# Sick fish? Water issues? I'm at a loss.....



## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

I PMd a friend, and he suggested I post the PM here, as you would know more, and 
be able to diagnose problems better than he. So here goes...

I have an issue.... I have been losing fish. The last 3 water changes (Sundays) I have 
had a dead fish. This is in my 90 Gallon tank. AquaTop CF500-UV and FX5.

The first was a small Yellow Lab. BIG chunk missing. Out of its belly. Next one was also 
a Yellow Lab. Same thing. I figured they were picking off the small fish...

This is the next one: Decent sized Demasoni


















The water parameters are good:
Water Temp fluctuates slightly: 79.9 - 82 (81.1 when I tested tonight.)
PH: 7.8 - 7.9
Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 0 (Starting into orange color.... 2PPMish?)










It's weird... None of the fish have appeared unhealthy. No one hiding, or getting beat up. While 
I'm around anyway. None looked discolored at all. But that Demasoni looks like it could have been 
dead for some time. Stinks to high Heaven too.

Feeding them NLS 3mm pellets (2mm for my smaller guys.) Switched from Seachem Prime to Safe 
to treat the water. 50% - 75% water changes every week.

This tank has been established for nearly a year now. With no problems. Last fish added was a BN Pleco, 
which was a little over 2 months ago.

Any thoughts, or suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You should have at least 10ppm of nitrates even after a water change, so that is something to investigate.

The demasoni looks underfed. It is possible that it has been dead too long to tell...but that chunk missing does not seem like a bite or bites.

Can you post pics of the bellies of your other fish?

It's possible you have aggression and he was a victim fish who became skinny before he died. Are all your fish eating every day? Feces are thick and food-colored? Anyone lurking under the surface or behind filter intakes or heaters?


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

Another casualty  A Fuelleborni.... WTF?


























She was tucked away in the right corner, under the CF500 intake. I JUST did a water change!

How do I get the nitrates higher? How do I stop my fish from dying? 

I'm going to feed them and upload the video when I get to work.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

> How do I get the nitrates higher?


I think DJ meant that the fact that your nitrates are reading 0 means there's something wrong with your test kit. In an established tank you'll always have a nitrate reading, (unless it's a planted tank). The fact that you had a dead fish in the tank for a 'long time' and you don't have an ammonia reading also points to the test kits possibly being faulty. They do have a shelf life. 
It's hard to learn much from a picture of a dead fish--especially one that has decomposed, (and they start to decompose super fast).
Of more importance is knowing what symptoms and behaviors your fish showed in the week before they died. 
Where they all eating at every feeding? (eating--not eating and spitting out) The day before you found the fish dead: did they eat?
Where they all swimming around the tank freely or were any of them hanging in the corner, up at the top, sitting on the bottom, etc?
Where any gasping?
Did any have any kind of growths on them before they died?
Do any of them have a concave belly?

For now I would do several partial water changes of 30% using a good quality dechlorinator spaced a few hours apart. Siphon the gravel. Check to make sure the filter media is not clogged up with waste and if it is rinse it out in a bucket of tank water. 
Watch the tank from a vantage point where the fish can't see you so you can observe any aggression. 
Get back with more infor
Robin


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

Got it. After the fish this morning, I took a sample into the LFS, along with the fish in a tupperware. They tested 
the water with API strips. She said that my water was perfect. Said that my kit was probably bad.

As for hiding... As I type this there is a yellow lab in one corner, swimming back and forth emptying mouths full of sand LoL
The FX5 intake and CF500 intake are on opposing sides of the tank. They have both been excavated. The fish this morning
was in one corner, partially under the rock. Right now, there is a yellow lab and demasoni swimming around the heater. 
Everyone moving around, there are a couple chases, but they end without fighting.

I am seeing a couple strings of almost clear poop. Rather stringy. But with these two filters, the tank is cleared up quickly, so I 
can't say how much has really been there.

I sat at the tank, and all of them came to see me. There are no fish with spots, none with concave bellies, and none hiding.

This is the vantage point from where I sit now. Clear view of the tank. I watch them a lot.... I must be missing something.


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

Here is the video of them eating this morning.


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

Ok, so I have been watching for the last hour. TV off, computer away, nothing but fish.

I Have noticed 3 seperate fish scraping along the sand. First one side, then the other... I see 
no white spots, no gasping, not any other strangeness but the scratching.

Another thing I have been watching.... My big male Fuelleborni, and a female, trading places in a hidey hole. 
He protects the area when she's in there. She swims far away, and he ducks in. She comes back, he keeps 
everyone away. This has been going on for 30+ minutes..... Mating?? Sure looks like it. He's all colored up. More 
than I usually see him. If it IS mating time, it makes it even MORE important to figure out the issue in the tank.

