# Losing Fish :(



## MCKP (Aug 17, 2009)

Two of my Acei have died..... all looked fine last night and then this morning I woke up to one of them half eaten(couldn't even tell what kind of fish it was at first) - Than I noticed one of the other ones kind of pale and sitting on the bottom with its mouth open.... It would move a little but kept looking strange the way it kept its mouth open.... It was not real responsive and was really easy to catch. I put it in my guppy breeder net just so I could keep an eye on it... after an hour it was swimming a little more and had closed its mouth.... I let it out.... all seemed fine until I checked on them about 20 minutes later.... there was about 5 fish attacking him, I got him out and he looked really bad. I put him in another tank but he died within 15 minutes....

I am going to test my water right now.....

What is going on??


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## MCKP (Aug 17, 2009)

Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Ph 8.0-8.2

I don't have a way to test Nitrates.

All of the Acei are a little pale. The other fish all look great. The last 4 Acei are swimming around fine but I am afraid they are just going to keep dying.


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## rarefaction (Aug 6, 2009)

MCKP, your first post was eleven days ago. You are losing fish because your tank is cycling. To top it off you have a brand new aggressive community. Disaster is at hand, I don't know how to help you. I personally would be testing ammonia and doing 10% water changes every 12 hours. And probably dosing with stress zime. (here we go again)
Edit:I may have been to quick too finish. You may have a circulation issue if your fish are gasping, but I'd suspect they would be closer to the surface. How did you acclimatise your new fish?


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## MCKP (Aug 17, 2009)

I have NO idea how but my thermometer was turned up... it was at 82.... I lowered it and it is now back down to 76 and they are all getting their color back.....

I am SO upset. I hope I didn't do any permanent damage... It had to have been from last night when I cleaned the sides of the tank, I must have moved it.

rarefraction, I did not put any fish in my tank until it had all leveled out. I made sure all the tests were where they were supposed to be prior to putting any fish in my tank. I have also had my water tested by two fish stores, and I do 20-25% changes once or twice a week. 
I could be reading wrong but your post had a bit of a demeaning 'tone' to it. I am sorry, I am just learning and while I have read alot, this is my first time owning any other fish other than goldfish, catfish, guppies and Betas. I am still learning as I go, hence why I asked on here.


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## rarefaction (Aug 6, 2009)

I did not intend to insult you, I mearly used the available facts to formulate a conclusion. I knew your bio load changed very recently. I'll remember what happened to you here. I'm glad you caught the heater before you suffered anymore losses.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would not expect fish to die due to a 82 degree temp. We often treat for ich by raising the temp higher than that for 3 weeks.

I'd keep looking for a cause. Get a nitrate test.


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## justinf67 (Jul 19, 2009)

ya, fish wont die from that temp. i live in fl, and my tank has gotten as high as 84-86 degrees for short periods. and my tank runs a little hotter since i use a massive pump for my sump. tank is usually at 82 degrees....all my fish love it, so, that wasnt the issue.

how did u acclimate the fish when you got them? explain it in detail please. u didnt mention how u did. and how long has your tank been cycling? also, u need nitrate tester, cause you can have no ammonia or nitrite, but if u have no nitrate, then somethings amiss. nitrate shows that the bacteria is doing its job. water changes keep the nitrate in check.


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## MCKP (Aug 17, 2009)

Well, cooling the tank seems to have helped as they all have their color back and seem to be doing much better.

How did I acclimate my fish?? I floated the back in the tank for approx. 20 minutes and then released them... allowing the tank water into the bag before I let them out...

The tank was cycled prior to me getting it - fish were removed 2 days prior.... I started it up 8-7-09 with catfish


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## justinf67 (Jul 19, 2009)

i would get a test for nitrates. it will give u an idea of where ur at. maybe u have a very high nitrate level in there... u seem to have the process down for acclimating, so id assume its nitrates at this point


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## kme38 (Sep 9, 2008)

I have Pseudotropheus Acei 'yellow fin', Ngara's and Kimbiri point, all three types are the most submissive and least dominant fish in my tanks. They are easy targets for more dominant fish.

When I first started out I lost a couple of Yellow Fins due to being bullied. You mentioned when you removed the fish into the Guppy net it recovered? Was this because it was protected from the bully or bullies?

Could it be a stress issue rather than your water parameters? Surely if your nitrate levels were high your other species would be suffering too?

