# illness/epsom salt question



## ninjasteve

Hello everyone... new member here... have two tanks with malawi cichlids... the bigger tank we have is 60 gallon.. only have a big pleco in it... an ice blue mbuna and a huge tilapia i think heterotilapia...he is probably about 10 inches long, no joke, anyhow he is healthy, actually eats algae wafers... doesnt really eat the pellets, which we use omega color ones, the mini ones because our other fish wouldnt touch the bigger ones, not sure what we should feed the big guy?? anyhow, its the ice blue, his name is bob... the past week he has been hiding inside a big rock and not eating, got him to come out when we did a big water change this past weekend, he stayed out but still not interested in food, and he looks bloated... his abdomen is swollen, although he doesnt look to be breathing really heavy either... i dont see any pine coning going on... he has been out and about the last couple days but is now back in the big rock and still not eating.. unless he ate of the bottom.....read about epsom salt, did 4 tablespoons of it,dissolved it in a bowl and then poured in the tank seeing as how we did a 25 gallon WC... but i put the filters back in... changed out 2 of the 4 ... should i have kept them out?? should i do a dip now for him?? for filtration we have emperors i think 400 or 600,.. 2 of them going... i know the water quality has more than likely been bad for a bit, i believe nitrates were higher because i have not been keeping up with water changes... i know im a jerk, sorry... anyhow, so not sure if its bloat and due to parasites?? i dont know if he has pooed either... i know there is poo on the bottom... but i see brown and some whitish... but i also think the pleco poops whitish too... also leery about going with general cure or clout etc.. dont wanna hurt the pleco or the big guy... just trying to figure out the best thing to do, so he doesnt get worse or die..... if i do a bath.. i know its 1 tablespoon per gallon.. and i was going to put an bubbler in there with him.. and read to leave him in for 10 min or 15 tops.. what do you guys think i should do? please and thanks.. i do want to add we lost bobs girlfriend not too long ago and she was really bloated as well and then was gone.. again im sure water quality wasnt too good.. ... thanks guys for any advice ... forgot to add, i did try to soak some of the pellets in epsom water but he didnt eat any that i know of..


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## DJRansome

Welcome to Cichlid-forum and sorry for the circumstances.

Can you isolate the mbuna in a separate tank?

The Epsom salt can help food pass through the digestive system, check the correct dosage for your tank in the Cichlid-forum Library. But if the fish truly has bloat and needs medication I would get metronidazole overnight delivery.

But first I would isolate him (don't change the water parameters in the hospital tank dramatically from the tank he is in...including drastically improving nitrates...that can kill him by itself.

After isolating see if the feces are white or clear versus food colored. And if they are thick or thready. If the feces indicate bloat I would treat with metronidazole.


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## ninjasteve

thanks for the reply... i have a smaller tank but i currently have a fish(jewel cichlid) in it... he has been living in it since he was getting picked on a while ago.. so that has been his home lol... cant i treat the 60 gallon with something like API general cure? or would that put the pleco and the big zebra tilapia at risk??? if he truly has bloat,.. wouldnt he be dead by now?? its been a week probably with this i think.... thanks again


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## DJRansome

I would not use general cure if it is not bloat, so first you have to observe the feces.

If you can't do that then maybe just see what happens with the Epsom salt.

Bloat can be slow...they don't have to eat for a month and it just depends on how fast the pathogens block his vital systems.


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## ninjasteve

so maybe do salt bath and see if he goes poo and observe that and go from there?? because even the metro if its not bloat wouldnt be good either?? also when i put the salt in this past sunday should i not have put filters back in?? can i add more epsom to the big tank or??
thanks


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## ninjasteve

Hello again... so if you or someone can get back to me before this evening, i will figure out what to do with him .... i asked if i should have removed the filters when i put epsom in the big tank or not?? not sure if matters... and if i should just do a salt dip for him tonight or what?? as i havent seen him poo to see what it looks like.. he is still in the big rock hiding... also if i do the dip, just 10 minutes or try and go for the full 15?? and is it ok if i just put him back in his big tank or do i need to acclimate him?? like i said, i will be using the tank water and just adding the epsom to that in a bucket with a bubbler... thanks again  anything else, im all ears! btw, for the big zebra tilapia, is it to keep feeding him algae wafers?? seems to be all he likes lol


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## DJRansome

Never remove filters.

Salt dip might work for something external, but this is internal...no dip.

