# BIG PROBLEM with Jaguar and Jack Dempsey Mating :o(



## Iffilayo (Nov 19, 2008)

Ok. Here's the problem in a nutsehll:

My boyfriend has a 55 gallon tank with quite a variety of cichlids swimming together. Overall, he has 4 larger sized cichlids (3 Jack Dempseys and one monster of a Jaguar), along with 2 cichlids that are orange, one that's yellow with black markings on his dorsal fin and bottom fins, a small pinkish cichlid with black spots and a strange smaller one that we call the 'alien' cichlid.

Unfortunately, my boyfriend's never been very active in trying to figure out their genders and now the Jaguar, which he assumed was a female, has been bullying and attempting to mate with his Jack Dempsey females. We suspect that he previously killed a smaller male in the tank (we never saw what injured it badly) and a smaller female was pretty banged up and died a few weeks ago (also, we never saw what banged her up, but I suspect it was the Jaguar up to his old tricks).

The problem is, recently the largest of the Jack Dempsey females has been returning his interest, to her detriment. We woke up this morning and noticed that she seemed really worse for wear and seemed to be laboring quite a lot. To my eye, it looks like she's exhibiting classic breeding behavior, like hanging out in and around the cave the Jaguar's been protecting and preparing for the past few months (previously he's chased her away from the area, but now he seems to be going to get her and bringing her over), she's doing a lot of spinning and rubbing against the bottom of the cave and most worrisome, she's been banging herself around alot. Now she just looks very exhausted and scratched up. Periodically she swims away from the Jag and hides, but then she'll swim back and just lie down where he is. He'll lie down with her as well and protect her from the other fish in the tank. Now she's just lying listlessly on the bottom, by herself.

We're worried that mating with the Jaguar has been too violent for her and that her listlessness and laboring behavior is an indication that she'll soon die. Are we just being extra negative or should we be preparing for this eventuality?

My boyfriend is devastated as these fish are his babies. Also, I think he's in shock, as his Jaguar has been his 'little girl' and now he's realizing it's a totally 9" bullish male.


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## clgkag (Mar 22, 2008)

Get a flashlight and check the cave for eggs. But most importantly, WAY TOO MANY big fish for a 55 gallon tank. Even the 9" jag by itself would be too much for that tank. Add in all the other fish and you have world war 3 on your hands. If it isn't breeding agression, it may be territory disputes. Don't be suprised if the jag doesn't eventually kill everyone in the tank. Sorry to be a downer.


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## Iffilayo (Nov 19, 2008)

We haven't spotted any eggs and sadly, it looks like the beautiful female dempsey isn't going to make it. She's rapidly getting worse.

What's strange is, the jag didn't start showing any aggression until it became clear that he's a jag. During the last part of the summer when the temperature in the tank soared to 80Â°, and the gold spotting became glaring obvious. Before that, he was just a black fish with black spots. Since the gold appeared, the fish has grown about 2 inches.

Thanks for your advice. I just convinced my boyfriend to get another tank and to move almost all of the others into that one and let the crazy jag have his space. We're heading out to get the other tank right now. Neither of us wants to see another fish beaten down simply because the poor jag is doing what he instinctively needs to do.


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## RyanR (Apr 29, 2008)

If you want all to survive, break that tank up ASAP. Get the injured fish into quarantine tanks, and add aquarium salt (dosage on label) and possibly Melafix and Pimafix to help nurse them back to health.

The Jag will ultimately need to be homed in a 125g, a pair of JD's will need a 75g and the remaining JD can stay in the 55g:

There's really no way to keep these guys all together in the 55. Jags are just big, powerful fish. Anything smaller than its mouth is food... and nearly anything else is a rival that will be beaten to death.

With the JD's, a male and female will pair up, and the third wheel will take a beating.

-Ryan


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## Nathan43 (Jul 9, 2007)

Iffilayo said:


> Ok. Here's the problem in a nutsehll:
> 
> My boyfriend has a 55 gallon tank with quite a variety of cichlids swimming together. Overall, he has 4 larger sized cichlids (3 Jack Dempseys and one monster of a Jaguar), along with 2 cichlids that are orange, one that's yellow with black markings on his dorsal fin and bottom fins, a small pinkish cichlid with black spots and a strange smaller one that we call the 'alien' cichlid.
> 
> ...


