# Selling value of WCxF1 MOBAS



## atiz311 (Jan 29, 2009)

Hello, i've been away from frontosa for 3 years now and I just purchased a trio WC mpimbwe 1m:2f and 11 mpimbwe f1 **** about2-3 inches and 5x 2.5-3" f1 moba and 1 WC male 4.5". So anyways, my question to the experts in this forum... 1)What is the selling value of WCxF1 moba ****? And the F1 females bloodline is not related to the WC male. 2) If they are not related to each other would that consider F1 tankraised? Same questions for mpimbwe. Thanks for viewing


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## Charles (Feb 25, 2003)

atiz311 said:


> Hello, i've been away from frontosa for 3 years now and I just purchased a trio WC mpimbwe 1m:2f and 11 mpimbwe f1 fry about2-3 inches and 5x 2.5-3" f1 moba and 1 WC male 4.5". So anyways, my question to the experts in this forum... 1)What is the selling value of WCxF1 moba fry? And the F1 females bloodline is not related to the WC male. 2) If they are not related to each other would that consider F1 tankraised? Same questions for mpimbwe. Thanks for viewing


WC x F1 = F2. This is how commonly use of the F system in the breeding of fish goes. But it is not the correct one. This discussion has been talked over and over again. I won't go further here. But the F# = the furtherest generation away from the WC parent.

WC x F1 related or not = the price that people are wanting to pay for in your area.


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

1" moba fry recently sold out in my area at $20ea...my ad to sell 2-3" moba at $35.ea has had little response yet, but i have had offers to buy 1/2" fry of same for $10ea...another private ad, involving a w.c. group of moba, has seen little excitement. seller is asking $100ea. HTH.


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## tirzo13 (May 26, 2004)

Fairfield California?
well you are across the freeway from me, so you pretty much know the prices here in the bay area.
BLue Zaire are running about 25 for fry.
Mpimbwe fry? well good luck getting rid of them for 5 bucks each.

For fish hobbyist purposes, when crossing adults the generation of the fry (f number) is the next number after the parent with the higher number.
example
WC dad, + F2 mom= F3.
generations can't go backwards, your son can't be a generation number less than the father or mother.

thats for hobbyist purpose, but really anything other than WC/F0, F1 and F2 should just be called TR tank raised, or CR captive raised.

In genetic terms which just confuses buyers, anything not related is F1 fry.
So in genetic terms, you could cross F10 from india, with a unrelated F5 from new york and get F1.
Remember, the plants Mendel used where not wilds.

Both systems are not perfect for selling fry.
The "correct" genetic system would mislead people. because unrelated fish of any generation equals F1.
The "incorrect" hobbyist system gives imperfect results.
example how is WC + F3 equal F4? when F3 + F3 also equals F4?
Which "F4" would you rather have?

The hobbyist system is the best we have, since we all have to have proper labels for everything.


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## tirzo13 (May 26, 2004)

As far as quality of fry vs. price.

There is not much of a dollar difference between F1 and F2 fry.

example mpimbwe fry of F1 will be about 5 bucks, F2 would be the same price, as they have bottomed out on price,like burundi and kigoma.
burundi and kigoma F1 price would be 5 bucks, tank raised will still be 5 bucks.

Because Zaire have a higher price range, there is a bit more PLAY in the price F1 vs. F2 or later.
so say F1 runs about 20-30 for moba, kitumba, kapampa.
F2 would be 15-25.

really though, if the F2 are popping with color and solid stripes, and the F1 zaire are faded with mooning, don't expect to see that price range.
really there won't be much price difference, just that most people will search out lower number generations, so F1 will be in more demand, thus easier to sell.
but if you have quality fish, and people see them, they will sell no matter the generation.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

tirzo13 said:


> ...BLue Zaire are running about 25 for fry...


That's about what I am seeing too ($25 each). Did have a group of 20 F1 Kapampa fry (1.5") go for $35 each a few months back but since then I have seen the price drop off.


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## atiz311 (Jan 29, 2009)

Thanks all for the update. Oh yeah, Why are the prices going down for gibberosa? Is it because its getting common in the fish hobby or the demands are not there because many dont know about them?