If you cannot isolate the fish so you can see what the feces look like, then leave him where he is and just try the Epsom salt at right level for the tank in the long term.

General cure has metronidazole along with other things...and either of those might help if he has the clear thready feces, but probably not if he has something completely different.

Nothing wrong with algae wafers for a 10" fish in a 60G is a discussion for another day. What is the scientific name of the tilapia?

When posting questions in a forum, Members may not be able to get back to you as promptly as you like. It would be good if someone else chimes in because maybe they have your exact scenario and can give good advice.


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## fishboy75

I don't think you will find much success unfortunately, because you need to address the underlying condition which is poor water quality. You have admittedly slacked on tank maintenance- not judging you, it happens. But that would be the first step imo and you can treat at the same time. Do smaller, frequent water changes and get yourself test kits for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH. You can get the API Freshwater Master Kit on Amazon for a good price. I would start off with 25% daily water changes with a good water conditioner. Don't know if you'll be able to save this fish but at least you will be improving the water for the tilapia. I'm sure the filters need to be cleaned as well but don't overdo it and clean both at the same time because you will lose too much of your beneficial bacteria. Any sponges or bio media that you have in your filter should be squeezed out and rinsed off in a bucket of tank water so you don't kill the bacteria. Are the bio-wheels still functioning? By that I mean are they still rotating? Good luck!


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## ninjasteve

Thanks for both of you guys... so I did the big water change on sunday&#8230; do another water change tonight then?? add more Epsom again or? because like I said, I put 4 tablespoons of it in there on sunday with around 30 gallon water change... I do have a water test kit at home with the dyes and tubes etc.. its a good one, haven't tested in a while though.. def slacked big time, and it caught up on me ughh.. &#8230;. so ok, game plan for this ice blue again would be?? I would obviously like to try and save him as much as possible... he did take 1 pellet the other day I was informed by my wife.. also you said no dip , but I read all over the dip would help with any swelling , or so its suppose to?? but if its bacterial , then the metro OR even feeding it Epsom soaked food, or the hex shield food.. and if they are not eating then treating it with clout or the metro etc.. sorry, im babbling a lot, but there is so much info out there.... and of course everyone says something different to add to the confusion lol... the scientific name for the Tilapia is Heterotilapia buttikoferi.. and he may be a little bigger than 10 inches... has teeth on him too and will bite if you put your finger in there lol... , fishboy, I just saw what you said, so do 25% water change tonight then?? and do them daily for how long?? the filter was cleaned this past sunday&#8230; the elements were changed out, we did 1 for each side and lightly rinsed the others off... we also have ceramic rings filter media as well in both our emperor filters... so both on each side are filled with them too... and you say water conditioner? we always used the stress coat when we would change water.. prolly stupid thing to do? lol... oh and yes the the bio wheels are functioning... we took a toothpick and cleaned out the crud in the holes and made sure they are spinning... thanks again for everything chiming in to help out! lastly, Fishboy, I believe that is the test kit I have, the API master one... thanks!!


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## ninjasteve

one more thing I would like to add again is that he does NOT have any pine coning going on AND also there are no red marks near his anus or anything &#8230; just throwing that out there.. thanks


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## Deeda

Ninjasteve, what is the expiration date on your API Master test kit? If it is out of date, you won't get correct results. If it is within date, please test your tank water and post the results.


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## ninjasteve

Ok.. I will do look at the expiration date when I get home and then test it all and then post it &#8230; give me a couple of hours  thanks!!


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## fishboy75

I would test the water and see what the results are if the test kits haven't expired yet. If nitrates are over 20 ppm do another water change. Since you already did a large one and the fish seem OK besides what's already happening, I would do a 50% water change. Thats assuming nitrates are high. If your mbuna does have bloat you can treat with a medication that has metronidazole in it, which Clout does. How old is the Clout though? I believe that product has been discontinued. General Cure from API also contains metronidazole and should help. As far as Stress Coat goes, I used that about 25 years ago when it was supposedly the best on the market. But it definitely is not. Prime by Seachem is generally regarded as one of the best water conditioners but there are plenty of good ones. You need to know if your tap water is being treated with chlorine or chloramine. Prime will take care of both so can't go wrong there. The most important thing is maintaining good water quality so the water changes will take care of that.


