# New To Cichlids Need Advice



## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

Hi Guys,
I am new to the world of Cichlids (Your World lol) and needs some advice and tips. I had a juwel rekord 120L comunity tank for a few months and wanted to get into cichlids, so i got myself a Juwel Rio 240L about 77gal i think. for filtration a have an internal ehiem 2212 650l/h and a ehiem external 2213 440l/h i have a black background with coral sand, holey rock and cannon rock and a few planstic plants. currently in the tank i have 6 (2m,4f) young yellow labs and 2 id sharks(4 inch each) i have these because i sold the other tank and these would prob outgrow that tank within a year so i kept them. i would lik to keeps some peaceful malawi cichlids that will breed in the tank. i think yellow labs are a good start. also i think i will get yellow tale acei's also demasoni's.

would you reccomand any other fish or a different combination. i am open to any suggestion or advice, i will try to get pic of my setup asap.

Thanks
Supertank


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## kj23502 (Jul 29, 2008)

Lab's & Acei's are a good choice. I'm nervous about Demasoin's b/c of how aggressive they can be. They are smallish cichlids but can be the devil in the wrong circumstances.

You could try some Rusty's http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... php?id=707 .

Cynotilapia Afra. I have the cobue version and my male is very stunning.

Metriaclima Estherea==these are red/orange. Very cool.

If you're going to stick w/mbuna (which is what all the fish you've chosen are) then I'd recommend about 22 fish. Some recommend more than that, some less, but I generally figure about 3.5 gallons per fish to get my number. I don't usually ever go over that either.


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

yea i think i will stick with bunas, are peacocks mbunas, i really am new to all this. i have read that the key with them is to overstock to minimise the aggression. as i am from N.Ireland i have found it difficult to find many malawi cichlids. The main fish shop near me only had yellow labs. so ill have to check around to see if anyone is breeding or any other fish stores have some varities of cichlid. for feeding i have only been giving them flake food once a day as they are in the newly setup tank which is not yet fully cycled. Advice by LFS that this would be ok to introduce the labs into the tank without cycling completly. i also have froozen bloodworm and brine shrimp. Could i use these only a week??? and do you feed 3 times a day or wat???


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## kj23502 (Jul 29, 2008)

Lake Malawi has 3 main cichlid groups in the Lake Haps, peacocks, & mbuna.

Haps get large and they are carnivorous. Generally require huge tanks.

Peacocks-more peaceful. only males are really colorful

Mbuna-some species have colorful males and females whereas others have drab females-very aggressive compared to community fish-probably the most kept by African Cichlid Lake Malawi keepers

I would NOT feed blood worm as it can cause bloat and kill the fish. It's best to fishless cycle by adding ammonia to an empty tank than to subject the fish to burning and suffocation, imo. A lot of people still do fish in cycling though.

I feed once a day. Let the rocks in your tank grow over with algea and the fish will munch on that. It's doesn't contain much nutrition but it's not bad for them. The reason is if they're always a little hungry and much on algea then they are fighting less. That's why a lot of people say mbuna are best left looking a little hungry.


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

so could i maybe have labs acies and peacocks??? i no this is mbuna and peacocks but thay all seem to be peaceful. is it ok to feed them brime srimp??? can this cause bloat


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## Mobius1230 (Sep 22, 2008)

Yes, Brine shrimp is a good choice.

Mbuna are herbivores. They need a diet with lots of spirunila or some vegie matter. Peacocks are mainly carnivores and slightly herbivores. They can be mixed, but their dietary needs MUST be met.


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

what about the stocking list any suggestion???? bmunas that are peaceful and that will breed also. breeding aint essential but it wud be nice to have offspring in there too..

any tips for a new comer, look out for this........ never do this ...... recommend this ......


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## why_spyder (Mar 2, 2006)

Supertank - what is the dimensions of this tank? The footprint of the tank is more essential than the volume of water - especially for mbuna.

_Lab. caeruleus_ are a good starting mbuna - they work well with pretty much everything.

Depending on the footprint, you may want to stick to dwarf mbuna. I prefer the smaller species of mbuna due to overall size, waste production, and availability.

_Cynotilapia_ species are quite fun to have, and are usually easy to find (especially _C. afra_ Cobwe).

_Pseudotropheus demasoni_ are quite popular. They are colorful but are best kept in larger groups.

_Pseudotropheus saulosi_ are also quite popular and easy to find. Many people favor them because of the colorful males and females.


