# Growing out Discus,.....up-dated regulary!



## Dutch Dude

Hi there,

When I was a kid, back in the early 80's my dad had a small 50 gallon tank with 3 wild Discus. Since then I was fascinated abouth this gentle and beautiful mild mannered cichlid. Dough they have a reputation of being delicate and dificult. So for a looooong time I didn't considered my selves experienced enough to maintain a Discus tank. I was also woried if I could keep up the extra care Discus need.

Exactly a year ago I bought my first group of Red Turquoise Discus from worlds famous breeder Stendker. I had talked a lot with fishy friend Larry Waybright (Apistomaster). Larry keeps and breeds Discus for over 40 years so if someone could provide me with useful reliable info it was Larry. He taught me what Discus need and took away the last doubts I had. Larry was very helpful and provided tons of info. I looked up extra info and pics along with experiences on the Internet and some dedicated Discus forums, looked around, contacted some people and finally bought a group of Discus. Everything went rather smoothly and right now the fish are all healthy and have grown to adults. They still can grow for abouth 8 months but already reached normal adult size.

This weekend I receive a new group of young Discus for my second Discus tank. I will take you along my journey to grow-out this new batch of young discus and I hope it will inspire you and provide you useful information on one of the most beautiful and admired cichlids. I start off with the grow-out tank and some basic knowledge on maintaining Discus. I will regularly up-date and share my experiences supported by pics of the fish and tank (set-up).


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## DiscusQueen

Hi Ruurd... Can't wait to start seeing the pics opcorn: opcorn: Is it this weekend yet??? How about now?? Maybe now??? :lol: :lol: :lol: I know you will have beautiful discus and get much enjoyment from them.. Good luck and keep posting... Sue


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## edburress

Hey Ruurd,

Great idea. I'm looking forward to the updates :thumb:

Ed


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## KoalaBear

Good luck with your new Discus! The are amazing and gorgeous fish... Can't wait to see pictures of your new guys!


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## DeadFishFloating

Hey Ruurd, good luck mate, and I'll be following with interest.

While we're waiting, pics of your adult Discus and thier tank wouldn't hurt.


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## Dutch Dude

Sue, Ed, Peter and Koalabear,...thanks for the support and I hope you will enjoy this post.

Sue,...no no no,...you first with pics of the fish we are waiting for to long on that :wink: 

Ed,....I hope that people find this post informative and inspiring.

Koala bear,....thanks,....Discus are indeed very beautiful fish and are fun to watch and have great personalities.

Peter,...thanks. I will up-date regular and post pics of the adults later on. At first some info and pics of the grow out tank. :wink:

Chapter one,......the tank and filtration.

The grow out tank is a 50 gallon European standard tank. The dimensions are 40 long, 20 high and 16 wide. My previous batch were in the same tank with a 1/4 inch sand layer and some driftwood. This time I decided to go bare bottom (BB tank). The reason is simple,...a bare bottom tank is much easier to clean and all the dirt particles are easy to detect. On the left you can see the in-tank pump driven sponge filter. It is a DIY filter and realy easy to build, inexpensive and does have a long cycle time inbetween cleanings (at least 3 months in normal conditions). Unfortunately some moist build up between the background and glass what gives the darker blue irregularities on the background. Not realy an issue becouse it is only a grow out tank and not a show tank.










Below a closer pic on the filter. On the left you can see the intake (to the right of the heater). On the right you can see the clean chamber with the small micro pump. The water will flow from left to right trough the foam. The filter contains 3 foam parts of 6 inch by 2 inch by 20 inch creating a large in-take surface and large volume of 3 gallon. Because of the large surface the flow in the filter will be low creating more time for bacteria to do their job. The pump is a micro pump doing 180 GPH. If I like I can add a large pump or a second pump later on when the fish are larger and produce lots of waste.










The output of the pump is pointed in an angle lengthwise to the background to reduce the flow. Discus don't like a lot of flow and pointing it to the background or add a spray barr defuses the output and reduces the flow in the tank while the GPH on the filter are still high. In addition I added an air pump to break the water surface which will increase oxygen levels.

So the grow-out tank and filter is realy basic and easy to set up. Soon I will up-date on the parameters and cycle of the tank.


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## Dutch Dude

Finaly the up-date I promised. I did a 90% water change on Thursday evening and added some buffer to meet the parameters from the Stendker hatchery. My tapwater is moderate with PH=8, GH=9-10 and KH=3-4. Stendker uses a neutral PH and hard water. So I added a RO buffer and buffered up to GH=12. Unfortunately the PH went up to 8 1/2 but short term this isn't a real issue. I keep the temps at 28,5C = 83F. By doing 50% water changes for the first day I will decrease the GH to 10 1/2. Next day (Monday) I start off with the large 80% water changes every day and the fish will be swimming in my local tapwater from that day on.

As some of you might know I already planed on a second Discus tank for over 6 months. A year ago I bought my first batch of 3 1/2 inch Red Turquase (RT) discus from lfs. They weren't poor qualety but did had a set back becouse they were for to long (2 months) in the shop with only 2 feeds a day and only 2 times a week a 50% water changes in crowded tanks (chiane store Pets Place). This gave the fish a set back but I managed to compensate by doing all the effort I can. For my second batch I wanted fresh fish straight from the Stendker hatchery so I tried to arrange something with my lfs. My plan was to order fish and pick them up in the original bags as soon as they arrive. The lfs offered me their current stunted stock and didn't wanted to order. I was already in contact with Discus Hans (Stendker USA) and he helped me out to get in contact with Stendker Germany. I have had some real nice and friendly e-mail contact with Bastian Wald. He is a real nice guy and provided me with info and was willing to make an arrangement. At March 28 and 29 Stendker would show off some of their fish at the Vivarium 2009 show (2nd aquarium and terrarium show) in the city of Utrecht (Holland). They would bring along some breeding couples and were willing to take some youngsters with them and among them Santarem and Alenquer. This was a great oportunety to receive fish straight from the hatchery without interference of the trade. Some e-mails back and forth between Hans and me and Bastian and me and yesterday finally the big day. I was realy exited and felt like a small kid again, haha! Any way,...the show was great and I have seen nice fish, plants, lots of decoration, tanks and so on. Some for show and promotion and some to be sold. One booth was diferent to all of them,....the Stendker booth. They showed off some realy nice shaped and great colored high qualety fish! I was realy impressed! Some suppliers brought also discus but they looked like poor qualety compared to the magnificent Stendker fish! There were also some jumbo discus among them at a size around 7 inch. Very impressive! I talked with Bastian and Hans and both are great guy's and very kind! I have had a good laugh with Hans and he is always joking, haha! I wanted to go for Alenquer or Santarem becouse I prefer discus with wild looks abouve the man made colors. They brought along 4 inch Santarem and 2 1/2 inch Alenquer. Both looked realy good but imo the Santarem didn't had as many blue as I would have liked. So I went on with the small Alenquers. After some talking, Hans caught them and I brought my fish home. Unfortunately I didn't joined Hans his lecture / talk but I defenately will next year! I promis that Hans so you don't need to slap me again, haha!

After 2 1/2 hour drive I put the bags in my tank for 1/2 hour so the temps could adjust. After that I emptied the bags in a large net and put them straight into the tank and followed Hans his advise (except for throwing them over my shoulder into the tank like Hans was joking) :lol: I dropped in a small amounth of live bloodworms and after 5 hours in the tank they already were eating! =D> So far everything went smooth and I had a very nice day, visiting the show, talking with Hans and Bastian and bringing home 7 Stendker Alenquer discus! Ooh by the way,...I fond a realy nice bright colored Peckoltia L168 whitch are great tankmates for Discus (just like the small BN pleco's) and also took it home as clean up crew.

Soon I will add more info on feeding / foods, cleaning and of course pics of the fish. See you


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## DeadFishFloating

Very nice Ruurd. But what about some photos?

We have been getting some real nice German Import L168 lately here. They were the same price as some L168 sp. "tapajos" at a LFS here. I bought 5 of the of the Tapajos variant instead of the line bred German Imports. I like the idea of wild strains of line bred species.

except when it comes to A. agassizii double red or red gold :lol:


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## DiscusQueen

Hi... Congrats Ruurd =D> =D> =D> I'll bet you are so excited.. Do you ever leave from sitting in front of the tank :lol: :lol: :lol: .. maybe to eat?? or is that done in front of the tank also :lol: :lol: 
They sound like beautiful fish.. and the L 168 sounds like a good find also....
Hope all is going well with them and we will see pictures soon.. opcorn: opcorn: .. I know I know.. mine too.. soon I promise :fish: :fish: :fish: Sue


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## Dutch Dude

Sorry for the poor qualety pics but the bare bottom tank doesn't help and the fish are very active and when I come to close a bit skittish. This will change in time but they are new to the tank and need some time to get used to their surrounding and the guy who feeds them :wink: Those things floating around are live artemis by the way. Yeah I know,.....I spoil them to much with live bloodworms, artemis and daphnia.


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## DiscusQueen

Hi there... They are beautiful =D> =D> =D> and look very happy in their new home... Didn't anyone ever tell you you are supposed to spoil your "children".. :lol: :lol: :lol: That's the whole point of being a "parent" or even better yet I have learned, a "grandparent".. :lol: :lol: Seriously the very best of luck with them and keep those pics coming opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: .. Take care Sue


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## Dutch Dude

Peter,.....I could get a hold on 2 types of L168. One type wasn't as bright colored and were flattened and the last of the batch of very nice strong colored. I would have liked 2 of them but I took the last one unfortunately. I payed only $30 US and thats realy cheap compared to $55,- US I payed for the Peckoltia in my other Discus tank. Peckoltia are beautiful fish that tolerate the higher temps Discus needs. Definitely a good and very beautiful cleaning crew and I prefer fish like that abouve cory's for example. I think Germany is one of the countries with a permit to export to Australia. So over there the fish are labeled as German import but they might be from the same breeder as my fish. Mine is a specie from Brazil so they might be the Tapajos variety you mentioned. I looked on planet catfish and they list two species labeled as L168. I will take a pic of him later on but probably this will be quit a task with all the shimmering and mirror effects in a bare bottom tank.

Sue,....your the Discus Queen,....what do you think? Aren't they cute and handsome? They have a very nice shape and tiny eyes even for their size. It isn't good visible on the pics but some already seem to have a pinkish shine on them. I'm sure 2 are going to be strong red colored and already are darker as the others. They do have appetite but are a bit picky. I spoil them with live foods but right now feeding is more important as what to feed. I feed bloodworms, daphnia and artemis right now and this morning they received their first Stendker beef heart mix. They like the beefheart but preferred hunting down moving targets (live foods), haha! When they are settled a bit more I reduce the quantity on live foods and boost up the heavy beefheart feedings. First I give them some time to get used to their new home and water parameters. Hunting live foods helps them explore the tank.



> I'll bet you are so excited.. Do you ever leave from sitting in front of the tank .. maybe to eat?? or is that done in front of the tank also


 :lol: :lol: :lol: how did you know??? The tank is in a spare bedroom on the first floor so walked up and down the stairs all day,....watching the fish, drooling on the carpet, observing their behaviour, looking at the first signs of their paterns and coloration, seeing them feed and quarel,......I realy have to force my selves to go down stairs, eat and drink, haha! Even the cats are complaining! I planed this fish for over 6 months and I feel like a little kid so happy now I finally got them,.....and very nice qualety as well.


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## Dutch Dude

Thank you very much Sue!!! I realy apreciate your comment and especially because you are much more experienced to Discus as I am.

I do spoil them as you could read and see. This afternoon the black (stress) bars disappeared and they show their happy mood colors (bright light colors without bars or bars slightly noticeable). The blue and red in their fins became stronger. Some have small scrapes of catching but in a couple of day's those will be gone.


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## HONDO

big congratulations! they are very beautiful and lucky to be in your care.
i cant wait to watch them grow!


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## apistomaster

Hi Ruurd,
I think the new Alenquer Discus look great. They already have a nice warm red-brown color and I expect they will develop much more blue striations than the Santarem vairety you were considering.
I'm looking forward to buying a group of the Stendker Alenquers, too.
As you know, I already have pairs of wild Nhamunda Blue Discus which are very similar to what the fish business calls "Alenquer"









The flattened "Peckoltia" sounds more like L052, Dekeyseria brachyura. L168 is the same fish despite different L-Numbers. They are always reasonably priced.
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/sp ... ies_id=706
They are a commonly imported species which has been breed many times.
L169 is a tiger striped Peckoltia sp. which is both imported and bred regularly. Their young are particularly colorful, almost orange-brown with dark brown stripes. They become plainer with age but remain attractive. They are one of the best choices as an "entry level species" for a fancy small pleco breeding project for those who want to try something more challenging than breeding common Ancistrus cf cirrhosus, Bushy Nose Plecos.
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/sp ... ies_id=158
One of some adults I had; their correct name is Peckoltia vittata


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## DeadFishFloating

Holy [email protected] I can't believe I farked up and mislabled my own L numbers.


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## Dutch Dude

Hey Larry,....thanks for posting and sharing the pics of you beautiful gorgeous wild Nhamunda Blue! I don't think the trade would label them as alenquer becouse the price of Nhamunda's is much higher. But we agrea that they have a lot in common with wild alenquers if it comes to the coloration. The Peckoltia I bought this weekend on the Vivarium show in Utrecht Holland looks a lot like the Peckoltia vittata and might be the same thing. It would not be the first time I bought a fish that was mis labeled. I'm not that good on catfish species becouse fish from some groups look all the same except for some tiny details. Any way,...it is a beautiful fish and realy a nice pic. I will add pics later on this week and also of the Peckoltia.

Larry,...when will you buy your new group of Stendker alenquers???

A short up-date on mine: Today they seem to get more appetite and have nice round bellies. Not stuffed but nice filled. They prefer the right corner of the tank just like the group of RT I have grown up in the very same tank. But,.....they spend more time on the left side as well. Sometimes they swim in the group from one end to the other. The colors gained a bit and blue seems te be more present. The overall body color also intensifies and some also have developed stronger red in their fins. They are realy doing well but still they are a bit picky on foods. I expect this to be temporarily and already see a great improvement.


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## Dutch Dude

Sorry for the poor qualety pics! I will make up later on with a pic of my RT discus OK?


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## Dutch Dude

Just some quick shots.


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## DiscusQueen

Hi Ruurd... Great pics :thumb: :thumb: All the discus are looking great =D> The new ones are really starting to colorup nicely.. Are they still being picky about their food choices?? Funny what you say about which side of the tank they all prefer... Mine also liked the right hand side the best.. :lol: :lol: I wonder if it is because we approach the tank more from the left or something is more shadowed on the right... Even the geos prefer to hang out on the right... of course for any of them if there is the "food source" approaching then that's the favorite side wherever it is :lol: :lol: 
Take care and keep posting and I will try and keep up with you :lol: :lol: Sue


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## Dutch Dude

Hi Sue,....thanks for your nice words! Imo non of the pics are realy good but hey,...can't have it all right?! The alenquer indeed start to color up. It is hard to grab it with a shot becouse they are very active and won't sit still for the camera. They also become nervous when the camera shows up and thats the reason for the stress bars. This morning non of the fish showed the bars, but only the eye barr. I try taking an other shot of the RT discus tank tonight so you can see their home. Their appetite is good now and still gaining. They are now tearing appart the small beefheart blocks and feed from it like it should be. The beefheart mix and the live foods are their favorits. I slowely will cut back on live foods and they have to get used to frozen as well. They do feed on frozen but not as much as the beefheart and live foods. When they are a bit larger in say 8 weeks or so I plan on to add discus pellets to their menu. Right now I want them to feed as much as posible on the heavy foods and I think they are a bit small for the pellets. Right now I feed 1 cube of Stendker beefheart mix in the morning and just before I take of to work I drop in a bunch of bloodworms so they will have food until late in the morning. Live bloodworms don't become bad and can live for day's in the tank. When I come home from work around 16:30 I drop in another cube of BH (beef heart). Around 18:15 an other cube of BH and around 20:00 some frozen bloodworms. Around 21:00 I do a large 80% water change, rinse out the first filter sponge (lots of small food parts in there) and feed some live foods like white mosquito larvae (same sort of food like bloodworms only white body and les nutrition), bloodworms, daphnia, artemis or if I'm out of live foods (only hapened once this week) a small amounth of frozen. When I have a day off and in the weekends I try to spread the feedings more and squeeze in another 1 or 2 feeds.

Hmmm,.....odd the fish prefer the right side of the tank! My previous group of RT did and you tell the same of yours. Maybe it has to do with flow. Is your filter output pointed from the left to the right? The RT discus prefer the left corner of the tank, my Guianacara prefer the best cave structure and the Bolivians the best small open spot inbetween plants. I agrea on the spot were the foods get in but in my situation I start feeding on the right corner becouse the fish were there.


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## blairo1

Great thread idea, very informative and useful. Beautiful fish of course, but then I would expect no less from fish in your care Ruurd.

I hope you are well and enjoying some fine weather my friend. Speak to you soon.


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## Dutch Dude

Thanks Blair for the nice words. I'm well my friend and I hope you and Cat are OK as well. The weather was great over here today and we reached a temp of 20C. So after a long and wet winter it is realy great. I even get burned by the sun :wink: So now I look like an Amano shrimp, red head, red arms and everything else is white 

I promised a tank show of the RT so here it is.


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## DiscusQueen

Hi Ruurd... Love the rt tank :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: .. Hope the new guys are still eating and doing good.. Take care Sue


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## dwarfpike

Wow Ruurd, your discus make that display tank look small!!


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## HONDO

Dutch Dude said:


> Thanks Blair for the nice words. I'm well my friend and I hope you and Cat are OK as well. The weather was great over here today and we reached a temp of 20C. So after a long and wet winter it is realy great. I even get burned by the sun :wink: So now I look like an Amano shrimp, red head, red arms and everything else is white
> 
> I promised a tank show of the RT so here it is.


wow, that is a truly beautiful tank.


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## Dutch Dude

Hi there,.....finally I found some time to make some pics and to do an up-date.

Sue,....the fish do great and have an increasing appetite. I plan on slowly reducing on the live foods and switch more to frozen. They are now used at the taste of bloodworms and artemis so I don't expect to much problems with that. I will throw in some live but only a few times a week in stead of every day.

