# Compatible fish?



## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

Ok I am so excited just set up my tank and letting it cycle... It's a 5x2x2.5 high and I was wanting to make sure all the fish I plan are compatible?

Melanochromis maingano
pseudotropheus estherae 
electric yellow
pseudotropheus saulosi
cyntilapia pulpican
cynotilapia afra cobue
pseudotropheus acei - yellow tail
metriaclima greshakei 
labidochromis sp. Hongi
electric blue
labeotropheus trewavasae -red top
pseudotropheus demasoni
metriaclima estherae -red
blue cobalt zebra
melanochromis johanni
melanochromis cyanerohabdos

any help would be great! Also does it matter how many I add of each species? Is it better to add an even number of each kind? And does it matter if they are male or female?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

In a five foot tank I would not exceed five species. Think in terms of 1m:4f of each but depending on the 5 species you choose that might change. Avoid two species from the same genus.

From your list Pseudotropheus estherae is not a valid name...at the bottom you see Metriclima estherae...same fish and that IS the valid name.

Blue cobalt zebra is Metriaclima callainos. Electric yellow is Labidochromis caeruleus and Electric blue is who knows what? A common name applied to many fish. The scientific names help you avoid combining two species from the same genus.

Also choose fish that look as different as possible. So only one fish with blue bars in a tank for example.


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

It's hard getting all the information of the net when your not too sure of the species... The electric blue I believe is sc fryeri? I will narrow my list down but I wanted to know if all the fish I listed are compatible for a start? And do I need to put in an even number or a certain amount in off each specie? And do I need to have a certain amount of males to females?


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Sci Fry (Electric Blue) can get along - I have 1 in my 125g mbuna tank - but I also realize it may not last.

1M:4F typically.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Ames said:


> The electric blue I believe is sc fryeri?


This is a hap, may not be a good mix with mbuna.



Ames said:


> I will narrow my list down but I wanted to know if all the fish I listed are compatible for a start?


No they are not all compatible.


DJ said:


> Avoid two species from the same genus. Also choose fish that look as different as possible. So only one fish with blue bars in a tank for example.





Ames said:


> And do I need to put in an even number or a certain amount in off each specie? And do I need to have a certain amount of males to females?





DJ said:


> Think in terms of 1m:4f of each but depending on the 5 species you choose that might change.


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## toume (Oct 7, 2010)

If you want more species, you could do all-male, but that's only if you're up for the challenge.

You're not going to be able to just put them in and have them work.
But it's an option.


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

It all depends on what you want. Really, if you just want a mix of different Mbuna and you don't care or save any fry which are born in the tank, many or most will be hybrids... it's okay to have fun. Just realize that only so many males will thrive and show good color, it's just how a community works. Really have too many species... Avoid having multiple species in which they look the same, such as Demasoni/ Saulosi, or Pulpican/Cobue, or Johanni/cyanerohabdos (maingano is the same fish). Only one male of each may color up anyway. Have either no females or at least half so they don't get harassed.

It all depends on what you want. Such a tank is not for breeding. Some males will color up, some only halfway. Keep the tank rather crowded with weekly water changes.

The Electric Blue Fryeri (Ahli) may be okay, but I've seen them suffer when kept with all Mbuna. Lose color and get stressed and skinny.


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

So if I need to put 1 male to 4 female it's going to be a pretty dull looking tank! In most species the male is the best coloration? I have narrowed my list down to these?

Pseudotropheus demasoni
metriaclima estherae -red
melanochromis maingano
labeotropheus trewavasae
metriaclima callainos
labidochromis caeruleus
cynotilapia afra cobue
cynotilapia puplican

I do realize that there are the 2 metriaclima species...And 2 cynotilapia... Is this really a no no or can I get away with it? And does it have to be 1 male to 4 female? I have seen tanks full of males? Or could I just lesson the ratio to 2 females to 4 males?


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## dielikemoviestars (Oct 23, 2007)

Ames said:


> So if I need to put 1 male to 4 female it's going to be a pretty dull looking tank! In most species the male is the best coloration? I have narrowed my list down to these?
> 
> Pseudotropheus demasoni
> metriaclima estherae -red
> ...


