# 36" x 12.5 " x 19" Stocking. Multispecie (vic) if possible.



## Tom Jones

I made a thread in the General Cichlid to know what Cichlids could be kept in my 36" x 12.5 " x 19" tank, and I've been suggested to move to this section at some point since my last questions were more regarding the Victorian fishes. So here I go.

I'm not interested in shellies, nor any Tanganyikans for this tank, and would prefer Africans over SA/CA ones.

I know 36" is limiting when it comes to cichlid, but there is the general idea where in some cases overstocking prevents agression as long as a proper maintenance and filtration is done. I'm not new to aquariums, I have a twenty gallons (planted tropical community tank) and two five gallons (Bettas, snails, shrimps) that have been running for a year and everyone is happy and I never got any casualties. I'm constant on 50% WC on all my tanks every 7 days and I test my AM/NI/NA/PH levels at least twice a week. If Nitrates go over 20-25, I do an extra WC.

In the other thread, I've been suggested Yellow Labs the most, and I've been told they could live with some of the smaller Victorian's mouthbrooders. I've also been said that those Vicatorians could also fit in the general narrative where stocking heavily can reduce agression. I've also seen people suggesting a trio of Yellow Labs + 2 different specimens of Peacocks in a 36" in this forum.

I'm creating this new thread here with a part of my previous message copy/pasted below, as I've been suggested to do since my preferred stocking so far would be either Yellow Labs + 2 species of Victorians (if possible), 2 species of Victorians + 1 Peacock (maybe?), or maybe 3 species of Victorians (maybe 1m/3F each ?) - Anywayws, maybe my expectations are too high and I'm aware it's possible. I hope you will be able to help me get the ideal stocking here (I'd like to avoid having a species tank)

Here is the part of the message that was suggested to be asked in this section :



> _*While I was searching for smallish Victorian-types, I found a bunch that I really liked. I will list those that caught my eyes, could you tell me if some could be kept together and in what amounts/combination ?
> 
> » Paralabidochromis Chromogynos Zue
> » Haplochromis sp. Red Fin Piebald
> » Haplochromis/Paralabidochromis Sauvagei
> » Haplochromis Enterochromis Paropius
> » Pseudocrenilabrus Philander Dispersus
> » Haplochromis Ruby Red
> » Haplochromis Obliquens
> » Pundamilia sp. Red Flank Nansio Bay
> 
> I'd like to know if some of those could be kept with others from the same list, and in what amount if possible.
> 
> 1- Does the heavy stocking idea to reduce aggression also applies to Victorians ?
> 2- Could I mix 2, or even 3, groups from the species above ? Maybe 1m/3F each, or maybe 2m/5f each ? (I read having a non-dominant male helps the dominant one show more colors)
> 3- Could I mix 2 groups of the above Victorians with a group of Yellow Labs or of Lab. Hongi/Sweden ?
> 4. Could I mix 1 group from the list + 1 group of Yellow Labs + 1 smaller size peacock ?
> 5. Or could I put any group from the list with 1 smaller size peacock ? Or one group of Victorians + 2 different specimen of Peacocks ?*_


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## DJRansome

#4 is regarding Malawi.

It may take some time for the experienced Victorian Members to reply. On the earlier post it was asked if you have a vendor that can supply all of these Victorians and West Africans? That may limit your options.


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## OuiBonjour

True, few questions have a link towards the Malawi, as it'd could be and interesting mix to have either Labs or Peacocks with thoss Victorians.

As for the supplier, I didn't want to make posts in Facebook groups asking for each species I like, just to learn afterwards that they can't fit in my stocking/tank.

Did you ask because some in my list are kinda rare or hard to get ?

I know we have a store specialised in Cichlid not far from Montreal. And they seem to be knowledgeable as they also run the Youtube Page Quebec Cichlides, which seems to have good information.

Also, when you said to Post under Other Cichlid I did not find that sectiom, but I believe you meant this section here. The long time before a reply, is it because there are less member hanging around here ?

Thanks again DJ !


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## DJRansome

OuiBonjour...the OP on this thread is TomJones...correct?

A wait of a couple days used to be the norm...but especially in the Victorian section because the Mods...who know the Victorians well, don't log on as often because there are not as many Victorian posts.

A shame to do a lot of work and settle on a species only to find out you can't get them anywhere and have to start over. Yes, I look for Victorians on the "usual" suppliers often and I don't recall seeing some of the ones TomJones has listed.

One way to do this is view the availability list for the vendor you have chosen. Then you don't have to disturb the vendor to choose among the fish that are available.


