# Compatibility and suggestions for 1000l tank



## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

Hello,

I plan to keep the following in a 1000l, 2m long tank:

4 Panaque L190 or L191
2-3 Platydoras costatus
3 Baryancistrus demantoides or L81

1 Apteronotus albifrons

1 Aequidens rivulatus 
1 Herichthys carpintis or cyanoguttatus
1 Hypsophrys nicaraguariensis
1 Heros severus 
(1 Archocentrus multispinosus and/or
1 Nandompsis octofasciatus or
1 Cichlasoma salvini )

The must keep fish are the catfish and the Aequidens rivulatus. The rest are up for debate wether to keep all of them, some of them or some others(open to suggestions).

Tank is filtered by 300l sump and has the potential for a lot of current. I can keep the current down for the cichlids though

Thank you very much in advance!


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

I went with the following:

1 Aequidens rivulatus (Green Terror) - A true favorite
3 Platydoras costatus
1 Glyptoperichthys joselimaianus

I am thinking of not adding any of the Central American cichlids unless they can tolerate/be happy with soft water and 6.5 ph and mainly, not harass the catfish nor the Green Terror. 
I saw Apteronotus albifrons at the shop go and nibble on other fishes and definitely did not like that. Wouldn't like it going about harassing the catfish while they hide/sleep. So from my list above, i am only left with the catfish and Green Severum. I am open to suggestions for other fish that would do well with the Green Terror and the catfish in a 1000l tank. Preferable not plant eaters as i want to plant the tank some. Green Terror, despite their reputation, tend to be pretty docile fish if not challenged

Thank you very much in advance!


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

I proceeded with:
1 Herichthys elioti
1 Hypsophrys nicaraguensis
1 Archocentrus multispinosus 
1 more Platydoras armatulus(costatus is the older, wrong name)

They are not fighting but there is some dominance order with Nicaragua chasing Green Terror and Green Terror chasing the other two, mainly the Rainbow which is the smallest in the tank at 4cm. Most of the time, they can all wander calmly though. Maybe the Rainbow is chased a little too much at times, I think this should resolve soon but I would like your opinion on wether this mix should work well long term. I was wary about adding a Rainbow but a person I know with much experience in keeping cichlids, suggested it should be fine in that large a tank and added while everyone is still young. The Rainbow doesn't seem overly stressed and does not avoid the other cichlids, it goes right with them, swimming close to them when they let it. It has colored nicely since being added to the tank.

I also plan on adding a Heros efasciatus or H. notatus or H. "Rotkeil", and Apteronotus albifrons as my friends insist it's not hurt in other fish. Will this work?

Then I will only add a small group group of Panaque nigrolineatus and other plecos. Thankfully, the cichlids ignore the catfish and the pleco, eating with them peacefully from the same tablet/food and passing right by the without being annoyed by their presence. I won't have any breeding pairs of cichlids, only of plecos/catfish, so I hope aggression will be very low in the tank

Here is a photo of my Green Terror the day I added it in the tank


It has colored much more since then 

And one of the Platydoras armatulus 


Thank you very much in advance!


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Kostas G said:


> I would like your opinion on wether this mix should work well long term.


IMO has decent chance of working out well in a tank that size.
Difficult to say whether or not the rainbow will end up getting bullied excessively( ?). IME, they did much better with out other CA/SA cichlids in the tank.
I'd definitely add at least the severum, as IMO and IME, it is often more difficult to make a very low number of cichlids in a tank work out well in the long run.
The knife fish, not too familiar with them as I have never owned one, so really can't say too much about them. I would tend to think, if there are enough cichlids in the tank, it would get left alone for the most part (?).


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

Thank you very much for your reply! I appreciate it  
Great to hear it should work out! The bullying of the rainbow has mostly stopped and is only rare now, mostly during the feeding time. The Rainbow has no problem eating more than its share though... Now the Green Terror is the most bullied one but it is managing it progressively better. Nicaragua rules the tank. And the catfish, the these are left alone by all, they even climb on the Nicaragua and eat alongside it.

I am tracking a Green/Turquoise Severum or a Rotkeil to add, whatever I find with impressive colors and neon colored, worm like lines on the cheeks. It has proven impossible to find right now(only the red spotted is common here) but hopefully soon. And I think that will be it as far as cichlids go, I want them to all have an area to call home and not get stressed by the presence of the others. I would love to have a Herichthys cyanoguttatus or carpintis, whichever gets smaller, but it's too much I think for this tank. I also don't want to risk the catfish and the current cichlids are catfish friendly so far. 
I would like your opinion on this.

I will probably not add the knifefish, I have read both good and horror stories with them and I think there are too many fishes swimming already. For their adult size


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

Here are a few photos:

The tank


At dusk


Nicaragua (male, right?)




Green Terror (female, right?)




Glyptoperichthys joselimaianus


No fish has gotten fin damage since added to the tank. The Green Terror is healing it's damaged fins as I got it right after import and it arrived somewhat beaten up(better than the others from that import though). The rainbow and firemouth are healing from a very light, barely visible haze on one of their eyes, they are getting better and better. The Rainbow came like that, the firemouth could have gotten it when it was netted at the shop


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## Mr Chromedome (Feb 12, 2013)

The Nic does appear to be male, and the Terror does look female. The genus on that Pleco is changed, it is now _Pterygoplichthys joselimaianus_. I have two myself, purchased under the wrong common name. Did not plan on getting a fish that will reach 12 inches. Watch out for mild aggression by that Pleco.

Very interesting piece of wood, I like the look of the tank.


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

That's great, as I planned them to be  I am not too fond of the hump on male Greeb Terrors and I like the bulky, rounded face of male Nicargua better.

