# one-way check valve for sump return line??



## markw (Feb 20, 2004)

Just finished installing new sump(30gal) for 220gal. display tank. Just found major problem with design. I have shuttle valves on both the drain line into sump, and also the return lines into tank. These lines are built into the background and are below the water line. As I was testing the set-up, I turned the pump off, and expected the water level in the sump to rise slightly as the overflow settled, but what happened was the return lines began syphoning into the sump, so if I hadn't shut the valve I would have had almost 220gals. flow into the sump!!!
I can't leave it like it is, because next power failure, I'm headed for the doghouse! All I can think to use is a one-way check valve instead of the shuttle valve. Anybody have any suggestions.
Thanks


----------



## badlad53 (Nov 3, 2010)

I have 2 check valves on each line on my current setup, and plan to do the same on the new one (ocd?) They work great and are easy to install underneath the tank... its still I good idea to test them a couple times a year though, in my ocd opinion...


----------



## markw (Feb 20, 2004)

badlad53 said:


> I have 2 check valves on each line on my current setup, and plan to do the same on the new one (ocd?) They work great and are easy to install underneath the tank... its still I good idea to test them a couple times a year though, in my ocd opinion...


Are those one way valves? Are they easy to find, as in Home Depot etc?
Thanks


----------



## badlad53 (Nov 3, 2010)

Yes one way valves. I'm not sure about homedepot or lowes (but probably) I get most of that stuff at mclendons... certainly any plumbing supply store would have them though, and tons of places online though ya probably don't wanna wait that long...

Google plumbing supply in your area if you don't have a mclendons... that's where id go...


----------



## badlad53 (Nov 3, 2010)

Oh probably this is too obvious, but make sure you install them the correct direction lol


----------



## Ed_209 (Dec 22, 2004)

I got a check valve for mine from from www.mops.ca
I had the same thing happen to me. 
I do have a bulkhead overflow in my sump that runs into the sewage pipe,in case something happens.


----------



## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

*I do have a bulkhead overflow in my sump that runs into the sewage pipe,in case something happens*

Ideal :thumb: 
If you have reasonable access.


----------



## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

Drill a hole in your supply and return just below the waterline and when power is off that will break siphon.

I would not rely on a check valve to keep our floor dry. Not saying they are a bad idea, just saying the system should work without them and only use them for piece of mind. I don't have need for them as they add restriction to the drain.


----------



## markw (Feb 20, 2004)

Thanks for all the suggestions. I found a brass one way check valve and installed it (yes, in the right direction!) It does reduce the pressure slightly, but definately worth it, if it saves a major overflow. Fox, you mention drilling a small hole just below the water line. Would it not leak at the hole? I understand the theory, but just not so sure about the practical portion. I'm running into all these problems because this will be the first big tank "upstairs" after many years of a big fish room in the basement. Never worried when things overflowed there too much!


----------



## johncl (Mar 10, 2010)

fox said:


> Drill a hole in your supply and return just below the waterline and when power is off that will break siphon.
> 
> I would not rely on a check valve to keep our floor dry. Not saying they are a bad idea, just saying the system should work without them and only use them for piece of mind. I don't have need for them as they add restriction to the drain.


Don't you loose the siphon every time you do a water change?


----------



## duds (Apr 16, 2010)

johncl said:


> Don't you loose the siphon every time you do a water change?


If you do water changes from the sump you won't lose any volume from your tank


----------



## larry.beck (Jul 31, 2009)

duds said:


> johncl said:
> 
> 
> > Don't you loose the siphon every time you do a water change?
> ...


Wouldn't that assume that you only change out as much water as you can take from the sump before refilling?


----------



## duds (Apr 16, 2010)

larry.beck said:


> Wouldn't that assume that you only change out as much water as you can take from the sump before refilling?


Yup, that would be the assumption.


----------



## Broady247 (Aug 11, 2010)

Yes you will loose the siphon. That is the whole idea of the hole. (No pun intended)

You should never need a siphon or any check valves in a sump system (with a overflow) If you need them as far as I'm concerned you need to redesign you plumbing.

When you run a sump and the power goes off weather that is for a water change or power failure all your plumbing should be designed so that it will drain a minimal amount of water into the sump without overflowing it.

