# Overstocking - a question (pros & cons?)



## medusachic666

Hi there, I'm brand-new to the forum and don't know very much about cichlids, so please don't hate on me TOO much. 
While I don't keep fish myself, I work at a big box pet store, and one of my most important goals for myself is to really educate myself on the various cichlids that we carry so that I can give accurate and informed advice to our customers (who have often done less research than I have!)

** My Question **
I'm obviously familiar with the concept of overstocking African cichlid aquariums to reduce aggression. My question is this - if one were to just give the fish a LOT of space, like a couple hundred gallons, wouldn't the fish be "happier", assuming that everything was set up correctly? (i.e. creating a lot of rocky/cave-y hiding spots, CAREFULLY choosing which species to mix, blocking line of sight using decorations to help create separate territories, and obviously making sure gender ratios correct so none of the females get literally pestered to death)

I definitely understand the concept behind overstocking - in my mind I sort of liken it to the behavior seen in experiments with primates when they're in an overcrowded situation (or better yet, the way that people behave when they're all stuck riding on a crowded subway car); no one makes eye contact, and everyone tries very hard to stay within their own personal little bubble without touching anyone or even interacting with anyone at all.

Obviously fish are not people, but I wonder if anyone has any experience with - for lack of a better word - "understocking" an African cichlid aquarium, i.e. intentionally providing fish with more than enough tank space to establish a territory that won't overlap with another fish's personal space. In my head, I imagine the fish being healthier and more colorful and happier under such circumstances, but like I said, since I don't keep fish, I honestly have no idea, hence why I'm asking all of you! 

If I'm completely anthropomorphizing and totally missing the mark on this, I would really like to know (just break it to me gently please!)
My goal is just to learn as much as I can learn about these fish so that I can make sure that they're going to good homes.

Thanks in advance for your time and consideration!

TL;DR - What are the pros and cons to overstocking an African cichlid aquarium? Is it possible to increase the fishes' quality of life by providing them with an excess of tank space so that they can properly establish territory?


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## The Cichlid Guy

I imagine the main problem would be that many hobbyists don't have tanks over 125g, and those who do wouldn't devote that tank to just a few fish. 

Cichlids base their territories on footprint, so to give one fish a territory all to himself, with the idea of avoiding possible conflict, you would need more floor space than most store-bought tanks provide...for a single fish.

Overstocking seems to apply more to mbuna than the other groups, but can be helpful in many situations. Even in a large tank, it is preferable to overstock. I don't think there are any real cons to overstocking, from the fish's perspective. In parts of Lake Malawi, cichlids are found in groups denser than we keep, and for the same reasons.

You ask a valid question, and a good example can be seen in marine aquariums. Many saltwater fish, such as tangs, are found in HUGE numbers in nature. However, most hobbyists (aside from those with extremely large tanks) can keep only one fish from any given species, because the fish are too aggressive to live in small groups. Luckily for us, cichlids are usually smaller, easier to (over)stock, and easier to sex than many marine fish, so keeping groups of species is an option.


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## PhinFan1981

In my opinion compatibility is as important if not more so than overstocking.The biggest issue beginners dont realize that certain cichlids shouldn't be mixed. The box stores usually carry some of the most aggressive species out there. The aquatics EXPERT is usually an expert because when he interviewed he informed the manager he has kept goldfish all his life. The box stores are very misleading because a beginner will walk in and see Brichardi,Auratus,Kenyi,and venestus in the same tank and assume 1 of each will make a good combo...This is not the case. The expert tells them it absolutely will work in their 29 gallon tank. The beginner comes home a week or two later to find WW3 is going on in their home and now the beginner is discouraged and probably wont give cichlids a chance again. The fact of the matter is to give the hobby some research of the various types of cichlids your store will carry and tell customers this and that wont work will probably end up getting you fired for telling customers not to buy fish. But I commend you in trying to learn about the fish you will be working with. I could go on and on for days about cichlids and box stores,but I wont.The best thing I can suggest is reading some of the articles located on the homepage of this site...they are very informative and a great place to start.


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## PhinFan1981

LoL...the concept behind overstocking is too spread out the aggression among numerous fish. Understocking causes the more aggressive fish to single out the less aggressive fish. Thus makes life easier for the fish...especially the ones being bullied. This is more so with mbuna than most other types of cichlids. However most cichlids are better overstocked.


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## medusachic666

PhinFan1981 - I strive to NOT be that kind of expert! 
"Oh yeah, I've kept goldfish my whole life, they always live like at least 5 years, I'm totally awesome at fish keeping!"
NO. JUST NO. You've committed goldfish murder and you should be ashamed, not bragging about how you managed to keep some incredibly hardy fish alive for a fraction of its life expectancy!

