# Fish Room, Need Opinions & Ideas



## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

My wife finally caved! my fish rack in my living room just wasnt enough anymore. right now it consists of 2x 75g tanks and 3x 10g tanks. and i have a 55g and a 20g high tank. we are going to buy a smaller sofa to fit where the current rack is, and im taking over the one entire wall.
the space i have available is 115" wide, 85" high and a maximum of 30" deep. i need at least 8" between the top of the tanks and the next rack above, but i would really prefer 10". i wont need to get behind the tanks for anything, i have the filters, heaters, etc all wired to switches, one switch for each tank and i plan on doing the same for the new rack. i just need to be able to remove the filters for cleaning.

im at a loss here. i was thinking 6x 30g breeder tanks and 2x 75g. two rows of 3x 30g breeders on the bottom and 2x 75g on top. but thats getting a little tall. about 70" to the top of the 75s. im going to draw up some designs tonight to get opinions. anyone have any ideas i should keep in mind when i start planning? my general thought is to have tanks for breeding colonies, fry, and display all in one area. set up a drip system and drill overflows into all the tanks to eliminate water changes and use my electric vacuum to clean the sand. right now i have all my breeders in the 2 75s. i want to have one species per tank and replace nearly all my fish with f1 or wc to increase desirability and quality.

ideas are appreciated. and any advice on drip systems is as well. im considering a 3 or 4 stage filter setup (1 or 2 sedimant filters and 2 carbon block filters) and a drip system. drill all the tanks (no cheesy diy overflow that will fail and flood my house) im on municipal water in philadelphia though, im not sure if the carbon filters would be enough to put the water straight into the tank


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

Sounds like a fun project, I'm jealous!
What types of fish are you looking to breed? That will help determine the breeder tank sizes.


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

im sticking to mbuna for now. breeding yellow labs and socolofi for now, looking to get something a little more rare. i figured 40 gallon tanks should be enough. where the rack will be i cant get to the back of the tanks. so i need to leave enough room between tanks to pull out the filters for cleaning or replacement. if only the ceiling in that area was a full 8 foot and not 85 inches haha


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Have you considered using sponge filters for the tanks? They are most commonly used for breeding rack setups, especially when you don't have access behind the racks. They can be air driven using a large air pump and a PVC manifold or you can use Hamburg Mattenfilter (HMF) style filters for the smaller tanks with either air lifts or power-heads.


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

I was considering it but I've never used them before, i made sponge attachments for the hob filters in my fry tanks. would it be enough biological filtration for up to 12 full grown fish?


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## Mschn99 (Dec 24, 2012)

Yes, sponges are amongst the best biological filtration you can run. In my fishroom that is all that i run for filtration. There are some things to consider in a fish room

First of all is cost to operate. Running heaters in every tank sometimes is not the best way to go. I heat the air in my fish room to 81 degrees and then have two attic fans (the thermostatically controlled ones) set up to kick on when it gets warm up high. I just built a custom "grate" on the bottom side of them and hung them with chain from the ceiling. I can then adjust what fish are on what levels by how warm i want the tanks. Natural gas in california is a TON cheaper than power. Running sponges off of a central air pump is also very energy efficient.

Drip system is my next step. Im adding another 21 tanks and 4 large grow out tubs as we speak and they will all be run on a drip system. Its my biggest regret with my main rack. I cannot offer advice on the filtration side though as we have no chlorine or chloramine in our water so i dont have to filter it.

A couple other ideas........high output LED strip lighting can be siliconed to aluminium flashing to make a reflector and more energy efficient lighting. THen run the lights on a timer as well.

Look into having a low temperature thermostatic mixing valve installed in your fish room. This will make it so you dont have to set the water temp for filling. It will do it on its own. I then have a dial temp gauge on the output of my mixing valve.......when the temp drops i know the hot water heater is empty and the valve can no longer regulate the temp........

Try to have a floor drain in the fish room, its much nicer that way

And INSULATE INSULATE INSULATE..... Also consider the humidity. I had a painter come into mine with some super high tech stuff that they use in the super hot yoga studios.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

You may have to use multiple sponge filters depending on the stocking level of the tank. The ATI sponge filters are one popular brand and I have a few of them in my tanks as secondary filters for emergency use or for new tank setups. I use mostly HMF style filters in my 30/40 breeder tanks but they do reduce the footprint of the tank by approximately 3 inches.

