# africans and central americans together?? why not??



## newguyinillinois (May 1, 2011)

I am kinda new to this, but I have a beautiful 220 ful of cichlids. africans and central americans together. Why is this such a problem? As long as the water chemistry and dietary needs are the same whats the problem? The fish dont know any difference. Explainations please.


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## Chromedome52 (Jul 25, 2009)

To start, you left out a pile of information: How many fish, what species, how mature, how long have they been together, and how is the tank decorated. I can point out that the variables in each and every one of those categories might allow co-existence temporarily or even permanently on occasion. Generally, however, it does not work long term for two primary reasons.

A lot of people put a bunch of young fish into a tank and say, "See? They get along." Then a few months to a couple of years later, war breaks out, and they say, "They were getting along just fine, what happened?" What usually happens is sexual maturity. Most male Cichlids don't establish hard territories until they are old enough to make whoopi, then the aggression steps up and all heck breaks loose.

The second part of this is that CA Cichlids and "African" (I assume you mean Malawian or other Rift Lake species, even though those are not all the African Cichlids) establish territories differently. Mbuna males are singular territory holders, while CA Cichlids often work as pairs. The signals they use to warn trespassers are also different; Mbuna turn sideways and wave, while most CA do head on gill flares. If the other fish doesn't react "properly" to the signals, it can cause a straight out attack.

So what I will do is wish you luck, and say goodbye. Come back in two years and then tell us what fish you still have alive compared to what you started with. A 220 is a good size tank, and the larger the tank the better your odds, but I would be shocked if nothing gets eliminated by aggressive activity.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

As chromedome points out, it really does depend on a lot of variables. What particular species are being combined and size of tank, in particular are very significant. Though i do not agree that it generally does not work out or work well.....been doing so for over 3 decades and works fine for me. And I keep primarily very aggressive species. I've experienced far more aggreassion problems amongst the same species (conspecific aggression) as well as between rival male CA, over time.Have had more aggression problems between large male Tilapines and male CA competing for supremacy of the tank, then i have had between CA and mbuna. Not to say that there is never aggression between the 2 (CA and mbuna), just generally not as frequent nor as serious as some of the other aggression i have witnessed when keeping aggressive species.

Generally in the past, i kept a 'token' mbuna in a primarily CA tank. One or 2. Recently (the last 3 years) I have kept larger groups of mbuna and have experienced very high conspecific aggression amongst them. My attempt to keep a larger group of auratus in a 125 gal. was a complete failure......they fought, chased excessively and killed each other off, until I am now left with 1 auratus. My male crabo killed a female, and chases the subordinates quite a bit at times. Far worse then what generally occurs between the CA and mbuna.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

Whether the fish end up killing each other is almost beside the point. While CAs and Africans share similar waters in nature, their behaviors are different. One of the reasons we keep cichlids is their behavior and mixing the two types messes this up. I have seen more than a few tanks where the different types co-exist, but the fish don't behave the same as they do in tanks of like types.


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## Mbunagasm (Mar 22, 2012)

I predict you will have to remove a couple troublemakers over time but I have mixed convicts and mbuna with very little inter species aggression except during spawning behaviors. I did remove my adult convicts to make room for more africans but I deem the mixing a success. I took out the adult male convict because the female terrorized him. Then the female began to lay eggs, upside down on a elevated flat rock very cool to watch. One of her older male offspring that I couldent catch appeared to be fertilizing the eggs. The adult female defended the perimeter of the cave but never chased anything further than that. Still I did not want more babies so I took her out. The tiny male did his best to protect the eggs but there were mbuna in the tank 4x his size and mbuna like fish eggs, some very cool fights but nobody got hurt and the eggs are gone so no problem.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

I have a lot of experience mixing CA's and African cichlids. It can work very well, but we do need more specifics on your tank.

In my personal opinion, some African cichlids can make better tankmates for CA's than other CA cichlids. Precisely because they have different breeding/territorial signals. But you have to do it right, not just randomly mix them.

Bernie, Melanochromis Auratus and Pseudotropheus Crabro are two of the more aggressive Malawi species commonly available. I'm not surprised that you had problems.

M. Auratus is a typical aggressive mbuna species (on a 1 to 5 scale, I'd rate them a 4)...you need to keep a very high ratio of females to one male, and have another couple of species with equal temperament--but different appearance and genus. I always had good luck keeping them with P. Lombardoi (Kenyi) and Labeotropheus Trewavasae with one male to at least 7 or 8 females.

