# Converting 55gal salt to Cichlid tank---Need the Pro's help!



## Scooby1974

Hello everyone,

I had a cichlid tank up and running years ago but opted to try saltwater...it is too particular and I can't seem to keep fish alive so I'm switching back. 
What I am wondering is:

1. Can I use the "live sand" that I have in the tank now in a cichlid tank? I would pump out all my saltwater and do a few water changes to extract all the salt.

2. Should I pull out and bleach my texas holey rock/other rocks? Is that neccesary?

3. What test kit would you suggest?

4. I have a Fluval 303 can filter that worked well before. I don't have any carbon or anything in it, just the blue ball collection. Any suggestions as to continuing to use that?

I'm sure I'll have more questions...but that'll get us started!


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## Scooby1974

5. PH question...I keep reading that if you have a low PH you should limit the kids of cichlids you get. On one level it makes common sense since you don't need to do anything with your water. However, what fun is that? Is it simply a matter of figuring out how much baking soda to add in water changes?

6. Why a 50% water change EVERY WEEK? Is it due to the amount of ammonia that builds over time?


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## Scooby1974

Ok, I'll settle for less than the Pro's help..haha

I just don't want to screw this up, friends. I'd very much appreciate your help on this.


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## DJRansome

People have to have a chance to get home from work...
1-no
2-yes
3-API Master Freshwater plus KH and GH
4-What is the GPH of the Fluval 303
5-Some want easy maintenance, you like to do chemistry every week so enjoy. Be sure parameters are stable.
6-With ideal stocking your nitrate will build to 20ppm during the week. 50% weekly gets you back to 10ppm.


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## Scooby1974

Thank you, DJR! I greatly appreciate your help.

a. Why can't I use the live sand?

b. I'm not so sure I want to play chemist...however if if means that I can only purchase a very limited number of fish, it might well be worth some chemistry. What do others do? How many people have HIGH PH tap water? Is there are particular formula to figure out how much baking soda raises a gallon of water in PH?

c. If my tapwater comes out at 7.4 for example, what fish fall in that range?


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## DJRansome

Test it using the high range pH test...it may actually be 7.6 and you can get away with that for African Rift Lake fish. They are the main ones that need the higher pH.

You can use the live sand, but I would remove the sand and flush and then maybe bleach or dry it out completely for several days and then flush again. You want to kill critters (microscopic and otherwise) and remove bodies so they don't decay in your tank as they will die in the freshwater.

You have to experiment on what to add to fill the tank and then on what to add with each water change. Then test to be sure parameters are the same. Measure an amount in a bucket. Test. Add a little baking soda. Test. Add more if necessary. Test. Once you know an amount/gallon you have a guideline but either you have to test weekly or you have to be scrupulous about changing the exact amount of water/week.

You don't want your pH to change more than 0.02 at a time.

Many of the New World Cichlids and even East Africans are good with 7.4. You would have to check the profiles of each fish.


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## Scooby1974

My salt water tank has been without fish for a year. I've just kept it up and running without any fish in it. Call me crazy, but it is built into my wall so I didn't want to shut it down completely. Would the bleaching/drying out of sand be necessary in this instance?

I'll have my local fish store test my PH tomorrow.

Where would I look up profiles of each fish?

Where do you buy your fish?

DJ, i REALLY appreciate your help with this!


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## DJRansome

If you want to try for fish that like pH=7.4 try the New World Gallery or the West African Profiles. 
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/n ... allery.php
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/c ... php?cat=17

Why not go ahead and get the test kits so you can test yourself instead of having them do the test?

Check out the Reviews section for vendor feedback. Cichlid-forum prefers to keep vendor info there and out of the forums. Or you can PM Members to get specific recommendations.

I would remove the sand and wash out the salt no matter what. Buckets...hoses...run the water on full for 15 minutes or more just like before you add new sand to the tank. Then, as long as you have it out why not bleach, then dechlor to be sure. I imagine some if not all the critters could have lived without fish in the tank.


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## Scooby1974

Excellent. How would I "dechlor"?

Headed to the fish store today to pick up testing kits.


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## james1983

Scooby1974 said:


> Excellent. How would I "dechlor"?
> 
> Headed to the fish store today to pick up testing kits.


After the bleach water is removed, refill with fresh water and add a dechlorinator like Prime or Aquasafe. This is how I normally clean my plastic plants when they get algae on them.


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## Scooby1974

How many gallons per hour of filtration are ideal for a 55 gallon cichlid tank? :fish:


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## james1983

There's not written rule, but most people try for 10x turnover an hour.


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## Scooby1974

Bear with me here as I think out loud...so my Fluval 303 appears to spec out at 120gph...does that mean I am WAY under-filtered in a 55 gallon tank?

I should have something that is hitting at over 550gph?


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## DJRansome

I like 8X to 10X but I would not exceed 10X. So between 450 and 550 would be good.

The GPH I got when I googled fluval 303 was 103 GPH.


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## Scooby1974

DJRansome said:


> I like 8X to 10X but I would not exceed 10X. So between 450 and 550 would be good.
> 
> The GPH I got when I googled fluval 303 was 103 GPH.


130...103...dyslexic or not those numbers are low either way. 

Suggestions for an affordable filter?

Also, it looks like my tap water comes out around 8.2. That seems high, but I tested it myself straight from the tap and followed directions exactly.


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## james1983

You could do 2 aquaclear filters. If you want a canister I've had a Rena/api filstar for over 10 problem free years.


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## DJRansome

Rena Filstar XP XL for 450 GPH and $190.


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## Scooby1974

oh boy, time to miracle grow the money tree out back...maybe there is something on Craigslist...I don't have that kind of money.


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## DJRansome

An Aqua Clear 110 (hang on back filter, I have many of them) for 500 GPH is $80.


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## BC in SK

DJRansome said:


> The GPH I got when I googled fluval 303 was 103 GPH.


That's the GPH for a Hagen 103
20 years ago, I use to own both a Hagen 303 and 403 filters. 1st canisters I ever used. They replaced Supreme superking HOBs(rated at 600gph) and did a better job filtering IMO(and way less of a PITA!).
I am certain these were the manufacturer's ratings:http://www.aquahobby.com/products/e_fluval_2.php
So, 222 GPH.
I would think that the Hagen 303 would be virtually the same performance as it's successors, the Hagen 304 and now the Hagen 306, regardless of what GPH they are rated at.
All similar sized cannisters.
If the OP needs to increase water movement, the addition of circulating pumps or power heads would be a cheaper way to go.


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## Scooby1974

I have two power heads and the Fluval 303's stiff bar water return to move water around.

Do I need to worry about getting oxygen/bubbles in the water? I did use this same setup years ago for cichlids (minus the 2 power heads) and they seemed to do pretty well until I had to break it down.

How often do I need to clean the filter? And do you guys add any media in your filters?


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## DJRansome

What is the GPH of each power head? You add up the GPH of all devices.

The disruption of the water by your devices is fine without an air stone.

For an canister, whenever the water flow starts to diminish...you may be able to get away with once every 3 months.


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## Scooby1974

DJRansome said:


> What is the GPH of each power head? You add up the GPH of all devices.
> 
> The disruption of the water by your devices is fine without an air stone.
> 
> For an canister, whenever the water flow starts to diminish...you may be able to get away with once every 3 months.


425 GPH per powerhead...so 850 GPH

Plus 222 GPH from the Fluval 303 filter


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## Scooby1974

Just cleaned the Fluval canister. 3 levels. bottom is filled with round prickly balls to catch junk. Middle has a filter. Top has 3 carbon filled bags in them. I was actually surprised with how clean the filter was.


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## Scooby1974

Did a PH test after filling tank with tap water and it came out bright purple...has to be in the 8.4+ range.


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## Scooby1974

Can we post pictures in here? I cannot figure out how to attach them.


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## DJRansome

Instructions for pics are at the beginning of each forum.


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## Scooby1974

Do I need to add more filtration in light of the below info?



Scooby1974 said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is the GPH of each power head? You add up the GPH of all devices.
> 
> The disruption of the water by your devices is fine without an air stone.
> 
> For an canister, whenever the water flow starts to diminish...you may be able to get away with once every 3 months.
> 
> 
> 
> 425 GPH per powerhead...so 850 GPH
> 
> Plus 222 GPH from the Fluval 303 filter
Click to expand...


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## DJRansome

No...although I would prefer to get my GPH with filtration. In fact, I would not add both powerheads. You don't really want to exceed 550 GPH.


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## BC in SK

Scooby1974 said:


> Do I need to add more filtration in light of the below info?


Well,it's sort of debatable and there is no clear cut answer to that.
In my set ups, I run one canister per tank. No substrate and a circulating pump aimed to push waste into the intake of the filter. Canister is cleaned once a week with a water change to remove waste from the system. Would not want to clean more then one filter per tank and see no benefit for more filters other then possibly as insurance. 
Once a tank is set up, beneficial bacteria colonize according to the load in the tank. Some people run only a small air driven sponge filter.....and that is enough to ensure ammonia and nitrite remain at zero. 
More filters become redundant. Nitrite and ammonia will remain at zero in an established tank that is well maintained, regardless of how many filters you run.
IMO, having a bunch of filters accumulate waste does the system no good although I think with many cichlids, increased water flow is usually of some benefit.
Now, that is my opinion. I think you will find the majority of posters on this forum will advocate at least 2 filters. It's insurance, in case something should go wrong. One filter could plug or malfunction, and the other(s) would ensure that your water doesn't suddenly go bad.
Some of the HOBs out there would be a cheaper way to add a second filter. Also some type of filter could be attached to some of the power heads inside the tank.


