# Seeking 2d Opinion on Sump-o-Phobia



## Blooper01 (Mar 1, 2013)

Hi, Everyone,

I'm about to pull the cord and order a 225 gallon aquarium, stand & canopy. This tank is for Malawi Cichlids (moderate stocking level) and there is Zero chance I will ever convert it to salt water (nor even to Discus). These tanks come in two flavors: plain vs. drilled with overflow.

I have been 100% sure all along that I'd get the plain. I have experience with canisters (love 'em), HOB (they have their place, not on a 225 I think), undergravel (Tried Once, Never Again!), and don't laugh, but I like a well-hidden sponge filter or two on any tank - extra air and with battery backup a power failure asset. The current plan is to use redundant beefy canisters (and some air).

I am very resistant to using a sump (unfamiliarity; perception of mess, moisture, possible noise; one more thing to break; drilled-glass-o-phobia), but would be a fool not to ask this forum for a second opinion. Comments, please? Many thanks!

Thank you so very much for any comments. (I started another thread elsewhere, but was unsure whether to post there or put filter question in equipment. Punted.)


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## iridextr (Feb 8, 2013)

Hey I'm not laughing I have a sponge on every tank in my house except the mini reef tank. And I don't even bother hiding them anymore, they're great. But as for the sump, I used to use one on my 125, loved it. I really wouldn't worry about the holes, especially if it's pre drilled. I drilled the holes myself and had no problem! I was scared at first too, but it's really a great system. If you set it up right, it's not loud at all and is just a nice trickling sound, like I'm listening to with my HOBs and sponges. You just need to get the right bends in the pipes and put filter sponge where needed, it baffles out all the sounds for the most part.
As for moisture.. never really occurred to me but I never had a problem.. I had my tank on a stand I made myself and it did not have panels, thus a ton of air circulation, if yours is enclosed then maybe you'll get a little but not enough to worry about IMO. If you're worried just make a lid for the sump, I've had great luck using that corrugated plastic that cheap stick-in-the-yard-on-a-cheap-steel-stick-frame signs are made of for temporary lids or q-tank lids. 
Overall, I'd say it would be cheaper to run a sump than get several canister filters. get a 55g tank used off craigslist (there are always a ton), and silicone some glass panels into it. You can find endless sump plans and designs online. Get some egg crate to set your filter pads on (if that's the style you decide to go with), and add the media to bags or whatever you wanna do. The most expensive part will probably be the pump lol.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

To be honest I worry MUCH more about canisters leaking than a sump leaking. Sump is just a better option IMHO.


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## Blooper01 (Mar 1, 2013)

Really appreciate your thoughtful responses, iridextr and 13razorbackfan, you have given me a lot to think about. Glad to hear, iridextr, that it is not so loud - appreciate hearing about your experience with the 125. It is good to hear that someone else also had hesitancy about the sump before deploying one. A lid sounds like a necessity if I do this (moisture concerns plus cat-proofing) and I appreciate the ideas on that as well as the implied suggestion to not get rid of all my smaller tanks too hastily - one might work as a sump. Hmmm.... Thanks for giving me the other side of the story on this. Lots to consider.

I was going to use 3-4 x 100 gallon capacity canisters from tanks I'm phasing out, but quickly realized that even if that moved enough water, there may be a problem with distance from base of canister to water level. So, the next (non-sump) plan was to buy FX5s. Hmmm.....


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## Blooper01 (Mar 1, 2013)

Oops, I have a couple more questions and they may be really dumb questions.

1) Once the plumbing is all set up, assuming smart use of valves, competent installation, and lack of a freak accident (big assumptions, but gotta start somewhere) how important is it to be able to conveniently reach in from the top of the tank and work on gear at the bottom of the back overflow where the plumbing is? Reason I ask... tank dimensions are 27" high. I'm 5.4. Will have stepladder and 3-sides access, but still...

2) Does anyone have experience of using a sump-ready (drilled, reef-ready, or whatever the correct terminology is) with the holes plugged and canister-only? Is this a complete bonehead idea to keep options open or have it both ways?

Clearly, I do need to do a lot more research, but I find experienced user comments so much more valuable and credible than spec sheets, etc., so am very grateful.


