# suitable way to raise my ph



## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I tried useing the forum search tool ,but it was to broad. :-?

Is limestone a good way to raise my ph and buffer my water? What are some other good rocks that raise ph?

Is the "rock method" of raising ph safe for fish?

Thanks


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Sure it is safe but it is also very slow to dissolve in your water if you have a high water change set up.
It also depends on how far you need to move your tap waters KH and pH.
What are you trying to do? A shelly type tank with low water changes or a Tropheus type tank with large water changes?


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Ok here is what I am working with.
55 gallon, sand substrate, cycled from previous fish that I sold a week ago. Been keeping it cycled with fish food in a sunken glass jar.

Recieving shell dwellers thursday. Neolamp Multi. The owner keeps his tank at a Ph of 7.5.

My ph sits at about 7.4. I want to slowly raise my ph to around 7.7 to 7.8

The reason for this is I am eventually going to introduce some Buescheri and Cyprichromis and I think they would do far better with a more ideal ph.

So what you think?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Crushed coral as part of your filter material would be faster since the water is forced to flow by and dissolve it.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Yes add the limestone. Yes put crushed coral in your filters. Yes add bicarb to your water change water. Either and all kind of works but to get what you want, stable controlled water conditions you kind of need all of em or at least control of the water change water. Limestone will help but it is kind of hard to guess how much. Coral in the filters will help but kind of hard to guess how much. The key is I think the water change water control this and the rest will just be bonuses/safeguards.
I use a KH of 14 for Tang cichlids but they can be happy at lower levels. Effect on pH is a little hard to calculate as it depends on other buffers are in your water but it can not rise your pH to beyond about pH 8.6 and has very little effect other than buffering on water above 8.2.
One teaspoon (about 5-6 grams) of sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) per 50 liters of water will increase KH by about 4 degrees. Slow and steady with any pH or KH rise.

Step one for total control, if you want it, is to find the KH of your tap water.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

So what would you do if you were in my situation?

Wait until after I get the multies or go on and raise the ph some before they get here.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Keep your water as it is, as it more or less matches where they come from, rise it slowly after they arrive.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Alright. After they arrive add limestone, crushed coral to my filter and add the sodium bicarbonate to my water changes?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'd try the limestone and crushed coral first and save the weekly water treatments as a last resort. It's hard to get the pH exactly the same each time, not to mention a pain.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

is it safe to raise ph with limestone and crushed coral while the fish are in the tank?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yes, it's excruciatingly gradual and only happens as the coral/rock dissolves. Also it will only raise your pH a couple decimal points.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

oh, did not realize it was that small of an increase. So with a ph of 7.4 I would maybe be at 7.6 in five months?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't know that it's been measured that way. Try it an see. Keep in mind that if you slack off on water changes, the pH will decline. So 50% weekly and let us know every month.

It also depends on the volume of coral and limestone you add.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I am having an extremely hard time finding limestone. Ordering offline would piss me off for the rest of my life at the price I would have to pay.

Its rock people! I live on this earth too, why cant I have an afordable piece of it!

Seriously, can I find limestone? Does any type of construction require it?

Crushed coral is not that cheap either.....Why is everything in the fish industry so high?


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I get my crushed coral from a company called Eco aggregates very cheap and limestone from Cotswold quarries (Portland limestone is I think what much of old London is built of) or a local builders merchant or landscape garden shop (It may be illegal but there are areas in the UK you can just find it in the countryside for weathered bits :wink: ). It can be a pain to find here too and very over priced at aquatic shops but maybe a Koi carp pond type shop will have some (lining the edge of artificial ponds). Sorry I can be of no real help being in the UK.


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## mx22 (Jul 13, 2009)

I don't think you can buffer the water up enough with just limestone and crushed coral - unless if you need to raise pH by just a few decimal points. To significantly raise the pH i think you will need to go with either one of the buffers available for sale (I'm using Kent Marine Cichlid buffer, Seachem also makes one and maybe some others too) or mix your own buffer (see library section of this forum for a recepie).