Well, demasoni, estherae, callainos, and the labs are all monomorphic - the males and females have the same coloration... Well, estherae males become pinker as they mature, but it's still pretty close.

You'll want more than 1m:4f with the demasoni - the magic number seems to be at least 12 total, and you want as many females as possible. 
I'd cut the mainganos, since demasoni are already dark blue/black, so that color group is covered. I'd also drop the second Cynos (can't find any info on them anyway), and maybe just stick to a single male of the afra, since the females are drab anyway.

Keep in mind, the estherae and labs WILL cross-breed, and I'd imagine the callainos might cross with the estherae, too... 
But if you're looking for color, this set up will give you: dark blue+black, sky blue, orange/peach, yellow+black, yellow+purple+black, and whatever type trew's you get...


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Shame it's not 6x2x2, floor space is key for mbuna.
Possibles...12-15 Demasoni, mostly females if u can, 4-5 Lab Caeruleus (1m-4or5f), how about albino socolofi (1m-4,5f), Saulosi? I've read accounts of others with Demasoni where they ignore the Saulosi males. Anyone with experience jump in. You can replace the labs with Metriaclima estherae (Red Zebra) if you prefer orange over yellow.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Ames said:


> I do realize that there are the 2 metriaclima species...And 2 cynotilapia... Is this really a no no or can I get away with it?


You never know what you can get away with until you try. I would not save fry from a tank like this. The fish from the same genus may fight because they view each other as competitors. Have spare tanks to separate aggressors and victims if it becomes necessary.



Ames said:


> And does it have to be 1 male to 4 female? I have seen tanks full of males? Or could I just lesson the ratio to 2 females to 4 males?


One male of each is fine...that would be an all-male tank without any females at all to create aggression. If you want any females at all, better to have four or more for the one male. Males chase and nip females relentlessly. If there is just one or two this can kill her or make her sick which may infect your tank. When you have four or more females it spreads the male aggression allowing all the fish a better chance to remain healthy.


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## toume (Oct 7, 2010)

If you're up for the challenge, go all-male, but I'd do it with haps/peacocks over Mbuna. 
You'll need extra tanks though. And often you have to remove/replace fish a lot (injury, time outs for aggression, or to remove a fish that simply isn't fitting in--usually the prettiest/best looking fish of all).

Though I can't imagine any Malawi tank being dull...all-male is definitely "lively." :lol:


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

People tend to make it sound like Malawi cichlids are near impossible, you need a perfect formula. Nothing is ever perfect, or at least not forever.

Hobbyists have been doing colorful Mbuna "fish soup" tanks for years, if that is what you want. You just want to avoid the worse situations. No matter what, you can have males causing problems in any tank. You can throw a bunch of different males and females together, without worring about "perfect" sex ratios. Of course, this tank is not for breeding efforts. You don't want too few females because they can get too stressed out. Colorful females include Red Zebra, Cobalt Zebra, OB Zebra, OB Labeotropheus, Yellow Lab, Maingano, Johanni, Msobo, Salousi, Socolofi. Demasoni and Auratus tend to have lots of trouble unless in large groups.


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

just one quick question while i redo my list... does anyone know the name of the african cichlid which is light blue in colour with a dark blue/black head? they are apparently really really aggressive?


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

the fish I was thinking of was pseudotropheus polit! anyway ... I have revised my list... all the talk of an all male tank is not really what I want to do, I would like to have some breeding going on and I dont think I want the challenge of an all male tank.. instead I have found species that are both colourful..

Melanochromis Maingano
Labidochromis Caeruleus 
Pseudotropheus Demasoni 
Metriaclima Estherae (red)
metriaclima sp. "membe deep"
cynotilapia afra cobue 
labeotropheus trewavasae 
pseudotropheus Socolofi (albino)
Cynotilapia Sp. "Hara"

I realize that I have a few reccuring genus... is this such a big problem? can I get away with it..? I have not yet figiured out how many of each I should have.. I know the demasoni i need at least 12 and mostly females, i guess the rest are just 1 male to 4 females??


