# Problems with Prime!



## Mike Mirto (Feb 14, 2008)

You might think I'm crazy for saying this but I think Prime actually INCREASES the nitrates. My nitrate levels are always through the roof. I don't overfeed and I do regular water changes. Recently, I tore down my tank to refinish the stand and canopy. I saved about half the water that was in the tank, so half was new water. After adding the Prime, buffer and cichlid salt, I tested the water. The nitrates were still sky high. Out of curiosity, I tested my tap water. It was free of nitrates. I'm scratching my head on this one... :-? By the way...my setup is a 75gal with about 10 cichlids and 2 pleco. Certainly not overstocked. :?


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## elroach (Oct 26, 2007)

So take about a 5 gallon bucket and fill. Test for nitrates, add prime and test a few minutes later. Let us know. This is interesting.


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## Mike Mirto (Feb 14, 2008)

Well, so far I've waisted 4 test strips.  Water was fine after Prime, lake salt and Malawi buffer. :-? I'm keeping the water 'till tomorrow and I'll test once more. opcorn:


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I don't think Prime does anything to increase nitrates. What kind of filters are you running and what's the 
maintenance schedule like?



> By the way...my setup is a 75gal with about 10 cichlids and 2 pleco. Certainly not overstocked.


Depends on the cichlids and plecos and their sizes. Both are capable of cranking out a high organic 
load on a system that would then be converted to nitrate. Nitrate is just the end product of the nitrogen 
cycle. For Prime to feed that cycle, it would have to somehow multiply the organics that feed that cycle. 
I'm not a chemist or biologist, but don't see how any chemical additive could do that unless it carried 
some organic load of it/s own.


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## Mike Mirto (Feb 14, 2008)

3 of the cichlids are full size(5-6 inches) and one of the plecos is about 7". The rest of them are mid-growth. I'm running two Aquaclear 50 powerheads with sponge filters and two Magnum 350 canister filters. That should be enough filtration right?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Yes, I'd think so. More interested in cleaning schedules. How often do you open and clean the 
canisters? Leaving them go for long periods could contribute to high nitrate levels. Moving poop from 
the tank to a filter doesn't do anything to reduce organics in the system. They'll continue to break down 
into nitrate until removed from the system by removal from the filter. Mechanical filtration doesn't happen
when the stuff is pulled into the filters. It happens when the filter pads are cleaned. Until then, it's like 
sweeping a pile of dirt from one place in a room to another where it can't be seen. It's still in the room. 
It's easy to think of filters as isolation chambers, but they're not. All of the tank water is coming from the 
filter which has just passed through all of the gunk, disolving it and carrying those dissolved organics 
back into the tank. Makes the water look clear, but nitrates can't be seen, so it can mislead into 
thinking that it's clean. Highly toxic water can be crystal clear. Best way to reduce nitrates is to remove 
organics from wherever they can be found, filters, substrate, etc. Also keep in mind that the more you 
feed the fish, the more you feed the nitrogen cycle who's end product is nitrate. Comes back to not 
overstocking or overfeeding, regular partial water changes, and removal of organics from substrate 
and filters. All combined will keep nitrates in line.


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## Mike Mirto (Feb 14, 2008)

I do a 40% water change about every 2 weeks and clean the canisters roughly every 2 months. I alternate the canister cleanings so not to clean both simultaneously. I figure this saves as much biological media as possible. There are some plants in the tank but not enough to handle the nitrates. I was thinking.....I have a UV sterilizer from a pond I used to have. Would this help with the nitrates or just clear the water?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

A UV won't reduce nitrates.

I'd up the water changes to weekly and see if that helps. That'd be the easiest first thing to try. Of course,
vacuum the substrate well while you're at it. That may be all you need to change. And doesn't cost 
anything really, just more work.

The second thing I'd try is cleaning one canister every two weeks, so they each get done once per 
month. Also no cost, just more work. Use your judgment on that one because it depends on how 
much you find when you open it up if this is worth it or not.

The pleco's could be contributing quite a bit to the problem. You might consider keeping just one or 
trading both for smaller pleco's like the bristlenose. Hard to part with fish though, I know. That's why I 
suggested trying the other things first.


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

did I read correctly that you're testing for nitrates using test strips? Throw them away and get a liquid test kit. Shake both bottles for several minutes and then test your water out of the tap, before and after a water change. That way you're working from accurate results if you decide you need to be doing someting different.


