# I need advice (7 Year Mbuna Veteran) Long read.



## FloodXL (Feb 23, 2006)

So I have been somewhat reluctant to post this issue until now. I don't know why, I guess I just didn't know exactly what my question really would be to the group. Anyway, this is this situation:

I recently moved in July to an apartment where I transfered my Mbuna to a new 75 gallon tank (they were in a 75 in their original home) I have Metriaclima callainos (1) , Placidochromis johanni (1), Melanochromis Auratus (1), Labidochromis Hongi (1), and Psuedo. Acei (5), There is also a Tiger Botia loach in my tank but he has nothing to do with my issue (very peaceful).

The Callainos, Auratus and Johanni are the veterans of my tank and have been around for about 6 years. Last year I added the very young Psuedo Acei and Hongi in 2 groups of 6. The hongi killed each other off down to 1. The Acei were always peaceful and fine until 1 died right before I moved, and I don't know why.

When I initially moved, the tank was more peaceful than I had ever seen it, every fish was out and about almost all the time and there was really not much aggression. The Callainos has been known to be my most aggressive fish and has been responsible for several other Mbuna deaths in my old tank.

So the problem now, is that now that I am 4 months into my new place and the tank has been up the whole time. The Callainos and even the Hongi have started acting extremely aggressive to the Acei. To the point that you don't see them until the evening when the fish are all starting to calm down.

I hate seeing my tank this way, most of the time it looks like I have 2 fish, when in actuality I have 10 in there. This tank is understocked and I know that. But I feel like I am in a difficult position. I have a mixture of species now, so adding another Melanochromis, Metriaclima, Psuedo or Lab species is obviously frowned upon.

I know people believe in the overstock method, and when I started this tank I was very new to African cichlids and never "overstocked". 7 Years in and I realize this is what I must do if I want my tank to be what I want it to be and active.

So, now that you have read my novel, what would you do? Would you load the tank with a ton of fish? I know some may say to get rid of the aggressors, and that is part of the problem. I don't want to. My Callainos is a gorgeous fish that has earned his right to stay in my tank, and I love the Hongi (one of my favorite species in the world).

If I decide to load the tank, would I be ok doing so with many juveniles? This is mostly what my LFS carries for Mbuna, very young fish. And do I need to be very careful as to what I add? I hate to ask the generic question, but how many mbuna should you have in a 75 to have a good equilibrium to ease aggression?

Any insight here would help.

Thank you for reading.


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

Ah, difficult question. I personally have no stomach for aggression and thus have a peacock/hap tank with anybody who gets too out of line removed and returned to the LFS. So if it were me, this wouldn't be a difficult question. The nasty guys would go. But if you like the nasty guys, then you have no choice but to remove the victims. I don't have experience with the mbuna you mention, but I hate to see fish put in a situation where they are likely to be beat up or killed no matter what. So I guess I'd take out the acei and add more fish able to take care of themselves better . . .


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## FloodXL (Feb 23, 2006)

Thank you for your input.

That is the other problem though, I love the Acei. I am in a position mentally, where taking any of the fish out is out of the question. So that leaves adding a lot of fish as my solution. But what species should I add and how many?

I totally see why people do Peacock and Hap tanks now, Mbuna are tough. I love them, but they are tough.


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## frankeyser (Jul 29, 2008)

in the past i had success leveling out aggression by taking the most agressive fish out of the tank and putting them in 25 gallon buckets with a heater, airstone and small filter (bought at lowes for 10 bucks) for a week. I would rearange and clean the tank right after putting them into the buckets. then after a week i would add them back to the tank where all the other fish had established their territory. It toom me maybe five cycles of this till i had the aggression right where I wanted it. Now I just go with freindlier fish to avoid the hassel haha.


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## nick a (Apr 9, 2004)

Are there any female Acei's in the group of 5?


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## FloodXL (Feb 23, 2006)

I'm not sure. They all look the same to me. I have a suspicion that my LFS only sells males. Eggspots are not a certain determination correct? I am not sure I would know what a female acei looks like.

Any suggestions on what groups I should add? as I am really solid on just adding many fish of a few different species.


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## natalie559 (Dec 6, 2007)

Sounds to me that everything was fine until the acei started maturing. Now the lone species are seeing the acei males as a threat.

