# 100 Gallon Tank - Questions to ask a Tank Designer



## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

I am getting back into aquariums after a several year absence. Previously had a 50 gallon mixed community freshwater for several years and then switched to a marine tank for several more.

As we are remodeling the main floor of our home, it's a perfect time for me to integrate a space for a sizable aquarium in our design effort. I have an excellent space that would provide 6-8' of linear run and 24-30" in width. I am leaning to an Mbuna tank, as it seems to give me the color and action I had in my marine tank, but in a hardscape environment which would work well in my home.

I will be meeting with several well-reputed fish stores who also sell tanks and may have some capacity in custom tank design. Ideally, they would be able to work with my design-build contractor who is completing the renovations on my home, but I may be overthinking it.

Two questions:

One - Aside from ensuring the floor is strong enough to support the weight of the tank, out of sunlight, and easy access to power and potentially plumbing - do you have any specific guidance you would have for a home design-builder to make an aquarium set-up more effective?

Two - When I meet with the fish stores, where would you focus your questions? For instance, is there much interest in having a cichlid aquarium that could be hard-plumbed (for either top-off or drainage)? Positioning of electrical outlets? Space within the cabinetry to exhaust heat?

My first time on this forum - so thanks all for your support.

David


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## Drake1588 (Jul 19, 2017)

Access to a water supply is handy as well. Pythons are good and all, but a 25 or 50 foot hose stretched through the house is a nuisance, plus emptying and rerolling the hose. So a drain installed nearby and access to a cold water source might come in really handy if it can be done without a huge amount of cost/dislocation.

I think you have the right mindset and questions to ask - all of it should be a focus. If they are hassled by you being thorough, they're the wrong people to install a tank into your home, period.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Thanks Drake.

The positioning of the aquarium will be against a wall where, on the other side, is a sink. I can python it there with about 10-15' of run. There is a wide range of advice on how often the water needs to be changed in a Mbuna tank, I guess partly driven by how overstocked the tank is to mitigate aggression. If I do well with the hardscape, there should be enough natural hideouts that I wouldn't be overstocking. All that said, it would be a fairly low cost option to run a faucet line through the wall to an appropriate area tankside, and hopefully the drain would be the same.

One other quick question. I assume a single ~100 gallon tank is fine for Mbuna? I hope to have a robust enough hardscape that the ecosystem functions naturally (the cichlids will breed, there is space for the fry to hide, survivors make it and the balance don't). If that is the case, I don't see the value in having a separate tank for breeding.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Let nature take its course, if you're going to have mixed mbuna get a crew of synodontis lucipinnis, 5 or 6, to pick off the fry. You won't want them to survive if they're hybrids because a lot of time mbuna hybrids can be hyper aggressive and/or ugly as heck lol.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Thanks Daniel. I do plan to let nature takes its course. That said, I had thought if you had picked distinct enough mbuna species they wouldn't interbreed as long as I kept high female to male ratios. I clearly don't need hyper aggressive fish in the tank - had some challenges with my last marine tank.


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## Drake1588 (Jul 19, 2017)

That should be about an optimal tank size. I've found the key to allowing just a fry or two from some batches to make it to size is to provide some very small hidden crevices or pockets between rocks where the fry can grow if they get lucky enough to find it. A pile of 1-2" rock chips can work as well. I had small pile of marble chunks on the sand substrate and when I was doing a deep clean, found three -1/2" demasoni fry hiding out in it. Tiny crevices between the rock and sand can work too, assuming the larger fish can't dig them out. That's of course if you want them to gradually increase their numbers.

Water changes really depend mostly on your filtration and bioload. If you have running water right behind it, and cost isn't a huge object, an overflow and drip system could nearly automate the process. Not my area of expertise, but I've seen a few versions of them and it seems pretty handy for larger setups.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Thanks again Drake.

I was already asked by one of the aquarium suppliers if I was aiming for HOB or canister devices. Does an overflow/drip system work better with one approach or the other, or is it a standalone system? I certainly like the idea of reducing water change-outs but assume you can't really get out of them altogether. But fewer changes and more stable water is appealing.

