# Underground jet system project underway



## LowCel (Apr 6, 2004)

I just started my underground jet system a few minutes ago so I thought I would post my progress. This is the first one I have ever done so I am keeping my fingers crossed. I have asked fmueller quite a few questions and have spent way too much time on his website. Hopefully everything will work out.

The first thing I did was cut some pieces of 3/4" pvc about 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" long to use as the jets. After they were cut I boiled them for about five minutes.










Once they had been boiling for about five minutes I took them out one at a time. I placed one end in a union to keep it from mis-shaping then I smashed the other end with a pair of channel locks.










Once I finished them I started working in the tank. I used 1" pvc out of the overflow and down to the bottom of the tank. There I reduced the pipe down to 3/4" and started laying out the system.

So far I have done the right half of the tank.


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## cevvin (May 2, 2008)

How big is this tank... general rule is 100 gph through each nozzle, your going to push 2600 gph through these?

But... very curious as how it turns out, are you planning on dying?


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## LowCel (Apr 6, 2004)

I have it pretty close then, I have 25 nozels and my return pump should do between 2,000 and 2,500 gph after accounting for the head height. I am using a reeflo dart as the return pump.

The tank is 300 gallons.

I am planning on dying the pipes going up the back but I am going to leave the ones on the bottom white. It will be less obvious than black with the natural looking sand. I may epoxy some sand on them though.

Here are some pictures after I did the other side.


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## navycigarsmoker (Aug 11, 2006)

What are you using to power the UGJ. I see that you have the pipe on the left side going up and I have seen that on a few tanks but I am not sure what everybody is using to push the water.

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.


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## CHBGator (Oct 5, 2006)

cevvin said:


> How big is this tank... general rule is 100 gph through each nozzle, your going to push 2600 gph through these?
> 
> But... very curious as how it turns out, are you planning on dying?


Just curious but when did that rule come about?


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## gmaschke (Aug 23, 2008)

I don't know but I count 22 divide that byt 2600 and even if that were the general rule this should be generally close enough to it. :lol:


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## gmaschke (Aug 23, 2008)

By the way I saw this post earlier and made no comment but as I did a w/c on my 135g and vac. up all the crud I kept thinking about your thread, I may have to copy it some day. Can't wait to see it work :thumb:


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## LowCel (Apr 6, 2004)

gmaschke said:


> I don't know but I count 22 divide that byt 2600 and even if that were the general rule this should be generally close enough to it. :lol:


I'm pretty sure there were 24 or 25 but I could be wrong. If I get really bored later I might try to count them. 

First I have to fix some leaks though.


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## LowCel (Apr 6, 2004)

navycigarsmoker said:


> What are you using to power the UGJ. I see that you have the pipe on the left side going up and I have seen that on a few tanks but I am not sure what everybody is using to push the water.
> 
> Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.


I am using a reeflo dart pump for the return pump.


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## navycigarsmoker (Aug 11, 2006)

I'm kind of stupid when it comes to things like that could you explain how it works and if I could use the return on my xp3 to do the same thing


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## cevvin (May 2, 2008)

LowCel said:


> gmaschke said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know but I count 22 divide that byt 2600 and even if that were the general rule this should be generally close enough to it. :lol:
> ...


Thought I counted 26. I was told (and read several threads) that the general rule was 100gph per nozzle.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

I am surprised no one has said anything about the nozzles. They are too crimped off. You will get hardly any flow out of those. I would do it again and leave a bigger opening. You are not looking to squash them shut. Think of it as trying to convert the circle shaped PVC into an oval shape.

100GPH is the number that is thrown around on this forum with all of the thousands of other intangible rules of thumb.

I would have also recommended dyeing all of the pipe black. I think you will regret not dyeing all of it. I did the same thing by leaving the jets white because I had a light colored sand. But I ended up dyeing them black and it looked a lot better. When you leave them white they stick out like a sore thumb. It ends up looking like PVC pipe sticking out of your sand. Likewise for when any of the buried PVC gets uncovered.

Also, why did you use 3/4" pipe instead of 1/2"? That outer diameter of 3/4" PVC pipe is pretty substantial. You will need to use a pretty thick sand bed to cover it - which in my experience is not a desirable thing.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

:-? Well :-? 
Hows it going?


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

I love these step-by-step picture-based threads.

As someone who is "on the fence" about UGJ on my next tank, I too am curious to know how things are going...

kevin


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## LowCel (Apr 6, 2004)

The system seems to work very well. I ended up painting it all the same color as the sand, looks much better than it would have if I had done it black. I'll try to do one in an oval and see if it increased the flow very much. If so then I can replace them pretty easily since I didn't glue them. I'm looking forward to trying it out, more flow is always a good thing. 

