# Fish are dying due to high levels of ammonia! need help!



## smellfry (Jun 3, 2013)

I apologise in advance for my ignorance, for not researching beforehand, but i need help. Right now the ammonia level is too high. I have an ammonia reducer and a liquid that says quick start which contains the bacteria needed for the change from ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate. It is a 150 gallon or 600L fish tank. Right now it's at 26 degrees celcius. There are 10 fish still in there, but i'm not sure how long they're going to survive for. I have a spare fish tank and filter but that's about it. Is there anything i can do to ensure the survival of my fish? Could i also get some more information on how the good bacteria starts to grow? because right now, i have high ammonia so shouldn't there be good bacteria to change it to nitrite and so forth? is there anyway i can make the good bacteria grow faster? Sorry about all the question.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The good bacteria can take six weeks to grow. If you can take back your fish until you cycle your tank, that would be ideal. If not change the water to remove the ammonia. What is your ammonia and nitrite and nitrate test result now?

It's possible to change the water daily and keep the ammonia below 1.0ppm so your fish survive.

I would not use the chemicals.


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

Thats a lot of water changes volume wise though on a 150. I really would follow DJs suggestion and try to return the fish and do a fishless cycle with ammonia, then you will be able to stock fully while having all of the beneficial bacteria that you need. If that isnt an option, try to find someone with a large healthy heavily stocked tank and see if they will part with some of their filter material to add to yours and get a bit of a jump on your cycle. Other than that you are stuck at feeding extremely lightly, your fish will do much better with that than ammonia, and doing very frequent large water changes. You can use prime as your dechlorinator as it locks up ammonia into a nontoxic form for the fish. I would tend to want to feed very lightly every other day though. Its a double edged sword though as the beneficial bacteria need a decent amount of ammonia to build up to the numbers to handle your stocking. What fish do you currently still have and how large are they? What are you feeding them and how much at a time/how often? Your fish will always act hungry, dont feed with the mentality of you need to make them thanksgiving dinner full because they act starved. Thats seems to be new fish keepers worst habit. Remember what goes in must come out too, so the more they are fed, the more they are polluting their own environment.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Here's some info on the nitrogen cycle: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=239823

Here's a product that can get you out of the woods: http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/treat-aquarium-nitrite-ammonia-levels
Dr. Tim used to be a sponsor on this site, but I can't find him under the 'Sponsors' tab? Anyways, I would next-day at least 8 oz. of the stuff. If you go this route, you'll still need to test water on a regular basis.

edit: forgot you're in Australia. My guess is Dr. Tim's is not available to you.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Look for Tetra SafeStart as another option to help your cycle along more quickly.


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## 6Gears1Speed (Mar 18, 2013)

Go to a fish store and have them squeeze out one of their sponges into a big bag of their water then dump it into your tank.


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## jcabage (May 29, 2012)

Ten fish (I'm guessing juveniles?) in a 150 gallon tank is pretty sparsely populated. You've already been given the advice to fishless cycle, which would clearly the be the best route. Other than that though, the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate test results would be helpful.

It would seem that keeping the ammonia/nitrite levels under control until the cycle is complete wouldn't be an excessive challenge if you are willing to change the water accordingly and dose appropriately with one of the recommended supplements. The large water volume and very small bio-load will be in your favor.

Definitely get those numbers under control and keep them that way though - even if the fish live, exposure to ammonia is harmful and can cause long term health issues.


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## smellfry (Jun 3, 2013)

Ok guys thanks a lot for the help. I've just tested and the ammonia is 0.5 ppm which i believe is still too high. The fish are approximately 1.5 inches. They seem to be doing ok right now but I'm not sure how longs that's going to last. I will try getting some water from an aquarium stores filter media, but that's a slim chance I'm guessing. The ammonia level has dropped already since yesterday. What would be he difference between me doing ware changes and just adding ammonia reducer? I have a bottle of good bacteria. Would that make the cycle faster?


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## 6Gears1Speed (Mar 18, 2013)

Maybe you should take one step back and get hold of a smaller tank for now if you don't already have one. At the very least it will be easier to deal with. Once that one is stable you can use it to start up the big tank quickly. You can use the smaller one as a sick tank or breeder or whatever.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

What is the bottle of bacteria?


