# This turned up in a brood of M. Auratus



## peter-robbo

I keep mostly Rift lake cichlids. I removed a female auratus from a tank with a few different species as she had a mouthfull of eggs. She went into a small tank until she released her young. While the rest were normal auratus this guy stood out as being completely different. At first I believed it was a baby convict cichlid that had somehow got transfered by accident. Now it has grown a bit it is definatly not a convict. It is a little over an inch and is a robust little fish. The tank it came from had the following fish Auratus (pair), Orange-top blue zebra (male), tropheus Moori (bemba), tropheus moori (Ikola). While I believe it to be a hybrid and the zebra as most likely the father it does have a body shape more like the Tropheus Moori. I keep many other fish in different tanks and none resemble this one. Any ideas welcome

Peter


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## fishman76092

Its definitely a tropheus hybrid. Never seen that one before.


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## etcbrown

Wow, that might end up being a mean sucker!


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## Fogelhund

Wow, that's a first for me... a Tropheus x auratus cross.. yikes

Here is the bigger part of the problem. Which of the fish that "look" like an auratus have hybrid genetics as well?  You know what that means?


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## peter-robbo

Thanks for your imput guys. I really felt that the blue zebra would be the father due to the simple fact that it would be more closely related to the auratus. However the stripes on this fish are so better defined than those on the zebra and its body shape is so much like the tropheus. Its colouring is darker than the pictures due to the effects of the camaras flash and its quite an attractive fish. If this cross-breeding is possible then I have concerns about advice I've been given about keeping different species of tropheus together ie: red moori (kasanga's etc) won't breed with black moori (ikola,pemba etc) which would be a much shorter genetic leap. Still interested to hear your thoughts

Thanks

Peter


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## Paul M

Don't know any thing about those fish. 
That is a nice looking fish.


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## Number6

peter-robbo said:


> If this cross-breeding is possible then I have concerns about advice I've been given about keeping different species of tropheus together ie: red moori (kasanga's etc) won't breed with black moori (ikola,pemba etc) which would be a much shorter genetic leap. Still interested to hear your thoughts
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Peter


 I'd say your hunch is right on the money... the reason that some species of Tropheus can be housed together is only because they generally resist crossing and not because they can't or won't at all. For all we know the Tropheus just got a little excited and it didn't even take the female giving him the time of day!


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## wmayes

IF this does end up being a tropheusXauratus you have to keep this topic updated with pics so we can see the result.


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## ziyaadb

i cant see the pics but im sure they look great


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## cichlidaholic

I'm just trying to wrap my mind around the Tropheus that had the nerve to take on the male auratus to do the deed... 

I'm shocked, but I agree...Definitely a Tropheus/auratus mix, as are all the fry from this group.

I'd have to keep this one long enough to see how he turns out! Curiosity...

Kim


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## wmayes

It looks kindof like an oddly shaped Crabro...


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## Keeferd

I don't think they are all tropheus/auratus mix. I find it hard to imagine that those 2 completely different fish mated. My prediction is the 2 auratus were "getting it on" and the tropheus saw the 2 mating and decided he wanted some action, so he squirted a little something in the mix while the 2 were mating and one of his sperm happened to fertalize 1 of the females eggs. that's only a guess. Either way awesome rare fish.


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## noki

Keeferd said:


> I don't think they are all tropheus/auratus mix. I find it hard to imagine that those 2 completely different fish mated. My prediction is the 2 auratus were "getting it on" and the tropheus saw the 2 mating and decided he wanted some action, so he squirted a little something in the mix while the 2 were mating and one of his sperm happened to fertalize 1 of the females eggs. that's only a guess. Either way awesome rare fish.


That hypothesis may be possible, in that some mouthbrooder males are known to try to sneak in and try to fertilize an egg while the couple are busy. But doesnt this raise the question that every once in a while there could be one or two hybrids in a "pure" batch of fry? Does this actually happen much?

But... is there any known hybrids of Tropheus and Malawi cichlids ever known? They are all Haplochromines, but is it possible?

There is actually a Malawi Tropheops that has a similar pattern to that fish, to add the weirdness...


