# cycle mystery



## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

Hereâ€™s a mystery for everybody to figure out, I am at my witâ€™s end. 
My neighbor got a 20gal tall about a month ago. 
Cleaned everything with vinegar, rinsed beyond well. 
Running 2 HOB filters on it. One rated 20-30 gal and another rated @10 gal. 
3 days after adding 6 red eyed tetras to cycle, I gave him a cup full of gravel out of my established tank (my water levels are perfect). I also gave him one of my use cartridges to help speed up the process. 
Checking water ever sinceâ€¦.I am making sure he is not overfeeding, only once a day and very little. 
Hereâ€™s the mysteryâ€¦..
Week one- Ammonia 0.50
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5.0

Week two Ammonia 8.0 (yikesâ€¦happy fish though, nothing died)
Nitrite 1.0
Nitrate 5.0

Ok, so I thoughâ€¦â€¦cool we are on our way and you should be done within 2 more weeks. 
Week three Ammonia 1.0
Nitrite 0.25
Nitrate 0.0
Looking good so far 
Week four Ammonia 8.0 (??? Still nothing dead)
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 0.0
Heâ€™s been refilling evaporated water as needed, used dechlorinator in it. He was also gone for 3 days, I had hime take to food so wife could not feed, expected some sort of drop in the ammonia, but nothing. I tested his tapwater, which was @ 0 all the way around??? Nobody sprayed windex around the tank.???

I need help I donâ€™t know what to tell the poor guy. Should we try some biospiva? Any other suggestions would be welcomed. I cycled all of my tanks without water changes in-between and always used established media, so I really donâ€™t know what is going on?

Here is a far fetched thought, he does have a lot of animals in the house and due to that, there is a certain odor in the airâ€¦.can ammonia transfer through air???
:-?


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## bulldogg7 (Mar 3, 2003)

strips or liquid tests?
just wondering if test strips might pick up ammonia in the air
http://www.qasupplies.com/2006003.html


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## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

Liquid and I test them @ my housee. i know they are correct, because I test my water with the same kit and all is well.


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

The gravel and cartridge you gave must have not been enough to cycle the tank all the way.
It may need more to help the cycle complete.
What I don't understand is where did the nitrate go?
It started at 5 and disappeared to 0, it should be accumulating to higher levels not going to 0.

There weren't any water changes done correct?
What happened there?
Make sure you are following directions on all of the tests, they require vigorous shaking and wait time to accurately evaluate the results.
Re-test and post back.


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## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

Hey smellyfish...good to see you. 
No waterchanges, not clue where the nirates went????
Just re-tested, used all tests as instructed. 
Amonia still off the charts @ 8.0, no Nitrites or Nitrates


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## vaypourus (May 20, 2008)

Nitrates just don't disappear....

Is he running carbon in his HOBs?

Did your neighbor add anything to the tank that could have killed off some bacteria? It looks by those numbers that the tank has not cycled.


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## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

Yes to the carbon and he swears up and down he did not add anything


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## vaypourus (May 20, 2008)

I have read that carbon can get rid of some nitrate in a tank. I question the testing equipment...the way the numbers jump around doesn't make sense.

I can't say that I have an answer for you. It looks like that tank is doing a reverse cycle, as if bacteria was dying off.


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## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

See, I would agree with faulty testing equipment, however....I tes all of my tanks once a week and my tests show none of the above, except a bit of Nitrates. 
Should we try some bio spiva?


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## thevein (May 10, 2006)

hey guys, jus reading and wanted to offer an opinion. bio-spira is a tab expensive and I don't think he really needs to go there just yet. i had a recent ammonia spike with a move while setting up 5 different tanks. i've been in the hobby for 20 years and keeping africans for 10. I do agree that the tank does not have enough bacteria that is mature and colonizing to help the process. Here's what I had to do with the "mini cycle" i was having and what can prob help out in his situation.

