# **** - added ammonia with surfactant to tank



## rowanthefrog (Jul 6, 2006)

I was starting a fishless cycle of my 75 gallon tank. After going to 5 different stores I finally found clear ammonia. I put in enough to get the 5ppm reading today and added some filter media that I got from the LFS. I only did one dose today. Then I looked at the bottle and saw it had surfactant in it.....****.

Did I screw everything up?? What do I do?

A


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## kfig7 (Nov 24, 2008)

Check this post out:

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... c&&start=0

What brand of ammonia did you buy?


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## rowanthefrog (Jul 6, 2006)

Well I added about the equivalent of 2 mL....probably less than 2 TBSP. Sounds like the safest route would be to drain it all and scrub everything, but I'm tempted to go get the real stuff, cycle it and put some danios in there to see how they do before I get my frontosas.

Ugh, I can't believe I did that.

A


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## psyber (Jan 7, 2009)

rowanthefrog said:


> I was starting a fishless cycle of my 75 gallon tank. After going to 5 different stores I finally found clear ammonia. I put in enough to get the 5ppm reading today and added some filter media that I got from the LFS. I only did one dose today. Then I looked at the bottle and saw it had surfactant in it.....#%$&.
> 
> Did I screw everything up?? What do I do?
> 
> A


I did the exact same thing about a month ago. My solution was to drain the tank rinse everything MANY TIMES with hot water (especially the substrate) and fill back up. Not sure if it worked or not as I am still cycling but I hope to add fish by the end of the week.

I like to think that my tank cycling is a sign that all of the surfactants are out but this is only a guess. I suppose it just makes me feel better. That being said, I have been super cautious about adding any decorations into the tank until I can see that it will support fish. In fact, I am so paranoid that I might trash some of decorations that I had in the tank when I started cycling with surfactants.

Something that gave me hope, and may work for you as well, is that when I search other forums for people who did them same thing, others were reporting seeing soap bubbles and such around their filter and could actual y see a layer of soap on the surface of the tank. I never had these symptoms. Not sure if I just had such a small concentration that it did not show up or that their ammonia had some other nasty ingredients. Hopefully you do not have these symptoms either.

Bottom line, even after several washes I am still concerned that I did not get all of the surfactants out of the tank. Even worse, the only way I can think of to test it is to actually try fish.

Good luck.


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## kfig7 (Nov 24, 2008)

rowanthefrog said:


> Well I added about the equivalent of 2 mL....probably less than 2 TBSP. Sounds like the safest route would be to drain it all and scrub everything, but I'm tempted to go get the real stuff, cycle it and put some danios in there to see how they do before I get my frontosas.
> 
> Ugh, I can't believe I did that.
> 
> A


I think you should be fine. Just get the right ammonia and start cycling. Unless of course you did have soap bubbles on top of water or a oil coating after adding it.

What brand was it?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I did a little searching on surfactants. According to Wikipedia:

_Surfactants are wetting agents that lower the surface tension of a liquid, allowing easier
spreading, and lower the interfacial tension between two liquids._

And
_
The term surfactant is a blend of surface acting agent. Surfactants are usually organic compounds 
that are amphiphilic, meaning they contain both hydrophobic groups (their "tails") and hydrophilic 
groups (their "heads"). Therefore, they are soluble in both organic solvents and water. The term 
surfactant was coined by Antara products in 1950.

In Index Medicus and the United States National Library of Medicine, "surfactant" is reserved for the 
meaning pulmonary surfactant. For the more general meaning, "surface active agent" is the heading._

They seem to be used in detergents, so maybe that's where the idea that surfactants are soap comes 
from. There are apparently many types of surfactants. Here's another note from Wikipedia.

_Some surfactants are known to be toxic to animals, ecosystems and humans, and can increase the 
diffusion of other environmental contaminants.Despite this, they are routinely deposited in numerous 
ways on land and into water systems, whether as part of an intended process or as industrial and 
household waste. Some surfactants have proposed or voluntary restrictions on their use. For 
example, PFOS is slated for persistent organic pollutant (POP) status by the Stockholm Convention. 
Additionally, PFOA has been subject to a voluntary agreement by the U.S. Environmental Protection 
Agency‎ and eight chemical companies to reduce and eliminate emissions of the chemical and its 
precursors. However, other industries operate outside of the voluntary PFOA program._

I'd just rinse everything really well. if it's porous, I'd discard and replace. That'd be the safe approach.


