# Cycling? Fish store guy had some interesting thoughts...



## newtocichlids15 (Nov 1, 2014)

Hi!

I'm brand new to cichlids but have always wanted them. Previously have had guppies, Mollies, variety of tetras, guaramis (dwarf), and Angels (growing experience with each group!) Moved across the country so no fish for the past year.

I just bought a new-to-me 55 gallon aquarium (the long variety). The previous owner had 2 adult cichlids (yellow and blue, each about 4" in size) and a large algae eater (6"). She kept the cichlids since I want to have a cichlid tank and want more than 2 - I didn't want to start out with territory/aggression issues, and would rather stock with juveniles. I have zero desire to breed. The tank came with a filter that was smaller than I wanted and ancient (couldn't even find the replacement filters), so I have replaced that. I have the same gravel that she used (plus an inch or so of water that was still in the tank at transport - essentially a complete water change with set-up at my house). Her tank had been in existence for years with no issues. The algae eater is doing fine, although he may go to a new home as I hear cichlids like to eat the algae too!

So in summary:
-55 gallon tank that had been set up for ages and running well
-Same gravel + 1" or so of original water
-New filter

When I asked my local fish specialty store about cycling, the guy seemed to think a week set up and running would be sufficient, and then I could go ahead and add the cichlids. He manages/cares for all the big cichlid tanks in town (hospitals, Dr offices, etc) so in general, I think he knows what he's talking about. However, the cycling piece really threw me. It's been a week now - do I add fish??? I've never done it so soon before!

I don't have water testing parameters yet - but will buy some tomorrow when I'm in town anyway.

(Edited because I forgot to select for notifications)


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Ideally, I'd want the tank empty of livestock to be able to add ammonia safely and then test for levels after 24 hours. A sufficiently cycled tank should be able to convert 2-3ppm ammonia after 24 hours to 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrite and should result in a nitrate reading above 0ppm. Unless you're testing with ammonia, it's just a guess as to whether the tank is cycled or not. I'd rather confirm it before adding fish.


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## LeeAberdeen (Sep 4, 2014)

I think he's talking s***e, regardless of his experience. A week? I'm presuming he's basing that on you keeping the gravel and some of the water, on the basis that there'll be lots of beneficial bacteria in there, but far more important is your filter for that purpose and you've replaced that. I think you'll get a kickstart from the gravel, but I don't see a proper cycling happening in a week. The bacteria doesn't live in the water column anyway, and while it will be on your gravel, there would've been much more in the filter media. Test the water to find out, but you don't mention doing anything to start the cycling process, so I'm wondering what you'll be testing for if you haven't added any ammonia to kick things off and feed the bacteria that's already there.

Be VERY wary of the local fish store. I mentioned cycling to someone in mine a while back and she didn't even know what it was. The next time I went in, the clearly otherwise-knowledgeable bloke in there swore blind that 70 per cent of the bacteria lives in the water "because it gets blown out by the filter". You'll get far better advice on here.

I'm presuming, though, that you haven't used Tetra Safestart or something similar? That will cycle your tank quickly, in about two weeks I think, but only with fish in there, which is a bit unfair on the little fellas because the ammonia will be at more than 1ppm the whole time it's doing its stuff. I wouldn't want my fish in water with ammonia anything like that high, even if the manufacturers claim it's okay for a short while.

Good luck with the cycling.


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## newtocichlids15 (Nov 1, 2014)

Thanks everybody!

Went back to the fish store today to pick up some stuff (including a new test kit since mine has disappeared) and the fish guy changed his tune - thought I should wait another week. So, agreed, I think he's full of S***. haha.

My values today:
pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 0 ppm

So, to me that says the tank hasn't cycled yet, right? I'll look into the Tetra safe start stuff - I've never used it but it sounds interesting!

What size filter are you folks running in a 55 gal? I was thinking of stocking with like 8 cichlids (of the 4" variety), with a filter approved up to 100 gal. Is that insane?


