# To Buff the water or not that is the ?



## GotCichlids? (May 21, 2010)

Hello all again!
I have a new situation on my hands! My PH is currently 7.8 and my water was hard emphases on was! The place that I live just added/fixed a water softener on the house and I don't know how this is going to effect my fish! I was thinking about just using the line from the city but when they installed the WS system they didn't make a line out from the city and the line runs straight into the system. The system also treats the water to the outside hose lines  so I can't fill up from there either to get city water. So I'm now at the point of using a buffer on the treated water to not only put my PH over the 8.0 mark (would like it at like 8.2) but also hardening my water as the system is making it soft. I have read the article about the Rift Lake Buffer so I have the recipe. Is there a part of it I can do to just harden the water and not change the PH as I know that 7.8 isn't that bad and the most important thing is to stay consistent so I don't want to hurt my fish moving it up to 8.2. I haven't done a WC since the system was added two days ago but will be needing to do one in the next couple days as I'm going out of town for just over a week so quick replies will be much appreciated! All suggestions will be highly considered weather to keep the PH the same as the water softener doesn't effect that and just do something about the hardness your use the whole recipe and just change it all PH GH KH?


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## jzdanows (Jun 20, 2010)

Epson salt (magnesium sulfate) raises general hardness, while backing soda(sodium bicarbonate) raises PH (per hydrion) and KH (carbonate hardness). I you keep rift lake cichlids they like high PH, or alkaline, and hard water. you should only raise PH .2 every 24 hours. You should only raise GH 2-4 degrees every 24 hours but it is less important if you go more. Raising PH to fast will surely kill them. this is all explained in the libarary on this website, check it out. as far as hardening softened water Iam not sure, I know it is salt that softens so I don't know if hardening water that has been softened is ok, but Iam sure someone on this site knows the answer.


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## GotCichlids? (May 21, 2010)

Epson salt is different than the API aquarium salt right?


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## ceech (Jul 4, 2010)

I use buffer salts with no problems at all i cant see why you wont be able to do it yourself .
As long as you work out how much you need and nevr change this i see no problem at all.
i have also heard of some making the water the night before in a big drum and heating for it to raise before adding to the tank.I am going to make a diy system that i add tap water to a 30 gallon tank the night before treat with kh salt and have a heater to keep at a nice temp and then add the next day.then this way i can asure that my ph levels will stay good in my tank.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

Yes... Epsom salt differs from API Aquarium Salt.

Epsom Salt = Magnesium Sulfate
API Aquarium Salt = Sodium Chloride

I don't keep Africans, so I have to defer to those that do. But I do have a decent grasp of water chemistry and continue to question the practice of relying soley upon Epsom Salt to increase hardness.

Water Hardness has two impacts.

First.... it influences TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) values and TDS values have the single most significant impact to fish osmoregulation. It is obvious that evolution has engineered the body chemistry of Rift Lake Cichlids to withstand (and prefer) water with very high TDS values. But if the purpose of increasing hardness is only to provide the benefit of increasing TDS values, you could do that with nothing more than plain ole salt (Sodium Chloride). Which no one will claim as producing the same level of benefits to keeping Africans as hardening the water. So there has to be something else.

Which brings in the second physiological influence of increasing hardness, which is hard water contains increased levels of specific trace elements, of which Magnesium (which is provided by the Epsom Salt) is usually a lesser concentration than is Calcium (which is not provided by Epson Salt). So if you want to provide true replication of Rift Lake water it is going to take more than Epsom Salt, as Epsom Salt only allows for the Magnesium component, leaving out the Calcium component altogether, and research indicates calcium is more important (in this equation) to fish health than is magnesium.

Then you have the added complication of working with "softened water". Water Softeners only soften the water as it relates to lathering up soap, improving the softness of your cloths after laundering, and not living rings in the tub. However, water that passes through a water softener has the same TDS values as water that does not. It's just that the components that make up the TDS levels moves from calcium and magnesium to sodium (or potentially potassium, depending on the type of softener in use). So there is no benefit (as it relates to TDS values) to futher buffering the water. And by futher buffering artifically softened water, you run the risk of jacking TDS values to outrageously high levels. I often wonder if this may be one of the causes of "bloat' (the actual swollen body kind) in African cichlids as this would be one of the symptoms of outrageous TDS values affecting osmoregulation, preventing the fish from properly maintaining its body fluid levels.

