# My Mbuna 125



## DesertSparky57 (Oct 17, 2013)

Hello cichlid forum!

I'm proud of my tank and just want to share the story behind it. My setup is nearing its ninth birthday here this fall sometime, I can't really recall exactly when I got it. To say I'm happy with it is very understated. I love this tank, I have had a few small ups and downs but for nearly 99% of the time it's been trouble free and very easy to maintain.

I picked the dimensions I wanted and went to a place called ATM here in my hometown of Las Vegas. Yes, same people with the horrible reality show, honestly it's horrible. I tried but couldn't make it through 5 minutes. Anyways, this was well before the show. They built me one beast of a tank. It's thick crystal clear acrylic with rounded and seamless corners. The overflow is centered on the back wall and the top has two very large lidded openings so I could put huge rocks in without a problem. It is 60"x20" and is 24" tall, close to 125g I think. I've got the overflow plumbed to a Fluval FX5, which I love, and has been running everyday for nearly 9 years trouble free. I've got the trays loaded to the hilt, two with ceramic rings and one packed with carbon in pouches. I've never had anything but clear water, the filter was well worth what I paid for it. The fixture is a no namer compact flourescent, I believe it's near 100w total, I only use half of the tubes, they are 6700k. I keep the blue LEDs on all the time and run the whites for about 6 hours total, 3 in the morning and 3 in the evening.

The substrate is a mix of three different materials. I started with 8 twenty pound bags of Caribbean sand I believe it was called. I mixed 3 bags of a black substance in, I can't recall the name but it is so plants will do better, twenty pounders also. Then I mixed 2 bags of seashells in to the top inch or two once the nutrient/carib sand mix was in. All in all it is 13 bags total. It seemed like a lot to me at the time but I like the thick layer now very much.

Over the years I've been fortunate to come across excellent rock to use in the tank. The majority of the rock is only about 5 years old. It came from 400 feet down below the shores of Lake Mead, right here in Vegas. It's a very hard and heavily grained type of mixed granite. Not really sure what it is exactly called, but it sure looks good in the tank. It took a few attempts, but I managed to load just shy of 300lbs of this chunky, heavy, broken and beautiful rock in to my tank. The work was worth it. These rocks have turned in to an algae field. I never intended for it to be like this, but my fish love it and I think it is a really nice look. It seems very realistic to me, like looking in a real lake. This is the left side. 








There are three massive boulders buried in the heart of the pile, they have never moved and provide 3 large caves, along with many others from the smaller rocks. Here's the right side. 








There are two main boulders one in front to break the line of sight across the tank, and one in the back to support smaller rocks. It forms sort of a cul de sac type area with little caves and tunnels surrounding it.








The plants are anubias, one or two varieties I believe. They do very well and have flowers several times a year, well one real tall flower really, still pretty though. I forget what the grassy looking plant is. Some cryp maybe? I don't recall. A shot of the middle area kind of, with my sub dom, he is always sort of on the full male side of the spectrum but not quite all the way there. He proved to be the nastiest of the bunch, him and the largest female actually. 









As for the fish, right now there are only 4 little fish in this tank. I know it's a shame!!! I had stocked it with about 14 of the Kenyi but over the last 4 years they managed to thin themselves out to the last four! My big male is just over 3.5" followed by two transitionals at about 3" and one little guy at about 2". A part of me wants to believe the little one is a male. I swear I've seen the faintest hint of yellow on his tail, but I may be wrong.








The water here is cichlid heaven, liquid rock with steady 8-8.1, it has pegged every GH/KH test I've ever tried. I stopped testing years ago. This tank is stable as can be, at one point I had 20 or so fish and I tested to follow the bio cycle, the tank is a bio powerhouse. Over the years I've grown to believe that the plants and especially the algae have a tremendous effect on overall stability. I believe a very large group could be kept in my tank, overstock style, but...

I really like the Kenyi and want to build the group back up. I would like to keep 2 species with a total of about 40 fish, maybe more ? What do you think? Should I just do a massive group of the Kenyi? Or try and mix two large groups of two different species? If I do a massive Kenyi school, what ratio of male to female? What ratio will help me hold a steady group of these feisty little Kenyi? Your suggestions and opinions are welcomed. Thanks for reading and for the information over the years. Sorry for the glare in the pics and I will try and get pics of the custom stand I built for the tank up tomorrow along with(hopefully) higher quality pics of the tank itself.


----------



## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I like your rocks, and the tank sounds pretty nice. How about a full tank shot?

