# Dr Tims One and Only Nitrifying bacteria!



## John27

Hello everyone!

Last night I added 8 ounces of Dr Tims One and Only Nitrifying bacteria to my 75 gallon tank, it had brand spanking new filters that were running for 2 days, but in the interest of getting unbiased results I washed everything thoroughly in tap water. Today, about 20 hours after adding one and only to a tank with 3 ppm ammonia, I have ammonia at about 1 ppm, and Nitrates at about 5ppm, no nitrites whatsoever.

I was EXTREMELY impressed, these results tell me that, indeed, one could add Dr Tims and fish at the same time to a brand new tank and not worry at all about cycling the tank, as this gave me results identical to installing an established filter on the tank.

So once again, the verdict? Plain and simple it works, no ifs ands or butts it was instantly cycled, the presence of nitrates without the presence of nitrites proves that, since the bottle contains all of the "correct" bacteria there is no need for the "cycle" to be complete, ammonia is converted into nitrates very quickly.

There has been a lot of discussions regarding cycling tanks quickly, while it is more economical to set up a tank and cycle it for a month or so, this is just extremely convenient, not to mention absolutely safe as there is no risk of a mini-cycle after adding fish. And there is a TON of bacteria in that bottle! My water was so cloudy you couldn't see the background for a solid hour!

-John


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## cjacob316

where did you get it? was it shipped to you? what shipping did you use?


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## John27

cjacob316 said:


> where did you get it? was it shipped to you? what shipping did you use?


It was shipped from Dr Tims, FedEX next day.

-John


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## kmuda

:thumb:


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## John27

I should also mention that per Dr Tims recommendation on one of his articles on this forum, I added the entire contents of the bottle, all at once, in my opinion that SHOULD be the way it works, if other products must be added bit by bit, and won't work if added all at once, then they aren't the right bacteria and the manufacturer is relying on the colonization of the natural air-born bacteria that we can establish without adding anything but ammonia!

-John


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## cjacob316

i agree

I was wondering if ordering from foster and smith works out, i know they suggest at least 2 day shipping when weather is either too warm or cold, i feel like they'd be a trustworthy source for dr tims and safestart


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## John27

cjacob316,

If you ask me, I'd just order it from Dr Tims, I haven't compared prices but you reduce the shipping time if you order it direct, instead of Dr Tim - > Truck - > Foster/Smith - > FedEX - > You it's just Dr Tim - > FedEX - > You


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## kmuda

I cannot argue with John's logic, but I would feel perfectly comfortable ordering from Drs. Foster and Smith. At least we know it was properly shipped from Dr. Tim's to Drs. Foster and Smith and it is properly stored at Drs. Foster and Smith. The only question is how it is shipped from Drs. Foster and Smith. Standard shipping, I always get it within 3-4 days. I would likely request second day if I was ordering One and Only.

It would be interesting to know how Drs. Foster and Smith pack it. Do they take the extra care or just drop it in a box. I don't know. But you do know if you order direct from Dr. Tim's, it is specially packaged for the weather.


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## John27

Kmuda,

I second that, I honestly do not believe having it next day was necessary, it was well packaged. I have nothing against Drs Foster and Smith as I have always had great luck with them, but why add a middle man?


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## kmuda

John27 said:


> Kmuda,
> 
> I second that, I honestly do not believe having it next day was necessary, it was well packaged. I have nothing against Drs Foster and Smith as I have always had great luck with them, but why add a middle man?


If you're like me, I'm generally placing an order (already) with Drs. Foster and Smith. I generally place an order with them (or sometimes Big Al's, depending on my needs) about once per month. It just makes things easier if you are already ordering.


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## John27

kmuda said:


> John27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kmuda,
> 
> I second that, I honestly do not believe having it next day was necessary, it was well packaged. I have nothing against Drs Foster and Smith as I have always had great luck with them, but why add a middle man?
> 
> 
> 
> If you're like me, I'm generally placing an order (already) with Drs. Foster and Smith. I generally place and order with them (or sometimes Big Al's, depending on my needs) about once per month. It just makes things easier if you are already ordering.
Click to expand...

Good point, okay yeah I see that, I am blessed with good LFS's so I can get most stuff local, so I don't order too often from them, unless they have a particularly good deal going.

-John


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## John27

John27 said:


> I should also mention that per Dr Tims recommendation on one of his articles on this forum, I added the entire contents of the bottle, all at once, in my opinion that SHOULD be the way it works, if other products must be added bit by bit, and won't work if added all at once, then they aren't the right bacteria and the manufacturer is relying on the colonization of the natural air-born bacteria that we can establish without adding anything but ammonia!
> 
> -John


Dr Tim corrected me, my apologies it is in fact _water_ borne bacteria, not airborne.

-John


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## kmuda

As much as I've researched the subject, I've never been able to find a conclusive article that discusses how these bacteria arrive in a tank to begin with.

Although I am no way in a position to argue with Dr. Tim... whatever he says would absolutely trump whatever I think on the subject, but I once did find an tech review article discussing the accidental (and chronic) contamination of bacteria cultures by nitrifying bacteria. Their conclusion was the bacteria had to be airborne (would have to be via moisture in the air as we know that the bacteria in our tanks cannot survive being dried out).

I'll look, but I'll probably never find it again. http://scholar.google.com is a great tool, but you only find things like this when you are looking for something else. :lol:

I guess one way to find out (absent the necessary technical equipment) is to fill a 10 gallon with distilled water (freshly boiled, just to be sure) and then dose with ammonia and see what happens.


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## cjacob316

so does that mean summer time is the best time to cycle? or even louisiana is the best state to do it haha


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## DrTim's

Hey Kmuda:

Below is a reference to a paper and author to start your search with. Note the year is 2002 (many years after I published my work showing _Nitrospira_ and novel ammonia-oxidizing bacteria were responsible for nitrification in aquaria) and what do they find in drinking water systems? Novel AOBs and _Nitrospira_ (_Nitrobacter_ was in some samples). This does not mean nitrifying bacteria could not be in the air but they are definitely in your drinking water and the bacteria groups I found are not some 'freaks' as some in the industry suggested they were but major players in certain systems - aquaria being one of those systems.

********************************

APPLIED AND ENVIRONMENTAL MICROBIOLOGY, 2002, 
Volume 68 (1) p. 73Ã¢â‚¬â€œ81.

*Ammonia- and Nitrite-Oxidizing Bacterial Communities in a
Pilot-Scale Chloraminated Drinking Water Distribution System*
John M. Regan, Gregory W. Harrington, and Daniel R. Noguera*
Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, University of WisconsinÃ¢â‚¬â€


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## John27

Interesting read Dr Tim, so what I gather from it is any presence of _Nitrospira_ in the air is simply vapor from evaporated water therefore it is counter intuitive to assume the cycle comes from the air, since the original source is the very water your using in the tank?

