# Who was the Hobbyist? Continuous Water Change System



## CThompson (Aug 13, 2003)

Auto (continuous) Water Changes,

Some time back there was a fellow hobbyist on the Tropheus and Petrochromis board that had a Tropheus tank set up that allowed a permanent water supply to drip in and go out again to the drain. He may be still here, but IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve forgotten who this is and their avatar. I remember that they were a moderator for a bit. His tank, if I remember correctly went around a corner, constructed in an Ã¢â‚¬Å"LÃ¢â‚¬Â


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## Aura (Oct 29, 2005)

I remember that tank and after a little searching, think I found it, if this is the same one you are referring too. FeatherfinFan's tank? http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_acrylic_aquarium.php . . . http://www.cichlid-forum.com/tanks/index.php?mode=owner&u=871


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## CThompson (Aug 13, 2003)

Aura said:


> I remember that tank and after a little searching, think I found it, if this is the same one you are referring too. FeatherfinFan's tank? http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_acrylic_aquarium.php . . . http://www.cichlid-forum.com/tanks/index.php?mode=owner&u=871


You're a legend Aura, that's the tank and I remember the handle now too. Thank you for your help.

Craig


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## Cyclesafety (Feb 8, 2010)

http://www.fmueller.com/home/aquaristic ... wc-system/


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## CThompson (Aug 13, 2003)

Cyclesafety,

thanks for the link, I read through it with interest.

My water supply has chloramines added, though I think there are domestic in-line filter systems much like was shown in the article, that can deal with that here.

My major issue is how to add salts and KH generator as required to maintain a correct stable pH? The article did not discuss this.

My research so far has indicated, a header tank, pH and conductivity probes, concentrated salt and KH slurries added by peristaltic pumps...which to me is kind of switching one labour of water changes to another of monitoring equipment.

I had originally thought to just have two 1000 litre drums, plumbed in line with the system, with taps to control one container connected at a time, and simply change taps to cause water to flow through one tub or another, with the spare drained and filled with salts and KH added. The downside is space required for two 1000 litre containers. Perhaps I should think of something smaller - 500 litres would still be plenty.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

With a constant flow through water system you should not experience pH fluctuations as the constant influx of new water will replenish the KH faster than biological processes in the tank can erode it.

Altering PH or GH for a different reason is another thing. But I don't see a need to attempt to manipulate KH (on a continuous flow system) in an effort to maintain stable pH. The "continuous flow" will do that for you.


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## CThompson (Aug 13, 2003)

Kmuda,

excellent point, one I hadn't considered regarding not needing to maintain KH for a stable pH.

What comment would you have if I said the tap KH reading = zero?

The water is alkaline, not sure of exact reading, but salts will be needed to raise it as it is not African hardness.

Appreciate your input.

Craig


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

Alkaline water with a KH of zero. 

......

I would love to know what your water company is doing to your water. Have you ever performed a bucket test? It may be the natural pH of your water is much lower than you think. As an example, my water comes out of the tap above 8. Allowed to sit overnight, it declines to a perfect neutral. The cause is my tap water, while in the pipe, is void CO2. Once released from the pipes, it absorbs CO2 from the atmosphere and the pH drops.

To determine if the same circumstance applies to your tap water, fill a bucket with water, test the pH, then drop in an airstone, allow to sit overnight, and restest the pH. You may be suprised at the result.....

What is the GH of your water? That combined with the "natural pH" (revealed by the bucket test) will dictate how to proceed.


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## Cyclesafety (Feb 8, 2010)

Another point to consider is whether fighting the water will actually make a difference. Sure, duplicating lake chemistry would be great, but if it really doesn't matter to the fish.....


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## CThompson (Aug 13, 2003)

You guys are giving some great thought provoking information.

I have tested the tap water, but not for some time. It tested at that time as alkaline and the KH was zero.

I was initially alerted to the low KH by a lfs, who told me they were getting multiple people in every day with the same issue (pH crashes). After I was told I tested and confirmed.

So have just accepted alkaline water with zero KH.

The pH, naturally being filtered through sandstone in the catchment areas here would be acidic, and it is my understanding the the water board do something to the water to raise the pH as acidic water is not good for their pipes.

