# Troubles with the Mighty Jack Dempsey (Pics included)



## qwertmonkey (Jan 15, 2009)

Hello all! I hope everyone is having a pleasant evening...
I have a 30 gallon tank with 2 full grown Jack Dempsey cichlids and a 4'' pleco. Now before everyone starts telling me the tank is way too small, I would like to say I am well aware of that. I rescued these guys from an abandoned apartment. The tank had never been cleaned, was only 50% filled with water, had about 30 3'' youths (their offspring), and a pleco that was at least 12'' long. Trust me, they're living in much better accommodations than they were. The filter is actually for a 55 gallon tank, so their water is extra clean. The other addition is an aerator. The hose goes to a stone inside of the white rock looking think on the left. It just creates tiny bubbles that come out of the top.

Now, down to the questions. Firstly, my water is cloudy. I've tried everything. First, I tried increasing the frequency of water changes/vac gravel. Instead of once every 10 days, I was doing it ever 2 or 3. That didn't help, so I tried reducing the frequency of cleanings. That still had no effect. Then, I tried adding extra carbon to the filters. Still, no effect. Finally, as a last resort, I tried these fizzing waffers called water buddies. They're supposed to clear up cloudy water. No effect. I tested my water and it's absolutely perfect. It was slightly hard, (just barely) but that's it. It didn't used to be cloudy. It used to be perfectly crystal clear. The fish have been acting normal and appear healthy. They also eat very well. (They're actually chewing in the attached pics.)

My second question is why wont the female lay her eggs? She has twice before in my care and there were 30+ fry in the tank when I adopted them. It's been about 6 months since she laid eggs last. When they laid their eggs before, I did not encourage it at all. There was only 1 plant in the tank. They just dug some rocks out of the way in a corner and put them there. Now, I have a whole sanctuary for them to be comfortable. It's surrounded by plants with a makeshift cave. I also placed pieces of tile in the corners to try to encourage them. I've also recently tried feeding them live food every 10 days or so. (Feeder goldfish observed for a week or so.) I have a feeling they aren't in the mood because of the water. Or could it be the pleco? He's been there since the beginning so probably not.

So, I'm out of ideas. If anyone has some insight, it's much appreciated.) The pictures attached were just taken. The male and female are both eating. The "Love pad" is on the right.

Thank you for taking the time to read this!
William


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## teqvet (Mar 24, 2008)

Like you said, it is a small tank. Possibly by adding the extra objects in the tank, you've decreased their swimming space causing them to be uncomfortable and not wanting to spawn/breed?

Generally speaking, adding things to the tank, such as to clear the cloudy water generally isnt a good idea. What are the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate readings currently?


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## qwertmonkey (Jan 15, 2009)

teqvet said:


> Like you said, it is a small tank. Possibly by adding the extra objects in the tank, you've decreased their swimming space causing them to be uncomfortable and not wanting to spawn/breed?
> 
> Generally speaking, adding things to the tank, such as to clear the cloudy water generally isnt a good idea. What are the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate readings currently?


I don't have any way of getting the exact levels for you, but I took my water to my LFS and they said everything looked perfect. Also, I just recently added the decorations. It was cloudy before I added them.

Thank you for your reply!


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## klumsyninja (Aug 14, 2008)

An ammonia spike could cause a bacteria bloom which in turn would cloud the water. The ammonia could disappear right afterwards and still leave the cloudy water thoough. It can often transition into Green Water shortly after being cloudy water too. Often water changes can feed the bacteria bloom. I'd kill your lights for a couple of days and see if that doesn't clear up your water. Go back to your regular WC schedule.. either way it should clear itself up in a couple weeks..

just my experience.. no expert or anything.


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## qwertmonkey (Jan 15, 2009)

klumsyninja said:


> An ammonia spike could cause a bacteria bloom which in turn would cloud the water. The ammonia could disappear right afterwards and still leave the cloudy water thoough. It can often transition into Green Water shortly after being cloudy water too. Often water changes can feed the bacteria bloom. I'd kill your lights for a couple of days and see if that doesn't clear up your water. Go back to your regular WC schedule.. either way it should clear itself up in a couple weeks..
> 
> just my experience.. no expert or anything.


