# Lazarus



## ignatius36 (Dec 16, 2008)

This is my first post, and the story is fairly lengthy, so please bear with me. The story I'm going to tell seems strange to me, and even eerily frightening.

Five or six years ago, probably in 2002 or 2003, I bought a few Cichlids for my son's 10 gallon tank. These were babies, and the one that survived was pink in color (I'm no cichlid expert, obviously). I believe the pet store owner called him a "red" of some sort.

My son named this fish Doug, a homonym for "dug." And that's what he did all day. Dig and move gravel around, almost obsessively. I'm not sure what sore of patterns he was trying to create with the gravel, but there was no sense levelling it out to look symmetric or appealing. Doug would re-arrange it to his liking immediately.

Eventually, Doug grew too big for his tank, and we made the 29 gallon tank in our hallway a Cichlid tank, and moved him there. He was always the alpha male (I've always assumed he's male), but he never abused other fish after they learned the rules of the game.

About 5 weeks ago, Doug simply disappeared one morning. We checked the tank, the filter, the floor...no Doug. I've noticed other cichlids are "disappeared" every once and a while, but you always find a skeleton, or a few bones, or half a fish, or whatever. Something in the pecking order changed overnight, and that's the way it is. However, Doug left nary a trace. A 5 inch fish was gone.

We forgot about Doug, and were actually dealing with the death of our 15 year old Sheltie a few weeks later. Needless to say, Doug's death wasn't quite as high up on the scale of importance as our Sheltie's.

This evening, I decided it was time for a cleanup of the cichlid tank. I scrubbed at some algae for a while, then got the vacuum out to sift through the gravel. The first ornament I removed in preparation for the vacuuming was a decorative palm tree, about a foot tall with a fairly large base.

As I started to pull on it, I noticed it almost seem to move on its own, and then suddenly there was Doug, flying out from beneath the palm tree. He had lost some color, had a damaged front fin, and was skinny, but he was definitely alive.

I don't know what happened to him, and probably never will, but I suspect he got to digging again, and there might have been a bit of a tunnel collapse.

You can imagine my shock when a fish thought long dead suddenly re-appeared on the scene.

Doug's re-appearance was also a shock to the fish now claiming dominance in the tank. This was one of those yellow and black striped Cichlids that turn blue and black when they grow, if they are male (again, I don't know the correct names, just that they can be extremely aggressive). This blue fish took about a minute and a half to sense that Doug was back, and injured, and now was his time. The pecking began, and didn't stop until I removed Mr. Blue from the tank.

Doug is now recovering, and has eaten a bit. He will lie flat on his side on the bottom for a couple minutes, then swim a bit. His swimming is off balance due to his damaged fin, but he seems to be getting better.

Has anyone ever heard of this happening before? Is 5 weeks, stuck motionless in the gravel, not a fairly long time for a fish to have to endure? Is surviving this ordeal normal? I would assume he had no food, and what water was around him would have been low in oxygen. Finally, does anyone have any suggestions for medications for Doug, or just suggestions in general as to what I should do?

Thanks in advance for any help.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

One possibility is that Doug is a female, and was holding eggs/fry during this time. Female mouthbrooders hold fry for a month or so in their mouths, and go without food during this time. So, it's not unheard of that Doug is still alive after not eating for 5 weeks.

Your main problem here is that you don't have a tank large enough to house the fish that you have, and Doug may have been trying to escape the bigger fish (which sounds like a Pseudotropheus crabro - or bumblebee cichlid - one of the more aggressive mbuna that need at least a 75G tank...)

Doug may be a Metriaclima estherae, another highly aggressive fish for this tank size.

Are there other fish in the 29G???

If he's eating, then you can add some Melafix and do daily water changes to aid in healing his injuries.

But you're really going to have to have a larger tank before putting these fish back together!


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## ignatius36 (Dec 16, 2008)

Thank you for the response, and the advice, Cichlidaholic.

I tried to identify both these fish before posting, but became hopelessly lost, and gave up. However, I think I now know, after spending some more time today looking at pictures, and using your suggestions.

Doug is almost certainly a metriaclima estherae, as you guessed. The pet store owner called him a red by red when I bought him, and I see that is one of the names this fish is known by.