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## newtocichlids15 (Nov 1, 2014)

So I've been reading on the Tetra-safe start.... looks like it HAS to be done with fish in the tank - pretty neat product if it works. I'm thinking about trying that with an initial addition of a few juvenile cichlids next weekend - maybe 3 to 4 of them? I'd like to have peacocks for sure - what other varieties do you recommend with the peacocks? Fish guy said, "you can ABSOLUTELY mix any cichlid!" I know that's not true! Looks like the peacocks are fairly peaceful and tend to get picked on. I'm in an extremely rural area and shipping here is inconsistent at best - I'd be pretty hesitant to order any fish online somewhere, so I'm a bit limited to the fish store. They, of course, have "African cichlids - $9.99" (for juveniles) in a tank - with minimal labeling, etc.


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## LeeAberdeen (Sep 4, 2014)

It won't be cycled because, unless I missed something, you've done nothing to cycle it? You need to add some ammonia to about 3ppm and take the readings until the beneficial bacteria is bringing the ammonia down to 0 within 24 hours. There's a sticky on here all about cycling. Switching a new filter on and leaving it on for two weeks won't cycle it, whatever the local fish store says (and loads of them come out with that one, with some of them even saying two days). There are no fish in your tank to feed the bacteria with waste, so unless you add some ammonia it has no food source, and opinion varies as to how long it can survive without nutrients.

Your readings are meaningless because, unless you've added ammonia, there won't be any, and your good bacteria will be dying off. If you put fish in now, they'll die.

As I say, I wouldn't do Tetra Safestart for the reasons mentioned above - it's not good on your fish. The Safestart manufacturers say ammonia can be as high as 2ppm for a while with fish in it, but ammonia causes permanent damage, and 2ppm is a shed-load of ammonia. If you're a fish lover, why would you put your fish in poisonous water?

Read the sticky, it'll tell you everything you need to know.


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## LeeAberdeen (Sep 4, 2014)

Oh, and no, overfiltering like that isn't insane. Some people do a lot more than that. The rule is that you shouldn't under-filter, but it's not possible to over-filter. The more the better, your fish will love it.


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## newtocichlids15 (Nov 1, 2014)

Thanks! I read the "fish-less cycling" note .... but where does anyone find ammonia? No one here has it and I'm getting nowhere on Amazon so far. All I can find are things that *treat* ammonia, and obviously that's not my problem!

Also, I've been reading that 55gal is too small for most peacocks, but the ones at the store are listed to max out at 4"... which I would think would be okay? (Obviously this is a ways down the road, given the cycling stuff, but I'd like to be well-informed when I ultimately make my decisions!). Glad to hear my filter thoughts aren't crazy - guy at the "fish store" said I was over-doing it.  Obviously he's brilliant.

It stinks that I can't trust my fish store folks here. I moved out here from Madison, WI and our local aquarium shop was brilliant - troubleshot many an issue with me, and always with success!


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## The Cichlid Guy (Oct 18, 2014)

I get mine from a local hardware store (ACE), and I've heard other people find theirs at some of the smaller grocery store chains. You want "pure ammonia" or "ammonium hydroxide" with NO surfactants.

I've also had great luck using Seachem Stability, a product similar to Tetra SafeStart, but with much better results in my experience (i.e. a month of cycling with no change in levels VS. two weeks of cycling with Stability ending with a well-cycled tank.)

Most peacocks I've seen grow to about 6", and I think the general consensus is that they can physically fit in a 55, but territory issues call for a bigger tank down the road.


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## atreis (Jan 15, 2013)

Assuming that the tank was previously cycled and the tank was holding some other type of freshwater fish (reasonable, but not actually stated) I would expect your cycle time to be drastically shorter. The gravel will hold quite a lot of the bacteria.

I'd still do a fishless cycle, but wouldn't be surprised if it ended up only taking a week or two.

Use a test kit and let us know.


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## Frank-the-tank (Sep 28, 2014)

Lots of nice people telling you all kinds of things...I read this...it works.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/fishless_cycle.php


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## newtocichlids15 (Nov 1, 2014)

Thanks everyone! I really appreciate all the great advice!


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

IF you moved the gravel, filter media and some of the decor and set the tank up right away the tank would essentially be cycled. Think of it as doing a 100% water change. So his estimation of a week is not too far of fin this case. You will, however, lose that cycle quickly as well without something to keep it going. Thus the need for ammonia...or fish. If you let the gravel and media dry out you will lose a lot of the beneficial bacteria.

