# vertical suspension



## non_compliance (Dec 4, 2008)

I did a search for this, but couldn't find anything. My yellow lab has been suspending vertically and also lying (still upright) on the bottom... I have 2 that are the same age... this one is the smaller of the 2. I noticed that this one has gotten some black on its body, and has gotten 'bearded' around it's mouth.

Anyone know why the fish would do this? No visible injuries.. no labored breathing... no clamped fins... swims around the tank fine other times...

Tank is bowfront 46.
ammonia 0
nitrites 0
nitrates 15ppm
I was buffering and overdid it a bit, so the KH is 23
GH is 14
Using city water with dechlorinator
feeding once daily with danichi... 1/2 floating pellets 1/2 sinking baby size

LFS didn't seem to think this would be a huge problem with the cichlids, but I should cut back on the buffers to 1/2 dose... I did a 40% waterchange today too...

Stock:

2 yellow labs
1pseudotropheus zebra long pelvic
1white tail acei
1ob peacock
6 n. brichardi
1n. leleupi
1 perlmutt
5 perlmutt/pseudotropheus hybrid
1 red dragon peacock
2 bristlenose pleco

Thanks for any advise!


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## Jason S (Feb 7, 2003)

Sounds like a swim bladder problem. Variety of causes including nutrition, water quality, genetics, pathogens. Would be difficult to say for certain the origin. If the other fish are behaving normal I wouldn't worry about condition restricted to individual fish. Keep up on the water changes and try to keep the water quality stable.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

With your stock list, you may be dealing with injuries to the swim bladder, or you may just be dealing with a fish that has been the victim of a lot of stress / aggression. It's not always visible, but the darkening of the fish sounds like it's very stressed, as does the behaviour.

I think we've had this discussion before, though, so I won't go through it all again. It's just that when you don't stock them properly, it makes it really hard to know what's going on when you are having problems.

It's hard to give you any real answers.

You can remove the fish to a hospital tank. If it starts behaving normally, then what do you do? If it's being harrassed or has been injured internally by other fish, it will start all over again once you return it to the main tank.

If it's as stressed as it sounds and you leave it in the main tank, you may be dealing with more than one sick fish before it's all over with. Bloat seems to follow stress in these tanks, and can spread so slowly through them that you don't even relate one loss to another.

The only other thing I can think of might be organ failure, which causes the body cavity to fill with fluid from the failing organs. This can result from an internal injury, or poor water quality (at any point in the fish's life).

Any way you look at it, it's impossible to get around the potential stress factor of the stock list. I hope you understand what I'm saying...It's always going to cloud the issue, and if stress or aggression (or both) are involved - not to mention the difference in dietary and water needs that all these fish have, this is likely just the beginning of the problems.

And, this tank is on the small side, so it won't be forgiving once the problems start. :roll:

Take the brichardi for instance...Once they start to mature and pair off, they will dispurse all your other fish to the top of the water line, or a corner, or behind the heater, etc...Anywhere in an effort to escape their wrath! The brichardi will attack the others from below...I don't know if you've ever seen this happen, but they are brutal. They will strike like a torpedo, hard and fast...


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## non_compliance (Dec 4, 2008)

Ok, so which fish should I get rid of? My brichardi are calm as hindu cows. They have already spawned in the tank. There were 3 original, 3 surviving ****. I have NEVER seen the brichardi attack any other fish (I watch them a lot.. it's like TV for me...not to say it couldn't happen at night, or during work day) until I put a juvi red dragon peacock in there. They don't even necessarily get after him much, but they actually chase him, where as they don't even pay attention to the others.

I like the labs... I like the n. leleupi... I like the brichardi... I like the red dragon.... I like the OB peacock... perlmutt can go... hybrids can go... even tho I like it, I guess zebra long pelvic can go.. Acei can go...

I know I have cichlids, so I'm going to have problems with aggression... I just don't want to have something that runs rampant in my tank and wipes everyone out.

But I still want to keep the stock around 20 fish.... so that the overstock manages aggression. I may get a syndontis cat trio... I want some more plecos, even tho they poo too much... I'm looking for fish with interesting but not grotesque shape, or vivid color. I don't necessarily care what they are.

Anyways, if I can keep the fish I listed above, how should I build on that?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I really think the brichardi will wind up being your biggest problem as they mature and more pairs try to form. I have 6 in a 55G tank (along with about 200 fry at various stages of grow out) and I can't imagine what they would do to any other fish I might put in there. 4 of the 6 are adults, and breeding, and I honestly don't think the 55G will hold all that personality at spawning time for much longer.

What I am saying is that the brichardi need this size tank to themselves long term...Those younger 3 are going to mature, and when they do, the other fish will suffer.

