# New 20 Gallon setup



## paronaram (Oct 13, 2009)

Hello All,

Few days ago I setup a 20G long for my future Tangs.
So basically I am trying to cycle my tank, before I had any fish.
I am doing regular water parameter readings, and start noticing that NH3 (Ammonia), dropping. 
It is currently about 0.35.
pH is stable at around 8.6
Temp 80F

Do I need to worry about GH and KH? With regular API kit it can not be even measured 
I did use a cichlid tank water buffering recipe (found here in this forum)

All I know our city water is soft, so making buffer will be beneficial for fish.

Thanks!


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

> Do I need to worry about GH and KH?


Yes. There are is a separate API Kit for measuring the Hardness - I would get one.

The hardness is directly related to the stability of the pH. If you Google "kH and GH effect on pH" there are plenty of reads on it.

You want stable water more than anything for tangs. A pH spike one way or another would be bad.

Good Luck.

p.s. I assume you are doing a fishless cycle - you need to get the ammonia up to about 3ppm each day and check 24hrs later. Once that second reading is zero the tank is cycled - but you continue to add ammonia to the water everyday until the morning you get your fish - you have to keep feeding the bacteria! That morning you do a 95% water change and (wait for FedEx/go get your fish) a couple of hours later.

If you knew all this then sorry but if you aren't sure - ask questions.


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## paronaram (Oct 13, 2009)

Thanks for reply!

Yea, I got about 1-2 gallon of tank water (the tank that I will be getting fish from)
and squeezed sponge filter in it.
All that went in my tank. Tank was crystal clear, after I apply the "mix"
water turn in to milky  , and after 24 hours tank was clear again 8) .
So it's about 48 hours past, and I am waiting for NH3 drop to 0.

I do have gH and kH kit (by API)
The problem is that, I can't get reading done with it ... it max measures up to ~240ppm on both gH and kH. No change happens, water sample in test tube stays the same color with one drop of solution or 12!

Thanks.


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

paronaram said:


> Thanks for reply!
> 
> Yea, I got about 1-2 gallon of tank water (the tank that I will be getting fish from)
> and squeezed sponge filter in it.
> ...


Look up fishless cycle here is one good example - you need to add ammonia to get it up to around 3ppm (4-5ppm is a bit excessive unless you are adding a bunch of adult fish). I neglected the Nitrites in my previous post .

It is very important to do this correctly or your tangs will definitely not be happy in about 6 weeks when a cycle begins.


> I do have gH and kH kit (by API)
> The problem is that, I can't get reading done with it ... it max measures up to ~240ppm on both gH and kH. No change happens, water sample in test tube stays the same color with one drop of solution or 12!


Keep adding drops it will change eventually - meaning you have very hard water so no need to buffer :thumb:.


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## paronaram (Oct 13, 2009)

I found THIS URL that has almost the same instructions. And I start working with it ...
I added ~ 1mL of clean ammonia, and reading jumped up to 4ppm
I also added new heater to bring the temperature to 84-85F

Will do the ammonia check tomorrow morning and see if it drop at all ...

gH and kH are high after adding Epsom salt, baking soda and salt - Rift Lake Buffer Recipe
Tap water is soft around here.

Thanks


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

paronaram said:


> I found THIS URL that has almost the same instructions. And I start working with it ...
> I added ~ 1mL of clean ammonia, and reading jumped up to 4ppm
> I also added new heater to bring the temperature to 84-85F
> 
> ...


Sounds like you are on the right track - good luck.


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## paronaram (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi,

Looks like my cycling happen allot quicker then I thought. :dancing: A little less then a 2 weeks.
Ammonia from initial 6-7ppm dropped to 2ppm overnight, and next day evening was 0.
2 days later I added 2 drops of Ammonia (it brought initial readings to 2-3ppm) and it came back to 0 overnight.

Now, in all guides and howto's it is recommended after cycle is done, "perform 90% WC"
My question is, can I just use gardening hose to fill the tank back? And threat the water w/prime,
warm it up to 78-79F, and in the next day add the fish.

Or water need to be treated and aged outside of the tank?

Thanks!


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

Check Nitrites. They Also have to go to zero.

Yes to your hose question. Though I would do it in the morning of the day I got the fish.


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## jhayes6405 (May 1, 2009)

Absolutely, I use my garden hose all the time to fill tanks. If you use Prime, just dump about double what the bottle says to use, and fill er up. Aging water is for people that don't use water conditioner, but Prime is quite literally a product of the Gods!


