# Variants of Ectodus descampsi? (with pics)



## Azrider

I noticed in the profile section of the site there are two variants Ectodus listed. They are Ectodus descampsi, and Ectodus sp. â€œDescampsi North.â€


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## Azrider

Anyone? I know a few other people keep these guys.


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## Number6

I'm going to head down to the basement and start trying to get a good recent shot of a male. 
I have an old photo though that should at least keep us going on the discussion for tonight. 









I believe I have species North.

The thing that I notice most is where the spot is located on your fish... notice my males spot is further back? You have to compare to the high point of the fin and your males spot is partly in that high part... mine is not.


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## Azrider

Are there physical diffrences as well? I know that there are a lot of Xenotilapia's that also look similar. At the ACA convention, I saw one that I mistook for descampsi, as it was very similar with a double spot on the top fin. (In my defence, they were very stressed juviniles.) I know it takes more than diffrerent coloring to get clasified as a diffrent species.

As I am sure you have seen as well, it is very difficult to get a picture of this fish that shows it's colors well. (Don't ask how many pictures I took yesterday to get those six.) Do the species North have the yellow along the edge of the dorsal and anal fins, and along the front of the caudal fin?

I would love to see a picture where you can make out the ventral fins better as well. It almost looks like your fish has more rounded fins than mine. Do they have the same coloring on the edge?


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## Number6

they are ridiculously hard to get a good shot of... :roll: LOL 
I am not happy with any of the ones I took tonight... I'll try again in the morning once there's some sunlight coming in the room!


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## Alleycat

I took some pictures of mine, and I'd be embarrassed to show them... I really need to get out the windex! I have the "main" variety too, but what I can't tell is, their sex! Anyone know of a way to tell them apart?

Thanks


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## Number6

oh that's easy to tell gender. 
To borrow a pic from AZrider... 









notice the male in front and above him is a female (following another male)? smaller spot, without the vibrant halo (may have faint halo) is your gal.

Hope that helps


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## Azrider

These guys are really hard to get pictures of. I have also had a hard time sexing them. I belive I actually only have one female. She is in the picture above on the right. I only know for sure she is a female because she is holding. As they get larger, the males seem to develop a little more blue and yellow coloration, and have color on the tail, anal fin and ventral fins, but the sub dominate ones don't display so it is really hard to tell. I have had this question on and off, so am glad some one else mentioned it.


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## markw

I currently keep the variant with the blue dot on the dorsal. I do not know any specific name for it either, except that I have seen decampsi with a yellow dot. I know some buyers recently inquired about the same difference. They did not want the yellow dot variant. Seems unusual that so little is published about this great fish.


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## Number6

markw, glad you popped in. 

I bought my Ectodus fry off Mark before he moved to Ottawa... they are still swimming merrily in my tank and another mom is in a nursery tank preparing to spit as we speak.

i was staring at my Ectodus male in detail last night and I wish I could get a decent pic. The blue halo/black spot is now more like Azrider's pics... so perhaps we have the same variant.

I will have to see what I can dig up about a yellow spot variety. Interesting...


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## Azrider

Pics! Pics! Pics! Please?


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## CSchmidt

My dreams have come true. A discussion on Ectodus descampsii my favorite fish.

I have 5 fish 3M/2F (I hope). Mine look a lot like Azrider's because well I got them from him. My females have a very faint dot on there dorsal fin but when they are chasing the others away it gets more pleasant then goes back to normal. They are the smaller out of this group and tend to get out of the males way. I will post some pictures of my 5 tonight (hopefully).

I would like to see if we can get some good information to maybe start a species article on there profile page. If that is all possible. I think that would be cool because a lot is unknown about this beautiful fish.

Thanks Adam for starting this thread.

Chris.


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## Azrider

Article in progress. This is reasearch!


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## CSchmidt

Well something weird happen to me today that I wasn't aware of with this species. I had 2 guys come over that wanted to buy some fish. So I had some ruby red peacocks in with the tangs in my 53 gallon. I went to get the ruby reds out with a net and one of the Ectodus descampsii I think it was one of the females dart under the sand like a Fossorochromis rostratus (sand diver). Then after the danger had pass it swam out of the sand. It was pretty cool to see. I didn't know that they did that. I wish I had a camera at the time but no luck.

Thanks for your time.
Chris.


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## Number6

I've frequently encountered the sand diving trick. Makes them very hard to catch during the day. 
I've taken to catching fish at night with a flashlight. Works like a charm.

