# help with plants!!!



## calebjimz (Aug 10, 2009)

alright so it seems to be the same story over and over. Everytime i purchase my plants from my lfs, they look nice and green, nothing wrong. then they go into my tank, and start withering away with holes and getting algae over them and just not looking as healthy as they did the first day. *** notice the roots turn dark (not sure if its rotting or algae growth on the roots). heres some pictures of the plants, sorry for the bad quality. right now theyre just floating around cause i was planning on taking them out. 

























some have holes, the leafs are turning yellow, etc. 
as far as my tank setup, i have a 160 gallon tank, 8 t5 lights putting out over 400 watts total at 6500k and they are on for about 10-12 hours during the day. filtration includes a wet/dry sump with a spray bar return to the main tank. I dont use fertilizers because the guy at the lfs said that no fertilizer can stand up to the fish you have in the tank (not sure thats entirely true but i took his word for it), and I also add nothing to the water itself other than the dechlorinator when i change my water. I have around 14 small to medium sized fish in my tank. Over the past 2 weeks *** experienced a significant growth of algae that you can actually see on top of the sand. Its the green spot kind and its making all my rocks look ugly. please, let me know what you guys think the problem is or any suggestions you have!!!


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## Aulonocara_Freak (May 19, 2011)

You lighting is a little bit high since you don't have many plant's and all the natural fertilizer's in the tank is causing the massive algae growth, that then turn's around to anubias (which is the plant you have) is a slow growing plant so the algae get's ahold of it then deprive's the plant of nutrient's. Also you want to aim for 6-7 hour's for your light to be on.

If you have the money go out and buy different anubia's plant's and some java fern, the plant's then should use most of the nutrient's in the water and you will have nice plant's and less algae.

Good Luck!

The,
Freak


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

You could reduce your photo period to 8 hours and you could do it in 2 four hour segments, with an hour two break, which is supposed to help reduce the growth of algae. You have a lot of light, probably way to much to grow plants with out CO2. As well, as mentioned, Anubias is a slow grower. What you could also try is to add some floating plants such as hornwort, which will really suck up the nutrients and shade the tank as well.


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## Aulonocara_Freak (May 19, 2011)

BillD said:


> What you could also try is to add some floating plants such as hornwort, which will really suck up the nutrients and shade the tank as well.


Well most cichlid's will eat it faster then it grow's.


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## londonloco (Mar 31, 2011)

EIGHT T5HO's!!!!!!!!.... 

You should cut that lighting down to 2 or 3 bulbs, on for 8 hours. I have 125g Tangy tank that I cut down to one T5HO (80W)bulb, and tho the algae is much better, I'm still fighting it.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

CO2 is the largest issue. With that much light the algae and plants will use up the carbon fast. I wouldn't be surprised if your pH doesn't climb high over time with your KH dropping. 
Anubias has high CO2 demands as well when we submerge it. Consider a CO2 system. Break up the photoperiod as Bill suggests. It will help.

Wattage is power consumption only... kelvin is a color... so you have a ton of light but a ton of it could be only so-so for quality. Have you looked at the par readings of your bulbs or the spectral graph?


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I'm afraid you may have fallen into the trap of thinking lighting is THE thing for plants. It is important but only one of many factors. Thinking of it as legs on a table you have one long leg, missing two legs of ferts and CO2. I think starting with a low tech planted would be much easier to learn on and then move to the high tech field of high light, CO2 and ferts. There are small pellets of fert which are designed for planted tanks. Beware the LFS guys who give free advice. It is often worthwhile to check it before swallowing!


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## Fishingdood (Jul 23, 2007)

That looks like anubias you have there. In reality you do not need C02 or ferts for these plants. You have more then plenty of light yes too much in fact. These are slow growing plants so to much light will cause alge to grow on the plants. Scrap it off and remove the dead leaves. Major thing with these plants is to make sure the rhizome are above the substrant that is where they absorb nutrients


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Anubias isnt as fast at growing as stem plants, but it is not what I would call a slow grower. Because Anubias can persist submerged at very low light levels and growth slows to a crawl, it gets labelled as a slow grower. With high light and CO2 it is a different story.

As pfunmo says, you could consider changing to a low tech setup instead of going high light, high tech. Your other choice is completing your high tech setup... Which is where my reply was headed.
Your call. :thumb:


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

The only trouble with jumping in at the high tech level is the odds of disappointment. Something like riding a motorcycle. It is better if you have ridden a tricycle and a bicycle before jumping on the motorcycle . It can be done but there are significant hazards involved.


