# Free fish from Petsmart



## StillaZilla (Aug 22, 2008)

My son was at Petsmart today, and they had 5 fish in a tank labeled Jack Dempsey, but were obviously some other species. The sales girl said that they didn't know what they were, they showed up with a JD order, and they coluldn't sell them because they were not "in the system". So he asked if she could give them away, and she thought for a moment and said, "If you buy a fish, you can have one of them". So he asked if he bought two fish, could he have two for free, and she said yes. So he bought to plecos ( what he intended on buying all along), and picked up the two free fish. Then he phoned me and asked if I wanted them, he didn't know what they were.
So I said sure, and he shows up with two fish, which I am pretty sure are Herichthys carpintis. Here is the photo:










If I am wrong in the ID of this fish, please let me know.


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## zambian (Aug 20, 2007)

Certainly not Jack Dempseys - I like you have them right as Carpintis....

I also notice they've been lip locking, do you know if they're paired? Might want to keep a close eye on them.


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## cichlidtaters (Aug 31, 2009)

no you were right...Texas cichlids


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## zambian (Aug 20, 2007)

Green Texas Cichlid = Herichthys carpintis

We're saying the same thing


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## zambian (Aug 20, 2007)

StillaZilla said:


> My son was at Petsmart today, and they had 5 fish in a tank labeled Jack Dempsey, but were obviously some other species. The sales girl said that they didn't know what they were, they showed up with a JD order, and they coluldn't sell them because they were not "in the system". So he asked if she could give them away, and she thought for a moment and said, "If you buy a fish, you can have one of them". So he asked if he bought two fish, could he have two for free, and she said yes. So he bought to plecos ( what he intended on buying all along), and picked up the two free fish. Then he phoned me and asked if I wanted them, he didn't know what they were.
> So I said sure, and he shows up with two fish, which I am pretty sure are Herichthys carpintis. Here is the photo:
> 
> 
> ...


StillaZilla - What's that you silver fish you have in the background? Please tell me it's a background paper......


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## JerseyGiant88 (Jun 17, 2009)

if they r green texas u and ur son definitely got lucky because i dont even think petsamrt normally carries texas cichlids, at least the ones around me dont. the fish r lucky too as they will be spared having to live in a miserable Petsmart tank. :fish:


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128 (Mar 22, 2006)

Yep either regular Texas or Green Texas. I think you should go and get (*SAVE*) the other 3! Not to mention they are very beautiful and nice fish and are worth keeping! :thumb:


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

They are probably a hybrid between the green texas and "true" texas cichlids---most of them on the market today are. Much like the Red Devil/ Midas cichlids available in the hobby.

In any event, they are great fish...and the top one especially appears to have genes leading more toward the H. Carpinte (green texas) side. They are omnivorous vegetarians---they'll eat anything, but require a good portion of vegetable matter (broken spirulina pellets/disks work well).
They grow to about ten inches not counting the tail fin...about the same size as a Jack Dempsey. They do vary in tempermant individually, but are usually a bit more pugnacious than a Jack Dempsey.


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## StillaZilla (Aug 22, 2008)

Took the advice and went to the store and got the other 3 this morning. She marked them as "not in system, FREE" on the bag, and I walked out with them. I stirred up the water putting them in the tank, so I will wait to take picture of all 5.

LOL That is a background picture of a crocodile, sort of looks like fish scales now that you mention it.

The first pair were liplocking in the bag while they were floating in my tank, hoping to get a pair from the group, and then find a good home for the remaining three.

Pics of the 5 coming when tank settles.


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## lil mama (Nov 24, 2007)

Ya I'd say not pure Carpintis because there are no pearls on their faces. Still awesome looking fish and what a deal too! :thumb:


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## Chromedome52 (Jul 25, 2009)

The lack of markings on the nose (I assume that you are speaking of that space, as they have spangles everywhere else on the head) is a sign of immaturity, not hybridization. There is also the fact that this is a widely distributed species, quite variable in the wild, and making broad assumptions based on minor color variances is not a good idea. There are populations where the "face" markings are faint, even in adults. These are actually easier to place as juveniles than many species, and the FH type hybrids I've seen stand out from the real thing like a sore thumb. Hybrids with _H. cyanoguttatus _tend to have smaller spots, the large spots are actually a good indicator that these are awfully close to pure, if not a completely pure line. In fact, the Escondito population has juveniles that look exactly like those photos, and is currently widely available from many wholesale operations.

