# Cheap wet/dry sump



## Hoosier Tank

So I've been trying to come up with idea's for a DIY sump for my up coming 180g tank project. I have read all the posts that my various searches can find, all revolve around a tank or sheet acrylic boxes. I took a look around the garage and found a 122qt / 115ltr Sterilite storage bin with lid and a 5 gallon bucket. What do you think of this?

I would use egg crate to keep the blue backed prefilter off from the Pot scrubbis, drill the bottom of the bucket with drain holes and set it in a tray that has a poly-fill mat for the final filtration that has an eggcrate bottom. The bucket and bin lids would have holes large enough to fit past the pipe union would would allow me to remove the lids to change the prefilter and then lift the bucket to change out the poly-fill final filter without desturbing the bio medial.
I could support the Bin sides from bowing with 2 x4's integrated into the stand for if it fills from a tank drainage in a power outage.
Am I a crack-pot? :lol:


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## jwal

here's what i did with my sterilite container for extra support


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## redstallion02

I would say it is identical to mine. I have it set up on my 125g 5 gallon bucket, but I used the scrubbies that people use in the shower for the prefilter. Then a piece of plexiglass with holes drilled in it. Then bio balls, then more holes drilled into the bottom of the bucket.

I did put a grate down on the bottom of the storage bin since I have heard rumors of the heaters in the bins actually melting them. That way the heaters never actually are touching the bin.


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## Hoosier Tank

*jwal*, I like the framework idea
*redstallion02*, Good point about the heater 
Thanks for the input!


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## jwal

take lots of pics if you build it  we need more sterilite sump topics :dancing:


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## Leviathan25

Question, I'm no expert as I've never built one but plan to soon, the question is would you allow the setup to run a good month or so without the prefilter so as not to allow the prefilter to build much in the way of bene bio, so when changing or cleaning it not to disturb the cycle as much. It's my understanding a tank will only produce so much bene bio based on tank size and fish quantity and conditions ,so this would let the bio section collect the bulk of it first. I understand everything will collect it, substrate, rocks, etc.. Whatcha think??
.
.
wait a sec, did you say 122qrt? roughly 30 gal container with a 5 gal bucket? container to big?


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## Hoosier Tank

Leviathan25 said:


> Question, I'm no expert as I've never built one but plan to soon, the question is would you allow the setup to run a good month or so without the prefilter so as not to allow the prefilter to build much in the way of bene bio, so when changing or cleaning it not to disturb the cycle as much. It's my understanding a tank will only produce so much bene bio based on tank size and fish quantity and conditions ,so this would let the bio section collect the bulk of it first. I understand everything will collect it, substrate, rocks, etc.. Whatcha think??
> .
> .
> wait a sec, did you say 122qrt? roughly 30 gal container with a 5 gal bucket? container to big?


Good point about the Prefilter accumulating the Beneficial Bacteria, I am interested in an answer. However, I also don't want my pot-scrubbies to buid-up with waste and need cleaned as soon as things get cycled.

Yes 122qt or 30.5 gallons. I don't think the container is too big, actually on the small size for a 180 tank. Since it is simply a resivour for the filtered water (sump) others have posted 1/4 to 1/2 the tank size... cant imagine buying a 90g for a sump!
I also drew up a similar sketch with a 5g bucket on each side and the pump in the middle. This would give me twice the bio media capacity, I could even add it on later if needed with another HOB overflow and minimal plumbing mods.


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## Leviathan25

> Good point about the Prefilter accumulating the Beneficial Bacteria, I am interested in an answer. However, I also don't want my pot-scrubbies to buid-up with waste and need cleaned as soon as things get cycled.


you could have a regular sponge prefilter like the ones on a powerhead on the intake side in the tank, until the bene bact is built up then add the bucket pre filter


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## Bigmoo

Hello Every1,

Should first introduce myself I feel. I have been a long time reader and looker and want to thank all of you for the valuable info during my years of fish keeping.

I made a very similar sump for my 75E tank except I drilled 3/16th holes in the bottom of my 5gal bucket and set it atop of eggcrate. I also used an inverted shower drain for the introduction of the water. My biggest problem was the wasted filter media due to the water mainly concentrated in a six inch diameter at the center. I tried to "wrap" the egg crate dividers I used with vinyl screen to help diffuse the water but did not seem to help much. Non-the-less, it was quite effective, just seemed to be less than cost effective. I have since created a DIY canister filter inside of my sump that has worked better than I imagined. I will try and post some pics soon if any1 is interested along with some photos of my tank.


