# Trying south american cichlids.



## CordlezToaster (Jan 21, 2009)

Ok so i have had African cichlids in the past.
And would now like to try out American cichlids.

What are the parameters for the water?
Ph/KH/GH etc
I'm looking at maybe getting some 
Satanoperca leucosticta
Geophagus Surinamensis Red Horseface

I have ordered my new fist tank L-120cm X W-72cm X H-60CM roughly 480 litres.

My Tap water has been tested at PH 7.2 so what can i do to bring the ph down? driftwood? plants? Leaves?

Cheeers


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## elusivedream (Jan 7, 2010)

You will want high ph, not low ph. I believe that all SA cichlids prefer I higher ph. However wood brings ph down crushed coral and Sodium Bicarbonate (Baking soda, only a temporary increase) will raise ph. There are also commercial products that will adjust ph. It is always best to let your fish adjust to your ph if possible instead of constantly trying to correct the ph. A small bag of crushed coral in your filter will keep a very constant high ph your fish will surely enjoy.


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## adam79 (Jun 27, 2007)

South America is a big continet with a wide range of water throughout. The fish you mentioned would prefer neutral ph, soft water. You ph should be fine. Breeding may be a different situation.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

elusivedream said:


> You will want high ph, not low ph. I believe that all SA cichlids prefer I higher ph. However wood brings ph down crushed coral and Sodium Bicarbonate (Baking soda, only a temporary increase) will raise ph. There are also commercial products that will adjust ph. It is always best to let your fish adjust to your ph if possible instead of constantly trying to correct the ph. A small bag of crushed coral in your filter will keep a very constant high ph your fish will surely enjoy.


...? Most SA's prefer soft water, CA prefer hard.

Most Satanoperca species like water with a pH of 5, or even less in some cases.

Geophagus surinamensis are fairly close if not non-existent in the hobby, and have been for decades, as I understand, any seen in your LFS will be a mislabeled closely related species (altifrons, abalios, dicrozoster, and many more).

With that said, the 2 you listed both grow to 10-12", and both prefer groups, however, if you start with 6 leucosticta and weight for a couple to start breeding, you could remove the rest and hope the pair get along nicely for life. I often do not recommend any Satanoperca to tanks under 6 feet, but nonetheless, keeping them in a 4 foot is far from impossible.


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## elusivedream (Jan 7, 2010)

I shouldnt have spoken in generalized terms that was wrong of me. I have GT's. My tank runs at a pretty steady 7.5 ph. I consider that a high ph. Its been my experience that most people generally shoot for a high ph. However I still say that its best to use the ph straight out of your tap if possible.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

My two cents worth. There really aren't many suitable Geophagus species for a 4 foot tank. Certainly not Satanoperca leucosticta, or one the the G. Altifrons variants that are often sold as Surinamensis here in Australia.

Here is a link to an Aussie site that will tell you what is available in Australia, EartheatersAustralia. Two species that will fit in your tanks and are fairly common in Australia are, Geophagus sp. "Orange Head" and 'Geophagus' steindachneri. I would not consider mixing the two species in the one tank however.

You might want to check a few of the local forums to see what is available in Melbourne, particularly Discus Forums as quite a few of the locals there are Vics and a couple have very contacts with many LFS and suppliers. You may also find it much cheaper to buy through the Members Classifieds trade forum there.


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## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

I agree...IMO a 4ft. tank is too small for these fish.



elusivedream said:


> I shouldnt have spoken in generalized terms that was wrong of me. I have GT's. My tank runs at a pretty steady 7.5 ph. I consider that a high ph. Its been my experience that most people generally shoot for a high ph. However I still say that its best to use the ph straight out of your tap if possible.


7.5 is really not that high a pH at all. Considering 7 is neutral. High...at least to me, since I've also kept many Lake Malawi and Tang cichlids, is like 8-9. As mentioned, a very good number of South Americans actually like low to extremely low pH levels. I agree that's it's normally best to not try to mess with it too much, but that would really depend on the specific situation with the fish (buying wild caught fish, for example, you'd need to aim for their natural conditions).


