# Adding Salt to Cichlid Tank



## OleSarge

Is it really necessary to add salt to a new tank at the rate of 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons? I am getting conflicting stories from LFS.


----------



## des

Absolutely not in my opinion.


----------



## GaFishMan1181

I can't speak for every type of fish but with African Cichlids no its not necessary. It does have its uses though for certain illnesses.


----------



## ronv

It depends on your tap water. I have soft water. For me it is necessary to add salt, epson salt and baking soda to a new aquarium. This will create water that is more similar to lake Malawi. I also use crushed limestone for gravel to buffer the water.


----------



## prov356

You don't need to add aquarium salt. Check this for a pretty thorough article on salt uses, and a breakdown of what's real and what's myth.


----------



## Clink51

i use salt on the tanks mostly to deal with nipped fins. it tends to help heal the cuts and for them to grow back quicker


----------



## jd lover

long term use of salt on freshwater can be bad best to only use it when you need to treat somethin


----------



## prov356

Salt has never been proven to aid the healing of fins or act as a cure for any disease that I can think of. How would it?


----------



## jd lover

prov356 said:


> Salt has never been proven to aid the healing of fins or act as a cure for any disease that I can think of. How would it?


i believe it treats ich

salt+high temps


----------



## prov356

jd lover said:


> prov356 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Salt has never been proven to aid the healing of fins or act as a cure for any disease that I can think of. How would it?
> 
> 
> 
> i believe it treats ich
> 
> salt+high temps
Click to expand...

That's not disease. Yes, it can deal with parasites if using enough of it.


----------



## jd lover

prov356 said:


> jd lover said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> prov356 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Salt has never been proven to aid the healing of fins or act as a cure for any disease that I can think of. How would it?
> 
> 
> 
> i believe it treats ich
> 
> salt+high temps
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's not disease. Yes, it can deal with parasites if using enough of it.
Click to expand...

fair enough =]


----------



## XtremeArtists

prov356 said:


> That's not disease. Yes, it can deal with parasites if using enough of it.


Although not specifically an aquatic study, salt has been found to be effective against fungus on citrus plants:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18396809


----------



## Clink51

i have no scientific proof, but i do know that when i add a bit of salt, fin regeneration occurs MUCH faster then regular.. maybe its my fish or something but it works for me


----------



## jd lover

Clink51 said:


> i have no scientific proof, but i do know that when i add a bit of salt, fin regeneration occurs MUCH faster then regular.. maybe its my fish or something but it works for me


it also has to do with the water quality for fin regeneration i believe


----------



## prov356

XtremeArtists said:


> prov356 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's not disease. Yes, it can deal with parasites if using enough of it.
> 
> 
> 
> Although not specifically an aquatic study, salt has been found to be effective against fungus on citrus plants:
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18396809
Click to expand...

Fungus is not a disease. And you're right, plant studies mean nothing in the aquatic world.



> i have no scientific proof, but i do know that when i add a bit of salt, fin regeneration occurs MUCH faster then regular.. maybe its my fish or something but it works for me


Far from a scientific study. Tell me what you think adding sodium chloride does to promote healing. The fish heals because that's what it's designed to do. To speed that up, you'd have to trigger something within the fish to speed up those processes. If it truly does that, we should all be eating more salt.


----------



## prov356

> it also has to do with the water quality for fin regeneration i believe


This is how these myths get perpetuated. Someone hears something and it gets passed along enough until it becomes fact in the minds of many. I add salt, the fish heals, so the salt healed the fish.


----------



## XtremeArtists

prov356 said:


> To speed that up, you'd have to trigger something within the fish to speed up those processes. If it truly does that, we should all be eating more salt.


It's benefits (if any) would from a topical application, not ingestion...


----------



## XtremeArtists

"the antiseptic action of salt on the skin and mucous membranes has been known for a very long time"

http://www.tribunes.com/tribune/sel/worm.htm


----------



## XtremeArtists

prov356 said:


> This is how these myths get perpetuated. Someone hears something and it gets passed along enough until it becomes fact in the minds of many.


Such as your view that salt has no benefit?


----------



## prov356

XtremeArtists said:


> "the antiseptic action of salt on the skin and mucous membranes has been known for a very long time"
> 
> http://www.tribunes.com/tribune/sel/worm.htm


Show me a fish study. Huge difference between people living in the atmosphere and fish living in the water.



> It's benefits (if any) would from a topical application, not ingestion...


Fair enough, then explain how it does that topically for fish.



> Such as your view that salt has no benefit?


Has no proven medicinal value to fish. Until it's proven that it does, I won't believe that it does. If some want to believe anecdotal evidence, that's fine. I just choose not to. It's not my 'view'.


----------



## XtremeArtists

prov356 said:


> Show me a fish study. Huge difference between people living in the atmosphere and fish living in the water.


The effects of salt on bacteria in a solution are well documented.



> Has no proven medicinal value to fish. Until it's proven that it does, I won't believe that it does. If some want to believe anecdotal evidence, that's fine. I just choose not to. It's not my 'view'.


I'm not discussing anecdotal evidence.

The fact that salt has antiseptic properties is not scientifically disputed.

It is, in fact, your opinion on salt that has no scientific backing.


----------



## prov356

> The effects of salt on bacteria in a solution are well documented.
> 
> The fact that salt has antiseptic properties is not scientifically disputed.


