# Water Changes: Can you ever do too much?



## CiChLiD LoVeR128

Like what the title says can you do water changes too much? Because I did water changes last night and I looked in my 55 gal and my Female isn't acting the greatest! And she was fine before. Guarding over the nest everything! I just dont get this! Should I slow down on water changes? I do weekly water changes usually around 30-50%. Im I doing something wrong? Last weekend I syphoned my tanks except for the 20 gal L because I just set that one up!


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## DirtyBlackSocks

No, as long as the water you're putting into the tank has the same parameters as the water you're taking out of the tank you can never do too much.

In Asia some breeders do 100% water changes two or three times a day and they are producing show winning fish as a result.

Rather then filter their tanks, they leave their fish in completely still natural water.


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## akapaul26

In some cases yes but in most cases no. I wouldn't clean a tank too much during spawning and breeding times but general maintnance should be done. I do 50% weekly to ten days on my tanks. Clean fresh water will benefit your fish in a number of ways. The only thing is make sure to dechlorinate and match water temp!


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

Ok thanks guys! I wonder whats going on then? :?


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## DirtyBlackSocks

Description of what's wrong with the female as well as the past few months history on what you've done with the tank, to include feeding of live foods and introduction of anything new. As well as recent out of the ordinary changes you've done would probably lead you to a better conclusion.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

Sorry I forgot to add that. Before the water change (which I do every week and I do the same amount) she was fine watching over the fry and everything and when I added water I accidentely stired up the fry and she went and gathered them and spat them back in the tank. When I looked in the tank around 3 pm She was sitting beside the pot on the gravel and then I took a glance a way for a little bit and when I glanced back she was on her back still sitting above the gravel for a few seconds and then pulled herself back upright but seemed like she was leaning against the pot.

This is the first time I have noticed this! I only added some Giant Danios about 2-3 weeks ago which are now gone. The male is constantly watching the fry! I had to go to work for a few hours and when I returned just recently I found her underneath the driftwood and sitting there. I feed them flakes in the morning and frozen foods at night. I haven't made any changes to the tank. I did do a syphon last Tuesday. The fry and the Male are doing fine! I just dont understand this! I hope she doesn't die!! Just like the other Female I have a great bond with and including the Male! I am already attached to them and I dont understand why I am having this much trouble!  I have been doing everything to make sure they have a healthy enviornment and they live for a long time! I have done the samethings as I did with the Texas's and I NEVER had problems with them!


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## DirtyBlackSocks

Did you QT the danio first?


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## Hairback357

I only feed mine frozen food once or twice a week. I would try and reduce the frozen food and see what happens. If you don't see any obvious signs of sickness this would be a good place to start.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

> Did you QT the danio first?


No. I did let them acclimate and I didnt pour any of their water in. There isn't any outbreaks at all just she is acting wierd. How could it be the frozen foods? I feed them a HUGE variety!


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## trimac

100% water changes :-? wouldn't the fish die :-? sounds weird to me :-?


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## trimac

Still natural water :-? isn't all water natural :-? no filters-then how do they breathe :-? i really disagree with a lot of practices that certain Asians do-I also know of a few who put like 20 large fish in a 180 gallon tank :-?


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## DirtyBlackSocks

The way they perform the water change is by topping off and syphoning out over and over.

I.e. if you syphon off 50% of the water then top it off with new water you'll have 50/50, syphon off another 50% and you'll remove 25% of the old water and 25% of the new ect. ect.

Fish don't run out of oxygen because the w/c are done so often...as far as not agreeing with Asian practices, they're pretty much the pioneers in what's being done in the hobby and most of the best looking fish in the world are raised by Asian breeders...


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## bernie comeau

Are you sure none of those missing giant danios were not killed and are now rotting away underneath some decor?

When you do a water change, how much waste are you removing from the substrate and from underneath decor? Simply removing water does not address the real problem. The water change itself could have some adverse affect on the micro-organisms and with out lessening the waste load, it could compound the problem.

Salvinis themselves are not the best of scavengers, and any uneaten food or dead fish could produce even worse toxins then come from fish waste.

You already know what likely happened to your fry in another tank as you did find some nitrite, which is even more toxic then ammonia, and is also possibly more toxic at higher pH. What is the nitrite level in this tank?


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## DarkMatter

Where do they put the fish during the time when there is no water, I wonder?


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## DirtyBlackSocks

DirtyBlackSocks said:


> The way they perform the water change is by topping off and syphoning out over and over.
> 
> I.e. if you syphon off 50% of the water then top it off with new water you'll have 50/50, syphon off another 50% and you'll remove 25% of the old water and 25% of the new ect. ect.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

I am pretty sure there aren't any leftover Giant Danios! I will test the tank and find out what the levels are!

I Syphon the whole tank when I do! And I make sure I get down deep! I have noticed that! They dont clean up afterthemselves all that well. They are predators which is why!

Thanks Bernie I will check up on that!


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## DirtyBlackSocks

It's also getting to the time of the year where it's heating up. You may want to call your water company and see if they've increased the amount of chloramine to combat warmer weather.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

Well everything I had hoped for is falling apart! I am going to have to restock my 55 gal!! :x :x   What is this?!?!?!?!?!? My Female died and now my Male is pale and turning around and around and around and not looking good AT ALL!! The fry are freeswimming and are acting fine so far!! What do I do? Please help me!! I will test when I have the free time! My Male and Female in the 40 are doing fine! But what do I do now? do I keep the fry in the 55 gal or should i move them? How should I stock up my 20 gal L? Because I have the 3 guppies in there and they ate my 4 remaining fry!! God I am losing EVERYTHING!!! I am so pissed, upset, and sad all at the sametime!! What did I do wrong? I am sorry that was a rant but I am in such a mess!!


