# Ochragenys



## pharrix (May 26, 2011)

I just purchased 3 of these fish, and wasn't sure what food to purchase ?

any help would be appreciated!


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## darkstar22 (Dec 13, 2010)

I feed mine sinking pellets, and once a week brine shrimp. 
My pellets are from Xtreme Aquatic Foods.


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## pharrix (May 26, 2011)

Thanks. I will get some tomorrow, hopefully petsmart has what I need.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Any good quality pellet will be fine for them.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

The Xenotilapia ochrogenys eat like pigs and is not picky as long as it fits in their mouth.

What location/variety do you have?

You will want to get more b/c they are like potato chips and they do best in a group.


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## pharrix (May 26, 2011)

Well they arrived yesterday and now I can not find them in the tank, I am wondering if I should start moving rocks or something?


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## pharrix (May 26, 2011)

well decided to go look for them.. they are all dead.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Oh no!  What happened?


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## pharrix (May 26, 2011)

apparently I had a dead spot in the tank, everything collected there.

I didn't realize my rock setup allowed that..

That is my only solution I can come up with. I'm now going to take time and redo my rocks and try cheaper fish, they were with shipping around 40 a piece.

I sucks those were cool fish.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't think that could be 100% of the reason.

How did you cycle the tank? What are your test results for pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?


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## illinois9er (Oct 20, 2004)

A "dead spot" in the tank didn't kill those fish. What are your water parameters?


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## pharrix (May 26, 2011)

Amm: 0 possibly .20

nitrates 20
nitrites 0

gh 120
kh 300
ph 9.1


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## pharrix (May 26, 2011)

tank has been running for over a year, 2 guppies and 2 plecos are currently in the tank

a 25% or 30% water change was done 2 days prior to getting the new fish.


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## darkstar22 (Dec 13, 2010)

do use rift lake salts, and Tanganyikan buffer? Surely it was not a dead spot
in filtration. Had to be something not right in the tank


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## pharrix (May 26, 2011)

nope no rife lake salts or buffer. My ph stays at 9.1 kh is way to high for it to fall.

should I be using that stuff?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

pharrix said:


> nope no rife lake salts or buffer. My ph stays at 9.1 kh is way to high for it to fall.
> 
> should I be using that stuff?


Not with values like that, you don't need it. I'd agree that a dead spot didn't kill your fish unless it indicates inadequate filtration. That possible slight ammonia reading is a concern. What type of filtration are you using?

How did they seem when you first got them?

Did you get them locally or online?

What kind of plecos and what size?

What size tank?


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

pharrix said:


> nope no rife lake salts or buffer. My ph stays at 9.1 kh is way to high for it to fall.
> 
> should I be using that stuff?


No need to use anything by the looks of it.
How big were the xenos? is there a lot of water flow in the tank? 
I have had in the past, the odd smaller melanogenys get blown into a gap in the rocks and die.
It sounds like they died and just ended up where all the waste gathers. Something to do with the Acclimation perhaps?


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## pharrix (May 26, 2011)

What type of filtration are you using? xp 3 and a hob 400

How did they seem when you first got them? hard to say, they had alot of **** in the water, weren't moving around very much. When I added them they were just moving with the current not really swimming a whole lot.

Did you get them locally or online? online

What kind of plecos and what size? common ( guessing ) 8" abouts and probably 4"

What size tank? 65gal , 3ft long.

The fish were alittle over an inch.


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## pharrix (May 26, 2011)

Something to do with the Acclimation perhaps?

I did it as they suggested. The only step that I missed was turning out the lights, could have over stressed the fish but unsure.

I let them float for 10 minutes, cut the bag, pour the water into a bucket while the fish went into the net, then put the fish in the tank.


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## pharrix (May 26, 2011)

water flow ...

I have a circulation powerhead in the water ( I don't remember the name ) , and had 2 air stones in it at the time. I since then have turned off the stones. Airstones are 2" in dia.

