# Primary role of a sump filtration system



## Malawi_Junkie (Nov 26, 2009)

*Do you use your sump primarily for mechanical filtration or bio-filtration*​
Mechanical28.33%Bio-filtration2291.67%


----------



## Malawi_Junkie (Nov 26, 2009)

This has become a topic of interest for me, another member said this - "The part about bio filtration and sumps just does not make sense. It is mandatory for certain but should not be the primary function of any sump. First and foremost design the sump around mechanical filtration. Then with whatever space is left toss in some bio media." 
I disagree with this statement and was wondering what you guys think. Obviously both are very important but which one would you consider to be most beneficial.


----------



## TexasFishGuy (Aug 20, 2010)

I am pretty new to fish keeping, but doesn't the bacteria live on all hard surfaces in a tank...substrate, deco, plants, etc.?

So if you ran no filters and only did water changes (to vacuum stuff out and clean) you should still have enough bacteria to maintain the bio cycle right? As long as you don't do major housekeeping, like scrubbing down your rocks and deco and such...which brings up the question on how much aeration the bacteria needs to thrive.


----------



## fishwolfe (Mar 27, 2005)

mine runs through a small bucket of filter floss for mechanical, then the rest is bio- with bioballs and potscrubbies plus some limestone for buffer.i change the floss and only clean the sump twice a year and i have had no problems or fluctuations in my testing.its on a 180g tank that is crystal clear.all the sumps i researched were setup as huge bio filters.


----------



## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*Malawi_Junkie*

your question/debate doesn't make much sense to me. I've had sumps that had neither biologicial nor mechanical filtration so was my sump without purpose? :wink:

Even if we all agree that there is some sort of list of "purposes" to a sump, are they always hierarchical? and that hierarchy cannot change from one persons setup to the next?

For the majority of my setups, I would say my loose hierarchy is:
1. extra water volume (water quality and stability, oxygenation, etc.)
2. hiding equipment (show tanks do not need heaters and such!)
3. water change capabilities to avoid disrupting the show tank and inhabitants
4. filtration

With item 4, I usually choose one out of three choices for filtration. 
1. mechanical (socks, etc.)
2. bio-filtration- media
3. bio-filtration- live plants or algae

As you can imagine, on the setups I have had with an algae scrubber, media driven bio-filtration was not a high priority. I have also had one setup where bio-filtration on the sump was of the highest importance.

I've also likely built systems that were everything in between. I hope that all helps :thumb:


----------



## Guams (Aug 21, 2009)

If there were an option for both, I would select that.

I have my sump set up in a way that it performs both mechanical and biological filtration with equal importance, as it's the only filtration on the tank.

I believe that the sump should be designed around the needs for the user/tank, and not a "general consensus." That's why they're so useful. If you have plenty of mechanical, but are for some reason lacking good biofiltration, build your sump for bio. If you've got plenty of bio, but need mechanical, build for mechanical. They're customizable, so customize it to YOUR needs and not those of someone else.


----------



## Malawi_Junkie (Nov 26, 2009)

I agree that added water volume and hiding equipment are the two biggest benefits. Sumps are very diverse and allow the user to design their filtration to meet certain needs. I asked this question because the other member said ALL sumps should be primarily mechanical filters and I wanted to know what you guys think.


----------



## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*Malawi_Junkie* The other poster is quite opinionated!  
Should? hmmnnn, well... all food should be for nutrition, but a burger and fries sure tastes great!!!!

:lol:


----------



## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

My primary function is to:

heat the tank, 
keep the water level constant in the main tank
Perform water changes
Mechanical AND bio filtration.

Not to mention the ability to add more volume (110 gallons to my 240, 165 gallons to the 1200, and 50 gallons to the 185)


----------



## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

TheFishGuy said:


> 165 gallons to the 1200


anyone else read that and wonder where they went wrong in life to not be TheFishGuy? 
Sigh...


----------



## Gervahlt (Jun 25, 2009)

Number6 said:


> TheFishGuy said:
> 
> 
> > 165 gallons to the 1200
> ...


LMAO! Not quite the same words that went through my head, but the meaning was definitely a part of what I was thinking!


----------



## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

I don't know about opinionated but I am a perfectionist  Just cause I have been doing it this way for years doesn't mean I have been doing it right all these years, I just learned a few things along the way.

Like most here I have gone thru a few different designs in my maturation with sumped tanks. Some things are "understood" with sumps such as increased volume, by its nature it adds to the volume of the DT. You do not use a sump to add to the water collumn, it is a benefit of using a sump so it is a "given" that a sump benefits the DT with increased water volume to the system. Our 180 FW tank was not doing it for us volumewise so I swapped it for a 210 RR. Adding a sump and the 180 would still have been lacking. I then benefited by getting more water volume with the sump.

Adding equipment to a sump could be a reason for using one but it is a no brainer not to place any equipment out of sight if given the opportunity. Again more of a benefit than a reason to use a sump. Speaking FW now salties are a different game altogether.