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## jcabage (May 29, 2012)

6Gears1Speed said:


> At the very least it will be easier to deal with.


A large water volume will give much more stability than a small one. The smaller the tank, the quicker the ammonia will rise.



smellfry said:


> the ammonia is 0.5 ppm which i believe is still too high.


Any amount of ammonia is too much. You will have to actively maintain this to ensure your fish have the best chance of survival.

You need filter media from a cycled tank. Water will do you no good as BB lives on surfaces.

You can use a product like Prime to bind the ammonia into a safe form until it can be used by the filter. This will effect your test results though (as opposed to just changing water to manage the levels).


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'd do the water change anyway...instantly removes the ammonia. If you have 1.5ppm now and want to stay under 1ppm you can do a 50% change.


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## 6Gears1Speed (Mar 18, 2013)

jcabage said:


> 6Gears1Speed said:
> 
> 
> > At the very least it will be easier to deal with.


A large water volume will give much more stability than a small one. The smaller the tank, the quicker the ammonia will rise.

And the quicker it will cycle. I started my 10 gallon tank with squeezings from a sponge at my LFS and about a half gallon of their water. Chances are you won't get this from Petco, Petsmart etc... You need a fish specialist. I dumped the "dirty" water into my tank and ran two small filters. A Dynaflo and a Penguin with a biowheel. I added 8 1.5" fish right away and had zero problems. After several weeks I dumped the gravel and water from the 10 into my 75 and connected the tiny Penquin filter along with my brand new Fluval 406. It's been a few weeks now and I've been testing zero ammonia. Jump starting a big tank with a small tank absolutely works well.


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## jcabage (May 29, 2012)

6Gears1Speed said:


> And the quicker it will cycle.


Not to be overly logical, but it would seem that the same amount of bacteria would be required for an identical bio load in either volume of water.

The standard is 4-6 weeks for a cycle to complete (without any help from an established filter of course), independent of tank size and/or volume. A larger volume will dilute the concentration of ammonia/nitrite though.

Also, again, dirty water has essentially no value in establishing the cycle. Beneficial bacteria lives on surfaces within the system, namely biological media because of its larger surface area.


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## 6Gears1Speed (Mar 18, 2013)

Also, again, dirty water has essentially no value in establishing the cycle. Beneficial bacteria lives on surfaces within the system, namely biological media because of its larger surface area.[/quote]

The purpose of the dirty water is not the water itself but to have the filter capture all of the goodies squeezed out of the sponge. When I say dirty I mean dirty as in lots of chunks of debris. That attaches to the new filter media and it's pretty much instant viable aquarium water. I just did it. It works.


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## smellfry (Jun 3, 2013)

If i added dechlorinator and ammonia reducer, how would that affect test results? i have a liquid test kit and it's showing 0.5 ppm. How fast does the ammonia level drop when it turns into nitrite? and how long does it take for it to convert from nitrite to nitrate and hence start up the cycle?


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## smellfry (Jun 3, 2013)

The brand of bacteria is biotec. Would adding bacteria instantly resolve the problem as I've added probably like 180 ml of it in my 600l tank and ammonia levels are still high. Im doing water changes every day


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I've seen the bacteria products help and not help. I don't think it would instantly resolve...and apparently you have already proven that.

Change enough water to reduce the ammonia to less than 1ppm every day. Don't be afraid to do larger water changes if your test results are still higher than that. Nothing wrong with 75% changes or even higher. 50% is a good minimum even for regular weekly maintenance.

It can take a couple weeks to start seeing nitrate once you have ammonia.


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## smellfry (Jun 3, 2013)

If i did get someone's filter media, do I get the white hollow cylinders and put it in a bag of my tank water or do I get the sponge?


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## NZSIC'S (Apr 30, 2013)

smellfry said:


> If i did get someone's filter media, do I get the white hollow cylinders and put it in a bag of my tank water or do I get the sponge?


white hollow cylinders - Yes.. use their Bio-noodles.

Also use product to increase good bio-load i.e. Seachem Stability... follow directions i.e. add 5ml per 80 gallons each day (after your water changes), it's not going to fix the problem over night but it will help with getting your tank cycled.

Limit what you feed fish until you have tank parameters under control.. and keep up your water changes!


