# I have a large hybrid who must go.....



## LuciousLeftFoot (Jan 27, 2008)

Well....not large but he is the largest fish in my tank. From what I can tell he is a Metriaclima/Pseudo cross with the shape of his head being like a Metriaclima and barring similar to a Pseudo's. I bought him from the Mixed African tank at a big box store locally after I got my tank about a year ago. Now he is wreaking t-total havoc in the tank b/c he is maturing. I am about to change my stocking around soon and I know he must go when I change everything up. Should I cull him or give him to the LFS as a hybrid? I know putting a hybrid into the pool is blasphemy but I don't know what else to do with him. Any thoughts?


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would cull. It really stinks, but I've never figured out an alternative.


----------



## sheeshshe (Apr 11, 2006)

give him away on craiglist or freecycle?


----------



## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

It's these types of threads that I would like to point folks towards when they talk about growing one out for fun or "don't kill hybrid fry".

One day, you still end up with a problem with NO easy answer.

I have killed hybrids, and I even admit to having given some away with the note that they were suspect fish, possibly hybrids, and that is the reason for them being free to friends. Should they ever show odd characteristics I asked that they be destroyed.

The former was unpleasant at the time, the latter is far more unpleasant now since I have no idea if my old friend followed through with the deal after I left Ontario.

I can only hope/ worry...

in hindsight, I would always put down. Longer term, it's less stress.


----------



## LuciousLeftFoot (Jan 27, 2008)

Number6 said:


> It's these types of threads that I would like to point folks towards when they talk about growing one out for fun or "don't kill hybrid fry".
> 
> One day, you still end up with a problem with NO easy answer.
> 
> ...


You know I wish someone would have sent me to one of these type threads when I first got into cichlid keeping.......I bought this fish thinking "he will be fine" not realizing my own demise. Now I have the dilemma with my conscience being an animal lover and not wanting to harm animals. For food is one thing but pets I have no stomach to do it. I am going to try to find him a home but if I can't, he will become plant food.


----------



## plow (Feb 19, 2008)

DJRansome said:


> I would cull. It really stinks, but I've never figured out an alternative.


I reckon ransome is 100% on the money, I have hybrid issues and I know I am only delaying the enevitable. It does stink but must be done imo.

Do it while they are as young as possible.. I see it as part of keeping the rest of the clan happy and healthy, in the long run hybrids will just casue issues and all the other fish will suffer.


----------



## Cich of it all (Mar 29, 2007)

This has always been a dilemma for me too. On one hand, youâ€™ve got the responsibility as a cichlid keeper to do whatâ€™s best for the hobby as a whole. On the other hand, as an animal lover, (which I believe most aquarists are), killing a particular animal just because it is not a pure species seems inhumane. I think this is a difficult thing to deal with for even some of the most advanced cichlid keepers that have been doing this for years.

I look at it like this: When you sign up to be a cichlid keeper, you are taking on the responsibility of doing your part to help keep the existing (pure) species as pure as possible. As long as there are local fish stores there will be hybrids, so as individuals we need to do what we can to counteract the distribution of these hybrids. This means: --Never buy a fish from an LFS if you think there is any chance the fish may be a hybrid, --Try not to keep species in the same tank that are likely to hybridize, --If you do end up with hybrids and you donâ€™t want to keep them for yourself, please, please, please do not give them to anyone. Regarding the latter, if you do, you are doing everyone in the hobby an injustice. Even if you find a home for a particular hybrid fish, whoâ€™s to say that the next person wonâ€™t breed more and/or distribute them? This may seem like an extreme stance to some, especially newcomers to the hobby, but it is essential in keeping the quality of the cichlid keeping hobby high.

