# leveling a 180 gallon tank



## JOHN/VAL (Aug 4, 2011)

we are setting up our 180 gallon tank, old style 5/8" glass- tank in basement- custom made steel stand that is sqaure and level.

Our basement floor is not level as my two other tanks 90/120 need to be worked on to level out.

My question : how close to perfect level to we have to be ? it is out by 1 mm length wise and same side to side.

you can see a slight difference in the water level- we have been using a 2 ton jack to lift and put shims under stand.

will this put to much pressue on one side of tank and could it cause problems.(if it is not perfectly level)

thanks

John/Val


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## JOHN/VAL (Aug 4, 2011)

also 1" sheet of plywood and 2" of foam under tank


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## Morpheen (Jul 21, 2010)

I'm no expert but 1mm difference, especially on the long edge, seems pretty **** close to me.


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## 748johnd (Jun 30, 2007)

I would not want to put foam under the tank because it could put upward pressure on the glass bottom. You only need support on the rim. If it was an acrylic tank that would be different. I agree with Morpheen that 1mm on the long edge is very close to being level.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

748johnd said:


> I would not want to put foam under the tank because it could put upward pressure on the glass bottom. You only need support on the rim. If it was an acrylic tank that would be different. I agree with Morpheen that 1mm on the long edge is very close to being level.


You can put foam under the tank but it MUST extend to the edge of the trim meaning it can't just be under the glass. This can be important if using a custom stand that is not perfect straight across the span of the stand where the trim touches the stand. I found this out the hard way.

I bought a 240g and put it on a custom stand and the manufacturer(glass cages) told me that there must be a pad under the tank extending to the edge of the trim or it could crack. I didn't listen and it cracked. Thankfully he fixed it for free if I drove it to tennessee and living in arkansas it wasn't that big a deal.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

Agree with razorback re: the foam. Make sure it is the rigid foam insulation, and not the open cell white stuff. The white stuff will compress under the trim, making the rest of it touch the bottom of the tank (if it's thick enough). Are you sure it's 1mm? that's less than half of a 16th.


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## TonyRG (May 28, 2012)

13razorbackfan said:


> 748johnd said:
> 
> 
> > I would not want to put foam under the tank because it could put upward pressure on the glass bottom. You only need support on the rim. If it was an acrylic tank that would be different. I agree with Morpheen that 1mm on the long edge is very close to being level.
> ...


Hay Razorback I have seen other posts where ridgid foam was recomended, how thick whas the foam you used?


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## bbortko (Nov 20, 2011)

Foam is primarily for acrylic tanks.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

TonyRG said:


> 13razorbackfan said:
> 
> 
> > 748johnd said:
> ...


1" I think is what I used the last time.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Foam does NOT level tanks. It can actually make the problem worse. Foam is used to deal with any imperfections in the stand where the tank sits. A very thin piece is best. If the tank stand is good, then no reason to use it.

No way that you should be able to see a 1mm difference. It's got to be out more than that. But, if you can fill to above the trim line and keep it there, you're fine. All tanks are slightly out of level. No one can level a tank perfectly. It's an appearance issue only unless extreme, and no one would set one up that way.

Why a two ton jack? Is this tank full of water? If so, you should not be trying to level it. This should only be done when empty of water. Use wood shims between stand and floor and focus on the corners of the stand. Make sure the tank does not wobble corner to corner. This has to be done when the tank is empty. Very risky to fiddle with this when full of water. Just drive the shims under with a hammer. Score with a razor and snap them off. You can add some in the centers also, but be careful not to throw things off when adding them. Just snug them up and snap them off. Do those last.


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## JOHN/VAL (Aug 4, 2011)

thanks for all the replies: what an amazing forum- the foam is 1" past the glass edge- all the way around.

i bought wooden shims and worked on tank, it is now perfectly level- full of water -gravel-rocks and ready to go.

my 2 other tanks are African Cichlids- might go with Oscars

Again thanks


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

I must take exception to a few statements above. You can level a tank perfectly, that is to say within a few thousands of an inch. White foam will not compress to the point of hitting the bottom when used beneath a rimmed tank (in my experience). You can support the bottom of the tank with foam, which is what is done with rimless tanks (like the 5 I have), and this will make it more resistant to breakage if something such as a rock were to tumble down on to it.While foam won't help leveling, it does absorb minor or even fairly large imperfections. The risk with having a tank on a stand that isn't levelled comes from the possibility that the tank will torque, or twist which puts strain on the structure and the individual panes. This would be visible as one corner being higher or lower than the others. My experience with metal stands (including building them), is that they are seldom flat and there is often a gap beneath the centre portion of the tank. This is from the nature of the material (steel is never straight) and the effects of welding on the steel, which causes warping and pulling at the joints.
The steel stands I built have leveling screws to facilitate, levelling, and if I were to use shims between concrete and a steel stand, the shims would be metal.