As far as your filter goes don't go by the manufacturers rating, look at the GPH and amount of media it holds. I'd suggest a canister filter that does about 8-10x the tank volume an hour. Since you are only going to have 8 4" you will be ok with 8x or even a little less, but if you ever wanted more fish you'd need a bigger filter. It is a rare case in this hobby that some one wants less fish! 

You could also get a nice sized hang-on-back filter. Something like the AquaClear 110 would be a good choice for this sized tank. I prefer a canister tho because they can hold some much more media and are generally a lot quieter than a HOB. Also, if you plan to have a sand substrate it is murder on a HOB's impeller.


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## marius432 (Aug 13, 2012)

It took me about 40 days to cycle my tank.
I bought ammonia from the local grocery store by the household cleaning section supplies. about 1.99 or 2.99


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## newtocichlids15 (Nov 1, 2014)

I'd appreciate your thoughts on my latest water parameters.

Just to be clear - gravel, tank, drift wood and rocks all from previous established aquarium. Essentially a 100% water change performed at purchase, new filter/media. I inherited a common pleco with the tank so he's been in there for the last 7 days while I figure out what to do with him.

10/26/14 - tank set up

11/1/14 - 
pH: 8-8.2 
Ammonia, Nitrites and nitrates all 0

11/7/14 (today)
pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0.25-0.5 (more close to the 0.25 color but just a bit darker than the light lime green)
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0-5 (definitely closer to zero but darker than the zero color, not quite a 5ppm)

So, the way I look at this - the tank seems to be cycling. My plan is to just keep testing it regularly until it looks fully cycled, then add some cichlids. Still not sure what to do with the pleco (anyone want him?)


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

Sounds like it is cycled to me. The waste from the pleco most likely kept it going.

In the future take media from a filter on an established tank and put it directly into the new tank for a cycle jump start.


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## newtocichlids15 (Nov 1, 2014)

Stupid question - when you say, "take the media," are you referring to the bio layer thing in the filter, or the cartridge or just scrubbing some of the gunk off of the filter or what? Thanks!


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

newtocichlids15 said:


> Stupid question - when you say, "take the media," are you referring to the bio layer thing in the filter, or the cartridge or just scrubbing some of the gunk off of the filter or what? Thanks!


Yes! 

Ya, all these can work. A biofilm will grow on many different surfaces. The best choice would be the biological media as it is usually very porous and designed to grow beneficial bacteria.


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## newtocichlids15 (Nov 1, 2014)

So I'm paranoid because once I put fish in too soon and killed them all (guppies, that time around).

I've been monitoring tank parameters

11/9/14
Temp: 78
pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0.25
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0-5 (hard to tell at the time, looking back on it today, I think it was basically 0)

11/10/14
Temp: 79
pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0.25
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5

Aside from the pleco (who seems to be doing fine), there aren't any fish in the tank yet. I'm wondering why my ammonia hasn't come down yet? I know 0.25 isn't a terrible value, but shouldn't it be 0 in a fully cycled tank? And, do I need to worry that an ammonia spike is still coming? I've been testing daily and never caught a spike - 0.25 is the highest its gone. Or, does the fact that I definitely have nitrates now mean that I'm good to go?

Also, my pH has been at 8.2 since the water first went into the tank 2 weeks ago - I know cichlids like more basic water, but is this TOO alkaline?


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## The Cichlid Guy (Oct 18, 2014)

I rock 8.2 in my tank and my fish seem to love it, although I'm trying to bring it down to 8 or so to use less buffer. Just make sure you acclimate your fish slowly, as some stores keep cichlids in water ranging from 7.6 all the way down to neutral.

I would wait on the ammonia to come down, as well. It *should* reach 0 when your tank is cycled. If you never had an ammonia or nitrite spike, it sounds like you've not exactly gone through a full cycle, but rather the amount of bacteria left in the tank + the amount of waste produced by the pleco has resulted in a weak cycle that may not be capable of supporting several cichlids. If possible, I would rehome the pleco (if that's what you decide to do) and add ammonia. If the ammonia begins to peak, I would go through the cycle as I would in a brand new tank. If it fully converts to nitrates, you're ready to go.


