is no need to re-prime.

Sound simple?

Now I'll answer a couple specific concerns:



eddy said:


> Edit: Ok i see now your siphon break happens inside the 4" pipe.
> 
> Is that the only reason for the spill over in the 4" pvc?


Basically, the 4" PVC acts as an extension to the main tank that allows me to drill in an overflow, instead of drilling the tank itself.



KaiserSousay said:


> Not true, untill you get into the high GPH, or Eheim pumps. I have seen many pumps in the 1000gph range for less ,or equal to the cost of a quality HOB.
> Love taking a bunch of stuff, laying about, and turning it it into a useful product.
> Anyone can go, with money in hand, and buy their way into a filter system.
> Your concept has my attention..very clever.
> Looking forward to hear how it worked out for you.


Hmm... good to know. TBH, I haven't even looked into the pump cost yet. I'm thinking I might end up looking for a pump rated for at least 200GPH at ~3-4' head. That should give me 4-5 times turnover per hour of the total volume of the tank plus sump. Thanks for the support.



mithesaint said:


> You're only going to gain a few gallons of water by using a 10 gallon, so you don't get that benefit. You don't have huge fish with a ton of waste, so you don't need the extra biofiltering capacity. You want it in the bedroom, and overflows are not particularly quiet. A sump just doesn't make sense here to me.


1)a 10g tank as a sump increases my total volume by 34.5%. It'd be the same as using a 70g sump for a 200g tank, which I think is about right.

2)I'm not using it for _extra_ filtration, I'm using it for filtration. All else being equal, not needing something is not a reason to not get it.

3)I'll get back to you on the noise when I detail the sump chamber, but I don't believe this will be any louder than an aquaclear 110 when all is said and done.



mithesaint said:


> What about switching the filtration from the 55 and doing a sump on that tank? Much more possible benefit there, and it's not going to be making noise in your bedroom.


Couple reasons. 1) the stand for my 55 is not conducive to hiding a sump underneath. I'd need a large sump, which I would have to buy, and a rubbermaid container would not fit underneath. Oh sure, I could build a new stand and buy new components, but thats more cost than setting up the sump on the small tank where I already have 75" of the components. 2) I think my sump setup will be as quiet or quieter than the 2 aquaclear 110's that are currently on my 55g.



mithesaint said:


> If you still want to go with the sump, a quiet one 1200 pump should give you 200 gph at 4 ft head. I would try to do a bigger sump than a 10 gallon if you have room in your stand. Drilling the tank instead of doing a PVC overflow would cut down on noise by quite a bit.


 Thanks for the pump suggestion. Sound EXACTLY like what I'm looking for. I could do a bigger sump on the stand - anything that fits in about a 48" x 12" footprint. I chose the 10g because I already have it, so its free, and because I thought it would be enough volume. I disagree about the overflow noise though... I'm not seeing how my design would be any different than the noise from a drilled tank.



john73738 said:


> My questions on it are if you lose power how does the flow restart?


i tried to answer that in my description up above... make sense?



john73738 said:


> And I think that 1" is going to give you extreme flow. Found this on another forum:
> Â½ inch PVC pipe gravity flow rate is about 7gpm = 420gph
> Â¾ inch PVC pipe gravity flow rate is about 11gpm = 660gph
> 1 inch PVC pipe gravity flow rate is about 16gpm = 960gph
> ...


Thanks for that info  answers one of my questions. First off, the flow will be equal to whatever the sump pump provides. This information tells me that as long as I'm not trying to pump more than 960gph, my overflow should be able to keep up. Since i'm only looking to pump in the 200gph range, 1" pipe is plenty big enough.



john73738 said:


> Last thought wrap your pipe in insulation, have been told it will reduce the sound of the rushing water.


Thanks for the tip. If I go this route and find noise to be a problem, I'll definately give this a try.


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## john73738 (Sep 22, 2009)

Your plan sounds very well thought out, and the theory sounds solid. Best to try out in a mock up. May try it myself. My fear for it would be that your syphon would not break into the 4" chamber if a power outage, or the syphon would beark and not restart after power returns.

Time to do my own "Myth Busters" opcorn:

Bear


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## mithesaint (Oct 31, 2006)

I tried quoting your post, and my computer threw up all over itself!

In terms of extra volume, most sump designs result in a sump that is only half full of water at most times because they need the room for the overflows to empty when the power goes out. I haven't looked at your design, so I can't speak whether a full sump at all times is safe or not.