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

width =121 cm
depth = 41 cm
height = 55 cm

these are the demensions of my tank hope these help...

supertank


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## why_spyder (Mar 2, 2006)

48" X 16" X 21" (W X D X H respectively) approximately. Is this a standard rectangle or bowfront?

A 4' tank is a good tank for most of the smaller mbuna, which is good. :thumb:


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

it is a standadr rectangle tank, so you suggest dwarf mbuna. could you suggest some stocking ideas i have already 6 yellows labs.

supertank


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## kj23502 (Jul 29, 2008)

supertank said:


> what about the stocking list any suggestion???? bmunas that are peaceful and that will breed also. breeding aint essential but it wud be nice to have offspring in there too..
> 
> any tips for a new comer, look out for this........ never do this ...... recommend this ......


Never feed blood worm.

It's generally recommended that you have at least 8x tank turnover when your fish are adults. When they are small and juvies it's alright to have around 5x turnover. Some people have more than 10x. These fish produce a lot of waste and need a filter capable of taking care of it.

A 4 foot tank opens up a lot of fish possibilities for you. IMO, you don't have to stick w/dwarf mbuna. One thing you could do is find out if there are breeders in your area and see what they do have. Then post what you like from them here and we can generally tell you if they will likely work or not. I say likely b/c stocking mbuna is an art. There aren't really any set hard and fast rules about it. Each fish is their own personality and can upset any "proposed rule" that tries to get established. There are a few guildines though. 
*One is try to stay away from species that look alike. There are quite a few cichlids that are blue and black. A male lombardoi and a male c. afra will probably not get along. They are both blue w/black stripes and will each other as a threat to their herem even though they are different species. 
*Another is not to stock more than one fish from the same genus, for example Labidochromis Hongi and Labidochromis Ceareulus (sp) as that increase the potential for hybridization.


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## kj23502 (Jul 29, 2008)

Mobius1230 said:


> Yes, Brine shrimp is a good choice.
> 
> Mbuna are herbivores. They need a diet with lots of spirunila or some vegie matter. Peacocks are mainly carnivores and slightly herbivores. They can be mixed, but their dietary needs MUST be met.


There are quite a large handful of mbuna that are omnivores. There are a few mbuna species that are classified as carnivores...but not a whole lot.

According to this website 74 omnivores and 128 herbivores....and about 30 species are classified as carnivore.


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

yea i hope to have a nice variety of colour of fish in my tank and would lik to have a nice active tank but dont want too aggresive as this will prob lead to deaths. i also would lik to have some fish that may breed in the tank, i will look at my local fish store and see what africain cichlids they offer. i may have to order fish from the UK mainland in order to get the fish i want instead of just settling for the fish that my lfs may have.

thanks for all the advice so far, i have posted on forums before that i have not had many replies and been left woundering.

thanks

supertank.


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## kj23502 (Jul 29, 2008)

You're welcome :thumb:


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## why_spyder (Mar 2, 2006)

The term herbivore is used kinda loosely when dealing with mbuna. All mbuna ingest an omnivorous diet through the living organisms that live within the biocover they feed off of. However, the majority of their diet is the plant material. When plankton is available, most species will take to the open water to feed upon it. So when people say that mbuna are herbivores, it is a lax term - not to be taken to the most scientific definition if you will. Cynotilapia are one genus that well classified as omnivores as they are predominantly plankton feeders (phyto- and zooplankton) - as are Labidochromis (substrate pickers).

I don't think you have to stay with only dwarf mbuna for a 4', I merely suggested them because they will fit fine in a 3' tank as well (before I knew the dimensions of posters tank). A 4' tank will work fine for many (if not most) species of the Metriaclima, Pseudotropheus, Labidochromis, and Cynotilapia.


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## kj23502 (Jul 29, 2008)

why_spyder said:


> The term herbivore is used kinda loosely when dealing with mbuna. All mbuna ingest an omnivorous diet through the living organisms that live within the biocover they feed off of. However, the majority of their diet is the plant material. When plankton is available, most species will take to the open water to feed upon it. So when people say that mbuna are herbivores, it is a lax term - not to be taken to the most scientific definition if you will. Cynotilapia are one genus that well classified as omnivores as they are predominantly plankton feeders (phyto- and zooplankton) - as are Labidochromis (substrate pickers).


