# Please share your thoughts or documentation



## TitoTee (Feb 18, 2006)

I believe that the Blue Ram bred in certain fish farms are fed Hormones so that the fish will color up before it's normal time.

While these farms are able to deliver a product that will please the average fish keeper, the fish are not hardy and rarely are they breedable. (Sure, you may have your Blue Rams spawn just a week after placing them in your tanks - but why do we never hear from you again?) That's what I mean by breedable. If you kept apistos - you will find that these fish will breed without many problems at all. I have a pair of apistos that will raise broods in a community tank!!

The hormones not only increase the speed at which the fish come into adult colors but they also mature reproductively as well. This is why we see Blue Rams spawning just a few months after hatching. I also believe this is why they make for poor parents and the fry have no instinct to stay down and near their parents since the parents have not developed instincts themselves.

Because these hormone fed Rams mature so quickly, they seem to lack their wild instinct to raise broods properly. I find it very hard to believe that wild blue rams behave this way in nature. My experiences breeding Blue Rams are as follows:

Pairs will eat their eggs.
Pairs will eat their fry after about two or three days.
Even with parents removed - fry seem to not be able to eat the natural fauna in the tank as food.
Fry do not develop well - either take to long to free swim or swim erratically.

It is rare to be able to keep one of these Blue Rams alive past a year and therefore not many hobbyist are able to see how they spawn and raise broods at ages above a year.

Please share your thoughts and even documentastion supporting or refuting some of my points. ultimately I would like to be well educated on the subject through this thread. I don't just want to read someone's write up on the net, I want to hear about experiences, non scientific empirical data if you will. I am also hoping that hobbyist will be educated and stop supporting these farms as well!


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## jd lover (Mar 11, 2011)

TitoTee said:


> Because these hormone fed Rams mature so quickly, they seem to lack their wild instinct to raise broods properly. I find it very hard to believe that wild blue rams behave this way in nature. My experiences breeding Blue Rams are as follows:
> 
> Pairs will eat their eggs.
> Pairs will eat their fry after about two or three days.
> ...


my young discus does the same thing and theyre hormone free. practice makes perfect and most time we are the ones that mess up and not the fish itself.

i agree that hormones are bad for the fish but not all fish farm fills their fish with hormones.

in this hobby, when you buy from a reputable dealer your already 5 step ahead.


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## TitoTee (Feb 18, 2006)

Mods - I'm unsubscribing from the thread and you can close it if you'd like. Thanks.


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## neutrino (May 4, 2007)

> my young discus does the same thing and theyre hormone free. practice makes perfect and most time we are the ones that mess up and not the fish itself.
> 
> i agree that hormones are bad for the fish but not all fish farm fills their fish with hormones.
> 
> in this hobby, when you buy from a reputable dealer your already 5 step ahead.


I couldn't say which breeders or farms use hormones or which don't, or what the case might have been with the experience of the OP, but I'd agree in general with the above. It's been some years since I've kept rams, but tank conditions can also make a difference, whether water conditions, stress from tank mates, etc. and also the individual ram. Mine seemed to live in the range 2.5 to 4 years or so, apparently within a typical range for them as a relatively short lived fish according to anything I've read.

_Many _SA cichlids take several tries to get rearing fry figured out and inexperienced pairs may eat eggs or fry in the meantime or do so because they're stressed, etc. Some pairs may never get it figured out. Also ram fry need warm enough temps to survive. But, I'd also agree that (with some species more than others) breeding strains can make a difference and conditions they were reared in (including not only hormones or not, but tank conditions, what they were fed to get them to marketable size, etc.).


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## TitoTee (Feb 18, 2006)

jd lover and neutrino

Do you guys have any picks of your fry as they developed?

That would be really cool for you guys to share them. I think young Rams are so cute - please share :drooling:


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

With Rams its not a case of the parents getting it right, TitoTee is discussing what many believe to be the problem. Although I hear two scenarios, either the fish are A) hormones, or B) Have been taken from their parents for so long that they are loosing the parenting instinct.

