# Demasoni born without pigment??!??



## danger004 (Nov 7, 2008)

Hello,

I am new to the forum but am an avid cichlid enthusiast for about 2+ years now. I have a 55 gallon tank with a variety of different cichlid species, 14 fish to be exact. My main reason for this post is that I have a group of demasonis which have been breeding quite prolifically. One dominant male to two females. I fished out there last litter of seven fry and to my astonishment the seventh one in the group was yellow in color with subtle dark bands along the side! It's eyes are pigmented b/c they are black like normal which rules out albino but it was definitely born with the other demasoni fry and my demasonis are the only group able to breed, as all other species do not have a mating pair. Is cross breeding even an applicable to this situation. I do have two red zebras as well as a large labidochromis which might have contributed to his coloration. I have heard of a holding female inadvertently holding the fertilized egg of another species but i don't think that is the case. I have named him seven and he and his brothers are growing larger every day in there happy little grow out tank. Any ideas on what he might be or what might have happened?? Thanks.

P.S. are red zebra fry light orange/yellow with subtle black stripes? Maybe my two red zebras finally decided to breed after 2 years.....even though they hate each other.


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## chapman76 (Jun 30, 2004)

He is a hybrid. Cut and dry.

Why are you so sure they're pure and that the demasoni are the only ones that can breed? If there is another sexually mature male in that tank, he very well could have bred with the demasoni female. A LOT happens when you're not looking so unless you saw this happen, ALL of the fry are hybrids. I've have hybrids that look just like mom and some that look just like dad and some that look like a mix of the two.

Actually there are two options:
1) The fry are hybrids
2) Your demasoni group are hybrids and have a non-demasoni somewhere in their lineage

A responsible breeder wouldn't keep questionable fry. Your tank doesn't sound like it's a good situation to keep fry in due to the mix. You have 3 demasoni, 2 red zebra, a yellow lab with a total of 14 fish so I'm guessing you have at least 5 or so different species of cichlids in the same tank. You have many species with LOW male to female ratios with greatly increases the odds of hybrids.

I know I sound a bit harsh, but you're not facing the obvious that these are hybrids and trying to say this breeding group somehow got a stray egg from another breeding happening at the same time. While it is possible, it's HIGHLY unlikely.


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## Joea (May 25, 2004)

To add to this, albinos don't necessarily have to have red eyes to be albino. There are varying levels of albinism and it's quite common for an albino fish to have black eyes.

The pairs in this tank are problematic and the two _M. estherae_ that you claim "hate each other" may hate each other and keep from breeding because they are two males, or two females. Any two mouthbrooding cichlids can cross, so assuming this isn't the case here may be shortsighted.

Can you post a picture of the fish?


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## danger004 (Nov 7, 2008)

They are definitely pure.....gorgeous coloration and the majority show patterns from their parents a.k.a some have an "H" on the side like their mother while others have the connecting bands near the tail like their father. If they were cross breed the other 6 fry would look different or more similar to the mystery fish. I am very involved with my fish and have seen the male court the females exclusively and he is very defensive of the females. Also I actually have a video of the male and female courting for this particular batch of fry....I moved the male and his favorite female to a separate 30 gallon breeding tank to encourage breeding. They began doing their circular courting almost immediately. No other male has courted or tried (flared or vibrated) with the demasoni females the male would never allow it. He is top dog and he has the females holding almost continuously. I purchased my demasoni from a very reputable cichlid dealer in south florida and they are definitely not cross breed. He is either albino, thanks to joea for posting that there eyes don't have to necessarily be red for albinism, or he is a fledgling fry of a new breeding pair in my tank. The red zebra pair are showing very distinct sexual dimorphism. The male is much larger and more pastel orange while the female is smaller and brighter orange and also lacks the eggspots which the male wears proudly. No one answered what _M. esthrae _fry usually look like??? :-? I'll try and get a good shot of seven to post.

ohh and chapman76.........I mentioned my fry are in there own 30gl grow out tank NOT in the community tank. And I wasn't suggesting that the female was holding a stray egg I actually said that I *didn't* think that was the case if you read more carefully. Thanks for assuming b/c I'm new to the forum I know nothing about my cichlids :thumb: and how is the situation obvious if I took the time to post a question about it?? With a myriad of possibilities cross breeding is NOT an obvious conclusion it is definitely a variable but I dn't know why you jumped to such a definitve conclusion w/ limited information and manged to sound insulting to boot.


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## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

Just because their parents appear pure, doesn't mean they are. There could be some mixed lineage somewhere in the line, resulting in this throwback. Or, two fish in this tank crossbred. Estherae fry look basically like smaller little adults.