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## paronaram (Oct 13, 2009)

GoofBoy said:


> Check Nitrites. They Also have to go to zero.
> 
> Yes to your hose question. Though I would do it in the morning of the day I got the fish.


I have about 10 ppm Nitrites reading on my API test kit.
How long it normally takes to lower it to 0?

Thanks!


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## paronaram (Oct 13, 2009)

jhayes6405 said:


> Absolutely, I use my garden hose all the time to fill tanks. If you use Prime, just dump about double what the bottle says to use, and fill er up. Aging water is for people that don't use water conditioner, but Prime is quite literally a product of the Gods!


Thanks!


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

paronaram said:


> GoofBoy said:
> 
> 
> > Check Nitrites. They Also have to go to zero.
> ...


As long as it takes - I would guess week or so - keep adding ammonia every day until they are zero. Then keep adding it until the morning you add fish. That is when you do the big water change.


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## paronaram (Oct 13, 2009)

Thanks!

I could not wait any longer :roll: 
So I add the fish last night.

Following has been added to my newly build tank:
Altolamprologus Compressicep Lufubu " Red " 2 - http://www.bigskycichlids.com/A_compressiceps_lufubu.htmHERE
Paracyprichromis Nigripinnis "neon" 5 - http://www.bigskycichlids.com/Paracyp_nigripinnis.htm HERE

I am still looking for 4 or 5 Lamprologus ocellatus "gold" - anybody know where can I find any?

Now, here what I find out for past 12 hours. The fish is not happy about stream of water from the filter. I have EHEIM 2213, and spray bar is located right bellow the water level, and it's pointing right to the opposite wall[/url]. Fish can not swim across the tank. They start swimming (not all of them, Compressicep stays in the caves) as soon as I stop the filter. I did slow the stream by turning about 10-15 degree quick release valve. But I am not sure, if it's ok to do that...

Thanks!

Water parameters:
T- 80F
pH - 8.8
gH - can not be tested, to high
kH - can not be tested, to high
NH3 - 0
Nitrates - >5ppm


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## paronaram (Oct 13, 2009)

paronaram said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I could not wait any longer :roll:
> So I add the fish last night.
> ...


T


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## paronaram (Oct 13, 2009)

paronaram said:


> paronaram said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks!
> ...


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## paronaram (Oct 13, 2009)

Sorry, All.
something going on with posting massages ...

Here is my original reply post:
--------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks!

I could not wait any longer Eye Roll
So I add the fish last night.

Following has been added to my newly build tank:
Altolamprologus Compressicep Lufubu " Red " 2
Paracyprichromis Nigripinnis "neon" 5

I am still looking for 4 or 5 Lamprologus ocellatus "gold" - anybody know where can I find any?

Now, here what I find out for past 12 hours. The fish is not happy about stream of water from the filter. I have EHEIM 2213, and spray bar is located right bellow the water level, and it's pointing right to the opposite wall[/url]. Fish can not swim across the tank. They start swimming (not all of them, Compressicep stays in the caves) as soon as I stop the filter. I did slow the stream by turning about 10-15 degree quick release valve. But I am not sure, if it's ok to do that...

Thanks!

Water parameters:
T- 80F
pH - 8.8
gH - can not be tested, to high
kH - can not be tested, to high
NH3 - 0
Nitrates - >5ppm


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

Point the output stream toward the surface to make waves/ripples - the waves/ripples aerate the tank. They don't need to make an audible splash just agitate the surface pretty good.

Tangs will take up to 2 weeks to become comfortable, so set it and forget it. - do not re-aquascape everyday, change fillter bar locations/angles, etc.

Keep up on the water changes!

Good Luck.


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## paronaram (Oct 13, 2009)

Hello,

Something like this:










Thanks for the tip! :thumb: 
Allot less stream, but I think it's still moves/push Paracyprichromis Nigripinnis "neon" around, but they find spots to hide from it ... This is only 3 small fish I am talking about, rest of my fish is hiding! I was worrying about that they scared and stressed.
So I setup a camera to motor the tank from a different room 8) 
And did see both Altolamprologus Compressicep came out and look for food. I left some brine shrimps by their rocks, and they very carefully, came out grab the shrimp, and hide back.

I am still unaccounted 2 fish (Paracyp)!  I think they are OK (I am hopping) I did see all 5 once.