Just a suggestion? opcorn:


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## rarefaction (Aug 6, 2009)

MCKP said:


> The tank was cycled prior to me getting it - fish were removed 2 days prior.... I started it up 8-7-09 with catfish


At any point was the tank drained to transport it? How many fish were in it before? I say this because even a cycled tank won't be instantly able to handle 10 new fish all at once. (I just pulled that number out of the air, I don't know your exact stock off hand).I agree that 82 shouldn't be deadly. My tank has been @ 81.5 for the last two weeks. You still could just have a very aggressive male in there, who is very insecure in his new enviornment. Mbuna get pale when they are submissive, so either they got the snot beat out of em, they are sick, or there's a water issue. I'm sorry, what did you say you use to test your water. What kind of test I mean. (I don't trust dip strips, or LFS employees for testing) One more thing, do you have a thermometer or just the dial on the heater? I have an aqueon that is very stable but the dial is wrong by almost ten degrees... FYI


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

The temperature did not kill the fish.

We're going to need alot of straight / specific answers in order to help.

When was this tank set up?

Were the catfish added immediately? What kind of catfish?

What is the full stock list? When were all the fish added?

How was it cycled? (It doesn't matter if it was cycled before you got it or not...Did you do anything to maintain the cycle when you set the tank up at your place?)

If fish were removed from the tank two days prior to you picking it up, the tank lost it's beneficial bacteria.

Did you transfer filter media from a well established tank with fish in it at all times?

You need to get a second opinion on those water parameters.

For now, I'd recommend initiating frequent partial water changes...

I have a really funny feeling your readings are wrong. Did you ever show a spike with these test kits? (I would also check nitrate...)


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## wheatbackdigger (May 11, 2008)

MCKP said:


> I have NO idea how but my thermometer was turned up... it was at 82.... I lowered it and it is now back down to 76 and they are all getting their color back.....
> 
> I am SO upset. I hope I didn't do any permanent damage... It had to have been from last night when I cleaned the sides of the tank, I must have moved it.
> 
> ...


Quick observation..."your thermometer was turned up to 82?" do you actually mean your heater was turned up to 82? I only ask, because you can't turn up a thermometer and a heater set at 82 does not always mean the water temp is 82. My heater is set at 72 right now and with the summer weather my tank is running 80-82F. Do you have a thermometer? What is the actual temp of the water? just curious


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## MCKP (Aug 17, 2009)

The temperature did not kill the fish.

We're going to need alot of straight / specific answers in order to help.

When was this tank set up?

The tank was set up Aug 5th

Were the catfish added immediately?

After 24 hours the readings on my tests went to zero and they were added Aug. 6th

What kind of catfish?

Bullnose Catfish..... Basic Lake Catfish

What is the full stock list?


8 Yellow Labs
4 Acei(was 6)
6 Clown Loaches
2 Fryeri(Hormoned?)
2 Red Top Ice Blues
1 Peacock Hybrid?


When were all the fish added?

Not sure of the actual dates(can find out if you really need me too) But it was Yellow Labs and Clown Loaches first, then the Acei, Then the first Fryeri and I just added the last 4

How was it cycled? (It doesn't matter if it was cycled before you got it or not...Did you do anything to maintain the cycle when you set the tank up at your place?) 

I used the filters it came with(again taken down just two days prior to me getting it) as well as the filter I had in my 10 gallon with my catfish. Checked the levels and they zero'd out after approx 24 hours.

If fish were removed from the tank two days prior to you picking it up, the tank lost it's beneficial bacteria.

Did you transfer filter media from a well established tank with fish in it at all times?

 The filter from my 10 gallon was also transferred along with the previous owners filter. Mine had had fish in it for 6 months

You need to get a second opinion on those water parameters.

For now, I'd recommend initiating frequent partial water changes...

I have a really funny feeling your readings are wrong. Did you ever show a spike with these test kits? (I would also check nitrate...)

Initially the tests were higher but leveled out within 24 hours. I had my tests read at 2 different pet stores. I do need to get a test that does Nitrates.


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## MCKP (Aug 17, 2009)

wheatbackdigger said:


> MCKP said:
> 
> 
> > I have NO idea how but my thermometer was turned up... it was at 82.... I lowered it and it is now back down to 76 and they are all getting their color back.....
> ...


You are correct, I did word it wrong. It was my heater that was turned up. My thermometer broke when a castle fell back against it 

I will be picking one up soon.

Also just wanted to say that all the fish have been doing great and all have their color back. No one is picking on anyone and they all seem healthy... also, the tests still come back as normal.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

> After 24 hours the readings on my tests went to zero and they were added Aug. 6th


But how was the tank cycled? You can't do an ammonia (fishless) cycle in 24 hours, and if you added seeded filter media upon setting up the tank the day prior to adding fish, you would have lost your beneficial bacteria within that time. The only way you can use established filter media for your bacterial load is to transfer it from one tank to another and add fish immediately. Maintaining that bacterial load is dependent on fish feeding and producing waste. Even a couple of hours without fish results in a bacterial die off. And, a tank with all "zero" readings means an uncycled tank...

