# Ich ?



## FanOfSkynyrd (Nov 25, 2012)

Long story short, I ordered from an online breeder that I thought was reputable (dont judgea book by its cover).

Several of the fish I ordered developed Ich.

I began heat treatment right away by slowly increasing tank temp from 78* to 87*. I also began adding salt at 1 tablespoon per hour (dissolved in tank water then added to tank).

I began increasing the temp 48 hours ago and adding salt 24hours ago.

One if the sick fish already perished and 2 others are still showing the ich spots (one of which has gotten a lot worse since began treatment).

How much longer do you think it should be before the ich begins its next stage and falls off my fish.

Tank is 90gal. Amm/Nitrite are 0, Nitrate is 5ppm. Ph is 7.8, KH 8*/GH 20*.

I prefer not to use meds so I am going to attempt heat and salt to erradicate the ich, use meds as a last resort.

Thanks in advance. BTW, novice aquarist (7+ years), first bout if ich ever hence the questions.


----------



## Mschn99 (Dec 24, 2012)

If you are sure it is ich, i would treat with medicine personally. I have never had ich with africans, and it isnt that common unless the fish were exposed to low water temps. Part of the problem with shipping in winter though is the water temp can easily get under 72 degrees, which is were ich usually becomes a problem. So it may not be the breeders fault, it may just be something that developed as a hazard of shipping in winter. Be absolutely certain its not velvet or another fungal infection before treating for ich though as the treatments are different and you would be stressing the fish unnecessarily if you treat for one but they have the other. I do know that heating the water was a good first step though.

Was a whole tank exposed? and is anyone else showing signs? if your tank was 78 degrees to begin with, IMO its unlikely any of your fish you already had will have a problem, So i would quarrantine your new fish to a hospital tank, treat them, and then keep the water temp in your main tank at around 82* and closely watch your current fish just to be safe.


----------



## smitty814 (Sep 27, 2012)

86*-87* is the right temp. and treating with salt also helps. Ich is a parasite that has stages. If it's on your fish it's in your tank. The parasite could be in the water column (that's when it can be killed) and in and on your substrate as well as showing on your fish. So a hospital tank is'nt needed. It takes about 3 wks. to eradicate. Be patient. :thumb:


----------



## FanOfSkynyrd (Nov 25, 2012)

Hi, thx for the reply. Unfortunately I do not have a hospital or quarantine tank set up...I'm luck I have this one set up, space is a premium and I just don't have the extra space to put up even a 10gal.

So since even the sick fish were in my main tank I think the whole tank is now exposed.

I understand about the winter weather and danger in shipping fish. The place I bought from had the outward appearance (website) of a reputable retailer, but my experience with them has been less than to be desired. After the ordeal I did some research (i know should have done before...hindsight is you know what), I found there are literally hundreds of people who have the same issues (think puppy mill of fish breeders). They have an F rating from BBB.

Anywho, I am fairly certain its ich, they two visibly infected fish look as though they are covered with flakes of salt.

Forgot to mention, this is not an African setup, but a SA setup. 1 severum w/ ich (was 2), 2 blue acaras, 1 gold ram (worst of the 2 with iCh), 2 mickey mouse platies, 2 dalmation mollies, and 2 albino cories.

Like I said I prefer not to use meds if I don't have to. I've read article upon article, thread upon thread about ich. I know all but extreme cases can be beat without meds.

Just curious as to maybe how much longer until the ich spots fall off the fish and enter the next life stage.

I haven't gotten all the salt in yet, adding it slowly and observing the cories since I know they are sensitive to it. I am at about 11 tablespoons out if 18 total to reach the 1 tablespoon/5 gallon recommendation.

Thx again for the reply and for any other insight.