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## DJRansome

BC in SK said:


> I think you will find the majority of posters on this forum will advocate at least 2 filters. It's insurance, in case something should go wrong. One filter could plug or malfunction, and the other(s) would ensure that your water doesn't suddenly go bad.


I am one of these, but it saves me an emergency trip since without a filter, the oxygenation would not be ideal, even for a short period. But for the larger tanks...on a 55G I would be fine with one filter. I do keep a spare HOB for my smaller tanks with only one filter.


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## Pdxmonkeyboy

sunsun 304b for the win. 5 big media trays, UV light, 525 gph ( it's probably around 400 real world with decent head pressure).. $72 via amazon.

I have about 5 of these all together. Some of my sunsun are 4yo, never a problem with them.


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## Scooby1974

Thanks everyone. I am securing all the test kits, tested PH out of tap (8)---tank is in the 8.2-8.4 range. I bought ammonium and am raising the temps up to 85 to get the cycling going.

Filter wise, if I did my Fluval canister + power head 250 + say a sunsun 304b I am in the = 870 gph range....does that make you guys happy?


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## Scooby1974

Assuming I do go with the Sunsun 304b....what MEDIA should I order for it (or any other filter for that matter)?


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## DJRansome

Some come with media, check on that first.


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## Pdxmonkeyboy

type of media not really that important. I tend to like ceramic rings as they are pretty cheap, don't seem to clog up that much and are easily rinsed off I'd that is your thing..I alwayd buy the ones that come in the zippered pouches. Some people like running purigen in one tray, I have some in mine, it absorbs organics but isn't really needed. Lava rock is mega cheap and works well...

lastly, every filter I have has at least one full tray of polyester filter floss in it. You can buy from arts and crafts store, target, etc. Just make sure that it's 100% poly, no fire retardent or anti microbial coating.


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## Scooby1974

You guys are awesome...I'm piecing things together. The only thing I am holding out on is the filter...the sunsun 304b is in the lead right now as I like the options for media. I don't believe the HOB filters have anything other than carbon...do they?


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## james1983

The aquaclears have a sponge then the bag of ceramic rings or whatever media you use. I have plastic pot scrubbers in all of mine.


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## DJRansome

Agree the aqua clear HOBs have sponges and media just like a canister. The other HOBs have cartridges for media but they eventually wear out and have to be changed...unlike the aqua clears.


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## Scooby1974

What would be the prevailing thought between the Aqua Clear HOB or sunsun? They run in the same $$$ ballpark.


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## Scooby1974

My tank. As you guys look at it, will cichlids enjoy this as a home or should I consider a different rock configuration? I'm wondering about taking out some of this rock and having my parents bring me some flat stones that I could stack on an end to create more nooks and crannies for them to live in.


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## Scooby1974

First Nitrate test...Thoughts?


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## Scooby1974

I didn't put ANY Ammonia in the tank to begin a cycle, this was the test I just did after cleaning the tank and filter out, flushing and vacuuming, flushing again, and refilling the tank with tap water.


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## DJRansome

20ppm


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## Scooby1974

1. What do you think of the rocks? Will cichlids find a home there?

2. Is the tank "cycling", or do I need to test for Ammonia to figure that out? I didn't really expect to see any measurement of N at all yet as I didn't put any ammonia in the tank. What is going on?


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## DJRansome

I would test for ammonia and nitrite. If they are zero I would add 4ppm ammonia and see if it disappears in 24 hours.


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## Scooby1974

Thank you, DJRansome. The Nitrite test was 20, however I am waiting for the Ammonia test to show up from Amazon...hopefully today. I guess I have to let her sit and wait.

I'm a little concerned with my rocks, not sure I have enough hiding places for the fish. I could stack the white ones together and go higher, move the others around and add a stack of flat field stone if that would help??


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## james1983

Instead of each rock free standing, tip them over to lean on each other to create caves and hiding spots.


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## Scooby1974

Given that they are different rocks, would they look right? I adjusted things before you commented, James. What do you think?


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## DJRansome

Have you decided on fish? Different fish could want different rocks.


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## Scooby1974

No, not knowing for sure how my PH will fall out, I'm still holding out on what kind of fish........with this setup, and say a PH in the 8-8.2 range...what would you all suggest?


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## Scooby1974

What is the best way to find out what fish fit best with which rocks?


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## DJRansome

You choose the fish and research them. I could see Haps, Peacocks or Tanganyikans with the rock you have now. pH is good too..what is your KH?


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## Scooby1974

It took 11 drops of KH to go from blue to yellow.

I can go find other rocks if need be.


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## DJRansome

Seems like you don't like the idea of haps, peacocks or Tanganyikans. What species would you like?


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## Scooby1974

I am open to anything. I love the look of that blue cichlid in your profile pick. Love those bright yellow with the black tipped fins. I need to look fish up and do some homework is all.


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## DJRansome

That one (Pseudotropheus [now Chindongo] demasoni) is not for a beginner...but there are other mbuna that look like him that are easier to keep. The yellow fish with black dorsal you see is Labidochromis caeruleus common name yellow lab. If you want Malawi mbuna mixed gender tank then you want 3X more rock...some say fill the tank completely to the waterline with rocks.

A nice stocking of Malawi mbuna for a 55G might be:
1m:4f Labidochromis caeruleus Nkhata Bay (white labs, black dorsal)
3m:9f Pseudotropheus (now Chindongo) saulosi (blue barred males similar to my avatar, yellow/orange females)

You would pick the white lab for this tank and not the yellow one because you already have the yellow female saulosi.


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## ha77

Scooby1974 said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like 8X to 10X but I would not exceed 10X. So between 450 and 550 would be good.
> 
> Suggestions for an affordable filter?
Click to expand...

Theres is some cheaper reliable options..what is your definition of affordable though?


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## Scooby1974

DJRansome said:


> That one (Pseudotropheus [now Chindongo] demasoni) is not for a beginner...but there are other mbuna that look like him that are easier to keep. The yellow fish with black dorsal you see is Labidochromis caeruleus common name yellow lab. If you want Malawi mbuna mixed gender tank then you want 3X more rock...some say fill the tank completely to the waterline with rocks.
> 
> A nice stocking of Malawi mbuna for a 55G might be:
> 1m:4f Labidochromis caeruleus Nkhata Bay (white labs, black dorsal)
> 3m:9f Pseudotropheus (now Chindongo) saulosi (blue barred males similar to my avatar, yellow/orange females)
> 
> You would pick the white lab for this tank and not the yellow one because you already have the yellow female saulosi.


I can go digging for rocks to add. I'm guessing maybe I would pull out all my existing rocks and replace with flagstone/creek type flat rocks? Just fill the sucker up by stacking them all together?


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## DJRansome

No I actually don't like the flat rocks/slate at all. I'd just get more of the same. I can usually get 1/3 to 1/2 the height of the tank and mostly fill up the floor. It's always helpful if you make more than one pile so if you have to net fish you can insert a divider and have to remove only the rocks on one side.


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## Scooby1974

I do like my rocks. I found them on Craigs list years ago, perhaps there are more floating around out there.

I'm going to do a round of tests tonight as my Ammonia test came from Amazon. :dancing:


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## Scooby1974

Can you guys help me figure out what is going on here with my water cycle?


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## DJRansome

You have ammonia. I would do a fishless cycle. Maybe it will be quick because you do have some nitrates, but the beneficial bacteria are not able to process the ammonia so you need to grow more.

What is your nitrite reading?


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## Pdxmonkeyboy

Scooby1974 said:


> What would be the prevailing thought between the Aqua Clear HOB or sunsun? They run in the same $$$ ballpark.


the sun sun will blow the doors off on aquaclear.

I'm not a fan of HOB filters. They are noisy and have little to know space for filter floss and media.

I meant to mention... you can also use lava rock as media .. it is super cheap at home depot. In regards to carbon.. many..not all... but many people don't run carbon. Completing your water changes will perform many of the functions that activated carbon will.


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## Scooby1974

DJRansome said:


> You have ammonia. I would do a fishless cycle. Maybe it will be quick because you do have some nitrates, but the beneficial bacteria are not able to process the ammonia so you need to grow more.
> 
> What is your nitrite reading?


1. I am planning to do a "fishless cycle", and actually wondered if it had already begun?

2. Do I need ANOTHER test kit for testing nitrites? Or can I determine that with the same test kit?


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## Scooby1974

Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> Scooby1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What would be the prevailing thought between the Aqua Clear HOB or sunsun? They run in the same $$$ ballpark.
> 
> 
> 
> the sun sun will blow the doors off on aquaclear.
> 
> I'm not a fan of HOB filters. They are noisy and have little to know space for filter floss and media.
> 
> I meant to mention... you can also use lava rock as media .. it is super cheap at home depot. In regards to carbon.. many..not all... but many people don't run carbon. Completing your water changes will perform many of the functions that activated carbon will.
Click to expand...

