# Red eyed Rd/Midas (split thread)



## countrykat

Never seen red eyes on a midas/RD. Check this out!!










He has a lot more red now in the body vs what is seen in the picture. The picture a month old.


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## ksfishguy

Wow, that is a nice little midas!


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## Ramirezi Altispinosis

country... thats totally a hybrid IMO. Some flowerhorn morph.


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## SinisterKisses

Ramirezi Altispinosis said:


> country... thats totally a hybrid IMO. Some flowerhorn morph.


To be honest, I've thought the same thing since pics were first posted up of that fish. It doesn't look right. You can also make out some slight red around the "breast" like a lot of flowerhorns have...I dunno, maybe I'm wrong  I'd like to see pics of it as it continues to grow.


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## Big Vine

Well, it's a pretty darn good-looking fish, whatever it is. :thumb: 
BV


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## lil mama

I agree BV , Jim has a great looking fish whether it be breeding, feeding or partenting. I vote more his parenting and feeeding. Keep up the good work. :thumb:


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## gage

countrykat said:


> Never seen red eyes on a midas/RD. Check this out!!
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> He has a lot more red now in the body vs what is seen in the picture. The picture a month old.


that isnt a midas/RD, that is 100% flowerhorn, midas dont have fins like that, the face shape is slightly off, body shape is off, and it has pink behind the gill.


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## countrykat

Well I did see the parents and they were definitely RD. So not sure where the FH would come from. The mouth and body looks completely different than a FH. I have 2 of each and they in no way look anything alike. I think it's just good food and clean water. Besides, I got the from TFG.


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## Pei

countrykat said:


> Well I did see the parents and they were definitely RD. So not sure where the FH would come from. The mouth and body looks completely different than a FH. I have 2 of each and they in no way look anything alike. I think it's just good food and clean water. Besides, I got the from TFG.


Do remember, FH is a hybrid of "god knows what elses are in that fish". A fish looks like RD doesn't mean it is RD unless you truly know where the fish comes from...like the fish is F1 RD (Off spring of wild caught labiatus). Yes, food and water plays a good part of what the fish looks like. Genetic plays a huge part too. Many hybrid...especially FH has gone through many generation of geezzz...who knows what sired them. Then how can one be positive of what they have if the fish was from LFS or the sire was from LFS? My point is...don't be so certain if not knowing the lineage of the fish.


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## countrykat

I here what your saying and understand completely. But, for myself and my kids who love to watch the fish tank, it's a RD. :thumb:


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## joehardware

Great looking fish you got there!

Sometimes we get caught up in trying to figure out exactly what our fish is (me included), when in all reality we should just enjoy them for what they are. Unless you plan on breeding it of course!


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## countrykat

I just took a new shot of my RD.


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## SinisterKisses

countrykat said:


> I here what your saying and understand completely. But, for myself and my kids who love to watch the fish tank, it's a RD. :thumb:


Oh, it wasn't meant to insult the fish or anything, but most people like to know what their fish actually are. Obviously you're welcome to call it anything you like, but if someone were to do a search on the forum for an "RD" and came up with your fish, then obviously they wouldn't be looking at an "RD". It may be a little confusing to someone who doesn't know, you know?


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## countrykat

I do know what you are saying and I do understand about others wanting to know what one really looks like. I think they would also like to know what one can look like with proper care and good genetics. This is the second RD I have had. The first one was 30+ years ago. It looked almost as good as this one. I think everyone gets too wrapped up in the hybrid issue and just excuses a good looking fish as immediately being a hybrid. Thats not always the case!! I also realize that this thread was hijacked "without purpose" and I do appologize for that ksfishguy.


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## ksfishguy

Jim, no problem and not your fault or anyone's for that matter, I like the discussion. BTW, please update us with picks of your RD, it is sweet.


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## SinisterKisses

countrykat said:


> I do know what you are saying and I do understand about others wanting to know what one really looks like. I think they would also like to know what one can look like with proper care and good genetics. This is the second RD I have had. The first one was 30+ years ago. It looked almost as good as this one. I think everyone gets too wrapped up in the hybrid issue and just excuses a good looking fish as immediately being a hybrid. Thats not always the case!! I also realize that this thread was hijacked "without purpose" and I do appologize for that ksfishguy.


Well, the problem is...your fish is not just an RD with "proper care and good genetics". It's not a pure RD. It's likely a flowerhorn of some kind as already mentioned.


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## countrykat

OK, truce :? I will give you that it may not be entirely 100% RD. As we all know that they are quite uncommon in the market unless obtained from the wild. I will go as far as saying that it is RD/Midas mix which is about 99% of the market nowadays, that leans to the RD side a little more than the Midas side. But a FH, no way! It is still young too, so lets give it a chance to grow up and see what happens. You do have to admit though that it is a looker.  Sinister you can also see in my orginal post that I labeled it as a RD/Midas.


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## TheFishGuy

Well, I hope I can shed some light on the subject. Here's its parents, and he's one of those little specks swimming around the parents... Interesting to say the least... 

























countrykats fish came from that very spawn, and at the time of the spawn there wasn't anything else in the tank that could have hybridized with the female and then just let that big male take over the care....

Dad:









Mom:









Syblings from previous spawns at different color stages. The one all the way at the top of the picture hasn't colored up yet. The one at the bottom is on it's way and the one in the middle stayed like that:









And here's the one in the middle today at 7":









Any questions?


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## lil mama

I love your fish Jim. I think you have done an outstanding job with him. Perhaps some people don't understand all the good parenting you've done. I love his colors  If TFG says he's RD then I think we all should agree he's RD. Keep up the good work Jim :thumb:


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## Pei

This is my friend's labiatus. And he isn't wild caught (F0) but F1. You can easily obtained these fish from reputable breeders  Jim, you living in Ohio...you can easily get a pure RD especially during convention time. Ohio has many cichlid hobbyists.

I've seen this fish in person. Stunning and huge


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## countrykat

Thanks lil mama and everyone else for the compliments. Thank You TFG for posting pictures of the parents. Pei, that is a good looking devil. It's time for bed, I have to work tonight.


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## TheFishGuy

I'm in no way claiming my fish are pure bred labs. I consider them midas. And lots of people consider midas red devils and vise versa. They're common names, nothing more, nothing less. But I'm pretty darn sure they're not FH.


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## SinisterKisses

Yours definitely don't look FH, TFG, but where did you get them from? If you don't know their lineage, as I believe Pei said earlier, then there could have been something way back in the genetics that has surfaced in countrykat's little guy.

He's a nice looking fish and I definitely wanna keep seeing pics of him as he grows, but at the moment, I just don't think he looks right, not even for a midas/rd cross.


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## TheFishGuy

:thumb:

I'm sure there's a chance something may have gotten into the bloodlines of any fish, but it's all speculation. Reputable breeder or not, there's still chances. Nothing is 100% guaranteed. Nothing. But I'm pretty darn sure he's all midas, or RD, or both. WHO KNOWS? :lol:

The female came from a reputable lfs who buys from rapps. I'm not saying she's from rapps because I don't know if that where those came from... I just know they order from rapps. Not that rapps stock is "perfect" because there's absolutely no way to know for sure.

The male was a rescue. I have no clue where he came from. But yellowfox might. He brought him to me.

Pei, I have huge amounts of respect for you, you know that. That being said, that picture of the pure lab is an impressive fish, but to my eyes has a lot of charachteristics of a midas. I thought true 100% pure labs were more slender, less bulky, shorter bodied, longer snouted and shorter finned than citri? Just because it's F1 doesn't mean that it isn't tainted. I've read on more than one occasion that the citri and labs hybridize in the wild... So, now that being said... How are we to really know? I mean really really know the background and lineage of any fish, especially a cichlid! DNA testing? And even if we do DNA testing how are we to know that the control DNA we're comparing it to isn't "tainted". Simply because there is absolutely no way to tell. No way what's so ever.

I mean c'mon, the pet trade has tainted the whole midas/Red Devil situation for two decades... So how do we know for sure what any of them are????


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## SinisterKisses

Well we can't be, of course. I'm not claiming that any of mine other than Dozer are pure anything. But countrykat's fish doesn't even appear to be totally RD/Midas like most of them do, he's got some other characteristics in there as well.


