# Don't know what to do



## eyann (Aug 21, 2017)

Hey guys,
So, my CA tank (well, except the red tail), is a total mess for a few weeks now. I had to remove 2 fish already, but now it's getting worst. 
I guess the main problem is the Salvini, but i'm not even sure. Things are:
- the blue acara is the last arrived in the tank, a week ago, not very big but a good 3.5 inches.
- the JD was the first one in that tank, 3 months ago, size: about 3 inches
- the salvini was introduced 2 months ago, first she was bullied by a convict that i had to take off. She's maybe 2 inches, so pretty small.
- the red tail shark has been introduced with the JD 3 months ago, he is very long, about 4.5 inches i'd say.

The Salvini is a really bully, like, bad one. She is chasing the blue acara like crazy, a real biter. 
The JD is being bullied by the blue acara, and before, by the red tail.
The salvini is being bullied by the JD.
The red tail shark, i literately don't see him anymore for like a month, he's in his cave, as soon as he shows up, the salvini will jump on him and attack him.

I had to get rid of a convict female because she was very mean, and of a pictus catfish who was completely unhappy. But i have the feeling that removing him brought up more aggression.

See? Just a mess. And i don't know what to do, which one should i remove? all of them? None?

PS: The water is just fine, no amo, no nitrite, very low nitrate, ph is about 7.5, i have a lot of plants and hiding spots, the temp is set at 78, it's a 55gal bow front, it's rather high. I have two filtration systems: one is a Aqueon 55 and the other is an Odyssea internal filter ex350 (which is just awesome btw). I use Purigen and biomatrix all the time. The tank light is on no more than 10 hours a day. Plants are doing awesome.


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## Ichthys (Apr 21, 2016)

The easiest answer is to remove the bully. IME salvini are far more aggressive than JDs, which are actually quite placid as CAs go. They will always dominate a tank if they can get away with it.

Labeos don't work well with aggressive cichlids unless the tank is very big, because Labeos like the open space as their territory, which ain't gonna happen in a cichlid tank.

Blue Acaras are very mild mannered too (are you sure it's a blue Acara and not a green terror?).

Personally I would remove the Shark and the salvini and replace with a less aggressive species.


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## eyann (Aug 21, 2017)

I will try what you said, i think i have nothing more to lose at this point. If you look at the tank right now, looks just EMPTY, like if there was nothing at all inside, they are all hiding, awaiting for the first one to get out to jump and attack, that's so annoying... 
Yes it's a blue acara, very similar to the JD but more colorful and rounded shape. Looks exactly like this one: http://animal-world.com/encyclo/fresh/cichlid/blueacara.php


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Your salvini, by the way, is definitely male. Your posted pic in the illness section clearly shows that it lacks a dorsal spot (as well as having coloration and body shape typical of a younger male).
IMO, male salvini is not a great choice for a 55 gal. IME, doesn't generally get along very well with other CA over the long term, even in 6 foot tanks.
I don't think your red tailed shark would likely end up being a problem, nor is it likely to get picked on by your cichlids if you have sufficient numbers. There are always instances where it works fine and other instances where it may not for various reasons.
IMO, your main issue in these early stages is insufficient numbers. 2-3 cichlids may not even get you through the short term early stages. IMO, 4-5 cichlids would be a bare minimum and the more aggressive the cichlid is, generally the higher numbers you will need. Not enough and there aggression will be directed excessively at their only competitors. Only 2-3 cichlids in the tank, often one will seek to eliminate it's competition and take the whole tank for itself.
If your looking to have a 55 gal. tank with mainly CA cichlids, I'd look at firemouth and other Thorichthys and also Cryptoheros/Amatitlania/ Archoecentrus.


