# New tank - help



## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Hi everybody, 
in the near future I am planning to build my first cichlid aquarium (but I had some community tanks before). Neverthelles, I fall in love with the Malawi cichlids. However, I only have a 120 l tank (with 80 cm in length). I wonder if there is any possibility to put in there some Mbunas? I am aware of that it is a rather small tank, but hoping to get some advice from you, which species may still fit in the tank.
As I see the problem, there is not many species to choose from - for me, only L. caeruleus is an option. I am thinking of building a biotope tank, with only one male and few females (4-5). Neverthelles, I found out from one of the aquarists that it would still be better to put only 3 specimens of. L. caer. in the tank (1 male, 2 females), and 3 specimens of another species of Mbuna (e.g. P. demasoni; 1 M, 2 F), in order to minimize the agression. I would be gateful for your comments on the topic.
Do you maybe have some other advice (e.g. change in the species list, is it better to have one/two species, or this is a mad idea to have Mbunas in so small tank?, etc.). For the alternatives in the species list for so small tank, I did't find substitutes among Malawi species. Any clues?

Of course, I would try to decorate the tank wisely, in oder to give the fish both, space and hiding places as much as possible (i know, I will have to compromise). For the species requirements (pH, water hardness,...) I found this forum a right place to find the answers.

Thank you for your answers :thumb:

Polz


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Anybody? Please...


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Hey Polz.. I dont think anyone's ignoring you; you just posted at midnight eastern US time... and then again at 7AM... that's probably the slowest time here. 

I'd have to convert your metric to english to get an idea of size tank. 
Demasoni, 1 or 12+ ; there's really no compromise there.
L Caer (yellow lab); you'll want 4-5 (1:4 at best, but less of a concern since they're peaceful)

I'm guessing if you think it's small, then 2 species would be it.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

80cm = 31 inches
120 liters = 32 gallons

Polz, your tank size will limit you and honestly Mbuna are probably not the best option for this tank size. That being said, there are a few dwarf (smaller) species that might work out for you.

Option 1:
Quad (1m 3f) of yellow labs

Option 2:
A group of 1m 4f Pseudotropheus Saulosi

Option 3:
1m 4f Cynotilapia Afra (Cobue)

Option 4 (more risky- might work, might not):
A trio of yellow labs and
A trio of Aulonacara Baenschi (sunshine peacock) or other small peaceful peacock

I wouldn't recommend Demasoni for this tank size - especially if you don't have a hospital tank ready to transfer over fish which are being picked on.

I think the Ps. Saulosi tank (option 2) offers a nice-looking setup that should have a pretty high rate of success.
Good luck!


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Thank you both for your useful comments. And I am sorry no to be patient. I should know about the time difference (nevertheless America is a large continent, which - I suppose - never sleep ;-))
Glaneon, thanks, yes I was thinking of maximum two species and no more, and Kanorin, I like some of your options (especially the sfe ones), and I will probably pick one of those. I also think the P. saulosi is the best idea, but I was not so sure about the number. Welll, now I have this information, and I will let you know how good this will be.

IFoer now, I have another question regarding the P. saulosi - is this species agressive towards its conspecifics, or should everything be OK when I do not exceed the number of fish and keep the water quality. What would you recommend, how how much water should I replace, and how often should I do this?

Please correct me if I am wrong when planning the following:
-non-sharp dark (maybe brownish) sand, granulation cca. 3 mm (I don't know how to tell tzhis in inches),
-lots of rocks (from the local river; here in Slovenia the water has high pH and it is hard)
-Valisneria spiralis as the only plant (although the fish might harm it a bit), maybe some algal growth on the stones (how to keep them under control?)
-filtration: 400 l/h
-temperature: 24 C (a bit low, it should rather be about 25 C, I think) but I think the higher the temperature, the higher risk for disease development (not sure - comments?)

What about the chemicals?

and

What kind of food for P. saulosi? does it need also alive food?

Thanks again and all the best with your fish :fish:


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

And Glaneon, You think one demasoni would be OK together with a group of yellow labs? Male or female (or not important?) cause if ther's is a small possibility for demasoni to feel godd in a samll group, I rather don't have it at all.
Thanks.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

I've heard 1 demasoni is fine.

I tried to have 2, 1 died... added 1, - the other died... then later the last one died off. it was 1 of 7 fish (3 red zebra, 2 yellow lab, 1 ice blue) when it died. It just never competed for food. Now others have said that it was probably sick when I got it - as Demasoni are not shy about competing for anything.

IMO 1 should be fine. I would wait for a 2nd opinion of course.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

And all those deaths (for which I am sorry) were only according to their agressive behaviour, never to disease or bad water quality? (just curious)


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

And another thing, so it is wise to put all the fishes that will be in a tank since then, together, and not adding them one by one?


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Water quality was great from the start (of adding fish), no ammonia, nitrites, small bit of nitrate as usual. The other fish were fine.. never really nipped at the demasoni. No damage... just... didn't eat.

They were only about 1.5" long at best. When I started looking at cichlids, I really wanted to keep demasoni so I was kinda bummed.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

polÃ&#8230;Â¾ said:


> And another thing, so it is wise to put all the fishes that will be in a tank since then, together, and not adding them one by one?


If you turn the lights out and re-arrange the rocks/scenery - adding them one by one doesn't seem to cause any problems.

(I've been keeping fish/turtles over a year, but cichlids about 3 months - so my experience/knowledge is mostly from absorbing what these guys teach me)


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

If you are interested in breeding your fish and maybe raising the fry, don't keep a single Demasoni as it may breed with your other fish.



> -lots of rocks (from the local river; here in Slovenia the water has high pH and it is hard)
> -Valisneria spiralis as the only plant (although the fish might harm it a bit), maybe some algal growth on the stones (how to keep them under control?)
> -filtration: 400 l/h
> -temperature: 24 C (a bit low, it should rather be about 25 C, I think) but I think the higher the temperature, the higher risk for disease development (not sure - comments?)


Valisneria plants will do well in the water conditions. The only trouble is that mbuna really like to munch on them and uproot them. To combat this issue, you can plant lots of them and anchor them with rocks or plant weights.

Mbuna will enjoy the sand and rocks

Temperature - your statement about high temperature higher risk for disease is mostly false. Some diseases do better in high temperature, some do better at low temperature. Really, the only concern should be at what temperature your *fish* do best at. This is because healthy comfortable fish have strong immune systems. Bacteria, parasites and fungus which infect fish can only do so when a fish's immune system is poor (either from stress or poor water conditions).
You want to keep your water between 78-80 degrees F which is roughly 26-27 degrees C

As long as your tank is cycled, I'd add all the fish at once. For larger tanks some people like to add one species at a time, but yours is so small that it would only be a max of about 6 fish anyway.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Thanks for the comments, especially on the disease section and temperature... It makes a lot of sense.

And for the Valisneria - I'll try to keep them rooted either with help of larger rocks or/and with some other tricks. Anyway, I think this plant is fast growing, so a little damage won't harm it too much (or am I wrong again?) - but how much this litter can affect the water condition? (I probably should be removing all the plant parts all the time) 
Furthermore, are there some other well known Malawi plants available in the stores? (as far as I know, there is not much of plants in the lake, anyway)

Does anybody know how to grow algae on rocks (any trick') and keep them under control?

I also forgot to ask before: Is it good to add some coral sand in a sand mixture?


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

polÃ&#8230;Â¾ said:


> Does anybody know how to grow algae on rocks (any trick') and keep them under control?
> 
> I also forgot to ask before: Is it good to add some coral sand in a sand mixture?


Water + Light + Nitrates (from fish waste) = algae. No tricks needed. If you don't overfeed your fish and you do 50% water changes every week, the algae should stay under control.

