# Blue Ram, White Top Lip????



## Trickerie (May 29, 2012)

Hello All,

I just got my very first cichlids about a week ago. I have a male and female pair of blue rams in with black skirt and serpae tetras, as well as peppered corys and an apple snail. Moderately planted.

I woke this morning to feed my friends and noticed my male ram has white strip on top of his mouth, with a little piece sticking up. Its got me concerned he may have a fungus or bacteria of some sort. Columnaris? I dont know.

Perhaps its just a wound? I hope, however, hes not eating. *** tried mysis shrimp, sinking shrimp pellets, tropical flakes and floating cichlid pellets. Hes been frequenting the mid/top of the tank, where hes usually down bottom.

Here are some pics:


























And a before pic:










Any advice is welcome. Thank you!!!


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## bluenapG (Mar 30, 2011)

I'm not an expert, but it looks like an injury. I've got a blue ram and have experience with fungus on barbs. Your fish looks fine except for that little cut on it's lip. A little aquarium salt may speed healing. I try to avoid medicating unless it's necessary as it lowers the fish's resistance to the meds when a real problem arises, and, if you don't have a hospital tank, it will medicate fish that aren't sick. Good luck.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Need some additional info, please post:
Tank Dimensions-
Water Parameters (Temperature, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, pH and if possible GH and KH)-
What and How Often You Feed-
How long the fish has been in it's current tank-
Tankmates-
How long the tank has been running-
Regular water change amount and frequency-
List any water additives-
Is the tank cycled?-


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## Trickerie (May 29, 2012)

Tank: 25g(24x12x20), natural biofilter from plants (dirted tank), has been up for around 2 months
Parameters: Temp: 78-82F, depending on time of day
Ammonia: 0.5ppm (test kit is uncalibrated so could very well be 0, since it never reads below these levels)
Nitrite: 0.5ppm
Nitrate: 10ppm
PH: 7.0
KH: 5d
GH: 4d
Feeding: 2-3 times per day, small meals, flakes and shrimp pellets, mysis shrimp snacks
TankMates: 5xPeppered Cory, 5xBlack Skirt Tetras, 5x Serpae Tetras, 1xFemale Blue Ram, 1xGolden Apple Snail, have had the male ram about a week
Water Changes: 25-30% twice per week
No additives


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

It looks like a wound from fighting. Observe over the next few days, watch for aggression in the tank. If the wound grows larger, changes in appearance, or begins showing elsewhere on the fish, treat with API Furan-2 and/or Seachem Kanaplex (they can be combined).


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## Trickerie (May 29, 2012)

Well, overnight his diagnosis has turned grim. I woke this morning to see him with giant white lips. Its most definitely columnaris. I quickly removed him from the tank and put him in a small tank with aeration. I salted the water a bit and added some stuff for secondary infection. However, I don't know what to do to treat the columnaris.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

GTZ said:


> treat with API Furan-2 and/or Seachem Kanaplex (they can be combined).


I'd treat with both.


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## Trickerie (May 29, 2012)

Hope my little guy lasts the night. I'll be getting some meds for him tomorrow. I guess I should simply stock up on them BEFORE I need them :|


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

It's a bit of a toss up, sometimes they'll expire before getting used, so if you don't mind the extra money spent to replace them, then it's good to have them on hand.


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## Trickerie (May 29, 2012)

He survived the night. I did a large water change and then dosed him with some erythromycin. Now I just need to wait. I hope the erythromycin will work.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Erythromycin is primarily a gram positive treatment. Because columnaris is gram negative, chances are slim that it will cure the infection.
Periodic water testing is recommended while treating with erythromycin as it can be harsh on nitrifying bacteria.


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## Trickerie (May 29, 2012)

Thanks. I noticed that as well and picked up some Furan-2 as well to use in conjunction. Hopefully the furan-2 will fight the columnaris, while the gram positive medication stops secondary infections, since I think he may have contracted this due to a wound in the first place.


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## bwestgsx06 (Sep 21, 2011)

Does API general cure have erythromycin in it? See my thread for pics of the two sals who I think have columnaris as well :/ best of luck on a full recovery to your ram


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Trickerie said:


> Thanks. I noticed that as well and picked up some Furan-2 as well to use in conjunction.


 :thumb: Good luck with the treatment.


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## Trickerie (May 29, 2012)

After 24 hours of treatment, he still appears to be getting worse. Theres no change in his behavior, and the fungus covering his mouth is still present. How long should it be before I should start seeing some change? Should I add some triple sulfa to the mix? Perhaps maybe a strong bath, then back into the furan-2 treated hospital tank?


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Trickerie said:
 

> After 24 hours of treatment, he still appears to be getting worse. Theres no change in his behavior, and the fungus covering his mouth is still present. How long should it be before I should start seeing some change? Should I add some triple sulfa to the mix? Perhaps maybe a strong bath, then back into the furan-2 treated hospital tank?


I can find no recommendation either way for combining nitrofurazone and triple sulfa, so I'd err on the side of caution and advise against it.
If you have access to it, you can try a Potassium Permanganate bath at double the recommended dose, or as a direct swab on the affected area. If you try the bath, use tank water that is free from any medications, keep the container in an area that will hold the temperature, observe the fish for the full 30 minutes, net the fish once complete and do not add the P. Permanganate water into the tank. 
I would wait another 3 days before switching meds, 24 hours isn't enough time to determine the nitrofurazone's effectiveness. 
If you do switch meds, be sure to perform a few large water changes and run carbon for 24 hours beforehand. Kanamycin would be my next recommendation.


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## Trickerie (May 29, 2012)

A new symptom has presented itself. I noticed stringy white poo hanging from him today. I know this is usually a sign of internal infections as well. What would be the recommended course of action for internal infections? He can't eat medicated food, because his mouth is completely blocked with the fungus growth. I've looked into Kanamycn but can't seem to find a place to get it. Is it sold as a different name? *** looked for Kanaplex as well, with no luck.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Where are you located? In the US you can order from Ken's Fish in Canada go through Big Al's.
The stringy feces could be a result of infection or excess mucus production due to stress and a lowered immune system, among other possible causes. I would add epsom salt to help with digestion, just in case there's an excess of mucus that could result in a blockage. Epsom will sometimes act as a laxative. Premix in a cup at a rate of 1 tbsp per 5 gallons and add to the tank over 5-6 hours.


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## Trickerie (May 29, 2012)

Here's an updated photo of his condition  The growth just seems to keep taking over more and more of his mouth


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## Trickerie (May 29, 2012)

Well, my ram lost his fight last night. I woke up early this morning and found that he went to the big lake in the sky. I'll miss him.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Sorry for your loss.


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