# 29G Project



## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

Hey guys,

I've been keeping African Cichlids for about eight months now. I started out with a 10 gallon tank (mistake), was given a 20 High (mistake, but an upgrade), and started really reading about cichlids. I found this forum in December or so and have been reading in the site library and forums. I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of habitat and water conditions now. I purchased a 29G tank kit for a crazy low price from the mom and pop LFS in my town and they even gave me $40 of credit to buy some yellow labs. I've had a harem now since January and I actually just got my first batch of fry last week! Post located here: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=260225

I'm in the process of moving to a new place and will only be in this town another year (hence not upgrading to a 55G tank, yet). In July, I'm planning on keeping the lab fry to grow out, and getting rid of the rest of my stock. I plan on purchasing some P. Saulosi fry from Cichlid-Forum member to go in the 29G. I'm taking the opportunity of moving to add some upgrades to my tank to make the cichlids more comfortable.

First, I'm going to buy a Fluval C3 for filtration. Second, I'm going to get some CaribSea Eco-Complete African Cichlid Substrate. Third, I'm going to buy some more lace rock and possibly a piece of Texas Holey Rock. I'll leave the stock heater, hood, and light on the tank. I have a black background on the tank and will leave that for now. I'll leave the stand alone as well.

I'm pretty excited about this project and I'm going to update this thread with pictures once everything is installed in the tank and ready to be stocked. Please feel free to comment with suggestions or concerns! I know my fish are going to be really happy with the upgrades to their habitat. If I can't provide a larger area for them, I want to at least address their other parameters.


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

Sounds like a good start! If you want to keep the labs and soulosi together I would get that 55G sooner than later. Even better, I'd go for a 75G. They are great mbuna tanks! I love mine!


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

clhinds78 said:


> Sounds like a good start! If you want to keep the labs and soulosi together I would get that 55G sooner than later. Even better, I'd go for a 75G. They are great mbuna tanks! I love mine!


Thanks for the input! Actually, the plan is to immediately introduce the P. Saulosi to the 29 once it's cycled and no longer cloudy. I've heard the cycling process is very fast with the CaribSea substrate. The L. Caeruleus fry would remain in the 10G to grow out until they are close to an inch. At that time, I will be selling them to the non-bigbox LFS. I negotiated like $2.50 per fish. That would be a nice amount of store credit to go along with the credit from selling my bigger labs. I'd be using that credit to get extra lace rock, food, etc.


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

Will 20lbs of substrate be enough for the 30" tank? I'm thinking it should, hoping actually, to save on cost.


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

Zoolander said:


> Will 20lbs of substrate be enough for the 30" tank? I'm thinking it should, hoping actually, to save on cost.


20lbs should do it. Is caribsea sold in 20lb bags? The amount you need depends on how deep you want your substrate. Use the calculator to figure that out.
http://boonedocks.net/fishtank/ftweb.php


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

That calculator suggests 40 lbs. for 2 inch average depth of sand.


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

The sand:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=8976


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

Sorry to post a third time. I tried to edit the last two but it keeps telling me I can no longer edit. 

Anyway, I'm getting one bag of sand for now. Any arguments on Black vs. White sand? I'm leaning towards black.


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

Purchased:

Fluval C3
40 lbs of CaribSea African Cichlid Substrate (Zack Black Sand)
Cichlid Stones - 1 small, 1 medium II, 1 medium III, 1 large boulder

Already had:

Lace Rock
4" flower pot cave
4-6 random rocks (~6" each)

All supplies ordered. I will update the thread in a few weeks when I've moved and everything is set up. Unfortunately, I don't know if I'm going to be able to do the P. Saulosi colony anymore, but I'm keeping my yellow lab fry and my brichardi, so I'll have something to stock the tank with at least once it's set up.


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

Zoolander said:


> That calculator suggests 40 lbs. for 2 inch average depth of sand.


One inch is plenty sand with all the rocks. I start with a half inch layer of sand, place the rocks on top of that where i want them and then fill in around them with the rest of the sand. 30lbs is probably the perfect amount for your tank, to bad they don't sell them in 10lb bags!

Why no soulosi?


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

clhinds78 said:


> Why no soulosi?


