# A single Tropheus for community tank?



## gr8Fan (Oct 29, 2009)

Can a single tropheus be with other africans?

I'm trying for a african show tank(55 gal) all males.

Just looking for some info.


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## Bweb (Mar 31, 2009)

If your talking about an all male Malawi tank It's not a good Idea they have very different dietary requirements If you fed NLS maybe but the troph would not be happy they like to be in colonies. every time I've seen people try this the single troph just gets beat on or gets bloat and dies.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

I've seen it done many times quite successfully.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

Fogelhund said:


> I've seen it done many times quite successfully.


+1 :thumb:


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## Bweb (Mar 31, 2009)

Guess I,m just not a fan of mixing the lakes.


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## nish_datta (Jan 2, 2008)

If you can take care of the tropheus's dietary requirements then it can work. But IMO a colony of trophs looks great. Good luck.


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## Qaddiction (Oct 16, 2007)

> I've seen it done many times quite successfully.


I agree. Especially if you take care of the trophs diet. NLS would work fine.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

Bweb said:


> Guess I,m just not a fan of mixing the lakes.


No offense intended, but you raise a point that interests me. A lot of people say they aren't fans of mixing lakes and then mix Africans with plecos from the new world or brackish water snails. This seems to be more of a trend in the cichlid hobby compared to the other facets of the aquarium hobby. I've never fully understood the deal with not mixing lakes or continents or whatever. You're already keeping the fish in a glass box sustained by machinery and human interference, its not like this is a natural existence, so why bother trying to replicate nature entirely? I can understand, especially with Tangs that the interactions between species are an important part of their mystique, but we mix fish from different biotopes within the lake all the time. How many people keep cyps and shellies together? What I don't understand is the double standard we have surrounding "cleaners" be it plecos, snails or SAEs, do we get to overlook them just because they provide us with a useful function?


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## Bweb (Mar 31, 2009)

Darkside said:


> Bweb said:
> 
> 
> > Guess I,m just not a fan of mixing the lakes.
> ...


I agree with what you stated especially the part about keeping the fish in glass boxes. Fish tanks are purely for the enjoyment of their keepers. I just keep Malawi's with Malawi's and Tang's with Tang's that's all. Yes I to have a pleco in a few of my tanks . I was not trying to tell the poster he was doing the wrong thing or that it couldn't work just that I think Troph's are happier in colonies thats all.

Enjoy your tank and have fun with it.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Probably so, Darkside.

Still, there are water parameter differences in the African Rift Lakes to suggest a reason. Measurements taken decades ago before man started affecting the lakes greatly (for example)showed Lake Tanganyika had generally higher pH and higher iodine concentrations than the ocean or Lake Malawi which still has a high iodine level compared to other world lakes and rivers. But since we don't try to reach the high pH of Tanganyika anyway, and since if you dose with iodine, the directions for dosing reef tanks works equally well for Tanganyikan, Malawi, Central American cichlids, and livebearers, the reasoning for this separation based on water parameters may not be important enough. There is good reason for separating New World and Old World cichlids. They don't understand each other. A body postion that may indicate deference to a superior on one continent may mean something else entirely confusing to a cichlid from the other continent. And yet even in that extreme, tank raised cichlids from both continents do seem compatible enough to get along at least as juveniles.

We don't want pathogen carrying snails from Africa, so similar looking safe ones are a good substitute. There are enough algae eating cichlids from both lakes that snails and plecos don't really come as a necessity, but avoiding hybrid cichlids and aggression due to the unnatural confinement of an aquarium may be a good reason to mix geography and genera. After all you are not going to cross a cichlid with a catfish. I tend to have one cichlid species, a livebearer, and a catfish or loach in breeding tanks so I have no question about the provenance of my fry from that tank. Plus some of the livebearers such as the Ilyodons tend to keep all aggression down in tanks.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Yep I see a couple of potential problems. Yep Tropheus can catch all sorts of bugs from not fully quarantined Mbuna. I would for example not buy em from a shop that mixed em or at least ask a lot of searching questions about how each had been quarantined before mixing em. Next is what exactly to do about water conditions. TB then there is no problem they are prob used to and can thrive in Malawi type conditions. But it is your tank and Tropheus can be mixed well with some fully cleaned up Mbuna and other Malawis. Diet well that has been covered not much if any difference between Tropheus and the more veggie loving/eating Mbuna.
As to will the Troph be happy, then I think the answer can be yes. An adult Troph loves nothing more than bulling Mbuna which can if selected well take it :lol: 
There is some extra aggression because they do not fully understand each others threat behaviour but it is hardly more than say between various Malawi cichlids that never meat in the wild. 
It is pretty much the fate I hope for for spare Tropheus males from breeding projects where a male Troph becomes a problem or is surplus to requirements. Never would fit into another Tropheus type set up and would cause probs in many Tang set ups but an all male mixed lake set up could well be their best hope of a good long life.


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## gr8Fan (Oct 29, 2009)

This is a great post from all you guys. =D>

Many people in the hobby have different prefences when it comes down to cichlids. There's two groups the stands out, those who like to replicate their natural habitat and those who like the challenge of mixing different specimes from different lakes.
Just my two cents.


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

Advanced fishkeepers (and breeders) donÂ´t mix the lakes and donÂ´t keep horde fish in 1 pc (tropheus), its not natural for such fish, despite it seems to be ok. Its an animal which lives in colony, not tank "accessories". So beautyfull fish donÂ´t diserve that.
Just my opinion..sorry.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

bobo242 said:


> Advanced fishkeepers (and breeders) donÂ´t mix the lakes and donÂ´t keep horde fish in 1 pc (tropheus), its not natural for such fish, despite it seems to be ok. Its an animal which lives in colony, not tank "accessories". So beatyfull fish donÂ´t diserve that.
> Just my opinion..sorry.


The entire point is that keeping fish in a glass box sustained by machinery isn't natural anyway, so keeping a Troph with fish from Malawi isn't really that far off from keeping them in a cramped colony (which is also unnatural).


