# Please Help! I can't figure out what's wrong with my Lab



## pmac (Dec 1, 2008)

Hi, I've replied in part to some other similar comments, but now I've noticed some more symptoms of an unknown problem that my Yellow Lab has..

I'm not sure the pH/Nitrate/etc. levels in my tank, but I'm going to try to get a test kit either today, or tomorrow. The temperature is 78*F, I have good filtration (Eheim 2028), and a couple air stones. My fish are in a 115G 4 foot tank, I do partial water changes every 2-3 weeks. and here is my stocking list (they're all around 4-4.5 inches with the exception of a few that i've marked otherwise):

1 Cyphotilapia Frontosa (2-2.5")
1 Aulonocara SP
1 Aulonocara OB
1 Labeotropheus Trewavasae
2 Labidochromis Caeruleus (one of them is a 2" juv)
1 Albino Maylandia Greshakei (about 3")
2 Pseudotropheus Elongatus (one is about 3")
2 Pseudotropheus Estherae Blue
3 Pseudotropheus Estherae Red
1 Pseudotropheus Flavus
2 Melanochromis Cyaneorhabdos (about 3.5")
2 Pterophyllum Hybrid
1 Synodontis Ocellifer
1 Liposarcus Pardalis
1 Trichogaster Leerii
1 Gold Claw Fiddler Crab

I know it's a pretty random mix, also it's an all male tank (or so I've been led to believe by the breeder I've gotten most of my fish from).

The problem is with my adult Yellow lab, I've had him for at least 4 years. A little while ago, I started noticing black "smudges" on his head, some people on here said it may be bearding. since then, the smudges are also on his sides, although not as prominently as on his head. He also seems somewhat pale sometimes, and appears to be clamping his fins. His stomach doesn't appear to be sunken, but I very rarely (if ever) see him eat (But it has been like this as long as I can remember, so I'm assuming he is eating algae,etc. from the substrate or picking up scraps.)

What really worries me is in the past couple days his behavior changed. Now he spends a lot of time swimming in one spot. But it's not that that bothers me, it's the WAY he's swimming. instead of just holding himself there with his fins like the other fish do, he swims by moving his entire body back and forth (kind of hard to describe without a video), but it's kind of a wiggling motion.

I'm guessing it has something to do with the clamped fins, but I don't know why he is doing it.. stress? parasite? water conditions?

All my other fish seem healthy and active, the water is clear, although I'm due for a regular water change shortly. Also, about 3 days ago I noticed that one of my Elongatus' had what appeared to be a bad case of Ich, it seemed to just show up all of a sudden, and then completely go away the next day. Other than the white spots, he didn't have any other symptoms (No flashing/problems breathing/listlessness/loss of apetite). Could this have possibly been something other than ich? Or have something to do with the behavior of my Yellow Lab?

I'm kind of worried about doing an Ich treatment due to the fact I have a synodontis and a fiddler crab in there, I've read that using either the meds/salt treatment could kill them. Anyone have any knowledge of this? Would it be okay to just remove the syno and crab until I'm done with the medication treatment if needed?

Sorry for the very lengthy post, but I wanted to include as much detail as I could, to help try and figure out what my problem might be. I know labs are quite docile, so I'm sure there is a very good chance it is stress related. But I haven't noticed any aggression in my tank, other than the Dinghani kind of being the "boss" of the tank.

Any and all info would be very much appreciated, if this is some sort of parasite or something, I want to diagnose and treat it before anyone else gets infected.

Thanks in advance,

Patrick


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Hi, Patrick!

Since I've already told you what I think of your stock list, I'll just say that your Yellow lab sounds very stressed. Everything you are describing is indicative of stress. With the stock list that you have, I'm not surprised.

Most of these fish have or are reaching sexual maturity. Unless the breeder vented them (and they must be close to sexual maturity in order for venting to be accurate) you may not have an all male tank. You also don't need 2 males of any one species - this will also contribute to the stress level in the tank.