I plan to have the rock as you described, so that sounds good. I only expect to have a few gradual survivors but need to do more research to mitigate the possibility of interbreeding (or to recognize when I have a young aggressor) as I'd hate to have one go postal with an established tank.


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## Drake1588 (Jul 19, 2017)

Very welcome! I've never done a drip system myself, but I have read/seen great things about them regarding reduction in maintenance and improvements in average water quality. I'd think a sump would be the best setup for one, followed by a canister setup. Sump if you want it to be a completely clean looking show tank - just plumb everything so it runs through the back of the stand, and the sump sits hidden under the stand.

Joey (King of DIY) on YouTube is an excellent resource. I'd think you'd want a more professional job done, but he's good about getting in to explaining the How and Why, and the DIY stuff is really more for fun and people on smaller budgets. Video below is one where he talks about drip systems - how they work, how to build a simple one, and why they can be beneficial.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Neat. I had initially liked this approach for the maintenance implications, but having a much more consistent water quality is also very appealing. Also sounds as if it would be easy to hide all this work in the cabinetry under the tank, making for a nice show tank. I take it that if you have a sump, you take care of the filtration issues in the sump itself rather than needing a separate canister or HAB filter? I see a lot of folks recommending some level of redundancy by having two filtration devices. Would it make sense to have a second device in parallel with the sump?

Cheers


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## Drake1588 (Jul 19, 2017)

dcheney888 said:


> Neat. I had initially liked this approach for the maintenance implications, but having a much more consistent water quality is also very appealing. Also sounds as if it would be easy to hide all this work in the cabinetry under the tank, making for a nice show tank. I take it that if you have a sump, you take care of the filtration issues in the sump itself rather than needing a separate canister or HAB filter? I see a lot of folks recommending some level of redundancy by having two filtration devices. Would it make sense to have a second device in parallel with the sump?
> 
> Cheers


Should be able to hide almost everything by routing it to the sump. Only things necessarily coming/going to the aquarium would be the lines that come off the drilled bulkheads for the intake and exhaust for the sump.

If the sump is large enough, it really is pretty much stand alone. If you like watching air bubbles, hiding a sponge filter or two in the tank behind rockwork can go a long way towards making sure the biological filtration has redundancy, but with a sump, you shouldn't really need it.

Sumps are really the way to go for larger tanks. Bigger is better, but really anything 10 gallons or bigger is going to give you better biological filtration than a canister filter because the water has much longer to stay in contact with the bacteria for each pass through. Biggest thing to think about is what kind of media to use - some of the fluidized media can be extremely loud, and unnecessarily so. Fluidized sand works really well and is the quietest typically for biological filtration.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Sounds good Drake. I will focus on a sump option and your heads-up on filter media is appreciated. While I don't need to be at whisper silence, "extremely loud" let alone loud won't work in this location.


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## Drake1588 (Jul 19, 2017)

dcheney888 said:


> Sounds good Drake. I will focus on a sump option and your heads-up on filter media is appreciated. While I don't need to be at whisper silence, "extremely loud" let alone loud won't work in this location.


Sand can be super quiet if you get it set up right, and it can even be in a separate cylinder that is between the sump and aquarium return if you want to go that route and keep the sump as a simpler system focusing on mechanical and initial biological filtration. When I get around to building my sump next summer, that's the route I'm probably going.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Asked LFS for a ballpark estimate of a proper build-out for a 6' long aquarium. He suggested two options (with pricing which I can check myself, as he did this just for illustrative purposes). The LFS hasn't done a drip feed system (my preference), so there may be some back and forth if that system impacts his standard approach.

Would appreciate any advice as the proposed solutions:

125 gallon 72 x 18 x 22 tall. Eshops 200 sump and Lifegard Quietone 3000 (758 gph) plus a magnaflow 360 canister filter. 250w heater
180 gallon 72 x 24 x 24. Eshops 300 sump and Lifegard Quietone 4000 (1022 gph) plus a magnaflow C-530 canister. 300w heater

I will probably go LED lighting with the modules you can clip in to get the color / intensity I want.
Recommends either a silica substrate (cheaper, easier to clean), or a 50/50 mix of coral and silica.

Any obvious no-no's in this mix?


