# Sump Pump Dilemma



## Matt1986 (May 15, 2009)

Hi all,

I'm currently setting up a 6x2x2 180 with a sump, but I'm not sure how I should approach what pump to use. All the LFS pumps with decent flow rate are **** expensive, so I've been looking into alternatives (cheap pond pumps etc).

Firstly, what kind of flow rate should I be aiming for? I was thinking of the 10x tank capacity rule - does this still apply to sumps? If so I guess I need something churning out roughly 1800 GPH (although I will shoot for less if the flow disrupts my Frontosa).

Another idea I had was to invest some money in an fx5, and use the intake/outakes to pump water from the sump to the tank - thus doubling my overall filtration, although I'm unsure of the realistic benefits of overfiltration like this.

Also, I've noticed some people run just an fx5 on a 180 - but at 900 GPH is that sufficient turnover?

As you can tell I'm a wee bit confused at the moment, so any enlightening comments would be greatly appreciated!

Matt


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## jfly (Feb 17, 2009)

i use a rio 2500 they are cheap on ebay and mine is over 4 years old with constant running, it has never failed me i have never even had to break it down and clean . most importantly it runs with my esops overflow box flawlessly with not adjustable valves. perfect speed, NO maintenance. cheap on ebay as well.. lovely unit all around :thumb:


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

What are your overflows rated at? This will determine the maximum flow rate for your sump...

Do not use a FX5 or other canister to move water from the sump to the tank. Canister filters are not designed to stand up to such head pressure and will prove themselves insufficient and very possibly worse...

When a canister is used properly, gravity pulls water down into the filter and back up the return pipe to the water level of the aquarium. The canister's pump is only asked to push water up a couple of inches over the lip and back to the tank.

You are welcome to use a pond pump. Just make sure whatever pump you use is "magnetic driven". This means the impellor is connected to the motor by a magnetic connection. This way if there is any restriction on the impellor (which there will be) the motor will turn freely and the magnetic connection will simply slip one out of every several turns.

This is opposed to using a "straight drive" pump, in which the impellor is connected to the motor by a 'drive shaft' of sorts. In this case if the impellor is in any way restricted (which it will be) the motor is slowed wich a) puts undue wear and tear on the motor, & B) Increases electrical consumption.

Danner makes the Mag Drive pumps which are very good pumps. Just be sure to prevent any sand from getting in the impellor as I've found they do not stand up to sand in the impellor very well at all... I use SEN brand pumps and am very happy with them, although they do not make exceptionally large models (over I believe 950 gph is the largest). The SEN pumps stand up to sand better than any other I've used.

As for using an FX5 only to filter your tankâ€¦ although the motor is rated at (approx) 925 gph, they only â€œactuallyâ€


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

In order to size your pump you need to give the volume your overflow(s) is capable of.

I have an AGA 220 with (2) 1" overflows that are rated at 600GPH each. I use a Danner Mag18 and that just cuts it, I do bleed some flow back to the pump well to be on the safe side. My tank might be higher and a lower head will give more flow.


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## Matt1986 (May 15, 2009)

This is actually the first time I've run a tank with overflows (hence all the confusion) and as I bought it second hand I'm not sure what the overflows are rated at. If it helps at all, I have two overflow boxes with 1" hole diameter and Durso standpipes and the sump's rotating spray arm is rated for 1800 GPH.

Given that the sump will be filled with bio-balls, where should I attempt to incorporate mechanical filtration?

If I aim for a pump pushing 900 GPH, is my system likely to be able to handle the flow? Should I aim higher?

Thanks for all the info


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

> sump's rotating spray arm


Really  
I`ve seen a lot of ideas kicked around on how to make one. 
Any chance for a picture or two? 
When looking at pumps always get a bit more pump than you think you need. As said, you can always redirect excess flow back through the sump, using a minimum of plumbing. Well worth the few $$ more for the peace of mind, knowing your pump can handle all your overflows can throw at it. 
Another point in the flow are the "U" tubes, that move water from skimmer box to the overflows. I am thinking your system came with 4, 2 per overflow??? Flow rates can be changed with nothing more than the manipulation of "U" tube number, and internal diameter. These tubes can be home made using standard PVC very cheaply. The store bought tubes are clear, which is a big plus for being able to see if air is getting trapped in them, but you have no control over size. 
If we could see your sump it would really help in getting you some mechanical media before your bio balls. It would basically be a container for sponge, floss to filter the gunk out, before it gets to your balls..check that....your bio balls.


