# Stocking Suggestions 125g Co-ed tank (Newbie alert!)



## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Moving discussion to the Malawi forum to get some ideas and inputs for a tank that is about 1-2 weeks away from fully cycled. Starting to put some thoughts together so that we can begin sourcing and stock the tank to full in 1 or 2 "stocking events".
*Basic facts:*
Tank = 125g; 72x18x24(H); PFS+EcoComplete; 6-7 anubias+java ferns; 3 small pcs of driftwood in the corners; Rock work is pretty basic (mix of tufa, smooth, texas holey, petrified)
*Basic reqs:*
No experience with fry or interest to manage them in our first attempt. Overall looking to avoid hourly MMA fights in the tank (newbie alert!) so avoiding all known aggressive species.
1m:4f mix is the ratio we will go for.

Mixed species tank leaves us with 2 options in the Mbuna group: L.caeruleus and P.acei (none of the others seem to have a happy temperament; also basic rock work). Any species that we could consider in addition to the two?
Haps group:
avoid A. baenschi (Benga gold) for poor showiness compared to the yellow Labs or skip the Labs
P. electra (gets us gray/blue/silver/banding color combos)
If no Benga, then either A. stuartgranti OR A. jacobfreibergi OR S. fryeri (please comment?)
LOVE the looks of C.moorii (please comment on suitability and stock level?)
C. Borleyi Red Fin OR P. taeniolatus (Red Empress) 
C. rhodesii (too big for the 125 and community?)
For colors we now have some yellows, blues, yellow/blue, banding. With borleyi we could get a red in there as well.

Can we add a Victorian like A.latifasciata to the mix?
Are Nimbochromis aggressive or just efficient piscivores (thinking about future fry)?
Where to buy if online - reputable US sellers?
Stocking level for synodontis to the mix? Add ahead of time or at the same time as the cichlids?

We just joined the Rocky Mountain Cichlid Association - hope to see some interesting fish and learn at the first meeting in a week!

Thanks a lot for suggestions and ideas.


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## vekoma (Nov 3, 2004)

I'll soon be setting up a similar tank as an "upgrade" from an 84-gallon tank I "abandoned" 5 years ago when I moved intercontinentally.

I am adding:

1:3 Red Fin Borleyi; I grew quite fond of the dark females in my old tank, they're quite striking
1:2 Star Sapphire; looks like females have a little more color than typical for haps
1:2 Jacobfreiberghi; I keep reading these can hold their own a little better than most peacocks
1:5 Ps. Acei; I had 3 before and they're my favorite fish. Very striking colors; supposedly they would school, so I am adding 6
1:6 Msobo Magunga; I had 1:3 before and they were not at all aggressive towards the other fish and quite well mannered towards their own. Don't know if I was lucky (one of the females actually seemed a little more of a boss than the male) but I am willing to give it another try since they're so striking.

my tank would be slightly wider and slightly less tall than yours, so I'd have a little more "floorspace"

I suggest you also look at Mdoka White lips instead of star sapphires as females are quite striking as well.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

vekoma said:


> I'll soon be setting up a similar tank as an "upgrade" from an 84-gallon tank I "abandoned" 5 years ago when I moved intercontinentally.
> 
> I am adding:
> 
> ...


Thank you! Looks like a nice tank!! My wife said no via text to the Mdoka white lips!! She is a doc and well some visuals are not OK for her :lol: :lol: 
The Star is also a placidochromis so it would be a choice between P. electra and P. (phenochilus tanzania) to prevent hybridization. Am I right in my understanding?

I think you are an additional person to love the P.acei so they might be a shoo-in now. I dont however want 12-15 Mbunas terrorizing the tank if i add the Labs and the Msobo. As a firts timer with limited room for more tanks, I want to be very cautious and circumspect.

Hoping to hear from someone who keeps C. moorii or the C. rhodesii in a community tank to know if its a dead end for a newbie like us.


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## vekoma (Nov 3, 2004)

You're right on the Placidochromis hybridization, so pick one.
In my experience, you shouldn't have any aggression issues with the Acei.
I briefly considered the Rhoadesii but decided they would get too large for a 125 gallon tank.
No experience with Moorii.


