# Who is the better fighter?



## Red Triangle (Mar 1, 2012)

*Dempsey or Devil?*​
Jack Dempsey527.78%Red Devil1372.22%


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## Red Triangle (Mar 1, 2012)

Red Devil, or Jack Dempsey? I used to watch my step dad battle them as a kid, and it was always back and forth as to what fish would rule the big cichlid tank.  :fish:


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## FiremouthShogun (Apr 26, 2006)

How exactly would he battle them?


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## Mbunaaddict (Oct 28, 2010)

My opinion is it best to help fish thrive and live full lives. Not watch them battle and kill eachother.

I dont see the point on that mentality. It should be no different then dog or chicken fights. They are illegal for a reason. Its inhumane.


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## Mbunaaddict (Oct 28, 2010)

If all you were asking was "Who is a more aggressive cichlid?" i would have said Red Devil.


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## Adrian101 (Jan 24, 2011)

*Mbunaaddict*
Couldn't agree more.


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## Red Triangle (Mar 1, 2012)

WOW at people crying about mistreatment. If any fish ever got too badly hurt in the 100 gallon tank, my step dad would put it in it's own tank to heal and get fat. The fish "battling" each other is just a natural part of how these fish live, and that's what intrigues me about them. It shows the warrior like traits these proud fish hold in such a small body. The fighting styles are unique, and AWESOME to watch. When else would I get to see a natural pecking order of cichlids? Am I going to fly to Central America? :-/

We all love these fishies for different reasons, so let's leave it at that.

At firmouth Shogun: In the 100 gal tank we had when I was younger, we had about 8 fish that we grew from an inch long, to our Red Devil and Jack Dempsey were nearly a foot long. We had a 6 or 7" firemouth that would always battle this really thick Jewel for a section of the tank, but the Firmouth was the runt. A Leperinus that was also nearly a foot long, and survived in this tank on pure speed (was always one of my fav fish cause of how it evaded so well). There were two HUGE catfish, a Pleco that was over a foot long, and the 3 cichlids that would constantly battle for the biggest cave in the tank. These fish were the Red Devil (usually king), the Jack Dempsey, and a big Texas cichlid.

The main fight I remember from 15-20 years ago when it took place, was between the Red Devil and the Jack. The Jack was always calm until f'd with, and the red devil just kept pickin on him. When the Jack got cornered, the battled for nearly a half hour, and all of a sudden the Jack tore the top, or bottom (can't remember) lip of the devil completely off. My step dad immediately took the devil out of the tank, and put it in a lil tank pressed against the main tank, and it was funny to see the Red devil ram the glass atthe jack when it came to the side of the tank. When the devil's lip healed, and he put him back in the main tank, the devil went straight for the dempsey and beat him up for his efforts. He then had the take the main cave away from the Texas.

These are great fish, and their aggressive cohabitation is what makes me a fan. I aint buyin guppies here people.....


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## Red Triangle (Mar 1, 2012)

Mbunaaddict said:


> My opinion is it best to help fish thrive and live full lives. Not watch them battle and kill eachother.
> 
> I dont see the point on that mentality. It should be no different then dog or chicken fights. They are illegal for a reason. Its inhumane.


Inever said kill BTW, and I bet your dog is also a vegan...


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## SEAN420 (Nov 24, 2011)

lol :thumb:


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## Adrian101 (Jan 24, 2011)

All those fish in a 100 gal. That was a mistake. In nature they are never that confined so i can't see how you think its natural behaviour. My dog eats dog food, i don't borrow my neighbours doberman, lock them in a cupboard and when one has his ear torn off take them out.

_edited by MonteSS_


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## mattmean (Feb 9, 2012)

they don't fight like that in the wild because they are in a GIANT LAKE OR RIVER.....

_edited by MonteSS_


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## Mbunaaddict (Oct 28, 2010)

I dont know why you have become so defensive. I simply was stating my opinion that i dont agree with creating an environment in my fish tanks that enduces fights. Yes the natural establishment of pecking order is normal. But when you have several large preditory cichlids in a confined space they are bound to fight more than they would in the wild. I just dont agree with that.

