# HoB Overflow box to run a wet-dry



## Markolodeon (Nov 4, 2007)

I was thinking of taking a first attempt at getting a wet-dry filter running on a non-drilled tank. I looked at various out-of-the-box solutions/units and the Eshopps one that comes with the HoB overflow and all the plumbing (minus a pump) looked like a good entry-level system.

I was showing the setup to a friend who had run one before and he noticed the Eshopps overflow box does not appear to have a method for easily restarting the siphon should the power go out. He pointed out the other HoB boxes in the catalog all had little tubes so that when the siphon is stopped you, well for lack of a better word, suck on the tube to restart the flow. I thought perhaps he had finally gone mad but then noticed a product called the Aqua Lifter. This product ensures the siphon will not be broken. Does this "complete" system from EShopps have a method for re-starting the siphon when necessary? Or do you need to buy the Aqua Lifter (or something similar)?

The other thing my friend mentioned that while a newbie might tend to think the greatest likelihood of a flood is in the sump it's actually more likely to happen with the tank itself overflowing. I'm still trying to picture the whole scenario but he claimed with a HoB overflow box you're forced to keep the tank at less than full. I believe this is to cover the scenario when the overflow siphon is broken and the pump merrily empties the contents of the sump into the tank. So however big your sump is you should always have the same or greater empty space in the tank, just in case. That is of course only with HoB overflows.

So after my crash course in wet-drys I'm coming to the conclusion that unless your tanks are in a basement with a floor-drain the pre-drilled tanks are the only way to go. With a pre-drilled your only chance of a leak/flood would be an improper fitting/seal, or a crack in the tank or sump of course.

So, if there are fans of HoB Overflows I would love to hear responses to my friend's comments, and any advice anyone has to offer.

Thanks.


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## herb (Mar 23, 2003)

i don't know if i will help you or make this worse than you currently understand it, so IF you use an overflow box similar to the S.O.S. from tidepool (prolly trademarked) there is a box inside the tank and a box outside the tank, they are connected by a u tube if you have water in both the inside and outside boxes you can use a short length of air tubing and remove most of the air from u-tube, then remove air tube and the system is 'primed' now you can start the return pump and the rest of air should get removed over time from the u tube, if return pump stops for whatever reason then the water in tank drops to the top of the box inside tank), the water from inner box and outer box stays constant, the ends of u-tube should stay underwater, (the inside box is adjustable to desired water level in tank), when pump is restarted the system returns to running like before pump stopped. 
This does assume that the return pump and overflow box are sized correctly and there are no obstructions in the drain to the sump. otherwise there is not a lot more to wet dry systems, the only other thing to remember with a DIY system when tank is full and running to shut off pump and make sure the sump holds water from tank with pump off!!!!! let system rest for about 10 minutes, more time if you can, to make sure sump tank is large enough to hold water from main tank. depending on the design of system there are various adjustments that can be made but this is the bare bones basics to help you understand the idea of how it works.

herb


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## herb (Mar 23, 2003)

I did internet search and eshopps overflows are made very similar to the tidepool sos types. just to clarify previous post!!!

herb


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## Markolodeon (Nov 4, 2007)

Thank you - I will discuss tomorrow with my friend at work. The idea that I would have to keep the tank less than full is not appealing, or that the pump could empty itself into the tank and all over the floor. It sounds like neither are a problem as long as the critical U-tube is in place and the system is assembled/matched properly.

Just to be sure, if you have a sump rated at 1000 gph with 6' of hose you want approximately a 1000 gph pump at six feet, yes?


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## fishyfishyfishy (Dec 24, 2005)

A properly setup overflow system will never overflow your sump or your tank and without the need for any check valves either.

First, stay away from the the flat type tubes that the tidepool uses. Those are more likely to build up air and break a siphon. Stick with the standard round u tube design. Check out the overflows from www.lifereef.com. Probably the best around and I've never had a failure with one nor have I ever heard from someone who has.

