# Another sump project



## Sin in Style2 (Feb 6, 2004)

Ok so i run a 75g mbuna tank and the constant cleaning and replacing of HOB filter pads and lack of actual results has annoyed me. The noise is enough to drive anyone insane when they are trying to fall asleep so *** given up fussing with them. Its time for a sump with high mechanical capabilities. So i pulled out a empty 10g and ripped out the old trust brain storming tool every DIY'er should have.... google sketchup.










The empty basket will have 1-2 gallons of bioballs in it. The blue thing tot he right is a 2inch thick filter pad. Havent decided on PPI density yet. Mag 7 pump.
Am i on the right track? How do i find out how much water can evaporate before it runs dry? Will there be enough space to deal with loss electricity? Must be some type of math to figure this all out lol.

thanks for any help guys. Even if its to call me a moron all suggestions are welcome


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## liquid134 (Feb 22, 2010)

well, im sure others will chime in. but i think 10gallons is alittle small for a sump for a 75gallon. on my 72 bow im using a 20 gallon sump. works great. but you definitely have the right idea!


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## BigDaddyK (Nov 6, 2006)

First off Great Sketch!!

I don't have a sump currently but I've set them up in the past for friends. I'm not an expert but I see some things to think about here. If this is a 10g tank you are not going to have much room for water if/when the hydro goes out. You haven't stated what diameter pipe your planning to run. I'm guessing with a Mag 7 it's going to be 1". There can be a surprising amount of water in the run to get the water back up to the tank and the inlet into the sump. Not a show stopper but something to consider.

The design is good although I think you'll find a lot of people who'll say for a fresh water tank it's a lot of overkill and I would have to agree with them. I think Foam is enough to handle the bioloads if it's done correctly. If you need a refugium or something outside of just filtration then get more technical but for simple filtration I'd just put 1 or 2 big chunks of foam in there and call it a day. Look for some Poret Foam threads here.. there are some simple but effective designs.

Just my opinions  your sketch really is great btw :thumb:


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## Sin in Style2 (Feb 6, 2004)

> If you need a refugium or something outside of just filtration then get more technical but for simple filtration I'd just put 1 or 2 big chunks of foam in there and call it a day. Look for some Poret Foam threads here.. there are some simple but effective designs.
> 
> Just my opinions  your sketch really is great btw :thumb:


Ya im not sure on the piping . The return will prolly be like you said a 1". really no reason to get huge with it as its pushed by a pump. The overflow will prolly be larger i am thinking either 2x 1" or a single 2". over kill for the volume of water overflowing but leaves options for upgrades later or a clog.

I was actually really excited about the Poret foam threads. Its really what started this. I was searching for a rigid foam to use on my HOBs so i would stop blowing through filter floss like crazy. Then i found the poret here which lead to the mechanical filters on that site which lead me to the sump. So ya that 2" chunk of foam there is poret 

The bioballs are more or less a safety measure. I know Poret is suppose to hold bioload well but i come from 8 yrs of using biowheels. Its nice knowing i can change those pads every day if i want and not stress of bioloads because the wheels are always there. So the bioball are more or less my new biowheels.

I thought about just using foam and using the left over space for a growout. would be like 5 gallons space so would be great to grow out a batch of lab fry or something. Just really worried about biological disturbance when i clean that pad lol.

Keep it coming glad to know this isnt a nightmare after all


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## BigDaddyK (Nov 6, 2006)

Yeah.. see for myself i'd have 2 20ppi chunks in succession. that way I could take on out in 6 months and clean it the 2nd sheet of foam would already have a bit of bioload already (i might consider adding it after say 3 months. then that way you just cycle them... of course having your "active" foam closest to the overflow to get the most bioload


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## duds (Apr 16, 2010)

Sin in Style2 said:


> Will there be enough space to deal with loss electricity?


Assuming your 75 is 48x18", every inch of water that drains from your tank is 3.74 gallons, not including any water in your pipes. If you run the sump half full then you only have 5 gallons of extra space. As has already been mentioned, you might want to up the size of the sump.

You mentioned the noise of your HOB was driving you nuts... many people say that getting a sump to be silent is a royal pain. You might want to read up on this as well.

Good luck!


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## Sin in Style2 (Feb 6, 2004)

http://home.everestkc.net/jrobertson57268/HGB/index.html
what about this? its said to be ultra quiet.

ya im concerned about the water returning at power failure and flooding the small tank but its what i got to work with. in perfect world i would have a 300g tank in a wall with a 75g sump but the wallet (and other half) yell at me any time the thought comes to mind lol.

