# Making water changes easier. . . .



## Hthundar (Apr 10, 2009)

Anyone have any cheap ideas on how to make water changes easier?

It would be really nice not to have to lug around buckets of water anymore.

Thanks


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

25' vinyl hose...

Fitting for the end of the hose...

Fitting for the Kitchen faucet (so hose can be attached to faucet)...

I made one of these over 5 years ago and my back has been feeling better ever since...

You can buy a "Python" which is essentially the same thing. The major difference is you can use the sink to start the siphon with the python... But if you suck water through a 25' hose and still get it in your mouth you have no business doing a water change 

Oh yea, and the Python is about 3x the cost as making your own... and is made out of plastic parts instead of metal...


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Keep your Python in a box out of sight. If your water department finds out that you are using a Python, or even worse a home-made version of one, you may be required to install a backflow preventer so that old fish water is not injected into your neighbors' water supply. The installation of a backflow preventer may cost between $500 and $1000, and the certified annual testing will be roughly $50 to $100 each year. If it is not tested or fails, your water will be shut off as a public safety hazard. And it has parts that wear out and need to be replaced every few years, no cost estimate on that one.

I think it's farfetched that fish water could be injected into our water lines especially with over 70 pounds of water pressure in the city line, but the city found out we used a Python and we had to get the backflow preventer. Too late to say we decided to go back to buckets. I can't imagine there ever being a problem with the Python unless there were a water main break that drastically lowered water pressure, and then contaminated water could be coming in from ground water and other sources as well. However once they get an idea in their head, it does not come out unless you liberally apply lawyers to the situation and that may cost more than the backflow preventer.

The home-made version would be worse because it contains metals including copper that could leach into the water supply or into your own fish tanks. Plastic is much safer than metal when in contact with water. Also the Python device incorporates a venturi (increases water velocity so a partial vacuum draws water from the tank) inside it, so any back pressure from a tank would be reduced by trying to flow backwards through the venturi, affording some protection to the water supply.


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## Hthundar (Apr 10, 2009)

Ever have any problems with bacteria growing in the tube?

And the whole back flow preventer idea, were you dumping the water outside or something? I can't seem to see why the town would get involved.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

I've been using hte same clear hose for years and have never had anything grow in it... I don't do anything special to dry the inside either...

Although I can understand the theory your water department is suggesting... That's aweful you've had to deal with it McDaphnia. I agree there is next to no chance of water ever backing up into the water supply...

As for metal parts doing something bad to the water... it's easy enough to find parts that won't be a problem. I agree using copper parts may be a bad idea, but when building it yourself it's up to you what parts to use. I've known a couple of people who have a lot of tanks (such as I do) that have burned through 2 Pythons since I put my DIY version together... I'm just not a fan of plastic threads...

So I guess if, by some odd chance, someone odd asks me about the hose... I'll simply say it's for draining only...


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## RyanR (Apr 29, 2008)

Mcdaphnia said:


> I think it's farfetched that fish water could be injected into our water lines especially with over 70 pounds of water pressure in the city line, but the city found out we used a Python and we had to get the backflow preventer.


That's terrible! Bureaucracy at it's worst. Not only is the water not likely to get back into the water supply, but there's enough chlorine/chloramine in there to kill anything. Not that there's really anything awful in fish water. Forget that most municipal water comes from reservoirs that actually have fish in them.

-Ryan


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Hthundar said:


> Ever have any problems with bacteria growing in the tube?
> 
> And the whole back flow preventer idea, were you dumping the water outside or something? I can't seem to see why the town would get involved.


 If you don't flush out old tank water with hot water when you're finished each time, you will get algae or bacteria film growing inside the tube.

For convenience, I put a hose holder for the Python above the fish room utility tub. It should have been kept in a box out of sight. Using old fish water outside to water plants or lawn would not be a problem. The water department is only concerned about the water flowing back into the tap water so they don't like Pythons and waterbed fillers.


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## mthigpen_02 (Dec 29, 2008)

I have my set up like Toby's except I bought drinking water safe hose, its blue. I have a gravel vac with a fitting on the end I hook up to the hose for draining water outside. When I am done draining water I hook it up to the sink and fill the tanks back up through the same hose. No fish crud left in my hose during storage.


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## planenut007 (Mar 21, 2009)

Considering the miles of iron pipe, and the metal water heater and/or the metal plumbing that the water flows through on its way to any tank, I would say a metal fitting or two is not going to cause any harm.
Your fixtures them selves are brass valves, and have you ever seen the inside of a water tank with a few years on it...Yuk!


