# Starting Over After Fish Died



## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

So about 3 weeks ago I changed my tank over from a community freshwater to a African Cichlid.
My tank was Cycled, and I checked all the readings, etc...

I thought that I rinsed the rocks well enough, but I guess I didn't.
At least that's what I think the culprit was. Because I added 5 or so fish, and they died within about 20 minutes.

Not death-floating, but stone cold dead. I acclimated them, went to get a coffee, and came back to them dead 

So like I said, I guess the rocks must have had something on them?

They were just river-rock that I had bought at a local nursery. So it looks like I'll have to get some more rocks.
But what exactly are you supposed to do with them? I've read a few things, but really need a consensus.

I guess I'll also try fishless cycling to get the tank up and running again. 
Have to buy new substrate as well, sand is the way to go?


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## KiDD (Aug 20, 2010)

I think most on this site like Pool Filter Sand. I have it in my tank and will be putting it in my other 2 tanks as well. Also Were did you get your fish from alot of places have 14 day guarantee.

I have Bleached my rocks that I have found for my tank then I scrub them and wait a few days to put in my tank. I also put my rocks in a bucket with a few Fancy Guppies.. I have too many of them anyway. They breed like rabbits.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Yeah, the place I bought them has a 7 day return policy with a water sample.
But I assumed there was something catastrophically wrong with the water that I wouldn't bother.

Upon further inspection that day, it smelled very metalicy... And almost a fireworks type of smell. 
It was weird.
Like I said, I guess it was the rocks

Do you just use like a 1:10 Bleach to water combo and let them soak?
Then rinse them
They dry?


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## familyman0810 (Oct 13, 2010)

yes i would like to know more bout round rocks as well ??


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

Gumbo_Ghost said:


> So like I said, I guess the rocks must have had something on them?
> 
> They were just river-rock that I had bought at a local nursery. So it looks like I'll have to get some more rocks.


I'm really sorry about your loss. Any chance you could post some photos of your rocks or describe what they look like in some detail? You mentioned a metallic/firework smell coming from the tank water. Do the rocks look like they have metal streaks in them? Did the water smell okay before the the fish were put in the tank?


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I suspect it was not the rocks themselves which killed the fish. Rocks take a long time to leach into the water. There is most likely some item missed in the setup which killed so quickly. Perhaps something simple like not drying the rocks after a bleach soak? A 1-10 bleach-water mix will be fine BUT it does require a couple precautions. After soaking, rinse them. That dilutes the chlorine. Second, air dry them until there is no bleach smell. If they still smell, it is the chlorine gassing off and they are not ready. With all the tiny little pockets and crevices, it may take some time. Water penetrates into all these if given time and it takes time to get it out as well. Just pouring boiling water over the top does nothing for these small spots. It is possible the rocks are bad but not likely. When I lived in Ballwin, I ran across some sand that smelled really strong of sulfur. I could only guess it had been dredged from a holding pond. Possibly a power plant cooling pond??? I'm certain it would have killed fish.


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

Gumbo_Ghost said:


> Upon further inspection that day, it smelled very metalicy... And almost a fireworks type of smell.


Was it a sulfur smell? Maybe an anaerobic gas pocket in the substrate caused this? What type of substrate and how deep was it? Although, many argue that the danger of gas pockets are a bit exaggerated.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

The rocks I used were "River Rock" they were the smooth looking round rocks that you see at the landscape stores.
About 4-5 pounds each...

They didn't have the metal streaks in them, I kind of knew to stay clear of those.

I actually bought more rocks today, 80 Lbs, $25... Not bad.
Same types basically.

The first time all I did was rinse them off with a hose. This time I'm using bleach.
I actually have them sitting outside in a bin soaking. There's probably 15-20 Gallons of water in the bin, and I used 2 cups of bleach.

I was going to let them soak for about 5-6 hours, then rinse them with the hose. Tomorrow I was going to use a wire-brush and rinse some more.

Is that a good plan? I'll post a photo of the rocks in a few minutes.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

This is what I have going on:


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

I dont know that I'd use the wire brush; but that's my 2Ã‚Â¢.

If you have a pressure wash machine, that might be good... but usually the bleach is fine. 2 cups is probably plenty.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

I hope it's enough...
Should I let it sit in the bleach water over night? Or is there a time frame for that?

