# Can I mix trophues



## Furcifer158 (Feb 16, 2008)

I have never mixed trophues. so I was wondering if I could mix
Tropheus sp. "Red" from ndole bay
with
Tropheus moorii Mpulungu 
without them cross breeding?


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## ddaquaria (Jan 3, 2004)

No, don't do it. I'm pretty sure you could look through the first 2 to 3 pages here to figure out the why nots.


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

Not a good mix if you want viable fry.


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## Furcifer158 (Feb 16, 2008)

just wanted to know. I'm not planning on keeping the Tropheus sp. "Red" from ndole bay. Just making a trade for some of my fronts. But I was just going to house them with my moops for the mean time. So if I get any fry I'll not keep them just in case.


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## daniel4832 (May 8, 2004)

Why would you not mix Tropheus sp. "Red" with a Tropheus moori that comes from the opposite side of the lake, and doesn't look at all the same? There are parts of the lake where 3 different (maps in Aqualog African Cichlids II Tanganyika I Tropheues) live together and don't cross breed. 
Thanks,
Daniel


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## Furcifer158 (Feb 16, 2008)

Well it turns out I go another tank from a friend so I think I will keep this group and breed them. But Dan do you think they will not cross breed. Cuz I would mind putting them in the 90 square tank together. so I can use that new tank for the neolamprologus nigriventris I'm getting from you. well at least one pair of them.


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## daniel4832 (May 8, 2004)

While I don't think they would cross breed, I do think that when you keep different types of Tropheus in the same tank the production of fry is reduced. I prefer keeping between 20 to 30 Tropheus (of one type) in a 75 and has been very productive for me. I have a WC group of "Red Rainbows" (Kambwimba) that is male heavy but is so crowded (27) that they are still productive. BUT that is what has worked for me.
Thanks,
Daniel


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## ddaquaria (Jan 3, 2004)

daniel4832 said:


> Why would you not mix Tropheus sp. "Red" with a Tropheus moori that comes from the opposite side of the lake, and doesn't look at all the same? There are parts of the lake where 3 different (maps in Aqualog African Cichlids II Tanganyika I Tropheues) live together and don't cross breed.


In your statement, you are comparing the (very) large square footage of a lake to the small square footage of an aquarium. I could (possibly) agree with your statement if you aquarium was at least 3000-4000 square feet - then you would at least have a small lake.


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## daniel4832 (May 8, 2004)

ddaquaria said:


> daniel4832 said:
> 
> 
> > Why would you not mix Tropheus sp. "Red" with a Tropheus moori that comes from the opposite side of the lake, and doesn't look at all the same? There are parts of the lake where 3 different (maps in Aqualog African Cichlids II Tanganyika I Tropheues) live together and don't cross breed.
> ...


So by your reasoning, I shouldn't mix any Neolamprologus, in that same 90 gallon because they could cross breed? One of the ways I help create pair bonds in different Neolamps, is to put a pair of N. leleupi and a pair of N. cylindricus in a 30 breeder, I have never had the males and females make the choice of the other species. I have done this with dozens of species!
I am not talking about mixing color varients which will and do cross breed in the lake, but different species. Why would a Tropheus sp."Red" want to breed with with a different species, Tropheus moori, when it has it's own species to breed with? If this was happening where are all the hybrids?
Thanks,
Daniel


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## ddaquaria (Jan 3, 2004)

daniel4832 said:


> So by your reasoning, I shouldn't mix any Neolamprologus, in that same 90 gallon because they could cross breed? One of the ways I help create pair bonds in different Neolamps, is to put a pair of N. leleupi and a pair of N. cylindricus in a 30 breeder, I have never had the males and females make the choice of the other species. I have done this with dozens of species!


That is cute... we were originally talking about tropheus and then you all of a sudden apply the rule to everything. I think that is called over usage (or something like that) when I took psychology. I'm not talking about neolamps - I'm talking about tropheus. And I'm pretty sure that if you did the searching on this forum, you will find the hybrids - good luck with your search (shouldn't take too long)


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## daniel4832 (May 8, 2004)

ddaquaria said:


> daniel4832 said:
> 
> 
> > So by your reasoning, I shouldn't mix any Neolamprologus, in that same 90 gallon because they could cross breed? One of the ways I help create pair bonds in different Neolamps, is to put a pair of N. leleupi and a pair of N. cylindricus in a 30 breeder, I have never had the males and females make the choice of the other species. I have done this with dozens of species!
> ...


