# freshwater salt



## Wiley (Jan 19, 2009)

i recently heard that it is better to have a little bit of salt (not sure of the amount) in a freshwater tank... the dude said there is even cichlid freshwater salt. can someone back this up? and if so what kind of salt and how much should i use? opcorn:


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

It is not necessary to use salt in a fresh water tank. It was once thought that it made a good prophylactic, but some fish do not like any salt in the water, while most seem able to tolerate it. It does have it's use in various treatment regimens, but is not needed for regular use. You will probably get other replies with anecdotal reports of how well a person's fish are doing, but most people don't use it as it isn't necessary.


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## Lister (Feb 18, 2009)

As far as African Cichlids go salt is extremely beneficial. The Rift lakes contain mineral salts in different levels. Adding salt adds many trace elements and minerals needed by the fish. Salt also contributes to their slime coat and helps to buffer your water to maintain a higher Ph with less fluxuations. 
Some people just use table salt mixed with baking soda, but this doesn't really provide the trace elements found in the rift lakes. You can use aquarium salt, marine salt, or salt specialized for African Cichlids.
Now is it absolutely necessary? No, it's not required to keep your fish alive. But it does help with breeding, coloring, and overall health. So you don't have to use it, but it does help. Any time you try to replicate the natural environment of a fishes habitat you can do only good.


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## Wiley (Jan 19, 2009)

thanks for the info


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Lister said:


> As far as African Cichlids go salt is extremely beneficial. The Rift lakes contain mineral salts in different levels. Adding salt adds many trace elements and minerals needed by the fish. Salt also contributes to their slime coat and helps to buffer your water to maintain a higher Ph with less fluxuations.
> Some people just use table salt mixed with baking soda, but this doesn't really provide the trace elements found in the rift lakes. You can use aquarium salt, marine salt, or salt specialized for African Cichlids.
> Now is it absolutely necessary? No, it's not required to keep your fish alive. But it does help with breeding, coloring, and overall health. So you don't have to use it, but it does help. Any time you try to replicate the natural environment of a fishes habitat you can do only good.


Not sure there's much in this reply I can agree with... 
you might want to read up on the discussion going on here: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... p?t=190540


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## josmoloco (Aug 23, 2008)

> Not sure there's much in this reply I can agree with...


Exactly what i was thinking. My peacocks, venustus, yellow labs and giant danios breed in untreated ,7.8 ph well water that is not extemely hard. they are all colored up quite nicely also.


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## Lister (Feb 18, 2009)

What I said is what works for me and has worked for over 15 years. No, you don't need salt and you don't need to have a higher Ph and you don't need high Kh but it surely helps and it replicates the rift lakes so why fight it? Why not just put a little extra effort in there to match water conditions? You can't just read every little article that comes out and take it as fact and say that salt is bad and does nothing. Try it before you make an informed opinion. Maybe this comes from my reef keeping background where water chemistry was crucial. As far as breeding Cichlids, well most Malawis would breed in a sewer so that's not much of a judge. But salt is not needed to make a fish breed nor is it needed to keep it alive. I never said that. I only stated what has helped in my tanks to improve fish health and coloring.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Lister said:


> What I said is what works for me and has worked for over 15 years. No, you don't need salt and you don't need to have a higher Ph and you don't need high Kh but it surely helps and it replicates the rift lakes so why fight it?


 When you say salt and flip from NaCl to mineral salts and back, it is very confusing to the average poster... NaCl is rather absent in the rift lakes, so why add it... also, why add mineral salts or NaCl to tap water without asking if they were missing in the first place? If you are attempting to replicate their natural water, should you not know what their natural water contains, what your source water contains, and know the exact steps to get there?



Lister said:


> Maybe this comes from my reef keeping background where water chemistry was crucial.


 I have to admit, this line plus the 15 yr reference bugs me... am I supposed to now list my 20 yrs of cichlid experience and my 150g reef setup or can we just say that nobody cares... words speak louder than qualifications...

P.S. I have used NaCl and mineral salts over the years in with Malawi cichlids... I no longer see any benefit, and I actually suspect harm from adding stuff to tap water. It's all anecdotal at this time, so I don't share my hunches, but it would be very incorrect for anyone to assume that because I am against something, I must not have tried it or used it for years back in the day when it was popular...


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## Lister (Feb 18, 2009)

I wasn't flipping from mineral salts to Nacl, I was just saying what different methods people have used. This was misunderstood.
The point you bring up about the tap water is good, and this is a good part of why people do different things in different geographical locations. But I wasn't giving the guy finite instructions, just advice based on what I do. 
And the reef keeping comment was not meant as an arrogant statement. I only meant that because of that I probably over-analyze my water chemistry. Many people with freshwater setups don't bother keeping there water at specific levels. I know it really isn't necessary either to the level of a marine tank, it's just habit. And you should understand this if you have a reef setup as well. So don't take my comment as a listing of my credentials or something.
Basically I'm not saying anyones opinion is wrong here, and I'm not saying that my way is the only way and the right way. Only that it's how I've always done it. I'm not going to argue points here with you, that's not why I posted. 
I am curious as to what kind of harm you've seen from adding salt to your tap water though. I personally haven't seen anything noticable. I've recently looked into salts labeled as African Cichlid salts, but haven't used them enough to say if they actually do anything more than marine grade salts. I'll have to used them for a long time to get an idea if they're actually worth it or not. I doubt there will be a noticable difference though. But if you've seen harm done from salts I'd like to know what you've seen so that I can keep an eye out for it. I just haven't really seen any negative impacts. As stated earlier this probably has a lot to do with local water sources etc. The only additives I've used in my tap water are conditioners (Amquel/Novaqua in the past and now I just use Prime), salt, and buffers. That's really it other than the occasional plant additives.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

You keep mentioning "salt" and then talk about it without it being at all clear whether you are talking about NaCl alone, NaCl with other salts in as well, or just mineral salts without NaCl.