The xp3 puts out a nice stream of water for good circulation and I have the powerhead about middle of the tank.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

pharrix said:


> What type of filtration are you using? xp 3 and a hob 400
> 
> How did they seem when you first got them? hard to say, they had alot of #%$& in the water, weren't moving around very much. When I added them they were just moving with the current not really swimming a whole lot.
> 
> The fish were alittle over an inch.


My guess is ammonia poisoning from not being fasted properly prior to shipping. There should be no waste in the bag water when they arrive. You probably had no chance to save them. But, we're on a slippery slope here because we can't get into discussing specific online retailers in the open forum. I know from experience some will stand behind their fish even beyond 'live when received'.

Just to add, next time call if you see this and if they don't respond well to this, then walk away and take your business elsewhere.


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## pharrix (May 26, 2011)

*prov356* thanks.


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## illinois9er (Oct 20, 2004)

I agree with the ammonia poisoning. There shouldn't be an excessive amount of waste in the fish bags if they are fasted properly prior to shipping.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

I have also read on more than one occasion that the the toughest part about growing out Xenos is getting them to two inches. I personally would not be buying 1" Ochrogenys. Were you planning on putting them in a bigger tank as they grew?


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## pharrix (May 26, 2011)

I have plans to get a larger tank, so eventually they would have went into a larger tank.

I would hate to see the price of larger ones.. 1" were expensive.


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## Norm66 (Mar 3, 2005)

I just bought 8 of these at the convention. They're all about 1". I hope mine do ok.


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## Mr Mbuna (Nov 16, 2007)

noddy said:


> I have also read on more than one occasion that the the toughest part about growing out Xenos is getting them to two inches. I personally would not be buying 1" Ochrogenys.


Have to agree with this. I wouldn't be looking to sell them until at least 2" or thereabouts.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

pharrix said:
 

> I have plans to get a larger tank, so eventually they would have went into a larger tank.
> 
> I would hate to see the price of larger ones.. 1" were expensive.


Well I reccently bought 3 - 3 1/2" Kilesa (which I believe are generally a more expensive fish) for $32.00 ea. I would think for $40.00 you could get adult Ochrogenys. It's hard to have fish shipped in if you are only buying a couple.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

Pharrix wrote


> I let them float for 10 minutes, cut the bag, pour the water into a bucket while the fish went into the net, then put the fish in the tank.


That is not the proper way to acclimate Xenotilapia or any sensitive species.

Floating the fish bag is not good at all but I do not blame you b/c it is a bad practice that has been around for years that was suggested to you.

Most people on average have there tanks pH around 8.2 and the pH drops during shipping,so the pH in the bags could of been as low as 7.5 which is a huge difference to 9.1 of your tank.

What do mean by **** in the bags,do you mean poo,blue water or cloudy with a bad smell?

Also what shipping service was used and what temp was the water in the bag?

and temp of your tank too

I know that shipping these fish at 1.25 inches are no problem at all.They are one of the toughest Xenos in my experience with them.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> That is not the proper way to acclimate Xenotilapia or any sensitive species.
> 
> Floating the fish bag is not good at all but I do not blame you b/c it is a bad practice that has been around for years that was suggested to you.
> 
> Most people on average have there tanks pH around 8.2 and the pH drops during shipping,so the pH in the bags could of been as low as 7.5 which is a huge difference to 9.1 of your tank.


I've netted and dumped hundreds of so-called sensitive tanganyikans without a problem. pH shock is a myth. Raising the pH by drip acclimating also raises the toxicity of the ammonia in the bag water. I float the bags when I take them out of the boxes if I just need to put them somewhere while dealing with others. Not sure what difference in the world that would make at all, or why it's a bad practice. Just keep the aquarium lights off.