If you're bored, and want to build one, then go for it. Having been there done that with a DIY overflow and sump, I just thought I'd save you the disappointment :lol:

Overflows are noisy. There's a reason for the Durso standpipe and I believe there's a Stockman modification somewhere too. Not sure how yours is going to be, but I've never heard a silent overflow. My aquaclears are silent.

The flow rates in the above table don't mesh with what I've seen. I can't provide a source, but I've always heard that 1" PVC will flow about 600 gph, depending on the number of elbows, etc. Either way, 1" PVC would be fine. I oversized my overflows and I think that cut down on the noise. Didn't eliminate it, but it helped.

I doubt wrapping the pipe in insulation will cut down on the noise. The gurgling noise comes from the opening of the drain pipe.

Good luck, and post pics when you're all done. :thumb:


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

*John:* I had a longer explanation prepared last weekend but the computer crashed.. Anyways, the syphon from the main tank is not supposed to break. But, water will only flow through the siphon when the water level between the main tank and the overflow chamber are different, and that will only occur when the sump pump is running. When the power is cut, the siphon stays primed (full of water) with no flow, so that when power returns, flow can return.

I did get to thinking though... flow requires a pressure differential, so I'm wondering how much higher the tank water level will be over the 4" chamber water level. I.E. If the sump pump provides 2 gph, how many inches of water difference will be needed to create 200gph through the 1" siphon... I could bust out my fluid dynamics books from college and figure it out, or I could just experiment. Basically, if too much height differential is required, I may need a bigger sump tank or a bigger siphon.

*mith*: thanks for the tips. My goal is not to create absolute silence, I just don't want something thats going to sound like a motor boat. My wife and I sleep with the TV on, and ceiling and window fans when needed, so noise isn't the be all end all here.

Your comment about the sump volume is a real concern that I recently realized. At equilibrium, the water level in the main tank and the 4" overflow chamber will be equal, but while the sump is running, there will need to be a pressure differential to create the flow through the siphon, and that pressure differential has to be created by a difference in water level. The difference in water level will be equivalent to a certain volume of water that the sump will need to hold when the power is off. I might actually do a calculation to figure it out, because I'd hate to buy all the equipment if its not going to work out, and I can't test without the equipment. I might end up either needing to find a larger sump, or go with a different filtering method.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

sorry dbl post.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Have been watching your project with interest.
Just a few thoughts.
Sometimes we can â€œover thinkâ€


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

*Kaiser*, I really appreciate your insight. Being an engineer, I'm well aware of the over thinking and over complicating problem. In this case, I think I started out with something complicated and I'm working towards making it simpler. And I still haven't decided if I'm going to go through with building this, or just go find 2 HOB's and call it a day.

Anyways, I found an animation that pretty much shows what I'm trying to accomplish. Its actually slightly different than my design, but... well here take a look and then I'll explain.










This is a production HOB overflow box. (By the way, I've never seen one of these before about 5 minutes ago ). The animation should explain how it works.

My design posted a few posts back essentially is attempting to remove the noisy overflow part of the design. The benefit of the production style in the animation is that the height of the stand pipe doesn't matter, and if the power fails, only a small volume of the internal overflow chamber drains to the sump, and not the entire water level of the main tank dropping. In other words, the sump can be smaller and run fuller because there is a smaller volume of water that will drain to the sump if the power fails. The penalty is the noise of the overflow. The challenge with my design is that it is necessary to position the standpipe (or in my case the tube exiting out the side of the 4" chamber) at exactly the right height. The benefits of my DIY design (other than cost) will be that I will eliminate the noisy overflow, and I will be able to draw water through the siphon from lower in the tank rather than from the surface like an overflow.

Also, here is a picture from the same site that illustrates why the siphon can not be allowed to break:










So if the siphon breaks, the tank can not drain, and will overflow the main tank until the sump empties and the pump sucks air.

For reference, the site where I found these images is http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/gt/index.php

I'm going to attempt another series of drawings to illustrate my challenges... And actually, I think I'll go back to a standpipe that exits through the cap at the bottom of the 4" pipe rather than sticking a pipe out the side because it will make it easier to set the height of the drain.










The first picture (above) illustrates the water levels with the power out. The system is at equilibrium, and no water is flowing anywhere. The instant the power to the sump pump turns on, the goal is to start circulating 200gph of water. So, 200gph starts flowing into the main tank, but no water flows through the siphon yet - it takes a pressure differential to move water through the siphon.










