# scratching all the time?



## t.karkoulis (Aug 21, 2008)

Hello all,

I have 4 malawi cichlids, 2 pseudotropheus acei and 2 ladibochromis yellow (both couples, i think).

also i used to have a pleco till recently 

Here in Greece, due to rainfall and i dont know what else, during summer, they divert the tap waters to provide tap water, while at same time announcing that the water is not to drink because of shortage etc.

so heres what happened. I tested the tap water, its general hardness and KH were too high. At the same time, i test aquarium water and it got nitrites (probably from the previous change, 3-4 days ago). My tank was running for 6 months without any nitrites ever.

I had to do water changes to reduce the nitrites, and at the same time, to reduce the hardness a bit i used a Ph/Kh minus liquid. after 2-3 water changes the nitrites dropped and i stopped chanigng water. And yesterday (which is 2 days after stopping the water changes) my pleco died.

All this time however, the malawi are scratching wherever, all the time. I noticed that and thats why i tested the water, to find nitrites.

Can this be a water problem? As in a substance i cant detect with the water tests, that is hurting them? If i buy bottled water from the supermarket, lets say, do i have a better chance of fixing the problem, rather than be patient till summer ends and tap waters return to normal?

Thank you.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

It does sound like you're having some problems, but let's get a bit more background info first.

What is your usual tank maintenance routine on the tank?

Are you using a good dechlorinator that is effective against both chlorine and chloramines?

What kind of substrate do you have in the tank? How often do you churn the substrate and vacuum it? Have you moved any rocks around or disturbed the substrate recently?

Any redness in the gill area of the fish?

What is your ph? Ammonia? Nitrates?

How old are your test kits?

Are they liquid reagent kits or strips?


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## t.karkoulis (Aug 21, 2008)

ok let me give you a general description, sorry for not doing so in the first place.

Tank setup:

- 240L 
- white sand substrate
- no plants
- airstone under the sand
- rocky decoration - Lava rocks
- filter: Eheim2224 canister filter.
- temp: 26-27'C

Water:
- Tests: JBL strips (cant find liquid test easily in local pet store) - not expired
- GH: > 19'd
- KH: 10'd
- PH: 6.8
- NO3: 2-3mg/l
- NO2: 0mg/l

thats all i can tell from these strips. Remember i just stopped doing water changes for the nitrites/nitrates, they may come up again the following days. they used to be 0 for a long time though.

my tank maintenance happens every week-10 days. I vaccum the bottom as well, change around 20-25% water

Dechlorinator: Tetra AquaSafe (dont know if im allowed to write brands on this forum)
I used to churn every time i changed water since the malawi dig a lot. but im not doing that after the problems started.

Cant see redness in gill area, would it be noticeable with the bright colours etc?

thanks for helping out!


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

You can usually see redness or raised scales in the gill area if the flashing is focused on that area.

Zero nitrates aren't really possible unless it's a brand new tank or a heavily planted tank. So, your test kit/results are definitely in question. I would get a second opinion on those water parameters, and also get your nitrites checked.

I'm not sure what meds you have available to you, and at this point, it's hard to say whether your problems are irritants from the water quality, or external parasites...

If the water quality is bad, then cleaning it up should do the trick. (I'm not sure about your dechlorinator, but I don't think it's that effective on chloramines - and with a rainy season, your water company may be adding extras that they don't normally add.) Read the bottle carefully and see what it says.

If you treat for external parasites in an effort to stop the flashing and it's irritated from the nitrates/water, it could make things worse. And, if you find that the water parameters are right, then you're going to need to do daily water changes, no matter which route you take. You'd just have to do them before adding the daily medication.

Get another opinion on the water quality and then we'll see what we can figure out. For now, you might add some aquarium salt to the tank.


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## t.karkoulis (Aug 21, 2008)

Thanks a lot, i'll get down to business with aquarium salt and getting myself some better tests.

I'll let you know of any findings i find. Some people told me to treat with sera mycopur which is cupric chloride / cupric sulfate. Thats to treat fungal infections eh?

thanks for the info !!! :dancing:


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

That would be for bacterial/fungal infection. Just not sure that's what you need! I don't really see any evidence of fungus, or infection just yet...


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## t.karkoulis (Aug 21, 2008)

ok then, i'll let you know as soon as i test the water with some proper tests. In the meantime, should i continue doing frequent water changes or stick to once a week-10 days?


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## gordonrp (Mar 23, 2005)

PH of 6.8 doesn't sound good, esp if you're testing with those strips as it could be about 6.0 as those strips are quite wide range /varied results.

Get a better test kit


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## t.karkoulis (Aug 21, 2008)

gordonrp said:


> PH of 6.8 doesn't sound good, esp if you're testing with those strips as it could be about 6.0 as those strips are quite wide range /varied results.
> 
> Get a better test kit


wow i didnt know the deviation was that big... I'll go get good tests asap. Would you recommend a kit like the Tetra Analyset ?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Keep up the frequent water changes...

I'm not familiar with that test kit, but I prefer the liquid reagent kits over the strips.

