# Satanoperca cf. leucosticta spawn



## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

Here are some shots and video of my _Satanoperca_ cf. _leucosticta_ "rio xingu" with their fry. These were taken on the 9th day.

female gathering up the last rebellious fry


















Video of the male spitting his fry to transfer them back to the female
http://s191.photobucket.com/albums/z3/e ... V05415.flv
Another video that does a better job showing their breeding coloration. Generally, throughout the video, the male is to the back/right and female is to the front/left
http://s191.photobucket.com/albums/z3/e ... V05413.flv

Female, pre-spawn









None of the videos show how many fry the female is holding, I removed 94 fry to try my hand at rearing them, and there are _at least_ that many still with them. Parameters: pH 6.2, conductivity: 270 micro siemens, temp 86F, Nitrate 10ppm

I've had them about 4 months, I think I have 3m/1f :? but I am glad that I ended up with a compatible pair. Their brood care leaves something to be desired, but they have a lot of fry to practice with for next time. Any +/- comments, suggestions welcome :thumb:

Ed


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## DiscusQueen (Jul 16, 2007)

Ed.. Love the videos.. . How could anyone not love the face on these guys.. Just gotta say awwww. Good luck with them. Sue


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## xalow (May 10, 2007)

Those fry certainly are rebellious. What do you mean by their brood care leaving something to be desired? Are they permitting other fish to predate on their young or have they taken that particular liberty own their own accord?

Each video really helps to show off the subtle colors that your fish have they appear to have been taken care of very well.

Have you found any survivability or growth differences between the ones you are rearing your self and the ones that the parents are taking care of? Seeing how active the fry were in the videos I imagine that removing 94 of them could not have been an easy task at all. Nice work excellent videos and pictures.


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

Thanks Sue!

xalow... thanks for the kind words! Initially they didn't keep the fry very contained, and a good number were snacked on by their tank mates, that was the reason for the comment. But, since then, I've figured out that there are at least 200 fry still with them, so I might be eating those words :lol: I'll update about any difference in growth between the two groups in a fews days...

The videos shows the male spitting his fry, and he doesn't seem to ever hold over 50 or so, but the female is holding the majority. Comparing the 94 I removed to those remaining, there are easily 200 still being held by the female. I'll try and get a good picture or video of them releasing them or with them out. Thanks again!

Ed


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## xalow (May 10, 2007)

I personally have never been able to get a good picture of a holding female so I wish you the best of luck. You should be commended for the diligence it must have taken to count how many fry you took and even more so for the estimate at how many were left.

Is this type of brood care where some young are seemingly allowed to be snacked on but there are still over 200 survivors something that is typical for the species? I don't know much about the breeding of earth eaters other than the biparental mouthbrooding in some species and how some start off with their fry in the substrate.


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

xalow... it wasn't too difficult to count the fry I removed via siphon. I just counted them as I transfered them from the bucket. This is the first time I've spawned these guys, so I can't say too much about what is typical brood care for them but from the articles Lee Newman has written about them, my fish seem fairly consistant, though I couldn't find any information about this particular variant. _S. jurupari _and _S_. sp. "amazonas red" pick up immediately, and _S. leucosticta _pick up after 30 some hours, so these differ from all of those species in their specific mode of parental care.

They spawned on a stone, the female picked up after 20 hours, held for 9 days and released the fry on the morning of the 9th day. The male protected her while she was holding and participates in holding and rearing the free-swimming fry. The first day they released the fry only to transfer them from one parent to the other. The fry I removed were a group that the male had released into pit, and some that were getting raided by their tank mates I managed to save in the confusion. They dig out small pits and interestingly enough, the male collected half a dozen chips of driftwood and placed them into the pit, and they release the fry into the pieces of wood.

It took a drop in pH from 6.8 to 6.2, and a rise in temperature from 84 to 86F to get them to spawn. I left the rest of the fry with them, they've lost a lot of them but both parents are still holding. I'm not going to remove anymore, I think it's important that they get to do their thing and practice for next time.

Shots of the female holding...


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Absolutely Awesome Ed!!!

Great photos to. Can we have some full tank shots please.


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

Thanks Peter! I appreciate it, I will try and get some full tank shots tonight. It won't be much to look at though, you can see the algae in the videos :? I didn't move the UV sterilizer back into the 75 when I had to move the fish from the 180; and there are two nursery baskets hanging on the tank :lol: one with orange head fry and one with _leucosticta_ fry. I learned that when I leave the orange head fry in the nursery baskets for 2 weeks I have almost 100% survival rate, where if I remove them straight to a growout tank they all die within 10 hours. So I could only imagine the _leucosticta_ are much more sensitive so I'm trying the same with them. They are at least half the size of the orange head fry, but then again theres 2-3 times as many.

