# Can any quality male Yellow Lab get black on his face??



## CutieSusieQ

I have been reading again and if anyone has ever searched the internet for answers pertaining to African Cichlids then you know that there is a TON of misleading/inaccurate/confusing information out there.

I am curious about something again and wanted to see what kind of answers I get here.

I have read that black on the face of a yellow lab tends to happen to males mainly... I read that it can be a sign of stress...it can be a sign that the male is dominate and ready to breed...and that it can be a sign that the fish is from a bad strain.

So I want to know if a pure good quality strain of Yellow Labs can still get black on their face during breeding or when stressed? Or if the black charcoal face is truly a sign of poor quality?

:-?


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## eagl97

My yellow lab had black on her face but it I think it was from stress.










This fish sometimes has black on her face.


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## CutieSusieQ

Your photo brings up yet another question I had about yellow labs too. I read that yellow labs do not have egg spots, but I have to disagree! I have some labs with egg spots and I see that you do too.


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## ladybugzcrunch

That's a female??? She is very beautiful!!! Pretty as any male.


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## CutieSusieQ

I bought my yellow labs online from a dealer that was recommended to me from this forum. They are supposed to be "Lion Coves" but I have a male whose face is very charcoal looking. I it looks like my other male is starting to turn a little greyish in the face too. I don't like it at all, but if that's normal sign of breeding for male yellow labs, then ok, I'll deal with it. I can re-home the other male, maybe this will help?? I don't know ......but if it's a sign of a poor strain, then I got ripped off.


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## tranced

im pretty sure every yellow lab could be considered as originating from 'lions cove'


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## CutieSusieQ

tranced said:


> im pretty sure every yellow lab could be considered as originating from 'lions cove'


This is what the website says

"Outstanding and unique in color these Electric Yellows should be in every cichlid tank no matter what. Electric Yellow vary drastically in quality and have been ruined by foreign breeders, however we take pride in our strain and know you will be pleased. Keep in mind these are not the "Solid Electric Yellow" in which the females and the juveniles do not have barring. Keep in mind that in order for that strain to exist the fish were actually cross bred with Red Zebras. Please do not confuse this with our "Lions Cove" variety. Our juveniles have barring and females might have a little as well. However our Males turn out beautiful just like the one pictured and as the females age their bars will disappear completely as well."

All my Labs are beautiful and the bars are completely gone. They are all an awesome bright yellow...except for the two males. Like I said, their face is turning black so I'm curious about what's up.


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## ashilli48

I'm curious to see responses from long term keepers. I recently noticed that my dominant male had developed what can only be described as "5 o'clock shadow". I have been keeping them for 5 years now and never noticed this before. The colony was 11 strong recently and in the past year has been as numerous as 25 if you count the grown out juvies.

Can't say I know what the cause was/is. Curious to find out.


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## DJRansome

The less often your male gets the "beard" the better quality he is. I have what is known as a good strain. Mine can get a light silvery "beard" when breeding and only gets a darker color on his face when something extraordinary is going on in the tank (bloat epidemic for example).

I have yet to own a fully mature adult male that stays pure yellow 100% of the time. I have had only two strains. Prior to my current batch I had LFS labs and they got the "dirty" markings more often instead of rarely.


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## eagl97

My yellow lab is from the same supplier and is at least 2 years old if not 3. The black just went away after all the bullies either died or were taken out of the tank. Now she the only adult in my tank and the boss.


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## emptyhead

DJRansome said:


> The less often your male gets the "beard" the better quality he is. I have what is known as a good strain. Mine can get a light silvery "beard" when breeding and only gets a darker color on his face when something extraordinary is going on in the tank (bloat epidemic for example).
> 
> I have yet to own a fully mature adult male that stays pure yellow 100% of the time. I have had only two strains. Prior to my current batch I had LFS labs and they got the "dirty" markings more often instead of rarely.


This is my experience as well. I currently have 2 groups from different strains. I am going to cull the one group - the shadowing just never leaves - an obviously compromised strain. Good looking labs are some of the best looking fish IMO. The females in my good group never show shadowing and the males only occasionally. Good strain also have very dark solid black markings on the fins.


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## LKO316

I just got my online order in a week ago. 3 yellow labs plus some peacocks . One of them great yellow color no black barring. But other two have charcoil face and blk barring on the body. I'm not too happy about my order too. 
Next time i will go lfs see the fish i want b/4 i buy it.


