# Anybody keep Apistogramma panduro



## tropheus duboisi breeder (Jan 31, 2007)

I'm thinking about setting up a 10 gallon planted tank and adding some Panduro's. What consernse me is that I would like to breed them, but my tap water has a PH of 7.6-7.8. What are some methods of lowering this? I really don't have the money right now to put towards a RO unit. Any ideas?


----------



## lotsofish (Feb 28, 2008)

I'd get a bigger tank if you want to breed them.

As for lowering pH, you might be able to mix your water with some distilled water you can buy in gallon jugs. You will have to test the mixture to find the right proportions.

Before going this route, I'd first try to see if they'll breed in the water conditions you have. Then, just dropping the pH a little (make no dramatic changes ever) might induce them to breed and then go back to your regular water by making routine water changes.


----------



## DirtyBlackSocks (Jan 24, 2008)

not necessary to lower the pH, I bred mine in a 29 gallon in the same waters.

Panduro are a bit on the aggressive side, males will lip lock a lot with females - you need a larger tank than a 10 gallon, at least a 20 gallon long footprint I'd say.


----------



## tropheus duboisi breeder (Jan 31, 2007)

Actually I changed my mind and I am going to do this in my 20 gallon. The reason I would like to lower the PH and Hardness, is 1. The Lake Michigan water that runs to my house is as hard as you can get, and second they guy I'm getting the fish from keeps his in a 5.5-6.0 PH (crazy I know, but he has a lot of success with it this low). So a 6.0-7.8 doesn't look big, but actually is to fish. I'd rather slowly aclimate them myself starting at 6.0 and working up to 7.8 over a month or so.

I'm getting a pair from him.


----------



## DirtyBlackSocks (Jan 24, 2008)

Acclimation is a necessity if they're used to waters that soft - will probably take 6 months to get them adjusted to your waters.


----------



## under_control (Jan 9, 2008)

How is he keeping his ph this low? Through RO or through co2. If it is by co2 it is irrelevant as co2 related ph changes are nothing like actual ph changes.


----------



## tropheus duboisi breeder (Jan 31, 2007)

*Under_Control*
His PH naturally is 6.5

This is from his site


> The next thing I do is treat the water with Sodium Bisulphate to bring the pH of my water down to 4.5. I also use peat in my filters, and leaves (either oak or beech) to bring the pH down. However, I have found that these two natural methods won't get the pH as low as I like it, so I supplement with the chemical alteration. I like to end up with a pH of 5.0 to 5.5 for most of my fish. The fish in the Apistogramma pertensis / Apistogramma iniridae-complex seem to like it lower, around 4.5 pH


He is a serious keeper and has a lot of tanks and a lot of apistogramma species. If you would like a link to his website just pm me.


----------



## kornphlake (Feb 12, 2004)

That breeder is also starting with water that is very soft, you may have a hard time getting the pH that low and keeping it that low after a few water changes if your tap water has any hardness. You'll have to keep aged, softened water in large quantites for water changes or else you'll raise the pH pretty significantly with every water change.

I'm trying to lower the pH of my water for some Apistos also, I'm starting with water that has almost no hardness, about 5ppm, the pH would be in the mid 6's but the water company adds sodium hydroxide to raise the pH and reduce corrosion of plumbing. I somehow expected the pH to drop within a few days of adding peat to the filter, it's been a week now and the pH hasn't budged a bit.


----------



## tropheus duboisi breeder (Jan 31, 2007)

*kornphlake*

I plan on keeping a 50 gallon storage tube with some aged and softened water in it. 
What kind of peat are you using? I need to get some. He's located in Sister, Oregon and says his water comes from snow melt. 2 people with the same problem lol


----------



## tropheus duboisi breeder (Jan 31, 2007)

I'm getting them from the guy who wrote this article actually, but never saw this on CF, just on his website. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/apisto_care.php


----------



## kornphlake (Feb 12, 2004)

I knew you were getting them from Apisto Dave when you posted the excerpt from his site, I'd read it before.

