# need help with current/future stock! long post, please help!



## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

hi everyone. this is my first post in a long time. a few months ago i set up a 75 gallon. i had a male and female convict (fairly small at the time), they had not become a pair yet. i also had a jack dempsey, probably around 4.5 inches and some dithers, beanos aires and giant danios. the jd was beautifull but overnight became NASTY! after a few days and him nearly killing the female con i decided that it best to take i him back before he killed everything. upon returning him i asked what i could replace him with, i always like firemouths so got one. then i was given some bad advice and bought a jurapari eartheater. i was told he would get big enough to withstand the aggressive cons. at this point the male con has grown to probably 4 inches and is a brute. they have formed a pair and begun breeding. (laid eggs about 2 weeks ago but momma ate the eggs) the jurapari is not comfortable in the tank so i will be taking him back asap. the firemouth does OK. my question is what can i do about the stock? or what would you do? i can if needed get as much as a 20 gallon long to rehome the pair or the firemouth if possible. although im skeptical on that tank for full grown convicts, i think the female would get bullied too much. if possible id love to keep the cons as there breeding behavoir is fascinating and id like to use fry as snacks for others. but if the convicts limit me too much i would be open to getting a single wet pet like a red devil or jd but id rather add soemthing than start new. i know this is such an open ended question, but what are my options with the 75 gallon and also what could i do if i purchased a 20 gallong long? what ones would you recommend keeping/taking back and what should i replace them with? sorry for the long post, i just need some guidance. my eyes hurt from all the research i have been doing.....


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

Alright.. If I am following you right, you currently have a 75gal with a pair of Cons, a single Firemouth, and a single S. jurapari (which you will be soon getting rid of). Correct?

The pair of cons is your problem.. and will remain the problem regardless of what you stock with them. They will be pretty relentless when they have fry; which will be pretty much all the time. I think you may be yet another good candidate for a T. meeki (firemouth) species tank. I'd recommend ditching the pair of cons for a group of T. meeki; I'd aim for something like a 2m:4+f ratio. You may need to start with a larger group at first to accomplish this and then trade in the extras. Along with the T. meeki you can once again add some dithers if you'd like. Buenos Aires tetras or Giant Danios would work like you previously had, as well as livebearers such as swords and mollies.

With this setup you will get to see the parental care you enjoy, yet not deal with the hyper aggressiveness that cons so often times display when protecting fry.

This has been brought up in a couple other recent threads so be sure to look through them as well! :thumb:


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

thanks for the quick reply, yes thats what i have stocked as of now. the only problem with that is i would have nothing to do with the fry...see my hope was to have the convicts breed and have fish/or enough fish capable of picking them off and keep the population down. i enjoy the male convict moreso than the firemouth. but im sure he wouldnt be as interesting without the female? would my possibilities get much better starting with just the male convict or is he still too aggressive?


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

as i said i was given bad advice on the jurapari. in your opinion having a 20 gallon long doesnt do anything for me? convict pair wouldnt last and not good enough for the firemouth and a few dithers? basically, would it be feasible to say put the firemouth in a twenty, take back the jurapari and female con. then have the 75 with just the male con and some dithers that i could add a bigger fish to (jd for example)? i would like to try as hard as possible to keep the male con (if the pair isnt doable) and the firemouth. thats why id be willing to add a 20 gallon if thats ok long term.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

If you were to remove the female convict you'd have many more possibilities as he wouldn't be fired up 24/7 from spawning. If you want to keep the pair of cons, you could attempt to keep another pair of species in with them to try and counterbalance their aggression. Perhaps a pair of T. meeki? However, obviously nothing is *guaranteed* to work..

Check out the "cookie cutter" stocking examples in the library here: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/cookie_cutter_75g.php

In regards to your second reply, I feel a 20L is adequate for a pair of Cons (or T. meeki for that matter). Maybe be a bit on the small side once they are both fully matured but definitely doable. If you were to go this route, I'd keep a divider handy in case the male turns on the female.. which is very possible.


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

i would love to keep the pair of cons together as i really do enjoy the bredding behavoirs. but if i added another pair of something, i would then have to figure what to do with another batch of fry. i would love to have the pair with a big jd or something that would eat the fry, but it seems thats not realistic. so i guess ill have to get it down to just the male con in the 75 and decide whether or not to get a 20 long to house the firmouth in. if and when i have the single male con in the 75, with dithers etc. what would you recommend as a tankmate? as i said before i had a jd before but he got much too aggressive before the cons were big enough to stand up to him. i really did enjoy the jd though. what are your thoughts on jds or other large fish i could add? btw i remember a while ago you helped me out alot with some other questions i had, just want to say i really appreciate you taking the time to me steer me in the right direction.

btw how do i enter pics? i would like to post a few of my cons/firemouth...not sure what cons are "supposed" to look like, as there seem to be so many differant variations with cross bredding etc. but i feel like i have a real nice one, wouldnt mind some feedback.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

How to post pics and vids: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=255434

A pair of cons and a JD in a 75gal is pretty realistic in my eyes. The JD will need to be as large if not larger than the cons are currently, otherwise it'll most likely just get beat to death by the pair. If you do decide to keep only the male con in the 75gal you could keep the meeki and add a couple more cichlids depending on the species, as well as dithers.

