# yellow labs without the black



## J&amp;DGuy (Feb 12, 2007)

Hey guys, I have some yellow labs that are getting close to 2". They are all from the same batch and most have the black in their fins, however there are a few that have NO yellow at all in any of their fins. The parents bred in a 40 gallon breeder tank with ONLY yellow labs in the tank. I am just wondering if this is normal at all or if they are ever going to get their black in their fins. They are still pretty fish, I just don't want to breed them if this is going to be a genetic defect. I will just pull them out and put them in the community tank. Just curious if anyone else has had this issue. Also, just to mention this as well. I had 1 male and 2 females in the breeder and they all 3 had their black in the fins so I am not sure that this is permanent. Also I am not sure, is the black in the fins at all related to dominance?


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

The amount of black can be linked with dominance. If any two of them get mad at each other look at their colors, if they are trying to determine who is the big fish they will both be at their best. My labs black tones down some when stressed. I dont know about altogether not having any visible though. Do you have another tank that you can experiment with and pull those out to put in there temporarily to see if its just stress?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

There are a large number of hybrid Labs in the hobby. Sometimes they look a little more like Labs, sometimes a little less. I would suggest posting pictures of both the parents, and their fry for verification.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

I have a confirmed F2 breeding group of 12 fish. Not certain of the male/female ratio but depending on the pecking order, they can display very strong yellow with black fins to those with very little black to nearly no black at all..

I don't think you can say with absolute certainty that the amount of black as a indicator of them being "pure", full blooded, 100% Lab, etc..


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## Super Turtleman (May 21, 2007)

cantrell00 said:


> I don't think you can say with absolute certainty that the amount of black as a indicator of them being "pure", full blooded, 100% Lab, etc..


Therein lies the problem. If you're not sure you have to assume it's a hybrid for breeding/distribution purposes. So if your breeders are putting out possible hybrids, you have to assume the breeders could be hybrids themselves...even if they look and act like true Yellow Labs. Did you get them from a reputable breeder?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't think it is the amount of black so much as if there is NO black...even supressed black. When they have it turned off, it can just look like a darker yellow shadow.

That said...I'd rather have labs that keep at least the dorsal turned on most of the time. The black in the other fins of my labs comes and goes a little more with dominance.

Even my week old fry, the dominant ones have black in their lower fins as well as the dorsal.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

DJRansome said:


> I don't think it is the amount of black so much as if there is NO black...even supressed black. When they have it turned off, it can just look like a darker yellow shadow.
> 
> That said...I'd rather have labs that keep at least the dorsal turned on most of the time. The black in the other fins of my labs comes and goes a little more with dominance.
> 
> Even my week old fry, the dominant ones have black in their lower fins as well as the dorsal.


Even in these fish, the black can be muted to the point of being very faint.. No black at all in absolute terms? No. Very difficult to see? Yes.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Super Turtleman said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think you can say with absolute certainty that the amount of black as a indicator of them being "pure", full blooded, 100% Lab, etc..
> ...


Cichlid-forum.com promotes them as a site sponsor. Let's all hope they are reputable.

How would you know if he/she/they were reputable? How do you validate it? Certificates of authenticity?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Reputation is more of a word-of-mouth thing IME. Conversations at fish events, etc. You hear the same feedback about vendors from many unrelated sources and you have the same types of experiences when ordering yourself.

Did we lose J&DGuy?


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## J&amp;DGuy (Feb 12, 2007)

No, I am still here. Just finishing up my work day! I will respond in more detail tonight after work. Thanks for the replies so far! You guys are all awesome for replying so quickly.


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## J&amp;DGuy (Feb 12, 2007)

Female









Male









Male









Fry with some black (small fry)









Fry with some black (larger but same batch)









Fry with no black showing (larger but still same batch)

I have about 12 or so fry all from the same batch. They are very different in size from largest to smallest which I am not overly concerned with. I just want to make sure of what I have before I sell them. I had a batch that was from the same 2 as I only have had the 1 female carry eggs long enough to strip. All of that batch had good black in the fry. I am just confused how it can change from one batch to the next.


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## J&amp;DGuy (Feb 12, 2007)

Also, the female is clearly holding again and I need to try get rid of some of the ones I have, if they are able to be sold. I will give them away as hybrids if that is what they are.


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## kpswd (Sep 13, 2011)

I have some very nice looking Yellow Lab that I have bred with some very strong black dorsal and pelvic fins on both my males and females, but for whatever reason, they don't color up (get black fins) until they are about 2". It is frustrating me to no end because the adults are beautiful, but I have to think that there is something in those bloodlines that is making them color up so slowly.

So right now, I have a group of 15 F1 growing out that is going to take their place eventually. There really is a pretty big difference in what they look like and the juvies that I have from my other "Yellow Lab". My adult labs are a bright yellow with really no hint of orange on them at all, really strong black stripes on the fins, so it is dissappointing/frustrating that the fry/juvie look like they do. Same problem as the other poster here. If it dosn't quack like a duck, or walk like a dusck, then more than likely it is not a duck...


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## Stussi613 (May 8, 2009)

I had a couple with muted black dorsal fins in my main tank. When I took them out because the were being beat up and put them in a divided 15g to hold until I could sell them they both colored right up. Aggression can cause them to really mute their colours, period.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

By the last picture, there is most likely a Red Zebra in the wood pile somewhere. I would not distribute fry from this group, period. Giving them away as hybrids doesn't really matter, since you cannot control where they go from there. I would keep them in my tanks or euthanize. After all, distributing them in any fashion just adds to the problem in the hobby.

