# Tank was a gift, the fish are not doing well - Need Advice



## anjjewell (Aug 1, 2010)

I was given a 55 gal freshwater tank (with fish) when my roommate moved out and the fish don't seem to be doing well...I need some help.

So, first things first, I tested the water. Here are those results:

PH 6.8
Nitrate 0
Ammonia 0
Nitrate 0
Temp 78 degrees

There are currently 2 pictus catfish, 2 (cichlids - one is a convict and I am not sure on the other) and a brown and yellow spotted plecostomus.

Here are the fish symptoms: the cichlids won't move off the bottom of the tank, they are both pale and lethargic...they won't eat. If they hear a loud sound they panic and ram into the tank glass only to land at the bottom and stay there. The pictus are happy and eating just fine. The pleco was fine until this morning...now, he has gone from a nice dark brown with bright yellow spots to looking like he has big dull spots on his body - they are almost gray in color.

After doing some reading, it seems as though the PH is too low for the cichlids and just fine for the rest of the fish. If I read everything correctly, the pleco and cichlids can be at 7.5 PH? comfortably, but the pictus should be around 6.8. So, do I raise it and hope the pictus are ok? Do you think this is my only problem or do I need to treat multiple things?

I would really appreciate any help.

Thanks!


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## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

The first thing I'd do is a 50% water change. Something is clearly bothering them and that may help (I've never seen it NOT help except in cases where it was just plain fear/shock and the water change was just too much for them). Also, I'd highly suspect your water parameters are not what you're posting. There is almost no way that your Nitrates can be zero with fish in the tank, unless it's not cycled at all, in which case you'll soon be showing high ammonia readings. Your test kit may be old and expired, contaminated, or something else may be affecting it (such as you not shaking the bottles hard and long enough).

First, take a sample of water, seal it so it won't spill, and make sure you can recognize it in some fashion. Next, do the water change (don't forget to treat the tap water to remove chlorine/chloramine). Make sure the water is pretty much the same temp as the tank water before adding it as well. Let it settle a bit and get mixed up fairly well, then take another sample. Take both samples down to your local fish store and ask them to test the water for you. Don't let them sell you chemicals at this point.

Once you have the results of the water tests (before and after if you can, after is they'll only test one). Please let us know what they are. It would also be helpful if you can post some pictures of the fish. I wouldn't worry too much about the pH at this point as a reading of 6.8 can be tolerated by most fish just fine if it's stable.

Also, one other thing: you say you recently were given the tank. Does that mean you just moved the tank from one location to another? If so, how long ago? If it was recent, please tell us how the move was accomplished as that might be part of this as well.


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## anjjewell (Aug 1, 2010)

Ok. I will do the water change right away. I looked at the test kit and can't find an expiration date. My roommate left this with me as well...based on her first set of results, it was first used December 2008...could it be expired in under 2 years? She tested on a regular basis and historically speaking she has the nitrates marked for 0 all months except one...in this case, it reads 5.0. We didn't move the tank, she moved out and left it with me as she couldn't take it with...so I don' think that is the problem. I hope the test results aren't contaminated...what would cause that? I shook all of the bottles and followed the direction cards to the letter since I haven't done this before.

I will repost when the store tests the water...I wish I could get pictures for you...they are hiding behind the rocks and I can barely see them now. If they come to the front I will post them.

Oh, and one more change...the gray spots on the pleco are gone, he looks just fine today.


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## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

I'm thinking you (or she) were looking at the nitrItes, not the nitrAtes. In a normal, healthy aqaurium, a test kit will read 0 for all nitrItes. This is because they are converted by bacteria into nitrAtes.

Basically, the way it works is this:

Fish/food waste begins to be broken down by bacteria. As it is broken down, the bacteria emit ammonia as waste. Ammonia is highly toxic to fish. This is the point where people's fish die if they're new to the hobby and don't have someone to give them advice. As time goes on, a second type of bacteria will build up in the tank. This bacteria consumes the ammonia and emits nitrItes. NitrItes are also highly toxic to fish. Eventually, a third type of bacteria will build to levels high enough to handle converting the nitrItes into nitrAtes. NitrAtes are not nearly as toxic to fish, although they're still not good for them.

So, in a healthy aquarium, you should see 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and between 5-30 ppm nitrates (some people here say under 20 and that's even better). It is pretty much impossible to have a 0 nitrate reading as you almost without fail have nitrates in your water before you even add it to the fish tank and the tank is constantly making more.


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## anjjewell (Aug 1, 2010)

Ok. Water change is done. I took the water into the fish store and had it tested. Everything read fine except for the Nitrates. They read about 60 ppm (after the water change). I asked about the API test kit and the lady working there said that while it is rare, she has heard of those kits being faulty coming from the manufacturer...so I was looking at the wrong results. (

So...I have a new test kit to replace the other. Next step, fixing the nitrates, you have already helped so much, can you take a moment to help me with lowering this number as well? Do you think my fish are going to make it through this?


