# Blue Dempsey x Blue Gene Dempsey Pair w/ Fry



## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

As some of you may knowâ€¦ Iâ€™ve been in attempts to breed Blue Dempseys for quite some time. Iâ€™m being extra anal to grow out groups of Blues to get my breedersâ€¦ I have been very selective as to what standard JDâ€™s I spawn to make Blue Genesâ€¦ Iâ€™ve been very careful when selecting the Blue Genes I will use to spawnâ€¦ Iâ€™m being as cautious as possible to avoid inbreeding and am working with as many â€˜linesâ€™ as possibleâ€¦

So after two years of all of this...

I finally have a pair that will produce hardy Blues!!!

I have spawned Blue x Blue in the pastâ€¦ which did produce baby Bluesâ€¦ but they didnâ€™t survive long (10 days). Iâ€™m very excited to have finally put my first pair togetherâ€¦

Yea me!

...and of course pictures...

Both Parents & Fry









Ormed #2 line (aka Hollywood) male









Rapps male x My Best Female = BG mother w/ Fry









Their tank (Blue male is at the top left of the overflow)









A lucky close up of the Blue male


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## Nighthawk (Mar 13, 2003)

Congratulations Toby!!!!

I'm hoping you'll save me a few....please.


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## Bluekiller82 (Nov 16, 2006)

Good Job Toby, you have an great looking Male Dempsey, I wish mine looked like him!!


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## Big Vine (Feb 26, 2007)

Wow, this is exciting stuff---congrats! :dancing: 
BV


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## xXGrEeNxTeRrOrXx (Jan 25, 2006)

Excellent work. And kudos to you for the attempts to make the lines strong. Exactly what this 'morph' needs. Strong lines, not inbreeding.

AWESOME!


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## renegade545 (Jul 4, 2008)

Looks like your hard work and patience has paid off. Congrats. :thumb:


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

renegade545 said:


> Looks like your hard work and patience has paid off. Congrats. :thumb:


Not really... now I have to learn how to keep the fry alive.. 

Thanks a lot guys. It's been a long rocky road getting this far but I've enjoyed the hobby more since I've started working with Blue Dempseys than I have before...


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## Bluekiller82 (Nov 16, 2006)

If you get these to sellable size let me know Id be interested.


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## stuckinthemiddle (Feb 26, 2008)

Is this blue gene naturally occurring in the wild or a "man made"? these are going for $35 at my LFS...too rich for my blood for a 1.5 inch juvie

Good looking fish!


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

stuckinthemiddle said:


> Is this blue gene naturally occurring in the wild or a "man made"?


The story is that a man received a wild caught pair of normal looking Dempseys... and that pair produced a small percentage of Blue Dempseys in each spawn... These babies were kept alive and from them we now have our Blue Dempseys...

Some people do not trust this story and assume they are hybrids...

A fair amount of scientific research has been done and no trace of hybridization could be found... yet not all possibilities were tested (as the possibilities are nearly unlimited and the testing gets costly)...

So the bulk of the evidence shows that most likely these fish are a "natural occurring color morph" comparable to albinism (and is genetically passed the same way)...

It is true that to date no one has ever spotted (or caught) a Blue Dempsey in the wild... it is just as true that the morph could exist in the wild for decades by normal looking fish with the recessive gene breeding together and further producing more normal looking fish with the recessive gene...

But anyway... there are several threads with elaborations of this concept as well as many other peoples positions. Use the site's search feature for Blue Dempsey or EBJD and you'll find several threads on the topic...

They are a bit costlyâ€¦ which is because breeding them is such an involved process. We must first create â€œBlue Geneâ€


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## AU Chief (Jun 20, 2007)

I definitely want int on some of these fry. That's one of the best looking blues I've ever seen!


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Itâ€™s easy to get a good looking little oneâ€¦ but to keep a good looking one to 9+â€


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## swamptrout (Jul 2, 2007)

Those fish look sensational!

I am a bit confused :-? how do you know a blue gene fish is what it is??

do both parents need to be Blue Gene or only one of the parents??

blue gene dempseys are the normal color aren't they?


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Blue Gene Dempseys look exactly like Standard Dempseys...

To make Blue Dempseys:

Blue x Blue = 100% Blue... to date Blue x Blue fry all die and have a high % of deformities...
Blue x Blue Gene = 50% Blue / 50% Blue Gene...
Blue Gene x Blue Gene = 25% Blue / 50% Blue Gene / 25% Standard...

