# BG Disaster unleashed!



## Amazilia (Sep 5, 2009)

Okay, something went terribly wrong and I am sure it was me.... There was a lot of silicone in there. Weird part is appears that the silicone held and styro actually broke. Hubby thinks maybe water pressure with all the different ledges was too much due to the buoyancy? Here are some horrific pictures after months of waiting and hours and hours of work...So it has all gone in the garbage    and will have to start from scratch and do a normal one..Last pic are the only pieces to be unmovable - will have to be scraped out or incorporated into the new BG.
Very upset at first - now calmed down - all that work... and how do I get the sand out now?
That is my question though - will it be bad for the sand now that it has been wet and is going to have to sit and wait for the next project which I am NOT going to take forever to do! Thankfully there were no fish in there yet.
Here are pics of what not to do with your DIY BG!


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

ouch.
Really sorry for your disaster. I know what its like, and how exhausting it is when you think of fixing it all. I went through something similar (not with BG) but I had to remove ALL my sand.
The way I did it was siphoning it all out with a standard garden hose. siphon the water+sand into large buckets. The sand will all settle into the base of the bucket, and the water will overflow. 
This was much easier than using a spade/scoop to remove sand bit by bit. I was able to remove COMPLETELY all my sand this way.

hope that helps.


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## Pali (Dec 22, 2009)

Awwww what a bummer, so sorry for all your wated time and effort. I can imagine how anoying that have been, hope the next one works.

I use a dustpan to remove my sand when I need to empty a tank, IMO much faster then siphoning it out. So I empty the tank and "dig" it out, the last bit on the bottom I wait a few day till it drys on the bottom and then I swipe it up with a small soft broom or use the vacum cleaner if im home alone :lol:

The lady of the house don't think it's made for aquarium sand and the bags are too pricy to use like that, bla bla bla. IMO it won't break it and I don't care if I spend 5 $ on vacum bags, I have no idea what they cost heheheheh as she buys them and vacums the house most of the time. She stoped asking me if I would vacum around the house more often, after she found me vacuming a empty tank for graval and sand leftover.

Im like "Whaaaat im doing what you asked me am I not?"

Best of luck with your new BG and cleaning up the old one


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Sorry to hear about your disaster. Sometimes a bobbing background can take out the center braces as it surfaces, and knock light fixtures into the water, so it could have been worse.

Siphoning the sand into buckets will work. I am a little impatient, so I make a scoop from a rectangular clear plastic pretzel jar by cutting off the top, raking my cut back slightly toward the side with the handle so I can get into corners. The last bit of sand (or gravel too) can be siphoned out, but there won't be much the pretzel scoop can't get. I have to keep buying the pretzels that come in these because my wife sees this scoop and thinks it's trash. Fortunately it takes only seconds now to make a new one.

I always figure that glue is not going to hold styrofoam together, or even working with solid 12" thick pieces (available from boating supply stores where they are made to be cut down to fit under seats as floatation devices) that it will break apart if it can't break free as it has a constant force lifting it that sooner or later could win out. Wrapping the background with nylon yarn and stitching through it where it's concave (takes a big yarn needle), will hold it together with more strength than the strength of the styrofoam and provide texture for the BG coating to hold onto. Making openings and caves in the foam reduces its bouyancy and you can fill some of those with mortar or rocks to make it close to neutrally bouyant, or better, slightly a sinker. I would rather do it that way so I can set it in in two or three pieces to get around the top braces, and later lift it out if I want to, without having to get out the carpenters saw and cut it out.


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## Demasoni17 (Mar 11, 2010)

I'm sorry Amazilia, that sucks to see all your hard go to waste. It also makes me nervous because I just finished siliconing in my own DIY background. Mine isn't as large as yours but I kind of used the same method of stacking. I hope it holds when I fill the tank. . .

Did yours bust right after filling it up?


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## Amazilia (Sep 5, 2009)

Demasoni wrote: Did yours bust right after filling it up?

No, it actually didn't break until about 3 days later - I have been thinking about this and I think it was because I am not an engineer  and so when I measured and fretted etc I still didn't calculate right and when the Emporer was place on that side the next day we could see that it was a bit too high to fit under the emporer and had popped up just under that. I was trying to fix it but I think it had already been pulling and just pulled everything apart in different places because it was all attached to each other.

