# ZThe Price of Blue Dempseys



## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Iâ€™ve been working with Blue Dempseys for a little over 2 years and am gaining a much better working knowledge of these fishâ€¦ Here are some of my thoughts regarding pricingâ€¦

To properly form a Blue Dempsey producing pair one will need to buy a group of young Blue and raise them upâ€¦ meanwhile raising a group of Standard Dempseysâ€¦ select the strongest Blue male and the strongest Standard femaleâ€¦ This will take 6+ monthsâ€¦

Then spawn them and raise the offspringâ€¦ Itâ€™s likely to take some time to get them to spawn and to get a full brood goingâ€¦

Meanwhile buy another group of Blues from a different source (to avoid inbreeding) and raise them to sexual maturityâ€¦ Due to raising the Blue Genes from free swimmers to sexual maturity this will take about 9 months.

So it takes a year and a half to breed Blues if nothing goes wrong (which it usually does).

Then once you have a pair that produce Bluesâ€¦ only half the offspring are Blueâ€¦ only half the Blues ones will be worth raisingâ€¦ only half those we raise are expected to be of sellable qualityâ€¦

That means Iâ€™ll get about 1/8 as many sellable Blues as I would had I been breeding Standard Dempseys. Which in turn means the price of Blue Dempseys â€œshould beâ€


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

I was honestly surprised at the price I saw EBJD at the first time at the LFS, $27.99. I knew the process, so expected them to be quite a bit more expensive. Especially if that was the retail price, it meant the wholesale price was about $7 or so. But then, the wholesale price of dempsey's is about .50 cents ... so it seems at least the 2" size the pricing is about 8x.

Now, more recently, the same 2" EBJD were $59.99 ... at least in my area.


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## stuckinthemiddle (Feb 26, 2008)

Well said Toby.

Im curious as to what other members of this forum are seeing for prices in their respective area for blue dempsey up to 3" and prices for blues 3" and larger.


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## terd ferguson (Jul 31, 2007)

I can't comment on the retail prices of the blues as they just aren't available in my area. What I can comment on is Toby's desire to strengthen the strain. This kind of work is commendable. I can appreciate the lengths he goes to in order to do this.

I don't often comment in your threads Toby, but I do eagerly read them. I can certainly appreciate your scientific approach. It is refreshing to see you put in so much effort and time in order to produce better fishes. How about some pictures? I'd like to see some of my old girl again too. I know she's in good hands and I'm glad she's working out so well for you. Keep up the good work. :thumb:


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## lil mama (Nov 24, 2007)

Kudos to you Toby. I wish I could buy one of your EBJD. They simply aren't available here........at least I have never seen one for sale and I have asked. What would I be willing to pay for one that I knew was of a strong strain? I would have to say $50 for a 2" with nice color. You might get little more from me if I could really tell it had nice color. That is definitely a fish on my wish list. Keep up the good work :thumb:


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## OceanDevil (Jul 17, 2005)

$55 for a 1-2 incher here. 
At 1 lfs anyway.


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## myselfdotcom (Sep 19, 2006)

true that but eventually the market is so saturated..it's basically like stock..those who got in early will make some dough...and those who got in late...oh well.

But pricing basically determine by demand, supply and also competitive between sellers.


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## jefejt (Mar 10, 2005)

They are a difficult fish to raise to sellable size. Around here the go for $50-60 at an LFS. JDs at the same sell for $2-5.


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## LJ (Sep 12, 2007)

> I was honestly surprised at the price I saw EBJD at the first time at the LFS, $27.99. I knew the process, so expected them to be quite a bit more expensive. Especially if that was the retail price, it meant the wholesale price was about $7 or so


I'm curious as to how you were able to extrapolate the wholesale price from the retail price.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Just to work in a pet store when I was younger, ordered in the fish and did the mark ups. Most lfs the markup is 3x-4x depending on the fish. Doesn't help that some of the lfs let me look at the lists for fish I want either. If I know the fish on the list is $7 and they charge me $21.99 ... 

Some are quite a bit higher though. We sold 20 cent glowlight tetras for $2.99. :lol: But more spendy fish tend to have a lower mark up ironically enough, IME.

Now watch barbie or another lfs owner come flame me to a miserable death for leaking secrets.


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## LJ (Sep 12, 2007)

Thanks. That's very interesting. I wonder why the mark-up. It's hard to believe that the cost of keeping and selling each fish is so high. However, it seems to be the only explanation for a constant mark-up. If the pricing scheme was based on something else, like if brick-and-mortar fish stores had some local market power, then you would expect the mark-up to vary with the popularity of the fish, as opposed to remaining constant at 20-something.