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## Leviathan25

> I have since created a DIY canister filter


you bet your bottom feeding crayfish we'd want to see that!!!!!!


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## Hoosier Tank

Bigmoo said:


> I have since created a DIY canister filter inside of my sump that has worked better than I imagined. I will try and post some pics soon if any1 is interested along with some photos of my tank.


Love to see it, please.
Inside you say... hummm.


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## dreday

hoosier the idea behind a sump 1/4 or 1/2 the size of your tank is to increase water volume. it makes it less likely to have foul ups or problems. also it makes maintenance more spread out.

but your design looks good. i am thinking about making a new sump that is larger than the one i have now. it is acrylic and came with my 75g. but i think i could fit a 30g tub under it and get more filtration into it. i like your design and am going to mull it over. :thumb:


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## Hoosier Tank

Found a larger 55g sterilite container and a large square plastic strainer for under the bucket in housewares dept. at Wal-mart tonight :dancing:


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## cholile

just marking the thread so i can follow along and, at some point, give it a shot myself.


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## Hoosier Tank

OK it's been a while but the whole tank build has taken a while as well.
Here are the pics of what I have so far.
*One 5 gallon bucket with 1 1/2" holes drilled in the bottom.*


*I bought two lids, the first one I made my drip plate out of by drilling 1/4" holes then cut off the outer rim so it would fit insto the mouth of the bucket.*



*The second lid, I cut a hole in the center for the 1 1/2" PVC Male and Female couplings*


*Next fill the bucket with the Bio media (pot-scrubbies)*


*Wrap the drip tray with a 12" x 12" piece of blue backed air filter media and insert it in the bucket*


*Install PVC fittings into bucket lid and install*


*Cut a hole in the lid of a Sterilite container that is large enough for the bucket to fit in yet the rim around the top where the handle is doesn't pass through.*


*Install bucket into the container / sump*


I still need to cut an additional hole for the return hose and electrical cord from pump and they will be on the opposite side on top of the Sterilite lid. Mine will be large enough for a 3/4" PVC union to fit though to disconnect hose from piping for easy sump cleaning. but that can be suited for your application.


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## cholile

Thanks for the update. I'm curious how loud (or quiet) these types of DIY sumps are, especially the flow of the water into the bucket.


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## boredatwork

This is very similar to tannable's design. However, with the way this one was done - doesn't it defeat one of the advantages of a wet/dry? Another way to ask it is how does this differ from a large volume cheap cannister (which, by the way, is not a bad thing)?

My point is that a wet/dry benefits from the exposure of the water to air for oxygenation, both for the fishies and for the bacteria. But if its "sealed off" then you are limiting that oxygenation - so to me it becomes a DIY cannister, not wet/dry. Of course the advantage of closing it up is that its quieter. But I could be missing something.

Again, I am not saying its a bad thing. I think its a great design, and I already plan doing one like this after seeing tannables post. I just think this is more like a cannister than a wet/dry.


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## boredatwork

*Hoosier Tank*, what are the dimensions of that blue Sterilite container? Unfortunately the way I made my stand I have a very tight space underneath, so I am having trouble finding one I can use.


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## cholile

I think you're mistaken about how a wet-dry works. Look at all the manufactured ones and you'll see there is no more access to 'outside' air than this design. The theory behind wet-dry is that the bacteria is wet but not fully submersed in water and his set up achieves it. If the sponges are not covered in water then by definition they have air around them. It isn't fully sealed and air can more than easily find its way in.

Looks like a great set up to me, but I am curious if it is noisy at all.


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## Hoosier Tank

Thanks for the intrest all...
The size of the Sterilite container is 32L x 19W x 16H (30g). The center opening in my 6' x 2' stand has a two center uprights at 18" centers from the ends giving it 3 sections 18 - 36 - 18. So with the width of the 2x4 posts it fit in the center just right. I just boxed it in on the sides for support in case of it filling with water.
Yes I found tannables post after my original drawing and tweeked mine a little after seeing it, for example, the bucket was too tall to fit inside the tote and I also omit the bottom filter tray. But I liked how he used the rim of the bucket to support it on the tank he used. The bottom of the bucket is about 2" off the floor of the container so I can add the strainer and filter floss for final filtration if needed later.
And my interpritation (right or wrong) of a wet / dry is that the bio media is not submerged but the water flows through it. For example take a look at the wet /drys sumps like the Megaflows, they are an acrylic box with partitions to divide it into bio / mechanical / sump compartments. Mine will be far from air tight, but hopefully be "contained" :lol: 
But hey if we want to clasify it as a canister / sump thats fine with me! :thumb:


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## kingpoiuy

I used a large ice cream bucket to diffuse my water (holes in the bottom) and i built a stand with PVC to sit the 5 gal bucket on (about half a foot tall). I also set this all in a 33 gallon tub just like hoosier's.