The kenyi have one of the worst reputations around. They are very aggressive, which you've witnessed first hand. I have seen, on this site, 8 to 12 females per male suggested. Most don't recommend them at all, and when someone inquires about them a 6' tank is suggested as a minimum. I have never kept them, for this reason.

40 fish is pushing it. If you want to stay with the kenyi, buy about 20 more. You'll have to remove and rehome fish that are getting bullied and hiding up in the corners of the tank. Or remove the aggressor. But you need to do that with all mbuna and Malawis. I know how much of a pain in the butt that can be, having a 6' mbuna tank myself.

If you'd be willing to part with the kenyi, you could easily do 4, possibly 5 groups of different species. Like mbuna that don't have such a nasty rep. Not to say that you can't add another species to what you have, but you would have to avoid any blue barred and yellow/orange colored fish due to the similarities to the kenyi. And if going this route, you'd still need to bump the kenyi numbers way up, IMO.


----------



## DesertSparky57 (Oct 17, 2013)

I've read that the Kenyi are particularly nasty. That's a bummer. I think a massive group would be a sight to see! So maybe I will go another route. Maybe 4 groups total, I'm inclined to believe my group of Kenyi is now all male, aggression has dropped radically and I figure if it was three male to one female it would be a pretty mean tank. Does that sound about right? 








This is the big male. He is about 4 years old, give or take a little. The photo does his color no justice. He has a blue shine to him that is just awesome, his tail is partially see-through with a fan of the most brilliant blue in it. I have dubbed him 'Meany' because he is. He has been tried for murder several times. Unfortunately. 








The whole tank. 








My favorite little area in the tank. 








The tank and stand I built.

So if I was to stock more fish, should I do all male? Or 4 groups mixed M/F? I like the white top afra, I like the chewere, hongi, socolofi, Ngara etc. I mean I basically like all of the Malawi Mbuna. What would be an ideal mix? I am unfamiliar with the disposition of most of the Mbuna other than these amazing Kenyi I've been keeping. If the others are easier than these guys, well that is good news then!

What should I mix in?

Thank you for reading and replying.


----------



## SupeDM (Jan 26, 2009)

First off very nice looking tank. Yes Kenyi can be very nasty fish. They are usualy most agressive with thier own species and others of similar shape and coloration. Second thing is why such a deep sand bed. That would make me nervous, however you stated tank is 9 yrs old so it seems to be working for you. Sand that deep has the potential of creating anerobic areas and releasing toxins into the water. As far as tankmates Copadichroms species did well with my Kenyi I had copadichromis borleyi (Kandango) as well as Melanochromis Johanni in with them. I think that possibly electric blue hap would as well. Basicly the possibilitys are endless. One thing i would recomend though is before adding any fish to the tank be sure to quarantine them and also right before adding them rearrange the rockwork to disrupt territories and help to eliminate some agression. On a side note about the sand as you increase the bioload of the tank be sure to monitor the water chemistry and do ocassional smell check, sand stirring to keep the formation of pockets hydrodgen Sulfide gas to a minimum. It will smell like rotten eggs when it off gasses. I had a saltwater tank with a 6" deep sand bed when i first started fishkeeping and it would occasionaly release a big burst of bubbles and the stench was rediculous. X-wife would always say tank farted.


----------



## DesertSparky57 (Oct 17, 2013)

Thank you supeDM.

I have never heard of the substrate creating gasses like that. I will read up on it. I've never had anything like that happen though, I regularly vacuum and sort of stir up the top inch or even more. Years ago when I started this tank the big idea on substrate at the time was to let the fish dig, so sand was popular even deep like mine.

One note though, the center is somewhat pushed forward against the glass and creates a bit of an illusion that there is more sand than there really is. Mr. MeanFish likes to push piles of it around from time to time and his dump off spot has been the center as of late. Freakin pain in my butt that fish is, so pretty though.

I will be keeping the Kenyi. Finding some tankmates may be a pain though. I will just have to keep reading some more and find out what my most promising options are.

Something with a totally different color will be obvious first requirement. Maybe some pseudotropheus elongatus like a chewere. Those dark black mixed with the Kenyi, and then something bright white like an albino variety or a white top afra.

I feel that more reading is due on my part. It just seems like every time I come across info regarding mixing, the exact opposite info is just as easy to find  even now, I will admit it, I think the only reason these Kenyi did what they did is because there were too few of them in there to start off. The one male ended up being older than the others and gained a significant size advantage right out the gate. Even 9 years in and I am still a novice, so my observations may be entirely incorrect.

I really had my heart set on a large Kenyi group, but ignoring all the advice about these fish available would be unwise on my part.


