# malawi on its own



## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Hi all just wondering wat the minimum amount of fish to start with is and also is there any bad side to starting out with just one on its own for a few weeks


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

If your aquarium is fully cycled, either by doing a fish-less cycle, using media from a cycled tank or using a bottled bacteria product AND the water test shows zero ammonia, zero nitrite and a nitrate reading over 10ppm, you can usually stock with an appropriate amount of fish based on the aquarium size.

If the reason for stocking fish singly or a few at a time is due to financial concerns, then it is possible to do it this way. However, it is usually recommended to add at least 3-6 fish at one time in order to spread out any aggression among all the inhabitants. Juvenile fish will get along with fewer problems than older fish so you may want to consider that option.

Does this answer your questions?

I checked your other post and see you have a Fluval Roma 200L aquarium with tank dimensions of 100x40x55cm. This is equivalent to a 53G tank with dimensions of 39"L x 16"W x 22H".

What species fish are you planning on stocking in this tank?


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

My amonia is.25 nitrite 0 and nitrate was 20 ppm but changed half the water last night I'm using the api test kit and I've heard the amonia test is a bit dodgy my tap water had the same reading thought id get the lfs to double check first though my thoughts for the one fish idea was because I'm a bit doubtfull my tank is okay Evan if the reading say so, just didn't want to spend all that money for them to all die
Will one fish be okay or is there any reason not to start with just one?

Im definitely going for the juveniles not entirely sure I like the electric yellow and the chameleon and the ones with the blue and black vertical stripes not sure wat there all called I guess I like the idea of one each type how many is a good amount fully stocked?


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Demansoni are the ones just looked it up my tank after putting the sand and rock in was 42 gallons of water


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

Are you cycling your tank right now? In other words - what is generating the ammonia?


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

I'm using bottled bacteria fluval cycle biological enhancer it says you can add fish immediately but I haven't yet been cycling with that I also added some fish food thought that would help the bacteria build up duplicate fish being in there I thought


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

If all was fine with the lfs test I thought I would get one tomorrow and see how he gets on for a few weeks before adding an other 5 or so unless there is something wrong about having one on his own like the fish getting sick from being lonely or bored? Not sure if that can happen or not that's why I'm asking


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

fishboy85 said:


> I'm using bottled bacteria fluval cycle biological enhancer it says you can add fish immediately but I haven't yet been cycling with that I also added some fish food thought that would help the bacteria build up duplicate fish being in there I thought


You need ammonia. Buy some pure ammonia at a hardware or cleaning supplies store and dose 3 or so ppm and maintain it there throughout the cycle. Bacteria in a bottle is mainly snake oil IMO.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

I agree - I'm not convinced that this tank is cycled and ready for any fish. There is an article in the library about performing a fishless cycle which is what pablo111 is talking about. Maybe, with the bacteria you added the cycle will go quicker. Make sure to get ammonia without any additives (get plain old ammonia)


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

Alternatively, if you are impatient and don't want to wait 3-5 weeks for the aquarium to cycle, you can get a large quantity of established filter media from someone else's aquarium and use that to jump start your biological filtration. It's what I've always done.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

I would hold off on getting any fish until your tank is finished cycling.

I would also not do Demasoni as your first foray into cichlids as they are not really a beginner's fish.


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Is anybody familiar with this product? Fluval claims you can add fish immediately I started using it three weeks,ago instantly sounded too good to be true, any other fish I should stay away from I looked into the fishless cycle but didn't know where to get it from couldn't get from local hardware store and don't have cleaners stores that I know of


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

fishboy85 said:


> Is anybody familiar with this product? Fluval claims you can add fish immediately I started using it three weeks,ago instantly sounded too good to be true, any other fish I should stay away from I looked into the fishless cycle but didn't know where to get it from couldn't get from local hardware store and don't have cleaners stores that I know of


If you can't find ammonia available locally, you will have to order it online. Look for Dr Tim's ammonia.

Still, easier to just get some cycled media from someone.


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Wats wrong with getting demansoni anyway are the more aggressive than the average mbuna


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Here is an article from the Library on keeping Demasoni It may help you understand some of the problems associated with keeping them, especially in smaller tanks.


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Okay cool thanks to everyone for there advise


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Cheers everyone for your help got the ammonia and added it today hoping the bacteria I have been putting in there up until now will help jump star the cycle


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## Demasoni1 (Apr 9, 2014)

Did you ever figure out what you are going to stock it with?


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## brinkles (Jan 30, 2011)

If you like yellow labs and you're new to this, get 8 of them once you know the tank is cycled.


