# Water changes...



## richter.billy (Dec 28, 2018)

So, I'm looking for ideas to put regular maintenance practices into place. What are your preferred methods of cleaning sand, filters and performing water changes?

So far, I have been doing 50% water changes weekly and stirring up all sand on the bottom. I alternate cleaning canisters every other week. Everyone seems healthy. Just wanna make sure I'm getting into good habits.

Thanks in advance.


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## ken31cay (Oct 9, 2018)

I'd say for the setup in your signature that is a really good water change/maintenance practice. But these practices are all relative to how much waste is being produced, so how big the fish are and how much is being fed. It might be that someone is following good practices but is actually doing the bare minimum for their setup. Only they could know this by testing their water and observing their fish.

For my tanks I change 70% water & change filter media in sumps, every 5-7 days. I wipe down tank & sump walls every 2 weeks, and deep clean my overflows and sumps every 4-6 weeks.


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## Ronzo (Sep 8, 2013)

rb;

I would say because it is a complicated result affected by size of the tank, bioload, feeding, to name the top few...maintenance intervals should be a function of nitrate levels...which is really just another way of quantifying what Ken said..."how much waste is being produced"...

Cheers


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I am not disagreeing with the other responders, but 50% weekly is minimum...what is your nitrate after the 50% change? I like 10ppm or less.

I have never found it necessary to clean canisters more than once/month...HOBs weekly or every other week maybe.


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## richter.billy (Dec 28, 2018)

Canisters are each cleaned every other week. Nitrate is between 10-20 after cleaning. Never above 40.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

50% w/c every week and clean canisters probably every six months.


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## richter.billy (Dec 28, 2018)

More than 50% isn't harmful? I am filling from tap water but adding dechlorinator.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

More than 50% is not harmful. We are saying you don't have to clean the canisters so often.

You want your nitrate 10ppm after the water change and 20ppm before. Never even close to 40ppm.


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## richter.billy (Dec 28, 2018)

Gotcha. Just making sure.


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## ken31cay (Oct 9, 2018)

richter.billy said:


> More than 50% isn't harmful? I am filling from tap water but adding dechlorinator.


Just make sure the parameters match. I pre-mix in a bucket the below per 20 gallons since my water source is a desal plant and is basically r/o water. I also use Seachem Safe as the declor. While my tank is refilling I put this mixture in gradually like a big scoop every 7-8 minutes.

Per 20gal: 1 cup epsom salt/2 tablespoons baking soda/1 teaspoon Seachem Cichlid Salt.

When I kept Discus I used to change up to 90% during water changes but I made sure the water parameters matched the old water.


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## fish_gazer (Nov 9, 2017)

I have observed that fresh water is to fish what fresh air is to humans (invigorating), so I change no less than 75% of my water every 6 - 8 days. I pour three caps of Seachem's Prime right into the aquarium as it's refilling.

Over the past year and a half, I've experimented with the timing of canister filter changes, going as short as two weeks and as long as six. With my current setup and *fish load*, 4 - 5 weeks seems to be the sweet spot.

Adding sponge pre-filters on my intake tubes really cleaned things up in terms of what is collected in the canister filters. I rinse out the pre-filters every week during the water changes.

I clean the inside of the glass with a polishing pad attached to a magnet twice per month or thereabouts.


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## ironspider (Dec 5, 2017)

60% water weekly and alternate canisters whenever.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I too like 75% change, but I have a well with no chlorine.

I have heard from experienced fishkeepers on city water that very large water changes (75% or more) can impact delicate fish (like cyps) when the city fluctuates the amount of chemicals they add.

So ideal is 50% and keep the nitrates under 20ppm.


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## fish_gazer (Nov 9, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> I too like 75% change, but I have a well with no chlorine.
> 
> I have heard from experienced fishkeepers on city water that very large water changes (75% or more) can impact delicate fish (like cyps) when the city fluctuates the amount of chemicals they add.
> 
> So ideal is 50% and keep the nitrates under 20ppm.


We have great water quality here in southeast Michigan that is consistent but your point is valid, appreciated and noted. :thumb:


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## eighteighty (Jan 2, 2019)

Wow 50% plus every week? I'm at 20% and I'm at 10-15 nitrate after.

I also don't have a way to remove/fill with hoses so it's all mouth-syphon into Rubbermaid trash bins, dump in bathtub, fill from bathtub into buckets, and manually pour back in. Even 20% 150g water changes suck.


