# Petsmart- Red texas or flowerhorn?



## dScooby

I bought it as a red texas, but after some reading.. I found some threads on MonsterFishKeeper and some reported that they might have been a mix up. I looked up Kamfa flowerhorns and they look very similiar to my fish, but I couldn't find any juvenile red texas pictures 

Description and price tag:









When I first received him, I apologize for the poor quality pictures and him being in the bag still. 





































Thanks :thumb:


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## noki

It looks like a "Flowerhorn", which are selected hybrids. I suppose you got a "deal" since they are a lot more expensive, thou I never understand what is special about them. Maybe if you are lucky you it will grow up deformed and have spots on the side that you can pretend are meaningful symbols.


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## dScooby

noki said:


> It looks like a "Flowerhorn", which are selected hybrids. I suppose you got a "deal" since they are a lot more expensive, thou I never understand what is special about them. Maybe if you are lucky you it will grow up deformed and have spots on the side that you can pretend are meaningful symbols.


LOL, imagine deformed with spots on the side would be awesome! :dancing:

Thanks! :thumb:


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## 24Tropheus

"Red Texas Cichlid Price
The prices of red Texas cichlid differs greatly and can be everything from 10$ to 1000$+. There are two main reasons for the large price span. The first and less important one is that these fish still are quite rare and the store therefore can charge they price they want for them. The other more important reason is that the quality of fish in different price ranges. Only very few fish grows to very red show specimens while most specimens turn out to be of much lower quality. High quality specimens are very rare and as such expensive. Buying red Texas cichlids as fry are somewhat of a gamble since only a very low number of them will grow out to be really red. Most fish will never develop the red or will have a large number of black spots on their body making them more black than red."

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/cichlid/texas.php

Your going to have to be real lucky to get anything good from a Petsmart deal. :wink:


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## 24Tropheus

Oh and do thhey come from South America?  opcorn:


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## Azedenkae

No. They don't come from South America. Or at least, they're not 'South American Cichlids'.

Now, let's get some facts straight. 

Firstly, fish are only as valuable as the amount of attention and love people gives them. Flowerhorns are expensive because in Asia they're a symbol of luck, and also, for less 'wait what?' reasons, they also tend to be rather pretty, with their coloration and flowerline and nuchal hump and all that, hence why they're more expensive - even if there's no superstition attributed to them. For any fish, there will be people interested in them, and people who don't. People who don't will see no value in them, people who do will, and the more people do, the more valuable they are. For example, I personally think most African cichlids are butt ugly, so I won't ever buy one of them unless I dunno, they're like 50 cents each and I need something for my Americans to beat up.

Next up, red texans are hybrids of a texan (Herichthys cyanoguttatum) or a green texan (H. carpintis) with some other cichlid. After the discovery of H. cyanos/carps, people eventually decided that besides the green and blue coloration, they also want red. So they started hybridizing with the intention of producing a fish that has the pearlings of a Cyano/Carp, but with red coloration instead of green or blue. Different breeding programs were started, and produced many varying 'red texans'. Some are barely red and can barely called 'red texas', others are a lot redder, comparable to a green or blue Cyano/Carp. Eventually, people bred super red varieties, which are extremely red, comparable to the naturally occuring super green texans (commonly H. carpintis var. Escondido). Given that red is the point of the hybridization project, the obvious candidate for a mate is a flowerhorn, because many flowerhorns are very nicely red-colored. That's where the flowerline on many red texans come from. But because flowerhorns are hybrids anyways, and any further specimen produced from a flowerhorn x would count as a flowerhorn anyways, the red texans bred from flowerhorns are also flowerhorns themselves. =O And that's where this comes from. The petsmart 'red texans' are probably failed attempts at producing proper 'red texans'. So they're flowerhorns. And yeah.

There are though, a lot of 'DIY' red texans that involve Cyano/Carp x other cichlids besides flowerhorns, so not all red texans have flowerhorn blood (and therefore don't have the flowerline that flowerhorns have).

Conclusion:
1.) Red texans are hybrids of either H. cyannoguttatum or H. carpintis with other Central American cichlids, that has a red coloration and pearlings.
2.) Most red texans (especially commercially bred ones) are also in fact flowerhorns.
3.) Because they're hybrids, they have different grades. I personally won't call anything a 'red texas' unless they have pearlings and have a red coloration comparable at least to an average green texas.

