# Yellow lab has had problems a since day 1



## MJCanAm (Jan 1, 2018)

So I've been having an issue with one of my yellow labs pretty much since I brought it home 2 weeks ago. (The other fish I got that same day are doing fine, no issues at all). At first it would hide in the back right corner always swimming upwards. I did a complete redesign of my tank adding much more caves and he seemed to improve a tad bit. Was no longer swimming upright and staying out of the corner but now he is primarily resting on the sand. He doesn't come up to eat so I try to ensure I quickly sink a few pellets down to him, he'll grab one or 2 then that is it. All the other fish in the tank are doing fine and there's been no major changes other than the redesign but he was acting worse before the redesign. I've never seen him being harassed or bullied by the others they honestly just seem to ignore him. On top of that his left eye seems a bit "off" to me and he's got this black stuff on top, looks kind of like dirt.

I had my water tested the other day at the LFS and was told my levels were normal. My PH is 8.0 and I have naturally hard tap water. I have my heater set to 80 but I believe I have a janky thermometer because it's showing the water temp as 76/77 (I am planning to get a better thermometer this week)


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Put him in a quarantine tank. Get a test kit with liquid regeants and test tubes...provide test results for pH, ammonia, nitrites and nitrates.

If the eye looks odd but you can't quite describe what is odd...check the colored circle around the outside of the dark part of his eye. When it swells it looks funny...this is called pop eye. Can be a water quality issue.

Observe his feces...is it thick and food colored or thready and white/clear?


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## MJCanAm (Jan 1, 2018)

pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 2
Nitrate: 5

I did see his feces today, it was white/clear.
I have a Marineland Penguins Biowheel 350 filter and the tank is a 46gallon.

Nitrites are obviously an issue, could that be the reason for this labs problem?


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## MJCanAm (Jan 1, 2018)

Tomorrow I will pick up some Seachem Prime and do another 50% water change before adding the Prime (did a 50% water change when rescaping this past Sunday). I've read the best way to combat the nitrite problem is to do a water change (or multiple over a few day period) without actually cleaning the substrate, any truth behind this?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yes...my fish start gasping at 0.5 nitrite...it is very toxic. Get a new LFS as well, since they told you water was fine.

So your tank is not cycled. You have no way to treat the fish...no cycled hospital tank.

To try to maintain the health of your other fish, change 50% of the water tonight, and 50% again tomorrow. That should get you down to 0.5 ppm. Test daily and you are likely to need to change water daily as well.


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## MJCanAm (Jan 1, 2018)

The LFS is Petco as the closest actual fish store is an hour away from my house. Should I just change the water and not clean the sand? Should I also use Prime with each water change?


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Yes change the water, don't worry about the sand and use Prime with each water change.


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## MJCanAm (Jan 1, 2018)

I think these should be my last questions. I add baking soda when I do my weekly water changes to help increase my pH. Should I continue this with these daily water changes? Should I do the 50%r change and use Prime every day until Nitrites are testing at 0?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

What is the pH of your tap water?

You have to add Prime to dechlorinate the new water you are adding so yes.

Continue the baking soda (calibrated to the amount of water you replace) until you find out the pH of your tap water. Depending on the results we could recommend that you gradually eliminate the baking soda...or at least reduce it.


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## MJCanAm (Jan 1, 2018)

The pH of my tap water is 7.5.

I did water change last night and went and picked up Seachem Prime, Seachem Stability, and aquarium salt this morning.

I used the Prime at 3x the regular dosage as they suggest up to 5x the regular dosage for nitrite emergencies. I added the salt and Stability as recommended. Will do another water change this evening and add more Prime rationed to the 50% new water. Unfortunately the lab and one of the zebras didn't make it through the night. I've got one more zebra this morning who looks like he might not make it through the day.

Hopefully the Prime, Stability, and salt combination can save the remaining fish and get these nitrites down to 0. Will keep you guys posted


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Keep adding the baking soda until your tank is cycled. Keep your parameters exactly the same in tank and added water for the duration.

Who recommended salt and Stability???

After your crisis is over, I would recommend gradually weaning off the baking soda over a period of months and then just use tap water with dechlor ongoing. pH=7.5 is sufficient as long as you are not using water that runs through a water softener.