If your water is already hard and has a high pH, it's not necessary to add crushed coral to your tank. It won't hurt if you do add crushed coral to your sand (except maybe aesthetically if your mix of sands does not look good). Some people will add a bag of crushed coral into their filter to help buffer their water as another option.

Vallisneria is fast growing provided you have a lot of light. Make sure to get some good lights or have your tank next to a window.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

As I understand, the algae are not good inhabitatnts of (any) tank. I wonder, however, these mbunas (P. saulosi, for example) are algae eaters, aren't they? And, of course, nitrates are not good at all? So, how can one have algae in a tank (i.e. as a food source for fish as well as for decoration), but low level of nitrates with healthy fish? Mission impossible? (or did I get sth completely wrong?)


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Nitrates are not THAT bad. it's ammonia and nitrite that are toxic.
Nitrates, at a high level, for an extended time can stress the fish of course.

yes, a lot of cichlids are algae eaters. as far as I know the common algae does not hurt the fish. I've seen mine peck at it on the fake plants, etc.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

They are algae eaters but don't eat enough to keep the tank clean. It's hard to balance the amount of algae, a little with low nitrates would be ideal. Nitrates are bad for fish which is why we do weekly 50% water changes.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Yeah, I have read a lot about water change, however the amount seem to be variable from source to source (i.e. from approx. 1/4 per forthnight up to 50 % per week, as you suggeted). I believe it is a efficient way to remove all the unwanted chemical components, however I wonder isn't this a huge amount for the tank inhabitants? So when changing water, do you only change it, or also add some additives into water at the time? Does it take to pre-prepare the water (e.g. is there a special procedure, like boiling the water, removing the chloride etc...?)

--
It's always better to ask in advance rather than repairing the damege afterwards ;-)


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

And concerning the algae... I might understand you incorrectly, but I will ask anyway... I was not talking about cianobacteria (often treated as algae), for them I know that they are not desirable (some of them are toxic). Nevertheless, wouldn't it be good to have some "good" algae (as a periphyton), for the phtosyntesis as well as for a food source for Mbunas?


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

polÃ&#8230;Â¾ said:


> Yeah, I have read a lot about water change, however the amount seem to be variable from source to source (i.e. from approx. 1/4 per forthnight up to 50 % per week, as you suggeted). I believe it is a efficient way to remove all the unwanted chemical components, however I wonder isn't this a huge amount for the tank inhabitants? So when changing water, do you only change it, or also add some additives into water at the time? Does it take to pre-prepare the water (e.g. is there a special procedure, like boiling the water, removing the chloride etc...?)


I'm with you. I've read in multiple sources, 50%/month. I guess that depends on your nitrate levels; if we're just saying water to change X%.. it must be for a reason. If that's to keep nitrates under 40ppm, then some math may be required based on each tank's nitrate production levels.

Otherwise it can get quite expensive to maintain hardness/buffer/pH for 50% of your water per week.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Glaneon said:


> polÃ&#8230;Â¾ said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, I have read a lot about water change, however the amount seem to be variable from source to source (i.e. from approx. 1/4 per forthnight up to 50 % per week, as you suggeted). I believe it is a efficient way to remove all the unwanted chemical components, however I wonder isn't this a huge amount for the tank inhabitants? So when changing water, do you only change it, or also add some additives into water at the time? Does it take to pre-prepare the water (e.g. is there a special procedure, like boiling the water, removing the chloride etc...?)
> ...


I agree. I would say the expences here are not so important here (or they at least should not be), the health of the fish is what does matter the most. Neverthelees, there's always a limit of what can one afford. And it doesn't cost me ask those questions, just to be prepared as much as possible when I'll go and buy fish.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

> Otherwise it can get quite expensive to maintain hardness/buffer/pH for 50% of your water per week.


There are cheap ways to alter pH and hardness. In fact, I believe there is a "Do it yourself Rift Lake buffer" recipe in the library of this site. Basically (no pun intended) it's just baking soda and Sodium chloride. You can buy a supply that will last you 2-3 years for less than 15 dollars.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Kanorin, have You used this recipe before? Is it worth to try it? As I am new to the hobby, I am rather sceptical to my skills, and sth might go wrong. Isn't it safer to use the chemicals from the pet store?
Thanks for a tip, anyway.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

The buffer recipe is totally safe. I have used it, although I reduced the amount of baking soda because my water is already around 7.4 out of the tap. I'd trust a buffer recipe on this site more than any buffer mix I buy at the store.
Buffer recipe

As to the nitrate levels - yes it all depends on how much waste your fish are producing. The 50% per week is a guideline that works well for a fully stocked tanked where the fish are fed an amount they can eat within 20-30 seconds once per day.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Thanks for the recipe.
And impressive numbers of the feeding time. I would expect longer time (aprox. few minutes, let's say two or three), so it I'll keep this info in my head in order, not to overfeed the fish.

Although it is not maybe the proper place, I should also mention that I am impressed by the forum. It works perfectly and there's always somebody willing to help. It just make me asking and asking. Great


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

So the Mbunas are, let's say, big fat gluttons (hpope it's the right word) ;-)


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

polÃ&#8230;Â¾ said:


> So the Mbunas are, let's say, big fat gluttons (hpope it's the right word) ;-)


Yup
They will eat and eat if you keep feeding them. This trait is probably because in the wild, there are some periods when food is scarce. So they need to eat extra during the times when food is plentiful.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

I am totally aware of this (e.g. I have lots of experience working with cave animals, they act in the same way). Nevertheless, I don't have the Mbuna experience. So You feed your animals only once a day?


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Hijack: would you recommend feeding growing/young fish twice daily? (what they eat in 20-30 seconds)


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

polÃ&#8230;Â¾ said:


> I am totally aware of this (e.g. I have lots of experience working with cave animals, they act in the same way). Nevertheless, I don't have the Mbuna experience. So You feed your animals only once a day?


Yes. Some people feed twice a day, but half as much each time. Both methods work well.

Glaneon - Yes, young fish can be fed more often. Two or three times per day works well. If you do this, you will need to exchange water more frequently. 50% every 3 days or so.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

I am just curious. Do the mbunas accept the food directly from the hand? Can you train them this way?


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

And the reason for this is...
too much ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate?
bacteria not able to keep up?

What if it can? (No ammonia, nitrites.. ever?)


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

I would say, that is why it is easier to maintain larger tanks. Unfortunately, I don't have the room for one ;-(


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Glaneon said:


> And the reason for this is...
> too much ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate?
> bacteria not able to keep up?
> 
> What if it can? (No ammonia, nitrites.. ever?)


No ammonia... nitrites...nitrates would mean no life, I think. A perfect balance then. But with no fish... I think the fluctuation in levels of those substances are good, in a way - showing thet there is sth going on, showing the life cycle (it is just a matter how one can limit this fluctuations to the limits that the tank can bare) :-?


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Okay, by none, I meant no measurable amount at any given time.

Nitrates, yes, I got that... a lot more in my turtle tank, but that's natural from what I've gathered.

I guess I'm trying to get the root of why so much, or so frequently and why it differs for different tanks.

I may make a new thread, cause I'd really like to explore this more.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

Glaneon said:


> And the reason for this is...
> too much ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate?
> bacteria not able to keep up?
> 
> What if it can? (No ammonia, nitrites.. ever?)


Glaneon, what is the question that you are asking?

The reason why you need to do water exchanges to reduce nitrate levels are because:
A) Prolonged exposure to high nitrate is toxic to fish
B) High nitrate water can allow for bad bacteria to grow and multiply quickly. (e.g. flesh-eating columnaris)

In an established aquarium the nitrifying bacteria should be converting all ammonia and nitrites to nitrate. The levels of ammonia and nitrites will be so tiny that you would need some expensive laboratory equipment to detect it because the bacteria convert it very quickly. The only time when you would get a spike in ammonia or nitrites is if you either greatly increase the amount you feed (or have something decaying in the tank) or kill off some percentage of your nitrifying bacteria.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Right!

