# The Frankenstein Aquarium



## izabella87

Hi everyone!
This is my first post on this forum, i'm quite new to cichlids.
Lately i really fell for those beautiful fish and decided to build an aquarium to host a variety of them

Here are the parameters of this tank:

It's made out of 12 panels of tempered glass, reinforced with silicon in-between these panels, inside and outside, and double tapped with metal braces all around the tank.
L: 152 cm W: 76 cm H: 36 cm = 108 gallons.
Substrate is a mix of aragonite sand & regular play sand where the big rocks are.

Right now it's cycling with a dozen of Malaysian trumpet snails and hopefully soon I can put in a few cichlids. 
Will update once there's something relevant to update lol.. Like fish...


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## fusion

Love it :thumb:


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## Mr.Dempsey

Tank looks awesome!


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## overstockeddemasoni

may I ask ur filtration


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## izabella87

Fluval 205  Just something to get the water going.


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## fusion

Have you thought about fishless Cycling? not sure how well the snails will help with cycling, here is the link to it
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/f ... _cycle.php


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## izabella87

Thank you so much !
me who is terrible with cycling.. reading this up right now !


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## izabella87

and..... drum rolls..... the fish are in !









more pics soon


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## fusion

Still love it and i bet your fish do too, good job


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## JimA

Thats a really cool set up, nice job! Not sure I would want to try and catch a fish in there though..


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## PaNiK

Very nice!


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## Dawg2012

Nice Tank Izabella. Different and interesting.

I never thought about growing bamboo out the back, I may have to give this a try.

What did you stock it with?


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## dsouthworth

Your tank fully cycled in 7 days?


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## izabella87

i shall answer questions now
so in there i got 8 african cichlids

1 yellow lab, 1 acei, 1 venustus, 1 red peacock, 2 jewels, 2 dunno what...

Yes its well cycled, i used lots of water from my other 4 tanks and some bottled bacteria supplement. 
here's some new pics


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## a7oneal

Dawg2012 said:


> Nice Tank Izabella. Different and interesting.
> 
> I never thought about growing bamboo out the back, I may have to give this a try.
> 
> What did you stock it with?


I always think it is a cool idea, and it certainly looks pretty good here. As a matter of fact, many of our common aquarium plants grow as emergent (wet or partially submerged) vegetation, and it is something I wanted to try with Anubias.


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## drexel187

Cool setup! Watch for jumpers with that open top!


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## izabella87

Hey Guys/Girls

*** not update for a lil while now. Was nothing really so interesting asides a lil ick outburst haha...
I got some new fish now, even one female about to have bbs I think. I've also added plants, which my fish dont eat! Probably because i feed them way to generously.. yeah I know they all got fat bellies.. haha... its just so adorable to watch them eat.. 
The water is clear also Finally!!! Like what 2 months later? lol...
Got 2 cat fish of an unknown genus, but I will add pics here bellow so you can guess what these fish are all.. I know i got many cichlid hybrids, I dont mind having them, they pretty as any pure breed ones. Also got a lil weird one.. Anyhow, here's pics that will speak for themselves!








My lil weird one!







New seashells all over







Right side of tank







Left side of tank







Cat Fish or something.. Got 2 like that







Lots of fat fellas







New Jewel Cichlid







Red Peacock,Jewe, And Labs







My First venustus, there a bigger one in the tank, and the dominant boss of the front of the tank.. fat n authoritary







Full view of the massive Frankenstein tank haha..







Yellow Lab in the seashells







On the right pregnant gal







Dominant Jewel Cichlid







One of my 4 yellow labs


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## izabella87

I've got some new fish and no idea the names of em.. and my baby girl still holding eggs.. Told clerk at pet store I had a pregnant cichlid in the tank, he said here, let me show you how to squeeze eggs out n proceed with this situation.. i went like, Guy all is gonna b fine, I'll wait till she spits em out.. Seriously no way in **** im touching a fish especially not to squeeze out eggs lol...
Hmm asides that, plants aren't getting eaten at all, wohoo ! And all is well!