Though P. Crabro is commonly kept with an mbuna, and considered one by most people...in my opinion, it shouldn't really be considered one. It is a parasite cleaning species that lives in the vicinity of large predatory Bagrus Sp. catfish. The cichlid is also an opportunistic predator on the catfish's eggs and fry during it's breeding season. I've kept single specimens in mixed mbuna tanks, but they always became hyper-dominant...and they aren't colorful either. So I re-homed them. On the same 1 to 5 aggressiveness scale, P. Crabro is a 5.


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## bcshepard (Sep 20, 2011)

the hair salon I go to keeps a big old oscar with several types of fish.. jack dempseys and a few misc african's.. no peacocks or haps etc.. just mnuna. They are the only thing largely available in local stores. Anyways.. they seemingly get along but I have no idea what PH she keeps them at.. And I would have to say that the oscar must be a very chilled out fish not to go after them.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

oldcatfish said:


> Bernie, Melanochromis Auratus and Pseudotropheus Crabro are two of the more aggressive Malawi species commonly available. I'm not surprised that you had problems.
> 
> M. Auratus is a typical aggressive mbuna species (on a 1 to 5 scale, I'd rate them a 4)...you need to keep a very high ratio of females to one male, and have another couple of species with equal temperament--but different appearance and genus. I always had good luck keeping them with P. Lombardoi (Kenyi) and Labeotropheus Trewavasae with one male to at least 7 or 8 females.
> 
> Though P. Crabro is commonly kept with an mbuna, and considered one by most people...in my opinion, it shouldn't really be considered one. It is a parasite cleaning species that lives in the vicinity of large predatory Bagrus Sp. catfish. The cichlid is also an opportunistic predator on the catfish's eggs and fry during it's breeding season. I've kept single specimens in mixed mbuna tanks, but they always became hyper-dominant...and they aren't colorful either. So I re-homed them. On the same 1 to 5 aggressiveness scale, P. Crabro is a 5.


Yes, I am well aware that auratus and crabro are aggressive species :lol: had auratus since the mid '70's and my brother had, had them much before. What is new to me is larger groups of the species......maybe i didn't have enough but i never got there because the adults would chase the 2"+ youngsters rediculously around the tank as soon as they would come out of hiding :roll:, and they killed them off!!
Crabro is a new species for me; had them over 2 years now. They have become my favourite mbuna. My point is that, just like CA, any aggression problems are generally far worse amongst their own kind then they are between the CA and mbuna, by a longshot! And no, I have absolutely no intention of rehoming them....there is a few scraps over time with salvini, convicts and blackbelt but they are put in their place. At least in my tanks, things working out well, generally means that the CA have to be dominant over the mbuna.....the reverse may not work out so well, IMO.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

BillD said:


> Whether the fish end up killing each other is almost beside the point.


In what way is that 'beside the point'? Is there worse or more unsuccessfull then when one fish kills another??

Aquarists mix all kinds of fish. Tetras, barbs, catfish, BN plecos with CA!!! :lol: ......and still to this day, still make a big deal about mixing there precious rift lake cichlids with CA . Many aquarists are the worst of hypocrites! A lot of words and a lot of BS. I have been mixing the 2 for over 3 decades now, to know that every single pathetic reason people come up with against doing so is total BS. 
Fine, You want to keep fish that come from the same waters in the same tank, then be consistent with your ideal..... you can`t keep convicts with FM, nor JD!. Let alone a BN pleco with any CA.Not to mention any fish from the same waters nver spends their lifetime with each other in the confines of an aquarium space. It`s a a glass box, pretend otherwise if you like.Nor does any fish get a free meal in the wild :lol: Fish dont even `make a living`in captivity...we provide it for them. Huge distinction , IMO, that has little resemblence to how fish live in the wild!


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Quote from Bernie "At least in my tanks, things working out well, generally means that the CA have to be dominant over the mbuna.....the reverse may not work out so well, IMO."

---I agree 100% with this. The CA's really need to be the dominant fish.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

bernie comeau said:


> BillD said:
> 
> 
> > Whether the fish end up killing each other is almost beside the point.
> ...


