# Trouble keeping nitrates down



## Chorizo (Nov 25, 2012)

I have a fully cycled tank. It's a 180 gallon tank. Mbunas, syn multi, pleco. I'm not fully stocked and all the fish are juvenile. It has been running now for around 3+months. I am converting all ammonia and nitrites to nitrates. All ammonia and nitrite tests are constantly at 0. Once the tank was cycled I expectedly started climbing on nitrates. I reached about a 40ppm level on nitrates and did a 40gallon water change. 2 days later, nitrate is at 40ppm again, and did another 40 gallon water change. Now yet 2 days later, Im back to 40ppm on nitrates. The water supply does NOT have much nitrate to speak of , so its not coming from the tap. I'm de chlorinating the tap water when I use it and when I test it. I'm following feeding instructions I believe, and don't think I'm overfeeding. I unfortunately didn't go with the sand substrate and had already started with crushed coral gravel. I am syphoning the substrate thoroughly with the tube end. I don't think that detritus is getting stuck in the substrate. I'd like to hear your suggestions on the possible culprit, or perhaps I need to do larger water changes? I don't want to change too much water as to not disturb the parameters drastically. Thanks everyone.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

At 40 ppm with only ~20% water change you'd only expect to reduce your nitrate to 32 ppm - it's not that surprising that it went back up to 40 pretty quickly. You should do a big enough water change to bring it to ~10ppm. That's on the order of a 75% water change (135g) if you want to do it all at once - big job on a 180. I'm not sure how long it took to get to 40ppm but you probably shouldn't have let it get even close to that before doing some pretty decent sized water changes.

Plants and algae help sop up some of that nitrate, but I see lots of water i your future.


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## lilscoots (Mar 13, 2012)

yeah you can figure on at least a 70gallon water change weekly after you get the nitrates back down to around 10ppm (either with one large (120+ gallons) water change or multiple smaller (60+) water changes. If you're not adding buffers, get the temp of the new water as close to the temp of the tank, dechlorinate, and you should be fine...if you are adding buffers you'd have to add the buffers with the new water to keep the salinity/pH/etc the same.


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## Chorizo (Nov 25, 2012)

Thanks for the replies! I think I have added too much substrate. With a 60 gallon water change, I can get the tank half empty and that is a 180g tank. And that is the upper half which is all water. The bottom half has got to have much less water since that's mostly rocks and substrate. Should I remove a good bit of that substrate? Also, I had not cleaned my canister filters since the bio load was newly established and I was afraid of destroying it. I do clean my media with tank water as opposed to tap. I will continue frequent changes until I can bring those nitrates down. I didn't want to cause too frequent changes for the fish. I do buffer and use prime on some water in a bucket equal to the gallons being changed. Then add the rest from the tap. My water heater at the tap only has about 20 gallons worth. I don't have the ability to preheat that much water in a large enough container. By the time Im getting the last 20 g back in , the water is too cold at the tap. Your thoughts?


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

If you heat water in a pan to boiling and pour it in to your buckets from the tap you should be able to get it warm enough to add to the tank without too much work. You also don't have to add back all the water immediately - take the time to do any cleaning of the substrate while waiting for your water to heat up.

Your biofilter isn't what's holding your nitrates high so you don't have to mess with that each water change and at most, just swish it out in a bucket of old tank water to get out the bigger gunk when it gets too dirty. If your nitrates are high, your fish will appreciate the water changes as long as you've kept the chemistry the same each time. Prime will help to protect them from nitrate problems but it's still better to get it down to a reasonable level.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

What are the dimensions of your tank and what is the depth of your substrate?


