# Fontosa Water Parameters



## Brucers1 (Jan 8, 2013)

I am getting my new test kit tomorrow and just wondered if someone can help me with Frontosa (Lake Tanganyikan) water parameters.

PH - I know should be about 7.8 up to 9 but stable is best.
KH - Not sure what this should be, can you please provide ppm plus GDH reading
GH - Not sure what this should be, can you please provide ppm plus GDH reading

My Ammonia and Nitrite are always 0 but Nitrate usually reach 20ppm quick quickly. So I do 2 40% water changes a week now to get them down again, also to keep the water at optimum freshness.

Also if GH and KH are off, would this effect the fish over the long term?

Thank you all


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

get the kit, run your tests and post the results here. Don't stress about Perfect - as you said about pH "stable is best" so too is that true for KH and GH. I've seen so many people get caught up chasing perfect and adding all sorts of things to their water making it unstable. It would be better to start with your known conditions.


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## Floridagirl (Jan 10, 2008)

If you tell us your parameters, we may be able to tweak them a little without too much change that will stress the fish. Test your water out of the tap, and then test it 24 hours later after being aerated.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Brucers1 said:


> ...Nitrate usually reach 20ppm quick quickly. So I do 2 40% water changes a week now to get them down again, also to keep the water at optimum freshness....


I'll focus on this aspect for you. 20ppm is not terrible but should be the upper limit before doing a water change. I am interested in why you have to do two 40% water changes a week just to stay below 20ppm. I need to know more before I can help:

1) FTS image of you tank.
2) How big is your tank.
3) Fish stock list including sizes.
4) What are you feeding the fish and how often.
5) What type of filtration are you using and describe your cleaning routine on your filters.
6) Please describe your vacuuming routine.

I'll park on this topic and let others help with your hardness questions.

Russ


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## Brucers1 (Jan 8, 2013)

1)My tank is 5x2x2 150g or 500 L 
2)13 Burundi Frontosa (2inch to 3 inch) and 3 Moori Haps (2inch)
3)Morning about 7 or 8 NLS Thera A pellets and Mysis shrimp in the evening
4)I have 2 canister filters, a Fluval FX5 and a APS 1400 with UV sterilizer. I've only had the tank running maybe for 2 months. Cleaned the APS filter once a month, the Fx5 is only 20 days old so haven't cleaned it yet. I am now ordering Seachem Matrix and Purigen for the FX5 as I think I don't have correct bio media. I have ceramic rings and plastic bio balls at the moment. 
5) I vacuum every water change and no poop is left in the tank.

I am getting a new test kit as now I'm thinking either my test lot is faulty, or my bio filter hasn't grown enough beneficial bacteria.

Let me know your thoughts.

On my phone not sure how to upload image of my tank


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

pH levels range from 8.6 to 9.5, with a total hardness of 11-17 dH, and carbonate hardness being between 16 and 19 dH conductivity 600.
Surface temperature ranges from 76 to 82 degrees, while the temperature at lower levels of the lake remain at a constant 70 degrees.

But yep no need to get caught up in this. pH 8.2 GH 10 KH 10 temp 74 (or similar is fine if stable)
Some would even say there is no evidence GH makes any difference at all..
Funny enough my tap water is almost too hard! pH 8.2 GH 20 KH 14. conductivity 620.

All the best James


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## Ron R. (Oct 21, 2003)

You are getting some great help here! I keep my 180g wc moba tank at 8.2-8.4 pH with temp between 77-79 degrees. I do a weekly 50% water change and add the cichlid buffer recipe found here (baking soda, epsom salt and Instant Ocean sea salt).


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Brucers1 said:


> 1)My tank is 5x2x2 150g or 500 L
> 2)13 Burundi Frontosa (2inch to 3 inch) and 3 Moori Haps (2inch)
> 3)Morning about 7 or 8 NLS Thera A pellets and Mysis shrimp in the evening
> 4)I have 2 canister filters, a Fluval FX5 and a APS 1400 with UV sterilizer. I've only had the tank running maybe for 2 months. Cleaned the APS filter once a month, the Fx5 is only 20 days old so haven't cleaned it yet. I am now ordering Seachem Matrix and Purigen for the FX5 as I think I don't have correct bio media. I have ceramic rings and plastic bio balls at the moment.
> ...


*Test Kit:* I guess you need to find out if your test kit is accurate. However, here are some general thoughts they may help others even if you test results are en error.

*FTS: *I wanted to see an FTS bc some people have large rock clusters or large substrate that trap waste and create nitrate & sulfate issues.