You need to decide whether you want breeding groups or an all male tank- having both causes the problems you are having. If you want breeding groups, choose 4 species and build your numbers.

If you want an all male tank then you need to vent your acei's and remove any females.


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## FloodXL (Feb 23, 2006)

Thanks Natalie.

In watching the tank, it seems that because they are so peaceful (Acei) they are just a pushover for the Callaino and really the rest of them.

My intent in getting the group was not at all to breed. I don't even want my fish to breed. I just love the look of large groups of fish all mingling together.

My thinking is that by adding other groups of different species, it will deter the attention from the acei and "spread the love".

I have tried changing this tank around and added a lot more rock. So they aren't really getting hurt, they never really were. It was just a constant harrasment. I check them every day, and they look very healthy with no fin tears or gashes or anything.

So let me ask you this just in educating myself. In an all male tank, the idea would be to just have 1 male of each species you put in the tank? Because having 4 or 5 males of 1 species sounds dangerous.

What about adding a group of Cynotilapia species? I love the white top haras anyway......if I could find some. Also, maybe a group of Labeotropheus as I don't have any of those.

I am cemented in the fact I don't want to remove anything, just add to hopefully correct this problem.


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## nick a (Apr 9, 2004)

An all male tank requires just that---any females of any species will possibly spark problems.

Not sure that I'd worry about so much about


> the lone species are seeing the acei males as a threat.


 as much as ALL the males are trying to breed with the females (and all the competetion that results from breeding behaviour).

natalie559's assesment is pretty solid. Add femmes for ALL types or remove all femmes and add more males of any type you like.


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## FloodXL (Feb 23, 2006)

Alright, so lets say I want to take what you are saying and add females. Where would you get them from to ensure they are females? My LFS has no idea what they are selling........

Order online?

Also, nobody seems to be in love with my theory of adding more groups to ease the problem.....

How many fish would you guys keep in a 75 gallon? My filtration is pretty good.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Add more of each species _that you already have_, and if you can't vent and the LFS can't vent, get sub adults or juveniles. They will serve as "overstocking" the tank, and as they mature you can pull the extra males as necessary.

IMO, 4 species is enough for a 75G tank.

And did you mean "Placidochromis" johanni in your initial post? If you meant "Melanochromis" johanni, then you've already got two Melanochromis in a relatively small tank (for this genus). That may be adding to your problems, as well.

It sounds like all your "singles" may be males, and the acei that is taking the beating might be females, or could even contain a "lucky" male.


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## FloodXL (Feb 23, 2006)

Yeah it's Placidochromis, it's a Hap. I had a pair of them before I knew what I was doing. He holds his own.

Yeah I don't know the sexes of the acei and that probably is part of the problem.

I don't understand why my hongi eliminated each other so young either. 6 down to 1.

I am sure I am coming off very confused, and I am. Mbuna seems so formulaic with this aggression.

And yes, I believe all my singles to be male as well. Almost certain of it.

off the wall question, what if I added 15 yellow labs? could that help? lol


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Those solo males are still going to behave like a street gang. 

_If_ you're determined to keep those guys _and_ don't want to go with an all male set up, the only logical answer I can see is finding them some girls.

The Yellow labs might distract them somewhat, but it sounds like those males are pretty much showing you what they are made of!

Overstocking isn't the answer to everything. I never intentionally overstock a tank.

In situations that are particularly male heavy, nothing is fool proof. Building on those groups is what I believe to be your best bet.


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## FloodXL (Feb 23, 2006)

Cichlidaholic, I think you have helped me tremendously in clearing up what needs to be done.

Now the difficult task of finding a bunch of females.

Have ever introduced a female species to an established male of 6 years? I can see this being potentially dangerous as well. But I am willing to give it a shot.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

As I said earlier, I would go with younger fish, not quite sexually mature. Larger mature males tend to ignore them in the "spawning potential" sense, and they kind of serve as "dithers" to disrupt the focus of aggression on the larger fish. (Just like a bunch of teenagers thrown in to the mix!) Then, they don't all mature at once, so it won't throw everyone into a frenzy in that respect.

I agree that adding fully mature females could be a problem.

My only suggestion other than what I've said would be to make sure you add more than one fish at a time!


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## FloodXL (Feb 23, 2006)

Thanks for the advice.