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## Steve St.Laurent (Oct 2, 2008)

You said that you tore the tank down - how long was the tank down and what did you do with the filters during that time? Did you clean them first? Leave the water in them? Empty them out?


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## Mike Mirto (Feb 14, 2008)

I had the tank out of commission for three days. I put the fish, plants,ornaments and all the water I could fit into a 55 gal tote with one of the powerheads and one canister(uncleaned). I left the water in the other canister I wasn't using. Before setting the tank back up I filled it half way with water, put in the gravel (florite) and swished it around with my hand to suspend all the muck. I used the other canister to clear the water which took about 45 min. I did this 6 or 7 times until the gravel wouldn't release very much dirt. Last, I transferred the remaining water and everything else back into the tank.


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## SLIGHTLY STOOPID (Dec 23, 2004)

> I saved about half the water that was in the tank


= Nitrates


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## alicem (Jul 26, 2007)

I have to ask some questions to be clear:


Mike Mirto said:


> I had the tank out of commission for three days. I put the fish, plants,ornaments and all the water I could fit into a 55 gal tote with one of the powerheads and one canister(uncleaned). *I left the water in the other canister I wasn't using*.


So, this the canister you did the next part with?



Mike Mirto said:


> Before setting the tank back up I filled it half way with water, put in the gravel (florite) and swished it around with my hand to suspend all the muck. I used the other canister to clear the water which took about 45 min. I did this 6 or 7 times until the gravel wouldn't release very much dirt. Last, I transferred the remaining water and everything else back into the tank.


And you cleaned this canister afterwards, _before _putting it back in use on your tank?
Or did it sit closed up not running for days?

If one filter is newly cleaned and the second one is what you had running on the holding tote, 
I agree with Prov356, your first line of defense is doing partial water changes until you see reduced nitrates.

Also, as Prov356 suggested, you may have to step up your canister maintenance, after the cleaned one has had time to catch up.
You can be the judge on that by monitoring your nitrates for a while to see what works for your setup.


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## SLIGHTLY STOOPID (Dec 23, 2004)

So that's settled. It was not the Prime that spiked the nitrates. I've used it a lot and Prime is a great product.


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## Mike Mirto (Feb 14, 2008)

I broke down and bought a liquid nitrate test kit. I also cleaned both canisters(except the ceramic media). It's been a day now so I tested the water. Can you guess my results? 90 ppm! I can't win. Anyone want a nitrate colonization tank? :?


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## noobdood (Jul 19, 2008)

My bottle of Prime smells bad.


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## Steve St.Laurent (Oct 2, 2008)

It's supposed to.



> Frequently Asked Questions regarding Prime:
> Q. My Prime smells like it went bad, is it ok to use it?
> 
> A. Yes. While Prime has a very distinct odor that is similar to sulfur, this is completely normal and does not affect the performance of the product. The presence of small black specks is also normal.


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## alicem (Jul 26, 2007)

Mike Mirto said:


> I broke down and bought a liquid nitrate test kit. I also cleaned both canisters(except the ceramic media). It's been a day now so I tested the water. Can you guess my results? 90 ppm! I can't win. Anyone want a nitrate colonization tank? :?


  sheesh, Mike!
Are you shaking each of the bottles 
(shake bottle #1 for several seconds and bottle #2 for _30 seconds_) 
and shake the test tube , with the cap on, after additions 
(the second bottle addition, shake the test tube with the cap on for a_ full 60 seconds_)?
:-? 
Alicem


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## Mike Mirto (Feb 14, 2008)

:roll: lol Yes I'm shaking till my arm hurts! :lol:


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## alicem (Jul 26, 2007)

Well then, all I can say is: 
If your nitrates are 90ppm, partial water changes are your friend.

I think I'd go with 30-40% daily.

It may take a while, but you'll want to get the nitrates to 40ppm or lower.

I know it's a drag, I've been battling some hazy water issues in my 90G for a while now and I'm tired of it. 
But, things are improving and they will for you too, if you keep after it.

Then, when nitrates are more reasonable, you can fine tune your routine maintenance.
Once you have it figured out you'll enjoy the fish tank experience more.
:thumb: 
Alicem


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Are you sure there isn't a dead fish or a clump of waste hiding in the tank some where?

