# Lwanda not eating



## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Hello,

About 2 weeks ago I added 1 juvenile of each, lwanda, ngara and yellow blaze to my all male 55g. There are now 13 peacock/haps in the tank with the juveniles being the smallest (not by much). Everybody seems to be doing fine with no aggression issues at all.

The problem I'm having is with the lwanda. At first he was eating the 1mm NLS sinking pellets just like everybody else however, about 3 days ago I noticed he was no longer interested in it. At feeding time pellets would float right by his mouth and he wouldn't even grab them. Thinking he might just be bored with the same old food, today I picked up some Omega One Cichlid flakes. He was definitely interested in trying those! He anxiously gathered as many as he could then held them in his mouth for a few seconds only to spit them right back out. I noticed several of the other larger fish doing the same so I thought I'd try soaking the flakes for a few minutes to soften up. Same thing. Lwanda grabs a flake or two then a few seconds later spits the mouthful out just to have another fish grab it from him.

Has anybody ever seen anything like this and if so, what is causing it? I don't think he is sick as he still appears to have an appetite. It just looks to me like he's a very picky eater :-?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Spitting food is a cause for concern. You mentioned other fish doing it as well? Is the Lwanda being reclusive? Any white/clear, threadlike feces?

Read up on Malawi bloat here on the site in the articles. Did you quarantine the new additions?


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

I did not quarantine new fish as I don't have an extra tank 

Nonetheless, Lwanda is not being reclusive and I haven't seen any of his feces for the last few days as he hasn't been eating much or anything at all. I did see a free floating, white, thread like object but assumed it really was a thread from the media bag of the brand new hob filter I just added yesterday. Can't say for sure what the object was.

I started to read the article on bloat and the symptom I think you're referring to is, "Spitting up FAMILIAR food." The familiar food would be the pellets which he isn't spitting but just stopped eating completely. The spitting is with the NEW, flake food. Like I said, others are doing the same with this new food. Nobody is refusing to eat pellets other than him.

I would like to give him another few days to see if anything changes. Is there a critical point beyond which if it actually is bloat I won't be able to save him?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Bloat can be brutal to deal with. First off you need a timeout/hospital tank; especially if going with an all male setup. Get some meds now (from the article) and be ready to dose the whole tank. Metro and Clout probably need to be ordered but Parasite Guard should be readily available. Be very observant of the tank, looking for symptoms. Look for any signs of bullying, white feces, hiding away behind equipment, or anything else the article mentions. If it were me, I'd most likely start dosing to be sure, but that's just from my experience with bloat.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Thanks Iggy.

The more I thought about it the more I agree with you. Since tomorrow is a holiday I shot down to the local PetSmart and picked up some API General Cure just before they closed. They didn't carry Clout but the API product contains Metronidazole so I think it should do the trick. Just to be safe, I've also decided to do the entire tank. Directions only recommend removing activated carbon so I'm assuming there's no danger in leaving mechanical (sponge filters) and biological (bio balls, ceramic rings, matrix) media in during treatment, right?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I believe you'll be fine with the media being unharmed. I have not used General Cure but have seen it recommended. Having metro in it is key. Good luck...


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Ok, I'm getting ready to do my initial 30-40% WC but am still undecided on whether to remove the biological filter. I've read mixed reviews in favor of both. Safest for the media is to remove it while safest for the fish is to leave in.

Has anybody treated with API General Cure and left the biological filter in? If so, any evidence of harm to beneficial bacteria (ie Ammonia or Nitrite spikes) during or shortly after the treatment?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Removing your media is a bad idea. Just monitor your water during treatment.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

I agree but would just feel alot better if somebody that's actually dosed with API General Cure confirmed that there is no risk of harming biological filter. Anybody?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

The last thing you want to do is treat fish in a tank that cannot process ammonia.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Change of plans...