No I was talking about species, and I'm trying to make the point that different species very rarely breed with each other. There are eight different recognized species of Tropheus ("Tanganyika Cichlids in their natural habitat" Ad Konings) and many more species of Neolamprologus. No one seems to worry about different species of Neolamps inter-breeding, but there seems to be some anecdotal tales floating around of different species of Tropheus inter-breeding. I'm asking for the proof, the rules of biology don't change from one species to the next, so yes I'm applying the rule to "everything" because that is the way science is suppose to work. I'm sorry I confused you.
Thanks,
Daniel


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## IrkedCitizen (Apr 26, 2007)

Well how about someone step up and do the test?

Have two tanks and two species. The males from an sp. red and the females from a moorii in one tank. The reserve with the males from the moorii and the females from the sp. reds in another. And see if they breed?

The tropheus of course would have to be breeding size and there would be no time limit.

As soon as there are holding females or fry in either tank then we will know the answer.

I mean honestly there have been confirmed cases of hybrids between the tropheus species. But let's get the "proof."

I would step up and do this test but I have Duboisi and Moliro and the Moliro are only 2.5" give or take.


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## ddaquaria (Jan 3, 2004)

I don't feel like you need to test. You just need to take some time and search the forums for the people that have already done it. Just look for topics on hybrids that have already been accidentally created. I've suggested twice (now a third) to just search the forum for that information - and that advice seems to be ignored.

BTW, Dan, let me know if the search feature here is confusing you - I'll can help you out a little bit - just ask...


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

ndole's and moops are very close in the lake, and the reds are known to spawn with just about anything. The last thing I would put in with a red species would be a rainbow variety. I have mixed moops with bemba with no crossbreeding, in fact, there was no breeding period.


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## daniel4832 (May 8, 2004)

noddy said:


> ndole's and moops are very close in the lake, and the reds are known to spawn with just about anything. The last thing I would put in with a red species would be a rainbow variety. I have mixed moops with bemba with no crossbreeding, in fact, there was no breeding period.


Sorry, but you are incorrect about the loction of ndole's and moops, they are on oppisite sides of the lake.
Thanks,
Daniel


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

If you look at the map that comes with the aqualog book, like I did before I posted, you will see that kasakalawe are right at the bottom of the lake and the ndole are just north and to the west. As far as I'm concerned, that is very close. I'm not sure what is incorrect about what I said. Surely you'r not suggesting that my idea of what I consider close is wrong? Bemba and Kasakalawe are at opposite ends of the lake and that is what I consider a safe distance. :thumb:


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## flashg (Oct 5, 2007)

daniel4832 said:


> Why would you not mix Tropheus sp. "Red" with a Tropheus moori that comes from the opposite side of the lake, and doesn't look at all the same? There are parts of the lake where 3 different (maps in Aqualog African Cichlids II Tanganyika I Tropheues) live together and don't cross breed.
> Thanks,
> Daniel


It's people like you that introduce hybrids to the hobby! :x


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Yep but we are talking about in captivity.
Lots of types of animals which do not cross in the wild do cross in captivity.
The lake is not an accurate model for your tank. :thumb: 
Dubs reasonably safe with other types even in captivity.
Most others will sometimes cross.
Exactly how much depends
-on how easy it is for the females to mate with partners of there own type.
(Must have a dominant male or two of the right type)
-as well as how similar they are to each other

Even then its only good to only mix those were you could spot a cross (and cull em/remove em from breeding tanks at least)

But you nearly always have most success breeding with one type per tank. :thumb:


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## daniel4832 (May 8, 2004)

noddy said:


> If you look at the map that comes with the aqualog book, like I did before I posted, you will see that kasakalawe are right at the bottom of the lake and the ndole are just north and to the west. As far as I'm concerned, that is very close. I'm not sure what is incorrect about what I said. Surely you'r not suggesting that my idea of what I consider close is wrong? Bemba and Kasakalawe are at opposite ends of the lake and that is what I consider a safe distance. :thumb:


Acually this thread was about putting Tropheus sp. "Red" from Ndole Bay with Tropheus moori from Mpulungu, not Kasakalawe, which happens to be the next collecting area over from Mpulungu. I bring this point up because the Tropheus moori from these two collecting spots, which are right next to each other, have color varieties that are easily distinguished from each other. The Tropheus from Ndole Bay is not only a completely different species then the Tropheus from Mpulungu, but has about 11 different collecting spots, 9 streams,and a major river between them. My major complaint about both the Aqualog map, and Ad Koning's map is that neither has the scale in miles (or kilometers), this a huge lake one of the largest in the world, and yes I consider what you are calling close is incorrect, but more important is that my major point, that they are two different species is not getting though!
Please read my next post.
Thanks,
Daniel


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## IrkedCitizen (Apr 26, 2007)

Actually from a source ON the lake "ZaMarky1" he says that the Moorii Mpulungu are in fact collected in Kasakalawe. They were simply just called Mpulungu in the past and have now been switched to being called Kasakalawe.


