# Freak-OUT Mbuna!?



## L7 (Feb 5, 2009)

Helo. ok i'm new here so bare with me. I've been keeping Mbuna for 2 months. i think i seriously overstock my 70 gallon tank with about 22 freaking Mbuna. Yep, FREAKING Mbuna! Whenever i approach the tank everyone of them vanish into the abyss.. ok, to the rock work. So the question is, is this normal? It seems like my Mbuna afraid of any people approach their tank, including me!  even during feeding time, i have to stay like statue so as not to freak them out and gone hiding. NOt even Yawning! This has never happened before for the 1st month.

So, if this not normal, why it has happen? i spend atleast 3 hours in a day with them if i'm busy, but spend most my time with them during weekend. i even talk to that freaking fish! so there should be no reason why they should afraid of people.

I have like 5 auratus (one of them albino), 7 blue zebra, 3 red zebra, 4 yellow lab and 3 socolofi albino. all of them over 3 inch. No aggression issues, i guess they have done their pecking order, in fact i'm surprise they seems to school more often than usual and since then have noticed their freaking behavior. These behavior started 2 weeks ago after adding 3 more blue zebra to (i think) properly stock the aquarium. Before this, their behavior more normal towards people. i'm looking at them they looking at me. Now, they looking at me while i'm looking at the rock work. :? So could it be that they are now so comfortable at each other and the environment they in that their wild instinct take over? It seems like they are like looking at each other back, alerting others when danger come, scouring back to their rock, hurdling together like bunch of newborn fry. Bizarre. i know they are not schooling fish. only 1 male auratus had claim territory while others were schooling doing their usual Mbuna stuff.

Ammonia, nitrite are zero. PH 7.8 - 8. water quite hard. not sure about nitrate though. Water change once a week 20%-30% and lots of cave, nooks and crannies just for them.


----------



## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

maybe they are worried that when you come to the tank more fish will go into their aquarium


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

What are the dimensions of the tank?

Did these fish go through the cycling of the the tank?

I would get the nitrate tested.

What type test kits do you have? Strips or liquid reagent?

The stock list is very volatile, so aggression may be part of your problem, whether you witness it or not. But, it's a young tank, so let's rule out everything else first.


----------



## L7 (Feb 5, 2009)

My tank is 4 feet. I'm using reagent test kit. The tank is not new, only the fishes are new. So far they are quite tolerate at each other. I hope so, cause if they start killing at each other, i have to re-home some of them (probably auratus). Well thanks anyway, probably i'll have a go at rearrange the rock work.


----------



## Hoosier Tank (May 8, 2007)

What color shirt are you wearing when you go to the tank?

Sorry, inside joke with *cichlidaholic* and I...

I am inclined to believe aggression has a big part in this. Stress level maybe increasing after 2 months as they are sorting out the dominance. But as pointed out, water quality may be it as well.


----------



## CichlidWhisperer (Apr 12, 2008)

Hi, I don't think it is over stocked at all. But, I would worry about the mixes you have in there because they are very likely to interbreed.

As for them hiding, honestly I find with Mbuna, the more in there the more they are out and about.

So IMO, I would get rid of the red zebras (although I love their color) and add some more labs and some more socolofi. The reason I choose the red zebras is IME they are most likely to breed with both the labs and the blue zebra and so it is the easiest just to remove those. All of the others can interbreed also, but IME they are less likely to and if you have many of the same species for the boys to choose from they are less likely to interbreed as well.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

For a 4 foot tank, the stock list is even more volatile.

I would work on getting things straightened out now, before you start having all kinds of stress related illnesses and deaths. At 3 inches +, you don't have much time before it all blows up on you. And as you can see, the fish are already skittish.

Stress can play a huge part in the downfall of a tank. Since you're new to cichlids, you may not be aware of how intense it can get. Stressed fish usually turn into sick fish, and at that point, it can be impossible to get rid of any by any way other than euthanasia. That's not really fair to the fish.

