# Old 29 Gal to New Shell Dweller



## jlgvusn (Aug 6, 2013)

I'm Janice ("jlgvusn") and a new member of this forum. I've had several longterm community tanks and one angelfish tank over the years. Currently, I have (had) two community 29 gal tanks and one species-specific 10 gal tank. Later this year, I'll be setting up a new 55 gal for angels, but now, I'm converting one of the 29 gal tanks to a shell dweller tank.

Now, I need your help, please. I have read so much info about Lake T shell dwellers and their needs that I have confused myself :-? (Note: doesn't take much!) When you add my analytical, crazy to be perfect nature to the confusion... well, you get my drift. I've taken apart one of my two cycled 29 gal community tanks to convert to a shell dweller tank. PFS substrate with some crushed coral added. Added 30 xl escargot shells, a few rocks, and a very few plastic plants. Kept old filter alive by hanging it on another tank, and once the shellie tank was setup, I hung a new filter on it and put the guts of the old filter into the tank water. Never tried this before, but am adding Stability each day. Basically, as of last week, the tank is "done," except for fish and water parameter guidance.

My take-away from everything I've read is:
1. leave your water alone and let the fish adjust (my tap water = pH 7.4; gh 6-7º; kh 4º; no nitrates); 
2. use household "chemicals" to bring the water to the desired parameters;
3. use proprietary formulas to bring the water to the desired parameters; or
4. use a combination of the above.

Now you know why I am confused; well, you know ONE of the reasons I am confused ;-)

As far as water parameters go, I broke down and purchased Lake T salts, buffer, and trace elements. Two days ago, I added salts. One day ago, I added buffer. Both in slightly less amts than recommended on the bottle. Today, my water is pH 8.2, gh 13º; kh 6º. I don't know what my next steps are 

Do I have to check those parameters every day? (PLEASE say, "No.")

Will weekly 10% water changes be ok? Do I treat the water-change-water to match the tank water, so I'd check the tank levels first and then match those parameters in the change water (not top-off water)? (I understand about temp and chlorine, etc.)

Is it safe to ASSume that this tank is cycled, although the new filter may not yet be colonized?

Would 6 or 8 multis be a good start? What other fish might I add?

What about assassin snails or MTS?

And..., LOL..., is there some other question or subject I've forgotten to ask about? Perhaps something along the lines of quantum entanglement?

Thanks so much everyone! Janice


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Welcome to C-F, Janice!!!

Sorry but I definitely cannot help you with quantum entanglement.

First, PFS is a great choice as a substrate. Your fish will thank you for it. Ditto on the quantity of shells and the addition of rocks. Good call on maintaining the filter bio during the changeover.

Now for the water parameters. Your tap water pH is just perfect for multies. Your KH is a bit low, over 5 is preferred to help maintain pH stability. You could check out the Chemistry section in the Library Articles in my signature to find a home made recipe to raise the KH. This would save you a considerable amount of money over purchasing store bought products.

In order to determine if your tank is cycled, we need to know the Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate levels in the tank. Hopefully you have test kits for these.

I'm a big fan of weekly water changes and I do suggest a minimum of 25% though I personally do 50%. My fish enjoy the new water, it helps to keep the nitrates low, it can stimulate spawning and it does remove other 'stuff' from the water so it improves fish habitat.

Multies would be a great choice and will thoroughly enjoy moving that PFS around the tank. That sounds like a good number to start with so that you would hopefully end up with a good ratio of males to females. I can think of some good additions to complement them but suggest holding off for now.


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## jlgvusn (Aug 6, 2013)

Thanks so much, Dee. I've read several of the articles in the libray and am going to retest my tap water because I didn't even consider dechlorinating it and aerating it overnight prior to testing. I'll work on the KH with the proprietary Lake T buffer I already bought and used and, when it's gone, I'll switch to homemade ;-)

There is no ammonia, no nitrite, and no nitrate in the soon-to-be multies tank! Yay! I gave the sponge from the old filter a squeeze and will re-check again tomorrow.

Do you think it's time to order my multies? I have a great LFS but they do not stock shell dwellers. 
Janice


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

jlgvusn said:


> Thanks so much, Dee. I've read several of the articles in the libray and am going to retest my tap water because I didn't even consider dechlorinating it and aerating it overnight prior to testing. I'll work on the KH with the proprietary Lake T buffer I already bought and used and, when it's gone, I'll switch to homemade ;-)
> 
> There is no ammonia, no nitrite, and no nitrate in the soon-to-be multies tank! Yay! I gave the sponge from the old filter a squeeze and will re-check again tomorrow.
> 
> ...


I believe you actually want a reading of nitrates. The tank is not cycled until they are present.

Check out the 29G cookie cutter article for suggests on species to go with your shellies. 
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/c ... er_29g.php


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Yes, you should definitely have a nitrate reading in a cycled tank.


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## jlgvusn (Aug 6, 2013)

Of course I do; I've got a nitrate reading in the other two tanks. Duh.... Thanks!