Jungle Labs makes a product called "Ammonia Clear", get it at walmart, 8 disolving tabs for like $3, ea tab treats 10gal. Get at least 3 boxes as it's great to have this product on hand for emergencies. Now, while we dont want to completely rid the tank of ammonia as it's necessary for the cycle, let's bring it down a notch to get the conversion to NITRITE with the eventual goal of NITRATE which you guys know can be removed with a water change.

I would start with a "HALF" dose of what's recommended(20 gal tank) so 1 tab instead of 2 then check the tank in 6 or 8 hrs. If the ammonia is still off the chart, add another tab and wait another 6 or 8hrs. (repeat if necessary) When it finally starts to come down, you should see a nice spike in nitrite, then you'll know you're on the right path. I went through this exact same thing and this process worked for me........a bit tedious but very effective in the end to stabilize my tank. good luck


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## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

K, where I am usually not one to run for chemicals, I have no better idea and since you went through the same thing it's worth a try. I'll have him run by wal mart later. 
thank you !!!


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## vaypourus (May 20, 2008)

You should stop by a local LFS instead.

Walmart has degraded many things, including the fish keeping industry


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

If something's killing off the bacteria, it'll kill off the bacteria in bio-spira as well. It's the same bacteria. The test results are typical of something killing it off.

Are you sure he's not cleaning the filters?

Yes, ammonia can get absorbed into the tank from the air, but I doubt that's the cause of the spikes. There'd have to be a strong ammonia smell in the house, not animal smell.

I wouldn't give any thought to the 'missing' nitrate. The ammonia spike is the issue, and the nitrate test results are meaningless while nitrites are in the tank.

Only other thing I've ever heard of causing this is from used tanks that housed reptiles, etc. or resealed tanks where the wrong sealant was used. Was the tank new when he got it?

I'm guessing week 2 and week 4 he cleaned the filters. Sometimes they don't tell you unless you specifically ask. I've been here before too when trying to help newcomers.


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## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

no, he did not clean the filters, nor have we done any waterchanges. He did buy the tank used, so we might be onto something there prov. 
He told me he did everything I told him to do, since all my tanks at home are in perfect harmony. So no to the filter change.

You have me wondering about the sealant though. :-?


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## Dj823cichild (Mar 30, 2009)

another thing to clear up it's Bio SpiRa not SpiVa


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## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

oh let me be blonde and bask in my stupidity


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> He did buy the tank used, so we might be onto something there prov.


I'd look down that road then. If it turns out to be the likely source, resealing is an option, but what a hassle and a disappointment to someone starting out. Your gravel seeding should have been as effective as any bacterial starter product, so I don't think I'd spend the money that way. If the tank is suspect, then I'd just put my money into another 20 gallon.


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## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

I have a 23 gal sitting empty, I might just give hime that one to try again and then we'll know if it was the tank. Thank you


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## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

Update!!! opcorn: Still in original tank 
The Nitrates are back!!!!
Todays reading- Ammonia 8.0 
Nitites 0
Nitrates 10-20 I'd call is 15 if there would be such thing

I am just wondering why Nitrates before Nitrites?
There might be hope after all???


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

What is up with the ammonia at 8.0?
This is so strange.
Where are the nitrites?
Nitrates back again?
:-?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

The readings are very erratic, and not normal for a normally cycling tank at all. Just seems like they're on a roller coaster ride. Not predictable or steady, so it's hard to say what direction things are going. Maybe they'll level out, but hard to predict with this one. If ammonia and nitrite were 0, with nitrate rising, then I'd be more hopeful. 8ppm of ammonia seems like an external source of ammonia that's not from the fish.


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

Have any fish died yet?
That level ammonia for that length of time seems lethal.

Do a water change of 50% and test.
I would like to know what it reads the following day as well.


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## overleaf (Jan 18, 2009)

Depending on the pH that ammonia might not be lethal.

