# Rams Stocking Question for 36 x 18 x 18 tank



## eaglesgift (Apr 25, 2015)

I have been searching the forums and the internet in general and I am thinking that in a 50-gallon tank with dimensions as above, I could only really have one pair of blue rams. I have finally managed to track some down in a LFS , which from memory were about 1.25-1.75 inches in length (they also had some Bolivian rams of a similar size).

My question regarding the blue rams is, if I want to try to get a pair to breed, should / could I start off with 4 or 5 fish of this size in my tank, and take out unpaired individuals at a later date, or is that just asking for trouble? And really, the same question regarding the Bolivian rams. Whichever species I go for, I am hoping to keep them with maybe 10 cardinal tetras and six sterbai corys.

I was initially going to try a larger Malawi tank (in case anybody is keeping track!) but due to supply issues in my part of the world and the cost of keeping the water temperature down, I've put that idea on ice at the moment.

So to sum up, I really want to know how many of either species I could safely start out with in a 3ft tank and how many I should be aiming to end up with. Any advice gratefully received!


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## mambee (Apr 13, 2003)

With a 3' tank, you can easily go with 5 rams. Just add lots of driftwood and plants to break up lines of site. Blue rams like their water warm, which also is what cardinals like. Rummynoses would also work well.

The same stocking works for Bolivian rams, but the water doesn't need to be as warm. Also, I would substitute neons instead of cardinals if you go with the Bolivians.


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## eaglesgift (Apr 25, 2015)

Great, thanks very much for your advice, that sounds like a nice number. I'm torn between the two at the moment. The Bolivians are hardier from what I've read but the Blues are prettier, to my eyes. Also, I might find it easier to maintain the right temperature for the Blues during the hot season here.

To be honest, now that I've finally found some nice specimens in a LFS, I want them both. Maybe I need another tank! Only thing that worries me about either of them is how to condition the water before changes so it's as acidic as what's in the tank. I'd like to shoot for 6.5 but my tap water is 7.5 (gH 3-4, kH 4)

Thanks again for your help, it's very much appreciated.


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## mambee (Apr 13, 2003)

The blue rams are much prettier, and there are different strains that are very pretty (German blue, gold, etc.) You should add lots of driftwood which should help lower the ph. I'm a big fan of rummynoses because they school and are very active. They are also a good indicator of water quality. The red on their noses disappears when they aren't happy.


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## eaglesgift (Apr 25, 2015)

I do like the look of the rummynoses.

If I use driftwood to lower the pH of the water in the tank, won't it upset the fish when I do water changes and add (treated) tap water that has a higher pH?


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## mambee (Apr 13, 2003)

I think that the effect that the driftwood will have on the pH will be gradual.


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## eaglesgift (Apr 25, 2015)

Yeah, I'm probably overthinking this as usual. They have some nice pieces of driftwood in a local store and I can also use dried Indian almond leaves maybe, as they grow here

I need to wait for my tank to finish cycling before I can get these fish though, so I hope they are still there when I go back to the shop. They only bother getting them a few times a year, so they said anyway. Maybe the demand for them is not big here. The locals seem to prefer enormous fish like Arowana or the balloon rams, which I really don't like.


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## eaglesgift (Apr 25, 2015)

I went back to the LFS that had the Rams yesterday, because my tank has just finished cycling and I wanted to check what they had in stock. I was actually only planning on getting some driftwood, plants, lighting and a heater on my rounds yesterday, then coming home, changing out 75% of the water and leaving things to settle for a few days before stocking. However, the state of the tank in which these Rams were being kept led me to a soft-hearted and possibly misguided decision.

There seemed to be so much **** floating around in the tank, the fish looked stressed and I honestly couldn't see them lasting for much longer in those conditions. I had pretty much decided to walk away because I wanted to start with healthy specimens of course but I couldn't leave them like that. I know that some people might say me buying them will only encourage a poor quality LFS to restock and do the same thing again but, well, we all have to live with our own decisions in life and mine was that I wanted to at least give them a chance, and a more natural environment in which to keel over if that was indeed what was going to happen. I was even dubious whether they would last the trip home, especially as they shop owner netted them out of the tank and put them straight into bags of clean water.

