# -White Knight Ahli-



## Koddra (Feb 23, 2013)

Hey Everyone~
I have recently added a male White Knight Ahli to my African cichlid community! I work at a local petstore, and had my eye on him for ages. With my manager noticing my interest, he offered him up for a more affordable price (We were asking $110) My store and many others I visited, claimed to have never seen this fish in person. In that regard, my manager also gave me 3 female Ahli- In hopes that I would breed them. Apparently where I'm from, White Knights are simply rare within the Hobby. *** been searching through stores and online websites and have found a few online- but with extreme costs.. *** been putting more focus on finding a female at a store. But in the meantime, I might as well attempt to breed Ku-Jo with the Ahli's I received. I'm only 16, but *** been interested and involved in this hobby for years. However, I always want as much advise as I can possibly get- Therefore I do have a couple questions~

:fish: I adore him as an ornamental fish in my main aquarium, and wanted to simply add the females to the community. Right now, they are in a separate tank being quarantined and conditioned (because they are rather slim and beat up) But when I feel that they are all ready, I want to have them as new additions. Is it alright to do so? I understand it would be harder to collect the fry, but if I keep a close eye on each of them, would it be alright? The only other tanks I have is a 29G Tanganyikan tank, 10G tropical community, and another 10G that serves as a Hospital/Nursery/Quarantine/Separation tank. 
I didn't intend on breeding him until my manager showed great interest in having me do so. And I don't want to let him down, but I also don't have the money/space for another large tank. Any tips or suggestions on breeding are greatly appreciated!I will continue to post as questions arise with regards to my White Knight Ahli thanks~


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

How big is your tank and what is the stocklist?


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

opcorn:


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## Koddra (Feb 23, 2013)

Metricliman- 75G
Peacocks~
1-BlueFire 
2-Maleri Sunshine
3-Super Red
1-Lemon Jake
Sciaenochromis~
1- White Knight Ahli
1- Electric Blue Hap (Fryeri) 
Pseudotropheus~ (All rather small, if they prove to be an issue in the future, I will make replacements) But right now there are absolutely no issues)


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Understanding that the White Knight is actually a fryeri (hybrid?), so you are going to have competition from the existing male fryeri. Also breeding a white knight to regular females is not necessarily going to yield white knights, and the regular fry you'll want to destroy.


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## Koddra (Feb 23, 2013)

It posted before I finished for some odd reason- 75G
Peacocks~(all male)
1-BlueFire 
2-Maleri Sunshine
3-Super Red
1-Lemon Jake
Sciaenochromis~ (They get along perfectly, but I may remove the Electric Blue for breeding)
1- White Knight Ahli
1- Electric Blue Hap (Fryeri) 
Pseudotropheus~ (All rather small, if they prove to be an issue in the future, I will make replacements) (But right now there are absolutely no issues) 
3-Kenyi (Female)
6-Metriclima Msobo (Zebra) (Female)
3-Metriaclima Estherae (Super Red Zebra)
Synodontis- 
1-Angelicus
6-Multipunctatus


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## Koddra (Feb 23, 2013)

Fogelhund-
My manager did say that 2 things could happen. Either I'll get a % of the fry to be White Knight, or I'll end up with split-gene. Which he said he would take to raise himself at the shop.


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

Are you sure they are White Knights? If they have red eyes they are regular albinos.


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## Koddra (Feb 23, 2013)

Yes he's a White Knight. He lacks the red eye completely and looks exactly like other specimens of White Knight.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

These split gene fish of hybrid albinos/white genetic fish shouldn't be distributed IMO. They end up getting distributed, with the result being the local supply of the regular fish is ruined.


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## Koddra (Feb 23, 2013)

Understood- yet they simply wished to raise a group, than breed them to obtain White Knight fry. However this is beside the point, as I was just looking for advise on breeding them~


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## infamous (Mar 28, 2012)

If you mix a rotweiller and a Doberman...you don't get a rotweiller you get a mutt. (Just saying)


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## austings (May 12, 2012)

Koddra said:


> Understood- yet they simply wished to raise a group, than breed them to obtain White Knight fry. However this is beside the point, as I was just looking for advise on breeding them~


Besides the point or not. This hobby is being ruined by hybrids. Many of us cannot go to the LFS and buy pure fish. Everything I have bought from my LFS has been horrible quality, because they havent been bred purely.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

austings said:


> Koddra said:
> 
> 
> > Understood- yet they simply wished to raise a group, than breed them to obtain White Knight fry. However this is beside the point, as I was just looking for advise on breeding them~
> ...