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## MJCanAm (Jan 1, 2018)

Thanks so much for your help with this.

Seachem themselves recommended the salt and Stability. Doing research on reducing nitrites I came across a question asked to them on their site (the person was having issues similar to mine) and that is what the recommended.

Here's the link for that conversation: http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/f ... h-nitrites


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## MJCanAm (Jan 1, 2018)

Sitting here thinking about it and I realized on Sunday when I changed the design of the tank I removed the air pump after reading on here people who did not believe it was necessary. I've got the hang n the back filter that is continually causing water flow on the surface. Could that be contributing to these issues or is it solely the nitrate? I got rid of the air pump to keep the tubing out of the tank but am willing to put it back in if needed or beneficial. Thoughts?


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

I would add the air pump back in as long as you are using more Prime than usual so that you have good air/water exchange at the water surface.


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## MJCanAm (Jan 1, 2018)

Well it gets worse, got home today and was inspecting each fish and noticed one of the female zebras appears to have ich. I suck at this fish keeping thing jeez... I've already added the aquarium salt this morning and plan to gradually increase the temperature over the next few days. I'll be doing another 50% water change today and adding more Prime and Stability as needed. How long should I continue with daily 50% water changes and is there anything else I need to be doing to combat the ich? So far it's just the one fish I've noticed it on.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I will leave the ich to others...but you need to keep nitrites < 1ppm regardless of how many 50% water changes it takes.

You may want to check with Seachem on what Stability is supposed to do and how long it will take for it to handle the nitrites.


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## MJCanAm (Jan 1, 2018)

I've been keeping up with daily 50% changes and nitrites are still above 1 but are now a lot closer to 2 than they are to 5 on the API color chart. I obviously don't want to add any fish until my levels are regulated but here's the issue. 3 have died, one has ich which seems to be fading. I've got 8 cichlids (2 labs and 6 zebras) in the tank right now. With the depleted numbers because of the death, the OB Zebra (tank boss) aggression has increased substantially. The only other remaining OB is now hiding in the top corner by the filter and heater. The only 2 options I see are removing the aggressive OB (I don't have any quarantine/hospital tanks) or letting nature take it's course. Ideally I'd like to add 3-4 more to overcrowd the tank slightly and reduce his aggression but like I said, I don't plan to add any new fish until I know the levels are at consistently where they need to be. Do you guys have any recommendations?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Rehome the OB. If you don't address the problem causing the other OB to hide at the top he will get sick and infect the tank.

Start doing 75% daily to get the nitrites under 1ppm.

Try an ich medication so it doesn't spread.


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## MJCanAm (Jan 1, 2018)

I did a 75% water change early this afternoon and dosed with the prime and stability, couple questions though.

How long after the water change should I test the nitrite levels?

I've got a HOB filter (Bio-Wheel 350) which I've hidden with the rocks I've used in the tank, would this cause issues with adequate water flow through the filter and therefore slow down the cycle?


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## MJCanAm (Jan 1, 2018)

Nitrites are still reading high, somewhere between 2 and 5. That's with 50% change Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and a 75% change yesterday. Any other recommendations?


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Try testing your tap water for nitrite and post the results.


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## MJCanAm (Jan 1, 2018)

Tested that this morning it was 0. What a beautiful color 0 is lol.. now if only I could get the tank water there.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Thanks, I wasn't sure if you had nitrite in the tap water or if you were testing incorrectly.

Normally a 50% water change should result in a 50% decrease in the nitrite level so I'm not really sure what is going on with the tank.

Can you test the tank again and post a pic of the nitrite test tube against the color card for a comparison?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Agree, nitrite should be less with each water change.


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## MJCanAm (Jan 1, 2018)

Here's tank water and and tap water next to the card. I've got 2 70g bags of activated carbon in my filter behind the pads. Would that cause an issue? I'm searching around my area for used filter media so far all I've got someone willing to give me K1 media but I can't really figure out what it is. Ever heard of it?


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## morrismorris (Mar 21, 2017)

It seems like you are trying to mess with the water parameters a little too much. I would back off the salt and baking soda. This could be stressing out your fish. Keep things simple.