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## timbo6684 (Aug 29, 2010)

I'm about to buy a 180 that's been pre drilled but the plumbing needs to be re done so I'm anxiously awaiting for the answers on this thread as well because I have no experience with sumps either.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I cannot offer any advice, and will be following any answers posted here, but this is just a link to older posts on the forum using the advanced search function on the home page. keyword: sump builds

https://www.google.com/search?q=sump+builds&sitesearch=www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB&t=0&submit=Search


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## jcabage (May 29, 2012)

I would definitely choose to use a sump over a canister for several reasons. The most significant being, you don't have to have a bunch of equipment in your tank.

Using a drilled tank is nothing to be intimidated about. Once you get everything set up right, they are a breeze. Setting up isn't all that difficult either.

The only reason I have ever found to attempt to reach into the overflow was a build up of sand or detritus over time. That can be easily removed with a siphon hose though. I like to use threaded bulk heads so I can just unscrew my plumbing if need be. Other than that, a sump is just as simple as any other type of filtration. Swap out your filter floss and clean your sponge(s) on occasion. No big deal! You can even keep an extra sponge filter running in the sump if you like.

Evaporation can be easily solved with a lid as others have mentioned. If you are going to buy a drilled tank, you can use a canister, but it would be a shame to waste those good holes


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## Blooper01 (Mar 1, 2013)

Hooray, jcabage, many thanks for the answers! Gotta say, I did not think this would happen -- the group has me pretty much now sold on the wisdom of at least getting a sump-ready tank. :thumb: That's great work, folks, thanks! Thanks, iggy, for the DIY links, and thanks to those who PM'd. Wow. Will share any interesting results, of course, as they develop!


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## Blooper01 (Mar 1, 2013)

One more silly question... (just one, lol?)

OK, there is a lot of information on Sump Builds. At the risk of attracting a hailstorm of rotten tomatoes, how about the concept of Sump Buy? :lol:

I want to be very clear that this question is posed with the greatest of respect for the DIY-ers on the forum.

In fact, I consider myself a giant DIY-er, though in other areas. Which is why perhaps picking my battles (or knowing my own limits) is a good thing. I believe it has to be a labor of love, and for sump building I'm not feeling it.

Any words of wisdom on Sump Buy for a 225 Gallon? Again, asked with respect.

I suppose the specific question is: buy a whole one off the internet, buy the pieces & get advice at lfs, or get the guys who install it to do something? Actually, I don't like option #3, it seems a bit too spoon fed.


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## Blooper01 (Mar 1, 2013)

PS, by the guys who "install it," I mean delivery and placement -- not the hands-on fish stuff!


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## jcabage (May 29, 2012)

A factory sump for a tank that large will be hundreds of dollars.

This is not intended to be a tomato, but sumps builds, a lot like a drilled tank, can seem intimidating at first. In the end, however, all you really need is some silicone, a couple sheets of cut glass for baffles, and a tank to put the stuff in (maybe a 75?). You can save a ton of $$$ if you get glass cut to fit your tank and use some GE1 window and door silicone. It doesn't even have to be pretty. All it has to do is house a pump, some sponges/floss, and bio media. Many of the DIY sumps you see online are incredibly complicated, but that is completely not necessary.

If you still are against building one - I would say a good LFS will be your best place to start. Or maybe you could find someone to build one for you.


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

I don't think you will find any retail "sump filters". They do sell wet/dry filters for your size tank that have a sump chamber in them. The whole sump filter idea is something that hobbyists invented which resembles a large under tank power filter or open canister. The closest thing to that available from a retailer is a refugium. They are more suited to a saltwater tank and would likely require some DIY to make it work.


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## chiroken (Sep 25, 2007)

I'm in the process of setting up a 300g with a 140g sump. Can't wait! So many experienced people suggest it isn't a huge challenge and they all can't be wrong! I look forward to no more HOB's, no more canisters and a clean looking tank with NO cables or hoses of any kind in the tank other than the return nozzle. Someone mentioned placing a sponge in the sump, I will be doing the same using a power head. Instant filter so a Q tank. One chamber will have space to house a fish if I need to get one out of the main tank. Heaters in the sump too. Solid glued plumbing vs hoses and clamps sound safer to me too. 1 word of caution: calculate your max fill line in The sump to avoid overflow if you have a power outage.


