# Is substrate nescessary



## nillu (Jan 23, 2009)

hi all, this may have been repeated but this whole substrate issue is frustrating me. have tried sand but i find too difficult to clean. have tried gravel but even that traps waste. my cuz who keeps marines said not to use any at all. a few people have told me this. im really confused. main problem with cleaning is trying to clean underneath and behind rocks. as soon as i move rocks a whole heap of waste is everywhere which is why i dont want any substrate. please advise if its ok to do so.


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## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

I think it depends what type of fish you are keeping. If you are keeping malawi's then they love sand.


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## iceblue (Apr 27, 2004)

Some say the substrate will add to a fishes comfort. I think even I would have trouble walking around if I had a constant reflection coming up at me.

Gravel does trap gunk. When I had it, gravel vacuuming was just a part of my weekly water change schedule. Since then I have switched to sand and really like the way it looks. You shouldn't get much of a build up of detritus inside it because of how well it packs down. With good circulation most of it will be picked up by your filters. A regular maintenance schedule and some careful vacuuming should take care of your problems. Check out this vid. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/videos/cleaning_sand.php

Whether you have substrate or not your still going to get a build up of crud under your rocks. In fact I would say you would get less of it if the rocks are placed directly on the tank bottom and then surrounded by the sand.


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## nillu (Jan 23, 2009)

thanks for advice. to gafishman's question im keeping malawis.

cheers iceblue video was useful. i could change back to sand but i take it that means removing fish from tank, removing all water and decor and then adding sand or is there easier way??


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## gmaschke (Aug 23, 2008)

I have gravel in all my tanks but I'd really like to switch to sand just dont want to do the overhaul just yet as it would be a ton of work. It does look much better


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## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

I would not recommend putting sand in with the fish in there. It probably could be done but the thing is when you drop the sand in with water it turns into a giant depth charge and explodes at the bottom and sand goes everywhere.


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## iceblue (Apr 27, 2004)

I know it can be hard to find the time to do things, especially if you just recently did something major. I did a complete make over for my 84g tank in just 4 hours and the results were very satisfying. It was a lot of work but I didn't see any other way of doing it in a quicker fashion.
http://www.mbunamadness.com/forum/viewt ... f=20&t=852

Just a few days ago I drained the tank down to a few inches and pulled all the rock out once again to add some much larger lava stones I had found. I left all the Mbuna "in tank" when I did it and they came through like troopers. Of course I already had eggcrate down with 1 1/2" garden stepping stones chipped to size laid down across the back of the tank. The rest of the area on the bottom not covered by the stepping stones is an 1 1/2" of sand. This makes it much easier to rearrange the rocks when need be. Below is a picture of the eggcrate and the stepping stone on top of it. As you can see the water was quite turbid but the fish did just fine.


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## TailorO (Apr 7, 2008)

I just spent the entire day switching out my substrate. I had black moon sand and I replaced it with white arganite. I did it with the fish still in the tank. I removed all the rock and used a hose to suck up all the old sand. The hose drained into a bucket outside so I could keep the sand. After removing the black sand I had the tank about half empty then I started adding the new sand one hand full at a time. Then I filled the water 3\4 of the way up and turned on the filters and the heater and waited for it to clear enough for me to be able to add my new black lava rock. It took a long time but my fish didn't really seem bothered by the cloudy water


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## HiImSean (Apr 5, 2007)

i use sand in all my tanks. IMO its pretty easy to clean with a python cleaner, much easier than gravel. it give the tanks more of a natural feel. if you do add sand, wash it good first b/c it will usually turn your water very cloudy. i just added about 40lbs of sand to my 125g and i washed it before putting it in my tank, it still took over a day for the cloudyness to disipate.

to the original question of do you need a substrate, no you dont. people use it for looks. there is nothing wrong with bare bottom tanks. they are much easier to clean but to me looks boring


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

an extremely high percentage of mbuna live in rocky shorelines with NO sediment; they spend their entire existence eating algae/crusteacans from rocks and the water column.
But a substrate sure looks better than bare glass.
Perhaps you could try building a tank floor out of slate?


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## nillu (Jan 23, 2009)

floor out of slate sounds ok. how would u do that. would u not get build up of waste underneath


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

Sorry, I haven't tried it myself, so I can't say.