P.S. Besides the limestore, you can also use Texas Holey Rock to raise your pH. Ebay and most LFS's have it for sale. But again, don't expect magic and be ready to add buffer...

Cheers!


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## Charlutz (Mar 13, 2006)

At the risk of oversimplifying it ... Buy a big bag of baking soda at price club for 5 bucks. Add a 1/4 cup to your tank water and you will raise your ph and kh to a good hardness. Depends on your original water, but likely to about 8.2 ph and 12-15 kh. Measure to confirm. Add fish. Keep a log during water changes and add measured amounts of baking soda starting with a few tablespoons til you get the balance you want and know what you need to add during water changes. You can add directly to the tank. Doesn't get any easier than that. If you want a better understanding, check the forum library as there are a number of good articles on water chemistry.


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## Rick_Lindsey (Aug 26, 2002)

ahud said:


> I am having an extremely hard time finding limestone. Ordering offline would piss me off for the rest of my life at the price I would have to pay.


I had a hard time finding some when I lived in Buford, GA, too, but eventually I found a landscape place that has it. Just call every landscape/gravel place in the phone book and ask if they have "crushed limestone"... with luck your 6th or 7th call will hit paydirt (paystone?). Once you do find it, it should be quite cheap, since they're used to selling it by the yard or the ton, and all you need is a 5-gallon bucketful 

One caveat -- I've heard that a film of beneficial bacteria can "seal" off limestone, aragonite, etc. so that it stops buffering after awhile, so if you notice that happening to you, try scrubbing down your limestone.

-Rick (the armchair aquarist, who was contemplating using crushed limestone as his biomedia, but decided against)


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I am getting frusterated trying to find limestone. Is there any other rock types that have the same buffer capabilties as limestone?

When I ask for it the people just act like I am stupid. I thought limestone was used a good deal?


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Calcium carbonate: Aragonite, Calcite, Vaterite, Chalk (the rock not blackboard chalk), Limestone, Marble, Travertine, shells, crushed coral all do about the same job. As does Texas holy rock (Ocean rock) and tufa but those two are quite scratchy and rough.
Odd, I thought there was loads of Limestone in lots of places in North America.
You have formations in Orangeburg, Clarendon, Dorchester, Berkeley and Horry Counties, surely there is a little you can find. :wink:


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Every stone yard I visit say they do not have it.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

They don't have marble or travertine? Crushed coral is sold as a substrate, buy a bag and use it for your filter media.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Is garden limestone ok to use? Its pelletized dolomitic limestone.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Let's back up and go over the part where you actually have to dissolve limestone/calcium carbonate for it to do any good.  And then realize how much you are removing with each water change. :x Any intial bump you see from coarse material added to your filter will be short lived. The same goes for using crushed coral as substrate or having holey rock in your tank. For any of these "buffering" substrates dissolved fast enough to be useful, you'd have to add acidic water to start with.

My advice? Skip the limestone and go for baking soda. For your hardness, I recommend Epsom salt.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Triscuit,

To be honest, I am scared to add baking soda and epsom salt. I hope I dont make you mad with my lack of knowledge on the subject. I am new to trying to raise PH. 

I have five multies in the tank, so how do I go about adding baking soda and epson salt? :-?

Do I add it every water change?

How do I know how much to add?

Is it completely safe?

Am I right in thinking that baking soda+epsom salt does the same thing limestone does in a shorter time and you have more control over it?

Thank you
Aaron


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## herny (Nov 30, 2007)

with my tang set up o have lime stone in there and i do a table spoon of baking soda and the how ever much espon is needed dew to the water change size i add the baking soda to the hob filters i have in the media slot areas so it is released in and no clumps can be eating by the fish


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## Tshethar (Jul 20, 2009)

First thing: don't panic. You're not going to kill your fish. :wink: They will acclimate. To me, this is more of a long-term care issue.