The sump should always be large enough so that holds enough water when the tank is shut down. A simple hole drilled in the return line just below the operating level of the tank will make sure the siphon breaks so water doesn't backflow into the sump.

The pump intake in the sump should be adjusted so that the pump simply starts sucking in air before enough water is sent back to the tank to overflow it. This can be done by adjusting the height in which the pump sits in the sump. Or, you simply put a right angle adaptor onto the intake of the pump. With the overflow stopped, you have the pump still send water back to the main tank. Once the water is at a danger zone you're comfortable with, you turn the right angle adaptor so the pump starts sucking in air.

Then you restart the system and mark the operating level in the sump. As long as you never add water higher than that level, you'll never have to worry about overflowing your tank.


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## Markolodeon (Nov 4, 2007)

^ Thanks again! The Lifereef website is an education onto itself, lots more to learn. Still the overflow box adds a lyaer of complexity for the novice, it's a lot to keep track of and a lot more to go wrong in comparison to hooking up a wet-dry to a pre-drilled tank.


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## fishyfishyfishy (Dec 24, 2005)

Pre-drilled is the way to go, but I don't see the box as adding any more complexity. Other than having to give it the initial start by sucking on a little air tube, that's about it. If anything, more could go wrong with a pre-drilled. A leaky bulkhead for example....

Pre-drilled with a built-in overflow is still my favorite way to go. Less obtrusive than a hang on type and helps hide hardware too. Pre-drilled without an overflow box and using bulkheads only is the worst way to go. This is the way the fish stores do it, but it's the noisiest way to go as well.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

A non drilled tank does not have good solutions for quiet overflow/sump operation. Thats why I got rid of mine after a few weeks.

There are two ways to provide some fail safe for an HOB overflow. First, you can use an aircheck valve on the U-tube connected to a lift pump. Second, you can hook the return pump up to a float switch.

I would do the float switch regardless of the sump/overflow setup as a backup just in case. For $60 you buy piece of mind, but thats just me.


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## fishyfishyfishy (Dec 24, 2005)

Drilling is the way to go and definitely more flexible in terms of noise solutions. But, there's a version of the durso called the stockman mod that does the same thing in a HOB design. I've got them on my father's 225g with the dual lifereef box. Perfectly silent. Same results when I had them on my old 265g.

As far as the float switch, there's no need for one as a backup. If the pump is setup properly, it's impossible for you to overflow the tank. No backup necessary.


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## Markolodeon (Nov 4, 2007)

Yes, even the lifereef website mentions noise/gurgling when using an overflow and offers a silencer of sorts. The concept of adding a Aqua Lifter is not appealing, nor is dealing with even the potential of the siphon breaking.

The scenario no one talks about is when the power goes off, the siphon is broken, power comes back on, pump turns back on, and contents of sump has nowhere to go but back into an aquarium without a siphon back into the sump. If the tank is full, the water that was in the sump is displaced over the edges of your tank onto the floor.

Again if I had a basement with a cement floor and drain I'd do a HoB overflow in a second. But in my situation the likes of a pre-drilled Corner-flo is the way togo if I want to do a wet-dry. Hands down it's the simplest, most elegant, least likely to fail, and not coincidentally the most expensive. In the case of wet-dry filtration options it seems you truly get what you pay for. The sumps on lifereef look awesome, it would be great to have them put together a system.


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## fishyfishyfishy (Dec 24, 2005)

Markolodeon said:


> The scenario no one talks about is when the power goes off, the siphon is broken, power comes back on, pump turns back on, and contents of sump has nowhere to go but back into an aquarium without a siphon back into the sump. If the tank is full, the water that was in the sump is displaced over the edges of your tank onto the floor.quote]
> 
> That's exactly the scenario I've been describing. As the water in the sump drops, the pump should start to suck in air before it can send enough water back to the tank to overflow it onto the floor.
> 
> ...