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## izabella87

Hey there !
So it seems my population is gonna soon expand..
Got my holding female in the pic right above,
My jewel cichlids behave quite loving lately.. and these two are really getting it on..







I know Imma end up with a bunch of hybrids lol...
so I took outta retirement my 10 gallon tank for the future babies !!
Here's a few daytime/nighttime shots of that tiny tank.


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## LouIE82

Your tank is crazy! I love it.


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## izabella87

Thanks LouIE82

Finally My Zebra female gave birth ! at last !!! here's a video 



And my Jewel Cichlids also spawned !! Here's two videos D
With the parents in Main Tank: 



In their new baby Tank Home: 



Enjoy, And feel Free to comment !!!


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## Jake Levi

Great looking tank !

I especially like the top cross pieces for braces, great place for plants !

Did you get a good buy on the glass? How'd you come up with your dimensions plan?

The workmanship is excellent !

Re cycling, that went well, I go a slower route with goldfish, and yes I know that they like cooler water but obviously also like warm water which is what they breed in, anyhow, no one has told mine that they do best in cool water, I also find that they are excellent dither fish, and great with small cichlids in teaching them to eat. In a year or so when all my tanks are well cycled my present half dozen will find themselves in my outside garden pools.

I am looking forward to hearing of your progress reports on your tank.

Jake


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## nmcichlid-aholic

Hey Iza - What's the bottom of your tank made out of? Is it glass? Because the photos make it look like you set the walls on a plywood base or something. Just curious. Anyway, I think it's looking good. Watch out for those jewels - they can get fairly mean when they pair up and want to breed. Anybody that makes the mistake of getting too close to their territory will get a pounding for their trouble.


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## Steve C

I like it Iza, neat lookin' tank.


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## izabella87

nmcichlid-aholic said:


> Hey Iza - What's the bottom of your tank made out of? Is it glass? Because the photos make it look like you set the walls on a plywood base or something. Just curious. Anyway, I think it's looking good. Watch out for those jewels - they can get fairly mean when they pair up and want to breed. Anybody that makes the mistake of getting too close to their territory will get a pounding for their trouble.


Hi!
Its made of tempered glass n underneath it's plywood.

As for the Jewels.. *my preciousssss*, they are not mean, just territorial and protective when they breed. Other fish understand it and dont venture in their corner of the tank.
Now that their babies are in another tank they are back to normal.. 
What's awesome to see is that even the most dominant fish in my tank don't mess with jewels, no matter where they go, territory or not, they know that jewels are allowed to venture on their grounds or else... you's dead bro.. 

As a Side note; id like to also add that nearly all my fish have grown at 1/3 of their size since past 3 months; pictures coming soon


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## izabella87

Thank you Jake & Steve


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## izabella87

Hi everyone!
I just wanted to share with you a few pics of my Week-old Zebras Cichlids Babies & Frankhenstein's Residents.. !!


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## nmcichlid-aholic

Nice rusty in this bottom pic! He's got quite the lavender "glow" going...


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## izabella87

nmcichlid-aholic said:


> Nice rusty in this bottom pic! He's got quite the lavender "glow" going...


Thank you!, Him & his bro/sista?!? we s small when I bought them, 1inch max and very dark brown.. a month later 2.5 inch and lavender glow!!!


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## izabella87

Here's a video I took last nigh just to show how much the kids have grown!
And I'm intending to make a Time-lapse Video for the Zebra Cichlid Fries


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## izabella87




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## vann59

I've wondered about bamboo before for aquarium use. Since it grows fast, it should use a lot of nitrates. Not sure about whether it needs to be rooted, etc though. This appears to be rooted in the sand.


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## izabella87

Yes I put in sand and it grows happily there. Not too fast though.


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## izabella87

Yet again.. only 1.5 week after the first spawn my Jewel cichlids got busy again.. Heres two videos of the first day.. In the big tank with the daddy and then in the nursery tank.. I still left half of them with the parents so they dont wonder wtf happened..
Thanks for watching !