It's really going to depend on whether the fry are available to purchase right when I move in and how much I get from selling my current stock. The main thing I'm concerned with is the fact that i'll be buying fry, so there is no way for me to know the sex of the fish up-front. Could get costly to replace the extra males with females.

I like the yellow labs, I just want some other colors in the tank.


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

Zoolander said:


> clhinds78 said:
> 
> 
> > Why no soulosi?
> ...


Yes, that is trick to do when ordering online. Do you have a LFS that you can buy, sell or trade fish at? Since you usually get about a 50/50 M?F ratio I'd say order 20 and plan to get rid of a few of the males.

You could also consider rusties. They are a smaller mbuna and are less aggressive. M/F ratio isn't as import with the. Plus, they have nice purple and rust coloration.


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

I'm debating rusties. Not sure how much they would be from LFS, but yes, they do buy/sell. At least the good one in town does. They are pricey though. $15 each for saulosi. We will see. I'll find out about the rusties this Sunday.


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

Zoolander said:


> I'm debating rusties. Not sure how much they would be from LFS, but yes, they do buy/sell. At least the good one in town does. They are pricey though. $15 each for saulosi. We will see. I'll find out about the rusties this Sunday.


Rusties should be a bit cheaper, just depends on what size you want. Since m/f ratio isn't as important you can buy them pretty small because they won't need sexed.


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

Getting 10 Saulosi...looks like they may come in next Friday or Saturday, depending on the day they ship.


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

Where are you getting them from?


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## NJmomie (Jan 17, 2013)

Zoolander, can you PM me the vendor you used to get your saulosi. Thank you.


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

My sand, filter, and rocks are in. I located a landscaping place nearby that should have the rocks I want, but I'm not sure if I'll be able to get there before I have to be back home to meet the movers. I'm anticipating the saulosi arriving at some point tomorrow, so I'm planning on having a tank setup at my new place at about noon central. I probably wont be able to post any pictures for several days, but I will update this thread as things progress.


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

Zoolander said:


> My sand, filter, and rocks are in. I located a landscaping place nearby that should have the rocks I want, but I'm not sure if I'll be able to get there before I have to be back home to meet the movers. I'm anticipating the saulosi arriving at some point tomorrow, so I'm planning on having a tank setup at my new place at about noon central. I probably wont be able to post any pictures for several days, but I will update this thread as things progress.


Will your tank be cycled before you get the fish since you are moving? IT would be a good idea to get the rocks as soon as your can. It will help the fish acclimate to a new environment and give them some places to hide.


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

Since I'm only moving about 200 yards to the new place, I'm going to be able to salvage at least half of the tank water. I'm going to put them in my 10G with my lab fry (the labs will be in a breeder net for now) while the 30G cycles. I'm hoping that will not take too long to accomplish. I'll have the Aqueon filter running alongside the new C3 to utilize the old media.

I have a few cichlid stones and some rocks from the previous tank to use.


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

Zoolander said:


> Since I'm only moving about 200 yards to the new place, I'm going to be able to salvage at least half of the tank water. I'm going to put them in my 10G with my lab fry (the labs will be in a breeder net for now) while the 30G cycles. I'm hoping that will not take too long to accomplish. I'll have the Aqueon filter running alongside the new C3 to utilize the old media.
> 
> I have a few cichlid stones and some rocks from the previous tank to use.


Sounds good!

Idid something similar when my apartment was recarpeted. I kept my fish in a 20L tank with a few of their rocks for about two weeks and it worked just fine.


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

Update: Was able to save roughly 40% of the water from my 29G and 75% of the water from my 10G.

My Saulosi came in on Friday at about 3 p.m. I bought 10 fry and only had one death. They are about the same size as my 15 yellow lab fry in the 10G.

I set up the 29 with one bag of the EcoComplete sand, four cichlid stones, and a flat river rock I bought as a "test" rock from a local landscaping supply company. I like the look of the river rock. At this point, I'm torn on whether I will be populating the tank with more cichlid stones ore getting more river rock. I'm trying to go with as natural a look as possible, but I'm not opposed to having two different color rocks in the tank. I may just find a balance between the river rock and the stones.

