# Level Tank



## algae eater (Jul 29, 2008)

I have a 55 gal (4 foot long). It is not level on the floor. The water is about an inch higher on one end than the other. A couple years ago when I emptied it, I attempted to level it but didn't get it right. Do any of you make an effort to level your tanks or is it not that big a deal?


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## 748johnd (Jun 30, 2007)

I always make sure my tanks are level. You risk having a flood. One inch is an awful lot to be off level. So far you have been lucky nothing has happened. A while back one of the forum members had a 55g that wasn't level front to back and the front glass blew out suddenly.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

One inch in four feet is a big deal. I'd level it. Doesn't have to be perfect. That is an awful lot to have to 
take up though. You may want to find someone that can help you out. I wouldn't suggest trying this 
with little wooden shims. You might do better to have someone make some pieces that'll fit under 
the length of the stand.


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## ercnan (Aug 13, 2006)

Drain it, level it, ASAP
Use the plastic frame as a guide, and get "door shims" from the local home improvement store to drive under the stand.
If it has fish in it, drain it to the minimum the fish need for a bit.
Use masking tape on either end, and front to back and mark a "water" line with a tape measure from the bottom trim up.
Drive the shims under it until it's a close to perfect as you can get.
Go a little at a time though, you don't want to "torque" a corner.
If it's on carpet, you may have to do this more than once, as the carpet will crush more on refill, and the floor could possibly flex if it's not concrete.
"Perfect" is nice but an inch in four feet is a bunch of risk for glass panels held together by silicone and a little plastic.
My 125 in within a 32'nd of an inch both front to back, and end to end.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

This is a technicality but I think its an important point. A level is perhaps one of the most useless tools known to man. The concept of making something level can also be just as useless.

There is an important distinction that should be made between a flat surface and a "level" surface. This distinction is very ambiguous when dealing with fish tanks because wood, glass, plastic, are only as level or as flat as we make them. However, water will always level and flatten itself out.

To illustrate let's look at four cases:

1. Water shows tank is level, stand surface is flat
2. Water shows tank is not level, stand surface is not flat
3. Water shows tank is not level, stand surface is not flat
4. Water shows tank is level, stand surface is not flat.

Hopefully that shows why a distinction between flat and level is important. The danger to a tank does not come from being off level (this is a little less true in glass tanks) but from not being on a flat surface. The tank is designed to hold the force of the weight of the water in the tank and the orientation of that force is not significant. The point about the twisting of the glass is debatable and I will not make up psuedo-scientific terms as so many do. But conceptually I think we could instead make a more general statement that if a tank is not equally supported along its base that is a dangerous situation. I think most people would agree to this point.

I would not be that concerned about an off level tank but I would be concerned about a tank on a non-flat surface. The reason I said that this point is a technicality, and probably useless, is that how do you tell which is the cause of the problem? So probably in all cases its safest to assume that it needs to be fixed. In this case I would fix it if just only for aesthetic and practical reasons. But for cases that are less extreme I always recommend contacting the tank manufacturer. They tend to know more than the average person, myself included, about the requirements of a safe tank. Especially when they provide any kind of warranty.


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## ercnan (Aug 13, 2006)

boredatwork said:


> This is a technicality but I think its an important point. A level is perhaps one of the most useless tools known to man. The concept of making something level can also be just as useless.
> 
> There is an important distinction that should be made between a flat surface and a "level" surface. This distinction is very ambiguous when dealing with fish tanks because wood, glass, plastic, are only as level or as flat as we make them. However, water will always level and flatten itself out.
> 
> ...


Point taken on the "non-flat" surface. Tends to induce "pressure points" the same as unsupported rock work inside (one or a few particular points bearing the weight load more than the whole itself).
I mention the term "level" as a term most will understand, I don't mention using a level.
I "level" my tanks based on the lower and upper trim(yes, subject to quality control and manufacturing processes), or a measured marked line on the glass itself on some point.
I also make sure the surface that supports the tank is flat, be it a perimeter frame, or full length. Belt sanders do a wonderful job here for wooden stands
I do this with a common "feeler gauge" used for gapping spark plugs.

