# Cycled my tank in 9 days with Tetra Sure Start!!!!!!!!!!!



## fishonbikes (Dec 29, 2009)

Quick History:

-I started this tank on Dec 27th which was 17 days ago with a 90 gal tank. 
-2 days later I bought 2 Yellow Hybrid(Assumed they were Labs) and a dozen quality goldfish
-The night of the 30th I bought 4 mixed Malawi from PetSmart. (Bad decision to buy these fish) At this time the fish total was 18.
-On the following Saturday I took all but 4 goldfish out and they only stayed because I couldn't catch the little boogers.
-At this point my readings are very consistent with the PH(8.2), Ammonia(2.0), and Nitrite(1.0)
-On the 3rd I did a 80% water change, added Prime, and added a bottle of Tetra Sure Start that was for a 75 gal. They didn't have a bigger size and for $30-35 a bottle that one was all I was buying. 
-The first 4 days the readings stayed very consistent with numbers above. 
-Day five the Ammonia went stayed the same and the Nitrite dropped to 0.5
-On day six the Ammonia dropped to 1.0 and the Nirite stayed the same
-Day seven the Ammonia dropped to 0.5 and Nitrite finally zeroed(0) out
-Day eight the Ammonia went to 0.25 and the Nirtite stayed at 0
-Today day nine, both of them are at zero(0)

I use an API kit with test tubes and solution. No strips.

I'm posting this because I have read a lot of people on this website talk about how they don't think these products work. I read a couple of other websites where people seemed to have great success with it and that is what gave me the gumption to try it. Don't get me wrong, there were people who did not experience a success using the bacteria in a bottle. However, I did take a lot of notes and asked many questions from people right here that gave me great advice with filtration which I upgraded, substrate, and so on. Because of what I did and the advice I used I feel that is what made the bacteria in a bottle a success for me.

One more note. Some of you may wonder how thourogh I was when testing the water. I take great notes and I am very mythodical when it comes to my system of testing the tank. If I questioned it I did it over. Saying that is what makes me feel comfortable talking to you about the outcome. I don't feel in anyway that the readings are false or there are any issues with the testing kit.

I guess you could say that fish were stressed in the process, but no doubt the bacteria in a bottle worked. :thumb:


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

I just started up a 225G system and transfered 18 mature mbuna and haps into it after three days to make sure all was running correctly.

I used one bottle of SafeStart (biospira) good for 75 gals and transfered some bioballs from another sump the same day the stock was added. Instant cycle. Cost out of pocket ... $25.00. The last tank I did a fishless cycle and it took 4 weeks to accomplish similar results.


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## aspen (Jun 15, 2004)

was all of the stuff new? ie did you use any plants or rocks from an established tank with out bleaching?

rick


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i've used safe start with sucess, i tried to seed with a used filter, and after a few days i saw no change in readings, a few hours after i added safe start ammonia dropped off monitored daily never had a spike of anyhting afterwards, i would never use this product with fish just to be safe, but i would suggest using to jump start a fishless cycle


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

Not to steal the OP's thread but in my case all new substrate was used. I did steal some bioballs from an established tank and used some plants from the same sump/ refugium the bioballs came from. To try not to bring in castaway snails I rinsed the plants under running water and let them sit out on paper for an hour or so before I introduced them into the new fuge.

I was not too pleased with the cost of the safestart and the guy at the LFS tried to sell me two bottles, but in my case it cut short the cycle time and I needed to transfer my stock as soon as I could.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> The last tank I did a fishless cycle and it took 4 weeks to accomplish similar results.


Fishless cycling does not shorten cycle times. It's used so fish aren't subjected to elevated ammonia/nitrite levels. I'd agree with the suggestion of seeding a filter with used media in conjuction with fishess cycling. Then you and fish get the best of both worlds, a shorter cycling time and no distressed fish. I've done that many times. That's how I cycle all of my new tanks.



> I did steal some bioballs from an established tank ...I was not too pleased with the cost of the safestart and the guy at the LFS tried to sell me two bottles, but in my case it cut short the cycle time and I needed to transfer my stock as soon as I could.


If seeding with media *and *using a bacteria starter, there is no way to determine which shortened the cycle time. They may both actually have contributed, but no way to give exclusive credit to one or the other.



