# Planted Tank Work In Progress...Bol Rams? Apis Caca? KeyH?



## Hubbynz (May 10, 2008)

Hello everyone

Well I have recently been posting in here asking for advice on planted tanks for Rams or Apisto Caca or Key Holes.

Here are pics of the tank I recently setup last week and I am currently cycling with 14 convict fry.

This is my first attempt at a planted tank so I am currently experimenting and plan to rearange and add more plants. I know it looks a bit messy at the moment.



















So far in the tank I have 2 pieces of drift wood in each corner, one large centre piece anubus (which I feel sets off the tank), tuffs of hairgrass and some other plant spread around the tank. I also have a topairy ball? But might get rid of the ball as it is not looking too good....I was considering trying to graft some of it onto the driftwood.....any ideas how to do this? I plan to hide the filter and heater with taller plants.

The sub is a fine black gravel....I wanted white sand but the LFS didn't have any in stock so I took a risk with the black gravel which I am pleasantly surpirsed with as it strongly contrasts the green of the plants and brings out the colours of the fish....it is also very easy to plant.

I am happy with the look of the tank thus far but definately plan to do lots of tweaking and tidying up adding 2-4 amazon swords and some banana lilly.

Th tank volume is 60 litres or 15.32 gallons.

:-? I was orginally planning to stock it with :-?

1x Apistogramma Cacatuoides Double Red German 
1x Keyhole 
1x Bolivain ram

:-? but I am maybee thinking the tank is t0o small for all three and I am considering either the Apisto and the Bolivain together or a pair of Keyholes (tank two small for a pair?) :-?

I am also wanting to add 
neon tetras
Rummy nose tetras
Corys
Bristlenose/hillman loach

P :-? lease advise on a good stocking plan as I do not want to overstock the tank. :-?

Also Don't worry about the crappy background ...I plan to get rid of that and replace it with a plain black background to compliment the black gravel and black finish of the tank.

All advice and feedback is greatly appreciated. :idea:


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Is it a 24 inch 15 gallon? If so I'd skip the keyholes. They aren't technically dwarves becuase of their size, even though they act like one. They can get 5-6 inches and are thicker than any dwarf cichlid.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

I think you've done a great job :thumb: not a bad start at all. It will look a million times better
with a background, but instead of black, why not go with a deep blue to black fade - I use this 
on all of my aquariums. What I would suggest is to break up the dwarf hairgrass a bit more and 
spread it out. The moss can be carefully cut up and attached to a stone/driftwood and then 
attached with thin elasticated line (like you'd use to make a bracelet - it's clear, thin and tough 
:thumb. It seems fine like this and it spreads pretty quickly IME.

Remember not to plant too densely at first and to actually divide the plants out into plantlets, as 
they will need space to grow and expand. Ie a batch of cryptcoryne comes as a group of 5 or 6 
smaller plants, you can easily break these up into their smaller clusters and plant them, it gives 
a better chance of spreading out and a more successful establishment, this is why I would 
spread the hairgrass out a bit more

What type of heater is that? Some can be used in the tank sideways, this is what I do with mine 
and it means it's pretty much unnoticeable. I have a spraybar accross the surface and 
underneath the spraybar I place the heater horizontally, here the water is being pulled up to the
heater and pushed accross the aquarium, so I get a very even temperature, and it's out the 
way! :thumb: You have to check that your heater can be used like this though, I know not all of
them can. Mines a fluval tronic - I also use these on all my tanks and find them to be pretty 
reliable - the 50w is easily concealed in my 10 gallon shell-dweller set-up.

You might find that you'll want to move the driftwood on the right away from the side a little, 
unless that's just distortion, but cleaning the glass will be a pain if that's in the way. Move the 
thermo somewhere so that it can be viewed only from the side - not from the front - ie other 
side of your heater, as the less distractions the better. :thumb:

Have you added anything to the gravel in terms of providing nutrients for root uptake? What will
you be using for water column nutrient?

Get a nice plain background on it and get some pics up with that hairgrass spread out some 
more - you can really divide it all up, as long as you leave a few stems/leaves and roots they 
will go. I look forward to seeing it with more plants in!