Here are a couple of pictures of them now.










Ignore the one piece of pvc that is laying on top of the sand.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

LowCel said:


> If so then I can replace them pretty easily since I didn't glue them.


Unless you fastened the pipes to the bottom of the tank its pretty hard to modify them when the sand is already in the tank without having the pipes lift off the bottom of the tank. And at that point it is hard to get them back down into the sand once you have water in the tank.

Its hard to tell from the last pic, but if you didn't put water in the tank I recommend making 100% sure you are happy with the UGJ before filling the tank.


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## LowCel (Apr 6, 2004)

It wasn't any problem removing them and inserting oval nozzles at all. Unfortunately it didn't work nearly as well though. It provided a little more flow to the two nozzles that I switched but it really hurt the flow of the other nozzles. I switched it back to the way it was originally.

I have had water in the tank for about 1 1/2 weeks now.


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## klumsyninja (Aug 14, 2008)

Dude, good job. Looks awesome! well done and all that... can't wait to see it with fish!

I'm going to be doing this with my 5' 112 tank, can't wait.

Thanks for posting


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## redstallion02 (Jan 17, 2008)

Looks great that is for sure. But like others said if you ever go to take them out to change the flow be careful not to lift up on the system.

I let my fiance change the water on my tank and she pulled up on the tube trying to do soething, I am still not sure what she was trying to do and I have not been able to get the PVC covered since.


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## I3lazd (Dec 29, 2008)

Is there a reason that you did an open loop system instead of a closed, I think the closed loop does a little better. Here is a pic of how we did my buddies tank.


















I also was under the impression you need a min. of 150gph with 200gph preferred per jet is required. We did 4 jets for each closed loop system with a 750 gph pump, it works amazing we put it into the bathtub to see how it worked and it swirled the whole tub no prob. We did 2 closed loop systems w/ the 4 jet set-up on each for a 125g. The tank will be set-up this week i will have him post pics of it in action.


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## LowCel (Apr 6, 2004)

I am trying to keep the inside of the tank as clean as possible so I don't want any hardware in there. I am hoping that all of my equipment will stay in the sump (except the pump which is external). So far I am pretty happy with the way it performs.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

LowCel said:


> I am trying to keep the inside of the tank as clean as possible so I don't want any hardware in there. I am hoping that all of my equipment will stay in the sump (except the pump which is external). So far I am pretty happy with the way it performs.


 What about replacing the tank bottom with untempered glass and drilling it? That way there would be no visible hardware in the tank.


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## LowCel (Apr 6, 2004)

Mcdaphnia said:


> LowCel said:
> 
> 
> > I am trying to keep the inside of the tank as clean as possible so I don't want any hardware in there. I am hoping that all of my equipment will stay in the sump (except the pump which is external). So far I am pretty happy with the way it performs.
> ...


On a brand new 300 gallon tank that hasn't even had a fish in it (besides a goldfish)? You go right ahead, I'm not though. For what it's worth the bottom is untempered since it is already drilled. 

I'm happy with the way that it performs. :dancing:

There is no way I am going to tear down the 300, tear down the 210, tear apart all of the plumbing, drain and move both tanks, and call over a bunch of friends to give up a day to help me. Especially since I am already happy with it the way it is.


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## iceblue (Apr 27, 2004)

LowCel said:


> For what it's worth the bottom is untempered since it is already drilled.


Having a hole in a piece of glass is not necessarily a good indicator that it is non tempered. I have ordered and installed 1/2" tempered glass for Kern County with pass through slots and and speaker holes as part of the design. The factory pre-drills and cuts the glass to specification before it goes through the annealing process to temper it. As a matter of fact they have to oversize the glass and holes a bit because it shrinks a little during the tempering process.


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## LowCel (Apr 6, 2004)

According to glass cages it is not tempered.


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## I3lazd (Dec 29, 2008)

so you never answered my question on the closed loop question? Why did you go open loop instead of a closed?


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## LowCel (Apr 6, 2004)

I3lazd said:


> so you never answered my question on the closed loop question? Why did you go open loop instead of a closed?


I did answer it.

I am trying to keep the inside of the tank as clean as possible so I don't want any hardware in there. I am hoping that all of my equipment will stay in the sump (except the pump which is external). So far I am pretty happy with the way it performs.


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## iceblue (Apr 27, 2004)

LowCel said:


> According to glass cages it is not tempered.


