# Help with Bolivian ram: purchase, mate selection, space reqs



## oakleyhoma (Aug 8, 2009)

Hi all, new here and my first post. Two things: first the background and then questions.

Background: I'm beginner/intermediate? Kept fish as a teen, got back in a year or so ago. Have had some success and some failures, have learned some. I've got a 30g long w/ Rena xp3 (seems to work well). The 30g is mature but with only 3 zebra danios after my disaster with previous tetra/cory setup (Lesson: don't buy stock from chain stores and quarantine anything/everything first!). It's low-light (2 wpg, anubias, java ferns, some sunset hygro/stem plants as nitrate sponge). Eco-complete substrate. 
My water (well water): from tap it's about pH 7.2-7.4, no nitrates, trace of P, carbonate hardness about 6, GH about 6. Think this is within a good range for bolivians. I also have a basically empty/sparse 20g and a 10g quarantine tank at my disposal.

My Goal: get the 30g set up anew, pick fish I like, that fit my tank, and that work well with my native tap water. Never have kept a cichlid, but am locked in on Bolivians (they pair, so don't need a harem; they should work with my unmodified water, they're small, seem to be interesting, hardy/less fussy than e.g., blue ram), etc. Looked at other new world cichlids, e.g., cockatoo, etc. but want to go Bolivians. Realize I could try a "crowded" tank of African cichlids, not now. I hope to set up this ram/community fish 30g tank soon.

My desired fauna for the 30: a mated pair of bolivian rams, a bristlenose pleco, a school of some tetras (or rainbowfish?) of body correct body size/shape so as not to "bother" the rams. Not much more than that - maybe an oto or two? Or maybe a swordtail pair (my parameters would seem to work well enough for livebearers, though I plan to set up my 20g tank later with liverbearers). Anyay, I want basically a peaceful community tank, not overcrowded, with some different/interesting fish movements, fish that work with my native, unmodified water, and not overcrowded.

My Qs:

1. What order, bolivans in first and other inhabitants later or vice versa, or does not matter? A dwarf BN pleco would share same bottom space as the rams...

2. Getting rams: I don't have local resources (one or two decent LFS within an hour of here, but no bolivians coming anttime soon-they acquire locally, and not often). So, not wanting to wait 3 months? half year? or longer... wondering about online purchase. I suppose I want farm or owner bred, from the U.S., (i.e., not from southeast asia). I'm looking over aquabid (one shop has some at 1.5 inch), big online retailers (foster smith, etc.), and others (e.g., farms that sell retail in places like Florida, e.g., cichlidstation.com. I'm aware of some of the really quality suppliers such as Jeff Rapps/Tangled up in cichlids and others - but no availability at present. I'd get them shipped overnight.

ANY advice about this would help: is it a bad idea to buy online? From whom? Am I OK provided I ask questions first e.g., DOA guarantee, not SE Asian (hormone and antibiotic treated), fish bred here a few generations so they're more flexible/adaptable, store water parameters not too different from mine, etc.?

3. How to end up with a happy pair?: Seems I'll need to get several at "early maturity" (maybe 2+ inches in size?) , thinking maybe 5 of them, to let them choose mates. So, how much space is needed to house them until a get a clear male/female pair? Will the 30g work? I'm planning on a cubic foot of occupied tank space for the pair to claim as territory. But will there be territorial problems, stress, or lack of ability to pair naturally with 5 bolivians in a 30g? If a 30 is large enough, would that mean with no other fish or does it not matter much? I'd have the spare 20g and 10g for the 3 non-paired fish, until I can trade them off.

Guess that's about it. Looking forward to some answers to those questions.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

G'day *oakleyhoma*,

My first concern is whether any nasties are left in your tank. If you believe the previous inhabitants died from diseases or "bugs" introduced to your tank then you would have to remove everything, wash it (and/or soak it in) with tap water to try and kill any nasties, empty the tank, rinse the substrate and wash out the tank. Also would have to totally detail your filter/s as well. And then cycle the tank all over again.

Otherwise your probably going to introduce new fish into an infected tank.


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## oakleyhoma (Aug 8, 2009)

right, it was simply ick, some bad neon tets back in march. I cranked the the temp high for a week or so, added some aquarium salt. For months, now the tank has had only a couple of happy danios. Did not want to use any copper compound in the tank. The tank is all cleaned up now, but I did not break down/disinfect. Assumed I'd be OK by now with the ick? Thanks


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## oakleyhoma (Aug 8, 2009)

I just got some good advice elsewhere about how to set up for pairing, size requirements, etc. and on safeguarding against any leftover nasties. Now I just need advice regarding my previous question #2 about purchasing when fish aren't available locally.


