# 20long or 29long for multi's and brevis



## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

i am going to try my luck with some brevis and or multi's. i have two choices for a tank. a 20long or 29long. the foot print is the same, only the height is different. can the 29long accomodate more fish or do they hang on the bottom and it won't matter?

thanks.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

They both stay fairly close to the bottom of the tank so I would choose the 20 long myself. Only do one of those species in the tank, not both of them.


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

thanks for the suggestion! i didn't realize the two species shouldn't be together. this is a learning curve for me and i appreciate it. another local store is getting another species in stock but i can't remember the name. regardless, should i only keep one species in a 20 or 29 gallon tank?

thank you.


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

i belive the other species that the local store is getting is ocellatus.


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## TMB60 (Jan 6, 2011)

One shellie species per tank is the standard recommendation, especially in a 20 or 29.

I have a 20L Multie tank which I find to be the perfect size. Great tank!

Tom


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

looked at some info on the multie's. i sure like them. nice and small. any chance i could have 5 multie's and 5 ocellatus in a 20l? if not thats fine. i'll stick with one or the other.

thanks!


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## Darkskies (Mar 17, 2012)

kwilliby said:


> looked at some info on the multie's. i sure like them. nice and small. any chance i could have 5 multie's and 5 ocellatus in a 20l? if not thats fine. i'll stick with one or the other.
> 
> thanks!


No, that's very unlikely to work.. The ocellatus are a lot more feisty individually and will take over most of the shells and stress the multies.


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

thanks! glad i didn't do that. some of the local store owners don't know much about these little guys.

also,

i've seen on other sites that with multies you can leave the fry with the parents for quite awhile until the tank gets populated too heavily. is this true?

and is this that way with the ocellatus?


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## Darkskies (Mar 17, 2012)

Yes, you can leave the fry with multies essentially forever. They are a colony guarding fish so the new fry are protected by all the other multies in the colony. As they grow older they protect their siblings and newer fry as well.

With Ocellatus it's different and more typical of cichlids. The parents will protect the fry for a while but once they've grown old enough the parents are likely to banish them from their area to seek out a life of their own. Also, the parents spawn continuously and older fry are likely to eat younger siblings if there is a great enough age/size difference. In addition to that other ocellatus(apart from the mated pair/harem) are likely to attack each other and engage in territorial squabbles regularly. Once a dominant male has formed a pair or harem, other males will likely be killed or banished to a corner unless the proper space/territory requirements are available.


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

that is valuable information! thanks so much.

i stopped over lunch at a local store that had a bunch of multies. i REALLY liked their color bands etc. i think that's what i'm going to buy. they sound perfect for me.

my biggest issue is how many and is there a way to sex them. i've read the males get to be about 2" and the females 1" fully grown. in this guys tank there are about 25 of them . i saw some about 1 1/2" and a lot that were about 1/2 ".

should i buy a large one and several small ones and hope for the best?

thanks again!


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

You can ask the store if the Multies in that tank are all from the same spawn. If they are, I would choose an assortment of sizes so you should get lucky getting at least 1 male and a few females. I like to start with 6 fish because that gives you a good chance of getting fish of the opposite sex.

Is the 20 long already set up and properly cycled?


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

the 20l has been setup for about six weeks. i have a foam filter. i have had some kreps in there and they are doing fine. just today i moved the kreps, swapped out the gravel for sand and changed about 2 gal of the water. i didn't touch the foam filter. i put a few tetras back in the tank for 'testers'. do you think i can add some multie's tomorrow? or do i need to wait?

thanks.


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## DNK (Jun 8, 2007)

kwilliby said:


> do you think i can add some multie's tomorrow? or do i need to wait?
> 
> thanks.


Depends if the tank has cycled or not. Have you been testing for ammonia, nitrates, nitrites, pH etc?
What is a Krep by the way?
If you've had other fish in there for the past 6 weeks doing the cycling for you and they're all fine, I'd say that the tank would be fine (if the general water conditions for multis have been met that is.)


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

i'll test the water today to be sure its ok.

not kreps, sorry. i meant kribs (kribensis) . it was a long day.