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## TheFishGuy

Like?


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## Pei

Don't get me wrong, Jeff Rapps did occassionally got some hybrid when someone wasn't telling the full truth of the fish they sold to Jeff Rapps. However, that occasion is rare.

As for the labiatus that belong to my friend. I forgot where he got it from...it was someone who got the F0 pair...if I remember correctly. The fish was in the fish show and had been judged. If it wasn't pure breed, it would've been disqualified. 

Here is one thing many people didn't know. Majority labiatus lost their labiatus traits when they live in aquarium, this includes F0 labiatus. I know of another guy who has a pair of F0, and when bought, the pair got some nice thick lips. After a while, the fish lost the thick lips ... well, wasn't as thick for sure. Labiatus when in wild, needed that trait to feed. When they are in the aquarium, whatever that kept them to have the thick lips...can't be found in aquarium. This goes the same for midas. In the wild, majority of them do have the black markings or that they are barred or that they are piebald. This is to blend in their environment and away from predators?! or to give them better chances to hunt?! However, majority of citrinellus F0 lost these coloration after being in the aquarium. No one would've guessed either that labiatus also come in barred and piebald colors? Well, they do. Again...once in aquarium, their colors changed. :wink:


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## TheFishGuy

So, what your saying is things change when wc fish are kept in captivity, or different water conditions. I couldn't agree more with that statement. This point is made kind of obvious when comparing the coloring to the fry I've kept as apposed to the ones I shipped out to countrykat. Different water, different diet, different maint. ect. ect.



> If it wasn't pure breed, it would've been disqualified.


This is not always the case, their was a hybrid that won it's class at the last OCA extravaganza. Joea pointed it out to me, it was an african of sorts... I'm not too keen on african cichlids :lol:

As far as wc specimines being "pure" I still maintain there's absolutely no way to be sure they're 100% labiatum or 100% citrinellum. It's impossible to know.


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## Pei

TheFishGuy said:


> So, what your saying is things change when wc fish are kept in captivity, or different water conditions. I couldn't agree more with that statement. This point is made kind of obvious when comparing the coloring to the fry I've kept as apposed to the ones I shipped out to countrykat. Different water, different diet, different maint. ect. ect.


No...not water parameters. It is the setup of the environment that changed their appearances.

Yes, you can generally know what fish you got even a F0...if you know where the fish was collected.


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## bernie comeau

I agree 100% with TFG. I think this example of TFG's fish and CountryKat's fish from the same batch shows that different water, different diet, different maintenance etc. ............... produces a different fish! Suprised? :lol:

There seems to be a view out there that these fish are genetically hard- wired to be one way and one way only! But CA cichlids are very variable according to their enviroment. There might be very little molecular basis for many of the morphological differences that seem to be considered so significant. Now they are finding Amphilophus citrenellus with enlarged lips like A. labiatum :lol: because these fish are making their living in the same manner. Makes one sort of wonder if A. citrnellum and A. labiatum are really 2 seperate species or just different strains or regional variants? I think as well, under certain aquarium conditions were likely going to see some midas cichlid type fishes such as A. sagitae end up being indistinguishable from A. citrenellus.


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## bernie comeau

TheFishGuy said:


> Like?


That's a really good question. I'm curious to know because I sure don't see FH :-?


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## Pei

bernie comeau said:


> I agree 100% with TFG. I think this example of TFG's fish and CountryKat's fish from the same batch shows that different water, different diet, different maintenance etc. ............... produces a different fish! Suprised? :lol:


I don't know about that. Maybe you can help explain this regarding synspilus. A same batch of fry from synspilus, why not all of them have the same type of colors even if they all grew up together? Some will have huge amount of green. Some will have a lot of blueish purple. Some will have a lot more red. I believe Willem Heijns showed an example of that one time. Don't get me wrong, I didn't say that water and diet don't play a good part of what the fish looks like. However, genetic plays even bigger part, IMO. I think that's why I stopped buying fish from LFS. I rather get a F0. If I get a chance one day, I sure won't mind going for a collecting trip  At least you know what you get. :lol:

I'm sure you have seen the video produced by Willem Heijns regarding Lake Nicaragua. I think I need to view that video again to be sure. If you've seen the video, did you see labiatus around those rocky bottoms? From Dr. Loiselle article, he stated that labiatus was found in different substrate area, I think. Majority of those fish that looks so like citrinellus (I guess that's why there was an article of citrinellus complex), they were found in rocky substrate area. And I believe that it is considered, there are what they called, labiatus and citrinellus complexes. There is this labiatus complex with humongous lips. I believe it was called, A. sp. 'Red Lips' or was it called 'big lips'. Could be wrong. Then there is this citrinellus with divided species. Who knows...maybe one day they will decide that citrinellus and labiatus should have their own genus.

Ok...enough of my "not making sense" murmurring. I think the sire of countryKat's RD possibly contain whatever gene that is now showed up in countryKat's RD. Could it contain some FH? Maybe...maybe not. Who knows. However, many fish...after many generation removed, out of no where, there got to be little fry that showed specific trait.

Also, what defines FH? Isn't FH is a general term that state a fish was a creation of hybrid (god knows "what" and what fish involved in the making of the fish)?


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## ksfishguy

My brother doesn't look quite right, but he isn't a FH or hybrid, he's just weird.


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## TheFishGuy

Neither of the parents had anything that looked remotely hybrid about them... anything... that's why I posted the pictures!, then to furthur it I posted pictures from previous spawns as (regretably) I don't have any of countrykats fishes syblings left to post pictures of them :?

Go back to page one and look at the picture he posted... looks like a RD/Midas to me... Take your pick as to what you want to call it...

Now that we've completely taken over the original posters thread I'm going to give it one more day then split it and making another thread out of it.

Sorry ksfishguy


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## Pei

Just to make things clear a bit. I didn't state countryKat's RD has FH. However, it does has large amount of red on the fish that I've never seen on color rd. Maybe I need to get out more  Or it could be the light, angle of the fish... Who knows what is what. As long as the owner enjoys the fish. Some likes hybrid. I used to have hybrid but now I'm just into pure. If they are F0...even better


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## gage

i believe it is a hybrid. but a beautiful hybrid!


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## gage

countrykat said:


> Well I did see the parents and they were definitely RD. So not sure where the FH would come from. The mouth and body looks completely different than a FH. I have 2 of each and they in no way look anything alike. I think it's just good food and clean water. Besides, I got the from TFG.


there are many different variants of flowerhorn, Zz, kamfa, Jin kang, Kamalau, just to name a few.


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## gage

TheFishGuy said:


> Like?


i already mentioned these earlier, *** never seen a midas/rd with a purple chest, and bright flaming red fins, those are the big ones.

aside from that, the markings in the fins, on most midas/rd *** seen are not this noticable

im not saying it can NOT be a pure, it just really doesnt appear pure to me at ALL!

and as i mentioned, many people here are neglecting the fact that their are many strains of flowerhorns.

either way, i LOVE this fish, very beautiful colors!


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## lil mama

They get their big lips from sucking snails from their shells in the wild. Unless you provide them with snails in the aquarium their lip size will decrease. I bought some snails for my fish he was only interested in killing them. He did not want to eat them. I would have to say wigglers are his favorite treat food.


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## lil mama

ksfishguy said:


> My brother doesn't look quite right, but he isn't a FH or hybrid, he's just weird.


LMAO My husband doesn't quite look right either....not sure what he is. Please don't ask him to dance please no dancing. :lol:


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## TheFishGuy

So gage, even after seeing the parents and syblings you still think it's a hybrid??? I think you'll be shocked to see just how many variants of midas and RD their are.... I've had plenty with red eyes and red fringed fins, plenty with black eyes and black fringed fins. Have you ever seen a stark yellow one?

























Here's a good shot: Take your pick as to what's what... Incidently that's counrtykats fishes mom before maturity(the creamcicle):

















And here's the other one in those pictures all grown up:









Point is they tend to go through all kinds of color changes as they grow. You might get a solid one that as it matures it becomes a creamcicle and vise-versa. I knpow ,because I had em do that...