Tito,

Sorry I don't have any real life experience to share, I read extensively on rams, but the general consensus is that they are crappy parents (whatever the reason) and rarely raise fry. I just wanted to come in and try to get the thread back on topic, hopefully some of the guys breeding them will chime in.


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## neutrino (May 4, 2007)

Ahud-- As far as being on topic, the original post included the following:


> I find it very hard to believe that wild blue rams behave this way in nature. My experiences breeding Blue Rams are as follows:
> 
> Pairs will eat their eggs.
> Pairs will eat their fry after about two or three days.
> ...


Also:


> Please share your thoughts and even documentastion supporting or refuting some of my points. ultimately I would like to be well educated on the subject through this thread


So, as someone who _does _have experience with german blue rams, my comments about their breeding are not completely irrelevant.

Tito--
Blue rams in general are not the easiest fish to breed in an aquarium, no matter their source, let alone if they have been chemically damaged. So, not knowing where your fish came from and not being able to answer the part of your post regarding which sources of these fish use hormones, I'm not trying to refute that aspect of the subject. But what I said about blue ram parents being like other SA cichlids in often taking several tries to get rearing their fry figured out or that some pairs never get it right IS true of blue rams _in general_ and can be confirmed by other sources. For example:
http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/cichlid/germanblueram.php


> DonÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t lose heart if the first few spawnings are unsuccessful. A lot of things can go wrong and it is common for German blue rams to spawn a few times before they get everything right. They might for instance eat a few batches before they become good parents. Once they have started breeding, you can however expect a new batch once a month or so. Young pairs are known to fight quite a lot and the aquarium must contain plenty of hiding spots to avoid stress and injury.
> 
> If your couple continues to eat their offspring even after several spawnings it can be a sight of distress in the aquarium. Try to figure out what stresses your fish and do your best to make the aquarium more relaxing for them.


IME the above quote is spot on for when I had them years ago. Some pairs did better for me than others, some did little more than bicker with each other. The rams I had were not coming from Asia, were not hormoned, and were not spectacularly colored when I bought them or at unusually small sizes. Spawning varied with the individual fish themselves, at least in my case.

When I was keeping them I had ph at 6.0, soft water, temps 84-86, lots of plants for hiding places for parents and fry. Scattered pebbles for spawning sites.

Like I've mentioned I kept them years ago (so I don't have photos, etc.) but even today not all blue rams come from Asia and are hormoned, local and hobbyist breeders still breed them. So, how much of the market is flooded with hormone damaged fish, or whether that is the trouble with yours I can't say. But that they are not the easiest fish to breed and that success can take patience or certain conditions in the tank or can depend a lot on the particular pair is not news to many of the hobbyists who _have _bred them. Not taking anything away from your points about the effects of hormones, etc. Maybe it would help to get your stock from a good small scale breeder?

Anyway, while I'm at it, here's another reference with breeding information-- this one also makes the observation that some parents make better pairs than others. 
http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Breeding_Blue_Rams.php


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## neutrino (May 4, 2007)

I can't document what I did with rams years ago, just didn't take fish pics or video back then, but I can find a couple for you. 






Larger, older fry:





Plenty of vegetation to hide in:


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## neutrino (May 4, 2007)

Ok, took a little more time and found you a couple of links I'll pm to you-- dwarf enthusiasts _are _currently breeding blue rams successfully, and you can find some good information on rearing fry, what it takes to get them to survive past the first couple of days, etc. --as I said, breeding them is tricky, but hobbyists are doing it.

PM coming your way. :thumb:


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Nice neutrino :thumb:

Sorry if I offended, I was just trying to avoid the thread getting hit with a lot of general info.


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## neutrino (May 4, 2007)

ahud said:


> Nice neutrino :thumb:
> 
> Sorry if I offended, I was just trying to avoid the thread getting hit with a lot of general info.


