# Very complicated N03 high lvls 911



## FrauleinAsh (Apr 30, 2015)

This is not a new aquarium, but I wasnt sure where else to post this...

I'm going to b as detailed as possible so as not to waste your time suggesting something *** already done.

I have an established 55 gal tank w/9 fish, only 2 are adults, the others are either "teens" or very small.

My nitrates are off the charts, for at least a week now. I've been maniacally researching various cichlid info for the past few wks, esp info on tank health. Our #'s were way off, and after several WC's: 30 the first day, 60 the next, 80 yest & 75 today) & removal/cleaning decor~ with no chems, just hot water & unused toothbrush, soaking in pre-conditioned water for a little while. Gravel has not been removed, but fully siphoned each WC. The filters are new and have carbon in them, if anything I have abt double the amount of filtration I need. The tap water levels of NO2, NO3, ammonia are superb. However, I do NOT have a chlorine test kit and cannot find one for the life of me. The PH is rather low, though. When conditioning the water we only use Stress Coat & Quick Start, leaving it in for 30-45 min, always sure the temp is the same. There should be plenty of oxygen, we have a 6inch airstone and 2 "bubblers" (not sure the term, just airpumps w/tubes inside a dragons mouth, etc). We have a lava stone, a piece of driftwood, plastic plants, 2 cichlid stones, a ceramic hiding rock, and a plastic rock of some sort, made for aquariums, and finally, we ordered cichlid gravel mix of cave rock & sea shells. I'm not sure what else may be relevant but here are the water parameters from our most recent Api master test kit, along with the Api test strips to double check & test for hardness.

NO2- 0
NO3~ 160
PH~ 7.4
Ammonia~ under .25 but above 0
GH~30
KH~ 120

I have many treatments and chems, including a PH adjuster, but I'm hesitant to put anything in there because *** read u shouldnt put anything in it until u have confirmed it to b necessary. We were previously feeding 2x a day but now have only fed them every other day, the following almost exclusively:

Omega One (brand?) Natural Protein formula, super color cichlid pellets:
min crude protein~38%
min crude fat~ 11%
max crude fiber~ 2%

max moisture~ 8.5%
max ash~ 8%
min phosphorus~ (1.5%)
min omega 3~ 1%
min omega 6~ (.5%)
and there doesn't appear to have any vegetables in it.

Occiasionally we give them freeze dried bloodworms. My sig includes the type of fish I have. I'm not sure what else there is to include. All I know is I'm working very hard, reading a lot, trying various things and to no avail. I can't seem to find anything that answers *specifically* abt where to go from here. Do different types of fish have different digestion patterns, maybe creating different waste? Can I b filtering too much healthy bacteria by having a lot of filtration? Maybe algae died and producing bad stuff? How could I evn tell if it was dead? There doesn't appear to b a lot of algae in the tank.

It may b relevant to the issue... but I just lost 2 of my adult fish this month, after noticing some scraping/itching along the rocks and hovering on the floor w/fins pulled tight. There didn't *appear* to b legions or marks on their bodies/fins (we looked very closely) & their bodies couldn't have been sitting in the water for too long before we noticed and scooped him out. The other 2 adults seem to hide a lot, but everyone else looks pretty good, with a nice unity. I do question the "yawning" they do occasionally, and they all seem to be "fluffing up" by extending their fins to max quite a bit... can this maybe b related to the dominant fish recently passing and maybe theyre trying to look as big as possible to intimidate others in an attempt to gain the new dominant?

Anyone?


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Your pH is just fine for the fish you are keeping at 7.4.

I'm surprised your nitrate, NO3, is still high after the water changes you have done. The API test requires following the directions exactly, this includes shaking the reagent bottles for at least 1 minute or so prior to dispensing the drops to shake up the solution.

Have you noticed the nitrate level has dropped since the initial test prior to the water changes?

It does sound as if you are cleaning the gravel enough. Do you notice much debris being pulled from the substrate when you clean it?

Are ALL the decorations you are using in the tank meant for aquarium use? The reason I ask is that sometimes non-aquarium decorations such as ceramics will affect the water chemistry.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Also check the filters. Nitrates are removed by water changes, so if you change 50% of the water you remove 50% of the nitrate. If there is no nitrate (waste) in the tank or the filter...it can only be in the water and you are removing half. But if your test kit only goes to 150 and your nitrates are 400...even if you remove half you are still not low enough to register a test result change.

I'd keep changing water daily.

Test your tap water, the nitrates should be zero.


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## FrauleinAsh (Apr 30, 2015)

Deeda said:


> Your pH is just fine for the fish you are keeping at 7.4.
> 
> I'm surprised your nitrate, NO3, is still high after the water changes you have done. The API test requires following the directions exactly, this includes shaking the reagent bottles for at least 1 minute or so prior to dispensing the drops to shake up the solution.
> 
> ...


I was reading that cichlids prefer ovr 8.0-8.6.0 PH, that's y I questioned using my PH adjusting treatment. :?

Initially the Api test was reading nitrates @ abt 0-20ish ovr & ovr, yet the strips were reading off the charts... so we did research and found that shaking the nitrate bottle #2 is CRUCIAL. So I believe I'm doing it right now. Honestly, it's been so high that I might not have noticed a difference, I just know that after learning how to do the test *right* they have been reading consistently at the max. After an 80% change?? I mean, what on earth am I missing??

Our tap has been tested ovr and ovr, both straight from the faucet and after the 30min treatment b4 putting it in the tank. NO2/NO3/Ammonia+ ZERO.
Maybe chlorine/chlorinate(?) might b the issue? How would I find out?

I had considered improper ornaments and such, but *everything* I've bought for them has been made for fishtanks, with the exception of "terra turtle rocks/pebbles" & a couple of what my bf says are marble rocks. Gravel was made special for cichlids, 1 silk plant, plastic plants, lava rock, driftwood, ceramic rock hiding places (can just a few ceramic decors cause THIS large of an issue?), cichlid stones.. I believe that's all.

Aaargh, the gravel... yes, we just re-homed a giant seamonster pleco that did nothing but defecate incessantly, it was a nightmare trying to clean. But when we got the new fish we had cleaned the gravel several times, touched up the decor/plants and did a few partial WC's. We thought we did a good job but... that was the *first* thing I considered, that this issue probably had a lot to do with the lvls being so far off. But evn still, that doesn't explain why they *stay* high after so many decent sized WC's/siphonings. We see a lot of debris when we siphon it, every time. Maybe less than b4 but there is always a lot of floating garbage when we stir it up but honestly I have no idea how much is just "normal" accumulation. I read a lot abt this... we've siphoned the heck outta it maybe half a doz times after re-homing the pleco. We didn't think we needed to take all the gravel out unnecessarily, the fish have been thru so much, I didn't think they'd like being moved into a bucket, then moved back agn in a time where things are so stressful for the poor lil' guys. Do u think after all those in-tank cleanings that the leftover gravel could b filthy enough to cause this? 
Would I have to take all my fish out to thoroughly clean the gravel?