This guy was RED when I got him.... Bright red!


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## gage

i just dunno! *** never in my life seen a RD/midas that looked even remotely like this one, *** seen all of those variants before, *** been researching them for quite a while as im looking into which one i want or if i want one.

none of those have fins as intense red, or a purple chest, at least not near as much as the OP's does.

im not saying 100% it is a hybrid, im saying it looks an awful lot like one.

if their is NO hybridization in this fish (other then the RD/midas) i would be greatly surprised, i think it was hybridized with something many generations ago, and the genes just happen to show in this one more then the rest, of course, my experience and knowledge is limited, being only 15 and in the hobby for 2-3 years, which is practically nothing.

it just doesnt look pure to me.

all i know forsure is I want one  :lol:

and ya, i have seen the stark yellow, and orange, the creamsicle, all of the ones youve pictured their.


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## Pei

Well, finnage colors, I won't go there because there are some amazing looking finnage patterns and colors I found in citrinellus and labiatus. I do have to admit though red chested on color midas/rd is the first I've seen. I mean...I have seen it on barred...like Dozer that owns by SK. Then again...I didn't know barred color midas existed until I saw one personally. Color wise...anything can happen. I have seen plenty of blue, orange, black eyes midas/rd. Red with small black pupil eyes on a midas/rd is a first time I've seen here. I mean...I found those colors eyes in lyonsi and trimaculatus. Maybe I'm not as observant as I thought I was. Then again...countrykat took the pictures with flash...so the colors of the fish may not be as true as it seems. Like this picture of my midas. I took it with flash...and look how bright his orange eyes turned out to be. 









Even though his eyes colors were very bright here, they still contain some gold in them. Like this picture here.









And this picture was taken without flash. And his eyes are more orange than red (not the best picture because it is so dark in colors).









When I first got my female midas, her eyes were blue. Once she went in with the male, her eyes turned black. When she is in the mood to flirt, her eyes are blue but the pupils are big.

And I think SK and gage were referring to how red with such small black pupil countrykat fish has...like these cichlids for example.
Lyonsi male









Trimac female









Trimac male (daymn...I miss this fish  )


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## Pei

BTW, gage...don't sell your self short. Being 15 yrs old and you know as much as you do now, that's pretty impressive


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## gage

thanx Pei, i appreciate it, but helping out in a fish store twice a week and having everyone look down on you becuz your young really gets on my nerves :x , and *** kinda come to expect it from everyone :lol:

btw, that purple color is on barred midas??? aw dam, now i feel stupid, so maybe their is just barred midas in their somewhere, which is where the purple color comes from.

as far as that intense red of fins,i still have yet to see a pure bred with that intense of a fin color, but like you said, anything can happen.


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## Pei

Not purple or pink like trimac. Red but not blood red. Almost the burgandy red (possibly combo of red and dark grey coloration). Not all barred midas has that colors. And I guess SK got lucky to have a barred midas with such redness on chest area. I know Big Head doesn't have redness. Maybe the mama has some. However, I believe a saw a picture of the mama once and she was more light and dark gray. Maybe one of the parents contain some redness gene?! The only other midas that has red is sp. â€˜red Isletasâ€™.

As for the fins, I don't think it is a very reliable from those pictures. They were...after all, taken with flash.  I think those eyes threw me off the most. Then again...it could be the angle the fish was in when the pictures were taken...like the picture of my midas 

We can all agree to disagree. At the end, the fish isn't ours. countrykat enjoys the fish. That's all that matters


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## gage

well i wish it was my fish


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## TheFishGuy

What about the infamous picture of the super red lab from years ago? I have it somewhere but don't have the time to post it....


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## Pei

You mean like this?









Oh...no doubt about that kind of color.


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## gage

the OP's midas/RD fins still appear more intense, but Jeff rapps probably didnt use the flash, as u had mentioned.

*** never been a fan of pure red devils though, i prefer the midas shape, like the OP's fish.


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## countrykat

Now that is a cool fish!! :thumb:


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## lil mama

countrykat said:


> Now that is a cool fish!! :thumb:


Yes it is a cool fish. Love that solid dark eye. It's very impressive on the deep red/orange fish. WOW


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## TheFishGuy

Oh no, not that... these especially the bottom left pic:









Interestingly enough, look at the two pictures of the juvis up top.


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## Pei

I know many people who bred labiatus, their tank raised fish turned out to have much smaller lips than the parents. I guess a lot to do with environment...how it was setup (feeding wise). Body color isn't the huge factor when it comes to labiatus or citrinellus. There are other features that's very important to identify them. I'm no expert, but I do know that lab and cit aren't supposed to have eyes like the one countrykat has.  Snout is another way to tell them apart (V or U). And there's the body shape. *shrug* Maybe someone like Willem Heijns, Don Danko, Juan Miguel, Rusty Wessel...probably can tell these cichlids apart better than us.


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## bernie comeau

While some A. labiatus and A. citrenellus do have red eyes (and this can be shown with WC fishes), it's true that neither have "glowing" red eyes like a Trimac. At least I don't think they do. But Pei's pictures of her midas show that the brightness of the eye can also be reflection of the flash bulb.

Yes, bottom left of TFG's pictures is an old picture. It was in the Goldstein books starting in the early '70's, so it's at least that old. Could even be from the '60's (?). If I remember well, some questioned wether the picture had been altered, colored, to make the fish look more red. Of course it wouldn't have seemed right to many, as most RD in captivity at the time were usually a yellow fish. Maybe it was colored, I dunno. Sort of like today, except now we question wether the fish is a hybrid? :lol:

I also realize that if enviroment is responsible for any apparent differences or distinctions, that it also can sometimes reveal a hybrid past under certain conditions. A fish can carry many genes and the hybrid genes might only get expressed under certain conditions. Genes can be like switches, turned on or off, triggered by something in its enviroment. There are many examples of this, not only with fish, but with all types of crosses of plant and animal strains. Although certainly, with a 1000 offspring, there is a lot of potential for genetic variation in just one batch of fry.

Countrykat's fish may or may not be a hybrid (besides being a cross of midas x RD which it would almost certainly be). But that is true of ANY aquarium strain cichlid that can not be traced to WC. Personally, I don't think there is much reason to think it is anything more then midas x RD, the same as any other fish commonly called a midas or an RD in the aquarium hobby.


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## Pei

The picture posted by TFG, the one with huge lips, I do believe they called that sp. 'Fat Lips'? There will be new fish discovered whenever someone is there to do some collecting. We definitely didn't know sp. 'Chancho' ... one of the biggest midas complex existed until it was collected by Willem Heijns?!

Evolution is something, isn't it? I know there will be hybrid in the wild. However, it does take years for a new specie to emerge from many years of hybrid and evolutionary changes. Who knows...maybe one day, will have a bright eyes small pupil midas appears in the wild  :lol:

Only countrykat will know if the fish has bright eyes like a trimac. We all speculate from just the pictures he posted. We don't know the true colors of the fish.


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## bernie comeau

No, I do not beleive that the old picture that TFG posted is A. sp. "fat lips" but rather is A. labiatum. Fishes originally imported in the 1960's as RD supposedely came from Lake Nicaragua, not Lake Xiloa.

A. sp. "fat lips" is something more recently discovered and is a fish that is seen to be part of the "midas cichlid-complex".


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## countrykat

The eyes on my fish are as red as in the pictures, the fins are a flourescent bright red/orange and it has the red/pink breast which is getting larger everyday. The colors are amazing with or without the camera. Like TFG posted, if you would look at the last pictures he posted there is an awefull lot of red coming out in the breast of the top 2 pictures.


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## TheFishGuy

countrykat said:


> Like TFG posted, if you would look at the last pictures he posted there is an awefull lot of red coming out in the breast of the top 2 pictures.


That's why included them


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## SinisterKisses

...the top two pics are barred fish, which usually have the red breast. I've personally never seen a red, orange, yellow, or creamsicle midas/rd with the red breast, in person or in a picture.


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## TheFishGuy

A lot of midas I've had showed barring when young.


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## SinisterKisses

Yes, but I've never seen an orange, red, yellow, or creamsicle at ANY size (since countrykat's obviously is still a juvie) that showed a red breast.


