# P demasoni and bloat



## blp (Jun 15, 2009)

Hello

Im new to cichlids and this forum. I have a 75g that has been setup for 5 months. After cycling the tank, I bought 6 P demasoni (all LFS could get at the time) which have done very well until recently. 3-4 weeks later I added 6 yellow labs. All fish did very well together, I had zero aggression problems etc. and I was quite happy with them. Just as I was getting ready to add more fish 2 weeks ago I had a dem bloat. It was classic malawi bloat from what I read on this and other cichlid sites. In a week I have lost 5 of my 6 dems to the same thing. All yellows are fine-eating etc normally. I did not attempt treatment for a variety of reasons; maybe I should have set up a hospital tank...

I have been religious about water changes, testing etc, have fed a mixture of Omega-one veggie flake/pellet (33% protein) and to my knowledge there were no issues with water or food quality.

Now for my novice questions: 
Other people see this P demasoni-specific sensitivity to bloat in a mixed tank, or is this just my experience? Any thoughts on things I should have done differently? What else could set this off? Should I have treated immediately with metronidazole?

I may give up on demasoni, but not on cichlids in general. I will wait a week or so to make sure my yellows are all OK, then probably add new fish....Other suggestions for some species that I may have better luck with next time?

Thanks for your thoughts etc.


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

Have you noticed escalating aggression as they have grown and matured?
Can you tell us specific water changing sizes and frequencies?
What are your water parameters?
How much food do you give them at one time and how often do you feed?

I personally believe bloat can be a food issue, either too much or wrong food for the given species.
But in my experience the stress from aggression by other tank mates is the #1 cause.
The fish you are dealing with is a terror in terms of interspecies aggression.

If you suspect bloat you must treat and act fast since it is a fast acting illness.
The longer you wait the less of a chance the fish will survive.
Placing affected fishes in a hospital tank is critical but you may still have to treat the others in the tank as a preventative.


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## walleye (Aug 20, 2007)

I think it's the numbers game. You should have a lot of demasoni in a tank that size, like 20. I think you have a hit man (demasoni) taking out the rest. If the last one is healthy....he's guilty. Demasoni need to be packed in with a lot of hiding places. You might want to work with less aggressive fish till you get more used to them. Good luck.

I see your in Iowa. Where at? There are a few fish clubs that you should look at. You can get many different fish at good prices. I picked up 13 Demasoni for $30. at a club auction. There are auctions and swaps across the state. Des Moines, Waterloo, Cedar Rapids, Quad Cities, Omaha area.

Steve


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## blp (Jun 15, 2009)

I change 20-25% of the water weekly. I test weekly or bi-weekly and the pH ranges from 8.0-8.3m NO2 runs below 0.5ppm, No3 is 0-20ppm, GH 150-190 ppm and KH 200-250 ppm. I use a dipstick, so I realize this is somewhat of a range and not as precise as dropper bottle testing kits. None of the parameters have ever been borderline since I set the tank up as far as I can tell.

I feed a few pinches (they eat it within 2-3 minutes) once daily, just switched to twice daily of lower amounts to try to even it out a bit.

If it is an aggression issue, I completely missed it. I have one demasoni left, the smallest one of the entire group. THe large brightly colored most aggressive male was the 3rd one to die.

Thanks for your suggestions. I have heard of the group size thing (not enough in this tank), so may be this is the case.

Im in the Ames area Iowa.


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## Dakuan (Apr 16, 2009)

What are you feeding them?


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## walleye (Aug 20, 2007)

blp, I pm'd you a couple links


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## blp (Jun 15, 2009)

It is something I pick up at the local fish store. It is a mix of Omega One Super Veggie flakes/small pellets. The top two ingredients are kelp and spirulina (33% protein). I thought this should be OK.


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## millphoto (Jan 21, 2009)

I'v had the same problem with my demasoni/lab tank. My first group had 12 dems of which I lost 9 due to bloat, second time I tried it with 15 dems and now I'm down to 6. I'm going to end up getting rid of them. Sucks pulling dead fish all the time. I'm sure going to miss their beautiful color!


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## bossfish (Jun 1, 2005)

I had the same problem with demasoni until got a larger group. I've got 20 in a 75 gallon with very little aggression. A group of 6 would do better in a 29 gallon. In my opinion demasoni are similar to tropheus in difficulty and stocking requirements. Once you get the right number in the right sized tank they are very hardy fish.


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## stan13ag (Mar 11, 2009)

I thought it was bloat that was killing my dems, until I had one. started out with 12 in a 55 and the meanest one was left standing. I realized I never saw them swimming with bloat they just puffed up when they died. any of them swimming in the top corners of the tank?


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## blp (Jun 15, 2009)

Bossfish

Is your tank a dem only tank or do you have other species in there as well?

blp


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## blp (Jun 15, 2009)

Stan13ag and all-

Again, the last fish standing is the smallest runt of the bunch. Maybe he is aggressive, but before they started bloating they were very active and he was always the one being chased that I felt sorry for! Guess he gets the last laugh 

Yeah its classic malawi bloat. I see them bloating several hours before they die and yes, they swim at the top of the tank.

This is kind of unusual, but I am a veterinary pathologist and as my fish have died I have had the luxury to fix them in formalin, bring them to the lab where I can examine them histologically (microscopically) to confirm the lesions and the condition/diagnosis. In these fish I have found severe coelomitis (inflammation of the abdominal cavity) among other things. They get bloated, then eventually rupture their gastrointestinal tract which leads to their ultimate demise.

Thanks for you suggestions.