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## 748johnd (Jun 30, 2007)

Sorry BillD, but I disagree with you. The poster mentioned 2-inch foam and a 180-gallon tank will compress it enough to put pressure on the bottom glass. Even one inch foam would. Foam is not necessary under tanks with rims. The rims support the tank.


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## JOHN/VAL (Aug 4, 2011)

my 180 is a rimless tank


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> You can level a tank perfectly, that is to say within a few thousands of an inch.


Then it's not perfect. You missed my point which was there's a point of 'good enough' and that's as good as you'll get. Don't go crazy trying to get within a few thousands of an inch, if you even could with what tools, levels you have lying around. There's no need. A simple bubble level that gets it close is ok, and there'll be no risk to the tank.



> The risk with having a tank on a stand that isn't levelled comes from the possibility that the tank will torque, or twist which puts strain on the structure and the individual panes.


Leveling and torque are two entirely different things. Out of level has nothing to do with torquing, nor does it cause it. I spoke of avoiding corner to corner wobble. We keep having this same conversation, Bill.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Why 1" foam? Seems to be the thing. Are your stands that bad? I use a thin layer of foam (1/8") when I build 2x4 racks, but otherwise, no. Commercial stands should not require foam under the tank.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

prov356 said:


> Why 1" foam? Seems to be the thing. Are your stands that bad? I use a thin layer of foam (1/8") when I build 2x4 racks, but otherwise, no. Commercial stands should not require foam under the tank.


Well...the last time I did it I used 1" because it was a 240g and that was what the manufacturer(glass cages) recommended. So I would imagine a thinner piece would work on a smaller tank but not for sure. The only thing I do know for a fact is this....he recommended it, I didn't do it, bottom glass cracked. I then had him repair the tank, used the 1" foam....no issues. When I drove the tank to tennessee(about 5 hrs) to have him fix it he showed me why it cracked. He showed me where I probably had some places in my DIY stand where the boards under the trim were probably not perfectly straight or level with each other. He said that causes binding and twisting on the glass when filled with water. He said it may not crack right away or may not crack at all but he said he has a greater chance to leak if nothing else as time goes by.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

748johnd said:


> Sorry BillD, but I disagree with you. The poster mentioned 2-inch foam and a 180-gallon tank will compress it enough to put pressure on the bottom glass. Even one inch foam would. Foam is not necessary under tanks with rims. The rims support the tank.


You are assuming the stand is making equal contact with the trim all the way around the tank. If so then ok. The problem arises when people build DIY stands and there is a greater chance of imperfections than one built in a factory where these things are built every day. No need for foam when buying a stand straight from the manufacturer.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

BillD said:


> I must take exception to a few statements above. You can level a tank perfectly, that is to say within a few thousands of an inch. White foam will not compress to the point of hitting the bottom when used beneath a rimmed tank (in my experience). You can support the bottom of the tank with foam, which is what is done with rimless tanks (like the 5 I have), and this will make it more resistant to breakage if something such as a rock were to tumble down on to it.While foam won't help leveling, it does absorb minor or even fairly large imperfections. The risk with having a tank on a stand that isn't levelled comes from the possibility that the tank will torque, or twist which puts strain on the structure and the individual panes. This would be visible as one corner being higher or lower than the others. My experience with metal stands (including building them), is that they are seldom flat and there is often a gap beneath the centre portion of the tank. This is from the nature of the material (steel is never straight) and the effects of welding on the steel, which causes warping and pulling at the joints.
> The steel stands I built have leveling screws to facilitate, levelling, and if I were to use shims between concrete and a steel stand, the shims would be metal.


Agreed...this is exactly what the manufacturer showed and told me in person. He said basically exactly the same thing.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

PS....prov356 I do agree about the foam not leveling the tank....and I also agree that foam is certainly not required for commercial stands.

I am not trying to create an argument or debate. Just passing on my personal experiences when I had a large tank crack on a DIY stand where I didn't head the word of the manufacturer.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

13razorbackfan said:


> PS....prov356 I do agree about the foam not leveling the tank....and I also agree that foam is certainly not required for commercial stands.
> 
> I am not trying to create an argument or debate. Just passing on my personal experiences when I had a large tank crack on a DIY stand where I didn't head the word of the manufacturer.


And also they recommend 3/4" foam not 1". So I probably overdid it with 1".

_All aquariums must be set up on commercially manufactured stands only. A sheet of 3/4" Styrofoam (reaching completely side-to-side and front-to-back) must be placed between the tank and the surface of the stand._

http://www.glasscages.com/?sAction=AqWarranty

I was very happy they fixed it for free. He was a very nice guy and easy to work with.

