# 55 gal SA tank: Laetacara dorsigera & Apistogramma borel



## MLudl (Oct 12, 2004)

Hi everyone! It's been many years since I've posted here, but I'm setting up a new tank, and thought I would share and ask a few questions. I've been in the hobby for like 20 years, keeping lots of different fish, but mostly cichlids.

The tank is a standard 55 gallon that was set up as a reef for like 10 years. Unfortunately I lost everything in a power outage last winter when I wasn't home(including a 14 year old gold bar maroon clownfish  ). Anyway, I've been debating what to do with the tank ever since. I knew it was going to have some kind of cichlids in it, I just wasn't sure what. The tank is reef ready and drains into an Ecosystem sump in the stand. There is also 15 gallon tank in the stand that is plumbed into the system. This was a refugium for the reef tank, although now it really just adds 15 gallons of water. So the total water capacity is something like 55+15+10(sump)=80 gallons. Subtract decorations and substrate, and probably around 70 gallons of water.

Substrate is dark sand, there are 4 good size pieces of moponi(sp?) wood and a couple of rock piles that kind of split the tank into 3 territories. Plants right now are only a couple of Anubius on the wood, but more will be added. I also plan to put some plants into the Ecosystem sump and let them grow out of the water. Current Inhabitants are 21 Red Eyed Tetras and 7 Panda Cory Cats. Both are doing well and enjoying the space.

Now for the cichlids! I am thinking about the following: a pair of Laetacara dorsigera and a pair or trio of Apistogramma borelli. Also, I have a small pair of albino Kribs in another tank that I am thinking of adding. I'm usually not a fan of albino fish, but there's something about the kribs that I like, I think it's that they are not just white, they still have their normal color patterns, just over a white background. Anyway, I know their not SA, but I think they would get along with the above group. I am open to other suggestions as well, but would like to stick with larger dwarf species.

I will post some pictures soon, but the water is pretty brown right now from the wood, as it's new and leaching into the water. I've been doing 50% water changes weekly, and it's getting better, but I think it's going to be a while until it's nice and clear!

Sorry for the long post! Feel free to throw any suggestions at me!
Thanks,
Mark


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## Chromedome52 (Jul 25, 2009)

_Apistogramma borelli _will be killed by _Laetacara_. They are probably one of the smallest Apistos in the hobby, and not overly aggressive. I've bred _L. curviceps_, _dorsigera_, and _araguaiae_, and they not only get much larger than that particular Apisto, they tend to be very territorial.

I do not like mixing African and SA Dwarf Cichlids, their social signalling systems are so different that they end up fighting too much. However, if there is a SA Dwarf that could take on Kribs, it would be the _Laetacara_.


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

Won't comment on compatibility as I don't have experience with these two species together, but I'm not sure if A. borelli is "one of the smallest Apistos". I had a male that grew to about 4", and thick.

video:


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## MLudl (Oct 12, 2004)

Chromedome52 said:


> _Apistogramma borelli _will be killed by _Laetacara_. They are probably one of the smallest Apistos in the hobby, and not overly aggressive. I've bred _L. curviceps_, _dorsigera_, and _araguaiae_, and they not only get much larger than that particular Apisto, they tend to be very territorial.
> 
> I do not like mixing African and SA Dwarf Cichlids, their social signalling systems are so different that they end up fighting too much. However, if there is a SA Dwarf that could take on Kribs, it would be the _Laetacara_.


Interesting comments. From my research, I thought A. Borellii was one of the larger apistos, reaching at least 3"? I also read a number of reports of L. dorsigera being a real wimp. Thanks for the comments, and I will continue my research.

Mark


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## lil_gold_ram (Mar 1, 2011)

I think your kribs will be fine, it really depends on the individual fish, I had 2 that I traded in because they were really bossy, but the 2 I have now are fine, in fact my male apisto bosses them around once in a while. I'm not saying my kribs are angels but compared to the last 2 I had they are much calmer. It's worth a try.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

I keep and breed apistos and pelvicachromis. In the past I have kept and bred Laetacara dorsigera, curviceps and sp. "Bolivien".

My advice, heavily plant the 55 gallon tank. You can tie java fern and anubis to the mopani root wood. Try and find some branchy pieces and tie java moss to them.

If you want to try and mix Laetacara and Apistogramma, try and find some true Laetacara curviceps. 90% of the "curviceps" I see on USA forums are dorsigera. Dorsigera are more aggressive than curviceps and will kill most apistogramma. I would look at some of the larger apistogramma species like agassizii or cacatuoides to mix with curviceps.

