# Is this a dwarf comp? Help please



## tokyo (Jan 19, 2010)

I bought some Alto sp. "compressiceps shell" from a local breeder, but I'm starting to think they are just young compressiceps.

The only comp shell I have seen pictures of have been light colored with yellow fins. The ones I bought don't look anything like this.

Here's a pic of one of mine. They are around 2-2.5". There are also two or three that are slightly lighter colored too, but they wouldn't let me take there picture.










Here is a photo of someone's Alto comp "sumbu". There are also a couple pics in the "Profiles" section.









As you can see, they look nothing alike. But I'm not sure if there are other variants that I don't know of or if this is the only "sumbu" color variant. Also, the body shape is different. The "sumbu" seem to have a more calvus like body, slighty longer and more streamline while mine have the traditional tall bodied comp look.

If I do just have young comps, what variant do I have? I have never seen a dark bodied comp before.

_**Edit: I probably should have posted this in the identification forum. I'd appreciate it if a mod could move it for me. Thanks**_


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

It doesn't look like any of the dwarf varieties from your picture. But the picture is a little dark perhaps you can get another shot of the fish? Any pearling on the scales or yellow in the finnage?


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## tokyo (Jan 19, 2010)

The picture actually isn't dark, that's how dark the fish is. There isn't any pearling but they do have vertical stripes.

They won't get close enough for me to take a good shot, but I'll try again when I get home.


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

It doesn't look like a dwarf comp to me but it's not the coloring that's suspect it's the size and shape. Dwarves seem to have a sleeker, more female, look to them, I presume, for easier shell access.

The only ones I've seen do have a bit of pearling.


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## tokyo (Jan 19, 2010)

Heres a pic of one of the others.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

It could be a dwarf comp as there is a collection point that is dark and striped like that. Females are never more than 2" males up to 3.5". Do they ever exhibit yellow on the front of their heads or turn completely black when showing dominance? The shape looks right to be a dwarf.


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## tokyo (Jan 19, 2010)

They haven't really been out enough to see much behavior. The one in the first pic is very dark and dominant, but not the most dominant. The one in the second pic is the most dominant, and as I watch them now from accross the room, he is displaying his dominance and has turned very dark. The smaller ones are much lighter.

I do believe the seller that these are dwarf comps. He seems very knowlegeable and is very involved in the cichlid community. But I need to be sure before selling fry from these fish. Since I have no experience with Altolamps, let alone the dwarf species, I need to rely on othes' opinions to confirm that these are dwarfs.



Darkside said:


> there is a collection point that is dark and striped like that


Only the smaller ones are striped, the larger ones are like the one in the second picture with a much taller, rounder body and no stripes.

The one in the first picture is the largest of the stripe ones and is about 2.5", maybe slightly smaller. It is also much darker than the other striped ones.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

You'll find out when they breed. Dwarf comps only produce 10-20 fry per spawn due to their diminutive stature.


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## tokyo (Jan 19, 2010)

Perfect, thanks. :thumb:


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

I would say it's best to judge dwarves off of behavior rather than stripes, coloring (Unless the coloring is terribly obvious.) They're going to be VERY close in appearance because, other than being adaptively smaller and behaviorally adapted to shell life, they're just comps.

Obviously though, size is a good judge for these guys. Size, color within reason, and behavior (Reluctance to leave the shell area when compared with other comps or Calvus), along with the seller's word (since you say he's reputable) should be satisfactory to be confident in breeding them.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

BioG said:


> I would say it's best to judge dwarves off of behavior rather than stripes, coloring (Unless the coloring is terribly obvious.) They're going to be VERY close in appearance because, other than being adaptively smaller and behaviorally adapted to shell life, they're just comps.
> 
> Obviously though, size is a good judge for these guys. Size, color within reason, and behavior (Reluctance to leave the shell area when compared with other comps or Calvus), along with the seller's word (since you say he's reputable) should be satisfactory to be confident in breeding them.


Dwarf Altos are facultative shell spawning fish. Mine showed no reluctance to leave the shells and really only used them for spawning purposes. Their behaviour was exactly the same as their larger relatives and they preferred the rock work to a shell bed. If anything size will be the determining factor, not behaviour.


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## Petrochromislover (Feb 23, 2009)

those are the sumbu dwarf comps, the are just regular altolamprologus compressiceps


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## tokyo (Jan 19, 2010)

Well mine prefer shells, but I only had two in the tank because I am still waiting for an order to come in. When the shells are full the remaining comps will flee to the rock work. It's kind of like musical chairs right now. :lol:

They are reluctant to stray too far from their shells also. Only they more dominant two will come out completely into the open and explore the tank.

This could also have to do with the fact that they are in a new environment and are uncomfortable.


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## tokyo (Jan 19, 2010)

Petrochromislover said:


> those are the sumbu dwarf comps, the are just regular altolamprologus compressiceps


What makes you say that?