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

regarding the water. i've read the water should be high ph and hard. i have a water softener in my house and have been useing it. my other fish have been doing fine in the soft water. but do i need to swap out the soft water for hard water for the multies?

thanks.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

If you have a gH or kH test kit, that would be helpful to determine if your water is suitable Africans.

I bypass my water softener for my fish and they have no complaints. I don't know if that is an option for you.

The pH doesn't have to to be high, it just needs to be stable. Mine do fine at 7.6 pH.


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

i can bypass the water softener. I'll do that next time I do a water change. If it is ok to leave this water asis I'll then add some multies this weekend and change the water slowly over time to harder water. My other cichlids have been fine in this water and i was hoping the multies would be as well. otherwise I have to change all of the water and then get the tank cycling again before adding the fish.

let me know if you have any other suggestions.

thanks!


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Do you have those test kits I suggested or can you have your water tested for them at the LFS?


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

I had my water tested at a LFS. I also have a ph test kit and most of the other testers as well. They said all of my levels were excellent. ph was about 7.5. i added a little ph upper to bump it just a little.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

You are fine with a pH of 7.5 for Tanganyika cichlids. I wouldn't bother messing with products that you need to add. It can get expensive and there is always the possibility of over/under dosing.

It is really to your advantage to do your own water testing at home. It gives you a better understanding of your water parameters and really lets you know if you need to mess with your water.

I find that the test kits new fish keepers should have are for pH, gH, kH, ammonia, nitrIte and nitrAte. I prefer the API test kits but you can check out the Reviews section for other suggestions. There are also great articles in the Library regarding water parameters.


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## Ptyochromis (Mar 23, 2012)

7.5 is fine. Don't mess with your PH, it will only lead to trouble and can stress the heck out of your fish if you make tiny mistakes. The real thing you need to worry about with tanganyikans in a new tank is namely ammonia. http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/AmmoniaTox.html#ammonia1ppm Ammo is more toxic in alkaline/warm water. I wouldn't stock any tangs in a tank that hasn't been fully cycled. I (and i think most of us) use api freshwater master test kit, it has everything u need except KH/GH. But TBH you don't really even need those. As long as you keep your parameters STEADY and CONSISTENT our fish will adjust to your water. Most multies you get come from multi-generational captive breeders so they will be much more tolerant of many different water conditions. If you feel your water is to acidic you can always add a texas holey rock to your tank or some crushed coral to the filter. This changes the KH slowly vs adding PH up or some other **** that may cause constant swings in your PH/hardnesses. Just know that with crushed coral/ lots of calcareous rock you are limited to small frequent water changes, as to avoid large dips in PH. I also wouldn't bother with crushed coral or calcareous rock in a tank under 40g.

In all my experience with shellies/tanganyikans, breeding success has ALWAYS come down to tank setup. Meticulous attention to replication of the physical wild environment. Multies I know, come from both shell beds; wide areas of empty freshwater snail shells (N.tanganyicense) several shells deep. Multis are also quite at home in small caves and crevices formed by piles of stones (generally up against a shell bed, but not always). Substrate can be sand or fine gravel up to 1mm in diameter; sand and fine gravel can be mixed (as this is also found in the wild). Tank setups for other species can vary widely, not all will appreciate the same conditions as multies (most wont ime).

TLR, dont stress the PH, stress the tank setup


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## Storiwyr (Apr 24, 2012)

+1 for not mucking with pH too much. Particularly not with pH upper type stuff, I don't think that buffers? So it's a temporary and not very trustworthy solution to a nonproblem. I use a Rift Lake buffer that I really like. A buffer is a special compound that can act as either an acid or a base depending on the pH of its environment. This means that the buffer will help keep your pH steady by being an acid if the pH rises, and a base if the pH drops. It's a pretty neat thing, from a chemistry perspective. Even I probably don't have to use the Rift Lake buffer, I just enjoy maintaining a pH around that of the natural environment. It's better to keep it stable at a lower pH than to have it fluctuate in an attempt to get the pH up.

Also +1 to being SURE your tank is cycled with Tangs. I had a cycling mishap with my Tang tank, and lost all of my Calvus within 24 hours. It was really discouraging.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

kwilliby said:


> I had my water tested at a LFS. I also have a ph test kit and most of the other testers as well. They said all of my levels were excellent. ph was about 7.5. i added a little ph upper to bump it just a little.