Dwarfpike,....thanks for the compliment on the size of the fish. The tank is a standard European 300 liter tank (75 gallon) and the smallest fish (not to hot looking) is 5 1/2 inch and the largest 6 1/4 inch TL. They still can grow a bit but I don't expect much growth any more.

Hondo,....I'm glad you like the tank and thanks for the nice words.

So here an up-date,......I keep them now for 2 weeks. In the first week the fish eat normal and had nice filled bellies but in the past week their appetite increased and they feed as much as they can and have stuffed bellies for most of the time. I can see they have grown but it is hard to estimate how much. Their colors became a bit brighter and they start to defelop more of the blue striations especially around the head. Right now I feed 2 portions of Stendker Beefheart mix in the morning. When I come home from work until the lights go out (around 23:00) I feed 3 portions of beefheart and 1 live (or frozen). I feed live foods after I did a 85% water change abouth an hour before the lights go off. So thats 6 feeds every day of mostly Stendker Beefheart mix. It isn't availeble over there but I know Discus Hans and Stendker are working on it to make it availeble on the US market as well.

Here some pics.


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## DiscusQueen

Hi Ruurd... WOW... They are really starting to show a lot of blue.. Just goes to show that with your wonderful care they are progressing well. =D> =D> .. Congrats and keep up the good work :thumb: :thumb: ... and of course the photos :lol: :lol: Take care Sue


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## apistomaster

Hi Ruurd,
The new Alenquer look like they will color up just as you have hoped. They show quite a lot of blue striations considering their age/size. They will only get more colorful as they grow. They sure have nice form. So do your beautiful Red turquoise. They are some hefty looking Discus.
I know you didn't spare the food or skip making your water changes. It really paid off. It is strange or bad luck that they haven't paired because they may be all males.

Now that I sold my 10 Heckel Discus I still have to decide whether I want to put one of my wild pairs of Nhamunda Blues in the empty tank or allow my 8 Peruvian Scalare to live in it to allow them to reach their maximum size. They have just spawned for their first time despite being less than 11 months old but they can grow much larger in the large tank than they can in their 40 gal breeder tank, their present home. Decisions, decisions.

I should take the former Heckel tank down, zonk all the snails living in the substrate and restart it. It's been set up continuously for 5 years with Discus.

As soon as I have enough Leopard frog L134 Plecos ready to sell, we will take them and all our surplus, non-paired Stendker Brilliant Turquoise Discus to the big city and sell those to make room for a group of Stendker Alenquer. Probably in less than 3 months. You have a good head start on me.
Any fry my wild Nhamunda Blues produce are not likely to be as red as their parents but we can count on the Stendker Alenquer Discus to have consistently red-brown base body coloration.
I hope some of your Alenquer and those we buy also develop the red spotting some adult specimens show.


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## gtphale

What size tank is that show tank??? I'm debating over Discus or Angels and other community.


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## dwarfpike

*Apistomaster* sold the heckels?!?!?!?!?!  :-? :-?

I mean I think peruvian angels are the prettiest angel form IMO, but still no heckels!! Besides, I always hoped you would eventually spawn them. F1 heckels sound so yummy! :lol:


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## Dutch Dude

Hey Larry,

Thanks for your nice words bud! They indeed seem to defelop the colors and paterns I hoped for. Unfortunately not all colors are good visible on the pics and they change with moods of the fish but I'm sure 2 of them will be strong red colored and I have seen some with red little patches in the side,.....pointing towards the red dots we discussed by e-mail or point towards the red blotches wild types can display (especially wild fish like Curipera type). They did developed quit some blue markings and I'm sure there will be more fish defeloping that becouse I can see a blueish shine on their heads. It looks like there will be quit some farity in coloration among the group with is good and also occurs with real wild fish.

I indeed did my very best on the RT and tried to compensate for the poor care they received for 2 months in the lfs just before I bought them. One fish shows a deformaty in the dorsal fin probably couse by a riped fin. Except for that the fish is very healthy and good looking. One fish turns out to be smaler and was a poor eater from the start. His body shape isn't that great and a bit football shaped. The other 4 fish are nice shaped and reached a normal average size of a healthy well maintained discus. I indeed didn't spare foods (I tend to overfeed young fish) :wink: and I did all of my water changes like I should be. The RT was a great process of learning what discus need and I could not have accomplished this with success without your help Larry! They didn't paired up,...yet! Two fish seem to like each other and spend lots of time together in the right corner. Stendker discus seem to mature rather late so there is still a chance they become a pair. They do the dance with shaking fins and shivering body's and bending and bowing so they might pair up after all.

Dwarfpike,.....hahaha,...yeah I was shocked also when Larry told me he had plans for selling the Heckels. I thought Larry would change his mind and didn't sell the fish but he was serious. Larry found a very good home for them thats for sure.

gtphale,...that display tank is a 75 gallon European standard tank. Dimensions are 48x20x20. On the right along the back is an in tank filter similar in set up as in the grow-out tank. The back and the filter is covered by an DIY background made out of styrofoam and covered with a thixotropic epoxy paint (aquarium save). I can brush the background without destroying it and it only cost me abouth $80,- and a lot of spare time :wink: Are you new to the hobby or already experienced? What fish draws the most of your atention,...Angels or Discus?

I have to report I have seen an increasing number of small baby planaria. Planaria are flatworms that are harmless to fish and feed on detritus and food particles. I feed heavy with beefheart mix cousing small particles of food,.....a great food source for planaria! Considering planaria to multiply in this condition leaves only once conclusion,...I overfeed! Larry already told he feeds fish this size only 4 times a day and I feed 5 to 6 times. So I might want to reduce the number of feeds and the number of beefheart feeds. For example 3 beefheart feeds, 1 frozen and (maybe) 1 live. I do some investigation and talk to some people to find out how much and how often they feed compared to my feeding regime. Again,...planaria aren't harmful but do indicate there are to much spoiled foods in the tank despite the 85% daily water change. I'll keep you posted on this.


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## DeadFishFloating

dwarfpike said:


> *Apistomaster* sold the heckels?!?!?!?!?!  :-? :-?
> 
> I mean I think peruvian angels are the prettiest angel form IMO, but still no heckels!! Besides, I always hoped you would eventually spawn them. F1 heckels sound so yummy! :lol:


That was my very first thought when I read that.

Larry they were always my favourite fish. They looked awesome. Atleast tell us about your experience with them.

And Larry, we miss around here mate.

even if you are a cantancorous old [email protected] sometimes


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## gtphale

Had a tank for years, then got rid of them for about 5 years. About a year ago I got in to mbuna. I love the look of both fish, and can probably do more a community tank with the angels. But the Discus are just awesome looking. If I did a 55 it looks like I could do 5 discus but they look better in a highter tank. 75 would probably be perfect.


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## hey_wood1981

A standard 55 gallon and 75 gallon are the same height. The difference is in the width. A 55's width is 12" and the 75's is 18". If you want more height a standard 90 gallon will give you that. It's the same as the 75 just taller.


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## Dutch Dude

Gtphale,.....the volume of a 55 is good for 5 discus if you are willing to do 3 times a week a 50% wc and have it bare botom,....but,.....the dimensions of a standard 55 gallon US tanks is a bit of a PITA. Discus will have a hard time to turn around in it and it is just to tight. A 55 would be a nice tank to grow them out and move them to a larger tank when they reach a size of say 4 1/2 inch. A 75 is a nice size for a group of 6 discus. The dimensions are much better and the fish can turn around without any problem. Discus are known to be gentle but they still show cichlid behaviour with quarreling abouth ranking. There will be some chasing and for that they need some more space and 12 inch is just to tight for a adult fish of 6 inch. The only benefit of a 90 gallon is the extra volume allowing you to put 7 discus in it but thats abouth the limit.

Tomorrow I will put an up-date on here with pics of the Stendker booth, planaria and the amazing growth of the fish.


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## DiscusQueen

Ruurd... Isn't it tomorrow yet :lol: :lol: :lol: .. Can't wait for the pics. opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: . I finally figured out how to turn off the autoflash on my camera so I promise I will post in a few days.. sadly    still won't be able to match your photo skills or Ryan's or Ed's or Peters etc.. but I will keep trying.. :lol: Hopefully your planaria are staying hidden for awhile. They are not as photogenic as the discus :lol: :lol: .. take care Sue


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## Dutch Dude

:lol: Hi Sue :lol: I just have done the wc's for today and want to relax in front of the TV in abouth 20 minutes. I can't give away all the details yet but I was very surprised when I measured the youngsters when they swim curious to the front and beg for food! The pics are from a Dutch site and taken at the Dutch Vivarium show where I bought the fish directly from Stendker. I hope there aren't copyrights on the pics.

You will find it much easier to take pics without the flash. Biggest issue is moved pics but I find it much easier as with the flash. I'm convinced you will make much better pics as I do becouse I use a camera phone to make mine. Hahahaha,...the planaria are indeed not as photo genetic as the discus but at least they don't swim around and easier to follow around.


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## DeadFishFloating

> still won't be able to match your photo skills or Ryan's or Ed's or *Peters* etc..


I am the only Peter here aren't I?

Sue I'm pretty sure you're mixing me up with some one else with regards to my photographic skills. I rate right up there with a 6 year olds skillz. :lol:

*Dutch Dude*, mate it's Monday here in Oz, where are the photo's?


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## japes

DeadFishFloating said:


> still won't be able to match your photo skills or Ryan's or Ed's or *Peters* etc..
> 
> 
> 
> I am the only Peter here aren't I?
Click to expand...

I think* peathenster* may be a Peter.


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## DiscusQueen

Hi there... Yup... Sorry I know peanthenster as Peter.. forgot DFF you were a Peter also.. While I really like your tanks.. Peathenster/Peter is really coming out with some spectacular photos.. Guess I do the same thing with Japes and sometimes just call him Ryan.. Didn't mean to confuse... or maybe just want to keep everyone on their toes :lol: :lol: .. Take care Sue


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## DeadFishFloating

> While I really like your tanks


Hahaha...you haven't really been paying attention to my tanks then. They're very ordinary, and not even scapped, Just some pots with plants and drift wood.


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## DiscusQueen

DFF... I guess after having discus and doing some barebottom, sometimes I also like the look of a clean look in a tank as well as the planted ones... I liked the plants in the pots with the lemons swimming thru them even if it was a temporary situation HAHA.. Gheesh are you still upset that while I liked your lemons in your tanks,I took them out of mine :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .. Only kidding.. They went to a good home don't worry.. 
Ok I guess we have bantered back and forth for long enough to let Ruurd get some pics :lol: :lol: 
Sooooooo where are they opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: Take care Sue


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## Dutch Dude

Peter,.... :lol: Sue talked abouth my photo skills as well but I take blurry pics with a sony ericsson 3.2 MP camera phone, hahaha! Pssss,...don't tell everyone and lets keep it a secret.

Well one thing I have to admit Peter,....those people down undah are ahead by almost half a day! Good think is,....it is still Sunday over here so I don't have to work :wink:



> Ok I guess we have bantered back and forth for long enough to let Ruurd get some pics


 :lol: not so impatient Sue  First let me give an up-date.

In my previous up-date i told abouth the planaria. Planaria are harmless flatworms that feed on food particles and detritus. Still they can grow out to a bloom and even crawl over your fish causing them to jump around the tank. Well I would do the same if a large bug would crawl on my back :? An other issue is,...if the planaria increase in number the quantity on food for them is also increasing = to many uneaten foods or dust particles from the food. Those food particles make the water bad rather quickly. So I figured out it had to do with the number of BH (beefheart) feeds. I talked to some people who were more experienced on raising youngsters and asked how often they feed and what they feed. I got answers from 8 to 10 feeds a day to only 4 feeds a day. I'm somewhere inbetween with 6 feeds and this sounds like a good number to me. The people I talked to feed BH or some sort of home made fish mix (Eddie). Eddie (known as Bashead on SD) pointed me to wiping down the windows every day. Most of the times I already did wiping down the windows but this was a quickly and not to acurate. So the previous week I put more atention to it. By wiping down the windows I removed the planaria attached to the glass cousing them to float around the tank and easy to siphon during the water change. Also the proteins that attach to the class came of and be shiphoned out during the WC. Proteins are a good food source for planaria. The fish have an ever increasing appetite so les foods get spilled. The result is,......rapidly reducing number of planaria to a save and harmles number. For now I have the planaria in control  This would not been the case if I had used a sand substrate in the tank. Lots of the planaria and also food particles would be in and on the substrate and almost imposible to remove. So this is an other reason to grow up Discus in a bare bottom tank.

The fish,.....well they haven't changed much in coloration for the last week and only show slightly more details. Their appetite is increasing and this points to a increasing growth. So I became curious and measured them when they swim by to great me. I was amazed at first and measured a few extra times. Every time I ended up with the same number. They are now just over 3 inch! So they have grown over 1/2 inch in only 3 weeks! Amazing isn't it? According to the Stendker growth graph they should grow from 2 1/2 inch to 3 1/2 inch in a period of abouth 6 weeks. Mine are perfect on track while they have gone trough a harder time when they made the transfer from the Stendker hatchery to my tank with diferent parameters.

So far the up-date. I promised pics of the Stendker booth at the Dutch Vivarium show were I bought the fish from Discus Hans, Bastian Wald and Jorg Stendker. Unfortunately the pics have copy rights so I can't put them on here. In stead I add a link to the site containing the pics.

http://www.vivariumbeurs.nl/index.php?o ... 32&lang=nl

The 3th pic is a pic of the alenquers I bought and i think some red turquase. Pic 14 are a magnifisant pair of Stendker red snakeskins. I realy liked those fish and they were stunning! Pic 97 is of the Stendker booth.

So here some pics of the fish again taken this evening. Notice the red dots near the abdomen.


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## DiscusQueen

Hi Ruurd.. WOW that was really quite a show... I would definitely have had to leave my wallet at home or volunteer to clean floors :lol: :lol: :lol: . Love the painting of the fish that artist was doing...Looked like quite a demo on aquascaping as well!! I'm not too sure about the snakes but the Italian ices looked good and I'm sure the band was good also. Bet you had a great time.. And to top it off you got some wonderful fish. :drooling: .. How lucky you are   I think I would not have wanted to leave... Did you get your face painted... Are you in any of the photos??
Your fish are looking wonderful and that's is definitely a nice amount of growth... Good work =D> =D> ... I also have a few planaria starting to show themselves because of the amount of feedings I am giving so I have cut back the size of the feedings and now with no rams to worry about am feeding less at a time.. I do wcs every other day for awhile .. I will also by wiping down the tank like you are doing... never thought about that.. While fish are still juvies I think we all like to feed so they will grow faster and sometimes it's hard to measure how much is enough in a large tank with smaller fish :lol: :lol: .. That's why I like the nls pellets... They are very healthy foods and easily measured.. Hopefully the planaria will stay away from our tanks for awhile.. or at least stay hidden :lol: . Congrats again on the good work and your beautiful fish... Sue


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## DeadFishFloating

This is very hypocritical of me, especially considering that my plecos, or thier parents some where back along the line, were probably smuggled out of Brazil and then smuggled into Australia....

...but it's a little concerning that there were a number of protected Australian lizards (bearded and desert dragons) to be seen there. It's illegal to own them here without a licence, and it's illegal for them to be exported. I know they are caught and smuggled out.

Like I said very hypocritical of me.

Other wise, I'm insanely jealous that we do not have something like that down here.


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## apistomaster

Hi Everyone,

Yes, I, the apistomaster, sold my 10 Heckel Discus I raised from 3 inch juveniles bought 4 years ago. Say good bye to our friends.








If I cannot breed a fish then it is likely to get displaced. I have learned all I can about keeping Heckels in captivity but now I have come to the conclusion that they may need about 100 gallons per fish before they begin to feel at ease enough to become easier to breed in captivity.
I sold them to Ed, the administrator of the wild Angelfish forum, www.finarama.com, where I am also one of the global moderators. He is another expert aquarist who is working on another problem fish to breed, Altum Angelfish. We speak Discus on finarama, by the way. I have asked many of my fellow wild Discus breeders to join and they have. There is much in common between wild Angelfish and wild Discus keeping and breeding. I have some newly spawning pairs of Peruvian Scalares. Ruurd asked for as photo of them so here they are, as they appeared 4 months ago. I have eight of these. You can also see some of the 30 F1 L134 Leopard Frog Plecos I am keeping for future breeding stock.








The wild Angelfish is so superior in form than aquarium strain Silver Angels and a much brighter fish.
I will be replacing the Heckels with wild Red Spotted Green Discus this next Discus season so I will be working on breeding wild Nhamunda Blue Discus and the Greens. I know I can breed them but only a few people over the past 50 years have had a pure wild Heckel X Heckel breeding success. Many male Heckels are crossed with female wild Blues or Domestics but nothing good comes of that.

I am very pleased with how well your Alenquer's are looking, my friend.
They are right on track with the optimal growth rate curve for their age and no doubt will become very magnificent adults and hopefully you will get the breeding pair(s) your Red Turquoise deprived you of.


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## blue acara

Hi ruurd The fish are looking good, growing fast.
Larry sold the Heckels?!?! I also sold my Heckels last week after keeping them 17 months. Sad to see them go.


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## Dutch Dude

Sue,...it was a wonderful show and just the second addition. I wonder what it will be next year! I have seen lots of fish that I would have liked to take home,.....very nice rummy nose, some fancy pleco's, corydoras sterbai and all for abouth 2/3 of the normal lfs price! I want to bring the number of tanks down to 3 and 1 shrimp breeding tank so I just could not take them home but I admit that I had a hard time not to! Quick looking and shut my eyes and turn my head away! It was realy a family show! Lots of animals, food suppliers, decorations, workshops and talks of people like Discus Hans.

So you also have some planaria! The whipping down of the glass realy helps and makes quit a diference. Unfortunately you have an established tank with decorations and a sand substrate and this will makes it harder to remove the planaria. You could clean the wood every time with a brush and turn the sand over every water changes. I do this with the RT tank as well. First a vacuum of the substrate, crawl with the fingers in it and do an other vacuum. People like you and me tend to overfeed our youngsters to give them all the food they need. Unfortunately the drawback is that more foods get spilled so we have to compensate on cleaning. Hahaha,...no I didn't let my face paint and I'm on non of the pics. I was the one who dough out of sight every time they tried to make a pic 

Peter,....it might be hypocritical but you are right. If those animals are a protected specie they should not be sold. I'm not sure if those lizards are wild caught specimen or from a breeding project. To be honnest,...if those are wild lizards and protected I hardly can imagine someone offers them for sale on such an event. They would take large risks to get caught. So they might be domesticated after all.