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Still too many species for a five foot tank IMO. Will you want to save any fry? If you let the mom's spit in the tank the other adults will eat most/all of the babies.


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

are all of those species compatible though? as far as breeding I am yet to research about it... will i need to put the female in a diff tank?


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

[b:u5qu0jhy said:


> Ames[/b]":u5qu0jhy]will i need to put the female in a diff tank?


It'll be too late. The females tend to need to be comfortable with their environment and moving them before holding delays it.

Moving them afterwards it's required until just around birth time to give them time to eat/recup before possibly holding again.

You will have cross breeding with red zebras & yellow labs (even if you have 1:4 of each species. Yellow labs will cross breed with almost anything!


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

So with the species that I have selected I can't breed? Are u saying I have to many different species?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

noki said:


> It all depends on what you want. Really, if you just want a mix of different Mbuna and you don't care or save any fry which are born in the tank, many or most will be hybrids... it's okay to have fun.....Such a tank is not for breeding...Of course, this tank is not for breeding efforts.


:thumb:

If you want to breed and save fry and sell or give away the babies, you want to avoid hybrids. So five species, one male and four females of each. Avoid two of one genus. Avoid two blue barred fish. Avoid the labidochromis caeruleus and metriaclima estherae combination.

Which one is your favorite? We can suggest the other four species.

Note to raise fry you will need tanks for them as the adults will eat them in the main tank.


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

How big does the tank need to be for the babies? and so having 2 species from the same genus will make them hybrids?


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

This is a link to what I was wanting to achieve...

http://www.ratemyfishtank.com/photo-main.php/14844

these look like mostly males? and there are different genus thrown together?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would definitely not buy baby fish from that tank.  Maybe he is not saving fry.

I'd be curious to find out if the tank has been successful with that combination of fish for two years or more. There could be a sufficient number of females since a lot of his choices have attractive females. If I had a bunch of other tanks to separate troublemakers and I really wanted it, I'd try it. I would not save fry though. You could always ask the tank owner for advice, maybe he has a magic formula? 

What you are trying to avoid is any two species producing fry together (hybrid). All you can do is reduce the odds. Keeping fish from separate genus helps. Keeping fish that don't look alike helps. Keeping plenty of females for the male (or all male) helps.

There is no size tank for mbuna that will allow 100% of the babies to grow up in the tank. The adults will hunt them down and eat them, almost instantly. You are likely to have the occasional survivor baby who finds a crack in the rocks and remains lucky when darting out for food until he grows to 1/2", but maybe out of 100s of fry spit in your tank annually, you might get 6-12 survivor fry annually.

If you want to save fry, you catch the holding mom and have her release the babies into a fry tank. Different sized fry will kill each other as well, so if you save multiple batches of fry that are different sizes you may need three tanks.

To save fry you have to catch the mom and that often means removing all the rocks. Even if you are satisfied with survivor fry, to get a specific fish out of the tank you are likely to have to remove major rockwork. That's why many fishkeepers keep separate breeding tanks for easier access to the fish.


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## jackh (Dec 6, 2010)

im thinking of setting up a tank too. some people on here told me i could go with all males and no females. i guess then you could have 3 or 4 males of each species you chose. then you have all pretty fish, instead of a few pretty fish and a bunch of rather bland fish.

someone correct me if that is not the proper way to stock with only males.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Usually with all males you have one of each species. Read the all-male article in the Library to get more details.

I have seen a fishkeeper here or there recommending 3 males of each but the vast majority of all-male tank keepers I have seen posting on CF do the 1 male of each plan.


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

Ok I think I am getting closer... how does this look.. havnt worked out the numbers yet.

melanochromis maingano 
metriaclima estherae (red zebra)
pseudotropheus demasoni 
cynotilapia sp. hara galireya reef
metriaclima sp. membe deep
cynotilapia afra cobue

I know you guys only said 5! but i just cant drop one of these! I already ditched the labidochromis caeruleus because of the "membe deep" female is also yellow... so I have that colour covered... what do you guys think? this is so hard to drop fish!!