Ok let's say salt has an effect on bacteria in solution. Which bacteria? Bacteria that cause disease in fish? What studies have been done in that area? Links please. I've read a bit in my day too. You won't find what you're suggesting is out there. Not as it relates to healing disease in fish or torn fins for that matter. Anyone is free to believe what they want to, but not free to state something as fact when it isn't. Not without a rebuttal from me, anyway.  And this is how the scientific processes work. It's not fact until it's proven to be so. Not the other way around as you're suggesting.


----------



## Number6

XtremeArtists said:


> The effects of salt on bacteria in a solution are well documented.


 Yes they are... as is the reason why it affects some species in one way and has no effect on others. Were you not aware of this?



XtremeArtists said:


> The fact that salt has antiseptic properties is not scientifically disputed.


 Yes, yes it is... one can find discussions of the uses of salt from both water purification studies and dental hygeine studies. Regardless, anti-septic does not mean it could be used like a medicine. Nobody in their right mind would suggest adding honey to a tank, yet it has "anti-septic" properties.



XtremeArtists said:


> It is, in fact, your opinion on salt that has no scientific backing.


Actually, yes... his position does. I don't even have to refer to journal articles for this one... just standard microbiology... 
http://textbookofbacteriology.net/themi ... ntrol.html


----------



## XtremeArtists

Number6 said:


> Actually, yes... his position does. I don't even have to refer to journal articles for this one... just standard microbiology...
> http://textbookofbacteriology.net/themi ... ntrol.html


What in that link support your claim?

This part?

"Salt - retards bacterial growth."


----------



## XtremeArtists

You may be interested to learn that several according to the Encyclopedia Britannica several of the African Rift lakes are considered brackish.

Malawi (Nyasa) and Tanganyika both contain sodium at a lower level than would be termed "brackish"

Lake Tanganyika-
60ppm sodium
20-36ppm Cl

Lake Malawi-
21ppm sodium
4ppm Cl

*With Malawi water, you are basically dealing with water that is high in sodium *(~21.0mg/L), calcium (~ 16.4-19.4 mg/L), magnesium (~4.7-8.8 mg/L), chloride (~4.0mg/L), and sulfate (~5.5 mg/L), while being surprisingly low in carbonates and bicarbonates (~2.4-2.6 meq/L). 
_source: "The Chemistry of the African Rift Lakes"_

Tanganyika: Sodium (~57-64), calcium (~9.2-17.6), magnesium (~39-43), chloride (~29-37), sulfate (~7-15), with a carbonate, bicarbonate count of ~6.0-6.8. *As you can see, the values are comparatively quite high*, with the exception of calcium. 
_source: "The Chemistry of the African Rift Lakes"_

*Na (sodium) (mg/L)*
Victoria: 10.4-13.5
Malawi 21.0
Tanganyika 57-63.6

_source: Talling & Talling (1965)_


----------



## prov356

Ok, yes, there's sodium in the rift lakes. That's true. Not sure where you're going with this.


----------



## XtremeArtists

prov356 said:


> Ok, yes, there's sodium in the rift lakes. That's true. Not sure where you're going with this.


Sodium *and* Chloride (NaCl), or salt.

Although the ratio of Sodium to Chloride is slightly different than in the lakes (almost an inverse relationship).


1. Cichlids evolved in water that contains salt.

2. Many photographers report that African Cichlids show the best color when kept at warm temperatures (~80-82 Fahrenheit) and in waters that resemble the salt content of their respective lakes. Coloring is a main draw to keeping these fish.

3. Salt has been demonstrated to posses anti-bacterial and anti-fungal properties.

4. Salt has been demonstrated to be effective in the treatment of parasites such as Ich.

5. Salt is not required, since African Cichlids are hardy enough to live in a variety of conditions, from brackish to tap water, but just as people can live in polluted cities far from the African plains we evolved in, disease is often a result of ignoring the environment in which an organism evolved.

6. To say that salt "has no medicinal" or other value to someone keeping African Cichlids (simply because you heard/read someone say salt is not needed) is a great disservice to the community you propose to help as a "moderator."

I have seen several of your posts that are helpful and on target, but not in this thread.


----------



## prov356

> 1. Cichlids evolved in water that contains salt.


Not sure what the point is, but I'm not an evolutionist, so probably not the one to debate this with you.



> 2. Many photographers report that African Cichlids show the best color when kept at warm temperatures (~80-82 Fahrenheit) and in waters that resemble the salt content of their respective lakes. Coloring is a main draw to keeping these fish.


I've not heard many aquarists report this that I can think of. Where do photographers come into this? I'm confused on this one. Are you saying that photographers in the lake report that fish have better color in warmer water? Ok, but what does that have to do with salt? Are you connecting that fish are healthier and do better if lake water parameters are matched including the sodium chloride content? If so, is that because of the sodium chloride? Since many have successfully kept rift lake cichlids without matching rift lake parameters, I'd suggest this isnt' true. Actually, I doubt anyone has bothered to try to match their water with rift lake water. I've never seen it recommended, until now.



> 3. Salt has been demonstrated to posses anti-bacterial and anti-fungal properties.


But, it's never been proven to be effective as a treatment against bacterial infestations in tropical fish kept in an aquarium. So, I'm going to be skeptical until it has.



> 5. Salt is not required, since African Cichlids are hardy enough to live in a variety of conditions, from brackish to tap water, but just as people can live in polluted cities far from the African plains we evolved in, disease is often a result of ignoring the environment in which an organism evolved.