I'm trying to read other threads about time, and I see some say all you need is 30 minutes others say 24 hours.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

more shouldnt hurt.

be sure to rinse well and let sit. the chlorine will evaporate on its own.

Trust your nose or a family member that is sensitive to the smell.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

I ended up soaking them for about 5 hours, then I rinsed out the bin pretty good, refilled it with water and have them sitting over-night.

Then tomorrow I'm going to rinse some more.


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## 18fisher (Mar 2, 2006)

one thing i thought of was the temp of rocks way dif then tank,that could cause prob fast :thumb:


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## MONEYCYCLE (Oct 7, 2010)

Your rocks look to be fine I feel confident in saying the problem is the bleach for fish to die at this rate. Been there done that. I bleach my corals and barnicals, rocks in my malawi tank from time to time. This is what has worked for me for years. I bleach at any ratio I like. I rinse untill it passes the sniff test. I soak them overnight in water and (prime) Usually 3 or 4 capfulls for a 5 gallon bucket. When I return them to the tank I dose the tank with prime and watch the fish closely. If they start to group up and stay at the bottom ( not normal behavior ) I dose again up to about 5 times the normal dose. I have never lost any fish this way. Good luck.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

I forgot to mention that there was a big disparity in the PH when I first added the fish.

I tested the bag of water that they came in from the fish store...
Their PH was like a 5, it was almost clear, and mine was around a 8.2 where I thought it should be.

Oh well... Today I rinse

I also had to buy a new Filter as I threw my other one away in frustration.
I got a Penguin 400, the guy at the store said it would be plenty even if they are "filthy fish" as I called them.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

YIKES!

Yeah, that should have been the first thing to check - it's also the easiest to fix.

A lot of people just float for 15, then dump.

The recommended method (may be overkill) is, float for 15-20, add a small amount of your tank water to the bag, wait 15-20, add another amount of water to the bag, repeat a 3rd time.

Then, fish the fish out with a net, do not add the LFS water in the bag to your tank.

It may be easier to do it in a bucket or something instead of the bag (mine keep sinking cause I can't keep air in it).


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

That's kind of what I did, floated in bag for 10 minutes or so, then I mixed my water in with theirs for about another 10.

I knew something was wrong because they were all basically glued to the top of the water, as if they were trying to breathe...

I hosed down the container I had the bleach water in for like 10 minutes, do you think that's safe then to re-use to soak?

I then rinsed the rocks off with the hose in that same container and dumped the water, rinse/fill up, dump the water about 20 times.

No smell at all, they look very clean.

I then filled the container back up, and put a few caps of "Tap water treatment" for chlorine and chlorimes in there, not sure if that'll do anything. But I'm going to let them soak over night again.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

re: the bucket/container; let it air out after you've rinsed it thoroughly.

20 is probably overkill.. any way you can just run water over it/overflowing out?

I guess the bigger the difference the more acclimation time you'll need.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Glaneon said:


> 20 is probably overkill.. any way you can just run water over it/overflowing out?


That's kind of what I was doing, just instead of filling it up all the way I'd tip it out once it covered the rocks.

I think they'll be good. I also rinsed my pool filter sand a little bit, got it to where the water in the bucket with the sand was nice and clear.

I was surprised how cheap that sand was. 50lbs for like $7 at a pool store, compared to what the gravel sells for at pet stores.


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

wow...i have no idea. i am inclined to doubt the rocks in this instance. i have never tested any rock, and basically used whatever i wanted, as long as it was pesticide and insecticide free. never had a problem. there has to be something else. for that many fish to die in that short a time...the pH in the bag is inclined to be low, but is the stores' water source the same as your own? also, did you ever have anything on your hands when you setup the tank, or when the fish went in?
good luck,

manoah marton


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I suspect there is a mistake in the testing. If 7.0 is neutral, a PH of five would make it impossible for most fish. Short of adding acid, I'm not sure what one could do to get St.Louis water down that low. Black coffee is PH 5.0 on a chart I checked.

