# Water change system - 180g, help and questions



## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

Im trying to devise a water chage system for my 180 gallon.

The tank is in my finished basement. I plan on trying to devise at least a semi-automatic, perhaps automatic piped to the tank water change system.

Details / points - 
The tank is below the lowest drain (I cant use the floor drain). Water will have to be pumped into the drain. I plan to lose the main line that the wahsing machine ties into. 
My water is in a well and perfect for my fish with no chemicals or buffering. I dose prime to be safe- however It isnt needed as there is no chlorine in my well.
I can run pvc to the tank. 
The fresh water can only be from the cold side. I am thinking it should be pumped in through my sump, where my heaters will be. But the dwell time in the sump wont be long. in a 180g tank, will it really matter if the water coming in is cool?

With having to pump the waste water out, is there a cost effective way to do this automatically? Im assuming not, since the drain is higher than the tank, and I'll just have to plumb it and do it using valves and the pump. Better than hose and faucet, sure but not as nice as automatic...

The only other option I know is to have it drain into some kind of sump container, like a 30 gallon trash can, then pump that out as needed?


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

First of all, installing a DIY water change system is the item that has most contributed to increasing my enjoyment of the fish keeping hobby. Once you have one, you will never want to go back! Now to your questions.

*1. Getting water to the tank*

If you go with a drip system, only chloramine poses a problem. Even regularly chlorinated water is perfectly OK, and you will definitely have no problems with your clean well water. Forget about additives since they are not needed. With a drip system you can use 1/4" polyethylene tubing to bring the water to the tank. Given the thin tubing and the low flow rate, when your water enters the tank or sump, it will have reached room temperature. From there any regular heater should have no trouble bringing it to the desired tank temperature. Feel free to check out details of my setup for my 240G and my 125G.









_A 25′ coil of Watts 1/4″ Polyethylene tubing from Home Depot._

*2. Getting rid of excess water*

That part is obviously a bit of a problem since your tank is below drain level. To get the water out of the tank, you can drill your sump like I did for my 240G, or use a siphon-fed overflow made from 3/4″ PVC pipe like I did for my 125G. From there I would let the water collect in a largish container, such as a trash can or anything else that is easy enough to hide somewhere near the tank. In that container you can place a sump pump like people use for their home. They are available from any hardware store and will run you from about $100 to $200 depending on quality and brand. As an example, here is one from Lowe's. These pumps already come with the switch to automatically turns them on and off to periodically empty the container they sit in. In addition, they are designed to lift water, unlike impeller pumps used for aquarium purposes, which need to be siphon fed. In short, a sump pump would be ideal for your purposes. From the output of the sump pump, you can run PVC piping to the nearest drain - or even into your yard, because excess tank water would be perfect for watering plants in summer!









_$96.00 submersible sump pump from Lowes_


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

Good stuff

I was thinking about a small diy internal overflow inbthe tank. Return to the sump, maybe using an auto top off?

I will probably use a valve regulated siphon overflow of some sort for taking water away. The problem is how to regulate it witgout breaking siphon. I also thought about teeing off a 1/4 drain line from the main drains back to the sump, below my hob overflow box


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

If I understand you correctly, you have a sump system under your main tank. As you will know, any water you loose from evaporation is lost from the sump, because the tank is always filled to the top of the overflow. If you now ad water via an automatic drip water change system, you can drip the water into the tank or the sump, it does not matter. Since the tank already has an overflow into the sump, eventually the sump would overflow and water would spill onto the floor from there. That's why you have to install an overflow for the sump. The drip system will always keep the sump filled up to that overflow, and excess water can go to the drain to perform the desired water change.

That kind of system automatically keeps the tank and sump topped off at all times without the need for any extra auto top off features. There is also no need for any valves. The system is regulated purely by the amount of water you ad via the drip system.

If you do not want to drill your sump to create an overflow, the simplest solution is using a contraption like described here and shown below:









_Siphon-fed overflow made from 3/4″ PVC pipe - stretched out on the left, and folded up for easier installation on the right._









_The overflow hanging on the front of a tank for demonstration only. (Obviously you would hang it on the sump, not the tank)_

Because of the low flow rate (just dripping) 3/4″ PVC pipe is plenty enough as overflow. I was initially worried that this very light flow might cause the siphon to break after some time. After having the system in operation for several years, that has proven to be no concern. In hindsight I guess that should be no surprise, because you can also turn off your return pumps entirely (for example in a power outage), and the siphon will start back up once the water begins flowing again.


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

Ok I see what youre saying. Its regulated by the overfloe of the sump.

Problem would be that the sump of the aquarium, and the "drain tank" that it would drain into would be on the same level. Im not sure how that would work. Im almost positive that I have to put the drain line tapped off the return from the HOB of the main tank so that it would flow "downhill" into the wastewater bilge to be pumped by the sump pump to he house drain. (across the room, same tie in as washer, lift of about 5 feet)


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Borsig said:


> Problem would be that the sump of the aquarium, and the "drain tank" that it would drain into would be on the same level. Im not sure how that would work.


