# 75G Mbuna Stocking



## hose91 (Mar 5, 2014)

Ready to stock my first tank. A quick recap from my setup thread. The tank...



75G, 48W x 15"D x 24" Tall. 2 Eheim 2217's (the second went in after this pic, on the left side, spray bars on short ends facing each other).

Fish acquisition is planned for next weekend, tank is on day 7 of the cycle. (Great ammonia processing, nitrite eating bacteria still getting their act together). Have followed 
many good stocking threads, and gone through lots and lots of the historical threads as well. Based on common themes, I am aiming for 3 groups of juvies. 
I am avoiding Demasoni and Yellow Labs because I don't want the extra work of the former, and it seems like everyone has the latter.

Here's my Plan A stock list. 
Metriaclimia sp Membe Deep (12) (1" F1's available at my chosen vendor)
Iodotropheus Sprengerae (Rusty) - 6
Labidochromis sp Perlmutt (6)

Only real blues in this setup are the Membe males, but not sure I've got room for a 4th species. I thought perhaps a larger initial group, 
might get me a 3M:7-8F group, but if it ends up just 1:4-5, that's ok too.

In case I'm underwhelmed by those fish in person, or just to keep an open mind, 
Plan B might be 
Msobo Deeps (6-7)
Ps Elongatus Chailosi or an OB Labeotropheus (6-7)

This would be only two species, but slightly larger adult fish. Still the Dimorphic species but the larger Msobo. I miss out on a solid, light colored fish here (like the Perlmutt, which I like online, hope 
they're the same in person!). I could add Socolofi or maybe better would be White Labs, again a smaller group of Juvenilles would be key, and I'd be worried about the fish getting too big for what is sort of
tweener footprint wise between a 55 and 75G.

I'd like to add them all at once, and so am working off the available stock at the semi local fish store, which is listed online and is quite large. Not planning on hardcore breeding, but would like 
to be able to keep fry at some point, if only just spit in the tank, and only for the experience.

Questions: 
1. Do the intial and final numbers make sense? Assuming the tank finishes cycling in the next week, processing 4 ppm ammonia and nitrites in 24 hours should handle this bioload of 24 juvenille fish?
2. Does it make any difference if the initial group is an even or an odd number of fish? I could go 11, 7 and 7 in that case. 
3. The first species off the "bench", should a 4th dwarf species seem feasible, would be Cyno sp Hara (Gallireya Reef). Any other thoughts on an additional species in either set up, or a substitute for what I've started with?

My assistant Fishkeeper Bentley, pictured below, would like to know what you all might think! Thanks!


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

First off- cool dog. My dog(not mine really but lives in the same house) tends to stand 4" away from my feet as I'm doing maint and I think he aims to make my life miserable. Small dogs... :x

I know this is a stocking question, and I skimmed your thread in the Aquarium setup. But I think you need to tone down your ammonia dosing to 2 ppm. You're producing a ton of nitrite, and that will be longest phase of your fishless cycle. Allow the bacteria that consumes nitrite to establish itself and bring those nitrites down to zero, then dose ammo to 2 ppm and see where you're at after 24 hours. When they both show 0, check for nitrate. You're on day 7, and adding fish in a week could be a little wishful thinking. If you seeded with some established media, then maybe not.

I think your first stocking scheme looks good. You're picking some fish that are not common, or even rare in the case with the Membe deep. I have some juveniles from the same source you're getting yours from. While my males have not made the full transformation, I'm not expecting any real striking blue coloration. Step the numbers up to 8-10 on the Rusties and Perlmutts. Once your tank is cycled, it will not have a problem with 30 juvenile mbuna.

Going off the fish list of the vendor you'll be visiting, all the fish in question are juveniles so don't expect much in the way of coloration. My Membe babies were pretty underwhelming at 1" but have started to look pretty awesome. I'm not sure what Perlmutt juvies look like. You could go with a different Labidochromis, but I think you should stick with the Perlmutts. The Rusties will be a purplish brown with some orange in the finnage.

