# Mystery Juvenile Deaths



## Adamtc68 (Mar 31, 2013)

Or maybe not so mysterious, but someone more knowledgeable than myself could likely help guide me in the right direction. I have a 75gal tank that has been running in my home for a little over two months and prior to that for approx one year. The substrate was the same that was used initially. I've added some THR, have two HOB filters that push about 400 GPS each. If more info is needed, I'll field questions as they come. Now to the issue;

I'm still learning scientific names, so I tend to use nicknames so bear with me. I started with the below mix of acei, yellow labs, and rusties. I added the ABNs and the hybrid cats within a few days, the fronts and 5 possible hybrids within the next couple weeks, and the multis about two weeks after that. So the tank has existed as is for almost a month, with most fish being purchased a month and a half ago. I realize I'm "overstocked" and have the intention of moving some off as I decide which ones do well.

10 Yellow Tail Acei
10 Yellow Labs
17 Rusties
4 Frontosa
5 Possible hybrid red empress / z rock type cichlids
2 Adult Albino Bristlenose Plecos, 2 Juvenile
2 Likely hybrid Synodontis Cats
5 adult Synodontis Multis

A month ago, I found one of my yellow lab runs dead in the tank and chalked it up to him being a runt and either getting picked on or not being able to thrive in the tank. About two weeks ago, I found a front dead as well. After inspection I assumed that was my fault for mentioning milder fish with mbunas, but they seemed to be eating and thriving as well. Today, I found another lab dead. My question is thus: I purchased most all of these fish at .75" or a little smaller in some cases. In a little less than two months they on average have doubled in size to around 1.5". When raising fish this young, are deaths like this to be expected as they work out their place in the tank? If it was sickness or something of the like, I would expect more fish to be exhibiting symptoms or would expect to see them. There are not many, if any, signs of aggression in the fish day to day and they're typically all hanging out together. The rusties specifically have started to do the "mating" dance very recently. It seems like the fish are fine one day, and then one ends up with no eyes and fins an hour later, stuck to the filter intake.

Any thoughts?


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## Adamtc68 (Mar 31, 2013)

I realize I seem to write a novel every time I post, so sorry if I'm rambling at times. Just trying to provide as much info as possible.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

I would find it unusual to lose small fish unless there was some aggression going on in the tank. Finding the dead fish with missing eyes and fins points to an aggression issue rather than illness.

Have you noticed any variations in your water test results from the norm?


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## Adamtc68 (Mar 31, 2013)

It's hard for me to tell whether the damage to the fish was pre or post mortum, because there was no damage to speak of earlier in the day and no apparent aggression. The water has remained pretty consistent. The only item I've changed has been to add the second HOB filter to handle the fish load, and to adjust the temperature. I had the water sitting at 79-80F, but based on posts here and research found that sometimes lowering the water temp makes fish less aggressive in some cases, so I lowered the temp to see if that had any effect. I've wondered if maybe the hybrid empress-ish fish have been the source of aggression, but I ha a death prior to that so I wasn't sure.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

You've got far too many fish in the tank for the long-term, and certain the frontosa don't fit in the tank once they've matured. What are your plans long-term?

I would get the water tested, as the fish are growing, and you have a lot of them, you could be seeing the water deteriorating as a result. I would increase the frequency and amount of water changes to start.


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## Adamtc68 (Mar 31, 2013)

The long term goal would be to keep a single group each of labs, acei, and rusties in this tank. I would think that by the time the fish are 3-5" depending upon species, I could start paring them down. I got the frontosa because I understood them to be slow growers and, I wanted to watch them mature. I realize they will outgrow a 75, so if I decided to keep them long term I'd likely get into a larger tank and have this 75 as a secondary tank, breeding tank, or just to grow them out. Timing will tell whether or not I can keep these frontosa and get into a bigger tank in time, or whether it'll have to sell them off and start again fresh. I enjoy the growing aspect of taking them from fry to adults, so that would be the preference overall.

As far as water, right now I'm changing water weekly. Historically I only changed 25-30% because I was under the misconception that the good bacteria lived primarily in the water. Once I realized I was mistaken I changed that to about 50% new water weekly. I may need to start changing it twice a week.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I prefer watching them grow, too.

Try watching your fish closely at feeding time. What are you feeding? Is everyone eating?

Rusties spawn early for mbuna. Although they generally don't cause that much chaos, in some instances they can. What you are seeing is that the mbuna (your more aggressive species) are going to mature quicker than the fronts. This is a very good time to make a decision as to what you are going to do with the fronts, because they will not be able to cope with the stress of this tank.

