# Blue Jack Dempsey breeding experiences II



## ormed

OK...

I hope we've all learned that the moderater here will lock the thread without warning, so please, PM me if you are interested in the more commercial aspects of Blue Jack Dempseys and not discuss them here.

This thread will be a continuation of the thread.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... p?t=108410

That thread contains 11 pages of detailed information and photos... Enough said.

Randy









This is my #1 breeding male.









Here he is with his mate. Guarding their spawn.









Yes, they hatched.








And grew. 1"









1 1/2"


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## ormed

Back to % Blues compared to Blue genes (Regular phenotype).









TheBlues are looped in blue and the BGs in black.

It appears that I DO have 50% Blues from this spawn. I started pulling the BGs out of the tank last night and counting the BGs. As promised, I am counting them and I've taken 100 BGs out so far. There appear to be as many Blues as BGs. I'll keep this updated as I continue separating them.

Randy


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## TheFishGuy

That's awsome!


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## Guest

dude. seriously. AWEsOmE

You obviously take extremely good care of those fish- your babies grew out about as perfectly as anyone could hope- and your hatch rate was excellent.

Your adults look perfect.

I wish we could all get our fish up to that level of standard. Seriously.

A thousand hats off to you.


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## ormed

Wow, Thanks...

I spent all afternoon counting baby fish...
380 Blue Dempseys
438 Blue Gene Dempseys

So, it looks like My #1 pair IS producing about 50% Blues. This is good news! cause I thought I was getting closer to 25%, which didn't make since gentetically. Maybe the slightly lower % of Blues compared to BGs, is because they aren't quite as vigorus.

Randy


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## csriram45

Apologize if the thread got locked due my not understanding the rules right. Back on track. Awesome job. Someday when I come to SD I would love to stop by to have a look at your set Up.


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## Blackadder

Yep, it's a shame one of the best threads on any cichlid website got locked, lets hope the useful info in there doesn't get forgotten.
Great news on the % of blues Ormed, this at least gives us reason to believe we are dealing with normal recessive genetics (as far as the colour is concerned). 
Another poster (can't remember the thread) was concerned with eye defects, I have had these occur in some of my blues, it would be interesting to see if any of yours show problems as they develop. 
I must say your fry look exactly like the fry I had off Jeff Rapps, they grew up to look different to your breeding male, I wonder what your fry will look like full grown?


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## ohcustoms

ormed said:


> Wow, Thanks...
> 
> I spent all afternoon counting baby fish...
> 380 Blue Dempseys
> 438 Blue Gene Dempseys
> 
> So, it looks like My #1 pair IS producing about 50% Blues. This is good news! cause I thought I was getting closer to 25%, which didn't make since gentetically. Maybe the slightly lower % of Blues compared to BGs, is because they aren't quite as vigorus.
> 
> Randy


\

**** that's a KILLER EBJD percentage. I'm only gettting around 1/3 so far I need to post some pic's

I love your male, I keep looking for nice males around here, but, it seems like Jack's are not popular at all. I'm hoping to sell some to other stores so I don't get OVER stocked......


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## Burtle

They look very healthy and top notch condition... and blue!  
It's good to see them with bellies bigger than their heads and still look hungry. :lol:


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## ormed

Thanks,

I really put a lot into feeding and water quality, plus I think I got pretty good breeding stock to start with. I'm glad it shows 

Randy


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## Deezil

Hey man,

Have you had a chance to look into head shapes with relation to sexing? 8)

Just wonderin... Keep up the good work! :thumb:


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## ohcustoms

Have you had the problem with your JD's picking off the blue ones???? It seems to me that my pair will pick out the blue ones for snacks. I'm just curious to see if you have this problem, or, its just my pair?????

Jamie


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## Pisces1977

Ormed,

Thanks for the fish. Pictures really do not do these fish justice. They arrived today in great condition. Two of the fish have a considerable amount of blue present. Believe these two are the dominant ones. I have had them for only three hours and they are already taking well to my 55 gallon (feeding on broken up tetra cichlid sticks). I will post pics in the coming weeks of my tank setup and their progress.


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## Pisces1977

:wink: Kordon bags are one of the greatest inventions of the space program.


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## Toby_H

Pisces1977, that sucks! You have me overly excited... mine are due in first of next week~!


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## Pisces1977

Good things come to those who wait. :lol:


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## csriram45

Wow. You guys got me excited too.. Post pics soon... How many did you guys get?


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## Pisces1977

I received 5 EBJDs and some water sprites. I think that the water sprites are helping them adapt. I had red and white gravel before I decided to change to a more natural look. I did not want the all-american look. 8) the red and white was fiance's idea.


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## xXGrEeNxTeRrOrXx

:? I also seem to have an uncontrollable urge to drool... Please keep the rest of us who are unable to partake in ormeds stock :x informed and updated! BTW, good job ormed, thanks for keeping all of us up to speed. :thumb:


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## ormed

Yes,

My pair (The female is the culprit) started eating fry... I noticed it at 3 weeks. I'm not sure if she was actually targeting the Blues, or if it was because the Blues aren't nearly as fast at that age. I'm pretty sure she was eating whatever she could catch, cause I watched her.

So, I'm pulling fry at about 7-10 days now. I'll be pulling 2 spawns, one from each pair, this weekend 

Randy


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## ormed

I agree...

Kordon breathing bags are amazing. I shipped all those fish without oxygen. I just didn't feed them for about 1 1/2 days before bagging. Also, I didn't use any additives like Novaquil or bag buddies, though I'm sure they'd be helpful.

Randy


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## foo.c

I got mine as well. Awesome fish. No signs of 'depression' or whatever I hear some people describe blues with. These guys are fiesty! :thumb:

I swear two have already paired off. They are always together. It's a darker blue and a powder blue. The darker one seems more elongated. Definitely a little bigger. Possibly a male?

I haven't been able to get mine to eat much. My other fish are such pigs. LOL. I'm sure they'll learn where the food comes from soon.

I was really worried about these guys in the heat wave we're having, but they arrived perfect.


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## csriram45

Pisces: What Size tank do you have them in ? Is it the existing tank or you set up a separate one for them?

foo.c : Same question. Where are you located?


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## foo.c

csriram45 said:


> Pisces: What Size tank do you have them in ? Is it the existing tank or you set up a separate one for them?
> 
> foo.c : Same question. Where are you located?


I have 2 in a 125g that's sort of a West African biotope tank, but the conditions are similar to CA. 2 others are in a 55g planted tank.

This is temporary though. I plan on removing the best male (if I have one) and giving him a tank of his own. The others I will probably sell at our club auction or to friends.

I live in TX.


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## TheFishGuy

Nice to see you're getting 50% or close to it. Was a a nice sized spawn too. I hope pulling out the fry a little sooner works out for you, It works for me. I'm actually pulling fry from my 800 just days after they're free swimming and they're doing great. Congrats on the success, but we need more pictures man! :lol: I think a random shot of the male will do here and there and now and again


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## Pisces1977

csriram45 said:


> Pisces: What Size tank do you have them in ? Is it the existing tank or you set up a separate one for them?
> 
> foo.c : Same question. Where are you located?


Currently I have 5 EBJDs in a 55 gallon. I have another 55 gallon with 1 johanni, 1 labridoras, 2 zebras, and 1 Jack Dempsey- (believe a female- numerous spangles mouth region). I will eventually convert this tank to EBJDs. Regular Jack seems pretty docile but too large (4 ") to put with EBJDs. I will grow these little guys out for a coulpe of weeks, and then I will decide on other tanks fate. I bought frozen brine, mysis, and krill today. I will fatten these guys up.


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## csriram45

Thanks for the feedback.. hopefully I can get mine soon... keep me posted and post some pics of your EBJDs..


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## ormed

Well...I HAVE posted about 30 photos on the prior thread.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... c&&start=0

I'm not sure what more people really want to see :?: 
I'm open to suggestions.

Randy Sorenson

I like these of my 2nd pair







Natural lighting is more acurate than...







...with a flash
The fry hatched abouta week ago. I'll probably pull them this weekend.


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## csriram45

ormed said:


> Well...I HAVE posted about 30 photos on the prior thread.


ormed. Your pics are great. I was referring to Pisces and foo.c regarding the pics


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## juspot82

What's a good estimate for your total fry output Ormed? Blues and Blue genes.

400?....500?....600?

I've heard a spawing pair of dempseys can have up to 800-1000 fry in a single batch and i'm curious if the blues are putting out a similar # of eggs.


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## dogofwar

"I'll probably pull them this weekend"

Sorry if it's in the previous thread, but could you provide details of this?

- When do you pull the babies (eggs?)
- Do you put them in another tank, jar, etc.?
- How is itset up?
- Care regimen?
- Etc....

Thanks!