I didn't get hired for my knowledge of fish, but I try to learn something new every day about the animals I've been tasked with caring for, from the birds to the reptiles to the many many different kinds of fish. Every time I'm able to share some new, important fact that I just learned with a customer, I beam because I'm so happy to get to share some newfound nugget of knowledge. 
ALSO, I totally tell customers that they shouldn't buy certain fish ALL THE TIME, it's the reason why I hate my fish customers lol is cause they don't listen to me until it's too late; the ones who come back after something has gone wrong either refuse to let me serve them because they know they were wrong, or they treat my word like gospel (though of course I ALWAYS tell them that they need to do some research on their own to be certain, cause my poor brain can only reliably hold so much information!)
I don't have as much power over the sale of fish as I'd like, but generally I'm permitted to spend as much time as I like trying to talk customers out of ill-advised purchases... and most of the time they generally get fed up with listening to me trying to teach them and then just leave the store; those customers can feel free to kill the other box store's fish, but they aren't going to kill mine if I have any say in the matter!

I've actually read a lot of the articles on this website, and I've used a lot of the basic stats as well as important factoids to try to compile a semi-comprehensive spreadsheet that gives the basic requirements for all of the African cichlids that we carry, as well as an additional word document that mentions all of the important information that doesn't easily fit into any basic category.
I really wish that my coworkers would utilize what I've made more frequently! I printed it all out and placed it in my special personal binder where I keep all of my off-the-clock research findings on all of our critters.

Sorry for the rant, I just get a little over-enthusiastic sometimes lol


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## PhinFan1981

I like your attitude. I wish more box store employees carried the same respect for the creatures in house as you do. Who knows...maybe it will rub off on some of your co-workers! The articles are great and give a good understanding of the basics. If you've read one article then your already ahead of the majority of your box store co-workers as far as cichlid knowledge.Keep up the good work. Our beloved cichlids appreciate it.


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## DJRansome

I think we need to define overstocking. Some think it means making your tank look like a goldfish feeder tank. To me that is not what we mean.

There is a proper level of overstocking. Ideally you would stock semi-peaceful fish where each male wants a square foot of the substrate. So in a 55G if you stock 3 species (1m:4f) you still have one square foot left over for leeway. To me, that is the proper level of overstocking. And ideally your nitrate would be 10ppm after a water change and not go over 20ppm 7 days later. That way a weekly 50% water change works perfectly.

I'm not into the idea that I can stock 2X as many fish as long as I change 50% 2X weekly.

There are fishkeepers out there who like tons of fish and call it overstocking. I think what they are recommending is something different.

The reason we want to do at least the proper level of overstocking and not understock is that the fish feel more comfortable in groups and it does help manage aggression so a trouble-maker has more than one victim to focus on. It's a balance though. More is not always better.

On a reef the school of fish can swim away any time...they are not locked in one place in a glass box.


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## medusachic666

Firstly, to The Cichlid Guy - sorry for failing to thank you for taking the time to respond to me when I replied earlier! Thanks for taking the time for my question. 

To DJRansome - the concept of feeling comfortable in groups and how that manages aggression; using what little knowledge I have, I'm guessing that you mean sort of like what I've seen with our Tiger Barbs - if you have like 10 of them in a tank, then usually no one single fish gets picked on over and over, whereas if you have only like 3, then two of them are likely to gang up on the other, and there's just one single individual who suffers all of the aggression (I imagine similar to what you see with male-to-female ratios when the male is... "persistent" lol... if he had only one gal he was chasing after, he would literally wear her out, whereas if there are a couple of females for each male, then his "amorous expressions of fishy love" aren't falling on just one female, they're being more evenly distributed across the group, thus meaning that each female gets a LITTLE worn out from the male fish expressing his passion, rather than one lone female being forced to endure all of the sexy sexy fishy overtures that the male fish has to offer) [Please excuse my colorful metaphors, it's been a long and rather dull day lol]


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## PhinFan1981

I still think in the scenario of the original posts question. The best thing to preach here is compatibility. Anyone who is familiar with these box stores will agree that there stock is misleading as far as the compatibility of these fish. I think we can establish that group stocking is not an option with these stores. We can also establish that most people buying fish at these stores are not gonna successfully overstock African cichlids anyways. A tetra h.o.b. 50gph filter is not gonna handle the bioload of an overstocked cichlud tank.


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## PhinFan1981

....apologies to pre-mature submit using a touchscreen phone to type.
back to finish what I was saying.The most important thing to learn is compatibility with these types of fish. As an employee of a box store without any knowledge of fish... learn the cichlid compatibility basics. Forget worrying about overstocking or understocking...START with compatibility and learn what size tanks these fish need to thrive. If you do that maybe we will see one less "help my Auratus is attacking my peacock" type post in the future.


