# Saprolegniasis?? Maybe ich??



## Steve St.Laurent (Oct 2, 2008)

First, this is a pretty new tank - was setup on november 21st. It's a 90 gallon tank with a 15 gallon sump. Filtering is an Eheim 2028 and ~4 gallons of bio balls about 1/4 of which are submerged in the sump. The sump pumps ~350 gph to/from the tank. I used 80 lbs of Eco complete cichlid substrate which is supposed to have good bacteria and also put two biomax media bags (70 gallon tank size) that were taken out of well established tanks. Current water test shows 0 ammonia, .5 ppm nitrite, 5 ppm nitrate, ph 8.2, dGH 10, dKH 22. I'm keeping the tank at 80 degrees.

One of my female Polits is showing some white fuzzy spots on her right side towards the back. Just noticed it tonight and I've been watching them a lot. It doesn't look like ich as I remember it (getting back into the hobby after 20 years away). From the description it looks like it might be Saprolegniasis. I'm attaching a picture that was the best I could take of it - hard to get a good pic. She isn't acting strange at all - isn't flashing, is eating fine, etc.

Question is how to treat it and what do you think it is? I have a 20 gallon tank setup to be a quarantine tank but it has 5 2" BN Pleco's in it right now that I just received yesterday. The Polit is in the 90 gallon tank right now with quite a few others. I spent an hour catching 3 labs the other day - had to take all the rock out, etc. I'm afraid with my catching skills I'll just stress her out more. Thoughts on how I should treat her/the tank? Should I go ahead and catch her and move her to the QT tank with the new plecos and treat her in there? Or should I just treat in my main tank since the others could be affected as well? If I should treat what do you suggest treating with, how long, etc? I have ~140 lbs of holey rock in there, the Eco complete sand substrate and some plastic plants. I read where Malachite green was suggested but also saw where it was likely to stain the silicon seals in my glass tank and I assume it might stain the rock as well. Would rather not stain stuff.

Thoughts would be GREATLY appreciated! The pet store opens at 9am and I plan on being there first thing so that I can start treating it asap. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Hello and welcome back to the hobby after 20 years!!

I can't really tell anything from the picture but it sounds like it's either a bacterial or fungal infection. 
I hear you about the problems with catching her to remove to a hospital tank but the problems with treating her in the 90 is that for one, it's going to be more expensive and two, your tank is new and apparently not cycled so you really don't want to be dumping meds in there that will slow or kill your beneficial bacteria. 
The problem with treating for a specific fungus or bacterial is that you need to be sure you've diagnosed it correctly. Otherwise the med you use may or may not work and you've possibly wasted valuable time--some of these bacterial and fungal infections can kill a fish in a matter o hours. It's impossible for me to know if what your fish has is bacterial or fungal, much less which bacteria or fungus so what I usually do is suggest a med that will cast a wide net.

First off: do a partial water change of 40% using a good quality declorinator. 
Turn the temp down to 76. 
Add aquarium salt at the rate of 1-2 tablespoons per five gallons
Increase water movement (Salt and increased water movement will help keep the bacteria/fungus from spreading but it's not a cure all by itself)
Medication choices: 
Maracyn and Maracyn-two, used concurently
Kanamycyn
Furan2

Please post back with additional questions and concerns. I'll be out the rest of today but someone eles I'm sure will step in to help you further  .

Robin


----------



## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

One more thing: the .5ppm nitrite is not good for your fish. Make sure you're using a declorinator that detoxifies nitrite and use it at the maximum recommended dosage for nitrite. Seachem Prime and Amquel-plus are two I can recommend but there are others that will do the job. (There are MANY that won't do the job, though, so check it out carefully)

The addition of aquarium salt will also help detoxify nitrite.

Whether your fish has a bacterial or fungal infection it was likely brought on by stress and more often than not that stress comes from poor water conditions. So addressing your water quality will help heal and prevent.

Robin


----------



## Steve St.Laurent (Oct 2, 2008)

I am using Seachem Prime. I'm doing water changes weekly at 20% and when I do the water change I'm adding enough prime for the whole tank - is that often enough or should I add the prime bi-weekly or more often?

So are you suggesting that I go ahead and do my best to catch her and move her to the hospital tank for treatment? If so, should I go ahead and reduce the temp in the main tank and add the salts there? Also, what about the pleco's that I have in that tank now? FYI - I am using Seachems cichlid salts in the tank at 10 tbsp in the approximately 110 gallons of water in the system (to raise the GH). Does that affect the amount of aquarium salt I should add? I'm going to head to the store now and get API aquarium salt and one of the meds suggested and I'll get to work on whatever I need to do when I get home.

Thanks for the advice.