That was it.

I would posit that if your nitrates are at 40ppm, and when you do a 20% water change it falls to say, 30ppm. Then, measured again in a week, it is at 40ppm, then we have a Nitrate growth rate of 10ppm/week given a particular tank. Others may generate more (such as turtles), theirs may be closer to 40ppm/week.

So by measuring your nitrates over a period of time, then after a water change (recording how much was changed), you can determine how much water needs to be changed to keep a specific Nitrate level.

Correct?

Obviously if you have other conditions occuring you may need to water change more frequently (I'm not experienced to know what those may be).


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

Glaneon said:


> So by measuring your nitrates over a period of time, then after a water change (recording how much was changed), you can determine how much water needs to be changed to keep a specific Nitrate level.
> 
> Correct?
> 
> Obviously if you have other conditions occuring you may need to water change more frequently.


Sounds correct to me :thumb:

Other nitrogen-cycle affecting conditions include:
replacing or rinsing your filter media
adding or subtracting fish
medicating the tank
changing the water temperature
giving vegetable or other "treats" to your mbuna


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

... how much do the snails affect to the tank balance? Especially if they were quckly reproducing, I would think the balance is changing towards higher levels of ammaonia etc. (although they are also good for removing of some, let's say decaying particles and algae). At the bottom line - is it better to have or not the snails in the tank?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I did not find them to add significantly to the ammonia. But I did find that they clogged my filters and my python, and I don't like the permanent addition of the shells mixed into my substrate. Sifting is a pain!

So...no snails for me unless they are nerites. I find the zebra nerites work with peacocks better than tangs or mbuna. I'm trying the olive nerites next.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

I just have read thet P. saulosi really like the snails as a food source. What do you think?


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Hi guys,
I am back, now finally prepared to start cycling the aquarium. As I said before, I now have a small aquarium (120 l) and only 5 P. saulosi are planned to inhabit the tank. 
two days ago, I have set up the tank. That is what I did and used:
Filter Juvell Bioflow, 400l/h
white sand up to 1,2 mm (from zoo store)
black stones from local river (many of them, as I have read that these fish preffer dark grounds)
plants: Valisneria gigantea (3 plants), Valisneria spiralis (1 plant)
background: stone wallpaper

parameters that i have measured are the following (i.e. on the second dayafter the set up)
-ph 8-8.4
kH: cca. 15 (having troubles with colour scale of the test)
GH: 16-20
no2: 1mg/l
no3: not detected

my plan now is to "feed" the tank with fish food for 5-7 days, i.e. because i would likr bacteria to develop in the filter, that is running 24/7
Do I get it right by thinking that the ammonia (nh3) will go up, then (after first bacteria - nitrosomonas - will appear) this ammonia will become NO2, and then in next step (after Nitrobacter) it will turn to NO3, that it will be used by plants

there are some questions for you.
1. is there something wrong in the procedure that i am planning to do?
2. how do I know how much and how long should i feed the tank with fish food?
3. I know that before the fish go in the tank, the NO2 and NO3 should be at minimum (for NO3 i.e. not detectable). nevertheless, I assume that in practice the values won't be 0 mg/l. what are walues acceptable for both of them?
4. should I change water partially during the cycling? (i.e. once a week for let's say 20-30 %)
5. for how long should I expect that the tank will need to cycle (approximately, of course)
6. what do you think about the parameters that I have already measure? if they are similar at the end of cycling, will they be acceptable for P. saulosi?
7. how often should I measure parameters during the cycling? are there some crucial points that I should be extremely careful?

Thanx in advance.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

polÃ&#8230;Â¾ said:


> 1. is there something wrong in the procedure that i am planning to do??.


Your cycle will take longer than 5-7 days. I would use ammonia instead of fish food because the food would first have to decay to work.


polÃ&#8230;Â¾ said:


> 2. how do I know how much and how long should i feed the tank with fish food??.


Until ammonia and nitrite are zero.


polÃ&#8230;Â¾ said:


> 3. I know that before the fish go in the tank, the NO2 and NO3 should be at minimum (for NO3 i.e. not detectable). nevertheless, I assume that in practice the values won't be 0 mg/l. what are walues acceptable for both of them??.


Ammonia=0. Nitrite=0. Nitrate=10ppm.


polÃ&#8230;Â¾ said:


> 4. should I change water partially during the cycling? (i.e. once a week for let's say 20-30 %)?.


Opinions vary on that, read recent posts in Dr. Tim's forum.


polÃ&#8230;Â¾ said:


> 5. for how long should I expect that the tank will need to cycle (approximately, of course)?.


Four to six weeks.


polÃ&#8230;Â¾ said:


> 6. what do you think about the parameters that I have already measure? if they are similar at the end of cycling, will they be acceptable for P. saulosi?.


If your tap water is clean, all tests should read zero. Your pH is ideal for Africans. :thumb: 


polÃ&#8230;Â¾ said:


> 7. how often should I measure parameters during the cycling? are there some crucial points that I should be extremely careful?.


Daily testing is good.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

thanks for kind answers. Of course, i did not mean that the cycling will last for only 5-7 days, I was only planning to feed aquarium for so long. do you think I should feed it throughout the cycling procedure?


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

where can I get ammonia, as a replacement for food particles? if I don't get them, for how long approx. it will take to decay? (I am using vegetable flakes)


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## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

there are great reads in the library ,on this site,you may want to start here http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/f ... ycling.php good luck :thumb:


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

well yes I am going through them, again and again... the only problem is that I am at point that I now think that I have an idea how should everything work in theory, but when one comes to the practice... well I am glad taht you guys are here


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would feed the tank throughout the cycle. The final test is to add X amount of ammonia and have it gone (ammonia=0) within 24 hours.

As mentioned, there are great articles with the details you seek in both the Library (Fishless Cycle in Chemistry section) and Dr. Tim's forum on Cichlid-forum.

You can get ammonia in the grocery store in the US, it is sold as a cleaner. Be sure to get ammonia without scents or soap additives however.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

thanks for the opinion. i will feed the tank throughout the process. Nevertheless, I do not intend to add ammonia, as I am now at day 6 of the cyling procedure already. 
I am also taking the advice and measure the parameters daily. Until now, nothing drastic has happened. I probably should still wait for a week to ten days or so, in order to develop the NH3-->NO2 bacteria. 
I'll keep the procedure, hoping that there won't be an emergency call  
Nevertheless, I'll keep posting when sth mew happens.
For now, I just can say that I enjoy :thumb:


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Day 6? you got a ways to go. May as wells tart adding ammonia.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

In my tank the readings changed daily. Maybe you are not seeing change because of the lag in waiting for the food to decay and form ammonia?


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Yes the lag is most probably the reason. I just have to wait and measure the parameters. And here in Slovenia it is not so easy to get pure ammonia. Neverthelles, I will take the time needed to make it right.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

For the reason mentioned above I won't add the ammonia. But another question crossed my mind. For now, I am feeding the empty tank with a pinch of vegetable flakes once a day. Is this enough - should I do it twice a day - or too much? Let me remeber you that the tank is small (120 l), in case that's important.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

I also don't have the idea of how long approx. the lag will last. Any idea?


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## taxxara (Dec 3, 2010)

I also found it a bit hard to find ammonia here in Malta. Eventually i found some in a pharmacy. I am pretty sure you can find in slovenia. Its usually sold as a cleaning product.
To make sure its a pure ammonia solution (without additives), shake the bottle and see if there is any foaming. If there is, leave it on the shelf. If there is NO foaming, thats the stuff you want.
Also its never found as 100% ammonia! It is found as an ammonia solution at a concentration between 5-15%. Possibly even more concentrated.

