# Potentially serious fungal or columnaris outbreak - help



## psamona (Nov 6, 2012)

Hi Everyone,

I apologize for the long post and greatly value your help. I have a serious fungal (best case scenario) or columnaris outbreak that has me very worried. My 90 gallon tank is predominantly occupied by Central/South American cichlids. A few weeks ago I had to give my Pacu away because he grew far too large for the tank. When that happened, some of the dynamics began to shift because I removed the alpha. My Wolf Cichlid started to pick fights with the larger Oscar on a few occasions. I bought a large piece of Mopani driftwood to add more separation to the tank but didn't get around to putting it in. The Wolf got pretty beat up and ended up losing quite a few fins, especially in the gill area. During this time I kept the water well filtered and maintained.

Last weekend (11/2) I noticed that the wounds on the Wolf got infected and that he had white, cloudy legions appear all over his body. I did some research which led me to think that it was a bad fungal outbreak or columnaris. I began the following treatment regime afterwards:

*Treatment Schedule*
•	Friday 11/2 - Melafix/Pimafix
•	Saturday 11/3 - 70% water change followed by Melafix, Pimafix and aquarium salts. The temperature was reduced to ~74 degrees in the event that this is columnaris, but I know cooler temps also promote fungal growth. I removed carbon from my two hang on tank filters and completely disconnected my canister filter. I had a one day supply of Maracyn 1 and Maracyn 2 on hand that I administered as well. The instructions said that I was supposed to double up on the antibiotics the first day, then use the normal dosage for days 2 - 5, but unfortunately I did not have any more on-hand and figured this was better than nothing.
•	Sunday 11/4 - Maracyn 2 (to treat gram negative strains like columnaris) and Maroxy (for fungus). At this point I stopped using the Melafix/Pimafix as to not over medicate since I was administering stronger stuff.
•	Monday 11/5 - Maracyn 2 and Maroxy.
•	Tuesday 11/6 - (pending) Day 4 of Maracyn 2 in the evening and day 3 of Maroxy. I bought a lot more Maracyn 2 and was wondering if I should double up on the treatment today to be on the safe side?

What really has me worried is that I've noticed almost every one of my fishes (if not all) now have these white legions on their bodies/fins. Some more than others. This definitely does not appear to be Ich. All of the fish appear to be in good shape outside of that. Appetite is still good, even with the Wolf, although he isn't eating as much as before. I noticed that the large wound on my Wolf has little fibers coming out of it which is the big distinguishing factor between a fungal infection and columnaris, unless he has both of course. I've also noticed as of today that the tank glass has a lot of little white thread-like spots (that kind of whip back and forth with water movement which I noticed when trying to take pics) and wasn't sure if it was the result of the Maracyn 2 killing off beneficial bacteria.

I spoke to the pet store owner that I've bought all my fish from (they only sell cichlids) and sent him a bunch of photos and videos to get his thoughts. He seems to think that it's a fungal infection and not columnaris. He recommended that I net the Wolf and apply methylene blue drops directly to his white, infected legions. If fungal, it will stain nearly black and the white patches will eventually fall off. I won't be able to try this out until tomorrow unfortunately.

I've uploaded a few videos to YouTube that should give you an idea of what I'm dealing with. I also took a bunch of high res images but can't seem to figure out how to upload them. Your feedback is HIGHLY valued, especially if it can save me from losing my fishes  I really don't know what else to do or think at this point...

Check out these videos below:


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## psamona (Nov 6, 2012)

I just checked out the condition of my fishes this morning and the infection is definitely spreading. All of the fishes have the white spots/growths on them (which you can see in the videos). I'm really leaning more towards a fungal infection than columnaris at this point. I'll apply some Methylene Blue directly to the Wolf's large wounds, but should I also just apply a full dose of it to the entire tank? I need to stop the spread. I may raise the temp up to 82 degrees but was hesitant originally thinking it was columnaris. Today is day 5 of the Maracyn treatment and I was thinking about doing a large water change tomorrow and treating with the Methylene Blue. Thoughts?


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Oh boy. First, let's talk water quality. Prior to illness, what was your normal water change routine? Your tank is heavily stocked, and disease outbreaks are typically prompted by an outside factor. Please test your water for ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite... if you don't have a test kit, bring a water sample to your LFS.

Then- yes, do a large water change. Or three. I see a lot of debris in your water column, which makes me wonder if a series of water changes aren't going to be your best friend right now. Clean water is always the place to start when fighting disease.

For fungus, I recommend Furan or or Fungus Cure. I don't have the directions on hand, but don't quit treatment as early as they suggest, and do a large water change in between dosings.


