# Red Zebra digging - male or female?



## cichfeeble (Jan 12, 2010)

Sorry if this is a silly question 

Last week I posted some photos of a few Zebras that I've got in my 55g. I'd originally thought I had 1 male and 2 females (LFS said they were). But we had doubts about one of the females, and after posting a photo, people on here seemed to think my suspect was actually a 2nd male.

This fish has been spending a lot of time creating a cave/nest at the side of the tank behind a rock. He (She/It) has been sucking up gravel into its mouth and then spitting it out a short distance away, such that now there's a nice little burrow under the rock, right up against the side of the tank.

For reference, here's the picture again, of the fish that's digging (with the "known" male behind): http://www.flickr.com/photos/mickfeeble ... otostream/

So my question is this: Is that behavior typical of males? Females? Both?

To add a little more info... the male Zebra (that we *know* is male for sure, background in above photo) has been doing lots of the tail shake in front of the known female Zebra. He keeps following her around, then getting in front of her and doing the shake. But this intermediate sized gender-questionable Zebra never does the shake. Just keeps working at the nest/cave. The other two Zebras (the known male and known female) have never been observed doing any digging.

Thanks for any insights you can provide!


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## bmweiler09 (Nov 17, 2009)

The cave digging definitely sounds like a male habit but I'm not for sure. I think the best way to tell is by behavior. if the "known" male is courting(shaking, flashing colors) it is probably a female. If they are both males they will chase eachother and face off a lot until one becomes dominant


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## cichfeeble (Jan 12, 2010)

The known male only does the shake in front of the known female (who is smaller and orange). The known male does not behave aggressively toward this other Zebra though. Very occasionally he gives a casual chase, but never attempting to actually make physical contact.

The questionable one, who is digging, never displays, but often swims side-by-side with the known female. That's why I'm confused. If this were another male, I would have thought that the dominant male would be aggressive towards it. And that's not the case. Oddly, the known male (who is the largest fish in the tank) is quite docile toward everyone.

I have this funny image in my head that the known male is like the big "tough guy", revving his motorcycle and showing off for the female, while the other male is like a nerdy "provider" who is quietly and meekly building a nest to woo the female. But I recognize that this anthropomorphizing is probably grounds for my institutionalization.


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## bmweiler09 (Nov 17, 2009)

LOL. That could be the case, buttt I'm thinking not. Just keep observing them and it will start to become more obvious. If you just got them they are probably too distracted by their new surroundings to behave naturally.


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

The following opinions are based on experience with other mbuna, not M. estherae. But most of it should hold true:



rsilverst said:


> The known male only does the shake in front of the known female (who is smaller and orange). The known male does not behave aggressively toward this other Zebra though. Very occasionally he gives a casual chase, but never attempting to actually make physical contact.


I have 3 male and 8 female saulosi. There is a definite dominant and sub dominant male, but while those two have distinct territories from which they chase the other emphatically, neither is overly concerned with the third male. He's barely coloured up.



rsilverst said:


> The questionable one, who is digging, never displays, but often swims side-by-side with the known female. That's why I'm confused. If this were another male, I would have thought that the dominant male would be aggressive towards it. And that's not the case. Oddly, the known male (who is the largest fish in the tank) is quite docile toward everyone.


Again, same here. My 'third' male interacts with the females without reproach. But he seldom displays for the females. I think if he did he'd hear about it from the other two.



rsilverst said:


> I have this funny image in my head that the known male is like the big "tough guy", revving his motorcycle and showing off for the female, while the other male is like a nerdy "provider" who is quietly and meekly building a nest to woo the female. But I recognize that this anthropomorphizing is probably grounds for my institutionalization.


Possible, but not likely!

None of this proves that your question fish is in fact a male. Any of the behaviours you've mentioned can and will be seen in females. Although they're certainly more common in males.

Either way, you may want to address the possibility with more females. 1m/2f is a demanding ratio for M. estherae - 2m/1f is going to be a long term problem for the health and safety of your female.

kevin


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

All my zebras dig. The male does his shimmy thing but the females will fight all out to protect their "side" of the tank. My girls are orange and the tuff guy is blue. They have spawned in the past with one of the girls getting beat up pretty bad, I need to add another, but the venustus and fossies keep the fry under control. I have some male callainos in there and they just stay away from the squabbles.


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## cichfeeble (Jan 12, 2010)

Based on recommendations online, and at my LFS, I did opt for an "overstocking" approach from the start here. Right now, I have 18 cichlids (plus a cat and a pleco). Most of these are small, 2.5" or smaller, except the 3 Zebras.

I am apprehensive about adding any more fish right now, because I don't want to get out of control with things. I know that over time, as the fish get larger (especially some of them, like the Red Empress or Electric Blue), I may need to bring some of them back to the LFS, as they could be too large for my tank.

But w.r.t. changing the gender ratio, would it be better to get more females *now*? Or to wait for the Zebras I already have to breed and increase the population via their fry (or at least a subset of the fry)?


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

I have found that zebras do not like newcomers and establashing a pecking order is pretty nasty. I have had to take new fish out in the past.

What has worked for me is to introduce them into a new surrounding, a new tank or rescaped tank, when adding newcomers. Do not believe what you hear, these fish are pretty smart and unless they are all from the same tank from a young age know when another is added quickly ,so it is a good practice to confuse them when you do.


