# Iodide?



## Paleo fish (Feb 21, 2008)

I read somewhere that cichlids from lake tanganyike need iodide in their water, Is this true and If so where do i get it and How much should i use.


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## Neolamprologus Marco (Jan 14, 2008)

I think iodide is some kind of salt...right?. I dont think you need to add salt to a cichlid tank. :-?


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

I think you are thinking of Iodine, which is part of those rift lake salt recipes. Sometimes lake tangs kept in soft water get gland problems due to lake of Iodine.


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## Jorsay (Jul 14, 2008)

Iodide is the ion of iodine (That just means that it is an iodine atom with one extra electron giving it a negative charge). Since it has a charge, it can bond to sodium ion and other positive ions to make a salt. Iodine is commonly added to table salt because humans need it. I don't knonw where captive cichlids get their iodine, but, if they need it (which they probably do), they must be getting it somewhere because my fish are fine without me adding any to the tank.


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## Floridagirl (Jan 10, 2008)

Tangs, especially Lelupi are prone to goiter. Iodine prevents this. Iodine is commonly used in reef aquariums, and can be found at your LFS. I add a few drops each week after my water change.


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## Paleo fish (Feb 21, 2008)

Ok I'll see if i can find any at petsmart.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Easy, don't start adding stuff until you are sure you need it. :wink:

I keep several tanks with various Tangs for several years and have never needed to supplement with idiodine. I haven't heard of a fish illness yet that suddenly was fixed by adding iodine. If you are worried, get a general trace element supplement that will have some iodide in it.

Here's a related topic: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... ght=goiter

I do add quite a bit of salt to my tanks, because my cichlids are much more colorful, active, and breed like crazy when my water is very hard. But I add Epsom salt, which doesn't intentionally have iodine in the mix. But with the food, the bakind soda, the salt... some trace iodide is likely in every tank.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

I've only heard of it being a problem in very softwater areas (ie Seattle) and with people that don't use those african salts. Before the salts caught on around here, we used the waste water from RO units for tangs. They did get goiter rather frequently until iodine was added. People that used those rift salts never had the problem though, the recipe for those commerical salts seems to include enough iodine for the fish. So if you use the salts, you probably won't need anything additional, especially if using tap water in most areas of the US. The reason of course is most areas have fairly hard water to begin with.


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 11, 2006)

Most Tang buffers/salts will have trace amounts of Iodine and if you make your own buffer with the use of reef salts there will be plenty supplemented that way.

I would not go and dose iodine unless it is needed and you plan on testing for it cause an overdose or buildup of Iodine can be detrimental to the fish's well being.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

I don't wan to single any response out, but this is a pet peeve of mine.

To not add it can be just as disadvantageous as adding it - so "do nothing" it not necessarily good advice. There is definitely a double standard between people who supply additives to their tank and people who do not. For some reason people think it is better or "purer" to not add anything to the water - when they have no idea what is or what is not in the water to begin with. Tap water is usually far from natural or pure.

Unless you know everything about the water in your tank it can be just as bad to not add supplements to your water as adding too much of something to your tank. Out of the tap your water can already contain substances that are hazardous, or at hazardous levels (think chloramine as one example). It also true that it can be deficient in substances that your fish might need, or do better with (ex: carbonate in soft water).

I think the best advice for every fish keeper is to test your water - or at least do some investigation to have some idea of what is and what is not in your water.

And to state the obvious, the fact the a fish is alive is not enough evidence that it is healthy or living in optimal conditions.