Ill have to get some pics.


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## boredatwork

cholile said:


> I think you're mistaken about how a wet-dry works. Look at all the manufactured ones and you'll see there is no more access to 'outside' air than this design.


The more I though about it the more I find myself agreeing with your statement.

But that leads more to question the advantages of a wet/dry - other than high capacity filter. If there is no (or very little) airflow what is the advantage of a wet/dry filter to an exclusively wet filter.

For instance if you had a wet/dry/sump that was completed covered with almost air exchange - would that be better than a cannister with similar media capacity and water flow? I would guess not, as I am pretty sure the advantage to a wet dry is the dry part - but contingent upon oxygen exchange.

I think its a stupid point, but now I think I'm more confused than I was before.


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## Hoosier Tank

I don't think you are way off base in your tinking... I maybe not using oxygen to the best advantage by limiting the exchange, but I also think my set-up is far from air-tight. Afterall there will be air in all compartments and a yet to be cut hole in the container lid for the pump hose / power cord.
Maybe I should plumb an air stone into the bottom of the bucket...


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## dreday

i think the air in the sump helps the bacteria grow more abundant. sumps usually can handle heavy bio loads due this fact.

a canister can handle heavy loads as well, but they usually get clogged which slows down the turn over. a sump can get clogged as well but i think it is easier to change out the floss in the tray then to take apart a canister.

but the other benefit to a sump is that the water gets more fresh oxygen into the water than a canister. with canisters you usually have to add a bubble maker or a spray bars to help create gas exchange. the sump takes care of this from the falling water. a canister can not due this except through a surface agitation which can also be done with the return on a sump.


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## Mcdaphnia

Cheap.

Two of the cheapest DIY wet/dry filters I've seen will start with this one. Parts: a plastic kiddie pool, plastic shower curtain, some PVC pipe, plastic bread trays (like the bakery delivers bread to supermarkets in), an all plastic rotating lawn sprinkler. Stack the trays on a PVC framework in the middle of the kiddie pool. Install the sprinkler up side down over the trays which you fill with the DIY media of your choice. Attach the shower curtain to the top of the frame and tuck in the bottom edges to return any overspray to the kiddie pool "sump". Works best if you have a basement or closet one floor below the display tank.

The other works on a concrete slab floor. Jackhammer out a few square yards of floor. Dig down three or four feet. Line the excavation with a pond liner. A huge sump and good size wet/dry can fit in a small space under a large tank, or be connected to a whole fish room of tanks.


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## cholile

> But that leads more to question the advantages of a wet/dry - other than high capacity filter. If there is no (or very little) airflow what is the advantage of a wet/dry filter to an exclusively wet filter.


I think your confusion stems from the fact that when you look at it you don't see too many holes and so you're wondering how 'fresh' air is getting in the area. But it doesn't take much for air to find its way in and out of the area. Just the little holes themselves and the water itself elsewhere touching air allows new air in the area even if it is often 'mixed' with the water.


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## Hoosier Tank

Mcdaphnia said:


> The other works on a concrete slab floor. Jackhammer out a few square yards of floor. Dig down three or four feet. Line the excavation with a pond liner.


WOW  
I don't think I'd be posting here much after that because SWMBO would KILL ME! :lol:


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## boredatwork

cholile said:


> I think your confusion stems from the fact that when you look at it you don't see too many holes and so you're wondering how 'fresh' air is getting in the area. But it doesn't take much for air to find its way in and out of the area. Just the little holes themselves and the water itself elsewhere touching air allows new air in the area even if it is often 'mixed' with the water.


I thought about it some more, and I realized thats half of my problem. The other thing is that I was thinking instantaneously not figuring in the concept of time. So even if there is little airflow at any instance, there still is airflow, so over time its effective.

But now I am thinking this is an obvious area of improvement - to create more airflow inside the wet/dry media container (ignoring the sump).

Theres no way to easily calculate this, but the most effective wet/dry would have a larger "fresh air" supply than the oxygen consumption of the the bio media.

This would make the perfect advertising gimmick.


