# My tropheus I have written questions about just died.



## naturlvr

So sad. Meanwhile my 30 cichlids, who some are starting to show the same symptoms, are waiting for the Clout to get here but it will not arrive until Friday. Meanwhile a friend told me to turn off the tank lights until it comes and do not feed them and keep their temp steady with no ups and downs. I will do a 50% water change tomorrow. I really would hate to lose my beautiful collections of Cichilds!

I have read the excellent article on bloating and immediately ordered the Clout.


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## naturlvr

Also I am having a horrible time keeping my ph up to 8 even....I have gone thru 2 bottles of PH (up) by API in a couple of weeks. And I have Cichlid substrate and holy rock galore in the 75 gallon tank.


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## Deeda

Sorry for your loss!

What is the pH of your tap water both immediately out of the tap and after a 24 hour off gassing wait?

I would avoid using any pH up or down product because they are costly. IF you really need to adjust pH, take a look in the C-F Library for the Buffer recipe using baking soda and Epsom salts.


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## naturlvr

Deeda said:


> Sorry for your loss!
> 
> What is the pH of your tap water both immediately out of the tap and after a 24 hour off gassing wait?
> 
> I would avoid using any pH up or down product because they are costly. IF you really need to adjust pH, take a look in the C-F Library for the Buffer recipe using baking soda and Epsom salts.


 Deeda oh thank you! the ph of my water out of the spigot is 7.5. I do not know what the value is if left on its own after 24 hrs.


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## DJRansome

Sorry for your loss. Let us know what it is after 24 hours.


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## naturlvr

DJRansome said:


> Sorry for your loss. Let us know what it is after 24 hours.


OK I will do that.


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## naturlvr

naturlvr said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for your loss. Let us know what it is after 24 hours.
> 
> 
> 
> OK I will do that.
Click to expand...

Sorry the tap water is 7.38 today.


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## naturlvr

Today the tap water is 7.52 after a day of exposure to air. ...yesterday the tap water was 7.38


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## Deeda

I don't see any reason to try and adjust your tap water at all, a pH of 7.5 is just fine unless you are keeping wild caught fish that need a higher pH. If that was the case, you can gradually ease them from a higher pH to your tap water over a couple weeks.


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## naturlvr

Deeda said:


> I don't see any reason to try and adjust your tap water at all, a pH of 7.5 is just fine unless you are keeping wild caught fish that need a higher pH. If that was the case, you can gradually ease them from a higher pH to your tap water over a couple weeks.


Really? Ok that would save me a lot of money!


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## naturlvr

The people who sold me my fish have suggested this: https://www.marinedepot.com/Seachem_Lab ... gJiuvD_BwE

the Clout will not arrive here until Friday.


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## naturlvr

Right now an experienced friend has suggested I turn off the lights to encourage rest and also no feeding.


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## Deeda

Sorry I've never had to use any medications on my fish so can't provide personal experience. However, check out the Bloat article in the C-F library if you haven't already done so.

Usually I suggest using Epsom salt to get started at a dosage of 1 Tablespoon per 5 gallons of water as this helps to purge intestines. I would not stop feeding as long as the fish are eating.


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## DJRansome

The fish never need lights so you can do that.

If the fish are eating, none of them have bloat as yet.

You can use clout or Metroplex (because is has some metronidazole in it) but not both. If you can get the metroplex today that might help.

For a confirmed bloat diagnosis I prefer straight metronidazole but it will take you another 2 days and overnight delivery expense to get it.

Since this is preventive, maybe do the Epsom salts for now and the clout when it arrives?

Also with 30 fish in a 75G (it is a 75G right?) once you survive the current crisis, consider making some changes to stock.


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## ken31cay

naturlvr said:


> The people who sold me my fish have suggested this: https://www.marinedepot.com/Seachem_Lab ... gJiuvD_BwE
> 
> the Clout will not arrive here until Friday.


I didn't read your other posts on the topic; are you sure your fish have bloat?

About two weeks after I received my first order of haps/peacocks about six of them had bloat. The first one presented the end stage massive swelling and died, but I was able to treat the others while they were still at the stage of not eating/spitting out food. I called my supplier and he recommended Metroplex (Metronidazole) and Clout, both of which I had on hand. He warned me Clout was a stronger treatment and would be hard on my already weakened fish, therefore better to treat with Metro if possible.

I followed the instructions for the dosage/treatment on the package, no feeding during treatment and after treatment is completed wait a few days before feeding a little. I followed the instructions for the water changes, but did an extra 75% water change right before I started treatment, and another extra one at the end. My other fish survived and grown from 2 inches to 5-7 inches now and doing well.

Since my water is r/o my recipe includes 1 cup epsom salt per 20 gallons, so my tank water always has plenty of epsom salt.

HTH


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## ken31cay

PS. I treated with Metroplex. I planned on treating with Clout if the Metro didn't work, but there was no need.


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## naturlvr

DJRansome said:


> The fish never need lights so you can do that.
> 
> If the fish are eating, none of them have bloat as yet.
> 
> You can use clout or Metroplex (because is has some metronidazole in it) but not both. If you can get the metroplex today that might help.
> 
> For a confirmed bloat diagnosis I prefer straight metronidazole but it will take you another 2 days and overnight delivery expense to get it.
> 
> Since this is preventive, maybe do the Epsom salts for now and the clout when it arrives?
> 
> Also with 30 fish in a 75G (it is a 75G right?) once you survive the current crisis, consider making some changes to stock.


