# Search for high protein staple....rant about food :)



## newbiechick (Apr 2, 2009)

I'm growing out my first SA cichlid (a GT/acara mix) and have been looking beyond the standard Hikari/NLS route, which I give to my Mbuna.

I've looked at a lot of staple pellets and they all seem to be slight variations of the same thing.
For eg, Hikari Excel and Gold are pretty much identical ingredient and analysis wise yet one is supposedly for herbivores while the other is for carnivores.
I don't understand why most of it is packed with wheat gluten,rice etc.and yet is supposed to be good for the fish.

NLS seems to heads above Hikari but the protein and fat content seems to be mainly geared towards avoiding bloat in African cichlids.

As for supplementing with blackworms, krill etc. I've looked at freeze dried black worms with really high protein and fat content but whether freeze dried food actually has any nutrient value is doubtful. Now frozen bloodworms on the other hand might be nutritionally better, but only have 8% protein and around 90% moisture.

Thanks for bearing with me :lol: my question: Is there any high protein (60% up) and nutritionally balanced staple that would be good for growth as well as regular diet?


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

How about buying live black worms or brine shrimp. A few LFS up here sell them.

As for moisture content. Well remember humans are, what 65% or 70% water anyway. I would imagine many animals have similar numbers.


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## gnomemagi (Jun 13, 2009)

The freeze drying process retains and keeps the nutrient content of the food - thats the major point of freeze drying most foods (i.e, why astronauts have freeze dried foods in space).


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

There are other factors involve---not just protein vs fat content. The type of protein used, other vitamins, etc. all play a part in the nutritional value/ digestibility of the food.

I'm not sure what you are exactly looking for in a staple diet that you won't find in NLS or Hikari foods---both are among the best.

I can recommend several good supplements though, that will really help grow your fish.

1) Frozen Mysis shrimp if the fish are small...and small pieces of frozen grocery store shrimp if your fish are a bit larger.

2) Earthworms cut to size.

3) Hikari sinking carnivore pellets...great as a supplement for rapid growth.

Personally I greatly vary the diet....I feed at least 5-6 different foods routinely(including NLS and Hikari). I feed in smaller amounts than most people---because I'm not trying to grow the largest fish possible--just trying to keep them colorful, long-lived, and healthy. I feed only 4-5 times per week...I feed several times a day if I'm trying to grow out the fish.


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## newbiechick (Apr 2, 2009)

Thanks for the input guys...I wasn't picking on Hikari per se, but looking at the ingredients and finding wheat gluten, rice bran, etc. as the main ones just annoyed me.
I'll definitely be sticking to NLS as my main staple, just thought that there might be another one out there that eliminated the need to supplement.

As for the freeze dried, I think I might have bought a bad brand because the worms don't look like the Hikari ones in the can.
I'll look into the carnivore pellets and store shrimp oldcatfish, I'm feeding her 3-4 times a day so that should be alright.
Question though, what fully grown fish do you have that you're only feeding 4-5 times a week?
Wish I could do that with my mbuna, would make such a big difference in the water quality


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

newbiechick said:


> I'm growing out my first SA cichlid (a GT/acara mix) and have been looking beyond the standard Hikari/NLS route, which I give to my Mbuna.
> 
> I've looked at a lot of staple pellets and they all seem to be slight variations of the same thing.
> For eg, Hikari Excel and Gold are pretty much identical ingredient and analysis wise yet one is supposedly for herbivores while the other is for carnivores.
> ...


Beautiful thinker, here you go

Ultracolor low carb high protein, good lipids, more seafood...my search too ! Ultracolor vs. NLS ? NLS just ain't doing it as well as I want, for my altums. Low fat, low protein, and WHEAT ?...who says so? Oh, NLS says wheat is necessary for binder...third ingredient "necessary".

I hope to get my first try of Ultracolor this week. Reports coming in are good.
NLS


> Whole Antarctic Krill Meal, Whole Herring Meal, *Wheat Flour *, Whole Squid Meal, Algae Meal, Soybean Isolate. Beta Carotene, Spirulina, Garlic, Vegetable and Fruit Extract (Spinach, Broccoli, Red Pepper, Zucchini, Tomato, Pea, Red and Green Cabbage, Apple, Apricot, Mango, Kiwi, Papaya, Peach, Pear), Vitamin A Acetate, D-Activated Animal-Sterol (D3), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine, DL Alphatocophero ( E ), Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Niacin, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, L-Ascorby-2-Polyphosphate (Stable C), Ethylenediamine dihydroiodide, Cobalt Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Choline Chloride.