To correct earlier, it's Placidochromis Johnstoni, not johanni. My bad.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

FloodXL said:


> To correct earlier, it's Placidochromis Johnstoni, not johanni. My bad.


Thank you...I was so confused... :lol:


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## FloodXL (Feb 23, 2006)

Yeah I forget the names all the time......**** scientific names!!!!!!!!!! :lol:


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## moonlight (Feb 21, 2007)

This is a great topic! I think All of us at one point have gone out and grabed a handful of fish and I tip my hat to you that it all lasted 7 years with out a lot of problems. Like Kim said , I think females are the answer. It's funny how larger fish don't seem to see the smaller fish. Bump your numbers up and weed out the males as they come. Lucky for you the fish you have picked out have good looking females, so it's a win.


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## Floridagirl (Jan 10, 2008)

IMO, you need to decide on 4 species for a 75 gallon. Have 4-6 preferably.. 1 M 3-5 F. If you want different species, then do an all male tank. Some like Acei and Labs you can have more than 1 male but, the rule of thumb is to have them look as different as possible. Good Luck!


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## plow (Feb 19, 2008)

very interesting thread this. Good on ya FloodXL for posting, I have learnt something here I think and I am off to the shop to get some more female saulosis to cut the aggression one of my females is getting from a male zebra, a male saulosi and a male demasoni....

(yes i have a male saulosi and a male demasoni in my 135 gal, they do ok together suprising enough, but my 2 female saulosis are getting a hard time)

sorry to hijack your thread... good luck.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

plow said:


> (yes i have a male saulosi and a male demasoni in my 135 gal, they do ok together suprising enough, but my 2 female saulosis are getting a hard time)


You're also very likely to have hybrid fry from those female saulosi!


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## FloodXL (Feb 23, 2006)

Thank you all for taking such strong interest in my thread.

I have learned a lot since starting Malawi Cichlids many years ago, but it always seems there is still so much to learn about what works and what doesn't with these fish. I also have a planted aquarium with some of the standard community fish and it is not even close to the challenge these mbuna present. People claim that reefkeeping is the hardest thing to do in our hobby, and I would say that these fish (in my opinion) present an equal or even greater challenge to getting a tank "right".

I had been reluctant to post this topic on here before, because we see so many of the "will this fish combination work" type threads pop up in the Lake Malawi section, and I think that speaks volumes to how many of us have the same challenges. I have seen tanks on youtube and even on this site that seem to have "pulled it off" and those people have many mbuna in a decent size tank and you see little to no aggression, I think we are all striving for that.

So, I am glad I have had so many responses and have been able to spark a thread that others have questions about as well. This is what it's all about anyway right? Sharing our experiences and knowledge.

Compatibility seems to be a real conundrum with the mbuna. And I look at it like this: These fish live in a very vast lake with millions of other cichlids, and here we are trying to give them a decent life in a glass box, in my case a modest 75 gallon. I have learned that it's important to get it right from the beginning, which for me has been a long time ago.

I dream of owning a 240 gallon tank some day in the not too distant future, as I believe a tank of that size can provide adequate room for an array of mbuna species. But for now I am looking to make my 75 gallon the best I can.

Moonlight, I would say in reference to everything having gone well for me the last 7 years is not entirely true. I have been through quite a few fish that have died from aggression reasons. I can say I have never had a fish die from disease in my experience with Mbuna (knock on wood), NOT ONE!

Thanks guys, I would love to continue this conversation with everyone and hear more experiences, theories, etc.


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## plow (Feb 19, 2008)

cichlidaholic said:


> plow said:
> 
> 
> > (yes i have a male saulosi and a male demasoni in my 135 gal, they do ok together suprising enough, but my 2 female saulosis are getting a hard time)
> ...


yes very true.. you know your stuff. so who was the most likely father? I also had a male Lab Hongi to add to the mix... and "Bombas" was the result, a hybrid of saulosi and ??? (my 3 year old daughter decided the sole surviving fry was to be called Bombas, quite african sounding I thought, so it stuck and we've kept it)

dont know who the father is though, the fish is quite pale, with a yellowish rear and dorsal, with rather slight barring.