Since fish of the same type (especially conspecifics) will kill each other, I consider it beside the point in this discussion. As I mentioned, I have seen many tanks over the last 40 years that mixed the two continents, and were what you would call "successful"; the fish didn't kill each other. I even had a few once upon a time. I will stick by my statement that mixing doesn't allow for natural behavior. I will agree that the confines of an aquarium, limit true natural behavior in many instances, and really, people can do what they want. The question here was why not, and I expressed my opinion based on what I have seen. What I have also observed since joining a fish club 20 years ago, is that the really advanced fish keepers, some of whom I would label as expert, don't do it because they have observed the same thing. These people have far more experience and expertise than I could ever hope to have.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Quote "What I have also observed since joining a fish club 20 years ago, is that the really advanced fish keepers, some of whom I would label as expert, don't do it because they have observed the same thing."

--Going by this model, you have to set up the aquarium as a biotope. For those unfamiliar with the term, that means having the aquarium decorated like a section of the river/lake where the cichlid is from, and the other occupants are found naturally with them too. Anything else, and the behavior observed won't be natural. The more you stray from this, the less natural that it will be.

In my opinion, this severely limits you as far as tank setup and inhabitants.


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## bbortko (Nov 20, 2011)

I'm on the hunt for my first Africans at the moment so I have no first hand experience but know of several hobbyists that are extremely knowledgeable and experienced who have had great success using mbuna in ca tanks. Mixing the 2 negates the biotope model that many try to follow but that doesn't mean it doesn't work. A lot of people like to get on their high horses about parameters even the ca and lake Malawi parameters overlap a great deal, then again if you track these people stocking suggestions they usually have no regards to noncichlid water parameters so even though its inaccurate it still fuels the myth.


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## Steffano2 (Jan 11, 2007)

I'm from the school of thought that the fish never read the book. When I was heavy duty into cichlids, 40 plus tanks, I would keep all sorts of species of cichlids together with no problems and even had them successfully breeding at the same time. Example: Neolamprologus buescheri breeding pair kept in the same tank with a breeding pair of Mesonauta insignis. They both bred regularly and never a fight between the pairs, oh and they shouldn't have been mixed according to the books. FYI, I did nothing special to the water for either species.

I always get a tad nervous around the purist and biotope folks. I'm not directing this statement to anyone person. I find that these tanks are much more self fulfilling to the owners then the fish and generally speaking they are by the book fish keepers which is great but not for me. So with that said to each their own and enjoy your cichlids whether you like to stay in the lines or color outside of the line.

These debates are always interesting to read b/c just like the fish we keep their owners come through with the same attitude: feisty, aggressive, and highly passionate people. I guess that's the reason we keep cichlids.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I'm with BillD, I'm after observing the most natural behavior possible with my cichilids.

The reason non-cichlids are added with no regard to their origin is because they do not inhibit the cichlids behavior. The cichlids are the centerpiece so as far as I am concerned anything that does not inhibit them is fair game in my opinion.

With that said, it does not ruffle my feathers that people mix different fish. A lot of people are not after natural behaviors or anything deeper than just "pretty fish", so if that is what the OP is after go for it.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

oldcatfish said:


> Quote "What I have also observed since joining a fish club 20 years ago, is that the really advanced fish keepers, some of whom I would label as expert, don't do it because they have observed the same thing."
> 
> --Going by this model, you have to set up the aquarium as a biotope. For those unfamiliar with the term, that means having the aquarium decorated like a section of the river/lake where the cichlid is from, and the other occupants are found naturally with them too. Anything else, and the behavior observed won't be natural. The more you stray from this, the less natural that it will be.
> 
> In my opinion, this severely limits you as far as tank setup and inhabitants.


Indeed, this practice does offer limitations, and biotopes are great although difficult to do in practice. Some are in fact rather boring as well. I tend to favour species tanks, even though they may not be actual "biotopes", or even remotely close. So, I don't personally see this as a limitation, but, rather, a good thing. This is just my opinion, and we all have our own reasons for being in the hobby.


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## newguyinillinois (May 1, 2011)

Thanks for the support folks. Im not even gona bother giving a species list but I got ca and africans together. Big ones small ones and all in betweens. And the only real aggresion I have had to deal with was with a mating pair of red zebras. they mated and then the bigger one killed the smaller one. got four fry though. All is well.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

IMO it's a question of taste. For some people, mixing CA/SA with any rift lake cichlid is analagous to choosing bright flourescent pink gravel for the substrate of an aquarium.