> i tried to seed with a used filter, and after a few days i saw no change in readings,


That's typical. It usually takes a few days for ammonia to drop and total time of 7-10 to cycle when using media to seed. At least that's been my experience.



> i would never use this product with fish just to be safe, but i would suggest using to jump start a fishless cycle


Same here. :thumb: I'd be one of the ones that wouldn't have good results. There's usually no reason to risk the fish. Sometimes situations can come up and you have no choice. Then, I'd agree that these products may be worth a shot. But, they're expensive, and of questionable benefit, so I'd avoid gettting into that situation if you can.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

prov356 said:


> If seeding with media *and *using a bacteria starter, there is no way to determine which shortened the cycle time. They may both actually have contributed, but no way to give exclusive credit to one or the other.


Mebbe I should have stated I transfered about 1/2 gal of bioballs at most. I did this as a precaution since the LFS suggested I use two bottles and I only used one. Most likely two bottles would have been overkill and I would have gotten the same results w/out adding any seeded media but it is too late to debate that now.

The tank is a 210 Gal and I am using about 25 gallons in the sump/ fuge. 1/2 gallon of seeded bioballs will not make a measurable impact on cycling 225 gals in such a short time. I would guess that 1/2 gal of seeded bioballs would be overwelmed trying to convert the ammonia and nitrItes on a tank this size with the stock added w/out using the SafeStart. Its contribution on the first day is most likely negligible and was used only for piece of mind. YMMV.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> 1/2 gallon of seeded bioballs will not make a measurable impact on cycling 225 gals in such a short time.


That's not been my experience at all. I use very little media when seeding large tanks. A small handful of bioballs is typical. I actually keep the smaller nanoballs in my wet/dry's for this purpose. The bacteria multiply exponentially and it really doesn't take much in the way of biomedia to seed a tank. True that they are overwhelmed in the first few days, which is why you won't see an ammonia drop, but they reach a point where the doubling results in a bacterial explosion, if you will, and that's when the ammonia drop happens.

It could very well have been the SafeStart that came through for you, but you'd be surprised how much of an effect a little biomedia can have on shortening the cycle even in a large tank. That's all I've ever used is a little. That's all anyone can usually move unless taking down the old tank.


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## ssondubs (Nov 16, 2008)

Seachem "Stability" work great for me!


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## fishonbikes (Dec 29, 2009)

Great posts everybody! Man, some of you guys have got some big tanks. I thought I was doing good with a 90, but 800 gallons? That must be a couple of different tanks. Otherwise you are hollywood for sure.

Rick you asked me:



> was all of the stuff new? ie did you use any plants or rocks from an established tank with out bleaching?
> 
> Everything but the tank was brand new. 2 filters, sand, rocks, heater, and all. I did take the advice from my LFS lady and poored a bunch down the canister filter and took the filters out of the Penguin BioWheel and then the rest in the water.
> 
> ...


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

the way i see it, if it's truly live bacteria, then the smallest bottle will work for any size tank, the simple solution is to add ammonia up to 1-2ppm, add the smallest bottle, wait until the the ammonia and nitrites both hit zero, it might take longer, but if the bacteria are live they should soon multiply enough to handle the load for a larger tank, it won't be instant, but it will still be shorter than a full cycle


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

cjacob316 said:


> the way i see it, if it's truly live bacteria, then the smallest bottle will work for any size tank, the simple solution is to add ammonia up to 1-2ppm, add the smallest bottle, wait until the the ammonia and nitrites both hit zero, it might take longer, but if the bacteria are live they should soon multiply enough to handle the load for a larger tank, it won't be instant, but it will still be shorter than a full cycle


You know, I never thought of that, but you're absolutely right. And how can they recommend X amount per gallon anyway? It's not about the gallons, but it's about the fish load.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

[b:26of5ldd said:


> fishonbikes[/b]
> ":26of5ldd]Great posts everybody! Man, some of you guys have got some big tanks. I thought I was doing good with a 90, but 800 gallons? That must be a couple of different tanks. Otherwise you are hollywood for sure.


Most of it is in 9 different tanks.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

prov356 said:


> > 1/2 gallon of seeded bioballs will not make a measurable impact on cycling 225 gals in such a short time.
> 
> 
> That's not been my experience at all. I use very little media when seeding large tanks. A small handful of bioballs is typical.