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## Tom Jones

Sorry for the confusion, OuiBonjour is my previous account that for some reason I was not able to connect to anymore from my computer. My previous message was posted via my phone, and it seems like that account was still logged in there. I'll log off OuiBonjour from my phone and keep only this account in order to not cause any more confusion lol.

That being said, I agree with what you said and your idea of simply looking at availability of vendors first and then check if they could fit in my tank and if they'd be compatible together. That's a good idea, however I might not be able to start this aquarium right now as I have a few other things to do before so, as well as some financial limitation, so while I wait and can't buy anything I thought it would be a good idea to ask my questions so that I could make a better or easier choice when I'll be able to afford the modifications of my supporting unit and the purchase of the fish.

I'm sorry if I ask lot of questions in advance, however everything I learned through you guys is not lost in a void : it is precious to me and I like to know the more I can on a subject before I even start shopping. It is common belief already that people at LFS are willing to tell you anything in order to make a buy, but I've learned recently that a lot of fish breeders in my area do the same. One was trying to sell me 12 Cyps for my 36" when I was shopping for my Tanganyikan tank, and even though I told him I've been told by anyone that Cyps needed more than 36", and that Paracyps would be better, he was like "Oh, yeah.... the Internets, lol" just because he wanted to sell those cyps and didn't have paracyps. Anyways, sorry for the long novel, I just wanted to give an example of why I like to learn the most I can before starting a conversation with some vendors.

Also, I agree that it could be frustrating to settle for a good stocking and find out that nobody has them, but if it's the case I think I'd stick with my ideal stocking and postpone my purchases until I find what I truly want hehe

For the rest of your message, I understand that it's not everyone that is on a forum each and everyday, and I'm okay with the wait. I'm in no hurry at all


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## DJRansome

I would not buy Victorians from the LFS. There are a lot of hybrids out there.

While you wait, access each species in which you are interested in the profiles and read any articles or cookie cutter tanks that feature them.


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## Tom Jones

Oh, don't worry : I will not buy any cichlid from a fish store. I talked about them in my previous post but it was to say that even though we know they lie to sell, I found some personal breeder to lie as much. But I'll always prefer to deal with a breeder anyways!

I'm looking at the most possible articles I can find on species I like, but I find the forum's profile page descriptions a little short, and it seems like I don't find as much other online articles about specific Victorian cichlids (compared to other Africans). I find a lot of articles about their need and tank requirement when kept alone or within their species, but it's hard to then calculate the needed size when speaking of community tank, or bi-species tank - as well as the amount of each species.

I love the information I get here, as you guys use all the information you gathered over the years and mix it with up with personal experience.


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## Tom Jones

DJRansome said:


> One way to do this is view the availability list for the vendor you have chosen. Then you don't have to disturb the vendor to choose among the fish that are available.


I started checking, and so far these are the Victorians that are available on a regular basis : Obliquidens, Flameback, Fulu, Fire Uganda, Ruby Green, Matumbi, Calliptera, Chromogynos, Macrocephala.

Since I didn't know about a bunch of the Victorians in the list of available ones, I quickly googled the ones I didn't know and checked their look and size. I didn't read on their temper yet. So far it goes like that :

*- Obliquidens :* I like them, but I remember you told me they might be too agressive, especially with Peacocks and pacific Haps. So probably out of the list. 
*- Flameback :* Didn't know about them, but I like them even though they might be too big (?)
*- Fulu :* I like them. 
*- Fire Uganda :* I like them too. 
*- Ruby Green :* They were already one of my favorites. Love them. 
*- Calliptera :* I like them, but I read they're actually Malawi. Not sure if that can be an issue. 
*- Chromogynos :* My favourite. I love them. Hope they can be part of my tank. 
*- Macrocephala :* Didn't know about them. They look real nice.
+
* - Paralab. Sauvagei :* (not part of the list from my potential vendor but I like them and feel like I could find them)

So I guess I'll have to choose among those. (I removed the Matumbi as I don't like them that much)

If possible, I'd like to know which could fit in my tank, which (if any) could be mixed with either other species in the list or with *Yellow Labs* or *single Peacocks. *.

I already had checked all the females of my previous list, to see if some species would be incompatible due to their female looking the same. Among those in the new list available :

*Paralab. Sauvagei :* Yellow
*Chromogynos :* Black & White, but Piebald 
*Obliquidens :* Black & White, but Striped 
*Ruby Green :* Silver/Gray

Now I just checked for the females of the other ones available from my vendors :

*Flameback :* Silver/Gray
*Fulu :* Silver/Gray
*Fire Uganda :* Silver/Gray
*Caliptera :* Silver/Gray
*Macrocephala :* Was hard to find, but they seem mostly Silver/Gray (with very pale stripes)

So it seems like I cannot mix any of those together to avoid hybridization : Flameback, Fulu, Fire Uganda, Caliptera, Macrocephala, and Ruby Green.