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## eagl97

So you don't think they out grow it or is just a mood they're in. Because that's what I'm thinking.


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## stnick80

The best quality specimens I have seen usually get the bearding during spawning. I cannot comment on the high stress. Either I've never put mine under enough stress or it doesn't happen. I can tell you that in my experience bearding seems more common in larger males during spawning. To me it isn't a sign of bad quality but rather a trait of the species. Wild caught labs do get the bearding as well.

Many of you have probably already seen my oldest male and prized male. He gets the bearding when spawning.





































This is him 5 years ago for reference. Notice the subtle barring.


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## eagl97

I didn't think it wa a bad thing like every one else says. So mine is probably a male even though I ordered females because it had a beard. I swore I seen it trying to mate with one of my male peacocks.


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## kabuto

Wow.
First time i've seen a fish juve -> Adult photo.
Any more pictures in-between?? Would love to see them.

lol. sorry got off topic a lil. but yes, pictures at age 2/3/4 yr would be great


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## GoofBoy

Here is a girl from the same source:








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I am growing out fry from her.

I received 3 males and 3 girls as juvies. In time, two of the males showed the bearding you are describing when housed with the girls - they are now in an all-male Hap/peacock tank and look very 'clean'. The third male looks as clean as this girl pictured above when housed with the girls (with more black on the fins) and I am going to try and get fry from them.

I believe this strain is typical of what you will find today - I kept labs 20 years ago (ouch!) and they were all very clean - I never saw barring or bearding - so trying them again after not having them for a long time has been, well trying.

I have tried to get some labs in the last couple of years and these are the 'cleanest' I have found. I am certain there are people on site who have better fish - the issue is actually getting fry from them when you live in the middle of the High Desset :lol:.

Good Luck.


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## CutieSusieQ

I vented all my fish this weekend that is how I know my yellow lab with the dark face is a male. Which I was already pretty sure it was a male anyway b/c of the dance he does every now and then showing off to my females. So I am just hoping that it is a breeding thing. I really just want it to go away though, lol. It seems like somedays the charcoal effect is darker than other days, but it never goes all the way away.

My females are beautiful. I also kept two of the babies from the last time my labs bred (they are about 2.5 inches long now) and they look incredible to be so young. All my labs have everything you want in a lab just like the pictures shown in this thread; black fins, bright yellow body, no barring, faint lines of blue in the tail fin, black line through the eye, even have some with egg spots on the anal fin. But my big male has that aweful dark face and I think my other male is starting to get it.

I don't know what could be causing my big male to stay stressed if it is stress related...unless it is the other male??? I've been thinking of re-homing the other male lab... I never see any my Cobalts messing with my labs. Maybe it's the weekly water changes stressing him out??? I move the rocks around everytime I clean the tank, but I always put them back in the same spot.

Soooo, I'm still confused on what it could be, lol

Any of you with "very clean strains", do you ever ship your juvies when selling them??


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## GoofBoy

CutieSusieQ said:


> I don't know what could be causing my big male to stay stressed if it is stress related...unless it is the other male??? I've been thinking of re-homing the other male lab... I never see any my Cobalts messing with my labs. Maybe it's the weekly water changes stressing him out???


IMO, It is dominance not stress. As soon as I got the bearded two dominant males away from the girls they lightened up.


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## Riceburner

Mu sub dominant male gets bearded when chased by the Alpha. The males smaller than the 2nd in size don't get it cause #2 gets most of the chasing. In my tank it seems that chase stress is the main cause.


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## Number6

stnick80 said:


> To me it isn't a sign of bad quality but rather a trait of the species. Wild caught labs do get the bearding as well.


Are you sure of this? e.g. have you confirmed that the yellow labs were indeed wild caught and not just claimed to be so? Have you traced back to the exporter?

I've wondered about this trait often over the years, and wouldn't be overly surprised to find out that it is a natural trait. Yours is the first post I have seen that suggests that wild caughts get the bearding when spawning/breeding so I will challenge you to back it up.


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## fox

We have noticed that our dominant male gets a dirty face but the other males remain a bright yellow as the females. Can't tell them apart. Some times the smaller immature males flanks will get darker due to stress but as they grow older they lose this shading and assume their position in the pecking order. Only the one gets bearded in our lab tank.