LOL... Well, it motivated me to go into more detail and spend some time 'documenting' my opinion, so not such a bad thing. :thumb:


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## TitoTee (Feb 18, 2006)

I'm sorry but there's more to it than the easy explanations I am receiving here.

I had a Bolivian pair in my 125 gallon community mate and spawn for the first time and they were spot on with protecting the fry. Of course in a community fry survival is nil to none but they did an awesome job at keeping fry alive for the first week. When the fry began to stray too far from the parents (natureÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s way) the tetras began to gobble them up. My point is that the Bolivians had intact instinct! The pair consisted of a Wild Male and a female from Singapore. I also have an Apisto Borelli pair (looks to be F1's since the male is not as colored up) but this pair has done an amazing job at keeping the fry alive in the community tank. In fact I had to remove the male for fear he will claim some lives protecting. Still and all the female is doing just fine on her own protecting the fry and taking them out to forage. This has all happened within a couple of months so the experience is fresh. And course I do not care to breed these fish that is why I let them spawn in the community. But it is fascinating to watch their instincts go into action and do what they would have done in the natural habitats.

No sir no sir ....

The Blue Ram has been Line Bred, Hormoned, and only God himself knows what else they've done to this fish. I refuse to believe that these fish in nature behave the same way. They would have been extinct a long time ago. And it should not take Blue Rams that long to get it right. Most fish I've bred got it right the first time sirs.

No sir - you guys will have to come better than that :wink:


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## neutrino (May 4, 2007)

There's a difference between bolivian rams, apistos, and German blue rams, always has been. German blue rams are line bred-- well that's what _makes _a German blue ram a German blue ram, whether 20 years ago or today. Again, I've already said I can't speak to yours or to those that are in the market now in general. But some hobbyists ARE successfully breeding German blue rams, make out of that whatever you want to.


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## RayQ (Sep 26, 2007)

> German blue rams are line bred-- well that's what makes a German blue ram a German blue ram


Exactly! I do believe that line breeding does diminish the fishes natural instincs towards rearing fry, that is simply my opinion. Maybe the many generations removed from wild that have never experienced predation has also affected how fry are treated/raised by the parents?

There are relatively frequent shipments of wild Blue Rams (Microgeophagus ramirezi) that come in to my LFS from Columbia, imported directly, I have a few growing out at the moment. I have not heard of anyone local to me having success breeding the wild stock, there are a lot of them around and some really skilled hobbiests in the area.

I am not trying to start an argument, but, you ask everyone to proove you wrong by providing their experiences. Rather than blaming the farms and breeders, why not go out and do the experiment yourself and share your results using some wild specimens?

I look forward to hearing from anyone else with wild Blue Rams as well. Some fish are just plain difficult to spawn and raise. . .


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## neutrino (May 4, 2007)

Nice post Ray. :thumb:

The one point I'd make in response is that many other line bred fish are not at all difficult to breed, such as any number of aulonocara, _many _of which are line bred these days. Then there's discus, angelfish, oscars, and various others that have been line bred for as long or much longer than ramirezi. So line breeding in itself doesn't automatically hinder breeding.

One thing I do know is that some fish require or have preferences for very specific elements to make them comfortable to breed. Great example of exactly that is Retroculus lapidifer as reported (in link below) by Lee Newman. 
http://www.tfhmagazine.com/details/...e-glass-box-smitten-by-the-retroculus-bug.htm

So, again, I'm not trying to argue the condition of German blue rams on the market today or the effect of hormones or whether something in their rearing by some breeders might not hinder their breeding. But just because a related fish is relatively easy to breed doesn't make blue rams easy to breed. There are a number of fish that quite obviously manage to breed in the wild that are quite challenging or next to impossible to breed in a tank and cases where _very _closely related fish differ considerably in breeding success. Consider angelfish-- scalare, including all the strains that have been line bred for decades, remain relatively easy to breed. Altums are very difficult and few have success with them. Consider discus, all but Heckel discus are successfully bred by thousands of hobbyists-- Heckel discus, rarely can anyone breed them. Breeding in the wild doesn't always equal breeding in a tank and successfully breeding one closely related fish in captive conditions doesn't guarantee another closely related fish won't be much more difficult.