Poor analogy, and again, I'm not an evolutionist. Plus no evidence to back up the claim that you seem to be making that fish are more disease prone if not kept in rift lake water conditions.



> 6. To say that salt "has no medicinal" or other value to someone keeping African Cichlids (simply because you heard/read someone say salt is not needed) is a great disservice to the community you propose to help as a "moderator."


I say it has none because it's never been proven to have any. I do research things, and not just go by hearsay.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion on my ability as a moderator. I do my best to serve. If I've failed anyone, I do apologize for that. But, I will remain skeptical about using salt to treat disease in freshwater fish. No evidence that it's affective. And again, I"m not talking parasites or fungus. Parasitic problems can be treated with the *correct dosages*, but those are often unkown by the one giving the advice.

The problem with generalizing and saying it's affective against bacteria is that no specifics are given on which strain or strains of bacteria it can be affective against. There are different types out there and even when using antibiotics, it's helpful to know what bacteria you're up against. Otherwise, you end up taking a shotgun approach and adding multiple antibiotics. And if it is so effective, then why don't the bacteria in our filters that we need suffer and die when salt is added? If salt is affective against disease causing bacteria of all types and left the nitrifying bacteria alone, then yes, it would be a wonder drug indeed. But, it's not. I think the argument for using it is that if you add a general dose, it can head off problems. Totally anecdotal and IME totally not necessary. I think that there are better, more effective ways to head off disease in fish than tossing in salt indescriminately. And until a study shows it's affectiveness and at what dosages, the indescriminately applies.

Finally, understand I'm not trying to convince you and change you, XTremeArtists. You are obviously as set on your position as I am. I'm just offering a counterpoint for anyone else reading this. All should do their own research and come to their own conclusions on what's best for their fish. Until something is proven, I remain skeptical.


----------



## davidinsarasota1

Prov356, Please explain "not an evolutionist"


----------



## prov356

> Prov356, Please explain "not an evolutionist"


I don't understand what needs to be explained.


----------



## Number6

XtremeArtists said:



> Number6 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, yes... his position does. I don't even have to refer to journal articles for this one... just standard microbiology...
> http://textbookofbacteriology.net/themi ... ntrol.html
> 
> 
> 
> What in that link support your claim?
> 
> This part?
> 
> "Salt - retards bacterial growth."
Click to expand...

Yes. That line does as does the rest of that material. You know what that line means right, and the significance of the section that it is in right? Or did you think that line backed you up somehow?

I can assure you that it does not...you would have to ignore the meaning of the word retard and think it is the equivalent of kills.


----------



## Number6

prov356 said:


> Prov356, Please explain "not an evolutionist"
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand what needs to be explained.
Click to expand...

Self explanatory to me. :thumb: and I label myself an evolutionist. Nobody needs to head "there" on a cichlid forum in my opinion. 8)


----------



## davidinsarasota1

Here's why the phrase "not an evolutionist" needs to be explained:

I have been following this closely reasoned, evidence based discussion about a subject that could be very important to the health of my fish. Both participants are discussing micro organisms, that adapt/evolve rapidly and Rift Lake Cichlids, whose diversity and environmental preferences are attributed to evolution.

If one of the participants then posits that he believes the earth is six thousand years old and all species popped into existence fully realized--I go with the other guy and continue putting salt in my aquarium.


----------



## prov356

You just wanted to start a debate about evolution. That was obvious to me and Number6, still is. And it's still not appropriate here. Please don't try to get one started.


----------



## Number6

davidinsarasota1 said:


> If one of the participants then posits that he believes the earth is six thousand years old and all species popped into existence fully realized--I go with the other guy and continue putting salt in my aquarium.


You must be in quite the pickle then since Prov and I agree on their being a huge lack of evidence about NaCL's effectiveness as a medication yet are not in agreement on other irrelevant topics.

The problem with salt as a medication, even for Ich, is that it does have some beneficial effects and therefore, gets credited for certain other effects without their being evidence to support it. 
E.g. Coloring up... Many reports of cichlids coloring up better when salt is added. Ok... From what to what? if any fish was feeling ill due to nitrite then one could imagine that they wouldnt be colored up too well. Adding salt helps, fish color up. So salt did it right? But... My fish are already colored up to their full potential. Adding salt does not alter their color in anyway. So what did the salt do?

Same with Ich... We know salt does not harm the parasite under the fishes skin. We also know from repeated studies that the concentration of salt that will harm swarmers is too high for many species of fish to be ok with. So how is the Ich battled by the salt? 
I know the reason now, after quite some research into it, and i can tell you, nobody calls a blanket "medicine" for a reason!

Can salt have its place in our aquariums? Of course... But not because of myths and wives tales. It earns its place as a useful aide for our cichlids at certain times and for specific reasons.

Nuff said


----------



## sjnovakovich

ERROR


----------



## sjnovakovich

I'm surprised Prov hasn't locked this thread.


----------



## Number6

sjnovakovich said:


> ERROR


LoL 
Nice.



sjnovakovich said:


> I'm surprised Prov hasn't locked this thread.


If folks can stick to the discussion at hand and avoid ad hominem attacks that are unwarranted, then there isnt a problem.


----------



## BillD

I am a little curious about the statement that cichlids evolved in waters that contain salt. I am pretty sure that many of the cichlids in South America come from waters with no salt and some from waters with virtually no mineral.
I to have questioned the efficacy of salt. I can see it being an irritant or acting as a poultice to draw water out of a fish which might help with some injuries or in sloughing off parasites.


