# Anyone know what this is?



## lilcountrygal (Dec 27, 2011)

my friend recently removed a rowdy yellow lab becuase she thought this was aggression. Apparently, whatever it is, it is spreading. Im not sure what her parameters are, I can have her check them, but thought Id post pictures in case anyone know a sure fire disease it could be. She is treating with "salt and mardel maracyn-oxy". Tank is a 125 gallon. Mix of fish... nothing jumps out as super nasty.

The first to be infected:









Spread to these two:


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## ChoxRox (Sep 8, 2011)

What symptoms are they showing? What is the stocking?

The third pic has it's fin a little nipped up... could still be aggression.


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## lilcountrygal (Dec 27, 2011)

Mostly zebras, socolofi, labs. There are two peacocks (OB), a borleyi, 2-3 c. moorii, and some synos. There is also a tret in there that she rescued, but its small 1.5" (ish). There was a yellow lab who was quite rowdy, she removed him to a time out tank. she says it appears the white is spreading.

water 0 ammoia, 0 nitrite, 10 nitrate. pH 7.8

fish in first picture isnt eating. No other major symptoms other than whatever it is. They were hiding a bit, but not so much now that yellow lab is gone.


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## lilcountrygal (Dec 27, 2011)

Another pic of dolphin. Could it be a fungus?


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## lilcountrygal (Dec 27, 2011)

Her new question:

She has the 125 which the affected fish are in. She has a 55 that has mbuna in it. She has a 10 gallon hospital/time out tank.

Should she move the rowdy yellow male from the time out 10 gallon into the 55, and move the "sick" fish to the 10 gallon to treat or should she treat the entire 125?

Edited to add a clearer picture of the first fish. Doubt this one will last long, but if you can ID what it is, that might still be helpful because its just starting on the other fish. Could aggression look like this or is she probably dealing with something else?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

It looks like aggression to me. Are the fins fuzzy or mushy?


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Some of it looks like aggression, nipped fins etc. The last pic looks very much like columnaris, also known as saddleback disease, due to it sometimes taking the shape of where a saddle might sit on a fish.
Are the white areas growing in size? Do they appear cotton like? Any redness outlining the white/gray spots?


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Good call I think GTZ.
Compare http://lakemalawi.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=8009


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## lilcountrygal (Dec 27, 2011)

I suspected columnaris, but the pictures she looked up on google images didnt quite match. So, big thanks to GTZ and 24Tropheus (the link you posted.. which she checked out as she is a lurker lol.... is spot on to what she sees in her tank). Otherwise, we had ruled columnaris out. She lost the fish in the last picture and has a few more infected. She now suspects she sees some white in the mouths of the fish in the 55 (may just be the initial freak out... once you see one sick fish, they ALL look sick). She's a bit discouraged because the fish she lost is a family favorite, and a couple of the other "sick" ones are as well.

How does columnaris BEGIN? Is it stress related (there was definitely some aggression in the tank) or is it carried in from another tank? She did have some new additoins, but that was about two weeks ago. Id hate to think the fish store where I took her (and where I get my fish) infected her entire tank.... feeling a bit guilty here


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

It is pretty much in every tank in one form or another. Just when a stressed fish gets it badly, that fish kind of becomes a factory for making the bacteria in numbers that can then infect healthy fish. Or so I read. They say good husbandry should prevent it (as it loves poor water conditions) but its also a big dose of luck/bad luck I think. The person who had the plague and wrote the article/post, is one of the best Malawi cichlid keepers I know. I guess there are a number of forms (as with many bacterial infections) some more infectious and deadly than others.
Funny enough two weeks is suposed to be the quarentine period where fish brought in not showing symptoms are considered safe to sell. And two weeks is also the period they sould be kept in your quarentine tank before mixing with your other fish. I know many folk only have one tank and constantly risk and get away without quarentine but it is a risk. Just as I know many LFSs brake their own quarentine period for stuff got from "reliable sorces"

All the best James


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## lilcountrygal (Dec 27, 2011)

She doesnt have a quarantine. (nor do I any longer actually). We each only have 55 and 125. *** been fairly lucky, but with this latest setback, Im rethinking that entirely.

She's going to attempt a salt dip (described in library of this forum) this evening and treat with the medicine. If that's not a good idea, someone let us know lol.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I dought a salt dip will do the trick as it looks to be whole tank infected. Lots of anti biotics should do the trick of stopping its spread further but may not save badly infected fish. I read Aqua Pro-Cure and Revive are both a blended mixture of several components to treat this and other diseases. Acriflavine-MS and Metro-MS are single compound medications, specifically acriflavine neutral and metronidazole respectively, which will also bring this disease under control.
I realy think its time to use anti biotics or other recommended treatments or best get a vet on the case.

But yep salt dip to reduce the bacteria count on the surface of the fish prob a good idea.

All the best James


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Like many bacteria, Flavobacterium columnare are ever present and opportunistic.
When the conditions are right (or wrong depending on your point of view), they can gain a foothold and begin spreading. 
Lowered immune response makes fish susceptible to all kinds of infection and disease. This can be brought about in a number of different ways, excessive overcrowding, aggression (injury), poor water quality, improper handling, temperature swings and poor quarantine procedures. Simply put, stressed out fish are expending energy on being stressed instead of using that energy to keep bacteria in check.
There's a good, albeit dated, article on columnaris in the library health section. One thing to note is that the reference to increased temperature (35C/95F) is for discus and that, in my opinion, any increase in temperature will result in an increase in the growth rate of columnaris bacteria.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

I'd be doing methylene blue with salt baths.
For badly infected fish, you might have to swab.
http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/20 ... baths.html


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## lilcountrygal (Dec 27, 2011)

She has lowered her temperature. She has been treating with "mardel maracyn-oxy". Is there something she can buy locally that would be better for columnaris than that? I believe she said that is an antibiotic. At this point, a vet is probably out of the question due to funds, but she does have alot of time, money and emotion invested in these fish, so I'm sure the best possible medicine she could buy is the route she wants to take. Is her choice of medicine okay or is there something with better results?