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## Matt1986 (May 15, 2009)

John,

Thanks for all your help - I'll hopefully get some pictures up tomorrow (of the spray arm too), which should clarify the situation somewhat. I'm really looking forward to getting this tank off the ground, I've spent the last couple of weeks lugging it halfway across Sydney, sanding and repainting the stand/hood, re-sealing the tank etc and getting the sump up and running optimally is the final hurdle!

Stay tuned...

Matt


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## Matt1986 (May 15, 2009)

Ok,

First of all a couple of quick revelations - my overflow holes are actually 36mm in diameter (1.4 inches), so hopefully that will allow for a greater flow of water. Also, I was puzzling over your talk of U-tubes and skimmer boxes before realising that my system is different to the one you're talking about - I have 2 weirs installed inside the tank with holes drilled through the glass, so the water flows directly into them (see photos).

And I've decided to go with a 1300 gph pump and redirect excess flow if necessary (which I hope it won't be).

Now for some photos:









This is the unassembled rotating spray arm - the only unique bit is the middle piece which I bought from a specialist aquarium shop in Sydney - it uses ball-bearings to spin the perpendicular piping very smoothly.









The tank and sump - you can notice one of the inbuilt weirs in the back corner of the tank.









The sump. I'm planning to fill it with bioballs and cut a square of gauze (seen in first photo) for mechanical filtration.

Thoughts?

Matt


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

That is going to one sweet setup. All the goodies, plus a side of chips.  
Thanx for the pictures. 
When setting up your filter pad, do yourself a favor, make it easily replaceable. A bit of extra thought now, will pay off. There seems to be a ledge built in to use. 
Looked like your stand will give you plenty of overhead room to work with. 
Good luck, take some pics along the build..Will be watching for your progress.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> This is the unassembled rotating spray arm - the only unique bit is the middle piece which I bought from a specialist aquarium shop in Sydney - it uses ball-bearings to spin the perpendicular piping very smoothly.


These were popular in the early reef keeping days, but sort of fell out of favor because they ocassionally stopped rotating, and sometimes would clog. Of course that was in the very early days of reef keeping before they removed the biomedia from sumps. It's actually a nice concept if it's reliable. No experience with them myself, so can't speak to that. Drip trays are fine, but you get static paths for the water and inevitably some of the biomeida never sees a water stream. Seems with the random spray pattern of a spray bar, you'd get better coverage of the biomedia. I'll be interested to see how it works for you long term.


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## canuckle (Nov 30, 2004)

Matt,

You're getting some very sound advice here, I'll throw in some thoughts for you to consider.

I have a 180g with 55g sump, tank has 1 built in corner overflow with 1.5" bulkhead. So, similar to your setup except you have 2 corner overflows.

You have to factor in the head pressure on the pump, which is the height the water travels, in feet, from the pump to where it enters the main tank. I know there was a link to a chart in a thread somewhere, perhaps someone can find it.

Bottom line is you have more overflow capacity than I do. I'm running a Mag 24 (2400 gph), with 4.5 feet of head, and my overflow has no problem keeping up. If memory serves correctly my flow works out to about 1950gph with the head factored in. I use a durso standpipe as well, with bio and mechanical media at the overflow outlet into the sump. I have an additional partition just prior to the pump side of the sump which has floss for final mechanical filtration.

Piece your plumbing together and adjust before you glue...when you have the perfect alignment, take a marker and draw lines across the joints, then when you glue you'll be back together precisely as needed.

Good luck, you'll love this setup!

Mike


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

A 1.4 inch drain will handle about 1200 gph. See this calculator. If you've got two drains, then more than enough for that pump. You may actually be able to go with a bigger pump. Find the flow at 4-5' head, as *canuckle* suggested. Most pump manufacturer's list this info on their site somewhere.

