# Guess who's finally here?



## des (Mar 30, 2011)

I'm super excited.

I've been waiting for this opportunity for a very long time and it was worth the wait. For the record in case I ever forget, I brought home my very first wild caught group of Tropheus on Sunday, March 18th, 2012.

46 of them arrived a week ago and were quarantined by a local importer. There were unfortunately 5 DOA. All the ones that survived looked healthy, swimming normal and are eating. There were a few that had scrape marks from either scratching on rock or aggression and left larges swells. Hard to tell for sure if it was actually scrape marks but appeared that way. The said ratio of male to female is 1:2. I was able to hand pick my group of 20 that consists of 6 males and 14 females through venting.

They are all home now in a 90 gallon. I promise I will get some quality photos up later but for now, you get images from my phone.

Here are some Questions:

1) Easy one - for fun can you guess what Tropheus variant these are? I obviously know but wanted to see if you can tell from the photos.

2) Typically how long before fish should be taking out of quarantine? Is a week too soon? Could I be taking a risk because I was eager to get them home sooner?

3) Right now my pH is about 8. I was thinking about purchasing and using Seachem Tanganyika Buffer and boosting the pH to 9. Would you recommend this?

4) Right now I have 20 adult fish in the 90 gallon which I think is the maximum. I do have the opportunity to add more before they are all gone. Do you think I should add more or would I be pushing it? I don't plan on getting a larger tank any time soon.

All the questions I have for now but I'm sure more will come up.


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## swk (Mar 16, 2010)

1 - Look like ilangi to me. Nice looking group at that

2 - I prefer to qt at least 2 weeks. If you didn't add them to an existing tank with an established population, then I would not worry about it. Keep a close eye on them and be SURE to have metro and clout on hand just in case

3 - A ph of 8 is plenty high enough. Stability is the key, not "perfect" parameters. Wild fish can spawn at even lower ph than 8. Best thing to do is to keep it simple and get out of the way. I don't even add any salt of any kind to my tank. Only exception is on a short term basis to help heal wounds, etc.

4 - I would be content with 20 in a 90 gal. You could add more, but not many. Also, do it sooner than later. The longer this group is in there, the stronger the group dynamics and hierarchy will be established. Adding new fish will disrupt this and can lead to increased aggression and/or deaths.

Have fun with your group! Trophs are amazing, active, and addictive fish


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## des (Mar 30, 2011)

All day yesterday and today, they are pacing the tank. They appear to be more comfortable with the lights off. I've only given them about half hour of light this morning when I took the photos with my phone. They still need time to settle in.

*swk* Thank you for the kind words and yes you got the right variant! Before this group I grew out a group of Kasakalawes to sub-adult. I enjoyed them very much as well and still want to carry the same upkeep practices...ie. clean water, metro on hand, feed little but frequently, etc.

I appreciate the advice and you sharing your experience.


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## Morpheen (Jul 21, 2010)

Beautiful colony you got there. Trophs are awesome


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

Great looking fish, Des! =D>

I agree with SWK's responses to your questions.

Regarding the quarantine, are you thinking of adding some of your existing fish to this group?

I would keep the lights off for the first few days and not feed till tomorrow.


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## des (Mar 30, 2011)

Morpheen said:


> Beautiful colony you got there. Trophs are awesome


Thank you



zimmy said:


> Regarding the quarantine, are you thinking of adding some of your existing fish to this group?


Thank you zimmy. No, they get their own tank to themselves.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

Nice looking Ilangi. That's the second group that I have seen in T.O reccently.
Are they from SFTL ?


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## smitty (May 7, 2004)

They look good. Now after a few weeks on your regime they will look stunning.


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## des (Mar 30, 2011)

noddy said:


> Nice looking Ilangi. That's the second group that I have seen in T.O reccently.
> Are they from SFTL ?


No, SFTL presold all theirs. I had another contact import them in but dealt with the same distributor.


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## des (Mar 30, 2011)

smitty said:


> They look good. Now after a few weeks on your regime they will look stunning.


Thanks smitty. I sure hope so. This evening I have a few that are still pacing but the majority are now swimming freely across the tank.


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## des (Mar 30, 2011)

Here is a little update. I noticed some spawn action last week. The female held for about 10 days and I decided to strip her this evening. I managed to strip 6 without having to put stress on her. I will have to tumble for about 19 days or so before they can free swim. Here are some photos. She may have held for longer than 10 days. I counted 10 days from the day I saw her holding.


























