# Advice setting up a 600gal Tanga comm



## illumnae (6 mo ago)

I've been keeping South American cichlids for over 15 years, and have been very used to keeping my water as soft as possible with very low pH. Recently, I have been thinking of keeping Tanganyikan cichlids instead, and would like to set up my 600 gallon (7' x 3' x 4') tank for this. The tank has a remote 125 gallon sump with about 20 gallons of Sera Siporax filter media, and 2x Abyzz A200 run at 60% as return pumps. I have a 24/7 constant water change system that changes 3-5% (25-30 gallons) of ro water daily. This system worked out well for my South American setup as doing water changes with ro water was needed to keep tds and pH low, but it would pose a problem for a Tanganyikan tank since that would constantly dilute the water and change the parameters over time. 

If I would like to keep my awc system as it is, would I still be able to keep Tanganyikan cichlids, perhaps by daily dosing kH and gH buffers daily/hourly into the tank to maintain water parameters? E.g. Can I premix the diy rift buffer or Seachem cichlid salt into a liquid form to dose daily/hourly together with a separate dosing pump for kH? If not, can I instead mix up separate solutions of Mg, kH, and K or Na to dose separately with rift lake trace solution (e.g. from Seachem)? I intend to use aragonite sand so that would help buffer the kH and calcium levels as well. Alternatively, could I run a reef style calcium reactor to supplement the dosing?

I would also do a large 50% water change monthly with the rift buffer to reset parameters similar to how planted tank hobbyists do it with EI dosing method.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

Wow, that sounds like an awesome system. 

I’ve never used r/o before so my advice might not be right, but if you have fairly hard water from the tap, could you use that instead of the r/o water, and incorporate that into your system instead?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

I think all the options you posted are reasonable, it's just a question of how you want to go about doing this. And the aragonite substrate will certainly help buffer the system to appropriate levels. But why fuss with RO water rather than tap if your goal is hard, alkaline water?

That said, another important variable is what sorts of Tanganyikans you plan on keeping. The more commonly kept genera (_Lamprologus, Neolamprologus, Julidochromis, Altolamprologus, etc._) will be fine in dealing with small changes in water chemistry that occur gradually, but you might have to be more careful with sensitive fishes like _Opthalmotilapia, Xenotilapia_, and other featherfins. Bigger fishes (_e. g. Cyphotilapia_) will get you into waste/nitrogen cycle issues not unlike those posed by Neotropicals, so at this point the big question is which fishes you plan on keeping.

Good luck; it sounds like an awesome setup.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

marten said:


> Wow, that sounds like an awesome system.
> 
> I’ve never used r/o before so my advice might not be right, but if you have fairly hard water from the tap, could you use that instead of the r/o water, and incorporate that into your system instead?
> 
> ...





sir_keith said:


> I think all the options you posted are reasonable, it's just a question of how you want to go about doing this. And the aragonite substrate will certainly help buffer the system to appropriate levels. But why fuss with RO water rather than tap if your goal is hard, alkaline water?
> 
> That said, another important variable is what sorts of Tanganyikans you plan on keeping. The more commonly kept genera (_Lamprologus, Neolamprologus, Julidochromis, Altolamprologus, etc._) will be fine in dealing with small changes in water chemistry that occur gradually, but you might have to be more careful with sensitive fishes like _Opthalmotilapia, Xenotilapia_, and other featherfins. Bigger fishes (_e. g. Cyphotilapia_) will get you into waste/nitrogen cycle issues not unlike those posed by Neotropicals, so at this point the big question is which fishes you plan on keeping.
> 
> Good luck; it sounds like an awesome setup.


Thank you for your responses! My tap water is actually also on the soft side. I used ro water due to my previous blackwater inhabitants requiring the super low tds and pH water (for reference, they were doing well in water with pH slightly under 4.0). Due to non-forward thinking when I set up my tank and awc system, I cannot easily change the system and so I need to work around the limitations.

I read the article on salt, and I was thinking that if I dose the various macro elements (kH, Magnesium, Potassium) hourly using a dosing pump, and trace elements daily based on the ppm from that article, I wouldn't have too much issues with parameter instability? Or would that be insufficient? With 3-5% daily wc (so 20-35% weekly) and a monthly 50% wc on top of my already large filtration would I still run into nitrogen/waste issues?

I do hope to be able to keep the more exotic species. I will need more advice on stocking once the basic setup and water issues have been solved, but I am hoping to keep Cyprichromis (almost compulsory given that my tank is 4' tall so I need lots of activity in the mid and upper levels of the tank), Altolamprologus, Julidochromis, sandsifters (Xenotilapia/Enantiopius) and featherfins in a community setup.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

I took values from this article: Aquarium Salts

Based on the Lake Tanganyika values, the macro nutrients I need are:
HCO3 + CO3 = 6.02-6.81 meq/L = 301.5-341ppm
Na = 57-63.6ppm
Ca = 9.2-17.6ppm
K = 18-35.5ppm
Mg = 39.2-43.3 ppm

Assuming I change 25 gallons of water a day, the following mixture doses will yield in 25g of water:

380g of NaHCO3 mixed in 5L of water, dosed at 600ml/day will give 300ppm of HCO3 and 113.06ppm of Na
2kg of MgCl mixed in 5L of water, dosed at 40ml/day will give 40.84ppm of Mg
1.2kg of KCl mixed in 5L of water, dosed at 20ml/day will give 25.17ppm of K

If I dose the above together with Seachem Cichlid Trace daily, would it be sufficient to keep water parameters stable day to day, with a 50% monthly water change using actual reef buffer to normalize any parameter drift?

Also, given that my coral sand will buffer the kH, should I dose less NaHCO3?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

When I wanted to keep featherfins in a 72" tank I was told to give them the whole bottom.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Sounds like you are on top of the chemistry for this. As mentioned by @sir_keith , stability in your water chemistry will be key. Esp. with the more sensitive Tanganyikan Cichlid species you are interested in keeping.
I can only offer a few things for you to consider. Though I'm sure with a system built out as technical as this one will be, there will be some additional aspects to consider and plan for.

Dual water pre-treatment reservoirs. Recommend both reservoirs at 225 to 250 gallons in capacity. Having one in active 'dispenser mode' (25 gallons daily?), while the second reservoir is filling with RO and getting prepared with the dosing recipe for use, makes sense. A system like that could also offer some system redundancy in case of unexpected problems.
A third water reservoir. This one at 350 gallon capacity, would be reserved for your monthly, 50% water changes.
Make up/evaporation loss water. In these larger capacity aquariums, pure RO water is typically added daily to the system to make up for water evaporation loss. Amounts (in gallons) will vary depending on daily, water evaporation loss rate. That daily make up amount of pure RO water should be accounted for, to maintain water chemistry stability in the system.
Otherwise, this looks like it will be a really nice system once set up and placed in operation. Will require a bit more planning and 'tech' than its previous incarnation, as a Black Water (New World) aquarium system. But the results of the effort, should be worth it.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Can't wait to see pics of this setup. I would also employ aragonite sand (real Bahama aragonite) & lots of Texas Holey Rock to help buffer this tank.


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

DJRansome said:


> When I wanted to keep featherfins in a 72" tank I was told to give them the whole bottom.


Well sure, they'd love that, but it is not necessary, especially in a large tank. _Ophthalmotilapia_ will coexist quite happily with _Xenotilapia_; large _Cyathopharynx_ may be more problematic.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Auballagh said:


> Sounds like you are on top of the chemistry for this. As mentioned by @sir_keith , stability in your water chemistry will be key. Esp. with the more sensitive Tanganyikan Cichlid species you are interested in keeping.
> I can only offer a few things for you to consider. Though I'm sure with a system built out as technical as this one will be, there will be some additional aspects to consider and plan for.
> 
> Dual water pre-treatment reservoirs. Recommend both reservoirs at 225 to 250 gallons in capacity. Having one in active 'dispenser mode' (25 gallons daily?), while the second reservoir is filling with RO and getting prepared with the dosing recipe for use, makes sense. A system like that could also offer some system redundancy in case of unexpected problems.
> ...


I wish I had the space for this redundancy! Unfortunately I only have space for the current 100 gallon water reservoir that's being kept topped up constantly with ro water. My awc peristaltic pump fills the tank from this reservoir 24/7 at a rate of 90ml/minute, and I currently use a 200gpd (about 527ml/minute) ro machine to keep the reservoir always topped up. I have a 400gpd ro machine too that I purchased for the system but have not yet installed. In this way, the reservoir will always have enough water for the awc since the ro water is always being replaced at a rate more than 5x the rate of the awc. I also draw evaporation top up water from this barrel, with my auto top off being programmed to only trigger every 6 hours so there's also no chance that the auto top off will ever drain the barrel empty (I have redundancy built into my auto top off both via a separate float switch and programming). I have a separate breeding rack for South American dwarf cichlids and I do water changes for the tanks on that rack from this reservoir too, but the volume of water changed never brings the reservoir below 1/3 volume. The 50% monthly water changes I intend to do with dechlorinated tap water as I don't have enough reservoir space for 300 gallons - but my tap water is only slightly different from ro water (70 tds, negligible kH and gH below 3). If absolutely needed I'll run the water through di resin for the water change.

That's the best I can do for redundancy planning to keep the tank on "auto" mode with regards to the water. But this is also why I need to dose the replenishment buffer directly into the tank instead of preparing suitable wc water beforehand for direct water changes. It's unfortunately the only constraint I have to keeping Tanganyikan cichlids, but it's a big constraint. 

Based on all your responses so far though, it seems that dosing directly into the tank to replenish the minerals lost from an ro water wc will be ok? My thought is that since only 90ml/minute of water is being changed, and I can dose the minerals back in hourly, the amount of fluctuation in water parameters would be very minimal. Add to that the monthly 50% manual wc to reset parameters in case they drift, things should be ok?

Prior to this post, I've never even had to do any manual water changes and I've maintained sensitive blackwater cichlids in this tank for 2 years (altum angels, panda uaru, multispinosa pikes). I figure that with the additional 50% monthly water changes, the water should be good enough for even the sensitive Tanganyikan cichlids too?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

sir_keith said:


> Well sure, they'd love that, but it is not necessary, especially in a large tank. _Ophthalmotilapia_ will coexist quite happily with _Xenotilapia_; large _Cyathopharynx_ may be more problematic.


I would want the Cyathopharynx, LOL. But at the time I was asking about Opthalmotilapia along with fish like calvus and julidochromis. What say you?


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Be careful. The water chemistry of a Tanganyikan Lake aquarium approaches the level of a full marine/salt water aquarium. Black Water themed tanks are much more forgiving in maintenance and water chemistry management. Kept acidic in PH, with very soft water and consistently clean, the dissolved organics are nowhere near as toxic to the fish in a Black Water tank, because the PH is kept so low.
-
And no - I am NOT a fan of mixing water chemistry additives directly in the tank of a Tanganyikan themed aquarium. To avoid any water chemistry swings in hardness or PH, the water is almost always carefully pre-mixed first in a separate reservoir, prior to addition into the aquarium (For my own 33 gallon 'long' tank, I utilized a plastic, 44 gallon Rubber Maid trash can for the chore with a Model 7 Mag Drive submersible pump/vinyl hose to transfer the pre-mixed water over). You are going to be assuming quite a bit of risk with just the single 100 gallon reservoir available to support this tank.
Certainly more risk than I would be personally be comfortable with.


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

DJRansome said:


> I would want the Cyathopharynx, LOL. But at the time I was asking about Opthalmotilapia along with fish like calvus and julidochromis. What say you?


I've never tried those combinations, as I mostly keep sand dwellers with sand dwellers, _etc._ That said, I think that might work if the tank was set up properly.


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

Auballagh said:


> ...I am NOT a fan of mixing water chemistry additives directly in the tank of a Tanganyikan themed aquarium. To avoid any water chemistry swings in hardness or PH, the water is almost always carefully pre-mixed first in a separate reservoir, prior to addition into the aquarium...


Well, that's the conventional wisdom, and for sure it is the best and safest way to go. That said, I don't pre-mix my water changes because I just don't have the facilities to fuss with ~1000 gallons of water. Four-plus decades of keeping Tanganyikans, and it still works for me.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Auballagh said:


> Be careful. The water chemistry of a Tanganyikan Lake aquarium approaches the level of a full marine/salt water aquarium. Black Water themed tanks are much more forgiving in maintenance and water chemistry management. Kept acidic in PH, with very soft water and consistently clean, the dissolved organics are nowhere near as toxic to the fish in a Black Water tank, because the PH is kept so low.
> -
> And no - I am NOT a fan of mixing water chemistry additives directly in the tank of a Tanganyikan themed aquarium. To avoid any water chemistry swings in hardness or PH, the water is almost always carefully pre-mixed first in a separate reservoir, prior to addition into the aquarium (For my own 33 gallon 'long' tank, I utilized a plastic, 44 gallon Rubber Maid trash can for the chore with a Model 7 Mag Drive submersible pump/vinyl hose to transfer the pre-mixed water over). You are going to be assuming quite a bit of risk with just the single 100 gallon reservoir available to support this tank.
> Certainly more risk than I would be personally be comfortable with.


I can understand the concern for perfect parameters always and in an ideal world I would definitely do as you advised. I have kept sps reef tanks for several years which are super demanding on parameters being stable. Here's my 180 gallon reef before i decommissioned it to move to a new place where I set up my current 600 gallon tank:










In fact, I got the idea to dose macro nutrients directly into the tank from my reefing days. When keeping sps, there is significant depletion of calcium, magnesium, kH and trace elements from the coral growth. Kind of similar to what is being depleted from my ro water changes in a Tanganyikan tank. Reef hobbyists dose back what is being consumed via calcium reactors and dosing pumps to keep parameters stable as water changes cannot keep up with the depletion. I thought that since the reefers do this dosing method for almost exactly the same macro nutrients and the sensitive sps thrive, Tanganyikan fish should be similarly comfortable?