Also, anytime you add fish to an existing setup I'd recommend you re-scape the tank to "reset" any territories that may have been established.

And no problem helping out.. that's what the forums are for! :thumb:


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

You just need another tank +) a 3ft tank around 30gal should be fine to keep the cons and then you can do whatever you want with the 75.


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

Thanks guys. I would love to be able to keep the cons together but I don't think I have the room for a 3ft tank. I really don't want to add any and still may not. I just have to weigh if it's worth having another tank just so I can keep a single firemouth or the pair together. I would keep the con pair with a jd if I could be assured that the con fry would be taken care of. But I don't even think the jd would do that under the cons watchful eyes.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

No reason why you can't simply cull the excess con fry.. they make great fertalizer. :wink:

You could also add other fish to predate on the fry such as a large school of BA tetras or a medium sized catfish such as a three lined pim or syno.


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

ok great. this is what i might do...get the 20 gallon long, cant hurt right? ill put the single firemouth in there with maybe a couple dithers. keepin the firemouth in a seperate tank will also give me another option as far as feeding the fry to... ill keep the con pair together and get a good sized male jd to join the cons in the 75. ill also add some more buenos aires tetras. (will giant danios eat fry)? i will as you said, rearrange the tank when the jd is gonna go in as to confuse the convicts. all this sound ok? any other tips?


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

Although your purposed plan can work, I'd personally use the 20L for the pair of cons. I suppose your reasoning behind keeping the cons in the 75gal is so that the fry will be eaten though, correct?


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

well i was more worried about the convicts getting along in the 20. i know you had said to just get a divider but...the convicts are not small anymore, my best guess would be the female at about 3-3.5 and the male at a solid 4. if you think that would work i will give it a shot. if i were to put the cons in there, should i return the firemouth or would it be ok with the jd? are you suggesting the cons to the 20 cause you think the cons and jd in a tank would be asking for trouble?


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

I suggested the cons in the 20L as it's simply easier to give a pair their own tank then deal with them in a community setup, regardless of species.

The Firemouth and JD should be alright together in the 75gal, however I'd add a couple more medium sized cichlids along with them to help disperse aggression.

By all means, if you want to keep the pair of cons in the 75gal, do so. You can always move them around if it doesn't work out.


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

Yeah I understand your thinking for sure. Maybe I will try putting the convicts in the 20 gallon and see how they do. Would you recommend adding the female first? And also what's the best way to set up a smallish tank like that to best avoid aggression from the male? I'll get a small jd and find another type of medium sized cichlid to go along with the firemouth giving me the 3 total in the 75. If there are too many problems with the cons I'll simply remove the female n leave the male to himself.


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)




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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

I'd create plenty of places for the female to get away from the male in the form of caves and line of sight breaks. If they are already paired, I don't think adding the female first will make much of a difference..


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)




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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)




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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

There are a few of my convict and 1 of my firemouth. Thanks for your help guys!


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

Your male con looks like a real brute! Let us know how everything works out!

Good luck! :thumb:


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

Thanks! I thought I wound up with a good one... Just gonna say my prayers for the female in the 20 gallon lol. I will keep you guys up to date, thanks for the help!


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

Keep a divider handy! It may be a good idea to divide them after they spawn regardless of their behavior towards each other. Females, even in a large tank can be harassed relentlessly by their mate. It's also good to give her a break from time to time as spawning over and over in a short period of time can really take it out of a female.


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

Will do! BTW, what is your experience on jds? I read allot of people complaining that they are very boring and lack personality. Is that true? Or is it a lack of a dither fish in those situations? If so I may have to re think the whole jd thing.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

I had a young Jack that would run the length of the tank nonstop begging for food.. it actually got annoying. With that said, I'd say the reports you've read about them being relatively boring holds true to most JD's I have seen. Once they reach a certain size they seem to just become lethargic and boring? I'd definitely say without a doubt there are better options out there..


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

I was kind of worried about that... What are some options? I like red devil but they are pretty mean correct? It would probably need the 75 to itself? Green terror, same story? Either of them be OK with just the male con and a bunch of dithers? I'd be open to a wet pet, along with a couple schools of giant danios/Buenos Aires tetras.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

A Devil or GT will need the tank completely to itself.. I'd look into smaller, less aggressive species. Maybe even consider some SA cichlid species?


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## drummerboy1248 (Dec 7, 2013)

I have housed a GT with a breeding convict pair in a 55 with success. Species behavior is general and can differ to a degree by individual. So the success of mine is no clear indicator.


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

Thanks for the input guys. As far as the convict pairs 20 gallon long tank...for filtration, is an aquaclear 30 enough or should I do a 50?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I would definitely go with a larger filter, such as the 50. On my 20 long grow out I run an AC30 and a Fluval C4.

May as well go with a 29 gallon. Same footprint as the 20 long.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> I would definitely go with a larger filter, such as the 50. On my 20 long grow out I run an AC30 and a Fluval C4.
> 
> May as well go with a 29 gallon. Same footprint as the 20 long.