I'm going to come at this from a different angle:

Some of the bacteria in the seeded media you gave him likely died due to the lack of sufficient ammonia/nitrites for the bacteria to feed on. If that is true then the tank has been running with a small immature bacteria colony.

You might ask: But why after 4-5 weeks are things still so crazy? I have a theory....

Nitrosomonas and nitrobacter are the bacteria colonies you're trying to establish. Both of them are inhibited at high ammonia levels, some say as low as 6-8ppm with definite issues past 10ppm. Most kits stop at 8ppm.

You *must* perform water changes during the cycling process or control (fishless) the amount of ammonia you add (with fish, this is impossible!). Some people say that this delays the cycling process. In my experience it does not as you only decrease the ammonia during water changes and don't eliminate it completely. That plus the fact that high ammonia inihibits the development of those bacteria's.... you should perform some water changes.

I would perform several water changes to get the ammonia under 4ppm. Then monitor for several days and continue with the water changes... within a couple of weeks you should see things stabilize.


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## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

Ok, general consent seems to be a 50% water change. 
Will test water first when I get home and the retest after water change and again Wed. :thumb:

I sure am glad I never had trouble like that with mine or I would have given up. 
All fish are alive and seem not to be distressed in any way, they are all over the place and eat (I had my neighbor put them on a once every other day diet) :fish:


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Overleaf touched on something with the pH. I'd be curious to know the pH and KH of the tank and tap water. Any chance the pH is very low?


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## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

Last time I checked the Ph it was in the upper 7's might have even brushed close to 8. 
What do you think about the waterchange Tim?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

mncherie1 said:


> Last time I checked the Ph it was in the upper 7's might have even brushed close to 8.
> What do you think about the waterchange Tim?


Normally, I'd be doing water changes to keep the fish alive, but they don't seem stressed. This is the kind of tank that I really wish I could get my hands on. I'd be testing and changing water trying to nail down the source of the ammonia. At 8ppm, you should have very stressed or dead fish. Something is just strange, and I feel like it should be obvious, but without being able to get in front of it, it's hard to say for sure what's going on. The reason I asked about the pH is because if it was very low, then that would explain both the unstressed fish and the lack of progress with biofiltration. At low pH ammonia is much less toxic and it also inhibits biofiltration. But seems that's not an issue either.

I think I'd be tempted to monitor this thing without making any changes at all that might inadvertently trigger a setback to see if would stabilize. But that means keeping a diligent eye on the fish. I know you've checked the test kit, but the results just don't seem valid. Ammonia just doesn't bounce from 8 to 0 and back again without any effect on the fish. If it's 'free' ammonia, it's toxic at much lower levels.

I'm running out of ideas for you, sorry.  I think I'd also be double checking the kits and vials to rule out any contamination that might be giving a false reading. I'd even be getting a second kit just to know for certain that the test was accurate. Next, maybe do a water change to see what the effect is, whether good or bad. Remove any questionable decor, like driftwood, etc. I'd be trying to find what triggered that 8ppm reading and using process of elimination to zero in on the source. I'd be afraid that unless found, it'd rear it's ugly head again down the road.

Ok, one more wild idea came to me. Is there any possibility that's he's shutting down filters at night? I've heard of it happening.


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## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

Not sure about the filters, but that is one I haven't asked yet. 
I can guarantee 100% that it is not the test kits, I just tested my 29 gal with them yesterday and all was fine (0), trace of Nitrates ( I never show much since I change my water 25% biweekly)

Here is what I am thinking....pull all decors out (it is aquarium safe, I used it before and he cleaned it before putting it in his tank), perform 50% water change

Also, another thing I considered....what if we remove 3 of the fish, therefore lowering the ammonia production??? Might that help?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I'd pull the decor and do the water change. If that doesn't help, then pull most of the fish next. As much for their well being as anything. Leave a couple only, if possible, and when things square away gradually add them back.


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## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

Thank you Tim.. I'll keep everybody posted.
Update tonight when I get home.