The hole markw is talking about is just below the waterline on the return. So when the water drops below this hole when the power goes off the siphon stops the sump will stop filling up. Were using a check valve... Which manually stops the flow returning to the sump the wrong way is just another point of failure. If your willing to risk it, do it. But just remember it wont fail when your infront of it. But let me assure you it will fail. Either when your on holidays or even worse when your wife is home and your not. I can hear the screaming over the phone now.

I was told a by a very experienced aquarist. The most important rule to do with sumps is the good old KISS principal. And also if you ever change anything in your plumbing, even the slightest little thing, make sure you always check your not going to flood the house when the power goes out.


----------



## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

markw said:


> Fox, you mention drilling a small hole just below the water line. Would it not leak at the hole? I understand the theory, but just not so sure about the practical portion. I'm running into all these problems because this will be the first big tank "upstairs" after many years of a big fish room in the basement. Never worried when things overflowed there too much!


Yes it leaks a bit under pressure if that is what you are asking similar to saying a spray bar leaks under pressure.

You put this hole just below the waterline and don't drill it so it is pointing at the glass or any other obstruction. With power on some water will spray out this hole similar to a spraybar. If power is to go off, as the water level drops this hole is exposed and you lose your siphon.

I would rethink your use of a checkvalve to keep the floor dry and have the system working correctly first. Then and only then consider using a checkvalve for piece of mind if you are having trouble sleeping at night.


----------



## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

johncl said:


> fox said:
> 
> 
> > Drill a hole in your supply and return just below the waterline and when power is off that will break siphon.
> ...


Thats the idea I guess I should have noted this advise was for a drilled tank, Thanx for pointing this out, I do not have experience with over the top HOB overflows as our tanks are drilled. I was speaking about drilling a hole in the durso standpipe and the return.

A HOB overflow box is another ball of wax and I should have noted this since as the waterlevel drops ib the DT the level drops in the HOB and your drain is designed to lose siphon in there not the over the top siphon


----------



## johncl (Mar 10, 2010)

duds said:


> johncl said:
> 
> 
> > Don't you loose the siphon every time you do a water change?
> ...


That's ok I guess if you have a huge sump but if it's like mine (30gal on a 125) your not doing a large enough water change besides the fact that if you have gravel your obviously not doing a gravel vac.

My 125 is not drilled I use an overflow box and I have a check valve on the return line to stop the back siphon into the sump when the power is off/out. It has been set up for three years now with no problems at all and I don't have to re-start the siphon every time I do a water change. When I do my weekly water changes the check valve is being utilized and has not failed yet I honestly don't see how it could it's a very simple mechanism not much to go wrong unless of course something where to get lodged in the line but that's remote. I also have a float shutoff inside the overflow box just in case that where to get clogged and obstruct the flow to the sump. Works for me.


----------



## badlad53 (Nov 3, 2010)

Lol... Quick everyone get rid off your check valves! Scary stuff! Been using mine for 12 years never any
problems. I test them a couple times a year just to be sure... I intend to use them on my new set up too. It is indeed a simple mechanism, but by all means if you can't understand them you should start shaking and run away now! 
Also lets not forget the 2 issues with relying on a little hole to stop your house from flooding...


----------



## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

Just cuz you been doin it this way for 30 years does'nt mean youz been doin it right for 30 years.

If you are relying onnna check valve to cover your poor plumbing techniques then by all means continue. Whatever rings yer bell.

Do it right the first time and you get it right from the start. Not knocking checkvalves but the fact is if you NEED one you are doing somethin wrong. By all means if you must go ahead use one. opcorn:


----------



## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

johncl said:


> I have a check valve on the return line to stop the back siphon into the sump when the power is off/out. It has been set up for three years now with no problems at all and I don't have to re-start the siphon every time I do a water change.


Umm ... you don't need to start a siphon on the return :roll: the pump forces water out it when you power back up :roll:

'just sayin


----------



## badlad53 (Nov 3, 2010)

How is it a FACT that if you need one you are doing something wrong? I NEED one because I don't want a pvc pipe going all the way to the top of my tank and back down again.

It is a FACT however that either method can fail. I have seen with my own eyes algae get sucked into that little hole you are so fond of and syphon is never lost when the pumps are off. I have seen people fail to tune it properly (make large enough) and it isn't able to loose syphon. Both of these equal total failure of the little hole. 
A check valve, if installed properly will never TOTALLY fail, at most it will let some water through slowly. That's why it should be tested occasionaly... and replaced as needed. 
Its good that the little hole was brought up because it is a viable option for some people and when done correctly and kept clean. It is not however THE correct way to do it. It too has been used for 30 years and its drawbacks have already been discovered.