It'd be helpful if you're going to tell someone they've done something wrong to explain your reasons why and also what you feel is a better way and why.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

The way I acclimate is taken from Stephan at swisstropicals.com on his acclimation page.The only thing I do different is that I add some ammonia remover such as Prime to the pale that the shipping water is in before dripping or using the cup method.Also I quickly acclimate around 30 minutes tops.I have great success using this method and also the people that have received fish from me using it.

Sure many people have no trouble just netting the fish and placing them in the tank but that all depends on the health and hardiness of the fish and the difference in hardness/pH not to off from what they are used to.

If pH/hardness shock is a myth, what causes calvus fry to die suddenly when moved to another tank in the same fish room but do completely fine when you transfer their water to another tank with them?

Everyone wants to blame the shipper without checking out all of the details.

No one is questioning a .25ppm ammonia at 9.1 pH in the tank as an issue


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

This taken from Stephan's website

Fish acclimatization or how not to kill your fish on the first day!

Common Ã¢â‚¬Å"wisdomÃ¢â‚¬Â


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Based on advice I received here I float and net as well. Even delicate fish like calvus and cyps...no problem at all.

I did see a fish unhappy about pH once...no deaths but they were definitely freaked out for a couple hours (still on the bottom and got their night-time stripes). What I do instead now is match the quarantine tank to the pH the fish are coming from and then over the 3 weeks of quarantine the water changes equalize things.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

We assume it's pH that they're not happy about, but we don't really know that. There's a lot going on in water. And there can be many issues with water besides pH. pH just gets blamed because we know that and can measure that. Fish stress out in new environments, some more than others. May have absolutely nothing to do with water chemistry, but more about fear/panic over being in that new environment. I'd be happy to review links to studies that show why pH changes kill fish, if anyone has any to offer. And I'm not asking for aquarium web sites that simply state that pH shock kills fish. Those are a dime a dozen.


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## pharrix (May 26, 2011)

The ph the fish were kept in were 7.8. Seller informed me of this when they shipped the fish.

This is what irritates me the most about keeping any fish. Recommended PH levels, but basically you can keep the fish at whatever ph your water is. I have 2 guppies at 9.1 and they are doing fine. Suggested ph for their environment is neutral.

Anyway I'm off my tangent.

So if the ph drops during shipment, the ph could be as low as 7 or even lower. So I have no idea why these fish died.

I haven't purchased anymore fish due to the fact that this happened. I've been thinking of possibly shell dwellers, but I won't be revisiting xenos anytime soon. this has also scared me away from ordering fish online, I know this is how other places get fish so you can buy them and I've seen a business place the fish ( already bagged ) in the water and then just dump everything water and fish into their tank.

The way I acclimated my fish was suggested by the seller. 
Here is a copy of the email I received when they were shipped. ( seller's name has been removed )

1. Turn off your tank light 
2. Float bags for 10-15 minutes so the temperature can stabilize. (If bag is completely deflated for any reason then the fish need air so skip this step
3. Get out a bucket and your net. Set your net on the bucket so you can dump the water in the bag through the net and into the bucket. 
4. After 10 minutes or so of floating individually take the bags out of the tank and cut the top off the bag then dump the fish into the net leaving the water in the bucket.
5. Quickly lift the net up and dump the fish into the tank.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

Acclimation aside, what shipping service was used,how much water was in the bag for the 3 fish,and was the water cloudy with a bad smell?

Also what temp did they come in at and what temp is your tank?

I am trying to help you find out the reason the xenos died.

We should not blame the seller without details


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## pharrix (May 26, 2011)

I haven't blamed them, and will not cause it could be anything.

the water was blue, possibly half full of water, maybe not quite half.

It did have debris floating around in the bag, was similar to waste.

Unknown of temp in bag, my tank is at 78. It was a hot day, but the bags did get foggy after a few minutes of floating.

I have read that fish adjust to an rise in temp better than they do when one is dropping.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

It sounds like they were shipped in pretty well.