Larry,...thanks for your comment. They are defenately on track of their optimum growth curve. I'm not to interested in pairs becouse my goal is a nice show tank with some beautiful fish and not to breed or make money. Dough if I have the oportunety I might give spawning a shot only for fun and gaining knowledge.

Blue Acara,...thanks for your nice comment. So you sold your Heckels as well?! Thats realy a coincidence? Why did you sold yours?


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## Discus-Hans

Hi Ruurd,

what you think of this???? 200 gallon, is going to be planted, just set it up 5 days ago :dancing:










still waiting for my plants but couldn't wait to trow the Discus in :fish:

Hans


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## Dutch Dude

Hey Hans,.....welcome to cichlid-forum! :thumb:

Thats quit a large tank with very nice discus! :drooling: I see some very nice strong red discus in the left corner along with fish with lots of blue paterns,....overall a very nice natural appearing group of adult Alenquers. :thumb:

You told me some time ago abouth your plans to set up a display tank. I was expecting a Dutch garden type of tank but it is so good to see you set up a very nice biotope tank with stunning Alenquers! :thumb: 
My opinion on the tank,....I like the root tangles especially those close to the background that spread sidewards against the background. Maybe the number of roots is a bit high but hard to judge without the plants and at this angle. What plants did you ordered and when will they be in? To be honnest there is one thing I don't like,.....the color of the lighting. It will bring out the colors of the fish nicely but in my opinion it is to artificially for such a nice natural biotope. I like the standard colors "warm white" and "cool white" better,....just my opinion. So will the Discus get tankmates? I know you also breed some BN pleco's,.....they would be a nice cleaning crew in there that also help you to keep the wood clean of algea.

Thanks for posting Hans and I would like your opinion on the development of my youngsters.

I will add new pics this weekend and will do a small up-date on their growth and development.


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## Dutch Dude

Hi there,

Finaly I found some time to do an up-date one here. I promised pics but didn't had the time to take some decent once so I just leave it to on. They were actively swimming from side to side and realy begging for food. I put my finger on the glass to make them curious and sit still for a short moment. Here they are.










Their growth is realy extreme and to much. In the 5 weeks I own the fish they have grown from 2 1/2 inch to 3 1/2 inch and some even slightly more and very close to 3 3/4 inch. Thats to much! Such a fast growth rate can couse to short gill plates and saddles. A saddle is an irregularity on the forehead mostly visible as a depression. Some of my fish already show small saddles so I cut back on food to get them to a normal growth. Right now I feed 3 times a day Stendker beefheart mix and 1 time a day artemis (and every once in a while bloodworms). Below a growth schedule provided by Discus Hans (Stendker). As you can see in the schedule my fish should have grown 1/2 to 1 inch in a period of 6 weeks. They have grown 1 and some slightly more in a period of 5 weeks.

The average growth of Stendker Discus is:

2 - 2 1/2" = 3 maanden
3 - 3 1/2" = 4 1/2 maand
4" = 6 maanden
5" = 9 maanden
6" = 18 maanden
7"+ = 2 jaar.

Except for the saddles the fish do very good. Still eat like pigs and shred the beefheart appart as soon as it touches the water. They are very greedy at feeding time. The colors haven't changed that much in the last 2 weeks but slowely the blue striations become more detailed and more present and some fish start to defelop a nice red shine.


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## Discus-Hans

Ruurd, they look good, here is a little movie of some bigger brothers & sisters of yours,

Hans


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## DeadFishFloating

Hey Ruurd,

Thier colours are starting to really come through and they look very nice. I am jealous mate. :thumb: More importantly than the colour, they are showing a real good body shape, very nice discs. I can not see any saddle on them.


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## Dutch Dude

Hans,....thanks for the nice words and sharing your vid. For some reason the vid doesn't work properly for me and not sure why it isn't. Do you happen to have the same vid on Youtube?

Peter,....good to hear you can't see the saddles and I admit,......Ã


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## DiscusQueen

Hi Ruurd... The fish are looking great. =D> =D> .. love the shapes and the colors.. I think you are going to have some really beautiful adults down the line... I agree with Peter(DFF) from the pics I really can't see any saddles either so I would not worry about it too much.. Love the way some are showing more blue and others more red.. They are just gonna be awesome :drooling: :drooling: .. Congrats and keep up the good work.... Sue


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## Dutch Dude

Hi Sue,....thanks for the nice words. Abouth 3 of them do have a saddle but I have talked to some experts and they all say it will fade for the largest part when the fish mature and start to fill out.

I have to make an correction on the sizes I mentioned. It is realy hard to measure moving fish that pass by close to the window. I did something I normally wouldn't do but I gently caught one of the largest fish by hand and kept it flat on my hand just abouve the water surface,...and measured him. My apologies for giving wrong size information.  It was already hard to belive the fish have grown 1 inch or slightly more in just 5 weeks. Right now I have the real size of the fish and this one turned out to be 10cm total length exactly,...thats 4 inch!!!   So they have grown 1 1/2 inch in just 5 1/2 weeks!!! :drooling:


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## Dutch Dude

Time for a short up-date again. The fish do great! I still have the saddle issue on 3 of them and now I know the correct name for it,....beaky. The reason is the fast growing of the fish. The soft tissued aria in front of the eyes isn't growing as fast as the rest of their body. This is cousing a saddle and give the fish a beaky look. When the fish start to mature the aria in front of the eyes fills out more compared to the rest of the body give the fish the round shape. So later on they probably will compensate the saddle. The saddle on one of the fish recently started to fade a bit more so I have good hopes the fish with the saddles will turn out to be OK. The smallest fish don't have the saddles and the beaky look and among them some realy pretty fish!

The last 2 weeks the growth start to slow down and seem to become a normal growth rate. I measured a couple of fish and the smallest is just over 4 inch and the largest is just over 4 1/2 inch. I started feeding less beefheart and add Tetra discus granules to their diet. The fish start defelop stronger colors and paterns. Here some pics.


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## Dutch Dude

Some links to pics of wild Alenquer / Santarem

*Santarem:*

http://amazon-exotic-import.de/Gallerie ... %20RED.htm

http://amazon-exotic-import.de/Gallerie ... 0Jorge.htm

*Alenquer:*

http://amazon-exotic-import.de/Gallerie ... 0Mansa.htm

http://amazon-exotic-import.de/Gallerie ... r_Acai.htm

http://amazon-exotic-import.de/Gallerie ... 0Royal.htm

http://amazon-exotic-import.de/Gallerie ... Jaraki.htm


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## dwarfpike

Wow, the differance between their colors almost makes them look like differant strains.


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## Dutch Dude

Dwarfpike,....yes you can see lots of diference in colors. In wild groups this color diference also occur. The wild fish one can buy often are selected by the trade. For example the fish from the last 2 links are the same strain. First is a royal blue (sells over here for abouth $300,- each) and the second is a common fish (sells for abouth $180). The diference in prise is one of the reasons to split groups up in fish that look the same. I also expect I have fish from diferent parents and traits from diferent strains like red turquase. In the end I get what I wanted and the variety resembles a batch of wild fish.


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## Dutch Dude

Here you can see the natural variety. Each basin contains fish of the same location. Several basins are the same specie.


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## dwarfpike

Ayes, I think I remember that sometimes (espeically with various blue/brown wild strains) that you have to buy two 'differant' named wild discus to get both males and females ... in some locations the differances between the sexes is so differant that collectors call them differant things.


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## Dutch Dude

Dwarfpike,....never heard that before. As far as my knowledge goes it is almost imposible to determine sex of the fish and even people like Discus Hans make mistakes on determine sex. It is true the "trade" label discus wrongly to get a higher price. Some strains are more expensive as others.


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## dwarfpike

If I come across the article, I'll type it out for you. Maybe sexes might be wrong, but the same races carrying two differant names due to coloration differances. Next time I'm in the storage place I'll take a look.


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## Dutch Dude

Dwarfpike,....would be nice if you came across the article and I'm curious witch two "species" are involved. You are realy a walking fish encyclopedia :wink: 

In my case we are talking abouth domesticated Alenquers. Breeders cross diferent color strains and / or wilds to get fresh blood in their lines so they keep on producing healthy large discus. Excessive line breeding often causes weak and small fish. Offspring from red based fish rarely show the reds their parents display. The reason is in the natural water and environment and foods. To get the red colors in a domesticated strain like the alenquer might need an established red domesticated crossbreed. Fish with diferent bloodlines also produce diferent offspring. This would also explain the color differences among my fish. An other reason is the development stages. Some fish first defelop the blue and later on the red and some first defelop the red and later on the blue. Blue or red dots often flow into each other creating lines. Looking at my group some have already nice detailed blue striations on their head while others slowely start to defelop those striations and show only a weak pattern and blueish shine.

Maybe Hans can tell us more abouth the cross breeding among domesticated strains like the alenquer.


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## dwarfpike

Sadly, my memory isn't quite photographic ... but I do remember a lot of what I read. Makes it easy to refind articles as I generally know where it is. If my library wasn't in storage right now, I would have already found it for you. :thumb:

I remember visiting a local discus breeder back in like 9th grade, it was like candyland for me. :lol: I couldn't even imagine it now with all the new color strains (this was back in like '91).


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## Dutch Dude

Dwarfpike,...I'm jealous at your memory! I need my mobile phone to remember me on things :wink:

Have you ever kept Discus Dwarfpike? If not,.....when will you buy some? :wink: (not if but when) :lol:


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## dwarfpike

It's an odd memory, I can remember facts and entire conversations from like high school still, but I can't memorize phone numbers!!! I have to keep my own cell phone number as a contact in my phone to give it to people!!! :lol:

I haven't kept them in my own tanks, but had a couple discus tanks when I worked at the LFS. It will deffinately be 'when' ... not if for sure!! I would wait for at least a 90 gallon tank though, though for me the perfect discus tank would be a 150 gallon (5'x2'x2' - 150cmx60cmx60cm). The idea would be getting them smaller much like you did, start in a 50 gallon breeder bare bottom to grow them up, then move them to a 90 gallon bare bottom until they are adults and finally move them into a nice display 150 gallon. I would either go with wild browns or blues, or most likely a domestic version of wilds, F1 or F2 so the wild colors aren't removed or 'improved'.

See, I have it all planned out, just need the money and space to do it!!


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## Dutch Dude

So what has entered your memory is there for ever right? Well maybe an odd memory but it works. I often walk to a closet for example and when I'm there, opening the door I forgotten what I wanted to take out of the closet :lol: Yeah that bad! Even at my ages. My mother always told me, shaking with her head,....one day you forget to bring along your selves. But I also remember things from long ago that has reached my few cells that work properly.  I also have my own sell phone number stored in the phonebook. 

Your plans for the future Discus tank sounds like a good solid plan. A larger tank like a 150x60x60 would be great for a nice group of 6 to 8 but in a 120x50x60 you already can keep 6 of them. When they decide to pair up things might change dough but if you keep the 50 gallon grow out at hand you will have a perfect large breeding tank. If one keeps discus they know for sure they have to do lots owf water changes to keep the fish happy and healthy. This is easier with a 90 gallon. Something to consider. IMO no domesticated discus can reach the beauty of wilds but a few drawbacks. Wilds can bee a bit more skittish, you have to do parasite treatment on regular base (just like with cats and dogs) but the biggest drawback to me is the high price. The F1 fish never show the strong colors of the wild parents but they should be more tolerant towards water parameters. I wanted the same you did Dwarfpike but especially the high prise of the fish hold me back and made me decide to go for the much much cheaper improved "wild" color. They only cost me around $18,- each at the size of 2 1/2 inch guaranteed young fish, against average qualety wild Nhamunda blue at $220 for adult small fish (5 1/2 inch) with unknown age.


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## DeadFishFloating

> I have to keep my own cell phone number as a contact in my phone to give it to people!!!


rotflmao...

Well me too.


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## Dutch Dude

:lol: :lol: :lol: If people look surprised I don't know my own cell phone number I always rescue the situation by asking,....do you phone your own cell phone? No? So why I should remember? This often creates enough confusion to get away with it


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## DiscusQueen

Hi there.. Rurrd, Peter and Dwarfpike... Well I wonder if it is a gender thing.. :lol: :lol: :lol: . my husband has to do the same thing.. he has our cell phone number and our home phone number in his contacts also.. For some reason I don't have that problem.. 
On a side note... sounds like there's gonna be a few more interesting discus tanks out there in the future.... I would like to see more folks get involved with the more natural looking strains or wilds... *** had the golden pearls, checkerboards, rose reds and tangerines etc but would love in the future to have wilds or F1 or F2 browns, blues or greens.. Good luck to everyone with both their tanks and their memories.. I can tell you from experience... memory is the first thing to go :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Ruurd.. thanks for the updates.. sounds like your babies are doing great... they are gonna be awesome as adults. Sue


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## dwarfpike

Dutch Dude said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: If people look surprised I don't know my own cell phone number I always rescue the situation by asking,....do you phone your own cell phone? No? So why I should remember? This often creates enough confusion to get away with it


 :lol:

I say the same thing!!

Over here if you know where to look, some wilds are actually cheaper than domestic!!! If I had that tank already, I would order some 3" Cameta Browns for only $30 a piece from Fish Farm USA.

Having bought WC _Satanoperca_, getting rid of the parasites shouldn't be a problem. I deffinately think wilds would be worth the extra step. Yes they are harder to acclimate, but at the same time they don't get alot of the so called 'discus diseases' that the domestics seem prone too.

*DiscusQueen* - if you do go wilds, I'd recommend brown or blues first. They aren't as touchy as greens or heckels.


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## DeadFishFloating

> Dutch Dude wrote:
> If people look surprised I don't know my own cell phone number I always rescue the situation by asking,....do you phone your own cell phone? No? So why I should remember? This often creates enough confusion to get away with it
> 
> I say the same thing!!


Lol, me too. :roll:


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## Dutch Dude

Sue I indeed think it is a gender thing :lol: Same with birthday's and stuff,.....often the wife knows them all by head while men hardly remember their own 

I was never interested to Discus strains like the pigeon blood and related but more to Red Turquase (also red snakeskin) but I realy prefer the looks of wild fish. Drawback is the high price and I expect they do require some extra care if it comes to water qualety. Fish like Nhamunda blue or Cuipera are natural beauties. Unfortunately only few breed wild discus so F1, F2 fish are very rare. Stendker is the only large breeder I know that does have an Alenquer / Santarem line and a brown line. Unfortunately the fish lost most of their wild looks (by cross breeding) but still I like them better as the "glow in the dark" man made discus strains. For now I'll stick to domesticated fish but I don't rule out I will be involved with wilds in the future.



> I can tell you from experience... memory is the first thing to go
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> :? Ooops! Well one advantage,.....you can buy one news paper and read it every day and still the content will be new every single day!


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## AquaProbey

:drooling: I hate you I hate you all

those are some of the most beautiful fish i have ever seen!! =D> awe I wish i had a big enough tank  and enough money  to have discus, so Jealous

good luck with those beautiful fish


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## Dutch Dude

:lol: I assume thats a compliment :lol: Thanks for the not so nice words and the nice words as well 

When people buy small discus and grow them out their selves it isn't to expensive. Most of the money is in the tank (75 gallon will do), water bill but mostly the electricity bill. A proven pair can be kept in a smaller tank but the fish will be expensive becouse you buy adults. I hope they will be in your reach in the near future.


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## hey_wood1981

How often are water changes needed for adult discus? I would love to house some in a 90 gallon tank. Thinking maybe 7? I just don't have time for water changes needed while growing them out.
thanks


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## Dutch Dude

Hi Heywood,

I do a daily large (70% to 80%) water change every day on my youngsters. I use a hose to vacuum the tank, wipe the windows with a sponge, rinse out the first filter part and to drain out the water to 80%. Then I connect the hose to the tapwater faucet and start filling the tank with water of (approximately) the same temperature. In the mean time I can do some small "household" things but always keep on checking the water level in the tank. I don't want flooding! The total process for the cleaning takes up 1 hour but I use a smaler diameter hose (PVC hose for Eheim canisters). So physical it isn't that much work but yeah it takes some time.

Starting off with adults makes a huge diference. The number of cleanings depends on your set up, titration, stock level but 50% for 2 times a week is abouth the minimum. The reason is that discus are messy feeders and also have a poor metabolism so the water get foiled rather fast. The big plus of adult fish is that you see what you get. To me the drawback is the high price average at $130,- and can be higher or lower depending on the stain.

You could also pick discus inbetween, youngsters of around 4 1/2 to 5 inch. Those don't need the heavy beefheart feedings any more and tolerate more as smaler discus. At that size and receiving proper care there is a very small chance of stunting them. At 5 inch discus will grow just fine with 4 feeds a day and a large 60% (or more) every other day.

To give you more specific info on the number of water changes we need more info on your tank. Does it hold gravel or sand and how thick is the layer, is it bare bottom (BB tank), does it hold plants, what type of filtration is on the tank and how many filter turn over an hour?

To give you an idea on my 75 with 6 adult discus here some info. The filter is a DIY internal foam filter driven by 2 micro pumps doing each 260 GPH resulting in 7 times turn over (in the real even more becouse the netto volume is lower as 75 gallon). The tank does have a sand layer of 1/2 inch in the front part up to 1 1/4 inch in the plant aria. I do have some plants but would not want to label it as a planted tank. There are also some larger parts of driftwood in there to create a more natural environment and keep the tank pleasing as a display. I do 3 feedings a day of witch 2 of discus granules / pellets and one frozen (bloodworms, artemis) and sometimes live foods. I do a cleaning every other day of abouth 40% and once a week a larger 70% (in the weekend when I have more time). A bare bottom tank takes les effort to clean and les dirt gets trapped becouse there is no sand in it. If the 75 was a BB tank I probably could pull it off with 2 times a week 50% water change and a quick vacuum of the bottom inbetween to get ride of all the discus poop.

