# Early Signs of bloat. what to do.



## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

Only 2 weekS old, and already problem in my new tank.

INTRODUCTION: Several Electric yellows overate, (not because I overfeed but because they are the fastest to catch food. ), and now they are having white stringy poo, with a swollen tummy, with a protruding anus.
Their appetite is still very good, and still behave normal (aggresive, not hiding, eating etc), but i'm worried about the white stringy poo. I starved the tank for 1.5 days and while the size of their bloat went down, they are still giving out white stringy poo.

MOST PROBABLE CAUSE: I think its the pH level. My ph level was down to 6.5 due to lack of buffering properties/materials in my tank.

WHAT I'VE DONE SO FAR: I raised the ph back to 7.5+ (over a time period of about 36 hours), and added Argonite sand to my substrate as a ph buffer. (was looking for crushed coral, but shop keeper said argonite sand is better)

(finally) NOW MY QUESTION: I hope I don't have to treat. Anyone thinks I should start treating? Also how well does argonite sand buffers pH?


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## eagl97 (Dec 26, 2006)

There's a bloat cure post down in the illness and health section it'll probably give you the best advice


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't think being the most aggressive feeders can cause bloat...all cichlids would have it then. :thumb:

Bloat has always been stress-related IME and for me it is usually fighting and chasing one victim more than anyone else for an extended period of time. Not sure if fluctuating pH can cause stress, but I would not change it any more until the fish recover from the bloat. Epsom salts will help with buffering and act as a mild laxative for the fish but increase it slowly so as not to further stress already stressed fish.

If they are still eating I would use the metronidazole cure and soak their pellets for a few seconds in water mixed with metronidazole and then throw the whole dose in the tank. Do a search for posts by cichlidaholic, she has a link in her signature that has the metronidazole cure. I have used it many times.

The poo, the swelling and the anus are all symptoms and I think once you have those it is not going away without medication.


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## loffy74 (Sep 28, 2008)

i would not treat yet, based off of the white poop only.
this is my opinion.
sometimes they are over fed or blocked up from being fed hard pellet type foods. or just stressed.

I have had this type of bloat, i believe its not the same as the common parasite type bloat.
treating for constipation is not the same as treating for Malawi bloat.
however they do share some of the same symptoms. and constipation can also
lead to Malawi bloat. I think with malawi bloat constipation , when the parasites start entering the walls of the intestine causing 
the intestine to swell shut. Malawi bloat can be caused by a irritation of the intestine, from slimy
brine shrimp or meaty foods ..to much protein. Mbuna are algea eaters, and any other types
of food .combined with stress or dirty tanks will cause Malawi bloat.

What are you feeding your fish?

look for any of these symptoms, following the white poop,
If they *stop eating* or start hiding, or dont react to you approaching the tank.
sometimes they turn a darker color as well, also look for *rapid breathing*.

then i would treat if you have any of these additional symptoms.


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

Thanks for the replies so far guys.

I read up about metro treatment because that is what I got at hand. Thx to a good fish buddy who lives 5 mins away.  These are metro tablets specially for fish.

So, basically I soaked up NLS pellets with full concentration metro(disolved into water until saturated), and fed the fish 6 hours ago. 
Out of 3 bloated, 2 of them started poo'ing, and i noticed they are brown, broken with white strand in the interval. But I guess its a good sign that they are actually defecating.

I decided not to treat the entire tank since they are still eating. Am I right on this?

I also raised the temperature to 79 F.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would not start the metro (even soaking the food) if you are not convinced this is bloat and are not prepared to complete the entire treatment. The fear is that unless you eradicate the organism, if you just weaken it, you may create a more resistant strain.

Maybe you want to try epsom salts or other laxative treatments first. I have never had any luck with those once the white thready poo shows up, my fish is usually dead in 24 hours after that.

I don't think raising temp is helpful (although I keep all my tanks at 78 degrees anyway). That works for ich because it speeds the organisms life cycle and that is not the goal here.

It's a very good sign that the poo is no longer white and thready.


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

Good and Bad news.

2 of the fish who started pooping are doing great. Swollen tummy is getting slightly smaller, and defecating consistently without white thread.