That the so called 'biotope' aquariums typically have more 'natural' behavoir then other tanks, is really dependant on how much the aquarists likes to pretend, IMO. The very same thing as any other tank......none of the fish actually make there own living, we feed them and provide for them. None of these fish (even if they actually do come from the same lake, river, lagoon) spend there lifetime together, 24/7 365 days a year in the confines of an aquarium space. 
Not always a wise choice, especially for very aggressive species, to stock fish that will be most competitive and most aggressive towards each other, when they live in a small glass box and have no way to run away from each other. Cichlids interact with the non-cichlids.....so the arguement that some how the prescence of non-cichlid fish that do not come from the same waters has no affect on there behavoir while mixing cichlids from different waters will some how adversly affect 'naturel' behavoir, doesn't make any sense to me.

As a display tank, especially public aquarium (zoos, ect.), I see the point of a biotope tank. Makes for a better display. But for your average aquarists, keeping aggressive species in small tanks, at least considering other options for potential CA tankmates makes sense to me, and is often more practical then stocking a tankfull of fish that are the most serious competitors.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I keep a variety of fish, "dithers" as we call them are responded too in pretty much the same way by all of them. The cichlids occasionally chase them and defend when spawning. You can look deeper into it if you like, but overall tetras, danios, rasboras, ect basically do not affect behavior much in my experience.

To say you don't get more natural behavior with biotope type tanks is silly. There is a huge difference between a group of thorichthys or geophagus versus a tank with a mix and match of several medium to large cichlids. Those large tanks with 5-6 large growing cichlids are far from natural with their forced hierarchies, no breeding, and all of the fish just hanging out with the occasional fuss. On the other hand, in my lightly stocked tanks with more natural fish selections I get to see a whole range of behaviors that are natural. Whats not natural about courtship, spawning, and fry care? No, our glass cages will never allow fish to be completely natural, but they can allow you peeks at natural behavior if you stock in a way that allows it.

Again, not bashing anybody else as we all have different taste. My taste just happens to be seeing little scenes from nature so I try to stock my tanks with that goal in mind.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

ahud said:


> I keep a variety of fish, "dithers" as we call them are responded too in pretty much the same way by all of them. The cichlids occasionally chase them and defend when spawning. You can look deeper into it if you like, but overall tetras, danios, rasboras, ect basically do not affect behavior much in my experience.
> 
> To say you don't get more natural behavior with biotope type tanks is silly. There is a huge difference between a group of thorichthys or geophagus versus a tank with a mix and match of several medium to large cichlids. Those large tanks with 5-6 large growing cichlids are far from natural with their forced hierarchies, no breeding, and all of the fish just hanging out with the occasional fuss. On the other hand, in my lightly stocked tanks with more natural fish selections I get to see a whole range of behaviors that are natural. Whats not natural about courtship, spawning, and fry care? No, our glass cages will never allow fish to be completely natural, but they can allow you peeks at natural behavior if you stock in a way that allows it.


 :roll: :lol:

let's see some examples. size of tank, what species, how many years and some pics and video. i can do that, as i have documented my fish fairly well for the past 5 years. including lengths and weights. I know what has happened and where each and everyone of my fish has gone!
To say that you "get you don't get more natural behavoir form a bitope tanks is silly", I beg to differ!. So how many thousands of hours of observation and video is there for CA cichlids in there actual habitat? Not much :lol: Been around CA cichlids for over 40 years to know that keeping them with each other is often far worse then keeping them with mbuna! And I have the thousands apon thousands of hours of observation to know what i am talking about.


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## Adrian101 (Jan 24, 2011)

For i think the first time ever i have to disagree with you Bernie, i think what ahud is saying is that if you keep a group of geos in a biotype tank you will see something similar to their natural behaviour, throw a yellow lab and kenyi in with them and their behaviour will be totally different. A bio type is not the same as natural behaviour but its a lot closer than mixing fish from all over the place. I can see the benefits of both set ups.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Adrian101 said:


> if you keep a group of geos in a biotype tank you will see something similar to their natural behaviour, throw a yellow lab and kenyi in with them and their behaviour will be totally different.