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## ohcustoms

My JD male is about 1 1/2 years old, the female is about a year. They still have some growing to do. Their output is gaining slowly.

They produce about 400-500 eggs, with hatching and fungus and all the stuff, i'm getting about 300-350 fry to free swimming stage. Around 300-325 to 1/4-1/2" after that, TOO MANY to count


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## ormed

All of the information you asked for IS in the prior thread, including the etc... Maybe I should write an article for Cichlid-forum in my spare time... :lol:

The last spawn I counted (last weekend) was my largest. 380 Blues, 438 BGs. That was over 800 fry. I pulled them from the breeding tank at about a week to 10 days after they are free swimming, I culled the BGs at about 4 weeks. The remaining 380 BLues are in a 10 gallon tank. I'll try to leave then there for about 4-6 weeks.

I currently have 2 spawns, about 600-800 total that are that age. I plan to seperate both pairs at the same time and condition them until September. I expect that I'll get very large spawns from both pairs after that.

My fish are ready to sell at about 1 1/4' - 1 1/2" at about 5 months old. So, I should have a bunch for sale right around Christmas time. :thumb:

Randy


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## xXGrEeNxTeRrOrXx

Merry Christmas to me?  I wish... :x BTW ormed, excellent job with the fish and posts, I have the other one bookmarked! :lol:


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## ohcustoms

I have to commend you on your technic with the JD's and I wish I could afford some of your blues, instead of doing it the hard way, as I am now. Selective breeding


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## ormed

I pulled all the fry from both pairs last night... I guess that makes me the Boogieman to my Dempseys  
It looks like about 800 between the two spawns  
This time/today, I seperated the pairs before they had a chance to spawn again. With limited space this is very tricky. I totally rearranged a 40 gal and threw all 3 adult male Blues in together (2 breeders and 1 extra). I'm counting on my #1 as dominant, to keep the other 2 males in line. I put a maze of rocks, about 50 lbs. worth in as a buffer. The females are in a growout tank, also 49 gals, with BGs I'm raising. I'm hoping to keep things calm for a month while I condition them for a September reunion.

Randy


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## ormed

ohcustoms,

Good luck with your breeding program. It has been a lot of fun and satisfying working on my own line of Blue Demseys over the past couple of years. I hope you have the same enjoyment and success and I'll be happy if my having shared my experiences here helps save you and others a little time and frustration... 

Randy Sorenson


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## ohcustoms

It has helped alot!!!!!! I appreciate you taking the time to discuss all the aspects of your breeding. I'm seriously thinking about getting 1 or 2 EBJD's from you. I'm haveing some luck, slow start you know.

I only paid $60 for my breeding pair of Jacks. I got lucky I think the person who I bought them from didn't know what they had

Thanks again

Jamie


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## ThePoliticalThinker

you already sold out? :x


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## ormed

If you are interested in purchasing fish from me, please check my Trading Post ad, and/or PM me. I don't want this thread to get locked... Like the last one 

Thanks,

Randy Sorenson


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## foo.c

I went by my LFS and they had EBJD a wee bit smaller than the ones I got from ormed. They looked identical to Ormed's but their colors were washed out. (Probably from typical LFS food and stresses.) Oh, and they were $40/each! 

I'm pretty sure they get theirs from Jeff Rapps as they're listed on his site.

Just an FYI.


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## ohcustoms

Ormed has better prices than that.


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## Deezil

Please leave anything to do with pricing out of this thread, i'd hate to see it get locked 

This is information that i havent been able to find anywhere else... i wouldnt want that information highway to get blown up, so to speak :lol:


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## ohcustoms

Deezil said:


> Please leave anything to do with pricing out of this thread, i'd hate to see it get locked
> 
> This is information that i havent been able to find anywhere else... i wouldnt want that information highway to get blown up, so to speak :lol:


I apologize for the comment :x


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## ormed

No problem at all... I mostly wanted the moderator to know that we can stay on track ourselves... :wink:

Randy


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## Toby_H

I just wanted to share with everyone that I received my Blue Dempseys from Ormedâ€¦

I accepted the deal he offers in the trading post with no changes. He shipped them out on Monday and they arrived on Wednesday. I was very surprised and impressed with how quickly they got here. I have to confess I was a little bit leery being one of his first shipping customers. But the guy obviously did his research and found a great method. Also note he shipped them from California (West Coast) to North Carolina (East Coast).

When they arrived all 5 fish were active and apparently healthy. Even after seeing so many of his pictures I was very surprised at the amount of Blue in such small fish. In the dullest fish over 50% of itâ€™s body was blue.

About 3 hours after they were put into their new home (75 gal to themselves) I watched all 5 fish eat frozen brine shrimp. This was very encouraging.

I just now got home from work and was shocked when I walked over to their tank. All 5 fish were very actively swimming around the tank and when I approached they all came to the front to â€˜check me outâ€™. I expected them to be quite shy for at least a week or so, but this doesnâ€™t at all seem to be the case.

On top of their activity, I was shocked to see that the amount and the intensity of the Blue had increased significantly. One of the fish is 100% blue except where the few black spots are. Then I noticed that 3 of the 5 already have red tipped fins! I have no doubt that these are going to grow out to be beautiful fish.

I donâ€™t mean for this to sound like a sales pitch, as this is not the purpose of this thread, but I had to brag about the beautiful new addition to my collection! Thanks Ormed!!!!!

PS - I'll post pics as soon as practical...


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## TheFishGuy

So.... Are you happy? :lol:


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## ohcustoms

LOL, as soon as I get some room in the fishroom, I'm going to get a few as well.

Thanks for posting, I live in Ohio, and I was curious about the shipping and live arrival.

Did you go priority?

Thanks

Jamie


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## stacy.duval

I also got 5 from Ormed. Priority shipping, with breather bags. It took right at 48 hours to get them from CA to Austin, TX. All fish arrived alive and looking better than most fish I bring home from the LFS. They are gorgeous, spunky and eating well. I don't know how well the breather bags would do for larger fish, as they are very thin, but for smaller fish transport, I'm sold. The fish seemed to suffer no ill effects from transport, even with priority shipping to TX, where our temps are up in the 100s every day. --Stacy


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## 2wheelsx2

Can't wait to see some pics of you EBJD's, nutcase!


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## ormed

Thanks for the kudos!

In my experiment with different sized dempseys and leaving the fish in the bags, in my hot vehicle for different lengths of time, I only really had problems once they got to sub-adult sized... 3-1/2" to 4-1/2", with 2-3x the body mass of the ones I've been shipping. They all punctured the bags and died (In my car, not during actual shipping); in fact, that's my biggest concern with these guys now, as I've shipped about 10 different groups of fish with zero losses. Fortunately, I've handled enough of them of different sizes that I have a pretty good feel for when they are too big. This spawn I've been shipping from recently has got a couple months left, where I'm OK shipping them. They should all be gone by then and I'll be shipping the next batch for a couple months after that.

Randy Sorenson


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## TheFishGuy

Congrats man, you've got beautiful fish. Someday when I'm out of debt :lol: :lol: Now that was a good one! :lol:


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## rmcder

Ormed, do all your EBDs develop that gold metallic coloring with their blue (like your alpha male)? I haven't seen a ton of EBDs, but the ones I have seen don't seem to have the same coloration.


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## ormed

He is usually solid blue w/black marbling. I think the gold color is a function of lighting, usually not visible or aparent at all except in photos. The young rarely show any trace of it.

Randy


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## Retrohwcm

Randy:

Finally!!! I just wanted to let you know that my Blue Dempseys finally had another spawn. I noticed them cleaning off the slate a couple of days ago (just like the first time) and today I came through the room and noticed that there was a mound of eggs on the slate with the female hovering over them. I will keep you informed on whether or not I have any success this time. Keep your fingers crossed!


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## ormed

That's GREAT :!:

It will be so interesting to see if they eggs from your EBJD X EBJD hatch this time, and if they do, how long the fry survive, and wouldn't it be cool if a few even grow up. the eggs usually hatch in 3 days, We'll be looking for an update around Wednesday, then the mother puts them in a little hiding place. Photos would be great.

Good luck

Randy


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## PhishPhish

I've had a regular dempsey about 10 years ago and then some blues now and they all love blood worms, will sometime eat flakes but don't care for pellets. Even as juveniles, the blues don't care for the pellets. Pellets seem the cleanest way to feed them(if the fish will eat them) - doesn't cloud the water like flakes do. Could some of you share what you've been successfully feeding your dempseys - juveniles or adults?


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## MacFish

My Blue Dempsey will eat anything I give him. I rotate a couple different flake, 4 different pellets and treat with blood worms and brine shrimp.


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## csriram45

I got my fishes yesterday from ormed and they were just as nutcase described. mine are yet to show much blue but I think over time they will. They were very active and healthy. The fishes are swimming all around the tank. I tried feeding pellets which they have not eaten. Will try to feed them frozen brine shrimp later today.....


