# Are these peacocks Females or Subdominant Males?



## dfwcajunguy (Jun 21, 2017)

I started my all-male peacock/hap tank (55G) back in June by stocking 9 peacocks initially that I got from a pretty large, assumed reputable online dealer. These were all purchased sexed as males between 2-3" in size. When they arrived, they all had some color, even if only a little around the jaw and fins. Not long after, a couple of the smaller guys, specifically my Rubescens (Ruby Red) and Ngara Flametail (Mdoka), colored down, which I presume was subdominance based on being in with a few more assertive fish (Dragon Blood, an OB, and a hybrid jerk fish that I've since had to rehome). The DB is the tank boss and he's pretty assertive about territory and will chase, but there's been no major aggression issues since removing the hybrid after about 3 weeks in tank.

I've shown pictures of these two fish to a few people and had it suggested that one or both might be either a hybrid or a female. It's hard to find good pictures online of a colored down subdominant fish in these two species, so I thought I would present this to you guys to get some opinions. Here are the two fish in question the day I got them and then again today:










Do these appear to be subdominant males, consistent with their species? Or something else?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Unfortunately they were probably hormone enhanced females. I've never had any males lose their color like that, not even dead ones.


----------



## dfwcajunguy (Jun 21, 2017)

What about the fact that their dorsal and anal fins have started to get "pointy" and elongated over the last month or so? The Ruby is slightly ahead of the flametail in that regard. I was under the impression that hormoned fish would go in the other direction, i.e. pointy tails start to round out as the hormones go away.

Also, for what it's worth, my iphone pictures have washed out some of their coloration. The Ruby is pretty much a dull rusty red color. The flametail is a little darker and I can make out blue glints on the scales on the side. You can make out the dull orange flame pattern as well. Interestingly, when the lights are off, they lose almost all of their color and look like females, but darken up within 2-3 minutes of lights on.

The only thing I've found anywhere to give me hope that this could be a male that will eventually color up is this forum post: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=221807. The "before" pics of the flametail in that post looks almost identical to mine. I've read that flametails are late bloomers but hadn't heard the same of red peacocks.

My plan is to be patient and watch what happens - either they color up at some point or mate with one of the others? - but I'm just struggling with the ambiguity and mixed signals these fish seem to be giving me.


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

A couple of pictures for comparison.


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Even in the second picture they still have female shaped dorsals. Males have an elongated point not a blunted end.


----------



## dfwcajunguy (Jun 21, 2017)

Thanks for all of the explanation and pictures. My hope is dashed a bit now.

OK, so a little contingency planning here - let's say that these two are indeed females. They are in a 55G with 6 other male peacocks (DB, OB, sulphur head, bicolor, baenschi, ethelwynnae) and 3 male haps (z-rock, tetrastigma, p. electra blue). What will I see happen if they are female and these guys inch closer to adulthood? Will my tank go from relative peace to bloodbath overnight or will there be signs that things are about to go bad?


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I would remove them or get a bigger tank.


----------



## dfwcajunguy (Jun 21, 2017)

It sounds like I may need to just cut to the chase and learn how to vent them so that I can know for sure.

If they are male, I can be patient and live with them colored down. If they show female, then I'll need to take more immediate action.


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I'm a little surprised there haven't been any issues yet.


----------



## dfwcajunguy (Jun 21, 2017)

maybe that's another inconclusive data point to suggest they could be male... maybe not... these fish sure give mixed signals... haha

What's funny to me is that I've had three trusted sources (including you) give me three different responses based on that picture. One of the others said they looked like sub dominant males based on fin shape and egg spots, and the other suggested that they could be males but possibly hybridized species. That just tells me that it's tough to tell simply from one picture given they are juvie/pre-adult fish at this point. I'll try to vent them and come back with the results.


----------



## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

Juvenile males can lose early color when moved in with bigger fish, and the first pics don't seem like hormoned fish, hormoned fish tend to look weird and often have very long fins, then often turn dark when they wear off. I guess it depends on what all of the fish looked like.

As for purity, a "Ruby Red" is a vague fish anyway... you could order from 3 different vendors and have them not be the same. You don't really know the history of these fish.


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I agree that young males can lose some color but not all of it like in the OPs pics. I've had several males of these particular species and I've never seen them revert to full color loss, not even if one died, not sub-dominance and not even sick ones I've taken in. Hormoned fish don't necessarily have to look deformed either...


