# Prime's effect on water tests...



## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

So here's the back story. I've been fishless cycling my 55g tank for 37days. I'm using ammonia, and no seeded filter media. Up until yesterday, Nitrites were still off the chart and didn't appear to be dropping. I also had off the chart readings of nitrate. Yesterday, I did I huger water change, and added prime to the new water so to not kill the bacteria. I'm pretty sure I tested my water with a 5-in-1 test strip AFTER the water change and the nitrite pad still turned pink, indicating there was still some nitrite in the water.

Today, I come home from work and check my water with the 5-in-1 again, and... No nitrites. So I pulled out my API kit, and read 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and ~10-20 nitrate. Sounds like I'm cycled, right?

Not so fast... a while back when I first started cycling, I wanted to get a more accurate ammonia reading, so I diluted samples of tank water with some dechlorinated tap water (using prime). I noticed on the first run that every sample that was diluted showed 0 ammonia. I tried again using plain tap water, and got the results I was expecting.

So, I concluded that binding action of the Prime and ammonia makes it so that the ammonia is unreadable on tests (at least, both API drops, and tetra drops). I'm wondering, is it possible that the prime is giving me a false 0 reading now on nitrites? My first thought would be no since I tested after the water change last night and read nitrites... but I tested immediately after the water change, so its possible that by the time I tested, all of the nitrites had yet to react with the prime? And I know the prime doesn't do anything to the nitrate reading because, well, I'm reading some right now.

I also will note that I did a 60-75% water change last weekend as well. The difference being then, I used buckets and added prime to the new water before adding it to the tank, and this time I used a hose and faucet adapter and added enough prime for the entire tank. Last weekend, I was able to detect nitrites 18hrs later. Right now is about 18hrs since the water change, so if I had nitrites, I'm thinking I should be able to detect them now. But I used more prime this time, so idk...but the prime also says to use a 5x normal does to detoxify nitrite, and I definitely didn't use that much...

So... questions:

1: does the prime effect the nitrite test, so that I could have a false 0 reading? I know it effects the ammonia test...

2: if so, how long would I have to wait to be sure the prime's effect has worn off so I'll know what the true reading is again?

Thanks for the help, as always


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

I have not heard of Prime affecting the nitrite test. I just quickly checked their web site and all it mentons is that it may give you false positives on ammonia. I suppose it cause a false *positive* on nitrite, but a false *negative* would be very odd


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## Hthundar (Apr 10, 2009)

"PrimeÂ® also contains a binder which renders ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate non-toxic."

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Prime.html

It's stated on the bottle that it will remove ammonia.










But, IMOP, stay away from those 5 in 1 test strips. They don't give accurate readings anyway. :thumb:


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## Dj823cichild (Mar 30, 2009)

I hate those test strips as well. You can never make out those colors they look too much the same on the chart. At least IMO


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

*MalawiLover:* What do you mean by positive and negative? Positive = detected and negative = not detected?

All I know for sure is that adding prime to water with a known concentration of ammonia will cause the test to show a 0 concentration of ammonia...

*Hthundar:* Interesting... so if I took the label at face value, then ammonia SHOULD read 0 after adding prime because it is "removed", but nitrite and nitrate will still show up on the test because it is only "detoxified". But I thought the ammonia was actually bound into the less toxic ammonium form... so I guess the test kits don't measure ammonium?

*Hthundar and Dj823cichlid:* Don't be bad talkin my test strips  They work perfectly for my intended purpose - that purpose being a quick indicator of the presence of nitrites and nitrates during my fishless cycling. Cheaper, quicker, and more convenient than the drops for this purpose. Notice how I said that after the strip read 0 nitrites, I re-checked all my parameters with the API drops?

I have 3 different test kits now, and I'm not 100% satisfied with any of them for all the testing needs. I don't find the colors of the drip tests any easier to tell apart. But I do know the pH on the 5-in-1 strip doesn't give me the same answer as the drip tests do, and I know enough to trust the drip test over the strip test 

Anyways, lets stay on topic please  I want to talk about prime's effect on the tests, not the test method themselves.