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## Toby_H

that's odd... I have a couple dozen Apistos that are overly spoiled and have been raised on a solid frozen diet... so I decided to spoil my Blue's the same way while they are young. The Apistos fravorite food by a long shot is frozen Bloodworms but my Blues won't eat Bloodworms at all, but they gobbled up the frozen Shrimp... Then the weirdest part is they eat flakes better than they do the frozen Shrimp... I haven't tried pellets yet but probably will just to see...


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## Pisces1977

nc_nutcase said:


> that's odd... I have a couple dozen Apistos that are overly spoiled and have been raised on a solid frozen diet... so I decided to spoil my Blue's the same way while they are young. The Apistos fravorite food by a long shot is frozen Bloodworms but my Blues won't eat Bloodworms at all, but they gobbled up the frozen Shrimp... Then the weirdest part is they eat flakes better than they do the frozen Shrimp... I haven't tried pellets yet but probably will just to see...


Hey nc_nutcase! I see you finially received your fish. I have actually been having a different feeding experience with my EBJDs from Ormed. They eagerly devour frozen brine shrimp, mysis shrimp, and blood worms. I also feed them algae disks. I actually squeeze an algae disk to the side of the inside of the tank. I did not have as much success with the algae disks being just dropped in the tank. They also will eat flakes and pellets but do not seem to take a liking to frozen krill.


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## foo.c

I've been feeding mine mysis, bloodworms, and flake. They didn't eat much for the first 2-3 days, but now they are eating very well.


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## pallen81

Do people generally just keep the Blue Dempseys by themselves? ... because mine is in with silver dollars and one convict and he's by far the biggest wuss in the tank. Won't come out or eat at all. Tried brine shrimp, bloodworms, pellets, flakes... I'm worried about him!


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## MacFish

Mine is in with a small school of Lemon Tetras, Congo Tetras as well as a pair of Thoricthys Maculipinnis, a Male Honduran Red Point, and a Clown Pl*co.

He rules the tank although the HRP has started to challenge him a bit.


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## foo.c

pallen81 said:


> Do people generally just keep the Blue Dempseys by themselves? ... because mine is in with silver dollars and one convict and he's by far the biggest wuss in the tank. Won't come out or eat at all. Tried brine shrimp, bloodworms, pellets, flakes... I'm worried about him!


I have mine in "community" tanks right now and they are well behaved, but they're still pretty small. If/when they get mean I will move/seperate them.

I posted a reply in your other thread.


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## csriram45

How do you guys feed the frozen food. Just drop the cubes in the tank? I bought frozen brine shrimp but I did not see the fishes that interested. They completely ignore the pellets.... just curious if there is a way to feed the fishes that I am missing


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## pallen81

i let my frozen food thaw before I put it in the tank. They seem to prefer it when its not as cold. But yeah, I just dump it in.


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## pallen81

i let my frozen food thaw before I put it in the tank. They seem to prefer it when its not as cold. But yeah, I just dump it in.


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## MacFish

pallen81 said:


> i let my frozen food thaw before I put it in the tank. They seem to prefer it when its not as cold. But yeah, I just dump it in.


Ditto


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## csriram45

that makes sense.. but then if the food is uneaten there is no way u can remove the food correct?


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## pallen81

hopefully the fish eat it all. however, every time you feed your fish though its likely some food will escape the fish and not be eaten. thats just part of feeding them.

Vacuum your tank - should clean it up. And a bottom feeder or pleco is helpful with this. Sometimes I see a little bit of food or wafers uneaten, when I wake up in the morning my Tiger Pleco has eaten it during the night. But nothing replaces siphoning your gravel in terms of how to best clean up your tank.


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## Toby_H

With my mature Cichlids I'm very cautious with over feeding, but with my babies and young juvis I drastically understock the tanks and go ahead and slightly overfeed them to ensure everyone gets 'enough' to eat. Since the tanks are well maintained and understocked I rarely see negative effects of this.

I also highly agree with the points about bottom feeders. I plan to raise another school of Clown Loaches with my Blues when they get a little bigger and I'm more confident in their stability (3-4 inches I would guess). Now I would be afraid that the highly active loaches would scare them, but for those who are favorable to different breeds of plecos they should work well even when the Blues are very young.


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## pallen81

Any of your Blue Dempseys just sit in one tiny little corner of a cave and never move?

That's my guy. I'm seriously concerned he may die, I can't get him to come out! He doesn't look sick or starved, but he's acting so odd. I love him too. haha. But seriously! Any suggestions?


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## Toby_H

lol, and I just found my Blue's new favorite food... Convict Fry...

I just added 100+ 1-2 week old Con Fry and all 5 Blue's went crazy over them. I confirmed seeing each of the Blue's actually catch and consume 3+ fry each but by watching them for 5 minutes I would assume that each literally ate at least a dozen of them.

I may have to start farming my Con fry and raising them in a separate tank (maybe with the Blues) so that the parents will breed more frequently. If not the fry from my Breeding Apistos may be in trouble... (my Apistos breed very regularly but I just suck at keeping their tiny fry alive, so better to make them food than filter gunk...).


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## pallen81

hmmm. i def don't have any spare convict fry available...


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## Toby_H

lol, well get some!

Right after I posted I added another 75'ish fry (totaling 175'ish) and then ran some errands... well I just got home and all 5 Blue's are plumper than they've ever been and I can't find one fry left in the tank.

It's sensible that not everyone has breeding Convicts laying around but I would suspect any fry will do. Guppies are real cheap and breed real easily...

After this little experiment I will probably buy a12-18 female guppies and 3-5 males and let them do their thing. This way they will serve as 'dithers' as well as a food source...


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## pallen81

I've never bred fish before. Seems like a lot of people are doing it. I guess small guppy babies could work. However, my Blue is only like an 1.5" and he's picky as ****.

That's so awesome how well your tank setup is working out. Wish I had that happen.

What I'm seriously considering doing to save my Blue Dempsey is setting up a smaller tank just for him. I have a few spare tanks at my parents house. I think I may set one up this weekend for my guy. He's just looking terrible with my other fish. I would hope if he had his own tank he would thrive or else I'm giving up on fish forever.... jk. but I'm willing to bet you know how I feel. haha.

:thumb:


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## imusuallyuseless

Hmmm, i see quite a few people have recieved their orders, but i've yet to see any pics :-?


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## Toby_H

today has been the first time in a while that I've had ample time to play with my tanks and get pics... but now I have an algae issue so you'll have to wait for the UV light to take it's effect and clear things up enough to be photographed... you know how life is, if it's not one thing it's another............


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## foo.c

This was taken a couple hours after I put him in the tank.

Crappy pic, pretty fish:


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## imusuallyuseless

:thumb:


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## csriram45

wow.. thats a lot of blue... mine are no where close to that... they have a light shade of blue.. hopefully they will get more blue as time goes and they grow.....


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## rmcder

They DO get darker. Small ones start out kind of gold with blue trim, and the dominent one(s) later go to a really dark blue with what looks like black mottling (I think it's really dark blue). Submissives tend to be silvery with blue mottling.


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## Pisces1977

eating algae disk stuck to glass









number 75-the seven even has the european slash


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## ormed

The darker the substrate, and the more shelter/rocks and floating plants, the darker they seem to be. All of the blues you guys have bought from me have been from the same tank and the same spawn.
I have noticed that when I've had them in a tank without gravel, or with less than clear water, they get listless for a couple of days after I optimise their conditions. I guess that this means that Blue Dempseys ARE sensitive. 
Setting tanks up for my fish caretaker before I go on vacation next week, I've put all of my Blue Genes together in one tank. Now it's plain to see that the Blue Genes, which are like regular Dempseys are MUCH more aggressive than blues. And, they eat 2-3X as much food while they are growing (Like untill they are more than 1 year old) than Blues. I never have to worry about extra/leftover food in the tank of the BGs, but I allways have to worry about it/remove it with the Blues.

Randy

Also, I love seeing the photos you're taking...


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## imusuallyuseless

> Setting tanks up for my fish caretaker before I go on vacation next week


Is the fish caretaker me???


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## rmcder

imusuallyuseless said:


> Setting tanks up for my fish caretaker before I go on vacation next week
> 
> 
> 
> Is the fish caretaker me???
Click to expand...

Wow! Long distance caretaking?!


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## rmcder

ormed said:


> The darker the substrate, and the more shelter/rocks and floating plants, the darker they seem to be.


 I'm using sand (tan) with no floating plants, and if my ebjd's got any darker, they'd be shadows! 

Oh, Ormed, remember awhile back I mentioned that my dominant was dark, but the submissive was silvery? Well, they are now in separate tanks and both are equally dark.


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## TheFishGuy

Be carefull with how much fry you feed your fish, they will not stop eating them and could possibly kill them selves....


