# Breeding Tropheus Moorii Kiriza Kaiser with Moorii Bemba



## kazfish (Aug 1, 2012)

I have a female Tropheus Moorii Bemba that is carrying eggs in her mouth.

The breeding male is a Tropheus Moorii Kiriza Kaiser.

Is there a major issue with the matching of two color forms? The way my tank turned out after things settled is 2 male Kiriza Kaisers and 2 female Bembas. They are in a colony with 8 Dubosi's and 4 Sunspots. Everyone gets along pretty well....all starting to mature now to breeding stage however.

What should I expect from the offspring of this pair?

The tank is a 75 gallon and I have 2 lelupi's and 2 calvus in there as well.

Thanks

Kaz


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## rennsport2011 (Oct 21, 2013)

kazfish said:


> Is there a major issue with the matching of two color forms?


If you are asking, will the fry have major defects, no they'll be fine, and survive quite well.

If you are asking, do most frown up such breedings, well yes these breedings are frowned upon. Having said that, if you keep them in your tanks forever, no matter what, nobody has an issue with it.



> What should I expect from the offspring of this pair?
> 
> z


Some could look like Mom, some like Dad, and a bunch will be along the spectrum between both.


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## kazfish (Aug 1, 2012)

Yes, I was trying to understand the impact of a small batch of a hybrid like this ending up in a pet store somewhere and what the effect is on the general gene pool and Tropheus Moorii population. Can you elaborate more on why they are frowned upon - my goal is to understand the ramifications so I can adjust how I set the tanks up in the future.

Thank you!


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## rennsport2011 (Oct 21, 2013)

kazfish said:


> Yes, I was trying to understand the impact of a small batch of a hybrid like this ending up in a pet store somewhere and what the effect is on the general gene pool and Tropheus Moorii population. Can you elaborate more on why they are frowned upon - my goal is to understand the ramifications so I can adjust how I set the tanks up in the future.
> 
> Thank you!


If they end up in a pet store, and are mistaken for one parent strain or another, you could end up with a situation where ALL of the population in that area end up being hybrids. They are frowned upon, as people don't like having the strains mixed, they want to know what they are buying, and particularly with a fish like Tropheus, want a pure strain. The thing to do is either let the fry be eaten, or cull them, if you don't plan on keeping them. The only way to eliminate the risk of hybrids as much as possible, is to keep fish that aren't as closely related, and in groups large enough to reduce the risk of hybridization.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

The simple answer is that any fry from the spawning of the Tropheus moorii 'bemba' female and the T. moorii 'Kirisa kaiser' male is a mix of the two locations that these fish are originally from or that the breeder that you received the fish from went to great lengths to maintain the location of the fish. Many people go to great lengths to get a species with a known collection point and will avoid any mixing of location collection points.

My suggestion is to either keep any fry resulting from this spawning in your aquarium for the rest of their life or dispose of the fry. It may seem harsh and you will find many other posts that think it is wrong to dispose of mixed fry but in my experience it is the right thing to do.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

I personally would let the female spit in the tank and hope that the fry get eaten. If they do survive, I would cull them myself.
Moving forward, I would add a fish that will probably eat the fry. I would be sticking to one type in a 75g tank.


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## kazfish (Aug 1, 2012)

Understood...how often do hybrid fish get out into the general population? Has there been a gradual diluting of the gene pool over time already or do the original strains have more staying power and win out over the long run?

How bout this for an option - if they turn out to be really cool looking (crossing orange flame with yellow band) -- why not keep them isolated and enjoy them without moving any of their offspring (if they breed) to the outside world?

Kaz


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Hybrid fish are very common in the pet trade but as far as I'm aware, it usually does not happen in the wild, either due to the large number of the same species or like kind in the area or the discretion/preference for the 'correct' species.

I like your idea for keeping them isolated and it is a viable option. The only downside is that eventually you will have more fish than you can house comfortably so keep that in mind for the future.

There is almost always a good market for quality fish. If at all possible, consider separating the two Tropheus variants that you do have and share the offspring with other aquarists. Maybe you can swap or trade two of the variants you have and enjoy breeding them.


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## kazfish (Aug 1, 2012)

Thank you Dee. So getting right to the point of my inquiry - how much damage to the world would I be contributing if these were traded to a pet store and sold to other aquarists? Is this just a philosophical issue or is this a real problem that starts with everyone in the hobby -- similar to : if everyone through their garbage out the window of their car after eating fast food...the streets would be full of litter? I grew up in the late 60's and early 70's when people actually did that!! 