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## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

Assuming that the nitrates are the only problem, your fish will be just fine. Lowering nitrates comes with simple water changes and watching your feeding amounts. Fish have this funny habit of always looking hungry. They're not. Adult fish really don't need much food at all. Feed them once per day just enough that they can eat it all in about 2 minutes. Once you know how much they're eating, you can split it up into 2 or 3 feedings if you like, or leave it once a day. Some people even feed once every other day.

Other than that, monitor your nitrates and do a 25% water change any time you see a reading at 30-40 ppm or higher. Once you know how dirty your fish are (ie, how fast they raise your nitrate levels), you can adjust to a regular schedule. Most of the time, a good rule of thumb would be about 30% of the water once a week. Alternate vacuuming out the gravel with changing filters so you're not doing both the same day. You don't want to remove too much of your bio-bacteria at one time. Don't forget to treat the water with something that removes chlorine/chloramine (I'm not sure what your area's water contains).

Now, are your fish acting any different at this point? You mention that the pictus cats are back to normal coloration. Are the cichlids eating yet? Are they swimming around more? If they're not, can you get any good pictures of them, or note anything that looks wrong to you? Spots, filmy stuff, sores, strange swimming behavior, etc.?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If nitrate is 60ppm and you change 50% of the water, you will end up with 30ppm nitrates. Assuming your tap water does not have any nitrates.

If nitrates is the only problem, your fish will be fine. However, nitrates does not usually cause fish staying on the bottom of the tank, pale, lethargic and not eating.

Are their bodies swollen or emaciated? Any white thready feces?


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## anjjewell (Aug 1, 2010)

The convict looks the same as usual, but lethargic. No spots or noticeable issues. The other is not so good. He went from being a medium gray/blue color to a pale gray/white. He has one big white spot on his left side that I just saw today. His fins look ok, but he is not moving well and neither will eat.

The pictus and pleco are just fine at this point.


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## anjjewell (Aug 1, 2010)

Oh, and I should mention that both look emaciated...but I am sure that is due to the lack of food at this point. When I noticed them acting different, they weren't emaciated yet, nor were they bloated and they still had full color.


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## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

Based on what you're saying, it could be a number of things. The large white spot could be our best clue at this point. Can you give a better description of it? Maybe get a picture?

Saprolegnia or Columnaris sound the most likely, but I'd sure like to see what we're talking about before having you buy medicines that may help or may create a bigger problem. I'd also worry about the two cats when treating as they are pretty easy to damage with treatments.

Edit: I'm also going to continue to monitor this thread but ask for the help of more knowledgable people as I have very little experience treating actual disorders with medication. I'm good at research, but short on experience at this point.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Excellent advice so far... I like keeping my nitrates under 20 ppm. The API test tube kits can be easy to misuse- especially for nitrate. Try your test kit again, reading the instructions carefully. Use a timer and violently shake the living snot out of the test tube when it says to. Failure to sufficiently shake the mix will give you low results.

As far as the patches- can you get a picture? Even from your cell phone would help...

Keep the lights off, keep up with the water changes, and feed lightly. With nitrates at 60 ppm, I'm not sure lack of food is the problem. Did your roommate neglect the tank for awhile before moving? How long have you had them, and what have you been feeding?

What do you have for filters? I'd like to know a bit more about the set-up before we suggest any meds.


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## RDTigger (Jul 4, 2009)

triscuit said:


> Excellent advice so far... I like keeping my nitrates under 20 ppm. The API test tube kits can be easy to misuse- especially for nitrate. Try your test kit again, reading the instructions carefully. Use a timer and violently shake the living snot out of the test tube when it says to. Failure to sufficiently shake the mix will give you low results.
> 
> As far as the patches- can you get a picture? Even from your cell phone would help...
> 
> ...


Excellent advice and questions... A 25% WC each day would help water quality and overall health. Some carbon filtration for a few days could pull out some toxins, but won't solve the nitrate issues. Without some visual of the setup and filtration it's hard to advise much more.


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## anjjewell (Aug 1, 2010)

Ok. I am desperately trying to take pics of the fish. They won't come close to the glass. I have only had the tank for a month, as for my roommate, I guess I don't know if she neglected it...there is some algae but it doesn't seem out of control. The tank has an under-gravel filter along with a Rena canister filter that sits under the tank.

The fish have cichlid gold for food and shrimp pellets for the pictus. The pleco likes cucumbers and these little green algae wafers for treats.

I will do another water change and check on the filter...I haven't done anything with the rena system since she left a month ago. I will research the fish diseases mentioned and see if any of the pics seem to match.


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## RDTigger (Jul 4, 2009)

Any pics will be fine. Most want to get an idea of the overall picture, pics are worth a 1000 words.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Yep- photographing fish is hard- but sometimes even blurry pics can help.

