# Filter Overkill?



## johnnymarko (May 30, 2014)

55 Gallon tank. All male Malawi. About 12 adult fish.

Currently running a Fluval 206 and 306. I have a 406 I want to add and replace the 206. Then I thought, why not run all 3?

I realize it seems crazy and wasteful electricity wise, but if it is just going to sit in storage why not add some water volume and even more turnover to the tank.

Thoughts?


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## workharddieproud (Nov 7, 2013)

Can't over filter, I have 4 on my 125G.


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## hisplaceresort1 (Mar 10, 2014)

I run 2 ea Cascade 1500's and 1 ea Fluval 406 for a total of about 1100 gph on my 75 gallon. In my Fluval, I use it primarily just for mechanical filtration. I only have the coarse, black sponge in the bottom, the white filter/polishers in #2 and 3, and in the top I either run it empty or occasionally and for short periods of time, activated carbon. The Cascades have the Purigen and other biomedia in them.


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## johnnymarko (May 30, 2014)

hisplaceresort1 said:


> I run 2 ea Cascade 1500's and 1 ea Fluval 406 for a total of about 1100 gph on my 75 gallon. In my Fluval, I use it primarily just for mechanical filtration. I only have the coarse, black sponge in the bottom, the white filter/polishers in #2 and 3, and in the top I either run it empty or occasionally and for short periods of time, activated carbon. The Cascades have the Purigen and other biomedia in them.


Hmmm....never thought of that...I might consider placement of the 206 and use it solely as mechanical and polishing...


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## hisplaceresort1 (Mar 10, 2014)

I just put the intake of my 406 directly "behind" one of the intakes of the 1500's. What I mean is, whichever way the poo is coming, flow wise, toward your intake, you want more poo to hit the intake of the filter with the biomedia first. It helps me anyway.


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## chopsteeks (Jul 23, 2013)

Guess real question is ---- What is the purpose of over-filtering ? Are the water parameters off with your current filtration ? I do not subscribe to over - filtering just to over filter.


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## areuben (Jul 17, 2003)

Agree with chopsteeks - if the tank is currently well filtered biologically/mechanically and there are no issues with parameters, an additional filter isn't going to achieve much - there is only so much food for the biological filtration to convert - adding another filter will simply spread the nitrification to 3 cans instead of two with no meaningful biological improvement -if there isn't enough food for the bacteria in the filters, they die off - same in nature with predators, when their numbers peak above the sustainability of their prey, they naturally die off and adjust. When you cycle a tank with ammonia, if you stop adding the ammonia , or food, the cycle will eventually stop as the bacteria die off. What an extra filter will get you is either additional mechanical filtration or extra flow/surface agitation - if that's what you are looking for put a powerhead or 2, like the MJ with a sponge over the intake can achieve that pretty easily. And those sponges take 5 seconds to clean out and rinse under water each week versus opening up another can. 
Now if you were planning to add another 6 adults to your tank, different story possibly but I don't think you'd be doing that in a 55.


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

I wouldn't bother... all those intakes and returns.. electrical usage, for no benefit IMO. I'd go with maybe the 406 and a hob filter for polishing etc and that would be it.

My 180g has 2262, FX6 and a 110, the 110 runs just foam blocks most of the time, but its very easy to add carbon, or polishing floss. I don't like the idea of floss in canisters, I'd rather disturb the canisters as little as possible, which for me is twice a year, with floss that would become monthly.


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## BDASTRK (Dec 12, 2014)

Yes add it, the whole philosophy of killing off Bacteria theory is BS, however I personally if I was forced to run these types of filters certainly would try to find a blend of Mech and Bio to keep the tank as polished as possible. Trust me you have nor will ever here of anybody saying ( I PUT TO MANY FILTERS ON MY TANK ) and now my bio is dead. Really :lol:


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## hisplaceresort1 (Mar 10, 2014)

I actually had to run another filter, at least I _felt _that I needed another one... I didn't do it just because I wanted to waste electricity! 

With all the deco/hiding places in my tank, there was way too much poo staying in the gravel/dead spots. The additional water movement helped me... I had, seemingly, enough bio-filtration in that I didn't have trouble with nitrite or ammonia. But what I have seen since adding the Fluval is that my water is clearer and definitely less poo when I clean weekly.