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## smellfry (Jun 3, 2013)

How long does it normally take for nitrite to go down because this morning there was still 0.5 ppm of ammonia but in the afternoon I took the water to the aquarium store and they said the parameters were all normal. I am using sera liquid tester for ammonia. I don't have a nitrite tester.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Don't rely on an outside source for water tests. I've seen test strips at an LFS. Ammonia between 0-0.5 was listed as 'ideal.'

A popular kit here on the forum is the API freshwater master kit. I don't know if its available to you in Australia. Forum member Ozman could shed light on this. He's an Aussie.

Point is, you need to be able to test everything, including nitrite, at all times. Even after your tank is cycled, testing your water is still something you'll need to do.


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## smellfry (Jun 3, 2013)

I've just tested the ammonia again and it's still reading 0.5mg/l so clearly the ammonia level isn't dropping. The fish seem to be doing better then before, as they appear to be more active. Also, why does the filter not suck in the fish waste? The fish waste is just piling up in one corner. How would you add a substrate e.g pool filter sand when you have fish inside already and approx. how much will you need for a 600 L tank. The dimensions are 1.5mx0.4m wide. The testing kit at the lfs was liquid and tested for all parameters.


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## smellfry (Jun 3, 2013)

I've just got some bionoodles from a friend but only a limited quantity like 10 of them. Will it increase the rate of the cycle considerably?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If the bio-noodles are established with bacteria, it will help. No way of knowing for sure because it depends how much bacteria is growing on them.

In your friend's tank...how many/what size fish did he have and what percent of his overall media does the 10 bio-noodles represent?

For example if he had the same # and size of fish as you and only the 10 bio-noodles and his tank was established then your cycle could be complete overnight.

Ten does not sound like enough but it might give you a little push.

The filter does not suck in the waste because it is not strong enough. Shoot for 10X GPH turnover in your tank.

Don't change the substrate until your cycle is WELL established, some of the beneficial bacteria live in/on the substrate.

It can take a couple weeks for nitrite to go down (because you have to wait for the nitrite eating bacteria to grow and multiply).


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## smellfry (Jun 3, 2013)

My friends fish are much larger then mine and they also have more fish in a much smaller tank. My tank is 600 L and the filter says 4000L/h. Would it be wise to add an air stone where the waste is piling up, to send the waste up into the filter inlet? The filter inlet is right above where the waste is collecting.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Try adding an additional filter(always good to have 2) and possibly a powerhead. Experiment with placement to get the debris suspended so your filter can suck it up.


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## smellfry (Jun 3, 2013)

Also next time when I add fish would it be possible to add 10 fish at a time it would the ammonia level spike be too much for the nitrifying bacteria to handle? Is it beneficial to have algae eaters in your tank? Why does the water in my tank look cloudy as if there are really fine white particles in it? Also is it essential to have egg crates in your tank before adding rocks or can I just add the rocks on the substrate? I can't seem to find any egg crates in sydney Australia. Sorry about all the questions.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If your filter cannot even pull in debris right under the inlet, try cleaning it. Stirring with an airstone will just make a mess unless you have enough suction to wisk the debris away. Agree...add filtration.



smellfry said:


> Also next time when I add fish would it be possible to add 10 fish at a time it would the ammonia level spike be too much for the nitrifying bacteria to handle?.


If your tank was already well cycled with a bioload of 20 fish, you should be able to add 10 without any spikes. But always test and always have spare cycled filters just in case.



smellfry said:


> Is it beneficial to have algae eaters in your tank?.


They can keep the glass cleaner between scraping once/week but it's cosmetic (not a health benefit) because the fish like to eat the algae too.



smellfry said:


> Why does the water in my tank look cloudy as if there are really fine white particles in it? Also .


Likely a bacteria bloom.



smellfry said:


> is it essential to have egg crates in your tank before adding rocks or can I just add the rocks on the substrate?.


No need for egg crate (it's actually a lighting diffuser for a light fixture) but don't put rocks on the substrate...put them on the glass and the substrate goes over the top. This is so the fish can't dig underneath and crash the rocks.