Here's a thread with some pics of the Membe deep. I know you commented on it, but just a reminder-
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=302690

Cynotilapia sp. Hara isn't really a dwarf, per se. Males will easily reach 5" and over when kept in captivity. I'd look at one of the other cynotilapia species they offer like 'Jalo reef' or the 'Lions Cove' variants. Some may say the Jalo with its blue barring is similar to the Perlmutt. They are definitely barred, but I think the similarities are subtle. You could always stock a small Synodontis as a 4th. Probably won't see any fry in the tank with them prowling the terrain, though.

The path through your 2 rock piles looks cool, but the fish will benefit from more rock through that area.

Good luck, and hoped this helped.


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## hose91 (Mar 5, 2014)

Thanks for the thoughtful replies, much appreciated! 
Chemistry: I did not have timely access to reliable seeding material, so I substituted a bottle of refrigerated starter from my independent LFS and otherwise proceeded basically according to the excellent articles here. I've dosed ammonia 3 times, day 1, day 4 and day 6, and only up to 2 ppm on day 6. Ammonia has been consistently consumed in 24 hours on both day 4 and 6. On day 4, I got a lower nitrite reading than on day 3, so I did a 30% pwc and dosed back to 3-4 ppm. day 5 had 0 ammonia, but still dark purple nitrites, so I left it until day 6, still dark purple. PWC to lower nitrites, small ammonia dose (half of what I'd been using before, 2.5 ml). Think I either had a faulty nitrites test, or else I set them back with the PWC. I have half a bottle of bacteria left. I'm going to let it ride a day or two longer, see if the nitrite consumers can get on board, then if not, I'll consider adding the rest of the starter in the hopes it has some active nitrite consumers in it. My tap water is pseudo well (I live on an island, share a well system with about 150 other properties in our area), and tests out at pH 7.8, 9 deg GH, 7 deg KH. I did add a little epsom salt early on and brought the tank to 12/9 deg GH/KH. I seem to have about 4-5 ppm Nitrates in the tap water, but no ammonia or chloramines that I can tell. If the tank isn't fully cycled by late next week, we'll postpone the trip til the following weekend without a problem.

Stocking - Thanks for the advice! I think I'll stick with the three from that first plan, then. Thanks for the reminder that they will not be spectacular as juvies. I probably needed that dose of reality! A local member here (who also commented on your Deep thread) shared a video of her zebra golds and polits from a year or so ago with me, and I really liked the look of the polit males, which seems to be similar to the Membe males, so I'm pretty stoked for that, actually. Torn on the Syno. I really like the looks of the dwarf petricola cruising around, but know that makes it harder on fry in the tank. Think three Mbuna species will be the right call for now, and bumping up to 8-10 per group will be the plan.

Membe - Do you think you'll end up with 2M:9F? Any sense on whether you'll be able to keep the extra male(s)?

Hardscape - I've got a pile of extra rock laying just outside on the deck. I was thinking that perhaps "less is more" when originally putting them in, but I will definitely add some more in next water change. Thanks for the constructive tip. I also have a couple of large plastic plants from the craft store, but didn't want to put them in until the tank cycle was more stable.

Bentley - He's a giant teddy bear. He loves to be right in the middle of the action. He's a total water dog, and it's very perplexing to him at water changes when he can see and hear the splashing, but its behind an invisible wall! Funny to watch.

Thanks again for the good advice. It's tough to stay patient, but it will surely be better for the tank and the fish in the long run.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I just sat in front of the Membe deep tank for about 20 minutes observing them. I had identified 3 males and was pretty confident in that. I think I just recognized a fourth. Just taking overall coloration of the body and slight hints of color in the finnage into account. There is one who looks every bit of an adult male at times, but his color is not constant. I'm not sure about their temperament yet. They're all pretty small still. Most are about 2.5-2.75".


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## hose91 (Mar 5, 2014)

Excellent! I'm a bit uncertain how the whole "rehoming the males when they become a problem" really goes in a tank. I'd be interested to follow your observations/analysis/actions with this group of fish in your "rolling in the Membe Deep" thread, much like I enjoy following your Demasoni thread. If you get a chance to get a good pic of your male with the adult coloring on, that would be a great share, as mine will probably be related to yours in some way or another


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Thanks. I'll try for a picture this week.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

I like your stocklist - should be a great tank.
If you're itching for a little bit more blue, you could swap the Lab. pearlmutt for Lab. chisumulae, Lab. Hongi, Lab. mbamba, C. afra, or C. sp. Hara.
-or- you could swap the rusties for some Ps. socolofi or Ps. cyaneorhabdos.

