# Swim bladder issue in Mbuna tank



## dougrhon (Jun 11, 2010)

Hi. I just started my Mbuna tank two weeks ago. I have 24 Mbuna (plus six synodontis cats and one fancy Pleco) in an 80 gallon tank which is fully cycled (One of my two emperor 400's was pre-cycled.) Ammonia is 0 nitrite is 0 nitrate around 5. Ph is around 7.8. I do weekly 50 percent water changes. I ordered all these fish at once. They are unsexed juveniles. In the first week I had the tank I lost two fish. They were both lying on the bottom barely moving so I removed and euthanized them. No real symptoms. I assumed they were weak specimens but now there is one (not even sure exactly what species it is but it is a yellow mbuna with faded stripes, not an electric lab) It is swimming all wobbly. What I mean is that it is swimming around but seems to tilt over onto it's side like it can't stay upright. I was going to move it into quarantine but it shot away when I tried to net it so it is still has strength and energy. Any ideas as to what is going on? Is this swim bladder disease? What could be causing it? There are no external symptoms. I feed the whole tank a morning feeding of "Grow Baby Grow" pellets for herbivorious cichlids and green veggie flakes in the evening. I have not put anything else in the tank food wise.


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## lekshmy biju (Jun 23, 2010)

frozen cooked peas are good, i think
also you can do some google search for the symptom
thanks and your pet get well soon


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## lekshmy biju (Jun 23, 2010)

remove the skin of the peas, mash it and get her to eat it, i think its good for swim bladder disease


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

It's always hard establishing a new tank with new fish- I hope you don't lose anymore. It's hard to say what is wrong, so I'll try to help brainstorm some of the basics...

Water quality issues:

What do you use for dechlorinator?
What type of ammonia test kit do you have, and how old is it?
What is the temperature of the tank?

Fish issues:
Did you get the fish from a reputable source? 
Are there any signs of aggression or chasing in the tank?

Losing two from transport shock isn't surprising, and the third could have been injured during the transport, or by aggression in your tank. We don't have any symptoms that point towards disease yet, so don't start medicating.


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## dougrhon (Jun 11, 2010)

The water is around 80-81 degrees (can't help it do to heat. I normally keep at 78) I use Prime for dechlorinator. I have the liquid test kit. It is not that old. There is definitely no ammonia in the tank. Incidentally I lost another one last night. This one I was able to net because it was basically plodding in the corner. I put it in quarantine and it was dead this morning. The yellow one from last night is still swimming speedily and hiding easily when I approach but basically swims sideways right now. Best as I can see the others appear fine for now. There is a good deal of chasing going on but I have a ton of rocks and hinding and escape spots so the chasees are able to get away no problem. The majority of them are usually out and about. No real violence yet that I can see but these are juveniles.

Someone on another board suggested it could be Malawi bloat. I think I may be overfeeding. I have been using two foods, Grow Baby Grow which has around 40 percent protein and green veggie flakes which are excellent but contain more protein that I would have thought. I have been feeding one in the morning and one in the evening every day since I got them. They usually all gobble it up but I think it might be too much protein. I just ordered Cihclid Excell from Hikari which I understand is lower in protein. I am going to fast the whole tank today. Starting tomorrow I think I am going to really give them just a pinch of food three times a day. And maybe I will fast them once a week. Not counting the one that is swimming erratically I still have 22 juvenile Mbuna which is suppose is more than enough if the rest settle in. I just don't want to lose them one by one until I have none left.

I remember in my other tank I had a big problem last December. I was (I now realize) dramatically overfeeding my Tiger Barb/Rainbow tank, flakes in the morning and frozen meaty food every night. I lost 9 tiger barbs in three weeks before it stablizied. I cut back to flakes once a day and meaty frozen foods twice a week and have not had a loss since.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

I think too many people shout "BLOAT!" when they don't know what's wrong with their fish. You haven't listed a single symptom that would make me think that intestinal infections were present.

Feeding lightly is always a good thing, but I would expect overfeeding to only cause deaths on a long term basis. Too high protein? Maybe- give a less rich food for awhile and see what happens.

If you got these fish from a big box store, or someone who wasn't taking proper care of them, your losses may be from the fish's initial poor health.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

*Swim bladder* 'issues' come from a variety of different causes, not all of them treatable. From what you describe it doesn't sound like a swim bladder thing. Typically what you'll see with swim bladder problems is the fish will either seem to be 'stuck' at the top or the bottom.At the top it may list to one side and when it swims away from the top it can only do so with an all out effort and as soon as it stops trying it pops like a cork back to the surface. If it's stuck at the bottom then its the same thing only in reverse--the fish sinks like dead weight as soon as it stops trying to swim. ( A fish that overeats will also sit on the bottom and have a difficult time swimming)

*Bloat* typically starts with the fish spitting out food and then it stops eating. You may or may not see long stringy white or clear feces. The fish will become lethargic and reclusive. Towards the end you may or may not see the belly area become bloated or sunken. It usually takes about a week from the time you notice the first symptom till death and usually only one or two fish are ill at a time._ This doesn't sound like bloat._

The fish that died last night: what symptoms did you observe in the 24 hours prior to death? When exactly was the last time you saw it eat? When was the last time you saw it swimming normally around the tank? If the fish was eating and swimming normally less than 24 hours ago then it is likely either aggression from another fish or a toxin in the water that killed it.
Do you know what species of mbuna you have and the male/female ratio of the individual species? That's really a key part of putting together a mbuna tank that will be compatible long term. Hiding places only help so much. . .

