# First Tang shellie tank



## shaunpitzer (May 8, 2008)

I have a 55gal ready to go and here is what I am looking at trying:

6 brevis or multie

8-12 cyps or paracyps

3-6 syn. pekoltia

Any opinions?

All except the cats are pretty common in my area. Not cheap, but common. Also, would I have to add anything to the water to keep the pH and hardness up other than limestone rock and maybe some crushed coral in the filter? Thanks in advance.


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## alicem (Jul 26, 2007)

> I have a 55gal ready to go and here is what I am looking at trying:


Does this mean you have your tank filled and cycled?


> Also, would I have to add anything to the water to keep the pH and hardness up other than limestone rock and maybe some crushed coral in the filter? Thanks in advance.


This depends on how far off your pH, KH and GH is...
What is your reading for your tap pH?
What is your reading after letting the tap pH sit in a container for 2, 4, 8, 10, 24 hours?
Now what is the KH of the tap? It shouldn't change, so right out of the tap.
Now what is the GH?
You may not need to add anything to your tap for initial fill and water changes, other than conditioner for the chlorine and chloramine.
Give us some more info so maybe we can advise.


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## shaunpitzer (May 8, 2008)

Does this mean you have your tank filled and cycled?
No, but I have tank, stand, rocks, sand, and some of the equipment and I will be assembling the whole shebang tonight to start the cycling

What is your reading for your tap pH?
9.0

What is your reading after letting the tap pH sit in a container for 2, 4, 8, 10, 24 hours?
No idea, but I will find out

Now what is the KH of the tap? It shouldn't change, so right out of the tap.
about 85ppm

Now what is the GH?
about 150ppm

my other tanks are 7.2 - 7.4 so I assume the high pH is due to local water station processing because I think the pH is high for the low hardness, but I will let some tap water sit out overnight and see what the pH and such is tomorrow and repost.

Please, ask more questions if other info I am overlooking would help you answer my questions, especially about compatibility.

Thanks


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## alicem (Jul 26, 2007)

Well then, congrats on your new setup! These are exciting times for you. :thumb: 
 
If your 55g is 4' your stock list sounds fine to me.
I have 15 non-jumbo cyps in my 75g. They seem to be getting along just fine.
Is your goal to get these fish to breed? 
I'm pretty sure the syno petricola will eat the fry and probably the eggs.
I agree, tho, Syno. petricola are very cool looking fish. 8) 
If raising fry is important, you _could_ instead get a small julidochromis type (if available to you) for the rocks and a BN plecost. for algae control.
Otherwise, imo, your origional choices will work and you can still add a BN later if you have an algae issue.

I'll bet the pH will change after sitting out especially since the pH is so low in your other tanks. 
For example, my water is strange and changes over nite.
It comes out of the tap @7.4 and raises to 8.2 after I aerate it for several hours.
This has something to do with off gassing of co2 in the water. 
Yours may do the opposite of mine, because of what you already pointed out, the way the local water co. does it's processing.

I think in terms of "dh" instead of "ppm" ...hence the ( ):
KH of about 85ppm (4-5dh)
This allows the pH be a little unstable. I think it's said KH of 143-178ppm (8-10dh) better buffers the pH from dramatic swings.
Baking soda (found in the spice sect. of the grocery store) will raise the KH.
GH of about 150ppm (8dh)
That is a little soft, but not outrageous.
It's not too tough to gently raise GH with epsom salt (found in the pharmacy at the dept. store).

Do a little experimenting with baking soda and epsom salt _*after*_ you find out what the pH does on it's own.
Keep notes so you remember exactly what you did and how it changed the water.
Everyone will agree, it's best to not fiddle with the water much, if possible. Stability is the goal. 
However, using only slight adjustments outside the tank, to get the replacement water constantly the same, won't hurt anything.
Now is the time to see what's happening with you water, rather than after you invest in fish. :thumb:

Good luck with your cycle process and I hope I helped you some.
Alicem


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## Alleycat (Dec 2, 2006)

alicem said:


> Keep notes so you remember exactly what you did and how it changed the water.
> Everyone will agree, it's best to not fiddle with the water much, if possible. Stability is the goal.
> Alicem


What great info you're offering alicem :thumb: I always wish 28 days later I'd taken notes


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## alicem (Jul 26, 2007)

Alleycat said:


> I always wish 28 days later I'd taken notes


20/20 hind sight, eh, Alleycat?
:lol:


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## shaunpitzer (May 8, 2008)

Thank you alicem. I have only been in the hobby for 4 months, but I do keep a log of everything I do, water changes, purchases, and I keep all receipts, but I am anal about that kind of stuff.