Your tank water has very high kH probably from calcium which is fine,but your gH or carbonate hardness is actually on the low side which can cause swings in pH.It sound like you are aerating the **** out that tank,maybe too much by driving too much CO2 out and sending the pH on the high side.I would use some baking soda say 1 teaspoon for every 10 gallons till the gH raises to 200 or so.This will not cause the pH to climb but to stabilize and cut back on the aeration.

A Rena Xp3 has a flow of 350 gal/hr which is more than enough for your tank,but it doesn't hurt to have a lower flow sponge filter too as a safety net.

How much flow does your power head put out b/c small xenos like current but not too much.
There is going to be dead spots in all cichlid tanks which is normal.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

Also the problem is not really pH shock but total dissolved solids/hardness osmotic shock that causes problems with fish acclimating.Your hardness or kH could be much higher than the seller of the xenos.Many test kits stop at 300 and it could be way more.


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## pharrix (May 26, 2011)

Well long story on the gh, but I'll keep it short.

I have 1 more water change to do and my gh should be alot higher than what it is currently. I'm transitioning my tank from soft water to hard water so I could have cichlids.

GH going to cause fish to die in a matter of hours?

I have shut my air off on the tank, and my ph is still the same. I have went though PH **** and back trying to figure out ph. Even with soft water of gh 0 my ph is still 9.1. Long story..

The powerhead maybe 200 gph, its a small one for circulation, is not hooked to an air line or anything.

All of the waste/ food etc.. goes to the back left corner in the tank, it happens to the be the same place where I found the fish.


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## pharrix (May 26, 2011)

dmiller328 said:


> Also the problem is not really pH shock but total dissolved solids/hardness osmotic shock that causes problems with fish acclimating.Your hardness or kH could be much higher than the seller of the xenos.Many test kits stop at 300 and it could be way more.


I don't have the experience to comment. I'm at a loss. It would take a considerable amount of time to match your tank water even if you did a holding tank.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

pharrix, you won't know now what killed your fish, but what you do know is there should NOT be lots of poop in the bag when you get them. I've been buying lots of fish online for some time now and what I can tell you from my experience is that these fish probably died from shipping stress. Do I know for sure, no. But, I've seen this. Saw it recently. Lots of waste in the bag and dead and swooning fish that died later. The breeder acknowledged that they may have accidentally fed them. They were replaced. This is the type of breeder you want to deal with. Another possiblity is that the box could have over heated in shipment driving down oxygen levels. Or, a combination of both heat and excess waste in the bag. Not a good combo. Stress kills newly arrived fish in the manner that yours died. Changes in pH and temperature, no. Just deal with a reputatble dealer and you'll probably have a better experience next time. Also find one with better prices, $40 is way too much for those fish.



> Also the problem is not really pH shock but total dissolved solids/hardness osmotic shock that causes problems with fish acclimating.


I've read that lots of times. Nothing out there to support it. Osmotic shock is a companion myth to pH shock. They're often mentioned together.



> I have shut my air off on the tank, and my ph is still the same. I have went though PH #%$& and back trying to figure out ph. Even with soft water of gh 0 my ph is still 9.1. Long story..


GH has nothing to do with pH. It doesn't affect it at all.

I wouldn't turn off the air. Trying to increase CO2 levels to drop pH is a bad plan. Not that you could do it anyway. Any tank with good circulation will not have above normal levels of CO2. The air bubbles don't do anything special to drive off CO2 that a good circulation pump and some surface ripple won't do. It's the same thing that ensures adequate oxygen levels.

Rift lake cichlids should love your pH. Why drop it?



> GH going to cause fish to die in a matter of hours?


No, and neither is KH or pH.



> All of the waste/ food etc.. goes to the back left corner in the tank, it happens to the be the same place where I found the fish.


Because of the circulation. This doesn't have anything to do with the fish deaths, finding them in that spot with the waste.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

There is nothing wrong with a pH of 9.1 as long as it stays somewhat stable for cichlids.