You are correct in your assumptions. But all my fish are babies so still mostly small but I intend to transfer them to a larger tank when they get bigger. At least transfer 50% to a large tank when the time comes. It gives me time to adjust and them too. I will check the metro.....as far as confirmed diagnosis..I did not take the baby to a vet so I cannot confirm. About 2 weeks after he arrived he went from having a voracious appetite to no eating and white poop so I thought that is what killed him. then I read that all exposed fish have to be treated. I am feeling a bit confused that all my assumptions about water quality and needing a ph of at least 8 and temp of 82 to 85 were wrong. I hear conflicting info and it scares me because I do not want my fish to die because I did not heed their symptoms. Most all my fish now are pale and some not eating. Of course now I am not feeding them. What to do?


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## naturlvr

Does this sound like a reasonable price for clout? that is what I paid because I want to save my fish
https://www.ebay.com/p/Fritz-Aquatics-M ... 2166261543


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## naturlvr

DJRansome said:


> The fish never need lights so you can do that.
> 
> If the fish are eating, none of them have bloat as yet.
> 
> You can use clout or Metroplex (because is has some metronidazole in it) but not both. If you can get the metroplex today that might help.
> 
> For a confirmed bloat diagnosis I prefer straight metronidazole but it will take you another 2 days and overnight delivery expense to get it.
> 
> Since this is preventive, maybe do the Epsom salts for now and the clout when it arrives?
> 
> Also with 30 fish in a 75G (it is a 75G right?) once you survive the current crisis, consider making some changes to stock.


 So since some are not eating should I treat all? And can I still feed them all?


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## DJRansome

More fish are killed from wrong meds than no meds.

Are you sure the tropheus died of bloat? Did he have clear or white feces...thin and thready? You said white poop, so we can go with that.

Treat them all.

Choose one source of advice and go with it...you are not likely to get the same advice from everyone.

How big are your fish (including tail)? Unless then are one inch or less they are not babies. It is unusual for fry to get bloat.

For today (assume you feed 1X daily) do the Epsom salts and feed. Carefully note each fish that eats and each fish that does not.

Fry are pretty much all pale always. Adults that have color and then lose it can be illness or dominance.

Does that help?

Your nitrates are < 20ppm and everything else is zero?


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## naturlvr

Also two Hap Sp "All Red Kyoga" that have bubbly blisters on the skin.


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## DJRansome

Oy. Get them out and into a hospital tank. Can you send close-up clear pictures?


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## naturlvr

Here are the fish in my 75 gallon tank..again they are young and smaller: (PS the tank has lots of rocky caves.)
Demasoni Cichlid 4
Electric yellow 4
Socolofi
Labeotropheus Ochre
Williamsi Makonde Blue Lips
Snow White 2
Textilus
Saulosi Taiwan Reef
Hap Sp. "All Red Kyoga" 2
Lethrinops Marginatus
Taiwan Reef Cichlid
Mylochromis Plagiotaenia
Azureus Cichlid
Red Blaze Lithobates
Gold Head Compressiceps
Super Red Empress Cichlid
Red Fin Compressiceps
Albino Strawberry Peacock Aulonocara African Cichlid 
Blue Eye Lemon Bristlenose Plecostomus Ancistrus
Reuben Peacock "Ruby" Aulonocara African Cichlid 
Pseudotropheus sp. Elongatus "Ruarwe","Jewel Spot" Mbuna, Malawi African CichlidMelanochromis auratus,


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## naturlvr

DJRansome said:


> Oy. Get them out and into a hospital tank. Can you send close-up clear pictures?


 I only have a 10 gallon tank that I put the Tropheus in.
Can I treat them all in the 75 gallon? I will try to take pics...SOME are considerably pale from normal.


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## naturlvr

I copied and answered each question with "***"


DJRansome said:


> More fish are killed from wrong meds than no meds. **** UGH a tough decision for sure.
> 
> Are you sure the tropheus died of bloat? Did he have clear or white feces...thin and thready? You said white poop, so we can go with that. **** White poop ..not real thready..kinda blotchy on the bottom of the glass.
> 
> Treat them all.
> 
> Choose one source of advice and go with it...you are not likely to get the same advice from everyone.
> 
> How big are your fish (including tail)? Unless then are one inch or less they are not babies. It is unusual for fry to get bloat. **** No they are not fry..they are 1.5 to 2.5 inches
> 
> For today (assume you feed 1X daily) do the Epsom salts and feed. Carefully note each fish that eats and each fish that does not. *** I will thanks
> 
> Fry are pretty much all pale always. Adults that have color and then lose it can be illness or dominance. **** I bought my fish in waves of three groups about 2-3 in-between each wave.
> 
> Does that help?
> 
> Your nitrates are < 20ppm and everything else is zero?


 ********my Nitrates have stayed around 40 KH and GH are about 200 ppm
I will tell you about the fish in the pics in another post.


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## naturlvr




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## naturlvr

This is my dead fish in the net


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## naturlvr

This is my 75 gallon tank with lots of rock caves


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## naturlvr

This is the Red Blaze Lithobates who hast lost color..his face was completely blue and the body color was coming in great..but now paler.
Behind him is a Williamsi Makonde Blue Lips but his lips are not very blue anymore


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## naturlvr

This is a Hap Sp. "All Red Kyoga" with a few white patches that have come up. Also his skin looks a bit bubbly to me in certain light.


