# What would you do?



## dsiple3 (Mar 4, 2014)

Recently someone rated the above tank a 4 out of 10. After being a little annoyed for a few days and getting over that, I wanted to look at this constructively. So to do this properly, I have to ask myself what could/should be done differently to make this tank worthy of a "Tank of the Month" submission. The comment was given that there is not enough contrast.

*So I ask the community, what would you do to improve the look of this tank? 
*
My goal is to make it look like a natural rocky environment. I tried to make the rock pile up on itself as if they fell from a cliff face or rock slide. The front half of the tank is open for swimming with a few rocks coming forward to allow for line of sight break. The main color inhabitants are ~20 Dems and ~8 Yellow Labs. Every once in awhile the Featherfin catfish or the Decorus will make an appearance. The 3D background is attached and made to look like a rock wall (at least that was the intent). It wraps on both sides to hide the intake and returns.

The lights are dual T5 fixtures with an Actinic blue on the front side and a normal idk what K light on the backside. I want to replace them with daylight bulbs at some point in the near future.

The fish seem happy with almost any set up since there is a plethora of hidey holes for them. Fry seem to survive too well because of all the small gaps between the rocks that they can squeeze into, which I sort of like. As an example, the last female dem to release has 9 babies that have avoided the gaping maws of the adults.

I ask that you be a little specific about what you are suggesting. "More contrast" doesn't help me.
Thanks for the ideas and suggestions in advance. BTW, the only camera I have atm is my phone which may contribute to lesser quality pics.


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## The Cichlid Guy (Oct 18, 2014)

Not a bad tank at all. For me, as far as contrast goes, the rock work blends in with the background almost too well, so you lose a little bit of the sense of depth. I understand where you were going with the rock slide look, but it still seems a little too placed. I would like to see them more distributed throughout the tank, rather than in two concentrated piles, but I would still keep some of that elevation on either side as points of interest. Also, that one holey rock in the middle is throwing me off, just a little.  Using only similar rocks will help you achieve the natural look you're going for.

Some of your rock is also very similar to your sand, which could add to the perceived lack of contrast. You could try adding some darker colored rocks, or adding/changing to a darker colored substrate. Either of these changes would help to make your fish really "pop". As far as sand goes, you might have too much for some people's taste, but I don't really mind it.

When it comes to our tanks, it's hard not to take things personally. I'm glad you're making the best out of it, and looking for ways to improve. :thumb:


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

When opening this thread and seeing the photo - before reading any of your post - the first thought that shot through my head was: "Wow, that is one gorgeous looking tank." My hunch is that whoever rated it 4/10 is probably into new world cichlids, and usually rates African tanks 3/10 at the very most. I wouldn't pay that too much mind. Besides, how can you get more contrast than between yellow labs and demasoni? In addition, you have brightly colored fish, and a rock structure that is fairly subdued in color - another great contrast! Finally there is contrast between the rocks in the tank, and the beautiful wood of the cabinet and hood - contrast number three! All of this adds up to make your fish really stand out. Any additional contrast - eg between different colored rocks, between rocks and substrate, or between rocks and background - would only take away from that. Plus people might rightfully say you'd have too much contrast! 

The rock structure to me looks very natural - just like you intended. In my view it does exactly what you wanted it to do. Of course the general rule is to use only one type of rock, and you have the one piece of holey rock that stands out. But then nature doesn't always follow these rules to the letter, but there are 'flaws', and in your case I reckon this one flaw makes the tank look even more natural.

Regarding the suggestion to flatten out the rock piles, in a tank we need to strike a balance between arranging the rocks in a way that makes them useful for the fish and allows them to interact with them, eg as cave, spawning site, etc, etc; and having them look natural. Caves are rare in nature, but we want as many as possible in a tank! In my view your rock scape strikes a perfect balance and I would not change a thing.

