# Newbie with aggressive firemouth



## bostoncichlidfan (Jul 7, 2012)

Hi there, I'm new to cichlids and currently have six in a 29 gallon tank: 3 severums, 2 firemouths, and 1 electric blue ballon ram as well as a couple of cory cats and a rubber lip pleco. I recently restarted my tank after years of bad luck with fancy goldfish. They are certainly interesting and entertaining fish, and I'm glad I made the switch. However, I have one firemouth that constantly chases everyone, especially the other firemouth. Fortunately, he's not causing any damage to any of their fins. Short of buying a larger tank, which I plan on doing soon, what, if anything, can I do to make the tank more peaceful? Should I return him? I had a Nicaraguensis that I had to return because he nipped fins and killed a couple of chromides. I also originally had 2 severums, and ended up getting a third because one was bullying the other, and now that there are three, they get along better. Oh, and it's funny to watch the balloon ram, which is supposed to be the most docile one, defend its corner and even stand up to the aggressive firemouth. Thanks for your advice!


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## smitty (May 7, 2004)

I think the way you went with the Severums is probably the way you would have to go with the Firemouths. Add 2 more to break the chase pattern. It usually works. Your draw back is the size of the tank.


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## bostoncichlidfan (Jul 7, 2012)

Thanks! I have only had them for less than two weeks. I want to make sure they survive before I invest in a new tank and stand. Aren't Firemouths more territorial though? Would it break up the chase pattern or just make things worse because each of their territory is smaller? I guess I'll give it a shot. The less dominant Firemouth even gets chased by the ballon ram, which I find hilarious because the ram is the most decorative and supposedly the least aggressive.


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## Ohio Cichlid Lover (Feb 27, 2012)

I have two 2.5" Firemouths in a 55 gallon tank along with some other New World Cichlids. This seems to be a common behavior for Firemouths. The only fish the "alpha" Firemouth chases is the other Firemouth but will not back down from another cichlid. I've read several times on the internet that Firemouths are "All Bark And No Bite". I disagree. My "alpha" Firemouth went nose to nose with my 4" male Convict and held his ground. As far as the Firemouths chasing each other, I've never seen any damage done. Just the usual chase to say "i'm the boss".


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## bostoncichlidfan (Jul 7, 2012)

Yeah, I read that they actually don't do any physical damage, but it's almost constant chasing.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

I don't see adding more fish helping your situation. A 29gal tank is much to small for your listed stock. I would either get rid of some of your current fish or buy a larger aquarium. A 29gal tank is not even large enough for a SINGLE adult Severum.


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## bluejack23 (Jan 23, 2012)

Invest in a 125 today.


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## jparker98 (Jun 6, 2012)

bluejack23 said:


> Invest in a 125 today.


Quadruple your tank size to curb aggression in 1 $3 juvenile fish? Seems a bit extreme to me especially if all his fish are juvies...maybe he doesn't plan to keep them all till they're adults? I know in my case I plan to grow out juvies in my 55 gallon and then trade or sell them and start over with juvies of a different species as the growing process is what most interests me and not so much huge adult fish.


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## Tiktaalik Owner (Aug 17, 2009)

> Quadruple your tank size to curb aggression in 1 $3 juvenile fish? Seems a bit extreme to me ...


Giving an animal enough room to thrive is responsible fishkeeping plain and simple.



> ... maybe he doesn't plan to keep them all till they're adults? I know in my case I plan to grow out juvies in my 55 gallon and then trade or sell them and start over with juvies of a different species as the growing process is what most interests me and not so much huge adult fish.


They're living beings, not DVDs.


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## bluejack23 (Jan 23, 2012)

+1 fish are pets not playing cards!


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## jparker98 (Jun 6, 2012)

Tiktaalik Owner said:


> > ... maybe he doesn't plan to keep them all till they're adults? I know in my case I plan to grow out juvies in my 55 gallon and then trade or sell them and start over with juvies of a different species as the growing process is what most interests me and not so much huge adult fish.
> 
> 
> They're living beings, not DVDs.


Seems a bit dramatic too me, but everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

Just to clarify the responsible thing to do when I buy fish is keep it till it grows old and dies?


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## Azedenkae (Apr 19, 2012)

The responsible thing to do is to treat it well, the end. You can sell it whenever, give it away whenever. Just make sure that it's healthy when it's in your care.


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## bluejack23 (Jan 23, 2012)

Agreed


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## Tiktaalik Owner (Aug 17, 2009)

> Just to clarify the responsible thing to do when I buy fish is keep it till it grows old and dies?