The 3rd, fattest, biggest, fastest eater CANNOT SWALLOW FOOD.
She picks up food in her mouth, and then just spit them out. I'm really worried for her now.

I'm treating the water with 750mg metro in my 65gallon tank.
Its only one fish but because I don't have the time to scoop her up (work and all), I'm dumping metro in the whole tank. I read that it does no harm to healthy fish.

I might try to scoop her up tonight. But hopefully I don't have to because of the stress I'll induce to all the other fishes. Any advice?


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## loffy74 (Sep 28, 2008)

Just monitor for improvement and watch your other fish for bad reaction or spreading bloat.
be prepared to do a water change or you can loose healthy fish to the meds also.

What are you feeding your fish?

can you take any pictures of the sick fish?


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

Can't take pictures now. But they look 100% NORMAL now.
I am feeding my fish NLS grow.
I isolated two fishes in the hosp tank, and doing metro treatment now. Both refusing food so I dissolved the tablet into the water according to recommended dosage of 250mg pill per 5 gallon.

Other fishes in the main tank are all eating, so I'm treating them with metro soaked NLS 2 small meals a day since 2 days ago. Most seem fine, except for one who is still giving white stringy poo. This lil male is still eating, but poo'ing white. 
Should I capture that one into hosp tank as well?

just to recap, the source of the problem is probably the low pH of about 6.5 around four days ago. Now its back up to 7.8~8.0.

Another new development is that I am observing white molds growing in my substrate. When I stir up my substrate, a white cloud of moldy stuff would float in the water, and stays afloat until the filter captures them. Is this normal for decaying feces or is this due to lack of water circulation?

The system i'm using is a 1500l/hr undergravel filter with fine play sand + 10% argonite sand. And a 400l/hr internal sponge filter which sprays the water down for oxygenating the tank.


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## loffy74 (Sep 28, 2008)

ok, I wouldnt use NLS grow. I believe the protein content is two high for Mbuna.
you should switch to NLS cichlid formula with 36% protein.

also, with undergravel filters. they are great for low cost filters.
But i learned the hard way. you will need to clean under the plates eventually.
the build up of all of the bad stuff will get stuck under the plate and lead to a toxic enviroment.

I had under gravel filter with power heads. They where good for like 10 months.
everything looks clean, but hidden under the plate is this pool of everything. Which lead
to a high nitrate/ nitrite levels.


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

well,... too late for that now. I've got it all set up with powerhead. 
I'll keep a close watch on it though.

Also, NLS grow seems to be what my buddy here use for his fry. And he has got like thousands of fry,... he did mention he never had bloat problems.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Even if they look well please complete the three days of treatment. Otherwise bloat may come back but this time resistant to clout treatment. Some cases need two lots of 3 days treatment with a days brake in between.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/malawi_bloat.php

Quote
"The metronidazole works better at elevated temperatures (e.g., 80Ã¯Â¿Â½F), but aeration should be increased because the O2 content of water decreases with higher temperatures. Elevating the temperature of the water can be beneficial also because it increases the fish's metabolism and heightens its immune response, while also hastening the life cycle of the parasite, thereby shortening the time required to cure the fish."

One of the active ingredients in clout is di-metronidozole I think.

You should stop feeding all the fish during the first 3 days of treatment I think.
Then feed only very lightly for the first two weeks after this.

I understand that for Mbuna NLS recommends NLS cichlid not NLS grow. Grow will not always cause problems and will I guess give faster growth but there might be some extra risk attached to this advantage for older fish.

It sounds like your substrate is not yet fully loaded with the bacteria that brake down the poop. (A different set to the ones that deal with ammonia etc) Keep vacumming your substrate to reduce the rubbish there with a gravel cleaner until the poop/white stuff goes. Normal UG filters do not work well with fine sand. The thing may be blocked up. You could try making it into a reverse flow UG which should work even with fine sand.

(this is your main problem I think the fish picking up anairobic bacteria from the rotting stuff on the bottom, solve that and I think things will start to go a lot better)

All the best James


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

I'm already on day 3 for metro treatment.
Like i mentioned, 2 still not eating. 1 is eating but having white stringy poo.
Others seem fine.
Metro administered orally and into the tank.