How long has this tank been running?


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## MJCanAm (Jan 1, 2018)

Tank has been running since the 2nd week of December but I bought it used along with the filter. Prior to me getting it it had been running for over a year.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Now do a 75% change and post test results again. We want to see at least some improvement.


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## MJCanAm (Jan 1, 2018)

Will do. How long after the change do I test again? I've haven't been vacuuming the gravel, just doing a water change.


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## MJCanAm (Jan 1, 2018)

In my filter I have the carbon bags, the filter cartridge, then the bio wheels. Is there anything else I should or could be adding to reduce nitrate or promote the necessary bacteria growth?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You are trying to reduce nitrite (not worrying as much about nitrate right now). I would contact Seachem and ask them why it is not working. For all I know the Stability causes the nitrite reading.


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## MJCanAm (Jan 1, 2018)

Sorry I meant nitrite in my prior post.

I emailed Seachem and here was their response to the Stability portion of my question:

"I would also recommend holding off on water changes as much as possible during the cycling process. When you initially add Stability to the water, the bacteria will exist in a free-floating state for the first couple of days before they can find the porous surfaces in your tank or filter on which they can attach, and begin to colonize. Performing water changes during this time increases the potential for pulling out some of the bacteria that were initially added."

The Stability is a 7 day schedule and they recommended starting the process over again without the daily water changes.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

What did they say about the nitrite levels and the deaths?


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## MJCanAm (Jan 1, 2018)

I didn't ask anything about the deaths as they all occurred prior to starting Prime and stability. Haven't had any deaths (knock on wood) since I started using the 2 products.

"The normal progression of the nitrogen cycle will show elevate levels of ammonia initially when an ammonia source (fish, fish foods, etc.) are added. The ammonia will then be converted to nitrite as Nitrosomonas (or other aerobic) bacteria oxidizes the ammonia to nitrite. Then, the nitrite is further converted to nitrate by the Nitrobacter (or other anaerobic) bacteria. Stability helps to expedite this process by introducing multiple sources of aerobic and anaerobic bacteria to consume ammonia, nitrite and nitrate to facilitate this process. If you have completed the full 7 day dose of Stability, then you have added enough bacteria sources to your tank for them to colonize and proliferate in your system. I would suggest holding off on adding more Stability at this time, and I would allow time for the bacteria sources that you have already added to properly colonize and multiply. If you are getting various ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings then the conversion process that takes place during a cycle should be taking place."

In another post asking them if high nitrites this was their response, the question came from someone with the exact same filter I have:

"Another reason that you may be dealing with high nitrites, is not enough biological surface area for the beneficial bacteria to colonize onto. We have a great media call Matrix, that is extremely porous and will house both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria. As long as you have good pre-filters, the Matrix will never need to be replaced and will last the life of your aquarium. If you decide to implement the Matrix, I would do so in addition to the bio-wheels. You do not want to remove the bio-wheels all together, as this will remove all of your beneficial bacteria, potentially causing an ammonia spike."

I'm wondering if there's an issue with my filtration and if I should look into their Matrix product or something similar. Questioning if just my filter cartridges and the carbon bags are enough to be effective.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'm not buying it. The tank is not cycled and changing the media will just start you over again. The bacteria are perfectly happy to grow on plastic pot scrubbers...they just have not had a chance to grow yet. Seems like they are just trying to sell stuff.

Your choice whether to let the nitrite remain or change the water. Nitrite is toxic to fish. Basically you are cycling with fish and maybe the Stability will make the cycle shorter, but anything more than 1ppm of nitrite is **** on your fish while it lasts.

What is the GPH of your filters? I like 8X to 10X, but I've also had no problems with 4X.


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## MJCanAm (Jan 1, 2018)

350 GPH on my HOB. I didn't find much information on that Matrix product so I'll just stick with I've got. My nitrates are slowly climbing so hopefully the nitrites will start dropping. I'm just confused as to why the water changes made no difference. It doesn't help that the 2 and 5 colors for nitrites on the API color chart are so dang similar, either way still way too high but I'd like to know for certain if I've dropped from 5 to 2 or not.


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