# I'm I at my maximum stocking level or can I take on more??



## srook23 (Feb 21, 2009)

I used to run african cichlids years ago and got out of them and decided to try the Oscar road. I got tired of the oscars and missed my africans and went back.

I was having some aggression issues in my tank (55g) so I was told to "overstock" it. I wasn't sure exactly how many fish it was going to take to overstock it, but I put some more in.

What I have now is:

1-red zebra (5")
1-albino zebra (5")
1-rusty (3")
1-cobalt blue zebra (4")
1-bumble bee (3")
1-acei (1")
1-mdumbi (3")
1-elongated jewel spot (2")
1-black convict (2")
1-yellow lab (3")
1-juhanni (2")
1-kenyi (1")
6-silver dollars (wife wanted a little "school" in the tank) (these are all ranging from 3-5")

I also have one baby Jack Dempsey right now that I'm keeping in my tank for a friend. He bought it and immediately lost his tank (long story) and didn't have a place to keep him. I have actually considered keeping him permenant because he's getting along great with the africans.

So in total that gives me about 12 africans, 6 silver dollars, and one little 1.5" jack.

I can say that the aggression in the tank has went down immensely after adding 5 more africans, but it sure looks like a ton of fish in there.

Reason I'm asking is that a guy I work with has a tank and because of personal issues has to get rid of it. He has a auratus (about 4") and a red jewel (think it's about 3") that he's wanting to find a new home for...he's asked me several times to take them on, but I just don't think I have the room for them.

Also I'll put down my filtration before anyone asks. I have a Penguin 400 on one side and a Penguin 150 on the other. I also have UG filters with two 160GPH powerheads. I do 25% water changes weekly and a 50% water change once a month. I have been thinking about going to an XP2-XP3 canister.

Any input would be greatly appreciated. opcorn:


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## srook23 (Feb 21, 2009)

Maybe I should add that the tank is all male. I tried breeding in the past and never had good luck so I decided to try an all male tank. So far it's working out great.


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## CichlidWhisperer (Apr 12, 2008)

A few general comments:

On first look at the stocking list, it seems a little volatile. A lot of the mbuna are very agressive mbuna for that sized tank. They are small still, so that may be why it is working. You never know in situations like this because each fish really is unique. But, I would be on the watch for problems with aggressiveness as some of them mature.

Second issue is a few of your fish are really not the best to have in with mbuna. The convict for one. Mbuna like high pH and very hard water. The convict is a fish that should have middle of the road pH. Also, convicts are very aggressive fish and can easily end up killing all your mbuna when they mature. He is small still, so probably OK for a little while, but I would move him out.

The JD is also a fish that is suited for a pH around 7 and soft to slightly hard water, but definitely not as hard or alkaline as mbuna like.

As far as your specific question, I think you may be able have a higher number of the right mbuna. I have a 46 gallon with 17 mbuna and it does very well. But, I do not have the highly aggressive mbuna that you do, such as your Kenyi, Bumblebee, and Johanni. I would not choose to add a auratus as it is also very aggressive for a tank of your size. The Jewel is a West African fish that does better in a neutral pH and softer water than mbuna. I know some people do mix them and Jewels can tolerate quite extreme water conditions; however, while Jewels are very aggressive fish, they are also rather shy and calm and so can get beat up quite a bit in an active mbuna tank.

So, what to do? I would remove the convict and JD, and not add the Jewel. IMO, I would not choose to add the auratus, but if you really wanted to, you could try it. I would also get a hospital/emergency tank ready because there is a high chance as the fish in your tank mature that you will need to remove some because they are too aggressive, and others because they have gotten beat up and need to recover. When setting up my all-male mbuna tank, I went through a lot of trial and error on fish until I got it to work well. I removed a lot of fish as they got way to aggressive, and to my great surprise, I added a lot more than I expected and it helped in the overall tank dynamic.

Good Luck!


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## kodyboy (Dec 9, 2007)

1-red zebra (5")
1-albino zebra (5")
1-rusty (3")
1-cobalt blue zebra (4")
1-bumble bee (3") get rid of, they get large and very aggressive 
1-acei (1")
1-mdumbi (3") ???
1-elongated jewel spot (2") get quite aggressive, remove
1-black convict (2") not suited to the other fish, remove
1-yellow lab (3")
1-juhanni (2")
1-kenyi (1") get rid off get quite aggressive
Pick 4 of the above remaining species then increase the numbers to six each, 1 male and 5 females (except for the labs, does not matter with them). You could also build the tank around the kenyi if you really like them, but if so I would have one male and 7 female kenyi and thats it.


