# an introduction and a challenge



## Mr.Firemouth

Hello everyone. I am Mr.Firemouth. I have posted on many boards and some of you may have seen my name/posts before. I have been keeping fish both FW and SW for 25+ years and am desperately seeking an albino Thorichthys meeki. I am not interested in the T. Mexiteco variety.

For those of you unfamiliar with me I maintain 1,000g of aquariums in my fishroom. I have specifically bred firemouths my entire hobby career. I say career but obsession is more like it.

I am currently working on my linebreeding program of 6th generation Firemouths. This is the fruit of seven years and I am still working on the Ultimate Warrior! The colors of my FM's is really looking great. I was tank 13 at the last ACA show in Chicago, but there was a larger redder FM that one the prize!

It has been my goal since 2000 to begin breeding an albino firemouth. I have yet to locate a healthy mutation to introduce to my breeding stock. Any information or pictures are greatly appreciated! Just post the pic and info in this thread!

Here are some pics of my last breeders...
























http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k44/m ... th/fm2.jpg
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k44/m ... th/fm1.jpg
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k44/m ... 94aba3.jpg

I learned how to linebreed working with fancy strains of guppies and swordtails. I currently work with swords and have plenty of feeders!LOL
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k44/m ... sword3.jpg

















I am posting here because this looks like an awesome spot to discuss cichlids. I hope someone can find me what I am looking for!


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## Rue

...can't help you...sorry...

...but I had to say...gorgeous fish! Good luck with your quest...it will be interesting to see if anyone has any mutations! :thumb:


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## Jake Jackson

Rue said:


> ...can't help you...sorry...
> 
> ...but I had to say...gorgeous fish! Good luck with your quest...it will be interesting to see if anyone has any mutations! :thumb:


Pretty much the same thing. Really nice fish.


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## Guest

. 8)


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## misplacedsooner

beautiful fm s do you ever turn loose of any? cant help on the albino.


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## alex250

Hello,

I might have just solved your problem. While browsing through my LFS i pretty shure i saw a group of albino Fm's 5 - 10, then remembered reading your post. I dont know how desprate you are for these Fm's to have them shipped from Australia. Your firemouths look stunning!

Alex


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## Mr.Firemouth

EOF, 
The pic is a poorly colored specimen but is not an albino. The albino would be white and the eyes would be red. The flanking ocelli would be yellow.

Alex250...
If you can provide pics I will pay shipping from Australia. As long as the LFS has the proper shipping experience things should be fine. I just sent 5 adult breeders to Hawai'i from St.Louis,MO.

I am very anxious to see a photograph. T.Mextico albinos are being distributed but not T.Meeki.


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## marge618

Hi! Can't help you with the albinos. I want to compliment you on the great fm photos. Their coloring is splendid. Makes me wish I had some just like that. Too bad St Louis is so far from Balimore as I would love to see them in person! Please keep posting pics. (Got any pics of fry and juviniles?) I'll watch for them.


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## AnnaFish

Wow those are awesome!

Again... I can't help with the albino... but WOW


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## Guest

Mr.Firemouth said:


> EOF,
> The pic is a poorly colored specimen but is not an albino. The albino would be white and the eyes would be red. The flanking ocelli would be yellow.


Mr. Firemouth:

The pic is a googled firemouth picture in which I photoshopped to make it appear to be albino (or what I would think an albino looks like). Shows what you know....

-eof


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## conoholic

i nown MR.firemouth for along time ( arent u on MFK mr firemouth? ) but not personaly but only on computer i now him ad hes the best with firemouth so ya he nows alot about firemouths since he was in them for 25+ years so G-L mr. firemouth on finding an albino!!! and nice pixs!!!!!


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## northof50

I know there a place in england that has them heres there email addy [email protected]


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## misplacedsooner

I havent been here that long, but that was a pretty crappy thing to do and I for one dont appriciate(guess I m not english either) what youve done or said. that is the reason I didnt join some other sites. the man wants our help in working with something he is obviously an expert at and you try to deceive him then question his expertice. my appologies for dealing with that mr. firemouth. we are all here to help each other!!!
mike c.


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## anthonyl

Ok... On to topic. I personally think an albino FM should cost a lot more than $100. Would you agree? :lol:


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## Mr.Firemouth

EOF, 
I am good at enhancing and clarifying a pic w/PS. I am not good at changing colors though.
It would be interesting to see if you could turn the fish white, leave the belly/throat orangish/red and make the black spots yellow. I would love to see how it would turn out.

The bounty is for real. $100 for an albino T.Meeki.

To all the other posts, thanks for the comments/support.


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## Guest

misplacedsooner said:


> I havent been here that long, but that was a pretty crappy thing to do and I for one dont appriciate(guess I m not english either) what youve done or said. that is the reason I didnt join some other sites. the man wants our help in working with something he is obviously an expert at and you try to deceive him then question his expertice. my appologies for dealing with that mr. firemouth. we are all here to help each other!!!
> mike c.


The other post didn't make sense...I was just pointing out that it didn't make any sense...I wasn't really trying to be mean about anything.


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## Guest

Mr.Firemouth said:


> EOF,
> I am good at enhancing and clarifying a pic w/PS. I am not good at changing colors though.
> It would be interesting to see if you could turn the fish white, leave the belly/throat orangish/red and make the black spots yellow. I would love to see how it would turn out.
> 
> The bounty is for real. $100 for an albino T.Meeki.
> 
> To all the other posts, thanks for the comments/support.


I will take a cut at photoshoping one tomorrow night. You might want to get someone else to do it though because blairo1 doesn't think I am very good at photoshop.....