What's your opinion of someone who buys a puppy then drops it off at the humane society once it's grown? The analogy often drawn between New World cichlids and dogs isn't hyperbole. That's why hobbyists call them "wet pets." It seems callous to take care of an animal for a year or so, then dump it at the local fish store. What becomes of them? Often they languish there.


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## jparker98 (Jun 6, 2012)

Tiktaalik Owner said:


> > Just to clarify the responsible thing to do when I buy fish is keep it till it grows old and dies?
> 
> 
> What's your opinion of someone who buys a puppy then drops it off at the humane society once it's grown? The analogy often drawn between New World cichlids and dogs isn't hyperbole. That's why hobbyists call them "wet pets." It seems callous to take care of an animal for a year or so, then dump it at the local fish store. What becomes of them? Often they languish there.


I see where you're coming from, but on the same note is the juvenile fish that I bought better off left in the 20 gallon tank at the pet store with 20 other fish or in my 55 gallon at home where I take very good care of my tank and have 3 other fish? Using your puppy analogy...what if you bought a puppy and it grew larger than you had space for would it be better off in your cramped space or being re-homed with someone that has adequate space?

You original post contradicts itself in my opinion. You first say providing the fish with adequate space is responsible fish keeping, but then tell me fish aren't DVD's for re-homing them when they outgrow my tank.

My point is not everyone keeps fish for the same reasons just like people buy puppies for different reasons. Just because it's not the same reason as yours doesn't mean it's wrong.


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## Tiktaalik Owner (Aug 17, 2009)

I wouldn't buy a puppy that I knew would outgrow my house. Getting a Great Dane would be irresponsible. Why buy a fish that's going to outgrow your tank?



> My point is not everyone keeps fish for the same reasons just like people buy puppies for different reasons.


Some cultures raise puppies for food. Are you cool with that? You obviously have no problem treating cichlids as disposable widgets.



> Just because it's not the same reason as yours doesn't mean it's wrong.


Define "wrong." Are you a moral relativist? Is any treatment of cichlids "wrong"?


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## jparker98 (Jun 6, 2012)

Tiktaalik Owner said:


> I wouldn't buy a puppy that I knew would outgrow my house. Getting a Great Dane would be irresponsible. Why buy a fish that's going to outgrow your tank?


Because I like how the fish looks and watching them grow interests me.



> Some cultures raise puppies for food. Are you cool with that? You obviously have no problem treating cichlids as disposable widgets.


We raise cattle, chickens, fish, etc...to eat. Are you ok with that? opcorn:



> Define "wrong." Are you a moral relativist? Is any treatment of cichlids "wrong"?


If I were say raising these fish and then killing them because they got too big for my tank well that would be wrong. Raising them till they are too big for my tank and then re-homing them isn't.

It's obvious that you're uncomfortable with MY reason for keeping fish, that's fine, like I said earlier you're entitled to your opinion as I am mine. It's pointless to keep going back and forth about this. Enjoy your fish, I hope you grow old together.


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## Tiktaalik Owner (Aug 17, 2009)

> It's obvious that you're uncomfortable with MY reason for keeping fish, that's fine, like I said earlier you're entitled to your opinion as I am mine.


It goes without saying that we're "entitled" to our opinions (whatever that means). The point of these forums is to compare and contrast the ways we take care of our fish. It is presupposed by anyone discussing anything here that not all opinions are of equal worth. You are asserting that the only minor difference between two antithetic styles of fishkeeping is the arbitrary rationale we have for owning fish. You like watching them grow; I keep them as pets. Six of one, half dozen of the other.



> It's pointless to keep going back and forth about this.


Not at all. Compared to a gazillion threads comparing Eheim to Fluval this issue and related ones deserve more discussion. Your style of fishkeeping would be considered unconventional in a pejorative way by a majority of fishkeepers.



> I traded in most of my Mbuna to my LFS, but still have a Electric Blue Johanni and OB Zebra in there. I added a Jaguar, Red Devil and Flowerhorn. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=247405&p=1755983#p1755983


To a 55 gallon tank!? Until they get too big, at which point you'll replace them with a new assortment. You'll notice if you peruse the forum that a significant proportion of post encourage people not to overstock their tanks. These fish grow crazy fast.


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## kaphil (Aug 3, 2006)

Tiktaalik Owner said:


> > Your style of fishkeeping would be considered unconventional in a pejorative way by a majority of fishkeepers.