Just to give you a heads up considering the nature of your fish, I am hoping that the orange ones you speak of are not red devils because they will become as bad as the Jag is. If you said orange and yellow, they might be africans. Do they look like this?
Yellow lab
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/Si ... 0_1829.jpg
or this?
red devil
http://www.fishlore.com/Pictures/Profil ... ichlid.jpg
or neither?


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## NORMAND (Oct 27, 2008)

a pair of jds would be alright in the 55g, and the cichlids could be moved to a smaller tank but u devinatley need a bigger tank for that jag


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## remarkosmoc (Oct 19, 2005)

It could be a mating attempt, or just territorial aggression. I think it will be impossible for you to have peace in a 55 with that stocklist even without mating attempts.


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## HiImSean (Apr 5, 2007)

tannable75 said:


> It could be a mating attempt, or just territorial aggression. I think it will be impossible for you to have peace in a 55 with that stocklist even without mating attempts.


i agree. correct me if im wrong but you listed 9 cichlids in a 55g. if it is a male jag at 9", he will get more badass as he gets bigger, heck even a female will. i'd get atleast a 100g for everyone and leave a pair of JD in the 55g for them to do their thing. i have 5 cichlids under 7", 1x7" 1x5.5" 3x4" in my 55g and they are starting to get unruly and they are not even aggressive species.

good luck with them


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## Iffilayo (Nov 19, 2008)

This is the small cichlid we call "The Little Alien" (we think it's a _Julidochromis transcriptus_) Quite a mouthful! This fish was initially Yellow with black and white markings, but then it changed colors just as the Jag did.









This is what we believe is a small male Jack Dempsey. The small female JD was hiding









This is the little yellow and black African Cichlid. I suspect it's a male (could be wrong)









These are the 2 small yellowish-orange African Cichlids. (I'm hoping they're a pair) 









This is "The Spotted Terror" Jaguar Cichlid. As you can see, he's hiding and his colors are a bit muted. Since the weather got colder (we're in NYC) his gold has been going brown more often. He's so long that it's hard for him to fit in his favorite territory, which is a shrine-temple (of course!). 









The little pink cichlid with the black spots (probably a _Chalinochromis sp. "Ndobhoi"_) was just too fast to get a good picture. And the 2 plecos were sleeping behind rocks-- didn't want to wake them, so no photo ops for them.

Unfortunately, the larger female JD didn't make it before we could move her into a medical tank . My boyfriend's very sad at the moment, because she was his first fish and he added the others to give her some company. She was initially the big momma in the tank until the Jaguar, which he got as a 1.5" juvenile, started growing (strangely, the sales people in the pet store had never even heard of a Jaguar Cichlid!).

Because we live in the city, in an apartment, we truly don't have the space for multiple big tanks and at the moment, we're preparing a 30gal tank for the smaller cichlids. We're planning on leaving the Jag and the two plecos in the 55gal and if a war breaks out in the 30gal tank, then we'll spring for a 55gal and hope for the best.

My poor boyfriend. He really never expected to be in the situation he's in. He just wanted to have some beautiful fish who got along in a pretty tank. I swear, he can stare at those fish for hours on end! :fish:


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## Solchitlins (Jul 23, 2003)

Please get that Jag a new home fast!!!!!!!! 
It's crule to keep those fish together in that tank.

Trade your fish in to the pet store if you have to 
and do some research on what to stock a 55 gal tank with.

I just got a free 55gal on craigs list, and it came with a pair of mis treated Jags. They were so miserable, could barely turn around.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... highlight=

I would suggest you get rid of the Jack Dempseys and the Jag and find out what africans you can add to your African stock.

Does this Jag look like he would be happy in a 55 gal tank?









Belive me he needs at least a 6 foot X 18" , 125 gal.


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## remarkosmoc (Oct 19, 2005)

Ifflayo said:


> This is the small cichlid we call "The Little Alien" (we think it's a Julidochromis transcriptus) Quite a mouthful! This fish was initially Yellow with black and white markings, but then it changed colors just as the Jag did.


That's an M. Aratus male.



Ifflayo said:


> This is what we believe is a small male Jack Dempsey. The small female JD was hiding


That one's a green terror, not a JD.



Ifflayo said:


> This is the little yellow and black African Cichlid. I suspect it's a male (could be wrong)


Thats a yellow lab, can't tell gender easily, but more likely female than male.



Ifflayo said:


> These are the 2 small yellowish-orange African Cichlids. (I'm hoping they're a pair)


Those are Red Zebras.

