# Groups of Rams



## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

I am reading that Bolivian Rams do well in groups and Blue Rams do not...

Can anyone with experience in keeping Rams as adults in groups please share their experience...

Do they socialize as a group, then pairs break off and spawn? Do the breeding pairs interact with the group? Do they interact as a group or simply accept each other's presence...

I have kept Apisto Cacs as a 'Colony' in a 6â€™ tank and was thoroughly amused by the social interactions between fish. Smaller males had little territories... larger males had larger territories... the two mack daddy males each claimed half of the tank... smaller males submitted to the authority of larger males... females frolicked everywhere seeking the attention of the largest male available... small males snuck in the nest as the big male left to spread a little of his seed... females worked together to care for broods and one female was often left caring for several broods while the other mothers went off to spawn again...

Will a group of Bolivians be anything like this? what will they be like?...

For reference, I am considering making some changes to a densely decorated 6' 125 gal to include a group of Geo Steinys, Apistos and possibly a group of Rams... I want breeding to go on in this tank although I have no desire for the tank to "produce fry"...


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Oh you'll definately get breeding from steinys :lol: And you _will_ have fry from them :lol: do you want some from me? I've got a few hundred :lol:

ps. I don't know anything about rams


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

IME Blue rams do not do well in groups at all, it seems once there is a pair the pair breaks off and kills the rest... happened to me and a close friend of mine.

I currently own 5 Bolivians, they seem to change there behavior quite a bit. I have 1 male and 4 females. none have paired off yet, however at some points they hang as a tight group and other times they are all over the place almost as in "everyone for themselves" kind of attitude.

With the Bolivians, once a pair breaks off they will have there alone time together in there territory as well as hang with the group, seems pairs get along very well together and even at points school together. males very rarely if ever cause harm to one another but will show off to eachother and spar.

from what I read of your post on Apisto's it seems that Bolivians are quite a bit more loyal to there partners, they do no constantly cheat on eachother :lol:

now, with comparisons between them and Apisto's I am not sure, as I have never kept Apisto's before (though I plan to hunt down a trio of A. agassizi but have not had much luck...


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## Ronny_M (Jan 8, 2009)

In my experience, Blue ram pairs cant be kept with other pairs or rams.

I recently bought 14 german blue rams, 7 males and 7 females.
I waited for them to pair up and seperated them.
I must have been very luck as I ended up with 7 pairs! 

After seperating what I could, I had three pairs in a 6 foot tank, which didnt last long at ll, they all wanted the same spot and fought ALOT.

I ended up giving a friend of mine who has a 10x2.5x2.5 tank, three pairs.

I thought in a tank that big they'd be able to keep away from each other and not cross each other.

He now has one beautiful pair and a lone female...


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Blue rams are deffinately more aggressive, especially towards mates, than bolivians ... despite being half the size. My blue rams never grouped and soon I did have to remove pairs into seperate tanks, much as *Ronny_M* did.

I have kept bolivian rams as a breeding pair in a 20 gallon long. After reading through 'the thread' ... I deffinately want to try bolivians in a group much like their larger _Geophagus_ and _Satanoperca_ cousins. Will need a larger tank though, a 4'x18" 75 gallon or even better, a 75 gallon long (5'x18").

Just keep in mind *Toby* that your redhumps are insanely unusual for geo's and don't represent the behavior of the family. They are orphaned genus wise for a reason. I mean any Neotropical fish that acts like a Malawi tetra. Really!! :x


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

It figures that the Geo I have the most first hand experience with is the one that doesn't represent the rest of them... DwarfPike, if you want to elaborate a bit more on the differences between Red Humps (steindachneri) and other Geos I'd much appreciate it, despite it being a tinge off topic for the thread.

So I accept it as confirmed, adult Blue Rams will not do well in groups...

I'm bummed to not have found much first hand experience with keeping adult Bolivian Rams in groups...

I am seriously considering adding them to a 125 tank that has a breeding colony of Red Hump Geos (steindachneri) as the primary occupants. I'll also have to remove the large BGK... I hope to leave the young adult pair of Elliot Cichlids. They can be a bit aggressive but they stay close to their nest and I'm hoping the Rams learn to stay clear of it. The Adult Blue Dempsey pair don't seem to have any interest at showing aggression toward the smaller 2" Geos so I am assuming they will be find with 2" Rams...