-John


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## DrTim's

Anywhere you have an aquarium and airstones and water splashing you will get bacteria, including nitrifiers, in the air. But the source is the water but we are talking about aquariums.

Nitrifying bacteria so not have to live in water - in they have access to ammonia or nitrite they will grow on rocks, in soil, on plant roots, in pipes - anywhere.


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## hollyfish2000

I have used Dr. Tim's numerous times -- purchasing it from my LFS. I have been very pleased with it. I believe only once did it not work and I assumed it was probably mishandled. I wish more folks would use it. Many insist on doing fishless cycling etc. and dismiss this option, which is a shame. When I use it to start a tank, I do use the whole bottle and follow up two days later with a second bottle (because I'm obsessive) and I do not fully stock a tank initially either.

I always keep a bottle on hand for emergencies as well. I wish I'd done that before I lost an entire tank of male peacocks to a sudden and unexplained bacteria die-off . . .


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## John27

hollyfish2000 said:


> I have used Dr. Tim's numerous times -- purchasing it from my LFS. I have been very pleased with it. I believe only once did it not work and I assumed it was probably mishandled. I wish more folks would use it. Many insist on doing fishless cycling etc. and dismiss this option, which is a shame. When I use it to start a tank, I do use the whole bottle and follow up two days later with a second bottle (because I'm obsessive) and I do not fully stock a tank initially either.
> 
> I always keep a bottle on hand for emergencies as well. I wish I'd done that before I lost an entire tank of male peacocks to a sudden and unexplained bacteria die-off . . .


Holly,

Understand that if you "understock" then some of the bacteria will die off, no problem, as long as you make sure only to stock a little at a time after that (don't stock 10 fish one week and 10 the next, stock maybe 10 one week and 3-5 in two weeks of the same size, OR do it all at once!)

Also, Dr Tims product would be an excellent booster to fishless cycling! I added enough to cycle my tank, but if I added half as much, I wouldn't be instantly ready for fish, BUT I would be ready MUCH quicker than if I just relied on repopulating what was already in my water.

Also, good idea keeping some on hand Holly, I have experiened a mini-cycle about a year after setting up one particular tank, oh boy I wish I would have known about this stuff then, I lost a lot of very dear fish.

-John


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## John27

Quick update! Ammonia 0 Nitrates around 20, added a capful of ammonia, still no nitrites so, just means it's done. I won't be updating anymore as there is nothing else to learn here, I will just keep adding ammonia which will cause my nitrates to rise, and when I get my fish I will do a big water change and stock, voila!


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## FbodyFan

I ordered 8oz of one and only last Thurs and it arrived on Tues. My fiance said it was about room temp when she opened it (not bad considering the heat in the NE). I'm sure it will be fine when i use it. I just got the sand and water in the 125 G tank last night. Filters will be up and running tonight. Than its dr tims and fish time.

I'll report how it goes. :thumb:


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## FbodyFan

Ok. I added the Dr. Tims last night (8oz to a 125 G tank) around 8:30pm and added the fish around 9:00 pm (1 JD, 1 convict, 2 managuense, 2 blood parrots, 2 tiger oscars). Just checked the water about 20 minutes ago (8:20 am)...

ammonia-0
nitrites-0
nitrates-0

I was expecting to see maybe a lil ammonia and the presence of nitrates, so I'm a lil confused where I stand in the cycling process. :-?


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## kmuda

I'm not surprised you have not seen any nitrates yet but I would be concerned if nothing shows up by tomorrow. At least you are not seeing ammonia, which is a good sign, but... again, it's only been 12 hours.


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## John27

If you have an API Nitrate test kit, shake the bottles vigorously before you test, if I just drop it in my nitrates will read 0 as well, if I shake the bottle up really good, different story.

The others (ammonia/pH/Nitrite) don't seem to have the same problem though, in my experience.

Also, Dr Tims doesn't "cycle" the tank, it IS the cycle, I guess that's a bad way of putting it but when we refer to "cycling" the tank we are basically talking about growing and multiplying the nitrifying bacteria, with Dr Tims all of the necessary bacteria is included so basically there is no "cycle", in fact that's exactly how it's advertised on the bottle "Eliminated New Tank Syndrome" (Another term for the cycle). That said, I wouldn't expect you to ever get an ammonia or nitrite reading.

-John


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## FbodyFan

Yea, I thought it might be a bit soon to see nitrates but since the ammonia was 0, I assumed there would be some nitrates present (since there are fish in the tank and it appears its being taken care of by the bacteria)

I do have the API kit. It says to shake bottle 2 but not bottle 1. Are you shaking both of them?

Also on a side note, it looks like the oscars are taking a beating. Im thinking maybe they are too small and getting picked on (all fish intoduced to new tank at same time). I just added some one and only to a 36 gallon and Im going to move them there til they get bigger.


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## John27

Fbody, I shake both but I bet just the second will do. But I mean you have to SHAKE it, like, beat the living daylights out of it, not all the time but if it's sat for a week or so you really need to give it a good shaking to get a reading.

-John


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## FbodyFan

I'll be checking my water tonight after work. Hopefully I see some nitrates.

On a side note: Is there any waiting period with Dr. Tims before I can do a water change? I have 1 dead spot in my tank and the red poo looks terrible on top of white sand :lol:


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## John27

Fbody,

I think I recall something saying 24 hours but I personally would wait a week, just to err on the side of caution, but most likely after 12-24 hours the bacteria is out of the water column and attached to the filters/substrate/etc.

-John


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## Rick_Lindsey

Do you have a turkey baster? Surely it can't hurt to spot-clean the dead spot.

-Rick (the armchair aquarist)


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## FbodyFan

Rick_Lindsey said:


> Do you have a turkey baster? Surely it can't hurt to spot-clean the dead spot.
> 
> -Rick (the armchair aquarist)


I do not but thats not a bad idea. :thumb:

My only other idea was to move the AC 110 closer to the edge of the tank so the inlet hangs over this spot and hope theres enough pull to suck it up once it lands in this dead spot.


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## FbodyFan

tested again this evening. Still zeros across the board. Since there is no ammonia, I have to assume the bacteria is doing its job. Which means either I can't use/read my api nitrate test correctly or maybe there just arent enough to show up yet.

I also checked my 36 gallon I moved the 2 baby tigers to in the mean time. No nitrates but there were some nitrites. Atleast i know that the nitrite test works and the cycle is in progress.


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## John27

Fbody,

I would take your water to your LFS to get tested, just to make sure your test kit hasn't gone bad (it happens). I would expect they will find some nitrates, just seems unlikely to have a flat zero on the nitrates unless your fish have eaten every bite of their food and have been "holding it in" if you know what I mean, since you have Cichlids, neither is likely. Making a mess is what they do best.

