# Columnaris outbreak in mbuna tank?



## teacherdavid (May 26, 2013)

*Hi everyone , haven't been on here for a while, glad to be back, though I wish it was for a different reason. Tank info at the bottom. My apologies for the length of this original post but I tried to include all relevant info as suggested by forum guidelines AND because more info is always better than not enough.

I suspect I have a columnaris outbreak and would appreciate your opinions:

Does this look/sound like columnaris to you?
Have I started on a good course of treatment? 
Would you do anything differently? 
What do you think my survival chances are?

Thank you in advance*

:? *Two fish now have bloody ulcers and several (6?) have white stuff around their mouths which is 'cottony' but possibly also a little stringy. :-? Two of the fish with 'cotton mouth' also have redness/blood in the mouth area (see first picture below). It is worth noting the fish look worse today (Sunday) after treatment yesterday evening when the below photos were taken. No fish have the typical 'saddle' but the white stuff has spread to the fins/other areas of the smallest cyaneorhabdos (picture #3) and it also now covers the mouth of my large male (picture #2). My "Afra" also has an ulcer around the vent/anus (fish pictured first) * Microscopy photos are of L. caeruleus ulcer scraping taken today, stained with methylene blue and taken at various magnifications. My apologies for the low quality, my videoscope won't connect so I used the press-the-iPhone-to-the-eyepiece-and-try-your-best method.

*Pictures*








The "Afra", bad mouth ulcers now has ventral ulcer near vent/anus.









My beautiful alpha male cyaneorhabdos, mouth looks a lot worse now 









Smallest cyaneorhabdos, now has more 'cotton' on head/fins









100X good contrast microscopy









400X poor shot sorry









40X they don't normally look this 'squiggly' I think the bacterium are attached and therefore multiples look like long curving bacteria (like sausages that are still connected)

*Narrative and Symptoms:*
*1)New Fish:* I added two smallish Cyaneorhabdos juveniles and a few female Y.Labs about a week and a half ago. After 5 days of completely normal cichlid-food-devouring behavior, the pair of cyaneorhabdos were hiding in the rock work and wouldn't come out even for food. The next day they were both dead, but I didn't think much of it as they were new fish and that just happens sometimes.

*2)Ulcer: * I noticed right around the time that the new juvenile pair passed away that many of the other fish, especially the labs, were hiding in the top corners of the tank. My big male lab (5-6"?) has had issues with aggression in the past but as there weren't any torn fins I wasn't really worried. Maybe a day or two after that, I noticed a small ulcer on the side of one of the larger adult female cyaneorhabdos but absent any other symptoms thought it was possibly caused by aggression and again wasn't too worried.

*3)Outbreak: *A day or two after that (e.g. yesterday/Saturday) I sat in front of my tank as I do from time-to-time and noticed my Afra (?) was hiding behind the filter outlet-which he never does-and had 'cotton-mouth' which was also a bit bloody. I then noticed this same mouth issue on several other fish (4-5) and that the female cyaneorhabdos' ulcer had gotten a bit worse-slightly larger, maybe 4-5mm, and with raised scales around it. I googled the heck out of these symptoms and came up with a Flavobacterium Columnare
infection.

*4)Already done: * I have since used the following treatments/medications

 Started with a ~35gal water change and removal of chemical filtration media.
Reduced temp from 78º to 75ºF 
Salted tank to approximately 3%
Kanamycin (Kanaplex) per instructions
Erythromycin and Minocycline (Maracyn I and II) per instructions (later realized these are very ineffective at high pH)
Methylene blue bath of 6 most severely affected individuals - 30min.
Microscopy of cells from L. caeruleus mouth ulcer (pictures above) stained with methylene blue

***I'm not sure if the fish with visible infections are eating, yesterday all seemed good but today I'm not so sure. I do not think the Afra is eating. I fed the fish after the 30min methylene blue bath and of course upon reintroduction the dipped fish hid in the rock work right away and didn't come out for food. I'm hoping this is due to handling/bath stress and not actual loss of appetite.

