# Urgent... Power out



## sharky300 (Jul 16, 2008)

My power is out - I have a 75 Gallon tank 14 fish from 2" up to 5" most in the middle somewhere. how long before I have to start worring?


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## Dave (Feb 9, 2003)

Depending on the actual bioload and bacterial load it could be a few hours to several hours. If you can get a hold of a battery operated aerator, they sell them at bait and tackle shops and some LFS, then that should supply enough oxygen to get by.

If your fish start gasping at the top of the water they are experiencing oxygen debt. Water changes can help replace oxygen, but be sure not to shock them with cold water and be sure to pretreat for chlorine/chloramine.


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## cater20155 (Jun 16, 2008)

I had the same problem once, 55gal tank with about 12 fish in it at the time. I used a small battery powered aerator and had no trouble when i lost power for 6 hours or so.


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## sharky300 (Jul 16, 2008)

Thank you so much for the info... Got the Batt op aerator and all seems well- The power ended up only being off for about 4 hours.


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## Matt B. (Jun 29, 2005)

unless there is a really huge bio-load, a power outage for a few hours shouldn't be anything to really worry about.

a few years ago, we had a power outage here for almost 4 days and I had 3 tanks (including a fully stocked 125g) and didn't lose any fish.

I got a question though........if your power was out, how did you get on this site? :-? :lol: 
were you using a blackberry or something like that?


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## alicem (Jul 26, 2007)

A laptop would do it, for a while :thumb:


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## Matt B. (Jun 29, 2005)

> A laptop would do it, for a while


but where did the internet connection come from?.....the router would have no power

unless he has one of those wireless satellite internet connection things that cost like $80/month....hmmm

these are the questions that haunt me at night :? :lol:


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## alicem (Jul 26, 2007)

I don't have a router, just a laptop connected to the internet through an "air card" from verizon. 
So, if the cell tower looses power internet would be out.  
I'd guess cell towers must have backup somehow, tho. 
When we were out of power for _*58 hours *_last winter, due to an ice storm, the cell towers still worked.
(BTW, we used a generator so we could stay in our home and keep the filters running on my tanks :thumb: )
Yes, it's expensive, but when you live in the "sticks" and the phone lines won't support data :roll: you do what you have to.
Looked into the satellite connection, but between equipment cost and the monthly fee it was insane...
With that answered, you can sleep better now.


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## Matt B. (Jun 29, 2005)

alicem said:


> With that answered, you can sleep better now.


 :lol: thanks

anyway.....good to hear that everything was ok :thumb:


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## JustPhish (Jul 16, 2007)

I would not worry too much. Think about it. Your fish all got shipped overnight in relatively tiny bags with just a splash of water. They survived all night long, perhaps even 24hrs or more in some instances without being worse for the wear. Your tank should be a vast amount of water when compared to how how much was in the bag they were shipped in.

If you're really worried Hydor makes a battery operated air pump. You can also stir the water vigorously every few hours if you like. But unless you're severely overstock or have a lot of plants which will suck up the oxygen I wouldn't worry a **** of a lot.

If you really want to go nuts you can hook up a couple pumps to a boat battery or even your car battery (or even buy a power inverter that uses your cars power supply and provides a couple plugs) to run a few pumps and keep water moving.


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## Dave (Feb 9, 2003)

JustPhish said:


> But unless you're severely overstock or have a lot of plants which will suck up the oxygen I wouldn't worry a #%$& of a lot.


 Plants use CO2 and release O2, animals use O2 and release CO2. Having plants would only help, not hinder in this case.


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## JustPhish (Jul 16, 2007)

Thank you, I understand how it works. However power is out. Which means lights are out. Plants do not produce oxygen because it's 2pm outside, they produce it because there's available light at that time. If there's no light, then back to consuming oxygen they go.

Just like how a refugium filled with nutrient removing macro algae is recommended to have it's lights on a reverse daylight cycle? Same thing.


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## Dave (Feb 9, 2003)

JustPhish said:


> Thank you, I understand how it works. However power is out. Which means lights are out. Plants do not produce oxygen because it's 2pm outside, they produce it because there's available light at that time. If there's no light, then back to consuming oxygen they go.