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## Ronzo (Sep 8, 2013)

880;

I agree that would suck (no pun intended!)...why do you want to do that to yourself?? I also still use the manual siphon and "Bucket Brigade" style on the 55g, and for draining in the upcoming summer, I'm actually thinking of a siphon system out the window next to the tank and into the yard...I'm sure the plants out there wouldn't mind!...but would agree, BB would be a serious pain for your 160g...I can do a 50% WC with gravel wash in about an hour, and can only imagine what it would take you...those Rubbermaid bins get mighty heavy (and unwieldy) filled with anything more than 5g...I use good old 5g buckets for emptying, and two cooking pots in rotation for refilling from the kitchen, but if I had a bigger tank, I'd definitely see about a hose system for filling also...

Cheers


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## ironspider (Dec 5, 2017)

eighteighty said:


> Wow 50% plus every week? I'm at 20% and I'm at 10-15 nitrate after.
> 
> I also don't have a way to remove/fill with hoses so it's all mouth-syphon into Rubbermaid trash bins, dump in bathtub, fill from bathtub into buckets, and manually pour back in. Even 20% 150g water changes suck.


Why don't you get a python?


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## ken31cay (Oct 9, 2018)

eighteighty said:


> Wow 50% plus every week? I'm at 20% and I'm at 10-15 nitrate after.
> 
> I also don't have a way to remove/fill with hoses so it's all mouth-syphon into Rubbermaid trash bins, dump in bathtub, fill from bathtub into buckets, and manually pour back in. Even 20% 150g water changes suck.


Friend, that's no way to enjoy the hobby. You should get a Python Water Changer. Attach one end to the nearest sink (screws on to the faucet spout). Get a python extension if you need to go further. For the end that goes into your tank, get a water pump that has 3/4 inch hose output (see below); you may want to get a metal 3/4" hose fitting from your hardware store, which makes it easier IMO to attache & detach that end to the pump each time you do a wc.

Water Pump: I use the Aqua Mag pump https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001BO50ZY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s03?ie=UTF8&psc=1 which has 3/4" ends.

Doing 70% wc even on my 450gal is minimal effort. Though it takes some time.

Step 1: attach Python to faucet and to pump. Put pump in tank and plug it in to empty the tank.
Step 2: unplug pump, turn your faucet on to refill tank.


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## ken31cay (Oct 9, 2018)

Step 3: detach Python from faucet and pump. Store in aquarium cabinet.
Setp 4: profit.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Even without the pump it's quick and easy. 20 minutes to remove 50% of my 125G tank and 20 minutes to refill. Takes me all of the 20 minutes when water is going out to vacuum the substrate anyway.


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## fish_gazer (Nov 9, 2017)

I couldn't imagine life without my water changing system. I used buckets with my 55g and even that was awful. Any sink faucet can be converted to accept a fitting, you would just have to invest some time into figuring out how to do it. I purchased the pieces to my system separately and built it to suit my situation. It was a game changer. The water basically drains and fills itself while I tend to other stuff, it's awesome.


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## eighteighty (Jan 2, 2019)

My kitchen sink (one of the "professional kitchen with flex hose") and bathroom sinks are fancy types that do not have the piece to screw off and attach. Even my bathtub hardware are "fancy" pieces. My french wife will give me a big fat "NON" if I try to alter these pieces as they're all color coordinated and whatnot...

I never thought about dumping the old stuff into the front lawn, that's genius!

My next play is filling a 55g trash van on wheels and using a spare sump pump to pump the water in. I can store the trash can in the garage so she doesn't see it


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## eighteighty (Jan 2, 2019)

Might have to just drain the water in the street, the marine salt, epsom, and baking soda would harm the grass right?!


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## ken31cay (Oct 9, 2018)

eighteighty said:


> My kitchen sink (one of the "professional kitchen with flex hose") and bathroom sinks are fancy types that do not have the piece to screw off and attach. Even my bathtub hardware are "fancy" pieces.


Yeah, same. I use the sink in my utility room, which has the threaded spout. Hopefully your utility sink has the same. Worth the money spent to change it out if it's not. IMHO.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

eighteighty said:


> Might have to just drain the water in the street, the marine salt, epsom, and baking soda would harm the grass right?!


Epsom and baking soda will not harm the grass. Marine salt might if it has NaCl.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

eighteighty said:


> Might have to just drain the water in the street, the marine salt, epsom, and baking soda would harm the grass right?!