In my other tanks, I always have driftwood and have been keeping most SA cichlids. I suppose I should forget the driftwood altogether in a Tang tank. I posted my stocking on cichlidae.com in the ask Pam section and she wasn't too keen on the cyps in a 55, but others in my local club haven't had any problems in the stock 55. I will probably skip the petricola because I would like them to breed, but maybe I will get tired of that and introduce them later.

After a few hours, the GH/KH is 9/4 dH and the pH is still 9. Maybe it is just an aged softwater tank. Will it do any good to get the Seacham lake salts or buffers?


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## alicem (Jul 26, 2007)

Yeah, I tend to be anal about keeping logs and testing, but I prefer to be referred to as "organized" :thumb:

Also, the thing about specialized fish keepers is they want optimum conditions for their fish, especially if breeding them or in a show room setup for perfect coloration.
Some people often advise rainbows in a 36" and smaller tank (I've read from the 
"rainbow experts" that they need at least 48")...
or that it's ok to put rainbows in high pH, (too generalized, there are several different types and some are ok, and some, not so much...)
or that clown loach must be in groups of 5 or more (personally I have 2 and they are a joy)...
and it's ok to mix them with Malawi (kind of a scary thought for me)...
or put Tangs in with Mbuna (ouch)...
I guess it depends on who you talk to and what their priorities are.
As long as you go with non-jumbo I don't see a problem, but that's just me...
If you are really worried, go with the paracyps but get a nice group of 8-10 so they'll have buddies, like you planned.

Do you put tap water (declorinated) directly into your SA tanks? If so, then the pH is 9 going in and drops to pH 7.4-7.2 over time?
Hard to believe drift wood would alter it that much...
Your filters move the water making it aerated, so that my be what's changing the pH over time.
I aerate mine in a prep tank in the garage with an air bubbler for several hours (like 8-12hrs.) before getting to the final pH number.
This gives me time to warm the water with a heater, add epsom salt and baking soda in prep. to use it for my partial water changes.

Hey, I just remembered, you are setting up your new tank. 
After you get the substrate rinsed very, very well, add your rocks and "what nots", then fill that bad boy up with water.
Omit the drift wood for now. 
You can turn on your filters and start cycling it and test the pH at the same time. See where it starts and goes to without altering it.
Also, this will test the driftwood theory. :thumb:

KH of 4 is a little low and that makes it unstable. 
Later we'll try adding baking soda to some experiment water.
But let's do one change at a time, so as to not get them confused. 
Those things affect each other and I'm interested to find out what drops the pH in you SA aquarium first, aren't you?
Alicem


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## shaunpitzer (May 8, 2008)

My SA tank is a 29 gal and I do 3gal water changes every week. No ill effects.

I pulled the tap water at 10 AM EST and it is still rock solid at 9/9/4 for pH/GH/KH.

I think I will add stresscoat and test.

I do have 2 decent size pieces of driftwood in the SA tank, but I just want to put a small one in the 55gal with some java fern on it for some color. I am washing sand tonight and will put in water tonight and tomorrow night and keep a close eye on parameters.

When you start a new tank, do you use water change water from other tanks to help kick start cycling, do you add ammonia, biowheels, sponges, hardy fish, or let it take course naturally?

I like to use water change water for at least a portion because I think it really accelerates the process, but I am hesistant with the totally different environments. Thoughts?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I use a filter, filter material and/or substrate from an established tank.


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## Alleycat (Dec 2, 2006)

DJRansome said:


> I use a filter, filter material and/or substrate from an established tank.


I do the same and also use water from other tanks to fill it up.

just my 2cents


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## shaunpitzer (May 8, 2008)

I will do some of that too and kickstart the cycling.

Well, after 9 hours of sitting around at a rock solid 9/9/4 ph/GH/KH I added the requisite amount of Stresscoat and aerated for about 30 minutes and the result was 7.5/9/3 for pH/GH/KH. Looks like aeration maybe liberated co2 from the carbonate hardness and the pH dropped like a stone. Good, now I know pretty much what I need to do. Thank you alicem for prompting me with your questions. Should I just go the baking soda/epsom salt route, or should I invest in cichlid buffer and lake salts for that natural feel? I want them to breed. (Who doesn't) :wink:


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## shaunpitzer (May 8, 2008)

I will do some of that too and kickstart the cycling.

