# small and jumbo cyps in same tank?



## tranced (Jan 11, 2006)

reckon u can mix regular and jumbo cyprichromis leptosoma in the same tank, without hybridising?

i.e. there are regular and jumbo versions of the kigoma strain, obviously these inhabit the same area without crossing...

thoughts?


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I hear they all hybridise in tanks but have no personal experience of mixing them.
(Mainly because of this advice :wink: )

Many cichlids that do not hybridise (much) in the wild hybridise in tanks. so I would not take wild behavour as a gurentee. 8)

Species that live together in the wild can hybridise at a low rate and still stay separate species.

It just takes the hybrids not to do very well or manage to breed well in the wild.

eg Believe it or not it seems the newish species Tropheus sp."Red Belly" is a naturally occurring hybrid, a Hybrid between the Tropheus Kirschfleck from Mabilibili and Tropheus sp. Kibwesa. 
Check it out.
http://trophs.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4166&st=0


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Don't mix cyps as they will cross.


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## tranced (Jan 11, 2006)

yeah good point... guess ill be buying more tanks then lol


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

You will have a hard time telling the females apart as well.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

I have both kinds,jumbo and regular leptosoma from Kekese ,in the same 125 gallon tank and I don't see any signs of cross breeding.The males of each group ignore the other species females and I can tell the difference between the two species females easily.This works for me maybe b/c they look very different from each other so I would not get 2 species together that is similar in color.I have heard many times from people that they will cross breed ,but they have never had them together to know.I personally have never seen a picture of a cross bred cyprichromis,reg.lepto to a Jumbo.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

How would you know if they crossed? Hybrids can look exactly like either parent.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

I am keeping them together temporarily b/c I decided to go with Jumbo Kitumba in my other tank.I am going to sell the jumbo tricolors but they seem to ignore the other species of reg.lepto in the tank.I was told by a reputable importer/breeder that they can be in the same tank together but I will find out b/c I have one batch of fry from the reg.Kekese that I am going to grow out.I have read only one article on the net saying they will make ugly cross breds,but I have yet found a pic of one,so I will find if this is true and I will post the pics of them in the future.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

Even if you grow them out and they look fine, it doesn't mean that they don't have some hybrid genes. The only way you will find out is if you do a dna test. Just out of curiosity, which female cyps do you have that show colour? I have kept lots of cyps that have had a couple of small female jumbo's in each group and large female non-jumbo's. If the jumbo's are large adults, and the non jumbo's are young juveniles, seperating them would be no problem. :thumb:


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

If a jumbo tricolor and a reg blue lepto crossed I would suspect the offspring would not look exactly like any one of those species.Their color is way too different.If that is the case all of our wild fish would have hybrid genes in them.The females of both species are easy to tell apart,Jumbos females have a higher body and black in the dorsal and anal fins while the reg.lepto is slimmer and some yellow in the fins but no black.Ideally though for breeding purposes it is best to keep the 2 species seperate b/c the jumbos are more aggressive.There are some Tropheus breeders who keep 2 kinds of way different color in the same tank with no problems,so I am saying anything is possible.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

Good info.. on the jumbo females, thanks, that wasn't the case with my blue orchids. I am one of those guys that keep two different types of Trophs together but I kill off any fry that survive in the tank. You'r right though, anything can happen.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

dmiller328 said:


> If a jumbo tricolor and a reg blue lepto crossed I would suspect the offspring would not look exactly like any one of those species.Their color is way too different. Jumbos females have a higher body and black in the dorsal and anal fins.


I don't mean to argue, but I am curious. What if the color gene and/or shape gene from one or the other parent was dominant? The color and shape would be exactly like whichever gene was dominant, right? I thought it was a mistake to assume that the appearance of the fish would have to reflect half and half on the gene mix?

Like brown eyes dominate blue eyes, the offspring will have one or the other but not a mix?