And of course proud pappa.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

Congratulations, Des! Great photographs too.


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## Morpheen (Jul 21, 2010)

Congrats! That didn't take them long to settle in and start spawing.


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## des (Mar 30, 2011)

Thanks.

Here are photo updates of the F1 fry.


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## mysterycichlids2 (May 11, 2012)

Nice fish and congratulations on the breeding! What does DOA mean?


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## Morpheen (Jul 21, 2010)

DOA = dead on arrival


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## Jolly cichlids (Jun 19, 2009)

i have a question des how many fry are showing broken bars in your fry.


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## reflections (Jan 6, 2012)

Very nice fish 4 certain Beauties.


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## des (Mar 30, 2011)

Jolly cichlids said:


> i have a question des how many fry are showing broken bars in your fry.


What's considered a broken bar? All of them have black parallel stripes that run vertically . I can take a look tonight and snap more photos and we can take a look together here. What's your opinion on the bars?


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## Jolly cichlids (Jun 19, 2009)

In the fry pics there is fused bars as well. The broken bars are appearing near the gill plates but what is more concerning is the fused bars. What i mean by fused bars is in your fry pics there is bars that start as one and turn into two. There is also bars that run side by side and join together. The barring should be crisp not broken and never touch. Your fish are showing someone in the group who produced the fry has hidden genetic deformities. I am starting to assume most of these new ilangi that are popping out every corner are pond bred mass produced not true wild. They don't have that bright yellow of old now their orange just how your are coloring. Their also has been suggestion that chilanga reds are crossing with ilangi to make this orange coloration.


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## Jolly cichlids (Jun 19, 2009)

also it is up to the importers and exporters to not sell these orange ilangi. Just because their is high demand and a buck to be made doesn't mean they should be sold to ruin the true ilangi population here already. I commend Steve from Valley Aquatic for no longer bringing them in keep it up Steve hopefully the others will follow suit.


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## des (Mar 30, 2011)

What you are saying make sense. It's too bad the 'good' quality you speak about is no where to be purchased. This was the best opportunity that was available to me. I personally love Ilangis so I am satisfied with them whether they are up to par or not.


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## des (Mar 30, 2011)

Unless you jump in the lake and catch your own fish you will never know where they truly come from.


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## Jolly cichlids (Jun 19, 2009)

heres a vid of some old school ilangi wish these were being imported
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv4Djt8b ... r_embedded 
now back to the fry and parents whats done is done and now you have them enjoy them, but any with broken or fused bars cull. This is what i'd do to ensure better genetics some of the nice looking ones might still have underlying deformities but then at least your making an attempt to raise the best.

best regards :thumb: 
Brandon


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## gbin (Jun 11, 2012)

Jolly cichlids said:


> ... The barring should be crisp not broken and never touch. Your fish are showing someone in the group who produced the fry has hidden genetic deformities...


I mean no disrespect, Brandon, but where can evidence be found and reviewed supporting your stance on this? It might make sense to des (lovely fish - including fry - by the way! :thumb: ), but I've formally studied and professionally worked in the area of small population biology as it pertains to captive animal breeding programs, and it doesn't make sense to me. I'd have to see substantiation to believe it.



Jolly cichlids said:


> ... any with broken or fused bars cull. This is what i'd do to ensure better genetics some of the nice looking ones might still have underlying deformities but then at least your making an attempt to raise the best.


Culling a captive animal stock for apparent deficiencies in fitness makes sense, of course. But selecting for or against a specific appearance for which there is no concrete evidence of a relationship to fitness does not, at least not in terms of genetic health. In truth, all of us and all of our animals carry some amount of potential for heritable problems (such as deformities). These potential problems become real problems more readily as a captive stock's gene pool shrinks, and selecting animals based purely on their looks will most certainly shrink a captive stock's gene pool.

I'd suggest not culling the fry or any other age of the fish based solely on their coloration or pattern (unless the goal is to develop a strain with a certain look, which certainly isn't about genetic health), but instead cull them based on actual problems if/when such problems appear.

Gerry


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## aprildawn (Sep 8, 2010)

Dead on arrival


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

well said gbin.