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

I'd drop the afra cobue. They are easily intimidated by more boisterous fish like Demasoni and will not show great colors if intimidated.


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

cant drop the afra.. I will give them a go to see how they are.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

It could work out - that's the beauty of it.

Just be ready to adjust if it doesn't. Preparing yourself mentally is the best thing.

(I am ready to pull my 1:5 Kenyi if they get too aggressive)


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## 702Cichlid (Feb 28, 2010)

First of all for I had a hard time understanding why people recommended so few species as well, especially when everything else I read says to overstock out the yin yang. Someone put it to me like this: each male is going to want to establish a territory of about a square foot of usable space, while more aggressive males will want even more. This is what their instincts demand of them so that they can have a better chance to pass on their DNA. By introducing more species groups (and therefor more male fish) you have set up a system where many of the weaker males will be bullied and intimidated by the more alpha oriented fish. This will hinder those weaker males from coloring up (which is really a dominance/mating display) and in the worst cases cause them to be so stressed their health can be compromised, which in the case of bloat can in turn threaten your whole tank. People site the 5 harem groups in a 5 foot tank as a conservative and reliable starting point which gives you your best chance of success with the smallest chance of huge problems. That being said you can always take a shot with a tank like you want and *** seen it work in the long term as long as you're watching your tank and are prepared to remove trouble makers early and often. To synopsize, either tank set up can work, however the more complicated you make the tank hierarchy the more risks you run to have problems. In the end it is your tank and your investment so you should do what makes you happy with that previously mentioned caveat in mind.

Now with that list you've provided you have a pretty big chance of crossbreeding which means since you can't be sure of the lineage you should neither sell or give away the hybrid fish since you won't be able to tell how that fish will behave nor exactly what its bloodlines are. This is essential because you can't control what your hybrids do once they're gone. Someone could breed them and pass them along to someone else as a purebred fish and then everyone else who ends up with one of those wonders why they don't behave anything like they should.

Hope this helps and good luck.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

> People site the 5 harem groups in a 5 foot tank as a conservative and reliable starting point


yeah even for my 6' tank, I've only got 5 species, and generally more peaceful ones at that.


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

which ones do you think will cross breed? I have tried to pick different species and different colours and patterns etc?


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## 702Cichlid (Feb 28, 2010)

Ames said:


> which ones do you think will cross breed? I have tried to pick different species and different colours and patterns etc?


You have two Cynotilapia species, and though they're not identical the run a substantial risk of cross breeding with each other (if i had to guess the Hara would push around the Cobue and make sure he never colors up either).

You have two Metriaclima species (estherae and sp. membe) and those are at a risk to cross breed as well. Fish identify themselves and suitable mates by body shape and size almost as much as color.

If you don't have the numbers right on your male and female ratio for each species an alpha male (a tank boss-type fish) will mate with whomever he pleases. The alpha fish is kind of like Captain Kirk from Star Trek. He'd prefer his own kind, and if you give him enough options he'll stick with him, but he also won't be above hooking up with green chick if there aren't any Enterprise hotties around.

All things being equal, i would probably ditch at least the Cobues, they are a more laid back fish and with every other fish in your tank being more aggressive your afra cobue male will probably never color up completely. I still think you're shooting for too much in a 4' 90 gallon tank with five species (omitting the cobue) because you have chosen some relatively aggressive fish. Remember, this IS your investment and your hobby so you need to do what you want to do, but you're putting yourself into a situation that i think is going to cause you more than a little frustration at times and i still wouldn't recommend selling or gifting fry from this tank.


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

when you say I have to get the female to male ratio right... do you mean make sure i have 1m:4f ? of each species?


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

just out of curiosity what species would you guys recommend?


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

> melanochromis maingano
> metriaclima estherae (red zebra)
> pseudotropheus demasoni
> cynotilapia sp. hara galireya reef
> ...


I'm another vote for not including the afra cobue. I've just heard lots about how they don't really shine in the presence of more aggressive fish. Especially since you already want blue barred dems.

I would definitely only choose 1 of the 2 metriaclimas and wow I would definitely choose the membe deep. How have I never seen these fish before? I think the estherae male will definitely try to mate with membe deep females, and you may have aggression issues between the 2 species.

