# The Newbie goes big! 125gallon Aqueon!



## rookie-cichlid1978

Hello all,

I have a couple of threads in the Lake Malawi forum about my failures as a newbie with a 25g tank. But no more...got a great deal last night for a 125 gallon Aqueon that I will pick up on thursday (after bribing a friend to lift one end!) Most of my mistakes came from not setting up a bio filter correctly and then getting cichlids that were too big and too aggressive for my small tank. I have been reading and assimilating info on this site to get better results since a 125-gallon is not going to be easy to return!

Some startup/procurement questions please?

Substrate:
I like the pool sand substrate idea from an article in the library. Its inexpensive, and arrives pre-cleaned. Do I eliminate certain fish by using pool sand instead of river sand or gravel??

Filtration:
The aquarium is getting pride of place in the living room (one side against the wall). Would like to get quiet filtration - my current HOB Aqueon is quite noisy. Are canister filters the way to go? The FX6 costs an arm and a leg! Are there economical high performance options? I calculated 8x capacity or 1000gph filtration rate - is that accurate and sufficient?
Any other media, sponges etc to procure?
Do I need aeration - if yes, what are my options for this tank size?

Heater:
Do I need the 300W? Are there any "green" or energy efficient options?

Aquascaping:
I would love to place a few live plants. I had success with Anubias and Hornwort in my current tank (still green and the previous cichlids didnt maul them). Can I keep going with these? Any other nice ones?
Tank is 72L x 18.5W x 24H. Is there a rule of thumb for "height of aquascaping"? How about "depth" when standing in front? Do most folks place the rocks further back to allow visibility on the front side? The types of cichlids have not been nailed yet but I have a good species recommendation from the Lake Malawi forum (mix of Mbuna and Haps like S. fryeri, yellow Labs, P. acei, P. electra etc.)
Anything against "manufactured rocks"? I will have some naturals as well.
Due to the size of the tank and high pH/hardness level of Denver tap water, I plan to put 2-3 small driftwood pieces. Unless there is strong objection from the experienced folks here.

Biofilter is going to take 6-8 weeks so I am starting to plan the tank and get off the ground so that I have something to show before summer ends! May try to get a media filter from local LFS to speed things up.

Appreciate any feedback to my questions and gentle whacks on the head if I am forgetting basic setup rules or requirements. Thank you!


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## DJRansome

rookie-cichlid1978 said:


> Do I eliminate certain fish by using pool sand instead of river sand or gravel??


Below you talk about Africans (Malawi). You don't eliminate any of them. Hopefully you did not buy a 72" tank for SA or CA without checking out their requirements first?



rookie-cichlid1978 said:


> - my current HOB Aqueon is quite noisy.


This should not be the case unless the water level drops.



rookie-cichlid1978 said:


> Are canister filters the way to go? .


They are quietest IME.


rookie-cichlid1978 said:


> The FX6 costs an arm and a leg! Are there economical high performance options?.


Actually $339 is cheap. I would buy 2 Rena Filstar XP XL filters at $190 each so $339 is much less.


rookie-cichlid1978 said:


> I calculated 8x capacity or 1000gph filtration rate - is that accurate and sufficient?.


Yes. Media comes with the unit. With 8X GPH you should be OK with just the filter for oxygenation.



rookie-cichlid1978 said:


> Do I need the 300W? Are there any "green" or energy efficient options?


Three watts/gallon. I like having 2 heaters in case one fails. Green options are for multiple tanks...you can have a system for all. IDK of anything for a show tank in the living room. I like the Hydor in line heaters to keep the apparatus out of the tank.



rookie-cichlid1978 said:


> I had success with Anubias and Hornwort in my current tank (still green and the previous cichlids didnt maul them). Can I keep going with these? Any other nice ones?


 You are lucky...my fish eat everything. Java fern is another plant that may survive the cichlids.



rookie-cichlid1978 said:


> Do most folks place the rocks further back to allow visibility on the front side? Anything against "manufactured rocks"?


No...if you have enough rocks they are going to take most of the 18". I allow one "Python-width" around all rock piles for ease of maintenance. If you think filters are expensive, wait until you see manufactured rocks. Save your $$ for the filters, buy rocks at landscape supply for pennies/pound. No worries about weight, and the fake ones are hollow inside...you don't get all the small nooks and crannies the fish like.



rookie-cichlid1978 said:


> I plan to put 2-3 small driftwood pieces.


The nice pieces are pricey and not part of the biotope of the African Rift Lake cichlids. Again I would invest in filters. But it will not hurt the fish.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

Thanks, DJRansome!

Definitely African cichlids for the 125g tank. Malawi is well understood after my first run but I will ask about Tanganyikan and Victorians when the time is right and I know more about them as well.

Good to know about the two heaters - I will combine with a temp readout as well to watch out for failures.

I didnt understand your comment "dont worry about weight" with regards to stone based aquascaping. Could you please explain?

I noticed filtration mentioned by you enough times that maybe I reframe the question and ask about the most effective filtration system for a 125g African cichlid tank. Specifically kinds, count and capacities. I like the filtration article comment "the best filter is the one you maintain"! I would like to be on a 2 week schedule (or longer) of filter maintenance. The water change is much easier to handle for me and my wife if I am traveling for work.

Last question would be about people's experience with buying used items. Save a few bucks. What would be good items to buy?

Thank you again.


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## engotski

Congrats on the 125g! I'm running PFS in both my tanks. I tried plants and the only thing that survived was java fern but an all male tank takes enough to time on its own so I went with rock only decor. I grabbed my rocks from anywhere I can find them out in the fields...scrub with wire brush, poured boiling water on them and let it soak for a few mins and done.

I'm filtered with an FX5 and Eheim 1200XL, also got a 1300gph circulation pump. I do have 30 fish in my 135g (more than half are still juvie/young adult - probably will have to cut numbers). I run 1x 250W Eheim jager heater to maintain my temp at 78F...I keep the house around 70F during the winters.

Hope you find success this time around!


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## rookie-cichlid1978

Super dumb question (maybe).

is there an efficient, non back breaking way to clean a 180lb tank when new? My 25g tank cleaning was quite nerve wracking!!


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## rookie-cichlid1978

engotski said:


> Congrats on the 125g! I'm running PFS in both my tanks. I tried plants and the only thing that survived was java fern but an all male tank takes enough to time on its own so I went with rock only decor. I grabbed my rocks from anywhere I can find them out in the fields...scrub with wire brush, poured boiling water on them and let it soak for a few mins and done.
> 
> I'm filtered with an FX5 and Eheim 1200XL, also got a 1300gph circulation pump. I do have 30 fish in my 135g (more than half are still juvie/young adult - probably will have to cut numbers). I run 1x 250W Eheim jager heater to maintain my temp at 78F...I keep the house around 70F during the winters.
> 
> Hope you find success this time around!


Thank you engotski! 
Whats PFS?
I think I will need the beefy heaters (2x)! We keep our home between 62-67 throughtout the year and I do household chores so my wife doesnt kick me out  
How do you handle aggression with 30 fish? Is it because the probability of the same fish being harassed is small in such large numbers? Or juveniles are not fully grown out bullies yet?
If I read your note correctly, you are moving upwards of 2000gph with your Eheim and FX5. Am I going to be meeting min reqs with a 1000gph filter? And are they easy to add on over time with more fish?

Thanks a lot!


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## gillmanjr

rookie-cichlid1978 said:


> engotski said:
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats on the 125g! I'm running PFS in both my tanks. I tried plants and the only thing that survived was java fern but an all male tank takes enough to time on its own so I went with rock only decor. I grabbed my rocks from anywhere I can find them out in the fields...scrub with wire brush, poured boiling water on them and let it soak for a few mins and done.
> 
> I'm filtered with an FX5 and Eheim 1200XL, also got a 1300gph circulation pump. I do have 30 fish in my 135g (more than half are still juvie/young adult - probably will have to cut numbers). I run 1x 250W Eheim jager heater to maintain my temp at 78F...I keep the house around 70F during the winters.
> 
> Hope you find success this time around!
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you engotski!
> Whats PFS?
> I think I will need the beefy heaters (2x)! We keep our home between 62-67 throughtout the year and I do household chores so my wife doesnt kick me out
> How do you handle aggression with 30 fish? Is it because the probability of the same fish being harassed is small in such large numbers? Or juveniles are not fully grown out bullies yet?
> If I read your note correctly, you are moving upwards of 2000gph with your Eheim and FX5. Am I going to be meeting min reqs with a 1000gph filter? And are they easy to add on over time with more fish?
> 
> Thanks a lot!
Click to expand...

