# Severum with black smudges



## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

Hi,

I'm not sure just how sick this severum is, but I also don't want it to get more serious, nor do I want it to begin affecting other fish in the tank. Your help is appreciated!

Tank parameters: 
55 gallon freshwater 
Temperature: 76 F

PH: 6.5 - I have since buffered to 6.8 
Ammonia: 0 ppm 
Nitrites: 0 ppm 
Nitrates: 40 ppm

History: 
The tank has been up and running wtih no problems for about 10 months. About 6 weeks ago, I started to notice a black algae-looking stuff growing on the slate and the plaster driftwood. I think it was also about this time that I noticed the black smudges on the severum. Three weeks ago I did a 80% water change to clean all slate and tank decorations. Cleaning worked, but the algae wouldn't come off the slate entirely. It ended up looking kinda like polka dots all over the slate. I did not disturb the gravel at that time. The algae is beginning to grow back now.

A week and a half ago, I did a 30% water change with gravel vac.

One severum is showing black smudges on his face mainly, but a few on one side as well. His respiration is fast. He's been twitching every now and then to his left side (the same side affected by the smudging), almost like an epileptic spasm. It only happens once in a while, and he's not rubbing against anything. He hasn't been growing like the other severum. In fact, his growth seems completely halted. No other fish are showing any symptoms that I can tell, although there are two other fish that haven't been growing as fast as their tank mates: a firemouth and a plecostomus. The pleco MAY have fast respiration as well, but I'm really not sure how fast it should be to begin with. It is not as fast as the affected severum.

He seems to be camera shy, but you can see the affected side. If you look closely, you can see at least part of the smudge on the face and head, but it looks much more pronounced and larger in person, covering maybe 25% of his face. At first it looked like he'd smeared himself into the black algae, but the smears haven't gone away...nor have they grown. He seems to be hanging out near to the top of the tank (not at the surface gasping or anything), or sitting on the bottom a lot. He's eating normally, and if frightened or feeling territorial, he still swims just fine.

I apologize ahead of time for the bad camerawork.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

So the fish is hanging at the top or sometimes the bottom, eating normally, he's breathing fast and has these black smudges.

Do the smudges seem to be a substance _on top of _his skin or a _discoloration_ of his skin? 
How many other fish are in the tank and what species? Male? Female?
How long has this fish been showing symptoms? What was the first symptom? 
What did you use to buffer the water? 
How quickly did the algae come back? How long are the tank lights on for?

Your fish is definitely showing signs of stress but whether that stress is from an aggressive tankmate or an illness, I don't know. MOre information would be helpful.

Robin


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## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

Robin said:


> Do the smudges seem to be a substance _on top of _his skin or a _discoloration_ of his skin?


I am about 90% sure that they are something on top of his skin



Robin said:


> How many other fish are in the tank and what species? Male? Female?


In the tank there are:
2 Severum (approx 4 1/2" and this one is about 3 3/4" - both still juveniles)
4 Firemouth (1" to 3" - still juveniles)
3 Striped Danios (1")
5 Corydoras (1 to 1 1/2")
1 Plecostomus (5")

I have no idea what sex any of them are for sure. I _believe_ that this severum is a male and his tankmate is a female. None of the other fish bother the severums at all.



Robin said:


> How long has this fish been showing symptoms? What was the first symptom?


Maybe six weeks. Smudges were first. I did not notice them "growing", but rather saw them all at once. That's why I originally thought he'd smeared some of the algae on himself. They have not changed significantly. The rapid breathing came after the smudges. I'm not quite sure exactly when, but it's been like that for at least a week now. I've been using that time to try to find the answer to this using google with no luck.



Robin said:


> What did you use to buffer the water?


Seachem Neutral Regulator

I have to use this after nearly every water change. My faucet PH is about 6.9, but after settling in the tank, it drops within about 1 1/2 weeks to 6.4. That's good for severum, but some of the other tankmates need something closer to 7.0.



Robin said:


> How quickly did the algae come back? How long are the tank lights on for?


It began growing back within a week. It still isn't bad nearly three weeks later, but I see it starting to fuzz up on the slate and plants again. I have not tried an algae killer on it yet. The lights are on typically about 10-14 hours per day. This hasn't changed much since the tank started about 10 months ago.


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## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

I tried getting some more pictures, but unfortunately, my camera just doesn't take good photos of the fish.