As I stated, I don't keep Africans, and much of the above is speculation, albeit well researched speculation. But I cannot speak from experience, because I don't keep Africans. But if I were in the same boat, chances are (if I did not convert to conditioned R/O water) I would use the softened water and only buffer the KH (if it were below 7dGH), not the General Hardness. Then I would supplement with something such as SeaChem Cichlid (or Freshwater) Trace to provide the necessary trace elements the water softener has removed (products which I have used, that do not increase GH).

The only aspects of GH that we care about are it's influence on TDS values and the trace elements it represents. If using water from a water softener, the TDS values are the same as the hard water before it passes through the softener, so we don't need help there. What we need, in my opinion, are the trace elements, packaged in a form that does not further increase TDS, which can be provided for via commercial products such as the SeaChem Freshwater Trace products.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

The outside hose doesn't need nor should it have softened water. I would change that and add a tap you can use for the fish. The installers took the short route and didn't do the job right. this would be a good DIY project.


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## rarefaction (Aug 6, 2009)

*kmuda*
=D> Well said. The only part I didn't see in your post was Epsom salt's laxative effect. Some believe using epsom salt in their buffer mix is a preventitive measure for bloat as well as a GH booster. Personally, I believe proper diet is a better approach to avoiding bloat. Just another two cents....


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

BillD said:


> The outside hose doesn't need nor should it have softened water. I would change that and add a tap you can use for the fish. The installers took the short route and didn't do the job right. this would be a good DIY project.


Well now, in my situation (on a well) the softener was installed at the pressure tank, an area of the laundry room where space was available, in doing this it would require more work and be counter-intuitive not to soften the outside spigots. I personally added a T to the line that runs from the well pressure tank to the softener for water changes, but no my entire house is softened and at the price of copper it wouldn't make much sense to save the tiny bit of salt I would save by not softening the outside.


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## GotCichlids? (May 21, 2010)

Ok so if i do decide to add a line from the city to get my water before it goes into the system that wouldn't be that big of a deal I just don't know if i can get it done before I go out of town. Even if I use this method and continue to use the tap water that isn't softened should I still use the seachem to add the trace elements that is probably not in the tab water? Or are they naturally in tap water and only removed and replaced with the sodium (in this case with the system they are using) by the softener? If I use the water from the house that is softened from the softener the PH shouldn't be effected nor the general hardness I think this is what has been said. Now just that the GH is the same but now containing of the particals of dissolved sodium and not the Mag and Cal which I should them supplement with SeaChem? I hope I'm getting this right haha and what should I use product wise to adjust my KH with the softened water?


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

You misunderstood a bit. It's a relatively complicated equation. :lol:

Your water softener WILL reduce GH. It does not reduce TDS. Under normal circumstances, the primary components of TDS are comprise by GH, which is a measurement of calcuim and magnesium. When water softeners are used, 2 sodium ions are exchanged for 1 calcium or magnesium ion, so calcium and magnesium is removed, replaced with sodium. Sodium also influences TDS, so those values are unchanged, however, there will be a reduced level of calcium and magnesium, both necessary trace elements (sodium is NOT necessary).

Your PH should be fine. I see no need to increase it.

If your KH is above 7KH (German Degrees) you do not need to further buffer carbonate hardness (with Baking Soda).

What is your current GH?

But if my concepts are correct, then the GH is irrelevent as your TDS values are unchanged (and TDS values are 1/2 of the physiological impacts of GH). What is missing are the trace elements that comprise GH (calcium and magnesium removed by the water softener). So what I propose is supplemental dosing of these trace elements using SeaChem Cichlid (or Freshwater) Trace, not to be confused with SeaChem Flourish Trace (which is a plant fertlizer).

*rarefaction*
These SeaChem products do contain Magnesium and it is the Magnesium in Epsom Salt that produces a laxative effect. So you can still maintain increased magnesium levels without the potential side effects of sulfate (brown algae, potential influence in hydrogen sulfide production).

I do not know how SeaChem packages these products, but I can testify they do not increase either KH or GH.


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## GotCichlids? (May 21, 2010)

When I had my hardness tested before the system was working it was at 8gh or that is what my friend told me when he looked at it. I haven't tested it with the system up and running b/c my API Master kit doesn't come with that and funds have been tight and it wasn't high on my list of things to get till this happened!


