# Please Help! Need real advice!



## Melbel (Mar 7, 2017)

Hi,

I've been lurking around this site for a while, and I'd wanted to post in the Stocking Sub-Forum, but I'm too new to have those permissions...so here I am. 

HELP!

I have a 125 tank just waiting for me to pull the trigger on a stock list. This will be my first cichlid tank, and , I'm suffering from analysis paralysis.

Before I go further, I am set up already with 2 canister filters, a HOB filter, heaters, argonite substrate, rockwork, caves, etc. Set up and cycle are complete.

I plan to get my stock from <vendor name removed>, which I'm mentioning only because they're local to me, and I'm completely stoked about the fortune!

In discussing which type of African Cichlids to stock, I've been advised "For a 125, definitely go with Mbunas.", and I've been told "With a tank that size, you have to go Haps/Peacocks." Both experts gave strong arguments for their opinion...Which just resulted in my being extra confused.

I've been told Mbuna have more personality, are more colorful overall due to their not being dimorphic, and will ultimately breed like crazy. (I'm not interested in raising fry, but I think mouth brooding is fascinating.). I've also been told they're very aggressive, but if selection is done properly and I overstock, I "might not" have any issues.

For the Haps/Peacock mix, I've been advised to have all males since they are dimorphic, they are not as aggressive as Mbuna, cross-breeding can be an issue if I elect to have any females, but if I don't mind the hybrids (I don't), then they too will naturally breed...Just have to have the ugly females in with the fancy boys. Haps/Peacocks cost more, but I guess I don't know why.

From what I've learned and retained, if it weren't for the aggression, I'd go Mbuna with intent to overstock to eventually reach 50. But the aggression concerns me, and I just can't make up my mind.

Also, I'd really like to start with juvies not only because they're so much less $$, but also because we'll actually enjoy seeing their color and characteristics develop. I have no problem waiting a few months for transition of color in either option.

Juvies (<$4 each) vs. young adults (@$20 each)! Are there advantages/disadvantages to either besides price and color? If not, juvies it is, but I could use someone to actually validate that beyond the LFS dude that want me to spend $20/fish. 

I often hear, "Decide what you like and get those"...but I will most like a tank population that thrives! Please help me create that!

Thank you thank you thank you for reading and in advance for your reply.

Melissa


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

You can get what you want, and do either Mbuna or smaller to mid size Haps/Aulonocara... you just can't do the more aggressive Mbuna mixed with with Haps/Peacocks because the Haps/Peacocks may do poorly (poor color/poor growth) because of the more high tension tank. You can do many different cool Mbuna in a 125g, and there are dozens to choose from... but some very common Mbuna (which are colorful when small) can be a pain because of aggressiveness and that adults may be less attractive than juveniles.

Mbuna can also be dimorphic as well as monomorphic. Personally, I always found it more rewarding watching the males change and color up fully. But some try for the constant little changing color of the monomorphic Mbuna, but even then the most dominant fish will stand out and some fish can be roughed up and less attractive. You can have Haps/Peacocks with females... you can look at Haps and see some that you find have interesting looking females. Or try all males... but if you have a male/female tank you want to try to have a good number of females to spread the stress around.

You don't have to save fry, so the hybrid question really only matters if you plan on seriously breeding pure fish and saving the fry.

As for buying size, the only real benefit of larger fish is knowing if they are male or female. It is easier to add juveniles than adults, because sexually mature adults will fight over breeding issues right from the start. Juveniles are like puppies and kittens, more play fight than gangster seriousness.


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## Melbel (Mar 7, 2017)

noki said:


> You can get what you want, and do either Mbuna or smaller to mid size Haps/Aulonocara... you just can't do the more aggressive Mbuna mixed with with Haps/Peacocks because the Haps/Peacocks may do poorly (poor color/poor growth) because of the more high tension tank. You can do many different cool Mbuna in a 125g, and there are dozens to choose from... but some very common Mbuna (which are colorful when small) can be a pain because of aggressiveness and that adults may be less attractive than juveniles.
> 
> Mbuna can also be dimorphic as well as monomorphic. Personally, I always found it more rewarding watching the males change and color up fully. But some try for the constant little changing color of the monomorphic Mbuna, but even then the most dominant fish will stand out and some fish can be roughed up and less attractive. You can have Haps/Peacocks with females... you can look at Haps and see some that you find have interesting looking females. Or try all males... but if you have a male/female tank you want to try to have a good number of females to spread the stress around.
> 
> ...


