# Help Please! Red Kadango Cross Breeding?



## Fahd (Aug 13, 2006)

Hi there, I have a Haplochromis Borleyi (Red Kadango) who seems to have just bred with one of my female Alunocaras (or what I previously assumed was an alunocara, either way I am sure it is not a female red kadango). The female is now mouth-brooding. Could anyone please help me by identifying the female? will the eggs successfully fertilise with this cross-breeding?

I have posted some photos of the pair to try and help:

MALE:










FEMALE:




























Apologies for the incredibly poor photos, they were taken with my phone... 

Many thanks for any help!


----------



## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

yes it is possible. female does look like an Aulonocara, but it is hard to identify females for sure as it is, even with a good picture. The babies will be undesirable hybrids.


----------



## Fahd (Aug 13, 2006)

noki said:


> yes it is possible. female does look like an Aulonocara, but it is hard to identify females for sure as it is, even with a good picture. The babies will be undesirable hybrids.


Thanks for the swift reply. By undesirable do you mean unheatlthy in any way? or simply because they aren't 'pure-breeds'? I am aware of the implications of keeping hybrids and if I do keep these I'll be sure to only keep them myself in their own tank rather than try to sell them off to a shop keeper and risk further damaging our fishes gene-pool.

Does anyone know what they may look like? I was unaware that Alunocara were physically capable of cross-breeding with red kadangos to be honest...


----------



## TKC747 (Dec 5, 2008)

I've been told any malawi cichlid can cross breed with any other malawi cichlid, I've even heard of old world cichlids hybridizing with new world cichlids in rare instances...go figure


----------



## Fahd (Aug 13, 2006)

TKC747 said:


> I've been told any malawi cichlid can cross breed with any other malawi cichlid, I've even heard of old world cichlids hybridizing with new world cichlids in rare instances...go figure


Really? I find that highly unlikely to be honest, just to add to this, do you guys think the fry will be read to be stripped after 18 days? I really don't want to risk the female releasing the fry into the tank as I am sure the older fish will end up eating them all, as well as that I want to keep a seperate tank for hyrbids as I have a feeling there may be other hybrids from this tank to come.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Yes, you can strip after 18 days.

And, yes, any mouthbrooding cichlid can hybridize with any other mouthbrooding cichlid.

You might give a bit of thought to future plans at this point. If you have a stock list that is likely to hybridize and want to keep all the fry, you're going to need alot of grow out tanks for the fry. Wouldn't it be more pleasurable to have those extra tanks full of quality fry that you can trade or sell?

There is alot of time and work involved in growing out fry. Lots of water changes, and you will need different size tanks to move them to as they grow. The behaviour of hybrids can be very unpredictable, as well, so that's something to think about as far as tank size goes for the adults.


----------



## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

cichlidaholic said:


> And, yes, any mouthbrooding cichlid can hybridize with any other mouthbrooding cichlid.


I wonder why this surprises so many folks... Fahd, can you share why it surprises you?

I.e. what was the basis for your doubt?

It might help me out the next time I reply to someone with this info... thanks.


----------



## Fahd (Aug 13, 2006)

Thanks again for all the advice.

Cichlidaholic, you clearly seem knowledgable about the subject, I understand where you are coming from when you ask whether or not it's worth my time but the reason I may well keep the fry is because I happen to have a fair few tanks and equipment lying about just begging to be used which has been passed down by friends/family who have given up on the hobby due to lack of time etc. and even though it may seem a bit selfish of me but I am generally curious about the outcome of this breeding, I will however ensure that the fish never get passed on to anyone else other than possibly a few trustworthy friends to whom I'll be sure to give full disclosure regarding the cocktail of genetics the fish contain.

Number6, it suprises me that all mouth-brooders can cross breed because I assumed there would be a mis-match in genetic compatibility; are you for example implying that I could in theory breed my 13" Butterkoferi with one of my female Alunocaras if I put her in his tank?

Can anyone make an estimate based on previous experience on how I could expect the spawn to look once they have grown? would you guess they'd look more dominantly like the Haplochromis or the Alunocara?

All advice is appreciated as always... :thumb:


----------



## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Fahd said:


> Number6, it suprises me that all mouth-brooders can cross breed because I assumed there would be a mis-match in genetic compatibility;


but what was the basis of this assumption?



Fahd said:


> are you for example implying that I could in theory breed my 13" Butterkoferi with one of my female Alunocaras if I put her in his tank?


 Cichlidaholic is overgeneralizing slightly when she says "all" as I do know of some species that mouthbrood that ARE not closely enough related to produce live offspring.

But... looking strictly at a numbers thing, it is far less common for two mouthbrooders to NOT be able to produce live offspring than it is to find ones that can.

In your specific example, I'd say there are some important non-genetic barriers that would kick in long before the genetic ones would... but then I would also assume some genetic barriers since these are not closely related at all...


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Fahd, I just wanted to make sure you knew what you were in for as far as raising the hybrids, i.e. tank space, extra work as far as maintenance goes, etc...