You keep your house at 62 degrees???? 

My wife would leave me if I kept the house that cold.

BTW you are going to need more heating capacity for the tank if your home gets that cold, 3W/gal as suggested won't be enough for 62 ambient temp. I have a 10 gallon holding tank in my garage that I keep at 60 degrees and I have a 50W heater in it that is barely enough to keep the tank at 76, AND I have that tank insulated with styrofoam on four sides which I would assume you aren't going to do for a display tank.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

gillmanjr said:


> rookie-cichlid1978 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> engotski said:
> 
> 
> 
> !
> 
> 
> 
> !
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You keep your house at 62 degrees????
> 
> My wife would leave me if I kept the house that cold.
> 
> BTW you are going to need more heating capacity for the tank if your home gets that cold, 3W/gal as suggested won't be enough for 62 ambient temp. I have a 10 gallon holding tank in my garage that I keep at 60 degrees and I have a 50W heater in it that is barely enough to keep the tank at 76, AND I have that tank insulated with styrofoam on four sides which I would assume you aren't going to do for a display tank.
Click to expand...

Living in Denver means we have seriously sunny days (300+ days) and low humidity that allows for lower temps than New England where we used to live. And I do A LOT of household chores to earn my keep in the household!   
The aquarium will be in a place of excellent natural light and for 6-7 months a year, the area gets sun as well. So temps run 65-68 naturally - we expect that the summer will send that upward. 
Maybe I will start with 3W/gal. and add on a heater. Insulation and styrofoam is not an option - this tank will be seen from the street if we keep our blinds up!


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## engotski

rookie-cichlid1978 said:


> Thank you engotski!
> Whats PFS?
> I think I will need the beefy heaters (2x)! We keep our home between 62-67 throughtout the year and I do household chores so my wife doesnt kick me out
> How do you handle aggression with 30 fish? Is it because the probability of the same fish being harassed is small in such large numbers? Or juveniles are not fully grown out bullies yet?
> If I read your note correctly, you are moving upwards of 2000gph with your Eheim and FX5. Am I going to be meeting min reqs with a 1000gph filter? And are they easy to add on over time with more fish?
> 
> Thanks a lot!


Pool Filter Sand...you hang around forums enough you pick up abbreviations like this lol. A 50ibs bag would suffice for your tank IMO...I prefer no more than 1" of sand but that's me, can always add more.

Rock work for these guys are not as elaborate like it would be for Mbunas. 









Population of fish in your tank is entirely up to you as long as you can keep their water quality where it should be. My tank is working well with the amount of fish I have and I've compensated with having the fx5 and eheim 1200xl as filters. I probably will see some kind of civil war in the near future but I'm not really worried...many of the fish I have now grew up together from being juvies. I havnt bought a single adult fish since I started this 135g, I've only added 3" or less whenever I find males I don't have on my local forum and fish stores. Overcrowding definitely helps with decreasing aggression but it is a harder tank to maintain. The population in my tank is always changing because I can never be satisfied. I'm getting there though so changes might actually slow down or stop soon lol.

Some probably will find me crazy but I have a theory that I started doing before introducing fish: 
Fish have olfactory nerves that function slightly different from us but it is still the ability to smell. Fish within the same tank have the same "smell" due to the additives in water and food you feed. Fish from other tanks, in theory, have a different scent due to the variables mentioned. Some owners use name brand buffers, I use baking soda (for example). Every time I introduce new fish to my tank, I keep them in breeder boxes that float in my tank for 2-3 days with the purpose of acclimation. The new fish would have circulated the same tank water in their system, ate at least one feeding, and bladder/bowel have moved to process the change. Their slime coat may also under go some kind of a change during this process as pH and hardness vary. Is it BS? maybe, or even probably but in my case, it has worked. Since probably November, I have introduced new fish 8x and had 6 successes, 2 failures (both failures are from the usual float add some of my own tank water, float for 20 mins, and then release). One fish didnt make it overnight, the other severely damaged (both 3" fish). I also noticed that once I release a new fish that been floating the breeder box for a few days, the current tank inhabitants barely follow the new guys around. Again, have not tried this for adult size fish because I don't buy adult size and breeder boxes are 6-7" in length. Other variables like species type, etc were not in mind. I've only tried this with Aulonocaras and smaller haps like placidochromis, mylochromis, and protomelas. It would be cool to see if this actually worked or not for others but call me crazy for now.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

Gorgeous tank, engotski!

Here is a link to a guilty pleasure about aquascaping that I read frequently and hope to bring some elements in - 
http://fish-etc.com/aquascaping-main/ho ... r-aquarium
http://fish-etc.com/aquascaping-main/se ... id-habitat

I assume you place 1 fish/breeder box? Any specific type/brand of breeder box? Would love to try some "out of the box" methods to help my future fish.


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## engotski

Thanks! *** had multiple changes in aquascape from fake plants, real plants, drift wood, lava rocks, store bought structures, etc...I'm most satisfied with natural rocks. I'm not an artist nor have a great creative mind in this sense so I hardscaped with the purpose of providing two elevations to break sight lines when a fish get chased. Also, I don't have the best pieces of rocks so aesthetically, could be better. I did try to keep the rule of thirds in mind but it's tough to find nice tall rocks...DJRansome's advise of going to your landscape supply store is probably a better suggestion...do it right the first time! Creating caves can be a double edged sword as it creates a reason for battle if there aren't enough for each fish to call as their own.

Yes, I do put one fish per box...
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Aquarium-Pet-Fis ... 9370eYNzrg
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Aquarium-Fish-Ta ... 1825249439

The mesh box version is great for larger fish, I have the 10" version. Floating plastic box is easier to manage though.


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## DJRansome

OK nothing again engotski's success, but for a balanced picture:

I like 18 individuals in an all-male 72" tank. I've tried more (not 30 though) and I felt it looked like one of those goldfish feeder tanks at PetSmart.

I also thought growing juvies together would result in less aggression as adults, but I have found it is not true and makes no difference.

I don't use breeder boxes for any reason except fry in maternity tank for first 7 days if I strip. I've added 100s of fish to my tanks with the float/release method and never a death except for fish that already were not looking good. Match your water parameters to the seller. Use quarantine if the parameters don't match and you need to acclimate.

8X GPH is totally workable.

If I were doing a new tank I would buy two Rena Filstar (now API) XP XL filters at $190 each.

You should not have to clean the filters more than every 3 months, but vacuum weekly.

I don't buy used except the tank itself. Or if I know the seller personally and the brand is good. Like I bought an Oceanic stand from a person in the local club once. And an Eheim filter from another Mod on this forum.


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## engotski

Told u guys im crazy lol. DJRansom's experience with cichlid keeping is 10 fold compared to mine so his opinions have more substance. I'm more "unproven new ideas" kinda guy.


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## DJRansome

And mine is 25% of some of the other experienced fishkeepers on this forum.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

Went to Petsmart to check out our purchase as I couldnt just wait! Still wrapped in all kinds of protective covering! Tomorrow is the lifting day. Also bagged a FX6 for $249 on eBay. That was some major savings if it pans out in terms of actually being new. This is turning to be a good start already.

Now if only my 25g could magically accelerate its biofilter cycling so that it can act as seeding for the big brother.....the 3ppm ammonia green is starting to burn into my retina!


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## engotski

I still suggest adding another supplementary filter like a filstar XP-L if you're doing african cichlids...or just add a circulation pump and keep your stocking levels low. Some have a magic number of inhabitants like DJRansome but I've seen 6ft tanks with 10 fish and up wards to more than 30. I don't feel like my tank is over crowded at all but that may change once the rest of my population reach adult size.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

engotski said:


> I still suggest adding another supplementary filter like a filstar XP-L if you're doing african cichlids...or just add a circulation pump and keep your stocking levels low. Some have a magic number of inhabitants like DJRansome but I've seen 6ft tanks with 10 fish and up wards to more than 30. I don't feel like my tank is over crowded at all but that may change once the rest of my population reach adult size.


Does the supplementary filtration act as backup or is it truly an add-on to the filtration capacity? If i add it after the tank is cycled but before the fish arrive, will that affect anything wrt the chemistry of the tank?


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## engotski

rookie-cichlid1978 said:


> Does the supplementary filtration act as backup or is it truly an add-on to the filtration capacity? If i add it after the tank is cycled but before the fish arrive, will that affect anything wrt the chemistry of the tank?