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## DirtyBlackSocks

Seems like your danio's had somth'n...either that or you've got a bad heater and/or the city did somthing to the tap water.


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## bernie comeau

That there is something extra in your tap water is a distinct possibility. Of course to make water safe to drink the water company has to use chemicals to kill bacteria and if it kills bacteria in your aquarium it could be very detrimental to the health of your tank. That the tap water is somehow affecting the bacterial population of your tank is a distinct possibility. But with out phoning the water company and finding out exactly what they are using and how much, it would be very difficult to know for certain.

From the description given, it doesn't seem like a contagious disease. From the description given it would apear to me to be a problem of nitrite or ammonia. We already know that previous death of fry has already been determined to be nitrite with almost certainty. And fish will have variable tolerance to toxins, dependant on many variables. Of course with out testing the water, very difficult to determine what is happening now.

If it is a problem of nitrite or ammonia, it might be even more difficult to determine exactly why this is occurring. Changes in the type of chemicals used or amount of chloramine used by the water company is just one of many possibilities though it does apear to be a fairly likely possibility as the problem seems to have some connection with your water change.


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## DirtyBlackSocks

Once in a blue moon water company's will flush a lot of extra chloramine into their waters to dispose of excess waste, sort of as a maintenance issue.

Even chemicals such as AmQuel or Prime can be ineffective if you don't know about it, because you won't be adding a high enough dose.

Food for thought, I would seriously consider calling the water company and figuring that one out. Otherwise I'd look into a leeching heater and most definately test your water parameters.

These kinds of problems are why it's important to have test kits on hand, a lot of deaths can be avoided if you catch nitrite and ammonia issue's early on.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

WOW thanks guys! I do have a water test on hand! I always have had one! Ok I will phone my water company!

What are some questions I should ask? Because as you can tell I have no idea what goes on with water! I mean I know about Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Ph, Chlorine, and Chloramine but thats all I know! Is that all I should know? Thanks guys SO much for helping me!! So if we figure this out and everything how can I avoid this in the future? Because this is VERY upsetting and disappointing!! And I dont want to encounter this again!!


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## DirtyBlackSocks

If it's an issue of the water company adding extra chloramine, unfortunately there isn't much you can do.

Just ask the water company if they've added any new or extra amounts of chemicals in the past month or two...anything out of the ordinary.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

I have a pure faucet filter and a R/O water system. Will either of these help?


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## DirtyBlackSocks

An R/O DI unit would, but you need to get the real ones, not just a common house hold water filter.

The problem with that is that it turns the water into 6.0 absolutely 100% neutral water and you need to add minerals back into it...it's really more of a hassle then it's worth.

Get yourself a master test kit to keep on hand, including chloramine and chlorine test kits and if you start seeing problems like this again you can remedy the situation a lot faster.

We still don't know what's causing it, and I think you might be jumping to conclusions too fast. Talk to your water company first.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

I have a real R/O system. I also read up on the Pure faucet filters and it says it takes out a lot of junk out of the water and even reduces the amount of Chloramine and Chlorine!

Ok I know I am I just want to end this problem! Also my guppies are dying as well! I have not had the greatest success with Guppies! I dont know why! The look and act fine at the store and I bring them home and they dont even last a week! :roll: I will contact the water company and see whats going on!


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## DirtyBlackSocks

Have you tested the waters yet yourself? Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate ect.?

if those are reading fine, and all of this stuff is dying, it's gotta be somthing in your water that you're not treating properly.


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## Burtle

I'd be freaking out too CL...
From what I've read the problem seems to be in the 55 only?
You say the fry are still swimming and fine, which assures me its not a temp issue, and also likely not a nitrite/ammonia problem either.


> I feed them flakes in the morning and frozen foods at night.


How long have you been keeping this routine? Frozen foods really shouldn't be fed daily, nor even necessary unless trying to fatten them up pre spawn.
Depending on the frozen foods, and amounts being consumed, these can cause intestinal problems down the road.

I guess only thing I can say is throw some NaCl, a bubbler or two, and pray. 
Also, best of luck, hope this problem gets solved without anymore losses. :thumb:


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

> From what I've read the problem seems to be in the 55 only?


It has also occurred in the 20 gal L and 29 gal (when I had it setup). Everytime I did a water change the fish would die! Also my guppies in the 20 gal L and high aren't doing so good! I have never been able to keep guppies successfully for some odd reason! They always end up dieing!


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## Burtle

Eeeeh, now I'm really stumped.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

I have done this routine since I owned the Texas's. And with the Salvini I have feed them like this ever since I got them which was in the Fall if I do recall! I just dont understand it! I am thinking that it might be a water related issue like Bernie had suggested! Because a lot of fish have been dieing at such young ages. I am thinking if I use the Pure filter it should be ok and I treat with the prime!


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

I did a water test and all seems ok I had 0 ppm on ammonia and nitrite and only maybe 40 ppm on nitrate but other than that its cool! I setup my pure water faucet filter and it could VERY well be something going on with the local water! Will this help? I have called my water supplier but they are never there! Here is their website if you want to take a look at it!

http://www.cattrailwater.org/construction.html

One of my LFS's said that he can get some Salvini in for me!!  However, I told him my routines and he said to stop doing weekly water changes and just do once a month water changes by syphoning!! I have to admit it does make sense since everytime I do water changes something happens!


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## Big Vine

Do you age your water at all, or simply pour it in directly from the tap via a python?
If you're not doing it already, I highly recommend aging water under aeration (put a bubblewand in there) in a large Rubbermaid trashbin, using a double dose of Prime. Keep a submersible heater in there as well---match it to your tank's water temp.

BV


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

Nope I dont age my water! I just place it in! Thats what I have done for a long time now and I have never had any problems!