Usually when I have one of these situations that simply defies everything I understand... I later find an unknown cause and everything makes sense in the end... the nitrates have to be coming from somewhere... :?


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## Mike Mirto (Feb 14, 2008)

Well, I've got a wet arm again! :lol: Been digging around in the tank to install new bubblers and tubing. No dead fish but I noticed that the substrate is still releasing alot of crud into the water. So, that said, I'm vacuuming again and doing a 30% water change. I also added more plants. Can't hurt. Thanks to all for your input(and sarcasm)!


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Just to mention... a number of years ago I switched from gravel to sand... with sand we don't have that problem... you may want to consider changing over...


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## Timeless R1 (Oct 14, 2005)

If you have a gravel bottom, I would suggest getting a python cleaning system and use it to completely clean your gravel out. I'm sure you have about 2 inches of fish [email protected] in that gravel. I used to have an oscar and couldnt believe the amount of stuff i cleaned out of the gravel. you have to really get the python down through the gravel almost to the bottom glass and you will see what has been sitting down there. If you've jsut been using a small lttle 1/2 tube it would take forever to clean the gravel.


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## Mike Mirto (Feb 14, 2008)

How come crud doesn't get into sand?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Mike Mirto said:


> How come crud doesn't get into sand?


It does. Only way it wouldn't is if you had fish that never sift or dig into the sand. But, if you 
have sand, often it's because you have sifters or diggers.


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## Britnick (Apr 18, 2008)

I'll ask this, just in case and no-one else appears to have.

How do you clean your filters?


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## Mike Mirto (Feb 14, 2008)

I disassemble it, run a skinny brush through the pipes and hoses, scrub and rinse the screen, impeller and inside wall of the canister and insert a new pad every other cleaning. As for the ceramic media, I lightly swish it around in a bowl of tank water.


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## Steve St.Laurent (Oct 2, 2008)

If that cannister sat not running for 3 days then I'm pretty sure that all of the ceramic media in it is simply full of dead bacteria - hence VERY high nitrates. Your bacteria needs oxygen and food (ammonia, nitrites) to survive and it would be long dead after 3 days of not running. I don't think you can leave a canister off for more than a few hours without starting to lose bacteria.


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## Mike Mirto (Feb 14, 2008)

Sorry. I forgot to tell you. the one I left off for three days has argonite/crushed coral in it(as a buffer). I never leave the one with the ceramic off.


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## Steve St.Laurent (Oct 2, 2008)

Since your well understocked and the Magnum 350 is good for up to 100 gallons why don't you try taking that canister that was turned off for a while off. Run it into a bucket with water to keep it running as it is. Then do water changes on your tank and see if your nitrates start going down. I'm betting you have a ton of dead bacteria in that filter that is causing your high nitrates.


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## Mike Mirto (Feb 14, 2008)

I just cleaned both cans, vacuumed and did a 40% 2 days ago. Still 80ppm


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Mike Mirto said:


> I just cleaned both cans, vacuumed and did a 40% 2 days ago. Still 80ppm


Do the water changes every day. Test right before and after. If you change out 40% of the water, then 
nitrates will be reduced by 40%. If your tests don't reflect that, then there's something wrong with the 
tests or the way the results are being read. Assuming the tap water has 0 nitrates, then changing out 
40% of the water *HAS *to reduce nitrates by 40%.

This also isn't something that's going to be resolved quickly by a few water changes and filter cleanings. 
At least not permanently. Nitrates are the end product of the bioload. The bioload comes from the 
stocking and feeding and maintenance of the tank. Work with this a while and you'll get a handle on it.


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## corrie22 (Oct 11, 2008)

Mike, stop beating your head up against the wall.

It's your test kit and the Prime.

Other people have that same problem.

Follow this link and go down to posts #12 and #13

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/water ... trate.html

.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Iâ€™ve found that if there is a major nitrate sourceâ€¦ such as a dead fish or a really nasty filter full of wasteâ€¦ then a 40% water change will not reduce the nitrates by 40%...

Under normal conditions a 40% water change will reduce nitrates by 40%...

This is one of the main reasons a few pages back, I was asking if you had a dead fish or bulk of waste hidden somewhere.

