# Did my research...did learn anything?



## niswanger (Mar 13, 2015)

Hey gang,

Here's my first Lake Malawi Mbuna setup and my choice of stocking. Please provide your feedback. Couple of things I forgot to mention: 1. Yes the tank is a 1994 Oceanic that's 48" long X 13" deep X 23" tall. 2. I resealed it with silicon 1. 3. I will also use a Cobalt MJ 900, pre-filter sponge and aeration tube attachment.






Thanks,
Roy


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I love the cocoa puffs reference. :lol:

More rocks. 1m:4f on every species discussed. Shoot for 3 species with your footprint.

No acei with your footprint. Choose 1 between yellow labs and red zebra (Metriaclima estherae). They crossbreed.

Rusty is a good choice. (Iodotropheus sprengerae)

BN Plecos are USUALLY OK.

At least 5 Synodontis, could choose multipunctatus, petricola or lucipinnis.

You could do the estherae, the rusties and Labidochromis caeruleus Nkhata (white labs).

Or I always like Pseudotropheus socolofi 1m:4f for a light blue with black dorsal like the labs.


----------



## niswanger (Mar 13, 2015)

Thanks DJ!

I've got one more rock I could squeeze in. That wood piece has lots of under cover as well, but those to large rocks (one on the right is 50 pounds) aren't very holey.

I did snag two Synodontis multipunctatus just today as I couldn't pass up $40 for both (they are the largest I've seen in any pet store, about 4.5"+ long). I will buy 2 more soon. They are in a 30 gallon where two bristlenose plecos are breeding.

Well I guess I will choose yellow lab since I already have 4 of them (1M 3F) in another 30 gallon temporarily.

Darnit, I really wanted the estherae (red zebras) too. I guess now I would go with 3 types (yellow lab, pseudotropheus socolofi, and 
iodotropheus sprengerae, rusty). Do 1M and 4F each and then have 4 Synodontis multipunctatus

Now did some calling around and one shop said adding all 15 cichlids at once could put my tank in a mini cycle. He said that I may not have enough good bacteria in my filters to keep up with the bio load. He recommended, if possible, add one type at a time with no more than 1 week apart from adding the next species. He said if they become sexually active then it could become a problem.

Decisions, decisions!

Thanks,
Roy


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Cycle your tank with ammonia and add them all at once. How did you cycle it?

Usually we are buying unsexed juvenile mbuna and buying 2X the number of females we want to end up with...so to get 1m:4f we buy 8 and plan to rehome 3 extra males as they mature.

If you have to add one species at a time for some reason I'd wait a month in between additions and be sure to add 5 at once. But then you have to deal with another tank to quarantine them.

Regarding rock, think in terms of a honeycomb throughout the tank...not just a cave for each fish. Agree the rocks are not very holey thus not as useful for anyone to hide in the cracks. It is often said to fill a mbuna tank to the waterline with rocks. Try to come 1/3 to 1/2 the height of the tank at least, the more nooks and crannies the better. The fish like a tight fit.


----------



## niswanger (Mar 13, 2015)

Nine days ago I setup my 2217 and 2215 and put one into service in an existing established 30 gallon and the other on an existing 25 gallon. I let them run...then two days ago I filled my 60G and treated with Seachem prime and I dosed it with Easy-Live EasyStart (directions for that product is dose per instruction day 1/7/14 and test along the way, when Amonia and Nitrites are zero the tank is cycled). The 2217/15 are in service and I also have 10 2" gold fish in the tank now. Having said all this, should I still try to cycle with ammonia? I probably need to wait at least 7 days before I can even begin thinking about any stocking.

I get the sexing issue as juveniles and having to bring back some males back after they are recognizable etc.

Thanks for the advice.
Roy


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The 30G is established...how many fish? Trying to establish bioload. Will you keep this tank/fish operational or can all the established media go to the 48x13?

The 25G is existing...did/does it have fish? Will you keep this tank/fish operational or can all the established media go to the 48x13?