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## Mr.Firemouth

I have seen this site before but have not seen the albinos listed.

http://www.aquascape.co.uk/

These are wholesalers and I am an online vendor via Uberfrags. 
I contacted them and am awaiting emails.


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## FiremouthShogun

Nice to see another FM enthusiast. Welcome aboard.

I have never heard or seen Albinos. I would think out of 1,000s of spawns you would get one from regular Firemouths but I haven't. I probably would've kull'd it if I did though so I hope I didn't just flush $100 down the toilet (A Joke guys !!!!)

Everybody has to lighten up too, I've had a similar reaction to Conoholic's posts the first few times but I'm used to them now.


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## conoholic

FiremouthShogun said:


> Nice to see another FM enthusiast. Welcome aboard.
> 
> I have never heard or seen Albinos.  I would think out of 1,000s of spawns you would get one from regular Firemouths but I haven't. I probably would've kull'd it if I did though so I hope I didn't just flush $100 down the toilet (A Joke guys !!!!)
> 
> Everybody has to lighten up too, I've had a similar reaction to Conoholic's posts the first few times but I'm used to them now.


I've had a similar reaction to Conoholic's posts the first few times but I'm used to them now.[
is that a bad? for me?


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## FiremouthShogun

It wasn't meant to be bad for you. It's just that you write posts differently than most. I think someone mentioned "IM" speak and it's been easier for me to understand but sometimes I still don't get what you right. Bad for me maybe..


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## conoholic

o ok whew lol well im off ta bed NITENITE or goodnite lol tyl


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## blairo1

eof said:


> You got me dude...you are pretty good at the internet. I don't take this that serious...


Then why bother in the first place..........


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## Mr.Firemouth

> I know there a place in england that has them heres there email addy [email protected]


I have yet to hear back from these guys.
Maybe some of you guys across the pond could help out.
A pic would be great because I suspect these to be T.Metixco

LMK, what you guys can do to get these guys to respond.

Thanks Rich :thumb:


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## con-man-dan

ya know this is interesting....i have never heard of albino FMs! in fact....i've not heard of very many albino central americans PERIOD, outside of mixtecos (of which i have 8+1 blue/albino gene) the pink cons and HRP's aren't true albino. and come to think of it...the only albino's i can think of from south america are oscars. wonder why in cichlids at least, this more or less seems restricted to africa??


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## Mr.Firemouth

I believe the gene pool is very diversified rather than bound to a specific reef in the rift lakes.
Therefore albinoism is very difficult to obtain thru natural genetic mutation.
I have bred thousands upon thousands of firemouths and have never seen an albino fry.
I inspect my fry with a magnifying glass to isolate any potential morphs/mutants. 
Fish that color up extremely early(less than 1") will be exceptional adults. EBJD's for example.
The normal fry of a brood containing EBJD's will eliminate the EBJD fry as soon as they can because they are different and threaten the school to predation. It is a survival tactic.
The same is true of FM's.
When cramped for space, I can NOT mix 3 day old fry with new fry. The 3 day old fry are very close to the same size and are from the same batch of eggs just hatched faster, but will kill every one of the new fry as fast as they can. Therefore I have to set up seperate containers if I seperate broods.

It will probably take lab made genetic mutants to create a viable strain of these fish but I will keep trying. In the meantime the colors of my fry are intensifying with each generation. I outcross every 4th generation to avoid genetic defects of the fish. Perhaps I should try a more isolated approach.

here are some pics...


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## Rue

Gorgeous! :thumb:


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## misplacedsooner

still want to know how I could obtain some of your fm mr. firemouth  
mike c.


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## Frameshift

Mr. Firemouth said:


> I outcross every 4th generation to avoid genetic defects of the fish. Perhaps I should try a more isolated approach.


That's what I would do. Focus on isolating the albino gene, then work on crossing the not so robust albino with a homozygous dominant firemouth to get 50/50 offspring carrying the recessive gene. I'm hypothesizing that by outcrossing every 4th generation you're restricting the mutations (which, as you're aware of is what outcrossing is for).

Did you start with generic store stock, or did you start from wild fish, or fish with excellent potential?

Good luck, though I find the normal morphs so much more beautiful.


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## Mr.Firemouth

Here are a couple of more I just took! I can't wait until this fall to see their breeder colors!!!


































I would love to take the male with the most red and cross it with an albino!!!


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## Mr.Firemouth

Frameshift,
I did start with one exceptionally brick red male from store bought and the others were from a breeder auction in Chicago.

I have wilds too but keep them separate. Mine are from Lac Pedida.

Still no albinos huh?

I have until the end of July 07 when at that time I will isolate a Thorichthys albino Mixteco with 4 female T.Meeki and attempt to cross breed species for the albino gene. I need your guys help to keep the lines pure and to avoid this.


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## Frameshift

[qoute=Mr. Firemouth]I have until the end of July 07 when at that time I will isolate a Thorichthys albino Mixteco with 4 female T.Meeki and attempt to cross breed species for the albino gene.[/quote]

Please don't. That's a terrible idea. Why not an oscar, or a convict (yeah, yeah, too evolutionary distant and not really albino, still), at least something that can't be misconstrued as somthing it's not. Just look at the Amp. and Vieja species out right now, and how screwed up their genetics are from crosses similar to this.


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## Mr.Firemouth

Everyone is against this cross, including myself. However, I have searched high and low for just one mutation of an albino and have come with nothing. See if you can find an albino and help me out!