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## Awugod

Also think of it like this; cold air is more dense than warm air. The colder air (air inside your house) will rush in through all the cracks and crevices of the sump were warmer air is escaping. To test this theory, turn the A/C on in your house and shut all the bedroom doors, let it run like this for a few minutes. Then crouch down and feel the colder air flowing out from under the gap between the door and floor.

The way I look at it, this is same principle in how "fresh" air gets into a sump that is sealed, but not 100% sealed (like the ones discussed in this post).


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## Joels fish

Looks good man, I used a similar container for my 125s sump. I used a stackable container rather than a bucket though for the "filter" part. It works really good even if it looks a little funny. I can't see any reasons you'll have problems with yours from the looks of it. Makes mine look down right Ghetto.


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## Hoosier Tank

Here is the final poduct. It has been up and running for 3 weeks now. I transfered 4 potscrubbies and some filter floss from my other tanks and mixxed in with the new scrubbies.
Amonia has consistantly been less that .25ppm and the Nitrites are zero with minimal nitrates at less than 20ppm. Of course I have a minimal bioload so far with only 14 young adult Mbuna.
Inside the tote is a CA4000 pump and a 500w titanium heater from Catalina Aquariums mounted with their suction cups onto a piece of scrap plexiglass to keep from coming in contact with the tote itself. very quiet and temps are a solid 80 degrees all through the tank.
Oh and don't let the baseboard heater fool you, it hasn't been on in years and the tank now hides it from view.


I used Bulldogg7's skimmerless overflow I found in our library.
Here is the Bare bones start with the original u-tubes I soon replaced when 3 fish wound up getting clear down to the sumps drip tray.


Side view


Top view showing lid to help keep things quiet.


Supreme King Siphon tubes I found at the LFS that have strainer slots and caps to prevent fish being getting sucked into overflow and taking a ride down the hose to the filter bucket.


Here are pics from earlier of the returns via UGJ, on the top right is a nozzel that is half submerged to provide surface aggitation and act as a siphon break. There is another nozzel 1/2 way down the same black pipe feeding the loop.




All said and done, I am extremely happy with this project and would be glad to answer questions anyone may have or assist in any way I can!


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## dreday

i am about to build the same thing!!!!!

i have a 37g container(same color) and same size. going to use the 5g bucket also.

now does your 5g bucket rest on the lid or does it sit on the bottom or on a stand on the bottom?
i have enough room to sit the bucket on a stand of some sort(probably with eggcrate and pvc or some plastic legs) and do not really trust it hanging on the lid.

and for the overflow, did you build it or buy it and modify it?? it looks nice. i built some pvc overflows and they seem huge. which they are. they are like 14" deep in the tank. it was cheap but i dont think i like them and they are not even in the tank yet.

i think i am going to build an acrylic overflow instead. which is making me wonder where you got the u-tubes.

but your tank looks awesome. really nice job.


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## mikmaze

if you had the time, I would build a second bucket setup exactly as the first and install that in the other half of the styrylite box, put the return pump in between them and have twice the filtration and bio media. good thing is when time to clean, you can do them one at a time and your bio colony will be less effected. Also doubles the size of your blue pad which would help keep it from cloggin for twice as long. my sump has 300 square inches of filter media exposed to the flow and helps keep my maintenance low.


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## Natedawg63

Hoosier...

Did you DIY your 180g tank or buy it ready-made? That's the size I would live to get for a new set-up and was wondering if most of you guys here build your own tanks. I have a buddy that can build me the stand - so that part will be no problem. I have a local glass company... I guess they can order the panels for me - I think 180g should be around 72x24x24. Not sure the thickness I would need... 1/2" or 3/4"?

I am def gonna use your DIY sump... thanks for providing the info.

Nate


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## fishwolfe

ok silly question time.
when the power is off,doesn't the tank drain to the first hole in your U tubes?
doesn't that break the siphon?how does it maintain the siphon?
can your sump hold all that water?
is there a siphon break somewhere i cant see?


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## Natedawg63

Wolfe...

See pics 6-7 above and on pic 6 caption he says that he has a nozzle on his return line that feeds his UGJs that is barely below surface level. He says that acts as his syphon break in case of power failure.

Nate


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## fishwolfe

i see that on the ugj.what I'm referring to is the intake side.without an internal box the tank becomes the box, and it will siphon to the first hole.then the siphon will break and when the power comes back on it will flood the tank with all the water in the sump.


