# Can a Jack Dempsey OR Salvini be with a Pair of Convicts?



## MonsterCichlids (Jan 25, 2012)

just exploring possible tank mates for a young convict pair in a 75 gallon. I wanted to know if either of these specifically would work out...a female salvini or a female jack dempsey? Would any fry survive or would the JD or Sal keep pestering the pair?


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## irondan (Nov 22, 2007)

i had 6 bonded pair of central and south american cichlids in my 125 including jds and salvini, and all of them were breeding. the only pair to successfully raise a brood were the convicts. they are ruthless when protecting fry.


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## MonsterCichlids (Jan 25, 2012)

irondan said:


> i had 6 bonded pair of central and south american cichlids in my 125 including jds and salvini, and all of them were breeding. the only pair to successfully raise a brood were the convicts. they are ruthless when protecting fry.


Thats awesome, yeah i know convicts are like little devils when protecting fry...would they get too aggressive for a female JD or salvini to handle? like would the convicts just beat up the other fish all day?


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

MonsterCichlids said:


> like would the convicts just beat up the other fish all day?


It's really a difficult question to answer with any certainty as it depends on many, many variables. Amongst CA cichlids, often cons will be the most dominant when young, small and undeveloped. That a fish can stand up to them can vary through the life of a fish.....be quite different at different points in time.

IME, after many, many successfull spawns, cons mellow out considerably when protecting their fry. I think they become more confident in being successfull and don't over react as much as a young new pair does. Of course I have tanks where there are many fish that can stand up to them. How much space they claim is largely dependant on there 'power' realative to their tankmates. Sometimes where they mark the line and threaten or chase away an opponent is at a different place or point for different tankmates.

I've generally don't stock a tank with a pair and just one tankmate; usually have a few more fish. But 75 gal. doesn't allow for too many CA tankmates with a pair of cons. Have had JD in the past that stood up to cons, though they were large males; don't ever recall much with female JD threatening with cons along a border. My female sals often do threaten with the cons. My male sals have done a lot more :lol: Fought them tell they actually loose or the cons simply don't have the power to hold space against the male sal and don't lay any eggs.


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## MonsterCichlids (Jan 25, 2012)

bernie comeau said:


> MonsterCichlids said:
> 
> 
> > like would the convicts just beat up the other fish all day?
> ...


I see what you mean, sals really are a very powerful force to be reckoned with in terms of mid sized CA cichlids. Convicts are too but of course a fully grown male sal could be a **** of a lot for the convicts to deal with while they are trying to protect their young. Let me ask you this, could i put a JD or a female Sal in the tank with the convicts, but ALSO add a school of dithers to help take the focus off the other cichlid? Something like some Buenos Aires tetras, or giant danios?


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## mok3t (Nov 28, 2008)

I think a JD or a male salvini might be too much. Female salvini was fine for me though 

I kept a pair of cons and a salvini in a 100l years ago with no REAL issues. Female salvini was territorial but not over much territory. She also knew that letting the cons spawn meant night time snacking. She was an absolute assassin. the cons never saw her coming.

Only bad thing that ever happened was when the sal wiped the convict fry out and i guess the male blamed the female and bullied her out. There wasnt enough room and she got a bit hammered. After a week in hosp. tank she was fine and he accepted her back and they were fine after that till i sold them all on.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

MonsterCichlids said:


> but ALSO add a school of dithers to help take the focus off the other cichlid? Something like some Buenos Aires tetras, or giant danios?


Well as you might know "dither" and "target" are two completely different roles......and all fish in a tank perform these roles, some better then others. The 'dither' role is to liven up the tank and make shy or scared fish feel comfortable. The target role is to spread out aggression and to take focus away from being placed on one fish. Cons in general seldom need other tankmates for the dither role and they are themselves very good dithers for other CA. Salvini and JD on the other hand often need numerous tankmates to feel comfortable in a tank.