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## DJRansome

Females can have the dirty and beard coloration as well. And mbuna can crossbreed with peacocks.


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## eagl97

DJRansome said:


> Females can have the dirty and beard coloration as well. And mbuna can crossbreed with peacocks.


Ok thanks


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## MCKP

Why not seperate your large male to his own tank, and see if he 'clears' up?? Or take your smaller male(s) and seperate them to see if that chills out your big dude.... If it does, then keep him and swap your males for females, and if it doesn't, try getting rid of him and hope your little guys don't take on the same role...

I have one large male, Oswald, and he has the beard alot when he is playing Casanova, but his gets DARK, but it cleans up when he is happy and the little guys leave him alone.... I have 5 males and a female(no not on purpose!) We have just come to live with his 'morning after' look and find it humorous now.....


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## bossfish

To the best of my knowledge most of the undesireable traits in aquarium strains are found in wild fish. I had the chance to see a group of real wildcaught yellow labs several years ago and honestly I wasn't as impressed as I thought I would be. I've seen pictures of wildcaught fish that were stunning but the ones I saw in person weren't even as nice as mine. Some of the fish had light barring, some had white bellies. Some of the dominant males looked pretty clean but had sooty faces. The one thing that they did have that was better than most strains is excellent black markings on the fins of both males and females. I got some F1 fry from these fish and they were all over the place in quality. Some of them were great and some were fish I would have culled at an early age if they came from my breeders. I attempted to improve the strain of yellow labs I was working on by spawning the F1 fish wth mine. The fry weren't as nice as either strain. Anyways here's a picture of one of my F1 males from a few years ago. His head is turned but you can still see that he has a black face.










P.S. I like the black faces on the males. I realize I'm in the minority on this though.


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## stnick80

bossfish said:


> To the best of my knowledge most of the undesireable traits in aquarium strains are found in wild fish. I had the chance to see a group of real wildcaught yellow labs several years ago and honestly I wasn't as impressed as I thought I would be. I've seen pictures of wildcaught fish that were stunning but the ones I saw in person weren't even as nice as mine. Some of the fish had light barring, some had white bellies. Some of the dominant males looked pretty clean but had sooty faces. The one thing that they did have that was better than most strains is excellent black markings on the fins of both males and females. I got some F1 fry from these fish and they were all over the place in quality. Some of them were great and some were fish I would have culled at an early age if they came from my breeders. I attempted to improve the strain of yellow labs I was working on by spawning the F1 fish wth mine. The fry weren't as nice as either strain. Anyways here's a picture of one of my F1 males from a few years ago. His head is turned but you can still see that he has a black face.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. I like the black faces on the males. I realize I'm in the minority on this though.


The problem with Lion's Cove yellow labs is that there are two varieties found in Lion's Cove and they are often shipped together. I believe the labs from the northern part are all yellow and the labs from the southern part have white bellies. The two different strains are often combined together. I don't like the white bellied yellow labs so when I buy I always want to see the colony. The two variations should be kept seperately but sadly this is not always the case.

I don't mind the black face on the males either. I've never had a good looking male that didn't get it when spawning.


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## GaFishMan1181

*@ stnick80*..... Have you personal had or seen wild caught labs with bearding to back up your statement that wild Caught Labs get bearding as well.

I would assume they would but have no proof. Just wondering, since you said that statement, if you have had wild caught labs that had bearding?

I was under the impression wild caught yellow labs are very hard to get.

*@bossfish*.... What collection point are your F1s from? what collection point were the wilds you saw from?


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## Number6

+1 on GaFishMan1181's questions. 
I asked the same question earlier but it was buried quick.

How did you guys confirm the authenticity of the wild caught claim? and did the actual wild caughts have the traits?


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## bossfish

The wildcaughts I saw were from lions cove. I did see wildcaught males with bearding. Are you sure there are two varieties from lions cove or is it possible that there is a lot of variation in that population? I ask this because the wild fish threw some babies that were almost perfect and some that were garbage. Wild lions cove labs were almost impossible to get and they were only collected a couple of times as far as I know. They could be fished out of the lake now for all I know. I think you had to know someone to get your hands on them. Personally I believe that the wild fish that I saw were not the cream of the crop and most of the nice fish had been cherry picked out of the group and they were what was left over. As far as proof of thier wildness goes that could be tricky. Since fish aren't registered and papered like dog's and horses hobbyists are forced to rely on the word of the people they get thier stock from. I know that the person who had them is an exeptionally honest and has a good reputation.