Even with a perfectly "flat" surface, if it's not "level" relative to the water volume, it will be stressed on the down side for the exact reason you state. Water will level itself in the confines of a box, no matter if the box is planer and/or plumb.
Stresses will occur at every point that's not the same throughout .
A perfectly flat tank support that's 1/16" of an inch low on one end or side, WILL exert more force on the joint in that particular area, be it linear or torsional.

A volume of water (or most liquids for that matter) is, and always will be(as long as gravity is around), the best determination of "level" over an expanse.
That expanse being "flat" is yet another story as far as pressure and potential weakness are concerned.
Water does not care if the surface is flat, it only cares that there is sufficient confines to level itself via gravity. If not, it simply floods over the low point, or breaks through.

The "orientation of that force" is indeed significant, else why would an earthquake torque a 6 foot tank torsionaly enough as to cause a leak?
It will always put more pressure on the highest point in an "unflat"? scenario.
But conversely will always do the same thing to the lowest point in an "unlevel"? scenario.
Unflat, and unlevel, is a toss up between the lesser of two evils.

BTW, your #'s 2 and 3 are the same, I see no distinction between them.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> But for cases that are less extreme I always recommend contacting the tank manufacturer. They
> tend to know more than the average person, myself included, about the requirements of a safe tank.
> Especially when they provide any kind of warranty.


I did one time and they said that a tank really only needs support on the four corners unless it's 
particularly long, then some kind of support along the long edge is recommended as well. When you 
place it on the stand, it shouldn't wobble from corner to corner. So, support all along it's base isn't 
necessary. That thinking is what started the 'foam under the tank' idea that hobbyists came up with. 
You won't find tank manufacturers recommending that.

I also recommend leveling tanks for aesthetic reasons only. I doubt that a stand could be so out of 
level that it would blow out a tank seam.



> Hopefully that shows why a distinction between flat and level is important.


Not really, you lost me.  But that's ok.


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## cichlids&amp;baseball (Dec 28, 2007)

makes perfect sense to me, as was said before, a tank needs not be "level" only flat. to put an uneven amount of pressure on different panes of glass would need for there to be torque in the setup.


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## iceblue (Apr 27, 2004)

I definitely agree a flat surface for a tank is very important but you can't discount having the stand level also. An out of level stand may or may not be flat at the top. Discrepancies between two diagonal corners or any 3 legs together will twist the flatness out of the top. If your going to level for flatness you may as well level the entire stand.

Please remember that most of our aquariums on stands are top heavy. Not the best of engineering for a structure. Perhaps this is not so important for side to side level on a long tank but is for front to back. That's a lot of potential energy already leaning in one direction. In Ercan's earthquake example that lean could be the difference between the tank falling over on the short side or evening itself out in both directions in relation to the earthquakes radiant movement.

Maybe a 1/4" lean isn't bad, so a 1/2" might not be so bad either, Maybe an inch wouldn't be pushing it............... If it has to lean, lean towards a level and flat topped stand.


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## Notrevo (May 2, 2005)

My tank is also off...it is acrylic...there is a difference of about 1/4" to 1/2" left to right. I am thinking about trying to level it but have not started the process as yet. Are there physics experts out there that can calculate the difference in the pressure exerted in a situation like this? As someone else in this thread indicated that tank is designed to hold X amount of water and said water will exert X amount of pressure against all sides and bottom of the aquarium when all is level (front to back, left to right). The Tenecor folks advise that the stand is designed to hold 150% of the weight for the tank it is built to accomodate. I am not sure if the tank has those same specifications or tolerances built in...but I am curious if there is anyway to calculate the difference in the pressure. Yeah, I know, bottom line is level the **** tank


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

ercnan said:


> boredatwork said:
> 
> 
> > To illustrate let's look at four cases:
> ...


Haha. I am impressed. I always had the feeling no one read much of what I wrote. Good ole' copy paste skills gone wrong. Its not much of an illustration if its wrong. Let's try it again.

To illustrate let's look at four cases:

1. Water shows tank is level, stand surface is flat
2. Water shows tank is not level, stand surface is not flat
3. Water shows tank is not level, stand surface is flat
4. Water shows tank is level, stand surface is not flat.

Reading over it again I must say it really is a silly point only because there is no way to check that once the tank is on the stand that the surface is flat on every point supporting the tank.