-John


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## FbodyFan

I think I'll try that. And yea, there is a LOT of poop on the sand. :lol:


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## FbodyFan

As of last night, I'm still getting zeros across the board on my 125g. What I do know is that my test kit does work because my 36g tested positive for ammonia, nitrites AND nitrates last night.

I'm at a loss how I have nothing showing up in my 125g.


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## John27

The only thing I can think of is denitrifaction happening somewhere, I still suspect that in time, your nitrates will appear. I am certain though that with that bio load, if it wasn't working you would have ammonia.

-John


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## KARMAL

Fbodyfan-

No nitrates means the tank is not cycled. No ammonia indicates it has not risen high enough to register on the test yet. 125 gallons is a pretty big tank, if your nitrate test kit is not faulty, your ammonia should start showing soon. 
If the tank were instantly cycled, you would have nitrates present. It's been my experience that even with Dr. Tims you should still see the ammonia and nitrite spike, they both just come and go a lot faster.


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## John27

KARMAL said:


> Fbodyfan-
> 
> No nitrates means the tank is not cycled. No ammonia indicates it has not risen high enough to register on the test yet. 125 gallons is a pretty big tank, if your nitrate test kit is not faulty, your ammonia should start showing soon.
> If the tank were instantly cycled, you would have nitrates present. It's been my experience that even with Dr. Tims you should still see the ammonia and nitrite spike, they both just come and go a lot faster.


Karmal how much did you add? I added 8 ounces to my 75 and never got ammonia or nitrites, just nitrates on day one. (ammonia for about 6 hours, never nitrites, now ammonia goes away in about 30 minutes, adding ammonium chloride btw)


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## Ravynn

Speaking of this bottled bacteria , alot of people have been saying you would waste your money.
By this story , and other reviews and stories I've heard , only 1/10 chances it won't work.

I heard Tetra; SafeStart is a good brand. Anyone have luck with it?
I can't ship things to my house because shipping from US-Canada isn't a pretty price.


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## Rick_Lindsey

Ravynn said:


> Speaking of this bottled bacteria , alot of people have been saying you would waste your money.
> By this story , and other reviews and stories I've heard , only 1/10 chances it won't work.


There are definately some products out there that appear to be iffy at best. There are three products that appear to have a better reputation though...

BioSpira (which is no longer, and reportedly worked like a charm as long as it was kept refrigerated and wasn't past-due),

Tetra SafeStart (which i think is what BioSpira morphed into... but they apparently have a shelf-stable version... I have a small bottle of this to try once my ammonia arrives)

Dr. Tim's One and Only (also shelf stable, and they put a date stamp on it).

I believe Dr. Tim is the developer of all these products. I purchased SafeStart from my LFS because it's what they had, but between the fact that Dr. Tim puts a date stamp on his product, and that he gives excellent customer service (even pre-customer service... he's helped me out and I didn't even buy his product!), I'd lean towards buying his stuff if I had a choice.

Keep in mind that all of these products contain live bacteria, and said bacteria can be killed by improper shipping, storage, or sitting on a shelf too long.



> I heard Tetra; SafeStart is a good brand. Anyone have luck with it?
> I can't ship things to my house because shipping from US-Canada isn't a pretty price.


I'll let you know how it works for me . I'm waiting for my ammonia to arrive, then I get to drain and refill my tank, redose it with the right ammonia, and then I'll dump in the safestart.

-Rick (the armchair aquarist)


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## KARMAL

John27 said:


> Karmal how much did you add? I added 8 ounces to my 75 and never got ammonia or nitrites, just nitrates on day one. (ammonia for about 6 hours, never nitrites, now ammonia goes away in about 30 minutes, adding ammonium chloride btw)


That's pretty impressive for a new tank. 
Both times I used 4oz. of Dr. Tim's for my 29 gallon tank. Both times I saw spikes before the tank was cycled. I get the bacteria about as fresh as you can get it too, since I am driving distance from where it is shipped from. It arrived both times the next day in a temperature controlled box. 
I have also tried Tetra SafeStart once, but did not find it to be effective.

*A note to anyone thinking about purchasing Dr. Tim's- they bottle it on Monday, so an order on Sunday or Monday will ensure you will get the bacteria as fresh as possible.


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## John27

Ravynn said:


> Speaking of this bottled bacteria , alot of people have been saying you would waste your money.
> By this story , and other reviews and stories I've heard , only 1/10 chances it won't work.
> 
> I heard Tetra; SafeStart is a good brand. Anyone have luck with it?
> I can't ship things to my house because shipping from US-Canada isn't a pretty price.


What's your basis for 10% success? And what are you calling success? lol.

Also, yes, Dr Tim produced all of those products, so if you trust Safe Start you ought to trust Dr Tims.

-John


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## Ravynn

I never meant specifically the 10% chance it wouldn't work at Dr. Tims.
I just meant the bottled bacteria itself.

Just , nevermind. ~


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## lcosme

Did Dr. Tim buy out Biospira? 
*** been missing for the past year or so.. just wondering?


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## kmuda

Dr. Tim invented BioSpira. He was the former "Chief Science Officer" at Marineland Labs where BioSpira was created.

He now has his own company. Dr. Tim's Aquatics. Marineland Labs no longer exists, at least not outside of Dr. Tim's Aquatics. Marineland was purchased by United Pet Group, which also owns Tetra, and the two companies are becomingly increasingly one.


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## FbodyFan

UPDATE: My 125 is still not cycled. Not only that, but I went out and bought another 8oz of Dr Tims from the local pet store. So thats 8oz ordered from Dr tim, and 8 oz local. Both have failed. I have 0 nitrites, 0 nitrates, and now amonia is starting to show up. Amonia started showing up about a week after I first tried the DR Tims (ordered from him), at which point I decided to go pick some up local to try again. That was Fri night, as of yest afternoon, still no nitrites or nitrates, and a slight amount of amonia.

When I bought my 1st 8oz batch for the 125, I also bought 2oz for my 36. So 2 weeks later, my amonia is finally going down in that (36 gallon) but my nitrites and nitrates are off the charts. Seems more like my tank is going through its cycle, than being "instantly cycled".

So to me, I basically threw away ~$150 on Dr. Tims. :roll:


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## John27

FbodyFan said:


> UPDATE: My 125 is still not cycled. Not only that, but I went out and bought another 8oz of Dr Tims from the local pet store. So thats 8oz ordered from Dr tim, and 8 oz local. Both have failed. I have 0 nitrites, 0 nitrates, and now amonia is starting to show up. Amonia started showing up about a week after I first tried the DR Tims (ordered from him), at which point I decided to go pick some up local to try again. That was Fri night, as of yest afternoon, still no nitrites or nitrates, and a slight amount of amonia.
> 
> When I bought my 1st 8oz batch for the 125, I also bought 2oz for my 36. So 2 weeks later, my amonia is finally going down in that (36 gallon) but my nitrites and nitrates are off the charts. Seems more like my tank is going through its cycle, than being "instantly cycled".
> 
> So to me, I basically threw away ~$150 on Dr. Tims. :roll:


Man I'm really sorry to hear that, good luck with everything.