A place for refuge for an injured fish or timeout tank could also be a reason for using a sump. My last few endeavours with sumps have been adding planted sections with varying results while at the same time providing a good place to raise shrimp for treats. To me more of a benefit than a reason to sump a DT.

I am sure there are plenty of obvious in your face uses that I might be missing such as adding meds etc but none of those mentioned would be enough for me to sump a tank and put up with tweaking for noise and balance combined with the added expense of pumps and plumbing and cost of operation and real estate.

Never got good use doing WC's with the sump as it runs dry defore I can get enough water out of the system. I am only operating three sumped tanks at this time, a 210, 125 and 65, most of our tanks use cans, sponge filters or HOB's.

For ease of maintenance no other filter can compete with a sumped tank when it comes to mech filtration and this is a good reason one might consider putting up with the extra effort involved setting up a sump. It would be prudent to design your sump for ease of mech filtration maintenance and then toss in some bio media on the path to the pump well.

In my travels with sumps this is where I am at this point after making the same errors many have along the way. If this makes me opinionated then so be it. :thumb:


----------



## paradigmsk8er (Apr 13, 2009)

I agree that Sumps have the capacity for very very good mechanical filtration. But as I stated in my original post one of their greatest assets is the ability to add even more biological capacity (especially wet/dry setups) when compared to other filter types. The amount of room you have and the ability to be flexible with the bio setup (bioballs, foam, sponges, pot scrubbers, etc) allows for a very very large bio setup. My nitrates very rarely peak above 5ppm..usually flat at 0ppm.

That being said, a lot of same reasons apply to a sumps mechanical assets as well: ability to customize setup, add a large, multilayer mechanical setup while still also having a massive bio capacity.

Sumps aren't for everyone, definitely. It is a lot of work, a lot of fine tuning whether you buy a cookie cutter setup or set your own custom one up DIY. But the massive bio filtration, great mechanical filtration, and ability to hide so much and do so much out of the sump is a huge plus for me. I have a 13 watt UV sterilizer, two heaters, and tons of bio/mech filtration in my sump...and no one ever sees it.

That being said..because of the amount of work, unless its 100 gallon plus I won't do a sump. When I start adding more tanks again I'll mix it up


----------



## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

*allows for a very very large bio setup. My nitrates very rarely peak above 5ppm..usually flat at 0ppm. *

Not sure what you are saying there.
Are you drawing some kind of relationship between your bio media and low nitrate levels???


----------



## paradigmsk8er (Apr 13, 2009)

Not necessarily drawing a connection as I think you are interpreting it. The bio capacity allows for efficient processing of the ammonia...instead of having large buildups that turn into bulk nitrates, it is a constant, efficient exchange that my live plants handle a lot of, and the weekly water changes obviously handle the rest.

What I am saying is that a good bio setup in a sump can handle large doses of ammonia, steadily, as well as surges. It would've helped clarify the statements if I included that my ammonia readings stay negligible as well.


----------



## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Gervahlt said:


> Number6 said:
> 
> 
> > TheFishGuy said:
> ...


Well, let's see, you'd have to be a carpenter with TONS of connections to get materials and GLASS. You also would have had to of married my wife, who is by far the coolest chick I know. When we first moved in together she introduced me to this site by saying "Why don't you join a forum, maybe you could help some people and learn a few things yourself."

She had never owned a fish yet I'd come home from work to find lip marks on the glass of the 75 that had my old female oscar in it... LOL

But yes, sumps are great <----- How's that for staying on topic!? :lol:

Seriously though, I worked my rear off to build the tank of my dreams. Now I want to go bigger. Like WAY bigger... 25-30 thousand gallons...


----------



## stormer0719 (Jan 7, 2010)

Gervahlt said:


> Number6 said:
> 
> 
> > TheFishGuy said:
> ...


I dunno, im feeling like 11000 posts......where is his tanks button.....i want to see the $hits!

Is that a freaking picture of him swimming in his tank? lmfao

tottally envious yes


----------



## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Haven't had the time to set up the "tanks" button.

And yes, that's a picture of me in my tank.

If you're going to envy anything... It'd be my wife. I REALLY lucked out...


----------



## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

TFG said:


> 25-30 thousand gallons...


lol... what the **** would you keep in there that you can't already keep now? sharks? dolphins? whales?


----------



## Frazee86 (Aug 1, 2010)

well look on youtube theres a guy with a 53 or 54000gallon tank ha hate to see that sucker spring a leak


----------



## stormer0719 (Jan 7, 2010)

TheFishGuy said:


> Haven't had the time to set up the "tanks" button.
> 
> And yes, that's a picture of me in my tank.
> 
> If you're going to envy anything... It'd be my wife. I REALLY lucked out...


Well i dunno... looking at you, your quite the sexy mofo :drooling: :drooling: :drooling:

:lol: :lol:   i kid. ...

P.S.
*call me* call me


----------



## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

That might be the funniest post I've ever read.... LOL Awesome... I _WILL_ call you....

FYI, the tank is 52,000 gallons and it's "L" shaped. He also has about 100 other tanks one of which is 15K gallons.