When I initially saw your stock list, I knew it would be problematic. Properly stocking a cichlid tank is over half the battle. (Good diet and good tank maintenance are the rest.) An improperly stocked tank (such as this one) is a stressed tank. A high stress tank turns into a tank riddled with health issues. It's a vicious circle.

Every "symptom" you've listed for your Yellow lab indicates stress. That's not to say he isn't sick...He may be. But in this tank with these tank mates, you're going to have to come up with some symptoms that are more indicative of illness than stress in order for us to know which way to turn.

Your tank maintenance schedule could use some tweaking, too. "Partial" water change every 2-3 weeks isn't enough, especially since you don't monitor the water parameters.

And, finally, as you guessed, ich doesn't come and go in a 24 hour period. But, without other symptoms, we have no way of knowing what it was.

Basically, I'd work on the stock list, and I'd step up the water changes.

As things are right now, we can't see the forest for the trees.

I'm sorry...I know that isn't what you want to hear, but I suspect this to be the first of many problems you will encounter with that stock list, and any problems that you have in the tank are going to be very difficult to solve as long as the stock list is like this.


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## pmac (Dec 1, 2008)

Thanks for the info, I'm sure it probably is stress that's bothering my lab, so I'll have to figure out what to do about that I guess... I wouldn't mind figuring out what the problem is with my Elongatus. I've noticed him "twitching" or shaking his whole body sometimes, I've read that this could be signs of dominance or trying to attract females, so I'm assuming this isn't much of a problem. And I know I said I didn't see him flashing, but when I got home today he was fine for a while, and then he started to rub his sides on the tank decorations for a while, not sure if it's a problem or not. I still can't see any more white spots on him, but it's pretty hard to tell when he's moving around so much.

EDIT: Upon closer inspection of my tank, I've found that somehow the white spots have gone
from my elongatus to my synodontis, now it's covered in what I'm guessing is Ich. What
would be the best treatment for Ich on this species? I've read that most/all Ich treatments
can be fatal on scaless fish


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## pmac (Dec 1, 2008)

Ok, so after reading the Ich Treatment article on this site, I've decided to go with the Heat/Salt treatment. I'm going to slowly raise the temperature of my tank to 86*F and add salt.

I wanted to be sure I'm adding the proper amount of salt, so I tried to do some math before adding any...

115 Gallon Tank
-------------------

Mfg. Rec. Dosage -> 1 Tablespoon per 5 Gallons
Decided Dosage -> 2 Tablespoons per 5 Gallons

115G divided by 5G per Tblspn = 23 [email protected] Rec. Dosage

I want to double that, so I decided on 46 Tablespoons (2.875 Cups)

Since this seems like an awful lot of salt, and considering the fact I've got a catfish in there
I've decided to cut the dosage down to just over 2 cups of salt, which I'm going to put in the tank around 1/2 a cup at a time, over 2 days.

** 2 Cups = 1.39 Tablespoons per 5 gallons

Does this seem like a decent amount of salt to treat Ich with in combination with a raised temperature of 86*F?

** I'm adding a little over 1/2 Cup at a time, so the measuments aren't exactly 2 cups of salt.

I'm going to do this treatment, and keep the raised temp. for 10 days, unless I see the symptoms completely dissappear before that, then I'll continue for 3 or 4 more days as recommended. Followed by a few 40% or so water changes and then I'll test the levels in the tank.

Let me know if this seems like a good idea or not, I've only just added approx. 1/2 a cup of salt tonight, and raised my temperature to 80, in a little while, I'll turn it up to 83, and probably put it up to 86 in the morning since it will take a while for the water temperature to raise anyway.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

You should be okay going that route.

I still find it very strange that this is ich, especially with the elongatus only showing signs of it for one day and then it disappearing.

Watch closely as the temp increases...Should you see any cottony fuzzy growths on the fish or rapid fin deterioration, post back. If it's misdiagnosed, raising the temperature can cause some diseases to spread very quickly.


