# New Guy here, Quick Question about Water Hardness



## Doyoulikefishsticks (Jan 10, 2013)

Hello forum, I will be making an introduction thread about myself soon, but I'm having a more pressing matter at the moment. I was recently given a large aquarium (I think its a 70-80 gallon tank the tank is 48"L 21"H 18"D) full of various fish, African Rift Valley fish, (Probably about 10 total of them) and there are a few from Central/South America (Jack Dempsey, Convicts, Firemouths) including a suckermouth catfish. I know its a major community tank and kind of a compromise situation, but I was not the one who picked them all out. I've learned a lot about aquariums, water quality and maintenance, testing, etc.

My main concern right at the moment is doing a water change. I'm treating the tank with Metafix because one Firemouth has swollen up lips, and lot of other fish have torn up fins. I need to do a water change when I'm done because I have my Biofilter turned off. The real problem is this: I want to keep the water hardness (GH) at about 300ppm (I've read that is about right for the African Cichlids, but I know a little high for the others, like I said, its a compromise) and the issue is, my tap water is at about 100ppm. I read in a fish health book that any sudden drastic changes to the water hardness can seriously stress the fish, so I need to find a way to increase my tap water hardness. All I need to add to it is Calcium Carbonate correct? If so, does anybody know where I can order Calcium Carbonate? I know its pretty basic stuff and used in agricultural lime, chalk, mineral salts etc. Anybody know of where I can buy the stuff in powder form?

Another quick question: If my GH is at 300, what should my KH be at? I know KH is a measurement of carbonate hardness, is that specifically calcium carbonate hardness?

Thanks for any help!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

First, go by KH...GH is less important.

Second...what KH were the fish kept in before by the previous owner. To your point about minimizing fluctuations.

If you already have the fish in the tank at 110ppm then I'd go ahead and do the water change...it will stay the same...and then get your KH test kit.

KH is increased by adding baking soda. Regular baking soda from the grocery store. That's all you need, if you even need that.

Africans can thrive in 125ppm (7 drops) and maybe even less. I find it easier to discuss KH in terms of drops.


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## Doyoulikefishsticks (Jan 10, 2013)

Thanks for the reply. I'm not sure what the KH of the water was before, but a little background: It was my Dad's tank that he put together probably back in July. He recently passed away, so I moved the tank into my place. I kept as much of the aquarium water as I could during the move and I think its been relatively the same.

Anyway, the KH of the water (Last test was 12/30/12) is 3 drops (53.7ppm) I haven't tested the tap water for KH but I'll do that tonight. And, I realize that KH level is kind of low now.

I'm surprised that some websites I read info on cichlids, they had charts for specific species with their requirements for conditions, they listed hardnesses as general, and not using KH. But, KH clearly is the more important of the two? Since GH is just for all dissolved solids, but its the KH (Calcium amount?) that is most important?

So, just sodium bicarbonate eh? That will increase the hardness, but does that contain enough calcium to improve the calcium content?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The KH buffers the pH and keeps things stable. There is less impact of the GH, but you will find they tend to go hand-in-hand.

Add the baking soda and test to see. Or you can look in the Library for a recipe for adding something similar to commercial Cichlid Salts...but I think many of the experienced fishkeepers just use the baking soda.


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## testeve (Sep 17, 2012)

GH is as you said. General Hardness or simply the amount of minerals in the water, mainly Calcium and Magnesium. Malawi cichlids like hard water but not as hard as Tanganyika Cichlids, their water is extremely hard. If your GH is 300, that's really hard and you're good there. GH does not really change in a tank, unless you do water changes with lower GH or higher GH water. 
KH is Carbonate Hardness or more commonly referred to as Alkalinity. The ability for water to buffer is a measurement of Alkalinity. The higher the Alkalinity usually the higher the pH and the better it can stay high. However, Alkalinity is affected and lowered by the nitrification process, so water changes are important to keep he KH high especially if you have a high bio load. If the tap is too low than adding the baking soda to the water before it goes in the tank will definitely help keep the Alkalinity high and help maintain a stable pH. Use the baking soda, don't use any pH buffering chemicals that they sell in the stores.


