# Bolivian Ram Lip Locking



## mwomack (Oct 4, 2011)

After the loss of my male, I recently bought a new bolivian ram (due to the return policy at lfs I cannot buy a group  ). I'm pretty sure they gave me a female (using the "tube" method to determine sex). My rams are lip locking, charging, and chasing each other around the tank. Since I believe I have two females, would adding a male stop this). Is this just a normal territorial behavior even for two females. Advice on separating them, let them work it out, I'm a newbie to rams and having a very frustrating time with them. The tank is a 25 Gallon planted. Just the two of them, 2 mystery snails, 2 otos, a couple ghost shrimp, 6 cardinal tetras, and 4 hatchets.


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## Raylans_girl (Aug 11, 2011)

I would rearrange the decor in the tank and see if that helps, sounds like it is just territorial issues. I have 3 in my 20 long and they chase eachother once in a while but I've never seen them lip lock.


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## halffrozen (Sep 24, 2011)

They DIDN'T allow you to take a group!? They do best in a group's...

Tank size is ok for them... I would say atleast a max of 4 with 1 male and 3 females, you MAY be able to have more.. but you will push the pair to most likely eat the fry as soon as they are laid.

In your situation, I would think maybe you are just seeing them fight over territory.. how is the tank decorated??? Is there hiding spots, or is it wide open? I would also say next water change, do a full re-scape of your existing setup to dissolve the current tension in the tank for territory.

I have a 40 gallon breeder with one pair and 1 oto, and about 30-40 fry... Fry are still here because, from what I think is because there are no predators, and the parents feel safe.


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## mwomack (Oct 4, 2011)

lfs won't let u take a group to see who pairs up and then return the oddballs. so if i take a group i have to keep them all. we just did a 30% wc and relandscaped the other day. tank is moderately planted, with plenty of hiding spots


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## halffrozen (Sep 24, 2011)

Ahh.. mine i got at Petsmart.. lol


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## mwomack (Oct 4, 2011)

Haha we get all our fish at petsmart besides our rams. our local petsmart is amazing. and they treat us well (they took a yellow lab back a month later when it was getting bullied). we seen rams there the last time, but i had a pair at the time :*( My male died. Went to petsmart to get a new one, and they were sold out


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## Raylans_girl (Aug 11, 2011)

Sorry but I have to disagree with 4 bolivians in a tank with that footprint. It is the same as a 20 high but taller. I would say any more than 2 is pushing it in a tank that size. I have my bolivians in a 20 long which is the same footprint as a 29 gallon and I feel 3 is pushing it.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

four could work out with enough decor, but even then theres a pretty high chance that fights will break out often.


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## Z90a (Sep 25, 2011)

I have 2 in a 20 tall and there already constantly fighting for territory. So any more would be really pushing it dude. I just got a 30 long that I'm dirting and moving them into. I'll end up getting one more female for the male. But having 4 in the tank would be pushing it. 
It also depends on the individual fish. Some are supper relaxed others not so much.


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## halffrozen (Sep 24, 2011)

True that @ dependent on the fish!

I have seen BR tanks with quite a few in them with not much area...


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## star rider (Mar 20, 2006)

they are SA Cichlids and that being the case..typically not considered a true harem spawning species.

that being the case they may develop a pair bond and if they start spawning you may run into territory issues.
best to start with a group.. allow them to pair off.. if the tank foot print is large enough and there is sufficient cover you could leave more than the pair in the tank.. but even so.. you must do your due diligence in the event aggression become s an issue.
yes a male in this case may help the bickering between the 2 females.. but you may have to deal with pair territory issues.
I have done this in the past but the tank was a planted 75 gal with lots of driftwood cover.


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## mwomack (Oct 4, 2011)

Bought a male today (I picked him out so I'm pretty darn sure its a boy). So far so good, the females are still fighting (one is uber aggressive, was attacking me as I was planting) so i think this is the one that will be going bye bye, I have 14 days to choose lol. Or for the male to choose which one he likes better haha


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## halffrozen (Sep 24, 2011)

I would honestly just let him or them choose man... just sell the one he doesn't want or... donate her... to me.


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## Z90a (Sep 25, 2011)

That's weird tho. Most pet marts allow you to trade fish in for In store credit. I know mine does. But mine only get two Bolivian rams at a time. So I never really get much of a choice.


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## mwomack (Oct 4, 2011)

our petsmart has taken fish from us after 1 mos. not for instore credit, but it was getting bullied :/. I isolated the mean one, it was being a terror. and now everyone in the tank is happy, returning her (aka) the devil. also having to return a demosoni  he was beautiful. we added him to our mbuna tank only to find out he is missing an eye (i don't think he was attacked, it does not look injured, just missing, and hes acting okay.) but i don't want him to be bullied.


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## star rider (Mar 20, 2006)

actually if i would prob keep the aggressive female as she may be closer to breeding and may carry better traits


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

I'd keep both and let the male decide; after all, he probably knows better than you do which female would make for a better mate


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## mwomack (Oct 4, 2011)

She was attacking other tank mates as well, and killed a cardinal tetra. She also feasted on my ghost shrimp which didn't bother me a whole lot because I figured they would, but when she did she was crazy aggressive. I suspect as well that she was fed hormones, because she was the smallest and yet displayed more colors than even the male. The two I kept are getting along amazing for now  On another note, our german blue ram tank has ich, AHHHH. Turned the temp up and added Meracyn... hoping they make it through


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Have you got any photos of the tank and Bolivian rams?

My opinion. A 20 gal tank is too small for anything other than a adult pair. Many people like to buy a group of 6 sub-adults and grow them out wait for a pair to form, keep the pair and sell off or give away the others. If breeding is your goal, you are better off removing all the other fish, except for the oto's, and maybe the hatchet fish. You will also need atleast a another 20 gal to grow out the fry (a larger tank would be better).

If it were me. I wouldn't keep a pair of Bolivian rams in a 20 gal. Maybe a breeding pair in a 30"x15" footprint tank. But ideally a group of 6 in atleast a 55gal.

What temp is the Blue ram tank at normally? It should be in the low to mid 80's. For treatmeant, I would turn the temp up to the mid to high 80's and treat with a half dose of methalyn blue. Floow the bottles instructions, excpet with half doses.


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## mwomack (Oct 4, 2011)

Its a 25 gallon high . The rams hang out at the bottom, the cardinals near the top of the plants, and the hatchets up top.

The Blue Ram tank is normally at 82 .... I've bumped it to 86. So far so good, the everyone i still alive at least. I also added meracyn.


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