# Most Aggressive Mbuna Group?



## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Since I'm still feeling a bit 'peckish' over the 'Most Aggressive Tang' posting thread,

https://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpbb/vie ... 0&t=455195

How 'bout we try a new angle on this most aggressive/meanest/toughest Cichlid thing? In this case, provide a complete stock list for a 6-foot long aquarium, with a full community of what you consider to be - the most aggressive African Mbuna. Something you believe is BALANCED in aggression, that will (hopefully) 'go the distance' and succeed, long-term. 
And, let's up the stakes a bit, shall we? Let's SCORE this thing. It's a game!
- Rules- 
1) EVERYONE participating starts at 100 points.
2) Fish species are limited to what are considered to legitimately be, African Mbuna and African Catfish ONLY. (No Nile Crocodiles :lol: )
3) The starting size or 'Baseline', 6 foot long tank is 150 gallons. Subtract 1 point for each gallon above that. Add 1 point for each gallon below that.
4) Each Mbuna stocking group is worth 10 points (including catfish).
5) Each individual (a single fish, not in a species group) Mbuna, (or catfish) is worth 5 points.
6) MANDATORY Melanochromis! (Yes, I really am a cruel, heartless S*B). The 'Baseline' mandatory Melanochromis species is M. Johanni. Add +5 points for other Melanochromis species. +10 points if you can manage M. chipokae in your group! (good luck with that....).
NOTE: Pseudotropheus cyaneorhabdos (formerly Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos 'Maingano' Cichlid) does NOT qualify as a legitimate Melanochromis species!
7) Females! 5 will be the 'baseline' number in a group. Minus 2 points for every female above that number. Add 5 points for every female below that.
8 ) Minimum of 26 fish. Subtract 1 point for each number below that. Add two points for each number above that.
9) This thread/game will continue for a full month: 11 August - 11 September/21. No game entries will be accepted after that.
-
And now....our Referee! I nominate the following member(s), to ref this contest:
- DJRansome
- or - 
- Fogelhund (1'st alternate)
- or - 
- sir_keith (2'nd alternate)
SUBJECTIVITY is the game here - and the Referee has the ultimate power to rule over any decisions. ALL Referee Decisions Are Final! (There will be NO appeals or 'adjudications' to the Cichlid-forum 'Kangaroo Court'!). 
-
10) The Referee can/will/shall subtract 10 points from each contestant's overall score for every 'correction' they feel is required to the contestant's submitted stocking scheme. Reasonable justification for these corrections will of course, be provided.
11) The Referee may/might/should award up to 20 additional (bonus!) points for what is considered to be exceptionally daring or unusual stocking schemes. SUBJECTIVITY rules!
12) The Referee (upon accepting this august position) shall feel free to add to any of the rules above, as he deems fit.
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PRIZE: The declared winner of this contest will receive the everlasting respect and honor of your fellow members of Cichlid-forum. May the best Cichlid-Keeper win! 

*FINAL: PLEASE HOLD ALL CONTEST SUBMISSIONS UNTIL WE GET A REFEREE TO ROGER UP AND OFFICIATE THIS RATHER 'EPIC EVENT'. *


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

I'm game to referee


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

IMO Fogelhund should be the referee.

Can we talk about the number of species and females? Isn't three species and seven females/group more workable?


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

To DJRansome: Of course those numbers would be much more workable. (Species only tanks?) But, the intention (usually) is to get as many species as possible into these African Mbuna things (and succeed!).
- 
Splendid!
Then our referee for this game shall be: Fogelhund.  
Shall I initiate the pitch then? Let's go!
-
As follows.
- 150 gallon tank
- 1M/7F of Melanochromis auratus, Golden Mbuna: 10 + (5 - 4) = 9
- 1M/4F of Metriaclima lombardoi, Kenyi Cichlid: 10 + 5 = 15 
- 1M/6F of Pseudotropheus fulleborni, Marmalade Cichlid: 10 - 2 = 8
- 1 Maylandia crabro, Bumblebee Cichlid: = 5
- 5 Synodontis multipunctatus, Cuckoo Catfish: = 10
- 26 total fish
- 100 + 62 = *162 Points!*
-
That's just a little conservative, I know. But I didn't want to give up that 2 foot by 6 foot bottom footprint. But, I suspect I may have been able to succeed with a 125 gallon tank for this. And, I'm pretty sure there could be JUST ONE MORE Mbuna group I could have squeezed in for this community, (Or at least possibly another individual Mbuna).
Submitted! 
Scoring Comments From Our Referee, Fogelhund?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

I will get to your points later, but note, johanni is now a Pseudotropheus as well... so your baseline Melanochromis species, isn't a Melanochromis. 



