# Training to Swim through Hoop



## FishyFaceFriend (Feb 23, 2013)

I am training my little cichlid to swim through a hoop. Do any of you guys have experience training fish?

Here is this morning's session:






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT-YzmiJ ... Gw&index=5


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## FishyFaceFriend (Feb 23, 2013)

Here is a link to the pellet size I use in training. They are the mini size.

https://plus.google.com/photos/11410892 ... 4vKA5MeGJw

I have searched the Internet everywhere and I can't find info on how much food exactly my fish needs per day. Everyone says "as much as he can eat in 5 minutes" or 3, or 2, or 1, or 30 seconds. No quantity. This guy is greedy and he could eat a LOT in 5 minutes (or even one).

When I train Erasmus I need many small rewards, so I soak the mini pellets in water until they puff up significantly, then I cut them into 2 or 3 pieces (varies).

How many pellets may I feed him per day total? I plan to have 2 to 3 training sessions per day.

I would really appreciate it if you could watch the video in the original post to see his size and help me estimate his daily food ration. I don't want to over-feed.

Many thanks!


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## cichlid-gal (Apr 27, 2012)

Love the training idea you are using...like dog training with a clicker. Your light being the clicker. I once taught my dog to close doors using clicker training. I wonder if they use something similar in training dolphins and killer whales?

As for the food...I'm not sure? Cutting it up is a good idea.


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

That's pretty cool, lol. Cichlids are smart fish :fish:


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## FishyFaceFriend (Feb 23, 2013)

Yes! It's exactly like clicker training. It's called operant conditioning using a marker. The marker in this case is the flashlight.


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## FishyFaceFriend (Feb 23, 2013)

cichlid-gal said:


> Love the training idea you are using....


Soon I will post a simple training game you can play with your fish if you want to try it at home. You won't need any special gear.


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## FishyFaceFriend (Feb 23, 2013)

Here you go: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=255038 I posted the game


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## VernonBean (Feb 18, 2013)

What is the rod that you used to release the food?


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

Is Erasmus an albino socolofi?


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## FishyFaceFriend (Feb 23, 2013)

vann59 said:


> Is Erasmus an albino socolofi?


Yes he is. I picked him because each time I went to the pet store he was the one who followed my finger the most and showed the most interest in the world outside the tank. Maybe he was just the hungriest, I don't know. He was alone in a tank full of zebras. I liked him right away. He looked happy and healthy.

The rod I used (I call it a wand) comes from the R2 fish school kit. It comes with many props for fish training. It's so awesome. I think you can buy the wand separately of the kit. Unfortunately I don't think it's waterproof on the other end - just the food releasing part. I wish I had known because this evening it got jammed. I hope it doesn't rust.

Here's a video for the R2 fish school kit:





As soon as I saw it I knew I had to try. I watched the (very cute) DVD that comes with the kit, but my training methods are different. I added a flashlight as a marker. It speeds the training up significantly. Got the idea for a marker from Karen Pryor's book "Reaching the Animal Mind." Must read! I didn't have a fish, so I looked around to borrow a fish. Ended up borrowing a cichlid from friends, but sadly he died the very next day. I was devastated. This was last week. I learned a lot since then. I'm still very afraid of waking up in the morning and finding Raz upside down in his house. Tonight when we came home from dinner he was acting very strange, swimming on the bottom of the tank looking like a zombie. He didn't react when I waved the wand next to his face outside the tank, didn't react when I flashed the light (he LOVES the food light and always sprints to the top of the tank for food). It was terrifying. We checked the levels - everything flawless. Suddenly he sprang to life and swam to us. Turns out he was asleep!

Or was he..? Do fish get into a trance when they sleep?


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

Ok, you've done your fish training homework, but did you do your fishkeeping homework? Do you understand the nitrogen cycle? If not you will lose fish until you do. If this is news to you, then run get some Tetra Safe Start right away and add it do the tank, and in the meantime do a large water change. Keep that little guy alive or he won't be learning for long.


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## lovelycoser (Feb 27, 2013)

My computer is slowly in my office, I won't look it until back home. hope I will learn something...