Thank you, Pdxmonkeyboy. I GREATLY appreciate all the wisdom you guys are throwing my way. I'm learning, so please feel free to pass along the tricks of the trade here...I want to severely decrease the chances of fish going belly up. I will add "lava rock" to my Home Depot shopping list right now.


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## Deeda

There are separate test kits for each parameter you want to check so you already have the ammonia and nitrate and need the nitrite and pH if you don't have them.


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## Scooby1974

Deeda said:


> There are separate test kits for each parameter you want to check so you already have the ammonia and nitrate and need the nitrite and pH if you don't have them.


Ok, darn...guess I need to buy a 5th test kit... Are there any government subsidies available for all this junk? I just want a fish tank with live fish in it.


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## Deeda

Nope, no gov't subsidies!

When I started keeping fish, I bought the API Master Test kit which had all the basic necessary testers in 1 kit but as I used the reagents up, just bought the individual ones as needed. I also bought the separate GH (hardness) and KH (alkalinity) testers separate since they aren't included in the Master kit.


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## ha77

Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> Scooby1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What would be the prevailing thought between the Aqua Clear HOB or sunsun? They run in the same $$$ ballpark.
> 
> 
> 
> the sun sun will blow the doors off on aquaclear.
> I'm not a fan of HOB filters. They are noisy and have little to know space for filter floss and media.
Click to expand...

Agree %100. One of those instances when the cheaper product actually holds up in comparison to the more expensive models (In my opinion of course


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## Scooby1974

DJRansome said:


> You have ammonia. I would do a fishless cycle. Maybe it will be quick because you do have some nitrates, but the beneficial bacteria are not able to process the ammonia so you need to grow more.
> 
> What is your nitrite reading?


Do I need to sit tight until I get a "Nitrite kit/reading" or are there steps I can take now to move forward?


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## ha77

Scooby1974 said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have ammonia. I would do a fishless cycle. Maybe it will be quick because you do have some nitrates, but the beneficial bacteria are not able to process the ammonia so you need to grow more.
> 
> What is your nitrite reading?
> 
> 
> 
> Do I need to sit tight until I get a "Nitrite kit/reading" or are there steps I can take now to move forward?
Click to expand...

You could grab some good bacteria from a filter of an already cycled tank if that hasn't been mentioned? That might help speed things up by a day or two but like Ransome said you have nitrates already. Shouldn't be too much longer


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## Scooby1974

I don't have any other tanks or know anyone with a tank up and running anyway. So things ARE progressing then? I didn't add ammonia, so I'm not entirely sure what kicked things off...


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## Deeda

Did you end up using the existing sand from your saltwater setup?

I also saw you mentioned cleaning a canister filter so is that also from the saltwater setup?

Your ammonia test shows some color above 0PPM and the nitrate test shows either 10PPM or 20PPM so this could be due to reusing the sand and filter, if you did.

You also mentioned buying ammonium in one of your posts but not using it so some clarification of that product would be helpful.


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## Scooby1974

I DID use the sand, rocks, and filter. I flushed the sand out twice. Did nothing to the rocks. I did clean the filter out well, but put the carbon bag back into it...so I am guessing that there were some things in the sand bed (I was kinda hoping there would be) that could have helped jump start the "cycling". I did indeed purchase a bottle of ammonia, but I did NOT add any to the tank...I was waiting on you guys for some wisdom.


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## ha77

Yep! Sounds like you unintentionally seeded the tank! Which is awesome!


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## Deeda

OK, there was probably still some organics in those 3 items, especially the rocks if they are porous and that could be why you are seeing the nitrates.

It is unusual IMO to see both ammonia and nitrates in a newly set up tank though your setup is a bit different since you are reusing items from the old saltwater tank.

I don't remember if you've tested your tap water for both ammonia and nitrate so if you have, please post the results. You may have an ammonia reading IF your water supplier treats with chloramine as a disinfectant.


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## DJRansome

The critters in the sand may also be dying and rotting, thus the ammonia.

I am surprised by the nitrates...they are increasing right?

I would have thought the marine beneficial bacteria would have died off 100% and not produced any nitrate.

Did you do a 100% water change when you went from saline to fresh? That should have removed all nitrate giving you a nitrate=0 reading to start off with.


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## Scooby1974

I did a complete water change, but there was still a small amount of water I could not remove from the bottom of the tank. Maybe a gallon's worth? I did not bleach the sand because I was actually hoping there might be some bacteria/critters still in there even though the fish had been dead and gone for over a year. I bet there were fish remains in the sand.

I didn't test for nitrates after going with fresh water as I did not have a test kit. I tested for Nitrates last week and the nitrates SEEM to still be in the 20 range...I thought they were around that range last week too....is it possible to be leveled out with Nitrates? Should they be rising with the presence of Ammonia?


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## ha77

Scooby1974 said:


> ....is it possible to be leveled out with Nitrates? Should they be rising with the presence of Ammonia?


My understanding is
1. Nitrites rise and eliminate the harmful ammonia. 
2. Nitrates should sky rocket to take care of the harmful nitrites. 
3. Once this whole process happens in a 24 hour period then you know the tank is properly cycled.

Nitrates will never stay "level" for more than a couple days in a cycled tank unless your fish don't poop.:thumb: 
If DJRANSOME or any of the mods come back with more advice just do what they suggest. They know whats up!


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## DJRansome

Well IDK. Nitrates don't go away without removing water and replacing it with nitrate-free water. Maybe you are not really cycled, but just have leftover nitrates.

Maybe now do 100% water change and test nitrates?


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## ha77

Lol this is bugging me. I am interested in seeing what the nitrites end up being!


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## Pdxmonkeyboy

Scooby1974 said:


> Deeda said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are separate test kits for each parameter you want to check so you already have the ammonia and nitrate and need the nitrite and pH if you don't have them.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, darn...guess I need to buy a 5th test kit... Are there any government subsidies available for all this junk? I just want a fish tank with live fish in it.
Click to expand...

hahahhahahahahahahah. wait until you order 10 mature African cichlids in the mail. Suddenly $10 on a test kit seems great


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## Scooby1974

DJRansome said:


> Well IDK. Nitrates don't go away without removing water and replacing it with nitrate-free water. Maybe you are not really cycled, but just have leftover nitrates.
> 
> Maybe now do 100% water change and test nitrates?


I will do a water change tomorrow, test, and let you guys know. Thanks for joining up to help solve my "mystery".


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## Scooby1974

Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> Scooby1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deeda said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are separate test kits for each parameter you want to check so you already have the ammonia and nitrate and need the nitrite and pH if you don't have them.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, darn...guess I need to buy a 5th test kit... Are there any government subsidies available for all this junk? I just want a fish tank with live fish in it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> hahahhahahahahahahah. wait until you order 10 mature African cichlids in the mail. Suddenly $10 on a test kit seems great
Click to expand...

I'm thinking I better go with the youngins' for this reason. .....but FISH are more fun than tests, so there's that too.


----------



## Scooby1974

Just ordered a Sunsun 403b filter to add to my Fluval 303 (220 gh) canister...so I should be in the 800 gph through filtration + powerhead (500 gph) = the water will be mooooooving in my 55 gallon tank.


----------



## ha77

Scooby1974 said:


> Just ordered a Sunsun 403b filter to add to my Fluval 303 (220 gh) canister...so I should be in the 800 gph through filtration + powerhead (500 gph) = the water will be mooooooving in my 55 gallon tank.


 I basically have the same setup on one of my 55gs except its a Fluval 206. I was even considering moving the Fluval to another tank because the SunSun does well enough without it. I turn off the circulation pump at night as well.


----------



## Scooby1974

These are the results for my TAPWATER.


What do you make of this?! opcorn:


----------



## DJRansome

You are drinking poison.


----------



## Scooby1974

How is that even possible?


----------



## DJRansome

I would call the water authority and see what is going on. US regulations are usually pretty strict. I have seen some in US with nitrates that are near farming areas. But you may be the first in the US with ammonia.


----------



## Scooby1974

Retested my tap water...not sure what I did wrong before.


----------



## wryan

Scooby1974 said:


> These are the results for my TAPWATER. ...
> 
> What do you make of this?! opcorn:


Rumor has it:

_"The API kit measures *total ammonia*, that is, both *NH3* and *NH4*. What you're seeing may in fact be NH4 (*non-toxic*). Plants and fertilisers can also affect the reading."_

I saw it on the internet ... so it must be true ... 

BTW - if you Google the sentence that is enclosed in quotes above (including the quote marks as well), Google should give you a link to the place I found it.


----------



## Scooby1974

I can barely read what you typed, wryan....everything going blackkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk


----------



## wryan

LOL ...

BTW - is 18964 your zip code ?


----------



## Scooby1974

wryan said:


> BTW - is 18964 your zip code ?


Yes, Sir. Telford.


----------



## wryan

You on a well ... or do get your water from a government entity?