I actually had an aquarium leak, I bought a new aquarium while maintaining the filters on a 10 gallon rubbermaid container, I still have no ammonia. I am getting some nitrites though, hovering around 1~2 ppm, still not stocked. I'm still adding ammonium chloride hoping the nitrites will go down but before the aquarium leaked I had no ammonia, and Nitrates climing quickly. Right now my nitrates are still shooting up but I'm also getting this annoying little bit of nitrite, it NEVER exceeds 2 ppm and usually hovers around 1ppm, I did a 100% water change and after an hour it was at 1ppm again, and has stayed that way for about 36 hours now. :?


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## DrTim's

Dear FbodyFan:

I am trying to understand what is happening. Below I have tried to reconstruct the tank water quality history which I have as -

July 25 - add One & Only and fish
July 26 Ã¢â‚¬â€œ zeros across the board. 36 gallon some nitrite, no nitrate
July 27 Ã¢â‚¬â€œ zeros across the board. 36 gallon ammonia, nitrite, nitrate present
Aug 2 Ã¢â‚¬â€œ report that some ammonia yesterday Sun, Aug 1, no nitrite no nitrate

I also couldn't find an order with both an 8 and 2 bottle on the order but that's ok. Let's solve you're situation, we'll get this to work. Right now I would like to get more information on the tank set-up and anything else you have been doing.

At this point, in the 125 it seems you have a slight amount of ammonia and no nitrite and no nitrate - correct? I assume you have been feeding everyday, correct?

If you could answer these questions, it would help.

Are you using any type of water conditioner? If so, which one?
Have you changed water? If so, how much?
What is your filter? And what substrate is for the bacteria?
You have a sand bottom - are you carefully siphoning the feces out or basically siphoning the surface of the sand?
What is the pH of your water?

Thanks

DrTim


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## DrTim's

John27:

Did you move you filter from the tank to the rubbermaid tub? More than likely the majority of your bacteria are in the tank and they didn't have enough time to completely colonize the filter and when you moved the filter to the tub there were not sufficient number of nitrite-oxidizer in the filter because there are so many in the tank there was no need for them to grow in the filter - does that make sense?

Because the bacteria are grown on a small particle that sink to the substrate and as you saw work quickly. The only way for them to get into the filter is for the particles to get suck into the filter which, of course, will happen to small extent. But these bacteria do not like to be single cells 'swimming' in the water. So adding more and more ammonia only makes the colonies on the particle bigger and bigger. Over time some will get to the filter but early on the vast majority are on the particles. This is way you do not want to siphon clean the substrate for a month or so because the bacteria need time to grow and attach to the substrate and not get sucked out when you clean.

DrTim


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## Rick_Lindsey

Wish me luck! My Dr. Tim ammonium chloride arrived the other day... so this evening I emptied my tank and filled it back up again, added the dechlor and dosed the recommended ammonia dose (1 drop per gallon). I waited a bit and did an ammonia test... it was supposed to be 2ppm, but was more like 0.5ppm. So I dosed it again, and waited a couple hours and tested again. Now it was 1ish ppm. So I just dosed once more (29 drops each time into my 29 gallon aquarium) and dumped my little 50ml bottle of Tetra Safestart into the back of penguin filter (I figure why not dump it in the filter rather than the tank). I'll try to get a reading in the morning, but will definately take one tomorrow night. This bottle was only recommended for a 15gallon tank, so I expect it to take a few days to build up to the level I want.

-Rick (The armchair aquarist)


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## DrTim's

Is it ok if I wish you a little luck but not too much!

Just wondering if you think there might have been any nitrifiers in the system already since the tnak was set-up but you did not have fish or any ammonia source so probably it any present would be a low level.


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## FbodyFan

Ok let me see what info I can provide from work off the top of my head.

1st I ordered only 8oz from you(I called u after to apply the forum discount. I'm in NJ). The 2oz came from lfs. I feed every day. No water conditioner. Water has been changed maybe 3 times about 30% or so each time. My filters are an AC 110 and an eheim 2217. When I syphon I try to get buried poop but its easier said than done with these fish constantly digging and my AC 110 powerhead moving it around. I've even tried netting it and using a turkey baster to keep up with poop removal. Ph I would say is the mid to high 7's low 8's.

I hope I didn't forget anything as I'm doing this from work on my blackberry. :lol:


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## Rick_Lindsey

DrTim's said:


> Is it ok if I wish you a little luck but not too much!


It certainly is . If you can talk my LFS into stocking Dr Tim's I'll go buy one of those and dump it in too as insurance .



> Just wondering if you think there might have been any nitrifiers in the system already since the tnak was set-up but you did not have fish or any ammonia source so probably it any present would be a low level.


Actually, it's possible. The tank has been set up for over three weeks running on Wal-Mart brand ammonia (with surfactants). The last time I did a nitrite test (at about 3 weeks) there wasn't even a hint of nitrite. I'm trying to remember whether I plugged in the filter before or after I added the stress-coat, I suspect it was before though. I dunno how quickly chlorinated water does it's job though. Given all the reports of people washing their sponge filters in tapwater, i gotta wonder .

This morning there didn't appear to be any movement on the ammonia front (It's still at least 1ppm, but I have a hard time reading these API tests so I couldn't say exactly where it is). I think there may be a trace of nitrite, though (less than 0.25, but there was a ever so faint violet hint, whereas last time I checked a week or two ago there was nothing but blue).

-Rick (the armchair aquarist)


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## John27

FbodyFan said:


> Ok let me see what info I can provide from work off the top of my head.
> 
> 1st I ordered only 8oz from you(I called u after to apply the forum discount. I'm in NJ). The 2oz came from lfs. I feed every day. No water conditioner. Water has been changed maybe 3 times about 30% or so each time. My filters are an AC 110 and an eheim 2217. When I syphon I try to get buried poop but its easier said than done with these fish constantly digging and my AC 110 powerhead moving it around. I've even tried netting it and using a turkey baster to keep up with poop removal. Ph I would say is the mid to high 7's low 8's.
> 
> I hope I didn't forget anything as I'm doing this from work on my blackberry. :lol:


When you say no water conditioners, do you mean no dechlorinator as well? If your not dechlorinating, THAT is the issue. Even well water can be chlorinated, especially if it's a shared well. Additionally (Dr Tim correct me if I'm wrong) I believe some heavy metals can harm the bacteria.