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## roman_back

i may have located one.. i am haveing my LFS owner contact all his peeps.. he said he knows a breeder that has been said to have these.. has also said he charges almost 400 bucks for them as well. but these are in tenn. around the knoxville area... ill get more info here is a pic of my firemouth.. its a bad picture taken wit my cell phone camera. http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa29 ... emouth.jpg


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## gage

$400 BUCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ,u must really want one if your redy to pay that


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## illy-d

Are you doing this for yourself or for re-sale? If your looking to cross in an albino mixteco to create a fish that you are only going to keep in your collection than I don't see a problem with doing this...

If however you are hoping to breed a line of Albino Meeki's for re-sale I would say don't cross in the albino Mixteco...


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## misplacedsooner

your meekis are already so beautiful, maybe just me but I think you should keep looking no matter how long it takes and if there is one out there you will find it rather than do the cross. if I read your post correctly in another forum you stated that if all went well in a few years you would sell them..true? I just dont know about this mr. firemouth, why the timetable?
respectfully, mike c.


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## Mr.Firemouth

Don't misunderstand things, please. I will try to explain further.
The cross is an act of absolute frustration with not only the availability of a fish that I believe exists somewhere out there, but with the hobby as well. I have asked at conventions, meetings, PM's, breeders, authors, ichthyologists, forums, emails every year over and over. I ask do you guys know any Meeki breeders that may have mutated some albinos that I can get ahold of?

I get replys that are positive but never see the fish. Now, I have decided after much consultation with the Editors of Magazines, authors, other breeders, and such do they think a cross to the Mixteco albino is a viable action? 
Answer...YES! They feel the cross is a worthy experiment and if it Yields the fish I want than so be it.

Many of the breeders in the cichlid community have not spent years line breeding live bearers as I have...

















I have bred thousands of colored guppies with many different fin types and for the last 10 years have worked on lyretail/hi-fin swords. When line breeding/inbreeding these fish it is possible to loose the trait you were developing and return the fish to what you originally began with. It still has the genes of the other fish in the line but they become recessive to a point that they can not be brought back in future broods. This is when you have start over and begin again. It is the reason why culling for only EXACTLY what you are looking for matters! One bad cull leads to a brood stock that can begin to work against you and you then find yourself with fish that aren't the color/shape you desired. That makes livebearers challenging and fun, but sometimes can be frustrating. It is also the reason why when hybrids were very popular in the 60's early 70's with livebearers that many of those incredibly colored fish and fin types have been lost today. The history of line breeding and the genetics behind it are very interesting. Look what Dr. Joanne Norton did for the hobby with her articles in FAMA.

So, with that said...
I theorize that it is possible to make this cross and breed back the albino fish generation after generation year after year until the traits of the Mixteco are completely recessive and what your left with is a Meeki(hybrid) that will have the proper body shape/finnage and the albino color traits I desire. To prove my theory, will take years and many subsequent breeding attempts back to Meeki only fish! So the for sale part is years and years away!

Now let's discuss fish today. There are many hybrids that are sold to unknowing customers because to many in the hobby(as a whole) "a fish is a fish". Many new and some veteran aquarist never research what they purchase and impulse buy because that is what they want!
That fish right in front of them! Thus a market for demand emerges. Take jelly bean parrots at PetsMart! These fish look like a cross between a goldfish variant and a cichlid! I am not a fan but they sell!!!!
Take a look at Flowerhorns! How many of you can honestly say that you can walk into a fish store and look at a flowerhorn and say that the fish infront of you is worth $600 because of its color patterns! I have seen flowerhorns in person being sold at $2500 USD because it was a "show fish"! I was like..."these people are crazy!!!" Now look at this...
http://www.flower-horn.de/flowerhorn.html
these are the Flowerhorns
http://www.flower-horn.de/citrinellus_cichlid.html
these are the Midas
http://www.flower-horn.de/amphilophus_trimaculatum.html

Obviously the Midas and the Trimac are both great fish! So why the flowerhorn and why so much money for certain colors? Because people will pay for something new and different and thus there is the new demand for supply! Is it right? In captivity I don't see why not, but if these were being released in the wild ranges of these fish than that would be a tragedy.

So, what then is the problem with hybrids in the captive community?
Answer...It gets us away from the original fish and its unique characteristics/behaviors that it was born with. It's unnatural, manmade, and denies the consumer of witnessing what these fish really are. It destroys geographic morphism and limits availability to the original fish because the LFS stocks what's hot and trendy today!
I get it! I've been around for 25 years with this.

So, why would I sell an albino freak hybrid if 4-5 generations down I am able to "fix " the albino gene in a fish that breeds true in the Meeki form? 
Answer... Because I will make it clear to everyone that any albino "firemouths" I distribute are indeed a cross...UNLESS I ACTUALLY FIND A TRUE ALBINO MEEKI...and that their distribution will be highly limited. You have to understand that unless the fish actually becomes a reality all of this is discussionary at best! Furthermore, any actual fish released for sale would have to be purposely bred for the albino traits, otherwise the fry would be lost to cannibalism due to the fact that they are different. I know this for a fact! If I place fry of 2 different sizes in the first weeks of hatching together they will destroy the weaker smaller brood every time! I have learned over the years to separate each batch of fry until they are closer to 1/4"-1/2" at which time they will cohabitate. So selective breeding will be the only way they continue.

Personally, I want a true meeki albino. After all these years of breeding Meeki I want to create a sustainable strain of true Meeki that breed true albino. That is no easy task. It takes years from today if you gave me 6 albino Meeki right now this second! Even if the cross is a success and the Meeki is dominant over the Mixteco genes/traits...It would still take years of proper culls and selective breeding to make the fish viable.