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## bernie comeau

These are some pictures i scanned from aqualog southamerican cichlids III:









This apears to be the exact same fish TFG posted, Top Right, though a slightly different picture. Same plants and wood in the backgound. It is listed as a "red-orange variante" of A. labiatus and it says: "beginning of color changing".










This is a mature "red-orange" variante and it says: "finish of color changing". It may be the exact same fish as the younger one undergoing color change. Regardless, it is the same strain and demonstrates the color change an RD can go through. Countrykat's fish apears to be undergoing a color change. Note the bright orange-red eye on this fish. Not quite as red as Countrykat's fish but the eye apears just as bright to me.










Note the red eye on this midas. Maybe not as bright as Countrykat's, but it is redder. It's blood red.


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## countrykat

I do belive the whole thing is turning red! 

Taken today.










The other side has red on it too but not quite as much.


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## Pei

Ok...the bright red eyes are fine, but redness with small pupil just not found in any lab or cit...IME. Bright red or bright orange they usually carried a bit of gold. Pupil is big. Nothing like trimac or what lyonsi has. Trimac and lyonsi eyes are more like 2 dimensional looking (the only way I can describe it when looking at their eyes). Lab and cit have more of that 3 dimensional looking (possibly because their eyes carried some golden colors even if they are orange/red.) That's why I showed 2 different type of my midas pictures, with and without flash (still can tell the eyes are more 3 dimentional). If countrykat's fish even without flash is as red with small pupil eyes with that 2 dimensional looking, then it is questionable. I won't say this fish doesn't have hybrid. Appearantly it could be if the sire contained rdxmidas. Neither will I say it has FH in it (still no one can give me a definite answer what's FH). Only countrykat will know what the fish looks like when it comes to colors.

NYC has plenty of this Asian LFS. And they carried a lot of hybrid (bleh). And I saw one they called golden FH (as always...another name make up). This fish had almost the same colors as countrykat but the pink/red took over half of the body. And gosh...I can't believe people actually pay for that thing. Each and everyone of those hybrid cost above $50 and they were just tiny little 3-5". 

Agree to disagree. At the end of the day, we all know the fish is hybrid (FH or rdxmidas is hybrid). Everyone can post pure breed pictures all they want. It won't make countrykat's fish pure breed.  All cichlids go through color changes to reach their adult colors, doesn't matter it is trimac, lyonsi, citrinellus, labiatus...and so on. We won't know what countrykat's fish will look like when it is adult. It may be bright red now. It may change to peach, orange, yellow, stay the same color when adult. How everyone can be sure his fish will look like the lab that Bernie posted? After all, his fish is still a juvi. :wink:


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## zoyvig

I bought my first WC RD (C.erythaeum then A.labiatus now) while on vacation in 1965 and He looked very much like Countrykats except larger lips. His eyes were like balls-of-fire, therfore we called him "Fireball". As he matured, his body morphed to LEMON-YELLOW with a rosy red breast and major red highlighting on his finnage. I had him almost ten (1O) years and his eyes never changed one iota.

Over the years I have had dozens of RD and Midas, Non have exibited the red-eyes of my "Fireball". I currently have three WC males RD from Jeff Rapps of Tangledupincichlids. I recently lost a pair of WC RD from Eddie Martin of Bluegrasscichlids.


----------



## countrykat

Pei, what is Asian LFS?


----------



## lil mama

WOW countrykat I love every pic you post of your fish. What food did you say you were feeding him?

zoyvig Fireball sounded awesome do you have any pics of him? I would love to see them.


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## TheFishGuy

That's awesome countrykat! I wish I still had that pair :?


----------



## Pei

countrykat said:


> Pei, what is Asian LFS?


Just LFS opened by Chinese. I've seen one (still can't forget that fish because of the price) "golden FH" that is more yellow than red or orange like yours with huge hump. And the fish has trimac snout but midas body with amount of pink on belly area. That fish was about 10". And it was sold for 30k  And I'm sure one silly person would pay to get that fish :roll:


----------



## chc

I don't know if this is any help or not, but here are some wild caught labs with red eyes for comparison/contrast (you be the judge of which word fits!):


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## TheFishGuy

Boy, those look awfully RED...... :lol:


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## Pei

*sigh* I don't know ... maybe what I typed my Chinese accent came out?! Red with small pupil means...the blackness in the middle is small. It isn't just the redness/orangeness of the eys. And I'll leave this as that.


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## SinisterKisses

Lol don't worry Pei, I understand you entirely


----------



## thetim6

That's a really nice fish, countrykat. There's nothing that makes me think it's not a RD, because of the variance I've seen in juvi RD's. I have a hard time believing some of the pics I see of RD are the same species as other pics, but I'm not an ichthyologist either.

I have seen types of 'flowerhorns' that actually looked exactly like a RD. They are called 'Rose Queens'. Here is a link to a thread where a user posted pics of his Rose Queen on MFK.com.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69846


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## chc

Those rose queens look more midas-like to me than red devil (perhaps you are using RD for both as some do though).

A wild RD (labiatus) will be laterally compressed (like a pancake to a degree), have a long sloping snout, and most will have large lips. Tank raised juvies will have all the same except that the lips won't be as large. Here are tank raised specimens from wild parents:


























Midas (citrinellus) on the other hand are much more robust, have a blunt face as compared to the RD, and (usually) simple lips. Note the blunt face and thick body on this wild caught Midas:










Side by side, the differences are even more obvious than in photos.

Pei, I know what you're talking about with the eyes, and I can't explain it either!  But, when I think of a trimac's red eye I think of it being very symmetrical in coloration, the red is perfectly distributed around a perfectly round pupil. Like this fish from Juan Miguel's site:

http://www.cichlidae.com/gallery.php?genus=Amphilophus


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## Pei

Well, I do know that citrinellus and labiatus can have orange/red eyes, but their eyes bring slight of gold (I guess that really makes me a fish geek to notice such thing) . If you look at Juan Miguel's site fish...and also my midas, both of them have the same amount of red/orange eyes but some gold as well. Their eyes look more uhmm...3D...stand out, you know what I mean?! While...Trimac and Lyonsi have this 2D effect look...like their eyes are stamp on. That's what I see when I saw countrykat's fish. I just have never seen a RD/Midas fish with such eyes. As I indicated earlier, it could be the flash or the angle of the fish when the pic was taken. Only countrykat will know his fish.


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## TheFishGuy

chc said:


>


This color morphing took place in all the fry from the parents I pictured earlier.


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## TheFishGuy

I got this in an email from someone quietly watching the thread. I've gotten permission to post it:



> >>> Sure
> >>> a ton of RD's have been crossed with Midas in captivity, but from my
> >>> understanding these two species also cross in the wild when they share
> >>> the
> >>> same body of water, so what's her point? Midas have certain distinct
> >>> physical characteristics, as do RD's, and IMHO about all one can do is
> >>> go
> >>> by
> >>> which certain physical characteristics the fish exhibit the most.
> >>> Short
> >>> of
> >>> taking DNA samples, no one can ever say with 100% certainty what the
> >>> genetic
> >>> make up is of any RD, or Midas, I don't care if they are WC fish, or
> >>> raised
> >>> in ponds in Singapore.
> >>>
> >>> Lot's of WC RD's have been exported over the past 10 yrs, so to say
> >>> that
> >>> only Jeff Rapps etc have pure strains of RD's, is ridiculous. There
> >>> must
> >>> be
> >>> tons of F1's & F2's in circulation, and tons more of their offspring.
> >>> Who's to say that there aren't breeders in Florida, or Asia, that
> >>> aren't
> >>> using WC or F1 fish for their main breeding stock. I get a kick out
> >>> of
> >>> those who own a Rapp's RD/Midas, so suddenly any other RD/Midas out
> >>> there
> >>> is
> a hybrid mutt. Puhleeeze!


I agree 100%


----------



## chc

Yes Pei........ You are a fish geek! You've officially been "outted!"