You are using a bottled product to cycle the 48x13. I have little confidence in them, but once you have completed the steps and gotten the final test results, I would test with ammonia to ensure the bacteria can process it in 24 hours. The directions did not say you should be getting nitrates if you are cycled? Are you supposed to use it with every water change?

The gold fish are in the 48x13? Are they feeders? They have a high likelihood of carrying disease...I'd almost want to wait 3 weeks from the day you added them just to ensure nothing develops.


----------



## niswanger (Mar 13, 2015)

the 30/25G are existing community setups and staying as-is with their own established filtration. I will research on testing the effectiveness of the current beneficial bacteria colony by adding ammonia and then testing 24 hours later, but I will wait another week and first test for ammonia and ensure it's zero before conducting this test.

Ugg...yes the are feeders from a local privately owned shop. They use them to feed their Lion Fish and other fish. Well, what's done is done...I will do as you say and monitor.

So I'm watching these 4 yellow labs in the 30g. They have grown noticeably in the last 3 weeks since we got them. The male is now a strong 3.5+" and he's really chasing the females. I am afraid now for the other tank inhabitants so could I try removing the male and putting him by himself in the 25 community to delay any sexual behavior? I shouldn't have bought them but they were larger than normal and 20% off that day.

Thanks for your help and advice.
Roy


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'm surprised the labs of both genders are not already bothering the community fish. Labs can spawn at 1.5" (include the tail) so it's likely he is trying to get the females to spawn. Isolation works.

Know that mbuna do not defend fry. Any spawning aggression should be directed to the females or his territory. Is he keeping the other fish in a corner?

So the 48x13 now has the 2217 and 2215 running on it?


----------



## niswanger (Mar 13, 2015)

Yes sir, the 48X13 has both the 2217 and 2215 running now for 2.5 days (they were the ones that ran 9 days in my established 30/25 setups). I have also just raised the temp to 82, added a long 24" air stone as well (read this helps the cycle as well). Wonder if those feeder gold fish can handle 82? I just put water in it 2.5 days ago...haven't even crossed my mind to test the water yet.

The male is is chasing the females hard and he has a bed now under the base of a wood stick. I think I am going to move him now.

Do you see any issues in say 3 weeks when I buy 10 more mbuna (5 each of a different type from the yellow labs) if they are much smaller like 1.5-2" where as the yellow labs will be 3.5+"? I am thinking about going with the

Thanks,
Roy


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The size difference should be fine. Swapping 10 gold fish for 10+5 mbuna (increase bioload by 1/3) should be fine too. In theory you would quarantine new additions for 3 weeks so you could buy the remaining 10 mbuna now so they would be done with quarantine by the time the goldfish are declared healthy. Or maybe you will skip quarantine if you don't have a spare tank?

Are you going to be comfortable with mbuna aggression seeing as the male lab has you concerned?


----------



## niswanger (Mar 13, 2015)

I'm fine with the behavior, I just don't know if sexual activity in that 30G right now is ideal...I'd rather not any of that stuff happen until I release them in the 60G. I don't have a QT, available right now. I may just add these yellow labs sooner than I might like. I think in a week (regardless of the feeders, risk is on me and the fish), if water parameters are w/in spec I will add them. But because of bio load, will wait at least another week before adding the second type and then another week add the 3rd and final type. I read this is okay as a week doesn't give them time to become sexually active and thus being more territory aggressive.

Thanks,
Roy


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

But does a week really give the bio filter a chance to double in volume? If they are mature (over 1.5") they will spawn in the bag on the way home from the LFS. But it may take a while to stop worrying about the new surroundings and start making babies.


----------



## niswanger (Mar 13, 2015)

Ha...is it going to be okay if I just let this community of 3 types of mbuna mate and have babies and do nothing but step back and watch? Of course water changes and normal maintenance. I'm not looking to start a fish farm. I figure if 1 or two wigglers make it to juvenile state then I can just bring them to the LFS.