----------



## sjnovakovich

Number6 said:


> sjnovakovich said:
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR
> 
> 
> 
> LoL
> Nice.
> 
> 
> 
> sjnovakovich said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm surprised Prov hasn't locked this thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If folks can stick to the discussion at hand and avoid ad hominem attacks that are unwarranted, then there isnt a problem.
Click to expand...

The "ERROR" post was just that -- an error on my part. A user cannot delete their own post, which is a flaw, or perhaps a purposeful choice in the settings of the forum. Since I could not delete the post, I posted "ERROR" as a substitute, Number 6

Not only that, but the thread was completely hijacked by changing the topic to salt being a treatment for disease.


----------



## sjnovakovich

Oh... and by the way... salt DOES inhibit bacteria growth, as does sugar. Ask anyone of the major meat companies that cure pork for ham or bacon.


----------



## prov356

> Not only that, but the thread was completely hijacked by changing the topic to salt being a treatment for disease.


No hijack at all. The OP's question was about the necessity of salt. Some have used it as a preventative to disease over the past decades. We're still very much on topic and anyone who wishes can continue the thread along those lines.



> Oh... and by the way... salt DOES inhibit bacteria growth, as does sugar. Ask anyone of the major meat companies that cure pork for ham or bacon.


Doesn't mean it can be used to treat bacterial diseases of tropical fish. I'll hold to my position that it doesn't.


----------



## sjnovakovich

> Oh... and by the way... salt DOES inhibit bacteria growth, as does sugar. Ask anyone of the major meat companies that cure pork for ham or bacon.





> Doesn't mean it can be used to treat bacterial diseases of tropical fish. I'll hold to my position that it doesn't.


Seems like we're on two different points with the salt. I don't know whether or not it cures disease, you may very well be correct on that point. I'm saying that it inhibits bacteria growth. Inhibiting bacteria growth,is how I believe (note here: I believe and don't absolutely know) that it aids in healing fish. If a wound has less bacteria, it will heal faster than if bacteria are growing in the wound, or in the water.


----------



## prov356

> Seems like we're on two different points with the salt. I don't know whether or not it cures disease, you may very well be correct on that point. I'm saying that it inhibits bacteria growth. Inhibiting bacteria growth,is how I believe (note here: I believe and don't absolutely know) that it aids in healing fish. If a wound has less bacteria, it will heal faster than if bacteria are growing in the wound, or in the water.


Many believe that. I'll stay skeptical and I thnk with good reason.

But back to the point of the OP's original question, no it's not necessary to add salt in order for fish to heal quickly IME. I never add aquarium salt to my tanks and the split fins, etc heal just fine without turning into bacterial infections.


----------



## reflexhunter

Not trying to stirr the pot, but I too have used salt in the past to help with ick, mainly because that was what I was told to use by fellow aquarist, but the more I think about it something kinda struck me, if salt is used to heal wounds or cure ick do salt water fish ever have ick issues?

I don't know because I have never really had a salt water tank before. Tried it but failed miserably lol

Daniel


----------



## sjnovakovich

reflexhunter said:


> Not trying to stirr the pot, but I too have used salt in the past to help with ick, mainly because that was what I was told to use by fellow aquarist, but the more I think about it something kinda struck me, if salt is used to heal wounds or cure ick do salt water fish ever have ick issues?
> 
> I don't know because I have never really had a salt water tank before. Tried it but failed miserably lol
> 
> Daniel


Just as certain species thrive in fresh water and others thrive in salt, there is also a strain of ich that infects saltwater fish. Whereas the treatment for freshwater fish is hyper salinity, the treatment for saltwater ich is hypo salinity.


----------



## prov356

To be fair, I spent some time this morning trying to find anything new or contradictory to my position on salt. General consensus out there is that salt can be affective against certain parasites when used in high concentrations temporarily, as in a salt dip. I found very little encouraging the use of low dosages on a continuing basis. Here's a rundown on some of the more interesting stuff that I found including brief excerps. I had previously linked to the 'Skeptical Aquarist' site, but thought it worth repeating since it was back on page 1 of this thread.

Salt: friend of the parasite?

_Salt may not be the cure-all for certain illnesses. After decades touted as the comprehensive remedy, new findings suggests that in some cases sodium chloride (NaCl) actually helps particular parasites._

How and When to Use Salt to Treat Tropical Fish Diseases

_Salt as a routine additive to freshwater aquaria
Contrary to popular belief, there's no advantage to the routine addition of salt to freshwater aquaria. At best, it does nothing useful, and at worst it causes problems for fish unable to deal with the elevated salinity. There is some evidence that Malawi Bloat for example can be triggered by the careless use of salt in Rift Valley cichlid communities._

The skeptical aquarist: Salt

_Robert T. Ricketts' article, "The Salt of the earth... the salt from the sea," from Tom Griffin's former AquaMag, now archived at the AquariumWiki, is essential reading. Exploding Urban Myths about toxic additives and salt as a tonic as he goes, RTR also gives good explanations of general hardness (GH) and alkalinity or "carbonate" hardness ("KH")._

_"I'm far from a purist about water," RTR continued, "and rarely suggest folk go through the hassle of doing water modifications. I seldom do so myself. Most fish are quite adaptable. *But if I do water mods, I want them to be in the right direction and for sound and understood reasons. I will not do so because popular myth says it is good for all fish in all water at all times. I know better than that, and wish more hobbyists would think about why they do the things they do, especially when they are adding things to the water.*"_

Here's the link to Robert T. Ricketts' article referred to above.