Don't take this personally, as I am not trying to be argumentive ... I doubt very much what you say. One thing that cannot be argued is fact and we are not entitled to our own facts, opinions mebbe, but not our own facts. Interpret my results however you will.

I put over 126" worth of mature fish in a tank with ~ 12 or less seeded bioballs and 1 bottle of safeStart. As of one week and since day one, testing twice a day, zero ammonia, zero nitrItes and nitrAtes have just hit 5ppm. Now I am not endorsing SafeStart and am not too happy with its price but the fact is, It Works.. and good at that.

Now if you would like ... back up your assumptions ... take half that stock, say 48" even, and a dozen or less seeded bioballs and let me know how that works for you ... From past experience I already know the outcome and I suppose so do you. Just like you, BTDT.

Cheers M8


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## scrubjay (Oct 25, 2009)

you young folks these days are so impatient


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## fishonbikes (Dec 29, 2009)

scrubjay wrote:



> you young folks these days are so impatient
> 
> I couldn't agree with you more. I started off all wrong and I used the Sure Start to help keep the fish I added prematurally in better health. I'm glad to say they are doing great now, but I did jump the gun?
> 
> What kind of fish is that in your profile picture? Nice colors.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I put over 126" worth of mature fish in a tank


I think that's the difference. We're not comparing apples to apples. I don't cycle with fish. I fishless cycle.



> Now if you would like ... back up your assumptions ... take half that stock, say 48" even, and a dozen or less seeded bioballs and let me know how that works for you ... From past experience I already know the outcome and I suppose so do you. Just like you, BTDT.


You'd have dead fish, of course. You're not understanding the point I'm making.

What I do is fishless cycle in 7-10 days using a handful of bioballs to seed. And these aren't assumptions or my own facts, but my own experience. That's all I'm sharing for anyone who reads this. You don't need to move half or more of your biomedia if seeding a tank that you're going to 'fishless' cycle. If cycling with fish (which I don't recommend at all), then of course move as much as you can, test, test, test, and be ready to do water changes and add a detox product to deal with any spikes.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

scrubjay said:


> you young folks these days are so impatient


You talkin' about me? I'll take that as a compliment if you are. I been around a while. :lol:


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

prov356 said:


> You'd have dead fish, of course. You're not understanding the point I'm making.


The problem with this internet thingie is it is so hard to convey intentions. My point was not to say using a bio addititive or fishless cycling is the way to go. To me half the fun is in getting there and then we've only just begun. I love to tinker.

This is a hobby to me and has been for many years now. I don't want it "now" but rather want it "right". I also fishless cycle new tanks and have been for over 5 years now. Otherwise it is just swapping cans and substrate to cycle when needed. My wife informed me "this tank has to move" and it was going to happen one way or another, something about her wanting a change of design for the room. I had this tank sitting empty for a few years now and had a few idears onna new sump /fuge so time was of the essence. Else my beloved Haps were going to the LFS for free. 

I got great results using this product, actually I should say immediate results, so if a person were to come on board saying their fish are struggling to breathe after 4 - 5 days in a new tank I will be the first to suggest using SafeStart to instant cycle their tank, though it is prolly to late to save the burnt gills. And I do end saying YMMV, I do not consider myself all knowing.


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## fishonbikes (Dec 29, 2009)

So is saying something like they have burnt gills comparable to a human that has smoked and left tar in their lungs? Does it mean that the gills won't receive oxygen as well? I've read that it hurts them, but it has never been clear as to what implacations this fish face because of a gill "burn".


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

fishonbikes said:


> So is saying something like they have burnt gills comparable to a human that has smoked and left tar in their lungs? Does it mean that the gills won't receive oxygen as well? I've read that it hurts them, but it has never been clear as to what implacations this fish face because of a gill "burn".


Check this out Should answer your questions.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

*prov356*


> cjacob316 wrote:
> the way i see it, if it's truly live bacteria, then the smallest bottle will work for any size tank, the simple solution is to add ammonia up to 1-2ppm, add the smallest bottle, wait until the the ammonia and nitrites both hit zero, it might take longer, but if the bacteria are live they should soon multiply enough to handle the load for a larger tank, it won't be instant, but it will still be shorter than a full cycle
> 
> You know, I never thought of that, but you're absolutely right. And how can they recommend X amount per gallon anyway? It's not about the gallons, but it's about the fish load.


i think it may be assumed that larger tanks have larger bio loads, therefore more bacteria, larger bottle.

