# Fish scales are coming off



## Fancy (Sep 6, 2011)

Ever since I turned the temp to 86 degrees and added salt my fish are acting extremely weird. They seem to be nibbling on each other and rubbing against the rocks. Half of them have missing scales. How long will it take to grow back? they look horrible like theyve been beaten up but there is no aggression in the tank.

They only started looking like this when I turned up the heat and added salt 3 days ago. The picture is of one of my fish who has it really bad. I still don't know what kind of fish he is...interruptus??


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

They do look like they have been beaten up and their fins are shredded. Often aggression is not witnessed. What species and genders do you have in the tank and what are the dimensions of the tank?

It takes about a month for a fish to regrow fins and scales but first the damage has to stop.


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## Fancy (Sep 6, 2011)

Cookie cutter 55g, yellow labs, ice blue zebra, acei, socolofi, and him. He's the biggest in the tank I also forgot to mention I'm treating for ich. Its like he's allowing others to nibble on him he'll shake a little when they come near and they nibble on him. He doesnt even swim away the nibbler swims away after a few seconds. it's just really weird behavior. Do you think since I added salt it's irritating him? He flashes alot also. I changed 30% of the water and added the salt I took out still, nothing changed.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't see the cookie cutter you are referring to?

I'd reduce the number of species and increase the number of females.

Maybe just the labs, greshakei (ice blue) and socolofi?

I think acei are too big for a 55G most often. And I don't think I would put Melanochromis in a 55G.

So now how to get the fish you will remove healed up so you can take them back to the LFS? Hospital tanks with dividers?

Are you sure they have ich? Yes the salt can be irritating but so can the ich.

Those white places on your fish have gone beyond ich however...either aggression or a secondary illness. Are any of the spots fuzzy?


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## chris350 (Jul 9, 2008)

86 degrees? aint that a bit warm?


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## Fancy (Sep 6, 2011)

Yes I am 100% sure they have ich, *** had my fish for a while now and they were happy until a few days ago when I found ich. I'm currently having a 700g tank built in my home as a room divider and most of the fish I have are juvenile. Anyways Your steering far away from what my concern is. The fish are NOT beating each other up. Some of them are acting a weird way bt letting other other fish nibble on him. I am not returning them anywhere, I got them so they are my responsibility.

Yes 86 is warm but if you read the article about getting rid of ich you will see that I'm only trying to do just that, get rid of them.


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## juststayinthecave (Dec 23, 2010)

I had two male Lab. Trewevasea that would take turns nibbling on each others sides. The scales would fly off and the other fish would nibble on them. It was as if they were going at it mano a mano till one gave up. I split them up before they killed each other. There condition looked much like your fish. Just mentioning this to confrm I've seen the behaviour below and yes it's quite disturbing.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Are you 100% positive you have ICH? What type of salt did you use? When I tried to leave my lights on with high temps my cichlids were VERY aggressive and I have peacocks and haps. I now know that I have a female in their and I think the high temps only escalated the problems. I had to turn off all my lights and leave my back bedroom(where my tank sits) in virtual complete darkness until I was done treating for ICH.

Have you done daily water changes? How much salt have you been adding? Are you pre-dissolving it?

I can tell you one thing.....if your fish are not attacking each other and the they look that rough just from flashing then something else is wrong. Some of those fish look really beat up. That one looks like he is almost totally missing a gill fin. You probably have some sort of secondary infection brought upon by the ICH.

Make sure to do your daily water changes and add back in the pre-dissolved salt. You probably need to completely black out the room/tank(I mean total darkness) so that it will ease the stress.


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## Fancy (Sep 6, 2011)

Its ich, it was only found on 3 fish and after 3 days I dont see them anymore on the fish. So I should continue adding salt after water changes? Im pre dissolvng the salt before I put it in the tank 1 spoon per 5 g of aquarium salt. I now see the yellow labs taking turns grazing on each other. Should I just do a complete water change and stop adding salt and bring the temp back down to 78? Should I just purchase medicine for ich instead of raising the temp and using salt? I

I just want them back to normal, Im not concerned about what Im housing in my tank right now. Please any suggestions?