Now to suggest one thing, if it was for me I would find it impossible to resist the urge of wedging some Anubias plants between the rocks and watching them spread. But that's mostly because I am a plant nut who cannot have any tank without life plants.

Be that as it may, you have my vote for tank of the month as is, and that's coming from someone who has won three of them so far


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## Jeff1192 (Aug 19, 2014)

I really like saw hat you have started there. My suggestion would be 2 things. The first would be a black background for more depth and contrast. The second would be to read up on the rule of thirds. I would make one large rock pile on one side almost to the surface and a smaller one on the other side with some open space in the middle. But bottom line its your tank and you need to be happy with it.

Jeff


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## miDnIghtEr20C (Aug 13, 2013)

Obviously whoever rated your tank pictured in first post a 3 out of 10 has no idea what they're talking about and should probably stick with beta tanks. There's no way your tank is a 3 out of 10 and I wouldn't worry about what anyone thinks of how your tank looks. Only person that needs to be impressed is yourself. Great looking tank. Keep it looking the way you like and makes you and your fish happy.


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## dsiple3 (Mar 4, 2014)

The pic I posted was from a few weeks ago before I removed the 4 remaining Acei. To remove them I had to remove every single piece of rock and lower the water level until they literally couldn't swim behind the side BGs. I also had to move the tank/stand over about 6" to measure how much I truly have to build a cabinet on the side. As an aside, I am planning on removing all the filters and equipment from below the tank and put my "new to me" 5' 95G underneath for plants and other fish as a living refugium sort of thing.

Here is the tank as of today when I added everything back in:


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## dsiple3 (Mar 4, 2014)

Doh, I posted before I meant to and stupid edit timer. :? I hit submit instead of preview.

Oh well, here is the rest of the post.
Other than not being as high as I would like, I sort of like this rock distribution a little better. It seems to only allow the left side rocks to butt up against the holey rock, but the right side pile spills over it a little. I have been toying with the idea of turning it and hiding it a little more, possibly moving it to one side or the other a little more rather than having it shine as a center piece. I like it in the tank to provide the needed hiding places for juvenile fish when the adults get rowdy.

As for the sand depth, that will change when I get the lower tank set up. About 3/8 to 1/2 the sand will go in there. The reason it looks so deep on the left in the first pic was because of the stupid Acei that wasn't happy until he saw the glass tank bottom under 2 specific rocks. Every time I moved them somewhere else in the tank he would find them and dig under them. I guess he had a death wish, but it's ok now that he is rehomed.

As for the plant suggestion, I have to wonder, would the existence of a planted tank within the same stand make a difference? I have thought about Java Fern and Anubias attached to rock that remains in the back of the tank. I could try it for a few months and see if it helps at all. If I don't like it, then I can always put in the lower tank in Marchish possibly. March is when I hope to have the new work complete.


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## The Cichlid Guy (Oct 18, 2014)

I like this rockwork better, too. You maintained slight peaks on either side, and there are lots of interesting nooks and crannies between the stacks.

As for adding plants, I think you would be fine with having them in both tanks if you like the look. If you're worried about nutrient deficiency, you could always dose some ferts, but with an African bio load I don't think you would need much. Can't wait to see your refugium!


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## dsiple3 (Mar 4, 2014)

I'll get a better pic later when it starts to get dark outside to reduce reflections and before I feed so the fish are out looking to me for their num-nums.

I'll try to pick up one or two Java fern or Anubias this weekend to add. If I don't like the look, I can pout them in my daughters tropical tank to grow until next year.

I'm not worried about nutrients because as you said, African Cichlids, not much more needs to be said....lol


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

In my experience, if you ad any significant amount of nutrients/fertilizer to a tank, you also need to supply the plants with high wattage lighting and CO2[/sub] to allow them to make use of the fertilizer. If you don't do all three, you risk an algae outbreak. Since I don't want to deal with the high plant growth rates of a high tech planted tank, I use neither ferts, nor high wattage lighting or CO[sub]2. As others have eluded to, fish waste in an African tank is usually enough to sustain quite a good growth of plants like Java fern and Anubias.


