# Looking for 3rd mbuna species recommendation (75g)



## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

I'm in the early research & planning phase for a new 75-gallon mbuna tank. I'd like to do a slightly modified version of the "purple and yellow" cookie cutter plan:

Pseudotropheus acei (6)
Labidochromis caeruleus (8)
?????? (6)

What would be a good 3rd species to add for a bit more variety and contrast? I don't want anything too aggressive. Thanks for any suggestions!


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

A barred Cynotilapia would offer contrast with an attractive interesting Mbuna. Females are kinda drab if that offends you.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

noki said:


> A barred Cynotilapia would offer contrast with an attractive interesting Mbuna. Females are kinda drab if that offends you.


Except for maybe Cynotilapia sp "Hara", where the females can be pretty nice too.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Agree on the hara, but when I had both hara and acei I found I was wanting more contrast. I would either bump up the counts or go with the barred Cynotilapia (like Cynotilapia zebroides Cobue) or go with rusties (Iodotropheus sprengerae).


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

Aw man, this is a hard decision! I like the rusties for color contrast, but I like Cynotilapia zebroides because none of my other selections are barred. What should I do?!

I'm still open to other ideas.... :-?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

I've never liked rusties to be honest. Most aren't that nice, and are more aggressive than most think.

You could always do Hara, Labs and Scieanochromis fryeri. But the females are silver with the fryeri.

A fish that isn't easy to find, but might make a great contrast is sold as Melanochromis parallelus in the hobby, but is actually Melanochromis loriae. I had these a few years back, and they were pretty might, and had great colour and contrast. 
http://malawi.si/Malawi/Mbuna/Melanochr ... index.html


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## Idech (Nov 8, 2020)

Would Maingano be a good option ? They look really nice and they have stripes.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

Yeah, I considered Maingano, but I thought they might be hard to find. Are they commonly available?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Maingano are super, but not what you would call peaceful. Still workable. Try for 1m:7f. Always a good idea to order online (from a reputable vendor) for variety and quality and price.


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## fishboy75 (Jan 16, 2020)

Another black and blue barred one to consider is Metriaclima sp Dolphin aka Giant Demasoni. I know others have said they are skittish but I haven't really encountered that with mine yet. I have had mine 4 months now. I have 10 of them growing out in a 55 with 9 Yellow tail Acei. They were 1- 1.25 inches long when I got them compared to the Acei which were 1.5 in. They are definitely a more dominant species than the Acei and have outgrown them in this period. My largest are about 3.25 inches now. They are definitely fiestier and more aggressive towards each other than the Acei but I haven't seen any real damage inflicted and there are no fish exhibiting signs of stress. They will retreat to the rocks if I make sudden movements around the tank but come out eagerly to feed and will remain out with me watching. Their patterns and colors have intensified as they've grown and the 3 largest males typically show dominant colors all the time. They are definitely an interesting fish to watch as well, constantly picking the substrate for food and grazing on algae from the rocks and glass. Good luck with whatever you decide!


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> Maingano are super, but not what you would call peaceful. Still workable. Try for 1m:7f. Always a good idea to order online (from a reputable vendor) for variety and quality and price.


Is there a list of reputable vendors somewhere? What m:f ratio would you recommend for the P. acei and the L. caeruleus? Or doesn't it matter with those species because they're more peaceful?


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Members can PM you with suggestions for vendors that may do mail order if that is something you are interested in doing though may be limited by current weather.

Some other options are local fish clubs with members that may have what you are looking for. Unfortunately all clubs are currently not holding in person meetings. Some are on Facebook if you know the club link but you can check the Clubs link at the top of the page to narrow down if they have a website.

I'll PM you with a couple suggestions for NE Ohio.


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## Idech (Nov 8, 2020)

Smeagol said:


> What m:f ratio would you recommend for the P. acei and the L. caeruleus? Or doesn't it matter with those species because they're more peaceful?


I'm new to Mbunas but I just want to warn you that just because a specie is said to be less aggressive, it doesn't mean all the individual fish are. My most aggressive fish is a labidochromis caeruleus. He is the boss tank and a total tyrant. He is absolutely beautiful but I almost regret having chosen that specie.

My aceis (white tail) on the other hand, are exactly as they are described : peaceful, most of the time.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Idech said:


> Smeagol said:
> 
> 
> > What m:f ratio would you recommend for the P. acei and the L. caeruleus? Or doesn't it matter with those species because they're more peaceful?
> ...


One of the problems with many Yellow Lab strains, is that they've been crossed with red zebras, which tends to make them more aggressive. I don't know if that is the case with yours, or if you've just got a pain in the butt.


