# Failed Malawi Cichlid Tank



## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Hello all,

Tough day today and making some hard decisions. My tank (25g) had two issues - too small for my cichlids and an ammonia level that stays steady with no nitrites/nitrates. essentially, the bio filter did not establish. Separate post where all of you have been super helpful.

Lost a sunburst to unknown causes (probably aggression) last week and today, I came home to see my tank's #3 (in the pecking order) Otter Point looking mortally wounded   (in a fish net now hanging around in the tank).

I am now left with - *albino Lab. yellow, Benga gold, N. livingstonii, P. electra and S. fryeri*.

Here are my two questons:
1) My LFS will take them back to house them until I get a larger tank. Should I leave 1-2 behind to keep the Nitrogen cycle active? I was hoping for an "eventual" biofilter setup

2) I found this link for fishless tank cycling. http://www.fishforums.net/threads/cycli ... st.421488/
Can I follow this for correctly setting up my 25g for maybe a tropical fish setup? Any other link or procedure?

New to the hobby and feel terrible that I havent done much of anything right so far. Thank you all for the advice/support.


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## CraGunner (Feb 12, 2016)

If you're going to fish-in cycle go with some cheaper fish, but in my opinion fish-in cycles are fairly inhumane. The water quality if going to suck for that poor fish. On top of that, you're introducing un-needed stress in your own life because you're going to have to worry about water changes and keeping that fish alive, in addition to monitoring your nitrogen cycle. Fish-less cycling is much more humane, and much less stressful. But that's just my opinion.

That being said, don't get discouraged. Sure you made some mistakes, but you're already doing better than many would-be aquarists for the sole reason that you are willing to accept advice. You came to the right place for help and the great people here have you pointed in the right direction.

I was going to chime in on your other thread, but I'll do it here instead. The best advice for a beginner is: Buy the biggest tank you can afford (that still fits in your house). I know you're already pointed in that direction, but there are 2 reasons for that advice and I didn't see anyone explain why. 1- The obvious reason= We all get insane about this hobby and want to house as many fish as possible, because its so stinking fun, so the bigger the tank= the more fish you can house. 2- And this one is probably more important, a larger tank is much easier to balance when it comes to water parameters/nitrogen cycle. More room for errors, etc... If you get a nitrogen spike in a 25g tank, say goodbye to those fish. A larger tank is much more forgiving. So go big or go home baby! And don't get discouraged. I had a couple deaths right when I got my tank running as well, and it really sucked. But now that the tank is stable it's awesome, so don't get discouraged. This hobby has it's ups and downs.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The ammonia may have played a role. Great that the LFS will hold them, but really so that you can do your fishless cycle and not have the toxins.

I'd use the fishless cycle article in the Cichlid-forum Library and allow six weeks.

If you have ammonia and no nitrites or nitrates, you are not very far along so maybe not much of a nitrogen cycle to maintain. I'd get all the fish into a healthy environment and cycle the small tank with ammonia. If you get the big tank before the small one is completely cycled...you can just move the filter and continue.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Thank you.
The fish went back to the LFS just now. They are great and I now have the credit $s as well for future fish purchases. Just before I drove them back, my water tested like so:
Ammonia: 2-3 ppm
Nitrites: 0.25-0.5 ppm
Nitrates: 5-10 ppm

I will follow the cichlid-forum article on fishless cycling as well. Thank you again to everyone who read and responded to my questions. It was a stressful week but I think I came out wiser and happier for not having to fight the fish and their ecosystem.


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## ha77 (Dec 8, 2016)

If your LFS was willing to take in the fish...ask them to sell/give you some seeded media they have in one of their tanks. That will help kick start the cycle.


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## engotski (Dec 29, 2014)

ha77 said:


> If your LFS was willing to take in the fish...ask them to sell/give you some seeded media they have in one of their tanks. That will help kick start the cycle.


This. Or do you have a local forum for aquarist? I find hobbyist are very helpful in lending a hand. Get someone's currently in-use sponge filter and squeeze it in your tank to get the bacteria you need to get going.