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## bernie comeau

I really don't think anything has really been determined yet to jump to the conclusion that RO water is a solution to this problem. Softer water could be even more unstable and lead to greater problems. If it is a toxin from the water company that is directly affecting the fish , or heavy metals from water pipes then maybe RO water would be the solution however I have some doubts about that, as the problem doesn't seem to continue on long after the water change, as the survivers, from what I understand, continue on unaffected. Unless of course the toxin can be oxidized rapidly and then Bigvines suggestion would probably be better as it would not reduce water hardness.

The water tests should have been conducted right when the problem was occurring, not the next day, as we really do not know now whether or not the water was fine last night or not. As dirtyblacksocks suggests, a master test kit would be a very good thing in order to test right away, as you have problems and so far the reasons have not been determined at all.

That it coincides with a water change might mean the problem comes from the tap water itself or might ALREADY be in the tank. For example an anaerobic pocket in the substrate that is disturbed during the water change releasing such toxins as methane gas might be your problem; or something similar. While the water change is triggerring the problem, the solution is actually more water change and more vigorous vacuming of the substrate, especially from underneath decor. The fact that you still have 40 ppm of nitrate the day after a 30- 50% water change MIGHT suggest that the problem lies inside the tank and is simply being disturbed by the water change.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

Are the Master Kits you are suggesting like these at Petsmart?


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

I know I shouldn't jump to conclusions but what if the problem and solution is right under our noses? Is there anything I can do maintenance wise to the tanks or is there still some missing facts? I called the water company and they haven't returned the call yet. Also where does methane gases come from if it is the problem? I used the Pure faucet filter with the Texas's without any problems! And I haven't done anything new to the tank! When I see a dead fish I fish it out! I will purchase the master kits and test. If I dont find anything with it and if the water company calls and there isn't a solution with that then what do I do next? Will I have to completely restart the tank? Also where should I place the fry? And what all should I do?


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

I just thought of this and this is just a thought ok I am not jumping to conclusions. Could it be possible that I performed to big of a syphon considering there was only 2 of them and they were only 3 in long and therefore throwing the tank in a bit of an unbalance or shocking them through the water change as I used cold water and then turned on the heaters right after? Maybe I do need to let them settle for a bit and let the bacteria raise up and let the tank go through a natural occurance.

Once a week no mater if I am syphoning or not I always perform the same amount of water change 30-50% and I use cold water.


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## bernie comeau

Cold water? How much temp. difference? One should always try and use water of similar temperature. Cold water might be the cause itself or it might be compounding the problem of a drastic change or shock to your system.

That the water change is somehow causing an imbalance or shock to the system, that is very possible. But even a very large water change itself, wouldn't nessessarily do that if the new and old water is similar enough. CA in general are VERY hardy when it comes to tolerating rapid changes in water chemistry and water temp., compared to most fishes. But then not everything in the system would nessessarily be hardy either.

Methane can be a byproduct of any kind of breakdown of organic matter but usually occurs where oxygen is very limited. Where water doesn't circulate well, especially underneath decor in the substrate (and thus very little oxygen), methane could build up. Even the nitrogen cycle can reverse ( nitrate is converted into nitrite and then nitrite converted to methane). It is toxic, though my understanding is that it escapes into the air at the water surface quite rapidly. Now what affect a drastic change in temp. could have on this, as well as many other things, I really don't know. Your problem might be a combination of things and they could be related or made worse by changes in water temperature.


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## Big Vine

Just a couple quick notes...
The kit you posted in the pic---the API Freshwater Master Test Kit---is the one you want. Secondly, the recommendations I mentioned earlier (in my post about aging the tapwater under aeration) was something I decided to implement upon discovery of the discrepancy between my tankwater pH (7.4) and tapwater pH (8.6). In the past this was not an issue (I had tested tapwater pH, and it matched that of my tank). HOWEVER, the water company obviously changed something. I also discovered that the company was using chloramine, and thus my previous tapwater conditioner was not sufficient (i.e. in terms of detoxifying the resultant ammonia). It was at this time that I made the switch to Prime.

So what led me to the sudden testing of tapwater pH again out of the blue and subsequent switch to Prime upon discovery of ammonia (caused by chloramine) in the tapwater? Simple...I had sick fish. My oscar, to be specific, ended up showing signs of what turned out to be an Aeromonas infection several months back. Treatment involved a vet visit, along with subsequent antibiotic injections. In speaking with the vet and discussing with others who have come across this issue, the bacteria responsible for infection (which is normally present in water without causing infection) was almost certainly brought on by the stress associated with fluctuating water conditions. In other words, the tapwater situation opened up my oscar to infection. Since that time, I have been able to maintain a healthy tanks and healthy fish. My oscar is now fine.

It isn't my intent to simply babble on about this or beat a dead horse.
What I'm trying to point out is that I would not have discovered tapwater issues had I not been noticing signs of sickness in my fish. Only feasible way of correcting my tapwater issues was to start treating tapwater with Prime, and then age it under aeration (which would bring the pH down from 8.6 to about 7.4 within a 24-48 hour period).

This could be just what the doctor ordered in your particular situation.
At the same time, it could be other issues at play, as bernie mentioned...probably several things going on at once. Aging water in a large container involves some extra work, but it's well worth it in the end, IMO. If you want I can post up a pic of my Rubbermaid 'Brute' 44 gal. trashbin. I fill it twice a week---once for a water change (~50%+) on my 75 gal.; and once for a water change (~50%+) on the rest of my tanks. I simply siphon out tankwater into smaller trashbins, and then I replace with the aged/treated tapwater using a Mag Drive pump (which remains constantly submerged inside of the large trashbin).

At the very least, you oughta start kicking the habit of using cold water during water changes.
Even though your fish may be able to tolerate it, it is almost certainly stressing them. Stress opens the door to illness and other potential ailments.