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## naturlvr

This is a Pseudotropheus sp. Elongatus "Ruarwe","Jewel Spot" Mbuna, Malawi African Cichlid who normally look blacker.


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## naturlvr

These two are Williamsi Makonde Blue Lips. The one on the bottom is dominant as you can see by his richer color. they both have lost most of the blue on their lips in the last few days.


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## naturlvr

This is the Labeotropheus Ochre who is a brick red until the past few days.


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## naturlvr

This is the Textilus who has lost most of the blue stripes.


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## naturlvr

So I ordered the Metroplex just now which will arrive tomorrow...sooner than Clout. I ordered two since I could not find out what size tank it went up to..mine is 75 gallon.


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## DJRansome

These fish are not babies. We need a clearer picture of the blisters. The fish with blisters may have something different and be contagious to the rest of the fish. Bloat does not cause blisters or any skin issues.


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## ken31cay

naturlvr said:


> So I ordered the Metroplex just now which will arrive tomorrow...sooner than Clout. I ordered two since I could not find out what size tank it went up to..mine is 75 gallon.


The time I treated with this I used the 5g packages. Instructions are to use 1-2 scoops per 10 gal every other day for 3 weeks. Each 5g package has 40 scoops. If you purchased two of these then you should have enough to do the minimum dosage (1 scoop/10gal). I used 2 scoops per 10 gal when I treated.

But you should make sure your fish have bloat. Far better not to treat, than to treat with the wrong meds. In my years of fish keeping I would say I've had better success helping sick fish recover by keeping their environment very clean and treating with (Kosher) salt in the water (in this case it would be epsom salt), than by treating with meds.


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## naturlvr

ken31cay said:


> naturlvr said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I ordered the Metroplex just now which will arrive tomorrow...sooner than Clout. I ordered two since I could not find out what size tank it went up to..mine is 75 gallon.
> 
> 
> 
> The time I treated with this I used the 5g packages. Instructions are to use 1-2 scoops per 10 gal every other day for 3 weeks. Each 5g package has 40 scoops. If you purchased two of these then you should have enough to do the minimum dosage (1 scoop/10gal). I used 2 scoops per 10 gal when I treated.
> 
> But you should make sure your fish have bloat. Far better not to treat, than to treat with the wrong meds. In my years of fish keeping I would say I've had better success helping sick fish recover by keeping their environment very clean and treating with (Kosher) salt in the water (in this case it would be epsom salt), than by treating with meds.
Click to expand...

 Thanks Ken for the response. My fish that died had white thin poop and had stopped eating...do you think that is not enough evidence to treat for this contagious disease?


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## naturlvr

DJRansome said:


> These fish are not babies. We need a clearer picture of the blisters. The fish with blisters may have something different and be contagious to the rest of the fish. Bloat does not cause blisters or any skin issues.


You will have to forgive me for calling them babies. I am 68 and I call all young people babies even if they can walk.

I cannot give you anymore info that I have. It was exhausting to me to put all the pics out with explanations, in fact this whole thing has been too exhausting and I feel sure that with the white poop and no eating that this is proof enough.

I want the very best thing for all my living creatures. Now I will have to decide myself after spending time and so much money on meds that are not here yet...whether I will go ahead and treat them or not. They could die either way according to what i am hearing from this board of people.

Thanks for all your input.


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## ken31cay

naturlvr said:


> ken31cay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> naturlvr said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I ordered the Metroplex just now which will arrive tomorrow...sooner than Clout. I ordered two since I could not find out what size tank it went up to..mine is 75 gallon.
> 
> 
> 
> The time I treated with this I used the 5g packages. Instructions are to use 1-2 scoops per 10 gal every other day for 3 weeks. Each 5g package has 40 scoops. If you purchased two of these then you should have enough to do the minimum dosage (1 scoop/10gal). I used 2 scoops per 10 gal when I treated.
> 
> But you should make sure your fish have bloat. Far better not to treat, than to treat with the wrong meds. In my years of fish keeping I would say I've had better success helping sick fish recover by keeping their environment very clean and treating with (Kosher) salt in the water (in this case it would be epsom salt), than by treating with meds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks Ken for the response. My fish that died had white thin poop and had stopped eating...do you think that is not enough evidence to treat for this contagious disease?
Click to expand...

Was the fish that died also swelled up/bloated to almost twice their original size? Even though I don't have tons of experience with bloat, if the fish wasn't swelled then I would say it was not bloat. Another thing that my fish with bloat all did in the early stage was frequently take in food then spit it right back out.

Regarding the white poop, this is also a symptom of Hexamita which is a different fish illness. I'd also say that when fish have most any sickness or even stress they will stop eating.


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## naturlvr

Thanks Ken for the response.

I am not sure where to go from here. I sent a pic of him dead and his belly looks swollen in the pic but I do not recall seeing him alive with an abnormal belly or popped eyes. I am a nurse but not a fish vet nor do I have much experience with fish enough to say I know what to do. That is why this room is so valuable with the input of others. I have spent a lot of time trying to save my baby fish..ok my 1 and 1/2 inch young male lol. I am exhausted and confused now. I meant this to be fun but so far it has been hugely stressful with a bit of fun.


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## ken31cay

I know you're seeking direction; I'd advise you to single out the responses from the moderators. Aside from that, you may not get all the help you need from the responses on this forum or even another fish forum. At least not in the time you need to. In the past when I've dealt with fish sickness I've needed to either search the forums archives and find the answers myself, or find the answers using google search from multiple sights. I hope this helps, and I wish you luck with all of this.