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## somebody (May 13, 2014)

Looks good.
+1 plants 
+1 holey rock distracting

I find the one holey rock kind of random. That would he the only thing I would remove. I would start playing with plants to see what I like. I think some tall plants in the back and some bushy plants in the front. Not a lot, but enough to add depth. Prolly some tall vals between the rock work and the background.

+1 on fmuller. I have a decent amount of plants with high light. It seems as though wish waste  is helping them. I also have plants in the "fuge" part of my sump and their lighting schedule is opposite of the display tanks light. Reasoning..... co2.


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## atreis (Jan 15, 2013)

IMO the background adds too much noise, and doesn't match the (fairly complex) colors and patterns of the rockwork. I'd use a simple black or very dark blue background and then see how the rocks look. I'm betting it would really help them to stand out more.

I also like plants.


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## Als49 (Jul 11, 2014)

dsiple3 said:


> Recently someone rated the above tank a 4 out of 10. After being a little annoyed for a few days and getting over that, I wanted to look at this constructively. So to do this properly, I have to ask myself what could/should be done differently to make this tank worthy of a "Tank of the Month" submission. The comment was given that there is not enough contrast.


I wonder for whom did you make this tank?

Is it for others to comment? Or is it for you yourself?

Imho as long as you're happy it's the most important thing. I personally don't care about what people think about my tanks: it's mine and I have 100% ownership on this tank. People definitely can comment and I choose to listen to only positive and constructive comments.

So is yours.

Unless you made this tank commercially for a client or for a contents, that's a different matter, it's the client or the jurors who must be happy.

If I may suggest and it's absolutely your decision, I'd make the piles different sizes and heights. I'll put the bigger pile at about 1/3 from the left or from the right to make a vocal point. I'll also integrate the holey rock into the bigger pile for a contrast.


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## Woundedyak (Oct 19, 2007)

Whenever you post something personal online. Somebody will always beat you down. I think you have an outstanding tank setup for your collection. IMO if you want to change something around. the easiest thing is obviously your rock scape. When I get bored of my layout. I'll either remove or add a ton of rocks and let a buddy who can careless about it lay out the new setup. It's amazing how it turns out (With some mods) when you have a fresh perspective.


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## Als49 (Jul 11, 2014)

And because like FMueller I also like plants, I'll also add some anubias, bucephalandra or microsorum. They'll make the tank look more refreshing and also help absorbing nitrates (plants are good biological filters, especially the fast growing ones!)


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## somebody (May 13, 2014)

Woundedyak said:


> Whenever you post something personal online. Somebody will always beat you down.


 I didn't beat him down


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## dsiple3 (Mar 4, 2014)

Somebody, there is always a clown in the group.

As for why I built the tank, it is for me and my house. However, I am always up for compliments (who isn't?) and criticism that helps me improve what I see. My mother-in-law lives with me and comments that I am never truly happy with how my tank is set up. I guess she gets this from the way I rebuilt the canopy 3 times before I left it alone. Since my brother-in-law basically gave me a 5' 95G tank that will fit nicely underneath the 125, I am starting to plan how I am going to move filters and the control panel into a cabinet on the side. I have to build the cabinet as a finished work before the wife will let me attach it to the current stand. Yeah, I will prolly always find something to tinker with. It wouldn't be called a hobby if I didn't. And I wasn't really bothered so much by criticism, I get over that stuff pretty fast. It might be that deep down inside I agree a little that it needed some work. That is why I decided to start this thread. It has been pretty helpful in giving me some ideas on what I can do to change things up some.

The background was my first attempt at making a 3D BG ever. I sort of like it if for no other reason than that I built it with my son. If I make a change to the BG for any reason, it will be a last resort.

