# Angels and Electric Blue Jack Dempsey



## scarhbar (Feb 17, 2011)

Right now, I have a 55 gallon tank, that has a good number a plants. I plan on eventually doing all plants, and many of them!

The current stock includes 4 Angels, 1 Bristlenose Pleco, and a Neurotic Peacock Eel. They all get a long very well 

The Angels are only 2" TL, so they have some growing to do. But while they still have some room to grow, I wanted to add an Electric Blue Jack Dempsey. Not only are they more docile than the normal strain, but they leave plants alone! At least from what I've seen. Also, I could get him free from a family member, so that is what I am most happy about. He is pretty small, maybe 1.5". So I don't think he'd boss the Angels around too much, and the Angels seems to ignore all the fish I put in the tank.

What do you guys think? I can't see why I wouldn't add one. My plants benefit from the fish poo, and the fish love the thick coverage. So I don't think an EBJD would be bad on the bioload. They also probably wouldn't fight with my Angels, right?


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

2 words: *BAD. IDEA.* For one thing, the angels are probably going to eventually pair off, which means they'll need quite a bit of territory. And another, the JD gets 8 inches on average, and it isn't rare to see one hit 10". I doubt there is enough room in there for all that. Plus, even if an EBJD isn't as nasty, it's still a JD and they can get mean. At the very least I'd say your angels fins are going to be in trouble. If you want something small, cheap, and interesting, try a dwarf cichlid, a MUCH better choice by FAR.


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## allierw (Apr 20, 2006)

You just want to grow out the EBJD with the angels, right? Do you already have a tank in mind where he would go when he is bigger? If so, I think it might be OK. The angels and probably the JD will grow fairly quickly, so definitely have a backup plan. I don't think it would work out long term, though.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

I just wonder why? This is one of those "pairings" that just seem wrong. Maybe look at Blue acaras (yes, they're my SA/CA cichlid of the day), but I'd be much happier seeing a dwarf acara species kept with Angels.


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## Raylans_girl (Aug 11, 2011)

^ wonder why what? That someone is asking advice because they are interested in a ebjd? Anyways. As someone stated above they will be fine for a while but the jack will grow really fast and once they hit sexual maturity they can get nasty. If you really want one be prepared to set up another tank in the next few months. Ebjd's are beautiful fish. I've raised a few with angels but once they hit the 3" mark I move them before they start getting ideas.


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## scarhbar (Feb 17, 2011)

Ya, I do have a 125 community, he could always move into, but it just seems so...empty with my boring little Angels :/ hmm idk, I will see how he gets!

If they are not compatible for some reason, I could make a little profit off him too


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## Raylans_girl (Aug 11, 2011)

What's in your 125? You could do a firemouth with angels. It doesn't seem there is anything in your 55 that the firemouth would bother (although I don't know much about eels). Or do you have your heart set on a dempsey?


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## scarhbar (Feb 17, 2011)

Ya, I am definitely set on a Dempsey, but sometimes, you gotta be responsible, and say no  and my 125 has a couple of Oscars, 1 Green Terror, and mislabeled Pike. I am full for the most part in my 125 :/

Maybe I will grow the EBJD to the point where he gets too aggressive, and sell him? They are rare around here. But a firemouth does seem possible! They shouldn't tear my plants up?


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## Raylans_girl (Aug 11, 2011)

I've had firemouths, they didn't bother my plants, they did sift through the sand near the roots sometimes though but they never did any damage. I know the dempsey would work with the green terror but I'm not sure about the oscars. EBJD's are rare around here too, believe or not I had to bring a couple fish to the LFS recently and one was a EBJD and they only gave me $8 credit for him. I was kinda mad, because he was nearly 5" long and beautiful and I'm sure they got at least $40 for him.


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## scarhbar (Feb 17, 2011)

Wow! $8 is pretty sad :/ Did you try Craigslist?

When you say "I know the dempsey would work with the green terror but I'm not sure about the oscars" I am a little confused. Whenever I tried putting my Dempsey (normal strain) with my GT, they fought like crazy!

So I had to mix it up. When I put the GT and Oscar together, it was just more fighting, but the Oscar and JD almost ignored each other. Since the JD, and GT both are a blue/green, I think they fought more. But maybe your fish were....both females? haha


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

8 bucks? dang dude... EBJDs at my work place go for 60 bucks  and that's for the little ones... Oddly enough, I don't think I've ever had a problem with a JD and oscars or GTs in the same tank, provided there are tons of hiding spaces and line of sight breaks etc so that they can mark their territories. And for the 55, if it seems empty still, add another couple angels and try and get a pair or two, and also add a school of tetras and some dwarf cichlids; 5-6 bolivian rams would look great, apistos are really cool too.


