# Flipping fish



## weebay (Nov 26, 2008)

My Aulonocaras, Yellow Labs and Blood Parrot have been flipping off their sides on the river sand substrate. I've looked closely at them and can't see any disease symptoms. However, on the advise of my LFS I treated the tank for white spot and then, when the fish didn't stop, flukes. I'm 4 doses into a 5 dose treatment and I've just spotted one of the Aulonocara still doing it.

I've had 4 fatalities (1 Lab, 1 Rusty Cichlid, 1 L200 plec and 1 Aulonocara) since I started the first treatment about a month ago but I'm not convinced I've got to the root of the problem.

Has anyone else seen this - is it a reaction to some sort of parasite or merely territorial behaviour?

Thanks


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## Pilgrim (Mar 28, 2005)

Have you checked your water parameters? If you have any ammonia, it burns their gills and it will cause them to flash. Dead fish hidden in your tank can cause your ammonia levels to rise unexpectedly.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Some flashing is normal show-off behavior. Are you sure they had a parasite in the first place?


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## weebay (Nov 26, 2008)

Checked the nitrite, nitrate and ammonia and the readings were all minimal.

I've just moved all the decor looking for the missing fish and can't find it. By the time I found the last missing one all that was left was the head. Should I assume 'nature will take it's course' and the others will eat it or should I clear the tank until I locate the remains? As I said there's no ammonia in the tank so that would indicate that there's not a fish decaying somewhere, right?

Do you guys have anymore info on flashing? And if it is normal behavior what could have caused the recent fatalities - the unnecessary medication?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

This is not scientific, so others should chime in with their experiences, but if an individual fish does it once every two hours or less then it's normal. Once could be a single rub or a quick succession. If the individual fish does it every 15 minutes then consider it a symptom of something wrong.

Like the difference between a human male running his fingers through his hair when a female strolls by (or another male he wants to feel superior to) versus that person with poison ivy causing constant itching/scratching.

Since the deaths started with the meds...they could be the cause. Meds are not supposed to harm the fish, but there have been reports...

If you have looked for the fish and you have no ammonia, you are probably OK just monitoring the ammonia to be sure it doesn't spike later.


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## weebay (Nov 26, 2008)

I'm not watching the tank constantly obviously but I don't generally see any individuals doing it more than once a day.

But when the parrot started joining in I did become alarmed - that's surely not 'natural' behavior. Read elsewhere that it could be a symptom of velvet - that's some scary stuff: http://aquaweb.pair.com/forums/archives ... read=74244


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

It's natural for the cichlids...don't know about the parrot.


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## weebay (Nov 26, 2008)

Been sitting here watching them for the last hour or so and they've been doing it repeatedly, especially the yellow labs and one of the aulonocaras in particular - certainly more that every 10 mins.

This must be excessive. But as I've said, I've treated the tank for white spot and flukes so I'm baffled why this is continuing. Please advise.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would post in the illness section.


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## Jason S (Feb 7, 2003)

Were any new fish added before the losses? Obligate parasites must get into the aquarium on new arrivals or contaminated equipment/decorations from another aquarium. New arrivals should be quarantined at least a week to observe for this before introducing. These types of infections should be treated. If nothing new was added, the issue is likely water quality with the stress possibly leading to an opportunistic pathogen infection. These situations are best handled by resolving the underlying stress before dumping in a bunch of meds. Adding a bunch of meds. can cause losses. Most of the anti-parasitic meds. have toxic materials [e.g. formalin compounds, copper, etc...] at levels meant to eradicate the parasite but not kill the fish, however weakened animals can be further compromised by these medications. Antibiotics for bacterial/fungal infections can also further stress fish via side-effects [moreso for anti-fungals] and impacts on non-target organisms responsible for biological filtration [causing elevated levels of metabolites].

The behavior noted, scraping against substrates, is not uncommon and can be a general response to a variety of stressors. This behavior is very common after a heavy feeding, particularly if water quality was already in need of being addressed [i.e. it's time for a water change]. After feeding, fish excrete ammonia across the gills. Particularly heavy feedings of higher protein level feeds will be more likely to induce this behavior as the fish will scrape in response to inflammation of the gills. The behavior will be more pronounced if water quality is already degraded. A little of this behavior is normal but prolonged scraping accompanied by clamped fins, especially if more than one individual is involved, begs for reducing the amount of feed [and feeding smaller amounts more often] and changing water [a 40-50% volume change on mbuna is fine].

Parasites will often attack the gills first -delicate gill filaments are less "armored" against attacks as they must also facilitate gas exchange. Fish will often scrape in response to this type of infection. However parasites must enter via new fish or contaminated material from another infected aquarium. Individual specimens receiving prolonged aggressive attacks can also show this behavior. In this case, no note of aggression or new additions has been made so water quality sounds like more of the issue. Reduce feed and provide weekly changes and monitor behavior. I wouldn't dump in any more medications unless I was certain of an infection. Don't add anything new until the situations has been resolved for several weeks.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

weebay said:


> Checked the nitrite, nitrate and ammonia and the readings were all minimal.


Minimal??? You should have zero readings for ammonia and nitrite. Nothing more than that is acceptable.

What kind of test kits are you using? Liquid reagent or strips? How old are they?

How long has this tank been set up?

What is your normal tank maintenance routine?


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## weebay (Nov 26, 2008)

Ammonia and nitrite readings are 0 and the nitrate is 5.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

cichlidaholic said:


> What kind of test kits are you using? Liquid reagent or strips? How old are they?
> 
> How long has this tank been set up?
> 
> What is your normal tank maintenance routine?


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## weebay (Nov 26, 2008)

The new test kits are liquid reagent (Nutrafin and Tetra). 
The tank is approximately 3 months old. 
I change 20-40% of the water weekly and I've rinsed the filter in tank water once.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Did these fish go through the cycling of the tank? If so, this may be contributing to your problems.

Usually, if fish are flashing and you can't see anything on them externally, it's something related to water (past or present) or gill flukes...It might even be something else going on internally with them.

Since your water is in good shape and you're using test kits that are pretty dependable, I would consider treating the tank with something with praziquantel in it, just in case this is flukes. Jungle Parasite Clear has metronidazole and praziquantel in it, or you could pick up some PraziPro.

Water changes will continue to be key in any treatment that you choose.

JPC should be used for 3 complete treatments, spaced 48 hours apart, with a 25% water change prior to the 2nd and 3rd treatments.

Gill flukes can be very hard to get rid of, so if you're seeing improvement after completing the treatment, you might want to go another round just to make sure.


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## weebay (Nov 26, 2008)

I'm afraid the fish did go through the cycling process. I was told by my LFS that if I added Safe Start with the introduction of the fish they'd be fine. The parameters were all good for about a month and then the nitrite shot right up. I didn't lose any fish at the time, but did a few panicky water changes to artificially lower the nitrite until the filtration caught up.

I completed a flukes treatment yesterday so should I do a large water change before trying to source the Jungle Parasite Clear?

And should I continue with normal feeding?

Thanks cichlidaholic


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Yes, do a water change and replace new carbon in your filter for a few hours to remove the old meds. Give the substrate a good vacuuming while you're at it...When parasites are suspected, that's always a good idea.

It won't hurt to feed them, just feed them sparingly to keep the waste down.

You may experience long term problems with these fish, since they went through the cycle. You may find that they don't live as long as they should, or you may find that their health needs constant attention. You aren't the first person to be steered wrong by a LFS. :wink:


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