----------



## RyanR (Apr 29, 2008)

I don't want to horn it to this thread because Robin is a true expert!

Only add enough water conditioner and salt to treat just the water that you add to the tank. So if you add 20 gallons of water, only add enough salt/conditioner to treat that 20 gallons.

API salt/cichlid salt should be pretty close to the same stuff... just remember to treat only the amount of water that you add to the tank... especially with the salt.

We've had good luck treating a chronic fungus problem in one of our 75g tanks with salt, melafix, pimafix, and frequent 50% water changes. Getting pond grade (concentrated) Melafix and Pimafix makes treating the whole tank fairly inexpensive.... but I'll defer to Robin as to whether this is appropriate for you.

Using long hoses and pumps to the back door and kitchen sink can make big water changes really easy.

Good luck!
-Ryan


----------



## Steve St.Laurent (Oct 2, 2008)

Ok, I'm back from the pet store and what I did was buy a 10 gallon tank to use for a hospital tank. I put a power head and a 3" air stone in there to agitate the water. I have the temp in that tank set to 76 degrees and have put Maracyn and Maracyn 2 in along with the Cichlid salts at my normal ratio for now - so the salt is at 1 tsp (teaspoon - not table spoon) per 10 gallons of the cichlid salts. I'll hold off on adding more salts until I hear back from Robin tonight. The Polit still isn't acting wierd at all so maybe I caught it early enough. I did a 40% water change in the main tank and have my sump return sitting above the water line now so it's creating a LOT of water movement.

So the questions remaining now are should I add more salt (and which kind) to the main tank? I have both the API salt and Cichlid salt now (right now it's at 1 tsp per 10 gallons). Should I reduce the temp to 76?

How about the hospital tank - add more salt (and which kind)? Temp is set at 76 and has the Maracyn & Maracyn 2 in there.


----------



## RyanR (Apr 29, 2008)

Just keep a close eye on the ammonia levels in the hospital/quarantine tank... it can be hard to get these cycled, especially if adding meds. Does your water conditioner control ammonia/nitrite/nitrate?

-Ryan


----------



## Steve St.Laurent (Oct 2, 2008)

Yes, Seachem prime detoxifies ammonia/nitrite/nitrate:

"Primeâ„¢ also contains a binder which renders ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate non-toxic. "

I also have a Seachem test kit that tests for both total ammonia and free ammonia (the toxic kind) so I can monitor that easily.


----------



## Steve St.Laurent (Oct 2, 2008)

Did another water test after the 40% water change (after several hours for everything to settle out). Ammonia and Nitrite are now at 0, Nitrate at 5 ppm. Ph and hardness the same (8.2 and 10 dGH).


----------



## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Got back very late but I'm up early. 8)

API Cichlid Mineral Salts is Calcium Chloride which will buffer the ph. You can continue to use it as you always have but what you want in this case is Sodium Chloride, which is plain old table salt without any additives. Sold in pet stores as Aquarium Salt. The two salts can be used together without any problem

That's great that you're already using the Prime. Read over the label to find where it gives the dosage for detoxifying nitrite. Also take note that if you're adding the declorinator directly to the tank as opposed to adding it to the new water first, then you want to dose for the entire tank volume, not just the new water. That's a bit confusing, I know.

On the hospital tankrepare the water exactly as you do the main tank's water so that the fish isn't stressed with a sudden change in water parameters. You could even fill half the ten gallon with the established tank's water. 
Aquarium salt, sodium chloride, should be added at 1-2 TABLEspoons per five gallons. Note: if you were using the sodium chloride _just _to detoxify nitrite you would only need 1 TEAspoon per TEN gallons. Dissolve the salt first and add it gradually to the tank after the fish is already in it. You add it gradually so that the fish doesn't experience a sudden change.

I would add the sodium chloride to both tanks as a precaution and also keep the temps around 76 in both.

Treating a fish with a _suspected_ bacterial or fungal infection is tricky. It IS possible to treat and cure with improved water conditions, increased water movement, sodium chloride and Pimafix _depending on the strain of bacteria/fungus _you're dealing with and also how long the fish has had the problem. 
But it's not always possible to know exactly what you're dealing with and sometimes this lesser approach is not going be enough. If you've already lost a fish to the same thing, or the infection has come on rapidly and is spreading fast--or the fish has had the problem for a LONG time and it's been getting progressively worse even in the presence of optimum conditions-- then you definitely want to go with the more aggressive treatments.

Very hard to tell sometimes which way to go on these things.

How is the fish today?