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## Chromedome52 (Jul 25, 2009)

First, there is no such thing as a German Blue Ram. That name has been applied to common domestically bred Blue Rams because real German Rams have a reputation for being healthier and very easy to breed - which they are. People were getting unhappy with the normal commercial stock in the big boxes, so they just changed the name. It is false advertising, as none of those fish or their ancestors have been to Germany.

The real German Ram lines have very dark black markings that almost never fade out, and these markings cover more of the fish's body than on wild or domestic common Rams. They actually have less blue than the commercially produced Rams. We have a breeder locally who brought stock back from Germany many years ago (he is a world reknowned Betta breeder) and has been selling them through some of the smaller LFS. They breed readily, and take care of their fry quite well.

The primary problem with commercially bred Blue Rams is not hormones; it is antibiotics. You spawn 50-100 pairs, take all these spawns and put them together in one tank. This does prevent them from learning proper parenting behavior, for starters. They get tons of food and heavy water changes to produce growth, not hormones. However, to prevent disease under such crowded conditions they use massive quantities of antibiotics. These fish now have no natural immunity built up to common diseases, and it is a miracle that they survive to get to the store, much less into someone's tank. They will always be weak, and weak fish also make for poor parents. This information came to me from someone in the wholesale fish industry, she was chief vet at one of the major fish farms in Florida. The largest farms do as much transshipping as they do breeding.

I'm also leery of someone claiming to have Wild Rams that are small. It would have to be someone I trust to have the appropriate sources before I would accept that claim. Wild Rams can be quite variable in appearance, depending on where they were collected. Unfortunately, we have no data to correlate the origin of these fish with their good or bad colors.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Chromedome52,

Given proper water chemistry, are the wild rams as good of parents as the true German strains?


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

There are tons of species that will eat their eggs or offspring if they believe that their eggs or fry will be lost anyway. What makes everyone think that they are not seeing behavior that would be very useful in the wild when Rams eat their fry?


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

*Ray* and *neutrino*,

Please correct me if I am wrong or misquote, but I think you guys are saying two different things... I think *Ray* meant that spawning success (parents rearing fry, quality of fry) decreases with line breeding and *neutrino* meant that willingness to breed (ease of captive breeding) increases with line breeding... both of which I think most people would agree.



RayQ said:


> Maybe the many generations removed from wild that have never experienced predation has also affected how fry are treated/raised by the parents?


The most overlooked factor IMO! I doubt that millions of years of evolved behaviors (instincts) get wiped away in a few generations, but responses to environmental factors may be more plastic.

*Number6*... also a great point. Would there still be a correlation to innate parental ability though? For example species that are "better" parents are less likely to engage in such a behavior in nature than less-able parents? Do you think rams abandon a reproductive effort more frequently in nature than other species (species that don't share their poor-parent label)? I'd say being a tiny open-substrate spawner is a difficult reproductive mode in nature. So maybe they have to eat there fry a lot in nature and simply do so frequently in captivity as well?

*TitoTee*... if you read through the BRC bolivian rams club thread here, good parents are the exception not the norm for that species as well!

Ed


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## TitoTee (Feb 18, 2006)

Thanks for all the input..

You know I bet I read all the same articles many of you guys have read on Rams - wupti woo really folks.

I agree with the antibiotics argument as well - yes, I've read that somewhere too.

But some of you guys sound like George Zimmermam's lawyer - you are so absolutely quick to dismiss the convo and say letÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s move on without really settling anything.

Bottom line in my opinion...many of you know you too have failed breeding blue Rams and you chalked it off to saying Rams are hard to breed. Or that I (Tito) am doing something to spook the Rams - ooopps let me get off the floor whew glad I didn't hurt myself! That was funny.