There is a couple of reasons why its better to use ammonia:
1. Its probably cheaper. I bought a 500ml bottle for just 3Euros and from an expensive pharmacy!
2. It is much more accurate and much faster. With ammonia you know exactly what you are doing because you can see the changes in the ammonia level instantly.

I hope this helps..

Edit: I see that you are in day 6 but that is not a problem. Change the water if you already have some ammonia in the water. Then just follow the method 2 found of this article:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/fishless_cycling.php


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## The Novice (Jan 27, 2011)

The tank would easily hold a trio of Iodotropheus sprengerae, the rusty, or lavender, cichlid.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Hi again, and thanks for the comments; my tank is cycling now, and in the mean time, I would like to show a pic of the tank setup. I'll be glad to hear some comments from you especially if some major changes are needed for the well being of my saulosis that I will get in a month, hopefully.

well, is there anybody willing to tell me how to upload the photo? there is something i don't know


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

and another thing for specialists, is there any morphological cahracter how to distinguish between the baby males and females of saulosi? I have read that it is practically impossible when they are young. the thing is that i will get babies but would like to have just one male. To be honest I dont know exactely how large these babies will be, but is it possible - if not be able to recognize the male (or female) with accuracy - at least to suspect the sex? if not i will have to rfind an aquarist who would like to take my males except one when the fish will be grown up.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

I use http://imgur.com/ to upload photos. Copy and paste the 'Message Board' link here in your reply like this (without 'Code'):


```
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/71c9a.png[/IMG]
```
You'll likely have to wait until the Saulosi begin changing color to sex them at which point you can trade or sell the additional males.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

I am trying it this way, it should work now :thumb:

http://i.imgur.com/PilC6.jpg


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Hi,

there was one plant that i have planted when I made the stup of the tank (less than two weeks ago) in really bad condition. Hence, removed it yesterday and planted another one instead. While doing this, I had to dig into the sand a bit, and noticed that the water became muddy. It is not something that I wouldn't excpect, but the mud was much heavier than the last time when I did the setup (like there is something rotting in the sand, maybe, although - to me - it does not seem logical to be anoxic). Is this just a step in the cycling procedure and you epect it to dissapear, or it may be something else? For the record, I have taken the measurements afterwards, but nothing drastic showed (ph 8, kh 10, gH 15, NO3 25, NO2 0). 
I'd like to hear your opinion(s) on this.


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## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

what type of sand did you use?it should not clump together,its not a cycling thing


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## The Novice (Jan 27, 2011)

When all else fails, an old fashioned siphon vaccuum will pull out the "mud". You can pinch the siphon hose to avoid pulling up the sand.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

I'd guess that most of what you unearthed was decaying plant matter. Vacuum it up.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

thanks for your advice.
@newforestrob: the granulation of sand is up to 1.2 mm, so it is tiny one... (please see the posts above)
@the novice/kanorin: yes I was thinking of using a siphon vacuum, but before I do that - do you think this will affect the cycling procedure? (maybe by prolonging it?)


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

> @the novice/kanorin: yes I was thinking of using a siphon vacuum, but before I do that - do you think this will affect the cycling procedure? (maybe by prolonging it?)


Possibly a little bit. I'd just stir it up then. Right before you add fish give the tank a good vacuum.
What's your ammonia reading? It looks like you are getting nitrates (NO3) without nitrite (NO2), so your tank might be almost ready.


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## The Novice (Jan 27, 2011)

No knowing what it is, best guess is: remove it. It almost has to be organic material which will decay be feeding bacteria and fungus. Removing the guck will not affect the biological filtrate.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

I did remove the "tning" by giving it a little vacum. Thanks
Well, I don't think that the tank is already OK, asonly 14 days has been cycling until now. And another thing, yesterday was the day that I have noticed Nitrites for the first time, so I think that only now Nitrosomonas has evolved and stsrting to oxidize ammonia into nitrites. Unfortunately, I do not have measurements of amonia. Now I have NO2 = between 1 and 5 mg/l, NO3 = cca 25 mg/l, and other parameters stayed the same (ph around 8, KH around 10, Gh around 15).

I think that I just have to wait a little bit, and the nitrites will go down. Do you think I am right? (should I feed the tank as I did all the time? I dont think it was too much as no flakes can be found on the tank's floor, but still I cannot say for certain)

But another thing that a have noticed are brown (let's say) flakes, really small ones, all over the stones. Could these be diatoms? If so, are they just not great to look at or they can also harm the tank? will they be eliminated by cichlids afterwards (I am sure not completely, but partially?) Any advice regading these isues are wellcome... (all that I know is that I could have long period of lighthning right now: 12 hours - should I shorten it, or should I even turned the lights off for few days?)
Thanks in advance


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The nitrites should spike up and then start to go down. I would continue to feed the tank. I don't know that I would describe diatoms as flakes but they are brown. They do not harm the tank.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

so they are not diatoms then. It was just an assumption. May they be some other kind of lagae? and by the way, I am not a native english speaker, so flakes may not be the best word to describe it...
Other thing that crossed my mind is that i have introduced something when I planted the new plant of Valisneria the other day...


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The most usual brown thing in a new tank is diatoms. Does it grow on surfaces and wipe off easily?


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

yes, I can wipe them from the surface very easily...


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

I went through different articles, and it seems that these really are diatoms. also, I read they are common in a tank while it is cycling - they should dissapear when the balance of the tank will be acomplished (or maybe in a month or two later), but in some tanks, the "problem" doesn't want to go away so easy. Moreover, it seems to be very common problem in marine tanks...
do you agree that all (or most important) I can do is to change water regularly, wipe them from the surface and give a good vacuum afterwards, hoping also on the help of fishes...maybe these algae will be good food additive for mbunas as they like aufwuchs?
nevertheless, I would not start with changing water immediately, but only when the cycling will be completed and fish will be added...
Is there anything else that I can do? (i.e. except of using chemicals, as would not like to...)


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You don't have to do any of that since the diatoms are not harmful. And it has been my experience that they last several months.

I don't know that they are a nutritious fish supplement, so feel free to wipe them away for appearance sake if you like.

You don't want to vacuum while cycling. IME the diatoms are on surfaces (especially rocks) and not on the substrate anyway.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

I am glad we think the same, appreciate it :thumb: So, I will wait for some weeks to do anything with this issue if necessary...


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

hi, you'll have to forgive my boldness, but I am curious about one thing... now that the tank is cycling, and the nitrates appeared (I have them now for more than a week, and on sunday it will be the 21st day of the cycling) I was thinking is there any other option that they appear except for the sake of bacteria turning nitrites into nitrates?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Nitrates are found in water that is polluted with fertilizer. Is that what you mean?


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

yes, that is what i thought - thanks for the opinion. I guess there are no other sources of nitrites (beyond the others already mentioned before). Hence, if fertilizers are used for the sake of water plants, the same is not good for fish? Or these fertilizers, bought especially for tank plants in a pet store are a safe option? I am asking because i did use one tablet for better growth of valisneria, but it did not crossed my mind this could affect the equlibrium in a tank (to tell the truth, i am not sure that it does, but still...)


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

now i have measuerd the parameters again in my cycling tank (day 20), using a new measuring kit. Here are the results:
ammonia = 0 (i have measured it for the first time since cycling), gH = 15; kH = 10; pH about 8, and NO3 = 25 mg/l, No2 = around 5 mgl/l.
To me, everything except for the NO2 seems acceptable, should I do a partial water change or not? maybe later, just before the fish will be introduced? I expect to get my fish in 10-14 days, so what would you guys do if You were me? 
PS. sorry for two posts in a row, but I guess I am getting excited (and nervous a bit also, for the sake of new coming fish :fish: )


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would not do anything except keep feeding the tank and wait for nitrites = 0.

