# Mislabeled Fish at LFS



## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

I took a trip to the LFS today and they had 2.5Ã¢â‚¬Â


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

It depends on how well I know the shop and how reasonable I believe them to be. Some guys will just argue that I'm wrong, and I could be, while others, usually the ones I know and spend too much time in, know I'm a tang fanatic and might even thank me for the info.


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

They don't know me at this place. So, that's kind of how I saw it too. They would either argue with me or question the validity of my information. And frankly, I wouldn't blame them for not taking my word for it. They don't know anything about me.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i think about it, and when i talk about fish i talk about them using their real names, and if they ask me which one? i just simply point

one keeps mislabling the location varient of their brevis


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## bulldogg7 (Mar 3, 2003)

how hard is it to label "sp. Florida"? if they aren't wild fish, they have no real location


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

If I started telling my LFS about all their poorly labeled fish I would be there all day. :wink: 
calvus sold as comps and vice versa does seem rather common here too.  
But yep I have given up telling em, they never listen, I guess they get it all the time and many of the corrections are incorrect if you catch my drift. I suspect some of them are also hybrid and rather hard to ID.
I suspect they just sell em as they were labeled by the supplier and wrong labels kind of give a clue as to the quality of the breeder/supplier.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

bulldogg7 said:


> how hard is it to label "sp. Florida"? if they aren't wild fish, they have no real location


I always thought that if the parents are wild caught and have a collection point, as long as only fish from that same collection point are crossed, they retain the collection point name even if they are tank raised.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Half the prob with calvus and comps is they often come in labeled up as Altolamprologus calvus (Black) or (Yellow) etc same with comps, without a proper regional location, so I guess many that are bred are unintentional regional hybrids and even those that are pure have lost some of the info needed to breed them well.


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## TangSteve (Sep 20, 2009)

DJRansome said:


> bulldogg7 said:
> 
> 
> > how hard is it to label "sp. Florida"? if they aren't wild fish, they have no real location
> ...


They do. You going to pay $50 for Front fry...nope. You going to pay $50 for Zaire Moba's, yep.


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## Longstocking (Aug 26, 2003)

I only tell one store they are wrong when they are...

Infact they have asked me to rename a lot of their fish.... I quickly do it when I see the name is wrong. They would prefer scientific names on all their tanks. How cool is that !

So yes, I do tell them... but most of the time they just hand me the label and a pen and say ok... do it :lol: =D>

I like this store as they at least try and realize the name some guy in florida put on them is not always right. Most stores just argue with you... so I don't bother saying anything.


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

Longstocking said:


> most of the time they just hand me the label and a pen and say ok... do it :lol:


This is a sign that you spend too much time at that fish store. :lol: That's pretty cool though, I have yet to see an LFS with more than the occasional sientific name.


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## Longstocking (Aug 26, 2003)

jrf said:


> Longstocking said:
> 
> 
> > most of the time they just hand me the label and a pen and say ok... do it :lol:
> ...


Actually I really don't spend much time there at all. I should spend more time there helping them out especially in these tough economis times. It just helps that they know I have spawned a lot of the fish.... and have sold them a lot those same fish so they know I am not full of it ! Most of the time it's some stranger telling them they are wrong which never comes across well. I have been going there for years though.... I help them sell the fish they have when I am in there. And I never try and sell my fish to their customers. That goes a LONG way !


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

*bulldogg7*
that is incorrect


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

cjacob316 said:


> *bulldogg7*
> that is incorrect


It is a valid view not incorrect but a valid opinion.
As soon as a wild type is bred with selection (which is unavoidable and not all ways a bad thing) it is no longer from the location.
It is I think the best way of describing a fish bred from wild. First generation from wild or second from wild or in the very crude and inaccurate terms many fish keepers and dealers choose to use F1 or F2.

Not that I care. :wink:

On the point of advising fish shops on the best label I think they should be left to sink or swim on their own knowledge and giving em advice that allows em to sell dodgy fish even if it gives you a personal advantage in selling em more of your home bred stuff, that is a bit dodgy don't you think. Not that I care one way or the other.