That leaves you with the mainganos, demasoni, and haras.

The haras should be fine. The dems should be fine as well, but IMO you might want to consider that the dems and the haras might not provide a very pleasing color contrast. Similar, but different. Clashing. Know what I mean?

I would not do maingano with the membes. Similar appearance to the male membe. You'd be asking for aggression trouble there. the maingano are trouble enough on their own.

So from your list, I like...

membes
haras
(dems) <- your call but I wouldn't choose them.

Alternatively, if you like the blue striping of the maingano, but the blue/yellow contrast between males and females of the membes, why not go with johanni?

For a couple more options, there are still some stunning fish.
I expect Labeotropheus trewavasae (Mpanga) may be a future addition to my tank. You could do rusties without any worries. Same with aceis - doesn't have to be the normal varient, there are 2 varients I've seen aside from the commons that I wish I had instead of the commons. You could try albino socolofi - I wouldn't do the normal blue if you do haras and dems.

I like haras, but if you want to try a different cyno in exchange, you could try jalo reefs. I'm found of them as well, but I'm not sure if haras and jalos are appropriate tankmates. No dems if you choose jalos though.

OK, ok, so what would I pick.

membes
hara 
Labeotropheus trewavasae (Mpanga)
aceis - one of the 2 less common varients either the ngara which is the white tail or the Itungi which is amazing, see here for a pic, they're not in the profile section
and for the last
rusties

I like my rusties and they're very prolific, So I'd recommend them as the 5th. I was just able to settle my group down to 1m:4f and he sure keeps his girls busy. Just stripped some fry a week ago from one, and the other 3 are all holding concurrently right now. Might need to grow him up a couple more females to keep him busy enough 

You can also add some catfish like synodontis multipunctatus if you want more variety.

Just my opinion, thats the type of setup I would try out if I had that tank.


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

Ok so the reason I wanted to start a african tank was because I came across the Demasoni... so i definatley cannot drop this fish as this is the whole reason why I have a tank... and secondly the metriaclima estherae (red zebra) is also another reason... these colours are just amazing.

and since I have fallen in love with the maingano's and the cynotilapia hara's!!! these are my main concern... but I still dont have any yellow to even up the colour!!! any suggestions????

will these 4 work together?

Pseudotropheus Demasoni
melanchromis maingano
metriaclima estherae (red zebra)
cynotilapia sp. hara galireya reef

as far as cross breeding these four should work? can i add some labidochromis caeruleus? or do they still clash with the red zebra? even though they are from different genus? I would love to keep the coube, as I fell in love with this fish also


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

The odds of the Yellow Labs and Red Zebras cross-breeding are very high. If you are not going to sell/give away fry from them there is no issue - they will get along plenty fine.

Pseudotropheus Demasoni 
melanchromis maingano 
metriaclima estherae (red zebra) 
cynotilapia sp. hara galireya reef 
labidochromis caeruleus

Sounds beautiful - it you don't distribute Lab/Red Zebra fry no one here should have an issue with that stocking.

Good Luck.


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

yay thanks... but say i did want to keep the fry could I still have these?

Pseudotropheus Demasoni 
melanchromis maingano 
metriaclima estherae (red zebra) 
cynotilapia sp. hara galireya reef

and how could I get some yellow in there?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I think those four will work, but since you want to stick to four species and save fry from all, can't get the yellow. Sorry.


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

is there any other species that is yellow that can mix safley?


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

> Pseudotropheus Demasoni
> melanchromis maingano
> metriaclima estherae (red zebra)
> cynotilapia sp. hara galireya reef


Yes those 4 should be fine, you should be able to keep fry.

I can think of one yellow fish option for a 5th species that is not a lab - Pseudotropheus daktari










Not sure what the hybridization/aggression risk between them and the estherae would be though. I've heard them described as yellow acei, but I've also heard them described as more aggressive as well. Might want to see if anyone has experience with them around here first.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

That looks like a Kenyi/Lab hybrid.

That nose *really *looks like a Metriaclima.