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## psamona (Nov 6, 2012)

Thanks Triscuit! I don't think the Maracyn 2 and Maroxy have really done much, so I may just cease treatment of those today and perform a 75% water change. I won't add carbon to the filters until I get a chance to medicate with Furan-2. I can't find any at my LFS and will have to get on Ebay. Do you know what the dosing instructions are? I'm assuming 1 packet treats 10 gallons, but I couldn't find this info online and have no idea how much to order. Would you recommend getting some Kanaplex as well?

With regards to water quality, I usually perform large weekly water changes (50-80%). I have two extra large bio-whisper hang on tank filters and a Rena XP4 cannister. The tank gets very messy very quickly but has been cycled and running beautifully for the last two years, but ever since my Wolf got infected things have drastically taken a turn for the worse. The fish always nip at each other, but aggression is usually distributed equally. The reason I haven't performed a PWC recently is because I didn't want to dilute the meds per their instructions, but I don't think this is helping. I'll do my best to test for ammonia, nitrates and nitrites and then perform a large water change. I did add some Prime the other day as a preventative for ammonia.

Does this look like a fungal infection over columnaris to you? If so, I'll also raise my temps. You rock.


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## dreday (Oct 12, 2007)

I would start with large water changes every other day. That tank is heavily stocked and needs some fresh water to start. Mealfix and pimafix are great to help wounds from fighting but not for treating parasites or bacteria, in my experience.

I am not familiar with that type of soar. It looks like a wound that became infected. The meds you picked should do the trick for most common bacteria. If that clears up the wounds should heal on their own.

And you can do water changes while dosing medications. Sometimes it is necessary.

Once your test results are posted we may have a better idea of what is going on.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

psamona said:


> Thanks Triscuit! I don't think the Maracyn 2 and Maroxy have really done much, so I may just cease treatment of those today and perform a 75% water change. I won't add carbon to the filters until I get a chance to medicate with Furan-2. I can't find any at my LFS and will have to get on Ebay. Do you know what the dosing instructions are? I'm assuming 1 packet treats 10 gallons, but I couldn't find this info online and have no idea how much to order. Would you recommend getting some Kanaplex as well?


 Kanaplex has had some success with columnaris, but what I'm seeing from the videos doesn't look like columnaris. You need to host your photos on an external site- I use photobucket, but flickr works too. Then, take the IMG code and post it here. I think some still photography will help with the diagnosis. There's a good chance it's not columnaris, simply because you haven't lost fish yet. Furan-2 dosing info here.



> With regards to water quality, I usually perform large weekly water changes (50-80%). I have two extra large bio-whisper hang on tank filters and a Rena XP4 cannister. The tank gets very messy very quickly but has been cycled and running beautifully for the last two years, but ever since my Wolf got infected things have drastically taken a turn for the worse. The fish always nip at each other, but aggression is usually distributed equally.


Large weekly WC are good- do you vacuum when you do it? How often to you clean your filter pads? Did you get the water tested yet? Aggression is a common cause for disease outbreaks (stress weakens the immune system), but if you somehow lost your biofilter, poor water quality can do the same thing. And, now that you've used maracyn, you've likely disrupted your biofilter and need to monitor ammonia and nitrite. For right now, I recommend NOT feeding for at least a few days. Your fish won't starve (it would take a month), and it'll help you get the tank cleaned out and limit any potential toxicity from a mini-cycle.


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## psamona (Nov 6, 2012)

Thanks again for your help! I haven't had a chance to test the water yet. My friend gave me a kit but the reagents are at least 3 years old. I ordered a new one, seems like something I should have on-hand. I also ordered plenty of Furan-2 and API Fungus Cure which will be arriving today. I know that I can't use them concurrently, so if you have any thoughts what may be the better option that would be great. I know that Furan-2 specifically treats bacteria, so I was unsure of its effectiveness against fungus...

My usual large water changes consist of a lot of siphoning. On Wednesday I performed an 80-85% water change, filtered the gravel and raised the temp to 82 degrees. I tried to get as much of the Maracyn/Maroxy out (without using carbon). I then dosed with aquarium salts, Melafix, Pimafix and Stress Zyme. I know they won't help much, but I figured they may slow the spread until the stronger meds arrive. I followed the advice of my LFS and netted the Wolf. I carefully placed him on a towel in the net and dripped methylene blue directly on his wounds/ growths. There were actually pieces of the growths that fell off into my net. The methylene blue did seem to help overall, but I unfortunately missed some spots and didn't repeat the procedure on the other less severe fish. After I placed him back in the tank he swam to a corner and was in a bit of shock. Today he was back to swimming around normally.