All you need to do is get rid of the Jag. Some will say get rid of the green terror as well, and you probably should, but I've seen terrors mixed in with Africans successfully before. If you get a few more yellow labs they will make a nice colony. The red zebras and the yellow lab could cross-breed. This is okay if you aren't distributing any fry. Lots of thing you *could*do, but the only thing you *need* to do is get rid of that Jag.


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## phishes (May 17, 2005)

I would get rid of the Jag. Even a 75g is barely enough space for an adult. With the other fish, I would either keep the Affricans or the GT in the 55g. Even a 55g is still kind of cramp for a GT too. My theory is that a 55g is really only good for cichlids (or any other fish for that matter) that are 6'' full grown. I say this, because fish need swimming space. 4' doesn't provide enough room for a 12'' fish to swim. 
Also, there is the bio load problem, where large fish create a lot of waste. It is nearly impossible to to keep up no matter what filtration or how many water changes you do. I learned the hard way when I had a 12'' oscar in a 55g. He got HITH, and I had no tank mates, 2 emperor 400s, and did 3X water changes a week. I moved him to a 75g and he got better. 
I want a Jag one day, but I don't have a 125-200g tank, so I will wait.


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## Iffilayo (Nov 19, 2008)

OK. Thanks everyone for the responses. We really appreciate all the info we've been given . It's good to finally have the proper names for the fish. The fact that we have a Green Terror and not a Jack Dempsey male, is a HUGE surprise!  The store that sold my boyfriend the fish, classified it as a Jack Dempsey! We were wondering why it's head seemed so different from the others and why he's rimmed with yellow while the others weren't. Now that we know the proper names, we can begin to learn their correct tendencies and preferences.

Please understand, we feel terrible that the poor Jag has been so cramped. It never occurred to my boyfriend that the little 1.5" fish he bought in January of this year would rapidly grow into such a huge fish and was only told he was some type of rare black African Cichlid (none of the workers in the pet stores we went into had ever heard of an actual Jaguar Cichlid, and when I initially searched to find out what it was, I came across the name "Leopard Cichlid"). We're seriously discussing what to do about the situation. At the moment, we're moving all the other fish, except the plecos (they get along well with our _Spotted Terror_), into their own tank. And as soon as we can, we're going to move the small JD female and what you've told me is an actual Green Terror, into their own tank. I know you're advising us to get rid of the GT, but he's rather mild in temperament and gets along well with the other cichlids. Of course, it's left to be seen how he behaves when the Jaguar isn't around to temper his instinctive aggression. And as for the Jaguar, we both love him very much-- he's such a personality-- and neither of us wants to get rid of him, so we're going to suck it up and invest in a larger tank for him. He seems a lot more comfortable since we moved 90 percent of the tank decorations into the new tank in preparation for moving the other cichlids.

So, thanks again. I'm so relieved I discovered this site. Without it and your insights, we'd probably have lost all the smaller cichlids.


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## bitteraspects (Oct 1, 2007)

............. sorry, didnt see the above post


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## RyanR (Apr 29, 2008)

Iffilayo said:


> And as for the Jaguar, we both love him very much-- he's such a personality-- and neither of us wants to get rid of him, so we're going to suck it up and invest in a larger tank for him.


Brings a tear to my eye! 

Good luck!

-Ryan


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## remarkosmoc (Oct 19, 2005)

Best of luck! Looks like you caught the MTS bug (multiple tank syndrome). :lol:

When your Jag gets into a larger tank with enough room, his coloration will improve and he will become an even more impressive fish. You also will have more room for more africans in his hold tank. I've always kept at least one african and one new world 'show tank'. Having one of each gives you the chance to learn and observe about so many different kind of fish. Its amazing how much behavioral differences there are between substrate spawners and mouth brooders. Please keep this post going with picture updates from time to time; I can't wait to see what the Jag looks like in a proper tank. opcorn:


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Congratts on being caring fish keepersâ€¦ and Iâ€™m sorry you spent money at (what sounds like) a low grade fish store.

First advice, join a local fish club; NYC has several of them. Thereâ€™s a good chance youâ€™ll find people willing to properly house any of the fish you realize you canâ€™t keep. Local Fish Clubs are also a great place to find used tanks or equipment cheap.

This link can help you find one - http://www.cichlid-forum.com/clubs/

Next thoughtâ€¦ a 75 gal tank is the exact same thing as a 55 gal, but with an extra 6â€


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