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## Dj823cichild (Mar 30, 2009)

Hey Rhinox if they work for you that's great I just don't like them.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Rhinox said:


> All I know for sure is that adding prime to water with a known concentration of ammonia will cause the test to show a 0 concentration of ammonia...


I just put 3 drops of prime, 7 drops of ammonia and 1 gallon of tap water (chlorinated city water) into a clean inert containerâ€¦ performed an ammonia test using API dropsâ€¦ and I have a positive ammonia reading that appears to be between 4~8 ppmâ€¦

I have been doing water changes a couple of times per week during my fishless cycle using Prime to tap water and I am completely convinced that the Prime has had zero effect on my ammonia/nitrite testsâ€¦

Rhino, you must have done something â€™wrongâ€™â€¦



Hthundar said:


> It's stated on the bottle that it will remove ammonia.


Truth in advertising is a thing of the pastâ€¦

Prime, Ammo-lock, Amequel+, etc, etcâ€¦ â€œDetoxifyâ€


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## wheatbackdigger (May 11, 2008)

Rhinox said:


> So here's the back story. I've been fishless cycling my 55g tank for 37days. I'm using ammonia, and no seeded filter media. Up until yesterday, Nitrites were still off the chart and didn't appear to be dropping. I also had off the chart readings of nitrate. Yesterday, I did I huger water change, and added prime to the new water so to not kill the bacteria. I'm pretty sure I tested my water with a 5-in-1 test strip AFTER the water change and the nitrite pad still turned pink, indicating there was still some nitrite in the water.
> 
> Today, I come home from work and check my water with the 5-in-1 again, and... No nitrites. So I pulled out my API kit, and read 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and ~10-20 nitrate. Sounds like I'm cycled, right?
> 
> ...


I don't have the answers to your questions, but I have some questions of my own.

Why are you doing water changes before the cycle is complete? I personally have only did one fishless cycle, which I never dechlorinated the water nor did water changes until the cycle was complete. Only topped off the evaporated water when needed.

Does the water changes speed up the cycle? I believe it took me around 43 days to cycle a 150g tank maintaining an ammonia reading at 3ppm


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

Rhinox said:


> *MalawiLover:* What do you mean by positive and negative? Positive = detected and negative = not detected?


Exactly. Because of the way prime binds to the ammonia molecule, some test will still read the molecules presense even though it has been bound in a way that renders it harmless to the fish. This ammonia molecule is still available for consumption by the bacteria, but not to harm the fish's tissues. Because the ammonia is still present (albeit a different form) these tests will give a false positive. A false negative meaning the tests show no ammnia present, but there really is.

This can happen with the nitrAte test if the second solution is not shaken really, really well. It is more of a suspension than a solution and if the "perticles" are not in the proper consentration in the trst tube it will not register on the color chart even though it exists. The Nitrate test is a reactive test (the parts react to change color (and therefore have to be in the correct consentrations). The ammonia test is a more passive test. Like litmus paper and the reagent solutions are not suspensions but true solutions so they do not separate out when sitting.



> All I know for sure is that adding prime to water with a known concentration of ammonia will cause the test to show a 0 concentration of ammonia...


This is because of the type of test that API usues for ammonia (Nessler based). API's test measures total ammonia (the presence of the ammonia molecule whether or not its bound to anything else). Some of the other brands of tests use a different method ( I use the Seachem Multitest Ammonia kit if I really need to check ammonia levels) that measure only the free ammonia.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

> I just put 3 drops of prime, 7 drops of ammonia and 1 gallon of tap water (chlorinated city water) into a clean inert containerâ€¦ performed an ammonia test using API dropsâ€¦ and I have a positive ammonia reading that appears to be between 4~8 ppmâ€¦
> 
> I have been doing water changes a couple of times per week during my fishless cycle using Prime to tap water and I am completely convinced that the Prime has had zero effect on my ammonia/nitrite testsâ€¦
> 
> Rhino, you must have done something â€™wrongâ€™â€¦


Here's what I did...

I filled a large cup with tap water and added some prime. I don't know exactly how much I added, but I think it was excess - like .5-1ml of prime. For some reason, I didn't think of just putting in a couple drops and then squirting the rest back into the prime bottle.