You need to focus on KH (buffers), not pH. Buffers stabilize pH. A wide range of pH values is fine, the important thing is stability and the avoidance of a pH crash. Get KH up to 8-10 by adding baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) and let pH fall where it will. See Practical Water Chemistry.

Get the API kits, both 'Master' and the GH/KH kit. Test and know the pH, KH, GH, and nitrate levels of your source water. Know specifics. Having someone say your levels are 'excellent' isn't helpful. Best to not depend on having someone at a local shop advise you with this. They'll almost always sell you something to take home and add to your tank. Less is more. Throw away the pH adjusters.

Don't buy the commercial buffers, just use sodium bicarbonate, if needed. Cheap and easy to do and then you know what you're adding to your tank.

Just my .02


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

thanks to everyone for the excellent advice. i'll get the test kits advised above and test my water tonight myself. i know my water is soft since it all came from my home which has a water softener. that was my first concern. that maybe it is too soft. i'll test it and see how things go. i don't want to kill $70 worth of fish and have to start over.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I'd test the water pre-softener and use that, if you can. It's probably ideal for rift lake cichlids.


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

very good idea. i'll test the pre-softened water. if i have to i will change all the water in the 20L and then get it cycling before adding fish. i want to do it right the first time. its not just the money , i hate killing the fish because of my ignorance. some fish stores will just tell you to not worry and dump the fish in there. they know you will be back to buy more when they die.


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

here is what i did. i bypassed my water softener. replaced all of the water. got the api gh/ph test kit. kh was 9 drops and gh was 21 drops. looking at their conversion chart i think this looks good just using my tap water. ph is about 8.0. i used some seacheam prime, cichlid lake salt and stability to get the tank stable.... hopefully. i havent added any fish yet. 
i have a sponge filter that is 4-6 weeks old to seed the thank. 
u think this is ok to start with?

thanks


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## Ptyochromis (Mar 23, 2012)

I would advise against messing with the GH/KH/PH. The fish will get used to your tap water. Adding things to the water can lead to swings in chemistry, even minor changes can cause the fish stress.

When I first started keeping tanganyikan species, I thought I needed to keep exact water parameters. But after much difficulty, I can to realize that keeping your parameters CONSISTENT is far more important than trying to maintain exact parameters.

Leave your water alone, it's far less important than you think.


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

i think your advise is right on. i tested my tap water to see what is was like. i think it will be just fine as long as i bypass my softener.

the api stability is just some bacteria (stuff) to help with a brand new setup. i do have a seasoned foam filter and i think this will be fine as well. i didn't think the 'stability' would hurt anything. so basically i just have tap water treated to remove the alkaline etc. and added some cichlid salt. seems pretty easy. i'll do small water changes to keep things stable. i'm planning on getting 6 multies tuesday and see how things go.

thanks again.


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## Ptyochromis (Mar 23, 2012)

Just remember that when water evaporates out of the tank, your dissolved solids will go up (increase in DH/GH). Continuing to top off the aquarium with hardness adjusted water will only increase your levels. When you change your water your levels will drop again, leading to swings in hardness.


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

if i do a 10% water change every 2 weeks will that prevent that?

Or what do others do to prevent these swings? Use 'Buffers' etc?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Or what do others do to prevent these swings? Use 'Buffers' etc?


To the OP, see my previous post. Test and know the KH of both your source water and tank. Also see Practical Water Chemistry in the forum library. If your source water has adequate buffers (8-10 or so), then water changes will replenish them just fine. If not, use sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). Do not ignore KH. GH you can ignore IME.

And let me clarify, in YOUR case, you should be fine with your source water (pre-softener). But, everyone should check and know their KH value if keeping rift lake cichlids.


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

thank you for clarifying this . i think i understand now. my source non-softened water is just right. i'll keep an eye on the kh of the tank between water changes. i will test it again tonite before adding my fish. sorry if some of my questions were redundant. i just didn't understand these water measurements.

i'll let you know how it goes.