A powerhead with 200g/hr is not much at,I was thinking over 1000gal/hr by the way you were talking about a dead spot :lol:

Hard to say what was the major factor for them dying.Could of been shipped in a tad too small and too much of a change in hardness.

I wouldn't give up on having Xenos b/c they are great fish


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## pharrix (May 26, 2011)

prov356 said:


> I wouldn't turn off the air. Trying to increase CO2 levels to drop pH is a bad plan. Not that you could do it anyway. Any tank with good circulation will not have above normal levels of CO2. The air bubbles don't do anything special to drive off CO2 that a good circulation pump and some surface ripple won't do. It's the same thing that ensures adequate oxygen levels.


I have zero reason to drop my ph, and increasing co2 by turning off the air is not feasible in my situation. I turned it off... not sure why now.. My ph is 9.1 when mixed with air.. Prov356 and I have already had this discussion about PH.

Then finding out that the seller had these fish in 7.8 ph water. I am realizing that ph does not matter.

I know my gh has nothing to do with my ph, kh helps stablize the ph instead of having it lower with time.

I'm not concerned with what killed these fish, it was a lesson learned. I am concerned with it happening again.

Everything I have done to this tank has turned out wrong, trial by error. So far I have spent alot of $$$$ first trying to get PH up or down.. yea waste of $. Then to get harder water than soften water was just as stressful.

My ph is stable at 9.1 if not 9.2.

Any suggestions on fish for 65gal tank, yes its 3ft long, not the 4ft recommended length. maybe should start a new thread.

This isn't something that I have started working on last month or even the month before, this has been going on for quite sometime. I finally got the humph to purchase fish and bamm.. so you can see my hesitation for buying anymore fish.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

dmiller328 said:


> Your tank water has very high kH probably from calcium which is fine,but your gH or carbonate hardness is actually on the low side which can cause swings in pH.I would use some baking soda say 1 teaspoon for every 10 gallons till the gH raises to 200 or so.This will not cause the pH to climb but to stabilize and cut back on the aeration.


Not sure if I am missunderstanding this but, to the best of my knowledge, baking soda will not raise G.H, it will raise K.H. Raising the G.H is done with epsum salts (not that I would bother).


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Not sure if I am missunderstanding this but, to the best of my knowledge, baking soda will not raise G.H, it will raise K.H. Raising the G.H is done with epsum salts (not that I would bother).


You're correct. GH has nothing to do with pH and using baking soda won't affect GH. He's confusing KH and GH. KH stabilizes pH. Baking soda raises KH, Espom salts raise GH. And both values are more than high enough. I wouldn't bother to adjust them either.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

Sorry for the brain malfunctoin on the kh and gh cross.

Too much heat and not enough cold beer.

For a 3 foot show tank I would suggest a group of Paracyprichromis,pair of Julidochromis dickfeldi or transcriptus,and shell dwellers like multies or similis.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

We concure that pH is not the issue but a gH of 120 for hardness is on the low side and the fish even though came from 7.8 pH water could of been in hardness well past 300.Also there is salt that is not measured accurately by gH but is in the Total dissolved solids that could of been in the shipping water.

There has been much research in aquaculture on Osmotic shock to salmon going from fresh to saltwater that causes complete fish kills.It is exteme but it well within there natural range but they still died from a drastic change.

A stressed out fish not coming in top condition can easily succumb to osmotic shock.

There is also a reason that most Tanganyika keepers on change around 40% at most of the water during a water change on sensitive species such as Cyprichromis,calvus,and featherfins.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> There has been much research in aquaculture on Osmotic shock to salmon going from fresh to saltwater that causes complete fish kills


I would agree that if you get a shipment of freshwater fish and put them in a saltwater tank, you'll get a complete kill, no doubt.



> A stressed out fish not coming in top condition can easily succumb to osmotic shock.