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

atiz311 said:


> Thanks all for the update. Oh yeah, Why are the prices going down for gibberosa? Is it because its getting common in the fish hobby or the demands are not there because many dont know about them?


I think it is supply and demand at work. For the Tanzanians, they are relatively cheaper are more people have them and are breeding them. In addition, you have to slow economy at work too.

Now the Zaire varients are more expensive and they are harder to breed than the Tanz varients. Although everything is subject to supply and demand. In general, I think the Zaires will hold their value a little better than the rest.

One thing that may help the F1 market is that wild caught Tangs are not comming into the country like they used to (due to the current world economic situation). I see this as helping the F1 market and I am starting to see some evidence of that.


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## tirzo13 (May 26, 2004)

burundi, kigoma had been the "entry level" frontosa.
the price for fry of those types have been at the 5-10 price for about 5 years.
Mpimbwe was the "mid level" frontosa.
but now it is running about the same price as the entry level, 5-10 bucks.

all NON ZAIRE BLUE types have bottomed out, F1 or F10.
they are not going below 5 bucks for them, at least i hope.
frontosa have about 20 babies, 3 or 4 times a year.
fish like angels or calvus have hundreds each time.
guess which makes more money now.

Zaire Blue type prices have gone down because more people have them.
there was a time when they were new.
there was a time when NOBODY could breed them.

there are more of them, and more people are breeding them.
so the price has dropped from 50 per fry to 20-25.
they will reach 15 by next summer.

mpimbwe went the same way.
when mpimbwe first were being bred, the fry were 30, now they are 5 like all the others.

supply is up.
and the economy sucks, but still the zaire price on fry will drop further.


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

Razzo said:


> One thing that may help the F1 market is that wild caught Tangs are not comming into the country like they used to (due to the current world economic situation). I see this as helping the F1 market and I am starting to see some evidence of that.


 i've seen w.c. come in at less than 5" too. that should help TR compete for demand, IMO.

it is really up to all sellers to fix the wally trend. if basement breeders refuse to hold a fair price as firm, then true breeders will go above them, and produce something outstanding, to fetch a price worth the effort. we all know the eventual outcome...the next frontosa to command a decent value will be a hybrid.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

tirzo13 said:


> ...they will reach 15 by next summer...


I don't agree (IMHO). I think the economy has had a bigger impact. Ultimately, they are much harder to breed than the rest and you usually get less fry. If we do see $15, I think it will be because of a severe global recession. Either case, I hope it ain't so.


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## tirzo13 (May 26, 2004)

All fish come down in price, no matter what the economy is doing.
the reason fish start high is because nobody has them, then few are breeding them so less fry.

it has happened with all frontosa types.
i gave the mpimbwe example, it was dropping when the economy was great.

price of zaire fry was dropping when the economy was great.

there was a time when nobody had Zaire blues, and nobody was breeding them, thus the fry cost alot.
Now there are plenty of people with them, so of course the price goes down.
the economy problems may have speeded up the decline in price, or buyers available, but its the fact that plenty of people have them and are breeding them that has dropped the price, just like mpimbwe when the economy was good.

Albino cyps are worth alot of money because only a couple people have them.
once they start breeding in numbers, they will be slightly more than non albinos.
just like albino paracyps vs. regular paracyps.

more people with a certain fish means more breeders, means more fry and supply.
the economy makes it worse, but the price would drop anyway.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Of course, I agree with the principles of supply and demand. With that said, I think the decline in price of Zaire fry will be slower than the rest due to the dificulty in breeding them.

On another note: there are a lot of WC Moba in the US and, on the flip side, not as much kapampa (due to the economics of collecting them). There are not a lot of people breeding kapampa right now. Will Kapampa sell for more than their Zaire counterparts (demand will answer that, I think I am seeing it).

Other factors impacting price will be the availability of wild caught fish from the lake; which, we are heading into a VERY low (to almost no) supply cycle for any Tang (let alone the Zaire varients).

So, I agree about S&D, I just think the Zaires won't drop as fast as others have. Due to the economics of collecting Kapampa, they just may hold their value a little longer than the rest.

