# Please help evaluate my sump design (follow up to Sumps 101)



## kkbward (Jan 1, 2007)

I realized i had kinda shifted topics in my "Sump 101" thread so i thought i would start a new one. Please take a look at my design and please let me know if you think i am on the right track. Some specific questions:

-What is the preferred approach on the bio-media? OK to have half submerged like i have it in my drawing?
-How about having the water all one level, like i have shifted to doing?
-Any other changes i need to make?


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## Guams (Aug 21, 2009)

Having some of your bio-media submerged won't be an issue...

Having your water all one level in the sump won't be an issue...

You don't really need the bubble-trap/baffles, but you can keep them. I would also extend the return pipe to below the water line in the sump, otherwise you'll have an annoying splashing noise. Also, make sure that check valve isn't your only fail-safe for when you have a power failure. Have a siphon-break on your return just below the water line in your display tank.

Oh, one more thing. Go with a gate valve and not a ball valve. I use a ball valve in mine and it worked well... but only for a little while. Now it's kinda tough to make any fine adjustments.

If you remove the baffles, yours is pretty darn similar to mine.


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## Cichlidude (Feb 7, 2010)

The question is how much water will be pumped into the tank if the siphon fails? You should raise the pump up to the level that will support the tank and then is should blow dry since there is not enough water now. Otherwise if the siphon fails, your tank will overflow in seconds.


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## wheatbackdigger (May 11, 2008)

I don't use check valves, I make sure that if the power goes out, there is plenty of room in the sump. You may want to route your "T" regulator back through your mechinacal filter media. Depending on how much water is recirculating in your pump chamber, it could get warm, plus the added benefit of running it through the filter again. One inch between baffles is pretty tight, you may want spread them out a bit. I used 2 X 4's as spacers so mine are 3 1/2" apart and that was a little tight for my hands.
Lastly, if your mechanical media gets clogged, where will the water go, hopefully not on the floor.

It's a good design, IMO I think it could be a little better.

Here is my design for my 360G. I have it cycling at the moment. Same concept, but I left room between my baffles for added media. It was a little tight, when siliconing. I don't have my pump "T" yet, I'll do that later when I add my UV sterlizer. Also, I have about 75% of my bioballs above the water line. I don't know if that makes a difference or not

Good luck
Doug


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## Guams (Aug 21, 2009)

You make a good point. Leave the baffles in, and less water water will be pumped into your display tank if the siphon fails.


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## kkbward (Jan 1, 2007)

wow - i really like that design. what are you using for the media in the middle? your point on the mech layer right at the intake is is well taken and i was worried about that...

your plumbing has me a bit confused (again - i am really clueless here...). i get having the the pump return going back through the filter media - might as well right - that makes sense. and i know you have not hooked up the plumbing to get it back to your tank, but i dont get where your intake will be since the only intake i see going into the bio media is from the return pump...

finally - why the egg crate between the baffles? just spots for more media?

I REALLY appreciate the responses here guys - y'all have already saved me from several mistakes....


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

When designing a sump the first thing you need to do is research and google. Then after spending time researching the next thing to do is research some more. The more time spent reading up on this subject the less time wasted on trying to quick fix an oversight.

There is no mystery to a sump. It is just a container to hold water before you pump it back to the display. What you do with in the container is up to your imagination.

Use backward engineering.

1: How tall in inches is the display? How many gallons is the display? Divide gallons by inches tall and get gallons per inch.

2: How many inches will the display drain if power is lost? Multiply that by your gallons per inch, that is how much you will need to always keep as empty volume in your sump and then some.

3: How many inches will be left from the display tank water line to display tank rim when the system is operational? Design your pump well to never hold more than this volume using stand pipes, baffle height or any other way to insure you never overfill the display in the event of blockage to the overflow.

4: No baffle or glass partition should ever reach the top of the sump. Always leave them an inch or three lower to prevent one chamber from overflowing the sump.

5: Research all you can. Then read some more.

6: See #5

The baffles can be spaced at 1 inch. no need for all of them to be siliconed on both sides when using a glass sump. Just make sure the ones that need to be such as the pump well are installed first so you can get to both sides before installing the next baffle.