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## Chorizo (Nov 25, 2012)

Thank you all for the help. Yes , to clarify, I'm using the prime for the removal of chlorine and chloramines from the tap water. I use a python type hose system to return the water from tap to tank. I suppose I could mix up some boiled water in a bucket and add it slowly to help keep the temp right. It's either that or switch out my home water heater for a larger one. The latter doesn't sound as appealing. And the dimensions are 6 ft wide, 2 ft deep, 2ft tall. The substrate is at around 4 inches average. It's crushed coral with most pieces around the size of a pea. I chose it based on some forum articles regarding its buffering capacity. In addition, the set temp on the heaters and the temp reading on my thermometer differ. I have been trusting the glass thermometer. And just adjust the heaters accordingly. Your thoughts on these issues?


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

I have the crushed coral/shells in my tank for the same reason although I know some think it's better to have sand with cichlids - I do have some pools of sand here and there. I also have undergravel filters so it's possible that in your case you're getting gunk stuck in the coral that isn't getting properly filtered. Since you say you aren't over feeding that's less likely.

If it's not your tap water adding extra then it's coming from your fish and what you feed them. I'd get it down to under 10 ppm and then monitor to see how often you're going to have to make water changes - just remember the math - at 20 ppm you're going to have to do a 50% water change to bring levels back to where you want them. Once you figure that out for sure you'll know if you've got some larger problem or not. It isn't unusual to do that much of a change each week.

The good thing about having some plants in your tank is that they use the nitrate and help protect the fish from it building too quickly. Algae growth will also do this so over time your tank may not build up nitrate as quickly just because algae will grow on tank surfaces.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

I like the dimensions of that tank!! I think the 4" deep substrate may either be causing you some problems nor or in the future with food/debris getting trapped. I find that up to 2" deep is usually sufficient to look nice and still permit the anchoring of plants, whether fake or real. It is also much easier to maintain when doing substrate vacuuming.

As far as the heater setting, I find the glass thermometer more accurate and would depend on it rather than the heater's.

The battle with doing water changes and maintaining the correct incoming water temperature with a python type water changer can be a challenge with a smaller water heater. A 20G water heater is rather small but I don't think you can justify the expense to upgrade. The options would be to do more frequent but smaller changes in one day to allow the water heater to not run out of hot water until you get the nitrates under control.

One other thing to look at is the temperature of your aquarium. What is the temperature in the tank? I find that Mbuna will do just fine between 72°F and 78°F. Your water change temperature can be a couple degrees cooler than the aquarium without causing undue stress to the fish.


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## Chorizo (Nov 25, 2012)

Those are some great suggestions everyone. I'm still learning. I've kept marine tanks before. Somehow I'm finding it more difficult with freshwater. A bigger tank is easier and more forgiving, but everything is a larger job. This is my first cichlid tank, mbunas. I think I'll pull some substrate out, should do it slowly as to not disturb bioload. I'm glad someone else has crushed coral too , I was beginning to feel my decision was in error. Also, I have 2 circulatory pumps, each meant for a 180 . Do you think that is adequate? I had a bubble bar but took it out cause it looked un natural. I'm getting good surface movement , but should I consider an HOB or another. canister? It takes a while after feeding to fully clear up . Thanks to everyone.


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## Chorizo (Nov 25, 2012)

Oh , and the temp in the tank is 78.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

What takes awhile to clear after feeding? When I feed there's nothing left to make the tank look unclear. The fish eat it all and hunt for an hour after for non-existent missed food. I have to work hard to get a few pellets down to the synodotis so he gets some food.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

There is no need to pull the substrate out slowly. You could use a plastic container or you can siphon some out into a pail using a short length of vinyl hose.

What brand & model number are the canister filters you are currently using and what media do you have in them? How do you have them placed in the tank?

Circulation pumps aren't a necessity but can be helpful if you need to move the debris around in your tank so the filters can pick it up better or you need more surface agitation. The type or placement of decor, rocks or plants may also necessitate the use of a circulator.

Just feeding your fish shouldn't cause the water to need clearing up. If it is fine food particles that you are seeing when the fish are fed, it's possible you need a smaller diameter pellet. Too large of a pellet causes the fish to 'mouth' it a few times to break it into smaller pieces and the remaining particles just go to waste and need removal.