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

1.5" EBJDs come out of Florida farms at ~$2.5 a piece. Just so you know how much they are marked up.

If one fish not killing the other is your definition of "working", yes, it might work. But I have to agree with DFF on this one. It's going to be such an awkward combination, not to mention they prefer drastically different water parameters.


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## MonteSS (Dec 8, 2008)

Personally I have found FM to be pretty aggresive. Especially since it would be Alpha.

Bolivian Rams, Keyholes, Dwarf Acara, Apistos work well with Angels.

...Bill


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## Raylans_girl (Aug 11, 2011)

MonteSS said:


> Personally I have found FM to be pretty aggresive. Especially since it would be Alpha.
> 
> Bolivian Rams, Keyholes, Dwarf Acara, Apistos work well with Angels.
> 
> ...Bill


They can be aggressive but I have found that never bothered my angels. The ones I had would only bother fish that looked like them, which makes sense. They never looked twice at my angels.


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## Raylans_girl (Aug 11, 2011)

peathenster said:


> 1.5" EBJDs come out of Florida farms at ~$2.5 a piece. Just so you know how much they are marked up.
> 
> If one fish not killing the other is your definition of "working", yes, it might work. But I have to agree with DFF on this one. It's going to be such an awkward combination, not to mention they prefer drastically different water parameters.


True about the water parameters but like I said, mine did fine with angels while they were juveniles, after they reach a certain age is where the aggression comes in. The ones I had were only an inch when I got them, I grew them out and gave them to a friend who had much larger cichlids that were better tankmates, which is why I took them in when they were small, otherwise they would have ended up a snack in his tank.


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## Raylans_girl (Aug 11, 2011)

scarhbar said:


> Wow! $8 is pretty sad :/ Did you try Craigslist?
> 
> When you say "I know the dempsey would work with the green terror but I'm not sure about the oscars" I am a little confused. Whenever I tried putting my Dempsey (normal strain) with my GT, they fought like crazy!
> 
> So I had to mix it up. When I put the GT and Oscar together, it was just more fighting, but the Oscar and JD almost ignored each other. Since the JD, and GT both are a blue/green, I think they fought more. But maybe your fish were....both females? haha


Green terrors are usually good tank mates for dempseys. I've never known anyone to put a dempsey with an Oscar (except now for the person above) which is why I said I wasn't sure.

As for the $8 thing, yea, I was pretty upset. But seeing as how I didn't pay for it in the first place (like I said my friend bought a few and threw them in my tank til they got bigger and then he decided he only had room for 2) I guess I had no right to argue lol.


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

Raylans_girl said:


> mine did fine with angels while they were juveniles, after they reach a certain age is where the aggression comes in.


Once again, maybe the OP could clarify the question - is keeping them alive the goal? Managing aggression is necessary but far from sufficient...

What Bill suggested above should make a much more natural looking tank with angels and plants.


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## Raylans_girl (Aug 11, 2011)

peathenster said:


> Raylans_girl said:
> 
> 
> > mine did fine with angels while they were juveniles, after they reach a certain age is where the aggression comes in.
> ...


Once again, I already suggested that it would be fine for now but another tank would be needed for long term. I thought I said that....let me scroll up....yea there it is. Huh.


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## scarhbar (Feb 17, 2011)

No, my definition of working is all the fish being happy :/ honestly, I don't think their water parameters are so vvastly different, and my water around here is moderatly soft, with a pH near 6.5. I think both species would do fine.

I think I may just move him to my 125 when he gets older. And if they still fight, just sell him :/


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## Raylans_girl (Aug 11, 2011)

You know what partner, do what you see fit. Seems you're getting some conflicting answers.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Of course keeping small juvenile (insert almost any SA/CA cichlid here) with Angels would be fine. All juveniles care about is eating. There's little aggression amongst juveniles, it's when they reach sexual maturity the "fun" begins. And sexual maturity can be at different sizes for different species of cichlids.

Look, when someone asks how will _X_ cichlid go with _Y_ cichlid, and they tell us what size thier tank is and how it's set up, I automatically think how full grown adults will go in the setup. And just to cover bases, if they mention numbers, I always think about, "what if a pair forms and spawns".