Sorry for hijacking again FloodXL


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## plow (Feb 19, 2008)

Hey Flood, Just to let you know since reading this thread I have been out to the LFS and purchased 3 more female saulosi's and 6 aceis.. my demasoni doesn't know who to chase anymore, at first it was this fish, then that fish and then back again and then those two at once and back to the original saulosi that it was harrassing but wait theres some more over there that need to be chased and after 30 minutes or so he tired and went and rested in a hole.

seems he's given up through the confusion... and thats what I understand to be "spreading the agression", before he had 2 female saulosis which were his favourites, now he has 5 to chase, plus the acies which he didn't like much either.

Hopefully this problem has gone away for me and my other female saulosi can have time to grow her tail back.

good luck. :thumb:


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## FloodXL (Feb 23, 2006)

Plow, that description of events was entertaining. :lol: , I could picture the whole scene.

Now, what if you got more female demasoni......wouldn't he just get crazy within his own species and leave the otheres alone?

Don't apologize for a hijack, I wanted this to be an open forum. It helps me learn.


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## plow (Feb 19, 2008)

FloodXL said:


> Now, what if you got more female demasoni......wouldn't he just get crazy within his own species and leave the otheres alone?


I would have thought so, but I think demasoni are hard to sex without venting, and have been told with demasoni you have either 1 OR more than 12.. so it became 1.

He hasn't been a problem at all until now actually, had him for about one year. Beautiful fish, probably the best looking fish I own.


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## FloodXL (Feb 23, 2006)

I believe it to be true. I had 2 demasoni, it was down to 1 within a couple months. The lone one lived a while and didn't really bother much. They are amazing.


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## Denny (Sep 27, 2008)

I have 64 fish in my 85g outdoor community tank. Call it the Muay Thai arena. There are 17 different species with a planted African driftwood setup. Have had no deaths over a year. My setup I designed with many arches and plants that allow free swimming and hiding and escape routes when any of them decide to bully another. The over crowding I have found cuts down on their aggression to each other. Because there are so many no one gets a chance to set any land claims. The large guys stop chasing the little ones because the setup blocks their chasing. One thing I have found out was to feed them grass shrimp once a week. It seems to allow them to do what they would in nature chase and hunt down food and takes the attention off the other fish in the tank. Hope this helps a little.


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## plow (Feb 19, 2008)

sounds like an interesting tank Denny,

64 fish in an 85gal though? Do you mean to say you have 64 mbuna? or is this a community tank with tetras etc??


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## Nutty4Mbunas (Mar 27, 2008)

I feel for you and your confusion. I had 3 cichlids in a 55 gal tank when I started; a rusty a cobalt blue and a red turned out all were male. Talk about aggresion in there. I couldnt see the fish since they were always hiding and the only time you knew they were in there was when they were fighting and the water was being splashed. I took a deep breath and took them to the LFS that specialized in cichlids and traded them. I was a little sad cause I had these fish for over 3 years. I got several new species and was happy to see that peace reigned in the tank and my hubby and I were able to enjoy the tank. Now the sad part. The store caught fire and when I went back to get some more fish I felt doubly guilty thinking that they may have died in the fire.
That is life I guess...I now enjoy my new fish and that is in the past and have only to look forward to having my acei fry that were born on 10/7 grow up and join the main tank! I hope you will continue to write in the forum and tell us how your tank progresses. :thumb:


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## FloodXL (Feb 23, 2006)

So, kind of funny. The week after I started this thread......things started to change. Which is really weird because this tank has pretty much been the same this entire time. So........

Like I said, I couldn't sex the acei. However, it appears that I have found my dominant male of this group. Sitting in my living room, I noticed early last week that the usual dominators in the tank were not around as usual and causing havok. I have been noticing that the acei have all been getting larger, but wow....the dominant male got big and is making himself look bigger. He has been out like the cobalt blue, arising from the rockwork with full fins extended and bold coloration.

His sudden new found bravery has allowed the others of the group to spend more time out in the open as well. Now I won't say "problem solved!" but things have definitely changed and gotten better.

So we will see how it goes, I plan to do nothing right now as far as any changes or additions. I have decided to throw a background on the tank and will be adding it on my next cleaning of the tank. I will then snap some photos. However, if you are interested in seeing my fish you can search FloodXL on youtube and will find some older vids of my tanks, including the acei at night (which I think is a pretty cool video).