Food: I think you're right, you're feeding them too much. Try feeding them once a day and give them only as much food as can be consumed in less than a minute.

As triscuit already said, when starting a new tank losing 2-3 fish out of 24 is not unusual. No matter where you get them or how careful you are in getting them established new fish are almost always STRESSED fish and a stressed fish is at risk for diseases that it would normally be immune to. Also: starting a new tank with 24 fish may have overwhelmed your established filter--the beneficial bacteria in that filter is only good for a bio load as large or smaller than what it was previously handling so you should continue to monitor the water parameters daily or every other day for the next month just to make sure.

My advice: cut down on the food, keep monitoring the water parameters and watch the fish very closely for the next few weeks. You want to see that every one of them is eating at every feeding and that all fish are swimming normally.

Robin


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## dougrhon (Jun 11, 2010)

triscuit said:


> I think too many people shout "BLOAT!" when they don't know what's wrong with their fish. You haven't listed a single symptom that would make me think that intestinal infections were present.
> 
> Feeding lightly is always a good thing, but I would expect overfeeding to only cause deaths on a long term basis. Too high protein? Maybe- give a less rich food for awhile and see what happens.
> 
> If you got these fish from a big box store, or someone who wasn't taking proper care of them, your losses may be from the fish's initial poor health.


That actually makes me feel better. They are certainly not from a big box store but from the popular and reliable Blue Grass Aquatics. They are all juveniles and I must assume that some will be weaker than others when you order 27. I still plan to cut back on the feeding because by any measure I do think I have been overfeeding. I will also up the water changes for a while to 50 percent twice a week.


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## dougrhon (Jun 11, 2010)

In response to Robin, Thank you for the response. While this is my first cichlid tank it is not my first tank as I indicated above. I have never dealt with herbivores before, however. I purchased these fish unsexed from blue grass aquatics as juveniles with the understanding that at some point the ratio might be improper and a concern. I also have 6 synodotis catfish with the understanding that they will likely consume most of any fry that are produced and any that live will never leave the tank so hybrids are not a huge concern. I am prepared for aggression issues but don't really think they are arising yet except that some of the fish may be stressed from being chased. I know which fish they sold me but cannot tell each one individually (I know about ten of them) I am aware of the issue with the bio filter. It was a huge concern of mine and I have been monitoring the water for ammonia and nitrite daily. The filter came off of a tank thad had a signficantly bigger bio load than this so it is not a surprise that it is handling the ammonia/nitrite load effectively.

Regarding behavior, I can say that I noticed no symptoms from this fish earlier. I generally observe them for a number of minutes each day. Generally there is always a swarm in the front of the tank with some swimming in and out of the rocks. While I have never been able to count all of them at once I have been able to consistently count 20 or more and they seem to be behaving normally. All the cichlids prior to yesterday seem to be eating. Ocassionally I notice one swimming up to a granule or flake sinking down and then turning away but then they would eat something else. Because of the yellow one swimming erratically I watched the tank carefully in the early evening. Nothing else seemed to be having a problem. As soon as I got down to the tank at around 11:30 I knew there was something wrong with this other one because it was on the bottom, not swimming around like normal and when another fish came near it didn't move really. Sure enough I was able to net it up.

I am going to fast them entirely today. As far as feeding going forward, I have heard that feeding more often can reduce tank aggression so this is why I would want to do it. My other tanks I only feed once per day. I think I will just put in a tiny pinch. Now I am basically putting in two decent sized pinches which I am sure is way to much, especially as I am doing it twice a day.

Thanks again. I am glad I found this forum.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

It sounds like you're doing everything you can, and bought fish from a reputable source. As Robin said, there's just some fish that are not going to survive the transport/acclimation stress no matter how robust they started out.

Good luck- and let us know how it goes. :thumb:


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## dougrhon (Jun 11, 2010)

The fish remains exactly as I left it. Swimming wobbly but otherwise alert, able to avoid danger and eating (I fed small amount just to see if it and others would feed)


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## dougrhon (Jun 11, 2010)

Another day and the fish actually seems BETTER. He is barely wobbling now and looks just like all the others. No other deaths or problems a day after my big water change.


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