# Central American or African Cichlids?



## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

I recently started to set up my 40 gallon tank. Its almost done i just need to finish ceiling a leak and it will be up and running.

I had decided this week i was going to do a Central American tank, but im having second thoughts.

I origionally like the africans but my uncle had lots in his 120g and they all ended up dying because of the acidity level. I hear they are sensitive fish? are they hard to maintain?

If they aren't any harder then having Central american cichlids let me know i would love to hear what you think.

BTW i am new to cichlids and fish keeping thats why it needs to be on the easy side to take care of. I need to start slow then work my way up, ill be getting a 100g in the summer 

so plz help, tell me if i should get central americans because they are easier, or Africans because they are just as easy.

btw can i put a rope fish with the african cichlids?

thanks :fish:


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## fancy diver (Mar 21, 2009)

Your not gonna be able to do much in a 40 gallon tank in either realm honestly. Get your dads tank and do some research about their needs. If you get a substrate that buffs ph and just buffer replacement water(use the diy buffer recipe on this site) and your good for africans ph. I would rethink cichlids in a 40 g tank. i would just do some schooling freshwater tetra's. :fish:


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

nawww other people said its possible and so did lots of websites, even this website sayd you can have cichlids in a 10g nvm a 40g there is lots of options. Tetras are too small i like medium size cool fish not boring tetras.

but ill look up the buffer replacement, 
thanks


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

It is possilbe to keep Africans in a 40 gallon, but the appropriate species is a small list.

What are the dimensions of this tank? Were you looking at egg layers (such as West African Kribensis, or Tanganyikans), or some mouthbrooding Malawians?


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

umm i was thinking of malawi cichlids are they hard to have? are they hardy? I have read i can keep maybe some red zebra, yellow labs and i unno what else?

if i do central americans im getting a firemouth, convict and salvini all female and some blue gourami. Someone in the Central american forum said that those would be fine in my 40g


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

As asked in my previous post, what are the dimensions of this tank?


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

i think its 3ft by 1ft by 17"


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Pass on the red zebras, tank is too small.

Perhaps some Yellow Labidochromis and 12 Ps. demasoni, or 1 male 3 female Cyno. hara white top.

Or a group of 12 Ps. saulosi on their own.


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

what are ps saulosi? im new i dont know what the origional names are, whats its common name?

thanks a lot for your help!
WE DONT LIVE TO FAR FROM EACH OTHER!
do you ever go to big als fish store?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Pseudotropheus saulosi

Yes, I do go to Big Al's on Centennial Parkway.


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

so your saying i can have 12 Pseudotropheus saulosi and some yellow labs? or i can have 1 male 3 female hara white top?

ca i have like

3 labs
6 Pseudotropheus saulosi 
2 hara white tops?

thanks


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

No, that isn't what I am saying..

12 Pseudotropheus saulosi... that's it..

OR

4 labs
4 hara white tops

Three species will be too much for a tank that size.


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

ok... but i don't understand, thats less fish, y cant i have like 3 of each species? its liss then having 12 of 1 type?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

As I stated, three species will be too much for a tank that size. Each male will want a territory, there isn't the room in your tank.


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

even if i got females?

thanks for all the help btw


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

like because if i got all females the territorial issue would be different if i had 3 species.
i know what your saying and i know its a small tank and not a lot i can do but i think 2 species is boring?

what do you think would be better for me? female firemouth, female convict, female salvini with 4 blue gourami (got from CA cichlid forum)

or some africans which i unno what species i would put in? seeing that africans are a lot smaller shouldnt i be able to get away with more fish/species.

i love the yellow labs and the white top hara, but can i add anything else (that i can find at big als in mississauga?)


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

You could add in 4-5 Tiger Barbs.


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## fancy diver (Mar 21, 2009)

If you have a good store near you maybe you should go w/ small tanganikans for the 40 g. shell dwellers are cool and im sure one of the moderators could recommend a good mix. I just posted a tank size advice post in the malawi species section, check it out, remember it's just my opinion. 
Definately over filter the tank before throwing big groups of mbuna's in your 40g if thats what your gonna do. I think you'd do better w/ a 75g for these fish.


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

yea i got a marineland 350 filter the other day, its ment for a 70 gal and im putting it in a 40 gal i also got a 150w heater? is that ok?

ill check it out man thanks,

fogelhund, i unno but i dont exactly like tiger barbs? just sumthin about them i don't like?
anything else?
i think id be better off with african cichlids cause they dont get as big so i can have more of them, ill add some lime stone or some kind of rock as a buffer for the PH


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Get more of the one or two species you choose to keep perhaps..........


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

i can do that... but thats kinda boring is it not? inless i can breed one? but i would rather at least have 3 species..... why casn i have 3 species of CA cichlids but not 3 of the africans if i got all female?

you know a lot about fish eh? lol when i go to big als next im going to ask so many questions!

they are really hepful there!
thanks


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

You can get three species of CA cichlids, as you won't have breeding. With CA cichlids, you'll have three fish. Two species of Malawians, you'll have 12 fish............