And here is the picture of my tank:










Not finished, trying not to bother fish for 2-3 weeks :wink:

Very, very picky eaters! I ordered some NLS Cichlid Formula/1mm will see.


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

paronaram said:


> Hello,
> 
> Something like this:
> 
> ...


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## jhayes6405 (May 1, 2009)

GoofBoy said:


> Seems to work best for the ones with smaller mouths - Cyps, Multies, Julies and fry in general.


X2 on that one. All my younglings ate it including my little Occies, they ate it right up (before they were eaten up  )

When my Caudopunct spawned, i crushed up NLS into a powder and fed that way. I just took a little pinch, and rubbed it in between my fingers in front of their shell. It kind of forms a cloud of food that they are able to eat.


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## paronaram (Oct 13, 2009)

Oh well, I will crash a little, and see ... I hope they will like that better then brine shrimp.
First time in my life I see fish ignores brine shrimp!  
All tho they eat OK Tetra Spirulina Flakes (I found some leftovers from experiments trying to raise Amano shrimp larva)

Do you think 1mm is to big for Altolamprologus Compressicep too?
Male was doing some extensive digging around main rock, to hide better... (Only in this hobby, you pay top $$$ for something that you not going to see allot :wink: ) anyway, and when he was performing for a second he looked like a excavator !!! I never realize that this mouth can be open that wide ... So I think 1mm should be fine, but then again ...

One more question: Why is NLS food so expensive? Any ideas ... I think they need to advertise better, specially if they have a product that works.


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

paronaram said:


> Oh well, I will crash a little, and see ... I hope they will like that better then brine shrimp.
> First time in my life I see fish ignores brine shrimp!
> All tho they eat OK Tetra Spirulina Flakes (I found some leftovers from experiments trying to raise Amano shrimp larva)
> 
> ...


The Alto will be fine with 1.0mm food. The smaller food is harder to overfeed as each piece is so much smaller.

NLS is very concentrated - just a couple of pellets per fish is all you really need a couple of times a day. So it can go a long way.

Good Luck.


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## paronaram (Oct 13, 2009)

Hello.

1mm NLS came in. As it been predicted Alto have no problem with it, but Parasyp swims around, but does not even touching it ... O well I'll continue with Spirulina flakes.

So today I received 6 Ocellatus Blue. And I did very big mistake!!!  
I float the bag with fish in the tank for 30min, so temp was OK, but I did not check the pH!!!
Apperently fish came in pH7.4 and I have 8.6 ... All I hear that Tang fish need very high pH ... so did not even think about it ...

Do you guys think I may lose all of them? 
They seat on the bottom, near shells ... sometimes one of them swims towards rocks, and get chased by Alto.

So far 2 hours past maybe it's to early to say ...

Thanks!


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## jhayes6405 (May 1, 2009)

I don't think you will have a problem. I never test the pH of the water my fish come in. The water they come in is not a clear indicator of the pH they were housed in however long your breeder/importer housed them in it. Usually fish are kept NPO for a couple days to make sure they don't poo in the water during transport. There will be some poo though, thus altering the pH as well as ammonia in their little bag. Couple that with inadequate gas exchanges, no natural oxygen additions, things like that. All of which will combine to alter the chemical balance of the water you recieved your fish in. Not to mention, some people add fish sleep medicine and artificial oxygen adders to the bags.

As you will see from some on this site, the stability of your pH is more important than what the pH actually is. Yes, Lake Tanganyika has extremely high pH. Although, unless you fish are wild caught, chances are they have lived in water with a lower pH than the lake.

Also, your paracyps will eat the NLS. Everything eats NLS!


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## paronaram (Oct 13, 2009)

Thank you! for reply!
Very helpful, as ALWAYS!

I measured pH because when I introduced newly arrived fish to the tank, they change the color and then fade to very, very light yellow almost transparent color, and they did not look healthy at all (this is a first time I am dealing with Ocellatus). I got scared, maybe a little panic :-? (get's a little pricey when you order fish online, so I want to make sure that I have no casualty) did not know where exactly I make a mistake, so I start measuring water parameters just to see where is it off. NO3 was a little high, but I understand fish was in the bag for 2 days, temp was OK, so the only thing I measure and it was WAY off the pH ... then I dropped all my water testing, and start typing here 

I believe fish is tank raised.
The rest of my fish in this tank came from breeder who keeps all his fish in high pH and hardens. So I did my reading on Ocellatus, and I find out that they will do just fine in high pH.
And I think they did 8)

Two updates wile I was typing this post:
5 out of 6 doing well !!! (I hope 6 is fine, I don't see him) I have about 4 shells and it's looks like they are fighting for them ...
How many shells would you add for 6 Ocellatus ?
About an hour ago I tried to feed them and when Ocellatus starts eating, Paracyps joins the party! 