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## Petrochromislover (Feb 23, 2009)

tokyo said:


> Petrochromislover said:
> 
> 
> > those are the sumbu dwarf comps, the are just regular altolamprologus compressiceps
> ...


because of the size and color, the sumbu dwarfs dont get that big, they remain small. the color on those altos are different from the sumbu's color.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

Petrochromislover said:


> tokyo said:
> 
> 
> > Petrochromislover said:
> ...


This is incorrect. There is more than one variant of dwarf comp in the lake, they have different colouring. Also, they do get that large, 2" was about the size of my largest female and the males can get over 3". I had the classic variety with the yellow face, yellow pectorals and caudal. They should be breeding at the size of Tokyo's.


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## tokyo (Jan 19, 2010)

Mine have spawned, just not yet for me.

Considering the opinions I have heard here as well as what I've seen in the only picture I have been able to find of the dark variety, and my impression of the breeder, I am fairly confident that these are in fact dwarf comps.

Thanks for the help everyone.

On a side note, I have a couple questions about these comps.

First, what size shell should I give them? In all the pics and videos I've seen of them they have been provided with shells about the size and shape if turbos, but because they are comps I would think that small conch/welch shells would be preferable.

I have turbos, whales eyes, and three different sizes of conch/welch coming in the mail this week. So I have a few different options to work with.

Secondly, Ummm, well I just forgot my second question.  Must have been important. :roll:


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

tokyo said:


> First, what size shell should I give them? In all the pics and videos I've seen of them they have been provided with shells about the size and shape if turbos, but because they are comps I would think that small conch/welch shells would be preferable.
> 
> I have turbos, whales eyes, and three different sizes of conch/welch coming in the mail this week. So I have a few different options to work with.


IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢d put in a couple of each type and let them decide. So far, my small female Calvus has been breeding in a turbo shell. I bought some appropriately sized tonna shells that I thought she might prefer. But, so far she just isnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t interested in them.


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## Petrochromislover (Feb 23, 2009)

Darkside said:


> Petrochromislover said:
> 
> 
> > tokyo said:
> ...


all dwarf comp varieties have the pale body and yellow face. this altolamprologus Tokyo has is Altolamprologus compressiceps red fin.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

Petrochromislover said:


> Darkside said:
> 
> 
> > Petrochromislover said:
> ...


This is incorrect. Mine were often very dark in colour, black when dominant. Ad Konings has some pictures of dwarf comps in his back to nature guide that don't fit the description you're giving. Have you had any experience maintaining and breeding these fish? I don't know where you're drawing these conclusions from...?


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

Petrochromislover said:


> all dwarf comp varieties have the pale body and yellow face. this altolamprologus Tokyo has is Altolamprologus compressiceps red fin.


There's definitely more than one variety. In "_Back to Nature Guide to Tanganyika Cichlids_" Ad Konings has pictures of two different varieties (Nkondwe Island and Cape Kachese). And neither of them look like the picture commonly found on the Internet.


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

I have heard/read that it is debated in the scientific community whether or not the "dwarf" species is even that. Somebody weigh in on that?

The reasoning I read was that some exported "Dwarf Altos", kept without shells, would slowly reach somewhat normal sizes for a comp once they were, of course, exported from their portion of the lake which only allowed a shell habitat.

It was awhile back that I read this so maybe someone remembers what I'm talking about :lol: :roll:

The Sumbus I've seen/kept have all remained small and behaved MUCH more skittish, living clse to their shells etc.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I recall the same. Is it in Konings book on Tangs? I can check later.


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

BioG said:


> The reasoning I read was that some exported "Dwarf Altos", kept without shells, would slowly reach somewhat normal sizes for a comp once they were, of course, exported from their portion of the lake which only allowed a shell habitat.
> 
> It was awhile back that I read this so maybe someone remembers what I'm talking about :lol: :roll:


I've also seen that somewhere. It had to be an Internet source. It's not in _Back to Nature_, and that's the only Cichlid book I have.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

It's in Konings Tanganyika Cichlids (among other places I assume).

Index lists Alto "compressiceps shell" and points to A. compressiceps.

"This appears not to be a distinct species but simply a miniature form of A. comp...When these shell-brooding A. comp are kept in the aquarium it appears that they outgrow their shells and attain sizes more common for A. comp."


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

DJRansome said:


> It's in Konings Tanganyika Cichlids (among other places I assume).
> 
> Index lists Alto "compressiceps shell" and points to A. compressiceps.
> 
> "This appears not to be a distinct species but simply a miniature form of A. comp...When these shell-brooding A. comp are kept in the aquarium it appears that they outgrow their shells and attain sizes more common for A. comp."


That's old info, as far as I know they're planning to add them as a distinct species. Mine never outgrew their shells, not even over 2 years time when they were already larger than 2". Females stayed smaller.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

True. The Konings info is from 1988. On another respected cichlid database, I read some 2007 information about a molecular analysis. Still not confirmed apparently since they say it is "suggests" they might be a distinct species.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

I've had wild sumbus for about five or six years now. They are still pretty small, growing nowhere near what you would expect for normal comps. The shape of the OP's fish pictured, looks like a normal comp to me, and not a shell. Guess we shall see over time.


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