Ed


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## xalow (May 10, 2007)

I have to say wow again. The observation about the male collecting driftwood chips is wonderfully fascinating and something I have never heard of before. Speaking of observations, yours are detailed to the point where I suspect that you are the scientific type, something along the lines of environmental science I would guess.

If you don't mind more questions, how do you go about having appropriate water flow through the nursery baskets? I have always thought they were a cumbersome and problematic way of raising fish but you are clearly doing it in a way that works.


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

xalow... Thanks for the comments! it's nice to know the details are appreciated. Your guess is right on par... double major in Psychology/Wildlife Biology, I start working for my masters in Biology in the fall. I'd like to think I'll continue and get my phd in Animal Behavior.

About the nursery baskets- I have always disliked them but in this case they make the difference in fry survival. I aim my return from my canister to where it hits the front glass near the surface, then flows down the front of the aquarium. I put the orange head fry (larger, better swimmers) nearest the return and the _leucosticta_ fry on the opposite end, where the current has weakened. This keeps a good current through the baskets and keeps so much debris from building up in them. Last time with the orange head fry I removed them after one week, cleaned the basket thoroughly, then put them back in it for a second week and never lost a single fry. I think they have a very short delicate period, then are quite hardy like the adults. I am anticipating the leucosticta being more sensitive and much slower growing. The last two times, the female Geo has figured out the fry are in the basket and defended it for several days :lol:

I have to make a correction to my initial post: all three pictures are of the male :roll:. You can see the slightly different facial markings on the snout than the female in the later pictures. The male and the other two fish have the same pattern.


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## bernreuther (Jan 29, 2007)

Great photos, Ed. I didn't know you kept Leucosticta too. Those are the reddest ones I've ever seen.

I had always thought that the difference between leucosticta and jurupai was that the irridescent spots on the face were only present in the jurupari, while the leucostictas had them in the body but they faded out by the face. Looks like I have had that backwards all along.


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

Thanks Dave,

Yeah, generally the _leucosticta_ have spots on their cheeks and _jurupari_ do not, but some populations of _jurupari _have lines and even a small amount of spots, so there's a little gray area in some cases. But their differing spawning behavior helps keep the two apart when it is difficult to tell by morphology.

Ed


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

WOW!!!! Never seen such nice colored S. leucosticta!!! Realy wonderful fish and great they already spawned for you! Keep the good work up Ed :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


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## Juand (May 28, 2007)

Very nice and Congratulations Ed.!!

Your geos ROCK :thumb: .!!


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

Thanks guys for the kind words!

Ed


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## Howler33 (Dec 10, 2004)

Beautiful macro shots, Leucosticta are one of my favorite eartheaters and yours look exceptional. Too bad you are not closer, would love to get some of those fry. I ordered a pair a couple years back though only the male made it in transit so I never did get to try and spawn them.


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

Thanks for the comments howler33!

I enjoy keeping them, they have interesting behavior and interesting personalities. I'll keep updating as the fry develop, or if they choose to spawn again. The fry are growing very slow!

Ed


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

I transfered the fry into a growout tank today, they are just over 3 weeks old. There are still 91, so maybe they aren't as sensitive as I originally assumed. Really poor pic...


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

Just an update: The fry are 2 months old now, the largest are 1" TL and the smallest are still only 1/2" TL. A few (not so good) pics...








Most have orbital markings like these...








Here is their mom...


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Thanks for the update Ed. Mum looks real nice and the fry are looking like real fish. :thumb:


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## DiscusQueen (Jul 16, 2007)

Hi Thanks for the updates and pics... Mom and kids are looking great.. Congrats.. Sue


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## btate617 (Apr 24, 2008)

Hey Ed how big were they when they spawned? 
Great pics also.

Brian


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Very cool bud.

Love the fry, funny little guys.


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

Brian... thanks! The female is 5.5" TL and the male 5" TL. I have two other females that are 5" TL.