Not sure if this applies to Chromogynos and Obliquidens (since they have gray/white, but have patterns) and Macrocephala (since mostly gray, but have very pale pattern)

Also Sauvagei should probably not be mixed with Yellow Labs for the same reason.

So, from what I know so far, if I want to mix more than one species (and if it's possible in my tank) and want to avoid hybrids, my compatibility list (female-wise) would be :

*Sauvagei Compatibility :* Anything except yellow labs 
*Chromogynos Compatibility :* Sauvagei, Yellow Labs (not sure about silver/gray females, not sure about Obliquidens)
*Obliquidens Compatibility :* Sauvagei, Yellow Labs (not sure about silver/gray females, not sure about Chromogynos)
*All species in the Silver/Gray category :* Sauvagei, Yellow Labs (not sure about Obliquidens and Chromogynos)

*Yellow Labs Compatibility :* Anything except Sauvagei
*Peacocks* : I have no idea (there are so many + Not even sure they'd be compatibles nor be too big)

(The above list is only based on the female ressemblance, I don't know about they temper compatibility, and other incompatibilities, and it's where I need your help)

Sorry for the long novel again, I just wanted to shorten the list


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## james1983

Your tank is on 36", I wouldn't think there would be enough room for more than one species.


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## Tom Jones

I read that sometimes heavy stocking of a cichlid tank could reduce agression, as it creates distraction for the males, limiting their ability to create a territory and their breeding urges. However I mostly read this about Mbunas : this wouldn't work with Victorians ?

And if I go with only one specie, would any of the above species work ? And how many should I put, and in which M/F ration ?

Also, could a single male Peacock live with one specie ? Or a single male of another specie of Victorians ?

I'm sorry for all the questions, hope you don't mind.


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## DJRansome

Even with a single species, you would overstock to the correct level and not just stuff the tank with fish.

IME single male Victorians do not color well, so what would be the point?

I would do the fulu or the ruby greens. Start with 12 unsexed and see what happens with the males...remove them until the colony seems happy.


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## BC in SK

Tom Jones said:


> So, from what I know so far, if I want to mix more than one species (and if it's possible in my tank) and want to avoid hybrids, my compatibility list (female-wise) would be :
> 
> *Sauvagei Compatibility :* Anything except yellow labs
> *Chromogynos Compatibility :* Sauvagei, Yellow Labs (not sure about silver/gray females, not sure about Obliquidens)
> *Obliquidens Compatibility :* Sauvagei, Yellow Labs (not sure about silver/gray females, not sure about Chromogynos)
> *All species in the Silver/Gray category :* Sauvagei, Yellow Labs (not sure about Obliquidens and Chromogynos)
> 
> *Yellow Labs Compatibility :* Anything except Sauvagei
> *Peacocks* : I have no idea (there are so many + Not even sure they'd be compatibles nor be too big)
> 
> (The above list is only based on the female ressemblance, I don't know about they temper compatibility, and other incompatibilities, and it's where I need your help)