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

The colony of males and females of one troph type is not the same as group of "some colourfull" other fish. Trophs comunicate between each other, they fight for higher "rank" everyday, they want to spawn and thats completely different life, dude. The machineryÂ´s job is to make the life conditions healthy and our job is make fish life happy and natural as it gets.


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## gr8Fan (Oct 29, 2009)

Hey Bobo242 are in the hobby?

I ask you because anybody who is in the hobby knows that when you go to your LFS these fish are in a very small tank and not always happy. My point is the these fish sometimes have a better chance(life) in captivity and even some of them are in danger of extinction in their natural habitat.

Note: We don't have planes to go to Africa to capture cichlids.

My opinion...


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

Im not sure if I understand but I try to reply..
Yes, Im in the hobby, 20 years.
What means "your LFS" ?
Yes of course they are in danger all the time, fish predators, birds, snakes, fishermen etc. 
For example, 100 gal tank with 40 trophs is very safe and good place for their happy life.
Its not trophs fault that they are kept in small tanks..


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

bobo242 said:


> The colony of males and females of one troph type is not the same as group of "some colourfull" other fish. Trophs comunicate between each other, they fight for higher "rank" everyday, they want to spawn and thats completely different life, dude. The machineryÂ´s job is to make the life conditions healthy and our job is make fish life happy and natural as it gets.


*face-palm* I think you're missing the point. It isn't natural to cram large numbers of Tropheus into a smallish aquarium, in nature they have a lot more space and very different conspecific interactions. We cram large numbers of Tropheus into these aquariums to help disperse their natural aggression. The way we successfully keep trophs and petros in aquaria is anything but natural, nor is placing these fish in a glass box, dude. Just because you don't mix lakes doesn't mean it isn't a good option for some fish. "Advanced hobbyists and breeders" are really the only people who can mix fish from different locations with positive results because it takes experience and knowledge to know what to mix and what not to. Don't knock it until you've tried it. :lol:


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

Mixing is maybe ok for some fish, the truth is I didnÂ´t try it, and I wonÂ´t. I just replied the posted question regarding keeping of single troph. I donÂ´t care about "mixing" topic at all.
What is positive result? The fish survived some experiment?


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

bobo242 said:


> Mixing is maybe ok for some fish, the truth is I didnÂ´t try it, and I wonÂ´t. I just replied the posted question regarding keeping of single troph. I donÂ´t care about "mixing" topic at all.
> What is positive result? The fish survived some experiment?


Keeping 40 trophs in a 100 gallon aquarium is no more natural than mixing a single fish in a Malawi setup. In order to have that many trophs in an aquarium that size some of them have to be culled from the group. As 24tropheus said this may be the best option for bullies that have to be removed from a colony. A positive result is a fish that has great colour, size with fins in good shape that lives a long life. I was suggesting that just because you don't try it, doesn't mean that it won't work. :thumb:


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## gr8Fan (Oct 29, 2009)

Hey bobo LFS(local fish store).


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

darkside, I agree that density of trophs in hobby tanks is not the same as in nature, ok it is unnatural, but the density only. I disagree with keeping any horde fish as troph single. Mixed or not. Its also unnatural, but this way is wrong, despite of some victims of their aggression when kept in group. I dont want to repeat my reasons.

gr8Fan, thanks,Im from other continent, yes I agree, theyÂ´re kept in small tanks, I dont like it as thousand other things seen in pet stores. but this is not about hobby but business. we cant burn it, they would use water from the tanks to extinquish the fire :lol:


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

bobo242 said:


> darkside, I agree that density of trophs in hobby tanks is not the same as in nature, ok it is unnatural, but the density only. I disagree with keeping any horde fish as troph single. Mixed or not. Its also unnatural, but this way is wrong, despite of some victims of their aggression when kept in group. I dont want to repeat my reasons.
> 
> gr8Fan, thanks,Im from other continent, yes I agree, theyÂ´re kept in small tanks, I dont like it as thousand other things seen in pet stores. but this is not about hobby but business. we cant burn it, they would use water from the tanks to extinquish the fire :lol:


Unnatural is unnatural regardless.


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

its NOT the same.. :zz:


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I do not really get this argument. By this logic you have to keep your tanks bio-type pure. Only rock dwellers with rock dwellers, open sand cichlids with only open sand cichlids, intermediate habitat cichlids with only intermediate habitat cichlids, shell bed cichlids with only shell bed cichlids, open water chichlids with only open water cichlids etc and all at the densities they are found in the wild and only those that come from the same bit of coast line within the lake. Do we add silt and detritus to the tank, as it is found in the wild?
It is an artificial environment, the cichlids adapt and are no happier I would contend in a bio-type set up than a mixed lake set up.
It is hardly new or experimental to mix Mbuna with Tropheus. Many have generally found they mix better than many one lake bio-type cichlids mix. Advanced cichlid keepers I think concentrate on what keeps the cichlids healthy, rather than sticking to any particular dogma. Though you can have very pleasing (perhaps the most pleasing) tanks that way.


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

Im sorry how you took it. Ok, I try to express my opinion about keeping single troph: it is wrong, this fish need other males and females of the same type to behave naturaly.

I dont do things by logic you said at all. For example I keep cyps with shellies because both species is different and there is no problem of interaction at all. Group of cyps behave natural and so do shellies. The result is nice working tank. Thats my logic.

I dont agree with experiments like that (single troph in any tank) from selfish reasons with no respect to nature and individual needs of fish species. I dont get argument that is unnatural to keep fish in a glass box anyway so we can do what we want.We have responsibilty for them so we should make their lives in glass boxes the best we can.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

I saw a single male Tropheus in a "desk top" tank while at a garage sale after my wife told the people I could ID their mystery fish. Probably a duboisei, but so incredibly scarred I could only be sure it was a Tropheus. He was a couple inches longer than the tank and so had to swim at an angle either with his head up or down. I could not help thinking it was cruel, but when I suggested a larger tank, they said it had been in a 15 along with other African cichlids they were given after only one was fish was alive, and that the tank and filter with dead fish bodies was so dirty they decided a smaller tank without a filter would stay cleaner.