My plan today is to do another large WC (will skip the siphoning) and dose with either Furan-2 or Fungus Cure. I should also note that I bought a piece of drift wood I plan on adding to the tank once the infection is clear to give more seperation.

Granted the infection has spread to others, the fish do seem to be in pretty good spirits and hopefully will pull through this. Thanks for the photobucket suggestion. Rather than uploading to this post, I created a gallery you should be able to view: http://s1272.beta.photobucket.com/user/ ... y/Cichlids

Let me know if there's anything else I can provide!


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Now, some of those look like ich. I wonder if you've got concurrent infections going on. :?

Raising the temp increases the rate of reproduction for many infections. It works as a cure for ich because when combined with high levels of salt the lifecycle progresses more quickly while the salt prevents successful reinfection.

I really need you to get a water test. Maracyn can kill that biofilter and we need to know if the tank is cycling. Do not feed until you get a test for ammonia and nitrite.


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## psamona (Nov 6, 2012)

Ugh I was afraid of that :/ the last ich outbreak I had was nearly 2 years ago. I added a Tinfoil Barb and a Jack Dempsey ~3 weeks ago that was the last addition I had in a while. Could the ich have been present in my tank this entire time? Unless it came from the newer fishes and ran rampant when stressed. Come to think of it, I did notice a few fishes randomly rubbing against gravel and rocks, but figured even non-ich conditions could cause this behavior. Again all was great until the Wolf got infected. I know that ich usually resembles salt specs but what I was seeing looked more bacterial or fungal to me. Then again I'm no expert which is why I'm here  I ordered some QuICK Cure based on good reviews. When I get home tonight I'll up the temp to 86 degrees from 82, test for ammonia and nitrite (despite having an older test kit), run a very large WC and report back. I'll hold off on treating with Furan, Fungus Cure or Quick Cure pending additional feedback. I just need to make sure my next treatment attempt is spot on and that I'm using the best and most relevant meds.

Random note - since treating with Maracyn 2 I did notice some white (almost algae like) growth on my glass, which is usually very clear. I'm assuming this could be the result of a mini cycle. I also had biological filter media in my canister, but that's been disconnected as I've been using two hang on tank filters with no carbon during treatment.


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## psamona (Nov 6, 2012)

As a side note, I also came across this when researching the following website:http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/columnaris.html

"For very difficult cases of Saprolegnia (especially when parasites are also suspected/involved), a strong cocktail of SeaChem ParaGuard (or Quick Cure) and Furan 2 AND Triple Sulfa may prove successful" - maybe I can kill two birds with one stone if ich/fungus.


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## dreday (Oct 12, 2007)

I know your fish look bad but you need to stop adding all those things to your tank. You are just stressing them out more. Melaflix and pimaflix are ok for certain situations, stress zyme in my opinion is a waste of money.

Just do some more WC and do not add more stuff to the tank. It does not look like fungus and mos fish do not get fungal infections unless they are very lethargic. I would not treat for fungus.

Also lower your temps, it is a little know fact that cooler water can kill some parasites and bacteria. I know a few large discus breeders that do that when they see issues arise. If you are not sure what the fish have you need to ID that first. Putting to many meds in will only hurt a stressed out fish more.

This is coming form a guy who had an ich outbreak and used 10lbs of salt over a month on 2 75g tanks. I had salt creep, which is salt residue coming from the tank. I ended up killing more fish than helping. I know it is hard to watch your fish suffer but you have to try and clear your head before making decisions.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Later, we'll talk about the importance of quarantine. :wink:

The addition of new fish is the primary reason for the disease outbreaks... you've got new pathogens combined with the stresses of acclimation and territorialism. Never a good combination.

So- ich seems likely, very common with new fish. It's almost a guarantee that fish from big box stores will be infected with ich. The treatment for ich that I use is just salt and heat. Read this article: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ich.php for details. Most importantly, you need to get the temp up above 85 degrees for this to work, and add the salt slowly, predissolved, over several hours.

I'd skip the other meds right now, and don't feed. (Again, do not feed for the next few days!) Add extra surface agitation to make sure you get enough dissolved oxygen. If you don't have an extra pump, just lower your water level by an inch so the HOBs splash a bit more.

**Update repsonse to *Dreday's post*... I would not advise lowering temps and quitting treatment at this stage. Please read the cited article for more information on heat and salt effects on ich. Not all fish get lethargic for fungus, and fungal infections happen frequently.


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