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## srook23 (Feb 21, 2009)

I'm not sure what the mdumbi is either. When I bought him it was suggested to me. He's a very pretty fish. He's a bluish color and has an orange crest on his head and an orange tipped fin.

I originally put the black convict because I was looking at a friends tank and they had two in it and they seemed to do well and weren't overly aggressive. They were about 5-6". I asked them about it and they didn't even know what the fish was, but said they did fine so I thought maybe it could work out.

So even though the tank is all male am I still going to have aggression problems as they get bigger? The only ones I'm having any problems with right now is the Jack chasing the Acei and Kenyi from time to time (mostly at feeding time). Besides that nobody is really picking on each other.


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## CichlidWhisperer (Apr 12, 2008)

I think you can do an all-male tank. I have definitely noticed a bias on this site against all-male mbuna tanks. I suspect there are a few reasons for this, but mostly because it is a rather difficult tank to get set up in the first place and IMO most people eventually give up. There is a very very good article regarding this in the library. My experience was that it to a lot of patience and many trials of fish that I removed if they did not work. It is not a tank you can simply add fish and water to and make it work. I spent hours watching the fish to really see what was going on and try to get the mix right. Also, I got advice from Dave on which fish would be good to add (yes this is another plug for Dave's Rare Aquarium Fish, but he really did help tremendously and without his help my tank would not be what it is today, and BTW he is the only person I have ever known to predict the sex of fish when they are juvenile and be correct).

In any case, I do not think you should necessarily give up on an all-male tank and simply get breeding groups. You have a great start to an all-male tank and it will just take some watching of the fish to see what will work in the end. Fish are so individual that one of the "more aggressive" ones might be fine in your tank while one of the "less aggressive" ones might cause problems. In general, I would shy away from the Kenyi and Bumblebee. I know people who have the others working in their tanks though.

I think Mdumbi may be Ndumbi. Ndumbi is a location in lake Malawi with a lot of mbuna. Do you think it is a Pseudotropheus sp. â€œred-top ndumbiâ€


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## srook23 (Feb 21, 2009)

Ok, yea. That's it. Funny how one letter can change everything. lol.

I have to say that thusfar it's going very well. I haven't put a ton of effort into the tank to be quite honest, it's just worked thusfar.

I knew in advance the bumble bee was aggressive. I did want some of the more aggressive fish in the tank. So far he has shown no real signs of aggression toward the other fish, but as stated he's still only about 3-4" and has a good bit of growing left to do. I have always loved how quickly and how drastically a BB changes colors and just had to have one. It truly is awesome watching him change from black to striped.

I also knew the Kenyi was very aggressive so I decided to get one extremely small so it could grow up with the other fish. So far so good. If anything he's picked on a little by the Jack and just takes it.

Right now I have the PH right about 8.0, which works great because the tap water here is naturally about 8.2 or so. I have some driftwood and I think it's buffering the PH a little because when I do a water change my PH is 8.2 and after about a day or so it drops to 8.0. I guess I'm lucky in that aspect. When I was doing Oscars I was having to constantly mess with the PH to lower it and our water doesn't seem to want to change no matter what you put in the tank to condition the PH...just another deciding factor in going back to africans.

So basically right now I should just sit back and watch and see how it goes? I've noticed that when I first added the silver dollars they were getting attacked a little and have some nicked up fins, but after they were in there for about a week the other fish started leaving them alone. They all seem to be doing well thusfar.


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## kodyboy (Dec 9, 2007)

I like breeding groups because the fish look more natural and color up more intensely. An all male can definitely work, but it is more effort and teh fish do not look as nice, IMO.


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## srook23 (Feb 21, 2009)

Well, I might possibly add some females later on. I want to upgrade a minimum 150g tank sometime. If I do I'm gonna keep what I have and add some females in there. Think I should be able to fit enough females to keep them ok.


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## mthigpen_02 (Dec 29, 2008)

pH: 7.0 - 8.0 for Convict and pH: 6.0-7.6 for Jewel is why they shouldn't be in the tank where as most Mbuna like 7.6 to 8.6. Other than that you can try having lots of rock for hiding places to curb some aggression. Keep a good eye on your fish and if you start to have problems be ready to take steps to fix the problem, such as medicines, hospital tanks and a willingness to remove over aggressive fish.