Sounds like I really need to give it time...I've already started a fish in cycle so I'll let it be, the gold fish seem to be doing fine, even in 82 degrees water...tank looks crystal clear now but I am sure I will go through some equalizing stages. More rock and another nice stick is added as well. I'll take a pic when it's all setup and done.

Thanks,
Roy


----------



## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Roy...

It's unlikely the 7 day stint of the Eheims on other tanks built up any benficial bacteria. You're basically starting from scratch. I would ditch the goldfish, move some of the media from your community filters to each Eheim, cycle with ammonia and follow progress with a quality test kit, once cycled add all the fish you intend to keep. This way you avoid having to baby step fish into the tank, rid yourself of goldfish likely carrying disease, can be confident in a strong biofiltration system, every mbuna on an even playing field to start.

Useful cycling info- viewtopic.php?f=4&t=239823


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yes the females can spit 20 fry every six weeks, no effort on your part required. Most will get eaten but you will have the occasional survivor.


----------



## niswanger (Mar 13, 2015)

Now, after speaking to several LFS here in the Austin, TX area I have been informed I don't have to do 1M to 4F ratio and I could do all male. Basically I don't care about breeding...might be a nice thing to watch, but I'm not going to try to save any fry. I also just want to have a community of 3 types of Mbuna that are all getting along, for the most part. I'm going to be adding the fish by Mbuna type from least aggressive to most aggressive. So in about 10 days I plan to add the 5 yellow labs (which are 1M 4F), then a few days later I will add ~5/6 yellow tail ACEI, then finally I decide to go with Red Zebras and I will add 5/6 of those which I believe are the most aggressive of the 3 types.

Can I do the 1M/4F Yellow Labs and then all male ACEI and all male Red Zebras? Is this a normal practice. Wouldn't having females bring out more male color and activity? What must I NEVER do, like add 2M and X number of F?

I was also told to remove the gold fish and that it was a "devastating" action on my part and that a lot of people use gold fish for cycling. I was then told to be safe and run a UV stearilizer for several days. And then finally before I add the first set of Mbuna (yellow labs) I should do a large water change.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Roy


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

With all-male you usually do one of each and no look alikes and no females.

What I would expect with your idea of 5 male acei and 5 male estherae is this. A mbuna male will spawn with any other mouthbrooder regardless of species or appearance if females are present. So the 1 lab male and the 5 acei males and the 5 estherae males will all be trying to spawn with the 4 yellow labs...I expect they would not live long.

The large # of females/male is to spread male aggression across lots of females. If one get's injured today, chances are it will be a different one getting injured tomorrow and maybe they can all live through it. So 3m:12 across all species works better than 11m:4f.

I think you will drive yourself crazy trying to get consensus from all the advisors in the world, LOL. Chose one source for your information and go with it. I see no need for a UV sterilizer.


----------



## niswanger (Mar 13, 2015)

Alright, have asked elsewhere as well and the majority are with you...being a moderator with credentials as yourself on this cichlid forum has me second guessing other suggestions. Right I plan to put 6 yellow tail ACEI (juveniles) and hope I get only one male but if I have two then I can take one back. I will add my 5 yellow labs and these 6 new ACEI at the same time (one week from now). I will do a large water change before adding them and pop one canister and put a pack of seachem pruigen in the top of the filter. Then in two+ weeks I will add 6 red zebras. Then in 3 week's time I will add two syn (multipuntatis) and large female albino bristle nose pleco.

Thanks again for all your support/help.

-Roy


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Sounds pretty good. You won't see the multi's if you have only 2...5 would be better. Also a help in gobbling up those lab/estherae fry.


----------



## niswanger (Mar 13, 2015)

I am getting an albino multi  $30 and he's ~ 5" long...LFS guy is really nice! Okay just measured: NH3 = 0ppm NO2 = 2.5ppm and NO3 = 20ppm.

