# C.Furcifer probably "karilani"



## PrinceG

Hi evereyone! 

I recently set up a 5 feet tank with 8 C. Furcifer. My first thought was to insert 2 males and 6 females or more.So I orderd these guys and since yesterday they are swiming in my tank!
They are about 2 inches and all of them look the same.
I wonder if it is possible to recognise who is the male at this size??Are the male's fins bigger at this size or will be later??Should i watch them and understand it by their behaviour?? :-? 
I would also like to know if there is a "protein limit" at the food i feed them. 
I read that i should feed spiroulina flakes mostly and frozen mysis or krill.

Thanks in advance.Any suggestion could be useful!


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## nodima

while not an expert on c Furcifer, I do have some juvies in my 150. My largest is about 4 inches long, and there is still not any definitive signs of sex. From the advice I was given a while back, NLS is fine to feed them. I also augment this with some freeze dried mysis shrimp. I really can't wait to see the males color up! They have been in my tank for 3 months now and seem happy.

Good luck with yours, and I hope to see pics.


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## Furcifer158

males won't begin to get the long pec fins till they hut around 5 to 7 inch. There really is no way of telling male from female at that size. One way to try and guess is that if you can see the fry when your buying them and they are all from the same batch, most of the time the males are already a bit larger. This is not guaranteed though.

NLS is fine I have always and still use it. They are easy to overfeed and you can cause the to get bloat. There is no need to supplement it with any other food. It may just cause you to wind up over feeding them.


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## Jolly cichlids

I can tell the sex at 2.5 inch usually. At the size your saying you should definetly be able to tell, males will have longer ventral fins. You said they are very new too your tank so it might take them alittle bit to show color. 
2.5inch








3.5inch








4.5inch








if you could post some pics i could give you a better guess as too ratio


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## PrinceG

Thanks a lot for the iformation!
So i should be patient.

Don't you think that variety to their diet would have better results at fish's health and colour??
I ask because unfortunately NLS is not imported in my country yet.That's why i asked about the "protein limit" of the food because i have to decide which quality flake foods i should buy.

Some fotos:




























I hope i gave them all the space they need.Any suggestion or further information is always pleasant.


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## prov356

> Don't you think that variety to their diet would have better results at fish's health and colour??


If you find a good quality flake/pellet, the 'variety' is built it, and it'll have everything they need.


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## Furcifer158

> Jolly cichlids said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can tell the sex at 2.5 inch usually. At the size your saying you should definetly be able to tell, males will have longer ventral fins. You said they are very new too your tank so it might take them alittle bit to show color.
> 2.5inch
Click to expand...

What kind of tape measure are you using :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Those are not 2.5" :thumb:


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## Furcifer158

PrinceG

Your set up looks great :thumb:

You might have to rearrange your rocks if you want more than 1 male to color up.

Also your Furcifer are two young to sex


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## Charlutz

Furcifer158 said:


> males won't begin to get the long pec fins till they hut around 5 to 7 inch. There really is no way of telling male from female at that size. One way to try and guess is that if you can see the fry when your buying them and they are all from the same batch, most of the time the males are already a bit larger. This is not guaranteed though.
> 
> NLS is fine I have always and still use it. They are easy to overfeed and you can cause the to get bloat. There is no need to supplement it with any other food. It may just cause you to wind up over feeding them.


Agreed, males tend to be more aggressive and a bit larger (possibly because they fight for more food), but they usually don't look different until they are 3.5" or more. Sometimes, you'll even get subdominant stealth males that will repress their color and not have full fin growth in order to keep clear of the early developing aggressive males. They'll even school with the females. In addition to looking for the ventral fin growth, you can also look at the anal fin as it starts to get pointed in the males.

IME, when I overfed and killed my featherfins (did this more than I care to admit when I was new to the genus) it wasn't bloat, but I think an intestinal blockage. I overfed high protein foods like frozen mysis to try and get them to grow faster and they couldn't clear it through their digestive tract. They would blow up like balloons and it was painful to look at them all stretched to the point of bursting. Since then, whenever I feed mysis (1x or 2x per week) I either fast them the next day or feed them spirulina flakes or pellets. Seems to clear their system and I haven't had this problem in a while.


