# bare bottom, does it matter?



## ahud

Hey all,

For the ease of cleaning, I'm slowly converting all of my smaller tanks to bare bottom with the bottom glass painted black.

As long as your not keeping sand sifting cichlids, do you think substrate has any benefits? I'm just curious if you think the fish feel more comfortable over substrate.


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## allierw

No. My front tank is bare bottom, and most of my fry tanks are bare bottom. Just easier to clean.


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## Number6

Well, studies show that the brains of fish with substrate are more developed than the brains of fish who are kept in bare bottom tanks... so, are the fish happier? healthier? No idea... :lol:

I still keep bare bottom tanks where I think it helps to! :thumb:


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## bernie comeau

ahud said:


> do you think substrate has any benefits?


I have always sort of wondered whether some cichlids move gravel just because they find it is in their way or it is an activity that they "like" to do? Maybe a little bit of both, though I suppose it does give them something to do. But removing substrate from a tank does actually give fish a little more space and increases the water volume somewhat.

I went to bare bottom tanks 5 years ago.....and I would never go back to substrate. It's so much easier to keep clean. Many different ways and methods in fish keeping......but for me it makes a lot of sense. Innitially it was the look of no substrate that i did not like......so I made an exposed aggragate bottom of 1 layer of gravel with cement, about 1/2" thick. Looks like substrate but is actually a solid bottom. Here's a pic:
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z116/Bern-C/IMG_1995.jpg

But my old fiberglass tanks sprung leaks, so i pounded it out when I fixed the tanks, and did not replace it. Actually I prefer not having it now, as this kind of bottom holds a little more debris and is little bit harder to clean then a smoother surface. All my glass tanks are painted on the underside either black or brown.


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## peathenster

Even "sand sifting cichlids" do well in BB tanks. I was out of room and had to keep some Geos. in a discus tank for a while. The albino discus in that tank ate very slowly so I decided to keep the tank BB. The Geos. looked happy, grew well and spawned multiple times. The absence of substrates did pose a problem when they were caring for fry - they usually make a depression in the substrates to keep wigglers.

That said, I do think that it affects fish behavior, especially when they breed. I also really don't see how it's harder to keep tanks with substrates clean. If you have "stuff" sitting on top of the substrates, you might want to consider adding more filtration and manage the current better.


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## ahud

I think it's a lot harder to keep the substrate clean in my tanks that are filtered with sponge filters. Water changes and siphoning the junk out is the only mechanical filtration.

On my display tanks, I would agree that its not as difficult.


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## peathenster

ahud said:


> I think it's a lot harder to keep the substrate clean in my tanks that are filtered with sponge filters. Water changes and siphoning the junk out is the only mechanical filtration.
> 
> On my display tanks, I would agree that its not as difficult.


Yes....my fry tank are all BB with sponge and HOB filters...


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## bernie comeau

peathenster said:


> I also really don't see how it's harder to keep tanks with substrates clean.


I'm not talking anything to do with apearance when I use the word clean. Substrate will hold waste and debris down, especially under decor......regardless of whether you can see it or not, that is DIRTY. Very difficult to remove it all in a water change with substrate......very easy in a bare bottom tank. If you really think your tank is that clean with substrate......remove your decor and stir your substrate up really hard. I bet most people's tanks would be foggy and look pretty dirty after that. Of course I'm not suggesting anybody actually go ahead and do this as it could be detrimental to your fish....just trying to make the point that a lot of waste, organic debris, and even uneaten food can get trapped in substrate.... that can use up oxygen, produce toxins and increase nitrates.


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## peathenster

bernie comeau said:


> I'm not talking anything to do with apearance when I use the word clean. Substrate will hold waste and debris down, especially under decor......regardless of whether you can see it or not, that is DIRTY. Very difficult to remove it all in a water change with substrate......very easy in a bare bottom tank. If you really think your tank is that clean with substrate......remove your decor and stir your substrate up really hard. I bet most people's tanks would be foggy and look pretty dirty after that. Of course I'm not suggesting anybody actually go ahead and do this as it could be detrimental to your fish....just trying to make the point that a lot of waste, organic debris, and even uneaten food can get trapped in substrate.... that can use up oxygen, produce toxins and increase nitrates.


Poor fish living in the amazons....or any rivers or lakes or ponds or ditches...I bet they all hate their substrates and wish they could live in a swimming pool.

When I first started keeping fish, all my tanks were BB. And I took the fish out and scrub my tanks when I did water changes. That was 30 years ago. I wonder how I lost my good habit...


