# Sick Jack Dempsey



## Stoic (Feb 4, 2012)

New to the forums, Ill try to give as much information as I know.

I have been trying to search for my problem, and haven't found any similar problems.. 
My tank set-up. I have a Dempsey that is around 8 years old, that was in 100g tank. The tank has had the same set up for about 6 years. I havent introduced any new fish in over 6 years, and only lost 2 synodontis fish a year ago due to old age. They where 10+ years old. I had a pair of convicts that multiplied to 10 convicts. The breeding pair are also 8+ years old. I also have 2 Raphael Catfish that are 10+ years old. I do water changes, maybe once every 3 weeks, at about 13 gallons a change. I do not use anything to neutralize the chlorine during water changes. I havent had any problems in years, so i thought this system was working well.

My problem:I noticed about two weeks ago, the Dempsey seamed to have issues breathing, and was hanging around near the top of the tank. I had my wife take some water to be tested a couple days ago. They told her, the Nitrate levels where very high, Hardness level was high, and the PH was low(below6.5 i think). Sorry i dont have the exact values. After hearing this news, i transferred all the fish to a newer aquarium that i recently bought. I tested the water of the new tank, and it was within all normal ranges for the fish. This was 3 days ago. I lost two convicts before I transferred the rest of the fish to the new tank. The convicts looked healthy when they died. . 
My Dempsey, has an arched back, and maybe has lost some color on his scales. He sits at the bottom of the tank, and rarely moves. Im uploading two pictures to show the problem. 
I dont noticed any parasites on the fish, and his feces looks more white then normal. All the other fish are doing well in the new tank. 
I dont have the new tank completely set up yet, i didnt want to stress the Dempsey out any more than he is. I do have 2 aquaclear filters and a flufal 404 currently running in the new 150g tank.

I did do an agressive water change about a month ago. I cleaned out both my aquaclear filters at the same time, and a water change shortly after. I usually only clean out one aquaclear at a time. I had extra time during the holidays, so I might have went overboard.
Did I slowly poison the Dempsey with bad water?
**Edit My old tank I had the heat around 82F when i noticed the problem. The new tank sits around 78F. The heater cant keep up with the bigger tank

The red dot on one of the pictures is a reflection of the camera or the heater light. 
Thanks for any help...


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## Stoic (Feb 4, 2012)

I found this picture, that i took sometime at the beginning of the year. Maybe 2 weeks ago, before I was having any issues.


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## elirn (Apr 14, 2009)

I am experiencing a similar issue with a well established 20 gallon long. the lone occupant convict has been in the aquarium for a couple years and now the fish is acutely ill. It is inactive at the bottom of the aquarium, but is not arching like your fish. There does not appear to be any parasites, but the fish's color is washed out.

I have done massive water changes (50%) the last three days and provide antifungal and antibiotic treatments. I am not confident that my treatment regimen will prove successful and am curious what I am experiencing.

My water is hard and the nitrites are normal, but nitrates are up along with the ph. I am assuming this spike is responsible for the fish's current state.

I apologize for hijacking your forum, but I believe we are experiencing the same type of event.

Best of luck
Eli


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## mlancaster (Jul 24, 2009)

Hi *Stoic*,

I am not particularly good at treating or diagnosing fish. However, I believe I recall the curved spine would indicate sporozoa or (I am afraid to say it) tuberculosis. As I stated, I do not know how to treat these dieses and do not know if my diagnosis are even correct.

But in case it is tuberculosis; I would recommend getting heavy duty pond gloves that go up past your elbows for when you do maintenance on the tank. I wish I could point you to where to buy them, but I received mine as a gift. I recommend this because fish tuberculosis is a dieses that can be transferred from fish to humans. I do not mean to scare or worry you; just passing on information I received when I had some sick fish.

I also wanted to note it could just be from old age. Eight years old is a full life for a JD.

Keep us posted.

Thanks,
Matt


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

So a month ago you did the aggressive water change/cleaning, then two weeks ago the dempsey started having difficulty breathing and then at some point he began to look like we see him in the photos. Additionally you lost a couple of other fish just prior to moving all fish to a new tank.

The timeline on these things is often key to figuring out what happened so I want to be sure.

The two convicts that just died: what symptoms did they show in the days/week before they died?
Were they eating the day before they died? Were they hanging at the top? Sitting on the bottom?

One guess, and it's only a guess as there's not enough info to know for sure, is that when you did the aggressive cleaning you wiped out most/all of your beneficial bacteria, then two weeks later your dempsey started showing symptoms of ammonia poisoning--difficulty breathing --as the tank went through the nitrogen cycle.

Another guess, your ph in the tank dropped over time rendering any ammonia in the tank non-toxic to your fish but then when you did the large water change, with water that had a higher ph, the ammonia reverted back to its toxic form.

Have you done anything to cycle the new tank? If not then you want to be sure to do daily partial water changes of 30-50% using a good quality dechlorinator. Feed the fish sparingly and you should buy a test kit, (test TUBE type better than test STRIP kind) and test your water daily.

Really sorry for the loss of your other two fish and the Dempsey in the shape he's currently in. 
Such a beautiful fish

Get back to us with more info, please.

Robin


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## Stoic (Feb 4, 2012)

Well, the water change its self wasnt aggressive. It was normal for me, 13-15 gallons of a 100gallon tank. The aggressive part was cleaning both filters at the same time. 
As for the lost Convicts, one had a gash in the side of him. I dont know if this is normal for convicts, but you cant sneak up on them. They flip out. Even turning on the light, they dart in every direction. I think he ran into something, at full speed. It took him a week to die. The other Convict looked fine, when i pulled him out of the tank. As for eating, my daughter feeds the first most of the time, so I havent witnessed the Dempsey eating. Since the beginning of the year, i have been working crazy hours, so I havent had the time to really pay attention as much as I used to.