I didn't remember the name change, thank you! I always liked this species and with a 2m tank, I decided to have it. I will be adding a group of Panaque nigrolineatus as soon as I find them as well.
You bought it as clown pleco? That's one of the annoying things of common names. I am searching for some true clown plecos(Panaque maccus) for my other tank and can't really find any lately, they are all P. joselimaianus.

Thank you!  I have 180kg of tropical wood and the best part of 50kg of basaltic and slate stones in the tank.


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

Would adding a Herichthys carpintis in addition to the Severum be ok or would I risk aggression to the cichlids or to the catfish? Would all cichlids have enough of a territory to be happy when adult or would it be too much?

Thank you very much in advance!


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

I am after a female H. carpintis, not male. Are they well behaved like my other species?


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Kostas G said:


> I am after a female H. carpintis, not male. Are they well behaved like my other species?


Never owned a H. carpintis so difficult for me to say. Have had plenty of H. cyanaguttatus over the years, and know that fish quite well. IMO, an H. cyanaguttatus would be a step up in aggression level from the rest of your stock, and are fairly comparable to Veija and Amphilophus in terms of aggression level. But from what I read on the internet, H.carpinitis is usually seen as somewhat smaller and less aggressive then H. cyanaguttataus, though I would still tend to think it's typically a more aggressive species then most of your stock (?) 
Even with less aggressive species, there is still chance that some one won't get along requiring something to be removed at some point in time. I think you would be better off considering fish like festivum, chocolate cichlid. Or even a smaller pike cichlid like a belly crawler or saxatilis-type. For another CA, some of the less aggressive Cryptoheros . Pearsi and bocourti have the reputation of being mild mannered but are very large fish.


Kostas G said:


> Would all cichlids have enough of a territory to be happy when adult or would it be too much?


Unrealistic to think that all cichlids will own territory from each other. Some may own a space from all or some, at times but generally it's a pecking order. 
IMO, 5- 6 cichlids is at or near the minimum to make a community work. Most people that have successful tanks stock much higher then this. Low enough number, and even less aggressive species are more inclined to single out somebody or even attempt to claim the entire tank and eliminate all of it's competition. Less is better up to a point.


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

Thank you very much for your reply! I went with a baby Herichthys carpintis that i hope should turn female and was a rather passive and peaceful one compared to some of the very aggressive other babies. Of course this can change over time but lets hope it doesn't. So far its great and sometimes follows along other fish like my rainbow or firemouth. I am surprised at how big a food piece it can shallow, almost as big as its head or belly! Its around 4cm right now...

From the ones you mentioned, i do like the chocolate cichlid and have had it in mind, but wasn't sure if it would do well with the rest but also never thought i should add more than the cichlids i had mentioned that i had in mind. So, do you think things would be better for all the cichlids if the final stockist was to be:

1 Aequidens rivulets
1 Hypsophrys nicaraguensis
1 Thorichthys eliot
1 Herichthys carpintis
1 Archocentrus multifasciatus

1 Heros severus
1 Hypselecara temporalis
1 Nandompsis octofasciatus

4 Panaque nigrolineatus (most probably L190, grow to be around 35cm)
1 Pterygoplichthys joselimaianus
4 Platydoras costatus
2-3 other small pleco species

Would you think such a stocking would work better than without the Hypselecara and Nandompsis? To my eyes, that would be too much i think when they all grow up but thats just the way i imagine it, i probably have seen higher stocking levels without it seeming too unnatural but i generally like to give my fish the best and keep the stocking levels on the lower side(plecos/catfish are a must to me)

Thank you very much in advance


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

Ah, I forgot 1 Guianacara geayi. Would that be compatible as well?

I was thinking if it would also be possible to have the smaller cichlid species like the Rainbow or Guianacara(or even Thorichthys) in breeding pairs without them causing havoc for no reason or risking damage to them or the other fish, and especially the catfish/plecos. I think even these would be problematic but maybe not so much if they spawn in concealed tight spots? Not sure, would like your opinion on this matter.

The Catfish and plecos I hold especially dear always, since they well outlive any cichlid(30-60years is normal life span for them) and are pretty interactive and clever(of course I love the cichlids and have tons of character too), so if you think that any of the mentioned species would be a problem or breeding pairs would risk aggression towards the catfish, please let me know to avoid it  I have seen many calm and peaceful carpintis around and that is the only reason I went for one of them.

So far so good, the cichlids respect the catfish and ignore them/take care not to damage them during feeding from the same food piece...

Thank you very much in advance!


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Kostas G said:


> Would you think such a stocking would work better than without the Hypselecara and Nandompsis?


Difficult to say.
IME, a chocolate much more mild mannered fish then a JD.
Aggression is relative. How you label a fish "aggressive', "mild mannered" ect. is really in comparison to other species. All these cichlids are generally aggressive compared to small community fish. Fish like nics and JD are typically less aggressive then most of the large CA......but IME can be very aggressive fish at times. GT as well.
I think when you stock something like a rainbow cichlid.....you want to try and avoid too many 'medium aggressive' cichlids. Nics and GT already fall in this category. JD would be another.
Severum and chocalate cichlid, in most situations, usually rather peaceful compared to CA cichlids.


Kostas G said:


> Ah, I forgot 1 Guianacara geayi. Would that be compatible as well?


Not personally familiar with them as I have never owned one. From what I have seen and know of them, a mild mannered SA. Sort of think they wouldn't do as well as a severum with rough company.... very seldom see them in tanks with CA cichlids.