As far as the synos - it looks like the petricola being sold at that store are at 1" - so you won't have any problems with them eating fry for a while.
In any case - if you want to breed and raise fry in the future, your best bet is to catch the mom and either strip the fry or let her spit in a separate tank. The synos won't really matter in this case.


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## hose91 (Mar 5, 2014)

Great point on the synos and raising future fry in a sep tank. I think I'll add them to this tank without reservation. They seem like they're fun to watch.

I AM itching a lttle for more blue, but not at the expense of the current planned fish, ha! What I'm really itching for is a bigger tank! Good to have a list of options to fall back on when overwhelmed by the sheer number of choices in a big store. I'm not certain that I have completely visualized what the perlmutt will look like as adults, hoping there are some mature ones on display there to see. That might be an on the fly decision

On a side note, its a 3.5 hour trip home. I expect they'll pump some extra O2 into the bags. Anything else I should bring or ask for to make the trip home easier on me and the fish? A cooler? Heat packs? If im buying 35ish fish in 4 species, how many bags would that be, do you think?


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

3.5 hours isn't a big deal as long as they bag them well, which I'm sure they know how to do. They'd be fine even without extra oxygen. Heat packs / cold packs shouldn't be needed unless your car lacks air conditioning / heating and it will be really hot or cold, respectively. A cooler isn't a bad idea - it'll be a nice waterproof storage container to put all the bags of fish in. It's a good idea to check all bags for leaks before you leave the store.

If possible, encourage them to put fewer fish per bag. It depends on the size of the fish though...and assumes you have enough room - 
2"+ ask for single fish per bag
1.5-2" = 1 or 2 fish per bag
1" - 1.5" = 3-4 fish per bag
1" and under = 5-6 per bag would be ok.

Good luck! Picking up new fish is so much fun, I'm jealous.


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## hose91 (Mar 5, 2014)

Fantastic input, thanks! I feel much better now about what to expect. I'll take a cooler with to put all the bags into. Otherwise, all should be ok, and the temps are pretty mild, relatively. I'm pretty stoked. I've always considered myself a relatively patient guy, but this process has been a bit of a eye opener on how much I've gotten used to the instant gratification of the information age. Waiting 2-3 weeks for something seems like a loooooong time


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## hose91 (Mar 5, 2014)

Bit of a bad news/good news weekend, which is probably appropriate, given the historical background of Easter.

Bad news was that the latest dose of ammonia on Friday morning did not completely process by Sat morning before we left for Portland (0 ammonia, 4-5 ppm Nitrite).

Good news was that we still went, and we worked in a visit to the big LFS/Online Cichlid dealer in central Portland, and I got to lay eyes on the Membe Deep, Lab Perlmutt, and Rusty stock that I'm going to order as soon as the Nitrite crew get on the stick in my tank. They looked great in the tanks there, and I'm really excited about all three species.

Bad news II is that after looking at several of the bigger Malawi tanks there, I think I'm going to be missing blue in my stock list.

Good news II is that I also love the Maingano, and although they're aggressive, there aren't any other conflicts with my other three species in terms of coloration or species conflict.

Bad News III is that my 75G footprint is 48" Long by 15" wide and I dunno if I have room for 4 Mbuna species (2 Eheim 2217, big rocks, PFS substrate for the other physical characteristics).

Good News III is that this forum is a tremendous resource for good opinions.

So, what might happen if I add juvie Maingano to the stock list for this tank (group of 8, probably), without removing any of the other three? Will the tank explode, mass chaos, cats and dogs living together?

Should I just simmer down and stay with my original three, and then perhaps add the blue later with a smaller group of larger fish if Blue really is lacking?

What might I be getting myself in for with 4 Mbuna species, and what could I do to mitigate that (besides only having 3 

Lastly, the dwarf syno petricola were 1", and 1" is crazy small in person!! I also loved the way they looked in the tanks, and they should also be a good addition as a small group of 4-5.

Thoughts?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

> mass chaos, cats and dogs living together


Ghostbusters?

I would be hesitant to add the Maingano. They're recommended to keep 7-8 girls per male. They wouldn't clash with your other 3. I'm sure someone will chime in with long term experience with them.