Very confusing! I have to reread each sentence and guess whether you are including NaCl in a statement or likely not.

Regarding adding salt and salts... additional NaCl seems to brighten colors, though I wonder if it's not mostly skin irritation. I note more flashing in salt tanks and the brightness of the fish only match the brightness of fish in very clean water. So I wonder if "enhanced color" should be used as any sort of metric on these fish... I can't help but descirbe a person as more colorful after I slap their face around... reds, blues, etc. LOL and the enhanced color may be skin irritation for all we can decipher.

I do notice that since eliminating salt in all my tanks, Ich became a thing of distant memory. I even began buying ich ridden fish without concern as I knew I could fix em up... now, this may be the attention to water cleanliness that came at the same time I phased out salt. Funny how an Ich treatment could be suspect as a contributor to Ich, but as I say... it's all anecdotal so I usually keep it to myself.

Regarding mineral salts... I noticed a very general trend towards lower numbers of fry and more culls when I used to play with water chemistry. I never tracked results, nor ran tests, so again... not fact, just hunches.

Now, when I stopped mucking with water chemistry completely and focused solely on clean water, colors eventually far outpaced color with salt and salts, fry were healthier and larger broods, and I was a happier fishkeeper.

No more buffers nor KH measuring, mineral salts gone, pH tweaking- ancient history. Never looked back... pH of 7.6, GH of whatever came out of the tap (8 to 12 usually) and a KH of around 8 seemed fine... fish never seemed to mind minor fluctuations in GH, KH and pH either. 
They didn't even seem to blink at major change either, but that's a whole other topic.

and I'll restate, simply to make sure that none of the above is taken as advice or "fact"... this is all just my gut over a span of 20 yrs and the evolution I took from newbie to tweaker to KISS.


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## Lister (Feb 18, 2009)

Interesting point on the coloration being due to "irritation". I wish there were a way to really know if this was true on any level. Never thought about it that way though.
My tap comes at about 8.2 and pretty hard as well. But I used to notice a quick drop in Ph a few days after a water change. That's why I use the buffers. 
But I'm going to try your idea in one of my tanks. I'm going to eliminate the salt, buffers, etc and see what happens. Would be nice if there was no difference because it would be cheaper too. I honestly haven't ever "just used tap", but I see where you're coming from and I want to try this. I'll just have to watch my Ph though. I too have not seen any major negative impacts on a Ph flucuation here and there. I always get them with a water change, but the fish never seemed to mind. (Freshwater at least). My water paranoia is probably costing me money lol.
I do keep several socks of crushed coral in my sump as this seems to greatly help stabilize the Ph around 8.2. I'm going to lay off the buffers and such and just see what happens. If nothing else then it's something new to try.


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## Wiley (Jan 19, 2009)

intense


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Lister said:


> Interesting point on the coloration being due to "irritation". I wish there were a way to really know if this was true on any level.


 Agree



Lister said:


> But I used to notice a quick drop in Ph a few days after a water change. That's why I use the buffers.


 makes sense... but, it's amazing how we all (myself included) do certain things assuming X without ever checking into X in any detail. E.g. why does your pH drop?

Would adding the water slowly through crushed coral eliminate?



Lister said:


> I honestly haven't ever "just used tap", but I see where you're coming from and I want to try this.


 I met a friend (Grey Legion) who just adds tap water and never changes enough for even chlorine to bother his fish... it was enough to make me rethink some rather "locked in" thinking. Now some folks absolutely would have to add to their tap water once they had discovered that their tap was outside of the range of tolerance for Rift lake cichlids, but it's amazing how many people just assume that they are in this group or that without ever checking into reality. Myself included back in the day and likely even now!

Wiley, glad it's been both entertaining and helpful!


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## Lister (Feb 18, 2009)

I really have no idea why my Ph drops. I've been here around 10 years and it's always been that way. It's just weird because the Ph is so high and the hardness is around 8 and it still just tumbles. Honestly it really was only a major issue with marine tanks because Ph stability meant life or death. But I do have crushed coral in my wet/dry in my 150 Gal tang tank. This seems to do wonders for stability, but I've never tried eliminating the buffer to be totally sure. It just seems to hold better. This is the tank I'm going to experiment with. I think if I really stuck to a weekly water change it might not make a big impact. We'll see at least. I always like to experiment with things. But like you said, I too sometimes get caught up in the "do it this way becaue that's how I've always done it" mentality. I think everyone does, it's too easy because everything becomes routine. I'm a bit old school on many things. Which is good and bad at times lol.
I also new a guy a few years back that had a 75 gallon with a DIY undergravel system. (Not a cichlid tank). And he swore against water changes. He had this tank set up for over 12 years without a single change, just evap adding. (At least he said, I wasn't there for the whole 12 years). Anyway, the tank did very well, I think he had angels and some monster loaches in there. But to me the gravel was nasty dirty lol. But to each his own I guess...


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