With that said, I must say that I am still conflicted on the matter. I mean, we picked this hobby as a source of enjoyment and to have the satisfaction of caring for the animals, not to kill them! It sours the whole experience to net a live fish out of a tank and just kill it, right? Well, as sad as it may be, it is indeed a part of the hobby. I guess I think of it as a lesson learned: Iâ€™ve had to kill a few hybrids, some of which I bought from a LFS, some I let happen in my own tanks, but doing so has made me much more aware and much more careful. Now the object is to prevent the hybrids from happening in the first place. You canâ€™t blame a new hobbyist for buying hybrids when LFSâ€™s have such little regard for this whole concept. It is very unfortunate how many people have to learn this lesson the same way I did. I only wish that fish stores would have the same attitude we have about not distributing hybrids, but alas, they are a business and will do whatever it takes to pay their bills.


----------



## chapman76 (Jun 30, 2004)

This whole dilemma is one reason I always strip females while they're holding if there is ANY question in my mind about who the male might be. Easier to dump a bunch of eggs into a tank than to have to kill the fry.


----------



## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

I dont have the stomach to kill my fish. I have only done it if they were badly injured to the point where recovery would be impossible.
For me the dilemma is the tank bully, which is often a fish that i have had for quite a few years and have grown attatched to. I just try to set up new tanks for them :roll: 
I am running out of space so now i try to make better choices from the start but its always a gamble.
I always think that if i sell to the LFS a nice fish that i have raised for years, that some child will buy it and put it in his 10 Gallon with his goldfish and it will die within days. Just a horrible thought!

M


----------



## danhoy (Feb 10, 2008)

I started this hobby buying existing setup. Most of my buys came with fish many hybreds. My answer has been to dedicate one tank to them. I don't care what type, they all go in this tank. Many don't last long, either agreesion or genetics seems to cause alot of deaths. I at least allow them a fighting chance. I will pull bullys and isolate occasionally normally after a week in a 5 gallon by oneself chills them out. I could no more kill (or cull if it makes you feel better) a hybred than I could drown a batch of hybeds puppies. If you put them in a position for it to happen its your choice not theirs. If you don't wanna deal with hybred maybe you should consider species only tanks. Just my 2 cents worth. Sorry if this seems harsh but I'm entitled to my opinion and since I here the other option regularly, I figured I could vioce mine once.


----------



## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

I've been breeding cichlids now for nearly 30 years. I first started culling fish, whenever any fry I produced were less than ideal. I try and keep high quality fish, and when I sell them, I want people to receive the same quality, that I try and keep for myself. I don't want my reputation sullied, by someone who might have the same standards as me, being disappointed with a fish with poor barring, or less than ideal colours.

As a result, I will cull fry that I find undesirable. I have had fish hybridize, and usually feed these off. It might not be the kindest thing to do for the fish, but it is what I believe a hobbyist should do, for the good of the hobby. For the most part, there are plenty of high quality, pure fish to keep and breed, and accepting less than that harms the general fish in the hobby.


----------



## bac3492 (Jul 25, 2008)

I agree with fogelhund. I believe that you should do whats necessary for the benefit of the hobby. I dont ever want to kill any of my fish. I found some kenyi fry with bad barring. I just made them snacks for the bigger fish. I wasnt about to murder them, just make them part of the food chain. Some of the little ******** survived. I see a 1 come out of the rockwork often. Thats my only problem. What am i going to do with him.


----------



## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

There is a reason why you don't find hybrid cichlids in the wild in lake Malawi even though almost all of them are capable of hybridizing in a fish tank.

I think you should cull. Otherwise you will have to worry about aggression issues to any new fish that you add to the tank and you will have to discard all fry where you did not witness the spawn. You will rest easier at night.


----------



## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

danhoy said:


> My answer has been to dedicate one tank to them. I don't care what type, they all go in this tank. Many don't last long, either agreesion or genetics seems to cause alot of deaths.


This is culling. Culling means removing from the gene pool. This is what you are doing, in every way shape and form... culling does not mean killing, though killing is an option in culling.