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## izabella87

Thank you very much !!


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## izabella87

Hey Guys/Gals

Here's a short video of 1 month old Zebra cichlids... they have grown so much n i love the colors!


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## vann59

After some research I found that actual bamboo doesn't do well when kept in water, but the 'lucky bamboo' which it looks like you have, does grow in water, but not as fast.

Looks really nice. Some of your fish will outgrow that tank though in time. Certain species can grow a foot long and need lots of room to swim.


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## izabella87

Yes you're absolutely right, its lucky bamboo !!
And for the fish.. so far they all fit in but then again its only been half a year.. once time comes i will get them a monster tank 

side note : MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!!!

And here's a video I filmed during the daylight with the very bright colors of the fish
Enjoy


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## izabella87

All bragging asides... here's my 3rd batch of baby jewel cichlids  Oh and now I got 2 pair in the tank trying to breed simultaneously.. haha.. anyone want some?


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## LouIE82

You are making me miss my old malawi tank! So much color going on, I love your tank.


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## izabella87

Ohh thank you 
Well here are some more fotos of the fish and a video of my baby jewels growing up.
















































































































And the video !!! http://youtu.be/txDxvZV_Fzc[url]


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## izabella87

the video link


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## izabella87

Hey everyone!
So i just received my new color interchangeable LEDs, they look freaking great for the fish colors, and the tank.. really cool ambiance. But i will get another 5 meter wire of them so that it can b brighter. Meanwhile I'll let you watch this video i made yesterday !




Oh and heres a video of my two Malawi Eye Biter cichlid in mating mode... kinda hard to see cuz they are camera shy but its just obvious they gonna get freaky very soon !


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## izabella87

Hello everyone ! So I got a few really pretty rocks from a freind that dismounted her cichlid tank n I took this opportunity to rescape my tank.. tell me what u thin of it 
































Also some misc pictures of my fish and their fry 
This is my Venustus couple -

















































































































































And here's few more pics of the Jewel cichlid **** 4-2 weeks old


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## Captain AP

opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn:

wait, no more pictures? :-?


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## izabella87

Yes more ) Good morning everyone!!

On this beautiful Saturday I bring you another video of the February update of Frankenstein tank, with its new residents, new lighting, new sand.. i mean i worked hard hahah..
here, thanks for watching 




And here's another video of the fry tank





















My fish with all eyes on me  
















New Red Empress Hap (I got 2 )








Taiwan Reef cichlid n a Blue dolphin


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## Captain AP

thanks!


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## izabella87

*Hurrayyyyyy! today is a big day!.. due to an over population of fry n a lack of tanks, i had no other choice than to trip my holding zebra cichlid female after her 18 days of holding. I wish i could have video taped the stripping (with a fork tip) part but I was alone on duty n concentrated all my efforts on the task! The good news is that i managed to extract all her 20+ fry successfully. They are now in a baby tank with today jewel cichlid fry batch.. (yeah i had two batches just today lol)
so here is a quick video about 30 minutes after I managed to do this operation. 
Thanks for watchinggggg )) *


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## TfnG

the tank looks awesome! do you have a build thread anywhere or go off another to make your tank?


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## izabella87

*Hey there,
Yes i do have a thread of how it all began, this same thread I've stated on the another forum for planted tank bout a year ago. Here's the link http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=185857&highlight=
Thanks for following *


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## izabella87

Hey everyone 
So even though no one ever barely comments, I'm sure you'all still following... So I made you guys a few more videos...
This is a 2 days old vid i took of my babies that are freshly born.. still with lil yolk sacks, but right at this moment they have no more of those and eat like voracious ******** all the flake foods i give them.



And this next video if a fancy video of Frankenstein with music, nice lighting, pretty fish that are growing etc.. 