Kostas G said:


> I was thinking if it would also be possible to have the smaller cichlid species like the Rainbow or Guianacara(or even Thorichthys) in breeding pairs without them causing havoc for no reason or risking damage to them or the other fish, and especially the catfish/plecos. I think even these would be problematic but maybe not so much if they spawn in concealed tight spots? Not sure, would like your opinion on this matter.


Yes, it's certainly possible.
It's also very possible, at least as large adults, that they wouldn't have the capability to own the space. A full grown male nic would be a formidable enemy. Even owning a small space, won't come for free. 
IME, rainbow cichlids had no where close to the capability of owning territory in the company of larger CA. In small tanks with small community fish I witnessed rainbows breed many times......and was shocked  at how a CA cichlid could breed, claim so little space with out any real competitors and virtually non-aggressive. There is always some friction between plecos and breeding cichlids, even if it is not serious, though I think the main threat for some of these cichlids would be it's inability to stop the plecos from eating there eggs/wrigglers.


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

No JD then, never was a priority. Probably Herichthys carpintis will be in this category as well, but hopefully it's a female. GT i hope is a female as well. That will probably allow the male Nic to be the ruler which so far is. I can see what you mean that they can be aggressive at times. The Nic gets pretty crazy sometimes when it gets too much of its food stolen by the others and tries to clear half of the aquarium around the food. Of course he can't, and accepts that. He also seldom chases the smaller fish away, only the bigger ones. And never minds the catfish. Thankfully, the majority of the time or almost always, he displays the kind of aggression a Microgeophagus altispinosa shows: pushes the other fish away without biting.

I could go with a female chocolate if you think adding it would be good for the peace of the tank. Isn't it too big a fish in addition to the others?

I have heard they do well in CA communities but don't know much either. Are rainbows better able to protect themselves than Guianacara? I am mostly worried of their small final size. Rainbows supposedly get bigger and up to 17cm in nature. Any way to help mine grow to bigger adult size rather than the 10cm average I hear?

Would they still breed without being able to hold the space? What do you mean that it won't come for free? That they will be picked on/damaged by the proper ruler of the area?

It's great how the rainbows bred so peacefully for you! Did they breed on aquatic plants or closer to the bottom? Mine likes to hang around the floating plants and wood tangle.

Yeah, this friction is I am afraid about. Both the Platydoras abd plecos are pretty good at sneaking in and eating everything, which I don't mind much but the cichlids mind. My experience with the smaller Microgeophagus and Apistogramma has not been very good. The catfish get bitten fins and the breeding cichlids often die out of the blue(stress?). If the rainbow breeds on live plants at the water surface, it might be worth getting a pair and breeding it but otherwise, I do see friction with the plecos coming. Would you think it's wise to do it or asking for trouble?


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Kostas G said:


> Are rainbows better able to protect themselves than Guianacara?


I really couldn't say (?). 
CA are often very competitive with other CA. A rainbow is timid and backs down easily, and IME gets no free ride. It's seen as one of them even though it poses no real threat. IME it got bullied excessively, especially by firemouths, and eventually by all the CA in the tank. I don't think being at it's larger size will make any difference. Generally cichlids tend to focus more on other cichlids of the same or similar weight class.
When it comes to dominance of a tank, there can be friction between any cichlid that is in contention for 'top dog'. Of course I dont' see any likely issue here, with a rainbow or Guinacara .


Kostas G said:


> Would they still breed without being able to hold the space? What do you mean that it won't come for free?


No, a substrate spawner needs to be able to own at least some space, to the exclusion of all other tankmates, in order to successfully breed. Generally won't lay eggs with out owning the space first, and if they can't defend, the eggs will usually get eaten quickly.
Initially the space is unlikely to be claimed with out at least some battle, however minor or violent. It's got to be "backed up". Can't be running away from the boss of the tank, otherwise the necessary territory isn't being maintained. There is no respect for the boundaries of a territory with out at least some threat of being hit or struck. Some degree of trespassing is often tolerated, but if one of the pair goes towards the trespassing fish, it's got to be on it's way.


Kostas G said:


> Both the Platydoras abd plecos are pretty good at sneaking in and eating everything, which I don't mind much but the cichlids mind. My experience with the smaller Microgeophagus and Apistogramma has not been very good. The catfish get bitten fins and the breeding cichlids often die out of the blue(stress?). Would you think it's wise to do it or asking for trouble?


All these cichlids are very hardy compared to some of the smaller dwarf SA. Doubt the bottom feeders would ever stress them too much.....though some of there cichlid tank mates might (?).
Wise or asking for trouble? 1001 possibilities. I think it's less then 50/50 whether the rainbows would even be able to do the deed in the presence of this company; and even then much more likely when all are at a young and small size. The Thorichthys, IMO, a much better chance of breeding. Very possible, especially in the size of your tank, they wouldn 't claim too much space and the aggression would be primarily some threatening along the borders of the territory. But with any substrate spawner, it's very hit or miss with a variety of factors/variables.


Kostas G said:


> Did they breed on aquatic plants or closer to the bottom?


Close to the bottom. Most often on the corner of the tank on glass; a few times on flat rock in the middle of the tank. 
Few substrate spawners lay eggs closer to the surface. Had convicts last year, lay eggs at the very top corner of the tank  a few times....but it's rather uncommon and unusual.
I lay a flat rock into the back corners of the tank. It's always the preferred spawning site of CA and at least puts the breeding territory to one side of the tank, rather then in the middle.


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

Thank you very much!

My rainbow is seen as the good boy in the block, everyone lets it hang alongside without getting annoyed. They have learnt it will never try to bite them and ignore it now. The firemouth also never tries to bite nor drive anyone away and it sometimes get a free ride as well. Not during feeding time though! It's very fast and effective at stealing food...
Things would probably be tougher for both if they tried to challenge or hold space from the bigger ones.