Chlorine would kill the bacteria, but would 'die' in a period of a couple of hours, prompting new bacteria growth (hence the second 'cycle')


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## FbodyFan

I dont recall when I did what but one time I didnt use dechlorinator due to my fiance saying our water had little to no chlorine in it (her mom had the co come out to check it at her house since she has planted tanks) and dr tims site saying some dechlorinators would also kill the bacteria. The other time I did use some dechlorinator. I honestly dont recall when and in which tank it was

EDIT: in my previous post i said 30% water changes. Probably more like 20%. If it matters


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## FbodyFan

Man it just keeps getting worse. Just got a call from home and now it seems that ich might be infecting the tank. One jag has a bunch of spots, the little one has a few and one of the parrots has 3 spots as well.

"Its like a nightmare and it keeps getting worse." -the color of money


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## John27

FbodyFan said:


> I dont recall when I did what but one time I didnt use dechlorinator due to my fiance saying our water had little to no chlorine in it (her mom had the co come out to check it at her house since she has planted tanks) and dr tims site saying some dechlorinators would also kill the bacteria. The other time I did use some dechlorinator. I honestly dont recall when and in which tank it was
> 
> EDIT: in my previous post i said 30% water changes. Probably more like 20%. If it matters


Little chlorine = big problem, none not necessarily but if there is any it could have destroyed your young biological filter, a partial water change on an established tank might not be a problem but filling it up with chlorinated water then adding Dr Tims and fish, will you likely killed the bacteria with a "little Chlorine" in addition, (I'm hoping Dr Tim will jump in because I'm not sure) some heavy metals can kill it.

I use API Tap Water dechlorinator, and Dr Tims Aquacleanse, both are just fine for those purposes. A LOT of people use API because it is very heavily concentrated and is the most economical. API Stresscoat is another bio-safe option, as well as Prime. The others I'm not sure, you'd have to ask Dr Tim.

DrTim,

Well my main concern when I got home from work that day was the mess, so I hit the power strip and shut everything off, siphoned all of the water out and broke out the towels. Later that night, I put the filters on a Rubbermaid tub of dechlorinated water (Using aqua cleanse). Ammonia stayed for about 24 hours, but in three days time went down to about 12 hours per 3 ppm to convert to nitrates, I don't remember if I tested for nitrites. I put the gravel in a cooler, and 3 days later it went in the tank moist. THEN 3ppm ammonia went down in about an hour to two hours. Like I said, nitrates are rising, nitrites are STUCK at 2ppm, which is the weirdest thing. Dr Tim do you have any idea how long it might take for the nitrites to drop? Today was the day I intended on getting the fish, which obviously isn't going to happen. I'd hate to lose those fish OR make the guy hold them for me until I have a tank ready.

Thanks,

John

_By the way I just want to clarify, my issue was due to a tank leak, not Dr Tims product, my Nitrates hit just over 100 at the end of a week while adding ammonia, without a hint of nitrite, not until the tank leaked and therefore much of the bacteria [likely that which was in the substrate, I was unaware that the majority was there and not my filter] died so now it's really going through a "minicycle", my numbers certainly aren't off the charts. It really is something you would experience in an established tank with disrupted biological filtration._[/b]


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## FbodyFan

Just got off the phone with the water co. He says delivered to the house, "free chlorine" is between .5-1.0 ppm.


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## John27

Two red flags here:

One- I am by no means an expert but I BELIEVE .5 - 1ppm Chlorine is enough to do in a biological filter, ESPECIALLY if it's a freshly filled tank.

The other, "Free" Chlorine. "Free Chlorine" is defined as basically, not chloramine. Do you have tap water? Most water companies are concerned with water for human use, not aquaria. Chloramine has no taste nor smell therefore they don't care- if a customer has an undesirable taste or smell they want to get to the bottom of, free chlorine could be the answer. A lack of free chlorine but presence of chloramine is just as bad, if not worse.

I would highly highly recommend using API Tap Water dechlorinator, as it is economical and detoxifies both. Sometimes with chloramines, it is also necessary to mix the water in a bucket or trash can, and then pump it into the tank to allow the chlorine/ammonia bond to break.

I hate that you wasted money, but I believe the Chlorine/Chloramine is what did you in. (If you weren't aware, chloramine is chlorine that has bonded to ammonia)

Good luck!

-John


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## John27

Also- on my situation, I went 24 hours without adding ammonia and my nitrites hit 0 finally, added ammonia and it's at about 2~3ppm now a few hours later. Hopefully this means I'm on the tail end here.

-John


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## smellsfishy1

0.5-1.0 ppm free chlorine is nothing to worry about.
That amount of chlorine would dissipate before it could be measured in the water column.
Since that is the amount delivered to the house I would guess almost 0 chlorine would make it out the faucet.


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## John27

smellsfishy,

Do you think it could still contain chloramines? My understanding is free chlorine makes up total chlorine, but so does chloramine.

-John


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## FbodyFan

I'm not familiar with the difference between all these, but after the guy on the phone told me it contains 0.5-1.0 chlorine, I asked "is that chlorine or chloramine?". He said its "free chlorine".

Just another side note. I use a python to drain and fill my tanks.

I checked water levels agin this evening....

36G: 0 amonia, looks real high, maybe 5.0 nitrite, and ~40 nitrates. (did a 33% water change after)

125G: ~.25-.5 amonia, .25 nitrite (finally something! lol), and I would really say 0 nitrates but I swear it looks like something might be showing after staring at it long enough (prob just wishful thinking)


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## lcosme

I never used DR Tim's but used Bio-Spira for the instant start up of several WC Tropheus colonies. I'm glad the product is still around..


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## John27

lcosme said:


> I never used DR Tim's but used Bio-Spira for the instant start up of several WC Tropheus colonies. I'm glad the product is still around..


It's not, bio-spira has been discontinued. Dr Tims is a new product, though made by Bio Spiras creator.

Fbody,

Maybe you should have asked "do I have Chloramine" in other words, yes it's just free chlorine but that doesn't mean you DONT have chloramine, not saying you do but it would explain your atypical results.

Shake the bajeebers (lol, trying to find a word that's not censored) out of that nitrate test tube, you can tell if it's there or not. Good luck to you man.

-John


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## DrTim's

Ok - lots of posts here so I will try to catch up. Let's deal with the biggest potential problem and that's the free chlorine. Total Chlorine is the sum of the free chlorine and combined chlorine (chloramine and chlorine bound to other things). Free chlorine is the chlorine that kills bacteria. I don't completely agree with smellsfishy1 - if you get a delivery and have free chlorine between 0.5 and 1 and use that water in your tank soon you're adding free chlorine to the tank and that free chlorine will attack something - namely bacteria. That's why is in the water in the first place. So there is a good possibility the bacteria were 'set back' by chlorine. I can't say this is 100% correct but something set these bacteria back and if there is a simple explanation it's usually the correct one.