*Canister Filters:*
I would put FilterMax sponger filter kits on your canister intakes. Use the fine filter and clean weekly. This will keep much debris & waste from making it's way to your bio media.

You bio media is working as evidenced by your Nitrate readings. If it was not enough, you would have ammonia and/or nitrites.

Canister filters: without sponge pre filters, I think you need to clean your sponge filters in your canisters weekly. Without removing the source of most of the nitrates, it won't take long for your new water to rise in nitrates.

*Stock:* Your stock list does not appear to be an issue.

*Feedings:* your group of 15 fish is only getting a total of eight NLS pellets in the morning? I sure hope they are getting more mysis in the evening or they will starve which I don't think is the case so maybe I am misunderstanding how much you are feeding them.

If nitrates are an issue, you may want to switch to 100% frozen plankton & canadian mysis. Your fish will love you for making the change and will be much more active for you and your nitrates will build MUCH more slowly. It takes three weeks for my nitrates to rise from 10ppm to 15ppm with 8 mature cyphos in a 240 gallon tank.

Hope that helps,
Russ


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## Brucers1 (Jan 8, 2013)

I will look into the filter max pre spnge filter.

Food wise, yes a tea spoon if 3mm NLS Thera A pellets in the morning and a block of mysis shrimp in the evening. They love the shrimp but because the Thera A has garlic in, they absolutely love it to. To crazy at both feeding times.

My substrate is black Tahitian moon sand, 1cm deep. So very thin, I move all rocks weekly, stir sand and ensure all waste is taken out.


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## ratbones86 (Jun 29, 2012)

you sure your filter was cycled? how long was your tank cycled for before you put the fish in and how did you cycle it? could have a bit to do with it, your filter might not be cycled enough to keep up on the load, or you might not have enough filtration.


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## Frazee86 (Aug 1, 2010)

ratbones86 said:


> you sure your filter was cycled? how long was your tank cycled for before you put the fish in and how did you cycle it? could have a bit to do with it, your filter might not be cycled enough to keep up on the load, or you might not have enough filtration.


keep up with what from his orginal post his ammonia and nitrates are zero. which means its cycled, there for its handling it.

i would test your tap water for nitrates also i've seen plenty of ppl talk about having it in there tap so if your blank slate is 10PPM it will make it harder to keep it under control.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Brucers1 said:


> I will look into the filter max pre spnge filter.
> 
> Food wise, yes a tea spoon if 3mm NLS Thera A pellets in the morning and a block of mysis shrimp in the evening. They love the shrimp but because the Thera A has garlic in, they absolutely love it to. To crazy at both feeding times.
> 
> My substrate is black Tahitian moon sand, 1cm deep. So very thin, I move all rocks weekly, stir sand and ensure all waste is taken out.


Food does not seem to be an issue.

Moon sand is fine so your not trapping waste under your substrate.

I think you're in good shape as time goes by. Perhaps you had a little nitrate buildup from when the tank first got cycled. Get those FilterMax kits and clean weekly as mentioned before. Monitor how that works and you'll have to decide on a frequency of cleaning your canisters based on nitrate readings. 20ppm is not terrible.

In a two month old newly cycled tank, I don't like the idea of doing two large water changes a week. IMO, that's too much-too soon for a newly established bacteria colony. I'd wait at least six months before being that aggressive on water changes.

Frazee has me curious if you have nitrates out of the tap?

I really think your on your way to being in really good shape. Tighten down your procedures around your canisters and your solid mate 

Russ


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Ron R. said:


> You are getting some great help here! I keep my 180g wc moba tank at 8.2-8.4 pH with temp between 77-79 degrees. I do a weekly 50% water change and add the cichlid buffer recipe found here (baking soda, epsom salt and Instant Ocean sea salt).


Ditto for me on pH 8.4 and ditto on temp 77-79 degrees.

I use SeaChem Tang Buffer (I buy it in bulk as my water out of the tap is about 7.4 pH but it is off the chart hard). I do put a 1/2 cup of epsom salt in my reservoir tank (which is used for the new water for my water changes).

In my 240 gallon tank, with eight mature fronts (before) I can get away with doing an 85 gallon water change every two to three weeks (my guess with the boulders in my tank, guessing at displacement, I am probably close to a 30% water change). Not sure how much that will change with 11 fronts in there now. Probably need to go every two weeks to keep me below 15ppm. When using 100% frozen mysis & plankton the fish convert more food and create less waste (much less waste than with NLS pellets). This is why it takes three weeks for my nitrates to build from 10ppm to 15ppm. One other benefit is that I don't have giant feces in the tank anymore.

