# Mixed Tank?



## Fisherman89 (Dec 3, 2008)

I Have a 55 Gallon long. It is my second tank. the First was a ten gallon that has one fantail gold fish, a danio and a little pleco. So i am just getting into Cichlids. I was wondering if i could Mix African, South American, and Central American as long as i make sure they all fall under the same food, aggression and water conditions. I had convicts in my tank but i was holding them for a friend. Now i want to get my own fish.
Thanks!


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

The rift lakes that most African Cichlids come from have hard water with a high PH...
The rivers of South America have softer water with a lower PH...
Rivers & ponds of Central America have moderate water with a more neutral PH...

But all that being said... most fish that are aquarium bred do fine in moderate/neutral conditions...

I've heard many people say that it appears Africans and SA/CAs "speak a different language", meaning that their body language does not compute with each other. So in SA a fin slap might mean "come here big boy" but in African it might mean "get outta my tank!" I have no clue how legit this concept is, but I've heard it a lot.

But also keep in mind there are African River fish that are not from the rift lakes, whose natural environment has simmilar water conditions to SA. These are fish like the West AAfrican Jewels, which I do keep with my SA/CA Cichlids.

But as far as the rift lake Cichlids go, I do not keep them with my SA/CA Cichlids, although I know people who do with little problems. From what I know of both types of fish the biggest risk is aggression. Africans get tough/mean when still quite small, SA/CA Cichlids are usually a little wimpy until they mature. Mature SA/CA Cichlids are usually far larger than Africans (depending on species obviously). SO this means it's likely the SA/CA will get killed/injured when they are small... but if he grows out to full size he is likely to return the love...

So although I didn't directly answer your question, I hope that information helps you make a decision...


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## zackdmb (Feb 28, 2007)

Youre not going to find any African cichlids that have the same water parameters as a Central or South American cichlid. For instance look at the African lakes alone in terms of pH:

Lake Malawi species: 7.4 â€" 8.6
Lake Tanganyika species: 7.8 â€" 9.0
Lake Victoria species: 7.2 â€" 8.6

and

Central Americans should have a pH of 7.0-7.8
South Americans 5.0-8.0 depending on the species

and thats just pH...kH and gH will also vary from lake to lake and country to country.

You're better off sticking with either Africans, and IMO stick with one of the lakes, CA's, or SA's. Once you start mixing Africans with CA's or SA's youre getting yourself into a heap of trouble in the future.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

W African Jewels... http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... hp?id=2508

Soft water with a PH of 6.0 ~ 7.6...

Do I win anything?


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## imusuallyuseless (Dec 28, 2005)

I've mixed them in a 180G w/o too many problems, but many of the fish were juvies. My dad does currently have a 55G w/pink cons, yellow labs, red zebras and australian rainbowfish. He does basic maintenance and they all get along well enough to breed in his tank.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

zackdmb said:


> Youre not going to find any African cichlids that have the same water parameters as a Central or South American cichlid. For instance look at the African lakes alone in terms of pH:
> 
> Lake Malawi species: 7.4 â€" 8.6
> Lake Tanganyika species: 7.8 â€" 9.0
> ...


ok, but look at the congo river basins, niger river basins etc, they are in africa and have soft water with acidic pH, so isnt that like SA conditions? you are only taking the rift lakes into account, africa does not only consist of rift lakes with a high pH and high Hardness.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

Toby_H said:


> W African Jewels... http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... hp?id=2508
> 
> Soft water with a PH of 6.0 ~ 7.6...
> 
> Do I win anything?


 :lol:


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## lotsofish (Feb 28, 2008)

We mix the same pH and hardness for both our Africans and our Central American cutteri which are also come from a higher pH and hardness. I've wondered if the fish would work in the same tank but haven't been willing to try it.

As a beginner, I don't think it would be wise to mix cichlids from different areas but if you decide to do it, have a second tank ready so you can move fish if there are aggression issues.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Toby_H said:


> Rivers & ponds of Central America have moderate water with a more neutral PH...


 Waters from Central America are more often very hard and basic. Waters that are actually as high or higher in mineral content and PH then Lake Malawi.

Nevertheless, PH does not usually matter as long as stability can be maintained. Usually, tap water is more then good enough, especially with tough Cichlids.

