# A poll on German Blue Rams rapid breathing and mortality



## TitoTee

*Do your Rams Breath Rapidly*​
Yes675.00%No225.00%


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## TitoTee

Hi I would like to gather some data on German Blue Rams. This includes wilds, Golds, Electric Blues and the normal blue known as German Blue Ram. This excludes Bolivian Rams. Just Mikrogeophagus ramirezi.

By comments - I would like to know if your Rams were breathing rapidly when you purchased them and did they remain breathing rapidly in your aquarium. Also, did they die off soon after being placed in the aquarium? Any all comments relating to this subject are welcomed.

Please make sure to take the Poll.

Thanks!


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## TitoTee

I will start with my experience.

Yes my Rams breathe rapidly. I have some domestic and some wilds. I have noticed that they all breathe rapidly but the ones that have died were breathing with their gills really hard. I will be checking my water parameters later although I can tell you that my tank has been running for 4 years, nevertheless I will check parameters. Water changes are partial every week about 40 to 50 percent. Some of them have died off. The wilds have not died off and so it seems that only the German Blue strains are dying off. Needless to say - they are probably farm raised in Asia. I have purchased some from Petco, some from a local distributor of Discus and various other fish and some from a LFS near my home.

Note: I consider myself a seasoned hobbyist, having kept community, African, SA, CA, Salt Water and various oddballs. My husbandry I would consider to be seasoned. I hope to have the thread go in more of the direction of experiences with getting the fish and not good intentioned folk trying to tell someone how to keep fish or the mistakes they've made. I am more interested in the phenomena of the fish breathing rapidly and dying off as well as the source of the fish.


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## halffrozen

I had bought a pair of GBR's about.. two weeks ago now? I noticed the female was breathing heavily when she was in the plastic bag from the store, I let them sit in the tank for a bit to get the temp adjustment, then filled my 1gal bowl with half tank water, and emptied the fish and water into the bowl. She still continued to breathe heavy, thought she will cool down when I put he in a nice big tank, about 2-3 days later I come home to find her dead. 

Her gills were swollen looking when she was alive, and quite red/pinkish...

Poor girl. 

Water quality:
PH - 7.2
AM - 0ppm
NO2 - 0ppm
NO3 - 20ish ppm


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## TeteRouge

Yes, they almost pant-and one especially doesn't look well at the moment  , had it for about 6 weeks. It has always seemed a little frail. The other looks good, great appetite and has grown quite a bit, but it also breathes quickly, almost looks like its chewing. Much faster than my BRs. Burning themselves out..? Or insuffcient gills..? Not sure if they were breathing rapidly at the LFS, and of course attributed stress during transfer for anything after. Not sure when I noticed, I seem to more focus on appetite...


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## TitoTee

Thanks for the replies and don't forget to Poll!


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## BelieveInBlue

Mine are always breathing fast, although there's a difference between breathing quickly and gasping for air. If they're opening and closing their mouths really quickly and drawing in water quickly, then it should be pretty normal, since warmer water means less oxygen. But if they seem like they're struggling to get oxygen, or if the gills are always open, then there may be something wrong with the water.


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## TitoTee

I see that there are more replies than votes.

Plesee please vote on the Poll thanks. Then it becomes scientific or at least Emperical.


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## mlancaster

Hi *TitoTee*,

When I purchased my german ram from the store it was healthy. He lived in my grow out tank for 6 mothns healthy. Moved him to a display tank where he lived in good health for 6 months. Moved him back to the orginal tank with out doing an acclimation process and he went into shock breathing rapidly and died within a few days.

For what it is worth that is my experince with my one and only german ram.

Thanks,
Matt


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## TitoTee

mlancaster said:


> Hi *TitoTee*,
> 
> When I purchased my german ram from the store it was healthy. He lived in my grow out tank for 6 mothns healthy. Moved him to a display tank where he lived in good health for 6 months. Moved him back to the orginal tank with out doing an acclimation process and he went into shock breathing rapidly and died within a few days.
> 
> For what it is worth that is my experince with my one and only german ram.
> 
> Thanks,
> Matt


That's a good observation.

Can't wait to see what this poll looks like 60 days from now!


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## TitoTee

Just took readings this evening:

Water quality: 
PH - 6.8 
AM - 0ppm 
NO2 - 0ppm 
NO3 - 4 ppm

This comes as no surprise to me. My tap is actually 7.0 but the driftwood in the tank softens the water and drops pH to 6.8. Because I dont miss a water change I doubt Nitrate will pass 5ppm.

So my params are ideal for Rams. Oh, Temp is at 82-83f.