I wasn't sure I cleaned the decor/plants

What abt too much/not enough bacteria? How could I evn measure this?

No, the levels have not dropped, rlly. This is why I'm bashing my head against the wall, NONE of this makes sense! I think there may have been a few tests in the last wk that read the NO3 being just under 180 but I don't have my fish-book notes by me right now, we are documenting EVERYTHING.

It still hasn't *fully* cycled yet from last night but I got impatient/curious and wanted to see if diluting the old water w/new water would bring it down yet, but still nothing on the strips has changed. I'm gonna test w/the master kit now and agn later after it has cycled for 24 hrs.

Does this help? I've been covering the tank with a blanket to keep the light out for them to lessen their discomfort. We only feed a little bit every other day right now so as to prevent more waste.

This is INSANE.


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## FrauleinAsh (Apr 30, 2015)

DJRansome said:


> Also check the filters. Nitrates are removed by water changes, so if you change 50% of the water you remove 50% of the nitrate. If there is no nitrate (waste) in the tank or the filter...it can only be in the water and you are removing half. But if your test kit only goes to 150 and your nitrates are 400...even if you remove half you are still not low enough to register a test result change.
> 
> I'd keep changing water daily.
> 
> Test your tap water, the nitrates should be zero.


Well, our filter cartridges are new. Maybe we didn't clean all the nooks and cranny's out of the actual filter? Can that happen?

Can nitrates seriously go as high as 400?? How would my fish evn be *alive* if that was the case?

*** done changes everyday for the past four days: 1 30-ish, 2nd was 60-ish, 3rd was 80-ish, and another 50 last night. I evn anticipate having extremely high levels later on today and have to do *another* change. Its very frustrating when you do all this work with little to no change. It makes me feel like this is all pointless bcuz it's just not helping. Should I do it agn today? I'm so tired from all this work, my setup is not convenient enough for these WC's to be done easily by any stretch.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

This happens fairly often to people. I don't know of a test that goes higher than the aquarium kits. I think fish become accustomed to the nitrates up to a point and that's why you have to reduce them gradually. Else you could do 100% water change and be done. Definitely get a Python!

Did you test your tap water?

Yes sludge is normal in filters, the cartridge holds it back but it cannot be removed except by you. You don't want to scrub surfaces (except the impeller housing) because beneficial bacteria cling there, but all sections of the filter should be vigorously rinsed with tank water.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Ignore the test strip results! Only use the liquid test for now. If you can, test it today and post the results.

The only importance of knowing your chlorine or chloramine level of the tap water is to know exactly how much water conditioner to add when performing a water change. I don't think many people are actually verifying what the chlorine level is at their faucet tap when determining how much conditioner to add. You could always get your local water provider's annual results from their website to see what the residual levels are when they test at their water plant; however, this does not mean those results will be the same at your home.

I don't see a need to remove the gravel, just continue regular substrate vacuuming until it is manageable.

You can't measure how much bacteria is in the tank but as long as your test results are showing zero ammonia and nitrite, you should be fine. You may be seeing a slight increase in ammonia but that could be due to you messing with the tank recently or it could be due to your local water company using chloramine as the disinfectant and your tests are just showing trace amounts. (Never mind, I see you have zero ammonia at the tap!)

You mentioned your filters are new, which models do you have?


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## Loume (Dec 27, 2014)

If you used the nitrate test kit very many times without shaking the #2 reagent, then throw it away and get new. The concentration of chemicals may be off now and you likely wouldn't be able to get a proper reading. Be sure to follow all the directions carefully.


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## FrauleinAsh (Apr 30, 2015)

Deeda said:


> Ignore the test strip results! Only use the liquid test for now. If you can, test it today and post the results.
> 
> The only importance of knowing your chlorine or chloramine level of the tap water is to know exactly how much water conditioner to add when performing a water change. I don't think many people are actually verifying what the chlorine level is at their faucet tap when determining how much conditioner to add. You could always get your local water provider's annual results from their website to see what the residual levels are when they test at their water plant; however, this does not mean those results will be the same at your home.
> 
> ...


Grrr....

Api kit *still* top of the charts. The strips, however, show 80, but they showed off the charts for a wk straight. evn tho I am supposed to not pay much mind to them it is the *only* indicator I have that all this work has done *something*. Before I learned that I needed to shake vial #2 no3 I was getting off the charts readings on the *strips*, but not a lot via vial. Now its the opposite. :roll:

What baffles me is that I can do a 60,80,30,60 WC's and *still* read off the charts! *** done the math here, it's almost as if someone put nitrate concentrate in my filters so that no matter how many times I do this I will FAIL. There's either something I'm missing, or my nitrates were at, maybe, 1000?? How are my fish still alive if thats possible? That means that, after an 80% WC, my nitrates are *still* 180... that means the mere TWENTY % of my residual water was so filthy that it still is enough to cause *this*?

***New piece of the puzzle***

My bf just told me he nvr changed the water b4 I moved in (abt a yr and a half) he thought that bcuz he had such a nice filtration that he didn't need WC's. U would b surprised to find how many ppl do NOT know this crucial piece of the puzzle. Anyways, that monster pleco was darn near IMPOSSIBLE to clean up after, we sucked the gravel EVERYDAY and it was nvr enough, he ALWAYS had like 4 ft strings of poo hanging from his touche at any given time. It was a NIGHTMARE. Do u think the 20% of water is so bad bcuz of THIS??

Can u OVER shake the bottle of no3?? We're going to buy another test kit today, his mom gave this one to us and we dont know if its too old.

Its so crazy for me to look over at my flawless, crystal clear tank w/(seemingly) happy little fish twirling and swimming and doing fishstuff... and knowing that they are NOT ok.  Breaks my heart, the thought of them being uncomfortable bcuz of *me*. They're counting on me. And *I'm* counting on this forum!

Oh yeah...