I hope this gives you an idea on the cleanings without making compromises. Some people do only once a week 50% but I don't think this is healthy for the fish and sooner or later they become ill. Al the water changes seem to be a lot of effort but the fish will thank you with beautiful colors. It is also nice to interact with the fish during the cleanings. I have to push them away every single time becouse they are so curious :lol: Discus are diferent to all the fish I have owned until now. They are very well aware of their surounding, domesticated discus aren't shy and beg for food all the time and great you when you are in front of their tank, they are gracious moving fish but still can display common cichlid behaviour.

Still questions? Feel free to ask


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## hey_wood1981

First of all, thanks for all the info. Dutch! :thumb: I'm kind of throwing around the idea of a discus tank right now with my girlfriend. We are both amazed by the beauty of these fish. The 90 gallon they would be going in has a thin layer of sand on the bottom, about 1"-1.5". As for filtration a rena xp3 and penguin 350. I do not have any live plants, just some fake ones. There is plenty of driftwood in the tank. Would live plants be better for the discus? I do have an extra h.o.b. filter that I could throw on there if needed.


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## Dutch Dude

Heywood,.....Your welcome. Keep in mind that I don't know everything abouth discus yet becouse I'm fairly new to them and only keep them for just over a year. I did have a great teacher (Apistomaster) and talked to quit some people who are much much more experienced to discus like Discus Hans for example. I learned a lot of those people and it feels good to pass on the gathered info and knowledge. Back to your reply.

Discus are indeed very beautiful fish and move very gracious. Still they have the common cichlid behaviour but it is much more gentle. They are also extreme curious and it isn't hard to learn them to pick food from your hand. Wild specimen are a bit diferent and from what has been told they are more skittish and shy but over time they can also be thought to feed from your hand. I suggest to start of with domesticated fish.

The tank volume is enough for 6 to 8 discus and imo 7 is a nice number. If you want some more room for error you could consider 6 discus for the 90 gallon. If they grow out to average adults they still be close to 6 inch in size and fill the tank nicely. Stendker and Discus Hans advice to keep discus by their own but imo a BN pleco or peckoltia are good clean up crew and help to control algea growth. Local bred apisto's are also good tankmates. You could also add tetras but imo the qualety of tetras is very poor for the last 7 years or so. If you do want tetras make sure they have 6 to 8 weeks quarantine before you can add them. If the fish carry illnesses or parasites it will be visible in that period.

Live plants are hard to grow on the high temperatures and frequent large water changes. So your silk plants are perfect suitable for the tank and they are easy to clean as well. I suggest to rinse them once a week or so. Live plants will consume nitrates but you will take out much more nitrates during a big water change. Wood is nice for discus especially if it creates shaded aria's. I do suggest not to put to much in the tank becouse this makes cleaning of the wood more dificult and time consuming. I suggest to brush the wood once a month depending on the molm and algea build up. This can be done in the tank during a big water change but I prefer to take the wood out, brush it to get ride of algea and proteins and put it back in. Sounds like a lot of work but cleaning all the wood takes me abouth 30 minutes once a month and can be done while you are draining or filling the tank during a water change. Your filtration sounds fine and plenty of turn over. I do suggest a spraybarr on the XP to diffuse the output and lower the flow in the tank. Duscus don't like fast moving water but a moderate flow is no problem. You use fake plants I suggest to decrease the sand layer to 1/2 inch. This makes cleaning easier and les build up of dirt in the sand. You won't need the sand for the plants and 1/2 inch is enough to cover the bottom.

If you decide to go with 4 1/2 to 5 inch discus I suggest to take all the sand, plants and driftwood out for the first half a year. It doesn't look to great but it saves a lot of work and makes cleaning much easier. When the discus are grown to their adult size in abouth 6 months you can add the sand, wood and plants again. It doesn't look to great but it would only be temporarily and you will enjoy the discus any way.

VERY IMPORTANT!!!!! *Start with good qualety Discus from a reputable breeder!!! *Lots of troubles and illnesses among discus have to do with poor circumstances, poor water qualety and poor qualety discus to start with. Your seriously considering Discus so I also seriously advice to become member of Simplydiscus. You find all info on their needs, care, illnesses, what to buy and not to buy from enthusiastic discus owners and experts like Discus Hans, Heiko Bleher and many more.

And remember,......domesticated discus aren't dificult or delicate only a lot more work (lots of water changes and cleaning). The beauty of the fish will defenately compensate the extra afford!


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## Dutch Dude

Abouth 2 hours ago 2 of my RT discus spawned in the 75 community tank  :dancing: Small chance it will be successfully becouse it is their first spawn but at least it will contribute to the fun.


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## Dutch Dude

The joy only lasted for a short time. Mom wasn't protective towards the eggs and after spawning she left of. Dad pushed her a few times but she didn't took brood care. Finaly dad ate the eggs and mom didn't do anything to prevent it. First spawn, inexperienced parents and mom doesn't do what she should do. But hey,....I witnessed a discus spawn!


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## DiscusQueen

Hi Ruurd.. Congrats on their first try =D> Now they are gonna be at it quite a bit..and the more they practice the better they will get at it.. Did you watch the dad fertilize the eggs... I loved watching that.. Some of mine used to spawn every 10 days or so even tho the fry never got beyond the free swimming stage as it was in a community tank.. the pairs don't seem to care.. they just keep "doing their part" :lol: :lol: .. Good luck with the next round... In a community tank the little ones will eventually probably all get eaten but it's great practice for the parents and great fun to watch.. Sue


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## Dutch Dude

Hi Sue.



> Did you watch the dad fertilize the eggs... I loved watching that


 You pervert!  :lol:

Yeah I have seen the male hovering over the eggs. Not sure if he actually released sperm but I didn't want to come to close to the tank. At one point I was only 2 feet from the glass but they stopped spawning so I didn't wanted to spoil it.

I did some large water changes on the tank and cleaned the foam filter parts a week ago. previous week there was already some tension in the tank with head shaking, dusky fins and quarrelling. This has hapened before so I watched it but didn't expected a spawn becouse the fish didn't paired up. Still no pairs have formed and it looks like all of them check out the opposite sex.

I don't mind to much the parents ate the eggs. The dad is the beautiful large male but mom has a deformaty in her dorsal and not sure if this is becouse of a rupture in the fry stage or a defect. She also have a saddle on the nose so not to best fish to spawn with. There are also things going on around the other fish and it looks like every one is in spawning mood. I expect the extra cleaning and the change in the weather has to do with it. Monday we had a thunderstorm and since Friday we have nice warm sunny weather.

The community tank contains 1 BN, 2 loricarids, 1 Peckoltia, 5 apisto's and 6 discus. There might be a small chance fry surfive in a next spawn. Right now the parents need to establish a stronger bond and practice some more. In a few months I can move the alenquers to the 90 gallon so I will have an empty 50 gallon tank. Great for a pair  I don't intend on breeding discus but I would like to raise a few spawns for the experience and to learn more abouth their brood care.

Thanks for checking out and your comment.


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## hey_wood1981

Thanks again for the reply dutch. Also, congrats on the first spawn. You must be doing something right. :thumb: I am going to take my time before I jump into discus. There is a store about an hour from me that sometimes has large discus for sale. When I have time I will go there and pick his brain and see what advise he has to offer. I prefer to buy somewhat local so they are already used to the water. My ph is a little high and I prefer not to buffer so I will see what he says. My angels, rams and sevs all do great in my water I just want to be extra careful with these delicate fish. Thanks and good luck with future spawns.


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## Dutch Dude

> congrats on the first spawn. You must be doing something right


 Thanks,....only keep up on water changes, feed 3 times a day and thats it. :wink:

Always wise to do some proper research before actually buying fish and especially with fish like discus. They aren't as dificult as most people claim they are but they do are a lot of work and one needs to be up to do the maintenance on the tank long term. There is also a lot to know abouth them and with fish of $150,- (adult fish) you don't want to take risks. So better to learn the ins and outs before actually buying them. IMO the best info abouth the care and needs are on Simply discus. I don't know the lfs you referring to but be careful and critical towards the offered info. Fish that are used to your local tapwater is an advantage but don't forget Stendker keep their discus on hard water to make the transfer to the costumers tank as smooth as posible. Mine are on PH=8 and absolutely no issues. To be honnest,.....Rams are more delicate as domesticated discus.

Do you keep us updated?


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## Dutch Dude

Yesterday the "pair" of RT discus performed their second spawn. From the start things looked diferent, both parents are more protective and changed to a darker color witch is normal for a breeding couple. Mom and occasionally also dad start fanning the eggs. After 24 hour all the eggs are still there and abouth 10 of them start to become fungused. If everything goes well they should hatch somewhere on Sunday morning.


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## Dutch Dude

This morning I detected the male discus was cleaning the previous spawning site and abouth 1/4 of the eggs were gone and it looked like they picked out mostly fungus eggs. Right now (13:00) the discus just ate the eggs abouth 20 hours before hatching. They move forward in their skills but probably need some more practising. I'll bet they will have a new batch of eggs within the next week.


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## msjinkzd

they are some beautiful fish and a very informative thread!


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## padlock 08

DeadFishFloating said:


> This is very hypocritical of me, especially considering that my plecos, or thier parents some where back along the line, were probably smuggled out of Brazil and then smuggled into Australia....
> 
> ...but it's a little concerning that there were a number of protected Australian lizards (bearded and desert dragons) to be seen there. It's illegal to own them here without a licence, and it's illegal for them to be exported. I know they are caught and smuggled out.
> 
> Like I said very hypocritical of me.
> 
> Other wise, I'm insanely jealous that we do not have something like that down here.


i dont know about how it is in holland, but over here in Ireland there are a lot of people breeding their bearded dragons and as far as i know all the dragons over here now are captive bred :thumb:

cheers, paul


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## Dutch Dude

msjinkzd,.....thanks for your nice comment. 

Paul,...thanks for the responce. I already expected the lizards were captive bread and I hardly could immagine someone takes the risk of selling forbidden and protected animals on such a large show. Peter,...you have to know snakes and lizards are more popular over here as aquariums. People will go through everything to get the rare species to breed,...just like in the aquarium hobby.

Talking abouth the vivarium show back in March when I bought the alenquer Stendkers,.....here a link to the Stendker fish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NpnNAa5 ... annel_page

On the clip Jorg Stendker (suit and glasses), Bastian Wald, and I suspect (Discus) Hans his wife but I'm not sure of that. I very much liked the red snakeskin couple!

Soon I will do an up-date on the third and more successful spawn of my Red Turquoise discus and off course an up-date on the alenquers.


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## padlock 08

this really is an informative thread :thumb:

yes, the owner of my lfs has 2 breeding pairs of bearded dragons at home and seel all the babies at his shop, there are also more vivariums old than fish tanks around here.

this is a link to an ad for a discus system for sale round here http://www.irishfishkeepers.com/cms...view/id,49806/catid,34/limit,10/limitstart,0/

just read the posts by the author *fishkeeper089* the system he set up is remarkable and completly wipes out all maintanence while keeping the parameters below any that can be hoped for from manual water changes


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## Dutch Dude

Padlock,...thanks for the nice words and good to hear you find this to be an informative thread.

That discus systems is easy to maintain but imo it doesn't need to be that expensive and sophisticated. A normal 75 gallon, good filter and long hose to drain and fill the tank will be sufficient enough. Dough if one doesn't care for the money I think it is a nice system.

I promised an up-date but there is so much going on that I need to do several up-dates. First lets me start with the 3th spawn of couple 1. Like I wrote before they already spawned 2 times. First time the ate the eggs as soon as they finished spawning. The second spawn a week later they ate the eggs abouth 10 hours before hatching and a week later the third spawn. That one defenately was diferent. They spawned again and took excellent brood care and were heavely defending their eggs and spot in the tank. They pushed 2 discus to the left and 2 discus to the right of the tank. After 2 1/2 day the eggs hatched. Normally wigglers are on the substrate but not those of discus. They are attached to the wall or wood. In the next 3 day';s the parents moved the wigglers 6 times to a different spot. From the wall on the wood and back on the wall. After those 3 day's of wiggling the fry became free swimming. It seem to happen all at once and in a wink of an eye they all became free swimming. Some attached to mom and dad right away and some get lot and were eaten by the apisto's. Mom and dad still heavily defended their spot in the tank and,....sometimes forget abouth their babies on their sides. So in short spurts they lost the fry but did their best to find them back and the fry would attach to their sides again. The apisto's need only short periods to snack some fry. After abouth 6 hours the parents were only left with 25 fry and suddenly lost interest to take care for them. Probably the reason is that it takes them to much energy to raise only 25 fry. Looking back at things they didn't had a chance to raise their fry in a discus community tank. I never expected them to become this far either and abouth 2 months ago I was prety sure I had 6 males, haha!

For those who wonder why baby discus attach to the sides of mom and dad,....the parents produce a secretion called discus milk which they feed on. So basically the fry feed from the extra nutritious slime coat of the parents.

Because of the eggs, wigglers and later on fry I wasn't able to do the large water changes. This might have up set the parents and stressed them enough to eat their eggs. So I had to do some catching up. Yesterday I wanted to do a large water change and some decent cleaning of the background, wood and substrate when,.....I detected a new spawn of,....a new pair! The 2 fish that were pushed to the right of the tank suddenly decided to become a pair, have a party and do some spawning! Now I have 2 pairs! Pair 2 spawned on the driftwood close to the substrate. They weren't as defensive as pair 1 and even left their eggs to get some food while pair 1 each fish get some food at his turn so always one of them was guarding the eggs. I didn't expected a successful spawn of pair 2 so I decided to go on with the water change and cleanings like I planed. Amazingly they started to defend their eggs and the male picked at me when I whiped down the window with a sponges, haha! After the cleaning the eggs were still there. This morning mom and dad left the eggs to check the neighbours and a male apisto had discus eggs for breakfast. When the female discovered the uninvited guest she chased him but only 7 eggs were left. Enough for me to check if they were feritilized. I could see a dark patch so they were which proves they are a pair and male and female. An hour later all the eggs were gone and mom snacked the last of them. So I did an other large water change so my tank was realy clean and perfect water qualety.

This afternoon I was shocked,......the 2 discus that were pushed to the left side of the tank were realy dark and cleaning the wood on the left of the tank. I see the breeding tubes and mom did a practice round. Only 5 minutes later they were spawning! I was stunned! I still have to wait and see if the eggs are fertile or not becouse 2 females can spawn just like a pair but from the looks of the vents they were male and female. So it looks like I have 3 couples out of 6 discus while I assumed they were all males, hahaha!

In the mean time I set up a 35 gallon tank as breeding tank. It is cycling and in a couple of weeks I will put one pair of the discus in there for breeding.

I also discovered 2 Guianacara show some pairing behaviour! Must be in the water. lol

Soon I will put a pic on here of a discus pair guarding a batch of eggs and of course the up-date on the alenquers.


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## edburress

Ruurd, great to hear about all the spawnings! I am looking forward to the pictures. If you would, keep me updated on the Guianacara also?

Ed


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## DiscusQueen

Hi Ruurd... Congrats on all the spawning =D> =D> =D> .. Now you see what was going on in my tank when I had the two pairs each spawning on one of the filter tubes at each end :lol: :lol: :lol: .. I think they see one couple spawning and decide to "get in the act".... Mine spawned every 10 days or so once they got started and each time became better parents... but as with yours.. their tankmates ate the eggs as well as the free swimmers.. If you want to raise the fry, as you well know, you have to set up the smaller tanks for breeding... But regardless it is still a lot of fun to watch all the behavior.. even that of the eggs being picked off by, in my case rummynoses.. Congrats again and keep having fun with them as well as the guianacara.. Please keep updating with more pics.... Sue


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## Dutch Dude

Ed,....I never expected to end up with one couple and now I have 3 couples out of 6 fish and a total of 5 spawns in only 3 weeks. Pair 1 is cleaning the wood again so it can't be long before they spawn again. I defenately keep you posted on the Guianacara but for some reason I don't expect much of it. In 2 weeks the tank will be changed and become the tank for the 7 alenquer discus and,.....two guianacara. I try to select the two that often hang out in the large cave underneath the driftwood. Those are the once who are close and show some spawning behaviour. It will be exiting how the discus / guianacara mix work out!

Sue,.....I gues it is the same principal as seeing one eat makes you hungry. :wink: I never expected to get discus breeding so easily! It seems like good care and especially clean water is already enough. Raising them in a community tank is almost impossible now I have seen the behaviour of the parents and the fry. I defenately want to breed some of the discus for gaining knowledge and experience. Thats why I set up a small breeding tank. I don't intend to breed them permanently but only one or two times. It is fun to watch their behaviour and broodcare even if they don't succeed. For some reason there is less quarreling going on and each pair spend most of the time in their own territories. Pair 3 are male and female becouse the eggs are fertile. They are still guarding the eggs and are very dark colored and almost black. Considering their first spawn they do a great job! I do have to take new pics of the alenquers. They aren't changed that much so thats why the up-date is delayed. Soon I will do an up-date and ad pics of them.

Below a pic of pair 1. It is a poor pic becouse I took it during the day so they won't become scared of the lights of the camera (for focus). Dad cleaning the eggs one by one and mom was on her lunch break but always close to the spawning site.


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## edburress

The pair looks great Ruurd! Is that another discus behind the piece of wood on the left of the male and eggs? Are they tolerant of others that close?

I look forward to hearing how the discus/_Guianacara_ mix works. Will you keep the rest of your _Guianacara_ colony in another tank or just keep the pair with the discus? I'll miss hearing the stories about the colonys behavior. I am still debating about a discus tank, I'm sure I'll keep them one day, and _Guianacara_ as well.

Ed


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## DiscusQueen

Hi Ruurd.. The pair look great.. I'm sure you will enjoy everyone's antics.. Please keep posting pics as they get better and better at being "parents".. Sue 

Ed... You know you want them... but warning.. discus are even more addictive than geos :lol: :lol: :lol: I'm sure you have an empty tank somewhere for them after your move.. And I'm also sure you will have a lot of fun with them and take great care of them.....Sue


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## Dutch Dude

Ed,....thats indeed the male of pair 3. Pair one spawned on the log that is the border of pair 3 their territory. Pair 1 (the once with the eggs) sometimes tolerated pair 3 to come close on their side of the territory but if one of them even looked at the eggs he or she would be chased. The parents become more territorial and defensive and sometimes even offensive after the hatching of the eggs.