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## Drake1588 (Jul 19, 2017)

Any time I do a big project, I like to grab some cardboard boxes and break them down, then build a rough skeleton matching the dimensions of my proposed setup. It's cheap to do with Chewy boxes if you happen to have dogs or cats and order from them a lot as I do.

By doing this, I can get a rough visual for the space it will take up in a proposed area, and see if it impedes any walking lanes, moving other furniture, etc. The drip system is actually pretty easy to do yourself - so long as you have a plumber set up a proper pvc drain to the nearby bathroom drain. You want it to be close to floor level, I think, so that you can set up an overflow in an area of the sump, and the drip just goes directly into the sump. Since the tank is equipped with an overflow, it'll dump into the sump, the sump as it slowly refills will trickle into the drain, voila, no worries of flooding. They should be able to figure out how to do it pretty easily. It's pretty much some pvc p traps and straight lines (elbows to make sure you don't get back flow into the tank in case of your main drain getting partly clogged somewhere else in the house.

I think either option would be great, just mock it up with cardboard or something to see what each looks like in your design space. Conceptually I like the 180 better, but I am partial to deeper tanks since they give you a much more involved experience and the fish really appreciate the extra room on that axis. 6" is a full 33% more space for them to enjoy. Everything other than the heater looks good - I would personally run two 300w heaters, never know when a heater might fail, and it's something easy to overlook when it's all concealed away in the stand.

Only complaint about the sump, and I do mean only, is that it doesn't seem very customizable if you want to change something later. Acrylic - great, I don't think there's a better sump material out there if you want to be able to see into it. The Chambers themselves are pretty large, so if you want to do multiple types of filtration, it could be hard, but honestly, the way they have it in the video it's doing exactly what it needs to be doing, and acrylic is super easy to drill compared to glass if you do want to plumb a drip/drain into it.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

I am fortunate enough that I can integrate the aquarium dimensions into the plan that is being drawn up for the first floor remodel. They can then provide 3-D perspectives which is nearly as good as your box, and better in the sense that these drawings reflect our future rather than current layout of the home.

I am leaning to the 180 gallon tank for the reasons you describe, and the incremental cost doesn't seem that scary. The only downside I see is that for those who promote overstocking to mitigate aggression, that's another 50% more fish to stock (which can also be an upside if my wife doesn't wince at the price tag). I guess my main dilemma is whether I overstock or go with my original intent of a more natural, sustainable balance as per this note:

https://www.fish-etc.com/aquascaping-ma ... id-habitat

While it seems as if a few survivors could make it in a well-scaped tank, it seems to be an open question as to whether you should take the risk of an unwanted x-breed with bad manners growing up in an established tank, or if it's better to have a hit squad of fish that would take care of fish fry before they even get the chance to establish themselves.

I keep saying thanks, but I appreciate your comments Drake.

Cheers


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## Drake1588 (Jul 19, 2017)

Very welcome DC!

Honestly, I've scaled back to understocked tanks and I like it a lot more. I have seven 2"-3.5" peacocks in my 75. 9 demasoni, 2 yellow lab, and 1 maingano in my 40 breeder, and about 18 small fish in my South American 55. It's a lot more enjoyable and much more relaxing to me to watch them have space to interact with their environment without tripping over another fish every time they go to swim somewhere. I was at my LFS today picking up some plants to give them a try with the peacocks, and the most beautiful tank they have is heavily aquascaped and understocked. It's just fun to watch smaller fish in a big environment where they have some real room to explore a bit.

A 6 foot tank is big enough to do a ton of hidey holes in, so you could go with like 30-40 fish and see how it looks to you, then add more if it see!s to need more life to it. Full grown Mbuna are shockingly large, so maybe less is more in a case like this.


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## Drake1588 (Jul 19, 2017)

https://goo.gl/photos/NDwt3UwEQqX3R2iq7

The photo with my thumb in the frame is how my 75 looked a week ago.

Added the plants today and moved the peacocks back over from the 40B they were vacationing in. My city is using a ridiculous amount of chloramine, and when I overdosed to compensate for it, it depleted the oxygen in the water almost completely. I lost all five juvenile borleyi and barely managed to save the peacocks. No more using a python for refilling the tank for me.

