# I'm coming back!



## gillmanjr

Hello everyone. About a year ago I had to sell my cichlids and take everything down due to a big change in my home and the addition of another baby. But now that everything has settled down and I have my office set back up in another room, I am ready to dive back into it. Last night I went out and bought another 75 gallon tank! Its going to take me at least a few weeks to get it setup because this time I'm not using buckets/garbage cans for water changes, which is what I did last time. I'm putting a mixing valve in my house and running a dedicated water line to this tank. I want the maintenance to be as simple as possible.

However, my main reason for the post is to get some stocking suggestions. The last time I had a mixed Mbuna tank with between 16-20 fish. But this time I want to keep the numbers lower and I want to do a species tank. I am strongly considering a Demasoni tank but does anyone else have suggestions for an interesting species? And also what kind of numbers and M to F ratio should I shoot for? I am probably going to buy them sexed this time although I haven't decided firm on that yet.


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## DJRansome

Welcome back!

Low maintenance and demasoni don't go together. Yellow labs or Acei. 3m and the rest females. It's pretty hard to find mbuna from a reputable vendor sold as sexed.

You want 20 Lake Malawi in a 75G to manage aggression even in a single species tank.

How are you going to deal with chlorine?


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## gillmanjr

I'll use a neutralizer for the chlorine, like Seachem Prime probably, I'll just put directly in the tank. Those neutralizers work very rapidly I believe, like basically instantaneously.

Why do you say Demasoni aren't low maintenance, in what regards? If you are talking about aggression I don't mind that. I have enough experience with Mbuna now that I can deal with fish aggression issues. I'll make changes/removals if necessary. When I said low maintenance I meant in terms of water changes and filter cleanings. My last tank setup had an FX6 and separate reactor that I built and I was doing water changes using a 55 gallon Brute garbage can. I'm not going through that hassle again. I actually just figured out that I can connect my Python hose directly to my shower head, which is literally 10 feet away from where the tank is going. Therefore I can drain and refill the tank directly from my shower/tub. Its going to be SO MUCH easier.

If I go the Demasoni route what is your suggestion for M:F ratio and how many fish total? FYI I buy from <vendor name removed> (if you google it you'll find him), he's a very reputable breeder in Florida. I have purchased all of my fish from him in the past and he has been amazing. He has sexed Demasoni for $15 ea (mid sized 2-3").


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## DJRansome

I find removing the rocks frequently to net sick/aggressive/victim fish/manage aggression to be a lot more work than water changes. They are more susceptible to bloat due to aggression than other species. Maybe if you are not saving fry and stock 5 Synodontis multifasciatus for fry patrol and are good at judging what is normal aggression and what is starting to stress them you will find them easy. I would try for 3m:17f.

Note: other mbuna are easier than demasoni. You will note they have level 2 difficulty to keep in the profiles.


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## gillmanjr

OK I think you might have talked me out of them. What about a Saulosi colony? Or Afra Reef? I like barred species if you didn't notice lol.


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## DJRansome

Saulosi would be my pick. Afra (now zebroides) have dull females.

You could try the Metriaclima dolphins. They look like giant demasoni. I hear they are skittish, but in a species tank worth a try if you like blue bars.


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## gillmanjr

So I have the tank all setup now and just received a large live filter sponge from Angel's Plus that I threw in my HOB. I still have a Marineland 360 canister on its way in the mail that is going to be my main filter, but for now I'm running this HOB I got with the tank.

Unfortunately I cannot find any Saulosi's for sale. There are four different breeders that I buy from online and none of them have Saulosi in stock :-? . I've decided to go with another mixed tank similar to the one I had last time, I think I'm going to start with 4 each of Cobalt Blues, Red Zebras, and Yellow Labs. Then at some point I'll add some Afra Jalo Reefs as well.


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## shiftyfox

Tank looks great, love the rocks. 
I think most members would advice on 5 of each fish 1M 4F
Then when you put your forth species in - 20 fish total. 
Red Zebras and Labs could cross breed.


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## DJRansome

I would skip the estherae with the labs (as shifty mentioned) but also with the cobalt blues (really Metriaclima callainos).

I would add rocks, but they ARE pretty.

Keep in mind that Cynotilapia afra Jalo Reef are not Cynotilapia zebroides Jalo Reef.

Could it be that you cannot find Saulosi because you are looking for Pseudotropheus saulosi but they are now called Chindongo saulosi?


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## gillmanjr

DJRansome said:


> I would skip the estherae with the labs (as shifty mentioned) but also with the cobalt blues (really Metriaclima callainos).
> 
> I would add rocks, but they ARE pretty.
> 
> Keep in mind that Cynotilapia afra Jalo Reef are not Cynotilapia zebroides Jalo Reef.
> 
> Could it be that you cannot find Saulosi because you are looking for Pseudotropheus saulosi but they are now called Chindongo saulosi?