Wow! Thank you dearly for spending the time to share your knowledge! Like you, I also enjoy getting to watch the color up. I'm about 85% sold on Mbuna, and though I'm not entirely sure why, I've read many individuals find their Peacocks to be rather "boring" compared to the Mbuna. (This is only what I've heard; no one needs to argue this 3rd party statement.) And as you'd mentioned, since I have no interest in professional breeding anything, cross-breeding is a non-issue.

I admit too that the fact that I can get a 3" Mbuna for the same price as a 1.5" Peacock is nice too.

So now I perhaps check out selection of my LFS (which is expansive), select those I visually prefer, make sure those aren't the big meanies of the Mbuna, and make stocking list accordingly?


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

Mbuna are more rock conscious and territorial, and will use the rocks to take cover and dig around the rocks, so some people find that more interesting. But then there is more aggression concerning the landscape.

Aulonocara/Haps can still have territories but they usually hang above the rocks. Less aggresive overall but you can still have major aggression problems. But males can really color up intensely over time and become very impressive, differently than Mbuna, and you can get satisfaction getting males fully colored up.

All Malawi cichlids will show pecking orders, all types show aggression and dominance, it is just that some tend to be more live and let live while other cichlids are more like leave the tank now or I will beat you until you die.

You will find that most end up trying both groups eventually.


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## DutchAJ (Dec 24, 2016)

noki said:


> Mbuna are more rock conscious and territorial, and will use the rocks to take cover and dig around the rocks, so some people find that more interesting. But then there is more aggression concerning the landscape.


I started a mbuna tank a couple months ago and have never kept haps/peacocks, So I can't offer much advice, but I can say that watching these behaviors has been really interesting so far and I'm glad I went with them. I like that the whole tank is colorful too.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I like both, but I don't think I will have an all-male tank again. Right now I am mostly mixed gender haps and peacocks, but will never give up at least one mbuna tank and at least one Tang tank.


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## Melbel (Mar 7, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> I like both, but I don't think I will have an all-male tank again. Right now I am mostly mixed gender haps and peacocks, but will never give up at least one mbuna tank and at least one Tang tank.


Perhaps the reality is that I don't want to foot the $$$ for an all male hap/peacock tank as large as this one. I seriously just don't know.

I so appreciate the replies, but I still just don't feel as though I have found a clear-cut reason for either. I do understand that we're not comparing a Yugo to a Lamborghini, which is part of my indecision. It's like we're looking at a Honda vs. Toyota...Neither has a huge advantage over the other, but they are different nonetheless.

I'm seriously to the point that I want to just place and internet order with the direction "surprise me" because I just want to get on with it! lol


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

You have received awesome advice.

Before you buy anything, I'd strongly suggest putting together a list of fish that interest you. Bring that list here and folks can advise on a stocking that has a good chance of working out long term. This will be very important.

And you're in the right place for Malawi questions. I don't know of any 'stocking sub forum.' You should have full access to everything this site has to offer.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Your original criteria was not expensive and colorful from day one. I don't see how haps and peacocks fits that at all. Have your criteria changed?

Are you sure you even want Africans?


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## Melbel (Mar 7, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> Your original criteria was not expensive and colorful from day one. I don't see how haps and peacocks fits that at all. Have your criteria changed?
> 
> Are you sure you even want Africans?


Ironically, no, I actually started off to creating a shoaling tank with angels as the highlight. That is a setup with which I have years of experience, and I wouldn't be asking all these novice questions. That tank was when I lived on the other side of the country, and the water supply there was much softer than the 8.2 I have here now in Salt Lake City.