I will second that.....

However I will note that most of these fish in my LFS's that are coming in this way are from fish farms and distributors with two I can think of that are the main culprits of selling hybrids and hormoned fish.


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## Koddra (Feb 23, 2013)

I find this rather pointless to discuss. Hybrids are part of the hobby, period. If that bothers you, than order online or go diving in Lake Malawi yourself. I'm looking for constructive advise, not aimless bashing on Hybrids. I joined this forum for helpful thoughts, ideas, and assistance. If your going to simply express your innermost opinions about hybrids, your words aren't wanted. If your rather agitated with them, than this hobby should prove difficult for you. My fish are always high quality; there is no pointing fingers at hybrids for "ruining the hobby." That's rather rash and false, because you can't stereotype the entire hobby based on your personal experiences.


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

Koddra said:


> I find this rather pointless to discuss. Hybrids are part of the hobby, period. If that bothers you, than order online or go diving in Lake Malawi yourself. I'm looking for constructive advise, not aimless bashing on Hybrids. I joined this forum for helpful thoughts, ideas, and assistance. If your going to simply express your innermost opinions about hybrids, your words aren't wanted. If your rather agitated with them, than this hobby should prove difficult for you. My fish are always high quality; there is no pointing fingers at hybrids for "ruining the hobby." That's rather rash and false, because you can't stereotype the entire hobby based on your personal experiences.


If your fish are so "high quality" then why should you be selling fish to stores? You could make some nice money selling "high quality" fish to other hobbyists. The fact that hybrids are part of the hobby is the reason people don't want _more_ hybrids in the hobby.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

OK, without adding my opinion, message sent/received regarding hybrids. Koddra your question was can you spawn the White Knight if you add female fryeri to a tank with all-male peacocks and two fryeri males, one "regular" and one White Knight.

I would say the adult females will not be safe in the tank and also if they hold fry you will not know who the father is among the peacocks and both fryeri. I'd put the White Knight in a separate 55G with the females if you want him to spawn with them.


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## nmcichlid-aholic (Mar 23, 2011)

Koddra said:


> I find this rather pointless to discuss. Hybrids are part of the hobby, period. If that bothers you, than order online or go diving in Lake Malawi yourself. I'm looking for constructive advise, not aimless bashing on Hybrids. I joined this forum for helpful thoughts, ideas, and assistance. If your going to simply express your innermost opinions about hybrids, your words aren't wanted. If your rather agitated with them, than this hobby should prove difficult for you. My fish are always high quality; there is no pointing fingers at hybrids for "ruining the hobby." That's rather rash and false, because you can't stereotype the entire hobby based on your personal experiences.


I kind of agree with this - I mean how many hybrids were created when the original White Knight Ahlis were produced? Or the Dragonsblood peacocks that 95% of hobbyists have bought (or considered buying) at one point? Or all of the other hybrid/linebred/man-made species out there that fetch high dollars when offered for sale? Sure, it would be great if every fish bought and sold were pure, but the simple fact is that there are too many people in the hobby that want that unique fish that isn't found in the lake, and whether they buy them or breed them themselves, the demand is there, so the fish will be, too.

Let's try to accept that fact, and as Koddra suggests, if you don't want them, don't buy them (or buy from people that sell them). You'll be hard pressed, though, to find even the most well regarded online retailers that don't have at least one or 2 of these novelty breeds on their for sale list - another example of demand influencing supply.


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## Mr Chromedome (Feb 12, 2013)

It is not the "novelty breed" white knight strain itself that concerns people. It is the "normal looking" hybrid young that will result from crossing normal fryeri females with him. Sooner or later, those or their descendants will be sold as "Electric Blue", and buyers will not know that they are the result of crossing a normal fish with an abnormal line.

Of course, considering that most of the "fryeri" in the hobby are already heavily hybridized, the point may be moot, and the argument is purely a matter of ethics.


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## nmcichlid-aholic (Mar 23, 2011)

Mr Chromedome said:


> It is not the "novelty breed" white knight strain itself that concerns people. It is the "normal looking" hybrid young that will result from crossing normal fryeri females with him.