Marineland Penguin Power Filter 50-70 gal with 350 gal per hr
and
Tetra 25775 Whisper Power Filter 30-60 gal with 330 gal per hr


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## FrauleinAsh (Apr 30, 2015)

There rlly doesnt seem to b a way to proceed here without doing a 100% WC, I wish I had done that in the beginning, my fish would b less stressed. So... to avoid stressing them unecessarily I essentially caused MORE stress bcuz of the constant changing of the water, rather than just put them somewhere else, drain, clean, then return them.

Anything I should know abt doing 100% WC? I've nvr done it while having actual fish in it.

Edit: Is a python one of those siphons for cleaning gravel/removing water? Cuz I do have one.


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## FrauleinAsh (Apr 30, 2015)

Can I feed my fish yet? Every 2-3 days makes me feel like I'm torturing them. They guilted me into giving them a small amount of flakes yesterday... they went FAST and I felt guilty that some of the smaller fish didnt seem to get much, if any. This morning, after having a little taste, they seem MORE agitated. The harmony in the tank is turning into NOT harmony. My ahli keeps nippin at tails and decor. My dragon blood is swimming frantically at the side of the tank. My albino DB does it sometimes, too. I have some babies that probably will need to move out once they grow a little bigger bcuz they dont normally do well together in all cases... so I worry that, evn tho they all love each other now, taking the food away might make them fight.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Malawi can go 28 days and more without eating...the mom's do it all the time when they hold the babies in their mouths. Removing toxins is #1 now.

I copied a link to this post into the Malawi thread where you also asked about feeding them.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

You never mentioned that the nitrate test kit may be old or was given to you so that is something to consider especially since you are seeing wonky numbers with the water change schedule. Try to get the new kit soon so you can verify the actual test results.


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

There has been a lot of information passed in this thread so forgive if I missed something. You have done a lot of changes to your tank.How are you remaining fish acting. The ones that died how old where they and the kind of fish. Are the remaining ones eating and moving about. What again is in the tank. I feel you have done enough to the tank to pause for a time and let things settle. It is my opinion that the tank had old tank syndrome. This has destabilized the whole system. If the remaining fish are eating a doing "fishy things" let them be. Get your new test kits and see what you have. You have done so much in such a short period of time that it's hard to pinpoint what might be the issue.


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## FrauleinAsh (Apr 30, 2015)

Cyphound said:


> There has been a lot of information passed in this thread so forgive if I missed something. You have done a lot of changes to your tank.How are you remaining fish acting. The ones that died how old where they and the kind of fish. Are the remaining ones eating and moving about. What again is in the tank. I feel you have done enough to the tank to pause for a time and let things settle. It is my opinion that the tank had old tank syndrome. This has destabilized the whole system. If the remaining fish are eating a doing "fishy things" let them be. Get your new test kits and see what you have. You have done so much in such a short period of time that it's hard to pinpoint what might be the issue.


I'm srry, I've posted so many different posts to several different threads, I couldn't remember what I said in what post, but...

yeah, I was worried abt the test bcuz I didn't know how long the previous owner had it. The good news? The new test came with an actual INSTRUCTION BOOKLET that contained all *kinds* of info and directions that I didnt know abt. The bad news is ... my nitrates are still in the red zone. :? So now the only "misreading" I get is from the strips (they read between 80-160), which are accurate/comparable to the api vials abt 75% of the time, but 25% inaccuracy is still huge. The strips read the same as my liquid for *everything* else but the nitrates. The other tank I have reads 160+ nitrates, which IS the same as the liquid when I test it. Why are the nitrate levels the only inconsistency in my one tank? Grrr! Obviously I have to always side with the liquid.

*Behavior:*

A few issues we've had for a lil' while... its hard to say whether some of this strange *new* behavior is caused by losing the Dominant fish & trying to re-establish a new pecking order. Anyways, one of the adults that died (hybrid, maybe zebra?) had a bloated belly & his eyes popped out a lil more than they shoulda, he kinda just floated in the same place or hid,lost coordination, sunk to the bottom and stopped moving, the next day he died. The other one that died was the Dom, a red top zebra. I kept seeing him and a few others scratch on the decor/rocks. My lab was doing it, too .. he had sores from it but now they've healed and he looks great. I kept saying to my bf "they look swollen", but he just said they'd always been like that and wasn't worried abt the RTZ (His belly was the second fattest) his behavior was *definitely* outta whack, a few days b4 he died he started hiding and being sluggish when he used to b very lively. We only have 1 more thats "fat", and he's always been a hider so its hard to say whether him hiding alot has anything to do with anything.

I've researched abt a doz different diseases/conditions and some symptoms fit a lot of things but not anything *entirely*. I thought maybe malawi bloat but there's no white poo. I thought it might b parasites but I can't find one that would cause the swelling, etc. :x I'll try to take as pic of our OB zebra to see if u guys think his belly looks swollen to u.

I have to take the ahli out today, I'm devastated, but evr since I stopped feeding them he's angry with everyone and anyone that swims too close, they get nipped or chased. My DB is swimming frantically at the sides of the tank a good amount of the time, occasionally the albino DB does it, too. My 2 adult mbunas hide quite a bit, but they have done that since I met them, however, their tank was evn worse b4 I moved in here & started working diligently @ fixing these lvls. My tank setup is in my signature, all my fish are babies except the 2 mbunas. The stock is *way* off, I have to separate my mbunas from my haps when our other tank is finished being set up, but that's an entirely different thread. I work from home so I'm *always* watching them. Everyones eating and swimming around, except for my 2 hiders.

I'm very worried and extremely frustrated bcuz I read sooo much and work so hard and yet I feel like I've done nothing to help my babies. I've heard of ppl losing fish within 24hrs of high no3, they've been doing this for wks. 

I'm dumbfounded as to HOW my new fish survived such a radical change in nitrates from the fish store to home. I was told not to do 100% WC's bcuz of possible nitrate shock. I took a few days off, but we wanted to do another 50% today... I hesitate to do that bcuz at this point I wonder if 100% change is unavoidable.
My fish are counting on me, thank god for u guys here, I would b a total wreck if I didn't have you guys' guidance, I'm surprised anyone evn cares enough to read all these lengthy posts but I need to b as thorough as possible if I want to save them. 
Thank u guys, so much...


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

Symptoms of nitrate shock. Loss of appetite, fish become listless, experience loss of equilibrium, and can lay at bottom of tank, have rapid gill movement.
Forget the test strips and stick with the liquid. You need consistency. The remaining fish sound like they are fine. Like deeda said if the ammonia and nitrites are good relax. One question when do you compare the vial to the chart for nitrates. is it right after or 5-10-15 minutes.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Regarding the possible bloat...you said no white/clear thready feces. Did you see thick, brown feces? The absence of feces of any kind can be a symptom of bloat too.