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## mclaren880 (May 20, 2012)

I cycled both of my tanks the good old fashioned way, but i hear Tetra SafeStart is actually legit. I read a lot about it a while back, and it sounds like other brands use a different type of bacteria, and that can cause issues with allowing the kind that occur naturally (the kind you need over the long run) to grow. Safestart uses the actual bacteria that will occur naturally as well (I think they have a patent, and that's why they're the the only ones that use it). Patience is important with cycling. I was impatient with my first tank, and I ended up doing 50% daily water changes and dosing with prime every day for the first couple weeks. Not the most ideal way to start in the hobby. Had I waited even one more additional week, i probably would have been just fine and it would have been a less stressful start.

And yeah, Demasoni... They're beauties (one of my favorites, if not my #1 cichlid), but can be a pain. I'd also say you'll have more fun if you start with a less aggressive fish. I have a 75g with Demasoni and yellow Labs now, but this is after learning the hard way with an unsuccessful attempt at keeping them in the beginning.


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

The ammonia I added seamed to start getting things going I have a nitrite reading for the first time it's reading one and ammonia is at 2.4, still not tottaly sure wat fish yet I think I'm still getting labs and maybe the blue zebra I would like different colours ideally any thoughts on the zebra would like something blue as well as yellow and maybe something red


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## mclaren880 (May 20, 2012)

Blue Zebras are solid. Other people may be able to tell you if this is actually an issue, but they're on the bigger side for mbuna... LiveAquaria says 6". My guess is that wouldn't be a deal breaker, but smaller cichlids might be something to consider.

What's available in your area? This pretty much dictates what I put in my tanks. Unless you're having a store order them or something for you, then you'll have a lot more options. Keeping with my suggestion of smaller fish (which you probably don't have to follow, if you don't want to), Salausi are cool, White Top Hara and Afras are cool, as well. But have a look on Craigslist as well as your LFS, see what your options are.


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Nitrite is up today off the scale impact bright purple, there are red tops at the shop as well as crabos but I here they get a bit big at the shop it just says 4 inches


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

fishboy85 said:


> I think I'm still getting labs and maybe the blue zebra I would like different colours ideally any thoughts on the zebra would like something blue as well as yellow and maybe something red


Blue and yellow you can definitely achieve. Several options there. You won't find a true red among mbuna in lake malawi - orange is the closest you'll get.


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Blue and yellow is fine 6 Or 8 of two breads good start?


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## Demasoni1 (Apr 9, 2014)

Depends on the breed.


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Labs and blue zebra or something similar to zebra?


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Afro red top


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## mclaren880 (May 20, 2012)

I like Salousi as the females are pretty as well. You get both blue and yellow fish within one species.


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Just looked them up there cool ill have to see if the shop has them what sorta numbers should you keep them in?


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## mclaren880 (May 20, 2012)

I think their pretty much you're typical mbuna... i'd shoot for a 1:3 or 1:5 m:f ratio. You can ask the guys at your LFS if they have any other resources. I mentioned to a guy at mine once i was looking for them, and he told me he bred them at his house. The store didn't have any but he brought a few in for me a few days later. This was at a fish store, however, you may not have as much luck at a general pet store.


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## scooter31707 (Aug 24, 2012)

I want to believe your tank is fully cycled. I bet the cause of your ammonia is your tap water. I am fighting that situation in my city tap water which is .25 ammonia. PM me and I will give you the vendor and product that will help you remove some of that ammonia. Trust I went 4 months thinking my tank was still cycling because of the ammonia reading.


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

I bought a new test kit and it said I had no ammonia in my tank or water supply think my original tester was just expired I decided to add ammonia and do fishless cycle


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

The place I go is a garden centre and tbh I dont trust wat they say the guy seames to think it doesnt matter wat you have as long as I have numbers 20 plus fish does that many fish sound alright for a 50 gal with 40 gal of water 39 inch wide


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## mclaren880 (May 20, 2012)

20 sounds like an alright number as long as you're going with smaller fish... 20 6" zebras might be a lot. But maybe other people can speak to this who've had more experience with the larger mbuna.


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

I think *** decided to go for smaller fish 4 inch ish like the saulosi and afra jalo any other ideas or anything against them sharing a tank


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## mclaren880 (May 20, 2012)

It's probably going to be easiest on you if you can avoid cross breeding. I don't see any issues with those 2 fish. When your fish breed (it'll happen at some point) and a couple survive, you'll have to rehome a few every now and then. If you can't say for certain that you don't have crossbred fish, you'll have to give them away. If you can say with certainty that it's a pure strain, you'll be able to make a few bucks off them. So just dont' pick fish that look similar, or fish that are very closely related. Salausi with Afras should be good, but for example, then dont' go with yellow labs as the Salousi females are yellow, as well. Rusties aren't considered "dwarf" but they don't that big, either. They're pretty mellow and usually easy to find.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