I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that rock kribensis (_ Paralidiochromis suavagei_) is some how more similar to yellow labs because of a little bit of yellow coloration. Mbuna are more likely to hybridize with other mbuna (or peacocks, or the other Haplochromines endemic to lake Malawi). Having larger groups or at least a number of females per male, lessens your chance of producing hybrids, but all endemic Malawi Haplochromine have a fairly high chance of cross breeding if they are kept together in the same tank, because they are all closely related. The only way to be certain that they do not ever cross breed is to keep no more then 1 species per tank especially considering a female can sometimes breed with 2 ore more males in the same spawn.
"Victorian-types" are more likely to crossbreed with other "Victorian -types", even if their females happen to look a little different to are eyes. And while crosses of "Victorian -types" with Malawi cichlids might produce viable offspring (??), there are very, very few reported cases of it. The resulting offspring should be more obviously hybrid, then crossing more closely related species.
These fish get called Victorians, not because they necessarily come from lake Victoria, as most in the hobby do not, but because lake Victoria has the largest number of species of Haplochromine fish with a similar size and body shape and these kinds became associated with lake Victoria as apposed to the Haplochromines endemic to lake Malawi which come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. _Astatotilapia calliptera_ https://www.fishbase.de/summary/6707 while it is found around the mouths of rivers on the southern end of lake Malawi , it is not endemic to lake Malawi as it is also found in rivers as well as lake Chilwa and lake Chiuta. In all likelyhood it would have much greater chance of hybridizing with other members of it's genus (such as _Aststtotilapia latifasciata_) then it would with endemic lake Malawi ciclids.
I'd agree, zebra obliquidens (_Aststatotilapia latifasciata_) is an aggressive species. So is _Astatotilapia burtoni_, IME. _Astatotilapia bloyeti_, not so much, and should do fine in a decent size group in a smaller tank, IMO, though not too sure they would even be available these days. These 3 species make up my experience with "Victorian-types" (none of which come from lake Victoria) So I'd be speculating on any of the other species. In the past, seen a few people keep Egyptian mouth brooders (_Pseudocrnilibrus multicolor_) successfully in very small tanks, but they were always species tanks and not too sure how well they would mix with other species. Rock kribensis (_Paralibidochromis suavagei_) have seen them mixed in many Malawi tanks with out problems and think it likely they are less aggressive then zebra obliquidens, though I have never personally kept them.
There is never any guarantee with cichlids nor any way of for telling the future. The smaller the tank, the worse your odds of succeeding will be. Choose less aggressive specie and stock with sufficient numbers and you may have a decent chance. Encounter aggression problems at some future point might require removing an aggressor or a picked on fish. IMO, start out with at least 6-8 or more per species. You need sufficient numbers, especially in small tanks. A trio might have decent chance of working out well in a 180 gal., but it has fairly slim odds in 40 gal. for pretty much any mouth brooder.


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## Tom Jones

DJRansome said:


> Even with a single species, you would overstock to the correct level and not just stuff the tank with fish.
> 
> IME single male Victorians do not color well, so what would be the point?
> 
> I would do the fulu or the ruby greens. Start with 12 unsexed and see what happens with the males...remove them until the colony seems happy.


I knew that males of some species of Victorian did not color when alone, but I thought that maybe some would. My bad.

My girlfriend really like the Ruby Greens, we could consider them if we have to go with a single species tank. I know you told me in the other thread that Red Fin Piebald were too agressive to share a small tank, but would they work in a species only tank ? If they'd work, I might prefer them over the Ruby and Fulu as their female is not gray. I'd also love the Chromogynos in a species only tank, but I read that males need to be separated at 2", otherwise they go on killing spree. Maybe that'd be the case with Red Fin Piebald too, as you said they were pretty aggressive.

I've seen dither fish suggested often on the forum, like Tiger Barbs (mostly with Yellow Labs or Peacocks) - Could it be beneficial / feasible with Victorians ?

PS : I'm not completely decided on Victorians yet, as I found old posts on the forum that suggested some 36" Malawi combinations that I liked. I would like to discuss some of the stocking suggestion I've seen. Would it be better if I open a new post under the Malawi section, or I should ask my questions in my previous post under General Cichlids ?


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## Tom Jones

BC in SK said:


> I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that rock kribensis (_ Paralidiochromis suavagei_) is some how more similar to yellow labs because of a little bit of yellow coloration.


I must have incorrectly extrapolated when told to avoid species with females of similar color. Even though mbunas and the rock kribensis are not in the same genome, I thought it might have been a possibility that they hybridize because their females were both yellow. Thanks for the correction and the explanation.



BC in SK said:


> There is never any guarantee with cichlids nor any way of for telling the future. The smaller the tank, the worse your odds of succeeding will be. Choose less aggressive specie and stock with sufficient numbers and you may have a decent chance. Encounter aggression problems at some future point might require removing an aggressor or a picked on fish. IMO, start out with at least 6-8 or more per species. You need sufficient numbers, especially in small tanks. A trio might have decent chance of working out well in a 180 gal., but it has fairly slim odds in 40 gal. for pretty much any mouth brooder.


Yeah, I'm all about textual information at the moment but I'm sure it will be once I have the fish in my tank that I'll see how it really is :lol:

I want to avoid making errors, but I guess sometimes errors are beneficial as they make you learn and contribute to our experience. I'm still looking for my perfect stocking, but one thing for sure is that I'll get myself a back-up/hospital tank before I get the fish, whatever the specie(s)!


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## DJRansome

Tom Jones said:


> I'm not completely decided on Victorians yet, as I found old posts on the forum that suggested some 36" Malawi combinations that I liked. I would like to discuss some of the stocking suggestion I've seen. Would it be better if I open a new post under the Malawi section, or I should ask my questions in my previous post under General Cichlids ?


Do not open a new post. You need the people who have experience mixing Victorians with each other or with Malawi and they are more likely to hang out here. If you see old posts outlining suggestions, reply to each one and Members can chime in.


