# Cycling with TurboStart 700



## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

Here is the situation...

I started up a cycle with Turbostart and my parameters seem to be a bit weird with the two tanks.

55 gallon

November 22nd - Added ammonia, read about 4 ppm, then added the Turbostart.
November 23rd - No changes in ammonia or nitrates
November 24th - Ammonia drops and nitrates start to appear (5ppm)

144 gallon

November 22nd - Added ammonia, read about 4 ppm, then added the Turbostart.
November 23rd - No changes in ammonia or nitrates
November 24th - Ammonia increases to about 6+ and nitrates start to appear (5ppm)

Here is the question with the 144. I added a couple more filters to the aquarium (my old AC110 and Emp 400) on the 23rd and it seems that my ammonia increased quite a bit but is still getting some nitrate. Should I do a water change and bring it down a bit? What should I do?

Thanks in advance,

-Garrett


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

Here is the situation...

I started up a cycle with Turbostart 700 and my parameters seem to be a bit weird with the two tanks.

55 gallon

November 22nd - Added ammonia, read about 4 ppm, then added the Turbostart.
November 23rd - No changes in ammonia or nitrates
November 24th - Ammonia drops and nitrates start to appear (5ppm)

144 gallon

November 22nd - Added ammonia, read about 4 ppm, then added the Turbostart.
November 23rd - No changes in ammonia or nitrates
November 24th - Ammonia increases to about 6+ and nitrates start to appear (5ppm)

Here is the question with the 144. I added a couple more filters to the aquarium (my old AC110 and Emp 400) on the 23rd and it seems that my ammonia increased quite a bit but is still getting some nitrate. Should I do a water change and bring it down a bit? What should I do?

Thanks in advance,

-Garrett


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

On the 144g did you test before you added the new filtration? Maybe the water had not circulated the ammonia enough but after the filtration and the ammonia mixed throughout you are now getting more accurate readings. Just a guess


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

I had a fluval 404 which produced quite a bit of movement, possibly not enough?

What would be the best option? I'm doing a reading on everything right now as I type this.

-Garrett


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*malawi_luver*
My guess is that your older filters (or your tap water) supplied some organics that are fueling a small heterotrophic bloom and that would explain the ammonia shooting up...

By the by... your tanks are not "cycled".

The bacteria you bought are commonly found eating raw sewage in freshwater, but not the species you have in a properly cycled tank. Your tank will still "cycle" in that the nitrobacter and nitrosomonas species will be replaced with a more natural population of assorted critters with Nitrospiras as the dominant species (Thanks to Dr. Tim for that info).


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

Thanks for the information Number6!

I don't think it's that high anymore... After testing again, here are the results.

55 Gallon:

Ammonia - 1.2
Nitrite - 0.1 - 0.3
Nitrate - 5 ppm

144 Gallon:

Ammonia - 3.7
Nitrite - 0.1 - 0.3
Nitrate - 5 ppm

Where would I be in the "cycling" faze at this point? 
Once the nitrite goes down and the readings start to be 0 - 0 - 20 I'll be okay?
Should I add some more Ammonia to the 55 gallon tonight?

Thanks!

-Garrett


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

55 Gallon:

Ammonia - 1.2
Nitrite - 0.1 - 0.3
Nitrate - 5 ppm

144 Gallon:

Ammonia - 3.7
Nitrite - 0.1 - 0.3
Nitrate - 5 ppm

Where would I be in the "cycling" faze at this point?
Once the nitrite goes down and the readings start to be 0 - 0 - 20 I'll be okay?
Should I add some more Ammonia to the 55 gallon tonight?


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## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

I wouldnt add any more ammonia until ammonia reads 0,
I would then only add enough to get to no more than 2 ppm


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/fishless_cycle.php that should tell you everything you need to know about fishless cycling. I'd say you're still in the earlyish stages, and I wouldnt add any more ammonia until what you have in the tank hits zero.


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## Cartem2 (Oct 4, 2011)

BelieveInBlue said:


> http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/fishless_cycle.php that should tell you everything you need to know about fishless cycling. I'd say you're still in the earlyish stages, and I wouldnt add any more ammonia until what you have in the tank hits zero.


+1 
Read the Fishless Cycle Article

I do not know Turbostart but I do know MOST chemicials don't actually help.