Ed you will be very surprised,......I take down the Bolivian tank. The reason is simple,.....after 10 years or so I have seen all their behaviour, have breed them, have breed their fry and even let parents raise their fry to adults. I never came across wild specimen although my first batch (the once that became 7 years of age) might have been wilds. I lost my interest in the specie for now so time to move on to something new. The curent Bolivian tank will be the home of 4 guianacara,....no plants lots of wood and caves to make them feel at home. Just 2 of them will go into the 90 gallon discus tank. There are several reasons for this. First of all 6 guianacara and 7 discus is to much if it comes to bioload. The other reason is the quarreling of the Guianacara stressed the RT to much almost a year ago. Aggression was never an issue but somehow the discus always ended up in between 2 for territory quarreling male guianacara. I won't have that problem with just 2 guianacara and preferable the two that share the largest cave right now. Guianacara spend a lot of their time in their cave and are shy fish. A year ago I tried with the RT discus and as soon as I added the discus the guianacara came to the front and even started begging for food. Larger fish as tankmate seem to make them more at ease. I just want to know how the 2 guianacara and the 7 discus will get along and my expectations are high based on my previous experience. The other 4 fish will get along in the 50 gallon and get tetras and a rubberlip pleco (chaetostoma) as tankmate. I started off with just 4 guianacara and kept them before in the 50 gallon for abouth 2 months when I was building the new stand for the 90 gallon and put it up new as a Guianacara biotope.

Guianacara are fun fish and have lots in common with your OH if it comes to behaviour, needs, food. The only big diference it that guianacara are a bit shy, breed in caves and are milder mannered.

Ed,....I'm convinced you will do a perfect job on Discus. Only one problem,......they are very addictive and once you kept discus you probably want more and more of them. :wink: They aren't as amusing as a group of OH but they have something magical to them. Their movement and mild temperament makes them very diferent. They pick foods out of your hand, great you when you come home, need to be pushed aside during water changes and abouve all,....they are beatifull colored and nice shaped creatures. They aren't just nice looking fish but more than that.

Sue,...I will try to make some better pics. I'm starting to become less careful becouse I already know the discus aren't able to raise their fry in the 75 with all the tankmates. Sue your right,....discus are more addictive as geo's. Ed will do a great job on them becouse he already knows what to do. We have seen the pics of the Satanoperca and those seem to be more delicate as discus. Ed his satanoperca looked very healthy happy and great paterns and strong red.

An other short spawning up-date. Pair 3 ate their eggs / wigglers during hatching this afternoon. I wasn't surprised at all becouse it was their first spawn and,.......they have had some more arguments with the neighbours (pair 1). Pair 1 spawned again! This time on a small piece of wood on the substrate. I know the chance of them succeeding to raise the fry is almost zero so I wasn't as careful as the previous spawns. I already know they can handle things up to the free swimming stage. The last stage can only be completed in a tank of their own which is cycling right now. Sooooo,.....I performed a water change complete with vacuming. No problem at all! Dad bite the hose one time when I was at a distance of only 5 inch from the eggs. Dough he chased pair 2 several times and chased an apisto when they came at a distance of 12 inch. I gues the parents trust me. The eggs are still there and being guarded by mom and dad.

I have to say my discus aren't handled as most discus. I treat them just like any other cichlid with exception of the water changes. For the last 2 months I change the water with a hose,...draining and filling. Before I did with buckets. Most people take a small can and carefully add the new water but I just slowely pour the water straight in. The discus always loved the movement. My cats jump on the tank and tap the window with their paw and there is a couch in front of the tank at a distance of only 10 inch. If I like a song on the radio I play it loud. So my fish are used to nois, movement and things other discus owners are trying to avoid. I gues this helps and makes the fish to tolerate the water changes while they are guarding eggs. Most discus would have eaten the eggs becouse of stress coused by all of this.

Ed and Sue,.....thanks for showing so much interest and your nice comments.


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## padlock 08

=D> =D> =D> It really must be something in your water or else they're just rewarding you for giving such excellent care and turning them into the fantastic fish they are even though you found them in a petshop after a lond time :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: your right, that system was excessive but the owner had a good job and the irish never held back until our country went broke   are your Discus adapted to your hard, alkaline water? if so, this just proves that they dont need to be wrapped in bubble-wrap to stop them being harmed but if they are introduced to everything gradually then the only special needs they have are very low nitrates and a high temperature, right?

Cheers, Paul


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## edburress

Ruurd, I did sense through our PM's that you would soon move on from the bolivians to other species, but it is certainly understandable. You are addicted to discus now and that's okay  I have not kept bolivians as long or had the success you had with them, but I too have found myself more interested in other fish. I only have one bolivian now, one of my second generation females, and I am only keeping it to send to D-007. So, soon we will both be without bolivians. I am planning a collecting trip to Bolivia next year however, so I expect there is a chance I will keep them again. _IF _I can fit them in with the _Geophagus megasema _ and _Satanoperca pappaterra _ that I wish to bring back :lol:

I am looking forward to more updates and pictures, and also of how the discus/_Guianacara_ mix works :thumb:

Ed


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## Dutch Dude

Paul,....thanks for your nice comment. All I do is taking proper care of my fish and nothing realy special. So far I had only very few small issue with the RT. Right now pair 1 spawned again and the wigglers can become free swimming any moment. Next week pair 1 will be moved to a breeding tank to allow the fish to raise their fry without them to be snacked by the other tankmates. I look forward to breed some.



> that system was excessive but the owner had a good job and the Irish never held back until our country went broke


 :lol: That tank system was imo over the top and expensive. Nice for a lazy person with a lot of money to spend but the average fish keeper does have a tighter budget. One doesn't need expensive equipment to successfully keep discus.



> are your Discus adapted to your hard, alkaline water?


 Yes I keep mine on PH=8, GH=9 and KH=3 to 4 and the TDS is somewhere around 700 micro Siemens. Domesticated discus handle it just fine and they can even breed successfully in such conditions. I fill my tank straight from the tap and the low chlorine levels make that posible. Wild discus is defenately something diferent and are more demanding. The average nitrate levels in my tanks are around 12 mg/l. My tapwater already contains 10 mg/l nitrates. The fish were not gradually introduced to my tap water but straight from the alkaline water from the Stendker hatchery in my tap water. Your right,......*domesticated* discus aren't to hard to keep and most important is to keep the water clean and provide them the right temperature (28C) good qualety foods. One does need to be committed to the water changes and thats the hardest part on keeping discus in my opinion.

Ed,....I did made some plans for moving the alenquers to their new home but something messed up my plans. It is a long story and I will explain it later on. *Dwarfpike* already detected it a month ago



> Wow, the difference between their colors almost makes them look like different strains.


Now they reach the age and size they start to color up more they indeed turned out to be of diferent strains and crosses between alenquer and diferent strains like red scribbled, red turq. and possibly other strains. Only 2 of them turn out like alenquers. Out of 7 fish I have 2 alenquers and 3 of the 7 fish have severe saddles on the nose. I'm not pleased at all! I keep the one good looking alenquer and I found a local breeder with Santarem which are very similar to the alenquer type of fish only a stronger red base color and les blue striations. I can get them for half the price of the Stendker fish so I will check them out this Friday and if those are pleasing I'll take 6 home. I already know the parents are both Santarem so I don't expect the same problem again. I bought alenquer so I expect alenquer not an odd mix of crosses.

Good to hear you aren't shocked by the fact I lost my interest in Bolivians over time. They are nice fish but after 10 years they become boring. I'm indeed addicted to discus right now like you are addicted to eartheaters. If I'm correct it is quit rare to get fish from Bolivia so the planed trip sounds like an unique experience. It would be great if you could introduce some real wild Bolivians on the market again becouse most domesticated start to become poor qualety. I hope you make true your wishes for the mentioned fish species.

So the mix of the Guianacara and discus is delayed with at least 5 weeks. Next time I post pics to make clear why I get a new stock to replace the youngsters.


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## padlock 08

thanks, i might try some discus in the fishroom i'm building :thumb: (pm sent)

thats areal pity, i'm sorry for you, and that shouldn't happen when you specifially look for a certain strain :? hopefully you will find 6 more nice fish and get them growing well

Cheers, Paul


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## Dutch Dude

Hi there,

I received this PM from padlock. He does have plans to set up a planted discus tank and asked for my opinion.



> hey ruurd, thanks to your thread (which i didn't want to hi-jack with these questions) i too want to try discus. i will have either a 180 up to a 210 litre tank, I'm not sure yet. i will have a plant substrate topped with sand and i will plant it up with the excess of the following plants which I'll have left over from my 63l.
> 
> 5 x Echinodorus Tennellus
> 5 x Hygrophilia Polysperma
> 5 x Red Ludwigia
> 5 x Ambulia Aquatica
> 5 x Bacopa Monniera
> 5 x Red Ivy
> 5 x Diplis Diandra
> 5 x Vallis Torta
> 5 x Elodea Densa
> 5 x Hairgrass
> 5 x Bacopa Caroliniana
> 5 x Sagittaria Subulata
> 
> i will hopefully be able to carry out 3 water changes a week but nitrates shouldn't be a problem owing to the plants help. how many discus could i accommodate in this set-up and is there anything i should change.


To start off,.....I don't recommend to keep discus in a densely planted tank. The reason is that discus are messy eaters, have a poor metabolism so a large part of their food isn't proper digested. This easely foils the water witch is the reason many discus owners do lots of large water changes. Thats also why lots of people keep their discus in bare bottom tanks. Those are easy to clean and basically it is vacuming the bottom, whipe the glass with a sponges and do a water changes. Dough a nice planted tank with some discus in it looks just amazing! So I made a sort of a compromise by putting in a 3D background (DIY made), a small sand layer and some plants. Who followed my RT (red turquase) tank might have notised I started of with a decent planted tank and over time more and more plants disappeared. There were several reason for that. Main is that the plants grow bad without a proper plant substrate. I didn't add plant substrate so I could flip around the sand during cleanings to avoid gas build up in the sand coused by trapped dirt. An other reason is that small food particles and the proteins still left in the fish their waste easely settles on the leaves of plants. Last but not least is the suffering of the plants coused by the high temperature and lots of large water changes. So far my experiences. Keep in mind I keep 6 adults in a 75 gallon tank!

Paul,....you might have a sad look on your face after reading all of this but the good news is,.....*a planted discus tank is very well posible with some adjustments!*

Next my advice and opinion but keep in mind other people have diferent experiences. I do want to give you a solid advice witch is quit save.

Largest problem are the waste levels discus produce. Increasing nitrate level is only one of the results of that. I would defenately get a low stock level. Common is 10 gallon of realy water volume for each discus. For a planted discus tank I would advice 15 to 20 gallon of water for each discus. This should create some more room for error and should keep the waste levels lower so they will be easier to control. Discus do best in groups of 5 or as a proven pair. A proven pair are fish that have had fry so you be sure they are male and female and have a pair bond. Adding just 2 fish can bring you a lot of problems. Looking at the tank size you plan on it would be great to keep a single proven pair in there. You have the 20 gallon for each discus so the low stock level thats best for a planted tank. Now the problems with proven pairs is they are expensive and often are old breeders,....fish that are to old to produce proper spawns. Not many people are ready to pay $300,- or more for a pair of an older age. For the US I suggest to check Discus Hans his site. He is known to be reliable and sells of spare pairs. Here a link http://www.discus-hans-usa.com/ On top of the page you see "pairs for sale". An other method is to buy 5 or 6 younger fish of 3 inch, grow them out and after time there is a large chance they will pair up. This is what hapened with my RT. I've been told this works the best when the fish are grown up together and often doesn't work as good if they are already close to adulthood. It is OK to grow out 5 or 6 youngsters up until they start to pair-up. So you first could start off with a bare bottom tank and put 6 discus of 2 1/2 or 3 inch in there and wait until they pair up. You can keep the (best) pair and sell off the remaining fish. If you are able to arrange a temporary home for the pair you can set up the planted tank afterwards.

The plants,....I vote against grass like plants or sand covering plants. The reason is the dirt that gets trapped in or underneath it. In stead you could add some small echinodorus types like Echinodorus parviflorus or small crypto's or anubia. I would not recommend E. tenellus. E bolivianus would be a better choice but still an awful lot of dirt gets trapped inbetween the roots, leaves and runners. Plants like that make a carpet over time. H polisperma is a fast growing plant if it receives A LOT of light and nutrition. If they don't get that they often do poor and only have a nice top half. The bottom half often becomes a bare stem. Considering you need to keep the water clean and still do at least 2 times a week a 30% to 40% water change the H. polisperma may do poor. But you can give it a shot. I have bad experience with ludwigia and found it a to dificult and demanding plant. I did have great experiences with giant ambilia. It is a very nice looking plant and it can grow very very fast. If you want more? Just cut the stem half way and 2 or 3 new plants will defelop from the old stem. Dough they need some extra atention during cleanings becouse fine dirt gets easely trapped inbetween the fine feather like leaves. I have had experiences with Bacopa caroliniana and that one needs also a lot of nutrition and high light levels. Valisneria is perfectly fine for discus and back in the 80's a recommended Discus plant. Elodea densa or currently labeled as Egeria densa is extremely hardy, grows amazingly fast, consumes a lot of nitrates and actually cleans the water. It is the best plant to have during cycling of a planted tank. The more the better. Before the fish get in it can be reduced to normal levels. It is a perfect plant for the background. Same as the ambulia,...it needs some extra atention during cleaning. Imo hair grass is a no go in a discus tank. I'm not experienced with the plants I didn't comment on.

From a aquascape point of few and from the fish point of few I have some recommendations.

Fish
Discus need clean water and are messy fish with poor metabolism. The tank needs to be cleaned frequently and you also need to to regular larger water changes. Discus feel best with lower light levels and need an open aria to blow the sand in search for food and to swim around. They also need plenty of room so they can turn around and not get stuck inbetween plants. They also like shaded aria's like driftwood hanging from abouve or valisneria creating a shaded spot. In nature one very very very rarely finds an aquatic plant in their natural habitat. Domesticated discus are raised in bare bottom tank at the breeder and are used to that environment and for that don't need plants or substrate at all.

Aquascape
A nice planted tank with fresh green and a nice sand substrate looks awesome and can even boost up the color of the fish. Often fish appreciate the shelter plants can give. Lots of people try to stuff their tank with all sort of plants. Those type of tanks often look messy especially tanks smaler as a standard 75 gallon. I have had best experiences with only 5 to 7 plant species. I'm not a fan of Amano but some things behind the philosophy can be very helpful to create more depth in the aquascape. One of them is to create a focus point at 2/3 of the length of the tank. A focus point can be a plant that looks entirely diferent (color, shape size), a stone or part of driftwood or an open aria. Creating multiple focus points makes it hard to focus on the tank. It even can be distracting. Especially in your situation with a smaler tank and discus (they become around 6 inch in size) I recommend only 5 plant species.

This all is my opinion from my expiriences. Your free to make your own choice but pleas,......don't forget to give the Discus what they need! Sometimes we have to compromise in what we like to see and what is realy posible and healthy for the fish.

I think it is a good idea to make your own post and discus your plans and share it with more people.  I'm sure you will get some good feedback.


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## apistomaster

It is best to go easy on planting a discus tank. They need a lot of open space for swimming area and access to the sand to sift for food.
Use plants carefully and incorporate a few pieces of branched wood.
You want to have an attractive tank but you must make allowances for making maintenance easy as well since you have to do frequent large water changes and be able to clean up after they eat messier foods.
I highly recommend keeping a group of Hypancistrus spp Plecos or Peckoltia spp as bottom cleaners. They are better than Corydoras for this purpose and eat the same food as Discus prefer.
One small Pleco from these groups will eat as much as 3-4 Corydoras. A group of 5-6 makes an excellent clean up crew. They will do much for helping to clean up bits of food Discus always overlook.
I also always include one Ancistrus cf. cirrhosus, the common Bushy Nose Pleco, as my primary algae eater.


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## padlock 08

thanks for that lengthy reply :thumb: by the sounds of it i shouldn't plant up my 1st discus tank so i have revised my plan with what has (hopefully) the fishes best interests at heart, i will use a 57g bow-front which i picked up yesterday, plenty of wood, which i hope to create a root-style theme but still leave enough room for the fish to comfortably maneuvre, the bottom will be a thin layer of sand which i can easily vaccume and agitate to prevent gas build-up, would a stock of 5 (10g/fish) discus and some form of pekoltia or hypancistrus along with a trio of bn's, 40% water changes 3-4 times weekly and a temp. of 28 deg.
Would the above sound ok for a newbie's attempt at keeping discus, i'm sure i've missed a lot of vital points so could i be set right please? sorry for the hi-jack

Thanks, Paul


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## apistomaster

Paul,
You are on the right track. If using fine sand like pool filter sand you don't want to use much deeper than one inch but deeper is possible as long as you routinely hydrovac the stuff.
I think 5 adult Discus would be fine but I think you could go with 6.

I recommend only a single Bushynose. I keep just keep one adult in my wild Nhamunda Blue Discus' 125 gal tank and he keeps the algae controlled. If you add more they will breed. Most of the fry will be eaten by the Discus but some often survive and soon you will have too many bushy nose plecos. They are impossible to prevent from spawning. That's why I call them "Guppyostomus."

Hypancistrus spp and Peckoltia spp love and require the same temperatures as Discus which is another reason why they are better than Corydoras. Sure, some Corydoras do well in warmer water like C. sterbai but I find that the group behavior of the small carnivorous plecos to be far more interesting. They come in astonishingly beautiful colors. For example, see how pretty the Leopard frog plecos, L134 are.


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## DiscusQueen

Hi there
Paul... You have been given some great advise by Ruurd and Larry.. I also agree that for your size tank one bristlenose is sufficient.. They are great at doing their job, especially while young, but they are big poopers.. altho not nearly as bad as the common pleco.. That combined with their whittling of the dw does make a mess... so one should certainly do for you. 
A lot depends upon the size of the discus you are starting with.. Usually, the smaller/younger the discus the more susceptable to disease/stresss etc.. the more feedings and water changes and vacs needed. .. But somehow the sheer beauty and regal manner of the fish make the water changes almost a fun practice of watching their behavior.. I find they seem to smile back at me after a waterchange... Just remember to purchase your discus from a good source and hopefully all at the same time.. The better your source, the happier you will be over the long run..Don't remember where you are located but if you have a breeder/source nearby so you can see the fish that would be best for you.. Good luck with your future plans. Sue 

Ruurd... Hopefully your new discus will be exactly what you hoped for.. Santarem are great... Can't wait to see the new pics.. take care my friend... Sue


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## padlock 08

ok, well thanks for all your help with me on setting this tank up. i have now almost certainly got permission to set up this tank in the house now, rather than the fish room i'm planning. how does this sound?

