# White Knight Ahli



## bigstorm

See the link below to a pic of my new White Knight Ahli. I am looking for some info on them as there isnt much on this site about them. Are they a hybrid, cross or line bred? Either way, this pic doesnt do him justice, his entire body is an irredensent blue and contrasts very well with the black sand in my tank

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/ ... 0_4035.jpg


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## grail63

I have seen Sciaenochromis fryeri albino which are not hybrids but true albino but they also have the redish pink eye like many other albino animals show. From your picture though yours does not seem to have the attribute. This could be due to hybridization or line breed for this specific coloration. It would be realy hard to say. I would talk to the lfs or breader where you got the fish from to see if they could relay any info to you.


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## chapman76

As far as I know the White Knight is a hybrid. It's a nice fish, but like Albino Taiwan Reefs, they're thought to be hybrids.

Just because they have a pink eye doesn't make them a pure form. My ATR has a pink/red eye. As far as I know, they're a hybrid though. I have seen no proof that either the White Knight or ATRs are pure fish.


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## TheeMon

wow that pic makes that fish look stunning


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## Fogelhund

grail63 said:


> I have seen Sciaenochromis fryeri albino which are not hybrids but true albino but they also have the redish pink eye like many other albino animals show. From your picture though yours does not seem to have the attribute. This could be due to hybridization or line breed for this specific coloration. It would be realy hard to say. I would talk to the lfs or breader where you got the fish from to see if they could relay any info to you.


I believe that the fryeri albinos are hybrids as well. They've been around for several decades now... so it is impossible to trace the lineage back. I bred some albino fryeri back in the late 80's, and ended up with some Peacock looking, non albino fry out of them.


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## grail63

Fogelhund said:


> I believe that the fryeri albinos are hybrids as well. They've been around for several decades now... so it is impossible to trace the lineage back. I bred some albino fryeri back in the late 80's, and ended up with some Peacock looking, non albino fry out of them.


One of my breaders that I frequent has them. When I asked if they where hybrids he said no that these where naturaly accuring albino varity of fryeri that had been line breed to produce the varient. They looked like these


















to me the body shape looks like fryeri. I have never owned any myself. maybe the white knight is a different variety? I do know that most every species can have a natural occuring albino varient. Rare though it may be.


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## Fogelhund

grail63 said:


> One of my breaders that I frequent has them. When I asked if they where hybrids he said no that these where naturaly accuring albino varity of fryeri that had been line breed to produce the varient.


That's what I thought too... until my "pure" albino fryeri started producing "Peacock" babies. Unless someone has a real claim, of producing albino's from Wild caught specimens, or fish with 100% known Wild lineage, I cannot believe that the albino fryeri are anything but the descendants of the hybrids available in the 80's. These, and their albino "siblings" managed to be very widely distributed throughout the hobby.

I have pictures of these fish, and they certainly didn't look any different than regular fryeri either.


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## grail63

Fogelhund said:


> That's what I thought too... until my "pure" albino fryeri started producing "Peacock" babies. Unless someone has a real claim, of producing albino's from Wild caught specimens, or fish with 100% known Wild lineage, I cannot believe that the albino fryeri are anything but the descendants of the hybrids available in the 80's. These, and their albino "siblings" managed to be very widely distributed throughout the hobby.
> 
> I have pictures of these fish, and they certainly didn't look any different than regular fryeri either.


This is why I stayed away from them. The hobbiest in me said "wow these fish are gorgeous I should get some" while the purist in me had some doubt about their lineage. I did not ask the breader as to where he got the fish. This is why I won't buy any albino varient. I did have some non albino Cyprichromis produce some albino fry once which was cool. They did not live very long though unfortunately.


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## bigstorm

So, i gather that these are hybrid/cross bred. I have no problem with that. I actually got it from a very reputable breeder close to me. He has won many awards and i think this is a great looking cichlid. Thanks for the info, now i see why there isnt much info on this site about them.