----------



## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

If you are relying on a check valve then you are prolly also lax on maintenance. Hence your problem with algae reducing flow back thru the siphon break. Mebbe a 1/16" hole is too small and your trouble with clogs might have been solved going to a 1/4" siphon break.

Fact is if you are relying on a check valve to keep your floors dry you have a problem with your plumbing techniques. Correct them first and then use your check valve.

Similar to using a chute to stop your car, it'll work but if you need one you have a problem with your braking system. By all means have a chute if it helps you sleep at night but you should not be relying on it to stop your car thats what the brakes are for. This is where the poor maintenance comes in since if you let algae clog your siphon break you prolly don't change your pads when necessary. Then the chute comes in handy. I prefer a regular schedule.

But then I am silly that way :thumb:


----------



## badlad53 (Nov 3, 2010)

Lol I've never personally used the little hole. I've always had the bottoms of my tanks drilled for the return to keep everything obscure. Again, I don't want a pipe going to the top of the tank and back down again, so its never even been an option. 
I don't know of any check valves made specifically for aquaria. They are designed for all sorts of applications, and perform admirably any time they are installed properly. Even your municipal water supply uses them (especially in hilly areas) to help keep you safe. They don't use little holes drilled willy-nilly wherever spraying water because people wouldn't be happy about that. Check valves work very very well and I wouldn't think to stop using them.

On my aquarium maintenance personally... it is absolutely impeccable, most would say anal retentive, and I have a lot of old fish to show for that (lol only one gets to live in the house though!).

I will say it again. You are incorrect (=wrong) to state that a little hole is the only correct way to deal with this issue. Its not only an arrogant statement, but an ignorant one too, and only points to your inexperience with them.


----------



## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

Ever wonder why it's called a Siphon Break ? I am sure your tank is maintained to the nth degree just curious why you would overlook a little algae then?

Go ahead use the checkvalve and be sure that algae or whatever does not foul it as it could that little hole.


----------



## badlad53 (Nov 3, 2010)

Hahaha fox you should learn to pay attention when you read... where did I indicate I had overlooked a little algae? I said I've SEEN that happen. In my last post I also made it clear that I do not and never have used them on my tanks. With observational skills like yours I'm not surprised that you don't understand how a check valve works.
By the way... one of the first reported uses of a little hole in place of a check valve was on the new york aquariums new (at the time this was in the 60s) trout display. They were working on a very strict budget and in order to maximize other aspects of the display they went the cheap wherever they could. It was cheaper to install the extra pipe than the several check valves. Not long after, 2 (that I know of) articles were written in aquarium magazines explaining the technique in detail as a cheap alternative to the standard. That's right cheap! It has always been considered the cheap way to go until recently, much to my surprise... honestly it sounds funny to hear someone say that this is the BEST option. To finish the history lesson... that display was dismantled and removed from the newyork aquarium sometime in the early 70s because of maintenance issues. Can you guess what these issues were? Bet everyone but fox can!

And final thing before I move on... for anyone so distrustful of one way check valves: ya better remove your toilet and hot water heater... your little hole won't work in these applications... better be safe! On second thought maybe you better burn your house down... you have one check valve that prevents your cruddy water from entering the municiple supply (so does your neighbour... I hope) and another on your sewer line to prevent your neighbours poop from bubbling up into your bathtub... funny that you are worried about the check valve preventing a few hundred gallons from soaking your floor (aquarium) but not the one preventing an almost endless supply (toilet) from doing the same thing... all it would take is one little clog...

Hahaha good luck y'all, and if I have any advice to offer its this:

OPEN YOUR EYES!


----------



## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

Umm in case you didn't get the memo, ... moving parts fail. My hot water heater does not use a siphon break :roll: funny that your does. Seems this is no longer a discussion. BTW last I checked our john has no siphon break either. :roll:

A lot easier to clear a "little hole" than to maintain a CV. opcorn:

:thumb: 
fox out


----------



## Tshethar (Jul 20, 2009)

To the OP, I would go for redundancy if it were my setup. 220 gallons is a lot of water. While the power shouldn't be off too frequently, I'd do whatever I could to avoid the worst case scenario.