I also hear of many hobbyists who do water changes by draining the tank, filling it with tap water and simply dumping the buffer into the tank while filling and letting it dissolve via the flow from the filling water. Doesn't that create much more parameter instability on a weekly basis?

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your advice and again I would definitely follow it in an ideal world, but just throwing it out there that this might also be possible when I'm facing the constraints that I have outlined above?



sir_keith said:


> Well, that's the conventional wisdom, and for sure it is the best and safest way to go. That said, I don't pre-mix my water changes because I just don't have the facilities to fuss with ~1000 gallons of water. Four-plus decades of keeping Tanganyikans, and it still works for me.


Do you do nutrients dosing in a similar manner to what I'm attempting?


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

The tank waiting for confirmation that it can be filled:


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

illumnae said:


> ...Do you do nutrients dosing in a similar manner to what I'm attempting?...


No, because the parameters don't change that much between water changes. But I'm not running a constant flow system.

Difficult to make out, but are you writing from Singapore? My partner spent most of her childhood there. 🦀


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

sir_keith said:


> No, because the parameters don't change that much between water changes. But I'm not running a constant flow system.
> 
> Difficult to make out, but are you writing from Singapore? My partner spent most of her childhood there. 🦀


Oh wow small world! Indeed I am from Singapore, how did you tell?

When you mentioned you don't premix your water changes, did you mean you just fill the tank and put the buffer into the tank directly?


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

illumnae said:


> Oh wow small world! Indeed I am from Singapore, how did you tell?
> 
> When you mentioned you don't premix your water changes, did you mean you just fill the tank and put the buffer into the tank directly?


I recognized the flag under your name. I sometimes fly the Singapore flag on my boat when my partner is aboard, and we enjoy Singapore Chili Crab (made with local Dungeness) often in Summer.

Yes, I'm probably going to get some grief for this here, but when I'm changing water, I just add the buffer/salts in small aliquots as the tank is filling, say about 10 gallons-worth at a time. Sometimes I add pre-dissolved concentrates, but the solid reagents are so soluble that they can be added directly, in which case I sprinkle them over the water surface. And with all the agitation from the incoming stream of water, mixing takes place very rapidly. I do think the sensitivity of Tanganyikan fishes is oft overstated.

Good luck with your project; the tank looks amazing, and I hope you'll post pics once it's up and running.


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## Riptide (6 mo ago)

I don't have much advice to offer but man I would like to see some photos once this thing is all done.


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## Aussieman57 (Dec 18, 2021)

Riptide said:


> I don't have much advice to offer but man I would like to see some photos once this thing is all done.


Me too.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Thank you everyone for your interest, I am definitely excited too, but I want to make sure I am fully prepared before taking the plunge. However, I couldn't resist ordering a few Altolamprologus compressiceps "Mandarin" just to see how they look like as Google images showed them to look really awesome. I'll set up a temporary 30 gallon tank for them on my breeding rack till the tank is ready and cycled.

In the meantime, I have some questions regarding the Rift Lake buffer recipe in the Library:
1. Under the previous article I linked, it stated that the Magnesium levels in Lake Tanganyika are at 40ppm. However using the recipe of 1 tablespoon of Epsom salts per 5 gallons of water, it gives 80ppm, which is double the natural level. Anyone know why this is?
2. Similarly, the level of carbonates in Lake Tanganyika is about 300ppm, but dosing 1 teaspoon of bicarbonate of soda in 5 gallons of water only gives 173ppm of carbonate.
3. The recipe calls for 1 tablespoon of Epsom salts, 1 teaspoon of sodium bicarbonate and 1 teaspoon of marine salt per 5 gallons of water. However in my research on this forum, I see a number of people instead use 1 tablespoon of Epsom salts, 1 tablespoon of sodium bicarbonate and 1 teaspoon of marine salt instead, which is 3x the amount of sodium bicarbonate. Which is the correct recipe to use?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Your water may have some levels of these minerals already. You don't have to match Lake Tang exactly...the amounts probably vary from location to location in any case. But feel free to customize your amounts based on your water.

I only use baking soda (almost never), but I have not kept the more discriminating Tangs.


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

I believe the linked 'recipe' is for a generic 'Rift Lake Buffer' that does not reflect the unique water chemistry of Lake Tanganyika.


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

DJRansome said:


> ...Your water may have some levels of these minerals already...


Not when you're starting with RO water...


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Thanks everyone for the advice thus far! After the past days of research, this is what I intend to do:
1. Set up tank using Seachem Cichlid Lake Salt (11g per 10 gallons) + sodium bicarbonate to kh 15
2. Daily awc with ro water of 30 gallons, with daily dosing of Magnesium 40ppm, sodium bicarbonate to kh 15 and marine salt 6tsp (emulating diy rift lake buffer recipe)
3. Monthly manual wc of 50% using Seachem Cichlid Lake Salt (11g per 10 gallons) + sodium bicarbonate to kh 15

The above should give me fairly good and consistent parameters for the tank?

Next questions I have (sorry I'm really very new to this):
1. If I'm already dosing sodium bicarbonate to raise kh to 15, do I still need to use coral sand? Seems redundant as coral sand buffers the water to lower than kh 15 anyway. Can i use normal river sand?
2. For the best viewing experience, should I use bluer spectrum marine lights instead of yellowish freshwater lights?


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

Sounds like a great plan. On to the questions-

(1) You'll get different opinions here (ask me how I know), but yes, coral sand will help buffer (_i. e._ resist changes) your parameters between water changes. Personally, I use Aragonite substrate in _all_ my tanks, which greatly increases their stability between water changes (I also use Seachem Cichlid Lake Salt and Tanganyika Buffer). Since you are doing _daily_ dosing with bicarbonate, this may not be necessary, but the only argument I can see for _not_ using Aragonite is that it's relatively expensive. I very much doubt that's an issue here.

(2) This is totally a matter of personal taste; I greatly prefer blue-ish illumination like marine tanks over the typical yellowish freshwater lights.

Good luck!








​


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Thank you once again for sharing your experiences! Your tanks look great! I was thinking of going with river sand as a failsafe option in case my Tanga journey fails and I can switch back to SA without changing out the sand again (as you can imagine it's not easy in a 4ft high tank). But I think I'll just take the plunge! Worst case scenario I'll just keep a school of farmbred frontosa longterm instead. I intend to order Caribsea special grade aragonite sand - it's meant for marine use but should work right? Should I get a coarser or finer grade instead? 

I am currently hanging 3x Aquaillumination Prime16 HD Freshwater lights over the tank and I find them really yellow. They are good for bringing out reds, but Tanganyika fish are mostly blue and yellow right? I am thinking of switching to reef lights instead and running them on the lower end of that spectrum, maybe about 16000K. I could switch to identical lights as I'm using now but the marine version, or perhaps try something like Kessil Tuna Blue

Exciting news, my LFS just had a Tanganyikan shipment today and they have some Cyprichromis leptosoma jumbo tricolor mpimbwe and Altolamprologus compressiceps gold head kasanga. Thinking of asking them to reserve a few and hold them for me for a couple of weeks till the tank is cycled.

Anyone have stocking recommendations for me? I'm assuming I need alot of Cyprichromis to fill the upper and middle layers of the tank since my tank is so tall?

Also, is it OK to mix variants of the same species? E.g. different colour variants of Cyprichromis, or 2-3 variants of Altolamprologus?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Do not mix species. The different color variants are specified by collection point. They have evolved separately so it is better for the hobby if you keep them separate, retaining the ability to sell the fish with the full genus/species/collection point name. 

Also don't mix comps/calvus, etc. You don't want crossbreeding.

I will let sir_keith advise on numbers. 

Regarding substrate and buffering...I use pool filter sand as substrate and put crushed coral as part of the media in my filters. My tap water starts off with the right parameters for the fish and I have a well so no chloramines/chlorine. I do have some tanks with aragonite substrate from my initial set-up in 2005...I see no difference among the different tanks.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

DJRansome said:


> Do not mix species. The different color variants are specified by collection point. They have evolved separately so it is better for the hobby if you keep them separate, retaining the ability to sell the fish with the full genus/species/collection point name.
> 
> Also don't mix comps/calvus, etc. You don't want crossbreeding.
> 
> ...


That's what I thought, but my LFS also reminded me that I'm never going to be fishing any of the fry from my tank to sell, and the Tanga community in my country is super small, so as far as the hobby goes, whatever goes into my tank dies in my tank, so to speak. They thus advised me to go for maximum visual impact as that's the point of my tank - a showpiece (They're not saying this just to make a sale, I've known these guys for over a decade and they're trustworthy). So if I'm not going to be breeding and selling, would it change your opinion?


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

I answered this question yesterday in a different thread (75 Gallon Tropheus Setup), so I'm just going to plagiarize myself, below-

_HistPhil13 said:__ ...Thoughts on mixing color variants if I go the colony route?... 

"Bad idea. Very bad idea. They are not 'color variants,' they are geographically and genetically distinct populations that for the time being are grouped together as a single species. Irrespective of the taxonomy, hybridization between the different forms compromises their genetic integrity, and ultimately results in the loss of the distinct parental forms. This has been an issue with Tropheus for many years, for example, but so far serious hobbyists have been able to avoid genetic homogenization, the few man-made, 'line bred' strains (Kiriza Gold, Red Bishop, etc.) notwithstanding. Buy pure specimens from a reputable source, and avoid any sort of hybridization."_

I had thought about the fact that you are unlikely to be raising and distributing fry from this setup, but that really doesn't change my opinion: I don't think we should be hybridizing natural populations. Here are my biases going into this highly personal view- (1) The first concern is scientific/philosophical. I am a geneticist, and have a high regard for the integrity of biological species (and populations) and their genetic heritage. I would never do anything to compromise that, irrespective of the ultimate fate of the hybrid progeny. (2) The second concern is aesthetic. I do not believe that 'maximum visual impact' is necessarily achieved by having a potpourri of fishes. Is a mixed colony of _Cyprichromis leptostoma_ Utinta and _C. leptostoma_ Mpimbwe more attractive than each colony individually? I don't think so, as pure colonies of each population are striking in and of themselves. Obviously, this is a highly personal view, but when I think back on all the really impessive tanks I've seen over the years, most of them had a limited number of species.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

It does not change my opinion either. How do you know you will never want/need to sell your adult fish or fry? Life happens. What if your tank ends up being overpopulated, will you just keep adding tanks to house the overflow for their lifetimes?

The wonder of these tanks for me is that I can view a slice of the lake.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Thank you for your views. I went down to the LFS today and didn't really like the look of the gold head kasangas, so i will probably hold out for Mandarins in the next shipment. I did manage to reserve 6 pieces of Synodontis granulosa though, so they'll be going in once the tank is set up and cycled properly. 

Any advice on other fish to stock the tank with, and numbers of each species?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Are you going with a colony of altos? And cyps? Looking for things to go with them? I would skip any shellies with the Synodontis.

What is the collection point of the Mandarin? Kilima?

Ideally add all the fish at once so that your beneficial bacteria level achieved by your cycle is fully supported by fish right away. This way you can avoid the need to quarantine new additions for 3 weeks every time you add a group, and then the waiting/testing to ensure the increased bioload does not generate more ammonia than the beneficial bacteria can handle.


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

In such a large tank, once established, my ultimate goal would be some of the larger, holy grail Tanganyikans that require a great deal of space, notably _Cyathopharynx..._








​...and Benthochromis...








​But these are sensitive and demanding fishes, and even with all your experience with reef tanks _etc._, it's probably best that you start out more gradually with Tanganyikans. That doesn't mean you can't have some stunning fishes. For sure, _Cyprichromis_, and if you can find them, a large (20+) school of _Cyprichromis sp. 'leptostoma jumbo'_ Tri Color Black Bee would be stunning...








​There are so many options for the sand floor that it 's difficult to suggest anything in particular without knowing what your leanings are. So many choices!


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

DJRansome said:


> Are you going with a colony of altos? And cyps? Looking for things to go with them? I would skip any shellies with the Synodontis.
> 
> What is the collection point of the Mandarin? Kilima?
> 
> Ideally add all the fish at once so that your beneficial bacteria level achieved by your cycle is fully supported by fish right away. This way you can avoid the need to quarantine new additions for 3 weeks every time you add a group, and then the waiting/testing to ensure the increased bioload does not generate more ammonia than the beneficial bacteria can handle.


I definitely want the Altolamprologus compressiceps Mandarin. The stockist doesn't state the collection point, but Google shows Kilima. I also want a group of more vibrant cyprichromis to catch the eye in the upper and mid regions of the tank, and other midwater dwellers if possible as well. I need more life in the upper and mid levels as the tank is tall. The Cyprichromis leptosoma jumbo tricolor Mpimbwe are pretty, but they seem more pastel and not really vibrant. I saw a picture of a Cyprichromis leptosoma Utinta that looked really good, but I'm open to suggestions. I also am very attracted to the pretty dorsal fins of the sandsifters, and I've also seen some pictures of blue Julidochromis dickfeldi that are really pretty.

I don't think I'll be able to stock everything in at once, as I will only be able to order what I want once a month, and the chances of the stocklist having everything I want at the same time is really low.




sir_keith said:


> In such a large tank, once established, my ultimate goal would be some of the larger, holy grail Tanganyikans that require a great deal of space, notably _Cyathopharynx..._
> 
> View attachment 143391
> ​...and Benthochromis...
> ...


Wow those first 2 pictures you posted are amazing. I don't mind working up my way to them over time, but I would really love to have both species in my tank eventually! Can you share more about them please?

For the Cyprichromis, are they the same as the Cyprichromis leptosoma jumbo tricolor Mpimbwe I mentioned above? They look really similar but the ones at my lfs have a neon blue edge on their dorsal and anal fins. 