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## Aulonocara_Freak (May 19, 2011)

PfunMo said:


> Something like riding a motorcycle. It is better if you have ridden a tricycle and a bicycle before jumping on the motorcycle . It can be done but there are significant hazards involved.


Great example!


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## calebjimz (Aug 10, 2009)

thanks for all the feedback. What i initially wanted when i was setting this up is a lot of plants! so i guess high tech was what i was going for, but i guess i didnt read enough. I didnt anticipate algae being such a problem, so what i was planning to do now is to create an algae scrubber, take out the algae thats in the tank, and then start fresh. I will be investing in a co2 system, but my only concern is that with a spray bar, will all the co2 be expelled once it reaches the spray bar? let me know what you guys think about these ideas


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## Lanaka (May 18, 2011)

Number6 said:


> Wattage is power consumption only... kelvin is a color... so you have a ton of light but a ton of it could be only so-so for quality. Have you looked at the par readings of your opcorn: bulbs or the spectral graph?


You know sumthing? Your post is the first time I've seen anyone pay real attention to the specs thrown around about lighting. And actually understand whats really being said. ...And whats not being said.

Watts = light fixtures' power consumption level. The higher number means more electricity is being consumed.

Degrees Kelvin = light sources' light color level. The higher number means the higher in the visible spectrum range the main output range is.

What I really find funny is that people dont use the figure that measures actual light intensity (brightness), especially when talking plants. Lux or lumens, sometimes also referred to luminosity. Another thing is that wattage is a poor indicator of brightness cuz an inefficient 60W bulb (like a '60s era incandescant bulb) will be more dimmer than an efficient 60W bulb (like a recent model CFS bulb). *** more to say but will reserve it for posting in the equipment threads.

-Lance


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## Lanaka (May 18, 2011)

Fishingdood said:


> That looks like anubias you have there. In reality you do not need C02 or ferts for these plants. You have more then plenty of light yes too much in fact. These are slow growing plants so to much light will cause alge to grow on the plants. Scrap it off and remove the dead leaves. Major thing with these plants is to make sure the rhizome are above the substrant that is where they absorb nutrients


Anubias are great plants! I have about 8-10 species in my tank, and yes, they are slow growers. Technically these African species of plants are bog plants, but they easily can handle permanent immersion in water, they just grow slower than being emersed (out of water). About the only thing I'd like to clarify is the bit about the rhizome. The Anubias is whats called an epiphyte, a plant that grows on another object, where the roots serves mainly as an anchorage. The rhizome serves as food storage much like fatty layers in a mammal. The anubias mainly feeds thru its leaves, thats why algae growth on leaves is such an anubias killer.

If you put them on the substrate directly, make sure the rhizome is on the surface, not buried in the substrate (the roots themselves can handle being buried). If the rhizome is buried, it tends (actually almost always) to start rotting and dies. For substrate placement, Id recommend first either attaching them to a flat rock and then place in tank after the plant has taken hold. Just bury the rock so that the rhizome is still visible. The other method is harder but more aesthetically pleasing but more easily uprooted by diggers is what I like call the Lilliputian Method (as in Gulliver's Travels). Basically anchor the plant directly to the substrate with line and stakes. The roots will eventually spread outwards into the substrate so that in the end, if you were to (ohmigosh!) yank the suka out at the roots, it will take with it a huge load of substrate with it.

I love Anubias, but you just have to be patient with em. ...or if youre impatient like me, I went out and bought a shet load and tossed them into my tanks. I love to mix them with other epiphyres like Java Ferns and Moss (even tho they are not Africans. Another African epiphyte is the African Fern.

Now for my Honesty Disclaimer: I live in Hawaii, technically all of the above species of plants actually prefer water more neutral, or even slightly acidic water. I also dont bother modifying my water (adjusting pH, dH, etc.). It makes for an easier time for water changes as I maintain a separate set of long tanks for aging water for t&is purpose. I just make sure the water came from the same source and enters the fish tanks at the same temps. Thats why I have 2 tanks, a 30L is kept at the warmer temps for my Tang and Discus tanks, while the 20L is kept at the same 77degF for all the rest.

