# Disturb Rocks Substrate vs. Search for dead fish: Ammonia



## FishFishBoy (Feb 4, 2009)

Hi,

here is my question, a detailed explanation of how I got to this point follows if that matters:

After disturbing my tank and equipment my four month old 75g has ammonia spiked on its 20 juvie mbuna inmates. They are hunkered down in their shelters when they usually come out and play all day. A few demasoni have come to the surface (where they would never before go even for food) to gulp air. No one seems to be on the brink of death yet but their gills are all chugging away visibly. I test with api test solutions and got a reading of 4.0.

What should I do? I have poured about $50 of bacteria starter in, using many brands including what in my experience is a very reputable local brand. I have also used ammo-lock, reluctantly.

I realize the ammo lock may have made things worse in the long run but felt i had to do something.

What can I do now? Will water changes (and how much) further disturb the bacteria colonies? My emergency is compounded by the fact that new mail order fish are arriving today which I ordered back when all is well.

My 75g has a mature fluval 405, plus an recently added fx5 that probably has no effective colonies yet, but lots of capacity to build them.

Thanks!

FFB

How I got here:

First, I ordered fish online to add to my mbunas and they were the wrong ones, I realized after putting them in my tank. I got my money back but to net these fry I had to take out all my rocks and plants, everything, to catch them and give them away. Then, while I was at it I figured I would make the substrate change I was always wanting to do. I took out all my crushed coral and replaced it with flourite, replaced everything and all seemed well dispite the disturbance and what turned out to be about a %50 water change. Then I became concerned about ph and hardness due to the coral being out and remembered that my mature fluval 405 had one little back of peat granules in it. I opened it, removed two chambers of bio media delicately, then took out the peat, replaced it with carbon, put the bio media back and switched on a again. The fluval spit out some particulate matter disturbed by the operation. Soon after, my tank tanked.

I was surprised that such a little disturbance ruined my biofilter. I didnt even clean or replace anything. I would be extremely reticent to ever service my filter again now. Of course, it was probably the whole make-over plus this slight disturbance of the filter that did it. Anyway, that is how I got my mbunas in this uncomfortable position, and more will arrive in the next hours, and I have no other tank.

Thanks! FFB


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## Stickzula (Sep 14, 2007)

Ok, first thing, get some Prime or Safe and use the max dose. This should get the amonia down to a managable amount. Then start dosing with a bacteria builder like bio-spira or stabilize. Make make sure you have an adequate amount of bio media in your fluval. I have found that hob's provide better bio filtration than canisters, but that is just my experience and I'm sure that others have different opinions. I would reccomend getting an emperor 400.

You will need to keep an eye on the amonia levels and do water changes as necessary. I would start with 25% daily until you start to level out. The bacteria lives on the surfaces in the aquarium and in the filter and are not water born so doing water changes will not remove the bacteria, just the amonia. I would suspect that when you changed your substrate, you removed a good portion of the bacteria and the remaining bacteria was unable to handle the bio load. I would not suspect that changing from peat to carbon had that much affect on your bio load.

I hope this helps, let us know how it turns out.


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## CichlidWhisperer (Apr 12, 2008)

I would do 50% water changes daily until the level returns to zero. One good thing is that you probably already have bacteria in there, just not enough... So they should multiply and bring the ammonia down pretty fast. I have used Biospira (it recently changed it name) for new tanks and never even had an ammoni spike, so hopefully it will help you too.


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## FishFishBoy (Feb 4, 2009)

thanks!

i did a 50% change this morning because my amonia levels were at least 8.0 after posting (thats as high as my test kit goes). I can keep up with frequent water changes and will keep pouring dollars of bacteria in my tank, I guess right after each water change.

it is strange that after the substrate change things were ok. probably my cannister could hold its own against the disruption to the substrate. but one little disturbance of the cannister was enough to set the whole thing out of whack.

I have two cannisters one rated for 100gal and one rated for 400gal on my 70 gal tank so that should work in the long run, but the 400gal one is new.

I have not fed my fish since this started: they are now on day 2 of their fast.

thanks again!

FFB


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## CichlidWhisperer (Apr 12, 2008)

I ahd another thought: Do you have any other tanks with cannister filters? I set up a new tank and simply took the canister filter from a well established tank. There must have been enough bacteria in the gravel of the old tank and filter to seperately support tanks because there was no ammonia or nitrite spike in either tank.... Maybe you could do the same?


