# My African Cichlids are here and I have so many questions!



## Fishandpitbulls (May 20, 2015)

Hi guys,

I spent months planning, purchasing, setting up and cycling this 46 gallon bowfront tank for my office. The fish finally arrived on Thursday and I have a LOT of questions!

First of all, one fish died already. I'm not really sure how or why or even which one he was because his color was mostly gone by the time I found him. Do you think that's normal in a shipment of 20 fish? They were all alive and in good shape when I put them in the tank.

Question 1) How can I do a head count? Ever since the one died I've been obsessively trying to count how many are in there (should be 19) but it's basically impossible because a lot of them look similar (they're juveniles) and they're constantly moving around so fast! The dead one was in one of the rock caves and his little body came floating out while I was doing a water change. 

Question 2) Are they ok to go 1-2 days on the weekend without eating? I usually fast my betta at home for one day a week to prevent constipation...so I'm sure these guys are fine going 1 day without food. But is 2 days too long? I went today (Sunday) and fed them just in case...

3) How can I tell if aggression is out of control? Obviously they're having some little skirmishes here and there, it's an all-male tank and they ARE African cichlids! A couple of them have some small bites out of their tail fins....is that ok or is that a bad sign? No one is looking really ragged or sick though. What should I be looking for as far as aggression? (My desk is a few feet from the tank so I can keep an eye on them throughout the day.)

4) I've read about the feeding but still have questions. I've decided to feed them smaller amounts 3 times a day because I read that was good for them. If there are 19 in there, each about 1.5-3 inches and they're all juveniles, how much should I feed each time? I got an African Cichlid flake food and I also bought some spirulina powder and agar powder and I'm going to make my own flake food because they are mostly herbivores with a few omnivores, so I've heard that a plant-based diet is better for preventing bloat.

Thanks for any insights you can provide. i was sad to lose the one and I'm hoping to prevent the deaths of more if I can help it.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Fishandpitbulls said:


> Do you think that's normal in a shipment of 20 fish? They were all alive and in good shape when I put them in the tank.


Not terrible, not great if they were really in good shape going in.



Fishandpitbulls said:


> Question 1) How can I do a head count?


When they eat.



Fishandpitbulls said:


> Question 2) Are they ok to go 1-2 days on the weekend without eating?


Once they have recovered from being put in a new tank, yes.



Fishandpitbulls said:


> 3) How can I tell if aggression is out of control? A couple of them have some small bites out of their tail fins....is that ok or is that a bad sign?


Did they have the bites upon arrival or did this happen in the tank. Injuries are what you look for.



Fishandpitbulls said:


> 4) about 1.5-3 inches and they're all juveniles, how much should I feed each time?


I would feed them as adults (they can spawn at 1.5" and 3" is pretty much an adult), and I would use a balanced cichlid food with quality ingredients like New Life Spectrum Cichlid sinking pellets. 1X daily as much as they can eat in 30 seconds. Most of the pellets should get gobbled up before they hit the substrate. Some prefer flakes, as long as it is a balanced food with quality ingredients.

That sounds like a lot of fish for a 36" all-male tank...I would put that many in my 72" tank.


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## Fishandpitbulls (May 20, 2015)

DJRansome said:


> Fishandpitbulls said:
> 
> 
> > Do you think that's normal in a shipment of 20 fish? They were all alive and in good shape when I put them in the tank.
> ...


They were being fed flakes at the retailer so I decided to continue feeding them what they are used to. I feed the NLS sinking pellets to my JD cichlid and he seems to like those alright. The brand of flakes I got is Omega One Cichlid Flakes.

I honestly got so many different opinions from so many different people that I finally just gave up and went with the online retailer who had the best reviews and best selection: <vendor name removed>. I just asked him what he recommended and he gave me a list. Here it is:

Cynotilapia sp. "Lion" Mara Rocks @ 8.00
Cynotilapia zebroides Cobwe @ 9.00
Iodotropheus sprengerae @ 6.00
Labeotropheus fuelleborni "Marmalade Cat" @ 8.00
Labeotropheus trewavasae Chilumba @ 8.00
Labidochromis caeruleus Lion's Cove @ 7.00
Labidochromis sp. "Mbamba" @ 7.00
Metriaclima callainos Nkhata Bay @ 6.00
Metriaclima estherae "Cherry Red" @ 5.00
Metriaclima mbenjii Mbenji "OB" @ 8.00
Metriaclima sp. "Elongatus Chewere" @ 8.00
Metriaclima sp. "Elongatus Usisya" Mara Rocks @ 9.00
Metriaclima sp. "Mbweca" @ 9.00
Metriaclima sp. "Msobo" Magunga @ 9.00
Pseudotropheus demasoni Pombo Rocks @ 9.00
Pseudotropheus socolofi albino @ 8.00
Astatotilapia aeneocolor @ 10.00
Paralabidochromis sauvagei Mwanza Gulf "Red" @ 10.00
Pundamilia sp. "Crimson Tide" @ 8.00
Xystichromis sp. "Flameback" @ 9.00

(I just copied and pasted it from the original email and was too lazy to delete the prices.)