Your asking the wrong person about small schooling dithers. I certainly don't advocate them with aggressive CA...never have. There is nothing "traditional" nor "appropriate", IMO, of stocking these little defenseless fish in a tank with aggressive CA just so they can get killed and pounded on. I think the idea comes from the SA crowd...people that really didn't have experience with the more aggressive cichlids. What is an apporpriate dither for the keyhole cichlid, is often not likely a suitable tankmate for say, a red devil. I don't see CA tanks with small schooling fish. Lot's starting out on this form stocking this way, but in the 5 years I have been on this fourum I have yet to see the LONG TERM success with these kinds of fishes. Sure, with large Veija that are typically only aggressive to other large CA, or much less aggressive CA cichlids such as a rainbow cichlid (Archoecentrus multisponisa).......but with salvini, JD and breeding cons, I don't think small schooling dithers are a good bet.

Small schooling dithers will perform the dither role well. But they are poor target fish. Largely ignored, so they really don't take a cichlid's focus away from other cichlids. Then when a little attention is paid to them they are not able to take a small bite and are easily killed. Swimming constantly and often too "stupid' to stay out of a cichlids territory they can eventually annoy and cichlid will take action or be actually small enough to be eaten. Definately wrong to think they are too fast to be caught....too fast generally to make it worth the cichlids effort to chase it around the tank but if it get's with in striking distance, most cichlids pocess a lightning fast dart. Even a paradise fish has been known to kill giant danios :lol:

As far as other tankmates that will perform the 'dither' and target roles with aggressive CA I like mbuna and blue gourami, as well as various bottom feeder/algae eaters as tankmates. IME, and IMO they last, unlike small schooling 'dithers'.


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## mok3t (Nov 28, 2008)

You could use some very hardy barbs like tigers or odessas with the breeding pair in a tank your size. Would be in place of another cichlid though. With 2 territories there might not be enough swimming space for the barbs. They'd be in someones face all the time getting smashed. With a single territory there'd be room for the dithers/targets (whichever term ya wanna use) to stay out of trouble.

Its a keep an eye situation though TBH. If the cichlids are pounding them no matter what then i'd pull them. not fun for a fish to forever live in fear.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

mok3t said:


> You could use some very hardy barbs like tigers


I like tiger barbs, despite the fact they are terrible fin nippers. I have tried to stock them on a number of occasions with young cichlids in the past and haven't had any last more then a few months. The last time was over 10 years ago. I stocked 6 tiger barbs in a 100 gal. (48" x 24" x 21") with tiny 3-4 month old convicts. The barbs were larger then the cons to begin with. Once the cons started breeding at 6-8 months of age, the tiger barbs got killed. I beleive one lasted almost 5 months, and that is the longest a tiger barb has ever lasted in my tanks.

When I first came to this fourum I argued exstensively (maybe excessively  ) about "dithers". So i decied to see for myself again how these little fish fair with breeding cons in small space. I stocked 1 young male con, 1 young female con, 3 serpae tetras, 3 giant danios, 3 zebra danios, 1 paradise fish, 1 CAE , and one pleco ina 15 gal. The cons were a forced pairing and it took over 3 weeks for them to pair up. But once they did none of the so called 'schooling dithers' made it past a few weeks. About 10 con fry grew to a size too large to be easily swallowed by their tankmates and were left in the tank while the con pair was removed . 4 young jewels were added along with 3 sword tails, more danios and a few other small schooling 'dithers' and a blue gourami. The jewels bred in short time, and all the small schooling dithers were killed. I really didn't give them much of a chance with a 15 gal. :lol: but the point is all the fish I suggested ( pardise fish, blue gourami, CAE, and pleco) not only survived a con and jewel spawning, but actually did quite well in this tank! And they were only given one chance each where as the 'schooloing dithers' were given numerous chances by being stocked in numbers. It was a short term set up, less then 6 months and in the end really was a waste of money as i already knew that small 'shooling dithers' have slim chance of making it with aggressive breeding cichlids.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Quote "Your asking the wrong person about small schooling dithers. I certainly don't advocate them with aggressive CA...never have. There is nothing "traditional" nor "appropriate", IMO, of stocking these little defenseless fish in a tank with aggressive CA just so they can get killed and pounded on. I think the idea comes from the SA crowd...people that really didn't have experience with the more aggressive cichlids. What is an apporpriate dither for the keyhole cichlid, is often not likely a suitable tankmate for say, a red devil. "

