# Heat+salt or meds?



## TeteRouge (Feb 15, 2009)

Hi all,

Thought I'd give in and ask the forum for help. I've been reading this and other forums all afternoon and can't decide. :-? I understand the methods, and have read many conflicting opinions

Here goes:

Noticed this morning 3 Black Neons each had 4 or 5 "salt sprinkles" on them. Everything else seems fine. Probably Ich?

Here is tank and stock:
29g. temp:82 ph:7.8 ammonia:0 nitrite:0 Nitrate:20 KH and GH: 180
Filters: Aquaclear 50 hangon; Bottom filter w/ Aquaclear 201 powerhead

Stock: 2 Juv Angels;6 Rummys; 6 Black Neons; 5 Bronze Cories;

Other: Moderate-heavily planted with Anubias anf Java Fern; 12 Olive Nerite snails* (*the easiest to remove from tank)

Problem is coryies arent supposed to tolerate heat and salt, tetras dont like some meds, plants don't like others, snails others.

Choices: 1.Salt and heat and risk Cories
2. Maracide, Quick Cure or Rid Ich+, risk tetras but hope the lower tetra dose works, try to get Nerites out.

*** read so much my head is spinning. Have started raising temp, done 25% water change, and put the airhose on the powerhead in conjuction with the 4 in airstone thats always on to add oxygen.

Where do I go now? 

Thanks!


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## Raschael (May 8, 2009)

I've had success with salt and heat and also with meds. I used the salt and heat while having cories, they tolerated it ok, but I did the salt ratio of 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons. Didn't lose any fish in that one. As far as meds go, just be sure you get a good one. I used QuickCure first, lost 3 neons and 2 tetras. Used Ich Ease another time and lost no fish and cured it with 2 doses. I would raise the temp no matter what so that the ich life cycle with go faster. Also, remember to treat for full duration, even if the white spots disappear.


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## TeteRouge (Feb 15, 2009)

Thanks Raschael-

Sounds like whichever I choose, I should be conservative on the doseage, but keep the duration long. Had something similar 5 years ago with mbuna, hit it with CopperSafe and temp raise for a week, never saw it again. Can't use it with plants, tho  Read other posts, Cichlidaholic goes with the meds in case of misdiagnosis. (sigh) There is so much info here its hard to sort.

Thanks


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

As long as you know it's ich and plants are involved, you're probably best to go with the heat and salt method.


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## TeteRouge (Feb 15, 2009)

Not positive, I thought at first they had tiny a couple of tiny air bubbles on them, and the description "clear grain of salt" fits perfectly. This morning, another one is showing the specks. Temp is being raised slowly, heading toward 86, (80-82 is my norm) and am very gradually adding salt. Biggest concern are Cories, but have read on many posts here and elsewhere they will tolerate it ok (I hope) .

Since I need more salt anyway, am going to look at meds w/methelene blue or malachite green and formalin to see if any are ok with plants.

Thanks..


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## CHK (Jan 12, 2007)

I dealt with my first case of ick a couple months back. Terrible. I used Quickcure as instructed but lost the tank. After that, somehow, the stuff infected another tank and it was a low-tech planted tank. Learning that QC is ineffective against this strain, I raised the temp to 88F and dosed salt. At the same time, I changed medication. QC has formalin and malachite green. I decided to use Kordon's Ick Attack. On the bottle, they stated that it is a "100% organic herbal formula" and the active ingredient as I remember is Naphthoquinone.

Anyhow, I managed to eradicate the ick with no loss of plants nor fish in that tank  Hope that helps.


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

You may want to also increase serface agitation. Higher temp water holds less oxygen.


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## TeteRouge (Feb 15, 2009)

CHK said:


> I raised the temp to 88F and dosed salt. At the same time, I changed medication. I decided to use Kordon's Ick Attack


I read your post just before I left. Glad to hear of your success  I was able to pick some up. Looks to be fairly safe, most forums agree. Did you use it in conjunction with the salt?