LFS suggested I treat with copper. That's ich treatment right? If I See no ich, can there Be ich? Does copper Hurt 
the fish if there isn't a need???


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

No--don't treat the tank with anything. We need to narrow it down a little bit better before trying any treatment.



> The fish this morning
> was in one corner, partially under the rock


Not sure what you meant by this--hiding? Stuck? Excavating?
And the fish hanging by the heater--do they pretty much stay there? That's not normal if they do.

So you have a lot of fish in that tank--nothing wrong with that but it does present a few challenges to keeping things running smoothly. For one thing with so many fish it's hard to document the symptoms leading up to a death. How can you be sure everyone is eating? Can't really. A heavily stocked tank also makes it harder to keep the water quality good. You have to do large weekly partial water changes and then it's really important to be testing--with a good kit--frequently. Your nitrate reading will tell you if you're doing enough water changes. It should never rise above 20ppm--and that would be just before a water change--after a water change it should be around 10ppm. If it doesn't stay within those parameters then you know your water changing schedule/amounts are not cutting it and it may also tell you that you're over-feeding your fish. 
Another challenge with so many fish is that it may not provide enough territory for certain individual fish.

So we still don't have much in the way of symptoms leading up to the deaths but after viewing your video I do have a hunch on what the issue is--aggression. Not because I saw any but because of the stocking of your tank. M. Auratus--I believe I saw at least two. Go to the profiles section of this site and read up on them. 
You want to find a place to watch your fish where they can't see you watching. Watch for a long time. You may see certain fish swimming or hanging close to the top and then when they look as if they might swim away from the surface one of your other fish--perhaps from way over on the other side of tank will turn in their direction and the fish near the surface will stay put. That's a sure sign of ongoing and established aggression. The bad stuff--where fish actually die--usually happens when the lights are off. 
Fish normally have some kind of symptom(s) leading up to death. Anytime you have fish that are swimming and eating normally one day and dead the next the first thing you should consider is aggression.

Robin


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

Sorry,

The dead fish I found in the morning was wedged in the corner, partially under a rock.

The excavating... In the video I posted, the left side as well as the rest of the tank was pretty 
flat after the gravel vac. My yellow lab was moving sand, by mouth, from the back to the front.









Is this the M. Auratus? It's the only one like it in the tank









As for hanging out near the heater or intakes, generally it's my small labs, and not for long. The only 
fish that I have that hides regularly is the BN Pleco. On the glass, behind the FX5 intake. I look for him 
every day.

Water changes (Right around 50%) every Sunday. I'll need to get another test kit Friday, to keep up on the chemistry.

The video I posted... That is typical feeding, Mon, Wed, Fri, and Sat. Those are the days I feed, and that's pretty much 
what it looks like all the time. Most up at the top, eating well. The smaller ones at the rocks, grabbing what passes 
down. I haven't known anyone hiding during feeding time.


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

2 more dead. And it seems that this thread just got dropped. I provided more information, or at least, 
clarification... But get no reply. I apologize if I'm not answering your questions better, but I still have 
fish dying, and don't know why.

The video I posted earlier.... Everyone ate well this morning, just like that video.

Any help is appreciated. I'm removing all the rock now, and I am going to get the gavel vac, and do another 
water change.


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## cichlid-gal (Apr 27, 2012)

Sorry for your fish losses. Pulling all your rock is probably a good thing as there may be a fish missing and dead that you are not seeing which could contribute to improper water conditions. Without the test kit, its impossible to know exactly what your water parameters are (and not impressed that the LFS used test strips).

Just a couple of observations in your feeding video..the 1st being that it seems that a lot of food is being fed as it takes about 2 minutes to complete feeding your fish. I notice one of your big fish, he's on the left under the rocks at about 0:17 a little lab swims near him, does not come out to eat until late and when he does come out it is hard to tell if he actually eats or just swims around looking at the food. Also, at 1:21 in your video you can see the albino (white fish - socolofi? maybe) spit out its food...it is a lot of food. Finally near the end of the video it looks like there is a yellow lab hanging out near the top of the tank (you can see a reflection of one). Possible you could watch those fish or observe those fish a little more closely and see if there are in fact any other behaviors that worry you. As for the feeding time/amount, overfeeding can cause a number of problems in tanks and with fish. Better to underfed a little than to overfeed I think. I don't have a tank full of big fish like this either so maybe that is normal feeding for a group that size.

