# Outdoor pond on the Tropic of Cancer viable with cichlids?



## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

I was thinking about a big outdoor glass tank up on my terrace, but now my thoughts have turned to a pond. Our house in the city is on half an acre, but outside the city we have some farm land that's 11 acres. There's already a big (murky) pond there, maybe 60" diameter and 10-15' deep. Natural spring water feeds it year-round. Assuming this water is similar to my city water, it's 7.5ph. I can test it next time I go.

My question is whether cichlids (Africans preferred, but I'd consider NW if they can handle more variation in temps) could survive the temp fluxuations, or I'd need to stick with goldfish/koi.

I live around 30miles south of the Tropic of Cancer in Ranchi (as my name suggests). The weather is not too different than Orlando's:

*Ranchi's weather* vs *Orlando's weather* 
















So our summer comes earlier and burns hotter, and while the high temp in winter is virtually the same, nights are colder here in the North Indian plains. We get more rain, but only in those 4 months of monsoon, otherwise it's actually very dry here.

I'd need power obviously for the filtration/pump, so it might be possible to do some water heating depending on the size of the pond. We'll have a caretaker for the farm who can manually run a heater for a few hours in the morning or over night possibly.... we'd have to do some tests.

I'm imaging it to go down 2-3 feet and have the brim extend around 1' above ground level (to keep unwanted stuff out).

What's the bottom line? Cichlids are too fussy, temp-wise to consider this at my latitude? I'd LOVE to have a fronts pond... but don't anticipate having a tank to put them into during the winter 2 months of cold.

30sec of wikipedia searching suggests that Lake Mawali has some fluxuation: 'Given its tropical latitude, the water of this lake is generally warm, having a surface temperature that ranges from 24 to 29 degrees Celsius (75 to 84 degrees Fahrenheit), with a deep water temperature of about 22 Ã‚Â°C (72 Ã‚Â°F), year round.'


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## gilberbt (Aug 1, 2009)

I would check the temps in your big pond now in the morning on a really cold day and see what those are. That would at least give you a starting point. I have had a heater go out in my African setup when I was out of town for a few days (luckily it stuck off and not on) and the tank was down to about 64Ã‚Â° F when I got back with no noticeable effect on the fish. I would think if you pond does not get below the mid 60's in the winter and does not go above the upper 80's in the summer it may work. I would probably be just as concerned on the very hot days of the summer just as much as the very cold days in the winter.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

ranchialex said:


> Natural spring water feeds it year-round. '


if the pond is not a dead end, then do NOT add cichlids... invasive species can destroy the environment. if wild birds visit, don't add cichlids... heck, just don't do it. The only outdoor ponds that you should have cichlids in are small man made ones where any chance of overflow can only result in the death of the inhabitants should they join it.


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## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

Great idea to check our existing pond. I can check it both winter (right now) and Summer (May) to get a better idea what I'm up for. I wasn't, however, suggesting that I stock that existing pond with cichlids. It's got a mud bottom and is super murky. I don't think any amount of filtration would clear that water up.

Perhaps in this case, deeper is better, so the lower temps are more stabilized. We don't have large-enough wild birds, btw. I suppose the big ones are hunted and eaten? 1.2 billion people can eat.


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## brinkles (Jan 30, 2011)

A breeder I've visited in central florida has them in concrete tubs in a greenhouse, but still has to heat the greenhouse during a cold snap. I would guess that being in the ground would help. My 75 in my garage won't get above the low 70s with a single 200W heater if it gets down to the 40s in my garage.

The outdoor ponds for raising tropical fish in Florida are mostly in south Florida, but I bet if you used a modest heater on a small pond and covered it, you wouldn't freeze any fish.


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## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

Helpful input.

We get these 'immersion rods' here which are basically big (forearm length) water heaters meant for heating 10gal buckets. Most people in India take a bath from a bucket with a mug, not a shower. If you leave one of these rods in a bucket for 20min, the water will get too hot to touch. I'm thinking one or 2 of those in a 1,000 pond with decent circulation would take the edge off.

In another forum, I read about a mixed koi/African cichlid pond where the owner lost 2 cichlids because of a cold snap that got into the 30s. It's basically never in the 30s here, maybe 1 night a year it'll touch 38-39f, so maybe the most basic heating would get it done. Interesting to think about, for sure.