Before adding the meds, I fed the tank with Med soaked pellets. Everybody appeared to eat just fine with the exception of the Lwanda (which I didn't expect to eat) and the Taiwan Reef that grabbed several mouth fulls but spit them back out. For now I will continue feeding the entire tank med soaked pellets and keep a close eye on the Taiwan Reef. The Lwanda has been moved to a 20 gallon plastic storage container and will be treated with the API General Cure in his own private hospital "tank". If the Taiwan Reef continues spitting out his food I will also add him to the treatment tank.

Given that I have $400+ worth of fish in my tank and the bio filter is only a few months old I thought this is a better option than dosing the entire tank and risking loosing my filtration. The "healthy fish" are being treated through direct ingestion of Metho in their food with minimal exposure to the bio filter. Will keep you posted but for now everything is looking good...


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Forgot to mention that I'm also gradually adding Salt to both the display and hospital tanks. Figure if you're going to treat you might as well treat all the way.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Good luck on the treatment.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

So roughly 24 hours into treatment and here's the update:

Lwanda appears to be doing the same as before in hospital tank. Sill not eating but otherwise looks fine. According to packaging, I supposed to add a second dosage of Common Cure 24 hours from now with a PWC just prior. Ammonia is currently reading .5 so I'm wondering if I should do PWC sooner???

Display tank is continuing to eat med soaked pellets. Taiwan reef still grabbing mouth full then spitting out but I believe I did see him eat a few pellets completely. Will continue monitoring for now.

Any feedback on Ammonia in hospital tank would be appreciated. Is .5ppm acceptable or do I need to change water now?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I would probably add Seachem Prime to detoxify the ammonia. It's effects last about 4 days. I don't know how long those meds last, but straight metro is around 8 hours. What filter is on the hospital? Could you borrow some media from the main tank. Maybe a rock or piece of decor from the main tank could help as well.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

no filter in hospital, just air stone and heater. Just added a piece of rock. Thanks for the idea.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Just added Prime. Will test again in 15 mins.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

It will still show the ammonia reading. Prime just detoxifies it. With your regular water changes just be sure to keep dosing prime. It's not ideal, but probably your best bet without a cycled filter


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Did PWC and added second dose of Common Cure today to Hospital tank. Lwanda appears the same but still isn't eating. According to package, fish should remain in water for 48 more hours at which time a PWC is recommended (I assume to remove any traces of medication) and treatment is completed.

My question is, if Lwanda still isn't eating after 48 hours what should I do? Do I return him to the display tank and hope he starts eating again or do I continue with treatment? Is it possible it's not bloat that's effecting his appetite and if so, what else can it be?

With regards to display tank, everybody appears to be doing well and eating the medicated food (including Taiwan Reef).


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

One more question... I am still trying to feed Lwanda the 1mm NLS pellets, is there a different food I should be using while treating?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Hold off on feeding him during a round of treatment.

As I said before, I'm not familiar with General Cure. 48 hours seems too short of a treatment. Let me see of I can get someone with more experience to help/chime in.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If you suspect bloat I'd treat with metronidazole.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Thanks DJ. API General Cure is 250 mg Metronidazole and 75 mg Praziquantel per packet. Been using one packet for the 10 gallon hospital tank and roughly 1/2 packet for soaking food. Sound right?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I am not familiar with it either. I dose metronidazole 2X daily for 4 days before even trying to feed. See below:

Day 1: I put 1.5 teaspoons of Metronidazole in the 75gallon tank at 9AM. I put 1.5 teaspoons of Metronidazole in the tank again at 5PM.

Day 2: I put 1.5 teaspoons of Metronidazole in the tank at 9AM. At 4 PM I did a 50% water change. At 5 PM I put 1.5 teaspoons of Metronidazole in the tank again.

Day 3: I put 1.5 teaspoons of Metronidazole in the tank at 9AM. At 4 PM I did another 50% water change. At 5 PM I treated the tank again with 1.5 teaspoons of Metronidazole.