----------



## FanOfSkynyrd (Nov 25, 2012)

smitty814 said:


> 86*-87* is the right temp. and treating with salt also helps. Ich is a parasite that has stages. If it's on your fish it's in your tank. The parasite could be in the water column (that's when it can be killed) and in and on your substrate as well as showing on your fish. So a hospital tank is'nt needed. It takes about 3 wks. to eradicate. Be patient. :thumb:


Thx! I guess the silver lining is I have a lot of time off work due to holidays to observe and treat.


----------



## FanOfSkynyrd (Nov 25, 2012)

So, the two that were really bad are looking better today, looks like a lot of the ich has started to fall off. However, the Ram who was by far the worse of the 2 where the ich spots were looks blurry (best way to explain it). Is that normal, I mean I figure there would be some damage from the parasite.

Tank has been sitting at about 88-89* after I bumped it up a couple degrees 24 hours ago.

Tank almost fully dosed with salt (1 Tblspn/5gal)

Fish are all active (even the Cory cats) and feeding very well (they all devour it in less than a min).

Aiming to conduct a 30% water change (with gravel vac) tomorrow and keep the heat and salt treatment going for at least another 2 weeks.

So what do u think, are the blotchy spots where ich was normal? Thanks.


----------



## smitty814 (Sep 27, 2012)

May be some sort of fungus.


----------



## dreday (Oct 12, 2007)

I believe that your treatment is working but I would never recommend doing that type of treatment. Your temp is to high for comfort. I would never raise the temp that high.

My recommended treatment for next time would be this:
Quick cure at half the recommended does 2-3 times a day. Dose for 3 days then 50% WC. Treat again for another 3 days. 50% WC and thats it. You do not need to raise temp unless your tank is below 75f. If your tanks normal temp is 75f or up the cycle of the parasite is quick enough to be dealt with in a couple of days. You do want to keep the lights off while treating, malachite green is light sensitive and breaks down quickly with more light.

You do not need to treat for 3 weeks, you do not need to raise temp higher than 82-83f. Salt works well but more than 7 days with high salinity levels starts to deteriorate the fish. Also the "MYTH" about cold and ich is just that, a myth, an old wives tale. Cold temps do not cause ich outbreaks, it just does not work that way. Ich is a parasite that needs a host to live off of, in its cysts state it can survive for months and months. Once it hits water at the right range of temps it burst and attaches to a host.

I have had ich a bunch of times, with new fish. This treatment works very well for me. It is quick and does not harm the fish. Quick cure can harm invertebrates, some plants, and some sensitive fish. It is formalin and malachite green. The formalin works wonders on all parasites. Malachite green is primarily a fungus fighter. Together they work well on external protozoa.

I suspect the fish had it from the supplier. It is always good protocol to quarantine new fish for at least a month. A one week treatment with salt is a good measure to knock out any unwanted travelers. Other symptoms may present with in the time frame.

Good luck with you current treatment.


----------



## FanOfSkynyrd (Nov 25, 2012)

dreday said:


> I believe that your treatment is working but I would never recommend doing that type of treatment. Your temp is to high for comfort. I would never raise the temp that high.
> 
> My recommended treatment for next time would be this:
> Quick cure at half the recommended does 2-3 times a day. Dose for 3 days then 50% WC. Treat again for another 3 days. 50% WC and thats it. You do not need to raise temp unless your tank is below 75f. If your tanks normal temp is 75f or up the cycle of the parasite is quick enough to be dealt with in a couple of days. You do want to keep the lights off while treating, malachite green is light sensitive and breaks down quickly with more light.
> ...


Hi, thx for the reply. Does QuickCure stain ur stuff blue? I've read some meds out there actually will stain caulking and decorations blue.

This is the first time I am having to deal with anything like this and I just didn't want to tackle it with meds (i'm just not a huge fan of putting chemicals in my tanks).

But if this QuickCure works and doesn't stain my tank blue I would consider giving it a shot.

I read a lot about ich over the past several days and from what I read with the heat/salt treatment or meds its six in one, half a dozen in the other. The heat salt method is stressful but so are meds.

