# Sand substrate?



## meedee1209 (Dec 23, 2010)

*What is better?*​
GRAVEL1110.58%SAND9389.42%


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## meedee1209 (Dec 23, 2010)

Considering starting a new tank theme when i buy my larger tank for my two red devils, Was wondering how one cleans Sand substrate?? i think it would look really nice but have never done it before.

also does anyone know how red devils go with sand, Or is gravel a better option?


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

meedee1209 said:


> Was wondering how one cleans Sand substrate??


http://www.cichlid-forum.com/videos/cleaning_sand.php


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## michelle_rutledge23 (Dec 5, 2010)

I just started a 55 gallon tank and went with black tahitian moon sand and a black background and it looks awesome, but it requires a LOT of maintenance if you don't want to see the fish waste all over the surface all the time. I love it, but just a forewarning.


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## limpert (Aug 28, 2007)

PFS


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## iwishihadmorefish (Jan 3, 2011)

i used pool filter sand or play sand both are around 5$ for a 50lb bag and do the same as the lfs sand but are cheaper anyways good luck


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## dzydvl33 (Sep 17, 2010)

+1 for the pool filter sand. I have it in my 135 Malawi. The fish love it they get mouthfuls of it carry it up, spit it out and let it rain down, looks really cool.


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## Chubbs the Jellybean (Jun 16, 2009)

+10 on PFS, it's very easy to clean, super cheap (pool supply stores), looks natural, and doesn't get sucked up my syphon (I can sink my syphon into the sand and clean it like it's gravel after I suck the small bits of poo off the surface)

It just makes sense if you want to have a beautiful tank :thumb:


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## benny71 (Sep 30, 2010)

The only advantage(s) for gravel I can think of is it is a lot easier to vacuum and it doesn't get sucked up into HOBs.

With that being said, it's a lot easier for detritus to accumulate in gravel.

IMO, even if there were more benefits to gravel, I'd still pick sand over gravel just because of aesthetics.


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## fourtanks (Jun 9, 2010)

Does PFS affect the pH? Does it raise and buffer it like calcium carbonate cichlid substrate does?


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## benny71 (Sep 30, 2010)

fourtanks said:


> Does PFS affect the pH? Does it raise and buffer it like calcium carbonate cichlid substrate does?


No.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Sand with silica may increase diatom growth.


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## Bruce Haynes (Sep 8, 2010)

Well I will be the one dissenting opinion. Sand sucks. It looks nice for a week or two then it it gets gross. It is **** hard to clean, never looks as good as it first did, it gets in the impeller and is generally a HUGE pain. I had converted to sand thinking everyone's opinion was better than mine, but I was wrong. I have switched back to gravel and couldn't be happier. Sand--PFS or PS is way more work. and quickly starts to look like **** in no time. I still have 3 tanks left with sand and cannot wait to get rid of that ugly substrate. Sand is cheap, and you get what you pay for.


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## hbbyhorse (Oct 15, 2010)

I think it depends on how much time you are willing to invest in your tank(s). I have gravel in my 30g and sand in the rest, I just removed the PFS in the 75g due to diatoms and replaced it with boiled river sand, it looks more natural, and I can already see a difference in the plants, plus, the fish can still grab a mouthful and spit it out with no problems.


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## drexel187 (Dec 22, 2010)

Hello, I have a 125 with moon sand and a black background and I love it. I recently added a powerhead and it blows the debris around and it gets sucked into my filters quite nicely. Be careful when cleaning the glass near the sand though, the sand will scratch the glass. I learned that the hard way. Ever seen a grown man cry? lol.


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## Nina_b (Jan 3, 2011)

I'm a gravel girl, myself. Nice, small, river-rock like miniature pebbles are wonderfully attractive, and they come in all sizes mixed together, including little enough chunks that my fish get to pick them up and carry them around (or pick up a whole mouthful and deposit it on my rocks). That, and considering my rocks are all river rocks makes for a really nice look over all - lots of sand substrate just never 'matches' the rocks in the aquarium with it.

I don't know about ease of cleaning, carefully vacuuming out gravel is a time consuming job. Just swishing your vacuum over sand seems so much faster, but I haven't ever really tried it myself.

Go for what you feel like. There are seemingly good reasons for either. You've never had sand, it's not expensive, it's easy to vacuum out - give it a try


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## RRasco (Aug 31, 2006)

Bruce Haynes said:


> Well I will be the one dissenting opinion. Sand sucks. It looks nice for a week or two then it it gets gross. It is darn hard to clean, never looks as good as it first did, it gets in the impeller and is generally a HUGE pain. I had converted to sand thinking everyone's opinion was better than mine, but I was wrong. I have switched back to gravel and couldn't be happier. Sand--PFS or PS is way more work. and quickly starts to look like #%$& in no time. I still have 3 tanks left with sand and cannot wait to get rid of that ugly substrate. Sand is cheap, and you get what you pay for.