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

so they are no good?


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

also another problem is how many of each do I have... 
I would like to have about 15 of demasoni so 3 males and the rest females 
the red zebras I would like 10 so 2 males and 8 females ... the rest I am not to sure?


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

what about Pseudotropheus crabro?

or

Ps. Msobo Magunga?


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## 702Cichlid (Feb 28, 2010)

Crabro get way too big and aggressive for a 4' tank, also as they get older they become less yellow and more brown and black. They look very cute as adolescents but honestly i think they're an ugly fish once they're full grown.

Ps. Msobo is actually Metriaclima Sp. Msobo, which is a cross breeding/aggression risk with your other metriaclima species and the yellow labs if decide to go that way. Msobo males also can have a horizontal striping of blue and black (some are more mottled than others) which can put them at ends with the Maingano.

Also you metioned wanting to stock 10 Zebras with 2 males. Know that a multiple male stocking will end up with two males staking out territory and becoming very aggressive towards one another. This would really take up 2 of your species slots since both males WILL form their own territory (although often times with 2 males and aggressive fish you end up flushing or rehoming the sub dominant male). 15 dems is a great number but remember they're dwarf mbuna so they don't need as much space and honestly with them gender ratio is less important than having enough fish. If you're going to try and stock 50-60 (just extrapolating your Zebra and Dem numbers across the other 3 species) adult fish in a 90 gallon you really are going to have to have GREAT filtration and probably do daily 20-30% water changes. Stuffing as much as you can into a tank can be done, but are you really prepared to spend an hour a day cleaning/water changing/vacuuming? And in a tank that overstocked you'll never be able to see who isn't feeding or hiding or getting abused and you can get a little case of bloat you don't catch into an epidemic of bloat that wipes out 100s of dollars of your stock...and make no bones about it, 50-60 fish is going to cost you hundreds of dollars easily.

For the record it sounds like you're trying to squeeze every single thing you want into this tank and i think its going to be rough trying to get EVERYTHING you want in a 4ft tank (more species than recommended, higher overstocking than recommended, keeping fry, every possible color etc etc). I think for you the best choice would be to stock the 4-5 species you HAVE to have in harem groups of 1 male to 4-5 females (with the demasoni colony being the exception at 12-15 unsexed fish or so) and just let the holding females spit into the tank. Later if you want to breed one group in particular you could move them over to a 40breeder and keep fry to your hearts content.

Best of luck!


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

thanks! its actually a 5 foot tank and I was told that I couldn't stock the yellow labs because they would clash with the red zebra's? and I guess thats the same case with the msobo?

I dont really understand what your saying about the 2 males? I was told that 1 male to 4 females? so for the red zebra I thought 2 males to 8 females? I am not really sure what I want to do as far as breeding... I will attack that when and if it happens... for this stage I want to keep these fish:

Pseudotropheus Demasoni 
melanchromis maingano 
metriaclima estherae (red zebra) 
cynotilapia sp. hara galireya reef

and I wanted some yellow in there so I was thinking either

metriaclima msobo
or 
labidochromis careleus - but since everyone said this fish is trouble with the red zebra I was hoping that the msobo would be ok?

so my list would look like this???

Pseudotropheus Demasoni 
melanchromis maingano 
metriaclima estherae (red zebra) 
cynotilapia sp. hara galireya reef
metriaclima msobo

I know I keep asking similar questions... but I am still learning and alot of things I dont understand just yet


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Ames said:


> I was told that I couldn't stock the yellow labs because they would clash with the red zebra's? and I guess thats the same case with the msobo?


Same with msobo because red zebras and msobo are both metriaclima.



Ames said:


> I dont really understand what your saying about the 2 males? I was told that 1 male to 4 females? so for the red zebra I thought 2 males to 8 females?


1m:4f of each species except for demasoni. That means 5 fish for that species. Most mbuna will not tolerate another male of their species in the same tank.



Ames said:


> I know I keep asking similar questions... but I am still learning and alot of things I dont understand just yet


Sometimes I find it helpful to read the posts again if I end up confused. I'm always surprised at what I missed the first time and how much more I pick up on second reading.