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## imusuallyuseless (Dec 28, 2005)

> The scenario no one talks about is when the power goes off, the siphon is broken, power comes back on, pump turns back on, and contents of sump has nowhere to go but back into an aquarium without a siphon back into the sump. If the tank is full, the water that was in the sump is displaced over the edges of your tank onto the floor.


Ummm, no. A properly designed and setup overflow will not lose siphon in the event of a power outage...


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## Markolodeon (Nov 4, 2007)

^ Again in the scenario where the power goes out, the pump shuts off, and the sump fills until the overflow box empties -yes? Instead of water reaching up to the U-tube in the overflow box it is now air. Then, power turns back on as does the pump. What part of this power turning back on causes the overflow gravity siphon to begin flowing water again back into the sump? This is a very simple question!


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## imusuallyuseless (Dec 28, 2005)

Markolodeon said:


> ^ Again in the scenario where the power goes out, the pump shuts off, and the sump fills until the overflow box empties -yes? Instead of water reaching up to the U-tube in the overflow box it is now air. Then, power turns back on as does the pump. What part of this power turning back on causes the overflow gravity siphon to begin flowing water again back into the sump? This is a very simple question!


*NO the overflow box does not empty! As I said a properly designed and setup overflow will maintain siphon in the event of a power outage. When the power goes out the water level in the overflow box will only drain until the top of the standpipe.*

Your system should look like this when the power is on and water is flowing.









When the power shuts off, water will continue to drain, but only to the point of the top of the standpipe in the outer overflow box.









As long as both ends of the u tube stay submerged the siphon should be maintained. So it's not a question of the siphon restarting, as that would be pretty much impossible w/o the aid of a powerhead, but rather that the siphon is maintained even though there is no water flowing through it.


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## fishyfishyfishy (Dec 24, 2005)

Yep. Normal operation is more to fear then a power outage. Little bits of air can accummulate at the top of the u tube and eventually break the siphon. This is more common in the flat tube designs like the tidepool or the CPRs. But, this can happen in the round tubes as well.

It's the built-in overflows where the water drops below the drain, but of course no siphon is needed to re-start those.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

Markolodeon said:


> The scenario no one talks about is when the power goes off, the siphon is broken, power comes back on, pump turns back on, and contents of sump has nowhere to go but back into an aquarium without a siphon back into the sump. If the tank is full, the water that was in the sump is displaced over the edges of your tank onto the floor.


I don't know where this idea comes from but I see it every time an overflow is discussed. This situation has been explained so many time and it is just not a realistic point - unless you do not have your overflow setup correctly. And thats a big unless - and it doesn't even make sense. Anything setup incorrectly can be dangerous. I mean, if I drill a hole in my tank below the water line, water will pour out - but I'm generally inclined to not do that. I think its OK when people ask the question of what happens, but I really wish people wouldn't reiterate these false claims.

There are probably thousands of people using utube overflows with no problems. AND if you have an HOB overflow you can easily test it by unplugging your pump and then plugging it back it - see what happens. In fact this is something you should/must do once you install it to make sure everything is setup correctly. When you unplug your pump you should get the second picture useless posted. When you plug the pump back in it should start siphoning again.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

fishyfishyfishy said:


> Drilling is the way to go and definitely more flexible in terms of noise solutions. But, there's a version of the durso called the stockman mod that does the same thing in a HOB design. I've got them on my father's 225g with the dual lifereef box. Perfectly silent. Same results when I had them on my old 265g.


I would propose a clarification. A durso/stockman (which I have used) will make it quiet-er. I am always skeptical of the "perfectly silent" claim. I have learned time and time again that silent means its not the loudest thing in the setup. Any drain pipe that has air and water in it will produce sound by definition. You can reduce that noise through better drain pipes and mufflers but it doesn't go away. In my case my tank is very very quiet. When I added a sump I tried all sorts of contraptions to keep it quiet and none of them were acceptable. I spent weeks researching and experimenting and I only found one method I know of that will work but that only works on drilled tanks.



fishyfishyfishy said:


> As far as the float switch, there's no need for one as a backup. If the pump is setup properly, it's impossible for you to overflow the tank. No backup necessary.


