# 5 Dead and counting...



## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

Ideas/help needed. Details below

Monday 
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I came downstairs to a dead male peacock in my 75.

I pulled everything apart and found a dead Ptyochromis sp. "salmon" male wedged under rocks - he was rotting.

Checked water parameters, everything was in line:

Ammonia 0.0
Nitrites 0.0
Nitatres ~20
pH 7.8
Water 81F

Did 80+% water change anyway. Noticed a male Ptyochromis sp. "salmon" breathing hard and sitting on the bottom - fins out and good color nothing else I could notice.

Tuesday
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Dead male Ptyochromis sp. "salmon".

Another male Ptyochromis sp. "salmon" breathing hard and sitting on the bottom - fins out and good color.

Started treating tank with Metronidazole.

Wednesday
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Dead male Ptyochromis sp. "salmon".

Checked everything again:
Ammonia 0.0
Nitrites 0.0
Nitatres ~5
pH 7.8
Water 81F

Another male Ptyochromis sp. "salmon" and the male Pundamilia nyererei (Ruti Island) both breathing hard and near or sitting on the bottom - fins out and good color on both.

Caught the male Ptyochromis sp. "salmon" with my hand







.

Pictures below.

















Did not notice until the light hit him just right the patches/missing scales on the side - doesn't seem like typical aggression wounds, but weak fish in a cichlid tank I can't absolutely swear against it.

No flash this time - a little blurry because I had to leave the shutter open longer but still shows it pretty well.










The mbuna have been completely unaffected so far.

Edit: The guy in the pictures died already, whatever is going is happening fast...


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

Okay - I am assuming Columnaris and started treating with Kanamycin sulfate (gram-negative antibiotic).


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

What do you think brought this on? Did you add any new fish recently?


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

13razorbackfan said:


> What do you think brought this on? Did you add any new fish recently?


Dumb luck of getting 7M:1F Ptyochromis sp. "salmon" - I believe is the reason.

I moved them into this tank a couple of weeks ago from a 40 Breeder to give them more room as things were getting a little rambunctious in the smaller tank as they were growing.

The males were fine 6 of the 7 showing good color, but I suspect as they have grown, stress started to build.

I see another male breathing hard now - something virulent and nasty has definitely taken hold.


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

Today's update
===============
30% Water change - treating with Kanamycin sulfate & Metronidazole - lights out and no feeding.

No dead fish so far today.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

GoofBoy said:


> Today's update
> ===============
> 30% Water change - treating with Kanamycin sulfate & Metronidazole - lights out and no feeding.
> 
> No dead fish so far today.


That is exactly what I would have done. I know it can be expensive with the meds and water changes but I have always had good success in the past with small daily water changes....lights on only to feed and then give them another hour or so that is if they will eat....then lights off and total and complete darkness.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Oh no!

Sounds like maybe you have turned it around. Sorry for your losses.


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

Today's update 
=============== 
30% Water change - treating with Kanamycin sulfate & Metronidazole - lights out and no feeding.

Figured out last night that one of the 2 Rena smart heaters that was flashing high temp was still heating, couldn't figure out why I couldn't get the temp down in the tank. Removed the heater.

This morning water temp now finally down to 75.

Dead Male Ruti Island and 3 Dead yellow Labs including a girl who was absolutely perfectly clean and bright yellow, this was her from 2 years ago







:










Bad week.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)




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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

Two more labs with labored breathing sitting on the bottom, this sucks...


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

GoofBoy said:


> Two more labs with labored breathing sitting on the bottom, this sucks...


Are you sure there is not something else going on with your water? I don't see any signs of columnaris or anything....they just look sick. Are they gasping for air towards the top of the tank?

Have you tried to PM Robin?


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

13razorbackfan said:


> GoofBoy said:
> 
> 
> > Two more labs with labored breathing sitting on the bottom, this sucks...
> ...


No, they are on the bottom.