After watching them for a good half hour straight while attempting to get a good picture, I'm now beginning to think that the smudging might be unrelated to the fish's issues. Maybe he's a hybrid severum and the markings are coming out different than they should (although the rest of his coloring is right in line with a gold severum)? I don't even know if this is possible. It still _looks_ like the coloring is on top of the skin, but it's _possible_ that its some weird coloration coming out.

What make me think this though is that the smudging happened so far before any of his other symptoms of distress. The head shaking that has been getting slightly more frequent over the past week correlates more closely to the symptoms of his rapid respiration. In addition, while watching them very closely, I saw the other severum and one of the firemouths do a head shake as well. This is the first time I've seen them do this, so I'm thinking that whatever has the one severum stressed is now spreading. There are no exterior signs of distress on either of these two fish though. No rapid respiration, and no black smudges.


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## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

One of the firemouth's coloration has turned a very dark grey, almost black, now.

Anyone? Since other fish appear to be getting affected by this, I don't want to have a tank kill. I appreciate anyone's advice.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Fish will change color in response to all kinds of stress and some of the most common non-disease related stressors are: aggression and a sudden interest in spawning.

There could also be a problem with the ph being adjusted when you do water changes. Rather than adding anything to artificially adjust the ph you might consider doing more freqent partial water changes in order to keep the ph steady. Fish can adjust to almost any ph but what they can't handle is sudden changes in ph.

It's possible that the algae is not actually algae but cyanobacteria. It's usually slimy and an unsual shade of green but it can be black. A heavy bloom of this algae could cause your fish to be sluggish.

76 is on the low side and may be causing your fish stress.

Some foods can cause spots on the fish. Check and make sure you're first of all not overfeeding your fish, (one small feeding is usually enough) and then also check to make sure the food doesn't mostly contain spirulina.

Robin


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## jfly (Feb 17, 2009)

great advice robin.. *** noticed black discoloration when i had my parrots in my mbuna (oops) great advice and i had a great outcome by decreasing the stress by moving to another tank


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## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

OK, thank you for the advice. I am going to slowly raise the water temp up to 79 F. I will attempt to do more frequent changes, but they I haven't noticed them being stressed doing a change every 2 weeks with SeaChem once a month to buffer. Is there anything I need to do about the bacteria? Other than that, I will continue to watch, and hopefully the twitching is just another symptom of them being stressed.


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## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

The sick severum is doing worse. I've uploaded a video of him now to YouTube. It's still not great, but it's better than the pictures and shows some of his twitching. The other severum is also beginning to twitch more now, although all other fish appear fairly normal.

URL for the video is here:


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## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

Well, symptoms have been rapidly getting worse in the second severum and even the firemouths had begun to have clamped fins. Also, none of the fish came forward like they normally do at feeding time this morning, and although some food was eaten, most of the fish didn't seem too interested and some didn't eat at all.

I have treated the tank with Jungle Parasite Clear as of a couple of minutes ago.

From what I can tell by the instructions, I need to do another water change, then I can treat again at the 48 hour mark. Now, quick question: just because I CAN treat again in 48 hours, SHOULD I? Also, at what point should the water change be performed? At the 24 hour mark? Right before the second treatment at the 48 hour mark? I'm unclear on these points.

Is there anything I should be looking for in particular to tell me more about what is going on? Any help at this point would be greatly appreciated!


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## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

I treated the entire tank for two full cycles with the Jungle Parasite Clear using enough each time to treat 60 gallons. I know that's slightly more than called for given that I don't actually have a full 55 gallons in the tank, but I figured I'd rather have a slightly-too-strong mixture than something that wouldn't do enough. I have been doing 50-60% water changes every two to three days since the initial medication. I have not used Ph buffer since Robin's post. Ph will continue to drop in the tank until I do a water change...whether or not I'm feeding the fish at all. I'm still unclear why this is happening since all I have is standard fish-store gravel, a plaster fake tree stump, and two plastic plants in the tank. I vaccuum the gravel every other water change (about every 6 days).

After the two doses, all of the fish were looking better. The only one still twitching at all was the one most affected, and that was greatly reduced. Now, he's twitching more again and has lost almost all remaining color. Also, the healthier severum is twitching again, although not badly yet.

Please give me some advice. Should I start treating with JPC again, or should I switch to something else? Am I giving them enough, or treating them long enough? Any ideas on what is actually causing this???


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## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

OK, time to bring this thread back as I still have a problem that is unresolved. As stated earlier, I treated with JPC twice and things cleared up a bit then began getting worse again. I still am undecided whether the black smudges have anything to do with the severum's sickness. They have not changed at all.