215 litre bowfront tank, 6 2.5" discus, barebottom until the discus have grown a fair bit, daily vacs while the fish are growing. When full grown cleans reduced to 4 times weekly, add a thin layer of sand and lots of driftwood, no plants. some form of carnivorous plec to help clean up.

Is there anything else i should be taking into consideration?

Thanks, Paul


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## Dutch Dude

Sue,.....hey sweety long time no see  I have found a local breeder with a gorgeous pair of Santarem. I bought 5 youngsters to go with the one proper alenquer of the "old" group. At the breeding room of the breeder I did missed some flaws. Most of the fish have small imperfections on their fins. Nothing realy serious but also not like it should be. BUT,......I also discovered some early stage of HITH!!! [email protected]!!! It is clear the youngsters have had a hard time! It will take a while to get them back to a healthy stage dough. It seems almost imposible to get decent young discus of good qualety without paying $100,- or more! So my plans are to eventually get some healthy youngsters by breeding my own stock. This seems to be the only way to get the fish I want. More later on.

Paul,.....you probably have reed the abouve. If you go to a local breeder make sure their is plenty of light so you can do a proper investigation on the fish. Look at the details and don't become overwhelmed by only the body shape and nice strong colors,...like I did :?

You have received some great advice from Larry and Sue and both of them are far more experienced on discus as I ame. Your plans for the bare bottom start sounds perfect. A daily vacuum is a good idea but youngsters also need several large (50% and up) water changes a week. I suggest a long hose that reaches the garden or the toilet to drain the water of and the possibility to hook it up to the tapwater faucet. This makes live much easier. Your future plans for cleaning the tank sounds also fine. A 50% water change every other day should be enough to keep the water clean enough. I would not do les becouse the tank is stocked with 6 adult discus.

I keep a BN and a peckoltia in my RT tank. The future alenquer tank will hold also a peckoltia and 2 BN's. The peckoltia species are realy gorgeous! Some of them have very nice strong orange colors or have great paterns! Very attractive pleco's but unfortunately expensive. BUT,....Larry could be a cheap source for them. He breeds L134 very successfully and those are realy awesome looking peckoltia as you can see on the pic abouve.

Paul,.....food is very important for discus as well. They need to be fed several times a day and need some heavy foods like beefheart, bloodworms but also some vitamin rich foods like good qualety pellets or an enriched beefheart mix. I prefer a mix of several types of food. Main food for youngsters is beefheart.


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## Sean117Ply

Well I'll be turning my 55g discus tank into a planted tank, co2 and all.

Discus are fascinating creatures but it's **** hard finding good quality specimens. I purchased 6 from a wholesaler most of them were fine but one hasn't grown a bit in 1 1/2 years.


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## Dutch Dude

Sean,....


> Discus are fascinating creatures but it's darn hard finding good quality specimens


Your right on that one and I have also troubles to get decent qualety for a normal price. The new Santarem turn out to be poor qualety as well despite their fantastic colors. Probably that batch can be considered as lost. At first I was disapointed and wanted to get new Santarem but after some proper thinking asking some people for their opinion I step back from the Santarem and just wait and keep my eyes open for some decent fish.

In the meantime I took down my last heavy planted 50 gallon tank and set it up as a breeding facility for one of the RT pairs. It will be the new home for pair 1. Right now they have a batch of wigglers again but probably those will be snacked by the other tankmates as soon as they become free swimming. This will be by the end of the week. When the fry are gone I move the parents over to the 50 gallon breeding tank. The RT are no price winning fish but at least healthy, nice colored and average to good looking. Lets see how their offspring will look like. Later on I will provide a better up-date on all the things around the new Santarem and "old" alenquer.


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## edburress

Ruurd, sorry to hear you have had some problems with the original stock as well as the new Santarem discus! I know that must be annyoing. I am sure the offspring will be nice and you can have some really nice specimen from them to keep and raise. The same plan as with your good quality bolivian fry now with the discus 

I'm glad to hear you have a breeding tank ready for pair 1. Is it scaped or bare? I'd like to hear some details about how you've set up the breeding tank for them and some pictures too.

On a side note, over the weekend I visited the house I will move into in another month and tested the tap water: TDS: 68 micro siemens  so it looks good if I decide to try discus!

Ed


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## DiscusQueen

Hi Ruurd.. Sorry you are having so many problems finding quality discus that you like... Maybe that's a sign you should just grow your own :lol: :lol: ... then there will be lots of beautiful discus around with you as their source.. :thumb: .. Would love to see pics when you get the breeding tank all setup.. Did you notice how Ed is coming over to discus.. testing the water and not even moved in yet.. That's a sure sign :lol: :lol: .. Take care Sue  
Ed... I think you are gonna be hooked.. And we just happen to know a guy who could probably hook you up with some nice ones.. gee he's only gonna be a few miles away and all... I think you would really like the experience of raising them and the discus would be in great hands.. I'll be looking forward to seeing the pics of the setups once you move.. tanks of geos, gymnos, discus and w/c bolivians...... That should keep you busy :lol: :lol: . Still trying to get you updated pics of the babies.. I found the cord thing so hopefully over the weekend.. Sue


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## Dutch Dude

Hi there. After a period of nice hot weather it started to rain so a good time to give you some more info on some frustrating issues.

Lets start with the original stock I bought back in March at the Vivarium show. I had some realy nice contact with some folks of Stendker and among them Hans and Bastian. Some e-mails back and forth and they were willing to take some alenquer and santarem to the Vivarium show. My number once choice is alenquer becouse they have some more blue to them and appear more natural. I checked the fish at the show. The santarem were rather expensive and were 4 inch in size. They were offered for sale for a normal fish store price of 41,- euro each. They showed very little blue so I went for the much cheaper and smaler alenquer. They only were 14,- euro each at a size of 2 1/2 inch. I was so happy to receive fish directly from Stendker and the fish didn't spend a long time in a fish store or were mis labeled like my RT. Yeah thats right,....when I bought those fish I was told they were alenquer. Well we all can see on the pics they are red turquase. Back to the alenquers from the Vivarium show,..... The fish settled in rather quickly and first week they were normal eating and second week they start to eat like they weren't fed for a couple of day's. The growth was very quick! Abouth a month later I discovered the saddles in front of the eyes. Some people call this beaky or chicken beak. According to Stendker this was coused by the high growth rate. I also contacted some other breeders, send a pic, told abouth the growth and feeding regime. Only one out of 5 could confirm this while the oteres all told it was a genetic thing. Here a pic of the worst looking fish. Notice his very round body shape for his age. It is a poor pic but shows the saddle good.










Out of 7 fish 3 of them showed such a saddle. A fourth fish also showed 2 saddles but not as worse an diferent,....smaller and les noticeable. An other problem was the color shade. I bought alenquer and they should look like the fish on the next pic. Notice this one does have a normal body shape, don't show the saddle and have the normal color paterns for an alenquer. (shows stress bars becouse of camera up close). The fish in the back ground is also and alenquer but shows the saddle (beaky look)










If you look back at the previous pic you see a huge color diference. The beaky fish from the previous pic is most likely a Red Scribbled.

The two fish on the left on this pic shows paterns close to red turquase or even posible brilliant turquase.










So if one goes trough all the effort to get alenquers and end up with fish like this you probably can immagine it didn't made me happy. I contacted Stendker abouth it and first responce was that they could not tell if a 2 1/2 inch fish was the right color shade. Imo they have mixed parents and for that know they will give mixed fry. I also asked abouth if something could be arranged and I was willing to pay a fair prise for better qualety and real alenquers. I could order 5 1/2 inch fish at a Stendker dealer and if I would they would look at my case again and maybe they could arange a discount for the lfs (stendker dealer) so they could give me (the customer) also a discount. :-? I was treated polite by the people of Stendker Germany but I'm not pleased with how they handled this!

So I spend a lot of time on internet to get or wild discus or real santarem or alenquer. I found one source with royal blue wilds but ooh boy,.....I realy don't want to pay $300,- for a full size (old adult) wild discus of old stock from previous season! And then I found a local breeder with santarem!!! Yesssss! The parents were awesome looking jumbo Stendker fish. So I checked him on google and could not find negative or positive writings abouth his fish. I decided to take a look and buy some youngsters. The parents were realy beatifull fish! He had a tank with 30 fry of them and everything looked OK. The light level was low so I must have missed some things. At home I detected some with deformed pectoral fins and a few with an irregularity in the dorsal. No perfect fish but good enough and besides that wilds aren't perfect either and often have scrapes or damaged fins from attacks of predators. When I took a better look I notised,.....HITH!!! [email protected]# The guy set up a new fish room and just when he finished the pair had a large spawn around 150 fry. They were put in still cycling sumps. The sumps could not hold the bioload along with overfeeding and not enough water changes. The conditions became so bad the fish developed HITH. Fish can "heal" fom it but often they turn out to be weak fish. When the fish become older or water qualety is slightly off they can defelop the HITH again.

I sold the 6 Stendker fish I bought at the Vivarium show and kept the one good looking fish from the second pic. I still have the HITH Santarem but I'm not sure what to do with them. I gues it all depends on how they heal and if they catch up in health. If not I will put them down becouse I simply can't sell a ill and poor qualety fish to someone else.

For now I'll stick to the RT, defenately keep the one good looking alenquer and keep an eye on the 5 santarem for the next 4 to 6 weeks. I have a low expectation of the santarem dough. So I need to find more alenquer or santarem or cross it with an RT and hope for fish that look like alenquer. Main focus is now on the RT pairs.

Next post will contain pics of spawning RT, and info on the new breeding tank.


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## DeadFishFloating

Hey Ruurd,

Mate, that's pretty ****ty to hear. You would not expect to be treated like that from a recognised breeder, and to have been is very unfortunate. Then to be stuffed around again, by a private breeder, is just really bad luck.

I hope you find the fish that your looking for in the future, and that you have some luck go your way.


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## Dutch Dude

I will first respond to the posts of Sue and Ed,

Sue and Ed,....Yeah it is realy hard to get decent fish over here, Yesterday I sold the Bolivians to a guy who also keeps discus. He confirmed this and also his friend who used to owned discus. The guy who bought the 6 beaky mis labeled 6 discus was realy happy with "the good qualety". I gues thats enough confirmation. I came across such a problem 2 times before. First time was with my second batch of Bolivians. Those were all deformed and of a poor qualety. I start breeding them and selected the best fish and continued breeding with those. In the end I had a nice healthy good looking stock of rather large Bolivians spawning every 3 weeks. Abouth 1 3/4 year ago I wanted to give apisto's a shot. I received 2 batched of Bloat (= flagellate invested fish) and only 1 out of 14 made it. I bought a third harem of 1 male and 2 female and start medicate them right away. One became sick but cured after 2 weeks of medication and daily water changes of softened water (mix of RO and tapwater). I succeeded to spawn them and those fry are now happy healthy and company for my discus and guianacara. So they only way to get decent qualety healthy fish seems to be breeding my own stock. Yep,...discus will be the next :wink: Not that dificult becouse I have 3 pairs of RT discus to chose from. This week I had 2 spawns at the same time and,.....very close to each other. Pair 1 (very productive pair) and pair 3 (just their second spawn). Each pair spawned on the driftwood and protect it. Check the pic.










Later on more abouth pair 1.

Back to the postings,....yes Sue and Ed, my plans are to breed my own discus and select the best fry for the display tank. I can sell the remaining good qualety fish and finally get back some money that can help to finance the hobby. I don't intend on become a breeder but I'm convinced I won't have to much dificulties to sell good looking healthy youngster for half the price of fish in the stores.

Sue,....hahaha,...yes funny Ed measures the water in the new house while it takes an other month before he can move, haha! I thought I was a fish junk but Ed is much worse :wink: :lol:

Ed a TDS of only 68 is very very soft! That would be perfect water for wilds and especially suitable for Heckels. But I suggest to start off with domesticated or wild blue / brown. The Greens and especially the Heckels are known to be more challenging. Ed,...did you already checked on local discus breeders? And,....are you already member on simplydiscus??? You will have your hands ful on all those tanks and breeding projects. I gues you will live in the spare bedroom and make a fishroom out of the living room?!  I know someone like that! I won't mention his name but it starts with an L and last part is arry,...start guessing, ill wait opcorn:


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## Dutch Dude

Sorry double post


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## Dutch Dude

The breeding plans.

Since pair 1 of the RT started breeding abouth 6 weeks ago they spawned 5 times. First batch of eggs were eaten after finishing the first spawn. Second batch was eaten short before the eggs should be hatching, the 3th, 4th and 5th spawn was eaten by the tankmates after the fry became free swimming. The frustrations around decent qualety discus, my plans to sell of the Bolivians becouse they become boring after 10 years and the promising behaviour and brood care of pair 1 made me decide to chance the 50 gallon Bolivian tank into a breeding tank.

The 50 gallon is the same dimensions and same set up as the grow out tank I used for the alenquers. The filter is also the same only a bit smaler and only contains 2 sponges in stead of 3. The tank was originaly set up for a small heavy planted community tank so no needs for heavy filtration. For the pair of discus the filter is sufficient considering the low bio load. I have 24 gallon real water amounth for each discus while the 75 discus tank only contained 11 gallon for each discus. No I did calculate it correctly,.....the 75 contains sand, wood a background and an internal filter that takes away water volume. The 50 only contains the filter.

I didn't put a background in the tank and even removed the DIY 3D background to create more space for the discus and makes it easier to keep it clean. The tank is a bare bottom becouse this makes it easier for the fry to find bbs, and is much easier to keep it clean. I would have liked some cover up of the filter compartment but I didn't had time to order epoxy and let it cure for 2 weeks. The fish have successfully spawned but weren't able to protect the fry from the other tankmates. An other 2 spawns getting eaten might frustrate the parents and turn them into egg eaters. For the fish it makes no diference if the filter compartment is covered or not. For me it will be easier to detect if the filter becomes to dirty and if biofilm is formed on the sponges. So every disadvantage does bring along an advantage. Thats a famous sentence of Johan Kruif (football legend) and in this case very true. So I bought a sheet of 3/4 inch styrofoam, got some acrylic concreate paint color blue and made a background. I put back in one of the old and cycled sponges from the Bolivian tank and put in a new one as well becouse one of the old sponges was large grain and small grain contains more surface aria (= more space for bacteria). I put a micro pump in of 210 GPH and cut it back (adjustable on the pump) to approximately 130 GPH and connected a ball valve on the output as well. The valve is close to the water surface so I can adjust the output without removing the pump and make to much disruptions in the tank. I need to lower the flow when the future fry become free swimming. I conected the pump to 2 spraibars mounted 2 inch below the water surface with the water beams pointed upwards in an angle of 45 degrees. This way the water beams will break the water surface and lose their strength so the flow in the tank becomes more diffuse. The water temperature is set to 83 like the other two discus tanks. At first I wanted to put in a flower pot to breed on. Those are inexpensive and only cost $1,- or so. But I was thinking,...."if I want to be more serious in breeding discus I should do it properly" and bought an breeding cone after all for $15,-. After 3 day's "cycling" and a big wc I was ready to move the discus. Yesterday the fry of pair 1 were eaten so I caught them this morning. I expected them to act diferently and need to adjust to their new environment. I was amazed they already started begging for food withing half an hour! One hour later I put in some bloodworms and those were eaten right away! Their color is more vibrant as in the communety tank but I also think the blue background brings out their colors better. Dad has inspected the corner of the filter and mom is currently inspecting the cone. I have seen some shivering and bending and bowing already. So I expect in only takes a couple of day's before they will spawn again. Their only tankmates are a bunch of shrimp but I don't think they will last for long. The shrimp are from the bolivian set up and during taking down the old set up I missed those in the murky water. The tank contained abouth 300 cherry shrimp and 30 or so are in with the discus. There is to much daylight on the tank right now (close to a window) but I will take some pics this evening.

Here some pics of a previous spawns in the communety tank. Poor qualety and dirty window but you get the idea right?


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## Dutch Dude

Hey Peter,.... I also expected something diferent. At first I bought the RT at an lfs for over a year ago and when they turned out to be RT in stead of alenquer I thought the shop messed up. Thats why I was so happy to receive fish directly from Stendker and those turned out to be at least 3 diferent color shades. I can understand things go wrong but imo it is **** they can't see if a 2 1/2 inch fish is an alenquer or something diferent. If mom is alenquer and dad is alenquer the children will be alenquer as well. So I most likely received fish from mixed parents. Still that can happen and making mistakes is part of being human. But I was expecting a diferent arrangement especially after I wrote I was willing to pay a fair price for the new fish. The local breeder knew his fish have been ill and suffered HITH and are still curing from that. He just screwed me and stupidly I wasn't paying enough atention and was overwhelmed by the beauty of the parents and his "talk abouth qualety" along with the low light levels on the tank. First I was very disappointed but it also made me a bit angry! The last one made me decide to breed my own stock and hopefully I can make some people happy with good qualety fry. One thing is for sure,.....I'm determined to breed some discus and I learned from the situations. I only lost $100,- in total but with only 1 good spawn that money is easely earned back. So my plans have changed and some are set back but new plans arise and I'm very exited to hopefully breed some beautiful discus.


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## Dutch Dude

This is how the 50 gallon Bolivian tank looked like










And that is turned in to this,......shocking isn't it? :lol:










This is making up for it


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## DiscusQueen

Hi Ruurd... Sometimes things just work out the way they are supposed to.. and for you.. you were just meant to raise your own beautiful babies.. You have the perfect setup and discus to do just that.. :thumb: Please keep posting their progress.. opcorn: I know they will turn out to be wonderful parents and have beautiful babies for you... Sue


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## Dutch Dude

Look what has happened this afternoon!