I still always recommend contacting the manufacturer. You can certainly make an argument that leveling out a stand can be worse than not doing anything at all. Of course taking all factors into consideration.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

Notrevo said:


> My tank is also off...it is acrylic...there is a difference of about 1/4" to 1/2" left to right. I am thinking about trying to level it but have not started the process as yet. Are there physics experts out there that can calculate the difference in the pressure exerted in a situation like this? As someone else in this thread indicated that tank is designed to hold X amount of water and said water will exert X amount of pressure against all sides and bottom of the aquarium when all is level (front to back, left to right). The Tenecor folks advise that the stand is designed to hold 150% of the weight for the tank it is built to accomodate. I am not sure if the tank has those same specifications or tolerances built in...but I am curious if there is anyway to calculate the difference in the pressure. Yeah, I know, bottom line is level the darn tank


I would ask them about the effects on the tank not the stand. I have an acrylic tank from Tru-Vu and they practically laughed at me when I asked about it being level. They could not understand why I was so concerned about it and after they explained it to me it made sense. But you will see a lot of different opinions regarding that very subject.

Personally I would not take of the answers made here seriously. Everyone thinks they are a physics expert and unless you are a physics expert how would you verify what was suggestsed. The real expert on tanks, in your case, is Tenecor. Especially if they tank is under warranty, because then there is financial interest for both parties to make sure everything is setup correctly.


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## iceblue (Apr 27, 2004)

Notrevo, I copied this from the Tenecore waranty page. Read the last line carefully.

"IMPORTANT INFORMATION FOR Tenecor AQUARIUM OWNERS
Do not use any product that contains ammonia, alcohol, or abrasives such as Windex, Comet, Ajax, or
other commercial cleaners when cleaning the acrylic surface of your Tenecor Aquarium. Also, protect
your aquarium from chemical fumes, including paint, varnish, etc. Use of such cleaners, or exposure to
chemical fumes, will cause the acrylic to gradually lose its clarity. In addition, do not use coarse sponges
or pads to clean the aquarium. A soft cloth and water or a polish made specifically for acrylic should be
used for cleaning. Polishing cloths and cleaning agents are available from Tenecor. See the attached
order form.
Use of a perimeter support stand, even temporarily, will void the warranty. The aquarium bottom must be
fully supported on a flat level surface at all times."

Just being flat is not the only requirement for proper set-up.


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## Cruiser (Aug 1, 2008)

boredatwork said:


> Personally I would not take of the answers made here seriously. Everyone thinks they are a physics expert and unless you are a physics expert how would you verify what was suggestsed. The real expert on tanks, in your case, is Tenecor. Especially if they tank is under warranty, because then there is financial interest for both parties to make sure everything is setup correctly.


It doesn't take a physics expert to see that there is more water at one side of the tank than the other. More water means more weight. More weight on the same area means higher pressure. Concentrated pressure causes problems. If you poke a piece of paper with your finger, it's easier to poke a hole in it than pushing on that same paper with a coffee can. There's also a large difference between silicone seams on a glass tank and acrylic welded seams.

Just because it's the internet doesn't mean people replying to these topics don't know what they're talking about. ercnan nailed all the relevant points rather well.



cichlids&baseball said:


> to put an uneven amount of pressure on different panes of glass would need for there to be torque in the setup.


Torque has nothing to do with it. Torque is a twisting force, not pressure. If you had a non-flat surface with the tank on it (it wobbles) and then filled it with water to the point that it doesn't wobble, you then have torque (a twisting force is acting on the tank to force it flat against the surface). On a non-level tank you're shifting water from one point of the tank to another and actually putting water *above* the glass so it's now pushing both outward and downward instead of just outward. There is no torque in a non-level tank on a flat surface, only lateral (side to side) and gravitational forces.

If the tank is out of level in 2 directions (say back left corner is 1" higher than front right) you now have a higher pressure on the right side of the front panel than on the left. You also have a higher pressure on the front right seam than you would normally because you've shifted more water on to that seam than normal. Yes the pressures involved in a normal 55 gallon tank aren't significant enough to be concerned about but will definitely become a problem in larger tanks whether people like it or not.



Notrevo said:


> ...but I am curious if there is anyway to calculate the difference in the pressure.


