# Acei Fry/juvy deformities



## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

I've got a few groups of Acei fry and recently I noticed that a few have a different facial/head area. More of a blunt snout instead of the streamlined bullet look of a normal Acei. Has anyone else who has or had Acei ever noticed this on occasion? All of the colors are normal for the variant, so no crossbreeding evidence. I'm bummed because I didn't notice it initially and I grew them out. Is it normal to get a few oddballs every once in a while? If so, then they need to be culled correct? I even have a small group of Fuelleborni fry and 2 are obviously odd as well. But the others look perfectly normal. Opinions?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

There are two possibilities.

1. A genetic issue
2. There is a problem with the water.

Given you have two different species having this issue, I'd suggest that there is a problem with the water.


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## GotCichlids? (May 21, 2010)

+1 on the genetics sometimes when there is too much interbreeding this can cause abnormalities in fish and anything else! I have found that it is usually their heads or mouth area that is misshaped! What is wrong with your Fuelleborni fry? Can please post a pic of both of the fry in ?


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

I'm leaning toward genetics too only because I've had several batches of fry from other species like Afra and Rusties with no oddballs whatsoever. On the Acei, it's not alot of fish. Maybe a half dozen or so out of more than 65 fish from different broods. I pulled the suspect Fuelleborni and put them into a pouring container so I could get a better look at them. It became obvious to me why they were oddly shaped when I looked at them from above, bent spines. I saw a couple as soon as I stripped them, but apparently I missed getting them out of the group.

Fuelleborni. You can see the spine deformity now.








Acei. Not the best pic but you can compare the top left and bottom left fish to see the difference. The top looks like a normal Acei profile. The bottom is the odd looking one with the blunt/rounded snout area.


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## GotCichlids? (May 21, 2010)

Def differences good job on the pics the silhouette on the aceis def served the purpose. I have seen that "rounded" face on a lot of over inbreed broods if you know the parents that had these guys they are probably 3rd or 4th gen inbreed which will cause other problems with the fry that you can't see! As far as the Fuelleborni one of my fav species I have never seen the bent spine like that! Is it on more than one fry or is it only this one! If it is only one or two say out of 20 it might not be genetics but something that happened to them in the mothers mouth or when stripping them! At a young age their bones not fully developed are very sensitive and it could have been an injury that didn't correct its self! Again just my opinion and I have never seen it! Thanks for the pics! And what are you going to do with the Fuelleborni fry that aren't straight? If you need a good home I know some!


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## sus (Aug 29, 2009)

I had same problem with 2 acei fries, couln't return as I bought them from a local fish person and did notice their deformed face when they grew lil bigger  . 
However they behave normal and have no prob in eating... and hence still in my tank :fish: :fish: .


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## cjbtech (Dec 5, 2008)

I think abnormalities are part of the process. I had a wc group of Ctenochromis Horei that gave me a 2 headed fry that lived for over a month. very cool looking fry even though I did feel sorry for him/them.


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

Thanks for all the help. I wound up euthanizing the fuelleborni fry. They were half the size and growing into an odd shape. I'm considering the same for the Acei, a difficult decision for sure. But I can't get Konings statement out of my head that runts and deformed fish should not be kept to preserve the integrity of the species. I wish I had noticed these things sooner, but they move so darn fast, and it was much harder to tell when they were smaller. I'm raising the fry to sell, so it then also becomes an issue with tank space having to keep something that I can never sell. I know it sounds cruel, but what other options do I have?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would have done the same.


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

Thanks for the vote of confidence DJ  . I tried to make the process as humane as possible.


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## cjbtech (Dec 5, 2008)

DJRansome said:


> I would have done the same.


 Agreed. Keeping & breeding good examples is of the main concern, 2nd is getting a reputation of having quality fry,or having ****.


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

cjbtech said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> > I would have done the same.
> ...


Exactly!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would also try to ID the parents of the deformed fry and exclude them from my breeding group.


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## why_spyder (Mar 2, 2006)

How big were the clutches in comparison to the females that held them? Unless I missed it, I didn't see anyone suggest that the mouth of the female may have been overcrowded during development of the fry.

I've had instances of this in the past, the females basically tried to keep too many of the fry alive in her mouth and it made for too tight of quarters during the egg-to-fry development. The same females spawned again (and again) later on and didn't have the same issue (smaller clutches and/or bigger mouth from growth of mother).


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

Spyder, the 3 clutches that I had were all similar in size, about 21-23 each time. All of the females are about the same size, roughly 2-1/2 to 3". It doesn't seem excessive based on supposed brood sizes for the species, but I do remember their mouths were real big when brooding them.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Were they deformed from the time of stripping, or did these develop later on?


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

That's the problem, I'm not sure. I should have been more observant when they were smaller. But they move so quick that I never really noticed it until they hit about the 1" mark. I've since noticed a couple more from that first group. What would cause it to happen as they develop, after being spit?


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## bma57 (Sep 16, 2007)

Did yours look anything like this?








I had this guy, very similar to your description, a year or so ago.


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

bma, yes that's pretty much what the deformed one's looked like. A more rounded/blunt snout almost with an overbite.


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## bma57 (Sep 16, 2007)

DrgRcr said:


> bma, yes that's pretty much what the deformed one's looked like. A more rounded/blunt snout almost with an overbite.


Interesting. Must be a pretty common recessive gene that surfaces with inbreeding. I have one now that has a different slight deformity. From the side, his head looks normal, but straight on, his mouth is kind of off center. He eats fine, but has kind of an asymetrical mouth.


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

Yikes, something else to watch out for  ! Chances are, I'm not going to be raising too many more of the acei anyway, but if I do, I'll certainly pay close attention to them.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Like I've said before, I've seen these deformities from others, as a result of something in the water, or the quality of the water. If they aren't born like this, and you have more than one species with this happening, it is the water, not the genetics.


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## bma57 (Sep 16, 2007)

Fogelhund said:


> Like I've said before, I've seen these deformities from others, as a result of something in the water, or the quality of the water. If they aren't born like this, and you have more than one species with this happening, it is the water, not the genetics.


I guess It's kind of hard to say. Maybe I don't examine my fry closely enough when they're tiny, but I typically don't notice things like this until they grow out a little. By then It's hard to say whether its a birth defect or a water related deformation.

So what kind of water quality issue can lead to this?


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## BigJagLover (Oct 25, 2006)

I have the same issue with one of my yellow labs. Her broods have about 1/4 of the fry with smushed faces and the rest will be normal. My othe females all have perfect fry from the same male. In my case though i'm pretty sure it's inbreeding that's the issue though. The bad mother is from the same brood as the father and they were originally bought at petsmart. So i'm sure their great^3 grandparents are brother and sister and so on, right down to mine. I've just stopped keeping her fry all together. but it's a shame though because she has broods of 40+ most times and breeds regularly. Oh well.


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## poseidons minions (Dec 1, 2009)

my male acei mated with a female yellow lab the fry looks really cool


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