# single fish of species in a cichlid community



## adamsfishes (Jan 29, 2016)

Hi,

I'm new to the forum.

I'm going to be setting a up a SA cichlid tank in the spring, so I'm trying to plan it now. I've previously held discus, but it's been a number of years since I've kept fish.

I'm thinking about a 90-120 gallon Apisto-centric tank with a few different species (paired) and probably some Rams (probably Bolivian) plus some checkerboards, but I was also thinking about adding a few bigger cichlids to make it more interesting. I also plan to add a school of pencilfish.

Some larger cichlid species I'm considering are Acarichthys heckelii, Heros rotkeil, Geophagus megasema, Cleithracara maroni (keyhole).

I'm wondering if these larger species are ok as singles. I'm really worried about intraspecific agression. I want a mostly peaceful tank, but I'd like a bit of interesting variety. I also don't want a massive fish density... it's going to be heavy on filtration and plants with few water changes.

Also strongly considering a Platydoras costatus (striped Raphael catfish). Just love cats and this one seems like a nice fit.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

I love my Acarichthys Heckelii, and they have not shown any aggression to one another. Along with size/temperament you should also consider which fish eat plants. My Heros won't let anything green remain in the tank.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

I've kept keyholes (a group of 5) in a heavily planted 120G with apistos. The combination seemed to work well.


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## adamsfishes (Jan 29, 2016)

Thanks for the replies.

Sounds like I need to avoid the Heros. Too bad. 

Zimmy, do your keyholes stay near the bottom, or are they more of a mid swimmer? I like the keyholes, so it's nice to hear they mix well with Apistos. How many Apistos did you run in that setup?

Nodima, do your Acarichthys Heckelii dig much? I'm a little worried about them uprooting plants.


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

adamsfishes said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> Nodima, do your Acarichthys Heckelii dig much? I'm a little worried about them uprooting plants.


Not really diggers from what I've seen. Seem to be more of a mid water fish than bottom dweller. Can't say if they would uproot plants or not, but most of the troubles with plants have not come from fish digging, but more from fish pulling on plants themselves.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

adamsfishes said:


> Zimmy, do your keyholes stay near the bottom, or are they more of a mid swimmer? I like the keyholes, so it's nice to hear they mix well with Apistos. How many Apistos did you run in that setup?


The keyholes tended to stay on the bottom. I had two pairs of apistos. The tank was very heavily planted so everyone got along okay.


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## adamsfishes (Jan 29, 2016)

Zimmy- I was thinking about 3 or 4 pairs with a smaller number of other fish. You think that's too many? The thing is there, are so many cool varieties. I'm also lumping Rams in with this count ... so maybe 2-3 pairs of Apisto then a pair or two of Rams.

nodima - You mind listing the species and numbers of each you keep in your 125? I didn't see it on your tanks page.

Thanks for the info ... I'll have more questions as I get closer to pulling the trigger and decide on my fish mix.

For the larger 5-8" cichlids I'll probably start with more than I ultimately plan to keep then trim down as they grow and I decide which work best for me. I'


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

adamsfishes said:


> Zimmy- I was thinking about 3 or 4 pairs with a smaller number of other fish. You think that's too many? The thing is there, are so many cool varieties. I'm also lumping Rams in with this count ... so maybe 2-3 pairs of Apisto then a pair or two of Rams.


I'd be careful about getting too many different varieties of apistos in the same tank. With some varieties, there's a risk that they will interbreed.

There are so many cool ones but that's why we buy more tanks  The nice thing with apistos is you can set up a pair in a 10-15G tank and get plenty of entertainment.


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## adamsfishes (Jan 29, 2016)

Yeah, I wouldn't mind going with one species of Apisto then adding a group of Rams as well.

I'm considering something like this...

6 Apisto borelli
6 Pencilfish
4 Rams
4 Checkerboard
3 Acarichthys heckelii
1 Striped Raphael catfish

Is this too many fish for a 120 gallon? It's going to have a big wet/dry sump (~1000 gph) with UV. I'm thinking about making it a 150 instead...

Also, would it be crazy to add a single female Cichlasoma festae to this mix? I think it's probably the best looking fish out there...

Would appreciate some more opinions!