Good luck getting all females with the Malawians... won't happen.


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

i seee, are they hard to sex???

will i have better luck with Tanganyika cichlids?


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## Stickzula (Sep 14, 2007)

have you checked the cookie cutter? http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/cookie_cutter_40g.php

If you are looking for more variety, you could try to do 2 species that are dimorphic (males and females look different) it would give you 4 different looking fish. Males are nicer looking than females, but since everything else is "boring" you could check into it.


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## Stickzula (Sep 14, 2007)

Astatotilapia latifasciata - 1m/2f
Metriaclima sp. "Msobo" - 1m/4f
Cynotilapia afra "Cobue" - 1m/3f

This mix COULD work with the right aquascaping, but it would be pushing it. It is absolutly critical that you get the m/f ratios right or there WILL be a bloodbath. My personal opinion is that with your experience level, you would be wise to either go with a "proven" cookie cutter stock list or get a bigger tank. I mean no offense by that statement. It's just that there is a lot that can go wrong and if you are not prepared to handle it, it will end in disaster.


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

I understand totally, are the species you listed hard to care for? i like your ideo of the male and female different colour thing....... would this species work if i set the tank up properly? i looked at the cookie cutter list in the library but are those popular fish.. can i find them at my LFS? plus which one to get they have 3 different combos?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

In my opinion, it would be the exception, not the generalization that the mix above would work. I have M. "msobo" in a 90 gallon, and the male beat the "other" females, everytime he breeds. Cyno. cobue aren't much better.

I would suggest going with the Ps. saulosi instead.


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

just the ps. saulosi? or with other stuff?

fungelhund list stuff i can find at big als? can i find ps. saulosi and yellow labs at big als? but im pissed cause i want 3 species so bad i think 2 species will get boring seeing the same 2 types of fish every day?

so your saying that stickzula's mix wont work?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

I haven't been to Big Al's in Mississauga in some time, so I have not idea what their current stock is. Chances are they won't have Ps. deep though.

Stickzula's mix could work, but chances are it won't.

If you want more species, get a more appropriate tank.


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

well they can order it for me cant they? one time i was there and i overheard some guy wanted a salt water octapus so they ordered one for him?

what about a few species of Tanganyika cichlids? in the cookie cutter for a 40 gal there is like 4 species and like 4 of each on some of them? can i do that?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

They might order them, you'll have to ask.

Without a great deal of experience, mixing multiple Tangs is not particularly easy. I don't think they have the colour that you are looking for either. The cookie cutter 40 gallon is 48" long.. completely different floor layout. The 29 gallon is where you would look.


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

but mine isn't a 29gal? so what should i just look for some options? in your opinion which do you think i will like better? tangs or malawi? i like the malawi better but i want more then 2 species? im selling some of my stuff so that i can get a bigger tank :thumb: but for now i have this tank? can i keep the ps. saulosi and yellow lab and like another small tang? how many males and females do i get of each btw? or do i just get a handful and see?

thanks :fish:


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

With most cichlids, and the ones you are talking about, the volume of the aquarium is immaterial to the fish, or the keeping of the fish. All that matters is the floor space.

Why not just get two species of fish while you have the small tank, and then get more when you have a larger aquarium? Mixing Tang substrate spawners and Malawian mouthbrooders is often problematic, particularly when the Tangs spawn.

The other option is to just get males of a few species.

A single Labidochromis caeruleus, Ps. acei, Ps. demasoni, OB Peacock, German Red Peacock, Neolamp. brichardi, Julidochromis marlieri, Cyno. afra white top would be an interesting mix of singles... but do get all males.


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

wow!!!! that would be so cool! thats a lot of fish bro! i can have all those as long as they r all males and i do a lot of decor?

so i can either do that mix of singles or i can get 4 yellow labs and 4 hara white top?

thanks! wow man you just changed my mood.... i started to fill the tank little by little yesterday because i fixed the leak and i want to make sure i dont fill it the whole way just for it to leak all over the floor.. by this weekend i will have the whole thing set up and decorated and leave it for the cycle..


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## Stickzula (Sep 14, 2007)

> Stickzula's mix could work, but chances are it won't.
> 
> If you want more species, get a more appropriate tank.


I completely agree :thumb: I picked msobo over saulosi because the barring on the male saulosi could cause conspecific agression with the afras. IME cobue aren't very agressive, but this may be where temperment of the individual fish comes into play. It is very likely that the OP will start out with juvies, which are fine in the smaller tank. He will end up not being happy with the 40g and get a bigger one within a year anyway.



> well they can order it for me cant they?


You can find almost any species you want from online retailers. Check out the CF sponsors. You could also try aquabid.