Again it is no different then locking two dogs in a small cage or ring and forceing one of them to become dominant. Unlike humans who have the choice to get into a ring and fight, these animals are thrown into these situations un willingly.

_edited by MonteSS_


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Where are you guys getting your information? Who said these fish have a natural pecking order in the wild?


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## cage623 (Feb 2, 2008)

I could tell this was going to happen in this thread before I even opened it to read it. Threads on 'who is more aggressive/or fighting' always go this way.

There are always the two sides to this argument when it comes to cichlids.

I would say that the majority of cichlid owners (not necessarily the majority of members on forums like this) started to keep them because of their aggressive nature. And some even go to the extremes of glorifying it because they are just fish and don't seem to think it is a big deal.

Others take the opposite stand and get very upset when threads like this get started. I can easily see this view point as it gets frustrating seeing people constantly care for their fish in an unhealthy environment. Something that gets put on display constantly on forums like this. Mostly because of lack of knowledge, poor advice, or lack of money to give fish a proper tank.

Overall I would have to say that the OP is wrongfully glorifying the aggressive nature of these fish. And tells tails of a tank that is not only inappropriately stocked by recommended aggression standards but also over stocked just by the number and size of the fish. As I stated this is unfortunately way too common place in this hobby.

I am not sure what the OP is expecting by this post and needs to learn who his audience is. Most members on forums like this are apart of this community because they care for their fish and want to learn more about the proper why to care for them. So posting about fish that were beating on each other in a confined space is not going to be received well.

I must say that although I highly disagree with the idea of the post and the way these fish were kept, we still need to keep things civil and remain from the name calling. I would say if you can't discus things like adults then you are going to be blocked on the forum at some point or at least have this post locked.

-Cage


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## Red Triangle (Mar 1, 2012)

Mbunaaddict said:


> I dont know why you have become so defensive. I simply was stating my opinion that i dont agree with creating an environment in my fish tanks that enduces fights. Yes the natural establishment of pecking order is normal. But when you have several large preditory cichlids in a confined space they are bound to fight more than they would in the wild. I just dont agree with that.
> 
> Again it is no different then locking two dogs in a small cage or ring and forceing one of them to become dominant. Unlike humans who have the choice to get into a ring and fight, these animals are thrown into these situations un willingly.
> 
> No i dont have a vegan Dog or fish. I have fish that have high protein diets and sometimes get live treats. Sounds like you have something against a vegan life style. I bet you know nothing about it. How about MMA fighter Mac Danzig's. Looks like hes got a much better record than other people in this tread. I think youve got something to learn.


It was hilariously a joke from my vegan wife, who told it to me as she read your post. That being said, I also am team mates with Jake Shields, Nick and Nate Diaz (who are MUCH BETTER than Danzig) who are all vegan. I don't hate on anything, but when you say idiotic stuff like "Again it is no different then locking two dogs in a small cage or ring and forceing one of them to become dominant", I have nothing more for you.

_edited by MonteSS_


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

lol, I never pictured MMA fighters as the fish keeping types. Is Jake shields a member too  ?

I'm a big UFC buff, wish you the best of luck :thumb:


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## Red Triangle (Mar 1, 2012)

ahud said:


> lol, I never pictured MMA fighters as the fish keeping types. Is Jake shields a member too  ?
> 
> I'm a big UFC buff, wish you the best of luck :thumb:


I honestly respect and love my cichlids, and don't want any of them to die. I envision them kinda like reincarnated warriors of old, and still trying to be proud warriors in their lil fishy bodies.  They're a very noble fish IMO.


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## mattmean (Feb 9, 2012)

. If you knew the slightest of biology you'd realize many of these species don't see each other in the wild. You'd would realize the ratio of SQ footage of water to fish is exponentially greater than that in a tank. But then again when you rolling around on mat, getting your head smacked, you wouldn't remember that even if you did learn it.