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

very sad story  , thats what I can say cause dont want to use any badword..


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I can see your point, *bobo242*. When reading about schooling fish such as some tetra's etc, it's often said 'keep them in groups so they feel comfortable', whatever 'comfortable' means to a fish. So does that same idea apply to tropheus, cyprichromis, etc?

Keeping a single male is different than a single female. A single male claims a territory and defends it while trying to entice females into it. There's no 'social' group or pecking order involved where he's concerned. So, he just ends up defending a territory in a bad patch of lake with no females. The only thing he misses is breeding opportunities, and I guess you could call that cruel. 

From a practical standpoint, it can be done, so comes down to an ethical question. If a single tropheus is kept, does it suffer in some way? Does it become lethargic, stop eating, 'sulk', or suffer in some unseen way? I saw one kept with CA/SA's once, and he looked fine, but I didn't get to watch the tank very long. I think that's what it would take for me to form a final opinion. To actually try it and see the long term affect.

I wouldn't set out to stock a tank this way, but that's just my personal preference of seeing them interact. It's all about behaviors for me with Tanganyikans. Keep a single and you lose *all *of that. You might as well find something more colorful.

Just my .02


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

prov356 said:


> I can see your point, *bobo242*. When reading about schooling fish such as some tetra's etc, it's often said 'keep them in groups so they feel comfortable', whatever 'comfortable' means to a fish. So does that same idea apply to tropheus, cyprichromis, etc?
> 
> Keeping a single male is different than a single female. A single male claims a territory and defends it while trying to entice females into it. There's no 'social' group or pecking order involved where he's concerned. So, he just ends up defending a territory in a bad patch of lake with no females. The only thing he misses is breeding opportunities, and I guess you could call that cruel.
> 
> ...


Prov, what do you do with your outcast Trophs? Everyone knows that RR or Moliro are very colourful fish. Not many mbuna have that striking red colour making these Tropheus an ideal aesthetic choice for such a setup.
Trophs still have similar interactions when placed with mbuna. Remember the Trophues X Auratus cross? The come from the same biotope and even fill the same niche as some mbuna. They're even exhibit similar aggression levels. I like to encourage people to try something new, there is no tried and true formula in fish keeping. :lol: 
If we suffer from a stale ideology there would never be any progression in the hobby. Keeping fish from different biotopes does effect the interactions of said fish. Very few cyps in the lake are ever nipped at by occies, probably only those who are lost or sick. Just like few Calvus interact with sandsifters. Tropheus make a great display fish, but we probably keep them in the most unnatural circumstances of all fish in the lake (if you ignore depth). We keep Tropheus for selfish reasons and we keep them in a very unnatural manner, Tropheus do not exist in the lake at the density we keep them in the aquarium. I'm not sure what bobo is going on about with respect to nature, because we certainly don't keep them in a natural setting. We pack them into a small aquarium like sardines and we facilitate their success by unnaturally removing the bullies and endlessly adjusting their aquascaping. We keep Tropheus this way because it works and because it makes a great display. Keeping Tropheus like this has nothing to do with nature. If that were the case we'd have a lower density of Tropheus mixed with various other species like petros or Simnochromis, maybe the odd gobie who got lost. We certainly wouldn't put 40 of them in a 100 gallon tank.


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

"When reading about schooling fish such as some tetra's etc, it's often said 'keep them in groups so they feel comfortable', whatever 'comfortable' means to a fish. So does that same idea apply to tropheus, cyprichromis, etc?"

Yes, its similar, but the reason of creating group is different. Tetras, cyps etc do that because they feel safe in large groups, there is no other protection strategy in open water against predator fish. Cyps males create their own small 3D territories inside thousand member group and fight (gentle cyps way) with other male to get better (safer) place inside the group.So they try in a tank, so the more cyps in the tank the better.
Trophs are different, just females create groups and males try to spawn with them inside their quiet big territories. This is impossible to see in regular tank.To keep group in a tank succesfully, we must have optimal density to avoid killing submisive individuals and it hapens despite of optimal conditions.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

bobo242 said:


> "When reading about schooling fish such as some tetra's etc, it's often said 'keep them in groups so they feel comfortable', whatever 'comfortable' means to a fish. So does that same idea apply to tropheus, cyprichromis, etc?"
> 
> Yes, its similar, but the reason of creating group is different. Tetras, cyps etc do that because they feel safe in large groups, there is no other protection strategy in open water against predator fish. Cyps males create their own small 3D territories inside thousand member group and fight (gentle cyps way) with other male to get better (safer) place inside the group.So they try in a tank, so the more cyps in the tank the better.
> Trophs are different, just females create groups and males try to spawn with them inside their quiet big territories. This is impossible to see in regular tank.To keep group in a tank succesfully, we must have optimal density to avoid killing submisive individuals and it hapens despite of optimal conditions.


You don't HAVE to keep them in optimal densities, you choose to keep them in an overstocked aquarium. Despite your "optimal conditions" some fish are still lost. I'm sure the dead fish would have appreciated having a go as a singlet in a Malawi tank. :lol:


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

yes its the way how to keep a troph alive, result: trophs are not fish for beginners and keeping single troph doesnÂ´t give any experiences with such fish.


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

darkside, sorry, but this is not topic about overstocked tank, what is quarantee that mixed or whatever tank youÂ´re talking about wonÂ´t be overstocked? what is your optimal density in mbuna/mixed tank? I think that its very similar to density I mentioned, generaly 1 fish/10-15 liters.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

bobo242 said:


> yes its the way how to keep a troph alive, result: trophs are not fish for beginners and keeping single troph doesnÂ´t give any experiences with such fish.