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

They aren't hybrids and egg spots are useless for determining gender, I have known females in my tank of these species with egg spots and the same shaped dorsals. I'll try to get some pictures later


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Sorry, best I could do with all the activity in my tank.


----------



## dfwcajunguy (Jun 21, 2017)

Thanks for the pictures for comparison. I see both similarities and differences between your fish and mine. Very interesting to see the well defined egg spots. I'll try to vent them tomorrow night and see what that tells us.


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I guess it's possible that they could be males and just regressed to female coloration. I've personally never seen it because once they had color it never fully left regardless of the circumstances. At three inches, they should at least be showing some hint of color even if it's only a blue tint to the face. My Ngara had the recognizable species coloration by the time he was 2-2 1/2"


----------



## dfwcajunguy (Jun 21, 2017)

With the naked eye, I can make out some blue glints on the scales of the Ngara, but it doesn't come through on camera. His face/jaw actually shows that "marbling" look that you see on a dark blue colored peacock head (like on my bicolor), but there's no blue obviously. Both of these two fish, when the lights are off, completely color down to almost silver. Then when lights come on, they darken up in about 2 minutes. They are the only fish in the tank that exhibit that. When its feeding time, they seem to be at their darkest , but they aren't showing clear species coloration.

One of the mods over on reddit's cichlid forum suggested that if I indeed had two 3" females in a 55G tank with 9 other males, then I probably would have seen a fair amount of attempted breeding behavior and a rise in aggression by now. That's an interesting way to look at it, and I haven't seen that at all.

The funny thing is that I started with juvies partly to watch them color up over time and told myself I would be patient about it. I didn't realize I'd have a situation like this on my hands, lol.


----------



## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I only have two female peacocks with 12 mostly 4-6" males in my tank and there isn't excessive aggression over them at all. It really seems like they only show interest in their own subspecies. I'm not saying that it's necessarily true in every tank but that's what I've observed in mine. I've never seen the female rubescens try to mate with any other male nor the ngara female.


----------



## Aaron S (Apr 4, 2015)

Well I am not as experienced with these fish, but I can provide my 2cents. My guess is they are sub dominant males. Your online retailer probably knows how to properly vent the fish to figure out male and female which should be visible at that size (by the way, you can try to vent them also). If they were not hormoned when you got them then that would be a slam dunk for it being male. I also think the dorsal fins are a bit more pointed than I would expect from a female. I have also not seen male fish lose that much color when they are subdominant, but I have seen an incredibly dramatic shift in color. One thing that really makes me say its male is that you have not had the fish holding which they would be more than capable of at that size and being in the tank for several months. If the water parameters were not right such that the fish were not interested in breeding then that would be the only thing stopping them from breeding (and if you find the magic parameters to make them stop breeding then let me know... thanks  ).

What can you do to answer the question of male or female? If you really wanted to know then get another tank, catch the fish, take a picture of the vent, post the picture for the people on this forum to give their opinion on the vent, and put the fish in a tank on their own and see if the color returns over a month or something (maybe less). Those two ways are your most fool proof ways of determining the sex at this point in my opinion.

What do you do about it? I would say don't worry about it unless it causes problems anyway.


----------



## dfwcajunguy (Jun 21, 2017)

Thanks, Aaron. At this point, I'm feeling 75% sure that both are males. I will try to vent them tonight and get pictures in the process. If I had another largish tank, I would have already pulled them to see if they would color up away from the dominant males in the 55G. My QT aquarium right now is a 10G, which is barely suitable for a sick cichlid, it really doesn't have enough swimming space for a healthy peacock. The last time the flametail was in there for popeye, he colored waaaaay down the whole time he was in it. I'm going to keep my eyes open for a good deal on a 20L or even 40B/40L that I might be able to use as a QT/growout tank in the future.


----------



## dfwcajunguy (Jun 21, 2017)

Ok, here's the update for you guys. I was able to net and vent the Flametail. Looked male to me as the vent and anus looked same size. I decided to quit while I was ahead as the fish were still stressed from a water change, I was stressed from netting the first fish and I'm confident that the ruby is male as well based on fin shape.

So I guess what I have are a couple of subdominant, late blooming males that may be from below average breeding stock. Maybe with time these fish will color up. Maybe not. I'll be sure to post updated pictures when they bloom.

Thanks for the help guys.


----------