Nitrates can also be in the tap water from environmental fertilizers.

As long as overall nitrates (fish and plant) are under control...no problems.

Don't forget plants will use nitrates as well so there is usually no problem adding plant fertilizer to a tank.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

I have checked the nitrate level in a tap water, it shows there is no nitrates...
and for the fertilizer, the label doesn't tell anything about nitrates, it seems that the fertilizer only consists of clay balls with insoluble iron and supplemented with vital trace elements: Co, B, Zn, Br, Li, Ni, J, Sn, Ti, Mn. 
And thanks, i will proceed with the routine, hoping that in everything will be OK when the fish arrive.
(that also means that i won't change water at all till, well, I don't know when exactely :-? )

So, when i should start changing the water partially? At the time when I will get the fish, before or later? How long before/later? Thanks.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Before you put fish in the tank you will want to change water so the nitrates are 10ppm and then test daily to ensure they don't go over 20ppm before your next weekly water change.


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## The Novice (Jan 27, 2011)

I agree with DJRansome. Once your nitrite is zero, the tank should be good. Once you have fish in the tank you should not need to fertilize the plants. Your fish will produce the nitrates and phosphates needed by the plants. (More plants will consume the nitrate faster). Can you get floating plants like anacharis (_Egeria densa_)? It is a good nitrate and ammonia consumer.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

thanks for the opinions, to both of you. To be honest, i did not see the mentioned plant in any of pet stores I have been to. But will look after it now; It would be maybe a good option, although I do not believe that it is native to Malawi (i am trying to do the species biotope tank


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## fatcat660 (Nov 29, 2005)

polz
regarding the temprature of your tank I have found that keeping it on the cooler side of the temprature range helps reduce agression. I keep mine one deg F below the recomended range the only negative to this is that the fish will grow slower not an issue for me. :fish:


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## The Novice (Jan 27, 2011)

Anacharis is capable of restructuring riverine and lake environments if it is discarded into the environment. It grows so quickly it can foul power plant intakes, interfere with water systems, replace native species, and so forth. As a result, its import has been banned in many places. It is a useful aquarium plant, but must be handled responsibly, as in, don't turn it loose on your local environment!


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Great, all of your opinions are very cool and interesting to read. So this plant is just one of numerous invasive organisms that can turn out to be agressive towards a new environement when released. In order to contribute to this topic, there are Trachemys scripta being invasive in European ponds and rivers (actually being more agressive than our native species of turtle, Emys orbicularis, which is now endangeered due to several factors, one of them being also turtle from N America). Furthermore, here in Slovenia we have lots of troubles with invasive Fallopia japonica, some North American Asteraceae, and what I found really interesting, even Pistia stratoides from South America, to name just few. For the latter however it is possible to retain only in warm water, but here in Slovenia we have lots of termal springs In one occasion, this plant has overgrown such place in one of our rivers (i.e. near the termal spring), and one endangered fish (don't know really was that a particular species or subspecies) has exinct (or being close to) due to this problem. Fortunately, this plant cannot grow in other places (away from termal springs) as the water temperature is too low in winters here in Slovenia.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Well, it seems it will never end... Now, filamentous algae appeared (at least I hope they are not cianobacteria). theey are not bright green though, more yellowish or brownish, with long filaments... 
I have three questions: 
1. how to be sure they are filamentous alge and not cianobacteria,
2. are they dangerous to the balance in the tank, and
3. how to remove them? (if necessary, though)

I still have diatoms, as descibed in one of mine prevoius posts. Those (presumably) filamentous algae grow everywhere: on rocks, valisneria and glass.

I would like to hear your opinions on this (but -- if this important - please consider that the tank is cycling right now, and is now at the beginning of the fourth week).

Thanks in advance.


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## The Novice (Jan 27, 2011)

Algae growth is a good indicator of nitrogen and phosphate compounds in the water. It is ugly, but an awesome consumer of nitrogen and phosphorous. I recently had a bad outbread in a 55 gallon tank for platy fry. (about 60 days ago). It is now all gone, and the tank chemistry is good.

Steps for removal:

1. Scrape and net as much as possible each day.

2. Unleash a couple of plecostemous on it.

3. Don't overfeed.

4. Get some kind of floating plant to block the light, and take over the nutrient uptake. Hornwort is good. (I avoid java moss, because the algae grows on it, and the two intermingle badly. I ended up tossing all the Java moss in the tank.)

(As long as you keep it out of the filtration system, it's just ugly, and once the cycle is done, it will decline.)


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Thanks,
I can do the 1., but cannot do the others (completely), because: 2. don't want to give fish in a tank before the cycling procedure is over; 3. can feed just a bit, but you guys here suggested me to feed the empty tank each day during the cycling (however I am careful not to overfeed), and 4. I already have fast growing valisneria, but maybe i can shorten the time of lightning (currently 14 hours/day). Is that a good idea, or should I turn the lights off completely for couple of days? (and maybe also cover the tank with a blanket and prevent the sunlight to go through).
And what do you think by your statement "As long as you keep it (the algae, i think) out of the filtration system"? So they should not invade the filtering system? Anyway I did not check (yet), as would not like to "disturb" the "good" bacteria in the filter (but if you think I should look to be sure, then I can do it).


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Definitely reduce the hours of light...10 should be plenty.

And maybe it is time to do a PWC. That algae happens when water quality is bad. I would not vacuum, but removing nitrates by removing water won't hurt your cycle.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

thanks, I did reduce the lightning hours. But sorry, I don't know what PWC stands for? Maybe for some general cleaning ? :-? 
Yes I will do the change of water - how much do you think it's OK - 1/4, 1/2, 3/4?


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## The Novice (Jan 27, 2011)

The algae will grow in the filter over time, but it isn't a real problem. Cutting the light will help, but something to eat it is a big help, and plecos are tough. They can also help cycle the tank.


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## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

PWC--Partial Water Change


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

thanx :thumb:


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

I did the PWC  I decided to do 50 % PWC, as I still don't have fish and it will be so for a week or so... I also have measured the parameters afterwards, and they are all OK, also the nitrites are now not detectable. I hope that it did not harm the filter as it was out of water (but wett all the time) for approx. 10 minutes... I had to do this as the pump stopped after I have done the PWC (while doing the PWC, I had turned the pump off), but it did not want to start afterwards. well, I just removed the pump from the filter box, and as it seemed noting was wrong, so i installed the pump back and turned it on again... this time, it luckily worked... i guess only the rotor stucked for a while but it is ok now... I tried not to be invasive and kept the filter sponges intact as much as possible while investigating the pump...