+1..

Definitely go with the larger filter. And if you can swing it, as Iggy said grab a 29 instead of a 20L. More water volume is always a good thing..


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

Thanks again guys. I may still go with just the 20 but I appreciate the help. I am considering going with black sand, just as a switch from the 75 gallon. would you guys expect the convicts color to enhance our dull down because of the darker substrate?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I tried black sand once. I was not a fan. If you use very light colored scape, it can look nice I suppose. But I prefer a more natural look. Lighter substrate with darker decor. I would think a lone Convict would become darker, but that's only a guess. Certain fish do get a muddy appearance when kept over a dark substrate.

I do know that when fishing for native species their coloration can change dramatically from one spot to the next in the same body of water, depending on what type of bottom/cover they come out of. Does this ring true for cryptoheros nigrofasciata? I cannot answer that...


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

Thanks for the quick reply! I think I'll stick with my pfs, I have some leftover from my 75 gallon. I wouldn't mind a change but I don't wanna risk my fishes colors fading out...


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

What's your plan with the tanks? I can PM you a place that may have a 29 gallon available for $29.


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

Thanks actually I'm pretty sure that place is where I'll be getting my tank... The old dollar per gallon sale. Long story short, I built a cabinet the entire length of a wall (11 ft), and centered My 75 on it. Want planning on getting another tank. Now I built it pretty beefy to withstand some weight but I don't wanna push it... The extra 90-100 pounds in getting the 29 worries me a bit haha. I already have the probably 1000 lbs from the 75 gallon on there...


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

Let me ask this... With the added height of the 29. Would I be able to put a few dithers in with the convicts? The convicts do not seem to bother any of my dithers in my 75 now...also the ac50 probably wouldn't be quite good enough on its own on the 29 would it? Not really wanting to add too much more equipment


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I won't comment on dithers on the 29 due to inexperience, but having 2 filters is always nice in case of failure and additional filtration. The AC50 won't be inefficient, but having an extra HOB in the 30-50 makes a huge difference IMO. If it were a grow out tank, then no. But since it's a 'final destination' then yes to an extra filter.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

In a smaller tank, such as a 20 or 29, dithers are going to be hit or miss. I don't see too many dithers lasting in such a setup with a spawning pair of cons. Maybe try something cheap like a school of Giant Danios and see how it goes?


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

OK so I got the cons in the 20 long. They seem to be doing good. I believe they just laid eggs, I just can't see them cause they are up inside a cave... I purchased a small jack Dempsey to go in my 75 with the firemouth. You guys think I should leave it at that our ad more to it? My lfs suggested maybe a severum, rainbow or hartwegi as possibilities. You guys think those are reasonable? I see that the hartwegi gets up to a foot so I'm assuming that's out...


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

How large is your Meeki? You could try a small group of them.


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

It's actually grown at a pretty quick rate over the last month or so. I would guess He's about 3-3.5 inches and has actually become quite the little aggressor. He didn't back downfrom my con pair the last couple weeks they were with him, even during spawning. The only reason I wouldn't want a group of firemouths is I wouldn't wanna deal with more fry...


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

Here's my firemouth


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

And here's my little Dempsey, my guess is around 2-2.5 inches. normal for a small one to be tanish like that instead of black? Would they normally darken as they mature?


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

I'd definitely suggest adding at least one more cichlid, as well as some sort of dither if you haven't already. With only two cichlids in the tank all of their aggression will be focused on each other. By adding more fish, it will help spread out the aggression so no one fish gets singled out. I'd say the only reasonable choice out of the list you provided would be the Severum -- Rainbows are too docile and hartwegi get to large.


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

OK great, I was thinking along the same lines but honestly wasn't sure if even the severum would be able to handle itself. I'm a beginner when it comes to cichlid so I really appreciate you steering me in the right direction. Do you know if it's normal for dempeys to darken up as they mature?


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

Oh and I do have dithers, 4 giant danios and 4 Buenos Aires tetras. Although I would like to get a couple more of each.... So you think the 3 cichlids (firemouth, Dempsey, red spotted severum) is good? Or would you try and find one more?


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

I'd stick with those three and see how things play out..

And yes, JD's tend to darken up once they mature however a lot of it has to do with their surroundings, mood, and hierarchy in the community.


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

My only concern is that the only lfs near me that takes back fish at all, doesn't give a refund or credit towards me ones or food or anything. I've already taken a few fish back and it's starting to get expensive...I'm kind of on the fence of just letting them grow and see how it works. The firemouth seems to be more aggressive than most I have heard of, and the jd should be fine once he grows a bit. I'm at a point where I have no clue what to do. I hate getting fish and seeing them get beat on...


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## dwl0222 (Mar 6, 2011)

Especially with the fish I have been trying costing more than just a few bucks. The severums are 35. I'd hate to spend that just to have it not work. maybe I could try a male convict? A second male firemouth? (or would they just kill each other?) Is there anything else you could think of that could work? Maybe a couple silver dollars?


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