# Where to get wild or F1 blue rams?



## AdamP (Mar 26, 2011)

I am looking for wild or early generation blue rams. I cant seem to find them anywhere. I want to get some fish with good genetics. They are always available in my area from LFS, but they seem to be incapable of raising fry and also prone to genetic illness. all the rams which have died under my care have had the same symptoms of septicemia, and it is getting frustrating.

thanks for any help!


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*AdamP*
I don't think it is wise to assume that your difficulties are due to genetics, and it is even less wise to assume that wild caughts will lack these traits. Eating of eggs is often a natural reaction to any threat to fry. You can imagine that reclaiming energy spent on eggs prior to something else eating them is plain smart genes!

What do you mean by "genetic" illnesses? If they were standard aquarium fish illnesses like septicimia, then there is nothing "genetic" involved there.


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## Chromedome52 (Jul 25, 2009)

Actually, most of the fish that have so much trouble are tank raised in the far east, but it is not the genetics that are bad. They are raised in large quantities by combining many spawns into one tank/vat, and over medicated with antibiotics to avoid the common diseases that would run rampant in such severely overcrowded conditions. Problem is, this also prevents them from developing the immunity that they would normally have. In addition, there is now some evidence that overmedication destroys natural bacteria that aid in digestion, leaving them unable to digest food properly. Weakened by poor digestion and unable to fight off disease, they are doomed from the minute they leave the fish breeders. All the wholesaler cares about is selling them before they can die.

There are a few specialty importers who bring in wild fish directly from South America. Also, the real German strain Rams, with the extremely dark black markings, are usually much stronger, as they are not produced in the far east. A few are still imported from Germany by those specialty importers, but most are actually produced by hobbyist/breeders. They are also more capable of raising their spawns. I've seen a few wild Rams, they are as efficient at raising a spawn as any other Cichlid. The mass produced garbage that we've gotten used to has given the species a bad rep.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2011)

idk *** had extremely bad luck with german rams... they all die.. *** probly bought 30 of them over a few months.. they always die... bolivians rarely die... it seems they like a dark planted tank with really low ph water... and i figure thats why they always die.. but those antibiotic reasons also sound really convincing... however how come this happens with german rams more so than any other fish? *** basically jus given up on buying or keeping german rams.. i have 1 left in my tank we'll see how long she lives... def not throwing money out anymore buying more...i had alot of them jus disseaper so i couldnt even get credit from the online breeder...


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## AdamP (Mar 26, 2011)

The LFS in my area always have rams, and i am sure they get them all from the same distibutor. I have been keeping them since 2005 with varied results. Sometimes they will live for over a year, i think the longest lived rams I have had have still been under 2 years before they get what appears to be septicemia. Their stomachs swell up and sometimes get pop eye as well.

I am in the Portland, OR area and the tap water here is great for soft water fishes. KH ~1.5, GH ~2.5. The rams are usually happy and healthy, then one day they are suddenly sick and there is no saving them, about 3 days later they are dead..

most recently I had a male and female in a 20 gallon tank, with 2 corys and 5 ottos. They were eating frozen blood worms and omega one cichlid pellets and spawning every 3 weeks (no eggs surviving). Everything is going great one day, then the next day the male is hiding in the corner with pop eye in one eye. I started daily 25% water changes, and treated with Melafix. He seemed to get a little better and started eating again, then he quickly declined and stomach swelling became noticable. From the time he started showing symptoms to the time of death was 4 days!

The female ram and all other fish in the tank seem fine so far..

I know it may not be genetics, but I would still liek some rams that arent from a mass production fish farm. If anyone knows any local breeders or hobbysists willing to ship fish let me know. I actually don't want wild caughts, just fish that aren't too in bred. F1, F2,F3, heck F10 even would be fine. Just not farmed F10,000. :roll:

thanks!


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

I doubt it is inbreeding to blame since (as Chromedome points out) the sins of mass produced fish are a far more likely culprit. My suggestion is exactly where you just headed... find locally bred rams and you will be far more likely to succeed.

To find high quality Rams (and I have no idea what filial number they'd be :lol: ) you can place a wanted ad in our Trading Post. You'd be amazed who looks there to sell fish. Members can also send you Private Messages with seller recommendations.

I do know of a great Ram breeder locally here in the Tampa FL area and I know he ships so I'll send you Joe's info in a PM. :thumb:


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## Chromedome52 (Jul 25, 2009)

mike715m, you are probably NOT getting German Rams. The identifiers for the German strain of Blue Ram are: standard black markings, i.e., the V-bar on the eye, the first 3-4 rays of the dorsal, the front edge of the ventrals, and the lateral spot are all very dark, and DO NOT FADE. In addition, they have a much larger lateral spot than even most wild caught _ramirezi_, usually more than half the body height (almost like a wide bar), and this almost always either extends into the dorsal, or there is a corresponding dark black spot in the dorsal directly above the lateral spot.

Too many people are marketing common Rams as "German Blue", probably because these fish have a reputation of being hardier than the Asian bred fish. Just because it has some black markings does not make it a German strain fish, they have to match the description above. There is absolutely no such thing as a German Gold Ram.

The other problem is that most people try to keep _Mikrogeophagus ramirezi _at 78-80. These fish live in shallow areas with little cover, and water temperatures in the wild often get above 90 F. The best temperature range for them is 82-86.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Not sure if anyone pointed this out as I did not read every post in it's entirity, but wild rameriz do not look very much like the German bred lines. They are rather pale and have subtle colours.


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## adam79 (Jun 27, 2007)

Have you checked The Wet Spot? They have wilds on there fish list.


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## Bruce Haynes (Sep 8, 2010)

Jeff Rapps has some wild caught rams on his list.


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