There are a few things that nitrifiers don't like - hydrogen sulfide, some heavy metals (zinc is a bad one but they can tolerate a fair amount of copper), freezing (not an issue here) and high nitrite. The last one sounds counter-intuitive but nitrite levels above 5 start to poison both the ammonia and nitrite bacteria and above 10 is bad indeed (note here - I am talking about aquarium nitrifying bacteria not sewage treatment nitrifiers).

However, the strange thing is that only now are you starting to see ammonia in the 125 gal but it has had fish in it for over a week so you would expect the ammonia to be sky high. This tells me that the bacteria are there and working. But the truth is I don't have a good explanation to explain the situation. I definitely think the chlorine played a role in this but I can prove it.

John27 - was there a fair amount of grunge in the gravel in the tank? The nitrite-oxidizing bacteria are temperamental little bugs. They can be working great and then something happens to the system and they slow down for a few days. Hard to say exactly what happened in your case and I can completely understand fixing the leak and mopping up the water first and worrying about the bacteria later.

As you seeing after a day or two things stabilize and the bacteria get back to work.


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## John27

Dr Tim,

Yeah the gravel was pretty grungy, as of right now nitrites go away within 24 hours. Hoping to get that to where nitrites go away as fast as the ammonia.

-John


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## DrTim's

I figured that you would have a bunch of grunge. It might be that you had heterotrophic bacteria breaking down the grunge into ammonia and that put a little extra burden on the nitrifiers and it took some time for them to catch-up.

The nitrite guy will catch-up it usually takes them only a day or two so I expect you'll be back to pre-leak performance by Friday


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## John27

Thanks Dr Tim,

Also thanks for the awesome product support. I got tires put on my car today about 30 minutes from my house and the guy flat out asked me why I drove so far for tires I could get anywhere. I told him, service. I am absolutely willing to take extra time out of my day and drive out somewhere for service, friendly staff, etc. I don't know that I have ever bought anything from anywhere for any purpose where the products creator got involved with it's userbase like this to ensure they had success with the product.

And yes as I suggested to fbody I added fish food during my fishless cycle to intentionally produce the heterotrophic bacteria, so I got that milky bloom BEFORE I added fish. Which I did, and has cleared up here recently. I always liked "getting that out of the way" when fishless cycling.

Fbody,

My advice stays the same, API Tap Water Dechlorinator, or Dr Tims Aquacleanse. Honestly, API Tap Water is the best in your case because you have no special needs (ammonia in the water, etc.). You just need the heavy metals and chlorine. Even if the Chlorine didn't kill it, Dr Tim said some metals can so unless you know for certain those are not present, that could have been the culprit.


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## FbodyFan

The amonia thing is what gets me as well. It makes sense that something must be taking care of the amonia as it was 0 for so long and now only at minimal levels. However, if there is bacteria taking care of the amonia, wouldn't i be seeing either nitrites or nitrates? I am now seeing nitrites (.25) as of last night but its closing in on 2 weeks now. I would think they would have been present sooner. Is it possible that I had just enough bacteria to keep the amonia in check, but not enough to produce enough nitrite to show up in testing til now?

Again, thanks for all the help. I really appreciate it and its nice to see someone stand behind their product and try to help the consumer. :thumb:


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## FbodyFan

Forgot to mention: Will the fact that I'm now treating ich with heat and salt affect any of this? I have my tank up to 88 and so far I've added ~1 tblspn/5 gallons


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## John27

Fbody,

Actually treating for ich is actually similar to speeding up the cycle, heat and extra aeration. I would also lower your water level to increase oxygen exchange. I don't think the salt would be a problem.

It's also possible that your filter media, especially if new, is taking care of trace amounts of nitrite and nitrate. Not extremely likely, but it's still a very odd situation, you should have ammonia off the chart right now, and no nitrites or nitrates in the 125 in all honesty. (If the bacteria didn't work that is).

-John


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## FbodyFan

It certainly is perplexing lol. Just thought of something else. My eheim 2217 came with media and it said to leave the carbon in for 2 weeks. I would think that would be eliminating any harmful metals in the water??? Possibly one more scenario to eliminate?

Also, just wanted to thank you John27. You've been helping me with this issue as well as DR. Tim and I forgot to thank you. :thumb:


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## smellsfishy1

In order to kill bacteria and other microbes free chlorine has to be maintained at a level of 1.0 ppm or higher.
That is also at cooler water temperatures...if the water temperature is warmer then the ppm of free chlorine must be higher.
Somewhere in the the area of 3 ppm or higher.

The amount in the OP's tap water was somewhere around 0.5 and 1.0 ppm from what I remember.
Then throw in the fact that we do partial water changes so the amount present in the tank is much less, say 1/3 to 1/2...whatever the water change amount was.
We can safely say that theoretically the amount in the tank would then be less than 0.5 ppm.

As for chloramine or chlorine, the person from the water company said free chlorine not chloramine.
I will take this as regular old predictable chlorine that will dissipate readily and easily.

I can speak from personal experience that I have done 75-90% water changes using tap water with 1.0 ppm free chlorine without dechlor.
Yet and still there was never any measurable amount of chlorine in the tank even when tested immediately after refill.
The fish never showed signs of stress or became ill.


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## DrTim's

John27 and Fbodyfan - thanks for the kind words. DrTim's may not be the biggest but we strive to provide the best customer service which is one reason I am on the forum. John27 I am not sure that metals had any role in this case - keep reading for my reply to smellsfishy1 as to the reason why. But you are correct that the treatment for Ick will help the nitrifiers because they do like the warm water and extra aeration. Fbodyfan I don't think the carbon had any role in what you are seeing.

The reason I say this (and to reply to smellsfishy1) is that the numbers for free chlorine that smellfishy1 gave for toxicity to bacteria do not match the data available for nitrifiers.

The effects of chlorine and monochloramines on nitrifying bacteria has been studied. Here is a reference:

Ammonia-Oxidizing Bacteria in a Chloraminated Distribution System: Seasonal Occurrence, Distribution, and Disinfection Resistance.
ROY L. WOLFE, NANCY I. LIEU, GEORGE IZAGUIRRE, AND EDWARD G. MEANS
Metropolitan Water District of Southern California, 700 Moreno Avenue, La Verne, California 91750
APPLIED AND ENVIRONMENTAL MICROBIOLOGY, Feb. 1990, p. 451-462 Vol. 56, No. 2

There is a lot of data in this paper but the paragraph that we are interested in is the one summarizing the results of their testing the effects of chlorine and monochloramines on ammonia-oxidizing bacteria. I put in bold the key result.



