# Rams - social or solitary?



## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

I keep reading differing opinions on this one. And maybe it's that Bolivians and Blues are different and I'm putting them together in my mind? But I've read in different places that Rams in the wild are mosly solitary except for breeding time. Then I've also read multiple times that they are social creatures and it's better to keep a small group in a tank because they're very social... One one hand I've read that having more Rams disperses aggression, and in another I've read about people with 3 Rams, and one gets left out when the other pairs off...

So which is it, in your experience/opinion?

I have a 65 gallon (3 ft long) tank, and want Rams once my tank gets more established. I'm vascillating between just getting maybe 5-6 Rams, or getting one pair of rams and 3 apistos. Or getting one pair of Bolivians and one pair of Blues... or..... :-?

I'd love to have more than one pair of dwarf cichlids because I'm a big fan, but ultimately I want what's best for the fish.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

I find that blovians are best in groups of 6 or more, since it makes for much more entertaining tanks, with all the flaring and sparring. Blue rams (or any other variants), I find, don't really mind, but do better in a mated pair. I prefer keeping my dwarves in pairs/trios, since you get to see a lot more behaviour than you normally would.


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

When you've kept a trio, have you had any problems with a pair forming and then harassing the third? I've heard of that but I know part of it depends on the tank setup and the personalities of the individual fish...

So to clarify, you're saying that in your experience, Bolivians like groups, but Blues do better in a pair?

I appreciate your input.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

Essentially, yes. Although when I seperated a breeding pair of bolivians and put them in their own 20, they didn't seem to mind at all. However, they weren't nearly as fun to watch. For the blues, when I had six in a 75, they just paired off and mostly kept to themselves. And I should have cleared that part up: I keep apistos in trios, or ratios of 1m:3f, since apistos do harem spawn, and don't always pair off.


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

Thanks!


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

OK, one more question... I have a 3-ft long 65 gallon tank (planted, with rocks & wood). Would you do 6 Rams in that tank or is that too many?


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

I wouldnt... You could try it if you want, but have lot and lots of driftwood/rocks, and be prepared to separate a couple of them.


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

Ok, 4 it is. Thanks once again!


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

Do you think they would give a pair of gobies (stiphodon elegans, to help eat algae) a hard time since they're both bottom of the tank types?


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## Z90a (Sep 25, 2011)

For allergy I'd get a couple ottos. They get only about an inch and only eat allergy. They won't touch the eggs. I feed mine allergy wafers. I put half a wafer every other day.


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

But I loooove the gobies....


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## Z90a (Sep 25, 2011)

Don't gobies bury under the sand in like little sand caves? Or is that a different fish. And your tank must be really tall if it's 60+ gallons and is 3 feet long cause my 30 gal is 3 feet long.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

otos are your best bet. I believe the gobies also require brackish/salt water, at least later on when they get bigger. And yes, the gobies will sift and burrow in the sand. Honestly, I wouldnt mix bottom dwelling cichlids with other bottom dwelers; its usually not a good idea. BTW, Z90a means algae, not allergy


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## Z90a (Sep 25, 2011)

Yep that would be my iPhone correcting the word. :thumb: 
I want a school of Cory's at somepoint but I won't put them in my bolivian tank.


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

I knew you meant algae. 

Yes, my tank is 24" high. It's weird because the standard seems to be that 55 and 75 gallons are 4 ft tanks but 65 is 3ft. So I need to be sure to have a good mix of fish at different levels.

I had heard that rams can pick on cories, but I've also heard of people keeping both. (isnt that how it always is?) But I also know that cories are happiest in larger groups. And that maybe the people it worked with just had mellow rams. I think they're cute but don't think I have enough "turf" for 6 cories in my 3ft tank wih the rams. It does have lots of rocks, some driftwood, and today will be filled with 20 plants (if they arrive as scheduled.) I wonder if behavior makes a difference- cories be-bop around everywhere, not really paying attention to territory so much, while gobies hang out more and do understand what a territory is- their males will squabble with each other, too. I'd just keep one or a pair.

The gobies I want live in freshwater streams I've been told - I wouldn't want to keep a brackish fish in conditions it wasn't happy with. I also don't want anyone to get picked on.

What do you think about kuhli loaches?

Thanks for your input.


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## Z90a (Sep 25, 2011)

Any type of loach will happily eat up eggs. They are great and cool fish tht will kill any snail moving but they will eat eggs if given a chance. If your not trying to breed then they could work out. But if trying for some fry then maybe not a good choice. 
Also depends on the individual rams tho. Some are great at defending there nest while some arnt


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

The kuhli loaches won't eat snails. I'm sure they'll gobble up eggs though, probably most other fish would if given the chance, no? I'm not planning on breeding at this time. I would think that if you really wanted to, you'd have a separate breeding tank? Or could you just pull eggs and raise them? I have read that Bolivians are great parents, actually. Better than the Blues supposedly. But I have zero first-hand experience. 

I have always had kuhli loaches and i love them - they are cool fish! The ones I had in my last tank about 7 years ago would come up and eat out of my fingers. They are so adorable.


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## ADG (Jan 2, 2011)

I don't have a problem with the 6 cories in with my rams. The rams bicker and squabble amongst themselves and no other fish ever gets caught in the crossfire The rams won't tolerate them near their eggs when they have them but they simply chase them a short way off.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

If you're not going to breed, then go nuts. And yes, I agree that most breeding should occur in isolated tanks with just the parents and maybe a few otos. With rams, I find that bolivians made better parents than tankraised blues/GBR/EBR/GR, but my wild blues were about as good as my bolivians at parenting. I had a blue rams in a 90g with discus once, and the rams were so aggressive that they kept the cories to the lower-middle parts of the tank :lol: I doubt your bolivians will be nearly that bad though.


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

If I were to do 4 rams, should I get a bunch and keep 2 pairs, or try for 1 male, 3 females?


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

I always get 6-8 juvies if I want a true mated pair; I find that this way the bond is much stronger and they're much less likely to squabble/fight/break the bond.


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

Yes, I'm hoping my LFS will let me do that. Do you think 2 pairs is preferred then?

Still trying to work out my future Ram situation obviously, though it will be a month or two until I'm ready for them.  You just hear so much differing info out there.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

2 pairs to be safe; 3 pairs if u wanna take a risk and try.


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

I've decided ll only do 4 of them....

What I meant was, should I shoot for 2 pair, or shoot for a group, with 1 male and 2 females?

Thanks so much for your help, BIB!


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## jsmeesterr (Nov 28, 2011)

Kuhli loaches will defanitly work! Get about 7 of them


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

Great, thanks!


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

Completely missed the last update, sorry :lol:

I find rams in general more interesting when they're paired up, as they defend their territories much more vigourously, so I'd get 2 pairs. Plus, in the case of pairing fish, if a pair forms, then the odd one out will almost definitely get picked on.

Go for the khuli loaches if you wish; they're fun to watch and will hand feed, but know that if you ever wish to breed, you'll need a separate tank.


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## magpie (Nov 12, 2011)

Thanks for your input once again!


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