# Automatic drip water change system



## jw85 (Dec 24, 2013)

Hi all,

I'd like your feedback on my planned automatic water change system. I'm planning to build this in my basement. I would also likely need a constant drip doser of prime as a backup to the R/O unit.

My goal is something approaching fail proof with the only maintenance being changing filter socks every 3 days. Both tanks in the plans are pre-drilled. This won't be my first DIY sump, I've got a good place in town I can get glass cut.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Nice drawing!!

The drip system will be adding only R/O water to the system, correct? If so, do you plan on adding buffers back to the tanks and if so, how?

Why not add the drip to each tank separately in case one tank would require more daily water change than the other one?

Are you planning on adding a solenoid to the drip system or will you be dripping 24/7?

Will you be adding a doser pump for the Prime conditioner and will it even be needed due to your water suppliers disinfection method?

Why do you have an emergency overflow reservoir for the emergency drains instead of just returning them to the sump?

Will the 55G sump be large enough to handle both tanks comfortably? Which return pumps are you planning on using?

Sorry for the additional questions but it should be helpful to figure out the best and easiest way to accomplish what you are trying to do.


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## jw85 (Dec 24, 2013)

No worries, I love the questions. Thank you.

Not planned any buffers - I have some rock in the Hap tank but that's it. Would they be needed?

Since both systems share the entire filtration system and body of water, I figured it wouldn't make a difference where the drip was located.

No solenoid, planning 24/7 for consistency.

From what I've read, the R/O units can slowly lose effectiveness between changing the filters, so I think a small doser for Prime would be good in case something sneaks through. What do you think?

My thoughts on the overflow reservoir is that it provides a visual queue that something is drastically wrong - most likely that somehow a fish would have wound up in one of the drains. I have no plants, so there isn't technically anything that would clog one of the main drains. My other thought was being concerned about over using my floor drain.

It had crossed my mind to add a lever at the top of the sump and in the reservoir to kill the system in the event that the water makes it there, and then have the tanks rely on powerheads for circulation until I notice.

I do believe 55 will be big enough - I've learned a ton about filter socks and how to use sumps effectively over the last few years. That setup has right around 10 gallons of bio balls in it, along with mechanical filtration with no overflow.

And ... big pumps. I'd need to buy them. Ha. I'd look for ~600 gph for the 90 gallon and 900 gph for the 125, in terms of actual circulation and not just what is on the lable.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Have you tested your tap water for pH, GH (hardness) and KH (alkalinity), if so, please post the results. Unless your water is absolutely horrible and you keep certain fish species, I don't see a reason to invest in and use an R/O unit for an aquarium. Many saltwater enthusiasts do use an R/O unit to top off the water in their tanks but it is usually not common in fresh water tanks.

Also, if you do have hard water, this can cause premature clogging of the R/O membrane and require more frequent cleaning of the unit and membrane replacement.

Do you know if your local water company uses chlorine or chloramine as a disinfectant? You can usually check their website for this information.

As far as the pumps you will be buying, be sure to size your overflow and returns correctly to avoid 'starving' the pumps of water, especially once the media bags start to plug up.

Using strainers or screens on the overflows would reduce the chance of a fish getting stuck in the piping between the tank and the sump. I don't see a need to have a secondary emergency overflow tank/reservoir.


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## somebody (May 13, 2014)

Instead of running 24/7 just run on demand. It will save you from worrying about dosing correct amounts of prime and other buffers and save you money on a dosing system.

Like deeda said ro is really not as benificial for fresh water as it is for salt. Unless you have unusually bad water params. Still even then it's more of a headache than what it's worth. Ro will bring tds down to <10ppm salts and the di brings it down to 0. This also causes hard water to acidify to a neutral ph, this one more buffer you have to add.

In your drawing, which is fantastic btw, I like the redundancy but I feel this may be too redundant. Why have emergency for your emergency?? I get to be sure but this isn't science rocket and the emergency overfill on the sump will more than suffice being as you have two drains in the system. If they are 1 inch you are looking at a lot of flow. If you want to stick with the overflow reservoir why not add a drain to that too amd do without the ones on the tank. Make sure to find a way to siphon break your return lines


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## Granamyr (Dec 16, 2015)

Looks like a very cool system. I'm curious how are you going to handle the different water needs though of Oscars vs the Haps? The whole system being tied together is going to mean one water type. I'm sure the Oscars can handle the African water parameters but I doubt it's ideal for them right?

Looks like a really cool set up though. Good luck with it.


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## jw85 (Dec 24, 2013)

Thank you everyone for the replies and help.

Some very quick backstory - I've had my Hap tank for almost 4 years now, and my Oscar for almost 2 years. My wife and I are closing our new house on 3/18 and I have to figure out a way to reduce my maintenance. As my career is getting more involved, and our son is getting to an age where he has activities 4 nights a week, my wife is currently going back to school full time and once she is done I'll be working on my masters full time (in addition to crazy workloads)... I just can't keep up with my tanks. Which brings me to two options: sell the fish, or figure out a way to have the tanks take care of themselves. Almost all of the fish I've tried to sell locally have ended up dying in poor care. Some of these guys I've had for years I just can't bring myself to get rid of because I feel like I'm just taking them to their doom.