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## FishFishBoy (Feb 4, 2009)

oh i forgot: does prime or safe damage the bacteria colonies and slow this process down?

is prime or safe the same stuff as ammo lock? (binding to ammonia, changing it into a safe form that remains in the tank until nitrified).

thanks!

FFB


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## SupeDM (Jan 26, 2009)

First off I agree 50% daily water changes with prime dosed accordingly is the only thing you can do. Beware the Live bacteria culture snake oils as most of the time they are a joke. If you have a fish friend nearby see if you can get a active filter from them just keep the media or pads submerged in aquarium water untill you get it on your tank. also possibly lower the temp a couple degrees to allow for more dissolved oxygen in the water. And put in extra airstones for incresaed surface agitation.


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## FishFishBoy (Feb 4, 2009)

thanks!

i have quite a bit in the dept of airstones and pumps so I can really agitate the water.

i can also lower temp: great suggestion!

i dont have an extra tank or another filter to add on.

i will go on craigslist to see if i can find someone to give me old filter media or sludge

also i suppose i can try to find a tank on craigslist with an operating filter and hook it up.

Unfortunately the new fish arrived and after 15 min of swimming around they are all up on the surface gulping air, unlike the old fish that are in some kind of shut-down trance most of them.

thanks!

FFB


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## CichlidWhisperer (Apr 12, 2008)

Most fish stores will give you their old filter media. You might want to try that as it will be a quicker source than Craigslist.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I would suggest doing as many partial water changes a day as it takes to get that level back down to zero. The longer your fish sit in this water, the more potential damage you are doing to their health.

Adding the chemicals hasn't helped matters any.

It's going to take some work to straighten this out, but I would start doing a 30% water change every 1-2 hours until I got rid of the ammonia, even if it means setting the alarm to do so. I would also use Prime to help detox the ammonia that is there.

And, stop feeding them until you get things straightened out with the water. When you do resume feeding, do so sparingly.

It probably wasn't the filter maintenance that did this.

You likely released bacterial pockets from the substrate when you removed and replaced it.

Am I understanding that you added new fish to the tank while this is going on???


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## SupeDM (Jan 26, 2009)

Do a water change!!!! they should not be gulping for air. If you dont have the right dechlorinator this may be a chloramine problem. There is a great chart in the library about the different water treatment products. If yours doesnt break the chloramine bond This could be your problem. API tap water conditioner needs to be used with ammo lock together. seperately they dont get the job done. Thats why I use prime. To answer your other question prime will not harm the bacteria in the filters.http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/rev-cond.htm here is a link to the chart. upon looking at it ammo lock does break the chloramine bond so use it full strength as it may help.


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## FishFishBoy (Feb 4, 2009)

i have been using tetra aquasafe which has a yes in every column of the chart.
i have also been using api stresscoat which contains an ammonia binder.
and, i have been using ammo lock

i am unsure about some of the responses because some people are saying using these chemicals is not helping, while others are saying to use prime, etc.

i am fairly certain that chloramine is not an issue as i had no problems before disturbing my substrate.

i will look into finding prime although i have not seen it in my fish stores...

also: i think i will go the route of frequent water changes as long as everyone agrees it will not slow the cycle down too much. i am willing to work to help the fish...

thanks so much, and my fish, as you know, would appreciate it too if they knew...

FFB


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

You can't worry about slowing down the cycle at this point. You've got fish that are going to die if you don't act quickly.

My point about the additives is that you put all that in the tank when all you had to do was do water changes! But one a day isn't going to do the job! Not when your ammonia is off the charts...

This can cause organ failure in your fish. There will be nothing you can do if this happens.

This is why you either need to do a fishless cycle or cycle the tank with fish you don't intend to keep long term. Adding the new fish hasn't helped the situation any...They should have been quarantined, and now you might find yourself dealing with multiple problems healthwise.


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## FishFishBoy (Feb 4, 2009)

yeah, this is not my finest hour

unfortunately i have no cycled tanks to put my fish in so i cant do a fishless cycle. the tank actually was fully cycled and everyone was having a ball before i disturbed the whole thing.

now all the fish have been exposed to high ammonia but they seem better now that i am doing water changes practically constantly and also treating the water.

FFB


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## FishFishBoy (Feb 4, 2009)

This is a terrible question to have to ask, but i changed my substrate and had an ammonia disaster. I have been doing drastic water changes all day to keep my fish alive.

I hesitate to touch any rocks which i have plenty of. Many of my fish are in hiding and some come out now. I am not feeding them so hoping that i can stop constant water changes.

But there might be dead bodies in my rocks, which will produce ammonia.

