# How many Bolivian Ram fry to live past 2 weeks in the norm?



## Dizzcat (Aug 26, 2008)

I posted this in th Bolivian Ram Club almost a month ago and never got an answer on this. So I am re-posting it as a new post. My Bolivians are going to be spawning any time now. The female is starting to dig and clean a rock. She is also twitching at the male and she only does this within hours of a spawn! So, I really need some input people! I don't want to loose this batch too!

*Original Post from April 12:*
Hello everyone  I am not new to the forum, just have never posted on the BRC before.

I have a pair of them, have had them 2 years. My babies have spawned many times in the past. The very first time they did I got 15 to grow out to the "teen" size. After that we had many things go wrong. I had regular aquarium rock substrate (pea sized) and one spawn they lost all the wigglers in the rock because they couldn't dig them out. The first spawn made it because they used a natural indent in a lava rock as a pit. I switched to a tiny rock after that. They then spawned 3 more times with the mom eating the wigglers as they hatched! So I never knew if the smaller store made a difference. When I set up my African Mbuna tank I had a ton of play sand left over and loved the look so much I redid the Ram tank with that. Wow did they love that :thumb: My male loved it so much I had to put him on the other side of a divider for a month because he dug huge pits and started attacking everything! He had never done that before!

So, a couple days before Christmas I happen to notice my female over a big batch of wigglers. I had been so preoccupied with the holidays I didn't take the time to really watch the tank once or twice a day like I usually do. She dug a nice pit right in front against the glass. So, I did a frantic water change and as I was she made it so easy to put in my divider because she held them all in her mouth till I was done! After I got one side done she swam over and I put in the divider (she acts like she knows when I do!) and she dug a pit with her nose and spit them in it! I was so proud of her! That batch was about 150 wigglers. After they became free swimming they were getting past the divider. I cover mine with a fine netting because as we all know they swim right thru the holes! These little ones were going past were its against the side. So, I took everyone else out of the tank and put them in another for the time being. Papa stayed in on the other side. The female developed issues with him after the second spawn and would never let him near after they spawned. He patrolled the other side and collected any strays and kept them under him. Problem was, the water movement was too much and they slowly starved to death  They could not get enough to eat before the current took it away. So, I put my breeders net in and scooped up as many as I could. All but one died within a couple days. Except one big strong one.

Next spawn was January. This time I put the divider up on the other side of the tank with the papa. He turned out to be the best parent! Mom patrolled the other side, keeping all other fish away. After a week I scooped up a bunch and moved them to a small 2.5 gallon tank to grow some. As time went on these started to die off. The ones with dad were too, but he had a group that was getting strong. There was no water movement on his side, just what came thru the divider. As I squirted in the BBS it stayed in a cloud instead of floating way. I ended up putting the ones I took away back with him, because his looked stronger. I got 9 that time to live past a month.

Next batch was in Feb. They spawned in the middle of the tank. This time she let him help. I just left them alone because I didn't have anymore room for fry. All fry were gone after 2 days of free swimming. The other fish snagged them.

OK, my questions. :-? The largest group I have gotten past 3 weeks is 15. How many in a clutch of 200 is normal to live past that time? I have noticed the ones who live to 3 weeks will live on. I feed them frozen BBS. Would I have a higher survival rate if I did the live BBS? My biggest batch to live I had put a bunch in a 5 gallon the day after they became free swimming. I tried a breeders net, and an angel sucked most thru the netting. I have since made a cover for it with plastic canvas. The angel could not get to them then! I also raise the temp to 80 degrees F because I read it helps survival rate.

Since their last spawn I have moved them to a 30 gallon tank. I now have a 10 gallon I use for mouth brooders and their fry, but I would use that for Ram fry next time. Any thoughts on its setup? It has a 1/2" layer of sand and a couple fake plants and/or rocks (right now a pot and rocks because it has a holding M. Greshakei female in there). A small HOB filter and nice heater. I keep this tank at 80 Degrees for the fry. It has been up and running for almost 2 years now.