You have seen my linebred fish everywhere I post...I have sold a total of 11 fish out of close to 3,000 fry. 5 were breeders for $25 a piece and 6 I sold a lady in New Mexico as fry for the cost of shipping. The rest were destroyed. This isn't about money. It's more about achieving the goal of the plan. If I succeed and get the fish I truly desire then I do believe that later...years later, there would be fish for sale. I would be lying if I said otherwise.

Now with this explanation I hope that many of you understand more of where I am coming from and why I am doing this. It is an important personal achievement ot accomplish in my hobby career for me. It's personal.


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## roman_back

so for all the firemouths that u breed... u select the few that u want and "destroy" the remaining??? why not sell them to a LFS or to the public.. why kill that many beautiful fish?? im not mad or goin to call the animal rights on ya but the thing is why kill all those fish u worked hard to produce and i understand u cannot keep them all but give them away or sell them ect.. just my thoughts and opinions.. but i think what ur doing with the meeki species is wonderfull. and keep up the good work..


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## illy-d

Roman_back:

11 out of 3,000 is actually a pretty good ratio, and the culling serves an important purpose in perpetuating the traits you are breeding for... In the wild 1 fry from every spawn is all that will survive to breeding age... A few months back I went on a tour of a Koi hatchery... I learned that from each spawn (close to 700,000 eggs for a large koi) the owner culls all but maybe 1 or 2 of the fish... I'm nor sure about Mr.Firemouth, but a lot of breeders use their culls as feeder fish so the way that I see it there is nothing inhumane about culling - it's actually very close to the natural order of things.


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## roman_back

well thanks for that input.. i am an avid fish lover and especially the cichlid species.. but i dont know a whole lot about the breeding procces and so forth.. its just so interesting on this site to listen to people explain these things to me... i apprecaite u all taking the time to discuss these matters, b/c the more a person knows about his/her pets he can care for them better and thats why i joined this site/forum. u all are exceptional peeps!!


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## bernie comeau

Mr. Firemouth why are you so "****-bent" on producing an albino FM that you are willing to spread a "nasty disease"? Strictly for your own personal use, its more than fine, but very, very irresposible of you to even consider putting hybrids out there. If your gonna cross-breed cichlids then you should keep it to yourself!!!!!
Why do we need another albino strain of fish, anyways? Isn't there enough already? An albino mextico iis a similar enough fish to an FM!
Once you put a hybrid out there it will unboutebly get mixed-up with the real thing. Traits are inherited seperately. Just because the albino trait isn't there doesn't mean the mextico traits are not present and mixed into the FM. Once you mix these two closely related species, it will be difficult to identify, seperate and breed the traits out.
Eventually, some cichlids will become extinct in their natural habitat. Better if we have the real thing when we try to re-introduce these fishes!


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## UcfLumberjack

hybrids are only bad when the fish are sold as something that they are not. if you dont want one then dont buy one. if you dont think that they shold exist then dont make them. if he doesnt sell them as something that they are not, then he is doing nothing wrong. he cant control what other people will do with the fish he sells them.


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## bernie comeau

Ucflumberjack said: " he cant control what other people will do with the fish he sells" ------ BINGO!!!!!
That is why hybrids should not be sold or even given away. Genes of both fishes are certain to get mixed.


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## dogofwar

Isn't the purpose of what he's doing to create a beautiful fish?

When did "exactly as they appear in the wild" and beautiful become synonymous?

Cross the fish and see what comes out. If it's visually appealing, then you've achieved your goal. Just don't sell it as a pure Firemouth.


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## bernie comeau

I don't deny that hybrids can be beuatiful and desireable. I do like FH, although I can't see why they would be more desireable or worth more than midas/RD, quetzals or Trimacs. But Trimacs are undoutebly the casualty of FH. We can't go back in time and change it. Why deliberately contribute to a problem that already exists by crossbreeding Thoichthys species?
Last october, I went to a public auction put on by the local aquarium society. I havn't been a member since '81-'82. Back then I was the only one keeping CA so I was absolutely shocked and excited to see one bag of 4 Trimacs for sale!!!!! Having had a large male Trimac for over 10 years, I was super excited to purchase these fish but when I got home the existence of FH dawned on me. Apon further inspection it became evident that they are indeed hybrids and all 4 pocess some deformities. I have since either culled or gotten rid of them. Not so great when you get something different then what you expect! 
Mixteco and FM are very similar. Could even be the same species, though probably not. If they are same species, then we already have an albino FM and do not need to sell it under 2 different names. Likely they are not the same species, and if so, we still already have an albino Thorichthys. Why contribute to an existing problem just to produce another albino Thorichthys??
To think that by crossing these fish and selling it, that it won't get mixed up is very naive. How are the hybrids to be identified and distinguished? Traits will be inherited independantly of albino genes! Do we really want to do to FM what we have already done to Trimac?


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## Mr.Firemouth

Bernie is absolutely right! I couldn't agree more with what he says.

So some more answers...
1. When you breed dozens of broods a year that winds up equalling thousands of fry. Pet shops may take up to 20 fish but once the 4-5 LFS in the area have the fish then what? Walmart/Petco/Petsmart sell trash FM stock IMO at $3 each so what are mine worth?
At the end of the day it is just not practical to market 100's of 1" fish at a time to people who can't sell them. So I just remove them and destroy them when I need to. It sounds awful but the reality is what it is. There is a lady in town that breeds clown fish(finding Nemo) and every store carries her fish. She has way too many to sell and is at an empass. It happens to everyone who breeds too many fish.