I had a full-on planted aquarium years ago, so am very aware of the relationship between CO2 and ph, but your explanation of alkaline tap water reabsorbing CO2 from the air and the pH dropping had never occurred to me as a possibility.

I had always wondered how the water board raise the water's pH and thought about the expense of this exercise. Now you make me wonder if they just removed the CO2 somehow (is that possible?).

Now you've gone and made more work for me and I've got to go and test the tap water again.

My original idea for making water changes easier;



> I had originally thought to just have two 1000 litre drums, plumbed in line with the system, with taps to control one container connected at a time, and simply change taps to cause water to flow through one tub or another, with the spare drained and filled with salts and KH added. The downside is space required for two 1000 litre containers. Perhaps I should think of something smaller - 500 litres would still be plenty.


Is looking better and better :lol:


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

CThompson said:


> I had always wondered how the water board raise the water's pH and thought about the expense of this exercise. Now you make me wonder if they just removed the CO2 somehow (is that possible?).


Not only is it possible, it's a common practice in areas with acidic water.


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## AaronAllan (Jan 8, 2010)

unless you have the local water for it I think it'd be a waste, I would just make water changes easier. *** seen a local pet store here that has a constant flow of water flowwing through 1000 tanks, they get their water from a local hotsprings that has water already heated and its naturally hard and cholorine free. I think they say that the water changes 20 times a day. its a great setup you just have to be in the right area. but good luck


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## tony111 (Jan 25, 2009)

I use an automatic water changing system. Its much as you describe although rather than a continuos drip I use a solenoid valve on a timer to switch the supply on and off. The water comes via RO tubing from the mains through the solenoid valve, through a carbon block and into the tank for 3 mins every six hours. It changes about 15% of tank volume daily. The solenoid is an extra expense but is very reliable and gives you accurate and easy control of the amount of water you are changing. Want to do an extra water change for any reason? Just hit the "on" button for a bit.

The second difference with my set up is that the new water doesn't go directly into the tank. Instead it goes into a 30g reservoir tank in the attic directly above the tank in my sitting room (I live on a top floor flat). When the solenoid switches on, water overflows from the reservoir to the tank below which in turn overflows to waste. The advantage of a reservoir is that it allows you adjust temp and chemistry before the water reaches your tank. If you've got a space to put one it may be the solution you're looking for.

All best Tony


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## CThompson (Aug 13, 2003)

tony111 said:


> I use an automatic water changing system. Its much as you describe although rather than a continuos drip I use a solenoid valve on a timer to switch the supply on and off. The water comes via RO tubing from the mains through the solenoid valve, through a carbon block and into the tank for 3 mins every six hours. It changes about 15% of tank volume daily. The solenoid is an extra expense but is very reliable and gives you accurate and easy control of the amount of water you are changing. Want to do an extra water change for any reason? Just hit the "on" button for a bit.
> 
> The second difference with my set up is that the new water doesn't go directly into the tank. Instead it goes into a 30g reservoir tank in the attic directly above the tank in my sitting room (I live on a top floor flat). When the solenoid switches on, water overflows from the reservoir to the tank below which in turn overflows to waste. The advantage of a reservoir is that it allows you adjust temp and chemistry before the water reaches your tank. If you've got a space to put one it may be the solution you're looking for.
> 
> All best Tony


Lovely reply Tony. Can you please explain how you have, I assume, automated, the chemistry adjustment in the reservoir.

I see this as the big sticking point, and I hope you use a simple system that works.

Craig


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## tony111 (Jan 25, 2009)

I don't adjust the chemistry. London water is pretty hard so this combined with some dolomite chips in my filter gives me a steady ph at about 8.1.

But if you were to fill the reservoir with lumps of coral, dolomite, oyster shells or some other suitable buffering agent, I would expect you would have a steady supply of well buffered water. A power head or air pump to move the water about would help. Obviously the bigger the reservoir the more effective this would be as the water would be in there for longer.

I'm not a fan of additives as I find they tend to have a short lived effect, pushing the ph up only for it to revert quickly to its previous value. If you're locked into the idea of an automated additive system you could use dosing pumps (expensive) for liquid additives or perhaps an automatic food feeder of some sort to dump powder like baking soda into the reservoir once or twice a day. I would suggest though that the more complexity you introduce the less consistent the results are likely to be.