----------



## Dauthi (Jan 31, 2004)

I voted for bio, but I really mean both and then some.

I run a sump on my 90 and it is the nuts! The filter sock provides AWESOME mech filtration. My water is stunningly clear. The rest of my sump is left to plant based bio filtration. I've got hornwort and duckweed growing in there. They are lights on 24 hours a day and growing like "weeds"

It's really nice to have the heaters down there too!


----------



## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

Dauthi said:


> I voted for bio, but I really mean both and then some.


I like your approach with the planted section. I have been doing this with my last few designs and have gotten excellent results using **** tail and duck weed. To the point where I am eliminating the bio compartment completely in my next go at it.

Thing is the mess those two varieties caused in my pump chamber. If I let it go just a bit too far it would foul the pumps. I am now trying a low light 18 hr on set up using wysteria, swords that I had around and vals. Not as good in the result dept. but a lot less maintenance.

I did not vote in the poll as I think the title is a little misleading. Mebbe a better title would have been How many are confusing a sump for a wet/ dry. Or even how many sumps here are nitrAte factories. Not meant as an argument starter and those in the know will get what I said... the rest ... mebbe sooner or later will get it. opcorn:


----------



## Ansphire (Nov 16, 2006)

sump is just a great way to hide the equipment... thats all..

Having bioballs in there.. vs two canister filters or a power filter is not really gonna make a huge difference.. ammonia will be broken down the same.. the main advantage is you get to hide the heaters, bio media, carbon (if u use it) and even powerheads if your pump is strong enough. Also having the overflow will skim the surface.

In my case I had my salt setup plumbed to my basement... so now that I have my sump down there its soooo easy to do waterchanges.. plus I can have an unlimited amount of fry tanks!


----------



## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

fox said:


> Mebbe a better title would have been How many are confusing a sump for a wet/ dry. Or even how many sumps here are nitrAte factories.


 :thumb:

I think you might be onto something with that insight... a wet dry is often a sump, but a sump is not always a wet/dry! Now, all wet dry filters, socks, etc. are nitrate factories. Not all sumps are... many can be nitrate reducing setups like the planted sumps that are becoming popular.

When we use terms interchangeably and likely shouldn't, we get ourselves into some confusion!


----------



## iwade4fish (Jan 5, 2009)

Just set up a wet-dry on my 100gallon Malawi. No skimmer yet, so it's paranoia of the tank empty-ing 'til it comes in the mail. Can you explain how it can be a nitrate factory.
I added mine because of water QUALITY. I alot of wild-caught fish and they are quite sensitive to bad water. If you have a large mechanical filter, all those surfaces become bio-active as par for the course. Sumps always give two benefits and a little bit of hassle.


----------



## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

iwade4fish said:


> Can you explain how it can be a nitrate factory.


Nitrate factory is a nickname given to filters that are very efficient at breaking fish wastes down into nitrate instead of helping you out with plenty of mechanical filtration to remove large particles of waste before it breaks down (rots) to ammonia, nitrite, and finally to nitrate.


----------



## iwade4fish (Jan 5, 2009)

Makes sense to me. Keep the [email protected] out of the water, it can't become poison. Doesn't my filter mat above the drip tray perform this?


----------



## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

iwade4fish said:


> Doesn't my filter mat above the drip tray perform this?


Yes, provided you rinse it out often. Even daily isn't too much. Filter Socks are even better... again, changed daily or at least every couple of days. I use 50 micron... :thumb:


----------



## iwade4fish (Jan 5, 2009)

Thanks, No.6! "not a prisoner, I'm a free man..". Sorry, had to type the lyric, love Maiden!!!
My wet-dry is @ 2" off the floor, would a dump-valve be a good thing to install at the bottom of the filter, to let out all the gunk? Reaching the bottom requires alot of disassembly!!


----------



## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*iwade4fish*
I think that's a great idea... wish I'd thought of it! Hmnnn, I may have to rip one of my sumps down to redo it with the dump valve.

Extra points for getting the reference with my username! :thumb:


----------



## peter hardman (Apr 23, 2010)

I would have to agree with Guams reply.
" They're customizable, so customize it to YOUR needs"

I have an 8ft x2x2 community FW tank with a 5ft sump underneath, but the overflow runs into two gutter guards with mechanical filtration before running down into the sump. Sump is set up with more mechanical filtration at the start but changes to 3/4 of bio filtration with sponges, matting, bio balls and two baskets of Eheim's rough glass balls, from there I added a UVC then back to the main tank. 
Here is a YouTube video if you want to view it. 





Now on my Tanganyika tank the filtration is a totally different set up.
So I agree with Guams that sumps are so versatile that you should set them up for YOUR own tank inhabitants needs.

Say you keep a pair of messy Oscars in a 6ft tank, the requirements in a sump would defiantly be different than if you were to keep a pair of dwarf cichlids within the same tank.


----------



## krfhsf (Dec 25, 2008)

Sumps for me all the way. The oxygen and hiding heaters.


----------