If the fish continue to look better I will turn the heat down a little bit, but everything I read about the heat/salt method u want to treat a little longer to make sure all the ich is killed off.

Thx again for ur reply, I really do appreciate it.


----------



## FanOfSkynyrd (Nov 25, 2012)

BTW, here are a couple of sources I found in my research on the web and am basing my treatment method off of.

http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_ich2.php

http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/foru ... pic=1285.0

I know there is a ton of info out there on ich (even an article here on the forums)

These are the 2 that had the most info on my preferred method of treatment.


----------



## dreday (Oct 12, 2007)

That treatment will work but you are close to starving your fish for O2.

Yes quickcure can stain you tank. The more you treat or the stronger the dose it will stain silicone and some decor. That is the malachite green.

I have done it in 125g show tanks at half dose and do not have noticeable staining. It will stain your skin for a day or so. That is the worst part in my opinion.

If it works for you then stick to it, this is just my thoughts on my most effective treatment.


----------



## smitty814 (Sep 27, 2012)

dreday said:


> That treatment will work but you are close to starving your fish for O2.


Yes the heat treatment does work; and without meds. You do however need to add a bubbler or circ. pump to agitate the water surface for gas exchange. The heat and salt treatment will deplete the O2 in your water column.


----------



## FanOfSkynyrd (Nov 25, 2012)

My O2 lvls should be good. Fish don't appear to be hanging out near the surface, plus I have Eheim air diffusor as one of my outlets, eheim wet/dry 2227 filter which increases o2 and its outlet is just above water lvl so I get a lot of surface agitation. There are also 2 powerheads running for increased circulation.

I did bump the temp down to 87*, it looks like the worse off fish are doing much better.

I will continue on course with heat/salt use meds as a last resort. Thx again for the replies!


----------



## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

My quickie 2 cents....for those who may have not heard this speal or the reasons why the heat/salt treatment works.

The heat/salt method will cure 99% of all Ich cases. A few stubborn cases may require medications.

A temp above 86 degrees will kill some free swimming ich but its primary function is it disrupts Ich reproduction. The toments that have released from the fish fall to the substrate and form cysts. Inside these cysts the toments start to divide into hundreds of eventual free swimming tomites that subsequently land on a host fish and start the process over. At temps above 86 degrees, division inside the cysts is disrupted. At temps of 86 and below, the lifecyle is just sped up, placed into over drive.

Salt (at the tonic dosage of 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons) will kill some free swimming ich but it's primary purpose is to protect your fish via two mechanisms. The most obvious is that it increases the fish's slime coat and increased slime coat makes it harder for the tomites to embed themselves. Less obvious is that the introduction of salt increases TDS values. Ich kills by introducing a gazillion little holes in the fish's skin, allowing to much water to enter the fish (freshwater fish do not drink water, it enters the fish through the skin via osmosis) as well as attacking the fish's gills. The end result is osmoregulation disruption. Increased TDS values minimizes this effect.

As a third form of treatment, daily gravel vacs are recommended. The gravel vacs will remove a quantity of the ich cysts from the substrate before they can divide into hundreds of free swimming tomites. In addition, the influx of fresh water improves the fish's immune system.

I've cured Ich with nothing but heat. I've never cured Ich with nothing but salt.

Of course, with higher temps the ability of the water to contain oxygen is decreased so increased aeration is a must. I keep South American's and I've never had a problem with the higher temps and SA cichlids. I cannot attest to Africans as I don't keep them.

Finally, if medications are necessary (fish or plants that cannot handle heat or salt), my recommended medicine would be Kordon Ich Attack which does not contain the caustic, carcinogenic, and stain causing chemicals found in other ich medications. And it can safely be used with plants and scaleless fish such as clown loaches.


----------



## smitty814 (Sep 27, 2012)

Another thing to add. If and I mean if you use meds. reduce the tank temp.


