# Adding Cichlids



## michael21esposito (Mar 25, 2015)

I started a new tank. It's a 72 gallon bow front with a Fluval 405.
It has cycled and is doing great. I just added 6 small cichlids to it.

1 OB Peacock 
2 Demasoni (Pseudotropheus demasoni)
1 Eureka Red Peacock (Aulonocara jacobfreibergi)
1 Bi-color 500 (maulana bi color)
1 Red top (cynotilapia)

I'm going to be adding

1 Aulonocara (Rubescens) Ruby Red Peacock
1 Ngara Flametail Peacock (Aulonocara stuartgranti) 
1 taiwan reef (protomelas)
1 fire blue (Protomelas taeniolatus)

Any thought? Concerns? Suggestions?
1 sunshine chipoka (Aulonocara sp. Stuartgranti Maleri)
1 (placidochromis johnstoni)


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

What is the length and measurement of the sides of the 72G bowfront?

I think you will have trouble with demasoni and peacocks. Eureka might be too aggressive for the tank size. Taiwan and taeniolatus and johnstoni are too big for the tank size. Ngara is timid and may not color up.


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## michael21esposito (Mar 25, 2015)

It's 4 ft by 1.5 ft


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## michael21esposito (Mar 25, 2015)

"125G Aulonocara, Malawi Haps
75G Demasoni, Labs, Cyno hara, Met estherae, S Multipunctata
75G Calvus, Caudopunctatus, Juli marlieri Gombe, S Petricola
33G Neo omnicaeruleus; 33G Flameback Kisumu; 33G S Lucipinnis; 33G Hap ruby green"

Are these all in different tanks you own? 7 Tanks?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

DJRansome said:


> What is the length and measurement of the sides of the 72G bowfront?
> 
> I think you will have trouble with demasoni and peacocks. Eureka might be too aggressive for the tank size. Taiwan and taeniolatus and johnstoni are too big for the tank size. Ngara is timid and may not color up.


I've kept demasoni and peacocks together without issue in the past... most of the time it worked, but they I had adult peacocks to start with, that were 5", and the demasoni were 2.5".

I would disagree on a number of other point, Taiwan and taeniolatus will be fine in a 48" tank... johnstoni maybe, maybe not... and I've had my share of aggressive ngara.


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## Ten Tonne Tomahawk (Apr 24, 2015)

Fogelhund said:


> and I've had my share of aggressive ngara.


... I hear that.....

Mixing peacocks.... With one a Jacobfribergi? Not the smartest thing I've read. Peacocks look amazing and when you see them swimming around in their tanks at the LFS, I'm sure they look great in their individual tanks and you start visualising.It seldom works that way, I'm afraid. Combine them and you WILL end up with a peacock boss. He will look amazing. the rest will be varying degrees of less amazing, right down to 'is that a girl?' That's if they're alive.
I have a mixed male 8x2x2 and when I set it up from the get go, I had 5 peacocks. 1 x Benga, 1 x Dragons Blood, 1 x Eureka Red, 1 x Flavescant and 1 x Ngara Flame tail.
The benga is brown on brown stripes without a hint of blue anywhere. The Ngara looks great. The other 3 are dead.

The placidochromis Johnstoni is a beautiful fish, but IMO, it's size, colouration and behavior are more akin to the Nimbochromis family. While 48 inches is just big enough for it, you might find it gives your fish hassles. It may not, it may be a kitten.

P.S. for your records, the Taiwan Reef is Protomelas Steveni - Taiwan Reef.


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## michael21esposito (Mar 25, 2015)

Now I have no clue what to do lol! 
What are your thoughts on crowding the tank, do you think it would cut down on the aggression and my peacocks would stand a chance?
... and what would you consider crowding? 30?? more / less?

So there are currently 6 small Cichlids, less than 2", in my 72g. I am adding 7 more Cichlids this weekend, around the same size. I am buying them all from a local hatchery, so they are all babies.
I will be adding or would like to add, depending on your thoughts, 2 clown loaches (Chromobotia macracanthus). 
and, I am debating on either adding a snail (what's the best for this tank?) or 2 Plecos?

I am open to all your ideas...  :fish:


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## michael21esposito (Mar 25, 2015)

michael21esposito said:


> Now I have no clue what to do lol!
> What are your thoughts on crowding the tank, do you think it would cut down on the aggression and my peacocks would stand a chance?
> ... and what would you consider crowding? 30?? more / less?
> 
> ...