Hard economic times usually lets the bad dealers go to the wall and is good for weeding out the poor dealers. Ah but then I am being a bit harsh your LFS. It is great despite its weaknesses?

All the best James


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## bulldogg7 (Mar 3, 2003)

If an LFS mislabels them, then they're probably not from line bred or wild stock. Unless in a mixed bag, the info is usually written on the bag and the invoice. Our good LFS has records of what was ordered and the bags come labeled. I've seen some tanks at other places mislabeled, with borleyi labeled as peacocks for instance, I would never tell them it's a Copadichromis borleyi Kadango when it's in a tank only labeled "peacocks".


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

24Tropheus said:


> cjacob316 said:
> 
> 
> > *bulldogg7*
> ...


I would completely disagree with you on this. I think you keep Tropheus right? Your suggestion seems to be that after they are wild, you can cross any moori type for example, as their location no longer matters, and they would all be the same.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

location is sometimes the only way varients within a single species are diferentiated, so location varients are very important in breeding, no matter where they are bread

by saying that all cynotilapia afras that are bread in florida can no long be called by their original location is like saying there is no difference between all of them


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i also know that one month the tank might be full of peacocks and after they are gone, they bring in some borleyi (which has actually happened recently) and the tank still said peacocks on it, they just never changed it, but it wasn't written on there for the borleyi


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## bulldogg7 (Mar 3, 2003)

But you have no way of knowing if those cynos have crossed, especially if they are found in a store that has them mislabeled.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

but if cobues are bread in florida the name doesn't change to cynotilapia afra (florida) because they were born there


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

if you want to argue it then your best arguement would be that there should not be a location listed since it could be a cross even if it look slike it's from a certain location, not that the location should be where they were actually born

in my case i know that the location varient they had listed for the brevis was incorrect, i'm not sure that they are from a certain location, or that they aren't crossed, but i know they were not from where they had listed, that was obvious

same with my brevis, they were listed as dafodils, but i know they aren't, but since i don't know what they actually are or if they are not crossed, i don't plan to sell fry, i might even try to bring them back and pick up some from a breeder so i can be sure of the species


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Fogelhund said:


> 24Tropheus said:
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> > cjacob316 said:
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No mention of crossing was made. Label the young as first generation from wild collected from Ndole bay or as second generation from wild collected from Ndole bay. Best no not label the young as Ndole without any other info, that seems wrong to me and implies they are WC.
But yep it is the norm to label up stuff as from a location if they are bred from fish from that location. I think rather like Bulldogg7 that this is rather misleading without giving the rest of the info.
After a few generations the location becomes rather a bizzare label as the fish has changed due to selection by man. But yep keeping the locations as separate breeding pools is done because they have a higher value to the customers not for any moral reason, so right and wrong does not come into it, just preference.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

One nice trend I spotted in some of our LFSs is that they have started labeling up stuff as where it was bred with the name in "" so you know the label came from the breeder not the shop.

True many seem to be location crosses and some even species crosses and others are just plain wrong but at least you can prob find more of the same type if needed later.

All the best James


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

24Tropheus said:


> No mention of crossing was made. Label the young as first generation from wild collected from Ndole bay or as second generation from wild collected from Ndole bay. Best no not label the young as Ndole without any other info, that seems wrong to me and implies they are WC.
> But yep it is the norm to label up stuff as from a location if they are bred from fish from that location. I think rather like Bulldogg7 that this is rather misleading without giving the rest of the info.
> After a few generations the location becomes rather a bizzare label as the fish has changed due to selection by man. But yep keeping the locations as separate breeding pools is done because they have a higher value to the customers not for any moral reason, so right and wrong does not come into it, just preference.


..and if you don't label it, there will be those who will just cross them with other fish that aren't labeled as being descendents of specific locations.. because they will all be labeled as the same. I like my wildcaught fish, but there are many species of fish that F400's are identical in looks to their wild cousins. Sure, there are a few fish that have been linebred, but generally speaking there is little selection by man going on. The selection is usually limited to that male that colours up first, the dominant fish. Fish need to have that location name, as it is an accurate description of what the fish is. F1, F2 or F400.