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## smellfry (Jun 3, 2013)

There's nothing actually sucking in the debris as far as I can see. It seems like the water's just flowing into the filter as its getting pushed by the pump on the other side. How would you know if you had a bioload of 20 fish? How do you get a tank with a bioload of 10 fish to a tank with a bioload if 20 fish?is there anyway to get rid of the bacteria bloom? So I don't need to put he rocks on the crate? Wouldn't the weight of stacked rocks impact the glass bottom? Thanks for answering my questions.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

smellfry said:


> There's nothing actually sucking in the debris as far as I can see. It seems like the water's just flowing into the filter as its getting pushed by the pump on the other side..


The suction of the water is supposed to be strong enough to suck up the debris. You need stronger or more suction...like adding another filter. Or your filter could be clogged...clean it out.



smellfry said:


> How would you know if you had a bioload of 20 fish? ?.


 The bacteria grow to support the fish you have in the tank. If you have 20 fish in the tank and ammonia and nitrite have been 0 for a week and nitrate is increasing then you have bacteria to support a bioload of 20 fish.



smellfry said:


> How do you get a tank with a bioload of 10 fish to a tank with a bioload if 20 fish?.


I would add five fish, wait until ammonia and nitrite are 0 for a week (maybe wait a month) and then add 5 more fish.



smellfry said:


> is there anyway to get rid of the bacteria bloom? .


The bacteria will migrate to your filter media and grow. If you already have too many bacteria then excess ammonia is creating the bloom. Remove the excess ammonia. Maybe you are having a mini-cycle?



smellfry said:


> So I don't need to put he rocks on the crate? Wouldn't the weight of stacked rocks impact the glass bottom? Thanks for answering my questions.


The glass can hold enough rocks to entirely fill the tank with you standing on top as well. Just don't drop them on the glass.


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## smellfry (Jun 3, 2013)

how do i attach photos?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

smellfry said:


> how do i attach photos?


Read the thread at the top of each section of the forum.


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## NJmomie (Jan 17, 2013)

Aren't you worried about disease from the store dirty water?


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## smellfry (Jun 3, 2013)

It's been more then 2 weeks and the ammonia levels are still staying at 0.5 ppm. Is it normally to take this long when you have 8 2-inch cichlids in a 120 gallon tank? Also, when the water parameters are all good, and i add say 5 more cichlids, would there big a large spike in ammonia which my BB wouldn't be able to handle?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If your tank is having a mini cycle it could take six weeks. Any nitrite yet?

Some dechlor products produce a false ammonia reading...take a look at the fine print on your dechlorinator.

Adding 5 fish when your tank is cycled to handle 8 should work, but yes you could have another ammonia spike. Wait a good 7 days with ammonia and nitrite at zero before you consider the water parameters good.


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## smellfry (Jun 3, 2013)

No nitrite yet. Is it taking this long because I kind of started with a mini cycle as I had fish in the tank already? Why does e continual supply of ammonia from the fish slow down the process in a mini cycle?


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## Bowfront (Jun 3, 2013)

After reading all of your posts I think you need a new test kit, especially since there appears to be no change in ammonia over time and your LFS said everything looked good. You also need a couple of good power heads to keep the water moving and keep debris from settling in one spot. Experiment with power head locations and angles until you get it right.


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## smellfry (Jun 3, 2013)

I don't think it's the test kit, because i went back to the LFS and the ammonia levels were high. Can anyone explain why a mini-cycle takes a long time to complete?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The bacteria have to grow again. It may not take that long...but if both types of bacteria were significantly reduced, it could take as long as a full cycle.


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## smellfry (Jun 3, 2013)

Ok. So right now, i still have 0.5ppm ammonia. Fish are doing fine for now... I've attached some photos. Can you suggest anything i am perhaps missing in this 'setup'? The filter says it's running 4000L/h with my tank being around 600L. The filter and everything is in the cabinet under the tank. I have since added 3 air stones in the tank. I will be placing substrate and rocks after i have got the parameters right. Should i add additional filters because the waste isn't getting sucked in, it's just piling on the floor. However, is there a way to place a filter or wavemaker so it is not very obvious and also it does need to run through the back. There are currently two water outlets as you can see in the pictures. Also, how am i meant to do water changes. Do I just let the water out through an outlet at the bottom. Do i need to turn off the filter? Then do i just fill a bucket with warm water, add dechlorinator and just dump it in?Thanks