That would work beautifully 

Of course the water level in the drain tank can never be higher than the water level in the sump. In fact, I would install the sump pump so that it kicks in just before the water level in the drain tank could reach that in the sump. You might have to adjust the length of the cord of the float switch, but that should be easy.



Borsig said:


> Im almost positive that I have to put the drain line tapped off the return from the HOB of the main tank.


The problem here is that you need to design the system so that you drain exactly as much water as you are adding minus what evaporates. If you drain more, your sump will be depleted and your return pump runs dry. If you drain less, you will have a spill. I honestly can't see how you could pull that off unless you had an incredibly complicated computerized system that scanned the various water levels and adjusted water input and outflow accordingly. A simple overflow in the sump takes care of all this elegantly and in the most low-tech fashion possible. :thumb:



Borsig said:


> pumped by the sump pump to he house drain. (across the room, same tie in as washer, lift of about 5 feet)


That should be an easy job for any sump pump. As long as you can hide the plumbing going across the room in a satisfactory fashion, I see no problem.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Borsig, can you post a pic of the tank and the sump, include how far off the floor the top of the sump and the tank are.

Frank, I think Borsig may need to use a sump pump to get the water from the 'drain' tank to his house sump pump which is located across the room from his tank set up.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Deeda said:


> Frank, I think Borsig may need to use a sump pump to get the water from the 'drain' tank to his house sump pump which is located across the room from his tank set up.


Precisely what I recommended 

Sorry if it did not come over that way. The water goes

1. from his main tank to the sump via a siphon fed HOB overflow (already in place); 
2. from the sump to the drain tank via another siphon fed overflow (I recommended the 3/4" PVC pipe construction);
3. from the drain tank to the drain via a dedicated sump pump that is located in the drain tank.

Since the basement is below drain level, I presume there already is another sump pump in the basement that brings all the water (eg from the washer) up to drain level. The dedicated sump pump for the tank could take the water to the house sump pump in the basement, or to another drain above drain level eg on the ground floor of the house. Since it is his home, Borsig is in the best position to judge what's easier to plumb.


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

Its not set up yet..... Im in the design process. Most of it is in my garage or basement already.

Also - I will have a "flood protection" control system, and run dry protection -

IE - 120v float switch that will shut down my sump return pump if:
Sump level too low
aquarium level too high.

thats going in the system no matter what. Why? becasue its about 50 bucks for the switch combo setup. And 50 bucks is worth run dry and display overfill protection to me (in case of broken siphon). All I would have to add to this, would be the eshopps 1/4" water line top off float valve kit, and a drain of some sort. Or i could go the way youve suggested and install an overflow into the sump, that pulls out excess water.

The only problem I see with the design you suggest, is if the sump drain to wastewater loses siphon or backs up, I have water on the floor in the form of a sump overflow. Then again the same thign could happen with my idea if the top off valve sticks open.

See what I am getting at?


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Borsig said:


> The only problem I see with the design you suggest, is if the sump drain to wastewater loses siphon or backs up, I have water on the floor in the form of a sump overflow. Then again the same thign could happen with my idea if the top off valve sticks open. See what I am getting at?











_Sump overflow inside of sump container_

Sure. The black 1" bulkhead with the strainer is the overflow of the sump of my 240G. It's not siphon fed, and the chance of it blocking up is negligible, because it is virtually impossible to block every hole in the entire strainer.

That said, I once did not attach the drain tubing on the other side of that bulkhead properly, causing a slow leak and a flood under my tank.  
Obviously you want to take any reasonable precaution, but by the end of the day there is always some residual risk that you just have to live with opcorn:









_Sump overflow outside of sump container_


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

If thats your sump, it doesnt seem like you have any overflow space in case of a blackout?

I dont think I want to drill this 40B. I cant drill my 180, even if i could, a failed drill would put me out of business on the setup.

I work for the DOE - At one of our national atomic research labs. Redundancy and precautions / fail safe / via controls is just simply in my nature. **** I had one of the structural engineers at teh lab verify the stand I have for it, LOL.

By the way - my display overflow / sump run dry protection are coming from here:
http://autotopoff.com/products/


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Borsig said:


> If thats your sump, it doesnt seem like you have any overflow space in case of a blackout?


Quite the opposite, I have unlimited overflow space behind that overflow of the sump 

I am all for redundancy and fail-safes. For example my 240G has two 45G sumps, which are connected but run independently via separate drain pipes and return pumps. In the very unlikely event that one side fails, like an entire drain pipe blocks, the other can still handle the bioload by itself with ease. In addition, I have made such a blockage unlikely to begin with by using 2" drain pipes instead of the customary 1" pipes. That said, I find that failure becomes more likely with increasing complexity of the system. Weak points in my experience are switches and bulk heads. I use no switches and only 4 bulkheads in the entire system.









_For details see here._


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

how do you like the mag drive 18? thats my planned pump too


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Borsig said:


> how do you like the mag drive 18? thats my planned pump too


Great pumps - quiet, reliable, no maintenance required. I have nothing but good things to say about them, and wouldn't buy any other pump if I needed another one.

I use them with the optional foam pre-filters, which are a highly recommended accessory, because they ensure no dirt ever gets into the pump. When the foam is full of dirt you notice the reduced flow, and it is time to clean them.


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