# No progress with cycling



## Pernille (Mar 10, 2021)

We are cycling a 300 gallon setup with sump. We set the tank up 15 days ago, running pumps and powerheads at full speed - high temperature in tank. 14 days ago I added ammonia to approx 5 ppm and added some filtermedia from an existing tank (only a little). Since then I have also added a few shimp in the sump and some fishfood.

I have tested for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate daily since then - consistently getting high ammonia, no nitrite and no nitrate. I have read that the expected time for nitrite to appear should be 8-10 days (without the added filtermedia). I performed a patrial waterchange 3 days ago bringing ammonia to 4-5 ppm. My measuring scale stops at 5 - and I didn't want it too high.

Are we doing something wrong or is it just a matter of waiting it out?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

It does take a while for the chemicals to build up and the organisms to grow initially. Allow six weeks on average, you should see results begin to be measurable soon.

I would shoot for 2ppm on the ammonia.


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## Pernille (Mar 10, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> It does take a while for the chemicals to build up and the organisms to grow initially. Allow six weeks on average, you should see results begin to be measurable soon.
> 
> I would shoot for 2ppm on the ammonia.


I am ok with six weeks (even though I was hoping for less with filter media from another tank)... But I thought there should be some progress after 2 weeks? Right now I am seeing nothing at all


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You said only a little established media. If those organisms were producing nitrite and nitrate already...you would see nitrate readings. Are you shaking the nitrite regents long enough before and after adding?

It is not an even process...you go from nothing to sky high all at once.


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## Pernille (Mar 10, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> You said only a little established media. If those organisms were producing nitrite and nitrate already...you would see nitrate readings. Are you shaking the nitrite regents long enough before and after adding?
> 
> It is not an even process...you go from nothing to sky high all at once.


I am shaking the bottles first. I might have had just a little bit of nitrite - the colors can sometimes be hard to decifer...

I am just wondering if I a doing it all wrong and will sit here in a month, still without progress. I have never cycled a tank before


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

I'm in the middle of my own cycling saga. It took over 40 days to see nitrite (I didn't start with media like you did though). When I cycled from scratch in the past, it only took 14 days to see nitrite. I don't know why it varies so much, I'm sure there's some reason.

Don't bother testing nitrates for a while. Many tests including the API liquid test give false results on the nitrate test when nitrite is present (makes you think nitrites are getting converted to nitrate when in reality the test falsely reports nitrite as nitrate)

It will be pretty clear when you have nitrite. And ammonia will drop back down to 0 when or shortly after you start seeing nitrite.


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## Pernille (Mar 10, 2021)

Rhinox said:


> I'm in the middle of my own cycling saga. It took over 40 days to see nitrite (I didn't start with media like you did though). When I cycled from scratch in the past, it only took 14 days to see nitrite. I don't know why it varies so much, I'm sure there's some reason.
> 
> Don't bother testing nitrates for a while. Many tests including the API liquid test give false results on the nitrate test when nitrite is present (makes you think nitrites are getting converted to nitrate when in reality the test falsely reports nitrite as nitrate)
> 
> It will be pretty clear when you have nitrite. And ammonia will drop back down to 0 when or shortly after you start seeing nitrite.


40 days


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

42 to be exact, but who's counting. But the first time I cycled it only took 14! So I predict you'll see nitrites sometime between 14 and 42 days 

What is the pH and temperature of your water while cycling?

I don't know why it's taking my current filter so long. Current theory is not enough oxygen getting into the water. My pump and outlet both submerged, I added food as well which seems to have introduced proteins possibly inhibiting oxygen exchange. I'm using higher temperatures too which is supposed to allow bacteria to grow faster, but higher temp water also has less oxygen. I added airstones to aerate the water prior to entering the filter media and within a week I finally started seeing nitrates. Maybe just coincidence?