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## ormed

Cool, that your Blues are so dark with light sand. They must be very happy 

The pH in my tanks is low for Dempseys at 7.2 
What's the pH in your tanks rmcder?
My hardiest Blues will eat themselves to bloat, especially from about 6 months to a year old, which is about the age of the ones I've been shipping to you guys lately. In fact, over the past few days as I've been trying to figure out the maximum amount to feed my Blues for a once per day feeding, One of the biggest ones I have left just over ate brine shrimp, has bloated and will likely die 

Randy


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## Toby_H

I finally took some pics of my Blues... This is the only one I got that wasn't blurred out. These guys are very hyper active... it must be all the Convict fry


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## csriram45

Nice pics... mine are still not completely blue.... and they dont seem to show much interest in any food...... although I have continued to feed them frozen brine shrimp....


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## Toby_H

With the exception of fry mine don't eat 'good' compared to most of my other fish, but at the same time they eat enough to keep themselves from looking skinny. Have yours (csriram45) been eating at all? Do they look unhealthily thin?


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## csriram45

Yes... mine done seem to eat that well... I am not sure what I am doing wrong. They do seem thin but i dont know what they look like normally..... I just dont want to over feed and have my tank left over with uneaten food which I would stuggle to remove later...... If only they did show some interest in any one kind of food I would be more than happy to provide them that........


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## stacy.duval

I feed mine Tetra tropical crisps, and they like it just fine. They eat everything I give them. I do throw in the occasional frozen mysis, though.


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## pallen81

Do you have your Blue Dempseys in a species tank or in a cichlid community tank?

I think I may have made a fatal error putting my blue dempsey in a community tank... he's a freakin' major wuss... to death... literally.


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## stacy.duval

They're just babies, so they (5) are in a tank by themselves. I think the rest of my CA & SA fish would kick their butts at this point.


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## pallen81

hmmm. good idea keeping them alone. I had my 1.5" blue dempsey in with an equally small convict, 2 large silver dollars and a small tiger pleco. He didn't do well at all. I don't think they are very good community fish. I knew they weren't as aggressive as regular JD's, but man, I thought he could hold his own against these fish. wrong...


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## foo.c

Mine are in community tanks and I haven't had a problem. How big is your tank?

I have 3 EBJD's in a 55 planted tank with other assorted fish, snails, and shrimp. They are doing just fine. They come up to me to be fed and I have one who follows me around whenever I come near.

I'll move them when they get bigger, but right now my biggest one is about 2". Maybe a little bigger.


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## pallen81

55 gallon tank. this EBJD was a wuss from the start. too bad he was the most beautiful fish I had.

I'm glad you are having success!! that's really awesome. I had a nightmare, don't want to see a EBJD for a while. I feel so bad about it.

if I ever get them again... I'll buy a few and put them in a species only tank.


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## imusuallyuseless

I suppose it depends on what your idea of a 'community tank' is.


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## csriram45

Ok I am worried.... I dont see them eat at all.. and looking at the post by pallen81, I am worried... Its only been a week since I got them.... They are in a 40 gallon all by themselves...... but I never seem them eager to eat.... any chance they would have parasites already?


----------



## pallen81

hi there, my little guy just died. But you have hope man!

I would get a bottle of parasite medicine just in case even if you don't see any signs of a disease. I wish I had an emergency bottle. I probably would have saved him. Look for signs of stringy white feces, thats an internal parasite and that is what got my dude I think.

The only thing my guy would eat is Prime Cichlid baby pellets. give that a try. Just keep a close eye on them.


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## csriram45

Sorry to hear about your loss man... I am just super worried now... I will need to go home and check....


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## foo.c

csriram45 said:


> Ok I am worried.... I dont see them eat at all.. and looking at the post by pallen81, I am worried... Its only been a week since I got them.... They are in a 40 gallon all by themselves...... but I never seem them eager to eat.... any chance they would have parasites already?


Was there anything in there before them? I wouldn't think they have infections, but I guess it's possible.

What's your tank like? If they're completely exposed without any hiding spots they could just be nervous. My tanks have lots of driftwood and plants and dithers and they're acting and eating like normal fish.


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## csriram45

No.. I had this tank since christmas but had not set it up... it was only after I read randys thread that I got interested in the EBJDs and decided to get some and set up the tank... Initially when I put them in there was not much of hiding place.. over the weekend I added lots of plants and drift wood and hiding place..... One thing is that the tank is in my living room and hence there is always light on.........

as I said.. they seem fine.. but I have been concerned with their lack of appetite.. I thought they are adjusting and soon they will start eating.... but i prefer to be on the side of caution....... I will observe them more closely tonite..... for any symptoms and signs... I also am was planning on doing a regular water change today ..... so it could be multiple factors....


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## AJ III

If your fish is not eating, acting lethargic, trying to eat food but spitting it out, hiding, has white stringy poop, "coughing" please treat them for internal parasites, aka bloat. I learned that the hard way. I had two juvie blue dempseys and lost one to the same symptoms I keep seeing posted here and on other threads. When my second started show the same symptoms so I posted online, got advice, and treated him. He is now doing great!  Although I wish I wouldn't have lost the first. It was an expensive lesson.

I treated with Parasite Clear by Jungle and with CLOUT.

Please don't wait until it is to late to treat your blue jacks. When they get stressed it can cause bloat.


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## csriram45

Ok i think I have confirmed that they are suffering from parasites...now the question is what do I treat with..... so the jungle parasite cleaner and clout should do? I have moved by EBJDs to a hospital tank and addede the Jungle Parasite Cleaner. I dont have Clout. Where can I find it locally? Do most pet shops carry it. Is clout better than the Jungle variety?


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## csriram45

Update: So I called few lfs and now I have Clout as well as PraziPro.... Which would be a better treatment to give? Clout seems to have been proven succesful but is very harsh and kills everything.. PraziPro I guess is new but seem also to be effective.... Any ideas on which is better? I will start treating them after I go home today.....

Meanwhile what should I do with my main tank? I guess I will need to treat the main tank too..... I guess I can give the PraziPro treatment to main tank as well.... I presume with PraziPro I must remove the Carbon as well??


----------



## csriram45

Further update on EBJDs health is in the thread below. Once ormed is back I am sure this thread will continue and I thought it would be good for people who need help to have a reference so that they can try various options incase their EBJDs fall sick

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=13


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## foo.c

So any other people having problems?

If you had problems what were your water parameters like?

I honestly am not doing anything special (weekly water changes, and basic care) with my blues and they seem pretty robust. Maybe it's luck of the draw.

I have one guy that is so bold he follows me around the tank while I'm doing maintence nipping at the scraper and expecting a hand out.

This is him soon after I got him:









And this is him about a month later (really crappy pic, but you can see the color change):









This pic doesn't do him justice though. I've named him "Deep Blue", perhaps he'll be a chess champion.  (Reference to IBM's chess-playing super computer of the same name.)


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## stacy.duval

Wow! Nice. All 5 of mine are doing fine. Their colors have not done that, but they appear to be healthy. They all eat, beg for handouts, not shy or skittish. What do you feed? Our water quality should be fairly similar, so what's the difference? I want mine to look like that! I may need to step up the water changes a little, but once every 1.5 weeks isn't too bad. How are they growing?


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## foo.c

stacy.duval said:


> Wow! Nice. All 5 of mine are doing fine. Their colors have not done that, but they appear to be healthy. They all eat, beg for handouts, not shy or skittish. What do you feed? Our water quality should be fairly similar, so what's the difference? I want mine to look like that! I may need to step up the water changes a little, but once every 1.5 weeks isn't too bad. How are they growing?


Feeding 1 is TetraMin flakes, it's not really for them but for all the dithers. They'll eat a few flakes sometimes.

Next is frozen mysis. Definitely their favorite.

Last feeding is frozen bloodworms.

As for the color, I think it's a dominance thing. I haven't gotten 2 dark blue fish in the same tank yet. Also they seem to do better in planted tanks.

"Deep Blue" is probably close to 3" so he's grown a lot (he was the biggest of the bunch to start with). The others are more like 2-2.5".


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## csriram45

Wow... those fishes are awesome. I guess it was really a case of bad luck with regards to mine..... seems like something stressed them out and then it passed on from one to another..... How big are your tanks and are they just by themselves or do they have other fishes?

"Deep Blue" is awesome. So did u get them from ormed as well??

****... i really feel I missed out on such nice fish... but I dont have the strength or the guts to try them again.....


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## foo.c

csriram45 said:


> Wow... those fishes are awesome. I guess it was really a case of bad luck with regards to mine..... seems like something stressed them out and then it passed on from one to another..... How big are your tanks and are they just by themselves or do they have other fishes?
> 
> "Deep Blue" is awesome. So did u get them from ormed as well??
> 
> darn... i really feel I missed out on such nice fish... but I dont have the strength or the guts to try them again.....


