# Fish attacking each other to near-death



## lulaagrl (Mar 1, 2014)

Hi everyone! Let me preface this by saying that I do have some experience with fish-keeping, but we are new to cichlids. We took in my sister-in-law's 5 cichlids back in July as she had no room in her current living situation and we are the "animal people" of the family. They're in a 30 gallon tank, which I'm wondering it if might be too small and possibly part of the problem we're having now.

I've always done about 15 to 20 percent water changes every week and a half. Unfortunately I didn't have a gravel vacuum so I think that may have started the problem too, with all the gunk building up. I've got one now. Nitrate levels were always a little high, maybe around 20-30 ppm. Nitrites and chlorine always right at 0, pH around 8.2. Ammonia usually about .5, a little high.

We took a vacation for 4 days and had friends feeding the fish and when we came back, our Melanochromis auratus (we've tried to identify the species but could be wrong) had totally changed. He was yellow and black striped and he had grown and become grey and black. I read online that this could be because he's trying to become dominant, so we thought there were just some dynamic changes and didn't do anything about it. Within 2 days we realized that our usually dominant fish in the tank (we think a Metriaclima barlowi... or Albino Socolofi Cichlid) was severely sick. She was at the top of the tank gasping for air and her tail looked like it had been bitten off. I put her in an isolation tank and at first she was so lethargic and could barely keep herself upright but within 24 hours she was fine and now is doing well and her tail has sprouted a little bit back. It's been about a week so we've been planning on letting her tail grow back over a month or so before trying to re-introduce her.

During that process I tested the water in the initial tank and realized nitrate was up to 60 (maybe overfeeding from our friend combined with buildup of gunk??) so I immediately did about a 40 percent water change and used the gravel vacuum to get all the gunk out. It's still high, probably around 40 now, but I'll keep doing changes every few days until I can get it down. We thought we were out of the woods but then the other day realized that the now-dominant Melanochromis auratus, along with our largest fish (possibly Metriaclima estherae) were teaming up against a second fish and chasing her constantly. She's possibly a L. caeruleus. I thought it was because there weren't enough hiding places so we added a lot of hideaways and rock features to really fill the tank and ensure everyone had a spot, but she continued to stay at the top of the tank and never tried to find a spot, meanwhile the largest fish was taking over several hideaways as his own and not letting anyone come in. The 5th fish is possibly a Maylandia lombardoi male but so far has been uninvolved in the fighting.

This morning the small possible L. caeruleus was exhibiting the same behavior that the original fish I had to isolate was doing, so I put her in isolation a few hours ago. I tried treating her with Methylene blue thinking maybe it was nitrate poisoning but so far no change. She is now at the bottom of the tank breathing but not swimming at all and keeps flipping upside down. Her tail is missing chunks now too so I think they must have bitten it off. We've added a little spirulina to the tanks. We also do aquarium salt, we treat with API tap water conditioner for chlorine/chloramine, and also pH 8.2. We've also been adding the "outbreak!" bacteria blend to help with the bio filter and a few drops of ACUREL BodyGuard and HealthGuard. They get fed once a day, usually tropical flakes, algae bites, boiled peas, or bloodworms (I mix it up). They've of course got carbon filters and bubblers.

Does anyone have any advice besides cleaning/getting the levels down which is what I'm working on... anything we can do to help the now deathly ill fish get better? And more long-term - do you think there's a problem with the 30 gallon setup and might we forever need to keep certain fish separated?

Thanks so much.


