# Instant Cycling



## MonteSS (Dec 8, 2008)

Had this conversation in someone elses post and didnt want to go off topic there. I just wanted to restate my case that there is no such thing as "instant cyling". I am kind of angry at his statement towards me. Just because he goy lucky and his fish didnt die is no reason to pass on false information on how the Nitrogen cycle works.

Yes adding established bacteria will indeed speed up the cyling process, but it will not be instant.

I hope this does not get out of hand but I wanted to defend myself.

...Bill



xxxxxx said:


> The best thing to do is to get squeezings from an established filter and add them straight to
> your filter. This way you can add fish straight away.
> 
> However: Using Rams to cycle a tank is irresponsible and wrong.
> Personally I think you are pulling our legs writing this anyway..





MonteSSSorry said:


> xxxxx said:
> 
> 
> > You are wrong my friend and any real fish keeper will agree with me.
> ...


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

MonteSS, kudos on good forum etiquette. By moving the topic to Tank Setups it is in the right spot, and the original poster from the South American forum is spared the tangent.

In my opinion and in my experience, both Similis and you are correct and incorrect. :lol:

Similis thinks that seeding "instantly cycles" a tank. It usually does not... with sensitive enough tests you can usually track a nice mini-cycle. I believe this is your point. :thumb: A good point... many cichlids (including Discus) can handle some amount of a mini-cycle but I would prefer a wider margin for error than allowing a mini-cycle with fish.

However, here are the steps that do cycle brand new equipment so quickly that one could easily say it was instant. Of course it's not, any more than a "cycled" tank is done "cycling". After all, with a "cycled tank", the addition of new fish or the removal of fish will cause a change in the population size of a tank.

With that said: my insta-cycle technique

Brand new tank, brand new substrate... 
I do a 50% water change from an existing tank, then top off with aged clean water. 
I take 50% of the filter media from a similar sized tank and add to the brand new filter (just one of the many reasons I always buy the same filters!  )

I am then free to add the equivalent to half the bioload of the "donor" tank. No measurable cycle occurs with even the most expensive test kits I could find for sale at any fish shop... 
Sure, scientific equipment could likely track something, but at that point, I've stopped caring! 
8)

So... let's all try to keep an open mind... Similis has "pushed the envelope" of cycling with fish, you and I won't likely brave this new ground... but we can all still learn! :thumb:


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## MonteSS (Dec 8, 2008)

Thanks for the clarificatuon Number6. I am always willing to learn something.

IME when I fishless cycle, I can add established bacteria and it takes about a week before the artificially added amonia is gone (0 ppm amonia), Nitrites are gone (0 ppm Nitrite), and a small amount of Nitrate (5ppm Nitrate) is present.

Still not sure how this could happen "instantly".

...Bill


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I would say number 6 is correct as well. There is really no instant anything. Easy instant pudding take a while. IOt's just a matter of definition, I believe. For some if it takes significantly less time than the normal, that is close enough to call it instant. For others it has to be much quicker to qualify for "instant". Wish we could go back to the days when people didn't feel need to attack nor to be correct. We could really discuss things better.


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

I think that you can, do some degree, instant cycle a tank...and I've done it before, and will probably do it again. Think about it. The LARGE majority of bacteria resides in the filter media. If you have a well stocked 20 gallon tank, then take half of that media, and put it in a 10 gallon tank, you would be able to fully stock that 10 gallon, because all of the bacteria is already there. Also, for minute increases in the stock...bacteria can multiply itself very quickly, equalizing the problem in almost no time. That's my stand on this issue.
Good post btw, and also good job for not overunning the post on the SA forum... :thumb:

Manoah Marton


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

*The LARGE majority of bacteria resides in the filter media.*

See, there is the problem with many postings.
Maybe in your system that statement is true, but not in my system.
I don`t believe myself alone. Many older, established tanks are not dependant on out of tank bacteria.
I only have incidental bacterial colonies in my filter media, the overwhelming bulk exists in my tank.
How do I know this you might ask.
Easy, I can swap filters and media from used to brand new with no measurable change in water quality.
I will agree, that a new tank would benefit from whatever amount of bacteria available from media out of a system like mine, only because it is more than was there before.


