# Angels with Cardinal Tetra



## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

I was planning on creating a set up of a few juvenile angels and a shoal of cardinal tetra in a planted 125l.

Are they totally incompatible, will the angels snack on the cardinals..?


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## DirtyBlackSocks (Jan 24, 2008)

Full grown cardinals should be fine, you might notice one missing from time to time but it's not like they're going to disappear overnight.

Keep the angels well fed and I don't see it being a problem.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Pretty much agree with *DirtyBlackSocks*.

I don't where the cardinal tetras in England and the U.S. originate from, but most of the ones for sale down here grow close to 2 inches TL. That's one big cardinal tetra. Even the neons are much larger than what I remember as a kid. But many of our tetras are bred in S.E. Asia, and who knows what they're fed.


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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

Thanks for the comments.

My planned stocking level in a planted 125l was:
4x juvenile angels
28x cardinal tetra

Is there anything else I can add to that without overcrowding or aggression problems?


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

G'day *ikongoni*,

125 liters (app 32 gallons) isn't that large of a tank. I have a 142 liter tall tank , 24"x15"x24", and wouldn't consider keeping angels in there long term. What are the dimensions of your tank?

I would think 125 liters would be fine as a grow out tank, but you may want to move the angels to a larger tank before they mature, and definately before a pair forms.


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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

You are right, its not a very big tank, but sadly its the biggest that I can have after being away from fishkeeping for a couple of years... :?

The only chance of getting a good 400l is to build an extension to the house, which has been quoted at Â£40,000, and that is a bit excessive as a way of sneaking a larger aquarium past the missus... 

http://www.juwel-aquarium.de/en/rio.htm?cat=4
Rio 125 
Volume: approx. 125 Litres
Measurements: 81 x 50 x 36 cm

So thats 32" long, 18" high and 14" depth. (if my math is correct)

I was hoping that as they grow and possibly pair bond that I could just keep the pair of Angels, with the Cardinals.


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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

:fish:


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

ikongoni said:


> I was hoping that as they grow and possibly pair bond that I could just keep the pair of Angels.


ahhhh...the eternal fishie debate...what is the best size tank to keep a pair of angels in.

I find that I can easily suggest some one elses tank is not large enough for thier fish. But when it comes to me asking a question would _x_ size tank be suitable for _y_ fish, I have blinkers on and really do need others here to tell me what it's to small.

Oh, I'm not suggesting your tank will be too small for a pair of angels. I just think the tanks' dimensions are better suited for a SA dwarf cichlid community tank.


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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

DeadFishFloating said:


> I just think the tanks' dimensions are better suited for a SA dwarf cichlid community tank.


A community? Can you elaborate on this ?


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

ikongoni said:


> DeadFishFloating said:
> 
> 
> > I just think the tanks' dimensions are better suited for a SA dwarf cichlid community tank.
> ...


Comunity tank based around something like a trio of apistos, with dwarf corydoras, otocinclus,
maybe a small panaque species or small growing bn pleco, a dozen tetras, and half a dozen hatchetfish.

Eco-Complete and sand substrate, moderately planted, and couple of nice pieces of driftwood.


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

That's a very nice SA community tank suggestion.

Another alternative -- get a tall tank. You won't be taking up more area, but it will provide more vertical space for the angels. I have a pair of angels, one blue ram, 10 rummynose tetras, 4 cories and a BN pleco is a 33 gallon tall, well planted. It's a lovely tank and it doesn't take up much floor space.


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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

I have to confess that I really, really dislike Corydoras, they give me the shivers.

But I have gotten the message that Angels are perhaps not my best option with Cardinals, and as much as I would like a couple of nice angels, the Cardinals are an absolute must have.

So taking the advice into consideration I am now looking at:
18x Cardinal Tetra
6x Black Neon Tetra
3x Apisto Nijsseni
1x Queen Arabesque Plec

Amazon Sword
Micro Sword
Nymphea Zenerecki
Eusteralis Stellata

As this is my way back into the hobby after a couple of years absence I am very excited about getting started, so many thanks for the guidance...


