# Question about fishless cycling and "peaks"



## bedouin (Jul 27, 2008)

I am setting up a 75 gal and doing the fishless cycle according to the instructions laid out in the fishless cycle article in the library. Anyways, I am a little unclear as to what ppm levels for the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate constitute a peak? It is a little vague there.

I have been cycling the tank for 2 and 1/2 weeks and my tank has seemed to level off over the past week at 4ppm ammonia, 1ppm nitrite, and 5ppm nitrate.

I assume that the nitrate levels are supposed to peak at a much higher ppm based on the fact that the card I use to read the nitrate levels from my API test kit goes up to 80 or 100 ppm and also based on the graph in the Nitrogen Cycle article, in which nitrate peaks around 40 or 80 (I don't remember which). Am I correct in this assumption or has my tank finished cycling with a nitrate peak at 5ppm?

Just some additional info: I initially had to add 2.5 capfuls grocery store ammonia (pure - though what % I am not sure) to get tank levels to about 5ppm ammonia. Once nitrite reached "peaked" at 5ppm, I halved that to 1 or 1.5 capfuls. Since then the nitrate levels have been 5ppm, nitrite 1ppm, and ammonia 4ppm. I have been adding Stabilize/Colonize (I ran out of Stabilize a week ago) according to directions on the bottle. I would have rather gotten someone's filter media, but I unfortunately do not know anyone with a tank 

Any help is greatly appreciated! Thanks! -Lela


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> what ppm levels for the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate constitute a peak?


That just means the highest point that it reaches. The exact measure isn't important and often is 'off chart'.



> Am I correct in this assumption or has my tank finished cycling with a nitrate peak at 5ppm?


No, not correct unless accompanied by a zero level of ammonia and nitrite (which had formerly 
'peaked' or gone to a very high level)

To start, the article recommends 5ppm, but way too much IME. Add enough to bring it up to 3ppm. If 
the 1.5 capfuls brings it to 4ppm, drop that a bit. After adding the dose of ammonia of course the 
reading will be 3ppm, but after 24 hours it should drop to 0 before adding more. Is is doing that? It's 
not clear when you're doing the test.

The 1ppm nitrite seems low. It should have gone off chart by this time. Has it ever gone above 1ppm?

Anyway, by this time (2.5 weeks) ammonia should be 0 after 24 hours of adding the dose of 
ammonia, and nitrite should be very high. Don't bother testing for nitrate yet because it's not a 
meaningful test until nitrite drops.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Have you seen the chart in this library article? I think it illustrates pretty well how these values 'peak'. 
Nitrate doesn't really peak, but rises continually until you do a partial water change to dilute it.

So 'the peak' is the highest value that it reaches before dropping. But, in fishless cycling that sort of 
changes and it gets confusing, I can see. I probably wouldn't use the word 'peak' in a fishless because 
the method is very different from cycling with fish. Each day you add ammonia, there's the new peak. 
But, nitrite truly does peak once and drop just as in cycling with fish (not entirely true, but don't want to 
confuse you more).

Hope I haven't totally confused the issue.


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## Zack2112 (Jul 11, 2008)

Hang in there, your nitrite will jump eventually. remember, you didn't use any established media to seed the tank so the whole process will be delayed as you are starting with nothing. also keep in mind that as long as your ammonia is going down, you are making progress. when you have been getting consistent readings of 0 for both nitrite and ammonia after adding ammonia to the tank 12 hours prior, your tank should be cycled, do a huge water change to get your nitrates down and start stocking! good luck!


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## bedouin (Jul 27, 2008)

prov356 said:


> > what ppm levels for the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate constitute a peak?
> 
> 
> That just means the highest point that it reaches. The exact measure isn't important and often is 'off chart'.
> ...


Oh, sorry I left some of those details out. I am testing the water BEFORE I add ammonia. Haven't been testing the levels afterwords. Maybe I am adding too much ammonia. Also, the nitrite levels "peaked" (I think) 1.5 weeks ago at 5ppm (it was that way for 3 days). That is when I halved the amount of ammonia I was adding, and the nitrate started to rise (but not by much).