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## FrauleinAsh (Apr 30, 2015)

Omgosh 

I've witnessed almost *all* of them "scratching" now, not just the 2 adults. The 2 adults have been together since the beginning of time, they were raised together and have always been peaceful. Now the lab is chasing the zebra all the time and I don't know if its a dominance thing (the old dom just passed) or a nitrate thing. Are the nitrates making them scratch?? Maybe something else? Can parasites or other illness cause high no3?

I'm *very* concerned abt the healthy bacteria. They need another WC but I just don't know if I should do another 50, or a 75, or just do the 100% and risk the nitrate shock. I dunno how much more of this they can take. I'm afraid to do anything w/o advice.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Parasites and illness do not cause nitrates. I would not worry about the beneficial bacteria unless you have ammonia or nitrites.

Nitrates can irritate the fish, but so can water changes.

You got the new kit and shook 30 seconds in the bottle and 60 seconds in the test tube? Waited 5 minutes? What is your result now?

Test your tap water as well, the nitrates should be zero.


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## FrauleinAsh (Apr 30, 2015)

Good to know, thnx so much. Our water from tap is so perfect for african cichlids that I'm fairly certain every cichlid owner in the galaxy would b mighty jealous. No nitrates, nitrites, or ammonia, & the GH&KH are flawless. I test the tank water at *least* 2x a day, I'm maniacal abt getting this water straight. It is still registering at the highest test lvl.

I'm hoping that by the time I'm done with abt half the water change today someone will have chimed in abt whether or not I should just do a 100% and b done with it, or if I should do maybe 65-75% today and maybe 50-75% the following (if I dont see results within 24 hrs)? I feel so lost and discouraged that I hesitate to do *anything* w/o a veteran to advise me.

On a lighter note, after I fed the hap ahli some protein instead of veggie flakes he is totally docile agn. But of course I cant feed them agn til' the no3 is down, so I dont imagine his laid backness will last long.


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## FrauleinAsh (Apr 30, 2015)

Ok, there's half the water gone... I'm gonna keep going to 75% unless I hear otherwise.

My bf uses Stress Coat AND Quick Start to condition, is it better to use one of these rather than both?


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

What does your test say is in your tap water? Agricultural runoff, industrial, waste reclamation, etc. can cause the levels of nitrate and/or ammonia to be high in your tap water. Compared to fish, humans can take it. Tap water can acceptably contain these at higher levels than would be good for fish.

If you have an over size wet/dry filter, it is also possible for the same bacteria that help legumes (peas, clover, etc.) to fix nitrogen to colonize the wet/dry. They then convert atmospheric nitrogen into a form that rapidly ends up as nitrate in your aquarium water. In either of the two scenarios above, even a 100% water change would fail to remove the nitrate. You would just be replacing old nitrate for new.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

I use as little chemicals as possible. There is a product called Dechlor that has only the active ingredient that disables chlorine and no embellishments. That is what I use unless I get something free to try.

If you are going to 75% or higher, get a large all plastic trash can like the Reef keepers use to mix their water. Circulate new tap water in that container with the lid on for 24 hours or longer then test it. I like to use a power head or pond pump instead of an airstone because then I can use it to pump the water into my aquariums.

Unless you are served by one of the 20% of US water companies that use chloramine at least periodically, you can count on the water circulation to remove all of the chlorine.


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

Stop the water changes please. With the amount you have done you should have nearly no nitrates so something else is causing nitrates. You have not answered many of the questions posed to you. We can only help by eliminating one thing at a time. I'm not trying to be rude but your throwing so much into the conversation it's hard to have that process of elimination. Can we start with answers to the following please.

1. Please tell us ALL the test results from testing your tap water. Numbers please not colours.
2. Please tell us ALL the test results from testing your tank water.
3.What is your water source. City or well.
4. Please tell us how the nitrate test is being done.


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## FrauleinAsh (Apr 30, 2015)

Cyphound said:


> Stop the water changes please. With the amount you have done you should have nearly no nitrates so something else is causing nitrates. You have not answered many of the questions posed to you. We can only help by eliminating one thing at a time. I'm not trying to be rude but your throwing so much into the conversation it's hard to have that process of elimination. Can we start with answers to the following please.
> 
> 1. Please tell us ALL the test results from testing your tap water. Numbers please not colours.
> 2. Please tell us ALL the test results from testing your tank water.
> ...


I apologize for any confusion, I just didn't want to answer the same questions ovr and ovr. I'm not at all offended nor do I find it rude, all I care abt is helping my fish. U could all come into this thread screaming at me & calling me names and I don't care, I just want to HELP them! The only question I didn't technically answer was the part abt waiting 5 min after the nitrate test, I made the wrong assumption that u would know I did it right when I stated that I had a lot more info in the instruction booklet that I didn't know previous to that time, my bad. But yes, 5-10 min. I've had other ppl do it to check my work.

Too late on the WC, I just took abt 75-80% out. Now I'm guessing its too late to do the 24hr overnight settling of the water since I imagine keeping all those fish in such tight quarters would cause fights or stress, I'll have to fill my bin and let it set for tomorrows change, if need be. The tap water parameters are posted a few times, no ammonia/nitrates/nitrites and the hardness is immaculate. The source is city. The nitrate test is being done exactly the way it says to; Use the vial of fish water, filled to the line. Add 10 drops of bottle #1, cap & invert 2x. Then shake the bottle #2 like a maniac for abt a min, apply, then vigorously shake the ending solution for one minute, put aside, check in 5 min. Oh! I also check the conditioned new tap water b4 adding it to the tank. 

At this point perhaps calling the water company is my *only* option? I will call them right now, thanks so much!!


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

At this point your tank water is your tap water since you have changed so much so your nitrates have to be zero since this is what you say your tap water is. Nitrates are the end result of cycle and that takes time. confirm please


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## FrauleinAsh (Apr 30, 2015)

Nitrate lvl after yesterday's 75% WC... between 20-40!! =D> now THAT... is a welcome change.  ~phew~
FINALLY some indication that this work isn't pointless.

I just want to say that reading the test under *natural* light made the difference of maybe 20 points. I wonder if previous tests woulda shown closer to 120-ish or possibly 80 had I not read the test under florescent light.

This whole experience made me feel like I was sitting along a friend or family members bedside after a horrible, possibly fatal diagnosis, and then doctor cichlid-forum MD comes in & says ''he's gonna live'!

