# new to cichlids. confusing bolivian ram behavior



## laurainthesky00 (Apr 18, 2014)

main tank:
65 gallons
-10 cories
-3 honey gourami
-2 otos
-a ton of cherry shrimp

Quarantine 1 20gallon: 
6 angelfish (juveniles)

Quarantine 2: 10gal- 
2 Bolivian ram

The goal is to add the angelfish and the bolivian ram after 4 weeks of quarantine. Then, no more fish. Probably too many fish, but I read that 6 is a good number for angelfish and decreases aggression. I understand that twice a week wc will probably be necessary with this large number of fish. 
I'm worried about the rams. I bought them from a very reputable LFS (not petsmart!) and they are gorgeous. The owner of the LFS told me that he picked out a male and a female. I have been reading that sex differentiating is very difficult. I read the sexing guide which was extremely helpful. I felt a little funny studying the genitals for 20 minutes trying to figure it out and second guessing myself. 
my attempt at sexing:
female- about 3in
male- about 2.5in
However, I have been questioning myself due to their behaviors. I read that ram need hiding places and areas of separation to block line of sight; thus I created that (good thing I did!). I put a substrate and covered 3 sides of the tank with dark felt so they would feel secure.
The female is the main aggressor. They spend all day posturing threateningly at each other (except for when the male is hiding). If one decides to poke its head through the line of plastic plants to the other's territory, then a chase with nips ensues. They occasionally do the lip locking. They contort their bodies and flare out. Just when I think that they are about to kill each other, they freeze in place for nearly 30 seconds (or it just seems that long) and then retreat to their corners. They have been in this tank together for one week. There have been no injuries. Both rams are eating well. The male does a lot of hiding, but he does defend his territory and will fight back; it is not a one-way chase. The female only hides when I turn on the LED, so I don't. (any way for them to get used to the LED? I feel bad that they lose their color and hide [strangely they hide huddled together]- so I do not turn it on)
I know that a 10 gallon is far too small, it is for quarantine purposes only. I put in a flat rock...just in case.....

do I have 2 males? Am I going to need to return one? 
thank you for any help given!


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## notho2000 (Dec 8, 2012)

Hey Laura,
Once they are in the 65G, they should be fine. They're just in too close forced proximity in the 10G to allow them their territorial needs. And their behaviors are normal for the situation they are in. The bottom line is "stay the course". No injuries are being inflicted and other than being stressed out, everything should be fine. You are obviously a very conscientious fish keeper and want the best for your fish. They are resilient and will come through this just fine (better than you :?, I'm afraid). Why not put a divider in their quarantine tank? Also, ultimately, you would be better off to increase the number to 3 or 4 rams once they're in the 65G. This will distribute any aggression amongst the group, taking it off of any one individual. One-on-one is "iffy" at the best of times.
Jim


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## laurainthesky00 (Apr 18, 2014)

Thank you so much for the quick reply! So you think that they are male and female? I'm glad that I will probably be able to keep both; they are precious. I have a cycled 5 gallon available? (it is my bio-sponge tank). Or is a 5 gal even more cruel? or could I place one in the angel tank? The reason I am hesitant to get more rams is the limited size of the 65g tank and the mass of cories. This reminds me of the saga of my female honey gouramis who are supposedly really peaceful fish. I bought my female a "friend" and they fought so badly that one turned brown and was afraid to leave the bottom of the biosponge. I bought two more and solved the problem.

thank you for the compliments =) I'm still rather new to the hobby and do a lot of reading. No matter how much I read, I still make errors! One silly little false Juli cory has survived each and every error I've ever made.


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## laurainthesky00 (Apr 18, 2014)

Could a partition lead to future vendettas? learning to hate one another? ----does that make sense like it sort of does in my own head. would it cause filtering issues as there is just one cycled biosponge?


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## notho2000 (Dec 8, 2012)

Putting one of the rams in with the angels is a safe way of handling the problem. The angels and ram should be completely compatible. About the divider causing them to hate one another ... if they were people, maybe, but these are fish. They are in the "here and now" and don't hold grudges (at least I don't think they do). If you're still bothered by them seeing one another, you could use an opaque piece of plastic. But I don't think it's necessary. You could also keep one in the 10G and the other in the 5G. Good luck whatever you decide to do. I'm sure it will all work out.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

the gouramis with kill your angels, and the fish will eat the shrimp. i also think u have 2 male rams. just my thought on overall outcome of your setup.