You would ADD rock?!? Theres a lot of rock in my tank man, like hundreds of pounds of it. Maybe you can't tell from the picture but it goes basically from front to back and side to side, there are at least 6 separate caves with no line of sight to others. Also, I don't want to add too much more because I am hoping not to have this tank for too long - I'm looking for a 5 foot tank. As you can see in the photo the stand I have it on is actually 60"x18". Its not a common tank size but I have a wanted ad on craigslist for a 120 gallon 5 footer (60x18x24). They pop up once in a while for sale. Once I find one I'll go crazy with it.

Also, I don't keep fry so I'm not concerned about cross breeding.

About the saulosi - I wasn't searching for the name. All the breeders I buy from have a list of all the fish they stock. Only one of them even carries Saulosi normally and they are out of stock at the moment.


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## DJRansome

It's not a cross breeding concern between estherae and cobalts, it is aggression. Same genus, both a solid color in spite of the fact that one is orange and one is blue, they view each other as competitors.

The higher up the tank you can stack rock for mbuna, the better. I usually leave one Python-width between rock and glass all around.


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## gillmanjr

DJRansome said:


> It's not a cross breeding concern between estherae and cobalts, it is aggression. Same genus, both a solid color in spite of the fact that one is orange and one is blue, they view each other as competitors.
> 
> The higher up the tank you can stack rock for mbuna, the better. I usually leave one Python-width between rock and glass all around.


Yea I get it, Mbuna love the rocks, hence their name. But I also like to see my fish occasionally lol. The very first time I setup a Mbuna tank I basically filled the entire tank with rock and I never saw the fish. :lol:


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## shiftyfox

One improvement for very low cost, paint the back of your tank black. 
Will look ten times better when you add fish.


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## gillmanjr

shiftyfox said:


> One improvement for very low cost, paint the back of your tank black.
> Will look ten times better when you add fish.


I did that with my first 75 and was going to do it again but decided not to for the same reason I stated above - I am hoping to replace this ASAP with a 120 gal 5 footer. I will definitely paint that tank.


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## gillmanjr

So originally I put one 50 lb bag of pool filter sand in this tank. Its the first time I've used pool filter sand for one of my tanks and I have to say, I really like it. It looks really nice, its clean, and its cheap. But I had also already ordered 20 lb of argonite for the so-called pH buffering capability (which I'm not entirely convinced of to be honest) and now that I've added it I'm disappointed with the way it looks. I wish I had just kept the pool filter sand. I know one thing for sure, from here on out its pool filter sand only for me, in any and all tanks I have in the future.


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## gillmanjr

I wanted to share something with everyone....I ordered a live sponge from Angel's Plus last week in the hopes of quickening my cycle time. I had read from multiple sources that it usually cuts down the time to about 10 days. I received the sponge in the mail on Friday and put it in my HOB. Well...my tank is already cycled! Less than TWO days. I checked ammonia a couple of hours ago and it was down to about .25 (started at 4) and my nitrates were up to 20+. I can't believe it cycled in less than 2 days. I already ordered 12 fish, they'll be arriving Friday. :thumb:


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## shiftyfox

What readings have you got for Nitrites..?


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## gillmanjr

shiftyfox said:


> What readings have you got for Nitrites..?


I didn't do a test yesterday but I just did one and am at about 0.5 so the tank isn't FULLY cycled yet. But now the tank has processed a total of at least 6 ppm ammonia so that isn't much. My nitrates are over 40 now so I'm doing a partial WC. I imagine by the time my fish arrive on Friday it'll be fully cycled.


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## gillmanjr

Amazingly I just picked up a 5 foot tank. I had a wanted ad on craigslist for one and finally someone about an hour away emailed me, I got it for $120 and its in good shape. I really excited about this, I already tore down the 75 and have the new 120 on the stand, I'm doing the setup today. My canister is still in place and I just have to move the hoses over. I also have to have lids made but thats no biggy, probably have that done today. Now what do you guys suggest for stocking? I've been wanting a 5 footer for a while but I've never really thought about what I would stock it with if I had one. Does a frontosa group become an option for me with this tank? FYI its a 120 gallon 5 footer...60"x18"25"


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## DJRansome

I would go 72" for frontosa.

You could do some fish that mature <= 8 inches.


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## gillmanjr

Are there any larger fish that could be successfully mixed with Mbuna? Honestly I know very little about other species of cichlids (Haps, Peacocks, etc) other than Frontosa.


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## DJRansome

IMO it is not a good idea to mix frontosa and mbuna.

If you got a feisty hap and mixed it with yellow labs it could work. Taiwan Reef (Protomelas) is nice.

You would want the hap to be mature and established and add juvenile yellow labs maybe a year later.


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## gillmanjr

So it sounds like its generally not a good idea to mix anything else with Mbuna?


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## DJRansome

There are exceptions, such as the yellow labs and maybe acei, but in general you are less likely to have problems if you do haps and peacocks together and mbuna together.

The occasional experienced fishkeeper has had success with large, established haps when mbuna are introduced later as juveniles.


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## gillmanjr

Here is the 120 gallon 5 footer all setup. I got some really nice limestone for this one. I'll take a better shot once all the bubbles are off the glass. I actually had to reseal this tank as it was leaking initially - I got it all setup and got it about half full of water and noticed a small leak, so I had to tear it all apart again, set the 75 gal back up, reseal this tank, and then switch back AGAIN. :x










Still have some things on the way in the mail, including a larger heater (500W), a second Marineland C360 canister (I am going to custom pipe both canisters with all black PVC and loc line), and a new (larger) light fixture. I'll take a final shot once everything is complete in a few weeks.