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## mambee (Apr 13, 2003)

I would forget the Raphael cat. They get very large and tend to hide all of the time. I have 2 large ones in my 150 gallon tank which I never see. They hide in the driftwood all day. A better choice would be a large school of cories. I have about 35 cories, mostly metae and adolfoi in my tank, and they look great.


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## Granamyr (Dec 16, 2015)

adamsfishes said:


> Also, would it be crazy to add a single female Cichlasoma festae to this mix? I think it's probably the best looking fish out there...


I think adding a red terror of any kind is going to spell disaster for all the other fish in your tank. The Hecklii might be ok as long as they are much bigger and the Raphael cat will likely hide most of the time, but other than that I think you could consider the rest to be food for the Red terror.


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## adamsfishes (Jan 29, 2016)

Yeah, I'm learning that the festae was a stupid idea. It's just so nice looking though...

I've been doing a lot of research, so I'm just going to do a dump here and see what some of you all think. Thanks again.

Mambee, I'll think about what you say about the Raphael. I just really like that style of catfish, and he won't get too big. I'd get a Redtail if I could do an 8ft aquarium. Let me know if you know of any other similar catfish that might fit the bill and don't get above about 10".

Ran corys with discus in my previous tank and honestly they don't interest me that much. The Sterbas are pretty nice though.

So what I know for sure now about this setup is:


It will definitely be a 4x2x2 with a big wet/dry sump and refugium setup. I'll post details in a separate thread when I get stuff going.[/*]
It will be planted but not like a jungle. I want open substrate and lots of swimming room and views of the fish (novel idea ikr).[/*]
It will be mostly cichlids, definitely SA but some CA are ok.[/*]
I know sand is desirable in these setups, but I'm pretty sure I'm going with a small flint gravel. I had sand in my last aquarium, and it end up getting scratches. I want to avoid that.[/*]
There will be some big drift/bog wood pieces and a few largish rocks.[/*]
Here are my fish criteria:

Don't eat plants.[/*]
Don't dig excessively and uproot plants. Some sifting and moving of gravel in open spaces is fine.[/*]
No more than a couple fish that get to 8-10". Several fish that get to ~5". A dozen or so smaller fish.[/*]
Minimal aggression among tankmates once things settle in.[/*]
Decent variety of fish while also maintaining a reasonable bioload. I absolutely do not want to overstock. Slightly understocked would be perfect.[/*]
So given these parameters, these are some fish I'm considering right now. I'm not sure about quantities, so I will just list species for now.

I would call these the "definitely in" cichlids but nothing is concrete yet:

Apistogramma borellii (Opal)[/*]
Dicrossus filamentosus (Checkerboard cichlid) - or another Apisto type[/*]
Acarichthys heckelii (Threadfin Acara)[/*]
Cichlids getting strong consideration, especially the first two:

Australoheros Oblongum (Chanchito)[/*]
Cryptoheros nanoluteus (Yellow Dwarf) - CA fish[/*]
Laetacara curviceps (Dwarf Flag)[/*]
Mikrogeophagus ramirezi (German Blue Ram)[/*]
Microgeophagus altispinosa (Bolivian Ram)[/*]
Cichlids I'm thinking about but not sure:

Aequidens pulcher (Blue Acara)[/*]
Thorichthys meeki (Firemouth)[/*]
Non-cichlids:

Nannostomus beckfordi (Pencilfish) - good size school[/*]
Platydoras costatus (Striped Raphael Catfish)[/*]
Quantities I'm really not sure about. I know pairs are desirable for a lot of fish, intraspecific aggression can be a big issue with cichlids, and some do well in larger groups.

And just to touch on the original "single species" question... I have no idea if something like 1 each of Threadfin Acara, Chanchito, Yellow Dwarf, Blue Acara, Firemouth be ok? Or a mix of singles and pairs?

Or instead maybe just get a few Threadfin Acara and pairs of Chanchito and Yellow Dwarf ... or all pairs ... or maybe pick two of the larger fish and get 5 of each ... not sure. I do feel like I want some variety though.

And a little breeding would be cool since I will have a refugium. Maybe I should shoot for a few pairs? Sorry for the rambling message, thanks for reading. Any thoughts would be appreciated.