 Jesus I don't think I've ever wrote 'flower' so many times before.

P.S. 'Blue texas' is actually a similar term to 'red texas', as it refers to any 'texas' that is blue. Because it's natural for both Cyanos and Carps to adopt a blue coloration (especially Carps, they can alternate between blue and green at will), they are both assigned the name 'blue texas' by different people. So if you see something labeled as 'blue texas' at a LFS or whatever, make sure you know whether they're Cyano, Carp, or a hybrid. Because Cyanos and Carps are different species, different growth rates, different care required, different shapes, etc. etc.

P.P.S. You also don't find pics for red texans because they're so vastly different.  And that many times you don't know something is a red tex until it's grown quite a bit.


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## stayfrosty

Fish should remain pure imo


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## Azedenkae

I disagree. There's nothing inherently wrong with hybrids. All problems associated with hybrids are found with purebreeds, bar the higher chance of infertility.


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## stayfrosty

There are already alot of beautiful fish that are natrual why make fish that aren't. I don't like american cichlids all that much but I would much rather have a tank full of pure American cichlids over a "show flower horn" if there is such a thing. Its a Shame flower horns are fertile


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## Azedenkae

Why selective breed for different traits to create new strains, or capture new species to introduce more variety? Same reason, to increase the diversity of fish in the industry. If you would like a tank full of pure americans or (since you dont really like americans) some other fish then go ahead, no one's stopping you.


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## 24Tropheus

Azedenkae said:


> I disagree. There's nothing inherently wrong with hybrids. All problems associated with hybrids are found with purebreeds, bar the higher chance of infertility.


Erm there is also the prob highlighted by this ID request.
Many folk buy em not knowing what to expect. Partly because the names cover a wide variety of different hybrids and the labels are missleading as they do not include the info that they are hybrids.

Nothing against hybrids sold as hybrids. I dont want em but see no reason why others who want em should not have em. Just wish they were labeled better.

All the best James


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## noki

Azedenkae said:


> Why selective breed for different traits to create new strains, or capture new species to introduce more variety? Same reason, to increase the diversity of fish in the industry. If you would like a tank full of pure americans or (since you dont really like americans) some other fish then go ahead, no one's stopping you.


The problem is that hybrids actually reduce the diversity of fish in the industry. Instead of having literally hundreds of distinct species that are examples of fish that have evolved in nature to choose from, you end of with a few vague hybrids which only have aesthetic value based on how one specific individual happens to look. Hybrids have not increased the diversity of cichlids to choose from in the hobby, nor have there be produced much improved bred cichlids to choose from over the last 50 years. Unfortunately hybrids will become the norm in the future as most natural tropical habitats either become changed or ruined by human activity, or by invasive species, it is sadly inevitable.


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## Azedenkae

24Tropheus said:


> Azedenkae said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. There's nothing inherently wrong with hybrids. All problems associated with hybrids are found with purebreeds, bar the higher chance of infertility.
> 
> 
> 
> Erm there is also the prob highlighted by this ID request.
> Many folk buy em not knowing what to expect. Partly because the names cover a wide variety of different hybrids and the labels are missleading as they do not include the info that they are hybrids.
> 
> Nothing against hybrids sold as hybrids. I dont want em but see no reason why others who want em should not have em. Just wish they were labeled better.
> 
> All the best James
Click to expand...

Again, the problem is also associated with purebreeds - there's plenty of examples of mislabeled/unknown purebreeds as well. I do wish that hybrids were labeled better as well, but I also wish purebreeds were labeled better. Basically, I wish ALL fish were labeled well, because the problem is associated with ALL fish. Nothing to do with hybrids specifically. The other day I was asked as to why someone's texas had irregular pearlings, and said someone almost cried when I told her she was sold the wrong species, and that it was a green texas (H. carpintis) rather than a 'normal' texas (H. cyanoguttatum). Why anyone would want a cyano over a carp beats me, but hey. But yeah it's a common problem associated with all fish. )



noki said:


> Azedenkae said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why selective breed for different traits to create new strains, or capture new species to introduce more variety? Same reason, to increase the diversity of fish in the industry. If you would like a tank full of pure americans or (since you dont really like americans) some other fish then go ahead, no one's stopping you.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that hybrids actually reduce the diversity of fish in the industry. Instead of having literally hundreds of distinct species that are examples of fish that have evolved in nature to choose from, you end of with a few vague hybrids which only have aesthetic value based on how one specific individual happens to look. Hybrids have not increased the diversity of cichlids to choose from in the hobby, nor have there be produced much improved bred cichlids to choose from over the last 50 years. Unfortunately hybrids will become the norm in the future as most natural tropical habitats either become changed or ruined by human activity, or by invasive species, it is sadly inevitable.
Click to expand...