Day 4: I put 1.5 teaspoons of Metronidazole in the tank at 9AM. At 4 PM I fed the fish and they all ate.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

2x daily at 250 mg each time?

Packaging calls for 250mg every 48 hours. Have stepped it up to daily and am on dosage #3. Will give it another couple days then try feeding again.

Do you do water changes prior to dosing?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Double dosing with metro is a more aggressive approach and was suggested by the supplier I bought it from. Since it's only effective in the water column for around 8 hours you dose again in the same day, and it's not harmful to the fish.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Double dosing Common Cure would be daily as packaging recommends every 48 hours. Not sure what Seachem recommends but 2x daily would be 4x the API suggested dosage. For now I'll try daily...


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

I'd continue the daily treatment of 250mg. Although it says every 48 hours, that's a smaller than recommended dosage of metro due to the included praziquantel which won't have any effect on bloat symptoms unless we're dealing with parasites other than what is believed to cause bloat. Discontinue the salt gradually through water changes prior to dosing and switch to epsom salt as per the bloat article linked below (add gradually as recommended in the article). Hold off on feeding for 4-5 days.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Thanks GTZ.

I will continue daily dosing. With regards to the salt, I am currently using API's Aquarium Salt. Is this the same as Epsom salt?


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Aquarium salt isn't the same as epsom salt, no. It's quite inexpensive and you can find it at any drug store.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Thanks, will pickup epsom salt today after work.

I tried feeding this morning (treatment #4) and there was quite a bit of interest but again just sampled a few pellets then spit them back out. The same happened with the flakes (just like before). I stumbled across this video, 



, in which the gentlemen mentions that his Lwanda won't eat anything except for krill. As I mentioned earlier, it almost looks like mine is just a picky eater. Is that possible? I was thinking about picking up some krill this afternoon and trying to feed him this evening. What do you guys think of that? Is it possible I'm treating him for bloat unnecessarily?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I thought you said he was eating pellets initially, right?


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## chopsteeks (Jul 23, 2013)

rarquile said:


> Thanks, will pickup epsom salt today after work.
> 
> I tried feeding this morning (treatment #4) and there was quite a bit of interest but again just sampled a few pellets then spit them back out. The same happened with the flakes (just like before). I stumbled across this video,
> 
> ...


When a fish has an appetite and has not eaten for several days, picky or not picky....it will eat pellets, flakes or krill.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Yes, he was eating pellets for the first week or two I had him and the person I bought him from claims he was eating a mix which included pellets.

He is going on almost 1 week of not eating so you'd think he'd be hungry enough to eat anything at this point. Will definitely continue treating and try feeding again tomorrow...


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## Timkat4867 (Jan 11, 2008)

I've never used API general cure, but In my opinion, I don't think that it would harm the media.

in regards to your ammonia problem, it will stress your fish more so I would do a partial water change until the ammonia is gone and monitor, and add some rock, sand or gravel to help like iggy said.

I had the same problem last week with one of my flametail peacocks. I noticed he wasn't eating and displaying the same behavior as your fish.
I moved him to a cycled hospital tank and treated with clout. I treated for three days. While im keeping him in the hospital tank for a few more days for safe measure, I would like to say that today is the third day that he has been eating regularly and displaying normal behavior.
With that said, I recommend clout as the best treatment for symptoms such as yours, if you can get your hands on some then


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## chopsteeks (Jul 23, 2013)

Also, prepare a 'garlic juice dip'.

Crush a piece of garlic, put in a small container then add some water. Let it sit for a few hours. Soak the pellet with a bit of this garlic water.

Fish loves the garlic taste.....


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

@Timkat - yes, I could see the ammonia was stressing him out so a few days ago I added a cycled sponge filter from display tank. Amazing how quickly he perked up.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Agree with a fish eating the pellets if he is hungry.

I find clout harsh and have only used it once. It permanently stains your silicone BTW.

