# crazy nitrate!!!



## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

well *** posted a similar topic before in which everything turned out ok but now... i have a nitrate reading of 160ppm. 
to cover the basics first: water par - amm 0, nitrite 0, ph 8, nitrate 160, temp is 78. (city) tap water is reading 0 nitrate - tested twice. 55gal. magnum 350 w/seachem matrix bio in media canister. penguin 200 bio wheel w/basic filter. power head w/sponge. air stone. the tank has been running for over 10 months. stock is yellow labs, met. pulp, acei, syno zebra cat, bn pleco - 13 total (2-3inches). 2 plants anubias and amazon sword (neither are super healthy) 
General behavior is good/normal. they play, fight, chase, make babies. colors are good. seem healthy. they eat well (once or twice daily - nls). they have been hiding a little more as of lately. hard to believe im going through a mini cycle at this point. here is what i did different. I did replace the blue filter sleeve in 350 and knocked off the big debris on media can a few weeks ago. thats actually not different but i did not check water at that time. what i did notice was an insane amount of poop, junk, debris stuck behind a rock. the rock is a flat flagstone type vertically at back glass for background. its pretty tight against glass. i siphoned with small tube and got most of it out. didnt come out easy, was clinging to sand substrate. i stress when i say insane amount. i couldnt see it because of backgound cover (the black roll kind that i moved because i was looking for a fish). did i release a gas pocket of some kind?? yes i use prime with every water change, i try for a 15 - 20percent weekly but sometimes its every other week. i use the api liquid master kit. at first i thought, no way my nitrate is 160 so i tested several times, then i went and bought new nitrate test kit(same kind). and yes - im doing this correctly. i repeat, im doing this correctly. i know to continue with wc but i need some advice here. hope im not leaving anything out. THANKS in advance.


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

Not much help to you... but one thing I have done in the past is used a small power head like a koralia nano and moved it through out the tank prior to vaccuming to try and blow some of that stuff you can't see hiding in the cracks out into the open where you can get it.


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## NJmomie (Jan 17, 2013)

I would do a larger WC (40-50%) and try to stay on that weekly schedule.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

good idea with the power head. I recently got one in an effort to eliminate some dead spots but didnt think of doing that. I may also do a redesign of rock work. Lots of good spots for fish but hard to clean. Will do a larger wc tomorrow.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I agree wit the large (50-75%) weekly water changes ongoing, but to get your nitrate under 20ppm for your ongoing standard I'd change daily for a while. Since you have been doing only 20% and not weekly, work your way up to 75%. So like 30% today, 40% tomorrow, etc. until your nitrate is under 20ppm.

I always aquascape with maintenance in mind, for example rocks never touch the sides of the tank.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks. I did back to back 15% but will do a big one today,tomorrow. For some reason I'm hesitant on doing the big 50% - I don't know why but I will do it. Promise. I know the importance of good water and although I may skip a week here and there I feel I do a good job. But obviously I goofed somewhere. My rocks touch the back glass I will soon redesign. I have plumb rock flagstone chunks vertically on back glass, looks kinda cool but some pieces are a little thick -1.5" or so. Being I have a 55g that doesn't give me alot of width so I did some cramming. Dj, would u say that the trapped debris is the main cause?? Can that raise nitrates that high?


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

Its simple math really one big one is much better than 2 half the size. I must admit though I change water like you do.. not always so regular. I have a python coming this week, need a 100ft model but hopefully this will encourage me to not get lazy if the task is much easier than hauling pails up and down stairs. Trapped debris most certainly can be a major cause. I too have a 55g with a slimline background and rocks against the back, I added a second powerhead in the hopes of keep stuff suspended until the canister can pick it up, but in the end I will need to do the sweeping with the powerhead just to be sure,


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Trapped debris or water changes that are too small/too infrequent can cause high nitrates.


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## Pseudeotropheus BB (Jan 24, 2013)

jas1313 said:


> Thanks. I did back to back 15% but will do a big one today,tomorrow. For some reason I'm hesitant on doing the big 50% - I don't know why but I will do it. Promise. I know the importance of good water and although I may skip a week here and there I feel I do a good job. But obviously I goofed somewhere. My rocks touch the back glass I will soon redesign. I have plumb rock flagstone chunks vertically on back glass, looks kinda cool but some pieces are a little thick -1.5" or so. Being I have a 55g that doesn't give me alot of width so I did some cramming. Dj, would u say that the trapped debris is the main cause?? Can that raise nitrates that high?