This is not true. There are two reasons.

First, In regards to loosing siphon from power outage I agree, but in normal operation this is not true. What if something clogged your drain pipe? Unless you have a backup overflow then the pump would transfer all of the water from the sump to your non-draining tank. If you have more than a few gallons of water in your sump then you will create an unintentional waterfall - and not the pretty kind. This scenario can happen (and is probably more likely) in a drilled tank as well. Thats why I think its a good addition to any sump.

Second, as you mentioned, a utube can loose siphon with the accumulation of air at the top of the tube. That is why some people use the lift pump. It costs like $10 and probably takes 10 minutes to install - I am not sure why anyone using a utube overflow would not use a lift pump. In fact I know there is one commercial setup that includes a lift pump for this reason.

Between the lift pump and the float valve you are talking about like $70 to triple guarantee a safe tank. I used to work in the aerospace industry so it is in my mindset to triple protect everything. I know its not for everyone.


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## fishyfishyfishy (Dec 24, 2005)

There really isn't much to fear with the HOBs. I used one for years without incident and my father still does. Going on maybe 5/6 years with the lifereef and an amiracle before that.

Sure there's a chance of a HOB losing siphon, but it's pretty remote and I think there is more fear of this happening than necessary. Still, if you really want fail safe, built-in is the only way to go.

But, I would easily use a HOB again without reservation. The only reason I prefer not to use them is their too obtrusive. I prefer a nice built-in overflow that disappears into a black background. I hate seeing hardware of any kind in my tanks. I also prefer the way the built-in overflows can pull water from the bottom and middle of the tank.

There are other considerations to be concerned with in the event of loss of siphon like potential loss of biological or pumps running dry and burning out but a flood on your floor is absolutely not one of them.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

I've never used an HOB overflow for more than two months so your evaluation is more important - and I think the consensus is that you will never have a problem with the. I don't want to make it seem like I'm not saying to not use them. If you search the forum you find many people use them quite satisfactorily. I think it just depends which side of the fence you are on. I just like to provide people as much information as possible to be able to make the best decisions possible...for them.

And like I said I think the drainage clog seems more likely for predrilled tank with internal overflows. If you go on the saltwater forums you will find tons of stories of big snails getting into the overflows.

And I think you make a good point that everyone has different priorities. I live on the second floor of an apartment building so if my tank flooded cleaning up the mess is not the only problem. I'm sure I would have to pay for damage. But still, it is not uncommon to have a large sump with a large volume of water. I can't even imagine spilling a 5gal bucket full of water - I really wouldn't want 20 gallons of water on my floor.


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## fishyfishyfishy (Dec 24, 2005)

boredatwork said:


> fishyfishyfishy said:
> 
> 
> > Drilling is the way to go and definitely more flexible in terms of noise solutions. But, there's a version of the durso called the stockman mod that does the same thing in a HOB design. I've got them on my father's 225g with the dual lifereef box. Perfectly silent. Same results when I had them on my old 265g.
> ...


Every tank will yield different results with noise. I'm a nut about noise and when I say his is perfectly silent with the aqua silencers, it is. Now that's with a Mag 12 on it. Increase to a bigger pump and that may not be the case.

As far as the float switch, I'm sorry but there is zero need for it. I have ball valves installed on the drains on my 450g so I can completely stop the flow from the drain pipes. As I described earlier, I have right angle adpators installed on the intake of my pump. With the right angle adaptor facing the bottom of the sump, I allow the pump to continue sending water back to the tank. Once the water gets high enough, but without overflowing, I turn the right angle adaptor so that the pump is now sucking in air at that point. Now it physically can't pump any more water back to the tank and overflow it.

Once that was established, I simply opened the ball valves so the tank began draining again and the sump recovered. Then I marked that line and I know if I put any water in the sump higher than that mark, that amount could overflow the tank and onto the floor. It's fail safe and no electronics to fail.