There is. You have to use an integral to sum the forces across the surface of the tank wall. Assuming I did the math right, there's 346.6 lbs of pressure on the front pane of glass on a 48w x 20h x 13d tank (55g). There's 33.8 lbs of pressure along the bottom inch of that front pane which works out to .7 lbs/in^2 (think 1 inch square in the bottom right corner). That assumes a level tank though. When the tank it out of level it gets a little more complicated because you're dealing with a weird trapezoid instead of a rectangle but it can be done. Scaling that up to a level 210g tank (I just picked a big one on the Aqueon/All-glass site), the pressure in that bottom right 1 inch square becomes 8 lbs/in^2. Tank is only 4 times larger but the pressure near that seam just went up by a factor of 11. Add to that the weight of whatever water got tilted on to a side of the tank and you have to start worrying about splitting the seams as the silicone ages (or new if it's enough pressure). You could figure out exactly how far you'd have to push the tank before a seam splits if you knew how many lbs/in^2 is took to break the silicone loose.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

Cruiser said:


> It doesn't take a physics expert to see that there is more water at one side of the tank than the other. More water means more weight. More weight on the same area means higher pressure. Concentrated pressure causes problems. If you poke a piece of paper with your finger, it's easier to poke a hole in it than pushing on that same paper with a coffee can. There's also a large difference between silicone seams on a glass tank and acrylic welded seams.


Apparently it does. Its not worth an argument but the logic and physics behind most of your arguments are flawed. But thats not even my point - I don't care about that and its not whats important because someone else will disagree for yet another reason. This argument has been debated many times and I really don't want to see that rehashed here for the following reasons...



Cruiser said:


> Just because it's the internet doesn't mean people replying to these topics don't know what they're talking about.


By the same argument you can state the opposite. "Just because its the internet doesn't mean people replying to these topics DO know what they're talking about." Perhaps it is true that sometimes they do, but this very topic is a good example of threads that go nowhere. One person says "up" another says "down" then someone else says "red". If we were talking about which fish looks best knock yourself out, but when its about the safety of a tank and the financial investment in said tank I am suggesting that a discussion forum on the internet should not be the final say in how you decide to proceed. We can throw out as many numbers are we want, that doesn't mean they are right - even if we think they are. We all like to think we are experts on certain topics but that doesn't qualify any of use to be so.

The important thing is that in reference to the OP it seems everyone agrees the stand should be fixed. The most important thing is that iceblue posted the requirements of the tank manufacturer stating that the tank must be on a flat and level surface. Thats all that matters - if for no other reason than to not void the warranty!


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## Cruiser (Aug 1, 2008)

boredatwork said:


> Apparently it does. Its not worth an argument but the logic and physics behind most of your arguments are flawed. But thats not even my point - I don't care about that and its not whats important because someone else will disagree for yet another reason. This argument has been debated many times and I really don't want to see that rehashed here for the following reasons...


If the logic and arguments are wrong, do tell me why, because that logic and arguments are the basic physics behind the structural engineering degree I'm currently working on. If that wasn't your point, why did you bring it up in the first place? If you're going to go telling someone they're wrong, explain yourself and prove your point. If you don't like proving your claims are right (or can't), you shouldn't be here trying to negate other people's posts.

If you happen to know more than the people teaching my classes for the last 2.5 years I'd like to know so I can go get my money back. :wink:



boredatwork said:


> By the same argument you can state the opposite. "Just because its the internet doesn't mean people replying to these topics DO know what they're talking about." Perhaps it is true that sometimes they do, but this very topic is a good example of threads that go nowhere.


I'd say it got somewhere, the OP got an answer based on the warranty info. Someone else also got an answer to a semi-related question.

The magic of the internet is you can actually go look up the information behind what people are posting instead of having to take it at face value like a one on one conversation. People seem to forget that and ignore the vast amount of information they could use to confirm or dispel claims with. If all you're going to do is ignore the information posted online because the people behind it could be wrong, you might as well unplug now and go do something else.

We're here to ask each other questions, learn from our experiences and if it comes down to it debate a topic. I come here because I see information posted about cichlids and just might learn something new. I can't contribute to the fish topics themselves as much as others but just so happen to be going to school for the exact same things that apply to stressing joints and the basic structures that make up a tank stand.