Well, after 9 hours of sitting around at a rock solid 9/9/4 ph/GH/KH I added the requisite amount of Stresscoat and aerated for about 30 minutes and the result was 7.5/9/3 for pH/GH/KH. Looks like aeration maybe liberated co2 from the carbonate hardness and the pH dropped like a stone. Good, now I know pretty much what I need to do. Thank you alicem for prompting me with your questions. Should I just go the baking soda/epsom salt route, or should I invest in cichlid buffer and lake salts for that natural feel? I want them to breed. (Who doesn't) :wink:


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## shaunpitzer (May 8, 2008)

I will do some of that too and kickstart the cycling.

Well, after 9 hours of sitting around at a rock solid 9/9/4 ph/GH/KH I added the requisite amount of Stresscoat and aerated for about 30 minutes and the result was 7.5/9/3 for pH/GH/KH. Looks like aeration maybe liberated co2 from the carbonate hardness and the pH dropped like a stone. Good, now I know pretty much what I need to do. Thank you alicem for prompting me with your questions. Should I just go the baking soda/epsom salt route, or should I invest in cichlid buffer and lake salts for that natural feel? I want them to breed. (Who doesn't) :wink:


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## alicem (Jul 26, 2007)

shaunpitzer said:


> I will do some of that too and kickstart the cycling.
> 
> Well, after 9 hours of sitting around at a rock solid 9/9/4 ph/GH/KH I added the requisite amount of Stresscoat and aerated for about 30 minutes and the result was 7.5/9/3 for pH/GH/KH. Looks like aeration maybe liberated co2 from the carbonate hardness and the pH dropped like a stone. Good, now I know pretty much what I need to do.


Excellent. So nice to have answers to these curious things. :thumb: 


shaunpitzer said:


> Thank you alicem for prompting me with your questions.


You're very welcome. 


shaunpitzer said:


> Should I just go the baking soda/epsom salt route, or should I invest in cichlid buffer and lake salts for that natural feel? I want them to breed. (Who doesn't) :wink:


It's pretty easy to raise the pH.
May as well use inexpensive ingredients for this, that do the same thing as the expensive ones. Save your $$ for fish. :thumb: 
At the risk of repeating myself:
Baking soda will raise the KH which will raise and stabilize the pH. As I understand it, pH will level off at pH 8.3
Epsom salt will raise the GH and yours is 9, so that's not too bad.

If it were me, I'd experiment using a particular sized container (like 1 gallon) that you can easily convert to figure your inital tank volume and replacement water for partial water changes. 
Remember, your aquaium is 55g. When you add substrate, rocks and decorations, those total gallons are reduced.
You can make a rough guess, it's not an exact science, unless you want it to be. 
It'll be close enough to then get your baking soda and epsom salt addtions to work for you.

I believe the results of adding baking soda will be imediate. Be sure to use the bubbler.
In one gallon, for example, add 1/8 teaspoon baking soda and 1/8 teaspoon epsom salt. 
Bubble for an hour (just to be sure) and test.

Adjust these figures as you see fit, this is just an example.
Continue adding until you get the result you want.
Then I'd do it over, using the entire amount that you came up with, all at one time, to double check. 
(X baking soda / X epsom salt / 1 gal. water).

Keep records, like you always do. :thumb: 
Now you have your new assignment. 
Alicem


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## shaunpitzer (May 8, 2008)

Well, after experimenting with the hardness and pH, I find that the standard rift lake recipe in the library works exceptionally well for my water. Everything is set up with a few danios in it for cycling.

I was thinking about maybe adding some kind of rock dweller to the cyps, multies and cats. Any suggestions? Anything from Julidochromis ornatus, Julidochromis regani, or Julidochromis transcriptus? Are these guys too aggressive? I will have a decent sized rockpile and probably just get a pair.


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## alicem (Jul 26, 2007)

> I find that the standard rift lake recipe in the library works exceptionally well for my water


 :dancing: 
It wouldn't hurt to_ periodically _test the replacement water before using it, just to be sure the water company hasn't done anything drastic to it.


> Everything is set up with a few danios in it for cycling.


 opcorn: :fish: :fish:



> I was thinking about maybe adding some kind of rock dweller to the cyps, multies and cats. Any suggestions?


Maybe a pair of ornatus or transcriptus. I believe the regani will be too aggressive.
Chances are, you may not see them much, until feeding time, that is. :lol: 
They are pretty interesting to watch the way they hug the rocks. Julies remind me of lizzards or snakes. :wink: 
Others may have different suggestions about what to (or not to) add.
:thumb: 
Alicem


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