# New to CA/SA cichlids



## summerboy1958 (Dec 23, 2011)

I also posted this in the CA forum. I'm not sure which section it should be in!! 

I have a 30 gallon tank that I am currently getting under control for nitrates (much help from this forum!!). I tried, unsuccessfully, with Mawali species. They didn't do well, completely my fault. I let the tank get away from me. The current pH is 8.0 and KH 6 dKH (107.4 ppm GH/KH) as I have a Socolofi and a Zebra still living in the tank. I plan on returning them to my LFS. I won't get any money, but they will still be alive.

My tank dimensions are 36" L x 12" W x 16 3/4" H. I currently have an Emperor 280 HOB filter and a 150w water heater.

I would like to have a SA/CA community tank. I plan on replacing my regular aquarium gravel with pool filter sand and plastic plant (unless real plant and a different substrate work better for CA/SA). In an earlier thread, someone suggested that I look at the cookie cutter tank sizes for suggestions. I don't see a 30 (long) suggestion, only a 29.

I am intrigued by peaceful dwarf cichlids and would like to focus on that. My tap water is pH 7.2, KH - 3 dKH (53.7 ppm GH/KH) and nitrate - 5. I've never tried to keep species that are selective to soft water. Is it a challenge?

So any suggestions on a community? Can I have more than one species of cichlid in a tank this size? I am not interested in breeding, just want to have a group of happy, healthy critters who get along!!


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## mwomack (Oct 4, 2011)

I keep both bolivian rams and german blue rams in fairly hard, alkaline water (ph 8.2) so I think as far as that you'll be fine. Most fish are tank raised now, so stable is more important than what it is, especially if you don't care to breed. I have a group of 4 bolivans (1 male, 3 females) in a 25 gal. It doesn't often work, but it my case it would. I think 4 bolivians, or 4 german blues would work well, I wouldn't mix them tho. As far as tank mates I highly recommend cardinal tetras (especially if you want to do a blackwater of sorts, the color contrast is amazing). I have rasboras with my other rams.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

Like the last guy said, most of the fish you'll find for sale are tank raised, so as long as the parameters are stable and within reason, you'll be fine. I've successfully kept wild apistos in alkaline water (pH 7.5) without any problems, though I had to keep the water soft. A 30L is a 3 foot tank I think, so either 2 pairs of rams or a trio of apistos would be great for that tank. If you're going to go for blue rams, I suggest cardinal tetras, as they prefer warmer waters. If you want bolivian rams, most other tetras would be fine. As for apistos, it really depends on which you want, as they have a varied temp preference. Decor wise, dwarf cichlids do best in sand, or leaf litter, and as always, live plants are always better than fake: live plants add a more natural look to the tank, and also help soak up nitrates and other nutrients; they also help reduce algae growth by competing for the same nutrients that cause algae to grow.


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## summerboy1958 (Dec 23, 2011)

Thanks for the input. I think I am going to go with Blue Ram (and cardinals (a group of about 5 or 6). How about cat fish/algae eaters? I was thinking 2 cories and a pleco that stays small (is there one?).

I'm getting my sand and plants today and upgrading my lid and light. I hope to get fish next weekend.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

Cories are schooling fish, so if you're going to get some, get at least 6; bristlenose and rubberlip plecos both stay under 6 inches, and are very good algae eaters. You could also go for a school of otos, although I find that they tend to be finicky and delicate.


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## summerboy1958 (Dec 23, 2011)

What is an otos?


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

otocinclus, AKA dwarf sucker mouth catfish. They're related to plecos, but only get about 2.5 inches, and do a very good job of eating algae.


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## summerboy1958 (Dec 23, 2011)

BiB,

I read in an earlier thread that you don't recommend bottom scavengers with dwarfs (the fish in question were cories). Is that because the eggs/fry will get eaten? Or is it that there will be competition for food? Or is there another reason. I had planned on some cories to help keep the tank clean.

Also, you indicated that he could have 1 pair of 2 kinds of rams. My tank is smaller (30 gal vs his 38). Is my tank to small to try a pair of Bolivians and a pair of wild Blues?

Thanks!!


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## Sparrk (Oct 11, 2010)

you can go with nerite snails, they do a great job as algea eater, I have them in all my tanks except the planted one, cause the plants keep algea growth in check, there is no need for them. Since I put my snails in my tanks, I never had to scrub the glass in those tanks again!


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

I don't recommend bottom feeders like cories with dwarves because the cories will eat the eggs, but also because the dwarves like their territory, and the cats may be confined to the middle/upper levels of the tank. The dwarves will keep the bottom clean with their constant scavenging anyways, though in a 36" tank you could probably get away with 8 cories. For dwarf cichlids, all cichlids for that matter, the volume of the tank is insignificant compared to the footprint. A 30g is 36" by 12" I believe, so yes you could have 2 pairs of rams, or a trio of apistos. However, I highly suggest not mixing the two different species of rams, as the blues, especially wild ones, prefer much warmer temps than do bolivians. Bolivians prefer water around 78-80F, while blue rams do best in 84-86F, and they'll tolerate water up to the 90s. If this is your first time at dwarves, I'd suggest bolivians, or the easier to keep apistos (cacatuoides, agassizii, borelli, etc). they're more mistake tollerant, and are usually hardier, and easier to breed. Plus, a group of bolivian rams is very interesting to watch; their social behaviour, most would find, is quite interesting. Keep in mind that all dwarves are quite sensitive to nitrogenous wastes, so only attempt these guys if you're sure you won't let the tank waste away: if you give them the proper care, these little fish will reward you nicely for your efforts.