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## engotski (Dec 29, 2014)

- I like yellow labs if doing M/F tank. Provides awesome contrast with the rest of the blues you are going for and females are still solid yellow.
- C. Moori look completely different from other africans and females look just as great besides a smaller nuchal hump. 
- Placidochromis Tanzania +1. Love my male, doesnt look like any other cichlid with the speckles as it matures. 
- Protomelas Taiwan reef? (sub for borleyi/red empress) 
- Aulonocara...suggesting Maulana Bicolor 500 or Lwandas?

Could make for really impressive show males of each species...


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

vekoma said:


> You're right on the Placidochromis hybridization, so pick one.
> In my experience, you shouldn't have any aggression issues with the Acei.
> I briefly considered the Rhoadesii but decided they would get too large for a 125 gallon tank.
> No experience with Moorii.


Thank you - will skip the Rhodesii. I am working harder to avoid mistakes I made the first time.
On the Placidochromis, I need to look into the M/F coloration and cost of the fish as well in case the P. tanzania is not common.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

engotski said:


> - I like yellow labs if doing M/F tank. Provides awesome contrast with the rest of the blues you are going for and females are still solid yellow.
> - C. Moori look completely different from other africans and females look just as great besides a smaller nuchal hump.
> - Placidochromis Tanzania +1. Love my male, doesnt look like any other cichlid with the speckles as it matures.
> - Protomelas Taiwan reef? (sub for borleyi/red empress)
> ...


I think the Mbuna search is now over  
P.acei and L,caeruleus both 1m:4f which gets me to 10 fish now.
Synodontis 4 fish?

Haps group:
Have to research C.moorii for availability and costs. Should I stock 1m:4f or can i go 1m:3f?

P.electra OR P.tanzania 1m:4f

Protomelas taiwanee may not work - description calls for smooth rocks and limited coloration if not dominant. Also like very clean water. Hard to see how these guys would be dominant in a mbuna tank and having a predilection for rocks and algae.

Are C. borleyi tough to keep? I like the red fin kadango.

We love the Victorian A. latisfasciata. Any keep them in a mixed Malawi tank? good idea or dumbest ever  ?

Thanks!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Stick with 4 females on the moorii. I'd choose electra...very reliable fish. Borleyi is not difficult. How many species do you have?

My latifaciata are fine with the borleyi and peacocks.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

So far, 
Cichlids:
I have 2 Mbuna species (Labs/Acei), 3 Haps (borleyi, moorii, placidochromis) so 25 fish total.
Synodontis: 4
Maybe(s) inclue the A. latisfaciata and Aulonocara peacocks.

Colors are the yellows, blues, reds and spotted.

Do I have efficient piscivores other than the syno?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Synodontis luccipinnis/multipunctatus should be kept in numbers 5+

With those 5 species you're fully stocked IMO. Remove the Moorii or Acei to add another species.

Don't worry about fry surviving. Even if 1 manages to survive it will not ruin your tank. They're usually eaten as soon as the mother spits; within seconds.

If you go searching for sexed fish you'll probably end up having to use several vendors and spending a lot of money. I'd start with at least 8 juvies of each species. Remove problem males when needed.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I agree...the borleyi and moorii are large fish.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Sorry for asking for additional clarification.

- do I understand correctly that borleyi AND moorii in the tank is too much fish? so pick one?
- do i even need the synos if all the cichlid choices are able to eat the fry? I was hoping for some bottom dweller scavenging but booth moorii and placidochromis seem to like sifting and feeding from the sand.
- what sort of price difference exists between juvies and sexed fish? and is the search also more time consuming?
- what is the approximate juvenile size typically?
Thanks a lot!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The 25 fish are sufficient for your tank. The cichlids will eat the fry and pick up food from the bottom (but don't let any drop). Since you will not have cross breeding, the occasional survivor should this occur will not be a problem.

Often you can't get sexed fish for all species...at least from reputable vendors. Juveniles tend to be 2" and cost $8. A sexed male will be at least $30 and often $50.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I feel the Moorii and Borleyi are filling up 3 slots in your proposed 5 species list, do to size potential.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Thank you everyone! This has been quite an education in cichlid species 

We picked 4 species to start - Yellow labs, A. latisfasciata, C. borleyi red fin and P. electra. For the 5th and final species, we are looking at P. acei or A. stuartgranti.
Could use some advice between the two species.