McDaphnia wrote: Wrapping the background with nylon yarn and stitching through it where it's concave (takes a big yarn needle), will hold it together with more strength than the strength of the styrofoam and provide texture for the BG coating to hold onto. Making openings and caves in the foam reduces its bouyancy and you can fill some of those with mortar or rocks to make it close to neutrally bouyant, or better, slightly a sinker. I would rather do it that way so I can set it in in two or three pieces to get around the top braces, and later lift it out if I want to, without having to get out the carpenters saw and cut it out.

Thanks for that tip McDaphnia - I think I will try the neutral buoyancy as it would be nice to be able to remove if needed. By nylon yarn I am assuming you mean like fishing line?

Thanks all for the ideas of getting the sand out - I think I will be trying a combo of scoop and siphon... I think I need to quit trying to do something different and stick with the tried and true!
Hope this is helpful for all those trying to build a BG. Guess I will now follow much more closely the instructions from R-Dub, MightyEvil, and littlejoenc.


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## Demasoni17 (Mar 11, 2010)

Now I am seriously questioning the structural stability of my creation. . It's in 3 pieces, I think the side pieces should be ok as they are siliconed to the sides of the aquarium as well as the bottom and back.

It's the center piece that has me worried: It's bascially a shelf that comes out about 7 inches and it's only secured to the back of the aquarium, to the two side pieces (which it straddles), and only on the bottom by a skinny 5 inch rock column that I built.

Oh well, I guess there is really only one way to find out. I just don't like the feeling of my BG being a ticking time bomb. . .


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Amazilia said:


> Thanks for that tip McDaphnia - I think I will try the neutral buoyancy as it would be nice to be able to remove if needed. By nylon yarn I am assuming you mean like fishing line?


Monofilament fishing line will work, but I have found nylon yarn to work better. It is the stuff the killifish and rainbowfish hobbyists use to make spawning mops. The morter or waterproofer you coat the foam with can grab on to the yarn, so you have less problems later with chipping.

http://www.joann.com/joann/catalog/prod ... D=prd22586

JoAnn pushes the pink online, but it comes in a brown/green blend good for spawning mops. Does not really matter what color it is because you will coat over it.


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## Amazilia (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks McDaphnia! I already have some of that since I used to make scarves when it was all the rage...
I am going to Lowes to get more styro and start again. My hubby really liked the look I had so he is going to help me make it neutrally buoyant - Yay! 
We'll see what we come up with...


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

was it siliconed to the back? it doesn't look like there is any silicone still sticking to the back of the tank, which makes me think it never was


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## shaguars7 (Apr 12, 2009)

yes you should make one very much the same...when i saw it completed in another thread..i was like wow :thumb: so it will be hard to out do the previous attempt. But i will wait and see opcorn: goodluck


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Maybe some real rocks to lay against the bottom front would help also?


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## Amazilia (Sep 5, 2009)

It was only siliconed to back here and there. It was siliconed mostly to the bottom and also a bit on the sides. It was my first attempt so many lessons learned.  Everyone on here was wonderful and helpful but I do have a stubborn streak about doing things differently so that is what happens. :x Onward we go 8) :fish:


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## paradigmsk8er (Apr 13, 2009)

fwiw...the more silicone the better..on my 100 60x18x24 I used 5 tubes on the background just securing it. The bottom, back and sides can take a ton...don't risk it


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

Never done one before, but just curious, how long can a BG last?
If you scratch it with rocks etc, or the fish nibbles on it.... wouldn't the paint come off and ruin it after a few months?


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

kabuto said:


> Never done one before, but just curious, how long can a BG last?
> If you scratch it with rocks etc, or the fish nibbles on it.... wouldn't the paint come off and ruin it after a few months?


 By then algae and bacterial films that grow on submerged surfaces can fill in the defects, unless you have big spots breaking off. If it worries you, they make these things out of resin which is much sturdier and has fewer potential hazards. If you buy them ready made, they are expensive, and you don't save that much DIY'ing them.


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## R-DUB (Jun 3, 2007)

Sorry to see this happen!   
One tip that I would give to anyone building this type of BG is THINNER IS BETTER!!!! There is really no reason to bake the BG 6-8 inches thick. Even hiding intake tubes, heaters, pvc, etc... only takes a few inches. And only in certain areas. The rest of the BG can be relatively thin. Especially if it is between rocks. These crevices can be very thin. This will help keep the BG in place and give much more room for the fish. Also silicone silicone silicone! At a few dollars a tube this is very cheap insurance. I would say at least a tube per ft. Just my 2 cents. Good Luck!


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## SoDakJeep (Mar 21, 2009)

it really looks like you didnt have enough silicone on your bg. That is the key for sure. If you think you added to much you need to add a little more lol. Sorry to see that happen but if your like me you know you wanted to do something just a little bit different and you can take this and redo it now. it looked great but more silicone is the key.