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

??? How is that? Like if you have a UGF or something, I understand, but bacteria thrives on oxygen rich surfaces...like filter sponges. Unless you have very good, oxygen rich (like more than normal) water, with a good current, I can't see how you can have the majority of the bacteria in your tank... :-? 
Can you explain a little more?


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

I've had tanks where the filter did not house all the bacteria (or any). I used to change out the media very frequently as it was primarily mechanical. Bacteria colonies form where they can, and they don't form where they can't... simple as that. :thumb:


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## DrTim's (Jun 8, 2010)

I have some general questions.

MonteSS
Before you say you can or cannot "Instantly Cycle" a tank don't you first have to define what you mean by Instantly Cycle? Different people may think it means different things.

Does it mean no measurable ammonia or nitrite with a full fish population (defined as the final amount of fish you would have in the tank)?

Does it mean the bacteria can handle X mg (ppm) of ammonia added daily with no ammonia or nitrite measured 24 hours later? I have seen post where people think the ammonia needs to be 0 after just a few hours - so is the time period less than 24 hours?

Does it mean neither ammonia nor nitrite get above some level say 2ppm?

Or does it mean you never ever measure ammonia or nitrite at any time?

Manoah Marton
Regarding where the bacteria live - sorry to seemingly picking nits but when you say in the filter material - again what are you talking about? If you mean the mechanical filter like a sponge or a filter pad there are very few nitrifiers living there because they are smothered by the organic material that these filters trap. Nitrifiers live where they are get access to oxygen and ammonia/nitrite and are not buried by organic material or out competed by heterotrophic bacteria.


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## Similis (Feb 14, 2007)

Hi Guys.
First of all I would like to apologize to MonteSS. I did write a ********* line in the post but
I really did not mean to offend you.

Back to the point.
Their is no scientific bases to prove that instant cycling cannot be achieved. I have done it
plenty of times.
I will list the amount out times and the fish that was added, some of which are really sensitive.
I can say hand on heart that I have done it a minimum of six times.
1 x 400l Discus tank and I added 8 2" Discus the same day.
1 x 400l Wild Tropheus Annectens Kongole tank and I added 15 2.5" fish.
1 x 400l Malawi tank. Cant remember how many fish I added though.
1 x 350 CA Cichlid tank. Added 6 Cichlids and two catfish the same day.
1 x 60l breeding tank. Added about 30 Cyanoerhabdos fry instantly.
1 x 900l+ Geophagus Dicrozosor tank. 10 Added the same time as the bacteria.
I also added 15 Tetras and a pair of wild caught Starlight Bristle nose plecos.

I am talking from my own experiences here and have not been Googling or copying other
peoples posts. IME it is the quickest and safest way to cycle a tank. I have not lost one fish
using this method.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

*??? How is that? Like if you have a UGF or something,*

I understand your confusion.
Used to be in the more bio media is better camp myself.
It was through a number of discussions on CF that got me questioning my reasoning.
People who`s experience levels were way ahead of mine put up posts much like DrTim`s response.
I thought I would put what they were saying to test.
I pulled all the bio media out of one of the 2 trays, so now I had 3 trays of mechanical.
Know what happened?
Nothing, well my water did appear a bit cleaner looking.
I had no bacterial blooms or measurable increase in ammonia/nitrite.
The general info being kicked around forums regarding bio media seems to have no basis in fact. It is just flawed info being constantly repeated.
Say a thing often enough and it becomes common knowledge, even if it is not true.

*Unless you have very good, oxygen rich (like more than normal) water, with a good current,*

Guaranteed, bacteria thrive in media that gets a good flow of nutrient/oxygen rich water, but they exist throughout your system as well.
With a well filtered tank you are providing oxygen rich water for your fish, Que No?
The same nutrients going through your filters are coming from the tank, right?
So, you are providing everything the bacteria need in the tank as well as in any outside areas.
Once you get your head around those simple facts, you can resign your commission in the Ã¢â‚¬Å"Bio ArmyÃ¢â‚¬Â


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## MonteSS (Dec 8, 2008)

Thanks Similis. All good.

Just curious if in you experience and examples, you measured amonia, Nitrite and Nitrate.

Tim. You would have more expertise than most of us in this subject.

