# Haps and Demasoni......



## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

I also posted this in the general african discussion but it probably belongs here
:thumb:

Hi everyone

I have a 150 gallon at the moment with quite the mix to say the least. Most of it works but there are a few changes I would like to make. I'm building up a 255 gallon which most of these fish will go into. I will be getting rid of most of my mbuna but would like to keep yellow labs, rusties and Demasoni with my haps/peacocks has anyone had any luck with this kind of setup I really like the demasoni and would like to have say 15 of them with peacocks and things like C moorii, O. Lithobates, Venustus, Milomo, F. rostratus, P. penochilious (spelling?). I also have 1 Tropheous bemba flame and a male Labeotropheus trewavasae (Mpanga) I'm hoping to also keep but none of these have made it into the new tank yet and suggestions are welcome. 
The 255 is a 6ft long and almost 3' tall I will have lots of open areas with a reef type column of holey rock built up to the top of the tank. 
I'm also going to have a school of dither fish.

Thanks to everyone in advance for your help.


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## Sulfurhead (Jul 18, 2005)

I have 12 dems with 5 O.Lithobates in a 55gal. Although, my Lithobates are juvies at 3". Dont know how they would get along after the Haps are full grown, but i'd like to know. Anyone want to chime in?


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## Fish_Dude (Aug 13, 2006)

Don't do that... but you can keep one, maybe 2, in a 150g with Haps and peacocks.

If you keep 15 of them, they'll drive the haps crazy. One is a nice addition.. and I had 2 until my Tyranocrhomis Nigraventa ate one.

If you get a 150g of nice haps and peacock, you won't want 15 demasoni any longer....


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

The fish will be going into a 255 and the haps will have lots of open space away from the demasoni, some of the haps will be quite large. At the moment I have the demasoni (only 3)in a 150 with some haps and they are not causing any problems like some of my other mbuna! The other mbuna won't make it into the new tank.


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## alexandrend (Jun 28, 2008)

IMHO you should not mix P. demasoni with haps due to dietary incompatibilities. Demasonis are strictly herbivorous fish and do not tolerate high levels of animal protein in their food. Haps are generally carnivorous fish and they need high levels of animal protein in their food. So, how are you going to separate what the haps eat from what the demasonis eat?

By mixing them, you are going to provide insufficient levels of animal protein to your hap or excessive levels of animal protein to your demasoni. In both cases you may have serious problems.


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

alexandrend said:


> IMHO you should not mix P. demasoni with haps due to dietary incompatibilities. Demasonis are strictly herbivorous fish and do not tolerate high levels of animal protein in their food. Haps are generally carnivorous fish and they need high levels of animal protein in their food. So, how are you going to separate what the haps eat from what the demasonis eat?
> 
> By mixing them, you are going to provide insufficient levels of animal protein to your hap or excessive levels of animal protein to your demasoni. In both cases you may have serious problems.


Thanks alexandrend

I feed my fish NLS which they claim to be a complete diet for all cichlids from the vegetarians to the meatatarians. Due to the difference in size between the two I should be able to feed them a little differently aswell ie: size of pellets etc...


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## Fish_Dude (Aug 13, 2006)

Diet I don't have a problem with, I feed all my tanks NLS with occational Sprilulina Pellets... That's fine for demasoni and haps.... though some of the big preditors probably could use some more protein than NLS offers.

I have not lost a demasoni in a hap tank when kept as singles.


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

So Fish_Dude are your problems with a group of demasoni being to aggressive with the haps so you only keep the one?????


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

:zz:


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## Dewdrop (Nov 20, 2007)

Yes, I think that is what Fishdude is saying. One, maybe 2, should be fine but a colony of them would be to much for the haps. Even in a HUGE tank.