Hopefully, barbie _will_ chime in.

Toby, great topic, very interesting. And congrats on maintaining your standards.


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## cc_woman (Jan 31, 2008)

I agree that people should be trying their best to produce the best offspring they can, so that you get the best quality for your money's worth. I have heard of people complaining in edmonton, which is 3 hours away, that a 2" EBJD was selling for $90-$100. I think $50 is reasonable, but you gotta be out of your mind paying double that. Before they became a fad, breeders were just throwing them away because they thought of them as bad stock, and now there is such a high demand for them.

Retailers sell absolutely everything at greater mark up prices, and sometimes it is absolutely pathetic considering how much it costs to make the products. My bf used to work at future shop (an electronic retailer). He got everything at cost. There was a set of high definition cables for our tv that the store was selling for $106, he paid $7 for them.....no wonder why some of these store owners are rich :roll:

But I think when it comes to good quality fish stock, we do need to consider the fact of the time and money it takes to raise the fish from fry. Thanks Toby for putting that out there, hopefully we won't get a bunch of idiots breeding bad stock just to make a killing.


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## cole (Oct 25, 2006)

I think people should just be very careful about what they are pricing EBs and BGs as. Case in point are auctions at aquabid with sales begining with no reserve:

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/ ... 1215917445

Here is Arnold selling 3 - BG adults for a grand total of $42.11. That works out to $14.04 each. :lol:

He lists the auction after much conversation of his inferior line and the prices plummeted. Now we have someone with 3 inferior BGs they bought for $14 each. They will have high expectations of low quality specimens and in the end will produce low quality EBs at a reduced price.

Several others who have worked with this line have decided to trash it and start with something better. The EBs I have recently created using this Ormed #2 lline also have seen major mutations and high death rate between week 3 and 4. My other lines seem more promising so I will likely be next to throw the #2 line out completely!

IMHO, the best JD specimens to start your projects will not be bought, but collected. F0 JDs have shown to me to have a natural resistance to diseases and parasitic infestations that many other tank raised JDs and EBs tend to suffer from. It is possible to use an F0 specimen to breed back to an Ormed #2 EB to try and patch the issues we have all seen. But IME I have started to realise the best possible scenario for getting the best possible EBs will be to get away from the #2 line all together.

I actually would suggest a program that takes a little longer then Toby's suggestion, and goes a couple steps further.

1)Raise a large group of juvie JDs and isolate the best possible female specimens.(start here if you dont have access to f0 JDs.)

2)Raise a large group of juvie EBs and isolate only your top specimens.

3)Breed these EBs to F0 JDs if possible or JDs you have hand selected from a large brood.

4)Raise your BGs while culling out the weak...then breed the best of the best back to the best of your best EBs. (alot of people are done at this point and selling EBs)

5)I would encourage everyone to raise all of your first few broods of EBs, so you can hand select the best possible specimens to use in your breeding projects.

6)Now that you have the best possible EB specimens and the best possible BG specimens, you can sit back and be comfortable that what you are selling is of top quality.

A lot of people have made quite a bit of effort over the last couple years to get on solid ground with these projects. It seems there are easily 10 fold as many people who are unsure or who are not following strict guidelines. In the end, so long as there are people doing the right thing, we will have some great specimens in the coming years and the prices will reflect the quality.

I think 2 prices will likely co-exist for EBs, a price for bad quality and a price for good quality specimens. These prices will obviously be reflective of the time and effort the breeders have put into thier projects. In 1 year you will be able to buy a 2" specimen for $10, or $40. But when the $40 fish are looking unbelievable, who will waste money one an inferior EB?

Anyway I like to rant as you can see, and as many have come to realise over at our site allthingsdempsey.com. Sorry if I got off topic.

At any rate around here EBJDs are nowhere to be found and have been absent from the scene for just about 18 months. Prices for EBs should not only be reflective of the things mentioned but also by how far and few between they actually are. We may have quite a few breeders around here now but off the top of my head I can count all known breeders who are pumping out top quality specimens on a single hand. The demand is far greater then the supply and it should be reflected in the prices.