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## punman (Oct 24, 2003)

I agree to the last two posts. When I start a new tank I take a sponge or Bio-Max or whatever and put it in the new tank with mostly new water from the tap (treated) and add a few fish immediately. I feed sparingly the first week and have never lost a fish or had stressed out fish - even with Tanganyika's.

The only tank I really ever cycled was 15 years ago.

Find a fish store or buddy who will "lend" you some media in a container with fish water but have the tank ready to go so when you get home you can put it in. I am not sure how long that media stuff retains bacteria without being in an active tank but I always shoot for a 30 minute window between tanks.


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## bossanova9 (Jul 9, 2012)

I'd get a 55 as a minimum, and an old nasty sponge from the LFS!


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## stingertc69 (Feb 21, 2017)

next time being new to the hobby look up fishless cycling and it takes about a month but if you do you can fully stock a tank and no worries of fish health



> Tough day today and making some hard decisions. My tank (25g) had two issues - too small for my cichlids and an ammonia level that stays steady with no nitrites/nitrates. essentially, the bio filter did not establish. Separate post where all of you have been super helpful.
> 
> Lost a sunburst to unknown causes (probably aggression) last week and today, I came home to see my tank's #3 (in the pecking order) Otter Point looking mortally wounded   (in a fish net now hanging around in the tank).
> 
> ...


[/quote]


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## ha77 (Dec 8, 2016)

I would just start fresh. Being new to the hobby you will benefit and learn from doing a proper fishless cycle. Rehome the fish and get seeded media as we previously mentioned. Your fish will thank you for it.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Thank you all.
I was out of town and came back to read all the posts. I had tried to keep going with current setup after returning the cichlids, but somehow after 4 days I cant get any bacteria to attack that ammonia (or something like that). I will call the LFS tomorrow to get me some cichlid tank media that I can use to kickstart the cycling. 
As far as new aquariums go, are there reputable online retailers or do most of you work with your local LFS? At this time, I am converting my 25g cube to a small tropical fish tank (when properly cycled) and gettting a 75g or 125g Aqueon (for the 48" and 72" lengths). I only have Petsmart as an option that I could find and most of the LFS in the area have steep aquarium prices.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Better to save up and buy the better quality tanks at the LFS. I order online almost exclusively.

Remember the LFS sell the bottled bacteria stuff (I'm not convinced it's worth anything) and may not want to provide cycled media.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> Better to save up and buy the better quality tanks at the LFS. I order online almost exclusively.
> 
> Remember the LFS sell the bottled bacteria stuff (I'm not convinced it's worth anything) and may not want to provide cycled media.


Thanks DJR. Sorry but just to clarify, should I buy tanks online or through the LFS? If online, could you share some reputable sites? Since the warranty is from the manufacturer, how would the LFS have better tank quality? Aqueon 75 is the same regardless of source right? As opposed to a custom glass tank, that is. Appreciate any advice here because the spend is approaching a splurge level now 

I agree with the bottled bacteria stuff - its like an inkjet printer cartridge for a free printer. Gets more revenue. I wouldnt mind buying them if it worked and have sadly reached the realization that they are just placebos at best. With almost $200 credit left at the LFS for the returned cichlids, I am hoping to get a more receptive owner for a media filter from her established tank, who would like to see me succeed and get both cichlids and tropical fish for 2 tanks!

Thanks again!


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## ha77 (Dec 8, 2016)

Skip the LFS stuff and buy a bottle of ammonia a from a hardware store. I used old country ammonia (red bottle) which I paid like $2 for. It took a little over 3 weeks to cycle.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

ha77 said:


> Skip the LFS stuff and buy a bottle of ammonia a from a hardware store. I used old country ammonia (red bottle) which I paid like $2 for. It took a little over 3 weeks to cycle.


Surely you don't need to use that now do you? If you started a new tank?


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## ha77 (Dec 8, 2016)

Fogelhund said:


> ha77 said:
> 
> 
> > Skip the LFS stuff and buy a bottle of ammonia a from a hardware store. I used old country ammonia (red bottle) which I paid like $2 for. It took a little over 3 weeks to cycle.
> ...