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## FishyFaceFriend (Feb 23, 2013)

vann59 said:


> Do you understand the nitrogen cycle? .. get some Tetra Safe Start .


is it necessary if all my levels are great? Temp 77, pH 8, Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0. I do know about cycling now. I did not fully cycle because I have only one small fish. I let the tank sit for 3 days with "bio" substrate, gravel from an established tank, and some liquid bacteria. I also put the filter from his previous tank in the filter. I posted on this forum to ask if it would be safe to put him in, and I was told that yes it should be fine. He is a small fish in a 20 gal tank.

Please do give me your advice. It was 10:30 PM, past his bedtime, when we got home. Don't fish sleep in their own way? He swam around the tank very weirdly like in a dream, skimming the bottom, doing slow rounds of the tank, occasionally picking at the substrate. He wasn't lopsided. But when he woke up he sprang to life and looked active (not frantic). He solicited food actively, then swam about in his merry manner until we went to bed. Was he sleeping? Was he starving? Was he sick?? Was he disoriented by the lights suddenly turning on? I left a small light for him when we left, so the place was softly lit all evening. When we turned off the overhead light he "woke up."

I'm going to add another hiding place for him and an air bubble thingy today because I read that it can help. I do 10% water changes daily, very slowly, temp matched and after letting the water sit in the bucked for an hour (I use a conditioner). I check the levels of everything 2-4 times a day (I no longer check for phosphates because I'm not afraid of them anymore). It's only been 4 days but the highest I've had the ammonia was 0.25 when I woke up yesterday morning, and I'm not sure it was 0.25 .. the test tube looked yellow to me but I thought I could imagine a slight slight green hue to it. So I did a 10% change, tested, and it was zero after that. Usually the ammonia reads zero. Nitrite has never been above zero in the new tank. Nitrate was 0.25 on the first day (did 10%WC), 0.15 on the second day, and zero since then.

If you have any useful input for me I would be very grateful.


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

I would stop soaking his food. The vitamins dissolve in water pretty quickly, and lower the nutritional value.

I think the behavior you observed when turning on the lights is normal. Fish do sleep, and can be kind of groggy if the lights are turned on.

Nitrate is measured in whole numbers, so I'm guessing your nitrate readings were higher than .25? If you have nitrate then there is some ammonia conversion happening. The ammonia test can be tricky to read under some lighting. I try to read all my tests near a window so I get indirect natural light.


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## cichlid-gal (Apr 27, 2012)

FishyFaceFriend said:


> Here's a video for the R2 fish school kit:


That is seriously amazing...it never even occurred to me that you could teach a fish tricks =D>


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## FishyFaceFriend (Feb 23, 2013)

b3w4r3 said:


> I would stop soaking his food. The vitamins dissolve in water pretty quickly, and lower the nutritional value.
> 
> ..
> 
> Nitrate is measured in whole numbers, so I'm guessing your nitrate readings were higher than .25?


Good point on vitamins. I think I will suspend each pellet in a drop of water then to puff it up. I really need to be able to chop his food down to small bits. I cut up the tiny mini pellets into 4 parts usually for training. They quadruple in size. If I soak them in a single drop, the water will be absorbed and vitamins retained. Part of the reason for soaking is that I read (on this forum) that it's better to have the pellets already expanded than have fish overeat and then expand while in their guts, causing discomfort and possibly illness.

I also use tiny bits of cut up 100% seaweed, and I still don't know what is the right amount to feed. I try to err on the side of underfeeding, but it's so hard to estimate. I keep the sessions short, and as soon as I see any poop coming out of the fish I stop, even if he hardly ate. We train 3 times a day, so it's ok if he's not full right away. As for pellets, so far on this forum I heard 5 per day and 2 per day. I'm still taking polls on that, so please take a look at the pellet size and give me your opinion: https://plus.google.com/photos/11410892 ... 4vKA5MeGJw

Nitrate: you're right of course. On day one nitrate level was 0.25, but the next day the color was much more faint than a 0.25 reading but it wasn't zero, so I invented that it was 0.15 based on the color gradation. Day after that was pure zero for sure. I also always take the readings next to the window. It's so tricky to make out sometimes.

((Total aside: I read that men and women might see color in a slightly different way, with women more sensitive to the red hues of blue (like purple). I'm very curious if that's true.))


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

I would be careful how much training that you do and not induce bloat from overfeeding.