Auballagh said:


> 6) MANDATORY Melanochromis! (Yes, I really am a cruel, heartless S*B). The 'Baseline' mandatory Melanochromis species is M. Johanni. Add +5 points for other Melanochromis species. +10 points if you can manage M. chipokae in your group! (good luck with that....).
> NOTE: Pseudotropheus cyaneorhabdos (formerly Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos 'Maingano' Cichlid) does NOT qualify as a legitimate Melanochromis species!


Also note, fuelleborni is a Labeotropheus, not a Pseudotropheus.

You've got Metriaclima lombardoi, then Maylandia crabro.... Pick a side in the Metriaclima vs. Maylandia argument, no fence sitting!!!

Finally, the cuckoo catfish is Synodontis grandiops... though we've called in multipunctatus in the hobby for decades.

These grave errors in nomenclature results in a penalty of 30 points. :lol: opcorn:

kidding?


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

_WHEW......_  
DA' REF, ain't messing around, ya'll.
-
But, (despite my rather unfortunate naming convention errors...)
*uses magnifying glass*
I still seem to be left with.......

* - 162 POINTS -*

Hah! 
The bar is set. Can you beat that score?
And, as that weird guy currently in charge of those hated, 'Bloody Pirates' in Tampa Bay is wont to say,

_"NO RISK IT? NO BISCUIT"_
-
-
So, c'mon down, man. And bring in your Most Aggressive Mbuna, 'A' Game!


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

I'm sure we could all make a list of some of the most aggressive mbuna like chipokae, auratus, kenyi, crabro ect. but I would not be very confident in all of these coexisting very well together in a 6 ft. tank. Since it's got to be something you think you can succeed with long term:


Auballagh said:


> will (hopefully) 'go the distance' and succeed, long-term.


. I'm definitely not choosing all of them. 
I'll start with _Pseudotropheus crabro_. Kept them for many years in both a 6 ft. 125 gal. and 6 ft. 180 gal. Pretty much zero problems keeping this fish. It has typical cichlid aggression in that it's aggression is usually directed towards fish with in it's own weight class. Did keep it with auratus. At adult size, male auratus did challenge and loose on a number of occasions. Aggression always came from the auratus and outside of a few brief encounters, large male crabro was never interested in smaller fish. But I wouldn't be too confident at all with it getting along with other large hyper aggressive mbuna such as a male kenyi ( though I never had the 2 together at large adult size).
Kept demasoni in 4 tanks for almost 6 years. Kept them in m/f ratios anywhere from 1:2 to 1:6. Other then male to male friction in earlier stages and a female war in my 75 gal. when I replaced the dominant male with a smaller young male, I had no problems keeping this fish. Enough size difference with the crabro that i beleive there would be very little interaction between the 2 species.
Auratus. IME, most unpredictable cichlid. It's aggression can be directed anywhere and doesn't follow any cichlid rules :lol: But the rule of the game says you have to stock Melanochromis. So one female it is. Even a single female is a nasty fish that could easily end up dominant over many of the males in the tank!
Never had a 6 ft. 150 gal. Going with what I know so it's either a 125 or 180 gal. Since I've kept all of these species before in either a 125 gal. or smaller at one time or another I'll go with a 6ft. 125 gal and get 25 extra points for being 25 gallons short of 150.
_Pseudotropheus crabro_ 1m/5f 10+5=15
_Cindongo demasoni_ 1m/5f 10+5=15
_Pseudotropheus cyaneorhabdos_ 1m/5f 10+5=15
_Iodotropheus sprengerae_ 1m/5f 10+5=15
_Melanochromis auratus_ 1f 5 pts.
_Cindongo socolofi_ 1f 5 pts.

100 +25 + 70 =195 pts.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

More nomenclature penalty points.

It's Chindongo. :wink:

I'm not sure this point system actually awards the most aggressive mbuna group, but the most groups that you can get in an aquarium.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Agree. Maybe minus points for including groups that are not aggressive?


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Hmmmm.... you're right, Ref. 


BC in SK said:


> _Iodotropheus sprengerae_ 1m/5f 10+5=15


Rusties?!! Shheeesh.... That lone female M. auratus is gonna reduce ALL of those Rusties in with her, to a life of miserable servitude with that set up!
It's a gutsy move at least with the Crabro group (I only went with one - was actually more nervous about those beasts, than the M. auratus!) - the killer bumblebees will probably take turns with the female M. auratus in shaking down ALL of the Rusties lunch money...
-
The 'Mandatory Melanochromis' thing was supposed to drive that degree of aggressive ferocity a bit. Should Melanochromis be represented as a mandatory harem group? (Whew..... Oh yeah!). It all comes down to a judgement call by the Ref, and the rules are yours to call and mandate. Do you think that 125G tank is gonna 'go the distance' with that stocking scheme? Should penalties be levied for being too conservative?