*5) Plan for tomorrow:*

Test for ammonia/nitrite/nitrate/pH
Add Triple Sulfa (sulfaplex) per instructions when it arrives tomorrow via Amazon Prime

*FWIW I also have many chemicals and most stains on hand, ex:
*
 Malachite green (probably)
Potassium permanganate (definitely)
Formalin, (possibly)

*Tank info:*
I have a heavily stocked 55gal with Cyaneorhabdos (Maingano), Yellow Labs (L. caeruleus), an Afra (suposedly) a Rusty and a Socolofi, around 13fish total. About half the fish are adults and half are juveniles or possibly young adults (one of the labs is massive though). Tank has been setup for 3-4yrs now with no significant issues other than some aggression which led to rehoming. I don't have true 'caves' but have plenty of hardscape in the tank with many places to hide. I do a 20-35g water change every week or two (longer = bigger change), keep the tank at about 78°F, and run an XP-2 and XP-3 with lots of bio and a surface skimmer. I feed New Life Spectrum and Dainichi cichlid veggie pellets and have an efficient group of nerite snail rock-cleaners.

:fish:


----------



## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

None of your pics are working for me.


----------



## tanker3 (May 18, 2015)

I see no pictures.


----------



## teacherdavid (May 26, 2013)

*Thanks tanker3 and Deeda, my mistake trying to get Google Drive to host for me. 
These should work:*

*Pictures from this morning:*









"_Afra_" with bad lesions on mouth









Smallest _cyaneorhabdos_ with multiple lesions on body/fins/mouth









Alpha male _cyaneorhabdos_ mouth lesions









"_Afra_" showing ventral ulcer









Female cyaneorhabdos with multiple ulcers

*Pictures from yesterday:*









40X they don't normally look this 'squiggly' I think the bacterium are attached and therefore multiples look like long curving bacteria (like sausages that are still connected)









100X good contrast microscopy









400X poor shot sorry









"_Afra_" with mouth lesion









Alpha male _cyaneorhabdos_









Smallest _cyaneorhabdos_ with mouth lesion


----------



## judyok (Aug 12, 2014)

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.html

Check out this link, the article is the best I've read on columnaris and suggested treatments.


----------



## teacherdavid (May 26, 2013)

judyok said:


> http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.html
> 
> Check out this link, the article is the best I've read on columnaris and suggested treatments.


Yes thank you that site is great! 
Thats actually where I started. Per instructions I administered Kanamycin and will be adding Triple Sulfa later today. 
That site also taught me that Erythromycin and Minocycline do not work well at high pH and at the last time I checked my tap and tank both were at pH 8.4-8.6


----------



## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Your pics are now working so thanks for that. I wish I could help with suggestions for treatment but I have no experience with this issue. I do wish you the best of luck though and keep us posted on your progress. I feel so bad for the fish, they look so horrible!


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I scanned but did not see your water test results from the tank? pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?

Columnaris seems to happen after the fish are first injured. Your fish seem to have a lot of mouth injuries which makes me think lip locking and aggression. But columnaris is also not always bloody...maybe septicemia?


----------



## teacherdavid (May 26, 2013)

Deeda said:


> Your pics are now working so thanks for that. I wish I could help with suggestions for treatment but I have no experience with this issue. I do wish you the best of luck though and keep us posted on your progress. I feel so bad for the fish, they look so horrible!


*Thanks for the luck, they need it!  *



DJRansome said:


> I scanned but did not see your water test results from the tank? pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?


Yes sorry! Just got around to doing the tests, super busy day at work (where the tank is)! pH was much lower than I am comfortable with/lower than it has ever been--my water tested at the lower limit of the high pH kit *(7.4) *and also at the upper limit of the pH test kit* (7.6)*. I added baking soda and *pH is now 8.0 *according to the high pH kit. *Nitrate is also higher than I would have expected at around 40ppm*, though I have never felt I am doing that test accurately. I'm getting water ready for another 35gal change tomorrow; heavy on the salt and will check pH first. *Nitrite is 0ppm* but *ammonia appears to be .25ppm* though it's so hard to tell--I added a regular dose of prime to the tank just in case and will retest tomorrow. Should probably buy a new API master test kit too, they apparently do not have a great shelf life.

***Added SulfaPlex at recommended dosage (it says 2-3 scoops per 10gal so of course I did 3*50/10 = 15 scoops).



DJRansome said:


> Columnaris seems to happen after the fish are first injured. Your fish seem to have a lot of mouth injuries which makes me think lip locking and aggression. But columnaris is also not always bloody...maybe septicemia?


Its my understanding that septicemia isn't a pathogen or even a disease but a toxic condition caused by a bacterial infection which is (I'm assuming) a systemic infection at that point.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Agree. I'm just saying that if you have bloody wounds it's maybe not columnaris.


----------



## teacherdavid (May 26, 2013)

When I arrived at school today the "Afra" and more severely infected cyaneorhabdos had both died 
Now a few other fish are looking worse :-?

