# Help with SA dwarf choice... dicrossus, laetacara, rams?



## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

Hi all,

I've been working on a heavily-planted, 3-foot, 65 gallon tank. It has an Eheim 2217. I live in the Pacific NW where the water is very soft and has a pH generally around 6.6-6.8. I keep the temp 78-79-ish.
Here's a photo of the current setup.









Here's my current stocking:
- 6 Daisy's rice fish (Oryzias Woworae)
- 5 Purple pencilfish (Nannostomus rubrocaudatus) - would like to get 3 more when they are available.
- 10 Marbled hatchetfish
- 12 Spotted blue-eye rainbowfish (Pseudomugil Gertrudae)
- 8 Kuhli loaches
- 2 Stiphodon Elegans Gobies

The only other additions at this point would be:
- Farlowella acus (not sure if I have enough "room" for a pair/trio, but at least 1)
- 2, hopefully 4 dwarf cichlids depending on species.

SO.... now that that's out of the way.... I need your help with my dwarf selection. Many years ago I had a tank with German Blue Rams and I just fell in love with them. So initially I wanted to have them again. Doing some internet reading, I got pushed towards Bolivians as they are supposedly less sensitive and generally happier at a lower temperature. But at the same time, in the past my German Blues were I think happy in the high 70s... Probably tank-raised and from this very reputable LFS with exceptionally healthy fish, so maybe I just lucked out?

I also flirted with the idea of Apistos, however when I see them in the store, even though they're beautiful, I just prefer the curious nature of the Rams. That "whatcha doin?" temperament.

I have also seen some Dicrossus Maculatus and they are so beautiful! They seemed less interactive than the Rams, but I actually am drawn to them over the Apistos.

I have seen some Laetacara Curviceps, and they are really cute and gorgeous and seem to have that similar "Hi there!" temperament. So that led me to do a ton of reading on the Laetacara. Actually I think the Dorsigera are more beautiful (I am drawn to reds) but I've read that they can be more aggressive. I love my current fish and don't want a fish that will bully them. I've read about wild dorsigera that have bulled and/or killed schoolers and even hatchetfish! I don't want that. But I've also read about Dorsigera that live peacefully with another pair of dwarves like Rams.

I've read that tank-raised cichlids are often less aggressive than their wild counterparts. This may be a part of the equation. And I know that the layout and scaping of the tank can also make a difference.

So, in my ideal world I'd have a Laetacara dorsigera pair and another pair - Dicrossus? Rams?

I have an amazing LFS with lots of variety, but they dont' currently have Dorsigera. They have Thayeri and Araguaiae, but both are wild. I know Thayeri tend to be more aggressive. They do have tank-raised Curviceps. 
They also currently have tons of Rams and do have tank-raised and wild Dicrossus.
http://www.wetspottropicalfish.com/inde ... &Itemid=64

Help! I'm so torn!

Do you think that a tank-raised pair of Laetacara could work in my community tank? Could I do Dorsigera or should I stick with the possibly safer bet of the Curviceps?
And if so, could I do another dwarf species? Remember that my tank has a 3-ft footprint.

What would you do if you were me? :-?

Thanks for reading my novel!


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## aquariam (Feb 11, 2010)

Pair of Bolivian rams, pair of silver angels. That tank wants angelfish. All those swords..

I'm sort of torn between suggesting the checkerboards and the rams because that tank/water is good for checkerboards.. and they match your aquascape better IMO. They're probably what I'd get although the Bolivian Rams might be prettier to some. I feel the water is too cold for blue/german/whatever you want to call them rams. So I'd X them out. Laetacara sp could work too if you're into them. So could a lot of things but if that's what you're narrowed down to I'd say either bolivians or checkerboards. And I'd really consider a single or pair of really good quality silvers with nice solid black bars. JM2C. They won't mess with anything in there.

Another thing that's not a cichlid but I think would look awesome instead of the angels if you like would be pearl gourami(s) (Trichogaster leeri).


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

Thanks much for your input! I'm not really that into angels... I don't know why. I know it's a tall tank and they'd probably be happy there, but I'd much rather have cichlids. Same with the gouramis (though I've had both angels and gouramis in my previous tank).

As far as the plants/aquascaping, it's really just taking hold. The tank is still relatively new and I just wanted lots of plants to support the ecosystem balance. So I'm also *very* open to suggestions in that regard also! I think that the swords will eventually take over so I'll probably need to pull one or switch one or two out with other plants. I also have another small curvy piece of driftwood matching the current one that I'm trying to get waterlogged and may add that in there if it's not too busy.

Suggest away!

I'm definitely into Laetacara. 
You say you'd choose bolivians or checkerboards... can both not co-exist (a pair of each)? If not, how many would you do?