Deep Blue is in a 55g tank with 2 other EBJD (all my EBJD are from ormed). The tank is a planted tank with mostly livebearers and tetras, and quite a few red cherry shrimp.

They seem to like planted tanks. Don't know if its the plants keeping the water cleaner or just the extra cover.

Here's a pic of my tank, it's not one of those well manicured masterpieces but the fish seem to like it:


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## pallen81

Nice setup for them. I see why they are excelling.

My blue dempsey was super bright blue as well. Too bad he died after a few weeks. Looking at pictures and posts of your success with BJDs makes me jealous.


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## rmcder

As near as I've been able to see, the dominant fish will get really dark blue, and the others will be more of a silvery blue. I've now got my two separated and they are both a deep blue. Your shot came out well, as soon as I use a flash, it washes out the blue and I get gold coming through. I've yet to get a photo that looks the way the fish looks to the eye (which is like your shot). Maybe without the flash...


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## foo.c

rmcder said:


> I've yet to get a photo that looks the way the fish looks to the eye (which is like your shot). Maybe without the flash...


Yeah, I have noticed the same thing when using the flash. My tank is pretty well lit so I can get a pic without the flash.

I wish I had a decent camera. With my digital you click the button and then wait ... so unless the fish is very still you get blur. I've taken pics of my mbuna tank and all you see is yellow and blue streaks. LOL.


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## Fh_N00B

Does anybody know if I can keep 3 in a 60 gallon tank?
I've been reading about peoples ebjd having eating disorders is that common?
What specific things do I have to do to keep these guys?
Any tank mates?
Any info about them would be helpfull.

I was looking to buy one of ormed's ebjd.


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## rmcder

Fh_N00B said:


> Does anybody know if I can keep 3 in a 60 gallon tank?


Dimensions? I'd be a little concerned with a 75g, so I'd have to say no unless you're very lucky with temperament.



Fh_N00B said:


> I've been reading about peoples ebjd having eating disorders is that common?
> What specific things do I have to do to keep these guys?


I don't think it's so much eating disorders as weak constitutions. Not eating is a symptom of them not doing well.



Fh_N00B said:


> Any tank mates?
> Any info about them would be helpfull.
> I was looking to buy one of ormed's ebjd.


They seem to be getting along ok with a wide variety of fish in my tanks - barbs, clown loaches, nic, rainbow, firemouth, gt, spinosisimus, T. sp. mixteco, honduran red points, severum. Won't really know until they get big enough to try to dominant the tank, but so far no problems. I think the consensus is that they are less aggressive and more fragile than "normal" jds. It is also thought that they may not grow as big, but this may simply reflect their tendency to die before they get a chance to GET big. If you get them when they are bigger than 3 inches, you have a much better chance of them surviving. If I were you, I'd hang on a bit and let Ormed know that you'd like 3" size or larger fish (I figure SOME of them are going to grow out before he sells them all). You might also want to get more than one in the hope that one survives (and any more that survive you can probably sell easily enough - I have two surviving and I may eventually sell one of them).


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## foo.c

I had one of my blues die last night.

He had colored up a little bit, and I noticed he and Deep Blue were posturing some. I wonder if Deep Blue killed him?

I hadn't observed any illness prior to the fish dying, and all my blues eat well. So if it wasn't violence, I have no idea.


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## stacy.duval

That's strange. Me too. Got up this morning and one was dead. Don't know why. They are all eating, and acting fine. He was a little beat up, but not sure if this occurred post-mortem or if it was the cause. Weird.


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## Fh_N00B

Well I just recieved a email form ormed and he said that I could keep as many as 12-14 in my 60 gal for about a 10 months or so. How much would one cost at 10 months old? Maybe I'll buy 12 and let them grow and sell them so that the others can grow out full size.


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## csriram45

Well We have all the same idea as I dont think we can keep 5 EBJDs when they are full size but once they grow keep one or 2 and sell the others...

Sorry to note of your losses.. That is surprising that both ur fishes died suddenly......


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## ormed

Hi all,

I'm back after 2 weeks of fun in the sun, on the rivers of WA, fishing, hiking and white water rafting  
Sorry to hear about the losses. I had someone who is totlly inexperienced taking care of my fish while I was gone and found about 8 dead Blue Dempseys at varying stages of decomposition tangled amongs the plants. Here's my observation.

Before I left, I put several BGJDs in each tank to improve the chances of all the food being eaten... No matter how strongly I emphasize it, people just can't resist over feeding fish. I guess it's because they allways rush to the front of the tank acting like they haven't eaten for a week :? 
Anyway, all of the dead fish were from the tank with the fewest BGs. The BGs are looking well, if not over fed, and the EBJDs are looking like they stopped eating. Like I've said before, water quality is imparitive... If they don't eat it in 5 minutes, take it ALL out of the tank. I think it's best to give them a little bit at a time in portions that they actually eat in 1-2 minutes. Then feed them again in 10-60 minutes (Or not). They seem to eat more this way. I've never fed my Blues blood worms... because there is OFTEN high levels of bacteria and parasites in them. I have lost a lot of very nice and potencially expensive bettas to frozen bloodworms in the past by leaving 3 or less in the water for a day. once the fish are infected with whatever it is... bacteria or parasite.... their poop gets stringy, they stop eating and they eventually die. I'm talking about having lost around 100 bettas this way. It nearly allways happened to the exprensive males with heavy finnage; the female bettas are hardier than the males. Just like the BGs are hardier than the Blues.
To clarify, I think that the EBJDs are/were MUCH more sensitive to water quality as it went down due to leftover food (The BGs were completely unafected). Maybe an option would be to NOT feed live or frozen foods to the Blues. I'm not willing to do this myself, but I think they could be raised to maturity this way and then fed frozen and live food to condition for breeding.

This morning I did a 25% water change and I'll do another 25% tonight and again 2-3 times by Sunday. BTW The plants in all of my tanks grew like weeds! More evidence of reduced water quality while I was gone... I don't know, but maybe a tank full of plant makes an even bigger difference as a water quality buffer than I even realized before, and I've allways been sure that it has played a valuable roll as a buffer.
My tank with nothing but BG's, including my 2 spawning females, was in great condition with the worst filtration. The females look fat and healthy and ready for the spawning tanks.
In conclusion, without seeing other peoples tanks, I have a suspition that most of the problems out there have to do with water quality; if not due to overfeeding/leftover food being left in the tanks, then maybe local/municipal water quality. I do run all of my water through a high quality water purifier. Here's what I use.
http://aquasanausa.com/index.htm
San Diego water isn't fit to drink... I use the shower filter from Aquasana. I take the shower head off and slip a 3/4" 8' hose to the connection and fill 5 gallon buckets and/or bottles with the purified water. It's easy, quick, and better for my fish than R.O. water cause the pH is higher, though only 7.2

Randy

Also, I won't be shipping any of the bigger Blues for at least a week until I'm confident that they are all eating well and healthy again (They are 2-2 1/2" and over 6 months old now), but the next spawn is 1 1/2" and ready to ship. I'll post on trading post in the next couple of days so, if anyone's interested, PM me or respond to my trading Post ad.


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## csriram45

Randy,

Welcome back. Sorry to hear about your losses. It was very disheartening to lose mine. Inspite of all the care and regular water changes I guess once they fall sick they just dont recover.

How do you feed your fishes? I ask this because you mention about removing the left over food. This is only possible if you have a bare bottom tank or if you feed the fishes in a bowl etc. Otherwise the food is just going to mix at the bottom of the gravel etc. So are you suggesting that a bare bottom tank is better?


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## ormed

I just thought that I would mention here and respond to Fh_N00B that though you can rear a dozen or more Blues together in a 60 gallon tank, you have to consider how much time and effort you are willing to put into maintaining water quality and what the big picture is for you. I personally think that 4-6 fish is plenty for a display tank or to start a breeding program. As I look at my space restrictions/limits, I'm thinkig that 2 breeding pair might be too much for what I want to do, other than to give each pair a rest of a couple months between spawns. 
Also, since I noticed Fh_N00B is in San Diego, if he ? PMs me before school starts up next week, I'd welcome another visitor.

Randy


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## Lancerlot

If you selling some electric blues all buy a few?


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## ormed

I feed them 2-3 times per day. Until they are about 70% full. Basically, they are still pretty eager to eat when I stop feeding them each time, but they have all got to eat.

Randy


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## ormed

I want to post my thoughts concerning theBlue Dempsey's digestive system, so...

Frankly, I have always been pretty anal about water quality, so I've seldom had problems with infections or disease with my fish. Consequently, I'm not as up on them as many other people. I am a good observer though.