Though it may be perceived as wishy-washy, I get joy out of having the tank, tending to it, watching it thrive, etc.

This selection process at the beginning is not what jazzes me (as you can tell). I just don't want to end up with murder and death in a Mbuna tank and the subsequent regrets.

If Mbuna aren't going to slaughter each other, I prefer their price, but will they look dinky at 4" at maturity in a 125? I can afford 40 fish @$25 each for the Haps/Peacock male-only tank if there's reason for that as well.

I'm simply so darn undecided, and since I've been given both scenarios as being the "best option" by my LFS, and I don't know anyone with even a beta in a bowl, this forum is my best hope.


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## Melbel (Mar 7, 2017)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> You have received awesome advice.
> 
> Before you buy anything, I'd strongly suggest putting together a list of fish that interest you. Bring that list here and folks can advise on a stocking that has a good chance of working out long term. This will be very important.
> 
> And you're in the right place for Malawi questions. I don't know of any 'stocking sub forum.' You should have full access to everything this site has to offer.


I'd like to post a pic of my aquascape so far asking for suggestions for improvement ..Where is the best place to do that?


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Click the Posting Pics link in my signature for instructions.

You can post your pics in this forum if you plan on doing Malawi or in the setup forum if you aren't sure.


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

> I'm seriously to the point that I want to just place and internet order with the direction "surprise me" because I just want to get on with it! lol


You don't want random stuff... there is a huge problem in the hobby with vague fish and hybrids... be picky and keep track of what you get.

If I understand what you posted, you are going to physically visit the vendor? If you can pick out the fish, you might be able to pick out some males from the cheaper juvenile tanks.

Go through the vendor's list/pics and pick out some names of cichlids to start to build a tank around. You can look up pics on this site also.


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## Melbel (Mar 7, 2017)

noki said:


> > I'm seriously to the point that I want to just place and internet order with the direction "surprise me" because I just want to get on with it! lol
> 
> 
> You don't want random stuff... there is a huge problem in the hobby with vague fish and hybrids... be picky and keep track of what you get.
> ...


Yes, I will be going to the brick and mortar location of the supplier. I don't think it's that I want "random" stock, but I just want to get past the Mbuna vs. Hap/Peacock decision. I can't be picky about anything until I pick the Honda or the Toyota.

My "surprise me" comment is actually based on an offer from the supplier stating, "let our florist pick for you a colorful bouquet!". This is for 2.5-3" young adult males from the Hap/Peacock groupings.

I am SO appreciative of the feedback and follow up comments from forum members today! I realized from another comment today that I was basing much of that choice on $$$, which is ridiculously short-sighted.

If I needed a cheap hobby, I'd have picked up knitting.  A few hundred $$$ in the livestock purchase one way or the other isnt a big deal...Or I shouldn't let it be a big deal.


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## Aaron S (Apr 4, 2015)

I am a really cheap person, so I understand the need to be realistic about costs. When asking for advice of the type you are asking for, I find it helpful to know where the person is coming from; so I will tell you that I have a 125gal with placidochromis phenochilus tanzania and labidochromis caeruleus. I used to have a terrible mix of randomly selected mbuna and my wife said "the fish are too mean", so when I upgraded in size I tried to get "nicer" fish (which she still says the yellow labs are too mean by the way).

So you will first have to figure out what kind of fish you want in your tank and what I can say is the best way to decide that is to ask a few questions:
1. How much movement do I want in a tank? (have you seen a beta fish in a tank? Have you seen spastic danio's or mbuna?)
2. Is the size of fish important?
3. How aggressive is OK? (this one is particularly important to your current situation - and is best described by examples of unacceptable aggression levels)
4. There are probably others...but that is all I can think of right now.

One thing you may not have considered based on your comments is to ask yourself do you enjoy watching the fish grow/mature? A large portion of the cichlids in the hobby will show color changes and behavioral changes as they mature and I find that aspect to be really amazing and one of the most fulfilling parts of owning the fish. I have no interest in buying fish that are not juveniles anymore because I miss most of that change.