If i place a hole at the top of the return line and aim it at the waters surface to keep it quiet it will break any siphon created during a power failure. This will limit the total amount of water returning to just whats in the pipe. I havent done the hard math but 4-5ft of 1" pipe cant hold much more then a gallon.

Other noises like draining water i might just wrap the pipe with foam insulation and see if that works. The pump itself is said to be quiet. put it in water and inside a cabinet im hoping i dont hear it.


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## duds (Apr 16, 2010)

If I did my math right, 5 ft of 1" pipe hold about 1/2 gallon. If you go through with this build and it works for you, I would love to see pics of the completed project.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

20 longs or even a 29 are pretty cheap.

I would seriously consider increasing the size of this sump or possibly linking this sump to another tank as a backup for overflow.

10 gallons will not be enough & the threshold between how much water you keep in the sump during operation vs overflowing will be razor thin.

Just an FYI.


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## Sin in Style2 (Feb 6, 2004)

So i was bored and it seems to me there is 2 issues with sumps. over flowing and drying up. The over flow comes from the pipe work when the electricity drops or clogging. Isnt there some sort of ball valve for piping so if the pressure changes direction the flow is blocked?

Ok so assuming this exists i was trying to work out the drying up issue. So i was trying to think outside the box of most sumps you see when you search on google. Anyway this is what i came up with.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

> So i was bored and it seems to me there is 2 issues with sumps. over flowing and drying up. The over flow comes from the pipe work when the electricity drops or clogging. Isnt there some sort of ball valve for piping so if the pressure changes direction the flow is blocked?


A check valve? They are known to fail, eventually.

one way to get around this (possibly) is to remove the bio-ball section altogether. no baffles. Have an inlet with a foam center with the output pump on the other end. Use check valves on the returns & test regularly. Check valves fail when you least expect it.


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## Sin in Style2 (Feb 6, 2004)

It wouldnt be something that would be in actual use all the time. only when electricity cuts out. neither line would have a siphon it would only be inline to deal with the backwash when the power cuts. so hopefully the entire amount of water inside the 3'-4' length of piping doesnt backwash into the sump and cause a small overflow.


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## Sin in Style2 (Feb 6, 2004)

well we can all just ignore that last idea. Looking at it just screams loud to me. the overflow is so narrow its gona make so much noise ill go crazy. So i went back to the original layout and shrunk the bioball basket. really didnt need to be that huge anyway and really have to question it being there at all. the filter pad should be the primary biofilter i just wanted the balls for cleanings anyway.

pretty sure this should leave about 3g +/- to prevent dry out and 2g for backwash so i think im done messing with it unless im missing something.


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## BigDaddyK (Nov 6, 2006)

one other thing you could look into to prevent dry out is a "run dry" device that is setup inbetween the pump and the wall plug that will turn off your pump should you get below a certain level. should I build a sump i'm going to have one for sure....


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## Sin in Style2 (Feb 6, 2004)

sounds simple which usually ends up being expensive lol


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

Heres the thing with evap. It shows up in the pump chamber.

Suppose ...

Start with an empty sump and fill the DT till it overflows into the sump to a point that you feel comfortable with in the event of power off. Thats is the high mark Power_Off.

Now power on the pump and the level will drop in the sumps pump well and raise in the overflow until it starts to fill the sump again with all the involved plumbing. Remember two paths empty when the power is off, supply _and_ return.

With a ten gallon sump the pump might run dry before it starts to drain back. Then take into consideration evap ...

You might find yourself adding water more often than feeding since the pump could starrve also.


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## Sin in Style2 (Feb 6, 2004)

ya i see what your saying. so like a gallon of water in the pipe work both refill and overflow. only leaves like 2 gallons in the chamber. maybe 3 gallons if i fill the sump and then start it. hmmmm. i have glass tops and a hood but was thinking of leaving a HOB running to help with movement in the tank. so evaporation could still be in an issue. 
:-?


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

> It wouldnt be something that would be in actual use all the time. only when electricity cuts out


If the check valve is in line, it IS in use all the time. The check functions like a compressed spring. The flow from the pumps pushed the gate forward allowing the water to pass. When the pumps stop (power outage) the spring closes the gate closed, stopping the back siphon. Basically, the check gate/valve is only as good as the spring.



> filter pad should be the primary biofilter i just wanted the balls for cleanings anyway.


A 1.5" thick piece of Poret foam will provide pleanty of bio & will also act as a really good particulate filter.

Another thing you could do is have the pump fed via a bulkhead outside of the sump. Getting the pump out of the sump leaves more room for capacity when the power shuts off. Also allows the pump to be fed at the lowest possible water level, particularly if you elevate the sump above the pump.

http://www.glass-holes.com is a really good resource if you choose to go that route. They sell the hole saws, bulkheads - everything you need.


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