The sand is hard to clean and the gravel is not? It may not appear so, but with gravel fish and food waste builds up between the gravel, where the sand it will build up on top, making it easier to clean off. If you do not maintain your tank well enough, or the filtration is not up to par, it may be unattractive to the eye. I'm not saying you don't clean your tank enough or your filtration isn't good enough, but I have sand in 8 tanks and it doesn't look gross at all, so I don't know why you have that problem.

I use pool filter sand. $7 for 50lbs.

This sand has been in here about 3 years, and that is my tank dirty.









This is about 9 months.


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## Bruce Haynes (Sep 8, 2010)

I stick to my opinion...sand looks like **** after a very short time. My siphon sucks up both PFS and PS. Also my tanks aren't filled with rocks so you can actually see most of the bottom. It is easy to clean gravel. I have 12 tanks and do water changes in all of them every week. I just changed another tank out from sand to gravel last night. One left and then I am done. $30 and I never have to replace it again.


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## RRasco (Aug 31, 2006)

As that's your opinion, there is nothing wrong with that. Just wanted to show that sand doesn't look like trash after a few weeks in every tank.


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## bpman25 (Oct 21, 2010)

I had used strictly gravel up until my newest setup, I used the medium grade all purpose sand fom a hardware store, got 100 lbs. for about 6 bucks. It is so easy to clean and looks great, maybe it is just me but my fish seem to really feel at home scooping up sand looking for food or digging little pits, with the medium grade sand after a good washing I have had no issues with it getting sucked into the filter at all. I will go with sand on my display tanks from now on.


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## Bruce Haynes (Sep 8, 2010)

Everyone's taste is different...what works well for one may not work well for another. I am glad sand is working for you...just wasn't cutting it for me.

Peace....out :thumb:


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## punman (Oct 24, 2003)

I used gravel back in the '70s - then got out of fish for a time, then started 7 years ago with gravel again.
Saw forums like this where many said sand so I changed a gravel tank to sand.
Loved it and now have not used gravel in 6 years.

Gravel looks fine but is not clean. Take a couple of buckets of gravel out of a year old gravel tank and see the dirty mess.
Debris on the sand stays on top and gets eventually sucked into the filter.


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## 60gallon (Dec 14, 2010)

Gravel is so '90s. :? j/k


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## jimmie (Oct 23, 2002)

I also have sand in my tanks ,its great for me,my fish love it ,also easy to clean ,gravel holds dirt in the bottom


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## trigger (Sep 6, 2002)

Nothing beats sand  Off course substrate requirements vay per species. Some Malawi species even need sand to stay healthy, the sand sifters. I had gravel in some tanks, but changed to sand in all but one tank, and the sand is ready for tha one also. Just need some time to do it.

I don't like the look af gravel, but that is personal.
Gravel gives you a false feeling, because it just hides the dirt underneath, whikle the sand just reminds you it's time to clean your tank.


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## lelandgray (Jan 19, 2011)

I'm going with sand in my 55gal setup. But, now I'm wondering if I should take my sand back to PetSmart (I got the bagged sand that's meant for marine and cichlid tanks) and just go get PFS. The sand I got was on sale for $15/20lb back, and I bought two. But, if I can get a 50lb back of PFS for $5-7, that'll same me some cash.

So, should I just stick with what I've got or return it and get PFS?


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## Cromak (Dec 29, 2010)

I was just having this debate in another thread. The PFS will most likely give you Diatoms. I would spend the extra cash and stick with the Cichlid sand. That is what im currently using in my tank and *** had no problems with it. I've also considered siwtching over to the PFS because its cheap and am going to be switching to a larger tank and wanted to use a natural looking sand color. Right now im using the black/white cichlid mix..

But the more and more i hear of people having problems with Diatoms the more i want to spend the extra cash and not deal with them..

Also, id get another bag, usually you want 1lb of sand per gallon. I put 60 pounds in my 55g.


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## lelandgray (Jan 19, 2011)

Cromak said:


> Also, id get another bag, usually you want 1lb of sand per gallon. I put 60 pounds in my 55g.


I've heard this, too. However, I have a 3D background that takes up anywhere from 3" to 6" of the bottom of the tank (irregular stacked rock), so I don't have the entire surface area to cover as if I had a 100% bare bottom of a tank to cover.

Here's a pic:


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## Tshethar (Jul 20, 2009)

I don't have much investment in this issue, but I'm wary of too quickly accepting what many people repeat about PFS or PS leaching silica that leads to diatom blooms. From what I can tell, this may be one of those things in the hobby that gets perpetuated by 1) well-intentioned people who have been trying to figure out why they have had a bloom in their tank; 2) manufacturers (and LFS employees) who make and sell specially formulated substrates that are of marginal value in comparison.