Right after the treatments, my shipment of Colorquartz came in and I changed my substrate from gravel to grade-S sand-like stuff (I highly recommend this stuff by the way). The old substrate appears to have been the cause of the dropping pH, so that is no longer an issue. My water company changed the source of my water though, and my pH now comes out of the tap at 7.8 instead of 6.8 - the fish appear to have adapted to this without a problem.

Unfortunately, whatever is bothering the severum is still there. It still appears to bother a couple of the other fish as well, but only mildly and not appearing to get worse in them. I have now finished two more treatments of JPC (the first two, a three week gap, then two more) and will be performing a water change tomorrow before doing anything else. I think it's time to either figure out another method of killing the parasites or concede that this is not a parasitic issue and start treating for something else.

Social concerns: s/he is now being harassed by the other severum that used to be smaller than this one, but is now a good inch longer and quite a bit bulkier. No real damage, but territorially keeping him submissive and hiding...and reducing the amount of food he gets.

Water parameters as of tonight (before the water change tomorrow):
Temp: 80Â° F
pH: 7.6
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 10

I need some help here. This is my first tank since childhood and although they are fine during the good times, I don't have much experience with sick fish.


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## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

Wow...

I'm so glad my sick fish haven't been rapidly dying. These boards have some great information on them, but I'm not impressed by the response from this particular community. In fact, I'd say that this has been the least helpful place I've ever been when asking a question of a community online.

In more than two months, I've had three responses. One asked for more information in order to try to narrow down the issues my fish are/were dealing with...which was promptly provided. The same person, a moderator here, then gave some fairly general advice about a few things that might be aggravating the issue, but no guesses or ideas about what is actually ailing the fish. I responded noting the advice and that I had taken it in every respect. The third simply agreed that the advise given was sound in that it didn't contradict general fish-keeping lore.

Other than that: nothing. Not a postulation, not a bit of single helpful idea about medication, nor a story about something similar that was seen. Gee, thanks all.

Just to set the record straight:

a) The fish is still sick. I know this because he's still not growing, still twitching and flashing, and still stressed to the point where he's lost almost all color, has completely clamped fins, and is only active if he needs to be.

b) Jungle Parasite Clear has not helped in any significant way.

c) Other fish in the tank are also twitching and flashing, although they do not seem to be as badly affected by whatever this is.

I understand that, at this point, he's probably stressed because the other severum has overtaken and passed him in size and has taken over the dominant position in the tank. However, this is simply added stress. It doesn't explain his lack of growth, lethargic behavior, or flashing and spastic twitching. These are all symptoms of something else that led him to lose his place as the dominant fish in the tank, not a result.

I am still at a loss, and still hoping someone here can help, but I have been sadly disappointed by the response here and am not holding out much hope.


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## becadavies (Apr 2, 2007)

Are the black smudges furry at all?
Algae can grow on fungus's on the fishes skin giving it a dirty look about it!

His and the other fish's behaviour points to water quality problems for me.... is your test kit out of date/faulty at all?

I wouldnt add any more JPC.... You dont know it is a parasitic infection?

Why not do little and often water changes, ensuring your fresh water is of the same temp and PH etc and properly dechlorinated.

It could be that your dechlorinator/test kit is expired?

I really cant offer much more than that as it sounds like water quality issues to me


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## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

Nope, no furry stuff.

Good thought on the expiration date, but no. The part of my test kit set to expire first isn't until 2011. 2014 for the dechlorinator.

I agree on the JPC. I was thinking Maracyn next.

As far as water quality is concerned, I've been doing 30-50% water changes every 3 to 4 days since the change in substrate. I used to think that as long as nitrates stayed 40 ppm or below that I was good. However, I can't let the tank go that long without a change now since everything stands out against the black sand. Nitrates have been between 5-10 ppm for the past month and a half.

Since I forgot to post the new water conditions after the water change, I'll do it now:

temp: 80Â° F
pH: 7.6
ammonia: 0
nitrites: 0
nitrates: 10

As I was looking at the expiration dates on the test kit, I managed to record a typical altercation between the two severum: 




Note that these happen about every hour or so (possibly more, but not much) and they have never escalated beyond what's shown. Also notice the twitching. Both fish show the same twitching, although I think you only see the sicker one do it in this clip. No flashing is shown, but it's typically minimal: maybe once per every couple of hours by each of the severum and twice a day by the four firemouths.