There is a difference between T. moori mplungu and T. moori Samazi. There is a difference in these fish, and people should know what they are getting. If there isn't a F1, or F2 tag, people know they are getting tank raised fish.

Not only is important, it is the responsible thing to do, to put the accurate and proper label on the fish. If we sell just Pseudotropheus elongatus, then we are representing that they are all the same. It is promoting hybridization, as surely many people will believe that it is "just" an elongatus, therefore there is no issues with breeding Mpanga with Chewere, as they fry will just result in more elongatus "no location attached".

Unless your viewpoint is that nothing more than F1's should ever be bred, but that isn't a viewpoint I can support for a number of reasons, including natural preservation of species.


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## bulldogg7 (Mar 3, 2003)

If an LFS mislabels variants, they likely came in that way. If they appear to be another type then they could possibly be a cross, swapping the names might just lead to further crossing.
Not all LFS get their stock from reliable sources, but the ones that do it seems they'd know what was in the order.


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## Longstocking (Aug 26, 2003)

24Tropheus said:


> cjacob316 said:
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> 
> > *bulldogg7*
> ...


I will just flat out disagree with you. First off they aren't dodgy fish, BIG assumption on your part. This is probably the best LFS in the area. Or at least one of them. If they are humble enough to realize they don't know everything and ask for guidance that says A LOT. Most fish stores will make stuff up just to make the sale.

So it's ok to steal someone's customers? Not ok... and VERY unethical.

Being HUMBLE is not a weakness it's a stength and is why this particular fish store stays open for business for over 40 years. And is why it is the only fish store I sell to.

If some fish has a trade name on it and I am 100% that it is a pure bred fish and I know it's scientific name. I will continure to help them by changing the lable. Not doing so would be ignorant on my part.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

None of that I disagree with. Just being rather inaccurate with how I express it.
Except maybe to consider the question of how does breeding them in captivity help preserve them?
They are never to be reintroduced. Surely reintroduction to the wild would course more damage than good?


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Longstocking said:


> 24Tropheus said:
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> 
> > cjacob316 said:
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Sorry wish I had not written that.
I do not see how a fish witch has lost its correct label can be IDed 100% when there are so many hybrids and location crosses about that can look similar to either parent.


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## Longstocking (Aug 26, 2003)

I do not put locations on them.... as there would be no way for me to know that. That would be silly 

Just the basics so people ( including their workers) can do their research. This store puts "hybrid" on the label when they find out that they are  I don't think they purposely buy them...

Very good store.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

24Tropheus said:


> None of that I disagree with. Just being rather inaccurate with how I express it.
> Except maybe to consider the question of how does breeding them in captivity help preserve them?
> They are never to be reintroduced. Surely reintroduction to the wild would course more damage than good?


I don't know whom you are responding to, as several posts happened quickly here. Of course these fish are unlikely to ever be reintroduced to the wild, and preservation, is for hobby purposes only. It isn't impossible that we could lose access to wild fish at some point, so we should act accordingly, to preserve distinct lineages for future hobbyists to enjoy.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Fogelhund said:


> I don't know whom you are responding to, as several posts happened quickly here. Of course these fish are unlikely to ever be reintroduced to the wild, and preservation, is for hobby purposes only. It isn't impossible that we could lose access to wild fish at some point, so we should act accordingly, to preserve distinct lineages for future hobbyists to enjoy.


Very laudable aims. Yep it was your post I was answering (rather poorly). :thumb:

Does the same apply to selected lines, mutant lines and hybrid lines or just wild type lines? :wink:


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

24Tropheus said:


> Fogelhund said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know whom you are responding to, as several posts happened quickly here. Of course these fish are unlikely to ever be reintroduced to the wild, and preservation, is for hobby purposes only. It isn't impossible that we could lose access to wild fish at some point, so we should act accordingly, to preserve distinct lineages for future hobbyists to enjoy.
> ...


I suppose one could make an argument for wild types, selected lines, mutant and hybrids alike. Not that I like them all, but this is an ornamental fish hobby, and if somehow they add value than they should be somehow preserved. Myself, I like the wild types, and that is what I would focus on for my personal enjoyment and encourage others to do the same.