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

*ikongoni* that sounds like a nice setup. I would still include some otocinclus as algea eaters.

One point. L260 is a meat eater, not a vegetarian, like many plecos.

Have you checked out this site to see all the different species; http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/nu ... &genus_id=

And I suggest when you look to buy a pleco, check out this site; http://www.plecofanatics.com/
, much cheaper to buy off breeders and hobbiests than LFS.


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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

DeadFishFloating said:


> One point. L260 is a meat eater, not a vegetarian, like many plecos..


**** it, I could have sworn that it said omnivore previously... 

I may have to have a rethink of my L number, but part of the bribery used to get a new tank at all, was making a promise to my daughter that she could have a fancy pleco to replace the lovely Sabaji that she had to donate to the zoo last time...


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

Maybe your daughter would like a long-finned albino bristlenose pleco. I have one and he/she's wonderful!


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

ikongoni said:


> darn it, I could have sworn that it said omnivore previously...
> 
> I may have to have a rethink of my L number, but part of the bribery used to get a new tank at all, was making a promise to my daughter that she could have a fancy pleco to replace the lovely Sabaji that she had to donate to the zoo last time...


That's why I recommended a small panaque species or a bn.
I have 3 L104's in my small tank & 7 L397's in my large tank. I generally feed them cucumber once a week, sweet potato once a week, and vegie discs twice a week. I also know the nibble on the driftwood in the tank.

Some profiles to check out.
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/sp ... ies_id=221
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/sp ... ies_id=706
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/sp ... ies_id=158
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/sp ... ies_id=233
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/sp ... ies_id=213


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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

Wow - that is a really great selection..!!

I'd be delighted to home any of those L#s, could I squeeze two into a 125l?

Many thanks for going above and beyond the call of duty.... :thumb:


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Yeah, I think you could squeeze 2 Gold Stripe Panaque, L169 into your tank. I do think you may be better off with just the 18 cardinal tetras, and dropping the 6 black neon tetras.

Filtration will be the key though. I am unfamiliar with your tank and it's filtration system.

Here's some where to start for your search for a pair. http://www.plecofanatics.com/forum/show ... light=L169


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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

This is a link to the tank, which I collected on Sunday... :thumb: 
http://www.juwel-aquarium.de/en/rio.htm?cat=4

Additionallt, I will be adding a very large Bio-Filter this evening, and the Eco-Complete and plants will be added this weekend.
I don't think that I will have any problem with housing a good number of tetra in the upper regions but floor space looks pretty limited.

Whether or not I can add an L134 to a couple of Rams in the available space remains to be seen.. :? 
It might be that I can only comfortably have one variety of dwarf Cichlid and no fancy Pleco....

Its only a small tank but I am still very excited about getting back into the hobby, but I do wish that I still had my lovely 400... :thumb:


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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

Well my foam background is secured, and my Eco-complete is now in.
I have just been playing about with my grape roots for effect, and this is a photo of where the project is at this moment in time.

Hopefully I can get some plants at the weekend.
I have my plans all drawn up, and I can't wait to get started.


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## lotsofish (Feb 28, 2008)

I don't know how things are there but here, it is hard to find hardy cardinal tetras. If they survive the first week you may have them for years but we get wild caught cardinals and many are diseased and over-stressed by the time we get them home.

I have found the black neons to be much hardier fish. I've even had them breed in my tank.


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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

I have no idea where the Cardinals originate from, but previously I had a shoal of 40 and they lived for over three years, survived a tank change and moving house.

The only time I usually found them dead was if they had somehow got themselves stuck in the filter.
The Black neons are generally hardy enough to be the first additions to the tank. 
Again, they lived for over three years as part of the same Cardinal shoal that I used to have in my 400l.