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## Chorizo (Nov 25, 2012)

Those have been my thoughts as well. I'm in the process of receiving new food. The pellets are too large. I've ordered some 1mm pellets . I've considered some spirulina flake once a week. , but that is a different subject I suppose. I have 2 xp3 canisters. The set up are as follows: first tray large filter pad, then a smaller tighter filter pad. Second tray 1 bag carbon with some biobstars followed by a tray of ceramic disks. Third and final tray is more bio ceramics and lastly a fine floss polishing pad . How does that setup sound? 
There's one intake on each side in rear of tank about 10 inches in from tank sides. The returns are long spray bars shooting from the sides towards center. I point them up about 40 degrees to agitate that 6 ft span of surface exchange I should take advantage of. I think I'm good on the circulation. I've got them working in a circular cycle. Thanks for your help.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

The media set up seems to be what Rena recommends. If you don't have the owner's manual, here is a link to it from the Marsfishcare website Rena XP Manual


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

Larger water changes are much better than smaller more frequent water changes for controlling nitrates. A 50% water change once a week is going to reduce nitrates more than 3 20% water changes in a week. Also often overlooked is frequent filter media cleaning. I see a lot of people with canisters go 3 months or more before cleaning their filters, that's too long. If you clean all your mechanical media every week with a water change you will see nitrates go down a great deal. All the solid waste trapped in those pads builds up, restricts flow, and sits there dissolving into food for your bacteria. Removing it before it can dissolve means that waste never gets converted to nitrate. Pop the lid on your canister filter at least once a week, and squeeze those sponges out until they run clear water. Don't ring them out, just squeeze them to flush out all the brown muck. It's ok to do it in removed tank water, but I have a well so I rinse mine in fresh water under the faucet.

I'm sure if you do this you will notice a significant drop in nitrates by the second week. My tank is 100g stocked with 36 juvenile mbuna and nitrates at the end of the week are just under 5ppm. When I change and clean my mechanical media after one week it's very dirty.


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## Chorizo (Nov 25, 2012)

Thank you , I have a little more bio than they call for , but can't go wrong with more surface are for our little nitrifying friends


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

I actually have the opposite problem - I can't get a reading for nitrate because the plants suck it all up. I do water changes anyway just figuring that the fish might like some fresh stuff and that there are likely other wastes that accumulate but I really do think plants help a great deal with reducing the accumulation of nitrate.


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## Chorizo (Nov 25, 2012)

Thank you


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## Chorizo (Nov 25, 2012)

I've heard mbuna cichlids will eat up any plants in the aquarium.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

I certainly have bite marks on some but others don't seem to appeal to them at all and are doing fine (so far).


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

It depends on the fish. I've had great luck with Anubias 'nana', Java fern, Cryptocorne 'wendtii' and some others I can't think of right now. The Anubias and Java fern do well attached to rocks and driftwood, a rubber band, cotton thread or a dab of gel superglue will keep them attached until their roots can attach to the surface.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

Ditto above - red sword they like to bite but it grows well enough to keep putting out leaves. Another that genus that is fun is Crinum, Bacopa makes a nice background.


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## Fish on Fire (Dec 13, 2012)

You will have high nitrates in well cycled tanks, it's a natural waste product of the nitrogen cycle in fish tanks because there aren't enough or any of the anaerobic bacteria in your tank that would actually break the nitrate down into Nitrogen and Oxygen. Best way to combat nitrate? Add some pothos plants to the top of your aquarium or in a large HOB without any filter media in it. The Pothos plant will grow easily indoors and will greatly reduce your nitrates as well as help purify your air. It's also way cheaper and esier than investing in a denitrification filtration system. You could try completely aquatic plants but they will not consume nitrates anywhere near as fat as a pothos plant will.


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## Chorizo (Nov 25, 2012)

Thank you all for your help. I'm getting those nitrates down. So how do the mbuna do with pothos plant? I'm afraid they will eat them. Been keeping those canisters clean too. Thanks


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

The Pothos plants aren't submerged in the aquarium, just their roots are.