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## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

You might now tthis already,some HOBs you need to pour water in them before starting them
(That is if they go empty)


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

well yes I though it should be sth like this. Thanks for a suggestion :thumb:


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Regarding to the fish that I will (hopefully) get once during this week :fish: , I would like to ask you how to acclimatise the fish once that I get them home. I know there are many articles about it (i've read some, also on this site), but would be grateful if you want to share some tips with me: for example, once the fish are in a bag and the bag is put in the tank to acclimatize, is it better to pour the fish and the water out from the bag to get them in the tank, or should I use net for catching fish in the bag? How do you know when is the right time to do this? Do you take measuremets of temeperature, or just waist for a period? Should the bag with fish be put in the tank open or closed?
Btw, the parameters of the water looks just fine now, and the unwanted algae almost dissapeared (i have shortened the lightning time down to 8 hours) :thumb:


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## KOKORO (Feb 2, 2010)

Hi Polz I have just been reading your thread and I am very impressed with all the research and care you are taking to ensure you create the right environment for your fish. I am sure that all your patience and hard work will be rewarded when you finally get your fish and they will be very happy and healthy =D>

To answer your question, I always measure the water parameters from the bag, you will want to make sure the ammonia and nitrite levels are not too high from the fish polluting the unfiltered bag water. I float the bag in the tank while I am testing the water so the temp can start to adjust just be careful not to spill dirty water from the bag in your nice clean tank. Also check the ph of the bag water because a drastic change could shock your fish. remove a little bit of water from the bag and replace it with water from your tank. Continue to do this slowly and gradually (I do about a cup every 10 mins) until you've replaced most of the water in the bag with tank water, usually i spend about 45 mins doing this but it depends on how big the bag is and the water parameters. I always use a net to get the fish out of the bag rather than tipping the water from the bag into the tank. You never know what nasties might be in it from the fish store.

Good luck with your fish, can't wait to see pictures :thumb:


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I float the bags for 15 minutes and net the fish into your tank. Open or closed will work, but no bag water in your tank. I do ask the seller about the pH they have been in and also test the bag water for pH. Then I match the pH of my tank to the pH the fish are used to.

I do not mix the water gradually because I have read that any ammonia/nitrite/nitrate in the bag water can actually shoot up even higher than it was if you add tank water with the high pH we have for Africans.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

> I do not mix the water gradually because I have read that any ammonia/nitrite/nitrate in the bag water can actually shoot up even higher than it was if you add tank water with the high pH we have for Africans.


It is the ammonia that becomes more toxic in higher pH, but the ppm level doesn't change.

If you're interested in the chemistry, here's a quick version. Water is not just H2O in the tank, there are lots of H+ and OH- free ions floating around as well. At neutral pH, the ratio of H+ to OH- is even. When pH is les than 7, there are more H+, and when pH is greater than 7, there are more OH-.

Ammonia is not just ammonia either. There are 2 forms, ammonia (NH3) and ammonium (NH4+). The ammonium form is not (as) toxic. Stuff like prime that "binds" ammonia to detoxify it binds it in the ammonium form until it is processed by the biological filter.

So, in low pH water, there are lots of excess H+ ions floating around in the water, and some of them join up with the ammonia NH3 to form ammonium NH4+, and is not as toxic. If you then raise the pH, you are effectively adding in a bunch of OH- ions. The H+'s that combined with NH3 to form NH4+ abandon the NH3 in favor of forming a more stable H2O molecule with the extra OH-, so the ammonia that was bound as NH4+ reverts back to the toxic NH3 when the pH is raised.

So there you have it. Thats why you should be careful drip accimating new fish. If there is ammonia in the bag, and you're trying to raise the pH, you could subject the fish to high concentrations of the toxic form of ammonia.

I usually just dump the bag of fish into a bucket, and then move the fish by hand into the tank - easier than netting IMO. If you NEED to acclimate to a different pH, you should do as DJR mentioned and match the tank pH to the bag and then slowly bring up the pH in the tank. OR, prepare a small sample of water who's pH and temp matches the bag (like in a bucket) that you know is ammonia free, and then drip acclimate until the bucket matches the tank.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Thank You all for your useful comments, and moreover for being so understanding for my numerous questions - that's simply because I would like to understand as much as possible. I really want everything to be OK before I get the fish  I know there are so many possibilities to go wrong although so much care is taken to prevent these fiascoes. But any way I am really optimistic, enthusiastic, and also excited. The guy from the shop just ordered a flock of saulosis for me yesterday  , and they should be there in few days. Nevertheless, I have spoken to him and asked him to keep them in a shop aquarium for a week to see if everything is going to be all right with the fish. Only then I will pick the ones that I think that are most beautiful and strong out of the flock. Nevertheless, I can just hope to be lucky and pick 4:1 female-male ratio (IT WILL BE LIKE A LOTTERY :roll: ), although I know it will be almost impossible as the fish are young. Have not seen them until now, but been told that they are 4 cm long (don't know how much that is in inches, but a full length of grown ups is 8-9 cm). 
Then I'll be glad to share some pics with you as well as report on how well everything went...

(Just) one more question: should I start with a regular PWC (let's say 1/3 per week) now or should I wait for the fish first?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Your regular PWC should be 50% weekly and then see how much it increases each week to see if you need more than 50%.

The way we test a cycle is add ammonia and see if the bacteria consume it within 24 hours and all readings return to "normal" which is ammonia=0, nitrite=0 and nitrate between 10ppm and 20ppm. Since you are not using ammonia, don't know how to test.

Anyway, if your tank is fully cycled and your nitrate is over 20ppm then no problem doing PWC.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Finally, 10 little saulosis came to the zoo shop on Tuesday!!! Yesterday I spent half an hour looking at them, trying to observe their behavoiur and health. It has already been agreed that I'll pick 5 or 6 from the flock tomorrow (But I will have the privilege to choose from the flock even before the rest of saulosis will be available for other customers). :thumb: When the fish will grow up I will trade or sell the specimens that I won't need (or better said that when they will owergrown the tank size :wink: ). Nevertheless, the fish will stay in quarantine until tommorow.
Luckily, they all look healthy and showing their temperament already. 
They are still all yellow approx. 4 cm in length (i.e half of grown up length, approx. 1.6 inches), but I have noticed some differences among them. Two of them have black (well let's say dark) patches on the belly and fins, so I wonder might these two be young transforming males? One of those two also seems to be most dominant of all fish in the tank. (they are together with two other cichlid species right now). I have also noticed that they already pick the sand and move it around, so I think this is another indication they are healthy as this should be their natural behaviour.
Do you think that at this size they are just about to transform to adults, and these patches can be helpful in identifying sexes (I know it is not for sure, but may this character be a guideline?)
Is it good to pick the dominant animal or should I avoid it (although I already like this little dominant creature?)  (btw, in general, how likely it is that the dominant fish is a female?)

I also noticed one of the fish rubbing itself against a stone, but looking very "alive" and healthy. Is this also a part of their natural behaviour?

It seems that the conditions in both, shop tank and my own tank - are the same; the only difference is a slight temperature difference - 80 F in zoo shop and a little more than 77 in my tank. Is this difference a huge one? (anyway, the fish will be in a plastic bag for approx. 15 minutes on the way from store to home, and I think in this time also in a bag a temperature will drop a little)

Any comments or additional suggestions?

Thanks in advance.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If the dominant one also has patches, I'd choose that one for the male and then the rest I'd choose the smallest, most yellow ones.

I would not worry about it much...I usually let the breeder net fish for me and don't select individual fish at all from the tank.

They might be transforming males, but they also might be freaked-out females, you just don't know at this point.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

yes, that really is uncertain, I agree, but I am also grateful for your opinion. When the fish will be in a new tank, i believe i should leave them alone for a while (ie. not disturb them much and give them time to explore the new home). For how long this should approximately last? Should I turn off the lights for the time of acclimating? 8nevertheless, I'll bring them back home at the morning, so I don't think this will help a lot). 
And another thing - when should I start feeding them? i guess not just shortly afterwards they will be brought home, but I wonder how long should I wait? (i.e. starting with feeding still on the same day, e.g. in the evening, or should I wait over night?) Does it matter at all?

I am going to sleep now, and tommorow as I cnnot wait for the fish awake   
I think the tank is ready and just waits to be a home for the newcomers.
Good night to you all.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Lights off and no food is good for the first 24 hours.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Thanks for the tip. i am reading my last post and realize that (at least) one sentence in it has absolutely no sense  I am quite sure this was due to excitement, and I still don't know what I wanted to say/ask... Well, just few hours left until the moment M, and plesae keep your fingers crossed for my new fish. I am sure they will need it  
I'll keep posting and updating, as i guess from now on, I will have even more and more questions...