I don't think the PH nor the rocks are the problem as I don't think either would kill that quickly.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

I'm not sure then what the problem was...
Just hope it doesn't happen again, though this time I'm going to start with just 1 or 2 fish.
(I bought like 7 that day)

Also, I was wrong about the PH, it's been a while. Looking at the scale it was more of like a 6.
Just a really really faint yellow.

Something else could have affected it, I just don't know what.

I had a cycled tank
The day before I added the fish I drained about 80-90% of the water so I better arrange my rocks.
While I did that I kept the filter wet with the tank water, and it was only off for maybe 2 hours
Then I filled it back up, tested it, things were ok.
Also, just to be safe I decided to buy a bottle of Tetra Safe Start and put that in before I bought the Cichlids.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

I prefer to arrange rocks with the water level normal, makes it easier to move them in my opinion.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Really?
I tried, and it was just a mess...

On a new note, every time I ask the guys at the fish store about Cycling they're always just like "Start slow"

Then I bring up fishless cycling, and everyone who works there is like "Meh, I don't know about that... we/I just start slow and it's worked for us forever. Maybe use a little help from something like SafeStart"

So then I'm conflicted, because part of me would like to just get fish right out of the gate, the other part wants to do it right.

Before the Cichlids died, I started with Danios and had it running for about 6 weeks before I returned the Danios to the store.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Really?
I tried, and it was just a mess...

On a new note, every time I ask the guys at the fish store about Cycling they're always just like "Start slow"

Then I bring up fishless cycling, and everyone who works there is like "Meh, I don't know about that... we/I just start slow and it's worked for us forever. Maybe use a little help from something like SafeStart"

So then I'm conflicted, because part of me would like to just get fish right out of the gate, the other part wants to do it right.

Before the Cichlids died, I started with Danios and had it running for about 6 weeks before I returned the Danios to the store.

And the store isn't a teenage worked chain-store, they're all 40 year old guys that only sell fish. He said put your water in, wait a few days, get everything running and then "Start out slow"


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## rydog (Oct 15, 2010)

It almost sounds like the water temperature was too different. I have seen that one before...


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I don't think of temperature difference as a quick killer. I think of it as a way to insure you get diseases from the stress. The coming to the surface seems to say a lack of O2 to me. Not getting the bleach dried might burn the gills but it seems it would have had to be very strong to burn them to the killing stage in 15-20 minutes. Just sounds like some form of pollution to me. Gasoline or oil sounds likely to me. You didn't stop for gas on the way home from picking up the fish, by chance? Oil or gas on your hands will kill quick.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

There shouldn't be a problem leaving wet pool-filter sand in a bucket for a few days right?
I rinsed it, and it's just sitting in buckets.
Maybe until Monday

Or should I just put it in the empty tank, does it matter?


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## familyman0810 (Oct 13, 2010)

nice i got my rocks in now after i soaked rinsed soaked rinsed yes it looks great :fish:


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

I ended up throwing my sand in the empty tank. At first I thought 50lbs was going to be way too much, but now I look at it and think "Maybe more..."

it's about an inch thick of sand. I already like the white color and smooth look compared the river gravel.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Just an overall update...
Got everything together and up and running.
I started another thread specifically about my rocks, but here's the tank.










The filter has been running for about 36 hours, water looks really clear.
I ended up getting the Aquaclear 110.

So tonight I tested the water using my API liquid testing kit.
The only thing I added was something for the tap water to get rid of the chlorine and chlorimines.

Ammonia - 1.0PPM
Nitrite - 0PPM
PH - 8.6 or so

So good news is my tap water has a really high PH. Bad news is, apparently it also has Ammonia in it.

How would you proceed? Like I think I said earlier, the LFS man said he'd just start slow with the Cichlids.
And cycle that way, that they'd have no problem. He said if I added some Tetra Safe Start or something I'd be fine with getting 2-3 right off the bat.

I wouldn't mind doing a fishless cycle, but something tells me I'd screw it up and it'd never work.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

1 or 2 fish _should_ be fine. Just watch the ammonia & nitrite, do water changes to keep it under control - but it could take longer than a fishless cycle since you won't have the volume of ammonia->nitrite->nitrate.

it's also a risk to the fish, if the ammonia is getting converted to nitrite, but it takes a while for the bacteria to form to go from nitrite->nitrate, then they could be poisoned by the nitrite.

fishless isn't hard, it's just hard to be patient.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

As far as water changes go, would that have an effect since the tap water is around a 1PPM?