Don't trust a post? *Look it up at another source.*



boredatwork said:


> One person says "up" another says "down" then someone else says "red". If we were talking about which fish looks best knock yourself out, but when its about the safety of a tank and the financial investment in said tank I am suggesting that a discussion forum on the internet should not be the final say in how you decide to proceed.


Correct, it shouldn't be trusted 100%. It also shouldn't be written off because of some preconception that people don't know what they're talking about. Again, look up what people are stating. If multiple sources say they're wrong, you know who to ignore. If they're right, you might have just found a useful source of info and learned something new.



boredatwork said:


> We can throw out as many numbers are we want, that doesn't mean they are right - even if we think they are. We all like to think we are experts on certain topics but that doesn't qualify any of use to be so.


Would you like me to scan the pages of my Calculus book that explain the equation I used for those numbers? Someone asked if it can be calculated, I happen to have a book saying it can be and put it to use. I didn't claim to be an expert, I just used what I know and applied it to the situation instead of throwing around abstract experiences and guessing at what was right. If you can show my numbers are wrong, do it. I'll learn something.


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## ercnan (Aug 13, 2006)

First off, I thought I was done here.
Secondly, thanks Cruiser.

I'm not a Physics expert, or even an engineer, but common sense to me says if you place more weight in a given area of a confined enclosure, you will indeed have more stress on that area.

Enlighten me here, but where is the distinction between flat and level in this application?

Take a 6 foot tank, and a six foot level.
If the surface is not flat, how can you achieve level?
If the stand is not level, how can you achieve a level tank unless you shim it to the stand?
Shimming it to the stand creates more stress on the tank, rather than shimming the stand to make everything level.

On the torque issue, glass and silicone are designed to flex somewhat, in the torsional and lateral axes (hence only requiring a perimeter frame stand).
They are also helped by the upper and lower frames, both commonly with braces in the center.
"Frameless" or "Rimless" acrylic tanks are most typically built from thicker material to compensate, with only an upper middle, or thin perimeter "lip" to counteract bowing.
They also typically require a full bottom support to retain their shape.
"bowing" shortens all the joints, thus adding more stress to the joint.
Welded seams make for a strong union of two panels yes, but the material itself is not as strong as glass in the same thickness.
Keep in mind that most glass tanks have tempered bottoms, meaning although they are stronger in tensile strength for weight bearing ability (assuming they are flat and level), they don't require full bottom support as in the case of "acrylic" tanks.
Being higher in weight bearing ability on the bottom pane, also means they are more "brittle", and less forgiving to stresses in either axes. The bottoms don't crack, they shatter.
Albeit, it takes more stress to get to that point, but it does not negate the fact that less stress is a better solution.


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## TheBanker (Jun 14, 2008)

My tank was also off by a inch or so, so i shimmed the 2x4 frame and then i made one long tapering shim to cover the gap. I didn't read all the previous post. But the water level being off that much really bothered me so i fixed it. I started by putting the shims under the unleveled side until leveled. Hope that helped.










the shim is cut from 3/4" plywood. looks alot better than just a gap.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

*TheBanker*, one of the nicest shimming jobs that I've seen. Well done. :thumb:

*Cruiser*, and *ercnan*, very good posts and very good information. Thanks for your 
contributions. I think we can all agree that there's some pressure shift when a tank is higher on one 
end than another, we just don't know how much and how much a tank is built to take. I'm going to try 
to contact one of these tank manufacturer's and see what they say. Then maybe we can come to 
some conclusions that all can accept. (Or, maybe not  )


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## kornphlake (Feb 12, 2004)

Tanks don't need to be level. I make the following assumptions that can be verified by any physics book.

1. The pressure exerted by a liquid on a container's walls is equal in all directions at any given distance from the surface of the liquid.

2. The maximum pressure in a liquid filled container occurs at the bottom of the container

3. The depth of the liquid in a rectangular container will be maximized when the bottom is level with the surface of the liquid and the container filled to just shy of overlfowing.

It follows that if a container is tilted such that the bottom of the container is not level with the surface of the liquid some portion of the containter is unused as the liquid will spill out of the low side of the container before the container can be completely filled. The actual pressure at the bottom of the continer is somewhat less than the pressure of a level container completely filled. Because the pressure is equal in all directions that means that the pressure can't be described as pushing down on the glass, rather it is pushing perpendicular to the wall of the container at any point, if you turn that container in any direction the direction of the force remains the same. I assume that any aquarium is capable of holding water indefinately when perfectly level and filled to overflowing, this is when the maximum amount of stress would be seen at the bottom of the aquarium. Tilting the aquarium slightly would reduce the depth of the water and reduce the pressure, if the aquarium was designed to hold water with more pressure it won't break with less pressure.