Do you not have a floor drain that you stick one end of a hose into for draining? You could also stick it in the toilet if you don't.


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## Methodical2 (Feb 11, 2019)

I've done weekly changes in general and have also tested Nitrate levels to determine when it's time for a water change, too. I doing an experimental test to see how long it takes for the Nitrate levels to get to 40 and so far it's been 11 days and it's not surpassed 20. I have little one's in the tank and that accounts for the lower levels for now.

Question. Does or has anyone used Seachem Cichlid Trace Elements in their tank and during water changes? Curious to know if this product is necessary for African Cichlids.

Thanks...


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Shoot for keeping nitrate below 20ppm. Change at least 50% weekly in any case...there are toxins other than nitrate...it is just used as an indicator.

I do not add anything to my tank. Nor would I unless I had a test that showed my water was deficient in some way. Without the facts, how would you know adding minerals was not causing something that is already there to double with poor impact.


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## ken31cay (Oct 9, 2018)

Methodical2 said:


> Question. Does or has anyone used Seachem Cichlid Trace Elements in their tank and during water changes? Curious to know if this product is necessary for African Cichlids.
> 
> Thanks...


I've heard that most water supplies already contain enough of the dissolved mineral compounds required, and trace elements only need to be added to r/o water. My water source is basically r/o water with sodium hydroxide added (to increase pH), zinc orthophosphate (anti corrosive) and of course chlorine. So I always add at least the recommended dose of Seachem Cichlid Lake Salt during water changes, which is supposed to "replicate the natural environment of the rift lakes".


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## fishndogs (Dec 5, 2017)

eighteighty said:


> My kitchen sink (one of the "professional kitchen with flex hose") and bathroom sinks are fancy types that do not have the piece to screw off and attach. Even my bathtub hardware are "fancy" pieces. My french wife will give me a big fat "NON" if I try to alter these pieces as they're all color coordinated and whatnot...


I had the same problem with my kitchen sink. I had a plumber come in and install a hose connection under the sink, splicing into the hot and cold lines, with a lever to adjust the temperature. Took him all of 15 minutes. Well worth it!


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## Methodical2 (Feb 11, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> ...I do not add anything to my tank. Nor would I unless I had a test that showed my water was deficient in some way. Without the facts, how would you know adding minerals was not causing something that is already there to double with poor impact.


Sounds good to me.


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## nycman (Dec 22, 2018)

Some of the above posts discuss using water directly from the tap. Putting the chlorine issue aside, I do not understand how this is possible. I live in CT and the water is 49F from the tap right now, and never higher than the upper 60s in the Summer. So unless you keep your tanks fairly cool and or live in Arizona or Florida, how is it possible to use tap water that hasn't been warmed to at least room temperature.

On my new 240G, I was planning on doing 25% and 50% per week alternating. I have a huge 66 inch sump under my tank that holds 30 gallons filled half way (operational level). I plan to run about 3 cubic feet of bioballs in towers and a large ATS on this system, along with 1 to 1.5L of carbon in canisters. I have a similar system on my 180G freshwater planted tank and have the same water change volume/frequency and nitrates are always ~0ppm. That said, it is a very heavily planted and stocked (discus and tetras) tank. The plants do wonders for nitrate reduction, almost eliminating the need for weekly water changes, but I do them anyway.

In all cases, including with my similarly sized reef tank, I store the water in 55 gallon cans - treat it and heat it there for 1 day to as much as a week, and then replace the tank water use a pump and flexible silicone hose located in each can. I can drain the water from the tank directly into my sewer drain by using my return pump with three ball valves to redirect the water this way. I shut off the two return valves and open the sewer valve and then turn on return pump. It takes about 1 minute to flush nearly 60 gallons down the drain this way - 60 gallons because when I shut the return pump off, the display tank drains until the sump is full (twice its operational volume). The other nice thing about draining from the sump, is the water level in the display tank does not drop by more than an inch or two, thus preventing corals, life rock, plants, etc. from being exposed to the air. As well, constant draining of the sump keeps it pretty clean. The downside, is the 505 water changes are often done in two cycles of the above because they are limited to about 60 gallons each. So it takes more time.


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## ken31cay (Oct 9, 2018)

nycman said:


> Some of the above posts discuss using water directly from the tap. Putting the chlorine issue aside, I do not understand how this is possible. I live in CT and the water is 49F from the tap right now, and never higher than the upper 60s in the Summer. So unless you keep your tanks fairly cool and or live in Arizona or Florida, how is it possible to use tap water that hasn't been warmed to at least room temperature.