This happened to me several years ago. I had a seemingly perfect group of yellow labs, breeding regularly. After quite some time, a batch of fry turned up without black on the dorsal. I actually have a thread on here somewhere with pics, but it was years ago. Disappointing...I certainly know the feeling.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

cichlidaholic said:


> By the last picture, there is most likely a Red Zebra in the wood pile somewhere. I would not distribute fry from this group, period. Giving them away as hybrids doesn't really matter, since you cannot control where they go from there. I would keep them in my tanks or euthanize. After all, distributing them in any fashion just adds to the problem in the hobby.
> 
> This happened to me several years ago. I had a seemingly perfect group of yellow labs, breeding regularly. After quite some time, a batch of fry turned up without black on the dorsal. I actually have a thread on here somewhere with pics, but it was years ago. Disappointing...I certainly know the feeling.


You cannot know this in absolute terms like you just proposed... Your experience, while of some value but of very small sample size also doesn't confirm it either.

And I will say again... You cannot make the determination by the lack of black pigmentation in the dorsal fin alone.. More variables at play & several examples have already been provided to cast doubt in this limited point of view. Sub dominance alone can create these same results in fish marketed by reputable breeders, cichlid-forum.com sponsors, of at least F2 generation.

Not sure what is gained by debating what is, is - is.. Or isn't. Even in the best of circumstances, there is now way to know - absolutely.


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## Grill88 (Mar 4, 2013)

I just ordered 8 Yellow Labs from a well reviewed site sponsor. One of the 8 I received looks exactly like the last picture posted with no black on any of the fins. All the others have black in varying amounts.

What about black coming in around the lips/throat area? I have one Lab, the largest of the group that gets this from time to time. I didn't know if that was just him getting fired up or intimidated. Almost looks like a 5 o'clock shadow lol


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

It's called bearding and not an indicator of purity, but also not a desirable trait. It will darken when the fish is intimidated or being aggressive.

I'd ask the vendor for a replacement on the fish with no black on the dorsal.


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## Grill88 (Mar 4, 2013)

Thanks DJ. I might have asked the vendor right after delivery, but its been over a month now since I've had the fish. Funny enough the Lab with the beard will darken at feeding time, he loves his food lol.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

We want real labs but only when they show the best "qualities" of their ancestry.

Bearding is normal. As a matter of fact, complete lack of bearding is the exception actually.


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## J&amp;DGuy (Feb 12, 2007)

so from a distribution stand point, would these be acceptable? i am guessing not...


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The one in the last pic, like cichlidaholic says, appears to have no black on the dorsal...not even a dark yellow shadow. So I would not distribute fry from those parents.


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## J&amp;DGuy (Feb 12, 2007)

I pulled that one from the last pic and put it in the 40 gallon breeder with its smaller siblings. I did that last night. Now today i looked in the 40 breeder and noticed that that same fish has black in its dorsal...it is not dark black at the moment, but just by moving it into a different tank where it is the largest fish, it is gaining black in the dorsal. i think I might need to wait this one out a few days to a week. I will try get another picture of the same fish this weekend and let you guys make another judgement.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

From what I've seen, and bred, fish with an absence of that much black are likely hybrids. If my strain through out fry like that, I'd probably get rid of them pretty quick, no matter who I bought them from, or what they claimed them to be.


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## J&amp;DGuy (Feb 12, 2007)

OK, can anyone PM me with a recommendation on where I can get good labs from? If I am going to keep fish and they are going to breed, I would like to be able to sell them because people around here will buy them. I do not want to spread the hybrid issue even further across the hobby.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Actually, cantrell00, it is fairly safe to assume that the OP was concerned about the lack of black pigmentation since they made the post and inquired about it. For _serious_ hobbyist, it is a valid concern. A _serious_ hobbyist errs on the side of caution.

Pictures were posted, opinions were given by very experienced hobbyist.

IME, there lies proof that even a seemingly perfect group if yellow labs can be deceiving.

No debate here, just a valid question and sound advice and the opinions of experienced cichlid keepers.

To the OP, I hope you will follow up on this with more pictures, but again, you should be able to distinguish black on the dorsal at all times, and none can be seen in the pic you provided. I would do as Fogelhund suggested - get rid of this group if you bought them all at once and start all over if you want to breed yellow labs for distribution! Good luck!


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

cantrell00 said:


> We want real labs but only when they show the best "qualities" of their ancestry.
> 
> Bearding is normal. As a matter of fact, complete lack of bearding is the exception actually.


Yes, quality is important. When quality becomes unimportant, you wind up with threads like this.

Bearding is NOT "normal ". It is an undesireable trait cultivated by years of non - selective breeding. A nice quality yellow lab does not show bearding, any more than a stressed yellow lab loses black pigmentation entirely. :thumb:


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## jcabage (May 29, 2012)

Sometimes it seems our expectations of a "quality" fish are a bit more than natural, even though we pride ourselves in obtaining the most natural fish and bio-types as possible in our tanks.