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## GotTanked (Aug 1, 2009)

Could you share some advice? I stopped by the LFS and saw their Bolivian Ram stock... it looked like it had ich! But generally looked healthy, etc.

I have the exact opposite problem... got a good local source, need help sexing, selecting a pair or how many for my 30g long tank, etc.


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## oakleyhoma (Aug 8, 2009)

You might want to ask your LFS about that. Not sure what advice you want... my understanding is that sexing is difficult and prone to error. If you can identify male and female - some say no problem with pairing if you just get two. Many others however say get several, they need to choose their mate. In a 30g, many sources seem to say two would fit. With a ram-only tank, one credible source told me two pairs could work and that much more interesting behavior could be seen.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Hi there.

A light level of 2 WPG is high and not low lighted. The Java Fern and anubia's can do with lower light levels and you have to be aware there might be some algea on the leaves. The hygrophilia is indeed a very fast growing plant and does need high light levels like 2 WPG. They also need nutritious rich watter. If they start to do poor after a while you might want to consider Egeria densa. Those are more adaptable and grow even faster and are cheap as dirt.

Your tapwater is suitable for most SA cichlid and defenately suitable for Bolivians. Bolivians are hardy fish and perfect for someone new to the hobby but also interesting for the more experienced. They do best in groups of 5 or more but your tank is to tight for it. A pair can give troubles if the male is ready to breed but the female not. In that case it happens that a male chases the female to death or at least stress her out. A number of 3 is always the porest choice one can make. Two fish will bully the weakest all the time. So in your case 4 Bolivians might be the best BUT,.....you need to make plenty of territorial markers so it will be easy for them to make a small territory. I'd say skip the tetras. The 4 bolivians will provide you with plenty of fun. I do recommend a BN for algea control. If you add Oto's never add just 2. They do better in larger groups and minimum number should be 5. Oto's are wonderful funny fish but are delicate if it comes to water qualety. Sword tails, platies and guppies are also fine in your set up. They perfectly handle the lower temps Bolivians need, will do fine in the set up, are hardy and produce live food for the Bolivians :wink: Some of the fry might manage dough but I expect the Bolivians keep the number of fry under control with is a good thing with livebearers.

Jeff is reputable and I expect it will be fine to order from him. Never buy Bolivians smaller as 1 !!! Never buy ill fish! Ich is not dificult to cure but it indicates poor health or a hard time.

Ruurd


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## oakleyhoma (Aug 8, 2009)

Thanks Ruurd, good points. I might consider foregoing e.g., tetras in order to keep two pairs. Someone experienced with them suggested maybe two pairs in order to get more social behavior. Problem is I'm limited to 30g at present. With good territorial markers and no more than a pleco, do you think four really is not exceeding my tank capacity? Also, what did you mean by

--- never buy Bolivians smaller as 1---? Never smaller than one inch size?


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Hi there,



> --- never buy Bolivians smaller as 1---? Never smaller than one inch size?


 sorry forgotten the inch thingy. I indeed advice to buy Bolivians of at least 1 inch in size. I also advice not to buy the SE Asian Bolivians becouse they are often hormone treated and for that mostly infertile.

A Bolivian is a small fish so if it comes to tank volume the 30 gallon will be enough. The problem is that US tanks are often high and narrow. They do contain quit some volume but have a small footprint. Footprint of the tank is very important for cichlids becouse they need room for establishing a territory. If it comes to footprint you will easely fit on pair. Problem is,....Bolivians do so much better in small groups. Thats why I suggested 4 Bolivians. If there are a lot of territorial markers or the bottom of the tank is heavily planted with some open spots they tend to have smaler territories. What are the exact dimensions of your 30 gallon? I read some 30 gallons are 12x24x24. Thats and awful size! Over here a 32 gallon is 15 wide, 32 long and 16 high. No problem fitting 4 or 5 bolivians in there. So it all depends on the exact dimensions of your tank. Sorry I sounded confident but I gues I forgotten abouth the odd US tanks.

I have dificulties to find good qualety healthy tetras over here and I hear the same from people in the US. You just have had some issues so I think it is saver and would be a better start without them. The live bearers like the sword tail are much hardier and might be a nice alternative.