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

So, after 24 hours ammonia is 4ppm?? The same that you added?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Only thing that keeps coming to mind is that you may indeed be adding way too much ammonia. A lot
more than 4ppm. It may be so much that it's inhibiting the nitifying bacteria. Your readings just aren't 
normal. Are you certain you're only adding enough to bring it up to 4ppm. A test afterward would be in
order.

Also, how many and what size fish are you planning to stock with initially? And what size tank? I'd 
consider adding only 2ppm daily . Most often, it's enough.


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## bedouin (Jul 27, 2008)

Zack2112 said:


> Hang in there, your nitrite will jump eventually. remember, you didn't use any established media to seed the tank so the whole process will be delayed as you are starting with nothing. also keep in mind that as long as your ammonia is going down, you are making progress. when you have been getting consistent readings of 0 for both nitrite and ammonia after adding ammonia to the tank 12 hours prior, your tank should be cycled, do a huge water change to get your nitrates down and start stocking! good luck!


Yeah, I guess the Stabilize/Colonize might not be working so well. There is never a guarantee that the bacteria in there are still living, so maybe I am starting from nothing at all :roll: I still would prefer to do it this way, though, than with a starter fish - to me, using starter fish just seems dangerous and almost cruel, IMO. But then again, I have no experience with that, so who am I to talk!

I will try to be patient and sit on my hands. I am anxious to fill the tank, I admit  I think I will start checking the water quality 12 hours after treatment as you suggest.

Also, as I mentioned in my last reply, I think my nitrite levels already peaked, it is the nitrate that I am waiting for. Sorry, I did not make that very clear in my original post.


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## bedouin (Jul 27, 2008)

prov356 said:


> So, after 24 hours ammonia is 4ppm?? The same that you added?


After 24 hours, yes it is 4ppm. The same - I do not know. I have only been checking it before I add the ammonia. Seems, though, from what has been suggested here, is that that is too much, and I should check it after, too, such as 12 hours after treatment. Yes? No?

Sorry, I did not mean to confuse everyone.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

You should check it 20 minutes after adding to confirm that you're truly adding 4ppm. If you add 
4ppm, and it's still 4ppm after 24 hours, something is seriously wrong. It is either not progressing 
normally or you've added a whole lot more than 4ppm. I wouldn't just wait it out. Nitrite doesn't 
eventually spike, it quickly jumps. That's another sign that something is amiss.

Try this:

Add 1/2 capful of ammonia and test after 15-20 minutes.

Use that measure to determine how much more you need to bring it up to 3ppm and add it. In other
words, if it brings it to 1ppm, add 2 more capfuls to bring to 3ppm.

Test again after 15-20 minutes to confirm that it did bring it to 3ppm.

Test both ammonia and nitrite after 24 hours before adding any more ammonia and post results here.

I think things are out of whack and that's the best way to see what's going on and get it resolved. It 
may take readings over a couple of days.


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## bedouin (Jul 27, 2008)

prov356 said:


> Only thing that keeps coming to mind is that you may indeed be adding way too much ammonia. A lot
> more than 4ppm. It may be so much that it's inhibiting the nitifying bacteria. Your readings just aren't
> normal. Are you certain you're only adding enough to bring it up to 4ppm. A test afterward would be in
> order.
> ...


Well, since my readings BEFORE adding ammonia today is at 4ppm ammonia, I think I might skip adding ammonia today to let the levels drop. This is my first time doing this, so I am kind of fumbling in the dark. I appreciate your help.

I have a 75 gal. I want to do a South American setup. I like the New World cichlids, and since my water is already a pH of 6.4 and GH/KH of 2-3 on its own, I think this is more suitable for SA than CA. Lucky for me, I live in NC where the soil is very acidic (thus we grow very good blueberries here).