Thats a good start and a nice amounth of eggs. The fun can begin. This morning pair 3 also spawned on the wood pair 1 (the once in the breeding tank) used to spawn. Pair 3 has now claimed 2/3 of the tank. Pair 2 will spawn soon if I look at their behaviour. Unfortunately pair 2 aren't as promising as pair 1 and 3 if it comes to brood care. Realy a pity becouse those are 2 very nice fish.

Sue,....no it indeed didn't worked out like I hoped for. Your right,..it opens new possibilities and maybe it was indeed meant to be. :wink: Whatever the reason is,....I have gotten a whole bunch of new possibilities and I'm exploring those. I also found a new breeder and possibly he holds F1 Cuipera en F1 Nhamunda. First I will concentrate on the RT and hopefully I'll raise some fry. I'll expect the parents to do an exelent job until free swimming stage. What will happen after that I don't know and I look forward to hopefully see the next step. Tankmates are no problem any more so there is a fair chance they raise this batch.


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## edburress

Ruurd, that didn't take very long! I guess two days to settle in the new setup and that's all they needed. A good sign they enjoy being in your care :thumb:

I'm sorry for all the trouble you've had, but maybe watching the RT pair raise some fry will make it better. That looks like a good amount of eggs and it looks like the parents are tending them well. I'm looking forward to reading more updates on how the spawn goes and of course more pictures 

Ed


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## Dutch Dude

Hi Ed. I gues something wasn't right yet for the pair becouse when I came home from work all the eggs were gone and eaten by the parent's. I gues it was just to soon and they need more time to adjust to the tank. Pair 3 is still going strong on an equal batch of eggs in the 75 gallon. The good thing is,....pair 2 also spawned! Those two fish are very good shaped and have something wild to them. Lets see if they gain in being parents. If I remember it well it is just their second spawn. I'll keep you posted


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## DiscusQueen

Hi Ruurd.. SOOOOOO how is pair # 2 doing??? How about the others.. any new pics opcorn: opcorn: .. I know I am impatient but patience was never one of my fortes LOL.. Hope all is good. Sue


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## Dutch Dude

Code:


I know I am impatient but patience was never one of my fortes

 :lol: :lol: :lol:

I will up-date somewhere next weekend and need to take some new pics. All 3 pairs spawned in the meantime and all eggs and wigglers have been eaten. Pair 3 took for 1 day care of wigglers so they improve broodcare. Pair 2 their eggs were fungused half a day before hatching and only 5 wigglers that were eaten 2 hours after hatching. Pair 1 (the best pair) have eaten their spawn probably they still have to get used to the new home.

Latest news is that Saturday pair 3 spawned again and yesterday pair 1. Lets see what will happen this time.


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## edburress

Ruurd, I think "next weekend" is now :wink: Update!


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## Dutch Dude

:lol: :lol: Hi Ed,....in fact next weekend was a week ago. :wink: How are you doing bud? How abouth the move?

Up-date,.....oops,...were do I start! The lonely alenquer,....he is moved to the Guianacara tank and everything goes amazingly well! I expected some small issues for the first couple of day's but non! The discus was stressed becouse of it and turned dark short after introducing it. The Guianacara were curious right away! One male checked up on the discus if he was OK and carefully pushed him a bit. When the discus responded he backed off and curiously keep on watching him. All Guianacara checked the discus one by one. Came close looking at him and showed him the body language that goes around when they are socializing and playing around. The discus is well excepted by the group and they ignore him for most of the time. Definitely no aggression or issues at all! So far everything goes very very smooth. One of the female Guianacara likes the company of the discus. Both spend quit some time togeather. The discus is still a bit stressed but it is quit normal for discus they need 2 weeks to get used to e new environment or change in aquascape. He doesn't eat like it should be but I think that is related to his new environment. He also does have a positive effect on the shines of the Guianacara. They seem to be more confident and less shy. So far everything goes well!

Discus pair 1 are in the 50 gallon breeding tank like i posted before. I added a second breeding cone (up side down rose flowerpot) and short after that they spawned again. This time they took proper broodcare and everything went smooth. Out of 100 eggs I ended up with 55 wigglers. Some of the wigglers died short after hatching and some never hatchet. Still 55 wigglers in my moderately hard tapwater and PH=8 is a good rate. After hatching wigglers will need 3 day's to become free swimming. In those 3 day's some of the fry try to swim but they can't becouse of the yolk sack. Those fall down from the cone and immediately get spitten back by mom and dad. Those fan the fry 24/7 and clean them all the time. After 2 1/2 day's first fry became free swimming. Imaging fry at the size of a apisto fry in a 50 gallon tank. Here is were troubles started. The flow from the filter was to high. The fry were all over the tank! Also in the first filter compartment. At that point the flow was to low for them to get sucked in but the tiny fry easely get lost in the compartment. They need start feeding from the discus secretion (also known as discus milk) and if they don't they will end up DOA. Here is were I lost most of the fry! I discovered it to late and just stupid of me not to stuff the intake with a foam strip. I was left with 20 or so free swimming fry that were all over the tank,....in stead on mom and dad. I reduced the flow even more. The next day I only had 6 left! Normally discus don't raise small numbers of fry. If the number is below 20 they normally eat the fry and spawn 5 day's later. They probably don't raise a small batch becouse it takes a lot of effort of the parents. They don't seem to want to go through all of this for only a small number. Mine didn't ate the fry but they did showed signs a new spawn was cumming up. One of the cones started to become green so I took it out to clean it in case mom and dad decided to eat the fry and spawn. Then I discovered an other problem. The cones weren't completely plane and some small gaps between the tank bottom and the edge of the cone,...just enough for fry to fit. Some of the fry actualy went underneath the cone! When I took the cones out I Suddenly I had 10 or so,.....still a very small number. Finding mom and dad was still a major issue. The parents also swimm from left to right and for the fry almost imposible to keep track. I lost more fry and was back to 4. I lowered the water level to 10 inch and that seems to work better. Yesterday I was left with only 2 fry and today only 1. I'm not sure why they are still disappearing. Maybe mom and dad eat them or maybe there is an other reason. The fry were growing so feeding was not an issue. The water is relatively clean and nitrates at 12 mg/l They seem to disappear over night. Probably I will lose the last fry tomorrow. I consider this spawn as final practicing round. I learned from some stupid mistakes and the parents gained in broodcare. Now I'm close to be able to raise a batch.

On the second floor I turned the grow out tank to a second breeding tank. I moved pair 3 earlier this week. I have learned a few things from the spawn of pair 1 and looked up some more info on breeding discus, the tanks and I have received great advise from my friend Larry W. (apistomaster). He guided me along the way. Sometimes it must be frustrating for him, telling me what I should do and I'm trying to do it my way. All the time he was right and I had to change plans, haha! So I made some changes this week on the breeding set up for pair 3. I removed the pump from the filter and put in a PVC tube with a bend like an up side down "J". I put in an air hose and conected it to an air pump. Here we go,...a air lift water flow system. I measured the flow and came to abouth 35 GPH. Still I stuffed the filter intake to prevent fry go in there. An other issue was the size of the tank. Fry get lost or could not keep track with the swimming parent. Once the fry are 3 day's of free swimming it isn't a problem but the first 2 day's are the hardest for them. I could lower the water level but I would still have the length of the tank. So I decided to put in a tank divider made of those blue filter sheets used for pond filters. This way I could create 2 compartments of each 16x16x20 witch is minimum size for a discus breeding tank. Yesterday afternoon pair 3 spawned! So lets see what will happen. I don't expect they go all the way becouse they are new to the tank and still have to get used to the new environment. Pair 3 is in the left compartment with the original in-tank sponge filter from page 2 of this thread. Pair 1 will be in the right compartment soon. I did need to build a sponge filter for that compartment becouse sponge filters are hard to get over here. The filter needs to cycle first.

Pair 2 is still in the 75 communety tank and ate their spawn yesterday immediately after the spawn was finished. I keep an eye on them next time but the problem might be in the male not fertilizing the eggs properly.

Curious at the breeding tank, divider and DIY sponge filter? I will post pics tomorrow. I realy need to go right now. Quit some read this time but I hope you enjoyed it.


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## DiscusQueen

Hi Ruurd.. Sounds like both you and your fish are going thru learning curves together:lol: :lol: .. but also sounds like success will come very soon. I think the divider idea is great and will probably help a lot.. And now every pair has a shot at raising babies... how great is that!!! Glad the discus and guianacara are getting along so well. My "fins" are crossed for you and your success.. Take care Sue


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## blairo1

As always, truly beautiful specimens and progress to reflect your high level of care. I'm sorry I haven't been around to watch them develop more!


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## M0oN

Just throwing in my two cents as I haven't had time to read through this whole thread - back in the mid 90's I made a living breeding discus, though.

80%+ water changes 2 hours after each feeding, a minimum of 3 feedings a day. Water temperatures at a consistent 86 - changing out water with water closer to 76 is fine and won't hurt the discus, but will induce spawning in mature candidates.

I fed mine a blended mixture of krill, market shrimp, trimmed beef heart, spirulina, and quality flake or pellet food all in a big gloppy chunk.

Normally I could get fry up to around 3-3.5" in roughly 3 months after they left their parents slime coat.

Looks like you're doing a good job


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## Dutch Dude

Thanks for comments 

Sue,....yes me and the fish go through a learning stage. Some things on breeding discus is diferent compared to other cichlids. Feeding from the slime coat is one. The problem is that fry act confused for the first day of free swimming and they realy got lost in the 50 gallon tank. I'm sure I'm close now to a successful spawn. Thanks for support Sue. How is your tank with the angels and OH going?

Blair,.....good to have you back on the board my friend and thanks for comment. :thumb:

Moon,.....thanks for your comment as well. Since the late 80's and early 90's some things have changed but the basics of keeping and breeding discus successfully seems to be the same. I do some things diferently. For example the feedings. Discus love the heavy foods like frozen bloodworms. They can be part of their diet but should not be main diet. So I also feed granules (Hikari Discus or Tetra Discus). It is not their favorite so I feed the granules in the morning and when when I'm just home from work. The fish are hungry and eager and will eat them very well. In the evening I feed frozen. Young fish I also feed beefheart mix to the size of at least 4 1/2 inch. The period they grow fast and need high protein and vitamin rich foods the most. When growth reduces I slowely switch to the same foods as the adults only more feedings a day. In normal settings I do 3 times a week abouth 70% water change. Right now I have very low stock levels so I can do with 2 times a week. I keep the temp at 83 and parameters are PH=8, GH=9 KH=4. Back in the 90's this was considered as not doable :wink: I have absolutely no problems to get my discus to spawn. Often they spawn the day after a large water change. The fish are still young and around 20 months of age. Pair 1 spawns every week for 2 months now. Pair 2 spawned abouth 5 times in that period but they seem to be bad parents and pair 3 spawned around 7 times. From what I know they normaly grow to 2 1/2 up to 3 inch in the first 3 months. So the growth rate you had in your fish is higher as average for sure! That has everything to do with clean water and good food. I know I be able to grow out 2 1/2 inch fish but I'm new to the period before. I probably mess up the first time but I defenately will do my very best to get the job done like it should be. I plan on start feeding bbs at day 5 of free swimming and start feeding chopped bloodworms and beefheart a week later and go from there. Plan is to have them eat beefheart when they need to go to a tank of their own. I will keep on feeding bbs for at least 6 weeks or so. Moon thanks for your info!


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## Dutch Dude

I promised some pics. Here some of the sponge filter. I used electrical tubing of 3/4 inch, drilled the bottom end and made a bend in it to get some more surface agitation. I cut blocks of filter foam from rest materials from the divider with is made of the same filter foam sheets. I stuffed the bottom end very firmly with filter foam but it would be better to put a cap on it or seal it with silicone. I stuffed an Eheim suction cup for 3/4 inch tubing in the back end. The shape of the suction cup makes it fit firmly. And there it was,.....a air lift foam filter. In the US they are used a lot and easy availeble but over here hard to get. I had to order one for around $22,-. That one was 4 inch in diameter and 3 inch high. The one I build my selves was around $12,- and 4 inch diameter and 10 inch high. Here some pics.

Pic 1 is the drilled tube.









Pic 2
One of the 5 sponges of 4 by 4 by 2 inch









Pic 3 
Fit the suction cup in the bottom end.









Pic 4
The filter in the tank running at 35 GPH with just a small Tetra tech air pump.


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## Dutch Dude

Soooo,...you already seen the divider :wink: Here a full tank shot.










The right compartment holds the new sponge filter and that filter first have to cycle before I add pair 1. The left side is the part with the original pump driven sponge filter from page 2 of this thread. I removed the pump and replaced it by an electrical tube with a bend and an air hose. Same method as the sponge filter.

Here a close up of the left part of the tank.










In the left compartment you see pair 3 cleaning the cone. Pair 3 spawned Saturday and this afternoon the eggs hatched. Unfortunately I didn't had the chance to level out the breeding cone and I hope not to much wigglers get lost underneath! This is the first time they spawn in a tank on their own and they are moved to the tank exactly a week ago. So I consider this spawn as a practice round as well. But I have to say,...so far so good!

Sunday late at the evening dad of pair 1 ate the last remaining fry at the age of 5 day's free swimming. This morning (I have summer vacation right now) I cleaned the tank, put the pump back on and did 2 water changes right after each other so the water is basicaly tapwater. I feed them some extra blood worms becouse they hardly feed when they have fry. After the feed and the water change they started their mating dance. This afternoon the female her egg tube was swollen with indicates a spawn and this evening they did. Right now they are fanning the eggs. I could not move them to the right compartment of the breeding tank becouse the filter was still cycling and they also seem to be in desperate for a spawn, haha! Well now I know what to do when the fry become free swimming in the big tank,.....stuff the filter intake, shut down the pump, lower water level,.....and luckily I leveled the spawning cones this morning during filling the tank.  I'm ready to go with this spawn! This will be exiting!


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## Dutch Dude

It has been almost a month since I did the last up-date so time to tell you folks abouth the progress I made with the discus.

I didn't up-date a lot basicaly becouse I was running the same circle over and over again. A pair spawned, eggs hatched and then things start to go wrong. A couple of times the wigglers get eaten, but also free swimming fry. Pair 1 (the good pair) had to be separated halfway during a spawn becouse dad suddenly becouse moody and even agresive towards mom. Later on I had to remove the tank divider becouse mom and dad were stressed becouse of the separation :roll: So far the best result was 5 day's of free swimming fry. Until 2 weeks ago!

Pair 3 spawned and 3 day's later pair 1 spawned again. Everything went like it should be except for some small quarrels of pair 3. Right now I have two batches of fry. The batch of pair 3 is at the 10th day of free swimming and start to look like fish. I estimate I have around 80 fry. Pair 1 takes care of a batch of 70 fry at the age of day 7 of free swimming. So if everything goes OK I will end up with a large batch of baby discus.

The growth of the fry is realy amazing! When I watch the fry in the evening and check on them the next morning I can see they have grown! Never seen something like that. The reason is that the fry keep on feeding of the highly nutritious discus secretion (also known as discus milk) 24/7 While normal fry rest during the night the baby discus keep on feeding. At day 5 of free swimming I introduced fresh hatched bbs. Only a few ate from them but at day 7 all of them eat bbs. In the next week I will need to feed more and more bbs and slowely introduce more foods like beefheart. I will wait with the beefheart until the end of next week so the fry are large enough to do a proper cleaning. Right now I only do water changes (blocked the hose with filter foam) becouse the fry are to small to vacuum the tank.


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## Dutch Dude




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## DeadFishFloating

Nice pics Ruurd. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

How dark do the parents go? I would like to see some before and after pics of the parents with eggs and fry, as opposed to how they appear when swimming in a school.


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## Isis24

Wow, that's amazing! I'm looking forward to more pictures as they grow! I hope things go well for you


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## edburress

Ruurd, thanks for the update. It looks like they are doing a great job this time! I'm glad that pair 1 and pair 3 both have fry, I'd love to see more pictures and hear how they develop. I'm looking forward to more updates :thumb:

Ed


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## apistomaster

DeadFishFloating said:


> Nice pics Ruurd. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
> 
> How dark do the parents go? I would like to see some before and after pics of the parents with eggs and fry, as opposed to how they appear when swimming in a school.


What you see in Ruurd's Discus is the normal brood colors for the Red Turquoise or wild Discus.
Some domestic stains cannot adopt these colors because they have been selected for a lack of melanocytes. Pairs of normal colored discus that do not adopt these brood colors usually eat their eggs and fry.
For those strains unable to change their colors, their fry sometimes experience more trouble imprinting on their parents. Still, enough do that the abnormally light/white strains still manage.
Behavioral cues and the Discus shape are also used by the fry to imprint and not changed colors alone.
Here is a young pair of Stendker Brilliant Turquoise in pre-spawn, normal color.









Here is the same pair with fry in brood color.


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## Dutch Dude

Hi there and thanks for looking and posting at this thread.

Peter,.....there is a significant change in coloration between happy discus in a group or discus in spawning colors. Larry added some nice pics of the Brilliant Turquoise that display the change well. If you compare the pics from page 2 of this post with the pics on this page you can also see the same change. Basically the fish darkens up from the back and sometimes display parts of their bars (happening with the female of pair 1). The bellies stay yellow but becouse the entire fish darkens up the yellow looks much stronger. The first pic I posted on Mon Aug 31 a few posts back displays it very well. On the pic below mom looks darker than she realy is. The reason is that she swims very close to the glass and this creates a shade.

Ed and Issis, thanks for your comment. I try to make more pics so you can see the development but one issue,....they are of poor qualety. It is hard to capture the small fry while moving around. They simply won't sit still and cheeeeese :wink: The other problem is that they are in bare bottom tanks witch created a strange fog like effect becouse of the light bouncing back from the walls and bottom. I'll try to add some more pics.