2. Why am I hall bent on the albino. Because no one can find me one for a decade!!!! I have asked and asked. So now I have another plan. I know, I know! I don't like it either but I am out of alternatives. I am not going to destroy the Thorichtys species with this cross. There are far too many out there so the percentages are in their favor. What many of you don't understand is the fish I grew up with. Go back to the oldest picture in books circa 1965 up that are in color and you will see FM's that were larger, more colorful species than anything you see today in stores. That is because fish farms indiscrimately breed with regard to quantity and not quality.
The same holds true to the many lost strains of livebearers that once were. I want a cultivar albino to add to my achievements with these fish.

3. Mixteco and Meeki are related but not the same fish. Body shape and size are different.

4. Please remeber the cross hasn't happened and I am still waiting to see what is available.
Furthermore there are no gaurantees that it will work. So try to be patient with me and lets see what happens.


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## misplacedsooner

so, if worse comes to worse and you have to do this and all goes as you want it to go, in the years to follow what would this fish be called? would you get to dub it a name? as bernie was saying about trimac,quetzel, ect. when the flowerhorn came about who started calling it that? I have a pair of quetzels that are not nearly as colorful as some I see out there and it makes me wonder about mine.
I understand the reality of having to use some of your fry as feeders or whatever, alot of people do this with the convict. I cant understand though with the strain of beautiful fish you have why you dont distribute them to people that would love to have them. *** inquired twice since this post started with no answer as to how I could aquirre some and Im sure Im not the only one who would want some and showcase them. I agree with you that petco and all of the chains dont have the prettiest fish and dont compare to yours but where I live its all I have. the only ca or sa I can get is the dempsey and oscar, I cant even go buy a convict! let alone a firemouth. if you will eventually market the albino strain if all goes well why not the stock you have now or in the future??


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## nomadofthehills

bernie comeau said:


> Eventually, some cichlids will become extinct in their natural habitat. Better if we have the real thing when we try to re-introduce these fishes!


I'll give you 100 dollars (american, not canadian) if when the firemouth goes extinct in the wild, the icthyologist in charge of their reintroduction comes and asks you for your stock.


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## Mr.Firemouth

I have gotten alot of request for the 6th generations, so maybe this August when I start to cull for my top 6 breeders I will let the rest go. Keep in mind shipping is outrageous!


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## rmcder

I've expressed an interest, and I suspect there might be some more folks in and around NYC who are interested also? If so, it seems to me that a group might form and split shipping costs? Anyone interested, please send me a pm. For me personally, I've avoided breeding, but it seems a shame not to get some really beautiful firemouth out into the general population! Certainly everyone benefits from that.


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## Lancerlot

Hmm. This is very interesting. I've been breeding firemouths for at least 2 years now, and closest thing i've seen to an albino was a 1 1/2" fire mouth I pulled from a batch had a white dorsal fine. I though it was neat so i tied to breed him back to my female firemouth. Sadly enough she killed him

It just might have been a deformaty, but it would have been a nice one if I had managed to breed him to something


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## roman_back

*** got one as it is.. but i would take another 1-3.. love this fish and its nature.. makes a great addition to a south and central american tank!!


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## bernie comeau

nomadofthehills said:


> bernie comeau said:
> 
> 
> 
> Eventually, some cichlids will become extinct in their natural habitat. Better if we have the real thing when we try to re-introduce these fishes!
> 
> 
> 
> I'll give you 100 dollars (american, not canadian) if when the firemouth goes extinct in the wild, the icthyologist in charge of their reintroduction comes and asks you for your stock.
Click to expand...

Global warming, deforestation, banna production and other kinds of intensive agriculture in leach prone soil ---- it has already taken a toll. Many cichlids are already extinct. Forieghn species, like Oreochromis speciesare are already well established in much of CA. Look at lake Victoria if you think nothing wrong can happen ( though there are some benefits to forieghn species as well). Many species are lost and much of what we have are a bunch of hybrids to try and re-stock.
FM might be safe. They have a fairly wide range. But a lot is likely to change before the end of the century. 
I'm not trying to make cichlid hybirdization out to be the end of the world. Only thet it is a problem that we should avoid contributing too.


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## bernie comeau

D'ont worry, nomadofthehills, the ichthyologist wont be knocking on my door, so your $100 U.S. is definately safe. But the day may come when the ichthyologist is knocking on Mr. Firemouth's door ---- let's hope he still has some pure T. meeki left!


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## Mr.Firemouth

I will always have T.Meeki stocks that are kept separate! I will breed these fish until they bury me!!!! I am adding 3 breeder tanks off this central system to my 180G just for T.Meeki!


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## conoholic

nice tank room firemouth


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## roman_back

awesome fish room


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## Michael_Destron

Interesting.... I'm devided on the cross breeding front. I don't think its the ultimate evil that a lot of people claim it to be. At the same time it can be disasterous in the hands of ignorant keepers. I personally have done some crossbreeding for purely experimental reasons. Curiosity mostly.

But on the subject of albino Fm's. I haven't seen any, but I will definitely keep my eye out for you.


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## Mr.Firemouth

2,484 views of this post and still NO albino Meeki. I will keep waiting. I am working on a video of the tank with my digital camera...video is limited and my camcorder broke so, we'll see.


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## krib cichlid

I from Washington (UK) and my lfs has just got some firemouths in and i got normals but he also got some white ones but i dont now if the are albino are not i will let you now on sunday and will post pic as well.


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## Mr.Firemouth

I used my point and shoot camera's video option to record my tanks. The image is sub-par but I wanted to show the difference between line-bred coloration and actual F1 firemouths. I hope you guys enjoy.

