# Cyp wasting



## JohnnyW (Jan 10, 2010)

I bought some 16 cyps and had 6 die one by one. At first they all ate NLS 0.3mm Growth formula, then some bit but spat out the pellets. Gradually they stopped eating and they die. I always suspected it was some kind of parasite or something beyond my control (water is fine). I put the cyps in a tank with a lot of other fish but they didn't catch this wasting disease. Odd I thought.

Recently I had some cyp fry, and I began to feed them a fine fry powder I bought for them. I was bored and threw a chunk of it in the main tank. I found it more entertaining to watch the cyps eat powder than NLS pellets. After about a week, 3 of my cyps that refused NLS pellets started eating again! One took 2 days to adjust, another took a little more than a week.

I found it surprising that this information hasn't been brought up more often when I was googling like a fiend on cyp wasting. Perhaps some of them waste away because their pharyngeal teeth can no longer process small pellets? I find this kind of odd because even very small one inch fry will accept and eat NLS.

Regardless, it's a huge relief to see them eat, even more so to see them chase eagerly after a speck of powder.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I kind of doubt that the pellets were the problem. I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. My cyps eat grow pellets just fine.


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## punman (Oct 24, 2003)

I have successfully kept frontosas, E kilesa. compressiceps, C. foai sibwesa, tropheus, and cyprichromis.
For some reason cyps seem to be the most difficult. I cannot answer your question but I occasionally get unexplained deaths of adults and lose more fry in the first month with cyps than with others from Lake Tanganyika. They seem to need smaller size food than other fish of the same size.


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## ssondubs (Nov 16, 2008)

If pellets are you choice food NLS Grow works great. They accept the Grow formula more readely over the Cichlid formula even as Adults. I also have had great success with "Aquatrol: Spirulina 20 flake food" that I finely crush. When using pellets or flake I use a floating food ring that I stick on the front glass panel of the tank. The food ring corals the food and let's it sink so the fish have a easier time stuffing their faces versus swiming throughout the tank in search for food.

A friend of mine had somewhat of the same problem that came from melnurishment, I recommended my method and purchased some NLS "Grow" for his fish and he said they are devouring their food now.

Good luck to you :fish:


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Goiter. In fish it's called big head disease. Tissue that is analogous to our thyroid in the presence of an iodine deficiency starts to grow in order to try to do its job without an essential nutrient. As it grows the fish's throat is compressed so it can only eat smaller and smaller particles until it can't swallow at all. As the fish wastes away, it's head remains large so that explains the name big head disease. If the fish can eat, switch to foods containing ocean sourced nutrition, krill, seaweed, whole ocean fish, etc. If they can't eat the only choice is to dose with iodine. The safest way is to pick a reef iodine product and follow the directions and dosage for a reef aquarium. Lake Tanganyika is unusual in that it has more iodine concentration than the ocean does. I always dose my Tan tanks with reef iodine, or feed nori or krill. Tan fry tanks are always given the reef tank dosage very meticulously because fast growing fish are much more prone to Big Head. The effect on young Tropheus, Ophthalmotilapia, and cyps is the most dramatic.


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

nice Mcdaphnia.

I have found cyps to be some of the most hardy of my collection, unless you count hipping. I recently ordered 8 tricolors, they arrived within 12 hours of their ship time, and all were alive when they arrived (1 was barely hanging on)... after acclimation, I only have 3. No wonder these guys are $30 in the shops, the lfs has to make up for all the doa fish.


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## borohands8593 (Apr 15, 2009)

I reciieved 9 unita fry at about an inch and 3 months later all are still alive. I feed the NLS grow, variety of flake, and occasionly crushed krill pellets and frozen brine shrimp. They all eat very vigrously to this day except one little female that hasnt grown to much and looks like she is starting to waste away. If I can keep 8 of the 9 healthy and alive then Im more than happy hearing all the horror stories of the high deathrates with acclimating these fish!


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## TRENT_G (Jun 24, 2008)

How did you acclimate them?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I bought 30 cyp leptosoma mamalesa about two months ago same day air and have fed nothing but NLS grow. All are doing well. No signs of wasting. I net and dump all my fish when they arrive, keep lights out for 24 hours, and don't feed until 2nd day.