--I am a big advocate for dithers...but I do agree that you have to choose them wisely. And it takes some planning, as well as appropriate aquascaping. Where most people go wrong is one of the following 3 areas.....space, numbers of dithers, and numbers of cichlids. First of all, the smaller and more mellow the dither is---the higher the number of them you need, there needs to be fewer cichlids (so they aren't running a gauntlet from one territory to the next), and plenty of open water so that they can use their superior speed. In addition, I prefer dithers that stay off the bottom...such as giant danios and Australian Rainbows. If I use a mid/lower water swimmer, it's usually silver dollars or T-barbs/spanner barbs. Tinfoil barbs and Bala sharks work too, but require very large aquariums. Though I have seen Tiger Barbs, BA Tetras, and Columbian Tetras work too, I usually recommend different choices.

And Bernie--traditional thinking is that you can't keep Gouramis or African cichlids with large CA's either...but we both know that isn't true either, since we both do it.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

oldcatfish said:


> space, numbers of dithers, and numbers of cichlids and plenty of open water so that they can use their superior speed.


I agree there are many, many variables. Size of tank as well. And I'd like to add, it's all the better if the dithers are a little older, larger and already established before adding young cichlids. But IMO, most CA cichlids are simply too large, aggressive and powerfull to be put in the same tank with small schooling dithers. You very, very seldom see these types of fishes in tanks with the likes of trimacs, RD/midas, cubans, jags ect. .......even a blue gourami with the likes of these is 'pushing the envelope' though I have actually kept them succssessfully with heavyweights in the past. I'll say it again, small schooling dithers are not a good bet with salvini, JD or breeding cons!

And I totally disagree that they have superior speed. They are more active, have more energy and swim constantly. But if a CA really wants to, they can make the effort and nail them quite easily. All have a dart and can reach high speed in a split second from a motionless point. Some large CA, such as veija, might be too awkwrd and lack agility to hit small points, but definately not due to a lack of speed!!
I agree with a big tank there are lot's of options for large bodied characins. they are sturedier and make better dithers for CA, IMO, but really need a larger tank to be stocked with CA.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Quote "And I totally disagree that they have superior speed. "

---They do have enough speed to avoid the CA's if they are given enough space to keep their distance, and kept in enough numbers not to be singled out. And as far as dithers not being kept with larger CA's such as Salvini, JD's, and Red Devils....I had a picture up on this forum of my 125g with that combination of CA's (plus a Green Texas and a female Green Terror) with Giant Danios. No trouble with my cichlids and danios. 
I have since had an aggression issue in the tank between the CA's....I came home to a dead Sal, a severely beaten JD and a Red Devil and Green Texas fighting severely. I swapped the Texas out of my 125g with a large BB from another tank and added some mbuna. Still no issues with the Danios and the Red Devil or BB. Both of them are over 11 inches, with the BB being a bit larger. I've said this before, and maybe I'm just weird or something....but in all the years of keeping fish, I have had very little if any difficulty mixing CA's with appropriate dithers, or with mbuna for that matter. But I have had some difficulty mixing large CA's with each other for the long term. To me, that is much more difficult and risky to do.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

oldcatfish said:


> Quote "And I totally disagree that they have superior speed. "
> 
> ---They do have enough speed to avoid the CA's if they are given enough space to keep their distance, and kept in enough numbers not to be singled out. And as far as dithers not being kept with larger CA's such as Salvini, JD's, and Red Devils....I had a picture up on this forum of my 125g with that combination of CA's (plus a Green Texas and a female Green Terror) with Giant Danios. No trouble with my cichlids and danios.


Well a lot of different factors/variables and certainly not everyone's tanks are the same conditions. But personally I have never seen them in tanks with large CA, nor have I seen the LONG TERM success on this forum when stocking these fish. Many people strarting out this way on this fourum and I see many people losing them, even to fish like JD, once they start to put some size on. Months, not years.
Of course it is always very possible for CA to be pre-occupied and ignor certain tankmates almost entirely, especially when there attention is focused on other CA. And I agree, sometimes it can be very difficult to house CA together over the long term. Oldcatfish, how long have these giant danios been housed with RD, BB, salvini and texas?