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## Fancy (Sep 6, 2011)

I will try and black out the tank a little. It sits in the living area and we get a lot of sunlight. Is there anything else I should do?


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

After all the ICH was gone off my fish I continued the heat plus salt for 4 more days. Some say go another 7. I also used coppersafe to help kill the ICH once in the free swimming stage. Once the ICH falls off the fish it DOES NOT mean that it has been killed. It means it is in its free swimming stage. Still alive but not able to reproduce with temp above 86. Temp above 89.7 will kill the ICH in this free swimming stage.

You for sure need to do 25% daily water changes especially vacuuming the substrate and continue adding back in the pre-dissolved salt. Do this for a minimum of 4 more days once the ICH is no longer visable. You may need to put a dark sheet over the tank and do your best to keep in darkness. This will help with stress and your fish look really stressed. I would not do anything to stress the fish any more than they currently are. Again.....water changes are a must and so is vacuuming the substrate(sand, gravel, etc..). You want to try to vacuum up as many of the little buggers you can and that includes in your substrate.

I can only pass on what I recently re-learned again from my recent bout. It worked very well for me. I hope it works well for you.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If there is no aggression in your tank, I'm at a loss to explain the missing scales and shredded fins we can see in the pic. That does not happen with ich. :-?

If the spots become at all fuzzy I'd start to suspect columnaris. I can't quite tell from the pics.

Hope things improve. :thumb:


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## nmcichlid-aholic (Mar 23, 2011)

I think 13razorbackfan has the right of it. If you're certain you have an Ich issue and you are getting results with your treatment method, then you should see it through until the Ich has been eliminated. The high temperature can definitely stress the fish out and make them hyper-active, which will cause them to do strange things (the nibbling and flashing for example). I experienced this first hand when a tank in an upstairs room was constantly at around 85 degrees this past summer until I made some changes to improve ventilation in the room.

As DJRansome indicated, fish with Ich have had their protective slime-coating compromised so they are particularly susceptible to secondary infections. Keep a close eye out for any new signs of infection (like white fuzzy stuff or red edges around the spots missing scales). Hopefully you will avoid that for a few more days while you finsh up the current treatment, then when you lower your temp the missing scales should heal up. Keep the tank dark in the mean time - you could even tape up pieces of cardboard to the sides to keep light out - as this will help keep the fish more calm.

Good luck!


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

13razorbackfan said:


> You probably have some sort of secondary infection brought upon by the ICH.
> 
> Make sure to do your daily water changes and add back in the pre-dissolved salt. You probably need to completely black out the room/tank(I mean total darkness) so that it will ease the stress.


Or the Ich is not the problem and is also a secondary infection.... Perhaps treating for ich is not the right choice? Those fish look really rough. Personally, i think its time for drstic measures. I would drop the temp back down to 80 and perform a 90% water change if i owned fish like those. A 90% wc may do some of the weakest fish in, but the strongest will start to show signs of recovery if my hunch is right aand the problem is not the ich.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Number6 said:


> 13razorbackfan said:
> 
> 
> > You probably have some sort of secondary infection brought upon by the ICH.
> ...


You may be right. Those fish look terrible.

I was going to come on here and suggest that Fancy do the same thing except I was gonna recommend some type of medication instead. Those fish don't look like they are handling the salt/heat very well. Like I mentioned above I used coppersafe along with heat/salt to be sure. Then again I had the tank in a totally dark room and I had MAJOR surface disturbance to the point the top of my water literally looked like a whirlpool hot tub. I also left the top of the tank open to air to help with oxygenation.

Fancy you may want to do as number 6 has suggested and lower your temps back down SLOWLY over the course of a day/night(24 hour period). After the temp has gone back down and stabilized I would then do the major water change(90%). Make sure to vacuum your substrate thoroughly. Let me stress that again........make sure to vacuum your substrate thoroughly. Let us know what happens please.


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## Fancy (Sep 6, 2011)

I covered the tank with a dark sheet and went to peek in and they are just resting on the sand now. I did a 25% water change also. I will lower the temp and change the water tomorrow. Is there medicine I should purchase the dark blue fish has white fuzzy stuff around his gill fins now. Do you think I should wait to see if the lower temp and water change help the condition? Some of my other fish look normal, no scrapes, no fin tears. Its just the ones that I found ich on that are doing bad.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*Fancy*
Now i am sure that your fish didnt have ich as their primary issue. There is something else wrong... I really suggest a larger water change than 25%.