Rainbow is more of a top dweller for me, it spends most of its time on the upper half of the tank, above the woods and in between the floating plants where it feeds on semi-decayed plant matter. That's why I asked if it spawns high up, as it's very seldom seen close to the substrate and always nibbles up, very rarely down. It sleeps in the wood tangle, usually on the woods.

Guianacara may have a harder time being a bottom dweller and having a smaller final size? Or also seen as non-threat and left wander everywhere? Do you have any especially colorful smallish(10-15cm) and peaceful cichlids in mind that would make good additions? They have to not hybridize with my current ones and be gentle to the catfish

Thank you very much for the details on breeding! It will probably be too stressful an experience to try to keep the Nic or GT away, or the huge Panaque, unless they spawn near the surface or in a tight spot the big ones can't fit well. It's maybe wise to postpone any pairing till I move house and build a much larger tank with ample space for territories and more tight, secluded spots

Haha, very nice, laying on glass and at the top must have been fun to watch

Do you think the it would be better long term with the current stocking of cichlids(GT, Nic, Rainbow, Firemouth, Herichthys carpintis) plus the Severum or with the further addition of a female chocolate cichlid? The tank is 2m X 60cm wide

Thank you very much in advance!


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Kostas G said:


> any especially colorful smallish(10-15cm) and peaceful cichlids in mind that would make good additions? They have to not hybridize with my current ones and be gentle to the catfish


Some of the less aggressive Cryptoheros species such as C. nanoluteus or Hondurean Red Point. Though there is possibility they could hybirdize as ALL CA cichlids can potentially hybirdize with another CA cichlid. Festivum would fit your description for the most part. Pretty fish ( though not especially colorful). Usually doesn't get much larger then 15 cm. Top dwelling even at a young size.



Kostas G said:


> plus the Severum or with the further addition of a female chocolate cichlid?


Yes, from my perspective I think you would be better off adding both the severum and the chocolate. In the future, if you should have to remove a fish for what ever reason, or a fish could die for what ever reasons......it still leaves you with a decent number of cichlids. IMO, 7-8 cichlids in a 7 ft. tank is not heavy stocking at all.


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

Thank you for the great suggestions! Cryptoheros nanoluteus and C. cutteri seem quite nice! Is cutteri as peaceful as nanoluteus or considered aggressive? How are these when breeding?
I will try to find an especially nice Mesonauta and probably get a pair of these since they are small, top dwellers and relatively peaceful. Do you maybe see a problem with a pair of these trying to defend themselves against the big ones or problems with damaging the catfish?

Thank you! The catfish and big plecos will contribute significantly to the bioload as well but since you don't find it heavy stocking ,I will add a female chocolate too as you suggest


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Kostas G said:


> Cryptoheros nanoluteus and C. cutteri seem quite nice! Is cutteri as peaceful as nanoluteus or considered aggressive? How are these when breeding?


I've never owned either. But I have had _Cryptoheros spilurus_, which is a very similar species to _C. cutteri_. IME, they are almost as aggressive as convicts. Fairly similar. Everything I have read about cutteri, seems to indicate they are virtually the same as spilurus. Of course they can vary dependant on regional variant and from one individual to another. Everything I have read about nanoluteus, seems to indicate that they may be the least aggressive of any of the Cryptoheros.


Kostas G said:


> Do you maybe see a problem with a pair of these trying to defend themselves against the big ones or problems with damaging the catfish?


No, I would not forsee any aggression problems with the festivum as all that likely. IME, there very mild mannered. If they are unable to claim space, they probably won't attempt to.


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

I just read a spawning report for cutters and they do sound quite aggressive when spawning! I will prefer the nanoluteus then and maybe try for a pair. Would that be ok? I am thinking of pairing the rainbow too if that won't be risking their integrity, I mean, these are all small fish and unable to fend off a Green Terror which has already realized his power and is almost top dog(sometimes it's him, others the Nic, still mostly the Nic is the most respected cichlid in a he tank). But maybe they take advantage of tiny crevices in the woods or rockwork and make it work without having to deal with the big ones.

Good to know the festivum know to keep themselves out of harm's way and won't be aggressive to the catfish. Sound like a great choice


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

How compatible are chocolate cichlids, Severum and Mesonauta festivum with the rest of my stock in terms of water parameter preferences? Don't these prefer soft water and warmer temperatures than the rest? Or would all be happy with pH between 6.5-7.5 and temperature 24-27.5C ?


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Kostas G said:


> Or would all be happy with pH between 6.5-7.5 and temperature 24-27.5C ?


 Yes, they will be more then fine with that. Unless you have wild caught fish and know specifically what body of water it comes from AND specifically what the water parameters are from this location, only then maybe, it could make sense to alter the tap water. And pH is seldom the more significant; dissolved waste, nitrate and hardness almost always more significant then pH. The cichlids are just as hardy and adaptable as your bottom feeders. If anything, your nic is probably farthest away in terms of pH. Hypothetically, it could originate from lake Nicaragua ( pH 7.8 -8.8 ) or lake Managua (pH 9.5). But ignore that :lol: , as it will do more then fine. Major water quality factor is dissolved waste and your water change and maintenance to keep it in check.


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

Most plecos will be wild caught, so I will prefer a medium hardness(100μS) and ph ~6.8. Right now I have them at 160μS and ph 6.8-7.2. I also think hardness is the important parameter. pH largely depends on it and changing hardness with the addition of RO water to tap water, is safe. Messing with acids and bases or altering the salt composition of the water to change pH or hardness is way more dangerous and bad for fish health than any possible benefit.

