# New tank bacteria question.



## Jowlz (Dec 19, 2008)

I'm finally getting around to putting an aquarium in our new house. I am just waiting for some equipment to arrive. I've read up pretty extensively on this site but can't find the answer to this question. My filters, 2 Fluval 405's will be here in a few hours. I would like to start cycling the tank. My question is this. My home has a deep water well. We have an extensive filtering system on it which includes a UV unit, softener, and mechanical filtration. Should I bypass the whole system when filling the tank? Or possibly turn the UV unit off? I am concerned with the availability of bacteria for cycling. I am also thinking that without the softener the water may be a little closer to the proper hardness for African Cichlids.

Thanks!


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## kb3781 (Jul 22, 2008)

We also have well water. I have 4 tanks set up in my house and have not had problems with cycling. We also have a pretty extensive filter system and a softener. 
When I have set up a new tank, usually around week 3 or 4 after putting the fish in, the water gets extremely cloudy. This lasts for about 2 weeks and then everything is crystal clear.

The nice thing about my well water is that it tests completely clean for chlorine or anything else. I have stopped even treating the water with AquaClear (or similar product) and it has been working out just fine. My water goes straight from the tap into the tank with no problem at all when I water change. I wouldn't recommend this to the average person, but I tested my tap well water first and it's about as pure as it gets.


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## trigger (Sep 6, 2002)

You should test the well water and see what the parameters are. Chance is, it may be better suited for your fish than after it has been processed...


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## Riceburner (Sep 3, 2008)

+1 especially the softener part. Straight well water would probably be better....but test.


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## Jowlz (Dec 19, 2008)

Thanks for the replies. I did bypass the whole sytem and filled the aquarium.


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## pbyrley (Jan 23, 2008)

kb3781 above said he puts straight well water into the tank for water changes. I'm curious how to get the temp up as my, and all well water I know of, is in the 60's F or below. I guess you can trickle it in but that would take a while for even a small tank's 20% or so change.

Currently, I carry in three 5 gal plastic buckets (one at a time) :wink: and put an old 200 Watt htr. in one. I fill the buckets at the outside hose faucet - it's too far to the kitchen sink. Oh, another thing is my water tests ph of 6.8 for about 24 hrs then tests ph 7.3. LFS says that is normal here. I think that's another reason to bring in the buckets of water and let 3 of them sit overnight The next day I move the heater to the next bucket and siphon the warm water into the tank. With 200W, the 2nd bucket is warm when I'm ready for it.

Is this all wrong, I'd love to do it easier.

thanks,
Paul


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## kb3781 (Jul 22, 2008)

pbyrley:
Sorry, I didn't mean to impy straight from the well itself. We have well water and I don't treat it in anyway. I take it straight from the faucet. It does still go through the water heater and filter system that we have for our tap water so I do make sure I get it to the correct temperature first.


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## alicem (Jul 26, 2007)

Since Jowlz has found a solution, I hope this doesn't interfere with the thread and if it does, 
Jowlz, please forgive me, but I had to respond to pbyrley's question:


pbyrley said:


> Currently, I carry in three 5 gal plastic buckets (one at a time) and put an old 200 Watt htr. in one. I fill the buckets at the outside hose faucet - it's too far to the kitchen sink. Oh, another thing is my water tests ph of 6.8 for about 24 hrs then tests ph 7.3. LFS says that is normal here. I think that's another reason to bring in the buckets of water and let 3 of them sit overnight The next day I move the heater to the next bucket and siphon the warm water into the tank. With 200W, the 2nd bucket is warm when I'm ready for it.
> 
> Is this all wrong, I'd love to do it easier.


I have a similar situation with pH rising over night.
You aren't wrong, but I think you could make it easier on yourself.  
Here are some things to think about, see if any of it will help you:

Your pH rises due to off gassing of co2. (Some folks say "gas off" but somehow I see it as "off gas")
If you put a bubbler/air pump in the water it may off gas faster. Try it and see if the air pump speeds up the process. 
You don't _have to _use an air stone, but if you want to, you could.