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## Tom Jones

Okay thanks! However the new stocking suggestions that I found are pretty much only Malawis. Also, some posts are as old as 2005.


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## DJRansome

So no more Victorians?

If you don't see many success stories about Malawi mixes in a 36" tank in the last 15 years and you can't get anyone to recommend one in spite of a plethora of recent posts, that tells you something right there.


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## Tom Jones

I'm still interested in Victorians too. I just can't decide at the moment since I saw some other interesting avenues that I'd like to know more about.

Some posts were old, some were more recent. Also, a lot of the said suggestions were made by you hehe

I know that people change opinions over time, dont get me wrong. But that's why I wanted to refresh those suggestions and see if the people who made them a few years ago changed their mind since then.

I could PM you the suggestions I got that came from you if you want, maybe we could discuss them there instead of reviving old posts 

But don't worry about me asking about all fishes at the same time, the info does not go to waste. At the moment I only have a 40 gallon available, but I'm passionate about the hobby and all the information I get will serve me in a future tank for sure. If I choose to go with Victorians, it's certain I will want to do a Malawi afterwards, and the same applies if I go with Malawis. I also gathered a lot of information about Tanganyikans with my previous account, and I still love them and will put to practice everything you guys told me when I'll make a tank of 'em.

I know sometimes I might sound annoying, but I take every advice in serious consideration and I love discussing the compatibility of these fishes with you guys - and I truly appreciate the time all of you take to reply to me (and others). I'm just a little too perfectionist, in a way that I want to know everything before making a choice - Sometimes I think I might have some autistic traits on this, even though I'm only like this with things that passionate me!


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## Tom Jones

PS : Since I saved the URL of all the posts that an had interesting stocking suggestion (plus was backed by at least another member in the Post), I thought about making a new post with a list of said suggestions with a link towards their original post, and then tag their respective author asking them if they would still suggest me the same stocking today, or on the opposite if they'd not recommend it anymore. I thought it was a good idea in my head, but now that I'm phrasing it I realize it might be annoying to do so.


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## DJRansome

Keep this post available for Victorian experts who might respond. I have noticed that sometimes if there are lots of replies (even your own) people might think you have your answers and not post.

If there are old posts just reply to them and ask. The original member may not be around, but current Members can comment.

Please do not make a new post.


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## BC in SK

DJRansome said:


> If you don't see many success stories about Malawi mixes in a 36" tank in the last 15 years and you can't get anyone to recommend one in spite of a plethora of recent posts, that tells you something right there.


The vast majority of recommended stocking on this forum that gets adopted are never documented because once the OP has stocked his/her tanks, the majority are never heard from again. No up dates. A few stick around, but often they end up changing their stock in short order. And there won't be any examples of 3 ft. tanks because these people are always get turned away with the advice on this forum, that it cannot possibly work, so they go some where else or avoid internet fish forums altogether. I've seen it work many, many times in 40 breeders over the years. Pretty common size tank for mbuna back in the '70's or 80's, IME. 
Here's one example of a recommendation from Sam Bonstein: http://www.borstein.info/profiles/victoria/paralabsauvag.html Rock kribensis in a 40 gal. and Malawi as the recommended tank mate.
I've utilized 3 ft. tanks in the past for cichlid communities/species tanks but wouldn't today only because I have enough larger tanks. I've got bigger tanks (180, 150, 125) and wouldn't utilize a 40 gal. for anything other then for a fry tank. But if i were starting out and had nothing larger, don't see why I wouldn't attempt to keep 4-5" mouth brooders in them. As far as the 3 "Victorian -types" I have kept (_Astatotilapia latifasciata_, _A. bloyeti_ and _A. burtoni_), IME they are all compatible enough with mbuna, though i have not kept them long term together in smaller tanks (only briefly) so i cannot personally recommend specific mixes in a 40 gal.


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## Tom Jones

DJRansome said:


> Keep this post available for Victorian experts who might respond. I have noticed that sometimes if there are lots of replies (even your own) people might think you have your answers and not post.
> 
> If there are old posts just reply to them and ask. The original member may not be around, but current Members can comment.
> 
> Please do not make a new post.


Understood.

I thought about that too, like when it shows that the last reply is someone knowledgeable, they might assume it has been answered.