Ultracolor


> Quality Ingredients Make The Difference
> Guaranteed Analysis:
> Crude Protein (min) 54%, Crude Fat/Oil (min) 9%, Crude Fiber (max) 3%, Moisture (max) 10%
> 
> ...


nicer, eh ?

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... 74&start=0

Best regards,
Dave


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## newbiechick (Apr 2, 2009)

raglanroad said:


> Beautiful thinker, here you go


??? :lol:

I looked at your thread a few days ago actually, ingredients look good but how would I get it Aus?


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

Well, Canada is now refusing entry for Hikari product, so it's not all so easy here either !

Trying to ward off the Melamine-adding guys, the soy-sauce-made-of-human-hair folks, the tofu- made-from-sewage exporters, I suppose


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

I currently have only CA cichlids...but used to feed my Malawi (including mbuna) and Tanganyikans the same. Only juvenile cichlids really require daily feedings---adults don't.

The key is---make sure each fish gets some food at every feeding. Some will get a little more, just make sure the least dominant fish isn't starving.

I also supplement the food with a vitamin supplement once a week (it just seems to liven them up a bit), and I keep the temperature at the lower end of the appropriate range---abut 75 degrees. Also...in my mbuna tanks, I did encourage the growth of algae---a natural food supplement.

By the way, my fish usually live a very long time....almost always at least 10 years. I used to have about 20 aquariums up & running...now I only have 3. My oldest fish currently is a Synodontus Eupterus---I've had it since the late 1980's.

I do 1/3 water changes about once a week, and rarely ever have any disease problems.


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## Jago (Oct 5, 2007)

Search for high protein staple.....Earthworms, earthworms, and earthworms.

The protein content listed on a food's label is BS, period. The protein might not even be in a form usable by the fish.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

Jago said:


> Search for high protein staple.....Earthworms, earthworms, and earthworms.
> 
> The protein content listed on a food's label is BS, period. The protein might not even be in a form usable by the fish.


actually, the approximate protein content is determined through amount of nitrogen content, not protein. That's why melamine was used, to fool the test and get a listing for high protein. Best to look at the ingredient list in combination with the gross analysis, and don't bet your life on anything coming from China


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

I should clarify....I do have a Jewel cichlid and a Green Terror in with my CA's. Also Silver Dollars, Giant Danios, and assorted catfish species.


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## Jago (Oct 5, 2007)

raglanroad said:


> Best to look at the ingredient list in combination with the gross analysis, and don't bet your life on anything coming from China


Listed ingredients don't count for much either. How are we suppose to know if herring meal is good stuff or just skin, scale, and bones.

If you get great looking, long lived, happy breeding fish feeding just hikari, fantastic. That's all that matters. Just picked hikari as an example, feel free to replace it with any other brand.

Comparing foods by their labels just isn't going to tell you the results you will get.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

Jago said:


> raglanroad said:
> 
> 
> > Best to look at the ingredient list in combination with the gross analysis, and don't bet your life on anything coming from China
> ...


 That's the problem with "Fish Meal", with no fish named as to species. This is whole Herring meal. Same with Krill meal, they're small and used whole, whereas I understand Shrimp Meal is heads and exoskeleton parts.



> If you get great looking, long lived, happy breeding fish feeding just hikari, fantastic. That's all that matters. Just picked hikari as an example, feel free to replace it with any other brand.


 Some people think a 5 year old goldfish or 3 year old discus is old.



> Comparing foods by their labels just isn't going to tell you the results you will get.


 No, but it sure gives you a good idea.

Just got my Ultracolor . Smells real, finicky fish ate it greedily. I didn't taste it yet.


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## newbiechick (Apr 2, 2009)

Jago, when you say earthworms do you men feeding live earthworms? If so, that couldn't be a complete diet though right?