The blue fish is either a melanochromis auratus or a melanochromis chipokae. I'm going with the first for a couple reasons I won't get into, though I'm no expert. This fellow was never the dominant fish in the tank, and never aggressive to my knowledge (though I did mysteriously lose 3 or 4 fish this summer in what had previously been a very stable tank for a couple years). It was only yesterday, when he detected that Doug was back, and injured, that he became aggressive.

Yes, I have added other fish. About 3 months ago, I bought 5 babies, and 4 survived. I can't tell you all the types, but I would say that one is an electric yellow, and one is yet another melanochromis auratus.

I had not thought of the possibility that Doug was trying to hide. Perhaps the chemistry of the fish in the tank was changing, and I missed it. Doug had always been the leader of the tank. But as I said, mysterious things happened earlier in the summer, and fish were suddenly disappearing left and right.

I have talked to my pet store owner, and he has Melafix, which I'll purchase tomorrow. He also told me that what happened with my fish is not particularly rare...he's had the same thing happen in his pet store at least once before. Fish tend to be extremely resilient, I guess. I know people keep goldfish in their outdoor ponds here, and after 5 months of freezing winter temperatures, they thaw out and live to tell their story every April.

Anyway, I'm now stuck with an extremely aggressive m. auratus, who is living by himself for the time being. Doug, by the way, is doing much better.


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## bobbin (Dec 17, 2008)

We had the same thing happen. We were moving tanks around and placed all the fish in a holding bucket while the move took place. I insisted that there was a fish missing and after a few minutes we found the last one ( we thought ) trying to hide in the gravel. A few minutes later we were moving an ornamental plant with a ceramic base and there was a fish completely stuck in there, as in we had to help him out. I just assumed that I had lost count of them all in the bucket and that one had gotten stuck while trying to hide for the move. After the new tank was set up and we were admiring it I realized that we indeeed had a whole new fish in there. He was about 4"long and that base is only about 3" at most. We have no idea how long he was in there, where he came from or anything. He was exactly like 2 others that we had bought quite awhile back, both of which were still alive and now all 3 of them were the same size, so we don't think that it was a baby of those first 2. Don't know, never will. He did survive, but we lost him and quite a few others later from a bad case of ich.

Meanwhile speaking of disapearing fish, we have had a few that seem to be able to get out of a tank even with a lid on it. Always out the back of the tank, where we can't see. The only thing we can figure is they somehow get out the filter??? One of them was a pleco that was at least 8"long??


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

ignatius36, if you don't move these fish to a larger tank, you will probably wind up with one lone survivor. I'm afraid you're going to need more than Melafix before this is over, and it's just not fair to the poor fish.

These fish are very territorial - you don't notice it so much when they are young, but as they start to sexually mature, you've got to give them the space they need or you wind up with alot of dead fish. Should you try to place Doug back in this tank, it won't go well.

Of what we know that you have, the only one suitable for this size tank long term is the Yellow lab. Would the LFS work with you and trade the others for a couple more Yellow labs? Did they sell you these other fish knowing you only had a 29G tank???


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## ignatius36 (Dec 16, 2008)

Thanks again, Cichlidaholic.

I had removed the Blue Nightmare for 2 nights, and re-introduced him this afternoon. As you predicted, it did not work. In under 30 seconds, he was getting aggressive. I removed him from the tank, and gave him back to the pet store. Come to think of it, this is the second one of these fish I have given back...the last one was probably 4 or 5 years ago.

I put the Melafix in the tank, and Doug is doing a lot better.

I now believe you were correct when you suggested he was hiding purposely in the gravel. I hadn't seen any aggression from the Blue Nightmare, but I suspect a lot of his shenanigans were nightly affairs.

So the problem is solved, for now. I'll have to wait a year or two, or maybe longer, to see what happens with the small Cichlids I bought this summer. I never realized this was so complicated...


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Just stay on top of things...With the auratus gone, someone else is going to step up in his place - it may be Doug!

If the other fish are still juveniles, he may tolerate them for awhile, but you're still going to need a larger tank once they all mature.

I would post some pics in the unidentified section for the unknown ones. You might have something just as bad as the auratus was, and it's best to be forewarned!


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## ignatius36 (Dec 16, 2008)

Cichlidaholic, and whoever else, I've posted my six fish in the unidentified section. Feel free to help me with the identifications. Thanks. Doug is back with us...I'd say he's 95% or more recovered from his underwater cavern experience.


