# losing fish



## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

13razorbackfan said:


> GTZ said:
> 
> 
> > Impossible to pinpoint a cause if there are no physical symptoms and the water parameters are all ok. Are the remaining fish still eating? I'd continue with the water changes, 20-30% daily but leave out the salt, it's not needed. What's the current pH? Continue with the carbon.
> ...


I'm kind of in the same boat as the OP.

I've been losing a few fish a week lately. They all eat well, their poop looks normal, they swim actively. No overt aggression going on in the tank unless they are beating the snot out of each other after we go to bed. No physical indication of fighting such as torn fins etc. No physical signs of distress such as fin clamp etc. No visible signs of any parasites.

But boom... I wake up every few days and one is dead. I have been doing rather large water changes each week on the order of 50-60%. I'll try reducing the amount of each WC and see if that helps. My water chemistry is good. pH 7.8, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate about 40. I haven't checked the kH recently but it was good when I checked it a few weeks ago.

I have been adverse to treating the tank with anything as I have no idea what to treat for. I certainly don't want to try a shotgun approach of dosing the tank with a bunch of meds that might only stress the remaining fish without necessarily treating the underlying issue.

It's rather frustrating.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

rich_t said:


> 13razorbackfan said:
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> > GTZ said:
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I wouldn't change your water change amount/schedule. 50-60% weekly is not too much. You should be ok there. Do you add anything to the tank as far as additives? What type of de-chlorinator do you use? How often after the water changes are your fish dying?


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

13razorbackfan said:


> rich_t said:
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> > 13razorbackfan said:
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I don't use any additives other than Prime when I do a WC. Some die the day after a WC, some die a few days later. On only one occasion did one die on the same day as the WC. It was about 12 hours after the WC that I found him.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

rich_t said:


> 13razorbackfan said:
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> > rich_t said:
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I am not real sure to be honest without any signs of illness it is hard to diagnose. Anything else changed that could have caused these problems? Anything you can think of such as aerosol spray such as room deodorizer or anything else airborne?


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

13razorbackfan said:


> rich_t said:
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> > 13razorbackfan said:
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Nothing that I can think of and I've been racking my brain trying to figure it out.

Chiclids aren't the cheapest of fish and it really stinks to see all that money getting flushed. I figure I've already lost at least $100 worth of fish. So needless to say, I would really like to figure out what is going on in that tank.

The only airborne contaminate that I can think of is cigarette smoke, but I've had other tanks that my smoking didn't seem to effect, including a marine tank.

I do wash my hands before I feed them just to remove any nicotine or other contaminates that might be on my fingers.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

If there are no symptoms leading up to the death, (loss of appetite, hanging at the top, gasping, sunken belly, fuzzy growth anywhere on the fish, flashing/scratching excessively, hiding, sitting on the bottom, etc), then it's usually either an aggressive tankmate, a toxin in the water or a bacterial disease, although with the latter you'll usually see some kind of growth on the fish before it dies. 
When fish are eating and swimming normally one day and dead the next the #1 cause is an aggressive tankmate. You really don't need to see much in the way of aggression or injury before you start seeing dead fish.
I'm not saying it's definitely aggression but that's the most likely answer.

If it were something in your water, something to do with your water changes, then most likely you'd see all fish showing some sort of reaction to whatever it was. Do you notice the fish are congregating up at the top, or sitting on the bottom, soon after a water change?

One other possibility here is that some sort of toxin is getting on the fish's food. If you feed them by picking the food up with your fingers then it's possible to transfer whatever is on your fingers, (gasoline, soap, paint, cleaner residue), to the food and since not all of the food would come in contact with the toxin this could explain why some fish are impacted and others not.

What species and how many fish are you keeping?

Robin


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Robin said:


> If there are no symptoms leading up to the death, (loss of appetite, hanging at the top, gasping, sunken belly, fuzzy growth anywhere on the fish, flashing/scratching excessively, hiding, sitting on the bottom, etc), then it's usually either an aggressive tankmate, a toxin in the water or a bacterial disease, although with the latter you'll usually see some kind of growth on the fish before it dies.
> When fish are eating and swimming normally one day and dead the next the #1 cause is an aggressive tankmate. You really don't need to see much in the way of aggression or injury before you start seeing dead fish.
> I'm not saying it's definitely aggression but that's the most likely answer.
> 
> If it were something in your water, something to do with your water changes, then most likely you'd see all fish showing some sort of reaction to whatever it was. Do you notice the fish are congregating up at the top, or sitting on the bottom, soon after a water change?


No. They hide a bit during the water change, but begin swimming actively again within minutes of completing it.