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

Gumbo_Ghost said:


> So tonight I tested the water using my API liquid testing kit.
> The only thing I added was something for the tap water to get rid of the chlorine and chlorimines.
> 
> Ammonia - 1.0PPM
> ...


High pH out of the tap is great but in combination with ammonia in the tap water it makes the ammonia even more toxic to fish.

If I had your tap water, I would definitely do a fishless cycle. I think you'll improve the chances of having healthy fish. There's lots of detailed instructions on how to do it properly on this forum (PM me if you want some links). 


Gumbo_Ghost said:


> As far as water changes go, would that have an effect since the tap water is around a 1PPM?


Your choice of water conditioner is going to be important. Some deal with ammonia, some won't. Prime or AmQuel will work. If you use these on the water you add during water changes, you should be okay (especially once your tank is cycled and has established bacteria to deal with ammonia).

It might also be a good idea to test your water's GH and KH. You want to make sure your water is hard enough to keep your pH relatively stable. PH levels drop naturally if the water isn't hard. If that's the case your pH will be going up and down with water changes and cause your fish lots of stress. The hardness levels (KH in particular) will help buffer the water so the alkalinity stays more stable.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks.
So if I add Prime or AmQuel like you said to the tap water during changes it should be 0PPM Ammonia going in?

So then I'd be able to get back to the idea of fresh water will lower the ammonia I guess.

As far as adding fish, do you think something like Safe Start would work well enough?
And then just start with a few fish, doing water changes maybe daily for awhile?


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Did you test right after running the water? It's likely that you will get a different reading after the water sets overnight. Might help on the ammonia question. Gases and such in the water may come out and you may get different readings.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

I've tested both, the water that's been in the tank for a few days and right out of the faucet.
Either way it's around a .50PPM through 1PPM


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

Gumbo_Ghost said:


> So if I add Prime or AmQuel like you said to the tap water during changes it should be 0PPM Ammonia going in?


Since you've already tested the ammonia levels in the water both straight out of the tap and with it sitting for a while, I would add one of the above mentioned conditioners to some of your water, retest and compare to your baseline. That's the only way to be sure it has the desired effect of reducing ammonia to 0.


> As far as adding fish, do you think something like Safe Start would work well enough?
> And then just start with a few fish, doing water changes maybe daily for awhile?


Using something like Safestart to kickstart your cycle is a good idea and, if it works, will increase the chances of the fish surviving. You'll want to monitor both ammonia and nitrite levels (you might get a nitrite spike early on) and keep them under control, as you've indicated, with frequent water changes (using Prime/AmQuel conditioned water).


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Just got back from another fish store.
I was trying to find a replacement heater holder for a 200W Fluval. I need the whole piece, suction cups and holster type part. Of course nobody sells that, and the "One size fits all" replacement suction cups and holders... Doesn't fit mine.

I've got the heater resting on the cup, and then a tape job holding it up.

So he also said that he does the fishless method with food. Said to put quite a few pinches in the tank, and just wait for it to deteriorate. Said it would take 7-10 days, and I should be good to go.

I just like how if you ask 10 people at a store how to start the tank off, you're going to get 10 different answers ranging from "You can just throw them in now if you want... Oh they'll be fine!" to "And after about 6 months you can put 1-2 fish in"


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Food will deteriorate into nitrate which skips the cycle, I believe... however, I guess it could speed up the bacterial process.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

One of the problems with using fish flakes is that the ppm of ammonia it produces is unpredictable and hard to measure immediately (the ammonia isn't created until the flakes deteriorate). Since you want to produce 2-3 ppm to start the fishless cycle, it's hard to say how much food will be needed. With liquid ammonia, you can test as you add it to know immediately when you've hit your target. Putting in too little or too much ammonia can cause the nitrogen cycle to progress more slowly so using flakes is a bit of a crapshoot IMHO...but maybe there are others on here who have a better idea about how to use flakes with some precision?