The genetics of a fish of any sort are not uncomplicated. Because Africans are so easily hybridized, and the origin of most tank raised (labs especially) fish in the hobby, most will take the conservative approach (not absolute) as Fogelhund and others suggested. In reality though, saying bearding or juvenile striping is "normal" or not could be a lot like saying freckles or straight teeth are normal in a human population. My sister has freckles and needed braces; I had neither issue. There is variety in nature - hence the massive number of species in a single lake in Africa.

The definition of selective breeding infers that a trait was present and emphasized through human breeding. Non-selective breeding is what occurs in the lake. Either way, I don't think bearding was a human induced mutation. I of course would prefer labs without bearding and with good black striping as well. That doesn't make them more natural or normal than fish that came from the lake with bearding or less than adequate striping though. 

To the OP, I wouldn't doubt my strain because of one fish that developed black finnage a little later than others, especially if purchased from a reputable breeder.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

jcabage said:


> I of course would prefer labs without bearding and with good black striping as well. That doesn't make them more natural or normal than fish that came from the lake with bearding or less than adequate striping though.


It would be interesting to see if there were any pics available of a _proven_ (not 'supposed') wild caught yellow lab with bearding or lack of black pigmentation. I've seen many wild ones, owned them myself, but I've never seen one without black on the dorsal or with bearding.

Basically, we are talking about what we want from breeding groups here. And although for the hobbyist who doesn't plan to distribute fry into the hobby it's a mute point, it's a whole different ballgame for someone who is interested in breeding and distributing fry.

I applaud the OP for actually asking the question and gathering information, and making an informed decision. :thumb:


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

I've seen wilds with bearding. None without black.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Fogelhund said:


> I've seen wilds with bearding. None without black.


I just keep flashing back to that huge wild group Larry had - sheer perfection!

I miss my wild ones from Ontario!


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## J&amp;DGuy (Feb 12, 2007)

Well, like I said, after I moved the fish to the 40 breeder where it is the largest fish by about 50% body size, the black is showing up. I will for sure update this thread either later on Sunday or early in the week next week. I am still holding out on these fish before I make a rash decision and get rid of them all. I have a hard time keeping them around knowing there is a good possibility of being hybrids. On the other hand, I have a hard time getting rid of them as they are pretty fish, but being as they might be known hybrids, I don't want to give them away which would mean I would have to euthanize them. Its a hard choice to make. The female in the pictures is going to get stripped this weekend. I am really wanting them to be "good" fry. Also, the 2 smaller fish from the same batch as the fish lacking the black that were also lacking are now coloring up as well. Time will tell I think if I jumped the gun on being concerned. I absolutely do NOT want to contribute to hybridization in the hobby if I can help it and that is why it is so nice to have all the support/knowledge from the forum. Thank you guys so much for your continued help and I will update with more pictures in a few days! I hope I can get a better prognosis when I update with new pictures.


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## jcabage (May 29, 2012)

The problem with using a picture to identify the fish is that even hybrids can have the exact same appearance as a natural or wild-type fish. If they were easy to spot, they wouldn't be such a serious issue. That is why the decision to keep, breed, and distribute fry is sometimes based on our better judgement, much like this scenario.

People get up in arms quickly about yellow labs in particular because of their tendencies to cross with zebras. I would tend to think you may have just had a lower quality specimen in your batch of fry- especially if the black is coming out in a tank where the fish can be more dominant. Again, much like in humans, sometimes beautiful people have ugly babies, or even deformed/disabled babies. Human abnormalities are based on a much smaller sample size as well per individual (9 months for 1-3 babies vs. 1 month for 30-60 in cichlids)

I do appreciate the fact that you aren't willing to distribute potential hybrids. If it were me, even if I decided not to distribute fry, I wouldn't euthanize a beautiful breeding group of fish. Buy some synos and keep them for your own enjoyment IMO. Maybe you can shoot for some really great F0's in the future :thumb:


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## Super Turtleman (May 21, 2007)

I'm glad to see this topic has stayed fairly civil in what can be a rowdy topic of conversation. Good input here.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Jcabage summarized my thoughts much better than I did.

I still maintain that you cannot make a wide, sweeping judgement about the fish based upon this one photo. Particularly when you look at the group of photos of yhe group as a whole.

Debate if you want whether the supposed quality variation is worthy of being propagated or not. That is a judgement call IMO based upon what people find attractive in a species of fish, not on the basis of supposed purity.

Bearding is a trait common in the species.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

cichlidaholic said:


> Actually, cantrell00, it is fairly safe to assume that the OP was concerned about the lack of black pigmentation since they made the post and inquired about it. For _serious_ hobbyist, it is a valid concern. A _serious_ hobbyist errs on the side of caution.
> 
> Pictures were posted, opinions were given by very experienced hobbyist.
> 
> ...


I will define for myself if I am a serious hobbyist or not. Thanks.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

cichlidaholic said:


> Fogelhund said:
> 
> 
> > I've seen wilds with bearding. None without black.
> ...


Some of my fry from Larry had beards, and Larry's eventually did too.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Fogelhund said:


> cichlidaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Fogelhund said:
> ...


Hmmmm...Mine didn't, but I didn't have them a year before we closed up shop and moved back to the states.

So, this makes me wonder if bearding is ever observed in the lake, or a product of the stress involved in confining them to a glass box for life. :-?


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

But yet we keep them in an aquarium.

Never had any signs of bearding? At all?

