# ILLNESS? Just lost 8 fish HELP!



## Ripleybelieves (Feb 19, 2009)

The first indication of trouble was from the newest Peacock (lovely that he wasâ€¦.) literally "fell" from the top of the tank to the bottom and just laid there â€¦. I tested everything right away and no problems with nitrates, ammonia and pH. I did an immediate water change in the event something could alleviate the issue and added some buffer (my water is normally acid) but had immediate issue when the pH was 9! Did another water change and after testing it was done to 7 pH and added a smidge of buffer - again 9! Third water change and left OUT the buffer! 
I did a test and no fish were eating so I figured I had shocked them pretty good without intent...

Later in the evening I was having more fish fall 'from the sky' and collapsing on the bottom â€¦ by Day 2 I had lost 8 fish! I didn't know if the problem was gone or not ... tested with food and the lack of interest was not good. Some were moving around and some were hiding ...
That evening I tested again with a few crumbs and 1-2 fish took samples but without the usual enthusiasm....

Day 3 - fish were moving about the tank more but still substantially more restrained than normal â€¦ later in day, slightly more fish came to eat bits of food but enthusiasm was still not there per normal. There are a total of 12 relatively small fish in the tank currently (one 1â€


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

Was your tank cycled before you added the fish three weeks ago? Are you using liquid reagent tests or strips? If using the latter, run to the store and get the liquid tests so you can be certain what is going on. If you're using liquid tests, make sure your test isn't old and that you're using it correctly. Ammonia gets more toxic at higher pH levels, so in addition to subjecting your fish to wide swings of pH, you may have inadvertently made any ammonia that is present more toxic. You can add Prime directly to your aquarium water if you suspect this is a problem.

I'm not sure why your pH is so low to start or why the buffer was causing such incredible swings . . .

To provide more specific help, others will need to know:

Stocking list
Size of tank

Good luck!


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## Ripleybelieves (Feb 19, 2009)

The tank is a 55 gallon - well water with no chlorine has been no problem for years with prior fish. Substrant is gravel - was going to change to Coral substrant when this all happened so I am awaiting some settling down before proceeding ...

Cascade canister filtration system (1000 series), air stone additional

Current remaining occupants include 1 Yellow Lab, 2 Kenyi, 2 Electric Blue, 1 Bumblebee and three other surviving cichlids -PLUS 2 S. American Cichlids (1 Green Terror and one unknown) - none of these are much over 2-1/2" and only one very small 'survivor' cichlid (1") plus 1 placo... total of 12 cichlids (all small) and 1 placo (also relatively small at 4")... :-?

I am stumped ---current recommendation is remove all gravel and everything in tank EXCEPT limestone and do small partial water changes daily ....


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## Ripleybelieves (Feb 19, 2009)

Sorry, yes thoroughly cycled - and tested regularly. Just bought a NEW pH indicator test to ensure the one I had was new enough.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Were all these fish put in at the same time???
Man, I`m sorry you lost so many, so soon.
   
Maybe if you posted your actual readings from your tests, on both tank water and tap water, we could help you more. :-? 
Did you use the buffer from the CF library????or some other.


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## Ripleybelieves (Feb 19, 2009)

All tests were within normal ranges - 0 on ammonia/nitrites - pH 7-7.5 - water hardness 6-7 - temp 76-78 - tank WELL cycled

Three different sets of fish were added over 3-1/2 weeks - the last were added from a trusted source on the day things went amuck. The fish were separate tanks when purchased and the reaction was within hours of returning home.

I have well water and I need to buffer (6.5 normal) - otherwise other than PRIME, very little goes into tank.

I am removing all gravel and all rock except for limestone and silk plants and adding an additional FILTER plus a digital hi/low thermometer plus additional air stone and trying to leave everything alone to see if whatever the issue was gones away!

The fish are eating slightly - only two fish show any enthusiasm, the others are substantially calmer ... doesn't make sense!