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## Amazilia (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks again guys! I do believe it was not enough silicone too. So if it is a tube a foot I would need to use at least 4 tubes. :thumb: 
What about putting some slate on top of the pieces to help hold them in? Can you put real slate in a tank? (We have a lot of extra slate as the bottom part of our house is slate).

Just a front view of part of new background









More gaps and caves in this one









Side view - much narrower than first one - by at least 1/2


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## paradigmsk8er (Apr 13, 2009)

slate works great in aquariums.

I would use more then 4 tubes...just to be safe. I ran a 3/8" bead every inch for the entire length of my background, as well as the sides, and bottom..and filled the seams on the edges.

I think the slate, less foam, and more silicone will fix any problems


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## R-DUB (Jun 3, 2007)

I think if the silicone does not hold. Then you are SOL. Keep in mind that a surf board is styro. A full grown man can stand on it and not sink it. Even two people on a surf board. That is a lot of slate. Silicone silicone silicone.
:thumb: 
opcorn:


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## mightyevil (Oct 23, 2008)

Amazilia,

First off, I am sorry that your original background didn't work out, if it is of any consolation, the second one is looking better. I too blame it on the silicone, it wasn't enough and you need to use it on the back since there is more contact area between glass and styrofoam. The gaps or caves you are making are very nice but all that styrofoam that is being held by the sides of the caves will break apart in my opinion if not siliconed from the back to the glass. I really don't think that you can neutralize the buoyancy of the styrofoam, as mentioned previously, styrofoam is extremely buoyant and can keep hundreds of pounds floating. You also need to use enough silicone in between sheets, on my backgrounds I would put a full layer or silicone in between sheets to cover all the contact area. This will prevent the pieces from breaking apart... mcdaphnia's idea with the yarn is a good one but I would silicone first, carve it and then use yarn I that is the way you would like to go about securing it together.

Sorry I was late to this but my other hobby has been taking my time at this time.


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## kbolin (Apr 26, 2010)

OUCH! 

I wrote you earlier today via you-tube messages about this bg and by luck stumbled across this here.

I am so sorry this has happened and I hope the next works out for you better. I have begun my own now and will take all the info I'm reading here to help us as well...

If you'd like to send info or answer the message I sent, that'd be appreciated greatly....if not, I understand...

Thanks,
Keith and Kathy


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

mightyevil said:


> Amazilia,
> 
> ... I really don't think that you can neutralize the buoyancy of the styrofoam, as mentioned previously,.....


 Back in the 80's I should have kept it secret I was adding some styrofoam to their rock (slate, or sandstone, or etc.) and cement backgrounds to reduce the weight pressing on the tank bottom. Now we have the opposite problem, backgrounds exploding up through the tank's light canopy and the tank's plastic top frame. Instead of falling through the bottom we shoot for the stars because we go to extremes. What happened to moderation? If you hollow out a cave in the foam, you reduce its buoyancy. If you fill the cave with rock and cement, you can eliminate the net buoyancy. Keep it up and the background will sink slowly to the bottom once you have replaced enough of the foam with heavier materials.



mightyevil said:


> ... mcdaphnia's idea with the yarn is a good one but .....


 The nylon yarn acts like a net around and through the pieces, holding them together, so silicone inside them is not really doing anything. It won't hurt or help. It's like a sugar pill. Take it if it makes you feel better.

The old way of reducing the buoyancy and texturizing foam was dangerous and produced a byproduct that was incredibly unstable. Cutting it out, or brushing it with acetone so that the air bubbles can escape from the softened plastic works more safely.


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## nipzie (Nov 24, 2008)

Just leave the back concrete-less, after you're done the concreting (keeping in mind you said you wanted neutral buoyancy, might as well try negative buoyancy) and dissolve the styro after you're done. Just think of it as dissolving the form after the concrete has set, leaving only a film of polystyrene with no air bubbles in it. Acetone is cheap as well, just do it outside. As an added point, designing it to be taken in/out of the tank is an engineering feat all in itself, so you'll have to think about that now. As well, any corners that could scratch you glass as you put it in/out cover with a thin layer of clear aquarium silicone.


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## nipzie (Nov 24, 2008)

I should add, you will have to keep an idea of whether or not you want to use the hollowed out backs as caves themselves, or whether you want them blocked off. Right now is the time to figure all that out. If not used as caves, you need open point(s) on the very highest point for air to escape when filling, and open point(s) on the very bottom for water/fish to escape when draining. Or just "hollow" out the ones you want to make caves and leave some with styro to help make it lighter in the water.