The Dolomitic limestone should be fine to use, but only as insurance against a serious pH drop. As others have said, I don't think it will do anything to get your pH above 7.6, so it's usefulness is limited if you're trying to keep it higher. (I vaguely recall there may be a reason it isn't seen as typical aquarium substrate these days, but crushed dolomite used to be sold for african tanks quite a bit back in the early 90s.) If you and your multis can live with it at that level, you may not need to do anything else--seems some folks have success that way.

If you're looking for 8.0 or higher, and since it sounds like you don't mind doing a little water testing, take the advice of the people on here and get your baking soda and epsom salt, and read the library article mentioned above: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/buffer_recipe.php Or, you can buy the Seachem or Kent buffer and salt products, which work great, and follow basically the same process with them and a 5 gallon bucket of your tap water. Once you get a sense for how much difference a teaspoon or whatever really makes in _your _water, you won't feel too worried about shocking your fish with the Arm and Hammer. :thumb:

Have fun and keep studying!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Here is the article about additives to adjust your pH, GH and KH.http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/buffer_recipe.php


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

No worries! :thumb: This comes down to chemistry which makes many people shudder. :wink:

As with any change, slow is better. The good thing to remember is that over or under dosing with soda and salt won't cause trouble. These ingredients are safe in quantities much larger than what you'll be using.

For my tanks, I add roughly 1 tablespoon of each baking powder and epsom salt per 20 gallon water change to maintain my hardness and buffering levels. I dissolve the stuff in a cup with hot water and give it a stir and dump it in. Don't worry if the salt isn't completely dissolved- it won't hurt your fish.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

ok.

I am still confused. Do I do this why my fish are in the tank? Or should I move them out to a bucket with alot of tank water and then add the salt, and soda. Then just drip acclimate them?

I am very attatched to my five juvinile multies so I wana play it safe as I can.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You would not do it all at once, just let it creep up decimal point by decimal point.

So let's say your water is pH=7.5 now and you'd like it to go up .2 with each weekly water change.

If you change your water 50% weekly, They experiment with 1 gallon of water in a bucket. How many teaspoons of baking soda to make it go up 0.2? Now you have the per gallon amount.

You want to double it because you want to impact 100% of the water and you are changing only 50%.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Ok,

Makes sense now. The fish would be able to acclimate to a 0.2 change per week?

For multies how high would you raise it? I was thinking 7.8 would be as high as I would want to go. I know nothing about Kh and Gh. What levels should I be shooting for to buffer my ph at 7.8?

I purchased a API GH and KH kit online and its being shipped.

Thanks everyone for all the help.

Aaron


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

pH is a proxy measurement... meaning it's the easiest way to guess what else is going on. With poorly buffered water, you are likely to jump right up to 8.2 with little change in the chemical composition of your water. I know it's not easy to understand, but your fish really don't care about pH. They care about what else is in the water that we can't get a $5 home test kit for.

Think of small changes to what you add. You are not adding anything right now, and you want to start adding soda and salt. Add it right in your tank. Your fish won't notice a tablespoon of each in 55 gallons. With what I'm recommending, you are adding only sodium, potassium, bicarbonate and sulfate, none of which are remotely toxic to fish and all are common in high concentrations in natural water.

Add a tablespoon of each dissolved to your full tank. Wait 12 hours and test pH. Testing sooner will not give you an accurate pH.

After a couple days, add another tablespoon of each. Wait 12 hours and test pH.

You will want to stop when you get to pH 8.2. Don't worry- you can't overshoot, nor can you maintain a lower stable pH by buffering with baking soda. Baking soda will make your water pH 8.2- and hold it there.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Thank you triscuit.

Would you wait to add epson and bsoda until I get my KH and Gh test?