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## pmac (Dec 1, 2008)

Thanks for the update, I'll definitely let you know. Do you think the amount of salt I'm adding should be sufficient? Also, I'm not sure if you noticed in my other post, but my Synodontis is now covered in white spots. But so far it is the only fish that I can see is affected.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

If you don't see any change by increasing the temp and adding this amount of salt within a few days, you may want to increase the amount. It's always tricky when sensitive fish are involved.

Like I said, I'm not in the least bit convinced it's ich, so watch carefully for signs of something else.


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## pmac (Dec 1, 2008)

Ok, so I've got a couple pictures now, It looks like there still are a few spots on my elongatus, but my synodontis is covered. One of my other fish also seems to be showing signs of Ich now, but I couldn't get a good picture of it. I got a picture of my Lab, but it's pretty blurry. You can kind of see how it's pale and has black smudges on it's head, but it's hard to tell from the terrible picture. Also, he's got a cut on his lip now, so he must be fighting when I'm not around...


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## pmac (Dec 1, 2008)

I've been looking closely at the fish in my tank, and I've noticed now there are at least 4 fish affected by the Ich, or whatever parasite I have; 1 Elongatus, 1 SB Peacock, 1 Synodontis and 1 Gourami. There may be others, but this is what I've observed so far. Maybe the reason I only saw them on my Elongatus before was because I caught it at the end of that cycle, and now it's multiplied onto my other fish since the raised temperature would speed up it's life cycle.

I'm also having a hard time getting my tank up to 86*F, I set the heater at 86 last night, and the water temp at the opposite end of my tank only went up to 82 by 4:00pm today, so I put the heater at 90 a little while ago, I'm assuming the heater isn't quite big enough for my tank, or the thermostat is damaged (although it's a brand new heater).

I'll let you know if any strange symptons appear, but now that I'm seeing it on more than one fish, I'm almost sure this is Ich, let me know what you think from the pictures, all the infected fish have the same marks on them (although the syno by far has it the worst)


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I think it's ich with the syno...But I also think you've got some severely stressed fish.

Are their fins always clamped like that?

If not and they are stressed from the heat, you may need to switch treatment methods. I prefer using something with malachite green and formalin in it. I just don't see any indication of ich on the cichlids, they just look stressed. But, I'm sure you can tell better in person...

You're going to need to treat for quite some time, at least 3-4 days after seeing the very last spot fall off, so if they are already this stressed by the heat (and the ich) you might have to change your methods. (I know that these meds that I'm referring to aren't usually recommended for scaleless fish, but I've used it with synodontis without any problems.) It would probably give them relief from the ich quicker than the salt and heat.

Squeeze in all the water changes that you can. That helps to remove the ich from the tank in varying stages of the life cycle. Vacuum the substrate well with each water change.


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## pmac (Dec 1, 2008)

Hi, it's just the 2 fish in the pictures with the clamped fins. The Elongatus never clamped it's fins like that until shortly after I noticed the Ich, although they aren't always like that. I don't think it liked the flash on my camera, because he lost his stripes and clamped his fins after a few attemps at getting a picture. When I first asked about the Ich, the elongatus had almost as many white spots on it as the Syno does in that picture, but now there are just a few on his pectoral fins and a couple near the top of his head.

Also, the other 2 fish I mentioned that may have Ich, have them mostly on their back near the dorsal fin, and some on their pectoral fins, and it seems like one of my angelfish may be getting it as well. I'm going to continue the salt treatment for another 2-3 days and if I don't notice anything with that I'm gonna do a 40% or so water change, lower the temperature back to 76 and try some medication.

I just did a pH test and an NO3 test, my pH is somewhere between 7.8-8.0 and my Nitrates seem quite low at only around 7ppm. I don't have a Nitrite or Ammonia test kit yet, this is all the store had left, but they're getting more on friday.