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## ninjasteve

ok I will test it when I get home and let you guys know the results.. I don't have any metro or clout at all.. im thinking the nearest pet store by me may have the API general cure.. I believe they carry that stuff.. will need to check.. it would be ok to dose the whole tank with the general cure even with the big tilapia and pleco in there?? just making sure  thanks!! talk soon
also, after do another water change, should I add more Epsom to the tank or?? I think I have regular aquarium salt as well.. will need to look.


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## fishboy75

I think you said you don't have another tank to treat him in, correct? The General Cure should not bother any of the fish but Clout would kill the place or at least severely stress it out. I have never used Epsom salts so I can't comment on how much to add but yes, if you are removing water and adding new water you would want to add more Epsom salts. I don't see the Aquarium or any regular salt helping out much in this case so I wouldn't worry about that.


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## ninjasteve

OK thanks for the feedback... so best i could do is use the expired test kit i have.. its expired about 6 months.. it is API master one... readings are High Range PH is 7.4
Ammonia low, looks like 0 or between 0 and .25..... nitrite is 0 and nitrates are...wait for it... yup prolly around 120 ppm or close to 160... and that is even with the big water change i did sunday... looked around and no water conditioner... nothing is open around me right now... is it ok to do the water change tomorrow evening or still do it with the tap water tonight??? he is still in the rock... big guy is fine looking and pleco is fine looking of course... will def add more epsom when i do the change then... also if im going to get conditioner tomorrow after work, should i get the general cure and just run with that tomorrow?? thanks again


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## DJRansome

Better not to use general cure and/or metronidazole if you don't know what is wrong with your fish. The clean water may cure them without other actions. BUT...&#8230;.

Do not do big water changes and do not do them without dechlorinator. Dramatic changes in nitrates, even for the better, can kill your fish.

Do 25% water changes 2X daily...like morning and night. After the first day you can go to 30%, then 3rd day 40% and then 4th day 50%.

Keep doing 50% 2X daily until your nitrates are 10ppm.


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## ninjasteve

ok about the metro... i will just get the conditioner then.. but i can tell to you really dont have time in the morning to do water changes sorry.. i can do them at night.. can that work?? like tomorrow night do 25% change for now and increase per day?? and i forget if you said so or it was fishboy but do replace the water with epsom mixed in or?? thanks again... so confusing getting different inputs and advice lol


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## fishboy75

I did say in my original post to take care of the underlying issue first which is water quality. I advised partial daily water changes of 25% but OP stated he already did a major one. More frequent and gradually increasing the amount of water during each change is definitely the best method. You can definitely wait to treat since you're not definite on what your fish has but General Cure is used by many professional fishkeepers as a preventative medicine during quarantine so i don't think there would be any harm using it. As long as the fish doesn't seem to be getting worse, DJ is correct, improved water quality through water changes might be all it needs. I do disagree about the difference in nitrates harming the fish, though. It would more likely be the difference in general hardness or total dissolved solids that could potentially shock the fish. But thats for a different day. I'm not one to ever advocate for just throwing medicine or salt in the tank and think it will cure everything. 99% of the time there's an underlying reason why a fish gets sick. And hopefully these water changes will take care of it.


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## ninjasteve

thanks really appreciate all the feedback...so then to clarify, i will stop tomorrow and get the conditioner and do a 25% water change tomorrow night... and increase to 30 the next day and then 40 and then 50... how many days should i do these changes? like check the nitrates again after a couple days or?? no general cure for now..?? i know dj says no but fishboy says ok.. just want to be on the same page  ....


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## fishboy75

DJ is correct. Until you actually know if your fish has bloat or something else you're better off just doing water changes. Follow the regimen he outlined.


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## fishboy75

There's a veterinarian named Erik Johnson who posts videos on YouTube and has a couple different websites. He also specializes in koi and pond fish but most of his information applies to tropical aquarium fish as well. Here is a very sarcastic video on treating sick fish.



He has a 20 video series on solving and saving sick fish. I have had a lot of spare time so I watched them all last week. Nothing but solid information. Hopefully this helps you and others with similar issues.


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## ninjasteve

ok will def check them out then... i really cant do water changes in the AM though as stated to DJ... but i will do daily ones of course... when should i test nitrates again? every day or?? thanks


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## fishboy75

Yeah you can check the next day before a water change but if its expired it won't be accurate. I had to throw out some expired ones recently because they were definitely off. Also, make sure you follow the directions to the max. Have to shake the 2nd bottle for at least 30 seconds and the test tube for 1 minute once both bottles have been added.