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## naturlvr

ken31cay said:


> I know you're seeking direction; I'd advise you to single out the responses from the moderators. Aside from that, you may not get all the help you need from the responses on this forum or even another fish forum. At least not in the time you need to. In the past when I've dealt with fish sickness I've needed to either search the forums archives and find the answers myself, or find the answers using google search from multiple sights. I hope this helps, and I wish you luck with all of this.


Thank you for understanding.


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## DJRansome

I have treated bloat several times with success. Although some bloated fish do have the popped eyes and "bloated" appearance, this is not a reliable symptom. They can just as likely waste away with a concave belly. It is an intestinal blockage caused by an organism that multiplies when the immune system is compromised.

If the tropheus had the white feces, I'd go with the bloat diagnosis. Tropheus is a fish that is VERY susceptible to bloat. I've never had hex...I thought it was more of a SA or CA disease.

Sorry you are being hit with too much information, and hope all goes well for your fish recovery.

The fact that the fish are adults (indicated by size and confirmed by the level of color in the pictures) makes a difference in how they might have gotten the disease and how you might prevent future breakouts once you recover from this one. More of a science thing.


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## ken31cay

RE: "Hap Sp "All Red Kyoga" that have bubbly blisters" that you mentioned: this makes me think these Kyoga might be suffering from a 2nd condition. A few posts above this one DJ requested a better photo of the blisters. If these symptoms are still present I think it would be a good idea to try and get this, when you are able to.


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## naturlvr

I have decided after all the great advice to do nothing and wait to see if anyone has symptoms that show there is something clearly wrong in the tank still.


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## naturlvr

Here are some pics of the "bubbles" under the skin. You can see the skin directly behind the eye and above the gill.

Is this normal? I hope you say yes. Otherwise as I mentioned...I am going to do nothing to medicate them for Bloat unless I see the same white feces in another fish.


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## naturlvr

another view


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## Kipnlilo

It sounds to me like you have what is called "gas bubble disease". It's really not a disease, more a condition of your water. No meds needed. My suggestions will not harm your fish. How your fish recover from this will depend on how long it has had the condition.
1. Add more aeration/airstone for now.
2. As others have mentioned, quit messing with the ph, it's fine from the tap.
3. Do a 50% water change. Be sure your water temp going in during water changes is within one or two degrees of tank water temp and use seachem prime or something similar dosed for the whole tank when adding water.
4. Check your filtration hoses/lines to be sure none are sucking air. This causes gas embolisms.


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## naturlvr

Kipnlilo said:


> It sounds to me like you have what is called "gas bubble disease". It's really not a disease, more a condition of your water. No meds needed. My suggestions will not harm your fish. How your fish recover from this will depend on how long it has had the condition.
> 1. Add more aeration/airstone for now.
> 2. As others have mentioned, quit messing with the ph, it's fine from the tap.
> 3. Do a 50% water change. Be sure your water temp going in during water changes is within one or two degrees of tank water temp and use seachem prime or something similar dosed for the whole tank when adding water.
> 4. Check your filtration hoses/lines to be sure none are sucking air. This causes gas embolisms.


I never knew of this problem but then I do not know a lot about fish. Think I will go purchase another air pump. Thank you Kip.


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## DJRansome

Let us know when/if you are ready to move on to addressing the loss of color.


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## naturlvr

DJRansome said:


> Let us know when/if you are ready to move on to addressing the loss of color.


Lay it on me. :lol:


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## DJRansome

Stocking decisions. Do you want all male or mixed gender? And do you want mbuna, haps and peacocks, or Tanganyikans?

What size tank will you be getting and how soon? Even in a 72" tank for all-male (max variety) I like 18 males.

Fish that get along well are brightly colored and stay healthy for the most part.

Read the all-male article in the Cichlid-forum Library for pros and cons.


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## naturlvr

DJRansome said:


> Stocking decisions. Do you want all male or mixed gender? And do you want mbuna, haps and peacocks, or Tanganyikans?
> 
> What size tank will you be getting and how soon? Even in a 72" tank for all-male (max variety) I like 18 males.
> 
> Fish that get along well are brightly colored and stay healthy for the most part.
> 
> Read the all-male article in the Cichlid-forum Library for pros and cons.


I have a 75 gallon tank at present that is housing all my fish. I have too many fish in the tank when they grow larger but by then I will get a larger tank and put some of them in there and leave some in this one. I have fish from all the Lakes and they all get along great except for the Williamsi Blue Lips (2) and probably the male All Red Kyogas (2) will not want another male being around..by then I can separate them with another tank. And the Snow Whites who could not be sexed have territorial issues and I will separate them when the time comes. Everyone else gets along great and were doing good until all this changing of water and rocks etc got them stressed. I have been too active in getting the tank in better shape. I also changed the substrate to sand and Cichlid mixture....which they love but still it is stressful because of the drastic change. There are so many caves in my rock pile that everyone has a safe place.

I wanted an all male tank but some species look the same color etc between male and female so I have to wait and see. Whenever I could, I only ordered male fish. I have been pleased with the quality of all my fish. My fish were starting to color up ( the ones who had little color when I got them) before all the drama for the last two weeks. That is why I was concerned about them being pale..I feel guilty for stressing them. I suppose changing to a substrate that is almost white can make them look more washed out? I don't know but I know they were happy before I started trying to fix things. Thankfully there will not be a need for such dramatic changes now that I have done what I wanted to do. And also ...I ordered in waves of three so as not to shock the balance of the tank water but also to get them all around the same time. There was 3 weeks between the waves.