The salt of the earth

Granted, scientific studies are few and far between. I'd suggest to anyone considering the regular addition of salt that they do some research of their own. Don't take my or anyone else's word for it. Consider all opinions and experiences and come to your own conclusions.


----------



## kamikaziechameleon

I think I read somewhere that salt content in a tank functions half like a copper safe. The salt itself is supposed to be "damaging" for fungus' and smaller organisms at levels that don't really harm most fresh water fish. The fish are indeed effected though and you shouldn't keep salinity up for the sake of it.

I also remember reading somewhere that increased salinity effects the way the fishes immune system and how they...sweat? As I understand it the freshwater fish are fighting over hydration being constantly immersed in water... and so their body is expelling water all the time. If you raise salinity that effects this process in a way that alters their immune system so that it will make it more difficult for parasites to enter their system. I'm probably fudging some facts in there but that's kinda the gist of what I recall.

At any rate I raise salinity when treating external parasites because it works, if it didn't I wouldn't use it. Effectiveness has determined many of the meds etc that I use and I think the belief that salt is such an effective med has been derived from centuries of experience as its the oldest fish med there is.


----------



## prov356

> At any rate I raise salinity when treating external parasites because it works, if it didn't I wouldn't use it.


Of course it does, at the right dosages. No one's argued that, I don't think.



> Effectiveness has determined many of the meds etc that I use and I think the belief that salt is such an effective med has been derived from centuries of experience as its the oldest fish med there is.


It's been used for a long time, but doesn't mean it's been effective. This is a common belief though, and why it continues to be used.

_I think I read somewhere _and_ I also remember reading somewhere _ are classic beginnings to the spreading of many myths in the aquarium hobby.


----------



## Number6

kamikaziechameleon said:


> Effectiveness has determined many of the meds etc that I use and I think the belief that salt is such an effective med has been derived from centuries of experience as its the oldest fish med there is.


I sometimes think that the reason that salt works as a "med" is because it stops the aquarist from blasting the fish with semi-harmful medications and gives the fish a chance to heal in it's own. 

Personally, I have not found sick fish to get better any faster with NaCl versus without it. I do not lose fish to Ich, ever... nor to fungi nor bacterial infections. Good clean water and a stress free environment is usually all I ever need to provide for fish. Can I claim now that clean water is a "medicine"?


----------



## GTZ

Number6 said:


> Can I claim now that clean water is a "medicine"?


It certainly is prescribed often enough and has proven to be an effective treatment/preventative for what ails your fish, just as 'dirty' water can lead to all sorts of illnesses.


----------



## rich_t

Good thread.

One of the online sources that I am considering buying from mentions: These fish appreciate a little salt or words to that effect.

So it is interesting to see such a wide spectrum of thoughts on the issue.


----------



## Mikecacho

This is a job for the "Mythbusters." Submit this for Jamie and Adam,


----------



## Mikecacho

I use salt sparingly, mainly to try and mimic the levels found in natural settings... why over complicate it?


----------



## Number6

Mikecacho said:


> I use salt sparingly, mainly to try and mimic the levels found in natural settings... why over complicate it?


 do you measure the salt levels in your tap water or source water first and only add what is needed to bump it up? Just curious....


----------



## prov356

Mikecacho said:


> I use salt sparingly, mainly to try and mimic the levels found in natural settings... why over complicate it?


And do you know the salt content of the areas where all of your fish are found and strive to keep all of your tanks at those levels? What if it varies between each species that you keep but you mix them in the same tank? And what about everything else that's found in their native waters, but not in out taps? Do you strive to match those also or is it just salt that's important? And what source did you use to decide that this was an important thing to do?

Not trying to beat up on you, but do you see what you get into?


----------



## Mikecacho

Number6 said:


> Mikecacho said:
> 
> 
> 
> I use salt sparingly, mainly to try and mimic the levels found in natural settings... why over complicate it?
> 
> 
> 
> do you measure the salt levels in your tap water or source water first and only add what is needed to bump it up? Just curious....
Click to expand...

Yes, i base it off the city readings... how accurate is that, who truly knows, but again i try not to over complicate that either. Yes i do measure it out.



> And do you know the salt content of the areas where all of your fish are found and strive to keep all of your tanks at those levels? What if it varies between each species that you keep but you mix them in the same tank? And what about everything else that's found in their native waters, but not in out taps? Do you strive to match those also or is it just salt that's important? And what source did you use to decide that this was an important thing to do?
> 
> Not trying to beat up on you, but do you see what you get into?


I see your point, but i figure what salt i am providing them with is a purified form, if you will, than what they are use to from nature. If i can somewhat match levels, i feel satisfied. I use no source because of the unknowns and mixed variables in all of those sources. As was said earlier, i go with my gut.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then again, who in this forum actually has true born Lake Malawi, or etc... Cichlids in the first place... Each fish is bread by a breeder who uses different water parameters than the next guy. Again, i try and mimic what i can and hope for the best.