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

I think GH and KH tests are a good idea to directly measure the cause/effect between buffering and your additions, but pH is an appropriate proxy measurement for now. Your buffering is not what you want it to be as long as your pH is not 8.2 So, order your kits, but go ahead and start making the change.

For other instances where a hobbyist didn't document a wide pH swing, I'd recommend waiting for the test kit. Many waters are well buffered in the pH 7-8 zone and are perfectly fine with no additions. But in this case, we know that the water is not well buffered precisely because the hobbyist measured pH.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

This is pretty embaressing.... 

I used a syringe to put water into my test tubes. I forgot I had used it to put frozen food into the tank. It totally changed the outcome of the test. I did a trial today where I used the syringe right after putting in food and the reading said 8.4ph. I took another sample straight from the tank and the ph read 7.4

Cant believe I dident think of that earlier. I already added a table spoon of baking soda and epsom. Should I continue this treatment until my test kit arrives or wait until it arrives and then continue?

Also do I had epsom salt and baking soda to the water change water or just add baking soda?


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Wait a week, and then if you get your test kit, great. If not, go ahead and add another tablespoon of both soda and salt. For long term maintenance, you would add both soda and salt since both are removed with water changes.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

How do I figure out how much to add per water change?

Thank you. You have been a huge help. I actually like not having a ton of rock work. The tank is so easy to clean.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

Why are you adding epsum salts without knowing what your G.H is ? Why would you want to raise the G.H anyway ? I would just add baking soda to raise the k.h, which in turn will raise the P.H 
I have a low G.H reading in my tanks but I'm not concerned about it. In my opinion, K.H is the only one that matters.


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## Charlutz (Mar 13, 2006)

God, this thread is frustrating. If you are so concerned about adding baking soda, buy a container of Tanganyikan buffer at your pet store and use that. If you are not willing to buy a test kit or read the forum articles on water chemistry, it's a little selfish to keep asking for advice. I'm not being as harsh as that sounds.  It's really not all that difficult. Do the reading; test your water and add the baking soda and you'll see that it's fine. You've already gotten the advice you need, just follow it. =D>

Also, do not shoot for raising the ph .2 per week. Ph is a logarithmic scale. Meaning 7.0 is ten times as alkaline as 6.0. And 8.0 is ten times as alkaline as 7.0, or 100 times as alkaline as 6.0. (Yes, after lecturing you about not complicating it, I just threw that calculation at you!) See, I'm not beyond being a little dumb.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

Kill me now. :lol:


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

First of all my test kit was in transit as I stated in my post. Second the reason I kept asking so many questions was that I was blind to my water parameters due to the lack of a test kit. Third the main concern at first was my PH spike which indicates dangerously low buffer or KH/GH.

The most recent questions were directed to triscuit since he was the one "talking me through" my water problems. I did not think the general information on water chemistry would apply to me at the moment because I did not have a GH/KH test kit(it came today). Lastly I was following triscuits advice so I wanted to make sure I understood fully what he wanted me to do. I dont know about you ,but I dont like killing my fish. Noddy your opinion and triscuits must not be the same because he said add epsom.

:thumb: Wish this stuck up a different finger.


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## Charlutz (Mar 13, 2006)

Good one. =D> :lol:

41 posts to hear over and over again to add baking soda and test your water. It's a little frustrating, especially when there are several articles in the forum library that cover the same topic. When I posted I didn't realize you were new to the forum. Not a nice intro by me to what is a very good forum.  I apologize. And welcome. 8)


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

killed me with kindness, 

I apologize and I understand where you are coming from. I guess I feel more comfortable getting information directed specifically to me than reading other scenerios.

You are right, I got the information I need so quit "beating a dead horse"


Sorry about that finger! :wink:


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

"Noddy your opinion and triscuits must not be the same because he said add epsom".

:lol: Is this a spelling mistake issue? 
I was only trying to help. :thumb:


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I kinda went into rant mode like a immature kid. Sorry Noddy, I know you was


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