# Survival Percentage of African Cichlid Mbuna Fry?



## Johnenewt1 (Mar 6, 2008)

Hello,
I have been stripping fry from my Yellow Labs, Pseud. Acei and Rusties at 21 days (no egg sac is present). The fry live in net breeder boxes. I feed the fry twice a day of crushed Omega One super veggie flakes, crushed Julian Sprung seaweed flakes, and Hikari frozen baby brine shrimp cubes. I do 20% partial water changes weekly. The PH in the tank is 7.9 and the temperature is 78 degrees. There are no ammonia/nitrate/nitrite levels present in their tank. The survival rate of these fry has been 60%. The remaining 40% are found dead at the bottom of the box. One fry dies every 2-3 days. The deaths stop when they are older and hardy enough to survive. Is this normal, or should more of them be surviving? Please let me know. Thank you for your help. 

John


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## why_spyder (Mar 2, 2006)

Are these breeding nets in the main tank or a big juvenile tank?

Cichlids have a knack for sucking fry (whole or partial) through a breeder net/box.


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## Fischfan13 (Jun 12, 2003)

A few things...
Feed your fry more than twice per day...maybe 5 times.
Change the water in a fry's tank daily, or at worst every other day...I change 50% per day with fry.
STOP stripping. You might be injuring the fry by stripping incorrectly.

All of my fry survive!


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## gmaschke (Aug 23, 2008)

I alomost always strip and rarely have I lost fry or noticed any deformaties, however all my Demasoni's seem to swim up and down the tank walls on a slant is this normal my largest is about 3/4 inch and they do swim around straight every now and then.

I strip cause I'll never catch the fry in the mains and and all my small tanks have fry so no where to separate females and let them spit.


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## letstalkfish (Dec 25, 2008)

i always strip the fry with and without egg sack fully consumed and i never have any fatalities. I do weekly water changes and they seem to grow quickly but the thing is I have a 55 gal fry tank. I feed them twice a day. I feed them a mixture of omega one kelp flakes, omega one veggies flakes and hikari first bites


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I think your main problem is the breeder box. You need a seperate tank to raise fry in.

You also need to do more water changes, and make sure you aren't overfeeding.

When I was breeding mbuna, I rarely lost any fry, so you're not doing something right!

As suggested, if these breeder nets are in your main tank, that may be an issue, but in reality, you can't keep a breeder net clean enough to raise healthy fry in, especially with one 20% water change a week.


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## bac3492 (Jul 25, 2008)

Fischfan13 said:


> STOP stripping. You might be injuring the fry by stripping incorrectly.
> 
> All of my fry survive!


As do mine but i strip. I strip at 18 days every time.

I think more fry survive if you strip early because there is limited space in mom's mouth.
If you strip early, i think you save more, and you prevent babies from having deformities from lack of space. (crooked spines....)

IMO

But i do think you need to be good at it. The first time i tried it i remember having a baby die because i took the tool out of the mothers mouth and she bit down onto it.


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## Johnenewt1 (Mar 6, 2008)

Hey everyone,
Thank you very much for your helpful feedback. I posted this topic on multiple African Cichlid forum websites. Here is some more information I have composed to give you a better idea of my setup and to answer all of your questions:

- the fry live in 4 separate mesh nylon net boxes (not plastic) hanging at the top of my 65 gallon tank
- the net boxes are in the tank with the adult cichlid fish
- I clean the nets every night with a turkey baster
- the tank has dry aragonite in it which keeps the PH high
- I add Seachem Cichlid Lake salt during water changes
- the tank was cycled over a year ago
- I have air tube lines with an air stone inside each net box
- according to the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals ammonia/nitrate/nitrite test kits, none of these properties are present
- the deaths occur within every group of babies (I've had 6 groups so far)
- I use Lee's Aquatic breeder box - dimensions are @ 6"x6"x6".
- adult fish can't be sucking the fry THROUGH the net, since they are found dead inside the net
- I watch the tank at all times of the day/night, and never see any fish trying to suck at them (but it doesn't mean it's not happening though, where they may be injuring and killing fry)
- none of the fry ever swim funny/look sick - one day the fish is alive, the next - withered away at the bottom of the net box
- the water quality may be poor - the pipes leading to my house are very rusty. Rusty water comes in even after the house has a double-filtration system for removal of rust, sediment, cysts, VOC's, etc.
- i strip the fry because the tank is well stocked with plants/rocks/caves/decorations and I don't have any small hiding places for the fry to hide in if they were automatically released by the Mom in the main water where the adults live.

Well, based on all of your feedback, it sounds like there is no one simple answer:

I could:
- increase the number of feedings/day as all fry may not be eating
- change the water daily instead of weekly
- add/change the diet to: Hikari first bites, daphnia, or NLS 1MM sinking pellets
- reduce the amount of food at one feeding
- strip the pregnant fish earlier or later
- increase the water current along the side of the net boxes
- although the butterfly plecos keep the outside walls of the net box clean, I could wipe down the inside walls of the net box to increase water exchange
- the best solution sounds like I should keep the fry in the net box for the 1st couple of weeks, then when they get bigger, I should put them in a larger fry bare-bottom grow-out tank (20 gallons or above). My 100+ fry have been in the net boxes for 4 months now and are growing at a very slow rate - the oldest fry are only 3/4" long! (Yes, you can yell at me now - lol). I understand now that they should have been in a separate tank a long time ago.