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## Petrochromislover (Feb 23, 2009)

this happened to me yesterday at my LFS. They had Telmatochromis caninus labled as telmatochromis temporalis and trust me i know what Telmatochromis temporalis looks like i have a WC pair.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i don't make a big deal out of wc to F400

i don't care as much how far from the wc specimens my fish are, as long as there is a trace to the same wild caught species, and that there isn't a brevis (kigoma) mixed in with brevis (katabe) somewhere in it's history

but using the original location is important because that's how many fish are id'd
a Labidochromis sp. "Hongi" is still called that if it is collected at undu reef, it doesn't have to be collected at hongi to be named that

and yes this fish is collected at serveral locations, the location name to a fish is a variant indicator more so than a collection location (although some only exist at the location it is named for)


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

Petrochromislover said:


> this happened to me yesterday at my LFS. They had Telmatochromis caninus labled as telmatochromis temporalis and trust me i know what Telmatochromis temporalis looks like i have a WC pair.


Oh, they had Telmatochromis caninus? I think you just mislabeled Telmatochromis dhonti... :lol: This just shows how much confusion surrounds the labeling of fish in general.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

cjacob316 said:


> this fish is collected at serveral locations, the location name to a fish is a variant indicator more so than a collection location (although some only exist at the location it is named for)


Not only true for some Malawi cichlids but also many Tropheus I think, with over 100 names for colour types and no agreement on how exactly these fall into species, some proposed species still lack formal descriptions, others have only variant indicator names.

Ask 4 Tropheus experts what they include in Tropheus moorii and you could get 4 different answers.

All the best James


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## fiupntballr (Jul 7, 2004)

This has shifted quite a bit from helping local fish stores on identification of mislabeled fish.

I sometimes politely mention that they have something mislabeled and why. One time I was told Ã¢â‚¬Å"there is nothing we can do, it came in that way, so we sell it that wayÃ¢â‚¬Â


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

After reading 3 pages of this I have decided to take all my Tropheus and throw them into one tank. I will no longer have Ilangi, Lufubu, Kasakalawe and Linangu. I will now have just one type, Tropheus sp. Scarborough. I will start work on my featherfins next. Thank you.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

noddy said:


> After reading 3 pages of this I have decided to take all my Tropheus and throw them into one tank. I will no longer have Ilangi, Lufubu, Kasakalawe and Linangu. I will now have just one type, Tropheus sp. Scarborough. I will start work on my featherfins next. Thank you.


Did you buy a new larger tank?


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

I bought another 120 but I'm just going to put them all in a 55g with some clown knifes and no filter because there should be enough bacteria in the substrate.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

noddy said:


> I bought another 120 but I'm just going to put them all in a 55g with some clown knifes and no filter because there should be enough bacteria in the substrate.


Don't forget the obligatory red-tailed cat and a couple pacus!


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

How could I ?


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

I hope this isn't too far off topic but aren't quite a few of these fish (Tangs) shipped from a port in Zambia? Assuming that the majority of the southern fish are exported from the main Zambian port, I wonder how many variants, via escape, unacceptable condition, or any reason, are "re-introduced" at the port?

My point being, I guess, that I bet their are some variant mixtures happening around the lake via reintro of one kind or another. This neither negates nor solves the "mislabeling issue" just food for thought. Maybe even junk food


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

I doubt there are many reintroductions into the lake, culls are culls and probably end up in the grass, as food for the other fish, or on a plate.


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## fiupntballr (Jul 7, 2004)

*** thought about this but the feedback I have received from people that have been out there is that introductions are very minimal due to the type of fishing done where there arent many survivors. There is one study where they have looked at some mixing and they are showing populations studied showed a strong mate selection and hybridization was lower than expected when the fish were introduced.


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

I went back to this LFS today and the Comps are now labeled correctly. :thumb: They also added a couple more Tang tanks - Julie and Occies. Of course, the Julie tank has no rocks and the Occie tank has no shells, but at least they had the right labels. :lol:

The Occies were pretty cool. Only 1/2" and already full of attitude. I'm tempted to get some. I'll just need another tank and somewhere to put it.


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