Thanks again.

BTW - I am in the process of setting up a 150 gal tank to move my Tang Africans up in the world. I have 11 Kenyi fry planned to move into the vacated 75.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

I like your analogy and in my opinion it starts with every aquarist in the hobby. Damage to the world is a bit extreme but fish commonly show up in stores and craigslist ads that are mixed or hybrid and people buy them because they are pretty or different or cheap.

I keep different subspecies or variants separate in my aquariums to avoid any risk or crossbreeding or dilution. At my local fish clubs and auctions, fish from named locations sell for much higher prices than an unknown location. Whether this is elitist or not, is a personal observation. There are so many species and subspecies of fish available in the hobby, I find there is no good reason to develop any man-made ones, especially 'accidental' ones.


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## kazfish (Aug 1, 2012)

Thank you Dee...this is a learning process. I want to get to a point where I am doing the right thing and maximizing my enjoyment of the hobby. I am enamored with Tropheus and their social attributes....taking the good with the bad. Final question - if I take your advice and move the 8 Dubosi's plus one pure strain of the Moorii - (say I only go with the Bemba's and trade out the Kiriza for more Bemba) - to the 150 gallon tank -- would that be advisable for the proper breeding set up? Let's say 8 Dubosi and 8 Moorii Bemba? Any chance of them cross breeding? Or are you saying within Tropheus - having only one subspecies or form in the tank is the only way to ensure no hybridization?

Thanks!

Kaz


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

I have zero experience with Tropheus but here is a link to an article in the Library with some basic 'rules' for Mixing Tropheus I briefly looked it over and it should answer most of your questions.

Hopefully some else with personal experience will join the conversation or you could use the Search feature to see what other's experienced mixing them.


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## kazfish (Aug 1, 2012)

Excellent - have a great Holiday.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

The only way to ensure no crossbreeding takes place is by not mixing them at all. If they are to be mixed, Duboisi or Brichardi types would be the best tankmates for Moorii, sp. Black, Red etc. and even then you should make sure that there are sufficient amounts of males and females of both types. In my experience, Tropheus will not show their best colours when mixed together.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would not buy tropheus from a mixed tank.


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## LouIE82 (Nov 6, 2012)

Kill 'em all!

Purists. :roll: 
Never understood why the word cull is used, just say kill. Imagine if people felt that way about people or even dogs. I would not recommend intentional cross breeding, or cross breeding and selling the offspring to any pet stores, however if you plan to keep them or give/sell them to private parties who are not going to distribute... who cares? Unless you're releasing them as something they are not (like a rare breed, a pure breed, a new breed) and are giving them to people who are not going to breed or distribute, you are not hurting the hobby or the natural order.

Enjoy the fish. :thumb:


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

Some think that some of the Tropheus sold as "Pemba/Bemba" nowadays are Kiriza mixes. Does anyone know if they have actually imported wild Bemba lately, as the area is very difficult (the government and or lack of, not the fish). I tried to get a group of Bemba but every source seemed to have different fish as "Bemba". Did have some nice deep orange ones, and another group of bright yellow ones that were "supposed" to turn orange as they grew. The yellow ones ended up being more vigorous, and stayed bright yellow. Some sellers had juveniles that had some dark juveniles with deep orange color that came and went. Saw other juveniles that all had nice dark with yellow color to some degree, more like Kiriza. Saw other juveniles that were all dull yellowish light brown. All claimed them to be Bemba, that all would show deep orange color when mature. Who knows what their history was.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

LouIE82 said:


> if you plan to keep them or give/sell them to private parties who are not going to distribute... who cares? Unless you're releasing them as something they are not (like a rare breed, a pure breed, a new breed) and are giving them to people who are not going to breed or distribute, you are not hurting the hobby or the natural order.


The problem is that you have no control over the next owner. The view is that you are shifting a problem you created to someone else rather than taking responsibility for the solution yourself. No need to kill the fish. Keeping the fish for their lifetime is a perfectly satisfactory solution.


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## rennsport2011 (Oct 21, 2013)

LouIE82 said:


> Kill 'em all!
> 
> Never understood why the word cull is used, just say kill. Imagine if people felt that way about people or even dogs.


Well, it does happen with dogs, and even people in parts of the world.