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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

Planting stage now under way and the aquarium comes to life:
So far a couple of Mayaca and an Eusteralis with a few Vallis Spiralis.



















I have some Tiger Lotus bulbs currently in soak and these will be added soon.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

:thumb:


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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

Plants have been in for one week and the Rotala, Mayaca and Radican swords are growing great.
The Rotala has already grown about 2 inches taller and the Radicans have almost reached the surface.... 

I have now had 5 Black Neon Tetra swimming about for the past 4 days, and all seems well so far..... :fish:



















I am amazed at how quickly the aquarium is taking shape, and how the plants are establishing themselves.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Looking real good there *ikongoni*. I would love to put an Amazonian background into my tanks, but they are very expensive.

Aquascaping looks good as well.


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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

Thanks for the compliment DeadFishFloating.

My background is actually made from sponge and cost under Â£30. 
I think thats a reasonable investment as it also works as a huge bio-filter.

I believe that this is the website of the people that produce them:
http://www.spectacularaquariums.com/AQU ... nmenu.html

They are quite easy to make if you can get some packaging sponge.


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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

I have been on holiday for a week and had been concerned that maybe everything had gone to ruin whilst I was away.
But my plants have continued to thrive, and my Black Neons were still happy.

So earlier today, I took a trip to the LFS and my aquarium is now home to:
14 x Cardinal Tetra,
4 x Black Neon Tetra
4 x Apisto Agassizii (Double Red)










I am really pleased with how the whole project is developing, but please feel free to pass judgement and give your opinion..... :thumb:

I hope to add this to the "my tank" listings soon.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Now that looks like one _cool_ 8) tank.

Very good setup. :thumb:


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## Nighthawk (Mar 13, 2003)

Very beautiful indeed! :thumb:


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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

I have today made a couple of additions to my tank. The fish numbers are now:

20x Cardinal Tetra
4x Black Neon Tetra
3x Panda Corydora
4x Apisto Agassizi (double red)
4x Ruby Red Nerite Snails

I think that there might just be room for one small male swordtail that my friend is getting rid of, so I might offer him a new home... :wink: 
Would the Apisto leave him in peace? 
Or leave him resting in peace.... :?

What I am considering now is adding a simple CO2 supplement, so any advice or tips would be appreciated very much.... :thumb:

*PS *- Any way that I can amend the title of this thread...?


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## DirtyBlackSocks (Jan 24, 2008)

Apisto's will pretty much ignore anything that doesn't resemble their own body shape, and even then their aggression is mild.


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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)




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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

Crappy photo, but at least you can see that my females are colouring up nicely too.


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## needmoretanks! (Dec 7, 2006)

That is one great looking setup you have there. I love the aquascaping! :thumb: Very impressed. Just make sure not to overstock such a great looking tank! I think you have done the right thing with regards to the fish, plants, lighting.

As for CO2, I have been using a basic system you can buy at most LFS called the Nutrafin Natural Plant system. Unless you want to spend the big bucks on a CO2 cannister, I believe this to be one of the more cost-effective and successful methods.

Keep up the good work!


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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

@ Needmoretanks! - Thanks for the compliments.

I have just won an Ebay auction for a simple Dennerle C02 system, so I will soon be trying my luck with that, because I have a couple of new plants being delivered this weekend.

Stockwise, I think I could possibly add another couple of Panda Cory, maybe a trio, as thats how they are sold at my LFS.

I am likely to get rid of one of my Apisto as he is having a rough time from the other three, so I might succumb to the temptation of adding a young Angelfish, and keep my fingers crossed that he ignores the very large Cardinal Tetra..... :wink:

Otherwise if I want more fish, then I will have to buy another aquarium....


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

The tank looks amazing!


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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

Here is teh best shot that I have so far managed to get of my male Apisto:










And here is one of his two wives:


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## white-worms (Jun 18, 2008)

I agree also, if you have fully grown cardinal tetras, they would be a mouthful even for a large adult angel fish. But with that said, if you had large fully grown angels with some young small cardinals. Is is possible due to size.


