# Can Bolivian Rams Breed with German Blue Rams?



## Cvurb (Apr 12, 2010)

Someone told me this, I'm 99% sure they are wrong, but can someone back me up on this one? 
Thanks! Btw I know it is a stupid question.


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## aquariam (Feb 11, 2010)

Absolutely impossible. They're mistakenly in the same genus IMO and I have no doubt that the Bolivian Ram will be moved out very soon. Absolutely not similar water parameters where they are collected, very discimilar body shape, discimilar behaviour. Bolivian Rams have dominant larger females, vs larger males for blue rams.

Not possible.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

Its probably possible. If you can cross a Tropheus with an Melanochromis auratus then you should be able to cross a more closely relate species of substrate spawners. As far as I remember these fish both have the same number of chromosomes so crossing them is not out of the realm of possibility. Just because fish are in different genus doesn't exclude them from crossing.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Everyone seems to forget these two species have very diferent needs. To combine both in one tank would make a lot of compromises necessary. So I would not be woried at all if they cross breed (extremely unlikely) but I would be more woried abouth health.


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## Ayebeez-fisheez (Oct 14, 2020)

I have gbr ebr gold ram and bolivians all spawning in the same tank..


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## Ichthys (Apr 21, 2016)

If it was possible it would have been done by now, and nobody has ever seen one....

Also as Dutch Dude said, they shouldn't even be in the same tank.


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## Ayebeez-fisheez (Oct 14, 2020)

The same way ppl told me I'll never get them to breed coz I'm new to the hobby? Fish are adaptable, in the wild the temp tds ph etc is never the same consistently. There will always be variations in weather lighting temps and ph etc. A slight temp ph and tds adjustment wont harm the fish imo.. and they're literally all having huge spawns back to back. I registered to this forum to seek knowledge, not to read negative comments. Btw I've seen ppl keep and breed these fish in extreme parameters. Tds over 500ppm ph 7.8 to 8 and temps at low to mid 70s... all very healthy and spawning like mad. 1 thing I've learnt in the hobby is ppl like to make out that its rocket science. IT IS NOT. Now i dont know if they're trying to discourage me or if they're just straight up haters... either way i still listen to what ppl have to say never know what i can learn.. but saying they cant be kept together is bs.. bolivians "require" 76°F germans 80°F... that is such a small difference in temp it would never EVER harm them... is their natural habitat consistent? I highly doubt it and all water parameters will vary depending on that specific species' collection point. The reason why i searched if bolivians could x with germans is coz i spent 2 hours watching a male german courting a bolivian... you know what im goin to put them in a 20G and see if it works. I have 11 pairs of different rams with literally 1000s of fry. So imo it's worth a try


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

Really? Aren't there more than enough interspecific hybrids in the hobby already? I thought we were trying to take care of our fishes, not destroy them.


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## Bfishy (Nov 6, 2021)

Ayebeez-fisheez said:


> The same way ppl told me I'll never get them to breed coz I'm new to the hobby? Fish are adaptable, in the wild the temp tds ph etc is never the same consistently. There will always be variations in weather lighting temps and ph etc. A slight temp ph and tds adjustment wont harm the fish imo.. and they're literally all having huge spawns back to back. I registered to this forum to seek knowledge, not to read negative comments. Btw I've seen ppl keep and breed these fish in extreme parameters. Tds over 500ppm ph 7.8 to 8 and temps at low to mid 70s... all very healthy and spawning like mad. 1 thing I've learnt in the hobby is ppl like to make out that its rocket science. IT IS NOT. Now i dont know if they're trying to discourage me or if they're just straight up haters... either way i still listen to what ppl have to say never know what i can learn.. but saying they cant be kept together is bs.. bolivians "require" 76°F germans 80°F... that is such a small difference in temp it would never EVER harm them... is their natural habitat consistent? I highly doubt it and all water parameters will vary depending on that specific species' collection point. The reason why i searched if bolivians could x with germans is coz i spent 2 hours watching a male german courting a bolivian... you know what im goin to put them in a 20G and see if it works. I have 11 pairs of different rams with literally 1000s of fry. So imo it's worth a try


Did it work for you? I also don't understand the issue here and I'm curious if they'd cross. As far as I know, Bolivian Rams are the OG and are the only ones seen in the wild. German Blue Rams were bred from them, and then we made goldens, electric blues and blacks. I'm new to keeping rams but today was my first time seeing Bolivians at a lfs. I've only ever seen gbr, gr, ebr, and br's.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

The Bolivians are totally hard enough to keep without adding weak, super-sensitive things into the mix. I personally find the Bolivian Ram to be an exceptionally attractive Cichlid. Though I will admit that they are a bit too sensitive to keep properly in the aquarium, for my own personal tastes... But unfortunately, too many people are all about obsessing over and trying to find the next coolest 'paint job' they can purchase and work with on an animal.
An appreciation for how amazing a natural/wild coloration creature can look when well-kept and healthy is all-too-often just not enough of a consideration, unfortunately.


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## Mr Chromedome (Feb 12, 2013)

Bfishy said:


> Did it work for you? I also don't understand the issue here and I'm curious if they'd cross. As far as I know, Bolivian Rams are the OG and are the only ones seen in the wild. German Blue Rams were bred from them, and then we made goldens, electric blues and blacks. I'm new to keeping rams but today was my first time seeing Bolivians at a lfs. I've only ever seen gbr, gr, ebr, and br's.


Bolivians are _Mikrogeophagus altispinosus_, while "GBR" and its many color varieties are _M. ramirezi_. They are two distinct species, and live in very different habitats in the wild. Bolivians come from southern parts of South America, while the _ramirezi _come from Venezuela and Columbia, in shallow areas along the Orinoco basin in northern SA. While I suspect that they are not close enough genetically to produce viable young, I have no actual evidence of this fact.

The label "GBR" is a misnomer, which originally referred to a line that originated with German Breeders. This line was very hardy, and not the sensitive fish everyone complains about. Breeders in the far east saw the reputation these German bred Rams had, and started calling their common wild-type Rams "GBR". Unfortunately, the true German bred Rams have disappeared from the US hobby, and the ignorant masses have adopted the label for any wild type _M. ramirezi_.


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