Of course because maybe a yellow lab is too aggressive for some geos, let alone a kenyi. But maybe some kind of less aggressive peacock might be a good mix (??).... never tried it so i can't say. I know some geos don't do well with CA and some pecocks don't do well with aggressive mbuna(at least in general), :lol: becuase i have first hand experience in the past, to see and know that.


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## BigJag (Sep 26, 2011)

I just love reading posts like this, it always seems to bring out heated debate. opcorn: As for me personally, I don't like to mix them because I love seeing their unique personalities in a natural setting. Their behavior is completely different when mixed. I love all the different types of personalities, so I keep SA, Central, and African Cichlids, but in seperate tanks. But to each his own and its really personal preference I guess.


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## newguyinillinois (May 1, 2011)

folks its not a natural setting. Its a glass box in our homes. to me its like saying the zoo is a natural setting for large animals.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

I mix them, and it's for a specific reason.

Large, very aggressive CA cichlids are hard to keep with each other long-term...at least, I haven't had a lot of luck with it. I'm talking Red Devils, BB's, etc.

And I personally find wet-pet tanks boring (I've done it many times) after awhile. With large, aggressive CA's--they'll kill each other, or at least regularly squabble. But after a little time (when they get tired of trying to catch them), they tend to treat mbuna similar to dither fish. And if the tank is set-up correctly, the mbuna will leave the larger CA's alone. And if I also add schooling dithers, I end up with a heavily stocked, but relatively peaceful tank.

As for species and biotope tanks...I did that too. But, I like a lot of different cichlids. I used to have over 20 fairly large tanks---before I was married with children. Now, I have only 3...so I need to make the most of my limited space.

And by the way, I have a lot of experience with Malawi cichlids (also, some Victorian and Tanganyikans). I used to regularly sell fry to several LFS in the area. I've kept and bred most of the commonly available ones, and have owned some rare ones too. But even as much as I love Malawi setups, I find more personal satisfaction with the "mixed" tanks that I've had.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

bernie comeau said:


> ahud said:
> 
> 
> > I keep a variety of fish, "dithers" as we call them are responded too in pretty much the same way by all of them. The cichlids occasionally chase them and defend when spawning. You can look deeper into it if you like, but overall tetras, danios, rasboras, ect basically do not affect behavior much in my experience.
> ...


The only thing I would like to change about my statement is change the word biotope. I used the word incorrectly, rarely do I keep biotope tanks.

I don't think I have disagreed with you much. Centrals are hard on each other, that's why I hate those setups with 5-6 random centrals (Jack dempsey, Firemouth, ect, ect,). Mixing fish like that forces hierarchies, I'm sure you noticed them if you observe your tanks. Not my type of fish keeping, although I do not look down on those tanks.

One tank I really like is a 72x18x17 with 2m10f of apistogramma cacatuiodes. It has been running for less than a year, but the behaviors I get to observe are amazing. I like small growing cichlids in large tanks with appropriate dithers, if you do not believe you see more natural behaviors in these setups then you have not tried one. Up next for me is a 125g with a pair of cutteri and a pair of A. siquia Rio Cabayo with a handful of ameca splendens. I'm going to give keeping the two con types together a go, but I may end up with giving the cabayo the whole tank. Those are examples of what I mean when I used the term "biotope", but like I mentioned above it was a mistake to use that term. Basically all I try to do is keep community tanks that allow spawning and fry rearing. Sure beats a handful of random fish swimming around flaring at each other in my book.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

ahud said:


> One tank I really like is a 72x18x17 with 2m10f of apistogramma cacatuiodes.


I'm sure that is a great tank. But that is not heavyweight CA....... an apistogramma is not even the aggression level or space requirments of a small CA like the convict cichlid. Even my last 2 male cons did not co-exist much more then 3 years in a 6' X 2' X 2' before one of them had to be removed! No suprise to me, because that has often been my experience with male CA in the past...even the lightweights like cons don't always co-exist in that kind of space!


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## BigJag (Sep 26, 2011)

newguyinillinois said:


> folks its not a natural setting. Its a glass box in our homes. to me its like saying the zoo is a natural setting for large animals.