I really don't see how introducing more strains reduces the diversity of fish in the industry. Much as with newfound species of fish introduced, the old species doesn't suddenly just disappear... flowerhorns, red texans, blood parrots and firecons are some of the more popular hybrids in the industry, but you don't suddenly see Amphilophus species, Herichthys species and Amatitlania species disappear from the hobby... they're still there, and still wanted. So yeah... no, disagreeing with the 'hybrids reduce diversity'. Hybrids have increased the diversity of cichlids to choose from.

Also, is there any evidence that hybrids reduced the amount of 'improved bred cichlids'? To be honest all fish captured and introduced into the hobby has pretty much all of their morphs discovered in a relatively short time, and most of the commonly sold cichlids (and their morphs) were introduced a long time ago, so it's only natural that you don't see more morphs and stuff recently.


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## metricliman

Guys, this thread is only asking for the ID, not an argument.


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## Azedenkae

True and fair enough. I am only responding to comments that don't belong here so if everyone else ceases their posts that don't belong, I will too.


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## BC in SK

metricliman said:


> Guys, this thread is only asking for the ID, not an argument.


You have your ID now, so why do you care? Other people read this thread,so why should you care that this thread now has another life as a conversation/arguement about hybirdization?

Hybrid CA. Maybe it's siblings are a super red texas :lol: maybe it's a flowerhorn, mixed up, or because it's ancestory is primarily so. Call it a kanfa, if you like :lol:


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## BC in SK

Azedenkae said:


> it's a common problem associated with all fish. )


Yes, identification is a problem in the aquarium hobby. Hybrids really make the problem 100x worse. If you think it is just a question of lableing then you are being just plain silly. Somebody has to identify them; very easy to mix up fish when somebody/some outfit has 1000's of gallons. I know that the LFS knew less then I did as a 10 year old kid, 30 some years back, when it comes to identifying cichlids......and are pretty much the same today!

From my perspective, the absolute worst thing today, at the LFS, is the mixed African tank :x :x Should not be such a thing! I purchased from that tank, thinking they were kenyi.....not even knowing it wasthe mixed African tank, as the cards are sliding and right beside each other.


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## Azedenkae

Erm, the opposite can also be said for purebreeds? Adding more species also just make the problem 100x worse, as new found species can look very similar to current species available. Don't see why hybrids should take all the blame. Removing hybrids would help, but so would be removing all purebreeds so... yeah. And it is a question of labeling - because if people know what it is, then they should label it. Otherwise they shouldn't sell it, or make sure to inform the buyer that they have no idea what it is they're selling. If LFSes take in fish and just randomly chuck everything in a tank, then they're irresponsible, aren't they? Most LFSes around my area are responsible enough to split up the tanks and only mix species that they can easily identify/separate, even Africans.

The 'mixed African tank' problem is a huge problem because there's just so many different breeds of Africans out there - you're right. But yes, it is a problem with the entire industry, and that's all I'm saying. It's an issue with the industry, not with hybrids in particular, so I don't see why hybrids are copping all the blame.


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## Storiwyr

I think it should also be noted that most hybrids come from the land of "I didn't know what the heck I was doing when I stocked my tank", and such hybrids tend to be drab in comparison to the purebred parents and thus undesirable. I honestly don't have a problem with a BREEDING PROGRAM where species are intentionally mixed with a goal in mind. But it would be silly to suggest that all hybrids meet that parameter. I personally think Flowerhorns are hideous, but I don't have an issue with them. I just think people with no intent to create a new line in a responsible way, but who still intend to distribute or save fry should stick to purebreeds.


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## Azedenkae

Then what about purebreeds? Randomly mixing purebreeds could also produce very drab fry, or even worse. In Australia for example, Thorichthys elliotis commonly have a deformed spine and only if one knows the Ellioti's parentage would one know the probable amount of non-deformed fries produced. Randomly putting two Elliotis together without knowing where they're from could result in a huge amount of fries having deformities. Should that mean that Australians shouldn't keep Elliotis then, unless they're specifically trying to breed deformities out of them? Convicts are often randomly obtained by people and tend to produce drab offsprings as well.