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## noddy

Charlutz said:


> Furcifer158 said:
> 
> 
> 
> males won't begin to get the long pec fins till they hut around 5 to 7 inch. There really is no way of telling male from female at that size. One way to try and guess is that if you can see the fry when your buying them and they are all from the same batch, most of the time the males are already a bit larger. This is not guaranteed though.
> 
> NLS is fine I have always and still use it. They are easy to overfeed and you can cause the to get bloat. There is no need to supplement it with any other food. It may just cause you to wind up over feeding them.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, males tend to be more aggressive and a bit larger (possibly because they fight for more food), but they usually don't look different until they are 3.5" or more. Sometimes, you'll even get subdominant stealth males that will repress their color and not have full fin growth in order to keep clear of the early developing aggressive males. They'll even school with the females. In addition to looking for the ventral fin growth, you can also look at the anal fin as it starts to get pointed in the males. IME, when I overfed and killed my featherfins (did this more than I care to admit when I was new to the genus) it wasn't bloat, but I think an intestinal blockage. I overfed high protein foods like frozen mysis to try and get them to grow faster and they couldn't clear it through their digestive tract. They would blow up like balloons and it was painful to look at them all stretched to the point of bursting. Since then, whenever I feed mysis (1x or 2x per week) I either fast them the next day or feed them spirulina flakes or pellets. Seems to clear their system and I haven't had this problem in a while.
Click to expand...

Plus one regarding the anal fin, this is usually the first indication of males.
Another thing you can do, is shine a flashlight on the fish and see if there are any reflective, colourfull scales (males). Your still quite a way from that though. Patience is key with these guys.


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## PrinceG

Thanks a lot all of you once again!

Furcifer158 In the future if i finally decide to keep two males coloured up i will probably place the rocks in the middle of the tank so they will avoid seeing each other!

For their diet i plan to give 2 quality spiroulina flake food mysis evrey 10 days (1 day before i do water change) and i might order NLS.


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## Furcifer158

PrinceG said:


> Thanks a lot all of you once again!
> 
> Furcifer158 In the future if i finally decide to keep two males coloured up i will probably place the rocks in the middle of the tank so they will avoid seeing each other!
> 
> For their diet i plan to give 2 quality spiroulina flake food mysis evrey 10 days (1 day before i do water change) and i might order NLS.


Sounds like your all ready to keep some amazing fish.

If you can I would order the NLS, I am bias to it like most people on this forum 

Keeps us updated on there progress :thumb:


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## Myrock

> What kind of tape measure are you using :lol:


Those are pretty big.


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## Longstocking

I feed my furcifer flakes mostly ( with mysis occasionally).... I use a product here in the US so I can't help ya but mine breed fine on flake. Just find a flake with good quality ingredients and you should be fine. They aren't easy to bloat up.... but they can bloat like Charlie stated.

A flake that comes to mind that you can probably find in your country is Sera Flora.


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## PrinceG

Longstocking thanks a lot! I prefer spirulina flakes from "Ocean nutricion".

it's been a week since my fish are swimming in my tank and i can see some dark "spots" in 3 or 4 of them.
I love the way they swim and eat.They are adorable!


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## shon982

Anyone know if the dark spots in juveniles are a sign of being females?
I have some with the dots which are small and some without which are bigger which I assume as males
No colouring on males at all


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## Myrock

The spots? No. Agressiveness and pelvic fins are most likely the first signs. I fed mine Ocean Nutricion and that stuff works great. Add something else for protien though.


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## PrinceG

Hi everyone!
Once again i have some questions.
My fish are ok and i wish i had more time to observe them even more.
The problem is that there is a lot of aggressiveness in the tank.After feeding these guys they stay close to the bottom of the tank and start chasing each other.
So if males are the most aggresive i am sure that i have more than 4!I think that this is a huge problem.  Is n't it??????
4 of the aggressive fish are showing a little black colour in the end of their fins.
Should i change some of them with other fish that maybe are female?or not yet?