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## eyann (Aug 21, 2017)

Thanx^^I always thought that it was a "she"! 
Well, last update: i've tried to catch him (the salvini) since he seriously damaged the BA fins this morning, like very bad. Plus he was trying to get into the shark cave for some reasons and he got in a serious fight. It ended up with the shark moving from his cave to another one, which was empty so far, but i guess i'm not gonna see him for a while again 
So, yes, i've been trying to catch the salvini, but no luck, unless i completely remove all of the plants, i think i'll stress them more than they already are if i keep trying. 
So what i did is i added a half flower pot so the BA has a very good spot to hide from the Salvini (about the shark i'm not worried anymore, he now has the best spot ever). I know it's temporary, but i guess it's the only thing i can do for now.
About adding other CA cichlid, it would be nice, but my LFS only has very small ones right now (mostly Oscars, Firemouth, JD and BA), i'll wait a little and see if they can have bigger ones. I know they have a lot of convicts, but the first time with them was a total disaster, so i'll see...


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

eyann said:


> The Salvini is a really bully, like, bad one. She is chasing the blue acara like crazy, a real biter.
> The JD is being bullied by the blue acara, and before, by the red tail.
> The salvini is being bullied by the JD.
> The red tail shark, i literately don't see him anymore for like a month, he's in his cave, as soon as he shows up, the salvini will jump on him and attack him.





eyann said:


> like if there was nothing at all inside, they are all hiding, awaiting for the first one to get out to jump and attack, that's so annoying...


I think you should do something about it fairly soon. 
Drain the tank right down, and while doing a large water change, shouldn't be all that difficult to catch a fish once you take the height dimension away. If you need to remove decor, then do what you have to.
There is a big distinction between being stressed 24/7. Hiding all of the time and scared to swim around because no other fish are active in the tank. That's stress that can lead to illness and even death.
Doing maintenance or simply catching a fish is a one moment in time thing. It's survival....something wrong if a fish never get's scared. Not to be confused with real constant stress of aggression and fish scared to swim the tank.


eyann said:


> my LFS only has very small ones right now (mostly Oscars, Firemouth, JD and BA),


They don't have to be exactly the same size. Usually best to introduce 3-4 all at once. 
Of this list, only firemouth and BA I would consider for your 55 gal. And if your going to have more then one of a species then i think it is best to start with 4 or more and understand that even mild mannered cichlids like BA can have fairly high conspecific aggression. 2 males may not get along over the long term.
Also i think it might be a good idea to post a pic of your BA. CA/SA are chameleon-like, and can look quite different under various conditions. Your link, while it is a blue acara, is not typical of what they most often look like.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

BC in SK said:


> Drain the tank right down,


Sorry, right down is some what of an exaggeration. With small fish, no less then 1" of water left as an absolute minimum. But your choice, as long as the water left is not much higher then the height of your net, it's much easier to catch fish if they can't swim above or below the net.
Also, you may want to consider some dither fish to bring your fish out a little more and feel comfortable. There are other options, but IMO and IME, giant danios have about the best chance of any small schooling dither of doing well with aggressive cichlids.


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## eyann (Aug 21, 2017)

Thanx for your feedback. Here is a short sequence with what i think is a BA. 





Something crazy crossed my mind: do you think it's possible that the BA and the JD paired up, hence the aggression?? I never saw that clearly, but once the BA swims by, the JD now turns almost black, and this morning they were turning around each other without fighting, that's the first time i saw them doing that.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Yeah, you're correct. It's a blue acara. 


eyann said:


> BA and the JD paired up,


It's not real common for SA acaras to pair up with CA cichlids, though there are a few reported cases on line. So far, no one has demonstrated that they can successfully produce offspring, even when they do the deed. A pairing between these 2 would be rather unusual and based on your description it sounds more like aggressive display then anything else.


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## eyann (Aug 21, 2017)

Thanx man! I will get 2 or 3 more, hopefully this week end. I went to the LFS yesterday (cause my brichardis just got fries and i didn't have any food for them) and i saw they have decent size firemouth (like 2 inches). So i might be able to get 2 or 3 and see what happens next.


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## eyann (Aug 21, 2017)

So, a quick update. I have added 2 days ago one Convict (2 inches) and one Firemouth (2 inches)...
Well, i hope they need time to get familiar to each other because that's worst than before.
Strangely, the JD is now VERY active, while he seemed depressed before. He's now chasing the salvini and the convict, he doesn't care about the firemouth yet. 
So, here is the scary movie scenario:
- JD chasing BA, Conv and Salvini
- Salvini chasing the Conv and the FM
- BA chasing the Salvini
- RT Shark is still hiding.