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## jlgvusn (Aug 6, 2013)

Many thanks for help. As it turned out, I was apparently unsuccessful in maintaining the bio media of my old filter. So, I have continued the fishless cycling, still adding ammonia each morning after testing. This tank will be cycled within the next few days (0 ammonia, falling nitrite now 1 ppm, 40-80 ppm nitrate). I have discovered some of the dreaded anerobic pockets in the sand/crushed coral substrate, which I have corrected as they have occurred. Before adding fish, I'll go at least one big water change and will keep feeding the bio material with ammonia until I have fish.

So..., as you know, I was going to start with a group of multis, but I've looked at the cookie cutter tank recommendations and this one appeals to me: 
You could aim to have two pairs of fish. Your choice: (Works for 29gal also)
• Julidochromis regani - 1 pair 
• Neolamprologus leleupi - 1 pair 
• 'Lamprologus occelatus- 1 trio

Does this mean my goal would be 7 adult fish in my 29 gal tank? But I would have to start with more of each to create pairs, and then relocate the "extras?" Also, I have read that it's best to add all of one type at a time. Would I get a small group of occelatus settled, then add a few regani, then the leleupi?

When I read the profiles of these fish, the N. leleupi profile specifically mentions major aggression towards some (most?) shell dwellers to eat their fry. Apparently, the ocellatus can defend itself? And I would need to adjust the contents of my shellie tank to include rock caves?

Finally, I think I need MTS. At what point would I add them, and how many to start?

Thanks so much and apologies if I should have posed to a different forum. The cichlid world is totally foreign to me (except for angels).
Janice


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Janice, your cycle is progressing very well, you are almost there.

The Tanganyika cookie cutter setup is a bit ambitious so I don't recommend N. leleupi in your setup. They are pretty aggressive and will definitely cause problems in the smaller tank.

How deep is the sand substrate in the tank? You shouldn't need more than an inch of substrate. Malaysian Trumpet Snails (MTS) are an excellent way of keeping the substrate aerated and removing any uneaten food BUT they can become a problem if you tend to over feed. I have them in many of my tanks and any excess snails can be easily trapped using a piece of zucchini or cucumber and disposed of properly or shared with other aquarists that feed them to their fish.


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## jlgvusn (Aug 6, 2013)

Hi, Dee, the sand substrate is at least 2 inches deep (maybe more). If I remove some (ha! half of it!), will it interfere with cycling?

I'm definitely not inclined to over feed, so that will not be a contributing factor to a tank overrun with MTS. What is the proper disposal method, though?

As far as cichlid stocking goes, I am pretty wide open, Dee; truly. Only limited by tank size ;-) and no outrageously expensive or delicate fish. I'd like little shell dwellers and something that uses the mid- to upper water column; COLOR or other visual appeal is high on my list.

Thank you
Janice
10 gal- 4 head & tail lights
29 gal- 6 black skirts, 6 rummy nose, 4 otocinclus vittatus
29 gal- in progress for shell dwellers / cichlids
55 gal- waiting to be set up for angelfish


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## Pseudeotropheus BB (Jan 24, 2013)

Janice,

I have a 30G Tang tank with Brevis (1m/6f) , Caudo's (1m/4f) and Transcriptus (1m/2f) and have had very little problems with compatibility. The tanks design is 1/3 shell, 1/3 sand and 1/3 cave. I will mention the the Caudo's are regular visitors to the shell area and enjoy darting in and out.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I would remove the sand now. Bacteria grows on all tank surfaces, but largely on your filter media. You will be fine moving it out now.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Reducing the amount of sand should not make an impact on your cycle progress. Also, if you do decide to get any shellies, they will be moving any and all of the substrate around the tank to suit their desires. I've ended up with 1" of substrate being moved to create 4" tall hills.

The proper way of dealing with excess snails is to crush them, freeze them thoroughly in a bag and dispose of them in the trash IF you don't have anyone that is willing to take them. You don't want to contribute to the possibility of introduced or non-native species getting out into the environment.

What fish are available in your area? Or do you plan on ordering fish online? I know it is very difficult to choose your first shell dwelling cichlids, we have all been in the same boat. They all have great personalities and it is hard to choose only one. I started with ex-Neolamprologus similis and was hooked on shellies immediately.


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## jlgvusn (Aug 6, 2013)

My tank is cycled (0-0-80); just needs a big water change or two. Removing the excess sand/crushed coral didn't have any adverse impact on the cycle  (Thanks, Iggy + Dee!)

I'm going to use up the 3 huge bottles of the Seachem tang stuff I naively purchased; seems ridiculous to let them sit around. Today: pH 8.2, gh 13º; kh 6º.
Tomorrow, I'll retest because I "doctored" it a bit (less than bottles say) in an effort to increase kh. I will say, though, I often think about just letting these water parameters level themselves out and stick to my tap water (pH 7.4; gh 6-7º; kh 4º; no nitrates); just take the hit on them chemicals.

I'm READY to shop! I do have an excellent LFS and, coincidentally, they have just rebuilt and improved their African tanks. If they don't have what I want, I am willing to purchase online.