With the new tank, i set it up quicker than I wanted. I was going to have it running a week or so before moving the fish. I already had water in the tank, but nothing else going. I had the fluval cleaned(it came with my used tank), but i wanted to replace all the internal filtration parts before using the filter. Which I didnt replace.. I did add stress coat, and stress zyme to the water, before transferring the fish. I did pull both aquaclear filters off the other tank, when I transfered the fish. I dont know for sure if it was a smart thing to do. 
As for kits, I have an old test tube kit, but its has long expired. I threw it out around the time I cleaned the tank. I finally have a day off (Sunday), that I can spend researching this problem more and to go buy a kit to test the water.
With my wife doing most of the problem solving, by talking to fish stores. I dont have a lot of specific information. 
Since I will be doing a large water changes everyday, should I add salt to the water?


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

First: I hear you on being busy and not having the time you need. It happens.

The new tank needs to be cycled. Running the tank for a few days or weeks and adding stress coat/stress zyme won't cycle the tank. (There's a few article in our library that will give you more info on cycling)

I'm not sure from reading your post if you're using the old filter _with_ the used filter media still in it?? The used filter media--as long as it hasn't dried out will still have some beneficial bacteria on it--how much bacteria depends on how long it was running in your previous tank after you cleaned it. 
If the tank is starting fresh--little or no beneficial bacteria in the filter, then the tank will go through the cycling process and the fish will be subjected first to toxic levels of ammonia and then nitrite--something we obviously want to avoid . 
So that's why I've advised doing the daily partial water changes--if your tank does goes through the cycling process then the water changes will lower the ammonia and nitrite levels so your fish won't suffer. You really need a good quality dechlorinator--something like Seachem Prime--it will remove ammonia and detoxify nitrite. Sodium chloride, (aquarium salt), 1-2 teaspoons per ten gallons will also help to detoxify nitrite. Usually the cycling process takes about 3 weeks.

A product called Dr. Tim's One and Only will instantly cycle your tank--might want to pick some of that up if you find yourself at a fish store along with a test kit.

So sounds like you're going to have a busy day off tomorrow. Hope the Dempsey makes it. I would go really light on any feedings until you're sure the water conditions are stable.

Robin

On a 100 gallon tank, depending somewhat on how many fish you have and how heavily you feed them, you probably want to be doing weekly partial water changes of 25%--high nitrate levels indicate that you're not doing enough on the water changes.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

If you've moved the substate and other decorations from the old tank into the new, that will also hopefully have some good bacteria to keep things going. As long as it didnt dry out or get washed.

And as far as your question about salt and large water changes: adding salt, (sodium chloride-aquarium salt) to the aquarium is one of those things that some people swear by and others only feel is necessary for treating specific illnesses such as ick. If you normally add a certain amount of salt per gallon to your tank water, continue to do so. If you don't, no need to now UNLESS there is nitrite, then, as I said, adding 1-2 teaspoons per ten gallons will help to detoxify the nitrite.

Okay enough. You'll be so busy reading my answers that you won't have time to work on your tank.


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## Stoic (Feb 4, 2012)

First off, thanks for all the help and suggestions. 
I missed the posts this morning before getting to work on the aquarium. I did do similar things you suggested.

When I did the transfer of fish, I did use the two aquaclear filters with the old media in it. The fluval404 filter I did clean out, before using. The fluval came with the tank used, and I didn't trust it. Plus I was planning on cycling this tank before transferring the fish. 
Today I did a water change, and tested the water. I also finished setting up the new tank . I did bring in the rocks from the old tank. They didnt dry out, but i did rinsed them all off before putting them in the new tank. The wood pieces I did scrub with a brush, before putting them back in the tank. I also added some live plants to the tank,and changed out my charcoal in the fluval and one of the aquaclear filters. 
The water tested fine on everything. They where test strips, so I dont have actual numbers. The only possible issue might be the water is to hard. I will have to research if that is a potential problem. 
The Dempsey is swimming around the tank more, but he cant straighten out his back for long. It seams to tire him out.

I have been told by friends in the past, that I wasnt doing enough water changes. I never had any fish die, so I thought all was well. From now on, I will be testing the water regularly and doing more scheduled water changes. I only had 11 fish in the 100g now 150g. 8 convicts, 2 Raphael cats and the 1 dempsey. I will also pick up a better testing kit tomorrow, and look for that Dr Tims stuff. 
Thanks again.


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## elirn (Apr 14, 2009)

How's your Dempsey?


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## Stoic (Feb 4, 2012)

He died yesterday. He lived to be over 8 years old. I know thats not old for a Dempsey. My last Dempsey lived longer and moved with me to 4 different states.

I did do some wide spectrum medication, but it didnt seam to help. I was thinking about a heavy medication treatment, but decided against it. The way he swam was very odd. He couldnt straighten out his body. I didnt want to put him threw anything, with very small hopes of success.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions. I have learned a lot, in the last few days searching threw the forums.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Really sorry to hear that. 
I think once they get bent like that that it is very difficult to bring them out of it so I don't blame you for easing back on more intense treatments.

Again, sorry for your loss. He was a beautiful fish.

Robin


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## Stoic (Feb 4, 2012)

Thanks. 
Not that I can replace him, but with death comes a new beginning.


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## mlancaster (Jul 24, 2009)

Hi *Stoic*,

Glad to see you have some new little JDs. In my opinion, 8 years is a long full life for a JD.

The decorations in the tank look great.

Thanks,
Matt


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