Maybe I'll get brave enough to try a bigger group.

blp


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## walleye (Aug 20, 2007)

Is your water hard? Maybe you should look up African salt recipes. Adding epson salt works like a laxative. Here is the recipe Iâ€™ve used in the past. My water is really hard so I donâ€™t use to much salt.

African Cichlid Salt

2 parts Salt (NaCl, table, Kosher, softner crystals etc) 
1 part Epsom salt (MgSO4) 
0.5 part Instant Ocean (or similar salts for saltwater tanks)

After mixing the salts together, add 1 heaping teaspoonful to 5 gals of water. This will help with hardness or GH.

Steve


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

It's easy to overlook how stress can affect the health of your fish.

Stressed fish are more susceptible to illness than fish that are not stressed. It's as simple as that.

Demasoni aggresion is conspecific, which would explain why your yellow labs are not affected _yet_. This is also the reason why we encourage keeping them in larger groups, to disperse the aggression, which also minimizes the stress level for the fish. The only time I've ever seen health issues with larger groups of demasoni is when the group was extremely male heavy, or their diet or water quality was neglected.

In general, this tank was sorely understocked, which will also add to the stress level.

I'm a bit confused as to why you haven't attempted to treat the tank. Bloat is spread by healthy fish mouthing the feces of infected fish, so you could have fish that are already ill and just not showing symptoms...It can take weeks, even months.

With these fish, it's really all about stocking them properly and maintaining the tank and a healthy diet. It sounds like you got two out of three right!


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## blp (Jun 15, 2009)

The reason I was so understocked was because my LFS cannot get them in regularly and as a result I was just waiting until they could get another group, until they started to die.

Cichladaholic you are suggesting to treat the entire tank, even now? There is probably a good article on this forum already, but with what you treat them now, and at what dose? Shall I treat the tank prior to or as I add more fish? Since my rockwork is limestone (light colored) I would prefer to use something that wont stain if possible.

Walleye-I too have used a similar recipe for mixing my homemade salt/hardness, which I have maintained within the accepted ranges for africans.


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## ABangtson (Apr 25, 2006)

BLP,

I know for a fact that there are reputable breeders in your area that have demasoni currently available. PM me if interested and I can get you in touch with some of them.

Andrew


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I wouldn't add any more fish for a few weeks. As I stated earlier, you can have fish in your tank right now that have bloat and aren't showing symptoms yet, and the stressor of adding new fish at this point might just push them all over the edge.

There are two links for treating bloat below.


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## bossfish (Jun 1, 2005)

blp said:


> Bossfish
> 
> Is your tank a dem only tank or do you have other species in there as well?
> 
> blp


It is not a species only tank. I also have a trio of yellow labs, a very young pair of rusty's, 5 Pundimilla nyeri "Ruti island" and a few misc juvies in the tank with them right now. In the past I've tried to crowd them with other species without much luck. They completely ignore everyone except each other.

I would recomend feeding your remaining fish somthing that contains metronidizole. Jungle makes an anti- parisite pond food that contains metro. Or if you have access to metro powder you can dissolve it in water and soak their food before feeding. Both methods are very effective for stopping a bloat outbreak but will only work if all fish in the tank are eating. About 3 days should do it. I also do this for all new fish I get as a preventative measure.


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## blp (Jun 15, 2009)

I will try it. Seems like there are some conflicting opinions about this but what effect does treating a tank with metronidazole have on the biologic filter ie denitrifying bacteria? In my little brain, it seems that an anti-bacterial agent would knock down or out the good bacteria, but having no experience with this I will defer to those who know more than I. Does it have to do with treatment regimen (ie dose, duration)?

Thanks for your help

blp


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

If the tank is well established, treating it won't hurt anything.

If you are 100% certain ALL the fish are eating, then you could try feeding a food soaked in metronidazole. This is actually more effective against bloat than treating the water column.

Jungle makes medicated antiparasitic pellets. :thumb:


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## blp (Jun 15, 2009)

Cichlidaholic

I guess Im kind of confused as to what folks think (since I don't know that its really proven, scientifically) what microscopic character is causing bloat. Or should I say what organism is associated with classic malawi bloat. You mention a parasiticide by Jungle...does that imply protozoal parasite (Hexamita), or other other of parasite? Dont some people blame an unnamed bacteria...

Seems like if metronidazole works well, that would indicate that it is bacterial, though I think some formulations of Metronidazole are actually labeled for Hexamita and so there must be some efficacy against protozoa.

To further indicate my ignorance and my curiosity I will say that on the very small number of fish that I lost, I could not find a single Hexamita or Spironucleus organism microscopically, but they are loaded with bacterial colonies. I wish I would have cultured their abdomen

blp


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I can't give you the answers.

I can't even tell you that your fish have bloat with any certainty.

In most cases of what truly appears to be bloat (going by symptoms, treatment response, etc.) there is usually a stressor or stressors directly related to the onset of the disease. This makes me believe that it may be an imbalance of the always present bacteria in the gastrointestinal system of the fish...the "bad" bacteria overtakes the "good" bacteria.

I've seen necropsy photos of Tropheus who were diagnosed with bloat by a veterinarian. There were obvious parasites in the gastrointestinal tract.

:roll:

I believe that in the hobby - especially so with cichlids - bloat has become somewhat of an umbrella term to cover many different disorders or diseases. I think that's why sometimes the treatment we recommend works, and sometimes it doesn't. The symptoms fit, but without proper veterinary diagnosis and expensive testing, we aren't going to know for sure.


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