PS...My Reeftank caused some serious reflecting glares on the glass, sorry but cramped for space with 14 tanks. Remodeling July 7th!
VIDEO


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## edburress

cool video and awesome looking fish!

so if you cross the Thorichthys albino Mixteco and Thorichthys Meeki, get an islotaed albino gene that is apparent in most or all offspring, then breed such fish back into Thorichthys Meeki until all the T. Mixteco gene save for the albino gene aren't visible and you're left with something you could potentially call and Albino T. meeki, how long would that take? 10, 20 generations? at maybe 2 generations per year?

You could never call the resulting fish Albino Thorichthys Meeki since the gene would still never be true, so it seems like you still wouldn't have what you want.

So my question...you said you out cross every 4th generation to prevent mutations, that's good. but isn't that what this entire thread is about, finding a naturally occuring albno mutation? wouldn't it be considerably more acceptable to inbreed one line of T. Meeki without outcrossing then to cross two different species? worse case senario 12 generations down the road you'd have blood parrot looking firemouths, and you could call it quits and such fish would make great feeders for other fish, or maybe you'd get an albino, then you could start with a true T. meeki. You might be creating a really weak line of fish, but at least all the genes would be true.

It seems like Thorichthys meeki isn't a species that will turnout albino mutations.


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## Mr.Firemouth

ED, I fear you are right in your thoughts that the Meeki is not one to become albino. Mainly because of its vast range and genetic diversity in the wild. To mutate an albino 2 fish would need to carry the gene somewhere within their genetic make up. I've asked the pros and they say the odds are greater of winning the lottery and getting hit by lightning while holding the check! For this reason only is why I contemplate stealing the gene from the Mixteco.
Overall, on all the sites that I have run this thread I have had over 5,000+ views and no one has produced a true Meeki albino.

Should I give it up or at least try? I feel I should try. Others have done the same with hybrids. If I could get what I am looking for would it be so bad? I wonder.

To be very clear! The mixteco doesn't even notice the Meeki in the video. They are dither fish. I may as well have an Oscar in there! I don't feel after breeding fish for 25 years of my life that these fish will cross. They have absolutely no interest in each others existence.

I beg the world wide web to help me find One albino Meeki to breed to! It would be sooooo much easier! I believe even if I had a Meeki albino that it would be 5 years until I got what I am dreaming of! I am picky and I know what I am envisioning!


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## rmcder

A white fish with a brilliant red belly and red eyes would certainly be spectacular, and I understand your compulsion to develop one. However, an observable mutation is quite rare, and a specific observable mutation, in a specific species, while you watch, defies description as to its unlikelihood. I think the example given you (above) doesn't begin to approach the statistical improbability of this event.

While you might be able to get a cross that approximates what you want, I can't believe that will satisfy you, since it won't be an albino firemouth. In pursuit of your quest, otoh, you've produced a spectacular line of fish that never fail to elicit the very kind of enthusiam you think the albino would. How much more appreciation could there be, given the rave reviews you're already getting?

Imo, you've already achieved a unique and wildly successful result. If you never get any farther in your quest, you still have accomplished great things! It's wonderful to strive for excellence, but don't let the ultimate goal blind you to the accomplishments of the present!


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## mikmaze

I think he just needs to move to New Jersey, all the years of industry and polution sue seem to be the trick for causing mutations and other things in Humans at least, toms River sure is a hot spot...........


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## Mr.Firemouth

Thanks Rmcdr, that means alot. I will continue to work that color line out for more reflective scales. These fish are very beautiful in person. Like looking at sparkling jewels as the light reflects off their scales.

I've been pushing extra hard on all the boards to see if anyone anywhere has spawned an albino. I have waited for a decade already, maybe the geneticists in Taiwan will see this thread and inject the genes in some Meeki and beat me to it! I also have serious doubts about my mixteco ever crossing with a Meeki. It just might not be meant to be.


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## rmcder

mikmaze said:


> I think he just needs to move to New Jersey, all the years of industry and polution sue seem to be the trick for causing mutations and other things in Humans at least, toms River sure is a hot spot...........


Well sure, if he wanted to produce a firemouth with three eyes or one with horns! :lol:


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## rmcder

Mr.Firemouth said:


> Thanks Rmcdr, that means alot. I will continue to work that color line out for more reflective scales. These fish are very beautiful in person. Like looking at sparkling jewels as the light reflects off their scales.
> 
> I've been pushing extra hard on all the boards to see if anyone anywhere has spawned an albino. I have waited for a decade already, maybe the geneticists in Taiwan will see this thread and inject the genes in some Meeki and beat me to it! I also have serious doubts about my mixteco ever crossing with a Meeki. It just might not be meant to be.


You're welcome. I hate to see you acting so down in the mouth because you can't accomplish something that may be as close to impossible as one is likely to imagine. My limited experience with the albino mixteco was that it was noticeably smaller than the firemouth, and if that is the case generally, I could see where it might be an unlikely pairing (convicts seeming to be the exception to ALL the rules). Anyway, set aside a few of those "sparkling jewels" for me at the end of the summer!


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## Natalie

I really enjoyed your video Mr. FM. Wish we had FMs around here that looked as beautiful as yours! Good luck with your quest.


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## TheFishGuy

A few things.

I am now late for a family reunion due to the page and a half of editing in this thread I had to do and I don't appreciate it.

Please stay on topic as it's a good one in my opinion.

Also, please don't turn this thread into another hybrid debate, there's been plenty of them on this site. Do a search and read those other debates.

One more thing. If $$$ should be discussed then please keep it in a PM.