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## Blooper01 (Mar 1, 2013)

Wow, you folks on this board are so generous to help! Nothing sounded like a tomato at all. Very thought provoking. I really hope to be able to return the favor some day with setup learnings - though maybe that is more of a "pay it forward" than return. The Sump Builds are totally fascinating. opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: and I will continue to look at those - lots to learn and better than a movie!

Here's my "final at the moment" plan:

* Order "pro" (pre-drilled) version of 225 tank. (Phone conversation with LFS (excellent store, deserved well reviewed on this forum) yesterday -- guy asks something like "for Cichlids? are you *sure* you want drilled?") "Oh, no! Don't ask me that!" I thought. Actually, I'm *not* sure of anything, but decided to Go Big or Go Home with this group's help/inspiration!  If nothing else, it will eliminate some clutter and leave options open. Most importantly -- I am very sure that a see-through filter situation will be very helpful to keeping me on top of maintenance. That is worth a lot.
* Shop at said LFS for a "store bought" wet-dry filter with some sump capability. (Thanks, b3w4r3, I really appreciate the clarification.) Buy it, install it, use it. Attain basic literacy: what it can do for me, how I like to use it. Option is open to build something bigger/better with custom features later.
* Chiroken, really appreciate your comment on max fill line. Will ask LFS *lots* of questions! 
* Yes, jcabage, probably $300-$400. I will rationalize the cost of non-DIY this time with the knowledge that I do save money DIY-ing it on many other things. But I appreciate the warning, very much. Probably still less $$$ than 2x FX5. By a bit, anyhoo. (Low tank build skills, Mad rationalization skills!) :wink: 
* Start 225 "Tank Setup" thread so I can pay some of this forward to others.

Thanks!

Yay! Thanks!


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## jcabage (May 29, 2012)

Blooper01 said:


> (Low tank build skills, Mad rationalization skills!) :wink:


Rationalization is all you ever really need :thumb:

It sounds like you have a good plan. Looking forward to the build thread!


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

I was nervous as could be setting up my first wet/dry system and a CPR overflow. Personally I wouldnt have the CPR overflow if it wasnt for a killer combo deal from a guy getting out of the hobby on craigslist. I would have just built a DIY system. Anyways, once its set up and running you will see that operating in the proper ranges there are little worries.


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

I love my sump. Extra water to the system, no leaks, no moisture, good place to hide equipment.... It is noisy. At times I can dial it in so that it is as quiet as a HOB.

My favorite thing is my auto water change set up. I have a bulk head in the sump that drains to the sewer. 12+ gallons of fresh water dripped in each day.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Never saw it mentioned but there is a negative regarding overflows. They can take up a lot of room in the floor of your tank. Particularly the "Megaflow" overflows that are made by Aqueon (I think).

Just throwing that out there because I didn't see it mentioned.


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## chiroken (Sep 25, 2007)

cantrell00 said:


> Never saw it mentioned but there is a negative regarding overflows. They can take up a lot of room in the floor of your tank. Particularly the "Megaflow" overflows that are made by Aqueon (I think).
> 
> Just throwing that out there because I didn't see it mentioned.


Good point. I am considering taking out my 2 overflows in an 8' tank. They come straight out of the middle of each end 8" and are 12" deep. Turn the main width into a 6" 6 1/2" tank that actually measures 8' total width. Terrible position for them. If they come out I will use a very sleek and slim box by glass-holes.com. For a 300g tank the box measures 18.5"wide, 7"high, 3.5" deep and mounts off the back wall.Saves tons of space.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

chiroken said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> > Never saw it mentioned but there is a negative regarding overflows. They can take up a lot of room in the floor of your tank. Particularly the "Megaflow" overflows that are made by Aqueon (I think).
> ...


Have installed them in 3 builds. They are awesome. 1500 gph version.

Acrylic tank?


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## chiroken (Sep 25, 2007)

cantrell00 said:


> chiroken said:
> 
> 
> > cantrell00 said:
> ...