My cycling experience is doing fishless cycles using pure amonia. I add amonia to bring the level to about 4ppm. Then add beneficial bacteria from an established tank. I test the water everyday. It usually takes about a week for Amonia level to be 0, Nitrite 0 and show signs of Nitrate. This is my definition of a cycled tank ready and safe for fish.

I cant say I have ever tried your product so have no say on how it works.

What is your recomendation to cycle a new tank?

Thanks...Bill


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

KaiserSousay said:


> The general info being kicked around forums regarding bio media seems to have no basis in fact. It is just flawed info being constantly repeated.
> Say a thing often enough and it becomes common knowledge, even if it is not true.


Your pendulum may have swung too far in the other direction...  In your standard cannister filter (with mechanical filtration before ceramic rings, etc.), it could be that the largest bacteria colony is in and on the ceramic rings. I tested this "theory" on a tank and I went through a mini-cycle once canister filter was completely removed from a tank and replaced with a HOB.

Like all good aquarium myths, bacteria living only in your filter has a basis in fact but was extrapolated to the level of being a lie


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

In freshwater the bacteria is said to be in the filter media, while in saltwater setups your bacteria is said to be in the live rock.

If you had a setup with high flow in a freshwater setup, would the concept of live rock work? From everything I have read so far about saltwater, people do not depend on their filters much at all, why do we have too for freshwater?

Just curious


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## Similis (Feb 14, 2007)

You need you filter for biological filtration in a fresh water tank as it is an exact point for
water to be biologically filtered.
In fairness bacteria does live in the water and on surface areas like stones, gravel ect but I 
dont think the concentration of the bacteria would be enough or the fact that the water does
not really pass though a medium to be filtered.

A Marine tank using the Berlin method ( Live rock ) is different. First of all the water turn over
is much higher than in a fresh water set up with a minimum requirement of 10 x ph.
When I had my Reef tanks I had a turnover of 20+ ph.
The Live rock is porous and the water does get soaked up to an extent by the rock. That is why
buying second hand Live rock can be a bad idea as it can be high in Phosphates that have been
sucked from its former home. It wont contain nitrate. This is a myth.
Marine tanks also have and extra stage to the nitrogen cycle.
Ammonia-nitrite-nitrate and finally nitrogen gas.
The nitrogen gas is produced by Anaerobic bacteria deep in the rock and evaporates from the
tank. Hence all Marine tanks using the Berlin method should be open topped.
A marine tank is only cycled when you have 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite and 0 Nitrate.
Using a biological filter with Live rock is a no no and you end up with a Nitrate factory.
You then add you fish real slowly and only should only add extra fish when you Nitrate has 
reached 0 again.

Sorry for the Marine waffle.. :roll:


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

*a mini-cycle once canister filter was completely removed from a tank and replaced with a HOB.*

Funny you should say that, as I did exactly the same thing.
The only difference was prior to 86ing the can, I pulled the one remaining tray of bio media about a week before the HOB went on.
I had no problems other than getting a bit light headed and giddy over how simple filter service got.  
*
I dont think the concentration of the bacteria would be enough or the fact that the water does 
not really pass though a medium to be filtered. *

My overstocked 55g would argue with that.
I have changed filtration media so often that if the bacteria was centrally located my tank should have gone through a series of cycles, which never happened.
I now run a HOT 250 with the micron cartridge and a Penguin350B for total filtration.
The micron cartridge gets a 12-18 hour soak in a mild bleach/water bath weekly. I have 2, so one is in use, while the other soaks and airs out for swap time. About a week.
In the Penguin I use 6X9in scotch brite scrub pads that also get a soak between usage.
What about the bio wheels, well they have been swapped around as well, I have spares. 
Last time was due to a lighting change that turned them into revolving algae farms.  
Their main purpose, for me is the oxygen they add to the water.
That is why I can say, with confidence, that any biological activity in my filtration is incidental and short lived.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

*KaiserSousay*

I do not have enough experience to even give my opinion on this subject, but according to your thinking the live rock method could be applied to a freshwater tank correct?


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*ahud*
it can, but there are so many better options for freshwater like algae scrubbers...


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

I think I get what everyone's saying. I like it how you all proved your points with personal experiences. This has been a very interesting thread.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

A problem with instant cycling methinks is what defines an instant cycle? Adding 4ppm ammonia is not the same as adding "live" stock.