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## Floridagirl (Jan 10, 2008)

Bored at work........  Thank you, I could not have said it better, and didn't. RO water, which I often (not always) use has a low PH and no additives, so you must add to the water to affect PH, etc. I also live in an area with fairly low PH and test the water often (for a reef tank esp.). I prefer the RO water (have lost fish due to our horrible Florida water) but do not have a unit as of yet. So..test your water and let us know!
P.S. I must be working too hard at work...lol


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

We are all guilty of blind experimentation with our tanks on occasion, and it's good to be reminded that unless we have a way to test the pre- and post- conditions, we are still left in the dark. ( But, unless you have a necropsy performed on a fish to confirm goiter, anecdotal evidence is as good as it gets. :roll: ) Our tanks are extremely confined systems that we've engineered without knowing a whole lot about them. To make any changes without knowledge can upset the poorly understood and unquantified balance of a healthy tank. So, respectfully, I disagree that... "_To not add it can be just as disadvantageous as adding it_" in regards to a tank showing no signs of ill health. 
Illness and death from aggression, water quality, bad quarantine habits, and from more common diseases are infinitely more likely in your tanks than from lack of a trace element that can be found in just about everything but RO water. :thumb:

If you don't have fish dying of disease that can't be attributed to anything else, then I wouldn't monkey with iodide in a fresh water tank. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!


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## Multies (Mar 9, 2007)

ohh yeah, i agree with triscuit.
i dont even test my water. if i think somethings wrong, i do a big water change. my fish breed.
breeding fish=happy fish. and would cichlids breed if the water conditions suck?
i dont like adding stuff to my tank(unless i need to) it makes me feel uncomfortable.

i also agree in the saying
If it ain't broken, Dont fix it!


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I can find no survey of Lake Tang water that gives iodide concentation, yet it is claimed that it is an important trace element in Tang salt products, eg http://www.seachem.com/products/product ... eSalt.html

I have no idea what its benifits to Tang fish are though.

Is iodide toxic to fish at elivated levels?

If you do use it I guess you could copy the levels (0.02 mg per g of salt mix) in the seachem salt mix, without risk.

(health benifits for humans are highly debated, hence the contriversy about adding it to tap water here in the UK in areas where it is low and chlorine is high (I think there is some blocking of iodide uptake by chlorine hence another complication))


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Also just checked, potassium iodide is an ingredient in some quality fish foods. I guess they can get there iodide from that too/alternatively.

It may also already be in the tap water for some of us and not in others. :wink:


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## Jorsay (Jul 14, 2008)

> health benifits for humans are highly debated


Just to clarify, iodine is a vital part of the thyroid hormones that function on nearly all cells to regulate metabolism, bone and muscle growth, nervous tissue etc... Iodine deficiency would cause problems in any or all of these areas in addition to goiter, which, I believe, is overgrowth of the thyroid due to a lack of negative feedback (i.e. iodine inhibits the growth of the thyroid, so when there is no iodine, the thyroid grows). Fish have thyroids. Iodine is necessary for the good health of humans, fish and any other animal with a thyroid, so any debate on health benefits must be about 'how much' iodine and not whether or not iodine is needed. Iodine is certainly necessary for good health.

Iodine in relatively large quantities can be poisonous to humans (and, no doubt, fish).

I just checked on the internet and found a document by the WHO (World Health Org.) that seemed to say (I didn't read the entire thing) that most if not all drinking water in the US has iodine.

As far as adding it to a fish tank, it seems to me that the LFS or anyone else rasing fish in your area would certainly know if there was an iodine deficiency in your water that might affect your fish. Iodine is also found in seafood, cow's milk, and added to mose table salt.

By the way, I see no reason why cichlids would be affected by iodine (or lack of it) any differently than any other fish.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

triscuit said:


> Our tanks are extremely confined systems that we've engineered without knowing a whole lot about them. To make any changes without knowledge can upset the poorly understood and unquantified balance of a healthy tank.


Thats exactly my point. Unless you know down to the molecule what is in your water, it is just as likely that not adding supplements can have the same outcome as adding supplements - because you don't know whats in your water to begin with. Like you said we have constructed a confined system engineering by people who, if you think about it, don't really know what they are doing as far as water quality is concerned. For some reason people think that if they just add water from the tap that is the most natural thing and that if you add supplements then you are "adding chemicals" and just messing up the pure water.

The problem is tap water is not pure, it is not natural, and it is not engineered to mimic the natural environment of any fish species.