Thanks very much everyone and keep it friendly!

TFG


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## TheFishGuy

Ok, I've got a theory as to why an albino hasn't cropped up. Fish that care for their fry (ie cichlids in this case) cull their own fry as to not let weak fry into the gene pool. Often times albinos are viewed by parents as weak and a re instantly culled. Take EBJD for example, a female that has EBJD in her brood will kill and eat them.

How do you solve the problem with EBJD? Raise the fry yourself... and seperate the EBJD fry from the comon ones as the commons will help in the culling process. It's natures way.... My theory is it's the same for albinos. Their syblings and parents will kill and eat them first because they're weak, or viewed as weak.

Solve your issue of looking for an albino by starting to raise fry yourself from the egg stage and look desperately for lighter colored wrigglers or small fry before they get "picked off"


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## Mr.Firemouth

I have been stripping fry since 2000. I have yet to find a an albino fry.

I think part of your theory is correct. I have seen this in my own tanks many times. However, I believe there has not been natural albinoism because the gene pool is soooo diversified in CA cichlids. They have not been as isolated as other cichlids. There are vast open waters for them to migrate from range to range in. There is also no way for the researchers to know how long a Meeki population has been established in one area. Therefore they are still a young species as far as genetics is concerned.(In terms of isolation)


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## bernie comeau

This is a picture of a gold form of FM from the Rio de la Pasion, Guatamala. I took this picture out of Aqualog Southamerican Cichlids III, wich is an english version of a German publication. The fish is at least partially xanthic. Not quite an albino, but then most gold forms of aquarium fish are not true albinos. Maybe this strain of FM would be good to start off a breding program to get "gold" FM. If the fish can not be imported directly, maybe it could be obtained from some german aquarists (?).


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## AU Chief

I have a questions for you Mr. Firemouth.

My LFS has a very active, very outgoing FM tht is about 2.5-3" long. It doesn't have much in the way of a red throat, but its got a lot of blue. Is it possible that the red will develop more intensely as the fish grows, or is it possible it just won't be as vibrant as others.

Also, whats the best way, if any, to sex FM without seeing them in their pairs?


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## MacFish

Kinda sounds more like a T. Maculipinnis or T. sp. 'Mixteco Blue'

Possible it is mislabeled. I know when I brought some of my T. Macs to a LFS, they had no idea what they were and were going to call them Firemouth until I wrote down the name for them.


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## PChap

rmcder said:


> mikmaze said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think he just needs to move to New Jersey, all the years of industry and polution sue seem to be the trick for causing mutations and other things in Humans at least, toms River sure is a hot spot...........
> 
> 
> 
> Well sure, if he wanted to produce a firemouth with three eyes or one with horns! :lol:
Click to expand...

I'd buy two of 'em.


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## Mr.Firemouth

Bernie, thanks for the scanned pic! The gold variety makes me wonder if it ever crossed with a T.pasionis?
http://cichlidae.com/article.php?id=148

AU convicts, It is possible your LFS has a Maculpinnis
http://cichlidae.com/gallery/species.php?s=247

Or they just have a typical washed out FM with very little color. If the fish is nearing 3 inches and does not have a deep red throat then it will not color up more as it ages. It will color up at breeding time but those colors are temporary. It is also possible that it is a less colored female.

Sexing the fish is done best by viewing the dorsal fins. I prefer to wait for pairs to be sure. A female FM has a more rounded dorsal fin. The males will be much sharper vertically and pointier.


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## maddyfish

eof said:



> Mr.Firemouth said:
> 
> 
> 
> EOF,
> The pic is a poorly colored specimen but is not an albino. The albino would be white and the eyes would be red. The flanking ocelli would be yellow.
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Firemouth:
> 
> The pic is a googled firemouth picture in which I photoshopped to make it appear to be albino (or what I would think an albino looks like). Shows what you know....
> 
> -eof
Click to expand...

It does show what he knows, and what you do not. You edited the picture to look like an albino. It does not. He recognised that it was not an albino. Since it was a poor photshop job, he was right to say it was a poorly colored speciman. It is.


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## bernie comeau

Yeah, Mr. Firemouth, that's definately a possibility. But every picture I have ever seen of T. pasionis has darker color on the head where as the gold FM has gold color on the head. A T. pasionis has yellow color pretty much where an FM has red, and the gold FM is not lacking any red coloration. I think this picture of the gold FM probably shows its scared colors as there is a human hand right beside the fish, and its scared colors may be darker obscuring gold color on the body.Though I do not Know for sure as it is the only picture of a gold FM I have ever seen.


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## Mr.Firemouth

I agree that pics of fish in the hand take away from an underwater pic. I will ask Juan Artigas if they run into this fish in their expeditions/research or not. That will tell me quickly if it is even available. Much thanks, Rich


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## PrestonThePlayaMan

:?: how old are those Firemouths in those pictures?? :?:


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## Mr.Firemouth

Preston, if you are referring to the small 2" FM's they are less than 7 months old!


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## PrestonThePlayaMan

Mr.Firemouth said:


> Preston, if you are referring to the small 2" FM's they are less than 7 months old!


No im talking about the really big and beautiful ones you have in those pics.


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## Mr.Firemouth

Those were 3 years old and I sold them to a guy in Hawai'i


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## PrestonThePlayaMan

oh thats cool, and how big were they in their first year?


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## Mr.Firemouth

Less than 2" in first year. After that feeding and water quality plays a big part on size.


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## BlackShark11k

Wow, I just found this thread and wish I had earlier.