I'm using 100% sphagnum peat moss I bought in the garden section of a department store, I don't plan on keeping aged water on hand. A few people from the local aquarium society have confirmed that once the pH drops it stays low pretty easily but I'm starting with water that is almost as pure as reverse osmosis, nearly the same water Dave has in Sisters.

This fall I'm planning on collecting a bag of oak leaves to add to the tank as well, as that will help lower the pH a little as well.


----------



## DCguy (Mar 9, 2008)

If you want to slowly acclimate the fish to your water you might consider goinf to the grocery store and buying enough RO water to fill 80-90% of the tank and add tap water for the rest. Then do small frequent water changes and each change will gradually bring the water closer to your tap.

In my experience panduro are fairly flexible. While they can be aggressive, each individual is different. Add plenty of cover and you should be fine. I have kept pairs in 10 gallon tanks many times.

Here is some more info if you are intereseted
http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Apistogramma_panduro.php

Panduro are one of my favorite Apistos. They have great colors and are usually not shy in the tank. You will enjoy having them.

Bob


----------



## cc_woman (Jan 31, 2008)

I just wanted to mention, distilled water is not the same as RO water. Distillation is simply the process of boiling the water, then letting the steam condense and there you have your distilled water. Distilled water will still have a hardness, whereas RO will not. RO is a totally different process where the water goes through different stages and filters to remove chemicals and minerals. Different RO units will filter better than others. I bought a 5 stage RO/DI unit, which will filter the most minerals out of the water and leave it pure, with little hardness if even any at all. You will want to go out and buy the jugs of spring water or RO water.

You can also try leaving a large barrel outside to collect rain water for adding to your tank. I do not prefer this method because of smog or toxins that are in the air, it may or may not affect the rain water. With a pH and KH as high as it is, I would definitely not recommend using any chemicals to help lower the pH. By doing this the KH will buffer the pH causing the pH to fluctuate back and forth, and fluctuations over 0.2 in a short period of time could kill fish. You can use any natural thing like driftwood or peat to help soften the water, but with your water as hard as it is you will have a difficult time with those alone. I know this because I have tried many of these methods, I have a pH of 7.6 and a KH of 130ppm. And they will not make much of a difference at all. If he is keeping his fish in such a lower hardness than yours, I would absolutely recommend trying to get your hardness down to about the same. It is very difficult to acclimate fish from one immediate hardness to another. The change would be too much for the fish. However, you can slowly acclimate them back up to your hardness over a long period of time, so you won't be having to soften their water all the time.

For softening the water you should have these items. A large bucket, a heater and an airstone. I would try a combo of about 40% tank water to 60% RO water to begin with in the bucket. Have the heater on to the desired temp and have the airstone in as well. You don't want the water to turn stale while you are testing this. Measure the KH and pH of the water. Leave it and then measure it again at the end of the day. I would leave it until morning and then measure the parameters for the last time. By waiting, you are helping the water to stabilize since not all changes in KH and pH are instant. If you still don't get the desired parameters, try again using a different ratio of RO and tap until you find what works for you.


----------



## tropheus duboisi breeder (Jan 31, 2007)

*cc_woman*

I have tested the hardness of the distilled water that I buy at the store and it has a very low hardness and a ph of 6.5. I usually buy 10 1 gallon jugs for $10. My dad uses a lot of distilled water because of a machine that he sometimes uses and it cannot have minerals in it otherwise the machine will break.


----------



## cc_woman (Jan 31, 2008)

I know distilled has a hardness, but RO has next to no hardness, so achieving a pH of about 5.5 with distilled will still be tough to do without using chemicals. In the case of using distilled, you will probably not be wanting to use tap since the tap will just bring the hardness up more from what the distilled is. RO water will be much easier and cheaper to use in the long run, just letting you know. And by using a mix of RO water with tap, will allow you to get a proper hardness without having to supplement by adding beneficial minerals back into the water. I tried using a mix of distilled and tap in a tank I have and it did not change the parameters hardly at all. I am just trying to give advice on research I have done and personal experience with different things.


----------