What am I doing wrong? Would live food make a difference? I swear you say boo and half of them die on the spot! 

I started reading past posts on this thread, but after 20 pages decided it was too much to wade thru another 90 :lol:

So here are my kids

The Male. He is big at almost 4" and a wonderful dad! 









The mama. She is a feisty one! She was attacking him right after a spawn in this pic:









A spawn, mom in the back, pops in front.









Little Free swimmers









This is the only one to make it from the Dec Spawn, He's 1 1/2" Next to him is one from my Jan spawn. See how much smaller they are compared to him? They are 1/2-3/4". They are only 1 month apart! Why? 









And finally, a pic of my cuties. All fry now live with the folks in the big tank. So I have 2 adults, 1 "teen" and 7 "Kids". Its really fun to watch all the interaction! :thumb: 









Thanks for reading this far  I have so many people that want my Bolivian Ram fry, but have such bad luck with raising many to sell-able size. Any idea how I can get them to grow faster too? Any and all suggestions and ideas are welcome! 
Thanks :thumb:[/quote]


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Hi Dizzcat. I'm sorry to hear you didn't received a proper answer on your question. To be honnest I don't visit the BRC treat that often any more. So I give it a shot to answer your questions.

A group of 200 fry is rather large and can only be produced by adult parents. Growing up such a group in a community tank is realy hard. Like you mentioned tankmates snack away fry and when the fry get older and start to spread around the tank it is open hunting season for the tankmates. When a lot of fry die (and not geting eaten) it is often related to foods or water qualety. For good growth you need to keep nitrates below 15 mg/liter and preferable below 10 mg/liter. Often this will result in 50% water changes every day especially when the fry are around 6 weeks or older. The number of feedings in the first 8 weeks or so should be around 7 times a day. Fresh hatched bbs are the best foods but there are also good results with Hikari first bites witch is a dust food. I soaked the powder first for 5 minutes or so in an cup with some tankwater and put it in the group of fry with a pipette. When they were around 8 weeks I start to introduce daphnia to their menu as well. You could breed them your selves if you like or buy them from the good qualety lfs. Make sure the fry can eat the size of an adult daphnia.

There are 2 methods of raising the fry,....in tank by parents or separate them and artificially grow them out. Imo best qualety Bolivians are the parent raised. They learn from their own parents how to take care for fry. Later on this will defenately make them better parents. Fry with deformities won't make it and you will be left with the strongest and best qualety fish. Tank raising Bolivians in a community tank, start of with 200 and end with 15 is a great score! Remember,...the number is low but they will be good qualety fish with potential skills to become better parents as their own artificially raised parents. Imo this method is the best. Don't forget to keep some of the fry appart so you will have pairs of them later on. The change that you can buy parent raised Bolivians down the line will be very very small.

If you want to sell people Bolivians and still give them better qualety as the fish from the stores you can artificially raise the fry. Best is to let the parents do their job until the fry become free swimming. I suggest to keep them as long as posible in with the parents. When you notice the number of fry is reducing you can siphon out the fry. A hose, a bucket and simply vacume them into the bucket. This will couse les demage as netting them. Empty the bucket in an cycled small tank of say 10 gallon. I do suggest to leave around 20 fry with mom and dad so they can keep on gaining their skills. They might even raise some of the fry and the smaler number makes them easier to protect. When the fish start to grow in the 10 gallon tank and the nitrates begin to raise even with the 50% daily water changes you need to up-grade to a larger tank or spread them over multiple tanks. If you were able to vacuum out say 120 fry you will raise abouth 50 to 60 healthy Bolivians. Some will die naturally and some need to be culled becouse of deformities. Common deformities are bended spins, large eyes and small bodies, deformed fins, odd head shapes. You don't want to put deformed fish on the market with the risk of someone breeding them don't you. Often those deformed fish will die any way.