Thank you very for confirming my thoughts. Most of these cichlids are bred and not wild caught and seem happy with the current conditions. The Nic is the most intensely colored one from all 
So the current cichlids don't really need that hard water to thrive and are fine with that? Cryptoheros nanoluteus too?

I have a 300l sump for filtration with a sedimentation chamber and many liters of biofiltration and mechanical following it. Panaque are very messy, wood eating plecos. But they are my favorite. And they only go with heavy filtration and siphoning/water changes). I cleaned the filter last weekend and ended up doing a 450l water change to siphon well and wash the filtration materials...

How do you know dissolved waste levels are ok? I keep nitrates below 12.5ppm but dissolved waste, I don't know. Sometimes there is a lot of sawdust(from the plecos) circulating around, when the cichlids go digging or making a bed to sleep in the calmer areas


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Kostas G said:


> a medium hardness(100μS) and ph ~6.8. Right now I have them at 160μS and ph 6.8-7.2.


 I would have thought that 100 -160_uS_ would actually be considered fairly soft....equating to around 2-3 dGH. Tap water here, according to the city website, is 468 _uS_ and around 10 dGH and is considered only moderately hard. Zero problems keeping and maintaining chocalates, festvum, sevs, GTs and certainly no problem getting sevs or GTs to breed ( and _Andinoacara rivulatus_ comes from very, very soft waterhttp://www.cichlidae.com/species.php?id=4).


Kostas G said:


> So the current cichlids don't really need that hard water to thrive and are fine with that? Cryptoheros nanoluteus too?


If it is remains stable, should be fine. Nanoluteus typically comes from softer water then nics or rainbows.


Kostas G said:


> How do you know dissolved waste levels are ok? I keep nitrates below 12.5ppm but dissolved waste, I don't know.


 All we really have is nitrate level as a general indicator.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Kostas G said:


> So the current cichlids don't really need that hard water to thrive and are fine with that?


It is my opinion that if you can maintain stable water chemistry, should not matter much, if at all. But here were doing the reverse. IME ,in our water, aquarium strain blue acara, GT, sev, oscar ect. do no better or worse then hard water CA .For what it's worth, carpintis, Thorichthys, nic and rainbow all typically come from much harder water then what you have. As an example to show, this article on salvini, of which it is found with all species of Thorichthys http://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=109 From relatively soft, 8 dGH to extremely hard, 50+ dGH. Of course relatively soft is only 'soft' in comparison. Still much harder water then the so called 'hard' water of lake Malawi (4-6 dGH). Other cities and places have much softer or even much harder water then we do.......but I don't believe they have any more or less success keeping and breeding CA cichlids.


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

Thank you, good to know that this medium-soft water is ok for all my cichlids! My Nic has great coloration and seems happy thankfully.
Nitrates are always below 12.5ppm with my water change schedule and plants. I try to keep the sawdust at low levels as well though it's always present in various amounts.

My baby Herichthys carpintis is chasing the Raindow big time now that it has grown to be 2/3rds the size of Rainbow. GT breaks up the chase sometimes. It's not causing much damage, only a tear or two which heal overnight but it worries me what it will do when bigger... Will it calm down as it grows or get worse? I mean when bigger and it's "rivals" are the Nic, GT and Chocolate. I see my other cichlids have it figured out and only the firemouth gets chased badly from GT during feeding time, but I think this will stop when their size difference increases, as they are close size wise right now


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Kostas G said:


> My baby Herichthys carpintis is chasing the Raindow big time now that it has grown to be 2/3rds the size of Rainbow. GT breaks up the chase sometimes. It's not causing much damage, only a tear or two which heal overnight but it worries me what it will do when bigger... Will it calm down as it grows or get worse?


No real way to predict the future. Many stages a tank will go through.
I have had tanks, where the level of aggression seems to change by the hour!
One thing for sure, the dynamics will change one way or another. Over time, it always does.
Will the rainbow always get picked on by somebody? Get better, get worse? There is not any sure way to predict the future, though very early stages might be some indication (?).
Much older fish, IME, tend to mellow out considerably towards most of their tank mates........ with the exception being a major rival; just seems to heat up more and more over time (eg. two rival male CA).
If anything, these early stages at least gives you an indication that even so called "medium aggression" CA are still very aggressive fish compared to most fish kept in aquaria.


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

I think the Rainbow should be fine as it will be the smallest and is a non-competitive cichlid. They generally leave it alone and don't go for a bite against it(except the also small Green Texas which sees it as a rival at this stage). GT seems to have the Rainbow under her protection and intervenes to break the chase. I think the Firemouth will also be left alone as the more aggressive species get larger and no longer see it as a rival. I mostly worry about Green Texas interaction with GT, Nic, Severum and Chocolate, which will be similar size, big fish. We will see, as you say, how they interact. So far GT has no rival, just barely sees one in firemouth but she should grow out of it once the size difference gets bigger.
And as Green Texas grows bigger, it should see various fishes as possible rivals, just hope they don't get hurt by it in the process. It does have mellowed some with the Rainbow, let's see how it develops as it grows. It sure is beautiful and growing up very fast!!

