# Why dont mbuna and haps mix well?



## Matman1110

This is what i understand:

mbuna:
-smaller fish
-typically more agressive/territorial
-like rocks/caves

haps:
-larger fish
-Can be aggressive toward smaller fish and possibly eat them
-like the open water

So if the mbuna is large enough, so that it cant get eatin up by any haps, what other problems might occur?

Thanks in advance


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## The King Crabb

Mbuna may be smaller, but they pack one heck of a punch.


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## brinkles

The haps may get bloat from the stress caused by the mbuna. I have red empress and venustus in with mbuna now, and am well aware that I can't keep them together forever. The red empress had one batch of fry when the mbuna were smaller, but won't hold to term anymore. They spit out the eggs within days of spawning. The venustus will eventually eat smaller fish, and possibly need a larger tank. They already hunt fry born in the tank much more aggressively than other fish.

That said, I'm trying to keep them together as long as I can.


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## nwtwoTHEworld

i was under the understanding that mbuna and haps can be put together just have to be carefull of what u put together am i right?? theres an artical in the libary section the the site that talks about this, dont have my tank yet but it is my understanding that they can go together its just like i said gettin the right match


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## The King Crabb

Only the most docile of Mbuna can go with Hap/ Peacocks and even then you have to be very selective.


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## noki

Really, the stress and dominance of Mbuna make it difficult for the Haps to do well. The Haps males may not show full color (and that is one of the main reasons to keep the Hap in the first place). The Haps may not breed. The Haps may get stressed out and skinny, and be in poor health. The point is that you should want to have the Haps so they do well and thrive... otherwise why have them?

Some Haps are predatory in nature, but in real terms this is rarely an issue except in really large tanks. Many are very inept at catching fish in an aquarium. The idea that a Venustus will grow and start swallowing adult Mbuna in a 75g seems pretty unlikely. Many Haps do grow very large, and should be put in large tanks so they will do well. Buccochromis and Dimidochromis seem like the most predatory, and get quite large.

That said, many combinations can be kept together successfully.


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## brinkles

I hear yellow labs and acei are the best to keep with haps, what haps stand the best chance of surviving with mbuna?


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## Matman1110

Great, thank you all for the responses.

right now *** got a 125G with mostly small haps, largest is a 6" Fusco, plus 1 mbuna, an adult male yellow lab. the tank is doing very well and havnt had a problem with the yellow lab. my fusco likes to pick on all the fish in the tank but when he sees my yellow lab he turns around. there have been times where my fusco has tried to initiate a stand off between him and the yellow lab but the yellow lab holds his ground very well.

i mean this example shows that certain mbuna, like yellow labs can be placed in hap tanks because the yellow lab only gets defensive when fish get into his territory. hes not offensive if you know what i mean.

so this brings me to my next question. what other mbuna are like this that i could add to my tank? i really want a metriaclima greshakei. how r they on the hostility scale? also what about red zebras & cobalt blue zebras?


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## brinkles

Metriaclima in general are way meaner than yellow labs. Acei are pretty chill, I'd try them. I keep lab sp. "hongi" and lab. joanjohsonae, and they're pretty feisty compared to yellow labs despite being labidichromis.


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## poseidons minions

i have group of melachromis chipokae with my haps in my 220 gallon they just hang out in the rock piles plus they are omnivores so it works


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## Fogelhund

Generalizations in general don't work. It really depends on exactly what species you have, their current size, the size of the mbuna upon introduction and the landscaping of the aquarium.

Many of the more robust, aggressive Haps/peacocks can be kept with many mbuna without any issue.

Fish such as the Nimbochromis, Fossochromis, Champsochromis, Scieanochromis fryeri, Aulonocara jacobfriebergi types, Protomelas taeniolatus, Cyrtocara moori, Dimidiochromis, sometimes large Placidochromis phenochilus.. There are a few others, but less commonly kept..