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## newtocichlids15 (Nov 1, 2014)

Well, today the ammonia is definitely 0. Other values stable (ph 8.2, nitrite 0, nitrate strong 5 - a bit more orange than yesterday, but still more a 5 than a 10)

My tap water is a pH of 8.0 (Don't have ability to check KH and GH or whatever yet). My set up is gravel (will switch out to sand eventually), scrubbed river rocks, flower pots, PVC pipes (hidden), fake plants and a large piece of driftwood. Any idea what makes the pH in the tank just slightly more alkaline than the tap? I know 8.2 is fine, but I get wonder what the mechanism is, and whether there's any possibility it will go higher?


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## The Cichlid Guy (Oct 18, 2014)

If anything, I would expect it to drop over time, due to the driftwood.


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## hisplaceresort1 (Mar 10, 2014)

If you do decide to remove the fish and need the Clear ammonia after all - I found...

http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/austins-ammonia-128-oz
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1272325
http://www.amazon.com/00052-Ammonia-Clear-128oz/dp/B002JWOQY8

hope it helps!

And also, the 8.2 pH. I recently started measuring my tap water. I expected 8.2 pH because my tank is solid 8.2 ph, pretty much no matter what I've done to it. Well, my tap water is measuring 7.6 pH... and I was worried because I always do a 50 or 60% water change every week. I measured within a couple of hours of my change and guess what? 8.2 pH. Yes, I have some holy rock/coral and petrified wood, but other than the petrified wood, it hasn't always been in the tank. And I also have driftwood, which would soften it, and maybe lower the pH. I don't add buffers or salt (except when I was medicating once).

I guess it has to be something with the high kH and gH of my tap water. gH runs about 19 and kH about 17 out of the tap, and that's about where it stays in the tank. That's without adding anything. Yours may be the same. It's a good thing, though - all I have to add is my Seachem Prime!


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## newtocichlids15 (Nov 1, 2014)

One more cycling question... which is probably stupid 

This past week, my readings have been consistently
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5
(Up until Friday, the only fish in the tank was the large pleco that I don't know what to do with)

Thursday, I performed a 10% water change.

On Friday, I stocked the tank with juvie Cichlids (max size 1.5"), 6 yellow labs, 5 rusties (0.5" each) and 6 socolofi's. Yes, it's overstocked but I'm waiting to sex them and take the extra males to the LFS. Hoping for a 3:1 ratio eventually, for 12 total fish. When adding the fish, I added 5mL/gallon of the Tetra Safe Start (as per bottle instructions).

Readings today - 24 hours post adding fish:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 10 (STRONG 10, borderline 20)

Fish are SUPER active and ate their two teeny tiny meals (AM and PM) vigorously. If anything, I think I severely underfed at each feeding vs. overfeeding.

I'm planning to test again tomorrow - if I am at 20, I assume I need to do a water change? Do I do a top-water change, or vacuum the gravel (and disturb any detritus)? I guess I'm just making sure that this is an expected result of adding fish - it just seems like it jumped higher than I thought it would, but maybe that was naive of me.


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## LeeAberdeen (Sep 4, 2014)

You're not supposed to do any water changes while using Safestart - you'll have to wait two weeks. That's another reason it's unfair on fish to use it, along with the fact the bacteria in Safestart live in an ammonia solution to keep them alive, so it will raise your ammonia too. Living in the sort of ammonia concentration Safestart will produce will cause permanent damage to the fish, although it shouldn't kill them if they're healthy. You'd have been better off using something like Seachem Stability, which works in a different way but won't raise the ammonia. As you've chosen to ignore the warnings above about Safestart, though, you, and more importantly your unfortunate fish, are going to have to live with it. Hopefully.


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## newtocichlids15 (Nov 1, 2014)

No need to get nasty - I read the words above and also read every thread I could find on here (both positive and negative) on Safe Start. I was hoping that I had hit a reasonable medium by doing just the maintenance instructions (what the bottle recommends when adding fish or changing water), rather than dumping in the whole bottle. Obviously I made a mistake, which is why I was on here looking for the best next step. I did not need such a snarky reply, as I'm feeling badly about this already. So, thanks for that.