So I stand by the fact that I needed the "additional over-filtration", even if it doesn't involve _biological _filtration.

I guess the real question is "What is _your _definition of _over_-filtering?"

If your definition of over-filtered is "more filtration than a manufacturer's box recommendation", then pretty much _all _cichlid keepers "over-filter", don't they?

If your definition of over-filtered is "more filtration than 8-10x/hour", which seems to be kind of a "cichlid-keeper constant", then I guess I would fall into needlessly over-filtered... But comments like, _"if you are adequately mechanically and biologically filtered already..." _ mean just _what_, exactly? That you have exceeded filtration generally accepted by the Borg as the cichlid-keeper constant? Again, it's a great place to start, but doesn't mean it's optimal for everyone, or that exceeding it some is a bad thing. And +1 on BDASTRK comment... haven't heard anyone say they killed their bio by having too much filtration in general...

If your definition of *proper* filtration is "as much as I seem to need with maybe a little extra", then you and I would agree on the terminology. As for me, my tank is cleaner, my water is clearer. When I do my weekly water changes, there is less poo. That's not subjective opinion, those are facts.

Also, I can clean the fluval in my tub with scalding hot tap water if I want to... because I don't care if I'm killing off any bio in this particular filter. I can clean it better and faster and keep it doing what I have it for - basically mechanical filtration/water flow in my tank. And it will probably let me mess with the other two filters less often. (that remains to be seen... haven't had the third filter running long enough to really prove that to myself yet)

johnnymarko - why don't you try it and see what your results are?  I'll be interested to hear from you. opcorn:


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## areuben (Jul 17, 2003)

Whoa, who ever said anything about killing bio? You gotta read more than 40 words BDASTRK. If you did read more than 40 words and still disagree, then that's your opinion. But you don't have to tell me I'm BS'ing.
My point was related to the additional filter not adding any further biological benefit.

The point was the bio in the filter(s) will multiply as per the food available, like ammonia. You can have your FX whatever on a 125G tank with 2 fish - how much bio do you think will grow and be sustained in that FX?? If you think unlimited and not in relation to the 2 fish bioload then I suggest you try adding 12-15 adults to the tank and see what happens?? Do you think you might have a spike? 
Try a fishless cycle with ammonia and stop adding ammonia for 2-3 days , what do you think happens to the bio with nothing to feed it? What do you think happens to the cycle?? 
BDASTRK - try running your tank for a couple of weeks with no fish in it and then go to your LFS and bring home a dozen fish or so? Think you might have problems - oh yeah, you thought that was BS.
You might find a reading of Fishless cycle by Jay Luto in the Cichlid Forum Library of interest.

_Here's a small quote from his article:
Once the tank has been cycled, the bacterial colony created by this method can handle a large bio load immediately. The amount of Ammonia produced directly relates to the amount of bacteria that will be in the tank (Bio Load). The amount of Ammonia added to the tank during the cycle is significantly higher than what would be contributed by a small number of hardy fish, therefore, a much larger, healthier bacterial colony exists at the end of the cycle using Ammonia than would if you used fish._

There's a reason guys that do the fishless cycle keep adding ammonia until the day they're ready to add fish. Your question of have you ever heard someone complain about too much filtration?? why would they complain, I wouldn't expect it. Doesn't mean its useful. A person might live in the city and do fine with a sub-compact car, but why not get a Hummer - I have never heard any complain about too much car??
The OP's opening comments suggested he knew it was crazy and wasteful. Would there be any upside to the extra filter - yeah, possibly as I first suggested for mechanical for for flow but you could achieve that easier and just as effectively with a couple of powerheads, that you could adjust and point strategically.
Killing bio, who said that?


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## BDASTRK (Dec 12, 2014)

areuben said:


> Whoa, who ever said anything about killing bio? You gotta read more than 40 words BDASTRK. If you did read more than 40 words and still disagree, then that's your opinion. But you don't have to tell me I'm BS'ing.
> My point was related to the additional filter not adding any further biological benefit.
> 
> The point was the bio in the filter(s) will multiply as per the food available, like ammonia. You can have your FX whatever on a 125G tank with 2 fish - how much bio do you think will grow and be sustained in that FX?? If you think unlimited and not in relation to the 2 fish bioload then I suggest you try adding 12-15 adults to the tank and see what happens?? Do you think you might have a spike?
> ...