OK...not much help but just a couple of observations. Hoping things clear up for you and the fishes.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I think the labs position in the tank IS a good indication that you have aggression issues. This can cause stress and susceptibility to illness. It's possible you have an infection like bloat sweeping through your tank.

To diagnose it...you need to spend a lot of time watching the living fish. Does every fish eat every time you feed? If you see one that doesn't...that's the one to watch and that's the one that may infect others in your tank. Keep a special eye on those labs.

You want to observe thick, food-colored feces on all fish (before it drops off the fish...you are not looking at the substrate for this). This takes time since this biological function does not happen 24/7. If you see white or clear thready feces on any individual fish...that's the one to watch. If the not eating and the clear feces are on the same fish you can make a diagnosis.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Any update Sobriety?

Sounds a little like bloat. You mentioned earlier on in this thread that you saw some clear/white feces. Bloat doesn't just wipe out your whole tank at once. It will slowly kill off your fish. It effects a couple/single fish at a time.

And that photo does indeed look like an Auratus. A male making his color transformation. There are plenty of Melanochromis species I am unaware of, or their coloring, so I may be incorrect.


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

Ok guys, sorry for the long delay... EXTREMELY busy and long couple of days. I'm going to try to answer all of your questions/observations...



cichlid-gal said:


> Pulling all your rock is probably a good thing as there may be a fish missing and dead that you are not seeing which could contribute to improper water conditions. Without the test kit, its impossible to know exactly what your water parameters


Pulled the rock, used gravel vac, no more deaths. Parameters look good:











cichlid-gal said:


> Just a couple of observations in your feeding video..the 1st being that it seems that a lot of food is being fed as it takes about 2 minutes to complete feeding your fish. I notice one of your big fish, he's on the left under the rocks at about 0:17 a little lab swims near him, does not come out to eat until late and when he does come out it is hard to tell if he actually eats or just swims around looking at the food.


I fed slow to capture more of the behavior in a video... Normally a lot quicker, and Maybe a Little less food on 
a normal morning.

The smaller labs sometimes will bully their way into the middle of the group, but usually they wait for the stuff that 
passes by... Or they grab up the smaller, 2mm pellets. I feed 3mm and 2mm because some of the fish just have never 
grown any larger than when I got them.



cichlid-gal said:


> Also, at 1:21 in your video you can see the albino (white fish - socolofi? maybe) spit out its food...it is a lot of food.


Red Zebra.... I'll cut down the food a little.



cichlid-gal said:


> Finally near the end of the video it looks like there is a yellow lab hanging out near the top of the tank (you can see a reflection of one). Possible you could watch those fish or observe those fish a little more closely and see if there are in fact any other behaviors that worry you. As for the feeding time/amount, overfeeding can cause a number of problems in tanks and with fish. Better to underfed a little than to overfeed I think. I don't have a tank full of big fish like this either so maybe that is normal feeding for a group that size.


That little lab.... May have been one of the 2 most recent deaths.... But they all have done that from 
time to time. Never for long, and not the same fish....



DJRansome said:


> I think the labs position in the tank IS a good indication that you have aggression issues. This can cause stress and susceptibility to illness. It's possible you have an infection like bloat sweeping through your tank.


Where should the labs position be? I am watching them now, and everyone is in harmony right now.... No one 
is singled out, or hiding. At minimum there are 3 in a group, but the majority are hanging out in the bottom to middle 
of the tank, swimming in the current.



DJRansome said:


> To diagnose it...you need to spend a lot of time watching the living fish. Does every fish eat every time you feed? If you see one that doesn't...that's the one to watch and that's the one that may infect others in your tank. Keep a special eye on those labs.


Everyone is eating... Or trying to. Some of the smaller labs Try with the 3mm pellets, but they will spit it out 
when the smaller pellets are in the water.



DJRansome said:


> You want to observe thick, food-colored feces on all fish (before it drops off the fish...you are not looking at the substrate for this). This takes time since this biological function does not happen 24/7. If you see white or clear thready feces on any individual fish...that's the one to watch. If the not eating and the clear feces are on the same fish you can make a diagnosis.


I rarely get to see them doing their thing. Either it happens when I'm at work, or sleeping. 
With the over filtration, it's difficult to see anything floating. I DID see some very opaque, 
stringy feces. No idea Who it was from.



Iggy Newcastle said:


> Sounds a little like bloat. You mentioned earlier on in this thread that you saw some clear/white feces. Bloat doesn't just wipe out your whole tank at once. It will slowly kill off your fish. It effects a couple/single fish at a time.


Wouldn't bloat Show in the sick fish?