Btw My Venustus & Eye Biter are both turning Very blue.. will make pics eventually soon 

Thanks for watching xxx


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## LouIE82

We're still watching. opcorn:

Good to see your tank is still doing well, you have so many fish I had before and wish I still had. Keep it up!


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## izabella87

Thank you LouIE82, I made a custom DYI filter today... wanted to upload on youtube but not sure its great sucess to share haha... will find better things to show on my 100th video


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## Iggy Newcastle

That's a wild setup. Nice video.


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## TLO1

I don't think stripping is the right way. this causes terrible stress to the fish. Why not separating them in a hang in tank???


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## izabella87

Hey ppl 
So I hit the 99th video today, video of a male Mbuna cichlid digging out a cave and defending ferociously his territory.
In general update I also have a new batch of yellow labs coming up in about 20 days.. female is holding since yesterday 
And as far as the tank goes, now i got 3 filters running.. which makes it easier on me and the multiple water changes that this overstocked tank needs. 
So enjoy the vid, comment, opinionate and have a great day !!





- In reply to the stripping comment - 
I did this for this one time because of my extreme lack of space in my tanks right now.. I normally wait it out for the female to spit them out, in this case there was no tank for a female all by herself but I had a tank of newborn fry from the jewel cichlid batch so it was either lose the fry of make her spit them out live.. Everyone is doing great btw, the female is happy to b eating again


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## izabella87

*Hi everyone!

First I'd like to say that today I've got my 100th video uploaded on YouTube 
And I would like to thank all my followers, subscribers and forum friends for your continuous support !
Here's the link to the video message for all you  and also this video has info about my new Frankenstein inhabitants; fresh water clams.




















*


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## Iggy Newcastle

I've never seen those in a tank before. What/how do you feed them?


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## izabella87

Iggy Newcastle said:


> I've never seen those in a tank before. What/how do you feed them?


Residues of food? But... More likely who do they feed. One got devoured by my cichlid, they other put in my south american tank haha... Been there done that.


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## izabella87

Big Sorry for not updating for a while.. We had some technical/moving difficulties..

All shall b explained in videos below hehe..





Basically.. I come home one day and 1/3 of Frankensteins water is on my bedroom floor.. The janitor standing outside my apartment not very happy.. lol the neighbor downstairs has a shower in his bedroom lol...Its raining fish Halleluja.lalala...

So I had to put all fish in buckets, empty tank, go get a tank 100 miles away meanwhile lost a few fish to suffocation.. put them in my boyfriends bathtub for a few days set up new tank.. [censored]ed up my water, ammonia killed 3/4 of my stock, i freaked out.. but still repaired Frankenstein... yes 2 more tubed of silicone went in it.. now its indestructible lol... meanwhile still waiting to set up a few 200-300 gallon tanks in my bfs house, which is a **** of a job itself.. So.. thats why *** been so busy and not updating.. But its getting better.. Got a new batch of fry yesterday.. and here's the video





So here is the new Frankenstein setup  With all my fry fish.. I'll show you also my other tank that has all my bigger fish.. Here you go 
































































































here's a few shots of the tank and remaining survivors of the flood n the ammonia catastrophe. There's only a few plants in there cuz of the ammonia the first ones put in there it made them rot and didnt help the water quality.

















































And here's the good news.. see fr yourself... The jewel pair has laid its first batch of eggs in this new tank 

































And just for [censored]s n giggles, thats my sphynx cat


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## izabella87

Frankenstein converted into my new grow out tank. 90% of these fish are born in my tanks the rest of just small cichlids i had from the previous tank set-up. Thanks for watching


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## Iggy Newcastle

Hope the repaired tank holds for you. That whole ordeal sounds like a nightmare... That cat kinda creeps me out.


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## izabella87

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Hope the repaired tank holds for you. That whole ordeal sounds like a nightmare... That cat kinda creeps me out.