Yes, of course a mix can work, very well, in a 4 ft. 55, you just need small enough fish; enough fish to spread aggression and nothing insanely aggressive. For example something like:

1 female convict, 1 yellow lab or demasoni, 1 jewel cihlid, 1 blue acara, 1 male blue gourami, 1 CAE, 1 BN pleco, 1 rainbow or red tailed shark, 1 male kribensis, and might as well add 1 Tiger Barb, 1 giant danio and 1 swordtail and see if any of them can make it :lol:


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Toby_H said:


> Bernie... no need to be harsh... I may have been mistaken, or even dead wrong, but I'm not "full of BS"... You should know better...


Well, this time you ARE. SO what :lol:


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Toby_H said:


> The rift lakes that most African Cichlids come from have hard water with a high PH...
> The rivers of South America have softer water with a lower PH...
> Rivers & ponds of Central America have moderate water with a more neutral PH...
> 
> But all that being said... most fish that are aquarium bred do fine in moderate/neutral conditions...


Despite someone not agreeing... I stand by this as a solid general guideline for keeping Cichlids. As with everything in life, there are exceptions to the rule... and if one wished they could nick pick it apart... If the differing of opinions is at all misleading, spending a few minutes googling: water hardness cichlid, will give you a handful of pages to look over and gain a better understanding for yourself...

...Welcome to Cichlid Forum... let us know what you decide.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Actually, after re-reading all the pocts I must admit : I jumped the gun and was a little unfair to Toby. Toby basd his answer on HIS experience but I have mixed for 30 years and more SO:the fact remains pH is a non-issue and it is very do-able. Very much so. You can elimenate "con-specific" agression or lesen it but of course there is no way around the competitive nature of Cichlids. That is a given however you keep them.


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## Fisherman89 (Dec 3, 2008)

I will most certainly keep you updated as to what fish i decide on. Here is a list of the fish i was thinking of using in my tank. this is pretty genaric but basicly what i have to pick from as far as local pet stores go. 
-please bare with me on spelling-

Frontosa
Melanochromis Auratus
Jack Dempsey
Venustus 
Electric yellow lab 
Blue Electric (Melanochromis johannii)
kenya (what is the deal with these are there a lot of variety with these)
Livingstoni
Texas
Green Terror
Salvini
Thick skin (victorian fish)

I like all of them but like most Mbunas as well
I feel overwhelmed with my decision. I want a good selection because i am buying them young and want to watch them grow.

I already have one fish it is a cichlid however it is purple with electric that glow, and has slightly darker stripes. I will try to get a picture.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Toby_H said:


> But all that being said... most fish that are aquarium bred do fine in moderate/neutral conditions...


Exactly... Toby has typed the single most important thing that's been typed in this entire thread.


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## josmoloco (Aug 23, 2008)

Wow that is quite a mix Fisherman 89, reminds me of my 125. 
Venustus 1m?
Blue Electric Hap x2 1m 1f
Salvini female
Texas
Nic male
cutteri
firemouth male
pair convicts
mutant back barred blood parrot thing
Blue peacock x3 2m 1f
albino peacock x2 2m
malawi blue dolpohin x3
giant danio x5
pictus x2
"golden shark" barb x1

Very heavly stocked, No mbuna,firemouth and convicts will be moved eventually.
I love it! All fed on a protien rich diet.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Fisherman89 said:


> Frontosa
> Melanochromis Auratus
> Jack Dempsey
> Venustus
> ...


Frontosa ------ gets pretty big, should probabley have at the very least a 4' X 2' space, once it gets a little older. Never owned one ever, but from my unerstanding are pretty laid back fish; have a reputation for being fairly unaggessive for a cichlid. But too big for a 55 gal.

Melanochromis auratus ----- reputation as toughest and most aggressive mbuna. IME will pick on what ever it can and will bite most fish in the tail, quite frequently! Definately a candidate for most aggressive fish. If you attempt to stock it , better make sure ALL it's tankmates are very tough!

JD -- probably about as big as you would want for a 55 gal. Every fish has its own personality; A very big variation in temperments and personality exist in JD's today. It's an option in a 55 gal. though.

Venestus --- IMO, get's too big for a 55 . Also, Potentially too aggresive for that space. Ounce for ounce, often too wussy for aggressive mbuna, especially at younger age.

Electric yellow mbuna- Still a very tough fish , though less aggressive then most mbuna. An option, though the hybrid electirc yellows are always some what on an unknown.

