# When does nitrate start to appear,source of bacteria?



## TKC747 (Dec 5, 2008)

It's day 14 and ammonia has been holding at 1ppm, nitrite and nitrate 0ppm...

How high does your ammonia have to be before bacteria starts converting to nitrite? Usually how many days does it take for some ammonia to be converted to nitrite? Is the NYCity water irradiated and the bacteria neutralized? I thought the beneficial bacteria were everywhere! Am I being impatient?

cycling with one fish, feeding once a day

Day ammonia nitrite nitrate
6 --------------------------25% water change
10 , 1ppm , 0 , 0
11 , 1ppm , 0 , 0 50% water change
13 , ---- 0 nitirite , -
14 , 1ppm 0 , 0

any input would be helpful thanks


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## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

if you are using fish to cycle your tank then you need more than what you have. also the cycling process is really bad on the fish. what type of fish are you using?

i would say if you only had 1 fish in there and were trying to cycle the tank it would take 1 1/2 monthes but you could have limited beneficial bacteria so that when you went and added 4-5 of the fish you wanted to keep you could have another cycle to go through.

3 choices

1) get more fish like the one you are cycling the tank with (as long as you dont care if the fish die or if you are not going to keep them long time)

2) take the fish out and do a fishless cycling (plenty of articles on fishless cycling)

3) go find some filter media from a tank that is already cycled and add that into your filter. you will still need more fish to keep the good bacteria alive.


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## TKC747 (Dec 5, 2008)

I wanted to do a fishless cycle but after spending almost $10.00 on transportation, going to several hardware stores, (I do not drive) I could not find ammonia without surfactants in it so I decided to do a cycle with fish. I want the fish to survive because it is a yellow lab...my LFS does not take back fish used to cycle so I tried one yellow lab, instead of some other species as I do not want hybrids. I've done water changes and resorted to using ammo-lock to keep the ammonia in the tank, so I'm just waiting for the bacteria to start up ...as for the filter media, I'll be joining a fish club to network, no one I know has fish, so that's a week or two away...guess I'll just have to wait

If I add fish, how many should I add?

Thanks


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## Neogenesis (Jan 4, 2008)

How large of a tank are we talking about and what are you using for filtration?


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

When I did my fishless cycle, the ammonia drop and nitrite spike happened pretty much overnight - I went from 2ppm ammonia and 0 nitrite to 0 ammonia and nitrite off the chart in 24 hours. I didn't see a gradual change. So my guess is that one day soon your ammonia will be gone and you will see nitrites.

The bacteria is everywhere aparently. I was told the bacteria gets into a fresh tank from the air.

After you have nitrites, I do not yet know how long it takes for them to convert to nitrate. Today is day 13 for me since my ammonia dropped to 0, and 27 days since I first started cycling, so assuming both bacteria types have the same growth rate, I expect to have 0 nitrites tomorrow. While testing for nitrites, I got some tetra 5-in-1 test strips because its quicker and more convenient to watch for the nitrite drop that way. Anyways, I've noticed on the test strip that i also have nitrates already, even though I still have nitrites in the system. This tells me that there are some nitrobacter bacteria in my tank converting the nitrite into nitrate, so its only a matter of time until they double enough to convert all of it. I'm thinking it has to happen any day now.


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## TKC747 (Dec 5, 2008)

*Neogenesis*wrote


> How large of a tank are we talking about and what are you using for filtration?


I have a 1 inch juv yellow lab in a 20 gallon Long, Wanted to add 5 more juveniles before I can set them up in a 55 gallon (4 months away at least due to budget considerations) I wanted to grow them out for a few months in the 20gal, then keep it cycled by using flakes once a week to keep the cycle going...I am using a penguin 200 (200 gph = 10 times 20 gallons) I believe its at least twice the recommended gph. It has a biowheel which after 14 days since I added fish has no bacteria to speak of, no nitrite spike, Ammonia holding steady at 1ppm since day 10 (no data before as I did not have the test kit arrive in the mail until then)

*Rhinox*, what level ppm ammonia did you have at highest?

