# Here's my wish-list. Can I mix all these ...



## beachtan (Sep 25, 2008)

ok. at the risk of sounding like an idiot, I've read lots and there are so many different opinions on mixing. Some of the books I read are REALLY old so I thought I would get some opinions from you "pro's". 

I have so far: (the (2) 3" bala sharks which everyone has told me to get rid of...)

1 yellow lab (1")
1 perlmutt (>1")
1 socolofi (2")
pair ruby crystal peacocks (2")

I'd like to add 
2 more yellow labs, -hopefully to breed

2-3 star sapphires (placidochromis -tanzania) i know they get 10" but I'll turn them in when they get too big. just really love the bright blue... other options welcome!

2-3 pseudotropheus demasoni (like the dark blue/black stripes)

3-4 Tropheus Duboisi (love the spotted juvies)

2-3 of either neolamprologus tretocephalus or n. sexfasciatus (like the black/white stripes)

2-4 neolamprologus pulcher (kambwimba)"daffodil" (just overall good-lookin' fish)

I also found someone near me on craigslist advertising "victorian cichlids" that look like kyoga flamebacks, but they could be christmas fulu's or pundamilla or rock kribs - they dont know. but they're selling me 9 babies for $15 so I really wanna do it. they are just under 1"

I have a 55 gal with LOTS of hiding places/rocks and plants and will be adding a large airstone. I know this is a LOT of fish, but ... please be gentle and dont call me stupid!

what I'm looking for is some advice on "tweaking" this list a bit if needed. I'm in Michigan so I dont even know if I can find these. and hmmm... what about some kind of cat or algae eater/pleco? Sorry - think I've had too much coffee today!!!!


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## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

Okay, so here's the thing. You're mixing three very different group of fish that aren't really recommended to be mixed. You have:

Lake Malawi mbuna
Lake Malawi haps and peacocks
Lake Tanganyika

At the very least, you should pick either a Malawi set up or a Tang set up and do fish from that category only. They really don't mix well. The tropheus are also not a good idea for someone inexperienced with cichlids; they're a tougher species to keep successfully.

A 55gal tank is much too small for the Phenos, so scratch them or get a 6ft tank, whichever you prefer 

Oh, one other large thing - the demasoni. They need to be kept in large groups of 10-12 as a minimum, or one dominant fish will kill the others off. They are very, very conspecific (towards their own species) aggressive.

I think that's a good start at least


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## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

Oh, I totally missed the Victorian part...I'll leave that for the next person


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

Look at the 55gallon cookie cutters

Please slow down. Pick a lake and pick 3 species and get some groups of fish. Picking one of this and one of that will lead to a LOT of problems down the road - for mbuna, 6 months or so will be all it will take. Odds are the single Perlmutt and Socolofi will be a serious issue if they turn out to be males if you go with your other choices.

In regard to your choices:

Yellow labs are great. A great starter/base fish for a cichlid tank.

Phenos - will outgrow your tank BEFORE you see all that great color. A group (grown up) 1 male 2-3 female Copadichromis azureus will give you awesome blue if you want a blue hap. Or Peacocks will also work with yellow labs.

Demasoni need to be in a group of at least 10 - or you will end up with 1 - yes 1, 2-3 simply will NOT work. They will not work with any haps/peacocks in a 55.

Tropheus Duboisi - species only tank you don't want to mix these in.

The tangs you picked - you get a couple to pair off in a 55 - pretty much kiss the rest of your fish goodbye - they can get very aggressive if/when they pair off.

Something basic like:
6 juvi Yellow labs
6 juvi Copadichromis azureus (or peacocks of choice) or (10-12 Demasoni)
and
6 juvi - Iodotropheus sprengerae (Rusties) or Ps. Acei

would give you a very pretty and relatively peaceful tank to learn from.

My 2 cents.

Good Luck.

I too missed the Victorians.



> I also found someone near me on craigslist advertising "victorian cichlids" that look like kyoga flamebacks, but they could be christmas fulu's or pundamilla or rock kribs - they dont know. but they're selling me 9 babies for $15 so I really wanna do it. they are just under 1"


Way big difference in the fish you mention as far as temperament. Get pictures of the parents and post them on these boards to see what you are actually getting before you add other fish, please.


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## beachtan (Sep 25, 2008)

ok.. ok.. I was afraid you'd be telling me that... :roll: but thanks - tough love is neccessary sometimes!! :wink: GREAT tip on the copadichromis azureus - love 'em! I was kinda just taking a shot in the dark with mixing. And all the descriptions say "aggressive" so I was thinking that if I got lots of aggressives then theyd be ok together.

so the star sapphires(phenos) will be replaced with copad.azur's 3-4?

what about the neolamps? was told at lfs that brachardi's would be fine and these look like those but with blue around eyes; so ?

how many more socolofi's should I get? the one I have has turned into a bully going after all the other fish - completely spastically shooting around the tank; actually taking bites out of fins...