BV


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

My Male Salvini in the 40 gal breeder is dieing too! I woke up to him having spaze attacks! He goes crazy going upside down and everything I dont know how to describe it!! What the **** is going on! Please can we just figure this out! I dont know how much more of this I can take!


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## zoyvig

Just a hint on using the API Nitrate test kit - Step #3 shows to mix reagent 2 for 30 seconds before adding to the specimen vial. - *Shake it HARD like HECK for at least one (1) minute, for the most accurate readings.*

I have the Master test kits at my 90 and 75 gallon aquariums and individual Nitrate kits at each of my 40 long aquariums which I test regularly.

One of my 12 1/2" wild A.labiatus was acting sluggish and I kept testing his water with readings of 0 to 5 ppm Nitrates. Just on a whim I used another kit which gave me a reading of over 160 ppm. I ended using five kits over 160 ppm. I contacted AP with the batch numbers and the problems. They quickly emailed me back and emphatically stressed the importance of the major mixing of the #2 reagents.

SHAKE IT BABY!!!!!


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

Tonight I added cycle and prime to all my tanks!

When my Male Salvini in the 55 gal was acting strange I added Prime and after I had added prime he started acting fine and still is! He is protecting the fry and everything! So since he was acting better from it I decided to do the samething to the other tanks and see if it makes a difference! If it does then I will double the dosage. Also I am going to use my Pure water filter to reduce the amounts of heavy metals, chlorine, chlorimine, and other!


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## RobD213

I would also change the habit of adding cold water, try to get the water as close to the tank temp as possible before you add it.


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## DirtyBlackSocks

Sounds like you had a lot of chloramine in your water and Prime's getting it out...


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

Yeah it could very well be! My Male in the 40 gal died! And he looked like he was choking and having a hard time breathing! He also had a lot of spaz attacks and went crazy! The Female in there is fine though! Its the wierd thing!

I am just going to let the tanks go for about a month and just do my monthly syphon and see how that all plays out! I will double the dosage of prime when I add the water and use the Pure faucet filter and see if there is any changes and such! I think thats what I need to do at the moment! Just to see how things work! I will buy the master kit and use that as well! My water company still hasn't called me back but I think I am just going to what I just said and hopefully things will get better! I am pretty sure that it all had to do with my water but I could be wrong! Does this sound resonable and a good idea or not?


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## RobD213

I think you should stick with weekly changes. once a month is not enough IMO!


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

Ok! So I should stick with the once a week plan! So do you think 25% water changes would be enough or should I do a bit more?


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## Joels fish

25% once a week should be fine ,but thats dependent on stocking. I do 40 - 50%, cleaning the substrate as I go but I've got a lot of fish in there. As far as double dosing Prime, unless it says that it can't be overdosed then I would stick to the recomended amount per gallon. 
It would be interesting to find out whats behind your fish kill. I doubt it was the local water plant though cause they would have to make an anouncement that the water was unfit. Extra chlorine or chloromine isn't likely either cause levels of these must meet state and Fed guidelines before leaving the plant. (my ex wife worked at our local water plant for several years so I have a knowledge of the process in this ) You never know though , could have been a new guy screwin stuff up and no one caught it.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

Yeah I know I usually do water changes anywhere from 30-50% weekly but when these wierd actions and everything happened after the water changes I stopped. The water company called and I asked them if they have been using anything new or have been using more of Chlorine, Chloramine and the like and they said no. They are using Lime which is softens the water. And they have been using less chlorine and normal amounts of everything else they use. I told him that I have aqauriums and he said that they are not using anything that is harmful to fish (well of course dechlorinating the water). One of his co-workers also had an aquarium and uses the same water and he said that he hasn't been experiencing any problems and has been using aquasafe and everything is good!

So what is this then? I will stop using cold water. I dont test the temperature I just add it in. But I will stop and I will start using the same temperature as whats in the tank. If there is methane gas build ups how can I get rid of it? What should I do now? I will buy the Master Kit and see whats going on through there. Thanks!


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## bernie comeau

If you go many years and things are fine with NO problems, THEN maybe you can get away with not bothering to test the water. Particularily when a lot of water change is being done. But if you got problems, better be testing regularily. Otherwise one can not deduce or eliminate the many possibilities.

Buy the kit. Test pH, hardness, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and whatever else you can, before and shortly after the water change. Test the tap water as well to see how it may differ. And as well, AS SOON, as you notice a problem. This might tell you what changes are happening in your tank and what the problem may be.

If you vacume the substrate with every water change, particularily getting underneath decor regularily, you shouldn't encounter a problem with methane. If this is a problem, like I said before, the solution is more water change and more vacuming of the substrate, not less.

25% water change for two 3-4" fish in a 55 gallon might be enough but the fact that you still have 40 ppm of nitrate the day after a 30-50% water change is saying maybe not. I don't know how long this tank has been set up, but their might be some build up of organic matter from the past. With only 2 fish ( even with fairly heavy feeding), good vacuming of the substrate and regular water changing, a max of 20 ppm nitrate shouldn't be too hard to maintain.(Assuming of course, your tap water doesn't have nitrate, which you won't know with out testing it.)

That there was some sort of shock to the system from the water change, you'll never know without testing all the water parameters. If this is the case, the solution to this is likely more water change, as the less difference there is from the new and the old water, the less change or shock there will be on the system. Of course if it was the change or shock, a change in water temperature is sure not helping things either, and possibly made it much worse. Very good that your going to use water of similar temperature now, as changes in water temperature, particularily when you have problems, is not a good thing.

Prime can be used based on the entire gallons of the tank. In fact, if it is not premixed with the tap water beforehand, it is suposed to be dosed based on the entire gallons of the tank. It does state on the bottle, that a double dosage is safe and up to 5x the dosage can be used in an emergency to detoxify nitrite.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

I have had the 55 gal setup for about 5-6 years. I baught the master test kit. Although I hope you know Bernie that the Female in the 55 gal died, so all I have in there is a Male Salvini with A TON of fry!! So my question is this tomorrow is my usual day of water change. So should I go forth as usual and test all that I can? So I should test before performing the water change and shortly after correct?