So now... a couple few 50% WC and I'm on my way towards ZERO. I can only hope that this thread may help others w/similar issues. I'm guessing this all had to do with OBSCENELY high NO3 from that darn sea-monster pleco's waste. Or possibly the 'new tank syndrome' afore mentioned. I dunno how they've survived, honestly.

I don't want to sound dramatic, but.. w/o this forum my fish would all be dead. And, though some ppl may not understand the kind of love we cichlid owners have for our precious fish-kids, it woulda just wrecked me. I've lost alotta sleep over this. Thank u ALL for being patient/caring enough to walk me thru this. I won't evr forget any of u who's posted in this thread, I'm forever in your debt.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You don't necessarily want nitrates = zero. Shoot for 20ppm before a water change and 10ppm (or less) after.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

I do have some tanks with zero nitrate. I put some cuttings of philodendron in them way back when. They grow off the sides and above the aquariums searching for the light and filling the tank with a maze of roots, like you might imagine in some Amazon River byway. The better the lighting they can get to, the faster they sponge up all of the nitrate. You do have to keep the roots out of filters if they get too aggressive. I have them growing in a mbuna tank but in that tank there are practically no roots. The fish eat them, but the plant seems to be growing anyway.

Some other tanks of ours have zero nitrate because of Cell Pore denitrator blocks. I bought those in the mid 1980's and they still are working.


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## FrauleinAsh (Apr 30, 2015)

daphnia, I heard those plants are toxic when eaten? I can't find some of the plants cichlids like, such as duckweed, java ferns/moss, or anubis to help w/no3. I got the numbers down but can't seem to get them lower. I did a 30% WC & don't know if I'm being paranoid or the nunbers didn't rlly go down but... I could SWEAR its the same color as b4 :-\ I'm gonna go test my neighbors tank, we have the same water... only she has a few goldfish & no filter, but she did a 50% WC 2 days ago. 
**i just tested hers, our nitrates are both zero b4 putting it in the tank, then reads high the nxt day. It's not my filters, the only thing that'd be different is the fact that she doesn't run a filter, so I'm guessing something happens to our water over a period of time?

We have some ceramic fish rocks/hide outs, can that cause No3 to increase this much overnight? I can't keep doing 80% WCs every week. I'm calling the water company in a few minutes, I just don't know if they'll b able to help figure this out.


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## FrauleinAsh (Apr 30, 2015)

RIP Tony :'( now I only have one adult left, my yellow lab that scratches w/the couple sores on him. Those 2 have been putting up w/this for awhile now. I guess Tony couldn't do it anymore. I am so heartbroken.


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## FrauleinAsh (Apr 30, 2015)

I'm hoping I won't have to start a new thread to get replies, this thread is rather old.

Update: my nitrates were @ 30ppm for abt a month. Then we finally got em down to between 10-20. No nitrites/ammonia, ph 7.4 
Kh-71.6ppm
Gh-107.4
Phosphate-.5 (I don't evn know what phosphate means, we just saw the [email protected] the store & thought it may be relevant)

So after getting the no3, no2, ammonia, & ph ideal conditions, we wanted to attend to our lab, who had a nasty sore & a few white dots (sores? Scales? Parasites?) So we added aquarium salt, one tbsp per 5 gallons, accounting for the decorations, so we treated for 45 gal, so approx 9 tblsp for 55gal. The next day he came outta hiding & started swimming around for the first time in I dunno how long, and the 2 white spots went away! Cool! We also raised the temp to 86 to kill any possible parasites bcuz we weren't entirely sure what we were dealing with, but we didn't want to use any chems if not necessary, salt was a better alternative. The salt was in there @ that level for roughly 5 days, w/both filters cycling w/carbon in them, then took the temp down to 82 (slowly, ovr a 2 day period) and did a 50% water change. We have 4 plants that I'm guessing were the ONLY reason we brought our nitrates down, we took them out during the salt treatment... we put them in a glass pitcher filled w/tank water and put it on the Window sil to give them some sun. We prepared for the possibility that this might still kill our plants, but we needed the fish to b healthy!

Anyways...

My bf took the 2 media bags outta the filter on the right side of the tank. I asked him to swish it around in some tank water (outside the tank) to get excess filth off it) but he said it was so gross that it was BEYOND that & we needed to replace entirely. I asked him to take a piece of the old filter and stick it in the new media bag, but he said it wasn't the sort of media bag that could open & have things added to it. I figured the bacteria in the other filter would be enough. So! I checked the levels this morning and whadda ya know, our numbers are back up:
No3- 40ppm :roll: 
No2- .25
Ammonia-0
Ph- 7.4
Kh-71.6
Gh-107.4
Phosphate- .25

Why??? What have we done wrong? What do we do NOW? Can the plants do this if they were wilted when we returned them to the tank? Did the salt do this? Maybe changing the media bags?

My fish are back to doing that thing where they frantically rub up/down the sides of the tank. I dunno if they do it on the sides bcuz the airstones are right there or if that's just a coincidence, I don't think *** seen them do it down the front or back of the tank.

*I rlly need help*, guys, im worried no one will reply bcuz no one replied to my thread abt the salt. Please help, I rlly love my fish & I hate that they're uncomfortable, they're counting on me.


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## FrauleinAsh (Apr 30, 2015)

Ya know what... I'm starting to second guess my ammonia level. Its been 0 for so long that I saw the yellow tint & recorded 0, but ... I dunno if there's a hint of green in it or not, bcuz a hint of green would make it .25, but I could swear there is. But, I might be looking too hard.

Im an artist & a female (our eyes detect color better) so my perception of color is impeccable. My bf has rlly good eyes (for a guy, heheheh) and he can see a teeny hint of green, too. Not quite enough to hit the .25 mark, but not 0, either. I agree. So that's 2 sets of eyes that confirm its between 0-.25.
Sooo... I guess its .13ppm

My fish look like they're swimming in poison, very stressed fish!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Did you get all the salt out? I saw only a 50% water change?

The salt, ammonia and nitrite and nitrate can irritate the fish.

Changing the media bags could have caused issues...I replace mine maybe once/year.

The answer to almost anything with the water is PWC...try 50% today and nitrates should be 20ppm. And 50% tomorrow to get nitrates to 10ppm. That will also lower your salt, ammonia and nitrite.