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## chapman76 (Jun 30, 2004)

What I said has nothing to do with how the fry are raised, it's about how the parents are kept. You didn't disclose in the initial post that the male and female were seperated at the time of breeding. That would have eliminated the possibility of them being from two different parents. That information would have been helpful.

Hybrid fry can vary greatly in one batch. I had a saulosi and perlmutt breed. They fry from brood had two looks. Some looked like dad while one or two looked like a mix of the two. Hybrid fry in a single batch can look VERY different.

Now with more information that you've provided, I am fairly certain the parents are either poorly bred or hybrids. Why? Because of the H pattern and merged barring. Those are two tell tale signs of that. A Ps. demasoni from Pombo Rocks, which is what you most likely have and not the Mozambique variant, have 6 bars. None merging and certainly now horizontal striping to form an H on it.

I didn't assume you know nothing about your cichlids. Cross breeding or hybrids parents are the obvious conclusions. Now it's been narrowed down to either poorly bred parents or hybrids. I'm not being mean, I'm just explaining that compared to the "standard" for the fish, those parents are what one would consider breeder quality. Heck, I've had poor quality fish and they're nice enough to keep since most people wouldn't know the difference between high quality or low quality fish.

Like joea said, a picture would help a ton.


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## danger004 (Nov 7, 2008)

Here's the little *******..... the color is a little off



















ohh and the lighting is a really yellow temporary halogen. A flourescent bulb with some actinic really brings out that natural blue of demasonis. Just wanted to throw that in there b/c there color looks way off under yellow light.


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## chapman76 (Jun 30, 2004)

To me it looks like a hybrid. Here is why:

1) While the color is more of an intense yellow under the light, it still has some yellow. The only yellow "albinos" I've seen are the albino L. caeruleus and whether those are pure or not, I have no idea, but the base color of the "normal" species is yellow, not light blue.
2) Barring. FAR too many bars for a demasoni. Like I said, demasoni Pombo Rocks should have 6 bars. Not 4, 5, or 7. 6. I can count 10 in the picture.

Most likely somewhere down the line of your demasoni, there is a non demasoni. I could be wrong, but I highly doubt it.

I didn't intend for any of the posts to be mean. Just when you automatically say "it can't be a hybrid". To me it appears you're in denial or just don't want to accept the fact they might be.

Those are my thoughts. Do what you want with them.


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## danger004 (Nov 7, 2008)

what about the possibility it is from another breeding pair in my tank and not a demasoni at all?? what does it look like to you from an impartial perspective? could it be a red zebra fry? Yellow peacock? labidochromis mix?? Just b/c I scooped him up at the same time I collected my demasoni fry doesn't mean he is one. Trying to figure out what he is. It's kind of strange to have 6 typical demasoni fry and one yellow weirdo out of nowhere.

Ohh and correction I said above the father has a merged band....one female has an H the other female has a merged band on the end. The dominant male has perfect striation. I'll try and post a video of the breeding.


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## chapman76 (Jun 30, 2004)

It doesn't look like any of the above. Peacocks would be grey/silver as fry. Red zebra or yellow labs wouldn't have barring.

Why all do you have in your tank? That might help. It doesn't like anything like the ones you said and since you seperated the parents when they bred, it isn't a estherae or a caeruleus and demasoni mix.

Do you or did you have other fry in the tank that you knew of? Were any females holding around the time the demasoni female was?


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## Joea (May 25, 2004)

I see a lot of Labidochromis in that fish.

Cross-breeding isn't a mortal sin, it happens to the best of us. These fish do what they want and despite how loyal, or protective you think a male may be to his females, there's still a chance of any fish in your tank crossing. The best combinations of the purest fish can still produce hybrids, and unless you're policing the tank 24/7, no one can be sure that there isn't some crossbreeding or at least an _attempt _at crossbreeding, taking place.

A rogue fry in a batch of completely normal looking fry is quite common with hybrids; it's known as a throwback. I'm not saying this is the case with this fish however. There is also the possibility that while the _Ps. demasoni_ were spawning, the Labidochromis was also trying to spawn and managed to fertilize one of the _Ps. demasoni_ eggs.

If the fry pictured were the product of a spawn by a lone male and female, isolated in their own tank, then you can be certain that at least one of the two _Ps. demasoni _ parents is a hybrid. This would be known as a ad-hoc hybrid. An ad-hoc hybrid is one that isn't pure of its supposed species, but resembles it down to the last detail. These are, in my opinion, the most dangerous type of hybrids because they can be unknowingly sold as pure, even by reputable breeders, and often produce copious amounts of fry, before a single throwback rears its ugly head.

Unequivocally stating that any fish we keep are pure, isn't fact unless we can positively trace the generation back to the WC stock it came from. This is impossible and most often all we're left with is the word of the seller. When we do buy from reputable breeders, it's best to pick quality looking fish and be aware that they are producing quality looking fry if we plan on distributing them.