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## Myrock

Not yet. Let the kids play. I would wait to see what males look better than the others. Then use the best looking 2. Split the tank in halve with rocks with hiding spots. The most dominant ones once they finish the (king of the hill game) may actually start moving some sand and every now and then do a dance. I have one a lil bigger than yours doing the tail shake. When he does this his fins get darker. You still can have a male acting like a female just to avoid fights or to steal sand like mentioned earlier till a very older age. So it's still to early to make changes. But dark fins are a good sign of it being a male.


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## Myrock

You said change some with other fish? How many do you have in all?


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## PrinceG

Thanks a lot Myrock i will let them play  
I have 8 fish in my tank but if it's necessary i will return 2 or 3 fish to the aqurium shop i ordered them and take others.


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## Myrock

Its hard to start with 8 because you get more males than females with C.F.. If money will allow you to I would get more. At least 4-7 more. If you want to end up with 2 males 6 females the more the better. Then trade in the extra males when they get older before they get to aggressive.


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## PrinceG

My tank is 5 feet isn't it small to add more fish?
Myrock belive me money don't allow me to do anything  but i love this hobby so much that i will spend some more.Also except from money these fish are really hard to find them here.I have to order them again from Europe.
The store i ordered them have still 4 fish.I'll wait about 3 more weeks and then trade mine with them.

P.S. I paid about 250 dollars for 8 fish.It's about 31,2 for a fish. How much do you guys buy furcifer there???


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## Myrock

At that size $18 - 22 each. But then you pay for shipping too. At the local LFS who knows. You dont see them often. At 2 inches they should be ok in a tank that size for now. I had nine in a 135 gallon 5 males 4 females at 4-5 inches. I had 2 dominant males on each side. The other males would color up every now and then but when they needed sand they would act like a female, turn circles with one of the males and steal sand for digestion. lol. That kept my 2 dom. males colored up a lot.


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## PrinceG

Hi everyone!
Its been 3 months now since i last introduce my fish in the tank and everything it's ok!
There are 3 males for sure!One of them has started to colour up more than the others.  
I have a question for you guys.
Have you ever heard or read about furcifer eating their own poop???Some of my fish do it occasionally.
I feed them ocean nutricion spiroulina flakes and vegi flakes 3 more quality spiroulina and vegi flake food and mysis once a week.
Any suggestions :-?


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## Longstocking

Fish usually will mouth the poop but don't actually eat it.


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## PrinceG

Longstocking said:


> Fish usually will mouth the poop but don't actually eat it.


Thanks for your answer Longstocking but mine are actually eat it.
I had fish that just mooth the poop but theese guys eat it.
I dont know if this sounds crazy but they hunt each other to eat the comming out poop after feeding.

My first thought was that something is missing from their diet or that poop is full of spirulina that is not assimilated.


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## PrinceG

Hi everyone!  
I'd like some help here.
I bought my fish as karillani.
I think that theese are a diffrent variant. :-? 
I know that they are young enough but if someone could recognise the variant i would be really grateful cause i have to order females.

Check some new pics(the best i could do):

























































































































Furcifer or Foai? Ruziba? kabogo Green?


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## PrinceG

At least could you tell me if they are Furcifer or Foai?


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## sapir7

i would say furcifer because of the yellow on the anal fin.


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## PrinceG

sapir7 said:


> i would say furcifer because of the yellow on the anal fin.


It could also be a foae "Magara"


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## Longstocking

It's really hard to tell unless they are fully colored up.

I did think furcifer/foai magara though , as well... due to the yellow tip on the fin. But again.. it's too hard to tell at this point.


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## PrinceG

Longstocking said:


> It's really hard to tell unless they are fully colored up.
> 
> I did think furcifer/foai magara though , as well... due to the yellow tip on the fin. But again.. it's too hard to tell at this point.


You are right Sarah I knew that but i had an opportunity to order confirmed females. 
Tomorrow is the last day that I can give my order So I quite this idea cause I don't know what thoose guys are.

It's too anoying that they sold to me as "karilani".


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## PrinceG

Hey everyone!
I have some new pics from my cyathos.I wonder if it easier now to recognaise the variant.
