I currently have one, possibly two tanks that contracted what is likely an intestinal parasite right now. I wish I had a microscope to confirm. I'm not selling any fish from any of my tanks until I'm sure it's gone. I have ordered meds, which should arrive early next week. My fish were all very healthy before I went out of town, so I beleive that the problem is related to my freind's feeding my fish. There was uneaten food decaying on the bottom of the tank when I got home....Argh!  
The bright side of this is that I get to :roll: observe their recoverly as I treat them.
It's very interesting to note that none of the BGJDs have the problem, In fact they are healthier and doing better than ever, I suspect because they had so much food while I was out of town. I think that the Blue Dempseys"digestive system" must be significantly more sensitive and suceptible to parasites and who knows what else, than most other fish. I would love to view them under a microscope during developement and possibly determine what exactly the problem is. I think it's related to overfeeding and the resultant fouling of the water. I'm not sure if, in fact I doubt that, it's the type of food. but I suspect that it's something that naturally exists in the aquarium water and flourishes when excess food accumilates.
My treatment so far has been one treatment with an antibacterial herbal tea. It also has a calming affect on the fish and they seem to be doing better, but a few fish still don't appear to be eating. I probably lost 50% of the Blue Dempseys in that tank (About 10 fish). I've cut their food down to where they are still eating eagerly when I stop feeding them and I'm feeding them twice per day. 
I plan to treat all my tanks with Metronidazole for internal parasites as well as treat their food with Ultra Cure PX, which is just another form of the same med., just a way to get it directly into their gut.

I'd be interested to hear anyones thoughts abaout this treatment plan, or other methods you've used sucessfully.

Randy Sorenson


----------



## ormed

I want to post my thoughts concerning theBlue Dempsey's digestive system, so...

Frankly, I have always been pretty anal about water quality, so I've seldom had problems with infections or disease with my fish. Consequently, I'm not as up on them as many other people. I am a good observer though.

I currently have one, possibly two tanks that contracted what is likely an intestinal parasite right now. I wish I had a microscope to confirm. I'm not selling any fish from any of my tanks until I'm sure it's gone. I have ordered meds, which should arrive early next week. My fish were all very healthy before I went out of town, so I beleive that the problem is related to my freind's feeding my fish. There was uneaten food decaying on the bottom of the tank when I got home....Argh!  
The bright side of this is that I get to :roll: observe their recoverly as I treat them.
It's very interesting to note that none of the BGJDs have the problem, In fact they are healthier and doing better than ever, I suspect because they had so much food while I was out of town. I think that the Blue Dempseys"digestive system" must be significantly more sensitive and suceptible to parasites and who knows what else, than most other fish. I would love to view them under a microscope during developement and possibly determine what exactly the problem is. I think it's related to overfeeding and the resultant fouling of the water. I'm not sure if, in fact I doubt that, it's the type of food. but I suspect that it's something that naturally exists in the aquarium water and flourishes when excess food accumilates.
My treatment so far has been one treatment with an antibacterial herbal tea. It also has a calming affect on the fish and they seem to be doing better, but a few fish still don't appear to be eating. I probably lost 50% of the Blue Dempseys in that tank (About 10 fish). I've cut their food down to where they are still eating eagerly when I stop feeding them and I'm feeding them twice per day. 
I plan to treat all my tanks with Metronidazole for internal parasites as well as treat their food with Ultra Cure PX, which is just another form of the same med., just a way to get it directly into their gut.

I'd be interested to hear anyones thoughts abaout this treatment plan, or other methods you've used sucessfully.

Randy Sorenson


----------



## ormed

I want to post my thoughts concerning theBlue Dempsey's digestive system, so...

Frankly, I have always been pretty anal about water quality, so I've seldom had problems with infections or disease with my fish. Consequently, I'm not as up on them as many other people. I am a good observer though.

I currently have one, possibly two tanks that contracted what is likely an intestinal parasite right now. I wish I had a microscope to confirm. I'm not selling any fish from any of my tanks until I'm sure it's gone. I have ordered meds, which should arrive early next week. My fish were all very healthy before I went out of town, so I beleive that the problem is related to my freind's feeding my fish. There was uneaten food decaying on the bottom of the tank when I got home....Argh!  
The bright side of this is that I get to :roll: observe their recoverly as I treat them.
It's very interesting to note that none of the BGJDs have the problem, In fact they are healthier and doing better than ever, I suspect because they had so much food while I was out of town. I think that the Blue Dempseys"digestive system" must be significantly more sensitive and suceptible to parasites and who knows what else, than most other fish. I would love to view them under a microscope during developement and possibly determine what exactly the problem is. I think it's related to overfeeding and the resultant fouling of the water. I'm not sure if, in fact I doubt that, it's the type of food. but I suspect that it's something that naturally exists in the aquarium water and flourishes when excess food accumilates.
My treatment so far has been one treatment with an antibacterial herbal tea. It also has a calming affect on the fish and they seem to be doing better, but a few fish still don't appear to be eating. I probably lost 50% of the Blue Dempseys in that tank (About 10 fish). I've cut their food down to where they are still eating eagerly when I stop feeding them and I'm feeding them twice per day. 
I plan to treat all my tanks with Metronidazole for internal parasites as well as treat their food with Ultra Cure PX, which is just another form of the same med., just a way to get it directly into their gut.

I'd be interested to hear anyones thoughts abaout this treatment plan, or other methods you've used sucessfully.

Randy Sorenson


----------



## Deezil

I just recently went through an internal scare myself with my 3 blue dempseys.. i treated the tank with melafix... they were better in a couple days.. the more i think about it (and the thought of keeping a journal), i think its possible it could have been from overfeeding - they were "eating" a lot of it, but i noticed they were being unnaturally messy and were sifting it out through their gills.. not sure if i would say they had parasites, but they definitely werent normal... melafix fixed it..

good luck with your recovery...


----------



## ormed

Well, I finally got meds in the mail and will start treating my tanks. It appears that my tanks with the two oldest groups of fish. still none of the Blue Gene Dempseys have been affected, nor my Albino long-finned Plecos, or even a betta in the tank.

Melafix???? Intersting... So, the primary ingredient is Tea Tree oil. Maybe I should try it.

Randy


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## rmcder

I recently lost the larger of my two surviving fish (about 5"). Thought I'd gotten past the worst of it when he got above 3". Stopped eating and hid in one place. I pulled him out after two days and put him in a treatment tank. Used PraziPro and later melafix. He lasted about four more days and died. One fish left out of the three.

Note: These were fish from Jeff Rapps, but good stock nonetheless. These guys just seem to be fragile and perhaps you HAVE to be anal about water changes, etc, to keep them alive.


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## ormed

I have heard about their digestive weakness and now I'm a true believer! I have allways been anal about water quality and seldom have had fish health problems in the past, but having someone overfeed my fish for two week, then seeing then die off the way they have is pretty amazing. Especially considering none of my other fish were affected.
They are finally begining to improve and starting to eat a little more since I started treating them. 
They can just be such eager eaters at times that there may be a temptation to overfeed. Cause sometimes they don't really eat much at all :? 
I think it's better to err on the side of under feeding them.

Randy


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## ormed

A simple posible solution to fouling the water would be to throw a few bottom feeders in the tank to eat the excess food.

It could be that easy :roll:

Randy


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## rmcder

ormed said:


> A simple posible solution to fouling the water would be to throw a few bottom feeders in the tank to eat the excess food.
> 
> It could be that easy :roll:
> 
> Randy


My fish are not overfed, and I have three large clown loaches vacuuming up the bottom at all times. It ain't that simple imo.


----------



## ormed

What do you think happened to yours? What size tank were they in? How many, and what kinds of other fish were in the tank? Were they under pressure? What do you feed them? Were they good eaters before they died?

I didn't lose any of the fish I started with. I threw four 1 1/2" Blue Dempseys in a 40 Gallon tank and fed them as much as they would eat. Their only tank mates were three 4"plecos. I did water changes about every other week and I had a thick layer of Watersprite plants in the tank. I use a Fluval 304 for filtration.

Randy


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## rmcder

This last batch (of three) were about 2" when I got them. They were in a 40g tank with some small barbs and a couple clown loaches. All three were active and eating well. Within a month, one just stopped eating and was dead within a couple days thereafter. The other two continued to prosper. One grew much faster than the other and was obviously more rugged looking. When they passed the 3.5-4" size, I moved them to the 75g tank with an assortment of (relatively) small and mild cichlids (sev, fm, honduran, mixteco). They were accepted pretty much right away and not bothered at all. After about a week, it bacame obvious that the larger one was harrassing the smaller one, so I put the smaller one back in the 40, which now housed a rainbow, a small honduran, and a spino. The larger one continued to grow and was about 5-5.5" when it died. It was actively eating and swimming right up to the first day that it showed no interest in eating (like flipping a switch). It lasted maybe a week and a half after that. The smaller one is still with me and continues to be doing ok. They are fed a rotation of nls, hikari, and tetra granules. I change 25% of the water weekly in all my tanks. pH is kept stable around 6.8-7. I'm keeping nine different cichlid species, two species of barb, and clown loaches (which are sensitive to water problems). Nothing else has ever died on me. Right now I'm 3 out of 4 on ebjds, and I STILL have no idea what is taking them down!


