# Confused about Cichlids and crowding the tank??



## woptang22

Well Im new to aquariums and african cichlids. But *** tried doing some research and reading only to confuse myself.  I have a 60 gallon tank stocking with african cichlids. Every local fish store I go to tells me something different about which fish are compatible and how many I can have in a 60 gallon tank. It seems the local fish stores will sell any african cichlid I point at and say its compatible with the rest. *** also been advised to overcrowd the tank with afican cichlids as it will reduce aggression. So at this point I have 16 or 17 african cichlids in my tank. After being told "all african cichlids are compatible together," I feel all my local fish stores have said anything as long as I bought fish. So as of now heres my list of fish: Yellow lab, bumblebee, jewel, powder blue socolofi, albino socolofi(I believe), giraffe, 
2 sunshine peacocks, 2 acai's, 3 light blue cichlids with black verital stripes I believe kenyi and demonsoni, 1 yellow cichlid with light black stripes, red zebra , auratus, and lastly a tropheus moori which I now know is from a different lake then the rest. Will these fish be compatible and is this already overcrowding? Or will these fish get along and is there room for more? When I hear overcrowding Im not sure how many african cichlids I can have in the 60 gallon tank I own? I apologize for the novel, just looking to clear my questions up.


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## peterock44

what are your tank dimensions? the auratus, bumblebee, kenyi, and demasoni are very aggressive fish. the giraffe (I'll assume is a venestus) gets large and decently aggressive as well. most lfs will sell you anything they can, unless you stumble upon a knowledgeable one. as far as over crowding the tank that will depend on your tank dimensions and overall goal for the tank.


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## woptang22

peterock44 said:


> what are your tank dimensions? the auratus, bumblebee, kenyi, and demasoni are very aggressive fish. the giraffe (I'll assume is a venestus) gets large and decently aggressive as well. most lfs will sell you anything they can, unless you stumble upon a knowledgeable one. as far as over crowding the tank that will depend on your tank dimensions and overall goal for the tank.


Thank you for your response. The tank is 48 1/2 inches long, 23 inches high, and almost 13 inches back to front. As far as my goal for the tank, I just wanted a colorful, healthy african cichlid tank. I am now seeing I possibly chose way to many different african cichlids. But as I said, every store pretty much told me all african cichlids should work fine with each other except for a few that they didnt mention. Being I dont have any issues as of now do you think that could change or should it stay somewhat peaceful as it is?


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## woptang22

Heres some pics of the tank.


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## eTrain

How big are they? You may not have as many problems now but once they mature you are very likely to. if you are only stocking 1 of each species you would want a male only tank and even then you will want a quarantine tank for the sub dominant beat up ones. Also you don't want to keep similar colored fish with similar markings.

And for the most part stores only look at pH requirements to determine comparability.


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## woptang22

eTrain said:


> How big are they? You may not have as many problems now but once they mature you are very likely to. if you are only stocking 1 of each species you would want a male only tank and even then you will want a quarantine tank for the sub dominant beat up ones. Also you don't want to keep similar colored fish with similar markings.
> 
> And for the most part stores only look at pH requirements to determine comparability.


Most of the fish are about an inch or inch and a half. The powder blue socolofi and albino are about 2 1/2 inches . The sunshine peacocks seem to be the biggest at maybe 3 inches. As far as similar colored fish with similar markings, I may have an issue there. I have 3 light blue either kenyi or demasoni with vertical black stripes. The 3 of them look pretty similar. What issue does this cause?


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## DJRansome

You want 8 to 10 individuals in this tank. The giraffe needs a 72" tank. The bumblebee will get too large.

Similar males will view each other as competition and fight, or the sub-dominant fish will not color up.

I would not mix the peacocks with the mbuna.


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## woptang22

DJRansome said:


> You want 8 to 10 individuals in this tank. The giraffe needs a 72" tank. The bumblebee will get too large.
> 
> Similar males will view each other as competition and fight, or the sub-dominant fish will not color up.
> 
> I would not mix the peacocks with the mbuna.


Thank you again for your help. As far as the giraffe and bumblebee, I keep hearing they will grow pretty big. But I am still wondering why do people say to overcrowd the tanks with african cichlids to keep the aggression down? Is this not true? Or only for certain african cichlids?


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## eTrain

The overstocking is considered to spread aggression between multiple fish so that they don't get singled out and harassed to death. It may help but I personally don't think it is a good idea.