BC in SK said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you don't see many success stories about Malawi mixes in a 36" tank in the last 15 years and you can't get anyone to recommend one in spite of a plethora of recent posts, that tells you something right there.
> 
> 
> 
> The vast majority of recommended stocking on this forum that gets adopted are never documented because once the OP has stocked his/her tanks, the majority are never heard from again. No up dates. A few stick around, but often they end up changing their stock in short order. And there won't be any examples of 3 ft. tanks because these people are always get turned away with the advice on this forum, that it cannot possibly work, so they go some where else or avoid internet fish forums altogether. I've seen it work many, many times in 40 breeders over the years. Pretty common size tank for mbuna back in the '70's or 80's, IME.
> Here's one example of a recommendation from Sam Bonstein: http://www.borstein.info/profiles/victoria/paralabsauvag.html Rock kribensis in a 40 gal. and Malawi as the recommended tank mate.
> I've utilized 3 ft. tanks in the past for cichlid communities/species tanks but wouldn't today only because I have enough larger tanks. I've got bigger tanks (180, 150, 125) and wouldn't utilize a 40 gal. for anything other then for a fry tank. But if i were starting out and had nothing larger, don't see why I wouldn't attempt to keep 4-5" mouth brooders in them. As far as the 3 "Victorian -types" I have kept (_Astatotilapia latifasciata_, _A. bloyeti_ and _A. burtoni_), IME they are all compatible enough with mbuna, though i have not kept them long term together in smaller tanks (only briefly) so i cannot personally recommend specific mixes in a 40 gal.
Click to expand...

I noticed that as well, when people get an answer the post just dies, not even a thank you. I think it's rude, you guys are not paid to answer our questions and you take a lot of your personal time to do so. Rest assured that once I set this tank I ask so many questions about, I'll keep you posted on how it goes!

As for the suggestions I found, I tried to bookmark only those that were suggested by someone who seemed to me like an knowledgeable member of the forum. For example I know that DJRansome has always given me great advices since my debut here, so when I saw a suggestion coming from him I bookmarked it, and if he went against someone else's recommendation I scratched that one. I also bookmarked some suggestions that were made by moderator, so I assume - I still might be wrong, we never know lol - that they were pretty knowledgeable as well. Finally, I also took advice that were quoted and approved by others a little bit more seriously as well.

You might see some of these old thread pop around if you're following the Malawi section as well !

And I understand what you meant when you say you might stock 40B differently if you only had access to it than you are right now with access to way bigger tanks. I plan on getting bigger myself in the future, but I'm financially restricted at the moment. I hope I'll get experience from this tank and don't make any grave mistakes (but I ask a lot of questions, so I might be okay at the end :lol: ).


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## Tom Jones

BC in SK said:


> Tom Jones said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is never any guarantee with cichlids nor any way of for telling the future. The smaller the tank, the worse your odds of succeeding will be. Choose less aggressive specie and stock with sufficient numbers and you may have a decent chance. Encounter aggression problems at some future point might require removing an aggressor or a picked on fish. IMO, start out with at least 6-8 or more per species. You need sufficient numbers, especially in small tanks. A trio might have decent chance of working out well in a 180 gal., but it has fairly slim odds in 40 gal. for pretty much any mouth brooder.
Click to expand...

Hey again! Even though I'm still "shopping around" in different lakes, I'm still having a strong interest in Victorian Haps.

Sorry if I haven't replied to your replies in other post, but I'm short on time at the moment.

I'm starting to get the idea that a dual-species tank with Victoria Lake cichlids might not be a good ideal. I'm able to take some chasing and fighting, but if I can avoid seeing major injuries I would feel better - Especially my girlfriend who does know I'm looking at fish that I describe to her as «kinda more aggressive than our Black Skirt Tetras», I'm pretty sure she'd be terrified to see me remove badly injured fish that might not survive their injuries. That being said, I've learned that mixing to groups of Victorian Haps together in a 36" tank might result in exactly that.

So, let's say I go with a single species. Would the fact that they're agressive ones matters as much, since they don't share their tank with intruders ? For example, when we say that Obliquens, or Piebalds, are very agressive : Is it against every other species in the tank, or against their own as well ? An if it's against their own, could a specific ratio with way less males than females be viable ?

I'm asking because my favorite Victorian Hap is the Chromogynos (esp. the Zue Island ones), and I'm still not sure if they're considered agressive. I've been told by DJRansome that the Piebalds were aggressive, but I believe he was referring to the Paralabidochromis sp. "Red Fin Piebald", but I'm still not 100% he wasn't referring to "most piebald Victorians" which would include the Chromogynos.

On the Chromos profile page from Cichlid-Forum, it says they're aggressive, but in an aticle on the same site, written by Greg Steeve, his specimens were on the opposite pretty skittish. Some others say they are aggressive towards their own male once they reach 2 inches, and I've seen other reviews saying they were pretty peaceful in a community tank. So yeah, I don't know what to think, but I love them.