Since I have about 36 fish..if I half them when I get another tank that will closely approximate your number of 18. I had a few fish die right at the start due to my own mishap but this last one I did not expect until I read how they bloat easily and then for sure he did bloat. 

So anything you can help me to get my fish healthy and very happy will make me very happy.

Here is the list:
Here are the fish in my 75 gallon tank..again they are young and smaller: (PS the tank has lots of rocky caves.)
Demasoni Cichlid 4
Electric yellow 4
Socolofi
Labeotropheus Ochre
Williamsi Makonde Blue Lips
Snow White 2
Textilus
Saulosi Taiwan Reef
Hap Sp. "All Red Kyoga" 2
Lethrinops Marginatus
Taiwan Reef Cichlid
Mylochromis Plagiotaenia
Azureus Cichlid
Red Blaze Lithobates
Gold Head Compressiceps
Super Red Empress Cichlid
Red Fin Compressiceps
Albino Strawberry Peacock Aulonocara African Cichlid 
Blue Eye Lemon Bristlenose Plecostomus Ancistrus
Reuben Peacock "Ruby" Aulonocara African Cichlid 
Pseudotropheus sp. Elongatus "Ruarwe","Jewel Spot" Mbuna, Malawi African CichlidMelanochromis auratus,
VC-10
and a beautiful cichlid algae eater bristle-nose


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## naturlvr

I mean 31 fish (ands there are 2 Williamsi Blue Lips)


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## naturlvr

OH NO another one has died. He was around the rock at the bottom floating. This looks like the one of the two Hap SP "Red Kyoga" that I felt was not eating. Because there I have two, I could not follow him after I initially saw him not eating at feeding time. Also several of them are flashing. this confirms my fears but neither of my meds have been delivered yet. Do I start wit the BIG GUN ...Clout? Or do I start with Metroplex?


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## DJRansome

Metroplex.


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## DJRansome

You want to split up your fish when they start to color...not when they are six inches or even three inches.

Food for thought: 2 tanks, one all-male and one mixed gender mbuna.

For now best of luck with the medication.


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## naturlvr

DJRansome said:


> You want to split up your fish when they start to color...not when they are six inches or even three inches.
> 
> Food for thought: 2 tanks, one all-male and one mixed gender mbuna.
> 
> For now best of luck with the medication.


One orange one has a big belly..I will video it. Worried about bloat. I found out that three of my 4 Electric yellows are female and two are now full of babies in their mouth. Maybe causing some tank issues for the others?

To medicate or not to medicate? This is exhausting. I will try to upload videos so you can see them and I hope to God someone sees something that can be helped. They are also flashing. A friend pof mine is going to take the females because they think it was causing the issues.


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## DJRansome

Medicate.

Rehoming fish is a good idea, and females is a good place to start.


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## naturlvr

Im just going to get a 150 gallon tank and just pray that is what is needed.


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## naturlvr

DJRansome said:


> Medicate.
> 
> Rehoming fish is a good idea, and females is a good place to start.


OK I will medicate because of the flashing and another dead fish. Will this affect the female mouthbrooders? I have a friend who will take the females for me.


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## DJRansome

By rehoming the females you are starting to remove stress from the tank and this will also help stop the cause of the illness so this does not happen again after they are cured.

A 72" tank (does not have to be 150G) for the 18 males and the existing 75G for the mixed gender mbuna sounds like a plan.


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## naturlvr

DJRansome said:


> By rehoming the females you are starting to remove stress from the tank and this will also help stop the cause of the illness so this does not happen again after they are cured.
> 
> A 72" tank (does not have to be 150G) for the 18 males and the existing 75G for the mixed gender mbuna sounds like a plan.


I am looking to get a 125 gallon tank 6 feet long so there is ample room to swim.

I will get the females who are carrying babies out of the tank before I medicate it. I am giving them to a friend and they will be in an isolation tank till they seem fine.

( I was wanting a tank for tropheus and one for shell dwellers...so many wishes lol..so little room lol.)


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## ken31cay

naturlvr said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> 
> By rehoming the females you are starting to remove stress from the tank and this will also help stop the cause of the illness so this does not happen again after they are cured.
> 
> A 72" tank (does not have to be 150G) for the 18 males and the existing 75G for the mixed gender mbuna sounds like a plan.
> 
> 
> 
> I am looking to get a 125 gallon tank 6 feet long so there is ample room to swim.
> 
> I will get the females who are carrying babies out of the tank before I medicate it. I am giving them to a friend and they will be in an isolation tank till they seem fine.
> 
> ( I was wanting a tank for tropheus and one for shell dwellers...so many wishes lol..so little room lol.)
Click to expand...

Nice, good for you. Fish deaths happen to everyone. You have some beautiful fish there, I hope you enjoy your tank(s).


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## naturlvr

ken31cay said:


> naturlvr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> 
> By rehoming the females you are starting to remove stress from the tank and this will also help stop the cause of the illness so this does not happen again after they are cured.
> 
> A 72" tank (does not have to be 150G) for the 18 males and the existing 75G for the mixed gender mbuna sounds like a plan.
> 
> 
> 
> I am looking to get a 125 gallon tank 6 feet long so there is ample room to swim.
> 
> I will get the females who are carrying babies out of the tank before I medicate it. I am giving them to a friend and they will be in an isolation tank till they seem fine.
> 
> ( I was wanting a tank for tropheus and one for shell dwellers...so many wishes lol..so little room lol.)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nice, good for you. Fish deaths happen to everyone. You have some beautiful fish there, I hope you enjoy your tank(s).
Click to expand...