I don't know, trophs are actually pretty hardy fish if you feed them properly. They aren't as indestructible as tiger barbs, but they are pretty resilient. Keeping a single troph gives experience with a single troph. If one can maintain a single fish long-term it will be easy to keep a group of them. Because you can keep a Tropheus alive and well for years as a single fish there is no reason to suggest that keeping them in a large group is the only way to keep them alive. That's entirely contradictory. :lol: I don't know how you can discount methods of keeping fish just because they don't align with your own. It is just your opinion, but you don't know otherwise until you've tried it and you offer no evidence that you've done so. Its a good thing this bias isn't prevalent throughout the entire hobby or all we'd be keeping is species tanks.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

bobo242 said:


> darkside, sorry, but this is not topic about overstocked tank, what is quarantee that mixed or whatever tank youÂ´re talking about wonÂ´t be overstocked? what is your optimal density in mbuna/mixed tank? I think that its very similar to density I mentioned, generaly 1 fish/10-15 liters.


I was suggesting that keeping Tropheus in a packed mbuna tank is really just as unnatural as keeping them in a packed species tank. You're just discounting the idea because its with fish from Malawi.


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

Dude, when I said: "yes its the way how to keep a troph alive" I ment single troph. 
I didnt say that keeping in a group is only way to keep them alive.


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

Darkside said:


> bobo242 said:
> 
> 
> > darkside, sorry, but this is not topic about overstocked tank, what is quarantee that mixed or whatever tank youÂ´re talking about wonÂ´t be overstocked? what is your optimal density in mbuna/mixed tank? I think that its very similar to density I mentioned, generaly 1 fish/10-15 liters.
> ...


I dont like this idea because of keeping SINGLE troph. In some really big tank could work GROUP of trophs with mbunas, I didnt say anything against Malawi fish.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

There was a time years ago in the hobby, when Tropheus were commonly kept in community tanks, mixed with Malawians as pairs only. The common thinking was that Tropheus were pair bonding fish. I bred a duboisi "pair" for many years, mixed in with Malawians. They did quite well kept this way.

Keeping them in large groups is not due to being a schooling fish and needing the comfort, it is to reduce aggression. They will be fine as singles in a mixed tank.

bobo242, have you kept any single Tropheus in a mixed tank before?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Prov, what do you do with your outcast Trophs?


Haven't pulled them yet, but wouldn't hesitate to put them on their own if/when I do. I'm not opposed to trying it at all. And I agree that they're colorful, but maybe misstated the point I was trying to make.



> I like to encourage people to try something new, there is no tried and true formula in fish keeping.


I do as well. Don't take my post as being against it. I didn't intend it to be.



> If we suffer from a stale ideology there would never be any progression in the hobby.


 :thumb: :thumb:



> but we probably keep them in the most unnatural circumstances of all fish in the lake (if you ignore depth).


We do. Having females hovering 18" above the male's territory is very unnatural. Little resemblance to what they'd do in the lake.



> we certainly don't keep them in a natural setting.


We don't, to be sure. A good point was made in a post about keeping species together that would never be together in the lake. Probably very few, if any, pure biotopically correct multi-species tang tanks out there. None of mine are. But I do try and go with compatible species that allow each to act as naturally as possible with their own kind, as bobo242 suggested. So, virtually all of our tanks are 'unnatural' just to different degrees. Some of just draw the line in different places. Personally, I don't know where I'd draw it. I wouldn't be opposed to mixing lakes for a display tank in a family room setting, for instance, but not in my fish room where I want to sit and observe beharviors.



> I was suggesting that keeping Tropheus in a packed mbuna tank is really just as unnatural as keeping them in a packed species tank.


It's close. I see that more and more as mine get older and larger.


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

fogelhund, no I havenÂ´t, like I said before, and I wonÂ´t. I keep just tanganyikan fish. If I would want malawi tank, I would never put a single troph there. There is no reason. There is a lot of beautyfull malawis to have a nice looking tank, with psychic healthy fish.


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## borohands8593 (Apr 15, 2009)

OK since this thread ended up in an entirely lengthy discussion totally away from the original post I will add my input anyway.
There is nothing wrong with mixing lakes or continents or different ecosystems within a single lake into an un-natural glass box. What we do in any tank with any species from anywhere is totally un-natural. In the wild each fish has thousands of gallons to call its own and run away to, in a tank they're lucky if they get 5gal per fish. 
Dont get me wrong, we need to be careful in matching diets and requirements. It would be very difficult to mix a WC frontosa with a WC arrowana where the pH goes from a 6.5 to a 9. We also need to be careful with temperaments as a tropheus probably wouldnt work with gentle featherfins. Likewise a Front would eat a colony of shellies or cyps. Some fish do better in schools, mostly tetras and neons, because they get too stressed out as an individual and eventually die from it. However, In the wild there are only two groups of cichlids that are TRULY a schooling cichlid and should not be kept in any other way. Cyprichromis and Paracyprichromis school by the thousands and mate in a school like fashion. Although pairs will breed the best luck is with a large school. All other "schools" of cichlids are kept for the one and only purpose of aggression dispersion. This is with any mbuna or trophs.
bobo----If you feel so strongly about mimicking the natural habit of the fish so much than what would you opinion be on an all male tank??? There is certainly nothing natural about a sausage only fest...... 
...opinions welcomed but dont tell somebody it cant work because you disagree with it, esp if you have never tried it yourself.


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

borohands8593 said:


> bobo----If you feel so strongly about mimicking the natural habit of the fish so much than what would you opinion be on an all male tank??? There is certainly nothing natural about a sausage only fest......
> ...opinions welcomed but dont tell somebody it cant work because you disagree with it, esp if you have never tried it yourself.


All male tank is selfish solution of humans to have all fish nice and coloured. I prefer certain ratio of males and females depending on species, for example cyps males without females would lose motivation to display fins and colours etc.
YouÂ´re right I disagree with that. I DONT say it doesnt work..I didnÂ´t try that and I wonÂ´t.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

bobo242 said:


> borohands8593 said:
> 
> 
> > bobo----If you feel so strongly about mimicking the natural habit of the fish so much than what would you opinion be on an all male tank??? There is certainly nothing natural about a sausage only fest......
> ...


Keeping fish in an aquarium is a selfish solution for humans to have nice and colourful fish.

I've seen all male Cyps, and they were as coloured as if females were in the tank.

