# New Tank Syndrome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



## Kaosone (Jun 29, 2009)

Ammonia breaks down to NitrIte, & then NitrIte breaks down into NitrAte. When you setup a new tank the Ammonia raises bacteria colonises & slowly the Bactria multiply & break the Ammonia down into NitrIte....

It takes longer for the NitrIfying bacteria to colonise so once the Ammonia has been broken down you have a long NitrIte spike & once that goes your left with then end result of NitrAte....

Do a water change to lower it & start stocking slowly as your filter will now have beneficial bacteria (or begin fishless cycle / dose with food, whatever).

MY question is where the f*** does the initial Ammonia spike come from in a new tank?

My girlfriends 1st tank has been running for 2 weeks now & she has a small amount Ammonia but is now showing 0.25 NitrIte at which point I stated "thatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s interesting the Ammonia is being broken down" (last week was just ammonia) & she pointed where does the initial ammonia come from & despite how much I think I understand the cycle (& also keep a marine tank) I didn't have a clue!

Any takers??????


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## jeaninel (Nov 1, 2009)

Is there fish in the tank? Fish waste is an ammonia source as well as decomposing food.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

In cycleing a tank most people add the ammonia rather than wait for the normal organics to turn to ammonia. Even the dust in the air will eventually seed a tank but most prefer quicker.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

^^

Typically ammonia comes from the fish... Alternatively some peopel do a 'fishless cycle' where they add liquid ammonia directly...

Plant matter can also break down and become an ammonia source...

Plant fertilizers might also be able to oxidize into a form of ammonia...

Any dirt or grime in the system might break down into several things including ammonia...

Ammonia is a very common chemical released by the process of biodegredation... So if somthings rotting, it's likely giving off ammonia...


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## Kaosone (Jun 29, 2009)

But every new tank with no fish in it just decor & substrate has he same ammonia spike so if no ammonia has been added (I did the daily 5ppm of ammonia to fishless cycle my Mbuna tank), no food has been added, nothing is rotting & no fish are in their then where is it coming from as there is noting in there to cause ammonia & it cant come from the water itself otherwise you'd be adding ammonia with every waterchange?


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

*it cant come from the water itself otherwise you'd be adding ammonia with every waterchange?*

I have seen a number of folk complaining of various amounts of detectable ammonia, right out of tap.


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## LSBoost (Jan 21, 2010)

If your water have chloramine, then yes there is ammonia added to the water straight out from the tap. This is why it is important to know if your water conditioner remove chloramine or not. If it doesn't remove chloramine then every water change you do is adding poison into your tank. :?

But no the amount of ammonia in tap water is not enough to cycle a tank.


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## Kaosone (Jun 29, 2009)

Waters been treated wit Aqua Plus which removes chlorine & chloramine.

So are you saying the inital ammonia spike is from the water as there is no bacteria in a new tank to remove it? Then when we do waterchanges we acutally add ammonia but once the tank is established there is a sufficent level of bacteria to deal with it?


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## LSBoost (Jan 21, 2010)

Yes the initial ammonia spike is because there's not enough nitrosomonas bacteria to convert ammonia into nitrite. Once there is enough of them to convert ammonia to nitrite then you will have nitrite spike because there's not enough nitrobacter bacteria to convert nitrite into nitrate. Nitrate will accumulate overtime and that's one of the reasons why you will need to do water changes.

There are ways to remove nitrate naturally. Nitrate is fertilizer so you can remove it by having a planted tank or a refugium sump filter. You have a marine tank so you know what a de-nitrator is right? Basically it's just a device to allow bacteria that doesn't use oxygen to grow. They will remove nitrate. A deep sand bed as you can imagine will also allow these bacteria to grow and remove nitrate.


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## Kaosone (Jun 29, 2009)

LSBoost said:


> Yes the initial ammonia spike is because there's not enough nitrosomonas bacteria to convert ammonia into nitrite. Once there is enough of them to convert ammonia to nitrite then you will have nitrite spike because there's not enough nitrobacter bacteria to convert nitrite into nitrate. Nitrate will accumulate overtime and that's one of the reasons why you will need to do water changes.
> 
> There are ways to remove nitrate naturally. Nitrate is fertilizer so you can remove it by having a planted tank or a refugium sump filter. You have a marine tank so you know what a de-nitrator is right? Basically it's just a device to allow bacteria that doesn't use oxygen to grow. They will remove nitrate. A deep sand bed as you can imagine will also allow these bacteria to grow and remove nitrate.


So as per the original question *where does the initial ammonia spike come from?* If nothing is rotting in a new & fresh tank then why do you get a spike to begin with.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I may be missing your question as it seems to have been answered already. It might be helpful to reread those answers. Maybe what you are calling a "spike" might not be a spike but just some normal ammonia reading. This is a site with a lot of good info.

http://www.freshwater-aquarium-fish.com ... mistry.htm


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## Kaosone (Jun 29, 2009)

_"This diagram shows the progression of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels during cycling. The values were taken from my African cichlid tank when I first set it up. I colored the curves to illustrate the toxicity of the various compounds. While there is a small green "safe" zone marked for ammonia and nitrite, these should be maintained at zero in the aquarium. I'm sure there is a "safe" level of carbon monoxide, I wouldn't buy a house that had it!"_

Still doesnt say where the inital Ammonia comes, just tells us what we already know. Bored now, going to put a green terror & a jaguar in my tank to make life more interestinig.....