My tank water had an ammonia concentration of 2+. I can't discern the colors over 2, so I wanted to make sure my ammonia didn't get too high. I used the 4 API test vials and created a full tank water, 50% tank to 50% tap, 25% tank to 75% tap, and 12.5% tank to 87.5% tap. Also, using my tetra laborette kit, I did a full tank vial and a 1/8 tank vial. Every vial that was diluted reported 0 ammonia. The control vials (tank water only) each reported positive for ammonia.

I then repeated the test using plain tap water without the prime. Every vial reported positive ammonia, and the results were consistent with the level of dilution (2ppm, 1ppm, .5ppm, and .25ppm).

So the best explanation I can come up with for why we experienced different results is that I used a relatively stronger concentration of prime, and had a relatively less concentration of ammonia.



> Rhino,
> 
> You said you tested your water last night w/ strips after the water change w/ Prime and the nitrites were positiveâ€¦ then you tested the nitrites the following day with both strips and drops and nitrites were negativeâ€¦
> 
> If Prime erased your nitrite reading today, why didnâ€™t it yesterday? Is it possible that your tank has â€œfinished cyclingâ€


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Rhinox said:


> :scratches head: But this makes me think that the API test should not get a false negative reading when the ammonia is bound... and I definately saw a false negative on the ammonia test when I know I had ammonia in the water...


I think you already stated your answer to thisâ€¦



Rhinox said:


> So the best explanation I can come up with for why we experienced different results is that I used a relatively stronger concentration of prime, and had a relatively less concentration of ammonia.


Prime converts Ammonia (NH3) to ammonium (NH4+) by adding a hydrogen atom to the Ammoniaâ€¦ Adding excessive amounts of Prime to the tap water meant there were excessive amounts of Hydrogen atoms looking for a homeâ€¦ and they found it in the Ammonia. So instead of making NH4, you likely mad something more like NH75... Which the test may not have recognized as Ammonia nor typical Ammonium.

It is suggested to use 2 drops of Prime per gallonâ€¦ you used enough Prime to dechlor 10 gallons in one cup of waterâ€¦

Iâ€™m looking forward to seeing the results over the next day or two to see if your tank is truly â€˜cycledâ€™.

If it is, it also interests me that the cycle completed the day after the large water change bringing the nitrites back on the chart. Naturally it could be coincidental timing, but one may have also lead to the otherâ€¦ Iâ€™m not making any assumptions here, but it has me curiousâ€¦ Iâ€™ll be toying with that idea in the near futureâ€¦


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

Toby_H said:


> So instead of making NH4, you likely mad something more like NH75... Which the test may not have recognized as Ammonia nor typical Ammonium.


That is a very good and interesting point Toby_H. I would expect the hydrogen to just bind to itself as H2 and off-gas, but its completely possible. I may have to write to Seachem about it.


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## Yajna (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm starting to think it might be much easier to cycle a tank using a simple sodium thiosulfate product that is only going to get rid of chlorine and break the chloramine bond. That way we wouldn't have to worry about the additional "binding"/"reducing" effects of Prime. As nice as those properties are, they don't really seem necessary in a cycling tank without fish and they create a lot of confusion about test readings. I'm still all about using it after the fish go in especially since I have detectable levels of ammonia in my tap water. Just my .02....

And for what it's worth (which may be even less than .02)...
High school chemistry was a _very_ long time ago for me, but I'm not sure that something like NH75 is even possible at a molecular level. Perhaps we have a chemistry major out there somewhere who'd like to chime in...?


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Yajna said:


> but I'm not sure that something like NH75 is even possible at a molecular level. Perhaps we have a chemistry major out there somewhere who'd like to chime in...?


I agree... I should have explained my point more accurately...

Amonium is defined as "NH4+"... meaning 4 or more hydrogen molecules... Since he added approximately 80 times as much Prime as recommended... I'm guessing (also not a Biologist) that this would make the ammonium as hydrogen heavy as it could possibly be... which may alter the way it reacts to the tests...

Fishkeeping isn't brain surgeory, I understand that...

But when we use 80 times the recommended dose of a chemical I think we should expect adverse affects to chemical tests 

Since using Prime as directed does not have any adverse effects on API test kits... I see no reason to discourage people from using Prime while cycling...