Good luck & please post pics when you get it done :thumb:


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

Dewdrop said:


> Yes, I think that is what Fishdude is saying. One, maybe 2, should be fine but a colony of them would be to much for the haps. Even in a HUGE tank.
> 
> Good luck & please post pics when you get it done :thumb:


Thanks Dewdrop 
I guess it just seems like it would work because I haven't had any problems (with 5) so far but I had some much worse fish (a tropheus and a red zebra) in my 150 that I just removed. I'm going to watch them very close before I try them in the new tank opcorn:


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## Dewdrop (Nov 20, 2007)

It might not be impossible. Most things aren't, there's always an exception, but for the most part a big colony of dems would probably stress the haps to much. Even if they didn't actually bother the haps, just the fighting dems do amongst themselves would probably stress them. Kinda like babysitting for a bunch of rowdy kids would do me :lol: .


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## alexandrend (Jun 28, 2008)

BenHugs said:


> Thanks alexandrend
> 
> I feed my fish NLS which they claim to be a complete diet for all cichlids from the vegetarians to the meatatarians. Due to the difference in size between the two I should be able to feed them a little differently aswell ie: size of pellets etc...


I really don't know the NLS since it is not available here in Brazil, but I don't understand how can it be adequate both to herbivorous and carnivorous fish at the same time.

How can it provide enough animal protein to carnivorous fish without providing too much animal protein to herbivorous fish ?

Can you use it to feed Tropheus species and Nimbochromis species ?

It seems like someone trying to make a barbecue using soy meat.


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

alexandrend said:


> BenHugs said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks alexandrend
> ...


Good question alexandrend
I'll have to leave this to someone else because I don't know the answer to that one. Many people live by NLS. 
I do agree with you, it seems too good to be true.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

While waiting for the experts to chime in...

Two things have happened in recent years. Scientists have discovered that not all herbivores eat exclusively plant material as much as originally thought. Mbuna scrape algae from rocks but the algae has tiny critters in it. So now many are considered omnivores.

The other new understanding is that a problem with fish foods was cheap fillers (clogged up the intestines) and not so much the higher levels of proteins, even for the Malawi herbivores. Also there is some debate over the type of protein as well, with fatty, mammalian being a no-no and lean, aquatic being preferred.

So NLS has high protein Spirulina for the herbivores, plus the overall protein content is within parameters even for stricter planteaters. And it has no cheap fillers. And it has lean, aquatic protein for carnivores.


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

DJRansome said:


> While waiting for the experts to chime in...
> 
> Two things have happened in recent years. Scientists have discovered that not all herbivores eat exclusively plant material as much as originally thought. Mbuna scrape algae from rocks but the algae has tiny critters in it. So now many are considered omnivores.
> 
> ...


DJRansome you sound like an expert to me :thumb:


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## alexandrend (Jun 28, 2008)

DJRansome said:


> So NLS has high protein Spirulina for the herbivores, plus the overall protein content is within parameters even for stricter planteaters. And it has no cheap fillers. And it has lean, aquatic protein for carnivores.


This is exactly what I don't understand. I know that Spirulina has high levels of protein but it is not the kind of protein needed by carnivore fish.
So, I don't understand how its overall protein content can be with parameters even for stricter planteaters and still be enough protein (from aquatic animal source) for carnivores.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

There is also krill in NLS. You can review various websites to see the ingredients. I feed the NLS to my herbivore/omnivore mbuna tank as well as my carnivore tang tank. I switched to it after reading recommendations from fishkeepers with more success than me on this website for the last two years. So it sounded logical to me, plus it's backed by lots of success.


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## alexandrend (Jun 28, 2008)

I don't doubt it is very good otherwise it would not be so widely adopted.
But I still don't understand how can it be the ultimate solution to feed any kind of fish.

I always read that there are some species, like Tropheus, that should be feed with minimum or zero amounts of animal protein and that there are species, like Nimbochromis, that should be feed with huge amounts of animal protein. So, I don't understand how a single product can be adequate to both groups.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Me either. And I don't have the large, evil predators. But definitely good for the sensitive herbivores like Demasoni and Tropheus.