_edited by MonteSS_


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Mattmean,

That is highly inappropriate. Little arguments back and forth like this are why many forums loose the really knowledgeable people.


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## mattmean (Feb 9, 2012)

Kissing up to someone who makes a foolish thread because they are in MMA doesn't help either. IMO.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

:zz:


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## kenko (Jan 19, 2012)

Jeez... Simple theoretical question and people take it so seriously (sure he talked about being a kid and watching fights - which was long ago). It's not like RedTri took a video of both fish in opposite corners of a 40 long and prior to letting them go he takes wagers through this poll. It was a theoretical question and to get into semantics is absurd.

I don't remember where, as it was about 25 years ago, but I do recall a Jack taking out a Pirahna...so my vote is for Jack.


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## bzartler86 (Dec 13, 2011)

You know what makes me sick is the people that put the fish fights up on the internet like they are proud of the fights.


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## Tiktaalik Owner (Aug 17, 2009)

Who is the better fighter: King Kong or Godzilla? _That_ is the question! http://www.moviegoods.com/movie_poster/king_kong_vs_godzilla_1963.htm



> I envision them kinda like reincarnated warriors of old ...


That's ... nifty. :thumb: Do you dress up like Napolean or General Douglas Haig before sending them into battle?


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## cage623 (Feb 2, 2008)

kenko said:


> Jeez... Simple theoretical question and people take it so seriously (sure he talked about being a kid and watching fights - which was long ago). It's not like RedTri took a video of both fish in opposite corners of a 40 long and prior to letting them go he takes wagers through this poll. It was a theoretical question and to get into semantics is absurd.


1) I would argue that this is not a simple theoretical question. The reason why people get some defensive and upset about topics like this is because they are passionate about caring for their fish and want the hobby to continue in a knowledgeable and healthy direction. Not talk about issues that glorify the mistreatment of the species they enjoy.

I will say however, that this discussion should be conducted under a more adult context, instead of name calling and using bad stereotypes that is going on with some of the member of on this thread (weather I agree with their points or not).

2) ...



> I don't remember where, as it was about 25 years ago, but I do recall a Jack taking out a Pirahna...so my vote is for Jack.


Really?!? Most knowledgeable hobbyists are going to think this sounds absurd. I would love to get into why, but that just brings me back to point number one.

-Cage


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## kenko (Jan 19, 2012)

LOL! My point was that the intent was a theoretical question, but by going into his little story and using the word "fight" rather than "tougher" or other, it opened up the topic to moral judgements. I've been fishkeeping for nearly 40 years and I've seen many things over the years whether I agree with them or not. But in the spirit of the question, I answered it.


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## Tiktaalik Owner (Aug 17, 2009)

It's an _empirical_ question, one that can only be resolved with experimentation*. That's why it's offensive. An answer depends on a series of Caligua-like exhibitions. A theoretical question would be one that can't be resolved in such a fashion. For example: Does the cross-fertility of so many CA cichlid species mean they all have a common ancestor more recent than SA cichlids (which tend to be less cross-fertile)?

*Assuming we know what "better fighter" means. A Dovii might not be a "better fighter" than a Convict; it's just so much bigger it'll eat the smaller fish. What are the necessary and sufficient conditions for X being a better fighter than Y?


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## frank1rizzo (Mar 14, 2005)

opcorn:


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## bzartler86 (Dec 13, 2011)

Tiktaalik Owner said:


> It's an _empirical_ question, one that can only be resolved with experimentation*. That's why it's offensive. An answer depends on a series of Caligua-like exhibitions. A theoretical question would be one that can't be resolved in such a fashion. For example: Does the cross-fertility of so many CA cichlid species mean they all have a common ancestor more recent than SA cichlids (which tend to be less cross-fertile)?
> 
> *Assuming we know what "better fighter" means. A Dovii might not be a "better fighter" than a Convict; it's just so much bigger it'll eat the smaller fish. What are the necessary and sufficient conditions for X being a better fighter than Y?