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

Turbostart is sort of a BioSpira alternative that gains much better results from what I've read. I'll wait till my Ammonia hits zero then add more! I'll be testing it again tonight as soon as I get home!

Since I'm seeing Nitrate, I would think I'm in the later stages of the cycle itself. Would I be correct in this assumption?

Thanks again,

Garrett


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Maybe halfway? Usually the ammonia is zero before you get too far along. Then you just have to wait for the nitrite to go to zero. Nitrate starts to be produced fairly early on.


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

I added a bit of Ammonia after everyone told me not to last night and it seems that everything seems to be doing okay. Ammonia in the 55 was up to about 3 last night.

Today

55 gallon:

-Ammonia 1.2 ppm
-Nitrite 0.1 ppm
-Nitrate 5 ppm (was a bit darker than 5 but was closer to 5 than 10)

144 gallon:
- Ammonia 3.2 ppm
- Nitrite 0.3 ppm
- Nitrate 5 ppm (once again a bit darker but was closer to 5)

I'll retest it all again tomorrow and see where we go from there without adding ammonia. Is this looking okay?

-Garrett


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*malawi_luver*
Both tanks are in the process of cycling. Going well by the looks of those readings but still a ways off from beng fish safe.


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

Update,

After getting a second opinion, the Ammonia for the 144 gallon was off the carts... 6.1+ so I did a 30% water change on the 144 gallon as I believe to have put too much ammonia into the aquarium. I also, upped the temperature on both aquariums. The 55 is sitting pretty at 84 and the 144 is sitting at about 80.

Here are the updated figures that I've got from both aquariums.

55 gallon:

Ammonia - 1.2 ppm
Nitrite - 0.8 ppm
Nitrate -10-20 ppm (colors are kind of inbetween I guess)

144 gallon

Ammonia - 1.2 ppm
Nitrite - 0.1 ppm
Nitrate - 5 ppm

Is it weird that my ammonia isn't dropping at all? I don't really get why there are nitrites and nitrates present yet the ammonia still stays stable. It just doesn't make sense to me at all.

Any advice?

Thanks,

Garrett


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Its common for a new tank to have ammonia spikes. .
Your water changes and adding ammonia only complicate that part. You will get some ammonia consumption from the ammonia you added, so you are now seeing nitrates. You are not getting a full conversion yet as you still have a population of the wrong bacteria. Time will cure this. 
Adding ammonia and water changes prolong the cycle...


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

I won't add anymore ammonia until it's 0.

I'll be testing tonight once again to make sure things are still moving along.

-Garrett


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

Until the ammonia hits zero, I'd just sit and wait. No point adding more ammonia, and doing water changes kind of counters the point doesn't it?


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

Update,

You say that now... but my findings are weird to say the least.

55 Gallon:

- Ammonia 1.2 ppm
- Nitirite 0.8 ppm
- Nitrate 20 ppm

144 Gallon:

- Ammonia 3.7 ppm (weird since I got a reading of 1.2 last night. I have 1500 gph of filtration and it seems to have spiked again for some reason.)
- Nitirite - 3.3 ppm (huge gain from last night)
- Nitrate - 50 ppm (once again a huge spike)

Any idea for these spikes without an ammonia drop? I'm going to retest tomorrow once again and let you guys know what's going on. I can't wait for my ammonia to be zero.

-Garrett


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

What kind of test are you using? Test strips or dropper style? I find that the test strips can be incredibly inaccurate. If it's not the test kit, then you should check your tap water. Depending on where you are, there could be nitrates, etc in your tap. Also, are you adding anything to your tank, like ferts?


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

BelieveInBlue said:


> What kind of test are you using? Test strips or dropper style? I find that the test strips can be incredibly inaccurate. If it's not the test kit, then you should check your tap water. Depending on where you are, there could be nitrates, etc in your tap. Also, are you adding anything to your tank, like ferts?


The first thing I thought of was the test kit as well.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

malawi_luver said:


> Any idea for these spikes without an ammonia drop? I'm going to retest tomorrow once again and let you guys know what's going on. I can't wait for my ammonia to be zero.
> 
> -Garrett


Ammonia is being used up. It is not uncommon for a new tank to produce ammonia.... Organics in substrates and tap water are broken down by some species of bacteria into ammonia. 
Your numbers are all on track for the "cycling" product you bought.


