# well water killing cichlids - metal toxicity?



## jfgino (Apr 1, 2009)

I have well water that I know has a high level of iron and possibly copper. The water is very hard (>300ppm) with a high PH (>8.4) . I've tried many different types of Cichlids but they always die. Some in a day and some after a week. I've lost both American and African Cichlids. I though I might be shocking them but they still die even if I take a week to acclimate them to the water. I can't keep any Cichlids alive in my main tank. I have a water softener and when I use soft water in a smaller tank they don't die. Could the heavey metals be killing them? Has anyone had an experience like this? Is there a level that the metals are toxic? I'll change the water in my main tank if I have to but I would like to know what is causing them to die.


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## bntbrl (Apr 23, 2009)

copper and zinc are two big ones taht are toxic to fish in levels that are acceptable to humans. Chlorine and other additives in our municipal drinking water are also toxic to fish (which your well water shouldnt have).

You can get a printout of the water quality and levels from your local government that states what parts mper million and what not and all everything is.

Are you letting the water sit a day or so before adding fish? Do you add any Prime or water treatments?

Are you cycling your tanks so taht you get proper biological bacteria built up?

How long does it take for the fish to die? What do they act like?


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## jfgino (Apr 1, 2009)

I've had the tank, with fish in it, for over a year. I started with Mollies and some sharks and had no problems. I got ride of those and got some Oscars. Never had any problems. I added a Pictus Cat and an African Knife with no problems. These fish did fine for months and then I tried to add a small Green Terror. It died. Then a Jack Dempsey. It also died. At different times I also tried some African Cichlids. A Bumble Bee, Yellow Lab, Red Zebra. They all died within a day to a week. I got rid of the Oscars, emptied the tank and cleaned the substrate and decorations. About 2 weeks later I changed the filter. After about 10 weeks with regular water changes I put 4 Yellow Labs and 2 Ice Blue Zebras in and within 24 hours 3 labs were dead. I took the Zebras and remaining Lab out and put them into a tank with soft water that I filled from my tap. I have a water softener in my house that feeds the tap. The 2 Zebras didn't make it, they were pretty bad when I put them in, but the Lab did. All this time the cat and knife fish have been in the tank and doing very well. I slowely (over 1 week) changed the tank with the Lab in it to all well water and it looked like the Lab was fine. I put it into the main tank and it lasted a week and died. I now have 3 Labs and an Ice Blue in another tank with a 3:1 ratio (soft:hard) and they are doing fine. I just don't want to transition them into the main tank because I know they will eventually die. I think my only option is to dilute the main tank 1:1 or some oither ratio. I just want to know for sure what is killing them. I have a small pool that I fill with hard water and the water turns a greenish color, because of the heavey metals, when I add chlorine. I have to add something to clear it up. The pool people say it is Iron or Copper. The cat and knife are still doing fine.

I'm lost and need help with this. Any help is greately appreciated.


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## bntbrl (Apr 23, 2009)

1. With the oscars in the tank is it possible that they killed the jack and the other fish you put in there?

2.


> emptied the tank and cleaned the substrate and decorations. About 2 weeks later I changed the filter. After about 10 weeks with regular water changes I put 4 Yellow Labs and 2 Ice Blue Zebras in and within 24 hours 3 labs were dead.


 It sounds like you may have removed all the biological filtration and the tank had to recycle and perhaps ammonia killed this lot of fish.?.

3. It is odd that the catfish and the knifefish are fine.

4. You have readings from your test kit for nitrates, nitrites, ammonia, ph etc? There are test kits for copper available for the saltwater realm, I would think that thered be one that is good for freshewater as well.

Did you add any water conditioner to the freshly added water? Prime and some others will attach to heavy metals and bind them so that they are not as toxic to your fish.

I would personally start out wiht a test kit and read everything and make sure everything is cycled. Does your water softener add any chlorine to the tapwater? epsom salt? Other additives before it goes into the house plumbing tapwater? Does your water pressure tank have a galvonized coating? It looks like almost army camo but in metal colors if you look closely?


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## jfgino (Apr 1, 2009)

1. Very unlikely that the Oscars killed the other fish. None had any bite marks or anything like that. I should mention that some of the fish act very funny before they die. Some times their mouths are open like they can't breath and some will dart around the tank before they die. Others just lie on the bottom. I know this sounds like ammonia but as you will see below I've checked this and don't believe this is the problem.

2. Possible but I think its unlikely since I waited over 10 weeks before I introduced the new fish and I had the cat and knife fish in the tank the entire time.

3. Very odd. They seem to be thriving.

4. I have a dip strip that always reads fine for nitrites and nitrates. The pH on the strip is always maxed out at 8.4 and the hardness is maxed out at 300ppm. I also bought a dropper kit for ammonia and it reads 0.0.

I haven't tried any water conditioners yet because I don't want to add anything without knowing for sure what the problem is. I also was hoping that I wouldn't have to add something every time I do a water change. I don't think the water softener adds anything to the water and I believe it removes iron and possibly some other metals. I'm going to call the company tomorrow and find out exactly what it is doing. Also, the fish seem to do fine in the softened water.

I've seen the conditioners in stores that describe metal toxicity and that is what started me thinking about this. I thought I was shocking the fish with the very hard water and high pH but after the last Lab died I think I can rule that out since I acclimated it for almost a week.