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Fogelhund said:


> More nomenclature penalty points.
> 
> It's Chindongo. :wink:


It's missing an h because it's a typo. Had I more thoroughly proof read my post I would have caught it. It's spelled wrong. Deduct for spelling....... but I am really not placing it in the wrong genus.
If you want to follow the rules of nomenclature, none of your scientific names are ever correct because you are not using italics. Learned that in elementary grade school. In hand written, you can underline the name if you are unable to reproduce italics, but otherwise, a scientific name is supposed to be in italics.https://researchguides.library.vanderbilt.edu/c.php?g=69346&p=831719
Common names do not need to be italicized and when you use the specific epithet or specific name with out a genus, it is actually being used as a common name (eg. zebra)


Fogelhund said:


> I'm not sure this point system actually awards the most aggressive mbuna group, but the most groups that you can get in an aquarium.


Yup. Ultimately, the judge will have to ignore the current point system and come up with another criteria.


DJRansome said:


> Maybe minus points for including groups that are not aggressive?


I agree.
One of the reasons I deliberately chose a group of rusties over another group of mbuna such as socolofi, is to show a flaw in the point system (same number of points for a group of rusties as for a group of bumble bees!)
The other reason, is that i truely believe there would likely be a lot less 'friction' in the tank choosing a smaller, less aggressive mbuna , then a some what larger more boisterous species. And even choosing 1 or 2 of the more aggressive mbuna, your already limiting your chances on long term success.


Auballagh said:



> That lone female M. auratus is gonna reduce ALL of those Rusties in with her, to a life of miserable servitude with that set up!
> I


IMO, that's nonsense. 
That an auratus is going to be very aggressive is more then likely. IME and IMO, it is THE MOST UNPREDICTABLE CICHLID in terms of where it's aggression is going to be directed..... and you've determined that the rusties will be the ones that get singled out? There's a chance, maybe. Or IMO, some what more likely it's actually directed at real competitors (such as the crabro and the male mbuna in the tank).
First kept this fish around 1975 as a young kid. And not really a completely new fish since my older brother who was "coaching" my cichlid keeping had already kept it. Kept it of and on over the years, 15+ years altogether (maybe more like 20 years??). Kept them with every fish on my list (except demasoni) for many years as well as a slew of other fish, cichlid and non-cichlid. Kept male amd female auratus for many years with rusties....and never where they ever some kind of special target. IME, way more friction when kept with bumble bee and kenyi. Actually, about the only cichlid I truly failed in keeping auratus with are other auratus. Some people actually succeed in keeping groups of auratus long term. I didn't. I failed.
My only advise for someone attempting to keep this species in groups is large tanks and very large groups, like 10+ or maybe 20+ in a species only group.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Deadline for new entries?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You can call it. Do you have an update to the original rules?


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## ironspider (Dec 5, 2017)

I had two male cobalt blues that turned my tank into a war zone. Both were the same size and equally aggressive and each tried to gain control of the tank. Lost several fish due to stress of the situation until I rehomed one of them.


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## Swim_Shady (Jan 11, 2021)

Interesting that nobody has mentioned Chipokae. No experience with them, just heard they are a nightmare. :lol:


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Oh, well now......


Auballagh said:


> +10 points if you can manage M. chipokae in your group! (good luck with that....).


And yes, I totally agree. _Melanochromis chipokae_ are well... kinda psycho.
Evolution much?
That species is turning into a Predatory (Piscivorous) Mbuna Cichlid!!  
Whew....
Duz that mean they are gonna be BANNED from the Aufwuchs Patch?
-
So, _M chipokae_? Hmmmmmm..... that one really is - A BEAST.
And, WWAD? (What Would Auballagh Do?)
Okay then.... and since my 'Most Aggressive Mbuna' thing is kinda busted.... And, this _Melanochromis chipokae_ stocking group thing HAS to stay (relatively) stable for THREE freaking years, right?
-
- 220 gallons. I'm gonna heavily rock that thing. Landscape (chunk) rock on the bottom, with Mountain Lace all the way to the surface.
- 1M-6F _M. chipokae_
- 1M-7F _M. crabro_
- 1M-8F _l. fulleborni_
- 8 _Synodontis *grandiops*_ (formerly_ S. multipunctatus_)
-
And yeah... if you wanted to stuff a 1M-5F _Metriaclima lombardoi_, Kenyi Cichlid group into that Mbuna 'De-Militarized Zone' (DMZ)? You probably could. (But, I wouldn't).
Whew.....


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Synodontis aren't that aggressive, and neither are fuellborni.

crabro are mostly just big, and a pain in the butt, but aren't as murderous as many others... people just keep the big fish, in a tank that's too small.

If you want to explore aggressive... it's going to be chipokae, auratus, lombardoi, red top ndumbi, Chilumba type fainzilberi (There is a problem with that species description) and some Tropheops types. Go with wildcaughts.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I was trying to come up with something using the ndumbi and Maison Reef that everyone report is sooo aggressive.


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