---- CReeepy at first but he's like the sweetest thing ever.. ( sphynx cat / hairless big eyes n ears)
Yep the new tank is very fixed n functional 100%.. i was about to give up on it when i saw the seem give up but I'm not one to give up, so two silicon tubes/3 metal plates later, its successfully fixed!
Thanks for support


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## Blooper01

Beautiful tank and fish. Sorry to hear about the problems. Looks like a sweet kitty. I'm surprised he doesn't try to mess with the open tank. Guess if he ever jumped in (like my Cornish Rex did once when I opened the lid to feed them), he would jump out even faster!


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## izabella87

Blooper01 said:


> Beautiful tank and fish. Sorry to hear about the problems. Looks like a sweet kitty. I'm surprised he doesn't try to mess with the open tank. Guess if he ever jumped in (like my Cornish Rex did once when I opened the lid to feed them), he would jump out even faster!


Kitties dont mess with fishies cuz they dont wanna touch the water


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## izabella87

Speaking of the red devils... My red jewel cichlids laid eggs again, here's a pic n video


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## izabella87

Hiiii people. Me Again bombardin you yet with another video 
today i got myself two neon green jewel cichlids for my Frankhenstein tank 
here is the video and me speaking of them !!!


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## izabella87

HI everyone ! Long time no update, was rumbling and bombaling with my 10-some tanks. Got a few video update for original Frankenstein and the other tank I got my original Frankenstein residents in. Fish in the big franky are getting alll bigger(they were all mostly fry) and in the smaller franky well jewels still breeding like crazy
I aded some nice driftwood i collected from a forest for the big tank, and i also performed surgery on a blue acei cichlid who had two massive cysts on his tail and dorsal fin.. will spare the details of how i removed them.. fish is okay now, healing well, fins are growing back cyst free )
So here are a few videos below, thanks for watching -Yeah btw i actually began commenting during videos, hope im doing somewhat of a good job haha..

(for the fotos, you can follow me on instagram @enshacra87 - http://instagram.com/enshacra87/)
































































































http://www.youtube.com/watch?vhtt=6Eh0wnEtq5w


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## Dizzy Dawg

I really like the look of your tank. Not your typical set up. 
Nice job. :thumb:


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## izabella87

thank you ! yeah gotta keep it fresh and original, as diversified as nature makes it !


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## izabella87

Hi everyone ! Im just gonna update on the baby Jewels, now that its been a lil over 2 months I got them. They still alive ?!?!? yeah in a tank full of predatory fish. But those predators gave up long time on tryinna eat the jewel fry.. cuz the parents are very resilient beasts haha...


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## izabella87

Hi everyone... quick update here... after multple successful batches of my first couple of Jewel cichlids... my second couple have their first spawn... Ill let you watch ! -- Btw the mother is a neon green jewel cichlid, and father a red jewel, pretty fry to come 
---In case you dont see it, the fry are all in the left bottom corner.


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## Jaffy

What in the world do you do with all those Jewel fry? My buddy has a pair and has a hard time finding anybody to take them.

Lovely tank btw


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## ratbones86

Culling fish......


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## izabella87

Jaffy said:


> What in the world do you do with all those Jewel fry? My buddy has a pair and has a hard time finding anybody to take them.
> 
> Lovely tank btw


 i happen to work part time in a lfs..... i bring them there take care of them until they sold


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## izabella87

ratbones86 said:


> Culling fish......


no thx!!


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## Fogelhund

izabella87 said:


> ratbones86 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Culling fish......
> 
> 
> 
> no thx!!
Click to expand...

So all these hybrids you are creating you are selling at the Local Fish store?


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## underwatergirl

Just a question--Is "Frankenstein Aquarium" because it's pieced together or because you don't know which are spawning together (hybrids)?


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## B.Roberson

]So all these hybrids you are creating you are selling at the Local Fish store?
i hope not!!!!


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## bveister

Did you get all your driftwood from collection trips? Or did you buy some?


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## izabella87

Hybrids Sell great, Sold as Hybrids also. 
Frankenstein because its made of 16 tempered glass panels, 20 + metal brackets, 6 tubes of silicon.
Driftwood all from adventures.