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## ninjasteve

ok will do... thanks for the all info.. in the meantime if you think of anything else or or anyone wants to chime in, im all ears  ... i def followed the directions to the T with that test.. lol alot involved for that test lol


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## DJRansome

I would still do water changes 2X daily. I used to get up an hour early to do them before leaving for work.

So let's say you get home at 5pm. Do one then and another at midnight before you go to bed.

You can assume with 25% water change the amount decreases by 25%. You can wait until you get a new test kit to test again because you won't be down to 10ppm before that.


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## ninjasteve

DJ.. ok thanks.. I will do my best to do as many as I can... just difficult, I have other animals in the house that need tending to, cat who has lymphoma and takes natural meds, an old dog who gets a lot of different supplements etc.. it is a lot of work to try and do it in the AM as well... hopefully these water changes will be the only thing they need for a cure &#8230; at some point should I get the general cure and use it, lets say that he is still around and bloated looking but I been doing the changes and the nitrates are within range? thanks!


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## DJRansome

You would first diagnose the problem (observe clear and thread feces) and then select your medication.

The only reason we are suggesting clean water and Epsom salts is because you are unable to diagnose.


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## ninjasteve

Ok gotcha.. I will address the water issue then first... and go from there  thanks guys.. I will let you know how it goes as well!


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## ninjasteve

ok did 25% change..and put in the conditioner..... put some more epsom in to replace what water i took out... also bought a nitrate kit only API...should i test the nitrate tomorrow AM maybe? thanks again


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## DJRansome

You can just to check how far off your expired kit was. Otherwise you would expect the nitrate to come down 25% with a 25% change.


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## ninjasteve

i checked it again... i read wrong.. it expired 10/2018...so thats far out for an inaccurate reading right??


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## DJRansome

Each of the types of tests has different expiration periods and may vary on how far off they will be when expired. IDK about nitrate.

Did you test your water with the new kit after the 25% change yesterday?


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## ninjasteve

Ok been running around all day long... sorry for the late reply... just tested it... its a tiny bit better but looks to be 80 ppm .... so will keep doing more changes... should i just say forget it about adding back in more epsom salt or?? what do you think?? thanks!!


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## DJRansome

If the sick fish is eating, then you can stop adding Epsom salt.


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## ninjasteve

no he still is not eating...and still in the big rock...hasnt come out at all unless during the night...he does look at me through the rock though lol will keep adding epsom then


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## ninjasteve

ok so i checked on him in the rock... he is now up towards the top of the hole and it looks as if his one eye is bulged... what should i do?? ughhh


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## ninjasteve

also looks as if his swim bladder could be sort of messed up.. like he is vertical and sort of upside down in the rock


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## DJRansome

Sorry he is getting worse. Any way to check the feces?

Vertical would not be terrible but upside down is not a good sign.


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## ninjasteve

not sure how... i could try and get him out of the rock... and see how he is looks swimming etc... the only other thing i could try and do would go the store and look for a 5 gallon tank to use as qt tank?? or get the jewell cichlid out and put him in the big tank but then im worried putting him in something with high nitrates too... or maybe put him right in with the jewell cichlid and dose that with epsom to see if he will poop and check? suggestions... ugh


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## DJRansome

Since you only have one fish impacted and it may be too late for him (upside down etc.) you need to decide.

If I wanted to save the fish no matter what I would get the tank/filter/heater to keep for a hospital tank for this fish and any future fish that become sick. I would do a 20G Long tank for this.

The Epsom salt is to cure him (maybe help him pass the invading organisms) as opposed to making him poop so you can examine the feces.

Isolating him means you would be able to tell which feces are his (and observe) as opposed to having them mix on the bottom from all the fish in the tank.


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## ninjasteve

we only have access to the 5 gallon right now... can that work?? and just dose it with epsom salt???


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## DJRansome

You may want to consider that this fish may be too far gone to rescue. I would not personally buy a 5G that has maybe a 10% chance of working for him (along with heater and filter) with the knowledge that it would not really work for any other fish in the future. You might buy the 5G and lose him within hours or days of the purchase.


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## ninjasteve

5 ppm nitrates in the little 5 gallon one... will dosing that with epsom risk the jewell if we just left him in there ?


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## DJRansome

Your sick fish is used to 60ppm (approx.) nitrates. It would kill him to move to a tank with 5ppm nitrates.