----------



## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Thread edited, posts deleted. Please stick to the topic. Retailer review type posts are not permitted within the discussion area.


----------



## FanOfSkynyrd (Nov 25, 2012)

So, day 5 of heat/salt treatment. Everyone is looking much better. I notice no white spots on any fish, so I will mark my calendar. One week from now I will begin gradually decreasing temp and begin water changes to eliminate the salt. I'll continue small daily water changes and gravel vacs until then, replacing any salt I remove.

Weird thing, I tested water params tonight. Amm was at .25ppm, nitrite 0, and nitrates 10ppm. Weird. Will have to keep an eye in that. Could be from excess food, I had fed a little bit more cause I wanted to make sure everyone got a full belly and vitamins from the food.


----------



## FanOfSkynyrd (Nov 25, 2012)

So update its been about 10 days since I began treatment and 7 days since I've seen any spots on my fish.

Everyone seems to be doing fine except for my last remaining Cory cat. He/she is in bad shape...I don't think its going to make it.

I have notched the tank temp down to about 86* where I plan to leave it for about another 3 or 4 days.

Going to do a large water change tonight without replacing salt in hopes of bring the Cory back but I won't hold my breath.


----------



## smitty814 (Sep 27, 2012)

You really need to stick with the heat for the full 3 wks. Maybe just dial back on the salt. :fish:


----------



## FanOfSkynyrd (Nov 25, 2012)

smitty814 said:


> You really need to stick with the heat for the full 3 wks. Maybe just dial back on the salt. :fish:


Ok, but the Cory didn't make it through the night. All other fish are fine. I will keep the heat going for another couple weeks, may even keep the salt up since I have no more cories left just to play it safe.


----------



## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

Honestly, at the "cure temps" (87 degrees and up), the Ich lifecycle is so expedited that I don't see how anything could occur 10 days after the last sign. I think you would be perfectly safe ceasing treatment 10 days after the last sign, although I admit to it being safer waiting two weeks. But three weeks I believe is a bit more than is necessary.


----------



## smitty814 (Sep 27, 2012)

kmuda said:


> Honestly, at the "cure temps" (87 degrees and up), the Ich lifecycle is so expedited that I don't see how anything could occur 10 days after the last sign. I think you would be perfectly safe ceasing treatment 10 days after the last sign, although I admit to it being safer waiting two weeks. But three weeks I believe is a bit more than is necessary.


Better safe than sorry. The ick could have been in any or all stages when the treatment started. opcorn:


----------



## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

While I do agree with the better safe than sorry concept, at a temp of 77 degrees the complete Ich lifecycle is 7 days. I believe at a temp of 87 that cycle is down to 3 or 4 days. But even at 7 days (at a temp of 77), regardless of the what stage the Ich parasites may be in, if you wait 2 weeks beyond the last sign you should be 100% safe. Three weeks, in my humble opinion, is overkill.


----------



## smitty814 (Sep 27, 2012)

kmuda said:


> While I do agree with the better safe than sorry concept, at a temp of 77 degrees the complete Ich lifecycle is 7 days. I believe at a temp of 87 that cycle is down to 3 or 4 days. But even at 7 days (at a temp of 77), regardless of the what stage the Ich parasites may be in, if you wait 2 weeks beyond the last sign you should be 100% safe. Three weeks, in my humble opinion, is overkill.


I'm saying 3 wks. for the whole treatment. 2 wks. beyond the last sign should total 3 wks. :zz:


----------



## 1025667 (Dec 20, 2012)

Heat alone has worked every time I have used that method. Meds can affect the bacteria on the filter etc.. I just try to stay away from them unless I am desperate. Especially when you are treating on the main tank. Keep temps at 87-91 for a couple weeks. Make sure there is a ton of circulation! And besides! When you treat ich with heat you don't have to take out filter material.


----------



## jonathantc08 (Nov 16, 2012)

unless the fish didn't come with ich i dont think thats the breeders fault entirely


----------

