# breeding cichlids and avoiding hybrids



## Artimes Winter (Apr 20, 2017)

hi, I have a tank that I have been breeding in, currently I take the female out of the tank and put her in a nursery when I notice she is carrying. My tank is a little to large to chase her, so I close the caves that the holding female hides in and put the whole cave in a 39g nursery . They are in a two meter cube tank (about 6 feet in every direction and two feet deep). Not all of the females are ever in the tank at any given time, and there is only one male of each species present. I'll admit with my new tank (2 years ago) I dove into the cichlid hobby which I knew nothing about. I abandoned my plans to breed axolotl and took home a bunch of tiny silver-colourless fish under the faith that they would colour up within the next few months. And boy did they! Now I am selling their offspring to nearby fish stores for store credit and my tank looks AMAZING!

Okay bragging over, here's where my inexperience shows, I went to drop off a brood and the store refused to pay for them. They claimed that because I don't keep the flamebacks and steveni separate I am trying to sell hybrids. they would take them as feeders but could not take them as pure bloods. I can tell the difference between the females of all my species, but can they breed with each other? would they? My electric blues are out in the open when they breed but the flamebacks aren't; I've never caught them breeding. I feel bad that I may have just sullied the breeding pool of my town, and also that I have had the fish for so long without taking the time to really research them as much as I could. The store manager who knows that I sell the fry all the time also told me that my johanni would breed with my electric blues, and my dragonblood with my orange and blue peacocks(they ALL have blue on them if that matters).

My local specialist said it was possible and I should give up all my breeds except one as any of my fish can breed with any other and will if they don't have their own females to harass. Before I cull the broods, or get rid of my studs I need to be sure.

I am breeding within the same tank 
Protomelas Steveni
Kyoga flameback
venustus
johanni 
Electric Blues
dragon blood
orange and blue peacock
snow whites


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Electric blue??? What fish do you have, that could describe multiple fish.

Snow whites? Socolofi???

dragon blood, and orange and blue peacocks can and will hybridize.


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## Aaron S (Apr 4, 2015)

There are two arguments really...

1. All mouthbrooders are physically capable of generating fry with each other.
2. It is generally accepted that if you have very different looking fish with the correct male/female ratio then you are LIKELY to not get hybrids on purpose. I have heard that you may be able to get some weird stuff happening when two sets are spawning in high current tanks.

At the end of the day, I doubt you would win an argument with the stores you are trying to sell to since it is possible. One of the breeders I go to for fish has an all-male tank and a bunch of tanks for the females of one species (separate). Periodically she removes the male from the all-male tank and puts him in with the ladies of his species to impregnate all of them then removes him again. I think you need to decide if you want to sell fry and how careful you can/want to be. I would talk to the stores and see what changes you should do to your tank for them to accept fish then decide if that is worth it to you. Alternatively, have a few other tanks with some females to breed with and have a similar strategy that I described above.


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## Artimes Winter (Apr 20, 2017)

Fogelhund said:


> Electric blue??? What fish do you have, that could describe multiple fish.


Sciaenochromis ahli
and the snow whites are albino red zebras.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Well, they won't be ahli, but most likely fryeri.

Scieanochromis fryeri and peacocks often hybridize, so I'd avoid mixing these.

Snow whites are albino red zebras? That's a new one to me.

If you went with...

Protomelas Steveni
Kyoga flameback
venustus
johanni 
Scieanochromis fryeri
Albino Red Zebras

Your hybridization risk would be pretty low... assuming each of the species had 3-6 females. Despite the size of the tank, the johanni run the risk of being hyperdominant, and aggressive, so you will want to keep an eye on that.

If the electric blues were actually electric blue johanni aka maingano Pseudotropheus cyanaeorhabdos, there would be a hybridization risk with johanni.... but the odds of a johanni x fryeri hybridization are about as slim and unlikely as anything you could mix.


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## Artimes Winter (Apr 20, 2017)

okay, thank you.

I was told the electric blues are similar to yellow labs. I wish I could take a picture. 
I'll get rid of my other two breeds and try to be more vigilant. I never really thought of my orange/blues as peacocks, I didn't know they were until a few days ago because the females and the males have the same colouring.