I did another water change (added sulfaplex to replace what was lost), pH is still 8.0-8.2 As temperature adjustment, salt, and antibiotics aimed at fighting columnaris have not had any apparent affect I no longer think this is columnaris. Though my fish started with mouth 'white stuff' I definitely agree this was an likely an opportunistic infection which was able to take hold due to aggression-related injuries and the primary symptom is now ulcers/lesions on the body, head, fins, and lips. It is really quite non-specific, though a lot of it did start at the mouth. DJRansome I think you had the right idea!!


DJRansome said:


> Columnaris seems to happen after the fish are first injured. Your fish seem to have a lot of mouth injuries which makes me think lip locking and aggression.


The death of the two worst-infected fish allowed me to take multiple scrapings and examine the bacteria further under the microscope. I don't have crystal violet (working on it) but have *everything else* needed to do a gram stain :roll: . With proper immersion oil (whoops!) I now see cocci (round) bacteria, not bacillus (round) bacteria. The tendency for them to form filaments/lines makes them look like streptococcus but that is really just a guess, I'm looking at Neomycin and Nitrofurazone next, depending on what the LFS has in stock-I really don' want to lose any more fish. Not-so-great pictures attached. It really looks a lot more like strep to the eye (as compared to the camera), though I have read strep more commonly affects the eyes.


----------



## AndrewJ (3 mo ago)

teacherdavid said:


> *Hi everyone , haven't been on here for a while, glad to be back, though I wish it was for a different reason. Tank info at the bottom. My apologies for the length of this original post but I tried to include all relevant info as suggested by forum guidelines AND because more info is always better than not enough.
> 
> I suspect I have a columnaris outbreak and would appreciate your opinions:
> *
> ...


I apologize if I brought up an old topic, but I wanted to thank you for the detailed description of the problem. I had a similar situation and I was looking for information. You have written everything in great detail. And I'm currently studying the answers, maybe I'll find a solution to the problem.


----------



## Rockfella (Aug 4, 2021)

AndrewJ said:


> I apologize if I brought up an old topic, but I wanted to thank you for the detailed description of the problem. I had a similar situation and I was looking for information. You have written everything in great detail. And I'm currently studying the answers, maybe I'll find a solution to the problem.


I want to thank you for bringing this to my attention as well


----------



## AndrewJ (3 mo ago)

Rockfella said:


> I scanned but did not see your water test results from the tank? pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?
> 
> Columnaris seems to happen after the fish are first injured.
> Your fish seem to have a lot of mouth injuries which makes me think lip locking and aggression.
> ...


Could this be due to the aggression of other fish? I'm just starting to get interested in aquarium fish, but I noticed that not all fish can coexist well with each other, now I'm looking for some kind of course on this topic.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yes columnaris can happen (but not always by any means) when fish are injured. A more common and very common aggression-related malady among Lake Malawi cichlids is bloat which also happens when fish are not good tank mates and have small injuries or just are exhausted from being chased.


----------



## AndrewJ (3 mo ago)

judyok said:


> Fish Columnaris | Fungus & Saprolegnia | Treatment & Prevention
> 
> Check out this link, the article is the best I've read on columnaris and suggested treatments.


----------



## dstuer (Mar 27, 2013)

Once the mouth/jaw area atrophies, there is little hope of survival.
When it first appears, an anti-biotic effective against "gram negative bacteria" is needed.
And injury is not the only way it accesses fish (although wounds hasten access).
If temp is too high (82'F or higher) it becomes especially virulent and progresses quickly.
In some cases I have seen raising the temp suggested, this is just the opposite of true.

Once it has run its course in a tank, inert cysts can survive in a smudge of dry stain, and reinfect if the tank, and all equipment that even so much as touched the water is not sanitized.

I find Columnaris is so dangerous and contagious, I usually euthanize all fish in the tank, 
fill the tank they were in with bleach solution and sink all equipment (nets, filter media, tubes, tank tops, etc etc) in the tank, continually refreshing bleach, and once that has sat for a couple weeks, start all over


----------



## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

In all my years of keeping aquariums, I've (fortunately!) never dealt with anything THAT horrible.
Whew..... Going right to the _*NUKE AND PAVE*_ option in that battle against this deadly bacteria? 
-
Just the thought of that will definitely help to make you a firm believer in using a Quarantine Tank.
EVERY TIME.
And yes, I HAVE had new fish die in quarantine. From.... who knows? And when/if that happens - the process is that the quarantine tank is broken down, sanitized completely (including all previously established biological filtration), and everything just starts all over again.


----------