Blair... thanks! Yeah the fry are funny, they develop their long snout really early, it makes a 1" fish look kind of odd :lol:

Updated fry pic at 10 weeks, still around 1"


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## btate617 (Apr 24, 2008)

edburress said:


> Brian... thanks! The female is 5.5" TL and the male 5" TL. I have two other females that are 5" TL.
> 
> Blair... thanks! Yeah the fry are funny, they develop their long snout really early, it makes a 1" fish look kind of odd :lol:
> 
> Updated fry pic at 10 weeks, still around 1"


Awesome I may only be an inch or so away.


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## dogofwar (Apr 5, 2004)

Great job, Ed!


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

Thanks Matt :thumb:


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## dogofwar (Apr 5, 2004)

Breeding and raising those fish is a real achievement!

Acaricthys heckelii on your list?


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

Ha, maybe eventually. They are a nice species. I am more of a _Geophagus_ and _Satanoperca_ guy. I do need my _celidochilus_ to breed so I can fund a few more collecting trips :lol:


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

One year later... the fry are around 4".

Pair flaring at each other (male left, female right). I think they should breed in another 6 months. 

















Sorry for the poor quality pictures, they don't like to swim near the front of the tank when the camera is out, plus I have to try and avoid the swarm of Geos right in front of the camera :lol:

One of the adults...









In the last 12 months, they've grown from around 5 1/2" to 7".

Cheers,
Ed


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## DiscusQueen (Jul 16, 2007)

Hi Ed... Congrats they look wonderful.... Have a great holiday... I got the 120 traded for a 55 that fits in the new house here in Ct... Now lets see what shall I put in it... any ideas Haha... Well the fish will have to wait until the painters are done and the tank cycles... but hopefully soon.. TC Sue


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## Isis24 (Dec 10, 2008)

Wow! Thanks for the update; I really enjoyed it! how many fry do you have in that tank? Would it be possible to see a full tank shot?


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

Sue... thanks! Glad to hear about the new tank, I'll keep an eye out for an update.

Isis... I only kept two _leucosticta_ fry and sold the rest. I kept what I thought was a male and female at 1 1/2" and I think I was right. I wanted to keep 6 but didn't have room at the time. I am trying to get more pictures. How are your _leucosticta_ doing?


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## japes (Jan 10, 2008)

Hi Ed,

Definitely some similarities between our _S. leucosticta_ colonies, although even my smallest runt (hilarious little hyper-aggressive male) doesn't feature the facial lining like your growout photographs do. The adults are very similar though, can be quite orange in the body although I find some photos often exaggerate this.

What process do you go through for raising fry in the early stages? My male and female actively swap the fry between them every few days but just constantly hold for upwards of 2 weeks, even though, according to Weidner, the standard behaviour for these fish is to brood for up to 14 days (and only the first 5 consistently during the day) and then completely cease all parenting.

I'm going to try leaves as recommended as a spawning site but I've now got a decent amount of Tetra present in the tank and I'm sure they will be keen on freeswimming fry.

Would you recommend moving the female with a mouthful of fry to an established (have a sponge filter running in display tanks sump, with a full tank of water siphoned from the original home prior to transfer) 2x1x1 aquarium underneath my display around the 4-5th day mark? and leaving the female present for the next week or so to brood the fry as she wishes? Or do you think moving her for perhaps a day, stripping her and reintroducing her to the colony and letting the 5-6 day old free-swimming fry operate on their own accord by themselves in the tank?

Frysavers are a possibility but with the tank ultimately being a display I'd rather use the separate tank. I'm really just curious at what stage you collect the isolate the fry.

Cheers,
Ryan.


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

Hi Ryan,

I haven't tried leaves in their tank yet, but as soon as I move them to their own tank I will do so. I want to see if they move the leaf like I have read of. Mine always spawn on a stone, collect the eggs after 18-22 hours and always release the fry for the first time on the 9th day like clock work, and have around 400 fry.

For raising the fry, I don't strip any fishes, so I have never tried that. I siphoned this batch out on the 11th day and their were still around 300 I left with the parents, and another spawn I was able to wait until the third week and removed the last remaining 35-40 fry. Both these times I used a in-tank nursery, maybe this is what you call a Frysaver? I leave them their for 2 weeks, and then transfer them into a bare QT tank with a UV sterilizer. I have never tried to remove them straight from their natal tank into QT without the time in the basket. I've had poor luck with some _Geophagus_ doing that, and so I use the baskets and have good survival rates. I also have never tried to remove a holding female of this species, but I have done so several times with _Geophagus_ and never had much luck. I think the fry die from the transfer and then are eaten by the female.