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## klimarov (May 12, 2015)

i think it's a little too much fish in the tank, especially for the office. You can control aggression through overstocking, but will have to do a lot of work cleaning the tank. Also pretty much all of these cichlids will grow to 4-5 inches, making the tank too small for 19 of them. Good thing is that they are all from malawii.


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## Fishandpitbulls (May 20, 2015)

klimarov said:


> i think it's a little too much fish in the tank, especially for the office. You can control aggression through overstocking, but will have to do a lot of work cleaning the tank. Also pretty much all of these cichlids will grow to 4-5 inches, making the tank too small for 19 of them. Good thing is that they are all from malawii.


I plan on doing 3 weekly water changes, plus I have an Eheim Classic Canister 2213 filter and an Aquaclear 70.

They're not all Malawis, 4 of them are from Lake Victoria.

I did my best to stock the tank well but like I said, I got too many vastly different opinions. I had people telling me I couldn't do more than 6....I had people telling me 15...I had people telling me 20. I finally got frustrated with so many conflicting opinions and deferred to the expertise of the retailer I chose since he had so many positive reviews.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Enjoy your tank!


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## tanker3 (May 18, 2015)

I too was going to buy a 46gal BF tank, I got a 58 Oceanic instead (about the same size). IMO most of those fishes are too big for that size tank (at least that was what I was told).


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## Fishandpitbulls (May 20, 2015)

tanker3 said:


> I too was going to buy a 46gal BF tank, I got a 58 Oceanic instead (about the same size). IMO most of those fishes are too big for that size tank (at least that was what I was told).


I would have rather spent the money on a larger tank that was just a rectangle, but they really wanted the acrylic bowfront and they didn't want to buy anything used. This is for my office so I have to work with what they want. Most of the retailers I talked to didn't seem to think the size of the tank was an issue, but several people here did. It's too late now, I bought the fish and they're in there so we'll see how they do. I need to get a QT tank set up in case I have to remove any of them, but I haven't even brought that up to my bosses yet because I don't think they will be that psyched on it


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## Fishandpitbulls (May 20, 2015)

I made a video of them while they're eating. Will you guys please watch and let me know if there is anything about their behavior that is a concern? Thanks!


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## Mlsweat (Aug 6, 2015)

Very nice! It's been a month- how is everything going?


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## Fishandpitbulls (May 20, 2015)

Badly. I ended up rehoming all but 2 because 7 of them died due to bloat which I am pretty sure was caused by stress-related bullying.  I'm restocking with a saulosi species tank.

It makes me sad to watch this video  They were so active at first. I loved them all and was really attached to them. I'm so bummed that so many of them died and I really hope the surviving ones do better in their new tank.


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## klimarov (May 12, 2015)

were they actually killing each other? or just an occasional chase? if just a little chase, don't think the bloat was due to bullying, even than don't think bloat can happen due to bullying. Diet is most likely the cause of bloating. Not sure what you've fed them, with mine i change food every day, one day it's flakes, the other blood worms, than algae disks, than brine shrimps. Another thing, the feeding habit. when i tried to feed twice a day, even by little, i found out that no mater how i tried to give a little, i still overfed them. so i changed to once a day and lowered portions. thx god none of mine died yet.

Also, i found out that those water pumps that guys use for reef tanks, actually help with Cichlids, in a way that it's reducing the overall aggression, my cichlids to to be too busy enjoying the current.


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## Fishandpitbulls (May 20, 2015)

klimarov said:


> were they actually killing each other? or just an occasional chase? if just a little chase, don't think the bloat was due to bullying, even than don't think bloat can happen due to bullying. Diet is most likely the cause of bloating. Not sure what you've fed them, with mine i change food every day, one day it's flakes, the other blood worms, than algae disks, than brine shrimps. Another thing, the feeding habit. when i tried to feed twice a day, even by little, i found out that no mater how i tried to give a little, i still overfed them. so i changed to once a day and lowered portions. thx god none of mine died yet.
> 
> Also, i found out that those water pumps that guys use for reef tanks, actually help with Cichlids, in a way that it's reducing the overall aggression, my cichlids to to be too busy enjoying the current.