Would like to put a decent number of fish in. Maybe a pleco, some smaller schoolers like danios, maybe 4-6 dwarf cichlids, and a couple of med. sized ones - maybe Geophagus (aiming for under 8" max, depending on the species I select). However, I was thinking of just starting with a few at first just to be sure. Don't want to put a lot of expensive fish in to find them dead soon after because there isn't enough bacteria. Better to play it safe, right?

I do plan on ordering the majority of my fish through the mail at one time (I can only afford so much on shipping), so at some point, there will be a large increase in fish in my tank.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

As long as you cycle properly, you can fully stock. That's one of the advantages of fishless cycling. I 
wasn't trying to discourage that. Just knowing what you're planning to add can help determine how 
much ammonia to cycle with.


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## bedouin (Jul 27, 2008)

prov356 said:


> You should check it 20 minutes after adding to confirm that you're truly adding 4ppm. If you add
> 4ppm, and it's still 4ppm after 24 hours, something is seriously wrong. It is either not progressing
> normally or you've added a whole lot more than 4ppm. I wouldn't just wait it out. Nitrite doesn't
> eventually spike, it quickly jumps. That's another sign that something is amiss.
> ...


Roger. I will try that and report back. Thanks prov356.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Ok, I'll watch for your post tomorrow.

On the stocking, if you go with 3ppm, you should be able to fully stock a tank with juveniles. It's 
actually safer than starting slow and adding a bunch later. Once you've built the biofiltration to 
handle a full load, I'd add it. 3ppm will do it and that's what I'd recommend. If you start slow, the 
bacteria will 'downsize' and then have to rebound when you add a bunch.

But first, we've got to make sure you're properly cycled. Otherwise, yes, it'd be a bad day for fish and all.


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## bedouin (Jul 27, 2008)

OK. Just to check and see what my ammonia levels are like AFTER (not before) I add the ammonia, I added the same amount as I have been - 1.5 capfuls. After about 30 mins, the ammonia levels were about 8ppm (maybe slightly less, since the solution was a little lighter)!!! SO, I think I have been adding too much. I will add half of a cap tomorrow, take some measurements, and report my findings here!


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Yup, that's what I suspected. That explains the readings you've been getting. Cut that to about a half 
capful and it should be just about right. I'll bet the readings over the next couple of days will make a lot 
more sense and things should start to progress again. :thumb:

I actually tested 8ppm one time to see what a biofilter could handle and experienced exactly what you 
were experiencing. There's a limit to how much ammonia you can add without inhibiting the process.


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## Zack2112 (Jul 11, 2008)

bedouin said:


> Yeah, I guess the Stabilize/Colonize might not be working so well. There is never a guarantee that the bacteria in there are still living, so maybe I am starting from nothing at all :roll: I still would prefer to do it this way, though, than with a starter fish - to me, using starter fish just seems dangerous and almost cruel, IMO. But then again, I have no experience with that, so who am I to talk!


I totally agree, i always do a fishless cycle myself, i was just reminding you that it will take longer because you were not using established media.

Also, about checking your ammonia/nitrite levels, I always check mine before i add ammonia, and about 20 minutes after. 4ppm is your magic number, you dont want to get too overboard. For me it worked out that 1 drop of ammonia per gallon brought me to 4ppm. so for instance, when i tested the water and i had 1ppm ammonia, i would add 45 drops to bring it back to 4ppm. (60 gallon tank, 15drops = 1ppm).

Say yours worked out that 2 capfulls brought you to 4ppm. and you check it at 2ppm. only add 1 capful. if you add 2, you are adding too much... i dont think this is what you are doing, but im just saying....

also i found when i was doing tests to figure out the right ratio of ammonia and water to get 4ppm i was having very odd and deceiving readings. I found that when way too much was added, it would hardly even register. as being anything. i tried adding a teaspoon to a 5 gallon tank, and it came up as 1ppm, i tried 2 teaspoons, and it didnt even register, thats when i worked backwards and started using drops. Thats how i reached the 1 drop per gallon mark. So if you are unsure i would suggest possibly testing a drop in a one gallon jug of water and seeing what it gets you. Then go from there. The amount your adding sounds about right, but it all depends on your concentration. I just thought this was worth mentioning.