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## Ptyochromis (Mar 23, 2012)

kwilliby said:


> if i do a 10% water change every 2 weeks will that prevent that?
> 
> Or what do others do to prevent these swings? Use 'Buffers' etc?


10% every 2 wks not enough. I would do a 10% 4x a week. You can also do 2 5g changes (in a 20g) a week. Frequent small water changes is preferable to weekly large changes. I like to do many little changes in my large tanks, it saves me lots of time to do a 5g change every day vs draining 20-30g once a week. It also save the fish from mild temp shock.


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

i have to be honest. if i need to do that many water changes for these shellies, i may reconsider. i really don't have a lot of time for that many changes during the week. i do my current water changes on the weekend. so far my other fish have tolerated it fine. but they are tetras, blue ram cichlids and kribensis cichlids. maybe i should stick with them. if i can do a weekly water change on the weekend i can manage that. if not, then i better rethink these cute little fish.

thank you.


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## Storiwyr (Apr 24, 2012)

10% every two weeks is not enough. A weekly water change should be fine, though you would need to do more than 10% in that case. As long as you match the water parameters in terms of temperature and pH, and you dechlorinate the water, I don't think you need to do them more than once a week. How many water changes and how much is a matter of some debate, but lots of people successfully keep fish while doing only weekly water changes, some do huge water changes (razorback, I believe it is, does 80% water changes regularly). The important thing, though, with a smaller tank like a 20g/29g is to realize that it will be susceptible to changes in water chemistry and temperature moreso than a larger tank, because there is less water to 'disperse' changes, if that makes sense.


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

Storiwyr said:


> 10% every two weeks is not enough. A weekly water change should be fine, though you would need to do more than 10% in that case. As long as you match the water parameters in terms of temperature and pH, and you dechlorinate the water, I don't think you need to do them more than once a week. How many water changes and how much is a matter of some debate, but lots of people successfully keep fish while doing only weekly water changes, some do huge water changes (razorback, I believe it is, does 80% water changes regularly). The important thing, though, with a smaller tank like a 20g/29g is to realize that it will be susceptible to changes in water chemistry and temperature moreso than a larger tank, because there is less water to 'disperse' changes, if that makes sense.


That does make sense. I think I will try 6 multies and do a weekly water change. I may try 5g every week and see how that goes. or start testing the water often and see if its changing. i think with a small number of fish that would also help since the bio load will be smaller. time will tell if this works. if not, its not the first time i messed up and had to start something over.

thank you very much for the info.


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

if i go forward with this tank i do have one small issue that can be a pain. i can bypass my water softener and my hard water is about right. but i only have cold non-softened water. the temp is going to be too cold. now i have to warm it up somehow or take softened water and make it 'hard'.

any suggestions would be appreciated.


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## Dawg2012 (May 10, 2012)

Let a 5g bucket sit for a day to get up to room temperature? Is that close to tank temp? Just a thought...


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## Storiwyr (Apr 24, 2012)

Dawg2012 said:


> Let a 5g bucket sit for a day to get up to room temperature? Is that close to tank temp? Just a thought...


This will work well if you keep your home at the temp most people keep theirs at ... 75-80ish?


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

my home is usually around 76 degrees. this may work. or i do have an extra tank heater. i could warm it up with that over night. i'll experiment.

a guy at the LFS told me to buy API African mineral salt and Buffer Max Cichlid.

I did buy the mineral salt but didn't buy the buffer max.

i'm trying to keep things simple and not put too much stuff in the water. seems like i've ran into issues when i have done that in the past.

thanks!


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## Storiwyr (Apr 24, 2012)

That would work even better! One word of advice though ... make sure if you use a tank heater to warm it up, that you submerse it properly. I've heard that if run improperly (too much or all exposed) they can explode.