As for killing/ not killing: You may not be actively killing the fish; choosing to do so passively only, but that is just a matter of the "how" and not what. You are pro-killing, letting them eat fry spat in that tank, kill each other off as they overpoplate the tank, etc. You are just not very direct with yourself.

So I'll put you down as another vote for culling and even killing. :wink:

I'm sorry to pick on you... but I really just have to in order to show that each and everyone of us may find it very unpalatable, but everyone must either be responsible for their fish, or pass that responsibility off to others... the former gets myrespect (including your style of it), the latter does not. (doubly so when I've been somewhat guilty of it!  )


----------



## redstallion02 (Jan 17, 2008)

I am for culling as well. Although I can not personally "kill" a fish and must do everything possible for me not to know about it.

The ways I have done it is make my girlfriends turtles happy. They get fish for a while. I will admit it makes thier tank look a lot better when there is fish in the tank. The bonus, I never see the dead fish. Just one day they are gone.

The other option that I will have is my dad's fish. He just got a few Hemichromis fasciatus and I am sure if there is anything that the turtles can not catch they will probably be able to take care of them for me.

A dedicated tank to the hybreds is a good idea as well, but there again it may get too large and you still still have the thoughts of lfs. Craigslist is a good idea I guess since you can just say they are hybrids when they ask what kind just say a hybred cichlid, that way when they do a search online and find this forum and make a post saying they purchased it as a hybred cichlid they will learn really fast.


----------



## plow (Feb 19, 2008)

redstallion02 said:


> Craigslist is a good idea I guess since you can just say they are hybrids when they ask what kind just say a hybred cichlid, that way when they do a search online and find this forum and make a post saying they purchased it as a hybred cichlid they will learn really fast.


craiglist i not a good idea at all.

Putting hybrids out on the market is just going to create problems. Not everyone is going to research what they have, or the impact, and some fish may not be able to be distinguished as hybrids.

Make sure you don't sell out hybrids and dont encourage others to do it.


----------



## redstallion02 (Jan 17, 2008)

Since it is impossible to research a hybrid fish because you can not and will not ever know what it will be like if you tell people that is what it is then that is what it is.

I only say this because my first cichlids were hybrids. A. All from craigslist. That is what got me started. That is what made me find this site, and that is what made me want to get new fish and that is why the hybrids of mine all end up in my turtle tank.

All this happened for me in less than a year. Not saying everyone will do this, but most will not end up distributing fry either. You are right most poeple will not research and like I said there is no need to research with a hybrid because you can not do it.

I like the look of fish. They look cool. I am willing to bet everyone on here does. People that are on craigslist looking for fish are trying to save some money because the local fish stores can and will rape you for a "quality" fish that is a hybrid.

This has been discussed I am sure many times on this site. It truely is everyone's own opinion in this matter.


----------



## plow (Feb 19, 2008)

redstallion02 said:


> because you can not and will not ever know what it will be like if you tell people that is what it is then that is what it is.


wooaahh :? :? I got lost about here.

Can you redefine your point?


----------



## LuciousLeftFoot (Jan 27, 2008)

Well guys it is done.......He was culled in a somewhat humane manner. I took him to the LFS I have been going to, which they have a large fish rescue service. He got fed to three elbow to fingertip length Oscars and one catfish. The catfish was the victor in the match b/c he seemed to be able to keep up better than the Oscars. Regardless I am now hybrid and single species free.

Before the hybrid was removed from the tank he killed one last fish.....a 2 inch F1 Maingano. I knew this fish was having issues but after getting stressed by me capturing the two fish I took to the LFS yesterday, this fish was done. I pulled the Maingano out last night to find he must have been slammed against some rock b/c his stomach was ruptured. Open wound and all, so I am now free of any hurt/sick or overly aggressive fish. I will be keeping an eye out for any secondary issues from yesterdays event but I have a feeling things are going to become quite peaceful in my tank. Hopefully.