Are you using a tap water conditioner? Any other additives when you do water changes?


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## anjjewell (Aug 1, 2010)

Ok. Here are the pics. I am very sorry for the quality...my cell in combination with shooting through the glass didn't do this justice.

As for the water, I have no idea what my roommate did, but when I changed the water I used a water conditioner.

Let me know what you think.


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## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

I'm still going to say that it looks like Saprolegnia or Columnaris to me - both basically fungal infections. It also fits the water conditions we were seeing. Given the nitrates at about 120 ppm before your water changes began, it's pretty easy to see this starting out as a small wound from the convict and becoming infected by the fungus.

If it is either of the above, I'd recommend removing the fish to a quarantine tank. Fungus isn't one of the things you'd have to treat the whole tank for, and keeping the pictus cats away from the medicine is a good thing when possible. Once your fish is quarantined, treat with Furan 2 following the instructions on the label.

However, once again, I AM NOT THE EXPERIENCED EXPERT on treatment that many other users here are. Please wait to see what others say before subjecting your fish to my possibly incorrect diagnosis and treatment recommendations.


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## anjjewell (Aug 1, 2010)

I really appreciate your help....I am a bit stressed about these guys and will wait to see what the others have to say. In regards to the Saprolegnia or Columnaris...I did look up some pics online and they don't seem to look like this white spot, but there may be some variations to how it looks on each fish. This almost looks like he rubbed that white spot or that the scales turned white in that little area. Or even like a burn...if that makes any sense.


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## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

Well then, hopefully one of them will be able to help. I think all of us here have had sick fish at one time or another. The wait and not knowing is the worst. :-?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The idea it could be an injury (a scrape or a burn) does not explain the lethargy...injured fish usually have no change in behavior or eating. I have no experience with illnesses (other than bloat  ) so I hope someone else will chime in with suggestions.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Thank you for the pictures- hopefully we can get things back to healthy for your fish soon.

My best suggestion is to starting using Melafix- it covers several diseases and is safe for all your fish. See if your LFS has it. If not, then look for maracyn (not maracyn II). I do suggest treating the whole tank, even though I know it can get expensive. To start treatment right away, call around to see what's available locally.


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## anjjewell (Aug 1, 2010)

Ok. I will try the Melafix and will post back with any updates. Thank you!


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## anjjewell (Aug 1, 2010)

Ok. I ran the Melafix through a full week and then did another partial water change on day 8. All fish are still alive, but I am not seeing changes. They must be eating a little from the bottom, but neither are going after food and neither will swim. They just lay on the bottom. Nitrates are at 40....everything else looks good. Any additional suggestions or should I just keep up with water changes and close monitoring?


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## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

Sorry they're not doing better yet. 

I'm not sure what else it could be. If it were one of the fungal things I thought it might be, you'd definitely know by now as it would be doing some serious damage to both of them. I'm thinking the next questions one of the experts will want answered will be a re-posting of your current water parameters again and see if you can get some better pictures of them. A video would be even better.

Is there any behavior that they're showing that doesn't seem right to you? I know you're fairly new to all of this, but are they breathing really fast? Are they rubbing up against things a lot? Are they staying stable, or are they listing to one side? Are they having to fight to stay on the bottom like they're too buoyant? Are there any new sores or damage to their fins?  Any changes in coloring?

Also, I can't remember...you have two pictus cats in the tank with them, but are there any other fish as well? Do you think they might just be scared to come out since there aren't any dither fish in with them?


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

Columnaris is a bacteria, not a fungus, and melafix will not treat it, but I'm not sure if this is what your fish have. Actually columnaris will usually kill fish within 2-5 days untreated - so it might not be columnaris. Addition of table-salt (NaCl) will help prevent bacteria as well as a number of parasites from adhering to the scales of fish. This would be a fairly safe way to treat your tank until you can confirm a diagnosis - although I don't know much about pictus catfish and if they tolerate salt. I believe addition of 1 Tablespoon per 5 gallons is commonly used - but add it gradually...maybe over the course of a few hours.

If that spot that you see on your fish starts getting bigger quickly (overnight), or it looks like their fins/tails are becoming ragged or deteriorating, then it probably is columnaris and you'll need to get some antibiotics fast. Medication with Kanamycin or Tetracycline in it will work. Many people have a lot of success combining Maracyn I and Maracyn II - as it takes care of columnaris with antibiotics as well as secondary opportunistic infections that often piggy-back on sick fish.

Definitely recommend doing another 50% water exchange to bring those Nitrates below 25ppm.
Good luck!


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## anjjewell (Aug 1, 2010)

Update: Well, he didn't make it. I found him dead in the tank this afternoon. Pictus cats and pleco are all ok. The convict still looks good, but he won't come out of his rock. I will keep up with the water changes and monitor the nitrates, etc. Thanks everyone for your help - it was a good try.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Sorry for your loss.


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## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

Sorry man....


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