EBJD's may be docile when compared to a normal JD, but that's mostly talking about juvenile, sexually immature EBJD's. They are delicate when young, and look cute, but a single 8 inch EBJD is still a beast compared to a pair of Angels trying to defend fry.

And when it comes to moderately planted or heavily planted tank, think about the damage done to 6 months + growth when trying to catch out a fish. I've been there, it's not pretty.

Here's C-F's EBJD profile. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... hp?id=2323
Awww, the juvenile looks so cute. Where it says images: click the drop down arrow and look at the adult. Gggrrrrrrr


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

Raylans_girl said:


> Once again, I already suggested that it would be fine for now but another tank would be needed for long term. I thought I said that....let me scroll up....yea there it is. Huh.


Total failure of communication.

I've made it clear, twice, that the answer depends on the goal. What does the word "fine" mean to you??


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

scarhbar said:


> No, my definition of working is all the fish being happy :/ honestly, I don't think their water parameters are so vvastly different, and my water around here is moderatly soft, with a pH near 6.5. I think both species would do fine.
> 
> I think I may just move him to my 125 when he gets older. And if they still fight, just sell him :/


JD likes harder and alkaline water. Angels like soft water and yours is perfect.

If you like blue fish, maybe a pair of EB rams is a better option?


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

DeadFishFloating said:


> Awww, the juvenile looks so cute. Where it says images: click the drop down arrow and look at the adult. Gggrrrrrrr


I grew out some cute babies till they were 4-5" then couldn't stand how "Gggrrrrr" they looked...got rid of them, and started over with babies....repeated three times and I think that's about enough... :lol:


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## scarhbar (Feb 17, 2011)

peathenster said:


> scarhbar said:
> 
> 
> > No, my definition of working is all the fish being happy :/ honestly, I don't think their water parameters are so vvastly different, and my water around here is moderatly soft, with a pH near 6.5. I think both species would do fine.
> ...


I've honestly never heard of a Jack liking hard water. But I am not here to argue. This will be a trial and error for me. If nothing goes right, I will sell him to someone who can give him a great home


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

scarhbar said:


> peathenster said:
> 
> 
> > scarhbar said:
> ...


It says it in thier C-F profile.

Scientific Name: 'Cichlasoma' octofasciatum (Blue Dempsey)

Pronunciation: sk-l-s-m k-t-fs--t-m

Common Name(s): Blue Dempsey

Diet: Omnivore

Gender Differences: Monomorphic

Breeding: Substrate Spawner

Temperament: Highly Aggressive

Conspecific Temperament: Highly Aggressive

Maximum Size: 8 - 9"

Temperature: 78 - 80Ã‚Â°F

* pH: 7

Water Hardness: Hard *

Difficulty: 2


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## scarhbar (Feb 17, 2011)

You're going to base JD info just off of this site? The majority of places I've looked say pH near 7, and moderatly soft water


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

Geez people, it's not rocket science...what's the water like in rivers in the Atlantic slope of Central America? Southern Mexico and Northwestern Honduras? Whip out a map and look at the mineral-rich rocky mountainous areas where the upstream streams collect water, or at least think about other cichlids out of those rivers...what water do they like?

All those profile websites do nothing but copying each other....that profile also says JDs are sexually monomorphic. Please don't tell me that's true.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

scarhbar said:


> You're going to base JD info just off of this site? The majority of places I've looked say pH near 7, and moderatly soft water


Will you accept FishBase as a suitable reference?
http://www.fishbase.org/summary/Rocio-octofasciata.html


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## Raylans_girl (Aug 11, 2011)

DeadFishFloating said:


> Of course keeping small juvenile (insert almost any SA/CA cichlid here) with Angels would be fine. All juveniles care about is eating. There's little aggression amongst juveniles, it's when they reach sexual maturity the "fun" begins. And sexual maturity can be at different sizes for different species of cichlids.
> 
> Look, when someone asks how will _X_ cichlid go with _Y_ cichlid, and they tell us what size thier tank is and how it's set up, I automatically think how full grown adults will go in the setup. And just to cover bases, if they mention numbers, I always think about, "what if a pair forms and spawns".
> 
> ...


Hmmm I think you just repeated everything I already said. And I hate repeating myself so I'm not going to. I did not condone keeping the jd in that tank for life. But if the op needs time to set up a proper tank, well this is the part where I repeat myself.