My Ram die off occured for some other reason. As I looked at my Rams today I see rapid breathing but no distress on the fish. There is another Ram getting ready to succomb - he is breathing fast and heavy - I know he's done.

So if you read this thread and have Rams please vote on the Poll and kindly share your story.

Thanks


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## J_Nordstrom

I never really paid any attention to their breathing. I bought 3 of them, 1 male 2 females, they paired off and 1 of my females died. About 2-4 weeks later my other female died. My male is doing great, has brilliant colors. Planning on getting another female and hopefully she'll be fine.


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## TitoTee

I treated my tank with Praziquantel.

Let's see what happens in terms of rapid breathing and mortality.

I have a feeling many Rams fall ill to gill flukes really easily due to their low immune systems coming from Asian farms.


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## Anthraxx8500

Rams in general are very susceptable to ph fluxuations. *** tried many times and failed nearly every time. its unfortunate that such pretty fish just cant take some water conditions. IME they are very fragile and shouldnt be attempted without at the very least low ph acid heavy water. (you can accomplish this with lots of bogwood and some tannin added to the water) to achieve a tea colored water. i hope this helps. just keep an eye on them and make sure you adhere to what your local tap supply is at. that or just buy water at the grocery store (the purified water machines at the front typically by the ice machines) it is RO water and wont have heavy minerals in it. that should help u keep the ph low and where u want it. just dont play too hard with the ph as this can lead to a whole other set of issues.


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## TitoTee

Anthraxx8500 said:


> Rams in general are very susceptable to ph fluxuations. I've tried many times and failed nearly every time. its unfortunate that such pretty fish just cant take some water conditions. IME they are very fragile and shouldnt be attempted without at the very least low ph acid heavy water. (you can accomplish this with lots of bogwood and some tannin added to the water) to achieve a tea colored water. i hope this helps. just keep an eye on them and make sure you adhere to what your local tap supply is at. that or just buy water at the grocery store (the purified water machines at the front typically by the ice machines) it is RO water and wont have heavy minerals in it. that should help u keep the ph low and where u want it. just dont play too hard with the ph as this can lead to a whole other set of issues.


You are going to find many season hobbyist differ with you on this opinion. Rams are fragile but they are not glass. Many Rams are bred in pH higher than 6.5. I think Flukes is the real culprit in most Ram deaths. I bet many people who have had Rams die on them shortly after bringing them home - let's say around that 2nd and 3rd week - probably did not notice the Fluke Pattern.

Fluke pattern fro Rams...

Fish is ok upon introduction, then fish begins to rub against substrate, driftwood etc, then fish begins breathing fast, then fish swims off to be alone somewhere hidden, then fish sits at the bottom of tank, then fish is found at the surface, then fish dies.

This is a pretty typical pattern of Ram death by Flukes.

Wild Rams like Discus - you would want to place these guys in neutral to low pH and then aclimate to your pH. No need to do that with Domestic strains.

If you notice your Ram scratching against substrate and you see no ICK spots - it has flukes! Oh, and same goes for Discus by the way.

And I have to reiterate - please vote the Poll question!


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## halffrozen

How does the ram get Flukes exactly?

Still am getting lost... lol


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## BelieveInBlue

halffrozen said:


> How does the ram get Flukes exactly?
> 
> Still am getting lost... lol


Gill flukes and intestinal flukes: they come from a HUGE variety of sources, including frozen/live foods, intermediate hosts like snails, and other fish which may share tanks/water with the rams. It usually occurs somewhere during the grow-out period, or shortly after they arrive at the lfs, since these situations have them living in very crowded conditions in close proximity with dozens of other fish. I must say though, that I've never had that pattern; when I new ram dies, all I see is it does ok for a couple days, then it starts gasping at the surface, and the next day it's dead. Although I'd say that's probably a result of stress, plus genetic weakness; too much inbreeding tends to cause weaker rams.

Also, +1 on the pH thing; they DON'T need low pH and soft waters, unless you're sure they came straight from the waters of the Amazon. The rams you get at your lfs were most likely farm raised in Asia, where the waters are usually very hard and neutral, if not slightly alkaline.


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## TitoTee

A fluke is a parasite. There are Skin Flukes and Gill Flukes.

The Gill Flukes (Dactylogyrus) is a worm like creature - they are classified as monogenean trematodes because they only have one life cycle and it is spend entirely on their Host. The eggs are carried in the water column and then transferred to fish.