----------



## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

Great looking tank! I actually enjoy that show, but do not take most things they say as doctrine. 

If you like the kenyi you might consider saulosi. They are an opposite morph of the kenyi - blue barred males and yellow females - but they are not as aggressive. With mbuna you always want to have more females than males and one per species is best except in the largest of tanks (8' larger I'd say).

You could mix almost any mbuna species provided they don't look similar and you have enough rocks. I'm really partial to aceis, but there are a lot of good choices out there. I think saulosi, aceis, rusties and maybe white socolofi would look cool. You could do the kenyi instead of the saulosi, but I would highly recommend getting more females and rehoming all but one male. This will really help cull aggression.

Kenyi must not like plants that much. My mbuna eat every plant I've tried in their tank except anubias.


----------



## amcvettec (May 11, 2012)

I think a P. elongatus chewere would do well and I would add Labeotropheus fuelleborni OB plus females for your dominant male (remove the subdom males). I would consider the tank stocked at that point.


----------



## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

A couple things...
You've had the kenyi for about 4 years, or so? The largest fish is around 3.5". This one...








Kenyi grow large. At 4 years of age, all of your fish should be full grown. The fish above looks spectacular. In fact, it doesn't look like a kenyi to me at all. I'm not saying it isn't, but if I saw that picture I would never guess kenyi. It's body shape seems off. It's more elongated, and not that wide bodied, zebra type profile. You said earlier that your sub dom and largest female were the nastiest of the bunch. Do you have a picture of the girl?

Assuming you're stocking additional kenyi, I would be inclined to stock another tough species. Like the labeotropheus suggested above.

I think pseudotropheus cyaneorhabdos 'maingano' would fit nicely. A striped fish, with bold blues. A fairly common fish. Do not confuse with melanochromis johanni, as they are often sold under the same name as maingano, and vice versa. The johanni start out all yellow/orange, and females stay that color. They would look similar to the kenyi males.

M. elongatus chewere is an awesome looking fish. I've seen mods on the site classify them as a blue barred species. I have no experience with a fish that has a rep like the kenyi. But I wouldn't push the envelope on stocking a tank around them. The elongatus types are aggressive, and should be OK with the kenyi?

What would be awesome is if you pulled off a show tank with kenyi in it! Something I have not seen.

Can you provide any more info on the fish you have currently? Just wondering why they're still so small in size. Did you get them as juveniles? Were they all light blue with bolder stripes at one time?


----------



## DesertSparky57 (Oct 17, 2013)

Thanks iggy. Yes as far as I know they are Kenyi. But I too noticed the body shape as being a little different than pictures I have seen. They all started as black striped, blue bodied juveniles, with the one male(the picture you quoted) being just a hair larger when I got them all. The smallest one-








- I always assumed was a female, it always grouped with my other females that are now gone. I never witnessed spawning with this little one though. I have witnessed spawning between the other three, all yellow like the big guy, and my other females, like I said which are all gone now  lately I have been thinking that the little one above is just a very sub sub dom male. After the big male wiped out the big female aggression just about disappeared, maybe he is a he after all ?

I may be a little small on the size of the one pictured. He is hard to measure, seems like the tank plays tricks on my eye so I estimated lower than what I thought. I'd say at the very most he may be 4". I had read yesterday(here in species profile section) that 6" was considered adult... this has me doubting calling them Kenyi just a little bit.

I am by no means well educated on many species, maybe one or two I would say I sort of know my way around, what other species follow a similar pattern of maturity as the Kenyi?

This is the best I can get of the #2 male. 








The big meany refuses to hold still. I may get a shot at him tomorrow.


----------



## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

The only other one I could think of is saulosi, but they are, as i said, and opposite morph. Are you sure the blue one isn't a male and the yellow a female?


----------



## DesertSparky57 (Oct 17, 2013)

To be perfectly honest, no I am not sure 

Unless I am remembering incorrectly, the males have the big egg spot right? Wow. Maybe I am even more uneducated about these fish than I thought.

But, I have seen the small blue and black ones, not as small as the one pictured above, holding eggs before. I had a few of what I believed were females that looked just like the little one above at one point, they all held eggs at one time or another but none ever carried for the full time, I assumed too much action in the tank so the female either ate them or was forced to eject them due to bullying.

The big male(?) pictured above would pose and float sort of sideways, nose down just a bit, he would flare as if flexing like a bodybuilder. Then he would shoot around in a large half circle or so and do it again, almost trying to get perpendicular to the females eyeball, like hey look at me! Then shoot around again and again until she would move a little and he would shake like he was spazzing out, shimmery sort of. I witnessed this a bunch of times but never actually saw an egg. Ever. But I would come back the next day and a female would be holding.

