# YADIYCFB: Yet Another DIY Canister Filter Build



## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

This thread is to document my attempt at building a DIY canister filter using a 5 gallon bucket and a Gamma Seal screw-on lid.

A few notes about the overall design/specs/application and what I'm going to try and do:

This filter is going onto a 55 gallon tank in our living room which is currently setup, and has been running and occupied for about a year now. The tank has a reverse-flow undergravel filter that I cobbled together which utilizes the original Pefecto filter plates and is driven by an old Marineland Magnum 330 canister filter. It also has a Marineland Magnum 200 filter that I use for polishing that is not hooked up to the RFUGF.

The downside to the Magnums are their limited capacity for any sort of media ... as well as their limited flow.

The pump I'll be using is Lifegard Aquatics Quiet One Pro 4000. It's nominally a 1022 gph pump and I'll be running it with about 3' or 4' of head, so best case is probably around 600 or 700 gph ... plus whatever losses there are from the plumbing. The inlet and outlet on this pump are 1" MPT.

If I can overcome any logistical hurdles that may present themselves, the filter will flow from the bottom (inlet) up to the top (outlet) ... idea being that crud will settle to the bottom of the bucket.

Adding an additional outlet/valve on the side of the bucket near the bottom will facilitate back-flushing the filter without having to disconnect it from the system. And it could be used to drain the bucket and the lines, once they have been isolated from the intakes and return, via the shutoff valves.

The two in-tank intakes will be thin-wall 3/4" PVC (SDR-21, 0.93" ID) and these will come down to just below the tank and join into a 1" PVC tee at the middle and from there to 1" PVC ball valve, then a 1" union, then another 1" PVC ball valve, and then finally into the side of the filter bucket, near the bottom.

The outlet from the filter will start on the side near the top, join to a 1" PVC ball valve right on the outside of the bucket, followed by a 1" PVC union, followed by the pump, followed by a 3/4" union, followed by a 3/4" PVC ball valve, and then hard plumbed using thin-wall 3/4" PVC back to a manifold in the tank that ties the two UGF plates together at four points.

The pump - since it will likely be the source of most vibration and noise - will be isolated from the hard lines on both sides using hose/tubing. I originally was planning to use silicone rubber tubing since it is extremely soft and flexible ... and therefore less likely to transmit noise/vibration. It also tends not to stiffen up over time like cheap pvc does. Unfortunately, the psi rating on most silicone hose is pretty low (under 10 psi) ... so I may go with something else ...

The hose will upsized by one size on the inlet and outlet sides of the pump ... to accommodate the additional restriction using hose barbs place on the flow path. IOW: the intake side of the pump will use 1 1/4" hose barbs and hose, and the output side will use 1" hose barbs and hose.

Pics to follow over the coming days.

Thanks to Pdxmonkeyboy for posting some details on his build and the link to diy king's Youtube's on the concept ... :thumb:


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Krylon Fusion (in black) comes in three finishes (gloss, satin, and flat)

In terms of immersed use in a tank, does anyone have any thoughts as to which would be the most durable ? ... the most likely to blend in an unobtrusive manner ?


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

I just use the flat black for plumbing purposes. Prepping the PVC surface prior to painting and following recoat instructions seems to help with adhesion. However, if you need to scrub the painted parts later on to remove gunk, some paint will come off.


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

Do not hard plumb all of the plumbing., leave some hose going to and from the tank so you have some flexibility when in maintenance mode.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Deeda said:


> I just use the flat black for plumbing purposes.


I suspected that flat might be best for appearances sake and was actually the direction I was leaning.



Deeda said:


> Prepping the PVC surface prior to painting and following recoat instructions seems to help with adhesion.


I'll scratch it up with some sandpaper ... :thumb:



Deeda said:


> However, if you need to scrub the painted parts later on to remove gunk, some paint will come off.