When I was in my early 20s I set up a 90 gallon tank for my parents with the return line submerged to some degree--I can't even remember how deep in the tank it went; I'm thinking it was only a few inches or so for a home-made spray bar--but anyway, I used a pump (that I shouldn't have) that was more of a bilge pump/crawl space kind of a thing that included an integrated check value. (Maybe a different design from what's been suggested, not maintained, etc., but you know where this is going...) Sure enough, it failed one day with me long gone and far away and my folks either asleep, not home, or not paying attention.   

I don't know what their homeowner's deductible was, or what, if anything, happened to their rates, but... at least they liked the ceramic tile they put down better than the old wall-to-wall carpet...  :roll: 

Older I get the more I appreciate what they put up with! 

And I definitely wouldn't want to find out what my wife thought about my 120 draining onto our living room floor... :x

So, I personally would go with both of the things suggested, and maybe search old threads if nobody else chimes in to see if anyone has any intriguing variations on these ideas. :thumb:


----------



## johncl (Mar 10, 2010)

Don't understand why using a check valve alone is so unequivocally wrong. Seems to me it's just another method to accomplish the same thing and a personal choice. Redundancy is always a good thing but I feel my system works fine so there is really no need to "fix it if it ain't broken". If I had known that my one little question would have sparked such a spirited discussion I would never have asked it and I apologize to any one here for causing such a ruckus.


----------



## badlad53 (Nov 3, 2010)

I don't think there's anything to be sorry for discussion is good...
I first read about "someone said they knew someone who's check valve failed" on another forum. It is a popular idea...
Redundancy is good too if you are able to... for me at least it defeats the purpose of having holes in the bottom of my tank. Id have to plumb all the way to the top of my tank and back down again. Seems a bit silly.
Also remember that a properly installed check valve will NEVER totally fail. At most, as time goes on, it could wear to a point that a small quantity of water is allowed to pass through. Its easy to check though by simply turning everything off and noting how much the water rises in your sump. Preferably wait 30 minutes or so...
I've never had one fail, I've never had to clean one, even with 12 years of continual use. And years and years before that... I've never had the one in my toilet fail either (yes you do have a check valve, not a "syphon break" in your toilet, its just happens to be called a flush valve or flapper valve in this application. You use it every time you flush... its identical to, just bigger than, the ones most of us put on our tanks. And yes you do have a check valve, not syphon break on your hot water heater, and its purpose is even similar to what some of you are trying to prevent on your tanks... but its THERMAL syphon. Makes it cheaper for you to have hot water)


----------



## johncl (Mar 10, 2010)

Well I'm going to stick with my check valve even if it's wrong. :lol: Basically mine gets checked every week when I do a water change. I shut down all the filters and the pump in my wet/dry then I empty the wet/dry with my Python. Then I do a gravel vac which takes about thirty minutes and in that time I have never seen any water seep back into the wet/dry. Been doing it this way for 3 years + now with no problems and have a very healthy happy 1 1/2 year old 12" Oscar in the tank.

markw Didn't mean to hijack your thread. Would love to hear what you decided to do and how it worked out for you?


----------



## badlad53 (Nov 3, 2010)

Hey all yes me again...
And I'm sorry I do hate to beat a dead horse but I realized there are a couple of myths or misunderstandings floating around through a pm and in another forum, and I feel its important for folks to understand "the truth"

So number 1:
A check valve is not the same thing as a syphon break. It can be used to block syphon but it does not "break" syphon.
To better understand this, go take the lid off your toilet tank and flush it while looking inside. That little plastic and rubber disc you just moved, and fell back down again, is one type of check valve and happens to be the type most commonly used on aquariums. Its not doing anything to prevent syphon, its literaly clogging the hole that otherwise allows water to flow into your toilet bowl when you choose to allow it.

Number 2:
Using that same example, raise your hand if you've ever had to clean or otherwise maintain that little disc. Look no hands! I'm not saying its a bad idea to clean it, its just generally not required for it to work well for years and years.
Folks keep telling other folks how important it is to clean algae out of your check valve. In reality though algae won't grow in it because there is no light! I know there are some phytoplanktons that grow without light, but you won't normally find these in an aquarium where they are out-competed by "normal" algae. You don't find them in your toilet tank either.
The possible exception to this is a check vavlve I've seen that is actually semi-transparent. Though I have no experience with this type, I think it would be a good idea to avoid them. Perhaps an even better reason to avoid them though is that the ones I just looked at are about 3x the price of a normal pvc check valve.