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## ignatius36 (Dec 16, 2008)

The six fish are in what I believe is called a 29 U.S. gallon tank. Doug will stay, since he has seniority rights (he's now just about 100% recovered from his ordeal). He's not a particularly bossy or aggressive fish, just as long as you understand his rules. Which of the other five am I going to have to remove? And when identifying the fish, someone (Cichlidaholic?) mentioned that a couple of mine look to be the result of different species breeding together. How is this possible? Most scientists define species as meaning members of that group simply cannot successfully breed with members of another group or species. If these cichlids are actually, truly different species, how are they interbreeding? Again, wouldn't most scientists simply say that if they are interbreeding, they are the same species?


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## Peacock88 (Jan 21, 2007)

Ever heard of a mut? Two different dogs breed and you get a mix of the two. Same with fish, cichlids in particular, even if they are of a different species or genus for that matter. If they have the same reproducion they can breed. African cichlids are mouthbrooders and most if not all can cross breed.

Btw GET A LARGER TANK please for the sake of the fish


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## ignatius36 (Dec 16, 2008)

Peacock, thank you for the reply. Dogs are all of the same species, no matter what the breed. That species, should anyone care to look it up, is canis lupus familiarus. All dogs, no matter what breed, can theoretically breed together, because they are all the same species, producing the "mutts" you spoke of. Dogs are just different breeds, or varieties, of the same species. In this case, human tinkering has produced the specialized breeds. If you want the human equivalent, imagine that all races (or "breeds") are **** sapiens, which we are. No matter what color we are, no matter how tall or short, big or small, we can all interbreed, since we are all the same species. However, we cannot successfully breed outside of our species. Successful breeding, incidentally, means producing fertile offspring. The classic case here is, of course, donkeys, zebras and horses. They are different species, and can produce offspring, but the offspring is infertile. The genetic line ends as soon as it begins.

A dog is a descendent of the gray wolf. It is so far removed, it can no longer theoretically mate with a gray wolf with success. However, every once in a while, there is a reported successful mating. I believe there was one in the news last year, or a couple years ago, somewhere in one of the New England states, if I remember correctly. However, extremely rare exceptions, such as this one (if it was in fact true), simply prove the rule...species cannot breed successfully with another species. And in this particular case, it was a dog breeding with one of its own distanced ancestors. In fact, some scientists still refer to dogs as simply a sub-species of the gray wolf, since their linkage is still fairly close.

You do have one statement there which surprises me...fish, even of a different genus, can mate, and I assume you mean mate successfully. Is this true? Could you please provide an example of this, or some links? It was surprising enough for me to see people freely discussing different cichlid species interbreeding successfully. The genus thing really surprises me. Please elaborate on it.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Yes, any two mouthbrooders (no matter the genus or species) can crossbreed.

That's why it's so tricky keeping these fish together and minimizing the risk of hybridization! You have to choose species that aren't similar to each other in appearance, and I would never keep two species of the same genus in a tank that I planned to salvage fry from.

There really is an "art" to setting up a cichlid tank with long term potential!

Honestly, none of the fish that you have are suitable for this size tank...(Unless you have a Yellow lab, and I can't remember and didn't think to look before starting this response.) Yellow labs are some of the more passive mbuna, so 4 or 5 of them might work long term in this size tank. (My daughter has had a successful set up with Yellow labs in a 29G tank for several years.)

Your aggression issues started because your fish are maturing. They will probably worsen. I don't think you can expect them to get better.

The tank also has potential for some of the SA dwarf cichlids, as well as Tanganyikan cichlids.


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## ignatius36 (Dec 16, 2008)

Again, thank you Cichlidaholic.

You said that any two mouthbrooders can crossbreed. Can they crossbreed successfully? In other words, are the offspring fertile?

I am, of course, more confused than ever now. Here is the Random House definition of species: related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of other species.

This, as I mentioned before, is the generally accepted definition of what a species is. It may only breed successfully with members within its own group. When people are talking about breeding different species and genuses, I have to do a double take. Technically, using the definition of species that most scientists use, which is the one above, or something like it, if you are successfully breeding different species or genuses of fish, they weren't a different species or genus to begin with. Of course, there are always exceptions -- lions can crossbreed with tigers, for instance. However, most of this crossbreeding is directed by humans, and almost always the offspring are sterile.

So I guess my question now becomes, why are there special rules of speciation for Cichlids?

