# Give me some hope please.....



## Gillibeanz (Jul 2, 2008)

All you German blue Ram owners please give me some hope. My pair have spawned for the 6th time now and eaten the eggs. I dont have the facilities to remove them. I was just wondering how many of you have a pair that have finally successfully hatched some after a lot of tries, and how may unsuccessful times it took them?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I don't have any of the GBR's, but I have alot of Bolivians, and have the same problems with some of them.

Are you 100% certain that you have both a male and female? (I'm horrible at sexing rams, so I certainly couldn't tell you for sure!) Females will "go through the motions" as if they are a pair, but since the eggs aren't actually fertilized, they will eat them.


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## Gillibeanz (Jul 2, 2008)

Yep despite all the articles on sexing them and being convinced I had 2 females the last lot of eggs got laid where where I could see a pair of eyes in some of them.

My identical pair of rams - although its not a good pic of the both of them both have exactly the same length spikes too!


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Your vision must be better than mine!

The first time my rams spawned, I thought it was dust in the water when they became free swimming! :lol:

Never even saw the eggs! And had to get a friend to come over with a SLR camera to take pics of the fry so I could see what they looked like!

Very nice looking GBRs, by the way...

Wish I could be of more help!


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

That's not a great photo to tell the gender on but those look like two females from what I can see.

If they are as identical as you mention, then that backs up my hunch.


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## Gillibeanz (Jul 2, 2008)

Luckily the last time they laid it was right up close to the end of the glass so I could see all!! Also used a magnifying glass for extra help!

Nope they must be a pair - NOT 2 females as my eggs definitely had 2 pairs of tiny black eyes! Just goes to show all the info on sexing is useless! :roll:


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Gillibeanz said:


> Just goes to show all the info on sexing is useless! :roll:


How many days after the eggs were laid was it when you think you saw eyes?

Although I can see the eyes when GBR eggs have developed some, I would not be describing the eyed up eggs in the way you are. So that returns me to another possibility... that you do have two girls and the part you were mistaken on was the eyed up eggs. It deserves exploring at the very least. We can all make mistakes.


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## Gillibeanz (Jul 2, 2008)

about 48 hours after they were laid. they went a kind of more see through colour and you could see dark specks in them - like this picture:-

http://groups.msn.com/LyreTailsAquarium ... hotoID=528


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

The first Ram in the photos could be a feminine looking male. I don't see any blue spangles in the spot, so that is at least somewhat of a useful indicator (as of course eyed up eggs would be :lol: )

So now we head to the male and female eating fertile eggs... 
what else is in the tank? Any algae eaters or snails?

If there are no stressors, then you might just have an egg eater... a bad parent. Sometimes these fish never correct their bad behavior... e.g. perhaps a fish has an instinct to eat all eggs at any sight of a fungus spreading throughout the eggs... in the wild, this might not be a big deal but in a tank, this isn't useful. Hope that helps!


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Those eggs were definitely fertilized. The white once aren't and get fungus and will be removed by the parents. Sometimes it takes quit a lot of spawning before the parent's have learned how to deal with the eggs and wigglers. It took my Bolivians over 10 spawns to get it right. The same for my apisto's! Thats the problem with artificially raised fish,....they never learned how to raise fry from their parents. It might take a couple of more spawns but there is also a possibility they will be eating the eggs all the time. If they still don't get it right after 15 spawns you might want to raise them artificial.


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## Gillibeanz (Jul 2, 2008)

I have snails in the tank but it was the parents that did the eating I saw them do it! On previous spawns the eggs disappeared gradually over the course of 3 days, but on the last spawn the male was eating them as the female laid even though she was telling him off - he wasnt even bothering to fertilize them like before when I watched them. They kept getting interrupted by my dwarf gourami so I guess maybe because they were stressed so thats why it happened.

So although i know mine are male and female because of the eggs eyes - you say 2 females would go through the motions as a breeding pair - does that mean that one would actually simulate fertilizing the eggs wheile the other laid?? If so how bizare!

Thank you dutch dude you have given me fresh hope! :thumb:

My Rams - Male front female behind


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## Scatocephalus (Mar 26, 2003)

Gillibeanz said:


> Yep despite all the articles on sexing them and being convinced I had 2 females the last lot of eggs got laid where where I could see a pair of eyes in some of them.
> 
> My identical pair of rams - although its not a good pic of the both of them both have exactly the same length spikes too!


Something to consider. Many large breeders use hormones to get young rams to color up. Even when mature, rams are only colorful when happy and that usually means blah fish in your dealer's tanks. In an attempt to drive sales they artificially color the young fish so that they sell better. The downside is that the hormone used is a male hormone and it causes females to take on secondary male characteristics making them very difficult to accurately sex. Typically, once the hormone treatments stop the fish start to revert back to their natural state however, females can retain some of the male traits they developed.


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## IN2_Rams (Jun 11, 2008)

Don't mean to interject here, but are you sure they are "eating" the eggs? I've seen Bolivians take them into their mouths to defend them from a perceived threat. I trust Dutch Dude for all my BR advise, though........


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Mine (Bolivians) did eat the eggs around the time they should have hatched. The parents often crack the shell of the egg but some in-experienced Bolivians might eat the eggs in stead. It took quit some spawning for them to learn the trick but now they are doing OK.

The problem with domesticated fish is that most of them get artificially raised by the breeder so the fish never learn the brood care from their parents which leads to this type of problems.


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## Gillibeanz (Jul 2, 2008)

Yep they were eating them alright - and enjoying them the little buggers!!


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