I'm working on a new drawing that feeds the emergencies to the sump instead of a reservoir. My thought is that, even though the drains come on a pre-drilled tank and are behind a plastic corner overflow, and nothing should physically be able to get in, the peace of mind of knowing there is less chance I ruin my new finished basement is worth it. I think the only thing that will make them clog is years of gunk build up, but man would that suck to happen and not have the backups.

I haven't moved into the new house yet so I can't test the water (its in a neighboring city), but here's the summary of the local report (I'm assuming all is expressed in PPM, but it doesn't specify that):
Barium: 0.11 PPM
Fluoride: 0.93 PPM
Iron: 0.039 PPM
*Nitrate: 2 PPM*
Sodium: 11 PPM
Copper: 0.078 PPM
Lead: 2.1 PPM
*Chloramine: 3.5 PPM*
Total Haloacetic Acids: 33 PPM
Total Trihalomethane: 46 PPM
Atrazine: 0.4 PPM

My questions / answers to specific responses:
1. Would programming a system to run on demand or on scheduled intervals be "easier"? I feel like I'd need more equipment to do that. If I have it run on demand, ideally all I'd want to do is hit a button, but then I have to worry about the water temps not matching.

2. Based on the water that will be coming out of my tap, what do you think is "better": the RO idea I originally had plus figuring out how to add in needed buffers, or using straight "from the tap" and dosing more Prime? I'm not worried about buying a dosing system, as long as it works. I'm getting the feeling that straight tap plus constant doser might be easier than worrying about buffers to the RO water.

3. Both tanks have been running on the same tap water for their existence, and regardless of a shared filtration system would run on the same tap water in our new house. I don't do anything to buffer them or modify the parameters, and both tanks run at 80 degrees (I can't get my hap tank colder because of the heat generated by the pumps in my current sump).


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## Opulent (Jan 20, 2012)

jw85 said:


> I'm working on a new drawing that feeds the emergencies to the sump instead of a reservoir. My thought is that, even though the drains come on a pre-drilled tank and are behind a plastic corner overflow, and nothing should physically be able to get in, the peace of mind of knowing there is less chance I ruin my new finished basement is worth it. I think the only thing that will make them clog is years of gunk build up, but man would that suck to happen and not have the backups.


Glad you've taken that choice - as Deeda questioned it early on, there was a fundamental flaw in that design; the emergency overflow should *always* flow into the sump. If it didn't, then the water going into the separate reservoir will overfill soon enough as the water is not being pumped back into the display tank. Also, the sump would empty pretty quickly and the pumps would run dry.


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## Fish Jerk (Mar 9, 2016)

Very cool work. I have been considering something similar to make sure my shrimpies have a very stable environment. If I ever keep something like discus or rams then I will probably do something similar as well.

1. It looks like you drilled the bottom of the tanks which I would not do. If get get a leak on your seal then that's it both your tanks are done, and there is more pressure the lower down you go.
2. You shouldn't ever need to use any prime unless you are changing out a large amount of water. If it's daily changes of water then I would make it 5% per day or less. 
3. RO is an intriguing idea I have been considering, but I am not sure I'd use it like that. You really don't need RO on your tap water unless you do big changes of water and/or have water issues to ameliorate. OTOH I considered using RO on the tank water directly at a small but steady rate. That might clog up the filter fairly quickly though, but maybe not if you are processing relatively small amounts per day. In both cases you might eventually need to put some salt and calcium carbonate in the tanks to make up for it - in general a low ph tank is a lot less hassle though anyway, and in spite of coming from somewhat high ph areas africans seem to do fine without high ph. High PH also leads to more ammonia toxicity as well.


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## Cursor (Jan 4, 2005)

You can do the drip water changes without the RO and still handle the Chlormine. Check out the Filter Guyz website and you will find info on which filters to use. If you just use a flow regulator and a sediment filter with 2 chloramine filter blocks you will strip the chlorine and chloramine while leaving the minerals in the water. Also, you will not have the maintenance of an RO membrane. If you call the Filter Guyz they can walk you through what's best for you. If I had to build your system I would not do an RO membrane.

In my system I do not have to deal with Chroramines, so I just have a 5 micron sediment filter, 1 micron sediment filter and 2 chlorine guzzlers cartridges on constant drop using drip emitters into my sump. The sump overflows to the flow drain. I never do water changes and with decent water flow and water movement in the tanks I rarely need to vacuum them. All I have to do is change the filter socks when they get dirty.

I also do hydronic water heating for my system instead of using electric heaters. Since I have a gas water heater it ends up being far cheaper.


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## SrsSarcasM (Jan 28, 2016)

Without chloramine in your system, why treat for chlorine at all?