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

8 German Degrees for GH is pretty soft. I would see no need to add a softener. <confused>.


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## GotCichlids? (May 21, 2010)

That might not be right b/c when he tested it the first thing is that the liquid turned dark purple and he said well its between hard and really hard and I would say around 8 and thats all that was said so could it be a different scale? Also I know that they got it to remove the white spots on the dishes/glasses in dishwasher, help with clothing being washed and the calcium build up on shower heads etc.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

It would have to be a different scale.

Initially, I would stick to what I proposed, simply use what you have and add the trace elements. Then, when you have time, find a way to bypass the softener for your water changes.


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## rarefaction (Aug 6, 2009)

kmuda said:


> potential side effects of sulfate (brown algae, potential influence in hydrogen sulfide production)


Sulfate = brown algae, eh? Interesting... Thanks for the new brain wrinkle.
My buffer mix for my Malawi's is only Sodium Bicarbonate and seachem cichlid salt at 1/2 the recommended dosage. I had a shift from green to brown algae a few years ago but had always blamed it on a change in the lighting (reduction). We had a water main break that caused us to switch to R/O a year or two ago, that's when I used the epsom salt in the buffer mix... maybe coinciding with the change in algae color... Hmmm, I'm dangerously close to hijacking this thread at this point. sorry.... I'll stop now.


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## GotCichlids? (May 21, 2010)

Which I will add as well if this tells you anything I have been using the water from the tap and only have ever had the brown algae


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

In your case, it may not be brown algae. Something with an appearance very close to brown algae is dissipated iron, which is very common in well water. I had that problem at a former location. The only resolution (aside from increased "whole house" sedmiment filtration) was to perform water changes from water that had been allowed to sit for several days in large bins. The iron would settle to the bottom and I would scope from the top.

Your issue may be different, but it would worth investigating. For brown algae to hang around for an extended period of time is indicitive of something out of balance or it's not brown algae. And dissipated iron has an appearance almost identical to diatoms.


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## GotCichlids? (May 21, 2010)

I have city water not well water and it is only on my plants that come closest to the top of the water and some on the filter intakes looks brownish/greenish. I saw a few small spots of it on the back of the tank on the glass and the plecos made short work of that so I'm thinking it is algae.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

Aahhh... city water. Wow, not often I hear about folks hooking up water softeners for city water. 

I guess I'm pretty lucky in my area. My tap water is almost R/O quality. Basically pure rain water.

I would agree, your situation does not sound like iron settling out of the water.


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## GotCichlids? (May 21, 2010)

Yeah most places in the US I don't see why people would add a WS system to the tap water but if you do some research on the water quality of the water in central Florida areas you will def see why! I think on a national ranking central Florida has the third worse water quality in the U.S.!


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## GotCichlids? (May 21, 2010)

Here is a link and I stand corrected Pensicola FL holds the title to the number one city in the country for the worst tap water and Jacksonville, FL is the tenth! So there are at least two cities in Florida that have the countries worst tap water haha!

http://www.news4jax.com/health/21960106/detail.html


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

And from the opposite side, water in my area was recently awarded best in the state, going up for the regional competition:

http://www.kfsm.com/news/kfsm-river-val ... 1317.story

My brother lives in Perdido (on the Key). I assume he gets Pensacola water. I'll have to give him some grief. :lol:


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

I performed a bit of research last night related to this issue and thought I would update this thread, as this is where I had expoused my "hardness manifesto" (see page 1). I must say, information on the water chemistry of African Lakes is much easier to find that water chemistry of South American rivers.

In all but one of the African Rift Lakes, Calcium exists in about a 4 to 1 ratio to Magnesium. Only in Lake Tanganyika does more Magnesium exist than does Calcium, and this is in about a 2 to 1 to 3 to 1 ratio (depending on the sample site).

I was surprised at the levels of both sodium and chloride existing in all lakes, which is an indication that "softened water" or use of plain ole salt may actually provide some benefits for African tanks, provided the necessary trace elements (calcium and magnesium) are added back.

As I stated several times prior, I don't keep Africans, so I cannot speak from experience. But from the outside looking in, just looking at the chemistry, increasing both sodium and chloride (plain ole salt) would appear to be a valid practice for all Africans. Use of primarily Epsom Salt to increase hardness would only apply to Lake Tanganyika Cichlids. Other lakes would require more calcium than magnesium so I would continue to consider use of Epsom Salts to produce the necessary hardness a questionable practice for all but Lake Tanganyika.