I've been through this before and I already know there are a million websites that say an aquarium needs to be perfectly level. Go ask one of your professors how you would calculate the pressure on a container holding a liquid, then ask him what happens when the container is tilted, walk through the calculations yourself and come back and show me how you arrive at the conclusion that there is more stress on an aquarium that isn't perfectly level. Honestly I'd like to know, I've got an engineering degree and this is one of those things that no professor or text book could help me understand.


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## 12 Volt Man (Sep 22, 2008)

part of the problem may be that with the above model it assumes equal strength of all sides of the liquid filled container.

in an aquarium, this is never true - glass or acrylic.

the seams/edges where the glass/acrylic panels meet are the weak points.

when an aquarium fails, 99.9% of the time it fails at a seam, not, for example, in the middle of the front panel of glass or something.

thus, the model above assumes things that are not necessarily true in an aquarium situation.

secondly, if I recall, pressure is only equal and continuous at all points given equal depth.

thus, if you put a pressure guage at 12 inches of depth in a 100 gallon tank it will be less than that if you put the pressure gauage at 24" in depth.

the force per unit area is higher due the coloumn of water above it.

I am just throwing my thoughts out here. its been awhile since I have done first year physics (I was a biology major in university) so I could be wrong


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## kornphlake (Feb 12, 2004)

The model is accurate, the maximum pressure is on the seams at the bottom of an aquarium with the maximum height of water above the seam, see statement #1, it says exactly what you do about pressure being related to water depth. The maximum water height occurs when the tank is level, if the tank is not level the maximum water height is decreased which decreases the pressure on the seams. All vertical seams have a pressure gradient from zero at the water line increasing to a maximum at the bottom of the seam, these seams don't have any trouble resisting the unequal pressure. Again the largest gradient occurs when the water height is maximized as in a perfectly level aqarium, tipping the aquarium will reduce the water height and decrease the maximum pressure at the bottom of the seam.

I graduated 5 years ago, it's been a while since I've been close to anyone in the academic community who might be able to give me some additional insight as to why a level container sees less stress. The basic assumption I make is that unequal pressures are always present on vertical seams and they will withstand the pressure gradient without incident for 10 or more years, the seams at the bottom should be no less capable of carrying a load that is unequal especially considering the net impact of a reduced water height potential of a tank that is not level. The difference in pressure from one end of an aquarium to the other in an aquarium that has 1" drop over 48" would be equal to one inch of water or .03612 PSI (1 inch water = 3.612x10^-2 PSI at sea level) a fairly negligable amount of pressure. A water baloon with a latex wall of only a few thousandths of an inch thick will easily contain that amount of pressure without rupture. In my years of keeping fish I've never had a tank leak at the seams on the bottom where the maximum pressure is experianced, I've always had leaks somewhere in a vertical seam, every leak I've had was somewhere 3-6 inches from the bottom.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

algae eater said:


> I have a 55 gal (4 foot long). It is not level on the floor. The water is about an inch higher on one end than the other. A couple years ago when I emptied it, I attempted to level it but didn't get it right. Do any of you make an effort to level your tanks or is it not that big a deal?


A tank being level or not means nothing and poses no risk; itâ€™s only a cosmetic concern.

If the tank is 1â€


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

Ugh. Cruiser and ercnan your responses are great examples of why I did not want to get into my own explanation of the claims I made. This argument has been made way too many times ad infinitum without much value. The reason I only stated my disagreement and did not "prove" you wrong was to make sure that if someone came across this thread in the future they would at least see that there was some disagreement made to your points and because it has proven to be an argument that is really just a waste of time.

Now, this is my personal opinion and plee, but I really wish people would stop saying what kind of brilliant engineer they are. I see that all the time and I always find it really annoying. I often wonder how many times it is probably a 15 kid who is still in high school or something. We can all make claims to our intelligence but that is irrelevant. And last time I checked physics classes usually have a pretty high failure rate, so I don't put much stock in someone just because they took physics. The funny thing is that it seems you assumed you were smarter by default without considering who it is that is disagreeing with you.