----------



## fc2turbomss

Clink51 said:


> i have no scientific proof, but i do know that when i add a bit of salt, fin regeneration occurs MUCH faster then regular.. maybe its my fish or something but it works for me


just a note of personal experience...I'm not a fish, but as a kid, if I went to the beach with a scratch, abrasion or cut, it healed much faster after a few swims in the ocean than it ever did without. just my 2 cents


----------



## fc2turbomss

This was a great thread. My first post to it was after only reading the first page. And I still stick to what I posted, but also understand that a mammal born on land is in no way a fish born of lake malawi. 
That said, where is the problem in trying to mimic the Lake Malawi water conditions? And where is the problem if the ONLY condition you get right is the salinity? At least one of the conditions the fish is genetically adapted to is correct right? 
Is much research needed to attain the target conditions for the target fishes I wish to keep required? Absolutely. That's what brings me to this page in the first place. 
Do myths abound in our hobby? Absolutely. But in the realm of adding salt to your aqarium in an effort to mimic SOME attributes of the waters found in Lake Malawi, can it really be a bad thing? Assuming of course you are trying to raise a Malawi enviornment and populate it with fishes from the same.
I agree with prov356's position of 'without evidence there is not proof of benefit.' But lack of evidence does not DISPROVE benefit either. Sometimes the only way to prove something, scientificlly, is to show a range of experiences that have the same results. 
This all matters not. This was a great thread, a great debate, and informative in all but one set of aspects for me.
How much salt should I add to a 120gallon tank to attain the salinity of Lake Malawi? 
Over how much of a time span should I raise the salinity of the water (how gradual of an increase)?
What kind of salt? Judging from the article posted hear, I'm thinking uniodized salt would be best...but I know nothing of rift salt.
And I'm just looking for the opinions from those of you who, A. have a malawi tank and B. add salt.
Again, great thread...thanks everybody.
(as per the usual, my comments on this thread are at least a year late to be of any validity...lol)


----------



## Austinite

Interesting read, for sure!


----------



## wmpottsjr

XtremeArtists said:


> *Na (sodium) (mg/L)*
> Victoria: 10.4-13.5
> Malawi 21.0
> Tanganyika 57-63.6
> 
> _source: Talling & Talling (1965)_


If you add NaCl to achieve the 21 mg/L found in Lake Malawi then to a 55 gal tank you would need to add 0.5 tbsp of aquarium salt to the whole tank. Not per gallon, per tank.

55 gal = 208 liters
21 mg/liter = 4368 mg per 208 liters
sodium weighs 22.99 g/mole
NaCl weighs 58.44 g/mole
so NaCl is 39.34% sodium (22.99/58.44)
therefore 4368 mg/0.3934 = 11,100 mg per 55 gal tank

aquarium salt weighs 20 g/tbsp so about 0.5 tbsp will do it.

multiply by 3 for Lake Tanganyka


----------



## GTZ

But first you need to determine how much salt is already in your water.


----------



## wmpottsjr

GTZ said:


> But first you need to determine how much salt is already in your water.


After some digging I found out that my water has 11 ppm sodium in it. That's not much at all, but it reduces my requirement to 1/4 tbsp per tank. Ha ha, much to do about nothing.


----------



## jriver20

I had gold fish in the past and I added few table spoons of salt to the water because I went to college and I was going to be apart from them. Because I knew that my family didn't really care much for them cleaning my Tank was out of question. So adding the salt not only help the fish to be more relax, but it help them live a long healthy life. Also the thank did not have as much build-up and changing the water wasn't as required but adding some new one. I will say for my experience that adding salt to a tank is up to the individual, I have read a lot article on which cichlids can live on waters with a PH of 7.5 to 8. I currently have a 5 gallon tank with 5 cichlids and I myself added salt to the water, I added 1/2 tbs per gallon. That should keep the glass clean, with out any build-up, also the fish will be a little more relax since they are 1.5" each. There is a difference between a salt water tank which contains more salt than adding an natural mineral like salt to tropical fish.


----------



## Mcdaphnia

The possible therapeutic effects of salt in freshwater aquariums are met or exceeded by adding one teaspoon per 400 gallons of water. Those are reducing the toxicity of nitrite and easing the effort the fish needs to make to maintain osmotic balance. As mentioned, some people's tap water already contains a percentage of that. There is another source of salt in the aquarium that I overlooked anyone mentioning. When we use a dechlorinator, we are not removing the chlorine but converting it to chloride by donating sodium ions to the water. In other words we are making the chlorine into sodium chloride. That's salt.

I used to work in the salt industry. When you go into the salt mine with a little cut or scratch, the salt air does not heal it or sterilize it. Instead it stops the healing and destroys the skin cells that are exposed. When you finish your shift the scratch is just slightly bigger, and you look forward to your next two week vacation when your accumulated nicks can finally heal. Other than that little bit I put in while dechlorinating water, I don't figure on rubbing salt on my fish's wounds by adding more salt than that.


----------



## jriver20

Mcdaphnia said:


> The possible therapeutic effects of salt in freshwater aquariums are met or exceeded by adding one teaspoon per 400 gallons of water.


Hmmm, teaspoon per 400 gallons? Sounds like I need to call the salt company on my packaging cause they state on their directions " 1 tablespoons per 5 gallons or 1/2 tablespoons per Gallon. I am sorry but I don't think 1 teaspoon on 400 gallons tank will have any beneficial purpose.


----------



## Mcdaphnia

jriver20 said:


> Hmmm, teaspoon per 400 gallons? Sounds like I need to call the salt company on my packaging cause they state on their directions " 1 tablespoons per 5 gallons or 1/2 tablespoons per Gallon. I am sorry but I don't think 1 teaspoon on 400 gallons tank will have any beneficial purpose.


