# Why not a Wet/Dry + Refugium?



## markl323 (Feb 28, 2013)

Hello.....I'm new here :fish:

I am starting a new Frontosa tank 180G with around 10 fish conoly and I want a Wet/Dry filter due to leaky canisters I have had in the past. I also want to get something with a Refugium in it to reduce nitrate but I haven't really seen any models like this being sold online.

This leads to me to think that there is very little demand for this combination. My searches also didn't come up with many owners of this type of filtration systems. Reasons I have read include: more maintenance, requiring an unrealistic amount of plants to be effective, water changes are simpler, etc.

My goal is not to reduce the frequency of water changes but to improve water quality. I change water once a week. Has anyone had good success with a setup like this? Or why did decide against it? Is it worth the troubles?


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## stage3-s4 (Jan 13, 2013)

You can just buy any acrlyic sump used for saltwater. Check out MRC, trigger systems, or eshopps.

Refugiums work great when done correctly. I had one on my reef tank and it really helps keep the nitrates down.

Im not really sure you would need or want one with a cichlid tank. Nor have I ever heard of someone using one on a freshwater tank. Using a wet/dry sump and doing water changes every 2-3 weeks my nitrates have never been in a issue. On a reef tank you have to deal with inverts and corals which will not do well if you have really high nitrates. This is not usually the case with fish, which can tolerate higher nirtates to an extent.

Also you have tons of macro algae like chatemorpha and calaurpa that absorb nitrites/nitrates. I dont think there is such a thing in fresh water. In my refugium i had a deep sand bed of about 3" with small pieces of live rock rubble and some chato. This worked perfectly and my chato started to grow so rapidly that i was consistently removing clumps every week or so.

Keep in mind that most wet/dry type of filters do not really belong on a system with a refugium. Wet/dry systems are used when you dont have bioligoical filtration like using live rock and a deep sand bed. Fish only systems usually have live rock with a skimmer or a sump with a wet/dry and skimmer. Obviously for freshwater there is nothing that is the same as live rock or protien skimmers in the marine world so that is why we have to resort to wet/dry sumps.

Again, im not fimiliar with and application where refugiums are used on freshwater tanks. I think your wet/dry should be all you need. I dont think there it really makes sense to add a refugium.


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## markl323 (Feb 28, 2013)

stage3-s4, thanks for the long response. i guess this setup is too complicate and doesn't work that well. i think i'll just do a wet/dry and be done with it for now.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

My setup contains kind of a refugium, although I don't use it to remove nitrates. It is simply an additional volume of water that provides additional stability for the whole system. My tank is a 240G, and I use two 45G plastic totes as sumps, which are both filled to the top adding a total of 90G to the system.

Filtration is done by 2 pieces of Poret Filter Foam, which sit as dividers one in each sump. They provide excellent biological and mechanical filtration, and make for super easy maintenance. I only need one filter cleaning in Spring and one in Fall.

With sufficient lighting over the sump, it could easily be used to remove nitrate by acting as an algae scrubber. I chose not to do that to avoid depriving the plants in the main tank of necessary nutrients.

If you want to do the utmost for water quality as well as personal convenience, consider adding a drip automatic water change system!


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

If you've got a refugium, or can make one you can get crafty running one for misc purpose's. I was thinking of using a few i have laying around as shrimp tanks, to be apart of a existing system without having to setup another tank or deal with safety concerns of their well being. Also as fry holders. You can also mod them to be used as additional biological/mechanical filtration, or grow plants out of.

But with how much they cost i wouldnt bother buying one for the same purpose as in saltwater, as it wont serve the same purpose mostly.


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## markl323 (Feb 28, 2013)

fmueller said:


> My setup contains kind of a refugium, although I don't use it to remove nitrates. It is simply an additional volume of water that provides additional stability for the whole system. My tank is a 240G, and I use two 45G plastic totes as sumps, which are both filled to the top adding a total of 90G to the system.
> 
> Filtration is done by 2 pieces of Poret Filter Foam, which sit as dividers one in each sump. They provide excellent biological and mechanical filtration, and make for super easy maintenance. I only need one filter cleaning in Spring and one in Fall.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the foam filter pads idea. I ordered the CPR 3000 Wet/Dry which has a big sump. I will get a piece of foam filter for increased mechanical filtration. I'm hoping this will be enough although I have a feeling that it won't as these fish produce a lot of waste and with the overflow box sitting at the top of the tank it won't be catching as many solid particles.

I also thought about that Algae Scrubber idea. It would be a a fun DIY project.


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## markl323 (Feb 28, 2013)

CrypticLifeStyle said:


> If you've got a refugium, or can make one you can get crafty running one for misc purpose's. I was thinking of using a few i have laying around as shrimp tanks, to be apart of a existing system without having to setup another tank or deal with safety concerns of their well being. Also as fry holders. You can also mod them to be used as additional biological/mechanical filtration, or grow plants out of.
> 
> But with how much they cost i wouldnt bother buying one for the same purpose as in saltwater, as it wont serve the same purpose mostly.


Right now I'm only using it to house the heaters and a bag of 20 lbs crushed corals.