> If you vacume the substrate with every water change, particularily getting underneath decor regularily, you shouldn't encounter a problem with methane. If this is a problem, like I said before, the solution is more water change and more vacuming of the substrate, not less.


So I should vaccum once a week? Is that what you are suggesting? Isn't that a bit much? What about the monthly rule? Wont that effect the chemistry of the tank and such? Ok maybe I need an update on taking care of aquariums! Because I am confused! :-?

So how much of a water change should I perform? The usual or a little less? Thanks!


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## Konvikt

I vaccum my tanks every week with less frequent large water changes. I have lines marked on tanks to show fill levels and i use the solutions bought at any LFS to solve chlorination ect. As long as i put back what i take out, use the solution and mix before adding to the tank I have no problems. The good thing is, if u use a white container, say 8-10 litres, then u can see what is coming out of your tank. Knowing if your fish are not partial to a certain thing makes for less mess from uneaten food, therefore less chance of contamination. Other than that I am not much good. A "cure all" solution maybe? They dictate 25% water changes as a minimum any way. So I spose it comes back to testing the water you put back in. Also if alkalinity is the problem then try dead coral from the beach. I have found it to hold my Ph. at approx 7 to 7.5 constantly, even directly after water changes!!!


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## RobD213

CiChLiD LoVeR128 said:


> What about the monthly rule?


What monthly rule?

I vac everytime I do a water change (about 30-50% weekly) the less waste there is the less harmful the water is to the fish!


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## Big Vine

Whatever it takes to keep nitrAtes below 20 PPM is a good general rule of thumb.
You must test nitrAtes routinely until you've figured out how big of water changes need to be done on any given tank. Once you've figured this out, you'll still need to monitor every once in a while; particularly if you have young, growing fish and/or changes in stocking levels.

On my two largest tanks, I do a 50%+ water change per week.
Gravel vacuuming happens at every water change. In the 4 ft. tank, I'll vac one half one week, then the other half the following week, etc. Filter media from one of my AC 110s is rinsed in tankwater (_*NOT tapwater*_) one week, and media from the other filter is rinsed the following week, etc.

Right now your best bet would be to perform as many water changes as it takes to 'reset' the nitrAtes down as close to zero as possible (may not be possible to hit zero if you have nitrAtes in your tapwater). Then test every 2-3 days and take note of the nitrAte level. Once it hits about 20 PPM, perform a water change. Repeat this until you've figured out how much water to change on a weekly basis in order to keep the nitrAte level below that 'magic' number. Feel free to change more water if you wish...the lower the nitrAte level, the better.

BV


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## bernie comeau

I agree with Bigvines advice here ( as well as the others on this page) except I have to reinforce here: you need to TEST first before you jump ahead and address nitrates. Test your aquarium water. Test your tap water. Hardness, pH, ammonia, nitrate, nitrite. Log it, post it; then maybe we can see if there is huge difference between your tank water and tap water. Then we can devise a plan of water changes and go from there. And again shortly after the water change, then test daily to see if it is causing changes in the tank.

Nitrates are an overall reflection of the wasteload in your tank. While nitrates are not that toxic themselves (at least over the short term), they are an indication of the levels of waste products in a tank. While small regular water changes are suffecient to maintain some tanks over the short term, generally the system will gain waste load over time and will have to be corrected with some larger water changes, at least at some point in time. Lots of different ways and methods of maintaining tanks but bottom line is, ideally a max of 20 ppm nitrate or less, should tell you how much water change and waste removal you need to do.


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## DirtyBlackSocks

FYI nitrates in your tap water should legally be at 0 if you aren't using well water off your property. It's toxic to infants and can result in blue baby syndrome, which is why waste treatment centers go to such great lengths to use anaerobic filters ect. to eliminate them in our waters.

I still haven't seen you doing anything but speculating what could be wrong, and it's been a while now since you've posted with this problem. Where's all the evidence you should be gathering to try and investigate this properly? Did you ever call the water company?


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## RobD213

DirtyBlackSocks said:


> I still haven't seen you doing anything but speculating what could be wrong, and it's been a while now since you've posted with this problem. Where's all the evidence you should be gathering to try and investigate this properly? Did you ever call the water company?


He updated us again only yesterday. As for calling the water company read again more carefully and you will see the outcome of this call.

He has also updated on water readings so i think he has done enough so far. He is speculating because he doesnt know the answer hence asking us :thumb:


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## bernie comeau

DirtyBlackSocks said:


> FYI nitrates in your tap water should legally be at 0 if you aren't using well water off your property. It's toxic to infants and can result in blue baby syndrome, which is why waste treatment centers go to such great lengths to use anaerobic filters ect. to eliminate them in our waters.


I know this is a little off topic :lol: 
The legal limit in many places is far higher then 0 ppm of nitrate. Blue baby disease is supposedely caused by nitrate levels in excees of 50 ppm but there is now debate amongst scientists and some evidence that suggests it is actually caused by E. coli.

MOST bodies of water are 0 ppm nitrate, at least around here. N is a limiting nutrient so it gets used up right away and is usually only measurable in ppb. But run off and leaching from fertiliser and manure has enriched some bodies of water in many places around the world.

Cichlid Lover has phoned the water company and the possibility of something extra added to the water by the water company has been pretty much ruled out. But what still remains is the testing of ALL water parameters to see how the tank water and tap water differ as well as how the tank changes after a water change.

As well, cichlid lover should also let tap water sit for 24-48 hrs. and see if something, such as pH changes drastically.


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## bernie comeau

bernie comeau said:


> As well, cichlid lover should also let tap water sit for 24-48 hrs. and see if something, such as pH changes drastically.


