# Sump questions....first timer....please help



## coonie (May 23, 2011)

so i am gonna attempt to make my sump....i plan on stacking 4 10g tanks with a overflow into each one...the last tank will then dump into my sump...i plan on using another 10g or maybe a 20....few main questions are....if i put a air stone in my sump that should airrate all tanks the water flows in correct? and will putting a tap to slow the flow off the pump damage the pump? i cant find any pics on what my setup is going to look like so i hope u understand....please any help or comments on anything to do with my sump would be a great help. thanks.


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## moto_master (Jun 23, 2006)

So your 4 10 gallon tanks are going to be in series, one flowing into the next. And the last tank will flow into your sump, and then pumped back into the first 10 gallon? Sounds interesting, post pictures when you're done. Air stones don't actually do much airrating of the water. But when the bubble pop on the surface, they agitated the surface water, which does most of your airration. If the surface of the water in the tanks is rippling, maybe from water flowing into the tank, that will be plenty and you won't even need an air stone.

I see on here all the time people put valves on the lines after a pump to slow the flow. Some pumps even have it built into the pump. What are you keeping in these tanks?


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## coonie (May 23, 2011)

yeah they will be stacked ontop of each other on a stand of course....gonna drill and put bulk heads near the top of tank....since stacked the first tank will overflow into the 2nd and the 2nd into the 3rd and the 3rd into the 4th and the 4th into the sump....the sump then will return it to tank 1....i have it in my head lol...i plan on keeping fry in these tanks....i have limited room as i am in a apartment....so im gonna put it in my water tank closet...lots of room. i already have 5 10g tanks waiting and ready.

is a 10g sump big enough?
what media do i use in my sump? bio balls? carbon bags? gravel?
will all this even work? first attempt at anything like this...but im not a dummy lol


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## coonie (May 23, 2011)

i have been doing alot of DIY stuff....i am pretty sure i can tackle this....might have a few ups and downs but i have to learn somehow...


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## The King Crabb (Jun 28, 2011)

Hate to crush your dreams here, but that will be very hard to make work. In building a sump there is very little math involved, the only bit is finding out how much will flow into the sump at the end so it doesn't overflow onto the floor. With 5 tanks stacked up you're going to have to have a very large tank on the bottom, which will be hard to fit in between the legs of a 10G stand.


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## coonie (May 23, 2011)

if the pump puts in the first tank should be what comes out the 4th tank if i were to say shut the power off? or am i wrong?


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## moto_master (Jun 23, 2006)

There's going to be excess water from each tank, plus the water in the return pipe, and overflow. I'm guessing your going to be building the stand for it? You can build it around a 20 gallon if you needed to. For filter media, almost any thing would work. I like the sound of layers of large pore open cell foam. I think you can make this work, if you think everything through before you start it.


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## coonie (May 23, 2011)

i was going to put a check valve in the pump line....and yes i'm gonna build the stand....i really think a 10 sump would work.....but i have had thoughts of the 20g sump...


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## coonie (May 23, 2011)

i dunno really...this is why i am asking before i even begin


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## Guams (Aug 21, 2009)

Instead of going 1x4 with your tank (1 column of four 10 gallon tanks), why not go 2x2 (2 columns of two 10 gallon tanks)? This would give you a longer footprint to have a reasonably sized sump underneath and there wouldn't be much addition to plumbing. The pump could push water into the top two tanks, which drain into the bottom two tanks and the bottom two tanks drain into the sump.

In reality, you will have a lot more water drain into the sump during a power outage than you think. With a 10 gallon sump, that doesn't leave a lot of room for error. Plus, you won't have much water in the sump to begin with and you'll be topping off very frequently due to evaporation.

Also, the overflows/drain pipes should aerate the water enough that you wouldn't need an air stone in the sump. I, however, put an air stone in my sump because the surface would get a thick film on it from not moving. The air stone was put in place simply to remove that film and it's doing a wonderful job, but I don't rely on it for oxygenating the water.

You also mention planning to keep fry in these tanks. I would plan for a way to very easily change the water frequently. If it were me, I would drill the sump near the bottom (or on the bottom pane if it's not tempered glass) and put a bulkhead in. Attach a 90* PVC elbow, and a length of PVC ending with a gate valve. When it comes time to change the water, shut the system down and let the water drain into the sump. Open the gate valve and the water will drain from the sump into... wherever. Maybe hook a hose up to the gate valve at WC time and run the hose to a floor drain.