Me? 
No..i set up another tank last night actually. Threw in 3 seeded sponge filters. Plan on checking parameters and moving some fish into it tommorow. Gave the rest of the bottle of ammonia to my grandma for cleaning lol.
OP will need an ammonia source though if they rehome the fish and contine on with fishless cycle.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

ha77 said:


> Skip the LFS stuff and buy a bottle of ammonia a from a hardware store. I used old country ammonia (red bottle) which I paid like $2 for. It took a little over 3 weeks to cycle.


Fishless cycling is underway for the 25 gallon tank with Ace Hardware's ammonia bottle. Day 3 today....  Considering that I had a few fish in there for 2 weeks, should I expect a smaller cycling time? Or would it be about the same?

I am still evaluating the purchase of the 125g tank. As in where to buy from.


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## ha77 (Dec 8, 2016)

rookie-cichlid1978 said:


> ha77 said:
> 
> 
> > Skip the LFS stuff and buy a bottle of ammonia a from a hardware store. I used old country ammonia (red bottle) which I paid like $2 for. It took a little over 3 weeks to cycle.
> ...


Its definitely possible. Give yourself 3 weeks though.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Back to the well for some help and clarification please.

Been doing a fishless cycling on my 25g since March 31 by following the instructions/recommendations laid out here. Yesterday had the first "zero ammonia" reading and have been seeing a Nitrite spike to >5ppm (max measurable value) for 2-3 days prior. Did a check today and the ammonia test is not as yellow as yesterday (almost a greenish tinge). I havent done anything since the test yesterday so I am puzzled about a small increase in ammonia. To be expected sometimes or am I missing something here.

I was planning an ammonia feeding today or tomorrow - should i stick to the plan?
Thank you.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I use the API kit. I have a hard time discerning the ammonia results. I always test against some bottled spring water. Try the test again.

You should look to keep that nitrite down below 5 ppm, per the article. I'd suggest a 25% WC, followed by a test. See where you're at. If you're still high, do another WC the next day. A few days without ammonia isn't going to kill your cycle. A very high nitrite reading can inhibit the cycling process.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> I use the API kit. I have a hard time discerning the ammonia results. I always test against some bottled spring water. Try the test again.
> 
> You should look to keep that nitrite down below 5 ppm, per the article. I'd suggest a 25% WC, followed by a test. See where you're at. If you're still high, do another WC the next day. A few days without ammonia isn't going to kill your cycle. A very high nitrite reading can inhibit the cycling process.


Ok sounds like a good plan. Will do a water change tonight and see where I am tomorrow.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Sounds good. I'd check it right after the WC to see where you are, and again tomorrow. If you're still at 5 tonight, you know it's sky high.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Sounds good. I'd check it right after the WC to see where you are, and again tomorrow. If you're still at 5 tonight, you know it's sky high.


This is the tank of patience and learning! Phew! Definitely still 5pm! Probably more!

Guess another water change tomorrow. Keeping at 25% sounds like a good idea to avoid a major change in bacteria count or chemical levels. Can I do it bright and early or should I wait 24 hours?


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Did a second 25% WC (two WC in about 14 hours) and still reading close to or over 5ppm for Nitrites. I have no idea how someone can tell the difference looking at the API chart!! The tank has some plants in there as well - 2 Anubias and 1 hornwort but they are now almost 3 weeks old. The fishless cycling started about a week after they were in the tank.

I am a bit surprised that even though I didnt allow the cycling to complete pre fish loading, this tank has been "active" for almost 10 weeks of which 3 were spent with fish in it. Is it logical to expect a faster cycling in this case? Also I am now 1 week in since I got established media water from the LFS (water squeezed from 3 different tank sponges).

If someone has any ideas please do share. I am going to keep at a 25-30% WC (twice a day) to see if I cant cause the nitrites to drop below 5ppm (definitively)


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

The chart is tough to distinguish, for sure.

Too bad they didn't give you the sponge. Bacteria lives on surfaces; not in water.

Just keep doing your changes to get the nitrite down. Once you do, dose ammo to 1 ppm instead of 2 ppm. I don't remember what your nitrite was before when fish were in the tank. And keep in mind that you won't see a gradual decline, but more drastic. Once nitrite seems to be getting converted, step ammo back up to 2. Stick with it man...