Melanochromis johanni --- never owned one but my understanding is that it is similar to an auratus but USUALLY somewhat less aggresssive.

Kenyi - very aggressive mbuna.If you stock it in a mixed tank , better make sure it is not dominant and the other tankmates are able to stand up to it.

livingstoni - pretty much the same thing as a venestus. neither ever did well in my tanks at a young age because of aggressive mbuna.

Texas --- too big for a 55 gal. Can get 12"" and very deep bodied. Aggressive. Might work well for a while but you will need a bigger tank eventually.

GT -- another potentially 12" or more, heavy bodied fish. Very aggressive, though usually ounce for ounce, not a very tough fish.

Salvini-- an option in a 55. Usually males do not get much more then 8".

Thick skin ( Victorian fish) . Have not had too much success keeping Victorian and victorian - like fish ( eg. Astatotilapia bloyetti) with CA. They are very aggressive but IME and IMO they are not suffeciently armoured ( thickness of scales, etc. ) at least at a young age, to live with CA. Back in the 70's I had 3 different typs of "bartoni" : a green, a blue and a yellow kind; none of which lasted very long. Males were VERY aggressive and spent most of there time chasing the females. Have not kept them enough to know what suitable tankmates could be for these fish.


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## josmoloco (Aug 23, 2008)

First off a green terror won't grow 12" plus in a 55g. 8" would be a good size specimen, and possibly for the texas also, depending on gender/species.Frontosas don't need a 4x2 space either. Try what you like but these fish would do better in a 100 gallon. In my setup I stuck to the smaller ca cichlids and only haps and peacocks for the rift lake cichlids. mbuna cause trouble,especially lombardi and melechromis.


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## phishes (May 17, 2005)

josmoloco said:


> First off a green terror won't grow 12" plus in a 55g. 8" would be a good size specimen, and possibly for the texas also, depending on gender/species.Frontosas don't need a 4x2 space either. Try what you like but these fish would do better in a 100 gallon. In my setup I stuck to the smaller ca cichlids and only haps and peacocks for the rift lake cichlids. mbuna cause trouble,especially lombardi and melechromis.


I think the front would be way too big in a 55g, and a GT or texas wouldn't work w/ tank mates. Sure, they are slow growers, but I agree w/ bernie in the post above. Also, there is no way an adult GT or texas would allow any other tank mates in 4' of tank space.
I do agree w/ smaller CAs and the other Affricans for a 55g. Also from what I understand, CAs mature slower then some of the Affricans. That means the Affricans may be more aggressive at a younger age, and the CAs may not make it to adult hood. I could be wrong, but I don't have a lot experience w/ Affricans. Some people have told me that is one reason you shouldn't mix. 
All my CA and SA fish are very healthy w/ a neutral ph. I think that being at the extremes of ph maybe where you may have problems.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Good advice from your individual experiences in the last three posts. There's nothing like experience to learn from.

Original poster.

I commend you for doing your research, this site has many aquarists you could learn from who've been doing it for a long time. I'm going to throw my $.02 in on this and say no matter what, every cichlid is different. Every cichlid will have it's own personality. BUT, when first starting out it would be wise to follow the reputations of certain cichlids. Then as you become more familiar with your own personal fish you will be able to judge what can be kept with what.

It's also wise to have extra tanks on hand when attempting a cichlid "community" Ususally rather large confines are required in order to have a long term successful cichlid community.

On as side note (and I like to do this for a public service announcement in my folder every once and a while) debates are encouraged, but please keep it pleasant. There's a lot of people with many different experiences on this forum. When posting please be nice. Nice being the key word. And remember, there's a ton of different backgrounds here so when you post be sure you've got your thick skin on!


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## RyanR (Apr 29, 2008)

TheFishGuy said:


> Toby_H said:
> 
> 
> > But all that being said... most fish that are aquarium bred do fine in moderate/neutral conditions...
> ...


Ack! I was going to reply in agreement (Africans and New Worlds do AOK in our municipal tap water)... but I just looked over, and our Redbreast Acaras are spawning! 

-Ryan


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## josmoloco (Aug 23, 2008)

Why do people always mix mbuna with ca cichlids. Peacocks and haps are much better choices when it comes to size, aggresion, movement and especially diet. They do fin in my ph 7.6-7.8 untreated well water.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

josmoloco said:


> Why do people always mix mbuna with ca cichlids. Peacocks and haps are much better choices when it comes to size, aggresion, movement and especially diet. They do fin in my ph 7.6-7.8 untreated well water.