Yes it does is interesting to see how such a tiny fish can have the will and speed to chase a bigger one! When I was starting the hobby 14 years ago, I added a tiny firemouth (2-3cm) in a tank of almost adult Microgeophagus altispinosa, Pearl gourami, Platydoras costatus and Panaque maccus. Well, within minutes of being introduced, it wreaked havoc, biting everyone in the tank.... Not knowing much and fearing for the others, I gave it away the nex day. I don't know if it would have calmed down later but it was quite aggressive and a successful biter for his size. So I got an idea back then.. My current firemouth is nothing like that one. Never bites and never chases anything. A truly gentle fish


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

A few pictures of some of the inhabitants

Hypsophrys nicaraguensis - Nic




Herichthys carpintis και Andinoacara rivulatus


Platydoras armatulus


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

Can i add Ctenolucius hujeta along with my current stock or will i be risking problems with them or a fish being eaten(when all are adult i mean)? How big a fish will a Ctenolucius try to eat?
Would Chalceus macrolepidotus be a better choice? Or should i not add any fish like these along with the cichlids?

Thank you very much in advance!


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

Apteronotus albifrons remains in the list of contenders as well if it won't be a problem for the smaller species (Cryptoheros nanoluteus, Archocentrus multispinosus, etc). From what i find, most don't cause problems with aggression or bitting.


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

I decided to go with 2 Apteronotus albifrons that i think are of different sex judging from their conspecific behaviour at the shop's tank. So far so good with them and the cichlids and they have avoided getting bitten despite their small size and some efforts by the cichlids when i introduced them(the knifefish were detecting them lunging at them and just kept the minimum distance required for the lunge to fail, pretty impressive). After those few initial efforts, they have left them alone though. Thankfully, the aggression/chasing between the knifefish is minimal.

Nic is started to show everyone who's the boss, and has bitten most of the other cichlids but without causing anything more than mucus damage or superficial scale damage. It pulled a scale loose from firemounth's belly and bit Herichthys carpintis right on the head, between the eyes, raising a couple of scales/pulling them loose. The eyes are fine though and the skin does not appear to be anything more than superficially damaged, i think all should heal very fast and fully. 
Rainbow has learnt how to stay undamaged and firemouth has learnt how to keep his tail undamaged as well, so damaged fins are rare now. The pleco and Platydoras have learned how to stay undamaged too. I think Herichthys was too sure of himself and thats why it got this surprise bite on the head. Green terror has calmed down a lot too and is gaining nice, impressive colors. The fins are still slowly healing from when i got it, as they had a lot of damage back then.

I am contemplating adding the salvini from my other tank to the big one. Would this be good or increase aggression and cause problems? Salvini has impressive teeth compared to my other cichlids, which mostly lack them and thus a bite doesn't cause much damage. The salvini on the other hand, can tear apart an anubia or vallisneria leaf while ''attacking'' a food stick. Would sure do much damage to any fin it decided to attack, or worse, body damage. It has fitted ok in my other tank and is an interesting fish. I plan to upgrade to a 400l tank at some point in the following years but till then, i probably cannot add any other cichlid or dither in my other tank. If its for the better for the salvini AND the inhabitants of my big tank, i could move it there but would like opinions and experiences on this.

I am still waiting for the chocolate cichlid, Mesonauta, Cryptoheros nanoluteus and Green/Rotkeil Severum, haven't found any of them yet. The Panaque L27 and Baryancistrus L81 will be coming in mid-December and will add them either then or mid-January  
Any advise on feeding plecos in a cichlid tank would be most appreciated. My Pterygoplichthys joselimaianus is not willing to claim food from the Platydoras nor the cichlids, so he is mostly on what algae grows, wood, plants(unfortunately, but not too much) and fruits/veggies i offer. I am trying offering ground tablets to increase the time food is available for him to scoop, i think its partially working but not well enough. Tablets don't last at all, either a cichlid claims it whole or Platydoras are all over it and the place doesn't go claim it, even though he could if he wanted.

Thank you very much in advance!


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Kostas G said:


> I am contemplating adding the salvini from my other tank to the big one. Would this be good or increase aggression and cause problems? Salvini has impressive teeth compared to my other cichlids, which mostly lack them and thus a bite doesn't cause much damage. The salvini on the other hand, can tear apart an anubia or vallisneria leaf while ''attacking'' a food stick. Would sure do much damage to any fin it decided to attack, or worse, body damage. It has fitted ok in my other tank and is an interesting fish. I plan to upgrade to a 400l tank at some point in the following years but till then, i probably cannot add any other cichlid or dither in my other tank. If its for the better for the salvini AND the inhabitants of my big tank, i could move it there but would like opinions and experiences on this.


There is no way to predict the future with any certainty. Many, many possible outcomes. It's a roll of the dice and IMO, a very good chance that a salvini would end up being the most aggressive fish in your tank. IMO, with your stock list, a large male would almost certainly dominate and become "top dog". Looking at your salvini again, I'm not so sure it has a clear dorsal spot/blotch ....so, not so sure it is a female, as I was initially. I've had salvnis going on 15 years now, and IME male salvini generally don't make good tank mates with other CA over the longer term. Even females can be very aggressive at times, though IME have always been considerably less so then males (females were usually at there most aggressive when paired up with a male). Personally I wouldn't try to house them with a rainbow cichlid.....but how things end up turning out really depends on a lot of variables and particular circumstances. I think it would be much better for the salvini to be in the bigger tank with numerous other cichlid tank mates.......but not so certain it would better for the other cichlid inhabitants.
If you are going to try it, have a back up plan and consider that at some later period of time you may end up having to remove the salvini or a picked on fish.


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

With those teeth and a good chance of ending up the most aggressive in the tank, i would say its an unwanted tankmate for my big tank. At least my current cichlids are more or less toothless and a bite doesn't do much more than tear a soft membrane or pull a scale. I am sure salvini can cut a chunk of fin or flesh with a bite, it cuts chunks out of hard Valisneria and Anubia barteri var. barter adult leafs every times it lunges to catch a food piece close to them. The one time it bit me, it did tear the skin a bit. 
With what do salvini make good tankmates?