Absolutely false, but I do not want to derail the topic with an explanation.

Further your shipping analogy is a poor example, considering fish are packed with pure oxygen (when properly packed). The water volume is not an issue, when shipped with pure oxygen the dissolved CO2 will exchange with the O2 in the bag's atmosphere, keeping the water well oxygenated. When the filters and pumps loose power, there is not enough surface agitation to keep the water well oxygenated, consider atmospheric O2 is ~20%.

The issue has already been solved, making further discourse moot.


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## JustPhish (Jul 16, 2007)

Dave said:


> JustPhish said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you, I understand how it works. However power is out. Which means lights are out. Plants do not produce oxygen because it's 2pm outside, they produce it because there's available light at that time. If there's no light, then back to consuming oxygen they go.
> ...


LOL. Someone seems like they're having a bad day!

What exactly is false? Are you telling me that in darkness plants do not consume oxygen and produce carbon dioxide?

If you like we could start another discussion on the proper way to ship fish. But in the meantime, who decides that shipping with pure o2 is the proper way? Do you know what happens to the water in the bag once it's opened when the fish was packed with pure oxygen? I never ship any of my fish with pure oxygen just because of that and I never have any problems. And how do you know that the fish were shipped with pure oxygen? Do you personally witness what happens with the fish are bagged at the wholesalers? Or at the collectors before they made it to the wholesalers (for wild caught fish)? Do you just take their word for it? So if your supplier is offering a bunch of fish from the phillipines and says "oh these were net caught. The collector said so.", you just take their word for it? Are you telling me if I bagged some of my fish and floated them in the tank for 24 hours they'd be dead because I didn't use pure oxygen when I sealed up the bag?

Listen, you don't have to agree with me. It would be a boring world if everyone agreed all the time. But you've obviously got your feathers all up in an ugly bunch. Why not calm down and have a discussion on a discussion board? You're excuse about derailing a topic with an explanation sounds a bit like "I'm taking my ball and I'm going home". Why wouldn't someone follow up with an explanation after telling someone what they said is "absolutely false"? I'm certainly interested in what exactly you say is false about my saying plants consume oxygen in darkness. If I'm wrong I'm willing to learn. You can email me, private message me, or reply here. However, I don't need you telling me what I can and can't talk about when I'm not breaking any rules.

Breathe. Then discuss!


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## Dave (Feb 9, 2003)

Wow, talk about getting upset.

I won't take the bait on your shipping pontification.

I will take the time to explain that the light/dark cycle is a very, very old understanding of photo oxidation and carbon fixation, and it is now understood that plants do not shift from one to the other just because of the presence or lack of light.

What it does depend on is the concentration of CO2 and O2. Rubisco, the enzyme that fixes CO2, evolved when there was very little O2 in the atmosphere. As a result, it does not have specific affinity for CO2, it will bind either. Whether O2 is being used or CO2 is being fixed is dependent upon the concentrations. In the case above I assure you that O2 is not at a higher concentration than CO2. So, the plants will NOT be consuming the O2 in this case.

Secondly, unless the tank is in absolute darkness, photosynthesis can occur, and O2 will be evolved from the splitting of water. So, O2 is likely being produced, considering the power was out at 4:30 pm.

I did my grad work on cotton, and my postdoc on chloroplast division in Arabidopsis, just in case you wanted some credentials.


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## JustPhish (Jul 16, 2007)

Dave said:


> Wow, talk about getting upset.


What gave you the inclination I was upset? Was it the LOL part? Yeah I often find myself laughing when I'm angry. :roll: LOL :wink:



> I won't take the bait on your shipping pontification.


There's no bait. You mentioned that if fish were shipped properly, they have pure o2 used in their shipping bag. I simply asked by whose standard and some other questions as I've never heard such a claim made. If you didn't want to be questioned you shouldn't go making the claims.



> I will take the time to explain that the light/dark cycle is a very, very old understanding of photo oxidation and carbon fixation, and it is now understood that plants do not shift from one to the other just because of the presence or lack of light.
> 
> What it does depend on is the concentration of CO2 and O2. Rubisco, the enzyme that fixes CO2, evolved when there was very little O2 in the atmosphere. As a result, it does not have specific affinity for CO2, it will bind either. Whether O2 is being used or CO2 is being fixed is dependent upon the concentrations. In the case above I assure you that O2 is not at a higher concentration than CO2. So, the plants will NOT be consuming the O2 in this case.
> 
> ...