Based on what I've mentioned above do you have any other suggestions for me?


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Sorry another question - what grade sand should I be looking at? More specifically, I'm thinking of adding Caribsea Arag-alive sand (so I don't have to wash it), and am deciding which version I should be using - Special Grade or Fiji Pink? Bahamas Oolite looks too fine and seems like it will compact over time.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

People who have used the alive aragonite have reported a cloudy tank for an extended period. I use PFS, which I still wash. sir_keith may have a recommendation on both the aragonite and the foai...which I was told would need the whole bottom...no calvus, no synodontis.


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

illumnae said:


> ...
> Wow those first 2 pictures you posted are amazing. I don't mind working up my way to them over time, but I would really love to have both species in my tank eventually! Can you share more about them please?
> 
> For the Cyprichromis, are they the same as the Cyprichromis leptosoma jumbo tricolor Mpimbwe I mentioned above? They look really similar but the ones at my lfs have a neon blue edge on their dorsal and anal fins.
> ...


(1) Well, perhaps this is the time to make a couple of important points about your stocking plans. First, you can't mix Tanganyikans without carefully considering their behavioural requirements. Those two are really beautiful fishes, but their temperaments are so different that they are unlikely to coexist happily, even in a really large tank. These kinds of incompatibilities make it difficult to assemble a Tanganyikan 'community.' You need to decide which fishes interest you most, make a few choices, then build a community around them. 

Second, I'm not sure how much help we can provide here, because most of us have no experience with such a large tank. Certainly I feel more than a bit uncomfortable generalizing from my own experiences, all of which have been with tanks one-quarter as large or less.

(2) There are tons of different Cyprichromis populations (see Distribution maps of Lake Tanganyika cichlids), and subtle difference are common, so you need to know their collection point to be sure. I have both Utinta and Mpimbwe, and both are beautiful.

(3) There are a number of tribe _Ectodini_ fishes that occupy the mid-water column, most notably, the featherfins. There are also some mid-water Xeno's (_e. g. X. spilopterus_) and other lesser-known featherfins (_e. g. Ectodus descampsi_).




DJRansome said:


> ...sir_keith may have a recommendation on both the aragonite and the foai...which I was told would need the whole bottom...no calvus, no synodontis...


I use the basic Caribsea Aragonite in all my tanks; I have never tried any of the other versions.

Yes, _C. foai_ will want the whole bottom of _most_ tanks, but as I mentioned above, I have a feeling that many of our generalizations might be suspect in a 600g tank.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Thank you very much. I understand that my tank is probably vastly different from most of your experiences, but your experience is all I have to go by in terms of species compatibility. It's very hard to tease information out of Google when I myself am not even sure what exactly I'm looking for.

In terms of sand, are you able to tell which one you're using from this link: Marine Substrates - CaribSea

Even under aragonite sand they have different sizes. I am looking at the Fiji pink sand, as the Oolite is way too fine for my liking. Do you think sandsifters would do ok with that?

In terms of species mix, as mentioned before I would really like a lively and vibrant tank, so if a small group of the foai will take up all or almost all of the bottom then I guess I would pass on them. A friend of mine recommended that I just go with Frontosa, Altolamprologus and the Benthochromis tricoti and just stop at that. However, I am rather interested in the sandsifters, Cyprichromis, gobies and other fish like Julidochromis and maybe some single specimens of Neolamprologus. A large community basically. But given the size of my tank, do you think that a usual Tanganyikan community selection would be too small in size and end up looking very sparse and not lively? I would think that many tens of small 4-6 inch fish would just make the tank look messy and not that nice. After all, unlike smaller tanks my tank isn't really designed to be enjoyed by examining the fish up close but instead by sitting back and enjoying it as a large scene collectively. Really quite af a dilemma and very frustrated at being unable to even come up with some draft plans for advice.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Well then.....
Now *THIS*, is something that comes up on Cichlid-forum quite a lot,


illumnae said:


> I would think that many tens of small 4-6 inch fish would just make the tank look messy and not that nice. After all, unlike smaller tanks my tank isn't really designed to be enjoyed by examining the fish up close but instead by sitting back and enjoying it as a large scene collectively.


Best answer? Trust your instincts on this. Because even though a 600 gallon tank DOES change things a bit in the usual games we play as aquarists in stocking schemes with balancing aggression and other problems... compared to the wild - nature itself - your aquarium is actually very small. This same problem comes up just as often in larger, New World stocking schemes. My advice is always,
_LESS, IS MORE._
It may help to think of this situation as a bit like art. Where FOCUS on intentional things, can reveal the actual masterpiece within. Let's use some imagination to help out here!
And so, place yourself in the water column of that big African Rift Lake. Somewhere above a clear sandy bottom, near a rocky escarpment (invisible to the life forms around you). A look around would reveal that this little place you have found yourself is NOT densely populated. Fish just swimming and crawling 'willy-nilly' everywhere.
Nope.
But, your attention might be directed at that flash of light and color above the open expanse of sandy bottom.
Featherfin Cichlids!
Impossible to resist - those Cichlids (esp. the displaying males), are eye magnets!
Good: NOW you have established the centerpiece species for your tank. Stock lavishly with them!
And, making your stars that much more visually compelling in the mid to upper levels of the water column, are the 'supporting cast'. Dancing and weaving (warily) about amongst those Featherfin, 'Rock Stars' is the _Cypichromis_, 'supporting cast'. Smaller and brightly colored - they do not disappoint.
-
Looking for details now... your eye will inevitably be drawn to the rocky escarpment. Think small, shy and wary. There are no loudmouth Cichlid clowns or bullies here! You'll see a hint of movement, a possible flash of design and muted color - and that is IT.
The REAL SHOW of your 600 gallon tank should always be about those oh-so-impressive Featherfin Cichlids.
I personally believe that diluting from that focus (as in all larger tanks, where more numbers of the same species are needed - NOT more species), will diminish your aquarium. Cause it to lose focus, and be less visually comprehensible to the viewer.
Go with and emphasize the visual power (represented by the Featherfin Cichlids in this case), and the tank will benefit as a result.


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

illumnae said:


> ...In terms of sand, are you able to tell which one you're using from this link: Marine Substrates - CaribSea. Even under aragonite sand they have different sizes. I am looking at the Fiji pink sand, as the Oolite is way too fine for my liking. Do you think sandsifters would do ok with that?
> 
> ...In terms of species mix, as mentioned before I would really like a lively and vibrant tank... A friend of mine recommended that I just go with Frontosa, Altolamprologus and the Benthochromis tricoti and just stop at that. However, I am rather interested in the sandsifters, Cyprichromis, gobies and other fish like Julidochromis and maybe some single specimens of Neolamprologus. A large community basically...


The Aragonite I use is listed in the Freshwater section of the Caribsea website; the package looks like this-








I believe the nominal grain size is 1-2mm; you can get an idea of the grain size from this pic. This size is ideal for Tanganyikan sandsifters.








​
I had to chuckle at your friend's suggestion because if you are looking for a 'lively and vibrant tank,' the absolute last Tanganyikans I would choose would be frontosa, Alto's, or Bentho's, all of which are mellow and borderline lethargic. Frontosa's in particular are mopey in the extreme (they're popular because they get large), so no, I would not go in that direction.

One issue you have is that most Tanganyikans in the hobby are not large, but if you want some reasonably sized fishes that are active and interesting, by all means consider the featherfins (I may have held back on this suggestion earlier simply because they are my favourites.) The largest are _Cyathopharynx_, but their territorial demands are extreme, as you noted, so the best option might be _Ophthalmotiapia_. There are lots to consider, summarized here- Ophthalmotilapia

Amongst the _Ophthalmotilapia_, _O. boops_ are the largest and most aggressive; most of these are black with blue streaks, and take a long time to color up. _O. ventralis_ are somewhat less aggressive, but still plenty feisty, and this group includes some really lovely fishes, especially the various pale blue populations. _O. nasuta_ are the least aggressive in the genus; I particularly like _O. nasuta_ Kipili 'Gold' and Chimba 'Tiger.' I kept a breeding colony of 3m:5f wild-caught Kipili Gold's in a 125 for some years; here is a pic of one of the co-dominant males. This fish is 5-6"TL. I now have two F1 colonies from the original stock, and they are just as pretty.









Any of the featherfins could be centerpieces in your tank, but it's not just the fishes, it's also the nests. The males dig crater nests in the substrate, and if you leave enough open space, you will have several co-dominant males and their nests as centerpieces of your tank. Lively and vibrant? Absolutely. And to anticipate a question- no, I would not mix any of the _Ophthalmotilapia_.

Jumbo Cyps would be perfect for this tank, as mentioned previously. I'd skip the gobies, which just hide and/or sit on the bottom most of the time and can be nasty, as there are so many sand/mud bottom dwellers that are more interesting, _e. g. Limnochromis_ or T_riglochromis_. I particularly like _Triglochromis otostigma_-








These beefy 5-6" fishes are biparental mouthbrooders, and dig long tunnels in the hard mud bottom to spawn in the lake. They can be quite the diggers in captivity (only at night, apparently), but this is usually confined to a small area. They are also able to swim forwards and backwards with equal ease (useful for backing out of a narrow tunnel), which is quite entertaining.

So, more food for thought...


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

@sir_keith : still admiring that picture you posted up of the _Cyathopharynx furcifer. _Always been my favorite looking Tanganyikan Cichlid. And, at over 8 inches in adult-sized length? Whew! That rather dramatic Featherfin species is really something else!


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Auballagh said:


> Well then.....
> Now *THIS*, is something that comes up on Cichlid-forum quite a lot,
> 
> Best answer? Trust your instincts on this. Because even though a 600 gallon tank DOES change things a bit in the usual games we play as aquarists in stocking schemes with balancing aggression and other problems... compared to the wild - nature itself - your aquarium is actually very small. This same problem comes up just as often in larger, New World stocking schemes. My advice is always,
> ...


This is a vivid picture that you have painted and it appears beautiful in my mind! You, sir, have a way with words! I will attempt to have the featherfins as the focus fish in my tank!



sir_keith said:


> The Aragonite I use is listed in the Freshwater section of the Caribsea website; the package looks like this-
> 
> View attachment 143404​
> I believe the nominal grain size is 1-2mm; you can get an idea of the grain size from this pic. This size is ideal for Tanganyikan sandsifters.
> ...


Thank you for the information about the sand! I have decided to go with the Caribsea Fiji Pink sand (0.5-1.5mm) as it's not possible for me to get the cichlid sands here locally. Getting marine live sand helps me avoid having to wash 200lbs of sand as well since it comes prewashed. 

For stocking the tank, I'm wondering if the following species mix would work out. Exact numbers of each to be determined.

Feature fish

Cyathopharynx furcifer/foai
Which locality variants would be recommended? Based on pictures from the distribution website and what was available last month from the supplier, I was looking at the Malago variant of furcifer, but I note that foai isn't listed on the distribution website so I'm not sure what is what.

Dither fish

Cyprichromis sp. leptosoma jumbo
Paracyprichromis nigripinnis 
If possible I would like to have 2 distinctive types of dither fish dancing around the upper reaches of the tank. Without mixing species, I am hoping keeping fish from 2 different genus would work out. Or would different species of Cyprichromis work as well? I can keep leptosoma jumbo with zonatus perhaps? For the leptosoma jumbo, my supplier has the tricolor Mpimbwe in stock now, but they look more like the picture of black bee that you posted rather than the Mpimbwe picture on the distribution website. They are farm bred, so probably easier to get a large school than wildcaught ones.

Sandsifters

Enantiopus melanogenys Kilesa
Xenotilapia nigrolabiata Red Princess
I really love the patterns and colours on these 2 variants of sandsifters so I really hope to be able to keep them.

Others

Altolamprologus compressiceps 
Julidochromis dickfeldi Midnight Blue/ marlieri Kasanga
I really like the bright orange forms of Altolamprologus compressiceps like the Kugungu variant, but may have to settle for the Mandarin variant instead that doesn't have the blue lips and pearl like spots on the fins. The blue forms of Julidochromis are also very attractive to me. These fish would likely stay near the rock clusters and the Altolamprologus would aid in fry control since as I mentioned earlier I am not into breeding these fish and raising fry as this is a display tank.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

A range like that will make it difficult to siphon and may cause a problem with your filters sucking up the fine sand and grinding the impellers. 

I will leave the stock feedback to sir_keith as he has kept more of these fish than I. Seems like the foai and the cyps would fill the tank.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

DJRansome said:


> A range like that will make it difficult to siphon and may cause a problem with your filters sucking up the fine sand and grinding the impellers.
> 
> I will leave the stock feedback to sir_keith as he has kept more of these fish than I. Seems like the foai and the cyps would fill the tank.


My tank uses an overflow system into the sump. At 4ft tall it's not likely that the sand would enter the overflow. Even if it did, with a 6ft sump chances are that it would settle in the sump before reaching the return pumps, so I think the risk of damaging the pumps is low 

Given the height of the tank I'm actually also hoping to rely on the sandsifters to keep the sand well turned over and cut down the need for sand maintenance. When keeping South American cichlids I kept eartheaters for this purpose and they did this job exceptionally well


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

(1) Well, if you're jumping right into _Cyathopharxnx_, there's a reasonably good summary on this board (Cyathopharynx furcifer). They all handle similarly as far as I know, so which population you chose would be a combination of what you like and what's available. I would suggest that you spend some time online looking at people's fishes, not so much the pics, but the videos, which show them in more realistic color; there are many really stunning forms. I'd guess (and it is a _guess_) that 3 males and 6+ females would be a conservative goal for your tank.