I've used metronidazole a number of times with success.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

So, I tried feeding this evening... First with garlic soaked pellets which were tested once or twice, spit out and then ignored. Then, I tried frozen krill. The krill was a bit more interesting with him trying and spitting it out a dozen or so times before giving up. I've left the uneaten krill at the bottom of the tank for just to see if he comes back to it but this is definitely not normal eating behavior for any cichlid.

My plan is to proceed with treatment #5 in the morning and probably try feeding again in the evening. I did not get a chance to pickup epsom salt today so for the time being he is still bathing in API aquarium salt.

Any suggestions or tips?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Just keep treating and doing water changes. Unless he shows some sort of improvement, hold off on feeding for a couple days. He will not starve. At this point, I'd buy some metro online to have ready if this General Cure doesn't pan out.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

That's the plan Iggy. Just not sure what kind of improvement I'm waiting for... He appears fine other than not wanting to eat. He's active, aware and even interested in trying food but nothing goes down.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You want him to eat voraciously, that's normal.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

I just dropped 3 pellets into tank. He came racing as fast as he could, grabbed all 3 then 2 seconds later spit them back out. Aside from the spitting, all his other behavior is normal. Very confusing...


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

That's bloat behavior. When he spits he is sick.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Ok, treatment #6 scheduled for tomorrow morning...


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## Timkat4867 (Jan 11, 2008)

Seems like your treatment is making progress. I noticed my fish went from barely interested in food to racing to it, gulping it then spitting it out, then gradually gulping down everything he sees. Keep up the treatment. Curious, are you removing the uneaten food daily?

DJ Ransome - you say clout is harsh, in what way? Health wise to the fish, or just the aquarium silicone? I had forgotten about it staining properties. I guess that's the benefits of a spare hospital tank. Funny though my silicone hasn't turned blue. Maybe I'm one of the few exceptions.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Yes Timkat, I'm removing the uneaten food within 5 minutes.

Do you recall how many days of treatment before yours stopped spitting? Also, did you use API Common Cure or straight Metron?


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## Timkat4867 (Jan 11, 2008)

I used clout. I think it was after 4 days he stopped spitting and ate pellets.


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## Timkat4867 (Jan 11, 2008)

I normally use metro, however my local fish store doesn't carry it any longer. So I ordered clout online and it worked.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Treatment #6 administered and still not eating...

Question, when he does start eating again will he be back to normal behavior (eat as much food as he's given) or will he have to ease back into it by eating small amounts and leaving the rest uneated?


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## Timkat4867 (Jan 11, 2008)

In my opinion, there's no hard fast rule as to when a fish begins to display normal eating behavior. I guess that depends on a variety of factors, age, size, how badly affected.
What factors worked for me was I acted quickly as soon as I saw the symptoms, treated meds regularly, and didn't feed at all. I also didn't have a light on which allows the fish to feel a bit more comfortable, also some hiding places. 
The best thing i guess is to be patient, and consistent with the meds. As long as he has no signs of stress he should get better.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Timkat4867 said:


> DJ Ransome - you say clout is harsh, in what way? Health wise to the fish, or just the aquarium silicone? I had forgotten about it staining properties. I guess that's the benefits of a spare hospital tank. Funny though my silicone hasn't turned blue. Maybe I'm one of the few exceptions.


It's a strong medicine...even illegal in some parts of the world. The silicone stain is pale blue...if you don't have an unstained tank nearby you might not notice.

Regarding the treatment, you are still using package amounts and frequency. You could always try the higher dosage.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Treatment #7 administered and still no eating. Will continue treatment :-?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Did you order Metro?


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## chopsteeks (Jul 23, 2013)

When I treat bloat, I always give a day or two of 'rest' period between treatments. We do water changes to improve the water quality caused by medication.

Also, Metro is a very bitter medicine. Fish does not like this bitter taste. I was advised by a reputable online fish dealer to sprinkle garlic powder to any fish food I treat with Metro to counteract this unpleasant bitter taste.