Holey rock: I always wanted some holey rock because I liked how it looked in other peoples tanks. Once I got that piece for Father's Day I couldn't wait to put in the tank and see how it looked. I won't say I was disappointed, but I was not overwhelmed either. I definitely understand why some people would say to remove it. I think for now I want to leave it where it is and do an experiment with it. I am thinking of threading some vallis through it in a few places on the backside to see what type of effect that has. If the fish don't eat it that is. Has anyone done this or seen it done on this forum? If it looks nice, I may invest in another 2 large pieces for the 95 and put all 3 pieces in the 95 as mid- to rear-ground pieces.

If the grass laced through and behind the holey rock doesn't satisfy, I will probably bury it as a base for one of the piles so the juvies still have a good place to hide when harassed.

Plants: I am not opposed to plants in the tank, as you can see from the paragraph above. I think plants in a tank can do 1 of 2 things, just like the aforementioned holey rock. 1) It can add color and beauty to a tank as well as function in biological control. 2) It can detract from the desired appearance if not done correctly, which is my fear with plants. In rereading Fmuellers first post here I thought about an article I read lately while researching plants. The guy said that he loves the jungle look in his tanks. When I looked at it I didn't see anything but a mess of plants that got out of control. Too me it was way too much plants. I also remember seeing some very nice planted setups on this forum that I liked. So I'll try some and see what happens. I don't mind putting plants in as long as it doesn't take away from the look of the tank.

The main concern for me is the fish. I don't mind anchoring plants to rocks and burying them. I don't have any major diggers in the tank anymore since I removed the bulldozer Acei last weak. Now my concern is actually more on whether the plants will survive, a.k.a. will the fish eat them?

Thanks for the comments and suggestions. I really appreciate that they have all been constructive and helpful.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Valisneria really need a good substrate bed to sink their roots into if you want them to do well. The same is true for Amazon sword plants (Echinodorus) and Cryptocoryne sp. Plants that can be anchored on rocks and really don't care if there is substrate or not are Anubias sp, the different types of Java fern, Bolbitis, and Java moss. These are pretty much all the plants I had good luck with in low tech planted cichlid tanks. I pretty much steer clear of all other plants these days, particularly stem plants, because many need high tech conditions to really shine, and cichlids rip them up and create a mess just by playing with them.

Anyhow, if you want a Valisneria type look,o but the plant is supposed to grow over, and be anchored on holey rock, get yourself some narrow leaf Java fern.


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## atreis (Jan 15, 2013)

Understood about the background.  My cichlid rocks are similar - a gift from the kids, and therefore can't be removed even though I don't actually like the look of them that much, and the fish don't seem to care either way.

I've found the fish largely leave Anubias and Java Fern alone.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

You've already received some great input. I would like to add that I feel your tank is too bright. Try removing a bulb, and move your fixture all the way to the front of your tank. It will add a sense of depth.


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## dsiple3 (Mar 4, 2014)

Darn you Iggy, I knew you would give me a suggestion on something that would require actual work.  I have been noticing lately, since I have been trying to figure out the contrast issue, that the light does make the rock work very bright. I want to replace the bulbs as well, as I said before. Would 6700 daylight bulbs still be too bright?

I bought a Java Fern from a local pet chain (not sure how smart they are since a Bala Shark jumped out of one of their tanks while I was there...lol). I tied the fern with cotton thread to one of my smaller rocks, about the size of my hand, and dropped it behind the Holey rock. A yellow lab has taken interest in it and keeps pushing the leaves around. We'll see how it goes. Once it grows and attaches to the rock, I'll start experimenting with placement.


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## pfoster74 (May 13, 2012)

My tank design changes weekly when i do water changes. I did a change yesterday and not real happy the way it turned out. I figure oh well i will fix it next week with the next water change .your tank looks good, I personally like some plants in the tanks also but it's all personal preferences. to me it looks like they have lots of hiding places and should be fine with your vision.