Looking at that spray arm, I'm wondering how two 1.4 inch drains are going to work with that if you push too much water through. That looks like about a 1" pipe and that'll handle only about 600 gph. Maybe I'm missing something or looking at it wrong though. But, if you try to push more water through the drains than the spray bar can handle, you'll overflow the tank. I seem to remember now that that's another risk with the spray bars. If it clogs at all, and it's maxed out... You might want to consider an emergency bypass of some sort. Or just keep the pump size down. I know with my drip trays, the holes eventually get an organic slime coating that'll partially block the holes. Water backs up in the tray. Occassionally I have to take a pressure hose and blast out the holes.

Just some thoughts.


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## Matt1986 (May 15, 2009)

Thanks for the comments everyone.

I've just finished plumbing the system together today, and as Tim predicted the spray arm is the limiting factor in the flowrate. I ended up going with a 1300gph pump, and I've had to scale the flowrate back to ~1200 due to the spray arm. I'm still happy with this flow rate, and with the custom built spray bar outake the water flows nice and gently for my future Fronts.

2 issues remain...

1) How would I go about building an emergency bypass? In the meantime I'll just keep a steady watch on the spray arm and regularly maintain it, but it might be a good idea for the future. I'll post some pics of the setup tomorrow, as I guess this might help in a potential design.

2) Are there any measures I can take to help quieten my pump? It's not excessivly loud, it's a pond pump however so I'm wondering if the manufacturers were a bit liberal with the sound-dampening. There seems to mainly be noise from vibration, but I'd really like to keep it down somehow.

Any advice would be very welcome, and thanks once again for all previous input!

Matt


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

If you feel the need of the emergency overflow you could either use both of the holes as drain lines, with one as your primary or you could construct a simple PVC "pretzel" for only that use. There are a number of varients to choose from. The plus would be the noise would alert you to any problem. The minus would be regular testing to make sure it has not lost it`s prime.
As far as pump noise, a piece of sponge, for the pump to sit on and absorb the vibration might work. Make sure the pump body or any "hard lines" do not contact anything.


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## serp (Sep 3, 2009)

you can take a piece of egg crate, fill it with silicone (make a silicone matt essentially, and silicone it to your pump, or just put the pump on it.

for the standpipes, try this: http://home.everestkc.net/jrobertson57268/HGB/

also, why did you reseal the tank?


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## Matt1986 (May 15, 2009)

Because it was leaking :wink: I bought it second hand with stand and hood for $50 ($40US), so it was a steal but has taken a bit of tweaking/repairing.

Thanks for the tips re: quietening the pump and making an overflow guys!

Edit: Also, how crucial is it to glue my pipework? I have it all in place and running with no leaks, the PVC is joined very tightly and all seems OK to me. I have some silicon if need be, but if it's viable to leave it as it is I'd prefer not to glue it all together..

Matt


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Use PVC cleaner&glue..if you don`t, you will be sorry at some point in time.


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## serp (Sep 3, 2009)

be careful with that tank. Glass is porous and the initial sealing of the tank fills the glass with silicone. from that point on that silicone can never be removed, so any attempt to reseal the tank will never be as strong as the initial seal. Hopefully you only removed what needed to be. Keep an eye on it though, *** seen 75gal tanks empty into living rooms in less than 2 minutes.

i would glue the pipes. you can even dye them black with RIT as other have done.


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## Matt1986 (May 15, 2009)

Serp,

I only resealed the front of the tank as that is where the leak was. I used a generous amount of silicon to be safe, so hopefully she holds.

Re: Gluing the PVC, is it not possible to use Silicon? If so, then is there an internationally available brand of PVC that is aquarium friendly?

Matt


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## serp (Sep 3, 2009)

pretty sure pvc cement dries inert. you need to use a primer, then cement. they make clear primer, look for it cause the purple is an eye sore.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> How would I go about building an emergency bypass?


You might also consider converting to a drip tray. You can find drawers in the plastic storage drawer systems sold at Walmart, etc. The advantages are 1) you can bump your gph back up if you want to since you've removed the limiter (sparybar) and 2) the drip tray becomes the emergency overflow. If water backs up in the drawer, it just flows down through the media anyway. Not what you want to see happen, but better than a flood.