It appears the Epsom salt is not working for your sick fish. I would leave him where he is at this point.


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## ninjasteve

ok... maybe get a big breeder net then to keep the big guy away from him?? and just keep working on getting the nitrates down etc... salt bath first or no??? thanks


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## DJRansome

Isn't he safe under the rock from the big guy? I imagine he is less stressed there than he would be exposed in a breeder net.

Salt bath will not help his issue which is inside his body. Salt bath might help with a parasite on his skin, but not something in his internal organs.


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## ninjasteve

ok... then should i get the general cure and dose the tank or still no?? just trying to figure out what to do as this point.. i wanna try and give him a shot here thanks


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## ninjasteve

also can i dose the whole tank with 1 tablespoon instead of 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons?? make it a little stronger? thanks


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## ninjasteve

ok well ... we took the big rock out because we dont want him possibly gettng stuck up in there etc... got a breeders net... its all we got because the big guy was going after him ... dosed the tank with 5 tbsps of epsom to replace what was lost... he isnt so much upside down, but he is head down.. trying to upright himself... his anus is really swollen down there like he really has to poop... hopefully with doing more changes and the epsom .. and the nitrates going down it will help...


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## DJRansome

Maybe you will be able to observe the feces now that he is in the net. I would not use metronidazole (general cure) unless you see the clear and thready feces. It is said more fish are killed by too much/wrong medications than illness.

Honestly I would be surprised (pleasantly) if this particular fish survives.


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## ninjasteve

ok... yea hopefully he will poop and i can observe it...but like i said, he is swollen down there like he really has to go... he is now headstanding... better than being upside down or?? still no pine coning though... and he had a little bit of red streaks on one side but i think he may have got hurt a little when he was inside the rock.. maybe from rubbing etc..


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## ninjasteve

i take that back.. he is pineconed a little bit... perhaps because of being so bloated? or do you think he has dropsy now or?


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## DJRansome

Injuries don't make red streaks IME...they usually just appear as split or missing portions of the fins (colorless) or white spots where scales are missing.

Red streaks can be blood poisoning. He may be living through his last couple of days.


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## ninjasteve

ugh ok... there arent many of them on that side.. just a couple... i will just let be it what it is.. keep doing the WC and thats it.. hope for a miracle.. ugh thanks for evrrything


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## ninjasteve

question... i was kind of reading about antibiotic baths?? something i could try?? not sure what it entails.... i know you said without knowing for sure what he has,would be pointless but then again if he will die anyhow, what do i have to lose?? and why would they not poop at all with bloat?? just seems like he isnt pooing or anything.. or maybe he hasnt in so long... thanks again


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## ninjasteve

one more thing.. i am seeing products out there to help remove nitrates?? algone..safe... your thoughts? not that i dont wanna do WCs anymore.. but maybe i can get more help with this as well ..


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## DJRansome

If he is not passing anything at all (which is hard to confirm unless he is isolated) it means his digestive system has completely shut down.

Antibiotic baths would be for a bacterial infection on the skin...no signs of that right?

I am not aware of any chemical that is safe and effective to remove nitrates, which is why we all do water changes. Reviews on Algone seem mixed.  Remember dramatic changes in nitrates can harm the fish else you could just change 75% of the water.


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## ninjasteve

well i havent see anything being passed yet and his anus is really swelled... still has a lot of spunk though... he is trying to upright himself ... i wish there is a way i could help him poop.. like can i squeeze his butt?? just kidding.. still saying a prayer for him.. do you think with being at the top in the breeder net, more oxygen etc could be better for him? sorry,. maybe im asking dumb questions...


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## fishboy75

Popeye and raised scales sound like a bacterial infection.. I'm sure this fish is dealing with multiple problems. If you can't quarantine the fish by itself to try and treat and its getting worse, euthanization may be the only solution if it looks that bad. Better than watching the fish slowly die. If he hasn't eaten he's not going to pass anything. Can you post a picture of the fish?


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## ninjasteve

hey guys... just saw this ... update... he passed today .... when i got up this morning, he was still breathing but was slow... was still upside down of course....and then my wife called and said he passed.. he is in the freezer right now...but i looked at him and he had blood near his anus..so im sure bacterial huh?? next time if i see something like that, i will take better action right away....still working on getting the nitrates down,.. ughh...just took the test again, pretty much the same maybe 80 or just under ppm.. and i did around 50% last night... suggestions?? bigger one?? also we have 4 cichlids right now in another tank.. i wanna say 45 gallon...and we want to transfer them into this 60 gallon one with the big guy and pleco.... dj you said putting a fish who is used to high trates into another tank where they are near perfect will kill them?? how would we do transfer if that is the case?? in other words, if i get the big tanks trates really near perfect but they are higher in the smaller one, just acclimate them like normalor?

thanks alot!


