# Confused about Caves and Rocks



## Yajna (Oct 20, 2009)

Hello, Everyone. I've been a lurker for awhile now and I have to say I think this forum is excellent. I am not new to fishkeeping, but am a total noob when it comes to mbuna which I want to put in a 55G tank.

I'm very confused about caves. Most of the pictures and video I've seen using real rock don't appear to have anywhere near even the same number of caves as there are fish in the tank. (For that matter, tanks with "artificial" caves don't even seem to have that many.) I've seen so many mbuna tanks that have a few rocks resulting in a few crevices, if anything, or alternatively have over half the volume taken up by rocks resulting in a few caves, but mostly there are just alot of uncovered crevices or nooks and crannies that appear completely unable to accommodate a 3 inch fish, let alone anything bigger. As beautiful as the tanks may be, I just don't see all the caves which so many people say are required. I'm not trying to be critical here. I'm just trying to learn how to make my tank work well for the fish and why I'm displacing a third of my water volume with rocks trying to create a non-existant cave. If my goal is really to create territorial markers or just give them something to chase each other around, then selecting and placing rock becomes much less of a challenge.

So I guess my question is how many caves do I need to create? And again, nooks and crannies and crevices fit for nothing larger than fry do not qualify as a cave as I'm defining it. If an example helps, let's say you are looking into a single species tank of say 15 p. saulosi. What is the minimum number of caves you'd want to see? And by cave I mean something a 3 inch fish can fit completely into or under.

Thanks for the read and I really appreciate any input. It has been alot of fun learning about these fish.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I had the same questions when I started. The answer is: we don't really mean caves with ceiling, walls and back. And you'd be surprised how small a crack a 6" full bodied fish can fit into, LOL.

You have the male territory requirements and the female "need to hide and escape" requirements. Try to have one or more territories for each male. An ideal territory is a space on the substrate with rocks defining the one space from the next. So like a cubicle, it will have a floor and walls but the walls don't have to be solid. Block line of sight when you can, but even a marker so one fish can own one side, and another fish can own the other side.

Females will hover in groups overhead. When they are chased they need hiding places and escape routes. Now think crevices they can swim through, just barely. Ledges they can lurk under. Cracks they can dart into. Small is important. If the space is bigger than the fish, the other fish will swim right in too, and the original inhabitant doesn't get it that she could defend...she just swims out and into danger.

Here is a layout of 1/2 of my 72" tank showing how I planned the "territories". As you can see, I had 12 territories and 5 males. The rockpiles on top of the diamond shapes provided the rockwork for the females to use as shelter. It worked well.


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## thunderbolt (Nov 14, 2008)

Take a look at my tank and it will give you some idea of what DJRansom is talking about. On the left side I did replace the pot with a 3 inch pvc coupling as it is on the right side. They are covered with sand inside and out just to give them more of a natural apperance. The stone is stacked so there are many caves and hiding places and some are swim thru. I covered the bottom with egg crate to protect it. The stone sets on the egg crate and substrate added after to keep the stone stable. If stone is stacked properly it is very stable. After I filled the tank I tested the stone to be stable as I could make it. This will give you some Idea. This is just one tank of thousands . I went with what I had available in my area. Go to the photo section and you can find all the pictures to give you more Ideas.


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## actionyak (Mar 16, 2004)

DJR, That's a neat diagram of your rocks. Can you post a picture of the finished product?

Just like Thunderbolt, I've got eggcrate down first, then my base rocks, then sand around those, then stacks above. When I need to catch fish, I can pull out all of the higher rocks while leaving the base rocks in place. The fish definitely seem to make use of the various sizes of nooks and crannies and overhangs. (The pic was taken at feeding time, hence none are in their caves.  )


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I have a pic of the rocks built on a bench, but not the in tank. For that I'm waiting for my new camera after the holidays. Besides, this was when the mbuna were in the 72" tank, now it's Tangs, different rock set-up. The substrate covered the terra cotta saucers.


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## actionyak (Mar 16, 2004)

Aha... I'm starting to picture it now. The top of that workbench represents the footprint of your 72" tank? I like it!

I'm looking forward to seeing the plan modified for the smaller tank. Did you pretty much just remove a pile or two, and keep the overall plan the same?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The blue tape is the tank. I split the rocks between 75G malawi, it inherited 3 piles.

The 125G Tang tank inherited two piles from the original tank and got a new pile of it's own. But they are much lower. Tang tank rocks cover those cigar shaped ceramic caves. Running for almost a year and as the fish matured I've had fry from caudopunctatus, cyps and juli's. Waiting for the calvus.