----------



## DJRansome

My ammonia and nitrate and phosphate from the tap is zero on a private well.

A relative in PA also has trouble with nitrates in the drinking water.


----------



## wryan

Scooby1974 said:


> wryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW - is 18964 your zip code ?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Sir. Telford.
Click to expand...

Go to northpennwater.org ... you can probably find some reports there from their periodic testing that details what all is in your water.


----------



## ha77

DJRansome said:


> You are drinking poison.


I'm dying :lol: :lol: This thread gets more interesting every day!!


----------



## Scooby1974

So where do I go from here? Should I start a "fishless cycle" by adding ammonia and see what happens?


----------



## Scooby1974

ha77 said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are drinking poison.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm dying :lol: :lol: This thread gets more interesting every day!!
Click to expand...

Don't encourage him ha77! .....I just barely pulled through the night.


----------



## DJRansome

What is the nitrite test result?


----------



## Scooby1974

This is after my 98% water change yesterday. 

Time to add ammonia and see what happens?


----------



## DJRansome

That's nitrate. What is your nitrite reading?

The problem is you have the same amount of nitrate in your tap water. So it is not the beneficial bacteria producing it. It's already there when you add the tap water.

We need evidence that the beneficial bacteria are producing nitrate so we need the ammonia and nitrite to go to zero and the nitrate to increase week-to-week.


----------



## Scooby1974

I gotcha...still waiting for that test kit to show up from Amazon.


----------



## DJRansome

I'd still check with the water authority on that drinking water, LOL.


----------



## Scooby1974

DJRansome said:


> I'd still check with the water authority on that drinking water, LOL.


The second test was "0" for ammonia...I must have goofed the test up somehow. I'd be far more concerned if I was on my own well rather than municiple water. I can't fart without my retired neighbors with nothing to do raising a stink about something...if our water was jacked up, SOMEONE would have told me by now.


----------



## Scooby1974

Here is the last water test posted. http://northpennwater.org/uploads/wqr-main-web-2015.pdf


----------



## DJRansome

The second test was 0.25 for ammonia. You want a pure yellow color...no tinge of green.


----------



## ha77

Yea lay off the tap water man! It's messing with your brain!!
Haha anyways how are you cleaning the test tubes out? I would try and find another source of water to do that. Your tap water might cause problems when testing the cycling tank water?


----------



## Scooby1974

NitrITE test came...

What is my next step?


----------



## ha77

Scooby1974 said:


> NitrITE test came...
> 
> What is my next step?


What are we working with for ammonia and nitrate today??


----------



## Scooby1974

Ammonia and Nitrate results...


----------



## ha77

Scooby1974 said:


> Ammonia and Nitrate results...


Uhhh... I'd say if that little bit of ammonia wasn't there do a big water change and you might be cycled? Let's wait to hear what Mr DJ has to say about this!


----------



## Scooby1974

I did just do a water change yesterday. Waiting for instructions.


----------



## ha77

Scooby1974 said:


> I did just do a water change yesterday. Waiting for instructions.


Yea with zero nitrite you shouldn't have any ammonia.
(Unless I am color blind and that might actually be zero ammonia?)


----------



## Scooby1974

ha77 said:


> Scooby1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did just do a water change yesterday. Waiting for instructions.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea with zero nitrite you shouldn't have any ammonia.
> (Unless I am color blind and that might actually be zero ammonia?)
Click to expand...

I don't know, it's the same color as comes out of the tap as far as I can see. This is frustrating to me...


----------



## wryan

Scooby1974 said:


> I did just do a water change yesterday. Waiting for instructions.


Are you treating your tap water as you add it for chlorine and chloramine ?

If not, that could be the reason for what you are seeing as Deeda mentioned previously.


----------



## DJRansome

I would add ammonia and see if the nitrates increase.

The problem with just assuming it is cycled is that the tap water has just as much nitrates as the tank...so no confirmation that beneficial bacteria are producing nitrates.

The nitrates are going to be a problem with water changes ongoing.


----------



## Scooby1974

wryan said:


> Scooby1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did just do a water change yesterday. Waiting for instructions.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you treating your tap water as you add it for chlorine and chloramine ?
> 
> If not, that could be the reason for what you are seeing as Deeda mentioned previously.
Click to expand...

I have not treated my tap water with anything, no. What should I get to treat it with? I will look back to see what Deeda suggested again.


----------



## Scooby1974

DJRansome said:


> I would add ammonia and see if the nitrates increase.
> 
> The problem with just assuming it is cycled is that the tap water has just as much nitrates as the tank...so no confirmation that beneficial bacteria are producing nitrates.
> 
> The nitrates are going to be a problem with water changes ongoing.


I would rather not ASSUME anything if at all possible.

I do use salt designed to take rust out of our water (Home Depot) in our water softener...could this affect Nitrates?


----------



## Pdxmonkeyboy

If you have well water then you probably don't have to treat your water before putting it in the tank. Municipal water has chlorine or chloramine in it that must be neutralized as it is harmful to fish. The most popular additive is called Prime.

Anyways, since you are on well water.. there are LOTS and lots of unknowns in your water. I worked on a project several years ago where a small town was drinking cyanide laced well water (leaching out from basalt in the aquifer). Funny thing was, they didn't want to pay $40 a month for city water... ummm, you are drinking 10x the "safe" amount of rat posion!!

Anyways, if you are serious about your health and your fish health, I would do two things. 
1. contact your local municipality or agricultural extension office to find out about a water test. They are free or low cost and will tell you everything you need to know about your water. 
2. Armed with that information I would navigate over to http://www.thefilterguys.biz look up their contact info and call then about what filtration you will need. Those guys are SUPER helpful, are extremely knowledgeable and are not there to rip you off.

After several attempts to strip chloramine (and the resulting ammonia) from my water system with cheap ebay **** I called those guys and they hooked me up!!

FYI.. water softners are typically a no no on aquarium water. I can't remember the exact chemistry behind it but I do recall elevated nitrates and certain mineral levels.


----------



## wryan

Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> If you have well water then you probably don't have to treat your water before putting it in the tank. Municipal water has chlorine or chloramine in it that must be neutralized as it is harmful to fish. The most popular additive is called Prime.


De Chlor was another old one that was commonly carried at most pet stores that handled fish.

Still have a bottle around here from 30 years ago, use it on the Magnum Micron carts after I soak them in bleach to clean them.

One drop per gallon for chlorine and two drops per gallon for chloramine.



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> Anyways, since you are on well water.. there are LOTS and lots of unknowns in your water. I worked on a project several years ago where a small town was drinking cyanide laced well water (leaching out from basalt in the aquifer). Funny thing was, they didn't want to pay $40 a month for city water... ummm, you are drinking 10x the "safe" amount of rat posion!!


City water isn't always a solution one should just blindly trust ... as the people of Flint, MI (among many others) can now attest to.

Having said that, being aware of contaminants in one's water and not doing anything about it is just stupid.



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> Anyways, if you are serious about your health and your fish health, I would do two things.
> 1. contact your local municipality or agricultural extension office to find out about a water test. They are free or low cost and will tell you everything you need to know about your water.


Very good advice ... :thumb:



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> FYI.. water softners are typically a no no on aquarium water. I can't remember the exact chemistry behind it but I do recall elevated nitrates and certain mineral levels.


We have softened water here at our home.

While I don't dispute that perhaps some softening process that might be out there could increase nitrates, our (softened) water typically tests zero for ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates.

As far as minerals go, the softening process typically removes a lot of them ... in the process typically exchanging a very small amount of either sodium chloride (main ingredient in table salt) or potassium chloride (a salt substitute for people with heart problems) for the aforementioned minerals.


----------



## Scooby1974

Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> If you have well water then you probably don't have to treat your water before putting it in the tank. Municipal water has chlorine or chloramine in it that must be neutralized as it is harmful to fish. The most popular additive is called Prime.
> 
> Anyways, since you are on well water.. there are LOTS and lots of unknowns in your water. I worked on a project several years ago where a small town was drinking cyanide laced well water (leaching out from basalt in the aquifer). Funny thing was, they didn't want to pay $40 a month for city water... ummm, you are drinking 10x the "safe" amount of rat posion!!
> 
> Anyways, if you are serious about your health and your fish health, I would do two things.
> 1. contact your local municipality or agricultural extension office to find out about a water test. They are free or low cost and will tell you everything you need to know about your water.
> 2. Armed with that information I would navigate over to http://www.thefilterguys.biz look up their contact info and call then about what filtration you will need. Those guys are SUPER helpful, are extremely knowledgeable and are not there to rip you off.
> 
> After several attempts to strip chloramine (and the resulting ammonia) from my water system with cheap ebay #%$& I called those guys and they hooked me up!!
> 
> FYI.. water softners are typically a no no on aquarium water. I can't remember the exact chemistry behind it but I do recall elevated nitrates and certain mineral levels.


Thanks, PDX,

1. I am on municiple water---so I am going to need to treat my water most likely. 
2. I will contact my water provider about a current water test.


----------



## DJRansome

wryan is right. Ion systems remove calcium and magnesium and add sodium chloride.