Thanks!


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## jhayes6405 (May 1, 2009)

I had some little 1" Occie Golds until I foolishly added some WC Calvus to their tank. It didnt take long!  
As far as shell #s, I would say the more the better. After a while you will see what shells they want and what ones they have no interest in. You can remove the ones they dont use if you dont like the look of them for some reason. With the 6 Occies I had, it took a few months before I knew what shells were not gonna get used. They will have their own little hierarchy between themselves it seems, especially when they are young. I had no idea what ones I had were male or female, only the two slightly larger ones fought back and forth for domination with no real winner. 
So, long story short, I would say scatter about 20 ish shells around and watch them. They are pretty entertaining.


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## paronaram (Oct 13, 2009)

Now, can you please confirm:
WC Calvus and Altolamprologus Comprressicep Red are two different species right?
I mean they look very a like, but I'm hopping they maybe a different ... The pair that I have are small (aprox. size of 50c coin + fin) Here in PROFILES section I read "horror" story, that this fish is not "compatible" with shelly's ... I took me allot of time, effort and money ... to get this Blue Ocellatus 

I will scatter with more shell tomorrow morning. Thanks!


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## jhayes6405 (May 1, 2009)

Calvus and Comps are closely related enough that they can cross breed (or so I have heard), Same Genus, different Species.

As far as compatibility, I have only been keeping Tangs for roughly 9 months, so I don't know what will happen when everyone is all grown up. Keep in mind though, my Occies were 1" at most and the Calvus were wild caught around 4-5". I do know that Altos grow slower than almost any other Tang, so the Occies should be full grown before the Altos can do any harm. Some others here with more experience should be able to help more.


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

jhayes6405 said:


> Calvus and Comps are closely related enough that they can cross breed (or so I have heard), Same Genus, different Species.
> 
> As far as compatibility, I have only been keeping Tangs for roughly 9 months, so I don't know what will happen when everyone is all grown up. Keep in mind though, my Occies were 1" at most and the Calvus were wild caught around 4-5". I do know that Altos grow slower than almost any other Tang, so the Occies should be full grown before the Altos can do any harm. Some others here with more experience should be able to help more.


They will be fine together - I have had Cavlus for a year and a half now - bought around the size you have and the largest is a shade over 3in - slow growing does not begin to describe them.


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## paronaram (Oct 13, 2009)

Hello All!

My all N.Ocellatus "blue" are all recovered from shipping  and stress !!!
All 6 fishes are occupying middle of my tank with 9 shells. Extremely active, all other fishes not interfering with them at all. Although one of the Alto's sometimes tries to still the food, but on the same token he (she) is very shy ... No aggression, can not be seen so far

The only problem that I have right now is that I have a missing Paracyp :? 
He was gone for quite sometime, and I don't know or he was eaten or died from hmm natural causes I guess ...

My next item is to add a digital pH meter, for continues pH measuring :roll: .
I found one BECKMAN lab pH/Temp meter very cheep, and it came with no probe, so I purchased generic probe, will see how this will work together

Thanks.


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

paronaram said:


> My next item is to add a digital pH meter, for continues pH measuring :roll:.


You really don't need one. Stable pH is way, way, way, way, more important than exactly matching the lake.

Get in a stable consistent water changing routine and have the pH up above 7.6 or so and they will be just fine.

Glad to hear the Occies are doing well.


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## paronaram (Oct 13, 2009)

Yea, you are correct ... I don't need this pH meter. I will keep it on the side, in case I get my planted tank going again 

Question on existing setup.
I added 6 n.ocellatus not that long ago, and they all doing very good in terms of health and activity. The problem is that one of the male's dominating entire tank  
Any shell I add, he tries to take over, and chases rest away. Sometimes he stays with one (once I even sow him with 2) but only for few hours, and he start chasing all over again. Anyway to slow this guy down?