Thanks

just a reminder, couldn't get pure ammonia solution... had to cycle with fish, trying to do it carefully


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## Neogenesis (Jan 4, 2008)

TKC747 said:


> I've done water changes and resorted to using ammo-lock to keep the ammonia in the tank,


Here is my suggestion, and by the way I did cycle my tank with fish, which was a 29G at the time.

I've read so many threads with people screwing up their tanks because they don't have the patience to let the tank cycle and they just keep throwing chemicals at it. Let it take it's course and just monitor the levels in the tank. Do the appropriate water changes and you'll be fine. With a 20G tank, and a 1 inch juvie, your not creating much waste so it is going to take longer to cycle. You could easily add another juvie without much worry. Again, you have to monitor the levels in the tank and do the appropriate water changes and you won't have any trouble.

Scott


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## TKC747 (Dec 5, 2008)

*Neogenesis* wrote:


> I've read so many threads with people screwing up their tanks because they don't have the patience to let the tank cycle and they just keep throwing chemicals at it


Thanks, I didn't want to use ammo-lock but I was really worried about the lab. With a 50 % water change the other day, that means half of my ammonia is gone, and half the bacteria floating in the water...so supposedly, the ammolock will make it still possible for the bacteria to convert to nitrites...I guess the best thing to do is to buy another juvenile yellow lab, and buy a few more in a few weeks when the tank looks to be cycled chemically.

And I will definately *not* be adding any more chemicals


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

> Rhinox, what level ppm ammonia did you have at highest?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> just a reminder, couldn't get pure ammonia solution... had to cycle with fish, trying to do it carefully


Well, I tried to always keep my ammonia around 2ppm, but i might have let it drift up to 4ppm at one point. No big deal though. Since my ammonia was converted, I've only been adding the equivalent of 2ppm per day, so thats what my bacteria are able to convert.

One thing to keep in mind is ppm is a concentration, not an absolute amount of ammonia. The filter doesn't really care about ppm when its converting ammonia as long as it has ammonia to convert. The reason I say this is because tank size plays a part. Just because 2 tanks are cycled to the same concentration does not mean they can handle the same bio load. If you have 1 fish in a 20g compared to the same fish in a 200g, the filters in both tank will be able to handle the exact same bio load when cycled, but the concentration of the ammonia in the smaller tank before it is cycled will be higher than the concentration of that ammonia in the larger tank. The reason we can give a ppm amount of ammonia to use for cycling is because we don't stock a small tank with the same number of fish as a big tank, and in general, the concentration of ammonia for appropriately fully stocked tanks of every size should in theory rise at the same rate.

The take away from this is that since the ammonia in your tank is 1ppm, that is only .08mL of ammonia in the 20g tank. Your filter will originally contain enough bacteria to convert that .08mL of ammonia, but then it will adjust to the ammonia output of the fish, which will be much less than .08mL of ammonia per day. My tank is a 55g cycled to 2ppm ammonia, which is .4mL of ammonia. Since I'm adding pure ammonia every day, My filter will be able to handle a bio load of fish that can produce .4mL of ammonia in a day.

The good news is that since you have a smaller ammount of ammonia, it should take much less time to grow enough bacteria to convert it. The downside is that you will have to be careful when adding new fish because your biofilter will have to grow to accomodate.

In a cycled tank, if you add 1 fish, it will take 24 hours for your bacteria colony to grow to accomodate. If you add 3 more fish, it will take 48hours. If you add 7 more fish, it will take 3 days. You will have to monitor ammonia during that time and a little after to make sure ammonia doesn't spike before the bacteria colony can grow to accomodate. The reason is bacteria colonies take about 24 hours to double, and in a cycled tank, both types of bacteria can grow at just about the same time.