As fishkeepers we want to add calcium and magnesium and don't need any sodium chloride.

I'm not sure how/if it would impact the cycle.


----------



## ha77

My brain hurts. Good luck Scooby!


----------



## Scooby1974

Seriously man, the owner of the LFS told me to set the tank up, wait a couple days, and just come in and get some fish....a month later I own every water test known to man, just tossed a tsp of ammonia in my tank, and I'm staring down another month or so to "cycle water".


----------



## Scooby1974

Here is a pick of last night's Ammonia test this evening...not sure if it means anything or not. 

Here is tonight's Ammonia test after adding 2 Teaspoons of Ammonia.


----------



## ha77

All I can suggest is leave it for a couple days and then test nitrites. I'm just happy I have somewhat suitable tap water at this point!


----------



## wryan

Bottom photo looks like about 2 ppm or better to me.

Let's see what it is in 24 ...


----------



## Scooby1974

I'm assuming that I want to see some Nitrites this evening when I test my water?


----------



## Deeda

Yes please!!!


----------



## ha77

Scooby1974 said:


> I'm assuming that I want to see some Nitrites this evening when I test my water?


Yes sir!


----------



## Scooby1974

Looky looky what I found! 

Now what?


----------



## Scooby1974

I'm still trying to nail this down, but i suspect I have the additive "Chloramine" in my water which is testing false positive for Ammonia. I hope to confirm this tomorrow.


----------



## DJRansome

So nitrates should rise over the next 2 weeks, then decline. Maybe another week or two for the decline. All the while ammonia=0 and nitrates increase.

Keep adding ammonia as specified in the CF articles about fishless cycling.


----------



## Scooby1974

DJRansome said:


> So nitrates should rise over the next 2 weeks, then decline. Maybe another week or two for the decline. All the while ammonia=0 and nitrates increase.
> 
> Keep adding ammonia as specified in the CF articles about fishless cycling.


Will do. I'm on my way now.


----------



## Scooby1974

Going up anyone?


----------



## wryan

Won't be long now ...


----------



## Scooby1974

Is the next step to wait for ammonia to drop to "zero" and add the same dose of ammonia that I started with?


----------



## DJRansome

You have to read the article...it goes step by step what to do.


----------



## Scooby1974

I have been reading the article. I'm a bit confused by the high Nitrite spike. I expected that to be further along in the process.


----------



## ha77

Scooby1974 said:


> I have been reading the article. I'm a bit confused by the high Nitrite spike. I expected that to be further along in the process.


Nitrites wait for no man!! :lol: This is where you are at in the process it seems. Getting close! :thumb:

• Test for nitrite, perform water change, and then add ammonia.
• Next day; test for nitrite, perform water change.
• Next day; test for nitrite, perform water change, and then add ammonia.
• Next day; test for nitrite, perform water change.
• Next day; test for nitrite, perform water change, and then add ammonia.

The daily tests of nitrite will let you know the effect of the water changes on the nitrite level. You are looking for a zero reading, of course, but that can take a while. Only test for nitrite once per day, about the same time each day. Again, do not test any longer for ammonia. We can assume it will be zero each day now. Make an effort to keep nitrite down below 5ppm by way of small, partial water changes. The ammonia additions will ultimately raise the nitrite level while the water changes will drop it back down. Do not over analyze the test results. You are just looking to see if the water changes that you are performing are adequately keeping nitrite down. You are ultimately looking for a nitrite reading of zero.


----------



## Scooby1974

Sweet! I'll do a water change ASAP and add more Ammonia.

Thanks for the confirmation.


----------



## wryan

Here's a little more data on one thing - lack of phosphates - that can slow down the multiplication of the nitrite-consuming bacteria:

Nitrifying Bacteria Facts

I've posted this link before on another thread wrt fishless cycling ... and I've used the addition of phosphoric acid when I cycled my 55G ... and IIRC, that tank fully cycled in about three weeks or so ... although I may have added some bio-media (gravel) that helped it along (can't recall offhand)

There's also some data in there about how chlorine or chloramine will *kill off* said bacteria ... so you might want to factor that in with how you are treating water that you are adding to the tank during pwc's ... so that you aren't engaging in self-defeating actions.


----------



## Pdxmonkeyboy

I suspect this dude can't follow simple directions. "contact your municipality and find out about your water".

"I think I have chloramines" you think or you know? 
A. chloramines will not show up on an amonia test.. or nitrite or nitrate tests for that matter. 
B. Chloramine will kill your fish though... cycled tank or not.


----------



## Scooby1974

Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> I suspect this dude can't follow simple directions. "contact your municipality and find out about your water".
> 
> "I think I have chloramines" you think or you know?
> A. chloramines will not show up on an amonia test.. or nitrite or nitrate tests for that matter.
> B. Chloramine will kill your fish though... cycled tank or not.


I suspect you are making assumptions, you know how that works out. I contacted but am waiting on my municipality to get back to me.


----------



## Scooby1974

Sunsun is pumping away with lava rock, 100% polyester stuffing, and ceramic tubes.

I bought PRIME and will get a water change and Ammonia dose done tonight.

Thanks for the help everyone.


----------



## Scooby1974

From the burough's water authority..."Telford does not use chloramine. We use gaseous chlorine at minimum levels."


----------



## Scooby1974

Ammonia test


----------



## ha77

There yea go :dancing:


----------



## wryan

Lookin' good ... :thumb:


----------



## Pdxmonkeyboy

Seems like your good to go now. Make sure to use the prime whenever adding new water. What fish are you going to add?


----------



## Scooby1974

Hey guys, quick update...have done water changes the past 3 days and tested for Nitritrites.....After Ammonia doses on day 1 and 3, Nitrites bumping up...water changes bringing them back down. I think we are making progress.

As for fish, I need to run back through this thread and look for the suggestions that you guys tossed out there. I'm open to suggestions you guys have for a 55 gal. Where do you all buy your fish? I am thinking of getting young ones to keep costs down.

Thank to everyone for their wisdom, feeling more confident here with coaching with the test kits, sun sun, prime, lave rocks, poly, etc.....


----------



## DutchAJ

Nice progress Scooby. I'm at a similar spot in starting a 75 and am going with Saulosi, yellowtail acei, and rusties. If I was doing a 55 I think I would've skipped the acei and gone with the other 2. I really like the look of both the Saulosi male and females. Saulosi and rusties also sound like some of the best for mbuna beginners in my research.

Good luck!


----------



## Scooby1974

DJRansome said:


> That one (Pseudotropheus [now Chindongo] demasoni) is not for a beginner...but there are other mbuna that look like him that are easier to keep. The yellow fish with black dorsal you see is Labidochromis caeruleus common name yellow lab. If you want Malawi mbuna mixed gender tank then you want 3X more rock...some say fill the tank completely to the waterline with rocks.
> 
> A nice stocking of Malawi mbuna for a 55G might be:
> 1m:4f Labidochromis caeruleus Nkhata Bay (white labs, black dorsal)
> 3m:9f Pseudotropheus (now Chindongo) saulosi (blue barred males similar to my avatar, yellow/orange females)
> 
> You would pick the white lab for this tank and not the yellow one because you already have the yellow female saulosi.


I like the plan DJ threw out here...The tank is coming along but I have not been able to find more rock to add to what I have. I just can't pony up hundreds more dollars at this point...could I do something like add big round river rock perhaps?


----------



## ha77

Scooby1974 said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> 
> That one (Pseudotropheus [now Chindongo] demasoni) is not for a beginner...but there are other mbuna that look like him that are easier to keep. The yellow fish with black dorsal you see is Labidochromis caeruleus common name yellow lab. If you want Malawi mbuna mixed gender tank then you want 3X more rock...some say fill the tank completely to the waterline with rocks.
> 
> A nice stocking of Malawi mbuna for a 55G might be:
> 1m:4f Labidochromis caeruleus Nkhata Bay (white labs, black dorsal)
> 3m:9f Pseudotropheus (now Chindongo) saulosi (blue barred males similar to my avatar, yellow/orange females)
> 
> You would pick the white lab for this tank and not the yellow one because you already have the yellow female saulosi.
> 
> 
> 
> I like the plan DJ threw out here...The tank is coming along but I have not been able to find more rock to add to what I have. I just can't pony up hundreds more dollars at this point...could I do something like add big round river rock perhaps?
Click to expand...

Man just literally keep your eyes open. I spent 50 bucks at my local landscaping place. Right after i realized my best friends place is surrounded by a rock garden containing the exact stone I just bought.


----------



## wryan

$30 at my local landscaping supply got me a little over 80 lbs of lava rock ... about a dozen or so large pieces - almost all of them big enough that they would need to be broken up to fit in a 55G without spanning the width of the tank.

Of course, the rock pile over by barn would have been essentially free ... but I would have had to dig them out and round them up, clean them, and test to make sure that they weren't potentially toxic to fish. In this weather, that ain''t happening ... :lol:


----------



## Scooby1974

Didn't think about lava rock chunks at local landscape place. I know at least one of ours is closed down for winter but I will start hunting. I don't want to get arrested taking rocks from rock gardens though. Haha


----------



## ha77

Scooby1974 said:


> Didn't think about lava rock chunks at local landscape place. I know at least one of ours is closed down for winter but I will start hunting. I don't want to get arrested taking rocks from rock gardens though. Haha


That's only if you get caught my friend! My grandma hasn't noticed the missing limestone from under her porch! :lol: Sorry Grams!