Yes, I do have one yellow lab in my tank, and according to one observer, he's not a bad one. Will the auratus be OK if it turns out to be a female?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

> You said that any two mouthbrooders can crossbreed. Can they crossbreed successfully? In other words, are the offspring fertile?


Yes, the spawns are successful, producing hybrids, and those hybrids are very fertile.

I'm not the one to get into a deep discussion about this, but you can do a search for "hybrids" and find enough reading to last you through the next month, if you like. :wink:

To put it simply, in the wild, the species do not crossbreed - they are usually confined to a locale in the lakes and have many, many of their own species to choose from, but when you confine them to a glass box without choices, they can and will.

There are ways to keep them that will minimize the risk. I never keep two species of one genus in a tank together, and I never keep two species that look even vaguely similar together. But, the real key to minimizing hybridization is to make sure you have both males and females of each species. The only 100% foolproof way to prevent hybridization is to keep them in single species tanks.

With the fish you have, some are hybrids, making them more prone to crossbreed with anything else in sight. And, when you only have one of this species and two of that species, once they are sexually mature, they are going to breed with whatever is available.



> Yes, I do have one yellow lab in my tank, and according to one observer, he's not a bad one. Will the auratus be OK if it turns out to be a female?


Female auratus can be just as aggressive as males at times. I would remove everything except the Yellow lab, and perhaps pick up a few more of them.


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## Peacock88 (Jan 21, 2007)

An example: metriaclima estherae (red zebra) and labidochromis caeruleus (yellow lab) are known for breeding together. Notice the difference in genus. Search their common names with hybrid and you will find a pic.


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## ignatius36 (Dec 16, 2008)

Thank you, Peacock. Could you save me some time and answer a simple question for me on these two? Are the offspring they produce fertile?

And this question is for anyone. Are there documented cases of a South American cichlid breeding successfully (in other words, producing fertile offspring) with an African cichlid?

I am now spending quite a bit of time with the species and genus issue, and have a few theories. However, I'm not going to say anything until I have a few more responses from people on the internet. At first, I thought I had things figured out, but now I sense there is a whole lot more going on that I ever suspected. I would be extremely interested in any responses at all from Cichlid hobbyists concerning this topic. Thanks in advance.


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## Peacock88 (Jan 21, 2007)

The offspring of these two are fertile and almost all are between these cichlids. There however physical abnormalities that occur sometimes much like those that occur in offspring from same species fishes.

I don't know if there are any cases of the SA/A offspring being fertile but I wouldn't think so. This is because they are from two different sides of the world and have developed and adapted differently. They both have different behaviors and breeding habits. For instance SA cichlids pair up while A cichlids need many females to one male. Also, SA cichlids usually build nests for fry while A cichlids are maternal mouthbrooders. Finally, their physical structures are different which would probably make them undesirable to each other.


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## ignatius36 (Dec 16, 2008)

I think I have it figured out now. African Cichlids are the fastest evolving animal there is. They evolve at such a fast pace it is sometimes called explosive. Groups break off from original groups, and begin to differentiate immediately. Instead of the normal millions of years, or hundreds of thousands of years, Cichlids evolve in just thousands of years. There apparently is even a documented case of Cichlids being introduced into a lake and forming two distinct groups in 20 years. The groups that develop have a different genetic print, but can still breed successfully with each toher, because the time length from their divergence is so short. Eventually, according to the rules, they will become distinct enough that they won't be able to successfully mate with the original group. In the wild, these groups will have nothing to do with each other, and are in the process of evolving separately. However, in a tank in someone's house, it is a different matter. Suddenly, they will mate with lots of fish they would have previously considered taboo, or might never have run into in the first place.

In a sense, Cichlids are caught in a time warp. Many are at this moment differentiating from another species or group. But they haven't diffentiated quite to the point where the breeding doesn't work. I suppose a purist would say that since they can still mate successfully, even if they don't or won't in the wild, they are still technically the same species. Only at the point where they can no longer mate successfully with the other group do they become a distinct species. But I am guessing that DNA testing which is now available is able to show that a group is genetically distinct, though still able to breed with another group, and most Cichlid scientists are using the DNA testing as their definition of a species. They also know that, down the road (however many thousands of years it takes), interbreeding will become impossible.

I haven't received answers from all the people I was asking on the net, but this is the way it is looking from what I have received. Does this sound right to the Cichlid specialists here?


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