It would be an add on...it wouldnt matter when you add the 2nd filter, it just means the biomedia in the new filter isnt established yet. You can still add fish once the FX6 is ready, it can easily handle the bioload of a decent size population on its own. Watch how often you feed though once you add fish, test your parameters daily and may have to pull back on feeding if you get an ammonia/nitrite spike.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

Quick question - how much clearance is safe for the aquarium from the back wall (against one of the 72" sides?) Assume that I will have 1-2 canisters, heaters, lights etc.

Thanks for the help.....1 hour to deployment of new aquarium in its spot at home.


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## Cyphound

If you use a powerhead with a sponge on the intake it is filtration. And quite effective and very easy to clean since it is easily removable. There are sponges that are black made specifily for mj and similar powerheads. Use them in all my tanks.


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## DJRansome

I always allow 18" behind my aquariums...I like to be able to get behind.


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## Deeda

I leave enough room behind the tank and stand to be able to use a vacuum nozzle to clean out dust bunnies, however if you decide to use a power filter on the tank, you may need to leave 4" or more.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

Thank you. The aquarium has come home and quickly reminded me that I am no spring chicken when it comes to lifting stuff anymore!!

Question about leveling - the base is flat over the entire 72" but then we were provided plastic stubs to raise the base and also move without scratching. Not sure if this is a great idea because we just went from a solid 72" base to 8 point loads for the entire weight. Thoughts on this?

Leveling question - level at the base/floor zone or tank/base zone? Eventually we are looking at 1400 lbs when full with water according to Aqueon. Love to hear your experience.


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## engotski

I have about 6" behind both my tanks...comfortably get my arm behind and I find its enough space to move filter tubes, intakes/outakes, etc. It's an eye sore for me otherwise if it's too far out from the wall. Whatever suits your visual preference and meet your needs in maintaining the tank is my advice.


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## DJRansome

Of course a level floor helps, but level the base. I do use the levelers on the stand if provided.


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## Iggy Newcastle

I have a few FX models. They move a lot of water, but a poor place for fine sponges/polishing sponges. Definitely get an extra filter. An AC 110 would work. Or another canister, like an AquaTop(inexpensive) or one of the models already mentioned.

Those in-line heaters are great. 250 watts is all I need on my 125 gallon tanks. I keep one on the porch/laundry room. This room gets pretty cold in the winter. If outdoor temps drop to 10 degrees the porch gets to the low 50s. I have supplemental heat, but do not like cranking that for a tank. I'll use an extra tank heater in times of extreme cold. The heaters available aim to raise the temp about 15 degrees above ambient, so even if your house drops to 62 you'll be fine, IMO, with one appropriately rated heater. Doubling up heaters is commonplace, but I hear way too many stories about heater thermostats sticking closed and cooking their aquariums. I feed with my fingers in the tank, so it's quickly apparent to me if the temp is off.

And congrats on the new tank. Glad you found the forum and corrected your initial issues. You're gonna love it, I promise


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## rookie-cichlid1978

DJRansome said:


> Of course a level floor helps, but level the base. I do use the levelers on the stand if provided.


Thank you. These are not levelers - just plastic risers that prevent scratching of the floor. Working on my friend to come back to level the base. The aquarium did not look stable with shims under it.


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## Deeda

I'm a bit confused on your stand so please clarify whether the stand is meant to have 'plastic stubs' or if these are an after thought or suggestion by someone else.

Never shim the aquarium itself, only the stand if necessary!


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## rookie-cichlid1978

deeda1 said:


> I'm a bit confused on your stand so please clarify whether the stand is meant to have 'plastic stubs' or if these are an after thought or suggestion by someone else.
> 
> Never shim the aquarium itself, only the stand if necessary!


The risers came with the stand and go into pre drilled holes in the base. Understood on the aquarium vs stand leveling.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

Some additional questions please:
Have a Python for water changes but instead of throwing away precious water in dry Denver, I was hoping to use a submersible pump with a garden hose attachment that could move the water out quickly and repeatably with minimal mess. Any recommendations for brand, GPH etc for a 125-gallon tank??
Anyone have positive experience with CaribSea Eco-complete? Seems like it could help with pH balance over the long term and also provide a kickstart to the tank cycling.

Thank you!


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## DJRansome

I would not rely on Eco-Complete for buffering pH or cycling. It is expensive. Buy it only if you like the looks.

I have aragonite substrate in my tank for 10 years and pH has yet to increase. The pH, KH and GH are all exactly the same, tank to tank and tap regardless of whether the tank has aragonite. A water treatment professional (PhD) told me the minerals cannot dissolve fast enough to make a difference.

The more I hear about cycling short-cuts...the less I believe they work. If Eco-complete could cycle a tank (or even speed up the cycle much) you would hear all about it on this forum, constantly. I think if you don't rinse it (directions say not to) the tank can be cloudy as well.

Pool filter sand is the choice for me. 20 grain and pure silica.

I have also tried Flourite black sand. Never again.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

DJRansome said:


> I would not rely on Eco-Complete for buffering pH or cycling. It is expensive. Buy it only if you like the looks.
> 
> I have aragonite substrate in my tank for 10 years and pH has yet to increase. The pH, KH and GH are all exactly the same, tank to tank and tap regardless of whether the tank has aragonite. A water treatment professional (PhD) told me the minerals cannot dissolve fast enough to make a difference.
> 
> The more I hear about cycling short-cuts...the less I believe they work. If Eco-complete could cycle a tank (or even speed up the cycle much) you would hear all about it on this forum, constantly. I think if you don't rinse it (directions say not to) the tank can be cloudy as well.
> 
> Pool filter sand is the choice for me. 20 grain and pure silica.
> 
> I have also tried Flourite black sand. Never again.


Good to know!

For load balancing from rock scapes, I see egg crate and Styrofoam as good base options to place the rocks on. One seems like it could breakdown in the water (cause load shift) and the other will survive the planet's end (or cause it). 
Would love to hear any thoughts on this as well.

Tank is level, cleaned and ready to receive some rockscapes and substrate while we wait for rhe canister filters.


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## Iggy Newcastle

The submersible pump I use for water changes is 1/10th HP. I forget the GPM, but it's fast. I use it on everything from 40 to 180 gallons. I tried 1/6 HP, but the pump 'jumps' on start up and hits the glass sides. I bought mine from Ace hardware.

+1 on pool filter sand. I use play sand in 1 tank, as well.

Place your rock directly on the glass bottom. Then sand around it. The tank can hold and support more rock than you can physically put in there.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

Iggy Newcastle said:


> The submersible pump I use for water changes is 1/10th HP. I forget the GPM, but it's fast. I use it on everything from 40 to 180 gallons. I tried 1/6 HP, but the pump 'jumps' on start up and hits the glass sides. I bought mine from Ace hardware.
> 
> +1 on pool filter sand. I use play sand in 1 tank, as well.
> 
> Place your rock directly on the glass bottom. Then sand around it. The tank can hold and support more rock than you can physically put in there.


Ace hardware is the friendly neighborhood aquarist's supplier, I think! Got both the PFS and the pump per your rec for pickup later today! 

Good to know about not needing a substrate for placing the rock on - appreciate the timely help before I went tearing up old packaging styrofoam!


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## Iggy Newcastle

Nice! I think you'll love that pump. Very quick. I've never put a nozzle or sprinkler at the end of it, though.

I've had over 400 lbs (Maybe 500) in a 125 before. Just be careful stacking, if you do so. If it's at all unstable, try a different configuration. Round, smooth type stone and boulders make for poor stacking options.

Good luck!


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## rookie-cichlid1978

DJRansome said:


> I would not rely on Eco-Complete for buffering pH or cycling. It is expensive. Buy it only if you like the looks.
> 
> I have aragonite substrate in my tank for 10 years and pH has yet to increase. The pH, KH and GH are all exactly the same, tank to tank and tap regardless of whether the tank has aragonite. A water treatment professional (PhD) told me the minerals cannot dissolve fast enough to make a difference.
> 
> The more I hear about cycling short-cuts...the less I believe they work. If Eco-complete could cycle a tank (or even speed up the cycle much) you would hear all about it on this forum, constantly. I think if you don't rinse it (directions say not to) the tank can be cloudy as well.
> 
> Pool filter sand is the choice for me. 20 grain and pure silica.
> 
> I have also tried Flourite black sand. Never again.


Hello DJRansome - any recommended source/mfg for the aragonite? CaribSea sells a product but wanted to confirm before buying it. I also have some Tufa and Texas Holey rocks in the aquascape. Denver water is inherently hard and has a high pH. Would you still recommend a buffering substrate? I assume that over time, the water changes will leach out the "pH raising minerals" but again, just confirming.