I certainly wasn't implying that you shouldn't do what you plan to do, as you seem knowledgeable about the impact that these hybrids can have on the hobby should they leave your tanks.

I guess I'd just rather put the work and effort into something that I am able to give away or sell. :thumb:

As far as speculating on how these hybrids will look, some may look just like either species, and some may be noticeably crossed. It's impossible to say. The problem is that should they take on female traits of the peacock, they're not going to be very attractive. I'm sure you will see some that take on traits of the male peacock and the male involved in the spawn.


----------



## Fahd (Aug 13, 2006)

> but what was the basis of this assumption?


I'm no geneticist but I just assumed due to the fact that many mouthbrooders look different to other species that also mouthbrood , thus I (wrongly) assumed that because they are physically different their genetics wouldn't be similar enough and therefore they wouldn't be able to successfully breed (even if they attempt it). My general 'rule' was those that look similar maybe be able to cross-breed but those that are of a totally different species yet possibly come from the same lake wouldn't be able to breed. I hope that gives you sufficient insight as to why 'we that ask' might assume such a thing.

Thanks for the replies guys, I guess now I just play the waiting game before catching her and stripping the fry. 4 days down, 14 to go. I just hope she doesn't get too hungry before then and swallow them...


----------



## TKC747 (Dec 5, 2008)

Fahd, do a google search for "hybrid cichlids" if it interests you as it does me  
url:http://www.google.com/search?source...-8&rlz=1T4DKUS_enUS285US285&q=hybrid+cichlids


----------



## Jason S (Feb 7, 2003)

You must consider a few things to understand why many species of mouthbrooding cichlids will not only spawn with different species but will produce fertile hybrids.

1. A general working definition of a "species" says a species consists of populations of similar organisms sharing a distinct gene pool IN NATURE.

2. In nature a species maintains a distinct gene pool by reproductive isolating mechanisms. These mechanism may include barriers to fertilization between two separate species such as incompatible anatomy, chemically incompatible gametic [egg & sperm] cells, timing of reproduction [e.g. seasonal, day/night], geographical separation, etc.. and barriers that prevent survival or maturity of any fertilization that occurs such as non-viable or sterile offspring.

The key part of the above says a species have reproductive isolation IN NATURE; our aquariums no matter how large or how closely matching the chemical and physical habitat, are not nature. We routinely keep mature cichlid variants that would never meet in nature in artificially small spaces without adequate numbers of each sex.

The fact CAPTIVE Rift Lake cichlid species produce hybrid offspring is not particularly extraordinary as there are many captive species able to produce hybrid and sometimes fertile hybrid offspring [look here for a few examples: http://www.hemmy.net/2006/06/19/top-10-hybrid-animals/ ].

The evolution [adaptive radiation] of the Rift Lake cichlid species flocks is a more [geologically] recent phenomena and as such there are FEWER reproductive isolating mechanisms among cichlid species. In recent studies, Seehausen and his colleagues have demonstrated reproductive isolation in Lake Victoria cichlids depends largely upon visual cues such that females identify the correct mates by shape and color. Coincidentally they suggest the ongoing eutrophication, because of increased nutrients due to human's influence in the lake basin, resulting in reduced transparency of the water may be responsible for widespread hybridization of many of the Lake's remaining rock-dwelling cichlids.

It rapidly becomes apparent to most cichlid hobbyists there are no absolute barriers preventing fertilization or viability of cross-species hybridization in the aquarium. These hybrids are most often fertile. The problem with hybrids is predicting behavior and appearance of their offspring is not possible. Somebody paying a premium to raise juvenile fish that bear resemble to their wild counterparts or make quality breeding stock would rather avoid these mutts.

Keeping species of different genera, in aquariums correctly sized for their needs, and having both mature males and females of each species in the aquarium tends to limit the likelihood of producing hybrid offspring among Rift Lake cichlids


----------



## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Fahd said:


> I hope that gives you sufficient insight as to why 'we that ask' might assume such a thing.


 it does! Thanks!

Great post Jason... your mamallian hybrid link is cute, but there are fertility issues in some of those crosses which might actually confuse folks into thinking that hybrid= infertile.

It can mean fertility issues, but that has more to do with complexity of each parental species and differences between both parentals...

there are tons of more unassuming hybrids that have no fertility issues.


----------



## thevein (May 10, 2006)

IMHO, put the hybrids to sleep. If you died tomorrow, God forbid, someone would give all of your fish away probably.........right? Bingo, the hobby has just become poluted with more mutt fish even though you had the best intentions.


----------



## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

thevein said:


> IMHO, put the hybrids to sleep. If you died tomorrow, God forbid, someone would give all of your fish away probably.........right? Bingo, the hobby has just become poluted with more mutt fish even though you had the best intentions.


 

somehow, I don't think anyone is going to care about little hybrid cichlid fishes in that scenario... I for one won't care about the impact to the hobby in THAT specific scenario.

perhaps we want to stay on the topic of hybrid fish and the less on the morbid, rare, and extreme scenarios?


