# What's the chance of getting a breeding pair?



## Als49 (Jul 11, 2014)

I'm looking for red jewels and someone offers me 4 unsex 3" TL (they're the last remaining 4 that he has).

I wonder what's the chance of getting a breeding pair from these four? I read that people usually recommend to start with 6 unsex fish to get at least 1 breeding pair.

Well, due to their low selling price, no one breeds them commercially here. So these red jewel are seldom found on the market here.


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## Narwhal72 (Sep 26, 2006)

That's a difficult question to answer.

Straight out statistically there is only a 12% probability that the four fish will be all male or all female. With 6 fish it is 5%

However, that is assuming that the four unsexed fish were chosen randomly.

Male fish tend to grow faster and larger than female fish. So if a breeder is selecting out all the largest fry for sale the odds of getting all males increases. And the smallest fish left behind will tend to be females.

It's probably worth taking the chance but I would keep in mind that you may end up with all females.

Andy


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Are these like African Rift Lake fish? Even when you have a male and female they may not like each other?


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## Als49 (Jul 11, 2014)

Narwhal72 said:


> That's a difficult question to answer.
> 
> Straight out statistically there is only a 12% probability that the four fish will be all male or all female. With 6 fish it is 5%
> 
> ...


Yes Andy, once I bought 8 N. multifasciatus and turned out all 8 were males because the breeder gave me the biggest ones he had.

For this red jewel, the breeder rechecked his tank and turned out there were 6 red jewels left with various size between 2 - 3". And they're all siblings.

So with this size differences, is it safe to assume there are mixed of males and females? Considering that males usually grow faster and bigger than the females. With 6 fish, I'm brave enough to take the chance.



DJRansome said:


> Are these like African Rift Lake fish? Even when you have a male and female they may not like each other?


Now that's an interesting question. From 3 males and 3 females of N. brichardi, I had leftover of surviving 1 male and 1 female that didn't make into a pair, and instead this male killed the female.

I wonder if this is also the case with red jewels?


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## tanker3 (May 18, 2015)

Red Jewel cichlid--Are you talking about Hemichromis bimaculatus? Like most "Non-Rift Lake cichlids" it is not a harem breeder, so the male will look for "one" female that it will breed with. Just because there is a female with it in the tank, does not mean that is the female "He wants". Having 6 jewels in the tank will give a male a chois to choose from. Good Luck.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

DJRansome said:


> Are these like African Rift Lake fish? Even when you have a male and female they may not like each other?


The more choice of mates, the more chance of acceptable mates. But really, jewels are prolific, very easy to breed cichlids. In most cases, a male + female + water = fry.


Als49 said:


> and instead this male killed the female.
> 
> I wonder if this is also the case with red jewels?


In general, jewel pairs are more compatible with each other then many other aggressive substrate spawners are (say in comparison to large aggressive CA).
But yes the chance of male killing female, at ANY time, is very real. 
Monogamous pair bonding, for the most part, is a MYTH. Should be viewed as an adaptation to captivity. Nothing is assured beyond a spawn (and even that is not really assured with out domestic dispute). After the fry are let go, it's good bye and get lost. In the wild, few cichlids breed year round; there is a short breeding season. And always an enormous choice of alternate mates.
But in captivity:
#1. abundance of calories keeps the female ready to breed frequently, and regularly. 
#2. the threat of other cichlids in the tank keeps the pair defending their area between spawns, or at least minimizes the focus on each other, between break ups. 
But with enough space and alternate choice of mates......serial monogamy at best. As an example, when I had nothing but convicts in my 180 gal. for a few years, every male had bred with at least 3 females and a few females had bred with every male in the tank. This so called "monogamous pair bonding convict cichlid" is anything but monogamous given a little space and a little choice of mates.
Few cichlids mate for life. We coup them up in a small glass box with no escape; should not be any wonder if and when male and female don't get along. 
If you just want to breed the fish once or twice, and then move on, jewel pair + dithers will likely do.
But if you want something that has decent chance of long term success, it will likely require the threat and distraction of other cichlids in the tank.


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## Als49 (Jul 11, 2014)

tanker3 said:


> Red Jewel cichlid--Are you talking about Hemichromis bimaculatus? Like most "Non-Rift Lake cichlids" it is not a harem breeder, so the male will look for "one" female that it will breed with. Just because there is a female with it in the tank, does not mean that is the female "He wants". Having 6 jewels in the tank will give a male a chois to choose from. Good Luck.