This second picture illustrates the water levels while the system is operating i.e. the dynamic condition. The tank water level will have to be some distance above the overflow chamber water level in order to move 200gph through the siphon, and this distance I call d1. The sump water level will drop by some distance I'll call d2. The goal will be to set the standpipe height in the overflow chamber at a height that will set the water level in the main tank at the desired level i.e. above the level of the bottom of the trim, but not overflowing.

Challenge #1: The sump has to be big enough to create the height differential (d1). If the sump is too small, then the water level in the main tank will not get high enough to create the proper flow through the siphon. In other words, the sump will drain faster than it fills, until the pump starts sucking air.

The way to calculate this is to first calculate what d1 has to be. I believe this will be a matter of simply using Bernoulli's equation. This wiki article should explain it better than I can: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siphon#Explanation_using_Bernoulli.27s_equation

So by knowing what flow rate I need through the siphon (i.e. the sump pump flow rate), I can determine what d1 will be. Then, I know the volume of water added to the main tank must equal the volume of water missing from the sump. In other words, d1 times the footprint of the main tank plus the amount of water in the standpipe and filter apparatus must equal d2 times the footprint of the sump. By doing this, I'll be able to figure out whether the water level in the sump will drop far enough to cause the pump to suck air.

Challenge #2: In my design, the standpipe position will determine the water level in the main tank. In the production HOB overflow version like at the beginning of this post, the water level in the main tank is set by the overflow, and the standpipe position doesn't matter.

There are 2 ways it can go - 1) the stand pipe is too low, so the water level never reaches the top trim of the tank. 2) the stand pipe is too high, so the main tank overflows. Obviously, the only problem with #1 is mostly aesthetic, but #2 can not be allowed to happen. For my project, the range of allowable water levels for the main tank will be such that the water level is somewhere in the top trim band of the tank - in other words, I'll have about 1" of leeway.

So, by working through challenge #1 above, I'll know what the dimension d1 will be for the flow rate I'll have. But, unfortunately its not simply a matter of placing the standpipe in the rights spot because there are a couple unknowns.

1) The pump my not flow the exact number I expect it too. If I get a 200gph pump, it might actually pump 180, or 220, or 500, or 50... hopefully I can find a reliable pump with good head rise and flow data so I'll know exactly how much flow I have at the position of my pump. Anyways, suppose I know my pump should put out 200gph all set up. I can then set the standpipe so that the water level in the main tank is exactly in the center of the trim. I can then calculate (using bernoulli's equation again) how much the flow can vary from 200gph and still keep the water level in the range of the trim. In other words, I can calculate what flow will drop the water level below the trim, and I can calculate what flow will overflow the main tank. All this calculating only puts me in the ballpark for the first trial run - since I won't know the exact flow until its operating, I'll just adjust the standpipe height after the first test run.

2) Another area to keep an eye on is that any blockage between the drain pipe and the sump could cause the water level in the overflow chamber to rise, which would cause the water level in the main tank to rise to maintain the d1 dimension necessary for flow. In other words, a clogged filter. Proper filter maintenance should prevent this from happening, but I'll just make sure when I get around to designing the actually filtering components, I'll do so in a way that provides bypass in the event of a clog to prevent this problem from happening.

So, I hope you've enjoyed this post and found it informative. Although it seems complicated, its actually all quite easy in theory. I hope I did a good job of explaining everything this time, but I'm sure it still makes more sense in my head than it does in this post .

To summarize, my design will function similar to a production HOB overflow design such as the one at the beginning of this post. The advantages my design will have, however, are that 1) there will be no splashing overflow noise, and 2) I can draw water from lower in the water column rather than skimming from the top. The challenge of the overflow component becomes positioning the standpipe in the correct position, which is based on the desired water level in the main tank and the amount of flow the sump pump provides. The production HOB design is great for production because it is a one size fits all system - it will work with a large variety of flow rates with no repositioning required. The penalty is that you have to deal with the overflow noise. My design could never be a production design because all of the components have to be sized and positioned specific to every new application. I actually believe my design is superior when compared to the HOB design because of the benefits I mentioned above, however at the expense of longer and more careful set up time and planning. At least for a small tank setup like I'm planning for. For a larger footprint tank, you'd probably need or want the internal overflow so that the sump doesn't need to be huge - but at that point, you'd probably have a drilled tank anyways.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

> or just go find 2 HOB's and call it a day.


 :lol:


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

And it seems like the image is not there... I did provide a reference to the source, but anyways, go to This link and scroll about half way down if you want to see the animation I was talking about.

Anyways, I couldn't resist running a couple calculations just to see if my design would even be in the ballpark of working... and I'm encouraged by my results.