How about going with 3 yellow labs, 12 demasoni, and 3 synodontis petricola? There are a lot of people that have a lab/dem mix and are happy with it.

I am not sure how looking at the same 3 species would be less boring than looking at the same 2 species every day. You need to pick fish that you like and enjoy looking at. If you get fish that you like, they won't get boring.


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

thanks for the advice, i will pick fish i will love to watch, now i see i have 3 options, 4 tellow labs and 4 white hara, Labidochromis caeruleus, Ps. acei, Ps. demasoni, OB Peacock, German Red Peacock, Neolamp. brichardi, Julidochromis marlieri, Cyno. afra white or 3 yellow labs, 12 demasoni, and 3 synodontis petricola

thanks a lot for the help i will cnsider al, which ever i like the most i will pick! i wilol let u know soon hopefully by today because im going to set up the decor for the tank and i wanna know what im putting in it so that i can set up the tank for them specifically.

is there anything i can get to test the ph lvl btw?

thanks!!


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

what type of sand should i use guys?

should i have lots of rocks? what type of rocks? like a type of rock i can use as a buffer?
can i use fake plants?

as for the fish i think i will tale a little from each offer.. like a single tank like fogelhund said but ill use a yellow lab like Stickzula suggested with a demasoni and then the rest of the ones that fogelhund listed: Ps. acei, OB Peacock, German Red Peacock, Neolamp. brichardi, Julidochromis marlieri, and a afra white top!

what do i put in the tank first? you guys know any algea eater or bottom feed i can put in? something to clean like the poop and left over food and something else for the algea?

thanks


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Your ph in Mississauga should be fine without buffer. Mine was 7.8-8.0 out of the tap when I lived there. I use Quikcrete All Purpose sand from Home Depot... you need to rinse it until the water in the bucket is clear. It is about $5 for a 66lb bag (more than enough)

Rocks is up to you, I always like more.

Fish don't clean up poop, filters do. You could add some Synodontis (multipunctatus or petricola) catfish for left over food, and a good razor blade to clean algae off the glass.


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

so i dont need a dwarf pleco or simese algea eater? i always had them and they worked? but i will forsure get a synodontis for the tank....

should i add the synodontis in first with a dwarf pleco or britle nose catfish first? then after a few days add like 2 cichlids and continue the process? because i have experienced adding too many fish at once and the ammonia kills all the fish!


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

You can do a fishless cycle, instead of subjecting the fish to it.

What is a dwarf pleco or bristlenose going to eat in a new tank? I don't add them, but you can if you want. I'd wait several months until there was actually algae though, instead of training it to eat the prepared food.


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

ok so once my tank has been running for awhile i can start adding the cichlids in slowly? and then eventully add the other catfish?

umm what food should i feed the cichlids? like the food i should give 2 times a day, then list like a treat i can give them?

also can i every once in awhile feed them live food?


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## RyanR (Apr 29, 2008)

What are the pH and hardness of your tap water?

-Ryan


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

RyanR said:


> What are the pH and hardness of your tap water?
> 
> -Ryan


Mississuaga tap water is around 7.8 to 8.0 typically, as mentioned above.


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

fogelhund as asked before what do i feed them? also list a treat i can give like frozen or dry bloodworms or shrimp? also can i give them live food every once an awhile?


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

also can i add a pair in there at all? like they all have to be male or can i have a pair of sumthing? *** just never experienced fish giving birth and raising the fry and i think it would be really cool! but i probably can't right? not with all the other fish in there?

thanks


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

Just fill the entire aquarium with multies. Not a lot of colour but you're bound to have a more interesting experience with them. But if you want to mix fish they don't all have to be cichlids.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

calleja_aquariums said:


> also can i add a pair in there at all? like they all have to be male or can i have a pair of sumthing? I've just never experienced fish giving birth and raising the fry and i think it would be really cool! but i probably can't right? not with all the other fish in there?
> 
> thanks


A single pair of substrate spawners in with other fish would just cause extreme conflict, as the pair would try and defend their fry, and the others would all try and eat them. Depending on the species, either you would end up with a bunch of fish dead or in the corner, or extremely unhappy and possibly beaten up parents.

A "pair" of mouthbrooders (they aren't pairing fish) do not provide parental care once the fry are released by the mother, and in most cases the fry will just get eaten unless removed from the tank/mother.


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

ooo ok so its a bad idea.

ill just breed something in my 20g community tank....

should i just ask someone at big als what to feed the cichlids im getting? or is there some food u recommend? can i feed them dry shrimp and bloodworms as a treat? and sometimes live food?


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## calleja_aquariums (Apr 22, 2009)

I also have a question about the tanks cycling? what can i get to test out the nitrites and nitrates? and what can i buy to get the process to go quicker? i read the fishless cycle and that it will be faster then a normal cycle with fish? or should i get like 1 black skirt tetra to speed it up?


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