Aquarium salt is the biggest snake oil of the hobby. Don't buy into any claims or directions they give in their advertising or promotions. It is scientific research that demonstrated that one teaspoon per 400 gallons will do something beneficial. More than that just does harm.


----------



## jriver20

Do you have a link that speak about this. Cause seriously I never heard of it, and I do think 1 teaspoon per 400 gallons make any sense to ad, Hahahaha.

My fish are happy On their salty water


----------



## The Cichlid Guy

I doubt they will be happy in that 5 gallon for long. 

I don't buy into the whole "salt as a general tonic at all times" mindset. If you maintain good water quality and practice good husbandry, there's really no need for something like aquarium salt. Cichlid lake salts are another story.


----------



## johnnymarko

jriver20 said:


> Do you have a link that speak about this. Cause seriously I never heard of it, and I do think 1 teaspoon per 400 gallons make any sense to ad, Hahahaha.
> 
> My fish are happy On their salty water


Your fish are not happy in a 5 gallon tank.


----------



## jriver20

"Your fish are not happy in a 5 gallon tank."

Dude you are out of your mind! and some how you didn't even provide me the information! They should lock you out of this forum because you clearly don't know anything about aquariums. Lol stop feeding people nonsense !


----------



## johnnymarko

jriver20 said:


> "Your fish are not happy in a 5 gallon tank."
> 
> Dude you are out of your mind! and some how you didn't even provide me the information! They should lock you out of this forum because you clearly don't know anything about aquariums. Lol stop feeding people nonsense !


 =D>


----------



## jriver20

The Cichlid Guy said:


> I doubt they will be happy in that 5 gallon for long.
> 
> I don't buy into the whole "salt as a general tonic at all times" mindset. If you maintain good water quality and practice good husbandry, there's really no need for something like aquarium salt. Cichlid lake salts are another story.


I am sure once they grow I get a bigger tank where they can be move, they are currently 1.5" only have 5 of them and getting a new one once available. I read that they should grow between 5" to 6". So not a big deal getting a new tall bigger tank.

I had always used sea salt on my tanks and I never had a problem with it, is not like I salt them to BBQ them! I live and Manhattan and the water here can be very harsh, so salt can help improve the water quality. But hey each to their own I guess.


----------



## jriver20

They still happy not matter what people said !


----------



## The Cichlid Guy

That Venustus/Livingstoni is going to grow to 11" and require nothing short of a 125 gallon tank. The Red Zebra will probably kill all the other fish when it reaches maturity in a few months.

I don't mean to insult you or sound harsh, but these are the realities. It seems like you need to do some more research.


----------



## jriver20

Hahahahaha where are you guys getting this information? Cause I read online and went to the south east cichlids site and they don't mention this, I even research for their size when maturity comes and it saids no more than 6". Ok to be fair lets put a few much inches there as clearly people don't know how to user a ruler !

By the way, where in the video so you see a red zebra? Hahahaha


----------



## johnnymarko

I really hope you're just trolling....

There are people on here who have been keeping cichlids (successfully) for 20+ years...why would you ignore their advice? How long have you been keeping cichlids?

ETA: The size you're seeing on SEC is probably the sale size....not the full size the fish will reach when it matures...


----------



## DJRansome

jriver20 said:


> south east cichlids site and they don't mention this, I even research for their size when maturity comes and it saids no more than 6".


The way I read that was 6" is the size Butch is selling them, but they will grow after you receive them. Butch sells them up to 7" and fishbase.org says 9.8". Fish often mature larger in the aquarium.


----------



## jriver20

Some how I am trolling... But not completely.
I have done search online about their size and I find out between 5 to 6 inches.

But hey I am sure people could be wrong since I know they are wrong about sea salt used on a thank !

That's kind of weird, because I was advice fish tend to grow depending on their environment size.


----------



## johnnymarko

jriver20 said:


> That's kind of weird, because I was advice fish tend to grow depending on their environment size.


That is very false. Your venustus may not grow to 11" in a 5 gallon, but its internals will keep growing no matter what. It will eventually die.


----------



## jriver20

And he will die because... Because he can't grow?
I am sorry, I am just so confuse as of why. Never heard of that before. And I had fish since 1993.


----------



## johnnymarko

Well you seem to know everything there is to know. I won't offer anything else.


----------



## jriver20

Johnnymarko

I just don't like when people provide miss completed information. If you are telling me my fish are going to die because they are on a 5 gallon tank, support it, and backed up with some professional links. That's all.

I don't know everything, but is it ridiculous for someone to tell me, I cannot have cichlids on a 5 gallon tank even though they are between 1" to 1.5" each. That to me is just ridiculous! Again, if they do grow I will purchased a bigger tank for them. FLUVAL has some nice tanks.


----------



## johnnymarko

.


----------



## The Cichlid Guy

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... hp?id=1160

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/c ... p?sid=4061

If you Google "Venustus size" and "fish grow to tank size" you will find plenty of information on both.

I apologize; it looks like you have two yellow labs, not a red zebra.

Everything said still stands. Your fish will outgrow this tank in a matter of weeks, and 35-40 gallons will still not suffice. A lot has changed in our hobbby over the past 20 years, and it wouldn't hurt to do some reading and get caught up on information.

The reason we all keep fish is because we like them, and we care about them. Giving them the proper home and care should be your #1 priority.


----------



## jriver20

Hahahahaha!