Dont be concerned with large water changes, your fish will love the fresh water and reduced nitrates. I have an overstocked 100G (40 mature) all male mbuna tank and do twice weekly 50-60% water changes.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

quick update: I did a 30% change last night. tested water today and was still extremely high - was it too early to get an accurate reading? I did 40% today. Regardless of reading i have to say wow, fish lovin it! I had said earlier they were happy, healthy, etc but big difference today. The small yellow lab i was always convinced was a hybrid because he had zero black on him now has a perfect stripe on dorsal.(still is probably hybrid) The big lab now has even darker almost jet black on dorsal and pelvic - he looks awesome. Everyone looks great.

Talking about water changes and the python thing. i am 5 feet from a drain and water spigot (tank is in wall backing to a storage area). the water unfortunately is cold only and when its cold outside well... but im only 50 feet from a sink.

Hopefully my nitrates will drop and hopefully I am not missing something. I will change my WC to at least a 30%, maybe more. I cannot guarantee once a week but i average about 10 days.

Thanks everyone. Keep ya posted and if there is any other advice I'll take it.


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## ILCichlid (Feb 27, 2012)

If your tank is running in the upper 70's for temperature, the cold water could cause some good by getting your fish to breed. The drop in tank temperature from an influx of cool water acts like a good rainfall in the wild. Gives them plenty of oxygen and gets them in the mood.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Well you don't want to drop the overall tank temp more than 2 degrees with a water change. Also be careful of extra CO2 carried by cold water.

If your nitrates were off the chart, you may be reducing them each time but you can't tell because your reading is still above 160ppm. Keep changing daily until your nitrate is 20ppm.

Then if you are only going to change every 10 days you will want to do changes > 50%. And you may need to store the water in a tank in your home so it can come to room temperature.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

Tested just now and still way high. I will continue with the daily change but something doesn't seem right here. Nitrates that high seems odd. Yes, no? My tank never appeared that... bad. Anyway fish still look great so thats a plus. And I dont use cold water. I was just saying tank is so close to water(cold only) but I have to walk to the sink . I would guess im adding within a few degree diff. Thanks again. Any thing else?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If you do a 50% daily change, it's got to come down eventually. Or you could drain/clean and tank and put in 100% fresh water (don't do that if nitrates are still over 160ppm).

You can't see nitrates...water is perfectly clear and the fish can adjust.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

Been doing the daily. Tested- still high but now im on the charts. Somewhere in the 130ish area. Guess im at least going in the right direction.


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## Habanero (Nov 20, 2013)

Jas1313,

I struggled with very high nitrates recently, over the 160ppm range. Freaked me out, as I a totally new to cichlids. I got a water change hose setup, and did about 3 water changes per week, at about 30% each. I used Seachem Prime, added a purigen packet to the filter, and then used Seachem Stability to add good bacteria. I have successfully reduced my nitrates to 40ppm.

Just trust the advice you have received, and keep up he hope that your efforts will result in reduced nitrates. Keep up the work, and your fish will show you how happy they can be.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

Habanero, I've been following your post as well. I added a pack of nitrasorb? Sorry not looking at the package. And *** done well over 100% water change within the past 10 days. *** kept up with 30% daily, for the last couple. Pretty much did what dj said. Im better on nitrates - around 60 but still high and still high for how much water *** changed. I just hope that the problem was from the built up hidden waste. All I know is tank is super clean but kind of expected nitrates to be in the 20s by now. The smell of prime has permanently tainted my nasal cavity. The things we do for our fish. They are doing great by the way.