 Well ofcourse its not a natural setting completely. Unless they r in the wild, they will never be in their natural setting. Why not try to mimic their enviroment as much as possible, thats all im saying. IDC if anybody agrees with me, but if you produce AS CLOSE to a natural setting as possible uwill have a more natural behavior. People always twist things around. I think everyone here knows that no matter what you do to your tank, it is still a tank and not the wild, so lets get off the "its not natural" thing, we know! All we mean is mimic the fishes environment as close as possible and the more natural the fishes behavior. If thats not what your looking for in a tank, thats fine, to each his own. Nobody can tell somebody else how to run their tank, only give input on how they do.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Quote "All we mean is mimic the fishes environment as close as possible and the more natural the fishes behavior. If thats not what your looking for in a tank, thats fine, to each his own. Nobody can tell somebody else how to run their tank, only give input on how they do."

--True, but there are other factors too. Besides the environment we provide, behavior is somewhat dictated by the manner in which the fish were raised. I used to work in a LFS, and noticed that when moderately aggressive fish such as firemouths were kept with more aggressive species such as Texas cichlids...the firemouths learned to be much more aggressive than when kept on their own or other more passive fish. Also, tank raised fish in general are much less territorial than wild caught fish, and often don't show some of the natural behaviors. For example, I have had Aulonocara sp "peacocks" that were wild-caught which were extremely aggressive. They also would constantly pick in the substrate, just like they do in the wild. However, tank-raised fish in a virtually identical tank behaved much less aggressively, and sifted the substrate much less. I've observed similar behavioral differences with predatory cichlids too.

That being said, your best chances of observing the most natural behavior does depend a lot on setting up the tank similar to their natural environment.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I have never seen any difference between WC vs tanked raised, f1, ect.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Quote "I have never seen any difference between WC vs tanked raised, f1, ect."

---Unless the WC fish has been acclimated for awhile, you should notice a difference. Often the behavior is just a general nervousness or increased territorial behavior. But sometimes it's a little more extreme. Here are just a few examples of WC fish species that I've personally noticed a definite difference with.

1) Aulonocara sp Cobue Reef peacock male. In my 125g with other peacocks and haps...vigorously defended 1/2 of the tank against all non-Aulonocara intruders. Ignored all Aulonocara males of other species. Very particular about food and picked at substrate whenever he wasn't chasing one of the blue colored Haps. Other wild caught Aulonocara species that I've had displayed similar, though slightly less extreme behavior.

2) Stigmatochromis species male--very predatory. I lost him when he attempted to swallow a "Rubber" pleco that was too large.

3) Nimbochromis Venustus...I've owned both tank raised and wild caught ones. The wild caught ones displayed the infamous "possum" ambush strategy that the genus is known for. I've never observed it in any of my tank raised ones I've owned, though maybe others have.

4) Piranhas--used to be my passion before cichlids. I've owned several species. The wild-caught ones were much more aggressive and bold when in numbers, but even more easily startled if you moved quickly around their aquarium. You definitely did not want to put your hands in their tanks, and you got an adrenaline rush whenever you had to move one. Especially when you know that the fish could literally amputate a finger in a blink of the eye.

5) Sailfin Mollies--Like many aquarists, I was introduced to the hobby through relatives. Both my mother and uncle were long-time aquarists. My mom just had community tanks, but my uncle used to breed mollies. For years it was black mollies, but one year he decided to try a wild-caught strain. All of them were pugnacious, but one of the males that he received was too aggressive and kept killing off his other fish. He gave the fish to me...I put it in with juvenile CA cichlids. He tormented them until one of his tankmates grew large enough to kill him. It was a male Convict. Up until that point, the CA cichlids were all hunkered down in their caves.

6) I worked at a LFS when I was in my 20's. We used to get wild-caught freshwater fish on occasion, though usually only on special order. We did have a decent saltwater selection though. It was especially interesting trying to clean the tank of a large trigger fish that we had for awhile. I was glad that I wasn't working the day that he was purchased. It was a flashback to my piranha keeping days.

--I could name more, but most examples were not as extreme. Usually I just had to acclimate them to food, keep the water a little cleaner, and give them a little more space. Large WC CA cichlids usually become real glass bangers, once they are fully acclimated, even more so than tank-raised ones.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Interesting, great post. :thumb:

I suppose to I do notice slight differences. Mainly my wilds have been a lot more skittish.

Appreciate the examples.


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## kaphil (Aug 3, 2006)

Interesting debate. Experience tells me that, in general, cichlids are most aggressive to own sex, own species (especially males); own sex, closely related species (same genus); own species, opposite sex; closely related species, opposite sex; then more distantly related species.
Colouring can also be an issue.