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## DirtyBlackSocks (Jan 24, 2008)

Nice tank!

Apisto's are hard to photograph for sure, they seem to like to move around at lightning speeds the second you point a camera at em'.


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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

At the moment this is home to:
20x Cardinal Tetra
4x Black Neon Tetra
6x Panda Corydoras
3x Apisto Agassizi

My question is, can I add any other "feature" fish to this aquarium?

Perhaps very young Angels, Dicrossus, or even a humble swordtail?


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## DirtyBlackSocks (Jan 24, 2008)

I would say the size of your tank should dictate that you not add anymore actual cichlids - unless you can find a mated pair of angelfish, but it still may cause undue stress to your apisto's.

Swordtails, wag tail platy's, endlers, and killifish would all make excellent additions and being livebearers will provide a food source for your apisto's from time to time!

Just keep in mind that you may end up fishing out stray fish that manage to survive into adulthood if you add a pair - but I would say you'll have no problems adding at least a pair of any of the above fish.

Personally I would go with endlers or killifish. But I do not know what is readily available in your area.

Also, remember that this is your tank, and you should do what you feel like you want to with it - if you want angelfish or dicrossus then don't let us discourage you from it, experimenting is a far better tool to learning what can and cannot work in your tank, versus listening to the ravings of some people on the internet!


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

> versus listening to the ravings of some people on the internet!


See this where we need to have an Emoticon whose eyes shift side to side in a suspicious manner.

Paranoid! Me? naah...


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## DirtyBlackSocks (Jan 24, 2008)

Haha it's not directed at anyone if you took it that way - all of us are just raving lunatics, afterall. How many people do you know who sit around on a forum dolling out essay's of advice on fish? :fish:


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Hey *ikongoni*,

hahaha just reading back through the post. So I'm wondering how you feel about corydoras now?



> I have to confess that I really, really dislike Corydoras, they give me the shivers.


Maybe you could look at adding some Red Cherry Shrimp to the tank. You would have to get quite a few adults, possibly 20 to 30, and be prepared for some initial loses as the apistos hunt them. But your tank looks like it has a couple of areas they could set up colonies.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

DirtyBlackSocks said:


> Haha it's not directed at anyone if you took it that way - all of us are just raving lunatics, afterall. How many people do you know who sit around on a forum dolling out essay's of advice on fish? :fish:


hmmm... 

How many different threads do you want me to reference?


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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

*@DeadFishFloating *-


> hahaha just reading back through the post. So I'm wondering how you feel about corydoras now?


What can I say, these little fellas won me over.. :wink:


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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

Here are a couple of new photos taken last night.

Plants are all growing very nicely at the moment, but I am thinking about replacing the Vallisneria for something a bit more attractive and bushy.



















Overall though, I am quite pleased with how the aquarium is looking, and the fish, I think are very happy, as they have loads of nooks and crannies to explore..... :fish:

*@DirtyBlackSocks* -


> Swordtails, wag tail platy's, endlers, and killifish would all make excellent additions and being livebearers will provide a food source for your apisto's from time to time!


Funnily enough, that is exactly what I was thinking too...!!!!


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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

One of my Apisto females recently turned colour fom a dark yellow with a thick black strip, into a very bright yellow with hardly any black markings at all.










Is she getting a bit fruity.... :lol:


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## ikongoni (Apr 29, 2004)

I got a bit restless with the tank the way it was, plus I got an overwhelming urge to add some L# plecos.

So I have tinkered until I am finally satisfied with the new look:





































The current stock is:
1x Large Discus
4x Black Neon Tetra
16x Cardinal Tetra
7x Corydoras Panda
2x L134 Leopard Frog Pleco
1x L260 Queen Arabesque Pleco

:fish:


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