# throw out your NLS? - AAP Premium all natural



## mbuna nate (May 2, 2017)

Hey guys, i just goto new food in for my fish and have been feeding for a week now. Its AAP Premium all natural crumble, and i'm wondering why the heck everyone recommends NLS at all now that i have seen this. I purchased the herbivore crumble specially formulated for fish like the Mbuna. AAP uses whole ingredients that gets fish an appropriate level of nutrients. Many fish foods are focus on ingredients not nutrients and therefore provide too much energy, shortening lives and making them susceptible to renal failure. The concern with foods like NLS is that many people want to see algae and spirulina high on the ingredients list because these fish eat it exclusively in nature. AAP realized a fish tank is not lake Malawi and only selects ingredients to provides them with the proper levels of nutrients. AAP is able to feed your fish whole ingredients, and the list is short enough for me to type here. Because NLS uses algae primarily it needs to supplement massive amounts of protein into their diet, often through additives, which then requires chemical additives to get them essential nutrients. Furthermore because more protein is digestible less is excreted in feces, and therefore you WILL have lower nitrates at the end of the week than you are use to. The week my fish have been eating this has shown unbelievable results. My fish now defecate exclusively in ~5mm brown pieces that break off immediately and sink to the bottom. I have not seen any clear feces, even the "normal" amount you may expect to see over a week, and because it is a crumble it is super easy to feed my catfish, larger fish, and fry all with one food. I paid $6 for 4oz (they add extra to compensate for dust in shipping but do not say how much on the label) of the food and $10 for faster shipping, my 4.4oz NLS still has its price tag of $14.99 from my LFS, so $1 is an easy decision there. I did probably over pay for my NLS, but i also overpaid for shipping so you should expect them to be similar, especially when ordering refills without expedited shipping.

Guaranteed analysis:

AAP 
32.9% protein 82% digestible 
22.7% Starch 
21.7% Fiber 
5.5% Fat (not Crude) 
4.7% Moisture 
2% Sugar 
89.5% all natural nutrients 
10.5% Remainder

NLS Algea Max:
32% Crude Protein
5% Crude Fat
10% Crude Fiber only 5% in regular NLS
10% Moisture
9% Ash
57% stuff they want to tell us
43% Garbage

AAP Vitamins:
A,E,K,B1,B2,B5,B6,C,M,H,D3,B12

NLS Vitamins:
A,D,E

AAP Ingredients:
Whole Menhaden Fish Meal, Green Pea Flour, Kelp, Corn Bran, Human Grade Spirulina Powder, Menhaden Fish Oil, Astaxanthin, Paprika, and Cayenne Pepper

NLS Algea Max ingredients:
Algae; Chlorella, Ulva Seaweed, Red Seaweed, Kelp, Spirulina, Wakame Seaweed, Whole Antarctic Krill, Whole Fish, Eucheuma cottonii, Spinosum Seaweed, Chondrus crispus, Whole Wheat Flour, Omega-3 Fish Oil, Alfalfa, Astaxanthin, Capsanthin, Zeaxanthin, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Folic Acid, Biotin, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Calcium Pantothenate, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (Vitamin C), Choline Chloride, Ethylenediamine Dihydroiodide, Cobalt Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, and Manganese Sulfate

Im curious what other people think or if they have tried it, but if not i would


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## mbuna nate (May 2, 2017)

Cant Edit now, but missed adding in the 9% Ash (not that it matters) for the NLS total, it should be 66% food and 34% garbage, if that makes a difference to you.


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## mbuna nate (May 2, 2017)

No one has any opinion at all on this? The food we feed our fish is at least as impactful on their health as water quality, if not more so. I was thinking this would generate more input, many of us don't know a lot about feeding and it seems many of us have been over estimating NLS or overburdening ourselves feeding strictly homemade


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I will keep feeding NLS it's a good food and I'm not fond of anything with corn as a filler for any of my pets. But the NLS has all the vitamins that AAP does just in different forms for some plus doesn't use fish meal.


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## mbuna nate (May 2, 2017)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> I will keep feeding NLS it's a good food and I'm not fond of anything with corn as a filler for any of my pets. But the NLS has all the vitamins that AAP does just in different forms for some plus doesn't use fish meal.