I would personally advise against stocking a tank with single specimens like that - they won't 
show colours as strongly as they could, you will miss out on a lot of interesting behaviour and 
there isn't really enough space. Why not do a pair of _Apistogramma_? I wouldn't keep two 
keyholes in a 15 gallon. This is no bad thing, the apistos are fascinating and beautiful little fish 
that can be pretty hardy, I don't see why you shouldn't try and get a pair of apistos!

If you want an insteresting loach why not get _Beaufortia kweichowensis_, I found them to 
be very efficient little algae eaters in my SA planted tank and they thrived, they loved the sand 
substrate and used to sit on it munching pellets, turning a light tan colour and then returning to 
dark brown with blue/green spots when on the back walls. 1-2 would be enough otherwise 
they'd compete for food too much.

If you want the apistos to breed but don't want the hassle of raising fry, a group of corys would 
be ideal as they'd gradually steal the fry from the parents. I'd do a trio of _Corydoras 
arcuatus_ but that's just because I like them.

Rummynose tetras - _Hemmigrammus bleheri_, are fantastic dither fish and I've got a lone 
survivor from many moons ago who is still as vibrant and eager as ever, they truly are one of 
the best dithers IMO and are a fantastic measure of water quality - the red through their face 
can extend beyond the gill plate in good environments, when stressed or in inferior water 
conditions the red line retracts and diminishes in intensity. I think a group of 6 would be 
adequate.

Alternately I am also a big fan of _Trigonostigma heteromorpha_ and a group of 8 would look
fantastic. http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/Species ... p?id=10881

I would steer clear of the neon tetras. You could add a small pleco - I like _Parotocinclus 
jumbo_, if you can find them you could include 4 of them if you only have 1 _Beaufortia 
kweichowensis_.

So my final stock recommendation is:

A pair of Apistogrammas (you say you like Apistogramma Cacatuoides Double Red German).
6 Rummynose tetra *OR* 6-8 Harlequin rasbora
1-2 Hillstream loach
4 Pitbull plecos

If you can't get the pitbull pleco you could alternately go for Otocinclus, although I have no 
direct experience with them so cannot comment on numbers.

I know it seems like quite a light stocking, but that's because it is, I'd say it was well stocked if 
you were to take that route and your fish would absolutely thrive in there with good care. The 
less stress, the more colour, the better the behaviour, the more enjoyment you'll get from it.

:thumb:


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

I tend to keep 1 oto per 10 gallons to keep algae away, so two should be fine for a 15 gal. They are incrediably effective for such a tiny fish. :thumb:


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## cc_woman (Jan 31, 2008)

I think oto's work better in groups, even if he got 4 of them, it should be fine with their size. I honestly love shrimp as a clean up crew. They actually just found a new lake over in Sulawesi, Indonesia full of new types of shrimp. Here is a link on some info about them http://albertaaquatica.com/index.php?showtopic=19768. And to me they would be excellent for planted tanks to hide in...not to mention just absolutely gorgeous colors. They are light on the bio load, and eat any remaining food on the bottom. Finding a good importer with low mortality rates would be a little more difficult depending on your area. Only thing is the hardness differences, but you can always stick with cherry, ghost or rainbow shrimp.

I have to agree with the apisto's too. They are much nicer and will suit the tank size better.


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## MetalHead06351 (Oct 3, 2007)

ottos will do better in groups. I have 3 in my ten gallon, it is unessesary to have that many in a tank that size for algae control, but they enjoy each others company. If you put more than one in there you will have to throw in some algae wafers for them. They would eat flake food, but they go crazy over the wafers.


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## Hubbynz (May 10, 2008)

> Have you added anything to the gravel in terms of providing nutrients for root uptake? What will
> you be using for water column nutrient?


Um I haven't evn considered this before as planted tanks are new to me.....any ideas/tips/advice?

Could I fit a pair of Apistogramma Cacatuoides and a single Bol Ram in there safely?

What about a Apistogramma Borelli ?

I am not to worried about a pair as I will ended up tryin to protect the fry(which I don't want to worry about) and I like variety.

I will definately have the following

2-3 panda cory
1 Albino bristlenose (I think he would look great on the black gravel).
1 Hillman loach 
10 Neon tetra and/or 4 Rummy nose tetra

Maybee
5-10 glass shrimp.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Sorry bro I lost track, too many simultaneous threads.