If you're interested in breeding, I wouldn't recommend anymore than 3 species, 4 max, for this size tank. I would definitely remove the auratus from the equation - they are easily one of the most aggressive mbuna and I've seen people give up when trying to keep them in much larger tanks than yours, but as CichlidWhisperer pointed out, the remaining groups would be a crossbreeding nightmare...Not a problem unless you plan to distribute fry from the tank into the hobby...

HTH


----------



## non_compliance (Dec 4, 2008)

Hoosier Tank said:


> What color shirt are you wearing when you go to the tank?
> 
> .


funny you should say that... I don't know the joke, but I do know that it can have strange effects...

the company I work for takes care of a japanese garden with about 250+ koi... We've been trying to net them out of there to get rid of some because there are WAAAAY too many. Started with 5, and after a couple of spawns, BOOM... too many fish... we welcome the local down-town herrons. (herrons down town is lolz)

Anyways, since we started netting them, you can't approach the pond in a RED shirt wihout the fish FREAKING and going to the deepest part in the middle.. hehe.. smart suckers.

Also, my fish at home will come to the glass for anyone with a goatee (like me) but pretty much ignore any one else....

Anyone else have stuff like this happen? Is it just coincedence? Cracks me up either way.


----------



## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

I was using 4 foot long red straight edge to measure my tank with fish in it one time. THey freaked out. Guess they thought it was a giant red stick fish.


----------



## CichlidWhisperer (Apr 12, 2008)

My Mbuna, JDs, and Orange Chromides definitely know the difference between me and other people.. Not sure based on what though.. they come to the tank and wiggle for food when ever I am around.

I don't think my tanganyikans care.. they go about their own business unless food is put in and then they eat that and ignore the outside world.


----------



## edouthirt (Jan 22, 2008)

> My Mbuna, JDs, and Orange Chromides definitely know the difference between me and other people.. Not sure based on what though.. they come to the tank and wiggle for food when ever I am around.
> 
> I don't think my tanganyikans care.. they go about their own business unless food is put in and then they eat that and ignore the outside world.


My mbuna go crazy no matter who is at the front of the tank... unless the person is yelling or making sudden movemnets that scare them... They are such hams!! And everyone is always like "Dude, you're fish look like they are starving... you should feed them more!" and then I reply... "You are letting them out smart you."

But, I have the same experience with my tang tank... they could care less. Once I open the hood... they get a bit excited... then they eat (rather slowly actually... almost like they have manners). Maybe they could teach my mbuna something...


----------



## Hoosier Tank (May 8, 2007)

non_compliance said:


> Hoosier Tank said:
> 
> 
> > What color shirt are you wearing when you go to the tank?
> ...


Ya see Kim, it's not just me and "Dewdrop"  http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=182540
Seriously, All my fish know when it's me and when it's not... And they know I wear a blue or Black shirt 90% of the time. They do come to the wife on occaision but will swim to the rocks when it's anyone else.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

So, now you know...Camouflage is the way to go! :lol:


----------



## non_compliance (Dec 4, 2008)

another one for the "you know you're a fish geek" thread...

..... when you have to dress in certain colors so you don't scare your fish...


----------



## CichlidWhisperer (Apr 12, 2008)

LMAO.. no that is funny!


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I've said all along that you have to dabble in "fishy psychiatry" a bit in order to figure these fish out...

Maybe we need a fashion consultant expert, as well. :wink:


----------



## Hoosier Tank (May 8, 2007)

Patening my "Stealth Ninja Fish Feeding Suite"


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Hey what happened to Dewdrop anyway?


----------



## Hoosier Tank (May 8, 2007)

Yeah, I wondered the same thing when I posted that... miss her southern charm.


----------



## 1_cich_fish (Feb 1, 2009)

i say...try rearranging the rocks around in your tank  i don't know . its worth a try !