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## mightyevil

For what it's worth...Here are some pictures of mine, all my fish have nice dark black dorsal and anal fins, there are 3 of them that are nice and bright and there are two that are displaying black in their face or vertical bars.

I have the biggest one who I assume to be the alpha male and it is very nice, then I have the next one in size which has dark baring and a super dark face, the next biggest one is starting to show some dark baring and the final two are nice and bright, so, three nice ones and two dark ones...

Here is the second to biggest Lab with the worst case of blackness...








Here he is again...









Here is my largest, very nice looking but I could not get a decent picture of him he is 4-5" big...









I would also like to know what this coloration means... :roll:


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## GaFishMan1181

bossfish said:


> The wildcaughts I saw were from lions cove. I did see wildcaught males with bearding. Are you sure there are two varieties from lions cove or is it possible that there is a lot of variation in that population? I ask this because the wild fish threw some babies that were almost perfect and some that were garbage. Wild lions cove labs were almost impossible to get and they were only collected a couple of times as far as I know. They could be fished out of the lake now for all I know. I think you had to know someone to get your hands on them. Personally I believe that the wild fish that I saw were not the cream of the crop and most of the nice fish had been cherry picked out of the group and they were what was left over. As far as proof of thier wildness goes that could be tricky. Since fish aren't registered and papered like dog's and horses hobbyists are forced to rely on the word of the people they get thier stock from. I know that the person who had them is an exeptionally honest and has a good reputation.


Out of Ad Konings book "At Lion's Cove there are two different populations: the one found along the northern part exhibit more yellow then that found along the southern side, which is yellow on the upper part of the body but white on the lower half."

So yes there are two populations of the Lion's cove collection point.

I also emailed someone who has been importing wild cichlids for over 15 years from africa and he told me yellow labs are super rare to get. He has had a couple in the past but the price was $150-$200 a pair.

If the ones you saw were wild Lion's cove there is a good chance there were northern and southern Lion's cove labs in one shipment. The southern Lion's cove labs have lighter black markings on the fins and a white stomach. The northern is the more pure yellow with nice markings like everyone wants.


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## stnick80

Number6 said:


> +1 on GaFishMan1181's questions.
> I asked the same question earlier but it was buried quick.
> 
> How did you guys confirm the authenticity of the wild caught claim? and did the actual wild caughts have the traits?


Not many hobbyists can confirm with 100% certainty that a fish is WC or not. Like most enthusiastic hobbyists I try to get my information from a reputable source. I spoke to one of the US importers that receives fish from Stuart Grants facility at great length on the topic of WC yellow labs. I trust that the information I received is accurate. I currently have several tanks full of WC fish. However, I have no way to actually confirm that they are. I have to trust who I am dealing with. Unfortunately, I've never had the opportunity to pick up a WC group. If they were available more often, I would love to jump on a group regardless of cost. They don't really collect them because they are so rare in Lion's Cove that it just isn't profitable to collect them.

I wish I could provide you with more concrete evidence. It might be possible for me to get some pictures of the WC fish from the importer.

Sorry I didn't answer earlier. I didn't see your post. It got buried quickly.


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## Number6

stnick80 said:


> I wish I could provide you with more concrete evidence.


No need. All we can do is our best to trace back to an importer/ exporter and ensure they are valid people!

I just wanted to make sure some effort had been put in and the answer wasn't the usual "the person from craigslist said they were wild caught" :lol:


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## GaFishMan1181

*@stnick80* - I also get my wild caughts from and importer that uses Stuart Grants facility as an exporter. I trust who i get my wilds from as much as i could anybody without personally seeing them being taken out of the water.


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## CutieSusieQ

*mightyevil* that is pretty much what my big male looks like...dark faced!

I might remove him and see if it clears up like someone suggested. I just wanna see! Hmmm


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## Mudkicker

i must admit that i never did figure out why some have egg spots and others do not. does anyone have a concrete explanation for this?