I just figure why take the risk. Seems as though there is enough doubt and questioning that it would be wise to avoid the problem.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

Kind of funny that DjRansome wants to tell what is wrong with other people's fish choices when he has certain fish together that most on this forum would suggest not to do.Such as having many rock breeders with cyps and said it was fine to have 2 species of synodontis cats in the same tank.I have seen more hybrid synodontis at my LFS than almost Haplochromis.Also I read an article on the net about caudopunctatus and calvus having hybrid fry.It is your tanks and you have the choice of fish,just like I do and anyone else.I would not sell these fry if I even see a hint of odd color or shape out even just one out of the group.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

DJRansome said:


> I don't mean to argue, but I am curious.


I throw out what I would do just as you have done. I sincerely want to understand both sides of this issue, maybe I will change sides, LOL. Regarding my own fish choices, I do try to get them blessed by people I consider experts. The syno combination endorsement came from www.planetcatfish.com mods. The Tang stocking was blessed by CF admins and mods (except the leleupi, and they are going, LOL). I don't sell fry.

I'm surprised you didn't zero in on the infamous yellow lab/red zebra combo, LOL. The zebras are proven females (have held fry many times when the male was present). And although they have never held fry since the male died, I would never save fry from them.

I never heard an issue with hybrids between multipunctatus and lucipinnis but it's a good question as to why not because I've heard a lot about syno hybrids too. I'll post on planetcatfish.

And I never heard the concern about calvus and caudopunctatus...it's a classic combination recommended by many members, mods and admins. Maybe I'll start a topic on CF about that.

I do not mean to tell anyone what's wrong with their choices. I try to phrase my replies to say either what I would do (which can be based on opinions and not facts) or toss out concerns I have read about from informed fishkeepers that the OP may want to consider. You are right, the phrasing of my first reply to the OP has room for improvement.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Syno hybrids are a real prob in that hobby. Not that I am an expert. But to be on the safe side all my breeding keeping fry Syno tanks are single species Ided on planet catfish as as close to pure as I can get hold of and afford. I undersand that many need hormone injections to get em to breed hence the proliferation of hybrids (faster growing and look enough like and can be sold as by the unscrupleus the more expensive parent and just as easy to produce as the easiest to breed of the pure guys) Sadly the Syno hobby is suffering from the same problem as the Malawi cichlid hobby. No one is sure what is hybrid and what is not.
Not that hybrid synos are not great fish for your average hobbiest. They are hardy, cheap and look good. Just a problem with accurate labeling given they too are so easy to breed by the unsrupleus who want to make money out of hybrids.
The sin is not producing or selling hybris. I love my 6" guys picked up for Ã‚Â£5 each. The sin is selling hybrids as pure bred guys (a similar looking fish if pure and for breeding would have cost me about Ã‚Â£100.)
Same for Malawi's a pure lab is far more costly than a Met hybrid and so it should be.
Prob is distinguishing one from the other from many sourses.

To be honest I would hate to see the Cyp hobby go the same way but I guess it is inevitable. And from what I see for sale it has already happened in some places. Hence my rather clumbsy discouragement of a hobbiest who wants to keep and breed two types in the same tank.

All the best James


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

I think the hybrid between calvus and caudos was an extremely rare case.We have to watch out for hybrid fry in any community setup.No problem with you DJ.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

No problem with you either dmiller, but I do like to find the answer if it's available. 

A mod and a very experienced syno keeper replied and basically cross breeding risk of multi's and lucipinnis is low because:
1-Multipunctatus and Lucipinnis are not closely related
2-Different spawning methods, Multipunctatus (cuckoo spawn) and Lucipinnis (scatter eggs)
3-Catfish hybridisation without man's intervention is a very rare occurrance


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## tranced (Jan 11, 2006)

sine my intention is to sell fry and spread these species around as much as possible... i wont be mixing the cyps. thanks for all your insightful feedback, interesting read.


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