Best of luck!


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## Rockydog (Oct 21, 2007)

When I did my first fishless cycle I was adding ammonia daily to keep it at 3 ppm but it wouldn't complete the cycle - it was inhibiting the nitrite cycle. What I finally did was wait till ammonia read 0 ppm then added enough ammonia to get 3 ppm (by checking 30 minutes after addition) then check daily till it dropped to 0 then add again to 3 ppm. The 1st couple of times it took 2 days to consume 3 ppm but eventually it would do it on a 24 hour basis. When the nitrites started to rise I actually stopped adding ammonia on a daily basis so the nitrite process could catch up.

So it worked much better for me when I allowed the ammonia to get 0 ppm before adding more and when the nitrites were rising I left the tank at 0 ppm ammonia for a couple days before adding more.

When the nitrites read 0 ppm I added ammonia to 3 ppm and when I had 2 days of 0 ammonia and 0 Nitrites I did a massive water change to bring Nitrates down and then was able to stock.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> when the nitrites were rising I left the tank at 0 ppm ammonia for a couple days before adding more.


Interesting approach and I've wondered if modifications like that could speed up the second phase of waiting for the nitrites to drop to 0 which is the part that seems to take forever. Did you happen to log daily results and, if so, can you give more detail on length of days for each part to complete along with total cycling time?


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## Rockydog (Oct 21, 2007)

At the time I was logging daily, unfortunately the log disappeared in a computer cleanup. But I did post a thread for help in January because my nitrites stayed high and wouldn't zero out. At that time the cycle had been going at least 10 to 12 weeks and just wouldn't finish. That's when I held back the ammonia (I think 3 days) and the nitrites dropped to 0 ppm. This is when I began adding the ammonia to 3 ppm - dropped to 0 in 24 hours no increase in nitrites and one more day the same - then did a 75% water change - added full bioload of fish 48 hours after the last 0 reading of ammonia and nitrites.


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## bedouin (Jul 27, 2008)

Rockydog - that certainly is interesting. One question - by letting the ammonia drop to 0ppm, though, for a few days, do you have to worry about starving the bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrite? I don't know how long you can go in not supplying the bacteria with ammonia before they start dying off. I might consider this method if the one I'm trying doesn't work out.


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## bedouin (Jul 27, 2008)

prov356 - Since I added my usual amount yesterday to see what levels it would raise my ammonia to after 30 mins, my readings today are, as expected, still the same as I have been getting - 4ppm ammonia, 1ppm nitrite, 5ppm nitrate BEFORE adding ammonia to the tank today. SO - I think I will skip adding ammonia today to let the levels decrease some more. Tomorrow I will see where I am and aim for an ammonia level of 3ppm.


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## Rockydog (Oct 21, 2007)

Well when anyone is doing a fishless cycle they wait 2 days after last ammonia added before adding fish. In this case I waited 3 days and added ammonia and it was consumed within 24 hours so there didn't appear to be any loss of bacteria.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

*bedouin*,

That'd be what I'd do. Don't add more. Let's see how much it drops after 24 hours. If it drops, add enough to just bring it back to 3ppm.

It'll straighten itself out and get going again. I'd pick a plan now and stick with it. It'll work, just takes time.

Let me know what it looks like tomorrow.


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## bedouin (Jul 27, 2008)

Still registering at 4ppm ammonia. Didn't add ammonia yesterday, and will not add it today, either. We'll see what it looks like tomorrow...