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## srook23 (Feb 21, 2009)

If I have to I'll remove some fish. I already know which ones are probably gonna be the problem.

As far as PH goes I don't have much choice on that. Our water is almost impossible to condition for PH. I tried and tried before when I was housing fish that liked a lower PH. I couldn't get the PH lower than 7.8 no matter how much stuff I threw in the tank. It comes out of the faucet at 8.2 and pretty much just stays there.


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## mthigpen_02 (Dec 29, 2008)

Well if you can't get the ph lower then you shouldn't keep fish that like a lower ph than what you can give them. The Convict likes water that you can barely get to and the Jewel likes water way lower than you get, so why keep them?


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## srook23 (Feb 21, 2009)

I'm not a huge believer in the PH (that's just me).

Way I figure is sure these fish "come from" places that have certain PH's. How many of these fish actually come from the wild and are used to that? Probably not many. I know where my fish came from...they came from fish farms that don't really do anything to manage PH.

I actually had a goldfish that I bought as a feeder for an Oscar one time. Threw in a bunch of feeders and he ate them all but that one. He lived in the tank for a couple weeks before he finally was eaten. The PH was about 8.0-8.2 and the temp was about 84.


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## SLIGHTLY STOOPID (Dec 23, 2004)

> I'm I at my maximum stocking level or can I take on more??


A competent fish keeper leaves enough room in the bio load for the unexpected. You never want to stock to the max.


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## mthigpen_02 (Dec 29, 2008)

If your not worried about giving it as close to natural water chemistry as possible why worry about anything? Just double your numbers with as many different fish as possible and have fun watching them until they die. Sure they may die but just think you can have whatever YOU want.


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## srook23 (Feb 21, 2009)

I'm not trying to tick anyone off, I'm just saying I'm not a firm believer in the PH thing.

To me it would kind of be like saying "this person is of a English background and the temperature is such and such there so we should always have the temp at this". IDK. I've never had a fish die because of PH problems and I always keep them about the same PH.

My buddy got divorced years ago. When he left the house to his ex he had a 75g tank. All he had in it at the time was one red tiger and a pleco. His ex never cleaned the tank. Eventually the HOB filter got jammed up and started overflowing on the floor so she unplugged it. When the hurricane came through last year that house got trashed and she called him to come get the aquarium. When we got there the whole aquarium was covered in algae (lid and all). The water was brown like bayou water. Inside the tank was one 5" red tiger and one pleco.

I brought both the fish home and put them in my aquarium. My fish killed the tiger and the pleco is still happily living in my tank.

P.S. his wife told us that she turned the filter off about half a year after he left. They were split up for 3 years when we went and got the tank and fish.

I just think these fish are tougher than letting a little PH put'em down.


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## herny (Nov 30, 2007)

ok maybe but people are allot more adaptable then fish and jewels are one thing but fricken convicts? they dont even come from Africa and just because they are alive doesn't mean they are happy and yea PH for mbuna isn't a big thing maybe but still it can be soft as heck but they wont be happy and you wont get to see there real behavior so really your hurting your self


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## srook23 (Feb 21, 2009)

I think I've got that ndumbi figured out.

http://aquatab.net/_files/Image/clanky/ ... bi-red.jpg

Looks kinda like that fish except mine is a darker blue and the orange is darker and mixes better in with the blue.

When I get a chance I'll try to take a pic of him and post it.


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## josmoloco (Aug 23, 2008)

Wow  This thread has some of the slopiest most uneducated advise ever. First off those who told him to add females ad remove some of the males, he _is_going for an all male tank, not breeding groups. Second is the issue of the convict. In their wild habbitat covicts live in a moderate to high ph environment in central america. In an aquarium they are the most adaptable cichlids and will most likly flourish with the mbuna.


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## srook23 (Feb 21, 2009)

josmoloco said:


> Wow  This thread has some of the slopiest most uneducated advise ever. First off those who told him to add females ad remove some of the males, he _is_going for an all male tank, not breeding groups. Second is the issue of the convict. In their wild habbitat covicts live in a moderate to high ph environment in central america. In an aquarium they are the most adaptable cichlids and will most likly flourish with the mbuna.