Congrats!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

IME the strains that have minimal bearding will show up "cleaner" in a stress-free tank and you will see the black on the body more if the fish is not happy with his companions and/or he is sick.

Good strain and good tankmates. The problem with selecting fish to buy is that the symptoms show up most in mature males. Fry tend to be clean, and females in a good strain tend to be clean even as adults. If you have multiple males in a tank and the least dominant one is unhappy...he will be the one to show any black.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

And as a sign of dominance as well.

Quite often you will see it displayed in the pursuit of and also during a spawn. Single male or not. Not sure if environmental variables are a trigger or not. More behavioral and fish dependent IME. Sometimes it would occur and sometimes not in the same fish.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't see the bearding in my strain when the male is being dominant (as in spawning or competing for food)...just when he is unhappy.

That's the idea...the less often and the fewer scenarios where you see the black on the body...some hobbyists like the clean yellow even knowing wild caught fish can normally display bearding.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

True. No argument there.

The bearding is fish dependent and completely random IME

While I cannot prove it, I would be willing to bet that it is entirely possible to have two males, maybe more, display the best and the worse case scenario of this trait, in the same brood.

I am seeing evidence of this in my F2 group of 10. I doubt if all are from the same two parents, much less the same brood.

Would love to experiment and measure the results if I had a F0 breeding colony. Would have to be siblings of the same brood though. Good luck with that.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Hard to believe that barring never came up but it is as much of a trait in these fish as everything else that has been discussed.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

cantrell00 said:


> But yet we keep them in an aquarium.
> 
> Never had any signs of bearding? At all?
> 
> Congrats!


Yes, one fish displayed bearding years ago, and I removed it from my breeding group.

The ones I have now are F1, supposedly, and still young, but the perspicax is turning the tank into a high stress tank, so it will be interesting to see how they turn out. I don't plan on distributing fry from the tank so it wouldn't bother me as much as it would if I were still into breeding. This group does show barring when the perspicax is on a rampage. Some are more sensitive to stressors than others. I have had yellow labs (in with auratus) in the past without any barring or bearding, so I have a hard time accepting that it isn't hereditary in some way.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

cichlidaholic said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> > But yet we keep them in an aquarium.
> ...


It absolutely is hereditary and goes all the way back to the original wild parents.

It is what they are. That has been the point all along.


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## kpswd (Sep 13, 2011)

Maybe I am of a diffeent opinion than many on here, but I plan to let my F1 group be the way that it is once they each maturity (unless there is someting pysically wong with the fish). I would think that a true representation of what a species look like would come from a group of F0, like my F1. They are from several different broods, and I guess if I am unlucky they will all have the same father. The F0 goup that these came from contains several males that breed, and if I can find other goups of F1 juvies, then I would cetainly consider getting some different blood in there.

My personal opinion/concern when selling/trading the offspring will never hinge on what one person or another thinks about a trait that they feel should, or shouldn't be included. I am hoping to represent the species as it exists (-ed) in the wild. My fish doesn't have to be "pefect" looking in the eyes of aquarium enthusiasts as long as they are a repesentation of what the species really is. I think that most strands of "Yellow Lab" are crosbred somewhere back in the days unless you happen to be able to follow the exact lineage of you fish. How far down the line that goes is up to each person's opinion I suppose.

I think that very few of us on here (if any) can actually say that we have seen enough F0 fish of any species to accurately know what is a trait in the wild and what isn't. Unfortunately the Lab Car is so rare in the wild that it is probably impossible to get a definitive answer on that question. All we can do as hobbist is to try our best to preseve what true F0, F1 etc that is out there with hobbiest and use their trates as guidelines. I would personally prefer that my F1 offsprings go to people that have taken similar care to preseve the species, but I know that most of them will probably end up getting mixed in with the geneal "Yallow Lab" population and that is just the way things are. I can't contol what someone that buys my fish will do with them.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I agree with kpswd except that I would pick the "ideal" specimen from the lake and not feel obligated to purposely collect or breed in some bars and bearding so I can represent the entire cross-section of specimens that might be in the lake. :thumb:


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## kpswd (Sep 13, 2011)

DJRansome said:


> I agree with kpswd except that I would pick the "ideal" specimen from the lake and not feel obligated to purposely collect or breed in some bars and bearding so I can represent the entire cross-section of specimens that might be in the lake. :thumb:


I undestand that. I guess I am not trying to make sure that I get the entire cross-section, but rather not worry too much about what the "perfect group" should look like. If I have 5-8 males, more than likely I would weed out one or two that I did not like if he happened to be one of the males that breed in my group. I guess my point is that if I actually discovered that my "less than perfect" male was the Alpha, it would be easy enough to remove him. When people say that it is not a Lab Car because it has bars/bearding, I would defend what I have and I would have no issue selling any offspring as F2 Lab Car Lion's Cove even if it showed up on them.

Ideally, I will have a working goup that is lage enough that I can do what you suggested; take the nicest fish out of them and use that fo my breeding group, but I am not sure that I would remove one of my overall nicer looking females or males for barring or bearding, or even "not enough black" on their fins. I haven't gotten to that point yet since they are still juveniles, but I think that for the sake of argument having bars, bearding, "not enough black" should not automatically disqualify a fish from being a "real" Lab Car Lion's Cove that I use for breeding.