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

scarhbar - it sounds to me that you have a lovely tank that goes well with your water. Please at least think about Bill's suggestions. Adding an EBJD is like putting a pair of sunglasses on Mona Lisa. Sure, some are going to say it "would work". And if that's what you like, by all means.


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## Raylans_girl (Aug 11, 2011)

peathenster said:


> Raylans_girl said:
> 
> 
> > Once again, I already suggested that it would be fine for now but another tank would be needed for long term. I thought I said that....let me scroll up....yea there it is. Huh.
> ...


Fine is how I will feel when you stop quoting me. Fine is how mine did as juveniles with angels, grew up no problem, eating well, healthy, strong color and are still doing fine where they are. Oh, and the angels were fine too. Any more questions officer aquaria?


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## Raylans_girl (Aug 11, 2011)

peathenster said:


> scarhbar - it sounds to me that you have a lovely tank that goes well with your water. Please at least think about Bill's suggestions. Adding an EBJD is like putting a pair of sunglasses on Mona Lisa. Sure, some are going to say it "would work". And if that's what you like, by all means.


Oh. Jeez.


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

Raylans_girl said:


> peathenster said:
> 
> 
> > Raylans_girl said:
> ...


I didn't know you don't like people quoting you. Funny how you are quoting others at will. Should have changed your name to "don't quote me".

I can care less what you do with your tanks. May as well throw in a couple of turtles. But when you give "advice" to other people, try to understand what the question is, and be specific with your answers.

YES there's a good chance they won't kill each other.
NO mixing CAs and SAs, IMHO, doesn't make a good looking tank.


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## Raylans_girl (Aug 11, 2011)

peathenster said:


> Raylans_girl said:
> 
> 
> > peathenster said:
> ...


Now now it was a joke don't get your panties in a bunch cmon now. The op made it clear what their intentions were, not my fault you didn't read the whole thread. And I can give advice because I've owned them, in soft water as a matter of fact. The op clearly stated they have another tank with more suitable tankmates. Settle down partner, its the internet, its not like someone walked in your house and slapped your dog in the face.


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

Raylans_girl said:


> peathenster said:
> 
> 
> > Raylans_girl said:
> ...


Please don't feel personal about this, but what you are doing actually represents a certain attitude in fish keeping - "it's fine because I did it". It is frustrating because it often provides justifications to people that want to do the same, regardless of whether it's the right thing to do.

My point is simple - just because it can be done doesn't mean it should be done.

Fish can't tell us how they feel, and just because they look healthy and grow fast does NOT necessarily mean they are "happy". May I remind you of the poor chickens in a chicken farm? The best we can do, IMHO, is to recreate their natural biotic and abiotic environments to the best of our abilities. This often conflicts with our interests and desires, and the situation in hand is a good example. The question is, of course, what would we choose to do?

I don't think there's any misunderstanding, nor can we convince each other. This conversation has already gone off track and I apologize for my part.


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## Raylans_girl (Aug 11, 2011)

Well I'm getting real sick of repeating myself but I'm going to anyways because I already have gray hair from this thread. I did not say that it was ok to keep them in that tank, with angels long term. I stated to be prepared to move it to another tank because it wouldn't work as the fish got older. Keeping a dempsey with angels long term is silly, and I think the op knows that, which is why we discussed moving it to the 125 eventually which I said I wasn't sure if that would work so I didn't give solid advice on it, I waited for someone else to chime in. All I was trying to say is that if they needed to keep it in the angel tank til it was big enough to be moved that there shouldn't be a problem. Now as far as you taking me the wrong way, I'm from the south and I talk funny, I apologize if my sense of humor came across as being a turd.


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

I understand the need to grow it out.... I don't know if you'd want to spend 6 months staring at a tank with angels and EBJDs together....how many 6 months do we get anyway?


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## MonteSS (Dec 8, 2008)

*Please keep this on topic and stop the arguing and making personal attacks. There are many varying opinions and more than one can be right.*

I personally dont like to see CA and SA mixed together. However it obviously can and has been done.

If they are grown out together they may possibly get along, but as stated be prepared if a problem ocuur.

...Bill


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

What i see in this thread is a bunch of violent agreement with tiny insignificant differences of opinion or approaches to long term fish keeping. Tone it down or let me know and I will do it for all of you. 8)

I own an EBJD... Not much strikes me as natural about this mutant fish. Angelfish and a mutant pet fish in the same tank? Doesn't offend my sensibilities any more than the EBJD does all on its own. And I own one!


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## jeaninel (Nov 1, 2009)

opcorn:


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Locking thread for now...


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