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## adesh8028 (Feb 4, 2012)

mysterycichlids2, DOA is death on arrival.

des, congo on the fry. BTW, its time to update the thread with the progress


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## Fishy_Cichlid (Aug 4, 2011)

I am not sure, it could be called a deformity. Genetics play an important role but deformities is something IMO, what we label them as. For Ex. we dont like mooning in Cyphotilapia's. However, WC's too show mooning, its just that they aren't exported. So not really a deformity, rather an exception.


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## des (Mar 30, 2011)

Jolly cichlids said:


> heres a vid of some old school ilangi wish these were being imported
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv4Djt8b ... r_embedded
> now back to the fry and parents whats done is done and now you have them enjoy them, but any with broken or fused bars cull. This is what i'd do to ensure better genetics some of the nice looking ones might still have underlying deformities but then at least your making an attempt to raise the best.
> 
> ...


Hey Brandon. I've watched this video before; many times. As a matter of fact, this video is one of the reasons I was inspired to keep Ilangis. It's not easy to find. I don't agree with culling the fry. They are eating and swimming which to me means they are healthy. We can't all be models right?


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## Jolly cichlids (Jun 19, 2009)

ok we can talk scientific definitions

purebred: Of or belonging to a recognized strain established by breeding individuals of unmixed lineage over many generations for desirable traits

So we've established you have ilangi(nkamba bay) which is recognized strain but also that there is undesirable traits which the fry have.

Mutation: A change in the structure of the genes or chromosomes of an organism. Mutations occurring in the reproductive cells, such as an egg or sperm, can be passed from one generation to the next. Most mutations occur in junk DNA and have no discernible effects on the survivability of an organism. Of the remaining mutations, the majority have harmful effects, while a minority can increase an organism's ability to survive. A mutation that benefits a species may evolve by means of natural selection into a trait shared by some or all members of the species.

So you guys are saying these mutations in the pattern are ok! These mutations in the DNA will be passed on from generation to generation, Plus i never said this culling was for health reasons its for raising genetically superior fish. If i was raising these fish and saw that there was abnormalities in my fish i would not just turn a blind eye and say their great because their swimming around and eating. If i was to take an educated guess i'd say the probability that these fry will pass their mutation along is very high.


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## des (Mar 30, 2011)

Jolly cichlids said:


> So you guys are saying these mutations in the pattern are ok! These mutations in the DNA will be passed on from generation to generation, Plus i never said this culling was for health reasons its for raising genetically superior fish. If i was raising these fish and saw that there was abnormalities in my fish i would not just turn a blind eye and say their great because their swimming around and eating. If i was to take an educated guess i'd say the probability that these fry will pass their mutation along is very high.


Obviously, you and along with others have been in this hobby longer than I have. Have you actually experienced raising fry with these "deformities" and witness unpleasant appearance? You have to understand that these are my first few fry from the adult group. I'm excited and grateful for even having any to be honest. I want to raise them and see for myself.

Brandon, if you're a fish breeder it sounds like all your fish are top notch.


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## gbin (Jun 11, 2012)

Jolly cichlids said:


> So we've established... that there is undesirable traits which the fry have.


I've no interest in arguing with you about this stuff, Brandon (and please remember that it's nothing personal), but... no, I'm afraid that hasn't been established at all. All we've established is that some of des' fry display some broken/fused bars in their color pattern, and that *you* consider it to be an abnormality resulting from an undesirable mutation. For my part I see no reason to consider the trait abnormal or undesirable, and it seems much more likely to me to be the result of genetic variation already present in the original wild animal stock rather than a mutation that just occurred in captivity.

Also, if health reasons are not a factor, what's genetically superior is truly in the eye of the beholder. You can understand that des or someone else might prefer a different look or even greater variation in look among their fry than you do, right? Especially when it's not at all clear how those fry might end up looking as adults? Who knows, des' fry might just end up being the most gorgeous Ilangi any of us have ever seen. And even if they don't, well, "different strokes for different folks," right? In any event, if one is going to select animals for appearance aside from any actual health issues, it makes much more sense to select them as adults; des can always enjoy raising those fry and decide later whether to cull any of them based on their looks.

One last thing: If you're going to post material to the message board that comes from other sources, you really should cite those sources so that no one mistakenly thinks that you wrote it yourself. I'm sure that you don't want to plagiarize anyone.

Gerry


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