# Check up on some fish



## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

Im not sure if these guys are normal or not. Everyones pretty small. Everyones swimming around, noone specific is getting picked on that we can tell. I feed them omega one and sometimes throw in some crushed up cichlid gold. May also throw a little cichlid staple. I generally feed them 2-3 times a day. All they consume within 30 seconds.

My red zebra. His poop looked kind of white earlier. I cant tell if his gills look abnormal. 

















My acei. I cant tell if thats coloration on its fins or spots. He was very hard to get a good pic of. He swims alot and barely stays still. Except for this one pic which i think he posed. He/she does follow me anytime im near the tank. The 2nd pic i think shows what i mean on his anal fin.

















My convict. I believe is a she. Is she fat? Is this this bloat or normal? 

























This mornings test results were ph 7.8, ammonia .25ppm, nitrite .25ppm, nitrate 20ppm. Which resulted in me doing a 50% water change.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Time to do some research and get the fish to suite your tank I think.
Hate to say it but all these guys are rubbish. You want to get a better supilier. I could Id em for you but whats the point? You need to go where they can do this before you buy if you want even halfway decent cichlids that can live together. The cookie cutters here are kind of OK but only if you get Ided stuff at the start. 
Ignore what the seller says, would you follow the advice of a second hand car seller?

Dump these guys back on the seller and never go back there again would be my advice.

All the best James


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

This is something I wrote on one of your posts back on the 24th. 


> Re: New setup, how to judge the cycle?
> 
> Postby Iggy Newcastle » Thu May 23, 2013 7:23 am
> Petsmart testing your water and advising you on stock is where you can go wrong and be mislead. If you bring in a sample of tap water, they'll test it and say you're good to go. What they don't say, or know, is that your water is not from a cycled aquarium. Using water from an established tank will not aid in the cycle. The bacteria develops on the surface of your tank decor, filter media, etc. Soaking a sponge for a couple hours most likely did very little, as well. Best to introduce a sponge or media into a filter on an existing cycled tank and allow to build up a culture for at least a couple weeks.
> ...


You're still battlling the cycle. Your fish will not work long term in a tank that small. I cannot comment on the health of your fish. It sucks to read comments like this and Tropheus', but just trying to help.


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

This is a different tank. This is the 30 gallon. Its cycled as far as i know. Been running 2 weeks up until today i had 0 ammonia 0 nitrite, 20 nitrate. We used stuff from the 10 to jump start it.

So were just going to bash the fish and not answer the op? Fuck em, let em die.

I have multiple suppliers. Petsmart, Petco, Todays Pet, House of Tropicals. HOT is a major fish store in my area. I have heard many different "expert" opinions. These are the fish i have. They arent going anywhere unless they die. Some experts say im fine, some say im not. Right now my concern is the fishs health. Noones fighting, everyones getting along great. They eat right. Im just curious if the pics show any issues. Research is what i have done but bc there are so many mixed opinions i thought id ask here.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Didn't mean to come off wrong. I believe that quote I put up was about your 30 gallon, and the cichlids you put in there. If it isn't, I apologize. I cannot comment on the health of your fish because I am not experienced enough to do so. No bashing, man. I still have an acei from Petsmart. He is a great fish. Very handsome, and has lived through several medical treatments.

I'm sure a moderator will advise you further, but first thing they'll say is to get your water straight, stock appropriately and plan for the future outcome.

The forum is here to help. While I've only been here a year, I have not witnessed any cruel treatment of other members.


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Didn't mean to come off wrong. I believe that quote I put up was about your 30 gallon, and the cichlids you put in there. If it isn't, I apologize. I cannot comment on the health of your fish because I am not experienced enough to do so. No bashing, man. I still have an acei from Petsmart. He is a great fish. Very handsome, and has lived through several medical treatments.
> 
> I'm sure a moderator will advise you further, but first thing they'll say is to get your water straight, stock appropriately and plan for the future outcome.
> 
> The forum is here to help. While I've only been here a year, I have not witnessed any cruel treatment of other members.


I dont think you were doing that. Sorry about that. Ill edit my post. Im more concerned about the post above yours. Why are my fish rubbish?

Well im not sure if they are sick or ok. 
All my lfs's told me my tank is cycled and good to go. All of them also said my mix of fish should be fine. Some people dont like to mix the Americans with the Africans but plently say it doesnt matter. 
I also keep hearing dont focus on the water parameters of their lakes. They have been bred in the tap water in my area for years and its best to keep them that way. I used the cichlid mix which is supposed to make it close.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Maybe post a pic of the mbuna, especially the zebra in Unidentified. Shape looks off to me but maybe it's because they are small.