Can you run a potable (drinking water) water hose from the outside faucet to fill your "prep water holding" container situated inside your house/garage?
Many people use garden hoses, but I don't trust them. (personal preference)

Maybe you could come up with a larger holding container for the water to be prepped in (heated and off gas).
Then use a pond/fountain pump hooked up to your hose to get the water from the holding container into your tank.
Saves you from lifting those buckets. Remember, it's not good to let heavy buckets rest on the top of the tank while pouring them in.

If not then, can you put the buckets, or other holding container you come up with, on a wheeled device to roll it into position?
You may be a very strong person, but tote-ing 5 gallon buckets will get you down eventually. 
We don't want "water change burn out", now do we. :wink:
hth,


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## Jowlz (Dec 19, 2008)

The info totally doesn't interfere.. I actually hadn't given my water changes alot of thought. I would think once the tank has cycled it would be ok to fill from the tap. Am I wrong in assuming that? I am still waiting for any signs of nitrite in my tank. It's been 4 days with the ammonia, and my wife reports no color change at all in the nitrites. I am still waiting for the heaters to arrive. The room is about 72 degrees. I suspect the low temperature is an issue. I will be home on saturday and will get the rest of the gear set up then.


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## alicem (Jul 26, 2007)

> I would think once the tank has cycled it would be ok to fill from the tap. Am I wrong in assuming that?


Depends. You have an extensive filtering system on your house tap water. 
In order to fill from the tap, the tank and tap should have the same GH and KH-(which affects pH) Have you tested each in the tank and at the tap?
With use of a water softener, your GH will probably read 0. That's an easy fix, tho.

You may be able to make adjustments to KH and GH to the incomming water in the tank. Better see if those people, that do it that way, will respond. 
Otherwise do the tests and post the results along with another question to start them on that thread. :thumb: We've kind of wandered from your origional subject line.

If that checks out, be sure to get the refill temp as close to the tank temp as possible. 
Some of the "long timers"  use the "feels like" method with a hand or arm. They know their tank that well and each tank can be different.



> I am still waiting for any signs of nitrite in my tank. It's been 4 days with the ammonia, and my wife reports no color change at all in the nitrites.


If you didn't use seeded media from an exhisting tank it will take some time. 
Read some posts by Prov356. He's our resident cycling expert, in my opinion.  
Keep the faith, it'll happen.


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## Jowlz (Dec 19, 2008)

Thanks for the excellent info. I will search some more posts. I didn't have anything to seed the filter with. I asked at my LFS, but no dice on getting any used media. Historically, I have always done a fish cycle, so this is my first go at fishless. Hopefully, I will see some bacterial activity in the near future


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## pbyrley (Jan 23, 2008)

Sorry Jowlz, I did butt into your thread-
I just blurted out after I was reading about everybody filling with their well water. Anyhow, I hope your tank works out well for you.
Alicem and kb3781, thanks for your kind and informative responses. I now don't feel as though everyone else had a perfect solution. I have a sturdy shelf built above the tanks which is able to support one of the filled 5 gal buckets. When I start to replace water, I put the warm water bucket on the shelf and siphon away. I do have a 3 step ladder to get the bucket to the shelf.

I like the idea of buying a pool pump. I will look at them in Lowes next time I'm there.

Thank you all so much

Paul


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I am still waiting for any signs of nitrite in my tank. It's been 4 days with the ammonia, and my wife reports no color change at all in the nitrites.