The Fluval just arrived and the PFS is cleaned up and getting to room temp next to the aquarium! Also cycling the 25-gallon (on day 11 now) so that I can bring some friendly bacteria over as soon as it completes cycling.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Nice! I think you'll love that pump. Very quick. I've never put a nozzle or sprinkler at the end of it, though.
> 
> I've had over 400 lbs (Maybe 500) in a 125 before. Just be careful stacking, if you do so. If it's at all unstable, try a different configuration. Round, smooth type stone and boulders make for poor stacking options.
> 
> Good luck!


Pump is awesome! Did a thorough cleaning and tested the Python as a fill source. Then used the pump to drive water outside to clean the PFS - feeling very adult and eco-friendly today. Thanks for the pump recommendation!


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## engotski

What's the pH of your tap water? Not having to add a pH buffer to your water would be nice. I have a large media bag of crushed coral in my fx5 to maintain my pH at 8.2, in addition to backing soda during water changes.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

engotski said:


> What's the pH of your tap water? Not having to add a pH buffer to your water would be nice. I have a large media bag of crushed coral in my fx5 to maintain my pH at 8.2, in addition to backing soda during water changes.


I have an API Freshwater Master Kit.

*Tap Water:*
Regular pH tester shows "high" 7.6/7.7
High pH tester shows 8.0

*25g aquarium* 
Regular pH tester shows "high" 7.6/7.7
High pH tester shows 8.2

*125gallon* remains dry for now :wink:

Also have an API 5-in-1 Test Strips (pH, NO2, NO3, KH, GH)
*Aquarium & Tap*
GH = 180
KH = ~120

Any insights on these results? Always learning here 

African cichlids came on the horizon because of the high hardness/high pH tap water. Keeping fish in neutral pH water would have required chemical corrections and checks.


----------



## DJRansome

No on the aragonite. As mentioned, I have it, it was expensive, and no impact.

What is your KH test result in # of drops? I assume it is 7 or higher so you are already buffered.

Same with holey rock. In addition, I prefer a smooth rock rather than holey rock or tufa to minimize injuries when fish bump into the rocks.

Use the high range pH test bottles.


----------



## rookie-cichlid1978

DJRansome said:


> No on the aragonite. As mentioned, I have it, it was expensive, and no impact.
> 
> What is your KH test result in # of drops? I assume it is 7 or higher so you are already buffered.
> 
> Same with holey rock. In addition, I prefer a smooth rock rather than holey rock or tufa to minimize injuries when fish bump into the rocks.
> 
> Use the high range pH test bottles.


Hmmm ok I dont have a drop count because all I have is the strips for testing GH & KH. Is there a better/more accurate test that I should get? I have been using the high range pH exclusively.


----------



## rookie-cichlid1978

Some more questions in terms of procurement for readiness:

Powerhead with sponge at the end - will this be enough to act as the second filter as opposed to a 2nd canister? I have one FX6 so far.

Temp measurement and high temp alarm/shutoff: any recommendations? I see cheap stick on exterior temp displays at LFS locations. I have an inline Hydor on order - if it fails and overheats, I wanted to see if there could be a closed loop alarm/shutoff.

Cichlid food - are there good generic types for the Rift Lake cichlids? Or should I focus on stocking the tank first and then buy food based on the chosen species?

Tank lighting - it came with fluorescent lights (2x). Do I need to replace them soon? Was hoping to keep them for a bit before going out to spend more on LED and specialty lights.


----------



## DJRansome

Powerhead...what is the total GPH?

Temp, I like the cheap plastic thermometers with magnets to attach. I don't have alarms or shut offs and don't consider the risk worth any concern.

Food, one good quality staple should work. Check out product reviews or Nutrition (Health and Illness) forum, lots of good recent discussions.

Lighting, as long as the bulbs are new no need to replace the fixtures. Bulbs more than one year old can cause algae.

API Master Freshwater Test Kit and buy the API KH/GH test kit sold separately with test tubes. 120ppm should be close to 7 drops if I'm doing the conversion correctly.


----------



## rookie-cichlid1978

Cyphound said:


> If you use a powerhead with a sponge on the intake it is filtration. And quite effective and very easy to clean since it is easily removable. There are sponges that are black made specifily for mj and similar powerheads. Use them in all my tanks.


I couldn't find a powerhead that comes close to 8x tank volume or 1000gph. Please help with make/model for an appropriate powerhead. Thank you!


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## rookie-cichlid1978

Day 1 of the new tank with some fresh water and an operational FX6! 
Here are my tank water parameters:
pH = 7.4; Ammonia = 0.5ppm; NItrites = 0; Nitrates = 0; GH = 8 drops; KH = 6/7 drops

*To start off the fishless cycling:*
Add Prime for dechlor (done)
Raise water temp to 78-80 F
Add ammonia to reach 2ppm (hold and measure from this point on)
Add Lake Cichlid Salt (Seachem) to raise the GH/KH to at least 11
Add "live bacteria" just because I have a left over bottle from my first tank My 25g hasnt finished cycling so I dont have any established filter media to add to my new tank.
Should I fix the pH to a higher number or can I wait for this step?

Could use some help to confirm if I am starting off correctly. I have not decided on actual fish species beyond deciding that they will be Rift Lake Cichlids.
Thank you.


----------



## Iggy Newcastle

I'd skip the powerhead and add an additional filter. If you feel you need more flow later, grab a circulation pump.

So what's up with your pH? The readings from the 2 tanks and tap are different.


----------



## rookie-cichlid1978

Iggy Newcastle said:


> I'd skip the powerhead and add an additional filter. If you feel you need more flow later, grab a circulation pump.
> 
> So what's up with your pH? The readings from the 2 tanks and tap are different.


Using teh API GH/KH Liquid drop tester for the first time. Ran a source water test and had my wife swing by for a second color feedback. Also looking at the liquid straight down without the cap on a white background.
Tap Water: pH = 8/8.2; KH=5drops; GH=8/9 drops.

Any thoughts?

I now have a real estate problem with the FX6 just swallowing all my cabinet space!!  Need to figure out a smaller footprint filter that I can still place in the cabinet. Or push the FX6 back closer to the wall and place a piece of wood underneath one of its support legs while keeping it level. I am considering Filstar XP-L, Aquatop CF500UV or a Penn-Plax Cascade. The FX4 or another FX6 are no longer options.


----------



## engotski

I'd go with XP-L or XL if you can.


----------



## Iggy Newcastle

Earlier you said your pH in the 125 was 7.4. Is this a typo?

You will have 1 canister at each end of the tank. You should have plenty of room.


----------



## rookie-cichlid1978

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Earlier you said your pH in the 125 was 7.4. Is this a typo?
> 
> You will have 1 canister at each end of the tank. You should have plenty of room.


Yes the tank pH is also either 8 or 8.2. The stand for the aquarium is built for looks and has a closed back on the ends with an open middle (also with a door). Leaves me with no option other than to place the new filter outside the cabinet or squeeze out a couple of inches by moving the FX6 around.

The circulation pump purchase is on hold pending completion of all filter setups. 
Any need to adjust the hardness and if so should I look into it now?


----------



## Iggy Newcastle

So your pH drops from 8 to 7.4?

Understood on the stand. An AC 110 HOB may be the better option then.


----------



## rookie-cichlid1978

Iggy Newcastle said:


> So your pH drops from 8 to 7.4?
> 
> Understood on the stand. An AC 110 HOB may be the better option then.


Thank you. This is a living room show tank and the FX6 is almost too quiet!! My HOB in the office on the 25g is almost a banshee by comparison  
I went ahead and ordered 4 different canister filters today to see if I can wiggle one of them in. I wont be using them beyond positioning them and checking the hose (5/8" will make my Hydor in-line install easier). For now I have two 300W Aquatop glass heaters and a temp probe in the water.

This morning I rechecked all my tap and tank parameters and added the "bottled bacteria" and also got some more sponge media water and gravel from the LFS (not the same as actual sponge media) to start the cycling process. Also added 1/2 dose (3 tsp) of Seachem Lake Cichlid salts and topped off the aquarium water after dechlor with Prime. My tank has one large tufa rock and 1 small Texas holey rock. The others are various sandstones and petrified rocks.

the plan is to keep a few plants in the tank and started with Jungle Vals today with Anubias and Jave ferns to be added on this week.

pH (tap & tank) = 8.0
Ammonia (tap) = 0.25; Ammonia (tank) = 1-2ppm (added ammonia late last night)
Nitrites/Nitrates (tap & tank) = 0.0
KH (tap) = 5 drops; KH (tank) = 6-7 drops
GH (tap & tank) = 8-9 drops


----------



## bossanova9

Your hard work will pay off! Have you decided what species are going in there yet?