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## Idech (Nov 8, 2020)

I think mine is just a severe case of « pain in the butt » as I buy from a cichlid store that sells purebreds only as far as I know.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Fogelhund said:


> One of the problems with many Yellow Lab strains, is that they've been crossed with red zebras, which tends to make them more aggressive. I don't know if that is the case with yours, or if you've just got a pain in the butt.


Plus one.

Between the Cynotilapia and the maingano, I am always going to go with the more brilliant blue on both males and females of the maingano.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

I keep coming back to these three species for the 75g I'll be setting up soon:

_Pseudotropheus acei
Labidochromis caeruleus
Pseudotropheus cyaneorhabdos (maingano)_

How many of each of these would you recommend for a 75g? (I haven't decided on filtration yet, but I will definitely be over-filtering.)

Thanks!


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## Ice Man (May 20, 2019)

Fogelhund said:


> Idech said:
> 
> 
> > Smeagol said:
> ...


Interesting on the yellow labs as I have had a few groups of them now and they have always seemed more aggressive than their reputation, The Acei I have had have all behaved well even with multiple males, caveat being I have never kept them long enough for them to get big, I seem to keep changing my mind when they get about 4" I suspect longer term my experience might be a bit different


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Shoot for 20 individuals after any troublesome fish (males?) are removed. I would go 1m:7f on the maingano and divide up the remaining 12 slots between the labs and acei according to your preference.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> Shoot for 20 individuals after any troublesome fish (males?) are removed. I would go 1m:7f on the maingano and divide up the remaining 12 slots between the labs and acei according to your preference.


Thanks. That agrees with my own thinking. But how do I get 1m:7f mainganos? If I buy juveniles, they will be unsexed, right? So, are you saying I should buy a lot _more _than 8 of them to start out, and then plan on removing a bunch of troublesome males?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

What I do is buy 14 or more and hope to get 7 females. When you work with cichlids long enough, you end up with an extra tank or two and a relationship with a LFS who will take your adults for store credit (wholesale price which is about 1/3 of the selling price at the store).

There are fewer and fewer brick and mortar LFS that are not chains and are owned by cichlid (or at least fish) fanatics. And with COVID there are not as many fish auctions as before. It's a tough time for the hobby.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

Should I add one species at a time? Or should I add them all at once? I've read a lot of conflicting views on this question.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If you cycle with ammonia before adding fish you can add them all at once. This has advantages in a toxin-free environment for the fish right off the bat, and in not giving any species advantages or disadvantages in finding hiding spots or claiming territories, no one has the home court advantage, and shipping is cheaper on a large order of fish rather than ordering 8 fish 3 times.

Before the cycle was well understood and people cycled with fish, adding a small groups over a period of time made more sense to minimize toxins the fish would have to survive.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

Yep, I always cycle with ammonia. It was that whole "home court advantage" thing that I wasn't sure about. Thanks for all your help!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

In addition, if you add only one group initially, wait a month and add another group, you risk a mini cycle with each group and expose the fish to toxins again. As opposed to no toxins whatsoever if you first cycle with ammonia, and then add all the fish.

You can only use the ammonia method before any fish are in the tank, it does not work between additions because it is toxic to the fish.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> Shoot for 20 individuals after any troublesome fish (males?) are removed. I would go 1m:7f on the maingano and divide up the remaining 12 slots between the labs and acei according to your preference.


Now that I'm working on my rockscape, something occurred to me.... I imagine that those "troublesome male" manganos will be impossible to catch & remove when they are able to take advantage of all the nooks & crannies in the rock piles. So how do you do it? I don't want to have to remove and re-stack my entire rockscape every week while I sort out the m:f ratio. (Even if I did remove all my rocks, how would I get them back down onto the glass bottom so they're not resting on the sand?) Is this a legitimate concern, or am I making it more complicated than it really is? I kind of had my heart set on getting mangano, but maybe I should reconsider. Any thoughts/advice?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If you set your expectations that you will have to remove the rocks from your tank from time-to-time, you will find it is really not that big of a chore. Not just extra males, but holding females or sick fish, etc. Two hours and done for a six foot tank. You just swish them back down to the glass.

Quite often you can divide off 1/3 of the tank and just remove rocks in that section. Shoo the fish into that section for netting.

You are not likely to have to remove extra males for six to 12 months, and then it would not be weekly...you might remove one every month or couple of months, and you might find an extra or two might be tolerated.

The same is true for any mbuna and really for any African...get six and remove extras when a pair forms for Tangs, etc.


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## Idech (Nov 8, 2020)

Smeagol said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> > Shoot for 20 individuals after any troublesome fish (males?) are removed. I would go 1m:7f on the maingano and divide up the remaining 12 slots between the labs and acei according to your preference.
> ...