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## Hoosier Tank

Wow, what responces  Lets see if I can answer these in order...


dreday said:


> does your 5g bucket rest on the lid or does it sit on the bottom or on a stand on the bottom?
> i have enough room to sit the bucket on a stand of some sort(probably with eggcrate and pvc or some plastic legs) and do not really trust it hanging on the lid.
> 
> and for the overflow, did you build it or buy it and modify it??
> i think i am going to build an acrylic overflow instead. which is making me wonder where you got the u-tubes.
> .


Yes the bucket rests on the lid on the lowest lip of the bucket. There really is no weight supported, neither the bucket nor anything in it weighs much plus it's water level and the level in the sump are equal and cancel out any weight it does have.
I thought of a eggcrate and PVC stand in the first drawing but it's really not needed. Unless you want to put another layer of filter / quilt batting on it for final polishing.
The overflow is a Speciman container I bought for $5 and drilled for the PVC fittings. I used Bulldogg7 DIY in the Library on the "Skimmerless Overflow".



mikmaze said:


> if you had the time, I would build a second bucket setup exactly as the first and install that in the other half of the styrylite box, put the return pump in between them and have twice the filtration and bio media.


True, I can always get another lid to cut two holes to double-up if needed. THANKS



Natedawg63 said:


> Did you DIY your 180g tank or buy it ready-made? That's the size I would live to get for a new set-up and was wondering if most of you guys here build your own tanks.


Worse, I bought a busted acrylic 180 and repaired it the polished the gazillion scratches out, but it only cost $100. SEE THIS POST



fishwolfe said:


> when the power is off,doesn't the tank drain to the first hole in your U tubes?


No, thats the beauty of Bulldogg7's design, the tank level only drops to the TOP of the PVC pipe in the overflow that drains to the sump. It doesn't matter how deep the u-tubes go into the tank, plus, because the U-tubes ar lower in the overflow than the height of the drain, you never loose siphone.
Read the write-up in the library, it explains it well. "Skimmerless Overflow".

Whew, did I miss anything?


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## fishwolfe

glad you got your bases covered.


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## dreday

i am still not clear on the siphon.

how does the break on the return stop the drain?

i have a sump now with a regular overflow box. so if i took off the inside box and had just the tubes when would the water stop draining???

until the water gets below the tubes, then you loose siphon and it wont restart with out sucking the air out.

not sure how the stand pipe will stop the water.

i guess what the article was saying is that the stand pipe needs to be at the height were you want your tank level to be. so if the tank level drops below the stand pipe that will stop the flow of water out??

just want to make sure i understand. i do need to build some more drains as i stated earlier so i just trying to verify my brain so i dont flood my living room... :fish:


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## Hoosier Tank

Yes dreday that is correct. I think where you are getting confused is the holes in my u-tubes are well below the overflow height. so there is no way for air to get in and loose the siphone. About the best example I can give is similar to whats in the article.
Say you have a tank full of water and a long hose and a 5g bucket. Set the bucket on the floor, punch a bunch of holes in the hose close to the ends, but none in the center and put the hose in the tank close to the bottom. Now start siphoning water into the bucket and put the hose into the bucket clear down to the bottom. The bucket will continue to fill, even when both ends of the hose are covered, right?
Now when the bucket is half full so all holes in the hose are covered, lift the bucket to be higher than the tank, water will reverse direction and flow out of the bucket and back into the tank, go it so far? Now slightly lower the bucket until it's water level is the same as the tank water level. All flow stops because the levels are equalized.... but your hose is still full of water because both ends and all the holes are below the water surface, even if there are holes in the hose, if they are below the water level no air can get in...with me so far?
OK, if you drill a hole on the side of the bucket just above the water level, no water will drain out right? 
If you lower the bucket 2" and hold it there, water will flow out of the tank into the bucket and out the hole you drilled UNTIL the tank level drops the same 2" you lowered the bucket. Then the tank level AND the bucket level are again equalized but just below the hole and the flow will stop again...got it?
The overflow box is the bucket, the u-tubes are the hose and the standpipe is the hole in the side of the bucket.
Now if you shut off the pump, once water level drops to the height of the standpipe it can not drain any lower, nowhere to go, even though both ends of the u-tubes are below the water line. No air can get into the u-tubes _because_ both ends are still under water so the siphone doesn't break. So when the pump turns back on, it raises the tank level above the standpipe and water again flows.
HTH


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## dreday

ok i got it.

ty for the info again. :thumb:


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## bulldogg7

It looks great, wish I could've found those materials back then. That cover is sweet does it really reduce the noise a lot? I may get a bigger tank in a few months and go back to the skimmerless. 
Those siphon tubes look like they were made for the skimmerless, were the superking's HOB's?