If you design a 2x2 stand, you should be able to easily fit a 30 gallon long underneath it for the sump. You'll have 40 gallons of water in the fry tanks... and maybe 20 gallons in the sump. That should be a sufficient amount for the frequent water changes on fry tanks.

Sorry for the long post...


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## inurocker (May 9, 2011)

I think you will need at least a 20 gal for the sump and your overflows will have to be bullet proof. One clog in the drain system and thing will get wet real fast.


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## CITADELGRAD87 (Mar 26, 2003)

Here's the issue with sumps that I quickly learned from setting one up but was not apparent in reading about them:

The sump tank itself CANNOT be run at "full" capacity, because when the lights go out, some amount of water is in the plumbing, and in the main tanks that will still exit until the antisiphon or pickup tube or whatever is running dry.

That amount of water adds up VERY quickly when you are watching a 10G tank that already has water in become a catch basin.

I tried a 24G on my 100 gallon that I am working up, and was using a pump that needed to be underwater by about 4 inches to avoid sucking air. That put me at about 2/3 full with the plumbing full. When I unplugged it to see what would happen, it filled to the brin if not downright overflowed. The sweet spot was achievable, but VERY small. Any amount of water less ie eveaporation, the pump started sucking air, any amount more, mess on the floor.

I found a used 60G on Craigs list for $40, and I never looked back. Now, that same 8 gallons or so of plumbing water and the bit taht drains form the tank before the antisiphon kicks in is no longer 25% of my sump capacity. It's still 8G, but I can run 45 gallons in the sump now and have 4-5 INCHES of space after the pump shuts off. For something in my house, I need this peace of mind.

I am not sure there would be any sweet spot in a 10G.

Don't despair, you could do a 20 or 25-30 and you would be fine, just put a downtube/elbow on your sump pump and CAREFULLY mark how much water should be in the system while it is running, check that several times with power failure simulation, and never go over that mark while filling.


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## coonie (May 23, 2011)

i dont have room for a 2x2....this has really discouraged me reading all this...my plan was to feed the top tank just enough water for a consant stream though the bulk heads...i honestly think it would work...but i'f i went and built all this n it didn't i'd be even more pissed....i planned on putting a check valve on the return pipe close to the sump so if the power goes out it does not drain the water back into the sump...with that check valve i honestly beleieve a 10 g is enough........does anyone know of a site or something i can read up more on this?


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## CITADELGRAD87 (Mar 26, 2003)

I do not want to discourage you at all. I want you to go into this with the understanding of the challenges you are going to have to overcome. Otherwise it will be frustrating, not a challenge you can overcome.

We will help you if we can, I just wanted you to know the problems I found with my system.

Honestly, now that you mention it, when I built mine, I was not trying to minimize the power failure flow, I was trying to maximize the performance when the power is on. WHen I got around to testing it for power outages, whatever happened happened. If you plan this with minimum flow after the power goes out as a design feature, I have no doubt you can do it. Just be aware when you are placing the bulkheads that you want them VERY close to the top so minimal water flow after any outage will occur.

Others have said the check valves might fail, of course, anything made by man might fail.

Skech up some designs and let us take a look, this is a great place for inventors.


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## coonie (May 23, 2011)

i have a design on paper that i took a pic of....but dont know how to post it....i have given this tonnes of thought and i swear it'll work....the maximun performance isn't a issue as i'll be doing frequent water changes


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## moto_master (Jun 23, 2006)

To post a picture you need to open an account on a picture hosting website. I use photobucket.com. Upload your picture, then copy the "Direct link" code. Then come to this site and click the "Img" button above the, past the "Direct link" code, then click the "Img" button again. Click "Preview" below to check to see if it worked, then click "Submit."


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## The King Crabb (Jun 28, 2011)

I'm not trying to discourage either, but it will be very hard to do this. I imagine that if you have 2 check valves between each of each tank it will really minimize the chance of overflowing, but it can still fail. If you're already relying on check valves why not drill them at the perfect place for a water change? I'd drill them about 40% down from the top and somewhere between the next tank have a tee on there and have a few inches of pipe then a ball valve, after the ball valve have more piping going out with a hose faucet on there so you can put on a hose, point it out a window, open the ball valve, and you have a perfectly measured easy to do water change every time. Me and my brain are even thinking about connected them all together just inches from the ground so you can do them all at once...