I think the experiences I have had have been greatly limited by the tankmates. I am getting two new tanks next week, I was planning on doing both for _Crenicichla_, but I think I might give the _leucosticta_ one to themselves so I can see more thorough breeding behavior.

A few more pics... Most of the red is in the dorsal, anal and back at this stage. The facial patterns are still developing, the lines that follow the snout will break up and form spots like the adults and there will be more red on the cheeks after that.

juveniles

male sifting









female









adults (alpha female)

















I rarely shoot with flash, but all these picture are with flash. It captures the red really well but it makes the facial spotting look green and in reality it is blue.

Cheers,
Ed


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## japes (Jan 10, 2008)

I'll try and get some more photos in about 15 minutes Ed.

How would you recommend separating fry from parents come the next spawn? Siphoning is most likely out of the question as short of swapping from male to female the fry are never allowed to swim freely. Last batch they shared the fry between parents for about 16-17 days before they either died or were more than likely eaten, and I never once saw them.

In-tank nursery / frysaver would be the same thing I imagine. I'm not too worried about holding them and keeping them alive, more so just the separation from the parents, as observation of the last batch leads me to believe I'm going to need to strip them or move the female, which is risky as the stress will more than likely cause her to eat the fry.


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

Hi Ryan,

Mine do the same when they switch the fry, very fast and contain the fry near the substrate or even in a shallow pit, or near woody debris. I usually get the hose and bucket ready and focus on the male and when he releases fry I move as fast as possible without scaring them. He is more careless and I have better luck with him, unfortunately he also does no hold as many fry on average. It just requires sitting there, waiting for them to release the fry which can be quite time consuming.

When I remove a holding female I use a big net, and place her into a small bucket in the floor. With my orange heads, I have one female that holds throughout and one female that usually spits the fry during this process, but if you let her sit in the bucket, after 10-15 seconds she will collect all the fry. I usually let her sit another moment and then dip the bucket into the rearing tank and let her swim out on her own. This method works for me as far as getting the female and fry into the tank alive and well. At some point maybe I make a mistake, or maybe the female does not have the best instincts and the fry disappear in a few days. I think this transfer process would work with _leucosticta_ too. I think they will spit the fry instead of eat them, at least during the catching and transfer process. Worst case scenario, if she doesn't recollect the fry, you have a bucket full of them :lol:

I've also debated at length putting a pair by themselves in a tank and see if they can rear the fry more naturally. Thats the most attractive scenario to me personally, but I think there could be logistic problems with the male being hard on the female unless she was ready to breed or the tank was still quite large. I haven't yet had a good opportunity to try this, but I will eventually. It would be the best opportunity to observe and photography their parental behavior because I think they wouldn't mouth brood the fry so much.

Ed


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## Isis24 (Dec 10, 2008)

edburress said:


> Isis... I only kept two _leucosticta_ fry and sold the rest. I kept what I thought was a male and female at 1 1/2" and I think I was right. I wanted to keep 6 but didn't have room at the time. I am trying to get more pictures. How are your _leucosticta_ doing?


I'm looking forward to seeing more pics  I never feel like there are enough eartheater pictures on here! My leucosticta are doing great; they're growing slowly but surely  The largest is about 4.25", and the smallest about 2.5".

Lara


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## HereFishyFishy523 (Jan 8, 2010)

Wow... they are really beautiful


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## Flyfisher (Jan 5, 2010)

Hi, I've been reading your post and admiring you fish. I'm getting very interested in eartheaters and these seem to have an unusual coloration. Is this down to where they come from 'rio xingu' ?
Are they, in your opinion easy or difficult to keep? Fussy or slow eaters? Need high temps? And have you tried them with different tankmates? Need a soft low ph?
I posted here for my first time earlier asking about tankmate Eartheaters for my black bar silver dollars. I'd love a group of satanoperca but have a feeling they may be too needy to mix with greedy dollars. Some have said my dollars may be skittish too. Any thoughts?
Well done on the photographing. I'm very envious of these stunning fish you keep and breed


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

HereFishyFishy523... thanks!

Flyfisher... thanks for the kind words. The _leucosticta_ from Guyana also have a similar coloration, lots of red. Other than that, I'm not so sure. It might depend somewhat on diet and parameters. 


> Are they, in your opinion easy or difficult to keep?


They're easy to keep, but they like warm, soft water. 


> Fussy or slow eaters?


They eat almost anything and don't have reservations about feeding from the surface. They eat eagerly, but I suppose that is still rather slow compared to most fishes. The Geos get 80% of the food that sinks, but they don't feed from the surface very much, so the _leucosticta_ get almost all of the floating foods, so it evens out I think. 