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## becadavies (Apr 2, 2007)

Okay, from your video i think that the Severum is smaller because he is being bullied (i dont keep severums so cant comment on their aggression levels)

The twitching still looks like water quality- OR could be the new substrate- tiny particals in the water irritating their gills/skin???

IMHO i wouldnt add any more treatments.... your other fish look absolutely fine :thumb:

The only other thing i can think is his slime coat has been damaged (the black smudges were scuff marks) and its just givin him an itch?

Hope this helps


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## Isis24 (Dec 10, 2008)

I wish I could help you out, but I only have a few comments for you.

Often times, when someone isn't sure of their answer about something, they refrain from posting. I wouldn't want to give someone bad advice or wrong information.

I don't know what's happening to your Severum, but I do know that being bullied must really be stressing him/her out. If you provide more "cover" for your fish, it will give your severum a chance to get away and not be seen by his tank mate. I own two severums and I went through a similar (though short-lived) aggression problem. When any animal is stressed, they release hormones that inhibit the immune response. If your severum has an illness that can be fought off by his immune system, the aggression issue wouldn't allow him to fight it off.

Also, when discussing fish, we often assume that an illness must be a bacteria, fungus, or parasite, and that the illness is treatable. There are so many non-infectious causes of illness and not all of them can be treated. It could be something genetic that just started manifesting itself now. It could be a cancer, or who knows what else.

I don't mean to discourage you. The reason I wanted to comment on this is just to let you know that the reason you didn't get as many answers as you had hoped for isn't because people don't care or don't want to answer you, but simply because they may not have a solid answer for you.

I do think you should get this aggression issue sorted out though, because that will make your severum much more comfortable and much happier. I really do wish you the best of luck!


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## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

Thanks to both of you for responding. I'm working on putting together a hospital tank now, and hopefully that will help a lot. I can understand people not posting if they don't feel they can help. I just feel for this guy and want to know what it is that's causing it so I can help him/her. Frustration, you know?

Although I can see your point about whatever it is being non-treatable, I don't think it's genetic. Whatever it is is also bothering other fish in the tank since they show a few of the same symptoms (notably the head twitching). They seem to at least be able to keep it in check though since they haven't deteriorated like this one has. He definitely got this before he began being bullied, since he WAS the bully at the time...although I can't imagine his being chased around the tank now is helping at all.

I will continue to update if/when I know more. If anyone else stumbles across anything, please let me know.


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## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

Just an update.

The severum did not respond well to being moved to a hospital tank. I used water from the main tank, as well as some of the filter media. I have not shown any ammonia or nitrites, and only mild nitrates (5-10 ppm) in the hospital tank at all. Unfortunately, the stress of catching him and moving him, as well as not having any other fish with him seem to have shocked him too much. He has been pretty much laying on the bottom since being moved. He's lost all color and is very lethargic; barely moving even if he gets frightened. He has not eaten since being moved either, which is about 3 days.

Temp is good. Water is good. He even has hiding places to try to make him feel more secure. I think he's going to be a goner.


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## MCKP (Aug 17, 2009)

You may want to make sure and leave the lights off for a while too..... it can help de-stress them...


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## becadavies (Apr 2, 2007)

Sorry to hear that 

I hope he pulls through for you...like Gervahlt said try turning the lighs off for 24hrs or so.

Though i suspect the stress eventually got to him.


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## MCKP (Aug 17, 2009)

How are they doing today?


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## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

He is completely listless to the point of laying half on the bottom, half leaning against the side of the tank; he will even let me reach completely into the tank and touch him on his side without trying to move away. I only know he's alive because he has one fin moving and his gills are still working. He has not eaten in four days now.

I am going to euthanize him in the next hour. He's struggled through this for the past three months or so. It's time to admit defeat and put him out of his misery.


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## MCKP (Aug 17, 2009)

aww, that is too bad. Are the others doing okay??


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## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

The other severum is still twitching, but it's only every now and then. I still don't know what's causing this, so I'm hoping it's something that he can fight off himself. If he starts to get bad, I'll try some different medications than I did for the first one and hope one of them works.

I don't see any problems with any of the other fish, so it could be something that was localized to whatever breeder raised the two severum I had, or it only affects certain species. Crossing my fingers...


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## MCKP (Aug 17, 2009)

I would contact the breeder, or LFS that you got them and let them know..... they may know what it is and have a solution for you, and it may be worth sending them your fish if it was 'defective' in some sort?? Just a thought?


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