Anyway, I got the guy to give me a styrofoam box so the poor things wouldn't get too stressed out on the way back and stopped in another shop to buy all the necessary hardware, along with driftwood, a large Anubias on some bogwood (not strictly in keeping with the South American theme I know) and ten Cardinal tetras. I then went home, performed a large water change to get the nitrates down in my newly cycled tank and waited a short while for the temperature to stabilise. I then introduced the fish after an abbreviated drip acclimatisation. At this point, I thought just getting them into the tank was the best option.

If anybody actually reads this far, I realise I broke pretty much all the rules and it wasn't the careful, methodical approach I had in mind at all but I did the best I could in the circumstances. What surprised me was how quickly the Rams coloured up once in my tank. I'm well aware that there's still a very good chance I won't have any left in a few weeks but the transformation was quite astounding. In the shop, they looked like standard, not too well bred blue Rams, but after an hour in my tank, they looked far closer to reasonable quality German Rams - black v stripe over eyes, two black blotches on sides, black on first three rays of dorsal fin, etcetera. The only thing they are missing, from what I can see, are the iridescent blue spots on the actual fins themselves (the blue on their bodies started to show up nicely) and I don't know if this is due to poor breeding or poor health.

On the plus side, some defecating was seen and what came out was a solid brown in colour; no stringy white faeces that might indicate internal parasites. They became quite feisty after a short while: one pair was side by side, head to tail, with one of them slapping its tail toward the other. Others seemed to be exhibiting preliminary territorial behaviour: soft head butting etc. I've tried to break up the tank with the driftwood but the biggest piece is not fully waterlogged yet so things should improve, aquascaping-wise, once it is. I saw my actions yesterday as a misguided errand of mercy that was doomed to end badly but I'm actually quite hopeful at this stage. Way too early for optimism I'm sure, but I can't help getting attached to these Rams, their behaviour really is fascinating.

EDIT: Forgot to say, there are five of them.


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## eaglesgift (Apr 25, 2015)

By this morning, the iridescent blue spots are showing on the fins of three of the fish so it looks like they were just stressed.


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## mambee (Apr 13, 2003)

Time for some pictures. There is nothing prettier than a tank full of cardinals and rams. Keeping the temperature high will keep both species happy. Also, keep up with the water changes.

What type of filtration are you using? If a canister, I recommend adding an Eheim air diffuser, the best piece of equipment that you can purchase for under $10. It will help to add oxygen to the water.


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## eaglesgift (Apr 25, 2015)

Here's a quick shot I took of two of them yesterday, I'll try to get some better tank shots tomorrow.










Edit: I'm using an overflow sump / trickle filter and an HOB for a bit of extra filtration at the moment.


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## eaglesgift (Apr 25, 2015)

mambee said:


> Time for some pictures. There is nothing prettier than a tank full of cardinals and rams. Keeping the temperature high will keep both species happy. Also, keep up with the water changes.
> 
> What type of filtration are you using? If a canister, I recommend adding an Eheim air diffuser, the best piece of equipment that you can purchase for under $10. It will help to add oxygen to the water.


I meant to say, it was quite funny (and a little nerve-racking ) when I first put the fish in the tank as I don't think the rams had ever seen a cardinal before. They were edging towards them, noses down a little, in what looked to me like a slightly predatory manner to me but I guess they were just curious as nothing bad happened!


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## eaglesgift (Apr 25, 2015)

I took some quick snaps this morning. They are only phone pics and the fish wouldn't stay still and pose for me so not very good but I hope they give some idea of what the tank looks like...Apologies for the poor quality and the reflection from lights on the other side of the room (Betta tanks).


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## eaglesgift (Apr 25, 2015)

Forgot to ask: I am trying to think of one more species to add, possibly, but I really don't know what. I initially planned to have 6 Cory sterbais in the tank but having watched the rams spitting sand out half the day, I think the sterbais would just get in the way and annoy them. In any case, I think 6 more 2-3 inch fishes might be too much for this tank. If you (or anybody else) has got any ideas, I'd love to hear them. I've looked at various other tetras but then I thought another whole school would probably just mix with the cardinals, in which case just adding another 5 or 6 cardinals would be a better idea. On the other hand, something a little different would be nice. Say a species that's around 2 - 3 inches max when fully grown and that doesn't mind hanging out alone or as a pair.

I really like the sterbais but like I say, six of them would be a bit too much and from what I've read they like to be in a group of that size or larger....