Many people do or have mixed pecocks and haps with CA. That they could/would be a better choice then mbuna would depend on many things. These are some things to consider:

1) Some of the haps get big. Much better to keep them in big tanks.

2)Fish tend to compete with others of similar size. Once CA are full grown they are not as likely to see smaller mbuna as much of a competitor; but a large aggressive hap certainly could be seen that way, for sure. All depends on what hap and what CA you stock it with and of course what SIZE of tank.

3)Peacocks are not usually very tough. They are likely to end up at the bottom of the pecking order ---- it might be ignored ---- OR somebody might pick on it, or it might be in someone's way. IMO, unless your tanks are big, it's not a very safe bet.

Diet ----- all fish we are talking about are omnivores. Of course some have more of a carniverous tendency and others more vegetarian. Nevertheless, in captivity, all can be maintained on a quality cichlid pellet. Even NLS, the brand seen by many as the best pellet for mbuna is much more meat based as it's main ingredient is Krill. Of course all fish need some plant matter in their diet ( even a piscivore would get plant matter from the stomach contents of it's prey), but in captivity it makes sense to feed more meat because it is a more concentrated nutrition and plant matter has to be consumed in very large quantities to provide the same nutrition and produces a lot more waste.

Movement ---- the constant movement of mbuna can bring a "lazy" CA tank to life. IMO, can make shy fish feel more comfortable. As a subordinate to larger CA, they are very good at keeping out of the way and keeping their distance. Swim away from the boss when they have to and swim right back to their territory.


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## StillaZilla (Aug 22, 2008)

I have a 6" p. carbo, bumblebee mbuna, in my 300L with an oscar parrot cichlid and many convicts. Oscar is never bothered, and the parrot and bumblebee are always challenging each other, but the real bosses are the convicts. But overall a very co-operative tank.
ph is 6.8, water is hard.


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## clgkag (Mar 22, 2008)

I agree that each has to research and try this out on their own. Each fish has its own personality and what works for one, doesn't for another. If you are using wildcaught fish, I don't think you could keep them all together. Tank raised or farm raised and I believe you will be fine. I do think you need a larger aquarium. Several fish, both new world and old world, that you have selected will eventually grow too large for a 48 x 12 aquarium. Imagine your self trying to live in a 6 ft tall by 2 foot square room for life. Sure you could do it, but would you like it and thrive? Start with all small fish know some will grow faster than others and some will be adult faster than others. Be prepared to step up to a 125 or larger in a year to 18 months. Good luck and let us know how it goes, especially with pics.


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## Fisherman89 (Dec 3, 2008)

I was just throwing that list out of what I like and the ones i know of. I Did Purchase fish i think below this post is the list of Fish i ended up purchasing. I tried to stay away from the big south americans. I had to get a Venustus I think they are cool fish. All the fish I got are small. How long will my tank be big enough. With the list of Fish I have (see signature below). How big of a Tank would I need to Accommodate them all. The Only other Fish I acctually want to get besides the ones i already have. Is Frontosa


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

You now have a predominantly Malawian tank ( with exception of the pleco, thick skinned victorian and possibly your unknown purple fish, though chances are it's a Malawian as well). You would be best to post in the Malawi section, stating your tank size and a list of all your new fish, and see what recomendations can be made as far as adding fish and time line before a larger tank may become nessesary.


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## Fisherman89 (Dec 3, 2008)

Thanks will do.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

I can tell you you may potentially have a problem with the venustus and the kenyi. Especially if either turn out to be male. They could potentially go on killing sprees....


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## trimac (Mar 27, 2003)

Most of these fish are not from the wild so PH doesn't even matter. As long as aggression and size are similar you will be okay-I have had my Americans with the following:
Buttikefori
Hap. Comp.
Hap. Livingstoni
Hap. Polystigma
some of the Americans I had with them were
Large Pikes
Oscars
even a Black Belt.


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## trimac (Mar 27, 2003)

Personally, I would do a non aggressive large predatory mixed tank:
Oscar 
Pike 
Snook
Hap. Comp
Hap. Livingstoni
T. Chromis
would be sweet but you need atleast a 125 gallon probably larger!
I have a Red Oscar, P. Bass, Ornate Bichir, and a CK in my 240 and they do fine.


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