So now I am a bad fish daddy! Ouch! If you ask me, I only have 5 cichlids, and a I think a 40 gallon should be sufient. Want to talk about bad fish keeping, how about those tank that are filled with over 100 cichlids ?

Again I had fish since 1993 and I never had a problem,well with exemption of the koi fish that make me wake up to pick him up from the floor!


----------



## GTZ

jriver20 said:


> Hahahahaha!
> 
> So now I am a bad fish daddy! Ouch! If you ask me, I only have 5 cichlids, and a I think a 40 gallon should be sufient. Want to talk about bad fish keeping, how about those tank that are filled with over 100 cichlids ?
> 
> Again I had fish since 1993 and I never had a problem,well with exemption of the koi fish that make me wake up to pick him up from the floor!


Enjoy your extended vacation.


----------



## johnnymarko

GTZ said:


> jriver20 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hahahahaha!
> 
> So now I am a bad fish daddy! Ouch! If you ask me, I only have 5 cichlids, and a I think a 40 gallon should be sufient. Want to talk about bad fish keeping, how about those tank that are filled with over 100 cichlids ?
> 
> Again I had fish since 1993 and I never had a problem,well with exemption of the koi fish that make me wake up to pick him up from the floor!
> 
> 
> 
> Enjoy your extended vacation.
Click to expand...

Ban?


----------



## GTZ

Unfortunately, yes. Back to topic please folks.


----------



## Mcdaphnia

reflexhunter said:


> Not trying to stirr the pot, but I too have used salt in the past to help with ick, mainly because that was what I was told to use by fellow aquarist, but the more I think about it something kinda struck me, if salt is used to heal wounds or cure ick do salt water fish ever have ick issues?
> 
> I don't know because I have never really had a salt water tank before. Tried it but failed miserably lol
> 
> Daniel


Yes there is saltwater ich. Not the same specific organism, but only the same name. The theory of salt helping is that it is an irritant and so causes the fish to grow thicker mucus. The theory imagines that thicker layer providing more of a barrier to reinfection than the fish's normal thickness. It is really an untested hypothesis, not a real theory since how would you design a proper experiment to prove or disprove it. I worked in a salt mine for five years. Every day two shifts of several huge dump trucks hauled aquarium salt to the back reaches of the mine and dumped it as waste salt. It is not going in my cup of tea. Because it is not sold for human or animal consumption, it does not have to list its contaminants. People wrongly assume that since it does not list any contaminants that it does not have any.


----------



## DJRansome

I use NaCl for medicine and for no other reason. I have used Epsom salt to increase GH but my GH=7 from the tap so it's not necessary.


----------



## Mcdaphnia

In low doses, salt is a micronutrient,something needed by cells. In high doses, it is a preservative, something important for safely storing many foodstuffs in the days prior to refrigeration and canning. In between, it is probably mostly harmless to most cichlids and some plants. So no matter what side of the debate you are on, it ultimately does not matter much at all.

If you do use salt and I might some day visit your fish room, please use iodized table salt. It is safe for animal consumption and has to pass purity tests that aquarium salt is exempt from. The "chemical" table salt often contains is the scientific name for dried powdered clay. You can see it momentarily as the salt crystals dissolve and the powder takes longer to get wet. Iodized table salt contains iodine in an amount that is right for providing an essential micronutrient that is present in the African rift lakes but not so much in most tap water supplies. Aquarium salt to me is creepy. I spent years of my life walking on it, spitting on it, and turning it yellow. I have seen all kinds of things in it. One coworker took a bite out of an apple then set it bite down in the salt. For several years it sat there looking red and fresh but if you picked it up it was almost weightless. We even found a spot where the chemicals from old electric company transformers had been illegally dumped in the mine and mixed with the aquarium salt. We got paid triple time to spend a few Sundays hauling all this polychlorinated biphenyl contaminant to an abandoned part of the mine where the roof and floor were getting closer together. I am reasonably sure that these and other contaminants are so dilute by the time you buy it they are inconsequential. But that does not keep my skin from crawling when I see a container of aquarium salt.


----------



## hisplaceresort1

Clink51 said:


> i have no scientific proof, but i do know that when i add a bit of salt, fin regeneration occurs MUCH faster then regular.. maybe its my fish or something but it works for me


+1 on that.


----------



## DJRansome

I'd consider helping fins to regrow a medical treatment.


----------



## Mcdaphnia

I would certainly consider enhanced regrowing of scales or fins a medical, environmental, or dietary thing. Scientific studies have shown that a B vitamin complex does enhance healing in fish. Healing is also improved by increased aquarium maintenance, throwing out old outdated foods that have lost their vitamin content, slightly raising temperature within the accepted range of the fish involved, feeding more live and frozen fish foods, improving the compatibility of the population in the aquarium by moving out bad actors, and increasing redox or the amount of oxygen in the tank water.

The fooler about salt is that when we see a problem with a fish, we almost unconsciously do several of the above things, and add some salt at approximately the same time. When the fish does improve, it is very easy to assume that it must have been the salt.

Unless you have fish or freshwater shrimp that are native to salt free waters and sensitive to salt, or most live aquarium plants, you have a huge difference between a beneficial level of salt and a toxic one. So adding salt is like wearing those purple unwashed socks to all the games of your favorite ball team. You will feel like you helped if they win, and until you sit next to someone who is 6' 10", musclebound and a short fuse and sensitive nose, it can't do any harm.


----------

