# Bolivian rams help with high ph



## chrisp6108 (Jul 31, 2006)

I decided to pull out my old aquarium, and started my 10 gallon hex tank, put it together about a week ago, and bought some cheap fish to stat a cycle on the tank, after a few days everythig was all good, and i went to my LFS and wanted 2 bolivian rams, and instead the guy told me a treo would be best for cichlids, i said my tanks too small, and he replied there tank raised, i dont think it will make that big of a difference, so i caved and said ok sure, i get home and put them in was fine for a few days, i checked the ph on sunday and it was 7.6 or higher (my test kit only goes to 7.6), so i removed the starter fish (became fish food for africans), monday rolls around and i do another test and its still 7.6 or higher, so i did a 2 gallon water change, my bolivian rams are still not eating after 3 or 4 days, today i get up after going to lfs and discover one of them died, the eye was picked out of it, which means the male attacked one of the females i had, my guess is trying to establish dominace in the tank, i do another ph test, and its still 7.6 or higher, so i did another 1 gallong water change, and added 5 drops of ph down (calls for 20 for 10 gallons, i dont want to change the ph too fast or ill crash the tank which would be bad). water temp is stable around 77 degress- 78 deg. only good news, i seen them trying to eat today while i was doing the 1 gallon water change, they both was out in the bottom looking for something on the floor to eat, which is a good sign that they are going to start eating.

as for the setup, i have a 30 gallong hob filter, and water heater. 
alot of rock structures for hiding places and fake plants ( in the middle of growing live plants to replace them) and about 1 lb of driftwood to help the PH (put in with the rams).

Any other suggestions on how to safely lower the ph?


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## addicted2cichlid (Apr 8, 2008)

how do u know after a few days your tank was good? did u test the water, cycling takes longer than a few days if ur using fish.

10 hex is too small for bolivians. if u already have a larger filter and heater than i would suggest gettin a 20 or 20 long gallon tank.

i would get a high ph test kit.

putting peat moss in a the filter would lower the ph, but u would need to do it slowly over a week or so. dramatic changes in water parameters are not healthy for the rams.

bolivians, especially tank raised were probably in water close to your ph. call and ask the store what there tank ph is at, along with any other parameters u can get.

bolivians will do fine in 7.6 ph, they are not blue rams. as long as u can keep the water clean and consistent they shoudl be fine.

but get a bigger tank!

good luck dude :thumb:


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I've seen far too many problems with using the ph adjusters that the LFS sells...Not something I would do.

addicted2cichlid is right, tank raised fish are usually more adaptable to different ph levels than they have in the wild.

I would be more concerned about my water quality than aggression being the issue behind the death of the one Bolivian. It doesn't sound like the tank was cycled when you added the fish.

What are the current water parameters on the tank?


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## chrisp6108 (Jul 31, 2006)

i have 2 29 gallons not working currently , and yes i could use the filter and heater because it came from th 29 but its lack of space, i would like to drop the ph to 7.0 but, like i mentioned before and you stated, has to be done lower, and no eating i can understand takes a few days , and yes i was going to try peat pellets but i cannot find them anywhere due to being fall, out of season sadly.  , as for cycling yes i know that takes weeks to complete cycling, im just starting to think it was dead because the male attacked it, trying to state dominance in the tank is only thing i can think of


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I would stop worrying about the ph and focus on the water quality as far as ammonia, nitrates and nitrite go. :thumb:


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

G'day *chrisp6108*,



> I would stop worrying about the ph and focus on the water quality as far as ammonia, nitrates and nitrite go.


I agree with *cichlidaholic*. I don't understand what the constant water changes and your PH reading have to do with each other.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

I read some things that are perfect situations for troubles.

Tanks size,.....much to small!!! At least a 30 gallon is needed for 3 Bolivians or a 20 gallon for a *pair*

The cycling of a tank takes abouth an average of 4 to 6 weeks. When introducing new fish the tank starts again a mini cycle. For that you should keep a close eye on the readings of nitrate, nitrite and ammonia for the first 3 months or so. A cycle can be shortened if water and filter media from an established tank are put in the new tank.

Aggression is not odd but could be expected in a tank that is only 1/3 of the recommended size.

A water change of only 10% doesn't make much diference. I recommend at least 20% and in your situation 2 times a week 30% to 50% would be a better option (but also depends on the reading of nitrate nitrites and ammonia)

Bolivians do best in small groups of 5 or more. They also can be kept as a pair but it has to be a solid pair! If not the male can kill the female when she is not ready to breed or doesn't take her responsibilities on rearing the fry.