He's right...My jaguar is twice the size of my RD and could destroy him if one day he decided to but it doesn't make my jaguar a tougher fish than the Rd.

I've seen these threads on other sites and it's always the same stupid answers with then people arguing over pointless opinions.


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## cage623 (Feb 2, 2008)

> I've seen these threads on other sites and it's always the same stupid answers with then people arguing over pointless opinions.


Amen! As keepers of cichlids we all know they can be aggressive and that certain species are more aggressive than others. But really we should all also know that it comes down to the individual fish in most circumstances. So what is there to 'debate'? These threads are pointless and really just most of the time meant to ruffle feathers and get under people's skin.

-Cage


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## kenko (Jan 19, 2012)

I second that from my windy city brother!

Just to clarify above: I believe the reference to Caligua should've read Caligula, in reference to the tyrannical Roman Emperor. And real experimentation is not required, as there are these things called computers which one can input data, create models and test cases and produce results from. Animal Planet and History did it previously with various animals and dinosaurs as well. I'm bored now with this topic. It was fun for a while... :zz:


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

I tell ya, sometimes this board moderates itself, thanks to level headed (for the most part) and intelligent members (again, for the most part).
=D>


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## kenko (Jan 19, 2012)

LOL. Thanks for dropping by. :wink:


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## cage623 (Feb 2, 2008)

GTZ said:


> I tell ya, sometimes this board moderates itself, thanks to level headed (for the most part) and intelligent members (again, for the most part).
> =D>


Cichlid-forum.com keepin it classy! (for the most part) 
:wink:

-Cage


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## Tiktaalik Owner (Aug 17, 2009)

> The fish "battling" each other is just a natural part of how these fish live, and that's what intrigues me about them. It shows the warrior like traits these proud fish hold in such a small body. The fighting styles are unique, and AWESOME to watch. When else would I get to see a natural pecking order of cichlids? Am I going to fly to Central America? :-/


 (my emphasis)

Do you get the impression the OP is interested in computer fish programs? Watching aggressive cichlids clobber each other is "AWESOME to watch." How much more empirical can he be? I don't think his primary interest is in results; it's the thrill of battle. Defending this puerile topic on the grounds that it's some lofty, abstract, _theoretical_ issue to be discussed over espresso is disingenuous.



> And real experimentation is not required, as there are these things called computers which one can input data, create models and test cases and produce results from.


We're not talking about computer chess, where anyone can pit Fritz against Rybka or HIARCS and watch them tear into each other at a Grandmaster level. A computer simulation of a Jack Dempsey? Seriously!? Post a link. Why am I keeping these expensive real fish when I can have a rowdy virtual tank?


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## kenko (Jan 19, 2012)

OK, fine. I give up. It was an alternate humane way to figure this out. And it's not like these fights don't really happen in certain ethnic communities anyway...

Listen, I work in an interactive industry where we need to stay at least with current, if not future technology. This is not chess I'm talking about, but rather real world simulations done with the help of cichlid behaviorists (there are degree programs in fish behavior, or experts like the late George Barlow) and taxonomists that can consult on proper modelling of the fish's body structure, muscle structure, scales, jaw clamping power, fin thrust, aggression, mating rituals, interactions between species, along with observing those fish in their natural environments just doing what they do and creating algorithms that would best mimic baseline traits observed. You can program AI to also learn, and that can be tweaked and dialed in over time - however over the past few years I'm sure some one created fish AI, and I wouldn't doubt that someone has mimicked some cichlids virtually.

Virtual fish (like those screensavers) have a very very basic AI programmed for them, but I'm talking about something more robust here, however stupidly unrealistic and unprofitable it might be. Anything can be simulated today, and many things are to save costs on prototyping, safety checks, or just to figure out breaking or melting points on materials, etc...you name it it can be done - and I'm sure it has been done.

Why would you have or do anything virtual anyway, as the real thing is almost always better, no?


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## MonteSS (Dec 8, 2008)

Sorry I got to this so late guys. I had to edit some of the name calling and accusations.

Please keep it more civil in the future.

Thanks...Bill


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