# Should I forget about SA species given my tap water ?



## santituarte (May 20, 2012)

Hello everybody, this is my first post in CF.
I need a bit of advice regarding a new tank. I had tropical fish during my teens, many different species, among them, scalares, which I loved. I should confess that I didn't pay much attention to water chemistry those days, but my angels were OK and did spawn a couple of times.Now I want to start the hobby again, with a cichlid only tank, a 25 Gal (or something like that: 80 x 40 x 30 cm or 31.5x15.7x11.8 Inches). I had scalare in mind but then I found this forum and fell in love with Apistos, Rams and many others. 
My first question is this: tap water here is pH 7.8 and dGH 7. After measuring it I was sad to have to forget about SA species, but then I read the article by Don 'Z-Man' Zilliox, saying that water chemistry is not such an issue with some Apistos; also, it´s almost right for Bolivian Rams, isn´t it?. Could I at least give it a try with dwarves?
Another question: The 20 G cookie cutter recommends a pair of Apistos or geophagus, but Zilliox´s article mentions something like five or six pairs: to which number should a junior aquarist stick??
Finally, is there some other particular species you recommend for this chemistry? I am interested in color and nice cichlid behavior, and will be happy if they breed but this is not my main interest right now.
Thanks a lot and, please, forgive my non native English.
S.


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## jd lover (Mar 11, 2011)

I said go for it. Fish aren't as sensitive as most makes them out to be.

As a beginner I would suggest only 1 pair in your tank. After you get a little experience you can experiment.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

I agree. Some species are more sensitive than others but I think you'll be alright. The majority of aquarium strain fish have adapted to a wide variety of water conditions. A stable PH, GH, ect is much more important in my opinion than the "correct" one. Keep the water conditions pristine and I'm sure they will do great.

I feel if you scape the tank well, creating two very distinct territories by using pieces of driftwood and plants as line of breaks you could probably get away with two pairs of Bolivian Rams.

Good luck! :thumb:


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## santituarte (May 20, 2012)

Thanks a lot!
I'll start to work and hopefully post some pictures in the near future.
S


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## neutrino (May 4, 2007)

I agree with the posts above. No matter what you've read or been told, SA cichlids as exclusively soft water/low pH fish is a myth that borders on superstition in some cases. The fact is SA is a large continent with a wide range of freshwater habitats and keeping some SA species in soft, low pH is actually just as contrary to their native wild habitat as some would have you believe it is to keep them in higher ph conditions with moderate hardness.

As just one example, consider discus, a stereotypical soft water fish about which some hobbyist 'experts' and articles to this day will warn you of the evils of keeping them in anything but very soft, very warm, acidic water. But the fact is wild discus habitat varies considerably, and while the strains in some regions do live in very soft, very low pH habitat, the waters of others is comparatively cool and pH in the wild can be up to 7.8 (see references below). So while some articles and hobbyists continue to insist on soft, acidic water for all discus, in the wild this is not true of all strains and it's well documented by many that given good water quality and stable conditions many of them do quite well in a fairly wide range of conditions-- within reason, of course. No argument here that there are a few sensitive SA species that will happier and more successful spawning in a limited range of conditions, but most species are more adaptable than people give them credit for and some come from native habitat that may be much cooler, higher ph, and higher hardness than the SA softwater stereotype leads people to believe.

Wild discus pH range:
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=2724

Wild discus temperature range:
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=89


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## neutrino (May 4, 2007)

...just to add... when it comes to some apistos, for example, it can pay to do your research on a particular species, but even apistos can come from a range of conditions, not always soft and acidic and some have to be adaptable in the wild.
http://www.gcca.net/2011-06-25-05-29-02/142-apistogramma-cacatuoides


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## jd lover (Mar 11, 2011)

while i do agree that the temps and ph varies and the article seems very accurate i tend to stay away from articles from that site as i found one:
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... 1338388184
where they tell you you need to buy a ro system unless your water is soft (which isnt neccessary) for discus. and they recomend you feed frozen blood worms as a staple diet which again is bad. they also state discus gets to 6" while some do others do not. some may also exceeds 6 inch and get as much as 7.5-8". i understand every article cant be as accurate but once a website/magazine publish and article that is full of bad info i tend to ignore the whole site as reliable.


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## santituarte (May 20, 2012)

neutrino said:


> I agree with the posts above. No matter what you've read or been told, SA cichlids as exclusively soft water/low pH fish is a myth that borders on superstition in some cases. The fact is SA is a large continent with a wide range of freshwater habitats and keeping some SA species in soft, low pH is actually just as contrary to their native wild habitat as some would have you believe it is to keep them in higher ph conditions with moderate hardness....


OK, now I'm much more confindent with my future SA cichlids. Maybe the key is start with a low difficulty species and gain experience. And, remembering my Zoology classes, it's true that stable values are key, within the range of tolerance.
Thanks for the links also, it's interesting what it says in the gcca article about pH influencing the sex ratio of the eggs in _A. cacatuoides_. Maybe if a I get the rong pH I can become a male or female exclussive breeder.. 



jd lover said:


> while i do agree that the temps and ph varies and the article seems very accurate i tend to stay away from articles from that site as i found one:
> http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... 1338388184


to which of the sites do you refer? It's true, and regarding the Apisto article I was talking about, they write "ph" instead of pH..