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## Amazilia (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks everyone! I have cut down the new BG in the above pics even more. Thanks Mighty for your input - I understand about "other" hobbies as I just tonight finished my sons quilt I have been working on for a year - hence me being on and off. But my aquariums are still my main hobby - I love them!!!
Anyway I digress - I believe I have learned alot due to my mistake on the first one and am certainly making it MUCH smaller and using WAY more silicone! This BG will also be siliconed to the back instead of just the sides and bottom. It was totally stuck at the bottom and hubby had to scrape out for me. I used a lot on the bottom. 
The new BG is drawn out and partially carved at this point. Coming along nicely. Have been really planning and measuring so should be perfect fit!
It is a combo of several BG's I have seen. Here is a sneak peak:










I do have one other question - I purchase a bubbler bar which was on the back of the tank before but now that the BG will be siliconed to back too should I carve a spot for it, or silicone it to the bottom or side of the tank, or underneath a piece of the styrofoam? Any suggestions?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

Amazilia said:


> It was only siliconed to back here and there. It was siliconed mostly to the bottom and also a bit on the sides. It was my first attempt so many lessons learned.  Everyone on here was wonderful and helpful but I do have a stubborn streak about doing things differently so that is what happens. :x Onward we go 8) :fish:


yeah the entire back needs to be siliconed, if you only silicone in certain places, those spots will anchor and the others will try to float, putting stress on the styro then it will break


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## mightyevil (Oct 23, 2008)

Amazilia said:


> I do have one other question - I purchase a bubbler bar which was on the back of the tank before but now that the BG will be siliconed to back too should I carve a spot for it, or silicone it to the bottom or side of the tank, or underneath a piece of the styrofoam? Any suggestions?


I think that siliconing it to the bottom of a piece of styro would be best. run some tubing behind the background incorporating it into the background so that it is flush with the background and give yourself some extra tubing to place the bubbler anywhere in the tank. buy two extensions, one to attach to the end of the that leads to the pump and one to the end leading to the bubbler.

Here is a picture, hope it all makes sense...


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## Amazilia (Sep 5, 2009)

thanks Mighty,
when I ran the tubing under my last background I had extra in front because I wasn't sure where I would be putting my single bubbler. I could not get the airline to stay below the sand and have the same problem in my 55. I use rocks in the 55 and could certainly do the same in the 90. Is there something I am missing or are rocks the answer? :fish:


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## mightyevil (Oct 23, 2008)

I have used zip ties along with the zip tie holding square thingies attached to the bottom, they are easy to remove once you want to get rid of them. The glue didn't affect my water or at least I don't think it did because my fish didn't seem to mind it. You can also use dabs of silicone to hold the tubing down, never done that but I don't see why it wouldn't work. Last but not least the rock thing is not such a bad idea if you are going to use them anyway.


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## Amazilia (Sep 5, 2009)

I have changed the BG a bit and think I finally have something I like. A combo of rock look, my original, and a tree...The BG is 3 inches thick and up to 4 inches in very few spots...
Any suggestions before I silicone together and drylok?


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## R-DUB (Jun 3, 2007)

The BG looks great! I found that Gorilla Glue works fantastic to hold styro to styro. It makes a bond stronger than the styro itself. However I have not tried it on blue styro. I would also try to "round" the tree limbs more. Give them some added dimension. Maybe some more caves. Just my 2 cents. Overall great job!


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## SoDakJeep (Mar 21, 2009)

Go to the store and buy a gas blow torch. They come in little cans and look like this









Then you just quickly run the flame over the stryro and it melts it giving it a more natural look. I would suggest you try it on some unused pieces of foam 1st but I really think you would like the look it would create.

BG looks great by the way. Just want to make sure you are using plenty of silicone wouldnt want that to happen again.


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## newfisher (Dec 20, 2008)

An electric heat gun (used to strip paint) would be much safer and give better control than an open flame. Both methods should be done outdoors.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

newfisher said:


> An electric heat gun (used to strip paint) would be much safer and give better control than an open flame. Both methods should be done outdoors.


There was some earlier post on using heat that pointed out heat degrades plastic causing it to leach toxins created by the heating process. I think they had some study that supported the contention. of course we are going to seal all that in with cement and paint, so maybe it won't affect the fish.


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## Amazilia (Sep 5, 2009)

Thanks all! Will be doing some tweaking and then will post again when all done with my BG so you don't have to wait so long for the "next" part. :wink:


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