This is exactly what I mean - you gotta take the good with the bad. Sure, people don't mind the pretty white knight ahli, but where do they think they come from? There are going to be less desirable hybrid offspring that result from the breeding of these "novelty species" (there's no way around it - it's genetics), and to expect that every one of the undesirable hybrids will be destroyed before making it into somebody's tank is just naive. If you don't want the "normal looking" hybrids, then you have to do without the "novelty species", and there are too many people out there that just won't do that. The demand for the fancy, unique looking man-made strains has assured the there will always be an abundance of not-so-fancy or unique looking hybrids out there, too. Sad, but true.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Let's return the thread to the original topic which is whether OP will get fry from the white knight and the new female if he just adds the females to the existing tank. Thanks!


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## nmcichlid-aholic (Mar 23, 2011)

DJRansome said:


> Let's return the thread to the original topic which is whether OP will get fry from the white knight and the new female if he just adds the females to the existing tank. Thanks!


I agree with the theory that he'll get fry from the females, but there's no way to assure the father is the white knight. You have to separate them if you want to be 100% certain.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

As far as advise on breeding them. Put them in a tank where the male can be dominant or near dominant, with no other male that will likely spawn with the females, good clean water, regular water changes, good food, and they should breed.


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## Koddra (Feb 23, 2013)

Thanks for the advise-I will do so. I'm planning on setting up a new tank for him, and will actually continue to search for female white knight.


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## jcabage (May 29, 2012)

I've seen some white knight fry available on a vendor website not long ago. I'll PM you!


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

I too saw some white knights the other day on one of the site sponsors and they werent too badly priced.


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## sniceley (May 25, 2010)

I am personally tired of people not understanding what a white knight hap ahli is and automatically saying it is a hybrid. It is a naturally occurring leucistic form of S. fryeri. Leucism is a mutation where the pigment bodies of the epidermis do not form therefore the skin can not produce pigments, therefore white skin. The gene that causes pigment bodies in eyes is a differnent gene, therefore normal colored eyes. The blue color for males still shows through because it is not a pigment, it is a reflective protein. They are not the same as the albino version which has red eyes and a red anal fin, because they are only deficient in the dark pigment due to being amelanistic.

Since there are no other leucistic versions of any hap or peacock then what is the hybrid from?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

sniceley said:


> Since there are no other leucistic versions of any hap or peacock then what is the hybrid from?


I've seen leucistic versions of OB Peacocks.


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## sniceley (May 25, 2010)

If it was leucistic then how did you know it was an OB? There are a number of basic mutations for color.

Amelanistic- no brown or black pigments (albino)
Melanistic- overproduction of melanin generally causing black fish
Axanthic- no yellow pigment 
Xanthic- overabundance of yellow pigment
Anerythristic- no red pigment
Erythristic-overabundance of red pigment
Hypo- less than normal amount of pigment
Hyper- greater than normal amount of pigment
Leucistic- white with normally pigmented eyes, only colors which can show are iredescent colors due to reflective proteins (blue phase freshwater angels, bettas, white knight males, all examples)

If it was a leucistic OB then it should be solid white with pigmented eyes and patches of blue irredescence but not the underlying melanin. It would look like a blotchy white knight.


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## jcabage (May 29, 2012)

sniceley said:


> It is a naturally occurring leucistic form of S. fryeri.


Do you have a source for this information?



sniceley said:


> Since there are no other leucistic versions of any hap or peacock then what is the hybrid from?


It seems that if the mutation is such as you have described in great detail, there would be a similar chance for any other hap or peacock to possess the abnormality. Or at least it doesn't seem impossible, per science.

Any fish with such an outstandingly obscure condition that is available on the regular in mass would raise a bit of a question in my book. At least when calling it a natural fish :?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

sniceley said:


> If it was leucistic then how did you know it was an OB? There are a number of basic mutations for color.
> 
> If it was a leucistic OB then it should be solid white with pigmented eyes and patches of blue irredescence but not the underlying melanin. It would look like a blotchy white knight.


It came from OB parents.


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## BigTuck STL (Apr 28, 2012)

There is a guy here in st. Louis mo that has some nice white knight ahli. If your interested and want to send me a pm with an email address or number where I can text you. I would be willing to help you.


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