# Would these be Ok together?



## kelownacichlids (Mar 3, 2009)

Hi All,
I am just setting up a 72gal as a cichlid tank and after much reading I think I know how I want to stock it but I would like your opinions please.Pseudotropheus acei, Labidochromis caeruleus "yellow", Pseudotropheus saulosi, and Metriaclima estherae. I was thinking 4-5 of each with 1 male and 3-4 females. If the 1:3 ratio is better should I add 1 more species for 20 fish or should I then just stick with 16? Will the 2 Pseudotropheus be OK together or is that a bad mix? Maybe replace the "acei" with Melanochromis johanni? I haven't filled it yet but here is how it looks so far


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## webgirl74 (Jan 30, 2009)

I don't know much about mixing those types of cichlids as I've never had them before, but your tank looks great!!


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## kelownacichlids (Mar 3, 2009)

Thanks, my first attempt at a DIY 3D BG
Kim


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## kelownacichlids (Mar 3, 2009)

I changed it a bit and got a better pic though the actinic blue I have in there makes the colours look a little off.
Kim


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## kodyboy (Dec 9, 2007)

Sounds fine, although I would put them in a 1:5 ratio (or higher) of male to female, except for the yellow labs/accei as it does not really matter with them (although I would still get six of each). The larger ratios/numbers help mitigate aggression and hybridization.


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## Joea (May 25, 2004)

There's a good chance of hybridization between the _L. caeruleus _and the _M. estherae_. I would keep the _Ps_. sp. "acei" and replace the _M. estherae_ with the _M. johannii_. 5 to 6 each would be ideal.


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## kelownacichlids (Mar 3, 2009)

Joea said:


> There's a good chance of hybridization between the _L. caeruleus _and the _M. estherae_. I would keep the _Ps_. sp. "acei" and replace the _M. estherae_ with the _M. johannii_. 5 to 6 each would be ideal.


Thanks for the answers. You don't think 24 fish is too many for the tank? There is some volume loss to decorations I think  Is there enough hidey holes for that number of fish? Is it usually only the males that stake out territory? Any other advise anybody?
Kim


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## Dizzcat (Aug 26, 2008)

I have a group of each, except the saulosi. I have 1 male and 3 females each of Acei, Red Zebra(M. estherae) and Yellow Labs (L. caeruleus). I love the color differences of the yellow, orange and purple!

I have had no hybridization going on at all between the Labs and Red Zebra's. I have had a LOT of spawns and the fish stick with their own. I know this because I have watched every spawn but the last one with my Yellows. I think if you have a big enough group of females the males don't try to mate with the wrong females. I have never seen either my male Lab or male Red ever vibrate to a female that was not their own kind. I also don't understand where the worry over hybridization between these two groups comes from. I am on 3 cichlid forums, plus have friends with Africans and have not met anyone who has had it happen. I think hybridization comes when you have a lone male of either species.

I am not trying to cause trouble here, just a little confused about this issue and stating my observations. How come there is no issue of hybridization between Labs and saulosi?? The saulosi females are yellow just like labs. I have always wondered that. :-?

You could do like I did, get yourself 3 or 4 groups, like 1 male/4 females of each, then a lone one here and there. I have a lone Demasoni and am looking to get another single that I like. I am looking for a blue or white African, but so far no luck. Not sure yet, have not seen any that caught my eye yet. This way you can watch the dynamics of the groups, plus have a couple for the single color difference. My Demasoni looks really awesome and stands out so great against the yellow, orange and purple of the others. With Dems you get either 1 or 15, because they will pick on their own kind very bad. My guy gets along great 

I used to have 2 males and 2 female Labs, but my one male is a VERY dominant fish, so the male to female ratio really did matter in my case. I ended up trading my sub male for another female.

Also, be aware that johannii's are very aggressive fish. If it was me I would avoid them, just because my tank is very peaceful (for an African tank) and I would not want to mess that up.

What ever you end up with, they will like that tank! Nice!