----------



## rookie-cichlid1978

bossanova9 said:


> Your hard work will pay off! Have you decided what species are going in there yet?


Man, I am just trying to kill ammonia and nitrites for now (in two tanks, no less!!!) 

DJRansome had made some suggestions a few weeks back but I havent spent any time researching that aspect yet. Figure, I will get into steady state with the daily to-dos of tank setup/cycling and do some research in the next 2 weeks. My wife is now getting into it as well which is great for a second set of eyes!


----------



## rookie-cichlid1978

Labor of love and testing/wiggling this week. Had ordered 4 filters to see which ones would satisfy the criteria for painless ETH-300 installation and small footprint to be placed with the FX6. Eliminated the Aquatop and the Hydor Pro for poor hose sizing. Have the Filstar XP-L and the Cascade 1500.

Filstars are strongly recommended but bit more noisy (very important as this is a living/TV room show tank). I received 5 bio media "stars" with the package. Not sure what that would even accomplish. *No spray bar - should I consider this important?* *Is it good at preventing bypass?*

Cascade 1500 is decently rated but I read that there was a concern with priming, bypass and tray size. *Anyone have thoughts on this? Are they all valid comments?*

There is a financial element to this setup because i am moving 925gph with the FX6 and both new filters have 350gph rating but Cascade saves me $60 that goes towards what seems like some more stuff to buy.

Recommendation please from the experts??


----------



## Iggy Newcastle

The FX6 pump is rated at 925. The filter at 605, I believe. That's completely empty and not accounting for head pressure. Once the plumbing is ran, and canister packed with media and sponges, expect more around 500.

I have not used either of your final 2 considerations. Since noise is a big concern, go with the quietest model. A spray bar is not necessary.

Having huge trays on your secondary filter, when you already have an FX as a primary, is not a big deal. Fill the secondary with some media and use the stock sponges. Anything can be used as media, really. Not sure what bio stars are. Cheap options are plastic pot scrubbies or even little green army men. There are media like Seachem Matrix or the Eheim equivalent that have a vastly superior surface area. I always use whatever comes with the filter and/or Pond Matrix. I only use the matrix as I can buy it in bulk.

As far as priming goes on filters that require manual priming, I usually fill the canister with water to the very top before closing it back up. This is on an AquaTop and Fluval 306. The Fluval says not to do this but it works for me. I always get some air initially, but they quiet down and run darn near silent minutes later.

Hope this helps


----------



## rookie-cichlid1978

Iggy Newcastle said:


> The FX6 pump is rated at 925. The filter at 605, I believe. That's completely empty and not accounting for head pressure. Once the plumbing is ran, and canister packed with media and sponges, expect more around 500.
> 
> I have not used either of your final 2 considerations. Since noise is a big concern, go with the quietest model. A spray bar is not necessary.
> 
> Having huge trays on your secondary filter, when you already have an FX as a primary, is not a big deal. Fill the secondary with some media and use the stock sponges. Anything can be used as media, really. Not sure what bio stars are. Cheap options are plastic pot scrubbies or even little green army men. There are media like Seachem Matrix or the Eheim equivalent that have a vastly superior surface area. I always use whatever comes with the filter and/or Pond Matrix. I only use the matrix as I can buy it in bulk.
> 
> As far as priming goes on filters that require manual priming, I usually fill the canister with water to the very top before closing it back up. This is on an AquaTop and Fluval 306. The Fluval says not to do this but it works for me. I always get some air initially, but they quiet down and run darn near silent minutes later.
> 
> Hope this helps


Super helpful thank you. Also good to know about drops in circulating capacity with different changes like adding media etc. I am going to try with a small bucket and no media to test for noise levels and see where it takes me


----------



## rookie-cichlid1978

Filstar XP-L is in place now. Need to get the metal clamps for the connections. Developed a small leak on the out connection. Plastic non-adjustable clamps are not a good idea and kinda annoying that they are included in the package. Used the Seachem Matrix as the bio media pack and added one more fine filter pad (30 ppi). Used all the rest of the package contents.

I have some fine surface particulates even after a week of the FX6. I was hoping to clear it up with the Filstar working in tandem before adding any water conditioners. Is this the correct way or should I add the conditioner with both filters running.

6 days into fishless cycling so hopefully these corrections can do the job before the tank is ready for fish. As always appreciate any tips/advice.


----------



## bossanova9

Those clamps have worked for me, I've tightened them with pliers which give me a couple of extra clicks. Been in place for years


----------



## rookie-cichlid1978

hello again,
My ammonia dropped to zero this morning! Much better start to the fishless cycling this time around. Had to return the Filstar - developed a hairline crack in the output tube. Now running the Cascade with their provided filter pads, a 30ppi pad and Seachem Matrix in two trays.

I have some fine surface particulates even after a week of the FX6. I was hoping to clear it up with the Filstar working in tandem before adding any water conditioners. Is this the correct way or should I add the conditioner with both filters running?


----------



## Iggy Newcastle

What is the conditioner?


----------



## rookie-cichlid1978

Iggy Newcastle said:


> What is the conditioner?


 I have a couple of bottles that came with the aquarium purchase. Top Fin and an Aqueon Water Conditioner. The Aqueon says aluminum chlorohydrate and polyelectrolytes are the main ingredients. Not sure about the Top Fin.


----------



## Iggy Newcastle

I wouldn't use anything that I didn't know what they were. If you have chlorine or chloramine in your water source you'll need a dechlorinator. Seachem Prime works great, and will treat more water than it's competitors.


----------



## rookie-cichlid1978

Iggy Newcastle said:


> I wouldn't use anything that I didn't know what they were. If you have chlorine or chloramine in your water source you'll need a dechlorinator. Seachem Prime works great, and will treat more water than it's competitors.


I have been using Seachem Prime from day 1 of this hobby for water treatement. The two bottles are for "clarifying" the water in terms of particulates that bind and are picked up easily by the intakes. They dont dechlorinate water.
The reason for this question was basically due to the fact that I have been running the FX6 for alomost 10 days and added the Cascade 1500 two days back. I assumed that this amount of time will allow water to have cycled enough times to get rid of floating particulates. My assumption on time could be wrong (I can certainly sit tight) OR my particulates are more pesky and could some "help to bind" and get picked up in the regular flow of the filters.

Thank you!!


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## Iggy Newcastle

Are you agitating the surface enough? Any flat, dead areas?

I would throw those conditioners out. That's a product you don't need.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Are you agitating the surface enough? Any flat, dead areas?
> 
> I would throw those conditioners out. That's a product you don't need.


Lol, goes to show that there are no free things! 
I have a spray bar with the Cascade 1500 and a regular two nozzle output tube on the FX6. Both are fairly high in the tank and i am pointing them in a way that no area is water movement free. I can tell its working well because of the same pesky particulates ....


----------



## DJRansome

But what ARE the particulates? If the substrate is clean and you have no plants, the only debris introduced into the tank should be feces. And those should be recognizeable and either swept into the filter or vacuumed weekly.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

DJRansome said:


> But what ARE the particulates? If the substrate is clean and you have no plants, the only debris introduced into the tank should be feces. And those should be recognizeable and either swept into the filter or vacuumed weekly.


DJR - The substrate is PFS and 1 bag of Eco Complete (bought the bag before I saw your commentary). There are 4 small Jungle Vals in there and rocks. Thats it. There might have been a bit of dust that fell in on the first day as I was finishing up a door install and realized that the top was open. So these are all the sources of potential debris. The substrates were washed before adding to the tank. Thank you.


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## DJRansome

Any dust should have been removed by the filter hours after it fell in the tank. It's still mysterious to me.

Sometimes you think you washed the substrate well, but not quite well enough.


----------



## rookie-cichlid1978

DJRansome said:


> Any dust should have been removed by the filter hours after it fell in the tank. It's still mysterious to me.
> 
> Sometimes you think you washed the substrate well, but not quite well enough.


I couldnt say for sure. Hopefully did a decent job because the water column looks clean. Should I wait longer or should I look at chemical/mechanical intervention to clean up the surface?


----------



## DJRansome

Wait, I thought you said you had particulates? Then how can the water column look clean?


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## rookie-cichlid1978

DJRansome said:


> Wait, I thought you said you had particulates? Then how can the water column look clean?