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## pfoster74 (May 13, 2012)

testeve said:


> GH is as you said. General Hardness or simply the amount of minerals in the water, mainly Calcium and Magnesium. Malawi cichlids like hard water but not as hard as Tanganyika Cichlids, their water is extremely hard. If your GH is 300, that's really hard and you're good there. GH does not really change in a tank, unless you do water changes with lower GH or higher GH water.
> KH is Carbonate Hardness or more commonly referred to as Alkalinity. The ability for water to buffer is a measurement of Alkalinity. The higher the Alkalinity usually the higher the pH and the better it can stay high. However, Alkalinity is affected and lowered by the nitrification process, so water changes are important to keep he KH high especially if you have a high bio load. If the tap is too low than adding the baking soda to the water before it goes in the tank will definitely help keep the Alkalinity high and help maintain a stable pH. Use the baking soda, don't use any pH buffering chemicals that they sell in the stores.


what is wrong with the ph buffers they sell in stores?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Costs a lot more for the same ingredients you have in your kitchen. Plus by testing your water and adding your own baking soda or epsom salt (magnesium) you can add only what, if anything, your water needs instead of dumping in commercial mix that is not tailored to your water at all...you could be doubling up where you don't need minerals, etc.


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## testeve (Sep 17, 2012)

DJRansome said:


> Costs a lot more for the same ingredients you have in your kitchen. Plus by testing your water and adding your own baking soda or epsom salt (magnesium) you can add only what, if anything, your water needs instead of dumping in commercial mix that is not tailored to your water at all...you could be doubling up where you don't need minerals, etc.


DJ is correct. Additionally, those products are usually chemicals containing sodium and or chloride which are not a minerals you really want to add to your tank. The pH buffers can quickly alter pH, but since they are not natural they can quickly fade too, causing large swings back and forth, meanwhile you keep adding chemicals and sodium or chloride to the water which can really wreak havoc in the fishes ability to regulate themselves.


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## Doyoulikefishsticks (Jan 10, 2013)

I read the article here about rift lake buffer recipe: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/buffer_recipe.php

I like the idea of mixing these salts together in my tap water. I just am not sure what proportions I should go for, what kind of GH and KH I will need. DJ you mentioned 125ppm KH is good for them, but keep in mind I have some central/south american cichlids as well. Three convicts, (And three fry which are about inch in size now) three firemouths and two Jack Dempsey's. Will they be okay at the same amount of KH? As I mentioned earlier, right now I'm at 3 drops (53.7ppm) KH in the tank. Will raising it 50ppm+ all at once be okay for the fish? I do need to add water, its short about 5 gallons.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Can't help you with that one, as I would not mix the fish you are mixing. But...I'm saying like 7 drops and you were going for more than double that so I imagine 7 would be safe.

You definitely want to do the increase over a period of a couple days.


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## testeve (Sep 17, 2012)

Agree again with DJ. I wouldn't mix those fish either. Sounds like you are almost half and half. I am not positive about SA/CA cichlids, but I think they prefer softer lower pH water? Regardless, cichlids are pretty hardy, unless you have wild caught, I wouldn't stress about the GH or the KH. I would focus on making sure you keep the ammonia, nitrite and nitrates down. Do regular water changes and testing and just keep an eye on the fish for stress. Really, I think you don't need to do much. I know someone who has been breeding Tanganyikan cichlids in 7.4 pH tap water for years.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The only concern I have is the KH of 3. That will not help keep the pH stable. My africans are happy at pH=7.8 but my KH is 7 and parameters are rock-steady.


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## Doyoulikefishsticks (Jan 10, 2013)

I've been testing the water quite a bit. I haven't tested it since I've had my biofilter off for...going on 4-5 days now (Still doing the Metafix treatment for the firemouth with the swollen lips, and others with torn up fins) I'm sure now the ammonia, nitrate/nitrite levels are a little more. Last test I did (1/3/13), was before I started the Metafix treatment and my results were this:

Ammonia - 0-.25ppm 
pH - 7.6
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - 40ppm

It is kind of hard for me to judge the color of the solutions against the charts, so I might be off a little bit. I do know that amount of Nitrate is a little to high though, and the best way to decrease that at the moment would be a water change, correct? I have no live plants, which I would like to get, but I do have a crawdad (I call him mini-lob(ster) not really sure what he is) and I KNOW for a fact he would dine on any type of live plant I put in there... 

Should I turn the filter back on? I already took out the carbon/zeolite cartridge filters. Still have the two foam filters in there though, maybe I should pull them out also? I'm concerned if I turn it back on with the foam filters, the Metafix stuff will get filtered out. It's been 4-5 days now, treating it every day with the proper dosage, and I'm not seeing any improvements of the fish...


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You never turn your filter off...never except for water changes. Melafix and all medicines will flow right through the filter...only carbon should remove them. Do a water change because 40ppm nitrates is too high.

