# moving fry? Keep them ?



## beachtan (Sep 25, 2008)

I have 9 fry of various sizes 1/2" to 1.75" (they look most like Dayglow victorians) in a 10 gal. I have a mixed 55 gal with most fish 2-2.5" I had wanted to breed the fry eventually but now with no proper ID, I'm unsure what to do. 2 of the largest males are becoming a bit aggressive with the little ones but not too bad. no ripped fins anywhere... Should I just leave them all in the 10 gal until they reach , lets say, 2.5"? then move to the big tank? without having a correct species label I dont know their level of aggressiveness and compatibiity with the fish I have.

Also, if they are a hybrid, am I not supposed to breed them or distribute them? or can I advertise them just as "victorian cichlids" and sell them. I would really like your opinions so I can make some kind of decision!! Thanks! (pics are under ID: pundamilla fry,mom,dad pics forum)


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## chapman76 (Jun 30, 2004)

I do not let hybrids leave my tanks. I know I could sell them as hybirds, but I don't know what that person might do with them. They might not be as honest.

With Vics, it's almost impossible to tell. That is why not many people keep them. Females look quite similar between many of the different species.


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## beachtan (Sep 25, 2008)

ok. so people dont want hybrids, right? why? sorry,just trying to understand. (I'm a bit new) and if the fish are really colorful and great looking, then why? arent lots of them bred for more color? wouldnt that make most hybrids? Maybe this is a controversial issue. and I'm hearing about variants. honestly, I cant tell why my fish are not Dayglows. Is it because the pec fins are blue instead of black? because the only rainbow fish I can find is the Kyoga Flameback without the black pec fins. But my babies pec fins are turning black.

Can you tell me what you would do if you were in my shoes? Maybe just wait and see how they look as they get older? keep the fry all together and see if they pair up ? or move the biggest 2 males into my 55 gal and hope for the best? and wait and see if any other male will become dominant in the fry tank? :-? Please help me decide what to do here! opcorn:


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## beachtan (Sep 25, 2008)

...


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## Dave (Feb 9, 2003)

If you do not know what they are, then you should not distribute them. Keeping them will only make things harder down the line if you decide you no longer want them.



beachtan said:


> ... arent lots of them bred for more color? wouldnt that make most hybrids?


 Yes, color is one reason why people breed fish. No, that doesn't make them hybrids.

What would I do? Cull them.


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## mcklnjr (May 22, 2008)

I would cull them, we want people down the road to still be able to get a specific strain of african cichlid. Not a mixed gene pool, it would just degrade the hobby in my opinion.


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## beachtan (Sep 25, 2008)

ok. bummer. can you explain the term 'hybrid' a little because what makes something a hybrid - any unidentifiable fish? just wanna get it right!

Here's my sad little fry tank. I really dont wanna dump them. Can u tell?! 


























oh- and no wisecracks about the heater! lol :lol:

would it be dumb to move just the biggest male into my big tank? The dad fish is so pretty. 









my brother says to dump em, just spend the $$ to get a breeding pair of something and go from there. There are so many "rainbow" - lookin' fish. Which, in your opinion, are the prettiest, most profitable, most wanted ones to breed of this appearance? does that make sense? :?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

A hybrid results from two different species breeding. Many times they are "unidentifiable", but many times they also pass as a pure species, which is even worse, IMO.

As cichlid enthusiasts, most of us like to keep the species pure.

Try doing a search here for "hybrids" and read through some of the posts. I think this would help to clarify things a bit for you!


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## Dave (Feb 9, 2003)

A hybrid is the cross between two fish from different Genera, species, subspecies, or even variants/collection points.

If you do not know what your fish are it does not make them hybrids, but you should never distribute fish if you are not certain that they are pure. Victorians have probably suffered the most from hybridization in the hobby, so dumping your fish at a pet store, labeled as hybrids or not, is not doing the rest of us any favors.


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## beachtan (Sep 25, 2008)

This sucks bad. I'm so disappointed that I didnt get a true breed or whatever you call it. The dad fish has better colors than I've seen defined in any book or online gallery. Too bad. Woulda looked good in my tank.


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## beachtan (Sep 25, 2008)

and no - I wont pass them on at all. I've read a bunch about hybrids tonight and I totally get it. -its a bad thing. I'd be pissed if I bought pure fish and 2 broods later got some weird lookin' fish! I guess mine will be feeders cuz theres no way I'm chopping their heads off as someone suggested to me!!  I'm depressed.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

One of the first two cichlids I purchased was a hybrid, so I know how you feel. :roll:


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## Dewdrop (Nov 20, 2007)

You could keep the fry if you want. Let them grow out and see if any turn out as pretty as the dad. The father is a gorgeous fish...if that really is their father. You just shouldn't breed them to pass on to others or pass those on to others. There isn't anything wrong with having hybrids in your tank if you choose to have them. It's just that letting them get away from you is what people have a problem with :wink: .


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## beachtan (Sep 25, 2008)

yeah, true.


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## alexrex20 (Aug 26, 2005)

simply breeding different variants of the same sub/species does not make the offspring a hybrid. if that were the case, a cross between a labrador retriever and a poodle would no longer be a dog. :roll: it is a cross, not a hybrid.


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## Dewdrop (Nov 20, 2007)

ahhhhhh :wink:


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## beachtan (Sep 25, 2008)

Hmm... now I'm more confused. Please define:

Crossbreed:

Hybrid:

both are considered "bad & undesirable", not for resale. right?

(if someone is selling a fish as "show tank only" that means it's a crossb. or hybrid?)


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Crossing the same species from two different locales is also considered undesirable. I would also deem them as hybrids, since those two locales should not have been introduced and would never cross in the wild, _period_.