There has to be a reason/sourceâ€¦ keep plucking away and before long youâ€™ll be asking yourself, â€œwhy didnâ€™t I realize that days ago?!â€


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## Mike Mirto (Feb 14, 2008)

I will keep at it. Thanks to all that have given me input. It is *GREATLY* appreciated! 8)


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> then a 40% water change will not reduce the nitrates by 40%...


It will if he tests before and after the water change like I said. Just trying to help him understand and 
determine if he's interpreting the tests properly. Water changes won't solve the problem, only deal with 
the end result of the problem. The source is some organic in the system . Like we've been saying, it 
could be dead fish, dirty filters, dirty substrate, or whatever, but Mike, you've got to find that and deal with 
it. Then the nitrates will go down via water changes and stay in control. If you're doing major water 
changes and nitrates are bouncing back with a vengeance, then you still haven't dealt with the source 
of those nitrates.


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## Mike Mirto (Feb 14, 2008)

Could using flourite for my substrate contribute to high nitrate?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Mike Mirto said:


> Could using flourite for my substrate contribute to high nitrate?


No, fluorite is a mineral, not organic.


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

I'm just jumping in now (with out reading everything) but I suggest taking your water sample to your LFS and see if they come up with the same results as your test kit.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I was curious also as to the kit that you're using and how you're differentiating 80ppm from 90ppm. Most kits I've seen aren't able to do that.


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## Steve St.Laurent (Oct 2, 2008)

How about trying to eliminate things one at a time and see if you can discover what the problem is? Take one of the canister filters off and run it into a bucket of water and test the nitrates on that bucket after a day. If they aren't going up rapidly then move that canister back to your tank and put the other canister into the bucket and test again after a day. That will either eliminate either of the canisters as your problem or you'll know it's one of them. If both of the canisters check out fine then you'll know it's something inside of the tank itself generating the nitrates. Compared to what you've been going through you'd at least have a couple things eliminated after two days.


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## Mike Mirto (Feb 14, 2008)

I was using test strips to test nitrates but someone here told me they weren't reliable, so I bought the liquid type..... And yes, I'm shaking everything for 60 seconds. My reading of 80ppm was approximate but at least that or higher.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

You could always buy the smallest (ie cheaper ) bottle of prime as a "control" and see if that ends up with the same results - who knows, you may have a funny batch!? Although I'd be surprised.

Steve StLaurent's idea is sound IMO.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Mike Mirto said:


> I was using test strips to test nitrates but someone here told me they weren't reliable, so I bought the liquid type..... And yes, I'm shaking everything for 60 seconds. My reading of 80ppm was approximate but at least that or higher.


My guess is that you started with something around a few hundred ppm, and it's just never been 
brought down. It's not bouncing back, it's just never come down through dilution, meaning water 
changes. Keep doing the water changes *daily *until you get something you can reliably read under 
40ppm. Anything over about 40 on those cards is hard to discern and what you're reading as 80 could 
very well be 200. And if you test right before and read it as 80, then do a 40% water change, test right 
after and it still looks like 80, then proves my point.


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## Mike Mirto (Feb 14, 2008)

I'd imagine I'd have to put quite a few plants in there to put a dent in the nitrate level, right?


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## SLIGHTLY STOOPID (Dec 23, 2004)

BenHugs said:


> I'm just jumping in now (with out reading everything) but I suggest taking your water sample to your LFS and see if they come up with the same results as your test kit.


Do this.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

I think it sounds like Prov is on the right track...

Since you discovered this problem... how much water have you changed total?

Be cautious taking the water to the LFS and trusting their numbers. I know of LFS's that use the same dip strips that we tell you aren't reliable.

I would be doing 50% water changes as frequently as possible (2 hours apart if practical) unti lthe nitrates were under control, or somewhere around 40ppm. This will be low enough to not harm the fish and will also be at a level that you can better guage what is happening. As Prov explained, it is very difficult to tell the difference between 100 ppm & 200 ppm... but it's quite easy to tell the difference between 20 & 40... or even 40 & 80...

If you do an extremely aggressive water change regime I would also keep an eye on the PH. PH will often drop/crash during a nitrate spike due to the large amount of dissolved organics (a lot like the way driftwood [organic] lowers PH).


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## Mike Mirto (Feb 14, 2008)

That would explain why I've been having difficulties keeping my PH up.


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