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## rowanthefrog (Jul 6, 2006)

The brand was homelife clear ammonia. There were no soap bubbles or oil coating. I added literally 2 mL - (2 eyedroppers) into my 75 gallon tank + the sump pump etc.

I took out the rocks and gave them a good scrub. I'll let you guys know what happens. Once I'm done cycling I am going to get some danios and see how they do before I put my "real" fish in....

A


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## rowanthefrog (Jul 6, 2006)

I got a PM asking for an update on how this turned out, so here it is.

We pulled out the rocks and scrubbed them and did a 50% water change. Then we proceeded with the RIGHT ammonia and successfully cycled the tank. When we added our fish everyone was fine and showed no distress and most are still alive (casualties were from other causes.)

So, given the TINY amount of the surfactant ammonia that I added, it turned out ok. Just sharing my experience.

A


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Thanks for posting the update. It's always helpful to see how it turned out.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

ok i'll tell you my experience,

i bought cheap ammonia at walmart to help cycle tanks, and for the longest time i had no idea it had surfactants, after using it to cycle 3 tanks which all ran successfully, and using it to clean deposits and algae on my hoods, i finally glanced at the ingredients and saw it had surfactants

so in all honesty, i'm really not sure how much of an effect it has on tanks, i mean soap has other chemicals and much larger ammounts of surfactants. ammonia just needs enough to mix into water, soap needs stuff to cut into grease which is much tougher. there may be a small enough amount of surfactant to be removed with the initial water change after the cycle, or they may not be as dangerous as thought to be


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I think you're right, *cjacob316*, and that all surfactants are not created equal. That's kind of what I found when I did some research on it. Hard to know for sure. If it doesn't foam up or create an oily, soapy slick, then it may be harmless, but I'm not ready to state that emphatically yet.  It would be nice if we could.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

true, i'm afraid to use it again, i might have just been very very lucky, but it was walmart brand, so it might have had a really really small ammount, it might be a brand by brand thing


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## aspen (Jun 15, 2004)

i think this is what carbon was invented for. i'd throw some carbon in the filter and remove it before adding fish.

rick


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Or spend $1 on what you're sure is safe. :wink:


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## inlitenme (Dec 23, 2012)

Best and safest way to go is to swap out everything and rebuild your biofilter. Surfactants are tricky in several ways and come in several varieties. However, all of them are partially activated by contact with water (which is already in most commercial ammonia) and establishes a molecular bond between a lipid (oil base) and carries it off the surface and down the drain (or into the filter). If surfactants are in porous gravel, they will remain there until the come in contact with oil, or are boiled away. Of course fish oil will float to the top (as will all lipids). The remaining surfactant load is dangerous if it is disturbed and cycles through the tank and filter. It strips the mucus (lipid base) from fish gill lamellae. More delicate fish will die from shock and petechial hemorrhage. Hardier fish will begin overproducing mucus to protect their gills from the irritation ... however the mucus coating can become so thick that it actually slows or prevents exchange of gasses interupting respiration to the point where the fish suffocate. Ammonia compounds like quaternary ammonium can be almost instantly lethal to aquatic organisms.

I would at least rinse your substrate several times with very hot water (nothing else). Change your filter. Do a complete restart on the cycle. When ready, put some rather hardy bottom feeders in the tank for a couple of weeks. If they remain healthy and their gills do not show signs of dragging small strings of mucus from behind the operculum, you may be safe. If they start rapid gilling (attempted respiration) and trips up to break the surface, then get them out and change the substrate. Try again. get safely through the cycle, nitrate rise, and water change twice before putting additional fish. It's best to get your ammonia in an aquarium store, or online supplier for aquarium products (it's worth the wait or a little higher price).

Good definitive explanations of the effects of surfactants on fish are available in a publication: _The effects of surfactants on the permeability of isolated perfused fish gills to urea.
M.A Partearroyo, S.J Pilling, M.N Jones_

I've been a fisheries biologist for over 30 years ... and I still make some bonehead mistakes with my aquariums! Good luck!

" Compared to interactions between isolated epithelial cells and the surfactants, the rates at which the surfactants changed the urea flux were slow, suggesting that the mucus layer plays a significant role in protecting the epithelial cells of the secondary lamellae from disruption."


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