The short answer is that I predict that my 10g sump and 1" siphon can support a maximum flow rate of 482gph. A flow of 200gph can be accomplished by raising the tank water level by about 3/8 of an inch over the top of the standpipe (the d1 dimension), which results in only draining less than 1g of water from the sump. The 482gph max flow rate would require a 2" tank water level rise, which would be supplied by draining 5g from the sump. The max flow rate could be increased by either a larger diameter siphon, or by raising the tank water level higher. In order to raise the tank water level higher, a larger sump would probably be required.

While the system is running at 200gph flow, there will be 29g of water in the tank, probably around 1g in the plumbing, and around 7g in the sump for around 37 total gallons in the system. At a power failure, there will be around 28g in the tank, around .5g in the plumbing, and probably around 8.5g in the sump. 200gph will provide a 5.4 times turnover rate of all the water in the system.

So it seems like based on these initial rough calcs, this system could really work well. Now, will I actually bother to build it?


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

KaiserSousay said:


> > or just go find 2 HOB's and call it a day.
> 
> 
> :lol:


haha very funny... you'd never know that my wife has been out of town since wednesday and I am amazingly bored out of my mind would you?

:lol:


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

> you'd never know that my wife has been out of town since wednesday and I am amazingly bored out of my mind would you?


Actually, sometimes her car has not left the driveway when the assorted goodies make their way from garage to tank. 
God, feel like such a coward sometimes.  
When she gets back, the tank is the first thing she looks at, especially if her feet get wet on her way by it.
:lol:


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Haha yeah. My wife came home today and was surprised I hadn't moved my second tank in from the garage yet while she was gone... I did clean out the area where its going though 

Anyways, someone linked this article in another thread, and I realized this is exactly what I'm trying to build.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_skimmerless_overflow.php

And here I actually thought I had a somewhat original idea 

Anyways, thats at least some proof that it will work. Now I only have to decide if I'm going to build it.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

bulldogg`s overflow works like a champ..personal experience with it. 
For a DIY hob overflow not sure why others do not go skimmerless. 
Yet another one of life`s little mysteries.


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## john73738 (Sep 22, 2009)

Rhinox said:


> And it seems like the image is not there... I did provide a reference to the source, but anyways, go to This link and scroll about half way down if you want to see the animation I was talking about.


 Thanks for this info. Been busy getting all of the last minute stuff done for my Wedding Monday. Can't wait to get back to my planning.

Bear


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

I am looking to build a sump and came across this article, it is weird in the fact the whole topic is about theory and the author mentions several times whether or not to proceed with the idea - then it just stops.

I am curious to know almost 3 years later, did you build the sump?


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

tim_s said:


> I am looking to build a sump and came across this article, it is weird in the fact the whole topic is about theory and the author mentions several times whether or not to proceed with the idea - then it just stops.
> 
> I am curious to know almost 3 years later, did you build the sump?


This is really fun DIY stuff. I love doing this type of stuff.

I bet you would enjoy it also. :thumb:


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## shutter72 (Mar 19, 2011)

haha i'm curious myself if he ended up building it? did the home flood and his wife kick him out? haha


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## 123vb123 (Feb 10, 2012)

Whats wrong with this?










Alternative: http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4218/unavngivetmj.jpg

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4218/unavngivetmj.jpg


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

hehehe I can't believe people keep finding this thread 

To bring some closure hopefully, no I never did build what I was talking about in this thread. I filtered the 33XL with 2x AC70's and called it a day 

The tank was used to grow out juvie mbuna before adding them to my 125g mbuna tank when it was up and running. I never did manage to do what I really wanted to do when I bought it, which was to turn it into a shellie tank for similis. Right now, the tank is sitting in my garage and I have no immediate plans to get it up and running for anything. Eventually, when I get around to finishing my basement, it may get set back up as part of a small fishroom, but thats a 2-3 year plan really.

So thats that. :thumb:

*123vb123*
Your picture is very similar to a standard internal overflow sump. You'd need a siphon break hole on your return line, otherwise your tank could drain to the sump if there is a poweroutage. I also suspect you would not get good flow through sand as a filter media used as drawn, so it would mostly bypass or back everything up if bypass wasn't provided. Sponges are a good choice, but I'd use them in a way that allows for very easy maintenance, something like Poret filter foam sheets stacked on end in the sump so water flows through them left to right.


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## 123vb123 (Feb 10, 2012)

im opportunity painting.. didnt read the thread..

no, lol. well glad it worked out even tho its not the way you wanted to for starters. Atleast u got the rest of ur life for dat


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