(2) Cyps and Paracyps don't mix well, and Paracyps are not good dither fish. The Paracyps are not open water fishes; they are shy and like to hang out in close proximity to rock caves, and Cyps make them nervous. So this won't work.

Different Cyp species will hybridize in captivity, so the safe bet is a large school of a single population.

(3) _Xenotilapia nigrolabiata_ Red Princess is a Holy Grail Xeno, so good luck finding them. I've never been lucky enough to keep these beautiful fishes, so I can't say anything about them.

_Enantiopus kilesa_ are good tankmates for the smaller featherfins, but I do not know how they'd fare with _Cyanthopharynx_. Ordinarily I'd say give it a try, but do you really want to be netting fishes out a a 4-foot deep tank with regularity if it doesn't work out? I will point out that this plan might be considerably less dicey with _Ophthalmotilapia_ rather than _Cyanthopharynx_.

(4) A few Alto's and/or Julies sprinkled around the tank might work just fine, but I have never kept these with either featherfins or Xeno's.

One final note, if you're going to keep featherfins in this tank, and especially if you're going to keep _Cyanthopharynx_, 200 pounds of sand won't be nearly enough substrate once they start nest building. Search YouTube for '_Cyanthopharynx_ spawning' to see the elaborate nests you can expect.

Good luck!


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

For the sand, 160lbs is supposed to give a 1 inch layer of sand. How thick should the sand bed be?


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

One or two featherfin nests will leave you with large areas of bare bottom if you start out with a 1" layer; I'd go with at least twice that amount. Given enough substrate, the featherfin nests will be so deep that you can't even see the fishes inside them. There are lots of YouTube videos showing this.

This is an apples to oranges comparison, but the two lower tanks in the pic below both started out with ~1" of substrate, and the one on the right has been rearranged by a single half-grown (~3") pair of _Triglachromis otostigma._ When they were finished, the 'pyramid' was twice this height, and there just wasn't any more gravel to move.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Thank you, I've added more bags of sand to the order to be delivered tomorrow. If it's still not enough I'll have to add more sand while the tank is filled and the fish are inside. My initial plan was to add water and ammonia today to start the cycle for the tank, as I expect the next Tanganyikan shipment to arrive in 3-4 weeks. Will use a bottled bacteria product to speed things along. Unfortunately things got delayed as I discovered a chip in the 3d background that needed to be repaired and the silicone needs 24 hours to cure. Also the sand delivery got delayed, which is a good thing since it enabled me to add more bags of sand to the order.

After taking all your advice into account, this is what I think my final stocklist will be. Populations are based on what was available in the last stocklist so may be subject to change depending on what's in the next stocklist that will hopefully release next week. As I'm new to Tanganyikans, I am mostly opting for farmbred fish since I assume they will be more hardy than the wildcaughts.

Cyathopharynx foai Sibwesa / furcifer Resha x9 (3m 6f) [I can't decide between these 2. I love the red sheen on the foai Sibwesa, but the dorsal patterns on the furcifer Resha are captivating too...]
Cyprichromis leptosoma jumbo tricolor Mpimbwe x25
Synodontis granulosa x6
Altolamprologus compressiceps Mandarin x ??? (What's the recommended number and sex ratio?)
Enantiopus melanogenys Kilesa x ??? (What's the recommended number and sex ratio?)
Xenotilapia nigrolabiata Red Princess x ??? (What's the recommended number and sex ratio?)
I would really like to give the sandsifters a shot as even years ago when I was considering whether or not to try keeping Tanganyikans (I eventually didn't back then), it was the dorsal fin patterns of the sandsifters that caught my eye. The Red Princess is constantly available farmbred from my supplier, so I guess the wildcaught ones are holy grail fish but they are getting bred in sizeable numbers?


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Be careful with this.








How Many Days Til Nitrates? Is it Safe?


I've been keeping fish for a long time, but haven't cycled a new tank for many years. I'm currently cycling a 20 long. The LFS owner suggested I use "Seed" bacteria from Seachem. I was also told I could add fish at once with this product which I was leery of but did it anyway. I dosed the Seed...




www.cichlid-forum.com




There are NO shortcuts!
Get an API Master Test Kit, and ensure that water in this big aquarium is measuring ZERO Ammonia and Nitrites, with plenty of Nitrate production, before you get ANY of those awesome Cichlids.
Been having way too many problems on C-F lately with people not confirming a complete Cycle of their biological filtration before stocking with new fish.
DON'T be 'That Guy'! You know, the one who rushed into stocking with new fish before his tank was properly cycled, and was really upset about it later.
Be Safe!


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Auballagh said:


> Be careful with this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for the reminder. I have successfully used certain brands of bottled bacteria before with success to cycle tanks so I wouldn't say that they are all snake oil, but point taken about establishing a full cycle either way - with or without bottled bacteria - and I do have my test kits ready to ensure a full cycle before adding the fish. My supplier is able to hold fish for me in case the cycle is not complete before the new fish arrive (they have already been holding the Synodontis granulosa for me for almost 2 weeks already while I was preparing the tank)


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'd like to hear from sir_keith on your behalf about the combo of the Synodontis with those bottom dwellers you are currently planning. I am surprised they will be happy together.


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

illumnae said:


> ...After taking all your advice into account, this is what I think my final stocklist will be...
> 
> Cyathopharynx foai Sibwesa / furcifer Resha x9 (3m 6f)
> Cyprichromis leptosoma jumbo tricolor Mpimbwe x25
> ...



(1) On the _Cyanthopharynx_, you can't go wrong either way. By all means go with captive bred specimens if they are available.

(2) Excellent; that should be a lovely school of fishes. I'll look forward to seeing a Cyp colony with that much space.

(3) I'd skip the _Synodontis_ altogether (see below).

(4) I've never kept Altos with any of these fishes except the Cyps, so don't have an informed opinion here.

(5) _E. kilesa_- Super social fishes with highly ritualized intraspecific aggression. You'll want at least 12, and double that number wouldn't be too many. Sex ratio doesn't matter. 

(6) _X. nigrolabiata_- Lucky you to be able to get these. I have never been able to acquire them, so have no firsthand knowledge.



DJRansome said:


> ...I'd like to hear from sir_keith on your behalf about the combo of the Synodontis with those bottom dwellers you are currently planning. I am surprised they will be happy together...


They won't be happy together; the best that could be hoped for is uneasy coexistence. I would never keep catfish with my Tanganyikan sand-dwellers.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Some people don't even keep them with rock dwellers like calvus or shellies.


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

DJRansome said:


> Some people don't even keep them with rock dwellers like calvus or shellies.


Yeah, I know. I don't keep them at all; real estate on the bottom is too valuable.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Thank you very much. I'll try and see if my supplier is able to sell them to someone else, as I've already reserved them from him. If not, I'll have to change the stocklist to accommodate them. Is it only the sandsifters they won't get along with?

It's a pity though, they looked really nice and I heard they're uncommon


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

I've filled the tank and added the Seachem Cichlid Lake Salt and sodium bicarbonate. I accidentally added too much Cichlid Lake Salt due to a faulty weighing scale, but I dosed sodium bicarbonate according to an online calculator but both dgH and dkH are too high from what I was supposed to get from the additives. My parameters now are 19 dgH, 20 dkH and pH 8.38. Is this OK to start with once the cycle completes or do I have to adjust the parameters?


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

I'd get everything right before adding any fishes, and then endeavor to keep the water chemistry constant, as stability is the key. I endeavor to keep my tanks at 10-15 dGH and dKH at pH 8.8-9.0.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

OK! Sand is in the tank, double the original amount at 400lbs as advised  I've done some research into water parameters and 19dgH / 20dkH is fine apparently, so long as they are kept stable without major swings. I don't really want to do a water change now to reduce the parameters while the tank is cycling, so I will leave it for now and do a water change only after the cycle is complete to achieve more moderate parameters before the fish go in. The pH has been very slowly creeping up and is now 8.51, up from 8.38 2 days ago. I will be recalibrating the pH probe later tonight as well, as I believe it may be showing a lower pH than it should since the probe was previously calibrated for low pH readings using pH4 and pH7 calibration fluids. I'll be using pH7 and pH10 calibration fluids this time for more accurate readings.

I have also managed to speak with my supplier and he has agreed to find other buyers for the Synodontis granulosa, so they won't be on my stocking list for now. Anyone has recommendations for the number and sex ratio for the Altolamprologus, Julidochromis and sandsifters? Also, would I still be able to keep Limnochromis/Triglochromis in addition to my other fish?

@sir_keith can I also please check what locality of Cyathopharynx furcifer did you previously post?


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

You're right: those hardness parameters are fine, and if I had an established tank I wouldn't fuss with them. That said, when starting fresh I like to be in the middle of the 'acceptable' range, so as to have some leeway. As far as pH is concerned, it is definitely my impression that tribe _Ectodini_ Tanganyikans are much happier at pH9 than pH8.

I am keeping _Triglachromis_ with _Ophthalmotilapia_ and _Xenotilapia_, respectively, with no issues, but the Trigs are only half grown. I have kept adult WC Trigs in the past, and they don't seem to occupy all that much space on the bottom, but we shall see.

I believe the fish in the pic (not mine) is _C.foai_ Sibwesa.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Thank you! I did a 40% water change today to lower the dgH and dkH readings as adding the sand increased the readings to 20 dkH and 22 dgH. I think the Caribsea sand comes with some dissolved minerals in the water that comes with the bags of sand, so adding 20 bags worth increased the readings. Will test again tomorrow to see if they need to be adjusted back upwards.

Interestingly enough, I almost wanted to order Cyathopharynx foai Sibwesa, but based on your picture which looks to me like a Cyathopharynx furcifer instead, I decided to go ahead with Cyathopharynx furcifer Resha or Magara. These were the 2 variants from my supplier's stocklist that I liked best based on your recommendation to search for videos online. I like the Resha better, but the supplier only has 8-9cm juveniles available so they may not be able to be sexed yet. If not, then I'll go for the 8-12cm Magara instead, which the supplier has sexed already. On a side note, the available Cyathopharynx foai Sibwesa are only 6-7cm so are unable to be sexed too.

Here's what I plan to order:

Cyathopharynx furcifer Resha/Magara (3M6F)
Cyprichromis leptosoma jumbo tricolor Mpimbwe (20 pcs unsexed)
Altolamprologus compressiceps Mandarin (3M)
Enantiopus melanogenys Kilesa (2M3F)
Xenotilapia nigrolabiata Red Princess (2M3F)
I am tempted by some others on the stocklist like Callochromis macrops Ndole red, but am resisting the urge.


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

Is very possible, perhaps even likely, that the pic I posted is _C. furcifer_ Resha/Magara. So many of the featherfin populations are similar.

Two suggestions. (1) You will need more _E. kilesa_. These are highly social fishes, both in the wild and in captivity, and IME they do best in groups of 12 or more. (2) _Callochromis macrops_ are super aggressive, and the _Cyanthopharx_ need to be the dominant fishes in the tank. These two things are incompatible.

Good luck!


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

sir_keith said:


> Is very possible, perhaps even likely, that the pic I posted is _C. furcifer_ Resha/Magara. So many of the featherfin populations are similar.
> 
> Two suggestions. (1) You will need more _E. kilesa_. These are highly social fishes, both in the wild and in captivity, and IME they do best in groups of 12 or more. (2) _Callochromis macrops_ are super aggressive, and the _Cyanthopharx_ need to be the dominant fishes in the tank. These two things are incompatible.
> 
> Good luck!


Thank you! I have increased the number of E. kilesa to 5M9F and will not add the Callochromis. Now to continue cycling the tank and getting the water parameters right before the fish arrive!


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

After the water change, dkH is now at 12 and dgH is at 11. Both are at the mid range of parameters but as a result pH has dropped back to 8.3 from 8.5. How do i raise the pH without raising the dkH back to super high levels?


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

That's the problem with using sodium bicarbonate alone to raise the pH; it's fine for Malawi water chemistry where the pH isn't so high, but leads to the issue you've encountered in trying to achieve high pH Tanganyika water chemistry. The solution is to use an appropriate mixture of carbonate and bicarbonate salts. You'll find all kinds of DIY recipes online for doing this, or you can use a commercial product like SeaChem Tanganyika Buffer. That said, if your fishes are coming from water that is pH~8.5, I wouldn't worry about it for now: you're close enough, and you have time to decide how to treat your water changes going forward. It's not a reef tank; you do have some leeway.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

I think I might have quite alot of leeway to be honest. My supplier keeps them in his shop in just tapwater (my local tapwater is soft with low gh and kh with a pH of 7) and they do well for weeks until they are sold. Only thing is that they lose colour over time. I spoke with some local hobbyists and they don't use any kh buffers except coral sand as a substrate which typically only raises kh to 5-6. They don't measure gh or kh or ph, and they have successfully bred their fish. I am just trying to do my best to get the right parameters for my fish, though I think I may be overthinking it to some extent


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Came across an interesting thread: Tanganyika cichlids again

This guy with a beautiful tank kept Synodontis polli with featherfins successfully (first Cyathopharynx foai then Ophthalmotilapia nasuta). He didn't mention any aggression between the 2 types of fish. Is it because Synodontis polli is less aggressive than Synodontis granulosa? Or maybe it's the 4m long tank?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You CAN keep synodontis (I have kept polli) with rock and bottom dwellers. They won't die. It is just not ideal for either fish.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Makes perfect sense, thanks!


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

DJRansome said:


> ...You CAN keep synodontis (I have kept polli) with rock and bottom dwellers. They won't die. It is just not ideal for either fish...


Yeah sure, a big tank helps, but in any case, it's not the featherfins that are the issue with catfish, it's the sand sifters. And death is not an appropriate readout.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Now that I have settled most of the other details, I have the time to sit back and start visualizing the scape of the tank. As you may have seen in the picture I previously posted, I am using an Aquadecor background on the tank and with it, j have a number of Aquadecor fake rocks as well to match. I understand that I am keeping sand dwellers and so I want a lot of bottom real estate for them to do their thing, but the tank looks rather bare and boring without any hardware inside, plus some hardware to break line of sight is usually a good thing to help deal with aggression right?