I see you read the post I made to daffodils regarding, well just about everything. Did it help 
answer your questions or are you still unclear about certain things? Ask away.

Regarding the stocking - the reason I am so hesitant to recommend stocking the way you 
would like is that the individual fish will be placed under a great deal of stress and you really 
won't enjoy it - I certainly don't advise lone Bolivian Rams as they are a social fish and they do 
suffer for the lack of other Bolivians. Unfortunately in a 15 gallon tank we are quite limited due 
to the lack of available territory.

Your general stock of :
2-3 panda cory
1 Albino bristlenose
1 Hillman loach
10 Neon tetra and/or 4 Rummy nose tetra
5-10 glass shrimp.

Would work just fine, I'm not too sure what the Hillman loach is though!?

With that I would be inclined to stock a pair of Apistogramma cacatuoides in that tank. You 
could try and add a single _Cleithracara maronii _but it will all depend on the character of 
the particular fish you get - the Apistos may not tolerate the keyhole and vice versa OR you'll 
end up with nice docile fish that are quite tolerant . That's what I love so much about Cichlids, 
they have individual characteristics, so it's a bit of trial and error sometimes. I'd rather not add 
the Keyhole, but it could be done.

Expect the shrimp to get munched! If you don't have a good amount of dense cover for the 
shrimp they will be preyed upon.

With a group of Corys it is highly unlikely that the fry will make it beyond a few weeks - even 
with exceptional parents once the fry are more adept at free-swimming their range extends 
and they naturally fall beyond reach or sight of the parents..... lunch time.

It would make for an entertaining tank and that clean up crew will keep things spotless!


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## Hubbynz (May 10, 2008)

This is a hillman loach or borneo something or other, they look pretty cool.










I think I'll go with the general stocking as above but also go with a pair of Apistogramma Cacatuoides Double Red German and a keyhole as blair suggested. I really like the keyhole (these guys are super cute) and I think the double red's would contrast well with the colour scheme I have going on. Black sub, black tank finishing, plain black background and black stand which contrasts well with the green plants and brown driftwood. I just want to have at least two diff species of cichlid in there.

I think I will go with both the neon tetra as I can source these guys cheap and the rummy noses as I think they look great. and are probably the best looking tetras. I just want as much bright colour as possible.

The shrimps are cheap also so I'll give them a go for some interesting variety.

I moved the heater like you suggested and you can hardly see it now. :thumb:

The thermo is just one I switch between tanks.

I have rearranged the tank layout a bit today with the hairgrass (this stuff is rooting really well in less than a week) located in front of each bit of driftwood in the corners....removing it from the front and back. Also moving the large anibus on wood more forward leaving lots of space at the back where I plan to have the large plants such as amazon sword and banana lilly grow a little more wildly at the backhalf of the tank behind the dirftwood having the hairgrass fill in in the corners. I will leave the central front area more open while I want to keep my plant list to 4-5 varieties. I have also trimed back the moss ball and moved in more to the back left corner as not to distract from the center. I'll try to get some photos up soon.

Two weeks till the tank has cycled and then I will start stocking.


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## Hubbynz (May 10, 2008)

Ok well I have been busy adding some plants today and here are some updated photos as promised.

I have added more hairgrass, 3 small amazon swords at the back behind the planted driftwood and two bunches of what I believe to be ambulia to either side of the driftwood (I love the bushy affects of these). I am really satisfied to the look I have achieved so far and I am very interested to see how it all fills out. I don't think I need to add any more plants at all except maybee some moss over the driftwood.

I will get some fetilizer for the gravel in the next day or two but I have no idea about Co2???

Hopefully another week before the tank cycles and I can put my order in for a pair of Apistogramma Cacatuoides and the dithers. I think try to catch the 14 con juves currently cycling the tank maybee prove a different challenge all together. :roll:

There are a range of pics so you can get a good idea of it all.


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## jcushing (Apr 6, 2008)

very nice, swords can get pretty big, so i dont think youll need any more plants in a couple months. now get some fish in there


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## LJ (Sep 12, 2007)

Very nice. Is there anything planted behind the driftwood in the left corner? I think it might look good to have a tall plant extending up the corner there.