To the OP, I suggest since many people recomend giant danios and claim to have success with them, that you try them out and see for yourself. I also suggest that you stock a paradise fish and a blue gourami as well, and see how they fair. A paradise fish will require some plant (either plastic or real) that comes all the way up to the surface.best to stock these first in the tank and let them get established for some time before purchasing your cons, salvini and/or JD.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

> Oldcatfish, how long have these giant danios been housed with RD, BB, salvini and texas?


In this particular case, it's been a few years...I'm not sure exactly. I got all of the cichlids when they were juveniles at about the size of a dime. And I feed very lightly, so my fish don't grow as fast as they otherwise could. BUT, I have been keeping giant danios with large CA cichlids ever since I started keeping CA's, and they usually die off at about 7 years (the danios)...which is about how long they last for me when kept in a traditional non-cichlid community tank.

I'm certainly not the only one that does it though. As a matter of fact, the first time that I ever saw a Texas cichlid in person, was a girl friend's father when I was a teenager (I'm in my mid-40's now)--her father had a 180 gallon tank with adult cichlids...3 Texas cichlids, a Green Terror, 3 Severums, a Blue Acara, 6 firemouths, and a pair of convicts along with a school of about 20 giant danios. He also grew them up together, and his cichlids were huge. That's what gave me the idea, as it was such an impressive tank with large/small fish. So I modeled my first cichlid community tank after his...but on a smaller scale with less cichlids. I went with 1 Texas, 1 JD, 4 Firemouths and 1 convict with 15 giant danios in a 125g. That worked out well except that the Texas paired of with one of the firemouths, so I traded him in and just kept it as is. And it worked.

But then I tried starting pure CA communities as I aquired more aquariums. My results were much more hit and miss with those, and usually didn't work out so well for the long-term. But most of the time, when I went back to the "dither model" I had better luck. After that I became seriously involved with Malawi cichlids and started breeding them for sale. Out of the 20+ large aquariums (not including small grow out/quarantine tanks) that I kept, only a few housed CA's. After about 15 years of that, I started downsizing...which led me into "mixed" African and CA tanks. And honestly, that worked even better than the "dither" model.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

By the way, here is the old picture link, if I can get it to work. I don't think that there are actual picture of the Danios, but they are currently all in my 125g with the RD, BB, female Green Terror, as well as the pink convict female from the other 75g...my cichlids are a bit larger now.

http://s1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... fish/fish/


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Link didn't work, here's another try....

http://s1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... fish/fish/


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Ok, still can't get it to work. If you search this forum for "oldcatfish pictures" you can view them in the old post.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Here's the link: http://s1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee402/oldcatfish/fish/

Nice pictures but actually none of the pictures actually do show any giant danios though they are listed in the thread for your 125 gal. and one 75 gal. I'll take your word that you have had a lot of success with them as it is ceretainly possible. Of all the smaller schooling dithers they are the larger bodied and I beleive more people have claimed success with giant danios then any of the other small dithers, so to the OP, they are probably worth a try, though i definately think it's worth trying a paradise fish and blue gourami as well. Mbuna (preferably less aggressive ones) are also an option though most people are rather reluctant to try it.

I still think, even if they do well, they are not an especially usefull target fish in comparison to mbuna or gouramis as they will essentially not 'count'. Of course other CA make the most effective target fish.......they work too well in this reagrd :lol: and can even get killed. Though simply by increasing the numbers of fish, commotion and distraction can help prevent a cichlid from focusing too much on certain tankmates.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Partial quote from berni c "I still think, even if they do well, they are not an especially usefull target fish in comparison to mbuna or gouramis as they will essentially not 'count'."

This we definitely do agree on. Mbuna are probably the best tank mates for CA's. I've had luck with gouramis too, but no more than with giant danios or Australian Rainbowfish.


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