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## mambee (Apr 13, 2003)

Tank looks great. Rummynoses are an obvious choice. They keep in a tight school as they sweep from one end of the tank to the other. Other choices are lemon, emperor or black phantom tetras.


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## eaglesgift (Apr 25, 2015)

Thank you. The water has gone a nice tea colour from the driftwood and I'm quite happy with the tank so far. I'm going to add some smooth large pebbles soon and a few water lettuce, and some Indian almond leaves then I think I'm about done as far as 'aquascaping' goes. Water quality seems to be stable - no ammonia or nitrites as of today and 12.5 mg/l nitrates. I'd probably prefer to keep nitrates a bit lower than that but I want to hold off a couple of days on a water change as the Rams still seem to get stressed very easily when I move anything around, turn the lights on etcetera. Hopefully they'll settle soon.

They're all eating but I'm not keen on the food I've got for them (and they don't seem overjoyed with it) - getting some New Life Spectrum cichlid pellets for the Rams and NLS small fish formula for the tetras. They seem to get good reviews.

I'm going to have a look at the tetras they've got in stock locally tomorrow. They had some nice rummynoses last time I was there. I've seen black phantom tetras in the local shops as well but not sure about the other two. If they still have the rummynoses I might go with your original suggestion.


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## eaglesgift (Apr 25, 2015)

I've decided to go with the black phantom tetras but I might wait a while. I did a fishless cycle so really it makes sense to add them right now but these rams seem to get stressed very easily so I'm not sure what to do. Just putting my hand in the tank and moving the driftwood around a little has them losing colour and getting those black bars on their body, obvious signs of stress I think. I've not kept them before so I don't know if it's normal for them to get so stressed over every little thing or if they will be better after they have had some time to get used to their new surroundings. I'm hoping it's just a temporary issue otherwise water changes aren't going to be much fun! On the subject of water changes, I'm thinking 30% a week or maybe 2 x 20%?

Off to get the stones / pebbles and water lettuce today. The food's being mailed today and my Indian Almond leaves were sent yesterday. I can actually collect the leaves locally but for the first lot I wanted a supply that was already nicely dried. I have Bettas too so need a steady supply.


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## mambee (Apr 13, 2003)

Go slow on the stocking levels since it is a new tank. You can never do enough water changes.

See if you can add some tall plants and rocks to break up the sight lines of the rams so they will tolerate each other.

I'm surprised that the rams are so skittish, especially since you already have some dither fish (cardinals) in the tank.


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## eaglesgift (Apr 25, 2015)

They're not skittish when I keep my hands out of the water - it's just if I move any of the wood or put my hand in the tank to do anything basically, they get really stressed. Ideally, I would have set it up how I wanted it before stocking but it didn't happen that way (Some of the driftwood is still not fully waterlogged hence I am slowly manoeuvring it into position). The driftwood and plants break up the sight quite well but I am keeping an eye out for some tall plants too. I'd like to get some Vallisneria if I can, it looks like it would do the job and look nice as well.

Thanks again for your advice so far, I will do a water change tomorrow and hope the rams learn to deal with a little interference every now and then.


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## eaglesgift (Apr 25, 2015)

They've paired off into two pairs, with the weakest looking one left alone. Im not quite sure what to do with him (?) as two of them are spawning as I type, and things might get a little tough for him if he's caught between two breeding pairs in a tank of this size. Nowhere suitable to move the odd one out and taking him back to the LFS would be as good as killing him myself. He's hiding in the roots of the Pistia and among the Anubias most of the time but he's not really being bothered when he's out in the open at the moment.


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## eaglesgift (Apr 25, 2015)

Hmm, I think they've eaten the eggs already as they've abandoned the spawning site so no surprises there. Not much chance of anything surviving with the cardinals buzzing around the area all the time anyway. If they continue to look healthy I think I might try to get a 20-gallon breeding tank ready for the next attempt. Only trouble is, they laid on the substrate rather than on a rock so I would find it difficult to move the eggs if they do that again.


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## mambee (Apr 13, 2003)

Add a smooth rock to the tank and they will probably use it next time.


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## eaglesgift (Apr 25, 2015)

I added some large river pebbles - the best I could find at short notice. They still seem to be "in heat" if that's the right term to use, i.e. I can see their breeding equipment. Feeding is my main problem at the moment. They don't seem to like the pellets I have very much and anything I do try to feed them, the cardinals take most of before it hits the substrate. I have ten very fat cardinal tetras at the moment. The rams don't actually look undernourished so I guess they are getting what they need, a bit early to tell though. Whatever I try they always seem to chew it and spit it out a number of times so I am not really sure how much, if any, they are eating.