Oh and I plan on adding more Cichlids... I started this tank in 2007 with 6 fish, 2 of which were yellow labs, they reproduced. Once all the original fish died off naturally, the labs went to work. At one point I counted 26 - 28 labs of all different sizes in the tank, biggest 4-5". The tank sustained this and the fish thrived at this number until 2015. I had a catastrophic decease or ph spike, we never could figure it out, but everybody died in a matter of 3 weeks.

My reason to bringing that up is, one so you know why I am restarting and second, so you understand why I am open to adding 16 - 30 fish.


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## LeeAberdeen (Sep 4, 2014)

Some people will tell you not to add clown loaches, and while I think sometimes they'll have a point, I've done it in my all-male tank with great success. You can't see them in my tank pictures, but they are there, and thriving.

What I wouldn't do, though, is add them to a more traditional pH African tank, because their ideal pH is 6.5-7. A pH of 8, like my buffered smaller tank, would be way too alkaline. My unbuffered tank is 7.2-7.3, and that seems an ideal compromise between the two, so I'd make sure your water's something similar, maybe slightly above to a max of 7.4-7.5.

I feel your pain about the pH spike. Just had a crash after water mains work and measured it on the off-chance it was the cause to find it at little more than 5. Four of the Africans, three of them yellow labs, in the now-buffered tank died before I realised. If the water board had been working in your area when the fish died, that would be the probable cause.


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## michael21esposito (Mar 25, 2015)

LeeAberdeen said:


> Some people will tell you not to add clown loaches, and while I think sometimes they'll have a point, I've done it in my all-male tank with great success. You can't see them in my tank pictures, but they are there, and thriving.
> 
> What I wouldn't do, though, is add them to a more traditional pH African tank, because their ideal pH is 6.5-7. A pH of 8, like my buffered smaller tank, would be way too alkaline. My unbuffered tank is 7.2-7.3, and that seems an ideal compromise between the two, so I'd make sure your water's something similar, maybe slightly above to a max of 7.4-7.5.


My water test shows a PH of 8.2, the tank is all coral and crushed coral sand. So I don't think I can get it lower thank that. I have seen it dip under 8 but not by much... I really like those clown loaches, you really think they won't do well?

Here is what I have found on the web:


> "In its native habitat, the fish is found in water with a temperature range of 25 to 30 °C (77 to 86 °F), a pH between 5.0 and 8.0, and water hardness between 5 and 12 dH."


What other colorful recommendations are there? I know of Corydoras, but they are a bit boring looking... At least the one I have found in stores.


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## LeeAberdeen (Sep 4, 2014)

I wouldn't risk it even close to 8.2. Not sure where you got that information from, but if you did a wider search on ideal clown loach pH I think you'll find it's typically 6.5-7.5, with most saying 7 as the ideal max. I've never heard of a fish which can tolerate from 5-8, and even if it was true, I'm sure it would be a case of fish in individual areas adapting to specific localised conditions rather than all the fish in one location being happy to live in anything from strongly acidic to alkaline water. That just doesn't ring true.

You'd expect Loaches Online, for example, to know a fair bit about loaches, and they have it down at 6.5-7. You'll be condemning them to a slow death if you ignore the pH, and that's likely to bring wider disease problems to your tank through stress.

I'd forget corydoras, too. They're likely to get bullied to death by Africans.

The ideal combination for Africans is synodontis. In your size of tank something like multipunctatus would be fine.


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## michael21esposito (Mar 25, 2015)

Cool, I just looked those up and they are not bad looking... Thanks for the advise about what could happen, I'd hate to have another catastrophe on my hands.

Info came from Wiki, I am embarrassed to say, I guess I was just looking for a place that would agree with me. LOL!


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## LeeAberdeen (Sep 4, 2014)

No problem, that's why we're all here, to stop problems like that.

Aside from the pH, clown loaches would grow way too big for a 75g anyway, which I presume is 4ft or maybe even less? They're a foot or more long fully grown and chunky with it.

Synodontis Multipunctatus are great - you'll need a minimum of five, and might not see them much, but they're great at hoovering your tank and look fabulous on the rare occasions they do decide to come out.


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## michael21esposito (Mar 25, 2015)

Cool, Thank Again..

Any thoughts on these questions I posed earlier:



> What are your thoughts on crowding the tank, do you think it would cut down on the aggression and my peacocks would stand a chance?
> ... and what would you consider crowding? 30?? more / less?
> 
> So there are currently 6 small Cichlids, less than 2", in my 72g. I am adding 7 more Cichlids this weekend, around the same size. I am buying them all from a local hatchery, so they are all babies.
> ...