With that, my thoughts are to have perhaps a cluster of larger rocks at the back right hand side of the tank, and one medium flat piece or a smaller cluster of smaller rocks at the front left, then a couple more small pieces scattered around. This somewhat borrows from the iwagumi concept of positioning rocks in planted tanks for a pleasant visual concept - something like this picture but much less complex:










Would this work out for the fish I intend to keep?


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Another picture showing the concept I'm visualizing


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

Yes, that should work. When space is limited (as defined by the fishes), sight lines help delineate possible territories, so vertical sight barriers are important. That's less of an issue in your tank, as the _Cyathopharynx_ will have plenty of room to make their large, species-typical nests, so you can concentrate more on the aesthetics.

I use live plants to break up sight lines, but that's probably not feasible in a 4' deep tank. Here is one example-








​This tank contains a small group of young _Ophthalmotilapia nasuta_ Chimba Tiger, and if you look carefully you can see that two co-dominant males have made nests, one under the plants on the left, and the other on the extreme right at the tank edge. The tank furnishings help keep the two territories distinct, minimize aggression between the co-dominant males, and ensure that they both have access to spawning partners.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Yup plants are not feasible for me at this point. Despite the 7 x 3 ft floor area I have, I actually find it quite lacking in floor space as rocks large enough to look appropriate in the tank by themselves also take up a lot of real estate. I'm just worried the bottom dwellers won't have enough bare sand. Oh well, I'll give it a shot and post pictures later!

In the meantime my stocking has hit a snag. The exporter has run out of 3" Altolamprologus compressiceps Mandarin and only has 2" ones in stock. My supplier will be bringing 10 pcs of the 2" ones in, but are they sexable at that size? If not, should I just get a larger number than the originally planned 3 males and hope for the best in terms of sex ratio? I really want the brightly colored orange of the males to bring some pop of colour to the tank.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You would always get six if you want to end up with three and two inches is larger than we can usually get them here. Even if the fish are sexable, there is no guarantee that the particular individuals would be happy together...better to let them choose and rehome extra fish.

Are you sure the orange is as bright as you think? In person most altos that are orange or yellow look kind of rusty to me.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Removing is going to be hard - with the 4ft height of the tank and all the nooks and crannies offered by the Aquadecor background, fish that go in generally aren't coming out. That's why I'd rather just forego the Synodontis granulosa instead of trying them out even though I really liked them


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

illumnae said:


> ...Despite the 7 x 3 ft floor area I have, I actually find it quite lacking in floor space as rocks large enough to look appropriate in the tank by themselves also take up a lot of real estate. I'm just worried the bottom dwellers won't have enough bare sand...
> 
> In the meantime my stocking has hit a snag. The exporter has run out of 3" Altolamprologus compressiceps Mandarin and only has 2" ones in stock... should I just get a larger number than the originally planned 3 males and hope for the best in terms of sex ratio?





illumnae said:


> ...Removing is going to be hard - with the 4ft height of the tank and all the nooks and crannies offered by the Aquadecor background, fish that go in generally aren't coming out...


My expectation would be that you will end up with two co-dominant _Cyathopharynx_ males who will want to build nests. I would leave enough space for those nests (the size of which you can see in YouTube videos) at each end of the tank, perhaps suggesting boundaries with scattered rocks, and concentrate the aquascaping in the middle. There should be enough space in this tank for them to get out of each other's way even with relatively open sight lines.

The _Enantiopus_ will be fine in whatever space is left over, because they mostly school and forage together, and only fuss with nesting during spawning, so they don't require much space. Do provide them with some rockwork to dive into when/if the featherfins get feisty. I'm not sure about the _X. nigrolabiata_.

One downside of deep tanks is the lack of access, as you know, so in this instance I think you are best advised to wait until sexed Alto's, or better still, mated pairs, are available. I agree with DJR that Alto's can vary in color. Here are two pics of the same fish from an earlier thread (Yellow Calvus or Golden Head Compressicep ?), one in which the color saturation has been enhanced in Photoshop, one in which it has been reduced. I have no idea which is closer to the true-to-life coloration.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Oops, I just came back to the forum from a scaping session where I had settled on a spaced out "triangular" rock placement that left alot of space in the middle instead, similar to this but with the largest rock nearer thr back right corner instead of so far front:










Guess it's back to the drawing board to just have 1 large cluster nearer the middle as advised!

Understand about the colour. It's my supplier's first time ordering this variant as well. He usually brings in the gold head and firefin variants when they are available - he had a bunch of nice gold heads just 2 weeks back from his previous shipment. My desired variant is actually the Altolamprologus compressiceps Kagunga with the blue lips and starry spangles on the fins, but my supplier said he has never seen them available ever from his exporter. The Mandarins are not commonly found on the stocklist either. I am ok with less saturated colouration so long as it's an entirely orange/yellow variant. To be honest, I would actually be happy with either of the pictures u posted. Too much variation arises due to so many factors like food, health, stress levels and even external lighting to be able to chase specific shades of colour. This is coming from someone who used to keep marine fish and discus, some of the most colorful fish in the hobby. I will also be able to see the fish in real life before deciding whether of not to go ahead. I didn't pre order this fish, but my supplier is giving me first pick before offering them for sale. If I like the colour I guess I'll go ahead with 6-8 juveniles and let them sort out their territories in the tank over time. They can also help with fry eating duties as I don't intend to breed and raise fry in this tank - it is purely a display tank.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)




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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Hmm... having done nothing to the tank except to let it cycle, my kh has dropped to 10. Is this a sign of the cycle taking place due to acidification eating away at the kh? Seems like quite a significant drop


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

I think I solved the mystery of kH - the Salifert freshwater kits are inconsistent. They give wildly inconsistent results even when testing 3 hours apart. I've since purchased an API test kit instead and hope it works better. 

I haven't been updating much as cycling a tank is probably the most boring part of any aquarist's journey. I'm glad to say that the cycle completed in just over a week with the help of a bacterial culture product. I know some of you regard such products as snake oil, but certain brands have always worked for me (some better than others) while others don't work at all. We can chalk it up to differences in experiences, but when I dose ammonia into the tank, and it tests 0 for ammonia and nitrites in 24h with an increase in nitrates, it's good enough for me. I also have another sludge remover bacteria product that I will start dosing once the fish get established in the tank to help with the breaking down of waste. I am a believer of dosing bacteria to help the tank function better.

My supplier's shipment came in a week earlier than previously scheduled so it's a good thing I went with the bacteria culture product instead of just letting time do its thing. I left most of the fish I ordered with the supplier except for the Cyanthopharx furcifer Resha, which I have brought home and into the tank. They started the first 24 hours by congregating together as a group near the sand and not moving much from there, but are now starting to spread out more and explore the tank. They are also already feeding well - I've fed them kensfish blackworm sticks and brine shrimp sticks and they have finished it all. They are only about 3+" without any colour at the moment so I hope the exporter sexed them properly for me (I ordered 3m6f, and they came packed 3 individually bagged and the other 6 bagged together).

The rest of the shipment had a couple of DOA and some fish didn't seem that stable so I left them with my supplier and will pick them up in batches over the next week. Thankfully, the 2m3f Xenotilapia nigrolabiata Red Princess all arrived stable and well, so they may be the next batch I bring home. I heard that they are pretty delicate so it's great that a stable batch came in.

Oh a question that I have - what is the recommended sex ratio for Julidochromis in my tank? I have decided to go with Julidochromis marlieri Magara, and there is a single one left from the previous shipment. I have no idea how to sex it, so I'm not sure if I should take this one home first and add more with the next shipment in September, or just order the entire batch together with the next shipment. My concern is that the exporter only had 10 small 2" Julidochromis marlieri Magara left on the stocklist, so by September I might not have any left to order if I don't take this one.

It's great that the tank finally has fish in it again, but the fish are coming in young and small so I think that it will be a long time before my tank appears lively and colorful as I have hoped.


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

Sounds like things are coming along nicely!

Featherfins and sand sifters are foraging omnivores, and feeding them appropriately is very important. Although they are not strict herbivores like _Tropheus_, their digestive tracts are similarly long and thin, making them susceptible to intestinal overloading. You do not want to feed these fishes a high protein diet, and you do not want these fishes to gorge themselves. Small feedings of vegetable-based foods are very important. They don't need a lot of variety; as with all things Tanganyikan, consistency is the key.

On the Julies, I'd get them all at once, and not worry about the gender ratio.

It will be fun to watch this tank come into its own as the Resha settle in and color up. That may take some time, but once nest builiding begins, you are in for a treat.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

sir_keith said:


> Sounds like things are coming along nicely!
> 
> Featherfins and sand sifters are foraging omnivores, and feeding them appropriately is very important. Although they are not strict herbivores like _Tropheus_, their digestive tracts are similarly long and thin, making them susceptible to intestinal overloading. You do not want to feed these fishes a high protein diet, and you do not want these fishes to gorge themselves. Small feedings of vegetable-based foods are very important. They don't need a lot of variety; as with all things Tanganyikan, consistency is the key.
> 
> ...


Oh no, now I'm a little worried about the food. I've so far been feeding them blackworm sticks and brine shrimp sticks from kensfish.com and I have a large supply of Fluval Bug Bites that I intend to incorporate into their diet. Both work well with South American cichlids (including omnivores like discus), and I've been using them to replace NLS for years with the SA cichlids. I don't have on hand very much else vegetable based except Repashy Soilent Green gel food, which I can mix with Repashy Bottom Scratcher/Spawn & Grow to make it an omnivore diet, but it's a little troublesome to make and doesn't keep very long in the fridge. Would I be able to feed them the pellets as a staple and supplement weekly with the Repashy gel food?

I've collected the sandsifters today as well and while the tank now seems much livelier, it's still a mass of just silver fish when viewed from far. Hopefully the Enantiopus melanogenys Kilesa at least colour up blue and yellow soon! So far the Xenotilapia nigrolabiata Red Princess seem to be doing OK (fingers crossed) but I only ordered 5 pcs to try them out and see if they're too delicate for my tank. If they do well I'll add more in the next shipment. Really hope that the Cyanthopharx furcifer Resha grow and colour up quickly. Looking forward to the feature fish of the tank taking the spotlight!

I'll probably collect the Cypichromis leptosoma jumbo tricolor Mpimbwe this Friday - 2 were doa when the shipment arrived and 1 had popeye and died soon after, so I have 17 left. I don't think that's enough to fill the top and middle of my tank, so I will definitely be ordering more Cypichromis in the next shipment. I understand that I shouldn't order any more Cypichromis leptosoma jumbo variants due to crossbreeding concerns, but can I order other Cypichromis species like microlepidotus, pavo or zonatus instead?


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

No need to hit the panic button here, but when I heard what you are feeding the featherfins I thought it best to steer you away from a high protein staple diet, because in the long term that will be problematic. These fishes do just fine on the kind of spirulina-intensive diet that works well for _Tropheus_, perhaps supplemented with plankton-based foods every now and then. Frozen foods (shrimp or krill) are also useful for getting the fishes into breeding shape, but again, these should be supplements only. I use spirulina flakes as their staple (~75%) diet, with pellets only occasionally. 

You get Ken's Fish products in Singapore? That's close to where I grew up, but 3000+ miles from where I live now. Ken's spirulina flakes work well with all the fishes you will be keeping.

I haven't kept different _Cyprichromis_ species together, but if you look at the Cyprichromis distribution map (http://www.tanganyika.si/ImagesMaps/Cyprichromis.jpg) you will see that some of these species occur sympatrically in the lake, indicating they do not hybridize in nature. That's no guarantee they will not do so in captivity, but if you have plenty of both sexes available it's unlikely to be a problem. All bets are off if you mix two species that never see each other in the wild, and there may or may not be other behavioural incompatibilities that prove problematic. I wouldn't expect that to happen, but in truth I just don't know.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

I order food in bulk from kensfish and ship them over every 6-12 months. Singapore retailers apply such an insane markup that it's cheaper for me to purchase from kensfish and DHL the food over than to purchase locally. Doing it every 6-12 months ensures the food remains fresh as well - some local distributors don't even replenish their stock as often as that.

Flake won't work for me as my tank uses an overflow system for filtration that would sweep the flakes into the filter before it gets the chance to sink. That's the reason I switched away from using NLS as I found that recent batches of NLS tend to have 20-30% of the pellets float rather than sink. I use an autofeeder so I can't presoak them. I thought that using Ken's sticks would work well for the sandsifters as they sink fast and are too large to be eaten quickly by the faster fish. They soften slowly on the sand instead, so the sandsifters can slowly eat at their leisure. I was thinking of mixing pellets and sticks and feeding them together so the faster Cyprichromis and Altolamprologus would eat the slow sinking pellets in the water column, while the Cyanthopharx and sandsifters could graze on the sticks as they soften. I guess I could sell the blackworm and brine shrimp sticks, and purchase the ultra spirulina sticks instead. Alternatively, do you think getting large 3mm veggie pellets from Northfin would serve the same purpose of sinking fast for the grazers? I prefer the quality of ingredients from brands like NLS, Ocean Nutrition and Northfin rather then bulk foods from Kensfish if I can help it (I got the Ken's sticks previously for fancy plecos due to their grazing habits, but have since stopped keeping them).

I checked out the Cypichromis distribution map and it seems that Cyprichromis leptosoma jumbo overlaps with both Cyprichromis microlepidotus and Cyprichromis zonatus. Both these species grow as large as the jumbos right? If so I'd like to get them instead to create more colour and life in the tank. Seeing the 17 in my supplier's small tank makes me think I need many many more for a lively group in mine.