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

That makes sense about the amounts of ammonia...
He said "a few pinches"

I already put it in, so we'll see what happens.
I put maybe like 5-6 pinches in


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

BUMP

So I've been checking the water on a daily basis since adding the fish flake on 10/28
My tap Ammonia level is about a 1PPM, so that's been pretty much constant, always around a 1PPM

But today I finally got some Nitrite and Nitrate readings...
Nitrite was at .5PPM, and the Nitrate was around a 7PPM or so.

So does it seem like this is going in the right direction? Just like it play out?

I did buy a bottle of Dr.Tim's Live Bacteria the other day, just in case this doesn't work.
I may just throw it in either way


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

The nitrite spike means something is going on in the tank (a good sign). Normally you'd be waiting at this point for the ammonia reading to be 0 but since you've had a constant reading of 1 ppm (and this is also your baseline reading out of the tap), I'd want to add ammonia to bring your reading to 2-3 ppm.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

So maybe a few more flake pinches...


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## irondan (Nov 22, 2007)

for rocks and driftwood, i soak in a solution of 1:5 for a minimum of 24 hours. then i drain the tote, scrub them with a stiff bristle brush and soak them again. i then add a large amt of dechlorinator and leave them for another 24 hours. all of the rocks and driftwood in my tanks are collected by me from local lake and river beaches and i have never lost a fish.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

I ended up not putting in any additional flakes for now.

Today my readings were:

Ammonia - .25PPM
Nitrite - .5PPM + It's off the charts purple
Nitrate - 20 PPM

In the last 2 days, the Ammonia has dropped (Maybe because I haven't added any more flakes, but like I said Tap Water is a 1PPM)

The Nitrite has sky rocketed to like a .5+ it's very very purple.
And the Nitrate has gone up from 10 to 20.

Just a big NitrIte spike? Or is something weird?


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Part of the conversion process. Keep going.

If your water as 1ppm Ammonia, that makes it easy to get your cycle going.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

So I was just looking at the tank before I went to bed, and somehow there appeared to be a Snail on one of the rocks...

I guess it got in there from one of the plants I ended up throwing out?
I bought only 1 plant a fish store, the other few from Pet Smart with "Snail Free" on them...

All I can see is that one, and I didn't do anything about it right now.

Snails are no good right? If I see 1, does it means there's a ton more (Like Cockroaches)


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

KILL IT!!!!!! (no, seriously, if they get established, they are totally gangsters)
Just get rid of it, and if you see any more (which you will, trust me) get 'em as well. If you get a hand on this now, you probably won't have a problem in the future. Also, Petsmart/Petco are notorious for having snail ridden plants. That said, if the plants look good, I will usually get plants there. 
Also, my comment on your tank is get a black BG, and also a heck of a lot more rocks. :lol: :thumb: 
Good luck!!!

Manoah Marton


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

I don't mind snails. I keep a few mystery snails in my tanks.

Unless someone knows why I shouldnt...


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Manoah Marton said:


> KILL IT!!!!!! (no, seriously, if they get established, they are totally gangsters)
> Just get rid of it, and if you see any more (which you will, trust me) get 'em as well. If you get a hand on this now, you probably won't have a problem in the future. Also, Petsmart/Petco are notorious for having snail ridden plants. That said, if the plants look good, I will usually get plants there.
> Also, my comment on your tank is get a black BG, and also a heck of a lot more rocks. :lol: :thumb:
> Good luck!!!
> ...


No I can't find it... But I will stalk this snail.

I moved all the wires around and taped them to the unseen parts, so all you see is the filter on the back. But I did buy some black poster board I may put up

By the way, I did add more rocks, and did some rearranging. This is how it looks right now.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Oh cool, you got the clear cichilds too! Got about what, 30 in there? Those are really easy to take care of.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

I can't seem to get the Nitrite down...
It's been around a 5PPM for days and days now.

I even ordered and used some of the Dr.Tim's nitrifying bacteria, and put it in yesterday morning to see if it would help.

It hasn't done anything. It says "Naturally detoxifies Ammonia and Nitrites, making it ready for fish immediately" or something like that.

Before I put the Dr.Tims in I did a few massive water changes, and no impact.