Regarding the email TheFishGuy posted, that logic would make one question the validity of any species designation at all. There are certainly hybrids throughout the animal kingdom, but most are short lived. Some may result in the creation of new species (just wait a few thousand years and see!). Ultimately, though, while there are certainly pure species throughout the industry, the failure of most suppliers to clearly identify their source material and show proof of its validity has resulted in people like Jeff Rapps filling a much needed niche. No one is saying a pure fish is any better than a "mutt" (well, no one SHOULD be saying that!), but when the identification of a species is in question these conversations will take place.

By the way, I disagree with the statement that "lot's of wild caught RD's have been exported" during the last ten years. Yes, many specimens have been imported, but they've only come through a very limited number of channels, one of which is Jeff Rapps.


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## SinisterKisses

I strongly disagree with the whole "I get a kick out of those who own a Rapps' RD/Midas, so suddenly any other RD/Midas out there is a hybrid mutt" line of BS. I've been keeping these fish for years and years, and I only recently (about 3 months ago now?) acquired a Rapps barred Midas that I had been after for just as many years. I hardly started spouting about how every other fish that doesn't come from him is a hybrid after buying from him - I've been saying this for a very long time, actually. Long before there was ever even the possibility of me gaining any fish from Jeff Rapps, I was well aware that every "Midas" in my tanks was a cross between the two, and I've always been very vocal about that. Owning a Rapps fish has changed nothing, except that I'm extremely happy to finally have my barred Midas.

If you can't come out and say what you have to say to others, but only email it to one member you agree with, then why bother at all....


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## gage

i love rose queens, their face is different then both midas and red devil.

and not to be picky or anything, but a rose queen isnt technically a flowerhorn, just a hybrid that was made over generations of cross breeding, just like a SRT.


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## chc

Nice post SK!

gage... what is a SRT, and what is a flowerhorn if not just another hybrid like a rose queen?

(sorry to derail)


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## countrykat

Man, I never thought a picture would turn into this.  Awesome discussion!!


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## TheFishGuy

All I'm really trying to say is no one is 100% sure that a midas or lab is 100% what it is. It's impossible to know. Impossible. That and I really highly doubt there's any flowerhorn in my fry and I took offense to it being said. I'm over it now


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## countrykat

lil mama said:


> WOW countrykat I love every pic you post of your fish. What food did you say you were feeding him?
> 
> zoyvig Fireball sounded awesome do you have any pics of him? I would love to see them.


New Life Spectrum large pellets and Hikari Gold.


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## lil mama

Thanks countrykat I think I'm going to try NLS. In all fairness I have NEVER heard Sinisterkisses say that some ones RD/Midas is a mutt. Or anything like that. She is, and should be, very proud of her Rapps barred Midas. She has never thrown this in some ones face ever. She has always had something nice to say about my fish and every body elses. All she said was countrykat's fish didn't look right to her. Although I don't agree with her (and everybody knows I'm not an expert at all) I don't think she was trying to disrespect anyone. I have seen a lot of the pictures TFG and chc showed here before. This makes me think a lot is possible when it comes to coloration with a RD/Midas. Maybe we should all try NLS fish food.


----------



## chc

FYI..... All my fish (and all the ones in the pics I posted) eat NLS.


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## SinisterKisses

I'm not sold on NLS quite yet, actually....my monsters have been eating it for about a month and a half. They love the stuff, I'll give it that, but they also loved Hikari Gold. And I haven't seen any improvements in colouring, either...colouring is more about good genetics than what you feed your fish. Good foods can only help enhance what's already there, so don't start feeding NLS and expect your peach-colour fish to suddenly become glowing red or anything 

And thanks lil mama


----------



## lil mama

Yes, I understand what your saying SK. I'm not foolish enough to think I will get a bright red fish from feeding NLS.  It may help enhance what is there...... a lot. The best way I can explain the way I think is like this. I had an Amercian Bulldog that was the runt of a litter of thirteen. She was small because she was a runt and because she didn't get to nurse as much as the bigger puppies. The vet said she missed a threshold of time to develop. But if she were to have puppies they would not be smaller like her because it was in the mom's genes to be a full size dog. I have raised a lot of different kinds of animals, and if I've learned one thing, it's what you feed and parenting make a huge difference. Maybe countrykat caught a threshold of time and has capitalized on it with NLS. I also know that TFG bred this fish, he has the parents, he has seen the off spring. If he says they are RD/Midas then we should all agree they are just that. With all due respect to every one.


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## SinisterKisses

Lol well, with all due respect, I'm still disagreeing. I'm not saying it's NOT an RD/Midas, I'm just saying that at the moment, I don't think it looks like just that  Only time will tell, so I'm looking forward to seeing pics as the little guy grows. Whatever he may be, there's no denying that he's a good looking little dude.


----------



## Frameshift

Something Iâ€™ve not seen asked yet was if the fish in question has any access to direct sunlight? As most people who own ponds know, when a fish is added they darken or color up dramatically. Much as a pale person will gain color (tan) when in the sun.

Here are some photos of some fish I caught on Oahu, Hawaii. Iâ€™m definitely not saying theyâ€™re pure, just look at the red color, which I attribute to sunlight over diet. But both are a big factor, coupled in with genetics.


























































































Same fish as the one Iâ€™m holding.

And this one TFG now ownsâ€¦










Also, look at the genetic variability that those fish have. Iâ€™m sure the beginning breeding population was quite small (a couple fish if not just a male and female that someone dumped) and look at the color differences in the future generations. There are even throwbacks to the barred ancestry, though 99% of the fish caught are red.

Just adding some fuel to the fire.

I'd have to say that the original fish does look a lot like a flowerhorn, but that's just me.


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## TheFishGuy

That guy's doing great by the way, he's close to 10" and usually is very mellow for being "wild caught" Definately no red though... We'll see what happens when he's put in the 800 eventually, that tank gets natural sunlight about 6 hours a day.


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## chc

Sunlight is a huge factor is the red coloration of these fish!


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## countrykat

It gets about an hour or two of sun a day.


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## TheFishGuy

I'll be putting my two larger midas in a pond this summer, along with some other heavy hitters


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## countrykat

It would appear that the majority of the red on the sides has dissapeared. It still has red on it's chest. No color change has taken hold as of yet though. Man thats a bummer. I had a piece of driftwood that went bad though in a very short period of time. I am getting ready to do a 50% water change to get rid of all the micro pieces that are now in the gravel. Maybe that has something to do with it. :-? Eyes are still fire red.


----------



## gage

SinisterKisses said:


> Lol well, with all due respect, I'm still disagreeing. I'm not saying it's NOT an RD/Midas, I'm just saying that at the moment, I don't think it looks like just that  Only time will tell, so I'm looking forward to seeing pics as the little guy grows. Whatever he may be, there's no denying that he's a good looking little dude.


i strongly agree with you SK, irregardless of seeing the parents, it still looks pretty hybrid to me, again, i could be wrong, just looks like it to me.


----------



## gage

chc said:


> Nice post SK!
> 
> gage... what is a SRT, and what is a flowerhorn if not just another hybrid like a rose queen?
> 
> (sorry to derail)


i know that SRT (super red texas) and Rose queens are just a mix between 2 different fish between many generations of crossing to make the fish perfect, for example, SRT's are made by first crossing a Carpitnis or Cyanoguttatus (not sure if it matters) and a Kkp(king kong parrot), you then cross the offspring back with the texas to get stronger pearling on it, you keep crossing the offspring with the texas to get as many pearls as u can/want, you then find a fertile male (difficult) of the fry that have a strong pearl gene, and cross it back with the king kong parrot, to increase the # of fry that fade (all parrots are born black, they will eventually fade into orange, this can take anywhere from a week to 2 years though uncommon to take this short and long) the fry are all born looking like texas, and a certain % will fade (turn black then come out orange/red) the more times you breed with the Kkp, the more fry that will fade, some fade more then once, but u cant cross with the Kkp to many generations cuz the pearls may eventually go away a little more with each generation, until their is no more pearls left, so its difficult to get a perfect SRT, with a good # of pearls and a strong fading gene.

as far as Rose queens go, im not sure what is used to make them, but its the same idea, where as a true flowerhorn is a cross between more then one cichlid, not sure if any breeding over generation was used, no one knows for sure.

its the same idea with RBK's (Rainbow kings) which is a cross between a Kkp and a Vieja synspilum. exactly the same thing, breed their fry back with a syn and vice versa.

all in all, flowerhorns were created in a different way then a RQ, RBK, and SRT. that is why RQ, SRT's etc are NOT technically classified flowerhorns.

any more questions let me know, im here to help, just PM me next time, i dont wanna ruin this guys thread more then we already have with this whole hybrid argument, the last thing the poor guy needs is another argument to deal with in his post.