I'd also want you to know that my fish have yellow at the end of their pelvic fins.


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## dmiller328

They kind of look like the blue furcifer near Karilani at Sibwesa. Or the parents could of actually been caught right around Karilani since C.furcifer lives with C.foai but at different depths all throughout that region.

That is the tough part about buying furcifers and foai b/c I see the names mixed up all of the time on pricelist.


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## dmiller328

Another thought is furcifer Caramba b/c it sort of sounds like Karilani and could of been a mix up.really tough call.


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## dmiller328

Here is an example of a list from a Czech breeder

http://www.tanganika.cz/english/fish-export/Tanganyika/C

All of them are listed as furcifer while it is clear that out of the 3 pics are of 2 foai and only 1 furcifer.


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## PrinceG

Thanks a lot for your opinion *dmiller328*
I don't know why but i believe that theese guys are from Magara or a coast nearby.
*Other opinions about the variant????*

It's been 6 months now and I still don't know the variant of my cyathos. :-? 
My patience is running out but i will wait.....


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## PrinceG

Hi everyone.
Two questions for you:

It's still hard to recognise the variant of my cyathos from the photos above?Do you need better photos?

I'd also like to ask you about females behaviour.They won't fight at all??They just stick together?
Will they claim a teritory or a cave for example?Is it possible to share a cave 2 or 3 females or thats a reason for fight?


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## PrinceG

Check out some new photos:


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## PrinceG

One more.....


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## PrinceG

Is it possible now to recognise the variant?
I'm still confused furcifer or foai? Or furcifer/foai Magara?Or Nyanza? Or something from the north part of the lake? :-?


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## Fogelhund

Thanks for the PM, but I'm not really an expert in Foai/furcifer variants, so it is best to leave that to others.


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## Longstocking

could be ..

Cyathopharynx Furcifer Ruziba or Burundi...


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## PrinceG

Longstocking said:


> could be ..
> 
> Cyathopharynx Furcifer Ruziba or Burundi...


 :thumb: 
Thank you very very much Sarah.


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## dmiller328

It look more like Caramba to me,still can't be 100% though unless you research where you received the fish and their supplier to see if they were accidentally sent or mislabeled.

Check out pics here http://www.dcg-online.de/encyclopedia/c ... i-caramba/

Also on airfish German exporters website under stock list, says that they are rare.


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## dmiller328

They also look like Rutunga variety that is in between Magara and Kigoma and across the lake from Caramba.

Googled pics and they are extremely hard to tell apart from the Caramba

Your fish are looking very good and happy by the way.

On your ? of female behavior,my wild Kigoma females are usually calm but do not really school together.When one of the females gets close to breeding she will get a little territorial.


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## PrinceG

dmiller328 said:


> They also look like Rutunga variety that is in between Magara and Kigoma and across the lake from Caramba.
> 
> Googled pics and they are extremely hard to tell apart from the Caramba
> 
> Your fish are looking very good and happy by the way.
> 
> On your ? of female behavior,my wild Kigoma females are usually calm but do not really school together.When one of the females gets close to breeding she will get a little territorial.


Thanks a lot dmiller.
Its improssible to learn from my supplier where he found them.Unfortunately in Greece is extremly difficult to learn the coast that fish came from.
At the LFS you can see the tanks with the fish and a small tag with fish variants written like this for example: "Cyathopharynx furcifer" "Tropheus moori" "Altolamprologus calvus" and not "Cyathopharynx furcifer *Caramba*" "Tropheus moorri *Moliro*" Altolamprologus Calvus *black Congo*"

I agree that they look like Caramba BUT....Caramba are furcifer? or foai?
The link u gave me says Foai Caramba, i've found them like furcifer Caramba too!
My fish cause me terrible headaches.......searching.....asking for them!
I belive that from Burundi to kigoma, all that north coastline, have only one variant.Cause my fish look like Caramba, Magara,Rutunga, Burundi and Nyanza.

If you read my topic from the beggining u will see that i dont have any females(I maybe have one single female :wink: ) and im asking you guys to help me find my cyathos variant and then order some big sized confirmed females from Europe.I dont want to end up with hybrids.