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> The chart is tough to distinguish, for sure.
> 
> Too bad they didn't give you the sponge. Bacteria lives on surfaces; not in water.
> 
> Just keep doing your changes to get the nitrite down. Once you do, dose ammo to 1 ppm instead of 2 ppm. I don't remember what your nitrite was before when fish were in the tank. And keep in mind that you won't see a gradual decline, but more drastic. Once nitrite seems to be getting converted, step ammo back up to 2. Stick with it man...


Thanks, Iggy. Looks like my "short cuts" are not really useful because they may be inaccurate. On 3/30 after the fish were dropped off at my LFS, my water test read like so:
Ammonia: 2-3 ppm
Nitrites: 0.25-0.5 ppm
Nitrates: 5-10 ppm

I took my ammonia up to >3ppm with a small dose of pure ammonia on 3/31 and started the "fishless cycling". I have a feeling that this tank will take the full 40 days!! I was hoping to use the filter pad from here for my new 125g that is getting ready to start its own "fishless cycling" this weekend. But, no rush for sure - I want to get this right especially considering how much help I have received from people like yourself!


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

April 24th is a good day!

My 25g tank hit a zero for ammonia and nitrites. My nitrates are definitely less than 20 ppm today (first test for nitrates). Is that normal and OK? I do have 3 plants in there from day 1 (2 anubias and 1 hornwort). Would that explain a steady state nitrate absorption?

The tank is 18" cube. Any cichlid species that might work in this size tank? If not, I plan to convert to a tropical fish tank this week (only downside is that I will fight the pH with a buffer to keep it reasonable).

Thank you for looking at this post and letting me know how I am doing.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

18" cube. Any of the Tanganyikan shell dwellers, Julidochromis ornatus, Gombe, transcriptus, Telmatochromis vittatus/bifrenatus, Neolamprologus brichardi/pulcher types...

West Africa - Pelvicachromis kribensis types, or taeniatus.

South America - Any Apistogramma, Rams

Go through the Species Profiles and see what you like of these, pick one species only, and we can help from there.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Fogelhund said:


> 18" cube. Any of the Tanganyikan shell dwellers, Julidochromis ornatus, Gombe, transcriptus, Telmatochromis vittatus/bifrenatus, Neolamprologus brichardi/pulcher types...
> 
> West Africa - Pelvicachromis kribensis types, or taeniatus.
> 
> ...


Ok thank you, Fogelhund!

Did the lower start point of nitrates (right after ammonia and nitrite conversion) bother you?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Cycle and results are great. I know that took a long time, so congrats. Plants may account for 20 ppm. I'd dose ammo again and see where you are tomorrow.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Cycle and results are great. I know that took a long time, so congrats. Plants may account for 20 ppm. I'd dose ammo again and see where you are tomorrow.


Thank you! IT was a labor of love and patience but surely learned quite a bit. My second tank has also already moved to nitrites conversion. I just added ammonia to see how things progress over the next 24 hours.

If my 25g is considered "seeded/cycled", what can i take over to the new 125g to help that process?

My 25g tank has:
Substrate = gravel (natural)
HOB Aqueon Quiet 75
Aquatop glass heater
3 plants


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I think the suggestion was to add ammonia and see where you are. You want to be at zero for several days before disrupting the beneficial bacteria. No fish will reside in the 25G?


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> I think the suggestion was to add ammonia and see where you are. You want to be at zero for several days before disrupting the beneficial bacteria. No fish will reside in the 25G?


I am running the 25g ammonia tests now. It will be a fish tank as well. I had read about seeded media from one tank helping to kickstart the next tank. In my case I was wondering if the 25g could act as a helper for my 125g tank. Thanks.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Well it can, but it takes away from the cycle of the original tank as well.

And a newly established tank might be more delicate than a tank that has been cycled for months. Why not run the filter for the big tank on the 25G for 2 weeks?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I'm with DJ. It's a bit early to pull media from the 25.

Maybe a small handful of gravel. Put some in a nylon sack and place it one if your canisters.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

I will hold position to avoid taking 5 steps back!!