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I favor the DIY syphon/fill system. They are cheap/simple and the only way to get what you want. Yes, they may get grime inside like almost all the other parts we use-- no more nor less. You do not have to suck on a hose to get a flow started. Fill the hose with water, stopper it with your thumb until you have it in a drain lower than tank level and let gravity do the rest. If a city inspector happened to be looking over your shoulder, he would be happy to see that your fill hose had no contact with the water in the tank. No way to syphon if the end is not in the tank water. A DIY clamp to hold the hose end above the water line takes care of that. I built a U-shape out of CPVC pipe that hangs on the tank edge so the end does not touch the water. Don't tug on Superman's cape and he will most likely leave you alone!!! :zz:


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## Lunafish (Aug 9, 2009)

Greetings,

I'm new to the forum but have been keeping fish for a few years. Just getting into Cichlids. I don't care if it's a DIY, a Python or what but a hose into a sink beats the snot out of buckets of water any day. We had a 29G tank on a "breafkast bar", elevated counter across the kitchen from the sink and for over a year we slopped buckets back and forth using a regular gravel siphon. Best thing I ever did was buy a used Python at a yard sale, buy some potable water "garden" hose and send my wife to the hardware store to get a "doohicky that goes from the faucet to a hose" She did and I haven't looked back since! I actually look forward to water changes now :dancing:

Matt


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## dreday (Oct 12, 2007)

a good way to keep the hose free of algae or bacteria is to store it in a dark place. i have been using the python for about 2 years and have no build up of any kind. i keep it in a cabinet in the kitchen. i do use a tube for other partial drainage and leave it in my buckets and it does have build up. but it drains and never fills.

light is the food for most bacteria and algae. cut it out and it should be no problem. also siphon some boiling water once a month to make sure. but you really dont have to. :thumb:


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Sounds like a bit of extra work for nothing to me 

Typicallyâ€¦ I drain tanks firstâ€¦ then refill themâ€¦ which means the last bit of water run through my hose is clean tap waterâ€¦

All to often my water change hose sits on the back deck in direct sunlight and in many years of using the same hose Iâ€™ve never noticed a bit of algae/bacteria/etc growing in the hoseâ€¦


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## gimmick_art (Feb 4, 2009)

Question - how do you treat for chlorine/chloramine with this system?
When using the hose to refill your tank, don't you just go straight from hose to tank?
Confuzzled.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

> I drain tanks first


Same here



> a metal fitting or two is not going to cause any harm


I agree



> Question - how do you treat for chlorine/chloramine with this system?
> When using the hose to refill your tank, don't you just go straight from hose to tank?


A capfull of Prime as the water is going in. Has worked well for years, with no problems.


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## Lunafish (Aug 9, 2009)

gimmick_art said:


> Question - how do you treat for chlorine/chloramine with this system?
> When using the hose to refill your tank, don't you just go straight from hose to tank?
> Confuzzled.


I guess that's where my wife and I are really blessed. Our water is slightly acidic and slightly hard straight out of the tap and from our... WELL. I imagine if city/county water ever comes through and I have to hook up that I'll be keeping the well for our fish. And at least previously when they have expanded you were allowed to keep your well but only for one outside spigot or something like that.

Matt


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

KaiserSousay said:


> > I drain tanks first
> 
> 
> Same here
> ...


 :lol: Everybody (almost) drains the tanks first, right? :lol: What's the alternative!!! The only exception I know today is a lady in Detroit who has a fish house with a big drain in the middle of the concrete floor. She adds water first and then doesn't have to do any draining. I had told her before she built the fish house about my uncle's beachfront bait shop. He dropped a sump pump off the end of his dock and constantly overflowed all the bait shrimp tanks with fresh sea water. She uses tap water and does it in the evening so the floor can be clean and dry in the morning.

As long as it's not garden hose, the DIY tubing should work. A small metal fitting won't be a problem for the fish unless you run soft acidic water or RO water through it. Tap water is buffered with calcium (a metal) to keep other metals out.