----------



## illy-d

We are also forgetting to factor in naturally occuring mutations which can happen without either of the parents being a hybrid - ie. because an offspring looks different it doesn't mean it is a throwback at all...

A study was done by monks in the last century with foxes... The monks found that by selecting for a single trait led to a number of interesting and un-imaginable changes. What the monks did with their wild caught foxes was to select for "domestication" (I forget what they called it - but it was a simple test): They would reach a stick with a glove on the end into the foxes cage and only the foxes that didn't attack or shy away from the gloved 'hand' were allowed to breed.

By doing this simple test they noticed differences in the foxes fur and temperment in the F1 offspring - they expected the change in temperment but the change in the foxes coat was completely unexpected... Changes in coat became more pronounced with each subsequent generation...

I guess what I am getting at is that a change in eye colour really shouldn't be such a big surprise given the fact that the Red Devils/Midas' have been selectively bred for body pigmentation for many generations... Who knows maybe selectively breeding for larger nuchal humps has or could lead to other changes. The fact of the matter is that it is rare that only a single gene controls or effects a single trait...

Because so many of our fish are bred and raised in aquariums 'natural selection' is not necessarily taking place with the same vigour that it otherwise would... Which could explain why even a 'pure' fish can exhibit traits not usually found in the wild.


----------



## TheFishGuy

Funny about the sunlight... My oldest reference book is from 1975, Tropical Fish Here's a quote from the book. page 137:



> "RED DEVILS are not for the average fish hobbyist. Grown adults need 100-gallon tanks and a constant supply of live foods. They are occasionally seen in public aquariums. Natural light enhances their contrasting black and red, which in some varieties may tend to be a faded orange. Some varieties also lack the large lips characteristic of the species. Their range is Central America"


They have it's scientific name as "C. erythraeum" which grows to 15"

I bought the book in 1987


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## SinisterKisses

Lol I enjoy the bit about needing a constant supply of live food...I would never dream of giving my guys anything other than the occasional gimpy mbuna fry or something.


----------



## TheFishGuy

I know, actually the whole book is amusing to flip through, and to think, that's what I used as my bible when I was 12 :lol:

My wife took some pics of the midas with her new DSLR camera:


----------



## SinisterKisses

TheFishGuy said:


> I know, actually the whole book is amusing to flip through, and to think, that's what I used as my bible when I was 12 :lol:


I remember having 2 or 3 general fish books when I was a kid, I dunno if I still have them or not though...I'll have to look, probably a good laugh, lol.


----------



## TheFishGuy

Even my reference books from the 90's are starting to annoy me :lol: Someone needs to write an atlas sized book but just about CA/SA cichlids... If it exists please tell me... Even though reference books are starting to become a thing of the past what with the internet and all.... but I still like to flip through them :thumb:

Those two midas I just posted will be going into a (hopefully a 600 gallon pond over the summer, aught to be interesting to see what they look like when they come out in early fall 8)


----------



## Pei

A fish to have a different trait as "pure" parents, that will take years to happen. So far, none has been discovered yet in the wild that any lab or cit has the trimaculatus or lyonsi eyes. And I'm not saying it won't happen one day, but as far as I know...one hasn't been discovered as of today

To now, we still don't know where the sire came from (countrykat's fish father). The fish could be the result of other fish then back to cit/rd for all we know. So...I won't readily say the sire just purely lab/cit. For all we know, maybe many of the lab/cit at LFS already stained with other cichlid (other than lab or cit). After all, many of the LFS care nothing at all if the fish hybridize in their tank. All they wanted was to make a few more bucks.

Yes, natural selection happens all the time, especially our wet pets or any pets that we keep. However, natural selection occurred got to have an explanation. Lab lost the thick lips in aquarium, that I can see it happened because of the environment they lived in (not like in the wild where they actually gotta dig to get to their food). Of course, unless people would do what Chris does for his lab...providing food to fall in the gravel...to make his labs work to get to the food. However, if countrykat's fish has the eyes like trimac or lyonsi due to "natural selection", then what caused it? Why didn't it happen to other aquarium fish as well?

As for hump size, many things can cause the hump to grow. Yes, gene is one of them, but it got to have something to trigger it to increase in size. It just doesn't grow out of no where. Yes, mature male will grow a hump, but if the fish isn't the king of the tank...or isn't in breeding...having great food and water, the hump will not grow that that big. Heck! Even female can grow a hump. Does that mean anything? Due to gene? I've seen female cit grows a hump just living in her own quarter and yet lost it when she met up with something that's stronger than her. And I've also witness my female grew a pretty nice hump at 8" with the king of the tank, her mate...just because she was in breeding mode (too bad my cit is gay).

My point is, evolution takes years to occur. Natural selection happens for a reason. Then again...I'm not scientist. What do I know. I'm just a fish geek. DNA/gene and evolution discussion is best to leave it to my scientist brother to explain


----------



## TheFishGuy

So.... you're going by the eye in countrykats fish? C'mon, I've seen plenty with red eyes....
I've got one right now??


----------



## Pei

TheFishGuy said:


> Even my reference books from the 90's are starting to annoy me :lol: Someone needs to write an atlas sized book but just about CA/SA cichlids... If it exists please tell me... Even though reference books are starting to become a thing of the past what with the internet and all.... but I still like to flip through them :thumb:


I think most people have given up on trying to write a CA/SA cichlids references  Their freaking genus change as much as many of the African cichlids (well...these days anyway). And new species are discovered all the time. And I think it is hard to just decide to put them as part of the reference when most of them are still undescribed. And someone has to take some nice pictures of all these cichlids to place in the book  That's a lot of work. By the time it is done...it is time to create another reference again because more species have been discovered. And more species have move to different genus.

So...TFG, you want to start on writing this reference? If you do, you will have my sympathy


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## TheFishGuy

No writing for me :lol: No one would buy it :lol:


----------



## Pei

TheFishGuy said:


> So.... you're going by the eye in countrykats fish? C'mon, I've seen plenty with red eyes....
> I've got one right now??


Is my English came out as uhmmm...Chinese? Have you seen Trimac and Lyonsi eyes? No...then you won't know what I'm talking about.

The red/orange eyes are common but small pupils with full red...never seen on cit or lab. Your rd/cit has large pupils and has a bit of gold (if you look closer...I can even see it). 

Like it said before, it could be the flash or it could be the angle of the fish when the pic was taken.


----------



## TheFishGuy

:?: :?: :?: His pupils are big???


----------



## Pei

TheFishGuy said:


> :?: :?: :?: His pupils are big???


IMO...look small...just like the trimac and lyonsi I used to have. JUST my OPINION.


----------



## TheFishGuy

Oh c'mon now, are you pulling out your micrometer? :lol: If that's not a midas/RD Eye I don't know what is!

Now you're gonna have me go looking for old midas pics :lol:

I just don't see a difference from the subadult photo I just posted and Ck's fish's eyes. Scroll the screen back and forth... you can't deney it! :lol:


----------



## countrykat

I'll take a picture today of my FH and the RD to compare the eyes and post it. That should lead into a whole new discussion.


----------



## Pei

Now...how can you compare FH (that fish is too hybrid) :lol:? I've seen FH that has midas/rd eyes, eyes like synspilus, and etc 

Here's the thing...I was too much of a fish geek before my son was born. I would sit in front of the tank and stare at my midas, trimac, and other fish for a while after work. Heck! I even played with my midas. Yeah...I know...I didn't have a life  And I would sit there and looked at my fish and how they behaved...how their eyes look at things, how different the eyes look on certain lights. Like I said...I didn't have a life and I was a fish geek :lol: Surprise my hubby still wants to be with me. :lol:


----------



## illy-d

*Pei wrote:*


> My point is, evolution takes years to occur. Natural selection happens for a reason. Then again...I'm not scientist. What do I know. I'm just a fish geek. DNA/gene and evolution discussion is best to leave it to my scientist brother to explain


Not according to many scientists that refer to the example of the Monks and their foxes - it was in a documentary about dogs and how they have evolved from basically 2 'parents' breeds - similar to wolves into the hundreds of breeds we have today... The example of the monks shows what can happen in 1 generation. 1.