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## dsiple3 (Mar 4, 2014)

Found a good article recommended by someone on this forum about hard scaping. So tonight I decided to make the tank cloudy by moving EVERYTHING and use the holey rock as a base for the tall rock mound and the other boulder in the tank as the base for the lower mound. I took different pics with the room light on and off. Sorry for quality of pics, still only camera is phone. The water is cloudy so don't blame the phone for that. I am liking this set up better. Daughter didn't like the bare right side, so I put a few rocks at ground level to give the fish a reason to use this space. Except for the cats, they are all Mbuna so they like rocks.

I also wanted to figure out how to lower the lighting in the tank as well, so I moved both of the Actinic Blue bulbs into the left side fixture and the shop light bulbs into the right side. In noticing how the white angles itself into the blue, I got an idea, maybe it would work, maybe not. I can put 2 more blue bulbs in the right side and get 3-4 of the spot lights that go under cabinets in kitchens as sporadic spot lighting through the blue. I'm thinking it will stay low light enough to not wash out the rock work again and give an effect of the sun coming through between rocks above the water line.

The Java Fern is anchored in the holey rock but not tall enough yet to peek over the rocks in front of it. We'll see how it looks in a month.


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## dsiple3 (Mar 4, 2014)

Thanks to Iggy, I finally figured out how to take a better pic of my tank without it being so washed out.
I changed the rock work up with some minor movements of the smaller rocks in the middle and front of the right side pile. I also covered parts of the t5 bulbs to subdue the lighting some.

Forgot to turn off flash, but OMG what a difference.

I still have some work to do on it. Hopefully the honey do list is short on Saturday.

What do you guys and gals think now?

PS: I do have a Java Fern in the tank. The Yellow labs took soo much interest in it that each time I attached it to a rock, they would find a way to set it free within 3 days. Once free, they didn't bother it anymore, the little turds.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

Definitely an improvement! It looks like you still used a flash in the picture though. Typically, you want to take pictures in complete darkness with only the aquarium light on. At least that's how I've managed to get the best quality pics.

Edit: Just noticed you said you forgot to turn off the flash!


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Looks better for sure.


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## illy-d (Nov 6, 2005)

fmueller said:


> Valisneria really need a good substrate bed to sink their roots into if you want them to do well. The same is true for Amazon sword plants (Echinodorus) and Cryptocoryne sp. Plants that can be anchored on rocks and really don't care if there is substrate or not are Anubias sp, the different types of Java fern, Bolbitis, and Java moss. These are pretty much all the plants I had good luck with in low tech planted cichlid tanks. I pretty much steer clear of all other plants these days, particularly stem plants, because many need high tech conditions to really shine, and cichlids rip them up and create a mess just by playing with them.
> 
> Anyhow, if you want a Valisneria type look,o but the plant is supposed to grow over, and be anchored on holey rock, get yourself some narrow leaf Java fern.


Don't want to seem contrary but my experience with Valisneria is that it will grow fine in play sand, so long as it established and has lots of light. I don't think you would have any chance of starting Valisneria in a fully stocked cichlid tank with a good substrate bed though.

In my case when I had Val running wild in my cichlid tank with a play sand substrate, the Vals were in months before the cichlids and were well established.

Interesting note - it was a pain in the but to plant the vals in sand (they would constantly come loose just with current from my filters); but once they started sending out trailers, those trailers would sink in roots really, really good and were way more securely planted than anything I could do.

I second the use of Anubias & Java fern for a simple, planted look that is super easy to maintain and cichlid friendly.


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## dsiple3 (Mar 4, 2014)

The Java fern experiment seems to be a bust at this time. No matter how I tried to tie it to anything in the tank, someone (I think one of the yellow labs) keeps pulling it free to float. After reattaching it numerous times and watching for new growth, al leaves came off and the rest disappeared. Each leaf that had a new plant forming disappeared as well. Either I have a tank with its own Bermuda Triangle or some yellow labs with iron guts.

Maybe I'll experiment with Anubias next.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

That sucks. Good luck with anubias.


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