I wouldn't say it was an occasional chase. There were a few that dominated the tank and wouldn't let the weaker ones eat. Maybe it was due to overfeeding... I thought I was feeding small enough amounts, but maybe I wasn't. I was feeding small amounts 3 times a day because I was told that was the best method to give the weaker ones a chance to get food. I know that I was feeding them the wrong food at first...they are all mbuna and it was too high in protein. I switched to a Spirulina/Kelp based flake. (They wouldn't eat pellets, I did try those.) But maybe it was too late to fix the damage done by the time I switched to the right food. :-/

Basically there were 3 fish who just would not leave the others alone and were constantly chasing them. The culprits were the demasoni, the socolofi, and the paralabidochromis sauvagei Mwanza Gulf (Victorian.) Maybe I overreacted, but with quite a few I would notice that they were being harassed, then their fins would have signs of injury, then they would stop eating, then they would die. To me that sounds like bullying leading to stress leading to immune suppression leading to illness.

From what I have read, no one seems to agree on the exact causes of bloat. I tend to believe the theory that it's a parasite that naturally resides in their gut and doesn't normally cause harm, but that immune suppression caused by stress or poor water quality allows the parasite to take over and it kills the fish. However, I know there are many different theories. I'm kind of curious as to why we don't know more about the cause. I've been considering getting a MS in Zoology and perhaps doing some research on this very topic.

Maybe I rehomed them prematurely...I don't know. If it had been my own tank I would have treated with metronidazole, then Clout if that didn't work. But this is an office tank and my bosses didn't want to buy the meds. They were annoyed enough that I set up a separate iso/QT tank. It's tough trying to set up and maintain a tank for people who don't really understand fish. This is my first (and probably last) time doing it. The thing is that it's very time-consuming to be constantly removing fish, trying to rehome them, etc. I could spend all day doing fish tank stuff, but they definitely want me to focus on my actual job. :roll: I'm hoping that after I get the saulosi settled, it will be a bit lower maintenance in terms of aggression/compatibility.

Oh, and the retailer I bought the fish from suggested the power head as a way to combat the aggression, but they didn't want to buy that either because they felt like they already spent too much on the tank...which is why I tried to get them to purchase a used setup in good condition rather than going for everything new...I had a feeling there would be unexpected costs but I didn't articulate that well and it ended up being a total disaster for me, both personally and professionally.


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## klimarov (May 12, 2015)

i got my self into aquariums when my father got a free set up from his friend. after setting up his i decided to get my own. I had to learn at quick speed too as we were tuck with free cichlids. We did loose fish too, but right now every thing more or less good. Even though my father and me mix cichlids that don't go together naturally. Our Cichlids do a small chase from time to time, but overall are peaceful now.

The biggest problem was learning how to not overfeed the fish. You know how you walk by the tank and they kind of follow you begging for food, it took some time. As for those of your fish who you think don't eat enough, it's not true. a hour or two after the initial feeding you will notice how they swim around grazing on plants, gravel what ever they can get into their mouth, they try to find food like that, the leftovers from initial feeding that you don't really see unless you really look into it. that's how non dominant fish eats. Of course Alpha and Beta will eat the most and will be the biggest (probably will end up biggest no mater what unless you have species that grow a lot larger naturally).

By the way, water pumps go for 8$-13$ on ebay with free delivery, of course not the fanciest ones but they do the job.


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## Fishandpitbulls (May 20, 2015)

I know the water pumps are cheap...the meds are too. I don't know why they wouldn't buy that stuff but they won't. We went way over the projected budget because of what they wanted and because I insisted on the iso/QT tank. I'm not sure why they wouldn't spend the additional $30 we needed to spend, but I think it was because there was no guarantee that the fish would live or if they did live, that we would not have to rehome.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

klimarov said:


> don't think bloat can happen due to bullying.


I disagree with this. Harassment can lead to stress and suppress the immune system.



klimarov said:


> Diet is most likely the cause of bloating. Not sure what you've fed them, with mine i change food every day, one day it's flakes, the other blood worms, than algae disks, than brine shrimps.


This used to be the theory. More recently it is believed any stressor can cause diseases that occur when the immune system is not doing it's job. Could be diet, but with today's high quality foods that is less likely. Bloodworms are usually avoided with mbuna however, and Mysis may be more nutritious than brine shrimp as an occasional treat to amuse the fishkeeper.



klimarov said:


> Also, i found out that those water pumps that guys use for reef tanks, actually help with Cichlids, in a way that it's reducing the overall aggression, my cichlids to to be too busy enjoying the current.


 You can also have good circulation and current to amuse the fish with filtration.


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