I have a very old galvanized pressure tank. Probably the original (>45yrs). I'm sure that if there was a galvanized coating on the inside of the tank it has worn off by now.

I thought I was very lucky having such hard water with a high pH but it doesn't seem to be turning out that way.


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## bntbrl (Apr 23, 2009)

So you are using water that has bypassed the water softener/filtration and they die. When you use the water that is ran through the water softener they are okay?

What are the water parameters coming out of the water softener? The ph and the hardness?


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## jfgino (Apr 1, 2009)

The pH doesn't change and is > 8.4. The hardness is reduced to 0ppm. When I acclimated the Yellow Lab I started by using all soft water. I then went to 3:1 soft to hard then 2:1, 1:1, 1:2 then all hard. I currently have 3 Yellow Labs, 1 Ice Blue and 1 Electric Blue in a different tank with a 3:1 ratio and they are doing great. The've been in the tank for about 1 week. I can tell that the are okay by the way they are moving around. Nothing strange going on with them. I'm going to change the water tonight and make it 1:1. The hardness is at ~25ppm right now. This is why I am thinking of changing my main tank to 1:1. The hardness drops down to 150ppm and the pH stays the same at > 8.4. I measured the hardness for different ratios and made a table so I can make almost any hardness that I want to. I'm going to call the water softener company and find out what metals are being removed from the water.


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## jfgino (Apr 1, 2009)

I had a long conversation with someone from the water softener company and he told me that the softener removes all cations from the water. These are any positive charges. He said most metals are positively charged so most likely the softener is removing the metals from the water. He recommended going to a pool store and buying a kit that measures metals to see what is in the water. I called the local pool store and, although they don't sell the kits, they told me I can bring a sample in and they will test the water for Iron, Copper and Manganese. I think I'm closing in on the problem.


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## bntbrl (Apr 23, 2009)

Im not familiar with iron or manganese, but I do nknow that high levels of copper and zinc are bad for your fish and plants, and especially saltwater inverts. with inverts it somehow attaches to their gills and they suffocate basically somehow. Im sure if you googled it thered be more info. If they can check for zinc Id ask about that too.


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## jfgino (Apr 1, 2009)

I will ask about that. I'm thinking about changing the tank water over to soft water and using Epsom salt to increase the hardness. This way I know the metals are out of the water and I can easily control the hardness. The pH of the soft water is already high. Is Epsom salt a good way to increase the hardness?


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## bntbrl (Apr 23, 2009)

Most likely thats about what is running through the water softener anyway.

If it were me Id just use the water out of the softener and try to condition the water from there. Since you know you have a problem you would have to adjust your fish slowly when adding new ones. Id still recommend getting your metals checked and I would also try to get a sheet of your groundwater quality. You should be able to look online and get something or call the county that issues the permits for deep well water if you have to get permits.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

If it is heavy metals (not sure it is (I do not know your levels or the toxic levels for the fish you mention) but I guess it could be) why not use a HMA filter or similar on the tap water? You can get ones that are reasonably priced. You can get ones that remove heavy metals and/or chlorine and chloramines and/or nitrates too. Lots of choices.


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## jfgino (Apr 1, 2009)

I did have my tap water tested about 3 years ago and the results showed ND (not detected) for Iron, Lead and Manganese. The person who sold the water softener told me it was a very good one and from the results of the test it looks like it is. It also looks like it is still working very well since the water hardness is 0 whenever I measure it. I am going to use the tap from now on and just raise the hardness. I could use an external filter but I have the softener that I know takes all the metals out so why not use it. I've been trying to figure this out for about 4 months. What a different problem. I do think I got it now.


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## bntbrl (Apr 23, 2009)

Just because you use well water doesnt mean that you cant also use water conditioners. I grew up with well water and still used water conditioners. I normally used Stresscoat when I did water changes or added new fish. I rarely lost fish. I didnt start losing fish until I got all growed up and started experimenting.


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## jfgino (Apr 1, 2009)

So after hearing everything that I've tried do you think it's metals or something else? It still doesn't make sense the the cat and knife are doing fine. I guess I'll slowely switch over my smaller tank and see if the fish survive before changing the large tank.


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## bntbrl (Apr 23, 2009)

Have you done a complete waterchange inteh big tank? Did u use something to clean it with? Chemicals or cleaners?


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## jfgino (Apr 1, 2009)

Did a complete water change about 3 months ago. Didn't use any cleaners. The cat and knife have been doing great in the big tank before and after the water change. I've had 3 yellow labs, 1 ice blue zebra and 1 electric blue in softened water for almost 2 weeks now and they seem to be doing great.

I had my water tested this weekend for iron and copper and they both came in at 0. I went to 2 different pool stores and both read 0. Both agreed that there is a metal in the water because my pool changes color when I add chlorine.

I also spoke to the water softener people and found out that with the hard water that I have the soft water will have at least 135mg/qt of sodium in it. Is this to high? I'm worried about the long term affects of the sodium.


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

ground/well water has very low oxygen content, so if your fish deaths are timely with water changes, it may be relevant. HTH.


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## bntbrl (Apr 23, 2009)

I didnt thin k abotu o2 levels. I had a wellwater system setup for years and years and never saw any signs on depleted o2. Not saying it isnt so in your case though. What would low 02 levels affect? Biolfilter, but Im not sure if anything else would happen, like things changing in the water as a result of lower 02. Only the fish having less o2.


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