It is very interesting to have a WG of F1 Lab Car Tumbi Reef in the tank next to them (adults) and so many of the "myths" about Lion's Cove show up very well in this working group. It is easy to see where it came from if it is this obvious on F0 Lion's Cove. Every male that I have, for example, have a black stripe through the eye. I do not have a single female with that. They all have some black striping that they show off at times, even if it is very faint, which leads me to beleive that it could be the way some Lion's Cove look as well. It is very easy to detect when you have a white (silver) body contrasting. Tumbi Reef also does not have any black on their dorsal fins, but both pelvic as well as anal fins have that same nice black coloring that I would think that you want on a Lion's Cove. I have yet to notice anyone that has any bearding yet, but since these broods grew up together, and is in a species only tank it is possible that they are just comfortable in their envionment.


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## J&amp;DGuy (Feb 12, 2007)

cichlidaholic said:


> Yes, one fish displayed bearding years ago, and I removed it from my breeding group.


In reference to you removing it from the breeding group, this was also a though of mine. just keep the fish in a community tank even if it is just purely to look at. this fish in question is gaining its black in the dorsal fin but is still coming in slow. i might hold off another day just to let it get a little bit more black before I post. this sure has been a great topic! opcorn:


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## J&amp;DGuy (Feb 12, 2007)

Also, I DID strip the female this weekend (day 14 of holding, all free-swimming and no egg sacs) and got 19 new fry from her. They are all doing well and the female was only out of the main tank for about 2 minutes and then right back in she went.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

J&DGuy said:


> Also, I DID strip the female this weekend (day 14 of holding, all free-swimming and no egg sacs) and got 19 new fry from her. They are all doing well and the female was only out of the main tank for about 2 minutes and then right back in she went.


I do it both ways but with a younger female, I typically put her in her own tank to get fed after stripping for a few days.

It certainly seems like the males remember which female spawned & which one didn't. They don't care how much relaxation she has (or hasn't) had!


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

cantrell00 said:


> I do it both ways but with a younger female, I typically put her in her own tank to get fed after stripping for a few days.
> 
> It certainly seems like the males remember which female spawned & which one didn't. They don't care how much relaxation she has (or hasn't) had!


That is what I do, too. I really don't think it makes any difference how long she is gone from the main tank, and I have lost weakened females by returning them too quickly.

On a side note, I always return the females to the main tank at lights out time so they can settle back in.


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## J&amp;DGuy (Feb 12, 2007)

Ok, so the plan for the update is to do it tomorrow evening as my wife and daughter will be out of town and I will have the house to myself. I am getting more and more happy with the "lack of black" fish as it is getting more and more everyday.

As for the returning of mother to the tank, she is doing well, i returned her at lights out right after a heavy feeding. All the fry are still alive and swimming in the fry net, I plan to release them into a 20 gallon tomorrow as well.

Also, last night I stripped a first time mother yellow fin mbamba. I got 3 to strip but she was being a pain so I put in a 20 by herself. She spit 1 more fry and was empty, she is a pretty small female. I will be putting them in the same 20 as the yellow labs tomorrow...unless I get anyone telling me it is a bad idea.

Thank you all for adding great insight to this thread and for following it so close. I hope to have a better, more solid formed opinion of the masses tomorrow night and the following days before I do any changes in my stock.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

J&DGuy said:


> Ok, so the plan for the update is to do it tomorrow evening as my wife and daughter will be out of town and I will have the house to myself. I am getting more and more happy with the "lack of black" fish as it is getting more and more everyday.
> 
> As for the returning of mother to the tank, she is doing well, i returned her at lights out right after a heavy feeding. All the fry are still alive and swimming in the fry net, I plan to release them into a 20 gallon tomorrow as well.
> 
> ...


Combining those two species in a 20 aren't an issue for now. If one really starts to outpace the other re: growth rate, you may have to separate them.

There is very little difference in mbuna's disposition at 1/2" or 4". They will fight for territory very shortly after being born/free swimming.


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## J&amp;DGuy (Feb 12, 2007)

well, here is the "Lack of Black" yellow lab. You can see the black starting to come in





The fish is doing well and actually seems to be growing more in the 40 breeder tank then it was in the 55 gallon. It is now the largest fish in the 40 breeder and I think that has possibly helped its black come out and be visible.

I want to try and get the most honest opinion from the serious hobbyists. Would you accept fry from the parents of this fish? This and one other fish (much smaller fish from the same batch) are the only 2 of my dozen or so babies that has been slow to show its black. the other one which is much smaller is showing but its more of a gray as it is not very solid yet. I just want a yes or no on weather or not I should ever sell/give they fry away. I plan to take these 2 fish out of the breeding stock no matter the judgement.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

When selecting labs for purchase I choose fry from an adult male with the cleanest yellow on his body, and I choose individual fry with the most black on their fins.

When selling fry, I sell individuals that I would buy because I want to have a reputation for quality fish and I want the buyer to be willing to buy again.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Do you know if this is a male or female?

Sorry if you mentioned it somewhere and I overlooked it.


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## J&amp;DGuy (Feb 12, 2007)

cantrell00 said:


> Do you know if this is a male or female?
> 
> Sorry if you mentioned it somewhere and I overlooked it.


I do not, I can try vent the fish tonight if I get the chance.