Good luck with the Ultracolor raglanroad...might try to get it shipped over here through a friend 

As for Hikari, I seriously don't know how it can be on the same level as NLS, OmegaOne, etc. and thats just by basic read through of the ingredients. But I guess its bee working for people as a sole staple for years so they swear by it. Since I've started only recently and bought it because of convenience, I don't have my loyalty set just yet


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

My fish generally have not liked Hikari anything very well. They like other brands of frozen foods better ( I can sympathize about the quality, all broken bits of shrimp ). they have become used to Hikari bloodworm, as there are not any real alternatives. Other bransdss of foods were much preferred..such as Golden Gate shrimp by Kordon. All the better brands are out of business, bought out, destroyed.

and for pellet food, forget it.


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## Jago (Oct 5, 2007)

newbiechick said:


> Jago, when you say earthworms do you men feeding live earthworms? If so, that couldn't be a complete diet though right?


Yup live earthworms. Supplement with the staple food of choice.

I don't know what they go for by you but here they are nice and cheap. During gardening I'll save the ones I come across but most of the time I get them from my local bait shop.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

Jago said:


> newbiechick said:
> 
> 
> > Jago, when you say earthworms do you men feeding live earthworms? If so, that couldn't be a complete diet though right?
> ...


my altums don't eat the red wigglers. haven't tried nightcrawlers with them though.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

You have to ask yourself, what are your goals with the food?

If you are looking for convenience and decent quality---most pellet food will be fine, especially if you use several different kinds and/or supplement with frozen/live foods.

If you want the largest, most long-lived fish possible, then you really can't rely on any commercial food, in my opinion. You need to feed a natural diet (appropriate live foods raised by you to ensure they are disease free), supplemented with a commercial food. Either that or make your own fish food--such as the DIY "European Shrimp Mix" that's used by a lot of well known cichlid keepers/breeders.


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## Blademan (Sep 20, 2008)

I use to have all kinds of bags, jars, and packages of food to give the "great variety". Now I just make my own. I still buy the bags, jars, and packages, but blend them together at the proportions I want. I freeze it, and shave it off to feed. I get great color and growth. My fish go bonkers over it. The only down side for me, is that it's hit or miss on feeding the same amount at each feeding. My concoction includes whole shrimp, krill, spirulina, hikari gold, and nls. All my fish get it- Africans, CA, SA, Catfish, just more or less often feedings, and amounts.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

Hehe,

If you want to spend absolutely incredible markup amount of $ for flour, and inferior ingredients, do buy Hikari Gold.

Fish meal, flaked corn, wheat flour, gluten meal, brewer's dried yeast, starch, enzyme, garlic, astaxantin, DL-methionine, monosodium glutamate, vitamins and minerals including stabilized vitamin C

Note the unidentified "Fish Meal"... no species name means *cheap* lowest quality available
Next is corn flakes. which is *cheap* even in the cereal aisle of your retail grocery
Then comes wheat flour, incdredibly *cheap* ingredient
and of course grain gluten meal for *cheap* protein rating
and starch, more *cheap* ingredient.

You can hardly get cheaper ingredients than Hikari uses here. Peope who buy for the name are buying an idea, a false idea, about the status of the name and quality. MSG ..does it taste better now ? Oh goody. We can make 10,000 % profit.

I see very little advantage in mixing inferior products in the hope of covering bases. It's much befter strategy to buy a single good product in the first place

the above kind of low grade food is available from Zeigler's for pennies a lb. Just remember, they were adulterating the foods with Melamine in the U.S.A. not in only in factories in China.
and most of the cheaply made brands are from this kind of source.

...44lb for $28

http://www.4fishstuff.com/product_info. ... a82f82ca91


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

repeat post


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## Glenbo (Aug 24, 2009)

Probbaly explians why my Green Terrors won't touch any Hikari product...


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## newbiechick (Apr 2, 2009)

That makes a lot of sense guys...I think I'm going to make my own and try to combine a bit of everything. Making it and freezing it won't be that much of an effort, atleast you know what you're getting.
Are there any other good recipes besides the the european shrimp mix?