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## Yael

I think the idea of over crowding a cichlid tank may have come from the observation that in a tank with many territorial males they kept each other very busy defending their borders and this allowed for a group of schooling females to swim freely among them. This will work for some species but really only with species that have defined territories and pretty much only in a single species tank. Crowding imo isn't the thing to do to have a peaceful and healthy tank. Back in my grad school days I kept 25 gal tanks with 6 dominant males each and 20 females for the purpose of studying territorial and breeding behavior. It works, but only under very specific conditions.


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## woptang22

Thanks for clearing the overcrowding issue up. I just wasnt sure how to proceed. Some people say to overcrowd, some people say dont. Id imagine it would only cause more issues. But in my opinion I think it would look nicer with more fish. But I dont want to risk hurting the fish with overcrowding.


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## Yael

imo every fish should have a place to rest or hide and a few extra - not that they will hide all the time, but crowding to the point where they can't avoid conflict just seems unfair to the fish to me.

I'm also not fond of the look of fish just swimming aimlessly because there's no where else to go - I like when it's clear that the fish are purposeful in their activity so really crowded tanks look too much like crowded zoo conditions to me - where the animals pass and don't act in natural ways.

However, everyone has their own tastes.


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## woptang22

Yael said:


> imo every fish should have a place to rest or hide and a few extra - not that they will hide all the time, but crowding to the point where they can't avoid conflict just seems unfair to the fish to me.
> 
> I'm also not fond of the look of fish just swimming aimlessly because there's no where else to go - I like when it's clear that the fish are purposeful in their activity so really crowded tanks look too much like crowded zoo conditions to me - where the animals pass and don't act in natural ways.
> 
> However, everyone has their own tastes.


It makes total sense what your saying. I dont mean to overcrowd the tank to a point where the fish dont have their own place. But I see pictures of larger aquariums with only a few fish. Id just like to see a few fish swimming around. But I think Im actually a bit confused lol. After hearing opinions on overcrowding or undercrowding with african cichlids Im just a bit intimidated. Also a bit upset that I may have made bad decisions with my fish choices. I just hope it all works out without too many issues.


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## DJRansome

8 to 10 individuals IS the appropriate level of overcrowding. You don't want less because they will be afraid and fight. You don't really want more.

People do have different opinions on what the appropriate level of overcrowding is. Some people have tanks that look like the goldfish feeder tank at your fish store. That's not for me.


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## woptang22

DJRansome said:


> 8 to 10 individuals IS the appropriate level of overcrowding. You don't want less because they will be afraid and fight. You don't really want more.
> 
> People do have different opinions on what the appropriate level of overcrowding is. Some people have tanks that look like the goldfish feeder tank at your fish store. That's not for me.


Thats where Im confused. *** seen videos of african cichlid tanks with around 40 fish swimming around. Granted the tanks are probably a bit bigger then my 60 gallon. In a way it looks nice with alot of fish. But also it just looks like theres no room for each fish. I guess my issue is that I have a 60 gallon and have 16 or 17 different african cichlids. And Im wondering if that is already overcrowded or what I should actually do. Im actually stressing myself out over the whole situation. I dont want to harm the fish because of my poor choice of species. But I also dont want to just throw away money by getting rid of the fish I currently have. So Im hoping things will stay fairly calm as they have been. But then Im also wondering if I should add more fish supporting the theory of overcrowding. Or just leave the tank as is...


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## Yael

I think first you have to make some choices between the fish you already have and find new homes for those who are incompatible. Once you make that choice and end up with a good set of fish, then is the time to decide if you should add any more.

I have a 30 gal currently with only two species and 7 fish plus a cat. I need to add a couple of females to one of the species to provide enough females for one of the males. That's only two males in the tank. Many people here will say that I have too many fish at that level but I've also got two of the least aggressive species of mbuna and they stay on the smaller side. I also have a ton of rock work and hiding places and a bunch of plants so when the fish want to disappear there are times that it looks like the tank is empty. Time will tell for me.

You're going for all males - right? Or do you know if that's what you have yet? With as many species as you already have, even if you remove the bigger more aggressive ones, you'll pretty much have had to make sure that they are all males. These fish just can't be kept well in pairs or anything less than harem groups so any female in a tank of mostly males will cause a great deal of problems.


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## woptang22

Honestly thats another issue. I dont know if I have make or females. And I dont know how to tell the difference. I really hope I can straighten it all out because Id really like to enjoy the fun of having a nice aquarium with nice looking fish. But Im getting nervous that I made all the wrong decisions.