> I would not recommend intentional cross breeding, or cross breeding and selling the offspring to any pet stores, however if you plan to keep them or give/sell them to private parties who are not going to distribute... who cares? Unless you're releasing them as something they are not (like a rare breed, a pure breed, a new breed) and are giving them to people who are not going to breed or distribute, you are not hurting the hobby or the natural order.
> 
> Enjoy the fish. :thumb:


Except you have no control of them once they are out of your tanks, and this HAS resulted in hurting the hobby, because they do end up being distributed. :roll:


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

noki said:


> Some think that some of the Tropheus sold as "Pemba/Bemba" nowadays are Kiriza mixes. Does anyone know if they have actually imported wild Bemba lately, as the area is very difficult (the government and or lack of, not the fish). I tried to get a group of Bemba but every source seemed to have different fish as "Bemba". Did have some nice deep orange ones, and another group of bright yellow ones that were "supposed" to turn orange as they grew. The yellow ones ended up being more vigorous, and stayed bright yellow. Some sellers had juveniles that had some dark juveniles with deep orange color that came and went. Saw other juveniles that all had nice dark with yellow color to some degree, more like Kiriza. Saw other juveniles that were all dull yellowish light brown. All claimed them to be Bemba, that all would show deep orange color when mature. Who knows what their history was.


Stick to reputable sellers and you shouldn't have a problem. Ask the seller for pics of the parent fish
Or, as loui82 says, who cares


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## dstuer (Mar 27, 2013)

Think about how many times you have seen, on one or another forum, where someone posts a pic of some nondescript mixed African, Vieja, or some random genus mix of cichlid, and in reality, no one can truthfully identify it. And the owner is left guessing.
In dogs they are called mutts, and can be considered worthless to some, others maybe not.
In fish, one variant may have developed an immunity to some thing in it particular environment, or trait that helps it cope with some issue not found in another area. 
I believe the acute form of the disease Flexibactor columnaris (ducklips) becoming so prevalent these days in cichids may have something to do with all the random (or not) crossbreeding of species. It seems to have been fairly uncommon (at least in cichlids) until the recent manufacture and proliferation of flowerhorns, and bloody parrots.
There may be a dilution of some unseen trait that leads to the weakening of the species, as in the case with Blue Gene Dempseys being a very un-robust line. Many times in the fish trade, beauty or oddity is chosen over health.
Not that this will be the case with yours, but confusion can be problematic at best, if progeny are ever sold down the line.


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## LouIE82 (Nov 6, 2012)

Ransome and Rennsport, I understand your views and agree that control is not guaranteed but I respectfully disagree to a point. I've given many fish away to my brother and friends who keep fish, likewise I have received many fish from them which were never used for breeding or any sort of distribution. I guess if the scenario was repetitive cross breeding with fry to get rid of that would be one story, but the OP is just talking about one batch, of which few fry will likely survive to adulthood.

Lets be honest, some cross breeding must go on in the wild. Not to get into any religious or evolutionary discussions but I'm sure the number of species and variants in the lake have grown over the last few thousand years, doubtful that this was solely from gradual mutation without a bit of cross over. At least in the OP's case he hasn't created a hideously deformed frankenfish like a blood parrot (which I like to be honest).


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## joescaper1 (Feb 14, 2013)

We introduced pollutants and non-indiginous species into their homes. We scalped the landscape and muddied their water. Someday, the ones we removed from their natural habitat may be the only ones left. Keep them pure.

Joe


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

noddy said:


> noki said:
> 
> 
> > Some think that some of the Tropheus sold as "Pemba/Bemba" nowadays are Kiriza mixes. Does anyone know if they have actually imported wild Bemba lately, as the area is very difficult (the government and or lack of, not the fish). I tried to get a group of Bemba but every source seemed to have different fish as "Bemba". Did have some nice deep orange ones, and another group of bright yellow ones that were "supposed" to turn orange as they grew. The yellow ones ended up being more vigorous, and stayed bright yellow. Some sellers had juveniles that had some dark juveniles with deep orange color that came and went. Saw other juveniles that all had nice dark with yellow color to some degree, more like Kiriza. Saw other juveniles that were all dull yellowish light brown. All claimed them to be Bemba, that all would show deep orange color when mature. Who knows what their history was.
> ...


They were the reputable sellers, who had the yellowish "Bemba" that supposed to eventually turn orange.


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## dstuer (Mar 27, 2013)

In nature if 2 different species, or variants interbreed there are environmental pressures that determine whether the progeny survive or not, and only the most robust or strongest do. In the aquarium there are really no such pressures.


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