Chlorine naturally gasses off within 24 hours, less in a well oxygenated tank. Provided your volume is not tiny and your water change amount per day is not high, chlorine levels will never build up to toxic levels.

I came to this conclusion myself and did research and found general agreement including from Frank Mueller.


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## Fish Jerk (Mar 9, 2016)

I stopped using the anti-chlorine a long time ago and I have chloramine in my water. So long as it's 50% or less and you have good oxygenation it will not matter.

What happens is first the chlorine gasses out and then the chloramine turns to chlorine, which also gasses out. So chloramine is not any worse in that respect.

As for toxicity, if it were toxic then it would kill you from drinking it. It's not even at close to toxic levels in drinking water.

Why it affects fish is actually not understood by science, but when it's accidentally happened in the past to me in 100% changes on smaller tanks, it seems to work the same way as lack of oxygen. It must somehow inhibit oxygen uptake. So as long as your oxygen levels are good it will be too low of concentration to affect anything. Especially with 5% daily water changes.

Since I stopped using prime I also stopped having problems when I do water changes. Now when I do a water change it's like nothing happened - fish are perfectly happy from day 1.


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## Narwhal72 (Sep 26, 2006)

> As for toxicity, if it were toxic then it would kill you from drinking it. It's not even at close to toxic levels in drinking water.


Toxic to humans is not the same as toxic to fish.



> Why it affects fish is actually not understood by science


Not true. The biological effects are well understood by science. Chlorine forms hypochorous acid which penetrates cells and disrupts enzymes causing acute necrosis in gill tissues. (Merkens, 1958, Eren and Langer, 1973, Moore, 1951)

Because of its wide use in water treatment and toxic effects there are numerous studies of the toxicological effects on the environment. (White, 1972, Heath 1977, Mattice and Zittel 1976, Brungs 1978, etc...)

However, I do agree with you that as long as you keep the volume of water changes low it should not be a factor requiring dechlorination. The levels in tap water are already low, and will be further diluted in the aquarium. An established biological filter will be able to handle the additional ammonia from the chloramine without any issue and the residual chlorine will gas off.

Andy


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## Geohvl (Feb 27, 2017)

I have a drip system on my 55 that runs off my deep water well. My tank has a one inch stand pipe that enters the bottom through a bulkhead fitting. The pipe then stands to top uppermost water level. Down about 1 inch I have drilled 6 5/16ths holes to set the maximum water level which at this point is 1-3/4" down from the 'top of the tank. From the outside of the bulkhead I have a 1" pipe that runs to a drain in my basement which I have drilled a 1-1/4" hole through my main floor into the basement. It then drains into my deep sink. 
The drip system has a 20# pressure reducer into timed water controller. There is a 1/8" barb with drip tubing that runs back up through the hole in the floor back to the top on my tank. At the end of tubing I have a adjustable dripper set at ~ 2g/Hr. It runs 5 hours a day 7 days. Which is about 225g/month water exchange. I am new to this site have not ever been on a forum. So far so good. I have read a lot and found that there are some who don't like or believe in the drip system for the life of me I don't understand. I have not done a water change in over 3 years and it is great. If you're on treated water not sure how to handle that. 
George


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## Narwhal72 (Sep 26, 2006)

Thank you for the very detailed description of your water change system. That's very helpful to those who want to setup their own system. Providing specifics is great for figuring out problems.

I don't do automated water change systems myself but several of my friends do. For me the problem is two fold.

1. I need to siphon solid waste out of the bottom of my tanks on a regular basis. I keep a lot of wood eating plecos that just poop a lot so that just is something that cannot be automated.
2. Because you are mixing new and old water in the same vessel the rate of exchange is not the same as a manual water change. The equation for determining turnover rate in a mixed water vessel is T=9.2(v/g) where T= the number of hours it takes to turn the volume of the aquarium over one time (one complete exchange), 9.2 is the purity coefficient (99.999% of the tank volume), g= the flow rate in gallons per hour, and v= the volume of the aquarium in gallons.

If we were to use your setup as an example T=9.2(55/2) where T would then equal 253. Running for 5 hours a day it would take 50.6 days to exchange the volume of the aquarium one time. In 30 days you are changing a little more than half (60%) the volume of the aquarium. Equivalent to basically one 60% water change in terms of water exchanged but using 225 gallons to do it.

Of course the real benefit to continuous water changes is that there is a small dilution factor daily. This prevents the sudden swings in water chemistry before and after a water change. I think this is a real benefit to fish who don't like sudden changes (Lake dwelling cichlids for one) so there is nothing wrong about it. And not having to do manual water changes is certainly a time saver.

Andy


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## garymach (Mar 30, 2017)

Loved the diagram! I am in the early stages of setting up an aquarium system similar to this in my home. I see that it has been almost a year since your post. Have you changed anything from your original design? What worked and what didn't? Thanks in advance for your feedback.


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