All floaters are at the top - there is nothing in the mid level or lower. From the side the tank looks nice. Open the glass top and you see the particulates. they just move around without sinking.


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## Iggy Newcastle

Are you sure they're not micro bubbles? I know it sounds stupid, but I figured I'd ask.


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## DJRansome

Can you collect them with a net? If the particles are not in the water column or on the bottom filtration or vacuuming is not likely to help.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Are you sure they're not micro bubbles? I know it sounds stupid, but I figured I'd ask.


Thats what i thought they were for 5 days....  ..but then intent staring led to seeing shapes and figuring out that these were particulates.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

DJRansome said:


> Can you collect them with a net? If the particles are not in the water column or on the bottom filtration or vacuuming is not likely to help.


I was going to try to hold a new filter pad on the surface and start by turning off the filters and then running them one at a time so that the mixing is reduced or more controlled. I did try the fish net this evening but cant say I made a dent.


----------



## Iggy Newcastle

You gotta take a photo


----------



## rookie-cichlid1978

Iggy Newcastle said:


> You gotta take a photo


I had some success with a floating filter pad last night. I cant seem to take a decent pic with the movement. bit frustrating


----------



## rookie-cichlid1978

125g completed a conversion of Nitrites - so gald! It seems to be going a lot faster (13 days to zero nitrites) than my slow-poke 25g (25 days to zero nitrites). Now to dose and see if we can convert within 24hrs and stay at 0 for Amm/Nitrites.

One more question for the experts about methods - I read that you should add the Seachem Prime to the stream of new water as its added to the tank. I am using a Python for filling the tank and my flow rate is low due to various (irrelevant) reasons. For now I dont have any fish so the Prime goes in about 2-3 min after starting the fill. In the future with fish in the tank, the chlorine/chloramine might kill the fish if I take that long (or am I paranoid)

So my questions are:
- How should Prime be dosed in a new fill with a Python? (all at once, beginning, end etc.)
- If the Prime dosage is correct for a full tank, does the agent stay "active" and neutralize new chlorine/chloramine as it comes into the tank or do I need to add more in a slow fill situation? I am just trying to understand the science of neutralizing.
- In a fill to replace evaporation losses, I have been dosing only to the replacement amount and maybe a bit more. Is that safe and correct? Or is it better to overdose the Prime?

Thank you!


----------



## DJRansome

Dose all the prime at once at the beginning of your refill.

With weekly water changes and a covered tank you should not have to top off the tank during the week...which can cause problems. Better to resist.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

DJRansome said:


> Dose all the prime at once at the beginning of your refill.
> 
> With weekly water changes and a covered tank you should not have to top off the tank during the week...which can cause problems. Better to resist.


Thanks, DJR. Are the top off problems (you mention) related to changes in water chemistry parameters like pH/hardness/nutrients etc? I have a well sealed tank now and I can see that evaporation is quite minimal. SO the question is more for knowledge and information.


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## DJRansome

When you add water without removing water, you change (increase) the TDS and change osmotic pressure for the fish. This can kill them if it is too dramatic of a change.

So...better to change water than add water...always.


----------



## rookie-cichlid1978

I wanted to get back here as it looks like my big tank (72x24x24) could be cycled in a week or so. All signs are looking promising. I would like to prepare for two main items and could use some guidance.
1) After adding fish (I plan to go to full stock on day 1) to the cycled tank, what are the most critical activities in the first week and the first month? Due to my work travel, I have to plan ahead and also train the missus on some of the work (fortunately she is a capable partner in crime!)
2) All-male versus co-ed tanks. I am not sure if I have room/time/experience to care for the fry. If I stock some syno cats, would that cull some of the population of fry in a co-ed tank? I am almost not looking forward to this part because of potential mayhem in the tank and losing favor with the missus as well....

Based on some insights here, I will post my species questions based on my research and DJRansome's recs in another thread. Thank you!!


----------



## DJRansome

I would do no additives to the tank.

Mixed gender is easier than all-male. The adults and/or Synodontis will eat the fry. Mayhem tends to be worse and last longer in all-male tanks...it can take 2 years to get the mix right and you need extra tanks.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

DJRansome said:


> I would do no additives to the tank.
> 
> Mixed gender is easier than all-male. The adults and/or Synodontis will eat the fry. Mayhem tends to be worse and last longer in all-male tanks...it can take 2 years to get the mix right and you need extra tanks.


2 years of mayhem with extra tanks? Well that sorta sealed the deal. Co-ed tank it is!!

My wife and I looked through a Lake Malawi Cichlids book and then further researched the species here and came up with a list (its long and has a couple of crazy sizes). I would like to add synos and maybe an algae eating fish if such is compatible. Basically went with mostly "mildly aggressive" malawi cichlids - both Mbuna and Haps. This is a planted tank as well with anubias and jave ferns (all good sized plants).

The list is much longer than what we can keep/maintain but would like to go for some different colors, bars, color changes with spawning and maturity etc.

Synodontis = how many? gender?
Algae eater like bristlenose Pleco possible? Or should I avoid the headache?

Mbuna group (I have some rock work but its not elaborate and I dont plan on adding more rocks):

Lapidochromis caeruleus (yellow lab) 3"
Iodotropheus sprengerae (rusty cichlid) 3"
Any melanochromis species?
Metriaclima crabro (bumble bee) 4"
Metriaclima estherae (red zebra) 4"
Pseudotropheus saulosi 3"
Pseudotropheus acei 4"

Haplochromis group:

Aulonocara baenschi (Benga gold) 4"
Sciaenochromis fryeri (electric blue) 6"
Chilotilapia rhoadesii 12"
Copadichromis borleyi (Red Fin Kadango) 6"
Crytochara moorii (Blue dolphin) 8"
Otopharynx lithobates 6"
Placidochromis electra (deep water Haps) 6"
Protomelas taeniolatus (Red empress) 5"

Thank you!!


----------



## DJRansome

Think in terms of 5-6 species and groups of 1m:4f of each if they mature <= 6". Less if some/all of your groups are bigger than that. Your sizes are off...borleyi can easily get to be 8".

Which is your favorite? Acei and labs are OK with haps and peacocks, but not the others.

Skip fryeri in mixed gender because they cross with peacocks. Choose either empress or borleyi as they are look alikes. Lithobates is timid.

Check out the hap females to be sure they look nothing alike. Borleyi females are solid gray...electra females are barred...that kind of variation is good to avoid cross breeding.


----------



## rookie-cichlid1978

DJRansome said:


> Think in terms of 5-6 species and groups of 1m:4f of each if they mature <= 6". Less if some/all of your groups are bigger than that. Your sizes are off...borleyi can easily get to be 8".
> 
> Which is your favorite? Acei and labs are OK with haps and peacocks, but not the others.
> 
> Skip fryeri in mixed gender because they cross with peacocks. Choose either empress or borleyi as they are look alikes. Lithobates is timid.
> 
> Check out the hap females to be sure they look nothing alike. Borleyi females are solid gray...electra females are barred...that kind of variation is good to avoid cross breeding.


Thanks, DJR!

Mbuna group: Labs, P. acei are ok. We also like M. crabro, M. zebra and M. auratus for their unique color/banding. I guess in a mixed Malawi tank we are restricted to the acei and labs

Haplochromis group: A. baenschi and P. electra are in. Can a C. moorii (liked the unique head) or C. rhodesii do well in our tank? And if not, then for a rookie, would you pick borleyi or red empress?

Synos and Plecos: should we look for a similar 1m:4f ratio?

If two out of C. moorii/C. borleyi/C. rhodesii make the cut as acceptable community tank fish, we would have the Labs OR A. baenschi and Electra to make 4 cichlids species and tack on the synodontis. Please weigh in with your thoughts and I will research the females as well now that we are talking co-ed tanks.

Are there reputable US based online cichlid breeders/sellers? I know the credit at my LFS will run out long before I am stocked. I am also not sure if I am picking super expensive exotics which could impact species selection as well.


----------



## Iggy Newcastle

Crabo, Auratus and Estherae(red zebra) can all be housed in a 125. But then you're eliminating any Haps or Aulonocara, as you have noted. They're just too aggressive, especially with Crabo and Auratus.

From your list some combos that should work-

Borleyi, Yellow Labs, Acei, P. Electra, Aulonocara Sturtgranti or Jacobfreibergi type*
Borleyi, Moorii, P. Electra, Y. Labs
O. Lithobates, Y. Labs, Acei, P. Electra, Aulonocara Sturtgranti type*

* I'd choose a non yellow Aulonocara with yellow labs. The insane yellow glow from the labs will trump the male Aulonocara

Rhoadesii have the potential of growing very large, so I'd skip them, but I have no personal experience with any Chilotilapia. Empress can be subbed for the Borleyi in the above cases except for the 3rd option as the Lithobates females are similar to the Empress females in shape and pattern.