But..., I don't exactly KNOW what I want! You're right, Dee: I am torn. I know I want shellies AND I love the COLORFUL cichlids, but have a 29 gal setup. I very slightly redesigned the tank to include a rocky/cave area on one side (1/3 or less of the tank's real estate). The remaining real estate is shells-on-sand that I expect will be re-landscaped by the shellies ;-) There are 2 taller rocks acting as dividers to create visual blockades. The upper column is completely open.

The one thing I know (I think I know) is that I need to get the whole batch of shellies at one time. (I'll get any other cichlids later.) Looking forward, I wonder this: Let's say I introduced 8 shellies at one time. Are some of those going to have to be moved to a different tank? That would present a problem  How do other folks handle that? Do many have a spare or not fully stocked tank around just waiting for overflow, whether it's about incompatible fishies or fry?

Thanks to all for your continuing suggestions and help! 
Janice
10 gal- 6 head & tail lights
29 gal- 6 black skirts, 6 rummy nose, 4 otocinclus vittatus
29 gal- in progress for shell dwellers / cichlids
55 gal- waiting to be set up for angelfish


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Glad to hear the cycle is over. Here is an article from the site about buffering your water, without prepared mixes: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/buffer_recipe.php Not sure if you should add anything to your water, except maybe to raise your kH. I'm sure Dee can advise on that further.

When buying juvenile fish, you need a plan for rehoming fish if/when it comes to it. Talk with your LFS about returning fish for credit or whatever. I have a place but it's donation only. It's always a good idea to have a temporary home for them until you can move them on, but it looks like you already have a few tanks. If you have a fish that's getting harassed and has to go, I'm sure you could place them in a breeder hang on box/net until you have a plan for rehoming.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

I think Iggy hit it right on the head with both comments. You might get lucky with the 6-8 juvies you get and they'll all get along, it really depends on the species and also how many males you may end up with. A spare tank is always nice but my spares turn into stocked tanks almost overnight it seems. It might be something to discuss with your LFS and see if they will take trade-ins and maybe offer store credit in exchange.

I suggest checking out the stock from your LFS. It can be a bit difficult to see the normal behavior of the fish in the store but it will at least give you an idea of what is available. You could also ask if they can order specific species for you from their wholesaler.

I usually get ALL my fish from local fish club meetings, auctions and special events. It's nice because you can ask other members about their personal experiences with the fish I'm interested in and you really can't beat the quality of the fish and the prices. If you haven't checked out a local fish club, check the Club section at the top of the page and see if there is one located near you.


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## jlgvusn (Aug 6, 2013)

Good morning! Fish shopping this weekend! Apparently, believe it or not, there are no active fish clubs in greater Nashville. This weekend, I'll talk to the people at my LFS in case they know of any that are not listed / advertised anywhere. Could I put cyprichromis microlepidotus sibwese in with the shell dwellers I choose? Thanks!!!


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Even the non jumbo cyps need a lot of swimming space. 4' as a minimum is recommended.


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## jlgvusn (Aug 6, 2013)

OK, so... my next thoughts on stocking are: l.multis and neolamprologus caudopunctatus. I stopped at my LFS on Saturday; unfortunately, they didn't have either of these fish; I was crushed  However, he is going to talk with his African supplier, and expects to get them for me NEXT week opcorn:

In the meantime, I am continuing to add some ammonia daily to keep the filter cycled and fed.

Two questions:
1. I suspect there will come a time when doctoring the water with various Lake T chemicals may under my skin. Now is the time to address that, BEFORE I have fish in the tank. The GH isn't as hard as I'd like it to be (7-9 degrees), but, more annoyingly, the KH, which is 6 today, consistently wants to be at 3-4 degrees. How would I correct these, but leave all other parameters alone? Would I only "dose" the water being added at a water change, or dose for the entire 29 gal volume? Or, would it best to just leave the water as is and expect the fish to acclimate to my tap water (pH 7.4; gh 6-7; kh 4; no nitrates)?

2. Should I be posting to a different forum now?

Continued thanks! Janice


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Epsom salts raise your gH. Baking soda raises your kH and also your pH. There are articles on the forum, including the one I linked earlier, that explain this. Only buffer enough for the amount of water you change. Best to start practicing now.


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## jlgvusn (Aug 6, 2013)

Thanks, Iggy, especially for the info about treating only the "new" water during a water change. I read the info in the library; I've also read a ton of other stuff across the forum about Tang water parameters, i.e., "to do or not to do." Unfortunately, I do not yet have the benefit of trial and error to guide me on this first tank. I will, though, I will 

I guess, perhaps, I asked the wrong question. Maybe the right question --and I'll post it also in the Lake T forum-- is, "Is it possible to have success --fish that are healthy, active, live long lives, have good coloration, and maybe even spawn-- with Lake T shell & rock dwellers without doctoring my tap water?"
Janice


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

> "Is it possible to have success --fish that are healthy, active, live long lives, have good coloration, and maybe even spawn-- with Lake T shell & rock dwellers without doctoring my tap water?"


Yes. Especially if they're not wild caught. But I would still ask the Tang section.


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