Cheers for now!


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## plow (Feb 19, 2008)

hey good to hear things are sorting themselves out. :thumb:

nice you tube videos, cool to be able to put some faces to your fish after the discussions on this thread. Backgrounds always improve a tank imo... Would be cool to see the before and after videos.


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## FloodXL (Feb 23, 2006)

Thank you plow. I am still stunned by how gorgeous those acei are. When I start again with my huge tank someday, they will be the focus species I am thinking. Psuedo. Acei, Cyno. White Top Haras, Lab. Hongi....all some of my favorites. These are the reasons I keep cichlids!

As soon as the tank is in suitable form for photos, I will take some and post.


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## FloodXL (Feb 23, 2006)

So anyone who has been following this thread, I have an interesting update. I am checking out the tank a couple nights ago, just watching the fish as usual, when I notice something move out of the corner of my eye that was awful small. The acei have spawned......

So Monday night, I see one baby, big enough that he must have been around for a little bit. Last night I find another. They probably had many, and I am betting the hap took care of most of them.

But this is amazing, I have never had my cichlids breed. I was not trying for it at all and am not making any real attempt to save the fry. But it has been interesting watching them try and survive in the tank. The 2 confirmed fry have found some places to hide, but I realize it likely isn't going to last as the Hap is constantly on the prowl now, as if very aware of them. I took video on my cell and will post it tonight along with some new tank pictures with the background. I may start a new thread.

Cheers!


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## Dewdrop (Nov 20, 2007)

I just found this thread today :roll: . Congrats on the acei fry =D> 
I'm kinda surprised the cobalt let them breed. I have a red zebra male without any females of his own and he hates to see other fish try to breed and does everything he can to stop it :x 
I also have 3 acei. One male and 2 females. The male did grow faster and got bigger than the females (all 3 were bought at the same time and were the same small size). I saw one of the females drop a couple eggs one time from up high in the tank and the male caught and ate the eggs before they hit the ground :roll: . It's true that when they first mature and start out trying to breed neither sex always knows exactly what to do :lol: . That's been a few months ago and I haven't had any fry from them as of yet  . 
I hope you do get to have the bigger tank some day soon and I'm sure acei will be in your new tank too. Some people don't care for them to much (they are camera hogs and food hogs :lol: ) but those of us that do, really like them *ALOT*.
I don't know how to search UTube for your video  . Could you post a link to it? Looking forward to seeing it and pics of the tank with the new background :thumb: 
P.S. Even though your tank has calmed down, I'd still consider getting some juvies of the single male fish you have. More IS better


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Congratulations, FloodXL! :thumb:

But I have to ask...

You have kept mbuna for 7 years and this is the first spawn you've had????


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## Dewdrop (Nov 20, 2007)

:lol: Kim,
I hate to answer for FloodXL but can't resist  
I think the reason is because FloodXL had all males except for the hongi that killed each other off all but one and the newer acei that are giving fry now. See what the o.p. has to say for sure though.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

That would certainly explain that! :lol:

I just wish I could get mine to stop breeding for a month or two! :roll:


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## FloodXL (Feb 23, 2006)

Thanks for your replies guys.

Dewdrop is correct, I have likely had all males for the entire 7 years until the hongi and acei additions. I know that I had 1 other female at one time for sure but I can't remember the species name and I am at work, but she didn't last long.

I will try and get the new media up tonight but it might not be till late as I am going to try and get some photos when the actinics kick on. The tank takes on whole different life when that happens as they all seem to calm down and the acei start to graze the rocks more freely.

Thanks again for keeping interest in my thread!


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## plow (Feb 19, 2008)

awesome development...

7 years wihtout a spawn... holy smokes.

I think I went 7 days max :thumb: at first it was awesome, now its counting down till they are all gone, hoping my tank doesn't get too overcrowded with hybrids!! (**** demasoni cant control himself)

awesome flood... thats classic, 7 years without a spawn.. thats what mbunas do :lol:


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## FloodXL (Feb 23, 2006)

So I promised some new images with the black background. I would also like to note I made an addition yesterday of about 10 Hybrids of Estherae and Electric Blue Haps. A very interesting and quite beautiful cross that I got from someone I work with. I needed some Orange in my tank, They are all quite young and can be seen in a couple of the photos below:


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