If you are planning on breeding fish for sale or trade, you will be somewhat limited by not having separate fry raising tanks. Mbuna, depending on species, need a bit more room than a 36" long 30/40 breeder tank to hold more than a 1 male to 4 female ratio, at least in my opinion.

Another point to consider when breeding fish for profit is to find out which fish are not available in your area. Labidochromis caeruleus are commonly available so don't usually command much of a price compared to the LFS.


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## lilscoots (Mar 13, 2012)

definitely go with central air pump and sponges. so much cheaper in initial cost and cost to run. LED strip lights are nice as well, i'm in the process of switching over to them. I've been contemplating heating the room instead of each tank, but my fish room is still a room where we'd like to hang out (the TV is there) and the door is open a lot (3 kids under 6) so at this point I'm heating each tank. And I'm also in the process of drilling all my tanks for a drip system. I have to contend with chlorine though so I'm working on a solution for that as well.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Poret mattenfilters would be a better choice with an air system. They filter more and last longer than sponge filters. Plus being a wall, they are attacked less often than sponge filters. Cichlids are among the fish that sometimes bit chunks out of sponge filters. Although they would be able to do it, I have yet to see any teeth marks on my Mattenfilters, some of which have been with cichlids for years.


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

so much good info, thanks guys. so let me address some of this.

im not planning on breeding for profit as of right now, i just enjoy the process of breeding and raising the fry. as long as the breeding covers the cost to run the aquariums, im happy. the "fish room" is technically my living room, so i cant just heat the whole room. we live in an 800 sqft apartment now, and i can do whatever i want as far as tearing down walls and modifying the living space goes because i was the one who did all the work in the first place haha. the end all plan is to bank enough money to buy a house in the next few years and then i can really expand my operation.

the rack im building now will be for the breeding colonies and the two 75s will either be all male display tanks, more breeding colonies or maybe, and i hope it doesnt come to this, a growout tank haha. im also building a small rack on the opposite side of the room for 10 gallon fry tanks. and ill have a few extra tanks in the shed if things get too over run. like right now. *** been slacking as far as selling fish, i need to get back on track. it would be easier to expand with less fish.

i do have a floor drain, which is awesome. when i build the rack i plan on running a pvc drain and then just run flex pipes from the tank to the drain system

im looking into more rare species to breed, but the few lfs i talked to said yellow labs and socolofi are big sellers and they will take them when i have them, just because they know they will sell. they offered me 25% of the retail price. i guess thats okay, and saves me the hassle of shipping them if i sell on aquabid. like i said, for now, i just want to support the hobby.

i live in philadelphia so the chloramines in the tap water are ridicolous. *** pulled tap water with over 40ppm nitrates, .5ppm ammonia. its horrible. im just going to install a 3 stage carbon filter. one stage of sediment filter and 2 carbon blocks. im looking at housings on the filter guys website, but im not sure if the quality would really be better that things i could get on amazon cheaper.

as far as the drip system goes, i still have some research to do. a lot of guys use drip irrigation systems, but nowhere local stocks them. i liked the "dig" setup because the emitters were 2 pieces that come apart so you can clean them if they clog. but with a 1 micron filter, i would hope they dont clog at all.

if only clover hydro hadn't shut down haha


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

40 gallon breeder, all glass, 36x18x16, roughly 450lbs full.

what would happen if you supported the tank by only the corners? and i mean, a 1"x1" area in each corner?

not that i plan to do this, im just concearned about the posibility of breakage if the supports have the posibility of flexing, even if the corners are well supported. im considering making the cross supports out of 2x4s laid down (2" side facing out) with 7/16 osb or plywood on top. im just trying to prevent flexing and gaps appearing under the tanks. but its only a 36" tank. i cant imagine it not being enough support. especially since they will be dado cut into 2x6 or 2x8 legs. so regardless, the corners will be very well supported.

any thoughts? im hoping to start this weekend so i have to figure this out


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

one more thing i forgot, the supports will be 115" wide, spanning from wall to wall, not separate 3ft pieces. with legs on either end and between tanks for support. but the ends will also be attached directly to the wall, so there is no worry about flexing or tipping over. im pulling down the drywall and adding 2x4s for additional support. i might not need to, but i have to trear it down to do plumbing and wiring anyway, so why not. haha


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## lilscoots (Mar 13, 2012)

You'll be fine.