Best to inquire in the Lake Malawi section for more input :thumb:


----------



## DJRansome

Iggy you did fine. Two bristlenose, any gender. No particular gender mix on the synodontis. Check out the retailer section for feedback or PM a member for a recommendation.


----------



## rookie-cichlid1978

I also did a KH (4 drops) and GH (12 drops) test today. If I understand correctly, I have a carbonate hardness <75mg/L and GH of 204 mg/L. Did I interpret the results correctly? Any cause for concern or need to monitor more frequently?
My tap water tested 4 drops and 9 drops for KH/GH respectively.


----------



## DJRansome

4 drops is on the low side. Is your pH stable?


----------



## rookie-cichlid1978

DJRansome said:


> 4 drops is on the low side. Is your pH stable?


Its matching the tap water from day 1. ~7.6-7.8. I would not have expected this drop because I also have the tufa and holey rocks. Should I look into some buffering with baking soda or Seachem Cichlid Salts (have both at home)?

April 17th tank data (brand new setup)
pH (tap & tank) = 8.0
Ammonia (tap) = 0.25; Ammonia (tank) = 1-2ppm (added ammonia late last night)
Nitrites/Nitrates (tap & tank) = 0.0
KH (tap) = 5 drops; KH (tank) = 6-7 drops
GH (tap & tank) = 8-9 drops

So I think I am not stable on pH because my KH went down (from 7 to 4), my pH went down (from 8 to 7.4/7.6) and my GH went up (from 8-9 to 12)???? :-?

Going to try another full test in the AM. Today was a tank cleaning and 50%WC to bring nitrates under 10ppm. Not enough plants to make this stable like my 25g.


----------



## DJRansome

Keeping the pH stable is the main advantage of having KH=7 or so.

I would first try crushed coral in the filters.

If that does not increase your KH a little, making your pH stable, then I would consider baking soda as an additive with water changes.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

DJRansome said:


> Keeping the pH stable is the main advantage of having KH=7 or so.
> 
> I would first try crushed coral in the filters.
> 
> If that does not increase your KH a little, making your pH stable, then I would consider baking soda as an additive with water changes.


That was a new lesson for me! I didnt know that crushed coral could be added to the filters. I plan to do a maintenance on the filters next week to make sure the pads are clean and clear before the fish get home. this way all the potential **** from teh PFS and Ecocomplete has been rinsed out. Should I add the coral to the biomedia tray? I know for sure that I have room there.

Do you have any insight on the GH jumping to 12 drops? And is the multiplier of 17.8 same for both KH and GH?

Thank you.


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## DJRansome

You don't want to clean the filters so soon after a cycle. I'd wait 3 months. You also may not want to remove any media in order to add crushed coral. When ready it can be added to any tray between the sponges and the fine filter pad.

Maybe try adding it free-floating in the tank in a media bag right in front of the filter intake? You need a fair amount.

For me it does not help, but my KH=7 so maybe it will help for you with a lower KH.

No idea why GH should change unless you added something other than dechlorinator.

I don't use the multipliers...but this info should be in your kit. I count the drops.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

DJRansome said:


> You don't want to clean the filters so soon after a cycle. I'd wait 3 months. You also may not want to remove any media in order to add crushed coral. When ready it can be added to any tray between the sponges and the fine filter pad.
> 
> Maybe try adding it free-floating in the tank in a media bag right in front of the filter intake? You need a fair amount.
> 
> For me it does not help, but my KH=7 so maybe it will help for you with a lower KH.
> 
> No idea why GH should change unless you added something other than dechlorinator.
> 
> I don't use the multipliers...but this info should be in your kit. I count the drops.


Ok thanks. Can I just spread the coral on the substrate? Is baking soda faster acting than the coral. Based on the articles here, it seems like it is not toxic and works well and could be easier? On day 1, I had added a teaspoon of cichlid salts but since have done 3 water changes so not sure if there any mineral concentration left in there.
Good to know about the filter clean up. I will leave it untouched!!


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## DJRansome

You would never be able to remove the crushed coral from the substrate, and it does not make a desirable substrate.

Baking soda is immediate, but then you have to match every week for water changes...this is where it's hard to be stable.

If the GH changed when you added the cichlid salts, there is your answer.

Maybe baking soda/cichlid salts (same thing in effect) until you can swap some media in 3 months.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

DJRansome said:


> You would never be able to remove the crushed coral from the substrate, and it does not make a desirable substrate.
> 
> Baking soda is immediate, but then you have to match every week for water changes...this is where it's hard to be stable.
> 
> If the GH changed when you added the cichlid salts, there is your answer.
> 
> Maybe baking soda/cichlid salts (same thing in effect) until you can swap some media in 3 months.


Thats great to know! How much crushed coral would be needed in your opinion for a 125g? I have two filters so i think it should be enough to hold a good amount of coral. If they share space or are in touch with the bio media, will that cause issues to the beneficial bacteria?

I might follow the Seachem cichlid salts/buffer recipe (from this site) for the time being and put the coral in my filters. And for my chemistry experiment with salts, what should my goal be for GH and KH reading in drops? I may have to do the same for my tropical tank - the KH is at 4 but because there were no cichlid salts added, the GH is unchanged at 8. the potential for unstable pH is bad for either tank.


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## DJRansome

Don't try to change GH. I would not put all the stuff in listed in CF recipe because that will change GH. You just want KH to change so it can buffer pH. Experiment in a bucket with a measured amount of water and baking soda. Add, test, add, test until you get what you want. Then extrapolate for 125 gallons.

Your tropicals may prefer a lower pH. You should probably research...maybe a different additive like some leaves would be a better solution.

After 3 months I would swap an entire tray of biomedia for crushed coral. The reason you want to wait is because you will be removing beneficial bacteria. The beneficial bacteria will grow on the crushed coral and it will become your new biomedia for that tray.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

DJRansome said:


> Don't try to change GH. I would not put all the stuff in listed in CF recipe because that will change GH. You just want KH to change so it can buffer pH. Experiment in a bucket with a measured amount of water and baking soda. Add, test, add, test until you get what you want. Then extrapolate for 125 gallons.
> 
> Your tropicals may prefer a lower pH. You should probably research...maybe a different additive like some leaves would be a better solution.
> 
> After 3 months I would swap an entire tray of biomedia for crushed coral. The reason you want to wait is because you will be removing beneficial bacteria. The beneficial bacteria will grow on the crushed coral and it will become your new biomedia for that tray.


Thanks, DJR. I will work on the KH enhancement first and then monitor KH/GH/pH to see if they hold up well. Still 10+ days to go before fish arrive. My tropical tank has driftwood as well so the KH has to be low because of that. Fish are quite exuberant in there so I will just monitor for now.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

I did a 24hr pH test with tank water last night. Tested the water immediately and left the other vial open for 24 hours and tested tonight. Used the high range pH tester from API.
I dont think the pH was affected based on the picture. I am curious as to what you see for a reading as well. Thanks.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

Quick question - how long does or can a tank stay cycled without fish after its cycled for the first time? Any way to extend the timeline (maybe by dosing ammonia)? Having some sourcing and scheduling issues. Thanks!


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## Iggy Newcastle

Your established bacteria will be fine. It lies dormant until there's a food source. If it's going to be weeks, then give them a snack.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Your established bacteria will be fine. It lies dormant until there's a food source. If it's going to be weeks, then give them a snack.


Great thank you!


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## rookie-cichlid1978

rookie-cichlid1978 said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't try to change GH. I would not put all the stuff in listed in CF recipe because that will change GH. You just want KH to change so it can buffer pH. Experiment in a bucket with a measured amount of water and baking soda. Add, test, add, test until you get what you want. Then extrapolate for 125 gallons.
> 
> Your tropicals may prefer a lower pH. You should probably research...maybe a different additive like some leaves would be a better solution.
> 
> After 3 months I would swap an entire tray of biomedia for crushed coral. The reason you want to wait is because you will be removing beneficial bacteria. The beneficial bacteria will grow on the crushed coral and it will become your new biomedia for that tray.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, DJR. I will work on the KH enhancement first and then monitor KH/GH/pH to see if they hold up well. Still 10+ days to go before fish arrive. My tropical tank has driftwood as well so the KH has to be low because of that. Fish are quite exuberant in there so I will just monitor for now.
Click to expand...