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## overleaf (Jan 18, 2009)

I dug up my old Hagen book just to see what the safe limits on unionized ammonia (nh3). This is the table they have on the back:










As per that chart, with a pH of 7 you're just creeping into danger territory with a reading of 8ppm. That's not to say that the fish are 100% safe... it's just not critical. Prolonged exposure would obviously be very dangerous for the fish, but this could explain why the fish are just hanging in there showing no effects.

Regardless, I'd use some ammo lock to turn some of the free ammonia into the safer nh4.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Here's an online calculator for free ammonia. She reported that pH is actually upper 7's or maybe 8. That chart is way off from anything I've ever seen. Seems to me that 7.3ppm total ammonia is going to give you a lot more than .04ppm free at a pH of 7. Temp also comes into play, although not as much as pH, and the chart doesn't even consider it. Even what they consider safe and dangerous is debatable and can vary by fish although over .1ppm is probably a good general guideline, I guess.


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## overleaf (Jan 18, 2009)

Prov,

I pulled it right from Hagen's site, I had to check the printed copy I have from the Master Tester kit to believe what I was seeing:

http://www.hagen.com/img/aquatic/addinf ... -chart.jpg

I would tend to agree with you that it seems wrong, but it is in print online and in the master tester kit.


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## mattstevens (Jun 17, 2009)

So, I'm a little bit boozed right now and have had a quick read over this. Please disregard if my comment is inaccurate. And considering I have been at this hobby for about 3 weeks, there's a great chance I'm wrong.... maybe just read on anyway as food for thought.

In my limited experience, I have found product like stress zyme, and cycle to significantly, and quickly lower the ammonia levels (in my new tank from 4ppm to 0 in less then 24 hours - given that about 20 hours was the time between tests, it is entirely possible that it was much less then time then this).

I am unfamiliar with bio spira, but is it possible that if your friend is introducing bio spira into the tank - and taking into consideration that this product is more considered to be more effective then the products I have been using... that the bacteria in this, is in fact converting quickly, the ammonia to nitrites, and then to nitrates before dieing off as a result of some sort of contaminant in the tank? Therefore meaning that your levels of ammonia and nitrite would drop significantly before the tank had the chance to kill off the bacteria, and then once done so, ammonia would raise again.... and your nitrites would stay at zero with no bacteria to convert ammonia. Anddddd.... the residual nitrates are showing up in your water?

Anddddd....... the reason the nitrates diminished at the start, could be a result of the carbon as previously mentioned.

Sorry that was a ramble. But it can't hurt to put it out there.


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## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

Ok update and a WOW you are brilliant to TIM!!! :thumb: 
Rechecked all yesterday, including the Ph again, which I did not test since its first reading. Ph had dropped to 6.4??? Yet another mystery, ammonia still of the charts and the Nitrates came up to 20, no Nitrites whatsoever. 
One of the little critters also lost the battle. Asked him to do a 50% water change and will retest tonight. I am also taking some Ph up home with me, I had some @ the office and after retesting, I might gradually add some of that. Let's see if that'll fix it.


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

I would not raise the pH while the ammonia is high.
In this case the low pH is actually a good thing since it is actually in a less toxic form of ammonium.
If you can completely remove all of the ammonia with a few water changes I would like to see how fast they come back.
Worry about the pH after everything is under control.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I would not raise the pH while the ammonia is high.


Agreed, but there's a fine line to walk. If pH drops significantly, nitrifying bacteria will be inhibited, so cycling is also. If pH is raised, ammonia becomes more toxic.

I also would avoid the pH up or pH down products. Better to raise the alkalinity, buffers, KH, or whatever you want to call it, if needed. I'd ignore the pH myself and look at the KH. If the KH reading is low, I'd bump it just a tad, but not some much as to significantly raise the pH, just enough to stabilize. Meaning if it's near 0, then bump it to 3 or 4. But, like I said, it's a fine line. Use sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). pH up is usually sodium carbonate. Those products don't stabilize pH, and can cause great swings.