-Roy


----------



## niswanger (Mar 13, 2015)

Well, now I have 10 Mbuna's in the tank and I think it's holding its cycle. Ammonia and Nitrites are zero and Nitrates are 20ppm. I also added some established Eheim Substrate Pro from a Fluval canister I have in a 30G (replenished with new of course and only removed about 1/3). I have also added a HOB filter from another aquarium (you might be able to see it over at the right intake (Eheim 2217 intake).

So below is a new video. I have some Red Zebra questions. I was at a local fish store and they had 6 red zebras and they were all a nice dark orange and bout 2 to 2.5" long. They were ALL the same color. So I didn't get any, besides I can't add any more to this tank right now as I don't want to start a mini-cycle or worse, crash the tank. So, I'm waiting at least a week, actually Monday May 4th is when I plan to buy them from a better shop that carries them all the time but they are 25 miles away.

So I've been researching these Red Zebras and I see their color can vary a lot. I have read the females are generally a darker orange (really?). They also go by "Cherry" Reds? So any tips on getting 5 or 6 of these? At minimum I want 5 (1M/4F) but may end up buying 6 and weeding out the males is I have more later as they mature.






Thanks,
Roy


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

They are all born red-orange so the juveniles will look alike. The red males are line-bred (in the wild they are blue) so there is still a sheen of blue on the males when they mature. They become a peach color. Take a flashlight and you might be able to see the blue in the fins.

Don't worry if none are peach...when multiple males are in a tank they may not show their adult colors. It's a defense mechanism. But 2.5" is not mature either.


----------



## niswanger (Mar 13, 2015)

Okay, thank you for the help.


----------



## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I would get at least 8 Red Zebras. I'm sure this was covered earlier, but the labs and red zebra are known to hybridize quite readily. I think you should skip this combo.

Yellow Labs are bred over and over and over again. Sometimes the quality starts to drop off. Or maybe there is another species somewhere in their lineage. The new Lab is from a different breeder, and the color is a bit washed out. Probably not the best quality.


----------



## niswanger (Mar 13, 2015)

Well, breaking all sorts of rules, but so far the community rocks! I have 6 yellow labs, 6 yellow tail ACEI, and 7 red zebras. I know for a fact I have multi male/female per type and I will deal with any "real" aggression as it occurs. There are also 3 Cuckoo Catfish and one quite large Synodontis but I haven't been able to ID him, maybe you all can help from the video. The 5 silver dollars seem to be doing fine. My PH and general hardness seems to be in the overlap range for these fish and they seem to be healthy going on now 3 weeks in this setup. I feel them NLS min sinking pelets, Spirulina and a chunk of zucchini weekly and finally after the light goes off at night I put some I throw some Omega Shrimp Pellets in for the catfish.

Couple of things I don't necessarily like are the heavily scratched tank (free 1994 Oceanic so I can't really complain, but I feel like a new unscratched tank would look better), the black diamond blasting sand substrate sounded cool, but in practice, it just magnifies all the poop (orange from the mbuna and white from the catfish) and finally the black painted back is better than not painted because it's up against a window; however, an artificial rock background (forgot the name of the expensive flexible rock) would look a lot better.

I want to try and replace the substrate with a natural fine pebble/sand. I suspect if I can find this stuff then after washing a lot I can then simply remove my rocks/wood and then slowly scoop out my black sand as much as possible (a little layer left behind should be okay) and then slowly add the new substrate, all while the fish are still in the tank. Would this be okay?






Thanks,
Roy


----------



## niswanger (Mar 13, 2015)

Synodontis Petricola?


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Not petricola, they have small spots. I've never seen one like that, you could try www.planetcatfish.com for an ID. What was it sold to you as?

The Malawi will enjoy the sand more than gravel. What about increasing your filtration/circulation to sweep the waste into the filters?

When doing a project like this I prefer to put the fish in buckets and move quickly.


----------



## niswanger (Mar 13, 2015)

Looking like a hybrid: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... a3#p286527


----------