If you add fish before your tank is cycled, it will not cycle your tank quicker. It will, however, mean that your filter can handle a larger bio load once it is finished. In the meantime, your ammonia concentration will grow quicker. I.e. if you add just one more fish before your tank is cycled, your ammonia concentration will grow twice as quickly and you'll have do do water changes twice as often. Plus, it will take longer to cycle the tank because more bacteria needs to grow. On the other hand, if you wait and finish the cycle with your one fish, you can then add a second fish and in 24 hours your bacteria colony will be able to double to handle the new bio load, and you probably won't see any ammonia spike. In theory, you could double your bioload every day this way, once you have a cycled tank.


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## Dj823cichild (Mar 30, 2009)

When I was cycling my tanks, fishless wize I didn't do any water changes at all. I just waited things out and let the bacteria do it's work and build up. Why would you change the water your trying to build up with benefical bacteria? It's pretty much defeating the purpose. If you think about it your taking out the water your trying to build up and putting in fresh water and starting the whole process over again. I hope you work things out and remain patient that's the biggest thing is Patience! If you get that down you will be golden :thumb:


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

As long as there is some level of ammoniaâ€¦ your tank will accommodate bacteriaâ€¦ Keeping higher levels will not make the bacteria arrive any faster.

As mentioned, bacteria does just float into the tank by air. This is why it takes some people one week to see ammonia drop and some people three weeks. It all depends on how long it takes to have a bacterium land in your tank. Seeding your tank with a bit of media from a mature tank will instantly put a bit of bacteria in the tank which quickly expands into a full colony.

I do not agree at all that having one fish (small ammonia source) will make your cycle take longer. It is much more dependant on how long it takes for a bacterium to happen to land in your tank.

Although I do agree that once â€œcycledâ€


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## tranced (Jan 11, 2006)

you may want to consider asking your LFS to put a bit of their gravel in the bag when you buy a fish to cycle your tank with. then you have the bacteria source and ammonia source all at once.


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## TKC747 (Dec 5, 2008)

*Dj823cichild* wrote:


> When I was cycling my tanks, fishless wize I didn't do any water changes at all. I just waited things out and let the bacteria do it's work and build up. Why would you change the water your trying to build up with benefical bacteria? It's pretty much defeating the purpose.


I'm *not* doing a fishless cycle, I am doing with fish and I want that fish to survive because the LFS doesn't take back fish especially if you've been cycling with them...poor health and all. But you are right, I hope the bacteria level isn't a function of levels of ammonia per se. I'm trying to balance the amount of ammonia with the health of the fish, so I *must* do water changes when ammo levels get too high. Too much of a water change is I think defeating the purpose but some water change is needed to maintain the health of the fish.

Day 16 ammonia 2ppm nitrite nitrate both 0 still, 50 % water change, fish looks healthy, still has appetite, no red on gills or fins, not at surface trying to breathe...


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## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

its going to take a long time doing your current method. Go get some filter media from a tank that is already cycled. You'll be amazed at how quick you will start seeing good levels. i still think you have atleast a month if you continue your current way.

just want to save you some time and frustration


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## TKC747 (Dec 5, 2008)

Thanks, I'm joining my local fish club next week (Wed), So I can ask around there...what to do? I want the poor little guy to survive...all this for a $4 fish? :lol:


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## Neogenesis (Jan 4, 2008)

Just get some filter media from a club member, put it in your filter. Viola.......it's easy as that.

Scott


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## TKC747 (Dec 5, 2008)

What the H#$%@? Got nitrAtes, but no NitrIte appeared before getting the nitrAtes, and ammonia is still 1ppm


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## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

what type of test kit are you using?


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## TKC747 (Dec 5, 2008)

> what type of test kit are you using?


API MAster test kit


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## TKC747 (Dec 5, 2008)

YAY, Bacterial Bloom, finally its starting to cycle


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