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## Markolodeon (Nov 4, 2007)

^ Thank you for the brilliant diagram, for a newbie it is invaluable. My friend must have done something wrong, and/or had a poorly designed overflow box.

But as fff says above (setting aside lifereef's claims) it is indeed possible, for a variety of reasons, to lose siphon. There, it's been said. They make $10 products to help ensure it doesn't happen. And if it does, and you don't have room in your tank for the contents of the sump, you are rewarded with a small flood. My friend said his "solution" was to make certain there was always room in the tank for the contents of the sump (and vice versa if the pump shut off). He covered up the gap at the top of the tank (that would hold this potential water from the sump) with a home-built canopy.

Pre-drilled tanks with drain and return plumbing make the HoB solution seem hopelessly outdated and obsolete. If you already have a tank set up than maybe the HoB overflow is the right way to go.

If I were starting new and had the $ I'd go with something along the lines of one of the lifereef setups. My guess is it would be right around a $1K for a sump, pump and overflow on say a 125 gallon/6-foot tank. They recommended the LF2-150 ($600) for that size tank. The HoB overflow is another $200 which I believe if you redirected that money you're getting pretty darn close to the price of a pre-drilled Corner-flo tank. So why buy a standard tank and go with the overflow box if you're starting new? That one seems like a hands-down easy decision, and setting aside plumbing leaks, the Corner-flo ensures a flood/hassle-free filtration system.

Still, as much as I know wet-dry is the right answer it's a comparatively expensive one in comparison to my standard approach of canisters and Aquaclears. For around $900 I'm very close to a fully functional 125 moving 1700 gph using the old-school approach. In comparison using Lifereef's and Perfeto's products as an example/combo a fully functional 125 gallon Corner-flo would be around $1800. The poor guy's method (who clearly has difficulty grasping simple physic concepts and is not handy or inventive by any stretch of the imagination) may not be as good, but it works.

No question though, I definitely wish for something better!


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## Markolodeon (Nov 4, 2007)

Thanks again to all for helping me with my newbie questions. The post originated because my friend did have the failure I described and the contents of his sump was displaced onto his basement floor over the edges of the tank. When you're contemplating trying new technology you tend to pay attention to these sort of experiences. This has been a good place to hear what others think and I really appreciate that, it helps sort through all the choices out there.


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## Fishbulb2 (Sep 23, 2008)

If you can I would avoid any type of external overflow box and just drill the tank yourself or rely on standard power filters. I've used external overflows for many years now and I've had three floods from them in total over about ten years. Most were not bad but one cost me several hundred dollars when the downstairs neighbors complained. The first flood was really stupid (but these things happen). I had a bloom of hair algae that had to wait till the weekend to be taken care of because of work. Well it clogged up the over flow before then and caused a small flood while I was home. That one might have happened even with a drilled tank for sure. The next two were with my current Lifereef set up. The first flood was the disaster that flooded our floor. Over the course of several months the flow from my eheim slowed down enough (as is typically the case when sludge forms on the walls of the return lines and such) to the point where bubbles accumulated in the overflow tube and the siphon couldn't keep up. It only took about 4 gallons or so to go through our floor and have the apartment below us contact the land lord. We were out about $400. More recently, the plastic screw that is used to adjust the height of the internal box on the lifereef loosened on me. The inside box shifted up until the bottom of the utube was sealed off by the bottom of the inside box. The siphon couldn't flow in this case so again the tank overflowed. Overall, it is just not worth this mess. Although it's trivial to look back at all of these cases and determine what I could have done differently, things can always just happen. With all of the modern power filters, canisters, and how easy it is to drill your own tank, it's just not worth the risk.

FB


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## fishyfishyfishy (Dec 24, 2005)

But there should be no risk of overflowing your tank....other than the risk of setting up incorrectly. 

Even with 100% blockage of the drain, the sump/pump should not be physically able to overflow the tank. If your tank overflows onto the floor, there was too much water in the sump.