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## ormed

I've been very busy with school that I haven't been on here for a while.

It seems that the problems with the EBJDs is somewhat of a mystery... 
My fish have pretty much stopped dying and are gaining their mass back. I think there may be a delicate balance between overfeeding and underfeeding while insuring all of my young fish get enough/something to eat. As I've strived to acheive this balance, my young fish have begun to recover slowly.

Randy

FYI: For those of you who have asked in the past about the Watersprite plants I use and where you can purchase them... There is an auction for a bunch that ends tonight at:
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/ ... 1159761626


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## ormed

I got this great idea concerning this digestive thing and started a new thread...
"Blue Dempseys - Solution to digestive disorder death???"

Randy


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## ormed

Here's a link to an auction for Blue Gene Jack Dempseys...

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/ ... 1160964387

Randy


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## MacFish

I wish you shipped to Canada :-(


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## ormed

I put one of my pairs (#2) together about a week ago. Eggs hatched today. I think that I will only try to rear the largest, most robust 100 fry from about 6 weeks and see what happens. It should make it easier to keep their water clean and easier to make sure that all the fry get plenty of food.


















This is the pair... They are unrelated as far as my breeding program. I plan to put them up for auction in the next month, after I remove their fry and condition them again.

Randy


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## ormed

I've got free swimming fry! First new spawn in 3 months. I'll try to post a photo of the new guys soon.

Randy


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## imusuallyuseless

:thumb:


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## ormed

Here's a poor quality photo, but it shows how sometimes, like when their fry first become fry swimming, the male turns almost completely black. These fry became free swimminf yesterday.
This is my #2 pair's most recent spawn. I'll be selling this pair in about a month. They are unrelated as far as I know.
Interesting note. I haven't done a water change in this tank for a month...  









Randy


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## ormed

YES...

He's the same fish as in the photos above.


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## Pollution

ormed said:


> YES...
> 
> He's the same fish as in the photos above.


i still like your number 1 blue better. who knows maybe by xmas i can treat my self with a "big" tank and get some of his babies (if not get some upgrades for my car)


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## ormed

Do you mean this guy? I need to take a new photo of him He's nearly 9" now and has the best disposition of any Dempsey I've owned or seen. I recently threw about 20 young BGJDs into his tank as feeders. Now he's feeding them at 3/4 - 1". He is also tollerant of other adult males as long as they know their place... below him. 
Now his mate, who I just put back in the tank this morning after about a 3 month break is different. She a nasty, aggressive *^)(@$% :!: I suspect that the peace will end in that tank very soon.










Randy


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## Pollution

ormed said:


> Do you mean this guy?
> 
> Randy


Yes this guy is awsome. I hope I can figure something out by christmas. I just wish money grew on trees :lol: but ya take some new pictures of him please


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## thecichlidguy

ok i searched all the posts in both threads and i didnt find anywhere where anyone asked about BGJDxBGJD what % if any EBJD's should be in the resulting fry from a pair of two blue gene jack dempsey's?


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## rmcder

thecichlidguy said:


> ok i searched all the posts in both threads and i didnt find anywhere where anyone asked about BGJDxBGJD what % if any EBJD's should be in the resulting fry from a pair of two blue gene jack dempsey's?


Should be 25%... BbxBb yields 25% BB (normal), 50% Bb (blue gene), and 25% bb (electric blue).


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## csriram45

The drawback would be that you wont be able to differentiate between the regular JD and BGJD or is there a way?


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## ormed

And why spwn for 25% blue when you can produce 50%...
Unless somehow the fry were stronger somehow... :idea: very intriguing
Might be worth a try for someone with the extra tank space.


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## thecichlidguy

this is true....id probably destroy any of them that werent EBJD's anyway so i dont think id need to be able to tell the diff. i asked that because having 25% of your fry be EBJD's is better than spending countless dollars trying to raise an EBJD to adulthood, failing, and having to spend more money on EBJD's to start over with again and hope that it doesnt keep happening to the tune of hundreds of dollars and still no EBJD's.(25% of 600 is still 150) then if you keep 2 pairs youve got 300 EBJD fry and alot less headaches(as i have heard that even adult EBJD's can still be very vulnerable) and maybe even a stronger strain of EBJD for your efforts. who knows maybe something like that is the key to stronger ones, though i am by no means a genetasist.


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## thecichlidguy

i think that i will be giving that a try myself ormed since i appear to have the worst luck regarding the raising of EBJD's to adulthood. wait a minute....do you suppose that taking the regular JD's from the tank to make it less crowded for the EBJD's is the reason for mine having aparently just lost all interest in anything? i mean these guys(one of them i think was getting sick anyway) dominated the whole tank and forced the regulars into hiding, but right after i removed the regulars they(both of them) just stopped eating and went into hiding themselves. i have them in a hospital tank and i am treating them with maracyn-two just to be sure. but if i lose these ones i think that i will set my spending limit at the 280 bucks *** spent on the five *** bought and just raise up and pair off the BGJD's


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## thecichlidguy

that 280 bucks doesnt include the cost of BGJD's or the meds that you have to practically keep in the tank with your EBJD 24/7


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## ormed

I had a larger male BGJD in a tank w/ some smaller BGJDs for a while. When I removed the smaller fish the bigger male acted depressed... withdrawn, lost interest in food and didn't swim around much. So, I put acouple smaller ones back in with him and he perked up immediately.
You could save at least a couple of years by buying a mated pair...  
I just put my unrelated pair on AquaBid
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/ ... 1162172588


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## ormed

Well...

It looks like I'll be getting out of the EBJD breeding program for a while. The lady I've been taking care of has decided all of the sudden that her water bill is too high??? It's gone up by about $7.00/month??? Of course I offered to pay the difference, but I don't think she's giving me the straight story. Maybe at 92 yrs old, she doesn't know the real story :-? 
Anyway, I've allready sold everything except a few BGJDs and I expect they will be gone in a couple of weeks.

It's been fun and I think I'll be writing an article after the first of the year. I'll also be around to contribute and answer any questions as some of you guys work on your own breeding program.
Oh ya... I will be keeping one EBJD that is about 40% GOLD and the rest Blue w/o any black at all :thumb:

Randy


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## MacFish

Thanks very much for the info you have provided. We all know a little more thanks to you 

Any pics of the Gold one?? Would love to see it.


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## ormed

I've enjoy contributing and look forward to a few of you guys producing some nice lines of EBJDs of your own with my stock... 

I'll see if I can get a photo or two of the Gold/Blue next week after the dust settles. He's only about 1-1/4" right now.

Randy


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## Bluekiller82

It has been a pleasure reading all your posts and viewing your pics. Thanks.


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## Blackadder

Thanks Randy, and well done !!! Lets hope there's other successes with the offspring you've distributed ! Don't stay out of the 'business' too long, we'll miss the reading :wink: .


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## ormed

Thanks!

I heard from the guy in Portland, OR area the other day who bought the pair I auctioned on AquaBid that the pair he got from me has already spawned and that he has wigglers. And I'll be delivering my #1 pair to an active hobbyist/reseller/breeder here in San Diego today. So, if they are good husbandmen, there should be some nice fish available by Spring 2007.

Randy


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## ormed

In case anyone's interested. The guy I sold one of my breeding pairs to in Oregon is auctioning his first batch on AquaBid.
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/ ... 1172620739
With 3 days to go the bid is still very reasonable. And for those of you who it makes a difference to... The parents of these fry aren't related.

Randy


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## ormed

Hi all...

I keep getting emails asking about my experience breeding EBJDs, so I'm pulling this thread back up for the benefit of those who may be new. I have been busy with school, I'll be finished in JUNE :!:    . I'm on break till 5/1, so I have a little time to make a few posts. I've also been posting occasionally at a new forum dedicated to EBJDs. http://bluejax.co.uk/default.aspx

So... I sold all of my pairs of EBJDs x BGJDs in preparation for my move back to Utah in August, but I kept 10 BGJDs and 2 EBJDs for future breeding. I hand selected all of these from two different blood lines I had. I thought I'd try BGJD x BGJD to see if there is any difference in vitality, or ??? Plus, the BGJDs are much easier (Like regular Dempseys) to raise and keep.

Genetically we know that this combination should produce 25% EBJD, 25% JD, and 50% BGJD. That means from a spawn of 600, I should get 150 EBJDs  That's as many as I've ever managed to raise from one spawn anyway... As far as I know, nobody has actually spawned this combo before..... right?