Where did you hear corn was bad for fish? They use corn filler to feed farm raised fish for human consumption and at public aquariums and many people use corn as bait when fishing. Considering everything we use in the hobby is labeled "not for use with fish intended for human consumption" I would think using a product held to a higher standard would be preferred. Also, yes NLS does provide vitamins but L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate and natural vitamin C are two different animals. Ask any doctor or nutritionist and they will tell you that it is always healthier for you or your pets to eat the most natural ingredients possible rather than eating filler and vitamins. Sure you can make a flour, sugar, multivitamin paste and still get "all the same nutrients" but I'm not sure why you would rather live on that than a mix of natural proteins and vegetables. It also clearly takes a toll on the fish's digestive system because my fish have been much healthier and regular with their feces. Also fish need to eat fish meal this is why there are so many additives to NLS. There is not another way they are going to get omega fatty acids into their diet otherwise.

Long story short:

NLS is like children's cereal; look on the box and "wow look at all those vitamins, this must be healthy!" but try and feed it exclusively and they will die early. Trying to avoid corn is like being gluten free without celiacs disease, your damaging your body to prevent something from happening that isn't an issue. Corn husks can be hard for some fish to digest. Corn prepared for fish is an essential source of starch.

http://www.futurity.org/farmed-fish-foo ... 1121102-2/


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## james1983 (Dec 23, 2007)

RD on monsterfishkeepers has post a few things about it. Hes seems to be knowledgeable when it comes to fish nutrition.

https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/foru ... ce.683112/


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## mbuna nate (May 2, 2017)

James, that's either where i saw it first, or i heard about it in a youtube video and looked his post up. It seemed worth trying and i'm really glad i did. I don't know that RD has any background in fish nutrition either and the results speak for themselves. I still need to dial in the correct amount because its easy to overfeed, but as the warning label says,"Your fish will love this food and thrive like never before."


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

My fish are fed exclusively NLS and all have exceeded their life expectancies. Can't hurt to check out something new however.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Doesn't seem like you were looking for other opinions, more like looking for an argument. Your reply is full of logical fallacies to the point of almost being laughable. Fish farms and the like feed corn because it's a cheap FILLER. Where in a single lake in Africa does corn exist as a "natural food" as you claim? Fish meal is ground up fish after all the usable parts for human consumption are removed, basically just heads and bones, which are usually boiled so there goes your omega fatty acids. NLS uses whole ingredients not fillers like pea flour, corn and fish meal.


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## mbuna nate (May 2, 2017)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> Doesn't seem like you were looking for other opinions, more like looking for an argument. Your reply is full of logical fallacies to the point of almost being laughable. Fish farms and the like feed corn because it's a cheap FILLER. Where in a single lake in Africa does corn exist as a "natural food" as you claim? Fish meal is ground up fish after all the usable parts for human consumption are removed, basically just heads and bones, which are usually boiled so there goes your omega fatty acids. NLS uses whole ingredients not fillers like pea flour, corn and fish meal.


most people can exchange information in a way other than arguing. As AAP points out, your fish tank is not lake malawi and trying to feed your fish as if it were is not realistic. I am asking where you heard that corn is bad because NLS themselves state, in RD's liked post, that fillers are essential to feeding fish. The argument AAP is making is that other foods have too much nutrients, not that they need more. I'm not sure why you would take this so personally, but i can promise you i am not very emotionally invested in the fish food I use. I use NLS too but stopped after the results i saw with AAP. I don't know what makes a post laughable to you but i don't think either one of us is a biologist so why not try it instead of trying to shoot it down and getting angry?


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

It's laughable because AAP is the one with the worthless fillers you speak of. Corn, pea flour and fish meal are all cheap fillers that tetra and other foods of the like use. In the wild, mbuna survive on algae and the occasional fry or insect etc and piscivores eat those fish, so on and so forth. A food that contains whole fish, whole krill, spirulina etc provides all the necessary nutrients they would survive on in a natural setting. I'm not emotionally invested in my fish food either but it's clearly more nutritionally complete and you don't have to be a biologist to use google and figure that out.


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

Let's be careful here. I've been observing, and want to make sure this does not go sideways. The original post feels more like a manufacturer shill than a legitimate hobbyist post, but in case my instincts are off, I'm letting it go.

Constructive debate is always good, just keep to the high road.