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## laurainthesky00 (Apr 18, 2014)

notho2000- do you think I have two male ram? You're right about the vendetta thing. I just have fond memories of my childhood betta divided tank; I thought they were "playing". I also made sure that the ones that were the "best friends" lived next door to each other. Is there is a risk of disturbing the harmony in the angel tank? I've heard that angelfish harmony can be quite precarious. I can take out a cichlid stone from the 65 and place it in the angel tank for one of the ram. 
my options- 
*partition the 10g
*place one ram in the angel tank
*set up the 5g
*take one ram back to the store and become a one ram household (a little sad, but I hate seeing them so stressed. I selfishly like to have multiple of each species to watch them interact, but this violent interaction is not enjoyable to watch)
*take one ram back to the store and try again for a real female (although I now doubt the owner's sexing ability)
what do you think? thank you so much for your help!

sumthingfishy-
We've accepted that the shrimp will eventually end up a delicious treat. We have so many because they have bred. Will still be a little sad. There are a ton of hiding places so a few will probably survive. I do disagree with you on the gouramis. I have 2in little dwarf honey gouramis. They are irritable towards each other, but they will not even disturb a young cory. My female hovered over the little sterbai and flared a little. The sterbai did not notice and the female left in defeat. I'm more worried that the angelfish will scare the gourami. I have floating betta logs for them which they love to hide out in. thank you for your feedback.


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## Mr Chromedome (Feb 12, 2013)

Honey Gouramis (_Trichogaster chuna_)get about 2, rarely 3 inches and are not very aggressive. They are not going to kill the Angelfish. With the fish she has, a few smaller shrimp might get eaten by the Bolivians and possibly the Angels eventually. As to the rest, I would agree with everything notho2000 said.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

my mistake. i was caregorizing the honey gouramis as the same as other gouramis, which i know for a fact can get nasty, especially towards angelfish finnage. however if these honey gourami are in fact a smaller more peaceful breed, then im sorry for the misinformation


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## laurainthesky00 (Apr 18, 2014)

Mr. Chromedome, what is your vote on the rams? two males? incompatible? 
no problem, sumthinfishy. I'm sure a 6in three spot gourami could create juvenile angelfish carnage.


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## Mr Chromedome (Feb 12, 2013)

Without photos, I wouldn't guess at sexes. The action you describe could be male-male or female-female aggression, or it could be pre-mating activity depending on how it is interpreted. However, if it is the latter, I think you have the sexes backwards. Males would tend to be larger, and slightly more aggressive.


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## laurainthesky00 (Apr 18, 2014)

I was taking pictures of my rams to post on this forum and I answered my own question. Studying my pictures I realized that I have two females. My larger one is an obvious female with every female trait. My smaller one has a couple of male features and a smaller vent than the other female, but the vent is still shaped similarly. A smaller vent on a smaller fish makes sense. Their fighting has been a little less intense lately as they are settling in. They still spend all day glaring at each other through the wall of fake plants which divides their territories. They are still eating well, although I'm sure their coloring is not what it could be. 
Do you guys think that they will coexist without being overly stressed when they are moved into the 65 gal? 
Just as well that I have two girls. Ram breeding could have placed my army of cories at risk.

thanks for the help!


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## notho2000 (Dec 8, 2012)

These cichlids (like all cichlids) are just doing what comes naturally. They are territorial, interactive and social. I still think that if you were to add a couple more (4 or 5 in the 65G) it would create a better dynamic. As a keeper of all kinds of cichlids, I have found that the Bolivian ram doesn't rank very high up on the aggression scale (at least not of the life threatening kind). They squabble and bluff and threaten but have little desire to eradicate their like types. The eventual establishment of a pecking order will result in an equilibrium, where each fish has its niche. Again, providing a good amount of structure, with lots of nooks and crannies will give your fish a sense of security, which is often all it takes to calm the waters, so to speak. And they would be no threat to the Corys' well-being.


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## laurainthesky00 (Apr 18, 2014)

Your are a great help, notho2000 =).
I feel like more rams would increase my bioload too much; I am already pushing it with 10 cory army, 3 honey gourami, 2 oto, 6 angelfish (still in quarantine 20gal), 2 Bolivian ram (still in quarantine 10gal). I am hoping to keep all 6 angelfish; they are lovely Philippine blues. My boyfriend and I have fallen in love with them and their interactive curious nature. We are first time Angelfish keepers. Is keeping them all a foolish desire? Their bodies are about silver dollar size. There is a little bit of nipping going on, mostly at feeding time; they are voracious eaters. I haven't noticed any pairing yet, but I suppose they are still juveniles. I really want to keep all of those angelfish. However, I suppose only keep a pair would free up my bioload for more bolivians. Could I later add juvenile Bolivians to adult Bolivians? (I now know to use the 20g for quarantine. never the 10g). My 65g is shaped like a 55high. It is built for angelfish, rather than a massive bottom dwelling army. Fake plants for now. I am switching to small leaf fake plants as it seems like the long leafed plants collect ****.

I was intimidated by the thought of real plants, especially that we are still muddling through fish. CO2 is out of the question for me with my 25in deep tank and cory army. Even though I have done a ton of research, we are making amateur errors. The latest one was the RO-induced pH crash which killed the bio-filter (now under control without damage to fish).

thank you!!!


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## laurainthesky00 (Apr 18, 2014)

update on the ram:
They have calmed down a lot. For the most part, they are respecting the line of fake plants which divides their territories. They do not appreciate the water siphon in their territories for water changes. They are the only fish which has ever attacked it!


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