> One other possibility here is that some sort of toxin is getting on the fish's food. If you feed them by picking the food up with your fingers then it's possible to transfer whatever is on your fingers, (gasoline, soap, paint, cleaner residue), to the food and since not all of the food would come in contact with the toxin this could explain why some fish are impacted and others not.


I do pick up the food with my fingers. But I wash my hands and rinse well before feeding them.



> what species and how many fish are you keeping?[
> 
> Robin


Good question.

I have about 20 fish in the tank now.

Most I got as a "package" from an online dealer. This may have been a mistake.

Below are a series of photos showing most of what I have. A few smaller guys are hiding. I do have two small multipunc cats as well.


















































































I know that some of those photos aren't the greatest. But they refuse to hold still to be photographed. And I thought my grand daughter was bad about moving during a photo shoot. LOL.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Picture #7, I believe I see a Nimbochromis venustus--that fish could be your problem. Look them up in the profiles section of the site. What size tank is this?

And you're right, getting them as a package isn't a good idea unless the package-er is knowledgeable about what species will work together. 
Unfortunately what happens is that you usually get the fish as juveniles and so all the fish get along fine for the first few months--even up to a year. But once mature the fish start looking to breed, claim territory, etc, and over night the dynamics of your tank can completely change. The larger your tank the less of an issue it will be but with some species even a large tank will not prevent problems.

Ideally what you should do is identify all the fish in your tank. You can post pictures in the fish id folder, (I think your pictures are good enough for id-ing). Then, once you've id'd them you've got to do some research and figure out which fish should be compatible with each other and what sort of male/female ratios they require. Then you'll need to re-home the fish that don't fit and perhaps buy a few more females to accommodate the species that require more females than males.

We've all had to do this with one tank or another. :? It's just part of keeping cichlids.

Robin


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Robin said:


> Picture #7, I believe I see a Nimbochromis venustus--that fish could be your problem. Look them up in the profiles section of the site. What size tank is this?
> 
> And you're right, getting them as a package isn't a good idea unless the package-er is knowledgeable about what species will work together.
> Unfortunately what happens is that you usually get the fish as juveniles and so all the fish get along fine for the first few months--even up to a year. But once mature the fish start looking to breed, claim territory, etc, and over night the dynamics of your tank can completely change. The larger your tank the less of an issue it will be but with some species even a large tank will not prevent problems.
> ...


The tank size is 120G. I bought the package and was told that the fish in the package would be compatible.

I know... I know... Fish dealers want to sell fish.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

pyrate, what type of Featherfins are you feeding brine shrimp?


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

I think that is a livingstonii and also...the demasoni could be causing some issues. Just real hard to say. What is the footprint of the 120g? I think yours is a 120g tall?


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Robin said:


> Picture #7, I believe I see a Nimbochromis venustus--that fish could be your problem. Look them up in the profiles section of the site. What size tank is this?
> 
> And you're right, getting them as a package isn't a good idea unless the package-er is knowledgeable about what species will work together.
> Unfortunately what happens is that you usually get the fish as juveniles and so all the fish get along fine for the first few months--even up to a year. But once mature the fish start looking to breed, claim territory, etc, and over night the dynamics of your tank can completely change. The larger your tank the less of an issue it will be but with some species even a large tank will not prevent problems.
> ...


Wow... I just looked up that Nimbochromis in the profile section.

I see what you mean.

He seems to be one of the more passive fish in the tank for the most part right now. I didn't realize that he might get up to 10 inches though.

He might also be a Nimbochromis livingstonii or a hybrid. Either way... Aggressive little sucker (per the profile), and gets bigger than I had in mind for this tank.

He is one of my favorites, but I'll rehome him if I have to.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

13razorbackfan said:


> I think that is a livingstonii and also...the demasoni could be causing some issues. Just real hard to say. What is the footprint of the 120g? I think yours is a 120g tall?


48" x 24" x 24".


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Yeah...he will probably need a 6' tank. They do get aggressive as they start to mature. Right now he may not be a big issue but can't say for sure.

You could also try when the tank lights go off...leave a low light lamp on in the room and see if you can see how they act after lights out...preferably if they can't see you.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

> He is one of my favorites, but I'll rehome him if I have to.


They are beautiful fish. I'd do some further research on them--it may be that your tank is too small--(not that a 120 is small, but as someone else has already mentioned, it's the footprint that makes the difference)--but it's worth looking into if you really like this species of fish.

That's one positive of having so many different fish--it's gives you the opportunity to decide what species you really want to keep and then you can build your tank around that species.

I do believe that you'll need to make some stocking changes for sure but keep a close eye on the fish for any symptoms as we don't know positively that it was aggression that killed your other fish.

