# What a pig



## delta5 (Jul 5, 2014)

This Electric yellow lab cichlid is the worst when it comes to begging for food. Luckily it ignores the tropical flakes and goes after the chunks of dried brine shrimp. I haven't added my DIY cave yet, but do you guys, gals think my cichlid will like it?

http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/diy-do-yourself/173637-diy-cave.html


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## workharddieproud (Nov 7, 2013)

Bout every where you look or read, lots of info on making hiding places. Yeah, I have those, but only my single catfish hides, the other 16 different cichlids mostly swim around all day, rarely hide. Do your self a favor and set up your tank anyway you like, MY cents worth, lots of opinions on that I'm sure.


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## delta5 (Jul 5, 2014)

workharddieproud said:


> Bout every where you look or read, lots of info on making hiding places. Yeah, I have those, but only my single catfish hides, the other 16 different cichlids mostly swim around all day, rarely hide. Do your self a favor and set up your tank anyway you like, MY cents worth, lots of opinions on that I'm sure.


Thats what this electric yellow lab does. She is always swimming all over the place. Prob tomorrow night i'm going to catch it sleeping and see if she is even sleeping in a cave. I hope she is really a she lol.


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## Burner460 (Jul 24, 2014)

I wouldn't be feeding anything high-protein like flakes or brine shrimp. You might end up with bloat in the long run. I used to feed spirulina flakes for about 2 years before i started having issues, all it takes is one or two overfeedings and a sudden aggression spike (which with mbuna can happen any time), those two elements basically form a perfect storm for bloat.

My mbuna are now on a veggie-only pellet diet once a day feedings, and they've been doing great for the past year (some of the "pigs" have even lost a little weight and are more active


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## hisplaceresort1 (Mar 10, 2014)

Burner460; I thought spirulina was a plant... an algae, isn't it? some of the better fish foods have spirulina... NLS Algae Max, which is supposed to be for a completely herbivore diet, has spirulina as the 4th or so ingredient, but definitely agree about high protein and mbunas. 
delta5 - you've been really lucky! There are tons of posts on this forum that say you'll eventually kill your mbuna feeding stuff like brine shrimp or other high protein fish food all the time... on another note; I really like the cave... wish I was creative enough to make things like that...


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

hisplaceresort1 said:


> I thought spirulina was a plant... an algae, isn't it? .


Spirulina is a type of blue green algae or Cyanobacteria. 
A lot of different ideas out there on what foods might be associated with bloat in Malawi cichlids.....but no real connection has been made . Stress and excessive aggression are thought to cause it to flare up.
No one has yet to demonstrate why a % protein would be of any real significance to rift lake cichlids.....but as long as there is that perception, any food marketed towards rift lake cichlid keepers will probably list a low % protein. But protein is listed as a minimum, meaning it can't have less then a certain amount, but could have more. I really believe that many of the brands market the very same product, just with different labels.
Even for many of the fishes that are vegetarian, the animal product that they eat with the plants, is a very significant part of their nutrition. In captivity it does not usually make sense, nor practical to feed these fish a vegetarian diet ......it goes right through the fish and produces a lot of waste. Not efficiently utilised. 
Others think if there is any problem with particular types of food causing bloat, that it is grains, flour, soy, corn ect.......but all pellets, flakes need at least some of this as a binder.
I doubt there is any problem with feeding brine shrimp as long as it doesn't become the majority of the diet . I suppose it might lead to a nutritional problem eventually, if it were fed exclusively.
In the past I've gone at least a couple 3 month or so periods feeding my fish nothing but frozen fish. I don't advocate this. But I have never had a case of bloat in any mbuna or African cichlid. All I can say for such a diet is fish grow fast...but long term I would think a more balanced diet would be better. I generally use pellets more then anything. Fish meal is the main or one of the main ingredients in all major brands because it is quality nutrition.


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## hisplaceresort1 (Mar 10, 2014)

thanks BC in SK... good info...