Looking at sites like this suggests that the consensus amongst experienced tropheus keepers is that stability is much more important than absolute ph value. I would expect a reservoir full of some buffering material would give you the water parameters you need. Also it would be low/no maintenance and be consistent. Tony


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## CThompson (Aug 13, 2003)

Maybe if I fed the new water across a drip tray sitting on a header tank, which was filled with limestone sand.

The header tank could have a stand pipe in it that would allow water dwell time before going into the system.


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## tony111 (Jan 25, 2009)

Why not bung your limestone in the reservoir?

Another thought is that you could possibly use a marine calcium reactor.

But this would be a very tecno heavy approach. For me the joy of a fresh water set up is being able to do without all that ****. Apart from the solenoid valve, a timer and a carbon pre filter, all my water change work is done by gravity. The system has been running continuously for six years with no maintenance whatsoever apart from occasionally changing the carbon cartridge.

One advantage of a reservoir (like a sump) is that you can add or remove equipment without disturbing your tank. I would try it with just the passive buffering system, see what the water parameters settle at in your tank - it will take a few weeks to stabilise completely - then see what else, if anything, you want to do. Tony


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## tony111 (Jan 25, 2009)

Can't believe the site censored me! I only said [email protected]!


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## CThompson (Aug 13, 2003)

Brad, aka featherfinFan contacted me. I was surprised to learn he no longer keeps fish 

His system was not one that needed to worry about water parameters as it was good from the tap.

It was;



> My water changer was just basically hard tap water running thru a carbon block filter and controlled by a stop valve that I calibrated to drip enough to change out a certain % daily. I'm not sure of that figure offhand but it was around 10% daily if my memory serves. Luckily I didn't have to add anything else along w/ the waterchanges. I did add EpsomSalts every few days, but that was manually.


Thanks to Brad for taking the time to contact me :thumb:



> But this would be a very tecno heavy approach. For me the joy of a fresh water set up is being able to do without all that #%$&. Apart from the solenoid valve, a timer and a carbon pre filter, all my water change work is done by gravity.


I agree with tecno comment, and when the time comes think I will set up with a solenoid, a timer, in line filter feeding to a header tank filled with limestone sand and or coral sand, with a stand pipe to allow some dwell time in the header tank. This will feed into the sump.


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## tony111 (Jan 25, 2009)

Sounds good. You've probably already thought about it but, make sure your sump is high enough to give sufficient drop to ensure good flow from the overflow to your drain. Good luck Tony


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## CThompson (Aug 13, 2003)

Good point Tony111, I'd think with the slow flows that will exist, that any drop will do the job. Do you think?


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## tony111 (Jan 25, 2009)

Sorry for slow reply, I've been out of the fish chat loop lately.

I don't know what a minimum drop would be, just that too little might give rise to air lock or silting issues. Are you up and running now? Would love to know how its turned out.

I recently added one of these to the supply side on my set up.

http://www.pozzani.co.uk/water-treatmen ... _info.html

Nitrates in my tap water are at 30/40 ppm and, even with the hefty water change rate, readings in the tank were high. This cartridge sucks most of it up but, at the moment, I've no idea what the renewal time will be.

I also spotted this and wondered if it might be of interest to you given your need to harden the supply side.

http://www.pozzani.co.uk/water-treatmen ... _info.html

All best Tony


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## CThompson (Aug 13, 2003)

Tony, the link you added for the RM600 - 10" Remineralisation / Alkaline Water Filter is fantastic. I'm not surprised there is such a thing but didn't know they are available. Hope they can be gotten here when the time comes.

I haven't even started yet as the fish work will happen after the house extensions, which are STILL pending council approval...

My biggest concern was the ability of a continuous automatic water change system's ability to maintain a sufficiently high pH with my tap water. The remineralisation cartridge will put my mind at rest on that score, so I will pretty much have to do the new tanks this way now as I'm confident it will work. It'll save me heaps of maintenance time :dancing:

Wonder if I can work out a way to make the filtering easier :roll: A fast flush might carry debris away, but not out the overflow to drain...


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