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

ahhh thankyou! so your saying that except for the demasoni I should only have 1 male fish of each species! thankyou for clearing it up! so it would look like this:

demasoni 12 
red zebras 1m:6f
melanochromis maingano 1m:4f
cynotilapia sp hara: 1m:4f

thanks guys! is there any other yellow fish that I can put in? or is it just not possible to get yellow in a mix?

if i wasnt using this tank for breeding can I add the metriclima msobo? to the list... like 1m:7 females?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'd go higher on the Demasoni to spread aggression, at least 15...I'd actually do 20.

Yes, if you are not saving fry you could try the msobo. They may fight with your zebras though. Since they are both metriaclima.

Really if you are not saving fry I'd do the yellow labs. The yellow is brighter and they will not fight with your zebras.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

No harm in keeping it if you like it. Not sure if it will breed with a RZ.

For your demasoni question, probably 2:13.
RZ's should be fine with 2:8.


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

how many fish can I add at one time? is it best to add all the demasoni at once and then all the red zebra's etc?


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Glaneon said:


> That looks like a Kenyi/Lab hybrid.
> 
> That nose *really *looks like a Metriaclima.


As far as I know, its a real species, not a hybrid. It may be similar to labs/zebras in looks and still be a hybridization risk, but I don't know enough about them to say for sure.

Here's a more reputable link if you don't believe me: http://www.gcca.net/fom/Pseudotropheus_daktari.htm

If I wasn't so attached to my labs, I would track some of these guys down and try them out myself
Cheers! :thumb:


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Color sure looks good on that... but the nose.. the Daktari looks shaped more like a Labidochromis

His pic it definitely has a Metriaclima nose...

No? Am I assigning noses where they shouldn't be?


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

Glaneon said:


> No harm in keeping it if you like it. Not sure if it will breed with a RZ.
> 
> For your demasoni question, probably 2:13.
> RZ's should be fine with 2:8.


so with these 2 species I can have more than 1 male in the tank?


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

and can someone please answer me this?

how many fish can I add at one time? is it best to add all the demasoni at once and then all the red zebra's etc?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Ames said:


> how many fish can I add at one time? is it best to add all the demasoni at once and then all the red zebra's etc?


It depends on how you cycled the tank. Hopefully you are doing a fishless cycle with ammonia as we speak? For a first tank I would suggest adding the fish in groups, but if you are ordering online this may not be realistic.

Ideally you add the timid ones first (labs), aggressive ones last (demasoni). Labs, hara, zebras, maingano, demasoni. You might do the labs and hara together, and then when your ammonia and nitrite have been zero for a week, add the zebras. Maybe one group every 2-4 weeks depending on your water chemistry. By the time you get to the demasoni, you will be OK adding them all at once.



Glaneon said:


> RZ's should be fine with 2:8.


I'm going to disagree with this and say IME with RZ one male per tank works best. After a year when everyone has matured and getting along, if you want to swap a species to keep twice the RZ I'd go for 3m:12f. Only because this is a 60" tank. With two males they target each other too aggressively.



Ames said:


> so with these 2 species I can have more than 1 male in the tank?


With demasoni you can. I've found about 3/tank works and additional sub-dom males tend to be rejected. But remember, both demasoni and red zebras, females are just as colorful as males. So there is less reason to *try* to have multiple males.

In Konings 4th Edition, it's Metriaclima sp. daktari.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Ames said:


> and can someone please answer me this?
> 
> how many fish can I add at one time? is it best to add all the demasoni at once and then all the red zebra's etc?


You posted the same question in another thread where I requested more information...


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

DJRansome said:


> Glaneon said:
> 
> 
> > RZ's should be fine with 2:8.
> ...


I will bow to his considerably more experienced wisdom.


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

Thankyou Glaneon for all your help... and posting in my other thread!