I've had no problem with any of the Labidochromis, Pseudo (acei, saulosi, demasoni), Metriaclima (fainzilberi, estherae, callainos), Cynotilapia. ( you also have to consider that a fish like a fusco could eat an adult demasoni, when building a tank)

This was a 75 gallon I had, with a breeding group of Sci. fryeri and Metriaclima estherae. The fryeri male was 8", the estherae 5". The estherae was most certainly not ever going to challenge that freyeri. The fryeri were established in the tank first.










I don't know your fish list, so it is difficult to comment further. M. greshakei is a more than average aggressive mbuna. It really depends on your fish list.


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## Matman1110

Fogelhund said:


> Generalizations in general don't work. It really depends on exactly what species you have, their current size, the size of the mbuna upon introduction and the landscaping of the aquarium.
> 
> Many of the more robust, aggressive Haps/peacocks can be kept with many mbuna without any issue.
> 
> Fish such as the Nimbochromis, Fossochromis, Champsochromis, Scieanochromis fryeri, Aulonocara jacobfriebergi types, Protomelas taeniolatus, Cyrtocara moori, Dimidiochromis, sometimes large Placidochromis phenochilus.. There are a few others, but less commonly kept..
> 
> I've had no problem with any of the Labidochromis, Pseudo (acei, saulosi, demasoni), Metriaclima (fainzilberi, estherae, callainos), Cynotilapia. ( you also have to consider that a fish like a fusco could eat an adult demasoni, when building a tank)
> 
> This was a 75 gallon I had, with a breeding group of Sci. fryeri and Metriaclima estherae. The fryeri male was 8", the estherae 5". The estherae was most certainly not ever going to challenge that freyeri. The fryeri were established in the tank first.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know your fish list, so it is difficult to comment further. M. greshakei is a more than average aggressive mbuna. It really depends on your fish list.


Thank you Fogulhund, very helpful.

My current fish list:
1 N. Fusco 6"
1 N. Livingstonii 4"
1 Yellow Lab 5"
1 S. Fryeri 3.5"
1 Gold peacock hybrid 2.5"

These are the fish i would like to add:
M. Greshakei
N. Venustus
C. Moori
Red Empress
P. Acei
Maybe Red/cobalt blue zebras

How would you recommend the order i should add these fish and at what sizes? Right now my fusco is the dominant male and im afraid he will not take a liking to these fish being added. Hes already made enemies with virtually everyone in the tank currently.

Thanks in advance


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## Fogelhund

The main problem is that there aren't enough fish in the tank to disperse the aggression. This is a 6ft 125 correct? I would add in all the Haps on your list, plus whatever acei you want to keep... and do it quickly before the fusco becomes too much of an issue. I would wait until all the Haps are above 6" before adding in any mbuna, and get the mbuna around 3". The greshakei might work, might be too aggressive, only one way of finding out.


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## mokujin22

Fogelhund said:


>


Rockin' aquascaping, man. :thumb:

+1 on combining haps/peacocks with mbuna.

Some tanks I currently have setup (all are breeding groups):

-O lithobates/Iodotropheus sprengarae
-P. phenochilus/Ps. Acei Whitetail Ngara
-Benga peacocks/P. salousi

Big show/all male tanks are even easier to mix them up.


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## The King Crabb

Fogelhund said:


> Generalizations in general don't work. It really depends on exactly what species you have, their current size, the size of the mbuna upon introduction and the landscaping of the aquarium.
> 
> Many of the more robust, aggressive Haps/peacocks can be kept with many mbuna without any issue.
> 
> Fish such as the Nimbochromis, Fossochromis, Champsochromis, Scieanochromis fryeri, Aulonocara jacobfriebergi types, Protomelas taeniolatus, Cyrtocara moori, Dimidiochromis, sometimes large Placidochromis phenochilus.. There are a few others, but less commonly kept..
> 
> I've had no problem with any of the Labidochromis, Pseudo (acei, saulosi, demasoni), Metriaclima (fainzilberi, estherae, callainos), Cynotilapia. ( you also have to consider that a fish like a fusco could eat an adult demasoni, when building a tank)
> 
> This was a 75 gallon I had, with a breeding group of Sci. fryeri and Metriaclima estherae. The fryeri male was 8", the estherae 5". The estherae was most certainly not ever going to challenge that freyeri. The fryeri were established in the tank first.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know your fish list, so it is difficult to comment further. M. greshakei is a more than average aggressive mbuna. It really depends on your fish list.