The only parts that I'll likely be scrubbing would be the insides of the pipes, which of course won't be painted ... 

Thanks ... :thumb:


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Cyphound said:


> Do not hard plumb all of the plumbing., leave some hose going to and from the tank so you have some flexibility when in maintenance mode.


Yup ... that's the plan ... :thumb:

Pump came in today so I'll start trying to piece things together for measurements so I can cut the rest of the hard pipe.

Still have a few more things to pick ... like some fittings ... and the hose ...


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## Pdxmonkeyboy (Oct 17, 2016)

if your going to use the gamma lid it's going to shoot water everywhere when you turn it on!! You can't use a gamma lid with a powered inlet.

But, by all means please proceed. I would love to be proven wrong as these filters work great but the gamma lids are the weak point for sure. Maybe I just got two bad ones?


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> if your going to use the gamma lid it's going to shoot water everywhere when you turn it on!! You can't use a gamma lid with a powered inlet.
> ...


I'm not going to use a powered inlet ... the pump is on the outlet/return line coming from the filter and goes back to the tank.


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## Pdxmonkeyboy (Oct 17, 2016)

ok cool. you had stated
"if I can overcome any logistical hurdles that may present themselves, the filter will flow from the bottom (inlet) up to the top (outlet) ... idea being that crud will settle to the bottom of the bucket"

so I thought ohh dear, his is going to blast water into the bucket.

post some pics when it's done


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> ok cool. you had stated
> "if I can overcome any logistical hurdles that may present themselves, the filter will flow from the bottom (inlet) up to the top (outlet) ... idea being that crud will settle to the bottom of the bucket"
> 
> so I thought ohh dear, his is going to blast water into the bucket.


Yeah ... sorry about that ... I probably didn't make it as clear as I should have.

I think I've pretty much resolved any logistical hurdles, in terms of the flow path (in at the bottom, out at the top) ... the only thing I'm trying to resolve at this point is a good way of mounting the pump at, or above, the outlet of the filter, to minimize the head height the pump is dealing with.

On another note, I tried contacting Gamma Seal about the size o-ring they use on their lids ... emailed them first and as of now I have not received a reply.

Then followed that with a phone call and got a recorded message and pressed whatever menu number for "Customer Service" (basically a joke) ... and was told that I should go to their website for customer support and replacement parts. Then the call automatically hangs up.

The website lists pretty much zip for "customer support" ... other than a short blurb on how to open the lid, where they are trying to be funny. And it lists absolutely nothing on replacement parts that I could find.

While I appreciate that they do manufacture what is essentially a commodity item, and likely one with a fairly low margin, which would make much in the way of customer support a losing proposition, to say that you offer something when you actually don't is misleading ... which sorta ticks me off.

The head honcho of the company is a guy named Curtis Leland ... might try getting ahold of him and seeing if he is willing to be of assistance.



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> post some pics when it's done


Will do ... :thumb:


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Possible solution for leaky Gamma Seal lids and the additional downside of having a 5 gallon bucket that isn't really designed to be pressurized or run under a vacuum:

_Use a strainer housing for a swimming pool pump._

These are manufactured by a variety of companies, Hayward and Pentair being two well-regarded companies in the pool filtration business. Grainger also sells them under their "Dayton" brand (pricey though)

I'm sure other companies make them as well.

*Pros:*

Relatively cheap - a complete (housing, basket, and lid) Hayward SP1516 can be had new off Amazon and elsewhere for around $40 or under ... about 3.5 - 4x the cost of 5 gallon bucket and Gamma Seal lid ... but it probably ain't gonna leak.

Comes standard with MP and/or FP threaded inlet and outlet built into the housing.

The mesh basket can serve as a media container, and often includes a fold-down handle to that it can be easily removed for servicing.

The (screw-on) lids on these units are usually clear (often polycarbonate) which allows for a visual inspection of what's in there - assuming that it is located where you can look down into it - are sealed with an o-ring, and many have an integrated handle built in, which aids installation and removal.