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## ahud

Peathenster,

So basically your point is that if you do the obvious (don't overfeed, occasional siphoning, cleaning filters occasionally) then the amount of "gunk" in the tank is negligible? I don't think I could do the bare bottom deal in my show tanks, because I prefer those to look like a piece of nature.

Personally, the reason I decided to go bare bottom was because these are all small breeding tanks. They do not get much attention until the inhabitants decide to spawn. Not to mention that sponge filters are the only filtration.


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## bernie comeau

peathenster said:


> bernie comeau said:
> 
> 
> 
> ..I bet they all hate their substrates and wish they could live in a swimming pool.
Click to expand...

No doubt if fish could make their own choice, they would most likely choose the freedom of the wild over captivity.......but I think most aqaurium fish would gladly give up their substrate for the larger space of a swimming pool :lol:

Besides, lot's of fish come from lake or river bottoms with rocks to large for them to move...not so different then a solid bottom of an aqurium. Lot's of lake , river bottoms with algae....not so different then my tanks. Regardless, I don't beleive most species of cichlids suffer because of a lack of substatrate. On the contrary, for many aqaurists such as myself, it means better water quality for my fish. Not saying it's the only way....but it's definately my preffered way.


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## peathenster

ahud said:


> Peathenster,
> 
> So basically your point is that if you do the obvious (don't overfeed, occasional siphoning, cleaning filters occasionally) then the amount of "gunk" in the tank is negligible? I don't think I could do the bare bottom deal in my show tanks, because I prefer those to look like a piece of nature.


I think the important thing is to monitor your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels. For an established tank with sufficient filtration, you shouldn't have to worry about ammonia and nitrate, and the plants you have in your show tank should absorb lots of nitrates. What we think as "gunk" may not matter to fish at all. So yes, with some basic maintenance, substrates are not problematic at all. Among other benefits, they also harbor the bacteria that break down ammonia and nitrites.


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## DeadFishFloating

My breeder tanks have substrate in them. But I keep sand sifting dwarves, apistos and Pelvicachromis. I always know when I have eggs, as there is a new mountain of sand outside a driftwood cave.

My fry tanks and growout tanks are all bare bottom. But I have painted them all blue. I tried black to start with, but found it acted as a mirror somewhat and didn't like it. If you like, you can put a couple of small pots with plants in the growout tanks for the fish to play around in. When I do a water change, I just take the driftwood and potted plants out, siphon everything off the bottom and put the driftwood back in.


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## smitty

I don't think fish care as much as we do.


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## toume

The only problem I've come across with BB tanks is if the fish sees their reflection in it. I set up a tank, and just to get the fish (8" and 10" JDs) in something more substantial than two 5g buckets, I threw them in. All was dandy until I turned on the light.

They freaked out, skimming along the bottom bumping into the pvc pipe and clay pots I put in for them. They wouldn't go out in the open, literally, for 3 days until I put sand in. They just sat in the tubes, unless the light was off. I thought it was settling in behavior, or the light, but it was like they were afraid of the bottom (and their own shadow). Stupid things. And other than it looking gross after only one day (because excess food and waste is much more obvious), I had no problems.

Maybe painting the bottom black will solve this?


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## Chromedome52

I use a lot of bare tanks, the bottoms are painted a dark Green, I think it's called Hunter Green. I just don't like black or blue. Bare tanks are good for raising fry, as the uneaten food can be seen more easily and cleaned out. I also use them a lot as birthing tanks for female livebearers, and with a bunch of floating plants, they are good for my Killifish.

However, for breeding most of my cichlids, I like to use gravel, very fine red flint. Of course, I mostly keep New World substrate spawners, so they like to dig pits for their fry. It does seem to make parent fish more comfortable when they have something to dig. Also, with Apistos and other cave spawners, they seem to prefer to dig out their space. Some female Apistos use the gravel to make the opening too small for the male to get in easily, this gives her some relief if he's pushing too hard.


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## Hercules Rockefeller

Gravel is easy to clean I don't know what the big deal is. Bare bottom tanks look awfull imho. I gravel vac during water changes and I've never had a problem with debris accumulating and if it is accumulating I can't see it so it doesn't matter.


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## Number6

*Hercules Rockefeller*
There are many species off cichlid where the wastes that rot in the gravel is enough to stop them breeding or can stress them to the point of illness. That is the big deal... we aren't talking about angelfish tanks here...


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## DeadFishFloating

We are also talking about fry and growout tanks, where the fish are fed two or three times a day and recieve water changes two or three times a week, or even daily. It's much easy to vaccum up waste from bare bottom tanks.


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