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

I am now very proud new owner of six young saulosis  :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: they all seems really healthy, and one of them already has stripes on the body and it is a little bluish on the face. therefore i can imagine it is a male. for the other five, i would say there is at least one more male, but what fascinated me most, is that their colours has been changing during he day. 
when i brought them home, they were all yellow, without patches or stripes. but in just half an hour one male got darker and his stripes became very obvious  it is also the one that took control over the tank, also showing his dominance by shaking his body in front of others, replacing bits of sand... despite his youth.

it was also ineresting to watch how these little creatures were exploring the new tank: at first they were all sticking togeter, exploring just one corner of the tank for the first half an hour after they were released to the tank. but then, they started to explore the other corners, and they aleady had conquired the whole tank during the day.
in addition to all that, i have to say i did not expect the fish to be so hiperactive, although i have read about their activity.

hopefully, i will be able to show you some pics hereafter...


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Some pics hereafter:



http://imgur.com/GpCcv




http://imgur.com/cqQYQ




http://imgur.com/tc7W8




http://imgur.com/xYqOU




http://imgur.com/MYr5H


how many possible males do you think are there in the last two "group pictures"?


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

I'd like to thank you all for your help and useful comments while I was trying to gather info about cichlids, and helping me with stocking advice. I am pretty sure the tank should have a high rate of success (when your instructions will be followed), nevertheless with keeping the need for removing a fish or two when the juvies will grow up.


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## Frenzy (Dec 29, 2007)

Great thread.

Are you ready for another tank now polz? :lol:


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Thanks, Frenzy.
Yeah I would like to have more tanks, but not want to hurry. I am sure this one will be enough for now. Besides, I don't have time for anoter one at the moment :roll:


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

It looks like you have at least 2 males. For example, in the last picture the fish on the right has some light barring and a darkened dorsal fin. Probably a subdominant male, but it's not 100%. Really, it's too early to know exactly what genders you have without venting them. You'll probably have a better idea in a month or two.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

thanks for the opinion. yes, i guess it would be better to wait a bit, nevertheless i was/am still really surprised by the short time in which fish can change its color. the possible subdominant male, for example, has its stripes not during the whole day, it is most colourful in the morning when i turn on the lights, but then - i guess because of the presence of dominant male - its colours blend. if this second possible subdomant male is really a male, i cannot rule out that also some others are males, am I right (although they are all completely yellow)?


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## zoie (Mar 7, 2011)

I read your whole intire thread, it was so good, I was sad to find out I was on the last page.  I have a home daycare and this is what I have been doing for the last 2 hours. I am also doing a 50% wc on my tank that I am turning into a cichlid tank. I am getting the same exact fish!!

I am so excited. I can't wait. I think our tanks are similar in size too.

Congratulations on all your new :fish: They are beautiful. I like how you set up your tank, it looks nice. How are all your fishes doing?


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

tnaks Zoie, for the comments. I did not know that I am so popular  But yes, maybe it's time to write some new updates...
yestaerday i did the PWC, also, that was for the first time with fish in the tank... I decided it was enough for two reasons: i remove only the amount thet did not stop the filetering mashine (you can read about this problem in previous posts), and luckily, because I think I did not need to do more as the nitrates level was about 20 mg/l only. now it is little lower and I will try to maintain the level somewhere below 30 mg/l. Nirites are 0 at all times (well, not detectable would be better said).

The fish are still OK, and the dominant male (the only for which I am sure for its gender) is getting darker and darker. I guess this is good sign and the fish are doing well in the tank.

Today I have noticed first a little more serious fight between the dominant male and one that i suspect is a male too, but they had settled down then, luckily...

I still cannot believe that those fish can change their colors so rapidly, it is a matter of seconds, would say (or is just my imagination?)

Well last but not least, I hope that your fish are OK also, Zoie, and that you have lots of fun with them...or/and will have in the future. I've been going through the forum and read some of your posts, too.

thanks also for the comments on the setup. it for sure is a small tank, that's why i was especially careful in picking the stones, sand and plants. Have to say, these fish are great algae eaters, in few days they ate most of green algae growing on stones and valisneria. now the tank looks even prettier to my eye. But surprisingly, the plant itself is not damaged by fish (yet?) I have been warned it might/should happen. 
I also think that the fish have lots of crevices and that (at least for now) the number of fish is ok, there was only one little fight that i have noticed in a whole week (of course have no time to look the tank all the time).
and what I love the most is that the fish really like the sand, making their own landscape...
wow, long post... I have to finish, otherwise nobody will read it...

Bye to all cichlid lovers!


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## zoie (Mar 7, 2011)

polÃ&#8230;Â¾ said:


> tnaks Zoie, for the comments. I did not know that I am so popular  But yes, maybe it's time to write some new updates...
> yestaerday i did the PWC, also, that was for the first time with fish in the tank... I decided it was enough for two reasons: i remove only the amount thet did not stop the filetering mashine (you can read about this problem in previous posts), and luckily, because I think I did not need to do more as the nitrates level was about 20 mg/l only. now it is little lower and I will try to maintain the level somewhere below 30 mg/l. Nirites are 0 at all times (well, not detectable would be better said).
> 
> The fish are still OK, and the dominant male (the only for which I am sure for its gender) is getting darker and darker. I guess this is good sign and the fish are doing well in the tank.
> ...


I'm so glad they are doing good. You will have to post some pictures.  I am getting so nervous and so excited. I was playing with rocks today to see what I like better. I will post pictures on my ? about the rocks.

I am not going to do live plants. I don't really like the fake ones, but I am giong to put 1 or 2 to add a little color. Some aren't too bad.

Keep updating!!


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Well, from today on, You can look at my tank profile in "Tanks" section. :dancing: A big thank you to Fogelhund for help and I'll be glad to receive some feedback, to know whether I was going in the right direction or should I change something in the future.

All the tips will be appreciated.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Well I have to add some updates in the topic. I wonder how it is possible that there is no algae growth in my tank anymore. As I have already mentioned I had lots of algae during the cycling procedure and then it was all grazed in few days after the tank was inhabited with newcomers. I am glad that the tank is clean, but would really like to have some algae growth on the rocks (not on the glass though). I don't think that somebody has the same problems and guessing you would be all happy not having algae in the tank. On the other hand I think it would be nice to have some, as an addition to the flakes that the fish get daily. Nevertheless, it is also possible that algae are still there but I cannot see them as they are constantly grazed by the fish :-?


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## longislandmbuna (Mar 30, 2011)

if you want to grow a small amount o f rock algae leave the light on for about 5 days and don't change the water during that 5 day period
LIM


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Won't this be harmful for the fish - I mean, their daily routine (day-night) will be changed? Anyway, thanks for the tip.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Lights on 24 hours is not the best for the fish. But a longer light period and higher nutrients will help algae growth. Be careful what you wish for. :thumb:


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

That's true, the same thoughts crossed my minds when I was replying to advice that I got. And yes, I am careful, that is why I am asking so much (incl. all the silly questions). I won't try, I have already decided. :thumb:


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

I have a serious question. It is now a day since I can't find all the fish in my tank, i.e. one is missing. I wonder whether this fish might be hiding (don't know the reason, as I did not notice that sth would be wrong, and the aggresion does not seem to be strong for now) or - it might also be dead??! Hope the latter did not happened, but yesterday I spent a lot of time searching for this fish (also under some stones) but was unsucessful. Of course I did not roll over each stone, but still...
Is it also possible that the fish is already holding - at the age of approx. 4 months? That is why I did not decide to roll each and every stone over, but if you guys think that I should do it for a precaution, I will do it.
I did take the measurements (as I do it every three to four days), and the parameters all seem to be OK, as well as all the other fish. I also do the PWC as soon as the nitrates reach 30 mg/l.
What would you guys do if you were me?
Thanks...