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## coonie (May 23, 2011)

i really dont know what i'm gonna do now.....i still swear my way willw ork....if only u could understand thios brain LOL


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*coonie*
*** setup cascading tanks... It can work. But every single thing that has been brought up is oh so true. In my humble opinion, setting this up in a living space where flooding would be a disaster is madness... With so many possible failure points, the risk here is so high! Is it really worth it to plumb them together? In your shoes i would have the top three running on their own and put the sump running to a single tank. If you do proceed, consider your syphon breaks and return pump velocity very carefully. :thumb:


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## The King Crabb (Jun 28, 2011)

Number6 has a good point. You could probably buy a good airpump and several sponge filters for the price it would take you to plumb all this!


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## coonie (May 23, 2011)

ugh i think ur right....sponge filters and air pumps might just have to be the ticket


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## The King Crabb (Jun 28, 2011)

Not necessarily a bad thing! This way you can have 5 tanks running instead of using one as a sump, plus it should be much more reliable and cheaper. How are you going to light these bad boys?


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## coonie (May 23, 2011)

right now i'm not gonna worry about it...but i can get myself 12inch strip lights that would work...i will do that after i have the tanks going


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## moto_master (Jun 23, 2006)

I was bored today so I rigged something up for you. This was a VERY crude test:










Just had one tank overflowing into the next, etc.
I found that there was only 1.5 gallons of water displaced when the pump was running. So a 10 gallon would work in my opinion. Of course, the higher the flow rate the more water is going to be displaced at one time, but I don't think you're going to want too high of a flow rate on this set up. one thing to think about is, What's going to stop the fry from washing down the over flow? for this reason, I think that sponge filters might be a better option.


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## coonie (May 23, 2011)

yeah i'm going the filter way...i have my 4 10g tanks waiting here already...tomorrow i am getting 4 sponge filters and 4 air pumps......by the end of this week i'll have it up and running...i'll be sure to make a video of whenever it is done and going.....i cant fricken wait.....this hobby is addicting....i live in 1 bedroom apartment and have alot of tanks lol


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## Agridion (Sep 8, 2010)

:thumb: yes it is very addicting. Why not go with one air pump and buy a tree ( 5 way manifold with flow control valves). It might be cheaper to buy and to operate. JMTC


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## coonie (May 23, 2011)

i have someone selling me 4 sponge filters and 3 air pumps for $35 tomorrow......and this way each sponge filter is gettin a good ammount of air flow to work at it's peak....


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## Agridion (Sep 8, 2010)

moto_master said:


> I was bored today so I rigged something up for you. This was a VERY crude test:


 That picture is awesome! 8) It made me laugh. How long did it take you to get them all to pour into one another. You don't by chance have a few cars laying around that don't work , do you? :lol: j/k


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## The King Crabb (Jun 28, 2011)

coonie said:


> ...And this way each sponge filter is gettin a good ammount of air flow to work at it's peak....


Why not buy an air pump with 4 valves? I've got one and it's amazing, I'd love to put it on something like this if I had one!


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## moto_master (Jun 23, 2006)

Agridion said:


> That picture is awesome! 8) It made me laugh. How long did it take you to get them all to pour into one another. You don't by chance have a few cars laying around that don't work , do you? :lol: j/k


I'm remodeling my house, that's why there's sheetrock, dishwasher, etc on my front porch. I unscrewed the rails to fit the tank through. The only ******* thing I don't have an excuse for is the tire...


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## Agridion (Sep 8, 2010)

moto_master said:


> Agridion said:
> 
> 
> > That picture is awesome! 8) It made me laugh. How long did it take you to get them all to pour into one another. You don't by chance have a few cars laying around that don't work , do you? :lol: j/k
> ...


Lol that's good. I'm glad you knew I was joking... But I really do love the setup you did, its fast and shows the idea quite nicely.

Coonie.... I think you will be happy you changed the design to sponge filters instead of one fountain system.... You can now have five 10 gallon tank setups instead of 4 since you will be doing sponge filters and can utilize the tank you were going to use as a sump for another fry tank. More fish for the same space. :thumb:

opcorn:


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