> Inactivation of AOB. The results of disinfection experiments with AOB isolated from Garvey Reservoir indicated that resistance to chloramines, but not to free chlorine, was greatly dependent on antecedent growth conditions. AOB grown in chlorine-neutralized tap water and exposed to 1.0 mg of monochloramine per liter (pH 8.2, 23Ã‚Â°C) were approximately 11 times more resistant (99% inactivation in 33 min) than AOB grown in MSW medium (99% inactivation in 3 min) (Fig. 7A and B). *Regardless of culture conditions, 99% of the cells were inactivated within 2 to 3 min of exposure to 1.0 mg of free chlorine per liter* (pH 8.2, 23Ã‚Â°C) (Fig. 7A and B).


So if 99% of the AOB are inactivated (killed) within 2 to 3 minutes of exposure to 1.0 mg/L of free chlorine I think it is reasonable to assume that a certain percentage will be killed when exposed to a concentration between 0.5 and 1.0 which is what the water delivered had. Yes, it was diluted and yes there was some organics in his tank but his tank is not a seasoned tank with lots of organics. So while I do agree that with some trial and error (called experience) you can add tapwater directly to a tank without harming the fish or the bacteria I think in this case a blast of water containing free chlorine got into the system and 'inactivated' a percentage of the nitrifying bacteria. The concentration of free chlorine does not have to be at 1.0 or certainly not at 3 ppm to have an effect on them.

cheers


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## smellsfishy1

What I am saying is that these bacteria/cells are not exposed to high levels of chlorine such as those in the study.
I understand the data and what you have provided as reference but aquariums are not subject to the same experimental settings.
The study controls and ensures that the nitrifiers are subject to an exact amount and time of chlorine exposure.

To comment on the data... what I found interesting was the AOB that were cultivated in the neutralized tap water were 11 times more resistent.
It took 33 minutes for 99% to die off.
What makes you think that chlorine will remain in the system that long?
Chorine gas dissipates much faster than this, in fact, I cannot get a measurable amount even after very large water changes.

The chemical behavior of chlorine is highly reactive and its bond is weak.
Therefore, much of the chlorine never actually enters the water column.
Even if it did enter the water column, many tank setups have powerheads, filters, etc. that would accelerate its rate of escape from the water.
What if a filter or filters contained activated carbon...it would also remove the chlorine if not exhausted.
If the amount of chlorine was high enough, could somehow stay in the aquarium/accummulate, and the bio-filter was still underdeveloped then I agree with you Dr. Tim.

I have filled an entire aquarium using tap water of 1ppm free chlorine and I still couldn't get a positive test for chlorine.
One test kit started at 0.2 ppm and the other 0.1 ppm.
Neither could detect any measurable amount.
In other words, the chlorine gassed off before I could even test for it.
If it were less than 0.1 ppm then safe to say a majority of nitrifiers would not be subject to inactivation.

What I really want to know is how is anyone able to keep chlorine around?
For me it is gone before I can even measure it. :-?


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## DrTim's

I really don't feel like arguing with you. You don't know what the free chlorine level was (and neither do I) so you can't say for certain that it did not effect the bacteria. I say the simplest explanation is free chlorine effected the bacteria. So I will let the reader decide. My point was that you said free chlorine had to be 1 ppm or more likely 3 ppm to harm the bacteria and you are clearly wrong.

Also you read the paragraph wrong. What is said was bacteria exposed to *monochloramine* were 11 times more resistant. But we are talking about free chlorine. Read the next line "regardless" of culture conditions 99% of the bacteria were inactivated within 2 to 3 minutes with a free chlorine value of 1 mg/L.

As I said, I am not going to argue - if you don't think the study have any applicability to aquaria that's fine. I put it out there and if you don't think it applies that's your right.

Good fishkeeping.


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## smellsfishy1

That's fine that you don't want to argue, I don't either...not sure when this became an argument.
I know for fact that there are more variables involved here and if you want to discount that to prove your point, be my guest.

Not saying the study doesn't hold weight, I found it especially helpful to discover how sensitive nitrifiers are compared to other bacteria.
I'm also not saying it doesn't apply to aquaria, just saying real life is messy and it doesn't always pan out as expected.

Thanks for providing the link and the case study Dr. Tim.
It provides some excellent data and analysis.
However, I still choose not to accept it as the holy grail on this topic, you are more than welcome to do so.
I study a lot of science including chemistry and biology so please don't take my skepticism as an insult.
I just know better than to accept one case study as the answer to a complex topic.
I do appreciate your time and I apologize for any misunderstandings through any of this text.

P.S. Your contributions to the website are greatly appreciated.
The time you spend on these boards is something that cannot be quantified.
Thanks again.


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## FbodyFan

Water levels from 6:30 PM est. PH for both tanks 7.8

36G: amonia=0, nitrites=5+ (maybe, its hard to read really deep purple), nitrates= ~20

125G: amonia=.25, nitrites=~2-5, nitrates=~5

My nitrites are still through the roof on the 36 but the nitrates are down from yesterday thanks to the water change last night.

Still maintaining trace amounts of amonia in the 125 but the nitrites have really increased (.25 to 2-5) and nitrates have started to show up (just barely registering but their there). This tank has been bumped up to 89 degrees and 1.5 cups of aquarium salt were added last night after a maybe 20% water change.

Side note: No visible signs of ich now (maybe 1 or 2 but its hard to tell) so that front is coming along nicely.


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## John27

FbodyFan said:


> Water levels from 6:30 PM est. PH for both tanks 7.8
> 
> 36G: amonia=0, nitrites=5+ (maybe, its hard to read really deep purple), nitrates= ~20
> 
> 125G: amonia=.25, nitrites=~2-5, nitrates=~5
> 
> My nitrites are still through the roof on the 36 but the nitrates are down from yesterday thanks to the water change last night.
> 
> Still maintaining trace amounts of amonia in the 125 but the nitrites have really increased (.25 to 2-5) and nitrates have started to show up (just barely registering but their there). This tank has been bumped up to 89 degrees and 1.5 cups of aquarium salt were added last night after a maybe 20% water change.
> 
> Side note: No visible signs of ich now (maybe 1 or 2 but its hard to tell) so that front is coming along nicely.


Read an interesting article Dr Tim sent me that confirms that at least Zinc and Copper could be culprits, I have about half of the article left to go though. So I will remain with the fact that you need to use a safe dechlorinator. I use API Tap Water and Aquacleanse.

smellsfishy1,

I think that if 1ppm of free chlorine does in effectively an entire colony in 3 minutes, 0.1ppm ought to do something not exactly positive. Finally, the issue still remains that there could be chloramines, which won't dissipate easily in open air.