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## Hubbynz (May 10, 2008)

Well I thought I would post an update after 6 weeks to see if you can notice any difference.

The ambulia is growing like crazy and getting a little out of control I will trim it I just want it to thicken up a bit. The hairgrass has rooted well and thickened up.

The tank is cycled and I have added the following stock.....

16 neon tetra
4 Panda cory
1 Hillstream loach
1 Albino Bristlenose
6 Glass shrimp
1 Pepper Cory (which I will relocate)

On back order is a pair of Apsitogramma Cacas and one small keyhole.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

G'day *Hubbynz*,

Nice looking setup you got going there mate.



> On back order is a pair of Apsitogramma Cacas and one small keyhole.


 :lol: 
Dude! They gotta be the two most common dwarf SA cichlids, available in every Oz LFS. Where you at?

My advice would be to just go with the pair of cacs. I think your tank is a little on the small side to have a pair cichlids and a third wheel, so to speak.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

i wouldnt say keyholes are all that common, in my area anyway, *** only seen them twice, as for the apistos, not near as common as bolivian rams or blue rams LOL.

nice tank man, looking very good, cant wait till you add the cichlids, though i do agree with the others about the keyhole, they do get a little big.


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## Hubbynz (May 10, 2008)

Locally keyholes cost $30 where the company I order from online I can get them for $5. All of my LFS rarely stock double reds.

I am getting a juve keyhole and will move once he gets aggressive or too large.


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## Hubbynz (May 10, 2008)

Locally keyholes cost $30 where the company I order from online I can get them for $5. All of my LFS rarely stock double reds.

I am getting a juve keyhole and will move once he gets aggressive or too large.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

gage said:


> i wouldnt say keyholes are all that common, in my area anyway, I've only seen them twice, as for the apistos, not near as common as bolivian rams or blue rams LOL.


Well here in Oz keyholes are standard fair for every LFS cheap and locally bred, so are cacatuoidies orange flash.


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## Hubbynz (May 10, 2008)

a quick update my tank after a quick prune....the ambulia was getting out of hand it was covering the whole surface of the tank.

Home of three bolivain rams



















and here is my new 2ft 20 gallon

hopefully home for a pair of smiling arcara and a pair of double red aspito cacs


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Yo bud, I think your first tank is really coming along a treat, good work! See my post in the "rate the tank above" post for my input on your second tank :thumb:.

BTW - what is a smiling acara? Some sort of Laetacara? I don't really know odd common names like that - lead too easily to misunderstandings in what exactly said fish is.... :-?


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## Hubbynz (May 10, 2008)

Cheers Blair. The ambulia is running a muck in there (so much that I have stocked my new tank with their clippings) but the amazons are starting to find there feet which is good and the anubias is growing really well....sets off the whole tank.

A smiling Acara is what my LFS had Laetacara curviceps listed as with the correct name underneath. They had sold out within 1/2 day before I turned up but they are ordering me a pair.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

:thumb: Ah right cool I'll have to remember that, smiling acara :lol: well at least it's a nice name not something that sounds like a candy sweet. Obviously in demand out there!


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## winn0923 (Oct 8, 2008)

Hubbynz said:


> 16 neon tetra
> 4 Panda cory
> 1 Hillstream loach
> 1 Albino Bristlenose
> ...


Isn't this a little overstocked?! :? Otherwise the tank looks great! Nice anubias BTW :thumb:


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Have you read the thread through? The Keyhole is what makes this overstocked, but otherwise that list is fine.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

*Blairo* - smiling acara is the common name for the _Laetacara_ genus ... since their genus name means "happy acara" ... due to the distinctive 3 stripe pattern on their face, one of which is the one that extends from the mouth ... making them look like they are smiling ... or the Joker.


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## Hubbynz (May 10, 2008)

Yeah the keyhole won't go in there anymore

Current stocking
3 Bolivian rams
14 neon tetra (lost one)
4 Panda Cory
1 Hillstream loach
1 Bristlnose
2-3 glass shrimp ( the rest got eaten me thinks)

My Apisto Cacas will go in my new 20 gallon 2ft long.


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## winn0923 (Oct 8, 2008)

Hubbynz said:


> Current stocking
> 3 Bolivian rams
> 14 neon tetra (lost one)
> 4 Panda Cory
> ...


