# Hints on Sexing Mbuna



## pack-rat (Aug 2, 2010)

Hi Folks,
I started my first cichlid tank in June of this year with juvies and now my fish range from around 1.5" to nearly 4". I know I have too many males based on behavior, but before I start removing fish I want to positively sex them so I can get the ratios right. Anyway, my problem is that I have examined a couple of my bigger fish (p. socolofi 'males' that were about 3" at the time) and I couldn't make out any of the vent detail that is shown in the reference diagrams.

I'd appreciate any advice on venting my fish. I understand what I am supposed to be looking for (been to the forum's library and I have a hardcopy book), but so far I'm just not seeing it.

Thanks,
Curt


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

I'm in your boat. If they're not dimorphic, I haven't had much luck venting my 3-4" fish.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Kind of the only way of spotting just how many males you have is start removing the clear coloured up males. The Sub dom males will then gain dominance and colour up. It is not all bad news. In a large enough tank even bad mix of males and females can work well.

Ever wondered why fish shops are happy for you to buy the best (Mbuna) looking dominant fish? They know pretty soon another fish will soon show itself to be a male.

Kind of hard though to follow the best sex mix instructions for small tanks.
As you generaly have more males than you thought you bought with youngish fish.

No help I know now but in general try and buy all females at first and if you do not get enough extra males are easy to come by.

Getting extra females can be a tough losing battle.

Its kind of you have to buy your original fish at higher sizes and price if you want to be able to select the sex mix.

Hard I know but kind of the learning curve.

On venting with any degree of accuracy they kind of need to be big and ready to breed. For most folk they kind of know from the behaviour already things are not going to be great when they finally get to this point. Males vent is smaller than the anus the females larger when mature.
But you often need a bunch of good size males and females to see this clearly and their are a few that even an expert can only say maybe one or the other. :wink:

All the best James


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## pack-rat (Aug 2, 2010)

Thanks for the sympathy, but I was hoping it was just me. 

I guess I can start to remove probable males based on aggression. I have a couple of fish that are really pushing around the others and I'm thinking they need a road trip. I just wanted to try and find out where I stood on my M:F ratio while I was at it so I could decide whether to consider adding more fish to these groups.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Pushing around is typical for cichlids... dont plan on that stopping.

now, biting & relentless chasing is bad.


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## pack-rat (Aug 2, 2010)

24Tropheus said:


> Kind of the only way of spotting just how many males you have is start removing the clear coloured up males. The Sub dom males will then gain dominance and colour up.


Unfortunately one of my biggest problems is with my albino socolofi. No coloring up regardless; they are all snow white.

My tank is a 4' 75G, and I am going for 4 species in 1m:3-5f groupings. But I think I will proceed with some removals and see what that does to the pecking order...


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## pack-rat (Aug 2, 2010)

Glaneon said:


> Pushing around is typical for cichlids... dont plan on that stopping.
> 
> now, biting & relentless chasing is bad.


A couple of my fish are beginning to show some marks, and I hear them slam into the glass sometimes as a result of being chased. No it is not relentless yet, but it continues to escalate by degrees. Everybody comes out at mealtime; if a fish was too scared to eat that would obviously be serious.

Going strictly on behavior, my guess is that I have either 3m:1f or 4m in my p. socolofi group, and that probably isn't going to be sustainable longterm. I was just hoping to nail it down before I start swapping out fish.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

If fish are not being killed in your present set up, then I would kind of go for softly softly. Upsetting the present pecking order by removing males on mass can lead to loss of the valuable females as well as the less valuable males.
Kind of if it is not bust do not try and fix it quick. They will breed regardless of sex mix provided you have females. Chopping and changing may alter this. You kind of want a lot more to breed with though. Say at least 3 better 6 or more females for a long term set up.

For sure no expert on breeding albinos (hate the guys myself) more regular Mbuna species and variants are my bag but if you like em then fare enough. Sure someone with experience of breeding albinos should chip in I hope.

All the best James


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## dielikemoviestars (Oct 23, 2007)

The females are the ones holding eggs in their mouths.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

As long as they are not paternal mouthbrooders.
(not sure any malawi are)


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

Glaneon said:


> As long as they are not paternal mouthbrooders.
> (not sure any malawi are)


None are.


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## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

Go buy a Jewler's Loupe (i like the LED lighted 30x Loupe the best). Then get a fish you know is male (dimorphic species) and a female (has held eggs) and examine them. It really doesnt take long to figure out the difference.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Regarding venting: I had a fun exercise a couple weeks ago. I knew I had 4 male and 4 female rusties - they're borderline dimorphic and all 4 females had held. The females spend a lot of time hiding in the corners, so I figured it was time to remove the extra males.

While doing this, I figured it would be a good time to catelogue my fish and practice venting - I had never done it before.

I started with the aceis because they were the biggest at 3.5-4". I felt they were very easy to tell the sexes apart. I identified what I thought were 2 males and 4 females. It surprised me to see that the 2 males were the smaller 2 fish of the group, and the females were larger. But my aceis haven't held yet so there is still a question of how accurate I was.

I moved onto the labs next. I can clearly identify a dominant male there, so I did him first, and it was hard to tell at first. The labs are smaller than the aceis so I expected it to be tougher, but I figured it would be easier knowing the fish I was looking at was indeed a male. After quinting at him for a while, I decided I figured out the defining characteristic. The surpirse with the labs is that the largest lab (slightly large than the dominant male and and brighter yellow than the rest, seemed clearly female. I had always assumed it was a second male. I've never seen her hold eggs, but now I won't be surprised to see her holding one day when troy decides he's ready to handle big momma  Overall, I think I identified 2 males and 3 female labs. No agression/hiding problems with them, so they all stay.

I don't recall anything to note with the sp. dolphin's. I think I have 2 male and 3 females, but I'm less sure with these. There is a degree of dimorphism, but sometimes the females show barring as poignant as the males. No agression/hiding problems with them, so they all stay.

The albinos were impossible to sex. I did the largest 2 first - I suspected them to be male because I have seen them scrap in the tank. When I moved on through the rest of them, I gave up - either they're all male because they all look the same, or they're not big or mature enough yet to tell.

I did the rusties last. I already thought or knew what they were, but I looked anyways for practice. There was a degree of uncertainty between one of the males and one of the females - I actually through 1 of the males back in the tank because I mistook it as a female, and one of the females maybe could have been a male. However, all 4 I have identified as females have held eggs since I took out the extra males. The extra males are currently alone in a 33XL until I figure out what to do with them. They haven't killed each other yet, and none of them have surprised me by holding eggs in there, so I'm pretty sure they are males.

The moral of this story is - venting takes practice, all mbuna aren't equal, size and species matters, and sometimes observational characteristics aren't accurate - i.e. my current larger aceis aren't the males, and my largest lab with the brightest color is a female - I think anyways, because I won't know until I have confirmation aka holding. My albinos suggest that it may be more difficult to vent them due to the lack of pigment. Maturity matters - the rusties are the smallest but all the females had held, the labs, GD, and albinos all larger, but harder to vent. you'll never know for sure until you see your females holding.


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## Aura (Oct 29, 2005)

My tip for venting fish: Have someone helping you and take a picture. I set my cheap little point and shoot camera to macro and took a couple of picturess, then looked at them fully zoomed. I even posted the pics for other opinions to confirm what I thought it was.


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