I think a plant refugium setup won't make much of a difference in reducing nitrate but Alage Scrubber setup may. Also, there's one more option that I am considering: connecting a nitrate reactor (such as the Korallin BioDenitrator) to the sump. Although I'm not sure if it will make a difference if I already change water once a week.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Have you considered the option of a drip automatic water change system? Cost is about $20 compared to $400 to $700 depending on which model of the denitrator you choose. The effect in removing nitrate should be about the same, and the drip system completely eliminates the need to do further water changes, which the denitrator does now. Just wondering.


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## markl323 (Feb 28, 2013)

fmueller said:


> Have you considered the option of a drip automatic water change system? Cost is about $20 compared to $400 to $700 depending on which model of the denitrator you choose. The effect in removing nitrate should be about the same, and the drip system completely eliminates the need to do further water changes, which the denitrator does now. Just wondering.


Yes I have thought about it. It would require drilling the walls and other things I'm not sure I want to do. It would probably be the best nitrate reducing system however.


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

You'd be quite surprised how much plants absorb. They are nitrate, and ammonia sponges.


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## markl323 (Feb 28, 2013)

CrypticLifeStyle said:


> You'd be quite surprised how much plants absorb. They are nitrate, and ammonia sponges.


i have heard claims that in order for it to "work" for a tank with small school of tetra, a 55G planted refugium is required. not sure if it's true. i would love to see a success story but i haven't found one so far. maybe i need to do more searches.

also, emerged plants are better since they can get CO2 from the air. the Algae Scrubber setup is certain more popular. what i haven't had time to find out was if it was popular among freshwater tanks.

from what i have learned through my research:

Ozone Injection Sytem: brakes down organic molecules so this includes nitrate. works very well. used by many breeders/retailers. but accidents can be lethal to not only fish but human. 
conclusion: not recommend for the average hobbyists, IMO.

Carbon-Based Nitrate Reactor: needs to be fed alcohol. very slow filtration rate. takes roughly one week to filter the tank's volume. can be easily clogged (at least on the DIY coil version). some system requires stand-alone mode: no other filter in the system, which makes it risky. also, i suspect that since the flow rate is so low, fish are susceptible to higher stress from higher levels of ammonia and nitrite waiting to be process by the slow filter. initial setup can be tedious, needs to constantly fine-tune the drop/flow rates for the first 2-4 weeks.
conclusion: risky. have no fail-safe.

Sulfur-Based Nitrate Reactor: doesn't need to be fed anything. but the sulfur needs to be replaced yearly. meaning $150 more a year for the high end models on top of $450 up front cost. also needs the initial fine-tuning. can be used in conjunction with other filters. another negative is that the nitrate removing chemical reaction lowers the pH over time. some systems come with buffering mechanism to counter this.
conclusion: costly but works.

Chemical Media: like Purigen. i guess it works well. but probably costs the same amount of money in the end compared to the reactor types. but requires getting your hands dirty once a week.
conclusion: changing filter media once a week is not fun

Algae Scrubber: works well. a good one for a 180G costs roughly $300 to build and maybe $100/year in light bulb costs. then there is the cost of electricity for the two bulbs and the pump. i don't think this will save much money if any compared to Chemical Media and Sulfur/Nitrate Reactor methods but it can be a fun DIY project.
conclusion: still need to clean the screen weekly. messy.

Drip system: great if you can do it.

so in the end, I like the sulfur reactor best but the Algae Scrubber can also be fun to do.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

You've obviously done a lot of research on this. I've never spend much time looking into nitrate removal systems other than auto water changers, simply because that seemed very easy for me to do. Drilling a hole through a wall to me seems like a piece of cake - especially in the wood frame construction houses prevalent here in the US. Back in our family home in Germany drilling a hole through a brick wall was hit and miss - depending if you chanced on a 'good' brick or one that was made during war time ;-) Anyhow, if you are renting or just not comfortable with a power drill, I can see how that could hold somebody back.

One nitpick regarding your calculation, I use four T8 double strip 4' shoplights to light my 240G. The shoplights cost $10 at the hardware store, and a double pack of 6500K fluorescent tubes is about $7. In other words, the entire setup cost about $68 to set up, and I can do a complete bulb replacement for $28. I aim to swap the bulbs once every two years for peace of mind, but they last much longer. Why anybody would need to spend $100 per year on bulbs to grow algae is a mystery to me!

If I wanted to put an algae scrubber into my existing sump, all I'd need would be a plastic screen (about $10), a T8 double strip 4' shoplight (about $20, I think the price went up since I bought mine), two 6500K tubes ($7), and a timer ($5). Even factoring in a few bucks for screws and other bits and pieces, I reckon I'd stay under $50 for the entire project. But it's also a DIY project, and if you prefer something store bought and ready out of the box, a reactor might be a better choice. Best of luck!


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## markl323 (Feb 28, 2013)

fmueller, interesting story about the brick. this is a condo and they HOA people would have a field day if I had all these plumbing connections going outside the house (the water faucets are outside and no indoor drain on the first floor).

you are right i made a mistake about the cost of bulbs: only the bulbs need to be changed not the entire fixtures so it should cost much less.

i wonder what is the PPI of your foam pads. do you clean them only twice a year because they don't trap that much waste or because that's just a low number you picked for convenience? i ordered 1 piece. 30 PPI, 4" thick for the sump.


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