The smallest tank I would put a red zebra and an acei in would be a rectangle that is 48" by 18" in case that helps.


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

So we dont even know if he looks sick? These pic are taken by an iphone 5 and while the fish are moving


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

It may be hard to diagnose a fish by picture alone. Why do you think they're sick? White feces?

Gotta get that tank cycled. First and foremost. The LFS says its good, but your tests tell different.


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> It may be hard to diagnose a fish by picture alone. Why do you think they're sick? White feces?
> 
> Gotta get that tank cycled. First and foremost. The LFS says its good, but your tests tell different.


The somewhat white feces on the red zebra. I cant tell if the red zebras gills look a red or thats normal. I cant tell if those are spots on the aceis anal fin. I also cant tell if my convict is bloated or is growing as normal, or maybe just fat. Everyone seems to be acting fine. No different than normal.

I thought 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and some nitrate ment the tank is cycled?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Your initial post said .25 ammo and nitrite... Any sign is cause for alarm. Whenever I test water, nitrite is the most lightest blue ever.


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Your initial post said .25 ammo and nitrite... Any sign is cause for alarm. Whenever I test water, nitrite is the most lightest blue ever.


Last 2 weeks they have been 0,0,20. This morning there was the change. Im awaiting test results now from the gf.


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

Gf just checked. 0,0, 10-20ppm nitrate


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't see any obvious sign of illness on the red/orange fish. He does look small/skinny, especially if he really is an estherae because they have a blocky shape and your fish is streamlined. But maybe he is really young. Some reddish color on the gill plates is not unusual expecially on a very young fish since they are fairly transparent.

The gill plates are an unusual color on the acei. Also can't tell from the pic if the bottom fin is split or just the photo.

IDK about the convict, no experience with them or keeping them with Malawi.

Some fishkeepers want to own and believe they have purchased fish that look like they would look in Lake Malawi...kind of like having a slice of Africa in your living room. They would be unhappy to learn their fish are not representative and WOULD return the fish to the vendor for mis-representing what was sold. Others want the fish regardless of their genus and species and collection point and once owned, feel an obligation to the living organism for which they have taken responsibility. Neither is right or wrong, just different. Enjoy your fish!


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

DJRansome said:


> I don't see any obvious sign of illness on the red/orange fish. He does look small/skinny, especially if he really is an estherae because they have a blocky shape and your fish is streamlined. But maybe he is really young. Some reddish color on the gill plates is not unusual expecially on a very young fish since they are fairly transparent.
> 
> The gill plates are an unusual color on the acei. Also can't tell from the pic if the bottom fin is split or just the photo.
> 
> ...


Thank you kind sir!

The i think his gills are just like that in the pic. Normally they are blue like the rest of him. As for his fin, its not a split. I believe its just color. My gf looked at it and said hes always had it.

All the fish are very young. Most are still under 1".


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Ok so whats wrong with these guys? The Convics belly is very distended and the barring does not match up well and the head seems very far from a normal convicts head looks like long term it will have problems feeding.
The Orange guys mouth kind of looks yellow Lab like but it can not be a yellow lab because of the lack of black on the fins thus prob some Malawi hybrid with M.estherae in it yep think some gill irritation there. The "P"sp. "Acei" looks fine apart from some gill irritation, the Jewel already looks very ill, the Pseudotropheus demasoni looks very nice.
Its a hellish mix to try and pull off in any size tank long term but yep at 1" you can prob get any random cichlids to live together in whatever tank size.
The big problem is the future as they grow and display thier real inner joys 

Dumping em back on the seller is not because they are not great fish but a welfare issue, we should not be encouraging folk to sell ill and disfigured fish by buying them. It just makes em buy more and sell more and pays towards the missery of more fish.

All the best James


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Ok guys I know I am being harsh. But I realy want the OP to keep cichlids and enjoy it. That means going to somewhere that sells decent cichlids and gives good advice or doing a bit of basic research before buying.
This is kind of a set up you would expect from a 10 year old going out and picking up cichlids like sweetys. I will have one yellow one one blue one one stripy one one red one etc and expecting it to work out fine in a tiny tank. I thought the hobby and cichlid sellers had moved on from this years ago.