Oh well, that's just my two cents. Interesting topic though.


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## tirzo13 (May 26, 2004)

Zaire have the most coloration so they have the increased demand.
they are harder to breed, and less have them, so due to those factors, this price will be higher then the others.
for how long, who knows, but here in the bay area, we are pretty close to hitting $15 for the fry of Zaire.
now we have alot of zaire breeders in the bay area, and many that ship, but i realize what happens in not indicative of the rest of the world, though i do think we do set the later tone price wise.

the price variety of zaire is interesting.
Kapampa do seem to be the hardest to breed between moba, kitumba, and kapampa.

moba still leads in demand however.
so kapampa sellers really only advantage would be to those who simply prefer and want kapampa over moba or kitumba.
I have had plenty of people say they want moba, and not even consider kitumba, or kapampa fry.
its a name thing, and moba leads the pack for the general Zaire wants.
those true long standing zaire fans will want the kapampa or kitumba over moba, due to them being more rare right now.

so for desire, its overall demand of moba vs. the scarcity and difficulty in breeding of kapampa.

if the "new" zaire crew realized that kapampa was harder to breed, and less available then moba, they would want kapampa like the rest of us longer term zaire owners.

but moba is what their friends have, and moba is more of a buzz word, so thats what they want.

another example of how things are.

few people have mikula and kalumba, the most recent new blue zaire.
they are scarce, but few people are demanding these fry, so the fry is actually the same or less then the "common" moba.

its the name value, rather than the availability value.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Thanks for the analysis. Seems sound.

I have been fortunate with my kapampa _"The Original Zaire"_ :wink: and have seen good demand and price based on peoples knowledge of my group. My last batch of kap fry, I sold 20 of them for $35 each (this is while AB prices were dipping into the low 20's). I sold a group of 4-inchers for $75 each a few months ago. My next couple batches of F1 kap fry are presold. These are all from people who know my group and really like the quality of the fry. I wish, I could produce more :? I hope it continues.

This economy will most likely reduce demand and supply will increase and breeders needing cash will dump inventory to get what they can (can't blame them). We are all in this downward economy together. The unemployment rate in my area is almost 18% (people are hurting real bad  ). I hope and pray it turns around soon.

God Bless,
Russ


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## tirzo13 (May 26, 2004)

i wish we in the bay area could still get those prices.
i'm not willing to ship Zaire, so i have to get what i can in the saturated and/or depressed market we have here.

There is somewhat of a finite group of people to sell frontosa to.
frontosa need big tanks, and most people a 55 is huge.
so not alot of people left who can have huge tanks.

course we can try to convince people to go huge.


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## fiupntballr (Jul 7, 2004)

I wish I could show this thread to the local fish store here in Raleigh....

They have a weird cross bred front that they are selling for 80 dollars....

They said the larger one( a 5 inch burundi) in the back was for sale for 500....


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

fiupntballr said:


> I wish I could show this thread to the local fish store here in Raleigh....
> 
> They have a weird cross bred front that they are selling for 80 dollars....
> 
> They said the larger one( a 5 inch burundi) in the back was for sale for 500....


Hey, please ask that petstore if they want to buy some f1 kapampa from me - I'll give you commission :lol:

To give you an idea of how much markup "can" show up in a LFS:
- An Emp 400 is about $17 from the factory to a distributor (maybe a few bucks more).
- The distributor marks it up to the LFS.
- The LFS marks it up to you.
- I once saw, last year, an Emp 400 for sale for about $130 in a LFS near Midway Airport in Chicago  I am sure Drs Foster & Smith you could get it much cheaper than that.

Something to think about.

Russ


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## tirzo13 (May 26, 2004)

LFS have to markup to make a profit.
even then i wonder how they stay in operation.

A $100 medium burundi type (often cross bred) is not uncommon, course they will give you about 10 bucks for the fish.
a 2 inch burundi will be 20-25 bucks, when backyard breeders can't get that for F1 mpimbwe.

The LFS is not really what i use when i consider the going prices.
I go with what cichlid dealers and backyard breeders sell for.


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