I will definitely try these suggestions and let you know what happens. Thank you again. 

John


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

> - the best solution sounds like I should keep the fry in the net box for the 1st couple of weeks, then when they get bigger, I should put them in a larger fry bare-bottom grow-out tank (20 gallons or above). My 100+ fry have been in the net boxes for 4 months now and are growing at a very slow rate - the oldest fry are only 3/4" long! (Yes, you can yell at me now - lol). I understand now that they should have been in a separate tank a long time ago.


I'm not sure why you feel the need to use the breeder nets at all. Breeder nets are okay for small holding moms (you aren't feeding them) and for sick or questionably sick fish.

Basically, if you're serious about breeding, you need more than one grow out tank...

You need one (2G or 5G will do) for newly released fry, as older fry will kill younger fry that have just been released...It takes them a couple of weeks to get their bearings after they are released, and they are easy prey for any older fry, not to mention adults.

Then you need a larger tank for older fry to complete the grow out period. (I would recommend at least a 25 - 29G if you're going to be growing out several clutches at once.)

Many species of fry don't mix well, so you have to take that into consideration as well. For instance, I would not keep anything in with auratus fry...Ever...

Your current fry are growing at a very slow rate because you cannot possibly care for them in the breeder nets as you would in a grow out tank. Cleaning the nets with a turkey baster isn't going to do the job.

For new fry (for the first month - if you're trying to grow them out quickly) feed 3-4 times a day, and do daily water changes, or every other day if you can't handle daily. They'll grow so fast you won't know what to do with them.

After a month, move them to a larger tank, and cut the feedings back to 2 or 3 a day, and do 2-3 water changes a week. I don't breed anymore but I used to, and this was the best method I could use to move the fish through quickly.

I can't imagine having 100+ fry in 4 breeder nets, and I'm not in the least bit surprised that your mortality rate is so high after hearing that. Under those circumstances, I think you're doing the best you can do with what you have to work with, but if you really want to breed cichlids, you need to invest in more equipment and change the way you do things.

Whether your fry are dying by the adults attempting to get them through the net, or the fact that you can't keep the nets as clean as necessary, it doesn't sound like it's working out real well for you, and the fry have to be pretty miserable.

If you don't want to (or need to) get the extras necessary for raising fry, then I would just allow the moms to release the fry into the main tank. IMO, it's no less humane than cramping them in those boxes for months on end. :roll:


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## khaki (Jan 12, 2008)

What I do is run two 20gallon, a 20high and a 20gallon long for older fry. and since i am on a low budget I run tubs! Go to wal mart or somewhere that sell tubs! I am running currently 2 15gallon tub! put a sponge filter and a heater in your tank and your done. I do WC Twice a week! Survival percentage, 98%


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## wheatbackdigger (May 11, 2008)

gmaschke said:


> I alomost always strip and rarely have I lost fry or noticed any deformaties, however all my Demasoni's seem to swim up and down the tank walls on a slant is this normal my largest is about 3/4 inch and they do swim around straight every now and then.
> 
> I strip cause I'll never catch the fry in the mains and and all my small tanks have fry so no where to separate females and let them spit.


My demasoni fry did the same thing. Swam on a slant and upside down. Seemed like they didn't know up from down. After a few weeks they stopped and got their bearings.

Survival rate 98%. Sometimes stripped, sometimes let the mother spit. I don't keep alot of broods though. Most the time I let them spit in the main tank and survival rate drops to about 2%


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## steve426 (Nov 23, 2008)

Call me crazy but I strip all my fish after about 3-5 days and put all my eggs in a tumbler. I have about a 98% survival rate and the females don't get skinny, and they breed again that much sooner. It works great for me, i have more fry than I know what to do with. LOL


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## nchoe123 (Nov 11, 2007)

i've only lost one or two fry, out of 50 or something, so what's that 2-4%? 96-98%?

i've done the strip thing, and the natural spit; but always in a separate tank.

for the past couple spawns i've been like "i'm going to let her just spit" but i end up taking mom out of the main tank for a few weeks after all. i mean, i have enough spare tanks, why not?


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## Johnenewt1 (Mar 6, 2008)

Thanks Cichlidaholic - best step-by-step instructions I've received, and needed!


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

Three days before I went on vacation, I stripped a holding mom at about day 14 and got 11 fry from her (was her first successful hold). I put them in their own 10 gal tank and fed them 2x daily with a water change on the third day - right before I left. I was able to get a neighbor to come feed my fish every other day (I had crushed up some NLS pellets and gave him instructions to suspend them with a syringe and shoot it down into the bottom of the tank). Also, before leaving I turned the temperature down to 76 degrees.

Since I was going to be gone for 20 days, I honestly didn't expect any of the fry to survive. My neighbor doesn't know the first thing about fish, so I didn't ask him to clean the tanks. But low and behold when I returned, 11/11 fry had survived. They hadn't grown very much, probably because nitrates were higher than they should be and feedings were about 1/4 what they should be, but I was still shocked at the survival rate I witnessed.

Mbuna fry are more durable than I expected.


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