Most people I know who live in a temperate climate use both hot & cold sides of their sinks to get the temperature right and then fill tank directly (put in declor before you start refilling). Of course it doesn't hurt to store your water from the day before but that's alot of unncessary work for most fish IMO. When I kept Discus I used to store water in two 55gal Brute containers. I did this every night since I changed ~60% water daily in that tank for a year and a half.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Agree mix hot and cold at the tap to get 78 degrees and fill the tank.


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## nycman (Dec 22, 2018)

ken31cay said:


> nycman said:
> 
> 
> > Some of the above posts discuss using water directly from the tap. Putting the chlorine issue aside, I do not understand how this is possible. I live in CT and the water is 49F from the tap right now, and never higher than the upper 60s in the Summer. So unless you keep your tanks fairly cool and or live in Arizona or Florida, how is it possible to use tap water that hasn't been warmed to at least room temperature.
> ...


Got it. Very dumb of me. I only have cold water tap where my tanks are (basement) and so did not think of the obvious. I keep getting advised by breeders in the NYC area that my weekly water changes of 25 to 50% is unnecessarily high given the plants in my tank. As you can see, this is a heavily planted tank.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Plants can take care of nitrates, but nitrates are just an indicator, other toxins are being removed as well. IDK any African cichlid breeders in the NYC area that would tell you that, but I am sure I don't know them all. I do between 50% and 75% weekly.


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## nycman (Dec 22, 2018)

discus cichlids, not african. And in a planted tank. Entirely different situation.


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## ken31cay (Oct 9, 2018)

I have experience in that situation. How long have you had the Discus in that planted tank?


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## nycman (Dec 22, 2018)

18 months, since it was started. Got them all from Discus.com. Generally the only ones that have not survived were small and bullied by the larger ones, and thus could not get enough food.


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## ken31cay (Oct 9, 2018)

In my experience small Discus don't do well in planted tanks since the needs of a planted tank are diametrically opposed to Discus' needs. Though they can do well if they're already adult or near adult sized. I had quite a few survive and grow but the difference between them and ones I grew out in non-planted tanks was night and day.

I've experienced a few Discus tanks and the only one that 'did well' for sub-adult fish was a bare-bottom (empty of substrate) and doing daily water changes and regular tank maintenance.


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## nycman (Dec 22, 2018)

The red and orange one in that photo above have been in the tank 18 mos each and are approaching 4.5 inches. I do understand that plantless, barebottom tanks are best for Discus, but then they look like glass boxes. Also, Discus like to hide (are very shy), so not sure how they feel about the glass box.


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## ken31cay (Oct 9, 2018)

I agree they look like glass boxes, not to mention the work involved in keeping Discus thriving and beautiful. I'm enjoying keeping Africans much more than Discus, though I did learn a lot from the experience.


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## Methodical2 (Feb 11, 2019)

eighteighty said:


> Wow 50% plus every week? I'm at 20% and I'm at 10-15 nitrate after.
> 
> I also don't have a way to remove/fill with hoses so it's all mouth-syphon into Rubbermaid trash bins, dump in bathtub, fill from bathtub into buckets, and manually pour back in. Even 20% 150g water changes suck.


You don't have to use your mouth to create a siphon. Just stick the house in the tank, let all the air out and while leaving one end in the water plug the other end with your thumb and there's your siphon.


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## Methodical2 (Feb 11, 2019)

nycman said:


> Some of the above posts discuss using water directly from the tap. Putting the chlorine issue aside, I do not understand how this is possible. I live in CT and the water is 49F from the tap right now, and never higher than the upper 60s in the Summer. So unless you keep your tanks fairly cool and or live in Arizona or Florida, how is it possible to use tap water that hasn't been warmed to at least room temperature...


I use both hot and cold tap water. I use one of those floating thermometers under the running water to get the temperature right before closing the python and filling the tank. I dump liquid Prime directly where the water is filling in the tank.


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## Methodical2 (Feb 11, 2019)

nycman said:


> ken31cay said:
> 
> 
> > nycman said:
> ...


It looks like it would be a very easy job to run a hot water line in that room. Should be a cake job actually.


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## Slow-n-Steady (Aug 3, 2018)

nycman said:


> ken31cay said:
> 
> 
> > nycman said:
> ...