Here's one quick link I found that attempts a counterargument; I'm sure there are others that might be better--food for thought anyway: http://www.reefs.org/library/article/r_toonen9.html

Back on topic, I've had mixed results with play sand myself, though I think it has a lot to do with the other variables in the system. (I too was a gravel guy back in the '90s. 8) :lol: )

In my 55 with low light, sandsifters, a thin layer, and very good circulation, it's worked great. Recently I added sponge prefilters to my intakes, which keeps more of it away from my impellers. Couldn't be happier.

In my 120, I've had some algae and cyanobacteria issues with my sand, probably more to do with the lighting intensity and spectra I've experimented with, along with temps from my circulating pump. It's a deep tank on a tall stand, and even with a circulating powerhead I have trouble getting the waste into overflows, and it's a pain to stand on a ladder and try to find the sweet spot for siphoning crud off the sand bed in such a deep tank. Vacuuming gravel would be easier.

So, I can sympathize with people who have had both kinds of experience. I voted for sand but it ain't always worry-free.


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## Cromak (Dec 29, 2010)

*** read that article before, good article. I guess you just need to go from peoples experience first hand with it. Especially those who say they used PFS and had diatom blooms, then switched to a cichlid sand and never had any issues with Diatom blooms. You would have to suspect at that point the only cause would be the PFS..

I still may give it a try anyways, its cheap enough to test it out. Just will be a pain to have to change everything out of i start having blooms.


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## Hanafuda (Mar 31, 2010)

I'm not voting since I have the same interest in the question as the OP. No experience with sand. Seems like the ultimate substrate for africans. I'm a little skeptical that it is proper for an oscar tank or other large cichlids. THoughts?


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## punman (Oct 24, 2003)

I have not had any issues with play sand or pool filter sand.
I only buy "pet store" sand if I am looking for something unique - like black and white mix. The other stuff is just fine.


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## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

Maybe there should be a poll on who uses PFS ,how long their tanks have been running,and if they are experiencing diatoms,
Perhaps PFS's vary in composition and some have higher soluble silica compounds,such as aluminosilicates - dont really know
I find it interesting that Rob Toonens article Sept.18 1999 speaks of sea water around sandy beaches he speaks of has a concentration of 2 ppm silica... and thats in an ocean,also find it interesting that he had to correct himself twice about wrong info he received but did not do enough investigation before posting it on the internet for the world to see


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## Cromak (Dec 29, 2010)

*** been doing some more research and have come across some people who have said they sell two different types of PFS, one with silica and the other that "doesn't cause algae" is the way it was put, so im assuming no silica? I have yet to find how true that is or the actual bag. I'm going to check it out today at the pool store then compare it to the ones at home depot.


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## humsuplou (Nov 26, 2007)

Moved my old Caribsea Aragonite sand from my old 80g tank to the new 150g. 20lbs of the old one, and I added 30 lbs, so the total is around 50 lbs of the aragonite. My new tank is still cloudy after 3 days. Im using a FX5 filter. Is that normal? Or I need to do something to remove the cloudyness?


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## Cromak (Dec 29, 2010)

What i did when i just put fresh sand in my tank was rinse it the best i could outside of the tank, then filled the tank up half way and stirred up the sand then sucked all the water out so it was really dirty. Then i ended up filling the tank all the way up, still a bit cloudy, empty it again then filled it back up again. Took about 1 1/2 days to become crystal clear and i know it cleaned the sand pretty well.. Lot of wasted water but it worked.


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## jimmie (Oct 23, 2002)

lelandgray said:


> I'm going with sand in my 55gal setup. But, now I'm wondering if I should take my sand back to PetSmart (I got the bagged sand that's meant for marine and cichlid tanks) and just go get PFS. The sand I got was on sale for $15/20lb back, and I bought two. But, if I can get a 50lb back of PFS for $5-7, that'll same me some cash.
> 
> So, should I just stick with what I've got or return it and get PFS?


return it and get pfs or play sand,saves you some cash works the same I have play sand in both of my tanks,


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## Cromak (Dec 29, 2010)

you have diatom issues?


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## xt-550 (Dec 6, 2008)

I have Pebble Sheen in both my tanks,and I love it.Little bit bigger than sand,but not as big as gravel.It used to be called 3m quartz,20 to 30 bucks depending on color for a 60lb bag.Used for in-ground pools.


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## wheatbackdigger (May 11, 2008)

Gave up on sand along time ago for the same reasons as Bruce. Got tired of the headaches and really didn't care for the looks of it. My fish don't care either way. They still reproduce and look magnificant. Neither option is the "best". It really is a personal preference.