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## zoie (Mar 7, 2011)

polÃ&#8230;Â¾ said:


> I have a serious question. It is now a day since I can't find all the fish in my tank, i.e. one is missing. I wonder whether this fish might be hiding (don't know the reason, as I did not notice that sth would be wrong, and the aggresion does not seem to be strong for now) or - it might also be dead??! Hope the latter did not happened, but yesterday I spent a lot of time searching for this fish (also under some stones) but was unsucessful. Of course I did not roll over each stone, but still...
> Is it also possible that the fish is already holding - at the age of approx. 4 months? That is why I did not decide to roll each and every stone over, but if you guys think that I should do it for a precaution, I will do it.
> I did take the measurements (as I do it every three to four days), and the parameters all seem to be OK, as well as all the other fish. I also do the PWC as soon as the nitrates reach 30 mg/l.
> What would you guys do if you were me?
> Thanks...


I hope you find your fish, gee if she is holding they breed quicker than I though. I should probably look into that because then mine are not too far behind yours!!


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## pack-rat (Aug 2, 2010)

Is there any possibility that your missing fish jumped out? Have you checked the floor behind and around the tank?

One time a young fish got jammed in a narrow space between a rock and the glass and would have died if I had not found it. I would keep searching for the fish until I located it.

If it has died for some reason it is best to remove the corpse as soon as possible.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

@pack-rat: thanks for the suggestion, i thought of it, but it did not jump out. I found the fish yesterday. Unfortunately, it was dead, obviously stucked behind the filter. I would NEVER think it was possible, but obviously it did find the path between the filter and glass (The filter was glued with a silicon to a glass!), and obviously (I guess) it could not find the way out.
Right after I did the PWC, and I will do it again today and s. o. for few days. What worries me most is that I really don't see a solution to this, but hope that no other fish will be curious enough to go in there, at least for a period until they will be too large to stuck in there. To tell the truth, I am little dissapointed as I did everything (so I thought) to prevent such events... but that's life, I guess.
Actually, I have read one article (it was maybe here on this site?) telling that one aquarist had the same problem and one of his fish has stucked between the stones. I did not really believe that it is possible then. Well, now I know...

Another thing - when you found this fish that has stucked and rescued it, did you have some more problems like this afterwards?

Is there anything else I should take special care of (i.e. besides the parameters and preventive PWC?)


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'm having trouble picturing a space behind a filter where a fish could find it's way in and not out. But if it can be done, they will. Best to add a screen.

A healthy fish can swim against filter suction, but if he went in there voluntarily you have to block him out.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

DJRansome said:


> I'm having trouble picturing a space behind a filter where a fish could find it's way in and not out. But if it can be done, they will. Best to add a screen.
> 
> A healthy fish can swim against filter suction, but if he went in there voluntarily you have to block him out.


I found the fish behind the wall of the filter box, i.e. between the wall and the glass, not in the filter. And I cannot imagine that happened either, but that is where I found the fish. Actually it took me a while to find it, and I hardly got it out (had to use pincers). And having a screen would be great as the filter is in the back of the tank, facing the wall - that is why I did not notice this on time, I guess (unfortunately, I don't have money no place for a screen there). I suspect that the sucking power of the filter was not the reason (as the fish was outside the filter box). I still don't have the idea how this fish could have stucked, as I told, the filter box was (it still is) glued to the glass (I glued it on four places at each of two sides of the filter box that are facing the glass, i.e. I followed the instructions in the brochure). I hope it was just a peculiar accident, though...


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## pack-rat (Aug 2, 2010)

polÃ&#8230;Â¾ said:


> Another thing - when you found this fish that has stucked and rescued it, did you have some more problems like this afterwards?
> 
> Is there anything else I should take special care of (i.e. besides the parameters and preventive PWC?)


The fix after my fish got trapped was easy, I simply moved the rock a little. It was a large eroded limestone ("holey rock") that had a mostly flat side. I had this rock on the side with the flat face against the aquarium glass. Of course I assumed that mbuna (rock fish) were accustomed to swimming into tight places between rocks and that they knew how to do it safely. And I did not notice that the placement of this rock created several narrow passageways. One of the passageways was closed off at one end, and the fish swam into it until it was stuck fast. No room to go forward but wedged in too tight to back up. When I moved the rock the fish came out but had several wounds and swam poorly. Luckily though, it recovered after a few days and is fine now.

I think there will always be some risk of a fish getting trapped in the rocks, but I try not to put flat rock faces against the glass anymore. Most of my rocks are round river rocks so they touch at single points. I have not had anything like this happen except the one time (in my 9 months of cichlid keeping).

I'm sorry about your fish. I don't clearly understand your setup, but maybe there is a gap that is larger and if this one place is blocked the fish cannot get behind your filter. I'm sure you have checked though.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Why not stuff a slice of filter sponge in the space? Then a fish could not enter.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

@pack-rat: well the filter box should be set close to the glass (on the glass, actually - so I thought), without the space between the glass and the box. Nevertheless, I assume that the silicone that was used as a glue was tick enough to make thin place behind the filter box. Actually one cannot even see it. At least I am glad that your fish survived, and maybe my bad experience will help to prevent some other accidents like that... 
And I am using both flat and round rocks, but in this case I am sure that no flat stone is placed against the glass as the way you described it.
It is also interesting that those fish are not able to get out from all the spaces that can go in. I would not expect it, although I know that only some animals (the extreme example would be mantis shrimp (not really a shrimp), e.g. Squilla mantis or other species of the genus) are able to enter really narrow crevices, and then turn it out -Squilla for example do the roll over in the crevice to turn in the opposite direction...

@DJRansome: Thanks for advice, that is really a good idea, and I'll try to do it - although the space is so thin that I cannot even see it... (it is maybe invisible only because of the water reflection).

I am really glad that you guys are helping me, and hope that my next updates will be merrier...


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

I ve never been so occupied as I am lately, and from time to time I remember I should add a new post  Well the fish are still OK (the remaining five) and I guess the same problem won't happen again.
Hope you guys are doing great, as well as your fish.
Enjoy the beatiful spring days, here in Slovenia these days are perfect (despite the fact that I am busy :thumb: )


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## zoie (Mar 7, 2011)

Glad to hear the rest of your fish are doing good. They must be getting bigger. Are they showing the gender colors yet? Do you know your male/female ratio? that is one reason I really wanted to do the salousi, it is easy to tell male from female.

I am enjoying my fish though. so far so good and I even have one holding! (my labs were 2+" when I got them).

Enjoy your fish and the weather.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

hi, I cannot tell the male-female ratio for now; actually, more fish were showing a bit of male colors (the stripes on the yellow background, actually) when I got them but now that the dominant male has put everyithing in order it seems that all the rest are afraid of showing their colors. From my experience I think that in the tank males prevail, I guess there is only one or two females, but for now, this is more or less just a guess. I am only sure that at least two males are in the tank (one of them is also a bit bluish on the head), other three fish are of unknown gender (for now). I also wonder how long it will take that the fish will show their adult colors? Does anybody know? (I ve been told that the fish were born in December.)

And Zoie, I hope your fish are doing great also, I have no much time to hang on the forum and check the news


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

They may never show their colors if there are too many males. So...try removing the dominant male and see who colors up. Keep doing that until no one colors up. Then put back 1-3 males depending on the size of your tank. If one is colored up and they are all the same age...they are capable.


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## polÃ…Â¾ (Oct 8, 2010)

Cool advice, thank you :thumb:


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