Just so I am not misunderstood, I am suggesting this just as a simple test, just to see how stable your tap water is. I am not suggesting aged water but rather to find out first, by putting tap water in a pail, maybe with an air stone, and testing over time to see if and how it changes.
In addition to testing your tank water.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

> What monthly rule?


From what I was told when I first started aquariums which was 6-7 years ago was you should vaccum once a month to allow bacteria build up and other things. I heard that if you do it too often you will remove the bacteria and make the tank go back into the cycling stages. I heard that the bacetria eats off of the ammonia and to remove too much waste will kill off the bacteria.

WOW!!! Thank you guys SO much!!  I dont know what to say or where to begin! :lol: :lol: I will test the water before and shortly after. So you think I should start getting in the routine of doing vaccums once a week? I just want to do whats best for the fish. I want them to be happy and healthy. My Ph is a strong 8.2-8.4 I cant remember! But I tried this before by sitting a container with tap and testing it and it came out 8.4.

Maybe what I will do with the 55 gal is syphon out one half at a time! Does that sound good?

THANK YOU SO much guys!! :thumb: :thumb:


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## bernie comeau

CiChLiD LoVeR128 said:


> Maybe what I will do with the 55 gal is syphon out one half at a time! Does that sound good?
> 
> THANK YOU SO much guys!! :thumb: :thumb:


No, cichlid lover. TEST :lol: Never mind what you remember it was, or used to be. What is it NOW. pH, hardness, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate? Tank water and tap water! Then from there we can decide on a water change schedule. Then again, test shortly after the water change and the next few days. Test as well, tap water that has been sitting for a few days just to see how stable it really is.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

OK!!! That makes sense! Thats what I will do!! Thanks!


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## RobD213

CiChLiD LoVeR128 said:


> From what I was told when I first started aquariums which was 6-7 years ago was you should vaccum once a month to allow bacteria build up and other things. I heard that if you do it too often you will remove the bacteria and make the tank go back into the cycling stages. I heard that the bacetria eats off of the ammonia and to remove too much waste will kill off the bacteria.


You should have enough beneficial bacteria in your filter to allow you to van every time because the waste will become harmful to the fish in larger doses.

Bear in mind alot of people use sand which doesnt build up and lots of breeders use bare bottom, so try vaccing as much as you can on every water change.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

Well I tested the tanks and this is what I got:

55gal

0 ppm Ammonia

0 ppm Nitrite

0 ppm Nitrate

8.2 ph

40 gal breeder

0 ppm Ammonia

0 ppm Nitrite

0 ppm Nitrate

8.2 ph

20 gal H

0 ppm Ammonia

0 ppm Nitrite

0 ppm Nitrate

8.2 ph

and finally 20 gal L

0 ppm Ammonia

0 ppm Nitrite

0 ppm Nitrate

8.2 ph


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## bernie comeau

Nah, I don't believe a 0 ppm reading for nitrate. You can't be doing that test right(?) As was mentioned earlier, you really got to shake those reagents well. Also tap water reading?

It would also be good if you could do general and carbonate hardness tests as well.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

It didn't come with a hardness or carbonate test! It only came with Ph and High Ph, Nitrate, Nitrite, And Ammonia. I was thinking the samething but I did do it right! I really shook up the bottles and I even tested out of the Koi tank for Nitrite just to make sure and it was right! Ok I will test for tap too. Should I test straight from the tap or let the water sit?


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## bernie comeau

No just test it right from the tap first. Put some in a pail, declorinate it , maybe with an air stone and then test it tommorow and every few days over the next week or so.

Something is definately not right with your nitrATE test. You had 40 ppm a few days ago in your 55 gal. and it can't magically disapear :lol: Maybe the test kit is old and somehow the nitrATE test is no good anymore. Try another test for it if your test kit still keeps saying 0ppm. Cause that is definately not accurate!

For now, never mind your hardness. If your pH in your tanks is stable and similar to your tap water, then your hardness is more then likely just fine. Let's find out first, if another niTRATE test says the same thing (?).


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

I tested the Koi tank with Nitrite and Nitrate tests and they both read high on both! 80 ppm or so on Nitrate and 1.0 with Nitrite. So I dont think they are bad!


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## bernie comeau

CiChLiD LoVeR128 said:


> I tested the Koi tank with Nitrite and Nitrate tests and they both read high on both! 80 ppm or so on Nitrate and 1.0 with Nitrite. So I dont think they are bad!


Well then re-test your tanks again, and see if the second test confirms your innitial test, at least for nitrate.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

I tested with my strips which I have been using and it shows the same as before! Its a light shade of pink! with 0 nitrites. 20-40 ppm. I filled up a 1 gal bucket of tap water and I tested and it shows no nitrites or nitrates. I then added prime to the same bucket after the test and tested it and again 0 ppm for both of them. I will let it sit for 24 hrs and test it again. Also when I did the test with the koi the solution changed colors basically immediately without shaking it.


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## bernie comeau

CiChLiD LoVeR128 said:


> I tested with my strips which I have been using and it shows the same as before! Its a light shade of pink! with 0 nitrites. 20-40 ppm. I filled up a 1 gal bucket of tap water and I tested and it shows no nitrites or nitrates. I then added prime to the same bucket after the test and tested it and again 0 ppm for both of them. I will let it sit for 24 hrs and test it again. Also when I did the test with the koi the solution changed colors basically immediately without shaking it.


Re-test for nitrate with your new kit. And everything the directions tell you to shake, SHAKE! :lol: My understanding is that the 20-40 ppm you have listed here is your results for nitrate with the test strips, so your test strips are not confirming but rather contradicting your earlier results.

Tap water, test pH. It's the pH you want to see if it remains stable.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

I baught a new Nitrate solution test and it showed 10 ppm in the 55 gal. And I re-tested with the other and shaked the bottle before placing in vial and it said 5.0 ppm.