PS...doesn't give you long to edit posts before locking them out. Sorry about all the consecutive posts.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> He showed me where I probably had some places in my DIY stand where the boards under the trim were probably not perfectly straight or level with each other. He said that causes binding and twisting on the glass when filled with water. He said it may not crack right away or may not crack at all but he said he has a greater chance to leak if nothing else as time goes by.


That's torquing, or twisting of the tank from lack of proper corner support.



> I am not trying to create an argument or debate. Just passing on my personal experiences when I had a large tank crack on a DIY stand where I didn't head the word of the manufacturer.


We're not in disagreement about imperfections in the stand possibly causing torquing, just the thickness of the foam required to compensate. 3/4" is overkill. They're recommending overkill, which is understandable.

I plane my DIY stands/racks so there's no corner to corner wobble, then add 1/8" of foam. The better the stand, the less foam needed.

Gaps along the long edge are NOT a problem. It's the corner support that's important.

Keep in mind that there are other tank manufacturers that do not make this same recommendation for the use of foam. But, the one I'm thinking of makes stands, and I believe require you to use them before they'll honor the warranty. It's all very logical stuff.



> PS...doesn't give you long to edit posts before locking them out. Sorry about all the consecutive posts.


Use the preview button.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

prov356 said:


> > He showed me where I probably had some places in my DIY stand where the boards under the trim were probably not perfectly straight or level with each other. He said that causes binding and twisting on the glass when filled with water. He said it may not crack right away or may not crack at all but he said he has a greater chance to leak if nothing else as time goes by.
> 
> 
> That's torquing, or twisting of the tank from lack of proper corner support.
> ...


This all sounds reasonable to me. I am not an engineer so I just pass on what I was told but I think you are right that 3/4" is probably a little much. It could depend on the weight or size of the tank although I don't know for sure.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

I am lazy and not going to read all the way back through this entire thread to find out, but are we discussing the merits of foam underlayment on a flat glass/acrylic tank, or a glass tank with a supportive rim around the bottom?

Obviously there are two entirely different approaches depending on the type of tank...


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

cantrell00 said:


> I am lazy and not going to read all the way back through this entire thread to find out, but are we discussing the merits of foam underlayment on a flat glass/acrylic tank, or a glass tank with a supportive rim around the bottom?
> 
> Obviously there are two entirely different approaches depending on the type of tank...


Well, we've sort of strayed. The original question was about whether it was necessary to level a tank that was going into a basement. We'll assume glass with rim, since I don't think that was stated. The foam thing came up, as it often does.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

prov356 said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> > I am lazy and not going to read all the way back through this entire thread to find out, but are we discussing the merits of foam underlayment on a flat glass/acrylic tank, or a glass tank with a supportive rim around the bottom?
> ...


Yeah...I think he said it was a 180g standard glass bottom with trim but a rimless top on a custom iron stand.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

prov356 said:


> Gaps along the long edge are NOT a problem. It's the corner support that's important.


i am going to disagree with this . While it is correct that a tank can be supported by the four corners, or just the ends, I think it is a bad idea. While the structure of the tank may be able to take it, it is under stress.If you support the bottom, along it's entire perimeter, or totally across the bottom plate, you remove the bottom from the equation. The silicone now only has to hold the vertical pieces to the bottom against forces in only one direction, and the bottom doesn't have to carry any of the weight.. Somewhere there is a photo thread of a 16' tank build, where the bottom is made up of 2 or three pieces butted together and capped with a narrow strip of glass. This is possible because the entire bottom is supported by the stand.
As far as thickness of the styro goes, 3/4" is an easily found thickness and strong enough to be easily used. The tank will barely dent it, but it will absorb a 3/8" pebble.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

BillD said:


> prov356 said:
> 
> 
> > Gaps along the long edge are NOT a problem. It's the corner support that's important.
> ...


I'll clarify. Support the corners to avoid twisting of the tank, and don't go crazy trying to fill in every gap along the edges. I've seen questions about that here at CF and that's what I was considering in my response. Long tanks can benefit from some support along the long edge. Small tanks, don't bother. This info I received in response to the 'foam' question that I posed to well known tank manufacturer some time back. They called the placement of foam under a tank a 'hobbyist trick' that shouldn't be necessary.



> Somewhere there is a photo thread of a 16' tank build, where the bottom is made up of 2 or three pieces butted together and capped with a narrow strip of glass. This is possible because the entire bottom is supported by the stand.


Yeah, I'd support that along the entire length too, not just the corners. Pretty extreme example though isn't it?



> As far as thickness of the styro goes, 3/4" is an easily found thickness and strong enough to be easily used. The tank will barely dent it, but it will absorb a 3/8" pebble.


As we said, case by case and it depends on the stand. If you have 3/8" irregularities, then yes, you'll need either thick styro or a better stand.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

BillD said:


> prov356 said:
> 
> 
> > Gaps along the long edge are NOT a problem. It's the corner support that's important.
> ...