I use a carbon block whole house filter that removes chlorine and metals. I have a chlorine test kit, but the carbon block never stops removing chlorine, it just begins to reduce the water flow and need replacing before any chlorine gets by. I use a gravel cleaner set in a cradle to run water along its length and fall into the tank, aerating it. If I used a hook like pictured, I'd cap the bottom, drill a small hole or two in the side of the pipe and let that agitate the water as it fills. One plus about that modification is that when the water level reaches the holes, the water noise suddenly drops and unless you are out in the front answering the door, you have a warning before the tank overflows.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Mcdaphnia said:


> The only exception I know today is a lady in Detroit who has a fish house with a big drain in the middle of the concrete floor. She adds water first and then doesn't have to do any draining.


 my last house had the same thing... I had overflows on my tanks and ran the drain pipe to the drain in the center of the room. I used zip ties to tie the drain lines all together and keep them tucked away (stop me tripping over them all).

Now THAT was some seriously easy water changes... I had a water line I ran into the fish room and all I would do is turn on the water, let each tank overflow for a while, etc.

life's not so easy in my basement-less house in Florida... :lol:

I'm back to the bucket brigade!


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## non_compliance (Dec 4, 2008)

KaiserSousay said:


> > Question - how do you treat for chlorine/chloramine with this system?
> > When using the hose to refill your tank, don't you just go straight from hose to tank?
> 
> 
> A capfull of Prime as the water is going in. Has worked well for years, with no problems.


can you ever get TOO much prime in there over time?!


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

non_compliance said:


> can you ever get TOO much prime in there over time?!


Yes you can overdose with Prime (or other conditioners) and have negative results...

But unlike salt, Prime does biodegrade and evaporate/dissipate... therefore it does not 'build up' over time...


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

> Everybody (almost) drains the tanks first, right? What's the alternative!!!


Face value..looking now..it does appear to be a DUH! :lol: 
What I meant was, the hose I use gets a blast of tank water through it, out to either the lawn or bath tub. Just incase I didn`t get all the water out after the last filling.
Good catch :lol:


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I think there is way to much talk about how deadly chlorine/chloramine is to fish. If you stand and breathe CO2 it will kill you but just walking down the street to run into some does not. I feel the same is true with fish and chlorine. If the whole tank was full for overnight, it would be bad but the small amount that fish might run into while we fill and mix our treatment is no big deal. Relax and have some fun. :fish: New water temp is a concern in colder areas that bothered me more. I do smaller water changes more often when new water temp is a question. If gunk in the hose really gets bad or bothers you, take it to a faucet and run water through it. You ought to see what's inside the pipes you drink out of daily. :thumb:


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

PfunMo said:


> I think there is way to much talk about how deadly chlorine/chloramine is to fish. If you stand and breathe CO2 it will kill you but just walking down the street to run into some does not.


Really really bad analogy... you are dismissing quantity without any reason to. 
A small amount of Chlorine may do no more than irritate or burn the gills... repeat that many many times or increase the amount of chlorine by a large amount and we have a very different story...


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## Hthundar (Apr 10, 2009)

So its not a good idea to use a garden hose??


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

I'm not to concerned about chlorine (Chloramine is another story) as I am buffering. I have thought about using a pythin but I am concerned that I will end up causing PH and hardness swings by adding buffers after the change. Thoughts?

It's not that too much is being made of chlorine it's just that, I believe it's misdirected a bit. Chlorine in amounts which are safe for human consumption is of little threat to fish directly but microscopically it is death on contact for benefical bacteria which can spell trouble for our fish if, say, you are performing a massive water change or something.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

> So its not a good idea to use a garden hose??


All I can say is, I have used one for years. 
No problems. 
If it helps you feel better, get a "safe" hose. It will be marked as being "safe" for drinking water. They are usually white in color and come in 25 foot, or shorter, lengths. They are really not that much more $$$$.



> you have a warning before the tank overflows


What, and take the risk/danger out of the weekly change. :lol: 
I`ll pass on the drilled cap. Right now, the fill time is so short. I can keep an eye on it.,even being as easily distracted as I am.  
If I had some larger tanks, where I would be tempted to mentally/physically, wander. I have thought a modified ballcock would do the trick.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

KaiserSousay said:


> > So its not a good idea to use a garden hose??
> 
> 
> All I can say is, I have used one for years.
> ...


 I know people who put the shutoff part that goes in a toilet tank on the end of their hose, and it automatically stops the water. There are some more compact ones now without the big arm and floating ball.


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## Lunafish (Aug 9, 2009)

I never thought of using a Fluidmaster valve on my fill hose! Right now with only a couple of 55 gallon tanks right in the kitchen it's not to bad. But I'm thinking when I build/buy a 125 +/- then I might have to do that. Pretty neat idea.