Does anyone know whether african of NW cichlids are more temp-adaptable?


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

NW tend to bemore cold tolerant. Florida has many lakes and canals with NW invaders. You dont need to heat the entire pond if you make one. Put the heater near a large rock in the pond. It will act as a heat sink and allow the fish to congregate around it for warmth if there is ever a bad cold snap.


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## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

Great advice. Both the single heater and NW cichlids. Oscars are readily available here (the most popular cichlid, despite no one having suitable tanks for them) so that might be the way to go. I need to step up my education on NW cichlids.


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## brinkles (Jan 30, 2011)

We get a freeze almost every year in Orlando. I've often thought of trying to pull off a cichlid pond, as my dad has a large koi pond (the koi are beautiful, but kind of boring).

The other thing that turns me off to a pond is my two enthusiastic, water loving labradors!

Number 6, I like the idea of a heater near a rock. Do you think turning the pump off would help keep the heat confined, or would that be detrimental?


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## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

Hmm it never freezes here. Hasn't in the 4 winters I've been here. I think that'd be apocalyptic for the crops/trees here. Interesting that Orlando shows milder winters, but yet it still freezes. Guess you get colder weather blowing from the north. We just have, you know, the Himilayas to the north (400km), but I think the wind blows from in from the coast (400km to the east).

I was also imagining about how filtration/water movement is the enemy of localized heating.

My labrador never gets taken out to the farmland after last time when he ate a cow pie and stank up my car and puked once we got home.


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

The water temp is what is important, and it seems like it might stay below 70 F in December and January, which would be bad for Malawi cichlids. I've read that Florida ponds do not want the temps to stay below 70 F because they start losing fish. A shallow pond would have to be heated, and would really heat up before the monsoon season. Out in the sun in spring it sounds like you could get 85-90 F water temps.

The muddy deep pond sounds like a really good Koi pond. Maybe throw in a few cichlids and see what happens.


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## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

The trouble with the muddy pond is I'd never see them!

My Indian in-laws actually have some 'rohu' (boring silver fish for eating) in the pond right now.

Here's a fairly recent pic.

The other problem with the big pond is local villagers have been known to come in with dynamite and harvest all the fish. We're hoping that problem has been solved now that we fenced in our 11 acres, but we'll see.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

brinkles said:


> Number 6, I like the idea of a heater near a rock. Do you think turning the pump off would help keep the heat confined, or would that be detrimental?


You keep pumps going. The heat sink creates the stationary heated area...



ranchialex said:


> The other problem with the big pond is local villagers have been known to come in with dynamite and harvest all the fish. We're hoping that problem has been solved now that we fenced in our 11 acres, but we'll see.


lol as you said... people can eat!!!


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## Fishy_Cichlid (Aug 4, 2011)

Nice idea but I dont see that as workable/feasible.

1. I dont see a point keeping african cichlids when it happens to be an open pond and the water is as a result, dirty. You dont get the advantage where you can watch your fish swim around in your presence .... breeding is something else, but most breeders use concrete tanks. No real advantage here.

2. I doubt you can control the water parameters to keep african cichlids. Also remember, that your pond water wont have the same parameters as your tap water. African cichlids require high Ph. Also remember that the place as you mention is basically farmland. Fertilisers used in nearby areas will leach into your pond water and will be disadvantageous to the african cichlids.

3. The fluctuations are too high, your minimum temperature is around 3-4deg C and a maximum open air temperature of around 42-44 deg C. The heaters you mention do not control the temperature, they are just used for heating. As for the summer heat, it will kill the fish - temperature & lack of oxygen. Then the heavy rainfall - your pond will flood and many of your fish will just swim over to other ponds/drains etc.

You could rather make a concrete tank at the entrace of your house (though I still that even this is unfeasible) or best, make a huge glass tank inside the house or verandah. House it on a concrete stand. Better you think of something workable and which you and your family can participate & enjoy.

Just my two cents.


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## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

Yes F_C I'm thinking through these factors. You've brought some new points to ponder, let me address them.

1. A filtered pond will be cleaner than a standard dirty pond. It'll have a liner and won't be mixed so readily with mud. The bigger deterant for me is just how often I personally visit the farmland. Right now it's 2-3 times a month, but we're developing it steadily and I can easily imagine it turning it into a weekend tradition. 20-25minutes drive each way and my kids (and dogs) love it out there. However I think my initial dream of a fronts pond doesn't make sense as they look great from the side, not so much from the top. Right now I'm leaning toward oscars and various NW cichlids, who are more tolerant.