----------



## Scooby1974

ha77 said:


> Scooby1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't think about lava rock chunks at local landscape place. I know at least one of ours is closed down for winter but I will start hunting. I don't want to get arrested taking rocks from rock gardens though. Haha
> 
> 
> 
> That's only if you get caught my friend! My grandma hasn't noticed the missing limestone from under her porch! :lol: Sorry Grams!
Click to expand...

There always seems to be SOMEBODY taking advantage of the elderly. I'm going to give her a call and alert the "neighborhood watch".


----------



## Scooby1974

Nitrites were down to .25 range last night before the water change. Changed out water and did another does of ammonia. tick tock tick tock....

Still hunting for lava rock to buy, but coming up short though.


----------



## Scooby1974

Question: Are nitrites in the .25 range a good thing at this point?


----------



## Scooby1974

Nevermind, they are back up after the Ammonia dose.


----------



## ha77

Scooby1974 said:


> Nevermind, they are back up after the Ammonia dose.


 Good stuff Scooby! :thumb:


----------



## Scooby1974

It is a slow grind. After another 50% or so water change tonight I'm in the 1-2 range with Nitrites.


----------



## Scooby1974

Hey guys, I've been looking at fish this morning and I am sold on the Saulosi...they seem like a good fit. I am waivering between 
Rusties and the white labs that DJ suggested. The reasoning is that I like the different color on the Rusties better. However, I have a painted black tank that the white labs would really "pop" in. I also like the Acei.

Could I do a mix of the Saulosi, white labs, Acei, and Rusties or am I just asking for trouble?

What would be a good number and male/female mix of these fish for a 55g?

Where do you guys buy your fish? I am near Philly if it matters.


----------



## DJRansome

Acei are too big for a 55G so that decision is easy. Also 4 species are too many. With 3 species you can have only 1 saulosi male (the blue barred fish.)

Saulosi and rusties would be nice. With 2 species you can have 3m:9f of the saulosi to get more of the blue barred males.


----------



## ha77

I called every store within an hours drive until I found a guy who has 80 tanks of just Mbuna. Needless to say i made him my best friend real quick! I would recommend doing the same if possible lol


----------



## Scooby1974

DJ,

I don't know how you know all this stuff but I sure am grateful that you do. If I do the Saulosi (3m:9f) then how many Rusties (ratio m:f?) or White Labs (m:f?) would you suggest?

I could go either way on the Rusties -vs- White labs...The rusties look to have all sorts of colors to them, but I'm sure that depends upon the individual fish (and the luck of the draw as to which one gets scooped up and sent)? I don't want to end up with "boring brown" fish...in that case I'd rather go with the White labs.

Our LFS doesn't really have a very good selection of cichlids. If I buy online, who are your favorite people/dealers to buy from?


----------



## DJRansome

For feedback on vendors, check the Reviews section or PM a Member to ask for a private recommendation.

1m:4f whether you go rusties or labs. Usually you buy juveniles which may be pretty colorless...better to buy excellent quality fish and they will turn out looking just like they should. I've never kept rusties...but females may not be quite as colorful as the male. Whereas with white labs, males and females look the same.


----------



## Scooby1974

Went to move a tote and ended up finding a 2nd piece of holey rock and another piece of lava rock. Will this be a good enough setup for rusties and saulosi?


----------



## DJRansome

I'd move the rocks closer together.


----------



## Scooby1974

Ok, I'll do that tomorrow. Thanks.


----------



## ha77

I like that stand Scooby. You know what kind it is?


----------



## Scooby1974

I actually built the tank into our basement wall when we finished the room. I have full access behind it. I've been curious how you guys have these 200+ gallon tanks around the house as it seems like they would be cumbersome or dominate the room.


----------



## Scooby1974

Backside of my built in tank.


----------



## Scooby1974

Ohhhhh fellas.....looky looky!


----------



## Scooby1974

Does this mean I am ready for FISH?!!?!?!

I keep refreshing to see if someone comments...


----------



## DJRansome

What about the ammonia? How long have your test results been zero?


----------



## Scooby1974

I tested Nitrites the night before last and they came up around 2.0 I did NOT do a water exchange. I tested again last night and it was at 0.

This is the ammonia test.


----------



## Scooby1974

Bueller?


----------



## ha77

Scooby1974 said:


> Bueller?


Haha took the day off man. You should finally be cycled if the whole process is converting everything in less than 24 hours. Test those nitrates to be sure. Water change and time to start thinking about adding some fish :thumb:


----------



## DJRansome

Your ammonia looks half yellow and half green. Since that is not possible, maybe it is the pic?


----------



## Scooby1974

DJRansome said:


> Your ammonia looks half yellow and half green. Since that is not possible, maybe it is the pic?


I'm going to replace the soft white light over the tank and see if that will make a difference, it seems to discolor the older ammonia pics as well. I took this last one with the LED shining on it and I think it distorts it a bit too.

I did add another dose of ammonia last night to see what happens. Tested this morning and I'm in the 2 range. I'll test again tonight and will also test for ammonia again after I change out that light.

Thanks for your input and patience through this process. I really want to get this right before I spend $180+ on a load of fish.


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## ha77

Scooby1974 said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your ammonia looks half yellow and half green. Since that is not possible, maybe it is the pic?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to replace the soft white light over the tank and see if that will make a difference, it seems to discolor the older ammonia pics as well. I took this last one with the LED shining on it and I think it distorts it a bit too.
> 
> I did add another dose of ammonia last night to see what happens. Tested this morning and I'm in the 2 range. I'll test again tonight and will also test for ammonia again after I change out that light.
> 
> Thanks for your input and patience through this process. I really want to get this right before I spend $180+ on a load of fish.
Click to expand...

Smart move. Did you come to a conclusion on which fish you are going to stock?


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## Scooby1974

Test 1...24 hrs test 2...24 hrs test 3 then water change, 24 hours =0 ammonia


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## DJRansome

So it takes 3 days?


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## Scooby1974

Test 1...24 hrs test 2...24 hrs test 3 then water change, 24 hours =0 ammonia


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## Scooby1974

That seems to be the case, DJ. We've had some sickness here so I missed doing a water change the other day...had I changed it I think it would have been 2 days.


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## Scooby1974

Added a dose of 2.5 teaspoons of Ammonia last night. I just tested about 24 hours later and Nitrites are at 2.


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## DutchAJ

Scooby1974 said:


> Added a dose of 2.5 teaspoons of Ammonia last night. I just tested about 24 hours later and Nitrites are at 2.


What ppm does that dose take you up to? Just curious, my 75 went to 1.5 ppm with 3.5 mL.


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## Scooby1974

DutchAJ said:


> Scooby1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Added a dose of 2.5 teaspoons of Ammonia last night. I just tested about 24 hours later and Nitrites are at 2.
> 
> 
> 
> What ppm does that dose take you up to? Just curious, my 75 went to 1.5 ppm with 3.5 mL.
Click to expand...

1 teaspoon = 100 drops so I put 2.5 teaspoons = 250 drops of ammonia in my 55g. It took it from 0 ammonia to around 2

Does that make sense? I'm not sure I answered your question.


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## ha77

2.5 teaspoons = *12.25mL*


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## Scooby1974

ha77 said:


> 2.5 teaspoons = *12.25mL*


Am I doing this correctly? Is that too much to expect a 55g tank to convert in 24 hours?


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## ha77

I believe you need to get around 3ppm Ammonia. Basically you need to add ammonia until you reach 3ppm and record the amount it took to get 3ppm. Then use that amount of ammonia each time moving forward.


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## DutchAJ

For reference the 3.5 mL I used was ace brand (10%) in a 75 gallon. I was only shooting for 1.5-2 ppm b/c I saw old posts of Prov that Seemed to say that was enough.

I haven't had any ammonia or nitrite issues since stocking last week.


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## ha77

I cant lie..on my original cycle I just tossed random amounts of ammonia in until I started to see nitrite. :lol:


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## Scooby1974

I did the math and figured the 2.5 teaspoons should condition things nicely according to the fishless cycle thread. But here I am with it still taking 2+ days to get back to Zero.


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## DJRansome

What is your temp? Sometimes a little warmer makes the bacteria grow faster.


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## Scooby1974

DJRansome said:


> What is your temp? Sometimes a little warmer makes the bacteria grow faster.


85 degrees. I'm back to 0 now....takes about 2.5 days.

The doses of ammonia were bumping it up to 5. I'll add another 2.5 teaspoons and see where it takes me. Maybe I just need more?


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## DJRansome

Do you have ammonia in your tap water?


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## Scooby1974

Tap water looks like it tests with between 0-.25 on the ammonia scale.


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## Scooby1974

That being said, the town testing does not reveal any ammonia in their testing. I do not know what the discrepency is here...so frustrating. I believe it is a false reading but I don't know what is causing it.