*scrubjay*


> you young folks these days are so impatient


i'll admit i'm pretty impatient, i like to get my stuff up and running asap, but I will always make sure the tank is safe first, but i don't mind spending a little extra money to jump start it


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## scrubjay (Oct 25, 2009)

It's great to hear that there is some success with the live-bac and detox products. Are there any fish stores that have an ongoing tank set up for the purpose of selling seeded media to customers with which to start their tanks? It wouldn't even need to have fish, just an ammonia doser. And if not, wouldn't this seem like a logical thing to do? Pardon me while I go to the patent office...


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

I've had a great deal of success with Dr. Tim's, both for jump starting tanks and for emergency situations where I apparently lost some of my bio filter. I always keep some on hand just in case. At $15 a bottle for a 30-gallon tank, it's worth it to me . . .


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

hollyfish2000 said:


> I've had a great deal of success with Dr. Tim's, both for jump starting tanks and for emergency situations where I apparently lost some of my bio filter. I always keep some on hand just in case. At $15 a bottle for a 30-gallon tank, it's worth it to me . . .


See, and Dr. Tim's did nothing for me. I tried to use it to jumpstart a fishless cycle. However, it still took 5 weeks to hit 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites.

If your in a bind (or impatient), I suppose it's worth a shot. However, I wouldn't place a bunch of fish on order and bank on one of these products to do the cycling for me. The results are way too random for that.


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## fishonbikes (Dec 29, 2009)

scrubjay wrote:

[/quote]It's great to hear that there is some success with the live-bac and detox products. Are there any fish stores that have an ongoing tank set up for the purpose of selling seeded media to customers with which to start their tanks? It wouldn't even need to have fish, just an ammonia doser. And if not, wouldn't this seem like a logical thing to do? Pardon me while I go to the patent office...

This makes perfect sense. However, when I went to LFS I really didn't see a tank running for that and I was reluctant to ask someone. I think that reading what people say on here and what you here from you LFS confuses and in some cases intimidates people. So they do what they feel is right with the knowledge they have on hand and try it. Hopefully we find it in ourselves to keep investigating and learning more to ensure we become successful fish tank owners.

Think about it........ :dancing:


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## fishonbikes (Dec 29, 2009)

jrf wrote:



> See, and Dr. Tim's did nothing for me. I tried to use it to jumpstart a fishless cycle. However, it still took 5 weeks to hit 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites.
> 
> If your in a bind (or impatient), I suppose it's worth a shot. However, I wouldn't place a bunch of fish on order and bank on one of these products to do the cycling for me. The results are way too random for that.
> 
> Maybe Dr. Tims didn't work. There could be some variables in there, but one thing is for certain, the Sure Start worked for me. If you have read the beginning of this thread I started it 2 days ago when my Ammonia and Nitrite (0) zeroed out for the first time. I checked the Nitrate tonight along with the other 3 and it also read zero. So I'm am convinced it will work when all other parameters have been addressed.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Are there any fish stores that have an ongoing tank set up for the purpose of selling seeded media to customers with which to start their tanks?


Probably not because most can make more profit by selling bacterial starters. They gotta eat too. It must be challenging to mix the desire to give good advice with the need to earn a living. I'm glad this is just a hobby for me.



> i think it may be assumed that larger tanks have larger bio loads, therefore more bacteria, larger bottle.


That is the assumption, I'm sure, but I think it's a profit driven convenient assumption. And only comes into play when intending to fully stock. Better that they stop assuming and recommend purchase quantity by initial stocking load. Of course then people may buy less.


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

I would never pay money for a bacteria substitute/jump starter/ replacement/alternative..........whatever they are called.
I would however pay money for some seeded media if I had to cycle a tank quickly or in an emergency.


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## fishonbikes (Dec 29, 2009)

It's all about the Benjimans no doubt for the LFS. That is a very good reason why when we go there as rookies they don't tell us what to do unless we are buying the whole set up. Then they will tell you how to use what they suggested.


