# newbie wants advice on brichardi



## TKC747 (Dec 5, 2008)

I am considering *neolamprologus brichardi *species only tank rather than demasoni and yellow lab because I won't need a grow out tank (is this true?)

I read an article that says that you should buy 6 brichardi juveniles and wait for two to pair up and get rid of the other four. I will be doing my first serious cichlid tank in a 55 gallon. I basically want to know all about *brichardi* and how to breed them and raise the fry. _*Let me start with two questions:*_
1. At what size do they start to pair off? If I buy them at my fish store and some have paired off already, do they ever mate with another male/female once they are separated?

2. Can I keep other brichardi with the mated pair or do I have to leave the whole tank for the mated pair and euthanize unwanted brichardi? Can I have multiple mating pairs of brichardi in a 55 gallon tank together and start two colonies? (I would rather not but I may not want to kill the non mated brichardi)

Any info you have including webpages (urls) and book articles and experiencee will be welcome

Thanks


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I have not read that Brichardi "divorces" are common. (It is common for example, with julidochromis.) So if you do not buy 6 juveniles and wait for them to pair up, then try to buy an adult "proven" pair. Proven means they have produced fry together. Proven pairs will cost more.

If you get 6 juveniles and let them pair up, you don't have to kill the extra four, just take them to your LFS for store credit (call first). A good LFS that handles cichlids will take them, and the going rate is about 1/3 the price for which they can sell the fish.

If you don't remove the extras, the original pair will kill them for you.  But once they have the tank to themselves, they will fill the tank with generations of fry, and tolerate their own descendants. Until the tank becomes so full that it cannot support the number of fish...and then mysterious disappearances will occur.


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## Multies (Mar 9, 2007)

If this is your first time dealing with very territorial fish and cichlids, then I wouldnt buy proven pairs. I purchased a wc pair a few years ago and the bond broke. It was a total disaster. although I did get them back. They usually start to pair off at around 2inches.

Finding Brichardi shouldn't be too hard. People give them away sometimes.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

my lfs doesn't sell small small fish, but thebrichardi are usually under 2 inches, so maybe i'd be safe buying them, i know this isn't my post but i am starting to become addicted with all the brichardi talk lately


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

I have been dying to do this exact set up with Pulchers (Daffodil Brichardis) as soon as I can find some around.

I can only second the advice given except to add that if you add involved rock work stretching the leng of the tank and at least half wAy up it, you will be entertained by reefy look, and especially, the insanely, complicated yet organized family dynamic they set up.

They're a bit like very intelligent ants! They have casts and ranks and stations. So cool. Good Luck. I have heard that some target fish help to instigate breeding and bonding but never tried that when I had them.

Also, if you haven't heard of N. Pulcher (An even better looking Brichardi IMO) than go to profiles and check them out. The latest studies are now actually saying that they're just a variant of Brichardi so they are, behaviorally, the same in every way. If you do go that route, do your homework on id because many LFS's unfortunately sell N. Helianthus (The Satan of the Brichardi complex! lol!) as pulcher occasionally. Although you wouldn't have many problems in a species tank with either, Helianthus males are not the "Family men" brichardi are. HTH


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## alexrex20 (Aug 26, 2005)

helianthus are easily distinguishable from the rest of the brichardi complex; just research them first. savoryi has a meaner temperament than helianthus.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i was wondering if the n pulchers were anyhting like brichardi because i too like the way they look a lot more than the brichardi


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## alexrex20 (Aug 26, 2005)

ALL species of the brichardi complex are mean little buggers. ALL OF THEM.


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## TKC747 (Dec 5, 2008)

Thanks everyone, here's a couple more questions.
1. What are the differences among the so called brichardi complex?
2. I wanted to be a responsible breeder, if you get two that are different sub species, would those be considered hybrids?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Their fry would be considered hybrids. Their care and beharior is similar, just their appearance is different. Have a look at the profiles. :thumb:


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## TKC747 (Dec 5, 2008)

> Their fry would be considered hybrids. Their care and beharior is similar, just their appearance is different. Have a look at the profiles


so neolamprologus pulcher, neolamprologus helianthus, are all _different_ members of the so called _*brichardi complex *_but are different species amongst the so called _*brichardi complex*_?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

you're kinda askig the same question twice

brichardi complex is a generalization about a certain set of neo's that have similar habitats, temperments and behaviors, each species within them differs in colors and body structure, just make sure that when you buy them you guy the same ones, don't buy two different types


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## TKC747 (Dec 5, 2008)

ok thanks sorry about the confusion  just worried about hybrids!


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

the way to avoid hybrids is to not have two different frish in the same tank that will breed, if you mix fish they will either have hybrids or they won't breed at all, those are the options, so like i said you start with two idnetical types of fish of two sexes you can never have hybrids


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

N. Pulcher is being recognized as the exact same fish as N. Brichardi thus their behavior is not just similar, it's the same. They're obviously different, color only though. Science is now considering them variants. For example, A. Calvus White and A. Calvus Black are genetically the same species but are color variants from one another.