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## Melbel (Mar 7, 2017)

Aaron S said:


> I am a really cheap person, so I understand the need to be realistic about costs. When asking for advice of the type you are asking for, I find it helpful to know where the person is coming from; so I will tell you that I have a 125gal with placidochromis phenochilus tanzania and labidochromis caeruleus. I used to have a terrible mix of randomly selected mbuna and my wife said "the fish are too mean", so when I upgraded in size I tried to get "nicer" fish (which she still says the yellow labs are too mean by the way).
> 
> So you will first have to figure out what kind of fish you want in your tank and what I can say is the best way to decide that is to ask a few questions:
> 1. How much movement do I want in a tank? (have you seen a beta fish in a tank? Have you seen spastic danio's or mbuna?)
> ...


Thanks Aaron!

I ABSOLUTELY enjoy the joy of watching/experiencing the "growing up" phase...to a point. I've tried to research online how long Lake Malawi cichlids take to grow from juvies to at least the color-morphic stage, but I haven't been able to find a that information. I do anticipate probably 40% water changes no less often than bi-weekly

Admittedly, if it would be 18 months for any noticable coloring to appear, I suppose I wouldn't be thrilled with that option. Perhaps thats why I'm drawn to the Young Adults as they still have 3-6+ months before full, mature coloration.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Some mbuna will start to color up at a very small size. I've had several different species in full color at 2.5" or smaller. Or females holding at 2." How fast they mature in the lake will be different from captivity, of course. With the way keepers tend to over feed such nutritious foods, this happens quickly.

40% is a good place to start. Just keep an eye on nitrates and keep them low. Schedule your changes around this. Since you're already experienced with fish keeping in general, and have your tank already cycled, keeping your water in check should be a breeze for you. That will tie directly to growth and maturity of your fish. Rift Lake cichlids are messy, and the norm is weekly water changes.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Many mbuna are born fully colored as well. They will not slaughter each other if you choose wisely...don't let the vendor choose. Many mbuna mature at 6"...it's the minority that mature at 4". The fish will be zooming around all the time at all levels...your tank will not look empty. Add five Synodontis multipunctatus for additional interest and activity.


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

> Admittedly, if it would be 18 months for any noticable coloring to appear, I suppose I wouldn't be thrilled with that option. Perhaps thats why I'm drawn to the Young Adults as they still have 3-6+ months before full, mature coloration.


If you add all juvenile cichlids some males will immediately start to change and develop color the first month or two. Not all, but the most dominant fish will always start to take charge, the fish at the lowest end of the pecking order might take a year... these tanks are rarely static, things always are changing and evolving, pecking orders be formed and changing. If you put 1.5 to 2.5 inch Malawi cichlids in a large tank with good water changes, these fish will GROW FAST into young adults... you will not have to wait a year for anything to happen. You don't have to add all of the fish at one time, you can more juveniles in the coming months.


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## Melbel (Mar 7, 2017)

Thanks again so much for all the replies and advise...each really helped me develop my own wants (e.g. beauty and color) against what I thought were my requirements (e.g.low cost).

Realizing that perhaps the only reason I was considering Mbuna was because they're cheaper was a good kick in the pants.

Last night I made up my mind, slept on it, and revisited the decision again this morning. And I hadn't changed mind (shocking, I know!)

So, I'm going for an all-male Hap/Peacock tank. I'll start off with 2.5"-3" young adults that I can personally select at the vendor's site no later than next Saturday.

I understand that the all-male tank will have less aggression with the overall best coloration. What I don't understand is the selection of the specific species to be stocked. With Mbuna, I understood that i wouldn't stock species of similar coloration.

With this all-male Hap/Peacock, am I attempting to ultimately stock 40 different species, or can I have 2-3 males of the same species since they will not be trying for the attentions of the females (that are non-existent)?