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## Heyguy74 (Aug 11, 2005)

BillD said:


> The outside hose doesn't need nor should it have softened water. I would change that and add a tap you can use for the fish. The installers took the short route and didn't do the job right. this would be a good DIY project.


That really depends on were the hose is located and the content of the water in the well. .My houses sprinkler system has some sprinkler heads that are softened. We have a lot of iron in the well water. This will stain the side of the house a rust color if it wasn't treated. Most of the lawn is untreated. Its only those that will come close to the house that are treated. Also all outside hose connections are also softned. For the same reason. It will stain any concrete. Its very possible he is in the same situation.

However there should be a hose connection that is before the water softners.Follow the line from the main connection and see if these is a spigot on the line just before the sofnters.


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## Rick_Lindsey (Aug 26, 2002)

kmuda said:


> Other lakes would require more calcium than magnesium so I would continue to consider use of Epsom Salts to produce the necessary hardness a questionable practice for all but Lake Tanganyika.


Tanganyika is the One True Lake(tm), though, so it's all good 

Thanks for the chemistry tid-bits... you've inspired me to go do a bit of reading of my own, since I expect to have to buffer kH at the very least, I may as well make up a proper mix!

-Rick (the armchair aquarist)


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## GotCichlids? (May 21, 2010)

Thanks for all the posts guys and just to update my thread I have since started to use a buffer to increase my GH KH and slowly raise my PH (it was at only 7.6). I am raising my PH .2 every water change which shouldn't stress my fish at all and I'm planning on keeping it between 8.2 to 8.4. I am also adding Mag and Cal back into the water to provide them with these essential trace elements with out increasing my TDS to a dangerous level. I think that in 3 weeks max my water will be where it needs to be and my fish will be happy! Thanks for all the input and advice and from here on out I have a lot of experience to spread to other posters and everyone's help has been priceless thanks again!


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Always an interesting read, when the questions of water chemistry get discussed.
I know some get as much out of maintaining a given level in their tanks as I do mucking about with the "nuts-n-bolts" of filtration systems.
All good and keeps us out of the bars.
One thing that hardly gets mention is where did these fish come from.
Pretty sure the bulk of our stock is not wild caught.
These fish were not plucked from a Rift Lake, Amazon Basin, or a lake in Texas, then offered up for our purchase.
They came from a breeder, quite a few from here in Florida.
With that said, I would suspect the bulk of "Fish Ranchers" mess with their water as little as possible. 
Anything they add to the water takes away from their profit, as well as increases the work load.
Also adds to the odds of a mistake that could cause a loss of stock.
Not saying striving for area specific water chemistry is a bad thing.
Just keep in mind, doing so would be like suddenly stuffing Sushi down the throat of a 5th generation Japanese American who loves the Whopper/Big Mac and fries.
Little bites to start. 
One of the best, sometimes worst, things a fish keeper can do is micro manage his water.
With fish, it`s pretty close to all about the water, wherever that water is.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

KaiserSousay said:


> One of the best, sometimes worst, things a fish keeper can do is micro manage his water.
> With fish, it`s pretty close to all about the water, wherever that water is.


I would agree with that 100%. With South Americans, my standard advice is don't mess with it. Adapt the fish to your water or get fish that fit your water. As evidence, I kept a pair of brown discus in liquid rock well water for 8 years and these became the largest discus I have ever seen. They never spawned, but they otherwise thrived for that period of time, but I did have Angelfish spawn in that same water.

Attempting to change water parameters is dangerous... probably comes in third in the number of fish killed, with "New Tank Sydrome" being first and lazy maintenance/water change habits being second.

If you don't know what you are doing, what to look for, what to measure (it requires much more than looking at pH), leave it alone. You're probably doing more damage than good. Ideal water chemistry is much less important than stable chemistry.

That said, it's much easier to take soft water and make it hard (for Africans) than it is to take hard water and make it soft (for South Americans). But as I've theorized before on this forum, because it is such a common practice with Africans to change your tap water chemistry by increasing hardness, it would make some sense that osmotic pressure changes (or osmotic pressure extremes) could be a contributing factor in some instances of bloat (the actual swollen body type), potentially explaining the prevalence of this ailment when compared to South Americans.


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