I also have the Fluval C3 up and running and went ahead and left the stock Aqueon on the tank. The Aqueon filter pad was coming up on the end of its life so there was tons of beneficial bacteria on it. Tomorrow morning I'm going to check parameters and perform a 20% water change as well as add a few of my old rocks back until I have time to get my new ones in.

As far as stock goes, I will leave all of the fry in the 10G until the lab fry are an inch. They will be sold to the mom and pop store near me for store credit. Earlier today, I sold most of my stock to the same LFS. I saved my harem of labs (1m:3f) and my brichardi and they are being housed in the 29 until the Ps. Saulosi are about 1.5".

I'll update the thread with pictures and maybe a few videos as things progress.


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

Very nice! Got any pics?

I would go with all river rock if it were me, but I like a very natural look. It's up to you tho.

What do you plan to do with the labs once the soulosi grow?


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

The manager of the LFS has agreed to get in touch with one of the places it orders from about getting me more Saulosi in the future as I inevitably re-home the excess males. Originally, they were going to charge me $15 each for unsexed juveniles, but if they can get me smaller fish for cheaper, I'm going to use all of my store credit to go ahead and buy as many smaller ones as possible to help my chances of getting a good group.


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

clhinds78 said:


> Very nice! Got any pics?
> 
> I would go with all river rock if it were me, but I like a very natural look. It's up to you tho.
> 
> What do you plan to do with the labs once the soulosi grow?


I'm taking them, but haven't had time to upload. I will do that tomorrow night if I can.

I will eventually put the cichlid stones in the 10G, I believe. I'm probably going to house the brichardi in the 10G by itself eventually and he loves caves.

I plan on re-selling them to the LFS. I'm not too keen on this, as I know they will get split up, but I wouldn't ship them, so the only other option would be someone locally picking them up.

I'd love to keep the Labs and Saulosi together, as both are relatively docile, but I'd be chastised on here!


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

$15 each sounds like a rip off. 1.5" Saulosi run about 7-8 bucks a head.

If you're attempting a natural looking setup, then ditch the 'cichlid stones.' They will not look natural.



> I'd love to keep the Labs and Saulosi together, as both are relatively docile, but I'd be chastised on here!


 :lol:

It'd be unwise to try two mbuna species in a 29, anyway.


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> $15 each sounds like a rip off. 1.5" Saulosi run about 7-8 bucks a head.
> 
> If you're attempting a natural looking setup, then ditch the 'cichlid stones.' They will not look natural.
> 
> ...


The guy said he can get them for me for cheaper than that. They just wont be sexed. But I'd be willing to buy several of them and return the extra males. I wont be paying $15 each, if I can avoid doing so.

I've decided to move the cichlid stones to the 10 gallon tank eventually. I wont be able to get the rest of the river rock for a while because I spent too much time yesterday setting my tanks up and trying to save cycled water and media. I have to spend the remainder of today getting small items from my old place and unpacking things at the new one.

I'm at the point where I've realized there aren't many mbuna that _could_ make it in a 30" tank that I'd want to fool with. I'll be happy with my eventual set-up of Saulosi. I have a feeling it's going to be a handful dealing with re-homing the extra males in a couple months.

Thanks for the advice! Pictures soon!


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

Yes, that is what makes mbuna-and cichlids in genera-a little more work than your average community fish. THe 1m/4+ females means you will have ot do some moving and rehoming of the fish.

Don't worry, your seemingly docile soulosi will become feisty once they mature, particularly the males.


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

So, it's been a while. Unfortunately, I'm just completely swamped with work and don't have the time to update with pictures of the new setup. I've also been unable to get the new river rock put in because of store hours, so I'm having to settle for my existing rock until probably early august. The nine saulosi are beginning to show more orange and a couple of them are already an inch long. It will still be a month before I'll be able to sell the lab fry and adult labs and move the saulosi into the 29G. The beauty of this project is getting to learn about the behaviors of a group of Saulosi from the fry stage to adulthood over the next year.

I will take a few pictures every few days if I can and when I've truly finished with everything I'll select the best ones to highlight the last month or so and post them.

One thing I will say is having the Fluval C3 on the tank and the sand as substrate completely changes the dynamic of the tank. It's amazing how much different the fish act and how easy it is to maintain good water quality.