Without seeded media, it takes about 7-10 days. It's easy to tell when nitrite will start to rise because 
ammonia will be dropping. I don't see any details on how much ammonia you're adding or if it's 
starting to drop. But anyway, the ammonia level drops as it's converted to nitrite, so that's when you'll 
see nitrite rising. Without seeded media you could be looking at up to 6 weeks total cycling time. Just 
warning you.  Once nitrite rises, it may take another 3 weeks to drop. That's the phase people get 
impatient with and become convinced something is wrong. Wait it out. Do water changes if you'd like, 
and adjust temp if you'd like, but it'll still take 4-6 weeks IME. Water changes and temp won't have a 
significant affect on things, if any. Cutting ammonia is cheating.  If you want to use less ammonia, 
do that from the start. No reason to push more in the beginning. You can't force things.

How much ammonia are you using (in ppm), and what are you going to stock with initially?

Don't know that I'd call myself a resident expert alicem,  but glad to help. If anyone has specific questions, 
feel free to PM me.


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## Jowlz (Dec 19, 2008)

I am very patient. I also still haven't gotten all the equipment for the tank, so am not in a hurry. I'm still waiting on parts for my wet/dry sump. I plan on using a 404 Fluval and the wet/dry. The Fluval is running on the tank now.

My wife is actually dealing with the tank (6 ft 125 gal), as I am traveling. She put in a "capful" of ammonia to start. It read about 5ppm. After the four day wait I had her test for nitrite presence. None. She added another "capful". I assumed that with no nitrite present, the cycle hasn't started. I will have her test ammonia and nitrite again tonight.

I'll look around more for some used filter media. My LFS was a no go. I'm also a little shy of using media from a fish store tank. I work out of Nashville, TN and have to drive home, Binghampton NY area, this Friday-Saturday. I can either drive the 40/81 corridor up through Virginia or 65/71/76/80 corridor up through Ohio. I will place an ad in the trading post and see if I can find a source for used filter pad, bio-balls or some crushed coral.

As for stocking, that is why I decided on the fishless cycle. I was hoping to get the tank cycled and capable of a decent bioload, as I plan on buying from Atlantis Fish Hatchery (about an hour from my house), That Fish Place 2+ hours or a breeder on aquabid. I want to do a P. Saulosi species only tank or P. Saulosi with one other contrasting species maybe C. Afra "Cobue". I plan on 1m/5f saulosi to start. Then add 1m/5f Cobue sometime later. I still need to ask around a little about that combo. I have kept "Assorted African Cichlids" in the past, and don't want to go the hybrid route again.

Thanks for the info. I have read quite a few of your posts about cycling. Excellent info.


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## alicem (Jul 26, 2007)

Yep, Tim's the man!
Oh, btw, I would be concerned using media from a LFS because of my recient experience.
I just bought some botia striata from my LFS to add to my 90G, but I put them in a Q tank first.
Glad I did, 'cause, day 4, they've got ick. Because I used the Q tank I can deal with it there and not in my stocked 90G.
IMO, you are better off being patient and do what you are doing.
hth,


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Glad to help and sounds like you've got a good handle on it. I'd test the ammonia again too because if 
it hadn't started to drop and another 5ppm was added, it could be extremely high.

You can cycle with 3ppm and add a pretty good initial load. I'd only go to 5ppm if I was planning to fully 
stock with adults. Even then, 3ppm is probably fine, but 5ppm adds a safety factor. Whatever level you 
decide, have your wife simply maintain at that level, meaning only add enough every 24 hours to bring it 
back up to 3ppm. If it hasn't dropped yet, then don't add more or you could overdose it. Not sure at 
what level, but I've read where it's possible to add so much that it inhibits the nitrifying bacteria. At the 
very least, it'll drive nitrite off the chart when all that ammonia is finally converted.

Since the bacteria multiply exponentially, it can seem as if nothing is happening, but then all of a sudden
ammonia drops. Nitrite goes the same way. Some even have a term for it and think the cycle has 
'stalled'. The nitrogen cycle doesn't really stall, just seems that way sometimes when you're eager to 
get fish in the tank. 

Agree with alicem. I'd only get used media from a trusted friend with a known disease free tank.