OK, I said that plants produce oxygen when there is light available (I might as well mention now that they also consume oxygen while producing it just as every living thing on this earth consumes it) and do not produce oxygen when it's dark. To which you replied "Absolutely false" and then something else which I'm not quoting verbatim but amounts to, "na na na na poo poo".

Now I see you've replied. I see you've thrown in your education level as if it makes you an automatic expert. I also see you've thrown in technical jargon (which IMHO looks like posturing, much like when some small animal has an objection to being consumed by a larger one). However I don't see where you answered the question.

I said plants consume oxygen (which they always do) when there is no light available and produce carbon dioxide. You stated this was "ABSOLUTELY false". Not kinda, not maybe not the whole story....ABSOLUTELY. So please explain to me how it's absolutely false.

I might as well mention, first that plants can produce some oxygen in lower light levels like perhaps what they are getting with ambient light just from it being day time, however they are still consuming oxygen and probably not making more than they are using. And second, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. :wink: Just so you can't continue being confused as to how "upset" I am.


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## JustPhish (Jul 16, 2007)

BTW, I encourage you to go ahead and move the rest of this discussion to PM. I've got them set to accept from all. Obviously there's no way you're going to be able to tell me that plants don't consume oxygen at night and produce carbon dioxide (though admittedly I'd love to see you try! :lol: ), so there's nothing more to be gained in this thread.


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## Dave (Feb 9, 2003)

Last reply.

Plants only consume O2 when they do not have sufficient NADH or NADPH, not just because there is no light. In fact, if there is light, but CO2 is too low, they can consume O2 in the light. You might want to look at the different types of plants like C3, C4, and CAM.

Finally, not all living things consume O2, such as anaerobes. Some produce it as a waste product, and not just in the light or in the dark.

As for your absolutely wrong, let me tear it down for you.



> Thank you, I understand how it works. However power is out. Which means lights are out.


 There was still the possibility of outside ambient light. Electricity is not the only source of light


> Plants do not produce oxygen because it's 2pm outside, they produce it because there's available light at that time.


Your only factual statement.


> If there's no light, then back to consuming oxygen they go.


wrong, this is not automatic. Again it has to do with reductive potential and the type of plant, C3, C4, or CAM.

BTW, I am not using Jargon, I am using the proper scientific terms. Feel free to do a bit of reading before you reply.


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## JustPhish (Jul 16, 2007)

Dave said:


> Last reply.


LOL, I doubt it. You don't seem the type.



> Plants only consume O2 when they do not have sufficient NADH or NADPH, not just because there is no light. In fact, if there is light, but CO2 is too low, they can consume O2 in the light. You might want to look at the different types of plants like C3, C4, and CAM.
> 
> Finally, not all living things consume O2, such as anaerobes. Some produce it as a waste product, and not just in the light or in the dark.


You're right here. I wasn't thinking down to that level. I stand corrected.



> As for your absolutely wrong, let me tear it down for you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/quote]

I already made mention of ambient light. I asked several times if you were trying to tell me that plants don't produce carbon dioxide at night. You never took the opportunity to tell me no, that's not what you were saying. Instead you went with the furious google searching and wikipedia babbling to try and prove me wrong. Now that realize that you didn't quite pick your wording correctly it appears you're trying to back pedal rather than just own up to it. IMHO anyway.

No sweat. Everyone knows plants produce CO2 at night. LOL


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## JustPhish (Jul 16, 2007)

Whoops, I figured if we decide to split more hairs I had better be more careful with what I say. Let me explain that when I say "night" what I should be saying is "darkness", eg. without ample light for photosynthesis. I don't want you replying how I'm absolutely false again cause someone can turn a lamp on at night.

So finally, regardless of whatever ambient lighting may or may not exist around the OP's tank at the time of the power going out, if his tank was heavily planted and the lights were not on, and the plants were not getting enough ambient light for photosynthesis then yes, they will be doing harm as far as oxygen levels in the water go. No, they would not be helping in that situation as you claimed.


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