The 40B is rough looking, but it's a work in progress, hence all the random stuff around it, but the Dems are pretty happy in it and the labs do what they've always done -swim up and down the glass all day!


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Sorry to hear about the chloramine incident. I had a housekeeper conscientiously clean the underside of my top panel with windex and she killed 80% of my well-established marine aquarium. Gutted.

I still have another 4-5 months to decide how best to stock the tank, but the advice I have received in the past few days confirms my interest in mbuna, probably a move to a 180g tank, just rock and sand, and use of a pump and drip feed. Also confirmed I should start with juveniles. It may be that I am better off dropping back to 4-5 species and allowing all that extra cover mitigate the aggression rather than overstocking. Still leaves me with an open question as to whether I should be cheering on the fish fry survivors or keeping some fish about that would be the hit squad. Alternatively, it may be that backing off to 4-5 species allows me to pick ones with relatively low risk of x-breeding given the ample space in the tank.

Regards


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Do both...stock to avoid cross breeding and stock Synodontis multipunctatus to control fry. If nothing else, once you get your ratios working well, survivor fry can upset the balance.


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## Drake1588 (Jul 19, 2017)

Glad you're doing all the important work now! Good fish keeping is about planning ahead most of the time. YouTube has been maybe the most valuable resource for me in deciding stock choices - I can get a good idea of what various fish look like as adults, how big they are (relatively) and how that interacts in an aquarium situation.

Still photos just don't do a lot of Mbuna justice. I thought Rusty's we're one of the ugliest fish I'd ever seen until I saw video of them in motion and really got to have a better idea of what their colors will be in a real world tank.

Honestly, adding some 1-2" juveniles to an established tank usually works, so long as there are some really small caves and crevices that aggressive adults can't get into. It works a lot better than the other way around, since you have other adult fish that are much larger threats to territory. Might be good to start with 3 dissimilar species, then figure out a month or so later what to add as a 4th and/or more by what you feel is missing from the tank regarding color or behavior. If you started with juves, they won't be so dissimilar in size so casualties will be at a minimum that way.

I enjoy Fincasters and Steve Poland Cichlids quite a bit, the videos are well made and give viewers a pretty accurate representation most of the time.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Thanks again for all the advice. I enjoy planning and integrating all your perspectives will help me make more informed choices and have a better handle on how to adjust. Part of my interest in cichlds is the need to observe and experiment - there is no golden recipe for a perfect tank. But having a better handle on what doesn't work, puts me in better stead to give a shot at combos that have a better chance to realize my goal - something close to nature and in balance which is enjoyable to observe - be it at informed observer or a casual one.


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## TNChris (Apr 11, 2017)

Sounds like you have good info so far and are planning this out well - the main issue with built in tanks is access, especially if something needs to be moved/repaired/etc like the sump. As long as you can fully access everything from behind or somewhere, everything else will be straight forward. I recently got into the African cichlids, have (and still have) large freshwater planted tanks, have done marine in the past, really the liveliness, color and maintenance required of the Africans is hitting the perfect balance for me - if you're like me (sounds like you are) start with the bigger tank on your list, there are so many great African cichlids you'll want to keep as many as you can and I don't think the set up cost is going to be dramatically different.

LED lighting has come a long way since the last time I set up a tank (5 yrs ago) - I just set up two tanks with LED lighting and it all cost me less than 100 bucks and I'm growing tons of plants under one and really happy with the lighting on my cichlid tank. It's almost too bright. 6 ft tank, two 36" 1W LED fixtures, will attach a photo. PM for details, cost me for that tank less than 80 bucks.


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## TNChris (Apr 11, 2017)




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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Nice tank Chris - thanks for sharing. If I can ask, what did you initially stock your tank with and how did it all shake out? I am still scratching my head a little on how to strike the rations with unsexed juveniles. It looks like most folks overbuy and then sell/trade/cull their stock to get to the desired m:f ratios.

In terms of maintainability, its a good point to raise as I have the same hard-wiring. Planning up front makes for a lot easier work down the road. As I plan on giving all the space under the tank to tank/fish related kit and supplies, I would imagine there is ample room to position all the kit so that it's easy to clean/maintain and ultimately replace. But it's clearly worth stressing this requirement to the LFS and builder.