Well.... the fishes I got are still young. Probably 3~5 months of age. Sizing from 2.5cm to 5cm.

I guess you are right about bacteria not breaking up the poo... I'll keep on vacuuming. 
Maybe I'll turn the powerhead into reverse mode to push the poo out to be sucked in by the sponge filter, which can then be removed from the tank.

6 more hours of work before I can go home to see my fish.


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## loffy74 (Sep 28, 2008)

NLS grow should be used for fry only.

as for the Underground filter, I am not saying change anything.

you just might want to get under that plate about every 5 months..maybe not sure how often.

it just keeps building up.

You should remove all your fish of coarse, when you lift the plates.

I have read this same advise and dismissed it. 8 months later i lost almost all of
my fish because of two much nitrates , nitrites caused from build up from under the plates.

just sharing my expierence
but definate on the the NLS grow, just keep it for any future fry.
Dont use it for Juvi's , sub adults or adults.


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

Thanks for sharing your experience!
:thumb:

Will keep at the vacuuming and make the food change for now. Hope those fishes recover.


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

2 New development:

1) Bad news. Now I have 4 electric yellows NOT EATING. They are spitting food, and having white stringy poop. Oddly, they don't have a swollen abdomen. They are normal sized(slightly slightly concaved). 
I have been feeding my main tank with metro soaked pellets for last 3 days. while I have 2 of the 4 fishes in a hospital tank riding out the full metro treatment dissolved in water.

2) While taking the advice on thorough tank cleaning and gravel vacumming, I realize a white mold is growing in my substrate. When I disturb the gravel (fine sand), a thick white could would puff up, and in it will be countless little strands of white mold. They seem to hold the sand together in clumps too.

I'm getting a UV sterilizer to hopefully kill whatever is free floating in the water. But how do I get rid of the white mold? Is it normal in a 3 week old tank to have molds.

Also posted the white mold on Illness section, but nobody replied:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... p?t=209922


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## loffy74 (Sep 28, 2008)

Ok , i would suggest to treat the water.. not just the food at this point.

Metro the entire tank.

Reduce feedings. Especially with pellets.
I strongly suggest using a Cichlid *vegi *flake.

I would recommend not using the sand with a Underground filter. This is whats 
causing the mold.

I would switch to gravel with your underground filter.
I know the switch is a large task, but i dont think sand is helping the UG filter any.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Will you retest and post your readings for pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? I once asked about a white-beige growth in my tank surfaces and was told to test for nitrite since that growth only occurs in the presence of ammonia and nitrite. Sure enough, I was having a nitrite spike.


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

At work now. Will test and post.
I removed almost all the sand from my tank last night, leaving a thin (0.5cm) layer.
A new filter with UV light is on its way as I type.

Metro supply will be bought tonight and tank treatment should start tonight itself.

Sigh. The sand might be the problem. Its really odd because I have set up tanks using fine sand over the last 5~6 years, (complimented with a top filter) and it has worked wonderfully always. Maybe this time the sand is too fine, or got a fabric too dense it won't allow water to flow properly.


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## loffy74 (Sep 28, 2008)

I can almost guarentee there will high test results in the main categories. this is the
result of the Under ground filter failing.

*do a water change before you treat if still possible.* that might help get the amonia and
nitrates down.


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

I will do the full course of metro treatment starting with 80% water change.
Wish me luck.


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## loffy74 (Sep 28, 2008)

good luck :thumb:

bloat is no joke.

treating the whole tank , will stop the spread of it.
most of the time it saves the fish as well. but i have lost a few even with early diagnosis
and treatment.

the best treatment is prevention. weekly water changes, feed lightly and i recommend flake
food as well.

ever since i switched back to flake exclusively, i have no cases of bloat.
I believe bloat to be caused by both improper diet and poor water conditions combined.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You can still get bloat with perfect water conditions and perfect feeding. Earlier in fishkeeping history it was believed bloat was caused by diet, but that was when cheap foods included cheap ingredients as fillers. Now that high quality foods with high quality ingredients are readily available and in use by fishkeepers, prevailing theory is that the bloat organism is allowed to proliferate when your fish are stressed.