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Is the 1.5' on the sides or in the bowed-out middle?

The proper level of overcrowding might be 10 individuals depending on your answer. I would not stock clown loaches. BN plecos survive better in my tanks than snails. Except the pesty snails that is.

How will you be sure to get males if you are buying babies?


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## michael21esposito (Mar 25, 2015)

It's 1.5 on the sides and 2ft in the middle.

Based on the advice I received here. I will not be stocking loaches. i do like the Plecos so that works...

I am not exactly sure how he knows... But I know i can bring them back if I need. The hatchery is local.

So you think 10 cichlids is the max?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

For 48 x 18 I like 12 adults that mature < 6". I think the all-male article in the Cichlid-forum Library suggests 18. I tried that and didn't like it. I also had an 8" fish in there and didn't like that either. Are you doing all haps and peacocks?

Actually I have 8 tanks...the 38G exceeded the character limit for a signature. I have to make some updates anyway.


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## michael21esposito (Mar 25, 2015)

I'm not exactly sure yet... I have an empty 125G and just haven't set it up yet. Is it much more work to manage 2 tanks?

I'd like to do a lake set up in the 125 and have some exotics in there. Like Jack Dempseys and a cyphotilapia frontosa, and Leopoldi or Hystrix stingrays??

These are pretty cool and the Pleco is awesome too. i'd love to add that to my 75g... Not sure of all the logistics tho, that's whyI'm asking...


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## Mike_G (Nov 8, 2011)

I'd avoid normal plecos and get bristlenose plecos


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Even bristlenose plecos can be killed by cichlids 25% of the time upon introduction. I would not do anything exotic.

Rays need really huge tanks and I always thought it was species only for them.

Frontosa are better in groups and I'm thinking a JD might not be a good tankmate.


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## Ten Tonne Tomahawk (Apr 24, 2015)

michael21esposito said:


> I'm not exactly sure yet... I have an empty 125G and just haven't set it up yet. Is it much more work to manage 2 tanks?
> 
> I'd like to do a lake set up in the 125 and have some exotics in there. Like Jack Dempseys and a cyphotilapia frontosa, and Leopoldi or Hystrix stingrays??
> 
> These are pretty cool and the Pleco is awesome too. i'd love to add that to my 75g... Not sure of all the logistics tho, that's whyI'm asking...


I don't think I have ever seen or heard of a mix that is less likely to survive, let alone thrive. Do some research on that Ray and find its final dimensions. You may be horrified. Fresh water rays get big and need lots of room to move. Certainly a lot more than a 125 can offer. I get that they are out of this world cool, but totally inappropriate for your tank. As a plus, they have very little in the way of defenses and if not the Frontosa, I'd lay money on the Dempsey getting to the stage where he attacks the ray.
As far as a cleaner catfish, avoid a pleco for your tank size, they get to 18 inches over time and **** more than any living creature known to man. Your tank will have 100 inch long string turds wrapped around things like Christmas tinsel. While the Bristlenose also does, it's scaled back. I have heard some members say that their cichlids have plucked eyes out of bristlenose catfish. I have never seen this happen. 
Even the Dempsey and Frontosa like different water. Bear in mind, the Dempsey might, MIGHT hit 9 inches if it's lucky. The Frontaosa has the ability to pass the 20 inch mark. Who's winning that fight?
You have 4 groups that don't, in theory at least, play well together.
1. plecos and large armour plated catfish.
2. Central American medium aggression cichlid
3. Tanganyikan Cichlid
4. Fresh water sting ray
A lot of folks successfuly integrate plecos with their cichlids, but your tank is too small, IMO for most. Also, most of the L number catfish are going to be too expensive and vulnerable to your cichlids. As I said, Bristlenose would be my bet.
While it is possible to mix South American and African cichlids as far as water parameters go, doing so comes with other risks and is usually a short term prospect at best. Most American cichlids simply out grow their African cousins. (You do seem to have found an exception that makes me out as a liar, though!!!) 
As for that Ray, it would need tin foil barbs, silver dollars etc. Things that are docile and faster than it. It is a fish that needs to be the focus of a tank, not just something thrown in. Again, ultra cool factor Vs function. With the rays, extra care needs to be taken with tank mates. I can't imagine they are any cheaper for you, than they are for me. For me, a $900 fish would be no where near anything that could harm it.


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