# So-dead-tropheus Demasoni



## the village idiot (May 6, 2008)

I feel like Pharaoh facing one of the plagues here. I have a 100 gallon aquarium, which I set up with the help of a few very excellent people on this site and I'm suddenly having a problem. One-by-one my Pseudotropheus Demasoni are going to that big fish tank in the sky. Below are the details:

Stock:
13ish P. Demasoni, 5 P. Acei, 6ish L. Caeruleus, 6ish M. Estherae, 1 Rubberlip Pleco

Stymptoms:
A number of my P. Demasoni have white mouths. I don't see any signs of it being a fungus and I assume it's from fighting, though I don't see any huge brawls happening. The afflicted fish will typically sit at the bottom of the tank for several days (though occasionally they will hover near the top) and then die. I should note that several of the fish that have died have not had white mouths, which leads me to believe that isn't part of the problem.

Water Parameters:
Ammonia - 0, Nitrite - o, Nitrate - always below 10, pH 7.8+, I've forgotten the GH and KH readings but the term "liquid rock" was applied to my water when I did post the readings.

Decor:
Lots of lace rock, white t-grade colorquartz sand (it has been speculated by others that this is the cause, but given how highly it was recommended by people here, I can't imagine that being the case)

Maintenance:
The aquarium is filtered by 2 Rena XP3's and I typically change the water twice per month. This is less than I'd like but time has become a rare commodity recently and, according to my water tests, the water doesn't seem any worse for the wear.

Feeding:
I feed small feedings once or twice daily and fast the fish once per week. Foods include Omega One Kelp Pellets, Omega One Kelp Flakes, New Life Spectrum Cichlid Formula, Seaweed Selects and every two to three weeks I give a very small amount of freeze dried brine shrimp as a treat. I'm a chronic over-feeder, so my idea of a small feeding may be bigger than someone else's, but I haven't noticed the afflicted fish being bloated. I've never actually seen a fish with Malawi bloat, but I used to have an insane amount of bettas, a few of which got dropsy. If Malawi bloat looks anything like that, it is definitely not the problem.

General information:
The tank has been set up around 8 months. When it came to fish, I was always one to experiment with things people said wouldn't work and almost always ended up having to return massive amounts of fish. While there were rarely any fatalities, it was getting old (not to mention expensive) to have to constantly rearrange and re-set up tanks. With this tank I did it strictly by the book, doing what was recommended by those with successful aquaria and much more experience than I, which makes my present situation all the more frustrating.

Within the first month of the aquarium being set up I lost two or three fish, but none since then until now. The P. Demasoni seem to be the only ones afflicted by the illness. It started about 3 weeks ago and I have lost about 4 Demasoni in that time. As I said earlier, I don't see a lot of fighting in the tank. An occasional nip here and there is about all that I've noticed.

I appreciate any help you can offer. It irritates me to no end to lose fish like this.


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## Jason S (Feb 7, 2003)

Obligate pathogens will get to all the fish, regardless of species, so I doubt this is the problem since only one species is affected. The demasoni themselves are likely the problem. These guys are remarkably tough on each other despite your mention of little aggression. I've kept them several times before and only once successfully in a group of less than 20 or so. They may not necessarily be tearing each other up, but the stress from constant territory marking and chasing can weaken individuals making opportunistic pathogen infections more likely. Water quality and maintenance sounds alright. If you see the fish visibly stressed after your noted "heavy" feedings [clamped fins, scraping, etc...] consider cutting back a bit on the feed and perhaps feeding smaller amounts more often if that's possible -this will reduce the maximal amount of dissolved nitrogenous metabolites in the water when they spike post-feeding. If the trend continues I would consider: getting more demasoni to help spread the aggression among individuals, identifying and removing extra demasoni males, or going with something a bit less harsh on each other like Pseudotropheus saulosi.

As mentioned previously, demasoni are really rough with each other. White lips from jaw locking aggressive encounters is the norm on these guys.


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## the village idiot (May 6, 2008)

Thank you for your reply, Jason S, and for making it through my ridiculously long post (sorry about that...just wanted to make sure I had all the details in there). I'll admit I had to go pull out a dictionary to read some of it, but I'm always up for learning bigger, better words. :lol: I'm glad to hear it isn't necessarily me doing something wrong. I was infuriated when I was hearing it was the sand because it would mean taking the whole tank apart to replace the sand, which is something I'm not up for these days. The stress of the constant aggression makes a lot of sense to me, and I'm glad to know the white lips are normal, too, as I've never seen that before.

Based on what you said about their behavior after feedings, I don't think I'm overdoing it. There is never a moment during the day when my fish act sluggish and clamp their fins. It's always fins erect and ravenous behavior. I will, however, do smaller more frequent feedings when possible.