Here's a study. Short Take: Stress In Fish, Part II: Why You Should Care About Stress In Fish Osmotic shock can happen, but not because of water parameter differences like a change in pH. It's more complicated. Fish release adrenaline, etc. designed to help it short term, but can do long term damage. It's a bit technical, but worth reading, I think.



> There is also a reason that most Tanganyika keepers on change around 40% at most of the water during a water change on sensitive species such as Cyprichromis,calvus,and featherfins.


'Most' tanganyikan keepers do this? Not sure how you'd know that.  I haven't found any of those groups to be sensitive to water changes. Some keepres have, I know, particularly with calvus, but not necessarily because of pH, KH, etc. The reason is not known. There's more in the water than what we can measure with hobbyist kits.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

That was a good read including this line taken out of it



> Thus, acute stress limits the fish's capacity to osmoregulate, and prolonged periods of extreme stress may result in osmotic shock and death.


I brought up Salmon b/c they are known to be able to handle fresh or saltwater but can not handle the change quickly.There are a few Central American cichlids that can venture into saltwater.

Where is the scientific research that proves that osmotic shock from difference in hardness or TDS Does Not exist?

Your water out of the tap may be near the same hardness as you tank water and you can do much greater water changes but in mine and many others that is not the case.If we done a poll I am almost positive that the outcome would be less than 40% water changes done at a time.


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## shon982 (Jun 18, 2010)

Sometimes fish just die... can't do much about it and yes sometimes it remains unexplained
me and my friends have gotten imported fish before, go into the exact same system but one colony might die and another doesn't 
it just happens without explanation or cause 
could be water, could be what they were fed, could be stress from travelling, could be bacteria/parasites, it could be anything!


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## Cooder (Jul 19, 2011)

i reckon youve made it all too complicated guys...

fish get shocked because of the DIFFERENCE IN WATER. temp, ph, gh whatever it is the difference is what shocks them, and the bigger the difference the more likely it is that your fish are going to die. 
The float and net method obviously works becuase its been used for generations, the drip/cup method is better, so should be used for the more delicate species, like the ones you bought.

So *** laid out what i can see, are the reasons for your fish dieing:

1: Shipper not fasting properly, leading to **** in the water, leading to ammonia, which would be different to your tank.

2: Your ph is 9.1 and the bags ph was roughly 7 or so, plus the differences in KH, GH and temp, its a fairly different from your tank.

3: For those circumstances, the drip/cup method is probably the best idea, but the other method was used because of misinformation, leading to differeces in water...

and dont be afraid to try again, ya just have to learn from your mistakes. you miss out on alot of awesome species if your afraid to ship them.

Hope this helps in the future


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> That was a good read including this line taken out of it
> 
> Quote:
> Thus, acute stress limits the fish's capacity to osmoregulate, and prolonged periods of extreme stress may result in osmotic shock and death.


Yes, but not from pH. You're missing the point. Most often osmoregulation problems are attributed to differences in pH, just as you've said in previous posts. That's the myth. Not osmoregulation, but that it's tied to pH differences.



> i reckon youve made it all too complicated guys...
> 
> fish get shocked because of the DIFFERENCE IN WATER. temp, ph, gh whatever it is the difference is what shocks them, and the bigger the difference the more likely it is that your fish are going to die.
> The float and net method obviously works becuase its been used for generations, the drip/cup method is better, so should be used for the more delicate species, like the ones you bought.