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

Diet aside I'm not hearing too many negatives with keeping Demasoni with haps and peacocks :-? 
I guess in the worst case my haps get the extra protein from the demasoni :lol:


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Fish_Dude said:


> Don't do that...If you keep 15 of them, they'll drive the haps crazy.


I think you missed it BenHugs, here it is. Why would you want to drive your haps crazy? The ideal set up with haps is peacocks and MAYBE labs but no other mbuna. Fish_Dude is an experienced fishkeeper who tried it and advises no. The rest of us would not even have tried it, LOL!


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

You're right DJRansome I did miss it 

So with the demasoni do they get more biligerant in larger groups??? right now I have 3 with my haps and they don't do anything except chase each other. I do agree that most of my mbuna have to go. I would like to keep my rusty, white socofoli, and my mpanga red (some of these may be a problem aswell?????)
I'm experimenting (actually more like fixing mistakes) in my 150 so the "bad" fish don't get put into my 255. So critique me as much as possible.......... I can handle it :thumb:


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yellow labs in the mix have good odds for success. Rusties maybe. Everything else mbuna in there has high odds of becoming a problem when they are sexually mature. Of course, it's a 150G tank so it's harder to predict.

Remember, survive is different than thrive. But wait and see if you want to. If the mbuna become a problem you can always remove them. I *definitely* would not add more however.


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

Thanks DJRansome

I'm not going to add any other species of mbuna for sure, but it's sure hard to find a hap/peacock (even though they have great colors) that would compete with the colors of a good quality demasoni.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I sense a case of MTS coming on.


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

MTS :-?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Multiple Tank Syndrome. When you want Demasoni but can't put them in your existing tank.


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

ahhhhh MTS I was going to keep my 150 when my 255 is finished but I don't think the wife will let me :? I guess I could put the demasoni in the 45g sump but that's no fun.

DJRansome your fish list about says you have Inkfins how do you think those would go with peacocks and haps??? I'm looking for interesting and exotic fish as my friends have the run of the mill stuff


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I was advised no on mixing the Calvus with peacocks. Not if you want the Calvus to thrive. But I wouldn't call Calvus exotic!

They also take 4-5 years to grow to full size, so you need a lot of patience.

Why don't you just get unusual haps??


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## Fish_Dude (Aug 13, 2006)

I think we have been saying that it is NOT a good idea because the Demasoni activity would upset the color and increase stress on the Haps.

If you do demasoni.. depending on tank size.. MAYBE 2.. I have had luck with 2 demasoni in a 125g all male hap tank. Until the largest dominant male hit full maturity and woudl fitnip anyone and everyone that swam near his territory. Oh, not much actual damage, but his short and quick sneak attacks on the much larger fish did nothing for their stress levels.

What's more, if you did a group, it would really wear on the haps/peacocks and keep them from reaching their best colors.

I think I said this before.. but I might consider.. in an 8'x2' tank.. or maybe a very tall tank, like a 150g... IF there were a lot of rocks/african rootwood in the bottom hald. That would allow the Demasoni to live in the bottom and the haps to thrive in the top.

I say this knowing that this did NOT work in a 180g (6'x2'x25").. so I'm not sure how well it would work in a 6'x18"x28".

I do have a single demasoni in my 180, but he's not full size. I recently had to pull my nice male from the 125g as he was finnipping andyone and everyone in ambushes from the caves... but didn't do this until he he 3".


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

DJRansome said:


> I was advised no on mixing the Calvus with peacocks. Not if you want the Calvus to thrive. But I wouldn't call Calvus exotic!
> 
> They also take 4-5 years to grow to full size, so you need a lot of patience.
> 
> Why don't you just get unusual haps??


DJRansom where I live Calvus are exotic and I hear a nice lookin fish (I haven't even seen one in real life yet) My LFS guy can get them in for me.
As for unusual haps (or other compatable fish) some suggestions would be great :thumb:


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