Good to know. No, 3/4" glass tank for the 300g. Just learned I get to keep my 90g (was supposed to go once the 300g is set up) as long as I go discus with it (makes me an intercontinental aquarist :wink: ). That is also a standard glass tank. Thinking of going with the glass-holes box with both. I think the 90g would be the 1500 model and the 300g the 3000 model. Hit pretty good with shipping up to Canada though. Nervous as all get out to drill 4 holes (including 2 returns) in an 8' sheet of 3/4" glass!


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

May need two glass cutters. The ones they sell in their kit work great. Once. 3/4" is a lot of glass to blow through.

Take your time. Use a variable strength cordless drill to minimize over torquing.. Keep the bit wet and make sure you have towels etc. to keep the piece of scrap glass that has been drilled out from falling and hitting the glass on the opposite side.

Drilling glass is a lot less dramatic than it seems. No biggie.


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## chiroken (Sep 25, 2007)

cantrell00 said:


> May need two glass cutters. The ones they sell in their kit work great. Once. 3/4" is a lot of glass to blow through.
> 
> Take your time. Use a variable strength cordless drill to minimize over torquing.. Keep the bit wet and make sure you have towels etc. to keep the piece of scrap glass that has been drilled out from falling and hitting the glass on the opposite side.
> 
> Drilling glass is a lot less dramatic than it seems. No biggie.


Good tip, may have an extra bit thrown in. Of course I'll have 3 difference holes sizes most likely...outflow for 300g, outflow for 90g and 4 returns.


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## Blooper01 (Mar 1, 2013)

Glad to see so much great discussion. Thanks to everyone! Sorry I've been offline -- very busy moving fish around and painting walls in the fish room. Finished yesterday!

Well, I went nuts and bought the pre-drilled 225g tank, thought about filtration a few more days and then went for the sump setup. Awaiting delivery. Folks at the fish store probably think I'm nuts. Pending delivery, the only downside is that if I decide on 3D background things need a little more cutting and fitting - or do they -- I've seen a lot of people cutting and fitting like crazy to hide over-the-back gear. Decorating decisions were fluid anyhow. The Universal Rocks 3D stuff is killer beautiful, but not sure it is my style. Love the current thread on 225 that seems to have a black background. Anyhow, also pending delivery, the upside is that I can envision opening the stand doors, being able to see the condition of my media, and being able to do maintenance right there, versus pulling out the canister to check whether it needs servicing (which is easy to put off to another day).

I believe the "possibility of overflowing" issue will be accounted for. Famous last words.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Blooper01 said:


> Glad to see so much great discussion. Thanks to everyone! Sorry I've been offline -- very busy moving fish around and painting walls in the fish room. Finished yesterday!
> 
> Well, I went nuts and bought the pre-drilled 225g tank, thought about filtration a few more days and then went for the sump setup. Awaiting delivery. Folks at the fish store probably think I'm nuts. Pending delivery, the only downside is that if I decide on 3D background things need a little more cutting and fitting - or do they -- I've seen a lot of people cutting and fitting like crazy to hide over-the-back gear. Decorating decisions were fluid anyhow. The Universal Rocks 3D stuff is killer beautiful, but not sure it is my style. Love the current thread on 225 that seems to have a black background. Anyhow, also pending delivery, the upside is that I can envision opening the stand doors, being able to see the condition of my media, and being able to do maintenance right there, versus pulling out the canister to check whether it needs servicing (which is easy to put off to another day).
> 
> I believe the "possibility of overflowing" issue will be accounted for. Famous last words.


If you call Universal Rocks, they can make you a thin "Rocky" background that you can wrap over the overflows. They can make the rocky as long as 8' (I think?) - I do know it was longer than 6' when I bought mine..

Here is a link to my install.. Will give you a good idea of just how flexible it is.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=250896


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## Blooper01 (Mar 1, 2013)

Nice link! Thanks so much! I was assuming they don't go 27" tall (height of my tank) except in the very 3D West Texas style, but love your idea of calling them directly and finding out what they can do.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

They can accommodate 27" too I believe. Good folks to deal with.


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