So when the occasional EBJD does come around, I expect to see them for $20 an inch:

1" $20
2" $40
3" $60
4" $80
5" $100

Very good topic for discussion Toby, and congrats on your success thus far. I am really looking forward to what the future has in store for us. :thumb:

Cole~


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## cc_woman (Jan 31, 2008)

Thanks for all the info, I never knew breeding good quality would be that intense and complicated. So how can you tell the difference between BG's and JD's?


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## cole (Oct 25, 2006)

cc_woman said:


> Thanks for all the info, I never knew breeding good quality would be that intense and complicated. So how can you tell the difference between BG's and JD's?


Not a problem, its my pleasure.

The only true way to distinguish BGs from JDs are to breed them with EBs or other known BGs. If you you breed them with EBs you should expect roughly 50% Blue fry and with BGs you will get around 25% blues. If you get no EBs from a suspected BG x BG spawn, then one or both of your fish are standard JDs.

I believe though the more you breed and observe JDs, BGs and EBs, it is somewhat possible to distinguish BGs from JDs by color and cranial structuring...but this has not been proven. The more BGs hit the open market, the bigger chance we have of BGs being mistaken for JDs and vice versa. Mainly though in SOME specimens you will see BGs have a larger nuchal hump with eyes positioned oddly and pearling/coloration is more pronounced.

It is my opinion that inferior BGs will have odd cranial structuring and eye placement and superior BGs will have better pearling then most JD specimens.

Cole~


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## stuckinthemiddle (Feb 26, 2008)

"I think 2 prices will likely co-exist for EBs, a price for bad quality and a price for good quality specimens. These prices will obviously be reflective of the time and effort the breeders have put into thier projects. In 1 year you will be able to buy a 2" specimen for $10, or $40. But when the $40 fish are looking unbelievable, who will waste money one an inferior EB?"

With a 2 tier pricing structure as you suggested, one for the poor quality blues an one for the good quality, I think the general population is going to go with the cheaper version. There are alot of uneducated fish buyers out there, I was one of them! I feel it will be the same people who are buying juvie oscars to put in their 10 gal community tank will be the same people buying inferior blues simply because they dont have the knowledge and their kid is pulling on their pants leg saying, "Get the blue one! Get the blue one!" I for one, hope that it never comes to this, but I guess only time will tell.

On another note, the owner of the LFS where I got my blue juvies, says he is gonna take me down to the "fish warehouse", where he gets his stock. I can't wait to see the set up there and maybe snoop around at where they are getting their blue dempseys from.

Of the 2 I bought, one already has a clear deformation on the eye (one eye is much bigger than the other and has a tinge of red to it) and is half as colorful as the other. He does not stock them, but special ordered them for me. His cost is $25 and if he would ever retail them, it would be at $50/each.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

I personally do not believe that there will ever be two price tiersâ€¦

I think that when those of us working toward creating stronger lines do so and make them availableâ€¦ the reputation of Blue Dempseys will improve and all the other corner cutters will start lying and saying they get their Blues from the new high quality sourcesâ€¦ when in reality they are selling the same inbred, inferior garbage they have been for yearsâ€¦

The result of this is even more people will feel ripped off and the reputation of Blue Dempseys will hit an all time lowâ€¦

I personally do not believe there is much money left to be made off of this morph, at least not in comparison to what it takes to breed higher quality stock.

My motives from day one have been to produce a higher quality Blue Dempsey that I can enjoy in my tanks. My dreams of profiting off of fish breeding have been dispelled long agoâ€¦

Another downside is as we create stronger Bluesâ€¦ the corner cutters are likely to buy quality stock from us and use them in the corner cutting breeding process. Their offspring will be compromised in comparison to our higher quality stockâ€¦ but will improve the corner cutters stockâ€¦

Which is all the result of people being too [email protected] lazy to do it rightâ€¦ but want the benefits of having done it right. How to have both you ask?â€¦ lied to the consumer!!! This works perfectly, at least with the uneducated consumer...


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## jefejt (Mar 10, 2005)

Agree, although two tier pricing may be logical it doesn't seem practical with the exception of serious breeders willing to pay more for quality stock. However a flooded market doesn't bode well for either scenario. Having tried my hand at this I don't see there being a time where people will be mass producing EBJDs. Even for those who buy BGs or cut corners it is still a process and isn't easy. I think in the end people like Cole and Toby will win out with their dedication and willingness to make sacrifices. Sure they may lose a sale or two in the mean time, but in the end I think they'll be the ones people go to to get their EBJDs.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