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## KARMAL

Like I said in an earlier post, tanks don't instantly cycle. At least I've never seen that happen. You can't fool nature, the best you can do is speed up the natural process, which I have found Dr. Tim's is quite successful at. It's a little naive to just dump it in and expect a natural process to instantly occur.
For Fbodyfan's situation- massive daily water changes will give your fish the best chance of survival but will slow down your cycle. 
If I were in the same position (and believe me, I have been), I would remove the fish from the 125g to a temporary home and concentrate on cycling the 125g as quickly as possible. The temporary home can be a brand new tank since your 125g will probably cycle before the ammonia spike on the new tank, and even if it doesn't you can control the ammonia on the temporary tank with massive water changes without worrying about lengthening the cycle (since you are not cycling the new tank). But it may be a little late for all that now, since it seems you are on a nitrite spike, which oddly enough is where I have found Dr. Tim's to be the most effective. Contrary to what I have read on this forum, Dr. Tim's hasn't had a noticeable effect on my ammonia spikes, but always shortens my nitrite spikes to two days or less. 
You could be quite close to a completed cycle.


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## John27

KARMAL said:


> Like I said in an earlier post, tanks don't instantly cycle. At least I've never seen that happen. You can't fool nature, the best you can do is speed up the natural process, which I have found Dr. Tim's is quite successful at. It's a little naive to just dump it in and expect a natural process to instantly occur.
> For Fbodyfan's situation- massive daily water changes will give your fish the best chance of survival but will slow down your cycle.
> If I were in the same position (and believe me, I have been), I would remove the fish from the 125g to a temporary home and concentrate on cycling the 125g as quickly as possible. The temporary home can be a brand new tank since your 125g will probably cycle before the ammonia spike on the new tank, and even if it doesn't you can control the ammonia on the temporary tank with massive water changes without worrying about lengthening the cycle (since you are not cycling the new tank). But it may be a little late for all that now, since it seems you are on a nitrite spike, which oddly enough is where I have found Dr. Tim's to be the most effective. Contrary to what I have read on this forum, Dr. Tim's hasn't had a noticeable effect on my ammonia spikes, but always shortens my nitrite spikes to two days or less.
> You could be quite close to a completed cycle.


You can call it "bottled nature" if you prefer but it worked for me. I also got an 8 oz bottle, if you get one too small then it's probably not going to be instantaneous. But I saw nitrates within an hour, and complete ammonia oxidation in 24 (with a bioload higher than anticipated, i.e. 3ppm ammonia added from an ammonium chloride solution).

That said, I agree people should be cautious, add Dr Tims and ammonia, then check your results.


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## fox

I did not read this whole thread so 'scuse me if this has been thrashed about already.

I still do not see why you are adding ammonia and bottled BB. Just a waste of money to me that could go to more pretty fishies or that Tunze Turbelle stream 6105 :drooling:

If you add ammonia be patient and wait for yer colony to grow forgit that bottled BB. opcorn:

If you add bottled BB, add yer fish and enjoy the tank save the ammonia.

I've set up many tanks in the past and used Bio Spira and guess what ... nobody died ... not sure I even saw a spike.

I set up a 210 last January in a rush dictated by the wife, let the water age one day with pumps running, the next day in went 14' of full grown haps and a bottle of SafeStart good for 75G.

Guess what ... noone died and there was no spikes. ( :roll: I did add 6 - 12 bio balls from a seeded tank :roll: )

Two weeks now and a 65G that I just set up using the other bottle of SafeStart I bought back in January with 24 full grown mbuna and Guess what? Noone died and no spikes.

This bottled BB has come a long way in the thirty years or so I have been keeping fish and if Dr T's is anything like SafeStart ittsa winner. I have not used Dr T's but have used SafeStart so if you are having problems with it mebbe one should read the manual first.

This stuff really is a nobraina, WYSIWYG, just add enough for your stock level and sit back.

For me that is boring as half the fun is in getting there and unless I am under the gun I'll put my $25 towards that Tunze :drooling: and let the ammonia do its magic.

I'm just a messenger ... YMMV


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## John27

fox said:


> I did not read this whole thread so 'scuse me if this has been thrashed about already.
> 
> I still do not see why you are adding ammonia and bottled BB. Just a waste of money to me that could go to more pretty fishies or that Tunze Turbelle stream 6105 :drooling:
> 
> If you add ammonia be patient and wait for yer colony to grow forgit that bottled BB. opcorn:
> 
> If you add bottled BB, add yer fish and enjoy the tank save the ammonia.
> 
> I've set up many tanks in the past and used Bio Spira and guess what ... nobody died ... not sure I even saw a spike.
> 
> I set up a 210 last January in a rush dictated by the wife, let the water age one day with pumps running, the next day in went 14' of full grown haps and a bottle of SafeStart good for 75G.
> 
> Guess what ... noone died and there was no spikes. ( :roll: I did add 6 - 12 bio balls from a seeded tank :roll: )
> 
> Two weeks now and a 65G that I just set up using the other bottle of SafeStart I bought back in January with 24 full grown mbuna and Guess what? Noone died and no spikes.
> 
> This bottled BB has come a long way in the thirty years or so I have been keeping fish and if Dr T's is anything like SafeStart ittsa winner. I have not used Dr T's but have used SafeStart so if you are having problems with it mebbe one should read the manual first.
> 
> This stuff really is a nobraina, WYSIWYG, just add enough for your stock level and sit back.
> 
> For me that is boring as half the fun is in getting there and unless I am under the gun I'll put my $25 towards that Tunze :drooling: and let the ammonia do its magic.
> 
> I'm just a messenger ... YMMV


Actually, Dr Tim had a hand, a very very big hand, in Bio Spira AND Safe Start. One and Only is effectively the "third version" of what has really been his own creation all along (excluding the various other products like Cycle and fish care for dummies that, might just be water and, water, for all anyone knows. They are utterly useless)


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## Bearbear

The Earth is also flat. :thumb: 
Space is made in a Hollywood basement.
opcorn:


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## FbodyFan

UPDATE

Ok. Either my entire API test kit has gone bad or somehow both my tanks are now cycled.

36G:amonia=0, nitrites=0, nitrates= between 2 and 5.

125G: amonia=0, nitrites=0, nitrates=5

Not sure how they both cycled at the same time since the 36 seemed so far ahead the entire time. My only guess is that maybe the raised temp on the 125 helped to speed it up. Either way, I'm going to retest tomorrow to try and verify these results.


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## John27

Well, like Dr Tim said, Friday was the first day I saw 0 nitrites after 24 hours, today I stocked with some 1" yellow labs and 3/4" Cynotilapia afra (Nkhata Bay)!

-John


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## DrTim's

Fbodyfan

Are your water chemistries stable?

Glad to see London calling but our products aren't there until the end of the month so not sure hwo they got a hold of a bottle  maybe a worm hole


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## FbodyFan

Dr. Tim:

Yes. My water levels have been 0 amonia and nitrite, and ~5 nitrate for both tanks for a week now. Nitrates started out pretty high on the 36 but a water change or 2 took care of that. Nitrates on the 125 have not hit above 5.

Thanks for all the help. :thumb:


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## DrTim's

Hi Fbodyfan:

You're welcome. Great news, I am not sure what happened with that hitch but it didn't seem to last long. Good fishkeeping!


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