I would not add any pelvicachromis pair in to a tank with any South American dwarf cichlids. If the pelvicachromis pair spawned, they would kill the SA dwarfs quite easy.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

*lil_gold_ram* please stop giving advice in regards to dwarf cichlids. I find myself disagreeing with most of the advice you give. That is all.


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## Bruce Haynes (Sep 8, 2010)

I've got a number of dorsigera and find they are pretty aggressive only when defending fry and eggs...usually they are pretty mellow, at least mine are. I have never kept them with apisto's so I cannot speak to that, but trust CD and DFF's advice . I agree with ChromeDome and DeadFish Floating...never mix African and SA's it is a recipe for diaster. I have kribs too and they are very aggressive and can and will kill other fish...especially if they are spawning. I have had them kill an entire tank full of dithers when they were brooding. Very bad idea to mix them.

Hey ChromeDome and DeadFish Floating: What's the secret to keeping dorsi fry alive...? I've tried everything I can think of and feel lucky if I can raise 5 out of hundreds.


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## Chromedome52 (Jul 25, 2009)

Bruce, sent you a PM.

The _borelli _in that video is the largest I've ever seen, but it does not appear to be 4 inches; I'd say slightly over 3, at best. He also looks very old, from the humping of his back. I've rarely seen _borelli _males over 2 inches, and they often spawn at much smaller sizes than other Apistos, IME.

Cockatoos I've seen 3-4 inches on a regular basis. They tend to be one of the more aggressive Apistos, and might get along with _Laetacara _in a 55. However, I consider the many domestic strains to be rather garish, and wilds are hard to find.

Aggression in _Laetacara _has been debated greatly. Recently someone suggested that domestically raised individuals are less aggressive than wild caught specimens. I would have to agree, and _dorsigera _probably has more domestically raised fish in the hobby than the other species. However, the probabilities are against the Bluntheads and Apistos co-existing, so if you try it, be prepared to move one or the other, JIC.

Edit to add: The other major difference is that Laetacara are bulkier than Apistos, and have more weight to hit with in a fight. That results in more damage.


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## MLudl (Oct 12, 2004)

OK, from the replies so far it seems my original plan is not a good one! So I will ask for suggestions. I would like to stick with dwarfs that are relatively easy to find. It sounds like I should pick a couple of species from either SA or Africa. If I want African, maybe some A. tomassi to go with the kribs? I actually have a couple of H. lifalilli, but I fear they will be too much for most of the dwarfs.

If I decide SA, I'm not sure. I'm not a big fan of either the aggazizi or the Cockatoos. Anything else that I am missing?

I am actually going to a couple stores today to see what they have or can get as far as dwarfs go.

Thanks,
Mark


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## Chromedome52 (Jul 25, 2009)

My experience with _Anomalochromis _and _Pelvicachromis _in the same tank is that the _thomasi _will dominate! Those little buggers are tough, but while they will dominate, they will not go all out for the kill. They are more open area spawners, like _Laetacara_, where the Kribs would be taking caves. Therefore competition for space can be controlled by putting the caves to one end, and some acceptable wood or stone sites at the other.

In other words, I like that idea.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Chromedome52 said:


> My experience with _Anomalochromis _and _Pelvicachromis _in the same tank is that the _thomasi _will dominate! Those little buggers are tough, but while they will dominate, they will not go all out for the kill. They are more open area spawners, like _Laetacara_, where the Kribs would be taking caves. Therefore competition for space can be controlled by putting the caves to one end, and some acceptable wood or stone sites at the other.
> 
> In other words, I like that idea.


That's how I would set it up too ... smooth river stones at one end, driftwood caves at the other end ... sight breaks in the middle. I wouldn't dare try the _A. thomasi_ with the smaller _Pelvicachromis_ species like _P. taenitus_, _P. roloffi_, or _P. subocellatus._

But with the larger, feistier Pelvicachromis, I'd wager it has a good shot if the tank is large enough.

I had my _A. thomasi_ dominate dwarf pikes before, and they weren't too fond of the rummynose as I recall. They are a tough little fish, but then they are in the jewel family so ...


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

Chromedome52 said:


> The _borelli _in that video is the largest I've ever seen, but it does not appear to be 4 inches; I'd say slightly over 3, at best. He also looks very old, from the humping of his back. I've rarely seen _borelli _males over 2 inches, and they often spawn at much smaller sizes than other Apistos, IME.


I know how big he was because I measured him. Unfortunately I passed the trio to a friend last year, so we'll have to do this the hard way.

In the picture below, the length of the red line is 16.8% of the white line. The red line should represent the _minimal_ length of the fish, because he was not perfectly parallel to the front glass, and not perfectly horizontal. The white line represents the length of the tank, which is 24". You do the math.










