# Something I found sbout loaches



## christopherhicks (Jun 18, 2007)

*Just thought this might be something you might want to read*









A question that is asked time and again on the Loach forum is â€œAre loaches suitable for keeping with Malawi cichlids?â€


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## Barbie (Feb 13, 2003)

So I suppose just "forcing" both types of fish to live in tap water that doesn't actually match either set of "natural" conditions is unethical? Personally, the filters I use cause quite a bit of flow in the aquarium, as well as zero ammonia, nitrite, and sufficient oxygen. Frequent water changes maintain stable parameters, rather than the fluctuations that fish living in blackwater conditions would be adjusting to as they migrate. Is this more stressful or less? I know that south american blackwater fish actually consider the fluctuations as a trigger to spawn. They are visibly stressed when going through a rainy season, yet it leads to spawning behavior. Is it cruel to do it? Or to not?

I have a big group of clown loaches in a 240 gallon with yellow labs, S. fryeri, O. lithobates and two species of peacocks. There are barbs for dithers, Syno. lucipinnis and petricola, large rainbows, and even a bristlenose pleco or two. The point of the tank is to show people that fish with similar dietary needs and aggression levels can coexist with enough room and maintenance. While it's not ideal, it's definitely a mix that's worked well long term. Some of those loaches are 6 and 7 years old.

I see people on a regular basis that stress their fish to the point that they are actually losing them, trying to match the parameters they think they need. Using acid buffers to try to drop the pH of their tap water in their tank and causing severe pH swings due to the alkalinity defeating the attempts. The fluctuations are VERY stressful to the fish. In higher pH, ammonia is exponentially more toxic. Adequate filtration should make sure that's never an issue, barring failure.

I know that the article is meant to educate people, but honestly, there is more than one way to keep fish happy and healthy. I keep fish from many continents in my house, in the water that comes out of my tap. Most of them breed there with very little help and assistance from me. Not everyone is lucky enough to have good tap water, but a lot of the effort made to exactly match parameters the fish originally came from is unnecessary, IMO. Especially for riverine fish, as parameters can change drastically from bank to bank of a river.

Barbie


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## Malawidolphin (Dec 15, 2006)

My tap water is directly from a well with no filters or softeners between the well and my tap. My PH comes out of the tap at 9.2 ish and it settles, after a bit, in the tank around the 7.8 to 8.2 mark but get this, it is soft water!. I was very concerned that I wouldn't be able to keep a variety of fish but that has not been the case. In one tank I have a very nice Chocolate cichlid and I'll tell you he is one of the nicest looking samples of one that I've seen. I've had him since he was very small and he is pushing 6 inches and doing extremely well and loves to be hand fed. I have two silver dollars in with him and they, too, are thriving. I wouldn't try to keep discus but I have had no trouble with any of the fish that I used to keep before I moved here. I don't mess with my water and each time I do a water change I know there is a PH fluctuation so I add the water slowly over the course of a few hours and everyone is happy.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I did a lot of research on www.loaches.com and read that article to see if I could find a loach that would work for my snail problem.

The reason I did the research is that I'd feel guilty housing a fish in marginal conditions so that I could make it work for me, LOL.

I have some problems with the article because facts elsewhere on the same website did not support all the points made for every loach. Some loaches live in rapid currents but not all. Some like a lower pH (like clowns) but not all. Also Malawi pH is not consistently over 8.0. The temperature thing I did not find true at all. NLS would take care of any food concerns. Rock instability is too unsafe for loaches? It would be just as unsafe for Africans, so we make it safe.

One thing to keep in mind is that loaches DO like to be in large groups, and need larger tanks than some of us realize.

In the end the reason I did not add the loaches to my tank (thanks Barbie) was aggression. I was thinking about adding loaches to my Calvus tank, figuring Calvus are on the timid side. Barbie who keeps both the loach (Sids) I wanted and Calvus said she would not risk her Sids with adult Calvus. That was that!

The war between me and the snails continues unassisted!


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## MetalHead06351 (Oct 3, 2007)

ph and most other natural water conditions really only matter if your fish are wild caught, or your trying to breed them. The latter doesn't always prove necessary either. I know quite a few people who keep their loaches with africans with absolutly no problem. The point of this article is about as relevant as keeping africans and new worlds seperated, not common practice to mix them but not hurtful to either kind of fish.