Thank about where your water comes from. If you could trace it backwards from your sink think about where it has been. The best answer to that is who knows! It has seen geological runoff, chemical runoff, pollution, bacteria, parasites, microbes, the list goes on. This is why there are strict water treatment policies and standards for drinking water. The problem is that water treatment is yet another process the water goes through that modifies the water. This water from your tap is meant to be safe to drink, not safe to breathe in. Very different requirements. Especially for fish that live in very different climate, let alone a differnt continent than where we keep them.

I am not advocating adding anything to your water. I hop that is clear. My point is simply that people freak out when you say you put something like iodine in your water - but the people freaking out have no idea if it is already in their water anyway. There is a double standard.

And worst of all is the assumption that we are providing a "natural" environment for our fish if we don't add anything to the water. This is as far from the truth as can be possible. I am not saying this is inherently bad, but we certainly don't need to believe a lie.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*boredatwork*
I totally agree with your last post bored... but not the first where you suggest that adding and not adding could be equatable.

Call it hypocritical, but to me, actions are always more foolish than inaction. 

Still, I hope folks read your replies and at least think about what they insist you should add, or avoid adding and learn to suggest that people at least wait until A. there is a problem and B. they know how to start figuring out what the right action might be.

I have one question for the debaters... since fish have thyroid tissue and not a gland, how do we know that fish got a "goiter"? Anyone have a photo of a confirmed "goiter" of a cichlids thyroid tissue?


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## Jorsay (Jul 14, 2008)

A gland is nothing more than a cell or group of epithelial cells that secrete substances. It is inaccurate to distinguish between thyroid tissue and thyroid gland. I looked it up, and the thyroid gland of a fish is located in the floor of the pharynx. I have no idea what a fish with goiter would look like.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

I sincerely appreciate these discussions, thanks to all for making this a great venue for ideas and information.

And, I hope we didn't lose the initial poster... you sparked a great debate, Paleo Fish! :thumb:


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Jorsay said:


> It is inaccurate to distinguish between thyroid tissue and thyroid gland.


True... but I think you know what I meant... the thyroid tissue is spread out and not in one spot as it is when we think of a typical "gland", so this is why I wondered what a goiter in that type of tissue actually looks like.

Anyone have photos? a link?


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## Jorsay (Jul 14, 2008)

Actually I know nothing specific about the thyroid of a fish. However, I did read that it is located in the pharynx. It sounds like it is localized in one place and not spread around. Do you have info to the contrary? I looked for a picture but couldn't find one. I certainly didn't mean to come off rude. Sorry about that.


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## Paleo fish (Feb 21, 2008)

triscuit said:


> I sincerely appreciate these discussions, thanks to all for making this a great venue for ideas and information.
> 
> And, I hope we didn't lose the initial poster... you sparked a great debate, Paleo Fish! :thumb:


Yea i didn't mean for this to be such a long thread :lol: But Great info guys I'am learning a lot opcorn:


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

I have seen a picture in an fish magazine of a fish that had it. Mostly there seemed to be swelling underneath the gills, kinda looked like it swallowed a golf ball. Or like a fake parrot cichlid. :lol: Of course, the only proof of this was the article saying a necropsy of said fish proved it was goiter. It was one of the two larger Julie species.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Jorsay said:


> Actually I know nothing specific about the thyroid of a fish. However, I did read that it is located in the pharynx. It sounds like it is localized in one place and not spread around. Do you have info to the contrary? I looked for a picture but couldn't find one. I certainly didn't mean to come off rude. Sorry about that.


I mostly remember from zoology classes, but when I google fish anatomy for a refresher, it says the same thing I recalled... 
http://vet.osu.edu/assets/courses/vm608 ... atomy.html

widely distributed throughout the viscera.

There may be a grouping of thyroid follicles in the throat, especially in light of what dwarfpike mentions about looking like it swallowed a golf ball. I'll have to try and google some photos later of what the thyroid distribution looks like in a fish. Maybe I'm wrong about calling it more spread out than ours?

No worries about how you replied... I'm not expert on fish anatomy! :lol: The most I look at the tissues at this stage of my life is on the fork as it heads from plate to mouth!!!


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