Ammonia - .5PPM
Nitrite - Somewhere between the 2PPM-5PPM, it's hard to tell what shade of purple it is...
Nitrate - 5PPM

The Nitrite has been around a 5PPM or possibly higher off the charts for about a week now. Even with 70% water changes on a few separate days. It's never coming down... I'm going to have clear cichlids forever.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Give it another week at least.

Sometimes it's stubborn. Just be sure to keep feeding some ammonia to keep that bacteria going.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Wouldn't adding more Ammonia only make the Nitrite continue to go up?


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Keep it low... and yes, it will.. but if you don't - then the BB that converts ammonia to nitrite will starve off and you'll break the cycle.

I dont know how long it can go without ammonia - maybe dr. tim knows?


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Well, there's still decaying/rotting fish flakes at the bottom mixed in with the sand. So I guess that's still producing a little ammonia.

I don't want to put too much in, which I think I might have to start.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

I got an ammonia test kit from the local chain store, $9.99 - 130 tests. Easy to read too.

get water sample, 8 drops from each bottle... then wait 5 minutes - solid results.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

I have the ammonia test kit... API combo pack
It's been constantly around a 1PPM for a while now, as the tap water is a 1PPM anyway.
At it's highest last week it was about a 2PPM

Right now it's a .5 to a 1PPM


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

awesome. Keep it around there.

Wait for the nitrites to be converted to nitrate (however, the nitrate meter is usually less sensitive, ie, scale of 20-100ppm instead of .5-5ppm).


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Update...

In the last week, up to tonight's testing, the Nitrite has dropped to around .25PPM
The Ammonia is still between the 0 and .25PPM
And the Nitrate is around a 10 Maybe.

I feel like I'm close...

Still not fish ready you think? I mean how terrible is Nitrite of .25 on fish?

I also bought a few plants, after my initial ones died.
I put some Tetra plant nutrient stuff in the water as well, so hopefully they'll survive.

I love the Hornwort plants. I plated a few Swordtails as well, which must have stirred up some snails from somewhere. I got as many as I could, it's not a big deal they're in there unless they start going to down on the plants. They almost seem dead in the tank, they never move.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

SOOO close. Just hang in there.

*You really want 0 nitrite.*


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

:x

**** you Nitrites! Drop...

I'll keep myself occupied hunting snails.


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## MPKS92 (Nov 5, 2010)

8) I have used vineager and water a 1gallon vinegar to every 1000 gallon water, soak them overnight in the tub or whatever you have with a fully submersible pump to circulate the water. Then rinse them and cycle them with no water overnight and your done. bit lengthy but minus the bleach which seems a bit harsh to me. But you cant argue that bleach kills evrything when its fresh. I would be scared to put something with bleech exsposure in my tank. Just my opinion.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

uhh... :-? what are you talking about?


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## irondan (Nov 22, 2007)

the thread started with a post about dead fish and how to clean rocks


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Well, we determined that it wasn't a rock cleaning that was a problem..


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Yesterday and today I noticed that there's all this little black stuff on the top of my sand.
Its like little black squiggly lines, but all I have in there are plants.

Is it plant particles or something else?
It looks like dirt, but I'm not sure what it is...

I tried to take a few pics


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## Stellaluna (May 8, 2006)

Looks like poo. Could there be snails?


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Yeah... There's a few snails that I've seen.
I've been trying to catch them, but they're tough to get.

Snails poo that much?!


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## Stellaluna (May 8, 2006)

You betcha!


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Man... I guess it'll eventually get cycled through the filter or something might eat it.
It seems like way too much for the 4-5 snails I've found.

They must be hiding out.


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## Stellaluna (May 8, 2006)

I would not fret too much about it at this point. You are likely to have more snails than you think, but they eat continuously and p**p continuously as well - normally you'd just not notice it. You've got a fine little ecosystem going, so no worries! There's room for everyone....


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Cool.
I've been reading up on snails and it's kind of either, "Try this to kill them all" or "Who cares"

I don't care about them really, unless they start eating the plants, which they had to come in with.

When you buy plants is there a way to check, or they just infested with eggs inside or something?
I think every plant I bought was "Snail Free" :roll:


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## Stellaluna (May 8, 2006)

It is hard to avoid them, and I've quit caring about it. Your fish may eat them, but otherwise as long as you are not overfeeding your fish you'll almost certainly not get an overabundance. I have some remarkable stories of snails appearing where it seemed impossible for them to be, but it happens.