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

Spirulina is 57.47% protein (courtesy of Wikipedia)


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## Burner460 (Jul 24, 2014)

Spirulina is a superfood, which is very high in concentrated nutrients. Nothing wrong with feeding it to mbuna, just look out if it starts decomposing. Also, though I've yet to read a scientific study on high protein food for mbuna, what is for sure is that if you do feed animal-based food to them, it will have a negative impact on water quality which is definitely a factor in developing bloat. I think overall the key to successfully keeping mbuna disease-free is a consistent diet. Because their digestive system is developed in a way which maximizes the nutritional value of constant nibbling on small amounts of low-protein food, it stands to reason that feeding them something heavy in protein in one sitting is not the best thing for their health, as it is incompatible with their natural feeding habits and digestive systems.

All in all, I've seen major improvements in my fish's health, level of stress, and even lowered aggression, since I started feeding them low protein veggie pellets.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Burner460 said:


> what is for sure is that if you do feed animal-based food to them, it will have a negative impact on water quality


Nope. Can't agree with that at all!!
Animal products are more efficiently utilised!

Bear in mind as well that mbuna span the range of every type of eater. Carnivore, omnivore, herbivore.....and some very specialized feeders. But in captivity all do well on fish based products.


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## Burner460 (Jul 24, 2014)

It doesn't seem like you're trying to be helpful, rather just wanting to be contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. In which case, good luck with whatever it is that you got going on, but it's probably not fair to push your erroneous beliefs onto folks who genuinely don't know better and are looking for helpful advice. In my opinion and experience in keeping mostly African cichlids, telling a newbie mbuna keeper that it's ok to feed his or her fish high protein food is just plain bad advice.


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## hisplaceresort1 (Mar 10, 2014)

...and animal protein is _different _than plant based protein... (which I didn't actually know; I just googled it. the hive mind knows so much...) one article I read said that animal protein breaks down in a more acidic form... not as healthy. but that article was talking about human digestion, in all fairness.

BC in SK; looked at my label more closely for NLS AlgaeMax, "Herbivore Diet"... and whole antarctic krill and whole fish are in my 32% crude protein fish food. hmmm... sure does lend some credibility to your statement about manufacturers just sticking different labels on the same, or similar, fish food.

But, even though there may not be any rock hard solid evidence that high protein causes bloat in mbunas, there certainly seems to be tons of circumstantial evidence that it is a contributing factor... I am a newbie... only had my tank running for 7 months, so by no means am I pretending to be an authority... Had new fish with bloat and didn't know what it was, and had one die from it. When I see _any _fish in my tank with long stringy poop, I feed the whole tank shelled peas for two days and all is well again; whether that's due to a laxative effect or lower protein, obviously I cannot prove one way or the other.

Burner460; agree with you that we shouldn't be telling newbies high protein is OK; there just seems to be too much evidence to the contrary. I really hope some studies come out that show what is really going on here. Even when we're trying not to feed high protein... it's still there in the food we buy for them. I dare say probably more than enough, and that adding things like brine shrimp is asking for trouble... If the fish are fine on pellets, why would anyone even want to take the risk?

...not wanting to be argumentative with anyone either... much love and respect to all! Thank you for the ongoing education.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

hisplaceresort1 said:


> But, even though there may not be any rock hard solid evidence that high protein causes bloat in mbunas, there certainly seems to be tons of circumstantial evidence that it is a contributing factor...


What is the circumstantial evidence?
Every major brand, every type of food has been blamed for causing bloat including the much advocated NLS. Seen at least a couple threads where someone has blamed NLS for causing bloat. Easy to jump to conclusions and blame the food. The thing is, for every person claiming brand x caused their bloat there is many more who use the very same product and have never had a case of bloat.

When I mentioned going 3 month or more periods of time feeding nothing but chopped up frozen fish, I think it may not be understood how much I relied on frozen foods. Those are periods of time with out any pellets. Even when I had pellets, I often relied on frozen more then the pellets! If protein really is the cause of bloat how come my mbuna never got it. Surely if anyone should have gotten it, it should be me :lol: 
Bloat isn't very selective. Herbivores like kenyi are no more inclined to get it then omnivores like yellow labs. We like to lump mbuna as if they all eat the same thing in the wild, when there diets are just as varied as any cichlids. Mbuna include omnivores with very carnivorous tendencies, carnivores and even some piscivores. Animal protein is the problem?? Hard to square it when the omnivores and carnivores are just as easily afflicted as the herbivores!



hisplaceresort1 said:


> . I really hope some studies come out that show what is really going on here.