I've also heard people with Red Devils mention how the large lips are non-existant on F1 fry from W/C parents - that's an excellent example of how fast living organisms can adapt to environmental conditions... This notion that evolution takes years & years to occur is being challenged regularly in the scientific community...

In animals such as fish that have 1000's of fry per year I would expect the number of mutations that are evident (or not) occur in a much higher frequency than they would in a fox or a dog that has a litter of 2 - 10 pups in a breeding cycle...

My point with the nuchal humps was that we don't know exactly what causes them - it is most likely a combination of things and not just a single factor... The fact that there is very likely multiple 'triggers' suggests to me any way that the possibilty of multiple side effects isn't too hard to believe - in fact I would suspect it is more likely (even if we haven't discovered what those other side effects are)... The bottom line is that if you selectively breed for 1 trait you will most likely create others...


----------



## bernie comeau

I think we have to make a distiction here and not confuse things. Evolution is a change in gene frequencies over time. Not simply a change in phenotype. On the one hand, everything about an organism is determined by genetics, and on the other hand virtually nothing about an organism is JUST genetics. The more complex the organism is, the more the latter is true. "2 -sides of a coin" - phenotype is just as much enviroment as it is genetics.

Of course a variable animal will vary according to its enviroment. For fishes in captivity there are a huge number of factors affecting its developement. For example, I think tankmates are a huge factor (amongst many). Even sex at an early age can be determined by it in the midas cichlid! Nauchal humps with out doubt are affected by tankmates. I've seen many cases where the smaller males developed the larger hump and the larger dominant male didn't develope a hump until there were fish larger then it. Large cichlids kept by their lonesome might be seeing humans as a competitor in what they claim as their territory extending outside of the tank, and the nauchal hump developes accordingly. Just like flaring gills, the nauchal hump does make a fish look larger from the front. Calories are not as abundant in the wild so nauchal humps won't develope unless there is suffecient calories. A fish that can intimidate by size rather then actually have to engage in battle probably has a better chance to survive in the wild as an injury, when your next meal is never assured, might be the differrence between death and surviving and reproducing. In the wild, a fish has to compete with a whole lake or river of its own kind as well as competing species.

When changes are obvious in organisms in only 1 generation, we are much more likely talking about enviroment affecting phenotype rather then genetic mutation.


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## countrykat

The first paragraph made me say hmmm. :-? The last sentence made me smile. Good water, good food and a mildly mellow tank. My son just got home from school and we are getting ready to do a water change. He's 7 and he reminded me that it needed done.


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## chc

bernie comeau said:


> I think we have to make a distiction here and not confuse things. Evolution is a change in gene frequencies over time. Not simply a change in phenotype. On the one hand, everything about an organism is determined by genetics, and on the other hand virtually nothing about an organism is JUST genetics. The more complex the organism is, the more the latter is true. "2 -sides of a coin" - phenotype is just as much enviroment as it is genetics.
> 
> Of course a variable animal will vary according to its enviroment. For fishes in captivity there are a huge number of factors affecting its developement. For example, I think tankmates are a huge factor (amongst many). Even sex at an early age can be determined by it in the midas cichlid! Nauchal humps with out doubt are affected by tankmates. I've seen many cases where the smaller males developed the larger hump and the larger dominant male didn't develope a hump until there were fish larger then it. Large cichlids kept by their lonesome might be seeing humans as a competitor in what they claim as their territory extending outside of the tank, and the nauchal hump developes accordingly. Just like flaring gills, the nauchal hump does make a fish look larger from the front. Calories are not as abundant in the wild so nauchal humps won't develope unless there is suffecient calories. A fish that can intimidate by size rather then actually have to engage in battle probably has a better chance to survive in the wild as an injury, when your next meal is never assured, might be the differrence between death and surviving and reproducing. In the wild, a fish has to compete with a whole lake or river of its own kind as well as competing species.
> 
> When changes are obvious in organisms in only 1 generation, we are much more likely talking about enviroment affecting phenotype rather then genetic mutation.


Excellent post!

On aother note, the RD lip thing is being confused. The reason F1's don't have enlarged lips is because they aren't faced with the environmental conditions that wild fish are -- specifically, the abrasive surfaces from which they suck prey. The lips act as gaskets for sealing off crevices in which small inverts hide. The F1"s have the gene to develop the large lips, but they do not develop them due to the lack of constant abrasion.


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## illy-d

Bernie you're right. A change in phenotype can be brought on by a change in geneotype - or by environmental factors... A change in geneotype may also not result in a a change in phenotype - in other words the change isn't expressed... Again though the only point I am trying to make is that sometimes selcting for a particular 'phenotype' could potential result in several changes or none at all.

It would seem that the lips of the RD are an example where the phenotype is controlled by the environment and not genetics (much like a Flamingo's 'pink' colour).

In my opinion people ar much to quick to yell "hybrid" when a new phenotype is displayed in a fish - the Electric Blue Jack Dempsey is another example where many still believe they are hybridized (although that perception is changing everyday)... I personally believe that EBJD's are NOT hybrids - and I don't think we should be so quick to assume that countrykat's RD/Midas is anything other than that because it has a particularly red eye...


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## countrykat

illy-d said:


> Bernie you're right. A change in phenotype can be brought on by a change in geneotype - or by environmental factors... A change in geneotype may also not result in a a change in phenotype - in other words the change isn't expressed... Again though the only point I am trying to make is that sometimes selcting for a particular 'phenotype' could potential result in several changes or none at all.
> 
> It would seem that the lips of the RD are an example where the phenotype is controlled by the environment and not genetics (much like a Flamingo's 'pink' colour).
> 
> In my opinion people ar much to quick to yell "hybrid" when a new phenotype is displayed in a fish - the Electric Blue Jack Dempsey is another example where many still believe they are hybridized (although that perception is changing everyday)... I personally believe that EBJD's are NOT hybrids - and I don't think we should be so quick to assume that countrykat's RD/Midas is anything other than that because it has a particularly red eye...


Well said!!! :thumb:


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## SinisterKisses

Is everyone missing the part where not all of us are claiming it's a hybrid based on the eye? My opinion that it isn't simply a rd/midas mix has absolutely NOTHING to do with the eye at all.


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## TheFishGuy

Here's something I was thinking about today. Making assumptions about the coloring of a midas is... well... ignorant. Midas go through so many morphs when growing it's not even funny. I've seen it all, black, white, orange, red, purple, stripes.... You name it.

The dang thing is a midas. Give it up.

(this post is not directed to anyone in particular, just me being pissy)

On a side note, here's one of our latest hybrids :roll:


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## chc

TheFishGuy said:


> Here's something I was thinking about today. Making assumptions about the coloring of a midas is... well... ignorant. Midas go through so many morphs when growing it's not even funny. I've seen it all, black, white, orange, red, purple, stripes.... You name it.
> 
> The dang thing is a midas. Give it up.
> 
> (this post is not directed to anyone in particular, just me being pissy)
> 
> On a side note, here's one of our latest hybrids :roll:


Great looking goldfish! :thumb:


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## gage

TFG, i see the difference in the eye that Pei is pointing out, so it isnt just him, you scroll back and forth and to me that pupil on each fish is different, all i had to do is glance.

it isnt the coloring that people are calling different, like Pei said, it is the eye, irregardless of what you say, the eye on that fish isnt lab/cit. their is a difference, somethings telling me you arent looking very hard cuz you are to busy denying the possibility that your fish is a hybrid beyond just a lab/cit

im not trying to be rude, so dont take it that way, im just voicing my opinion.


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## gage

countrykat said:


> I'll take a picture today of my FH and the RD to compare the eyes and post it. That should lead into a whole new discussion.


but the problem is you most likely only have old school Zz's, like i said, their are WAY more flowerhorns out their that you probably havent heard of before.