The only situation where this logic would apply is in the example you gave re: the 16' long tank composed of a paneled bottom of multiple panes of glass. On the typical glass aquarium of standard length, all that is needed to place and support the aquarium safely is support at the 4 corners and it also be level. The end.

Are we talking bout an


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

cantrell00 said:


> BillD said:
> 
> 
> > prov356 said:
> ...


I also meant to say that the bottom pane is designed to support the weight of all the water in the tank + the tank itself. Why anyone would assume that placing support (styrofoam) under the pane beyond the corners would actually help matters seems quite illogical to me.

You could make the argument that any support other than at the corners could actually compromise the bottom pane and put the tank at structural risk.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

cantrell00 said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> > BillDGaps along the long edge are NOT a problem. It's the corner support that's important.
> ...


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Shock absorber? Earthquake zone?


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

Well, lets just say I'm not very dainty.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

Shock absorbing is something that I wouldn't have considered 15 years ago, but two minor earthquakes, are making me rethink it. As far as supporting the glass all the way, goes, it may be more than necessary, but not harmful. Glass is very hard and only slightly flexible. Glass does not break easily with out flexing. If you support the glass so it can't flex, it is unlikely to break, even if hit. 
The reality is that if a tank is on a flat surface, with the bottom evenly supported, it will be fine even if it isn't level. Tanks may have some flex in them, especially suspended bottom constructions ( a method used to allow for more torquing), and will sit flat on a stand that is low or high in one corner. The resulting torques may or may not damage the tank, but it will still be there. The reality is that most tank failures can be attributed to user error, and all glass tanks are a remarkable discovery, that can withstand a significant amount of abuse.That does not mean we should take a cavalier attitude to their placement.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

prov356 said:


> Shock absorber? Earthquake zone?


LOL


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

BillD said:


> Shock absorbing is something that I wouldn't have considered 15 years ago, but two minor earthquakes, are making me rethink it. As far as supporting the glass all the way, goes, it may be more than necessary, but not harmful. Glass is very hard and only slightly flexible. Glass does not break easily with out flexing. If you support the glass so it can't flex, it is unlikely to break, even if hit.
> The reality is that if a tank is on a flat surface, with the bottom evenly supported, it will be fine even if it isn't level. Tanks may have some flex in them, especially suspended bottom constructions ( a method used to allow for more torquing), and will sit flat on a stand that is low or high in one corner. The resulting torques may or may not damage the tank, but it will still be there. The reality is that most tank failures can be attributed to user error, and all glass tanks are a remarkable discovery, that can withstand a significant amount of abuse.That does not mean we should take a cavalier attitude to their placement.


No, the reality is, the only support that is required is at the corners and the use of styrofoam will not enhance the support of the tank and if used incorrectly, could actually compromise the bottom pane. It really is that simple.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

cantrell00 said:


> BillD said:
> 
> 
> > Shock absorbing is something that I wouldn't have considered 15 years ago, but two minor earthquakes, are making me rethink it. As far as supporting the glass all the way, goes, it may be more than necessary, but not harmful. Glass is very hard and only slightly flexible. Glass does not break easily with out flexing. If you support the glass so it can't flex, it is unlikely to break, even if hit.
> ...


Perhaps you should look at how large custom tanks are built. They sit on a solid surface, with styrofoam, across the entire bottom.So, it really isn't that simple. If you only support the tank in four corners, those four corners better be in the same plane. If the tank is total supported around the perimeter, or across the bottom it doesn't need to be level, just flat (in terms of safe guarding the structure of the tank).
There are two considerations with an all glass tank. One is fracture of a pane, and the other is failure of a seam. Again, the structural integrity of a properly manufactured tank of glass and silicone, is quite remarkable, but I personally, don't see a point in pushing it to it's limits, when it is easy not to. You can choose to do whatever you please.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

BillD said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> > BillD said:
> ...


I agree.....I was told by the manufacturer to use a 3/4" thick pad...I did not and the bottom pane cracked. I had it repaired, put down the pad and it never cracked or leaked. This was a large tank..240g so I have no idea if that was a factor or not. Maybe the tank didn't touch all 4 corners perfectly or maybe it was a dip in the middle of the stand that caused it. I just don't know. Since then when using a DIY stand I subscribe to using a pad. Better safe than sorry.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

BillD said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> > BillD said:
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I agree if you are talking about a flat bottom, rimless, glass aquarium. If the aquarium is supported with a rim on the bottom, the best wat to support it is at the corners. This is the best way to insure that the tanks entire weight is distributed evenly along the bottom pane of glass. This is true, regardless the size of the aquarium. It is that simple.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

See my reply to bill. If glass cages tanks don't have an elevated floor, then i can see why they would advise the use of a styro pad.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

He's even arguing with himself now. LOL, as the kids say.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Who?


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