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

Its likely not high for how much water you have changed... the more water you change in one go, the less changes and volume needed to drop the nitrates. if you did one 90% change you would have dropped your nitrates close to 90% of where they started (if you don't have nitrates in the water you are using to change with)


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## SupeDM (Jan 26, 2009)

one other thing I would do is severely stir up the sand before each of these water changes. I had a tank that I was getting off the charts nitrate readings on. With 30% water changes i brought them down to less than 20ppm. However they would only stay there for 1-2 days then back up to over 100 ppm. So I removed most of decoration rocks and the like and started with the stir sand heavily all the way to bottom of tank wait 10-20 mins then do 30% water change for 2 weeks I did this. Now after doing this I can go three-4 days before i get nitrates in the 40ppm range then time for water change again. On a down side my water from tap comes in at around 5 ppm nitrate most of the time.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

I have been stirring more as of lately. *** continued doing dailies and still cant get to 20. Im much better -yesterday I was in the 60 range maybe lower. I also noticed the huge collection of waste trapped behind that rock again. Apparently both filters are not picking it up. I messed with the outlets and would say flow is good, nothing is dropping to substrate quickly. But trash does have a good path toward that rock and the filter on that side has a shorter intake. A tank redesign is a must to correct this. Hopefully this weekend. The positive is a believe this is the main cause and not some weird unforseen issue. 
On a side note: I want to upgrade my filtration. How bout some opinions. I have 200 penguin biowheel and mag350 cannister. Thinking about the cf400. Should I do that and switch it out with which one? Or get the bigger penguin 350 and keep existing cannister? Either way the price of the cf is good and would like to stay in that range.


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

Get rid of the biowheel... can't speak from experience but from forum browsing over the years it seems that many believe that they may contribute to your nitrate issue. You could try tossing a power head in the tank for kicks.
Seems like I have heard enough negatives over the years that I will never even consider a biowheel, I will only ever run an Aquaclear hob filter if I must run a hob.


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## Habanero (Nov 20, 2013)

jas1313 said:


> Habanero, I've been following your post as well. I added a pack of nitrasorb? Sorry not looking at the package. And I've done well over 100% water change within the past 10 days. I've kept up with 30% daily, for the last couple. Pretty much did what dj said. Im better on nitrates - around 60 but still high and still high for how much water I've changed. I just hope that the problem was from the built up hidden waste. All I know is tank is super clean but kind of expected nitrates to be in the 20s by now. The smell of prime has permanently tainted my nasal cavity. The things we do for our fish. They are doing great by the way.


Glad to hear that your nitrates are reducing. It feels scary when you see red in the test result, but it also feels really good when your numbers come down as a result of hard work and effort. Great satisfaction when you know your labor is creating healthy conditions for your fish.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

It's quite possible that your tap water has some nitrates in it (it's not unheard of for tap water to contain 5-20 ppm nitrates) - if this is the case, then it'll take longer to get your nitrates down below 50.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

Im city water so I have a little of everything in there. Good thing is there are only trace amounts of nitrates. I had said zero but in actuality its about 5, so not bad. Tested today and in the high 40s. That was after a 30% change from night before. Again I hope the problem was the hidden waste. *** been thoroughly cleaning substrate and daily wc since i started this post.If not I dont know what to do - I just can't keep doing water changes nightly. Both my female metriaclima are holding, again. That group are like rabbits. And I noticed a small fry. Almost siphoned the little guy up. Doesn't have much of a chance but I prefer nature takes its course and not a siphon tube. Still would love additional feedback if anyone thinks of something im missing. Thanks again!
one more - can long exposure to nitrates slow the growth of fish? Some seem to be growing sloooowww. Yel lab particularly. Eats good but its like a year old or better and barely 2". Half the size of some others(same age). Overall they all seem to grow slow. Im fine with that as long as they're healthy.


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

My fish all grow faster when I keep up my weekly water changes. When I slack off, and get lazy and not change it for 2,3,4 weeks at a time the difference is noticeable. Finally got a python so I am looking forward to seeing some growth again, hauling buckets up and down stairs was a pain.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

I wanted to post an update: I am still struggling. Just checked now and im at 80+. (3 days after water change. I changed my routine for more than the past month. I do 1 wc weekly at 40%. I siphon any visible junk. I added more plants. (Given to me free). I ditched the penguin hob and added a filstar xp3 (running with the magnum 350 so much more bio media as well). Tank looks perfect fish seem very healthy. So im thinking the test kit is bad even though it gives diff reading on tap. I cant do any more and judging by fish behavior and appearance, they dont care. What else can cause this? Im at the point now where I might toss the test kit and never check it again.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Change at least 50% weekly and test immediately after. If you are not coming down fast enough, change 75% weekly. What is your stocking?