The original aggression problem has not been solved, so the fish are not likely to get better with just medicine. They are still fighting. You need to isolate the injured fish in a separate tank while they heal.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

If you are set on adding Calcium there's a health food store product called Tri-Salts powder which is a bicarb mix containing Calcium carbonate, magnesium carbonate and potassium bicarbonate in a balanced formulation. http://www.pureformulas.com/trisalts-20 ... mulas.html

Because it's in carbonate form it isn't very soluable but it will go into solution easier than lime rock and buffer the amount of calcium in the water. It doesn't change pH to any great extent so sodium bicarb is still what you want for that. You'll want to play around with how much to add to get your water GH and KH where you want it.


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## Doyoulikefishsticks (Jan 10, 2013)

Thanks for all the information. I'll do a water change asap and turn that filter back on lol...


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## Doyoulikefishsticks (Jan 10, 2013)

Okay, if anybody is interested I did about a 15 gallon water change (Technically I didn't remove 15 gallons, but I put 15 in, probably took out about 8-9) Anyway, I tried the mixture of using baking soda, epsom salt, and sea salt.

In a 5 gallon jar I added the following proportions:

1/4 tsp Baking Soda
1/4 tsp Epsom Salt
1/4 tsp Sea Salt

My tap water originally had a KH of 6 drops (107.4 ppm) after adding the salts etc, it went up to 9 drops (161.1ppm)

I added 10 gallons of the above mix to the tank, and after about 5 min tested the tank water KH and got NO difference in its reading (Tank was low at KH of 4 drops / 71.6ppm) There was probably a small difference but not enough to be measured by the solution.

Anyway, then I tried a new mix of salts/soda in 5 gallon jug:

1/2 tsp Baking Soda
1/2 tsp Epsom Salt
1/4 tsp Sea Salt

The KH came out to be 12 drops (214.8ppm) for this mix. I then added it to the tank, tested the water and got 5 drops (89.5ppm)

SO, after all that only a 17.9ppm difference. I know 5 drops is still low for these fish (most of them) so perhaps I'll add more baking soda and epsom salt to the tank directly today, and maybe more tomorrow.


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## testeve (Sep 17, 2012)

Great work doing all that testing and adding small amounts slowly! Just remember that the Epsom salt and sea salt affect the GH not the KH and it will remain in the water and will not evaporate. So once you get to the GH you want you will only need to add small amounts to replace what is removed during the water change. As for the baking soda, that affects the KH. KH will probably lower between the water changes, and may need more replacement.
Bottom line, keep doing what you are doing and testing before, during and after water changes and you will eventually figure out a schedule that will help you maintain your desired parameters.


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## Doyoulikefishsticks (Jan 10, 2013)

Oh, ****. I thought the other salts would help in raising KH as well...Whoops. Yeah well my GH is over 300...So, I guess I should only add baking soda at this point to increase KH. Thanks for letting me know (I'm sure someone else mentioned it, but I forgot already)

Just a quick question. In a book I have about fish health it says to add calcium carbonate to increase KH. Has anybody tried dissolving TUMS in water and adding it to your tank? Sorry if it sounds silly, but TUMS has 500mg calcium carbonate per tablet. The ones I bought have these other things as inactive ingredients: sucrose, corn starch, talc, mineral oil, natural flavor, sodium polyphosphate. Any of this stuff bad for the fish?


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

You can buy calcium carbonate or calcium citrate powder online or in most health/vitamin sections of drug stores. Crushed limestone also works. The calcium citrate is a bit more soluable than carbonate. http://www.chelonia.org/articles/waterchemistry.htm


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Doyoulikefishsticks said:


> The ones I bought have these other things as inactive ingredients: sucrose, corn starch, talc, mineral oil, natural flavor, sodium polyphosphate. Any of this stuff bad for the fish?


Sounds bad to me.


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## testeve (Sep 17, 2012)

DJRansome said:


> Doyoulikefishsticks said:
> 
> 
> > The ones I bought have these other things as inactive ingredients: sucrose, corn starch, talc, mineral oil, natural flavor, sodium polyphosphate. Any of this stuff bad for the fish?
> ...


Sounds bad to me too! I wouldn't use the tums.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Point is calcium carbonate is very hard to dissolve. I dunno why you do not just use Baking soda/Sodium bicarbonate. After all its only the KH you need to boost, your GH and salinity is aready fine and boosting it prob counter productive.

If your KH is less than 3 deg/drops yep do not raise KH fast as the pH will shoot up. But as its already over 3 you can booste it without much bad effects on your fish (unless you have free ammonia or nitrite in the water.)
This link should help.
http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/calKH.asp

But agree its the fish mix, thats the main problem.


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