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## Yajna (Oct 20, 2009)

I agree with what you are saying.

I use Prime and am happy with my results. But, honestly, it (and the products like it) can cause an awful lot of confusion for an awful lot of people (including myself). No matter how much we don't want it to or know that it shouldn't, that confusion is going to persist until everyone is up to speed on how these type of products work and what their effects are. Judging by the Seachem forum (not to mention this one), I'd guess we are still quite a ways from that happening.

I was more just trying to bring up the old K.I.S.S. principle. Sometimes we don't need "newer", "better", "improved" or "enhanced" when we're trying to do something as supposedly simple as getting some bacteria to grow in our fish tank--something that has been happening way before and will continue to happen long after the current trend in water conditioning science.

Because, as you said and I agree, fishkeeping shouldn't have to feel like brain surgery.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

I'm no chemist, but I know a little bit about chemistry, and I'm pretty sure its only NH3 and NH4+. The extra hydrogen bonds with the lone electron pair of the NH3 molecule.

Hydrogen, though, never just exists by itself though. Pure hydrogen always exists as H2 in nature. The hydrogens that bond with the ammonia will have to have been ripped off another molecule - i.e. whatever the chemical in the prime is that detoxes the ammonia.

The reason ammonium has a positive charge is because hydrogen atoms usually have 1 proton and 1 electron, and they desire to have 2 electrons (since this is the inner most electron shell, they only want 2 and not 8 electrons like in the outer shells of every other atom besides hydrogen (1 proton, 1 electron) and helium (2 protons, 2 electons, and inert because it already has a stable outer shell)). Thats why lone hydrogens will easily form H2. The hydrogen that bonds with ammonia, however, doesn't have its electron. Thats why it can bond to the lone electron pair of the ammonia, forming NH4+ (positive charge because Ammonia is electrically neutral, and the hydrogen atom adds a proton but not an electron - but the hydrogen is happy because it considers the lone pair as the 2 electrons in its outer shell).

The reason for the chemistry lesson is because after 1 hydrogen bonds with ammonia to form ammonium, there are no more bonding sites for any more hydrogen atoms, so you will never get anything more than NH4 without forcing it in a lab.

Furthermore, you'd have to try really hard to get an excess of hydrogen in water. Water is actually more than H20, it also has a balance of hydronium (H30+), and hydroxide (OH-). The balance of H30+ and OH- determines the acidity of the water. A pH of 7 has an equal number of H30+ and OH-. The reason H30+ and OH- even exist is because a molecule of H20, while electrically neutral overall, has extreme positive and negative poles - like the north and south pole of earth. The negative side of H20 molecules will sometimes pull a hydrogen proton off another H20 molecule forming H3O+ and leaving the other water molecule as OH-. Then, every once in a while, the OH- will bump into a H30+ molecule just right and pull the hydrogen proton back. This reaction is occurring continuously and constantly in water everywhere.

When the pH is greater than 7 (basic), there is more OH- in the water than H30+. When acidic, its the other way around. The reason is that H3O+ and OH- are not stable molecules when there is more than just water in the water. Chemicals that tend to make the water basic I believe steal the hydrogen proton off of the H30+ molecule before it can find another OH- to get back to happy H20.

The point being that whatever chemical in the prime that supplies the hydrogen, even after they've bonded with every ammonia molecule to form ammonium, the excess hydrogens are simply going to start bonding with the OH- to form more H2O. Overall, the reaction would seem to make the water more acidic.

On a side note, that is why ammonia forms more ammonium in acidic water, will be half ammonia/half ammonium in neutral water, and will be mostly ammonia the more basic the water gets.

What this means is that if the API test measure both ammonia and ammonium, there must be another explanation for the false negative. I'm guessing that perhaps the chemicals in the prime itself must have reacted with the chemicals in the API test kit. Since there was an excess amount of prime used, whatever prime didn't react with chlorine, ammonia, etc must have been more than happy to react with the chemicals in the test kit. If all the prime would have been used up by the ammonia, chlorine, etc, then there would be no prime left to react with the test kit.