I still can't get a decent pic of the male... he knows that I'm pointing the camera at him and he wants nothing to do with the camera... sigh.

On a more positive note, found this sight this morning in the nursery tank









Fry were spat today, Oct 24th and she began holding on Oct. 2 (definate on date)... so 22 days holding at 78F for the temp.

She spat 11 fry, though I think she may have a couple more in her mouth.. it's still bulging a bit.

Other broods were an average of 12 fry.

My fish are 3 inches in length so I'm sure the brood might be higher if these fish had reached 4 inches...


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## CSchmidt

Congratulations Number6,

I'm still waiting for mine to spawn. Took out all the peacocks that were in there with them. So no distractions for them. I would like to get a group of Cyps for that tank. I have the room now.

Chris.


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## Azrider

Awesome, number6! I just sent all my fry to Chicago, so I can't put any pics up right now. T

he last time I tore down a tank with decampsi in it, I actually had to run a net through the sand to find all the fish. It was kind of funny.


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## markw

Number6, Glad to hear you've had good luck with those guys. They are a great fish and unfortunately there really isn't that much available about them. I wrote an article several years ago about them, and nobody seemed interested at the time to print it. Maybe I'll resurrect it and update it a bit. Their ability to bury themselves is unbelievable until you witness it. They can disappear into 2" of silica sand so fast, and even when you try and uncover them they are able to evade so well. Their snout is very hard to the touch, and their ability to swim so fast to plunge into the sand is incredible given their size. 
I sent a pm about the fry to you, so please have a look.
markw


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## Number6

I did find some more info (not much) but it points to a few things...

The Decampsi with yellow is found in Ndole Bay, and is often referred to as E.decampsii "Ndole"

I don't speak the language so I was unable to register on the only site that appears to have photos of both fish...

http://www.zoopet.com/fiskar/fisk_resul ... &pageno=24

Looking at the thumbnails is still worth it as the differences are obvious.

Ad Konings book, Back to Nature, Guide to Tanganyika cichlids shows photos of Ectodus from the North on page 77 from Burundi and the fish also appears elongated, and far less yellow in any fins.

The pic of the male at Namansi shows more yellow and Ad mentions that the Ectodus in the South have the yellow in the finnage.

As for which variant is the "true" E.decampsi... I guess that is up to the reader. The originally described species (Boulenger, 1898) was only recorded as "Tanganyika" so we have no idea if it was the Southern or Northern variant...

so you can either say the "ndole" is the true decampsii and the non-yellow is the "sp. North", or you can say the Northern variant is the real fish (As Mark's buyers seemed to feel) and that the "ndole" is the sub-species.

I finally got a few half way decent photos... after about 200 photos...

male:









male and female:









I'd say I have the Northern type... agree? disagree?


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## CSchmidt

So the female is the larger of the two? It has a faint halo but not as much as the male. Out of the 2 females I have (I think) one has no halo and a faint spot and the other has more of a halo then a spot. I guess I will no for sure is when they mate. Until then time will tell.

Chris.


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## Number6

the female is just a bit closer to the camera. She's the exact same size as the male in that photo.

The female's spot and halo is there, it's just a much more subtle appearance and can sometimes appear as nothing more than a small black dot (about 1/8 as large as the male's spot).

Both males and females get the usual Ectodini stress spots on their sides (camera seems to stress them enough to make the spots show  )

It is very hard to tell gender and batches of fry are ridiculously male heavy. In 12 fry, I am pretty sure that only 3 out of 12 were females... yikes!


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## Azrider

As far as what see looking at the photos, yours don't seem to have the yellow along the edges of the fins. Is that true, or just the camera washing them out? The pics also show the caudal, anal, and ventral fins as not having color. Is that right?

I am still not clear on the yellow, as far as where or how much there should be for the diffrent collection points.


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## Azrider

So a few questions for those who have kept them:
1) At what size did they start breeding?
2) Aggression levels with conspecifics? Tank mates?
3) Challenges or tips to help them spawn?
4) Feeding?
5) What you would recommend for tank size and set up?
6) What size group should they be kept in?