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## mbuna nate (May 2, 2017)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> It's laughable because AAP is the one with the worthless fillers you speak of  per NLS: "If fish (or krill or similar) is not listed as the first ingredient,and the ash content is less than 9%, it can indicate too much soybean, wheat gluten or blood meal being used." (NLS P.3) . Corn, pea flour and fish meal _"It's a common misconception that all fish meal is a poor quality protein source. Fish meal can be an excellent source of protein, and rich in essential amino acids, fats, vitamins and minerals. The key is to only accept Whole fish derived ingredients."(NLS, P.7)_ are all cheap fillers that tetra and other foods of the like use. In the wild, mbuna survive on algae no they do not. They eat algae but it is not what provides them their nutrition. they eat algea all day but their nutrition is coming from inverts in the algea, free invers and small fish they catch, and proteins taken up by the alge,
> not the algae themselves.(Cichlid Forum) This is not the algae you think you are getting in your fish food or they wouldn't be supplementing nutrition.  and the occasional fry or insect etc and piscivores eat those fish, so on and so forth. A food that contains whole fish, whole krill, spirulina etc provides all the necessary nutrients they would survive on in a natural settingI dont know if you missed it, but the first ingredient in AAP is Whole menhaden fish meal, and it has spirulina in it as well. I'm not emotionally invested in my fish food either but it's clearly more nutritionally complete and you don't have to be a biologist to use google and figure that out.


http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/feeding_mbuna.php
http://nlsfishfood.com/wp-content/uploa ... rticle.pdf

I absolutely agree to a constructive debate, however i really didn't want to to get into a scientific debate here. I was just excited about my new food and wanted to tell you guys about it, but there does seem to be a little bit of backlash. My recommendation is, don't get hung up on trying to know exactly how they will react before you actually feed them. It is a high quality food, i do not know if it is the best, but it is at least as healthy for your fish as NLS, so why not try it?


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

james1983 said:


> RD on monsterfishkeepers has post a few things about it. Hes seems to be knowledgeable when it comes to fish nutrition.
> 
> https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/foru ... ce.683112/


That link says it all as far as I am concerned.

R.D has been discussing fish nutrition for at least ten years on just about about every fish site that I have ever been on (including here).

I have been using NLS for all my fish ever since I first read his posts years ago.

Any food that I can safely feed to Tropheus, Gobies, Petros, featherfins as well as Calvus and comps is the food I'll be using.

I certainly wouldn't start using a new, unproven food on my fish in the hopes that they accept it, let alone throw out hundreds of dollars worth of food.


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## mbuna nate (May 2, 2017)

I agree that RD seems like a knowledgeable fellow, my issue with his analysis is it is basically all ad hominem and not based on actual evidence. He is representing his analysis as scientific, however he has no empirical data. He never purchased the food, fed it to any fish, or even consulted with people who had. Instead he based his opinion on an interaction with the creator and his prior knowledge, which is great, but I don't know why everyone assumes an amateur biologists opinion would trump observation. I am not trying to say that RD doesn't know what he is talking about, but if he really did want to give this food a fair analysis he should at least try feeding it. Science is not often done well when people reach their conclusions before they even experiment. His opinion is a hypothesis but he has no data to back it up and therefore not very scientific. Similarly to a meteorologist telling me that it is going to rain based on trillions of calculations preformed by a computer and top scientists, it is most accurate to simply look out your window and check before you go outside in a rain jacket. Can you predict weather this way? No, but you can tell what the weather is now. Sure you can do all this research on fish nutrition but it all goes out the window if you never test you hypothesis. I do not trust RD on this one issue because it seems he does have a personal issue with the food, he never actually tried it, discounts the evidence of people who have tried it to the point he is answering questions of how it worked when he has never tried it and there are people in the thread who have, and seems to consider himself an expert but is incapable of preparing his own food when he himself is unhappy with the food he is purchasing. Is he a great resource? Yes, but i would not base my entire hobby around his opinion.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

It's good that you like your fish food and I'm not going to try to convince you to change your mind. If you're going to argue your point make sure you have a valid one and don't pick and choose what parts of my post you actually acknowledge to try to discredit me. I stated that they eat other things besides algae and you kinda just sidestepped and ignored that part to insert your commentary. You use your AAP and I'll stick to my NLS, good day sir.


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

Between NLS and Northfin, you can get everything you need for almost all species. They are my staples, supplemented with various flakes, and golden pearls or BBS for fry.


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## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

"EXTREME AQUATIC FOODS" for the win.   :lol: :lol: :lol:

How about some of you PHDs put the slide rule to this food and give us the skinny on it.  :wink: :wink:


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Oh no no no, I don't think I'll ever debate fish foods again lol.


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## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> Oh no no no, I don't think I'll ever debate fish foods again lol.


Chicken!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

OKAY blue, I looked up xtreme and it seems pretty good I suppose, then again I'm not really into critiquing fish foods just setting records straight lol. I'm assuming the brewers yeast is being used as a probiotic? I really like NLS though and it's going to take a lot of convincing to sway my opinion and results.