Listen, I have had Blue Rams since 2004. My very first pair were absolutely awesome - they would spawn in a twenty breeder on a slate stone - plenty plants and sand for them to dig and have fun. They would spawn all the time and raise fry until they decided to eat them for lunch. Needless to say - they never raised a batch! Through the years I always had similar results. And let me not mention the tons of Rams that would just not make it once they received a scratch or would just die for whatever unknown reason.

I'm no novice you experts. My arguments are very valid NUFF said.

Rams on the most part are a destroyed fish from certain farms period.

Are there people breeding them - duh! But of course they are - now will they reveal their source of Rams to me? HAH!!! Like the fella you all know in Florida - I'm sure his breeders are wild stock mix with some of his established stock.

To date - what I've tried to do is remove the parents and get the fry going on my own. Hasn't worked so well. I'm sure if I kept trying I'll be able to raise a few - just not sure if its worth it. Seems like the fry don't do too well in my current tap water. I say that because when I was breeding Discus the fry did n0ot do too well either. Many would not grow past an inch. I know where my local water source is and trust me it is not a good source. Probably tons of TDS in there! So I know that is a part of my problem. And th4e water never clears up in my 125 show tank with two XP3's filtering. I know my water sucks but that is not the answer to the previous times BLue Rams in other tanks and differentwater sources have failed for me.

We're getting ready to move - when I setup at the new place we'll see how it goes then.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

You got a lot of answers from real world experience, not sure what else you are looking for.


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## jd lover (Mar 11, 2011)

Lets see what is more likely....

You being clueless Ans has no clue what you're doing

Or

Hormones turn the ram retarded.... (it may make the sterile but from what you said they're clearly not)

Tough call right?


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## TitoTee (Feb 18, 2006)

I like the sense of humor - glad people don't take things personal.

Yea - a few good responses but not what I was expecting. Almost felt as if I was in a dialogue with attorneys for some of these Blue Ram farms.

It does always amaze me how many are quickly to jump on the side of distributorship.

Hey - it is what it is - no love lost here.

But if you really want to shut my mouth up....

You can start by supplying me your pictures and videos of your own personal breeding successes. It's a put up or shut thing with me. I'm really not interested in the chit chat thing - show me results.

That is why I have the conviction that I have about Blue Rams. Not many people can come up with material witness. And my hunch is that many who are reading this thread have been right down the same road I've been... ****, you're probably still on it.


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## Chromedome52 (Jul 25, 2009)

Actually, I've successfully bred and raised Gold Rams back in the 70s as well as the real Germans more recently. I've always removed the parents within a few days after the fry are swimming, just long enough for the fry to imprint with the behavior. No Cichlid will watch their young forever; generally if they care for them two weeks after they start swimming, that's a long time. Yes, I've had some Cichlid species watch their young for 6 weeks, but on average two is pretty good.

Selection of the right breeding stock is the key. Your theory is that hormoning makes them poor parents. It cannot, and does not. Commercial raising of large quantities by removing them from the breeders at egg stage can cause a species to lose normal behavior patterns. Someone mentioned Angels, which are much easier to spawn as domestics than as wild, but are generally poor parents in domestic strains, while wilds that do spawn tend to make much better parents. Domestic Angels aren't hormoned, but are also very poor parents in most instances. That's because the commercial breeding of angels requires egg removal, breaking the natural behavior patterns.


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## neutrino (May 4, 2007)

> Selection of the right breeding stock is the key.


I agree, and exactly my point in an earlier post. It can also vary with the particular parents, going by my own experience. I've already said my blue ram pairs varied in success when I had them. I've also had some very attentive and very protective successful domestic strain angel fish pairs in my history, again leading me to say it can depend on the pair, while I'd readily agree that it can also depend on the particular strain in question.

To qualify my thoughts on line breeding, I know it's quite possible to breed _out _the characteristics that make good parents. The same mutations for a particular color pattern can have other unintended effects, including weaker fish, poorer parents, etc. Didn't intend to imply that can't happen. My intended point was only that, genetically speaking, that would be a random and not an automatic consequence of line breeding, as demonstrated by the numerous line bred strains of fish that continue to be very good breeders and line bred strains that are also quite robust in health. In fact, line breeding can also be done to make a weak fish stronger. It all depends on how it's done and the traits that are selected for.