Here is what I know about the subject and even though on paper and in articles it all makes since, and I thought that very thing until about 10 yrs ago. About every 2 to 3 yrs I cycle out the lot of fish I have, size............Anywhere from 50 all they way up to 100, Dump them all to a LFS. There wasn't much Stock this particular round, and I only brought home 15 young juveniles, a few weeks went by and Steve at the Wet Spot had about 40 fish for me to take home and I dumped them all at once, even though apprehensive I went ahead and did it, I took water samples daily, yet still kept them on their 2 feedings a day................ZERO SPIKE....................NONE!

Do I believe it can happen...............Sure, Can a person put too much Canister filtration on his or her tank................NO! Can they put too much of 1 and not enough of the other Mech vs Bio.................Yes, but you could put 10 Canister filters on a 125 and I assure you nothing but less maint and less **** in the tank will be the results. So when the average Joe asks a question regarding is adding 3, 4, 5, **** even 6 canister filters the answer should be Yes add away, your life will only be better not worse.


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## johnnymarko (May 30, 2014)

hisplaceresort1 said:


> johnnymarko - why don't you try it and see what your results are?  I'll be interested to hear from you. opcorn:


I will. I'm going to list my get the 406 up and running tonight by moving some media from the 206 in there, and using the 206 as mech/polishing only.

I'm going list the 206 for sale on craigslist, and if I get a decent offer, I'll remove it. But I would like to see if I get any benefits from running all 3.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

According to Tim Hovanec, supplemental bacteria go dormant and don't immediately die off. I'm sure that eventually they do but we're talking months here, not hours or days. This is what makes bacteria in a bottle viable.


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## The Cichlid Guy (Oct 18, 2014)

GTZ said:


> According to Tim Hovanec, supplemental bacteria go dormant and don't immediately die off. I'm sure that eventually they do but we're talking months here, not hours or days. This is what makes bacteria in a bottle viable.


This seems to be the case, in my experience. I've had filters in/on empty tanks remain "cycled" whether the filter was running or not. As long as the bacteria stay wet, it has survived for months.


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

Have to agree with those that have posted about there being no benefit to over filtering. If the one filter is doing the job with regards to bio/mech and all the parameters are in line what is the benefit to having more filters, more electricity consumption, more maintenance etc. I suppose when you buy a new tank your will have a seeded filter to transfer. Personally I think that power heads and the water movement they provide would be a better use of your money. Water changes are what it's all about really.


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## BDASTRK (Dec 12, 2014)

Let me try to explain this in a different way.

Every 60 to 90 days one replaces there Furnace filter, because there is only 1 filter, now if you had 3 filters how often would you have to change your filter? This isn't any different here, the more filtration the less frequent you have to change or clean it out, it simple mathematics people. Why do you think I refuse to use those worthless canister filters, who most have to clean them often, I can run my ocean clear with on average about 4 X as many fish as the average person on here and have to change my filter out every 6 months, and not because it needs it but because it is part of my maint schedule.

Again there is NO SUCH THING AS OVER FILTRATION!!!


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## chopsteeks (Jul 23, 2013)

BDASTRK said:


> Let me try to explain this in a different way.
> 
> Every 60 to 90 days one replaces there Furnace filter, because there is only 1 filter, now if you had 3 filters how often would you have to change your filter? This isn't any different here, the more filtration the less frequent you have to change or clean it out, it simple mathematics people. Why do you think I refuse to use those worthless canister filters, who most have to clean them often, I can run my ocean clear with on average about 4 X as many fish as the average person on here and have to change my filter out every 6 months, and not because it needs it but because it is part of my maint schedule.
> 
> Again there is NO SUCH THING AS OVER FILTRATION!!!


Slap a Fluval FX6 into a 20 gallon --- please do not tell me this is not over-filtration.


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

Cyphound said:


> Have to agree with those that have posted about there being no benefit to over filtering. If the one filter is doing the job with regards to bio/mech and all the parameters are in line what is the benefit to having more filters, more electricity consumption, more maintenance etc. I suppose when you buy a new tank your will have a seeded filter to transfer. Personally I think that power heads and the water movement they provide would be a better use of your money. Water changes are what it's all about really.


