# 40G Mbuna mix



## Murkin (Jan 5, 2012)

I have a 40G breeder with 3 mainganos (recently added, about 2.5" right now), 4 yellow labs (about 2"), 3 albino labs (2"), 3 full grown tiger barbs (who constantly squabble among themselves), 1 male kribensis (the female died after a tank upgrade), 1 male rainbow shark (3.5 - 4" right now), 1 yoyo loach, and 1 german blue ram at about 2")

now the labs and the rest of the fish have lived together for aout 6 months with no issues, but the maingainos were added about 4 days ago. Two of them seem to be male (even though i asked the guy at the lfs to try and pick 2 females) but all 3 seem to get constantly harrassed by the ram. *** seen the dominant (bigger and darker) maingano stand up for itself but the ram seems to be relentless and theyve yet to settle the score due to the rainbow shark breaking up the party (he is by far king of the tank right now)

my question is two part:

should i be worried about this set up over the long run, and will the ram eventually get put in his place and then some by the mainganos? i think i may already know the answers but need some confirmation as to which fish i should probably remove and take back to the lfs first. so far there seems to be a delicate pecking order established with the rainbow shark at the top, followed by the biggest yellow lab and then the blue ram. the filter is rated for 70g so i am not worried about the stocking issue as i do weely 40% water changes.


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## brinkles (Jan 30, 2011)

When the maingano hit maturity (soon), they'll probably dominate everything else in the tank. I think they'll be trouble long term in a 40 breeder.


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## Murkin (Jan 5, 2012)

i dont really mind if they dominate, i got them for that purpose because the rainbow shark is stressing everything else out. as long as they dont end up killing anything...


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Murkin said:


> should i be worried about this set up over the long run?


Yes. Mainganos are better in a 75G rectangle stocked at 1m:7f because of their aggression.



Murkin said:


> will the ram eventually get put in his place and then some by the mainganos?


I don't know rams, but I believe they have very different requirements from Africans. I'd remove the maingano, the ram and the shark.

If a fish dominates a tank too much, worse case scenario is the other fish will not be allowed to swim around, sustain injuries, become stressed and ill, and die, infecting the whole tank. So, Maingano are not a good fit for a 36" tank.


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## Murkin (Jan 5, 2012)

hmm, i will try them and see what happens. i appreciate the advice, but so far they seem like the most docile fish in the tank. could be because the rainbow shark is keeping them in check and weary of asserting themselves, and it also seems like the only aggression (and even that is half-hearted) is among themselves.

i will post updates if things change.


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## jaymore1 (Dec 18, 2010)

What is your ph at? I ask because africans need a high ph 8-9 where as the ram needs alot lower ph 5-6.


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## Murkin (Jan 5, 2012)

ph is around 7.5 but everyone is fine as their colours are not faded at all and they all seem pretty lively. the shark also likes lower ph but he is dark black with bright orange fins. he's usually my indicator


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## Murkin (Jan 5, 2012)

here are some photos:










Ram chasing Maingano:









and again:


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

I await your post in the illness forum...best of luck however.


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## Murkin (Jan 5, 2012)

haha why who looks ill?


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## malady (Nov 20, 2011)

Murkin said:


> haha why who looks ill?


hes commenting on the future

because the stock list you have right now will cause problems later on when the fish grow, It might be disheartening but keep researching and finding a happy medium on a stock list.


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## Murkin (Jan 5, 2012)

k so had to take the little ram back to the lfs. poor guy got beat up pretty bad (missing a few fins and lower lip slightly busted up) by the dominant male maingano that he was previously chasing around. he's fine but even after i separated him from the rest with a pane of glass he kept trying to get at the maingano. got a lot of respect for this little guy now after that. he runs away from the shark even tough he never hurt him, but wouldnt give in to the maingano... i didnt see the fight happen, but i can only assume it was the maingano because he was the only fish murderously swimming at the pane of glass trying to get at the ram with all his fins flared after the separation. thankfully he seems fine at the fish store, swimming around with the larger blue rams in their tank, so i ope he's much happier now.

the rest of the tank seems to have established a pecking order after i added more rocks, but the shark still throws fits from time to time and chases everyone in his vicinity but only when there is a scuffle (which is usually between the tiger barbs with all 7 labs and 3 mainganos swarming around as if it was a schoolyard fight haha) no injuries at all though and no one is stressed out. the mainganos and labs started digging neat little burrows and protect their territories but without any real aggression.


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## Fatal (Jan 15, 2012)

jaymore1 said:


> What is your ph at? I ask because africans need a high ph 8-9 where as the ram needs alot lower ph 5-6.


Rams like their PH to be between 5 and 7.5. So I'm sure they will be ok.