In any case, the thread poster can retain whatever opinion he wants and that's fine with me, though the idea that I'm on the side of distributorship is absurd and laughable and I don't see where that comes out in anyone else's post either. But, whatever. Not sure OP really wants to consider anything that doesn't agree with his already formed opinion. I raised ramirezi 20 years ago, ok no photographic proof. So I post links to videos of healthy blue ram fry and PM links to a board where people are breeding them and go into the details of how to get them through the first couple of days and on their way to surviving and growing into healthy fish. Not good enough to avoid being panned for my efforts.

That's all fine. At least some of the other thoughtful and interesting posts here help justify my interest in this thread as not a total waste of time.


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## TitoTee (Feb 18, 2006)

I like the last two responses.

So still when you think about it I still have a legitimate beef. Seems like Farm raised Blue Rams are not the top choice for breeding. So I still have a leg to stand on.

My Ram keeping days are over.

They may cost just around $6.50 locally to me but really - that's about all they are worth - they are junk fish.

If I wanted to get one good shot at breeding them I know I will have to play the game and seek out good sources and pay lots of cash though when you factor in shipping.

I appreciate the responses though my convictions have not really changed - overall, this is a fish to stay away from unless you KNOW what you are getting.


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## neutrino (May 4, 2007)

> So still when you think about it I still have a legitimate beef. Seems like Farm raised Blue Rams are not the top choice for breeding. So I still have a leg to stand on.


  Ok, I can buy that. Pretty much what I was implying earlier, anyway, in talking about hobbyist or small scale breeders probably being a better source for them-- better than factory farms pumping them out in huge numbers. I feel the same way about discus these days and the common methods of raising and breeding discus, though discus are still among my favorite fish.


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## TitoTee (Feb 18, 2006)

neutrino said:


> > So still when you think about it I still have a legitimate beef. Seems like Farm raised Blue Rams are not the top choice for breeding. So I still have a leg to stand on.
> 
> 
> Ok, I can buy that. Pretty much what I was implying earlier, anyway, in talking about hobbyist or small scale breeders probably being a better source for them-- better than factory farms pumping them out in huge numbers. I feel the same way about discus these days and the common methods of raising and breeding discus, though discus are still among my favorite fish.


Plus one on the Discus as well. I no longer keep them either - wasted money.

I knew if I wanted to really enjoy breeding them I would have to go with wilds.

Sad part of the hobby


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## RayQ (Sep 26, 2007)

> I'm also leery of someone claiming to have Wild Rams that are small. It would have to be someone I trust to have the appropriate sources before I would accept that claim


Agreed, fortunately, I am lucky enough to be friends with the importer and have personally helped land the Cloumbian fish, infact, I helped land an order tonight. There were no Rams, all big fish, Crenicichla and pleco's mostly (a giant L191 - Royal Panaque included). I can safely say that we have WILD Blue Rams in Canada.



> Wild Rams can be quite variable in appearance, depending on where they were collected.


I also agree with this, any wild Rams I have seen had a much longer body, not nearly so stocky, for lack of a better description. I will see if I can get a photo or two of my specimens, you can clearly see a difference in body shape.



> The most overlooked factor IMO!


Thank you! I knew that I wasn't the only one!!! Nature culls, breeders don't.



> So still when you think about it I still have a legitimate beef. Seems like Farm raised Blue Rams are not the top choice for breeding. So I still have a leg to stand on.


I am not sure that anyone has argued this?


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## TitoTee (Feb 18, 2006)

RayQ said:


> > So still when you think about it I still have a legitimate beef. Seems like Farm raised Blue Rams are not the top choice for breeding. So I still have a leg to stand on.
> 
> 
> I am not sure that anyone has argued this?


