# Tanganyikan water quality question?



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

Most of my tanks have a certain amount of live plants in them and because of this I add fertilizers to my aquarium water depending on how many plants etc.

Since my fish room is stocked only with Tanganyikan cichlids I pay close attention to water quality testing ammonia,NItrite, nitrate, high range ph, KH, and GH pretty often.

Lately I"ve noticed that my nitrates are as close to absolute zero as it gets. I usually change water every week and more often in my fry tanks but is it even necessary to change water ever if you're consistently reading 0 ammo, 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate, KH steady @9-10 degrees, GH @ 11 degrees, and PH of 8.2-8.4?

I mean I'm sure eventually it'll dirty up enough to read nitrates won't it? The plants I assume are consuming all of the nitrates and my local water plus the aragonite in my sumps, filters etc. buffer quite consistently. Other than however long it takes to over mineralize my water due to top offs is there a real reason to mess with it?

I've got a friend that seriously only changes his water in a 100 gallon tank stocked with fronts every 6 months! But the fish seem fine. Are we tanganyikan snobs taking water changes too far or are my plants masking something potentially deadly?

I am one of those freaks that loves cleaning tanks but I am just curious as to wether any of it, with the exception of occasionally scraping algae, is necessary when you're reading such quality parameters?


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I find if I leave the nitrates under 10ppm too long the plants start to have problems and I get cyanobacteria.

Nitrates is just an indicator that they water needs to be freshened. I figure the plants are taking care of the nitrates, but I still need to do water changes to remove other stuff that we don't test for.


----------



## elilang (Dec 18, 2011)

I change water (~25%) every week, i find that the color of my water gets brown over time even if pollutant levels are nil. im sure your tank could go months without a water change, but it would be ugly...


----------



## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve heard the argument that youÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re also replenishing the Ã¢â‚¬Å"trace elementsÃ¢â‚¬Â


----------



## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*BioG*
I had a planted tank plus refugium with algae scrubber... I found that I had to change 5g out of the 60g tank once every two months or so or the resident Discus would start to complain about the tank... No idea what that water change removed or added.


----------



## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

The biggest argument for water changes in planted tanks is to dilute the fish waste and hormones, etc that they release in the water. We only measure one aspect of their byproducts typically, but you can imagine that fish poo isn't purely nitrogenous.

The whole trace element thing- I don't believe that clean water has more trace material than the dust that falls in the tank or what's in the food.

Some of those things will break down naturally, but others likely build up faster. We all hear about those tanks that go neglected for months, but eventually they fail. Of course, the definition of failure may vary...

So, no- we're not crazy for doing frequent large WCs; just ask anyone who raises fry how fast they grow when they have clean water...


----------



## pistolpete (Dec 28, 2009)

fish release hormones, which in higher doses inhibit growth and reproduction. This is a natural sort of population density control in natural settings. In a tank these hormones can quickly reach levels that are detrimental to your fish's health. For grow out tanks this matters a lot, for adult only tanks not so much, but regardless is a good reason to keep up the water changes.


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

pistolpete said:


> fish release hormones, which in higher doses inhibit growth and reproduction. This is a natural sort of population density control in natural settings. In a tank these hormones can quickly reach levels that are detrimental to your fish's health. For grow out tanks this matters a lot, for adult only tanks not so much, but regardless is a good reason to keep up the water changes.


This is quite interesting since I do notice that often when I do my weekly WC's everyone starts breeding. Cyps do so particularly.

I'm also battling a slight hair algae problem. It's mostly isolated to the sump return heads but it's beginning to appear on some of the leaves of my crypts. I've tried rubbing it off gently with my hands but it's sticky stuff!


----------



## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

pistolpete said:


> fish release hormones, which in higher doses inhibit growth and reproduction. This is a natural sort of population density control in natural settings.


Ah... the old hormone warfare myth once again... doesn't exist. GIH are real, but they are internal tp a fish, not external... when they are measurable in the water column, they have already affected the fish and there is no evidence that I can find that they react to the hormone in the water column.


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

There must be some explanation for the fact that they (Most tangs) become very inclined to breed immediately after a well executed WC?


----------



## pistolpete (Dec 28, 2009)

I can cite no scientific papers to support the Growth Inhibiting Hormone "myth", but riddle me this: why do fry in grow out tanks with frequent water changes grow so much faster than those in tanks with less frequent water changes. That is a well known fact among breeders.