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

elusivedream said:


> I shouldnt have spoken in generalized terms that was wrong of me. I have GT's. My tank runs at a pretty steady 7.5 ph. I consider that a high ph. Its been my experience that most people generally shoot for a high ph. However I still say that its best to use the ph straight out of your tap if possible.


Green terrors are hardy, but still do prefer a pH lower then 7, at around 6.5.

Ideally, go for Geophagus sp."Red Head", Geophagus steindachneri, or Geophagus sp. "Pindare" if you can find them.


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

elusivedream said:


> You will want high ph, not low ph. I believe that all SA cichlids prefer I higher ph. However wood brings ph down crushed coral and Sodium Bicarbonate (Baking soda, only a temporary increase) will raise ph. There are also commercial products that will adjust ph. It is always best to let your fish adjust to your ph if possible instead of constantly trying to correct the ph. A small bag of crushed coral in your filter will keep a very constant high ph your fish will surely enjoy.


Terrible information.

Most SA species, particularly those asked by the OP, prefer soft and acidic water.



elusivedream said:


> However I still say that its best to use the ph straight out of your tap if possible.


This is just beyond illogical...


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

CordlezToaster said:


> Ok so i have had African cichlids in the past.
> And would now like to try out American cichlids.
> 
> What are the parameters for the water?
> ...


The easiest way is to add driftwood. Don't get the stumpy ones with large footprints, and try to leave as much floor room as possible for your fish. You can also add peat moss in your filter, etc., but pH7.2 isn't the end of the world by any stretch. Use sand substrates and NOT crushed corals. Repeat - do NOT use crushed corals.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

gage said:


> Green terrors are hardy, but still do prefer a pH lower then 7, at around 6.5.


I'm not going to say that acidic water of pH 6.5 or lower does not exist on the pacific slope/ drainage of Ecuador and Peru, because it might some where, but you would be very hard pressed to find it . Never mind made up fish profiles because that is what they are -MADE UP. Anything I have ever seen from an ACTUAL pH reading taken from waters in this area are usually a pH of high 7's or low 8"s. Note the pH 8.2 of waters that A. stalbergi was taken from in this link. That's an ACUAL reading taken from the water were the fish was collected from. Also note the blue acara from trinidad taken in pH 7.5. ( of course a completely different area but just but goes to show that higher pH is not peculiar only to one part of SA) This is one link but I have also seen many other ACTUAL readings from fish collection expeditions, academic papers on water quality ect. ----- all show higher pH for this area.

http://www.lem.net/alf/aeq.htm


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

bernie comeau said:


> gage said:
> 
> 
> > Green terrors are hardy, but still do prefer a pH lower then 7, at around 6.5.
> ...


Interesting, and not what I've been told from others, but good to know. I've been under the assumption (as well as a lot of others, obviously) most if not all of Peru and Ecuador was pH below neutral.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

You have to remember the Pacific coast of South America is on the opposite side (westen side)of the Andeas to where the Amazon has it's begginings in the Peruvian cloud forests (eastern side).

It's not surprising that the east coast streams and rivers have higher PH readings.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

DeadFishFloating said:


> You have to remember the Pacific coast of South America is on the opposite side (westen side)of the Andeas to where the Amazon has it's begginings in the Peruvian cloud forests (eastern side).
> 
> It's not surprising that the east coast streams and rivers have higher PH readings.


Yes, that needs to be emphasized. I am refferring to waters moving west ward, not east. And simply because I am unable to find any acidic waters from this area does not mean they do not exist here anywhere as were still dealing with a fairly large area; different habitats. Though, I must add, I have read readings from a number of rivers from which green terrors come from , and all have been alkaline.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

And_ A. stalsbergi_ has even been recorded from brackish water. Festae as well I believe.


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## CordlezToaster (Jan 21, 2009)

Hey guys my tanks ready to have fish added now.

What is my ideal gh and kh?
Im looking at stocking it with Geophagus Araguaia, i really want to try for a biotope tank so i would also like to stock it with fish from the same river.

Any recommendations ?