Matt


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## under_control (Jan 9, 2008)

The python "pump" is junk. Plastic threads break, and the neck staps. The aqueon water changer is better, but I have moved to using a pvc u tube to drain outside and a hose hooked to faucet to fill.

If we are concerned about metal, The faucet it is coming from should be looked at, as I'm using brass fittings and that is all the faucet is...


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## vaypourus (May 20, 2008)

This isn't cheap.....but it is extremely effective and has made my water change schedule much easier than it used to be. I use it to change water on 7 separately plumbed tanks...I can't imagine doing it without it.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... highlight=

A friend of mine built the same unit using a 55 gallon food grade drum. He puts it in his closet and has enough vinyl tubing to get over to his tank.


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## Lunafish (Aug 9, 2009)

I bought my Python used for like 2 bucks. So the price was just perfect  I'm building a stand by enclosing our "breakfast bar" and am locating a canister filter in there. I'm thinking about plumbing in a drain line tied into my regular waste lines via a trap of course. I'd plumb it in the same as if I was putting in a sink. But my "sink" will only be the diameter of the drain pipe. Then water will siphon out of both my tanks very easily since the bottom point of the siphon will be WELL below the water level of the tanks instead of near equal with the bottom of the one tank. I also considered adding a faucet for filling too.

Matt


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

Regarding regular garden hoses - not every garden hose is the same. The one I have used for a long time has a white liner on the inside. However, I just bought one recently that has a white liner and a thin light blue coat on top of that. And it smells like chemicals.

I still use my original garden hose setup, but I think after that experience its safer to just buy potable hoses. Especially since from what I have seen online its no more expensive.

And a point about Prime. If you add the Prime to your tank (instead of to the new water) I recommend putting it in 10-20 minutes before adding the new water.

I had always thought Prime worked instantly so I used to dump the prime in my tank right where the new water would be entering the tank, and then turn on the tap. I noticed that my Syno's would start flashing almost instantly (although they were the only fish to do so).

Now I add the water treatment, do something else for about 10 minutes, and then add the water. With this new routine I have not seen any flashing.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Any one worried about the small amount of metal fittings on their water change systems can really go crazy if they feel the need. Step out of the fish room and look where the water travels to reach your faucet. I've never seen a water meter that was not metal nor a storage tank on a well that didn't use metal. You've all heard the story about what an "expert" is, have you not? I think the worry about metal and to some extent the worry about chlorine are both prime examples of that story.  Be safe, not paranoid. :fish:


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

boredatwork said:


> And a point about Prime. If you add the Prime to your tank (instead of to the new water) I recommend putting it in 10-20 minutes before adding the new water.
> 
> I had always thought Prime worked instantly so I used to dump the prime in my tank right where the new water would be entering the tank, and then turn on the tap. I noticed that my Syno's would start flashing almost instantly (although they were the only fish to do so).


I'm by no means saying your wrong and since by experience this is working for you... then obviously this is working for you! :thumb:

The chemical reaction between Prime and chlorine / chloramine / ammonia / nitrite / nitrate / etc / etc will take place â€œinstantlyâ€


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

Yea, I can't say it makes sense, but it does seem to work.

I also think it is some second order effect, since no other fish in the tank seems to care. My frontosa will go right up to the hose and swim in the current. So unless they are as stupid as they look, I think it is something unique to the Syno's. Having said that, waiting a small amount of time does seem to make the problem go away, which leads me to believe that the Prime is doing something to fix the problem.

I don't know.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

boredatwork said:


> Yea, I can't say it makes sense, but it does seem to work.
> 
> I also think it is some second order effect, since no other fish in the tank seems to care. My frontosa will go right up to the hose and swim in the current. So unless they are as stupid as they look, I think it is something unique to the Syno's. Having said that, waiting a small amount of time does seem to make the problem go away, which leads me to believe that the Prime is doing something to fix the problem.
> 
> I don't know.


 I think it could be the catfish. When we had discus and city water in our first apartment, they would come swim right in the stream of new chlorinated water. They seemed to like it.


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## vaypourus (May 20, 2008)

Mcdaphnia said:


> I think it could be the catfish. When we had discus and city water in our first apartment, they would come swim right in the stream of new chlorinated water. They seemed to like it.


That surprises me...a buddy of mine lost an entire discus tank when he forgot to add his water conditioner for chlorine.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

vaypourus said:


> Mcdaphnia said:
> 
> 
> > I think it could be the catfish. When we had discus and city water in our first apartment, they would come swim right in the stream of new chlorinated water. They seemed to like it.
> ...