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

kwilliby said:


> my home is usually around 76 degrees. this may work. or i do have an extra tank heater. i could warm it up with that over night. i'll experiment.
> 
> a guy at the LFS told me to buy API African mineral salt and Buffer Max Cichlid.
> 
> ...


correction.

i bougth Seachem Cichlid Lake Salt. (too many different brands and things go buy IMO)


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## Ptyochromis (Mar 23, 2012)

Shoot, if you aren't doing anything to the tap water other than de-chlorinating it you can just chuck it in. In a 20 or 29 5g a week should be enough. Just take out your 5g of water, fill 5g of water from the tap, chuck in the de-chlorinator and pour/siphon it right into the tank. Seachem prime is the best de-chlorinator by FAR. I would also return that 'lake salt' you don't need it; it will also complicate water changes, planning a day in advance of when you want to do your water changes, letting it sit for a day so you can analize over the KH,GH and PH really isn't worth doing for almost no benefit.

I have had a much much lower spawning rate when I mess with chemistry vs just letting it be. All you need is dechlor.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Seachem prime is the best de-chlorinator by FAR.


I would disagree with that. I don't like the conditioners that throw in all the gimmicky, unnecessary stuff like the slime coat 'enhancers'. Go with a simple dechlorinator. Ammolock is a goo one if you're dealing with chloramine. For anyone with chlorine only to deal with, go with the cheapest stuff you can find. I make up my own with sodium thiosulfate crystals. Don't fall for the marketing stuff you find all over the bottles in the local shops. You just need to deal with the chlorine/chloramine. If it does that, it's as good as it gets.



> letting it sit for a day so you can analize over the KH,GH and PH really isn't worth doing for almost no benefit.


Let's be clear. In his situation when he knows buffers are adequate out of the tap, it's not necessary. In some people's situation getting the buffers (KH) boosted and in a good range is very important.


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## Ptyochromis (Mar 23, 2012)

prov356 said:


> > Seachem prime is the best de-chlorinator by FAR.
> 
> 
> I would disagree with that. I don't like the conditioners that throw in all the gimmicky, unnecessary stuff like the slime coat 'enhancers'. Go with a simple dechlorinator.


Sechem prime only deals with chlorine, chloramine, ammonia and nitrite. Doesn't do anything for a slime coat (although it says it does). It also only temporarily neutralizes ammonia (for 24h or so), which is very useful if you have lots of chloramine in your water as chloramine has ammonia in it. It can be useful to temporarily neutralize the ammonia that comes along with the chloramine so your filters have a chance to break it down. I like using it because it is rather inexpensive 10 USD for 500ml. It is also chalked full of sulfates . It probably accomplishes the same goal as your sulfate mixture but I the the convince of it; to each his own.

I also don't see the point of adding buffers, unless you are using RO/DI or something. The vast majority of water suppliers buffer their water as to help their pipes last longer. His water pre-water softener is within limits so there should be no reason to do anything to the water other than dechlor it.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I also don't see the point of adding buffers, unless you are using RO/DI or something. The vast majority of water suppliers buffer their water as to help their pipes last longer. His water pre-water softener is within limits so there should be no reason to do anything to the water other than dechlor it.


Too broad of a generalization and isn't always the case. All should test their source water. There have been lots of posts here over the years from folks with low buffers in their source water. It's not just for RO/DI. It's for any water with inadequate buffers. I wouldn't make a sweeping generalization to all that read here that they shouldn't worry about buffers ever. You'll get someone's tank in trouble eventually. In the OP's case, I'd agree, no need to buffer. I believe I said that in a previous post.


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## Ptyochromis (Mar 23, 2012)

prov356 said:


> > I also don't see the point of adding buffers, unless you are using RO/DI or something. The vast majority of water suppliers buffer their water as to help their pipes last longer. His water pre-water softener is within limits so there should be no reason to do anything to the water other than dechlor it.
> 
> 
> Too broad of a generalization and isn't always the case. All should test their source water. There have been lots of posts here over the years from folks with low buffers in their source water. It's not just for RO/DI. It's for any water with inadequate buffers. I wouldn't make a sweeping generalization to all that read here that they shouldn't worry about buffers ever. You'll get someone's tank in trouble eventually. In the OP's case, I'd agree, no need to buffer. I believe I said that in a previous post.