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## medusachic666

LMAO that's what the charts I made are for!
I made a chart that lists minimum tank size, general water parameters, aggression level (compared to other African cichlids), conspecific compatability (i.e. hostility) and then my word document goes into more details about who to put them with.
Actually, if anyone has time, I would really love to get some knowledgeable peer reviews on what I've compiled; I want to come up with a quick and easy way to generally determine which African cichlids might theoretically get along okay versus which ones you shouldn't attempt to house together under normal circumstances.

Here's my basic, quick spreadsheet
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

And here's my assorted facts word document
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Vxz ... sp=sharing

Please be as kind as you can, I'm doing my best with what limited knowledge I have, I know that I know nothing compared to all of you.


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## medusachic666

PhinFan1981 said:


> Anyone who is familiar with these box stores will agree that there stock is misleading as far as the compatibility of these fish. I think we can establish that group stocking is not an option with these stores. We can also establish that most people buying fish at these stores are not gonna successfully overstock African cichlids anyways. A tetra h.o.b. 50gph filter is not gonna handle the bioload of an overstocked cichlud tank.


And this is why I spend so much of my personal time trying to learn more so that I can hopefully do better!
Your assessment is depressingly accurate.
It's true, basically my entire customer base hasn't done a lick of research and they want what they want and "it's just a fish" and I have to tell them, "No, it's not 'just a fish', it's a FISH, it's a living breathing creature and it deserves to go to a home where it will be happy, instead of sitting in some horribly small tank for a few months before it finally perishes, just because you thought it looked pretty but you weren't willing to invest in the set up that the poor thing needed in order for it to survive."

It's sort of how like people who actually KNOW reptiles would NEVER buy reptiles from a box store unless the store had an awesome morph on their hands and didn't know it lol

Sorry, I have a LOT of pent up frustrations, and basically no outlets lol.
Thanks to the 2 people thus far who have looked at my chart/word doc, I'm really looking forward to some input so that I can make what I have a LOT better so that I can help to really improve the quality of care and general knowledge at my store!


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## PhinFan1981

After looking at your spread sheet I think I can guess what your store is. I sent you a private message...let me know if i guessed right. Your spread sheet is pretty thorough for a beginner. You have done a lot more research than you originally let on.Or you are incredibly ambitious. LoL


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## The Cichlid Guy

PhinFan1981 said:


> After looking at your spread sheet I think I can guess what your store is. I sent you a private message...let me know if i guessed right. Your spread sheet is pretty thorough for a beginner. You have done a lot more research than you originally let on.Or you are incredibly ambitious. LoL


I think I can guess, too. 

I've done similar spreadsheets for the fish in my personal tanks, but you've actually gone further in-depth than I did. For the most part, the information looks accurate.

In my area, the chain I'm guessing you work for houses Demasoni with Sunshine Peacocks, and Yellow Labs with Convicts, so the work you're doing is incredibly important, allowing you to help educate customers and hopefully prevent unnecessary deaths in the future.


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## PhinFan1981

Thank you Cichlid guy...im glad somebody here other than myself recognizes the importance of this thread. 
It goes a long way to actually have a chance to assist somebody who is in the position to make a little difference in the approach box stores take when selling these types of fish. 
Like I pointed out before this is where the "help my auratus is trying to kill my frontosa" threads we see all too often usually start from. The species in these stores just happen to be some of the most aggressive out there. I am gonna take the time today to put together a short list of compatibility and incompatibility...regarding the species that frequent these stores. Hey...if one customer gets decent advice and doesn't make a major no no purchase,then its worth it.


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## PhinFan1981

Medusachic=I will message you a quick crash course on the compatibility of the fish you normally carry. Your spreadsheet I pretty thorough and well put together,but a fairly quick chart of dos and don'ts will be easier to translate to your inexperienced customers. We wont make the chart too strict...as you do have to sell some fish.


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## medusachic666

PhinFan1981 said:


> Hey...if one customer gets decent advice and doesn't make a major no no purchase,then its worth it.


That's exactly the way I look at it - I can't control what other places are telling these customers, but if I can help even one of my fish find a good home where it can thrive, then it's worth all of the time that I put in to everything.


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## hisplaceresort1

There IS hope for the big box stores... great thread! so encouraging...


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## medusachic666

hisplaceresort1 said:


> There IS hope for the big box stores... great thread! so encouraging...


Thanks! I try (in case you couldn't tell lol)
I love learning new things, and most importantly I really feel the need to send fish off to good homes where they'll be able to thrive, and it's pretty difficult to figure out if a customer has an adequate set up if you don't know what the fish actually need! lol
Some day I hope to have a chart for all of the fish that we carry at my store... but that's gonna take me a LONG time to research and compile lol.

Thanks again to everyone for all of the feedback! I really appreciate all of the help and advice that has been offered; I'm really enjoying all of the new stuff I'm learning!


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