How about rusty cichlids and saulosi? The rusties are a purple brown color, the saulosi are blue and black and yellowish orange. You get 3 color patterns for the price of 2. That would be an extremely peaceful tank too. All at 4"


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Well my tank parameters are all OK today nitrites decresed fast the last few days adding more ammonia tonight and going to check all parameters tommorow just to be sure, im considering buying fish online theres a pretty reputable Web site so would think they would be pure strain not sure if they have rustys though the two I mentioned they have though


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## mclaren880 (May 20, 2012)

Yeah if you're going from a website, you probably have the pick of whatever you want for the most part. I just suggested rusties since stores tend to have them. The store or website will likely give you a pure strain, the problems arise in our tanks. If you put 2 different kinds of peacocks in the same tank, you'll get cross breeding since they all look similar and are closely related. The same goes with Mbuna, similar looking fish are likely to crossbreed. If your fish crossbreed, then you won't be able to sell any of the offspring. Some people HATE hybrid fish, but my personal opinion is they aren't that big of a deal as long as you don't sell them and are very upfront with people when you give them away (you can give away any fish, from what i've found). If i put a FREE ad on Craigslist, it doesn't matter what the fish is, i'll have 5 requests with a few hours, every time. However, with just a little extra planning in the beginning, you can have just as cool of a tank, that will at least put a little money back in your pocket for all your trouble.


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

They dont have em on the site I might just get some afras for now im not wanting to fully stock my tank strait away anyway imthinking of getting 8 juveniles to start and probably safer with just one bread than 4 of one and 4 of an other you think? Aggression wise I mean


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Dont have 8 anyway it would seam how would afra do with metriaclima estherae chiofu says there f1 4 of each all juveniles


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## seattle_530 (Mar 6, 2007)

I don't see any issue. Estherae are a different group they get larger than afra and don't look anything alike and are about the same temperament.


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## mclaren880 (May 20, 2012)

Yeah i think you'd be ok. Just keep in mind that unless the seller can sex them, I would consider getting maybe 2.5 times the amount of each you hope to end up with, and then sell the extra males as they start to show themselves. It's easier to just buy them upfront and save on shipping. If you end up with 3 males and 2 females, you'll have some issues, so you need to be able to weed them out. Get a little breeder net to keep in the corner, when you find a 2nd male, seperate him into that, and then sell him off for a little $.


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

The ammonia I added last night seams to have put the nitrites of the scale tonight, thought it would have turned it into nitrates in 24. Hours or might it take longer


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Back in scale tonight at this rate should be gone tomorrow, should it take more than 48 hours to get rid of nitrites it was at zero till I added an other dose of ammonia


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Back to zero again and high nitrates so must be done


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## mclaren880 (May 20, 2012)

The test i use, is to add ammonia to get your levels to 2.0. When your tank can take 2.0 ammonia and have zero ammonia or nitrites 24 hours later, your cycle is done.


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Must be done then I planning on getting some fish tomorrow


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

:dancing: 
Exchange some water right before you add the new fish. Good luck!


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Yeah will do chears


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## mclaren880 (May 20, 2012)

have fun!!! Let us know what you get!


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

I got 14 juvenile red zebras a few are really small ranging from 1"1/4 to 1" 3/4 im happy with them thanx everyone �


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Now that there settled they have started fighting


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## mclaren880 (May 20, 2012)

A little chasing is ok, you just don't want any individual fish to get singled out, and watch out for fish that are hiding near the heater, filter, etc...


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

So far so good they all seam to be doing okay lots of digging going on, got some ether flashing or itching not sure a few are also shimmering I think anyway or small seasures also ether gasping for air or yawning hard to know the difference no ammonia or nitrite natrates around 20


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## jimmie (Oct 23, 2002)

fishboy85 said:


> So far so good they all seam to be doing okay lots of digging going on, got some ether flashing or itching not sure a few are also shimmering I think anyway or small seasures also ether gasping for air or yawning hard to know the difference no ammonia or nitrite natrates around 20


You will be fine, its not hard like a saltwater tank,,, a good water conditioner product is prime,, and some cichlid salt.long as you have a good filter over the amount of the water volume.,, opcorn: kick back and enjoy and do some reading research. :fish:


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

I havent used that yet and hadnt really considered it till just now what are the benefits


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Think ill get some today anyway will it be a bit much putting in full does strait away with the fish in there or will it not be a dramatic enough change to bother them


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Thinking about it I think the lfs only sells the aoi aquarium salt will that do or does it need to be African cichlids salt


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

fishboy85 said:


> Thinking about it I think the lfs only sells the aoi aquarium salt will that do or does it need to be African cichlids salt


If your water is hard enough I wouldn't bother with salt. If it's not Epsom salt (mgso4) is a better way to go and a lot cheaper. General aquarium salt tends to be sodium chloride and to is not good for freshwater fish and plants.