There was a few days overlap between seeing nitrites and ammonia dropping to zero. Before, I saw nitrites appear an ammonia drop to zero on the same day. Now I can dump more than 6ppm ammonia (in ~30g of water in my sump) every other day and it drops back down to 0 in <2 days. it's higher concentration than recommended but would be about the right total amount if I had my sump hooked up to the full tank. It's been another 17 days since I first started seeing nitrites. If the airstones fixed a stalled cycle I would expect nitrites to drop any day now. I think the last time it was 3 weeks before nitrites disappeared, but I had let my pH drop to 6.5 and lower pH slows progress. I did a water change on day 34 which replenished the buffers raising pH and nitrites were 0 on day 35. I added baking soda to my sump this time to make sure my pH didn't drop.

I don't know if my experience can help you but that's what's been happening with my cycle lately.


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## Pernille (Mar 10, 2021)

Rhinox said:


> 42 to be exact, but who's counting. But the first time I cycled it only took 14! So I predict you'll see nitrites sometime between 14 and 42 days
> 
> What is the pH and temperature of your water while cycling?
> 
> ...


The temperature of the water is 28C - and I can't possibly have an oxygen shortage with the amount of watermovement I have in the surface

I have a pH around 8-8,2...


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## Idech (Nov 8, 2020)

Your cycle seems to be coming along but it will take longer because you're keeping your ammonia levels around 5 ppm. At 2 ppm ammonia, it takes about 25-30 days on average.


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## LoveAllCichlids (Apr 3, 2021)

Not sure how much filtered media you had from your previous tank, but I cycled my 75 gallon with a 6 inch by 4 inch extra sponge filter I had in my 29 gallon for over a month in anticipation of starting a new 75 gallon. The cycle took 5 days. It took 1 day after I added about 4ppm of ammonia for nitrite to appear. I added more ammonia (2ppm) and the nitrite spike off the charts. The nitrite test would turn dark purple instantly. I stopped adding ammonia after the second time because in previous tank cycling, the more ammonia I added, the nitrite would never disappear. Once I stopped adding ammonia, the nitrite started to decrease. It processed 2-3ppm of ammonia in less than 24 hours. That's plenty of processing for the amount of fish I was going to stock.

Fast forward this week. I cycled another tank in 48 hours. It was a 20 gallon long for my "hospital" tank. I used filter media from one of my smaller 10 gallon tank, and that same sponge filter I had in my 75 gallon tank. Added 4ppm of ammonia. The ammonia was 0 in about 12-14 hours and nitrite was 4-5ppm. Instead of adding a bunch more ammonia as most people are doing these days and I have done in the past, I only added 0.5-1ppm of ammonia. The ammonia went to 0 within 12 hours and nitrite started to drop. I stopped adding ammonia and by hour 48, tank was cycled. I added 4 Mbuna medium sized red zebras and fed them well. They pooped and did their normal thing. I've been testing water twice a day and no ammonia or nitrite is showing. Nitrate is around 25-30. My tap has standard 10-20 ppm nitrate.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

This sounds - superficially -like its about a successful cycling operation for an aquarium. Then....


LoveAllCichlids said:


> My tap has standard 10-20 ppm nitrate.


Where are these tap water readings coming from?
And why..... WHY?!!!
Are so many Americans reporting these high Nitrate readings in their Tap Water?
And, in another thread:


Auballagh said:


> The water you are using exceeds the U.S. EPA standard for municipal tap water....
> 
> The maximum contaminant level (MCL) for nitrate in public drinking water supplies in the United States (U.S.) is 10 mg/L as nitrate-nitrogen (NO3-N). This concentration is approximately equivalent to the World Health Organization (WHO) guideline of 50 mg/L as NO3 or 11.3 mg/L NO3-N (multiply NO3 mg/L by 0.2258).
> 
> ...


-
Ummmm.... no. 
Blue Baby Syndrome much? 
Seriously.
Why are we now recording these high Nitrate readings in our municipal tap water?


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## LoveAllCichlids (Apr 3, 2021)

Not sure, but I live in Southern California. The water here is extremely hard. Much harder than Northern California. And the water here is not good for drinking imho.

I don't know if I have enough beneficial bacteria in the 2-3 day cycles, but I know it can handle my stock which is all that matters. 4 Middle size Mbuna's in a 20 gallon hospital tank is a decent amount of poop and ammonia, but my 48 hour cycled tank is able to handle it without any ammonia or nitrite spikes. I'm testing every 12 hours just to make sure. Remember, I brought over a 6x4inch sponge filter from my other tank (a 75 gallon and it was previously in a 29 gallon).