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## oakleyhoma (Aug 8, 2009)

Thanks again Ruurd, my tank is 36 longx12widex16tall, a 432 square inch footprint. The 32g you mentioned is 480 square inches. I am now thinking about having 2 pairs of rams and perhaps a dwarf plecostomus, nothing else. I'd plant heavily with anubias, java fern, crypts, water sprite, and occasional flushes of stem plants - Hygros. If more shading were needed, Egera. I'd try to add markers up to 6-8 inches tall- for example, rocks, a bit more driftwood plus 2-3 caves, probably coconut shell unless I can make something better. A couple of flat rocks with shallow depressions too, one at each end.

So, what do you think? I appreciate your help.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

In that case it is perfectly fine to keep 4 Bolivians in there. :thumb: If you like to have a nice looking small pleco in there,...or maybe two of them I like to point you at Peckoltia species like the L134. They are realy beatifull small pleco's. Unfortunately they are expensive and not that common. Know Idea where you are in the US but I know Larry (apistomaster) does have some fry for sale.

For Bolivians you won't need caves,....only a small open aria and a flat stone where they spawn on. They dig the pits them selves. No wories a breeding pit rarely is 1 inch deep and only 2 to 3 inch in diameter. Most pleco's do apreciate caves dough and a coconut will do perfect.


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## GotTanked (Aug 1, 2009)

Hey oakleyhoma, I hope you don't mind me kinda crashing your thread but seeing as we have mostly identical set-ups...

What kind of lighting will you have for your tank? How many WPG?

It looks like the only other thing I'll need are some flat rocks.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

What type and how many lumens is your light? 2wpg of regular florescent or even CF would be considered low, though the CF at 2wpg could handle your plant selection. T5's would be in a higher range, and might cuase algae issues.


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## oakleyhoma (Aug 8, 2009)

Ok friends,

On my 30g long I have a 36" Current Nova Extreme freshwater with two T5s, rated for 78W. It's the less expensive one with no fans or moonlights, etc. One 39W 6700K and one 10000K daylight bulb. Darned bright, but I run only one bulb, the 6700K (I keep a burnt out bulb in the other socket and use a glass canopy). Its the slightly older version that doesn't have individual reflectors. If you multiply 39W by a factor of 1.4 (to adjust for the brightness of the T5's) I think it comes to 1.8 wpg. That's about what I wanted. I don't do CO2, just excel 2-3 kinds of anubias, java fern and some sunset hygro and H. difformis ?, a water sprite. Even the sunset Hygro does well if I keep up with excel as carbon source (didn't want to get into CO2, though I'm sure the enhanced growth is cool. If I ever do want to do CO2 (probably won't) it'll be 3.6wpg.

I like the light, but I'm also impressed with how well moss, anubias, etc. do on my 10g RCS tank with a simple cheapo hood light- the plants are happy, stay green, no algae whatsoever, they grow someI don't need to do anything with plants in that tank at all.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Okay, so Length+width+hieghtx2=80 ... Which is then divided by the 6700K for a total of 83.75 ... just barely above the no plant threshold (50). This is a way to determine lumen intensity used on plant sites and such becuase the same wattage on MH, T5, T5HO, T8, CF, and regular flo's just isn't the same when compared to each other.

If you ran the 10oooK bulb as well, that becomes a 208.75, which is dead center for moderate lighting (still no need for co2 at that range yet).

I guess it depends on how well your hygro actually grows. If you are experiencing little growth, you could use the 10oooK bulb too. I would imagine the sudden growth spurt of the hygro would more than be enough to keep the algae down.


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## oakleyhoma (Aug 8, 2009)

Ok, thanks for the help. Maybe I"ll try the other bulb and see how it does. Not familiar with the formula you use but I'm not advanced level by any means - too many interests is my problem. I see how you arrive at 80, but the division by 6700K... I don't grasp. Could you explain? And if 208 is my number, really no need for CO2, excel is adequate?


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Don't worry, it took me months to understand the lumen's equation. *lol*

Basically dividing the number of lumens (the K rating) gives you what the lighting is all over at the gravel base of the tank. Hence why the height is doubled ... and why a standard 20 gallon tank needs more wattage than a 20 gallon long ...and why one reason WPG isn't the best.

Instead of trying to explain it myself, I'll post a link to s reprint of the orginal author:

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73446

Remember watts is the measure of enegry a light is using, but lumens is the measure of the actual brightness. Thus a 37 watt T5 bulb puts out the exact same brightness as a 65 watt PC bulb if both are 6700 ratings. Again, why I love the lumen equation as with all the differant sorts of lighting, WPG is a bit antiquated (though still can be usefull).


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## oakleyhoma (Aug 8, 2009)

Dwarfpike - took a quick read. I see I'm quite low with the 6500K, and in the middle of moderate-high, at 206 with bothbulbs. Also, I use a glass top reducing it further. I'll consider using the other bulb.


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