Regarding the rainbow, the small texas is the one that has given it the hardest time. But its learning to avoid the bites. The rest of the fish don't annoy it now. The firemouth is a daredevil in its interactions with the top dogs, Nicaragua and Green Terror, but its slowly getting accepted more and more by them. Its commonly in harm's way though, just lightly thankfully.
The Apteronotus are staying in tip top shape and are messed up with. They don't annoy anyone either. I am amazed by their response time which is faster than the cichlids bite, thus any try is avoided with ease.

Would a shoal of 6 Chalceus macrolepidotus help with aggression issues in my big tank or would they just be ignored like Apteronotus are due to being of a different family? Would they be too much along with the rest of my stocking? 
I am still searching for the rest of the planned cichlid inhabitants, hopefully may get some of them in December. I definitely do think that the presence of another species the size of rainbow and the size of firemouth would help with the currently, relatively slight aggression issues, but nothing so far. I would add another rainbow but i am not sure if it will try to hold its own if paired, in which case it would lose quick, and probably end up disfigured. Its currently ignored by the big ones due to being extremely friendly to them


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Kostas G said:


> With those teeth and a good chance of ending up the most aggressive in the tank, i would say its an unwanted tankmate for my big tank. At least my current cichlids are more or less toothless and a bite doesn't do much more than tear a soft membrane or pull a scale. I am sure salvini can cut a chunk of fin or flesh with a bite, it cuts chunks out of hard Valisneria and Anubia barteri var. barter adult leafs every times it lunges to catch a food piece close to them. The one time it bit me, it did tear the skin a bit.
> With what do salvini make good tankmates?


Your right about salvini packing a powerful punch for a fish it's size. Paul Loiselle once nicknamed it a "pocket battleship". But having visible teeth that protrude past the lip doesn't really mean too much. It's quite typical of young salvini around the 4" size, especially males, to have two large teeth protruding past the lip. Soon enough they will break them somewhere.......never seen or had a full grown adult processing these teeth. Your other cichlids are anything but toothless; it's just that the teeth do not protrude past the lip, so they are not as visible. If you have ever seen pictures of cichlid skeletons you can see quite clearly that the teeth are still quite large. 
Secondly, the size of teeth are fairly much over rated, as weapons for fish. Scale is made of bone. Large teeth against a wall of bone......generally the large teeth are going to loose and break. It's really the bony part of the lip and the force applied, that can do damage.


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

Haha, pocket battleship indeed when it wants to! And its always alert.
It has many visible teeth, inside its mouth, not just 2. And it crunches the catfish tabs(!) instead of eating them as they slowly dissolve like most cichlids do. 
I do have seen cichlid skeletons and do see the teeth in my GT's and Nic's mouth, but they are quite tiny, useful for holding on but not for cutting. I also never feel their teeth when i feed them, they are gentle.
I agree that its the force applied that does the damage and the same cichlid can either do nothing or quite a bit of damage with a bite. Some ''bites'' are just grazes to get the other fish outa there..some other bites are to do damage. To those other bites, scales are not enough protection as they are caught in the mouth and pulled/shredded away. If a small texas that appears toothless(though adults sure are not) can do that with ease to a similar sized or even bigger cichlid, i imagine salvini could pack a much bigger punch with a bite.
Its also the attitude i am afraid. Salvini does occasionally bite the catfish/pleco, though very little. Each bite results in damage.
My other cichlids in the big tank do not bite the catfish, they either push them away or give them priority. Also a bite does not result to damage, especially not to hard fin rays.
Maybe salvini learns the ways of the other cichlids and gets less aggressive due to the low aggression level in the tank, as GT has done? Maybe he also ignores the catfish due to other cichlids being present? Or maybe he wrecks havoc in there.
Your thoughts are much appreciated as you have much much more experience in keeping cichlids and knowing their behaviour than i do and you have helped me a great(huge) deal in making a combination with the cichlids i like, that works!

Btw, I finally found a Severum ''Rotkeil'', so the stocking is going according to the plan. Its a baby, only 3cm, yet its not harassed by anyone. I have also added 4 Trachelyopterus insignis and 2 Megalechis thoracata(these are also 3-4cm), so i am now only waiting for the plecos and the 3 cichlid species we talked about(C. nanoluteus, Chocolate and Mesonauta)


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

The plecos and Mesonauta have finally arrived, i am getting them in today.

The fish in the tank are cohabiting well and only minor chases occur now and then. Herrichthys fights with Thorichthys but damage is minimal despite locking mouths often. Some missing scales initially but lately the damages have ceased and its more threat and an occasional mouth locking than anything more. The bigger cichlids often break their fight too.
Boss of the tank is Nicaragua. It claims half to 2/3rds of the tank as times and none disputes it. Its very tolerant though and only rarely starts chasing everyone out.