I hate to shoot down every idea, but I've been down that road. I didn't even used to turn the lights on. I only turned them on every few days or so only for an hour or so. Just recently I hooked them up to a timer to come on for 13 hours then off for 11. The cloudiness has been here for probably 4 months now, so it began when there was very little light getting into the aquarium. I have been back on my normal water changed for about 3 weeks. (20% every 10 days or so.)


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## Lively (Jan 13, 2009)

I had this problem before. Never figured out what caused it. The best guess I had was something in the substrate - what ever I had never hurt my fish. I ended up fixing it by accident, had to move the tank and when I moved it I put different substrate down - just big river rock on a the bottom of the glass. Of course, it was a almost a 100% water change with a risky "use the old filter" cycle. It was an emergency move... and miracles of miracles I lost no fish and the water stayed clear.

What's the temp in your tank? Mine quit laying for awhile, turned out that the heater was unplugged! Within a week of having the temp back at near 80 they started clearing off a rock...mine seem fussy about laying eggs anyway though.


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## qwertmonkey (Jan 15, 2009)

Lively said:


> I had this problem before. Never figured out what caused it. The best guess I had was something in the substrate - what ever I had never hurt my fish. I ended up fixing it by accident, had to move the tank and when I moved it I put different substrate down - just big river rock on a the bottom of the glass. Of course, it was a almost a 100% water change with a risky "use the old filter" cycle. It was an emergency move... and miracles of miracles I lost no fish and the water stayed clear.
> 
> What's the temp in your tank? Mine quit laying for awhile, turned out that the heater was unplugged! Within a week of having the temp back at near 80 they started clearing off a rock...mine seem fussy about laying eggs anyway though.


I would love to put new rock down. The stuff down there now came with the tank. It's a mixture of black, white, blue, grey, and pink. What if I save most of the water in a few large buckets when I change the substrate? Would that be ok? The heater is doing well. I even kicked it up a few degrees hoping to encourage spawing. It's at about 79Âº at the moment.


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## LJ (Sep 12, 2007)

qwertmonkey said:


> I don't have any way of getting the exact levels for you, but I took my water to my LFS and they said everything looked perfect.


Get a testing kit and try to get us your water parameters. Or take a sample to the LFS and get them to give you exact numbers.

Does your tank receive light from that window back there? Putting a background on would diminish some of that extra light.

When you change water, do you penetrate deep into the gravel bed and vacuum?


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## qwertmonkey (Jan 15, 2009)

LJ said:


> qwertmonkey said:
> 
> 
> > I don't have any way of getting the exact levels for you, but I took my water to my LFS and they said everything looked perfect.
> ...


I will get my water tested again and try to get exact levels. I'm sure some light does creep in. I keep the blinds closed but I've been wanting a background for some time now. I'm just too lazy to go get one! I also dig as deep as I can into the gravel. When I'm finished, It looked like a ski run covered in moguls!

I'll post the numbers as soon as I can. Thank you!


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## Lively (Jan 13, 2009)

I honestly don't know. We were forced to do amost a full water change - not something that is generally an accepted practice - it was an emergency the tank was damaged. We moved the fish to a larger tank but there wasn't enough water to fill the tank or substrate to cover the bottom. That was the reason we just used large rock. I have no idea if it was the almost full water change or the removal of the substrate that fixed the problem.

Your pics look exactly like what my water looked like and I did everything you did to fix it as well, right down to the fizzy tablets that did nothing. My water tested perfect - I had a little chem set to check it.

To be safe, I'd just remove substrate to start with and see if it clears up on its own. Doing what we did was a **** shoot and we got lucky the good bioload on the filters was enough to keep the water cycled.


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## Bignick (Dec 20, 2008)

Most people don;t like to add anything to their water to clear it up.

I personally like crystal clear. It bonds to particulate matter, making it big enough for the filters to pick it up. With all the water changes you have needed to do, have you been using a water conditioner for each one? What about a bacterial supplement?

If you can get your water clear by doing water changes that is the best answer, but I have had good luck with crystal clear.

Another thing, you said that your filter is for a 55, but do you know the GPH that the filter pushes? You should have at least 300 gallons per hour in a 30 gallon tank.