2. Tangs are pickier than Mawalis, but again, I'm leaning toward NW cichlids (and/or koi). I'll take my test kit out to see how the water is (ammonia, nitra/ites and PH) but there aren't actually many chemical fertilizers/pesticides used. It's pretty rural/poor Jharkhand we're talking about, we use cow dung to fertilize our newly planted lime orchard, and we're the fancy rich city farmers 

3. I don't think ACs are nearly as intolerant for temperature variations as we suspect. Although I'm not dead-set on going African, in fact I like many NW cichilds and if they're more adaptive, then great. Naturally I don't want to freeze or cook or kill them, but if the pond is a bit deeper, I think the underlying temps might not change as dramatically. People do this in other parts of the world with very similar temperatures. In Florida, where most US wide-scale breeding takes place, they get a freeze every year and lose fish every couple years. It never freezes here. Now it does get pretty cold, and that's why we're thinking about the localized heating during the couple colder months. The monsoon isn't a big concern if we have decent drainage pipes (too small for fish, think of several 1" pipes near the rim of the pond. If some fry escape, I wish them luck. Summer is a worry. I need to think of possibly potted plants that can be moved in various season (shade for summer, removed for more sunshine in the winter).

As for bigger home tanks, my mind is constantly churning. I have a couple places in mind. If my interest/obsession with this hobby continues, I can envision an outdoor (but shaded) big glass tank from which NW cichlids eventually get exported to the pond from. Does that make sense? Stock with mid-sized NWs and when they get too big, out they go to the farm pond. That's my plan with our baby turtles, too. Keep 'em in the tank for a couple years until they outgrow it (or start to threaten the fish) and then let them spend their adult years in the pond. Our baby res turtle is everyone's favorite part of the tank. He swims very cutely (and then climbs out to his turtle dock in the corner to chill out, 60% in the water, though).

Our city house is actually on a large lot, I'd consider a smaller pond here, but we have a big lawn (with trampoline) in the front along with 3-4 flower beds and a rose garden, driveway on the side and small vegetable garden in the back. There is another place worth considering, but I'm leaning toward an outdoor tank (walls on 3 sides so no direct sun, will need winter heating) and a farm pond.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Fishy_Cichlid said:


> . African cichlids require high Ph. Also remember that the place as you mention is basically farmland. Fertilisers used in nearby areas will leach into your pond water and will be disadvantageous to the african cichlids.


No they dont require a high pH. And no, fertilizers do not harm them.



Fishy_Cichlid said:


> 3. The fluctuations are too high, your minimum temperature is around 3-4deg C and a maximum open air temperature of around 42-44 deg C. The heaters you mention do not control the temperature, they are just used for heating. As for the summer heat, it will kill the fish - temperature & lack of oxygen. Then the heavy rainfall - your pond will flood and many of your fish will just swim over to other ponds/drains etc..


 there are ways to help with the high temps and O2 needs. There are also ways to help keep the water cooler such as white plastic sheets covering part of the pond. I think that it is fair for Alex to keep researching....


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## Fishy_Cichlid (Aug 4, 2011)

People do have ponds in their homes for keeping fish - koi etc. But then most have a concrete of rocky base and hence the water doesent get dirty like in a pond. They use big filtration systems and pumps creating fountains - adding oxygen to the water. But a stagnant pond :-? :-? :-? Tap water is better since parameters can be controlled, I feel. Fish farms down south use huge concrete tanks and often use a greenhouse effect during the winter season to conserve heat.

Again, these are not fish from the sub-continent, different background, different requirements (some may match though). I have a neighbour who keeps Tilapias in a concrete tank behind his house ..... the fella never tests for water, its murky, dirty, full of Algae and fish swimmimg out pretty often during rainy season ....... but I dont recommend it.

However, if you start a African fish farm with the choiciest of African Cichlids successfully, then I might become your regular customer though :lol: :lol: :lol: *BTW I need a Kyoga Flameback, so that is your 1st order.*

Good Luck.


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## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

Hahaha I was going to order from Gibbs and Fronts from you!!


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