I appreciate that people have different opinions and values, that is fine. Personally I keep only breeding groups, and never singles. (Except when I end up with single due to mortality in older fish, or extras from pairing.. I have a few single Tangs in my Malawian tank, of rare fish, extra males... I had a 9 year old single male calvus, as the female had passed at 8)

If you haven't tried something, it isn't accurate to suggest the fish won't display properly, or have a healthy life. You are just stating your values, as if they are fact... when they aren't.


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

Fogelhund said:


> If you haven't tried something, it isn't accurate to suggest the fish won't display properly, or have a healthy life. You are just stating your values, as if they are fact... when they aren't.


Yes like I said, I dont keep just males so I didnÂ´t try that, it was opinion of more experienced keeper than me, sorry for that.
But sure fact is that I still think that all male tank is wrong.


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## gr8Fan (Oct 29, 2009)

gr8Fan said:


> Can a single tropheus be with other africans?
> 
> I'm trying for a african show tank(55 gal) all males.
> 
> Just looking for some info.


When a fellow hobbyist let their "personal preference" take over, this what happens.
The whole reason is to get as much "reliable information" possible, a true hobbyist look for a good source of information(when is need it) everytime to make a dicision.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

gr8Fan said:


> gr8Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Can a single tropheus be with other africans?
> ...


The funny thing is that in nature the males don't live in groups, they defend a territory singly, so in an all male Malawi tank I'd expect a single troph to work out just fine. My brother has done it and it went okay for him, mind you it was mostly haps. I find its usually best to put experience before what someone thinks. I think you ought to try it out and come back to us with the results and some pictures. My brother now has just a single 40 gallon tank where he maintains a 9" crabro and a single tiger barb. They've been together for 2 years now, so I guess anything can work. :lol:


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

If its OK for you keeping that crabro, there is nothing to talk about, I give up. I wish you all good luck in your hobby.


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## gr8Fan (Oct 29, 2009)

I'll be setting up the tank soon and I'm going for it. I did my homework and there's no immediate danger so WHY NOT. I know there's a few steps to follow to introduce a tropheus for the firt time, got to do it right. Maybe get two(m/f).

I'll keep you guys posted of the results, pics and maybe a video.

Bobo no offense, but we all follow the same hobby but it doesn't mean that we all have to do the same thing. I'm very happy to see your point of view and the others, this is why we all signed up to this blog. :thumb:


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

gr8Fan said:


> I'll be setting up the tank soon and I'm going for it. I did my homework and there's no immediate danger so WHY NOT. I know there's a few steps to follow to introduce a tropheus for the firt time, got to do it right. Maybe get two(m/f).
> 
> I'll keep you guys posted of the results, pics and maybe a video.
> 
> Bobo no offense, but we all follow the same hobby but it doesn't mean that we all have to do the same thing. I'm very happy to see your point of view and the others, this is why we all signed up to this blog. :thumb:


I thought this was an all male tank? If you add a female of any species then all **** will break loose. :lol:


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## gr8Fan (Oct 29, 2009)

Ohhhh yeah darkside...all-males :lol: I forgot about it....man....I think it was the "crazy" thread


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

bobo242 said:


> If its OK for you keeping that crabro, there is nothing to talk about, I give up. I wish you all good luck in your hobby.


The crabro is my brother's favourite fish, I think he's had it for 5 years now. I'm not maintaining the fish, he is. Its just an outrageous example of a mix that should never work.


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## Calvus&amp;Hobbs (Dec 10, 2009)

*I have a 55gal "Pot Luck Tank". Which consists of A Mixture of life. *** had this tank for 2 years now. Here is what's inside...Not much...but just listen to this Odd Mixture. then ask yourself the first question you posted on this board.

1-Gold Head Comp
2-Bemba flames
1-South American Fire Mouth
1- Blue Johanni

ALL ADULTS & Not all raised together!!
No deaths yet...I call that an ODD mixture, to say the least. The fact that the majority of them enjoy veggies makes it a little easier. 
opcorn: opcorn: *
Good LUCK!


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

Calvus&Hobbs said:


> *I have a 55gal "Pot Luck Tank". Which consists of A Mixture of life. I've had this tank for 2 years now. Here is what's inside...Not much...but just listen to this Odd Mixture. then ask yourself the first question you posted on this board.
> 
> 1-Gold Head Comp
> 2-Bemba flames
> ...


I'm sure all of us that have multiple tanks have one that acts as a catch-all for the rejects and leftovers. lol


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## gr8Fan (Oct 29, 2009)

I know that "luck" more then anything else(when a hobbyist have odd mix) cause there's very little information regarding "odd mixture". Sometimes we gotta think outside the box, I would love to see my tank and appreciate all the fish from different lakes.

There's rules to follow but it can be done and if you don't believe me open an thread an see for yourself.

Thanks Calvus&Hobbs for the input.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

cyps males without females would lose motivation to display fins and colours etc.

Wrong.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

noddy said:


> cyps males without females would lose motivation to display fins and colours etc.
> 
> Wrong.


It's not like if you put a bunch of guys together they will drink beer, watch pro wrestling and smash empty cans on their foreheads. These are fish, more driven by instinct than by reasoning.


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## Bweb (Mar 31, 2009)

WOW we really need to start a debate team you guys would be unstoppable this is the beautiful part of a global forum not every one is going to agree :lol: and you can pick the answer you were looking for.

and props to all responders for keeping it civil this thread is a great read but I must admit I'm glad I bowed out early :thumb:


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## nksoogrim (Oct 24, 2009)

Hey everyone, all I can share is my experience. I started my 90gal with 6 tros. and 8 malawis. Over time the malawis were sent to the lfs. Out of my 6 originals only 1 survived, his name is Piglet. The stocking of this tank is now pretty large, 3 Black Calvus, 2 Gold Comps, 3 Julies, 3 leluipi, 2 Cylindricus, 2 Cyps, 1 brichardi (lost 2 and 1 pulcher) there are a couple more. I suspect that Piglet of murder, he is the largest fish in the tank, I think he killed my pulcher, 2 brichardis, 3 clown gobies, and a couple others. He is the oldest fish in my tank and he is always on a rampage. I suspect sooner or later I am going to have to send him somewhere, BUT, where can he go now, he can't be introduced into any colony its too late for that, and I don't want to see him go either. Maybe your experience will be better. Oh yeh.... this guy eats everything, no joke, you name it he will eat it. I think he is one of the X-Fish mutants of the dubosies