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## qwertmonkey (Jan 15, 2009)

Bignick said:


> Most people don;t like to add anything to their water to clear it up.
> 
> I personally like crystal clear. It bonds to particulate matter, making it big enough for the filters to pick it up. With all the water changes you have needed to do, have you been using a water conditioner for each one? What about a bacterial supplement?
> 
> ...


I'll run up to the pet store and try some of that. I've tried the water changes with water conditioner with no avail. The filter is a Whisper 60 which from what I understand pushes 330 GPH.


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## Jeff W (Jan 4, 2009)

I noticed you said you are doing 20% water changes every 9 or 10 days. That really isn't much of a water change in a 30 gallon tank with 2 large fish I would do 50% every 4 od 5 days. Use aged water. fill a couple of plastic tubs and let it sit for a couple days. Add some Prime. Give it a couple of days and do your water change. After a couple of water changes it should start to improve.


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## Lively (Jan 13, 2009)

Another thought I had - why not see if you can swing a bigger tank. You can get used ones pretty cheap on craigs list or via you local paper classifieds. In the long run it will be cheaper than having to continually buy chemicals to keep water clear, if they even work. I'm not diehard against chemicals but in this situation I think you need to fix the cause.

I really do think it's in your gravel, you said it was filthy when you found the tank and unless you dumped it all out and rinsed OCD style... you wouldn't get everything. Thinking back to my issue with cloudy water my brother-in-law was taking care of the tank for a year prior and it was pretty yucky. I believe water changes were topping up from evaporation.


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## qwertmonkey (Jan 15, 2009)

Jeff W said:


> I noticed you said you are doing 20% water changes every 9 or 10 days. That really isn't much of a water change in a 30 gallon tank with 2 large fish I would do 50% every 4 od 5 days. Use aged water. fill a couple of plastic tubs and let it sit for a couple days. Add some Prime. Give it a couple of days and do your water change. After a couple of water changes it should start to improve.


I thought about that but someone I talked to said 50% would be too much. It' removes too much of the "good' bacteria. If they were wrong, I can definitely do that. Im not a big fan of chemicals anyways.


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## qwertmonkey (Jan 15, 2009)

Lively said:


> Another thought I had - why not see if you can swing a bigger tank. You can get used ones pretty cheap on craigs list or via you local paper classifieds. In the long run it will be cheaper than having to continually buy chemicals to keep water clear, if they even work. I'm not diehard against chemicals but in this situation I think you need to fix the cause.
> 
> I really do think it's in your gravel, you said it was filthy when you found the tank and unless you dumped it all out and rinsed OCD style... you wouldn't get everything. Thinking back to my issue with cloudy water my brother-in-law was taking care of the tank for a year prior and it was pretty yucky. I believe water changes were topping up from evaporation.


I also thought about that. I will be heading off to college in about 6 months. I can't take an aquarium with me so it will be left here for my father to take care of. I haven't ruled it out yet, but I'm hesitant because I don't want to leave him with too much to take care of.


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## Bignick (Dec 20, 2008)

A bigger tank will give you more leeway, and actually be easier to take care of.

I missed the part about the gravel. If the gravel was filthy, you are going to have a hard time fixing the problem.

Here's what I would do:

Do a fifty percent water change.

Take out your substrate, and clean it. At this point maybe need to boil it. If you boil it, rinse it before you put it back in, as the pigment may come off the colored gravel, also will help to cool it. Put the gravel back in before you add the water back for your water change. You may wanna do like 30% before you remove the gravel, then the last twenty after you remove it. Add in your conditioner and Bacteria supplement. You may have to do daily water changes of like 20% til the water comes clear. I would also decrease the time you keep the lights on until the water becomes clearer.

There are usually two different types of water conditioner, depending if you are on public water or city. Make sure you get the right one. You may wanna Check your filter cartridges also. Are they getting dirty too fast? You can rinse them a few times, just be aware that this doesn't do much for the carbon.