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## Jowlz (Dec 19, 2008)

Ok. Will do. Since I don't have any friends with tanks, do you think I should skip looking for media from a fish supplier or other hobbyist, and just let the fishless cycle run its course?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Jowlz said:


> Ok. Will do. Since I don't have any friends with tanks, do you think I should skip looking for media from a fish supplier or other hobbyist, and just let the fishless cycle run its course?


Yes, you only have to do this once, then you've always got your own media to start up any other tanks. 
The last thing you need is to start out with a disease outbreak.


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## Jowlz (Dec 19, 2008)

Ok... My wife tested again tonight. Ammonia was at 1 ppm. Nitrite showing .25. PH showing 8.2. I had her add another "capful" of ammonia. Looks like I am on my way.... She also reminded me that it was last Wednesday that she initially put the ammonia in. So it's been a week....


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## pbyrley (Jan 23, 2008)

prov356, are you always sure that the proper bacteria will come drifting by into a tank of clean water with ammonia to start multiplying? Isn't it possible that someone could wait a loooooong time or is it that there are just lots of that kind of bacteria everywhere. (I'm a retired engineer and always curious)
Paul


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

pbyrley said:


> prov356, are you always sure that the proper bacteria will come drifting by into a tank of clean water with ammonia to start multiplying? Isn't it possible that someone could wait a loooooong time or is it that there are just lots of that kind of bacteria everywhere. (I'm a retired engineer and always curious)
> Paul


Yes, happens every time. You don't need to get/find/add the proper bacteria, just an ammonia source. 
So, apparently these bacteria are everywhere. Set up 100 clean tanks and just add ammonia, and 
they'll all cycle in about the same time. It's a mystery to me too how it happens, but it does. I'm not 
sure specifically how the tank is initially seeded with these bacteria. I had heard once that they were on 
the fish that are initially added, but then what about fishless cycling? They must just be everywhere. 
Maybe a microbiologist can weigh in.


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## Jowlz (Dec 19, 2008)

Just an update. I'm now at the 13 day mark. Ammonia is being dealt with well. Every morning I add about 20ml of ammonia. Just before adding the ammonia the tank reads .25 ppm. The 20ml brings it up to 3 ppm. So the tank is dealing with 2.75 +- ppm per day. Nitrite is present reading 2 ppm. I havent tested it night and day, but it seems to be staying steady. Nitrate is up to 20 ppm.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Sounds good. I wouldn't test nitrates yet, since most kits actually give the result of nitrite+nitrate, so it's 
not going to be meaningful yet. There's time to deal with that at the end.

This is the part that takes a long time, by the way. I've seen it take 21 days or so for nitrite to drop.

Testing once per day before adding ammonia is all you need to do. Testing more often is interesting, 
but don' t push more ammonia at 12 hours, if it's reading 0. Just stick to the 24 hour routine.


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## pbyrley (Jan 23, 2008)

Alicem, thanks again for your info and suggestions. I bought a 27 gal extra strong storage tub from Lowes and have it on my super strong shop table. I filled it with a python hooked to the garden hose (not potable  but I'll chance it for now - not next summer. The table has wheels that lock. With the tub on the table, I can buy a smaller/cheaper pool pump. It took at least 24 hrs to heat the 25 or so gals to 80 deg with a 200w and a 100w heater. (The garage is my fish room where it's 48-52 these nights.) I checked pH the first night and got 6.8. 48 hs later pH is 7.2 and I think that is stable. I had to order a new KH/GH kit as mine was 5 yrs old and GH didn't tell anything.

Thanks again


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## Jowlz (Dec 19, 2008)

Just an update. After following the fishless cycle guidelines, and Prov356's advice everything is going perfectly. The whole process took just about a month. I added 12 P. Saulosi and all are doing well. No mini-cycle. Ammonia stayed flat. Nitrites flat and Nitrates climb normally. Thanks again to everyone for all their help.


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