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## FrauleinAsh (Apr 30, 2015)

No, I only did a 50% WC bcuz I ddnt know if I had to take the salt out or do it in increments so as not to jolt them or anything. I'm going to have to do another WC today anyways, which would mean there would be 25% of the salt water put in last wk. I tested agn today:
No3~ this is crucial: if I hold it *right* up flat against the paper, they register @ maybe 60ppm. However, if I hold it a few inches ABOVE the white background they register significantly lower @ approximately 30ppm. HUGE difference, so I need to know which way is correct. The instructions say to read it against a white background, but they don't make it very clear if it has to be FLAT against the white so as not to allow any light to be between them. Hope that made sense xxx
No2~ 0 (yesterday was .25)
Ammonia~ .13 (I'm not ENTIRELY sure if there rlly IS a hint of green or if I'm being paranoid)
Ph~ 7.6
Kh~89.5
Gh~125.3

We put an entirely different media bag in our one filter, & for what it's worth, the nitrites and ammonia registered higher the next day (no2 Was .25, ammonia .13), which have been 0 for ovr a month. The nitrites are zero today but I don't know entirely if there was evn a *slight* change in ammonia.

My bf says we need to replace the media in the other filter, he says its caked on so much that swishing it around in tank water won't help, the filter might not be turning ovr the water the way its supposed to bcuz its too clogged. With *this* filter I have the ability to add a piece of the old media bag to keep some bacteria, whereas the other can't do that.

What in heavens is the reason my water going INTO the tank perfectly, yet the next day it registers very high?? I can't imagine we are overfeeding them to the point where it registers that high in simply 24hrs, nor do I imagine there's enough ceramic to cause that sort of jump. There's a lotta fish in there, but they are all very small, our filters turn ovr twice as much as we need bcuz we have two that are for 55gal. They only eat veggie flakes.

I rlly hope we can figure this out. There is NOTHING online that can explain why my perfect tap water turns bad so quickly.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I place the test tube against the chart and even roll it over the colors. I take it outside in natural light. Choose the closest color.

Fish waste or other rotting organic material is what is causing your toxins. You need your beneficial bacteria to grow to convert ammonia and nitrite to nitrate. And then you need to remove nitrates via filter cleaning, substrate vacuuming and water changes. Removing a filter media bag removed the beneficial bacteria. You can blast the media with tank water pretty strongly. I've never had to throw media away because it was too dirty...only because it disintegrated over a number of years.


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## B.Roberson (Nov 6, 2011)

Fish waste or other rotting organic material is what is causing your toxins. You need your beneficial bacteria to grow to convert ammonia and nitrite to nitrate. And then you need to remove nitrates via filter cleaning, substrate vacuuming and water changes. Removing a filter media bag removed the beneficial bacteria. You can blast the media with tank water pretty strongly. I've never had to throw media away because it was too dirty...only because it disintegrated over a number of years.[/quote]Agree with dj. i've never thrown media,, ie: pads and sponges away,im not talking ceramic rings etc.. until they fall apart.I hear people say they change it every couple months cuz its sooo dirty, But if you do regular cleaning and rinse them thoroughly, keeping your BB wet, you should have no problem. Never change the bio media until its exhausted.


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## eaglesgift (Apr 25, 2015)

FrauleinAsh said:


> My bf says we need to replace the media in the other filter, he says its caked on so much that swishing it around in tank water won't help, the filter might not be turning ovr the water the way its supposed to bcuz its too clogged. With *this* filter I have the ability to add a piece of the old media bag to keep some bacteria, whereas the other can't do that.


You've just thrown out half your beneficial bacteria by replacing the media in the other filter and now you want to throw the other half away? That's clearly not the right thing to do at this stage.


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## Joe.Lemm (Oct 29, 2012)

Hey!

Sorry to hear about your troubles!

When it comes to the ammonia, my test kit always measures a small ammount, even when it's fresh out of the tap. Try comparing a test from your tank water side by side with one for your tap and see if you have different ammonia readings. I would suggest doing the same with nitrate readings. If possible, take pictures of the results of these side by side tests and post them on here, that way we will all have a better understanding of your water parameters.

I read through the thread quickly last night and didnt notice anything about filtration... What filters are you running? Also, regarding filters, I noticed early in the thread that ( May 10th), that you said the filter cartridges were new... If thats the case, alreading needing to be replaced means you may have an over feeding issue here...

Anyways, got to get to work... if you could get back to us with the following, we could probably help you out more:

1. Pictures of tap water vs tank water for nitrates and ammonia
2. Schedule of previous W/C from last month
3. Filters you have running in tank

Hope you get this sorted out soon!


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## FrauleinAsh (Apr 30, 2015)

ok, picture time! Bear with me here, this is alotta work...

*NITRATES*

*Tank water*~No3 pressed up against the white notebook, in the sun, but from my window:



*Tank water*~This is from my window, still direct sunlight, but raised up abt 2 inches from the white background:



*Tank water*~ Next, I went outside ... today was EXTREMELY bright, it hurt my eyes to look at the white test card/glare from the light, so sun was coming into the tube from every angle. This one is flat against the card:



*Tank water*~Still outside, but held slightly away from the paper:



*Tap water*~ These are my nitrates from the tap, completely outside, flat against the card:



*Tap water*~ Nitrates held away from the card, completely outside:



Nitrates: BOTH tap (left) and tank (right) outside:



*Ammonia*

*Tank water*~ This is with natural sun, outside, flat against the card:



*Tank water*~ This is raised a little:



These are both my ammonia vials outside, they look the same to me:



Sooo, this next pic is my nitrates/ammonia from both tap and tank, natural light from my window:

Left to right: Tap NO3, Tap ammonia, Tank No3, tank ammonia.



Those last photos were from later in the day.

ANYWAYS! :fish:

My filtration is as follows:

Tetra 25775 Whisper power filter~ 30-60 gallons, turns over 330 gal per hour
and
Marineland Penguin power filter~ 50-70 gallons, turning over 350 gallons per hour

Hmmm, there have been a LOT of water changes, but when I started doing this (can't remember the order) 60% day 1, 30% day 2, 70-80% day 3, 60%, day 4 I can't recall offhand, but probably 70%. On the 5th day I was pretty spent, I gave it a break but it was around this time where I actually saw a drop, all the way down to 40ppm, which sounds insane for u but for me it was a god send. After that I think I waited maybe 5 days then did a 40-50%, and have been doing it weekly since then. You can see why this is so confusing! It makes ABSOLUTELY no sense that evn after those water changes the levels would register so high, my nitrates from tap are 0, what is happening in a 24hr period that would DO this?? Can over-feeding make things *this* outrageous?? There are a lot of fish in there, but our filtration is sufficient, no? I've called the water company but they haven't returned my call, but honestly I don't evn see how they could help, their water is fine.