But - when everyone is sort of telling you it's your fault, you spook the fish, or, it's your fault - you didn't pick the right fish, or it's the fish fault - you didn't get lucky enough - you got bad parents, etc, etc, I think you get my sentiment... it almost feels like people are indeed arguing the point.

Instead, why not shorten the thread and respond to me this way,

That hormones or any other agent affect Blue Ram breeding is your guess. Needless to say, you would have better luck trying to breed from Wild Stock that any linebred farm raised fish you can get your hands on no matter from what LFS.

That would have satified me far better than going round and round and round and round and round ......

Im so dizzy :dancing:


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## RayQ (Sep 26, 2007)

TitoTee said:


> But - when everyone is sort of telling you it's your fault, you spook the fish, or, it's your fault - you didn't pick the right fish, or it's the fish fault - you didn't get lucky enough - you got bad parents, etc, etc, I think you get my sentiment... it almost feels like people are indeed arguing the point.
> 
> Instead, why not shorten the thread and respond to me this way,
> 
> ...


Again, not sure that anyone "blamed" you for your percieved failures to raise Ram fry. I don't disagree that there are some poor quality rams out there, but, it's certainly not all of them.

As for shortening the thread, there was some very well presented information about rams, maybe someone out there will manage to filter out an answer that they are looking for if they care to read the thread. :thumb:


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I enjoyed the thread.

Seems silly now that Ed and number6 mentioned it, but I NEVER even considered that the "bad parenting" may be due to their reproductive mode. Like Ed said, I imagine rams are not a fish that has the luxury of being able to stand their ground to all threats.

I don't intend to take the thread off topic, but these discussions truly are my favorite part of the hobby. Other questions I have always wondered is why do certain species have a tendency to form stronger pair bonds? Why are the larger centrals and south Americans more inclined to kill their mates?


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

I promised myself I wouldn't get involved but AHud's questions are just too **** tempting! 
:lol: 


ahud said:


> I have always wondered is why do certain species have a tendency to form stronger pair bonds? Why are the larger centrals and south Americans more inclined to kill their mates?


Instincts... like tiny computer programs that expect variables... don't give it the right variables and all the program does is crash!

Ahud, species don't form stronger/weaker pair bonds... you are simply seeing a program of preference at work and the simple evolutionary success of the instinct not to constantly re-evaluate the preference shown for the current mate.

larger CA and SA cichlids aren't more inclined to kill their mates... you are seeing a 'bug' in their programming because the tiny confines of our aquariums.

Tito would do well to also think of Rams as tiny little computer programs... give them what they want, all the right variables, program works and they breed. Don't give them the right variables and the programming crashes (fry are eaten). There is no fault worth trying to lay at anyone's or anything's feet. Hormoned fish, farm raised fish... the programming has been altered a little, but they are still possible to succeed with.

opcorn:


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

ahud said:


> Other questions I have always wondered is why do certain species have a tendency to form stronger pair bonds? Why are the larger centrals and south Americans more inclined to kill their mates?


Becuase for many species the 'pair bond' is most often only for a duration of a spawn. Nothing more. After that it's good bye and 'get lost'. There is nothing too monogamous with many, if not most substrate spawners. After they seperate they have the opportunity to select a new mate, if they have suffecient calories to mate again.
'Pair bond', to a large extent, is an adaptation to captivity. Large amount of calories to keep the female able to breed frequently; outside threats in close proximity that give incentive for a pair to continue holding a territory as a pair, and a lack of new mates, serves to hold a pair together. Plus selection by aquarists over time.....the male kills the female, I guess the aquarists doesn't breed that particular fish and pass it's offspring around the hobby. There is selection oveer time, by aquarists, for fish with better 'pair bonds'.Large CA/SA kill their mates because of their capacity to in flict damage in short time....and there is not enough space for them to go on their 'merry way'.


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## TitoTee (Feb 18, 2006)

My my my - the tangled webs we weave!