A healthy fish is able to fight the parasite with its immune system but weak fish/ low immune system are easily overcome by the parasite. Asian Rams have to be flown to the USA plus the stress of local transport to the LFS then to your home is overwhelming for the not so hardy Blue Ram hence the massive die off complaints hobbyist have.

Fluke are more than likely found in every fish store and distributor. Most healthy fish will not have a problem. Both Rams and Discus are known to be highly susceptible to Fluke. For this reason I will always treat newly acquired Rams with Prazipro (a very effective medication to treat Flukes) in a quarantine tank.


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## halffrozen

Looks like my male GBR has an internal parasite.

No worms coming out of him, but he has been on the substrate for at least 12-18 hours... He was fin when I left yesterday, but got home and he was dark colored and kept falling over on the substrate, he isn't doing well at all this morning as well.

Only CLOSE fish store to my house is Petco or Petsmart... what kind of meds should I get for my tank?


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## TitoTee

Try Parasite Guard.


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## Janus_dviveidis

Hello,
I have tried to keep rams for something like 6 month, purchased from one shop and they all died. Got several from another shop and from 5 only one died initially, had 3 females and one male. For a time was very happy, all the time had fry in the tank. Then for some reason died male. In the same shop could not get males for a long time.
Bought two males from different shop, both started to breath rapidly after something like 4-5 days. Both of them died. One weak later my females started to breath rapidly and to die of. Right now last one is breathing rapidly at the top of the tank. Nothing changed in the tank, water is perfect. 
Because original fish died something like a weak later from the same symptoms I am sure it is some kind of disease or parasite, not water quality. Externally fish looks fine, bright colors, no marks. Basically we are getting sick fish in the shops...
I think I am done with rams, they depress me.


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## Mr.Dempsey

My dad has been having this problem with his GBRs, he will buy a group of 12 or so just to have them die with in a month and have only 1-2 survive longer than that. The GBRs he is buying are F1 spawned and raised in local tap water, they start out fine just like everyone elses then by day 3-4 there will be one in the upper part of the tank breathing hard, with in 4-5 hours this fish will be right at the top of the water gasping for air and by this time is to late and he will freeze the fish as once they get to this point they never come back this will havppen over and over till these 1-2 left. Everyone else in his tank are doing great, stock consists of male guppies, small Bn pleco pair spawns regularly,apistogramma double red (i gave him these as his rams keep dieing) swordtails, corry's, red cherry shrimp, and otto's, its weird to see these rams doing so bad and to see everyone else doing great. He does 50% weekly waterchanges treated with prime and the tank is hevely planted.


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## BelieveInBlue

Sorry to break it to you, but if you purchased "F1" German Blue rams, then you've been ripped off. GBRs are a german bred strain of the wild blue ram, and they're known to be finnicky due to hormone injections and linebreeding. I find that stress tends to get to them long before disease, poor water quality, or old age do.


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## taperman

Hello everyone!
Newly joined and loving it. Having problems with a fast breathing gbr...last of 4.  Nice to know it may not be my skills lacking but still would really like to have these little guys thriving in my home. Really puts a damper on the breeding plans when you cant keep them alive.

Did not know German blue rams and wild blue rams were not the same fish! So... Since I would like to improve the line when I breed them should I look for some healthy wild blue rams? Do they look the same as Gbr's? Thanks,taperman


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## BelieveInBlue

taperman said:


> Hello everyone!
> Newly joined and loving it. Having problems with a fast breathing gbr...last of 4.  Nice to know it may not be my skills lacking but still would really like to have these little guys thriving in my home. Really puts a damper on the breeding plans when you cant keep them alive.
> 
> Did not know German blue rams and wild blue rams were not the same fish! So... Since I would like to improve the line when I breed them should I look for some healthy wild blue rams? Do they look the same as Gbr's? Thanks,taperman


They're the same species. The GBR is just a heavily line-bred strain of the wild blue ram. Wild caughts are generally not as gaudily coloured as GBR, though I find that they're a lot hardier.

This is a picture of one of my wild-caught females:
http://s1191.beta.photobucket.com/u...jpg.html?&_suid=13533958519380906046072395561


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## taperman

Ok I see. Thanks for the information.


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## halffrozen

She is quite pretty BiB!

I am torn now between Electric Blue's and Wild Blue Rams like yours BiB.


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## BelieveInBlue

Oddly enough, my wild caughts do not breathe nearly as rapidly as my GBR and EBR did. EBR are nice; they're very vibrant and attract attention very well, but I find that their cost and the fact that they're quite delicate are just not worth the money, effort, and tankspace, especially when I can get wilds for 1/5th the cost, with colours that are just as nice.


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