Also if the Astotilapia is not a good fit then P. acei and A. stuartgranti would both be in. Based on our current color palate and species mix, are there better suited Aulonocara sub-types than others? They are all beautiful and we liked the "Maleri" but here is another area we could use some help please.

In other good news, we hit the 24-hr ammonia conversion milestone today (23 days). 3 more days of testing which is perfect with my work travels next week and emails to vendors and LFS' to see what they are stocking!!!

Cant thank you folks enough for your time to read and respond so promptly with patience. :thumb:


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

If you're seeking colors and contrast, then choose the Acei(pseudotropheus sp. Acei yellow tail). This will give you some blue in a tank that needs it. Aulonocara females are mostly a brownish color, but you would probably have a couple/few males show color. For blue go with some of the Stuartgranti types like Cobwe(Cobue) or Ngara/Mdoka(Flametail).


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I agree with Iggy, a dark blue peacock. I love my cobue...the ngara may be too timid with your mix. What about a lemon jake?

The acei would have the advantage of colorful females though.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Thank you both!

I am researching sources to see how to get all these fish in a timely fashion to stock in 1-2 attempts.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Quality is more important than availability.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

I had a few remaining questions since it looks like my tank is cycled now!

Can 2 species of Aulonocara exist in the same tank as co-ed species? Will they hybridize like I learned abouyt S.fryeri and A.baenschi?
I dont plan on raising fry - how does hybridization of fry create issues? 
What is a good species order of stocking if its all juveniles? And how many stocking events would be recommended for a 125g tank with two filters?

I am laying my groundwork now for prep and I may dose ammonia one more time to keep the bacteria well fed for another 1-2 weeks so we can add fish when ready. Thank you so much!


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Stick with 1 Aulonocara. Females from one species to the next are so similar. They will hybridize. There's no real outlet for hybrids. And we as hobbyists need to take the necessary precautions to minimize the risk. Keeping the species pure is important. Lake Malawi could be 1 disaster away from being in serious trouble, threatening it's wildlife. If you do end up with hybrids, it's the responsibility of the keeper to keep them for their entire lifetime, or euthanize. Too often these fish get passed around. Sometimes they're unknowingly selling hybrids as pure fish. If you search this forum you'll see a whole mess of threads that cover this topic.

Add all juvies at once. You've developed a beneficial bacteria powerhouse. It can handle the load.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Stick with 1 Aulonocara. Females from one species to the next are so similar. They will hybridize. There's no real outlet for hybrids. And we as hobbyists need to take the necessary precautions to minimize the risk. Keeping the species pure is important. Lake Malawi could be 1 disaster away from being in serious trouble, threatening it's wildlife. If you do end up with hybrids, it's the responsibility of the keeper to keep them for their entire lifetime, or euthanize. Too often these fish get passed around. Sometimes they're unknowingly selling hybrids as pure fish. If you search this forum you'll see a whole mess of threads that cover this topic.
> 
> Add all juvies at once. You've developed a beneficial bacteria powerhouse. It can handle the load.


Thank you for the explanation against hybridization. Much appreciated. Also simplified any potential complications in the sourcing of fish 

An update and question.
My LFS (that took back my last lot of cichlids) can source all the juveniles for a price similar to the online retailers. I also have credit for the returned fish there and I am thinking of getting all the fish from them. The downside is that I am 2+ weeks from getting them in. My 72-hr Amm/Nitrite 0/0 was on May 8th.

So my questions are:
- should I dose ammonia to keep the bacteria "fed"? 
- how about the other parameters like pH, KH, GH? Monitor or let it be?
- Water changes to keep Nitrate in check is recommended to be small frequent changes rather than a big one. Am I ONLY changing water if Nitrates go above 40ppm or should I be changing 10-20% on a fixed schedule before the fish arrive?

This 2+ week wait will be a killer but I also dont want to lose the progress made so far. Thank you again for any advice!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

No need to dose ammonia. Your other parameters should be stable...but if you have already monitored this to determine they ARE stable, then you can test only when something unusual happens. Water changes are 50% weekly as a minimum and then more frequent or a higher percent if your nitrates are above 20ppm.