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## gr8Fan (Oct 29, 2009)

I think we need to put this thread to rest................forever :lol:


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## scrubjay (Oct 25, 2009)

I understand what bobo is saying in terms of animal husbandry. With mammals and birds, social species do much better in groups and can become neurotic if kept alone. Others only come together once a year to mate and will be stressed if forced to be in groups. "Natural" doesn't have to be black and white; i.e., just because the aquarium is supported by unnatural means doesn't mean you can't replicate the habitat as closely as possible, whether for aesthetic reasons, or because the species seems to thrive. That said, fish are pretty flexible, so it seems to come down to more of an aesthetic opinion than a biological necessity. I don't like all-male tanks myself, but the fish are all gorgeous. I totally shudder when I see a tropheus mixed in an all-male tank :lol: I want things to look like a little slice of natural habitat, but I want to make it look even more aesthetically pleasing than "natural," and I also want to feel like the fish have enough room and the right types of habitat elements so that when I watch them, I can feel relaxed and convince myself they have a good life. :dancing:

Most people who have commented in this thread do seem to agree on one point--that they want their fish to be healthy, and that means keeping stress at low levels, whether from disease, poor water quality, or aggression from other fish.


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

Just for the fun of it  I'll say. Technically speaking, imo, a glass box run by machinery is completely natural.

Explanation:

If you consider Humans to be animals, in any sense, or at least earthbound (As in derived from earth), then we are simply an animal which, for enjoyment (Or to sustain sanity, think about dogs chewing bones), goes out of it's den, captures other animals and keeps, protects and provides for that animal or animals.

In the grand scheme of things, how is this any different than ants which enslave aphids or termites for food or work? :lol:

Mix lakes, don't mix lakes, I don't think fish have a solid understanding of what they "deserve" anyway. Personally I don't mix lakes, I don't keep plecos but I do have snails from all over :? but If I were any of our fish, and could think for myself, and possessed the cerebral power to be "self aware", I would be totally pleased that I had free food, wasn't being hunted constantly, and was cared for regardless of wether or not there were "lake foreigners" in my space. :lol:


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

well said scrub!


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

scrubjay, thanks for your post, I was afraid that IÂ´m some kind of weird with my opinion.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I think I get it. Folk are arguing against the idea of lone cichlids in tanks with other lone cichlids (The whole idea behind all male Tanks) rather than specifically a Tropheus kept with individual Mbuna and other Malawi cichlids and stuff from other lakes.
I understand where they are coming from I think.

I think Tropheus being so social and yet violent to its own kind, often the choice is what can I keep with this lone male or shall I put it down (It is too old to have much chance of mixing again with other Tropheus with success). In that case it is prob simplest to keep it in a tank designed to keep aggression down with cichlids it can relate to from a similar habitat.
I do not see this as much more than keeping a Mbuna from the south of lake Malawi with one from the North and less than keeping rock Mbuna with Peacocks or "Haps" and less than keeping Malawi cichlids with Victorian cichlids.

I really did not intend to encourage anyone to go and buy a single Tropheus from a group that are living well together to put it in an all male tank. But providing a good home for a single male Tropheus being sold (that often causes problems in many tanks) can only be a good thing?

There you go a moral as well as a practical reason for doing this. :wink:


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

scrubjay said:


> I totally shudder when I see a tropheus mixed in an all-male tank :lol: I want things to look like a little slice of natural habitat, but I want to make it look even more aesthetically pleasing than "natural," and I also want to feel like the fish have enough room and the right types of habitat elements so that when I watch them, I can feel relaxed and convince myself they have a good life. :dancing:


If its a male Trophues in an all male tank why would you shudder? In nature they live singly. There are also many mbuna who share the same trophic niche and have a similar temperament as well as the same water values, even depth constraints and breeding methodologies. I think this is a case of how captive animal husbandry has affected the perceptions on what is natural for the fish.


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## gr8Fan (Oct 29, 2009)

It doesn't matter what type of setup you'r interested(breeding, all males, malawi, tangs...etc) we all try to accommodate the fish oneway or the other....maybe be rock work, caves..etc 
But there's different methods that classifieds a fellow hobbyist from the other(preferences, space, knowledge, etc....) that will effect their dicision. I mean just because I use my wife's bodywash that doesn't mean you have to do the same :lol:

We all have valid points.


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## scrubjay (Oct 25, 2009)

Darkside said:


> If its a male Trophues in an all male tank why would you shudder? In nature they live singly. There are also many mbuna who share the same trophic niche and have a similar temperament as well as the same water values, even depth constraints and breeding methodologies. I think this is a case of how captive animal husbandry has affected the perceptions on what is natural for the fish.


It's just aesthetics, like I said, not biology. It just looks "funny." Like a zoo exhibit of African plains animals with a tiger in it. Maybe even a better analogy would be a sentence with a misspelled word in it. Sort of like "which one of these things is not like the other?" on Sesame Street. I'm probably a little OCD :? It helps when you are an editor. When I watch a movie, and it is set in California, I notice if they use a recording of East Coast birds in the soundtrack.

But it all falls somewhere along a continuum. Some may not want to mix fish from different rivers or regions, some are okay as long as fish are from the same lake, some okay as long as all the fish are from the same continent, and others are fine as long as they are all fish from Earth. and we all make concessions for various reasons, like having a tank of fish that don't fit anywhere else, or wanting lots of color and action. Please don't think I subscribe to the "natural habitat" ethos for everything--for example, I love my two pet rats, and I spoil them to death, but they are spayed and neutered and litter box trained and live as far from a natural life as I do! :lol:


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## mikeinco (Aug 17, 2006)

I used to have a Petrochromis Trewavasae with my Frontosa colony and he did great. I've often wanted to try this combo again because it got so many compliments. I still worry about the bloat issue though. Fronts like meat and its hard to make sure the Petrochromis doesn't get it.