1) I know they're not part of the species you had yourself, but do you have any knowledge on their level of intraspecies aggressiveness ?

2) Now, you said earlier in the post that if I *still* would absolutely go the dual-species route, you suggested to start with 6-8 or more per species. Would that mean that I could go 12-16 if I keep them alone ? As for the ratio, would a 3M/9M ratio (or a 4M/12F) be a good one ?

3) Since one the article on Cichlid-Forum said they could be skittish, would some dither fish like Giant Danios help ?

My next 2 questions are mostly "what ifs" : I know I said I'd go with a species only tank if I go with Victorian Haps, but if the answers to both those questions are no I will stand by my promise. I still consider a tank with only Chromogynos as one of my favorite potential stocking so far. But just in case, here we go :

4) I read in another post that Synondontis Petriocola are often added to Malawi tanks, without the need to lower the amount of mbunas in it. I know I'm comparing oranges to apples here but do you think a few could go there ? Since they'd be 2 or 3, they might not count as another small group lol

5) And while we're there could a smaller 3M/9M Chromos colony do well with a single male specimen of a bigger species ? (I have Peacocks in mind as I love them, but I don't know any "biggies" from Victoria - Maybe there'd be one that could fit and be beautiful at the same time - Or maybe a CA cichlid biggie ? I know a convict would be too aggressive, but maybe a single Firemouth ? Or a more peaceful Dwarf Yellow Convict ?) - Ok, I'm asking this out of pure ignorance and naive curiosity, so sorry in advance if some of my examples of biggies would make absolutely no sense in that setup lol

Like I said, I'm mentally ready to get NO as answers to #4 and #5, and still put a Chromogynos Zue Island species only tank pretty pretty high in my list


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## BC in SK

Tom Jones said:


> So, let's say I go with a single species. Would the fact that they're agressive ones matters as much, since they don't share their tank with intruders ? For example, when we say that Obliquens, or Piebalds, are very agressive : Is it against every other species in the tank, or against their own as well ? An if it's against their own, could a specific ratio with way less males than females be viable ?


First and foremost, in general, cichlids are most aggressive towards their own species. Conspecific aggression is a real thing. That's why you need a group for a species. If you have just 2, one will seek to eliminate the other. In general, even in big tanks, never mind just a 40 gal., one male of a species per tank. A single or many, and you likely don't have room for many. 
In general, this is the hierarchy of aggression:
A)same sex, same species
B) same sex, closely related species
C)opposite sex, same species
d) same sex, distantly related species
E)opposite sex, closely related species
f) opposite sex, distantly related species
But any fish or cichlid in the tank can come into conflict over position in the pecking order. 
When we say a cichlid is very aggressive it is usually not only aggressive towards it's own species but other tankmates, as well.
1) No, I don't.
2)Yes, for 2 species, start out with at least 12-16. Over time, some males will have to be removed. Depending on the species, you may very well end up one male of each.
3)IMO, dithers would not be necessary with yellow labs and some Vics are even more outgoing then mbuna! But if by chance your tank ends up scared or skittish, it wouldn't be hard to add them later. If you go with one species, then the extra bodies might add to the tank, and IMO giant danios would be the best bet to do well in a tank with aggressive cichlids.
4) Not to sure. Never owned many syndontis. Had one for a number of years, but not even sure what species it was (don't think it is one from lake Malawi).
5)Hard to say. Depends on the species and the particular situation of the tank. Never had a 3M/9f colony of chromos in a 40 gal. Not sure there is enough room for 3 male vics of the same species, to begin with. As far as CA, with African mouth brooders, I wouldn't put firemouth with any, unless they are real timid and wimpy. Firemouth is all bluff. When it comes to an actual physical encounter it is fairly likely to lose. A convict will probably do OK regardless of it's position in the pecking order and it has good chance of being the dominant fish, but 40 gal. isn't enough space.


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## Tom Jones

Thanks for your reply. I'm definitely copy-pasting your hierarchy or aggression is a notepad that I'll keep. Very useful information, and at the same time the order makes complete sense.

For question 2, I meant to ask how many fish should I get if I go with _only one_ species. Like, earlier in the discussion you said that if I went with _two_, I should get 6-8 of each, so I wondered how many I should get if I go with a single species tank. Should I double the amount to keep the same total of fish in the tank, or would I go with a different number ?

Also, let's say I do 12 fish total, only one species, and I buy them all at once. Over time I noticed some fighting, how can I know if one is harassed more than the others if they look alike ? Let's say I end up with 4 males from my unsexed juvies : over time one would color up, and the three sub-dominant males would be duller, how do I know when I see fighting if it's always the same getting attacked (thus knowing I should remove him), or if it's always a different one which could mean agression is dispersed and could be tolerated ?