The suggestions Kanorin put up for swapping fish around are something to look at...

If you try to squeeze in the fourth I'd do Cyno sp Hara, personally.


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## hose91 (Mar 5, 2014)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> > mass chaos, cats and dogs living together
> 
> 
> Ghostbusters?


I am actually not certain of the origins, might be Ghostbusters, might also be Good Morning, Vietnam. It's one I use regularly.

Good point about the White Tops. In fact, in my very own post I said they'd be first off the "bench". I can't bring myself to give up any of the other three though. There are also some local F1 Jalo Reef fry that I might inquire after for a future add insead, if it seems feasible after having the original three species in the tank. Still waiting on the Nitrite, grrr. Day 18, so still reasonable time frame on the fishless cycle, but I sure do with it would hurry up!


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## hose91 (Mar 5, 2014)

3 weeks in. Nitrite was off the charts last few days with minimal new ammonia added. 3 good sized water changes has it down to .25 to .5 ppm. Added just 1 mL of ammonia (.50 ppm, maybe, on the color chart). I'm hoping the denitrifying bacteria are in there, just not in many numbers, and that the lower nitrite concentration will allow them to take off.

Good news was that during 90% water change, I had opportunity to rescape a bit...



Added a level to the right hand side, reworked the middle to bridge and fill in that gap, and added a couple of smaller rocks to the left hand rockpile. Not any more natural, but still decently proportioned and spaced, and feels a little more balanced. The left side gets a few minutes of natural sunlight each afternoon from that window, so I was experimenting with what a green plant might look like there (some fake foreground plants I inherited with the tank).

Need cycle to complete so I can be done with deciding on the stock. Today I'm back to my orig 3 (Membe, Perlmutt, Rusty), 3 groups of 10. In recent days I've considered adding a fourth species (white top, cobue, chailosi, chewere, depending on the day), considered dropping the rusties for one of the blue barred fish, thought about dropping the Deeps, and so on, blah, blah, blah.


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## boomer92 (Apr 17, 2013)

Liking the rock scape


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## Ramseydog14 (Dec 31, 2013)

^same here,..just be careful with that biggest rock. I love the way it looks like that but if you get some serious diggers under those front rocks..I could see it possibly tipping over forward into the front glass. Of course I can't tell if you have padding etc. below them,..or how well it's wedged in there, so it may be fine. Just thought I'd mention it.


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## hose91 (Mar 5, 2014)

Great point, R'Dog. I ended up with them like that by accident. I was moving the bigger top one around, and needed to set it aside for a sec, so I put it on that bottom one, which was off to the side, and they just locked together like a puzzle. I thought "huh, that's pretty cool looking, and taller than anything else I've done so far" and so I worked that around until I liked it. The bottom rock is totally flat on the light diffuser eggcrate under the sand. There is some mass to the tall rock behind it, so the center of gravity is more centered over the bottom rock than it looks. Honestly, I'm more worried about the left hand rockpile. They feel solid and the bottom ones are on the eggcrate and not the sand, but they are definitely more "house of cards"-ish. My last line of "defense" is that its an acrylic tank, so if they tumble, hopefully the worst outcome is that I have some scratch removal work to do.


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## hose91 (Mar 5, 2014)

So, got off the phone with the online fish store (OFS?) and now have 14 F1 Membe Deep, 10 Lab "Perlmutt", 10 Ps Cyaneorhabdos "Maingano" juvies and 5 Syno Dwarf Petricolas winging my way for a Thurs delivery. Technically I think they'll be ground shipped from Portland, so they're really "wheeling" their way here, but either way I'm happy to be cycle complete and ready for fish! Little bit nervous, if I'm being totally honest. 39 little lives in my hands. Yikes.

There were 14 Membe Deeps left, and I was originally in for 10, but figured leaving 4 behind didn't do anyone any real good, so I bought them all. Hopefully I don't regret that decision! Additionally, I was inspired by Iggy's Demasoni and Membe Deep threads/photos (among others!), and at the last minute, decided to swap Maingano in for the Rusties, as was suggested by Kanorin some time back. Tough decision for me because the little Rusties they had when I went to the store last weekend were beautiful, but I feel like there will be a better blue/yellow balance in the tank, the fish should pop against my lighter rocks and black background, and the Maingano are also a really striking fish imo. A Group of 10 will hopefully be enough to get a 1:7 harem eventually. So, it's small water changes to get the nitrates down and protect the BB, turning the heater down, and settling in for a short wait til Thursday!


