# Green Terror, Salvini, and Firemouth in high ph?



## cjam93 (Sep 18, 2015)

Hey guys so my tap water is very high in ph. I am not sure exactly how high, because it goes off the test kit that I have for it. It is dark blue when I test it. Im guessing 8-8.5. So I had a friend tell me to use neutral regulator once a week with my water changes to bring the ph down to 7.0. However I am being told now that I should not do that because the TDS would be more harmful to the cichlids than the high ph would be. I just need some more opinions on what the correct thing to do would be? I unfortunately do not have access to RO/DI water.


----------



## somebody (May 13, 2014)

If the fish are use to it I'm sure they will be fine but if you are looking to make perfect parameters then the best option, I believe, mould be a 50/50 mix rodi and tap. Rodi removes all tds and brings down the ph to base (7.0) gh and kh would also be brought down to 0 being how it removes everything. You should have access to distilled water through your local grocery, try that, same as rodi as long as it's true distilled and not filtered tap from supplier.

I would suggest though not messing with it because if the fish are accustomed to high ph water then you mess with it that will stress them. Then you will be stressed for trying to maintain perfect params and constantly fighting for perfect conditions.


----------



## cjam93 (Sep 18, 2015)

So I have been using neautral regulator on the tank so they are used to 7.0 ph. However I am wondering if I should stop and let them start getting use to a higher ph to avoid tds. Also like in my first post I don't have access to RO/DI


----------



## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

cjam93 said:


> So I have been using neautral regulator on the tank so they are used to 7.0 ph. However I am wondering if I should stop and let them start getting use to a higher ph


Yes, you should stop trying to mess with the pH. Your doing your fish no good. For one thing, both salvini and FM come from high pH and very hard water ......so it makes no sense what so ever, trying to lower the pH for these fish. All of these fish are hardy aquarium strains that do well in captivity under a very wide range of water parameters. You want to keep things stable, and generally it is easier to maintain stable water chemistry in hard and alkaline water (assuming your KH is high enough).


somebody said:


> If the fish are use to it I'm sure they will be fine but if you are looking to make perfect parameters then the best option, I believe, mould be a 50/50 mix rodi and tap. Rodi removes all tds and brings down the ph to base (7.0) gh and kh would also be brought down to 0 being how it removes everything. You should have access to distilled water through your local grocery, try that, same as rodi as long as it's true distilled and not filtered tap from supplier.


From my perspective, doesn't make any sense using RO/DI for hardy aquarium strains, and even less sense for CA cichlids like salvini and FM, both of which come from very hard water and high pH. If you were really into trying to replicate the natural water conditions that these fish come from, you would not be able to keep Green Terror (_Andinoacara rivulatus_) with most CA cichlids. Of course these fish are hardy and do well under a variety of water conditions in captivity. I don't know what "perfect" water parameters is going to mean when fish that are found thousands of miles away from each other are kept in the same tank.....but the reality is the majority of tanks are a mix of fish from different bodies of water (eg. BN pleco in a mbuna tank).


----------



## somebody (May 13, 2014)

cjam93 said:


> So I have been using neautral regulator on the tank so they are used to 7.0 ph. However I am wondering if I should stop and let them start getting use to a higher ph to avoid tds. Also like in my first post I don't have access to RO/DI


Understood that's why I suggested distilled same thing just different  I understand distilled may be a PIA to lug around jugs but it is a method that could help. Again I wouldn't mess with it use up your neutral regulator by bring their new normal to your high tap ph and quit.



> From my perspective, doesn't make any sense using RO/DI for hardy aquariumstrains, and even less sense for CA cichlids like salvini and FM, both of which come from very hard water and high pH. If you were really into trying to replicate the natural water conditions that these fish come from, you would not be able to keep Green Terror (Andinoacara rivulatus) with most CA cichlids. Of course these fish are hardy and do well under a variety of water conditions in captivity. I don't know what "perfect" water parameters is going to mean when fish that are found thousands of miles away from each other are kept in the same tank.....but the reality is the majority of tanks are a mix of fish from different bodies of water (eg. BN pleco in a mbuna tank).


 agreed, rodi isn't good for hard water cichlids meaning what it brings the ph balance to but,maybe I read wrong or its just how I took it,he was complaining of high ph and I merely suggested 50/50 rodi/tap to help bring down the ph. rodi water won't hurt any fish especially if it's accustomed to the neutral ph balance. Like you said and I agree, those fish are hardy and thrive in any environment no reason they can get accustomed to the "new" type of water.