Thanks for the support and wishes Ken! I just saw some white stringy poop on another fish..and the Metroplex just arrived. Good timing.


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## naturlvr

I have a fluval fx 4 filter. I am getting ready to use the metroplex...it says remove carbon and purigen from filter. I do not know id this type of filter uses purigen and I don't know what it looks like.


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## Deeda

If you didn't buy Purigen or it didn't come with the filter than nothing to worry about. Purigen looks like small white/tan beads and is used in a very fine mesh bag.


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## naturlvr

I cannot catch my fish even trying to make the area smaller they elude me and my net is small. I am afraid I will hurt them and stress them to death.


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## DJRansome

When you need to net fish you do a partial water change (giving them only 1/2 the water to escape) and remove the décor, then use 2 large nets.

I have never had a fish die or even be overly stressed by being netted.

You are not removing holding females for the safety of the eggs...you are removing females (all?) to reduce stress in the tank and enable the lower nitrates that will keep them healthier.


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## naturlvr

DJRansome said:


> When you need to net fish you do a partial water change (giving them only 1/2 the water to escape) and remove the décor, then use 2 large nets.
> 
> I have never had a fish die or even be overly stressed by being netted.
> 
> You are not removing holding females for the safety of the eggs...you are removing females (all?) to reduce stress in the tank and enable the lower nitrates that will keep them healthier.


Darn lol I just bought a bigger net not two, but I will try to lure them with the smaller net into a bigger one. At least I was thinking like you...I reduced the water level but I need to reduce it to half. I am removing the females that I know at this point are females.


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## naturlvr

Whew! I got the females out and the carbon out of the Fluval FX4 which is a daunting task! Now on the the metroplex.


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## ken31cay

All of these fish keeping related tasks will get much easier with practice as time goes on. I'm sure you know this. Best of luck with the treatment.


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## naturlvr

ken31cay said:


> All of these fish keeping related tasks will get much easier with practice as time goes on. I'm sure you know this. Best of luck with the treatment.


Ken I am looking forward to less deaths and sickness. I love to look at them!


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## ken31cay

You'll get there for sure. Hopefully you'll get a handle on this illness before too many more deaths and you can start enjoying them. If you're new to fish keeping there's alot to learn before getting comfortable. Most fish keepers here have been keeping fish for many years. I recently switched to africans from south american cichlids about a year ago so still learning how to care for these beautiful fish. But I've had aquariums on and off for 35+ years since I was a teen. There's so much to be learned so I recommend you read all the articles on this site as you can, plus other info on the web.


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## naturlvr

ken31cay said:


> You'll get there for sure. Hopefully you'll get a handle on this illness before too many more deaths and you can start enjoying them. If you're new to fish keeping there's alot to learn before getting comfortable. Most fish keepers here have been keeping fish for many years. I recently switched to africans from South American cichlids about a year ago so still learning how to care for these beautiful fish. But I've had aquariums on and off for 35+ years since I was a teen. There's so much to be learned so I recommend you read all the articles on this site as you can, plus other info on the web.


Ken I am just curious what made you switch to African Cichlids? Personally I think they are the most interesting and their personality is fun watch but I love the awesome beauty of the South American fish too. I just heard they are even harder to keep alive. I will also say that after catching, or chasing my fish today...They are very FAST and SMART!


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## ken31cay

Before my current tanks I kept Discus fish for almost 2 years, though I had more than a few years keeping other south american & central american cichlids when I was younger. Discus are stunningly beautiful but labor intensive, needing frequent water changes, and require keeping precise water parameters intact more than any fish I've kept. I learned alot during that time. But growing Discus to their maximum beauty, and keeping them not only alive but thriving (when they're at their most beautiful) limits your aquarium setup - only in bare bottom (no substrate) tanks is this truly successful over time. This is my experience and is an opinion shared by long term keepers.

But I've enjoyed keeping africans much more than my time keeping Discus. The lower maintenance is a big reason; weekly water changes/tank maintenance with africans is like a walk in the park compared to when I kept Discus. Another reason is how fully I can decorate the tank with africans - substrate, rocks, etc., to create a nice habitat, which isn't possible with Discus long-term unless you can be satisfied with sub-standard looking fish/unhealthy fish.


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## Kipnlilo

How's the blistering coming since the water change/changes and increased aeration? Did you find any hoses sucking air in your filtration? I'm glad you got your meds in and rehoming. Your heading in the right direction. Keep your head up.


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## naturlvr

ken31cay said:


> Before my current tanks I kept Discus fish for almost 2 years, though I had more than a few years keeping other south american & central american cichlids when I was younger. Discus are stunningly beautiful but labor intensive, needing frequent water changes, and require keeping precise water parameters intact more than any fish I've kept. I learned alot during that time. But growing Discus to their maximum beauty, and keeping them not only alive but thriving (when they're at their most beautiful) limits your aquarium setup - only in bare bottom (no substrate) tanks is this truly successful over time. This is my experience and is an opinion shared by long term keepers.
> 
> But I've enjoyed keeping africans much more than my time keeping Discus. The lower maintenance is a big reason; weekly water changes/tank maintenance with africans is like a walk in the park compared to when I kept Discus. Another reason is how fully I can decorate the tank with africans - substrate, rocks, etc., to create a nice habitat, which isn't possible with Discus long-term unless you can be satisfied with sub-standard looking fish/unhealthy fish.