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## J&amp;DGuy (Feb 12, 2007)

DJRansome said:


> When selecting labs for purchase I choose fry from an adult male with the cleanest yellow on his body, and I choose individual fry with the most black on their fins.
> 
> When selling fry, I sell individuals that I would buy because I want to have a reputation for quality fish and I want the buyer to be willing to buy again.


I totally agree with what you are saying. Now looking back on my male shown in the first pictures, would you purchase fry from his batches?

Like I said, I will be pulling the 2 late bloomers from the breeding population. If I get bad reviews, I am just going to give up on trying to breed yellow labs for distribution (sale or give away). I will just enjoy the ones I have and let them do their thing. I don't have the tank space to keep these and another group of good labs for distribution breeding. Anyways, I appreciate the opinions thus far, but I would like some more if anyone wants to chime in on the matter.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

J&DGuy said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> > When selecting labs for purchase I choose fry from an adult male with the cleanest yellow on his body, and I choose individual fry with the most black on their fins.
> ...


Coming from someone that breeds a lot of fish and has also sold to people in this very thread, there is nothing wrong with breeding and distributing fry from this group.

Now. Prepare yourself for the posts from the moderators advising you to do just the opposite.

Ultimately, the decision is yours and yours alone. Don't make it a bigger deal than it really is.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

cantrell00 said:


> Coming from someone that breeds a lot of fish and has also sold to people in this very thread, there is nothing wrong with breeding and distributing fry from this group.


I find it suspicious that Yellow Labs have been in the hobby for some 25+ years now, and up until the Red Zebra x Yellow Lab hybrids, there hadn't been ONE "pure" Yellow Lab fry without black in the finnage. Now they are suddenly showing up in "pure" lines, some claimed as known lineage to wild. Sorry, I just don't buy it. I've bought fish that have been contaminated in the past, and most of us have in the hobby. When the fish doesn't look like it is supposed to, and what it looks like is a very common cross, I would find it as the height of irresponsibility to distribute such fry in the hobby. Perhaps ever worse than trying to defend fish that produce fry that are obviously not what they should be. I've had what looked like very good quality fish do this as well, with Scieanochromis fryeri as an example. When I discovered this, I fed off all fry I had, and stopped recovering fry. I have tried to stay out of this thread, but no more I'm calling a spade a spade. Fish that don't look like what they should, after decades of breeding, that look like a recent hybrid... please. I hold the fish that I keep, and even more importantly the fish I distribute to a high standard. I can't stop that others don't have the same high standards, but can give my input and opinion. Do what's best for the hobby.



> Now. Prepare yourself for the posts from the moderators advising you to do just the opposite.


Well, at least we can agree upon this.



> Ultimately, the decision is yours and yours alone. Don't make it a bigger deal than it really is.


I'm sorry that you think that the distribution of fish, that have the incorrect appearance, that probably came from hybridization is not a big deal, but I think it is.


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## Grill88 (Mar 4, 2013)

J&DGuy, I am in the same boat as you. I also agree with Fogelhund, and I have two yellow labs in my group of 7 that have very little to no black in the fins. The others in my group look awesome. The hard part is that I don't really know, since I bought them from a site sponsor online, if all of the fish I have came from the same parents.

That being said, if we weed out the ones that look odd, should we distribute fry from the good looking fish we have left?


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## jcabage (May 29, 2012)

Fogelhund said:


> I'm sorry that you think that the distribution of fish, that have the incorrect appearance, that probably came from hybridization is not a big deal, but I think it is.


It would be hard not to appreciate the passion for good cichlid keeping here! =D>



Grill88 said:


> J&DGuy, I am in the same boat as you. I also agree with Fogelhund...


Fogelhund obviously has an extensive amount of experience (which many of us lack), enabling him to make statements like that, and I haven't ever questioned his advice that I remember. I am still of the persuasion that a late blooming fry, so to speak, doesn't necessarily qualify a stock as hybrid. That's a hard line to tow though, and again, best left to your conservative judgement. Putting the hobby first does seem quite logical :thumb:



Grill88 said:


> That being said, if we weed out the ones that look odd, should we distribute fry from the good looking fish we have left?


Herein is the issue at hand. Appearance does not necessarily classify an individual into a defined species (although it is odd to say that considering the method by which we generally attempt to classify Africans). To rephrase, a good looking fish does not mean that it is a pure fish. If you question one, you must question them all (assuming they are from the same source, of course).

This topic could be indefinite... Everyone has surely had to question the stock that they are keeping in one way or another, at some time or another :roll:


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## J&amp;DGuy (Feb 12, 2007)

As far as I am concerned, I think Fogelhund has answered my question. I know I am "small peanuts" when it comes to the grand scheme of things. I WILL NOT fish from these parents, I will also no longer recover fry. As upsetting as it is, THESE yellow labs are just not going to work for me to keep around for breeding, I may just keep them around for my enjoyment or I don't know. I have a hard time even giving them away as I know the possibility of their breeding. I am not a fan of euthanasia either, its a tough spot to be in. Now what to do next!?

I would like to continue breeding fish, its something I very much enjoy. I just now either have to find pure labs or find another species to go in my 4' 55 gallon with my yellow fin mbambas and my albino socolofis. I am not 100% sold on the albinos, so they could go. Any help would be appreciated. Also, any advice on what to do with these inferior "labs".

@Fogelhund, I know you wanted to stay out of it, but honestly, you were the one I was hoping to get a response from. I know I could have PM'd you but I think your input was great! Thanks for the advice/input.