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

Maybe not the end all of fish food analysis, but they break down a lot of good and bad in fish food. You can see for yourself where NLS and Northfin rank.
http://www.oscarfish.com/fish-food-analysis.html


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## iluvmud (Jan 2, 2017)

Maybe a noob thing, but my fish seem to prefer flakes.... I bought nls on the recommendation here but these guys don't seem seem to be too thrilled with it.... now maybe due to a similar effect with dogs and **** dog food where they eat the junk like it's going out of style but the healthier food they don't gorge he selves on it. That sound about right??


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

There are quality flake foods...they are just messy. Healthy fish will eat just about anything you put in the tank.


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## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> OKAY blue, I looked up xtreme and it seems pretty good I suppose, then again I'm not really into critiquing fish foods just setting records straight lol. I'm assuming the brewers yeast is being used as a probiotic? I really like NLS though and it's going to take a lot of convincing to sway my opinion and results.


Everyone knows it is used so the fish will "Rise" to become "Big and Strong" !!!! :lol:


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## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

DrgRcr said:


> Maybe not the end all of fish food analysis, but they break down a lot of good and bad in fish food. You can see for yourself where NLS and Northfin rank.
> http://www.oscarfish.com/fish-food-analysis.html


Thank you for the link. I'm always interested in looking at new foods.


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## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

mbuna nate said:


> Hey guys, i just goto new food in for my fish and have been feeding for a week now. Its AAP Premium all natural crumble, and i'm wondering why the heck everyone recommends NLS at all now that i have seen this. I purchased the herbivore crumble specially formulated for fish like the Mbuna. AAP uses whole ingredients that gets fish an appropriate level of nutrients. Many fish foods are focus on ingredients not nutrients and therefore provide too much energy, shortening lives and making them susceptible to renal failure. The concern with foods like NLS is that many people want to see algae and spirulina high on the ingredients list because these fish eat it exclusively in nature. AAP realized a fish tank is not lake Malawi and only selects ingredients to provides them with the proper levels of nutrients. AAP is able to feed your fish whole ingredients, and the list is short enough for me to type here. Because NLS uses algae primarily it needs to supplement massive amounts of protein into their diet, often through additives, which then requires chemical additives to get them essential nutrients. Furthermore because more protein is digestible less is excreted in feces, and therefore you WILL have lower nitrates at the end of the week than you are use to. The week my fish have been eating this has shown unbelievable results. My fish now defecate exclusively in ~5mm brown pieces that break off immediately and sink to the bottom. I have not seen any clear feces, even the "normal" amount you may expect to see over a week, and because it is a crumble it is super easy to feed my catfish, larger fish, and fry all with one food. I paid $6 for 4oz (they add extra to compensate for dust in shipping but do not say how much on the label) of the food and $10 for faster shipping, my 4.4oz NLS still has its price tag of $14.99 from my LFS, so $1 is an easy decision there. I did probably over pay for my NLS, but i also overpaid for shipping so you should expect them to be similar, especially when ordering refills without expedited shipping.
> 
> Guaranteed analysis:
> 
> ...


If you did not come across as the owner/salesman, everyone might be a little more receptive.

Thank you for bring this food up, we are always interested in looking at new foods. Where might someone buy some of this food you are talking so highly of?


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

BlueSunshine said:


> caldwelldaniel26 said:
> 
> 
> > OKAY blue, I looked up xtreme and it seems pretty good I suppose, then again I'm not really into critiquing fish foods just setting records straight lol. I'm assuming the brewers yeast is being used as a probiotic? I really like NLS though and it's going to take a lot of convincing to sway my opinion and results.
> ...


Hahaha real knee slapper blue lol.


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## iluvmud (Jan 2, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> There are quality flake foods...they are just messy. Healthy fish will eat just about anything you put in the tank.


Oh they eat everything.... but these guys splash the **** out of me when they get their flake food.

Speaking of flake food what do you guys suggest for a good flake food?


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## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

Great...ya'll just had to go and start this thread!!!! Here I was, in it to win it, then all the links and references were posted up. Sooooo..... I start reading, come to find out my food has all the good stuff and all the bad stuff in it. Well dang....guess our fish will just have to suffer. :fish: :fish: 
I did find this aap natural food for sale. Seeing as we feed over 20 pounds of food a year, We would not be able to afford this high end food after all.


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## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

iluvmud said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> > There are quality flake foods...they are just messy. Healthy fish will eat just about anything you put in the tank.
> ...


I would think this to be the normal, seeing as flakes do not sink very fast at all. :-?


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