After my ammonia dose yesterday(1-2ppm post dosing), my water tests today (on the 25g tank) reads 0 for Amm.; 2-5ppm Nitrites; <20ppm Nitrates. Does that mean the tank hasnt finished cycling because the nitrites didnt get converted in 24 hours? The nitrates may be a false reading (based on the article) because my nitrites were not zero today.

Could use some clarification please.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Yes, you're not entirely finished. You want the double zeros after 24 hours on nitrite and ammo


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Yes, you're not entirely finished. You want the double zeros after 24 hours on nitrite and ammo


thank you so much for that clarification. almost there.....


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Just for a quick clarification:
add ammonia to 1-2ppm concentration
if ammonia and nitrites convert to zero within 24 hours, the tank is considered cycled.

Thank you.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

And then the zero remains for two more days of testing.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> And then the zero remains for two more days of testing.


Ok thanks for the help. Looks like I am still behind on nitrites (0.5ppm; 48hrs since the ammonia dose). I also guess that I dont need to test nitrates until the entire "72 hr" has passed without ammonia or nitrites. Then I do partial WC (small) over the next 24 hours to hold nitrates under 20ppm. Then I can add the fish.

However if I am not ready to add fish, I dose the ammonia every 48hrs to keep the bacteria "well fed" and then stop the dosing 72 hrs before adding any fish. Check for nitrates and do a WC before the fish arrive.

Hope I got this right - could once again use a confirmation, please.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Once the tank is cycled you don't have to dose ammonia, but I would add fish within a couple weeks.

You may as well test nitrates...if they get too high it can slow down your cycle.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> Once the tank is cycled you don't have to dose ammonia, but I would add fish within a couple weeks.
> 
> You may as well test nitrates...if they get too high it can slow down your cycle.


Thanks for that advice, DJR. I will be testing everyday now. Should I be checking/adjusting pH, GH and KH at all before the fish are introduced? This tank is going to be small schooling tropical fish for the most part. Cichlids exclusively for the larger 125 when its ready (again should I be checking/adjusting pH/KH/GH?)


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

What is the pH, GH and KH from the tap? Post your test results here. We know parameters for Malawi....but which tropicals?

You want to meet the needs of your fish, but yet keep things stable.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> What is the pH, GH and KH from the tap? Post your test results here. We know parameters for Malawi....but which tropicals?
> 
> You want to meet the needs of your fish, but yet keep things stable.


pH (tap & tank) = 8.0
Ammonia (tap) = 0.25;
Nitrites/Nitrates (tap & tank) = 0.0
KH (tap) = 5 drops; 
GH (tap) = 8-9 drops

25g tank:
I was able to talk to a different LFS today and they are on the same water quality as mine. He showed a large number of species (specifically mid and upper tank schooling types) that do well in the regular tap water conditions. Examples are tetras, rainbows, rasboras and a few smaller catfish species. I also will have some plants in there like Vals and Amazon swords.

The 125g tank:
couple of anubias and java ferns; some rock work with different types; maybe a small piece of driftwood

If I need to adjust GH/KH when would be the right time? Thank you.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

My 25g remains unstable on the nitrites. After 24 hours, I have zero ammonia (from 1-2ppm dosing) but stayed over 2ppm on nitrites. Glad i asked some questions here and not misunderstand that my tank was cycled. Patience!!!!

I am also learning that a 25g tank has a narrow band of stable operation and susceptible. Very very glad that my next attempt with African cichlids will be in the 125g with time given for cycling, rock work and planting to have some stability and error correction.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You know I have heard that, but I've never had a problem with small tanks being stable.

I think the key is patience for all the tanks and wait until you get readings for a cycled tank for consecutive several days.


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## stingertc69 (Feb 21, 2017)

you should try fishless cycling the beauty of it is you can full staock after cycled and no fish are harmed here is an article http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources ... ss-cycling and you have a much larger bio filter where you can do water changes a little longer than once a week i do them every 2 weeks when my nitrates hit 20ppm i do have live plants but i can replicate this every two weeks i feed everyother day


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## syackoski (Apr 29, 2017)

I see I'm late to the party but I've had success with quick start to get bacteria jump started.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

stingertc69 said:


> you should try fishless cycling the beauty of it is you can full staock after cycled and no fish are harmed here is an article http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources ... ss-cycling and you have a much larger bio filter where you can do water changes a little longer than once a week i do them every 2 weeks when my nitrates hit 20ppm i do have live plants but i can replicate this every two weeks i feed everyother day


The tank is now in fishless cycling mode at least since March 30 when I returned the cichlids to my LFS. Hoping to get all the benefits of this method once the tank is ready!