Always a good thing to know. :thumb:


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## I3lazd (Dec 29, 2008)

maybe you dont understand my question. If you look at my system the PVC is all linked together in a closed loop system as to where yours doesn't loop around in the pvc it just dumps out of the jets and cant return to recirculate in the system, I am not referring to how we put the pump in the tank but rather the closed loop. I assume since you dont know what im talking about you probably wont have a good answer.


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## LowCel (Apr 6, 2004)

I3lazd said:


> maybe you dont understand my question. If you look at my system the PVC is all linked together in a closed loop system as to where yours doesn't loop around in the pvc it just dumps out of the jets and cant return to recirculate in the system, I am not referring to how we put the pump in the tank but rather the closed loop. I assume since you dont know what im talking about you probably wont have a good answer.


Then I guess there is no need to even try is there. Just for the heck of it though, why don't you research "closed loop". :lol:

Closed loop is taking the water directly out of a tank, into an external pump, directly back into the tank. There is no way to overflow with it if the power goes out since it is a "closed loop".

I've been around this hobby way too long to be smarted off by someone on the internet that doesn't even know what a closed loop is.

Maybe you could also tell fmueller that he did his wrong. http://www.fmueller.com/home/aquaristic/240g/technology/filtration/the-ugj-system/

Here is the definition from wikipedia. Another method is the closed loop in which water is pulled from the main tank into a pump which returns the water back into the aquarium via one or more returns to create water turbulence.

Here is a closed loop. http://www.melevsreef.com/closedloop.html










Here is another good link. http://www.aquaristsonline.com/blog/aqu ... that-then/

"There is one option which I believe stands out above the crowd though and that is one which is called closed loop.

Closed loop circulation is where the device which creates the waterflow is housed external to the aquarium, quite often beneath the aquarium, however it can be placed anywhere. Rigid or flexible tubing is connected to the device which connected to both the inlet and outlet of the device which both go to the aquarium.

A lot of aquarists who use closed loop circulation opt to drill the aquarium and use bulkhead connectors and taps to connect the external device to the aquarium, however you do not need to do this if you donâ€™t want to - you can go up and over the edge of the aquarium if that is easier for you.

Basically what you are doing is allowing water to be pulled from the aquarium to the external device, we will use a external water pump for this example. This pump then pushes the water along the output back into the aquarium and whilst doing this pulls more water behind it.

Now here is the good thing. In a closed loop circulation system there is no air in the pipes which means that there is no head height plus as the pump is external to the aquarium there is no heat transfer from the pump to the aquarium water.

You can setup as many closed loop as you want however each one will require itâ€™s own dedicated pump. A huge benefit of this is that with clever plumbing you can take water from the aquarium from exactly where you want it to be taken plus you can return it to an area in the tank where you want it to be returned to.

One thing I must point out though is that if you do decide to opt for a closed loop system then I would recommend that you install close off taps to both the inlet and outlet areas of the plumbing. Doing this will allow you to remove the pump it either it requires maintenance or replacement."


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## I3lazd (Dec 29, 2008)

never mind you took my question out of context and got mad I was just saying if you dont understand what i'm asking you cant very well answer and I never said you did yours wrong all I did was ask why you did it like that and not a closed system like we built i.e. if there were any advantages to how you did over how we did. I'm sorry if you were offended but you dot need to be rude about it I wasnt putting you down in any way. And you could build a closed loop cicruit and still have an overflow, dont be so hostile my god man you are on a public forum I am trying to learn. I didn't "smart off" so whatever quite trying to be pc tough.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

Sometimes we overestimate the sudelty of communication skills.

LowCel, while that is a definition of a closed loop system, in the example you used notice they are not talking about UGJ. That definition is not the same thing when talking about UGJ.

When discussing UGJ you can call a design open or closed loop. In an open loop design the pipe under the substrate has two ends, one is the input from the pump and the other is a capped off dead end. The pipe does not create a loop and is therefore called open loop. In a close loop design the pipe under the substrate has only one end - the input from the pump. There is not capped off dead end, but rather the pipe is a complete "loop". Hence, closed loop.

This is common terminology for discussing UGJ designs.

If you do a search on this forum for closed loop you will see that some people believe that a closed loop UGJ design is better than an open loop design. One of the main ideas is that there is more uniformity in the output flow of each jet in a closed loop system.


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## I3lazd (Dec 29, 2008)

Thanks for breaking it down to laymens terms for him Boredatwork :thumb: He really needed to have that explained to him. So as I said since you dont understand the question you cannot very well answer the question.


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## LowCel (Apr 6, 2004)

So what you are saying is that apparently I'm the one that needs to go do some research. :? Fair enough. Sorry about that I3lazd.