3-4 more yellow labs...

anything black & white striped that I can look for? (instead of the troph duboisi & demasani's & neolamp sexfasciatus) i've seen convicts but they are not striking enough...

Also, about those victorians, whatever they might be! how about if I put them in my tank for now, and set up another tank just for those. are any of those names I listed as possible id's for these fish considered undesirable hybrids?

What should be my max fish total for an "overstocked" 55 gal? Waterchanges of 25% twice a week are not a problem - i got a python! works awesome!

I'll post pics of my tank asap - misplaced my usb cable...


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

> And all the descriptions say "aggressive" so I was thinking that if I got lots of aggressives then theyd be ok together.


There is aggression, and there is AGGRESSION, and then there is _*AGGRESSION*_. Hope that helps make is clear, there are many shades of evil you can put in your tank. The Socolofi would be AGGRESSIVE - kind of in the middle, the yellow labs and C. Azuresus are way on the mellow end of the scale - so the third species really needs to be relatively mellow as well for the tank to work (mainly because the C. Azuresus will do very poorly with an AGGRESSIVE tank mate).



> how many more socolofi's should I get? the one I have has turned into a bully going after all the other fish - completely spastically shooting around the tank; actually taking bites out of fins...


Return the Socolofi - you have seen absolutely nothing yet as if is still a juvi. This fish will cause you C. Azureus to be very stressed - the two together simply will not work. Really, it won't.

6 juvi Yellow Labs
6 juvi Copadichromis azureus 
plus
6 juvi Astatotilapia latifasciata if you want stripes. These are mellow and will get along great with the two above. One of the few mellow Victorians.
and add
1 - BN Pleco to keep algae under control.



> Also, about those victorians, whatever they might be! how about if I put them in my tank for now, and set up another tank just for those. are any of those names I listed as possible id's for these fish considered undesirable hybrids?


If you can get pictures of the parents people can help. There is a huge difference in aggression in what you listed - think of it like one is a pit bull, one is a golden retreirer, and one is a yorkie, that kind of difference. Think of the C. Azuresus as Yorkies - would you risk putting them in a kennel with a pit bull you did not know? If you don't know what they are, I would be very careful putting them in with the other fish, one group may very well kill off the other, or worse, stress them enough that you get a sick tank.

The reason I say no to putting the unknown Vics in is you may think things are going along fine so you wait on the new tank - then your 'peaceful' Rock Crib male decided he owns the tank - it will get very ugly overnite.

e.g. When I first started raising africans (before the internet and a resource like this!) I made the rookie mistake of putting an M. Auratus in with a bunch of other africans in a 45g (Argh!). Everything was fine for a couple of months, I went away for a weekend - the, I learned, male M. Auratus had changed colors and had killed everything in the tank except two torn up fish hinding behind the heater and spray bar. That is how bad it can get - and that quickly.

The aggression levels these fish can reach a sexual maturity can be very impressive. The Tangs you mention actually bond and protect their fry, so think how rough they could make it in your 55gallon tank for the other inhabitants - I wouldn't recommend them with your other choices.



> What should be my max fish total for an "overstocked" 55 gal? Waterchanges of 25% twice a week are not a problem - i got a python! works awesome!


What I listed above will give you a very full tank down the road - 6-8 months or so, I know it will look empty for a while but the fish do grow rapidly and the tank will really fill up.

Once a week water changes will be fine - just up it to a 30-50% water change once the fish get to be adults.

Hope this helps.

Good Luck.


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## beachtan (Sep 25, 2008)

Went to lfs. he said wait a bit longer with the shrks... so I now have added 3 danios , 1 yellow lb & 1 sololcfi.

Now 3 danios
2 bala sharks
2 yellow labs
1 tiny perlmutt
2 scolofi
2 ruby crystal peacodk.

looking better??? : )


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## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

Bad move I'm afraid. Stop listening to the store employees  Pairs of mbuna do not work. You might luck out with the labs, as they tend to be a little more mellow, but the socolofi are not going to do well for long.


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## Dewdrop (Nov 20, 2007)

Why didn't you just get 4 or 5 more yellow labs? Goofboy was giving you good advice. In a 55g. tank 3 species of fish is the right amount.

Get 6 small fish of each group (the 3 groups =18fish). As they mature and you can determin their sex, you can remove extra males so you have 1 male and 3-4 females of each group.

You need to decide on what fish you want or what fish the LSF has and see if they are compatible first though. Don't change you mind once you're in the LFS or let them talk you into something different. Have a plan in mind that you know will work before you go back to the LFS and stick to it.

You could also add 1 or 2 bn pleco to the tank to help keep the inside of the glass clean =19-20 fish. You could purchase more yellow labs (if they are going to be one of your 3 choices) and the plecos while you're making up your mind on what the other 2 groups of fish will be. :thumb:


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## beachtan (Sep 25, 2008)

I know, but it's a $$ issue! the yellow labs are little (1.25") so I can keep adding more since they are always in stock at this store. And socolofi are usually not so aggressive so I really want that fish(I love the coloring) and now that I added the other, the bully isnt bad at all. weird. He just sits next to the new one and they follow eachother around. the danios I got to distract aggression since they can outrun the cichlids and they look cool at the top of the tank with the sharks. Actually, I watched the tank for about 2 hours last nite and they are all doing really good. they each have their own hideouts in the rocks but we'll see.