Best wishes,
Russ


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## Brucers1 (Jan 8, 2013)

My tap water has a trace of Nitrate. However I use prime and prepare my water a day before, I buffer it and aerate the water for 24 hours before changing it.

Yes the tank was cycled, I matured a canister filter on another tank of mine for 2 months before moving it to my newly set up frontosa tank. I got my water tested today at LFS the nitrate was around 5ppm I did a water change yesterday (40%) I think I will stick to 1 water change a week. I've order seachem matrix so that might help.

I know what you mean about the large poop in the tank after feeding NLS. I will clean gravel mid week but water change once. Let you all know soon how it goes. But yes I'm happy and I think because my FX5 is only a month old (second filter) that's why maybe it hasn't fully matured so its a big load on 1 matured filter could be it.... Thanks everyone


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Brucers1 said:


> My tap water has a trace of Nitrate. However I use prime and prepare my water a day before, I buffer it and aerate the water for 24 hours before changing it.
> 
> Yes the tank was cycled, I matured a canister filter on another tank of mine for 2 months before moving it to my newly set up frontosa tank. I got my water tested today at LFS the nitrate was around 5ppm I did a water change yesterday (40%) I think I will stick to 1 water change a week. I've order seachem matrix so that might help.
> 
> I know what you mean about the large poop in the tank after feeding NLS. I will clean gravel mid week but water change once. Let you all know soon how it goes. But yes I'm happy and I think because my FX5 is only a month old (second filter) that's why maybe it hasn't fully matured so its a big load on 1 matured filter could be it.... Thanks everyone


Most of the good bacteria, in a mature tank, will be on all the surfaces in the tank (and not just in the bio media) that is why I like to wait six months before doing any extreme maintenance on a new tank. It gives the bacteria a chance to colonize the entire tank and be a strong colony.

5ppm is awesome. Not surprising after those water changes. Your in great shape :thumb:

One more suggestion, with those kind of water changes, in a newly cycled tank, I would still keep an eye out for ammonia (just in case the water changes were too extreme for your bacteria colony).

Russ


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## Brucers1 (Jan 8, 2013)

Checked my water today, haven't changed since last time as mentioned before, I will only be doing a 40% a week now.

Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 5ppm PH 8.2 haven't got a test for KH & GH but my fronts look happy and growing well.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Brucers1 said:


> Checked my water today, haven't changed since last time as mentioned before, I will only be doing a 40% a week now.
> 
> Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 5ppm PH 8.2 haven't got a test for KH & GH but my fronts look happy and growing well.


Best wishes Bruce, that is good news


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## Brucers1 (Jan 8, 2013)

Poop is building up though and I don't want to do partial water changes, would the poop be ok in there for a week?


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Yes 

5ppm, your doing great.


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## Ron R. (Oct 21, 2003)

You're going to have poop in there. A week isn't bad. You're doing good maintaining your tank!!!! Your fish are loving you!!!!!!

If the poop bothers you, siphon it out.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Ron R. said:


> You're going to have poop in there. A week isn't bad. You're doing good maintaining your tank!!!! Your fish are loving you!!!!!!
> 
> If the poop bothers you, siphon it out.


Ron uses a couple water pumps on a timer to stir up his tank four times a day. Been mindful myself to try what he does. I also recall him mentioning it helps move waste around and get it into the upper water column to be caught by filter intakes.

If this interests you, I am sure we could get Ron to explain his setup 

Russ


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## Brucers1 (Jan 8, 2013)

That's sounds awesome! Do either of you use Wavemakers to get water movement? Maybe we could use them to push poop towards intake pipes??? What do you think? Only reason I didn't was because Fronts are bottom dwelling fish and I'm sure there are not much waves down there.


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

you could also work on placement of the filter intakes and outlets so that there is a constant current along the bottom aimed towards the intakes.

Since you have two canisters, try setting them up so both intakes are at the lower left. Run one outlet at the top left aimed across the tank left to right. The other set up with a spray bar oriented front to back at the top right of the tank and aimed down. This will create a circular clockwise current pattern. Any detritus or poop will be slowly moved towards the intakes.

The other thing to consider is a similar set up but rather than the spraybar on right, use undergravel jets to accomplish the same thing. Have the jets aimed back towards the left.

The times I've set up tanks this way, amost all the detritus ends up in a small area making it so that most of the sand only needs rare vacuuming, and just the area by the intakes collects stuff.

Good luck!!!


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