Now if you two will excuse me I am going to go pull my foot out of my mouth so I will be able to get some work done on my sump.


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## I3lazd (Dec 29, 2008)

well GL with the rest of your build :thumb:


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## Louis123 (Jun 13, 2004)

Well guys,

LowCel is right, he has water returning from his sump to his tank through the undergravel jets..

On the other hand, he is being asked why he did not use a closed loop like another guy did (wich was returning tank water into the tank).

So LowCel thought it was not really appropriate since his method is for water returning from the sump, and the other method is just for water circulation...

But I agree, the water returning from the sump could return in a closed loop (design wise) I guess its just misunderstanding from both of you guys !


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## LowCel (Apr 6, 2004)

Well I decided that I am going to do a closed loop on this system. Not the ugj loop, but the closed loop involving a dedicated pump. It is already doing pretty well but I think it can do a lot better. I decided to order a new "little" pump to power just the ugj system. I'm just hoping the fish will still be able to swim!!! :fish:

The pump should be here early next week.


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## LowCel (Apr 6, 2004)

Just received an e-mail back from reeflo. It looks like the dart is currently putting out about 1,600 gph through the ugj system. The new pump is going to put out aproximately 3,000 gallons through the ugj system.

I will be switching the dart over to a diy spray bar that will be putting out approximately 1,800 gph. That will allow the tank to be filtered approximately six times per hour. The overall turnover rate of the tank should be about 16 times per hour unless I need to dial it down using ball valves.

I shouldn't have too much of a problem with debris and waste settling on the sand.


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## LowCel (Apr 6, 2004)

Here is the plan for the return plumbing that will be going into the ugj system.










Here is the plan for the drain from the tank to the pump.










Here is my shopping list. 

2-- 1.5" --T
10-- 1.5" --90's
2-- 2" --90
1-- 1.5" --90 Street Ell
1-- 1.5" --slip to male threaded adapter
1-- 1.5" --female threaded caps
1-- 1.5" --slip on caps
1-- 1.5" --unions (removable)
1-- 1.5" --union ball valve (one sided)
1-- 1.5" --couplings (not removable)
1-- 2" --ball valve
1-- 1.5" --ball valve
2-- 1.5 - 1" --reducers 1.5" to 1"
1-- 2 - 1.5" --reducers 2" to 1.5"
10-- 1" --90
4-- 1" --couplings (not removable)
4-- 1" --unions (removable)
2-- 1" --union ball valve (one sided)
4-- 1 - .75" --reducers 1" to .75"
4-- 1" --90
2-- 1" --T
2-- 1" --couplings (not removable)
4-- .75" --45's
8-- .75" --90's
2-- .75" --caps
1-- 3' or 4' --2" pvc pipe
2-- pieces --.75" pvc
3-- pieces --1" pvc
2-- pieces --1.5" pvc


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

I think an external pump for an UGJ system is the better way to go. It eliminates several cons of UGJ.


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## LowCel (Apr 6, 2004)

It already had an external pump powering it, this one is just in a closed loop. The other one was my primary return pump. Not sure if that is what you mean or not though.


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## LowCel (Apr 6, 2004)

boredatwork said:


> I think an external pump for an UGJ system is the better way to go. It eliminates several cons of UGJ.


Just wanted to let you know that I took your advice. I received the pump and plumbed the closed loop for the ugj system. I must say that I am very happy with the way it works. It provides the exact amount of flow that I was after. Not so much that the fish get blown all over the place yet enough that it keeps anything from settling down on the sand. I have absolutely no waste or food on the substrate.

Here is a picture of the new reeflo blackfin 3600 pump. The reeflo dart is right beside it.










Here is the plumbing going up the side of the tank. Unfortunately I did not leave enough room behind the tank for the plumbing so this was my only option.










Here is the plumbing on top of the tank for the return to the tank.


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## Franchise (May 11, 2009)

Where did u buy ur piping from ?.. i wanna try the same thing


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## LowCel (Apr 6, 2004)

I picked mine up at Lowes. Any home improvement store should have it.


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## ChuckSlayer (May 8, 2009)

Coat your nozzles with PVC glue and roll them around in your substrateâ€¦Your jets will blend in.. Works good with sand.


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## LowCel (Apr 6, 2004)

Yep, would work great. I'm removing mine though. I had a problem with my reeflo blackfin 3600 pump springing a leak and flooding a couple of rooms on me. I am getting plenty of movement with the reeflo dart return pump going to two spray bars so I will be fine without the ugj system.


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## matt121966 (Mar 6, 2012)

new to this forum, but I agree the step by step photos are awesome.

thanks.


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