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Kaosone said:


> So as per the original question *where does the initial ammonia spike come from?* If nothing is rotting in a new & fresh tank then why do you get a spike to begin with.


Tap water often contains Chloramines...

Chloramine is ammonia molectules chemically bonded with chlorine molecules...

Chloramines do not evaporate like CHlorine does, so treatment plants can dose water with a smaller quantity of chloramine than they could chlorine, to get the same effect...

Water conditions, such as Prime, Aqua Plus and many others, DO NOT "remove" Chloramines...

Any dechlorinator will break the bond of ammonia and chlorine... and will dissolve or evaporate the chlorine...

The dechlorinators that state they somehow get rid of chloramines actually convert ammonia to ammonium. Ammonium is (far) less toxic to fish but is still consumable by the bacteria in the system... Thus the ammonium is consumed by the biological filtration (bacteria) before it changes back into ammonia (which takes around 24 hours)...

So... if your tap water has chloramines... and you dose with Aqua Plus or a similar dechlorinator...

The chlorine is removed and the ammonia is converted to ammonium... which standard ammonia test kits detect as ammonia...

Thus this is very likely the source of ammonia you are trying to uncover...


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## Kaosone (Jun 29, 2009)

Toby_H said:


> Kaosone said:
> 
> 
> > So as per the original question *where does the initial ammonia spike come from?* If nothing is rotting in a new & fresh tank then why do you get a spike to begin with.
> ...


*WELL DONE THAT MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

Thanks mate, I can finally get a good nightÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s sleep & I owe it all to you. Well done everyone else for telling me what I already knew (despite how fancy the response was).

BTW the green terror & jag are in a lip lock & everyone else is hiding, my money is on the jag.


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## locomotive282 (Jun 2, 2009)

Not to beat a dead horse but adding a little bit of food to the tank is better than just adding ammonia. The food will be broken down into ammonia and the broken down food will also seed some trace organics that the bacteria will use to build themselves.


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## aaronjunited (Sep 29, 2009)

i did a test for ammonia today before my weekly water change along with the other tests. Nitrite was 0.25 ph was 7.9 and ammonia was 7, really deep orange colour, i was confused.

Before i did the water change i tested my tap water for the first time in fact. there was no ammonia in the water, and no nitrite and ph was 7.9

So if there was no ammonia in the tap water how could it be so high in the tank after a water change?

Is this ammonium?


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## aaronjunited (Sep 29, 2009)

anyone?? ^^^^^^


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

It is the same in most test kits, I know for the API drop test kit it is.
Refer to your manual literature.
It is only ammonium if the pH of the water is below neutral, somewhere in the acidic range like 5.0.

What is the ammonia source?
Is it fishless using liquid ammonia drops or are there fish in the tank?
7 is really high for ammonia, retest just to make sure.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Most aquarium ammonia tests register ammonia and ammonium as the same thing...

While it is true that ammonia will transform into ammonium once the PH gets below a certain point (aroudn 5.0 as mentioned)... There are other ways for ammonia to be converted to ammonium such as by dosing with Prime, Amquel and a few others...

Keep in mind when dosing with Prime Amquel or others the ammonia is only transformed to ammonium for around 24 hours... at which time it becomes ammonia again...


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## aaronjunited (Sep 29, 2009)

*** tested the last few days and after another water change the ammonia is sitting at 7.0 still.
There is fish in my tank, but i feed really small amounts 3 times every other day. PH is ok 7.9 and nitrites still 0.25


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

Are you detoxifying the ammonia?
Prime, amquel+, or ammo-lock all do this as Toby mentioned.
7.0 ammonia is really high and would have killed pretty much any and every fish quickly.
At the least you should notice fish gasping for air at the surface or having serious gill issues.

How big are your water changes?
To change water and not have any measurable difference after means you probably didn't change much.
I suggest 50% when levels exceed 0.50 ammonia.
I do the same when I find any level of nitrite.


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## aaronjunited (Sep 29, 2009)

detoxifying as in using water conditioner? i use water conditioner every water change. I'm Doing 50% water changes.
Fish are healthy, no signs of dying or anything, they dont gasp for air either, the water is crystal clear also.

Strange.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

7.0 is dangerously high for ammonia... personally, I would do a 100% water change to reset the pollutants to zero and then do whatever necessary water changes to keep ammonia/nitrite less than 1 ppm.

Adding Prime, Amquel or the like to 'detoxify' ammonia/nitrite is a good idea anytime you have detectable levels. Just keep in mind it's effects will only last 24 hours so daily dosing for detoxifying effects is necessary.


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## aaronjunited (Sep 29, 2009)

but i dont think its ammonia, there is no harm at all being done to the fish. they are fine.
i'm thinkin its ammonium.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

The fish emit ammonia, not ammonium...

It requires certain conditions for it to become ammonium.

As mentioned earlier, when the water is very acidic (PH 5 or less) the high acid content will transform ammonia to ammonium... under these conditions ammonia/ammonium is far less dangerous but I still would not be comfortable with 7ppm.

Or you can use an additive to convert it, but this will be a temporary effect.


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