What I do is when I know I'm going to need to cycle a tank (and even if I don't, just as a backup) I always have an extra few sponge filters handy that are already cycled and have tons of good bacteria on it. It's like an insurance policy. Some of these fish have been with me during some difficult times and I feel I owe it to them to give them the best hospital care if they get sick. I call it MbunaCare (aka Obamacare).


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

When you transfer organisms into the tank from another tank...it is not exactly the same as what is meant when we use the word cycle relative to aquarium water chemistry, which is the process of going through the cycle of growing the organisms on clean filter media. Ammonia cycles up then down. Nitrite cycles up then down. Nitrate cycles up.

If you have organisms to transfer...especially if you have enough to support the new bioload 100% you avoid having to cycle the tank.

Note that the organisms on your filter media that you transfer are not supporting gallons of water but rather the bioload of the tank. So if you have 4 sponge filters in a 75G tank with 20 fish, one of them can support a bioload of 5 fish regardless of the gallons in the new tank.

Southern California should be subject to the same regulations as other US locations. Hard water is good for drinking, but water with nitrate is not. Unless you have a private well that you don't want to invest in fixing, I would definitely submit a complaint with your water authority. May as well get something (like drinkable water) for your tax dollars.


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## Pernille (Mar 10, 2021)

Update - now three weeks in...

STILL no sign of nitrite (or nitrate)... High temp (28C), pH8 and lots of watermovement...

We are lucky enough to have excellent drinking water - no nitrate in tap water - and no chlorine or additives either, that could stall the process. KH is 19 natually which is high, but good for mbunas later.

I have lost patience a long time ago  The only action in my tank is lots of airbubbles and emerging gunk on my rocks... :roll:


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Don't get frustrated. Try something different!
Seriously, have you tried 'inoculation' yet?


Auballagh said:


> - Get some of the media from an established aquarium (again?) and either add it to your filtration media, or vigorously expose your media to it for inoculation. The best way to do inoculate aquarium filtration media, is to get a bucket partially filled with tank water, then place both new and old filtration media in it. Rub them both together vigorously to spread the beneficial filtration bacteria onto your new media. Foam type filtration media is preferred for this.


As an example... at one point I only had a single Aquaclear 70, (Small, hang-on-back power filter), running and established on a 20 gallon (80L) aquarium. Applying fish-less cycling procedures by adding ammonia to the water, and using daily inoculation with the foam media from that little filter, I successfully brought a bone-dry, 180 gallon tank (50 gallon sump filtration) up to running and fully cycled in less than 2 weeks.  
I'm actually kind of amazed that more people struggling with this thing, don't do this simple inoculation technique to get their aquariums started up faster...


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## Pernille (Mar 10, 2021)

Auballagh said:


> Don't get frustrated. Try something different!
> Seriously, have you tried 'inoculation' yet?
> 
> 
> ...


I got a small piece of filterfoam with brown gunk from a coworker. I added that (including the brown water) directly to the sump of my tank (where it still is) three weeks ago. I had hoped it would speed the process up - and I don't like asking him for more. His aquarium (although well established) is much smaller than mine and just has a bucket filter.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

The only way that inoculation really works, is if you work those surfaces together. The beneficial bacteria that have fully colonized the established, foam filter media are just physically rubbed onto the new foam media. I did this once, sometimes twice per day, with the foam pre-filters sited in each corner overflow, and even with the foam mats placed on top of each drip/splash tray for the sump. Bio-balls sited below both of the drip trays, served as the main filtration media source, but I didn't touch them at all (and apparently didn't need to for initial cycling purposes).


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## Pernille (Mar 10, 2021)

Auballagh said:


> The only way that inoculation really works, is if you work those surfaces together. The beneficial bacteria that have fully colonized the established, foam filter media are just physically rubbed onto the new foam media. I did this once, sometimes twice per day, with the foam pre-filters sited in each corner overflow, and even with the foam mats placed on top of each drip/splash tray for the sump. Bio-balls sited below both of the drip trays, served as the main filtration media source, but I didn't touch them at all (and apparently didn't need to for initial cycling purposes).