This week I lost abouth 25 fry of pair 1. All my fault! I did daily water changes on the tanks from the third day of free swimming. I started with minor 20% changes and increased to 60% right now. Because of the small size of the fry I tried to shift vacuming of the tank as much as posible forward. There was quit some algea on the bottom of the tank (algea it selves are harmles) and detritus. Good thing is that it contains micro organisms that are good food for the fry. Drawback is decaying of organic matter cousing poor water qualety. I wanted to vacuum the tank of pair 1 on Monday but becouse of lack on time I decided a small water change would be enough to shift the task to the next day. In the early morning of Tuesday everything looked normal and no problems at all. So I fed the parents with bloodworms and put in bbs for the fry. When I came home from work 9 hour later abouth 22 fry were dead on the tank floor. I checked the nitrates and they were a bit high at 12mg/liter but still within the limits. So I did the cleaning I planed and the same evening I lost 3 more fry that probably already have been weakened by what ever coused the deaths. Since then I didn't lost a single fry. So I lost abouth 25 fry (weakest at this stage) but I still have plenty left (around 50) with pair 1. Pair 3 do absolutely perfect. They are very good parents. I did notised the large spawn of pair 3 contains more fish with a set back in development. Some are way back in development while most already start to get the high body like their parent. I'm not sure if this is a genetic thing or if the origin is in the larger spawn. It does look like the fry that spend les time on feeding of the parents secretion seem to be the once with the set back. Some never attached to the parents like it should be. I did notised the fish that feed eagerly on bbs are growing faster. Would this be becouse of their eagerness on feeding or on the highly nutritious bbs? I don't know.

This week I started to introduce small slices of frozen beefheart. The parents don't like it to much (I already knew that) and prefer blood worms, pellets and artemis but the idea is that they basicaly chew it so the water will be filled with small floating particles. Some of the fry (20%) start feeding on the beefheart dust particles. I expect the number of fry who feed from the dust will increase in the next couple of day's.

So far so good and I'm left with around 120 fry. I have only the facility to grow out 75 max. to a size of 2 1/2 inch so I have plenty of fry. There will be weak fish and there will be fish with defects or major set backs. Those fish have to be culled. I have enough fry to still reach the limit of 75 fry for growing out.

I'll try to keep you posted and add some pics


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## Dutch Dude

Finaly some time to do a back up. I was very bussy this week doing lots of feeds and water changes along with a full time job and other obligations.

Previous post I wrote abouth the size diference in the group of fry. For a part those are coused by domesticated breeding. In a group of fish there will always be a group of poor shaped, deformed or hardly growing fish and every breeder will recognize this. I have to say the number of deformed fish is very low. I seen one with a short gill plate and one with a neurological issue (half of the head was black coused by neurological demage), a few that had wrong shaped tails but thats it. My main issue is the size. So I talked to my good friend Larry and right away he suspected a food issue. Now to all future discus breeders, be aware of the next!!!

If you visit discus dedicated web sites you see a lot of posts abouth people that have eggs, wigglers and also occasionally free swimming fry. Often that is how far people manage. I discovered there is a lack on info for fry of one week of free swimming up to a months or so. The info I found abouth feeding was that the fry would eat from the slime coat of the discus from day 1 or 2 of free swimming. At day 7 one should feed bbs and later on more foods like chopped bloodworms, crushed flakes and so on. So I start feeding 3 times a day some bbs from day 5. Some ate it but most preferred the secretion of the parents. By day 9 all fish start to feed from the bbs. I didn't knew diferent that the bbs were just extra on top of the secretion and the first step to get them to other foods. I was so wrong! From day 9 the bbs should have been the main food and the secretion the extra during the night and the periods inbetween the feedings. The stong active fish that were ahead in development gathered enough food to have a normal good growth but abouth half of the fry didn't received enough food so they get behind in growth. This coused fry that were to small. Larry told me abouth lots of feedings of bbs and Martha (Mmorris) at SD provided me with perfect info on fry growth rate and development along with pics. I immediately start feeding as much bbs as I could. Problem was breeding the bbs in larger quanteties. So I again got a lot of info from Larry, used google to locate bbs breeding units and so on. I could not get a hold on professional bbs hatcheries with the conical shaped glasses, so I looked for an alternative. I found a vase with a good shape and 2 liter volume that work great. Now I'm able to breed more bbs as the fish can eat. I feed as much as posible and hoped for fry to catch up. It looks like I partly succeed in that. still a large part of the fry was to small so I cull out all the ridiculously small fry to be left with good size and fry that might catch up. I also have had some losses on mainly the small fry. After the cull I end up with a total of 75 fry but I'm convinced there will be more losses of more fish to be culled. I only want to raise good qualety fry so I need to cull the fish that are behind in growth and development. Most likely I end up with 40 to 50 good fry,......if nothing bad happens. Thats still plenty and this gives me the chance to grow them out to a larger size so it will be easier to select some for my own future stock. I lost some fry and need to cull a lot but in the end I will end up with only the strongest and best fry from both batches.

In the last month I learned a awful lot abouth discus. Not only breeding but also behaviour and what they tolerate. Now I'm much better prepared for future spawns and I know what to do.

Now the fry,......I moved out the fry of pair 3 to the right compartment in the parents tank. They are now on their own in abouth 20 gallon size compartment. Mom and dad had a rough time raising the large first successful brood so they need some rest. I notised they prefer pellets over frozen. Thats good becouse the pellets provide plenty of fibers, vitamins and minerals to get them back in shape. Before they will spawn again they will need more frozen.

Friday I moved pair 1 to a 35 gallon tank. Dad wasn't interested in taking care of the fry any more and started to chase the female around. They can take a rest right now and it will take some time to get used to their new temporary home. Discus need at least 2 weeks to get used and to feel at home in a new tank so it will take a while before they will spawn again. I'm convinced pair 3 won't rest for long. The cloudiness on the pics is coused by bbs.

Pair 3 with fry










Male of pair 1 (stressed abouth the camera)


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## Isis24

So, how are those discus? and the fry? It's been awhile since we've heard! That last picture is priceless.


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## Dutch Dude

Hi there,

Yes it has been quit a while and in fact I stopped posting. Most of the people were probably fad up with the threat, haha!

I came across some issues along the way. I lost most of the fry from pair 3 and also lost a lot of fry from pair 1. Not sure what has been going on but it might have to do with worms and my inexperience raising baby discus. I lost most at 3 to 4 weeks of age and only lost a few afterwards. A week ago I discovered the fry had worms. I realy have know idea where they came from since the parents and the other fish don't show symptoms of worms. Out of precaution I treated all tanks. So I came along some issues in the discus breeding project. I have abouth 34 left now and still need to cull a few to small fish. I selected 15 of the best fish for my own future stock. They are 9 weeks of age and grown to a size of 2 inch. Thats a normal growth rate. I have 3 large once of 2 1/2 inch but I didn't selected them for my future stock becouse I think they are to much off from normal growth. They will probably grow out to become Jumbo discus. I'm not planning for dinner plate size discus but for nice shaped and good looking discus with a more natural body shape.

Here a pic of the fish.


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## DeadFishFloating

Well I love the updates, so keep them coming Ruurd.

It's a pity about the worm outbreak.

Also an apisto photo or 3 wouldn't hurt.


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## Isis24

I certainly would never be fed up of pictures! I love update posts.

It's really too bad about the worms, but 34 discus is still a lot! And it's your first time raising discus fry, right?

Thanks for the reply, I've been curious about your discus for weeks now!


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## Dutch Dude

Hi there,

Thanks for your comments and posting.

Right now I'm very bussy with the 6 tanks and especialy to keep the water qualety in the breeding tanks and grow out tank at a high level. I do water changes on daily routines so that takes up a lot of time I used to spend on forums. Besides that I didn't seen much responses in the last period so that why I stopped posting. Good to see there is still interest in this thread so I will continue.

It will take me some time to take pics especialy in the next week. So I promise some more but probably it will take a week or so. The pic of the fry tank looks pail but in the real the apisto's are much stronger colored. They are A. hongsloi II from the Czech Republic. I bought ill fish, maneged to cure them and breed them. The fish on the pic are the home bred fry and are now 2 years of age.

I was realy surprised to see worms in the discus fry. The more becouse non of the other fish or adult discus show signs of worms. Realy odd! I have 3 suspicions. A L168 peckoltia, live foods I fed 3 months ago, or the beefheart. The peckoltia died abouth 7 weeks or so ago, I don't feed live foods any more except for home hatched bbs and I stopped feeding the beefheart. I medicated the fish with pond meds (Colombo Lernex) and the poo is nice dark, chunky and looks like it should be. I will do an other treatment in a week to kill posible hatched worm eggs and an other treatment a week after that just to make sure. I plan on doing a follow up in 2 months. I'm confident I will control this issue. Right now the fish look realy great, have a good appetite and are very active.

I lost a lot of discus and started with 120 small fry out of 2 batches. After a lot of losses and culling I ended up with 34 and I think I will cull an other 4 becouse they are to much behind in growth. it is indeed my first batch I raise and I have learned an awful lot of it. Frustrating at some times but lots of fun most of the time.

Later,

Ruurd


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## PaulineMi

Thanks for taking the time with the updates. I like to hear about your learning experiences. It's helpful as I'm thinking about trying Discus in the future. Also the pictures following the growth of fry are very nice to see. :thumb:


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## Dutch Dude

Hi Pauline,

Thanks for posting in this threat and I hope the info you found it it was useful. Abouth learning,.....I learned an awful lot more abouth fish keeping since I own discus and especialy since I raise a spawn. Discus is defenately something special and best advice is read read read! But,.....don't belive everything what is being told. Some beliefs are based on wild fish and especialy Heckel discus (most dificult discus of all). Tank raised strains are not to dificult and if you can keep apisto's alive and happy you also should be able to keep discus alive and happy. Biggest issue is water qualety. For that you need to do lots of large water changes especialy on small young discus. On the other hand I never seen a fish heal as fast as a discus can do. I ripped fin is healed after 3 to 4 day's. I found discus just as dificult or easy as eartheaters only they are 3 times as much work (basicaly water changes). The fish will thank you for all the care and show their best colorations, feed from your hand and swim around your hand during cleanings. Sometimes I need to push them away to be able to clean the tank. One negative thing dough,....they are addicting 

A short up-date on the worm issue,.....I finaly found the source. I found dead worms on the tank floor. I discovered they were in the frozen bloodworms! I defrosted 2 cubes in a container and detected more worms. The other worm specie I detected are most likely from the artemis. Artemis is a salt water creature and so would the worm be. It is known marine/saltwater creatures wont thrive in fresh water and most of them will die. The one and only flatworm I have seen alive most likely came from live artemis I fed. The live artemis and the frozen once come from the same company. This all explains my worm issues. So after all there isn't much of a worm issue  I just started the second part of the worm treatment. I proceed out of precaution becouse I did feed live artemis and bloodworms a couple of months ago. I take extra precaution becouse the curent fry will be my future breeders.

I sold one of the pairs just over a week ago to create more room for the fry. Today I received an e-mail from the new owner and he reported the fish were feeding from his hand already and today they spawned abouth 120 eggs.

I will post new pics later on and also some of the A. hongsloi.

Ruurd


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## Dutch Dude




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## Will1983

just read this thread from start to finish very informative and interesting as *** got 4 juveniles alenqua-cobalt crosses on order for delivery just after christmas.

i cant wait to get them growing and hopefully try my hand at a spot of breeding.

*** bred livebearers, yellow labs and glowlight tetras in the past but never discus.


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## Dutch Dude

Hi Will,

Good to hear you found the thread informative. That was the goal for starting it and to take away some common myths around discus. Also,....it turned out not all breeders sell what they claim to sell.

A cobalt/alenquer cross sounds interesting! I'm not sure abouth the size of the tank but I would order a few more as you plan on keeping. In crossings of 2 very diferent color shades you can get fish that look a lot like mom, some look a lot like dad and most will be a mix. To be able to keep one color shade (best bets is the group that looks 50% mom /50 % dad) I recommend some extra. When the fish are grown to 4 1/2 inch to 5 inch you can select the best looking fish as future stock and sell of the remaining. All of this is only posible if you have a tank large enough and have the time to do a lot of water changing. The cobalt/alenquer cross sounds like an interesting one. I expect you will end up with RT or BT like fish. At least fish with the more wild looks.

If you want to do an atempt to breed discus you do need to start of with at least 6 of them. Male and female don't always become a pair. In a group of 6 fish often 1 pair forms. I was very lucky to get 3 pairs out of 6 fish. Breeding discus makes you understand the specie even better. I defenately gained in knowledge after the fish spawned successfully. Right now I have 3 groups of fry. The once from the last pic are grown to 3 1/2 inch average and 4 months of age, a group of 1 1/4 inch of 5 weeks old and a group of 1/3 inch of 12 day's old. The care you need to give to discus fry will be very diferent what you used to with other species. Read read read is the advice. Ooh and feel free to ask :wink:

Good luck and I like to see some pics of the fish later on (when they are acclimatised).


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## Will1983

hi Ruurd cheers for the reply,

when they arrive and have settled in i'll post some pics.
*** got a good well established filter but i dont want to push it to capacity by adding 6 discus
i like 4 will be the limit without making them uncomfortable.

i'll just keep my fingers crossed that i get a pair, i wont be to upset if i dont i'd just like to see the whole process.

good luck with your current 3 groups of fr

Willy


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## Dutch Dude

Hey Willy

If your tank is large enough for 4 adults (at least a 40 gallon breeder) is will be large enough for 6 youngsters of 4 1/2 inch as well. I like the situation where I have the possibility to chose the best for future stock. Realy something to consider. It might me more work (more water changes) for the first 3 to 5 months or so but I'm sure it will pay off. What is the actual size of your tank by the way?

My initial goal was a 75 with 6 nice alenquers and no intention on breeding them at all. :wink: People who read this thread know things turned out diferently :lol:

If you have questions feel free to contact me. Good luck with the fish and I love some pics later on. :thumb:


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## Will1983

hi ruurd the tank is a planted 180-190ltrs over filtered by approx 1.5 times and has CO2 injection.

current stock is 6 keyhole cichlids (when a pair forms they will be moved to a 70ltr tank i have waiting), 12 glowlight tetras (these spawn every few days without fail!) and a pair of bristlenoses.

i usually do a 20-30% water change every few days with a larger 40-50% water change at the weekend, i usually syphon the gravel every time and trim the plants.

despite the fairly frequent water changes i get a bit of slimy green algae growing but i think this is due to the photocycle being to long (i have recently reduced this so will await the results of the change)

here are a couple of pictures of the tank as it is now


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## Dutch Dude

Hi Willy,

Thanks for sharing the pics! It looks like a nice tank and the fish obviously feel well. Those are some very nice keyholes! If I understand you correctly they will be moved as soon as they pair up. No more keyholes in this tank right?

I do make some comments and suggestions becouse I foresee some issues. Let me start with the discus. They will be perfectly fine with the tetras. The tank is indeed to tight for 6 adults but if it comes to the size of the tank it is posible to grow out 6 to a size of 4 1/2 inch and select the best looking 4 for future stock. Only issue,....it is a planted tank. The benefit is that plants consume a lot of nitrates especialy when you use CO2. The drawback is that discus fry can become shy and hide in the plants and food particles get stuck inbetween plants. I'm surprised abouth the pea size gravel! In a planted tank I prefer sand or very fine gravel size 1/10 inch. The problem with pea size gravel is that food easely get stuck inbetween and gas (from decaying waste) builds up in the gravel. If you put two fingers in the substrate and push them until the botom of the tank, no gas bubbles should be released. I do know a method to keep at least the top layer clean.

One can clean the top layer of gravel by an easy and sufficient method. Look for a small plastic bottle like a water bottle or small lemonade bottle were a vacume hose tightly fit the opening. Now push the hose in or even seal it with silicone and cut the botom out of the bottle. Put the half bottle in the gravel and start vacuming. The deeper you put it in the gravel the deeper it will clean. If you cut back the bottle and the distance between the hose and the gravel becomes smaller you get more suction. Unfortunately this doesn't work inbetween the plants and thats were most of the waste is collected.

Cleaning regime is also an issue. Discus youngsters need A LOT of food and for that also have high waste levels especialy considering their poor metabolism. I do daily 70% water changes on my grow out tanks. In your situation it will kill the plants becouse all the nutrition will be drained from the tank and every time leaves will be damaged by the tapwater.

All togeather you need to make a lot of compromises! If you realy want to keep discus and you have to chose between plants and discus you should chose the discus. Plants are easy to replace, are cheaper and much more tolerant.

My advice if you want to keep the tank planted would be the next.
- Buy discus of at least 3 inch but preferable 4 inch or larger. Those are easier to raise. If you 
go for +4 inch you can select the fish you like the best right away.
- Temporarily reduce the number of plants and seriously cut back in size. This way you still 
have the plants you like and be able to grow them out later. Cleaning will be easier with only 
a few plants. Once the discus reach +5 inch you can start growing back the plants.
- Plant verts often contain nitrates and phosphates. Both are bad for discus. Your nitrate level 
should not increase 15 mg/liter! Iron frets are fine as long as you keep the GH low enough.
- Daily vacume of the substrate and cleaning the windows will be nessesary to keep the tank 
clean. I'm suggest at least 30% wc a day and 2 times a week 60%. This should not be to hard 
on you plants but does seriously reduce growth. Growing out the discus to a normal size 
should be first priority.
- Be aware CO2 levels need to be reduced becouse you also reduced the number of plants. 
Always keep the level below 20 mg/liter at any time regardless the beliefs of Tom Barr or 
Amano. Those beliefs are based on controlling plants and not based on fish. When you keep 
discus, the fish should be first priority.

Now I might have shocked you :lol: Buckle up becouse here the advice what *I *would do.
- Put the best and most valuable plants in the 70 liter just to keep them alive for 1/2 to 3/4 year. 
The Keyholes won't mind extra shelter but make sure there is an open aria for feeding and 
swimming.
- Empty the 190 liter completely. Everything out, proper cleaning so you have a clean and 
empty bare botom tank.
- Take out the CO2 and add an other canister with spray bar and take up the turn over rate to 
2 to 3 times.
- Now you can raise 6 discus of 2 inch or larger and do daily 70% water changes.
- Keep the best looking 4 fish when they reach 4 1/2 inch and grow those out to +5 inch
- Once the fish are +5 inch you can add a sand layer of maximum 1 inch deep and put in some 
easy plants like val and egeria densa that won't need a plant substrate and take the nutrition 
from the water. If you like a more chaleging plant you could add some Echornai azurea. They 
can do without plant substrate as well.
- You can add some branch like driftwood to make some more contrast and to give the fish 
some shelter.

How are you doing? Are you still on the chair or fallen off? :lol: At least think abouth it! Look at it as a challenge.


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