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## bernie comeau

CiChLiD LoVeR128 said:


> I baught a new Nitrate solution test and it showed 10 ppm in the 55 gal. And I re-tested with the other and shaked the bottle before placing in vial and it said 5.0 ppm.


Well if your nitrates are low and continue to be low, then 25% water change weekly, may be more then suffecient, especially with more regular gravel vacuming. Test again after your water changes and next week again before and 3-4 hrs. after a water change. Sounds like its your Koi tank that really needs the water change.

Maybe you will never know exactly what and why this has happened in your tanks, or maybe it was simply because of the use of cold water with a large water change. Test your tap water that has been sitting, for pH, to see if it remains stable over the next week. If nothing changes, then you have no indication to reason that water changes are causing your problems and every reason to change as much water as you like. IME and IMO, as long as your tap water is of good quality, you really can't change too much water with CA cichlids.

By the way what are the pH range limits of your pH and high pH test and which of the 2 are you using?


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

Ok sounds good! I am using the High Ph and it reads 8.2. I will re-test again on all of my tanks and see if there is a difference in the readings! the ph goes from 6.8-7.6 I do believe and High Ph goes from 7.4-8.8 if I am correct! I will test again and post the readings on here like before!


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## bernie comeau

CiChLiD LoVeR128 said:


> Ok sounds good! I am using the High Ph and it reads 8.2. I will re-test again on all of my tanks and see if there is a difference in the readings! the ph goes from 6.8-7.6 I do believe and High Ph goes from 7.4-8.8 if I am correct! I will test again and post the readings on here like before!


If the range is 7.4 - 8.8 and your getting a reading of 8.2 on all your tanks, then your definately using the right test. No point in using the other pH test unless you get a pH reading ~7.4 with the high test.

The fact that all your tanks are reading pH 8.2 and if the tap water is similar pH and remains stable, it really suggests that things are quite stable in your tanks.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

40 gal

Ammonia 0

Nitrite 0

Nitrate 10

20 gal L

Ammonia 0

Nitrite 0

Nitrate 5.0

20 gal H

Ammonia 0

Nitrite 0

Nitrate 10


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## DirtyBlackSocks

Looks like you've got a real mystery on your hands.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

Exactly! I did a 25-30% water change in the 55 and I didn't syphon. Out of all the LFS's and such that I have talked too all stated that I am doing too many water changes. I dont know who to believe here or what to do! Even one of them went as far as saying those people on the forum that you talk to probably dont even do weekly water changes or they would be losing fish like you! They said just leave the tanks a lone. You aren't letting the bacteria and slim coat build up. Also they said that they aren't becoming immune to anything!


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## DirtyBlackSocks

Well, you can believe what you'd like to - but I've been keeping fish for 15 years and performing weekly water changes of 50%+ (if not more often than weekly) for the last 10 with no ill results.

But then, I don't live in your area, and if the LFS there happen to attribute certain things - while misinformed - to the death of their fish, and have found that spreading out their water changes corrects the problem, than maybe you should give it a shot.


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## Joels fish

> But then, I don't live in your area, and if the LFS there happen to attribute certain things - while misinformed - to the death of their fish, and have found that spreading out their water changes corrects the problem, than maybe you should give it a shot.


 I don't know about that, I think maybe reducing the volume of the water change a bit might help, but I think not siphoning will eventually do more harm . 
Like Dirtyblacksocks, I've been keeping fish a long time and never had any problems from doing generous water changes or siphoning the substrate. I will say this though,if you suddenly start doing large water changes after doing smaller ones for a long time you can cause some problems. The sudden large scale changes in water chemistry can sometimes really cause the fish problems. Now if you regularly do large changes, the chemistry tends to stay more stable because it never really acumulates a lot of pollutants. Doing smaller waterchanges does the same thing because the pollutants stay at a fairly constant level. All the while your fish are aclimated to their environment, change it dramaticly and your cause problems. Slowly build up to the volume you want to change over time to let the fish better adapt to the changing environment.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

I have heard SO much great things with doing weekly water changes! And I dont see how doing weekly water changes would affect the chemistry! When I do the water changes I feel like I am doing whats best for the fish and I want to make sure they live LONG healthy happy lives! Thats all I want is to do whats best for them.

I performed 25-30% water changes on all the tanks except for the Koi tank which I did a 50%. I am going to see what happens after this set of water changes and go from there! I made sure the water was luke warm close to the temperature to the tank, I added a little more prime than usual, I used the pure water filter, and I am waiting 15 min before plugging in the heaters! That way they can acclimate a little bit!

Personally I think the people that have been telling me about weekly water changes are too much are full of BS. But we will find out wont we! I will keep you guys posted on what all goes on! And hopefully nothing bad will happen! Hopefully the problem was the temperature difference!


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## Joels fish

> I have heard SO much great things with doing weekly water changes! And I dont see how doing weekly water changes would affect the chemistry!


 It's not the act of the water change , it's the volume. Change too much water at one time and you alter your water parameters. Some fish are more sensitive to this than others.Dont be afraid to do weekly changes though, cause this is the best way to keep your water and your tank clean. That is what will give your fish long happy lives. 
From the looks of things though I would say your on the right track with your water change practices. Keeping that up should go a long way towards averting future disasters.
These mystery fish kills are so frustrating. I've lost some very nice fish to them, thing is though a lot of times you just never find the source.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

When the problems came they came when I performed a 50% water change.



> Change too much water at one time and you alter your water parameters. Some fish are more sensitive to this than others


This could very well be the answer to what I am looking for! How can I perform a 50% water change safely without changing the parameters?