I don't know enough about the dicrossus but I know that it's better when doing Bolivians or Laetacara to get a grouping and let a pair find themselves, and then return/sell the remainder.


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## aquariam (Feb 11, 2010)

You could probably keep a pair of checkerboards and a pair of bolivians if you keep the planting thick like that permanently for lots of hiding spots.

Angels ARE cichlids, btw. :thumb:

My only thing was that you're going to have 'centerpiece' fish all on the bottom (checkers and bolivians prefer to be near the bottom) and nothing near the top which is where pearl gouramis and angels prefer to be.


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

Yes, you're right about angels being cichlids! But you know what I meant - dwarves! 

The planting will always be thick, it's what I prefer (and I think most of my fish do too). If I changed things out it would be the types and arrangement of plants.

I know that they like the bottom.... Hmmmm.... The thing is that right now I have a nice balance of swimming levels. I had kind of planned it with bottom 1/3-dwelling cichlids in mind. Since it's a tall tank I tried to get fish at each level without too much crowding at each.

Top to bottom:
Hatchetfish
Rainbowfish
Pencilfish
Rice fish
Farlowella (eventually)
Gobies
Kuhlis

Thanks again for your input, I do appreciate it all and I take it all in.


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## BigJag (Sep 26, 2011)

magpie said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've been working on a heavily-planted, 3-foot, 65 gallon tank. It has an Eheim 2217. I live in the Pacific NW where the water is very soft and has a pH generally around 6.6-6.8. I keep the temp 78-79-ish.
> Here's a photo of the current setup.
> ...


 The Laetecara Curviceps are a very cool fish. I just got a pair for my 20 gallon tank and 4 Bolivian Rams for a 35 gal. The Curviceps were very timid for a while but are now coming out of their shell a bit. I would definitely recomend them for your tank. As for the Bolivians I keep my water around 80-82 degrees if you do decide to go with them instead.


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## aquariam (Feb 11, 2010)

Viejita trio?


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## reddhawkk (Dec 14, 2011)

I would go with the Dicrossus and Bolivian Rams.


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

BigJag said:


> The Laetecara Curviceps are a very cool fish. I just got a pair for my 20 gallon tank and 4 Bolivian Rams for a 35 gal. The Curviceps were very timid for a while but are now coming out of their shell a bit. I would definitely recomend them for your tank. As for the Bolivians I keep my water around 80-82 degrees if you do decide to go with them instead.


What do you keep each of them with for other fish? How long have you had them? How much do your curviceps chase each other/other fish, and are they tank-raised or wild?


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

What about apistos? A trio (1m 2f) would be great in that tank.


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

aquariam said:


> Viejita trio?


Very pretty. I mentioned that Apistos don't appeal to me as much personality-wise, but you can convince me otherwise. 

I've only hung out with them in the LFS. (Even in the LFS the Laetacara and Rams want to see what you're doing.)


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

reddhawkk said:


> I would go with the Dicrossus and Bolivian Rams.


I'm tempted... I'm not sure I could do Laetacara and anything else. Might have to choose a pair each of Rams/Dicrossus or one pair of Laetacara. Still not sure the Laetacara could hang peacefully with my other fish at all, let alone another dwarf.

Or Apistos and Rams?

I'd love to hear why people love Apistos. Sell me on them! 

EDIT: Is there a way to multi-quote on this forum?


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

Sigh...

Staring at my tank tonight. Maybe you're right about a couple of angels.  I'll have to see if there's a different variety. One of the reasons that they're not my favorite is because they're so common. I'll have to see what the LFS has, and do a little more research.


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## aquariam (Feb 11, 2010)

They're common, but high quality angels are not. What you usually see is junk. Get a pair of really high quality angels and they won't disappoint. Silver (black vertical bars) are the only ones that would look good in that setup IMO. You could do Kois or maps too but I don't think it'd gel with the plant setup.

The more I look at it I think angel/bolivian ram/checkerboard is going to look the best. I can't sell you on apistos as I find them dull personality wise. They just have good colors.


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

Agreed with the Apistos... I'd just prefer the interaction with the more plain-looking Bolivians than the colors of the flashy Apistos. However originally I had thought Bolivian with Apisto - I'd get the best of both worlds. 

I'm going to my LFS today to get the Farlowella. I'll peek around and see what they have - if anyone has high-quality angels, they are it. I still have to read up about them. How prone are they to aggression to each other? What kind of grouping would I do - a pair? What about smaller fish - my Gertrudae are very small babies right now.

So if I were to do say a pair of angels, would you then do a pair of one of the other (Ram/Checkerboard) or could I do a pair of all three? I've read that with the rams you should get a group, find a pair, and return/sell the remainder. Does the same hold with angels or does that not matter as much?