There is no doubt that you can expect more aggression btw CA-CA, and mbuna-mbuna, than CA-mbuna. That in itself isn't a reason to recommend mixing, but for centrals it can mean you can get more fish in the tank by adding malawis, than you could if you went on adding more CAs, which may appeal to some. I have mixed for many years, and have also kept CA / african only. Absolutely right that the CAs should dominate, it is quite easy for the centrals life to be made uncomfortable simply by all the hyperactivity that mbuna bring, certainly it can inhibit their behaviour and breeding. Water can be an issue with mixing, but not really between CA and malawis. The other thing is that there is more to malawi than mbuna. I currently have a 450 litre tank shared by 5 maculipinnis and some utaka. By CA standards thorichthys are wimps and I would be loathe to put them with mbuna, but with the more mellow utaka it works fine.

Finally, I would have to say that IME, WC fish generally far more aggressive than your F99. I've noticed this particularly with mbuna - it can be a different league of aggression.


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## newguyinillinois (May 1, 2011)

WOW!!! I had know idea that I was opening such a can of worms with this thread. I just got a little criticism from my lfs when they came to deliver my 220. They one guy saw what was swimming in my old 120 and went off. told me I better get that devil out of there before he was the only one left. Wait let me back up. 
OK. here goes 1 10 inch red devil, 1 8 inch JD, 1 8 inch texas,2 6 inch kalingo, 1 6 inch bumble bee,1 8 inch comprecessips, 12 convicts,3 johani, 1 yellow lab,2 jewel cichlid, 2 rock kribensis.

Thats what I got in a 220. It has a lot of fake plants holy rock and a big piece of drift wood. I have had ZERO aggresion. I get some chasing and thats it. Only time i had a death was in a breeding pair of red zebras. Big one killed the little one. Now maybe that will change in the future. I got this tank in february. Remember I had all these fish in a 120 before I got it. They have all grown some since there move. 
Thanks so much for all of the input. Way more than I expected. Keep it goin folks. keeps me entertained.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

How about you keep updating us, I'm sure that will keep us entertained :lol: opcorn:


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## newguyinillinois (May 1, 2011)

K


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Quote " The other thing is that there is more to malawi than mbuna."

Very true. But most people don't have other Malawi's. They just purchase from the "mixed African cichlid" tank, and 95% of those will be mbuna. Or they buy juveniles--and the mbuna are much more colorful as juveniles. Also, for a novice cichlid keeper, it's much easier to successfully mix mbuna with CA's than other Malawi's with CA's. And for what it's worth, you can mix Victorians and Tanganyikans with Malawi's and CA's too...but that isn't something that I'd recommend to anyone that isn't very experienced with them.

I'd just like to clarify something to everyone--I'm not advocating that all of you should add mbuna to all of your CA tanks. It isn't right for everyone. I like biotope setups and I've seen some impressive wet-pet type setups. But for me, the mixed set-up is ideal. I can keep a variety of fish species in a relatively small amount of space--and my tanks are very enjoyable to me. But it is a common myth that you can't successfully mix CA's and African cichlids.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

BillD said:


> Since fish of the same type (especially conspecifics) will kill each other, I consider it beside the point in this discussion.


Yes, it is true, or often true, that "fish of the same type (especially conspecifics) will kill each other." But I fail to see why it's truth makes it beside the point :-? This is most often true of the very large aggressive CA.

If one seeks to avoid or limit killing in an aquarium, then it is most certainly is not beside the point. Or do you really think it's 'natural behavoir' for a species to kill it's own kind or even a closely related species for that matter? :lol: In the wild there is room to run away and spread out. There is nothing natural, what so ever, about sticking the most serious competitors into the small confines of an aquarium space for a lifetime.... they come together only for periods of time and their aggression (IMO) is probably part of their dispersal mechanism. Of course the reality is they don't actually 'make a living' in captivity so i supose they don't have to spread out to find enough food :lol: ....but then that is no different whether the tank is a 'biotope' or a mixed tank.