I am still thinking of moving the salvini to my bigger tank. It still spends its day mostly hiding in my other tank where the only tankmates are catfish, and its a really beautiful cichlid that its a shame to feel insecure just because there are no other fish moving around. I think it has now learnt that fish are not a threat to it like in the tank i got it for, where living well meant remaining the top dog of other aggressive fish. It cohabits ok even with my clown pleco which is a 7-8cm pleco, nothing big. Would it be safe long term to add it in the bigger tank now that some tank mates are of comparable size and nicaragua considerably bigger? Do salvini claim a certain hole/area as hideout or do they swim about like most other cichlids?
My main concern right now are the Megalechis which are currently only 4-5cm long, the Severum which is 4-5cm in diameter and my rainbow which is 6-7 cm(everyone leaves it alone the last couple of months). My other cichlids do not try to prey on them. They only initially tried a little but within a couple hours stopped, with no incident(a little yelling goes a long way, they don't like to displease you like a dog...). Also the new fish and Mesonauta(5-6cm) will get in today. Should i wait a day or more for them to settle(especially the small Mesonauta) before i add the salvini or is it good to add it in with the rest? When salvini gets in, will it try to boss the tank right away and prey on the small ones or try to ''blend in'' peacefully? From what i have seen so far with my others, if the initial reaction to small fish does not succeed, they see them as tankmates and respect them from then on. Of course none of the others is salvini. But even salvini learnt to ignore clown pleco in my small tank, though it did bit him again on the tail once after 4-6months of peace. It has learnt to respect me more, it tended to threaten my hand and even bite(pierced the skin once) when i worked near its hideout.
So its the initial reaction i am most afraid of regarding the small ones and its wish and fierceness in claiming a certain area. What i hope is that with the larger space it will be calmer than its species is famed. Plus it will always be single, so no breeding aggression. What do you think and what would you advise to assure long term peaceful coexistence with the other fish, cichlids and catfish?

Another thing i would like to ask is, how do you remove the young from cichlids breeding in a community tank to not have overpopulation and not allow much picking by the other cichlids?

Thank you very much in advance!


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Kostas G said:


> It still spends its day mostly hiding in my other tank where the only tankmates are catfish, and its a really beautiful cichlid that its a shame to feel insecure just because there are no other fish moving around.


That is to be expected, given the situation of tank mates. IMO, it won't get any better in this respect, as IME adults are even less out going then young fish, in the absence of many active and out going tank mates. I certainly did mention it, in this threadhttp://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=368330. Even quoted myself to mention it a second time and suggest you maybe over looking this fact. Given the circumstances, I thought it likely a poor choice for this tank. Rainbow cichlid probably one of many good options for this tank.


Kostas G said:


> I am still thinking of moving the salvini to my bigger tank.


It's probably worth a try. I guess in the end, if it proves to aggressive it could always be removed.
The rainbow(s) and/or festivum could be moved to the tank that the salvini came from, if the general atmosphere gets too rough. My suspicion is that the salvini would probably be unlikely to focus on the festivum, but no real way to know the future, nor whether or not somebody else would. Although, when I kept angelfish in rough tanks, salvini was really the one lone exception that did NOT give angelfish any special consideration ( they were chased away like any other CA/SA!)


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

Yes, i remember you mentioning it. I proceeded with it because it was ok for the tank size and considered a personable species. And it is! It takes food of my hand and is out watching me clean the tank, doing maintenance, etc. I call it by its name, and out it comes. Its just not generally out when i am not messing with the tank or not calling it. It did get better and its more outgoing when i am in the office but when i am not there, it doesn't get out much, sometimes not at all from what the others tell me. And even when i am there, its still out only 40% of the time at best, watching me. That does not bother me, i consider it a worthy choice and its the fish that got me into setting up my 1000l tank into a cichlid and catfish tank. But if i can give a better home to this wonderful fish without hurting my others and keeping peace, i would prefer to do so.

The only cichlids chasing the Mesonauta(they are M. sp. ''Rio Juffari''. Probably M. egregious from their looks) when they get too close, is my texas(H. carpintis), the firemouth(it holds a 25x25cm territory based inside an amazon sword), and the rainbow(!). Nothing serious, but the rainbow does want to bite them for some strange reason and takes breeding colors when they get close. The other cichlids ignore them and the general atmosphere of the tank is peaceful with no bitten fins or mean chases. Lets hope salvini behaves as well.

How long would you wait for the Mesonauta to settle before attempting to introduce the salvini?


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Kostas G said:


> How long would you wait for the Mesonauta to settle before attempting to introduce the salvini?


Difficult question to answer. But I don't think it matters too much, as think it not too likely that a salvini would focus on them too much, given other tank mates.
IME salvini are very quick to establish themselves in terms of the pecking order and are very seldom disadvantaged much, by being introduced later.


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

Thank you, this helps a lot. The fins of the Mesonauta are fixing now(they had severe fin rot following their import) so maybe at the end of this week or beginning of the next, i can move the salvini(trying to catch it in a planted tank will be interesting.....I am only counting in the fact that it comes out to defend its territory when an object gets too close to its elaborate ''nest''). Hope all goes well and helps reduce the chasing of the Nic towards Green Terror. Nic has expanded its territory to include 4/5th of the tank......At least its not too eager to bite, but it is persistent in the chase some times. Its around 20cm now


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## Kostas G (Oct 5, 2015)

So far Salvini is behaving more than decently and not fighting the other cichlids. Its getting chased often though and has not been allowed to settle in one place for more than half a day before being chased enough to abandon the area. Its not getting damaged though and is handling the situation progressively better while the cichlids are getting more tolerant. Still its not settled though.

When it got a place of his own, it was trying to keep it fish free but was not damaging the fish entering its area, more like chasing a bit, threatening or pushing away. A slight nip if they were not getting the message. It did manage to damage a pleco a bit but not much. This pleco can generally drive away any cichlid he wants, so he just has to chase that one away sooner as he has gotten tolerant of the other cichlids that are no more threatening him.

The salvini is no focusing on the small fish enough in a bad manner nor tries to eat them. Initially is was curious but no more.

Any tips on helping the salvini find a place in the cichlid hierarchy withought getting any other in a disadvantage? Basically the Apha(Nic) of the tank has not accepted its presence enough and the second in order(GT) hasn't either. The GT is only 2/3rd of the Salvini though and would easily find itself below the salvini in hierarchy if the Nic wasn't so strong and not accepting of salvini.


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