 I understand that discus come from water with a low bacteria count, and that is what chlorine also does, though chemically rather than using naturally occurring chemicals. When we were away from the apartment on a long weekend, our tank bottom broke and the super came into our apartment and shop vac-ed all the water out of our tank. Our neighbors came in and saw the discus flopping in the tank, filled up our bath tub with fresh tap water and when we came home a few days later, there they were, swimming happily in the tub. However... that was forty years ago when there was no such thing as chloramine, and the levels and varieties of chemicals added to the city water was much less elevated than it is today. Plus much of the chlorine would have been lost in filling the buckets in the bathroom or kitchen and carrying them to the tank, since back then they did not add chemicals that help keep the chlorine in solution. Just a couple years ago, I was receiving some adult discus, and enroute an alert shipper noticed the plastic fish bags were nearly empty, and "refilled" them with tap water so that there was no air left in the bags. Whether it was the chlorine and chloramine in the tap water, or having the oxygen in the bag removed, something killed them all.


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## Hthundar (Apr 10, 2009)

Ok, so everyone pretty much agrees that the plastic sink adapter sucks. So what are the alternatives?

Oh and please attach a link and/or picture to what it is that you are speaking of.

Thanks


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Check KaiserSousay's post at the bottom of page 1...

Pics and everything...


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## Hthundar (Apr 10, 2009)

Toby_H said:


> Check KaiserSousay's post at the bottom of page 1...
> 
> Pics and everything...


Thats just a filler. I want the makings for the faucet pump (python/water bed kit) attachment that connects the hose to the faucet. Its the part of the system that creates the *venturi effect.*

This is the product i want to replicate









Since most people on this thread have said that it tends to break easily, I want to make one that will last.

Thanks


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

I don't agree the plastic sink adapter sucks. I use it for all of my water changes. The advantage it has to the metal adapter that was posted is that it can start your suction for you. The metal adapter will only allow you to fill the tank. (Unless I am missing out on something.)

The only time mine breaks is when my dog eats it (twice), but it costs like $7 to replace.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Hthundar said:


> Toby_H said:
> 
> 
> > Check KaiserSousay's post at the bottom of page 1...
> ...


I follow you now...

My set up, like KaiserSousay's, would qualify as "fill only"...

...although any hose can be used to create a siphon. Which is how I drain my tanks. I use the same hose I use to fill... start a siphon... and drain. I never understood the big deal about the Python's "auto drain" aspect...

I've heard people suggest the auto start siphon means you'll never accidently suck water into your mouth again. But when using a 25' hose, there is plenty of time between the siphon starting and the water reaching the end of the hose to stop sucking and move the end of the hose to away from your mouth/face... plenty of time...


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## Lunafish (Aug 9, 2009)

My argument in favor of the Python is that it doesn't require the sink or bucket to be below the level of the tank. One of our tanks bottom is comparable in height to the bottom of the sink. I don't want to run the hose outdoors through an open door or window because of either bugs in the summer or cold in the winter I find the Python very convenient for removing water and waste from that tank. The ability to fill again is nice, but that can be easily done with a 3 dollar brass adapter from the hardware store.

As far as "Auto Siphon" goes I find the smallest air pocket will interupt the siphon effect and I have to fill the hose with water by running the Python in the "fill" mode until water runs out, then closing a valve on the end of my vacuum wand, inserting in tank and then setting it to siphon.

Matt


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

> My frontosa will go right up to the hose and swim in the current. So unless they are as stupid as they look,


 :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

The venturi uses a lot of new tap water to lift old tank water up to a sink. I try to put powerheads in my lower tanks. That way all I have to do is hold tubing against the outflow and it pumps water out without wasting new water. It would be on anyway so you don't even increase your use of electricity.


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## Linoleum (Aug 9, 2009)

I use some extra hosing from my pools skimmer thing its about 2" in diameter i just syphon it out the door with that, it gets such a good suction behind it, it sucks up any gunk off the sand surface and can drain a good 30% of my 180 gal in like 2 minutes. then i fill it back up with the hose my rain water tank water is pretty much neutral.


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## lapp211 (Aug 12, 2009)

how do you add pics to a post?


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## Hthundar (Apr 10, 2009)

lapp211 said:


> how do you add pics to a post?


Picture already online

Click the Img box

Copy and paste the URL

Click the Img box

Click preview

:thumb:

Or

Picture on your own computer

go to imageshack.us

follow instructions

use the forum application

=D>


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