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

BelieveInBlue said:


> What kind of test are you using? Test strips or dropper style? I find that the test strips can be incredibly inaccurate. If it's not the test kit, then you should check your tap water. Depending on where you are, there could be nitrates, etc in your tap. Also, are you adding anything to your tank, like ferts?


I never, ever use test strips. I've been into keeping cichlids for over 8 years and I know that those strips are useless. I'm using the Nutrafin (I don't like API as well since it's a "little" bit better than the test strips.) test kits.

No I am not adding ferts. The lady who I purchased this aquarium from had a planted tank. I made sure that I thoroughly rinsed the gravel/fluorite mixture out before I added any water.

I'll once again test tonight and hope for the best. Nitrates and Nitrites are spiking so I'm hopeful that it's almost near the end!

Thanks again for all of the help anyone.

-Garrett


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

Update,

Seems like everything is on the way.

55 gallon:

Ammonia - 0.6 ppm
Nitrite - 3.3 ppm
Nitrate - 50 ppm

144 gallon:

- Ammonia - 3.7 ppm
- Nitirite - 3.3 ppm
- Nitrate - 50 ppm

To be honest, I think the Nitrite and Nitrate are giving off false readings as they're very high. It's honestly so pink it's not even funny. The ammonia dropped on the 55 which I'm very happy about, but the 144 seems to be holding steady. I would assume that the test kits are just flying off the charts for now! Hopefully the 55 gallon will be at 0 ppm for ammonia tomorrow.

Any idea how far I'm along so far?

Thanks again,

-Garrett


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

Honestly, i have no idea anymore. I myself use the API dropper style master test kit, and I find that it works wonders for me, although I've never tried any other brands.


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## DempseyDude (Apr 4, 2005)

Dude, do a 50% water change to decrease the Nitrates and wait one more week then your tank should be cycled.


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

Update:

55 gallon:

Ammonia - 0.1 ppm
Nitrite - 3.3 ppm
Nitrate - 50 ppm

144 gallon:

- Ammonia - 1.2 ppm
- Nitirite - 3.3 ppm
- Nitrate - 50 ppm

I added some seeding material (squished some filters into each of the aquariums) since I have to get some fish on Saturday as that's when the weekly load of fish comes up from Calgary. I added more ammonia to the 55 gallon!

I think it's just the high nitrites giving a false reading of the nitrates.

Tomorrow should be a weird test since I seeded the aquariums! Hopefully they're cycled by the weekend.

-Garrett


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't think you are that close to done. My nitrites spiked higher than that when cycling, and it took a while for them to come back down to zero.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

I agree with djransome... You are not that close to being done. I really would stop adding ammonia if i were you.


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

DJRansome said:


> I don't think you are that close to done. My nitrites spiked higher than that when cycling, and it took a while for them to come back down to zero.


They're off the chart. My test only goes up to 3.3 and it was a bit darker than that.



Number6 said:


> I agree with djransome... You are not that close to being done. I really would stop adding ammonia if i were you.


To which aquarium? Both? Should I be doing partial water changes at this point?

-Garrett


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

Update,

55 gallon:

Ammonia - 0 ppm
Nitrite - 3.3+ ppm
Nitrate - 50 ppm

144 gallon:

- Ammonia - 0 ppm
- Nitirite - 3.3+ ppm
- Nitrate - 50 ppm

Ammonia is now at zero! What should I do now? The nitrites have obviously sky rocketed and now I'm just waiting for them to fall and be over with. I did seed the aquarium like I said with some filter pads from other aquariums.

Should I add more ammonia? Wait a little bit? Do some water changes?

Thanks,

-Garrett


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## DanniGirl (Jan 25, 2007)

Just wait. 
Don't add ammonia, don't do water changes.

Then, in about 3 days- dose a small amount of ammonia. Now it's a waiting game for the nitrite to drop. Be patient, because the nitrite will probably take twice as long to drop. You won't see a slow decline, it will just drop. So, don't bother testing for a while. If you want, you can test the third day or so when you add ammonia. Same goes for nitrate. Don't bother testing it until the nitrite reads zero.

Eventually, you can do small water changes to keep the nitrites lower but for the next few days, just wait.


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## quentin8 (Sep 30, 2011)

*malawi_luver*


> I think it's just the high nitrites giving a false reading of the nitrates


+1


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

U have to dose ammonia, every 2-3 days, otherwise the ammonia eating bacteria will have nothing to eat and will die off. I'd say add 2-3 drops per gallon every other day or every 3rd day. Once the cycling is done, you can start doing a series of water changes to get the nitrates down.