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

Wow, so many novel aspects to having a setup like this...

I'm not sure what to advise on the food going forward. The only thing I can suggest is that whatever you do, you do not want the featherfins to eat too much food at any one time. Perhaps this is just a matter of feeding small portions several times each day? I'd be leery of the 3mm pellets, because having the fish ingest a large clump of concentrated food is exactly the kind of thing you want to avoid. 

For sure you need more Cyps before your school will make much of an impact. I usually keep ~25 fishes in a 72" x 18" tank, and that seems to work well both for the fishes and as regards visual impact.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

I first encountered this issue when trying to get food to SA corydoras and plecos in a tank with voracious tetras and SA cichlids. Applying that experience now with the sandsifters! 

I'm trying to sell off my existing stock of food now, but do you think they'll do ok with just a normal staple pellet like Fluval Bug Bites? This is the one I use: https://fluvalaquatics.com/us/product/bug-bites-color-enhancing-formula-for-medium-to-large-fish/

If I do manage to sell off the existing stock of food, this is what I'm planning to get: https://www.northfin.com/services/veggie-formula/

Previously I used to set up my autofeeders to feed 4x a day (including once in the middle of the night when all lights were off so that the bottom feeders would be able to have some food reach the bottom) so I'm used to small but frequent feedings. I haven't done that yet with my new fish, and they are only on 1 meal a day at the moment. I'll cut down on the Ken's sticks in the meantime and start making a batch of Repashy Soilent Green + Bottom Scratcher for them to get some greens into their system. I have also found Repashy to be unparalleled in getting great growth out of young fish. I once bought some pleco fry from a friend and fed them on a Repashy diet. 2 months later, the fry I brought home had doubled in size versus the ones my friend kept and continued feeding pellets.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

Northfin cichlid formula is perfectly fine for Foai/Furcifer. I feed them both cichlid and veggie formula 2mm pellets.
If you want to add more protein to their diet occasionally, I would feed frozen mysis shrimp. 
I only do this if I am trying to encourage spawning in my adults.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

noddy said:


> Northfin cichlid formula is perfectly fine for Foai/Furcifer. I feed them both cichlid and veggie formula 2mm pellets.
> If you want to add more protein to their diet occasionally, I would feed frozen mysis shrimp.
> I only do this if I am trying to encourage spawning in my adults.


Do you mix the formulas 50-50? The Fluval Bug Bites is probably similar to the cichlid formula, so if it's ok to mix with the veggie formula then I can just continue using it as a mix rather than having to sell it


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

One option with the Repashy is once you make up a batch, you can freeze what you don't use for a few months with no issues. I use the mini-muffin tins and once it's set and cooled, cut into appropriately sized chunks and freeze in a Zip-loc bag. You can also use mini ice cube trays but may need to gently pry out the individual Repashy cubes.

I just thaw out the previously frozen chunks before feeding.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

I use a baking tray to make about 500ml of repashy every batch, then cut into 1 inch cubes to store in the fridge. Theh used to last 2 weeks before going bad. I tried the freezer method but it didn't work out for me - I found that after freezing the cubes release powder into the water when I feed. Don't have that issue when I refrigerate.

Anyhow, I've managed to sell off all my existing food. Will get a batch of Ocean Nutrition Formula 2 or NLS Algaemax to last while I order Northfin from kensfish. 

@noddy do you know the difference between Northfin Veggie formula and Northfin Marine formula? They seem very similar but the Marine formula contains less ash content. I'm wondering if the Marine formula would be better?


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

illumnae said:


> Do you mix the formulas 50-50? The Fluval Bug Bites is probably similar to the cichlid formula, so if it's ok to mix with the veggie formula then I can just continue using it as a mix rather than having to sell it


I have it mixed equally with NLS Thera + A (1/3 ea)
I also feed O.S.I spirulina flake
I can't comment on bug bites as I have never used it, but a quick search shows that it contains twice as much fat as northfin cichlid formula and it does not contain spirulina or kelp.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

I'm going to collect the Cypichromis today and that's it for the next month until the next shipment comes in. The tank is going swimmingly as far as I can ascertain. The fish are all very active and gobble up all the food that is fed. The Enantiopus melanogenys Kilesa males are showing obvious signs of coloring up - the bottom fins have darkened to black and their heads and bodies are showing a lovely metallic blue and bright yellow colouration. 

On the food front I've sold off most of my existing stock and purchased some Ocean Nutrition Formula 2 to last me while I order the Northfin from kensfish. I've also made a fresh batch of Repashy (50% Soilent Green and 50% Spawn & Grow). I hope this contains enough of a mix of greens plus insect protein to meet their dietary needs.

I've managed to source a better pump for my awc, so instead of doing a continuous 5% daily awc 24/7, I will be doing 5% daily wc over 2-3 hours. This gives me the capacity to increase awc volume if required based on the water parameters. I'm in the midst of having this set up now and tuning it with the daily kh, mg and reef salt dosing. I'm also in the midst of transitioning my tank automation system from Neptune Apex to Reef Factory - that's where the new awc pump and dosing pump are coming from, but eventually I will transition the entire system over. Exciting times!


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

It's been about 3 and a half weeks since the first fish entered the tank and things seem to be going well. There's some noticeable but small growth observed and some of the fish are coloring up very well. I haven't managed to install the 5% daily auto water change system in yet as my installer fell very sick, but I do a 50% water change every 2 weeks for now and it seems fine. I've experimented with various types of food such as Repashy (Soilent Green + Spawn & Grow mix), NLS Algaemax, Ocean Nutrition Formula 2 and Northfin Veggie Formula and I think I will pick Repashy and Northfin as the long term options.

I've also added more Cyprichromis in the tank as the original 17 (3 were DOA) tricolor jumbos were just too few for my tank. So far no fish have died in my tank that I am aware of (no bodies found so far and those that I can count show up whenever I count them). My current stocklist stands at:

Cyprichromis leptosoma jumbo tricolor Mpimbwe x24
Cyprichromis microlepidotus Bulu Point x24
Paracyprichromis nigripinnis Blue Neon x8
Altolamprologus compressiceps Mandarin x8
Enantiopus melanogenys Kilesa x15
Xenotilapia nigrolabiata Red Princess x5
Cyathopharynx furcifer Resha x9
The tank looks really lively now and I think my stocking is just about complete - I may add more Cyprichromis as I feel the upper regions of the tank still need to be filled out more, and a couple of Julidochromis marlieri Magara, but that should be about it and the tank would be magnificent once the fish grow up more.

Here's a cute picture of 2 of the Enantiopus melanogenys Kilesa hanging out on a date away from the sand. You can also see the alpha Cyathopharynx furcifer Resha in the picture (he's so greedy and fat):










I will update my thoughts on each species of fish I have in my next post


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

This is my first time ever keeping Tanganyikan fish, so it is a completely new experience for me coming first from community tanks as a kid, then growing into the South American side of the hobby before dabbling in reef tanks then back to SA cichlids. I'm most glad for the few years I spent reefing as to me, that was really what prepared me most for this new aspect of the hobby. If I didn't already learn to maintain much more stringent water parameters in reefing, and if I didn't already familiarize myself with the array of equipment used by reefers to automate alot of tasks (which seem absent in the freshwater hobby for some reason), I don't think I would be having as smooth a journey as I have been so far. Not to mention of course all the valuable advice you guys have given me over the past weeks!

Without much further ado, here's some of my thoughts and observations about the fish I've been keeping. I hope that it can provide some anecdotal help to other newcomers to the hobby in future, as well as elicit more comments and advice from all you experienced hobbyists too!

*Cyprichromis leptosoma jumbo tricolor Mpimbwe *
One of the "dither" fish in this tank. This species has really developed into the most colourful fish in my tank. The gentle lavender bodies contrast well with dark black dorsal fins and bright yellow heads. I really would strongly recommend them for a bright splash of colour in large tanks. I have read reports of them being highly aggressive but i haven't observed this yet personally. My only gripe is that they don't perform the role of "dither" as well as typical characins do - they loosely shoal but tend to congregate on one side of the tank, not really filling in the spaces to make the upper reaches of the tank look full and alive. Maybe having more will help. I see people having 20 Cyprichromis in 120 gallon tanks so my 600 gallon likely requires many many more especially since I have so much vertical space to fill with 4ft of water height.

*Cyprichromis microlepidotus Bulu Point *
When I ordered this fish as a second "dither" species, I expected something more colourful than the tricolors due to pictures and videos found online. These fish unfortunately still have a dull base colour rather than the rusty brown/orange I was expecting. However from day 1, they have sported a brilliant blue iridescence on their heads and dorsal fins, so they are still beautiful in their own way. I hope that given more time they will get the nice rusty base colour as well. Same issues on suitability as "dither" fish as the tricolors so I may ge adding mire too.

*Enantiopus melanogenys Kilesa *
The current stars if the tank. The featherfins were meant to take centrestage as the feature fish of this tank, but at the moment it is the Enantiopus melanogenys Kilesa that have coloured up so magnificently. The 5 males I ordered have spread out through the bottom of the tank and each claimed a small territory for himself. I'm starting to see the small pits of sand I read about in some of the territories so it's really quite cool. I see chasing occur but nothing too violent. Interestingly enough, they leave the Xenotilapia nigrolabiata Red Princess alone and even left a corner of the tank free for them to hang out. How considerate.

*Cyathopharynx furcifer Resha *
They arrived as pure silver, colourless fish. Thankfully, they are starting to show abit more colour. I read that males would start to colour up by showing black/blue and yellow in their dorsal and anal fins, and that's what's happening now. Some females also show a white streak in their dorsal. What's interesting to note is that the females are looking longer and slimmer, while the males are shorter and broader/fatter, making the males look smaller or younger than the females. Is this normal? Another troubling thing is that I ordered 3 males and 6 females, but it looks like I got a 4:5 ratio instead. Should I order more females? Nothing much else to say about them except that I really hope they grow into being the feature fish that they're supposed to be!

*Altolamprologus compressiceps Mandarin *
Not much to say about them except that at the moment they aren't living up to the Mandarin tag. They are a very pale yellow and not orange in the slightest. Perhaps I should have gone with black Calvus instead? Not very interesting behavior either so far, just some conspecific chasing around.

*Paracyprichromis nigripinnis Blue Neon *
I bought these fish with zero expectations as I know they are shy and delicate. It's just that with 3 sides of 3d background and 4ft height, it seems such a waste not to keep some vertical rock wall dwellers. So far they've been interesting, though not coloring up much. 2 are remaining very dark while the rest are a dull grayish colour. No neon blue to be seen. They do perch on the rock walls though so it's cool to see them in their niche. Sometimes they even treat the front tank glass as a wall and perch there for me to see their underbelly. Quite cute really.

*Xenotilapia nigrolabiata Red Princess *
Finally, the supposed holy grail fish that I have been fortunate to have access to. I have heard many horror stories on how delicate they are so I frankly expected them to not survive beyond a few days. I was even planning to replace them with Xenotilapia flavipinnis Kekese for the red colouration once they passed on. Surprisingly, they have defied all odds and all 5 are still alive and finding their place in the tank. I was initially quite disappointed in their colour as I thought they maxed out at a small size and so should have full colour already. Thankfully I did some research and found that they actually grow larger than I thought and mine look exactly like the smaller one at the bottom left of this picture (covered by the watermark): https://aquainfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Xenotilapia-nigrolabiata-Red-Princess.jpg. Mine are about 2 inches now. I hope that they will eventually develop the vivid red that they are known for.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

@sir_keith You mentioned earlier in the thread that Benthochromis tricoti and Cyathopharynx furcifer cannot be kept together. Could I please check why this is so? In one of the Facebook groups that I joined, I saw a smaller tank than mine keeping both species together


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

illumnae said:


> @sir_keith You mentioned earlier in the thread that Benthochromis tricoti and Cyathopharynx furcifer cannot be kept together. Could I please check why this is so? In one of the Facebook groups that I joined, I saw a smaller tank than mine keeping both species together


I tried keeping them together in 6’ 210g tank.
Bad idea. All benthos stressed out and eventually died. 
the only fish I would keep benthos with again would be paracyps and a mellow sand sifter.
And I wouldn’t keep them in anything smaller than an 8’ tank.
Low light, low traffic, long tank and very peaceful tank mates for me,


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

OK got it thanks! I'll resist the temptation then, as some good sized ones appeared on the next shipment stocklist. I was trying to think of more open water swimmers to add without adding more Cyprichromis... 4ft of height really creates alot of open water space! Even with 48 Cyprichromis the tank still looks empty at the top!

For Julidochromis, how many should I add? I'm thinking of getting Julidochromis marlieri Magara


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

illumnae said:


> @sir_keith You mentioned earlier in the thread that Benthochromis tricoti and Cyathopharynx furcifer cannot be kept together. Could I please check why this is so? In one of the Facebook groups that I joined, I saw a smaller tank than mine keeping both species together


As @noddy already mentioned, the _Benthochromis_ are far too timid to thrive with tankmates as boisterous as _Cyathopharynx_, and they will ultimately succumb to chronic stress. It's a combination that just doesn't work long-term.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Ok thank you, I guess I'll add 20-30 more Cyprichromis


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

illumnae said:


> Ok thank you, I guess I'll add 20-30 more Cyprichromis


You know, if you just wait a while, the Cyps are likely to fill the tank for you...


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

sir_keith said:


> You know, if you just wait a while, the Cyps are likely to fill the tank for you...


Ok, I'll do that!


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

*Cyathopharynx furcifer Resha *

Alpha male:








Female? Or a subdominant male?









*Cyprichromis leptosoma jumbo tricolor Mpimbwe 


























Cyprichromis microlepidotus Bulu Point

















*


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

*Altolamprologus compressiceps Mandarin 


















Enantopius melanogenys Kilesa 


















Xenotilapia nigrolabiata Red Princess 








*


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

This was a great read. Thanks for sharing this. 