Some requirements in terms of set up, are needed for any species. But I doubt that the look of a tank to us humans has much to do with how a fish sees and experiences life in the confines of a tank. CA cichlids will be just as 'happy' with a flowerpot instead of drftwood. They do not care how unnatural the shelter is, looks or what it is made of. Just it's utility. The fact that it is a structure with one opening and protected on all other sides makes it most usefull. Generally, CA tanks are most often set up with a lot more shelter then their natural enviroment would provide....that is just the reality of being practical when trying to house these fish together. Keeping a pair of large aggressive CA cichlids often means breeding them through eggcrate devider or seperating them between spawns. Succesfully keeping them in a community tank usually means having outside threats in very close proximity and an abundance of calories in captivity keeping the female ready to spawn frequently enough......nothing really 'natural' about any of these set ups! Anyways, not too difficult tosetupa tank that will acommodate bot CA and mbuna.

No, I do not think that any and every tank where fish do not kill each other is '"successfull". But rather the reverse; it's certainly a measure of a lack of success when fish end up killing each other. Unless one thinks it is not something to try and avoid (?) or is 'natural' behavoir :lol:

Not a simple or easy matter to house aggressive CA, longterm. I agree with Old Catfish, mixing CA with mbuna is not for everyone. But i think it should at least be considered a viable option. To have a very heavily stocked tank is not the point, nor IMO, even desireable...but a certain number of fish to make a CA tank 'work' is quite often required. Contrary to what some think on this fourum, there is such a thing as 'understocking' a CA tank.....2-3 fish, even 4-5 is seldom enough, especially longterm with the more aggressive species. Mbuna is just one more option instead of trying to house more CA. IMO, sometimes it's a lot more practical then trying to pack too many CA into small space.


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## aggriffin3 (Aug 15, 2009)

Seeing that this is on the CA forum side and not the SA, its the reason nobody has brought up adding SA Cichlids to an African tank? 
I am only going to assume the aggression is similar among the large SA's as they are with larger CA's? If not, do SA's work any better in a mixed tank of Africans?

Art

P.S. For the record, I like to keep CA's together, even down to the dithers and catfish. (not easy to do with catfish) and SA's together with the same region dithers, and catfish.
Example, Green Terror, pictus cats, striped Raphael, and Buenos Aires Tetras.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

aggriffin3 said:


> SA's together with the same region dithers, and catfish.
> Example, Green Terror, pictus cats, striped Raphael, and Buenos Aires Tetras.


Same region? :lol:I suppose a Continent is a region, but then so could the tropics be considered a region, especially when considering tropical fish.

Not sure pictus cats and striped raphael are found in the same waters or similar water chemistry, but they are from the same region. Buenos Aires tetras are found much farther south, from different water chemistry and are actually sub-tropical. Green Terror are not even Atlantic slope but rather Pacific slope.......I guess if you consider Washington state to be the same region as the state of Maine, or Florida the same region as California. At least these places are in the same country! :lol:

If such a mix works well.....then it is a good mix. But I fail to see the significance of these fish originating from the same Continent?


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## aggriffin3 (Aug 15, 2009)

Bernie, I guess I don't know my Biology and Geography like you, but I do know that they are considered South American and Central American when it comes to an area, like BA Tetras, Green Terrors, and Striped Rapheals. If you want to start playing Geography Teacher, count me out, I failed.

Art


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Not trying to play geography teacher. South America is a theme for a tank......and nothing wrong with a theme for a tank. But like most tanks, it is a mix of sorts. Even a mix of tropical with sub-tropical. How well the fish can thrive, and how well they can co-exist over the long term, IMO, is most important. That it fits a certain 'theme' is fine, but ultimately the tank has to 'work'.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Quote "Not trying to play geography teacher. South America is a theme for a tank......and nothing wrong with a theme for a tank. But like most tanks, it is a mix of sorts. Even a mix of tropical with sub-tropical. How well the fish can thrive, and how well they can co-exist over the long term, IMO, is most important. That it fits a certain 'theme' is fine, but ultimately the tank has to 'work'."

--Exactly. On one extreme there is the biotope, in which the decor and fish look exactly like you might find in nature. Then there is the mixed method in which anything goes...as long as the inhabitants are healthy. I've done both, and like both....but for different reasons. Most people that argue against mixing African's and CA's don't keep biotope tanks, so there is just as much risk of disaster for them mixing CA's from different regions as there is for an aquarist mixing CA's with mbuna or non-cichlids...maybe more so, because the CA's see each other in a more competitive way than they do with mbuna.


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