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## Lively (Jan 13, 2009)

After I made the suggestion about changing tanks I took a look at craigs list... guy around here wants to trade a 200 gallon salt ready tank for an engagement ring... I am sorely tempted! My girls might get mad at me for trading their dad's ring - but they will get over it! lol

Bignick is right, a big tank is much easier to keep up. I spent more time on my first 20 gallon setup than I do on my current 55 gallon and the water is almost always stable. Plus, it sounds like you don't mind your fishies breeding, you can use your current one for the fry or a hospital tank.

*Laughing* This is funny because this is how I ended going from "keeping a fish tank" to being an obsessive hobbyist!


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## Jeff W (Jan 4, 2009)

Most every one i know do at least 50% every week to ten days.I have been doing that for years.

Jeff


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## hyposalinity (Apr 30, 2008)

I'd get a better filter, and that looks like a 29 gallon show, not a 30 gallon long.


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## Riceburner (Sep 3, 2008)

I do a 50% every 10 days or so. My JDs like having overhead cover and the plec in their tank eat their eggs.


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## LJ (Sep 12, 2007)

Bignick said:


> Take out your substrate, and clean it. At this point maybe need to boil it. If you boil it, rinse it before you put it back in, as the pigment may come off the colored gravel, also will help to cool it. Put the gravel back in before you add the water back for your water change. You may wanna do like 30% before you remove the gravel, then the last twenty after you remove it. Add in your conditioner and Bacteria supplement.


I'd use caution when changing the substrate. I've never changed substrate without completely breaking the tank down. While the tank is still in use, it seems like the changing of substrate should occur over a period of time and in small amounts, instead of all at once. Removing and steralizing all of the substrate at once, combined with removing a large volume of water and the bio-load in your tank, seems likely to lead to a large ammonia spike and cycle that could harm your fish.

If you switch your gravel out, search the forums for threads on safe methods for doing so. I know I've seen them on here before.


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## StillaZilla (Aug 22, 2008)

From what I understand, the good bacteria is in the filter medium, not the water. I've done many 50% changes, and a few time in an emergency, done close to 80%. Good luck.


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## Lively (Jan 13, 2009)

LJ said:


> I'd use caution when changing the substrate. I've never changed substrate without completely breaking the tank down. While the tank is still in use, it seems like the changing of substrate should occur over a period of time and in small amounts, instead of all at once. Removing and steralizing all of the substrate at once, combined with removing a large volume of water and the bio-load in your tank, seems likely to lead to a large ammonia spike and cycle that could harm your fish.
> 
> If you switch your gravel out, search the forums for threads on safe methods for doing so. I know I've seen them on here before.


The problem with doing small amounts of the substrate is *if* it is muck caught up in the rock that is causing the problem small cleanings won't fix the problem. As long as monkey doesn't clean the filter at the same time he should not have an issue with an ammonia spike.

I was having issues with a new tank setup - it simply would not cycle and I needed it stable, fast. I did water changes, I used Amquel to no avail. I couldn't get nitrites to go below the really toxic to fish levels! I did an 80% water change and put a used filter from a stable tank in it's filter and the water stablized and has stayed that way.


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## Lively (Jan 13, 2009)

I just read this about where bacteria live.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=186803


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## discusfreak2005 (Apr 11, 2005)

I know this doesn't sound like it would work, but it wouldn't hurt for you to try it. When a tank I set up at school wouldn't clear up and the levels were fine and the lights weren't the issue, I took half of the lid off for about a week and it cleared up without any problems since.


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## chc (Jul 28, 2004)

Could it just be that big tufa rock disintegrating?


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## jefejt (Mar 10, 2005)

It could very well be something in the substrate. If you swap it out it isn't really an issue. I've done full tank changes before without issue. The is very minimal bacterial that live in the water, so a 50% water change shouldn't be an issue. The reason people warn against big water changes is because a possible change in parameters. Assuming you change water from the same place your pH and things will all be similar, and you really only need to match temp. Even 100% water changes aren't as bad as people think, as most beneficial bacteria live in your filters. I have done multiple 100% water changes(mostly while moving tanks) and have never lost a fish. You have to keep the fish warm, add similar temp water from the same source and make sure your filter media doesn't dry up.

If you do plan on changing your substrate try sand. It's cheap ($5ish at Home Depot), looks more natural and JDs love it. Good luck.


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