Back to my tank, well its saturday morning, I've added ammonia on thrusday and friday evenings, and this morning the vials report negative for both ammonia and nitrite. Last night, after I added ammonia, I tested for ammonia and got a positive reading, so I know that the ammonia at least is being properly read by the test kit as of last night. I suspect that the nitrite test is working just fine as well. So it does seem like my tank is fully cycled.

Another interesting point is that it seems to take less than 12 hours for the bacteria to turn ammonia into nitrate. I added the ammonia around 8PM last night, and tested this morning at 8AM and got negative for both. Today is fish adding day finally, and I'm confident all is well with my tank.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

It stinks that we don't know exactly how Prime does what Prime does... although I can completely understand why Seachem protects the results of very expensive research and development...

My understanding is simply that Prime is a mixture of unstable chemicals that are trying to give away ions or take in ions to become more stable... which is why they instantly start making chemical reactions in our tanks...

I'm by no means arguing any of the Chemistry you shared with us, and thanks for the explanation... I do still think we can all agree that using many times more Prime than recommended could cause an inaccurate reading even to a test that can read accurately when Prime is used as directed...

That said, going back to Yajna's last post... with that explanation, yes I can also see the benefit of using a dechlorinator that dechlorinates and breaks the chlorine/ammonia bond of chloramines... but does not have all the other "binding agents" that Prime and many similar products have.

I always enjoy these conversations. I try a lot of things to learn more about my hobby. Talking with other's who do the same gives me the benefit of learning from another's perspective / approach...

Thanks guys, and excuse me while I go dig up an old thread on a similar topic to further that conversation


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## Hthundar (Apr 10, 2009)

I did a test

Nitrate levels were about 100ppm
2 different test tubes
API nitrate test kit - liquid
Prime

I added the Prime 1st to each test tube. The 1st tube, 1 drop and the 2nd 3 drops. 
Next I added the water to the fill lines on the tubes.
Added the test solutions per instructions on the API kit.
Waited 1, 3 & 5 min.

Both tubes resulted in the same way

1 minute result - test kit show no nitrate level (all yellow)
3 minute result - same as above
5 minute result - completely clear. no coloring in the test tubes what so ever.

Not sure what to make of this, any thoughts?


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Hthundar said:


> I did a test
> 
> Nitrate levels were about 100ppm
> 2 different test tubes
> ...


hmmm... not too sure... I know with the dropper I use, 1 drop of something is equal to 1/20 of a mL. According to the reccomended usage of prime, 1/20 of a mL should be enough treatment for 190mL of tap water. (5mL per 50 gallons). So the first vial was about 40 times the recommended dosage of prime, and the second vial was about 120 times. So I'm just guessing that the strength of prime used in both vials was enough to effect the tests.


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## crotonfish (Dec 8, 2012)

Well I am having some ammonia issues in a large tank of S American cichlids. I was interested in the accuracy of my API test kit for Nitrate which is reading zero (ammonia 0.5, Nitrite 0) . I am using Prime in that tank. I went to another tank which is well cycled (no Prime) and got about 30ppm Nitrate. I then took some water from that second tank, added Prime. When I retest I get exactly the same result (30 ppm) . So I conclude the API test kit works for nitrate with or without Prime.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Found this one Seachem's website some time ago and thought I would post it here again. I was told by Seachem to wait 24hrs before testing using any regent based test kit after dosing with Prime or Safe.

Q: I am using Prime® to control ammonia but my test kit says it is not doing anything, in fact it looks like it added ammonia! What is going on?

A: A Nessler based kit will not read ammonia properly if you are using Prime®... it will look "off scale", sort of a muddy brown (incidentally a Nessler kit will not work with any other products similar to Prime®). A salicylate based kit can be used, but with caution. Under the conditions of a salicylate kit the ammonia-Prime complex will be broken down eventually giving a false reading of ammonia (same as with other products like Prime®), so the key with a salicylate kit is to take the reading right away. However, the best solution ;-) is to use our MultiTest: Ammonia™ kit... it uses a gas exchange sensor system which is not affected by the presence of Prime® or other similar products. It also has the added advantage that it can detect the more dangerous free ammonia and distinguish it from total ammonia (which is both the free and ionized forms of ammonia (the ionized form is not toxic)).


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