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## cichlid-gal

izabella87 said:


> Hybrids Sell great, Sold as Hybrids also.
> Frankenstein because its made of 16 tempered glass panels, 20 + metal brackets, 6 tubes of silicon.
> Driftwood all from adventures.


Hybrids sell great to inexperienced buyers or people that don't really understand what a hybrid is or how they came about and what to do with hybrids.

It is a question of philosophy...purist or not. There are hybrids in the hobby....Flowerhorns come to mind. Some people like them and some don't. Nature can make mutations but those are different than "created" hybrids...hybrids that come from different species living in too close of quarters and lacking the variety of potential mates they would find in the wild...that is not natural, it is forced in a way.

And the fact that you are identifying them as hybrids and selling them as such...most advanced cichlid hobbyists will have a dislike for hybrids (and to be honest a dislike for those that sell them...just saying). What do you call these hybrids when you sell them? Do you use common names that are used in the hobby or do you identify them as "cross" x "cross". If you don't do the latter you are deceiving the buyer with the common name and at some point possibly that buyer will go on to become more educated about the fish and be very disappointed with your sale to them. And if they don't go on to become more educated then possibly they will spawn their group and pass on future hybrids...its a no win situation and one of the reasons you should not sell them. Hybrids create big problems for fish-keepers. Problems that can last a long time and effect not only the owners of the fish but future owners and generations of fish. Hybrids beget hybrids.

My thoughts are that we have enough true cichlid species to choose from for our tanks. Beautiful, exotic, plain, or fancy...they all exist already. Why create more? We have enough variables in the wild already. With over 1500 different species of cichlids to chose from and beautiful naturally occurring fish, what is the point of passing on hybrids purposely Isabella?


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## JimA

Plus one on that!


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## izabella87

Hello there! There's no point of passing on hybrids, I am not a breeder, fry occur naturally in my tanks. I will not start culling innocent beings just because they aren't pure breeds. Everything deserves equal chance to live on this earth, and I would do anything to protect life. If a real cichlid hobbyist wants a specific fish he will go get a pure breed, and who ever just wants a pretty fish won't really care whether its hybrid or not. My fish are healthy vibrant smart and I find them good homes. That's just the bottom line here. And FYI most cichlids in the wild which are considered pure breeds are results of the fish selective hybridization which occurs every passing year naturally in African lakes.


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## cichlid-gal

I'm not here to argue with you Izabella...only to express my opinion also.

And what happens in the wild cannot be compared to what happens in our tanks. Your tank does not provide a wild environment or even emulate one. Mate selection and spawning in the wild cannot be compared to mate selection and spawning in your tank. Your tank is filled with a few random fish that you personally chose and threw into it. They breed because it is natural to breed but they cannot make the choices that they would if they were in the wild. They have to spawn with what you have chosen for them because nature drives them to spawn. Lakes are filled with thousands and thousands of fish and species and yet, for the most part, each species finds its own and mates accordingly. That is the true NATURAL WAY.

As your "healthy vibrant smart" hybrids mature they will in all probability lack many qualities of the pure fish (color, temperament, intelligence, and other species specific behaviors). And I am not the one that has recorded these things, they have been recorded for years and years through many years of study by those who have questioned hybrid vs. pure.

And if you agree that there is no point in passing on hybrids and you are not a breeder but you end up with fry because of your tank setup and fish mix, then change your tank setup and fish mix. Many people have all male tanks. You would not be faced with producing hybrids with that type of tank. Just a suggestion.


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## JimA

"Hybrids Sell great, Sold as Hybrids also" Hello there! "There's no point of passing on hybrids"

If you sell hybrids they will eventually get passed on to someone else, so on and so on. Not really a good thing. I am dealing with this very sort of thing with some Tropheus I traded for, they were not what I thought and are most likely hybrids but very close to what I have now that are F1s. It is a bit of a different story, but still I got them from someone who thought they were pure or not, I don't know at this point, I just know they were mixed with mine. Good thing is I caught it in time, and no fry have been produced!