I believe Variant Hybrids are still hybrids however. And it's true, I can tell Helianthus from Brichardi, however someone new to Brichardi type fish in general like CJ may want to keep an eye out for LFS mis-labels. It wouldn't be the first time an LFS was wrong! :lol:

Also, Savoryi are Super mean you're right! Although Cygnus, IMO, is the meanest BC fish I've ever seen.

I had 2, 2 inch Juvis tear apart 2, 4 inch electric yellows (I got the malawis from a friend who put them in a fry tank of mine so he wouldn't have to "baby" the babies anymore while I was out of town!  ). I later put the Cygnus in the same tank as the yellows temporarily as I was planning to sell them (due to their grumpiness), and I was thinking surely yellows can handle them, but nope they were both dead in a day and a half but that's a whole other thread


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## Multies (Mar 9, 2007)

The Pulchers are not different only be colour, The brichardi has a T looking mark on the sides of the head while pulchers have something like I I but a slanted version like this _I I_

since were on this subject..
Would you consider N. Marunguensis a hybrid?

Their all pretty much the same TKC, Aggressive.. Really aggressive when paired.. And lots of babies. There are small differences like colour, markings, size. Like Savoryi are the only barred brichardi complex and dont really have a lyre tail. N. Marunguensis, gracilis, and i think cygnus do not have face markings like brichardi and pulchers do. It all comes down to what you like most.

Out of all the brichardi's I've kept, I think the Gracilis looked the best.


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## alexrex20 (Aug 26, 2005)

N. marunguensis is not a hybrid. that's why it is its own species.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

if you were to mix a flametail and a red shoulder they would be hybrids even though they are both varients of Aulonocara stuartgranti it's the same thing with the brichardi think of the brichardi part of the name as the stuartgranti part, there are varients past the species name which make them hybrids

like all dogs are canis domesticus, a yellow lab is pure bread and a golden retriever is pure bread, you mix them it's a mutt, and in the fish world mutts aren't as well liked because they can easily infect the blood line and sometimes unnoticable, it's why dogs have papers and you can't sell mutts


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## alexrex20 (Aug 26, 2005)

a Neolamprologus marunguensis is a Neolamprologus marunguensis. it's a pretty simple concept, really. it is not a variant of Neo. brichardi; IT IS ITS OWN *SPECIES*.

next are you going to tell me that a _savoryi_ and _helianthus_ are the same species as _brichardi_, just a different variant?

that's almost as retarded as saying a pygmy chimpanzee (_Pan paniscus_) is a variant of a common chimpanzee (_Pan troglodytes_).


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## TKC747 (Dec 5, 2008)

okay thanks, I was just confused because all these species are labeled "brichardi" complex


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## Multies (Mar 9, 2007)

I believe N.Marunguensis is a Naturally occurring hybrid in the wild.
From the looks of them, I would say a high bodied Brichardi Complex with a N.Gracilis. They seem to have Yellow markings on them similar to the Cygnus.

And no, I'm not going to tell you that a Savoryi and Helianthus are the same species as a brichardi but a closely related cousin. Which is why we call them the Brichardi Complex. They also look similar. 
BY THE WAY, no one said they were the same species.

TKC, Yes they are different species and not variants. Also, If your still confused, just keep on asking until you get it. 
http://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=35 Should be a good read :thumb:

Jacob, I do agree with you there. I think the Pulchers and the Brichardi are now classified as the same species though most people dont like to mix them up. A better example would be between A. Calvus black and white or yellow whatever you want. If you mix a black calvus with a yellow calvus.

Oh, and no need to be rude about the whole thing. Just a discussion. Wouldn't blow my head for it.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i wasn't talking about Neolamprologus marunguensis

i was just trying to help understand why each fish that is called brichardi is different from others

my point is more so that hybrids occur on a varient/common name/color combination/whatever they call each variation of a species level and not just an intra species level

like with the Neolamprologus brichardi (Kapampa) and the Neolamprologus brichardi (Magara)
if those two mate they are just as much a hybrid as Neolamprologus pulcher (Kalambo) with Neolamprologus brichardi (Kapampa)

whatever you call the kapampa and magara parts of the name (which is what i call varients) is what i was refering to

obviously just by species names marunguensis and brichardi are not the same fish

just like canis lupus and canis domesticus are not the same animal


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i actually hadn't read the two posts on this page before mine, sorry for the misunderstanding


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

and the profile section says this about the N.Marunguensis "It is believed that this species originated from a natural crossing of N. splendens and N. gracilis."

meaning those two mated and the species occurs because the offspring mated and continued the pure strain of the original hybrid, the hyrbid had to continually mate with the hybrid to create this strain, and generally you are speaking about all members in that species coming from a single birth from the original mates, and not two different sets of hybrids from two different sets of parents, it couldn't become such a pure species line to have it's own name

which is how most species are made in this world


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## alexrex20 (Aug 26, 2005)

IT IS ITS OWN SPECIES.

maybe you didn't get the memo, but there's this thing called evolution.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

If you do not mix variants you do not have any problem anyway. :wink: 
Species is just a man made label for a far more complicated natural set up. :wink: 
Just now the different variants of pulcher are no longer divided simply (by scientists) into pulcher and brichardi types (genetic studies indicate this had little meaning). Nothing has really changed other than the label some folk choose to call the fish. A variant cross and a species cross is still a hybrid.