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## cichlidsalldaway (Jul 24, 2013)

29g is a bit small i would upgrade as soon as possibel


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

cichlidsalldaway said:


> 29g is a bit small i would upgrade as soon as possibel


I've seen several successful 29G Saulosi species tanks. I plan to keep one male and it will be all rock work (no fake plants, wood, etc.).

I've also got the number of the guy who sold them to me and will regularly post on the forum with any problems.

As for upgrading, I plan on having this setup for a year. Once I make a my final (hopefully) move for the foreseeable future I plan on getting a 55 gallon tank.


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

Sounds like your tank is coming along nicely. Would love to see some pics!

:thumb: on the 55G tank!


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

I will post some pix on Sunday evening. Scouts honor.


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

Zoolander said:


> I will post some pix on Sunday evening. Scouts honor.


Excellant!


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

To cut down on the amount of pictures, I'm only going to post a few. Will try to get a few new pix of the Saulosi fry soon.









The box containing my new fish!








One of the two sets of five fry.








The substrate.








Cichlid Stones - Most likely will be removed in the future.








The Filter.


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

You already have soulosi fry? Nice!


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

Unfinished living room setup (still have to get daylight bulb for 10g and hide chords.








Initial set-up before putting old rocks back in.








Set-up as of 7/28. I still want to add some more rocks. Will be going all river rocks hopefully in August. They love the sand and the superior filtration!


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

clhinds78 said:


> You already have soulosi fry? Nice!


The saulosi I bought are still fry. All of them are getting close to the one inch mark now.

I still have the four labs and a brichardi in the 29G. Hoping to have them re-homed and the Saulosi in the 29 in a couple weeks.


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

Zoolander said:


> clhinds78 said:
> 
> 
> > You already have soulosi fry? Nice!
> ...


OH, ok. Very good.


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

Update: all fifteen of my yellow lab fry were introduced to the main tank to make room for the saulosi in the grow-out. The fry are growing like crazy. And one of my females is holding again. I've decided to sell all of the labs on Tuesday of next week. I'll keep the holding female, as selling her would lead to her death in her state.

I'm going to transfer the Saulosi over to the main tank next week by themselves. Once they start growing a little faster, I'll have to update with some pictures.

I've got enough store credit built up to buy 10 juvenile Saulosi (unsexed), so when the males of this batch show color, I'll easily be able to get them swapped out. Updates to follow in a week or so.

Another thing I should note is that I decided to buy a pile of cichlid stones, rather than go with river rock. I know...disappointing...but I think it turned out pretty awesome.


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

It's been several months since I have updated this thread. I initially had a harem of yellow labs living in the 29 gallon project tank along with a N. Brichardi (the nine Saulosi fry were in a breeder net in the 10 gallon). The harem was sold, along with 14 or so juveniles.

The day before I sold the fish, I noticed one of the females holding. I stripped that fish and wound up with about 14 fry. She had a few more in her mouth but I couldn't get them out after several attempts.

So at this point I had 14 yellow lab fry, nine saulosi fry, and the Brichardi (about 2.5 inches at the time). The Saulosi were around an inch and I decided it was time to introduce them to the 29 gallon. I put the brichardi in the 10 gallon by itself and put the lab fry in a breeder net, where they stayed for a period of about three weeks. I was hesitant to introduce the labs into the 29g with the saulosi, but really didn't have a choice. I did buy enough cichlid stones to fill the tank first, but sometime in the beginning of October, I had all the fish in the 29 except the brichardi.

Yesterday morning, I decided to remove the labs from the main tank. They are all over the one inch mark now and close to the point where I can sell them. I would love to keep them, but refuse to get more tanks. I am still debating keeping the brichardi, so that's one thing I'd like an opinion on: Should I keep the Brichardi and leave him in the 10 gallon, or put him in the 29 with the saulosi? He was perfectly fine with the Labs, but he was smaller than them. He has grown to about 3.25 inches now.


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

The real purpose of this project is the P. Saulosi. My group of nine are the first I ever purchased from a non-LFS. The project is complete. I am happy to report that almost everything I set out to do with this tank is finished. Obviously, the task is never complete, because now I have to fix my ratios.

I have three males which have made the transformation: one dominant male and two sub-doms, all at different stages, with the dominant male being the only one to make the full transformation.