I hope this question makes sense. I swear, it is so much easier to have a freshwater community tank, but I'm so up for this challenge and tbe learning curve ahead!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

One of each and no look-alikes. Shoot for 20 fish. Make sure you have a spare tank and a rehoming plan as you will have to swap fish as required for a year or two. Read the All-Male article in the Cichlid-forum Library for a good overview.


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## Melbel (Mar 7, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> One of each and no look-alikes. Shoot for 20 fish. Make sure you have a spare tank and a rehoming plan as you will have to swap fish as required for a year or two. Read the All-Male article in the Cichlid-forum Library for a good overview.


Those are fantastic reads in the library! Thanks for their reference.

I've identified 14 Haps and 11 Peacock species based on the stock available at my LFS.

I was careful to omit those that grow significantly larger than "normal" and any that tend to be a bit on the more territorial side.

I have not yet selected or ruled out any species based on similar coloration to another, and I know that must be done, but being a cichlid newbie, I have to look up every last one, etc.

It sounds impossible to find 25+ fish with different colorations out of just Haps and Peacocks. I hope I'm wrong! 

Is there a good place to post my VERY tentative stocking list (though will not all be at once, of course), or is this the place?

So grateful for the internet and helpful souls like those who are reading and assisting this novice.

Thanks again!


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## xgtphalex (Jan 30, 2017)

It's Lake Malawi so I would post here. I would just make a new thread for it.


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## Melbel (Mar 7, 2017)

xgtphalex said:


> It's Lake Malawi so I would post here. I would just make a new thread for it.


Thanks. I'm intimidated with just the thought of trying to type up the names to post since autocorrect seems to believe it knows better.


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## CraGunner (Feb 12, 2016)

Hi Melbel,

As a fellow Northern Utah resident, I know which vendor your talking about, and though they have an incredible reputation for great fish, they don't have the best Mbuna selection. I ended up using two different vendors for that reason, because I was set on some specific Mbuna. So if you were set on going into the store and choosing fish, you made the right decision going with peacocks/haps. That vendor has a great peacock/hap selection. Just trying to help you feel better about your decision :thumb: Also you made the right decision asking people here on the forum for advice. Pretty freaking awesome group of helpful people here.

Hope you're having fun, and welcome to the cichlid addiction.


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## BuckeyeTez (May 10, 2016)

I have an all male Hap/Peacock tank and love it. Most of my fish are fairly different looking and don't have many issues with my mix. Right now I couldn't really tell you who my tank boss is because there is just hardly no aggression. Some fish don't like having another fish right next to them and will let the fish know but they don't injure or chase.

I like the size some are growing too and when people come over and see my 7" fish they are amazed at how big they are.

It's a lot of trial and error with what works and what doesn't. I have 3 Borelyi but all are different'ish in color. One is more blue/orange, one blue/red and one orange with spots (OB) and they could care less about each other. My German Red followed one around for a few days but doesn't seem to care anymore. Occasionally you will have one fish who turns into a bully but you just have to have an extra tank you can remove them to while you come up with a plan.

If you get them all on the smaller size they should have a better chance of being comparable. What may be compatible now may not be in a year so you just have to pay attention and do what's best for the tank. I removed my favorite fish a few months ago because he was going on a rampage...

I'm the end I think you will be happy with an all male.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I think you are absolutely right it's hard to find even 18 males that don't look alike. As for peacocks, once you get a red, a yellow and a blue...what is left?

I did find that usisya and maleri (both yellow peacocks) are OK together, surprisingly enough. But usisya and blue neon and lemon jake...look alikes.

You can see my 125G is mixed gender. I do have 3 males of each, but there are 9 or more females to keep them busy for each species. Not the same as all-male.

People with very large tanks (like 8 feet) have better luck with multiple males of the same species in an all-male tank. But you would expect them to color up differently with only one being maximum color.


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## Melbel (Mar 7, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> I think you are absolutely right it's hard to find even 18 males that don't look alike. As for peacocks, once you get a red, a yellow and a blue...what is left?
> 
> I did find that usisya and maleri (both yellow peacocks) are OK together, surprisingly enough. But usisya and blue neon and lemon jake...look alikes.
> 
> ...