And let's say one is getting a beating in front of me and I decide to remove it right away, I guess once I start fishing with the net they'll all hide and run from cave to cave - I'm afraid at this point I might not know which one was getting attacked just before. Do you have any tips to differenciate them? Or do you simply remove males when they get physical marks of agression like wounds or chewed ? fins (also making them easier to differentiate)

As for #3, I also thought that a single species tank full of Vics would probably not need dither fish, but it was more of an excuse to maybe see a second type of fish in the tank :lol:

5) I thought Firemouths were badboys lol And I would have thought a convict would have been to agressive, even for vics. That shows how much I still need to learn  So none of the two for that tank. I guess no single big boy would fit with them, either they'd be too peaceful thus bullied, or as agressive as the vics then not enough space.

Seems like the best is to go with only the Vics and some Giant Danios. Would you do 12 Vics and 12 Giant Danios, or less Danios ?

Also, would I need more than one emergency tank ? Let's say there's a bullied male, I remove him and put him in the Hospital tank to heal before rehoming him, but then the next day there's another bullied. I think it would not be a good idea to put the second sub-dominant male in the same hospital tank since even though they're both sub-dominant, a fight for dominance will happen between the two and the weaker one will die. Should I keep more than one tank, or use a diviser (or two if I get 3 bullied males) ? And what size of tank would you suggest for those emergencies ? And I guess I should always keep it running with a couple of fish so that it's already cycled when needed ?


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## BC in SK

Tom Jones said:


> I'm definitely copy-pasting your hierarchy or aggression is a notepad that I'll keep.


Keep in mind, it is a generalization. The usual way it works with most cichlids. There is always exceptions or situations where it does not hold true as well as particular species where it does not really apply. For example, IME, auratus is completely unpredictable where it's aggression will be directed. Also need to mention that weight class is an important factor, as generally fish interact and compete with similar sized fish. Misconception that big fish pick on small fish; enough size difference and they are not perceived as a threat. Usually big fish pick on big fish and small fish pick on small fish. Also, coloration and marking patterns, some of the African cichlids are not only closely related, but also look very similar on top of that.


Tom Jones said:


> For question 2, I meant to ask how many fish should I get if I go with _only one_ species. Like, earlier in the discussion you said that if I went with _two_, I should get 6-8 of each, so I wondered how many I should get if I go with a single species tank. Should I double the amount to keep the same total of fish in the tank, or would I go with a different number ?


IMO, 8 would be sufficient as a total number of cichlids. Don't think you really need to stock 16, if your going with one species.


Tom Jones said:


> And let's say one is getting a beating in front of me and I decide to remove it right away, I guess once I start fishing with the net they'll all hide and run from cave to cave - I'm afraid at this point I might not know which one was getting attacked just before. Do you have any tips to differenciate them? Or do you simply remove males when they get physical marks of agression like wounds or chewed ? fins (also making them easier to differentiate)


It comes with experience of keeping cichlids. By watching the tank and seeing if particular fish are getting excessively chased. IF particular fish are hiding all the time, especially if they are trying to hide in the upper areas of the tank. To remove fish, you have to remove decor. You have to look at your fish and note differences in shape, body pattern/marking and coloration. When removing particular fish from a larger group of the same species, I've sometimes caught all of them and placed each in one gallon pales, then examined them each to determine which individuals are the ones to be removed.


Tom Jones said:


> Seems like the best is to go with only the Vics and some Giant Danios. Would you do 12 Vics and 12 Giant Danios, or less Danios ?


IMO, no need to stock more then 4-6 giant danios.


Tom Jones said:


> Also, would I need more than one emergency tank ? Let's say there's a bullied male, I remove him and put him in the Hospital tank to heal before rehoming him, but then the next day there's another bullied. I think it would not be a good idea to put the second sub-dominant male in the same hospital tank since even though they're both sub-dominant, a fight for dominance will happen between the two and the weaker one will die. Should I keep more than one tank, or use a diviser (or two if I get 3 bullied males) ? And what size of tank would you suggest for those emergencies ? And I guess I should always keep it running with a couple of fish so that it's already cycled when needed ?


A 20 gal. should do. Keep a couple dividers on hand just in case you have a need for more then one "emergency space" . Also, you may very well want to remove a holding female to raise fry, at some point.


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## Tom Jones

Thanks for the explanation and the tips.

If I go with vics, I'll probably take 8 Chromogynos and 6 Giant Danios + an extra 20 gallon with some dividers.

If people have other tips or suggestions, feel free to chime in !


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