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## daniel4832 (May 8, 2004)

flashg said:


> daniel4832 said:
> 
> 
> > Why would you not mix Tropheus sp. "Red" with a Tropheus moori that comes from the opposite side of the lake, and doesn't look at all the same? There are parts of the lake where 3 different (maps in Aqualog African Cichlids II Tanganyika I Tropheues) live together and don't cross breed.
> ...


It's people like you that keep me away from posting on forums like this!
You know nothing about me, but make a completely derogatory statement like that. I have been keeping and breeding Tangs since the mid-70's. I have over 70 tanks of Tangs. At this time I have four breeding colonies of Tropheus, each colony is kept in a seperate tank. I have never bred a hybrid of any kind, much less introduced one into the hobby.
All I did is try to give Jonathan some information about keeping two different species of Tropheus together, and I have three different people attack me, this is not a good way to exchange information. Just because it's "on the internet', doesn't make it correct, does because "you say so" doesn't make it correct, and saying derogatory statement definitely doesn't make it correct, facts and observation are what make things correct!
Daniel


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## IrkedCitizen (Apr 26, 2007)

IrkedCitizen said:


> Actually from a source ON the lake "ZaMarky1" he says that the Moorii Mpulungu are in fact collected in Kasakalawe. They were simply just called Mpulungu in the past and have now been switched to being called Kasakalawe.


I'll quote myself just in case you missed this, Daniel. It is in between your two last posts.


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## daniel4832 (May 8, 2004)

IrkedCitizen said:


> Actually from a source ON the lake "ZaMarky1" he says that the Moorii Mpulungu are in fact collected in Kasakalawe. They were simply just called Mpulungu in the past and have now been switched to being called Kasakalawe.


Still missing the major point, they are two different species, one being Tropheus moori, and the other Tropheus sp. "red". Tropheus sp. "red" is not a color variety of Tropheus moori, it is a completely different species, as much of a different species as Tropheus duboisi, annectens, polli, sp. "black", sp. "mpimbwe" and, sp. ikola".
Thanks,
Daniel


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

daniel4832 said:


> Why would you not mix Tropheus sp. "Red" with a Tropheus moori that comes from the opposite side of the lake, and doesn't look at all the same? There are parts of the lake where 3 different (maps in Aqualog African Cichlids II Tanganyika I Tropheues) live together and don't cross breed.
> Thanks,
> Daniel


Daniel, care to identify the three variants that live together? I don't have access to the Aqualog.


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

And just a gentle reminder to keep the posts on the topic and not on the people posting, please.  Thanks!


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

At Bulu point there are 4 species that live side by side and swim together.

Point is in captivity these 4 hybridize (Except the Dubs, maybe Dubs are not even Tropheus like the others) Pretty much any cichlid of the same genus cross freely in captivity))


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

And how do you know they don't hybridize in the lake? It seems to me most variants are hybrids. (Playing the devil's advocate at the moment)


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Sure I do not know for sure but as no one has ever found a genuine wild hybrid. It must be pretty rare? In evolutionary terms yep they prob crossed to form some of what we see today in a couple of cases but and its a big but that's thousands of years. Most evolution of Tropheus is though not hybrid derived or so I am lead to believe.


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## flashg (Oct 5, 2007)

NorthShore said:


> And how do you know they don't hybridize in the lake? It seems to me most variants are hybrids. (Playing the devil's advocate at the moment)


This is how new species emerge in THE LAKE... It does not count if it happens in a tank, because it is then man made and NOT a natural occurring species. IMO!!!!!

Daniel maybe you don't introduce hybrids, but from your argument it sounds like you are setting others up to do so!

From my experience it is the older hobbyists that think it is cool to take on hybrid projects to intentional produce new strains, at least in my area anyways! Don't take it so personal!


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Most specification is not hybrid driven or has any hybridization. Tropheus evolution is no different from any other evolution. I have no idea where this idea that there are Tropheus hybrids in the wild comes from. Not any Scientific stuff I have read even mentions it as a method of specification in Tropheus.