I don't suggest that all hybrids meet the 'parameter', but the same goes with purebreeds. Many people who buy a bunch of firemouths or trimacs or whatever will just toss them all together in a single tank and they will eventually breed - or they may toss them together and they will crossbreed. Either way, there's a chance that it's all lame looking fries, or there may be good ones in there. Either way, whatever the issue, it is associated will all cichlids, not just hybrids specifically or purebreeds specifically - so really there's no reason to gripe at hybrids specifically. In fact, many keepers of flowerhorns are just that - keepers, they prefer to purchase the flowerhorns than breed them. In the Asian community in particular, flowerhorns are considered a symbol of luck, and many rich people keep them - feed them and stuff, but won't care at all about breeding them. Purebreeds however are often bought in larger numbers, especially by new fish keepers, with the hope of breeding and eventually obtaining plenty of the fish.

Whatever the case, it's an issue with the fish industry as a whole. And if it's gonna be solved, it'll be with the whole fish industry as a whole. Removing hybrids or purebreeds out of the market won't solve anything. Neither does sticking to one or another, or placing special regulations on one and not the other.


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## Storiwyr

Did I say it couldn't happen in purebreeds? This is rapidly becoming a case of "protesting too much." You should not keep a pet without knowledge on how to take care of it. That includes its breeding behavior. If you are going to produce hybrids, you should be aware of that going into it, and know that you will have a harder time selling/distributing them. If you are breeding a species with issues like you described, you should be aware of them going into it. There is nothing wrong with wanting to keep nothing but pure species, and if someone wants hybrids, more power to them. But given most people do not, unless you are intending to use them as feeders or cull them all, you should not be producing a ton of baby fish and then crying that you can't find anyone who wants them unless you lie about what the are. People stocking tanks without knowing any better, or trying to rehome hybrids are two reasons why mixed African tanks exist and will continue to exist. Don't produce fish no one wants and then act surprised when no one wants them. If you can produce hybrids people WANT, more power to you. That is the case with the Flowerhorn. I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me that I am being unreasonable for not wanting to own a hybrid Cichlid. I am doing the hobby for my own pleasure and enjoyment, and can favor the fish I want. The general feeling among cichlid keepers is that they want purebreeds, it would be irresponsible to go around telling newcomers to the hobby that they can mix whichever fish they want, if they intend to try and keep babies from them. If they want to save all babies, they will eventually get overstocked and then need to rehome, and not be able to do so responsibly. If you want to make hybrids and save fry indefinitely, get Mollies or something.


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## 24Tropheus

I used to feel that way too Storiwyr.
Sadly its way too late for such feelings to have any effect. 

All the best James


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## Storiwyr

I don't wish to be unfair about not knowing what you're doing at the beginning. I've said many times that fishkeeping seems deceptively simple, and you really don't know how much you don't know until you're already in trouble. But if someone turns out here asking what to do with a fishtank full of fish and they've got a whacky mix that will produce hybrids, it would be dishonest of us not to make sure that they KNOW what the market is for hybrids (essentially nonexistent). And it is NOT bad advice to tell a newcomer to the hobby to avoid hybridization if they want to keep fry. If you want to keep fry, you need to have something to do with them. You can't keep them all forever. And just because you already have your two or three pretty hybrids, doesn't mean they'll magically stop breeding if you don't do something to stop them. Regardless of the species you keep, or whether you're allowing them or intentionally having them hybridize, it is RESPONSIBLE to know what you'll do with extras. Dumping them on a fish store if they're not going to sell is not a good option, and the fishstore may stop taking them too if they can't sell them.


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## m1ke715m

no1 should buy fish at petco, petsmart or petland.. local fish stores in general for that matter.. theres very very few local fish stores that have any clue what they are doing


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## 24Tropheus

Not the only ones not knowing what they are doing. You seen the pic of supposedly Trimac on wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimac_cichlid. Clearly flowerhorn. This miss Iding is all over the place. 
Simple fact is I do not think it can be mistakes. I think it must be deliberate misselling/fraud.