And that photo does indeed look like an Auratus. A male making his color transformation. There are plenty of Melanochromis species I am unaware of, or their coloring, so I may be incorrect.[/quote]
I adopted the Auratus and Red Zebra from a friend. She said both were too much for her "mixed cichlid" tank, and 
were afraid for her fry... I figured that, with the 90g (hers was 40g), and the amount of fish, that they would be fine 
in there.... And I haven't seen anything from them. In fact, the only chasing I see is Demasoni to Demasoni, or Lab to Lab, 
Fuelleborni to Fuelleborni, etc....


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Fish sick with bloat often are not bloated...no.


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

Well, this sucks.

I'll continue watching them...

Thank you


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Some things to read over, if you have not already...

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/malawi_bloat2_pt1.php
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=24132


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

Thank you Iggy. Reading now...

"An improper diet can also lead to bloat. Many cichlids - particularly herbivorous ones - have long intestinal tracts, requiring a relatively longer period of time to digest their food. Consequently, it is quite common for these cichlids to develop intestinal problems. The decomposition of improperly digested, or improperly excreted foods can irritate the intestinal wall, and stress the fish, giving the invasive parasite a foothold. This can often come about when a primarily herbivorous, algae-scraping cichlid (like Tropheus or Pseudotropheus spp.) is fed high protein foods such as bloodworms, or pellet and flake foods containing large quantities of fish meal. Slimy or soft foods, such as brine shrimp, should be avoided and replaced with crunchier foods such as mysis. In light of this information, and experience, it is important to avoid certain foods, and to go light on others."

This caught my eye right off the bat.... When I started with a 20g, 3 Labs, and 2 Demasoni, I was giving them a Lot 
of Bloodworms. I found this forum, and one of the members told me to stop. Feed them Flakes or Pellets. So I stopped 
right away. Not even for a treat. But in that paragraph, it says that Pseudotrophius shouldn't have Pellets and Flakes due 
to high protien and fish meal content..... OVER Feeding anyway. Here is my dilemma. If I feed the way I have been, it sounds 
like I am helping my problem. If I cut back on the amount of food, I'm worried that not all the fish will get to eat....

1) How do I fix the amount problem
2) What would be better than NLS 2 and 3mm pellets to feed my Pseudotropheus demasoni, and Pseudotropheus socolofi

Still reading the articles....


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

NLS is fine for those fish, it isn't overly high in protein, nor does it contain difficult to digest proteins.


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

I have a problem right now...

One of by big Labs was on his side, bottom of the tank, and gasping.

In the time that it took to grab a 10g, fill it, vacuum the gravel, and turn on the light for video, the fish is swimming 
with the others, and I can't tell which it was...

1) What makes a good hospital tank? Tank, Water, Air, Heater, Filter?
2) Should I watch the big Labs, or remove them ALL to the hospital tank?


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

Sometimes I wonder how I made it this far in life :-?

I have a 20g Totally Established tank with a couple Tiger Barbs to keep the tank going. Will that work 
for the hospital tank?


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

GTZ said:


> NLS is fine for those fish, it isn't overly high in protein, nor does it contain difficult to digest proteins.


Perfect. Thank you. Is there anything else I can do for them? I read that some put veggies in there.... Cucumber, Zuccini...


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

Found the Lab. Been up there for a solid 20 minutes now....

Just came down to the sand and shook his face in the sand... Then got chased back up there by other labs.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

That's certainly an aggression issue. Sure you read it in the article that stress is a huge factor.


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

Yes... But how do I clear that up? Of all the 
deaths, the Labs and Fuelleborni surprises 
me the most. The only time I have observed 
the chasing is species to species... These 2 
are so docile...


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I'm certainly no expert, and don't want to give you advice that may not help. You could try removing the aggressive lab. I would personally remove the auratus just to be sure he is not raising ****. You could try a course of meds, following the malawi bloat article.

You may have noticed, reading thru old posts in this illness section, that there never seems to be an end to the post. The OP never follows up, or it's never really answered.

The fact that you've seen any of the clear/white feces is cause for alarm. I wish I could help you further. Sorry.


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

Well, then my Other issue is... I have a 30g brackish tank for my puffers, and a 40g tank, with mixed cichlids.... Both perfectly healthy tanks. He would go into the 40, because of the salt in the puffers.... But do I remove a fish from a tank with so much death, and put it in a tank with healthy fish?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I wouldn't put any removed fish in the 40. Sure you could get a 10 gallon for dirt cheap.


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> I wouldn't put any removed fish in the 40. Sure you could get a 10 gallon for dirt cheap.


Yeah.... So I have a 10 that is empty, and an established 20 with 3 Tiger Barbs... What if I put it in the 20, and dose both 
tanks.....