Same water and water change schedule as the other 5 tanks in the house. I have fry in a 10 gallon right next to this tank and have done water changes on the fry tank this week while changing the 75 with the dying fish. No losses to the fry tank - this is definitely illness in the 75.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

GoofBoy said:


> 13razorbackfan said:
> 
> 
> > GoofBoy said:
> ...


Will they eat or even try to eat? If not I would continue with water changes and total darkness. Just try and eliminate stress to help with their immune system.


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

13razorbackfan said:


> GoofBoy said:
> 
> 
> > 13razorbackfan said:
> ...


Not trying to feed them and they are not racing up to the corner to be fed even without being fed for a couple of days, all is not well.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

GoofBoy said:


> 13razorbackfan said:
> 
> 
> > GoofBoy said:
> ...


Man....I feel for ya and your fish. Are you trying to keep the tank totally blacked out?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Could some toxin have gotten into that one tank? I've never heard of an illness that progressed so fast with basically no symptoms. Columnaris patches are large considering the size of the fish and develop very quickly. Beside that...my fish ate and swam around like normal even with the patches.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

DJRansome said:


> Could some toxin have gotten into that one tank? I've never heard of an illness that progressed so fast with basically no symptoms. Columnaris patches are large considering the size of the fish and develop very quickly. Beside that...my fish ate and swam around like normal even with the patches.


This is a good guess IMO. I would maybe try to add some fresh activated carbon with air pump and air stone and see if their gasping improves.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Or if the fish are not too far gone, try moving a couple into another tank with 100% new water. Or even into a breeder net in one of your healthy tanks to see if he/she improves.


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

Today's update 
=============== 
One of the 3 remaining yellow labs is not going to make it, grabbed her with my hand.

Noticed first external symptom as one of the female Ruti Islands has long stringy white poo - not sure if this is secondary or not.

I have not done anything to this tank that I haven't done to the other 3 tanks in the office.

The only thing different is some Manzanita is/(now was) in the tank (these are pieces of wood that have been used before in my tanks with no problems for over a year). But, based on what is different I pulled it. White gue on one of the pieces, anyone know what it is?










I will not expose and other tanks to these fish.

I like the Carbon idea - I can try that, but that basically ends the antibiotic treatment, which obviously isn't working.

So, after I clean my 125 and fry tanks I'll do as close to a 100% water change on this tank as I can.

Do I add carbon or continue treating based on white stringy poo? What do you all think?


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

If the meds have had zero positive effects so far, maybe give the carbon a shot. How many have u lost so far and how many are still alive? Maybe add some aquarium salt as well. I find salt helps a lot with sick fish.


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

Mudkicker said:


> If the meds have had zero positive effects so far, maybe give the carbon a shot. How many have u lost so far and how many are still alive? Maybe add some aquarium salt as well. I find salt helps a lot with sick fish.


10 Dead, 10 still alive.

I will try the carbon and look into the salt.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

from that pic it looks like mould on the wood. is there any mould on the glass or gravel? it is usually due to poor water quality. along with the carbon and salt, do 10% water changes per day and pop a strong air stone in there. how is your water circulation in the tank?


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

Mudkicker said:


> from that pic it looks like mould on the wood. is there any mould on the glass or gravel? it is usually due to poor water quality. along with the carbon and salt, do 10% water changes per day and pop a strong air stone in there. how is your water circulation in the tank?


Smelled like mold too, been in there about a month - did nothing to sterilize it before I put it in







- was sitting out on the back porch - piled rocks on the end to hold it down - hence no flow around it.

Screw 10% - did a full tear down 98% water change inspected everything - nothing remotely looking like the mold gue anywhere. Did see some more white stringy poo...










Carbon in, added 1/3cup salt, double treated with prime on refill waited a bit and restarted the filters and put the survivors back in with clean rocks.

Edit: Water circulation - 2 Rena XP2 Filters and 2 MaxiJet 1200's attached to undergravel jets...

I just put the carbon in the filters did not touch the water or media in them.