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

I agree not only do my many calvus fry tanks grow faster with 2-3 water changes per week (20% each time for Calvus fry regardless of tank size unless you've got nothing but newborn calvus fry in say a sandless 55+ aq then I do 1-2 per [email protected]%) But the mortality rates are SIGNIFICANTLY decreased if not eliminated all together. I never have had any poor water quality [arameter readings in my fry tanks because I change them over so much but when I break my routine with them, for vacation, busy or whatever, then I lose fry and/or see an obvious dip in growth rate which in calvus can be quite the setback! 

I'm not saying that the "GIH" thing is or isn't a myth, I hadn't heard anything of it until now but I have to say it makes sense. However, if there is a better explanation then I'm all ears, or eyes as this case may be.

There is quite obviously something which connects frequent water changes to mortality, breeding behavior and/or growth rates. What is it? Anyone? Until I hear something better I'm content saying "GIH" is at least a valid theory. I mean who needs documentation when we, most of us, can agree that the two are connected via experience and observation. I believe the cliche goes, "Good science is good observation" not, "Good science is good documentation" :lol:


----------



## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> There must be some explanation for the fact that they (Most tangs) become very inclined to breed immediately after a well executed WC?





> why do fry in grow out tanks with frequent water changes grow so much faster than those in tanks with less frequent water changes. That is a well known fact among breeders.


I think we need to be careful with these types of statements. There may be some truth to them, or it may all be perception. Stating that something is a well known fact doesn't make it so. It's more of a commonly held belief. And if fish do grow more quickly with more water changes, it's quite a reach to say then the cause is a reduction in a growth inhibiting hormone. Better to say the reason is currently unknown, more research needs to be done. It's ok to state something as a possible theory, but then it tends to jump toward proven fact all too easily and another myth is born.

I wouldn't say that most tangs become inclined to breed after a water change. I've seen it affect my west africans (some, and the reason is the simulation of the rainy season) and I've seen it affect my mbuna, on occasion. It could just be an improvement in overall water conditions including a boost in O2 levels among other things. Or the change in water parameters may signal something to certain lake dwellers that we're not aware of.


----------



## londonloco (Mar 31, 2011)

I have well water, my well water TDS count is hoovers around 500 out of the tap. I dose my heavily planted soil tanks (after they are established) with macro's (NPK) daily. I have never had to dose micro's due to my well waters content and the fact I faithfully change 20-50% of the water weekly. True, I have never had my well water tested for it's contents, but I know whatever micro's it contains, it's enough to sustain my planted tanks.

My African tanks all have pfs as substrate. I don't dose the water column but I've had great success with root tabs and plants for the few plants in those tanks that are rooted in the PFS. The rest of the plants grow on driftwood or rocks. As long as I keep up with the weekly wc's, my plants look great in these tanks.

I don't know if there are any trace elements in my well water that affect my fish. BUT, I do know as long as I keep up with my husbandry (weekly wc's, cleaning of filters every 6 weeks, not over feeding, etc.), I don't lose fish to disease, my fish breed regularly, have good color, and appear very healthy.

I wouldn't let up on your water changes, IMO, it's the best gift you can give your fish, clean water weekly.


----------



## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

pistolpete said:


> I can cite no scientific papers to support the Growth Inhibiting Hormone "myth", but riddle me this: why do fry in grow out tanks with frequent water changes grow so much faster than those in tanks with less frequent water changes. That is a well known fact among breeders.


Cause and effect... Stress on a fish results in the release of stress hormones WITHIN a fish itself. So a single fish under stress shows increased hormone levels. E.g. handling a fish with bare hands... very painful, results in a huge spike in hormone levels. Stress hormones are growth inhibiting hormones... the stress hormone programs a fish to stop growing, go into overdrive, etc. until stressful conditions cease. Breeding can either be triggered or stopped by stress hormones depending on the species! Fascinating isn't it...

So, water changes... Water changes don't cause growth in all cases as if fry have zero stress and high O2 levels, there is no growth 'spurt' so we can't say "why do fry in grow out tanks with frequent water changes grow so much faster than those in tanks with less frequent water changes".

We can say, "why do fry in many grow out tanks with frequent water changes seem to grow so much faster than those in tanks with less frequent water changes?"