A comment on North fin, the cichlid formula sinks fairly quickly, but the veggie formula does not. Have you considered some kind of feeding ring to keep food out of your overflow? Just a thought. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

marten said:


> This was a great read. Thanks for sharing this.
> 
> A comment on North fin, the cichlid formula sinks fairly quickly, but the veggie formula does not. Have you considered some kind of feeding ring to keep food out of your overflow? Just a thought.
> 
> ...


Thank you for stopping by this thread! I've been feeding the Northfin Veggie Formula and find that it sinks very well - much better than the NLS Algaemax. I have one of my flow outlets slightly raised to create surface agitation to get nice light ripples in the water from my led lights, and I think that helps the pellets sink. Unfortunately with the NLS about 10% of the pellets always remain floating and end up going down the overflow. No such issues with the Northfin.


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## marten (Jan 23, 2018)

illumnae said:


> Thank you for stopping by this thread! I've been feeding the Northfin Veggie Formula and find that it sinks very well - much better than the NLS Algaemax. I have one of my flow outlets slightly raised to create surface agitation to get nice light ripples in the water from my led lights, and I think that helps the pellets sink. Unfortunately with the NLS about 10% of the pellets always remain floating and end up going down the overflow. No such issues with the Northfin.


That’s great! Sounds like it’s working. Maybe I got a different batch of the veggie formula then. Who knows. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

illumnae said:


> ...This is my first time ever keeping Tanganyikan fish, so it is a completely new experience for me coming first from community tanks as a kid, then growing into the South American side of the hobby before dabbling in reef tanks then back to SA cichlids. I'm most glad for the few years I spent reefing as to me, that was really what prepared me most for this new aspect of the hobby. If I didn't already learn to maintain much more stringent water parameters in reefing, and if I didn't already familiarize myself with the array of equipment used by reefers to automate alot of tasks (which seem absent in the freshwater hobby for some reason), I don't think I would be having as smooth a journey as I have been so far. Not to mention of course all the valuable advice you guys have given me over the past weeks!
> 
> Without much further ado, here's some of my thoughts and observations about the fish I've been keeping. I hope that it can provide some anecdotal help to other newcomers to the hobby in future, as well as elicit more comments and advice from all you experienced hobbyists too!...


I just wanted to add some brief comments to your progress report. In general, it sounds like things are going very well indeed.

*(1)* As far as the Cyps functioning as 'dithers' in a Characin-typical manner; you are correct- there will be much more of that when you have more fishes, and hopefully the Cyps will provide you with some progeny. The young will need an area near the surface where they can congregate without needing to fight a strong current constantly.

*(2)* The _C. microlepidotus_ should colour up given time to settle in.

*(3)* I am not a bit surprised that the _E. kilesa_ (now a _bona fide_ species distinct from _E. melanogenys_) have won you over; these are wonderful fishes. They are beautiful and gregarious, but their aggression is highly ritualized, and I have never seen them damage each other. They also largely ignore _Xenotilapia_. One of my favourite Tanganyikans.

*(4)* I am a bit concerned about your _C. furcifer_. You made a comment previously about the male being 'fat,' and the pic you posted shows a fish that has gorged himself with food. _Cyathopharynx_ are foraging omnivores, and as such they have long, thin digestive tracts similar to those of herbivores, _e. g. Tropheus_. These fishes can be subject to intestinal overloading if allowed to consume large amounts of concentrated food (_e. g._ pellets) at one time; far better to feed small amounts of food more often.

Other than that, the male is colouring up nicely for this stage of the game. And finally, it is virtually impossible to distinguish female featherfins from young males without venting. I have seen fishes that I thought were females for 2 years suddenly show as males when moved into a new environment. That said, I wouldn't worry about the gender ratio unless you have a vast preponderance of males.

*(5)* _'Not very interesting behaviour so far...'_ For _Altolamprologus_, that comes with the territory. I've never kept the Mandarin population, so can't comment on the colour, but wouldn't be surprised if it was less than advertised in most individuals.

*(6)* So far so good with the Paracyps; it's not something I would have tried, but it sounds like they're doing fine in this big tank. Whether they will colour up fully in this environment is another matter.

*(7)* Like all _Xenotilapia_, you need to be patient with the Red Princess. I have never been fortunate enough to keep these myself, but have seen adults in full colour and they are spectacular.

Stay the course; all is well. Will be looking forward to seeing some videos!  

BTW, will you be going to the Grand Prix next weekend?


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

sir_keith said:


> I just wanted to add some brief comments to your progress report. In general, it sounds like things are going very well indeed.
> 
> *(1)* As far as the Cyps functioning as 'dithers' in a Characin-typical manner; you are correct- there will be much more of that when you have more fishes, and hopefully the Cyps will provide you with some progeny. The young will need an area near the surface where they can congregate without needing to fight a strong current constantly.


I'll be honest, things are going alot better than I expected. I thought that I'd experience much more issues especially in relation to the water conditions. Thanks to everyone's guidance here and lots of planning and research it's been a smooth journey so far.

I'm abit confused, when you say more fishes do you mean more Cyprichromis or more of other types of fish? I thought your previous advice was not to add any more.



sir_keith said:


> *(2)* The _C. microlepidotus_ should colour up given time to settle in.
> 
> *(3)* I am not a bit surprised that the _E. kilesa_ (now a _bona fide_ species distinct from _E. melanogenys_) have won you over; these are wonderful fishes. They are beautiful and gregarious, but their aggression is highly ritualized, and I have never seen them damage each other. They also largely ignore _Xenotilapia_. One of my favourite Tanganyikans.


Yes, they have become one of my favourites as well! Very colourful and very interesting behaviour. I really like the small sand formations they create as well. Very different and more interesting than the large pits of the featherfins.



sir_keith said:


> *(4)* I am a bit concerned about your _C. furcifer_. You made a comment previously about the male being 'fat,' and the pic you posted shows a fish that has gorged himself with food. _Cyathopharynx_ are foraging omnivores, and as such they have long, thin digestive tracts similar to those of herbivores, _e. g. Tropheus_. These fishes can be subject to intestinal overloading if allowed to consume large amounts of concentrated food (_e. g._ pellets) at one time; far better to feed small amounts of food more often.
> 
> Other than that, the male is colouring up nicely for this stage of the game. And finally, it is virtually impossible to distinguish female featherfins from young males without venting. I have seen fishes that I thought were females for 2 years suddenly show as males when moved into a new environment. That said, I wouldn't worry about the gender ratio unless you have a vast preponderance of males.


I am concerned as well. This guy is pretty smart. He claimed the area where the pellets settle on the sand as his territory where he is building his nest, so whenever I feed the tank, the food is brought by the flow straight into his nest where he gets first pick and gorges himself before the other fish swarm in to grab the rest of the food. That's probably why he's the most coloured up of all the featherfins and yet in terms of body length he's actually the smallest one. Even the females are longer than he is. I have split daily feedings to twice a day now, and will eventually increase it to 4x a day. My only concern is that since he gets first pickings of each meal, he will continue gorging himself at each feeding and just leave less for the other fish instead.

I ordered 3m6f for the featherfins, but based on how the dorsal fins are colouring up - having yellow and blue markings means they're male right? - I have at least 4 males now.



sir_keith said:


> *(5)* _'Not very interesting behaviour so far...'_ For _Altolamprologus_, that comes with the territory. I've never kept the Mandarin population, so can't comment on the colour, but wouldn't be surprised if it was less than advertised in most individuals.


I added more Altolamprologus compressiceps Mandarin as my wife asked me to. The second batch arrived larger and better coloured so I hope it's due to size and they will colour up more as they grow.



sir_keith said:


> *(6)* So far so good with the Paracyps; it's not something I would have tried, but it sounds like they're doing fine in this big tank. Whether they will colour up fully in this environment is another matter.


I doubt that they will ever fully colour up, but I enjoy their wall dwelling behaviour. 



sir_keith said:


> *(7)* Like all _Xenotilapia_, you need to be patient with the Red Princess. I have never been fortunate enough to keep these myself, but have seen adults in full colour and they are spectacular.


I am hoping for tye best with these as they grow! I was told that they're super delicate so I'm just happy that they are doing well in my tank. I've added another 5 to the colony.



sir_keith said:


> Stay the course; all is well. Will be looking forward to seeing some videos!
> 
> BTW, will you be going to the Grand Prix next weekend?


Thank you, I will try to take some videos.

I will not be going to the Grand Prix event. Crowds are not really my thing


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

(1) On the Cyps, when I said 'more fishes' I meant more Cyps. The only reason I suggested that you wait a while before adding more Cyps to your tank is that they are likely to produce progeny, so your school will grow with time. But if you want to increase it now, by all mean add some more Cyps.

(3) I agree about the _E. kilesa_ 'castle with turrets' nests; they are really cool.

(4) I don't know what to do about your _C. furcifer_ male; perhaps he will be fine with the diet you've chosen, even though his eating habits are rather porcine. If you're getting lots of color in the fins of these fishes, those are males; hints of color would be ambiguous.

(7) Oh man, I am jealous! Can't wait to see some pics of the Red Princess males.

I don't like crowds either, but for a Grand Prix I make an exception. Ideally, one could watch the race whilst sitting on your balcony...


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

sir_keith said:


> (1) On the Cyps, when I said 'more fishes' I meant more Cyps. The only reason I suggested that you wait a while before adding more Cyps to your tank is that they are likely to produce progeny, so your school will grow with time. But if you want to increase it now, by all mean add some more Cyps.


I thought that with the Altolamprologus, fry wouldn't survive in my tank. I'm tempted to add 11 more of each species of Cyprichromis to make it 70 in total in the tank, but I'm holding back for now. I think the supplier is currently out of stock of the Cyprichromis microlepidotus Bulu Point anyway so that helps curb the temptation. 



sir_keith said:


> (3) I agree about the _E. kilesa_ 'castle with turrets' nests; they are really cool.


Some new pictures of the E. kilesa




















sir_keith said:


> (4) I don't know what to do about your _C. furcifer_ male; perhaps he will be fine with the diet you've chosen, even though his eating habits are rather porcine. If you're getting lots of color in the fins of these fishes, those are males; hints of color would be ambiguous.


I have adjusted the flow in the tank such that his nest is no longer where the food drops. Let's see how things develop from here. If he moves his nest location to the new food settling spot then I think there's nothing more I can do.

Would this fish be an obvious male too, or a possible female still?












sir_keith said:


> (7) Oh man, I am jealous! Can't wait to see some pics of the Red Princess males.


Here's one of the new ones. Still not striking yet, but shows some colour at least. They're all still really small though, about 2 inches. I read that both males and females get good red colouration when they are adults? Or is it only the males? 












sir_keith said:


> I don't like crowds either, but for a Grand Prix I make an exception. Ideally, one could watch the race whilst sitting on your balcony...


I can get a view of the racetrack from my office actually, but I still probably won't be going down!


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

illumnae said:


> I thought that with the Altolamprologus, fry wouldn't survive in my tank. I'm tempted to add 11 more of each species of Cyprichromis to make it 70 in total in the tank, but I'm holding back for now. I think the supplier is currently out of stock of the Cyprichromis microlepidotus Bulu Point anyway so that helps curb the temptation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


(1) I forgot about the Alto's; even so, in a tank this size, with so many Cyps, their predation success is likely to be limited.

(4) Good plan for the C_. furcifer_ male. The pic you posted looks more like a female to me at this point, but only time will tell.

(7) Like many _Xenotilapia_ species, 'Red Princess' females can show good colour, although there is some variation. 

I have a friend who works in the aerodynamics department for Red Bull Racing in Milton Keynes. Go Max!


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

That Furcifer looks like a female to me. It could be a young male but, the first thing to look for (Imo) is an elongated anal fin which will I.D a male.
The red princess, from what I have read and heard from sellers is that they are very difficult to tell apart.
Which means they should both be nicely coloured up at some point.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

sir_keith said:


> (1) I forgot about the Alto's; even so, in a tank this size, with so many Cyps, their predation success is likely to be limited.
> 
> (4) Good plan for the C_. furcifer_ male. The pic you posted looks more like a female to me at this point, but only time will tell.
> 
> ...





noddy said:


> That Furcifer looks like a female to me. It could be a young male but, the first thing to look for (Imo) is an elongated anal fin which will I.D a male.
> The red princess, from what I have read and heard from sellers is that they are very difficult to tell apart.
> Which means they should both be nicely coloured up at some point.


Do you mean an elongated pair of ventral fins to identify the males? I can't seem to tell the difference in their anal fins between the obvious male and the others.

The fish in the tank seem to have undergone a growth spurt in the past 2 weeks, as all of them have grown a couple of centimeters very obviously. I have managed to set up the auto water change of about 5% daily with dosing of gH, kH and marine salt solutions to keep parameters stable, so maybe that is helping? Another obviously coloured up male Cyathopharynx has emerged and he is larger than the previous one. I think the change in flow may have triggered this. The previous alpha is still keeping guard at his previous nesting area where the food used to settle, but he hasn't been digging his nest as enthusiastically as he used to. This area is about 1/3 towards the left side of the tank. The newly coloured up male now guards the extreme left side of the tank, though he hasn't started digging his nest yet. Interestingly, the alpha Enantiopus kilesa is digging his sandcastles at the front of the tank in between the territories of the 2 male Cyathopharynx. I notice that my fish like to congregate towards the left side of the tank. Not sure why.

The alpha Cyathopharynx has coloured up beautifully. However, I notice that he had some tears on his dorsal and anal fins at about the same time the new male started showing his colours (first 2 pictures. Seems healed by the 3rd picture taken 2 days later). Perhaps fighting with the newly developed male? The new male has perfect fins but is less colourful than the alpha still. The alpha is still fat but has lost some weight.




