And even when this happens, the amount of water on the floor is at least limited by the amount of water in the sump. If a canister develops a leak, it could drain almost your entire tank if the intake tube goes down far enough into the tank, which usually they do.


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## Fishbulb2 (Sep 23, 2008)

fishyfishyfishy said:


> But there should be no risk of overflowing your tank....other than the risk of setting up incorrectly.


That's just not true. Things change over time, constantly. Nothing in your set up will be identical in six months after you set it up.



> Even with 100% blockage of the drain, the sump/pump should not be physically able to overflow the tank. If your tank overflows onto the floor, there was too much water in the sump.


You must have a pretty small sump volume or a lot of space empty in your display to pull this off. It is certainly not the norm in any sump system I've ever seen.



> And even when this happens, the amount of water on the floor is at least limited by the amount of water in the sump. If a canister develops a leak, it could drain almost your entire tank if the intake tube goes down far enough into the tank, which usually they do.


40 gallons or 4 gallons. Didn't really seem to matter too much. We paid for entire professional cleaning of the downstairs apartment. Any system that relies on the "well, it's only a limited flood" should be reconsidered.

FB


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## fishyfishyfishy (Dec 24, 2005)

Yes, things change over time, but with the method I described in this thread, it is impossible to ever oveflow a tank. What will not change is the maximum water any setup can hold. My sump is quite large. You can see the pics for yourself on my website. The water level in all my tanks operate at normal levels. There's no cheats here like covering a big gap with a canopy. The water in my 450g is within an inch of the top of the tank.

40 gallons or 4 gallons may not matter much, but I'll tell you what, I'll take the 4 gallons any day of the week. But, regardless, there is zero flood with my method and I wouldn't want to rely on a system that has a limited flood either.


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## Markolodeon (Nov 4, 2007)

I should have prefaced all of this by mentioning I too live an apartment. In some ways the physical location of the aquarium helps to determine the "best" filtration option, or alleviate worries. In my case I need to take the lowest-risk route of having to call the landlord.

Setting aside money (which I'd love to do but can't) there really in theory is no more of a flood hazard with a overflow failing and a canister developing a leak. While I've never had a can leak the posts I've read about it seem to indicate it usually is a slow one, usually around one of the seals or pressure fittings. I've never heard of a hose coming off a canister and emptying a tank to wherever the intake tube ends, altho I'm sure it has happened (and I'm surprised we don't hear about it more).

So really when it gets down to it, and after reading these posts, talking with my fish-friend, the flood risk between canisters and a wet-dry system are pretty close to the same. They both can, and will continue to occasionally fail for a variety of reasons including old-fashioned human stupidity/ignorance.

The pre-drilled again seems like the lowest risk, as long as you keep an eye on the drain tube(s) and make sure it's always clean. The other of course is $, so I'm off to buy a lotto ticket .


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

fishyfishyfishy said:


> But there should be no risk of overflowing your tank....other than the risk of setting up incorrectly.


I also strongly disagree with that for this reason...



fishyfishyfishy said:


> Even with 100% blockage of the drain, the sump/pump should not be physically able to overflow the tank. If your tank overflows onto the floor, there was too much water in the sump.


That, to me, is a very unrealistic assumption. I don't know any sumps that use an amount of water that is not enough to overflow the main tank. Most sumps for larger tanks are at least 10 gallons of extra water. On my 125G tank I have at most a 1/2" gap between my water line and the top of the tank - thats about 3 gallons of water that it can handle before it overflows. If I had 3 gallons of water in a sump that would barely cover the water line of a pump intake.



fishyfishyfishy said:


> And even when this happens, the amount of water on the floor is at least limited by the amount of water in the sump.


That is exactly the problem. Thats why I originally recommended a float switch. I think we are talking about two different scenarios and I think the scenario you are referring to is not normal. Most people try to maximize the amount of water added to the tank with the sump not minimize it.



fishyfishyfishy said:


> If a canister develops a leak, it could drain almost your entire tank if the intake tube goes down far enough into the tank, which usually they do.