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

I domt Evan know what my gh and kh os the guy in the lfs talked me out of buying a test kit for it said it was a waste of money said there hardy fish and it doesnt mater he said they dont test there tanks for it


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

fishboy85 said:


> I domt Evan know what my gh and kh os the guy in the lfs talked me out of buying a test kit for it said it was a waste of money said there hardy fish and it doesnt mater he said they dont test there tanks for it


Correct me if I'm wrong but you're in Scotland? Afaik the water companies here in the UK list all their parameters on their websites so have a look at your water company's site they should have a full water quality report on there somewhere. If you get stuck link their site here and I'll have a look for you


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

yeah scotland is where i am i didnt know you could do that but so i went on and couldnt figure out wat it all ment never seen kh or gh there 
Turbidity	
Aluminium	
Iron	
Manganese	
E. coli (Faecal coliforms)
Total Trihalomethanesdo


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

Link the report in and I'll see if I can interpret it for you, there should be hardness value listed or at least total dissolved solids


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

How do I link the report in?


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

http://www.scottishwater.co.uk/you-and- ... litysearch


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

Copy the url(web address) from the top bar and paste it into your post. Don't worry if it doesn't turn into a link as long as it's all there I'll sort it this end


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

Posted at the same time lol. I need a postcode to view it pm me if you don't want to post it


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Sent you a message I think Scottish water is soft tbh I have coral sand for my substrate would that not harden it a bit it certainly did a good job of raising my ph went from 7.4 to 8


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

Got it.
The reason you can't find gh/kh measurements is you have none. Your water is very soft 58 microseimens is very low conductivity ideal for discus, apistos and gbrs not so good for africans. You will need to remineralise your water. I'd make my own mix using calcium carbonate and magnesium sulphate both are cheap to buy in bulk. Or buy an of the shelf product. If you want to diy I'll crunch some numbers and come back with a recipe for you.


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Alright cool chears mate I take it the coral in my tank will have no affect then


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

It will to a certain extent but not enough. It's easier for soft water fish to adapt to harder water but not so much going the other way. It's also takes alot less to affect ph in soft water which is why your ph is nice and high with just the coral you may find once start buffering the water your ph will lower slightly. Did you want a buffer recipe or are you going to buy ready made?


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Yes please if its not to complex ill try that


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

You will need 
Magnesium Sulphate 
Calcium Chloride 
Add 2 teaspoons of the calcium chloride and 1.5 teaspoons of the magnesium sulphate per 100 litres of your water and that should give you pretty much similar water to the lake


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Alright cool chears mate add into the water when doing water changes too right? This wont affect my ph I gather


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

Yea you will need to add it to the water that you use for water changes but not to the water that you use for topping up due to evaporation. Shouldn't have a major effect on ph. I would just add it to water change water so the fish get used to it slowly.


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Sweet thats a plan looks like you can get magnesium sulphte at boots do you know where to get calcium chloride from a shop or is online the only option? Are the flakes ok as long as its 100 percent?


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

Not sure I tend to buy dry salts online easy to get value for money I had a quick Google and looks like you can get it fairly cheaply online.
Flakes or powder doesn't matter.


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

__
https://flic.kr/p/nLWCK1


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https://flic.kr/p/nLW2M6


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

https://www.flickr.com/gp/[email protected]/aMK3a7
A few pictures as I just figured out how to post them
Comments?


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

I'd get more rocks in there the higher the piles the more of the tank they'll use. Mine is stacked nearly to the top and the fish use the whole height of the tank.


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

I want to but as it is the make them colapse from digging under them bit nervous if one falls and breaks the tank


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

Put all the base rocks directly onto the bottom or if you're nervous about doing that then get some eggcrate and cut it up and push it through the to the bottom and work the rocks through the sand onto the eggcrate. 
In mine I've used just enough sand to spread the load of the rocks but not enough that the fish can actually dig it out.


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Are your rocks leaning agaist the tank?


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

Touching but not leaning


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

Is your filter and heater hiding behind the plants?


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

Sure are. I have an external filter inlet/output and a 150w eheim jager heater


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

https://www.flickr.com/gp/[email protected]/8i79DE
Afew more rocks added have sime more ill add soon once I sort out the foundation


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## fishboy85 (Apr 26, 2014)

https://www.flickr.com/gp/[email protected]/27998S


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## jimmie (Oct 23, 2002)

More rocks bro...pile it up, get some lace or river rock, Malawi mbunas love hiding spaces..


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