I found it kinda funny that some cynotilapia species are actually classified as carnivores and others are ominvores. It's crazy how they split the genus :wink: I was going by the filter method on the profiles page. Filtering Lake Malawi, Mbuna and then choosing each of the 3 options...carnivore, omnivore and herbivore. Even the Labidochromis species are split with Caeruleus "diet consisting of invertebrates such as insect larve and small crustaceans." according to Ad Konings Back to Nature Guide to Malawi Cichlids 2nd edition page 129. That suggets that this species looks for meat and gets plant material along with it. Labidochromis Hongi which "is an herbivore feeding on the algae of the biocover on the rocks." Ad Konings same book as above page 131.

Lol, I'm getting technical, again :roll: I know, I know. But just pointing out that it's good to look at each species someone's interested in as some genus's are made up of species that require different food. That could be important if wanting to mix w/carnivores such as a Victorian tank.

ok...i'll shut up now :thumb:



why_spyder said:


> I don't think you have to stay with only dwarf mbuna for a 4', I merely suggested them because they will fit fine in a 3' tank as well (before I knew the dimensions of posters tank). A 4' tank will work fine for many (if not most) species of the Metriaclima, Pseudotropheus, Labidochromis, and Cynotilapia.


ok, I was just giving my opinion in light of the new info we were presented with :thumb: That's all.


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

so now that were no the demension of my tank does this open up more doors for me, i still would lik peacful or semi aggressive malawis. because i dont want to over do my tank with rock work.

my 6 labs seem to be doing just fine. i have an old tank prob only about 5 - 10 gal. i was thinking this could be used as a hospital tank or a fry tank watever happens first.lol. would i be able to set up this tank as and when i need it, ie if i notice one of my labs is holding i could put coral sand in the base with a few decorations and a heater and take the internal filter from my main tank an run it in there for a while???? i no this is a bit early for thinking about breeding as my cichlids are only about 1 - 2" an prob wont breed yet.. but i just want to lean about it all before it happen so i am prepered and will be able to keep the fry.

do all you guys strip the female after 20 days of holding??? or put her in the tank till she spits then remove her???

sorry for the amount of questions but i want to learn quick.ha

supertank


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## kj23502 (Jul 29, 2008)

yea you can do that. I have a spare sponge filter in my big tank that I hide behind the rock work for that purpose. I pull it out when/if I want to make another tank quick.

I've always left my females in the main tank. I haven't made a hospital tank yet.

The fish I suggested earlier are on the low aggression scale. Keep in mind they will still chase eachother b/c that's what these fish do.


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

so you would not suggest a fry tank, to ensure they dont get eaten in the main tank, have you every bread yellow labs, if so when do they breed??


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## kj23502 (Jul 29, 2008)

I haven't breed yellow labs, but have read about them from other cichlid keepers breeding when get around 1" long. Not always, though. That's pretty small, but there have been a few reports of it :thumb:

I did pull the sponge filter out to make a tank for some crayfish my other half caught :? They went on a fishing trip after a couple days :lol: But, I didn't want the crays to suffer ammonia, nitrite poisoning while they were in my qt tank either. After that I boiled the sponge filter and then it has to start the bacteria recolonization after that.

If you do use it for an illness make sure to sterilize it before it goes back into your tank. Next time I'm going to use a bleach solution b/c it's easier. Bleach water is perfectly fine as long as whatever your bleaching gets thoroughly rinsed afterward :thumb:

:fish: 
Kj


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If you want to limit the rocks (less than half-full tank) then maybe you should lose the mbuna? They are rock-fish after all, LOL. :thumb:

Peacocks like less rocks. But if you want breeding you will not have much color (one male).

I think you might have limited yourself out of any species that fit your criteria:
1-not too many rocks
2-lots of color
3-breeding


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

currently i have rocks in the tank that provide hiding places and im sure in time i will add more, at the start i did not put agg cart on the bottom to evenly distribute the weight of the rock, is this a prob???


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## kj23502 (Jul 29, 2008)

A lot of people do mbuna w/out alot of rock work. I don't agree with it, but it can be done. Those are the tanks that are highly overstocked since there's no where for fish to hide. If there's a ton more fish then the one being persued gets lost in the crowd. You won't have much fry that way b/c it'll probably be really hard to catch the females with all the fish swimming around. Plus, if it's that overstocked then some males may interrupt the breeding of fish.

I'd go ahead and plop some rock in. Even river rock would work, provided you can find a clean source. You don't have to spend a ton on rocks


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

how do i upload a pic that i took using my digital camera????


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

my tank..


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## kj23502 (Jul 29, 2008)

I use photobucket.