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## Fogelhund

Fundamentally, there is nothing wrong with keeping, breeding or selling hybrids, at least of commercially known strains. By this, I suggest the OB Peacock, OB fryeri, Eureka Peacocks etc...

The problem that I have, is when people breed these fish with normal strains... such as an albino fryeri, to a regular fryeri. Let's suppose they are all normal looking, and someone sells them to the stores.. well they are hybrid fry, but who is to know? Hybrids are part of the hobby, and there will likely be more Ornamentalization than less as time goes by, but please ensure that these Hybrid strains are kept "pure", in that they only breed with themselves, as opposed to the actual pure fish.

That is where I have issue with albino siblings, more than a likely hybrid albino specimen itself. The albino sibling is never going to be questioned, while the albino itself cannot be mistaken for anything but what it is.


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## bigstorm

I dont breed any fish, only 2 show tanks for me


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## Fogelhund

bigstorm said:


> I dont breed any fish, only 2 show tanks for me


When that's the case, all you want is pretty ornamental fish. If your not a purist, who cares if the fish is a pure strain, wild, or anything else... as long as it is pretty, and if you get a nice one, they are attractive fish.


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## bossfish

sorry to bump an old thread but I wanted to share a couple of stories I have heard about the albino fryeri. before I do Though I actually saw the fish in the upper photo several years ago and the picture does not even come close to showing the amazing color of that fish. It had a lot more blue than showed up in the picture.

According to "legend" the last picture was actually taken on a boat in lake malawi. There is a larger version of that picture that shows the side of the boat and some of the water but it also has the name of the photagrapher so the water was removed when someone edited the photo. I've also seen another picture of an albino Fryeri that was supposedly taken at lake malawi imediately after capture. the fish in the second picture is actually being held by what apears to be a native diver which in my opinion makes it a little more credible than the first. Both pictures could be hoaxes but I hope not.

I also heard that someone had them about 20 years ago and they were stolen and reapeared about ten years later in the hobby. Trickling in from untraceable sources to protect the thiefs identity. I don't know any of this is actually true but I've heard both stories from multiple sources who I believe are telling the story as they had heard it.


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## chapman76

I'll never believe it is a pure fish until someone credible shows me a picture of one swimming in Lake Malawi. Not a picture of someone holding one.

The odds of an albino fish making it to adulthood in the wild is almost slim to none I'd imagine.


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## tirzo13

the odds of ANY fish making it to adulthood are slim, let alone albino.

Over the lifetime of a female fish in the lake she will only have 2 fry make it to adulthood.
Out of all her spawns in her life only 2 will make it to adulthood.

some females may have 10 fry make, but some females will have zero.

does not matter if its a fish that is a substrate spawner having 1000s of babies, or a mouthbooder having much less.
Only 2 will make it.
ever.

so when you understand that, the odds of a albino making it are incredible.
not impossible, because we do see it, just 1 in millions.

Of course once fish make it to an aquarium, the odds are increased.
whereas in the wild a female is lucky if 2 of her fry ever make it to adulthood, in a tank, a female can have 90% of her fry make it.
so with that, we WILL see albino's of species make it, without having to have been derived from another species.
though crossing is the easiest way to do it.


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## Fogelhund

bossfish said:


> I also heard that someone had them about 20 years ago and they were stolen and reapeared about ten years later in the hobby.


This partially true. They were in the hobby 20 years ago. My experiences as per above were from that time. They could not have been stolen, as they were owned by quite a few hobbyists.


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## Number6

I'm pretty sure I saw one on the grassy knoll...


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## bossfish

"The odds of an albino fish making it to adulthood in the wild is almost slim to none I'd imagine."

True but it does happen. there is an issue of cichlid news where a wild albino cichlid was caught on a collecting trip to Cuatro cinenigas in mexico south of Texas. It's not a white knight but it at least proves that the possibility exists for a wild albino to survive.