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## peter-robbo

The fish shown was the only abnormal one in a batch of about 15-20 normal auratus. I feel that if it was a tropheus that fathered it, then it was as previously mentioned an opportunistic sneaky little tropheus that joined the auratus mating session. The tropheus in the tank were 15 Ikola and 20 bemba about 2-3".
Its behaviour is more active than the auratus , more like the hyperactive tropheus. Does anyone know if there is any previous crossbreeding of an mbuna and a tropheus. 
I am looking forward to seeing this fish grow and will post pictures when it does.
Thanks for your input guys

Peter


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## straitjacketstar

It's hard to believe but...well...the hobby's full of surprises.
Still, I'm skeptical, and I wonder if some kind of Petrochromis sp. didn't get mixed in with the auratus. A little far-fetched but not impossible I don't think.
If it does turn out to be a Tropheus x auratus then....wow. lol
I think we'll all want to keep tabs on the little guy. It's cute!


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## cichlidaholic

What else is in that tank besides two Tropheus colonies and the auratus?

And just out of curiosity, what size tank is it???

Kim


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## Longstocking

WOW.... cross lake breeding !    Not good ! (Not that you did this on purpose either)


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## peter-robbo

Hi Kim,
there was a lone male orange-top blue zebra, which I felt would be the logical choice to be the father. However the shape of the little fish in question is deeper in body and the behaviour more tropheus-like, wishful thinking perhaps. The tank was a 50 gal.

Peter


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## eklikewhoa

This is some interesting stuff!

Probably not gonna sit well with all those old school tropheus keepers since they don't subject to change well......but this is some news breaking stuff! I had a Male tropheus hold a small clutch of eggs and the old timers won't accept that it happened and now this....man someone's gonna ****e a brick.


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## noddy

I'm not sure who advised you to keep ikola and bemba in the same tank but, of all the combinations, that would be the worst I could imagine (as far as hybrids go). As far as the little guy goes, well that's just weird.


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## Darkside

Lol now this right here is a good example of hybrid vigor!


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## peter-robbo

noddy said:


> I'm not sure who advised you to keep ikola and bemba in the same tank but, of all the combinations, that would be the worst I could imagine (as far as hybrids go). As far as the little guy goes, well that's just weird.


It was a temporary situation while they were youngsters, I realize they are both "black" tropheus and at higher risk of crossbreeding, now are in seperate 50 gal tanks.

Peter


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## Dave

Interesting, but I am skeptical. Would you mind listing all the fish in that tank at the time of the spawn, and gender? I am wondering if the tropheus like appearance is just a fluke.


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## peter-robbo

Dave said:


> Interesting, but I am skeptical. Would you mind listing all the fish in that tank at the time of the spawn, and gender? I am wondering if the tropheus like appearance is just a fluke.


Hi Dave, I have already done so a few times, check out the posts

Peter


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## zenobium

From my understanding of the phylogenetic relationships of rift lake cichlids, this really isn't that bizarre of a circumstance. The similar breeding and feeding habits of mbuna and tropheus is a strong indication that they probably share a fairly recent ancestor. In fact, the real problem that comes with analyzing the genetic relationships connecting Rift Lake cichlid groups is that they are ALL so closely related that genetic analysis is often inconclusive. What separates most of these species is not genetic incompatibility, but rather behavior mechanisms and physical barriers that have isolated their gene pools in the wild. In the aquarium, these factors often break down and this is the result.

Ok, of my soapbox for now. You have a really interesting fish there, I absolutely believe the proposed hybrid is possible, even if behaviorally uncommon.

-Zen


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## eklikewhoa

Any update on the little guy?


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## ejhart

Defiantly an update would be great. I would also like to chime in that I've actually visually observed my Fuelleborni male sneaking in above a couple of my hongi while spawning. He'd swim above and sprinkle a little of his love on them. I've also later found a few hongi x Fuelleborni fry in a brood of otherwise perfect hongi. Just saying it does happen, glass cages tend to do strange things to fish. Needless to say my Fuelleborni and hongi are no longer in the same tank. :roll:


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## gage

looks like a tropheus hybrid to me, very cute lil fish indeed LOL


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## MFielding

I am anxiously awaiting an update on this fish. Very interesting.


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## myselfdotcom

any updates?


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## CichInTheMind

looks very much like Paralabidochromis sp. 'Rock Kribensis' Uganda...


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## gazella

How is this guy doing..?


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