----------



## THQ2 (Nov 4, 2015)

My recommendations:
1. Buy an API master test kit, or at least an API high range pH kit (goes up to 8.8) and a KH/GH test kit. These are the liquid ones.
Now you can know for certain your exact pH and hardness as it comes out of the tap. At the same time ensure there is no low level of ammonia/nitrates in the tap.

2. Making water softer and acidic is a PITA without access to RO water. Just playing devil's advocate here... are you sure you're not interested in setting up an African cichlid tank instead? Would be so much easier. Most likely you could just use water straight from the tap after conditioning.


----------



## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

THQ2 said:


> ... are you sure you're not interested in setting up an African cichlid tank instead? Would be so much easier. Most likely you could just use water straight from the tap after conditioning.


What's the difference with the fish the OP already has???? How would it be easier with Africans since there is NO reason what so ever, that the OP should even be considering attempting to lower the pH in his tank. :x 
Any particular reason one should not use tap water with salvini, FM and green terror?


----------



## somebody (May 13, 2014)

THQ2 said:


> What's the difference with the fish the OP already has???? How would it be easier with Africans since there is NO reason what so ever, that the OP should even be considering attempting to lower the pH in his tank. :x
> Any particular reason one should not use tap water with salvini, FM and green terror?


I don't think there's a need to be yellin bro, take a chillaxitive


----------



## illy-d (Nov 6, 2005)

Only the GT would possibly come from softer and/ or more acidic water in the wild. And since it's probably not a wild caught fish, I don't think it will require or even prefer "wild like" conditions.

As it's been mentioned, the Sal & FM are typically found in harder, more alkaline water anyhow - so even if they were wild caught specimens (again, not probable) it doesn't make sense to monkey with the water.

Any aquarium bred fish will most likely do best in consistent water parameters.

Keep it simple.


----------



## THQ2 (Nov 4, 2015)

I misread the OP's post. I thought he was setting up a tank with those CA cichlids. But on a second read it sounds like he already has those cichlids and needs advice on what to do with the water. I still believe he should get the API test kit to know exactly the level of pH he is dealing with. But I think the fish should be fine as you say as long as the pH is not too far above 8.

I thought he was still in the planning stage of the tank, which is why I threw African cichlids out there as a devil's advocate. In that situation, I would say CA cichlids are fine with SLIGHTLY alkaline and hard water. Most of the info on salvinis and firemouths give 8.0 as the UPPER MAXIMUM recommended limit of pH (6.5-8.0). From first principles you would think keeping a fish in the middle of the recommended range is the most optimal (eg., 7.5, and this is what is recommended from the info I have read on them), as there is margin for error either way. The OP's pH is "off the scale" and he's guessing 8-8.5, but we don't know for sure until he actually tests it with high range pH. Africans esp Lake Malawi cichlids prefer higher pH (7.5-9.0), which would match his tap water better if it was 8.5.

I appreciate both sides of the argument, but IMHO you can't ignore millions of years of evolution. The fact that some fish are born and bred for the last couple generations in a fish shop with different water parameters to what they have evolved to in nature doesn't mean they are optimal water conditions. Generations of people in countries like China are born and bred with bad pollution. Doesn't mean that's what's optimal for them. A lot of chain pet stores keep all their fish eg., everything from Africans to neon tetras in bare tanks in exactly the same water sharuing a huge sump system as they don't have the time/inclination to get the parameters right for every different biotope. Doesn't mean it's optimal. I agree that pH consistency is the most important factor, but you can provide consistently optimal water parameters. Surely most fishkeepers would try to mirror the natural biotope of the fish they keep as closely as possible. This is all my own opinion and of course I understand you don't agree with me and respect your opinion, but as this is a forum I wanted to explain my point of view.