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## auratum (Jul 6, 2006)

newbiechick said:


> That makes a lot of sense guys...I think I'm going to make my own and try to combine a bit of everything. Making it and freezing it won't be that much of an effort, atleast you know what you're getting.
> Are there any other good recipes besides the the european shrimp mix?


newbiechick - here is the recipe a buddy and I made a few weeks back - the fish love it and I liked the ingredients we put into it. It is a modified European shrimp mix recipe...

mddjr5 & auratum Cichlid Fish Food Recipe â€" August 25, 2009

Ingredients: 
2lbs tail on cooked shrimp - they were the cheapest
2lbs Salmon fillet (leftover from last fall's fishing trips) 
1 med/large beef heart deveined - got this when we got our side of beef
1lb Frozen Brocolli 
1lb Frozen chopped Spinach leaves 
1lbs Frozen peas 
1lbs Frozen cut carrots 
1 head of Garlic 
2 48oz. vegetable juice - like V8 
16 unflavored gelatin packets with 6 cups water - should have used more
~6 teaspoons Centrum liquid multivitamin/mineral supplement 
~2 Tbsp spirulina Powder 
~2 Tbsp freeze dried Cyclopeeze 
~ 1 Tbsp astaxanthin powder - similar to NatuRose used in Dainichi

Processing: 
Used meat grinder to process all meats and veggies 
Blended shrimp, salmon, & beef heart 
Blended vegetables 
Blended garlic cloves with vegetable juice, vitamins, & powdered color enhancers 
Mixed meat, veggies, garlic mix, & V8 together and blended again 
Mixed 16 packets of gelatin with 6 cups of water on medium heat 
Stirred ingredients into gelatin/water

Packaging: 
Scooped about 4 serving size spoonfuls into 24 ziploc bags 
laid bags flat (about 1/2" deep) and put in freezer

Observations: 
The consistency was similar to last batch. The color was very different as the astaxanthin mixed with the spirulina (red plus green makes brown) made it look like chili with no beans or as my wife said, it looked like diarrhea. The process took about +3 hours including clean-up.

The only thing I would change is to increase the amount of gelatin.

I am off to feed some to the fish right now!

Regards,
Patrick


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

I'm not sure why you keep referring to Hikari being made in China----I have 2 different pellet types of Hikari (sinking carnivore, sinking cichlid gold)....both are made in Japan according to the packages. Unless they changed things after I bought my packages.

And as for cheap ingredients....I've been keeping fish for years, and I've never noticed any difference with fish kept exclusively with NLS or with Hikari. And my fish readily accept Hikari pellets, as often as the do NLS.

That's why I don't feed only one type of food....I feed several different pellet foods (including Hikari, NLS, Omega One, etc.) along with several different frozen and freeze dried foods. Plus a vitamin supplement once a week. My fish live a very long time, are very colorful, spawn often, and rarely get sick. And I only feed 4-5 times a week.

An example of the diet that I feed a large predatory cichlid---- Hikari gold pellet, Hikari carnivore pellet, NLS large pellet, frozen shrimp, frozen pieces of Tilapia, freeze dried crickets or krill, live foods---earthworms, fry from a cichlid pair, etc.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

well, Hikari has been getting turned back at our borders by our food agency because of non compliance with our laws.

We want to see and inspect the Chinese sourced products but China is not complying


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Again...when did Hikari move their manufacturing to China? Both of the packages that I have right now state made in Japan. Are you sure that Hikari is getting turned away from your border due to manufacturing location/ ingredient issues...and not a tariff/ fair trade issue? I have seen the tariff issue happen with the US vs other countries before.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

Our new regulations are not only about where a food is manufactured, but where INGREDIENTS are sourced.
And it doesn;t matter where they're sourced if from the seller, to the maufacturere, soemwhere there is non compliance with our demand for information and inspection.


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## newbiechick (Apr 2, 2009)

Thats a pretty intense recipe *auratum* :lol: I'll definitely give it a try, although in those quantities it'll last me 2-3years 

My GT is now refusing to take anything Hikari, for now the staple is NLS along with some frozen stuff. I've ordered some ultracolor cichlid pellets as well *raglanroad*, should be interesting if I see any changes...


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## auratum (Jul 6, 2006)

newbiechick said:


> Thats a pretty intense recipe *auratum* :lol: I'll definitely give it a try, although in those quantities it'll last me 2-3years


You need more tanks and more fish. Split two ways this will only last us 3 months...


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## apistomaster (Jun 22, 2006)

Two of the most useful fish foods I have ever used are designed as breeder conditioning foods for the aquaculture of Channel Catfish and Tilapia.
These are Earth Worm and Spirulina Sticks.
I use these as the staple diet for all the fish I keep and breed which include wild Discus, many species of Hypancistrus and Peckoltia plecos, Apistogramma, Mesonauta, Tetras, and Corydoras species.