Some important things,......7 feeds a day until 8 weeks of age and slowely step back but make sure their bellies are nice filled all the time. When they are half a year abouth 4 feeds a day will be enough. With small fry you need to cover filter intakes! Even the smallest gap can couse a lot of fry to die. When they are around 3-5 weeks of age they are extremely curious and are all over the tank. Reduce the flow in the tank becouse the filter will take out the foods rather quickly and the fry don't like the high currents. Feed good qualety foods. Start off with BBS and or Hikari First Bites. Those are the best foods for the small fry. Keep on feeding BBS as long as posible or switch to daphnia when the fish are large enough. Also start feeding crushed flakes when they are around 8 weeks or so and feed it in the morning. At first they have to get used to the taste of it and thats best done when the fish are the hungriest,...in the early morning. Keep nitrates at all cost below 15 mg/liter. Bolivians are extremely slow growing fish (for their size and life span) so you need to keep the tank clean. I advice to go bare bottom and at least to the age of 8 weeks. The fish won't mind, can find foods easier and you will be able to keep the tank clean. Later on you can add some sand but if it doesn't bother you I would go bare bottom all the way. It will take at least 5 months before the fry are large enough to find a new home with a skilled experienced fish owner. People that are relatively new to the hobby should get fish of 7 to 8 months of age becouse those are easier to raise to adults. At that age they can spawn for the first time (practice spawns).

Ed wrote and article on this site abouth raising fry. You will find it in the library or in the Bolivian profile. Around page 30 to 40 on the BRC Cathy (Katie Rose) starts telling abouth how she raises Bolivian fry. Around that page I artificially raised my first batch with her help.

I keep 7 fish in 50 gallon (20x16x40) and every 2 weeks one or 2 pairs are spawning. This is going one for over 1 1/2 years now. I never raise or do an atempt to raise the fish becouse I can't sell them on our small local market. If your willing to make all the effort of raising the fish it is great to watch them grow from tiny little wigglers to beautiful young adults. I hope you make a lot of people happy with the youngsters. If you sell them I do suggest to advice everyone to keep them in small groups. Thats the best way of keeping Bolivians. If to many spawns fail your male can turn against your female and eventually chase her to death. In a group this won't happen. For a group of 5 you need at least a 35 gallon heavy planted tank. You can ask a higher price for parent raised fish and if you are explaining why they are more worthy I think lots of people will be willing to pay extra money.

I hope I answered your questions 

Take care and do you keep us up-dated on how things defelop?


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## Dizzcat (Aug 26, 2008)

*Dutch Dude*

I do all that you suggested. My best batches are parent raised. The only thing I see could be my issue is feeding. I am not feeding enough. So, I bought some bbs eggs and next time they spawn I will grow some and see if that makes the difference.

Thanks for the help.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Dizzcat,....you can't feed BBS eggs!!! They are a saltwater shrimp and the eggs need to be hatched in saltwater. Next step is to separate the empty shells and the BBS. I can't tell you how to hatch BBS the old fashioned way but I'm sure lots of people can help you out with that and many articles abouth it are written. I hatch my BBS in a in tank hatchery but I don't think it is availeble over there and only in parts of Europe. In the past I found an on-line shop who also could ship to the US but that was a long time ago. I use the Inter Ryba Naupli Star.......your lucky,...I just found the on-line shop,...here the link http://www.shopsolution.nl/shop/home.as ... nauplistar


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## Dizzcat (Aug 26, 2008)

I know you can't feed them the eggs. I mean as they become wigglers setup a hatchery to get some going. I have one all set up just waiting now for a spawn. I have always fed the frozen bbs, thawed out in tank water and squirted into the fry group. Next time I will hatch the bbs eggs and feed them the hatched shrimp.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

> I know you can't feed them the eggs. I mean as they become wigglers setup a hatchery to get some going.


 Aaaah OK!  Sounds good and what a relive you already know how to hatch the eggs, haha. BBS are the most nutritious right after hatching. The process of freezing BBS often couse damaging of the creatures and the nutritions from their yolk sack just leak out. The same for adults BBS. Also fry are more susceptible to troubles when the frozen food isn't as fresh as we assume it is. Life BBS and / or Hickari First Bites will be the best foods you can feed Bolivian fry. Good luck and do you keep us posted?