Yael said:


> I think first you have to make some choices between the fish you already have and find new homes for those who are incompatible. Once you make that choice and end up with a good set of fish, then is the time to decide if you should add any more.
> 
> I have a 30 gal currently with only two species and 7 fish plus a cat. I need to add a couple of females to one of the species to provide enough females for one of the males. That's only two males in the tank. Many people here will say that I have too many fish at that level but I've also got two of the least aggressive species of mbuna and they stay on the smaller side. I also have a ton of rock work and hiding places and a bunch of plants so when the fish want to disappear there are times that it looks like the tank is empty. Time will tell for me.
> 
> You're going for all males - right? Or do you know if that's what you have yet? With as many species as you already have, even if you remove the bigger more aggressive ones, you'll pretty much have had to make sure that they are all males. These fish just can't be kept well in pairs or anything less than harem groups so any female in a tank of mostly males will cause a great deal of problems.


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## Yael

I have to say that it's very likely that you've made some choices that aren't going to work out. It happens. LFS should be more responsible in helping newbies to cichlids in choosing fish but many don't know much themselves.

Do you have a camera? If so, a good place to start is to get all your fish ID'd by posting pics of them along with labeling them for what you think they are.

From that it'll be possible to tell which fish you're going to have to rehome.

Even before that you'll need to decide if you want to try for an all male tank or if you want to keep a few breeding groups. Both types of tanks can be very interesting and colorful but you really can't do a mix of the two, it has to be either or. Which do you think you'd like more info about?


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## woptang22

Yael said:


> I have to say that it's very likely that you've made some choices that aren't going to work out. It happens. LFS should be more responsible in helping newbies to cichlids in choosing fish but many don't know much themselves.
> 
> Do you have a camera? If so, a good place to start is to get all your fish ID'd by posting pics of them along with labeling them for what you think they are.
> 
> From that it'll be possible to tell which fish you're going to have to rehome.
> 
> Even before that you'll need to decide if you want to try for an all male tank or if you want to keep a few breeding groups. Both types of tanks can be very interesting and colorful but you really can't do a mix of the two, it has to be either or. Which do you think you'd like more info about?


I do have a camera Ill try to get some pics to ID all the fish. I believe I know most of them, but a few Im not totally sure. And as far as all male or breeding groups I really havent given that much thought until today after reading more about it. What would you suggest is the safer way to go? Im not looking to breed fish. I just would like to have a good looking, healthy aquarium. I want it to be fun not stressful. And I feel as if Im getting stressed out over the stock of fish.


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## Yael

I think and have read that a limited number of breeding groups, one male each species with a harem of females is easier and more likely to be peaceful with the right choices. All male tanks take a lot of watching and a readiness to rescue any fish that is being beat up - with a hospital/recovery tank ready if needed.

The way many people get breeding groups is to get something like 8 young fish for each species group you have and then remove extra males as it becomes apparent by their behavior. That way you'll end up with 1 male and 3-4 females for each group. The other way is to buy fish that are mature enough so that you can tell males from females. You don't need to raise the fry to enjoy having the groups like this. Eventually the holding females will release the fry and someone in the tank will likely eat them.


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## woptang22

Yael said:


> I think and have read that a limited number of breeding groups, one male each species with a harem of females is easier and more likely to be peaceful with the right choices. All male tanks take a lot of watching and a readiness to rescue any fish that is being beat up - with a hospital/recovery tank ready if needed.
> 
> The way many people get breeding groups is to get something like 8 young fish for each species group you have and then remove extra males as it becomes apparent by their behavior. That way you'll end up with 1 male and 3-4 females for each group. The other way is to buy fish that are mature enough so that you can tell males from females. You don't need to raise the fry to enjoy having the groups like this. Eventually the holding females will release the fry and someone in the tank will likely eat them.


So for what I have now is there a way I can tell the sex of each fish? Im guessing color doesnt matter? Last time I bought a fish I asked if it was make or female and the fish store didnt know.


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## DJRansome

If you end up with more than 10 males in your tank after rehoming the ones that obviously do not fit because they are too large...then there is nothing wrong with a wait and see approach. Maybe it will work. If it doesn't you can take the appropriate action.

I would not stock more than 17 fish to increase the level of overcrowding.

If your fish are too small to sex...and you might want to consider mixed gender...wait until they start to mature and sort them out then.


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