Robin


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Spoke with one of the other moderators and he doesn't feel that your Nimbochromis would be the culprit at this age. He also said that Big Haps and mbuna, (both of which you have), can be kept together but it's a challenging mix for beginners.

So I wouldn't be quick to make any changes to the tank just yet but I would spend some extra time observing the fish to get some more info. Observe from a place where the fish can't see you so you can see what they do when they're not reacting to you and the possibility of getting fed.

Couple more questions. 
How long have you had these fish?
How many fish have died and what species were they?
And just to make sure: the fish that died had no symptoms whatsoever prior to dieing? You're certain you saw them eating and swimming normally the day before they died?

Robin


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Robin said:


> Spoke with one of the other moderators and he doesn't feel that your Nimbochromis would be the culprit at this age. He also said that Big Haps and mbuna, (both of which you have), can be kept together but it's a challenging mix for beginners.
> 
> So I wouldn't be quick to make any changes to the tank just yet but I would spend some extra time observing the fish to get some more info. Observe from a place where the fish can't see you so you can see what they do when they're not reacting to you and the possibility of getting fed.
> 
> ...


I've had the fish for just under a month.

About 10 have died. Mixed variety of species. I did not see any symptoms prior to their death.

I'm as certain as I can be that they were all swimming actively and eating normally prior to their deaths. Since this is a new tank and fish, I have been trying to keep a pretty close eye on everything.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Sounds like you're doing everything right--and with that many fish it's hard to be sure that everyone is eating--especially since it probably wasn't something you were looking for initially. New fish--wherever they come from--are more prone to illness just because they are stressed from all the traveling, netting, varying water conditions, etc prior to entering your tank. They would still show some sort of symptoms if they became sick. ..

Let us know how it goes. Hopefully there won't be any more deaths. From your pictures your tank looks great.

Robin


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Well this stinks.

Lost 2 more fish in the past 3 days.

one Demasoni, (looked fine yesterday; eating and swimming well).

one Hap that I was never sure of exact species. Same as above.

So... from 31 fish to 14 since 12/8/11. Very frustrating considering that amounts to about $200.00 down the toilet.

I do have one yellow lab that I'm going to start calling Lazarus. He was basically dead two days ago. He was laying on the bottom on his side. When I put in the net to try catch him, he did the most spectacular series of death rolls and spins while evading the net. I mean he was seriously doing loop de loops in the tank. I've never seen anything like it. Any how... He dodged behind and under the rocks.... At that point I couldn't find him. I figured he had wedged himself in a crevice and died.

He showed up about an hour ago looking no worse the the wear.

ETA: I did do a 50% WC about 4 hours ago.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Sorry you lost more fish.

So you're certain that both fish were eating and swimming normally yesterday? And the yellow lab: Any additional symptoms besides the ones you've mentioned? Are his fins tattered? Any scales missing? Is he eating today?

Most illnesses have symptoms that lead up to death so I'm still thinking it may be aggression
Have you had a chance to look at them from a place where they can't see you? That's the only way to learn the true interactions between your fish. It may not even be anything overt. What you might see is fish#1 kind of staying in one small area of the tank and then when he starts to swim someplace else fish#2, (the aggressor), will turn towards him sending fish#1 back to his spot. 
But you may actually witness some serious chasing if you watch long enough from a hidden spot.You have to watch them from a hidden spot because whenever your fish see you they basically forget about everything else and beg for food.

In the meantime, continue to do frequent partial water changes using a good quality dechlorinator.

Robin


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

They were both swimming and eating fine before they died. No signs of nipped fins on any of them that I could see.

The yellow lab didn't show up until after I feed the others, so I'll have to wait until later today to see if he is eating ok.

I have observed the tank with the lights out from a place where the fish couldn't see me and I do not see any overt aggression going on in the tank.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Have you thought about your food? Maybe you have a bad batch of food? Have you tried changing it to something else?

Could be something in the water your test kit is not showing. Do you have city water?

I am struggling to come up with any answers or possibilities so at this point just throwing things out.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Changing food is something that I hadn't thought about. Maybe I will give it a try.

Yes, on the city water.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

rich_t said:


> Changing food is something that I hadn't thought about. Maybe I will give it a try.
> 
> Yes, on the city water.


I would try changing food. Also...if you buy a different type/brand of food they may spit it out and not eat it at first. Some may eat it right away and some may not eat for a few days but once they get hungry they will start to eat. So don't worry if they don't eat it right away.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

13razorbackfan said:


> rich_t said:
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> 
> > Changing food is something that I hadn't thought about. Maybe I will give it a try.
> ...