When I make statements about the general Blue Dempsey market Iâ€™m simply talking about those selling Blues, not hobbyists breeding them to share with local friends and fishheads. Itâ€™s not until someone starts pushing their stock â€˜out thereâ€™ that I factor them into â€œthe marketâ€


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## DEMPSEYSDAN (Aug 27, 2008)

Hi everyone,
I joined here mainly because of Toby's here. 
As many stated already their should be different pricing on eb's but I think that is just wishful thinking.
I joined 2 other dempsey forums to help inform people how to create better eb's.
I have stood alone for years with creating better eb's as they are far from what they should be.
Most won't take the proper steps to produce good quality eb's it's a process that is time consuming.
They will take as many short cuts as possible as I have already seen.
As soon as they start producing them they go on aquabid right away without seeing any outcome.
This is just further tarnishing the name of the eb and it really needs to STOP.
Eb's should stay at $20-$25 for 1"-1.5" this is good quality eb's with known outcome.
When I see sibling pairs being sold or eb's of unknown quality being sold above this it drives me nuts.
Most eb's are not worth this price so be careful of what you buy.
If you are fortunate to be able to buy from a lfs look for correct mouth alignment lips should be even.
Also look for a nice Jd slope head with no beaks best seen when they are looking up at the top of the tank.(during feeding)
Any reputable lfs will feed if you ask them to because A: you want make sure they are eating and B: you get to look for the beak nose.
In the end if you are trying to breed this fish for money you can find better more profitable fish too make money on.
If you are trying to improve the eb because you love the fish then you will do what it takes to get it done right.
If you are after self reward take a back seat and wait for the people that are truly in this to help put the eb in the same class as a JD.


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## stuckinthemiddle (Feb 26, 2008)

Hey Dan, welcome to the forum! By the way, all of the BGs are growing like weeds!

cory


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Welcome to the wonderful world of Cichlid Forum Dan!

Dan might seem like a â€˜know it allâ€™ sometimesâ€¦ but every time Iâ€™ve put his knowledge to the test itâ€™s helped me make improvementsâ€¦ and every time Iâ€™ve â€˜researchedâ€™ his advice it has proved to be solidâ€¦ I wonder if he does know everything 

Dan is a good guy with a very good insight on breeding Blue Dempseys. Iâ€™m glad you joined and look forward to sharing results of each of our breeding programs.

But hurry up on growing out some Blues! lol


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## DEMPSEYSDAN (Aug 27, 2008)

stuckinthemiddle said:


> Hey Dan, welcome to the forum! By the way, all of the BGs are growing like weeds!
> 
> cory


Thanks Cory,
You are the first too buy bg's off me and could be the last.
I was thinking of trying to offset the mess that was created but decided I would have to release way too many bg's to do that.
The male you received you can't possibly directly inbreed it as it's a mix already.
I'm confident that you will do the right things with them.
I would never put them on aquabid and I honestly don't think they should be sold at all.
I made a decision and quickly changed my mind.



Toby_H said:


> Welcome to the wonderful world of Cichlid Forum Dan!
> 
> Dan might seem like a â€˜know it allâ€™ sometimesâ€¦ but every time Iâ€™ve put his knowledge to the test itâ€™s helped me make improvementsâ€¦ and every time Iâ€™ve â€˜researchedâ€™ his advice it has proved to be solidâ€¦ I wonder if he does know everything
> 
> ...


Thanks for the kind words Toby.
I read a lot that's all I'm an info nut...
I wish I knew everything. 
This forum is huge!!!:drooling: :dancing: 
Thanks for the lead also.


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## stuckinthemiddle (Feb 26, 2008)

Went to another LFS store today that someone told me about and the first thing I noticed was a EBJD. It was the only one in a tank with a some tiger barbs. It had a much longer body shape than mine and was almost totally blue where as mine has black patches on them. At any rate, the price was $80  . I asked why it was so expensive and the owner said, it was shipped from L.A. Im probably gonna stop by this weekend again and see if i can take a pic of it with my phone. Maybe I can find out if she is buying from a wholesaler or from an individual/breeder.

Dan, you dont have to worry. They wont go to bid on any auction site and wont be sold. Had to kiss up to the wife for a month to get these! Im gonna try to get a pic of my blues posted so you guys can tell me if they are any good or not. I already have a feeling about them, but just want confirmation from you guys.

By the way, so that makes two different prices for the blues within a 5 mile radius. .... $50 & $80

Anyone else?


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## Markm0723 (May 17, 2006)

Hi Dan, its good to see you here on the Cichlid-forum.

Mark


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