Using chemicals for PH+ and PH- as well as lots of odd stuff labeled to improve the slime coat on the fish are often the reason for troubles!!! I realy recommend to put that stuff in the garbage can!!! Of course the lfs tels you it will be necessary,....they need to make money you know. What I don't understand is that you added the PH- while you didn't knew the exact PH. Why?

A stable PH is of more importance in your case. I also suggest to focus on nitrates, nitrite and ammonia. I also suggest to do some more reading on cycling a new tank. You will need that on setting up a larger tank for the Bolivians becouse the 10 gallon is much to small.

Bolivians are hardy fish and tolerate a PH up to 8. They probably won't be able to breed on a PH of 8 but they can on PH=7.5. I prefer PH=6 to 7.5 for Bolivians.


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## chrisp6108 (Jul 31, 2006)

ph is 7.9-8.0
NO2 0.00
NO3 0.00
NH3/NH+4 .25

forgot to add, 24 hour tap water in a cup tested 8.2 for ph

any suggestions?


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Can you give your KH and GH readings please....


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

For now the PH is OK. A bit high so eggs probably won't hatch but it is save to keep them in PH=8. Like Blair already asked,...what is the KH and GH. If those readings are low enough you will be able to lower the PH with peat.

Your tank isn't cycled yet. Although the NO2 reading is "0" (thats good), your NO3 reading is also "0". This points at bacteria that still need to defelop and grow in number. I suggest to keep a close eye on the NO2 becouse this can raise in the next couple of weeks! Your ammonia level is high but not extremely. I do suggest a 30% water change right away and check it tomorrow again!

So,...what are the future plans for the tank/Bolivians?


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## chrisp6108 (Jul 31, 2006)

..sorry my internet is verry laggy today


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## chrisp6108 (Jul 31, 2006)

opps double post


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## chrisp6108 (Jul 31, 2006)

future of the fish will be to let them gorw for a few months in this tank, probably till spring time or early summer, and look into finding a good place for my 29 gallon that i have eather still at my parents house or the one ihave upstairs holding a tv. but room is the issue, and i beleive we will be moving in june so i hope they can make it till then in this tank, but that i will find out, as for the water change, yes i had plans on doing that this afternoon when i get off work, but i am going to cycle in spring water from the grochery store, i know this will help keep lower ph then my tap water which tested at 8.2. and as for other readings, my test kit does not have any of those readins so i am not sure honestly, thats why im going to switch it slowly to spring water


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## chrisp6108 (Jul 31, 2006)

Did another round of testing,
Ph 8
Ammonia 1
NO2 .125
NO3 .5. 
(I believe could be backwards for both no's but I'm sure thÃ ts right)

So I did a 2 gallon water change last night to drop the ammonia, so it seems I hip a spike of nitrate and ammonia which is a good to see it cycle.


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## chrisp6108 (Jul 31, 2006)

Did another round of testing,
Ph 8
Ammonia 1
NO2 .125
NO3 .5. 
(I believe could be backwards for both no's but I'm sure thÃ ts right)

So I did a 2 gallon water change last night to drop the ammonia, so it seems I hip a spike of nitrate and ammonia which is a good to see it cycle.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

I suggest to do larger wc with readings like this and somewhere around the 4 to 5 gallon. The tank starts to cycle and you can expect a spike in the next couple of weeks. Keep a close eye on the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate!!! I suggest to be careful with feedings and keep waste levels low.


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## chrisp6108 (Jul 31, 2006)

With all the rock and wood and plants, a 5 gallon water change would be about 75 percent of the water the two gallons was just to the tip of my hob filter inlet pipe. Which I would say is around 1/3 or more of the water. And yes my plan was to feed them once a day for first 2 weeks during this cycle process to help keep numbers down.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Well then take the rocks out to provide your fish some more water in a tank that is already much to small.


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## chrisp6108 (Jul 31, 2006)

that would not make alot of since, because if i take the structure away from them, they would have no way to stay away from each other at times so its not constant agression. but maybe thats just my point of view.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

You don't need rocks, Rams aren't cave or rock dwellers as such, they benefit from having a segregated and dense aquascape but this can be easily accomplished with plants and some driftwood, without compromising what little water volume you already have to "play" with, especially considering the comparative displacement of water when using rocks. Water volume is precious to you and your fish right now, especially when going through cycling with these fish, less water = quicker build-up of waste, ie ammonia, ie higher toxicity at increased rates.

I'd listen to Dutch Dude if I were you, he's talking from a lot of experience with these fish. You wouldn't be advised to do something that was detrimental to the fish.

I learnt a lot from Dutch Dude, he knows his stuff.

:thumb:


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