This is the same fish that I thought was male but you think is a female. Short ventral fins still, but beautiful colours. None of the other "females" in the tank display this sort of colour, especially the patterns in the dorsal and anal fins. Will all females eventually develop this kind of colouration too?










No updates on the red princess as they like to hang out near the back. There is one that is obviously larger than the rest, but that's about it. The Altolamprologus are still not colouring up very well. I'm still tempted to add more Cyprichromis, but we'll have to see what is available when the next stocklist comes.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

still open as to whether that is a male or female for me. I did mean anal fin, not ventrals.

Note the rounded anal fin that doesn't extend very far back on the body of the fish.










Compared to a male, who's anal fin is pointed and extends beyond the base of the tail

:



A female featherfin will never have the pointed tail that extends beyond the base of the tail (at least any that I have ever seen).


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

No idea why the male pic didn't load. I'll try another.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Ah OK thanks! So technically, even the alpha isn't 100% sure to be male as he still lacks that pointed anal fin?


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

His tail looks pointy to me bud. 👍


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

illumnae said:


> Ah OK thanks! So technically, even the alpha isn't 100% sure to be male as he still lacks that pointed anal fin?


I think you're misinterpreting the term 'pointed,' even though the anal fins do get pretty 'pointy' at maturity. For the present, I would suggest the term 'elongated;' for example, this-








Versus this-








​Both of these are just cropped images of your pics, the male above and the presumptive female below. Only time will tell, but for now I'm pretty confident the upper fish is a male, but the lower fish could be either a female or an immature male.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

Thank you both! I think I understand better now.

Will all females develop the nice colouration in the fins eventually?


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

illumnae said:


> Thank you both! I think I understand better now.
> 
> Will all females develop the nice colouration in the fins eventually?


I'm not sure how much color variation exists amongst _Cyathopharynx_ females, but in _Ophthalmotilapia_ female coloration varies substantially. For example, some _O. nasuta_ Kipili 'Gold' females are just silver fishes with hints of gold highlights, whereas others have lots of gold pigment, at least as much as young males.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

OK thanks, I'll wait and see!

In the meantime I think I spoke too soon, the 2nd male has dug his nest on the far left. The nests of the 2 males are really close, only separated by a rock. The entire right half of the tank is unclaimed by any of the Cyathopharynx.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

The 2 confirmed males are getting more and more beautiful by the day.


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

illumnae said:


> OK thanks, I'll wait and see!
> 
> In the meantime I think I spoke too soon, the 2nd male has dug his nest on the far left. The nests of the 2 males are really close, only separated by a rock. The entire right half of the tank is unclaimed by any of the Cyathopharynx.


In the wild, _Cyathopharynx_ males build nests whose edges are juxtaposed, so that the entire bottom is confluent with nests. As females generally visit multiple nests whilst spawning, and carry multipaternal broods, evolutionary pressure favors males with nests close to one another so as to maximize access to receptive females. Males who are 'loners' have less reproductive success, and are subject to negative selection over evolutionary time. Thus the behaviours you are seeing.


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## Guppy Named Oscar (3 mo ago)

Sir Keith, how do you know this stuff?? I tend to learn as much as I can about my hobbies and interests, and maybe I'm just impatient with this learning curve, but it feels like I'm either finding blog-quality garbage, books that do a superficial survey of too many species at once, or else way TOO specific journal studies comparing two quantities of garlic in catfish feed for effect on weight gain, lol. 
Can you suggest some resources that go deeper about behavior and environment but are still accessible to someone who doesn't yet have a ton of context to hang it on? I'm trying to set up some "beginner" Malawi cichlids.


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

Guppy Named Oscar said:


> Sir Keith, how do you know this stuff?? I tend to learn as much as I can about my hobbies and interests, and maybe I'm just impatient with this learning curve, but it feels like I'm either finding blog-quality garbage, books that do a superficial survey of too many species at once, or else way TOO specific journal studies comparing two quantities of garlic in catfish feed for effect on weight gain, lol.
> Can you suggest some resources that go deeper about behavior and environment but are still accessible to someone who doesn't yet have a ton of context to hang it on? I'm trying to set up some "beginner" Malawi cichlids.


Well, I've been keeping cichlids for more than 50 years, and have picked up a few things along the way!  Also, I am a biologist, with a background in molecular genetics, so I am keenly interested in the lessons that the cichlid fishes of Africa's Great Rift Lakes can teach us about evolutionary biology.

I understand your frustration in trying to learn about these fishes, but I would suggest that an excellent way to learn is to start out with books by well-known authorities in the field. One excellent source is Ad Konings, who has written many informative books on both Tanganyika and Malawi cichlids. Once you get into it a bit, you will discover for yourself that there are many other sources of information. A local fish club can also be an important resource, and a way to meet other serious, well-informed hobbyists.

Most of the things you will find online are just individuals' opinions, not established facts. Take these with a grain of salt. And most of all, be patient and have fun! Good luck.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I agree with OP...I have many of Ad Konings books and will likely buy any future ones. But his writings are more about the fish in the wild. IMO there is a derth of information on African Rift Lake cichlid behavior in the aquarium.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

I agree that it's hard to find information online about this area of the hobby. Coming from the South American Cichlid side of the hobby, there's tons of information online and many specialist forums dedicated to even specific types of such fish (e.g. Angelfish forum finarama, several discus forums like simply discus, etc.). It was easy to research on the types of fish that I used to keep. For African cichlids, I'm really relying on the expert advice of sir_keith, DJRansome and others on this forum and I'm really thankful for their guidance or I'd definitely be much more lost in keeping these fish!


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

sir_keith said:


> In the wild, _Cyathopharynx_ males build nests whose edges are juxtaposed, so that the entire bottom is confluent with nests. As females generally visit multiple nests whilst spawning, and carry multipaternal broods, evolutionary pressure favors males with nests close to one another so as to maximize access to receptive females. Males who are 'loners' have less reproductive success, and are subject to negative selection over evolutionary time. Thus the behaviours you are seeing.


This definitely corresponds with what I'm observing in my tank! I'm still waiting for male #3 to show himself as I ordered 3 males and so far only 2 confirmed males have appeared.


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

illumnae said:


> This definitely corresponds with what I'm observing in my tank! I'm still waiting for male #3 to show himself as I ordered 3 males and so far only 2 confirmed males have appeared.


Pretty cool, huh? This is one reason that these fishes are so fascinating.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

sir_keith said:


> Pretty cool, huh? This is one reason that these fishes are so fascinating.


I'm also having fun watching the Enantiopus kilesa duking it out amongst themselves, and my wife has fun finding the pretty fish to photograph. The nice photos I've been posting have been from her


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

illumnae said:


> I'm also having fun watching the Enantiopus kilesa duking it out amongst themselves, and my wife has fun finding the pretty fish to photograph. The nice photos I've been posting have been from her


I love _E. kilesa_: all that action, no damage.


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

It's been over three months since I first posted here asking for advice. Now sitting here in my recliner in front of my tank typing this, I'm so glad that I did. For the first time since I set up this large tank 2 years ago, the tank looks and feels alive. I thought that with a large tank I needed large fish only, and I've always been a sucker for bright colours, but the amount of movement and energy in the tank more than makes up for it. The colours are not Malawi, marine or even South American bright, but they are there for sure. 

The tricolor cyps are amazing especially with their bright yellow heads, lavender bodies and neon blue edge to their fins.

The advice to go with featherfins as my main feature fish was just pure genius. I love how the makes are developing, and it's great fun to watch them. The fat guy is still the alpha and he's the deepest coloured most of the time. The second guy always has his blues and yellows, but he's not as deeply coloured and the markings on his dorsal are not as stark. I think I have a 3rd male developing but he's the least coloured up of the lot. I think he's male because of how his ventral and anal fins are developing and he's defending a territory like the other 2 (no nest yet though), but his colour at times is more muted than even the pretty female that I posted before (who by the way still looks the same as before). Is this how they are supposed to be - colour based on hierarchy? Or will all males eventually colour up the same? I really can't wait for them to grow to their 8" max size.... they'll be absolutely majestic! 

Nothing much more to say about the Kilesa that I haven't already said. I love the sand dunes, and I love the sparring that goes on all day long.

My only complaints would really be that I still feel the tank looks too empty. The supplier ran out of the microlepidotus Bulu Point, and I've only added 11 more tricolors (total 35 tricolor, 24 bulu point) and the tank just looks like it needs more at the top. The bottom is really well filled. It doesn't help that all the cyps love to hang out at the top left side of the tank, so the top right just looks consistently empty. I really hope to be able to top up more cyps over time, but I want to keep the numbers of both types fairly balanced. My gut feel is 50 of each for a total of 100 would be perfect. I also hope to see more of the Red Princess. They are definitely more shy, and they don't seem to school together as much as they used to so they are pretty much scattered around the harder to see areas. They like to hang out in a cave on the sand formed by the 3d background as well as on the ledges of the 3d background. The latter surprised me as I thought they were sandsifters, but they seem equally happy hanging out on the rock ledges.

I can't imagine that I almost went with a frontosa tank. I think I would have been bored pretty quickly.


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

I am happy to hear that you are enjoying your big tank now that it is stocked with Tanganyikans. I thought this setup would be awesome with the current stock list, but then, I'm already a huge fan of these fishes. There is just so much interesting biology that happens in an appropriately set up Tanganyikan tank; it is almost endlessly fascinating. I really liked the way you described it when you said that '_the tank looks and feels alive_.' Just so.

With featherfins, male colouration often reflects their position in the social hierarchy, so it is possible that some males may be more colorful than others. That said, it is not unusual to have multiple co-dominant males in a single large tank, and I expect you will have several fully coloured males eventually. That's how the lek mating system works in the wild, after all. It will be interesting to see how this plays out as your fishes grow and mature.

As you've discovered, _Enantiopus_ are just wonderful fishes, and endlessly entertaining. I've had _E. kilesa_ for a while, but recently acquired a group of young _E. melanogenys_, and am looking forward to watching the colony develop. I will be keeping them with _Cyprichromis leptosoma_ mpimbwe, so they will have the entire tank bottom to themselves.

Speaking of _Cyprichromis_, that's going to be one amazing colony of Cyps you are contemplating! It is a bit odd that they are not utilizing all the space in your tank; my only guess might be that they prefer the (gentler?) water flow on the left side of the tank.

I can't offer any advice on the _Xenotilapia nigrolabiata_ Red Princess, as I have never kept them. What I can say is that I find _Xenotilapia_ as a group to be endlessly mystifying, because this very diverse group of fishes often behaves in unexpected ways. So don't believe everything you read.

Again, glad this is working out, and yes, if you wanted a tank with lots of '_movement and energy_,' _C. frontosa_ would have been exactly the wrong way to go!


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## illumnae (6 mo ago)

How's everyone? It's been awhile! 

I've added to the Cyprichromis numbers to get 55 of each species, and with some random deaths here and there from shipping I'm close to 100. With the increased numbers they are no longer congregating only at the left side of the tank and finally my tank looks decently full enough not to have to add anymore Cyprichromis in the near future. Based on my preferences I would actually like 30-50 more of them, but they're not full sized yet so I'll let them grow some more and see how I feel about it mid next year. Oh, I also saw one of the Cyprichromis holding eggs (bulging jaw), but it was back to normal after a few days so I guess it swallowed the eggs?

Here's the featherfin nest that's in my tank:










You may not be able to tell from the picture, but it's about 30 inches across and 6-8 inches tall. Rather than dig downwards to the bottom glass, the alpha male is building it upwards like a hill.

The male featherfins are showing some rather interesting behaviour. So that nest location was identified by the first male to colour up (the fat one) and he was the dominant male in the tank for quite awhile. However over time, the second male to colour up started to challenge him and occasionally won and took over the nest that the first male built. The second male started to win more and more often and he's now the undisputed alpha male of the tank and he has now taken over the nest entirely and he's the one that has built it up into a hill. Every now and then he may get chased out by the fat one who then guards the nest for awhile, but he never lasts more than a couple of hours.

In the meantime while the top 2 males were disputing, the 3rd male was biding his time alone at the other side of the tank and now he has grown and coloured up and claimed the right side of the tank as his domain. So now the fat one has gone from being the dominant guy to being the lowest in pecking order amongst the 3 males. When he's chased out of the big nest, he hangs out midwater away from the substrate where the other 2 males are. The new #2 hasn't really started building a nest yet though. I see a slight depression in the sand today, and he has a split dorsal similar to the type of damage I see when the other 2 fight, so I think he may be just starting to build his nest (and probably got harassed by the fat one when doing so). The split fins heal fast though. All 3 males are now spectacular in colour and fin patterns, though the new #2 still has some ways to go in terms of fin patterns.

The yellowish one I posted previously is, I think, a male as it has developed a pointed anal fin, and its ventral fins are very long with the bright egg spots at the tips. Do females get that? However what is really strange is its colour. It is just really yellow all over, without any of the blue and dark colour that the other males (and all pictures/videos I have seen of jy furcifer variant). All my other males are blue/black with yellow markings but this guy is just yellow. I'll try to get an updated picture, but I'm wondering if I got a wrong species or variant for the colour to be so different. 

Finally, I'm getting some inexplicable losses to my Enantiopus kilesa. I've had 2 corpses just appear for no reason. I'm suspecting aggression from the featherfins as I've also noticed that the Xenotilapia nigrolabiata Red Princess have moved into the crevices in the 3d background rather than stay on the sand. With male #2 starting to build his nest also, maybe the kilesa are getting crowded out and killed by the featherfins when they try to encroach in their territories? 

To date, I still haven't added any julidochromis into the tank. Do you think I can add a group in over Christmas? I have my eye on Julidochromis marlieri Magara. How many can I add here?


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