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

starting the build this weekend. already moved out the sofa. went to petco to ask when the dollar a gallon sale is, "soon" was all they would tell me, no definite dates. but they had a stack of 40b tanks taller than me. so with any luck ill be able to get all 6 of them in one shot. then i just have to pick up one more 75 and im set!

also showed the wife some of the salt water fish while we were there (she fell in love with a few). and i will have a 55 empty after the build. so with any luck the other rack i was going to build for the 10 gallon tanks might have a 55 salt tank on top. FOWLR, no corals for now. but still awesome. do like a 55 on top and 4 10s under.


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

Keeping in mind that this rack is going in my living room so i want to try to keep noise at a minimum, what air pump would supply enough air for all 8 tanks? And how loud will this style pump be?


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## Mschn99 (Dec 24, 2012)

ilm121209 said:


> Keeping in mind that this rack is going in my living room so i want to try to keep noise at a minimum, what air pump would supply enough air for all 8 tanks? And how loud will this style pump be?


Get a linear piston pump for sure if your looking to keep noise down. You can then build or purchase a manifold to hook the air lines too that has valves on it. Your sponges bubbling will be ten times louder than the pump. PM me if you want a recommendation for a source.


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## hose91 (Mar 5, 2014)

ilm121209 said:


> 40 gallon breeder, all glass, 36x18x16, roughly 450lbs full.
> 
> what would happen if you supported the tank by only the corners? and i mean, a 1"x1" area in each corner?
> 
> ...


Not sure I'm following you exactly about the "laid down" 2x4's and how long the span of those will be, but it's worth knowing that the displacement of a beam is proportional to the CUBE of it's height for a given load. So if you turn a 2x4 on its side, you've reduced it's height from 3.5 inches to 1.5 inches, giving it something like 12 times more deflection for a given bending load(3.5/1.5= 2.3333, 2.333^3=12.7) Wood in compression (end loads on a vertical beam, say) is very strong, and 4 1x1 supports would probably be ok, though not terribly resistant to the side "racking" forces, which you've noted, I think. You've probably already thought about it, but I'm not sure how water resistant OSB is in the long term, and if you're planning on using it, I'd protect it with something to extend its life. It will surely get wet regularly, though probably never soaked. I'm surprised at how often the plywood workbench surface in front of my little 10g planted tank gets wet.

Also, rumor has the petco 1$ a gallon sale from 29 June to 12 July (Pacific NW, anyhow). Also I hear through the grapevine that Drs Foster and Smith are having a sale, and that the Petco 20% off friends and family sale is also happening up through the 28th, FWIW.


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

The racks will be 115" across, but will have supports between each tank. Assuming the minimal flexibility of an all glass tank, i think i will be good.

I'm having some trouble figuring out where to drill the tanks. Don't want to have to install internal overflow boxes, just a bulkhead and a strainer. Or an elbow if need be. But i can't find Good info on that...


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## anthraxx4200 (Aug 16, 2012)

i know its been awhile, petco is having their sale now, but i will caution you that lids + taxes will set you back a lot farther then you think. they make u pay the full price in tax (so nearly 800$ in taxable merch.) plus u need lids. petsmart is doing a similar deal but its 2$ a gallon and u get lid/light w/ it. i know it may not seem better but in the end i woulda saved myself some money going that route. GL to ya.


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

thanks for the info. i actually know a store in my area with greatttt prices on lids. just the plain glass lids but thats all i need.

things got really held up, its going to be like another 2 weeks before i can build the rack. but it is what it is i suppose.

also i was looking into the air pumps, when all is said and done, i will be running 6x 40 gallon tanks, 2x 75 gallon tanks, 4x 10 gallon tanks and 1x 55 gallon tank. if i run a sponge filter and a small bubbler in each tank, maybe 2 bubblers in the 75's and the 55, how much cfm do i need from the pump? is there a way to calculate that? or does anyone have experience and can throw me a suggestion? i dont mind getting one a little larger than i need, but i dont want something huge and loud if it isnt necessary. thanks in advance


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

ilm121209 said:


> 40 gallon breeder, all glass, 36x18x16, roughly 450lbs full.
> 
> what would happen if you supported the tank by only the corners? and i mean, a 1"x1" area in each corner?
> 
> ...


I saw a fish room with all tanks supported only on corners like you said. It was in a century home. The basement floor was, well "not level" does not describe it. Frozen surfing waves might come closer. There were 2 by 4's bolted to the oak floor joists. Horizontal short pieces were carriage bolted to these vertical stringers that did not always reach the floor. Even 55 gallon tanks were suspended this way. The tanks were probably all older thicker glass tanks. There were no acrylic tanks, which I think would fail quickly without full bottom support.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Well not quite like you said, an inch and half all the way along the short sides of the tanks.