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## Murkin (Jan 5, 2012)

Ok, so i have made some changes now. Not because of illness/deaths, but because it was the right thing to do. Here is my stock list for the 40g now:

M Cyaneorhabdos x4 (1m:3f) (2")
L Caeurelus x4 (no idea as to sex yet) (2.5")
L Chisumulae x2 (same as yellow labs) (2.5)
P Estherae red x2 (juvies, 1" or less)
Tiger Barbs x 5

Lots of rockwork, 70g rated filter, weekly 30-40% water changes.

Any feedback? Am i overstocked or can i add anything else? I was thinking maybe a solo demasoni?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You are overstocked. I'd remove the maingano and the estherae. Instead I would stock 1m:4f of either the yellow labs or the chisumulae. Or you could try them together and see how it goes, but definitely 1m:4f...with a pair the male is likely to kill the female.


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## Murkin (Jan 5, 2012)

Say that the mainganos are the ones i want to keep the most. For now they are small enough that they should be ok for another couple of months. What would you recommend longer term?


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

DJRansome said:


> Mainganos are better in a 75G rectangle stocked at 1m:7f because of their aggression.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Murkin said:


> For now they are small enough that they should be ok for another couple of months. What would you recommend longer term?


Well 2" is pretty mature for maingano. Are you saying in 2 months you will maybe put the maingano in the 75G and want suggestions for what should remain in the 40G?

I'd do the maingano, estherae and chisumulae in the 75G and the labs in the 40G.


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## Murkin (Jan 5, 2012)

Unfortunately there wont be a 75g anytime soon, as i live in a condo and it would be too big for my living room. Maybe a 55 would be an option, but not anytime soon. That being said, everywhere i read it says mainganos can be kept in smaller tanks (even smaller than my 40g).

They are really not that aggressive, the male only chases the females around feeding time and never too violently. I would say my biggest yellow lab (close to 3") runs the show and is more aggressive than the male maingano spreading his/her aggression around to everyone including the female mainganos. The male maingano only chases the females, and like i said, not all the time, and not as violently as the yellow lab does his/her chasing.

If things start going south as they grow, i would rather remove all but the mainganos and maybe yellow labs/chisumulae. If i do that, should i add any more maingano females? So the stocking list could look like this:

Maingano 1m:5f
Yellow labs and chisumulae 1m:4f

Also, if i dont care about breeding them, can i just go all male and have only 1 male maingano in the 40g?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Murkin said:


> everywhere i read it says mainganos can be kept in smaller tanks (even smaller than my 40g)


Interesting. I've never heard that. Maybe the other sources can advise you on how they were able to make that work. :thumb:


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## metro6775 (Sep 16, 2008)

I am interested to see what is going to happen to that beautiful ram when all your fish mature.


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## kenko (Jan 19, 2012)

That little ram should be OK - as it was taken back to the LFS...

As for maingano in a smaller tank - sure. There was one source online I saw that said you could "probably keep 1:3 in a heavily furnished 30." - But if you really wanted to keep the mainganos, then that would and should be it. And you do need to provide plenty of rocks and hiding places. 
In your 40, a 1:5 would be good and leave it as that. 
What about adding some synodontis petricola and a couple BN plecos as tankmates?

Please learn from the community's experience - as what may work today may not work tomorrow. In most cases, it's just a matter of time.


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## Murkin (Jan 5, 2012)

Thanks kenko, are you saying take everything out but the mainganos, or dont add anything else as is now? Its been a month since the rainbow shark was taken out, and everything is going great. Most likely because there are a lot of rocks and hiding spots. No more injuries or serious fights. The male mainagno still hasnt asserted himself over the dominant yellow lab (largest). I already have a pleco, would the catfish you suggested hold its own against the rest of the crowd?


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## kenko (Jan 19, 2012)

Sounds like what you have is working now, and that's great. Just watch it if things escalate. But you never know, all could be perfectly fine from here on out...and that's sometimes the fun (or not) of fish keeping - all the little nuances.

The synodontis will certainly hold their own. They are tough, as long as a little 1-inch fish is not introduced with 3 or 4 inchers - but that should be common sense.


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## Murkin (Jan 5, 2012)

Yup, everything seems a lot calmer now. There is chasing and some fighting but looks like just power struggles within the species (yellow labs mostly squaring off) and no fin damage on anyone. Male maingano is not overly aggressive with his 3 females and theyre digging all sorts of burrows. Also, everyone looks healthy and active 

Thanks for all the advice everyone!

Here are some pics. Feedback is much appreciated!

You can see how they dug out sand on the right side (last pic). There are tunnels all throughout the tank, and both the left and right side rock formations now have mini sand dunes.