I was actually going to mention this to. I was thinking about this yesterday, there are a lot of pieces of equipment in the tank, and failure of any of them can be catastrophic - flooding, loss of fish, fire, the tank breaking or falling over etc. So, to some extent all of these precautions are not necessarily logically safeguarded.

However, like I said before, I have heard many times of drains getting clogged so I think this is a situation worth guarding against.


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## fishyfishyfishy (Dec 24, 2005)

The statement that the amount of water in the sump is all that would spill on the floor would only be a scenario for someone who had too much water in the sump. Agree or disagree with something being set up wrong as not having relevance, but the fact of the matter is that even that amount spilling is not a possibility using the method I've described.

As far as the amount of water in the sump, you can maximize the water in your system just the same as before. You still need to be concerned with how much your sump can hold during a power shutduwn. But the amount of water below the point at which the pump starts sucking in air is irrelevant because the pump will not physically be capable of sending that water back to the tank.

All that matters is that the pump intake be adjusted so that it starts sucking in air before it can send enough water back to the tank without overflowing it. So if your tank can only hold about 3 gallons before it overflows, than the pump intake should be adjusted so that it starts sucking in air before it can send any more than that back to the tank.


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## Markolodeon (Nov 4, 2007)

^ Interesting! I'm used to my tanks having no room for extra water at all, I like the topped-off look. Even a standard 125 down 3 gallons is noticeable imho.

So another lesson, wet-drys are best used on very large aquariums where the theoretical contents of the sump (yes, set up and matched to the tank size correctly) can be absorbed into the aquarium.


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## fishyfishyfishy (Dec 24, 2005)

As long as the level is behind the frame of the tank, there'd be no way to tell the difference. Filter choice aside, I never kept my water levels that close to the top of the frame anyway. That can cause splasing/dripping down the sides from the fish as they eat and further increase salt creep in a saltwater tank. Even in a fresh, it can increase deposits along the top of the frame. This is one of the great advantages of a wet/dry setup is that you maintain a constant water level in your tank. I can keep the water level in the tank as low as possible, but still behind the tank frame so no gap can be seen. This will never lower due to evaporation and allows me to maximize the amount of water the tank can absorb from the sump.

But anyway, you bring up a good point. I can see things are clicking for you...

Yes, ideally the tank should be able to hold the contents of the sump just like the sump should be able to hold the contents of the tank.

By manipulating the intake height of the pump either up or down by twisting it with a right angle adaptor, you maintain control of when the pump starts sucking in air and stops sending water back to the tank. You're no longer burdened by the fixed height of the pump.

This is not much different than those people or your LFS who simply drill their tanks on the back, stick a bulkhead in and put a right angle adaptor on the drain along with a strainer. By twisting the right angle adaptor up or down, the water level in the tank can be adjusted because you're adjusting the height at which the water and air mix. Same thing with my method, by twisting the right angle adaptor up or down on the pump intake, the point at which water and air mix can be adjusted as well so you can control when the pump stops sending water back to the tank.


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## Markolodeon (Nov 4, 2007)

So, given all, this, what is everyone's preference for drilled tanks? Do you prefer the Aqueon/All-Glass approach with the intakes/outakes on the back or the Perfecto Corner-flos, or buy a tank and get it drilled by someone who hopefully knows what they are doing, or, I'm sure GlassCages offers a pre-drilled tank, or ?

I was at the LFS again tonight and the owner really likes the new Marineland sump systems, has one set up, and he stepped me through it again. Gotta say I like it too, the only complaint is I'm not thrilled with the construction of the megabio-wheel. Otherwise from a maintenance standpoint it still looks like the only way to go. You can pull the trays out while it's running, pretty nifty.

Getting back to drilled-tank preferences, he said he greatly prefers the hardware that comes withe Aqeons over the Perfectos.

Thoughts? I'm guessing most are DIY'rs.