Ken that's why I like them too..the Cichlids, because as an artist and nature lover, I love to create beautiful environments and there are so many possibilities. You really had to have a lot of patience and willingness to learn to raise those Discus.

I am so happy that I was given a name of someone who makes wonderful tanks and makes them to the size etc that you want for a reasonable price. So I am getting a 240 gallon tank with sump...high tech setup. It is going to be beautiful and far less work for me and save money too on all the stuff i used to buy.


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## naturlvr

Kipnlilo said:


> How's the blistering coming since the water change/changes and increased aeration? Did you find any hoses sucking air in your filtration? I'm glad you got your meds in and rehoming. Your heading in the right direction. Keep your head up.


That fish with the blisters died..but everyone else is good and removing the females really helped the tense atmosphere too. 
I also added more aeration.

I am getting a 240 gallon tank with sump..that should greatly help with space.


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## Kipnlilo

naturlvr said:


> Kipnlilo said:
> 
> 
> 
> How's the blistering coming since the water change/changes and increased aeration? Did you find any hoses sucking air in your filtration? I'm glad you got your meds in and rehoming. Your heading in the right direction. Keep your head up.
> 
> 
> 
> That fish with the blisters died..but everyone else is good and removing the females really helped the tense atmosphere too.
> I also added more aeration.
> 
> I am getting a 240 gallon tank with sump..that should greatly help with space.
Click to expand...

Wow! A 240. Now I'm jealous. Lol! I just dont have the space for one at the moment. I think you will like the sump.


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## naturlvr

LOL I am replacing the TV space with this tank. The TV is being pushed to the side..where it rightfully belongs. I would rather watch fish and all my other animals.


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## ken31cay

naturlvr said:


> You really had to have a lot of patience and willingness to learn to raise those Discus.


After the fist six weeks and realizing what Discus keeping actually required I think it became more of a challenge more than anything else. I wanted to be successful at it. My wife thought I was crazy but in time I think admired my commitment.



> I am so happy that I was given a name of someone who makes wonderful tanks and makes them to the size etc that you want for a reasonable price. So I am getting a 240 gallon tank with sump...high tech setup. It is going to be beautiful and far less work for me and save money too on all the stuff i used to buy.


240gal -- that is awesome. The bigger the better I honestly think. In my 450gal there is virtually no aggression and It is a beautiful thing. The fish I have in there, I know would kill each other even in my 180gal because I already went through it in that tank.


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## ken31cay

naturlvr said:


> LOL I am replacing the TV space with this tank. The TV is being pushed to the side..where it rightfully belongs. I would rather watch fish and all my other animals.


LoL ain't it true.


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## naturlvr

I started the metroplex and am six days into it. I am not sure if you are supposed to change the water in-between doses. I have not and today one fish died. Anyone have an idea how often you are to change water while medicating? I do not see it on the instructions.


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## naturlvr

WOW :-? looks like bloat and this is after 6 days of treating with Metroplex.


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## ken31cay

From Seachem's support forums:
https://www.seachem.com/support/forums/ ... r-hexamita

From what I'm reading it appears water changes are advised not to aid the treatment but to make sure your water parameters stay intact, i.e., be aware of potential ammonia buildup. When I treated I changed 50% water every other day right before redosing.


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## naturlvr

ken31cay said:


> From Seachem's support forums:
> https://www.seachem.com/support/forums/ ... r-hexamita
> 
> From what I'm reading it appears water changes are advised not to aid the treatment but to make sure your water parameters stay intact, i.e., be aware of potential ammonia buildup. When I treated I changed 50% water every other day right before redosing.


Thank you Ken. I have a strawberry peacock getting ready to be sick because she is hovering around the heater. I went to a Cichlid "show" recently and one person told me to put something (I wish I could remember the name of it) into a hose stocking and secure the top and put it in the tank and it would take away ammonia fast.
I will do the water changes every other day...thanks.
Sure will be glad when the 240 tank is made.


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## DJRansome

She is there because she is being harassed. The intimidated fish can develop a compromised immune system and can end up being the root cause of your bloat epidemic. Can you isolate her in a hospital tank? Put her in a breeder net?

Do you have ammonia? That (killing your beneficial bacteria) is not a side effect of metroplex that I am aware of. Clout yes...metroplex no.


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## naturlvr

DJRansome said:


> She is there because she is being harassed. The intimidated fish can develop a compromised immune system and can end up being the root cause of your bloat epidemic. Can you isolate her in a hospital tank? Put her in a breeder net?
> 
> Do you have ammonia? That (killing your beneficial bacteria) is not a side effect of metroplex that I am aware of. Clout yes...metroplex no.


This is a male...I removed my 3 Electric Yellow females. I try to only buy male but sometimes you cannot tell till later. The tank is fairly calm since I rehomed my females.


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## DJRansome

Same goes for males who hover around heaters.


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## Kipnlilo

I agree with DJ. The Strawberry is being harassed more than likely. Stress/constant harassment in a tank is linked to illness for sure. Just curious as to how you are administering the Metroplex? If they are still eating, the best way I've found is to stir/dissolve it in just enough liquid that your pellets will soak it all up within 5 minutes. I prefer garlic guard, but you can use tank water. Metroplex is good medication, I've used it Focus and Kanaplex for different situations with good results.


