# Still can't get these Java Ferns to grow what's up?



## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

I got java fern because they are supposed to be easy to grow, but it's not looking that way. At first I thought it was because I had LED lights, so I got an Odyssea t5 dual light, but they aren't looking any better. in fact the diatoms grow better than anything. I had one rock that started to grow green algae really well, and I was hoping it would spread, but my nerites discovered it and cleaned it like a hounds tooth. So the 'brown algae' or diatoms are growing well, but I have only a few specs of green algae and the javas are skinny, nipped and dying.

What am I doing wrong? I thought you didn't need co2 for javas. I don't know what else to do.


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## brandon O (Oct 23, 2010)

maybe still to much light


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

How do you have them planted?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If they are nipped, that's the fish, not the plant. Maybe getting shocked when chomped?

I've never had luck with java fern either. Although mine DOES do better with CO2.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

DJRansome said:


> If they are nipped, that's the fish, not the plant. Maybe getting shocked when chomped?


My trophs regularly took bites out of the java fern. They became an eyesore and I got rid of them (the plants). I've had much better luck with anubias.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

vann59 said:


> I got java fern because they are supposed to be easy to grow, but it's not looking that way. At first I thought it was because I had LED lights, so I got an Odyssea t5 dual light, but they aren't looking any better. in fact the diatoms grow better than anything. I had one rock that started to grow green algae really well, and I was hoping it would spread, but my nerites discovered it and cleaned it like a hounds tooth. So the 'brown algae' or diatoms are growing well, but I have only a few specs of green algae and the javas are skinny, nipped and dying.
> 
> What am I doing wrong? I thought you didn't need co2 for javas. I don't know what else to do.


I underlined the sections I think are important for them to grow for you.

*Light*
Java fern can survive in a variety of light, I doubt thats your problem. The only thing that effects them as far as light would be the algae, if they have algae on there leaves they will die and get eaten as a result, so make sure you clean your leaves until the algae is under control.

*Position*
Java fern needs a place in the tank where they will receive good water flow across them. The Rhizome needs to be exposed and not buried in the substrate. If you are wedging them between rocks be careful to not damage the roots or Rhizome and that there is plenty of water flow getting to them there.

*Feed*
Feed them liquid co2 to keep them growing fast. You will have problems until the brown algae is under control, it will compete with plants in the tank for nutrients, this is more the reason why people have said more light to get rid of the brown algae. liquid co2 will help remove the brown algae also. NOTE: in saying that they will survive without co2 just fine as long as there is enough water flow and nitrates.

*Propagation*
If you have leaves (even ones that have bites out of them) falling off, float them on the surface of the water and you will have new java fern growing on the leaf in a month or so. Also the rhizome will divide sometimes into 2 plants though the leaf method is a much better and yields more plants.

Java fern is a very hard plant to kill, it can be a hard plant to keep looking nice. Even a seemingly dead leaf can spawn new plants. If they are in fact dying then maybe keeping your water clean for your cichlids is taking too much nutrients out of the water that the plant needs.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Excellent advice by Nodalizer :thumb:

The only thing I'd like to add is that algae benefit from light 24x7. Plants can use light only for about 8h per day. As a result, about 8h of sufficient light will help the plants out-compete the algae, while longer lighting periods will favor the algae. And as Nodalizer pointed out, leaves covered with algae are really bad for plants, because they prevent them from taking up light.

Oh, one more thing, there is such a thing as a tank that's too clean for plants. If you don't supplement CO2, the main CO2 source will be debris that decays into CO2. Your tank shouldn't look like a swamp, but some people's tanks look almost sterile with spotless white gravel and not a crumb of dirt. In such a tank you won't have good plant growth.


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## Mr.Dempsey (Jan 4, 2012)

Would this still be the same if you had a ''soil'' under the sand?


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

The soil won't get a lot of nutrients out of the water from under the sand. Would need root tabs or something similar.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Also a true soil (versus a plant substrate like Flourite) can be a problem with cichlids because they dig. It won't stay neatly under the top layer.