I just thought this might be a tad much for a 15 gallon? I'm kinda new to the hobbie and I think that might be a little overstock, but then again what do I know? 

For my 20 high I have 5 panda, 3 pristella tetra (gonna be 6), 3 oto, and 1 GBR and I think that I might be at my max already.


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## winn0923 (Oct 8, 2008)

Here are my bolivian rams in my planted tank (I rehomed them shortly after for a GBR):



















 [/img]


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## Hubbynz (May 10, 2008)

winn0923 said:


> Hubbynz said:
> 
> 
> > Current stocking
> ...


I just thought this might be a tad much for a 15 gallon? I'm kinda new to the hobbie and I think that might be a little overstock, but then again what do I know? 

I thought along those lines originally but the water parameters have been fine for over a month and the tank is quite heavily planted so I think it keeps the water quality up.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

*winn0923*

Not to divert from *Hubbynz* thread too much, but you could house a pair of Blue Rams in there with your current stock, no problem. I've bred a pair of Blue Rams in a 6 gallon. Are you aware of the requirements of Blue Rams, and that lower temps, higher pH/KH will cause them not to be as vibrant as they could be - they like very soft, very warm water - I kept mine in pH5, KH1.5, GH2-4, Temp 30C - 86f.

Just need to check, assuming you still want to work around the Blue Rams (albeit compromising them a little), my stocklist would look like this:
5 _Corydora arcuatus_, 
3 _Otocinclus _
2 Blue Rams (male and female, preferably a pair that have already shown bonded behaviour in the fish store)
6-8 _Caridina japonica_

Scrap the _Pristella maxillaris _IMO, too big and unruly for the Blue Rams it will cause them to be skittish and a little stressed, instead think along the lines of either:

8-10 _Hemmigrammus bleheri_
OR
8-10 _Trigonostigma heteromorpha_

Both of those are really easy going, they tolerate the conditions well, won't stress the Rams and will make for good dither fish to spread courting/breeding aggression away from the Cichild pair, strengthening their bond and keeping stress down.

That would make for a busy, diverse, interesting tank that would be easy going on all involved and no, not overstocked, well stocked .


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Oh yes and most likely *Hubbynz* is trying for 1m 2f Bolivians, with the aim of removing the female that doesn't pair up - giving the male a choice of mate as best as can be done in this size tank - ideally one would start with a larger group of a few males and females and then wean them out from there, but this depends on the situation of course.

You'll go far *winn0923*, you have the right attitude IMO - ie you are conservative and careful about overstocking, makes a big difference. If you have any questions at all don't hesitate to ask!


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## winn0923 (Oct 8, 2008)

I just have a question: if I want to keep the panda and the GBR together, what is a good compromising temp for the 2? I'm currently running at 82 right now and I do not want to cook the panda since I've read they prefer cooler temp.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Panda cory's breed in discus tanks of 86+ .. so they should be fine at the 84F the rams prefer.


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## Hubbynz (May 10, 2008)

Here is an update on the newer 20 gallon

Well they are here!! My Double Red German Bred Apistogramma Cacatuoides are finally here (one male and one female) and it was more than worth the wait these guys espically the male (who I think is actually a triple red) are absolutely stunning colours and finnage. Hopefully I can get them breeding soon.























































And they share the tank with these guys (and two khuli loach and one pepper cat) which I also got this week.....














































And an update on the tank with a few more plants


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## sthomas048 (Dec 27, 2007)

just a short comment, the one thing that stands out for me is the Hillstream loach. To live and thrive they really need a *lot* of aeration and water flow, lots of rocks and stones to latch onto. Quite different requirements. They are beautiful loaches but just so you are aware of this. 

Stephen


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## Hubbynz (May 10, 2008)

sthomas048 said:


> just a short comment, the one thing that stands out for me is the Hillstream loach. To live and thrive they really need a *lot* of aeration and water flow, lots of rocks and stones to latch onto. Quite different requirements. They are beautiful loaches but just so you are aware of this.
> 
> Stephen


hmmm that must be why I often see him positioned right in the path of the filter flow streams???


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## Hubbynz (May 10, 2008)

a few more pics


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