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## DJRansome

Sorry for your loss.

Next time have a tank where you can isolate the fish (even the 10" fish) with a filter and heater. Maybe consider keeping the 45G for a hospital tank instead of filling it with fish.

Keep nitrates between 10ppm and 20ppm at all times...10ppm after a water change and when the nitrates get to 20ppm it is time to change 50%.

Observe every fish eat every day. The 2nd day a fish stops eating, observe feces or if you can't where he is, move him to the hospital tank so you can. It should take 24 hours to see the feces.

I imagine this was internal parasites and not bacterial initially. Whatever the disease, If you diagnose early enough and start treating with the appropriate medication early enough, he can recover.

What are the dimensions of the 2 tanks? What mbuna do you have? I would consider putting the 10" fish in the smaller tank alone and the rest in the 60G assuming it is a 48x12 rectangle and they are compatible.

Before moving any fish the 2 tanks need to have almost the same nitrates, pH, temp and all other parameters. Including the same level of epsom salts. Transfer fish from one tank to the other when the nitrates match, then keep working on both tanks to get nitrates down to 10ppm.


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## Deeda

Ninjasteve, what results for nitrate do you get when you test your tap water?


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## ninjasteve

Sorry for not replying... been trying to get the trates down in both tanks...deeda never tested my tap water for nitrates?? i should?? dj, really dont want to put the big guy in the 45 gallon tank...that would be like pulling someone out of their mansion and sticking them in a cracker jack house lol... we plan on putting them all together soon and making more room in the house...if i were to get a hospital tank it would be a 20 gallon maybe....as far as the other 4 fish i have..2 auratus, a female and a male...a couple of electric blues i believe...do any of you believe in putting salt in with any water changes...whether its epsom or aquarium salt?? thanks again for everything!!


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## DJRansome

Test your tap water for KH and GH. If GH is low you might want to add Epsom salts with every water change, but only to get the GH up if you find that it is necessary.

NaCl ( "regular" aquarium salt) is for treating ich. Otherwise I would not add it. 40 years ago aquarists would add it before they knew about cycling without fish, but much has been learned about water chemistry since then.

It sounds like you need a 72" tank for your cichlids with a 10" fish and auratus in the mix.

Won't the same thing happen again when you put more African cichlids in the 60G tank?


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## Deeda

Actually I recommend testing your tap water for all the same things you test your tank water for, at least to get a base line. Also depending on where your water comes from, seasonal testing may be advised.


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## ninjasteve

Ok on the Nacl... wont put any in...and ok i will test the tap water and see what happens... and what do you mean by same thing happening? no it wouldnt because i will keep up with the water changes this time etc.... we have had the big guy in the 60 gallon for a while now.. prolly a couple years or more, some one gave us him... how many gallon tank then being 72 inches? thanks... btw i live in a village.. upstate ny... not sure but i believe our water comes from a nearby reservoir... just on the outskirts from my village


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## DJRansome

The other fish in your 60G did not become ill. This is not likely because of the nitrates alone. The tilapia was going after him at the end, maybe the mbuna was being harassed all along and you were not able to observe it earlier.

Putting mbuna in the same tank with the same tank mates could be asking for a repeat of your experience.

A 72" tank would be 125 gallons or more depending on the dimensions.


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## ninjasteve

ok gotcha...but i will say this...bob the one who just died, would actually square off with the big guy...was kind of funny... although once the big guy really reacted, he would be like oh **** and back down...for quite some time they were ok with one another.. wondering if its possible that once it got to where it was the just the two of them, maybe the big guy was harrassing him?? and that caused bloat or parasites of some sort because of the stress and high nitrates?? what do you think??? oh and there is no way i can get 125 gal.. def dont have room for it...we have the 60 gallon up against the wall and it fits between the window and the door coming in the house.. with about a foot the side by the door and less by the window... so im not so sure we would have the room for something as big as that...


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## DJRansome

IME stress from harassment is the reason most of my fish get sick. Good stocking prevents a lot of problems.


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