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

syackoski said:


> I see I'm late to the party but I've had success with quick start to get bacteria jump started.


Unfortunately I have not been lucky with bottled bacteria. I have tried Stability then teh Quick Start, Top Fin and also LFS water but no acceleration in the process. Another reason that I am learning patience the hard way!


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Check in with the group to make sure nothing is off.
The 25 gallon tank was operational with Stability for 2 weeks (not cycled however) and then with as many 6 Malawi cichlids for 3 more weeks after that. No changes to substrate, filter etc. Planted tank with anubias, java fern and hornwort. Returned the fish to LFS and Started fishless cycling on March 30.
April 11 is the first zero ammonia day. Have converted 2 ppm of ammonia at every dosing within 24 hours after that date. Seen nitrites spike and have been on 25% WC everyday since. 
April 24 was the first day of zero nitrites; Nitrates staying around 10-20 ppm.
Since then, I have dosed 2 ppm ammonia and wait for nitrites to drop to zero (ammonia still converting within 24 hours). Taking about 72 hours to convert with a peak of 2-5 ppm at the 24 hour post dosing mark.

I wanted to check in on WC frequency and if i should do a daily 25% change (even with nitrites below 5ppm). Please also comment if anything seems off in my cycling process and if results look reasonable/expected at the 30 day mark. Thank you.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Decided to replace my Aqueon HOB with a Cascade 500 canister filter ont eh small 25g tank. The HOB I bought seems to be reasonable on filtration but way high on the noise level. Also I dont think the filter has a good setup for biofilter and bacteria.
My questions on the Cascade are:

1) Its a new filter so how long should both filters operate to allow biofilter setup in the Cascade? How will I know that we are in good shape? The tank is on day 2 of Amm/Nitrite 0/0 readings so almost fully cycled.
2) I have two trays on this filter. Bottom tray will go in with the foam filters. The top tray will have Seachem Matrix.

I have a new 100-ml pack of Purigen. Which tray is it best deployed in? I also have charcoal included in my media from Penn-Plax. I was planning to use it in my Aqueon HOB until such time that I dont need the HOB filter. Would this be ok?
Thank you so much!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would not take it off until your tank is stable or two weeks whichever is later. When you do remove it, you will be removing half the beneficial bacteria.

Why do you need purigen?

Also no need for charcoal.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> I would not take it off until your tank is stable or two weeks whichever is later. When you do remove it, you will be removing half the beneficial bacteria.
> 
> Why do you need purigen?
> 
> Also no need for charcoal.


Thanks, DJR. I will leave both operational for a month to be safe. I plan to add the fish in a couple of days. This is going to be small tropical schooling fish tank.

I added some driftwood after 5 weeks of soaking and 2 hours of boiling and its slowly but surely still releasing its tannins. Have seen rave reviews about Purigen clearing out such discoloration and figured I will try it. Any downsides that I should know about Purigen or Charcoal?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Charcoal has to be replaced every six weeks. I worry about adding anything that's not necessary so problems are not obscured. Purigen helps control ammonia, nitrite and nitrate...all of which should be controlled by other means. Do you have tap water with nitrates?

For discoloration...why not just charcoal? The tropical might even like the "black" water. Driftwood can also impact pH.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> Charcoal has to be replaced every six weeks. I worry about adding anything that's not necessary so problems are not obscured. Purigen helps control ammonia, nitrite and nitrate...all of which should be controlled by other means. Do you have tap water with nitrates?
> 
> For discoloration...why not just charcoal? The tropical might even like the "black" water. Driftwood can also impact pH.