Ok - so I should take the sponge and rub it against the form in the sump? It is laying in the sump now and I have squeezed all the gunk out of it several times, but that's not enough?

**** - I am willing to try anything :lol:


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Alrighty then... 


Pernille said:


> Ok - so I should take the sponge and rub it against the form in the sump?


Assuming that word 'form' you wrote actually means 'foam' - then yes! The beneficial filtration bacteria you need, do not live floating in the water (very few of them there in number), they colonize and grow out on surfaces (bio-film). You need to rub that established/colonized foam surface against your new/non-colonized foam, to spread viable/active bacteria onto the new foam's surface. 
The procedure is simple, just like I described earlier with the partially filled bucket of tank water, and the foam pieces. :thumb:


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## SenorStrum (Aug 14, 2020)

I could not agree Auballagh more. And less. Typical Strum.

The organisms you need absolutely only "function" if they're growing on a surface. They can stay alive in the water, but they don't "do their job" there. The friendly Celtic Virginian suggests to rub medium upon medium with vigorous malice aforethought. I had not though of this method. Makes sense and should work great. Also of great utility, and my usual method, is to squeeze an old sponge filter in the tank. They key issue is the biofloc (biofilm) that only grows ON things. You squeeze the sponge filter to get it off of there and now it's in your water. So, if you turn your filter on, it should go all throughout the whole tank and also populate your biomedia and you're off to the races - er.. LFS.

BUT, many (most?) people run their tanks with mechanical filtration. What happens here is that they have squozen (I'm keeping it. It's new, it's mine and I love it. Squozen.) the bb off the sponge filter, then it gets stuck in the mechanical filtration and is removed - because we're told to replace it weekly. Not saying you did this, just adding a comment for posterity.

I also believe in inoculation, and have done it in my tanks with everything from dirt to yeast to live plants to live blackworms, to bottled bacteria.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Oh El Hefe'.....
When, THE Strum holds forth? We - including your ever-helpful (and friendly!), Celtic Virginian - must indeed, most definitely parse, THE Word.
And, though in truth I must warn all that THE Strum is want for, 
- His Aquarium-Keeping Heresy.
- Offered recommendations that are truly RIFE with Contradictions (of himself - usually).
- His personal experiences, that DO inform - and often delight.
- A razor-sharp wit, that though curiously blunt in personal... affront. Can be quite memorable in professional... intent.

Bottom Line: THE Strum's efforts, contributions and C-f Written Word have been most definitely appreciated by this most humble of appreciative (and helpful!) Celtic Virginians.
-
And yes, SenorStrum's (written) belief in beneficial bacteria inoculation, and all of it's myriad, beneficial effects - should inform my recommendation rather nicely.
Jusst dooo eet!


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## Pernille (Mar 10, 2021)

Now four weeks in... STILL no nitrite or nitrate...

I have done a PWC twice and reduced the ammonia a bit... Right now it's hovering between 1,5 and 3... I still have some fish food in, a couple of rotting shrimp in the sump and the borrowed filterfoam has moved into the other foam in the sump.

Plenty of water movement and high temp... Only development in the tank is fastforming brown residue on the rocks, which can be scrubbed off with relative ease..

I don't know what else to do...


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## SenorStrum (Aug 14, 2020)

Auballagh said:


> - Offered recommendations that are truly RIFE with Contradictions (of himself - usually).


OK - guilty as charged. But! This is only because I'm so often wrong and deserve to be contradicted. 

Also, is this tank cycled yet? Speaking of which, somebody better check on Rhinox...


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## StevenD (Jun 24, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> It does take a while for the chemicals to build up and the organisms to grow initially. Allow six weeks on average, you should see results begin to be measurable soon.
> 
> I would shoot for 2ppm on the ammonia.


Just give the tank time. The cycling process usually takes six to eight weeks. After about eight weeks, your ammonia and Nitrite levels should be acceptable (about trace levels), and you can add more fish.


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