Robin


----------



## Steve St.Laurent (Oct 2, 2008)

Ok, I did everything listed last night actually after figuring out just how much salt 2 tablespoons per 5 gallons is in 110 gallons of water!! (compared to 10 tsp that I'm using of the Cichlid salts)

The Polit in the hospital tank looks to be doing fine. Can't even see the infection today. However, the other polit in the main tank is now showing it as well so I'll be catching her in a few minutes here and moving her to the hospital tank as well  .


----------



## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Glad to hear the fish is recovering.

I would continue to watch the fish in the main tank, test the water and do daily or every other day partial water changes. The speed with which the 1st fish recovered makes me think this is all water quality related and can therefore be cured with improved water conditions.

Robin


----------



## Steve St.Laurent (Oct 2, 2008)

How much water would you suggest I change daily or every other day? I have my sump setup so that I can change out ~10 gallons VERY easily (a little less than 10%) - would that be enough?

Assuming that I'm changing out 10 gallons should I add the aquarium salts for now to maintain the 1-2 tbsp per 5 gallon ratio for now (assuming yes)?

How long should I maintain the salt level at that rate?

How long do you think I should leave the polits in the hospital tank. The Maracyn said to treat for 5 days so I'll do that through thursday and see how they are doing. Should I leave them in there for a while after that?

Should I be doing partial water changes daily on the hospital tank (10 gallon)? Maybe right before I add the medication?

How about the water temp - how long should I keep the temp down at 76?

Also, curious why you suggested reduced the temp? I've read when it comes to ich to raise the temp. Just trying to learn for the future.

Thanks for all the help - it's GREATLY appreciated! and sorry for all the questions


----------



## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

> How much water would you suggest I change daily or every other day? I have my sump setup so that I can change out ~10 gallons VERY easily (a little less than 10%) - would that be enough?


If you're doing daily water changes to combat high nitrite then I would do 20-30%. 


> Assuming that I'm changing out 10 gallons should I add the aquarium salts for now to maintain the 1-2 tbsp per 5 gallon ratio for now (assuming yes)?
> 
> How long should I maintain the salt level at that rate?


Not exactly sure what you're asking but initially you should add enough salt to treat the entire tank. So in the case of the 90 gallon and say you decided to go with 2 Tablespoons per five gallons. Figuring that your tank holds closer to 80 gallons allowing for the substrate, rocks, etc, that works out to 32 tablespoons, (2 cups) of sodium chloride. In this initial dose you would dissolve the salt first and add it gradually over several hours time. 
Then say you do a 25% water change removing 20 gallons. 20 gallons holds 8 tablespoons of salt so when you refill the tank you'll dissolve 8 tablespoons of salt and add it directly to the new water you're adding. No need to add the salt gradually as the fish are already use to it. 
I would keep the salt at this level for a week or so and then if all seems well gradually reduce it with water changes. 


> How long do you think I should leave the polits in the hospital tank. The Maracyn said to treat for 5 days so I'll do that through thursday and see how they are doing. Should I leave them in there for a while after that?


 After you finish the treatment give them 2-4 days of observation. If they're symptom free, eating and swimming normally they can go back to the main tank. You don't want to keep them in the H-tank any longer than you have to otherwise the fish in the main tank may be more aggressive to them upon their return.



> Should I be doing partial water changes daily on the hospital tank (10 gallon)? Maybe right before I add the medication?


No need to in the hospital tank. The water changes in the main tank are necessary to lower the nitrite. You should be testing the water daily to monitor nitrite and ammonia levels. Once both are those are consistantly 0 you can just do weekly partial water changes.



> How about the water temp - how long should I keep the temp down at 76?
> 
> Also, curious why you suggested reduced the temp? I've read when it comes to ich to raise the temp. Just trying to learn for the future.


Some bacterias spread/grow faster in warmer waters so that's why we turn the heat down. You are right about ich--we do use warmer water temps to either speed up it's life-cycle (80-82)or kill it outright (86+), *BUT!* _We're not treating your fish for ich._ Ich is a parasite and will appear on the fish as grains of salt. From the descriptions you've given me it doesn't sound like your fish have ich 

Give the main tank a few more days at the lower temp and then if all seems well, slowly bring it back up to normal.

There! Did I miss anything??  Let me know if I did. I think once you get past this initial start up phase you're going to have a great tank.

Robin


----------



## Steve St.Laurent (Oct 2, 2008)

Thanks Robin, you covered everything. Both girls look to be doing good so far.


----------



## Steve St.Laurent (Oct 2, 2008)

I moved the girls back into the big tank today and they are looking great. The big tank is fully cycled now too - showing 0 ammone and nitrites and 5 ppm nitrates after 2 days.

Thanks for all your help Robin.


----------



## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

You're welcome. Glad everything worked out.

Robin


----------