I have one follow-up question I'm hoping you'll be kind enough to answer. My Demasoni are approaching full-grown (near 3 inches on most of them). I only have access to small specimens for new purchase (I'd say they're around an inch long, maybe even slightly less). Would buying these smaller Demasoni just be dooming them to a quick death once they're in the company of the much larger specimens in my tank?


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## Jason S (Feb 7, 2003)

No I wouldn't put any that small with adults; maybe introducing a group of 6-8 at 1.75-2.00" size but not at 1" size. You might try and identify the dominant male(s) and hold them in net breeder type box [if there is no other aquarium to place him/them in separately] to give the others a chance to recover and condition. I'm concerned with the number the group is currently at you'll continue to have individuals receive excessive aggression and be eliminated. How big are the M. estherae? Having a dominant male or two of another species can sometimes reduce the aggression of demasoni on one another. The acei and Labidochromis are passive enough they will not bother but a larger male Metriaclima or other suitably robust large mbuna might keep the demasoni from one another a bit but there is no guarantee.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Bloat and dropsy are two totally different things.

Dropsy is usually caused by poor water quality, and commonly affects bettas because of the conditions they are kept in (most of the time BEFORE we get our hands on them). The body will swell (from organ failure), scales will stick out, and eye problems will sometimes go along with it - pop eye or cloudy eye.

Bloat is believed to be intestinal parasites, usually brought on by a stressor of some sort. (Demasoni tend to provide stress without any assistance from us, especially when you have an overly high male load.) The main symptoms are spitting or refusing food (usually your first indicator that something is wrong), white stringy feces, reclusive behaviour, bloating OR emaciation, followed by death - they can seem to die quickly or linger for weeks.

I think if I were you I would take a look at the two bloat treatments below in the links, and perhaps pick up some meds and be ready, but watch for further symptoms and indicators in the meantime.

For now, you can add epsom salt at 1 cup per 100G as a preventative - it serves as a mild laxative and will aid in preventing those who aren't yet infected from becoming infected.

Now...With all that being said, you may just be dealing with typical demasoni aggression and a heavy male load, so it may be that you need to add more females to put a stop to it.

How many other fish of those different species are in the tank?

(Just in case you aren't aware, you should not salvage/distribute fry from either the estherae or yellow labs, as they can crossbreed and shouldn't be housed together for breeding purposes. :thumb: )


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## the village idiot (May 6, 2008)

Jason S - Thank you again for the response. I'll check around and see if there are any stores in the area that can order me some larger specimens of demasoni. I think divine intervention may be required in order for me to catch a particular fish in that tank with all the rockwork. Even without it, I'm about as skilled with a net as an elephant with arthritis. :lol: My m. estherae are, I would guess, about 4". They don't seem to live up to all that I've heard about m. estherae being incredibly aggressive, but it could be going on behind the rock where I wouldn't see it.

cichlidaholic - Thank you for the detailed explanation of the difference between bloat and dropsy. The name "bloat" was a bit misleading to me. I read the treatment thread in this forum, and I'll go about getting the necessary medication, as well as the epsom salt. Is this disease transferable to other species of fish? I have a gourami in another tank that has been getting very emaciated and I'll admit that I don't use different cleaning instruments, as I should.  Bloat still seems a little "fishy", so to speak, as it hasn't affected any of the other fish in the tank...only the demasoni.

As to the m. estherae/l. caeruleus fry, thanks for the advice. Rest assured I will not be distributing any of the fry. At the first sight of any m. estherae or l. caeruleus fry, I will be purchasing a group of cuckoo catfish to intervene in further spawning. Any of the initial fry that I'm not able to catch to feed to other fish will live out their days in my aquarium. I understand the importance of keeping the breeds pure, and while I suspect that I have purchased some hybrids of both species, I am committed to responsible practices in that regard so as not to contribute to the problem.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I find the name "bloat" very deceptive, as well. :wink:

There is also a disease called "skinny" or "wasting" disease that can cause fish to lose weight and appear emaciated. You might also read up on fish tuberculosis.

However, it is not uncommon for ANY disease to only seem to affect one species. Don't ask me for answers on that one... :roll:

I have never heard of a gourami having actual bloat, but I can't say that it isn't possible, either.


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## the village idiot (May 6, 2008)

> However, it is not uncommon for ANY disease to only seem to affect one species. Don't ask me for answers on that one...


:lol: Can I ask you where babies come from then? My parents have been very evasive on that subject. 

It's good to know it can only affect one species, though it defies explanation. I guess the reasons are less significant, but I'm glad to know it's possible. Thank you again for all the information.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

the village idiot said:


> > However, it is not uncommon for ANY disease to only seem to affect one species. Don't ask me for answers on that one...
> 
> 
> :lol: Can I ask you where babies come from then? My parents have been very evasive on that subject.


I'll send you the book I used with my kids... :lol:

We'll have a question and answer session once you've read the whole thing!


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