Thanks for the info. The only reasons I ever considered putting a convict in my mbuna tank is because #1 I like the convict and #2 I saw another mbuna tank someone had with a bunch of mbunas living happily with 2 convicts in the mix. I asked them about it and they didn't know what the fish were, but liked them so they put them in there. I would have never thought twice about doing it if not for that chance encounter.

And as stated I wanted an all male tank. I didn't want to have to worry about breeding this go round plus I have heard that all male tanks tend to be a little less aggressive, which I thought might allow me to mix it up a little more. So far, so good.


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## mthigpen_02 (Dec 29, 2008)

"One final word: any Lake Malawi cichlids, should be kept just with other Malawi cichlids, not with Oscars, not with convicts, nor with Jewel cichlids. They are certainly NOT community tank fish to be mixed with plecos, angels, pangassius catfish, and all the other horrors that I have seen over the years. A few small Synodontis catfish are acceptable tank mates!"

And as for the all male tank I already offered my advice to be prepared to adjust if necessary.

If you come to a forum asking for advice and don't like to hear what is the norm that most people use then by all means keep the fish the way you would like. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other how you keep your fish, as its your money. I just thought you would like to hear what has worked for most people but it is not a set in stone practice as all fish are different.

Good luck!


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## srook23 (Feb 21, 2009)

Sorry man, wasn't trying to tick anyone off by any means.

I did come asking for advice, but not about the fish I already have. I asked advice about two fish that I might have been adding to the tank. When I listed what I had everyone got off on removing some of the fish I had, but that had nothing to do with my original question.

Anyhow, I'm gonna leave them how they are now. The bumble bee, kenyi, jewel spot, juhanni, etc. seem to be doing great, and aren't showing any real aggression yet. If they start becoming aggressive and attacking other fish I'll definately take your adivce and remove the troublemakers.

I just didn't want anyone to take it as I wasn't taking advice. It's just I didn't really ask if I should remove some of the fish I had and that's the answer I kept getting. :thumb:


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## CichlidWhisperer (Apr 12, 2008)

srook23 said:


> I think I've got that ndumbi figured out.
> 
> http://aquatab.net/_files/Image/clanky/ ... bi-red.jpg
> 
> Looks kinda like that fish except mine is a darker blue and the orange is darker and mixes better in with the blue.


That was the one I was thinking by your description... Really pretty fish!



SLIGHTLY STOOPID said:


> A competent fish keeper leaves enough room in the bio load for the unexpected. You never want to stock to the max.


While in general, this makes sense, Mbuna do better when they are "over-stocked". I agree a fish keeper tries to keep as much options open as possible and make decisions based on trying to allow the potential for the tank to adapt to bioload or whatever unexpected comes. But, a good fish keeper also takes into account the specifics of their fish and maximizes situations to benefit them. Leaving extra room for a potential unexpected bioload can actually have other effects on a mbuna tank. Part of keeping a successful mbuna tank IMO/E is to keep it overstocked and do very frequent water changes while keeping an eye for anything suggesting increased stress on the fish and acting immediately to remedy them. JMO.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

We REALLY need to please help this poster form his All-male tank.

If you would like to argue against the standard all-male overstocked mbuna tank, then feel free but clearly state your intent that you are trying to dissuade the OP from an all-male overstocked tank.

I myself have kept Convicts and Jewels in with mbuna at a pH of 7.6 and all bred quite happily. 
Unorthodox mixing is rule bending, not necessarily rule breaking!

srook23, cichlid whisperer has given you some solid advice... a couple of other posters backed it up well.


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## srook23 (Feb 21, 2009)

I appreciate the good advice.

So really the deciding factor is my bioload.

I changed my filtration yesterday. What I'm running now is:

My UG filter with 2 160gph powerheads
Penguin 400
XP2 canister

I do my 25-30% changes weekly and 50-75% monthly.

I would think this would be more than sufficient for my current bioload.

Given that into consideration, would it be "too much" to add two more cichlids?


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## CichlidWhisperer (Apr 12, 2008)

srook, I think you have great filtration and are doing enough water changes to add at least a couple more. They sound like lucky fish to have you taking care of them.


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## Dave (Feb 9, 2003)

Since the question really appears to be only concerned with the bioload, then it is likely okay. As for your stocking list, if eclectic is your thing then go for it. However, I would not completely discount pH. Most of the fish you have are very adaptable, but there are species that will not tolerate improper water conditions.


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