If it is the food, I would think that it would have impacted the entire population within a couple of weeks if not days.

But I'll hit the store and pick up a different variety. It can't hurt. The stuff I have now is a fast sinking mini pellet that I got from the on-line fish retailer. It's what he feeds the fish that he sells and I figured I would keep them on a diet that they were already used to.

I prefer slow sinking pellets.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Robin said:


> Sorry you lost more fish.
> 
> So you're certain that both fish were eating and swimming normally yesterday? And the yellow lab: Any additional symptoms besides the ones you've mentioned? Are his fins tattered? Any scales missing? Is he eating today?
> 
> ...


Aha!!!

I think I found my possible aggressor. After closely observing the tank for several hours, I have noticed that one of my two remaining Demasoni is "herding" the other one into a corner quite a bit. I can only assume that he might be doing it to other fish as well also.

If I can catch the little bugger, he will be reassigned to a different body of water. Unfortunately I haven't had any luck catching him yet.

I did too good of a job in providing hiding places in my rock set up. So it looks like I'm going to have to remove most of it in order to catch him. 

I may go to a very minimal rock decor just to make catching fish easier in the future. I thought I was doing a good thing by providing them a lot off places to hide. But that doesn't do me any good if I need to catch one to put in QT or merely rehome to another tank.

ETA... I just caught him seriously chasing at least two others in the last hour also.

So he's definitely gone if I can catch him.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

The way I catch my fish is I will take the glass tops off my tank and pus my lights to the back with the light still on so everything "appears" normal to the fish. I will then leave the room for about 15 minutes to give them time to come back out(when I start playing with the top of my tank the fish go and hide) and then re-enter the room. They rush to the front and top of the tank waiting on food. I will then drop a few small flakes with one hand and have my large net ready with the other. I then move the net slowly to the top of the water but be sure not to let it break the surface. When the fish I want gets close enough I scoop him really quick. I usually catch more than one and release the ones I don't want. If you have patience then you might try this approach. It may take a couple of tries but when I miss the fish I usually have to wait 10-15 minutes before I can try again.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

I've had success with doing it similar to 13razorbackfan. 
I've also had success with removing two thirds of the water. Just seems in the shallower water they don't hide as much, perhaps because they are more 'concerned' with the shallow water. And also they get 'stuck' on one side or another. Having two nets, one to distract and one to catch can also help.

However you end up doing it it usually takes a little time and effort.

How many dems do you have in the tank? They're usually best when kept in a fairly large group and it's possible that you just need to have more of them--I don't know--it's also possible that this particular fish just isn't going to fit in no matter what.

Let us know how it goes

Robin


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Robin said:


> I've had success with doing it similar to 13razorbackfan.
> I've also had success with removing two thirds of the water. Just seems in the shallower water they don't hide as much, perhaps because they are more 'concerned' with the shallow water. And also they get 'stuck' on one side or another. Having two nets, one to distract and one to catch can also help.
> 
> However you end up doing it it usually takes a little time and effort.
> ...


I only have two left. So... I'm torn between getting rid of the aggressor or buying several more and hoping that it curbs the aggression.

I had reservations about adding them to the tank, but they are such good looking fish.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

I was able to catch and rehome the two remaining Demasoni.

I also drastically reduced the amount of rock scape to make it easier to catch fish that need catching.

I will observe the tank for a few days to see how things go.

If the remaining fish do well, I will look into adding additional fish to replace those that have died.

I appreciate the input in helping me (hopefully) resolve the fish loss in my tank.

I'll keep ya'll posted on how things go from here.

Worse case scenario... Turn it into a community tank.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Okay, sounds good, ryan.

One more thing. It would be wise of you to find out exactly what species you have in the tank and what sort of conditions those species prefer. And by conditions I mean food, and ph/water conditions, but most especially stocking. Some fish are just not meant to be kept in pairs, (they need to be kept harem-style with one male to 3-4 females), some species can't be kept with other species and in the case of the dems they need to be kept in a large group. 
I don't know exactly what you have--you may already have it right, (cept for the dems), but if you don't have it right then your tank is always going to be struggling.

 
Robin


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

UPDATE:

I haven't lost any more fish. I got rid of one final bully (Blue Scrapper) and things have settled down.

I have even started repopulating the tank and things are staying peaceful.

I found a guy at my LFS that is very knowledgeable on Lake Malawi chiclids. He has 11 tanks of them at his house.

He has helped me pick out colorful fish that so far are coexisting peacefully.

I appreciate all the help that you kind folks here have provided.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

THat's great to hear, rich_t. Glad we could help and sounds like you found someone truly helpful at the LFS.

Robin


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