I don't think we are completely in the dark, as to what bloat is and it's causes. Here's a good read with at least one link to an academic study:http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?456034-Bloat-Causes-Cures-and-BIG-Myths


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## delta5 (Jul 5, 2014)

I been feeding each of my labs 3 small pellets 2 times a day along with bloodworms and they sometimes eat tropical flakes meant for other fish. No bloat.


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## hisplaceresort1 (Mar 10, 2014)

again, I do not even remotely pretent to be an expert... I'm a newbie... only been doing this 7 months.

For the sake of argument... Let's say stress is it, not diet. It seems logical, to me anyway, that a somewhat unnatural diet would at least _add _to stress. But maybe in a more serene tank, it's not _enough _stress to cause bloat...

I bet in my tank, a frozen fish diet would cause bloat... I'll admit it... My tank is not serene. I keep it as healthy as possible, but it does not seem nearly as peaceful as some others describe their mbuna tanks...

I judge how well my tank is doing by 2 simple things: 1.) are my fish's fins torn up, and 2.) do I have fish hiding behind heaters or floating toward the top. If there is only minimal fin nippage (is that a word?) on one or two fish, and no one is floating near the top, I figure I'm doing OK. But chasing goes on and off all day in my tank... and the occasional mouth-wrestling match...

Unless someone actually believes that a high animal protein diet is _actually better_ for mbuna than a low protein one, as opposed to just _not harmful_, why would you even take the chance? Especially with a newbie like me, who is still struggling with getting an established tank going...

BC in SK - the circumstantial evidence I referred to is the same circumstantial evidence you just referred to; posts on this forum blaming fish food for bloat. You do make good points, and I thank you for the link to the great post and article about bloat. (And in all fairness to you, I don't believe you actually _advocated _feeding mbunas a completely animal protein diet, only that you had to in the past, if I understood you correctly.)

In closing, I just would like to kindly remind the more experienced cichlid keepers that newbies trying to establish their tanks are learning as we go, and the wealth of information can be dizzying... Those who have kept cichlids longer can probably get away with things that we can't based on your experience and the stability of your longer-established tanks... just saying, "Better safe than sorry".

again... not trying to be argumentative with anyone, and appreciate the time that goes in to these posts... I learn so much off this forum every day, and I thank you... much love and respect to all!


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## Burner460 (Jul 24, 2014)

I've been keeping tropical fish for 10+ years, and Mbuna (not any other types of Africans, or even other Malawis such as Haps) exclusively for the past 5 years. I do not consider myself an expert by a long shot, but I have done a ton of reading, and personally experimented with a lot of different mbuna combinations, tank sizes, and yes, many different types of diets.

I have also fed my mbuna brine shrimp, as well as bloodworms (worst mistake i ever made, It ruined the water quality almost immediately, and for this reason I would not recommend bloodworms for them even as a monthly treat - they do love it, but then again, McDonald's is great once in a while, but who would eat that as a regular diet??)

Anyway, my problem is not with healthy debate, but with the fact that in spite of many other people's experience (much more extensive than my own) and opinions which have already been written in many posts before this, BC is really trying hard to be convincing of something which may work for a very small percentage of mbuna owners, even experienced ones (and I personally know a few breeders who wouldn't dream of feeding such diets to their mbuna).

I'd love to hear from some of the more experienced (the mods specifically) folks on here on this topic.


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## delta5 (Jul 5, 2014)

Burner460 said:


> I've been keeping tropical fish for 10+ years, and Mbuna (not any other types of Africans, or even other Malawis such as Haps) exclusively for the past 5 years. I do not consider myself an expert by a long shot, but I have done a ton of reading, and personally experimented with a lot of different mbuna combinations, tank sizes, and yes, many different types of diets.
> 
> I have also fed my mbuna brine shrimp, as well as bloodworms (worst mistake i ever made, It ruined the water quality almost immediately, and for this reason I would not recommend bloodworms for them even as a monthly treat - they do love it, but then again, McDonald's is great once in a while, but who would eat that as a regular diet??)
> 
> ...