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## DJRansome

Or maybe it is there and THAT is why it is taking your bacteria longer to process the amount you are adding.


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## Scooby1974

this whole thing is exasperating...anybody want to buy a fish tank?


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## Scooby1974

I added about double the Ammonia (4 tsp) 2 days ago and was back to 0 this morning. Had company this weekend so I didn't end up remembering to check daily. I think we are getting there, but I'm going to re-dose tonight with 5 tsp to see what happens.


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## Scooby1974

Our Borough came out and did a water test. No ammonia in our water.


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## ha77

Well thats good! Are you cycled finally?


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## Scooby1974

I think the length of this is on me. I added 5 tsp of Ammonia on Monday and was at 0ppg on Wednesday night. I added 6 tsp of Ammonia Wednesday night and plan to test this evening when I get home.

Crossing my fingers


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## Scooby1974

Just tested my water. After adding over 6 tsp of Ammonia last night to my 55 gal tank I am looking at about .25 ppm in color 24 hours later. The 6 tsp. Is quite a bit more than the Fishless Cycling called for.

What do you guys think? Am I ready for some stinkin fish?


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## DJRansome

Sounds like it to me.


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## ha77

:dancing: :fish: :dancing:


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## Scooby1974

I've been leaning toward getting 3m/9f saulosi and 1m/4f white labs but I'm seeing some mixed tanks in the Aquarium Gallery that catch my eye as well. I'm assuming that my odds of everyone getting along are much higher if I keep it to two different species but it is hard to not add some random others in there and cross my fingers. haha

FYI..I've been adding splashes of Ammonia to my tank and it has been back to 0 within 24 hours.


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## ha77

3 species is fine and 4 species is do able with the right ratios. The addiction becomes real once fish get added so i can see another tank being setup in your near future lol


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## Scooby1974

Ha77, Thats funny, but I can't afford an addiction. 

What ratios and fish would you guys suggest if I wanted to add another species or even two in my 55 gallon? I need to err on the side of less aggression for sure.


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## ha77

Scooby1974 said:


> Ha77, Thats funny, but I can't afford an addiction.
> 
> What ratios and fish would you guys suggest if I wanted to add another species or even two in my 55 gallon? I need to err on the side of less aggression for sure.


2 species 2m-6f
3 species 1m-4f
4 species 1m-3f

Add more females depending on aggression levels. Are you buying juvies or adults?


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## Scooby1974

ha77 said:


> Scooby1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ha77, Thats funny, but I can't afford an addiction.
> 
> What ratios and fish would you guys suggest if I wanted to add another species or even two in my 55 gallon? I need to err on the side of less aggression for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> 2 species 2m-6f
> 3 species 1m-4f
> 4 species 1m-3f
> 
> Add more females depending on aggression levels. Are you buying juvies or adults?
Click to expand...

1. I was thinking juvies to help keep prices down...

2. I have a black backed tank with white holy rock + lava rock so I'd like fish that will look good in that setting.

I definitely want some Saulosi (blue m/yellow f...but would like to get other color in there as well. Any suggestions for THREE OTHER SPECIES that will pair well with Saulosi's?


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## ha77

I like the white labs alot. I would go with them and one more species for 3 in total (much easier than 4). White,Yellow, Blue and ??? Purple would be the most common color to find with mbuna other than those previously mentioned. Orange as well but some people dont like the yellow/orange mix.


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## Scooby1974

I've found these that in another forum about what to pair with Saulosi 
Pseudotropheus saulosi Taiwanee Reef
Cynotilapia sp Hara Gallireya Reef ----a big more expensive.
Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos ----definitely like these

The other issue is that I don't see juvies in the kind of fish I want...so this ordering business and shipping could be tricky.


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## DJRansome

In order to remove vendor names, I had to change your jpg links to species names.

I would skip cyaneorhabdos for a 55G...they seem to do better in 48x18.

I would choose a fish that is not blue barred to go with the saulosi.

Those fish are all available as juveniles...except the hara and maybe you just need to wait a month or choose something else.

I have had trouble with 2 males and trios in the past so I like three species with 1m:4f of each. Depending on the species you choose of course.


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## Scooby1974

DJ,
I'm sorry about the links, I didn't think of that and will be sure not to do that again.

How many fish can my tank handle?

1. Saulosi---1m/4f (1 blue, 4 yellow)
2. White labs---1m/4f (5 white)
3.

I really like the male (blue) Saulosi's color so I'd like some more BLUE in the tank along with all the yellow and white. Any suggestions?


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## DJRansome

Do 3m:9f of the saulosi.

Or add 1m:4f Pseudotropheus socolofi for a solid light blue.


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## Walt

Scooby1974 said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like 8X to 10X but I would not exceed 10X. So between 450 and 550 would be good.
> 
> The GPH I got when I googled fluval 303 was 103 GPH.
> 
> 
> 
> 130...103...dyslexic or not those numbers are low either way.
> 
> Suggestions for an affordable filter?
> 
> Also, it looks like my tap water comes out around 8.2. That seems high, but I tested it myself straight from the tap and followed directions exactly.
Click to expand...

DIY overflow and sump.


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## Scooby1974

I bought a sunsun filter...all set


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## Walt

Are those the ones that need a pump?


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## Scooby1974

sunsun is a canister filter that runs about 400 gph. I don't have room for an overflow and sump.


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## Scooby1974

Ho-ly cow....just found out there is a LFS with 30 cichlid tanks so I ran down there with high hopes. I talked with a guy who flung latin fish names around like they were going out of style for about an hour. Turns out hes a grandfather in a band with a 24 year old witch girlfriend.....who later on I find out has a wife with cancer...the wife told him to look for someone to sleep with since she can't...the wife knows the girlfriend witch...he told me his life story and I finally left with my head spinning after finding out that they don't get many salousi fish in because they aren't very popular right now.

You can't make this stuff up, folks. I took 3 steps backwards today by going to my local fish store. haha


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## ha77

Scooby1974 said:


> Ho-ly cow....just found out there is a LFS with 30 cichlid tanks so I ran down there with high hopes. I talked with a guy who flung latin fish names around like they were going out of style for about an hour. Turns out hes a grandfather in a band with a 24 year old witch girlfriend.....who later on I find out has a wife with cancer...the wife told him to look for someone to sleep with since she can't...the wife knows the girlfriend witch...he told me his life story and I finally left with my head spinning after finding out that they don't get many salousi fish in because they aren't very popular right now.
> 
> You can't make this stuff up, folks. I took 3 steps backwards today by going to my local fish store. haha


Screw the fish ..I want to know more about this old dude with the witch girlfriend! :lol: I guess the guy didnt have any other species that caught your eye?


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## Scooby1974

there were some cool fish there...but it does not sound like I'll be getting what I wanted from him unless of course i change what I thought I wanted. sheesh....I tell ya......he was unbelievable with the latin names and talking along like I knew what the heck he was even talking about

I of course dropped all my "fishless cycle" knowledge on him and pretty much blew his MIND...actually, he didn't seem to know much about fishless cycling (which puts me exactly ONE half step ahead of him on that one)

DJRansome, this guy would have probably loved you.

So, if I Saulosi's I'm going to have to order them I guess...he had some pretty fish there though...some really deep blue barred Mumbai...that is my favorite color for sure. He had yellow labs, but no white ones. Any suggestions? I feel like I'm back to the proverbial drawing board again.


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## DJRansome

What are the blue barred ones he has? Don't feel bad about asking him to spell and writing.

There are blue barred fish that work in a 55G but females are drab so you only get one blue barred fish. But that one can be fabulous. Many of the Cynotilapia.


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## Scooby1974

DJRansome said:


> What are the blue barred ones he has? Don't feel bad about asking him to spell and writing.
> 
> There are blue barred fish that work in a 55G but females are drab so you only get one blue barred fish. But that one can be fabulous. Many of the Cynotilapia.


I woke up early and did some homework on the Cynotilapia.....they are BEAUTIFUL and I'm pretty sure the LFS had some BIGGER ones. I'm just not sure I want to go back down there. I thought maybe I should call down and talk to the owner and have him make sure his employee does about half as much talking and twice as much listening to the customer.

What about a mixture of:

1. a cynotilapia afra (cobue) or Hara or aurifrons Nkhata bay or "Lion"----could I just get a MALE and no female? Or does that jack them up?

2. Red Zebras (male are blue and female are orange?)

3. Yellow Labs

Would those 3 work together? If so, what ratio would be best?


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## DJRansome

1m:4f of each but don't mix red zebras and yellow labs...they crossbreed. The Cobue has the bright blue bars but drab females. The hara is light blue with a couple of narrow blue bars but females have a decent mid-blue color.

Many red zebras available in pet shops don't have the blue males...but if you order that specific collection point you can get them.

If you are going to have females in the tank, avoid lone males.


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## Scooby1974

I just want a colorful tank of cichlids...this is nuts


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## Scooby1974

I like Mainganos as well. Would they mix well with anything? It seems the females have some color.


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## DJRansome

Maingano are on the aggressive side...I would wait until you have a bigger tank (like 48x18) for those.