Right now I'm annoyed because I have a 150-gal Tanganyikan setup that was emptied, scrubbed, bleached, filled with bleach water to soak, then drained, scrubbed, sat empty for 2 weeks, and redone with 100% new sand and rocks that had never been in a tank. This is white aragonite sand and lo and behold, 2 months after setup, I am seeing trails of a few Malaysian trumpet snails going along the white sand! What? I had them in the tank before I emptied it, but nothing could survive what I did to that tank to clean it! Amazing. So, I'm picking them out as I see them, because they mar the stark "surface of the moon" image I'm trying to create, lol.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

That is amazing...

I actually had no idea that snails and aquariums existed, so when I first saw this thing sitting on one of the rocks I just assumed that somehow a lady-bug fell in the tank.
Then I saw another and looked it up online.

Then I noticed a sign at the fish store about snail free.


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## Stellaluna (May 8, 2006)

I don't think snail-free is entirely possible, but you can rinse and soak plants in an extremely light dish soap/bleach water solution (we're talking mere drops of bleach per quart of water) or there are other preparations meant to get snails off plants, but I think they are kind of cute, and most that are found on plants are not going to actually damage the plant - they will eat the dead or dying leaves. To me they kind of go along with a planted tank, and probably provide some benefit.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Back to the poo...
If I bought a vacuum thing of some sorts, how do you all navigate around your rock structures?

Move them every time? That's got to be a pain, since I'm sure it gets into caved areas and such


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## Stellaluna (May 8, 2006)

Well, for me, I wave my hand or the end of the siphon hose to lift the debris into the water column and siphon it out. Otherwise, plants appreciate this waste and I don't go too nuts trying to get it out. You can arrange the structures in such a way that you can have easier access to places that accumulate debris.


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## blusue2 (Sep 9, 2010)

Using a turkey baster (clean and new) can help whoosh water between rocks and get to those Hard to reach places. I also use a tea strainer from time to time to give the sand a good cleaning. A small fish net would also work for that.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

I just see the vacuums and siphons in the stores, and they look way too thick to fit into the spots in my tank...

By the way, IT'S A MIRACLE!

Nitrite = 0
Ammonia = 0

PH - 8.4

Perfect, finally...


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## jack lover (Aug 12, 2008)

Buy a few SMALL powerheads, will help cycle all the poo gathering around the rocks!


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

I was looking at those actually...
Do you put them in the sand? Or near the bottom?

I have a huge air pump strip in the back, and the filter moves the plants a ton, but I guess nothing gets the bottom.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

It will, because once the flow hits a wall it will go down... at least a good portion of it. Once it goes down, it will hit the bottom and go back into the tank.

Just not as much as a powerhead will do.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

I've bought a few fish...
2 days ago I purchased 3 Yellow Labs, which were doing great.
Water is still great.

So today I decided to get 4 more.
I bought 2 Red Peacocks, and then 2 Zebra Obliquidens.

Now I wasn't sure about the Zebra Obliquidens, as I've never heard of them before, but the guy said "They're all Africans, they'll be fine"

I see that they're from Lake Victoria, but some people online seem to say they're fine mixed in.
Hopefully that's the case.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Victoria & Malawi can be mixed (according to the library here).


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Is it normal for the Cichilds to run and hide in their caves whenever you walk into the room?

My tank is in a room adjacent to the living room, so when I'm sitting in there, they're all out swimming and investigating.
But whenever I walk in, they immediately dart back into their rocks.
Then when I leave they come back out.

It kind of sucks. They eventually come out when I'm standing there putting food in, but only after the food falls to the sand.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Decided after a week of the other fish doing great to add a few more.

2 Sunshine Peacocks
2 Deep Electric Peacocks

The "Deep Electrics" might be called something else I guess, as searching for that doesn't yield a whole lot.

But the adults at the store were a light blue/blue with a yellow top fin. Mine are tinted blue at the moment, but not adults obviously.

The guy guy also sold me on this pellet type food, but I forgot the name of it. I was using Tetra Flakes.
They gobbled the pellets up.

They're also always out now, no longer hiding when you go up to the tank. I guess they're acclimated.


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