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## scrubjay (Oct 25, 2009)

That's an interesting combo. Just last night I was wondering how Petrochromis do as singles in tanks of Tropheus or other Tangs. I'd love to have some, but I haven't reached the phase of the hobby where I am at ease with the idea of an overstocked and hyperactive tank. 8) So a single Petro...I'm curious how many keep them that way.


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## mikeinco (Aug 17, 2006)

scrubjay said:


> That's an interesting combo. Just last night I was wondering how Petrochromis do as singles in tanks of Tropheus or other Tangs. I'd love to have some, but I haven't reached the phase of the hobby where I am at ease with the idea of an overstocked and hyperactive tank. 8) So a single Petro...I'm curious how many keep them that way.


Evendently most keep Petrochromis the same way they keep Tropheus, in large groups. My single male didn't seem stressed at all. The only reason i gave him up was because i was moving.


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## scrubjay (Oct 25, 2009)

yeah, I was doing some research and that sounds like almost the only way people keep them. But I have seen people put one or a few in tanks with Tropheus colonies. It would be pretty expensive to pack a big tank with petros!


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

I think it depends on you, who you are psychologically. I had a sing Tropheus Moliro in a community tang tank because he was a beautiful little guy but every day I'd watch the tank and I couldn't stop reminding myself that he didn't belong. The Calvus had there rock work (I even made sure my rock dwellers had "Basalt" as rock just like the lake... I'm with you scrub! :lol: )

It's a wonder psychiatrists actually recommend aquariums as a focus for stress etc.! The more tanks, fish etc. I get the closer to the psychiatrist's "couch" I get :lol: ! OCD to cure stress!

Reminds me of drug addicts smoking cigarettes to cure addiction!

As a note- I noticed on the last page someone said an all male cyprichromis setup would be unnatural. It may interest some to know that all male schools of cyps cruise the lake together naturally.


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## gr8Fan (Oct 29, 2009)

A little update, the tank is almost running but not yet. More pics to come so stay tune for the final product. I picked up the xp3 canister today and last week the stand, so far so good.

http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy14 ... 1261010493

A side question: Eco-complete for africans any good?
My tap water just need a little touch up for balance.


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

prov356 said:


> I can see your point, *bobo242*. When reading about schooling fish such as some tetra's etc, it's often said 'keep them in groups so they feel comfortable', whatever 'comfortable' means to a fish. So does that same idea apply to tropheus, cyprichromis, etc?
> 
> here are some videos, hope you all like it, despite of germain commentary
> 
> ...


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

bobo242 said:


> prov356 said:
> 
> 
> > I can see your point, *bobo242*. When reading about schooling fish such as some tetra's etc, it's often said 'keep them in groups so they feel comfortable', whatever 'comfortable' means to a fish. So does that same idea apply to tropheus, cyprichromis, etc?
> ...


Zaire? Wie alt sind diese Videos?


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

dude, youÂ´re really fast  I apologize you that they use old geographical names. hope you like it anyway.


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## Longstocking (Aug 26, 2003)

I hate to say this but....

Most tropheus species do not school in the wild. Only certain ones do. They do not behave anything like they do in our tanks.

So, in fact, keeping one tropheus Moliro... is totally normal.

I have talked to a few people that have actually dove in the lake and that is one of the things they commented on....

I think Tim Nurse has all the pictures of troheus as singles.... the ONE shot of I think a birchardi variant ( I don't remember actually which species it was)... that did school.

So your whloe train of thought is well... flawed !


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

I told before.. I gave up this discussion. Just wanted you to enjoy the videos..


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

Actually the videos are a pretty interesting watch, but I'm not sure how much one would benefit from them without understanding the commentary.


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

right, but people can see how it looks like in the lake. the commentary is mostly about what we can see or what we already know..btw there is more interesting videos on this page.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

Someone who doesn't understand German watch this and comment! :lol:


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Fantastic videos, thank you! I enjoyed them immensely and don't speak a word of German.  I could watch Tanganyikan dive videos all day. I get to at least get a glimpse of what I'll probably never be able to do. I wish someone would put out a collection of these on DVD.

Can't wait for my p. brieni to color up like that. Hope they do, anyway.



Longstocking said:


> Most tropheus species do not school in the wild. Only certain ones do. They do not behave anything like they do in our tanks.


That's pretty apparent in the videos. Makes me see my tank of trophs as more and more unnatural all the time. I almost feel bad keeping them that way, almost.


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

darkside, dont know why :lol:, its not funny at all or should I take it personally? :-?


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

bobo242 said:


> darkside, dont know why :lol:, its not funny at all or should I take it personally? :-?


Don't you speak German? I was hoping someone would comment on the videos, (like Tim just did) to see if they were a good resource for non-German speakers. :lol: is because I figured the only people commenting on them (me and you) are those able to understand them. :lol:


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

prov356 said:


> Fantastic videos, thank you! I enjoyed them immensely and don't speak a word of German.  I could watch Tanganyikan dive videos all day. I get to at least get a glimpse of what I'll probably never be able to do. I wish someone would put out a collection of these on DVD.
> 
> Can't wait for my p. brieni to color up like that. Hope they do, anyway.
> 
> ...


Well judging from the fish in the video you could do a community tank with a couple trophs, 1 or two petros, some gobies, some Telmatochromis temporalis, Lobochilotes labiatus and I think I remember some Variabilichromis moori in there as well. There were some Lepiodiolamprologus darting in and out of screen too. I even spotted a male Lamprichthys tanganicanus on screen briefly as well.


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

I think such videos are cool even for martian fish keeper..  Its about what you see..like our tanks, nobody is babbling all the time :lol: when we watch them..


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## bobo242 (Dec 8, 2009)

Darkside said:


> [
> 
> Well judging from the fish in the video you could do a community tank with a couple trophs, 1 or two petros, some gobies, some Telmatochromis temporalis, Lobochilotes labiatus and I think I remember some Variabilichromis moori in there as well. There were some Lepiodiolamprologus darting in and out of screen too. I even spotted a male Lamprichthys tanganicanus on screen briefly as well.


yes, but the tank should be about 10 000 gal :lol:


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## gr8Fan (Oct 29, 2009)

Nice videos, I wish I was there. :lol: 
Also is good to see them in the wild, give us the real natural habitat.