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## Artimes Winter (Apr 20, 2017)

Artimes Winter said:


> okay, thank you.
> 
> I was told the electric blues are similar to yellow labs. I wish I could take a picture.
> I'll get rid of my other two breeds and try to be more vigilant. I never really thought of my orange/blues as peacocks, I didn't know they were until a few days ago because the females and the males have the same colouring.


I meant when I first got the electric blues that is.


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## Artimes Winter (Apr 20, 2017)

Aaron S said:


> There are two arguments really...
> 
> 1. All mouthbrooders are physically capable of generating fry with each other.
> 2. It is generally accepted that if you have very different looking fish with the correct male/female ratio then you are LIKELY to not get hybrids on purpose. I have heard that you may be able to get some weird stuff happening when two sets are spawning in high current tanks.
> ...


That is something I am willing to do if necessary, however I would like to try to avoid doing that if possible. my nursery is a shared one (multiple females, or brood and a female) so I would have to considerably cut back on my species list. I am willing to do that, especially to ensure the future of the species but I want to see all the options like is it possible if I get rid of the dragon's blood and the ob peacocks to visually see the fry and know? Wouldn't at least some of the fry look like the father's species when they swim out of the mother's mouth? my species were chosen to be VERY diverse, but if they were more so could I avoid hybridization?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Artimes Winter said:


> okay, thank you.
> 
> I was told the electric blues are similar to yellow labs. I wish I could take a picture.
> I'll get rid of my other two breeds and try to be more vigilant. I never really thought of my orange/blues as peacocks, I didn't know they were until a few days ago because the females and the males have the same colouring.


Do you have a smart phone with camera? You could take a picture with that?


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## Artimes Winter (Apr 20, 2017)

I have the pictures on my phone but I can't seem to upload them. Maybe because I'm new?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Uploading pictures-

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=255436


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## Artimes Winter (Apr 20, 2017)

This is one of the electric blues I was talking about

I apologize for taking so long. I shut the page down and couldn't find this site again. I had to dig through my spam folder. :S sorry again.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Didn't work. Click on the Preview tab before uploading to see if the pic shows up.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

It looks like a Pseudotropheus socolofi almost... maybe a hybrid of one? They certainly aren't very close to being related to a Yellow Lab, or any more a risk than anything else to hybridize with it.

http://s1356.photobucket.com/user/Artim ... t=3&page=1


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The LFS may still refuse to buy fish or may insist on species tanks as a criteria for buying from you. Many LFS will not buy from hobbyists at all and those that do tend to pay in store credit and only accept fish they want to sell and/or have tank space for.

I bought from a hobbyist who claimed he could ID the fry in a mixed tank...never again. :thumb:


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## Artimes Winter (Apr 20, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> The LFS may still refuse to buy fish or may insist on species tanks as a criteria for buying from you. Many LFS will not buy from hobbyists at all and those that do tend to pay in store credit and only accept fish they want to sell and/or have tank space for.
> 
> I bought from a hobbyist who claimed he could ID the fry in a mixed tank...never again. :thumb:


I'm quickly understanding that, but I never let the fry mix. I met a few other people doing the same thing and what a mess! They weren't even culling and they wanted money for all the offspring. no, not for me, I've moved the species apart and segregated the tank. the orange and blues, 'electric blues' (or that hybrid) and the johanni were rehomed today, to species only tanks in their new home. I can't bear to part with my venestus or my firebacks or my steveni. . . . such personality.


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## Artimes Winter (Apr 20, 2017)

Fogelhund said:


> It looks like a Pseudotropheus socolofi almost... maybe a hybrid of one? They certainly aren't very close to being related to a Yellow Lab, or any more a risk than anything else to hybridize with it.
> 
> http://s1356.photobucket.com/user/Artim ... t=3&page=1


thank you, I'll make sure to do it right next time. I'm rehoming most of the species, and just sticking to my favourites, right now segregated in the large tank, I might keep them in there separated about a foot apart with plants between them. Most likely I'm going to be buying 40 g tanks and turning the large tank into an planted tank or something.


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