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## jcabage (May 29, 2012)

A few things to note:

1.) Your fish look quite small to have so much color. How long have you had them? They may have been hormoned at the distributor.
2.) You returns look awfully low in the tank. Have you tested for power outage to ensure you aren't going to have a back siphon flood?
3.) Yes, you can add a power head to help with the detritus. I would recommend it.
4.) Beneficial bacteria will colonize on sand and rocks as well as in the filter. These things will also provide a bit of comfort for the fish (which could be very beneficial during an ammonia spike). It would be good to go ahead and include them in the tank.
5.) Am I seeing it right that you have a mirrored background? This may prove stressful for the fish as they are always seemingly being followed around by a conspecific.
6.) You've got a really nice setup! The tank and stand, etc. look great :thumb:


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## smellfry (Jun 3, 2013)

I've had them for about 3 weeks. I don't rally understand number 2. Yep I have a mirrored back. Hopefully when I put in the rocks it'll make them feel a little safer. Do you recommend me adding another filter? And any information on water changes?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

How are you doing water changes now?

Reading back through the thread, I'm not sure where mini cycle came up. Your tank is new, and needs time to complete the original cycle. Keep up on daily water changes to keep your reading as close to 0 ppm as possible. Using a dechlorinator like Seachem Prime will detoxify the ammonia, and benefit the fish. Since you're doing all these water changes and removing ammonia, you're slowing down the cycle. The benefit behind fishless cycling is to not harm your fish, and do it in a reasonable time.

That is a pretty cool setup though. Never seen a tank like that. Why did you not scape the tank?


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## Bowfront (Jun 3, 2013)

I see all the ceramic media in your sump filter. If there is anyway you can get some of that stuff from the filter of an established tank and add it to yours it would really help. You tank is still cycling. You need to do 50% water changes almost daily to keep your fish alive. I know its a pain but it must be done. You have some good looking fish and a nice tank. We need to help you keep them alive so keep us posted as to what is going on.

.


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## smellfry (Jun 3, 2013)

Right now I'm doing water changes by emptying the water. Then addin warm water in the bucket, add some dechlorinator and pour it in. I was overexcited with getting the tank, so without any research went out to get the fish. I have already gotten some of the media from a friend's tank however it was minimal as their tank is rather small. Thanks for all he help guys. Oh any suggestions on how I can aquascape so the substrate isn't sucked in when I do water changes will be greatly appreciated.


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## smellfry (Jun 3, 2013)

I tested the ammonia a few days ago and it's finally read zero! I'm just waiting for the Api test kit to arrive in the mail so I can test for nitrites. One of my fish has black dots on its body. I've read from somewhere that they are ammonia burns. Is that true? And how do I get rid of it? Also is there anyway to tell if my fish are male or female?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Can you post a pic of the black dots? You can tell if your fish are males or females (if they are old enough) by venting them. There are articles in the Library about sexing fish.


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## smellfry (Jun 3, 2013)

The last fish which I believe to be a sunshine appears to be losing its original yellow colour? Also, it doesn't seem to be as 'active' as the others. Is this something to worry about?


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## smellfry (Jun 3, 2013)

If added a small internal filter where the waste collects, would it be able to suck it all in?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

There's always going to be waste in your tank. Try adding a powerhead to move water around the tank, and help keep debris suspended.

Why have you not scaped the tank, at all?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

IDK about your black dots, maybe someone else can help.


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## smellfry (Jun 3, 2013)

What I'm assuming with the power head is that it will only push a narrow 'beam' of water which doesn't not sufficiently cover the area in which the waste is collected at. Hopefully I'm wrong?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

You'd be surprised on how much water a powerhead can move, depending on the rating.

What size are your fish? Earlier someone noted that they may be hormoned due to their small size and rich coloration. Perhaps that fish is losing color due to this?

What are you feeding? I've read where a diet heavy in spirulina can cause the black 'dots.' If so, it will go away over time.

A fish showing signs of inactivity and the other symptoms may be from the poor water conditions.

I would not use an internal filter.


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## smellfry (Jun 3, 2013)

Why wouldn't you recommend using an internal filter? Won't it act as a backup and create some water movement as well?


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