# Will apistos work in my tank, and if so, which kind?



## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

Hey there,

I've posted other questions previously, but now my tank is getting down to the finishing touches.

I have a heavily-planted, 3-foot, 65 gallon tank. It has an Eheim 2217. I live in the Pacific NW where the water is very soft and has a pH generally around 6.6-6.8. I keep the temp 78-79-ish.

Here's my current stocking:
- 6 Daisy's ricefish (Oryzias Woworae)
- 5 Purple pencilfish (Nannostomus rubrocaudatus) - would like to get 3 more when they are available.
- 10 Marbled hatchetfish
- 12 Spotted blue-eye rainbowfish (Pseudomugil Gertrudae)
- 6 Kuhli loaches
- 2 Stiphodon Elegans Gobies
- 3 Farlowella "twig" catfish

And I plan on getting 4-6 Laetacara araguaie "Buckelkopf" this week, to get an eventual pair to keep in the tank.

My husband hasn't really chosen any fish for the tank, as it's mostly my thing, but he loves Apistos.
So my questions are:
- Could I put a pair of Apistos in this tank - with the Laetacara - and have everyone be happy?
- If so, is there a specific species that would work best for this setup? Remember, this has a 3-ft footprint.
- If you don't think Apistos would work, do you think something like Bolivian Rams or Dicrossus Maculatus would? Or should I just stick with the Laetacara pair?

Here is my local apisto selection as of this week: http://wetspottropicalfish.com/index...d=51&Itemid=66
Apistogramma, agassizi "Double Red", , 1.5", $15.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, cf. agassizi netz "Tefe Pearl Blue", , 1.5", $17.50 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, baenschi "Inka" , , 1.5", $24.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, bitaeniata , , 1.25", $15.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, borelli "Blue", , 1.5", $10.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, borelli "Opal", , 1.25", $12.50 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, sp. "Breitbinden", , 1.25", $30.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, cacatuoides "Super Red", , 1.5", $12.50 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, cacatuoides "Orange Flash", , 1.5", $12.50 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, cacatuoides WILD Peru, , 1.25", $8.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, sp. "Nanay" WILD Peru, , 1.25", $8.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, sp. "Kelleri" "Diamond Face" NICE, , 1.75", $35.00 , Pairs Not
Apistogramma, diplotaenia, , .75", $50.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, elizabethae, , 1.25", $45.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, eruthrura "Rio Mamore", , 1.25", $30.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, eunotus "Blue Cheek" WILD Peru, , 1.5", $8.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, hongsloi Form II, , 1.25", $30.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, mendezi, , 1", $30.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, nijsseni, , 1.5", $15.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, panduro , , 1", $15.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, sp. "Pebas", , 1"+, $20.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, pertensis, , 1", $12.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, sp. "Putumayo" "Algodon II", , 1.5", $30.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, steindachneri, , 1.5-2", $12.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, trifasciata, , 1.5", $12.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, sp. "Tucurui", , 1.25", $15.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed
Apistogramma, viejita "Red Neck", , 1.5-2", $15.00 , Pairs Not Guaranteed

Thanks so much in advance!


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Try for a trio of baenschi "Inka".



















Or the panduro.


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

I do love how those inkas look! What are their personalities like?


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

I guess I've heard that certain species have different temperaments. I think I need a fish that won't take guff from the Laetacaras, but yet won't harass them either. I also like fish that are owner interactive.

If it was based on looks alone, I could do that. :wink:


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

While we're on the topic of A. baenschi, here's a couple pictures of my pair 



















You could also try A. cacatuoides; I have a quartet of wild caughts, and the 1.5 inch females are dominant over the 2.5 inch angels :lol:



















I think most of the larger apistos will be able to hold their own, especially breeding females, and I've not had an apisto do aynthing major, besides the occasional squabble over territory, which has never resulted in more than a torn fin or two.


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

Thanks, I'm loving the recommendations and the photos!

Which are the larger apistos in the list above?

Someone else recommended that to increase the liklihood of a peaceful mixing, to choose 2 male laetacaras and 2 or 3 male apistos of different types and body shapes. He said that if I try to get pairs (without the intent to breed, which would likely not work in my community tank anyway - gobies and kuhli loaches etc) there'd be a much greater liklihood of aggression.

I am not wanting to breed, though at some point I may give it a shot - in that case I'd likely do a species tank, then, and focus on it. I don't really want to miss out on fun behaviors, but I don't want to disrupt my current peaceful community too much either. I just want the fish to be happy and to have some interesting species.

What do you all think about this?


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

They both get about 4 inches for the males; I wouldn't recommend mixing apistos; and even if you get just males of everything, you'll probably still see aggression, although, IME, male apistos are a lot less aggressive than females.


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

Can you please elaborate a little re: why you wouldn't mix apistos?


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

Territory, I think, would be the biggest reason; each female apisto needs about a square foot of territory, and some buffering space in between each is recommended. The male also likes to patrol the tank, so having multiple species could cause a clash. Plus, two female apistos sparring for territory is very fun to watch, as is the male's constant courtship, and having multiple apisto species usually means you won't see very much of that. There's also the fact that a lot of female apistos look similar, so telling which is what can give you headaches, especially if you have species from the same group/complex.