On the other hand, I received a n. toae from another source that died with the same symptoms as McDaphnia described. I'm sure it began at the source because I noticed it soon after it arrived. Big head, skinny below the head. It tried to eat and would snap at the food, but acted as though it couldn't locate it properly although I know it could see as it responded to me just like the other fish. It eventually succumbed. Wish I had known about the iodine deficiency problem, as I would have tried the iodine. There's a chance that a cheap food was being fed that was deficient in iodine and possibly this disease begins at the source. We get fish in the beginning, yet not real visible stages of it. I wasn't real impressed in a couple of other areas with this source either, so I think it all goes back to that. On the upside, the other toae are doing fine. So, why some and not others?


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## JohnnyW (Jan 10, 2010)

Mcdaphnia said:


> Goiter. In fish it's called big head disease. Tissue that is analogous to our thyroid in the presence of an iodine deficiency starts to grow in order to try to do its job without an essential nutrient. As it grows the fish's throat is compressed so it can only eat smaller and smaller particles until it can't swallow at all. As the fish wastes away, it's head remains large so that explains the name big head disease. If the fish can eat, switch to foods containing ocean sourced nutrition, krill, seaweed, whole ocean fish, etc. If they can't eat the only choice is to dose with iodine. The safest way is to pick a reef iodine product and follow the directions and dosage for a reef aquarium. Lake Tanganyika is unusual in that it has more iodine concentration than the ocean does. I always dose my Tan tanks with reef iodine, or feed nori or krill. Tan fry tanks are always given the reef tank dosage very meticulously because fast growing fish are much more prone to Big Head. The effect on young Tropheus, Ophthalmotilapia, and cyps is the most dramatic.


This is intriguing, could you link me to where you got this information, I would like to find out more about it.


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## borohands8593 (Apr 15, 2009)

Is there iodine in NLS grow? I also use the seachem lake malawi/victoria buffer and add API aquarium salt occasionaly with a water change. Do either of these products contain the iodine needed? I only ask because if iodine defiency is the case with my small female than I will dose with iodine, otherwise Im afraid she may eventualy succumb to wasting.

My only fear is it will spread to the others, however the other 8 cyps are nice and fat and the males attempting their first breed daily with shaking and dancing. I also have 8 paracyps which seem to be growing slower but after feeding all their bellies are nice and full, however once again there is one small one which doesnt seem to have grown very much but does eat very well.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

borohands8593 said:


> Is there iodine in NLS grow? I also use the seachem lake malawi/victoria buffer and add API aquarium salt occasionaly with a water change. Do either of these products contain the iodine needed? I only ask because if iodine defiency is the case with my small female than I will dose with iodine, otherwise Im afraid she may eventualy succumb to wasting.
> 
> My only fear is it will spread to the others, however the other 8 cyps are nice and fat and the males attempting their first breed daily with shaking and dancing. I also have 8 paracyps which seem to be growing slower but after feeding all their bellies are nice and full, however once again there is one small one which doesnt seem to have grown very much but does eat very well.


NLS Grow has krill meal as one of the main ingredients which is a good source of iodine. Saltwater mixes such as Reef Crystals and Instant Ocean contain iodine as one of the trace elements. There could be genetic or social reasons why one fish lags behind the other, but the toxicity of iodine is well above the theraputic dose, so it is safe to try. If it works for you, let me know. I've used different brands and they all seem equivalent.

Jim Langhammer, the retired curator of Belle Isle Aquarium, Detroit's now closed public aquarium, suggested dosing my Tanganyikan tanks and my Goodeid tanks with reef iodine. It made a dramatic difference in the growth and survival rate of fry, especially Tropheus, Ophthalmotilapia, and minnow cichlids. They grew faster and the proportions of the Tropheus looked better once you saw fry growing without the enlarged head area.

Some other guy and I sold Tropheus to the same large pet shop, and he undercut my price, so the shop sold his for several dollars less, but no one would buy his until mine were sold out. His were about the same size but a few months older, and in spite of that there was enough difference that the "public" could see it, not just me.

I had an old book that was a collection of scientific studies on the African Rift Lakes. One of them measured the mineral concentrations in the lakes and was done about 80 years ago before development and human activity had changed the lakes much. At that time the iodine concentration in Lake Tanganyika was higher than that of sea water. I have a personal library of over 300 aquarium related books, not including that one and a handful of others I once had that were "borrowed".