We will see tomorrow.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

GoofBoy said:


> Mudkicker said:
> 
> 
> > from that pic it looks like mould on the wood. is there any mould on the glass or gravel? it is usually due to poor water quality. along with the carbon and salt, do 10% water changes per day and pop a strong air stone in there. how is your water circulation in the tank?
> ...


Good idea on the large water change. I change between 75-85% of my water every 3-5 days. My fish love the fresh water.


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

Female Salmon died - got a couple of great shots of her gills







.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

Never seen that before. Had you had any luck researching it?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I looked in my fish med book but their pics of gills are microscopic. And I looked in an article I saved by a fish doc from a magazine...A to Z of fish health. But I did not come up with anything.  Hope things are better!


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

Man, this is a real bummer. Is it possible to move the remaining fish in to a hospital tank? It might be if you abandon the tank, it will stop the carnage.


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

13 now dead the rest are pretty listless - dumped the carbon went back to antibiotics (Kanamycin sulfate & Erythromycin).

This is now a hospital tank - I see no difference. Assuming total loss within 72hrs at this point.

Suckatude...


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

when things get desperate for me, i use the combo of Maracyn + Maracyn 2. It is crazy expensive but has made miracles for me in the past. sorry for your situation, it is horrible


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

Symptoms appearing as I believe the more robust fish are letting things develop a bit further.



















Only one female Ruti Island and a yellow lab are left not showing distress at the moment, another Ruti male is laboring with breathing - I'm thinking of humanely putting them down as I don't trust anything in/from this tank - bleaching everything, tossing the sand substrate and starting over in a few weeks.

Thoughts?


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

Your situation is bizarre. Are any of your fish wild caught? When was the last addition to your tank and where did you get it/them? Did you quarantine?


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

If you're already treating with kanamycin, I'd add nitrofurazone to the mix as well. API Furan-2 is one product. If you're suspecting bacteria, this will make for a broader based antibiotic.
If you have methylene blue on hand, try some baths or dips. I can post dosages if needed.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

I am going to take a shot in the dark here, based on the heavy breathing, spots on gills and discoloration of the fins...ammonia burn.


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

GTZ said:


> If you're already treating with kanamycin, I'd add nitrofurazone to the mix as well. API Furan-2 is one product. If you're suspecting bacteria, this will make for a broader based antibiotic.
> If you have methylene blue on hand, try some baths or dips. I can post dosages if needed.


Unfortunately Nitrofurazone, Furan-2 & methylene blue are a 2-hour drive away and I am down to 1 fish not in distress (which means 12hrs tops - if history is to repeat).

Yes, I need to build up my medicine chest a bit.



Mudkicker said:


> Your situation is bizarre. Are any of your fish wild caught? When was the last addition to your tank and where did you get it/them? Did you quarantine?
> 
> I am going to take a shot in the dark here, based on the heavy breathing, spots on gills and discoloration of the fins...ammonia burn.


No wild caught fish no new fish brought into the house since November, ammonia is still zero - just tested again to make sure I wasn't lying.


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

It's really troubling. This could happen to anyone else, and what do we know about stopping it? An experienced fish keeper loses all the fish, one by one, and can't find a way to stop it. Maybe you should freeze some of the dead fish for a later diagnosis. We need a biologist who can figure out the cause.

Really sorry for your losses.

:-?


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## Gags (Mar 23, 2012)

Sorry for you lose....
I did't read whole thread....Dd you check water which your putting in tank....
Maybe water is culprit from source.
I think there might problem with water from source..


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

Gags said:


> Sorry for you lose....
> I did't read whole thread....Dd you check water which your putting in tank....
> Maybe water is culprit from source.
> I think there might problem with water from source..


The water changes on this tank 100% correspond to the water change in the 10g fry tank right next to in the picture above - zero losses in the fry tank, I feel confident in asserting it it is not the water source.


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

Well down to a female Ruti Island who seems unaffected, a female Lab who is struggling a bit (not looking real good), and a BN Pleco that seems oblivious. After work today the survivors go into a 10g to continue with the antibiotic treatment.