I have always been a proponent of fish not supposed to be caged up in a tiny fish tank, even a 180 gallon is a tiny fish tank for most fish that swim in rivers, lakes and ponds.

But someone went ahead and said something here that totally backs up what I believe in - that fish donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t belong in tanks - they don't behave as they normally would and why would they - I know I canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t promise you my normal behavior if you boxed me in a cage. (oh yea - you said it, you just didnt say it the way I said it but you said it babe) 

But really - all you guys did was tie me back even stronger to my convictions - I've been feuding with myself to just get rid of my tanks and I'm just that much closer now than ever - what started out as a hobby for me with much enthusiasm has ultimately ended with sheer disappointment and the disappointment is not in the breeding or lack thereof - the disappointment is the constant ingestion of the thought that I am going against my convictions on where these fish should be - instead of inside my little glass cage. This is a "to each his own world" and I believe that I have reached my own and the next step would be get rid of these fish and tear down my tanks.

When I factor in my philosophy, time spent or wasted, MONEY spent or WASTED, it makes sense to me where in the road I find myself at....

Good luck to all of you with your hobby - I think I woke up to a truth that always existed within me.

Time spent in this hobby for me 2003 - 2012


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

:lol:

You make for an interesting poster TitoTee. :thumb:

IMO, I doubt fish know much about being in the wild versus being in tanks if it makes you feel any better. I don't think fish are as intelligent as we try to build them up to be.


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## TitoTee (Feb 18, 2006)

ahud said:


> :lol:
> 
> You make for an interesting poster TitoTee. :thumb:
> 
> IMO, I doubt fish know much about being in the wild versus being in tanks if it makes you feel any better. I don't think fish are as intelligent as we try to build them up to be.


Glad you have a sense of humor!

But truly - it is my way of not wasting anymore money on fish. I may keep tetras and spawn them from time to time - heck I have a tank full of them now - just not 100% about keeping fish I may chalk it up altogether.

And yes, tank raised fish know nothing about the wild - yes I know that.

I also will not splash blood on your fur coat.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

TitoTee said:


> fish donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t belong in tanks - they don't behave as they normally would and why would they - I know I canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t promise you my normal behavior if you boxed me in a cage.
> Good luck to all of you with your hobby -


If fish don't interest you enough, then don't keep them. Simple as that! :lol: I have no delusions; we keep fish for our own sake. 
Fish find themselves in strange situations. They don't actually make a living in aquaria---we provide it for them. Some of their behavoir is what and how they would do in nature, some is somewhat similar, some is completely different (due to captivity and being fed), and some behavoir is similar but more so, or exagerrated.
Fish have hundreds, thousands, even millions of offspring in a lifetime. If a population reaches an equilibrium, it means all but 1 or 2 per adult breeding fish survive to carry on the species 
( on average). We have brought a few into captivity ( no different then other domesticated animals) and they live because of us. I have some beleifs in animal welfare...some requirments got to be met in order for the fish to thrive. Beyond that, all the better, as all aquarists are trying to succeed in keeping, breeding and maintaining fish.


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## neutrino (May 4, 2007)

> Other questions I have always wondered is why do certain species have a tendency to form stronger pair bonds? Why are the larger centrals and south Americans more inclined to kill their mates?


This is the kind of thing biologists are still studying and for which a simple _one size fits all_ answer doesn't account for all the variables of environmental cues, differing genetically programmed behaviors, population dynamics, and other factors.

A couple of studies with convicts, one points to availability of breeding sites as a factor.
http://www.mendeley.com/research/pa...-convict-cichlid-archocentrus-nigrofasciatus/

Another experimented with presence or absence of fry and theorized that female aggression is a factor:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0376635796000526

Then here's a completely different strategy in wild populations of Neolamprologus pulcher, where less dominant fish in a group that could potentially form their own pairs stick around to help rear fry of the dominant pair, something that has been studied for decades and for which there are a variety of theories.
http://www.mendeley.com/research/ma...atively-breeding-fish-neolamprologus-pulcher/


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