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## gr8Fan (Oct 29, 2009)

A little update, the tank is cycling it should be ready in 2-3 weeks.

http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy14 ... 1262276583


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

gr8Fan said:


> A side question: Eco-complete for africans any good?
> My tap water just need a little touch up for balance.


Did anyone answer this for you?

It works fine in most rift tanks. Takes a couple of hours to rise the pH after large water changes though if used alone. Best used with a buffer each water change or it can dissolve and brake up (possibly causing gill irritation to sand sifters).
Baking soda each water change gives you more stable conditions and is cheaper but the Eco-complete may give extra safety from pH crashes if a few water changes are missed or you get unnoticed deaths in the tank.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Please ignore the post above I see you have gone for a nice neutral looking sand. :thumb:

I know it prob makes little difference but why not stick the rocks in now before the cycle is complete?
Give us time to say weather you are going for too many or two few for your filtration method.

Lots of rocks = the need for higher flow and turnover but can look far nicer.
Also they are best settled right on the bottom so no fish can undermine them by digging and cause em to fall and crack the glass or trap unwary fish.


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## gr8Fan (Oct 29, 2009)

24Tropheus said:


> Please ignore the post above I see you have gone for a nice neutral looking sand. :thumb:
> 
> I know it prob makes little difference but why not stick the rocks in now before the cycle is complete?
> Give us time to say weather you are going for too many or two few for your filtration method.
> ...


I haven't decide on what type of rock I should used, thats why the tank is empty. I was going to get texas holey(limestone) but is so common now days just like lace rock and expensive, around here texas holey rock is 5$ p/p, lace rock 4$ p/p.
Maybe I might go with river rock, they smooth and different colors which is a plus.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I would advise river rock of those three. I know loads of folk who have gone lace or texas holey rock and then changed to river rock or limestone. Yet to meet a guy who thinks they are better long term (I have that stuff in my garage looking for someone stupid enough to buy it from me) oops I guess I would not make a sails man or LFS employee :wink: , they can kind of give more hiding space for young fish (or fish in very highly stocked small tanks) but the drawbacks are they look unnatural and can scratch mature fish and many cichlids do not like spawning on rough surfaces.

Mind you I envy you those prices. We kind of go out collecting rocks here in the UK (despite being illegal here) because our prices for rocks are far far higher than those. Cheap legal places to search out rocks here are builders merchants and landscape garden places but it can be rather hit and miss as they stock what sells to garden and building projects mainly.


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## gr8Fan (Oct 29, 2009)

24Tropheus said:


> I would advise river rock of those three. I know loads of folk who have gone lace or texas holey rock and then changed to river rock or limestone. Yet to meet a guy who thinks they are better long term (I have that stuff in my garage looking for someone stupid enough to buy it from me) oops I guess I would not make a sails man or LFS employee :wink: , they can kind of give more hiding space for young fish (or fish in very highly stocked small tanks) but the drawbacks are they look unnatural and can scratch mature fish and many cichlids do not like spawning on rough surfaces.
> 
> Mind you I envy you those prices. We kind of go out collecting rocks here in the UK (despite being illegal here) because our prices for rocks are far far higher than those. Cheap legal places to search out rocks here are builders merchants and landscape garden places but it can be rather hit and miss as they stock what sells to garden and building projects mainly.


That sucks man......WOW
The river rocks a really nice but I'm not sure if algae would grow on them. I'll be stocking some trophues and mbunas so I need algae on the rocks.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Why would algae not grow on river rocks? If there was any kind of rock that would not grow algae...we would all have it, LOL!


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## scrubjay (Oct 25, 2009)

I love the blocky look of limestone and basalt chunks/boulders. I know the rounded rocks are more like the lake habitat, but when piled up, they seem to have less room "inside" in terms of caves and crevices.

So, from now on, I think we should all keep tropheus in single-fish tanks. 8)


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## scrubjay (Oct 25, 2009)

bobo242 said:


> right, but people can see how it looks like in the lake. the commentary is mostly about what we can see or what we already know..btw there is more interesting videos on this page.


I thought it was great. All you need to know is the scientific names anyway. :wink: 
From that first video, it certainly looks like they are social species to me. They are constantly interacting with others of their species. They are not "schooling," but that doesn't rule out social behavior. Seems like a lot is communicated by their color and postures.

I don't know anything about their behavior, but it looks like because they do not have territories that are focused on one spot, like in a substrate spawner, they have moving territories where they like a certain amount of space to themselves--competition for food. But in order to account for that space, and to have them at a more natural density, you would need a much larger tank.


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## gr8Fan (Oct 29, 2009)

Hey guys a little update, the tank has been cycled for a month ready for fish but the bad weather was a surprise. Now IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m stock waiting for this weather to clear up so I can get going.
I was thinking maybe purchasing from the lfs, but they are ABSOLUTELY expensive.


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## gr8Fan (Oct 29, 2009)

Hey guys,

I promise a video and here it is. There was a mix opinions obout a single tropheus set up, ironically I end up with two deferent species in the tank. I introduced the one trph. masawa first then the cherry spot second. At first it didn't work out(D. masawa was 2 1/2" and cherry spot 1 1/2") so I had to pulled the small one out. Then something interesting happens after 4 months I decide to put the cherry spot back into the tank(masawa almost 3 1/2" and cherry spot 2") and now everybody gets along. Very rarely is any chasing go around. Just an update for you guys.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Well who can guess what happens with low numbers of Troph in small tanks? I have a male and female duboisi that live and breed together in a 48" tank. Go figure....... it should not work but sometimes it does. Back up tanks always a good option. :wink:

Do not want to foretell doom but as the two get more similar in size sometimes the larger takes exception to the smaller one. (same species or different) so although two can live in the same 48" tank for a while and even breed together, kind of keep an eye on em. :wink:

All the best James


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