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## FishyFaceFriend (Feb 23, 2013)

cichlid-gal said:


> That is seriously amazing...it never even occurred to me that you could teach a fish tricks =D>


When I found out you can train fish I had to try it. I never would have had an aquarium otherwise. Now that I have one, though, I think I'm hooked for life. I always loved fish (and most animals), but having the little guy has been amazing. He's so fascinating to observe.



k7gixxerguy said:


> I would be careful how much training that you do and not induce bloat from overfeeding.


Thank you, I completely agree. I tell myself all the time, "don't overfeed" or "be careful," but these are intuitive and vague notions. I want to know for a fact what is safe for my fish. How many pellets? How much seaweed exactly? I don't want to guess and constantly worry. I'm uncomfortable with vagueness. I know I can't trust Erasmus to tell me how much he needs because he tries to tell me he is STARVED.  Even a range is fine: "feed between 2 and 5 pellets per day, fast one day a week" - I can accept that. But "don't overfeed" is too vague. Remember I'm a complete novice so I haven't developed an intuition yet for what "feels right."


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

It seems we're all learning here. That's a good thing. The fish training and behavioral stuff is neat, keep that up. But your students will all die soon if you don't get your filter cycled. Notice I said filter, not tank, because although we normally say tank, it's really the filter that contains most of the bacteria that keeps the fish alive. Read this article http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/cycling.php about it.

Since you have a fish in the tank, you must keep the ammonia and nitrite levels down or he will become sick or die. Keep feeding to a minimum until you cycle it. Normally cycling can take six weeks and should be done without fish in the tank, but you have to play catch up, so get the Tetra Safe Start and add it following the directions. You can't really add too much, so don't worry about that. If you had many fish you would be in deeper trouble, but with just one, it will be easier, but you still have to cycle the tank. DO NOT add ammonia to the tank, that's for fishless cycles only. You must check the ammonia and nitrite daily. Change water to keep them down. Prime will also help detoxify them. When the cycle is functional you will have zero ammonia and nitrite, but will always have a nitrate reading.

Good luck!


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

Im guessing with your nitrate readings that you meant nitrite. If so then yes you are not cycled and that should be of the highest concern with minimal feeding. Once the cycle is complete there also is no hard and fast rule as what is 100% safe as an amount of food. Bloat can be caused by stress, overeating, or several other things. High nitrates on a fully cycled tank could contribute possibly as well. I have always heard the rule of they need to eat the size of their eye per day as a general fish keeping rule but as far as africans, the 30-60 seconds rule is the most common. Now consider that these fish are normally competing for food when its dropped in the tank so to test for one fish i would drop in enough that he could eat in say 20 seconds while you watch and count and feed no more than that every twelve hours for a fish that is considered a young adult or older.


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## FishyFaceFriend (Feb 23, 2013)

k7gixxerguy said:


> Im guessing with your nitrate readings that you meant nitrite.


nope, I meant nitrate. My nitrites have never been above zero in this tank.

By the evening of the first day of having the fish in the tank I had 0.25 nitrAte and zero nitrIte. On the second day I had about 0.10-0.15 as I described, and by day 3 I had zero again. When I set up the tank 3 days earlier I used two 16lb bags of "bio" crushed coral substrate, gravel from a very old established tank, liquid beneficial bacteria, and I put the old filter in with the new filter. I continue to monitor all levels multiple times a day.

Thank you for the feeding advice. I guess no one really knows for sure. I'm a human and I know exactly how many calories I need to eat every day, within a range (and more on workout days). I assume some scientist somewhere has a formula for the caloric need of a cichlid, even if it's just a range. In the meantime, I'll use the tips you gave me. I have already learned so much from this forum. I am very grateful, because I love this fish and I want him to live a happy life.



vann59 said:


> It seems we're all learning here. That's a good thing. The fish training and behavioral stuff is neat, keep that up. But your students will all die soon if you don't get your filter cycled. Notice I said filter, not tank, because although we normally say tank, it's really the filter that contains most of the bacteria that keeps the fish alive. Read this article http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/cycling.php about it.
> 
> Since you have a fish in the tank, you must keep the ammonia and nitrite levels down or he will become sick or die. Keep feeding to a minimum until you cycle it. Normally cycling can take six weeks and should be done without fish in the tank, but you have to play catch up, so get the Tetra Safe Start and add it following the directions. You can't really add too much, so don't worry about that. If you had many fish you would be in deeper trouble, but with just one, it will be easier, but you still have to cycle the tank. DO NOT add ammonia to the tank, that's for fishless cycles only. You must check the ammonia and nitrite daily. Change water to keep them down. Prime will also help detoxify them. When the cycle is functional you will have zero ammonia and nitrite, but will always have a nitrate reading.
> 
> Good luck!