There is nothing in those images to suggest that these are any sort of hybrid, as everything falls well within the parameters for _H. carpinte_. They are a little thin, but they look slightly sunken in the belly, so that could probably be fixed by some good food. That could change as they mature, but if they were mine, I would call them Green Texas, probable_ H. carpinte_, based on the color and size of the spangles, base body color, and what is likely to show up at a PestMart. Then I would watch for them to mature and see if any real anomalies pop up.

And if I had seen them at my local PestMart, I would have grabbed the whole bunch even if I had to pay for them.


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## lil mama (Nov 24, 2007)

My Escondido had pearls on it's face since it was 1" :roll:


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## Chromedome52 (Jul 25, 2009)

I'm guessing yours didn't come from a wholesale breeder in Thailand, then. Individual variability is a factor that must be allowed for, as is the genetic line from which the fish descends. To simply declare a juvenile fish to be hybrid because it's missing some variable markings is - premature.


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## lil mama (Nov 24, 2007)

Ok Ok I didn't "declare" it was a hybrid I just said "I'd say" (my guess) was is wasn't pure. That's just my opinion I am allowed to have an opinion aren't I? :roll:


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## StillaZilla (Aug 22, 2008)

Here are the new pictures of all five, maybe they will help in the identification or help settle the hybrid question.

Here are all five, hard to get them to sit still for a group photo. 









Here is a photo of the face of one of them.









Here is the little one, shows more turquoise than the others, and some vertical bars.










And here is one of the larger, who had a sore at the base of its dorsal fin.


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## Tiberian (Jun 14, 2009)

Nice looking fish. Not too much longer and us Texans will rule the world!!!


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

They look like regular _Herichthys carpintis_ to me...

lil mama, Escondido are very different from regular carpintis. regulars often don't develop any color on the upper part of the face until a few inches long.


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## Chromedome52 (Jul 25, 2009)

lil mama said:


> Ok Ok I didn't "declare" it was a hybrid I just said "I'd say" (my guess) was is wasn't pure. That's just my opinion I am allowed to have an opinion aren't I? :roll:


All any of us has is our opinions. It's just that yours is wrong, and mine is right! :lol:


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## lil mama (Nov 24, 2007)

Oh I see your new to this site just started as a member July 25, 2009 that explains it all. That explains everything  :lol:


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## SiNFuLWaYs (May 18, 2009)

texas just like the one i got the other day nice looking fish

not many things now a days are pure and esp. from a lfs. unless they specialize in it or order from a reputable breeder.


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## JerseyGiant88 (Jun 17, 2009)

wait wait wait...r u saying you just got all 5 of those little suckers for FREE!?!? that might be the cichlid deal of the century. awesome looking group there.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

I still say possibly a hybrid with the "true texas." Though they do have very strong leanings to the H.Carpinte side. Especially looking at the new pictures. I base my opinion on the fact that the "hybrid" version is what is most commonly available on the market today. Petsmart likely gets their fish from one of the larger wholesale places that also supply fish to many larger chain stores. Just like the "red devil" in the market.

That being said though, maybe hybrid was the wrong term to use. There is some controversy on whether H. Carpinte is a true species, or a subspecies of the Texas cichlid. There are several geographical variants of both fish, and they can look very similar. Also, to my knowledge, the two "species" don't overlap in the wild--unlike Red Devils and Midas cichlids (though even they have been known to hybridize in the wild).

Again, in any event, you have beautiful fish. And they would have been sold as Green Texas Cichlids by any LFS; unless you purchased them from a specialist. I'd feel comfortable calling them Green Texas cichlids--but if you sell the fry, make sure to disclose how you aquired them. It wouldn't stop me from purchasing fry from you.


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## Lancerlot (Feb 22, 2006)

IF anything im going to throw a wild card out there and say ******. Na its normal looking. I think its going to be a more brownish greenish gold looking Texas.








All my texas fry at that stage looked more silver. But you never no. Most fish at Petsmart are hybrids. Only thing that arn't are :JD. and GT/Oscars I find. I'd love to see them do that to oscars. They'd be my heroe's!


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

never judge color of a fish from a picture anyways... pictures are deceiving.


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## Chromedome52 (Jul 25, 2009)

The fish are perfectly normal, 99.999% probably pure _H. carpintis _for the following reasons:

1. The large reflective spots on the body are unique to the juveniles of _carpintis _populations around Tampico, Mexico. It is possible to identify this fish from a black and white photo; color is irrelevant. The "Escondido" population comes from Laguna La Vega Escondida in that region. An almost identical population from the nearby Laguna Chairel has also been seen in the hobby, but it has not been widely distributed.

2. Many wholesale breeders in the Far East and Florida have been breeding _H. carpintis _Escondido commercially for several years now. Its popularity due to the coloration and pattern has it replacing most of the older "Texas" Cichlids at these farms. It is, in fact, becoming the most common "Texas" Cichlid offered through normal commercial channels.