I the fish are still eating then a medicated food may be a good "shot gun" approach.


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## Fancy (Sep 6, 2011)

They are all still very greedy, what medicine do you prefer? The employees at my local pet store don't ever know what they are talking about.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

I would for sure and I mean right now start slowly turning down your temps. There are some infections and diseases that will get much worse with high temps. I would do as number 6 suggests and do a larger water change tonight. I would do at least another 50%. I would also make sure to vacuum your substrate. I would then start slowly turning down your temp and get back to 78 or so. I would also keep the sheet over the tank. I would feed them if they will eat before doing the water change to help keep up their strength. If they are resting with the sheet then that is GOOD!! That will help ease the stress and the fresh water from the water change along with the food will do them wonders.

As for the medicine I am not sure exactly what you have going on so I would start with the above and go from there. Maybe someone knows a medicine that will help but I can't speak to medicines that much because I hardly ever use them. I have only used the coppersafe that one time and it was the first time.

1. Remove sheet and turn lights on enough so they can eat
2. wait a bit and do a large water change vacuuming gravel and I would double dose with prime or other dechlor
3. turn down heat slowly over next 24 hours back down to 78
4. after water change and after turning heater down some be sure to recover the tank to curb aggression and stress

I would probably do another 20% water change tomorrow as well. I would again feed if they will eat before water change. I would then recover with sheet. Hopefully by the 3rd day(tuesday) when you take the sheet off to inspect you will see some improvements. The water changes and darkness will do wonders in helping fish to heal. The darkness will also help them heal. Our bodies are mostly the same way in that our cells and bodies heal when we sleep.


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## Fancy (Sep 6, 2011)

Okay i will follow all the steps thanks for the info!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Don't forget...90%. :thumb:


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## Fancy (Sep 6, 2011)

So I brought the temp back down to 78 and changed 90% of the water. the fish seem to be doing much better now. No more flashing and weird behavior, the dark blue fish is starting to dig his holes again. Thanks for the help


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Since you changed 90% of the water, you removed all the toxins.

Having the test kit and checking daily will alert you if the build-up starts to occur again.

Which I would expect and plan on at this point.

Also since your fish was already fuzzy, he probably does need a hospital tank a medication in spite of the newly clean water.


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## Fancy (Sep 6, 2011)

Just ran into a problem, test is showing ammonia levels are at 0.02 should I be worried?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I think maybe your tank is not completely cycled. While 0.02 is not lethal, the result should be zero.  I am surprised your kit shows 0.02. The API kit lowest reading is .25. What kind of test did you buy?

What are the measurements for nitrite and nitrate? Nitrite is more toxic than ammonia, and nitrate is a good sign that your bacteria are growing as long as you keep it under 20ppm.

You will want to test daily and depending on the results, do water changes to keep the various toxins within safe levels.


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## Fancy (Sep 6, 2011)

I have 2 HB emperior 400 filters and I changed the filters in one of them about 5 days ago. My tank was running for a few months and I also used the filter from my old established tank to cycle this tank. The test that I have is called Mardel it just tests the ph and ammonia. Before I changed the water it was at 0. I don't have a Master Kit that tests for everything.
Should I do partial water changes now until it reads 0?


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*Fancy*
Check your tap water for ammonia. Chloramines can actually regisster on some tests.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

True about checking your tap water.

But since nitrite is even more toxic than ammonia, don't you want a test kit for that?

And since your bacteria will produce nitrate when they are growing well, don't you want a test kit for that?

Once your tank is completely cycled, you will want to continue to test nitrate to keep it under 40ppm because at high levels, it is toxic as well.


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## Fancy (Sep 6, 2011)

Will do. What kind of test do you prefer? I've been reading and found that the strips aren't very accurate.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Anything with liquid reagents. API (American Pharmaceuticals) is the most common Freshwater Master Test Kit where I am.


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## tile55 (Jul 11, 2011)

interesting read, good luck Fancy


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