Also, what test kits do you guys use? I have been using the API ammonia test kit, though I don't think I am that pleased with it because the color card you compare your solution to has readings for 0, 0.25, 0.5, 1, 2, 4, and 8 ppm. So I will have to be guessing for 3 ppm. Also, the colors for 2 and 4ppm are so similar, it could be easy to mistake a 4ppm reading for 2ppm and vice versa. Just my little rant. I might go out and pursue a different test kit.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

If it's still at 4ppm, then I think you're right to not add more. You have to wait now until it drops before adding more. You might consider a partial water change of about 30-40% at this point and then test again. Like you said, the color differences are subtle and there's a chance it's even over 4ppm. Try to get it down to where you can discern a 1-2ppm reading.

Most use the API and the way to get around the subtle color differences is to add enough ammonia to bring it up to 1ppm, which is fairly easy to read, and then you just triple that amount to get to 3ppm. So, when you let it drop to 0 you can use that approach. Once you get the tank cycled, then it becomes a moot point because you're not testing that often for ammonia, if at all, any more. And if you do, you're not dealing with that much ammonia, but looking for tiny spikes due to some issue going on in the tank.


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## bedouin (Jul 27, 2008)

Hmm... still at 4ppm. Or what looks to be 4ppm. It could be 2 or 3, the colors on the chart are so similar between 2 and 4. Anyways, I will wait until tomorrow, and if it still hasn't discernibly gone down, I might do a partial water change.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Just curious how your readings have been. Has ammonia started to drop?


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## bedouin (Jul 27, 2008)

Sorry there. I thought I had posted yesterday, but I guess it did not go through.

Anyways, yesterday my readings were still at 4ppm ammonia. Hmm... Nothing added again.

Today the same, though the color was a little bit closer to the 2ppm reading. So, I did a 50% water change and now my readings are 2ppm ammonia, 1ppm nitrite, 5ppm nitrate. I have no idea what is going on. I think I might have killed off a lot of the bacteria in my tank somehow, perhaps I added way too much ammonia. I don't plan to add any ammonia to the tank today. I want to wait and see if the ammonia level will drop now that I have it down to 2ppm. I am going to treat my tank with Colonize (the commercial bacteria I have) as if I am starting anew, and we shall see.

What are your thoughts, prov356 and anyone else?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I think you're right in treating this as starting over. Shouldn't take quite as long though. Just check daily now that it's down to where it's more easily discernible and you should able to see if it's making progress. I'd blame it on the ammonia overdosing too.


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## bedouin (Jul 27, 2008)

OK - The ammonia is now registering at 1ppm  I think I might let it drop to 0 (or close) so I can get an accurate measure of how much ammonia to add to raise it 1ppm. Then I can raise it to 3ppm. Sound good?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Sounds real good. Must feel good to be moving ahead again. :thumb:


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## bedouin (Jul 27, 2008)

I checked ammonia and nitrite today - 0.25ppm ammonia and 2ppm nitrite. I added 1 cap full of ammonia to the tank, and after 20 mins, it registered 1ppm ammonia. Another cap, and after 20 mins I am at 2ppm ammonia. I am hesitant to add the third, though. I think I will add it, but I will not add any more until the ammonia levels have returned to close to 0ppm. Or should I try to maintain the level daily at 3ppm (say it reads 1ppm tomorrow - I would add 2 caps instead of 3)? Not sure which approach is better.

3 capfuls is what I had calculated I would need and was adding originally when I first started. I think this is correct, though this time, I will take readings before I add ammonia to calculate how much I need to add (if any) and also 20 mins after to make sure I am at 2-4 ppm. (I do not have a 3ppm reading on my test kit).

Also, from the formula given in the previously mentioned article from the library that I have been using, it is my understanding that I am supposed to half the amount of ammonia I am using once the nitrite levels "peak." So once nitrite increases and then drops to 0, do I add ammonia to reach 1 or 2 ppm instead of 3 (same as adding 1.5 capfuls when I am at 0ppm ammonia)?

Thanks! I think I might be getting back on track thanks to you! This process is a little confusing for a first-timer.

-Lela


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## bedouin (Jul 27, 2008)

prov356 said:


> Sounds real good. Must feel good to be moving ahead again. :thumb:


Yes, it does. That was rather frustrating.


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