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

What kind of buffer are you using? I would suggest using the buffer recipe in the library and slowly adding it so you can reach proper levels without these drastic swings.

I would use liquid reagent test kits, as well.

I'm really, really concerned about that stock list...It's a nightmare and something you definitely need to work on before too much time passes.

This sounds water related, though.

Did you float the bags? Is it possible that some contaminant was introduced?


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## Ripleybelieves (Feb 19, 2009)

Using small amounts of Baking Soda only. Liquid tests are the only ones I use. Will try to find the buffer recipe -- :?

It is a nightmare and trying to get suggestions how to proceed. Doing what I noted earlier as first steps ...

Yes bags are always floated - the newer fish did not ALL die (and spme of those in since the beginning did) -- its frustrating to say the very least....


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## 55gal (Jan 19, 2009)

How long has the tank been cycled for ??
possible water problems and to much stress in your tank, is a possiblity. Any changes inside of an established tank would cause additional stress to your fish. It could be any combination of things.
To much stress is a tank is a formula for disease and possible death. 
First thing I would do is to get lab kit and test my water.
Good Luck


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## Ripleybelieves (Feb 19, 2009)

Please note I have written numerous times on the test results in earlier replies. The results continue to be the same and you will note, all within normal range.

I am well aware of what stress does to fish and water issues - I am living it. We are trying to find out WHY the issues exist.


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## Ripleybelieves (Feb 19, 2009)

sorry, the tank has been cycled for months not just weeks. I could change the charcoal and ammonia chips in the filter but I would lose some of the existing bacteria and have strong concerns about that...


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## 55gal (Jan 19, 2009)

No problem, I know you must be very concerned, I would be too. But Thoroughly cycled doesnâ€™t answer the question on how long your tank has been cycling for, also removing the gravel and rock from the tank, as you know causes unnecessary stress, or should have known, and where you only have had Cichlids for 3 1/2 weeks I should have know, that you must be an expert on the subject.

Good Luck :thumb:


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## Ripleybelieves (Feb 19, 2009)

Sorry if any misunderstanding as I did not mean to make you angry OR give you the impression I thought I was any kind of cichlid expert. I have had fish for many years and this is my cichlid debut which has failed.

The tank has been cleaned and up and running for many months ... normal readings in all tests with liquid kits. I have well water that is very acidic and has been steady at 7.8 as well until recent issues.

I have not yet removed any gravel -- that WAS the plan to replace with Coral Substate but had the problem before that occured. I did not want to overstress the fish by removing anything further but it was suggested by a cichlid friend that I remove the gravel, remove any rock EXCEPT limestone, add an additional filter and except for daily partial water changes leave it be ... hoping all will resolve itself. This makes me extremely nervous as I know (sorry) that it does cause MORE stress on the fish. I may be more stressed than the fish at this point but to date, I am not dying...


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

How are the fish doing now? Any change for the better or worse in terms of hiding or eating?

Just a few random thoughts:

I use the Seachem Rift Lake buffer. I use the same small amount in each bucket (yes I use buckets!). If I recall, I use 1/4 T per 3 gallons. My pH stays a constant 7.8 with very little variation. If you begin adding buffer to the new water going in as you do water changes, you shouldn't get really high swings of pH.

I think you are wise to hold off the substrate change until things are settled. In the long-run, the move to a crushed coral is a good idea.

As Cichlidaholic mentions, your stock list is not ideal. Mixing South American and Africans isn't recommended for a variety of reasons, and both that you have should ideally be removed and rehomed at some point.

A quarantine tank will save you much heartache in the future. Since you added fish in batches you can't be sure if someone introduced a disease and which of them might be the source. Even the most trusted source of fish can have diseases. A small 10 gallon with an HOB and small heater is what I use. I quarantine for three weeks. I use it as a hospital tank as needed. I hang the HOB on the main tank inbetween uses to keep it seeded.

Sorry about your losses . . .