----------



## L7 (Feb 5, 2009)

Done rearranging the rock work but to no avail. The fish is even more spook although they r quite confuse now lol. However i did noticed something, of all the fish there are 3 of mbuna slightly smaller than the rest. When approaching the tank they are the one that freak out first. MaYBE, when spook they release some minute distress signal that says 'MoNSTER! Hide!' so the other fish sense this thus gone hiding themselves. Hmm.. Just a thought though lol


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'll bet if you remove the "spookable" ones the rest will calm down. All it takes is one.

Also if they have been in the tank 3 months but rocks have been rearranged every month...maybe they still need more settling in time. Each time rocks are rearranged they have to re-establish territories which is a lengthy process...first hiding, then fighting and finally status quo is reached.


----------



## Hoosier Tank (May 8, 2007)

DJRansome said:


> ...first hiding, then fighting and finally status quo is reached.


Excellent point!


----------



## L7 (Feb 5, 2009)

Well i'm just wondering if i put some small dither fish in there. Would that help? If so, what fish do you recommend?


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'd remove the auratus and add females to your other groups instead of adding dithers. Also how long has it been since you last rearranged the rocks or added fish? 30 days or more? The tank is 48" long but how wide? 12" or 18"?


----------



## L7 (Feb 5, 2009)

Last i add fish was like 3 weeks ago and rearrange the rock few days ago after posting this topic. The tank is 18 inch wide. I don't know what to do anymore. Mbuna shouldn't spook so much. They like wild fish. Back then they were eager to greet me as they associate me with food. Now not anymore. I have to put the food down first, then sit still and quiet. Only then they all eat the food well, in mbuna fashion. I don't find anything abnormal in their health, only their behavior drastically change. I decorated my tank with lots of rocks and created lots of caves enough for all of them. Do you think this has anything to do with their behavior? Maybe i have created environment comfortable enough for their wild instinct to take over. Oh well, guess have to wait and see for next couple of month. If nothing happen, guess i have to get rid of them and put something interesting to watch and intelligent enough to recognised me. Anyway, thanx everyone for your input


----------



## Hoosier Tank (May 8, 2007)

I bet if you give it time like you sald, they will calm down.


----------



## emptyhead (Apr 16, 2007)

This may sound unorthodox for mbuna, but first, I would remove all the rocks and observe their behavior. I would do this when I have some time to invest in sitting their and watching them. Depending on what you see, you could add rocks back one at a time, maybe find out which fish may need removed, etc.

I had issues at one point with a 55g mbuna tank and did this and ended up only keeping 4 large vertical rocks that broke line of site and offered no caves. I don't know if I would recommend this, as you have to really keep an eye on behavior/aggression issues, but they stopped hiding and stopped being skittish.

Second - overstock. For me, a large group of yellow labs did the job in the 55g.

When I was stocking a 150g mbuna tank, the mbuna were very skittish as well. I already had the tank overstocked, but mostly with young fish (ie: 40 demasoni fry), so I added 16 giant danios. This did the job perfectly. The danios swam in the upper part of the tank in the open water and never hid, this made the mbuna more at home. I have since removed all but 2 of the giant danios, and the mbuna are doing well.


----------



## L7 (Feb 5, 2009)

Thats what i also thought that mbuna should be like 'out going' type of fish. I already overstock my tank with 22 mbunas. But they are all cowar to the rock work. I've been thinking to removed the rock slowly, however because some male mbuna (male auratus and zebras) already claim territories i'm afraid that i'm only make it worst where the weaker ones (particularly the smaller females) have no where to hide and males start to fight over territories. It will be an all out war! Well i guess they are not called rock fish for nothing.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

IMO they are cowering because they are afraid. Try overstocking with fewer species but larger groups. Remove the species that are too aggressive for your tank, like auratus. Add females to the remaining species to keep the overstocked level. Four species, six of each would be good. And allow the tank to settle (no changes) for at least one month.