----------



## Fahd (Aug 13, 2006)

thevein said:


> IMHO, put the hybrids to sleep. If you died tomorrow, God forbid, someone would give all of your fish away probably.........right? Bingo, the hobby has just become poluted with more mutt fish even though you had the best intentions.


Luckily for me fish-keeping is a family hobby at home, thus all the other members in my family at home are aware of the situation, rest-assured the fish will never reach any mainstream tanks. 



> perhaps we want to stay on the topic of hybrid fish and the less on the morbid, rare, and extreme scenarios?


Haha! it was a bit of a random fabricated-situation wasn't it?

5 days down, 13 to go! I'm a little worried that she isn't going to last that long, get hungry and eat the fry  Does this happen a lot? she has started swimming upto food when it is put in the tank for the others to eat but she approaches the food and then swims away. :-?


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I usually remove holding moms to another tank if I really want to keep the fry. This way, they aren't tempted by the food, and aren't as likely to swallow or spit them early due to stress from the other fish.

First time moms will sometimes give up and not hold to full term the first few tries, but they usually get it right eventually.


----------



## Fahd (Aug 13, 2006)

cichlidaholic said:


> I usually remove holding moms to another tank if I really want to keep the fry. This way, they aren't tempted by the food, and aren't as likely to swallow or spit them early due to stress from the other fish.
> 
> First time moms will sometimes give up and not hold to full term the first few tries, but they usually get it right eventually.


Thanks for letting me know, she has kept them so far anyway  . Just a quick question, I have realised that the 18th day will be a Monday, I'm usually reasonably busy on week days, so I wanted to ask, would it be reasonably safe to strip the female on the 17th day instead? thanks for any replies, as always.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

That should be okay. Fry develop quicker in warmer settings, so you might bump up the temperature in her tank for a few days. (Around 80 degrees F is good...)


----------



## Fahd (Aug 13, 2006)

Hey again guys, just thought I'd let you all know that I stripped the female of the fry today. It was half a day ahead of plan but the fish all seem to be great & I got a little over 30 fry!  I put them in their own tank using water & sand from the parents tank and they are all swimming around happily which is a joy to watch.

I just fed them too (I crushed flake-food to minimal size) and they were more than willing to swallow it up. I'm very pleased with them at the moment it really is a joy to have fry.

I have a photo (albeit a rather poor one) of a small amount the fry if you'd like to see it...










Just one more question; considering the male is a Red Kadango & the female is an Alunocara is it possible any of the fry will turn out to be the oppisite of their parent counterparts.

For example could I end up with a colourful male Alunocara? or a fish that looks exactly like a female Red Kadango? I assume it's unlikely but nevertheless I thought I'd ask.

Many thanks to everyone who gave me advice in this thread! :thumb:


----------



## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

some cross breeds might get the best out of the crossing... it's possible. 
It's not frequent, but entirely possible.

Why are you keeping all 30? what will you do with 30 adult hybrids one day? have a tank of 30 of these guys? Just curious...


----------



## Fahd (Aug 13, 2006)

Number6 said:


> some cross breeds might get the best out of the crossing... it's possible.
> It's not frequent, but entirely possible.
> 
> Why are you keeping all 30? what will you do with 30 adult hybrids one day? have a tank of 30 of these guys? Just curious...


I have a fair few spare tanks, so yes.


----------



## Fahd (Aug 13, 2006)

Just to update this thread the fry have gotten a fair bit larger and almost all of them that have coloured up and so far look just like a regular Red Kadango juvenile would; silver bodies with orange fins whilst a few of them have striped bodies but they aren't all big enough to actually know how they'll turn out.

The pair bred again but this time the mother only had 4 fry when I went to strip her which was fine to be honest as there are enough as it is. The pair of Taiwan Reef I have in my tank have also bred and the female has been holding for two days so should have lots of Taiwan Reef fry soon too. 

Thanks for looking & I'll post some pictures when the fry are big enough to actually be seen properly to take a good photo of them.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Fahd said:


> Just to update this thread the fry have gotten a fair bit larger and almost all of them that have coloured up and so far look just like a regular Red Kadango juvenile would; silver bodies with orange fins whilst a few of them have striped bodies but they aren't all big enough to actually know how they'll turn out.


For some reason I can't open page one of this thread so that I can read back over it, but you are aware that just because they appear to be pure, this doesn't mean they _are_ pure.


----------



## Fahd (Aug 13, 2006)

cichlidaholic said:


> Fahd said:
> 
> 
> > Just to update this thread the fry have gotten a fair bit larger and almost all of them that have coloured up and so far look just like a regular Red Kadango juvenile would; silver bodies with orange fins whilst a few of them have striped bodies but they aren't all big enough to actually know how they'll turn out.
> ...


I am aware, thanks. I just assumed they would look more like a cross of the two rather than dominantly have the physical traits of the male species. Thanks for letting me know just in case though... :thumb:


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

You might want to read through this thread for informational purposes...

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... p?t=188553


----------