Here's something I just wrote up to help another member(different forum too):

ok, do you have one place on your computer where your pics are stored?

When you get to photobucket, click on upload photo's unless it's already there. They recently changed it so at the bottom of the little box where it Upload Images and Video you can select for the pics to automatically upload in the size you choose. I select for mine to be reduced to 640 X 480, which is the large.

Now is where it's important to know exactly where your pics are stored on you computer and how to get there. Hit the choose files button and find your pics. Then select one and hit open. If you want more than one pic use control button and click on however many you want to upload.

After they upload, if you want to post a pic then all you have to do is click the IMG code. When you click it a little box should pop up for just a quick second that says copied. It automatically copies the code for you.

Then you go the page in forum and get to the part where you're posting your message and just hit paste. You don't have to do anything with the brackets on it or mess with the codes at all. You can always preview your post to double check that it works.

Try that and see how it goes. You may have to "play" with it for a little bit. That's what I did, is mess around. I'm still learning new features on it, but I know the basics.


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

ha maybe that didnt work.

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr264/supertank_2008/100_0532.jpg


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

this is my new tank so far. still to build up the right side of the tank with another few rocks.

wats yas think a few pics of fish will follow.


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## kj23502 (Jul 29, 2008)

You need to use the IMG code to upload pics. Then it will put pics on the website for us. It's the last box under the picture. Just click that and it should say copied. Just come over here and paste. You don't need to alter it at all.

Here's looking through the left side of my tank with the hidden sponge filter:









Here's a FTS I took during a water change:










The problem I had with my slate is it wasn't anywhere near big peices for the size of my tank. Hindsight I probably wouldn't have bought them and probably would've picked up more huge chunks from the countryside. That's where my large rock (that's hiding my sponge filter) came from. Plus my tank is 26" tall. That's a lot of height to stack up to...didn't want o have to worry about rock topples w/my tiny slate :roll: I'm moving my fish to a 75 gallon tank and am going to change it up, though.

Those white rocks you have look cool. Limstone?? You need a good deal more of them to create more caves. What the fish do is pick a cave and then guard/protect it. You need more caves than there are fish. :thumb:


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

one of my new cichlids

[/img]http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr264/supertank_2008/100_0535.jpg

a vid of my new tank so far[/url]

http://s490.photobucket.com/albums/rr264/supertank_2008/?action=view&current=100_0533.flv


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## kj23502 (Jul 29, 2008)

Looks like old coral rock in the back right corner?? Good choice. Get some more of that


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)




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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)




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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

ooppps

posted that twice. not too sure wat rock it is i got the tank second have an i clean and used those rock that the guys gave me.

ohh above is one of my yellow labs


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## kj23502 (Jul 29, 2008)

cute lab picture :thumb: Looks nice and yellow. Any more pics of them??

I would venture to guess that the forward rocks are limestone and the back right corner is old coral rocks.

Just to give you a heads up...the rocks will algae over with time. That's why I used slate. The fish will eat off them too.

This is "king" my dominant c. afra cobue eating off the algae. Goes back to what I said about them grazing on it. btw, he looks so blue b/c of my actinic lights. He's right under them.


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

that lab is the only one out of the 6 that does not have the black line on the back fin, does this mean i have have 5m 1 f or maybe the black marking has not came yet


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

http://s490.photobucket.com/albums/...0_0533.flv
this is a vid of my tank and fish


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)




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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

i dont no how to upload the vid, its on my photobucket account.


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)




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## kj23502 (Jul 29, 2008)

For the video click on the img link to copy it and then paste it over here. Don't edit the link at all. That should work. Just keep playing around with it and trying b/c that's the way to figure it out :thumb:

That's a good clear picture


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)




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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)




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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

[/URL][/img]


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

wow hoo it worked, sorry about the sound i had the telly on beside me


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## kj23502 (Jul 29, 2008)

ok, I don't think it's an img code for videos now...sorry. It doesn't play for me. Only comes up as a picture. I've only ever post a couple videos and that's it.I'll go look at my posts and see how it's coded. :thumb:


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## kj23502 (Jul 29, 2008)

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg200/kj23502/cichlid%20tank/th_100_4450.jpg

It should look like this if you copy the img code. Except the last 2 img and url closing links will be at the very end. I separated them so you could see what the code itself looks like. But at the end there would be a url with a / in front of it...does my rambling help at all??