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## Yajna (Oct 20, 2009)

Thanks, guys. DJRansome, I have a much better feel for what I'm trying to achieve now. The diagram and explanation make total sense to me. So I guess there isn't really a need for a "cave" per se at all. I can see that the idea is a wide variety of holes to swim in or through. What stack height have you found works well? I'm envisioning plenty of room above them for the females to swim around and check out their options. Hope this doesn't sound like too crazy of a follow-up question...given what you said, what is it that brings so much interest in creating caves with concrete, pvc, pots, etc. in a mbuna tank? (I get that other types of cichlids use them for spawning.) I'm assuming mbuna utilize them for a sense of security, but they aren't really necessary even for that or in any kind of behavioral way for courting or spawning--for mbuna anyway.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yajna said:


> What stack height have you found works well??


The advice has always been stack the rocks to the surface. I usually get about half way, but mostly because I don't trust the stability too much higher. And if I want to keep those sections of substrate open, the stacks would have to be unnaturally vertical.



Yajna said:


> I'm envisioning plenty of room above them for the females to swim around?


 The females will stick pretty close to the rocks. With the males on the substrate and the females at sides or top of rockpiles, the higher you stack the more of the height of the tank will be used.



Yajna said:


> what is it that brings so much interest in creating caves with concrete, pvc, pots, etc. in a mbuna tank?


They do like the caves too, but not exclusively. Note in my design, in every rock pile there is a terra cotta saucer covered with slate. Meant for the catfish but the mbuna turn sideways and join them in there. And creating 10 caves under the 5 rockpiles there are 2 PVC pipes, one open to the back and one open to the front. The males will lurk in there and defend the substrate in front.

I did find that the males don't like the territories on the ends of the tank, but I always find my holding females there, especially when they are about to spit.


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## Yajna (Oct 20, 2009)

The more I learn the more excited I become to actually get my tank going and gather some firsthand observations. Thanks again for the great replies! I'm going back to the landscaping lot again today. This will be the third time I've been there, but today I'm actually going to buy rocks, LOL.


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## Hthundar (Apr 10, 2009)

> Here is a layout of 1/2 of my 72" tank showing how I planned the "territories". As you can see, I had 12 territories and 5 males. The rockpiles on top of the diamond shapes provided the rockwork for the females to use as shelter. It worked well.


DJRansome,

Can you post a few pictures of what your tank looks like with this layout?

Thanks!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Hthundar, I have posted what pictures I have (rocks on the bench). I have never posted pictures of any tank that I have but hope to remedy that soon. I have a slow point-and-shoot camera and no special lighting. All my tank pics come out looking awful with strange colors and out of focus fish.

I'm getting a new camera and lighting set-up for the holidays. After that I'll try to post.


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## happyhap (Nov 2, 2009)

Greetings all. New boy to this forum but not to fish keeping. Would really like some advice/ feedback on my project for a Hap tank. Bin keepin a few blue dolphins for a while and just got me new tank 

The tank I will use is a 100 gallon tank, gonna use sand and volcanic rock. Tap water where I live has a ph of 8.5 ppm and 40 ppm Nitrate. I have an internal filter designed to run the tank and an FX5 external. Standard two tube lights, which are nice and bright, and I planned to heat to 79f.Blue background which i will fix with an oil based fixer to stop water creep between the glass and backing. Gonna push 300 litres an hour of air through an air stone 24-7, and change 25% a week once up and runin. Once set up and cycled I planned for 7 Cyrtocara Moorii 1m 6f - which I have already, they are about 4-5 inches, the male being the largest at 6 inches. I wanted to add Protomelas taeniolatus, Aluonocara baenschi, Placidochromis electra (undu) or if I can get them Placidochromis mdoka instead. I planned to house five/six of each.

Whats your thoughts on choice of stock and stocking levels? 
Should I use 2" Pvc pipe to create caves hidden by rockwork and installed to make diamonds as suggested to create territories?
Foods?
Please feel free to help me in any other ways!

:-?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Haps are different than mbuna and need more open swimming space, less rockwork. What are the dimensions of your tank, those are pretty big fish.


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## happyhap (Nov 2, 2009)

Sorry for the delay, I have been away, gratefull for your help. The tank I have is a Rio 400 - 151 x 51 x 51 cm


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Well first haps and peacocks will crossbreed. So it's pretty unusual to keep mixed gender, multi-species tanks.

Second, those are big fish and I'd be thinking more about trios or quads than keeping 6 of each.

Haps and peacocks don't need heavy rockwork like mbuna, they like more open swimming space but still appreciate an occasional rock to lurk beside.

I like New Life Spectrum Cichlid Formula for all my africans, herbivore and carnivore alike.

No need for an airstone at all IMO, and how are you going to lower your 40ppm nitrate from the tap? That's the maximum safe level. You will want to plan on 50% weekly water changes as a starting place and tailor to the needs of your fish from there.


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## happyhap (Nov 2, 2009)

Thanks for your help :thumb:


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## vfc (Feb 13, 2007)

I use Cichlid Stones for caves in my tanks. They are secure places for fish to hide in. They displace very little water.

Here is a link to one of the sites that sells them.

http://www.kensfish.com/Chichlidstones.html

Here is a picture of one of my Fonts hiding in the large stone.


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