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## ashilli48 (May 14, 2006)

I feel like I was just walking down the street, minding my own business, wearing my brand new fur coat and someone just ran by and dumped paint on me!

I have not come across anyone on this site that is out to harm their fish. Quite the contrary. We bend over backwards, stayng up late nursing a sick fish, spending hundreds of dollars to keep alive fish that cost 2 bucks, etc, etc.

Ultimately none of us can duplicate the exact natural environment of any of our fish. Even keeping them in a "box of water" is considered innappropriate.

What's next? Who will rise up and champion the cause of the poor pleco? Correct me if I am wrong but there are no plecos found in the same rivers, lakes, etc as any cichlid.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Actually, plecos are found through out south america and even up into costa rica in the same rivers lots of cichlids are, often caught together in the same areas of those rivers.

Ie, the Rio Moron has plecos, pike cichlids, acaras, dwarf acaras and apistos.

Plus at least there are some species of hard water, high pH, and even one brackish pleco. Loaches not so much.


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## ashilli48 (May 14, 2006)

Thanks for correcting me on the pleco. I figured they were all over put hopefully I made my point.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

ashilli48, I guess you have not read posts by the pleco protectors :lol: ...they are members here too! (I have a bristlenose who is doing great, but his siblings weren't so lucky.)

Read the posts at loaches.com or planetcatfish.com for a few months. They say the same stuff about cichlid lovers in reverse. What is it Sy Young says...an educated consumer is our best customer!


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## Barbie (Feb 13, 2003)

I'd have to see those posts at planet catfish . I don't believe you should keep plecos with cichlids that are chewing them up or starving them out, but with 26 colonies of plecos in my house, they are obviously mixed here and there with Tanganyikan, Malawi, and even South American cichlids. I have spawned 15 species to date and I'm working towards another two or three before the Catfish Convention in October .

I answer the questions at PC with the same information. Mixing similar aggression levels, dietary needs, and temperature requirements are MUCH more important criteria than whether or not the fish were all originating in water with the same pH. You can't keep discus with fish that outcompete them for food or fish that can't handle 86 degrees at times. You don't want to mix fish that are very territorial with fish that are dominant and expect their opponents to remember they were beaten last time. The territorial fish keeps thinking he won when the other fish leaves his territory and they never work out who actually is winning until the damage is done.

Personal preference is going to play a huge role in all of our tanks. Some people don't mind having fish chewed up a bit from time to time. That takes quite a bit of the enjoyment out of the hobby for me, so I avoid it, and recommend avoiding it to my customers. For purists that enjoy perfectly matching the parameters fish are found in, the way I keep fish would be totally objectionable. It's just all a matter of perception, IMO.

Barbie


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## christopherhicks (Jun 18, 2007)

Wow didnt expect that I was only posting something I found. I was going to buy some loaches and put them in my Malawi tank so I was doing some research and I found that article. Thanks for the input.


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## JWerner2 (Jul 7, 2008)

I always thought it would be bad to mix Clown loaches with Africans.

Oh well I'm in my own dilemma. When I moved all my community fish out of my big tank to turn it into my Compressiceps tank I couldn't find my Kuhli Loach. I searched and searched and just figured one way or another he was consumed by something or someone if he did die.

Well I took out the decor and replaced most of it all with rocks and juiced the PH up right away. Got my first Comp a day or so later and just morned the Kuhli Loach for a few days.

Well 3 nights ago I seen him swimming around nice and content slithering around the rock picking at the sand leaving little pock marks behind.

This thing looks to be in great health!!! He was always in great health which I assume is why he acclimated to the direct changed well but after not seeing him for at least 2 months and thinking he was dead he looks way bigger!

Just thought I would share that. Oh he also now has my Leleupi hiding behind the filter intake :-? :x .


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## ashilli48 (May 14, 2006)

I had the exact same thing happen to my kuhli. It was worst though. I broke the tank down, drained it as much as possible, put it in a hot *** moving fan for several hours then filled it up at the new house. A few days later he showed up running around the tank like it was a track. 2 months later he is still loving the environment.

I definitely agree that you should match the typical parameters the particular species usually reuqires. But ultimately you are building something to suit your eye/interests/etc. As long as you are not torturing something, anything goes in my book. Except of course parrot cichlids and dyed/tattoed fish, that's horrible!


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