And you need another tank to keep the other fish you want to hang on to!

The single leleupi would probably be okay in a tank with the Malawi cichlids...

The only way I can see you pulling this off with one tank is to have only ONE of each species, and make it all male, and even then you've got the dietary needs to deal with...

Is another tank completely out of the question?


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## non_compliance (Dec 4, 2008)

The problem is, I want to get another tank (IF I get another tank) I want to get some denison barbs, some flying foxes, some green tiger barbs, some misc. cats and plecos, odessa barbs... etc... and some live plants.

Maybe I need to just get rid of ALL the cichlids and switch gears.... but that bowfront is too small for the denisons too.. I need to get a 40 long, or some other long tank....

I guess the Brichardi could go... I'm not heart-set on them.. I just think they're kinda cool with their blue striped flowing fins... and the way they seem to suspend up among the fake plants, where as other fish are all near the bottom and the rocks....

So waht do you think of the OB, the red dragon, the leleupi (could get more), the 2 labs (could get more), the Pseudotropheus zebra long (too big and slow to do anything more than get someon out of his space), 2-4 plecos, 3 syndontis cats, and a few more? Still screwy? Who's going to be the problem?

I really appreciate your help.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I think the last option you mentioned is much more "do-able" long term, although I wouldn't add more leleupi - you might wind up with the same situation the brichardi could cause if you do.

Add more Yellow labs for the nice yellow contrast, and then pick up a few male peacocks or small haps. You don't need that many plecos for this size tank...1 or 2 will be fine. The synos should be okay - I wouldn't add anymore because of tank size. When you shoot for 20 fish, count those plecos and synos as part of the 20, and choose your other fish wisely as far as aggression and size go. You'd basically be shooting for an all male tank with the exception of the Yellow labs, and depending on personality types, you might find that 20 is a bit too much, so add them slowly, and give yourself time to make sure the new additions are going to work.

If you really wanted to keep brichardi, you could move the pair (if you can identify them) to a smaller tank, say 29G, if this would help. You wouldn't want more than a pair, and they will quickly fill the tank on their own - but you can remove fry or juvies as need be. (I love my brichardi - I've rarely dedicated a tank to a single species, but they are well worth it if you have any interest in them at all. Their spawning habits and fry care is nothing short of amazing.)

HTH


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## non_compliance (Dec 4, 2008)

sweet, that sounds like something workable.

I actually already bought a red rubin peacock, so good thing he should fit in.. the LFS said he and the OB may mix it up, but it shouldn't be too bad. I also bought a trio (2f 1m) of copadichromis borleyi to add with the peacock to make the transition smoother.. I was thinking adding several medium fish would be better than adding 1. I have been having success in adding 1-2 small fish, but I was worried about the larger size.

I know the borleyi are goiung to be far too big for my tank... so either I'll have to switch down the road, or I'll just trade them in... the price was right, and they were the right size to make it so I was adding more at a time.

The hybrids are going bye bye. I will be getting them out today,and they are headed to the LFS hybrid tank.

So I'm trading 4 for 4 at this point, I will also be seriosuly considering the 2nd take to keep the brichardi, because they ARE cool.

Thanks for your help again.. let me know what you think about what's going on.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

cichlidaholic said:


> Ipick up a few male peacocks or small haps.


I would stick to males...You don't have the space in this tank for breeding groups, and your peacock males will spawn with your Copadichromis females, so you're going to have hybrids on your hands again. I really think your only chance for success with multiple species in this particular size tank is to go _all male_, with only the group of yellow labs...As of right now, you may be setting yourself up for more disaster...

Also, I would NOT take the hybrids to the LFS. I would cull them. If you take them to the LFS, another unsuspecting hobbyist is going to wind up with them - you may see them in the unidentified section on this very forum a few months from now! (Unless this is a show tank at the LFS and they don't sell out of it - but I've never seen a LFS turn me down if I picked a fish out of a show tank!)

Responsibility has to start somewhere, and right now, the hybrids are in your hands and you have control over the situation...


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## non_compliance (Dec 4, 2008)

Ok, I don't mind culling them. Even though the LFS has a tank that is specifically for hybrids, and is marked as such, I guess it's probably the best idea.

As far as the females go, like I said, they were decent sized, and cheap, and not plain and ugly, so I got them to put in with the peacock. If I"m going to have more hybrid trouble, I will take them back in a week or 2 and see if they will give me some of my $$ back.. no biggie.. if they made the transitioin of introducing the peacock (which they seem to be taking most of the chasing) then the money was worth it.

I'll get rid of the females. I'll get cull the hybrids. I'll get rid of the perlmutt female. I'll get rid of the acei female. I'll eventually get a tank for the brichardi. Hopefully that will put me in pretty good shape.

Thanks!


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