Cheers


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

I wouldn't worry about Melbournes water paramaters for keeping and breeding G. araguaia. They have been bred locally down there for the last 4 years or so in normal tap water. I'd be more concerned about sourcing quality individuals. Put some wtb adds on Discus Forums and PlecoFanatics and try and source from different breeders, hobbyists and LFS.


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## japes (Jan 10, 2008)

Hyphessobrycon amandae (Ember Tetra) and Thayeria boehlkei (Blackline Penguin/Hockeystick Tetra) are both found in the Rio Araguaia. I was always hesitant to use Embers though as they max at around 1" (2.5cm). Other Characins include Hatchetfish, Dwarf Pencilfish (Nannostomus marginatus)

Corydoras choices are also quite limited, with none commonly available in Australia. Corydoras araguaiaensis is very similiar to Corydoras julii/trilineatus (aka Leopard Corydoras) though, which are easy to find. Otocinclus will also do nicely, as well as Farlowella Whiptails - you won't get the exact species in Australia)

Edit: If you were so inclined, you could also branch it to the Rio Tocantins, which would open up access to Hyphessobrycon eques, aka Serpae Tetra.

Orange Heads are hardy fish and will be comfortable in most relatively neutral water, they're also quite prolific breeders. I've put Cordleztoaster onto someone from ACE, but unsure of quality.


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## CordlezToaster (Jan 21, 2009)

Ok no good with the guy from ACE he sold them .
Have left some WTB ads on those 2 sites mentioned above. Im hoping i can find a private seller because my lfs is selling them for $40 each at 2-3cm big.

Now my LFS told me that i shouldn't get the hockeysticks or any tetra that size because they will only get eaten down the track, he said id be better off getting the hatchet's. Does these seem right?

As im new to this i didn't think earth eaters would eat other fish hence the name.


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## japes (Jan 10, 2008)

CordlezToaster said:


> Now my LFS told me that i shouldn't get the hockeysticks or any tetra that size because they will only get eaten down the track, he said id be better off getting the hatchet's. Does these seem right?
> 
> As im new to this i didn't think earth eaters would eat other fish hence the name.


They won't, and I guess the guy at your LFS hasn't seen a full size T. boehlkei; they're big.

I'd be hesitant with Ember Tetra, but anything over 3cm will be fine.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

I kept Lemon tetras, Hockey stick tetras and marbled hatchetfish with my geos for over a year without any loss to predation at all.


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## Dook (May 13, 2009)

anyone aware of any breeders of either biotope "orange head" stateside?


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## CordlezToaster (Jan 21, 2009)

ok the corydoras that my lfs have are:
Leucomelas
Reticulatusa

Will either of these be ok or should i look at one of the mentioned ones.


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## japes (Jan 10, 2008)

Interesting, have never seen either of those species up here. The C. reticulatus will do nicely.


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## CordlezToaster (Jan 21, 2009)

will it still be a biotope if i get lemon tetra?

A quick read on the wiki site tells me they are from the same river rio tapajos.


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## japes (Jan 10, 2008)

There are varying definitions of biotope, some use it to simply describe a naturally scaped setup. Even I'm loose with it, with one of my setups being simply fish from the same system.

All depends on which Orange Head variant you end up choosing.


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## CordlezToaster (Jan 21, 2009)

Thanks Japes

Well down here (victoria) no one seems to be able to tell the difference between a tapajos and an araguaia so sooner or later ill probably end up with both, but ill most likely end up with araguaia. So will the lemon tetra go ok with them?

And will it be ok to mix the hockeystick in later?

Do you know of any good sites that go into greater detail about both tapajos and araguaia?


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## japes (Jan 10, 2008)

Heres a website created by ozarowana and myself which details some differences. The key is to not end up with both. Buy one batch from the same seller and stick to them. Dominant, well conditioned males are the easiest way to pick between variants/species.

http://eartheaters.qldaf.com/index.php?page=orangehead

I had the Araguaia variant, and kept 42 Lemon Tetra in a 5 foot tank with them without any issues. Hockeystick Tetra can be frustrating as they are quite often very conspecifically (to their own kind) aggressive - I started with fourteen, had about 5 jump over the course of 9 months, and then purchased another 8 or so only to have them boxed into a corner by the dominant specimens in the tank.


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