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## TNChris (Apr 11, 2017)

I was limited locally for available cichlids so I cycled with 10 of what was available, some of which I still have some of which I don't - in hindsight I would have done the fishless cycling with ammonia - I ordered the fish I wanted from a dealer and paid a little extra for sexed (hopefully correctly) fish 2M:6F of 5 species - they were a little larger, cost more, but worth it I think. WIll still probably end up having to cull some over time as they get larger. The dealer guaranteed the sexing and will replace (so they say) of at least the males. Some culling happens naturally I noticed with some of my starter fish, as they got older some became dominant and killed others, etc

Chris


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## Drake1588 (Jul 19, 2017)

dcheney888 said:


> Nice tank Chris - thanks for sharing. If I can ask, what did you initially stock your tank with and how did it all shake out? I am still scratching my head a little on how to strike the rations with unsexed juveniles. It looks like most folks overbuy and then sell/trade/cull their stock to get to the desired m:f ratios.
> 
> In terms of maintainability, its a good point to raise as I have the same hard-wiring. Planning up front makes for a lot easier work down the road. As I plan on giving all the space under the tank to tank/fish related kit and supplies, I would imagine there is ample room to position all the kit so that it's easy to clean/maintain and ultimately replace. But it's clearly worth stressing this requirement to the LFS and builder.


Might want to add 1-2 feet of space for the back in the room design and an access door or panel to it. Glad someone brought that up because it can be a major headache for built in tanks. Could even have a small closet space to store extra fishkeeping paraphenalia with it. Not a bad hiding place for valuables either if the panel/door isn't obviously a panel or door.

I'm not sure there is ever a good answer to stocking, sadly, because it varies so widely amongst species and even individuals within the species. If money isn't a huge object, buying more than you need and selling extras is one of the easiest ways to get exactly the balance you want. Also, spending a little extra to buy 2-2,.5" Mbuna is a much better bet on getting the sex ratios right without as much hassle for some species.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

I'm not sure if I have a an additional foot to give behind the aquarium. Already coming into some other constraints and may have to scale back if I can't find some other solutions. If I am accessing from front only, will need to consider how best to ensure it is easy to maintain.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

If you're only going to be able to access the tank from the front, get a drilled tank and use either a sump or canister filters attached to the bulkheads. You can either use an overflow box or get a custom 3D background like I did and it hides all the pvc plumbing and looks great. No hoses run behind the tank, no intakes, heaters etc showing.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Also I would not do an in-tank background unless you can get behind. I allow 18 inches behind all my tanks.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I keep circulation pumps behind my background to keep everything stirred up and it stays pretty clean.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Me too, but fry get back there and I really need to be behind to net them. And the Synodontis like to go over the top. Grrr.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

That's why I got my background a little taller than the tank and notched it out then cut slots at the top like an overflow box. But on second thought, if it's going to be a "built-in" then an internal overflow box would probably be ideal...


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I find the screens come off eventually (after 10 years or so) as well.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

What do you mean by the screens?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Holes in the background at the bottom to let water through to the intakes are covered by screens.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Oh okay, I see what you mean. I have a sump and my 180 is drilled on the bottom for two drains and two returns. No intakes on the bottom to worry about with that setup. I have standpipes otherwise the entire volume of the tank would drain into my house in the event of a power outage, do not want to go through that again lol. My circulation pumps behind the background are pointed straight down to blow up any and all detritus that would otherwise accumulate back there.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't like sumps. The intakes take care of debris...just the darn fry swimming through the screens. Built in nursery tank.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Yeah sumps can be a pain to get set up the way you want but the possibilities are limitless. I know I swore and griped about it for the first few months until I figured out the best combination of media. I've never gotten the biological filtration capacity I have now from canisters. Plus I can grow plants in it and run purigen and denitrifying reactors. It's been a while since I've had readable levels of nitrates... I've had fry get behind my background too but they always end up getting sucked down the drain and into the sump.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Thanks for all these exchanges.

I will print them out for discussion with my tank designer.

I still need to work out the basic question of whether I have 6' of run or not (I do, but when taking into account the depth of the tank and access, not so clear).

Cheers


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