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Good luck and post some pics once they settle in.


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## boomer92 (Apr 17, 2013)

Interested to hear how it goes!


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## 3000GT (Jan 18, 2014)

I really like the new rock scape as well. Good changes. I'm a bit torn ont the plant though. It seems out of place. Maybe pull it so it's all rocks, or go the other way and add a couple more small foreground plants or maybe just add one or two taller ones in the back peaking out from behind the rocks to balance the one in the front. Just my thoughts.


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## hose91 (Mar 5, 2014)

So the fish rolled into town today around 5 pm. Got them unboxed and into the tank. Nicely packed and double bagged. They all arrived alive, tho they looked ready to get out of the bags, for sure!









Bentley was otherwise occupied (chasing cars and burying bones, no doubt), so I was forced to recruit some fill in assistant fishkeepers, who reported for duty with enthusiasm to spare










Team effort, dump and drop! Everything went well here, but we were all a little jittery about getting the little guys into the tank safely.










Checking to make sure they're all in safely. 37 is a lot to count when they don't hold still!










This is what passed for a FTS today. I think just the Perlmutts are in at this point. You can see 2 or 3 of them in the lower left corner of the tank here. The fake plants are temporary, I think. Didn't want to mess with the scape too much while it was cycling. GT3000 had some good words. I have a large pile of plastic ones I inherited with the tank, maybe I can round something up to make it less jarring to look at the lonely spot of green. 









They've been in for about 5 hours now, and after some initial schooling and laps around the tank, they've spread out and seem to be content exploring their new home. I spent at least an hour watching while sitting on the stepladder in the pics. Definitely going to have to get a more comfortable close up seat! Overall, the big intro of fish to tank went better than even I expected. The setup and fishless cycle was a long, patience testing journey, but sure was worth the effort.

Also I'm really, really glad I went with Maingano over Rusties, as they are striking in the tank, and I don't think I expected the juvie perlmutt to have such distinct and dark barring. The Deeps are, I think, related to the ones in Iggy's tank (among others here on CF), and I think these might be a tad bigger than the 1" they were advertised as. The largest of them is also the largest in the tank, and early indications are that he may be a dominant male (looks like he's got a five o'clock shadow) and tank boss, at least for the moment. The additional rocks in the middle and on the right side have proven to be just what the doctor ordered, and I was really pleased with both the constructive feedback and it's positive impact in the tank and on my fish. The variety of paths through those rocks is mind boggling, actually, and they've found holes I never thought would work. zThe syno's are really, really tiny, and like it under the rocks, but still pretty active and very fun to watch. They were another good piece of advice from here. Thanks, everyone for the words and for reading!

Barring some setup disaster in the next days, I think I'll close out this thread and eventually start a chronicle thread for long term tracking. Cheers!


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## boomer92 (Apr 17, 2013)

Congratulations! Good stuff, and thanks for sharing.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Glad it went smoothly. Nice to get the kids involved. Mine is a pretty good 'net holder' as well!


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## cichlid-gal (Apr 27, 2012)

Congrats on your new fish arriving. I know how exciting it can be after all the planning and preparation to finally see them in the tank. Keep us informed as they grow


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## hose91 (Mar 5, 2014)

So, as posted in the Health Forum, first water change with new fish yesterday went well until heater was plugged back in. 5 mins later, noticed a noxious "cloud" billowing out of the top of the heater/thermostat dial. Oh dear. Long story short, BIG water change to suck it out, prime, carbon in the filters, different heater, wait it out.

All seems well this morning. 150W heater is maintaining. They ate pretty well. Water quality still looks good, 0 ammonia, 5-10 on the nitrates. Active and healthy. Hopefully avoided the first disaster!


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## cichlid-gal (Apr 27, 2012)

Glad you were there to catch that ... that could have been terrible.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Never had a heater malfunction. With fish at least. Had some aquatic turtles completely shatter one. That was a fun cleanup...

Since you may need a quality replacement, I'd suggest checking out the inline heaters. No tank clutter.


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