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

rsilverst said:


> Based on recommendations online, and at my LFS, I did opt for an "overstocking" approach from the start here. Right now, I have 18 cichlids (plus a cat and a pleco). Most of these are small, 2.5" or smaller, except the 3 Zebras.


I overstepped a bit suggesting you fix your ratios not knowing what your other stock was. It's important to have the right ratios but not necessarily at the expense of your other fish.



rsilverst said:


> I am apprehensive about adding any more fish right now, because I don't want to get out of control with things. I know that over time, as the fish get larger (especially some of them, like the Red Empress or Electric Blue), I may need to bring some of them back to the LFS, as they could be too large for my tank.


Correct my assumption that your 55 is 48x13" if I'm wrong, but could you list your other fish with m/f ratios if known?

I and others can make some educated guesses on which fish may or may not work out long term.

Unfortunately, 'overstocking' is often interpreted as 'a lot of different species' when in fact it means 'a lot of a few species in the right ratios.' The former rarely works while the latter usually does.



rsilverst said:


> But w.r.t. changing the gender ratio, would it be better to get more females *now*? Or to wait for the Zebras I already have to breed and increase the population via their fry (or at least a subset of the fry)?


We can answer the first part of this question based on the other stock in your tank.

There are two answers to the second part. If your female starts holding and you have her spit (or strip her) in a fry tank, you will have fry that can be introduced into the main tank about 6 months later.
If you let her spit in the tank, don't count on many (or any) of the fry making it to adulthood.

kevin


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## wheatbackdigger (May 11, 2008)

To answer the OP's original question...Female Red Zebras will dig and there is no way to sex them by this behavior


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## justinf67 (Jul 19, 2009)

true, behavior isnt an indicator...but like i said in your other thread, the ob and the one pictured ARE males. Its not even close to not conclusive...The best way to tell with red zebra is to look at their fins. the males will have a blue shine, while the female will be orange. some males its not as noticeable till they are older, but your pic is classic male. Like ridley said, please post the full stock list


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

I found your stock on another thread:
3 Electric Blue (Sciaenochromis fryeri) pushing the size and aggression limits of a 55
3 Red Zebra (one is a hybrid) these will be fine in the right ratios (1m/4f)
3 Pse. Saulosi - these will be fine in the right ratios (1m/4f)
3 Red Empress (Protomelas taeniolatus) far too big for a 55
3 Yellow Lab - add two. But be aware that they will likely cross with the zebras
3 Ornate Julie (Julidochromis ornatus) this is a Tanganyikan cichlid. Your other cichlids are all from Lake Malawi - since a 55 should really only have three species, I would move these out too
1 Syn. eupterus - this fish is fine
1 Marble Horn Pleco - don't know this one. Is there a scientific name of L number?

Overall this isn't a great mix. Labs and zebras cross easily, and even with the right numbers, your labs and saulosi will give you yellow overkill - not to mention that your zebras are halfway to yellow as well.

Have you seen these?

























kevin


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Agree that digging and shimmying is not exclusive to males, and that 1:3 ratio with 6 species in a 55G tank is likely a problem.


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## gtphale (Oct 12, 2008)

Your going to want to drop your species down from 6 to 3 and have a 1m to 3 or 4 female. Unless you want to try an all male mbuna tank.


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## cichfeeble (Jan 12, 2010)

Regarding the stocking...

My original stocking plan came from the cichlidrecipe website, 55g example, which actually did have quite a few species suggested all together, including the mixing of Julies and Malawi species. I was trying to do my research and integrate everything I read.

It did seem strange to me that the cichlidrecipe site was proposing more risky combinations than most other places. But I also did not really have much context for judging whether the other stocking examples in other locations were being conservative.

As for my ultimate selections, which ended up with the mbuna (going even further afield), my LFS emphatically stated that I shouldn't have any problems. I don't want to *blame* the LFS, because ultimately it's my responsibility to educate myself. But they insisted up and down, that I shouldn't worry. That as long as they're introduced young, they'll sort it out. And with lots of rock, there shouldn't be problems.

That said, now I've got what I've got...

As for the male/female ratios, neither I nor the LFS had much confidence in the gendering, because of the ages, but my best guess based on what I've observed so far, is as follows:

Julidochromis ornatus - suspect 2m/1f
Red Empress - suspect 1m/2f
Electric Blue - 1m/1f/1?
Pse. saulosi - 1m/2f
Zebras - 2m/1f
Yellow Labs - 1m/2f

Of course, I can't be certain.

Right now, it seems like it would be alarmist for me to just start bringing fish back, if there aren't any problems at the moment. I am wondering if it would be reasonable to "wait and see", and if I start having issues, to then bring back the problem fish.

I understand that on principle, it is expected that I will have problems. Just wondering if I can wait. The LFS isn't going away, and they'd certainly take the fish back, if and when necessary.

Thoughts?


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

If you introduced them all young and around the same time, in my experience, they will for the most part learn to tolerate each other into adulthood after setting up their pecking order and drawing their "lines in the sand", as long as the tank is large enough for the species you plan to keep.

If you introduce other similar tankmates later on this might not be the case. With fishtanks this is one instance where bigger is definately better.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

No problem with waiting, but be prepared for quick action. It can be an overnight thing. However, if you do find you need to reduce species and increase individuals of each...it WILL be harder as mentioned to introduce adult fish.


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