What procedure are you following when you clean your canisters?


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## Chorizo (Nov 25, 2012)

The plants above the tank sound like a good plan, but can I do this with a wood canopy on the tank? Its in a lobby and must look presentable, and that is the main reason for the canopy on top as it hides the lights and other hardware. How can I do this with the canopy? How do you do it even without a canopy? I guess I don't understand the setup, but are the plants in containers? Can you explain how they are placed to have the roots in the water? Also the cleaning procedure for my canisters are: Once I take the filter apart, I take aquarium water from the water change and put it in a 5 gallon bucket. I then take all the filter sponges, floss, lids for the baskets, and squeeze and shake them in that water to remove as much of the gunk as I can. I've been thinking of placing a small pump in that bucket with a little hose and use it to put some water pressure on the sponges to get them more clean. I don't want to disturb the bacteria in there too much though. I usually only do 1 of the 2 canisters at a time. Thanks everyone.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

You probably won't be able to do Pothos with your particular setup, especially if it is in the lobby. People that use Pothos as a nitrate absorber usually place the roots in a Power filter that hangs on the rear of the tank or in a sump style filter that is located below the tank. I am assuming the tank is located in a professional setting so the visual aspect is important.

Can you post a picture of the aquarium and equipment as it is set up?

It would also be helpful to know the species and quantities of the fish you currently have.

Since you have two XP3 filters and the tank has been in operation for over 3 months, you should be able to clean the filter sponges using a sprayer type device as normally seen with kitchen sinks. This shouldn't be a problem with a chlorinated water supply. Filter floss or fine media pads don't usually clean out very well and should be replaced when performing filter maintenance. As always, alternate cleaning of the canisters so as to impact the good bacteria. They should recolonize quickly in the cleaned filter.

I apologize if I've asked the same questions before or keep repeating my responses.


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

You could try something like wildcaught dutchman's setup, looks pretty presentable to me.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=254012


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## rgr4475 (Mar 19, 2008)

Fish on Fire said:


> You will have high nitrates in well cycled tanks, it's a natural waste product of the nitrogen cycle in fish tanks because there aren't enough or any of the anaerobic bacteria in your tank that would actually break the nitrate down into Nitrogen and Oxygen. Best way to combat nitrate? Add some pothos plants to the top of your aquarium or in a large HOB without any filter media in it. The Pothos plant will grow easily indoors and will greatly reduce your nitrates as well as help purify your air. It's also way cheaper and esier than investing in a denitrification filtration system. You could try completely aquatic plants but they will not consume nitrates anywhere near as fat as a pothos plant will.


I actually just started the pothos plant in the back of one of my HOB's. My tap water has a decent amount of nitrates, and keeping the levels down have been a bear. This is my first try at this, as I moved to a new place, anxious to see how well it does. :fish:


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## Fish on Fire (Dec 13, 2012)

rgr4475 said:


> Fish on Fire said:
> 
> 
> > You will have high nitrates in well cycled tanks, it's a natural waste product of the nitrogen cycle in fish tanks because there aren't enough or any of the anaerobic bacteria in your tank that would actually break the nitrate down into Nitrogen and Oxygen. Best way to combat nitrate? Add some pothos plants to the top of your aquarium or in a large HOB without any filter media in it. The Pothos plant will grow easily indoors and will greatly reduce your nitrates as well as help purify your air. It's also way cheaper and esier than investing in a denitrification filtration system. You could try completely aquatic plants but they will not consume nitrates anywhere near as fat as a pothos plant will.
> ...


Nice, it's basically borrowing from closed aquaponics systems to help improve the quality of the water in the tanks. I just need to improve my solid waste removal filtration as my HOBs do a poor job of stirring solid waste off of the bottom of the tank and into the filters. Love tinkering with stuff on my aquariums, lol.


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