That's the exact problem/dilemma I'm having. I have rocks piled up to the surface almost and there is no way I can catch any fish in there without removing everything. So far the best plan I have is to remove the rocks only once, when/if I have way too many fries that survive, and then change the fish to all males so I don't have that problem anymore. These guys are crazy breeders. All my females were holding eggs in less than a month. I'll be in big trouble if many of them survive.

Cichlids tanks sure do keep you on your toes, lol !


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> ..... You just swish them back down to the glass ......


That seems contradictory to the standard advice. If it's that easy to just swish the rocks back down on to the glass, then why does everyone make such a big deal about placing them on the glass _before _adding sand in the first place?


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

Idech said:


> ...... These guys are crazy breeders. All my females were holding eggs in less than a month. ......


Which guys are you referring to specifically? Which species?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Smeagol said:


> why does everyone make such a big deal about placing them on the glass _before _adding sand in the first place?


 One less step and less chance for grains under the rock. The swishing does make a mess to really get to the glass. But if there were no way to do this, you would only be able to set up a tank one time and you would have to leave it for life. :thumb:


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## Idech (Nov 8, 2020)

Smeagol said:


> Idech said:
> 
> 
> > ...... These guys are crazy breeders. All my females were holding eggs in less than a month. ......
> ...


White tail acei, demasoni, astatotilapia latifasciata (lake Victoria hap). Yellow labs, I'm not sure but one might be holding.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

Idech said:


> Smeagol said:
> 
> 
> > Idech said:
> ...


You have demasoni in the same tank with acei and yellow labs?


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> Shoot for 20 individuals after any troublesome fish (males?) are removed.... What I do is buy 14 or more and hope to get 7 females. When you work with cichlids long enough, you end up with an extra tank or two and a relationship with a LFS who will take your adults for store credit


Does this approach (i.e., buying many more juveniles than you ultimately want to have in the tank, and then reducing their numbers) apply to _all _mbuna or just the highly aggressive species? Case in point, the "purple and yellow" cookie cutter setup for 75g, which is supposed to be "great for beginners," suggests the following two options:

*8 adult acei and 10 adult yellow labs (total 18)
-OR-
14 juvenile acei and 16 juvenile yellow labs (total 30)
*
The logic seems to suggest that, _even with these relatively "peaceful" species, _you should still expect to remove 12 out of 30 fish. That's an attrition rate of 40%! Is this typical? Even for a supposedly easy cookie cutter setup like this one?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If you get 4 species in a 75G and start with 8 unsexed juveniles you might have to rehome 12 problem males. Or with the more peaceful species like labs and acei some of the extra males might well be fine in the tank.

Demasoni is the one that Ad Konings suggested a large number overstocked did better than the smaller numbers they used for other species. Because you want to end up with 12 you could acquire more problem males than a species where you are just want to end up with 5. It is an exception.

In a 75G ending up with 20 fish in a mixed species tank is about right.

Many different Members wrote various articles and prepared various cookie cutter tanks. The one listed worked well for one or more experienced Members. There are some I wouldn't do, but it gives newbies some ideas to start with.

You actually end up breaking even or making money. You buy the fish at $8 and sell them at $10 to the LFS when they are mature.


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## Idech (Nov 8, 2020)

Smeagol said:


> You have demasoni in the same tank with acei and yellow labs?


Yes, I do. Before I added them I did my research (even though everyone here said it wouldn't work, and maybe they're right and it won't work long term) and found people who had success with that mix. They are doing very well and not overly aggressive. I wasn't lucky and got 3 males and only 1 female as it wasn't possible to tell them apart. But there are so many places to hide now with the 75 gallons that males don't get on each other's nerves and the female is nowhere to be seen (and not behind the filter, she's just living her life in the rocks).

Like with any other fish, if it becomes a nightmare I will rehome them if need be. But so far they are a great addition to my tank. Fantastic fish.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> Agree on the hara, but when I had both hara and acei I found I was wanting more contrast. I would either bump up the counts or go with the barred Cynotilapia (like Cynotilapia zebroides Cobue) or go with rusties (Iodotropheus sprengerae).


I'm reconsidering this earlier suggestion of yours. But I'm a little bit confused.

(1) Are _Cynotilapia zebroides_ and _Cynotilapia afra_ the same thing? When I try to find more information about "zebroides," the search results keep showing me "afra." 
(2) All the different Cynotilapia zebroides listed in the profiles are essentially the same, right? They just have slightly different coloration?
(3) What m:f ratio for the zebroides?
(4) Are zebroides commonly available to buy or are they hard to find?