I had no idea about that. Excellent imformation, you also say larger tanks and all males are easier to mix them? What about an all male tank in a 125G, easy to mix them or still quite hard?


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## Fogelhund

Mixing males can be just as tricky as breeding groups really. The reason being, with so many more species, it can be more likely someone isn't going to get along, and colour properly. With say three breeding groups, it is probable that the dominant male of each species will find a place to call home, while the females who are likely the bulk of the population won't challenge them.


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## Matman1110

Fogelhund said:


> The main problem is that there aren't enough fish in the tank to disperse the aggression. This is a 6ft 125 correct? I would add in all the Haps on your list, plus whatever acei you want to keep... and do it quickly before the fusco becomes too much of an issue. I would wait until all the Haps are above 6" before adding in any mbuna, and get the mbuna around 3". The greshakei might work, might be too aggressive, only one way of finding out.


The tank is actually 5' (60x18x27). My LFS actually has a fully grown male Venustus about 11 inches in a 90 gallon (4 feet long) tank. So although not ideal for the fusco, it could be worse.

I also forgot to mention that i have a female s. fryeri in the tank. The fusco chases her at every opportunity and wants to mate with her. Could removing her slow down his aggression towards the other fish?

Here is a pic of the tank. Notice that about the bottom 1/3 of the tank has rocks for caves/hiding spaces and the top 2/3 is open for the free swimming haps.










I also have 2 common plecos in there


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## nmcichlid-aholic

Like everyone is saying, the types of fish you choose and the number of them will determine how successful an all male tank is. I have been mostly successful mixing haps/peacocks and mbuna by kind of going the other way around - adding hardier haps and peacocks (like Nimbochromis and jacobfriebergi types) to a semi-aggressive/aggressive mix of all male mbuna.

I have found the 2 main rules for all male tanks to be 1) expect to do a lot of trial-and-error, and 2) make sure it is really ALL MALE! A single female in there can really get those guys worked up, so if you know you have a female in there, removing her could go a long way towards restoring some order.


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## brack

One interesting information in this thread. I have a situation here = 100g tank, 110cm long, currently has metriaclima esterae 1m+3f and hongi 1m+1f+2 unsexed juveniles. Metriaclima esterae is around 12cm large, and I don't know if I can add venustus or livingstonii family 1m+2f there was one 16cm male venustus in this tank, but after one year of peace, he died in combat with crabro while ALL crabro died (i had 5 of them including 16cm alfa male). I also liked trewavasae but it's so peaceful fish, I think it will be persecuted by metriaclima. 
So, what do you guys think, can I add venustus or livingstonii family there? 
Oh, one more thing - the size of venustus offered by lfs Is about 5cm, small...


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## DJRansome

I'd want a 72" tank for a venustus or livingstonii. Your tank is 43".

And for haps to work well with aggressive mbuna like estherae...you want the hap to be very mature and established in the tank first. Sounds like you have the opposite situation...the mbuna are mature and established and you want to add a 5cm venustus.


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## brack

Ok, got it, now will think about either selling mbuna and going to haps setup or only mbuna setup.

By the way, did anyone try tanganik cichlids? I know this is out of topic but how different they are?


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## DJRansome

They are very different...interesting behaviors. They are not all mouthbrooders...some pair and some are OK with harems like the Malawi.


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