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## Dizzcat (Aug 26, 2008)

Well, my Rams spawned a week ago last Sunday, on May 17. I now have free swimmers, they started to swim on Sunday. While I was waiting I practiced with hatching bbs. This time, when I look close at the fry, they have *FAT gold tummies*! :dancing: I have never seen my fry so full before! I have been squirting in the bbs every 3-4 hours. As soon as I notice the gold tummies getting smaller. These fry are more advanced than all my other batches! They are swimming better, more curious and just plain stronger! I have two hatcheries going at once. One that has the hatched bbs, the other a new batch for the next day.

I think the biggest difference between the frozen bbs and the live ones is the fry see the live ones much better? I will watch them catch the bbs in mid water right after I squirt them in. Then later, you can see the bbs wiggling on the bottom against the sand and the fry getting them there too. Maybe fry just cannot see or smell the frozen kind (yes, I thawed it out first) as well as something wiggling in their face. Even papa does not attack the squirter like he has in the past. He used to go nuts whenever I squirted food near his fry, now he ignores the hose and will even move them closer to it! I got a medicine syringe from the pharmacy and attached a ridged tubing to it, so I can get right down to the bottom.

So, I am happy to say I have only found 1 dead one so far and the norm for the 3rd day of free swimming has been about 10-20.

Unfortunately before I got the divider up, someone (probably my Cory) got into the eggs and there was only about 30 left. But, this can be fortunate if they all live, because realistically, what would I do with 200 Ram fry? :lol: I do have a lfs that wants all future Ram juvies I have, but doubt he would want more than 30 at a time 

I will leave them in with their papa for about a month or so, then move them to a 10 gallon grow out, then a 30. I have to separate the parents, one with the fry, the other on the other side of the divider. They get along really good until there are eggs. Once the spawn is over they fight really bad! She used to win, but the last 2 times he did. They were so busy fighting before I got the divider in, my Cory got into the eggs. I am glad it was the dad who won, he is a better caretaker than her. She always looses interest in protecting and caring for them after they have been free swimming about a week. He cared for the last batch for over a month.

Here is a video remix of the spawn. It ends with the fight. 
http://s530.photobucket.com/albums/dd35 ... a0b667.pbr

Here are the fry the first day of free swimming. So cute the way they follow the papa everywhere he goes! I love the way his movements will send a fry spiralling out of control :lol: 
Also, the papa found the little lost one and put him back in the group. 
http://s530.photobucket.com/albums/dd35 ... 864f89.pbr


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## briansbelle (May 24, 2008)

those videos are GREAT!!! =D>

I love these little guys and cant wait to add some to my fish collection.

they are so pretty and i love the little clouds you put, especially the one that says "wait for us papa" that is too cute!!

gorgeous fish and congrats on the free swimmers. :thumb: :dancing:


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Hey *Dizzcat*,

Congratulations. :thumb:

Are you performing any water changes while the fry are with the parents?


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## Dizzcat (Aug 26, 2008)

> especially the one that says "wait for us papa" that is too cute!!


That was just so perfect!! The dad was at the side of the tank, which is against the couch. I pulled the couch out to get a good shot and as soon as I started recording he moved over. They followed him over at the perfect timing! Notice the very last one? I looked over just as he noticed the group was gone and he booked over :lol:



> Are you performing any water changes while the fry are with the parents?