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## bossfish

I think stories like that enrich the hobby. Even if they aren't true they add a sense of mystery and exitement like some sort of mythical fish. I don't know if they really exist in the lake or not but I'd like to think that maybe someday I'll see proof if it exists.


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## MCKP

More albinos than ever are being seen in the world today... from bears, to moose, cats and dolphins.......so why not african cichlids??

We have only explored a tiny portion of the worlds creatures.... imagine the 'new' creatures that have yet to be found.... or if they ever will be.... the possibilities are endless.....


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## DJRansome

I think what Fogelhund is suggesting is that not all of them may have their origins in the wild despite claims to the contrary. Of course, maybe you also watched a video of Larry Johnson catching them while diving in Lake Malawi.


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## superfly4477

grail63 said:


> Fogelhund said:
> 
> 
> 
> maybe the I do know that most every species can have a natural occuring albino varient. Rare though it may be.
Click to expand...

I was just reading this, but I have a female labdichromis perlmut that looks to be completely white. It is kind of odd.


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## benl.1036

The fish in the picture looks to be a fryeri X peacock mix of some sort.


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## ken kennedy

Has anyone tried breeding the white fryeri to the normal blue one?

With the black iris it is not an albino.


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## ken kennedy

Speculating. Maybe what happened to the blue fryeri turning white with mild blue color is similar to what happened to the Steller"s Blue Jay http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Stellers_Jay.jpg turning white with blue tone, amelanotic Steller's Jay http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content-n ... /1245/FIG1

The amelanotic Steller's Jay lost its melanin pigmentation resulting in the reflection of all wavelengths of light. Blue structural color is still being reflected but it is being washed out by white light.

Amelanotic Steller's Jay scientific paper: http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/full/209/7/1245

If someone will be breeding the white to a normal blue, I'd like to know if there will be another phenotype, a third, in the F1 or F2 in both male and female. The normal females are silver gray. Is the female of the white morph also white, normal silver gray or another color?

In another fish, the angelfish. A blue angelfish that looses melanin pigmentation (by combining with gold) becomes a metallic white Platinum angelfish. The Plat angel still has mild blue iridescence.

Another fish, the Jack Dempsey has the Electric Blue and Gold variants. Combining blue + gold- loss of melanin, in theory should produce "white" with mild blue colored JDs.


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## Fogelhund

Of course, the probability that you are dealing with hybrid genetics throws a bit of a curve ball into the whole equation too.


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## Kinsol

heres a picture of mine *** wanted them for some time and know im flooded in fry


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## CaseyV

On another note, looks like you have a holding lab in the background! congrats


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## TheBanker

*Kinsol* you posted a pic of your albino, isn't that different from this "white knight" ahli? in the pictures on page one the eyes are dark and not red. Hybrid or not, i think its a neat looking fish, if i came across one, i think i would add it to my all male setup just for kicks.


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## promoe

i have seen this discussion on a cpl different sites..we have an albino eletric ahli and was advertised as the white knight.but if you research it the white knight has dark eyes not the red.IMO the white knight sounds wayyyy cooler than the albino ahli.


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## Kinsol

I just saw this site http://www.cichlidlovers.com/s_fryeri_albino.htm
and the eyes seem to be black never seen one like this before if anyone has one like this hopefully theyll post some pics


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## Guest

The eyes aren't black they are a very dark red. The same effect is with Protomelas 'steveni taiwan' Taiwanee Reef ALBINOs their eyes appear black from a distance or in photos but actually are a very very dark red.


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## Kinsol

yeah i noticed that I moved mine to another tank and was paying attention to his eyes


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## ken kennedy

ken kennedy said:


> If someone will be breeding the white to a normal blue, I'd like to know if there will be another phenotype, a third, in the F1 or F2 in both male and female. The normal females are silver gray. Is the female of the white morph also white, normal silver gray or another color?


Gold and albino are both melanin depigmentation and produce similar results in angelfish when combined with blue.