I looked at more pics of Kenyi and I'm starting to think I may have something else.

Should I post in the 'ID my cichlid' thread?

I tried to fix the focus in the picture of the big one. I think it may have messed with the color though. 








His fins are crisp now. Anyone reading this thread want to take a shot at a positive ID?


----------



## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

If they are holding then they are females. Females can have egg spots too sometimes.


----------



## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Kenyi all start out blue with bolder bars. I did not intend to have you second guessing yourself on your own fish. I'm no expert, and am not very confident when it comes to identification. I still think your picture of the largest male looks off for a kenyi, but maybe it's just the picture. As clhinds said, egg spots are not an effective way to sex these fish. Male and female mbuna can have several egg spots. I have a small Metriaclima estherae(red zebra) around 2.75-3" that has 7-8 anal fin egg spots.

There's always the chance that the fish is not a pure bred kenyi. In that case, it would be impossible to positively ID it.

Let us know if you post the pic in the 'ID' thread.


----------



## DesertSparky57 (Oct 17, 2013)

Iggy you actually posted up exactly what crossed my mind when I looked at pictures of Kenyi here in the species section. I've also read that a common **** mix bred fish found in petsmart tanks labelled as Kenyi are actually a mix of Kenyi and the fish you mentioned, the red zebra. I'm not sure if that is just some internet fairy tale or if it is even possible. Well it would be possible right? Red zebra and Kenyi are both of the same genus correct?

Either way, I'm fairly certain that my fish are not 100% Kenyi. The big male looks right color wise, but his size is fairly off the mark for his age, and I believe his overall shape is a little off also.

I'm starting to think that I may want to try an all male mix Mbuna tank. Do males still color up when in an all male mix?


----------



## amcvettec (May 11, 2012)

All male Mbuna tanks are difficult to do. There are not enough different species to be able to have a slightly overstocked tank to disperse aggression. Mbuna, I feel, are still more territorial even without females present.

If you want to do all-male, I would suggest going the hap/peacock route instead. Your tank is big enough. You can try a few more mild mannered Mbuna with them like a Yellow Lab and Acei.


----------



## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

amcvettec said:


> All male Mbuna tanks are difficult to do. There are not enough different species to be able to have a slightly overstocked tank to disperse aggression. Mbuna, I feel, are still more territorial even without females present.
> 
> If you want to do all-male, I would suggest going the hap/peacock route instead. Your tank is big enough. You can try a few more mild mannered Mbuna with them like a Yellow Lab and Acei.


I have four peacocks with labs and aceis in my 75G tank and it works fine. The mbuna pretty must leave the peacocks alone and stick to harassing each other, but since I have enough females its not an issue.

Its not uncommon for mbuna to be hybridized with red zebras for some reason so it wouldn't surprise me if the was true about petsmart. I've even gotten a few from local breeders simply because they leave them in tanks with similarly colored fish. Fish can't tell weather or not their mate is a little more orange than it should be nor do they care.


----------



## DesertSparky57 (Oct 17, 2013)

Exactly cl. I'm sure they are a mix, there's no reason why they would be so hard to ID other than that. All the posts here with fish that are unable to be positively ID'd usually touch on hybridization and/or poor breeding control, either accidental or not.

It's okay though. I am by no means a hardcore purist of cichlid genealogy.  I am also not a breeder, so mutt-fish is fine with me.

I will say that I believe whatever they are mixed with mellowed their attitude a bit. There is just no way that these are the notorious Kenyi. They just don't seem that bad to me I guess. My previous setup in this tank before this had a big Jake in it that was just rotten. He would whoop up on these guys.


----------



## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

DesertSparky57 said:


> Exactly cl. I'm sure they are a mix, there's no reason why they would be so hard to ID other than that. All the posts here with fish that are unable to be positively ID'd usually touch on hybridization and/or poor breeding control, either accidental or not.
> 
> It's okay though. I am by no means a hardcore purist of cichlid genealogy.  I am also not a breeder, so mutt-fish is fine with me.
> 
> I will say that I believe whatever they are mixed with mellowed their attitude a bit. There is just no way that these are the notorious Kenyi. They just don't seem that bad to me I guess. My previous setup in this tank before this had a big Jake in it that was just rotten. He would whoop up on these guys.


It was probably yellow labs then. Red zebras aren't as mellow as labs.


----------