I didnt get to read the messgae about adding the demasoni last! and actually purchased some on the weekend along with some red zebras.. they are quite small only 2-3cm and are great fish! the tank has a nice chemistry so far... I would really like to keep my options open for breeding and would hate to give up having "pure bread" fish as aposed to hybrids... but I am torn because I really want to add some yellow in there... and love the msobo? is there anything else out there that I could add safley? or not 

I did ask this before in another thread...but was a little unsure as to the answer... could I keep some tropheus sp Kaiser with these other fish? and not have any cross breeding?

Pseudotropheus Demasoni 
melanchromis maingano 
metriaclima estherae (red zebra) 
cynotilapia sp. hara galireya reef


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## 702Cichlid (Feb 28, 2010)

If you want a yellow fish i'm afraid you're out of the 'knowing my fry are purebred' category, at least where the Labs/Msobo/Zebra are concerned. The Haras, Demasoni, and and Maingano you could most likely raise fry from without too much concern. Keep in mind, by going for the Msobo for the yellow you will not only risk crossbreeding between the zebras and msobo, but you're also really running a risk of one of the males fighting with/killing the other males...since you've already bought the zebras (which by the way putting two of your three most aggressive fish in early is going to make it rough on whomever you add later, regardless of appearance) i think you'd have a better chance of going with yellow labs if you HAVE to have yellow in the tank and just not keeping fry from the zebras or labs. Sadly, you can't have it both ways with your 'must have' fish. If you had to have yellow and could live without the demasoni you could have gone with Pseudotropheus Saulosi, but if you've already bought fish i think that ship has sailed.

I don't keep tangs personally, so i don't know too much about Tropheus species except that they're really, really hard on each other. Most people keep them like demasoni with large colonies of 12+ fish in a species only tank. They are also much more vulnerable to bloat and by keeping them with other aggressive fish you are running a bigger risk to the trophs as well as any of your other fish. Maybe a Tang expert can chime in but i wouldn't recommend it it with your set up. Of course you could always go ask someone on the Lake Tanganyika forum if you can mix those fish with what you're planning, but i'd say the odds aren't great.

So let me synopsize, since you keep asking the same question over and over again without regard to the answers that everyone has given you. If you want to keep/gift/sell all the fry your tank produces you don't really have a yellow fish that you can add to your stocking list. If you have to have yellow, i'd recommend adding Labs under they caveat that i wouldn't keep/gift/sell any of the zebra or lab fry.

One last heads up for you, most juvenile fish will get along just fine until sexual maturity hits. Don't let the behavior of your juvies trick you into thinking that everything is going to be copacetic once they hit fish-puberty.

Good luck and i hope this helped.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

A single tropheus kaiser would probably be ok in the tank, however it increases risks of crossbreeding plus I think it looks a bit weird to have one single among several groups. If you get more than a single tropheus and less than about 20 or so, they will likely kill each other down to the last one.

As for the msobo, I wouldn't keep them with Met. Estherae. However, if you dropped the Estherae you could definitely add the Met. sp. Msobo and maybe even the yellow labs. Now there would be a small chance for crossing and aggression between labs and msobo, but I've been keeping the two together in the same tank for over a year and have not observed either male displaying for the wrong females or anything beyond the standard occasional chase (usually the female msobo chasing a female YL).


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

thanks for your suggestions but I have already added the red zebras!


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

so would I be able to add over 20 to avoid fighting/killing? or would there still be a crossbreeding issue? and if so with which fish?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

To add 20 tropheus you would want to swap some of your other species. Not sure how successful the mix would be so I'm reading member responses to see if people have mixed them successfully for 2 years or more.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

Ames said:


> so would I be able to add over 20 to avoid fighting/killing? or would there still be a crossbreeding issue? and if so with which fish?


I know only 2 people who have kept a colony of tropheus long-term. Both have done so with just Tropheus (20 or more) in the tank. Nothing else except maybe catfish. I'm not sure how a colony of tropheus would do with mbuna. Maybe try asking in the "general african cichlid discussion" section of this website.


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## Ames (Nov 24, 2010)

well thanks guys for all your help... looks like its going to be these fish with no yellow 

Pseudotropheus Demasoni 
melanchromis maingano 
metriaclima estherae (red zebra) 
cynotilapia sp. hara galireya reef

thanks for everyones help


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