# Malawi tank problem



## stewfox (Sep 1, 2010)

Hi,

I'm new the forum

I have kept fish for 20yrs from 7ft Marine Tanks to your standard 4ft Tropical and all sorts in between.

I have had a Malawi tank set up for over a year.

Kept 5/6 mid size malwais and a large plec in there (4ft tank) no problem

One of the fish caught a disease , seem to get better (without intervention) and started to eat but then just died over night. 6 weeks ago

All other fish find all water readings fine.

Got another fish from Pet Store (dont know name but yellow in colour). It died within 24hrs.

Seem to have problem breathing (but all tests appeared fine , all other fish were fine )

Put it down to Pet store.

A few weeks later went to Maidenhead aquatics and got two mid size Malawis.

Within two hrs one then both went to the surface gulping like, I did a large water change (30%) both seem a bit better. The water is well ariated.

One had problems the next day (gulping on the floor) the other was still eating, however in the morning both were dead. I had done another 40% water change that night, probably excessive but couldn't think of anything else to do. Got up just 5hrs later and both dead (thats today)

Nitrite,Nitrate all other readings appear fine. I cross checked with my tropical tank (no problems there ie the stripes i use were giving same readings)

These new entrants were not being bullied (day time anyway) and i made a few changes to decor etc

What can kill new fish in 24/48 hrs all the other fish are fine ?

I note my stips are 2 months out of date and will of course get new set (i dont really like stripe tests).

The water appeared a bit warm so temp down to 26/27c,

I had washed a bit of the filter but again nitrite 0 so if I had done too much a delayed peak ? and other fish would suffer ??

Obvioulsy I can't put any more fish in there till I find out what is wrong.

Any suggestions ? I feel really bad about this.

What kills fish so quickly but all existing tanks mates are fine ? Someone said excess bullying (all the other tank fish have been in their a min 6 months) . However apart from usual who is this etc, these were larger well developed fish

Can someone recommend the best test kits I can get as a starter


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## stewfox (Sep 1, 2010)

Just quick update my established Malwai fish are not eating now. they always come straight to the surface

Test kits must be wrong ?


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

A shot in the dark here: could you be overdosing on dechlorinator? That can suck the oxygen right out of the water...

Best to post this in the Illness, Health & Nutrition forum: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=23

kevin


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## stewfox (Sep 1, 2010)

ridley25 said:


> A shot in the dark here: could you be overdosing on dechlorinator? That can suck the oxygen right out of the water...
> 
> Best to post this in the Illness, Health & Nutrition forum: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=23
> 
> kevin


If a moderator wants to kindly move it ?

Given my existing fish are not eating tonight suggest a water problem and test kits not working ?

I have also found a lot of excess food (must have been last 48 hrs)

I clean the substrate before the new fish arrived (in tank water)

I have none another 20% water change

My partner doesnt understand why I am upset two fish have died. I dont care about the Ã‚Â£30 its my responsibility and in 20yrs of fish keeping I have not had this before. ie an unexplained reason. Also for fish to die so quickly, one was eating at midnight dead by 5am. Thats got to be a serious problem ?


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## loffy74 (Sep 28, 2008)

Most likely Malawi Bloat. If your readings are good.

I would treat entire tank with Clout or Metro
Metro can be found in parasite clear. but i would look for the pure stuff from Seachem or Metro+
Clout cant be found at your chain stores, but if you have a nice LFS close by check there.

these is a Bloat treatment advice in the Illness section. in the top locked topics.

Most likely they are not just dying quick, with bloat they can seem fine to the untrained eye,
the first will hide, ( from aggressive tank mates, then hide and isolate themselves, then
they wont eat or may try to eat and spit it out , heavy breathing , darkening , not pooping
or white stringy poop. then they will die. some last longer then others.

if they are dying super fast, could be amonia poisoning, try to get some ammo lock
but if you tested for ammonia already... i would say its most likely malawi bloat.


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## loffy74 (Sep 28, 2008)

i didnt read your entire article, sorry

that seems to fast for your new fish to die of bloat, unless they already had it.