Anyway, They've spawned a little sooner than anticipated (Last thursday 4/12/07) and in a growout tank with 8 or so other Dempseys, etc in the tank. Now they have wrigglers in thier 2/3 of the tank.

Here's a photo of the pair. They spawned later that evening after I lit candles and made a special meal for them  . The female is bottom left and if you look closely you can see her ovidepositor... pervert! :lol: 









Here she is in her full black breeding color, tending eggs.









The eggs hatched 3 days later. They have dug 3 little pits to move the wrigglers between. I wonder if the fry will survive in this community tank?

















Randy Sorenson
~ormed~


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## bstuver

Randy you are moving to Utah? That's where I am. I have been looking for an EBJD and getting a good line here would be nice. I know right now the only fish store here that has any are less than 2" and $60. Let me know if you have any EB that you want to sell.


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## Toby_H

Gee housing all those BG's as well as your breeding pair of BGs must be getting rough... I have a little tank space I can spare if your looking to rehouse any...


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## berknuts

im gonna have to go ahead and second that


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## ormed

Hello Utah!

I can hardly wait to get back. I was just there and moved all my Dempseys to a friend's place, except for the 
BG x BG pair that spawned for me in April just before my trip... the fry all died. 
They also spawned again on 5/6/07. Here's a photo of the spawn about a week ago.









Below is a photo of only the EBJDs taken tonight. They are 29 days old here.









When I seperated the EBJDs from the rest, there were a total of 342 fry, including 63 EBJDs. That calculates out to about 19%, which falls into the range we would expect to get from this combination.

Randy


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## ormed

The same pair spawned again yesterday. That makes 3 spawns within 2 months!  
Here's a photo of the eggs taken yesterday, the 1st day they were laid. The female is keeping an eye on me  









Below are the eggs on day 2. you can tell which eggs weren't fertilized. I like when they spawn in the flower pot resevoir cause I think the sperm stays in it longer, and I get a higher hatch rate.









Randy


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## ormed

Ya right nc_ you've allready got how many spawns of BGJDs??? :lol:

Randy


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## illy-d

You mentioned the fry from the first BG x BG spawning all died - do you know why? I am just wondering about this as I know there was speculation on if BG x BG would produce more robust and hardier fry than EB x BG...

If it turns out that the BG x BG fry are not any hardier than the more traditional EB x BG crossing it raises the question on if the genetic 'deficianies' could be from the BG line and not the EB line (which is where I always presumed they would be from?)... It would also suggest that you would be better off crossing EB x BG and having a higher % of EB fry - if these fry suffer the same 'deficiancies' and produce a lower yield of Electric Blue fry...


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## ormed

The reason I lost the first spawn IS DEFFINATELY BECAUSE I left town and didn't feed them, other than a timed feeder with pellets for 10 days. Otherwise, the Blues from this BG x BG pair seem to fall within the same parameters as my past spawns from EBJD x BGJD. About 2-3% really thrive... They're active, eat well, and seem to hold their own among the top 10-15% of their BG and JD siblings. Then about 97-98% seem to grow well and do well once they're seperated from thier more aggressive, hardier siblings. This can be observed in the photos above. If/when I pay close attention to every aspect of the rearing process, the whole spawn ends up looking like the photo below...







These youngsters from a prior spawn from last year were about 1" and very healthy at the time.

When I get distracted and miss something for a while, or get lazy, I lose fish.

Randy


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## ormed

Here's a cut and paste from a my post at EBJD forum today...
Like clock work they eggs hatched today and the female has move the tiny, new fry to one of 3 pits she has dug. They are so small and blend with the gravel so well that they are near imposible to see. If I had a video clip, you would barely see their little tails wiggling. 
In the bottom photo I can make out a few fry (Of a few hundred) directly below Mom's mouth and head... Look for the vertical stripes, but don't strain youreyes  
















The water current comes from the left... up and over the driftwood where it creates a little eddie where, in nature, food would be funneled over drifting down to the still water where the fry are. Nature at work in the aquarium...

Randy


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## ormed

Here's a photo of 5 day old fry taken yesterday. It's blurry partly because they're wiggling so fast. These fry will be free swimming next week  (Hopefully)









The photo below was also taken yesterday of 32 day old EB fry. They are just starting to get some blue on their gill plates and in their shoulder area. They're 3/8" to almost 1/2" here.
















Yes, they are well fed. Observing that they are eating well is a KEY to determining their health. If your BG isn't, there's some sort of problem...

Randy


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## ormed

It's day 7 for this spawn. This morning they are starting to swim up into the water column for the first time. I've already put a small number of live, bbs into the tank for them, though they probably won't be eating for a few hours.









Randy


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## jefejt

Awesome, keep up the good work.


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## fishcrazy1

Great news!!! Keep us posted. 

I can't get enough of EBJDs. :thumb:


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## ormed

Thanks!

I saw the photos of your new EBs... Very nice! :thumb: 
Mine started breeding when they were not much bigger than yours (At about 5").

Here's a photo of the new spawn one day older (2nd day free swimming) that the last photo, but notice how they have gotten organized and are swimming together as a school now. The parents, especially the female, work hard to keep them together.









Randy


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## Maxi

That is very interesting Randy. I enjoyed reading the past 13 pages... Hope more to come.


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## fishcrazy1

I've got a question about EBJD breeding. I have only been reading about EBJD spawing with gene carriers. Is it possible to spawn two EBJDs? If so what would the ratio be of EBJD to regular JD?


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## jefejt

It would be 100%, however it hasn't been done successfully. Has it been tried with two completely unrelated EBJD strains before?


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## Toby_H

It has been attempted... it has been attempted with success...

No one has publicly claimed to have raised the resultant fry for more than 10 days or so though...

I'm not personally aware of anyone who has actually dedicated sufficient time/energy/resources into giving Blue x Blue breeding a solid enough try to say the fry cannot be raised... but give it time... we'll keep trying


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## ormed

I agree w/nc_ concerning the EB X EB. One guy we know of got the wigglers to within about a day of free swimming. That's the longest I know of. I beleive that if that person were to pull a bunch of the wigglers a day or two after they hatch, and before they become free swimming, they could actually rear some. I suspect that the parents sense something wrong with the wigglers and destroy/eat them.

Randy


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## IIIIII

i cant find anyone with EBJD, can anyone in the bay area shoot me a PM , i want to get some, a pair if possible, or young growouts....


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## csriram45

IIIIII said:


> i cant find anyone with EBJD, can anyone in the bay area shoot me a PM , i want to get some, a pair if possible, or young growouts....


Just sent you a PM. I live in Bay area. Respond to my PM. I can get you some EBJDs.


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## anth75

i live in the boston area and looking to get some EBJD's.can someone point me in the right direction.cant seem to find them online


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## Toby_H

Check Jeff Rapps or AquaBid...

...these are the first two places I look when I want a fish... the third place I look is local fish stores....


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## anth75

thanks,will do


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## ormed

It's been a while since I've posted here, so...
This is a clip of 11 week old EBJDs from a pair of BGJD X BGJD. This combination only produces 25% EBJDs, but in my experience this is about as many as I really want to raise at once. Also, The fry from this combination are more vigorous and faster growing than the spawns I've produced from EBJD X BGJDs. 
*NOTE* I said these youngsters were about 8 weeks old and all over 1" about last July. At 11 weeks old they were already at least 1.5" fattys. This growth rate rivals regular JDs.


Ormed


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## ormed

Here's a clip of a recent spawn (12/1/07 I think). There are new wigglers in the bottom of a pit on the left. The female is very aggressive while the male is pretty mellow... considering. 


Ormed


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## Cichlid Power

Awesome video!


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## ormed

Thanks,

Here's a clip (Poor quality d/t low lighting and rock) of the actual spawning.


Ormed


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## Lancerlot

I liked this topic. It was awesome.


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## PepoLD

/Bump!

is Ormed still around?


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## jamesman_1994

that was one of the bes threads i have read. wish i had a BGJD


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## ormed

I've been primarily focused on building my Oriental Medicine/Acupuncture & Herbal Medicine practice for the past few years. I really enjoyed this Electric Blue Jack Dempsey project while in graduate school, but have sold all of my breeding stock to a friend. I'm currently breeding Koi Angelfish in my clinic. One Tank for a beautiful breeding pair that has it's second batch of "parent raised" fry, that just became free swimming yesterday. A second tank contains the last successful spawn of 40 which are dime sized.

I have also recently spawned some wild type bettas, Green Fire Tetras (Aphyocharax rathbuni), Corydoras Catfish and raised 8 beautiful Japanese koi in a 55 gallon tank with heavy filtration from 4-6" to over a foot in less than a year. They are now in local friends' pond.

So I'm still very active, just playing with some different kinds of fish these days.


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