----------



## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Unfortunately, you've surmised correctly that the tank is too small. What are the dimensions? At minimum, for most malawi mbuna, a 4 foot tank is required (standard 55g). For some high aggression mbuna such as Melanochromis auratus, Metriaclima lombardoi a 75g tank is suggested as minimum while others will recommend a 6 foot tank.
There are two methods of stocking mbuna, in breeding groups or as an all male tank. For the former, each breeding group typically consists of one male and several females. Due to the aggressive nature of these fish, multiple females help spread the aggression so that there isn't one fish being constantly harassed, which often leads to illness and death.
The other method, all male, consists of multiple males from various genus which don't look alike. This stocking arrangement is often prone to aggression problems and is considered as advanced.
So. The fish are likely fighting over territory, which there isn't enough of. Eventually you will have deaths. Your options as I see them are to rehome these fish and stock your tank with fish appropriate for it's size, or purchase a much larger aquarium and attempt to add more of each species in sufficient sizes to offset the aggression (as explained regarding breeding groups), or, add more adults of different species (as explained regarding the all male tank). However, purchasing adult mbuna can be costly as opposed to stocking with juveniles. 
The auratus and lombardio are often stocked in 1m:7+f. The rest being 1m:4f.


----------



## lulaagrl (Mar 1, 2014)

Thanks so much for your insight. Basically when the tank was given to us, sister-in-law said, "We have a magnet cleaner so you don't have to clean much, just use that and you should be good." I knew better as I've had fish before (mostly bettas and tetras, though), and I knew about cycling and the works. I, however, did not know about all of the aggression/stocking/etc. issues unique to these fish. I believe she had bought these fish at Petsmart or a similar place and was told that they'd all do fine together and just relied on the advice of the person there. We will plan to get a much bigger tank but is there a way to keep all these species together? From the sounds of it we are going to need to have a different m to f ratio as you described, but can all these 5 species still be in the tank together if they are in a much bigger tank? We also are not completely sure about genders, so that will be a tough one.

Does anyone have advice for the currently sick fish, any treatments I can do? She's not looking better but not looking much worse either. She hasn't eaten today and is looking pretty skinny even though she did eat yesterday.


----------



## oleskool (Jan 1, 2014)

All the advice previous was good. As fish grow they will demand more territory. Think about it, in the wild they would just chase the weaker fish away. Confined there is nowhere for that fish to go. The fish doing the chasing thinks he is still being challenged. The fish may heal, forget about the trauma, and resume eating. Human boxers, for example need time to heal after a fight. I had a Red Devil that I added to a tank, got along fine until it grew. Food made it more aggressive. A Jack Dempsey was all that he would allow to stay in a 55gal. The Jack would only eat food that made it to the bottom. This remained even after the Jack was the only fish left in the tank. I chalked it up to years of fear. But the Jack Dempsey lived a long 12 years. The Red Devil only about 6 years.


----------



## lulaagrl (Mar 1, 2014)

Thank you for the info.

Does anyone know how to tell for sure what gender the Melanochromis auratus is? He started out the female black and yellow combination and now is the male black color with blue stripe but could he also just be a dominant female?


----------



## ScoobyDoo27 (Jan 5, 2014)

lulaagrl said:


> Thank you for the info.
> 
> Does anyone know how to tell for sure what gender the Melanochromis auratus is? He started out the female black and yellow combination and now is the male black color with blue stripe but could he also just be a dominant female?


I'm no expert but I believe only the dominant males will turn black like that. The females will always stay yellow and black.

Here is a little info with pictures of males and females. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=750


----------



## lulaagrl (Mar 1, 2014)

Thank you.

The injured fish ended up dying overnight. I am just so frustrated that these fish were sold like this and crammed into a tank where they never would have all survived, and that the associate at the store said it was all fine. I am also frustrated with myself for not removing her sooner. It all could have been prevented 

This board is certainly opening up my eyes a lot to these dynamic fish and their needs.


----------



## BillD (May 17, 2005)

One thing seldom mentioned to reduce aggression is to lower the tank temp. It has the further benefit of increasing dissolved oxygen and slowing bacterial growth.


----------



## lulaagrl (Mar 1, 2014)

Thanks for that tip!

We now have 2 fish in each 30 gallon tank that we have and there hasn't been any aggression since. We are looking to get a 75 gallon and split it in half so there will be a bit more room for each set of fish. This is all I can think of doing right now without going out and getting more fish, which we don't want to do. I already feel bad enough that these guys are in captivity when the situation is really not fair to them


----------