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## hisplaceresort1 (Mar 10, 2014)

LeeAberdeen;
don't take it too hard - I too am one that cycled with fish.
There are no good instructions for how to cycle with fish, because there probably really is no good way to cycle with fish.

There may not be a lot of people who chime in on this for several (good) reasons:
1.) If your fish die, they don't want to be blamed.
2.) People do not want to promote a process that we can (mostly) all agree is not a good one.
3.) People may not have the exact situation as you do.

So, now that I have the proper disclaimers in place, let me try to be constructive, OK? - what to do... 

I'm a fan of all Seachem products. Seachem Prime is why my fish are alive today. It will neutralize ammo, nitrite & nitrates, and it's pretty hard to overdose it. Yes, it sometimes seems to me like Black Magic and Voodoo, but regardless, it works. So, yes, you can add it without changing water. I did when I was cycling; every 2 days. Honestly, my fish didn't seem stressed at all, but I was.

So I am going to step out on a limb here, and tell you what I did. I used a double dose every 2 days, and still did partial water changes. And fed very little. And did not clean the gravel, either. Had excellent aeration & surface agitation. And also added Seachem Stability. I did not use Safestart.

Your biological filter can still "eat" ammonia and nitrites even when bonded with whatever is in Seachem Prime, it just renders it non-toxic to your fish, and there is evidence according to Seachem's site that it does the same for nitrates. And for the nitrates, Seachem Stability. Just add it. I do not believe it can hurt anything now.

Today, my fish that went through this process are large and seemingly healthy, but in truth there is no way to know if I caused them organ damage or not.

But this is what I did, and this is how I did it, If you do what I say and something happens to your fish, I am very sorry... and No, I would Not do it again this way... and I hope it helps.

Hang in there... I think you'll be OK!


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## LeeAberdeen (Sep 4, 2014)

First off, I don't think there's such a word as "snarky", so it's not possible to be it. Secondly, if you perceive what's said above as "nasty", that's tough. I'm much more concerned about what's nasty to your fish, and putting them in a high-ammonia environment is exactly that. It wasn't just me that told you the 'right' way to cycle - check the thread, there are other people telling you to read the sticky on cycling, where it's all spelt out. Instead, you chose to ignore the very thing you presumably came on here to get, namely good advice. The only thing I said that could possibly be construed as "nasty" is: "As you've chosen to ignore the warnings above about Safestart". But that's a fact, because that's what you've done, so it's hardly fair to shoot the messenger. I understand it's not always easy to buy the right sort of ammonia off the shelf, and that seems to be why you've done the very thing you were warned not to, but surely it can't be that difficult these days to order some online?

In terms of a more positive message to help sort the mess out, the above advice on Seachem Stability sounds good to me. Think I'd do two big water changes to get the ammonia from the Safestart down, then monitor your water and do more big water changes if you get an ammonia spike. It's basically going to be a case of removing the ammonia manually, probably daily, until your beneficial bacteria kick in, which is a bit laborious but now necessary. If you haven't got a python water changer or something similar, I'd get one to make it a lot less hassle.


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## hisplaceresort1 (Mar 10, 2014)

Lee I'm sorry - I meant that to go to the OP, newtocichlids15, not you; my eyeballs crossed when I was looking for the OP... I'm embarrassed, but it probably makes more sense when you read it now...

Honestly; not meant for you, and again, so very sorry! I can see why that would have made you mad if it was addressed to you.


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## RobsFishTank (Nov 11, 2014)

Psst...

https://www.google.com/search?q=snarky& ... 2&ie=UTF-8


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## hisplaceresort1 (Mar 10, 2014)

RobsFishTank! Don't make me stop this car!  Play nice...


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## LeeAberdeen (Sep 4, 2014)

RobsFishTank said:


> Psst...
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=snarky& ... 2&ie=UTF-8


Ah, of North American heritage, you see. It's not known over here, in Scotland, and it's not in the Oxford English Dictionary.


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## hisplaceresort1 (Mar 10, 2014)

So, how are things going?  Please let us know.


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