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

Been away from the forum for a while. The rack is built and i am in the process of filling it with tanks. Who makes the best sponge filters for the 40b?


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## Mschn99 (Dec 24, 2012)

Imo api hydro pro #5. Course sponges like that last much longer.


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

Thanks for the reply. I'm just hesitant to swap out emperor 400s with a sponge filter. I've used a fully cycled emperor 400 on a fry tank with over 100 1 inch fish. Had to do 2+ water changes a week to keep the nitrates down but 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite always. Would that filter support even half that bio load? Given that when my other tanks are added i hope to never have to do that many fish again


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

What if i did something like this? What gph would be appropriate?


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## Mschn99 (Dec 24, 2012)

I run almost 55-60 tanks on nothing but sponge filters. Some tanks I run multiple. The filters are plenty capable. Putting power heads on top just uses unneeded electricity compared to a central air pump imo.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

I like the Poret sponge that fits on one end of the tank. It works better than most other sponge filters, probably because it has so much surface area and volume. It also eliminates the problems such as dealing with fish hiding behind the filter when you are trying to net them, or to look at them.

Air power is the way to go with sponge. Many of the filters Ilm showed with powerheads will shrink to a fraction of their size when clogged and the vacuum of the powerhead is stronger than the sponge, and cleaning will not restore them.


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

I've been running a sponge attachment on all my fry tanks for a year with no shrinkage, aside from bigger fish attacking it and chewing pieces off, i guess it depends on the sponge. I'm planning on stopping at my lfs tonight to have them order me a few of the ati hydro pro 5s. I'm also planning on grabbing a single low gph powerhead. Maybe 50-100gph. I'll do some research on how many gph those sponges typically run at on air and go 25% to 50% higher. I'm going to throw them side by side in the same tank to cycle, and take a picture of them from the same angle every few days to look for any signs of shrinkage with the power head vs the one running on air alone. Sounds like a fun experiment. I would prefer to use the powerhead because it would do more as far as mechanical filtration goes and for circulation. i would clean them once a week when i do my water changes. I will keep you guys informed.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

> ilm121209 said:
> 
> 
> > I've been running a sponge attachment on all my fry tanks for a year with no shrinkage, aside from bigger fish attacking it and chewing pieces off, i guess it depends on the sponge. I'm planning on stopping at my lfs tonight to have them order me a few of the ati hydro pro 5s. I'm also planning on grabbing a single low gph powerhead. Maybe 50-100gph. I'll do some research on how many gph those sponges typically run at on air and go 25% to 50% higher. I'm going to throw them side by side in the same tank to cycle, and take a picture of them from the same angle every few days to look for any signs of shrinkage with the power head vs the one running on air alone. Sounds like a fun experiment. I would prefer to use the powerhead because it would do more as far as mechanical filtration goes and for circulation. i would clean them once a week when i do my water changes. I will keep you guys informed.


If you clean them weekly, you will probably avoid them clogging, which is when the sponge shrinks. I should have mentioned more clearly that it is clogged sponge that shrinks. Your experiment will not be a test for shrinkage if you make sure that there is no clogging.

From observation, I would believe that a good airlift like the Jetlifter will outperform a powerhead in mechanical filtration and circulation. You can see the flow from the airlift does not diminish like the powerhead can. Because aeration is important in biological filtration and also creates a lot of current, the airlift has an advantage. Biological filtration helps clear out the debris that would impede mechanical filtration so the airlift would seem to work better, although a sponge is a more important biological filtration tool than it is a mechanical one. Socks and prefilters that are changed out once or more often weekly are better mechanical filters. Just one opinion.


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

*** been looking into the hmf setup. That airlifter design moves some serious water. But the foam is so expensive. Anywhere to pick it up cheap? I still prefer the standard sponge filter Because i could hide it behind rocks but I'd like to try out the hmf on a tank. They claim you don't have to mess with it for like a year at a time?

Petco dollar per gallon sale is right after Christmas. I think I'm only picking up 3 more 40b for now, the other 2spaces will be for the 10g tanks until i make another rack for them. I'm also looking into making covers for the gap between the top of the tanks and the rack above to give it a cleaner look.


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