I swear, there are times that I feel people here feel that if there is extra space on the back rim of a tank, it is under filtered.    Your point about using actual data to determine filtration is spot on.

Also the discussion should include the difference between filtration and circulation. The example of a FX6 on a 20 is beyond silly, as it would be a whirlpool from a circulation perspective. Having that much bio would be inefficient from a cost/benefit perspective. Yes, one could theoretically go much longer between filter maintenance, but there is still a build up of waste in the filter that is getting larger and larger over time. I'm not sure that is optimal in terms of water conditions either. If it were, there surely would be a movement afoot where we all had 100+ gallon sump/wet/dry filters supporting that same 20 gallon tank.

Just because your ocean clear filter can go years and support 4x the fish, blah blah blah, does not mean your water parameters are good. Bigger can be better, but is not always so.


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## chopsteeks (Jul 23, 2013)

BDASTRK said:


> chopsteeks said:
> 
> 
> > BDASTRK said:
> ...


Your logic is flawed to say the least !!

5lbs of fish poop is 5 lbs of fish poop. Reason why you have bio-media is to convert this 5lbs of fish poop from ammonia->nitrite->nitrate.

Now your mighty FX6 with all its biomedia will do an excellent job in converting ammonia and nitrite into nitrate. Unless your FX6 is really really special, it will do nothing to reduce your nitrate. Well, to reduce nitrate, you either have to reduce your bio load by reducing number of fish and/or reduce feeding and/or do more frequent water change.

Unless you do any of the above, your 5lbs of poop that your mighty FX6 converted into nitrate is still in your closed system.

If your over filtration logic can magically make these nitrate disappear, go to the patent office and your will have more money to indulge in Hummer of all colors imaginable....


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## BDASTRK (Dec 12, 2014)

I don't run a FX6, POS in my opinion. I run an Ocean Clear, I run Wet Dry, I run a Aquaripure De-Nitrate filter and I run a UV sterilizer. And a typical response for someone who doesn't have a clue as too what I run for filtration. Every response I make has ALWAYS been based on the right filtration system which 99% of the people on here don't even know what that is.


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## Mudkicker1 (Aug 6, 2013)

The Cichlid Guy said:


> GTZ said:
> 
> 
> > According to Tim Hovanec, supplemental bacteria go dormant and don't immediately die off. I'm sure that eventually they do but we're talking months here, not hours or days. This is what makes bacteria in a bottle viable.
> ...


I have my doubts about this. Just last week my canister filter motor stopped working. I left the filter on the tank unplugged but closed for a full week before I took it down.
When I opened it up, oh boy, the smell was PUTRID! I could not believe how bad it smelled. Stunk up the whole basement. I don't know for sure, but I assume that the small came from the dead/dying bacteria. I am just happy that I did not slap on a new motor without cleaning out the canister first.


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## BDASTRK (Dec 12, 2014)

Mudkicker1 said:


> The Cichlid Guy said:
> 
> 
> > GTZ said:
> ...


Don't you think that had something to do with the fact it had no Oxygen? Now we are now talking two different scenarios.


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

johnnymarko said:


> 55 Gallon tank. All male Malawi. About 12 adult fish.
> 
> Currently running a Fluval 206 and 306. I have a 406 I want to add and replace the 206. Then I thought, why not run all 3?
> 
> ...


If you want to run all 3 go for it, if you don't then don't. If there is a choice between under filtering, and over filtering then over filtering will win. In the end Nitrifying Bacteria will only populate as much as it can based on the quantity of the food source it has. So if your tank is already balanced with 2 filters, then adding a 3rd IMO is simply removing portions of the populations in the other 2, and as it colonizes the 3rd your right back to where you were with the original 2. The only gain here is a higher rate of water turn over, and a seeded backup filter if one seizes to work at some point.


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## johnnymarko (May 30, 2014)

CrypticLifeStyle said:


> johnnymarko said:
> 
> 
> > 55 Gallon tank. All male Malawi. About 12 adult fish.
> ...


Thanks. I'm going to set up the 406 and 306 as mechanical and bio, and leave the 206 just as mechanical. I'm setting it all up tonight. I'll try and remember to report back in a while if I notice any improvements/problems/changes. Or if it is just a waste and can get away with just running 2.