Many have a drain plug near the bottom of the housing (likely so they can be winterized in the northern climes)

Not all that tall (easily fit under a cabinet/stand)

Could be daisy-chained for different media types

*Cons:*

Somewhat limited capacity as compared to a 5 gallon bucket ... although depending on how you configure the 5 gallon bucket, it may not be all that great a difference.

*Additional info:*

The cost the units seem to be directly proportional to the size inlet/outlet provided on the housing.

IOW: the smaller units - typically 1 1/2" inlet/outlet might be as little as half the cost of say a 2" strainer ... although the strainer housing itself may be the same size (or very near it)


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

BTW - the housing on the above unit is ABS.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Quick cost comparison:

Black 5 gallon bucket (Home Depot) - $4.98

Gamma Seal lid (Home Depot) - $7.25

Two 1" Uniseals (or McMaster-Carr's version of them) - $6.68

Total of the above: $18.91, not including sales tax (add another $1.40)

So roughly 50% of the cost ... for a container that is questionable as to whether it can be be sealed, and isn't really designed to work under pressure or a vacuum.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Another upside:

Unit really doesn't have to be disconnected from the plumbing to be cleaned/serviced - just isolated with valves on the inlet and outlet.


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## Pdxmonkeyboy (Oct 17, 2016)

I'm still.looking for suitable... more tightly sealed buckets.

But again, the water has to go IN the top and PUT the bottom. How else would you service the filter with all the sponge filter and floss on the bottom?

The bigger issue is that if you pump water IN to the bucket it will spray water out the lid. That's ok though, some things you just have to find out for yourself.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> I'm still.looking for suitable... more tightly sealed buckets.


Good luck ... as you'll likely need it 

What you really need to find - if you want something that is going to hold up long-term - is the following:

1. A container made of fairly hard plastic (ABS, PVC, FRP, etc.)

There's a reason why filter manufacturers use such plastics for filters - the material is capable of standing up to the stress that is placed on the container as a result of the repeated flexing which occurs due to being pressurized or under a vacuum.

2. A container with a removable lid that is also air/water tight.

The question one needs to ask in order to locate such a thing is:

_Where would such a thing be used ? ... where does it fill a need ?_

Then, of course, there's the matter of _"Is this economical ?"_ ... which is a major point of doing it, rather than just buying a manufactured product.



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> But again, the water has to go IN the top and PUT the bottom.


Not really.

Simple siphon action - plus the suction of the pump - will allow water to enter at the bottom and go out through the top ... assuming that the canister is placed below the tank.



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> How else would you service the filter with all the sponge filter and floss on the bottom?


In sequence, from top to bottom:

1. Remove removable basket of bio-media.

2. Remove filter floss (if so equipped)

3. Remove sponge/foam filter pads

4. Clean all items and reassemble.

Alternative method:

1. Add an additional valve and drain near the bottom of the bucket.

2. Open valve mentioned in No. 1 and allow the action of the siphon to "back flush" the filter.

Admittedly, the alternative would likely not provide as thorough a cleaning as complete disassembly would ... but it might allow the filter to remain in service longer before it has to be completely disassembled and thoroughly cleaned.



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> The bigger issue is that if you pump water IN to the bucket it will spray water out the lid.


I dunno if I'd call it a "bigger issue" necessarily ... but it certainly is an additional issue.

Personally, I see the potential possibility that DIY home-brewed unit could rupture or crack in my living room - which has actual oak hardwood flooring and is over a fully-finished, carpeted room in the basement - as being kind of a big deal.



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> That's ok though, some things you just have to find out for yourself.


There are some things that I'm entirely willing to have others find out for me.

In that vein, there's a thread over at MFK in the DIY forum - where MFK contributor "arcatekt" - elaborates on his experiences with having a lid/bucket fracture/crack.