*but if your current malawi's are not eating ...bloat always tops my list for diagnosis.*

are you using any algeacide? 
sometimes that can take the oxegen out of the water.

I am assuming you acclimated your new fish?

whats the readings for PH , and hardness,


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

It sounds more like a water problem rather than a disease however poor water quality can stress a fish to the extent that it will be more susceptible to disease.

To answer your question as to what will kill a seemingly healthy fish, (healthy: eating and swimming normally with no white/gray growths on the skin) in 24 hours or less. 
Aggression from another fish
Toxin in the water
Bacterial infection, (it can be internal so that you don't see any kind of growth on the fish)
Clogged/broken filter

With aggression you usually see one fish get picked off at a time. You may or may not actually see the aggression and that's because when you're around all fish, both aggressive and submissive turn their attentions to FOOD.

With a toxin in the water, and this can include everything from gasoline/soap residue coming off your fingers to an ammonia/nitrite spike you usually see all fish showing some kind of symptom however some may be more sensitive then others so that you may have one or more fish die while others just seem to be breathing harder than normal.

*What it sounds like is happening to me in your tank *is that there is something off in your water--probably an ammonia or nitrite spike and your established fish have gotten accustomed to it--somewhat--but the new fish are unable to handle it. And now it sounds like even your established fish are having problems. Whenever you've got fish that are up at the top gasping or otherwise showing problems with breathing and then they improve, temporarily--with a partial water change you should suspect ammonia and or nitrite.

*This is what I'd do: *
If you can get some new test kits, _quickly_, do so. It's always helpful to know what the parameters are but don't delay on the rest of what I'm advising. The test-tube type are generally better than then the test strip type. 
Make sure you have a good quality dechlorinator: you need one that removes ammonia and detoxifies nitrite. Seachem Prime and Amquel Plus are both good for this. 
Do a 30% partial water change.  Use the dechlorinator according to directions for an ammonia/nitrite spike. 
Siphon the gravel. 
Check your filter/filter media. If there is excessive waste build up on the media rinse it off in a bucket of tank water and then make sure there is a good strong flow coming out of the filter outflow. You may need to drop the water level an inch or two to be able to see just how strong a flow there is. 
Several hours after the first 30% partial water change *do another 30% partial water change*. 
Feed sparingly, if at all, until we get this straightened out. Excess food, fish waste will contribute to the poor water conditions.

Please post back and update us. We definitely don't want anymore of your fish to die. 

Robin


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

> I clean the substrate before the new fish arrived (in tank water)


You cleaned the substrate? What exactly did you do?


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## loffy74 (Sep 28, 2008)

he mentioned he tested the water, which confuses me.

you said you tested Nitrate and Nitrite.

Did you test ammonia and PH? 
These are more critical and deadly then nitrates/nitrite.

If you already did a bunch of water changes, you may not get the readings you once
had.

But the fish, may still die off from the poisoning.

Great advice from the Moderator. Most likely they are right.
I am not so sure the person has tested the critical ammonia levels.
to eliminate toxins. Good point on external toxins as well. there are no test kits
to test for gas or bleach.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

> he mentioned he tested the water,


There seemed to be some question as to the accuracy of the test kits used and since the fish are behaving as if there's a problem with the water it's a good idea to double check. Doing the two partial water changes can't do anything but help the fish and they are a test of sorts: if the fish improve with the water change--temporarily--then there's a good chance the tank water is the problem.

It's important to stagger the water changes so that you don't make an abrupt change in the water parameters--that's why I advise to wait several hours between changes. In certain cases a large water change done all at once can actually do more harm than good.



> Did you test ammonia and PH?
> These are more critical and deadly then nitrates/nitrite.


*You are right:* the ammonia is probably the most deadly, but nitrite poisoning will also seriously injure and kill a fish. Adding salt, sodium chloride, at the rate of 1-2 teaspoons per ten gallons will help detoxify nitrite. (And your concern about bloat is also well-founded--whatever is going on in the tank is sure to stress the fish and a stressed fish is always more susceptible to disease--bloat being the most likely.)