Any mention of hybrids?
Phylogeography and Evolution of the Tanganyikan Cichlid Genus Tropheus Based upon Mitochondrial DNA Sequences 
http://www.springerlink.com/content/56yxap263t55qnw0/


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## Furcifer158 (Feb 16, 2008)

flashg said:


> NorthShore said:
> 
> 
> > And how do you know they don't hybridize in the lake? It seems to me most variants are hybrids. (Playing the devil's advocate at the moment)
> ...


Dan's not setting up anybody. I have talked to him and have repetitively said that if there are any fry being produce while I house them together they will be delt with. Food for turtle  . 
He was giving me advice to store them together this was not a long term project. Sorry if I forgot to say this this. I now have extra tanks so they will be housed in species only tanks.


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## Furcifer158 (Feb 16, 2008)

Now back to the hybrids :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

Wes, I don't think he's setting people up to create hybrids. We all make our own decisions based on information presented to us.

*I think there's value in this discussion in an educational sense if we can keep from going after each other and keep the discussion to the topic at hand. *

Having said that, (and it will be my final warning , ) I have read so much bunk on the internet regarding tropheus, I now tend to take a most skeptical view on everything I read simply because it's usually based on one person's experience and then repeated time after time by all sorts of hobbyists all over the place.

Most experienced hobbyists I know don't even bother posting on the internet because they're tired of being flamed by kids who think they know everything and hide behind their keyboards.

Most of the things I've read on tropheus have simply not played out in my tanks. So at this point, I'm quite prepared to take the time to read other opinons and make my own deductions based on that info and my own experiences.


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

24Tropheus said:


> Most specification is not hybrid driven or has any hybridization. Tropheus evolution is no different from any other evolution. I have no idea where this idea that there are Tropheus hybrids in the wild comes from. Not any Scientific stuff I have read even mentions it as a method of specification in Tropheus.
> 
> Any mention of hybrids?
> Phylogeography and Evolution of the Tanganyikan Cichlid Genus Tropheus Based upon Mitochondrial DNA Sequences
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/56yxap263t55qnw0/


Thanks for the info, James. I know you're always digging up journals. Got anymore?


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## daniel4832 (May 8, 2004)

NorthShore said:


> daniel4832 said:
> 
> 
> > Why would you not mix Tropheus sp. "Red" with a Tropheus moori that comes from the opposite side of the lake, and doesn't look at all the same? There are parts of the lake where 3 different (maps in Aqualog African Cichlids II Tanganyika I Tropheues) live together and don't cross breed.
> ...


You will find multiple Tropheus populations (mostly two) in the northern half of the lake, from the very top of the lake as far down to M'Toto on one shore and about Ikola on the other. There seems to be only one "small" overlap in the southern half of the lake around Kisambali, Mtosa, and Namansi.
You really should add this book to your library, it's one of those books that you can learn something new each time you read it.
I'm not saying that I have the only answer to this question, or even the correct one, what I'm trying to offer is 40 years of observation, and information gathered from people like Ad Konings and Peter Schupke writings about Tropheus. I am hurt by those that resort to calling me names because they disagree with me, argue facts not egos!!! 
Thanks,
Daniel


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

NorthShore said:


> Thanks for the info, James. I know you're always digging up journals. Got anymore?


I would dig up a better more recent one, if I thought anyone other than me bothered reading them. :lol:


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

Of course people would read the journals. :lol:


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## flashg (Oct 5, 2007)

Again sorry fellows! I just had a bad experience with some tropheus my buddy and I purchased from a tank that was not supposed to cross. So my two cents is I will never mix colonies (Especially sp. RED)! 
The only way I would is to grow them out or store them for short term like suggested above. But never as a long term thing!!!!!
Peace and with that said I will keep my mouth shut! I am an ******** and I really don't mean to be most of the time! :wink:


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## daniel4832 (May 8, 2004)

24Tropheus said:


> NorthShore said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the info, James. I know you're always digging up journals. Got anymore?
> ...


Guys, 
The information is more up to date in the Aqualog book I referenced, then in the 2002 journal, just a point of information. Also in 1998, Ad Konings noted 8 not 7 species.
Daniel


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Yep
The number of species I am afraid is still debated as there has been no formal description of Ads extra ones to make 8.
(This discounts the polli/annectens debate (same species on two sides of the lake surely some mistake?)) Yes from one line but now surely two species by geographical separation?)
Schupke reckons 13 different lineage's. (He backed off calling them species (Maybe calling them species would imply more than he wanted to say)). Neither view is yet proved by the genetic evidence. Though I think Ads 8 is strongly supported.
Until this is settled there is no real way of saying what is and is not a hybrid. :lol: 
This is a case in point one Sp "Red" (the Ndole) and a Sp "Rainbow" (the Mpulungu) (Sp "Rainbow" confusingly left as moorii by Ad) both still classified by fully described species as moorii.