I think I linked this already, but this article has everything you need to know... http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/fishless_cycle.php


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

BelieveInBlue said:


> U have to dose ammonia, every 2-3 days, otherwise the ammonia eating bacteria will have nothing to eat and will die off..php[/url]


They really dont die off... Even if there starts to be some die off, the dead bacteria can often fuel some of the living... It takes far longer for a running filter to " starve" than i see people on this site claim.


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

Inside of that same article there's something in there that says if my fish are "on the way" then I could probably do a few partial water changes to get the nitrite down to about 0 and put the fish in, not feed them and let the cycle do it's thing.

The fish are a 3 hour drive from where I am and the person he would have bring them up is coming up on Saturday. He comes once every month. I don't mind making the drive myself but it's kind of an inconvenience.

Any ideas on what I should do?

-Garrett


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## DanniGirl (Jan 25, 2007)

Wait until he comes back in another month.

Have you read this thread?


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

I'm going to wait on the fish for now, no need to rush an investment when they are likely to parish without a sufficient living habitat.

I'll take a look at the thread!

Thanks,

-Garrett


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

Should I start performing this type of routine by Saturday?

Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Test for nitrite, perform water change, and then add ammonia.
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Next day; test for nitrite, perform water change.
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Next day; test for nitrite, perform water change, and then add ammonia.
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Next day; test for nitrite, perform water change.
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Next day; test for nitrite, perform water change, and then add ammonia.

or should I do it sooner?

Thanks again!

-Garrett


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## DanniGirl (Jan 25, 2007)

Hi Garrett.

First, good call on the fish. :thumb:

Here's a routine beginning on Saturday.

Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Test for nitrite, perform water change, and then add ammonia.
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Next day; test for nitrite, *NO* water change. 
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Next day; test for nitrite, *NO* water change.
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Next day; test for nitrite, perform water change and then add ammonia.
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Next day; test for nitrite, *NO* water change.

When you add ammonia- do so sparingly. Maybe only half or less of the initial dose so you can keep the nitrite in check, between 3-5 ppm. When you preform a partial water change, don't do more than 25%. I don't know if this was posted earlier but it describes the nitrite process.


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

Sounds great, I really do appreciate the help Dannigirl and everyone else!

I didn't add Ammonia last night but still tested the Nitrite and it was off the chart. Remember my test kit only goes up to 3.3. Tomorrow, I will do exactly what you said.

Here's a question though... If I add only 1/4 of the Ammonia or even half of the dose, doesn't that take away from the getting a full cycle at 5 ppm? I know the bacteria can handle more Ammonia in the beginning but doesn't adding the smaller amount kill off some of the bioload? I know that people in this hobby generally believe that bacteria MUST have Ammonia to survive. I think this is partially true but they can live for quite some time without it. Will slowing down the amount have any effects to the current bioload?'

What if the Nitrite is still off the chart after that 25% water change? Just wait for it to drop after a little while?

Thanks once again,

-Garrett


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## DanniGirl (Jan 25, 2007)

malawi_luver said:


> Here's a question though... If I add only 1/4 of the Ammonia or even half of the dose, doesn't that take away from the getting a full cycle at 5 ppm? I know the bacteria can handle more Ammonia in the beginning but doesn't adding the smaller amount kill off some of the bioload?
> I know that people in this hobby generally believe that bacteria MUST have Ammonia to survive. I think this is partially true but they can live for quite some time without it. Will slowing down the amount have any effects to the current bioload?'


Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it that much. It might but the effects are miniscule that it's no cause for concern. At the end of the process, dose the initial amount of ammonia and it will bring the bacteria numbers up.



malawi_luver said:


> What if the Nitrite is still off the chart after that 25% water change? Just wait for it to drop after a little while?


Yes, just wait. There's a good chance that it will still be off the charts but again, it's not that big of a deal.