My answers below-
1) At what size did they start breeding? _at about 3 inches for the male, 2.5 for the female._
2) Aggression levels with conspecifics? Tank mates? _Males do not seem to inflict a lot of damage on each other, but will relentlessly chase other males. I actually had one jump from the tank to get away. For the most part, other fish are ignored, except while spawning. Then the male will then chase them to corners of the tank._
3) Challenges or tips to help them spawn? _I set up some fist sized rocks in the sandy area to give the fish something to defend. Immediately, I had two separate bowers, and a spawn within a week._
4) Feeding? _High quality flake and pellets, around 35% protein, and supplemental feedings of Baby Brine Shrimp, Misys Shrimp, and Cyclops._
5) What you would recommend for tank size and set up? _As large a tank as possible, with four feet being the minimum. As much open sandy space as possible, with a few stones to divide territories._
6) What size group should they be kept in? _I had a group of 14 in a 4 foot tank, and felt it was too much. I reduced the size of the group down to 6. I began having more aggression problems, and was then down to four fish. I added two more, and some dithers of similar coloring, and this seems to be helping. I will be keeping my next spawns, or trying to get more. I am still not sure of my sex ratios._


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## CSchmidt

Sorry for the late response.

1) At what size did they start breeding? Mine have yet to spawn. 
2) Aggression levels with con specifics? Tank mates? A lot of chasing around with the males. Some chase with other fish only when they gat to close. I have them with 4 julies and no problems. 
3) Challenges or tips to help them spawn? I think mine are still to young to breed. I am feeding some frozen Mysis shrimp. 
4) Feeding? Flake and frozen Mysis shrimp. 
5) What you would recommend for tank size and set up? I have them in a 53 gallon tank with no problems so far. 
6) What size group should they be kept in? I would say 2M/6F.

I hope this helps some how.

Chris.


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## Number6

Azrider said:


> As far as what see looking at the photos, yours don't seem to have the yellow along the edges of the fins.


 some yellow appears on the males fins while courting, but dissappears after spawning. At first I thought this was a sign of improper care... but he can turn that vibrancy on and off at will so I quit worrying about water quality and figured it was normal.



Azrider said:


> I am still not clear on the yellow, as far as where or how much there should be for the diffrent collection points.


 This is a widespread fish so I'm sure that he yellow is more of a gradual thing rather there/not there at all.

) At what size did they start breeding? 3"
2) Aggression levels with con specifics? Tank mates? A lot of chasing around with the males. 
3) Challenges or tips to help them spawn? Extra food, and then any radical change to the tank... new fish, new rock, remove a rock, etc.

4) Feeding? NLS exclusively.
5) What you would recommend for tank size and set up? Minimum is a 4ft tank, though longer is recommended. 5ft has been ideal. 
6) What size group should they be kept in? I can't say as my group was so male heavy that I only have 2 females... I currently breed them as a trio.


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## Azrider

Thought I would share. I hosted a meeting of the Planted Tank club in Phoenix at my house this weekend. (http://aape.naturalaquariums.com/forum/) There were a few people there with really nice cameras, and one of them got this shot.


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## Alleycat

WOW !!!!!!!!!!! What an awesome shot !!

So it's the camera and not the person taking the pics that make them so good.... eh ??


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## Azrider

No, I give the person taking the picture full credit for this shot.


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## riftlakespecialties

Here is my 2 cents....

1) At what size did they start breeding? Have had them breeding at 2.25" but dont hold to term, wild ones 3.5" nice spawns of 35-40...
2) Aggression levels with conspecifics? Tank mates? Can be kept with Cyps but usually do species only.. 
3) Challenges or tips to help them spawn? Sand and water..
4) Feeding? When younger live baby brine, flake after that..
5) What you would recommend for tank size and set up? 40gal no problem, if you want to make it look pretty larger tank..
6) What size group should they be kept in? 2 males and as many females that can fit.

In most cases I have noticed that the females are larger than the males..

There are two known basic variants, the one from Ndole has allot more yellow than most..


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## geoff_tropheus

I really enjoy reading this thread. After 10 years of keeping just Tropheus and Petro's, I want to try a new Tanganyikan and this was the one I have picked.

Thanks for all this information.

My plan is to try a 4ft 75 gallon with about 12-15 of these guys. At this point, my questions are:

1. What pH are you keeping this fish, and what waterchange schedule do you have?
2. What is the recomended depth of sand for these guys you would keep? Pool Filter sand OK, or is something more fine needed? The filtration will be canisters.
3. Flake food and NLS pellets ok or is there a better suggestion?
4. Is 4" the max size of the fish or does it get larger than that?
5. Do they open swim any, or are they 90% on bottom?
6. What type of lighting are you using?

Thanks for your responses...