> And have you tried them with different tankmates?


Not many, just _Geophagus_ n.sp. "TapajÃƒÂ³s Orange Head", _Hemigrammus rodwayi_ (Gold Tetra) and _Hyphessobrycon pulchripinnis_ (Lemon Tetra). When I first got them, they chased the tetra for a few days but aren't capable of catching them, now they don't pay any attention to them.

I've never kept silver dollars, so I can't comment on them as tankmates.

Ed


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## Flyfisher (Jan 5, 2010)

I've read conflicting reoprts on the web about water paremeters for these guys and for all the eartheaters. It seems that some are definite no no's for hard water yet others have been successfully kept at higher than 8ph. Water is hard where I live so this may affect my final decision on what species to go for. I just can't get excited about the thought of purchasing and using an RO filter to do percentage water changes.
I'm not in this for breeding fish but I'd like to see them happy and showing good colour. 
Not too far from me I know of 2 or 3 people who have bred tapajos redheads a number of times at 7.6 and 7.8
what temp is good for both these and for leucosticta? My dollars are at 26 but I was thinking of 27 for my new tank when adding eartheaters. Would this be high enough? 
I too have lemon tetras and was perhaps thinking of keepng these with this new setup and increasing numbers to about 20 or 30


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

Certainly many people in the states have also bred orange heads at pH 7.8 without any problems. They are a _very_ hardy species. 27Ã‚Âº would be good for either species, for the _leucosticta_ even 28-29Ã‚Âº would be okay.

I think the _leucosticta_ would do best in a large group (6-8 ) with no other cichlids and lots of tetra. The OH are more adaptable and are probably suited to a wider range of tankmates, and certainly a wider range of parameters.


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## Flyfisher (Jan 5, 2010)

Yes I'm almost definitely heading in the direction of a group of 6 or 7 tapajos red/orangeheads. Most I've seen over here sem to be red.
Do you have experience of any other geos that would compare to the tapajos redheads for being adaptable To harder water, and for their ability to feed fast and compete well?


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

I use the name _Geophagus_ n.sp. "TapajÃƒÂ³s Orange Head" because it's the name used by Thomas Weidner in 2004 when they first appeared in the literature. A lot of vendors use "red head" to try and sell fishes, but they are all the same fishes. And "n.sp." just means new species.

Others okay with harder water would be _G. abalios_ and some of the variants of _G. altifrons_, such as those from the Rio TapajÃƒÂ³s (the most common in the US). Ones from black water rivers like the Rio Xingu or Rio ***** would appreciate softer water.. As a general rule, second and third generation fish are more agreeable with hard water/high pH than wild fishes. The orange heads are probably the most active, best feeding, most hardy species of _Geophagus_.


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## Flyfisher (Jan 5, 2010)

Thanks Ed, I ll do a bit of research on abalios and the altifrons you mentioned. I do love the altifrons, but worry that once full size even a 6x2x2 tank is not quite big enough. What do you think? I will talk to one shop I've dealt with in the past who are very good at sourcing fish, and mention that I'd prefer to avoid wild fish and ask if their Singapore suppliers offer tank bred altifrons and others. I've read that they introduced these fish there and they now inhabit lakes and streams. If this is the case, I'm sure they must be breeding them too. 
I think I ll know, once I see my tank set up and running in my living room, what size of geos I should choose, but it's great to get other opinions and hear of experience.
Cheers


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

Just an update...

The fry from December 08 are now 5 1/2 - 6" and bred for the first time last week. They weren't successful, but maybe next time.


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## macclellan (Nov 30, 2006)

Thanks for sharing. Great progression pics.

Let me know when you're ready to send me some of the next gen. Just kidding, but seriously, let me know.


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## Isis24 (Dec 10, 2008)

Wow, they look great! I love reading your updates; thanks for sharing!!


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## JK47 (Nov 13, 2009)

Lovely pictures and fish Ed. I wish I were able to photograph my Satanoperca that well.


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

Thanks everyone for the kind words. They laid eggs again yesterday but the mother and a different female gradually snacked on the eggs despite the males best efforts to fend them off.


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

Well they've really went crazy, two pairs have fry at the same time. One is the same pair this thread was originally about from two years ago, the other is the fry (now adults) from then.

A video of one pair and fry
http://s191.photobucket.com/albums/z3/e ... V05920.mp4

Ed


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