I dont think that's true, many fishkeepers do it, all the time, expecially those that don't have space for numerous tanks. If I have a tank of SA cichlids and want to switch to say aggressive CA or mbuna, do I have to wait for potentially 10 years+ until the last SA cichlid dies of ald age before doing so? No, I rehome them. If I want to get a pair of CA cichlids I will often go the traditional route of getting a group of juvies, let a pair establish, and rehome the rest (before the pair kills them). What do I do with most of the fry produced? Eventually, I rehome them. It happens all the time, for very good reasons, and that doesn't mean the fish are any less a pet than when kept to old age.


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## CaCichilds (Apr 10, 2012)

Here's my 5 cents...

#1 you can certainly put 10 young Fm's in a 29 for a few months and certainly pair some up and move onward. // In contrast if fish stores didn't crowd tank, and didn't load up with tons of young fish. This hobby would be an even great nitche than it is now. As much as we hate petsmart/petco they are the open door for manly young and old people to enter this hobby. So before you speak the word of god about fish keeping think a little.

#2 Do not dare compare fish to dogs. Or Fish to DVD's? You sound stupid, my SAT score just dropped by a few hundred pts from reading some peoples thoughts.

Some of you are the same people who use feeder fish, or convicts as target fish, or **** sometimes you're fish go at it right? When the **** would you feed your DOG a PUPPY! When would you give your DOG a smaller do to chase... please stop these horrible analogies.

#3 Let people learn the hard way if they don't think they need a bigger tank ect. But suggesting a 125 is also overkill. Once again no one would be in this hobby if their only option was a 125g.

#4 These fish as a whole, are culled, inbred and produces by the thousands.

#5 I think some people need to get off their high horse. There is a reason stupid post/threads don't exist on "Monster Fish Keepers" site. I visit here still for the few knowledgeable, folks willing to have a discussion, offer good advice (practical as well) but, however, it seems there is more and more novices and people looking to troll. Rather than give this guy a decent answer and some usefull advice on how to go about his situation, much of this thread became a fish ethics talk. #smh


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## skwerl (Mar 2, 2011)

@ JParker and Tiktaalik,

I have been thoroughly enjoying watching this thread. I believe that the two of you actually have more similar views than you realize. JParker wants to give the overcrowded, undercaredfor LFS fish *a better home*. Tiktaalik wants to make sure fish are given ample, quality space in the hobbyist's aquarium (*a better home*). Together, the two of you would become a tremendous force for the good of all aquarium fishkind by attacking the problems of overcrowding and lack of care from both angles. 

Of late, my views on fish keeping have been changing. I enjoy a good fish fillet or steak now and then, and my wife does not. My male firemouth is starting to look like he's getting large enough to make a nice two-bite fillet. Does anyone have a good recipe I could use? And then (BONUS!) I will have room in my tank for some new fish! :wink:


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## jparker98 (Jun 6, 2012)

Tiktaalik Owner said:


> > I traded in most of my Mbuna to my LFS, but still have a Electric Blue Johanni and OB Zebra in there. I added a Jaguar, Red Devil and Flowerhorn. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=247405&p=1755983#p1755983
> 
> 
> To a 55 gallon tank!? Until they get too big, at which point you'll replace them with a new assortment. You'll notice if you peruse the forum that a significant proportion of post encourage people not to overstock their tanks. These fish grow crazy fast.


Yes to a 55 gallon and all other than the Jaguar (never would eat after I got him home and ended up dieing) are doing quite well as they're all around 2" juvies. I originally planned on getting rid of all my Mbuna as I thought they'd get bullied, but they actually run the tank so I may end up keeping them a little longer as it's pretty interesting watching the dynamic. My tank is currently decorated with fake driftwood on one side for the New Worlds and rock work on the other side for the Mbuna (admittedly not the prettiest setup).

Tank may be overstocked, but I have minimal aggression issues (so far), plenty of filtration (~850gph) and I do ~15% water changes twice a week.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Your overstocked, but you know that like you said. You picked some fish with the potential to be beefy, 15% won't keep the nitrates at bay once the fish get some size.

I think your missing out on the most awesome part of fish keeping. It's not until fish are sexually mature that the REAL behaviors surface. Claiming territory, spawning, courtship, dominance, ect are all behavior seen in mature fish. Man oh man, wish we could work out a deal where I let you raise my fry! I hate watching fish grow, I enjoy the adult behaviors.