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## fishyfishyfishy (Dec 24, 2005)

I wouldn't bother getting a tank drilled. The drill a hole on the back method with no overflow is a noisy method with little solutions. The all-glass megaflow is a great overflow. It pulls in water from the top, middle and bottom which improves circulation and filtration. They take up some decent space in the tank though, but if you use a black background, they blend in nicely.
I've got the megaflow overflow in my AGA 54 corner. I copied the design for my other tanks which were custom made. I designed the overflows though to be less obtrusive by making them wider so I could reduce the depth.

As far as sumps, those Marinelands look like newer versions of the old tidepools. I'd stay away from them. It looks like for one, they have submerged inlets and they're very noisy. I also found those media trays clogged easily and water overflowed and it got very splashy as they overflowed. Overall the old tidepools were noisy and these appears to possibly be even worse.

Stay away from the All Glass Megaflows as well. Also very noisy due to the submerged inlets along with other numerous issuess.

Take a look at the models offered from this ebay seller:

http://cgi.ebay.com/AQUARIUM-WET-DRY-FI ... m153.l1262

I've got several of these between myself, family and friends. It's a simple design but it's easily the best I've used. Large media tray is enclosed to prevent splashing. The tray completely slides out over the sump along guides. This makes swapping pads quick and easy. Sump area is generous as well. And without the needed overflow box, the prices are quite reasonable.


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## greenbirds (Jul 30, 2007)

One thing should be mentioned about bubbles in a round U-tube. If your flow through the tube is fast enough (you have a pump pushing a good flowrate, but of course not more than the overflow or u-tube can handle), bubbles will get swept through the tube and out. I have seen systems with slower flowrates accumulate bubbles. My setup has run for over a year and I have never seen a bubble caught in the tube -- and the way water spills into my overflow, there are a ton of bubbles moving through there, pea-sized and smaller.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

fishyfishyfishy said:


> The statement that the amount of water in the sump is all that would spill on the floor would only be a scenario for someone who had too much water in the sump. Agree or disagree with something being set up wrong as not having relevance, but the fact of the matter is that even that amount spilling is not a possibility using the method I've described.
> 
> As far as the amount of water in the sump, you can maximize the water in your system just the same as before. You still need to be concerned with how much your sump can hold during a power shutduwn. But the amount of water below the point at which the pump starts sucking in air is irrelevant because the pump will not physically be capable of sending that water back to the tank.
> 
> All that matters is that the pump intake be adjusted so that it starts sucking in air before it can send enough water back to the tank without overflowing it. So if your tank can only hold about 3 gallons before it overflows, than the pump intake should be adjusted so that it starts sucking in air before it can send any more than that back to the tank.


Ahhhh...I totally did not understand it before. Now I get it. Thats actually a really great setup.


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## fishyfishyfishy (Dec 24, 2005)

greenbirds said:


> One thing should be mentioned about bubbles in a round U-tube. If your flow through the tube is fast enough (you have a pump pushing a good flowrate, but of course not more than the overflow or u-tube can handle), bubbles will get swept through the tube and out. I have seen systems with slower flowrates accumulate bubbles. My setup has run for over a year and I have never seen a bubble caught in the tube -- and the way water spills into my overflow, there are a ton of bubbles moving through there, pea-sized and smaller.


Yep, you're right. Combined with low flow is where this can be a problem. Goes along with what I mentioned previously...loss of siphon issues are more of a concern during normal operation than a power shut down.


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## mithesaint (Oct 31, 2006)

Markolodeon said:


> I should have prefaced all of this by mentioning I too live an apartment. In some ways the physical location of the aquarium helps to determine the "best" filtration option, or alleviate worries. In my case I need to take the lowest-risk route of having to call the landlord


Don't have an aquarium then :lol: Kidding aside, depending on the size of your tank, why not just stick with HOB filters then? I know that sumps and canisters do a much much better job of filtration, but your odds of getting a leak from a HOB type filter are pretty slim. Just a thought.


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