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## kelownacichlids (Mar 3, 2009)

I had heard that the "johanni" are very agressive, that is why they were on my second choice list. I hadn't really read about cross breeding of Labs and Zebras but I haven't read everything yet :wink: I don't think the 2 psuedotropheus species should be a problem. I was more worried about a psuedotropheus saulosi/metriaclima estherae situation as they have similar colouring. I've been thinking about his for so long I'm starting to get a real headache  What do they mean in the cookie cutter 75gal setups when they say don't mix psuedo saulosi with psuedo "deep"? What are psuedo "deep"?
Kim
Thanks Dizzcat, I do hope they like it :fish:


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## Joea (May 25, 2004)

_M. johannii_ can be rather aggressive but a 75 gallon is good size for them. A better choice than _M. johannii_ is _Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos_. Both male and female are identical in colouration to _M. johannii _males and it would reduce the amount of yellow/orange in this tank. They're also a little less aggressive. They're often sold as Electric Blue Johanni so be aware of that. The easiest way of telling whether or not they're _M. cyaneorhabdos_ is if they are all blue as juveniles; _M. johannii _will be yellow.

_L. caeruleus_ and _M. estherae _crosses are one of the more common hybrids sold out there today. Most people who keep these two species together think that the fry they get from either species are pure because the fry often look pure. Once they grow to an inch or two, the cross becomes rather apparent. Someone stating they witness every spawn is somewhat unbelievable when this would pretty much necessitate them sitting in front of the tank 24/7. The fact is, any two mouthbrooding cichlids can cross and the chance of it happening are increased when you house two species that resemble one another, regardless of how many males or females you have. Ask cichlidaholic about her experience with these two species. There are several members on this forum with similar experiences.

This also goes with mixing species of the same genus. While there are many genera that don't resemble one another and are fine together, many of them do have similar morphs and will readily cross. _Ps. saulosi_ and _Metriaclima _sp. "Msobo" (formerly Ps. deep, cookie cutters are in need of some updating.  ) would have been two examples of this.


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## kelownacichlids (Mar 3, 2009)

So you are saying P."acei"(purple/yellow monomorphic), P."saulosi"(blue/yellow dimorphic), M."cyaneorhabdos"(blue/black monomorphic) and either L."caeruleus"(yellow monomorphic) or [my choice]M."estherae"(blue/orange dimorphic) would be the way to go. Any problems with M.estherae and P.saulosi crossing or fighting? Would you go 1:4 ratios or could I go 1:3 ratio and add 1 more group and if so what? I really want to cycle and add the whole group at once if I can find a dealer who can supply me with them all together. I would prefer juveniles if I can get them with a reasonable chance of getting the M/F ratio right (skilled dealer/breeder). I can't find anyone up here yet but I could and would go to the coast (Vancouver) if I can find a good dealer down there. 
Kim


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## Dizzcat (Aug 26, 2008)

> Someone stating they witness every spawn is somewhat unbelievable when this would pretty much necessitate them sitting in front of the tank 24/7.


*Joea* Its is actually easy when you are disabled and stuck at home 24/7 and the tank in question is in the same room you are in all day long. You get to know the behaviors the fish display just before they spawn. You also know a spawn is going on by the way the others act. Mine tend to spawn about mid morning and it will last for a couple hours. It seems to always be the day after a water change (my water changes take place at night when I am feeling my best). As soon as I notice this I will park myself in front of the tank and watch.

I trade my fry to a lfs and they give me credit to buy my supplies. All my Red fry and Labs look very pure at 2". I also trade in Bolivian Ram fry too. These guys are a lot harder to get past a week old, they are so fragile. My tank and begiiner fish were given to me, and the rest I have either kept from a spawn or got in trade.

I just wanted to let you know that yes, its hard to believe that someone can witness each spawn, but it IS possible when you are disabled and home-bound.


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## Joea (May 25, 2004)

Sounds like a mix that work out ok.

There's always a risk of aggression and hybridization but with those species, kept in groups of a single male and four females (don't worry about the Labs and acei ratio), the chances are greatly reduced.


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## kelownacichlids (Mar 3, 2009)

Dizzcat, sorry to hear about your condition.
Joea, thanks for the input, now to figure out where to get what I want, lol.
Kim


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## Dizzcat (Aug 26, 2008)

Finding what you want is the hard part! I had so many combo's picked out, but the only ones I found easy where the Yellow Labs and the Acei. I would find an odd one here and there, but never any groups. I have upgraded to a larger tank and would love to add another group of 1m/2-3f of something else, like Rustie's, but cannot find any. I finally had a friend give me a couple groups of fry from his tank.


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## kelownacichlids (Mar 3, 2009)

I hear that there's a couple of fish stores on the coast, Vancouver,BC, that are cichlid specialists. I am going to contact them and see what can vbe done to get me all of these together. I'm keeping my fingers crossed and :thumb: up.
Kim


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