And as far as effectiveness goes, a drip tray works well if enough holes are punched in it. I don't think there's a practical difference in the amount of biofiltration you'll achieve. I think that's one of the reasons they fell out of favor. The risk was greater than the gain. Rotating spray bars are cool, though. 8)



> be careful with that tank. Glass is porous and the initial sealing of the tank fills the glass with silicone. from that point on that silicone can never be removed, so any attempt to reseal the tank will never be as strong as the initial seal. Hopefully you only removed what needed to be. Keep an eye on it though, I've seen 75gal tanks empty into living rooms in less than 2 minutes.


Sounds like it would make sense, but I've never heard that one before. Tanks are resealed all the time. Is that really how silicone adheres to glass? Any more info, or links to info?



> Also, how crucial is it to glue my pipework?


Very crucial IMO, and don't use silicone. Use the pvc cleaner and cement as suggested. It's very easy to do, just open windows while it's curing. And, it is aquarium friendly. It's used all the time. I'd let it cure for a day or so or until there's no more odor from the solvent. If you're real nervous about it, run the system with carbon for a few days after.

Not actually a cement even though it may say that on the can. The pieces are solvent welded. The surfaces are melted, then bond together as they cure. Once it sets up, you'll never get it apart again. And that happens quickly, so make sure you've got the pieces aligned the way you want them. You typically fit them together and give it a 1/4 turn to spread the solvent, then leave it alone. If you mess with it beyond that, you can ruin the joint, if it's even possible to move it. After 30-60 seconds or so, it'll be very tight. You might want to pick up a couple of cheap fittings while you're getting the solvent just to practice on. Once you do this once, you'll be a pro.



> they make clear primer, look for it cause the purple is an eye sore.


I'd agree with that. Don't know why they even make the purple stuff. A plumber could probably tell us.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

prov356 said:


> Don't know why they even make the purple stuff. A plumber could probably tell us.


Not a plumber myself but the reason is visibility. The Plumbing Inspector would have to be blind not to see it.


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## star rider (Mar 20, 2006)

it is for visibility.. with the purple stuff you can be sure you have coated the primer evenly.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

prov356 said:


> > they make clear primer, look for it cause the purple is an eye sore.
> 
> 
> I'd agree with that. Don't know why they even make the purple stuff. A plumber could probably tell us.


I think Prov was saying... he doesn't even know why they make the stuff... not he doesn't know why they make it purple...

I suspect he makes that statement based on the idea many of us use PVC 'cement' without ever using the primer and that method works just fine...

I've been told by plumbers that they use the primer to cut through any dirt or grease that may be on the PVC from shipping, handling, etc...

When doing DIY aquarium projects I never use the primer...


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## eddy (Jan 16, 2009)

My mechanical filtering happens in my overflow boxes. I guess you could call it a prefilter.....I drilled holes all over the outlet pipe and then freeze a large sponge and drill a hole right down the middle and slip it over the outlet pipe. The out let pipe is about 20 inches long but the holes are only drilled about half way up. You don't have to worry about the sponge clogging because if it fails the water will just raise in the overflow box and drain in the top of the outlet pipe.

The outlet pipe is not glued in it just pulls out which is why I leave it long so it is easy to pull out. I just pull them out and take them to the sink and spray them out let them dry and put them back in. I don't worry about the bacteria since there is 40 gallons of bioballs in the sump.

LOL it's a little hard to explain I will take pictures for you next time I clean them if I remember.

I think oceanic actually has a design like this.

Just to add to the tank sealing convo. About a year ago a buddy ask me to reseal a 55 gallon and I took the bottom out and cleaned all the silicone off and believe it or not the glass did not even touch. I was shocked. *** resealed plenty of tanks and never seen that before but it resealed fine. Just to be clear the bottom glass was smaller than the tank and there was 0 glass touches on the bottom of the tank.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I think Prov was saying... he doesn't even know why they make the stuff... not he doesn't know why they make it purple...


No, I don't know why they make the stuff purple. I find it hard to believe inspectors go around making sure a plumber used the pvc cleaner. Maybe they do. I use it and would recommend it, as it's a quick easy step.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

Yeah they dye it to make it easier for the building dept's.

For personal use get it clear and the cleaner joints will give a better result.


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## Matt1986 (May 15, 2009)

Well, it's all primed and glued now - all that remains is to throw together a silicone mat for the pump to sit on and I should be in business!

Thanks for all the input!


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