Simple... GIH, and O2 levels... clean water and higher O2 levels results in a drop in GIH, and O2 powers growth! 
I'll bet our lovely internet myth came from exactly such a statement from someone in the Aquaculture industry or other... doesn't make the original statement wrong, just in need of reinforcement.


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

There's no way I think or even meant to imply that I know what is doing what in anyone's tanks but my own...

ANd I can't say, confidently, that when I change water in my tanks with adult cyp groups in them, an obviously higher average of the females will be holding the very next day. I can say the same about Calvus fry tanks (Mine).

However it seems species specific in my fish room. My Cyathopharynx, for example, don't seem to give a hoot about how clean their water is (relatively of course- I'm sure they'd complain about parameters out of the ordinary) as it pertains to their painfully slow growth rates.

Adult Calvus don't seem to notice either and I could safely say that they are prone to laying low after a water change vs. trying to breed but I believe that is relative to how thorough the intrusion of your cleaning routine is. When I do the big Semi-annual/annual "Take all the rocks out and vacuum thoroughly, filters the whole ball of wax" My adult Calvus groups can be expected to hide for anywhere from a day to a week.

If I'm simply changing water, and I do it right (Temp etc.) they don't seem to care at all.

So I will say that, for whatever scientific reason, My Calvus fry tanks, of all sizes and setups, and my cyp tanks definitely show consistently and reliably that growth and/or breeding (actual or behavior) IS influenced in some way by fresh water changes.

It's hard to note the tone of a post because of it's literary nature but I was half-kidding about telling around that GIH was the reason for it all.  Even if I did, I would likely say something like,"I've heard that GIH might have something to do with it but I don't know""

"I don't know" is often the most intelligent thing to say I find :lol: 8)


----------



## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

BioG said:


> So I will say that, for whatever scientific reason, My Calvus fry tanks, of all sizes and setups, and my cyp tanks definitely show consistently and reliably that growth and/or breeding (actual or behavior) IS influenced in some way by fresh water changes.)


I absolutely believe you.... But, there are also other ways to increase O2 and decrease stress in your grow out tanks that you could do instead of water changes and you would get the same results. Personally I say that water changes are the easiest way to get these results in grow out tanks so keep up with those water changes!


----------



## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Cause and effect... Stress on a fish results in the release of stress hormones WITHIN a fish itself. So a single fish under stress shows increased hormone levels. E.g. handling a fish with bare hands... very painful, results in a huge spike in hormone levels. Stress hormones are growth inhibiting hormones... the stress hormone programs a fish to stop growing, go into overdrive, etc. until stressful conditions cease. Breeding can either be triggered or stopped by stress hormones depending on the species! Fascinating isn't it...


Well put, it's all about avoiding environmentally induced stress that releases those stress hormones within. Poor water conditions can trigger stress. Nothing in the water column would have a direct affect on how big or fast a fish grows. It can just trigger what goes on within. So, yes, it just needed to be re-thought and re-phrased.


----------



## axelfoley (Mar 11, 2010)

hmm, some questions answered and some questions raised... 
does a temporary lapse in a water change regimen have a permanent affects on the fry?
for example, if calvus fry are treated to a 25% w/c twice a week normally, but then only a 25% w/c every two weeks for two months - would any ill effects linger or would you expect the fish to resume a normally rate of growth and achieve their size potential?


----------



## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

axelfoley said:


> does a temporary lapse in a water change regimen have a permanent affects on the fry?


 the answer is yes, but the way youve worded it implies something negative which i dont think is 'right'. If fry are stressed for any length of time then compared to unstressed siblings, they will show some size differences. You can see this in your grow out tanks where the dominant fish almost always outgrows all others... Less stress and (probably) more food makes a noticable difference. This isnt necessarily "bad" though. Its how these fish are designed and many a smaller fish goes on to lead happy healthy lives.



axelfoley said:


> would any ill effects linger or would you expect the fish to resume a normally rate of growth and achieve their size potential?


If stress levels decrease, growth resumes but they will never catch up if they hit their age where they slow down on their growth naturally.


----------



## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I've been pondering this and had some additional thoughts.