I'm not ignoring your advice, just pushing things a little. lfs said as soon as I see a prob I can bring the problem-fish back in. and my tank looks AWESOME right now!

lfs is trying to find a few other species for me . I know... calm down! :wink: I'll need to set up another tank. Already looking into that. and a nursery tank. no holding yet of course, but hopefully down the road. I'll post some pics of my tank later today.

Thank you for your help! love reading the posts and it helps me know what to watch for as I'm "playing with fire"!!

Is there any attractive pleco I can get for the algae? rocks are getting a little green. lfs recommended bristlenose pleco but theyre so UGLY!


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## beachtan (Sep 25, 2008)

FYI: I'm extremely observant of my fish, so I check them constanly thru the day. -my family thinks I'm nuts. so at the first sign of a prob I'll take 'em out. :thumb:


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## beachtan (Sep 25, 2008)

and I'll definitely add more yellow labs like you said later this week when i get PAID! :dancing:


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## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

No money is not an excuse to have your fish suffer at your hands. If you can't afford to do it properly, then _wait_ until you can.


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## beachtan (Sep 25, 2008)

I'm not using money as an excuse. It's just the reason I didnt buy 4 more yellow labs yesterday. I put a priority on distracting my socolofi. I'm adding to my tank gradually so they can get used to each other. Rearranging rocks/plants each add. I'll add the labs next week. as for my fish suffering, I disagree. Any time you buy a new fish there is stress. Of course I'm concerned for and am watching the sharks closely and I do water changes every two days and give them the right foods and provide lots of hiding places. Since my most recent additions yesterday - they are all getting along much better. I know that can change. I've known the lfs owner for years and he's had 85 tanks at home breeding cichlids and others for over 25 years so he knows his fish. He knows the parents of each fish - maybe I shouldve explained that so you knew I was getting sound advice at the shop.

I like to get all your opinions on this site- it helps me with my decisions and I dont have to ask quite so many q's at the lfs! I dont need to just add fish and sit back -done. I like a tank that changes, that I can work on and eventually get more tanks.

Hope this helps you see I'm not an uncaring irresponsible cichlid owner!!


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## beachtan (Sep 25, 2008)

Goofboy: i went thru your advice to quickly and missed some of it. I really do like your idea of those 3. I'm going to set up another tank and put the others in there...

dude cancelled on me today about those flamebacks. bummer. i'll get pics of the parents. Maybe I wont be able to keep these, but they're cheap enough to give it a shot!


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## cichlidgirl1 (Sep 17, 2007)

In general africans are very territorial. Introducing a fish here or a fish there is not a good way to do it. It will be much easier for the dominant fish all ready in the tank to single out the new comers and shred them. Try to introduce 4 at a time, when you introduce them move everything in the tank around first, then drop in the fish. If you dont like the new way its setup you can put everything back in a few days after everybody settles in .

Stay away from brichardi, they are extremely aggressive when paired off and there is no way to tell males from females until they pair off. The tiny brichardi are more than capable of shredding or killing every other fish in the tank, even fish MUCH LARGER THAN THEM. I had 2 that paired off and they took over my six foot tank over night. Herded 18 other fish (all of them bigger than they were) into a one foot corner of the tank . From there they mounted non stop attacks. So unless you are going for a brichardi species only tank, dont get any.

Yellow labs and yellow tailed acei look good together and in general are not usually too aggressive. Add in a borleyi male for the blue you want and your peacocks then stop. Let them be for a while and see how everyone gets along. remember that the fish you are bringing home are babies and will grow, you dont want to get too many fish that when they get bigger will have to be moved etc.. I would avoid other mbuna species or you will run into big problems with aggression. Juvie mbuna will often get along fine till they get sexually active then go on killing sprees so just cause they are happy right now does not mean that they will all get along in 4 months. Try to keep that in mind if you can. I know its hard when you are stocking a tank not to go overboard.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

The problem with the way you are doing things is that a fish can be dead before you realize what is going on, even if you check the tank hourly.

And, overly stressed fish usually lead to sick fish, which can manifest in many different ways, and is not something you notice immediately.

The move you made adding the socolofi might have distracted the first one temporarily, but it's not going to work for long.

Why the danios? Is this tank not yet cycled?


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## beachtan (Sep 25, 2008)

Thx cichlidgirl! I was second guessing the brichardi's . I'll definitely skip those too!


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## beachtan (Sep 25, 2008)

beachtan said:


> ok. there are so many different opinions on mixing. Some of the books I read are REALLY old so I thought I would get some opinions from you "pro's".
> 
> I have so far: (the (2) 3" bala sharks which everyone has told me to get rid of...)
> 
> ...


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