Don't worry about trying to alter that ph right now...You've got to make sure the water is okay, and should you buffer it to increase the ph, then you're still going to have to deal with the frequent water changes if the water is off, so it's just going to cause alot of fluctuation, which is harder on the fish than a lower ph is to start with!

How long have these fish been in this tank?

Another thing you may need to focus on once you get the water straight is that these are not pairing fish, and trying to keep them as pairs may lead to severe problems down the line. Do you know what species you have?


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## t.karkoulis (Aug 21, 2008)

update: saturday here, so no proper test purchased yet. on it, though.

i noticed that the peudotropheus acei are doing better, they also flirting (big one chases smaller one all the time, then at some points they sort of "rub" against each other - that a sign of male/female, correct?)

the labidochromis yellow arent so yello though. Their black fins are vibrant as they are supposed to be, but their body is like bee-ish, bright yellow-darker yellow-bright yellow-darker yellow etc etc.

Any info on that one?


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## t.karkoulis (Aug 21, 2008)

cichlidaholic said:


> Keep up the frequent water changes...
> 
> I'm not familiar with that test kit, but I prefer the liquid reagent kits over the strips.
> 
> ...


hehe we replied at the same time.

I have 2 species, acei and labido yellow. i think they are male/female (labidochromis indications from fin colouring, and the acei are behaving like male/female - shaking in front of the other etc.)

note though, thats all i find in google, no personal experience yet. I had them for a couple months now, i bought them very young, the ones i call "males" grew much faster than the other ones. and they are the ones that behave like males too. Again, i might be wrong, no spawning took place yet so i cant tell for sure.

no pairing means i need to add more members?  i was kinda hoping to get 2 blue zebras, but i think i got room for 3 of each kind. What do you suggest?

whoops, there we go. scratching again, swimming around and scratching, doing a couple or "scratch rounds" then resuming their normal activities, chasing each other.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Behaviour and size aren't indicative of sex with these fish, unfortunately! It would make our lives much easier if it were!

They are "harem" breeders. meaning you need multiple females for each male of a species. (Not as important with Yellow labs and acei, since they are less aggressive than most, but they do require a large enough tank to coexist in.) A male will harrass a lone female of his species to death.

Your water column won't matter as much as the "footprint" of the tank. What are the dimensions?


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## t.karkoulis (Aug 21, 2008)

cichlidaholic said:


> Behaviour and size aren't indicative of sex with these fish, unfortunately! It would make our lives much easier if it were!
> 
> They are "harem" breeders. meaning you need multiple females for each male of a species. (Not as important with Yellow labs and acei, since they are less aggressive than most, but they do require a large enough tank to coexist in.) A male will harrass a lone female of his species to death.
> 
> Your water column won't matter as much as the "footprint" of the tank. What are the dimensions?


I read somewhere that you can indicate the sexes if for instance you see fish A shaking in front of fish B and always chasing it etc. However, that doesnt matter, as long as we make sure their health isnt in danger.

My tank dimensions are: 121cm x 41cm x 55cm ~= 48" x 16.2" x 22"

Still waiting on those "liquids" for testing the water, i didnt bother getting a set of strips till the proper ones arrive, should be here monday or tuesday, so i'll let you know whats going on with the water.


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## t.karkoulis (Aug 21, 2008)

ok heres a proper water test:

Ph 7.5
Ammonia 0.5
NO2 0
NO3 0
PO4 0
KH 12

thats all i could do so far, cause he reagents made me a bit itchy and i panicked


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

You're going to need to keep up the water changes until things level out. You want zero readings for ammonia and nitrite, (usually the nitrite will rise following the ammonia) and nitrates are good anywhere around 20 - I don't get concerned until they get up around 40. If your test kits are working properly, you should always get some sort of nitrate reading except in a brand new tank or a very heavily planted tank. :thumb:


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## t.karkoulis (Aug 21, 2008)

also another update:

scratching has been reduced considerably, i keep up the water changes (yes i may have tested something, or translated something, as 0, for nitrite/nitrate - i remember not being sure about 1 of the the two).

I wrote in the initial post that the pleco died. And i thought it was the water. Well, as it turns out, he was probably killed by the evil pseudo acei 
I tried to use the pleco from my other tank - thank god i was there to pull him out in time, he would be gone too.

That said, when should i check again? Also, these tests, they dont look like they'll last a lot. its like 25ml bottles, and i need 6 drops for each test. Is that the case?

Thanks again for the Help! ! !


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I'm not at home right now to check and see what size bottles my test kit are, but they last longer than I trust them to be correct. (I only use them when I have problems, and only keep them for 6 months once they are opened.)

I would check the water daily, and then determine my water change schedule.


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## t.karkoulis (Aug 21, 2008)

buuhuuu -1 yellow lab. i think because of that bloat thing. it lost appetite at first for 2 days, and was shy etc. then it was like doing rapid moves here and there, and thats it. 

in any case, the ammonia dropped, no nitries phospates etc.

KH: 10
ph:7-7.5
but! gh is insane! i think around 25 (+/- 1)!!!

what to do now? thats tap water problem i think. Is that a huge problem?


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