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## londonloco (Mar 31, 2011)

xt-550 said:


> I have Pebble Sheen in both my tanks,and I love it.Little bit bigger than sand,but not as big as gravel.It used to be called 3m quartz,20 to 30 bucks depending on color for a 60lb bag.Used for in-ground pools.


Where did you get the Pebble Sheen. I'm out of my 3M color quartz...


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## BigRedZeus (Dec 16, 2012)

:- :fish: HI all. My name is Felicita and I just joined this forum. I recently rescued an 11.5-12" male Red Devil Cichlid. I was searching for the answer to substrate "sand or gravel" and came upon this forum. I thought I would tell you how I resolved my question about substrate.

In my research, there are (as was also the case in this forum) pros and cons in the sand vs. gravel debate. I've read quite a bit to educate myself, and what I currently have in the tank is natural smooth polished river gravel. I 'was' thinking of converting to sand, but in all that I have read it seems that gravel is easier on the filtration system.

I have two fluvals a 305 and a 306 for filtration on my 75 gallon tank. I keep about 1/2" of gravel covering the bottom of the tank. This makes it SUPER easy to siphon-clean the tank which I do about every 3 days. Zeus is a super messy boy! In terms of messiness, I find Zeus to be equal on with my Oranda goldfish!

While gravel does allow for particulate matter to settle between the tiny open spaces, it generally always looks nice. Sinking food is easier for fish to spot on sand however, but I really don't care for the look of the poop sitting on the surface of sand and other debris. Certain "live" sands are a different matter entirely and their purpose is not just aesthetic. There is also the off chance that a piece of gravel can get caught in your fishes throat with gravel. I do not know if this holds true for Zeus, given his size, but it is most certainly true for smaller fish. SAFETY FIRST!

Sand vs. Gravel for me was resolved when I read in this forum that sand got into an impeller. That right there ended the pros/cons ping pong match in my mind. I want to protect my filtration system as it is the life source for my fish family. However, I am still stuck as to if sand is actually "better" for Zeus. I have not read an article yet that suggests this to be the case.

Zeus LOVES decorating his tank and rearranging his gravel. In addition, he has SMOOTH larger (fist sized) rocks in his tank. Because he is very active and I saw him attack one of his old lava-type rocks and scrape his lip on it, I took away most of his original rocks and replaced them with smooth rocks.

Zeus has not complained to me about his gravel and seems quite happy with it as one of his play toys. I also recently put in some large bubble stones. He acted as though he had no idea what those bubbles were and refused to go into that end of the tank for 4 days. However, now they have become a toy and he plays with them quite a bit. I will add a second large bubble stone to the other end of his tank here shortly. I try to do things slowly with him to prevent stress.

His personality is aggressive to be certain UNTIL he is challenged by something. Then he becomes timid and fearful. I've seen him lose his color and refuse to eat for days a couple of times. The first was when he was pulled from his 29 gallon tank and moved into this 75 gallon (Yes I know it should be bigger but his environment is 1000% improved over what it was. Eventually I will house him in a 120 but funds will determine that event.) The second time I saw that behavior is when he lost a fight with the siphon. He was highly agitated on this particular day and as the siphon was pulling up gravel he attacked it repeatedly. This went on for quite a while. I pulled the siphon out, waited a bit and tried again. In all it took 4 hours to clean his tank which normally takes about 10 minutes. It was NOT his first experience with the siphon either. He exhausted himself and for 4 days refused food and sulked.

The other thing I have done is to add a cave for this big boy. I think 'eventually' I will build him a cave of natural rock, but for instant cave, I purchased at my local Goodwill for $4, a small collapsible plastic stepstool. It is closed on 3 sides and the front end remains "always" open. It has open spaces on the sides and back which he can see out and he has just learned to get completely sideways to go in an out of the side viewing ports. NOOOOO.. it is not attractive, but he loves it! When he is happy I am happy! He can turn around completely in it and it is SAFE, nontoxic, no rough edges, sturdy (i have put a large flat granite stepping stone on top of it to hold it down as it is a bit floaty.) I'm now searching for a medium sized ball that will hang on the bottom but move at the slightest touch. I just have a sneaking suspicion that he would push it around his tank and turn it into a toy. Any ideas?

While many people are looking for beauty for their viewing pleasure (that would be my Oranda tank), I truly am looking for a tank that is more like a fish play pen for Zeus. Since he is a single fish, any suggestions on things that he would find entertaining are very welcome.


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## matt121966 (Mar 6, 2012)

I deleted my own ********* comments.

it was a goodie, but prob not treasured by all.


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## du3ce (Sep 11, 2012)

i have both, best of both world


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