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## bernie comeau

Joels fish said:


> But then, I don't live in your area, and if the LFS there happen to attribute certain things - while misinformed - to the death of their fish, and have found that spreading out their water changes corrects the problem, than maybe you should give it a shot.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about that, I think maybe reducing the volume of the water change a bit might help, but I think not siphoning will eventually do more harm .
> Like Dirtyblacksocks, I've been keeping fish a long time and never had any problems from doing generous water changes or siphoning the substrate. I will say this though,if you suddenly start doing large water changes after doing smaller ones for a long time you can cause some problems. The sudden large scale changes in water chemistry can sometimes really cause the fish problems. Now if you regularly do large changes, the chemistry tends to stay more stable because it never really acumulates a lot of pollutants. Doing smaller waterchanges does the same thing because the pollutants stay at a fairly constant level. All the while your fish are aclimated to their environment, change it dramaticly and your cause problems. Slowly build up to the volume you want to change over time to let the fish better adapt to the changing environment.
Click to expand...

This qoute is the answer to your last question, Cichlid Lover, especially the last sentence.

It would probably be a good idea to slowly build up to larger water changes, by doing just a little bit larger change each week. Of course a drastic change or shock to your system, may or may not have been your problem, who knows for sure, but it is probably a good idea not to do anything sudden or drastic , just in case.


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## Mudfrog

Nah, 30-50% once a week isn't too much.. for a long time I was doing 50% every other day when I was trying to speed up the growth on my dovii.. it sped up the growth but I got sick of doing them that frequently.. now I do 50% two times a week and leave it at that


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

Ok so next week I should do a little bit more and do it like that right? Let the fish get used to large water changes. So next week I should do a 40% water change and then the following week do a 50% right?

My fish are doing GREAT!!! My Male and Female Salvini in the 40 gal are always coming out and eating!! And the Male and the fry are doing awesome as well! They are eating and everything! Could it be possible that the Female Salvini and the Male before had hidden healthy issues?


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## Joels fish

> Could it be possible that the Female Salvini and the Male before had hidden healthy issues


 That's a possibility, but if you had them for a while and they weren't sick then I wouldn't think that very likely. You never know though.


> Ok so next week I should do a little bit more and do it like that right? Let the fish get used to large water changes. So next week I should do a 40% water change and then the following week do a 50% right?


 Sounds good to me. You may even consider 40% for two weeks then do 50% to give then some time to get used to the larger changes. Just take it as it goes , and keep an eye on them.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

Currently I am waiting to get my hands on a few Female Salvini. I am waiting for the fry to get bigger with the Male and was curious as to what to do as far as stocking and achieving a pair! Here is my current stocking:

55 gal
1 3-4 in Male Salvini with 300 or so fry

40 gal

1 2 1/2 Female and Male Salvini

20 gal L 
Growout tank. Currently have 3 Z. Danios and 1 Female Guppy

20 gal H
3 Black Phantom Tetra
4 Corry cats
1 Rainbow shark

Should I try and find a few Females or can I use my fry to achieve a pair with my current Salvini? I really dont want to interbreed if I can avoid it! The only problem is the Male in the 40 gal is 2 1/2 in and the fry are just freeswimming little guys. And I kinda want a 3-4 Females so that the Males can choose a suitable mate. Thanks!


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

oops 

Ok that sounds good thanks Joel fish! :thumb:


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## trimac

dbs-I'm not the smartest guy on the block heck my friends call me punchy :lol: I still don't get what your saying back at page 1 it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me ????


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## partsrep

Wow. Seven pages in this thread about someone who has a test kit then doesn't then does then doesn't. He's doing 50% WC then 25% WC then it's 50%. No clue about his tap water after repeated requests to just test it. Zero Nitrates? Come on!
And in the middle of all this fish dying soap opera he says he has some new Salvini coming!
Some people just shouldn't keep fish. Sorry, I'm not as nice. I just call it the way I see it. Personally I think the thread was a hoax. Clearly CichlidLover wants attention but not help with the hobby. "Please can't we just figure this out?" We can if you pay attention, but ignorance will get you nowhere.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

> Wow. Seven pages in this thread about someone who has a test kit then doesn't then does then doesn't. He's doing 50% WC then 25% WC then it's 50%. No clue about his tap water after repeated requests to just test it. Zero Nitrates? Come on!
> And in the middle of all this fish dying soap opera he says he has some new Salvini coming!
> Some people just shouldn't keep fish. Sorry, I'm not as nice. I just call it the way I see it. Personally I think the thread was a hoax. Clearly CichlidLover wants attention but not help with the hobby. "Please can't we just figure this out?" We can if you pay attention, but ignorance will get you nowhere.


WOW I am sorry but this is uncalled for!! A mod should have this inconsiderate ******* booted!! :x :x :roll: I DONT EVER WANT TO SEE YOU ON THIS THREAD AGAIN!!! Get out!! :x :x

I dont want attention I just needed help! But instead you left an insulting and a waste of time post! I went out and bought a new test kit and followed all the advice given to me! Is this how everyone views me? Ignorant and attention seeker? If so I wont ever get on here again! Its not your tanks so therefore you dont have a ******* clue as to whats going on!! Did you ever think before posting that pathetic post that maybe just maybe this person had/has problems with the tank that can't be explained through Ammonia, Nitrite, or Nitrate tests? Did you ever possibly think that maybe this person has been in the hobby for 5 years? Huh.....? :roll: :x :x


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## Big Vine

Let's not turn this into a bickering back and forth thread.
partsrep...by all means think whatever you want, but please stick to _constructive_ criticism when posting.
Showing some respect to fellow members, including mods, would be nice too.

Okay, let's move on now...

Thanks.
BV


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

I am sorry Big Vine for all of that unnecessary use of words and everything but I took this very insulting and rather harsh!


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## trimac

Big Vine is right I agree guys come on let's just cool down-and I am still curious on DBS method of using no filters-just doesn't make sense??????


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