You hit squarely on to my question (that I hadn't entirely even thought through yet!)

...And thank you DJ for entertaining my ignorance...

In order to do any breeding (again, just because it's cool, I don't care if all the fry end up getting eaten, lol) could I have mostly male haps/peacocks and just a few females (yeah, they're ugly), or do ratios have to be higher for the females just like with Mbuna.

I don't want to ultimately have as many as 40ish fish, but 30 ugly females.

If I were to have 15 males to 5 females, is there a benefit to that scenario vs. all male?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The risk is that the females would be killed. Maybe some males too in the process of fighting. And what kills them ends up being disease which spreads through the tank.

The first thing we do when trying to manage aggression in an all-male tank is try to ID females masquerading as males so they can be removed.


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## Melbel (Mar 7, 2017)

CraGunner said:


> Hi Melbel,
> 
> As a fellow Northern Utah resident, I know which vendor your talking about, and though they have an incredible reputation for great fish, they don't have the best Mbuna selection. I ended up using two different vendors for that reason, because I was set on some specific Mbuna. So if you were set on going into the store and choosing fish, you made the right decision going with peacocks/haps. That vendor has a great peacock/hap selection. Just trying to help you feel better about your decision :thumb: Also you made the right decision asking people here on the forum for advice. Pretty freaking awesome group of helpful people here.
> 
> Hope you're having fun, and welcome to the cichlid addiction.


Thanks! Since I'm going Haps/Peacocks, I'm glad they don't have a spectacular selection of Mbuna because, as you can see, I've waffled quite enough on that decision alone!

I love that they're so quick to reply to emails, and that I get to physical pick out specific fish too...Just wish that it didn't have to be on their only day open to the public (Saturday) as I know they are often very busy.

I've been tending aquariums since my early teens, and how I did it ages ago without the internet is a mystery. What's not a mystery though is that many a time so many years ago, I cleaned the bejesus out of my equipment (biowheel and all!), and then I couldn't figure out why all the fish were dying!

Where was Google then?!? 

Thanks for the welcome!


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## Melbel (Mar 7, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> The risk is that the females would be killed. Maybe some males too in the process of fighting. And what kills them ends up being disease which spreads through the tank.
> 
> The first thing we do when trying to manage aggression in an all-male tank is try to ID females masquerading as males so they can be removed.


Just reread your earlier post. I misunderstood originally.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that you have 3 males + at least 9 females of the same species.

So, for example, you have 3 borleyi males and at least 9 borleyi females, yes?

So basically in great generalization, 1 "colorific" + 3 "ugly gals" per species?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I like 1m:4f better if those are the only individuals of that species in your tank. But this is a big tank with a big swarm of fish.

The borleyi females are not all that ugly...dark gray fish with red fins. The Astatotilapia females are nice white with black bars. Just the peacock females are not the greatest.

My three species are on the medium aggressive tending toward timid side, so the 3 males are working so far. I'll let you know how well it works after they have been together 2 years. Although they are spawning, none of the Astatotilapia are full grown dominant males.


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## Melbel (Mar 7, 2017)

Thanks again, DJ. I read before that you ran an all-male tank of this nature before, but that you're not likely to go back to that.

I understand the "process" is never-ending to some degree, but I sure hope I can get started with out too much inner-tank drama.


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## engotski (Dec 29, 2014)

If its a 6ft 125g tank, maybe consider a small colony of Zaire Gibberosas?

1M/6F Mikulas :dancing:


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## Melbel (Mar 7, 2017)

It is a 72" wide 125 gallon, but I dont think I'd want a fish that gets over 12" with 20 other fish that top out around 6" (maybe 8). Seems that might just be asking for trouble on some level.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The recommendation was in lieu of mbuna...just a species tank of the frontosa.


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## Melbel (Mar 7, 2017)

As of late Sunday, it's decided: Haps/Peacocks.
I'm too worried about aggression with all Mbuna, and the selection for H/Ps at my LFS is unparalleled...Well, for Utah at least.


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