What are your exact water parameters, just prior to a water change?


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## Adamtc68 (Mar 31, 2013)

Presently I've been feeding them some flake I picked up from a friend (might have been OmegaOne brand?). I've ordered some NLS cichlid formula that should arrive Monday and I've not had any experience with pellets versus flakes so that should be interesting. I understand the rule of thumb to be no more than the fish can consume in 30-60 seconds with none left over. I will enjoy not having to shut one of my HOB filters off to feed them though, flakes seem to be a pain. They are all food crazy when I approach their "feeding side" whether I'm feeding them or not; even the multis which surprised me because they are usually hanging out in their caves and could care less about feeding when I approach. They are the newest addition, though so maybe they had to understand the routine. The frontosa were shy at first but they wade right into the middle of the mbuna frenzy and hold their own.

I changed my water today and am not in the habit of testing regularly, I'll admit, so I couldn't answer that at the moment. Our water is generally hard in this region due to the limestone, and I use prime dechlorinator when changing water. I've also got some limestone in the tank. That doesn't help with regard to ammonia, nitrites and nitrates, though; just all I can really speak to at the moment.


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## Adamtc68 (Mar 31, 2013)

So, about to do a water change today and made the investment in a test kit. The pH was somewhere below 8 and somewhere above 7.6. My nitrites were definitively 0. My nitrates were somewhere between 10 and 20, but not definitively to either side. My ammonia is somewhat of a question, because I know it's imperative and this is my first time. Here is the result:









The light in the camera phone picture seems to make it darker than in person. I'm inclined to call it zero, but I'm just not sure. My question would be as such now: if the ammonia is maybe .1 ppm, what could be causing it? I'm thinking part of it could be my error several weeks back of rinsing out my HOB filters with tap water, but maybe I'm wrong. The media is still the established media (one is two months old, one is a month old) but I'm wondering if I didn't accidentally flush some of the good bacteria in the process. I assume it could also be the fish load starting to catch up with me, and maybe I just need to do more frequent water changes. Any thoughts?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

It does look like you have a little ammonia from that pic...maybe half way between 0 and .25. That would not kill your fish.

In addition to what the others are saying...don't assume there is no illness because one dies occasionally and the rest are fine. This is typical of a disease like bloat, and it can continue to take fish occasionally until your tank is empty. If they are eating, it is not bloat. But FYI one death does not mean the rest are healthy. There is always a canary fish.


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## Adamtc68 (Mar 31, 2013)

Fair enough and good information. Any idea on the small amount of ammonia then? I realize the desire is zero, but aside from cycling I'm not sure what allows for it. This is and has been an established tank, and I don't think I have done enough to cause a recycle, but maybe so.

With regard to appetite, all of my fish (even the frontosa in this tank) are voracious when it comes to eating so I'm doubtful of bloat at this point. I'm not sure if secondary symptoms are necessary (white stringy poop, stomach distortion, etc.) but I didn't see any of what would appear to be that. Could it have been malnourishment? They didn't look too thin, but I did feed them twice a day flake, and sparingly. Maybe the ones who couldn't compete didn't get enough. Not sure. I'll continue to watch and monitor for any possible symptoms.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Either you have more ammonia for some reason (too many fish, undiscovered dead fish?) or less bacteria. All you can do is reduce your bioload, search for a ammonia source or let the bacteria regrow. Test daily to ensure it does not go over 0.25.

A fish that dies due to malnourishment would be very skinny with a concave belly.


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## Adamtc68 (Mar 31, 2013)

Well it's not malnourishment, all fish seem to be fat and happy. And I've got all fish accounted for, so I guess that leaves not enough bacteria / too many fish. Any tips on helping the bacteria grow? Or is that even possible with an established tank?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'd reduce the bioload. I'd start with the frontosa and the empress hybrids.

The ammonia is probably not what killed your fish so you want to keep looking into the cause of the deaths.


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## timbo6684 (Aug 29, 2010)

My tap water always comes back with a .25 reading of ammonia and therefore my tanks, all 4. I've heard it's because of chloramines. Can anyone help explain that? Thanks


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

timbo6684 said:


> My tap water always comes back with a .25 reading of ammonia and therefore my tanks, all 4. I've heard it's because of chloramines. Can anyone help explain that? Thanks


I believe some dechlorinators also have this effect but it should be noted in the fine print on the product so you will be expecting the 0.25 test result. The chemical may be bound so it is harmless to your fish but still show up in test results.


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