I will be tonight. I will use a small hose for the side the fry are on, and if I catch any will just use a baster thing and put them back. I will also be removing some of the plants to make that side as bare as possible to make future cleanings easier. I will just leave in the Amazon sword. I will use my regular hose on the side with the other fish. Below is a picture of how the tank is divided. On the left side is all the fish in the planted community tank and on the right is dad with his kids. I give the parent about 6", so him and the fry have a space that is 6 x 12. I find any more room until they get bigger and they have trouble finding the food. I always have small flat river stones in the tank for them to spawn on. I put them to the sides, like 3 on the right, 3 on the left. That way, when they do spawn I don't have to move the rock with the eggs over to put in a divider. I also cover the divider with a fine netting because the fry are so tiny they swim right thru the holes in the divider! They know what the divider is now. As soon as its up they relax and concentrate on the eggs/fry instead of guard duty. One time I missed the spawn and found mom with a pit full of wigglers! It was last Dec and I was so busy I didn't do my daily checks. Well, as I cleaned she carried the fry in her mouth, then went over to one side and waited for me to put the divider in! Then when I was done she dug a pit with her nose and spit them in it!

Here is a good picture that shows their fat gold tummies! You can also see the tiny bbs swimming. If you look at the 3rd to last picture in my original post of the tiny fry you can see their tummies are not full like these ones. I was feeding frozen bbs to those. 









here's my usual divider setup. It can be on the left or right side, depending on what side they spawn on.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Great idea with the divider :thumb: Filter foam used for pond filter can create a divider as well.

How are the fry doing???


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## Dizzcat (Aug 26, 2008)

The fry are doing very good! I have only seen a couple dead ones and those were deformed. Because I am feeding them the live food they are growing faster than any batch I have ever had before! Their size today at 5 days of free swimming is bigger then my other batches at 2 weeks!

I have tried a few different things for a divider before. With Ram fry it has to be very tight along the sides. There cannot be a single gap or they will swim right past it!


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## Dizzcat (Aug 26, 2008)

I found the secret to growing Ram fry! :dancing: :dancing: I have been feeding them live bbs about 4 times a day. These fry are now on day 11 of free swimming and are the size of my past fry at 3 weeks! I cannot get over the difference! Out of the original 40 or so eggs, I still have about 35 fry alive and thriving.

I have been making little video's of my fry as they grow. 
Here is a cute video of my fry. 

http://s530.photobucket.com/albums/dd35 ... a62858.pbr


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## Isis24 (Dec 10, 2008)

Thanks, I always enjoy watching your fry videos!! :fish:


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## Ape-Fish (Jul 1, 2006)

Cool! :thumb:


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Hey *Dizzcat*,

I had great success with raising my dorsigera fry with three feedings of BBS per day. One thing I did was to mix in some powdered food with each feeding. By week three I was able to change from mixing in powdered food to mixing in mini-flake food, and by week six I had stoped feeding BBS and they were feeding solely on dry foods. I had no problems with weening the fry off BBS onto dry foods this way.


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## Dizzcat (Aug 26, 2008)

Thanks for the compliments people! 

DFF, I have been thinking about starting to add the First Bites to the bbs in the next couple days to get them used to flake foods too. Your idea is a good one to mix it up! I will try that. Thanks!


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## Dizzcat (Aug 26, 2008)

*OH WOW!!! YAY!! YIPPY!! * :dancing: =D>

I just moved my month old Rams to a 10 gallon to grow out. They have been in the divided side with the dad all this time. I knew I had many more survive than ever before but had no clue how many more! It was hard to really count because I could only see the ones that came to the front of the tank. I counted 31!! I have never had more than 8 make it past the 2 week mark before! This is awesome!!!! They are also 3 times bigger than all my other fry at 1 month of age too! 

The place they have been was fairly bare, with just one Amazon sword and a tiny chunk of java moss. I set up my 10 gallon with some small plants I took from my planted tank and a small piece of driftwood that has java moss on it. My past juvies have always loved to nibble on that java moss and hang out under the wood, so thought I would give it to them. They LOVE it in there! Exploring every nook and cranny! Buzzing back and forth along the length of it. Right now they are all in the corner closest to me watching me type :lol:

I am just amazed at the difference the live bbs made! Now I know the secret to raising a good amount of fry. Now to get them to eat flake foods. I have tried mixing it in with the bbs but they just ignore it. My LFS suggested I get brine shrimp flakes and try that.

I am *REALLY* pleased with this batch, can you tell?? :dancing: :dancing:


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