I've breed and kept cichlids for countless years, and I've seen many xanthic and albino fish that are rarely seen, but I've never, Never, seen anything like an albino Thoricthys Meeki, but I'd certainly like to try to create one. However, seeing as you haven't managed yet in your many years of breeding FireMouths, I find it unlikely that I could manage to spawn an albino.

Albinos in the wild MAY(and i emphasize may) have existed, but probably would be quickly eaten because they can be easily seen or 'culled' by their parents.

Would it be more likely to produce an albino specimen if the water quality and temperature was exactly the same of the areas they came from?

It seems to play part in the albino creations of other fish.

But seeing as what you guys have written and described, it seems as if T.Meeki just does not produce an albino gene without us messing with their DNA.


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## roman_back

here are some photos of my firemouths


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## Mr.Firemouth

Nice looking FM's roman!

I have decided to eliminate the cross with the T.mixteco.
The fish are very different and have no desire to breed with one another.

I have found information that I should not outcross my brood stock every 4 generations if I am after an albino. I should also look for red eyes. The red eyes may lead to an albino mutation.
I am going to give this another 6 years to achieve my goal. It wil take 4 more generations to even gauge if I am any closer to my goal.

Wish me luck with my quest for a "TRUE ALBINO MEEKI"!!!!


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## marge618

rmcder said:


> I've expressed an interest, and I suspect there might be some more folks in and around NYC who are interested also? If so, it seems to me that a group might form and split shipping costs? Anyone interested, please send me a pm. For me personally, I've avoided breeding, but it seems a shame not to get some really beautiful firemouth out into the general population! Certainly everyone benefits from that.


Ditto for Maryland-Washington DC area. I am certainly interested!! Let me know when they are available.


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## roman_back

any luck on this subject????


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## Mr.Firemouth

For now, I am watching new batches of 7th generation fry for red eyes. The red eyes hold the key to getting a bigger percentage of a chance for an albino mutation. Angelfish breeders have all the secrets!


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## roman_back

mr firemouth any updates??


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## billr

*Mr.Firemouth*
hello,im billr from granite city and i'll be setting up a 40-55 gallon tank some time around fathers day (my present from my family).i was interested in a fire mouth tank,but have not seen any as colorfull as yours.if you would be willing iwould gladly buy some of your stock.if not,maybe you could direct me to alfs that carry's some that are not as plain as most you see in the stores.
thanks for taking the time to read this
billr


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## TheFishGuy

I'll allow the previous post, but let's not turn this into a "for sale" thread. Please do any and all dealings via PM.

bill, I know you're new around these parts so I won't feed you to the hounds :lol: Welcome to the C-F if you haven't been welcomed yet! And nice Fathers day gift :thumb: Kind of early though isn't it? Ah, Who cares, it's never too early to get an aquarium :lol:

I've got a Question for you Mr. Firemouth... Why is it that every FM I get is a jerk? :lol: I mean it's rediculous, the darn thing is in an 800 with plenty of space and still he tries picking on everyone! This is only the third FM I've ever had (and I've been keeping cichlids over 20 yrs) and he's just like all the rest.... Does he need a woman?


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## billr

sorry about that,i thought i was sending apm


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## TheFishGuy

Not a problem, it was more for everyone else involved in the thread....


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## rmcder

TheFishGuy said:


> I've got a Question for you Mr. Firemouth... Why is it that every FM I get is a jerk? :lol: I mean it's rediculous, the darn thing is in an 800 with plenty of space and still he tries picking on everyone! This is only the third FM I've ever had (and I've been keeping cichlids over 20 yrs) and he's just like all the rest....


I think the answer is that they ARE jerks! They're kind of like a little dog that just has to bark at every big dog it sees - And with about the same result! :lol:


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## TheFishGuy

I was going to buy four yesterday, but decided that one jerk in the tank was enough... I didn't need 5...


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## Mr.Firemouth

In a 800g aquarium 4-5 Fm's would be a better bet. They would pair off almost immediately if they are of the appropriate age/size.

Fish kept under 3 per tank tend to be dominant as the Alpha Male tries to take over. It takes a larger more aggressive species or a fish that intimidates with size(Oscars) to calm them down.
However, extremely aggressive fish like Salvini will decimate a FM quickly. Their FM Bluff is not formidable enough for the challenge.

I recently put 6 wild FM in an established 300g. They kept together but claimed individual territories to defend for spawning. Once the dominance was established the pair bonds formed and within 2 weeks their was fry. The Jack Dempsey and Jag keep them very busy.

Cichlids as community fish can be tricky as cichlids vary in individual personality fish to fish.


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## TheFishGuy

Mr.Firemouth said:


> Cichlids as community fish can be tricky as cichlids vary in individual personality fish to fish.


Oh, trust me, no one's more aware of that little fact than me! Thanks... I might try and go get some today and see what happens. Only problem is once a fish goes in the 800 it doesn't come out....


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## illy-d

> Only problem is once a fish goes in the 800 it doesn't come out....


Unless it's in the belly of a catfish


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## TheFishGuy

No more cats in the 800....


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## roman_back

how is the quest comming??? i have kept my eyes out for an albino and i have no luck either.


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## Mr.Firemouth

Still the same result. 
After the ACA convention I will work on yet another spawn and see how they do.


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## Toby_H

Does this mean you will not have any at the Convention?...


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## Mr.Firemouth

That is true, I am not taking any fish to the convention. 
I had planned on it, but it seemed I was not going to be able to go. Then at the last minute things changed and now I am going but have no fish to take with.


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## ACC in NC

Mr. Firemouth, are these the real deal???

Link >>>


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