I also realize that fishes (and plants) may live longer and happpier if all parameters are kept perfect. But at same time, Im in this hobby as a Hobbiest, not a zoo pro. If I end up spending as much time/effort as work, it becomes work. And I started doing this to help me unstressed out from work. Ok, time fo me get off my soapbox (plus my cell battery has just hit 5% power left).

-Lance


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

calebjimz said:


> , so what i was planning to do now is to create an algae scrubber, take out the algae thats in the tank, and then start fresh. I will be investing in a co2 system, but my only concern is that with a spray bar, will all the co2 be expelled once it reaches the spray bar?


 an algae scrubber is not the way you want to go. What you want to do is to create a balance of lighting and nutrients like carbon that favors plant growth over algae. An algae scrubber might be handy if your source water has an excess of one or more particular nutrients and you need it used up in a safe way. E.g. Phosphate.

Once you are adding addiotional CO2, then yes... You want to avoid anything that will cause it to outgas as fast as you are bubbling it in.

So, pfunmo's analogy is a perfect one... You've chosen to jump straight onto a motorbike. Suggestion? Read, read, and read some more. The more you understand, the safer jumping onto a motorcycle will be. I cannot tell you how many new riders try and turn handlebars on a bike! :lol:


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Lanaka said:


> What I really find funny is that people dont use the figure that measures actual light intensity (brightness), especially when talking plants. Lux or lumens, sometimes also referred to luminosity.


Thanks for the compliment. :thumb: 
But...

I'm not a fan of using lumens. Lux and lumens let you know how bright the bulb is to the human eye. Our eyes perceive green light as the brightest so this is great if we have red plants... But not if we have green ones.

PAR is what we find handy as a summary measurement for a light bulb. For non-summarized data, we need the graph. 
I hope that helps.


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## Lanaka (May 18, 2011)

BillD said:


> You could reduce your photo period to 8 hours and you could do it in 2 four hour segments, with an hour two break, which is supposed to help reduce the growth of algae. You have a lot of light, probably way to much to grow plants with out CO2. As well, as mentioned, Anubias is a slow grower. What you could also try is to add some floating plants such as hornwort, which will really suck up the nutrients and shade the tank as well.


Wooh battery 100%. Amazed my last post made it thru. Cell shut down right in middle of posting...

I agree, reducing and breaking up the photo period seems to work for me. I'd differ with the hornwort, tho. Especially in a tank of cichlids. If ye wanna use floaters to soak up the excess free nutrients that will either grow fast enuff to stay ahead of the fishes tearing em up, or or use plants that you dont care about in long run (temporary plants). If you don't mind the cleanup issues, one option is duckweeds. They grow faster than just about anything, create a good shade, and soak up the nutrients (and lots of fish wastes) like gang busters. The problem is that it grows fast, sometimes TOO fast, as duckweeds under ideal conditions can take over the top of a tank within a few weeks. Related to the too fast issue, it can shade too much (a solid surface coverage means little light getting thru to the depths). For me that aint much of a problem. I just scoop em up and give em to a voracious herbivore, like goldfishes. They will eat every one they can get in their greedy mouths.

The other option for floaters is anacharis, just make sure you get Egeria densa Planchon, its the only tropical species in this group. All the rest, of the Elodea family, are actually subtropical (think goldfish cool water) and will eventually die in a tropical tank like African or SA cichlids.

BOTH plants are often listed as pest aquatics in many states, some of which have even gone as far as banning them in their borders. So, check your area's laws and be careful how ye dispose of them.

Oh, btw, the excess plants, when dried out makes good fertilizers for yer garden.

-Lance


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## Ollie (Sep 22, 2009)

calebjimz said:


> thanks for all the feedback. What i initially wanted when i was setting this up is a lot of plants! so i guess high tech was what i was going for, but i guess i didnt read enough. I didnt anticipate algae being such a problem, so what i was planning to do now is to create an algae scrubber, take out the algae thats in the tank, and then start fresh. I will be investing in a co2 system, but my only concern is that with a spray bar, will all the co2 be expelled once it reaches the spray bar? let me know what you guys think about these ideas


As long as the sprarybar is underwater it will present no issues with co2, if your using an external filter an inline atomiser and a well positioned spraybar will provide very good co2 distribution.
Holes and yellowing leaves are signs of nutrient deficiency, probably potassium http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/deficiencies.htm
Hope this helps
Ollie


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