As for the comment that a tank cannot be level and not on a flat surface that is incorrect. Since you are all good students you can take that as a homework assignment to think about how it can be true.

Ignoring some of the superflous words, my point was to say that in my opinion its better to ask the tank manufacturer what their recommendations are and to just follow that. For practical reasons it is safer to assume they know what they are talking about or they would probably be out of business. And for financial reasons not following their advice can void your warranty. And I applaud prov for taking the initiative to get a professional opinion. (Although the very same thing happened before in another controversial thread and people still ignored it, so I don't have much hope for it settling anything, but I really am interested in what information he comes up with.)

My other point was to say that there are those who disagree with the conclusion and science behind the explanations that Cruiser and ercnan have made. Toby_H and particularly kornphlake did a good job of explaining those reasons. Again this argument has been made many times with the same arguments so this is nothing new.

I normally don't like to be so combative. I actually had no intention of looking at this post again because it just got me really frustrated, and the problem had already been solved as far as the OP was concerned, however, I saw it kept getting responses so I couldn't help myself. Whether right or wrong my concern is for people that come across posts like this later on. I can't tell you how many times I have read old posts and got the wrong impression because the right information was never added after the thread got dropped. So I wanted to stress the takeaway message of

1. Contact the manufacturer if you have a question about the structural integrity of your tank/stand
2. There are different opinions about the structural necessity of leveling a tank (regardless of which is right or wrong)


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Ok, well for what it's worth, here's the query to and response from a well know tank manufacturer..

*
How important is that my tank be perfectly level? At what point do I risk, if any, an undue pressure on 
a joint at the low end because the tank is out of level?*

_As long as the bubble on the level is within the lines from side to side or front to back. 
From corner to corner (diagonally) it should be as level as you can get it. Make sure that all corners of 
the tank trim are resting on the stand. Small gaps along the front or back edge and side edges are 
nothing to be worried about. If you need to shim it, always shim between the stand and the floor. 
Never shim between the tank and the stand._

*So, if the bubble is outside the lines do I risk a tank failure? Just trying to decide how important it is 
to drain and shim.*

_You can potentially risk tank failure. If it is you will want to drain the tank down enough to
shim. How much you need to drain out will depend on how big the tank is and how heavy the 
decorations and gravel are._

Well, no technical info, but the manufacturer recommends leveling a tank via shimming to avoid the 
risk of a tank failure. Is it maybe just the safe position to take? I've left off the contact info, but if anyone 
is interested, PM me and I'll forward it to you. Resolves little, I think. I just wanted to follow through, 
and now I'm leaving the debate.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

prov356 said:


> Resolves little, I think


I think that resolves everything. The "debate" is a waste of time. Information is what is important and I think your due diligence has provided us with good information. Personally, I will use that answer as my advice from now on.

Also, was it a glass or acyclic manufacturer?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Glass, acrylic is a whole other ballgame. I don't think any of this applies. You could probably stand 
an acrylic tank on it's end. Hope that doesn't open another can of worms.


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## niccomau (Oct 14, 2008)

This is so confusing! I was concerned cause the water line was a half inch higher on the right side of my tank. But the 36" bowfront tank is on a flat surface, supported by the stand around the bottom. The stand is on a flat surface. Its not the stand or the tank causing it, it's our house, which had settled this way before we bought it. We never had a container of water with a long enough surface area to notice. In this post everyone refers to a 48" tank, so if my tank is 36" it's not so much of a concern?


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## Isis24 (Dec 10, 2008)

Old thread, I know...

Just wanted to add a few bits of important info. The pressure on all sides of the container cannot be equal because there's a downward Force vector due to gravity. There's no gravity acting from left to right, and no other external force pushing the water outward. In other words, there are two forces.

1. the pressure of the water on the container (a force per unit area)
2. the force of gravity (mass x g)

The net force then, is downwards. the bottom pane experiences a greater force than the other panes of glass. If the tank is not level, you're essentially "tipping" the tank, and that downward force vector points off center (of the tank), putting stress on the seams on that side of the tank. The major problem is that only the bottom pane is supported (by the tank stand), and the side panes aren't! So while the tank stand "holds in" the bottom pane, it doesn't do the same for the sides. the silicone is pretty much the only thing holding those side panes in. A greater Force experienced by those panes is dangerous, because they weren't manufactured to handle the extra force (or pressure).