I would strongly suggest reading the articles in the library regarding the nitrogen cycle, and picking up a nitrate test kit...You're going to need to monitor the water closely.



> Bullnose Catfish..... Basic Lake Catfish


This means you may have introduced disease to the tank, as well. These catfish don't belong in a mbuna tank. Were they in there all along? What size tank is this?



> 8 Yellow Labs
> 4 Acei(was 6)
> 6 Clown Loaches
> 2 Fryeri(Hormoned?)
> ...


Mbuna and peacocks/haps shouldn't be housed together, the peacocks/haps are too docile. Moving the tank and forcing them to re-establish territories may have led to increased stress in the tank, on top of everything else.

I suspect it was the cycling tank that caused your problems, but you can't rule out the possibility of disease from the catfish.

I would get some good liquid reagent test kits - if the ones you already have are opened longer than 6 months, they should be replaced.

You can't rely on fish stores to check your water - they are ready to sell you fish anytime the ones you have die, or whether your tank is ready or not... :thumb:


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## becadavies (Apr 2, 2007)

_I used the filters it came with(again taken down just two days prior to me getting it) as well as the filter I had in my 10 gallon with my catfish. Checked the levels and they zero'd out after approx 24 hours.
_

Thats your problem- The filters most likely partly if not fully died! You also cant take readings after 24hours- if you put fresh water in the tank of course they are going to read zero.... there was no waste being produced after 24 hours?

Your tank hasnt been cycled properly OR it has been comprimised by the taking down and stock increase.


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## MCKP (Aug 17, 2009)

cichlidaholic said:


> > After 24 hours the readings on my tests went to zero and they were added Aug. 6th
> 
> 
> But how was the tank cycled? You can't do an ammonia (fishless) cycle in 24 hours, and if you added seeded filter media upon setting up the tank the day prior to adding fish, you would have lost your beneficial bacteria within that time. The only way you can use established filter media for your bacterial load is to transfer it from one tank to another and add fish immediately. Maintaining that bacterial load is dependent on fish feeding and producing waste. Even a couple of hours without fish results in a bacterial die off. And, a tank with all "zero" readings means an uncycled tank...
> ...




I am still not entirely convinced that what I have are Fryeri/Haps.... I have posted pics but I am still not sure. 
I did not buy these fish... my sister did. The pet store told her they would go good with her 7 inch Jack Dempsey..... These fish are roughly 3 inches long. I took them because the pet store she went to would not take them back. I wasn't sure which fish to get rid of..... right now everyone is getting along fine.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Did you read the articles on the nitrogen cycle? That's a good place for you to start. I truly believe that is what happened here.

You can't just check the water before you add the fish. You lost your beneficial bacteria if I'm understanding you correctly and the tank sat running without ANY fish for 24 hours. Then, you added the catfish (huge waste producers) and by the time you added the cichlids, the tank was probably already in trouble. Did you monitor the water daily???


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## MCKP (Aug 17, 2009)

The tank did sit running without any fish for 2 days prior to me getting it. When I got it, I filled it up, added the filter used by the previous owner AND the filter I had running in my current tank. 
I added the catfish 24 hours later when the test came back good(2 catfish only about 3-4 inches long) I only had them in there for a couple days. I removed them and then added 2 yellow labs, 2 red zebras, 1 Kenyi and 8 Neons. The next day(after talking to my fish person) I took them back to the pet store(lol except the Neons since they had already become meals  ) and bought some yellow labs and clown loaches from her and added them.

I tested the water when I first set it up. It was a little high in Ammonia and Nitrites. I tested again in 12 hours, it was a little lower.. again at roughly 24 and it was 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites.... that is when I added the catfish. I have tested the water every two days the first week and now do it twice a week.

I have a 'Freshwater Master Test Kit' from Aquarium Pharmaceuticals...... is that a good test except for the fact it doesn't test Nitrates? I will be getting a Nitrate test probably today.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

When you first set up the tank, the ammonia and nitrites were high because of the move, most likely.

Then, the tank sat there for 24 hours with the established filters running but without fish, and you lost all of your beneficial bacteria. The bacteria _must_ have fish / waste to stay alive.

Eating the neons probably didn't help matters any...None of the fish that you have need live food - they will eat newly released fry now and then, but they aren't as big as neons. But, that would most likely cause bloat or intestinal complications, and it wouldn't happen that quickly.

Yes, API test kits are good...But if they've been open longer than 6 months, they need to be replaced.


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## rarefaction (Aug 6, 2009)

Thats odd, my API freshwater master kit does nitrates. Where did you get that kit? Could it have been tampered with?


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## MCKP (Aug 17, 2009)

No, it only has spots for High and Low range PH, GH, Nitrites and Ammonia..... But, I didn't know it needed to be replaced so frequently.... Mine is about 3 years old.


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