# Laetacara dorsigera sick, any ideas?



## kribs (Oct 31, 2011)

Hi, (just realized its quite long, so thanks for your patience in case you read it all )

To start with my tank is 90lt, and has been running for 4 years. Temperature is around 26-27 degrees, it is heavily planted, some fertilizers, DIY CO2. (ferts and CO2 are not on the high tech range) Water is of medium hardness.

I have a pair of L. dorsigera that went extremely quite and shy during the last 5 weeks, up to the point where they do not eat unless the food is just a few cm's away. I have been feeding them on NSL pellets and sera freeze dried Tubifex worms. They look fine, I mean no visible scars, not losing weight, but it looks as if they are drugged, if you know what I mean. They spend some of their time by literally resting on the sand in a dark spot!

When I got them they were pretty healthy (around 2 months ago), and would come to the surface to take food, always wandering around the tank together. I made some decor changes and the pair started acting a bit shy. They spawned on the 3rd week after their introduction. The babies survived for around 10 days. At that time I also had a group of rasboras, and removed them to increase my chances for the next batch of fry. I thought their shyness was related to breeding, but after the fry disappeared, the male started harassing the female, and soon after that they both started acting quite lathergic.

I also have single male ram in the tank, which is doing great. Big appetite, quite lively. He has been in the tank for a year now. (he is dominated by the laetacaras, no chance he is harassing them) The other inhabitants are 5 sterbai cory's, a single 5 year old neon tetra (from an old school that I had), 8 golden pencilfish and some shrimps and nerite snails. Everything except the Laetacaras are doing great. (shrimp breeding, pencilfish courting,..) I added the pencilfish recently, thinking that the removal of rasboras made the Laetacara's feel insecure. Honestly the addition of 8 pencilfish as dithers did not change anything.

I have been doing daily %20 water changes (with water that has been resting for a day, so no chlorine), stopped fetilizing, no change. I have seen transparent feces a few times, but when they eat, the feces looks normal. I suspected hexamita, so started feeding them food soaked in metronidezol. I am on the 4th day of metro soaked feeding, so far no change. I am really worried because I can not diagnose and really like this pair... If, only the female fish was in this condition, I would relate it to the aggression from the male, but actually the male is in worse condition at the moment. I have quite a lot of experience with cichlids, and I am feeling really frustrated... Any suggestion is greatly appreciated.


----------



## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

What are the water parameters? pH, KH/GH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrates

Can't really say what is wrong without the water conditions... Altho white stringy feces is most likely a sign of parasites... Couple pictures would help as well...


----------



## kribs (Oct 31, 2011)

Thanks for the reply. I agree that water parameters are very important, but I can not afford the tests at the moment. I can assume that they are ok, because the otocinclus and the shrimp are constantly breeding, and the ramirezi is in perfect condition. If there was a problem with the water, I guess the ram would be the first to go and the rest of the animals would not be so happy. (ramirezi are quite sensitive about water conditions as far as I know)

Anyway I will see if I can get any tests. But not sure I can a get a full range test kit soon. I can try taking photos but since the fish constantly hide in dark spots its really difficult. And I am pretty confident that they are in good shape except their lethargic behaviour.

Is stringy whitish feces always a sign of hexamita, or can it indicate intestinal worms or nematodes as well?


----------



## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

kribs said:


> Is stringy whitish feces always a sign of hexamita, or can it indicate intestinal worms or nematodes as well?


From what I've been able to find, nematodes will result in a slimy, but normally colored feces.
They will also be visible in the feces, however I assume that you'll need at least basic magnification to be able to see them.
Aside from the fish still eating, it sounds like hexamita (bloat). Perhaps you've caught it quite early, in which case I would continue the metro soaked food as long as they're eating promptly as it enters the water.
Stringy, white feces is a result of mucus build up in the intestines. I assume, perhaps incorrectly but I don't think so, that other parasites can cause the same symptoms.


----------



## kribs (Oct 31, 2011)

Thanks GTZ, your information matches what I know. So I will continue with metro soaked food. I spot feed the couple with long lab tweezers, so they eat it just a few seconds after the soaked food enters the water. I guess it should be ok. They no longer come out to eat, so this is the only way to feed them anyway. I am mainly using FD tubifex worms, as the fish are more eager to eat them and they are quite absorbent.

There are tons of reports on the web where people complain that metro does not fully cure the these symptoms, I will just continue for 2 weeks and see what happens. White feces is quite rare by the way, I have seen it only twice. Usually it looks fine.

I will probably try to deworm them, too. Just in case.

The lethargic condition of the fish is really painful to see, they were such a beautiful pair...