The less level a tank is, the more off center the force vector will be, and the more dangerous that is for leaks, etc. Just how much off center is "really bad"? That debate will not be solved any time soon...


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

I hate this topic and I hope no one ever reads this thread or ever thinks about this question again.

Having said that your point is not accurate. The problem is that liquids and gases do not have the same static properties as solids. What you said applies to a solid but not a liquid.

Please, everyone who wants to think about this problem read up on hydrostatics. Regular statics does not apply to liquid and gases.

The force on an surface of a liquid filled container is a function of the liquid density, gravity, and height of the water column. This is consistent with solid statics. However, the difference is not in the equation but in the force vector. The force of a liquid is not unidirectional with gravity, but it is omnidirectional. The force of the liquid on the container is applied in all directions equally.

Because the force is applied equally in all direction, there cannot be an any imbalance of the force applied on the container. In other words you can not have "more" force applied to the side if the tank is off level.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> The force of a liquid is not unidirectional with gravity, but it is omnidirectional. The force of the liquid on the container is applied in all directions equally.
> 
> Because the force is applied equally in all direction, there cannot be an any imbalance of the force applied on the container. In other words you can not have "more" force applied to the side if the tank is off level.


Won me over. Makes a lot of sense. So, can we conclude then that out of level doesn't cause a tank to 
be more prone to leaks and blowouts? Because that's always been the argument. Out of level puts 
more pressure and stress on the joints.


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## zcfish (Jan 31, 2009)

base on the fact that there are quite a few tanks out there not leveled properly and we don't hear tanks crashing that much it's not a problem. mine is 6 ft and off by about 1/4 inch left to right.

also when i wash my 10 gallon tank i often tilt it at 45 degree angle therefore an extreme case of out of level but the tank is ok. it's not busting on the seams.


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## niccomau (Oct 14, 2008)

i get the points about the tank not being level. But my tank is level on the stand, the stand is level on the floor, but the floor is NOT level. The house settles every summer and winter, so untill summer, my tank is off by a 1/4 inch on one side. In the summer, its COMPLETELEY level. So I shouldn't worry cause the tank and stand are level, and thats all that matters?


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## vfc (Feb 13, 2007)

Niccomau,
Excellent observation. Even a tank on a concrete floor is still subject to seasonal variations in a wooden stand. That's why it is important to always use a foam cushion between the tank and stand. I use closed-cell exercise mat of the correct density to allow the tank to settle in perfectly flat as the stand/floor rises and falls over time. Most styrofoams are too stiff and not resilient enough to adjust properly.

BTW - Most tanks installed on basement floors require shims due to the fact that a concrete floor is tapered to force water to run off to the sides and into a drain. Shimming gets tricky when you have a tank near a corner because you have to deal with both the front to back slope as well as the side to side slope.

I have one tank near the center of the floor so I had to only shim side to side (see picture). My other two tanks are near corners and have a different thickness shim under each leg.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

niccomau said:


> i get the points about the tank not being level. But my tank is level on the stand, the stand is level on the floor, but the floor is NOT level. The house settles every summer and winter, so untill summer, my tank is off by a 1/4 inch on one side. In the summer, its COMPLETELEY level. So I shouldn't worry cause the tank and stand are level, and thats all that matters?


This brings up a separate issue. The tank is OK because of the hydrostatic properties of weight and force. However, the stand itself is not a liquid, so regular statics apply. But even if the stand was off by an inch I can't imagine it would be detrimentally weakened.

Now, if looks like the leaning tower of Pisa, then you might want to think about fixing it.

I forget if I posted this in this post or another (there have been so many) but, the most important thing is a flat surface for your tank to sit on, not necessarily a level one.


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## madmax666 (Sep 11, 2008)

haha i dont want to read through this but...some input i have. A 55 gallon isnt that big of a tank you could lift that sucker no problem  . i had to do the same with my 55gallon my brother and dad helped. 2 lift 1 shove the wood under there. it wasnt my fault for this thogh its an old house 1815-ish and the floors are the most level. Good luck! :thumb:


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