Be sure the retailer can provide fish with correct scientific names and collection points. I know my retailers order from a certain wholesaler, and I don't always like the care taken by this wholesaler with his fish ID.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> No need to dose ammonia. Your other parameters should be stable...but if you have already monitored this to determine they ARE stable, then you can test only when something unusual happens. Water changes are 50% weekly as a minimum and then more frequent or a higher percent if your nitrates are above 20ppm.
> 
> Be sure the retailer can provide fish with correct scientific names and collection points. I know my retailers order from a certain wholesaler, and I don't always like the care taken by this wholesaler with his fish ID.


I assume that the 50% WC is after the fish are added or should I be doing that pre-fish if nitrates > 20ppm? 
On a normal populated fish tank, is there other things to clean like filter parts, heater surfaces etc.? and how about the sand/gravel? Or should those be on a less frequent schedule? Thank you.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I do water and substrate and scrape the glass weekly and you want nitrates to be 10ppm after a change...20ppm before the next change. Thus 50% works nicely.

I do filters (canisters) about every 3 months. You can replace the fine filter pad. Just rinse the other media...don't discard. Sometimes I will do the fine filter pad monthly.

I never have to clean a heater unless the tank is the victim of an algae epidemic.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> I do water and substrate and scrape the glass weekly and you want nitrates to be 10ppm after a change...20ppm before the next change. Thus 50% works nicely.
> 
> I do filters (canisters) about every 3 months. You can replace the fine filter pad. Just rinse the other media...don't discard. Sometimes I will do the fine filter pad monthly.
> 
> I never have to clean a heater unless the tank is the victim of an algae epidemic.


Thank you. Since i have 2 filters should i stagger them or clean at the same time?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Initially you can stagger them. Once your tank is well established it won't matter.

Don't forget you are rinsing, not discarding. The bacteria will stick to the media through anything but the most violent cleaning. Just use tank water.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> Initially you can stagger them. Once your tank is well established it won't matter.
> 
> Don't forget you are rinsing, not discarding. The bacteria will stick to the media through anything but the most violent cleaning. Just use tank water.


Thanks a lot! Have a good plan in front of me while i wait to stock....

My 25g is coming along beautifully and is now fully stocked and seems to be stable. Right now I am testing the water everyday but I hope to get to weekly testing in 2-3 few weeks. Its also heavily planted so nitrates seems to be in better control at least in the initial stages and the plants have definitely grown in the 2 weeks since they went in.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

I have 3 species on order from my LFS. 8 juveniles per species (approx 2"). 2 more from <vendor name removed> once I know when the first 3 are arriving.

My question is about eventual population. If I end up with 2m:6f, then do I just rehome the male or should I aim for a 5 fish/species for maintaining tank equilibrium? Probably a premature question but figured to ask now before the fish arrive.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

It depends on the species. Some do best with 1m:4f...some with 1m:7f and some can tolerate extra males. Two males can be a problem...but in a 72" tank you could do 3m:9f of some species. And then of course reduce the number of species in the tank.

I usually just remove males that cause problems as they mature.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Wanted to do a final check on the fish species and collection points to make sure we are starting out right. Plan is to order 2" juvies and 8x per species and see where we end up. Also, if i need to separate out and hold fish, what is the smallest tank (volume and dimensions) I can get that will act as a "hospital" tank in the future?

Copadichromis borleyi Kadango ''Red Fin''
Placidochromis electra Likoma ''Deep Water''
Labidochromis caeruleus Lion's Cove ''Yellow Lab''
Pseudotropheus sp. ''Acei'' Luwala Reef ''Yellow Tail Acei''
Astatotilapia latifasciata Lake Kyoga ''Zebra''

I plan to add them to the tank at the same time. I dont have a way to quarantine them so hopefully it would not be a huge issue. Thank you.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Looks good. No need for quarantine if from the same source, generally. 10 gallon is the bare minimum. 20 gallon long better. Shove a sponge filter into one of your canisters so you're ready to go. Have a small air pump and heater for when the time comes.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Looks good. No need for quarantine if from the same source, generally. 10 gallon is the bare minimum. 20 gallon long better. Shove a sponge filter into one of your canisters so you're ready to go. Have a small air pump and heater for when the time comes.