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## mambee (Apr 13, 2003)

If you stay with smaller fish, you can do a nice combination of dwarf cichlids and schools of tetras. I'm a big fan of rams, blue or Bolivian. Blue rams like warmer water, and they would work well with large schools of cardinal and rummynose tetras. You could also mix the different color varieties of blue rams. You should match your fish with the tank parameters.

If you had a larger tank, I would suggest a group of one of the larger geophagus and a group of angelfish. This is what I keep in my 150 gallon tank, and I'm very happy with it.

If you want to do some live plants but want the tank to look open, you should tie Java fern and various Anubias to the driftwood. There are many species of Anubias, and I have some that are 6-8" long.

I switched to sand many years ago and would never switch back to gravel. The substrate stays cleaner because dirt doesn't work its way underneath. Also, most fish prefer sand. My geophagus are constantly sifting the sand, and my cories like to dig in it.

Raphael cats are cool looking, but they always hide. I had a spotted Raphael cat for almost 20 years, and I only saw him when he was fed. I purchased another spotted Raphael cat and never saw him again and thought that he had died. I removed a piece of driftwood from my tank and didn't know he was hiding there until I found his dried out corpse. My 2 Striped Raphael cats are about 4" long and fat. They used to come out at feeding time, but now I never see them. I know they are still alive because I can see them hiding in the driftwood, but otherwise they are never out.


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## adamsfishes (Jan 29, 2016)

Thanks for the thoughts on fish. I also like the Rams a lot ... so many choices though.



mambee said:


> I switched to sand many years ago and would never switch back to gravel. The substrate stays cleaner because dirt doesn't work its way underneath. Also, most fish prefer sand. My geophagus are constantly sifting the sand, and my cories like to dig in it.


I totally get the appeal of sand. It's what I would prefer if I could guarantee I'd never have to scrape algae off my glass. How do you keep your glass clean without ever getting scratches?

Is it better to get a sand with larger grains or the really fine stuff?


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## mambee (Apr 13, 2003)

I clean my glass with a credit card and I do it very carefully. I would never use a magnet cleaner. I think that larger grained sand will stay more settled and there would be less likelihood of it winding up in your filter. Also, there would be a lower probability of you trapping a grain of sand against the glass when you are cleaning it.


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## adamsfishes (Jan 29, 2016)

What you say makes a lot of sense. I'll go with a larger grain sand. Thanks.

Researching SA geos more now. I'm torn between SA and CA though. SA has many beautiful fish, lots of options. CA is cool too ... I'm a couple months away so I have some time.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

adamsfishes said:


> Researching SA geos more now. I'm torn between SA and CA though. SA has many beautiful fish, lots of options. CA is cool too ... I'm a couple months away so I have some time.


The indecision about stocking, leading up to the tank being set up is one of the joys of setting up a tank. 

Which CAs are you considering?


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## mambee (Apr 13, 2003)

The benefit of keeping SA cichlids is that they generally have much mellower personalities, which greatly increases the list of potential tankmates.


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## adamsfishes (Jan 29, 2016)

zimmy said:


> The indecision about stocking, leading up to the tank being set up is one of the joys of setting up a tank.
> 
> Which CAs are you considering?


Here is my short list of CA cichlids. None of the big aggressive ones. Some of these seem more analogous to SA fish aside from water parameters. Really liking the Thorichthys right now.



Gold Aureum (Thorichthys helleri)
Blue/Yellow Flash (Thorichthys aureus)
Spot Cheek Cichlid (Thorichthys maculipinnis / ellioti)
Yellow Dwarf (Cryptoheros nanoluteus)
Salvin's Cichlid	(Trichromis salvini)

Within CA I have same thoughts ... single species vs several of two species, or maybe a bunch of nano and 1 of each bigger species.

Starting to move some stuff around, will paint walls in a few weeks, then move some more stuff around ... might be ready to get something starting to cycle in 4-6 weeks.


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## adamsfishes (Jan 29, 2016)

Also, have to admit would love to throw an EBJD in there if I did a CA ... probably wishful thinking though.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

mambee said:


> The benefit of keeping SA cichlids is that they generally have much mellower personalities, which greatly increases the list of potential tankmates.


+1 I've kept both and definitely prefer SA tanks for that reason.


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## adamsfishes (Jan 29, 2016)

That was my initial thought as well... SA planted community. Then I discovered CA fish. So I will probably need both. :lol:


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