Seems to me that the fish had attempted to eat.....but still spits it out. Is it possible that the bitter taste of Metro is causing this ?

Just trying to help ...


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Picked up some Seachem Metro at LFS today and will use to continue daily treatment (treatment #8 scheduled for this evening). Will also continue 30-40% water changes just prior to treatment and will give the garlic soaked pellets another shot. :thumb:


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Good luck!


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Treatment #8 (Seachem Metro) last night. Still not eating this morning...


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## gverde (Mar 3, 2010)

Sometimes it may take two weeks or more of treatment for the fish to start eating. Keep up the 2X metro treatment morning and evening with 30-50% water changes in between treatments. Good Luck.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Treatment #9 last night and this morning I fed some frozen krill. It appeared as though he ate 2 or 3 pieces without spitting back out. I then tried a few pellets and he wouldn't even try them. Finally, I fed a little more krill and he grabbed then spit back out.

Does this sound normal behavior for bloat recovery?


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

So, I left the uneaten food in the tank a little longer than normal because he was still playing with the krill. For a good ten minutes he went around grabbing pieces, chewing on them and spitting out the smaller, chewed up pieces. He eventually ate most of the smaller pieces of krill but still wouldn't touch the pellets. During this time I also did see him flash (rub his body) against the bottom of the tank 2 or 3 times. I haven't seen him do that in the 10 days he's been in there.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Looks like he finished all uneaten krill and left only the pellets. I just tried some flakes and looks like that is a go too :thumb:

From what I understand, the pellets (NLS) are the target staple food. Any suggestions on how to get him to eat those? Also, how much longer should I continue dosing Metro? Was planning on treatment #10 tonight and again feeding in the morning...


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Glad he started eating for you.

I would do the tenth treatment and then monitor his health for at least a week, making sure he is eating properly. Any setbacks crop up then start another round.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Hardly ate this morning after treatment #10 last night. Ate a bit more this evening (flakes but no pellets). Still not normal cichlid feeding behavior but getting better, slowly...

Just did PWC and treatment #11. Will probably continue routine for another day or so and keep in hospital tank until appetite is back to 100% and he's eating pellets again.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Is the food medicated? If he's eating at all, definitely add metro to it to get the meds inside him, whether it's flake, pellets, etc.
Dosages are in the bloat article.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Eating garlic soaked pellets :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Awesome! Way to stick with it.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

If you're soaking with garlic you may as well add some metro as well. It's far more beneficial internally than in the water. Good job bringing this fish around. :thumb:


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Yes, been soaking in Metro and garlic.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Now aggressively eating NLS pellets, no soaking required. Thinking about returning to display tank this weekend...


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Hope he takes the transition well. Maybe try 'lights out' for a day or two to help him settle in.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Yes, was wondering about the transition. Thought this might be a good time to pickup a new fish and add both together but then again, without quarantining the newbie I'd be risking introducing disease to main tank again. Aside from my Dragon blood who only targets one of my O/B Peacocks,there really is no aggression in the tank but adding a new fish in the mix always changes things.


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## chopsteeks (Jul 23, 2013)

rarquile said:


> Yes, was wondering about the transition. Thought this might be a good time to pickup a new fish and add both together but then again, without quarantining the newbie I'd be risking introducing disease to main tank again. Aside from my Dragon blood who only targets one of my O/B Peacocks,there really is no aggression in the tank but adding a new fish in the mix always changes things.


When you decide to acquire a new fish, feed the tank with food soaked in metro and garlic for a week or so.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

When adding new fish think in terms of adding 6 new ones to spread aggression. I'd quarantine any new fish 3 weeks before adding rather than medicate an otherwise healthy tank.


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## rarquile (Oct 22, 2013)

Back in tank and eating with everybody else. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Sweetness


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## gverde (Mar 3, 2010)

Great!


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