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## fishonbikes (Dec 29, 2009)

smellsfishy1 wrote:



> I would never pay money for a bacteria substitute/jump starter/ replacement/alternative..........whatever they are called.
> I would however pay money for some seeded media if I had to cycle a tank quickly or in an emergency.
> 
> Okay, if you were in a hurry how would you do it? I haven't read another way to do it than fishless and wait weeks or do what I did and add the bacteria in a bottle.


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## kriskm (Dec 1, 2009)

I think the advantage of live media (or bacteria in a bottle) comes from the fact that bacteria double in number at a constant rate. So at the beginning of a cycle, when you're just counting on bacteria in the air, it takes a long time for that doubling to result in a decent chunk of bacteria. You're going from one bacteria, to two bacteria, to four bacteria, every (insert right number of hours here). Very slow. However, once you have a decent chunk, like millions (billions?), then it continues to double in number every (insert right number of hours here), and you get up to speed fast. Sorry I don't know the doubling rate.

My LFS sells bogwood from their tanks, so you can get some bacteria there, but no live media.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Okay, if you were in a hurry how would you do it? I haven't read another way to do it than fishless and wait weeks or do what I did and add the bacteria in a bottle.


Fishless with media dropped into the new filters from established filters. Fishless isn't necessarily a slow process. But, it will usually take several days to cycle fishless while seeding with establshed media.

If you need instant cycle, no guarantees, but best bet is to move the entire filter or as much media as you can. If you want to spend on the stuff in the bottle, go ahead, but it can be hit and miss. Try one that someone has had success with. Be ready to do water changes, and don't feed if you get ammonia or nitrite spikes. Lack of food for a few days will not harm them. Feeding them could kill them if the biofilter is not established.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

see if the lfs was smart, they would create and sell predone cycle kits

premeasured ammonia doses, seeded filter material like some ceramic rings (which their cycle tank could use as substrate and in the flters), and instructions

they could easily sell this for slightly larger cost than the bottles and make more money off of them since, one they would not sit on a shelf and expire, two very little overhead to them, and three, so many people don't believe in the bottle, but swear by the bio media

i understand the difficulty of keeping a well established tank cycled, but if they just spend the extra attention to that tank and keep some very hardy fish, and try hard to keep them disease free i think it will be worth it, everytime you sell a tank you sell this stuff to them, it's good advice and proffitable

i'd sell it for a juiced up price on the ceramic rings right out of the box


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## gfry (Oct 20, 2009)

Let's start our own business. We can call them BioJump kits and charge $25 a pop. I know I'd be happy to spend $25 for something that is pretty much guaranteed to cycle a new tank in a week instead of 4 to 6 weeks if used properly.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

gfry said:


> I know I'd be happy to spend $25 for something that is pretty much guaranteed to cycle a new tank in a week instead of 4 to 6 weeks if used properly.


Its called SafeStart aka biospira.


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## gfry (Oct 20, 2009)

fox said:


> gfry said:
> 
> 
> > I know I'd be happy to spend $25 for something that is pretty much guaranteed to cycle a new tank in a week instead of 4 to 6 weeks if used properly.
> ...


I said "guaranteed".


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

The manager at my LFS was totally willing to let me buy some used filter floss from them. Then in the same conversation, he told me how they recently had to treat all of their tanks with copper to stop some sort of outbreak. To that, I said Ã¢â‚¬Å"Uh, you know I think IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m going to pass on the filter floss.Ã¢â‚¬Â


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## gfry (Oct 20, 2009)

Two LFS near me (the only two I'd really trust) refused to sell me some seeded media. Both of these places have very clean, healthy looking tanks. Their reasoning was that they didn't want to chance being held responsible if I lost any fish to disease/parasite, etc. I can completely understand their thinking.


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## fishonbikes (Dec 29, 2009)

jrf wrote:



> The manager at my LFS was totally willing to let me buy some used filter floss from them. Then in the same conversation, he told me how they recently had to treat all of their tanks with copper to stop some sort of outbreak. To that, I said Ã¢â‚¬Å"Uh, you know I think IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m going to pass on the filter floss.Ã¢â‚¬Â


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

once you already own a tank, cycling future tanks is easy


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