Thats why i need your help.Till then i promise you i will keep my fish really happy


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## Longstocking

Just so you are aware there is really no way to ever really know. If I had to put money on it I would bet they are from burundi... but again there will never be any way to say for certain. In truth, it would be best to just start all over.


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## PrinceG

Longstocking said:


> Just so you are aware there is really no way to ever really know. If I had to put money on it I would bet they are from burundi... but again there will never be any way to say for certain. *In truth, it would be best to just start all over*.


I have already thought it Sarah...and as u say its the only way. :thumb: 
For now i'm gonna set up a bare bottom four feet tank and put in all the males except from the A male and one fish that looks like a female.Its the only one that has circled anal fin.
I'll give them all the space and time they need also the best conditions and maybe one day they will breed.


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## Longstocking

I would try 2 males and one female... see if that works. Or the female will get chased to death.


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## PrinceG

Longstocking said:


> I would try 2 males and one female... see if that works. Or the female will get chased to death.


I am afraid to try with 2 males but i wil!
I will keep an eye on them.
Thanks a lot for the tip and the information Sarah!


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## PrinceG

Hi everyone!
I tried 2males and the female in the main tank and fish had a lot of stress .The A male lost his colors at all.I thought that they will be fine in a few days but didn't. So i placed one more male and evreything turned back to normal.My A male colors up again and dancing above his bower.I have less agression for sure in the main tank than before with all fish in it.My female is ok.She get chased some times so a made the aquascape more suitalbe for her.
(before i move the extra males)









My problem is the bare bottom 4feet tank with the 4 males.They are always stressed!They eat normaly but they are always stressed.
Do u think that this permanent stress could lead them to bloat?

P.S. If its possible could a modearator change my topic's tittle from "C.Furcifer probably Karilani" to "C.Furcifer probably Burundi"
Thanks in advance


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## PrinceG

*About one year after......*


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## whiskeyriver

Jeez...gorgeous.


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## PrinceG

PrinceG said:


> *About one year after......*


So i need your help again about the variant.
Till now:
Sarah said maybe Burundi 
Dmiller328 said maybe Caramba
and Kneko said maybe Sibwesa
Any other opinions???


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## kenko

Haha - yeah, I'm almost thinking Magara now seeing these new images. Uncanny with the same fin markings, and with a darker blue too. I figured Sibwesa based on some I've seen and the history with your fish and Shaun's.

As we know, especially with furcifer/foai, depending on your lighting, color-correction, and angle of fish - you can get a different looking fish. I think all the variants are just a big conspiracy, since females look generally the same - who's to say that somewhere along the way a different female hooked up with a different male - and through the years all it takes is one person to name it something else, then the whole bloodline is skewed. There are definitely some color variants that could go either way...and again depending on the other factors, someone could surely mistakenly call something that is not what it is. It's just doing my head in with my own too... 

I change my vote to Magara.


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## PrinceG

kenko said:


> Haha - yeah, I'm almost thinking* Magara now seeing these new images*. Uncanny with the same fin markings, and with a darker blue too. I figured Sibwesa based on some I've seen and the history with your fish and Shaun's.
> 
> As we know, especially with furcifer/foai, depending on your lighting, color-correction, and angle of fish - you can get a different looking fish. I think all the variants are just a big conspiracy, since females look generally the same - who's to say that somewhere along the way a different female hooked up with a different male - and through the years all it takes is one person to name it something else, then the whole bloodline is skewed. There are definitely some color variants that could go either way...and again depending on the other factors, someone could surely mistakenly call something that is not what it is. It's just doing my head in with my own too...
> 
> I change my vote to Magara.


Ok Magara.
How can you explain that reddish coloration on their body?From what I've seen on the net magara don't get that red.
I'd be grateful if someone could post a pic of a magara fully colored here.
Also the most pictures I've seen on the net for karilani and sibwesa are somehow confused....in my opinion karilani have yellow ending at fins instead of sibwesa that don't.