I also already ordered more stock for this tank, this will be the initial stock, let me know what you think:

(4) Yellow Labs 
(4) Red Zebra
(4) Cobalt Blue
(4) Maingano
(4) Afra Reef
(4) Yellow Tail Acei
(1) Albino Socolofi (female)
(1) Bristlenose Pleco

All groups of 4 fish are 1M:3F (at least that's what I ordered, who knows if it will actually turn out that way). That is 26 total fish, do you think thats a good stock for a 120 gal 5 foot? I don't want a massive overstock, I don't like having wall to wall fish. But I could potentially add one more female of each species and I'm also considering more Acei... :-? Are there any other Mbuna that school/swim on top like Acei?


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## DJRansome

The number is a little high overall and too many species IMO. I have never had luck with quads.

For a 72" tank (yours is 60") I like 25 mbuna and 5 species with 1m:4f of each.

Don't save fry. I have never found Acei to school or swim at the top more than any other mbuna, despite claims to the contrary.


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## gillmanjr

DJRansome said:


> The number is a little high overall and too many species IMO. I have never had luck with quads.
> 
> For a 72" tank (yours is 60") I like 25 mbuna and 5 species with 1m:4f of each.
> 
> Don't save fry. I have never found Acei to school or swim at the top more than any other mbuna, despite claims to the contrary.


Thats interesting that you haven't found Acei to swim at the top, I've read that all over the place. I probably wouldn't have even ordered them and may sell them if thats true, unless I really like the way they look. I also didn't order the Pleco yet since I just setup the tank, going to wait a little while until there's some growth in the tank.


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## DJRansome

gillmanjr said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> 
> The number is a little high overall and too many species IMO. I have never had luck with quads.
> 
> For a 72" tank (yours is 60") I like 25 mbuna and 5 species with 1m:4f of each.
> 
> Don't save fry. I have never found Acei to school or swim at the top more than any other mbuna, despite claims to the contrary.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats interesting that you haven't found Acei to swim at the top, I've read that all over the place. I probably wouldn't have even ordered them and may sell them if thats true, unless I really like the way they look. I also didn't order the Pleco yet since I just setup the tank, going to wait a little while until there's some growth in the tank.
Click to expand...

Me too. They are a pretty well behaved fish however. They need the right lighting.


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## gillmanjr

Here are a couple of better shots of the tank. I custom made sliding glass lids based on a youtube video from Steve Poland Aquatics. Brilliant idea for lids, they are actually much better than the hinged lids and were cheaper. I paid a total of 46 dollars including the molding, custom cut 1/8" glass, and the adhesive pull handles. If anyone is interested in these search for "sliding glass aquarium lids" on youtube and you'll find the video I am referring to.


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## gillmanjr

Which stone do you guys prefer? I want to get some opinions on this because now I'm having a hard time deciding what looks better. They are very different looks between the bluestone (photo 1) which is flatter, longer, sharper pieces, and the drainage stone (some sort of granite I believe) in photo 2, which is more just random rounder pieces. They both make good caves but I can't decide between overall looks...


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## Deeda

Stone type is really a personal preference so which do you like better?

I don't care for flat stones so my choice would be the rocks in photo 2 but at least twice as many and stacked taller.


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## fishboy75

I agree, go with what you like. But I like #2 better and yes double the amount of rocks. Tank looks very nice either way.


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## gillmanjr

OK I think I'm going with #2 for now, I went and gathered some more from the spot I get them at, which is on the side of an on ramp to a highway near me, its a huge cliff that is covered in those, its used for drainage. Should have about double the amount now. I'm making some changes to the plumbing on Friday so I'm going to remove the rock and rearrange after.


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## Deeda

Aren't you worried that the rocks may have been contaminated by either pesticides or road runoff contaminants? I don't recommend getting rocks this way for a number of reasons.


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## shiftyfox

It's always a worry that rocks collected outside could be contaminated in some way. 
Most of my rocks were collected from the beach, I put them in the dishwasher with a little white vinegar. 
After soaked in tap water with a splash of prime over night, all good.

I know people mention using bleach to clean them, but not a fan of using that for anything aquarium related. 
Washing and oven baking is another option.


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## DJRansome

Yes roadside rocks are risky for a variety of reasons. Pretty though.


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## gillmanjr

I soak all the rocks in bleach and Simple Green for at least an hour, then I scrub them with a brush, THOROUGHLY rinse them, and then I actually let them soak again in fresh, clean water. I've been doing this with all of the rocks I've collected, no matter where I get them. I've never had a problem. These types of rocks aren't porous, so cleaning them is actually fairly easy. If they were porous I wouldn't use them because then contaminants can actually soak into the rock. Thats when it becomes a problem.


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## gillmanjr

Tank setup is now complete, including custom PVC plumbing, new light, and a bunch more rocks. I tried something a little different with the rock arrangement this time...


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