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## AlphaWild (Apr 9, 2009)

jcabage said:


> Fogelhund obviously has an extensive amount of experience (which many of us lack), enabling him to make statements like that, and I haven't ever questioned his advice that I remember. I am still of the persuasion that a late blooming fry, so to speak, doesn't necessarily qualify a stock as hybrid. That's a hard line to tow though, and again, best left to your conservative judgement. Putting the hobby first does seem quite logical :thumb:


+1

As a rule, I try to remind myself to defer to the voices of experience in this hobby, even when I may not agree 100%. I don't mind going against the grain when all I'm going to harm is my own tank, but if it has potential to affect others, I'll toe the accepted line. Great thread.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Well..

All I can say is that the stock that I have come from the most reputable of reputable and their appearance contradicts much of what has been posted re: hybridization.

I cannot find fault in a conservative approach at all though. It is logical.

That being said, I don't think this debate can end simply as he/she is right & he/she is wrong. And Fogelhund, you can't say absolutely that the fish are hybrid - just as I cannot say that they are not. How one's opinion falls regarding the fish goes a long way in determining what is done with them going forward.

And just to clear the air, I do care if fish that are obviously hybrids are being passed off as pure and would say so if I felt that way.

I think we all can agree that I won't hesitate in stating my opinion. LOL


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## J&amp;DGuy (Feb 12, 2007)

+1 to that!

I have decided to keep the best looking of my stock in a breeding tank for my own enjoyment. If I didn't have a newborn at home, money for a nice group of WC or F1 yellow labs would be less of an issue. I think maybe in a few weeks, I will update this thread with pictures again, not to stir the discussion up again, but more of a "this is what we look like now" kind of post. I applaud everyone on their civility in the discussion, I had no idea what I was getting into by asking the "simple" question. Thanks to all who took part in the thread.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

J&DGuy said:


> +1 to that!
> 
> I have decided to keep the best looking of my stock in a breeding tank for my own enjoyment. If I didn't have a newborn at home, money for a nice group of WC or F1 yellow labs would be less of an issue. I think maybe in a few weeks, I will update this thread with pictures again, not to stir the discussion up again, but more of a "this is what we look like now" kind of post. I applaud everyone on their civility in the discussion, I had no idea what I was getting into by asking the "simple" question. Thanks to all who took part in the thread.


Civil if you ignore or look past comments from mods that openly question one's fishkeeping "integrity" just because they chose to disagree with them.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

jcabage said:


> Herein is the issue at hand. Appearance does not necessarily classify an individual into a defined species (although it is odd to say that considering the method by which we generally attempt to classify Africans).


As you've said, that is exactly how these fish have been classified, by appearance.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

cantrell00 said:


> Civil if you ignore or look past comments from mods that openly question one's fishkeeping "integrity" just because they chose to disagree with them.


Or this comment. :wink:

..and I won't hesitate in stating my opinion. No, I can't say definitively that ALL yellow Labs without black are hybrids. I can definitively state that NO ALL yellow Labs were seen in the hobby for the twenty-fiveish years they have been in the hobby, with millions of fry produced, until AFTER they were hybridized with Red Zebras.

Now after these fish have been in the hobby for 25 + years, and there is a known hybrid that is all yellow, and there are people claiming their pure known lineage lines are pure, that produce ALL yellow Labs... while nobody else is... Like I said, I don't buy it.

The circumstantial evidence against this possibility is huge, that after millions of fry being produced, it finally happens. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.... In this case, yes I would suggest it is questionable practices, to pass on fish that the probability they are pure is remote at best.


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## J&amp;DGuy (Feb 12, 2007)

Just a quick question, is anyone interested in seeing this fish in a few weeks? I must say just for curiosity's sake I would think someone would want to see it. It is even now more black in the fin than my last picture post...not that changes anything.


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## AlphaWild (Apr 9, 2009)

I absoulutely would like to see updated pics for comparison.


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## jcabage (May 29, 2012)

cantrell00 said:


> I don't think this debate can end simply as he/she is right & he/she is wrong. And Fogelhund, you can't say absolutely that the fish are hybrid - just as I cannot say that they are not. How one's opinion falls regarding the fish goes a long way in determining what is done with them going forward.


Beyond the readily available information concerning the basics of this hobby, the opinion of knowledgeable cichlid keepers is the main resource of CF IMO. Individuals who have first hand experience with specific issues is what makes this community so valuable.

Many of the most respectable forum authorities on this subject have weighed in here, and as cantrell said, we aren't going to be able to decipher right or wrong. It sounds like the OP has made a conservative decision based on everyone's opinion - mission accomplished :dancing:



J&DGuy said:


> Just a quick question, is anyone interested in seeing this fish in a few weeks? I must say just for curiosity's sake I would think someone would want to see it. It is even now more black in the fin than my last picture post...not that changes anything.


I would also be interested in seeing this fish in a few weeks. Even considering the most recent picture, I think the thread drifted a bit from the reality of the situation at hand. The lab fry, although clearly lacking the solid black finnage most desired in the hobby, does have some black after being given the opportunity to express a little more dominance. As far as we know from what you have posted, you haven't had any fry that completely lack black pigmentation in all respects (right?). That still speaks to quality over purity in my book.