The way I know my Blue Genes are Blue Genes is because I made them 

The only way to know you have Blue genes is to make your own 

Anytime you buy or trade for them you are gambling on the honesty of the seller. When I first started this process 2 years ago I tried to buy some Blue genes. I couldn't blame anyone for doing the same. But at this point I'm glad I did it the long way as not only do I have Blue Genes, but I am very confident in the quality of Blue Genes I have.

I would suspect that the Blue Genes that we see on for sale on sites like Aquabid are the lower quality Blue Genes that people felt were unsuitable for their breeding projects... and of course there is the risk of buying Standard Dempseys from a dishonest seller...


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## swamptrout (Jul 2, 2007)

Toby,
How did you make Blue Genes??

Reason i ask is over here in Aus i bought some blues from a lady who has bred them herself, i asked her where she got the parents and she said that she purchased 2 blue genes from her LFS - to be honest i asked her how did they know and she said she didn't know that either but she just took their word for it. is their like a test they could have done?

In another tank she had normal colour juvies which she had separated. I asked what they were and she said they were 25% normals and 50% blue genes but because she couldn't tell the difference she couldn't sell them as either or.


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## swamptrout (Jul 2, 2007)

sorry toby, one last question.

what is the outcome of 
normal x blue = ?
normal x blue gene = ?


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## Yankeejack (Dec 29, 2007)

Toby_H said:


> I would suspect that the Blue Genes that we see on for sale on sites like Aquabid are the lower quality Blue Genes that people felt were unsuitable for their breeding projects...


....from a person with an active auction on Aquabid....I'll strongly disagree with this statement.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

The only way (I know of) to â€œtestâ€


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## swamptrout (Jul 2, 2007)

what are your (& USA) rates for the blue fry?? over here in Australia the lfs are selling them for $150-$250 a juvie and there are only 4 places at that.

i paid my friend $50 each which is still expensive but considering the rarity in Aus and the LFS prices i think i got a bargain.

I also hear that majority of blues turn out male ?!?


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Until recently females were almost unheard ofâ€¦

In the last year or so a higher number of females have been noticedâ€¦ I suspect the # of females being born is the same, but the percentage of females surviving past the fry stage is increasingâ€¦ but thatâ€™s just my speculationâ€¦

You can watch Aquabid to see the common internet ratesâ€¦ LFS rates vary greatly depending on the areaâ€¦ but $50~100 US Dollars for poorly colored weak specimen @ 2â€


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## stuckinthemiddle (Feb 26, 2008)

There are some at my LFS, but they didnt look anything like JDs and were severely deformed. I didnt even know what they were until I asked. There eyes were all glazed over and their fins very very deformed. I didnt know if that was normal or not when they were juvies. They are 3 inches and going for $35.

why do you think that the EBJDs grow slower and are not as hardy as regular jacks? Could it be something like a birth defect or the equivilant of "downs syndrome". I know this is a silly comparison, but the only one I can think of.


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## swamptrout (Jul 2, 2007)

you know what stuckinthemiddle, i have always wondered if fish and dogs/cats for that matter could have downs syndrome, cerebral palsy and those other nasty birth defects.

so i guess it isn't really that silly a comparison.


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## terd ferguson (Jul 31, 2007)

Toby_H said:


> The only way (I know of) to â€œtestâ€


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Kevin (Terd Ferguson), your female has been passed around my fishroom like aâ€¦ I meanâ€¦ Iâ€™ve taken full advantage of herâ€¦ much appreciatedâ€¦



stuckinthemiddle said:


> why do you think that the EBJDs grow slower and are not as hardy as regular jacks? Could it be something like a birth defect or the equivalent of "downs syndrome". I know this is a silly comparison, but the only one I can think of.


The single original source of Blue Dempseys was a single pair of fishâ€¦ Therefore to keep the morph alive they were forced to inbred these fishâ€¦ and since no other sources have ever been found all successive generations have been excessively inbred.

Also we can see that breeders were often chosen for qualities other than being a strong healthy fish (such as long fins, etc). Seeing that we started with such a limited gene pool and then used breeders that were less than the strongest of the broodâ€¦ well we sort of screwed ourselvesâ€¦

Today there are a respectable number of people putting considerable effort into out crossing Blue Dempseys with a wide variety of top quality Standard Dempseys. Many of us believe that avoiding inbreeding to every degree possible and using only the top quality fish as breeders, there is a strong chance we can make a significant improvement in this morph.

If you know anyone bringing in Wild Caught Dempseys that can verify their WC statusâ€¦ let me know


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