If you can keep the water 'clean' enough so that the fry aren't stressed with a 25% weekly water change, changing 50% isn't going to make them grow more. It's not a direct relationship. Change enough water to keep nitrates way down, since that's what we can measure, and you've done all you can do to maximize growth, from a clean water standpoint. Keep the fry free from stress due to less than optimal water conditions and you'll optimize growth. Keep them free from stress from aggressive tankmates and you'll optimize growth. That assumes you feed a nutritous food in adequate amounts. If you could run a filtration system that would optimize the water, you wouldn't need to do water changes at all. It's not the water changes, but the clean water that helps to avoid stressing the fish. Water changes just happen to be the easiest way, typically, for us to accomplish that. Change water using replacement water that stresses the fish for some reason and it can be counterproductive.



> does a temporary lapse in a water change regimen have a permanent affects on the fry?
> for example, if calvus fry are treated to a 25% w/c twice a week normally, but then only a 25% w/c every two weeks for two months - would any ill effects linger or would you expect the fish to resume a normally rate of growth and achieve their size potential?


To try to answer your question, see Short Take: Stress In Fish, Part II: Why You Should Care About Stress In Fish

From the article:

_Long-term or chronic stress can slow or stop growth, due in part to cortisol released in response to stress that affects the metabolism of carbohydrates, lipids, and proteins. Stress can prevent reproductive activity while energy that is normally directed toward spawning is diverted to the more immediate needs of homeostasis.

Fish have a limited amount of energy, and stress increases energy demand. Chronic or continuous stress keeps the metabolism running at a faster rate because of this increased energy demand. This consumes energy, oxygen and glucose (Barton and Iwama, 1991). The normal functions of physiological equilibrium such as respiration, tissues repair, locomotion, and hydromineral regulation take priority over the investment activities of reproduction and growth. This means the diversion of energy to deal with an elevated metabolism means that less is available for growth and reproduction.

In order for fish to have a natural adaptive response to stress, they must first sense the presence of a stressor. The sensory cues to stressors can be chemical, hydrodynamic, acoustic, thermal, electrical, mechanical, light or other visual cues. The fish's abilities to sense a stressor (sensory behavior), recognize that stressor as a threat (stimulus recognition) and respond to the stressor (response capabilities) can all be affected by the duration and severity of stress (Pearson, Miller and Olla, 1980).

A mild stressor that is short in duration causes a correspondingly mild and short stress response. Severe stressors that continue for extended periods have the greatest impact and long-term consequences. The effects of stress on immune function can linger for some time after other physiological changes have returned to pre-stress levels (Maule et al., 1989)._


----------



## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

You don't have to be a scientist to figure out that water changes at the right % and done consistently tends to keep fish healthy.High nitrates will stress fish which will slow breeding and increase disease.To say for sure that more wc grows fish faster is a tough call.

Folks that change water consistently probably feed more and more often which makes fish grow faster.

Also temp has an important roll too.

I don't think changing the water not always increase O2 in the water.A filter return or sponge filter keeps the tanks saturated.My plants bubble O2 like crazy after a change which tells me that my tap water is high in CO2 or is a byproduct of the water conditioner I use.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

dmiller328 said:


> High nitrates will stress fish which will slow breeding and increase disease.


The question is if you have plants removing all the nitrates, is there still a benefit to water changes?


----------



## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

If the nitrates are near zero I see no reason to do a water change.

With that said there does seem to be a few species that a water change seems to trigger a spawn such as Tropheus and Xenotilpia,a change in hardness or temp that might trigger it.


----------



## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

dmiller328 said:


> If the nitrates are near zero I see no reason to do a water change.


Gets to the hub of this debate. Proving that there are other stressors that biuld up in the water is hard. Like the other guys from personal observations I think, there are other stressors and they can biuld up and limmit growth and a full immune system. I fully agree with those that do waterchanges even if the nitrate is not biulding up.
Just too much stuff in there we do not/can not measure.
To be honest not sure high nitrate alone is all that bad, (after all there are Tropheus hobbiests who have high nitrate tap water and as long as they keep up the waterchanges their fish survive if not show as much colour as in lower nitrate water) it may well be the other chems and compounds we reduce each waterchange that are the major stressors.

Stress from continuous but none fatal aggression prob being another major factor esp in tang cichlids.

I do not know for sure any of this but why take any risk? Waterchanges are easy to do. :thumb:

All the best James


----------