MalawiLover said:


> You may want to also increase serface agitation


I have a 4in airstone going all the time, and have just put an airhose on the powerhead-injects air into water stream, turned it up a bunch.

am going nuts, lol. Lets see...1tsp per gal or 1Tbs per 5 gal ...3tsp in 1Tbs x 29gal-1gal=28gal x :-? :roll:

Right now temp is 85, and have worked up to about a half tsp/gal salt- will be able to watch tank better this weekend

Thanks all


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## CHK (Jan 12, 2007)

Yes I had it with heat and salt. Oh, and I added double dose. One more thing - I discussed with some friends here who used Ick Attack, and we agreed that it is possible that the active ingredient degrades over time in the water, and we want to destroy the free swimming stage. So what I did was to add a full recommended dose every 12 hours. Hope that does the trick for you too


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## Raschael (May 8, 2009)

I too am dealing with Ick at the moment, I have currently dosed my tank 2 tbs/5 gal. The fish are tolerating it just fine so far, temp is up to 84. . . I hate this stuff!!!! Hope it all turns out good for you! Be careful using salt and meds at the same time, from what I have heard, that can be kinda dangerous. I'm sure your keeping a close eye on your fishes though. Good luck!


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## TeteRouge (Feb 15, 2009)

CHK said:


> Yes I had it with heat and salt. Oh, and I added double dose.


Thanks... May I ask how much salt you used? Was this your SA tank? I see the directions on the bottle ok doubling the dose, your idea of splitting it twice a is good :thumb:



Raschael said:


> I too am dealing with Ick at the moment, I have currently dosed my tank 2 tbs/5 gal. The fish are tolerating it just fine so far, temp is up to 84.


Sorry to hear that  . I'd been lucky til now, never saw a full attack. Is your breakout in an SA tank? Going slow because we have mineral salts in our water, and the corys and all are supposed to be less tolerant. Good Luck!

I tend to measure at 1gal increments. I remove water in to a 3gal bucket, and replace by 1gal pitcher, so its easier, tho the calculations are a pain. :roll: If I've calculated right, 1tsp /gal is ~1.8 tbs per 5. They are tolerating half that at 85, so I'm bring ing it it up a degree and _slowly_ upping the salt to 1tsp/gal.

Ich Attack seems to be very forgiving, and breaks down quickly. Question-my charcoal is definetly spent, been in for 6 weeks, just rinsed weekly-used more as a spacer and microbe medium. Can it stay, tho directions say it should be removed? How about zeolite? Its not mentioned. Neither is an issue with salt.

Thanks


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## Raschael (May 8, 2009)

Nope, mine is mbuna/mix. All of them are juvies. The only fish showing sigs of Ich at the moment is one of my clown loaches and a jewel. The loach acts like its miserable! Poor thing, keeps scratching on the rocks. I feel bad for it  . My jewel has a couple spots on his tail, but thats it. Anyone know what the "ideal" temp is to get rid of this stuff?? Should I go higher than 84?


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## TeteRouge (Feb 15, 2009)

Used to have them, they were a hoot, but not enough tankage. I _think_ they will tolerate more heat/salt than SAs, tank parameters show using salt to aid buffering, raising ph and normal temps are a degree higher. How much more? :-? I'll defer to those who know. Good luck! 

From all the posts I've read here and elsewhere, it seems like loaches and Black Neons are ich magnets

:? Fingers crossed, temp is 86, all but the last 5 tsp of salt as well as the dose of Ich attack have been in 4 hrs, everyone is happy and gobbled up their food... Last of salt going in now.


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## CHK (Jan 12, 2007)

TeteRouge
Thanks... May I ask how much salt you used? Was this your SA tank? I see the directions on the bottle ok doubling the dose said:


> This is one of my SA tanks, yes. I added about 3 tablespoons of salt per 5 gallons and then kept the temp at 88F, and did a double of Ick Attack on top of that. Why so aggressive you ask? Because I had already lost a tank of 5 Amazon puffers to this Ick strain the week before and Quick Cure at double/triple doses did nothing. I did not increase the temp or add salt, believing that QC was enough. Take a look at this - this is the last puffer 2 hours before it passed. It started off as salt like sprinkles and progressed over ONE AND A HALF weeks to this.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

CHK, I don't believe that was actually ich. I think it may have been something more on the bacterial side, possibly Columnaris.

Especially so, considering you lost the entire tank!

Ich responds to treatment pretty easily. The only way it could get as severe as you've shown in this pic is if it weren't treated at all.

I hope you did a thorough sterilization of the tank before putting more fish in it.