I suppose you are right, I know well water can be especially soft. I suppose I take for granted that I get 8.2PH @ 7dKG/8dGH out of the tap. Sorry for being so argumentative .



kwilliby said:


> thank you for clarifying this . i think i understand now. my source non-softened water is just right. i'll keep an eye on the kh of the tank between water changes. i will test it again tonite before adding my fish. sorry if some of my questions were redundant. i just didn't understand these water measurements.
> 
> i'll let you know how it goes.


pH is more or less the measure of protons(H+) in the water/solution. Acids release protons(H+) which can be measured to determine the re-activity of the solution. pH is measured on a logarithmic scale, so a pH of 5 is 100 times more acidic than a pH of 6 and 6 is 10 times more acidic than 7 etc(I _could_ be wrong on this, but I can't be bothered to do the math lol).

Op, just remember, KH is carbonate hardness; this is the ability to neutralize an acid. Carbonate and bicarbonate react with acids in water neutralizing them; I will spare you the details but basically the higher the KH the more carbonate/bicarbonate is disolved in the water and more acid can be added to the solution before PH changes are observed. You can observe this when you mix vinegar with baking soda or pour vinegar over texas holey rock.

GH, general hardness is just the measure of ions in the water.

This isn't a half bad read: http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/alkalinity.html


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

not to complicate matters any, but has anyone used the Seachem Multitest PH and Alkalinity test instead of the API KH/GH test? a local fish store guy tried to see me this for testing. i have to be honest. i get confused when they talk about two tests, PH and Alkalinity. I thought PH was acid of low, netral at 7.0 and higher was alkaline?

sorry if i'm dragging this on too long.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

kwilliby said:


> not to complicate matters any, but has anyone used the Seachem Multitest PH and Alkalinity test instead of the API KH/GH test? a local fish store guy tried to see me this for testing. i have to be honest. i get confused when they talk about two tests, PH and Alkalinity. I thought PH was acid of low, netral at 7.0 and higher was alkaline?
> 
> sorry if i'm dragging this on too long.


It can get confusing, which is why I try to use simple terms in my own mind and here on the forum even if a chemist would cringe.

For pH, I think of it as either acidic, neutral, or alkaline.

If talking about raising KH, then I call it raising 'buffers', as it buffer's against a pH crash, or sudden drop to very acidic levels.

I reserve the term 'hardness' when referring to GH.

KH and pH go hand in hand. GH has little or nothing to do with either. I generally ignore it unless dealing with fish that require very soft water.

From a hobbyist standpoint, buffers, KH, and alkalinity refer to the same thing, but I avoid the use of the term 'alkalinity' here because it just tends to confuse.

So, my simple guideline is to keep KH (buffers) up to 8-10 or so to stabilize pH. If buffers are up, then pH will usually be on the alkaline side. How high depends, and reaching a specific value isn't important. Buffering water with sodium bicarbonate will usually bring the pH up to about 8.2 - 8.4. Don't adjust pH, adjust buffers and let pH fall where it will.

And, of course, we're talking about rift lake or other cichlids that like alkaline water.


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## Ptyochromis (Mar 23, 2012)

Alkalinity = KH; AKA, the ability to neutralize an acid.

Never used seachem's tests, if they are test 'strips' don't use them. Liquid tests are far more reliable.


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

prov356 said:


> kwilliby said:
> 
> 
> > not to complicate matters any, but has anyone used the Seachem Multitest PH and Alkalinity test instead of the API KH/GH test? a local fish store guy tried to see me this for testing. i have to be honest. i get confused when they talk about two tests, PH and Alkalinity. I thought PH was acid of low, netral at 7.0 and higher was alkaline?
> ...


So it would be very possible for my Softened water to have a KH in the proper range but the GH could be much too soft for these fish?

I think i'll test my soft water again just for grins.


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## Ptyochromis (Mar 23, 2012)

I would avoid using the 'softened water' in your aquarium. There are many different methods to soften water, many use chemicals and some even release sodium. I would stay away from the softened water and use only the water before it hits the softener. (No idea how you can stand to shower in that stuff; leaves my skin feeling soapy and icky ).


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## kwilliby (Jul 30, 2012)

i'll use the pre-softened water. my other fish are in soft water. But I have noticed my kribensis have stopped spawning. maybe that has something to do with it.

at first the soft water seemed a little weird. but now i love it. makes my skin softer.


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