If fish are starting to fall, then that's not a good sign. These ammonia spikes indicate an anomaly of some sort. I'd be tempted to start with a new, clean, no substrate, bare minimum tank. Cycle it with a couple of fish, and re-home the rest until cycled. There's got to be something with the tank.



> I am unfamiliar with bio spira, but is it possible that if your friend is introducing bio spira into the tank - and taking into consideration that this product is more considered to be more effective then the products I have been using... that the bacteria in this, is in fact converting quickly, the ammonia to nitrites, and then to nitrates before dieing off as a result of some sort of contaminant in the tank? Therefore meaning that your levels of ammonia and nitrite would drop significantly before the tank had the chance to kill off the bacteria, and then once done so, ammonia would raise again.... and your nitrites would stay at zero with no bacteria to convert ammonia. Anddddd.... the residual nitrates are showing up in your water?


Interesting idea and theoretically very possible. Also points to a problem with the tank itself.


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## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

Have not used the Bio SpiRa yet, just a thought that crossed my mind. I am curious to see how the tests are tonight. I hope this post will be of help to someody else with problems, because we went thourgh about every scenario at this point. 
Thank you all for helping, he appreciates it greatly. =D>


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## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

ok, so here we are. Tested his water after yesterdays change
Ph 7.2
Ammonia 4
Nitrites 0 (I don't think they like his tank :lol: )
Nirates 80 (wow, where did they all come from???) Was it due to the PH being higher?

I had him do another 50% waterchange and results were
Ph 7.2
Ammonia 1
Nirites, well take a guess 0
Nitrates 40

He said his fish seem more stressed now than before, so I am taking 3 of the 5 remaining ones and putting the in my Angel tank. Red Eyes tetras should be ok with small angles, shouldn't they?


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

I am guessing we have a case of the tap water being soft.
But wait, was the pH up added or did water changes alone bring up the pH?

It would make sense that the tank inhabitants are now stressed due to the ammonia no longer being in the form of ammonium.
The pH increase is what did it so you should detoxify it with prime or some other detox product along with another water change.


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## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

Water changes brought the Ph up, I have not had him add any chemicals yet. Tap water tests @ 7.6 straight out of the tap. 
How much of a water change do you think? 25%?
Should we try some ammolock?


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

I would do 50% daily and use the ammolock with it.
It shouldn't take more than 1 or 2 wc's to get things down to acceptable levels, both ammonia and nitrate.
The dechlor is important here so make sure it does this.

By the way, the pH won't crash if you are changing water often.
Problems will arise when the system is cycled and water changes will be less frequent.
The KH is an issue that needs to be addressed because as of now the water isn't hard enough to maintain a stable pH.


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## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

Ok, I did not get a chance to check water yesteday, but I had him do a 25%change, just in case, since nitrates were so high the day before. 
Should he worry about the lack of nitrites, does that mean that he will always have problems with the tank since it seems that the cycle was never completed?


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

The only way to know if the cycle is complete is to add fish or ammonia and see if it is converted.
If you continue to see rising nitrates, fair to say it is cycled.
But if the ammonia remains unconverted and/or you have nitrite it isn't cycled yet.


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## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

Update****
Ammonia gone......finally a 0 reading. 
Nitrites 0 as always 
Nitrates between 20-40

I'll keep an eye on everything and am hoping that we can slowly start to reintroduce the fish I am babysitting. 
Thank you for everybody's help and concern!!! You guys rock :thumb:


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## mattstevens (Jun 17, 2009)

Sounds promising. Best of luck. Keep us posted.


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## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

Checked again today and still no ammonia, Nitrates were still high. Had him do a 50% water change today and another 25% tomorrow. 
Now of course the lill critters came down with ich....no wonder with all the sress. I am having him treat with salt (API) and higher temps. 
What a nightmare :lol:


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