Paracyp is getting better and better. Less shy, more active. But my problem is with feeding them.
Crashing NLS 1mm, not a good idea, it pollutes my tank. They do eat some of it, but most of the crashed food stays on the bottom. Spirulina flakes makes the same result.
The only thing that works is live brine shrimp, but it requires allot of work !
Unless someone knows how to keep newly hatched brine shrimp alive for at least one more day.
So I was thinking to get NLS .5mm grow formula. Does anybody knows where can I get it from?
I need a good online store. I did general search, and some stores did came up, but I never heard of them.

Thanks.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Take a look at the Reviews section of Cichlid-forum under online vendors. Most of them sell NLS Grow. If your fish are too small for regular NLS it should work.


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## paronaram (Oct 13, 2009)

Thanks, I was able to find very nice vendor, with variety of NLS products.

Did today water parameters reading, all looks good except pH, it's dropping! 
Today I have it 8.2 was 8.6+
I think tank is getting more established and like any other my tanks pH drops. It's just with other tanks low pH is OK, but with my Tang setup, I think it's no go :-? 
Our tap is soft, so I buffer it with mix of Epsom+Baking soda+Salt
Can I just add more baking soda when I do my next wc to bring my pH up?

Thanks.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

8.2 is fine for Tangs, but you do want to keep it stable. pH drops with excess organics, so what is your nitrate?

You definitely have to add the baking soda and epsom salt (or whatever mixture you decided on) with every water change so the water you add has the same pH you want in the tank, and you need to do water changes often enough so the drop is negligible.

You don't want to change pH more than 0.2 with any water change.


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## paronaram (Oct 13, 2009)

Hello,

I just did a water test, before wc:
Nitrate - 10ppm
pH - 8.2

yes nitrate is a little high, use to be 5.
I will cut the feeding down ... the problem is that some fish does not eat the right food, so I am experimenting by crashing flakes etc. So it maybe making an excessive amount of uneaten food ...
Still waiting for NLS 0.5mm.

I do my 20% wc twice a week. And today I added a little more of my buffering solution.
Will do one more test in hour or two

Thanks.


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## alexlee04 (Jul 19, 2009)

I use the same buffering mixture. My city filters its water using a system similar to reverse osmosis so it comes out of the tap really soft and at a ph of about 7.2.

I just want to make sure you know that baking soda will only raise your ph to 8.2 never any higher no matter how much you add. To get it higher you would need to use a different buffer. I keep only tangs and all my tanks have a ph of 8.2. They are all healthy and breeding.

A nitrate reading of 10ppm is not bad at all. People have different opinions about how much is too much but the bottom line is you will always have nitrates in an established tank.

It sounds like you are over thinking your tank. I was the same way until recently I was out of town for two months and my sister took care of my fish. She did no water changes and I'm sure she over feed. When I came back I was expecting the worst until I scraped away the algae and saw that not only was every fish alive and well but my daffodil brichardi, multies, and altolamps had all spawned. It was like all they needed was me to leave them alone. :lol:

Sorry for the long post. Your tank looks very nice. I like your aquascaping. 
Good luck! :thumb:


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## paronaram (Oct 13, 2009)

Thanks for reply!

I stopped my paranoid water testing, and all I do is twice a week wc, about 20~30% 8) 
I add my buffering dry mix, and trying not to overfeed my fish.

I lost 2 paracyp  one got choked, that is the only thing I can think of ... 1mm NLS was to big for him, and he always trying to get one. I did crush some to feed him and other fish, but fish always ignore that crash NLS. Order of .5mm NLS pallets finally (I can't win with ordering from West Coast, 2-3 weeks delivery time) came in, and all fishes are fine.
Second paracyp juvenile was extremely nosy, constantly swims towards to my occellatus (male) and I have see few time that fish was chasing him, and tearing small pices from his fins ...
Oh well I found little guy dead, with no fins at all, including tail  half of it was gone.

Rest of my fish are doing well.


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## paronaram (Oct 13, 2009)

Hello,

I noticed today that I have some small very strange white particles floating all over my tank.
I have seen them before, but it was not much, so I never payed attention.
Today my entire tank was covered! Looks like snow fall.
I noticed that all this stuff came from filter, I have 2213
In tropical setup I think all this get's eaten by fish, but Tangs are ignoring it ... (unless I have something else in this setup)

Does anybody seen this before? And How can I clean it ... It looks like white "algae" free "swimming" all over my tank, when I look closer, all tubing and spray bar are covered from inside with this stuff.

Thanks.

PS Fish is OK.


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