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

I am nearing the end of my rope 

Last night, I started treatment for bloat. I watched the tank for hours. Everyone swimming, 
the big Lab included. My Auratas' color wasn't as vibrant. I went ahead and started dosing 
my tank. 250MG Metronidazole per 10g of water. I also dissolved 2 Tbsp of Epsom salt per 
10g of water, and introduced that over a 4 hour period. Turned off the light and watched for 
a little while, then went to sleep.

This morning, everyone was swimming, and waiting for food. Everyone ate well. I went to 
work, and about 3 hours later I came home for lunch and saw my Auratas nose down on top 
of the rock. I grabbed him and put him in the 20g and moved him through the water, opened 
his mouth some just in case. After 20 minutes I gave up.


















I'm sad, and I'm sick that I'm losing fish.

The Auratas was supposed to be the bada$$ of the tank... The supposed aggressor. Yet he died. If 
I can't get a handle on this, I may just end up taking them to the LFS, sell the tanks, and take up 
knitting


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Well I would continue your treatment for now but dissolve the metro in a tbsp of water, add food to the mix and allow it to soak up the metro for 5 minutes. Add the whole lot to the tank. You dose the tank, and the food at the same time. Be sure to follow the instructions on water changes as well, adding epsom salt when refilling.

Maybe a moderator or someone will jump in with a better idea? I don't know man. I know how you feel. My former bada$$ was a Williamsi north, and he was not immune to disease...


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

"Metronidazole dosed in the water: Perform a 30-40% water change, vacuum, remove any chemical filtration and add 2 tablespoons of Epsom salt for every ten gallons of water, pre-mixed and added gradually over a period of 5-6 hours. *Add 250mg metronidazole for every 10 gallons daily for 5-10 days with each dosage preceded by a 30-40% water change.* If after 5 treatments you've noticed an improvement as well as a bowel movement, attempt feeding metro treated food, otherwise, wait 24 hours and begin treatment again, starting with a 30% water change. Remove any uneaten food after 5-10 minutes. If eating and bowel movements return to normal, continue the metro treated food for a further 3 days with water changes before each feeding. "

So, in bold.... I should do a smaller water change tonight, add the 6 - 8 Tbsp salt, re-dose and watch. 5 - 10 nights.... They don't normally eat tomorrow... 
Should I feed them with the Metro soaked food tomorrow anyway?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would feed daily...the idea is to get the meds into them.


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

DJRansome said:


> I would feed daily...the idea is to get the meds into them.


Ok

Thank you


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> You may have noticed, reading thru old posts in this illness section, that there never seems to be an end to the post. The OP never follows up, or it's never really answered.


Well, Iggy Newcastle, here is an update 

It seems that I have finally gotten ahead of the issue in my tank. I lost a few more fish getting 
there, but no deaths in 5 days.

I started treating with API General Cure (250mg Metronidazole) and 2 Tbsp Epsom Salt per 10g water.

After 2 days, and 2 deaths, I switched to Tetra Parasite Guard (price was a consideration.) 
I dosed for 80 gallons (one box a day). 30% Water Change, added salt back into tank over a few 
hours, and added meds (dissolved in a gallon water jug) during refill. I also started dissolving a 
tablet in a small amount of tank water, and soaking pellets in it, to feed every morning.

I think I will discontinue treating the water, and return the tank back to normal with a few small water 
changes, but soak the pellets in meds for a few more days. May not be needed at this point, but I'd rather 
be safe.

Thank you for all your help :dancing:


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

That's awesome man!

I think you should continue the meds in the food for a few more days. It can only help.

Looking back through post, I noticed the picture of your aurartas had the swollen anus/vent area. That would be a sign of bloat, according to the forum articles. Hopefully you got it taken care of.


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

Yeah, my Auratus died 2ND to last I believe. Sucks 
losing so many. But none in 5 says, so I'm crossing 
my fingers.

Yeah, medicated food for a week I think. Couple water changes tonight.

Thanks again Iggy. You were a constant poster in 
this thread. I appreciate that


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## skins4431 (Jul 20, 2011)

any updates? this is almost exactly what happening to me right now.


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Some things to read over, if you have not already...
> 
> http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/malawi_bloat2_pt1.php
> http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=24132


I haven't lost a fish since my last post. Finally. It got to where I didn't want to look into 
the tank any more. Almost daily death 

Anyway, Iggy posted these links for me to read. Follow the directions and I hope for the 
results I got. :dancing: opcorn:


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## skins4431 (Jul 20, 2011)

ok thanks for the update


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

Good luck


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