If you just want a colorful tank do yellow labs, rusties and Cynotilapia sp. hara. 1m:4f of each.


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## Scooby1974

The cyno sp. "Lion" lapingo male is very colorful and the female looks to be a solid blue.

What would pair well with them?


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## DJRansome

Any of the fish we have been recommending. Rusties. White or yellow labs.

I don't believe the females are as colorful as hara females however.


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## Scooby1974

If I ordered online and could get Saulosi...would they mix with "Hara" or "Lions" and one of the labs?

So a tank of Saulosi, Hara and labs? If so, would I go 1m:4f for each of the 3?


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## DJRansome

Don't mix saulosi and hara...or any other combination of blue barred fish.

And if doing 3 species, do only 1m:4f of the saulosi.


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## ha77

Aggression wise my Hara have always been the worst. Currently in a 55g with the Maingano and Ruawre and still run the show...for now at least.


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## Scooby1974

ha77 said:


> Aggression wise my Hara have always been the worst. Currently in a 55g with the Maingano and Ruawre and still run the show...for now at least.


ha, aren't those all barred fish?


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## DJRansome

There are several mbuna from ruarwe. Maingano are striped fish.


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## Scooby1974

I like the Hara's light blue and bars and the Maingano's dark blue stripes but I wasn't sure you could do that. I was wondering if I could do try those two with yellow or white labs and when I looked up ruarwe it appears that they ARE labs...or I'm nuts?


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## ha77

Scooby1974 said:


> I like the Hara's light blue and bars and the Maingano's dark blue stripes but I wasn't sure you could do that. I was wondering if I could do try those two with yellow or white labs and when I looked up ruarwe it appears that they ARE labs...or I'm nuts?


http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... hp?id=2287


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## DJRansome

There are a bunch of mbuna from ruarwe. The labs from ruarwe are pretty unusual in the hobby although I've heard from someone who has them recently. But not a barred fish.

The elongates from ruarwe, on the other hand, is a barred fish. And the Metriaclima.

The problem I have with Maingano is tank size...might work in a 55G but some have had trouble with them in a 55G.


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## ha77

Not fully mature yet so I am expecting some issues but should have bigger tank by then.
Size wise right now..
Maingano 3.5" (1m-4f)
Ruawre 3" (1m -3f) 2 females holding
Hara 2-3" (No flippin clue)


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## Scooby1974

ha77 said:


> Scooby1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like the Hara's light blue and bars and the Maingano's dark blue stripes but I wasn't sure you could do that. I was wondering if I could do try those two with yellow or white labs and when I looked up ruarwe it appears that they ARE labs...or I'm nuts?
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... hp?id=2287
Click to expand...

ha, the Hara and the Ruarwe both look barred to me. They get along Ok? They are cool looking fish!

Is there something similar in color and striping to the Maingano's (dark blue/black stripes) that would go better with the Hara (bared) and Yellow or White labs (leaning yellow) in my 55g?


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## Scooby1974

ha77 said:


> Not fully mature yet so I am expecting some issues but should have bigger tank by then.
> Size wise right now..
> Maingano 3.5"
> Ruawre 3"
> Hara 2-3"


I did some measuring and I think I could get a 75 gallon tank in my wall without any modifications (outside of a slightly larger platform to sit it on. If I did a 90 gallon I'd need to cut the wall open a bit.......the wheels are turning (but the wallet keeps getting lighter so I'll need to wait).


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## DJRansome

The link is to elongatus which is a barred fish but not a Labidochromis. Females are drab.

A 90G won't buy you much for stocking so a 75G would be fine. But you know...there are a LOT of mbuna that would be fine in a 55G.


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## Scooby1974

DJ,

Is there something similar in color and striping to the Maingano's (dark blue/black stripes) that would go better with the Hara (bared) and Yellow or White labs (leaning yellow) in my 55g?

wes


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## DJRansome

No. Most of the striped mbuna are the scary aggressive ones like auratus.


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## Scooby1974

I like the Hara...that is a GO

I like the yellow labs to get some color other than blue.

I'm a fan of the male Rusty's, but I don't care for 3 or 4 boring brown females.

What else can I pair with light blue Hara and Yellow Laps that would bring some more color (dark blue, orange? red? etc.?)


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## ha77

I havent come to fully appreciate my Msobo yet because my male is just starting to color up. Orange/yellowish females with black and blue males. I still might do Msobo, Hara and White Labs if i can ever find some.


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## Scooby1974

I just looked the Msobo up...they are a funky mess of beautiful black and blue (don't look bared or striped) and yellow color! If they went with Hara and White laps I could try to hunt those down and keep you posted. I REALLY like the thought of that combo IF it would work in my 55 gallon.

dark blue, light blue, yellow (or orage), and white. That is what I've been trying to figure out by way of color combo!

Thoughts?


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## ha77

I obviously like it lol. Bigger tanks always better but I personally see no issues. The right male to female ratios and hardscape seem to be the most important factors IMO. 75g tanks just allow for more territories so alot less stress for the aggressive species and the fish keeper.


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## DJRansome

Scooby I think your last combination works well. Only one dark blue fish though...but all are beauties!


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## Scooby1974

18 pages later and my little indecisive/lack of fish matching confidence MAY be coming to a landing spot with a cycled tank. There are just TOO MANY options for my idealistic thinking to handle without shutting down for stretches of time. I keep running these fish through our friend "Dave's" site...I'm hoping I can work out an order from him rather than the LFS even though I'd rather stay local.......my witch friend just doesn't instill a lot of confidence in me.


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## Scooby1974

DJRansome said:


> Scooby I think your last combination works well. Only one dark blue fish though...but all are beauties!


I think I just peed in my pants a little...

Thank you guys!!!! I have my next marching orders!


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## ha77

:lol: Ahah good luck sir. It gets worse once you add fish though 8)


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## Scooby1974

ha77 said:


> :lol: Ahah good luck sir. It gets worse once you add fish though 8)


Oh no, what pain awaits me next?


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## Scooby1974

Can I look to order Juvenials at a ratio of 1:4 for these 3 species? 15 fish total? Will "they" know as juveniles what sex they are?


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## DJRansome

Usually a vendor that is selling fish as sexed juveniles is optimistic and likely to have a high error rate. If the fish are being sold by a reputable vendor and you want to pay for sexed fish (they cost more as they are more mature) then go ahead. Also fine to just get 8 unsexed juveniles and remove extra males as they mature and if they cause trouble.


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## Scooby1974

So I'd buy 8 juveniles of each rather than 5? What would I do with the trouble maker males? Try to sell them to my LFS? Whip up some tarter sauce?

I assume the other option is to spend more on older/sexed fish and then I know for sure what I'm getting.

Which option do you guys go with? Buying more young could cost the same as buying less but mature.


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## DJRansome

In general when keeping African cichlids it's good to have an outlet for rehoming. Come to the auction in NJ...1.5 hour drive for you.

Sexed fish are not 100% because 1 out of 100 could still be the wrong gender even from a very reputable vendor and what if someone dies...your ratios are messed up. Or what if get a survivor fry?

I usually buy 8 juveniles and rehome extra males. You actually make $$ because selling the adult males to your LFS (if you have an agreement) you buy for $8 and sell for maybe $10.

For haps and peacocks I will buy sexed adults if available...at least 1m:4f and then maybe the rest unsexed juveniles. And if I have an imbalance in my tank I will buy sexed adults...recently I was able to buy sexed adult Cynotilapia sp. hara.


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## Scooby1974

1.5 drive isn't so bad. What are the odds of finding the specific fish I want there? I think I'd be overwhelmed at this point and would end up coming home with goldfish and some used substrate.


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## DJRansome

I would not try to find specific fish to fill an aquarium. I am merely saying you have at least one option for rehoming.


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## Scooby1974

Ah, yes. Rehoming and perhaps small scale restocking.

I will get shopping and see what I can find.

Thanks a TON, fellas.


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## Scooby1974

D's have the Magunga and the White lab juveniles but only have $29/each adult "Hara". Should I order the 16 juvies and then just keep an eye out for juvi "hara" and get them when they have them stocked or do I need to get them all at the same time to avoid territories/fighting?


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## DJRansome

All at the same time also saves on shipping. I'd probably buy the adults...especially if you can get 1m:4f.


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## Scooby1974

I honestly can't afford to buy 15 adult fish. I'd be talking somewhere in the range of $400.


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## DJRansome

I was thinking only adults for the hara. Sometimes the vendors have things not listed.


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## Scooby1974

Ahh, I see. That might be more doable assuming the mature Hara wouldn't bother the 16 juveniles.


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## Scooby1974

Just sent a couple PM's but I can post this in here...

I'm considering buying eight 1" Hara + eight 1.5" White labs + eight 1.5" Metriaclima sp. Msobo.

Everything costs $9/each = 24 fish x $9= $216 + $55 shipping = $271(no tax) for 24 fish = $11.30/fish

24 little fish in my 55 gallon and they will be able to grow up together and hopefully sort out their issues early on before they are too tough. I'm sure I won't end up with 24 as time progresses.

Is that a reasonable plan? And a reasonable cost for fish delivered to my doorstep?


----------