When picking out cichlid pellets, what % of protein on the label will be okay in their daily diet? Is it okay to mix their pellets with tropical fish flakes? I been doing API smell cichlid pellets and aquarian tropical flakes with a little dried bloodworms.

Why does bloodworms ruin water quality? I'm asking you because you have more exp than I and I want my labs to have a healthy life.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

delta5 said:


> When picking out cichlid pellets, what % of protein on the label will be okay in their daily diet?


Well, since the person you are asking is not answering your questions, I will give my 2 cents.
you should not really concern your self very much with % protein. It's fairly meaningless for a number of reasons:
1. % protein does not say from what the protein is coming from. Fish meal, krill meal, squid meal and spirulina are the preferred protein sources because of a superior amino acid profile. When protein is consumed by a fish it is broken down into amino acids and then built back up into fish protein. If it is deficient in certain amino acids, it will be less usable, and more will become waste.
Soy, wheat, yeast, kelp meal, algae meal all can contribute to the % protein but because they are all deficient in certain amino acids it can not be utilized very efficiently and much will become waste.
2.Most fish do not utilise carbohydrate all that well. Mbuna are no different then other aquarium fish in this regard. Sure, vegetarian fish tend to be able to utilize more then carnivores, but protein and fat are still the main sources of energy. To really make sense of min. % protein and min. % fat, labels should include max.% carbohydrate----then we would really know what makes up the food. 
3. fat and protein are listed as a minimum in fish food because they are a "good" thing in the food. Minimum means they can't have less then this amount....but they could have a little more. protein has become some sort of 'dirty word' to rift lake cichlid keepers and IMO it is quite conceivable that some of the premium brands have a little more protein then the MINIMUM they list on the label.


delta5 said:


> Is it okay to mix their pellets with tropical fish flakes? I been doing API smell cichlid pellets and aquarian tropical flakes with a little dried bloodworms.


There really isn't much reason to mix pellet and flake foods. A food will loose nutritional value over time so it is preferable to open a can or bag and use it up before getting any new food.
IMO those products or OK and I would use them up before purchasing more. I will give my opinion on what I think is not so good about these foods:
API cichlid pellet has wheat as the 1st ingredient, pea protein as the 2nd, and wheat distiller's dry grain as the 5th-----too much "filler"! Shrimp meal as a third; my understanding is that shrimp meal is usually an inferior product compared to fish meal. Condensed fish protein digest as a 4th ingredient; likely a very inferior product to whole fish meal.
Aquarian tropical flakes----- very vague label. 1St ingredient is fish and fish derivatives. Since it is not listed as meal, once it is dried it probably is not really the main ingredient. "Cereal" is listed as the 2nd ingredient and may truly be the main ingredient. Cereal could mean wheat, barley, oats or rye! " Derivatives of vegetable" is the 3rd ingredient (?) What exactly that is, is anybody's guess :lol: 
Don't know much about blood worms, and have never used them. I doubt there is any need for it. I'm pretty sure brine shrimp is better nutrition so if you want something for the occasional feeding, freeze dried brine shrimp would be fine.

IMO New Life Spectrum (NLS), Dainichi or Hikari Bio-Gold would be an upgrade over what you are currently feeding.


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## delta5 (Jul 5, 2014)

I have tried other pellets from petsmart and petco. My labs won't eat any pellets I have tried but the api. they do love dried brine shrimp. The tiger barbs in the same tank love bloodworms and tropical flakes. All the fish are growing pretty fast. I do want to give NLS or Hikari a try.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

delta5 said:


> My labs won't eat any pellets I have tried but the api.


If you really want to change the food and your labs are very accustomed to a particular food, then not feeding them for 4-5 days before you try a new food, should do the trick. Try a small amount to begin with and if they refuse to eat it, then go another 4-5 days and try it again. Fish have no problem going 2 weeks with out food and will suffer no ill effects (unless of course, you do this very frequently!). Especially young growing fish, it's usually pretty easy to get them to eat any food!


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