I think i failed miserably again


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

You need to remove the salvini.


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## Ichthys (Apr 21, 2016)

Firemouths live naturally in groups...


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## eyann (Aug 21, 2017)

The JD got angry for some reason and is being a real bully towards the BA and the convict. So if i remove the Salvini, i doubt the JD will calm down, and if i add two or even three more FM, i guess the salvini and the JD will be happy to kick them out.
Oh and i forgot to mention: the JD has never been so colorful since i added the newbies. He is just amazing, but well... the goal was to make everyone happy, not only him. 
I'm sick of messing up with that tank, it's seriously something that i obviously can't control. I will allow them some time to settle down, but i guess if it's still the same this week end, i will have to remove them all, don't wanna deal with dead fish every day.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

eyann said:


> So if i remove the Salvini


Since you had attempted to catch it, I was under the impression that a decision to remove it had already been made. 


eyann said:


> i doubt the JD will calm down,


It may end up not being a great choice either, for a 55 gal. and you may very well want to consider getting rid of it, as well.
But I think it has at least decent odds of getting along, long term, in a tank that size. At least in comparison to male salvini, IMO it has much better odds of working out over the long term.
IME, kept them fine with other CA in tanks of similar size to a 55 gal. Altogether, kept JD 20+ years and would generally consider them medium aggression.
Sals, I keep in many tanks for the last 16+ years. Other then at stages smaller then they sell at the LFS, the smallest tank I have kept them in is a 75 gal. IME, male salvini is very aggressive. As a boss of a tank it's not nasty like say, a Trimac, but it has a similar combative nature. "Itchin" for a fight, it really goes out of it's way to start something, especially with other CA.


eyann said:


> 2 days ago (


It's still an issue of introduction which can be tricky.
My suggestion is 3-4 all at once. Even then, they will be disadvantaged for some time, compared to established fish.
Another addition, which I failed to mention, are schooling dithers such as giant danios. Some times, simply bodies in the way, tends to help.


eyann said:


> I will allow them some time to settle down, but i guess if it's still the same this week end, i will have to remove them all


You may very well end up finding CA too much of PITA.
But I do think removing some, rather then all, should at least be considered.


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## eyann (Aug 21, 2017)

ok, i just caught the salvini. i took a plastic bottle, cut off the top and put it back inside out, throw a little bit of pellets inside and put the bottle in the tank. The salvini got inside 2mns after. So i will put him in a quarantine tank for the day and see what happens next. If the JD calms down and the shark shows up again, then the salvini was really the aggression trigger. If not, i will take the JD out of the tank as well and get the two back to the store. i've the feeling that i spend my life there!


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Lol, I know how you feel. I think that is going to help a lot but it may take some time for everyone to feel comfortable. But, dithers like giant danios might be a good option at this point to help bring everyone back out in the open. The JD may have been partly to blame but in my experience, salvinis didn't make good mixed aggression community fish.


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## eyann (Aug 21, 2017)

i'm sure that the LFS guys, when they see me coming, they are like "oh no, not him again" 

Ok, so after 30mns (i know it's not long enough) but believe me or not (i think i will write a movie about this tank, seriously): the shark is out! It's like he "smelled" or felt like the sal was out, do they feel this kind of thing? He was in his cave for about a month, i've been barely seeing his tail from the cave. The FM is slowly getting out, the convict is still freaking out tho, the BA is like "i'm not going out again". Nevertheless, so far, it looks better and more peaceful. Let's wait and see!


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## eyann (Aug 21, 2017)

Here is an update after a week: 
Removing the salvini was a very good idea, it seems so anyway. 
There's still a big aggression though, from the JD towards the BA, the Conv and even the FM. Only the BA is still rather scared and hides a lot, otherwise the others don't seem really bothered by the chasing. But they are eat at the same time now, and none of them have damaged fins. 
The shark though, is back to hiding all the time, i think i will remove it. I was thinking about putting it in the african cichlid tank but it's way too big now. 
So thanx for the advice, even if it's not perfect, it's wayyyyyy better.


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