----------



## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

THQ2 said:


> I thought he was still in the planning stage of the tank, which is why I threw African cichlids out there as a devil's advocate. In that situation, I would say CA cichlids are fine with SLIGHTLY alkaline and hard water. Most of the info on salvinis and firemouths give 8.0 as the UPPER MAXIMUM recommended limit of pH (6.5-8.0). From first principles you would think keeping a fish in the middle of the recommended range is the most optimal (eg., 7.5, and this is what is recommended from the info I have read on them), as there is margin for error either way. The OP's pH is "off the scale" and he's guessing 8-8.5, but we don't know for sure until he actually tests it with high range pH. Africans esp Lake Malawi cichlids prefer higher pH (7.5-9.0), which would match his tap water better if it was 8.5.


There is a distinction between somebody's recommendation and an actual measurement taken from the waters the fish come from! Anybody can make up a fish profile on the internet; it's just what one particular aquarist has had success with and recommends but most often has very little to do with what water the fish originates from. The info is out there if you want to look for it. Water has been measured from where these fish come from; a lot of the info is even measurements taken for the purpose of science. It's really not even very disputable. Here is just 2 for salvini and FM that I am going to link to and quote where actual measurtmemts were taken from the waters they come from . Salvini is sympatric to all Thorichtyhys species and pretty much mirrors the range of FM, though I believe it has a somewhat larger range.http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa480/bercom/042_zpsbjeb7ggc.jpg "Water measurements in the Thorichthys meeki habitat can be expected to show alkaline readings in many cases over pH 8.0 and hardness levels from hard to very hard" http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa480/bercom/042_zpsbjeb7ggc.jpg"Water chemistry is always on the alkaline side with pH measurements over 7.5 and values up to 8.0 or more not being unusual. Hardness shows the widest variation from relatively soft water (dH 8 ) to very hard waters (>50dH)."
In the past I did a lot of research using academic papers on water quality in Central America, spending hours reading through info that did not interest me just to find measurements of pH and hardness. Not hard at all to find pH values in the high 8's or even higher; it's actually quite common through many parts of Central America. When you consider that limestone is a prevailing rock type through much of FM and Salvini's range.....not suprising the water can be very hard and on the alkaline side.
Lake Malawi is no mystery as to what the water chemistry is: http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa480/bercom/042_zpsbjeb7ggc.jpg That hardness equates to less then 4 dH (this site has the range listed as dH 4-6 for lake Malawi). As you can see that is considerably softer then the very low range for salvivni (relatively soft dH8). For what ever reasons, the common recommendation is to keep Malawi cichlids in much harder water in captivity, then lake Malawi. TDS values of 200-240 uS also reflect the fact that lake Malawi really is not very hard water at all. This link here shows the pH measured at some very popular collection points:http://www.mchportal.com/aquatic-li...ology-biotopes-mainmenu-151/45.html?task=view Lake Malawi has a pH range of 7.2-8.6, but from where a lot of cichlids are collected from values of 7.7-8.1 are very common. Very similar pH to many bodies of water in Central America.


----------



## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

oops! Something went real funny with 3 of my links :lol: . Linked to the last fish I posted on another thread.
Here's the correct links:
1st one:http://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=7
2nd one:http://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=109
3rd one:http://malawicichlids.com/mw01011.htm


----------



## THQ2 (Nov 4, 2015)

BC in SK said:


> oops! Something went real funny with 3 of my links :lol: . Linked to the last fish I posted on another thread.
> Here's the correct links:
> 1st one:http://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=7
> 2nd one:http://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=109
> 3rd one:http://malawicichlids.com/mw01011.htm


Those are good reads. I take your point and retract mine, as it was based on inaccurate information.

It's frustrating the amount of misinformation or just plain opinion online in that case. I would have thought so many websites that proclaim their authority on the subject of optimum water parameters for a specific species would research the water parameters of the actual biotope it comes from. My mistake was giving them the benefit of the doubt and not doing my own research like you have.

I maintain my philosophy of trying to match the water parameters to the biotope. So I wonder in that case how many other fishkeepers in the hobby have been misled into striving for water conditions for their fish that are actually different to what the fish has evolved for in nature, and thus they should be aiming for.


----------