All the best James


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The idea of an estherae/lab mix did occur to me as well.


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

As far as the jewel, what should i do for it? Anything for the acei? I think they do look a little weird shaped in the pic bc of my camera. They are constantly moving . The zebra and acei didnt look any different than the other guys in their store tanks.

The convict, well, im not sure. She(i think) is kind of a pig. Orignanlly though, she was the same shape as most others in her tank. In my area they all look the same at each store. But for the belly, just over eating?


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

Just got off duty, got home. The gf hasnt fed them since last night. Pleased to say the convict looks normal again. Bellys not sticking out. Maybe it just ate too much? I didnt think fish digested that quick but it has been over 24 hours since i last saw them.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Generaly poor fish survive for two weeks to 6 weeks before dieing.
These seem to have come from a LFS most of which use centralised systems and every fish is exposed to every common disease.
Yep the big belly could be overfeeding but it could also be bloat (yep CA cichlids get it too) can attack the skin and gills as well as the gut (Malawi cichlids tend to suffer from it in the gut white poop being the clasic sine before swelling and death) CA and WA on the gills and skin often leading to Hole in the Head (HITH) and Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE).
Main prob is the Mbuna kind of have to be crowded in well filtered tanks to stop any one becoming hyper domminant and stressing out the others. Where as Jewels (WA) like to hold an undisputed territory in a sparsly populated tank, as do the CA cichlids like Convicts.
Oh correction  seems its not a pure Pseudotropheus demionsi kind of looks more like a poorly bred Kenyi on later photos. This is bad news. Prob the nastiest Mbuna there is.

You could try Metro etc but its only a short term relief as its a bad mix of species that will lead to stress and disease again and again unless changed.

All the best James


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

Our tanks are definately overfiltered. The aquaclear 70 is built for a tank more than twice the size of ours. If not more. Its adjustable for a 40-70 gallon tank. We leave it on full power.

The 20 gallon has the aquaclear 30 on it but thats a community tank.

Found out today we are getting a 20 gallon bow front for free

As for the fish, i talked it over with the gf. She said well just keep them. If anything happens, we take them back or exchange.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Most of these guys are 55g-75g tank min cichlids when grown.
Your GFs the boss it seems but she could save herself a lot of sadness by acting early and changing these cichlids for a mix for a 20g eg http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/c ... er_20g.php. Before they get too ill/stressed and bitten to move on.

Malawi Mbuna do not turn up untill 40g long http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/c ... er_40g.php
and thats just the smaller less aggressive ones.

Live and learn (waite and see) kind of OK but not when all others experience points to early death of some of your fish?


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

Op was about health....answer was about tank size and agressive species. 
Hmmmmm

Mentioned deformed fish....ok can relate to op. If fish are deformed, why not try to make their life as comfy as possible until they pass? We dont just put retarded kids into a room and let them die. We care for them just like any other human, usually more.

And if my lfs's are so bad, i have no idea how they stay in buisness or anyone in my state keeps fish as pets....

Reading some posts on here reminds me of ar15.com
You didnt spend 4000 on the best noveske rifle and parts possible, so you have junk and it will never work. May as well toss it in the trash and burn it to save the earth from such a junky rifle.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

LFSs stay selling cichlids as for most its a 2 year hobby at most. Later folk learn were to get good cichlids but its only about 1/10 that keep going after their original LFS experiences.
Sadly most folk spending lots of money know little about cichlids. Hence why we are so poorly served. And why second hand tanks are so cheap or given away. :wink:

Me I am wierd been at it for 40 years or so. :wink:


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Kind of wonder should I charge for my advice? Might be taken more seriously.
As you know there is no such thing as a free lunch. :wink:

There again no one is as deaf to good advice as those that do not want to hear the truth.

Yes some look ill. Some look poorly bred. You could treat them. But its all pretty academic as they will get stressed and ill again in such a small tank.

All the best James


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

How do they look ill? My assumptions correct? What treatments should I do?

Whats so poorly bred about them? They looked like every other of their kind in any of my lfs's. I even said the camera does make them look funny.

Ok as for this tank size advice. There are more articles, and people that i have talked to that said a 30 gallon is plenty. Some with 40+ years as well.

Do i want a bigger tank? Yes. Could be working on setting one up for after the move. Right now, 30 and a 20 are what i have. So many people give conficting advice. They even contradict things that are published from credible sources.

As for the agression issues. I have read and heard so many different things.