I accept this pic as a sibwesa cause its from Konings:









Do you accept this pic as karilani with yellow ending at fins?:


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## kenko

This is where pictures can skew an opinion as opposed to seeing it in real life. Plus, this is also goes to show the slight cross-over features that some fish exhibit. For instance, Tom's Tangs has a Blue Sibwesa which exhibits the same fin markings as well as the yellow highlights seen here: http://www.tomstanganyikans.com/photofish.asp?id=127

Regarding the red, in your previous pictures, I didn't notice that much red in your fish, as they appear mostly blue, and in the newer shots from Jan 23, you show a more intense blue that I hadn't seen previously.

So, let me ask you, what kind of lighting are you using? For the pictures, are you using ambient light, or are you supplementing with a flash? Is your tank in an area or room that may have reds and oranges? I only ask these to see if the fish is reflecting anything, whether it is a specific wavelength of light, or even from something near by the tank... As we know, these fish are highly reflective, and again, depending on the angle seen or shot with a camera can very well skew the colors slightly - plus everyone's monitors are different, video cards, ambient light, own eyes, even the sensors in the camera, etc. etc. can certainly make for slight variations of color.

Which picture that you have seen or taken represents your fish the best? If I didn't know the fish and saw it with fresh eyes, I would have thought that the first three pictures from Jan 23 are a different fish than the bottom three. For example, I color corrected a couple of your shots as they were showing off quite a bit of Magenta, and as a result your pictures are going to be slightly reddish. Once corrected, the very slight tints of reds on the fish shifted green - making the fish blue at the top and skewing green toward the bottom.

Here's a picture of a Magara I found that looks very similar to yours: 


Getting fun yet??


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## PrinceG

kenko said:


> This is where pictures can skew an opinion as opposed to seeing it in real life. Plus, this is also goes to show the slight cross-over features that some fish exhibit. For instance, Tom's Tangs has a Blue Sibwesa which exhibits the same fin markings as well as the yellow highlights seen here: http://www.tomstanganyikans.com/photofish.asp?id=127
> 
> *I told you about Sibwesa what i think.*
> 
> Regarding the red, in your previous pictures, I didn't notice that much red in your fish, as they appear mostly blue, and in the newer shots from Jan 23, you show a more intense blue that I hadn't seen previously.
> 
> *My first 3 pictures are taken without flash.The other 3pics that follows are with flash.I haven't seen cyathos having red without a source of lighting hitting on them.Even the pic I post above as karilani. *
> 
> So, let me ask you, what kind of lighting are you using? For the pictures, are you using ambient light, or are you supplementing with a flash? Is your tank in an area or room that may have reds and oranges? I only ask these to see if the fish is reflecting anything, whether it is a specific wavelength of light, or even from something near by the tank... As we know, these fish are highly reflective, and again, depending on the angle seen or shot with a camera can very well skew the colors slightly - plus everyone's monitors are different, video cards, ambient light, own eyes, even the sensors in the camera, etc. etc. can certainly make for slight variations of color.
> 
> *I use led for lighting my tank. smd type. Two led strip like this http://www.v-tac.eu/index.php?page=shop ... 71&lang=en
> To tell the truth i believe that the light i use don't show fish's best color.
> Thats the only source of lighting while pics where taken plus the camera's flash some times.*
> 
> Which picture that you have seen or taken represents your fish the best?
> 
> *Pics that Thausan show at his topic.*
> 
> If I didn't know the fish and saw it with fresh eyes, I would have thought that the first three pictures from Jan 23 are a different fish than the bottom three.
> For example, I color corrected a couple of your shots as they were showing off quite a bit of Magenta, and as a result your pictures are going to be slightly reddish. Once corrected, the very slight tints of reds on the fish shifted green - making the fish blue at the top and skewing green toward the bottom.
> *
> Check this also. Pics are taken with a cellphone.First with flash second no flash...
> As you see the first has no red instead from the second that has some.
> Also check the scales of my fish near his belly and check the scales from the pic with the magara you post. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Here's a picture of a Magara I found that looks very similar to yours:
> 
> 
> Getting fun yet??
> 
> *To be honest not yet*


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