I would have to see a few more clutches from these fish before I'd be comfortable distributing any fry.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Is it just me or is anyone else noticing a faint yellow cast to the blue barred fry, as well???

In the top fry pic, I'm seeing yellow on the underside of the little one off to himself, and in the other fry pic, I am seeing faint yellow on the upper portion around the dorsal on both "demasoni". It _could_ be the lighting, but I don't think it would reflect underneath a fry. :-?

How about some pictures of those 3 adult demasoni?

Another question...If you seperated out the male and female to spawn, did you then return her to the main tank while she was holding? If not, where were these fry when you "fished" them out? It's just kind of strange if you put her back in the main tank after the spawn and then had to turn around and get the fry out...


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## danger004 (Nov 7, 2008)

It's obvious who the dad is...the mom has a touching band near the tail. She is pale b/c she's showing submission to the mail who is flaring.



























the male is releasing his sperm into her mouth in this shot. she's already holding the eggs =D>
this is like fish porn and I felt horrible the whole time I filmed it. lol

I moved the male out of the tank after a day b/c when they are done mating they dog the female relentlessly. After a few more days I moved the female back b/c she looked not to happy all by herself and sometimes females will quite holding and terminate when the father is no longer around or she feels stress from a change of environment. Also they have had many generations of fry before this and have spawned many times in the community tank. I do notice some of the fish get excited and try to nose in when they go into there mating dance.....so the idea that my single and large male labidochrome might have tried to fertilize at the same time as the male demasoni seems plausible. I do remember seeing him flare and vibrate a long while ago but to know fish in particular.......i thought it was strange b/c he was the only lab in the tank at the time. Now he has a younger female to keep him busy but she still too young.


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## chapman76 (Jun 30, 2004)

The shimmy and flare thing is either trying to show dominance or mating. Both look identical.

Since they were seperated in this one and you obviously watched closely opcorn: , I would say there is most likely a non-demasoni in one or both of the fishes history. The male looks pretty good, but the barring on the female makes me question her a bit. Merged barring. It's at strange angles.

I'd say keep a close eye on these fry and any other fry that come from the demasoni group, particularly this female.

Are all of your demasoni from the same group or were they purchased at different times or breeders?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I agree with chapman76.

If the pair were alone for the spawn and the female was left in the tank for a few days before being returned to the main tank, I don't see how the Labidochromis was involved.

Or am I totally misunderstanding and the pair were not alone in the tank???

If they were alone and you left the female in the tank for a few days, and these fry were produced by that female, there's some suspicious lineage for one or both of the demasoni.

As Joea said, it happens. I had the most perfect looking bunch of Yellow labs you ever saw, until they produced a clutch of fry that appeared to be red zebras...I didn't own any red zebras at the time. :roll:


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## danger004 (Nov 7, 2008)

In all honesty I dnt think she held the clutch she had from this spawning session. She was eating regularly after a few days and the gestation period long passed before the batch in question appeared in my tank. The male respawned with this female or the other female in the tank(I call her Honda b/c of her "H"). Knowing my fish and their behavior I'm leaning toward an accidental cross fertilization or the yellow fry came from a completely separate mating pair in my tank. Although it is a real possibility that he is a throwback from one of my demasonis and I am willing to accept that. Only time will tell and I'm setting up a permanent tank for the fry so that they will never be returned to the original. I'm also upgrading my main tank to 150gl pretty soon so hopefully I can further diversify my stock and keep certain species separate from others to ensure(to the best of my ability) direct lineage. Thanks for everyone's responses. I'm gonna shrink the size of that video b/c it's just cool and hopefully link some fish porn for everyone to watch :drooling:


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

So that's a bit different than what you said initially... :-?

It's really difficult for us to try to help you determine what's going on when the story keeps changing.

I would be very hesitant to distribute any fry from the 55G set up, or those demasoni - no matter which tank they breed in.

You really need to identify all your fish and work on your breeding groups somewhat. I would not house more than 3 species in a 55G tank for breeding purposes. Keeping Yellow labs and red zebras together is always risky as far as hybridization goes - keeping them in tiny breeding group sizes per species increases the risk.


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## Dewdrop (Nov 20, 2007)

:-?

I've only seen pics of dems so have never owned any but I've seen lots of pics and I wouldn't breed those dems. The females bars are way off and I don't even think the males bars look all that great  . I'm sorry, I really am not trying to be mean just my honest opinion. I think to breed and distribute you should have top notch fish.

I have some kenyi that don't have good barring either so I won't breed them or pass on any fry from them (if I keep them long enough and they do produce fry). It's not a bad thing to have imperfect fish. Real good quality can be hard to find or afford sometimes but it's not good to sell fish that aren't up to par, in my opinion.