And yes, nerite snails are excellent algae grazers, if you don't mind the white eggs they'll lay everywhere


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## summerboy1958 (Dec 23, 2011)

Great advice, I'll nix the cories. I suggested them as I read somewhere (not, I don't think) that Rams may be very particular about what they eat. I didn't know that they would act as "scavengers" (even to a minor degree).

Is there really 3 levels in a 30 gal (~ 17" tall)? If there are, I suppose that tetras inhabit the middle level? What would work in place of small cories that like the surface and won't mean I have too many fish.

I am really just trying to get a feel for this as I hosed badly with Africans and don't want a repeat. I'm planning on getting fish in stages (dither's first to make sure the tank is right).


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

Tetras will take all levels, but they prefer medium-bottom. Most of the dwarves I get are picky at first, but 3-4 days without any food and they'll inhale anything i put in. Dwarf cichlids are bottom dwelling fish, so yes they will dig through the substrate for food, though not as extensively as cories. In any case, you shouldn't be feeding so much that a ton of food hits the bottom anyways. If you want something that is strictly a top dweller, then you could get a school of hatchet fish; they're small, schooling characins, just like the tetras. The difference, though, is that the hatchets will jump out of the tank if there is even the smallest gap, so if you do get them, make sure you cover every inch of the surface first.


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## summerboy1958 (Dec 23, 2011)

So would a mix look something like:

2 pair Bolivian Rams
5 - 6 Tetras (maybe Rummy Nosed?? Columbian??)
5 - 6 Marbled Hatchetfish
3 - 4 Otos

Or do you think this is too much to start out? I could skip the hatchets and get a bigger school of tetras......


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

i would stick with 1 school; the characins will feel safer, and it won't stress the bioload as badly, which means less water changes  if you have the time though, you could do 8-10 hatchets and 8-10 of the smaller tetras (anything streamlined should be fine), though then you'd probably be looking at ~40% water change twice a week or so.

I'd say the safest option would be something like this:

4 bolivian rams (start with 6-8 juveniles, keep 2 pairs)
12-15 tetras (any one species)
5-6 otos


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## summerboy1958 (Dec 23, 2011)

I got my 1st round of plants in and 4 otos, in another week or so, I'll get some more plants and my tetras. I have a left over catfish that I have yet to get rid of (he is real beat up and can hardly swim. My daughter feels sorry for it, she calls him nubs...).

( http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/_s ... es_id=4123 )

My LFS has Bolivian Rams and that may be my best choice because of availability. Are they any easier or harder than the Apistos? Some of the Apistos are pretty cool looking. Again, though, I want to start with easy.....


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

Depends on which apistos; I find that they're about the same in difficulty as cacatuoides and agassizii. And even the other species of apistos aren't all that delicate, as long as you provide them with the proper care.


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## summerboy1958 (Dec 23, 2011)

OK, I am a week into the new set up. My plants seem to be thriving. I put in 4 otos. One died and was replaced. I still have my old catfish, "nubs". My nitrates are around 20 (nitrite and ammonia are 0) with a 5 gallon water change every 5 or 6 days. The Nitrate in my tap water is still about 5.

After much consideration, chats with my daughter who has really great luck with fish, I am now leaning towards a school of rummy nose tetras (~10 or so). I plan on getting them tomorrow with some more plants. I'll try to get a picture of the tank after that. I'm still soaking my branches, so they will go in later.

I had planned on Bolivian Rams, but now think that Apistogramma cacatuoides would look better. I'm going to have to hunt for them as my LFS doesn't seem to carry them. They will order them though. What is the best way to get a trio for my tank? I'm used to being able to select the fish I want. With the Rams, I was going to get 7 or 8 and wait for two pairs. However, while my LFS would take back the extras, but would not give me anything for them. At $10 each, I don't have 30 or $40 to write off.

If they order 3 Apistos, I get what is sent. Is that normal for these fish? How easy is it to tell male vs female when young? Does just getting 1 m/2 f ensure that they will "get along"?


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

I've always just picked the best females and male that I see, and I've not had any major problems so far; they squabble a bit initially, but after a few days the aggression disappears. As for sexing them, apistos are usually sent in at an age where they can be sexed somewhat. For cacatuoides, look carefully at the tail and fins; males have the lyre tail, and the first few strands of the dorsal fin are very prominent, snd even at a young age, these characteristics will start to show.

here are a few pictures of my wild caughts.

Male:


















female:


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