> I had washed a bit of the filter but again nitrite 0 so if I had done too much a delayed peak ?


Do you mean that you washed the filter media in tap water? That could have wiped out your nitrifying bacteria, (the bacteria that keeps your tank cycled) and could definitely have caused your tank to re-cycle or go through a mini cycle--either of which could have caused the problems you're seeing.

Robin


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## loffy74 (Sep 28, 2008)

i hope he gives some follow up, I know we all want to help and hear 
we know things are better.


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## stewfox (Sep 1, 2010)

Many thanks for the feed back

I am going to get a full range of new test kits today.

I cleaned the substrate in fish water.

The filter I clean 25% in tap water but have always done. I appreciate it would kill bacteria but always felt in an established tank that wouldnt be a problem.

One thing I have picked up on is the introduction of new fish.

Years ago I was always told 30/45 mins slowly mixing tank water with the water in the plastic bag they came in.

I was then told leaving the fish 30 mins in plastic bag is too stressful for the fish.

I introduce them much quicker now, could that be a problem ?

Anyway ill get some new readings today

I still can't think of anything that existing fish can live with but it would kill new fish within 24/48 hrs ?

One of the new fish was eating at midnight but dead at 5am , the other new fish always seem to struggle.

Excessive bullying but this new fish was equal largest in the tank and showed no signs of it.

Anyway lets get some new kits

All existing fish are well and eating


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## stewfox (Sep 1, 2010)

loffy74 said:


> i hope he gives some follow up, I know we all want to help and hear
> we know things are better.


Went to established aquatic store (rather then a pet store)

Spent 20 mins talking to someone who seem to know what they were talking about

Picked up Ã‚Â£30 of test kits (liquid type)

Ammonia 0, Nitrate 0 High Card PH 7.4 Nitrite 0.25

Wether nitrite there for a while and not picked up before , I need to get rid of that. The existing fish are not right after I said they were 6hrs ago !.

Also I guess PH 7.4 is too low so as per recommedation got some rock. I have no rock in there

I was also told feeding them Tetra Doromin the one for large Cichlids is too meaty and got another type. I also use Sera Granugreen and Sera Granured.

And green alge wafers for the plec.

I have been told never clean canister media in tap water. I only ever clean filter wool in tap water not the main filter media.

I havent changed the carbon for at least 6 months so was advise that would be useless in their now.

I was told Malwais should be well stocked. I only have 4 plus plec in this 4ft tank

Any other suggestions/advice ?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You should have nitrates in an established tank. Maybe you lost your bacteria colony?

What are the four Malawi you have?


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## loffy74 (Sep 28, 2008)

> I still can't think of anything that existing fish can live with but it would kill new fish within 24/48 hrs ?


existing fish can build a tolerance for bad water conditions. New fish get shocked by it.
it could be ammonia, nitrates, ph ..existing fish can adapt to poor water. New fish just
die because its to sudden of a change.

Your good readings are probably corrected by the water changes. but i would guess you
had a ammonia spike prior


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## stewfox (Sep 1, 2010)

None of the established fish are feeding.

Like a soap at the surface.

All readings seem fine.

I had used some old media

More water changes, since those new fish died haven't a clue what happened.


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## stewfox (Sep 1, 2010)

stewfox said:


> None of the established fish are feeding.
> 
> Like a soap at the surface.
> 
> ...


There are 5 , 5 week old kittens in the same room as that tank.

My partners spraying and cleaning could be the problem ? Its a open tank ?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Sprays are never a good idea in the vicinity of a fish tank open or closed. A little windex on the glass can lead to toxins in the tank.

It is also a good idea to cover Malawi tanks as the fish jump out. But a glass cover is not going to keep out toxic cleaning sprays.

And unless the possible toxin in a spray is ammonia, you are unlikely to be able to detect it in your tank.

Some foods can leave a little oil on the surface of the water (NLS) which does not hurt anything. But if you have a real coating or sudsing, I'd try to lay paper towels on the surface to absorb it. And water changes. An no sprays or fluffy dusters in the fish room, LOL.

It's not good that they are not eating. But hard to know what to treat if there are no other symptoms.


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