Question ... why 4ppm and not 1 ppm or 7 ppm. Where did 4ppm come from?

I have in the past and also recently instant cycled a tank with 14 feet of stock, not sure how many ppm ammonia that is but the fact is no measurable amounts of ammonia or trItes were found with the drop kits I use.

I used tetra SafeStart but prolly and most likely would have gotten the same results using DR Tims. Here is my point ... if instead of adding all those fully matured Haps and Mbuna I had added 4ppm ammonia would I have gotten zero readings for ammonia and trItes.

BB will strive where ever it gets a foothold. It can be in the filter media but can also strive just as well in the tank. Now if that tank just so happens to be bare bottom with no 'scaping I would consider keeping bio media in the filter.


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## Similis (Feb 14, 2007)

KaiserSousay said:


> *a mini-cycle once canister filter was completely removed from a tank and replaced with a HOB.*
> 
> *
> I dont think the concentration of the bacteria would be enough or the fact that the water does
> ...


Could you post more info on your tank. I would love to know how it works, thanks.


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## DrTim's (Jun 8, 2010)

Dublin - it does not matter is the tank is freshwater or saltwater the conversion of nitrate to dinitrogen (nitrogen gas) can occur in both. This is maybe going off the post but



> The nitrogen gas is produced by Anaerobic bacteria deep in the rock and evaporates from the
> tank. Hence all Marine tanks using the Berlin method should be open topped.
> A marine tank is only cycled when you have 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite and 0 Nitrate.
> Using a biological filter with Live rock is a no no and you end up with a Nitrate factory.


The above statements are quite common in regards to Berlin filtered tanks but they are not supported by any available experimental data (of which there is very little). It sounds great in theory but I actually put it to the test but cutting open live rock and sampling for anaerobic bacteria using DNA methods - we found none. We also did a variety of experiments comparing live rock filtration to biofiltration etc. and found that the key is the surface of the live rock where ammonia assimilation dominates over nitrification and denitrification. I presented these results at a few marine conferences maybe 5 to 7 years ago.

I have never read or heard that one needs 0 nitrate to have a fully cycled marine aquarium.

I always read that using a biological filter with Live rock is a no no and will just produce nitrate but as my experiments showed this was not the case and besides there is really no logic to the statement because the nitrifying bacteria don't know they can 'only' live on the biological filter. They will live anywhere they can so if a tank is going to be a nitrate factory it will happen with or without a biological filter.


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## Similis (Feb 14, 2007)

DrTim's said:


> I always read that using a biological filter with Live rock is a no no and will just produce nitrate but as my experiments showed this was not the case and besides there is really no logic to the statement because the nitrifying bacteria don't know they can 'only' live on the biological filter. They will live anywhere they can so if a tank is going to be a nitrate factory it will happen with or without a biological filter.


IME and any other Marine Reef keepers I have spoken to, 
using a biological filter with live rock is a no no.
You will always have Nitrate which you dont want in a reef tank.
What you are trying to achieve is Equilibrium in your live rock. This is when you are able to keep Ammonia, Nitrite and even Nitrate at 0 mg/l.
The correct way to add your fish is to test your water and wait until No3 is zero before adding 
your first fish. After x amount of time you test you water again. If you Nitrate is 0 then you can add another fish and so an.

Of course bacteria will live any where. I never said it didnt. You have live sand etc etc.
But by using a biological filter in your tank you are increasing the time needed to achieve
Equilibrium in the tank up to the stage where your Live rock just cant catch up. Hence the
nitrate factory.
The live rock produces nitrogen gas plus Deep sand beds will keep your nitrogen down too.
There are now bio pellets you can buy that give you zero nitrates and zero Phosphates.
I have tried them but did not like them. Others have had great success with them.
The main problems I see with them is..
1 Hydrogen Sulphide is produced.
2 They reduce the pH by removing oxygen.
You could use these with a biological filter and never have to use live rock.
Live rock is not the be all and end all of Marine reef keeping. It is just the most popular and my
personal choice to keeping Marines and I will stick to the points I made until convinced other wise.

Could you post your findings on the live rock please. I would love to see them.
Please be honest with the results. 
Apart from bacteria what other signs of Anaerobic life did you look for.
Thanks.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Similis said:


> IME and any other Marine Reef keepers I have spoken to,
> using a biological filter with live rock is a no no.
> You will always have Nitrate which you dont want in a reef tank.
> What you are trying to achieve is Equilibrium in your live rock.