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## Azedenkae

Storiwyr said:


> Did I say it couldn't happen in purebreeds? This is rapidly becoming a case of "protesting too much." You should not keep a pet without knowledge on how to take care of it. That includes its breeding behavior. If you are going to produce hybrids, you should be aware of that going into it, and know that you will have a harder time selling/distributing them. If you are breeding a species with issues like you described, you should be aware of them going into it. There is nothing wrong with wanting to keep nothing but pure species, and if someone wants hybrids, more power to them. But given most people do not, unless you are intending to use them as feeders or cull them all, you should not be producing a ton of baby fish and then crying that you can't find anyone who wants them unless you lie about what the are. People stocking tanks without knowing any better, or trying to rehome hybrids are two reasons why mixed African tanks exist and will continue to exist. Don't produce fish no one wants and then act surprised when no one wants them. If you can produce hybrids people WANT, more power to you. That is the case with the Flowerhorn. I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me that I am being unreasonable for not wanting to own a hybrid Cichlid. I am doing the hobby for my own pleasure and enjoyment, and can favor the fish I want. The general feeling among cichlid keepers is that they want purebreeds, it would be irresponsible to go around telling newcomers to the hobby that they can mix whichever fish they want, if they intend to try and keep babies from them. If they want to save all babies, they will eventually get overstocked and then need to rehome, and not be able to do so responsibly. If you want to make hybrids and save fry indefinitely, get Mollies or something.





Storiwyr said:


> I don't wish to be unfair about not knowing what you're doing at the beginning. I've said many times that fishkeeping seems deceptively simple, and you really don't know how much you don't know until you're already in trouble. But if someone turns out here asking what to do with a fishtank full of fish and they've got a whacky mix that will produce hybrids, it would be dishonest of us not to make sure that they KNOW what the market is for hybrids (essentially nonexistent). And it is NOT bad advice to tell a newcomer to the hobby to avoid hybridization if they want to keep fry. If you want to keep fry, you need to have something to do with them. You can't keep them all forever. And just because you already have your two or three pretty hybrids, doesn't mean they'll magically stop breeding if you don't do something to stop them. Regardless of the species you keep, or whether you're allowing them or intentionally having them hybridize, it is RESPONSIBLE to know what you'll do with extras. Dumping them on a fish store if they're not going to sell is not a good option, and the fishstore may stop taking them too if they can't sell them.


I am not telling you to suddenly want to keep hybrids, never said that. All I'm saying is that the issues you raised applies to both purebreeds and hybrids. And yes, you're right, it may all about researching the breeding issues/info related to whatever fish one wants to keep, but it's the same with say flowerhorns as it is with jack dempseys. And in cases where there's little to no info, then one needs to be prepared for a surprise.

I am entirely fine with you not wanting to keep hybrids, but I am not with your issue with other people wanting to keep hybrids. If there's no necessity for a breeding program when one keeps purebreeds, then why does it matter for hybrids - is what I was getting at with my first reply. You're in this hobby for your own pleasure and enjoyment, and so am I, and I'm sure so are many people out there. So I don't see why one shouldn't keep hybrids just because they want to - or rather, for reasons that is not applicable to purebreeds.

Many purebreed fries are practically worthless as well. I've seen plenty of purebreed fries be on the market for months and not get sold at all. And I disagree that there's no(n-existent) market for hybrids. Again, flowerhorns, blood parrots, red texans, firecons, heaps and heaps of people want them. That's not non-existent, or even small. That's a decent size of the market. Of course not all hybrids are wanted, but the same goes for purebreeds. There are plenty out there that doesn't seem to have a name for themselves at all - , and then there are those that are immensely popular.

And yes, hybrids won't magically stop reproducing - but neither do purebreeds. Super green texans for example, are amazing looking. But they breed a lot. And here in Australia, it's gotten to the point where they're practically worthless due to them being so common. Nobody really wants more, because everybody who wants one already has a few. So again, issue with both hybrids and purebreeds.

So in conclusion, all I'm saying that issues associated with purebreeds are also associated with hybrids - lack of research before keeping, bad labeling, lack of keeping strategies, etc. etc. - and so these issues are issues with all fish, not just hybrids or purebreeds. If you want to keep just hybrids, that's fine. If you want to keep just purebreeds, fine. If you want to keep both, fine. Just I don't see why there are issues associated with one and not the other, when it's clearly applicable to both.