So as far as your situation, I think you should go with something more mellow than firemouths (T. meeki). meeki is in my experience pretty rough on each other and I had them in a 125g. There are a plethora of dwarf fish you could do easily in a 29g and since you seem pretty observant I think you would enjoy the parental care and breeding behaviors immensely.


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## CaCichilds (Apr 10, 2012)

ahud said:


> Your overstocked, but you know that like you said. You picked some fish with the potential to be beefy, 15% won't keep the nitrates at bay once the fish get some size.
> 
> I think your missing out on the most awesome part of fish keeping. It's not until fish are sexually mature that the REAL behaviors surface. Claiming territory, spawning, courtship, dominance, ect are all behavior seen in mature fish. Man oh man, wish we could work out a deal where I let you raise my fry! I hate watching fish grow, I enjoy the adult behaviors.
> 
> So as far as your situation, I think you should go with something more mellow than firemouths (T. meeki). meeki is in my experience pretty rough on each other and I had them in a 125g. There are a plethora of dwarf fish you could do easily in a 29g and since you seem pretty observant I think you would enjoy the parental care and breeding behaviors immensely.


+1


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## jparker98 (Jun 6, 2012)

Sorry think there's some confusion, I do not have Firemouth's. I originally replied saying recommending the OP get a 125 gallon immediately was a little dramatic in my opinion. Unfortunately we ended up taking over the OP's thread with opinions on responsible fish keeping.

Myself I may upgrade to a larger tank down the road and at that time I may keep adult fish, but currently I'm taking what I can get out of my 55 gallon. Basically this is my first time keeping fish in 15 years so I didn't want to go out and spend $1k on a 125 gallon setup when I wasn't even sure how long I planned on staying in the hobby, if say next year I'm as interested as I am now I will more than likely make that investment.

Personally I got into the hobby because I used to keep cichlids about 15 years ago and enjoyed it and my 2 son's guinea pig died recently so I figured I'd give it a shot too see if I could get them into it fish which they are both very into it now so I do see us upgrading to a larger tank down the road. My 7 year old is already saying he wants his own tank for Christmas so maybe around that time I'll give him the 55 and get a 125 for myself.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

:wink: The OP has fire mouths.

This is one of those threads that the horse keeps getting beat unless we get back to the OP's original post lol. So lets help him out.


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## phinexswarm35 (Aug 4, 2011)

i would say to switch to bigger aquarium as fast as u could
think about it instead of adding third severum for saying in despertedly reducing aggresion.switching to bigger aquarium
will make the other way around and improve their quallity of life :thumb:


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## skwerl (Mar 2, 2011)

If you don't upgrade your tank size, I would keep a pair of firemouths, the cats and pleco. Rehome the others.

I have a pair of FM in a 36" 30gal, and I can't imagine fitting any other cichlids. It would be WW3. As it is the male regularly beats up on the female.

Good luck and let us know how things turn out.


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## bostoncichlidfan (Jul 7, 2012)

Wow, this thread exploded! Some of you guys are just as bad as the people in the Volkswagen and Porsche forums that I use. I guess hobbyists are all the same no matter what the hobby. But thanks to those of you who offered good advice.

So....I NEVER said I wasn't going to get a bigger tank. My 3 severums are barely bigger than a quarter each and putting them in a 125 gallon tank is ridiculous! I will get a 55 gallon tank when they grow larger, but for now, they're very happy where they are. The remaining firemouth decided to become the alpha fish when I took the other one back, and was ruthless to my ram. I did an experiment by taking him out and within a few minutes, the ram came out of hiding and was swimming throughout the whole tank and started eating again. The 3 severums left him alone and didn't even bully him into giving up his food. I don't like the idea of exchanging fish, but the alternative is worse, having dead fish. If you have a pet that isn't compatible with you or your other animals, it's better to take it back so someone who is a better match will adopt it. We had a kitten for a week when I was 3. It literally tried to bite my balls off when I was changing. I was terrified of it. We brought it back. How was that NOT the right thing to do for both us and the cat? I am taking the firemouth back so he can live in someone else's tank where he would probably be better suited. I've only had cichlids for 3 weeks and it's all new to me. The pet store owner said the firemouth would be ok with the other fish, and I was relying on his advice, which is why I bought two. They are gorgeous, but apparently too aggressive toward my other fish. So, I think I'm going to stick with rams and I saw some kribs for the first time, and they seem very peaceful as well. The severums have established a pecking order and they seem to be happy and don't bother the ram at all, so they are staying, too. Thanks for your help, and I will keep you posted.


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