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)




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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

aw i give up in time when the tank is finished i will post in youtube an lat you guys no.ha. do you vent your fish to see the sex, as i said 5 out of my 6 seem to have black on there top fins, do all labs have this or only males???


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## kj23502 (Jul 29, 2008)

Black on the fins isn't an indication of sex. It doesn't matter as much yellow labs. They are the most peaceful of mbuna.

I've never vented my fish. Haven't needed to yet. All of them were juvies and then as they colored up I gave/sold the ones I didn't want to keep. I need to learn to vent though. Want to try to get 4 or 5 female crabro for my lone male. He was just displaying to a female cynotilapia afra "cobue"...not good. I don't want any hybrids in my tank.


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

no ya dont want any cross breading in the tank, i jus tank to have good mix of sexs of the labs so i will get fry eventually, o think i will prob have to get more rock or hiding places. when does the weight of the rock become a factor. i have no egg cart under the rock to distribute the weigh, so they are just on the glass bottom of the tank. is that OK. think i may replicate the rocks i have on the right side of the tank on the laft side too, so i will have 2 nice clusters of rock with lots of hoding spots. im just afraid of it being too heavy. is there any light weight alternatives other than flower pots i dount think they would look natural. have you any tank pics so i can get an idea of your layout


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## kj23502 (Jul 29, 2008)

supertank said:


> o think i will prob have to get more rock or hiding places. when does the weight of the rock become a factor. i have no egg cart under the rock to distribute the weigh, so they are just on the glass bottom of the tank. is that OK. think i may replicate the rocks i have on the right side of the tank on the laft side too, so i will have 2 nice clusters of rock with lots of hoding spots. im just afraid of it being too heavy. is there any light weight alternatives other than flower pots i dount think they would look natural.


It depends on if your glass is tempered or not. I don't know much about overseas makers. Chances are if it's an All Glass or a similar popular US brand, then it's tempered and can take the weight like the previous member was writing about. And tempered glass can have a man standing w/one leg on the glass and it'll be just fine. If you're not sure, it wouldn't hurt to get some egg crate. Better safe than sorry. The only alternative would be the lfs fake rocks that cost an arm and a leg.



supertank said:


> have you any tank pics so i can get an idea of your layout


Yep the pics of my tank are on the bottom of page 2 in this topic :good:


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

i seen your pic there, y is the water level so low i assume u were doig a water change


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## Mobius1230 (Sep 22, 2008)

kj23502 said:


> There are quite a large handful of mbuna that are omnivores. There are a few mbuna species that are classified as carnivores...but not a whole lot.
> 
> According to this website 74 omnivores and 128 herbivores....and about 30 species are classified as carnivore.


The reason I say this is because most of the common mbuna are herbivores. Yes, I did forget to mention that most of the Metriaclima, Melanochromis, Labidochromis, Cynotilapia, and a few others.


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## kj23502 (Jul 29, 2008)

kj23502 said:


> Here's a FTS I took during a water change:


 :thumb: I wrote that in between pictures. You can see the python water changing system thing hanging inside it too.


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

does that eliminate the need to manually take the water out an replace it???

i have seen differnet breeding caves for cichlids and they all seem to have the same principle, cound i maybe get a lenth of pvc piping black for example an run it verticaly up the back corner of the tank with a few hole in it so the fish can access it. i could use plants to discuise it. or would it be best to have say 5 sections in the pipe with 5 holes, lik 5 seperate rooms.lol..

any opinions???? i could fill the bottom with some gravel to weight it down.


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## kj23502 (Jul 29, 2008)

When I do a water change I usually syphon the water and run the other end out the front door to give the lawn a drink. Then I hook it up to the sink and fill the tank with the python. I add dechlorinator a few times during the time the waters going in.

I would just put more rock in your tank. The PVC vertically won't work. My guess is that one fish would take over the strip of it and you'd have others w/out "homes".


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The females might use the higher "rooms" to hide, but the males are still going to fight over a section of the substrate. Part of the idea of rockwork is to break up the sight line of the males so they have boundaries to defend and maybe also can't always see each other.


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## supertank (Nov 13, 2008)

hey guys, i have contacted a local fish store an the only africians that they have other than yellow labs (Which i already hav) are blue dolphin mooris. whats the verdict on these?? i am goin to another fish store which i no have more africians but they dont have a larger number of each species, lik they may only have 3 demonsis but i kinda wanted 10.lol.

any of you guy buying fish online, i would need a shop based in uk tho, as im in N.Ireland mainland uk may not every deliver across the water..awwww.


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