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## naturlvr

DJRansome said:


> Same goes for males who hover around heaters.


 DJ I am having a 240 gallon tank built for them but it is not here right now. I do not know how else to keep them from being stressed at the moment. I have plenty of rock caves for hiding. Trying to keep the water clean etc.I think I know who is causing it..a fish who is the same color but a different species. I also do not have a hospital tank and that is something I need to work and get now.


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## naturlvr

Kipnlilo said:


> I agree with DJ. The Strawberry is being harassed more than likely. Stress/constant harassment in a tank is linked to illness for sure. Just curious as to how you are administering the Metroplex? If they are still eating, the best way I've found is to stir/dissolve it in just enough liquid that your pellets will soak it all up within 5 minutes. I prefer garlic guard, but you can use tank water. Metroplex is good medication, I've used it Focus and Kanaplex for different situations with good results.


 Kipnlilo I am spooning it into the tank. I wasn't keen on the idea of putting it into their food since I have over 30 fish in there..afraid not everyone would get a dose. What pellets are you speaking of? Should I put some mashed garlic in the tank?


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## DJRansome

naturlvr said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> 
> Same goes for males who hover around heaters.
> 
> 
> 
> DJ I am having a 240 gallon tank built for them but it is not here right now. I do not know how else to keep them from being stressed at the moment. I have plenty of rock caves for hiding. Trying to keep the water clean etc.I think I know who is causing it..a fish who is the same color but a different species. I also do not have a hospital tank and that is something I need to work and get now.
Click to expand...

I would not expect a 240G to house your existing fish happily. Will it be 8 feet long?

Some fish are going to clash if they are in any tank together no matter how long the tank is. But 8 feet would be better than 6 feet.


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## naturlvr

DJRansome said:


> naturlvr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> 
> Same goes for males who hover around heaters.
> 
> 
> 
> DJ I am having a 240 gallon tank built for them but it is not here right now. I do not know how else to keep them from being stressed at the moment. I have plenty of rock caves for hiding. Trying to keep the water clean etc.I think I know who is causing it..a fish who is the same color but a different species. I also do not have a hospital tank and that is something I need to work and get now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would not expect a 240G to house your existing fish happily. Will it be 8 feet long?
> 
> Some fish are going to clash if they are in any tank together no matter how long the tank is. But 8 feet would be better than 6 feet.
Click to expand...

 Yes it is 8 feet long. Do you have any suggestions as to get them to calm down and be nice? I thought of getting a bucket of water from the tank and putting the one I think is causing the trouble in it for a couple of hours and then put them back in the tank.
I took out my male electric yellow along with the females and then I put him back in and now he is being bullied as well. Seems a never ending struggle and someone is going to be the main bully and someone is going to be the target.


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## naturlvr

Seems like I spend my time stomping out fires. The Electric yellow is sad because his three females..two with babies are gone and now that he is back in the tank, he is being bullied. So he hides in the corner of the tank and looks depressed.


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## DJRansome

You are describing a time-out. It would be OK to use a 5G bucket for one fish if it is filtered and heated. IME it never works, but if you want to give it a good try, plan on a minimum of 3 weeks.

Best odds of success (and a LOT less expensive) would be separate tanks: 
One 75G for 12 adult male haps and peacocks with one of each that look nothing alike.
One 75G for 4 species of mbuna with 1m:4f of each (unless you choose aggressive mbuna species)


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## naturlvr

DJRansome said:


> You are describing a time-out. It would be OK to use a 5G bucket for one fish if it is filtered and heated. IME it never works, but if you want to give it a good try, plan on a minimum of 3 weeks.
> 
> Best odds of success (and a LOT less expensive) would be separate tanks:
> One 75G for 12 adult male haps and peacocks with one of each that look nothing alike.
> One 75G for 4 species of mbuna with 1m:4f of each (unless you choose aggressive mbuna species)


I am waiting for the 240- gallon tank and I am getting a 40 gallon hospital tank and I will sell the 75 gallon tank. Until then I have to deal with things as best I can.


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## Kipnlilo

naturlvr said:


> Kipnlilo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with DJ. The Strawberry is being harassed more than likely. Stress/constant harassment in a tank is linked to illness for sure. Just curious as to how you are administering the Metroplex? If they are still eating, the best way I've found is to stir/dissolve it in just enough liquid that your pellets will soak it all up within 5 minutes. I prefer garlic guard, but you can use tank water. Metroplex is good medication, I've used it Focus and Kanaplex for different situations with good results.
> 
> 
> 
> Kipnlilo I am spooning it into the tank. I wasn't keen on the idea of putting it into their food since I have over 30 fish in there..afraid not everyone would get a dose. What pellets are you speaking of? Should I put some mashed garlic in the tank?
Click to expand...

 I was referring to your normal food pellets you feed. I wouldn't use any type of store bought garlic. Just use your tank water. If it were my tank, with as many fish as you have, I would dose both the tank and the food. I don't mean overdosing either. Let's say for example you are using 7 - 8 of the tiny level spoonfuls to dose a 75g tank. I would mix/stir one of the spoonfuls with tank water until dissolved. Then add food pellets to it to soak up the medicated mixture. Therefore, the infected fish that are still eating are insured immediate medication. I have used this method with great results. Again, I agree with DJ. Timeouts hardly ever work. Once a bully, always a bully most of the time. Trade it in at your LFS. Also agree that some fish just don't work with each other. It's a learning curve, sometimes the lessons are hard. I feel for you.


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