I just did a 70-ish % WC. I didn't scrub the decorations or anything, but I did suction the gravel like I always do every time, but I know I need that bacteria. Can't I just toss in some of this healthy bacteria in a bottle stuff to help aid things? They make some stuff that helps dissolve No2, No3, and ammonia, in a bottle. Should I? I've worked VERY hard to prevent myself from having to use any chems, but I'm worried more abt the health of my fish at this point. I also have whats called "Bio-boost" packets that's supposed to boost the bacteria that's already in there. Ugh.

I feel like the worst cichlid owner in the galaxy, this is breaking my heart seeing my fish lose color and rub against things because theyre uncomfortable and it's my fault. I go to bed and wake up thinking abt them, heck, I evn dream abt this stuff in my sleep!


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## Joe.Lemm (Oct 29, 2012)

Ammonia levels look pretty similar to how mine read in any of my tanks... As for nitrates, they are definitely very high considering the number of water changes. I can make it a solid week and my nitrates aren't close to that in my 120 Gallon with 2 full grown oscars, a Gar, and a full grown Raphael Catfish.

When you feed, is there ever a time where *any food at all* is left over on the bottom of the tank? Not sure why else you would have such high nitrates...

I know it sounds silly, but a feeding time video could probably help us judge if what they are being fed is too much. In the few years that I kept african cichlids, not once did I feed them enough that they didn't want to eat anymore. Hungry fish = happy fish, even though its pretty easy to feel bad for them. Like someone mentioned earlier, the females can make it a month without food.

One other thing to check for would be a dead fish hidden somewhere in your tank... that can make things get pretty toxic pretty quickly.

Also, as for water conditioner, I and most others from what I know swear by Seachem Prime. I have been keeping fish on city water for about 5 years now, and never had an issue while using it. When I W/C, I turn off filters/ heater, drain as much as I want to take out of the tank, and fill it back up with a python adding prime a little bit at a time throughout the filling process.

Hope we can help!


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## FrauleinAsh (Apr 30, 2015)

eaglesgift said:


> FrauleinAsh said:
> 
> 
> > My bf says we need to replace the media in the other filter, he says its caked on so much that swishing it around in tank water won't help, the filter might not be turning ovr the water the way its supposed to bcuz its too clogged. With *this* filter I have the ability to add a piece of the old media bag to keep some bacteria, whereas the other can't do that.
> ...


Sorry you misunderstood, I didn't say I agreed w/him 
What I *should* have said... was how do I get these media bags to function w/o replacing it? If I can't use tap water, how do I get the sorta force I need to get all that gunk out? Are we talking like every week, or...?
There's no way I'd change those bags right now. But it isn't filtering at full capacity. I heard salt can cake on the filters so it would make sense that it'd mess up the actual media bag.


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## FrauleinAsh (Apr 30, 2015)

Joe.Lemm said:


> I read through the thread quickly last night and didnt notice anything about filtration... What filters are you running? Also, regarding filters, I noticed early in the thread that ( May 10th), that you said the filter cartridges were new... If thats the case, alreading needing to be replaced means you may have an over feeding issue here...
> 
> See, I had considered that... but I just can't imagine how much food it'd take to make my numbers so obscene. I don't *think* I am? Our veggie flakes say to feed 1-3 times a day, what my fish can consume in 5 minutes... I only feed twice a day, but only what they can consume in abt a min or 2. I hope that isn't too bad or anything.
> 
> ...


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

You are supposed to hold the test tube vial against the white background of the color chart in bright light such as that found in your home. Wait only the five minutes after you are done with the test as the color will continue to change.


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

I'm old so patience is not a virtue. None of this makes sense. My theory. The tank was old tank syndrome. SO many changes that the tank started cycle again due to filter discards and water changes, cleaning, you name it. I've read the threads, sick fish, dead fish, speaking to the water company. I have never heard of the drastic measures taken with a tank as I have read on this thread. I will say again. Stop with all the changes and let things settle. Keep an eye on ammonia and nitrites so that we all can better understand and help you. Nitrates will not kill your fish in the short term however the stress from the changes will. Without eliminating one thing at a time you will not pinpoint what the cause is. If you want help lets SLOWLY use process of elimination.


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## eaglesgift (Apr 25, 2015)

What about tap water nitrites - you said they read zero before the water is added to the tank - you're 100% sure on that? Sorry, I'm not questioning your intelligence or capabilities but the only way a water change performed on a mature tank could result in a higher nitrate reading in my mind (assuming zero nitrates), is if the water being used was high in nitrites.

Regarding your clogged up media bags, it's not really possible for me to say how to clean them up as I can't see them. I can imagine they must be in quite a bad state if this system was left unmaintained for as long as you say. I guess all you can do is clean them as much as possible in tank water - or treated tap water - and only one at a time. If they are basically unusable but you are getting some water flow through the canister still, I'd wait a few weeks and then replace them one at a time, or some of the media in each bag over a period of time if they can be opened.


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## eaglesgift (Apr 25, 2015)

Just to add - you said on May 11th that you had new filter cartridges, now they are beyond cleaning? I'm confused how that could happen in such a short time. Also, if you completely replaced all the media in your filters a month ago, you would have started a new cycle I would have thought.


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## FrauleinAsh (Apr 30, 2015)

Joe.Lemm said:


> Ammonia levels look pretty similar to how mine read in any of my tanks... As for nitrates, they are definitely very high considering the number of water changes. I can make it a solid week and my nitrates aren't close to that in my 120 Gallon with 2 full grown oscars, a Gar, and a full grown Raphael Catfish.
> 
> When you feed, is there ever a time where *any food at all* is left over on the bottom of the tank? Not sure why else you would have such high nitrates...
> 
> ...


What a fantastic idea abt the video, I'll make one next feeding opcorn: Honestly, I've heard that NO food should evr hit the ground when feeding, but... I can't evn imagine that being possible, the pellets sink very quickly. The food hits the bottom but doesn't stay there long. There's rlly no *set amount* we feed, just how long it takes in 2min, adding small amounts as needed. We're using veggie flakes but our New Life Spectrum just came in the mail so... we were gonna switch. Is this food not a good idea?