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## noki

Yes, a majority of the cichlids for sale in the mass market stores are either poorly bred, or inbred, or just plain kinda crappy. So, in your opinion, might as well have hybrids then, since hybrids are better since they are better than plain natural. What is popular with the beginner hobbyist makes these hybrids more valuable, because they sell better at the grocery store. Red Oscars must be more valuable than plain wild fish too since kids buy them to put in their 10 gallon tanks. Yes, this is all subjective, depending on what you put the value on. If you mean hybrids are more valuable for selling to make money, yes they probably are more profitable, or at least in the short term.

There will always be freak fish for sale like frankenfish Blood Parrots. They sell. But some hobbyists would like other choices as they learn more about the fish they keep, and they don't want the natural species to disappear and all hobbyists will have then are hybrids or severely inbred fish.


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## Azedenkae

No, my opinion is not to just have hybrids. Did not say they are better than plain natural. I am saying hybrids and purebreeds have the same issues associated with them, and have the same variabilities. There are 'good' ones, there are 'bad' ones. Some hybrids are more common than other hybrids, and the same goes for purebreeds. Though yes actually, it's not unnatural for flowerhorns to go for heaps and heaps of money, sometimes in the grands whilst purebreds rarely reach that point.

Either way I agree that (most actually) hobbyists would prefer variety when it comes to their choice of fish. I think that regardless of what happens, there will always been purebreds and hybrids to choose from, with different strains of each as well. And I think that the addition of new wild-caught species, new selectively bred fish, new hybrids will just diversify the choices more and get more people to be interested - it would all complement each other, not cancel each other out. I mean I definitely think of myself as someone who wants variety, and I keep both purebreds and hybrids.  I love them all.


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## Storiwyr

You're seeing something that isn't there, Aze. I never said that I have a problem with people wanting to keep hybrids. I actually said I did NOT, multiple times. I said that the overall market for them is bad, so anyone keeping hybrids should be aware that unless they want to lie about what they're selling--which I hope we all agree is wrong/unethical--they will have a bunch of fry that no one will want. This site does a lot of educating of new fish keepers. We should be honest with them about the risks of allowing hybridization if they intend to try and save all their fry. The issue is the market, and the only way the market will change is if people suddenly want to buy hybrids. Ergo, we shouldn't go around lying to new people and telling the that hybrids are just as good purebred and you should breed up a million and sell them! The market doesn't want them. I really don't think that's going to change, either. The only hybrids that will be purchased are those that are intentional strains (like the Flowerhorn or Blood Parrot) which didn't just happen by accident, or the one in a million that happens to be gorgeous. I've seen gorgeous hybrids, but I've also seen a lot of muddy boring looking hybrid Mbuna.

Of COURSE there are exceptions. But you shouldn't live by or bank on exceptions being the rule, and it would be dishonest of us to tell someone to have at it because they might get the OCCASIONAL exceptional hybrid. It is irresponsible to breed a ton of hybrid fry, save them all and grow them out, then dump any you don't want on a fish store. They probably won't sell. If some do, then great, but most won't. Whereas if you take a really attractive batch of pure fry to an LFS, they're probably going to sell quickly to people who are experienced in the hobby. Yes, it is also irresponsible to breed and grow out PURE fry no one wants ... but it's a heck of a lot less likely to happen. If you continue to breed Super Green Texans in Australia, for example, and you grow them out rather than using them as feeders or something, and you dump them on a fish store and demand that they be sold as pets rather than feeders then you're every bit as irresponsible as someone breeding hybrids. But again, you're using an exception to try and change a rule. The world doesn't work that way.


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## Azedenkae

Look, all I'm saying is that the issues applicable to hybrids is also applicable to purebreds. That is it. Though.



Storiwyr said:


> I just think people with no intent to create a new line in a responsible way, but who still intend to distribute or save fry should stick to purebreeds.


I'm sorry but I see that as you having problem with certain people wanting to keep hybrids. I am saying that if these people are allowed to keep purebreds, they should be able to keep hybrids as well, because the same issues apply to both. That's all I'm saying. Same issue, applies to hybrids and purebreds.