I've done numerous fishless cycles in tanks and it was fine. The best example is the larger tank in my signature. While cycling that tank, it took about a week for the ammonia to read zero. Then the nitrite skyrocketed. A partial dose of ammonia was added maybe every three-four-five days...whenever it was thought about. There wasn't really schedule because all tanks cycle differently. As mentioned before, the bacteria won't starve in such a short amount of time. The nitrites were off the charts at 5 ppm, even after a few partial water changes. So, it was just left alone and by (guessing here) day 10, the nitrites plummeted to zero. Then a full dose of ammonia (same as the initial dose) was added and overnight, the readings were 0 for both ammonia and nitrite. Nitrate was high and a few partial water changes brought it down. Some of the new stock wasn't coming in for another month so the aquarium was fed ammonia. -Performed some water changes to keep the nitrates in check and when the fish came in, they were all added at once. Never had a jump in ammonia and nitrite.

I don't like giving personal examples because it's different for everybody, but I hope that eases some concern.


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

It certainly does ease some concern. The main thing that I was worried about was getting it done "quick". Patience is a virtue and even more so when it comes to cycling. With it being seeded, should it take less time for the nitrite to fall or should I expect it to take quite a bit more time?

Thanks,

-Garrett


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## DanniGirl (Jan 25, 2007)

It just depends. Some of the tanks that were seeded cycled fairly quickly and some took longer.


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

Alright sounds good, I'm not going to do anything to the aquariums right now (add ammonia or even test for nitrites at this points) and tomorrow I'll do the water change and adding ammonia tomorrow.

I'll let you know how it goes!

-Garrett


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

Just finished the 25% water change and adding a small (didn't even measure since it was about 1/4 of what I usually give to both aquariums... They're both testing about 0.8 ppm of nitrite. I will keep testing tomorrow and the days to come to follow the routine.

Is that quite low for nitrite?

-Garrett


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

FANTASTIC NEWS!

Here is the update (x means I didn't test):

55 gallon:

Ammonia - 0 ppm
Nitrite - 1.2 ppm
Nitrate - x

144 gallon:

- Ammonia - 0 ppm
- Nitirite - 0 ppm
- Nitrate - 10 ppm

The 144 seems to be cycled! What's the next step now? Should I do the ammonia water change tomorrow? I'm going to do the change on the 55 gallon, but I don't know what to do with the 144 gallon.

Thanks in advance!

-Garrett


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## DanniGirl (Jan 25, 2007)

That was quick.  
You can do the water change tomorrow and make sure to give the tank a full dose of ammonia now. If the ammonia and nitrites read 0 the following day- you're good to go! 
Since you may be waiting for fish, you can dose the tank with ammonia every few days and perform small water changes to keep the nitrates in check.


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

I seeded the 144 heavily as opposed to the 55 which I just squeezed some bacteria from the floss in. I let the floss sit inside of the 144 with the AC110 flowing onto it.

I've made some arrangements (weather permitting) to pick up the fish on Sunday. It's going to be a pretty big bioload [12 F2 Labidochromis Caeruleus (from the small wild group that Kyle brought over in Calgary in 2004), 10 Fossochromis Rostratus, and 8 Synodontis Petricola. These are all going to be juvi fish and not large by any means. I'm hoping to get a good group of both.

I'll perform the water change tonight and go from there! I add a small amount of ammonia into the 55 gallon and a larger regular dose into the 144 then correct?

Thanks for the help DanniGirl and Number6, I do appreciate it!

-Garrett


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## DanniGirl (Jan 25, 2007)

Nice stock list!



malawi_luver said:


> I'll perform the water change tonight and go from there! I add a small amount of ammonia into the 55 gallon and a larger regular dose into the 144 then correct?


Yes, you got it. :thumb:

(BTW- I know you didn't mention it, but, don't perform a large water change in the 144. Just do small partial ones until the fish arrive.)


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

I'll follow your directions as you previously stated.

Small 25% water changes, then adding the ammonia. My nitrates are low enough that I don't need to do a larger water change for any reason at all on the 144 gallon. The only variable that I'm changing is the amount of ammonia that I put into the 144 gallon which will be a bit more.

Do you think adding this many fish at once will be too much if there it's cycling 5 ppm of Ammonia in 24 hours? It's going to be... 30 juvi fish will be added.

Thanks,

-Garrett


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## DanniGirl (Jan 25, 2007)

No. You'll be fine. :thumb:


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

Sounds good, I'll let you know my findings after tonight when I do the water changes!

-Garrett


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

Just so this thread doesn't completely die, both aquarium are cycled and the 144 has fish inside of it already .

55 will be getting some fish tomorrow.

-Garrett


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