3. The first generation cross of the large spot _carpintis _with any other species results in a reduction in the size of the reflective spots. Therefore the large spots on these fish indicate that they have not been hybridized, though they may not be of "show quality" lineage, or just not well cared for.

According to Juan Miguel Artigas Azas, there is an area in one river where _cyanoguttatus _and _carpintis _populations have hybridized, however, it is very far from the coastal regions where the large spot forms are found. There really is not any debate over whether the two are distinct species, though there used to be before MtDNA analysis.

Editorial commentary: If the OP had presented these fish as _H. carpintis _Escondido, no one here would have seriously questioned that as the ID. Research is important whether you have been given an ID or not, but it has to be done properly. I have also noticed a tendency to yell "Hybrid!" here every time a fish does not fit a textbook profile of a species. Believe it or not, there is a lot of variation among individuals of all species, and one must learn to recognize what are the variables of a characteristic within parameters before one can say that they are not within that range. Yes, there are a lot more hybrids these days, but that doesn't mean every aberrant individual is a hybrid. Study. Research. Learn.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

I wasn't aware that any DNA work had been done between the two species. And I also wasn't aware of any documented cases of hybridization in the wild. However, there are also population variants of both fish with very similar markings....which may or may not really mean anything---several other species also have similar markings.

Dr. H. Axelrod mentions hybridization of the two species and coloration/markings of the offspring in one of his books (can't remember which one offhand), so definitely someone in the industry has hybridized the fish at some point. Plus, if they are hybridizing in the wild....that makes things even more confusing.

It could be that the fish the OP has are a true variant of H. Carpinte....but it isn't a sure thing, especially since the two species in question are so similar.

Lancerlot's picture brings my point across that you can't be sure of any positive ID at this point; if he is calling that fish a "true Texas" cichlid....I've bred many pairs and haven't had any fry that looked so close to H. Carpinte. Mine all had very small white to pale blue spots, like their parents. But he could just have a different variant than I did...or it could really be H. Carpinte...or it could be a hybrid between the two. How would he know, if he had gotten the fish free from a chain store---because they couldn't ID them?


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## Chromedome52 (Jul 25, 2009)

Axelrod and TFH Books have more misidentified pictures than the internet. I can't give you my opinion of Herbie because this is a family forum. He also hasn't written anything in decades, just reprinted the same old same old.

Rican, et al, 2008 is a comprehensive comparison of all the major new world Cichlidae. They were the first to combine two methods of checking DNA along with more traditional morphological characters. They actually placed _H. tamasopoensis _closer to _carpintis _than _cyanoguttatus_, though they are very close.

Lancerlot used a common name that is often applied to both species. I cannot positively identify the species of his fish; it might even be a hybrid. The large spotted forms of _carpintis _are at the southern end of the range, according to Juan Miguel, who has collected and studied them. The closer they get to the range of _cyanoguttatus_, the more they resemble that species. But the OP's fish look like a southern population, and do not in any way resemble any other species of _Herichthys_.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

I wasn't holding Axelrod out to be the number one expert or anything---just to point out that he mentions the hybrids in one of his books (doesn't show any pictures of the hybrids). And since he was important in the industry at one time, and he was aware of hybrids---it's fair to assume that they are out there in the industry.

I'm not aware of the newer research, and the OP's fish very well could be just as you say...but what I am saying is that I wouldn't feel 100 percent confident that they are true H.Carpinte, because of how they were acquired.

For what it's worth, I have a nearly identical fish that I bought as a "Green Texas Cichlid" from a reputable LFS...but I still don't feel confident calling it a true H.Carpinte---because of the hybrids in the hobby issue. Just like the "Red Devil" that I purchased from the same store---though it looks like A. Labiatus, I wouldn't call it one unless I got it from a known source, such as Rapps.

In any event, it probably doesn't really matter to the OP. His fish are just as much H. Carpinte as most of the other "Green Texas Cichlids" in the industry. But I personally wouldn't call them H. Carpinte with confidence, unless someone does DNA tests on those particular fish.


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## StillaZilla (Aug 22, 2008)

I wasn't ready for this, but two of the five free green Texans I got from PetSmart have mated up and laid eggs. The fish are still cramped into a small 29gal. tank, where I was fattening them up while I was working on getting a big tank up and running. The mother is the small one in the previous pictures, she went all black like a female JD will do when mating, and is very protective of the eggs. 
I probably won't be succesful with this crop because of the inferior tank setup at the moment, but I am looking forward to having a nice mated pair in the future.


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