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## TeteRouge (Feb 15, 2009)

Wow, CHK, that had to have been a terrible feeling, very graphic photo  Glad you were able to save the second tank, tho. Can't blame you for being aggressive. Ich Attack claims to work on "diseases caused by ich, fungus, protozoans, and flagellates". Whatever it was, that and/or the heat/salt got you through. I appreciate the advice, the chemical meds were to iffy for me at this point, and it helps to know that I can go way stronger if need be :thumb: If I have to go to medical, I'll try Maracide, had very good luck with Mardel in the past.

Fingers crossed, hopefully won't need to. Pulled the carbon (replaced with a fliter sponge), kept the ammonia remover, temp at 86, just under 2Tbs /5gal salt, and regular dose of Ick Attack.

Everyone looks pretty good and eating well for now...


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## CHK (Jan 12, 2007)

Hey Kim, yeah I understand what you mean, but I have very strong reasons to believe this is a resistant strain of Ick.

I bought 5 amazon puffers from this LFS and added them to my quarantine 10 gallons tank. The next day I saw salt like sprinkles and it went downhill from there. After they died, about couple days later, my 20L started to show these same white spots. This time around with a different treatment plan (heat/salt/Ick Attack) they were cured in 2 weeks. Given that I never had ick ever before and that these were the only new fish I bought in this period, is how I ruled out other possibilities.

Also, I talked with another friend who bought the puffers from the same tank in the LFS and she also came down with ick. With the heat/salt/Ick Attack treatment plan, she was able to recover the fish.

I noticed that the LFS uses formalin and malachite green as the standard medications for Ick and applied it generously. I suspect that prolonged exposure to that medication produced resistant strains... :? That was what prompted me to look for another active ingredient.

The Q Tank is fine now... I took out the sand, baked it at 350F for 1 hr, dried out the tank and sprayed it down with pure ethanol.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I really truly think that really severe cases of ich often turn into bacterial infections as a secondary problem, and this is what I suspect happened in your case - and to me a few years ago. Anytime their immune system is challenged and battling one ailment, a secondary infection can slip in and wipe out the entire tank.

I do agree that over usage of medications will cause them to be resistant to the meds when they actually need them. :thumb:


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## Malawidolphin (Dec 15, 2006)

You should have no problem getting rid of Ich using salt/heat method. I haven't used meds to treat Ich in a few years and have always had 100% success with salt/heat. I too have corys and they tolerated the treatment just fine. You will see a gradual improvement until all the spots disappear, then keep the treatment going for about a week longer then slowly decrease your temp. while lowering the salinity with several small water changes over a period of a week or so. Remember to keep your regular maintenance schedule while treating Ich, just add salt in the amount you used to the new water quantity.
good luck :thumb:


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## TeteRouge (Feb 15, 2009)

Malawidolphin, thanks for the encouragement  I have to add, my favorite independant LFS (where I got all my fish _except_ the Black Neons) also use and recommended heat/salt. The big box Pet store where I got the B Neons was kind of hesitant, but said they used chemical/meds. I usually go to another branch of that bb Pet store for supplies and -in the past-stock, never had problems there. There are some real hobbyists in that one running aquatics, they also said heat/salt. Ick Attack would be safe, as well. In this case, save chemicals for last resort. CHK, thanks for getting me going :thumb:

Temp is steady at 30c, ~86f (gotta love those jagers) salt is at 1tsp/gal (1.8Tbs/5gal) normal dose Ick Attack. I do that in the morning, add a very small amt more just before I go to work at 5 pm, air injection on powerhead is on full. Tank parameters are very good according to ATI 5in1s (going through a lot of those-ouch!). The Angels, Rummys, and Corys are showing no signs or ill effects, all are behaving and eating normally (like little pigs,  ). Black neons are acting fine, little salt sprinkles are still there, but no worse. Its only the second full day, tho. Planning on doing 10% water changes every other day, will adjust salt accordingly. :fish:


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## TeteRouge (Feb 15, 2009)

Well, its day 8, and everything looks good! Temp is holding at 86, salt at 1sp/gal and am using the Ick Attack tonic. I haven't seen a "salt sprinkle" since Wed a.m. (4 days ago) Everyone has great color, no stress signs and huge appetites. The Olive Nerites are even having snail orgies  

As long as everything continues to look good, will start bring things back to normal Tues afternoon (fingers crossed!)

Thanks so much, everyone :wink:


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