I did read through the Library article, GTZ. Its quite informative, especially on the salt dips. :thumb:


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

lilcountrygal said:


> She has lowered her temperature. She has been treating with "mardel maracyn-oxy". Is there something she can buy locally that would be better for columnaris than that? I believe she said that is an antibiotic. At this point, a vet is probably out of the question due to funds, but she does have alot of time, money and emotion invested in these fish, so I'm sure the best possible medicine she could buy is the route she wants to take. Is her choice of medicine okay or is there something with better results?
> 
> I did read through the Library article, GTZ. Its quite informative, especially on the salt dips. :thumb:


From what I can gather, Maracyn Oxy is more appropriate for fungal infections rather than bacterial.
If she can't do dips or baths with salt and either methylene blue or potassium permanganate, then I'd go with nitrofurazone (API Furan 2) and kanamycin (Seachem Kanaplex) combined.
Note that you can do baths with M.B. and antibiotics but NOT P.P. and antibiotics, see my previous link.


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## lilcountrygal (Dec 27, 2011)

She called around and MB isnt available in her area. I'll have her look for the other medicine you mentioned, thank you.

Would a salt alone bath/dip not be helpful?


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

lilcountrygal said:


> She called around and MB isnt available in her area. I'll have her look for the other medicine you mentioned, thank you.
> 
> Would a salt alone bath/dip not be helpful?


It certainly would be, yes.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Honest I would go anti biotics. All baths can do is kill bacteria on the surface of the fish. From what I see she has disease caursing bacteria infecting/spreading from one fish to another and some infected chronicaly/whole system others infected surface only. The whole tank/system needs treating. Yep the baths will help individual fish not too far gone but they will not kill bacteria in the tank or prevent other fish from becoming infected.

If not using anti biotics I would cut my losses. Euthanize them all with clove oil, steralise the tank and start again with hopefully healthy stock.

I am lucky enough in 30+ years of keeping and breeding cichlids not to have had any fish with this problem so I am no expert. I do not envy anyone who has columnaris infected cichlids.

All the best James


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## Pats_Fan (Mar 17, 2012)

I would like to thank everyone for all their help in this matter that my good friend posted for me. At this point I have just a couple questions. (ok I have way more, but these are most important)

My order of events has been as follows:

Monday I loose a fish and am not quite sure about why.....

Wed we discovered this issue and I ran to Petco to get salt and maracyn and treat my tank with after a water change.

Thursday I run to Petsmart and get maracyn 1 & 2 and Melafix and treat my tank with these. I change some more water and add more salt.

Friday I treat with Melafix and salt dips.

Saturday I am beside myself and run to New Hampshire to get Seachem Kanaplex (2 hours away, but closest dealer), salt dips all around and treat with Kanaplex and Melafix.

Sunday salt dip and Melafix and partial water change, I choose not to add salt back in as the fish seem to be suffering from that.

Monday Kanaplex in this morning before leaving for work, I plan to run to Petco and get Pimafix after work and use that and Melafix together tonight after work with no water change.

How long before this takes it course and I have a day with no deaths and no tears  ?? And I have approx 15 fish that appear to have no symptoms after almost 7 days is it safe to move them and stop subjecting them to these treatments? I have been treating everyone like they are all infected, but these guys seem fine.

Thank all of you again! I have re-read everything posted here 100 times a day and found it helpful. :thumb:


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

I know that sometimes it's difficult acquiring the correct meds so I know why you've been switching them around, not usually a good idea, just wanted to get that out there. Sometimes it's unavoidable. With water changes and chemical (carbon, etc) filtration, it's usually manageable.
From the pics that I saw, Melafix and Pimafix aren't going to do much of anything for curing any outbreaks that you might still have on the go, they're more of a preventative medicine. At best they cure infections that are still in the early stages.
Maracyn Oxy is more of a fungal medication, not appropriate for columnaris.
Maracyn I (erythromycin) is a primarily gram positive medication, also not appropriate for columnaris, being that it's gram negative.
Maracyn II (minocycline) is primarily gram negative, however, it loses it's effectiveness in high GH (general hardness) aquariums, due to calcium absorbing much of the medication. I think it's either hit or miss and a higher than recommended dosage is needed for it to be effective in 'african rift lake' aquariums.
For columnaris, in the early stages, I would bathe or dip in methylene blue and salt.
For advanced cases, I would use a wide spectrum antibiotic like nitrofurazone/furazolidone and kanamycin, either in a hospital tank, or as part of a bath.

On to your current situation. Your remaining fish aren't showing any physical symptoms? Have they been in the same tank as the fish in your pictures? How long has it been since your last infected fish passed and was this the last fish to show physical symptoms? Just trying to figure out which fish are in which tank, why they need moved, etc.
Because of the mixture in medications, I recommend testing your water parameters when you get a chance, if you haven't been doing so. It's possible that some nitrifying bacteria have been killed off and you might experience a mini-cycle or spike. Check ammonia, nitrite and nitrates.


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