----------



## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

I don't have any personal experience feeding freeze dried foods, but I've read reports of some foods expanding after being eaten causing obstructions/bloating. Just trying to cover all the bases here. Make sure it has fully expanded before feeding.
Also, it's quite difficult to overdose using metro. For treating bloat, the recommended dosage for soaking food is 150mg metro dissolved in 1 tbsp of tank water.
Best of luck and keep us updated.


----------



## kribs (Oct 31, 2011)

Sure feeding too much FD food is not a good thing, but at the moment its the only food they eagerly eat, and it absorbs really well. They eat NSL pellets so slowly that even the fricking pencilfish get more food than the Laetacaras. With FD worms and a long tweezer, I can directly feed the couple.

They both show increased appetite for the last 2 days, and I occasionally see the female cruising around, looking for food. I am a bit relieved. Fingers crossed for the male...

But of course, something had to go wrong, and I realized that 2 of the newly introduced pencilfish do not eat well. On closer inspection, I decided they could have camallanus worms :S I did not see the typical red worm waving out of the anus, but something almost as thin as a hair and almost colorless. Seperated the 2 of them in a little container floating in the main tank, I am dosing them with azoo anti endoparasites since last night. I think they have shed plently of worms so far, I can see very thin worm like stuff on the bottom of the container. I was really stupid to think that the problem about laetacaras was a lack of dither fish... Now I just have more trouble. I guess thats the last fish I get before getting a quarantine tank.

Of course the whole tank is probably infected, but I will finish the metro routine and switch to dewormers after that. I think 2 treatments at the same time might be too stressing. Any ideas on that? I just don't want to destroy the kidneys of the fish...


----------



## kribs (Oct 31, 2011)

Just an update on the subject; the pair doing slightly better, but the male is still extremely shy and the female is not in the same lively condition as she was before spawning. I started soaking their food in Azoo Discus anti endoparasites medication, which has metronidazole, mebendazole, levamisole and vitamin B1. I guess it tastes better than my home made crushed flagyl metro solution. They started going after the food at least, which is an improvement.

I will continue this for another week, which means that I will have done a 2 week metro treatment as well as a one week of deworming. If I don't see any improvement I will try to set up a quarantine tank and try a sera bactopur direct (nifurpirinol) treatment.

I also seperated the 2 pencilfish that I suspected to have worms and have been deworming them for about 4 days. I saw quite a bit of thin worm like white stuff at the bottom of the container and they show better appetite. I am not even sure they are dead worms, because it is hard to imagine they would all fit in that little bellies of 4 cm pencilfish... This is the first time I encountered worms (at least that I know of) in my 20 years of fishkeeping!

In case anyone has any suggestions, it's all welcome. The pair still show darkened coloration and some lethargy.

Thanks


----------



## kribs (Oct 31, 2011)

In case there is someone interested, after flagyl soaked FD food fed by tweezers for 2 weeks, the pair is finally eating and pooping well. They even come to the surface to take food sometimes, I am really happy about the results. I have also been doing %20 daily water changes, and during the last week I soaked their food in azoo discus anti-endoparasites, just in case.

I was keeping sera bactopur direct and some other meds ready, thinking I might need them, I am really glad that I didn't have to chemically nuke the whole tank.

The pencilfish are free of the camallanus worm, (at least it seems so), and I even rescued one egg which has grown into a 1 cm young pencilfish so far.

One side note, I quit dosing CO2, and after that the pair improved much faster. I switched totally to low tech plants, and will never dose again. Not to say that it's bad or something, but I just feel more comfortable without it.

To sum up, I did lots of things, and really don't know which one did the trick. Maybe they had some internal bacterial infection induced by stress and all the factors helped them to heal on themselves.

I still feel they are not at the same level of health as they were before things started, but I am pretty sure they are on the right track.

Thanks for all the suggestions and help.


----------



## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Glad to hear that things are improving, as you say, sometimes it can be difficult to nail down the one thing or combination of actions that lead to a successful recovery.
Also, thanks for keeping us updated, I'm sure the information will help someone find much needed info from a forum search. :thumb:


----------



## kribs (Oct 31, 2011)

Everything seems ok at the moment except one little thing that bothers me.

The male is in great health and excellent appetite, but the female is always hesitant to eat food. The thing is she is making a "yawning" movement almost all the time, and swallows the food very slowly. I removed the pencilfish to let the laetacaras eat easier, and it helped, but still the yawning bothers me.

I considered gill flukes as a possible cause, but she does not show any problems with breathing. (I mean the gill movements look normal). The male and the ramirezi do not show any similar symptom. The Corydoras sterbai are also acting normal.

So anyone has ever experienced fish yawning continuously along with some difficulty in eating?

Any ideas are welcome.

Thanks in advance.


----------