WE NEED THOSE DESCRIPTIONS!
Me I think crossing any natural varieties is as bad or worse than crossing species.
At least with full species crosses you could possibly tell they were not natural types. :-? 

Just glad this is not for real this time but as so many seem to think hybrids exist in the Lake its pretty worrying that they will feel free to cross and sell on crosses.

(20 years on I still feel bad about crossing Sumbu with Sp "Reds" (all called moorii back then) because I could not get any Sumbu males. The original 1980s Sumbu is now lost to the hobby as the ones exported as Sumbu now are a different fish)


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Some interesting stuff on how moorii colour types might have evolved and I guess is still evolving here.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=1560039

I guess at least something positive came out of the terrible dumping of Tropheus into the wrong habitat and the damage this caused and is still causing.


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## RayQ (Sep 26, 2007)

Tough read (for me anyhow  ) - but interesting none the less.

Ray


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## Xenomorph (Aug 6, 2007)

Definitely an interesting thread.

May I add something, without anyone taking it personally? Daniel, stop taking things personally. Me for example had a first flinch of WTH after reading your first reply to that shot taken at you. Most of the times I found that keeping my composure offered more maturity to my discourse, whether or not substantiated. I see you have a lot of experience and please do not let kids get to you. If I may offer another suggestion is to elaborate on your initial replies which would definitely confer way more force to your response.

Again, I am merely making an observation and not picking any sides, from what I've said one can already draw the conclusion that I already consider the other member's approach hasty and childish.

James, I love Tropheus species, even though I had the audacity to mix my Wild Duboisis with the Emperors. Any articles you source out I vote to be stickied and made readily accessible to those willing to research beforehand, or simply to those willing to substantiate any claims ...no matter how outrageous or pseudo-literate as my reply.

Thankfully yours, 
Marius


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

24Tropheus said:


> Some interesting stuff on how moorii colour types might have evolved and I guess is still evolving here.
> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=1560039
> 
> I guess at least something positive came out of the terrible dumping of Tropheus into the wrong habitat and the damage this caused and is still causing.


That is the most interesting piece of tropheus research I've ever read. I'd heard about the fish dump off mpulungu but never saw any evidence of it.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Yep I think it seems that colour selection by females in the wild has protected the purity of the Mpulungu from this influx of different morrii types (to a very large extent). Sadly in our aquaria the female choice breeding barriers do not work so well. :wink: 
Even Ikola and Moliro cross.


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## redrum (May 15, 2008)

Great photo :thumb: :thumb: :wink:


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## ddaquaria (Jan 3, 2004)

That is an awesome picture 

Hopefully others that wish to mix certain variants of tropheus in their aquariums take note of it.


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## daniel4832 (May 8, 2004)

24Tropheus said:


> Yep I think it seems that colour selection by females in the wild has protected the purity of the Mpulungu from this influx of different morrii types (to a very large extent). Sadly in our aquaria the female choice breeding barriers do not work so well. :wink:
> Even Ikola and Moliro cross.


Talk about a picture worth a thousand words!!!
I have to change my opinion, no mixing of Tropheus!
Thanks,
Daniel


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## flashg (Oct 5, 2007)

daniel4832 said:


> Talk about a picture worth a thousand words!!!


 :wink: opcorn: :thumb:


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## geoff_tropheus (Feb 13, 2003)

I dont have anywhere at the moment to move them or I would, but I've never had a hybrid Ikola and Lupota in 2 years of keeping them together.

BUT...In my experience of all that I have read and witnessed too, sp.reds are the worst hybrid makers out there. Countless forums, and millions of posts read, BE very careful when mixing these guys with anything other than a Duboisi type.


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## julieduchromis (May 6, 2008)

Hey guys, enough's enough. Aqualog' Troph book by P. Schupke is certainly a definative source, but the Germans are who you should be looking at. The troph breeders there have cross bred almost every sp. there is that will cross breed. Of course there are some that won't but the vast majority will. And I agree that troph's in the lake are so vastly varied is because they cross breed in the wild. But in the wild the females have the choice of mate whereas in the tank they are subjected to what men place with them. Hoped this helped settle your issue. Smile! Fish love you!


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