I do appreciate the advice but I'm not 100% certain you actually read everything I wrote. It's ok - I know my posts are long-winded. I never added ammonia, I do check ammonia and nitrite daily. I do water changes daily. I have a boatload of beneficial bacteria in there.

Vann, when you keep telling me how my fish is going to die it doesn't help (this is the second time). I'm already worried, and I'm already motivated. 
I described everything I do for the fish. If I'm doing something wrong, please let me know. If I need to do more, tell me. You're giving me free advice here and I'm very grateful, but I would appreciate it if you could be a bit more sensitive.

So just to recap,

Game plan is: check levels daily, do PWC daily if levels above zero, try not to overfeed, and wait. Right?

Given the info I gave on the bacteria seeding I did, do I still need the Tetra Safe Start?


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

There seems to be some confusion, and that is what is causing some of the comments here. Like I said earlier Nitrate is measured in whole numbers, not decimals. The very first reading on my nitrate test after 0 is 5.0 So when you say your nitrate is .25 people are assuming you mean nitrite as that test uses decimals in the beginning.

As long as you can keep the ammonia levels well below .5, below 2.5 even better, you should be ok. It sounds like the tank may be going through a mini cycle according to what you have said. Don't take comments personally, people just want to help obviously, and with inaccurate information, however unintended, you are going to get mixed replies.

Also keep in mind that PWC will reduce nitrogen compounds respectively. A 10% PWC is only going to reduce your test results by 10%, which isn't much. Just saying, you probably realize this but it doesn't hurt to point it out.

So just keep checking as you are doing, and use PWC to dilute the bad stuff until your system is running fully.


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

As the above post stated, check your color chart for nitrates. An established tank with a full nitrogen cycle wont read zero unless you have something consuming the nitrates such as a lot of fast growing plants. What test kit are you using? The only ways to get rid of nitrates are water changes, plants, or a very specific type of bacteria that is not commonly found in traditional easy aquarium setups. They thrive in very low oxygen environments such as fluidized sand beds and the like.


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## FishyFaceFriend (Feb 23, 2013)

ohhhh!

I see. I just looked up my notes again and I have completely mixed it up. My readings are, separated by commas (usually a comma =PWC):

Day 1, Sunday:
pH 7.5?, 8
ammonia 0, <0.25 (less than 0.25, more than 0)
nitrite 0, 0
nitrate 0,0
temp 82, 79
chlorine: 0, 0, 0
Phosphate: 0.5, 0.7~
Hardness: hard

Day 2, Monday:
pH 8, 8
ammonia 0, 0.10~(less than 0.25, but maybemore than 0)
nitrite 0, 0
nitrate 0,0
temp 78, 76.5
chlorine: 0, 0, 0
Phosphate: 0.5 
Hardness: hard

Day 3, Tuesday:
pH 8.2, 0
ammonia 0.25, 0
nitrite 0, 0
nitrate 0,0
temp 77.5
chlorine: 0, 0
Hardness: hard to very hard

Day 4, Wednesday (today):
pH 8, 8, 8
ammonia <0.25, <0.25, 0
nitrite 1, 0, 0
nitrate 0,0, 0
temp 78, 78, 78


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## FishyFaceFriend (Feb 23, 2013)

I just read online that using bacteria supplements in a new tank slows down the cycling because it "starves" the bacteria in the tank.

I just looked at the product details.

Chemical Composition:

Water (H2O): 88.4%
NaCl: 5.0% (salt I guess)
Propylene Glycol (CH3CH(OH)CH2OH): 3.3% (?)
Bacteria (CrystalClear Nitrifier): 3.3%

Is it bad to add the bacteria? I've been adding it with every water change like it says on the bottle.

Is my bacteria starving? Should I let ammonia and nitrites rise a little higher than zero?  
Should I hook up a second filter to speed things up? I have a 20 gallon tank and a 30 gallon filter pump.


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