Which is worse, to disturb my rocks or leave dead fish in the tank. It probably is not more than one or two but maybe none.

I did this to them by changing the substrate and disturbing all the rocks in the first place. So i am afraid to touch anything.

Any advice?

thanks,

FFB


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Just keep up the good work until your ammonia is back to zero!

Good luck!


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## PaulineMi (Apr 3, 2008)

Fishfishboy....so sorry to hear you're going through this. I speak from experience! I did a major cleaning while rearranging rocks to help prevent aggression when adding new fish. The end results weren't pretty because, unlike you, I didn't realize this could cause the water parameters to go haywire!

Believe everyone when they tell you to keep doing water changes everyday. It seems that clean water, "pristine conditions", is the great healer (thanks Robin & cichlidaholic and others). People on this forum are really helpful if you make mistakes and are able to accept advice.

Based on info gleaned from the experienced, and I'm ready to stand corrected if this is wrong...It may be possible that some of your fish will have been weakened by the high ammonia conditions. AFTER everything seems back to normal it will remain necessary to keep them in ultra pure water. Your fish can be adversely affected by stressors later on.

Best of luck to you :thumb:


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## FishFishBoy (Feb 4, 2009)

I have two questions now:

1. i am unclear about using prime and whether prime itself causes false positive ammonia tests, or if it just converts ammonia to safe form which then of course still tests as ammonia. The reason i need to know which is right is because i am doing water changes with prime and still getting ammonia levels. if it is safe ammonia, i am ok with that for the moment.

2. i still dont know if I should move around/disturb my rocks to look for dead fish, or if it would be better to leave them in there. Probably it is a hard call. I cant see any dead fish looking at all angles but I made my tank very hidey holey which seemed a good thing until now.

yes, this has been terrible. i am really gentle and mean no harm to any creature. whatever i feel is nothing compared to what they feel.

luckily i had the day off yesterday so i actually was doing 50% water changes every 2-3 hours, and supplementing bacteria starter (just in case, although of course i must have a significant colony left from before). i was also using prime in the water changes. today i can only do one change before i am off to work. My ammonia levels still get as high as 1.0 but the fish seem okay now, and they swarm to me hungrily although i cant give them any food now.

FFB


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## CichlidWhisperer (Apr 12, 2008)

Are any fish missing? I keep very definite checks on the fish in my tanks and if any are missing at any point I look for them until I find them. I would think with 20 juvies, you should be able to keep an accurate count on them.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I've never gotten a false positive with Prime, but others say that they have. (I believe it's only API test kits that will do this???) What is your ammonia reading now?

At this point, it's more important to remove dead fish than anything else. You'll be fighting a losing battle if you don't. Just make sure you check the water parameters after putting everything back in place.

And PaulineMI is right...You aren't out of the woods just yet. Your fish are going to be very stressed for a while, making them more susceptible to illness than usual.

Your mistakes are no worse than anyone elses! We've all done crazy things. I stuck my arm in a tank once right after I put that self tanning lotion on!


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## FishFishBoy (Feb 4, 2009)

Thanks for your support. part of that support is emotional. i still feel bad about what i did but i know that i honestly did not mean it.

i had four deaths that i could find without disturbing rocks. but i have a very hidey holey set up and there is no way to know where all the fish are. most are swimming about normally. some are very lethargic and i worry about whether they will be the same again. and others i have not seen but i dont know who is who really in my tank. i will have to go searching for bodies.

i use api test tube kits to test. is there something else i could use? my levels after several hours are down to about 1.0. But zero seems impossible. I am hoping the presence of prime can stem the damage of the 1.0, because everything i do cant seem to get it down. My body cant keep up the level of water changes that I have been doing, so its going to have to be a max of two changes tomorrow. Lugging around buckets of water is not going great for me.

hopefully there is a zero reading in my future but that seems impossible right now...

thanks again,

FFB


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## 55gal (Jan 19, 2009)

The reason why you got the ammonia spike is because you disturbed the substrate, which in turn caused stress to your fish, and may have caused your fish to get diseased.

You should vac the substrate every couple of months depending on what your fish load is in your tank and the amont of food your feeding them. Decaying food on the substrate will cause your ammonia levals to increase, better to feed two small portions a day then one large.

What I have been feeding my fish is pellets, that float on the surface. After a little bit they start to sink and the bottem feeders will get theirs. And if I see any floating around after about 5-10 min. I remove them from the tank before they sink to the substrate, which helps to keep it clean. Just another idea.

And I agree the only way your going to get the ammonia level down is by performing small wc 15-20% every few hours.

Good Luck


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