He was not old. He was well taken care of. He bred with both females in the tank constantly, often at the same time. I have a few videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/peathenster (scroll down to last year's videos).

My experience with dwarfs is limited, but of the 6 Apisto species I've tried, this is easily the largest. The other 5 are: _A. pertensis_, _A. macmasteri_, _A. agassizi_ "Alenquer", _A. cacatuoides_ and _A. rotpunkt_.

I'm not arguing _A. borelli_ is a large Apisto. species.

All I said was this:



peathenster said:


> I'm not sure if A. borelli is "one of the smallest Apistos".


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

double post.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Where do I start? OK, I'm more than a little drunk and need to sobber up before bed. It's been a massive week for football for my state. Queensland won the State of Origin rugby league on Wednesday and I've just got home from watching the Queensland Reds win the Super 15 rugby union title. To put it in to perspective both my home town football teams just won thier respective Superbowls.



Bruce Haynes said:


> Hey ChromeDome and DeadFishFloating: What's the secret to keeping dorsi fry alive...? I've tried everything I can think of and feel lucky if I can raise 5 out of hundreds.


My pair were wild caught from Paraguay. They were a juvenile mated pair when I bought them from my LFS as they had young fry in the tank. Like all three of the Laetacara variants I have kept and bred, they were very tolerant of water conditions and I kept them in straight tap water that was aged in a water barrell with peat. Parameters; PH 7.6, Hardness mg/L 60, TDS mg/L 140. Tank temperature would average around 25 degrees celcius for 7 months of the year, and get as high as 31/32 degrees celcius in the middle of summer for 2 months.

I would feed them with live bbs from the first day of free swimming and let the parents do the rest. The adults were super aggressive when they didn't have fry. The male killed two species of apistos before I gave up trying to keep other dwarfs with them. When they had fry, they managed to kill almost all of the 20 Greenfire tetras I had in the tank (36"x18"x18") in less than 2 days.

I never had to try to hard to breed and raise Laetacara, as I found them pretty easy and great parents.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

*MLudl* I'm only new to keeping West African dwarf cichlids, and would be very intersted in how a mix of Pelvicachromis and Anomalochromis would go.

I've kept dwarf South Americans for the last four years, so have a little experience with them. In a 55 gallon tank I would happily keep 6 Bolivian rams with a pair of Laetacara. If you wanted to try an Apistogramma species, the easiest to keep would be one of the commercial strains of cacatuoides.

After cacatuoides, you really have to start paying attention to your water parameters when it comes to apistos. I never had any luck untill I moved to using rain water mixed with tap water, or even straight rain water. All my rain water is filtered through a home made carbon filter (really it's just filtered through activated carbon into the water barrel).


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

*Chromedome52* and *peathenster*.

That is the largest borellii I have ever seen or heard of. Traditionally, borellii are considered one of the smallest apistos in the hobby, males are usually expected to only grow to around 2 inches SL. However it is common knoweldge that many cichlid species grow larger in home aquariums, than what are found in the wild.


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## MLudl (Oct 12, 2004)

OK everyone, thanks for all of the warnings and suggestions. Like usual, I used some and went against some of the advice, sorry! I decided against the A. borelli. I have never kept apistos before, so I decided this was not the right tank to start. So here is what I did(Keep in mind the tank has been set up for a while and is already cycled):

I first added 20 Red Eyed Tetras. I like the look of them, and they are a little bigger than something like a neon so should be better able to handle the cichlids. I also added 7 Panda cory cats. About a week later, I ventured to a couple of stores about 30 minutes away. One store actually had A. thomasi, but only one left. But, they also had 5 Laetacara curviceps, at least that is what they were labeled. They were decent size (about 1.5" TL) and looked very nice. I guess you can figure out what happened! I picked out what looked like the largest male and largest female and took them home. Interestingly, the female is actually bigger than the male. My albino kribs have been happily living in a heavily planted 10 gallon tank for a few months now. So I added the kribs and the Laetacara to the tank at the same time. SO far everyone is eating well and getting along very well.

In fact, I was out of town for a week (just got back Sunday), and everyone is still great, although a bit hungry! Everyone ate well, and then I noticed the female krib going into a cave inside one of the wood pieces right in the middle front of the tank. So I got out my flashlight and took a look. Sure enough, there is a batch of eggs inside! The kribs chase away anyone that gets too close, but are not overly aggressive to anyone. I think it helps that there is alot going on with the tetras and cories.

I'm not sure what species of Laetacara I have. When they color up a bit more, I will post some pictures to see what everyone thinks.

Thanks again for everyones advice, and I will update this thread as things move along.

Mark


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