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

Search more on cyp wasting, there have been tons of discussions on it. I have kept reg cyps, jumbo cyps Cyp. micro's and paracyps and they all eat NLS 1mm pellets, crushed HBH (cichlid attack and 8 veggie), frozen mysis and cyclops-eze.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Is there iodine in NLS grow?


I posted the question over on the NLS forum and here's a link to their response.


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## alexlee04 (Jul 19, 2009)

I just got a group of cyps and there is one that is showing signs of wasting. Does anyone think that I can add iodine by just adding a teaspoon of iodized salt? Or would this not solve the iodine deficiency?


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## TorontoRaptorsFan (May 20, 2005)

What's worked well for me when raising Cyps is the following:

1) Keep on top of water changes! I sometimes keep my Cyps especially the Micro species in bare bottom tanks so it makes it easier to siphon up waste.

2) Make sure they're with compatible tankmates which won't stress them out. My Micros are usually in tanks with shelldwellers. Jumbos with Ventralis or Nasuta.

3) Use salts in the water.

4) I feed my Cyps NLS flake food, NLS growth pellets, and freeze dried brine shrimp


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

TorontoRaptorsFan said:


> What's worked well for me when raising Cyps is the following:
> 
> 1) Keep on top of water changes! I sometimes keep my Cyps especially the Micro species in bare bottom tanks so it makes it easier to siphon up waste.
> 
> ...


Good advice from TRF to follow. I could add some thoughts to each point but depending on your resources, it may be different for you.
1) My well water is close to rift lake conditions, very hard, pH stabilizes at 8.3 - 8.4 after degassing the CO2 that is in my aquifer, so that makes changing water easy and almost free, but change water.

2) If kept as a single species, you can let the cyps release fry in the tank and the fry will grow up with the adults. Any other cichlids with them and many other fish, and you would have to incubate the fry. Cyps that have hatched out in a tumbler are perfectly OK but they don't know about up and down and swim in any random orientation until they pick up on what the other fry I put them with are doing. Left to themselves they will take longer to figure out up and down, but by the time they are big enough to display or sell, you would never know they started out clueless.

3) Salts and/or reef additives esp. iodine are important with city water. Salts less so with hard alkaline well water.

4) Reasonable foods. I'd add Ken's and live daphnia to the list


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## alexlee04 (Jul 19, 2009)

I searched the illness section and found a thread from a while back where someone said that the problem was some sort of worm parasite. I gave the thread a bump to see if anyone had anymore recent information on the topic.

I'm going to try and treat my tanks tonight if I can find the right meds.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Someone also had success treating for gill flukes. Here's the thread, page 3 with the part about treating for gill flukes. You might want to read the whole thread. Doesn't appear to be any one treatment that works for everyone. One cured it with large water changes over the course of a month.


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## alexlee04 (Jul 19, 2009)

ok I treated with API Anti-Parasitic fish medication. After reading what was said in the link I am 99% sure that I have some sort of fluke worm infection. I am going to treat all my tanks and see what happens. I have a feeling that cyp wasting isn't caused by one particular thing and seems to be a reaction that is common with the species. This definitely has been a good learning experience for me though.









Here is the poor little guy.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

alexlee04 said:


> .... I have a feeling that cyp wasting isn't caused by one particular thing and seems to be a reaction that is common with the species. ....


 I could not agree more. Wasting is a symptom, not a diagnosis. When it is a dietary deficiency, it tends to affect every fish. Infection and being the bottom of the pecking order tend to affect victims one after the other.


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## SupeDM (Jan 26, 2009)

Mcdaphnia said:


> alexlee04 said:
> 
> 
> > .... I have a feeling that cyp wasting isn't caused by one particular thing and seems to be a reaction that is common with the species. ....
> ...


 That statement by Mcdaphnia is what I have seen anytime I have had a issue with this "Big Head Syndrome" 99% of the fish I have ever lost to this were females that were being stressed by the male. The rest of my losses were fish that were at the bottom of the pecking order in multiple species tanks. Usually within a day of the first fish dying the second will start to spit out food. Allways with me 1 fish at a time. I believe this is caused by a infection that most of our fish have a natural resistance to. However when severely stressed this immunity ceases and the infection takes over. I have seen it too many times to explain it any other way. The only way I have been able to stop it was Clout and deal with the losses that the treatment itself caused. like they say. "When in Doubt, Clout it out!!!. This is a symptom of a disease and stress not just a disease itself.


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