For the occasional plant that likes a richer substrate, you can submerge pots of plant substrate like Flourite in the sand. I have also sewn "pillows" of polyester crib quilt batting to enclose Flourite and the roots of the plant. This works well for me with vallisneria, crypts and swords.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

One thing I don;t think I pointed out well enough, with mbuna and java fern wedged in rocks. The mbuna like to pull the java fern out of where you put it. A common thought is to bury it deeper, this is not a good idea, as the Rhizome needs the water flow across it just as much as the leaves. And any new leaves will not fair well deep inside the rock work.


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

Thank you all for the great tips. I do keep the tank pretty clean, so that may be part of it. I have the ferns attached by small rubber bands to smooth stones about the size of large eggs. The roots are exposed but have never attached to the stones. I just today cleaned the brown algae some from the leaves though, since it was getting pretty bad. I know the fish are the reason they're nipped, but I was hoping they would grow faster than they get eaten.

So perhaps if I clean the leaves well, and use some co2 for a while maybe the brown algae (diatoms) will die off and the plants will do better? And also I will shorten the light use time.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

vann59 said:


> I know the fish are the reason they're nipped, but I was hoping they would grow faster than they get eaten..


Java fern is a slow growing plant. The best you can hope for is if you remove the larger (more chewed?) leaves, you will get new ones faster. But faster in terms of a slow-growing plant.



vann59 said:


> So perhaps if I clean the leaves well, and use some co2 for a while maybe the brown algae (diatoms) will die off and the plants will do better? And also I will shorten the light use time.


Clean the leaves frequently. Algae of any color will harm the leaves. Make sure you always have at least 10ppm of nitrate and some phosphate in your water.

Regarding using CO2 for a while...I'd either do it regularly or not start. Plants are like fish...once you find something that works, consistency is key. When I have stopped CO2 in the past, I had problems.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Using the liquid CO2 most the bottles day daily, but i use mine weekly with a water change. Prob the most important thing is keeping them in a high flow area of the tank. And the leaves are normally detached before the fish start on them, just pull them off and let them float on the surface.


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

I have also been using StressZyme from API to help keep the substrate cleaner and prevent old tank syndrome. Perhaps this is counter productive to growing the plants?


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

StressZyme is a dechlorinator. Any other claims it has are minimal.

What other physical signs do your java have? Are the leaves a health green other then the holes? are they turning transparent at the tips? Is there a good number of roots and is the plant in a high current part of the tank out of the substrate?

I doubt its a nutrient problem myself. Java fern is a slow growing plant and unless you have a mass of other plants its not going to be staved for nutrients. It could be a co2 problem, if everything else looks ok, do you have a bubbler in the tank?

A picture of the plant in your tank so we can see its position and what it looks like would be helpful.


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

The color is a good shade of green, but the edges are so dead or chewed they look like a lace. Some leaves are down to the stems. The roots are brown and there seems to be plenty of them. I have about ten meduim/small ferns, with no other plants, in this 55 G tank, no bubbler and a turnover rate of 700 GPH. All the plants are out in the open and should be getting enough circulation.

The diatom growth has been getting pretty heavy, but I see now the green algae is trying to make a comeback. I do like the green algae and want to green up the color scheme, with both algae and ferns.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Do the edges look almost transparent before they look chewed ?


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

Nodalizer said:


> Do the edges look almost transparent before they look chewed ?


Not really, just dark and chewed.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

I would just remove the leaves and float them on the top of the tank or tie them to a piece of driftwood.

Chances are they are dead. What happens is the tips of the leaves create new plants, eventually these plants break away leaving the chewed parts you see. I'd say there are plant parts floating around somewhere or lodged under your rocks.

If not then the leaf just died, sounds like you plant is healthy, if you keep getting this problem with young leaves then they might benefit from some potassium.


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