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

"Yes, but you could put 10 Canister filters on a 125 and I assure you nothing but less maint and less #%$& in the tank will be the results". 
Flawed logic but the filter manufacturers must see you coming a mile away.

Whatever waste is in your filter contributes to nitrates. It's a closed system. By removing waste it reduces nitrates. Weather you have 3 or ten filter or one the total waste is still the same amount of waste. Media in the filter merely trap wastes, food particles, and detritus. Until you clean or replace the media, the dirt is simply out of sight, but it's still adding to the nitrate load of the water. 
Sure you reduce maintenance but your still leaving waste. It appears that your justifying less maintenance with better quality water. BUlls!$%. If your any kind of fish keeper you do water changes weekly and it's what gives your fish the best water quality. I have a canister that gets cleaned once every 6-7 weeks. Total additional time added to a water change. About 20 minutes. If your not willing to commit that amount of time to the hobby, get a different hobby. At the end of the day whatever floats your boat but while your adding another filter to your tank to reduce the time you have to dedicate to your hobby remember the fish need room to swim too.
Mike


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

BDASTRK said:


> Cyphound said:
> 
> 
> > "Yes, but you could put 10 Canister filters on a 125 and I assure you nothing but less maint and less #%$& in the tank will be the results".
> ...


Very difficult to respond to this post without coming across as a complete jacktard, but I'll try.

A wise man once pointed out to me that if you have an opinion, and share it, and everyone disagrees with you, there is a good chance your opinion is wrong.

Coming to this site recently, and being contentious in every post is not going to win you influence and support. Insulting people who you don't know, many of whom have been in the hobby for a long time and who are quite accomplished aquarists is not helping your cause. You'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, so to speak.

I'll turn your question back on you - *show us the proof* there is no such thing as over-filtering. Someone else earlier pointed out that filter effectiveness can be measured by the tank parameters (mainly nitrogen cycle), and thus shows that it is possible to find a good balance of enough filtration.

My guess is that the reason you only do changes with your Ocean clear canister - (you do realize it is a canister, right?) every 6 months or whatever is that they are a pain in the arse to open up and clean, unlike many of the "cheap canisters" all of us ignorant hobbyists use. All of the snake oil stuff in the world won't replace water changes in terms of maintaining consistent water parameters.


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## Mudkicker1 (Aug 6, 2013)

opcorn:


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## BDASTRK (Dec 12, 2014)

Nodima

Here is the thing at the end of the day you are right, I have ALWAYS had a HUUUUUUUGE problem with false statements, Face to face, Forums, chat rooms, News Paper articles it doesn't matter it truly irritates me when people open their mouth a spew ****. I am and I will admit it a very over powering man, been that way as a child and it is no different as a middle aged adult, Not one of my traits that society agrees with. But here is the thing..........I am also a person who does not speak with an iron fist if I do not know first hand about something.

So now that we have that cleared up, let me move on to having people on my side or in my corner..............I really at the end of the day don't need, want or care if they are on my side or not to be perfectly honest with you. I am not looking for a friend, as painful as it must be for some to realize I am here to educate........Strange method I get and if you don't take it then so be it.

Onto my set-up and yes I realize it is a canister filter, but listen I also realize that Kia makes a car..........But so does Ferrari and the bottom line is if I owned a Kia I certainly wouldn't be badgering with someone about performance when he drives a Ferrari.............Or a Jaguar for that matter.

Now onto my supplying proof, And no I do not have any supporting DATA to back up my claims, didn't realize at the time that people would actually second guess that the Ferrari would outperform the Kia.............But I should have known that there would be people who would being they LOVE their Kia. I also offered someone proof, Now of coarse the stood to gain a Fluval FX and $500 worth of fish if they where right, and I got the opportunity to shut up a bunch of Kia driver and run over the filter when I was right, but I have yet to hear back from that particular individual.

As far as cleaning my canister filter, You do a little research on the Ocean clear..........Then you revisit your statement on how hard it is to clean. I can tell you this, I can change out all the filter media in that Ocean clear in 1/10th of the time it takes you to clean a FX6. Now if you want to actually look at the Snake oil as a whole and continue to badger with me regarding its performance then let me rattle off to you the set-up, You can look into it as a whole and then question my water peramiters. At any given moment in between my maint intervals you can take a water sample and unless I see a huge difference in the Tap water which I do from winter months to summer months, these measurement will show you the following

Amonia 0
Nitrites .25 to .50
Nitrates 5 to 10
PH 8.0 to 8.4

From Day 1 to 180 days PERIOD!!!