M


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## stnick80

The importer sent me a picture of the WC yellow labs they had. Keep in mind they were probably under a bit of stress from the long trip to the US. However, you can see how selective breeding has helped this species in captivity. Nevertheless, I would still buy a WC group. Look at all the black on their fins. Lots of potential in a selective breeding project!



















Keep in mind these are not my pictures and I take no credit for them whatsoever.

Here a couple pictures of my best lookin' lab and his knocked up female.




























The female is hard to photograph as she hides a lot so I had to take what I could get. She is very big and it looks like she has a ton of babies! They should be very nice babies.

Enjoy!


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## Number6

stnick80 said:


> The importer sent me a picture of the WC yellow labs they had.


I've seen many a photo and real life wild caught lab and I apologize for my disbelief but I must say... I do not believe that those are WC. IF they are... then they are truly the bottom of the barrel!

Now if they are WC... then it clearly shows that the wild population carries the trait!


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## GaFishMan1181

The only pictures i have seen of wild caughts are in Ad Konings 4th edition book and those labs look AMAZING. Of course they are in their natural habitat and have no need to be stressed.

If those are indeed wild caughts then they are super duper stressed and yes it does show that wilds can get bearding and barring because that is pretty severe.


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## stnick80

Number6 said:


> stnick80 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The importer sent me a picture of the WC yellow labs they had.
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen many a photo and real life wild caught lab and I apologize for my disbelief but I must say... I do not believe that those are WC. IF they are... then they are truly the bottom of the barrel!
> 
> Now if they are WC... then it clearly shows that the wild population carries the trait!
Click to expand...

Believe it. They are wild. They are probably very stressed out and are possibly even being medicated in a quarantine tank. As you may or may not know there are only 3 importers in the US. These pictures came from one of them. If we cannot trust them, who can we trust? They stated that they threw outstanding F1 fry. I didn't dig these photographs up. I requested them so I could share them with you. Don't be so quick to dismiss them as fakes.

Most of the photos people have seen are from photographers like Ad Konings. Ad Konings is an outstanding photographer. It also seems from seeing thousands of his pictures he finds an exemplary specimen to shoot. I've ordered WC fish based on a photo I've seen in one of the books only to be disappointed. When only the creme of the crop has photographs taken it doesn't represent the entire species accurately.


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## GaFishMan1181

No doubt you are right about there being alot of variation in the wild and there are ugly ducklings out there. I think we are so shocked because how bad they actually do look.

If i saw those fish in a local fish store unlabeled i would walk by them and think "wow those are some terrible looking labs". I think most would agree with me on that.

Good work on getting those pics. I guess the mystery is solved. If even wilds can get bearding and barring that bad then CutieSusieQ you have nothing to worry about.

Of course it will still be considered an undesirable trait and most would want a pure face lab over one with bearding.


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## Number6

stnick80 said:


> Don't be so quick to dismiss them as fakes.


 I'm not dismissing the photos at all, which is why I went on to agree with you on your conclusions assuming that they are true WC labs. There is always the chance that someone prior to the importer lied, so I am allowed to remain a doubting Thomas :wink:

I appreciate the effort you went to to get these photos! :thumb:


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## mightyevil

CutieSusieQ said:


> *mightyevil* that is pretty much what my big male looks like...dark faced!
> 
> I might remove him and see if it clears up like someone suggested. I just wanna see! Hmmm


Let me know if that works :wink:


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## CutieSusieQ

mightyevil said:


> CutieSusieQ said:
> 
> 
> 
> *mightyevil* that is pretty much what my big male looks like...dark faced!
> 
> I might remove him and see if it clears up like someone suggested. I just wanna see! Hmmm
> 
> 
> 
> Let me know if that works :wink:
Click to expand...

I will...but not sure when I am going to remove him. Right now my 20 gallon "holding" tank has a bully male Cobalt in it that I removed from the same 55 gallon tank my yellow lab is currently in now. I plan to have the Cobalt re-homed by this weekend, then I will put the lab into the empty (fishless) 20 gallon and see what happens.


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## CutieSusieQ

GaFishMan1181 said:


> Good work on getting those pics. I guess the mystery is solved. If even wilds can get bearding and barring that bad then CutieSusieQ you have nothing to worry about.
> 
> Of course it will still be considered an undesirable trait and most would want a pure face lab over one with bearding.