In the Greshakei, the albino blue male is white; the albino female is "peach/orange" or "golden" with red eyes.

Are the albino (not white) blue fryeri also white? and the albino females "golden" with red eyes?

I'm speculating the female of the White Fryeri male will be golden with dark eyes-being non-albino.


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## electyellowdude

nice fish!! also looks like in the bottom of the pic you have a holding lab.  :thumb: :fish:


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## Fogelhund

ken kennedy said:


> Are the albino (not white) blue fryeri also white? and the albino females "golden" with red eyes?
> 
> I'm speculating the female of the White Fryeri male will be golden with dark eyes-being non-albino.


No the albinos are all white.


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## BenHugs

Now I want one


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## inda-jones

chapman76 said:


> I'll never believe it is a pure fish until someone credible shows me a picture of one swimming in Lake Malawi. Not a picture of someone holding one.
> 
> The odds of an albino fish making it to adulthood in the wild is almost slim to none I'd imagine.


Just a thought: If there are hybrids and cross species spawn naturally occurring in an aquarium why wouldn't there be in a lake?

I'm sure most of the hybrids and crosses that are between species contained within the same lake could be found in the wild. Does that make hybrids pure?


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## Fogelhund

inda-jones said:


> Does that make hybrids pure?


No.


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## DJRansome

inda-jones said:


> Just a thought: If there are hybrids and cross species spawn naturally occurring in an aquarium why wouldn't there be in a lake?


According to those who dive there regularly and study cichlids, hybrids in the lake are rare. This is because given a choice, the fish are likely to choose their own species to mate with.

When we combine fish in our artificial glass boxes with inappropriate tank mates, we are creating the unnatural hybrids. That's why we must be responsible for them.

As chapman76 pointed out an albino in the wild is not likely to survive to reproduce and natural albinos are rare in the first place. The albinos in the industry are likely created by purposely hybridizing and/or line breeding the fish and may not be natural albinos.


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## BoilerFan

Kinsol said:


> I just saw this site http://www.cichlidlovers.com/s_fryeri_albino.htm
> and the eyes seem to be black never seen one like this before if anyone has one like this hopefully theyll post some pics


It's been a few months since this post, but I picked one up a couple weeks ago so I figured I'd post a couple pics. The eyes on mine are most definitely black.




























Does not appear to be an albino to me. I don't have the answer to the whole riddle, but I don't think it is an albino.


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## cichlid_baby

White Knights are supposed to have the dark eyes..

whereas.. albinos.. will have the usual red eyes.


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## westfieldnj

Bumping this post after 2 years...

Fogel answered above that the albino's are all white, but I'm looking for a bit of clarification:

What do White Knight (white body, black eyes) females look like?

What do Fryeri Albino (white body, red eyes) females look like?

Thank -


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## Fogelhund

What do White Knight (white body, black eyes) females look like? --> White Body, black eyes

What do Fryeri Albino (white body, red eyes) females look like? --> White body, red eyes.

Basically they are the same as the males, but female finnage, less irridescence.


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## tirzo13

i have had both White Knights with black eyes. both males and females white with black eyes.
And i have had albino electric blues. They had more of a slight yellow tint with red eyes.

I have seen hybrid cichlids while diving in Malawi, as had others including Konings.
I have seen hybrid cichlids in south america.
I don't know maybe 1 out of 5000 fish seen?

I know albino birds, mammals, frogs and reptiles have been found in the wild.
i can't off hand think of any fish i recall being found in the wild, oh wait, i recall an albino whale shark off of Galapogos.

I know the claim that albino fish would be quickly picked off by predators in the wild.
Im sure in a shallow river, creek, or pond they wouldn't stand a chance, however there are plenty of white labs, pearlmutt labs, pearl callianos and other white fish swimming around in lake malawi, so white in itself can survive.
I think more of the problem they face is that they are just weaker fish, and other fish don't really want to breed with them as they don't recognize them as self.
In an aquarium, they of course breed with whatever is closer like them.


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