But it would seem to me that if you attacked a fair amount of slate with a hammer, and then put the pieces together like a puzzle to fill as much of the tank floor as possible, and then siliconed all the joints (and maybe sprinkled sand on the silicone when wet, for appearance's sake) you might be able to create a rock floor which nothing could get underneath.


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## Lively (Jan 13, 2009)

ridley25 said:


> Sorry, I haven't tried it myself, so I can't say.
> 
> But it would seem to me that if you attacked a fair amount of slate with a hammer, and then put the pieces together like a puzzle to fill as much of the tank floor as possible, and then siliconed all the joints (and maybe sprinkled sand on the silicone when wet, for appearance's sake) you might be able to create a rock floor which nothing could get underneath.


I wonder, how about putting a bunch of silicone on the glass and pressing the rock into it to fill all the void space and then using the sand trick for the "grout" lines left behind? You could even jam a few up to create a less of a flagstone appearance. I'd hate to have to take it once it was done...


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## 748johnd (Jun 30, 2007)

Back in the 50s many of the tanks with stainless steel frames had slate bottoms. I had a couple and they were really nice. I did use gravel as a substrate though. If you didn't want to use a substrate the slate did look good. I'm probably not the youngest person on the forum since I had my first tank in the early 50s.


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## Lively (Jan 13, 2009)

748johnd said:


> Back in the 50s many of the tanks with stainless steel frames had slate bottoms. I had a couple and they were really nice. I did use gravel as a substrate though. If you didn't want to use a substrate the slate did look good. *I'm probably not the youngest person on the forum since I had my first tank in the early 50s*.


The voice of experience! Was the glass attached directly to the slate with silicone? Sounds like something that might be buildable...and heavy! lol


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## 748johnd (Jun 30, 2007)

Lively, The bottom was only slate and not attached to the glass except where the front, back and sides came in contact with the bottom. At that time silicone was not used. The aquarium cement used then was a black tar-like substance. I often wish they still made slate bottom tanks.


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## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

so they attach the glass straight to a single piece of slate?? that would be awsome. I wonder if you still can get these any where.


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## Lively (Jan 13, 2009)

748johnd said:


> Lively, The bottom was only slate and not attached to the glass except where the front, back and sides came in contact with the bottom. At that time silicone was not used. The aquarium cement used then was a black tar-like substance. *I often wish they still made slate bottom tanks*.


Hmmm, interesting... sounds totally doable especially with today's silicone. Would be significantly heavier than a normal tank.

How thick was the slate?

I want to make one now! I mean right now... like run out to the glass store and get some glass now! lol. Too bad there is a snow storm on the way so I can forget that until the weekend. OH! wait! I have a broken bottom 10 gallon in the garage (was used for a hamster). I have silicone.

Sadly, I thought i had slate but I don't - well, I do but it's not even close to the right size, it's too large and I don't have a wet saw to cut it with... I wonder if someone i know has one... lol


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## 748johnd (Jun 30, 2007)

Lively, The thickness of the slate would depend on the size of the tank. A 5-gallon tank probably had slate about 1/8-inch thick. I don't know how thick the slate would be on a large tank such as a 75-gallon. Also in the 50s some tank frames were painted iron and even nice shiny copper which was very expensive and the cement had to applied really carefully so that the water did not come into contact with the copper. Some of the stainless steel frame tanks are still in use although I don't if their bottoms are slate. I'm not sure when they stopped making slate bottomed tanks.


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## Lively (Jan 13, 2009)

748johnd,

That is too cool! I've seen some pics of old tanks - I thought they were ugly, but those sound like something I'd love. My biggest complaint about the hobby is the lack of interesting tanks and stands - unless you're willing to spend a fortune. I bet they quit doing slate because of cost and weight and the same for the decorative trim/frame.

You've given me a lot to think about and a new project... :? thanks.. I think!


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

Something else (something more expensive) just occurred to me. You could also silicone Slimline backgrounds to the tank bottom instead of using a substrate:
http://www.gillsnfins.ca/aquaterra.php#slimline


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## nillu (Jan 23, 2009)

ridley25 said:


> Something else (something more expensive) just occurred to me. You could also silicone Slimline backgrounds to the tank bottom instead of using a substrate:
> http://www.gillsnfins.ca/aquaterra.php#slimline


that is an excellent idea and not too expensive too. i think i will try this set-up. thanks ridley


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