"Bully" the boss of the tank:









Left rock formation with Lab. Chisumulae male:









Left side with Red Zebra:









Left side with one of the Maingano female









whole tank:


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## BullyBuddies (Jan 4, 2012)

Never seen the bamboo in a tank, how long you had it?


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## Murkin (Jan 5, 2012)

About a year and a half now. Its been growing too. Its about twice the size it was when i put it in.


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## Murkin (Jan 5, 2012)

Ok, so I have to revive this because it's been a while, and there have been some developments that I feel i should share, since they tend to fly in the face of the so-called "conventional wisdom" I have been reading on here. Here is my stock list, and keep in mind this is a 40G (I am listing them in order of perceived aggression):

Ps. Elongatus Mpanga (3") 1m
Ps. Maingano 1m(4"):2f(3.5")
Red Zebra: 1m(4.5"):1f(4")
Yellow Labs (4"): 2m:3f
Lab Chisumulae (4"): 1m:1f
Juli Ornatus (2") sex unknown
Tiger Barbs (2") x3 
Gold Barbs (2") x2
Syno Multi catfish (3")

Now while I am willing to bet that 99% of "experts" would say this is a terrible stock list, here are a few facts: there are now 4 fry swimming around the tank, 3 maingano, and 1 red zebra (they are roughly 2.5 months old). I believe this is the final fry count, as the rest probably got eaten, but these guys are now too large to fit in anyone's mouth I would think, and are acting pretty cheeky around feeding time (about .75"). One Maingano female, the red zebra female, and a yellow lab female are now holding as well. I have not had a single death or injury since the last time I posted, right around the time I added the Mpanga. The male Maingano and male Red Zebra are both dominant, and seem to stay out of each other's way for the most part. The Mpanga mostly holds his ground but gets sometimes chased away by the Maingano. Aggression has really not been an issue at all, and there seem to be enough hiding places for the fry to not get bothered by anyone (at feeding time, they come out, but get ignored by the adults). Granted I have lots of rocks and hiding places, as well as a 70G-rated dual filter, and I do 40% water changes about once a week. I've had this tank for over a year and a half now, almost everything in my stock list (except the mpanga and the ornatus) are from the original set-up, when they were all less than 2".

Just thought I'd stirr the pot a little, since conventional wisdom would have you believe this type of set-up would be destined to fail. Mainly referring to the Maingano and Zebras not being happy enough as adults in a 40G. Based on my experience, that is simply not true. I am sure the Mpanga will eventually grow to dominate the tank, but I will deal with that when the time comes. So far, everyone is happy and spawning like crazy...


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## jaymore1 (Dec 18, 2010)

Its gonna take a yr to yr and a half to see the real result of the tank. Alot of things work out fine at first then all of sudden to start having fish hiding in corners and then deaths in the tank.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Murkin, enjoy your tank!


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## Storiwyr (Apr 24, 2012)

As a statistician, I can tell you that your experience is not enough to conclude something is 'simply not true'. A sample size of one is not sufficient to decide that everyone else's experience is wrong. You may prove an exception to the rule, but please be careful in what you conclude from your individual experience with a mix that is only half a year old.  If it works for you long term, that's awesome. However, the point of a forum like this is education and assisting each other. You were recommended steps to take to give you the HIGHEST CHANCE of a successful, long term set-up. That advice doesn't change based on the fact that in one case, it is working only six months later.


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## Murkin (Jan 5, 2012)

update:

Ps. Elongatus Mpanga (3") 1m (traded in for Demasoni)
Ps. Maingano 1m(4"):2f(3.5")
Red Zebra: 1m(4.5"):1f(4") (traded in for Demasoni)
Yellow Labs (4"): 2m:3f (dom male traded in for Demasoni)
Lab Chisumulae (4"): 1m:1f (traded in for Demasoni)
Juli Ornatus (2") sex unknown (traded in for Demasoni)
Tiger Barbs (2") x3 
Gold Barbs (2") x2
Syno Multi catfish (3") (traded in for Demasoni)

So I decided that since some of these guys were getting too large and I nearly had to do 2x weekly water changes at one point, I would put some more 36x18 footprint-appropriate Mbuna in there. I basically traded the biggest of my fish (except the Maingano) in to a LFS for 16x Demasoni. This experiment has been an utter failure, and I sincerely regret it. Less than 5 months later I was left with 7 of them, with 2 males still sorting it out for who's more dominant. Never Demasoni again.

Anyway, I traded what was left of the Demasoni stock for Saulosi, and am hoping that this will be a more docile group. So much for Demasoni being a good fit for a small tank and Mainganos not. My experience has been a loud, resounding, complete opposite of what "common wisdom" would have you believe.


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