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## Ripleybelieves (Feb 19, 2009)

Optomistically they appear to be somewhat better -- a bit more moving about but still unenthusiastic about eating ...

Added a new dual aerator for additional oxygen (Whisper Pure I believe was the brand). The pH has been between 7.8-8 but the coloration is not exact on liquid regent (one slightly older test kit and one new being used for comparison - it would appear both are in agreement ...).
The ammonia, nitrates etc. are zero normal range ...

Yes I have found out the mix is NOT recommended (although the store stated it was okay ... duh) but as soon as I started reading up on the correct pH (dramatically different for each species for those that didn't know)... knew they would need to be rehomed. Had a buyer but with the above issues, did not feel I could proceed until I was sure all were A-okay.

I am currently looking at a quarantine tank - what is an HOB? - is this a recommend brand filter unit for a small tank? In order to use a quarantine tank, shouldn't the filter stay in the whole time even when empty? Sorry if dumb questions...


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

Sorry! HOB = hang on the back. I use a small Aqua Clear myself, don't recall offhand which one. But keeping the HOB on the main tank when the hospital/quarantine tank is not being used, it stays seeded with bacteria. Then, when I use the hospital/QT, I just move it over and I have a cycled tank.

The other route to take is just to remove some media from the filter of your main tank and put it in the HOB you have for the hospital/Q tank when needed, but I'd prefer not to remove media if I don't have to.

I don't keep the QT tank up and filled with water when not in use so there's no need to keep the filter going. Plus a filter on an empty tank means your bacterial colony will die off from lack of "food"


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## Ripleybelieves (Feb 19, 2009)

Thank you for the very informative details on Quarantine tank and HOB filter. I have ordered a second filter (HOB) on main aquarium for ADDITIONAL filtration ... we're going the whole route to remedy this situation soonest.

Taking your advice regarding a smaller Q tank --


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## eraserhead (Sep 25, 2007)

Ripleybelieves said:


> Optomistically they appear to be somewhat better -- a bit more moving about but still unenthusiastic about eating ...
> 
> Added a new dual aerator for additional oxygen (Whisper Pure I believe was the brand). The pH has been between 7.8-8 but the coloration is not exact on liquid regent (one slightly older test kit and one new being used for comparison - it would appear both are in agreement ...).
> The ammonia, nitrates etc. are zero normal range ...
> ...


HOB means "hang-on-back". It's a standard type of filter that you see all the time. As far as pH goes, it's really pretty inconsequential what the native pH of a species is, as long as there is not an abrupt change in pH. Going from acidic water to a pH of 9 quickly is definitely bad for your fish. However, a fish that is normally kept in water at, say, a pH of 6, can be kept in water with a pH of 9 with no problem, they just have to be well acclimated. A good analogy is moving from the mountains to Mexico City. Mountain air is great, and Mexico City's air is ****, but you can totally live there. But you may experience undesirable effects at first.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

At this point, without any symptoms other than them not being enthusiastic about eating, it's hard to say what is wrong.

The reason for my question about floating the bags was a possible contaminant on the outside of the bags...I learned a lesson the hard way with this, so I now just slowly introduce tank water to the bag over a period of a half hour, and don't float at all.

I would watch the tank very carefully. Watch for reclusive behaviour, clamped fins, fin deterioration, any fish who are spitting food or refusing it completely, white stringy feces...Anything at all out of the ordinary!

For now, I would seriously consider feeding them an antiparasitic food, while they are still eating. Jungle makes a good one, but it is in pellet form so you would need to soak it in tank water for 20-30 minutes prior to feeding, and if your fish are used to flake (without me going back and reading the entire thread) you might want to mush it with your fingers a bit before offering it to them. If this is the only food you offer, they will eventually eat it, if they are still eating at all.

The tank has been through alot of stress, whatever the cause, and with cichlids, bloat can follow stress, so this would give you a bit of protection against that, while not tampering with the bacteria load in your filtration.


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