My stock list as of now: 4 Yellow Labs(2m, 2f), 5 Yellow Tail Acei(2f and the rest are I am not sure), 2 Lab. sp. Mbamba(1m, 1f) and 6 Maingano(1m, 1f positively and the rest are still growing). I will be purchasing some more Mbamba whenever I get some extra loot. I may have some Acei fry coming in the near future though, one of the lady Acei's is still holding after all this mess...

I really appreciate everyones input and words of advice. It wasn't easy letting the hybrid go to the monster fish tank but it sure was entertaining to watch those Oscars. I would have video'd it but I didn't want my girlfriend to see the carnage.


----------



## Cich of it all (Mar 29, 2007)

You did the right thing.

On the other hand, I would be leery of a LFS that accepts fish from customers and feeds their stock with them. How do they know if the "adopted" feeder fish does not carry disease? I would definitely quarantine any fish you buy from them.



Kanorin said:


> There is a reason why you don't find hybrid cichlids in the wild in lake Malawi even though almost all of them are capable of hybridizing in a fish tank.


Just to play the devil's advocate here: How do we know that many or even most of the hundreds of naturally occurring species of Malawi cichlids and not the combination of others? I would venture to guess that many of the species we consider pure are indeed naturally occurring hybrids. :-? 
Just a curiosity.


----------



## Riser179 (Oct 17, 2008)

As a newbie I have been reading this thread with interest. I agree that hybrids have to go. How does one humanely cull a hybrid or very sick fish for that matter?


----------



## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Cich of it all said:


> I would venture to guess that many of the species we consider pure are indeed naturally occurring hybrids.
> Just a curiosity.


Researchers study this and get quite excited when they find species in the wild that are originally from naturally occuring hybridization events. 
Neolamprologous maranguensis is a good example.

They get excited because it is NOT common...

Now, that's not the same thing as hybridization influencing the evolution of a species... that happens as well, but this is a natural and complex event that is not replicated in aquarium settings.


----------



## Cich of it all (Mar 29, 2007)

Riser179 said:


> As a newbie I have been reading this thread with interest. I agree that hybrids have to go. How does one humanely cull a hybrid or very sick fish for that matter?


IMO the most humane ways:
1) this sounds cruel, but it is quick and painless - place the fish in a bag and whack it on a concrete floor.
2) place the fish in a bowl of tank water; place the bowl in your freezer.

I've also heard of people using booze to put them to "sleep", but I'd rather save the liquor for myself to help me forget that I just took a life.


----------



## LuciousLeftFoot (Jan 27, 2008)

Cich of it all said:


> You did the right thing.
> 
> On the other hand, I would be leery of a LFS that accepts fish from customers and feeds their stock with them. How do they know if the "adopted" feeder fish does not carry disease? I would definitely quarantine any fish you buy from them.


I am not buying any fish from them, trust me  I got burned recently by another LFS and I am done with all of them. From now on I have a couple African specific breeders I will only buy from, all of them are advertised on this site.


----------



## LuciousLeftFoot (Jan 27, 2008)

Number6 said:


> Cich of it all said:
> 
> 
> > I would venture to guess that many of the species we consider pure are indeed naturally occurring hybrids.
> ...


I have discussed this with my girl b/c she has been taking Zoology in school this semester. She has been stating what a hot debate the rift lakes being in the scientific world. Wouldn't the slight color variations in some cichlids, say from different parts of the lakes be an example?


----------



## chapman76 (Jun 30, 2004)

LuciousLeftFoot said:


> I have discussed this with my girl b/c she has been taking Zoology in school this semester. She has been stating what a hot debate the rift lakes being in the scientific world. Wouldn't the slight color variations in some cichlids, say from different parts of the lakes be an example?