I have three fish with absolutely no signs of being male.

The other three I am just not sure about. All three have at least a slight amount of vertical barring. One has an egg spot. Two have very slight black tint on the dorsal. Once I have sold the labs, and possibly the Brichardi (dreading that as it is one of the first fish I ever bought), I was thinking about taking a couple of the known males out of the main tank to see if I could get a couple of the others to color up so that I could replace them with females. I will update the thread with more on this soon.

Check out this video of my Saulosi:


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Nice tank. I do not like artificial decor, but the cichlid stones and your arrangement looks good.

Your male seems to be a real prick, lol! I had 3 males in a 180 gallon. Actually had to remove the 2nd in command fish because he was stressing out the smallest male. I couldn't believe it in a 6' tank. My dominant male is super laid back and always colored up, even with larger and more aggressive mbuna.

I have 2 fish that are full yellow with a slight black coloring to the dorsal. Thought they may be male, but then one of them spawned with my dominant male. Hopefully it's not a trait of poor breeding. Have not asked that question on here though, so looking forward to anyone commenting on this.

I think the 10 gallon is too small for the Brichardi. Not sure about adding him to the mbuna. I wouldn't do it.

What was the artist of the video song?


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> I have 2 fish that are full yellow with a slight black coloring to the dorsal. Thought they may be male, but then one of them spawned with my dominant male. Hopefully it's not a trait of poor breeding. Have not asked that question on here though, so looking forward to anyone commenting on this.
> 
> I think the 10 gallon is too small for the Brichardi. Not sure about adding him to the mbuna. I wouldn't do it.
> 
> What was the artist of the video song?


Thanks! It appears to me to be 4:5/m:f. The dominant male is definitely the most wild. He was actually the second to color up and is smaller than the other males. I'm going to remove him from the group. As for poor breeding, I know I got these from a fairly reliable source. However, we all know unless it's confirmed WC or F1, you never know. From what I understand, many males will not make the transformation if there is too much competition. After I removed a couple of the males, I will know more. I'm thinking of removing all but one, but these guys are at sexual maturity and not trying to kill one another, so I don't want to lose the extra color variety. [edit: This sounded like I was intending to keep it 4:5. Incorrect. I will be at a minimum making the ratio 2:5.]

I think you're right as to the Brichardi. It's just hard to let go. It's been very abnormally docile and a good fish for a long time. I suppose I'll sell it with the labs. :/

The song is "It's not my fault" by Discovery (members of this group formed Vampire Weekend, among other groups, I believe). The entire album is amazing.


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## Zoolander (Jan 20, 2013)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> I have 2 fish that are full yellow with a slight black coloring to the dorsal. Thought they may be male, but then one of them spawned with my dominant male. Hopefully it's not a trait of poor breeding. Have not asked that question on here though, so looking forward to anyone commenting on this.


One thing I've read about is that females will actually adapt to tank conditions (i.e. overly aggressive males; bad ratios) by developing slight barring/black on dorsal. I've also read where females will develop slight male coloration while holding.

I can actually confirm the information about holding. I just noticed today that one of the unknown fish I suspected of being male is actually a female: she's holding!

So, as far as I can tell, my ratio is at 3:6. I want to hold off on changing things up, but if I really have six females, I'm going to think about getting rid of two males.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Thanks for the info!


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## pancakeloach (Feb 4, 2008)

Ditto on the coloration - I have found that a bit of black on the front of the dorsal and faint barring is not enough to ID male from female. I'm not really willing to make the call until the black bar covers the entire dorsal fin at the very least. I've had holding females take on a bit of black barring, too.

Oddly enough, stressed saulosi seem to get "splotchy" barring - it's quite different than their usual defined bars. Watch out for that, I had a previously harmonious pair of perfectly colored males in my 75 suddenly abandon their respective territories and one mortally wounded the other overnight. The victim never tried to hide in a top corner, and I erroneously thought that since he was "colored down" and back in the general area of his previous territory that the fight was over and he'd lost his bid for alpha male, and that would be the end of it. Catching the bully was a pain, too, I had to rip apart my rockwork to get at him, but I have another male coloring up nicely so Mr. Psycho can stay in his isolation box until I decide his fate.


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