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

I wonder why Dutch Dude and Blair haven't posted yet...

but regardless, Bolivians always do better in groups, my, Dutch Dude and Blair's experience as well.

read through the BRC - Bolivian Ram Club thread and look at there site http://brc.moonfruit.com/#/care-maintenance/4528902938


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

I didn't mean to minimize your experience keeping them in groups Gage, when you said they hadn't paired off yet I assumed they were still fairly young.

I am sure the information I am looking for is in the BRC thread, but I'll be honest, I haven't been foloowing it and it being 114 pages long makes it a bit intimidating to open for the first time, lol.


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

Toby, no one will blame you for not reading through the BRC thread :lol:

I've grown out bolivian fry together from birth to well past maturity, which occurs around 8-9 months, and on to nearly 2 years of age. At all points along the way, they do great in groups. Even after three pairs formed, along with many batchelor males and females, there were still no problems. Of course, in groups they do have a difficult time raising fry. Some initial partner switching does occur, but after 2-3 spawns they usually stick with the same partner. They defend small territories and within a group aggression is never an issue. They bicker, go through the usual rituals of display and sometimes run intruders out of their territory, but I've never known an injury of any sort to occur. Honestly, I can't recall a torn fin in any of my bolivians. During courting and spawning it is even rare for lip-locking to occur. If kept as pairs or in small groups, females can be stressed by males.

Ruurd has been very busy and probably hasn't read the thread since it doesn't say "bolivian" or "discus" in it :lol: You can always PM him if you want to know his experiences, he's kept groups of 6-12 together long term, and certainly has the most experience with them.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

Toby_H said:


> I didn't mean to minimize your experience keeping them in groups Gage, when you said they hadn't paired off yet I assumed they were still fairly young.
> 
> I am sure the information I am looking for is in the BRC thread, but I'll be honest, I haven't been foloowing it and it being 114 pages long makes it a bit intimidating to open for the first time, lol.


LOL, I was just being sarcastic, no worries :lol:

I completely agree with you, that is a looooong thread... to long for me, but the answers from Dutch Dude to me should be in the last couple pages 

btw, they are far past sexual maturity, and there is 1 male and 4 females, I think he is having a hard time choosing who he wants most :lol: I think I need more males... they are 2.5" and I could get a pic of them if you would like  more color then any blue ram I've ever had...


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## bayoucichlids (May 19, 2006)

Pics please...that's always good...


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## M0oN (Dec 8, 2003)

Think of bolivians like mini geophagus - minimal aggression, and a lot of displaying between males. I've found blue ram are a lot more aggressive and will actually go to the lengths of killing one another - as well as killing bolivians.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

The red hump trio acts much deffinately than others in the Geo group, indeed I believe they are the only New World cichlids that are immediate/advanced mouthbrooders. Much like Malawian mbuna, there is no pair formation. The male will spawn with the female, and she is left to her own devices. Other geo's, even those that mouthbrood, still form true pairs, with both parents responsible for the fry, albiet in differant ways depending on the species.

Even other new world harem cichlids (apisots come to mind), there is still a "pair" in the sense that there is cooperation between the parents to defend the fry. In apistos, the male will guard the outter territory. But in the red humps, it's truely love them and leave them.

Also, they tend to be rougher with each other than true geo's. They seem to do better, again like mbuna, crowded. Your tank is much bigger than I had mine in (40gal breeder), so I could only have one male. Even with 3 females, I had to have other fish as he was quite rough on them.

It's often been said that jewel cichlids are 'honorary' central americans and kribs are 'honorary' south americans. If this is the case, Red Hump geo's would be 'honorary' africans. :lol:


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Thank you very much for that explanation DwarfPikeâ€¦and now knowing more so of what you meant, I have to agree  Iâ€™ve never really kept any rift lake Cichlids so all I know of them is the basic knowledge I couldnâ€™t help but learning being in the hobby.

My group of (at least) 25 or so Red Hump Geos definitely appears to be a â€œlove â€˜em and leave â€˜emâ€


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

So... does this mean you don;t want my red hump fry? LOL


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

lol, I have a group of 25 with about 6 females holding...

I'll trade ya... lol


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

I've got two spawns... 9 left of one and over 50 of the second one LOL Think a group would manage in the 1500?


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