The myths are never going away. I need to accept that and give up, don't I?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

No keep trying, you are wearing me down little by little. I need a handy osmoregulation test in my API master test kit to replace the pH one though. :lol:


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Thanks for the encouragement. I just try to ask "is that really true" even though it's been done for decades. I try to base what I do on fact, not "it's always been done that way". That's how you move ahead and learn new methods and ways. I learned that drip acclimating wasn't needed because I abandoned the practice. And that was based on someone else's experience being relayed here. Now my experience agrees. As importantly, I can find nothing to support the old ways as being necessary. In fact, not recognizing that raising pH raises ammonia toxicity makes drip acclimating risky.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

Here is rest of the paragraph from the study



> One of the most characteristic aspects of stress in fish is osmoregulatory disturbance, which is related to the effects of both catecholamine and cortisol hormones. The extent of the disturbance following stress depends upon the ionic and osmotic gradients (difference) between the internal fluids of the fish and its surrounding environment (water). If the stress is persistent and of sufficient intensity, changes in the cellular structure of the gills may occur under the influence of cortisol. In this situation, increased death and turnover rates of branchial epithelial cells leads to accelerated aging of the gills. These degenerating and newly-formed gill cells do not function normally, which further limits the fish's ability to maintain water and ion homeostasis under stressful conditions. Thus, acute stress limits the fish's capacity to osmoregulate, and prolonged periods of extreme stress may result in osmotic shock and death.


How did I take it wrong.It clearly states that a stressed fish has a reduced ability to the osmoregulate to differences of the water and fluids inside.A shipped fish is a stressed one and to different degrees depending on the fish and how it was shipped.

pH shock is just a term for osmotic shock but does not mean it was caused by pH

Why should I change the way I acclimate my fish that has worked best for me and the ones I send fish to with no scientific study saying it is not needed to avoid shock?It is not a myth to many others and I.I only dump fish in if they are a hardy species and the temp is very similar.

Many ways of doing things in this hobby is not black and white with many grey areas and acclimation is certainly one of them


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Hmmm, I always thought pH shock and osmotic shock meant two different things. And it seems pH shock may be a myth.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

DJRansome said:


> Hmmm, I always thought pH shock and osmotic shock meant two different things. And it seems pH shock may be a myth.


They do, but can be somewhat related, at least in the way it's been presented in the past. The idea was that if the pH varied enough the fish would have trouble with osmoregulation. One led to the other, or at least that was the idea.

I got my first batch of tanganyikans a little over 4 years ago. I drip acclimated per the breeders instructions. They included so-called sensitive species like calvus. All fish survived, l went on, all was well. It was a couple of years later before I finished out my fish room and started ordering a lot more fish. In those two years I had seen posts from experienced keepers of tangs that I had a lot of respect for who just netted and dumped. It made me question. I had also come across a site called 'The skeptical aquarist'. He does a great job of calling into question some long held beliefs about keeping fish including pH shock. I gradually became a skeptic myself when it came to what I saw posted in forums and on various web sites. I've since brought in a couple of dozen more tanganyikans, about a dozen west africans, and most recently several species of mbuna. Literally hundreds of fish. Netted and dumped all with no losses. Some of them are on the 'sensitive' species list. I made things easier on myself by questioning. When you're new at keeping fish, the best thing is probably to take advice from an experienced person and go with it. But, I just feel that if you want to grow, it's good to question. How else will you ever find a better way? All are free of course to stick with what works for them, that's their right. But, I found an easier way by being open to the idea that there may be a better way.

Regarding the article. You have to read it and take it as a whole, not remove bits and bytes out of context. Stress causes physiological changes that are detrimental to the fish. The damage it does to the fish may inhibit it's ability to osmoregulate, among other things. pH or other water chemistry changes are never suggested to be the source of a fish's ability to osmoregulate. The article doesn't say that. If a fish arrives to us and is unable to osmoregulate, then it's most likely been stressed previously to the point of triggering these chemical processes that have damaged the fish. Interesting in that the article points out that the fish may not die immediately. How many times have people received fish ok, but then they die of mysteriously one by one over the next days and weeks?