I keep SPS, LPS, softies, fish and inverts. My clownfish breed, my corals have overrun each other where I have to trim corals as one would trim plants back.

No reef system must be nitrate free. It must be low nitrate, but not zero. Under 5ppm works very well for my system. I have two sumps on the go on my main reef show tank. One has a mechanical filter sock, biological filtration, and a skimmer... the other is an algae scrubber.

So now you've spoken to a Marine Reef Keeper with a different opinion. I'm also not alone, and you could join me on Reefcentral for more opinions. :wink:


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## Similis (Feb 14, 2007)

Nitrate free is probably impossible to achieve as there will always be bio load entering the
tank. Using the test kits bought in shops I was able to get a reading of zero from them.
I used both Salifert and JBL.
Using an electronic meter it was just under one.
I am looking at it as a hobbiest and using the tools available to us. I am sure if we spent
hundreds on scientific equipment we would get way more accurate results.


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## Stellaluna (May 8, 2006)

I keep natural aquariums without any filtration, and they are, of course, cycled, so bacteria is quite obviously present. No filter - no water flow - but a cycled tank.

This is doable with plants providing the oxygen, but movement of the water is not required (or any type of filter media, either, for that matter) to grow bacteria, at least in this scenario.


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## Similis (Feb 14, 2007)

Stellaluna said:


> I keep natural aquariums without any filtration, and they are, of course, cycled, so bacteria is quite obviously present. No filter - no water flow - but a cycled tank.
> 
> This is doable with plants providing the oxygen, but movement of the water is not required (or any type of filter media, either, for that matter) to grow bacteria, at least in this scenario.


I am in intrigued by this.
Where did you get the idea from and how long have you been running the Aquarium like this.
How often do you do water changes.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*Similis*

My tank actually reached an unintentional high of 20ppm nitrate and corals still grew like crazy... I did experience some negatve issues, so of course the solution was to drop the nitrate way down to around 5ppm... so I'll say again... your suggestion that a reef tank can't run with nitrates isn't true. Some fish, some inverts, and some corals are stressed by it and so Reef Keepers avoid it. That's just common sense... we WANT certain species in the tanks, so we have to provide the correct environment for them. But... what if I simply changed my wants.

Stellaluna, I've had similar tanks but there always had to be some water movement. I managed this by nothing more than an airstone and simple plastic tube, but I needed some or else my little "experiment" grew a very thick biofilm on top that choked off gas exchange. Your tank has zero water movement?  Very interesting.


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## Stellaluna (May 8, 2006)

Similis said:


> Where did you get the idea from and how long have you been running the Aquarium like this.
> How often do you do water changes.


Well I'm not sure why I decided to do it - perhaps on a forum like this (used to be very very active on general aquarium forums) - but when you think about people keeping fish prior to electricity you can see it will work. Think about fish bowls! Victorian aquariums were quite elaborate and decorative, and, of course, had no mechanical filtration.

I have had mine set up for years. Weekly 50% PWCs like the rest of my tanks. I do use a heater in the winter, as our house gets pretty chilly, but otherwise the only thing plugged in is a light. If I had better windows in my house I'd not even need that!


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## Stellaluna (May 8, 2006)

Number6 said:


> Stellaluna, I've had similar tanks but there always had to be some water movement. I managed this by nothing more than an airstone and simple plastic tube, but I needed some or else my little "experiment" grew a very thick biofilm on top that choked off gas exchange. Your tank has zero water movement?  Very interesting.


One thing I have learned over the years is that you take two identical tanks and put them in two different homes and you'll get two very different sets of results, lol. There are so many factors going on in aquariums that we can't measure or account for, so I could not tell you why I never have a biofilm of any kind, or at least not one that I can detect or that causes problems. I keep them very lightly stocked, with things like Endler's, guppies, shrimp and snails, and that kind of thing. Plenty of plants and strong lighting.


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## DrTim's (Jun 8, 2010)

Similis

First, we might need to find another place to have this discussion as we have hijacked this thread and are discussing marine aquaria on the cichlid forum.