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

Well, in the above setup there would be only males. I wouldn't mix breeding pairs, but maybe do two males from different groups/complexes....

The thought was that there would be some flaring but less aggression without females around. And they'd be less likely to bother my other bottom feeders like the kuhlis and gobies.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I don't know what others people experiences are, but I have had terrible luck mixing male apistos.

I had 5 cacatoide males in a six foot tank along with 10 females, the 5 males picked themselves down to two. But personally, I would not mix apistos and Laetacara in a 3ft tank either.


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

But your situation had males and females, hence the trouble and hence the only-male theory....?

I've also heard that the cacautoides can be more on the aggressive side?

Could you let me know why you wouldn't mix laetscara and apistos?

I'm trying to soak as much info as possible.
Thanks!


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I think males will target each other regardless of females present. Just my opinion, but I base that on how rough mine were on each other and how rough other male species are on each other regardless of breeding. Seems to me nature is all about eliminating competition.

I mixed Laetacara with apistos in a 5ft tank, worked well. I'm saying I would not mix both in your tank since its only three feet. You also have a ton of fish already hanging out on the bottom I'm assuming with the catfish, gobies, and loaches. I can't see apistos or laetacara doing well in the setup based on my experience with them since both won't be able to claim much if any territory.

Like I said, the above is just my opinion. Who knows what will happen, your closing in on 50+ fish in a 3ft tank lol. Never done anything like that myself with dwarfs.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

Yea I don't think more dwarves would be a good idea either. I'm prefer sure that, regardless of whether or not there are females present, the males would still pick each other off until only one remained, as your tank is only 3 foot long, and many apistos, especially the harem breeders, tend to claim a piece of the river bottom that spans the territory of several females, which is usually 2+ square feet.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

And also an important thing to remember is with apistogrammas, the majority of them are coming from leaf litter so visibility is from leaf to leaf :lol:

It's hard to create the same super complex environment and still enjoy seeing the fish which is why we usually keep them in pairs or small harems.


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

ahud said:


> I think males will target each other regardless of females present. Just my opinion, but I base that on how rough mine were on each other and how rough other male species are on each other regardless of breeding. Seems to me nature is all about eliminating competition.
> 
> I mixed Laetacara with apistos in a 5ft tank, worked well. I'm saying I would not mix both in your tank since its only three feet. You also have a ton of fish already hanging out on the bottom I'm assuming with the catfish, gobies, and loaches. I can't see apistos or laetacara doing well in the setup based on my experience with them since both won't be able to claim much if any territory.
> 
> Like I said, the above is just my opinion. Who knows what will happen, your closing in on 50+ fish in a 3ft tank lol. Never done anything like that myself with dwarfs.


This can all get so frustrating, as I can read so many different opinions on these topics... I can continue to read and research and it seems that there's never a definitive answer. Of course we're talking about live beings, and I know the individual species, and also the individual fish can act differently which is part of the discrepancy, but still...

So where I'm getting the all-male suggestion is on the apistogramma forum, from Mike Wise, who is very experienced in apistos, breeds them and writes articles on them. This is the only reason I continue to entertain the scenario.

BUT, I don't want unhappy fish. BUT, I want a dwarf cichlid! :?

If you count my fish, there are actually 44, and due to a recent ich bout, I've lost 4 of the 6 ricefish, sadly. So I have 40 fish, 6 of which are kuhlis which have a low bioload for their size. Remember that most of these fish are 1 - 1.5 inches max when adult size, and they use all areas of the tank. It's 36x19x24, so it's tall. I don't think I'm overstocked, if that's the suggestion, and my filter is made for a larger tank, so the water quality is good. Sorry if I sound defensive... not enough coffee on a Monday morning.

Anyway, the kuhlis aren't territorial, the gobies hang out everywhere, and the farlowella are mostly hanging on the plants and the driftwood and the sides of the glass unless feeding time. I totally hear what you're saying, but my bottom feeders are easy going.

So you don't personally think I can do any dwarves at all? You don't think they'd be happy?

I was going to do leaf litter, too. I think I have a pretty nice home in there for everyone... I love, love my tank, but I just want another owner-interactive, "centerpiece" fish. *sigh*

Again, I don't want you to think I don't appreciate the input, I really do... It's just when I think I have it figured out what I'll do/get, then I get unsure again. I don't want to make a bad decision and have the fish pay for it.


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

I think in our next house, I'll need 5 foot tank since I obviously seen love bottom-dwellers so much.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

If Mike Wise was given all of the info we were and he thinks it will work then its worth a shot in my opinion. I would have no problems trying anything he suggested would work. Mike certainly has more experience than myself.

Nah, I don't think you are overstocked, just lacking territory, but again that's my opinion lol.

Good luck,

And your right about needing a bigger tank, My six foot tank with apistos is the most entertaining tank I have ever had. The group behaviors of apisots are amazing.


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

How many gallons is the 5 and 6 foot?

Argh... Just getting back into the hobby and I'm already wanting another tank. ;-)


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Gallons do not really matter, currently I have a 90g six footer and a 125g six footer.


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