You can't compare fish and dogs. Dogs (Canis lupus familiaris) are all of the same Genus and species, resulting in subspecies/breeds. (I'm not the best person here to explain this, but I'm sure someone will go into more detail than I ever could! :wink: )

I've never heard of anyone selling a fish at "show tank only". Hobbyist should be open and up front about any potential for hybridization in the fish that they sell. I would tend to be skeptical of any fish that was specified "show tank only", and ask alot of questions before buying it! (People tend to classify their fish as "show fish" all the time, however, if they haven't won placement in a show, they aren't "show fish"!)

If you haven't done so already, I would do a search here on the forum for "hybrids". This will give you all the reading material you could possibly need, and hopefully give you a better understanding of this whole subject. :thumb:


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## chapman76 (Jun 30, 2004)

alexrex20 said:


> simply breeding different variants of the same sub/species does not make the offspring a hybrid. if that were the case, a cross between a labrador retriever and a poodle would no longer be a dog. :roll: it is a cross, not a hybrid.


You're wrong there. It's still a hybrid. It's an intraspecies hybrid, not an interspecies hybrid. 
Your example of cross a lab and a poodle is valid. It's no longer a lab or a poodle. It's one of the stupid Laboodle dogs or whatever those jumbled names are. It's a hybrid. It's still a dog, but a hybrid dog of two known and accepted variants of a dog.


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## beachtan (Sep 25, 2008)

so is a crossbreed and hybrid the same thing?


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## chapman76 (Jun 30, 2004)

Not really.

For example, A fryeri Maleri Island and Likoma Island mixed would be a hybrid. It could still be sold as a fryeri because it still is a fryeri. You just couldn't claim that it is location specific anymore. That's all. An interspecies hybrid is something that you should either keep or kill.


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## beachtan (Sep 25, 2008)

Oh OK! now I see the light!! 8)

that makes sense. Can I push it and ask another q?

I recently saw some tanks as "All Male" they were mixed africans about 4" and up. All seemed calm in the tank, and it was REALLY cool! Can I do that without much trouble in the tank? or is that all a "proper combination" issue? and they'll fight and kill eachother.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

You can do an all male tank.

What size tank are we talking about?

In general, it's best not to mix mbuna with haps and peacocks. I personally think the all male hap and peacock tanks look nicer and seem to be more enjoyable to watch, but I like my breeding groups with mbuna.

You don't want to choose males that look alike, as that can cause aggression issues, and if you mistakenly put any females in the tank, that can also cause problems.

If you have a source where you can buy adult males, that makes things easier.

If you have to start with juveniles and wait to determine the sex, that can make things more difficult. It can take alot of time and patience to get the tank as you want it.


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## beachtan (Sep 25, 2008)

at least a 55gal. for the all male tank. I'm looking at going up to a 125gal in the spring. but I'll have to see about that one!

Here's my idea. I want to breed fish. so I am finding out I need f1's to avoid inbreeding. then when I end up with a nice looking male I dont know what to do with, but wanna keep him, he'll go into my all male tank. Good plan? or bad plan?

then I can keep the females in a tank and just add the male when I want spawning? then put the male back and leave the female and fry in their own tank. what do ya think?!

Any tips on getting reasonable f1's? :roll:


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

That sounds like a real pain to me. I agree with removing males from your own stock to make an all male tank, but it sounds like you're planning to remove all males and onlly replace them for breeding? Is that right?

Keep in mind that you're not going to want more than one male of each species in your all male set up.

Ideally, if you want to get serious about breeding, you just need to set up some single species tanks and let it happen. If you choose carefully, you can set up a 55G with 2-3 species for breeding, but I would leave the males in at all times. (You could then pull _extra_ males for your all male tank.)

Will the 55g be a single species tank? If not, how will you make sure the male you drop in doesn't spawn with other females of other species? If you drop several males in the tank at once, you'll wind up with chaos for quite some time before they settle in and actually breed.

It will also be stressful for the fish to do it this way. Anytime you move them from one tank to another, you'll find that it will cause disruption in the tank, and the hierarchy will have to be worked out again.

Plus, if these tanks are in your main living area, you'll find the all female tank quite drab and boring to watch.

Not sure what you mean by needing F1's to avoid "inbreeding"...F1 are nice fish to deal with, but if you have any quality trusted breeders in your area that have nice tank raised fish, there is nothing wrong with those, either. As for "inbreeding", I assume you mean siblings breeding? That's not a problem, and can happen with F1s as easily as with wild or tank raised fish.

As far as reasonable F1s, you shouldn't be paying much more for them than you do for tank raised...At least, you don't around here.


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## Dewdrop (Nov 20, 2007)

I'm with Kim. If you really would like to breed to pass on fish to others, I would choose 3 species for the 55g. tank that with the proper sex ratios won't be very likely to cross breed. Have one male and 4 females (is what I would recommend) of each species. You'll also need at least a couple smaller fry tanks. I think doing that would be way cool and give you a very enjoyable tank. It's what I plan to do with my 55g., eventually.


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## beachtan (Sep 25, 2008)

Yeah, I went nuts at first and just bought whatever I wanted not paying much attention to temperment etc. my favorites are the neolamp. trets. anyway to sex them? they're about 1.5 " and are starting to flare their gills out at eachother. this is not good right? I just read that they;ll kill off the entire tank when they get bigger. What!"^%#@%  so do I really need to make them a species only tank or is that overreacting?!

Can I mix any of the peacocks/haps? I'm looking seriously at that yellow blaze breeding group 1 male and 5 females. how does that sound? he has a large set and a medium set - which should I get?? also fry. but they cant go in the tank with the adults I assume (theyre about 1")
sorry I kinda went off on a tangent here...


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