Demasoni (and others) can cause their own stress by constant chasing (aggression). Luckily when this type of stress is present and you learn how to recognize the symptoms you usually have time to remedy the situation before anyone becomes sick. Symptoms include nipped fins, missing scales, fish lurking at the surface or behind heaters or filter intakes in a vertical position.

My remedy is to remove the victim fish, some fishkeepers prefer to remove the aggressor. Also check your tank size and stocking and fix any problems with those.

Other things can cause stress besides aggression, as loffy mentions poor diet (it would have to be really poor...like 100% bloodworms for example) or toxic water.


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## loffy74 (Sep 28, 2008)

I agree with 99% of that, but feeding your Mbuna brine shrimp even one or two times has
caused bloat in my fish tanks. Like you said stress causes bloat. These fish thrive on food
consistency, based off of algea. anything else will cause stress.
Improper diet causes stress also. If Mbuna eat something the shouldnt , its not only a improper food type it also causes
"a upset tummy" which is stressful.* so i would recommend a consistent and boring diet of algea.* This is what they like, giving them treats is only going to upset their internal balance.

maybe chasing can cause bloat all by itself, i have never experienced that myself.
I have always taken action on the situation ,when that occurs.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Bloat is a catch all title for numerous problems I think and with more than one pathogen associated with it, it is rather hard to pin down the conditions that lead to it I think. But you can still get it with new fish even with perfect water and perfect feeding and low agression. But any or all of these out of kilter seem to add to the chances of it becoming a major problem.

To be honest I have seen bloat in tanks fed with veggie flake and in tanks fed with NLS and not sure iether contributes much to the likelyhood or severity.


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## loffy74 (Sep 28, 2008)

I think you are right, NLS is good. But i think switching back and forth can possibly irritate,
the stomachs.
Its possible also that the pellets are just easier to over feed, because they are more compact.


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

GOOD NEWS!!!
This morning, all fishes ate!!!
Followed thoroughly all the advices given, and the fishies seem to be recovering well.

Day 0: Bloated tummy. Tested pH and OMG WAS 6.5! 
Day 1: Got metro from a buddy, did 60% water change and started feeding metro soaked pellets. 
Day 2: White feces, still eating. continued Metro treatment via soaking in pellets. Heavy vacuuming of gravel + 60% water change.
Day 3: 2 fishes stopped eating. Caught them into hospital tank. Full metro treatment in hosp tank. Main tank fishes still continue to eat metro soaked pellets. Heavy vacuuming of gravel + 80% water change. Removed 50% of my aquarium sand.
Day 4: 4 fishes stopped eating (including 2 in hospital tank). Full metro treatment in main tank. Heavy vacuuming of gravel + 50% and 50% water change. 
Day 5: Morning fed the fish a little, and all fishes ate. Metro treatment to continue for 1~2 days i suppose.

*when I mention "Full Metro Treatment", I refer to the guidelines given by cichlidaholic on metro usage*

My water bill this month will be crazy. But i think the fishes are going to make it.
I suppose i'll have to continue metro treatment to finish the whole course.

Its odd that all sources I've read suggests that metro treatment takes about 4 days to take effect. In my case, it did exactly that as well.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I think it wonderful your fish seem to be doing so much better now.  
Yep I would highly recommend you complete any and all antibiotic treatment courses. 8)


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

I still notice white stringy poo even though the fishes are recovering. like really really fine white string. Is that expected to continue even after they started eating again?


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

White poo is I understand the gut lining that they expell to try and get rid of irritation. It could be they still have the pathogen (in reduced numbers) or it is a hang over from the irritation it caused. I would keep treating until this is gone and they are pooing normally. Even if this meens going into the second three day treatment after a day of rest.

I take it you are feeding lightly with ony Metro soaked food. A second bloom of the pathogen can be as deadly or more so than the first I think.

If the white poo continues much longer into the second treatment I would consider trying a different anti biotic.
Metro and clout resistance is known I think.

All the best James


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