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## TheFishGuy

Sorry gage, pei is a girl.... and my fish arn't FH's or hybrids. The eye is the same. I studied it. Rediculous :roll:

I'm really not quite sure what anyone see's beside midas/rd in that fish. I think you're all stretchin' a bit. $10000000000 says you all will change you tune in a few months.

Sorry, but I've owned way too many midas/rd in the past 21 years. Some I get all excited because they're super red, some I get excited because they look laterally compressed.... I've given up on finding true labs, I like them for what they are. I've bred tons of them, kept tons of them. Sorry, but you're wrong.


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## gage

> Sorry gage, pei is a girl....


hth was i supposed to know that :lol: sorry Pei...

i give up on this argument, theirs no winning, cause no one can say 100% what this fish is, not me, not TFG, not countrykat, no one. its an impossible argument, their could be some lyonsi or trimac in that fish from many generations ago without any of us knowing forsure, or, it could just be a Midas/RD with a different pupil, we dont know that either, so know one here can say they are right, cuz in all reality, we dont know.



> Sorry, but you're wrong.


sorry, its impossible for you to say we are wrong, cuz unless you do a DNA test, their is just as likely of a chance that YOU are wrong, i dont care how long you have kept/bred midas/RD, you cant tell us that we are wrong, just as well we cant tell you that you are wrong.


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## SinisterKisses

Yep, I think I'm pretty much done with this argument too, for the exact reason gage has already stated - there is no winning, not for anyone. And I agree that stating "sorry, but you're wrong" is incredibly ignorant and intolerant.


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## TheFishGuy

:lol: :lol:

It's ok gage and SK, relax. But now you see my point. There's absolutely no way to tell, which is what I've been trying to say!

Of course no one is right or wrong. people are entitled to thier opinions.

My opinion (and it's been the same since the early 90's) is that there's no such thing as a true lab anymore. People can claim all they want. The FACT is there's no way to tell 100%


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## chc

Hah, hah........ After all that we've decided nothing!

Honestly, I just think it's an RD/Midas mutt judging by the parents. Lots of color for sure, but nothing too unusual. These mutts have been selectively bred for so long that colorful fish shouldn't really surprise anyone.

At the end of the day, though, it's a nice fish and I hope the owner enjoys it for years and years!


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## gage

im glad we came to an agreement.

my next comment, where can i find one! (for less then the 45 bux my LFS was trying to sell it to me for LOL)


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## S4surf

Oh boy, lets jump in with both feet. :roll:

Pei, Is it possible what you and Gage are seeing in the pupil is the camera angle and the fact that the fish is looking down which would make the pupil smaller in the picture than in real life.

Steve


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## gage

no man, dont restart the arguement, we just finished it :lol:


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## countrykat

Update, the red is almost gone and everything is turning a pink/peach color.


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## gage

aww no man, thats too bad, oh well, just love th fish for what it is, any update pix on the fish?


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## countrykat

Here is 2 shots a got today.


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## gage

still looks very nice IMO, it still has the nice dark red fins at least.


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## lil mama

He still looks awesome! Do I see pearl spotting on his tail and fin?


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## countrykat

I just really looked at the top picture and it makes him look short and fat :-? There is pearls on his fins nad they have been there since day 1. The other one in the tank has never shown the pearling like it's sibling. I'll say it is caused by the food. :lol: Just funnin!! :thumb:

I just checked the water with an API test kit I just got, first test kit I ever owned believe it or not. PH 7, Ammonia 0, Nitrate 6, and they get a water change in 2 days. Pretty dog on good I would say. They have a new 240 gallon on order and will have it the last week of March. Gonna have me a female Festae in there too.


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## TheFishGuy

Where're ya gettin' that festae from?


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## countrykat

I'm gettin it from the Festae Fairy.  LOL


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## TheFishGuy

:lol: I hope you're patient! Because the festae fairy won't be comin' through town until he get's a pair! :lol:


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## lil mama

Short and fat with pearl spotting just means he has Midas in him


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## countrykat

Did you notice my water parameters?


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## TheFishGuy

Fantastic... That's what happened to me after spending gobs of $$ on a test kit :roll: Dumb.....


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## countrykat

OK it's all the way pink now with orange fins. :roll: But he is now 2nd in charge of the tank right under the blackbelt. I'll get some pics tomarrow when I get home from work.


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## TheFishGuy

That's going to be a power struggle! I've never had a vieja overpower a midas....


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## countrykat

Yeh I'm sure when he gets another inch or so those 2 will be at it. Just about the right time they go into their new 240  Although I would still love to have a Jag and a FM festae while they are still relativly small to go in that tank.


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## lil mama

240g WOW that's a big tank. You can put a lot in a tank that size.


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## countrykat

I'll post some new pics today. Right now I'm helpin my boy with his cub scout car.


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## TheFishGuy

I wish I could find my old cars....


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## countrykat

OK here is the pictures I took today. Sorry mama, I know I said I would do it yesterday but.



















As you can see a lot of the red has faded and the colors change almost daily. 3 days ago it was almost white.


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## TheFishGuy

He's got a lot of his mother in him... She went through the same changes.


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## lil mama

He still looks great. If you notice his eyes stay the same. That bright red color. In the morning when you first turn the light on are his eyes ever another color? My fish's eyes are a pale gold then as he wakes up they turn orange and then red orange. Is this normal?


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## countrykat

Mine does the same. It takes about 30 minutes for them to turn red.


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## Bluekiller82

Just came across this thread, been thinkin about getting a midas or a female Festae.

Any update on the fish countrykat?


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## countrykat

He's a lot bigger now!! Almost 7" I'll try to get some pictures today and post.


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## lil mama

Sweet looking forward to seeing new pics


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## gage

me too.


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## TheFishGuy

Where are those pictures!?


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## countrykat

Stop yelling at me!!

OK here are the pictures I promised, sorry but I completely forgot.




























The Jag and the Devil are almost 7" long and get along fine right now.


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## lil mama

First off we weren't yelling we were whining there's a difference LOL :lol: Boy he is one handsome devil. I love all the orange speckling on his sides. His tail and fins are beautiful too. He is getting big too wow 7". Do know if it's male or female yet? Nice work :thumb:


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## countrykat

I think it's a male just for the fact that it is 3x bigger than the other one in the tank. Both are from the same batch.


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## marge618

gage said:


> well i wish it was my fish


Me too. The colors are striking. I have a creamsicle RD that looks a lot like this ones' Mama.

Please keep posting pics of this fish.

Later,
Marge


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## countrykat

His color changes almost daily everyday. Some days it is almost pure red others it is pink/peach it has even been white for a few days. I'm still not sure what color it will end up being with all the changes taking place over the last few months.


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## TheFishGuy

I'll yell when I darn well feel like yellin' and you'll listen!

:dancing:


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## countrykat

TheFishGuy said:


> I'll yell when I darn well feel like yellin' and you'll listen!
> 
> :dancing:


blah blah blah. Anyone hear something sorta nagging?


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## TheFishGuy

I learned it from watching you OK


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## countrykat

Stick and stones may break my bones, well you get the idea.

How's my Festae doing?


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## countrykat

Well I have said before it changes almost daily. Here is a few pictures of this morning.




























As you can see it is cleary white today. However tomarrow it may be fire red or peach colored.


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## TheFishGuy

Festae are growing sloooooooow..... But I did get a really nice female barred midas, she shackin' up with a w/c male midas


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## countrykat

Lets see some pics.


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## lil mama

Yeah lets see some pics. countrykat do I see blue in your fishes eyes? Or is that the flash? WOW  what changes in color! You should name him Houdini. I love that fish


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## countrykat

Yes they are blue today. I did use the flash but that is the true color of the fish. I'm thinking I may have got a bad fish fish from thatfishguy!! Know who I'm talkin about?


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## TheFishGuy

You know how I love them hybrids :lol:

Here's the female midas and her new buddy  Check out her ovipositor in one picture  She's ready! They're in a 185 to them selves


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## juissed

I have a pair of RD's (bought from LFS as RD's... who knows what they really are)

One has red eyes, the other is normal.


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