So below is the set-up, you go do some homework and then come back and see if you can give an educated opinion on my parameters or not. Odds are you either don't come back, or you say..................It is a possibility that BDASTRK is right..........But he is still a A$$! I can live with that,

1) 150 gallon Truview with over flow box (2) Inlets
2) Wet Dry filter, Stage 1 Poly batting, Stage Two Carbon, Stage Three 5 gallons Bio Balls Powered By Little Giant 4MDQ Series Pump
3) Ocean Clear Canister filter 40 SQ Ft cartridge, 15 Poly scrubbing pads
4) Ocean Clear Canister filter Carbon Only
5) Aquaclear 40 wat UV Sterilizer
6) Aquaripure XL De-Nitrate filter
7) Little Giant TE5.5 running both Ocean Clears


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## smitty814 (Sep 27, 2012)

:zz:


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## johnnymarko (May 30, 2014)

Holy cow, you guys have some egos you need to leave at the login page...

You can debate all you want, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm done with this thread for a while. As of last night, I have a 206, 306, and a 406 on a 55 gallon tank. I'm not lazy, I don't mind tank maintenance (I actually enjoy spending a couple hours a week on the tank), I don't think I'll get a huge benefit out of having 3 canisters on such a small tank, I just had them lying around and figured I'd try it. My water parameters were fine before installing a 3rd, and I'm sure they'll stay fine having all 3 running. After getting everything fired up last night, I doubt I'll have all 3 on this tank for very long.

Thanks for the advice everyone........(I had a different message typed up to end this, but I referred myself to the first sentence in this reply)


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## BDASTRK (Dec 12, 2014)

johnnymarko said:


> Holy cow, you guys have some egos you need to leave at the login page...
> 
> You can debate all you want, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm done with this thread for a while. As of last night, I have a 206, 306, and a 406 on a 55 gallon tank. I'm not lazy, I don't mind tank maintenance (I actually enjoy spending a couple hours a week on the tank), I don't think I'll get a huge benefit out of having 3 canisters on such a small tank, I just had them lying around and figured I'd try it. My water parameters were fine before installing a 3rd, and I'm sure they'll stay fine having all 3 running. After getting everything fired up last night, I doubt I'll have all 3 on this tank for very long.
> 
> Thanks for the advice everyone........(I had a different message typed up to end this, but I referred myself to the first sentence in this reply)


 :lol:

That's funny!


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## johnnymarko (May 30, 2014)

BDASTRK said:


> johnnymarko said:
> 
> 
> > Holy cow, you guys have some egos you need to leave at the login page...
> ...


What are your intentions in regards to using this forum?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Once again, BDASTRK has successfully shared his opinion by harshly criticizing everyone and diminishing anyone else's thoughts, opinions or experiences.


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## BDASTRK (Dec 12, 2014)

JohnnyMarko

Read my last post on Page two it actually explains the answer to your question.'

Iggy

If Harshly is calling the majority of the members canister filters a KIA then you are correct sir it was Harsh. On the other hand and I have no problem with your opinion or anyone elses opinion, only problem I truly have is the true lack of knowledge of Bio and how it truly reacts when dispersed through multiple filters. And the fact that Not even I who runs 20 X the water changes per hr and more Bio then I would venture to say then just about anyone on this forum per gallon of water and have YET TO EXPERIENCE this so called Over filtering scenario that seems to possibly take place when adding addition filtration to a system that already is under filtered.

So if that is too harsh and my sarcasm is a bit over powering...............Well you know what to do sir!


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

It's not just this thread man... it's everywhere you go. There's a hundred ways to do things and express your thoughts. Your approach is just rude. I actually liked the KIA reference...


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## BDASTRK (Dec 12, 2014)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> It's not just this thread man... it's everywhere you go. There's a hundred ways to do things and express your thoughts. Your approach is just rude. I actually liked the KIA reference...


I have been told that before. :thumb:


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

I don't think there is anything productive coming out of this thread any more. Locked.


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