Geoff


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## Azrider

geoff_tropheus said:


> 1. What pH are you keeping this fish, and what waterchange schedule do you have?
> 2. What is the recomended depth of sand for these guys you would keep? Pool Filter sand OK, or is something more fine needed? The filtration will be canisters.
> 3. Flake food and NLS pellets ok or is there a better suggestion?
> 4. Is 4" the max size of the fish or does it get larger than that?
> 5. Do they open swim any, or are they 90% on bottom?
> 6. What type of lighting are you using?


1. My PH is about 8.2, which is Phoenix tap water. Like most tangs, I think they need a higher PH, but consistancy is important as wel. I do a 50-70% waterchange once a week.
2. I have them in Home Depot play sand. I had them in a courser sand, but they did not display as much of the great behavior.
3. I feed flake and pellets, along with frozen mysis and brine shrimp occasionaly.
4. My largest male is just under 4 inches, and I have had him over a year now.
5. They are all over the tank. They will be in the rocks, midwater, and on the sand. (And in the sand when you try to catch them.) 
6. I have them in a 55 with a single tube 32 watt bulb with a good reflector.

Good luck with them. To date, they are the coolest tang I have kept, including my Cyphos!


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## geoff_tropheus

I got 12 of these and now am down to 10.

I was feeding NLS and I think it was a bit too much for them. So, I am cutting back on that for them, and feeding more flake food.

I am going to be putting these guys in their own tank soon with a sand bottom, and really hope to see them like this.

Thanks,

Geoff


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## silvciv888

to bump this thread up again. my ED's have just spawned finally. its the female's first shot at this. for first-timers, is it better to let them be in my community tank to minimize stress or do u guys separate rite away?

tank is 55G
temp is roughly 80
fine aragonite sand substrate


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## CSchmidt

Leave her in the main tank until she is about to spit (about 2 weeks). You will know when by the size of her mouth. You will be able to see little eyes in her mouth cavity.

I made the mistake of moving my female to a 10 gallon tank to find the eggs on the bottom of the tank the next morning. So leave her alone.

Congrats on the new additions.

Thanks.
Chris.


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## silvciv888

well. the female spat after only holding for 2 days.


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## Qaddiction

I recently aquired an adult group of Descampsi. Three weeks after placing them in my tank I had 1 female holding. I left her in the main tank to hold. On the 21st day I was going to net her out to strip her and as soon as the net touched the water she spat all of the fry. I quickly netted them up and placed them in their own 10 gallon tank. I'm gussing somewhere close to 30 fry. I lost 10 within the first week or so, but they seemed to be doing alright now. That was about a month ago. I believe the same female to be holding again as of March 31. Looks like I'll have another batch in 21 days! Right now I have 10 adults in a 55 gallon tank with 4 juvinile cyps. It was supposed to be a short term tank until I could move them to a 120, but now I'm thinking I shouldn't mess with success. Todd.


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## Qaddiction

I feed my Descampsi NLS 1mm pellets and occasional freeze dried Cyclopeeze.


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## Azrider

I know that with the young females I had, they didn't hold well the first two times they spawned. I would say perhaps it is just inexperince. After the first few attempts, Mine were mostly successful. I would usally let them hold for about 2 weeks, as they were easier to strip at that stage, and the female could get back to eating sooner. They are a pretty awesome fish! Any pictures?


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## jasonj

just got my group of 6 descampsi 2 days ago. do u guys keep them with dithers? theyre just stayin in one corner right now...


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## greenbirds

Does anyone know how these fish do in a community setting? I'm looking at creating a rock dweller setup with some open sand in the middle between 2 rock piles. 6 foot tank with calvus, julies, cyps.


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## Azrider

I have kept them with Paracyps, Julies, and Neolamps in a four foot 55 gallon. They were healthy and spawned for me.


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## jtranscriptus

How many did you keep in that 55 gallon? I'm thinking about getting a group of 6.


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## greenbirds

Thanks for the info, Azrider. I'm aiming to keep 5-7 in a 6ft tank with rockdwellers + cyps, so that is encouraging :thumb:


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## Azrider

I had a group of about 7 in the 55 gallon. It was overcrowed. I don't have them anymore, but would love to see some pictures of other's set ups and fish.


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## armthehomeless

Here are a couple pictures of the fish sold to me as Ectodus sp. "North". I have become very intrigued by these fish as well. My males are digging pits all across the tank.


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## greenbirds

Thanks for the photos, nice fish.


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