****, doing research, i just read an article about about a green terror being picked on a and killed by some other smaller and "much less aggressive" fish. Maybe fish are like people, they have different personalities.

The most important thing i read was socializing them at a young age. *** read that in multiple places.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

apollo240 said:


> Whats so poorly bred about them? They looked like every other of their kind in any of my lfs's.


For example the estherae seemed to be the wrong shape, estherae are blocky. It would make sense that all the others in the tank looked the same because they were likely siblings. It's quite common for chain stores to sell hybrid and poorly bred fish.



apollo240 said:


> Ok as for this tank size advice. There are more articles, and people that i have talked to that said a 30 gallon is plenty. Some with 40+ years as well.


If you have a source with 40 years of experience keeping the specific fish and combination you have in a 30G I'd go with his/her advice. But seeking confirmation here is probably just going to frustrate you.



apollo240 said:


> They even contradict things that are published from credible sources.


Yes, I hated that when I was starting out in fishkeeping. Even credible sources contradict each other. Find a source you trust and go with it.



apollo240 said:


> As for the agression issues. I have read and heard so many different things. The most important thing i read was socializing them at a young age. I've read that in multiple places.


 Me too when researching. All I can say is it did not work for me...I have found when the fish mature they behave as expected for that species...they are not more tolerant of long-term tank mates even when they were all fry together.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

apollo240 said:


> Op was about health....answer was about tank size and agressive species.


You are the OP (original poster) but you mean the original question, right?

It's quite common for the answer to the question "my fish are sick" to be "here is how to cure the disease and for the long term you need to change the stock and/or the tank size"

Fish are stressed when in a tank that is too small and/or with incompatible tank mates. If the fish is allowed to be stressed for too long he/she is almost guaranteed to become sick.


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

Thank you DJ. Now Im getting somewhere. Ill keep an eye on them and look for signs of stress. So far noone seems stressed. Everyones swimming around, if i walk up to the tank they come to the front and act like excited little chiuahua's. if i go to one side of the tank they follow me. Sometimes i feel like evan almightly.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Thanks DJ very well put. Sorry apollo240 sometimes I am too confrontational if I think cichlids are going to suffer. 
Kind of a bit of a hypocrit too. Kind of tried these mixes when I started out too, with nothing bigger than some 29gs.


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

24Tropheus said:


> Thanks DJ very well put. Sorry apollo240 sometimes I am too confrontational if I think cichlids are going to suffer.
> Kind of a bit of a hypocrit too. Kind of tried these mixes when I started out too, with nothing bigger than some 29gs.


It happens, sorry if you felt i tried to discredit your knowledge, hope i didnt come across that way. I dont want my pets to suffer in any way.

I am hoping to get atleast a 55 gallon once we move. Its just that right now, that would be too much to transport right now. The 2 we have now are enough. I found out today we are in fact getting another 20 from the gf's coworker. Couldnt turn it down because he was so excited to give it to us lol.

I am searching around for different size tanks though. Trying to decide what i want to get setup with. I want to use the same hoods I have on our 30 and 20. The marineland led hood. I saw they make a 55 gallon kit, which uses 2 24x12 hoods. I was thinking about that. I assume thats most 55 gallon tanks. I would prefer to find one that will use 2 30x12 hoods. I also wish marineland had hoods for wider tanks. Id like to have more than 12" wide, allow the fish more room to turn around.


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

I wonder if a 120 gallon tank that is 48x24x24 would take 4 24x12 hoods? That might be too much for us though. Especially in an apartment.

Something like a 40x20x?? would be nice. I doubt it exists though lol. Atleast i cant find one.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Dunno about your area but here in the UK we can get em made to any size or shape we want. Cost is a bit greater than wholesale price of line produced stuff but only by about 20%, sometimes room space dictates odd shapes.
Eg I got 2 84"x24"x24" tanks made and dilivered for £460, less than the retail price of a 48x15"x18" in many a LFS here. :wink:

My 72"x24"x24" cost me £200 delivered and help getting it onto the stand. But that was exceptionaly cheap too as it originaly cost a lot more new.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Its kind of hard to discuss price. It all kind of depends on if you have to pay retail or have access to wholesale prices here.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Also here if you can go and collect you can pic up second hand big stuff from closing down shops etc for a tiny fraction of even wholesale prices on new stuff.
Takes a bit of work looking but if your short on cash savings can even be worth hiring a van etc.


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