Love the mariner theme on that wall, had an idea for something siilar, but wife didn't let me yet.


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## Hoosier Tank

Thanks, the cover I made out of two pieces of 1/8" sheet cutting one smaller than the opening and one larger then glueing them together does quiet it some but you still water running down the hose. 
The tubes are Supreme brand "King Siphon" from *E. G. Danner Mfg.*. As dusty as the packages were at my LFS, that probably explains why I couldn't find them listed on the websight. And why I got them for $5  
The ships wheel and net were there first! The whole Family Room has been Nautical theme since the remodel 9 years ago. Sailing ships, lighthouses, old fishing lures and reels and fish.


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## dreday

well to reduce the noise of the stand pipe, could you not put it at an angle??

i know it would be tight in the box but if you put in a 45 bend pvc that would slant the pipe it should reduce noise.

i think i might try one like that. maybe with only one U-tube in it. i plan on using 2 overflows per tank.

by the way what is your gph right now?? around 1000? 
and the size of the drain is 1.5"?

thanks again

dre


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## Hoosier Tank

Actually I figure it's close to 900gph with the head height I have and a 1200gph pump. If I would have made two overflows I would have had only 1 u-tube in each also. You want the water flowing fast enough to keep bubbles from forming and possibly breaking the siphon.
With only 1 u-tube per overflow there would be room for a Durso standpipe. It's basically a "T" sideways on the standpipe so the 90 portion points sideways and the top capped with a small vent hole in it. Similar to this *DURSO LINK* except with the whole unit inside the speciman container and exiting out the bottom similar in fashion to mine...
I find the little trickeling noise mine does make rather soothing


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## dreday

its a fine line between trickling and gurgling. right now i have a trickle but before i had a gurgle and it drove me crazy. it was louder than the tv!?!?!?!

yea i forgot about durso. i guess i could try to make a little one in the container. i thought they had to be a certain height though. i guess it is just the concept that needs to be applied.

hmm more ideas to think about.


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## boredatwork

There have been many discussions on overflow/sump noise on a lot of other sites. I literally spent about four weeks researching the cause of noise and some solutions (I was ... bored at work). The good news is that there are two methods I found for "silent" overflow/sump setup. The bad news is that they do not work with HOB overflows. I think durso is the best you can do for a HOB overflow - which usually ends up being extremely difficult in those little boxes with very little room behind the tank. Especially with dual overflows and a single overflow box. One thing I tried was dual overflows and dual overflow boxes. That gave a little bit more room.

Another option is the muffler...

http://home.everestkc.net/jrobertson572 ... ction.html

I have seen mixed reviews on it though, and I never tried it on a full scale setup - but its pretty cheap to build and try.


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## Hoosier Tank

boredatwork said:


> (I was ... bored at work)


 :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Well I guess that answers that question!


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## Zack2112

*Hoosier Tank*

Great thread, I just recently came across a deal that i might be getting a 180. *** been following your threads on the 180 and it turned out awesome.

I Really like your sump idea and plan to use this if the deal doesnt fall thru. I have just a couple questions for you.

Now that is has been running for a while is everything still functioning as planned, what other filtration do you have in the tank, and finally what pump did you use and how much did it cost.

Thanks again for making this post. Hopefully it works out and i will be building one of these myself pretty soon.


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## Hoosier Tank

Yes, evrything is running well and no issues yet... knock on wood. The pump is a Catalina Aquarium CA-4000. Here is the link http://www.catalinaaquarium.com/product_info.php?products_id=1584.
As of yet it is the only filtration I have. Not a heavy bio load yet but these fish are making up for it. 2 batches of fry growing in the rocks and a 3rd momma holding . I thought later I may add a canister like a magnum as a water polisher but so far everything is crystal clear.


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## Zack2112

Thanks a ton for the info, i was all for tackling the project but cringed when i saw the price of nice high flow pumps. Heck, maybe i will even double it up.... Thanks again!


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## Hoosier Tank

Yeah, I'm on a limited fish budget... thats why the title to this thread was "Cheap wet/dry sump".  Their Titanium heaters are affordable too. Course their longevety is yet to be seen.


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## dreday

i got a new hy-drive pump. i think it is from the same manufacture as mag-drives.(not 100%). i got a 1700gph for 150$. which is pretty darn good. chekc out petsolutions.com for them.