----------



## L7 (Feb 5, 2009)

DJRansome said:


> IMO they are cowering because they are afraid. Try overstocking with fewer species but larger groups.


Thats what i'm want to know what why/what make them afraid. Ok, i'll try to observed them within this few weeks and try to find the problem. Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't think you will observe anything. If they are hiding, you will just see them hide. You have to either wait a month to see if they settle in, or make a change and THEN wait a month. They are afraid because (a) the auratus are too aggressive and (b) each species does not have enough fish in "their" species group to make them feel safe in a crowd.


----------



## CichlidWhisperer (Apr 12, 2008)

I agree with DJRansome!


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

DJRansome said:


> IMO they are cowering because they are afraid. Try overstocking with fewer species but larger groups. Remove the species that are too aggressive for your tank, like auratus. Add females to the remaining species to keep the overstocked level. Four species, six of each would be good. And allow the tank to settle (no changes) for at least one month.


Excellent advice!

And to the OP, overstocking doesn't help if you choose the wrong fish to overstock the tank with.

Alot of different things can lead to problems like you are having. The most blatant issue you have in the tank is with your stocking choices. Whether it is what is causing your fish to hide or not doesn't really matter. If you remove some of the fish and work on stocking your tank properly, things are going to change, and your fish will feel more comfortable. Right now, all you have to have is one spooked fish that is easily startled, and when that fish darts for cover, they all follow suit.

Right now, it's easy to fix. If you wait until they become ill from the stress of it all, it won't be so easy... :thumb:


----------



## gaz131 (Apr 14, 2008)

My fish did the same with me for a few months or so, now they all come up as soon as the cat sits on the tank thinking that they will get some food, they even know that its feeding time when they see the tub and go mad till they get there fill and back off to what ever they was doing ,give them time they will come good am sure


----------



## L7 (Feb 5, 2009)

DJRansome said:


> I don't think you will observe anything. If they are hiding, you will just see them hide


Well actually if i just sit still infront of their tank they will eventually comes out and do their usual mbuna stuff. Only then i will be able to observed them. 


> They are afraid because (a) the auratus are too aggressive and (b) each species does not have enough fish in "their" species group to make them feel safe in a crowd.


I know auratus has very bad reputation for being overly aggressive, however that is not the case in my tank. I raised them when they barely just 1.5 inch long and have since mix them with other Mbuna juvenile same size as them. like i said before they were swimming together as in they were school fish and swim along just fine. Yes there are occasionally chase here and there now and then but i think that is normal for fish live in community more so with mbuna. there were no fin damage, scale loss etc that had resulted from aggression from any fish in the tank. Even when the male start to show interest in breeding, he would ignore the other fish and just flirting to the female (which i think is holding now because of 'something in the mouth' look) in-fact, the dominant fish in the tank is a big male zebra. no auratus dare stands against him. so i rule out aggression as the main cause from auratus or other mbuna.

*update*
I just bought 6 golden barb fry only 1 cm to 1.5 cm long and guess what.. they survive in my mbuna tank! i seriously thought they gonna be eaten straight away after i put it in the tank. to my surprise, they made it to their first night! Not only that, it seems that because this fish like to school and swim like they own the tank, my mbuna seems to gain confidence to come out from their hiding spot! i've never been happier! :lol: they still try to get away when i approached the tank, but now they seems hesitant because they saw the golden barb swimming infront to greet me lol. Well i thought to get zebra danio. unfortunately my lfs have run out of danios so i got my self the next best thing, school of golden barb (only fish swim in school in the store besides danio). maybe i will replace them with danio when they are eventually available, but for now lets see how things progress. well this might just work!


----------



## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

sometimes mbuna will live with fish you wouldnt expect them too. My parents tank had a lot of little catfish and 1 guppie. I put 4 yellow labs in their and none of them messed with the guppie or the catfish. Then i put one peacock in their. Guppie went bye bye. Guess the peacock got hungry one night. :drooling: :fish:  :?


----------