Now, I don't get why you keep on saying that there's no market for hybrids? You say yourself that hybrids like flowerhorns and blood parrots are purchased - that doesn't mean there's no market for them. That actually means that there is a market for them. And since they're hybrids, that means that there is a market for hybrids. And since it's not just flowerhorns and blood parrots, but also red texans, firecons and more - midevils for example, pops up as something people'd readily buy, or H. carpintis x cyanoggutatum. HRP x Convicts are also there, amongst others. And they are wanted. So I don't see how there's no market for them - or even a small market for them.

I can't fathom why you keep on saying that the market doesn't want them, when they do. Not everyone, such as yourself, would want one, but that doesn't mean that 'the market' doesn't. Just as I honestly dislike Lake Africans and probably would never buy one, doesn't mean that 'the market' doesn't want Lake Africans.

Being honest is fine, and the fact is being honest. Yes, chances are you will have way too much fry to know what to do with them, and will have a problem selling them off. Super Green Texans is ONE example, I didn't give that example as an exception to the rule - I gave it as an example OF the rule. What else are common and never get sold well? Rainbow Cichlids, Red Bay Snooks, Nicaraguan Parrots, Elliotis, Blue Eyed Cichlids to name a few other Central American examples. Cichlids in general? Discus, Venustus, electric yellows, red zebras, blue dolphins - to name a few other common examples.

And yes, I agree that it's irresponsible to breed and grow out fries and then force them onto other people, lying during the process. And all that. I agree. Just that it applies to both purebreds and hybrids. That's all I'm saying. Someone wants to keep purebreds? Cool. Someone want to keep hybrids? Cool. That's all I want to say.

But look, maybe it's because our mindsets are too different or whatever, so I'm going to end this argument. No point to it anymore. Here's my final message:

*Hybrids and purebreds are just as good (or bad) as each other. Pretty much all issues applicable to one applies to the other. There is a market for both. Some people want both, some want only one.*


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## 24Tropheus

I just do not get this argument. Pure cichlids are relatively easy to ID if all cichlids were pure. Hybrids make ID very hard indead imposible for many cichlids. There is no getting round hybrids make up the majority of cichlids in LFSs these days. Yep the prob is not going to go away or get smaller and it seems there is nothing anyone can do about it. But to claim its not a problem (because some very very poor shops always miss IDed cichilds), well its kind of funny. :lol:


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## BC in SK

24Tropheus said:


> Pure cichlids are relatively easy to ID if all cichlids were pure. Hybrids make ID very hard indead imposible for many cichlids.


I agree with the latter,but not always with the first statement. Ichthyologists draw lines between very closely related popultions; sometimes they cannot be distinguished without disection or DNA analysis. If you know the collection point then maybe it is obvious; then again they maybe sympatric variations so collection point means nothing!

But yes, hybrids makes identification next to impossible, in many occasions/situations.


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## 24Tropheus

All too true yet the effort is there to try and keep em as pure as they can be in captivity for the main part. Accidents happen. Life is &^$* and then you die. For sure a very great number of accepted aquarium cichlids are realy hybrid if you look back. Some deliberate (Discus etc) some accidental (Aquarium Angel fish, though some of those were deliberate). Prob realy comes when there is no knowing due to poor labeling, deliberate or accidental. Its the deliberate that kind of makes my blood boil.
There are also natural hybrids. Tropheus (Ilangi) being about half way between sp" Red" and moorii/sp."Rainbow" yet these are so very different from the stuff we see in our shops. :wink:


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## 24Tropheus

Its a Central American cichlid for the most part prob best described as a Heinz. 57 varieties in one. No knowing what it will turn out like. Low chance it will be anything worth having.


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## fusion

Kind of late coming into this discussion, but good or bad here are my thoughts on it.

Most people on this forum agree that hybrids are not good for the hobby, myself included BUT

then we get to flowerhorns,Discus,fancy goldfish, koi and so on and on,,,,,, these fish have been bred to bring out certain traits, colors, shapes ect that some people obviously like and are willing to pay in some instances many thousand of dollars for. They are hybrids, but were bred to be so.

In my mind there are 2 kinds of hybrid, the ones in the mixed african cichlid tank and the flowerhorns ect i mentioned above. Just take for example dogs, all dogs derived from the wolf, over the thousands of years man has changed them into so many what we call "breeds"
Are you going to call a greyhound a hybrid? yes but one that was "made" for a purpose.

The point of my ramble? Hybrids that are bred for a purpose have a place, mixed african cichlid tanks dont.


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