Again, I'm sorry if it appears I haven't dropped it yet. (I guess I haven't!) But I do want to help dispell some of the myths.

As for the syphon break: its not a BAD idea for folks who have a setup that allows it to be used. Just don't get the idea that it is somehow fool-proof. They can and do fail either because the designer didn't know what they were doing or lack of proper maintenance. They do indeed require cleaning!


----------



## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

You know, sometimes it just gets me real PO`ed when the wisdom of how I do a thing dosen`t just become so obvious, that all other ways get swept away with a chorus of catcalls.
The only WRONG method of stopping your sump from flooding is the one that dosen`t work.
The only way you will know your method works is to test it often.
Well, other than hiring that homeless guy to stick his finger in the pipe when the power goes out.
Mine got undependable, having food and a roof went to his head.


----------



## johncl (Mar 10, 2010)

KaiserSousay said:


> The only WRONG method of stopping your sump from flooding is the one that dosen`t work. The only way you will know your method works is to test it often.


 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


----------



## markw (Feb 20, 2004)

Well, my "stupid question" sure got a good debate going if nothing else. Sure are a lot of varied and committed opinions on this. I guess what I take from all of it is that even though I have the check valve installed already, it probably isn't such a bad idea to drill a small hole in the return line as added insurance. With 220 gallons sitting in a living room, it almost seems not if its going to leak, but when and how. Thanks for all the suggestions!


----------



## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Check valves, siphon breaks, etc.. really aren't the point.

If you return and release the water at the surface & ONLY at the surface, NONE of these other continencies are needed AT ALL.

Power shuts off, water drains down below the overflow threshold and everything stops, that is it - THE END. No siphon to even be concerned with because the water level has dropped down below the bottom of the return line. No potential for a siphon.

This is the simplest and most fool proof way to return water to an aquarium from a sump. Period.

Take this from a guy who has been burned by siphon breaks & check valves on more than one occasion. It can & will happen eventually. Murphy's Law will prevail.


----------



## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Markw..

If you don't want to completely redo your plumbing - there is another way to accomplish what I said above.

I am assuming the return line is vinyl hose...

Put a barbed T in the line - run a short piece if hose then put an L on the end of it. Run a line off the L close to the surface. Put a barbed plug in the end of that line. Before placing the plug dill a small (3/16") hole in the plug. Make sure when you are done that the plugged line is ABOVE the water's surface.

This is as effective of a siphon break that can be created & in essence has created a return at the surface without a siphon potential.

When doing routine maintenance, inpect the hole for debris, etc.. Using the fuzzy pipe cleaners to clear the hole periodically would definitely work. Just one more step in the weekly routine.

Just sayin man.. Been there - done that. NOT fun.


----------



## markw (Feb 20, 2004)

cantrell00 said:


> Markw..
> 
> If you don't want to completely redo your plumbing - there is another way to accomplish what I said above.
> 
> ...


Seems like a good option. I already have all 4 return lines all buried into the background I built. THey are all well below the water line so I am now relying on the check valve. I'll look into your idea and give it a try. Like you say... it's not a matter if...
Thanks


----------



## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Sure...

Yeah - Ideally, one would have it so neither a check or a siphon break are needed.

That being said, not everything can be "ideal".

In less than ideal, you choose redundancy (check AND siphon break) & absolutely check routinely. Test & test again. Just know that it is possible to drain the tank in the event of a power outage.

The likelihood (or unlikelihood) of eventual failure is proportional to your diligence in preventing it.

Carry on...


----------



## iwade4fish (Jan 5, 2009)

100gallon w/standard 2x1x1 wet/dry. HOB overflow. 1"pvc all around. I use the little hole technique. It works; yes, I have to re-start the siphon. No, I don't have 100 gallons on the floor. But it would only drain 20 or so, because my spraybar is at the *top* of the tank. It only drains to the lowest portion of your plumbing *inside* the tank. The height of your durso controls that.
There are 1000's of ways to plumb a tank, and only one way is correct.
Mine. :lol:


----------