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

I just read that angels don't like any water movement as it stresses them. I have an Eheim 2217, the spraybar is pointed at one of the short walls, but there is some current that backflows across the tank, mostly at the bottom corner, but there is some on the one side of the tank.

I also read that they like to be in large groups, 6 would be ideal, and I'm not sure with the 3-ft tank that I have room for a group to keep them happy.

My LFS does have some Leopoldi angels right now, which I guess are smaller, but they're still a 4-inch fish.

Thoughts on this?


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## Cblanche01 (Jan 18, 2012)

I would also suggest apisto cacatuoides. They are a very easy apisto to keep. I currently have a trio of them with my bolivan and german blue rams, they all get along well if they have their own hiding spot.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

I'd say a pair of angels at most in a 3 foot tank; they don't need to be in groups, and they don't mind flow that much (I have quite a bit of flow in my 50L, and none of the angels seem to care). As for apistos, I find that the females can be quite interesting come breeding time. They're a bit more aggressive than rams, but they will also constantly bicker over territory. Plus, since a lot of apistos are harem breeders, you usually see their courting rituals and dances a lot more often than you would with rams. Also, I was referring more to wild caught or F1 apistos, as opposed to line bred, tankraised ones, especially with A. cacatuoides and A. agassizii; the wild caught ones aren't as colourful, but I find that they show much better breeding behaviour and courtship than the line bred ones do.


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## Just Me... (Dec 27, 2011)

Female apistos are just about the most entertaining fish to watch. They absolutely hate each other! Which leads to various squabbles of all sorts. They even steal each others' fry. If you don't like them, the Laetacara species will definitely please you. Have you looked at African dwarf cichlids, though? Teleogramma and Steatocranus are two very unique genera. What about keyhole cichlids? These are very underrated fish. Nannacara anomala? Another awesome dwarf.

Another adea... Scrap the whole dwarf cichlid and angelfish thing and spend some money on discus. I have a pair in a 75 gallon very heavily planted tank and they're fine. The whole 'discus need 100% water changes and bare bottom tanks' is a load of... well, I'll not say what it is. Other than very, very untrue. Discus also don't need groups to survive, nor are they picky eaters. They're actually tougher than GBRs are, in my experience. I've not had one die on me once (I had 6; sold the rest when the pair formed). The amount of GBRs, however... we'll just not mention that. I seem not not be able to keep the fish alive. Anyway, the key to discus is a lot of research and good stock.

I do like the dwarf cichlid idea, though. Keep posting pics; the tank's glorious!


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

I haven't really considered african cichlids because initially I was going for a SA theme - however I got off track with the rice fish and the rainbows. 

I think the angels might eat my gertrudae rainbows. They are very small right now. I'm still not sure about them.

My LFS didn't actually have the Laetacara Araguaiae ("Buckelkopf") in the store today. They're in their holding buliding right now. They'll call me when they're ready for the actual store. (They have another location for raising babies and acclimatizing new imports - one reason why I get such wonderful healthy fish!) I've heard they're gorgeous. I'm leaning toward the Laetacara right now, with a possible Dicrossus tank-mate if that will work.

We shall see.

I really, really appreciate the feedback and input everyone! I'd love to hear more!


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## Just Me... (Dec 27, 2011)

Your LFS is the Wet Spot? So is mine. Epic place. Any Laetacara will do fine in your tank I am sure. I keep Curviceps with Dicrossus filamentosa. Mine're a little prone to nibble on my cabomba, so if you have related plants, supplement their diet with spirulina. They're great fish. Just underrated and not the most highly available. Hold off on the angels til the rainbows are a little bigger. The adults the Spot has now are pretty nice, but angels generally do better if raised with their tankmates from a young age. Their Dicrossus are small. You might want to add them first.


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

Yes, we're lucky to have The Wet Spot as our LFS!

Do your Curviceps breed at all? What size tank do you have them in? I'd love to hear more about them, see photos and the like, in this thread or the other.


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## Just Me... (Dec 27, 2011)

I _had_ Curviceps. I still have the male, but the female got old and died, and I'm expecting it of him soon. Their pairing bond is that strong. They are easy to breed (i.e. not picky about water parameters as long as it is clean) and the fry are tough. It's hard to get a pair by getting two as they are choosy about their life companions, and not just any one of the opposite sex will work. They pair up at an extremely young age (at about an inch and a half). The best thing to do is to get 4-6 and let them pair up accordingly. Keep the pair and keep them away from the other ones (give the others to the LFS as a donation); they don't like intruders. I never tried to keep any of the fry, and considering they were kept with a lot of great fry eaters (other SA cichlids), none survived. I now regret not raising any, but come summer I'm going to get a few and thrown them in a tub outside with a few plants and a heater to keep things warm on the coldest nights. I love these fish. Not the most colorful, but still, they make up for it in other ways.


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