Anyway, each can do as they wish regarding acclimation or any other aspect of fish keeping. But, I'm just suggesting that you keep an open mind and question, even if to yourself, if you want to possibly find a way to do something easier, better, faster, etc. I don't always like to get involved in these kinds of discussions because some get defensive and even angry when you question what they've been doing for years. I've seen it here over and over. Take the 'eggcrate' argument, for example. But, I have a hard time sitting by and not sharing my experience when others stress the importance of something that I've found to be not necessary. Let the reader decide whatever. Just always question. It's ok and a good thing even if not always a popular thing.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I have not acclimated hundreds of fish, but since I change my mind like the wind I do go through my fair share. After listening to Prov356 and a few others I also skip the dripping process. 9 times out of 10, I won't even use a net. I just scoop the fish out of the bag and plop them in the tank. I have done this with all my fish, even my apistogrammas.

As a side note. I have 35 black skirt tetra's that I use for dithers. I always find new fish eat sooner when they see the tetras swarm food. So these 35 tetras get moved from tank to tank at my whim. A year later and I still have 35.

I brought in 90 fish three weeks ago (40 were rasboras lol) and it sure beats plopping them all in versus doing the drip :lol:

Just my experience,
Aaron


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

I certainly would do something easier if it was proved scientifically that it was a better way.I don't take it personally when someone has their view as the best way.I have been in this hobby now for almost 20 years and I have yet to stop learning but I am too a Skeptical aquarist when it comes to beliefs without research.

I think the main reason that many people recommend just float/dump method is that they are afraid of free ammonia burning the fish but if ammonia remover is used that is not an issue.There is also a store in CA that has done research on using a double acclimation method of first using lower pH water to flush the ammonia out of the water and they are having much less deaths than without no acclimation.They are doing research on the change of Total Dissolved Solids being an issue.I too worked at a LFS for 4 years receiving freshwater and saltwater fish and inverts and I can tell you that there was much less % deaths when we did acclimate.I have also heard countless times of people letting their water changes go for a long time and just topping off with tap water and then do a 50% water change which killed many of their fish which leads me to believe a extreme change of TDS was the issue when the fish was stressed from high nitrates.

Many of the cichlids I receive now are wild caught and they have been through much stress and that is why I find acclimation needed v/s someone receiving tank raised at 100% health.

A completely healthy fish shipped well can handle the change as they can osmoregulate.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I have also heard countless times of people letting their water changes go for a long time and just topping off with tap water and then do a 50% water change which killed many of their fish which leads me to believe a extreme change of TDS was the issue when the fish was stressed from high nitrates.


That has a name, Old Tank Syndrom. You can find more info on it here.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

A person with "old tank syndrome" who wanted to add fish would be better off doing a series of small water changes to the main tank, don't you agree?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

You'd almost have to treat it like a new tank that was going to go through a cycle. Rehome fish, if you can. But, if not, then yes, small changes would be best while closely monitoring. Sometimes there's also a mountain of muck in the substrate and dirty filters. You can have multiple issues to deal with if not just the water changes were neglected. If fish die, it'd be more thn likely from toxins like ammonia and nitrite rather than changes in water chemistry that they can't adapt to.

But, understandable that someone would tend to want to rush in and do a major cleaning. It'd be an honest mistake.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

But what causes the fish to sudden die when there is just high nitrates with 0 ammonia and ammonia/chlorine remover is used during a water change?

I believe the TDS increased very slowly and the fish adapted to it but could not handle a sudden change of lower TDS or hardness.They were also weakened by the stress caused by nitrates.

I don't order from someone anymore if I test the shipping water and it is high in nitrate.I can assume that the TDS is probably high as well too.Nitrates don't jump up in shipped water b/c there is no nitrogen cycle.

I also used to use "myth"ylene blue in the shipping water to help protect against nitrite poisoning but I find it not needed.There is 0 nitrite in the water anyways and nitrite has less affect in higher pH water.

Just to say fish die for no reason is just too simple to me and we do not learn from it.

I believe there is always a reason or a combination of issues that cause a fish to die.


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