There's no way there's a dead fish, we know our fish like the back if our hands and each feeding we account for each one of them to make sure everyone got enough to eat. No eat=Bad :fish:

The cleaning routine is almost the same as yours; turn water/heater off, use a gravel siphon to 'vacuum' the floor, drain it into the plastic storage bin we use (easier than the garbage cans) then scoop all the water into the bathtub, rinse, then fill our storage box agn w/new water (the plastic tub holds 33 gallons) then used 3 caps of Quick Start (1 cap full per 10 gal) and Stress Coat (3 caps for a 30gal WC), making sure the temp is the same, then leave it for abt 45min. I know ppl say they leave it to sit for 24hrs but the minimum is abt 30min, right? Finally (after testing the new waters parameters) we scoop it back into the tank w/a pitcher. There's a siphon u can use to put the water back *in*??  That sounds AMAZING! Our siphon won't work the opposite way, I've tried. Makes no sense that I can suck the water out from the tank but not from our plastic bin, but I've tried several times. I have a LOT of various chems/meds/treatments for them but *** nvr used 80% of them, just to have things on hand if/when I need it. I have a few other conditioners, such as API Water Conditioner & some others, but I can go get Seachem Prime.

I'm going to go test my new water parameters, and the video... brb! :dancing:


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## FrauleinAsh (Apr 30, 2015)

eaglesgift said:


> What about tap water nitrites - you said they read zero before the water is added to the tank - you're 100% sure on that? Sorry, I'm not questioning your intelligence or capabilities but the only way a water change performed on a mature tank could result in a higher nitrate reading in my mind (assuming zero nitrates), is if the water being used was high in nitrites.
> 
> Regarding your clogged up media bags, it's not really possible for me to say how to clean them up as I can't see them. I can imagine they must be in quite a bad state if this system was left unmaintained for as long as you say. I guess all you can do is clean them as much as possible in tank water - or treated tap water - and only one at a time. If they are basically unusable but you are getting some water flow through the canister still, I'd wait a few weeks and then replace them one at a time, or some of the media in each bag over a period of time if they can be opened.


Heheh... now u grasp just how absurd this all sounds :/ Oh yes, I am SURE. I test it allll the time, both strips and vials, plus I've had my bf double check my work by doing them on his own, same thing. Swear to god, this is *really* happening! And no one can help bcuz its just unheard of!

Is there any way that there's something in my tap that turns into nitrates ovr time or when coming into contact w/other chemicals/molecules? If not, its happening in my tank.

If I try to check the water in my frogs tank after a 100% WC and it's the same, its the water itself. If they aren't a problem in that tank, then it's in the tank/filters. I'm gonna try that today, but... ya know, they're frogs, so I dunno. My neighbors tank was confusing, too.. the first time I tested it it was just fine, however, the second time I tried it was sky high (evn after a big water change 2 days prior) but again, she has goldfish and her tank is only ten gallons. Ugh.


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## Joe.Lemm (Oct 29, 2012)

The nitrates have to be coming from somewhere, and its unlikely that it's the water. The main/ only source they come from is food/ poo. Unless theres something else in the tank thats decaying, I would be leaning towards food.

What colour is the matter that is clogging up your filters? is it a dark brown or more of an orange/ flake food colour?

If the filters are still plugged up, I would recommend treating some tap water out and cleaning out one of the filters. Take the media bag and swish it around in the water, really try to shake/ rub away most of the debris that's clogging it up. That will get some water flow happening again without killing off beneficial bacteria.


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## FrauleinAsh (Apr 30, 2015)

Yeah, it's an impossibility that there's a decaying fish in there. Throughout this entire mess we've taken EVERYTHING out and cleaned it thoroughly, top/bottom/inside/out, multiple times, evn. I had wondered the same bcuz we have a big fake rock in there that's hollow in the middle but... we've eliminated that as a possibility. We got plants a lil' while after we got our nitrates down and they seemed to help, but those are relatively new, and only 4 of them... if the nitrates are bad can it be from those plants? That doesn't explain why this was happening a month ago but maybe it's the problem NOW??

The thing abt over-feeding; my bf is a huge softie, it's very frustrating bcuz he thinks he's being good to them but in reality he is hurting them badly by over-feeding. I feel like I'm constantly telling him they've got enough food. I asked to let me watch him feeding them every time (to make sure he's not gorging the poor fellas) but I catch him sometimes giving a little too much. That being said, I can't imagine that he's over feeding *that* much to where my nitrates would be obscenely high. It's maybe too much but... seriously, THAT much? I'd say I feed 'em abt 50% of the time, so they don't eat like this *every* time. I shot the video of *him* specifically feeding so that u can see the worst of it.

The waterfall filter create so many bubbles that u can almost not evn see the actual food in the beginning, Keep it that mind while looking bcuz it appears that all those bubbles are actual pieces of food when they are not. Later in the video (a min & a half) he administers more food, u can see this better... so if u can see the pellets then, u can go ahead and assume the first pinch was similar in size. The video is 3 min long, but u can see there are still some pellets on the floor. Not a lot, and they wont stay there long... *definitely* all gone within 5 min. With me feeding, I'd guestimate I feed abt half of what he feeds, and for the most part, there isn't much of anything left after 2 min, if evn.

Bubbles is the name of our yellow lab, he's the only full grown fishkid we have, we have abt 4-5 "teens", and the rest are small. But there are 13, not including the 2 small clown plecos (less than 2 inches). I focus on him the most bcuz he is in very bad shape.  U can clearly see he has large sores and several areas of his scales where they are just rubbed off entirely. He's been putting up with these conditions for 1 & 1/2 yrs now. My bf had god AWFUL fish habits. He didn't have any WC's until I moved here. I have another thread talking abt this "illness" issue... but basically, I saw a white dot on my Dblood with very close examination. I have no idea if it was a raised scale or a sore but it looked 3d to me. After the salt treatment it went away. Bubbles' sores were healed, too... but now they're back(the BIG sore didn't go away but was healing nicely) Honestly, I can't remember the last time I saw Bubbles actually swim around the tank and NOT hide all day under his rock, until I did the salt treatment. He looked/acted GREAT! I examine my fish VERY closely, all the time... and sometimes I know I'm looking too much into things or being an over-protective fishmom, but I *think* I see 2 white dots on my OB/Peacock Dragonblood females tail (u couldn't possibly see it on a video) But, again, different thread... (health/illness section)

Anyways, this is my 1st video ever shot/uploaded, so bear with me here. I can shoot again if there's something *specifically* u guys need to see, I can do close-ups or focus on any particular thing u need me to. I know alotta u guys will get on my back abt the stock options, but we're setting up a 125 gal and all our cool rocks/decor are going in there, so yes, I know the tank/fish aren't ideal, but not for long. :fish:


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## Joe.Lemm (Oct 29, 2012)

Just to be clear, is that the amount of food that they are getting 2 times per day?


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

To simplify things I would invest in python if I were you. You will quickly become tired of water changes the way you are currently doing it. It is a awful lot of extra steps that don't have to be taken.


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