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## jd lover (Mar 11, 2011)

while i do agree that the temps and ph varies and the article seems very accurate i tend to stay away from articles from that site as i found one:

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/c ... php?sid=65

where they tell you you need to buy a ro system unless your water is soft (which isnt neccessary) for discus. and they recomend you feed frozen blood worms as a staple diet which again is bad. they also state discus gets to 6" while some do others do not. some may also exceeds 6 inch and get as much as 7.5-8". i understand every article cant be as accurate but once a website/magazine publish and article that is full of bad info i tend to ignore the whole site as reliable.


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## jd lover (Mar 11, 2011)

that is what i ment to put sorry lol had the wrong ling on my clipboard =p

but as i said dont worry about it at all. many "expert" told me that discus needs soft water and i need ro water to breed them. last weekend i had a pair laid eggs and was able to hatched into wigglers before i had my sucker fish eat the on purpose. and let me tell you my waater ph is 8 and the hardness is above the measure charts. fish are hardier than we give them credit for.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

A think its a well known fact that PH, GH and KH do not matter near as much if you do not plan on breeding the fish. To the OP, If spawning is your goal, then you will need to pick more tolerant species such as A. cacatuoides for example. Your water is not too far off regardless, so you will have plenty of options as far as stocking. Tank raised fish are more forgiving anyway.

Pardon my skepticism as I do not intend to offend anyone, but I always cringe when people post that their fish spawned in (insert undesirable water parameter) and leave it at that. Healthy fish in desirable water conditions are going to spawn every 3-7 weeks pretty regularly depending on species, if your spawning rates are drastically below that then I would not consider that a success. Hence why most people interested in breeding are going to try to match water parameters to the species in question. A lot of the stressing over water parameters is from a breeder stand point, as somebody looking to breed are not going to be satisfied with spawns once a year. I'm not surprised that tank raised discus would spawn in hard water, they are far removed from their wild counterparts.


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## jd lover (Mar 11, 2011)

i use my spawn as an example that the ph and hardness isnt important as many have and to this day still say discus egg wont hatch in hard water. if you go to simply you will see a thread about. and this isnt the first spawn either. all the other spawn manage well untill they got eating


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## neutrino (May 4, 2007)

Regarding PFK, just like other hobbyist sources or publications, you have to consider the source (writer of the article or person interviewed) to some degree. In the case of the articles I referenced, the writer is Heiko Bleher, a well known German naturalist who has received scientific awards, has a number of freshwater fish and plant species named after himself, and has written one of the most extensive works on discus to date, a two volume virtual encyclodpedia based on decades of his own research out in the wild. In other words he's as expert as anyone on wild discus habitat, so I think you can consider what he says regarding the range of conditions they live in as authoritative as it gets.


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## santituarte (May 20, 2012)

ahud said:


> A think its a well known fact that PH, GH and KH do not matter near as much if you do not plan on breeding the fish.


OK, that's probably the point. When I started browsing this and other forums I was worried to see the detailed information about water chemistry and I hadn't realized that most of you are breeders. Now that you mention it, it seems logical.


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## neutrino (May 4, 2007)

The thing to keep in mind is it's different discus living in these drastically different wild environments, it's not the same fish living in pH under 5 as pH up to 7.8 in the wild. So depending on the ancestry of what you have in your tank (including generations from wild) it's both possible and understandable for some people to be spawning them quite happily in pH 8 water while that may not work for others.


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## jd lover (Mar 11, 2011)

like i said the article you post was great but for a magazine to pst another article stating completely bad ideas then it just lost a bit of credit. as the whole ph and such if theyre acclimilated right there shouldnt really be a problem. also the tempt will swing in nature even more than what our tanks will allow so we really do pamper our fish too much


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

santituarte said:


> ahud said:
> 
> 
> > A think its a well known fact that PH, GH and KH do not matter near as much if you do not plan on breeding the fish.
> ...


So in conclusion lol:

If you want to breed something (which is my favorite part of keeping fish) then just choose a hardy species. There are plenty to choose from and its likely that you will be choosing one of the easier species anyway. I tend to stick with the less fusy species myself.

JD Lover,

I know with some species, spawning them in hard water if they prefer soft (or vice versa) can cause problems with fry. I wonder if that is why people tend to keep discus in soft water? After all, spawning is usually the easy part, its raising the fry that presents problems.


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## jd lover (Mar 11, 2011)

they say that the problem with discus is that it wont hatch in hard water yet mine got to the wiggling phase before i introduce a pleco to eat the wigglers. been having my pleco eat the eggs since they pair but this time i was late.


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## redblufffishguy (Jul 16, 2009)

I'd go for it. I regularly keep and breed several species of South American Cichlids. My water is at 8.2 PH and 12 KH. I have no issues with the fish at all. In fact, when I sell the offspring, my customers are very happy I use the water that I do because they use that same water. The store owners usually don't loose many fish due to that fact.

Anyway, go for it, why deprive yourself to fun of experiencing the fish you are interested in because the water you have available is not exactly what they are used to in the wild!!


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