Hello DJR (or anyone), 
I am getting ready to do a filter clean in about 1 week for the first time and wanted to procure the "crushed coral" for the filter media. My KH remains at 4 and I would like to get it more stable. Who makes the best quality crushed coral and I was thinking if 5lbs will be enough for now since there is no need to replace it if in the filter. Too many online sources and not sure which one is appropriate.
Thanks!


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## caldwelldaniel26

Just get some aragonite for the filter but it's not going to do a whole lot for the Kh being so low. Calcium carbonate would be better to raise Kh and maintain higher PH


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## Iggy Newcastle

Refresh my memory...

Is your pH dropping from tap to tank after a day? If so, how much?


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## rookie-cichlid1978

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Refresh my memory...
> 
> Is your pH dropping from tap to tank after a day? If so, how much?


I have a stable pH (~8.0) but with low KH (of 4 drops). This is tap water and my substrate is PFS with some Eco-Complete added in for my planted tank. My tap water conditions are stable at the same values. I am not sure if I need to worry about these conditions if I monitor my tap water like I do now before every water change.

I would prefer to not "tinker" (with the hope that my juvies will acclimate to the tank). The aragonite/crushed coral sounded like a good alternative but more than happy to listen to some advice. What is the source of Calcium carbonate in a bag? I know about limestone's high CaCO3 content.


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## Iggy Newcastle

Well with no fluctuation in pH, I wouldn't mess with anything. Stability is more important than changing parameters to meet a number on a species profile.

Sodium bicarbonate will raise your kH. Baking soda. But then you're tinkering every water change. I think the reason folks do not see much buffering from aragonite/coral in their cichlids aquariums is because of the large and frequent water changes that are generally required.

How's the 25 been doing?


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## rookie-cichlid1978

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Well with no fluctuation in pH, I wouldn't mess with anything. Stability is more important than changing parameters to meet a number on a species profile.
> 
> Sodium bicarbonate will raise your kH. Baking soda. But then you're tinkering every water change. I think the reason folks do not see much buffering from aragonite/coral in their cichlids aquariums is because of the large and frequent water changes that are generally required.
> 
> How's the 25 been doing?


I am thinking of calculating and keeping a note about the dosage of additives needed to keep KH/GH stable and monitor both at every water change with pH. If there is a swing at any time, I will be able to quickly solve the issue. I am going to stay away from adding the crushed coral/aragonite to my filter.

My 25g is absolutely fantastic - healthy and clean/clear water with stable numbers. It has a gravel substrate so I can clean the bejeesus out of it with the python so very little "**** to rot". Though i have to say that ounce for ounce the cichlid personality is miles above the tropicals  
Thanks for asking


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## Iggy Newcastle

:thumb:


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## caldwelldaniel26

You can get calcium carbonate on Amazon... It doesn't mess with the PH as drastically as baking soda but really just buffers to a PH of 8.2. I would not worry much about GH though, if it's really low you can just throw a little epsom salt in to supplement it. I just stopped worrying about water chemistry and the fish haven't suffered any ill effects. I maintain pH and that's it.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> You can get calcium carbonate on Amazon... It doesn't mess with the PH as drastically as baking soda but really just buffers to a PH of 8.2. I would not worry much about GH though, if it's really low you can just throw a little epsom salt in to supplement it. I just stopped worrying about water chemistry and the fish haven't suffered any ill effects. I maintain pH and that's it.


How do you figure out the dosing for the calcium carbonate? As someone just starting out, I was going to use a 1-gallon container and dose the powder to see impact on pH. But if you have a "recipe" to follow, I would appreciate that immensely!


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## caldwelldaniel26

There's not really a guideline other than using a bucket and adding until you get the desired results. Sodium bicarbonate raises pH and kH, calcium carbonate is the ingredient in aragonite and crushed coral that buffers and holds pH at 8.2. I wouldn't worry about using baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) unless you have low pH tap water. I would however recommend raising the kH around 8 points on top of your 4 making it 12 drops to prevent any pH crashes.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> There's not really a guideline other than using a bucket and adding until you get the desired results. Sodium bicarbonate raises pH and kH, calcium carbonate is the ingredient in aragonite and crushed coral that buffers and holds pH at 8.2. I wouldn't worry about using baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) unless you have low pH tap water. I would however recommend raising the kH around 8 points on top of your 4 making it 12 drops to prevent any pH crashes.


And then I have to follow this dosing at every water change? Or is it stable for longer?


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## DJRansome

Every water change.


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## caldwelldaniel26

You would most likely have to add a little at each water change to maintain the kH. Sometimes we aren't lucky enough to have perfect water from the tap. Mine comes out at 7.4 pH


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## Iggy Newcastle

If your pH is stable now, why add anything? Don't create more work for yourself. When you make basic maintenance more difficult for yourself, you're more likely to put off the job.


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## caldwelldaniel26

The only thing that concerns me Iggy, is that the OP's kH is only 4 drops and that's really not conducive to maintaining a stable pH in the alkaline range.


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## Iggy Newcastle

For sure man. It's low. But the OP is saying there is no fluctuation of pH. If buffering in some fashion gives peace of mind, then awesome. It's just more work.


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## caldwelldaniel26

I see where you're coming from my friend, it is a peace of mind that affords the added step though. Low kH can lead to catastrophic consequences and something as simple as adding a small scoop of calcium carbonate at water changes isn't really that demanding. I have to raise my pH with every water change in my 180 gallon aquarium, 220 gallons in the system though, which requires a little more finesse and it's just become part of the routine now.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

Thank you for all the patience to answer my questions. I have no issue with adding buffers for "peace of mind". I am currently checking pH of the tap water and again after the tank is filled up (after a WC). Havent kept fish for any length and dont know if the Denver supply water conditions change through the year due to snowmelt etc. Adding CaCO3 externally would be a lot easier!!! It was the chemistry tinkering that worried me because most of the forum posts talk about "stable conditions = good" and "fluctuations = bad".

I wanted to clarify something about the Malawi cichlids in terms of their health and longevity when kept in tank water that is at a pH/hardness level lower than the natural state (my tank is at pH 8.0). Assuming that they are 2-3 month old juvies, will they have a healthy life approaching "typical aquarium lifespan" averages or will both health and lifespan get reduced due to the water quality being different from published Malawi lake conditions?


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## caldwelldaniel26

The only time that it might be a problem would be if the gH was extremely low but as far as pH is concerned, a stable 8 range is ideal for health, breeding, etc... Wild caught fish are a little more sensitive to water chemistry but the majority of fish in the aquarium trade are captive bred and not as sensitive.


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## DJRansome

My tanks are at pH = 7.8 and my fish consistently live longer than their life expectancies.


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## caldwelldaniel26

Yeah 7.8 to 8.8 is generally considered an acceptable pH range for Malawi Cichlids. I use calcium carbonate and it buffers to 8.2, I just meant that anything in the close range of 8 is good.


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## rookie-cichlid1978

DJRansome said:


> Every water change.


Two observations - the calcium carbonate does not dissolve (which I knew) and stays in a cloudy state for almost a day. The second is that there is now a white film on the glass itself from remnants of the CaCO3.

Any further thoughts on the two observations, please? Do you folks see the same?


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## caldwelldaniel26

I've never had that problem, how much are you adding. I premix my water before it goes into the tank, don't know if that makes the difference or what...


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## rookie-cichlid1978

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> I've never had that problem, how much are you adding. I premix my water before it goes into the tank, don't know if that makes the difference or what...


About half a tablespoon sprinkled right as the python starts filling the tank so that there is a good chance of mixing. The water change is about 30% on a 125g and i estimated that the actual volume change is about 25-30g. I have only done this one time so far.


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## caldwelldaniel26

Is it helping the kH any only using that much?


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## rookie-cichlid1978

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> Is it helping the kH any only using that much?


It took it up from 4 to 7 drops. I wanted to confirm fish behavior and tank parameters in the first dosing attempt. Then I observed the cloudy water followed by residue on glass this morning and figured I will ask here before going off and trying something. The cloudy is less of a concern but the residue on a what we call a show tank in the living room is less than ideal because the cleanup of that residue involves something acidic and I might as well retire from keeping African cichlids if I wanted to intervene!!


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## rookie-cichlid1978

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> Is it helping the kH any only using that much?


I may have to look to add a carbonate source to the FX6 tray, maybe. That way there could be more consistency??


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## caldwelldaniel26

That's really strange, I don't have the residue issue and it gets a little bit cloudy after a water change but goes away in a couple of hours. Maybe just try using baking soda instead


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