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## Demigod

Way to go Team North America! Derailing her perfectly good thread.

Izabella, your tanks are wonderful. What you do with your fry is your business. I hope the latter part of this thread, including this post, gets removed.


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## izabella87

This fish is an error of nature n should have been culled because it doesnt fit our standards of pure breed. Im sorry i allowed him to live


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## Fogelhund

izabella87 said:


> This fish is an error of nature n should have been culled because it doesnt fit our standards of pure breed. Im sorry i allowed him to live


You will not find many people who have opposition to keeping whatever hybrids you create for your own pleasure. The issue is the distribution of them, no matter what they are labelled as. The responsible cichlid hobbyist would adjust their stocking, to eliminate hybridization, if they could not keep all of the fry they were breeding. Knowingly stocking fish that will readily hybridize just isn't responsible IMO.

I think the tank itself is wonderfully done, but the knowingly stocking fish that will readily hybridize, and then distributing them throughout the hobby is irresponsible.

As far as removing posts discussing the stocking of this tank, and it's ramifications... won't happen. The OP posted details on their tank looking for discussion. Whether it was the discussion desired or not, it is worthwhile.


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## izabella87

I think to each their opinion, but u seriously make it sound like a mass distribution n hybrid promotion project. Not gonna keep debating, as for my jewels they aren't hybrids. A jewel is a jewel with several color variations. My only other that u would say is a hybrid were pseudotropheus blue zebra and ob pseudotropheus ... Big mad scientist hybrids done here ...


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## NZSIC'S

izabella87 said:


> I think to each their opinion, but u seriously make it sound like a mass distribution n hybrid promotion project....


Sorry to weigh in on this debate.. I have liked reading this thread. I have to agree with Izabella.. get some perspective people!


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## JimA

Demigod said:


> Way to go Team North America! Derailing her perfectly good thread.
> 
> Izabella, your tanks are wonderful. What you do with your fry is your business. I hope the latter part of this thread, including this post, gets removed.


 I don't see where anybody dissed her tank, I think its pretty cool from an out of the norm tank, and the title reflects that! And in my opinion Foglehund said it right. Like I mentioned, I am dealing with this almost very same situation on a bigger scale then just a few hybrids. But hybrids out for sale not knowing where they will end up is a risk down the line, not a huge risk but still a risk.

Izabella, pretty sure we don't think you are some kind of mad scientist out to destroy the fish world!


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## shug11

Rule #1 - Don't mention you keep hybrids and give them away or sell them to other people.

Izabella, don't let them get to you. Like you mentioned, if someone really wanted pure fish, they would go to great lengths (as well as lots of money) to get them. They would simply not go to a big chain pet store, or LFS looking for these said pure fish.

I highly doubt that the people that do happen to buy your hybrid fish are looking to breed them to distribute them.

And honestly, I highly doubt that there are pure breeds out there anymore. If there were, how would we truly know? Unless we did some extensive DNA testing, we wouldn't. Even wild caught cichlids, I'm pretty sure somewhere in their family line, it was crossed with a different breed. Whether it shows on the fish or not.


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## izabella87

shug11 said:


> Rule #1 - Don't mention you keep hybrids and give them away or sell them to other people.
> 
> Izabella, don't let them get to you. Like you mentioned, if someone really wanted pure fish, they would go to great lengths (as well as lots of money) to get them. They would simply not go to a big chain pet store, or LFS looking for these said pure fish.
> 
> I highly doubt that the people that do happen to buy your hybrid fish are looking to breed them to distribute them.
> 
> And honestly, I highly doubt that there are pure breeds out there anymore. If there were, how would we truly know? Unless we did some extensive DNA testing, we wouldn't. Even wild caught cichlids, I'm pretty sure somewhere in their family line, it was crossed with a different breed. Whether it shows on the fish or not.