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## kkbward (Jan 1, 2007)

Thanks Fox - I totally agree on the research front - it may seem like i came here first without doing my homework - but i know better than that. i guess i just have not found some of the higher level concepts like the ones you have provided.... most of the reef sites where you get the most info about sumps assume you know these rules and i just dont.

hopefully these threads will be good material for someone searching higher level info down the line...


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## wheatbackdigger (May 11, 2008)

kkbward said:


> wow - i really like that design. what are you using for the media in the middle? your point on the mech layer right at the intake is is well taken and i was worried about that...
> 
> your plumbing has me a bit confused (again - i am really clueless here...). i get having the the pump return going back through the filter media - might as well right - that makes sense. and i know you have not hooked up the plumbing to get it back to your tank, but i dont get where your intake will be since the only intake i see going into the bio media is from the return pump...
> 
> ...


kkbward, the plumbing is just a temp loop for now to keep water circulating while it cycles. The horizontal piece of PVC pipe will be removed and a 8 foot tank will be sitting there instead. The media in the center is one layer of Poret sponge, four layers of Matala. The eggcrate baffle next to the bioball chamber will have cermaric rings from my FX5's on my tank that 
I am upgrading. The last eggcrate baffle (before the pump chamber) will contain filter floss, carbon and purigen for polishing. I really don't need this media until the tank is hooked up and running.

Hopefully that all makes sense

Fox brings up a good point, the baffles should not go all the way to the top.


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## kkbward (Jan 1, 2007)

OK - I used WBD's decign and another i saw on youtube and i think i have my sump.

also based on fox's advice, i did my math to determine baffle height and i went a little conservative, but based my calculation on expecting to lose up to 1.5 inches of display tank depth which is about 8.5 gallons - i added 2 gallons for plumbing and the syphon box. this overflow equaled 5 inches in the sump (the darker shading in my drawing) and i have a little buffer just in case. my operating volume in the sump is 17 gallons.

i may still raise the pump up as i think in my design, if i have the tank totally siphon to the max point and then stop, the pump will run dry after putting back the overflow and then few gallons in the pump chamber and i could overflow the display.


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## earache (Feb 23, 2009)

So I have a quick question about most sump designs I've seen. Why is the mechanical filtration located after the bio? Shouldn't it be the other way around? In my 60g with built in wet/dry the mechanical is before the bio. Don't you want to filter out all the **** before it gets to your bio?


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## kkbward (Jan 1, 2007)

I would rather have my mech filtration ahead of my bio, but i want quite a bit of it and it's tough to set that up and keep the bio above the water line. I will likely try and do a pre-filter. I have to just make sure it stays open to keep from having a mess from clogging.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

You can use filter socks and keep one on hand ready to swap out the dirty one in use. I have also set up sterlite/ tupperware containers as drip trays with a piece of eggcrate on the bottom and then use filter material in there but I found it to take up more time in maintenance but get an excellent crystal clear water collumn using different grades filter material. Tinker here and come to your own conclusions. Noise plays a part here also.

To solve the pump well volume, use another baffle on the mech filter side of the pump well at the same height as the one you have now in the pump well then lower the baffle in the pump well to your calculated volume height. Or raise the pump, use a standpipe, etc ...

What is going to happen is you will do all the math to get in the "ball park"in designing your sump. Then you will fill the display until it over flows and starts to fill the sump. Continue until it fills the sump to your calculated MAX level. Mark the sump, this is the "Power Off" level. *Never fill above this line with power off* Then turn on the pump(s) on and let the sump stabilize. Mark this level, you will use this as a "Top Off" for evaporation. *Never fill above this line with "Power On".
*
There are other considerations you will need to include such as anti siphon breaks, do not rely on check valves, Ball/ Gate valves to quiet the plumbing and such. This is where researching pays off.


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## kkbward (Jan 1, 2007)

OK - i had to get a 29 and so i needed to change things up a bit - i think i have taken everything from the posts above and what i could gather from the web and i think i have what i am going to build.

i am definitely going to drill a hole in the outlet above the water line to protect from a reverse siphon and i think everything else will be based on my ball-park math and a whole lot of testing before i ever try to put fish in the tank.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

kkbward said:


> i am definitely going to drill a hole in the outlet above the water line to protect from a reverse siphon


Drill this hole *just below *the operating water level.

Lower that standpipe, if it is needed.

You have a glass partition reaching the sump rim.


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