Gorgeous tank, beautiful discus. Long time Discus keeper here (mostly from Kenny's Discus). With a tank that densely planted and Discus already closer to max size, you definitely can ease up on the water changes. I would grow them to about that size or larger and then move to planted tanks; maybe about 2/3 of how planted yours is. 25% a week or 50% every two weeks should be fine, especially with the column feeders. But if you have the time and like doing them, it's obviously not a bad thing at all. Again, beautiful tank.


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## withomps44 (Jan 11, 2019)

nycman said:


> Some of the above posts discuss using water directly from the tap. Putting the chlorine issue aside, I do not understand how this is possible. I live in CT and the water is 49F from the tap right now, and never higher than the upper 60s in the Summer. So unless you keep your tanks fairly cool and or live in Arizona or Florida, how is it possible to use tap water that hasn't been warmed to at least room temperature.
> 
> In all cases, including with my similarly sized reef tank, I store the water in 55 gallon cans - treat it and heat it there for 1 day to as much as a week, and then replace the tank water use a pump and flexible silicone hose located in each can. I can drain the water from the tank directly into my sewer drain by using my return pump with three ball valves to redirect the water this way. I shut off the two return valves and open the sewer valve and then turn on return pump. It takes about 1 minute to flush nearly 60 gallons down the drain this way - 60 gallons because when I shut the return pump off, the display tank drains until the sump is full (twice its operational volume). The other nice thing about draining from the sump, is the water level in the display tank does not drop by more than an inch or two, thus preventing corals, life rock, plants, etc. from being exposed to the air. As well, constant draining of the sump keeps it pretty clean. The downside, is the 505 water changes are often done in two cycles of the above because they are limited to about 60 gallons each. So it takes more time.


We seem to have very similar issues/setup. I have my 180G in the basement right between my water line coming into the house and my sump room. I ran hoses back through the wall into my sump to drain the tank and can also run my python directly into the sump while doing gravel vac.

My water coming into my basement has a garden hose adapter so my plan was to use that to fill a 55g drum in my sump room. My water was also in the low 50's so I installed heaters and a pump to circlulate the water and get it to temp. This was all going according to plan but during my cycle and testing I realized that my tap water was full of chloramine and ammonia and my storage (55g) had actually started to cycle and was showing nitrites and high nitrate.

Back to the drawing board.. So I decided to hook up an RODI system with an auto shutoff and fill the 55g with that. So then I had to start a water treatment regimen. I bought a scale and ran through several water tests and treatments in the 55g until I had all the parameters (PH, KH, GH) dialed in where I wanted them.

So with my 180 I now do a ~50 gallon (28%) water change twice a week with my pre-treated water. Using the scale to measure out all the quantities has provided the needed consistency. I still drop a bit of prime or stress coat into the storage barrel at every water change just in case. This system has been working well so far.


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## richter.billy (Dec 28, 2018)

This post went crazy lol. So, I have been performing 2/3 water changes biweekly for roughly a month and nitrates seem to stay under 25-30ish ppm. I'm considering looking into ro/di system but unsure of how to store water. Any thoughts or ideas to accomplish this?


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Richter, have you tested your tap water for nitrate? If not, test and then post the results.

Lots of good advice from other members on how much and how often to change water but a lot does depend on the bio-load of the tank plus feeding habits and as fish mature you may need to increase either the percentage or frequency or both.

I don't see a need to go the ro/di path as that would require adding buffers back to the tank and that type system usually wastes more water than just doing a 'normal' water change.


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## nycman (Dec 22, 2018)

True. Some "experts' suggest 1/2 tap and 1/2 RO/DI water. I can make a ton of RO/DI water which I use for my salt mix for reef tanks and ATO for all tanks, fresh and salt. But to do water changes on the freshwater tanks, including Discus, with RO/DI seems excessive. I do all my water changes on my freshwater planted discus tank with Connecticut tap, temperature compatible and chlorine removed with Seachem Prime.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

At our old house we had a well so we could do 100% water changes on fish tanks from a mixing valve. The water was saturation hard and slightly carbonated. I ran the water through a 48" gravel cleaner set horizontally above the tank. This allowed the CO2 to dissipate, lifting the pH from below 7 to about 8.3. Then we added city water. We had to use 250 feet of over size copper pipe to reach the house. So we expected to start out with lots of copper in the water. We installed a whole house carbon block filter that removed the chlorine and copper. And using tap water we could do large water changes without adding sodium donor chemicals. At the new house we have the same city water but use a dechlor product. Six years in the new house and I still get an email notice every three months that it's time to replace the carbon block insert.


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