Nature can make new species out of natural hybrids. Man made hybrids are not species just types or breeds.


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## alexrex20 (Aug 26, 2005)

marunguensis is naturally occurring.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Can be thought of as part of a hybrid cline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_zone between two species (part of a hybrid swarm) or as a species. I know of no evidence that it does not breed in the wild with either one of the parent species. To be honest knowing it is a natural hybrid only complicates things. Prob simplest but least true to think of it as a species. Label em as a species or natural hybrid swarm, it makes little difference to the fish.


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## alexrex20 (Aug 26, 2005)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

alex man give up you're just starting to sound mean, we understand what you're saying, it's a species, we see that, but a species has to come from some origin and this one just happened to come from first being a hybrid, mutts are naturally occuring but that doesn't mean they aren't hybrids

the only reason it's origin is considered a hybrid is because the two species that made it were named and identified before this species evolved so that makes it a cross breed before it was a species, if it existed before all the fish were discovered and named then it would just be a breed and not a cross, it's kind of confusing, but the difference between an original species and a cross breed is timing, like 24troph said it's all just a name people gave the fish

and if you notice most of these fish are identified by their location, so the only reason most of these fish don't naturally breed in the wild is because they don't live near each other, not because they wouldn't breed if they did

furthermore our concern as hobbyists is to continue and preserve the original strain of fish from the lake itself, so since marunguensis is in the lake and a species in the lake it is a species to the hobby, though scientifically it's origins are that of a cross breed, so the real term hybrid is more so a term used in the hobby to refer to breeds that come from two original breeds from the lake

man made species take the first hybrid fry from the original parents and continue to inbreed those fry to create a new pure strain of a new species, but it will only truely be a species if accepted as such, there are fish that are called their own species, but are man made, but they're not called hybrids, the difference with these and marunguensis is that marunguensis did it themselves in the wild


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## alexrex20 (Aug 26, 2005)

"a species has to come from some origin."

are you implying that brichardi just materialized from thin air, and they are not a hybrid of some previous species?


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## alexrex20 (Aug 26, 2005)

the term "hybrid" has the connotation of man-made and not naturally occurring.

also, you are allowed to use periods (not just commas), in your punctuation.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

sorry i'm not trying to write a paper here i really don't care about punctuation, stop being a jerk

and if you would just read you would see how i said it was about timing, and a species can't be a cross of two species if those two species hadn't been discovered first, marunguensis didn't exist before the parent species existed, the parent animals existed, but were only species after they were discovered and named

hybrid doesn't mean man made, that's where your problem is, hybrids are cross breads, and honestly, just because they cross breed in an aquarium doesnt mean they are man made, they have to naturally be able to breed and want to breed, you can't force them to breed, all the man did was put the two together when they may never encounter each other in nature


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Alex, N. marunguensis is a fish that has been described, and therefore a species, that came to being as a result of a natural hybridization.

The other species have been tested, and have not been found to be resulting from hybridizations, rather from evolution.

I'm not sure what is to get would up about with this, they are simple facts as we know them.


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## alexrex20 (Aug 26, 2005)

the argument was started in reference to mixing two different species in a fish tank, resulting in a hybrid offspring. it was then argued that a marunguensis is already a hybrid. it may have started _naturally_ as a hybrid, but it is indeed its own species, and completely separate from what would result if you crossbred two species in an aquarium scenario.

have a good day.


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

:lol: It never fails! Somebody Says "Hybrid" and the gloves come off! :lol:

It's great, It's always a fire starter when "fish talk" dies down on the forum!


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

alexrex20 said:


> the argument was started in reference to mixing two different species in a fish tank, resulting in a hybrid offspring. it was then argued that a marunguensis is already a hybrid. it may have started _naturally_ as a hybrid, but it is indeed its own species, and completely separate from what would result if you crossbred two species in an aquarium scenario.
> 
> have a good day.


100% Not mean in my opinion just dogmatic. I would love to see evidence that it does not breed in the wild with its original parent species if anyone can find that but it is mainly a arm chair interest. I can not stress enough, though I guess we all agree, whether the natural form is hybrid in its origin or not it is worth keeping away from other types. So many of em hybridize like mad in the aquarium it can be difficult to tell what you are buying if you just accept the sellers word. Not least because I think some of the tribe/s are originally from hybrid origins historically. Wild type hybrids with mans intervention, ooh there are loads of semi natural hybrids caused by merging different "species", are I think well worth keeping away from. Rather hard to tell but as they get better studied hopefully it will be sorted one day. Oops forgot be real cynical about labeling in the LFS there.


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