No nitrates in tap water. Would I place the charcoal in the canister (I have a bag from Penn-Plax with the new canister)? Most of the purigen reviews deal solving discoloration with driftwood tannins and while others do talk about toxin control, I am not using purigen for that purpose. I also have a planted tank in the 25g (will be heavily planted once they start growing out).

And you are right that I am not in need of additional chemical control of the toxins in the water as it will be cycled the proper way before fish are introduced (hopefully ready to go in 48 hrs!!). Driftwood's impact on pH in a tropical fish tank would be beneficial to lower the tap water pH (currently 8.0). Thank you for any insight and help.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yes put the charcoal in the filter. Make sure you change it as directed.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

When you do decide to remove the HOB be sure to cram whatever media is in it into the canister. That way you don't remove any of the beneficial bacteria.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> When you do decide to remove the HOB be sure to cram whatever media is in it into the canister. That way you don't remove any of the beneficial bacteria.


I really wish I had done some early research. My LFS didnt mislead (tons of water movement in the tank and filter) but I could have just started with a canister for a few more dollars. The Aqueon has plastic framed filter media - now looking at it, not even sure how the biofilter establishes. 
I will need to cut out the soft parts into pieces and use in the Cascade 500. Unnecessary aggravation!

BUT, on the plus side, today is 72 hours of zero/zero after a 24hr conversion of 2ppm Ammonia addition. Also planted heavy in the tank with Anacharis, temple plants, vals, hairgrass and charlie mint. Nitrates have not gone above 20 ppm. To confirm, the nitrates will never be zero from this point on - right?

Feeling a bit accomplished today   This will be a tropical schooling fish tank with light stocking of 12-18 fish like Tetras etc.

Am I ready to go to full stock or should I run another ammonia dosing run for sanity?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

You will show 0 nitrates if you perform a 100% water change. Sounds like you're good to go with fish!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You can also see zero nitrates with a heavily planted tank, especially with fast growing plants


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Very thankful to everyone's help and words of encouragement!!!

Happy to report that my 25g has fish in it again. A mix of rasbora, tetra and swordtail with stocking to full in 3 separate weekly additions. Tested my 24 hr water chemistry after 1 feeding and adding the fish and so far so good!

Thanks a lot!!


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Awesome news :thumb:

I know it was a lot of work and research for you. Good luck!


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Could use some help please with my 25g tank. It has been cycled for about a month and added fish on 5/4. The tank has the original Aqueon 75 HOB and I added a Cascade 100 on 5/3. I notice today that my Aqueon that has been running for 2 months is having water bypass issues around the two filter pads in there. This tank took a while to get cycled so I am afraid to disturb the equilibrium or lose the bacteria due to some quick fix or filter pad replacement.

Could please use some advice on how to get the water flow back through the pads (I have replacement ones) and not lose the good bacteria. Thank you so much!!


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

May want to try rinsing them in a bucket of tank water. Can't remember if you have chlorine in your water. If not, just rinse in a sink.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> May want to try rinsing them in a bucket of tank water. Can't remember if you have chlorine in your water. If not, just rinse in a sink.


I assume that I discard this water and top off the tank. Or can I just use fresh tap water that has been dechlorinated with Prime? These pads are not very user friendly (the pad holder is supposed to house the bacteria on its grid like surfaces) and they have carbon in them which I know is disliked by many.

One otehr question was if I could replace the two filter pads with new ones and hang the old ones on one side of the tank for a week to keep the population of bacteria stable? Thank you again.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Will the new cartridges have carbon in them?

If you're going to rinse them out just do so at a water change.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Will the new cartridges have carbon in them?
> 
> If you're going to rinse them out just do so at a water change.


Unfortunately yes. My worry is if I am introducing toxins into the water because of the bypass that are not detectable with the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate tests (all stable now)

I do have the new Cascade 500 in place but its only been 18 days and I am not sure if it can handle the bio load and also have the same number and size of the bacteria colonies as the HOB. I am fully stocked with 25 small fish now. The HOB is an Aqueon QuietPro 75 and I am thinking of just taking it out of circulation and keep as a backup after the Cascade gets established in 4-6 weeks.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You might be worrying unnecessarily about bypass. The tests will detect any toxins no matter the source.


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