I want to see what happens when I remove him from the tank and get him away from the females for a little bit.


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## CutieSusieQ

Ok everyone... I just wanted to add an update to this thread... Check this out ...

I removed the biggest male that had the darkest face to another empty tank just to see if his face would turn yellow again once he was away from the other fish.... well, it didn't!! But it did lighten up a bit. Instead of looking black, it was more grey-like... I kept him in the empty tank alone for 7 days. I finally added him back to the 55 gallon b/c I felt sorry for him, lol and as soon as I did, his face went dark black again... I also have another male lab in the same 55 gallon whose face is turning dark too... But guess what?? Today I decided to do a really good cleaning underneath all my rocks (which are mostly black feather rocks) and I removed ALL the rock from my tank. And when I did, every single yellow lab in my tank looked exactly the same. All of them were a bright yellow with no signs of black or grey anywhere on their body!! However, as soon as I put the rock back in my tank and the fish started choosing places to hide again, my male yellow labs' faces turned dark again!!! It was the wierdest thing ever!! Anyone else experience this???


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## emptyhead

CutieSusieQ said:


> Ok everyone... I just wanted to add an update to this thread... Check this out ...
> 
> I removed the biggest male that had the darkest face to another empty tank just to see if his face would turn yellow again once he was away from the other fish.... well, it didn't!! But it did lighten up a bit. Instead of looking black, it was more grey-like... I kept him in the empty tank alone for 7 days. I finally added him back to the 55 gallon b/c I felt sorry for him, lol and as soon as I did, his face went dark black again... I also have another male lab in the same 55 gallon whose face is turning dark too... But guess what?? Today I decided to do a really good cleaning underneath all my rocks (which are mostly black feather rocks) and I removed ALL the rock from my tank. And when I did, every single yellow lab in my tank looked exactly the same. All of them were a bright yellow with no signs of black or grey anywhere on their body!! However, as soon as I put the rock back in my tank and the fish started choosing places to hide again, my male yellow labs' faces turned dark again!!! It was the wierdest thing ever!! Anyone else experience this???


.

Yes! When I kept a group of yellow labs with 5 other all male mbuna in a 55g. I took out all of my rocks and added 5 rocks that were just tall vertically, but did not create any caves. The aggression went way down and the colors on all fish looked way better.

The problem was that the fish just swam around in a funny pattern. I don't think it was natural behavior. It is like when I do water changes on my 150 and take out all of the rockwork, the fish just all swim together peacefully - but who wants to watch that?

It is kind of like putting the fish on ritalin. Their ADD is more tolerable, but they lose a bit of their personality.


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## lil_flame33

This is my man.... he has no barring or any black marks except for his mustache... it drives me nuts... I can't remember if he's always had it or if he just recently got it. I didn't notice it when i first got him.

Sorry to hijack this, but ... if anyone has a clean strain for sale and willing to ship... i am looking....


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## CutieSusieQ

emptyhead said:


> Yes! When I kept a group of yellow labs with 5 other all male mbuna in a 55g. I took out all of my rocks and added 5 rocks that were just tall vertically, but did not create any caves. The aggression went way down and the colors on all fish looked way better.
> 
> The problem was that the fish just swam around in a funny pattern. I don't think it was natural behavior. It is like when I do water changes on my 150 and take out all of the rockwork, the fish just all swim together peacefully - but who wants to watch that?
> 
> It is kind of like putting the fish on ritalin. Their ADD is more tolerable, but they lose a bit of their personality.


I am gettin ready to switch my feather rock out for some Texas holey rock, so I am hoping that when I do that my male yellow labs' faces will stop being black... I have heard that if you remove dark tunnels and caves that the fish will be less aggressive b/c they won't feel like they need to protect their spot all the time.. Perhaps my Cobalts are keeping my labs stressed b/c the Cobalts are very territorial.... It was crazy seeing how quickly my male labs turned pure yellow again once the dark hiding spots were out of my tank today. It was amazing actually!!... I would much prefer to see my fish more than just at feeding time to be honest, lol. So I am hoping the holey rock will allow me to see them more as well as help their color.


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## DJRansome

Makes some sense. They get excited when they are feeling territorial. The color darkens when he is defending his spot in the rocks. If you take away his territory...nothing to defend.


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