# Help me ID my Geophagus



## evenstarms (Jun 17, 2009)

I bought 6 geophagus yesterday at the LFS. They were labelled Geophagus Surinamensis. The workers did not know the location where they came from. I know that most of the time they are not really surinamensis so I was wanting help IDing them. They are still juveniles but let me know what you think they might be. Thanks in advance.


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## Joels fish (Nov 17, 2007)

Altifrons perhaps, maybe proximus. I have a hard time IDing them as juvies though.


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## M0oN (Dec 8, 2003)

Too young for a positive ID.


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## Morcs (Jun 1, 2009)

I agree. 
At the moment looks most like a brasiliensis?


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

definitely not a brasiliensis or a proximus.


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## mambee (Apr 13, 2003)

I have 4 of the same fish that nobody could ID. Do yours digs sleeping pits in the sand at night?

Mike


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## evenstarms (Jun 17, 2009)

I do not believe the 5 that I have dig any pits to sleep in at night but then again I haven't paid too close attention at night. I noticed that one seems to be different that the other four. The tail on his has definite spots on it while the others are more of vertical lines with a few spots. Other than that they all look exactly the same.


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## M0oN (Dec 8, 2003)

At that size I would guess Surinamensis - but all geophagus look almost identical when they're young.


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## Chromedome52 (Jul 25, 2009)

The name "surinamensis" has been applied by exporters/importers to virtually all the 'true' _Geophagus _species for about 30 years (before that they were usually lumped in with jurupari!); however, the range of that species is restricted to Surinam, Guyana, and French Guiana - and there are currently no commercial fish exports from any of those countries. There were back in the 1960s and 70s, but those countries cut off exports for the tropical fish industry in the mid 1980s as their fauna was being decimated. The species was still thought at that time to have a range that encompassed most of South America, so any of this group brought into the hobby were labeled "surinamensis". However, about that same time science started to realize that there was more than one species, particularly when they saw fish from one area brooding eggs, from another area brooding only wigglers, and another group that never did any mouth brooding at all.

Those fish are not even close to the "_Geophagus_" _brasiliensis _group. In fact, the _brasiliensis _group will likely be given their own genus within a few years.

The lateral spot is too small for _proximus _; I've seen juvies from aquarium spawnings by a couple of friends, and even the young have very large black spots.

Most recent imports have been either _G. abalios _or _G. dicrozoster_, coming out of Columbia and Venezuela. These two are mostly differentiated by the bar pattern, and yours most closely resembles _abalios_, I think. There have also been some populations close to _altifrons_ coming out of that area, and only fin development over time will make it possible to differentiate those. Of course, if they came from Brazil, then there are numerous other possibilities.

Give them 6 months to mature a bit and it might be possible to make an educated guess.


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

Chromedome52 said:


> most closely resembles abalios


Agreed.

Chromedome52... The latest revisions from Kullander limit _surinamensis_ to three rivers in Suriname, not Guyana or French Guiana. There are plenty of exports from Guyana.


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## Ronny_M (Jan 8, 2009)

I agree with the last 2 posts.

The tail pattern of stripes and a few spots sounds like an Abalios tail or maybe even Columbia/Venezuela which has also been shipped as Ablaios.

Have a look at THIS

And these:
http://eartheaters.qldaf.com/index.php?page=abalios
http://eartheaters.qldaf.com/index.php?page=abalios2


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## evenstarms (Jun 17, 2009)

Thank you for those links Ronny_M. After looking at the photos I feel fairly certain they will turn out to be the Abalios but I guess time will tell for sure. I will post pics when they are larger and see what everyone thinks then. Thanks again for everyone's responses.


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## Chromedome52 (Jul 25, 2009)

edburress,

That Kullander & Nijssen paper was only about "The Cichlids of Surinam", and was published in 1989. In 2000, Thomas Weidner published South American Eartheaters, and reports that _surinamensis _was found in the Maroni River near Maripasoula in French Guiana by him in 1999, as well as the Sinnamary system near Cayenne by others. However, you are correct in that it is not known from Guyana. I always have trouble remembering which one is which, so I tend to lump them all together - my bad.

There are private individuals, mostly hobbyists and scientists, who do collect fish in the Guianas. However, unless Guyana has re-opened to commercial export recently, they have all been closed for nearly 25 years. If it has re-opened, it is not on the scale of the 60s and 70s.


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

Indeed, you are correct regarding the Rio Maroni. After re-reading Kullander's work, in the description of _Geophagus harreri_, an endemic to the Rio Maroni, he mentions that they occur sympatrically with _surinamensis_ there. So, obviously, they must occur in French Guiana. Thank you for pointing out my error.

Ed


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## DiscusQueen (Jul 16, 2007)

*peathenster*
Hi there. Peter.. Just a quick note then back to work scraping paint in the new house in Conn... We love being here... closed the day before Thanksgiving after living with our daughter for 3 months ... yes we are still talking to each other but it did get a bit tense near the end haha.. Just wondering how my guys are doing.. Unfortunately there is no room here for my big tank so will have to downsize a bit but not til the new year.. Just wanted to touch base with you.. Talk to you soon.... Sue


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

*Chromedome52 *- There have been several exports from Guyana over the last few years, but you are right ... the scope is much much smaller than back in the day (who ever thought back then that finding _Nannacara anomala_ would be hard in this day and age at a LFS? I've only seen them once in a LFS since the begining of this decade). I think they might be on a limited basis, like Uruguay does though. Rapps and Cichlid Exchange both get their wild Guyana about the same time each year. This is just a guess though.


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