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## dreday

so i got my new sump up and running. had a few little leaks but nothing major.

just had an issue with the pump and thought i could get an answer here. the pump is creating a vortex in the container and starts blowing bubbles into the tanks. now the water line is about 3" above the pump and i am trying not to add more water because it would then be above the bottom of the bucket. and that would negate the polishing pad i have attached to the bottom of the bucket. now i believe this because the water will flow out the side instead of draining threw the pad.

so my main quest is what is the best way to stop the submerged pump from creating a vortex and blowing bubbles up. i will try to get some pics if needed.


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## Hoosier Tank

In mine, the lower 1/3 of the bucket is under water while it's running. With that, about 1/2 of my potscrubbies are above water so I don't see a problem with it. I only have holes in the bottom of my bucket so the water has to flow all the way through to get into the sump. If you wrap the polishing pad up the sides and secure it with a rubberband or long plastic zip tie, the water would have to flow through your polishing pad to get out... But I suppose if it cloggs the water could back up and not drain quick enough. 
Some one posted to add a standpipe from the pump pick-up going up to suck air sooner in order to keep the pump from overfilling the tank if needed, maybe you could fit one to your pump going down to the sump floor (instead of up) to keep this from happening.


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## boredatwork

Another option is to place the pump intake at a level in the sump that won't allow it to overflow the tank. I argued with someone who suggested for a long time before I realized he had a good idea. This is probably the easiest way to do it. But the assumption, in this case, is that you don't care what happens if the pump runs dry which may or may not be a bad thing.


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## dreday

i found an easy fix with some leftover parts. i used a threaded mip adapter that came with the pump(for inline use) and attache that to the inflow side. i found an elbow pvc that i had for another sump and it fit perfectly onto the adapter. then i just turned it so that it faces down and it does not suck anymore air.

it slowed down the flow a little bit but its better than possibly burning out the motor.


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## michaelshawncrowley

*Hoosier Tank*
Hey there , I'm new to this site. I am in the process of building a remote filtrarion set up vry similar to your posting. I have some spacific questions for you. How can I get ahold of you? Thanks so much -Michael-


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## rydog

Great set up and pretty much exactly what I am currently working on. Can anyone tell me what the black fittings are on the UGJ that go around the bottom? I am having a **** of a time finding what this part... (2nd to last picture on page 3)

Big props to anyone that can help! Thanks!!


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## Guams

rydog, the most popular way for making the "jets" is to get some PVC in whatever angle you want to use (30*, 45*, etc). Drop them into some boiling water for a few minutes, then clamp one sie close-to-shut with a vice-grips. At least that's what I did, and it works out quite well. Then you can dye them with Rit-Dye (I don't like this stuff) or spray paint them with Krylon Fusion to help hide them. You can also coat them with aquarium safe silicone and cover them with whatever you're using for substrate.


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## rydog

Right on. That sounds pretty easy. Thanks Guams!


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## Clink51

im reviving this thread because im still confused as to how you avoid overflowing and water spills. if the power in the motor go out at the far end of the piping, that still leaves alot of place for the water to fill. water would keep flowing until it spills and ends when the water goes below the tubes in the wwater. where would there be a security so that doesnt happen? say one of the filters gets clogged, wont the water keep pouring in?


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## Rick_Lindsey

Clink51,

A properly designed overflow will maintain the water level in the aquarium at a particular point. when the water-level in the main tank rises above that point, it starts to drain to the sump. When the water level drops below that point, the overflow ceases to drain the tank.

With me so far? We can go into details on what a properly designed overflow might look like, and how it works, but for now I'll assume we're on the same page there.

Your starting condition -- fill the tank, until it starts to overflow into the sump. Stop adding water, wait for it to equilibrate. There should be some water, but not alot in the sump right now. Add water in the sump until the sump is at your desired water level.

So far, so good. Tank is full, sump is full, and no water is on the floor.

Now switch on the pump...

Water starts to pump out of the sump, fills up the plumbing and starts spilling into the tank. The water level of the sump has dropped a little, by the amount of water in the return piping. Water slowly starts returning to the sump, but not quite as fast as it is pumping out. The water level in the sump continues to drop, as the water level in the tank rises a little further. This higher level of water in the tank allows the overflow to operate at full speed, and now water is coming into the sump just as fast as it goes out.

At this point, your sump system is fully operational, water level in the tank has risen just a little, and water level in the sump has dropped, perhaps considerably. If you turn your pump off right now, the excess water in the tank will drain back into the sump, as will the water in the return plumbing. You're back to where you started, with a full tank, a full sump, and no water on the floor.