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

I can bump to 50% was planning on it for next anyway. Might do a 75 like u said . My stock is 14 total. 5 labs, 4 met.pulp., 1 mystery fish, 1 acei, 1 bn pleco, 2 synos... 3" and under.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

I forgot one thing. There was a few times that I tested day after and it was lower. Never under 40 but by end of week it was back up. Even when I did 100% over one weekend it jumped back up. I have been listening to you djransome


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## StangG20 (Aug 12, 2013)

i think you probably are overfeeding. i know that was the case for me for a while. be sure to only feed what they can eat in 60 seconds. or 30 seconds twice a day!


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

I feed what they eat 30-60 seconds once sometimes twice daily and skip a day.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Or even 30 seconds 1X daily and fast 1 day weekly.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

Thats usually what I do. Thats what I meant by skip a day.(fast) i know I am not overfeeding.

another question. Can plants that are not healthy do more harm than good? Some are fine but my lighting is not set up for it.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Rotting plants (or anything) will add to the nitrates. If your nitrates are low after a water change and your tank is not overstocked then you are adding nitrates during the week somehow. It's just science.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

Thats been my process of elimination as of lately. I think I have everything right. Stock, feeding, wc schedule/cleaning, etc. I had a struggling plant and when I pulled it I noticed root rot but was unsure of how that could affect water parameters. I do like the way the plants look but they are hard to keep healthy in this tank. (Dj - I did have a rotting mystery snail in there.Poor guy. He was cool looking too)


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## Sidius (Mar 3, 2012)

No intention of hijacking your thread Jas but since my question is related to high nitrates and water changes, I didn't feel the need to start a new thread.

What do people with permanent scapes do? Meaning what do you do if you have a scape that doesn't allow for easy cleaning? I'm going to start a 180g build with rock piles and I'd like to attempt to plant it fairly heavily with anubias, java fern, amazon swords, giant leaf hygro. I don't want to disrupt things much when cleaning and doing my water changes so how do others keep nitrates in check without dismantling everything or doing daily water changes? I'm guessing that lots of waste builds up amongst the rocks.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

Well not sure if im best to ask... my nitrates are always high. I feel I do everything right but, idk. 
Follow a good check list: good stock numbers, feeding, water change, real good filtration. Plants which it sounds like you're doing quite a few. I think my major issue has been built up (hidden waste) which is what you're really getting at with your question. I think water flow/circulation is key for that. With your size tank I would read up on under gravel jets or whatever they are... I dont have em so I dont know much about them. But with semi permanent rockscapes keeping everything(waste) moving is important. I finally have positioned the currant to push everything toward filter intake. It makes for easy siphoning in basically one main spot. So... my answer to you is water flow. Keep it moving down low.
my syno cats actually help keep things stirred up as well. 
*** seen big tank builds on here with jet schematics that are rather impressive. Try to find one. Keep us all posted - a good success story may prevent others from pulling out their hair!


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

I guess while am at it I'll post an update. Still not good. Nitrates around 80 and thats after a 40%wc yesterday morning. Its been about 3 months of babysitting this tank and have gotten no where. So... fish obviously dont mind. My small 10g planted tank is at 10 nitrates. Go figure. 
One more question before I throw away the test kit. Can certain rocks promote nitrate increases? Maybe a feather rock? Can it get too much bacteria jammed in it that it reverses to bad bacteria? I dont have anything strange in there: granite boulders, a feather rock, some plumb wood flagstone for bg. Maybe reaching on that but trying to cover everything. 
Aside from that fish are great. Had 3 holding females - 2 spit so I see an occasional little one. Everyone is happy. They have not complained yet


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yes anything that traps dirt can cause high nitrates.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

That would be unfortunate. My fish love that feather rock. I have it carved with holes and a nice cave that has had many a spawn. Its the playboy grotto.
I have heard it go both ways with that rock: that it can house beneficial bacteria and an over abundance of bad bacteria.
Well Dj I guess I'll pull it see if it helps. Give it a good soak as well.


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