Thanks for all the info along the way, hopefully I can get this problem sorted out without losing any fish!


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## pmac (Dec 1, 2008)

Just wondering, is it safe to use Melafix while using an Ich medication? one of my fish has scratches on it from flashing.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Yes, it should be okay. I've never had any problems using Melafix with other meds.


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## pmac (Dec 1, 2008)

Thanks for all the help cichlidaholic. I've decided to switch from the salt/heat treatment to a proper ich medication, the increased heat seemed to be bothering my fish too much. (A couple of them were quite "twitchy" and made a lot of strange jerky movements. Plus, their colours weren't as prominent, and just didn't look that happy. I lowered the temperature overnight and it's almost back to normal, my fish are looking better already. (Other than the ones with white spots on them of course). Is there a certain type of medication that you would recommend? I know you can get formalin or malachite green on it's own, but I've also seen commercial Ich remedies, not sure if these work or not.. I used a formalin medication a few years ago, but it stained a lot of my tank decorations blue.

What would you suggest?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I like Quick Cure. They pulled it off the shelves here in Ontario for awhile, but a few months ago I stumbled upon some and picked up quite the stash for future use, so I think it might be available again. It's pretty economical, 1 drop per gallon...

It will stain the silicone a bit, but it will fade over time, and IMO, the meds that have formalin and malachite green in them work better than the ones that don't. And, they seem to give immediate relief to the fish, which makes me feel better. :wink:

The reason your fish seem to worsen when you use salt and heat is because that treatment speeds up the life cycle of the ich, making things worse before they get better. Alot of people swear by that treatment, but the only time I've ever used it I misdiagnosed my fish with ich, and when I raised the temp it caused the problem to exacerbate, and I lost alot of fish to Columnaris. Of course, that was my fault for misdiagnosing it in the first place. :roll:


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## pmac (Dec 1, 2008)

Thanks again for the info, I'm going to the pet store today to see what kinds of meds they have there, i was there yesterday and saw some sort of Ich medication in a squeeze tube, but wasn't sure if something so small would actually work. I guess I'll give it a try afterall. Do you recommend raising the temperature while medicating them? or is it fine to use the meds at 76? (right now it's still at 80 but slowly on it's way down to 76)


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I never raise the temp when using meds unless the meds tell me to do so.

The squeeze tube sounds like Quick Cure, so hopefully they will have it. I got so much of it that I haven't looked around for it in awhile. (And of course, you never have ich when you're prepared...)


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## pmac (Dec 1, 2008)

Is it safe to use when adding new fish that may or may not have Ich? (ie. using in a quarantine tank before putting the new fish into your show tank). Or do you use it periodically as an Ich preventative?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I've used it on new fish while in QT if I saw anything suspect in the tank they came out of, but generally, I'm content with just quarantining them for a couple of weeks. (2 weeks for tank raised, 1 month for wild fish)

I do use preventatives on my wild fish while in QT. I learned my lesson the hard way. I either feed them medicated antiparasitic foods, or treat with Jungle Parasite Clear.

No need to use as a preventative, IMO, unless you have some reason to suspect you might have problems. Ich doesn't occur often in established tanks. In fact, in all my years of fish keeping (and there have been MANY years) I've only had ich in my tanks twice.


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## pmac (Dec 1, 2008)

Hi, I'm finally glad to report that all my fish seem to be healthy and happy again. I used a combination of salt, Ich medication and melafix, and now I see no signs of white spots, scars, torn or clamped fins. My lab is finally coming to the top for food again, and the black smudges on him are starting to go away and every once and a while he's nice and bright yellow again. Thanks for all the help with suggestions on what to do with them!

I've started working on my new 3d background, I haven't taken any pictures of the progress yet, I've been too busy with work and the holidays, but it's looking really nice so far. I'll post some pictures in the thread I started in the DIY section as soon as I get some time.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

That's good news! Thanks for posting back with the update!


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