Sorry for all the questions. Thanks for your advice!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

1-afra is the old name and zebroides is the new name.
2-I would not say they are the same...some are more aggressive than others but none are as aggressive as auratus. Cobue is among the most peaceful and Jalo Reef is an example of a more assertive zebroides.
3-1m:4f works for all the Cynotilapia of which I am aware. Sometimes additional males are safe but may not color in a group. Note that females are drab.
4-I have not shopped in a LFS in years, they are always available online but maybe only a couple of species at any one time. I see 4 cynotilapia and 2 zebroides on one of the lists right now.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> 1-afra is the old name and zebroides is the new name.
> 2-I would not say they are the same...some are more aggressive than others but none are as aggressive as auratus. Cobue is among the most peaceful and Jalo Reef is an example of a more assertive zebroides.
> 3-1m:4f works for all the Cynotilapia of which I am aware. Sometimes additional males are safe but may not color in a group. Note that females are drab.
> 4-I have not shopped in a LFS in years, they are always available online but maybe only a couple of species at any one time. I see 4 cynotilapia and 2 zebroides on one of the lists right now.


So, in your opinion would zebroides be a better choice than maingano to be tank-mates with acei and yellow labs, considering that this is my first mbuna tank?

What are your thoughts on the all-male variety packs that some online vendors offer? Obviously they won't breed, but I'm not in any hurry for breeding.

Can you tell me in a DM which list has the 2 zebroides?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would choose the maingano for the color and in a 75G you should not have trouble with them as a beginner.

I don't think much of vendors that sell variety packs, let alone what you might get in one. Seems to me you would just get leftovers without regard to compatibility and reports from Members who have bought these supports the theory. Even starting with a perfect mix, all-male is a more challenging tank than mixed gender mbuna, and you would need at least one extra tank and plan on tinkering with the mix over a period of up to two years to get the max fish to color.

PM sent.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

Agreed. I wouldn't consider getting a variety pack, but I was curious what your thoughts were about them. I expect the males wouldn't color up nicely without any females around. Besides, I want to pick my own species. Thanks for all the tips!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Carefully select males from Lake Malawi (not so much Lake Victoria) will color in the presence of other males and without females. The competition between them keeps the color up. With a good stable mix having 80% of the males colorful would be a good result.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

I'm having a heck of a time making up my mind! Fortunately, I have time to think about it, because I haven't even filled my tank and started cycling yet. I want:

Acei (definitely)
Yellow labs (definitely)
Maingano _or _zebroides cobue _or _rusties (I can't decide!)

Is there any way I can do a combination of 4 of the above species in a 75g?

:fish:


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yes. 1m:4f of everything but the maingano. You will be over the 20 a little, but not excessive.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> Yes. 1m:4f of everything but the maingano. You will be over the 20 a little, but not excessive.


But you're talking about adult numbers, right? How many should I buy as juveniles?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

What many of us do is buy 2X the amount of females we want to end up with. So if you want 4 females, buy 8 unsexed juveniles.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> What many of us do is buy 2X the amount of females we want to end up with. So if you want 4 females, buy 8 unsexed juveniles.


So then, when I initially stock my tank, I'm going to have 38 fish total. That seems crazy to me. Is that really how things work in mbuna world?

1:4 acei... buy 8 unsexed juveniles
1:4 yellow labs... buy 8 unsexed juveniles
1:4 rusties... buy 8 unsexed juveniles
1:7 maingano... buy 14 unsexed juveniles


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You can do less. Some like to avoid having to buy more in a year to grow out additional females. Buying large numbers of fish saves on online shipping. But if you buy 5 of each now you can tinker with the male/female mix in a year as issues arise.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> You can do less. Some like to avoid having to buy more in a year to grow out additional females. Buying large numbers of fish saves on online shipping. But if you buy 5 of each now you can tinker with the male/female mix in a year as issues arise.


But during that first year, _before _I start "tinkering" with the m:f mix, isn't 38 fish too many? I know the juvies are small, but still.....


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I think you will be fine. But like I said, if you want to start with less and buy fish again later, you certainly can.

When I bought the msobo I ordered 8 they delivered 4 and I think I have 3m:1f. It has been a rocky ride, but damage has been minimal. I will be buying 8 again to try to get more females.

The labs mature at 1.5" so you may be tinkering with them sooner than the others.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> I think you will be fine. But like I said, if you want to start with less and buy fish again later, you certainly can.
> 
> When I bought the msobo I ordered 8 they delivered 4 and I think I have 3m:1f. It has been a rocky ride, but damage has been minimal. I will be buying 8 again to try to get more females.
> 
> The labs mature at 1.5" so you may be tinkering with them sooner than the others.


Why did they only deliver 4? If it was an error, they should've immediately shipped you 4 more, free of charge. If they only had 4 available, they should've cleared it with you before shipping them in the first place.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

They only had 4 and did not realize it when I placed the order. They did clear it with me. My point was just that it's not the end of the world if you don't get 4 females initially as long as you know what to look for and how to cope with problems as they arise. BUT I prefer to get more to start and remove as opposed to getting less to start and then having to grow out more down the road.


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