These are known at least by laymen hobbyists as intraspecies hybrids. If L. caeruleus Lion's Cove and L. caeruleus Kakusa bred, that would be a hybrid, but technically would still be a fish that could be sold IMO, but you wouldn't be able to claim a specific location. Sc. fryeri is another example. While Maleri Island is technically considered to be the Iceburg Fryeri, many other locations have a white blaze so unless you've gotten it from somewhere as a specific location, it would be best to simply call it an Iceburg Fryeri.

I read a study on hybridization of BB Zebras where their locations overlapped and there was some limited proof that some of the new variants did have common genetics with other variants. I'll see if I can find the link to that article online somewhere. It was a bit over my head, but a nice read.


----------



## natalie559 (Dec 6, 2007)

Riser179 said:


> How does one humanely cull a hybrid or very sick fish for that matter?


Clove oil to put the fish to sleep, then freeze it.


----------



## chapman76 (Jun 30, 2004)

natalie559 said:


> Riser179 said:
> 
> 
> > How does one humanely cull a hybrid or very sick fish for that matter?
> ...


That or if you're most hands on, very sharp knife and a steady hand.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

natalie559 said:


> Riser179 said:
> 
> 
> > How does one humanely cull a hybrid or very sick fish for that matter?
> ...


I'm voting with the girls. :thumb:

A few drops of clove oil in a container of water will put them right to sleep, then I slip them into the freezer. (I save cool whip or margarine containers just for this purpose.)

I tried the large predator thing once. I almost broke a leg trying to run into the other room before I saw one get eaten...


----------



## dittobaker (Sep 15, 2008)

natalie559 said:


> Riser179 said:
> 
> 
> > How does one humanely cull a hybrid or very sick fish for that matter?
> ...


IMO, the clove oil isn't necessary. Fish are cold-blooded animals. Placing them in water in the freezer will cause their heart rate to gradually slow down. They will be asleep before they die.

I also use a large ziplock freezer back. This way, you can dispose of the fish, bag, and ice all at once without having to remove from the container. Just make sure to leave some air in the bag before freezing.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I thought the "freezing is painless" theory had recently been disproved? The couple drops of clove oil make it more painless for ME anyway, LOL!


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

DJRansome said:


> I thought the "freezing is painless" theory had recently been disproved? The couple drops of clove oil make it more painless for ME anyway, LOL!


Me, too. :wink:


----------



## chapman76 (Jun 30, 2004)

Freezing is not painless. That's why the clove oil is used first to put them to sleep essentially so their body doesn't feel it near as much.


----------



## emptyhead (Apr 16, 2007)

This is an interesting thread. Especially to read how hard it is for some of you to cull unwanted fish.

I had tuna fish for lunch yesterday.

People all over the world eat fish, including some of the species that we keep as ornamental fish. Of course, some people eat dog, some people eat horse, etc.

Some of us will keep fish in a tank that almost guarantees some deaths because of aggression, fry being eaten, etc. yet feel bad when directly killing a fish and we also feed food to our fish that includes fish meal. This is really a double standard that probably just shows our weakness to deal directly with our animals.

If you have fish that shouldn't breed - then you should cull them - unless you figure out how to neuter/spay your fish.


----------



## Cich of it all (Mar 29, 2007)

emptyhead said:


> This is really a double standard that probably just shows our weakness to deal directly with our animals.


I'd like to think it shows how we value the miracle of life and have a hard time taking it away from something.
I'll sit in front of my tanks with a plate of baked tilapia, just as long as someone else ha to kill it for me. Weakness? Double-standard? Yeah, I guess it pretty much is. Another paradox of the human experience I suppose.


----------



## chapman76 (Jun 30, 2004)

I used to feel bad when I first started culling. Now, it's just an accepted part to me. It's all so artificial no matter how natural we try to make it.

Also, a bit of comfort I take is even factoring the amount of culls and misc. deaths that have happened, my survival rate is higher in my tanks than that cichlid would most likely experience in the wild. My females are safe while holding. The fry are basically hand fed when young. The adults get 1 meal a day without the chance of a predator taking them.


----------