Second, I am always honest - probably too honest and that gets me in trouble with the 'experts'. I know what everyone says but the fact is no one has ever tested to see if what they are saying (their theory) matches reality. I am the only one that I know of and it was not to sell anything it was the result of a challenge made during the comments after a talk I gave at MACNA on Los Angeles year ago.

The original thinking comes from an early Sprung and Delbeek book where they quote the late Peter Wilkens as their source for the quote that goes something like "biological filters should not be used on reef tanks because they produce nitrates". Once in their book it spread like the gospel. Unfortunately, Wilkens never wrote the quote they use in neither the English or German versions of his books.

Anyways, I think I may have a video of the talk and it was published in a SeaScope so I will try to post it but until next week as there is a major trade show in the US this week and weekend and i will be busy there.

I personally would never set-up a marine aquarium without live rock - and you are right you want to achieve a balance with the fish load. My only desire was to determine the actually processes occurring in the live rock - if its denitrification fine but the data was the data and we found no evidence of denitrification.

As I said I will find and post on my website and I when available I will update you.


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## Similis (Feb 14, 2007)

Number6 said:


> *Similis*
> 
> My tank actually reached an unintentional high of 20ppm nitrate and corals still grew like crazy... I did experience some negatve issues, so of course the solution was to drop the nitrate way down to around 5ppm... so I'll say again... your suggestion that a reef tank can't run with nitrates isn't true. Some fish, some inverts, and some corals are stressed by it and so Reef Keepers avoid it. That's just common sense... we WANT certain species in the tanks, so we have to provide the correct environment for them. But... what if I simply changed my wants.
> 
> Stellaluna, I've had similar tanks but there always had to be some water movement. I managed this by nothing more than an airstone and simple plastic tube, but I needed some or else my little "experiment" grew a very thick biofilm on top that choked off gas exchange. Your tank has zero water movement?  Very interesting.


Hi Number 6.
You have mis understood me.
I never said a Reef tank cannot run with nitrates. What I said was when you are cycling a
Marine tank you should wait till the tank is at zero before adding your first fish.
Then wait till it is at zero before adding your second fish and so on. This saves a lot of hassle
in the future. I should know, I have had the dreaded Hair Algae and a Cyano bloom that lasted
about 8 weeks. Just because I posted the rules does not mean I followed them to a T myself :lol:

I have had Nitrate readings of 40 mg/l in a reef tank. I did sort the problem out with massive
water changes and buying a bigger Skimmer etc and most of my Corals did fine but others like
the SPS produced too many Polyps and turned Brown.
One of the reasons I returned to Cichlid keeping was because my Nitrates went through the 
roof. I panicked and gave all my Corals away for
practically nothing. In the end I bought a new tank and started again.
I let the live rock die in a sump in the garden. I forgot to plug in the heater and it never really
returned to its former glory. I took nearly three months to cycle the tank and then I tried the
bio pellets and it was a disaster.
Long story short.. I sorted the problem out and my new reef was up and running and doing
well but it was costing a fortune to really do what I wanted to do with the tank.
Anyway.. Four years and Three Marine tanks later I decided to pack it in.
I had achieved what I wanted to do and the lure of my first love, Cichlids and Catfish grew too
strong..
I know have two SA tanks up and running.

Sorry for going off tread. I will read the rest of the posts and get back to the subject.

Here are some videos of my tanks..

This is my current SA setup with Geophagus Dicrosozor and some Tetras.






Here is my Marine tank before I stripped it down, yes I am a big fool for doing so.






If you want to see any more of my tanks just go to Youtube and search Nerdkiller 75.


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## Similis (Feb 14, 2007)

DrTim's said:


> Similis
> 
> First, we might need to find another place to have this discussion as we have hijacked this thread and are discussing marine aquaria on the cichlid forum.
> 
> Second, I am always honest - probably too honest and that gets me in trouble with the 'experts'. I know what everyone says but the fact is no one has ever tested to see if what they are saying (their theory) matches reality. I am the only one that I know of and it was not to sell anything it was the result of a challenge made during the comments after a talk I gave at MACNA on Los Angeles year ago.


Hi Dr Tim.
I did not mean to question your integrity.
I always speak from experience myself and if I am using
a book for reference ( which I never do ) I would state it in my post. I am the highest respect
for people who are honest and speak from experience only..
If I send you my e-mail will you send me the video please.


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