How long does it take for a new sponge filter to become "established" in a cycled tank? I got a couple in for the new 20g Long and also for my tropical 25g. I was thinking of starting both filters in the tropical tank and then move one over to the new after a yet "unknown" time. And after placement in the new tank after getting established, should i go through an ammonia dosing test to confirm 24hr conversion and 72hr stability before putting any fish in?

Thank you.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

First batch of fish (borleyi, latifasciata and maleri) arrive tomorrow from a reputable online source!! So excited about this next "first attempt" at keeping cichlids!

Thanks for a lot of patience in answering my incessant questions!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

It takes 2 weeks to establish a filter from a cycled one. Be aware that when you do this, you are taking part of the beneficial bacteria from the established tank that was needed for the original tank to support the bioload. I don't like to remove more than 25% of the beneficial bacteria...and then test the original tank to know if a mini-cycle happens.

Yes in any new tank I would add ammonia and test. You may need to build more beneficial bacteria in the new tank (more than what came with the "established media"), to support the bioload of the new tank. But it will go faster than starting without any beneficial bacteria at all.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> It takes 2 weeks to establish a filter from a cycled one. Be aware that when you do this, you are taking part of the beneficial bacteria from the established tank that was needed for the original tank to support the bioload. I don't like to remove more than 25% of the beneficial bacteria...and then test the original tank to know if a mini-cycle happens.
> 
> Yes in any new tank I would add ammonia and test. You may need to build more beneficial bacteria in the new tank (more than what came with the "established media"), to support the bioload of the new tank. But it will go faster than starting without any beneficial bacteria at all.


Thanks, DJR! My 25g tropical is running an HOB and a canister and will get a sponge filter as well. The second sponge filter is the one that I plan to move to my "timeout tank" and the hope is that there are no major wars in the 125g cichlid tank in the interim. Good to know about the population densities - will be helpful in the future as well.
Thank you.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

It does not matter how many filters. Whether you have 20 filters or 1 filter...only the right number of beneficial bacteria to support the number/size of fish in the tank will grow.

So if you take a filter, you remove some of the required beneficial bacteria.

I find if you take 25% or less of the total established media...the other 75% can usually handle the load and grow back to 100% without a mini cycle in the source tank.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

If you place a new sponge in the 25, and then remove it in a few weeks, the 25 will be fine. Since your 125 is good to go I wouldn't bother adding a sponge filter since your current units are plenty sufficient. If you're just looking to seed the sponges for a hospital tank then just shove them in a canister basket. Remove when needed.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Thanks for the clarification!

Did a thorough tank cleaning this morning and "Finally" started stocking the 125g as of an hour ago! almost two months to when I had to return my cichlids from attempt one.

the little guys are figuring things out now  Left the lights off so they leave my 2 synos in peace as well. One more batch next week and then wait for the males and aggressors to show up! I am sure I will be back with more questions but so far so good!

Thank you


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Good luck man. I know it was a long journey...


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Back with a quick question due to stocking and wait times. Can the pseudotropheus Ngara white tail be safely substituted for the P. acei yellow tail/fin? The tank mates as a reminder are: astatotilapia, yellow labs, borleyi red fin, a. stuartgranti maleri and p. electra. all juvies now.

The last stocking will be the P. electra and the acei (white/yellow). thanks for any help and recommendation in terms of color palate as well.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Yes it will be a fine substitution. What you're losing is the color that the yellow tail provides.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Yes it will be a fine substitution. What you're losing is the color that the yellow tail provides.


Thanks Iggy. With the yellow labs and the maleri, maybe some white is called for. Appreciate the quick response.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

No problem. But I was more referring to the blue/blue purple of the yellow tail males and females. Ngara Acei won't live up to that. Malawi is chock full of blue fish. I think you'll be missing that in your display aquarium.


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## rookie-cichlid1978 (Mar 28, 2017)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> No problem. But I was more referring to the blue/blue purple of the yellow tail males and females. Ngara Acei won't live up to that. Malawi is chock full of blue fish. I think you'll be missing that in your display aquarium.


huh! I guess i completely missed the absence of blue. Maybe i will just wait it out and get the acei yellow tail. The Ngara white also has some banding (or looks like it) which would be similar to the zebras and the electra.

Thanks for paying attention when I should have!


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