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## zackdmb (Feb 28, 2007)

the female is not a Demasoni, it is a hybrid. Demasoni should not have any "merged" banding. A female Demasoni should look like a male Demasoni, only slightly smaller. The banding should be as close to perfectly straight up and down as possible.


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## Joea (May 25, 2004)

zackdmb said:


> the female is not a Demasoni, it is a hybrid. Demasoni should not have any "merged" banding. A female Demasoni should look like a male Demasoni, only slightly smaller. The banding should be as close to perfectly straight up and down as possible.


Uneven barring is not necessarily a result of hybridization. I've seen wild and have owned F1 _Ps. demasoni_ with merged barring.


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## StructureGuy (Jul 27, 2002)

Joea said:


> Uneven barring is not necessarily a result of hybridization. I've seen wild and have owned F1 _Ps. demasoni_ with merged barring.


Yup. When DeMason did a talk at the Ohio Cichlid Association Extravaganza a few years ago, he mentioned that wild-caught demasoni often have merged stripes. But then he said that people seem to prefer even stripes so that is what he was selectively line-breeding.

Kevin


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

The female looks to me no worse than many TB ones for sale here but yep I would not select it to breed from.
I have not seen a wild caught one with such a lot of split bars but that does not mean they do not exist.
Check out the barring on the young they may be fine I think.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

Joea said:


> To add to this, albinos don't necessarily have to have red eyes to be albino. There are varying levels of albinism and it's quite common for an albino fish to have black eyes.
> 
> The pairs in this tank are problematic and the two _M. estherae_ that you claim "hate each other" may hate each other and keep from breeding because they are two males, or two females. Any two mouthbrooding cichlids can cross, so assuming this isn't the case here may be shortsighted.
> 
> Can you post a picture of the fish?


im pretty sure they have to have red eyes to be albino... if they dont they are not albino, they are either Leucistic, Xanthic, Amelanistic or the like, albinism requires red eyes.


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## Joea (May 25, 2004)

gage said:


> im pretty sure they have to have red eyes to be albino... if they dont they are not albino, they are either Leucistic, Xanthic, Amelanistic or the like, albinism requires red eyes.


Albinism refers to a group of inherited conditions, like the ones you've listed. As I've said, there are varying degrees of albinism and red eyes is not necessarily a trait.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

StructureGuy said:


> Joea said:
> 
> 
> > Uneven barring is not necessarily a result of hybridization. I've seen wild and have owned F1 _Ps. demasoni_ with merged barring.
> ...


As for Joea's comment, ditto!

Kevin, I've seen several tanks of Leif's fry at a LFS near here, and there are quite a few with merged stripes slipping through. I always take a really good look at them, because they're priced at about 3 times what I sold my F2 fry for, so I'm always kind of dumbfounded that they can even sell them for that! :lol:


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

Joea said:


> gage said:
> 
> 
> > im pretty sure they have to have red eyes to be albino... if they dont they are not albino, they are either Leucistic, Xanthic, Amelanistic or the like, albinism requires red eyes.
> ...


the pupils should appear hollow looking, as the pupil is clear, it is whats behind it that makes them appear red, if the pupils dont have the "hollow" appearance, they are not albino


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

gage said:


> the pupils should appear hollow looking, as the pupil is clear, it is whats behind it that makes them appear red, if the pupils dont have the "hollow" appearance, they are not albino


albinos may have red eyes, or may not... albinism is only the notable lack of pigment production. If an animal (that is normally a colored animal) is all white but has pigmented eyes, it is still notable that the animal is white. 
An animal that can be white, e.g. a mouse, would need red eyes to be different from a white mouse.

Leucistic animals are different to regular albinos as the lack of pigmentation is from the absence of the cells themselves that produce pigment. This lacking of cells be not be uniform, so a blotchy appearance is possible.

Your other terms are rather made up ones from herp hobby circles... e.g. xanthic means having a yellow color and isn't related to albinism (except that some albinos may have a yellow look).

amelanistic, hypomelanistic, etc. are totally made up words.

Hope that helps.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

> amelanistic, hypomelanistic, etc. are totally made up words.


All words are made up. Some folk agree on the definition of some words more than others. :wink:


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

24Tropheus said:


> All words are made up. Some folk agree on the definition of some words more than others. :wink:


LOL, funny... words do have to have some consensus to them, and amelanistic or hypomelanistic do not. They don't even really make sense!!

Amelanistic would be the absence of over production of melanin... which means? Is the absence of an overproduction not just "back to normal"?

Hypo is not much better... who is to say whether an underproduction of melanin is significant enough to call the animal something else but not yet albino?

If I answered posts around here saying, "well, this odd colored fry is actually a barbelgarfer." 
Who am I helping? 
:lol:

what odd conversations we have on this board! :lol: 
'gotta' love it!


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