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## eaglesgift (Apr 25, 2015)

eaglesgift said:


> They've paired off into two pairs, with the weakest looking one left alone. Im not quite sure what to do with him (?) as two of them are spawning as I type, and things might get a little tough for him if he's caught between two breeding pairs in a tank of this size. Nowhere suitable to move the odd one out and taking him back to the LFS would be as good as killing him myself. He's hiding in the roots of the Pistia and among the Anubias most of the time but he's not really being bothered when he's out in the open at the moment.


Well, he didn't last unfortunately. I should possibly have made more effort to remove him from the tank but he was still pretty lively a few days ago and catching him would have involved taking out all the driftwood, plants etcetera and stressing all the others out. He looked odd when I first got him, not properly formed in some way, so I'm not surprised that he didn't last. He had started to look a little more lively at one point though, so I was still holding out a little hope that my original diagnosis was wrong. At this point, I am hoping it was simply that he was weak from the very beginning and not the start of something worse.


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## eaglesgift (Apr 25, 2015)

The remaining 4 seem to be doing well. Eating well, normally showing good colour and not quite as skittish. Showed a little interest in the siphon today rather than hiding behind the driftwood and turning dark. I finally got some mosquito larvae in a couple of the buckets I have outside and both they and the cardinals loved those. I swear some of the cardinals are almost twice the size they were when I got them three weeks ago, impossible as that may seem.

I read an odd comment on another site about not feeding Blue Rams mosquito larvae because Rams aren't surface feeders but the larvae tend to dive to the bottom when you first put them in a tank so I'm not sure what that person was talking about. That's the downside of the Internet: there's so much excellent information at your fingertips nowadays but also a mass of misinformation that is repeated ad nauseum and ends up being taken as gospel in the end.


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## eaglesgift (Apr 25, 2015)

Two things I forgot to mention: Firstly, the pair that spawned and presumably ate the eggs don't seem to be a pair now, or not noticeably so in any case. I don't know if that's normal - I thought they generally stayed in pairs once they bonded. Secondly, they really don't like the NLS Cichlid Formula 1mm sinking pellets; they just spit them out repeatedly. They do eat the same size Thera+A Regular Formula pellets though and I think eat the small fish formula too - difficult to tell with the cardinals whizzing around trying to eat everything in sight. The Rams are much more aggressive at feeding time now. I don't mean they are attacking each other and the cardinals, just that they position themselves near the top and lunge at the food, rather than waiting around at the bottom to see if anything gets through, which is what they used to do.


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## eaglesgift (Apr 25, 2015)

I haven't been on here for ages and as there wasn't much interest in this thread I didn't bother with more updates but I thought I might as well conclude the story now. The last of my rams died about a year ago, so they lasted around 2 years at the most. I replaced a few of the cardinal tetras that died (think it was 4) quite some time ago but now I only have two of those left. I must admit my water change regime has sadly deteriorated now that I only have two small fish left in a 3ft tank but I am addressing that situation now and they seem to be quite healthy.

I have 4 or so black snails in there too (ones that don't breed in freshwater environments) but the 7 amano shrimp that used to live inside one of the hollowed out pieces of drinftwood died of old age quite some time ago. They were all quite big when I acquired them, as I didn't want to risk putting small ones in with the rams, so I didn't expect them to last for much longer than they did.

My plant growing efforts never really took off: I do use CO2 but I am quite bad at remembering to put in fertiliser on a regular basis. The only thing that grew really well was the floating plant that was included in the bag of shrimp I bought - that pretty much filled the whole tank at one point, but I don't think my lights are quite strong enough for some of the more challenging plants that I tried.

Anyway, it's a little depressing now to have a 3ft tank with 2 cardinal tetras and 4 snails in it. I will have to think about 'rebooting' it when I come back from my visit to the UK in a couple of weeks' time, possibly with Bolivian rams this time as it's difficult for me to source good quality Blue rams in Northern Thailand.


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## Briansfish (Jun 1, 2018)

I was hoping to find another hobbyist doing German Blue Rams. Thank you for all this great information. I'll be following along.
Brian


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