Ouff thanks for helping me out here. 
I don't know if ppl realize that when they breed as breeder this pure breed fish they never took in consideration this strains evolution in their natural habitat. As our hobby pure breed fish stay the same as we constantly breed them to preserve this same look, in the wild the fish continue to evolve n we might end up with 2 very different specimens in the years to come


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## Fogelhund

shug11 said:


> And honestly, I highly doubt that there are pure breeds out there anymore. If there were, how would we truly know? Unless we did some extensive DNA testing, we wouldn't. Even wild caught cichlids, I'm pretty sure somewhere in their family line, it was crossed with a different breed. Whether it shows on the fish or not.


Actually, there has been extensive DNA testing on many, if not most of the Cichlids species out there. Most are pure, though there are (few) known exceptions such as Neolamprologus marunguensis.

The reality is otherwise you are completely wrong. If you take the time to understand and learn the fish, you will see that there are many pure species out there. (Not breeds) Irresponsible breeders and breeding, or just plain ignorance (in the true sense of the word) certainly do contribute to there being more hybrids in the hobby than there should be.

The studies and information on all this is available freely. I might recommend taking the time to become educated on the topic, in order to be capable of making educated comments in the future.



izabella87 said:


> Ouff thanks for helping me out here.
> I don't know if ppl realize that when they breed as breeder this pure breed fish they never took in consideration this strains evolution in their natural habitat. As our hobby pure breed fish stay the same as we constantly breed them to preserve this same look, in the wild the fish continue to evolve n we might end up with 2 very different specimens in the years to come


Well, sure in a few thousand years that might be the case that the fish evolve different in the wild, but certainly hybridization of fish in the aquarium, that are separated permanently in the wild is hardly evolution. The idea is indeed to preserve the same wild look, that won't change in the wild in our lifetime, or our grandkids, or theirs, except in extreme and very rare circumstances. To propose that somehow irresponsible distribution of hybrids into the hobby is akin to evolution is misguided at best.

At the end of the day the distribution of hybrids into the hobby, no matter how they are labelled, leads to pure species/lines being at risk. If you've mistakenly purchased a hybrid, or tried to purchase a pure species that ended up not being, you can look at irresponsible breeders such as Izabella who don't care enough about the fish, or hobby to take steps to prevent this, or educate themselves. That she works in a LFS illustrates how so many serious hobbyists have come to think so poorly of these shops, and many of the employees there, and will not patronize such shops. Poor cichlid husbandry practices, and poor business practices. A disfavour to all.


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## izabella87

ALready imma go n cull all my hybrids. They hybrids, horrible misbreed fish that deserve to die. N me im awfull person that forced them to interbreed. ---Nooottt....


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## JimA

You two sound like my 12 year old..

Nobody is forcing anything on her, and yes there are a bunch of "persons" here with opinions. Right or wrong it doesn't mean she has to listen to any of them. I am no expert by any means, I just know what I have been dealing with because somebody decided to mix 2 different species of Tropheus together and didn't bother to tell anyone about it. But a couple of the "persons" here voicing there opinions have been around the block a time or two, maybe it's worth just a bit of respect, which is hard to come by these days by many that were probably never taught it, or just don't get it...

Good luck to you Izabella!


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## cichlidaholic

shug11 said:


> They would simply not go to a big chain pet store, or LFS looking for these said pure fish
> .


I don't, but I used to. I was fortunate enough to live 30 minutes from the most reputable LFS for cichlids that you can imagine. The manager actually chose the wild stock they sold, and everything that was not wild came from reputable sources. That is how it works when you know what you're doing and have a love for the hobby.

This thread is an excellent advertisement AGAINST your average LFS.


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## izabella87

Okay... Guys/girls, I appreciate all your opinions but can I just close your debate or someone close my thread.I dont want more angry "persons" around here.


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## Fogelhund

I'll close it for you.

Just one final note, I don't advocate culling as a long-term strategy to deal with hybrids, though I've resorted to feeding off fry to other fishes in these circumstances, but stocking in a manner that reduces the risk of they hybrids.


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