As aquaculture foods go these are expensive foods but compared to name brand Tropical fish foods go, these aquaculture foods are cheap. They have had considerable work put into their formulation since high productivity and a low bottom line really matters in commercial aquaculture.
The big outfits do not waste their money on inferior foods.

The fish I breed are generally not considered especially easy yet I have had excellent success. I do supplement the staple diet with frozen blood worms and live California Black Worms as there is no substitute for some fresh frrozen and live foods. I also use some Tetra Color Bits for variety.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

apistomaster said:


> I do supplement the staple diet with frozen blood worms and live California Black Worms as there is no substitute for some fresh frrozen and live foods.


Larry, do the big professional outfits also use live blackworm and frozen bloodworm ? I suspect the answer is a definite "no"...


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## apistomaster (Jun 22, 2006)

Public and commercial trout farms do go through a lot of live CBW but not so much the Tilapia and Channel Cat aquaculture businesses.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

the blackworms are raised on trout/salmon farm waste...not expensive purchases, but a good reclamation project..is that right ?


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## apistomaster (Jun 22, 2006)

I think the major supplier of California Black Worms, www.aquaticfoods.com, raises them using diverted river water and feeds them with trout chow. The water is prefiltered to minimize the chances of introducing parasites but they originally were raised as ragland described.
I think Dan describes his operation on his website.


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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

apistomaster said:


> I think the major supplier of California Black Worms, www.aquaticfoods.com, raises them using diverted river water and feeds them with trout chow. The water is prefiltered to minimize the chances of introducing parasites but they originally were raised as ragland described.
> I think Dan describes his operation on his website.


What I'm getting at, is that it would be a good idea for trout farmers to treat biowaste by worm culture, and naturally good disposal of waste, to feed the worms to the fish being farmed.

If commercial enterpises were buying blackworm to feed, rather than dealing with biowaste by that method, then your argument ( that the live food is essential. or not replaceable, as evidenced by the fact that they are fed by commercial enterprises), would be supported more strongly, than if they feed because it's part of getting rid of biowaste.


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## apistomaster (Jun 22, 2006)

Likely some trout hatcheries do use or have black worms in their down stream waste outlets but choose not to close the open ended system by harvesting worms possibly contaminated by upstream diseased runs. Safer to buy cultured worms as foods.


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## allan101 (Nov 11, 2009)

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## raglanroad (Sep 20, 2004)

apistomaster said:


> Likely some trout hatcheries do use or have black worms in their down stream waste outlets but choose not to close the open ended system by harvesting worms possibly contaminated by upstream diseased runs. Safer to buy cultured worms as foods.


 How could they manage to feed purchased clean blackworm at high cost and convert that into trout meat which in the end is worth a fraction the price of blackworm...


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## apistomaster (Jun 22, 2006)

Rag,
I would expect the commercial trout hatcheries only use the expensive black worms as an early stage food, say part of the diet of fish up to fingerlings. Fingerlings are often used to stock private and state run lake stocking programs like alpine lakes. This size may be dropped from aircraft in a bursting bag. Beyond fingerling size it would not be cost effective to feed black worms to grow out trout to catchable or retail food sized fish.

Dan, aquaticfoods.com, has told me that his largest customers are state run hatcheries so I believe him. It is also why I find discussions about the black worms in the context as disease vectors is nonsense.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

apistomaster said:


> Dan, aquaticfoods.com, has told me that his largest customers are state run hatcheries so I believe him. It is also why I find discussions about the black worms in the context as disease vectors is nonsense.


I think now that blackworms are commerically farmed, they are fine. But if I remember back to the 80's and 90's, most of the blackworms came from duck ponds. I think this is where they got their bad rep as disease carriers.


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## apistomaster (Jun 22, 2006)

The Discus keepers are especially prone to having unfounded fears of parasites from feeding black worms to their Discus. I think most often if they lose Discus when feeding black worms it is due to their failure to keep their worms clean and fresh. If they let worm water changes slide and there are dead and dying worms they may have problems but those are not specifically worm related. Any spoiled food fed to fish can make them sick.
I have collected my own real Tubifex and bought black worms as far back as 1968 and began breeding wild discus in 1969. Cleanliness is so much more important. Even Tubifex are actually better than black worms as a food but they must be cleaned properly. Letting them sit in running water for several days after collecting Tubifex always worked for me. I was selling them wholesale back in those days to shops in the PNW USA.


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