Thanks all for your input on the thread and PMs.


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

vann59 said:


> It's really troubling. This could happen to anyone else, and what do we know about stopping it? An experienced fish keeper loses all the fish, one by one, and can't find a way to stop it. Maybe you should freeze some of the dead fish for a later diagnosis. We need a biologist who can figure out the cause.
> 
> Really sorry for your losses.
> 
> :-?


*DanniGirl* has passed photos and information along to a professional, we will see if there is any productive feedback.


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## lilcountrygal (Dec 27, 2011)

Bored at work... just doing some research. What about Costia Ichthyobodo fish parasite. (Costiasis). 
Reading up a bit, I saw some pictures that resembled your gill pictures, and it does reference some gray patches.... spreads rapidly, kills quickly, etc.


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

If it was Costiasis, that would suck , seeing as I lowered the temperature, I could have just raised the temp to 84-85 and been done with it as I read is can't live in water above 82.4F.


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## lilcountrygal (Dec 27, 2011)

sounds like Ich, but kills like the plague. I'm interested in finding out what DanniGirl finds out.


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## mcbdz (Jul 5, 2011)

Sadly, I want to agree with lilcountrygal. From what I've been reading Costiasis would be a good candidate for these deaths. I would go with a salt tx but, there has been a salt resistent strain so if no improvement may want to tx with Formalin. worth a try with the ones remaining to see if it works. That way you'll at least know.


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

mcbdz said:


> Sadly, I want to agree with lilcountrygal. From what I've been reading Costiasis would be a good candidate for these deaths. I would go with a salt tx but, there has been a salt resistent strain so if no improvement may want to tx with Formalin. worth a try with the ones remaining to see if it works. That way you'll at least know.


The three survivors are in a 10g right now, get the full spectrum antibiotic treatment.

If it is/was Costiasis can't I just turn the water temp up to - say 86, for a day and be done with it?

I can do that after I run the antibiotic course regardless to be safe.

Please advise.


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## lilcountrygal (Dec 27, 2011)

its worth a try. May help, may not... but at this point, what the heck. I hope it works


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## lilcountrygal (Dec 27, 2011)

wanted to add (cant find the edit), I'd imagine you'd have to keep the heat up for longer than a day. If it mimicks ich at all, it'll take a few weeks at that temp.


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## lilcountrygal (Dec 27, 2011)

any updates?


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

BN Pleco is the sole survivor, the death tank has been bleached...


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)




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## beachtan (Sep 25, 2008)

so sorry 

you mentioned "office" - you dont have some loser at work that would put something in your prized tank, do you? Those symptoms really seemed like external poisoning... cuz with same water going into the fry tank, it had to get in there some other way... Do you have any office cleaners that come in at night that might have accidentally thought they were helping to wipe off the hood or something and sprayed near the top of the tank? I'm grasping at straws here...

I once had 3 tanks sitting in a row and people came in to spray for bugs -the only tank affected was my big oscar tank cuz I had an airpump sitting on the floor and it pumped the fumes right into the tank.  that sucked... miss those fish.


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

beachtan said:


> so sorry
> 
> you mentioned "office" - you dont have some loser at work that would put something in your prized tank, do you? Those symptoms really seemed like external poisoning... cuz with same water going into the fry tank, it had to get in there some other way... Do you have any office cleaners that come in at night that might have accidentally thought they were helping to wipe off the hood or something and sprayed near the top of the tank? I'm grasping at straws here...
> 
> I once had 3 tanks sitting in a row and people came in to spray for bugs -the only tank affected was my big oscar tank cuz I had an airpump sitting on the floor and it pumped the fumes right into the tank.  that sucked... miss those fish.


I love and appreciate the creativity and insight, however, the wife & I are self employed and work out of our house, 2 bedrooms on the lower level down a hallway are our dedicated offices - I have 4 tanks in mine .


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## lilcountrygal (Dec 27, 2011)

So sorry to hear this outcome!


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## EvvyThomas (May 14, 2012)

..


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