The key here -- NEVER ADD WATER WHEN THE PUMP IS RUNNING!!!!

If you add water while the pump is running, welcome to wet floorsville. As long as you always turn your pump off before you add water (and wait a moment for the system to equilibrate), then any addition of too much water will be immediately obvious, since it will spill onto your floor right away. Don't do that. Unless you're trying to goad your spouse into calling you nasty names or your children into laughing at you.

-Rick (the armchair aquarist)


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## fox

To add to what was posted above ...

Once the tank is filled and draining into the empty sump stop filling the tank as noted above and fill the sump to what level you have designed for then mark the water level in the pump well with a _Power Off_ MAX limit.

Then after the system is running and stabilized, mark the water level in the pump well with a _Power On_ MAX limit, again on the pump well glass/ plexi.

You will notice due to evaporation that the water level in the pump well will lower and w/out powering down you can safely add water till it reaches the _Power On_ MAX limit you marked on the pump well glass.

The _Power On_ limit will always be lower than the _Power Off_ limit.


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## Clink51

im getting the idea a little more but what if you are using a HOB over flow? the ones where there has to be a syphon to draw the water out?

i do apologize for all these quetions, im just trying to get this done without putting a swimming pool in my living rooom


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## Rick_Lindsey

Are you planning to do a DIY overflow, or use a commercial one? I might have a picture around here somewhere of how a HOB style overflow works, if not I'll try to draw one up. Basically, though, you end up with an overflow box on the inside of the tank, and when the water in the tank drops below that level, no more water flows. The tricky part with a HOB overflow isn't stopping the water flow, but rather starting it back up again (i.e. not losing the siphon when the water level in the tank drops).

I'll post some more later with a pic if noone else clears it up first.

-Rick


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## Clink51

i wanna do something liek this http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/d ... erflow.php but im trying to get the correct principles first before i become a life version of Sponge Bob Square Pants (yea i went there)


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## Rick_Lindsey

Here's a picture of a regular HOB style overflow, both in equilibrium (left) and with water flowing (right)










The siphon-tube will work to ensure that the water level is the same on both sides -- in this case, the interior box and the left chamber of exterior box. The water in the right chamber of the exterior box will just drain right out, but that divider in the middle keeps the water on the left-half of that box above the bottom of the U-tube. This is critical for any HOB style overflow, you need to maintain that siphon in the U-tube.

Once you start pumping water into the aquarium, the water level rises until it spills into the interior box. that water level rises, and the siphon starts moving the water to the exterior box in an effort to keep the water levels the same. It will start spilling over the dam in the exterior box, and out the tube back to the sump. When you stop pumping, it returns to equilibrium.

If you simply skip the interior box, and run that side of the U-tube down into the tank, now the whole tank is effectively the interior box. The water level of the whole tank will now try to match that of the water level in the exterior box. I can draw up another picture of the skimmerless one if it would be helpful, just let me know.

-Rick (the armchair aquarist)


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## Clink51

i love pictures, they make everything soo understandable... yes i would appreciate a picture of without the front scoop. thank you so much for making this more understandable and thank you for your patience, its really REALLY appreciated


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## Rick_Lindsey

I've slightly exagerated the water level in the main tank, but again to the left is equilibrium, to the right is water being pumped into the tank. As the tank level rises, the siphon tube tries to equilibrate, rising the level of water in the outside box. when that happens, water spills over the little wall into the drain chamber, and voila. water flows.

You can achieve a similar effect by simply having that drain tube come up higher than the bottom of the U-tube, skipping the wall. That may limit your options for noise reduction, though. I believe most commercial overflows are built with the divider between chambers, but I could be mistaken.

For that matter it's possible to do the whole thing with a big pretzel of PVC and skip the boxes entirely, but I won't go into that now. It al relies on the same theory though -- maintaining the siphon in the U tube, and draining away water if and only if it rises above a certain level.

-Rick (the armchair aquarist)


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## dsouthworth

Anybody know how *Hoosier Tank* starts the siphon in his overflow?


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## SaintPaulCichlids

put airline to top of u-arch and suck to get siphon started.


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## Hoosier Tank

> put airline to top of u-arch and suck to get siphon started.


Yep... that's the common way and how I do it. 
The only time I have to do that is when performing a water change and drain the tank lower than the HOB overflow. Other than that it stays primed... even in a power outage


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