Yes it's the common one. And it looks like bimaculatus. I surely hope they're pure ones.



BC in SK said:


> But really, jewels are prolific, very easy to breed cichlids. In most cases, a male + female + water = fry.


That's great to hear because my kids like to see fish of many sizes in the tank. And me, too! 



BC in SK said:


> Few cichlids mate for life. We coup them up in a small glass box with no escape; should not be any wonder if and when male and female don't get along.
> If you just want to breed the fish once or twice, and then move on, jewel pair + dithers will likely do.
> But if you want something that has decent chance of long term success, it will likely require the threat and distraction of other cichlids in the tank.


Most likely we'll keep them for about 1 - 2 years or until we get bored and then switch to other cichlids. For these 6 red jewels, we actually bartered them with our N. brichardi colony.

Speaking about dithers, are congo tetras fast and robust enough to withstand jewel's aggression, since my wife likes "big enough and colorful fish that is easy to see in the tank"? It's one of the reasons why we replace the N. brichardi with red jewels in the first place.

The tank is 120 x 37 x 50 cm (48" x 14" x 20").


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## Mr Chromedome (Feb 12, 2013)

The common Jewel is _guttatus_, not _bimaculatus_, even though that's still the name you will find on most of the commercial and general websites. The corrected ID has been known for over 25 years, and people still can't seem to learn it.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1348


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## Als49 (Jul 11, 2014)

Mr Chromedome said:


> The common Jewel is _guttatus_, not _bimaculatus_, even though that's still the name you will find on most of the commercial and general websites. The corrected ID has been known for over 25 years, and people still can't seem to learn it.
> 
> http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1348


You're right, the parents look similar to the pic in the profile, although not as bright, and there are some blueish pearls.


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## Als49 (Jul 11, 2014)

Here's one of the parents. Is it guttatus?


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

That is a neon jewel. Sometimes called Hemichromis sp. neon in the trade. It has unknown origins but is generally thought to be a line bred strain of the common jewel fish, _Hemichromis guttatus_.
It is commonly sold at the box stores today; probably almost as common as the "regular" type today and likely often crossed with the "regular" type by aquarists.


Als49 said:


> Speaking about dithers, are congo tetras fast and robust enough to withstand jewel's aggression


I know that is often a recommendation on line, in some kind of attempt to be biotope correct (even though _H. guttatus_ is not found with congo tetras anywhere in it's range) but I have never heard or seen of any success stories with this mix. I have seen and heard of congo tetras being used with mild mannered SA cichlids, but otherwise not a commonly used dither fish. Maybe because of cost? Or maybe they just don't fair so well with aggressive cichlids? Personally, for a schooling dither I would choose giant danios, since IME and from what I see on line they have the best track record of any of the small schooling dithers. But the real question is going to be how well they work as a "target fish" if and when you remove the extra jewels.....generally not enough attention is paid to the non-cichlids to make them really work as any kind of outside threat or distraction.


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## Als49 (Jul 11, 2014)

BC in SK said:


> That is a neon jewel. Sometimes called Hemichromis sp. neon in the trade. It has unknown origins but is generally thought to be a line bred strain of the common jewel fish, _Hemichromis guttatus_.
> It is commonly sold at the box stores today; probably almost as common as the "regular" type today and likely often crossed with the "regular" type by aquarists.
> 
> 
> ...


They're commonly traded here as red jewel. No wonder the colors are different than the one in profile and Youtube. I assume these neon jewels also breed like rabbits?

Yes you're right, congo tetra + jewel are not biotopely correct. Congo tetra is also rather expensive here compared to the other tetras.

I haven't seen giant danios at LFSs. The common ones are zebra danios and their color variants.

Perhaps dwarf gourami is a tougher "target fish" for dither? It also occupies the top water level while jewel stays in the mid to bottom level.

Or may be barbs such as odessa or tiger? Although I'm afraid they'll nip the jewels instead.


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## Als49 (Jul 11, 2014)

I got 6 neon jewels last weekend. For the jewels I chose 3 bigger ones and 3 smaller ones (hopefully 3 males and 3 females).

Congo tetras were actually my first choice of dithers since they occupy the top water level. However the LFS didn't recommend it. They also didn't recommend odessa barb and cherry barb either.

Tiger barbs may work since they're more active and robust, compared to odessa and cherry barb. And tiger barbs are much more cheaper, too.

So I bought 12 tiger barbs.


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