Much like cantrell's experience (and I have seen his F2 labs, and definitely appreciate his interest in high quality fish), I too have had yellow labs in the past that developed black later than I would like - that I didn't keep or distribute for what it matters. I have also removed several maingano and demasoni from our groups who lacked perfect striping/barring. Even when the consideration of purity is minimal, I still prefer the most quality fish to be involved in any of our breeding efforts.

It always makes me happy to see nice black striping on the dorsals of our ~1/4" Lab Nkhata bay fry


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## J&amp;DGuy (Feb 12, 2007)

> As far as we know from what you have posted, you haven't had any fry that completely lack black pigmentation in all respects (right?).


That is correct! I would say that as of right now, the pigmentation in the dorsal fin is a solid grey color. Like I have stated, I did pull that guy/girl from the breeding tank and I am not planning on keeping the fry from my last batch. The plan was to put them in the main tank and let them fend for themselves as that is now a community tank (no fry will be saved). I would like to think the statement about how it may be a quality issue over a purity issue would be true. I did purchase the fish from a site sponsor and I think it would be too bad if the fish were indeed hybrids from a site sponsor. All 19 of the fry from what I can see have the black strip in the dorsal fin. I would like to think that is a good sign, am I right? That is kind of a reason why I haven't got the fry into the main tank yet.

This truly is a difficult decision to make 100%. I have so far made my mind up to go conservative on this matter and not breed-distribute. I think a few pictures in a week or 2 will help too. I wish that one of the top hobbyists lived closer to my area. We literally seem to be in the middle of nowhere! The nearest LFS that I go to is approx. 200 miles away...all fish are mail ordered.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

jcabage said:


> To rephrase, a good looking fish does not mean that it is a pure fish. If you question one, you must question them all (assuming they are from the same source, of course).
> 
> This topic could be indefinite... Everyone has surely had to question the stock that they are keeping in one way or another, at some time or another :roll:


 =D> =D> =D>

That is it, in a nutshell, jcabage.

If you question one from a source, you have to question them all. And even if they came from different sources, can you tell with 100% certainty which came from where?

I find it much more responsible to question a fish and make a post like this than I do to just ignore it and continue breeding and distributing fry from the fish, so I have the utmost respect for the OP.

Let's face it. We're all serious about the hobby. If we weren't, we wouldn't be having this discussion on a forum. :roll:

I have a group of yellow labs that are maturing and starting to breed right now. All of them except two are supposed F1s. I say 'supposed' because I bought them from a retailer (whom I trust completely) but he bought them from someone else (also a very reputable hobbyist), so I have no way of knowing if they are F1. They look like they are, and I can easily tell them apart from the 2 I bought initially. There is a huge difference between them. They have that 'closer to the wild' look about them. But, alas, I have no proof, and no intentions of salvaging fry, simply because I have two in the group that are not up to par with the others. They look just fine, until you compare them to the supposed F1s! It's an easy decision for me. A F1 paired with a tank raised doesn't guarantee anything, no matter how nice the specimens.

Maybe I expect too much, but I've never had a complaint about anything that left my tanks into another hobbyists hands! I'd like to keep it that way.


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## J&amp;DGuy (Feb 12, 2007)

It is interesting to watch this fish develop every day. For a while, the black on its dorsal fin was getting more and more prominent. Now, it has kind of stopped darkening, it is a dark grey and almost black. However, it took only about 2-3 days after I stopped noticing the dorsal getting darker and the black just seemed to just appear out of nowhere on its anal and pectoral fins. The black on those fins is jet black. I did notice over the last couple of days that this fish has a few spots on the black in its dorsal fin that have turned jet black, but it still has a few lighter patches in the stripe. I am still going to wait another week or 2 to see how this fish develops before I post pics of it. I just wanted to share my observations with any of you that were still interested.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Fogelhund said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> > Civil if you ignore or look past comments from mods that openly question one's fishkeeping "integrity" just because they chose to disagree with them.
> ...


I dont think a yellow fish without ANY black was ever being debated. At least not be me. I was saying that there can be stress or maturity related variables at play that can cause the black to not be as prominent as their siblings in the same brood. Time and/or a different environment could change one's opinion. In my opinion.

Also, I had nothing to do with the positive comments that were recently posted in regards to me. Nor did I have anything to do with them being deleted. For those that saw the post.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

cantrell00 said:


> Also, I had nothing to do with the positive comments that were recently posted in regards to me. Nor did I have anything to do with them being deleted. For those that saw the post.


Review type posts (negative or positive) of individuals or retailers are not permitted within the discussion area, that's why the post was removed. If you have anything to add, please do so in a PM.
Back to topic please.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

GTZ said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> > Also, I had nothing to do with the positive comments that were recently posted in regards to me. Nor did I have anything to do with them being deleted. For those that saw the post.
> ...


I have. Thanks.


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## Gr8Wall (Mar 8, 2013)

My apologies for naming any specific breeder in support. Had no ideas this forum had those rules asi like most im willing to bet never stop to read forum rules and figure they are all the same about just respecting your fellow members and keeping vile language off the forums blah blah blah etc. Now i know and knowing is half the battle or something like that right..?

Anyway my point of at least from what i noticed so far is it looks like these guys can turn their black fins on and off with mood...? Kinda cool how they do that as *** seen the same fish at one part of the day have virtually no black then later in the day have a great deal. Dont understand it and perhaps im delusional but i swear thats what they seem to do.


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