Luckily, it occurred while he was there and attempting to service the filter:

DIY canister using a 5gal bucket

At this point, to me personally, an actual sump is starting to look better and better all the time ... with a number of advantages over a canister.

I already have the pump, egg crate, Porfet foam, and a brand new 20L tank.

Everything that I have done thus far plumbing-wise, can easily be repurposed to the sump.

Any un-needed items bought for the canister - save for the 5 gallon black bucket which I removed the sticker from - can be returned for credit. And I can always use another 5 gallon bucket.

The only downside is the time involved in the research/learning curve to scope out what's involved in rolling my own sump. And probably a little more time involved as opposed to just building a canister filter.


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## Pdxmonkeyboy (Oct 17, 2016)

if you have room for a sump than that is definately the way to go. building simps is child's play if you have a table saw. I think it took me about 40 minutes to build my 40 gallon sump? Took longer to drive and get the acrylic. be forewarned though.. building with cast acrylic is highly addictive!!!

I build a 90 gallon tank one week, enjoyed it so much I built one for a friend the following week and now I am thinking about breeding out some tangerine tigers.. so hmmm how about 4 20 gallon grow out tanks on a rack with a single sump and return...

but seriously... a 1/2" 90 gallon and a 40 gallon sump for $300 and enough acrylic left over to make lids, test kits, etc. it's pretty fun


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> if you have room for a sump than that is definately the way to go.


My 20L tank is 12 3/4" tall ... the opening under the top tank on the current stand is 19" tall ... so it's a little tight for servicing, but I think it could work.



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> building simps is child's play if you have a table saw.


I do ... even has extendable wings on the table to make cutting large sheet goods easier ... :wink:



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> I think it took me about 40 minutes to build my 40 gallon sump? Took longer to drive and get the acrylic. be forewarned though.. building with cast acrylic is highly addictive!!!


I can imagine that it might be.



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> I build a 90 gallon tank one week, enjoyed it so much I built one for a friend the following week and now I am thinking about breeding out some tangerine tigers.. so hmmm how about 4 20 gallon grow out tanks on a rack with a single sump and return...
> 
> but seriously... a 1/2" 90 gallon and a 40 gallon sump for $300 and enough acrylic left over to make lids, test kits, etc. it's pretty fun


I'll bet.


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## Pdxmonkeyboy (Oct 17, 2016)

yeah that is plenty of room. I went with a fluidized bed so... no cleaning ever. the mechanical filtration is just a huge wad of filter floss between two filter sponges. I don't need a whole lot of room to grab the upper sponge and floss out.

if you have a local.plastic dealer they likely have all the pieces for sump dividers in there scrap bin. they sell that stuff cheap by the pound but they rarely weigh it.. they just say..ummm how about $5.


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## iamabug (Oct 14, 2013)

When I did my sump, I called the local plastic dealer. For an extra $10 they cut everything to size for me. I came home and silicone it all in place. 30mins. But I planned it out before and I don't have a table saw. I have 8" above my sump for maintance. Went fluid bed as well so I only change out my filter socks once a week. Super low maintance.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> yeah that is plenty of room. I went with a fluidized bed so... no cleaning ever.


What media in the fluid bed ?



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> the mechanical filtration is just a huge wad of filter floss between two filter sponges. I don't need a whole lot of room to grab the upper sponge and floss out.


What is the width of between the baffles where the mechanical filtration resides ?

You use a filter sock on the inlet pipe into the sump ?



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> if you have a local.plastic dealer they likely have all the pieces for sump dividers in there scrap bin. they sell that stuff cheap by the pound but they rarely weigh it.. they just say..ummm how about $5.


Yup ... have a local place ... it's a branch office of a large national distributor (Piedmont Plastics) ... probably 30 locations across the US.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

iamabug said:


> When I did my sump, I called the local plastic dealer. For an extra $10 they cut everything to size for me.


Worth it I'm sure.



iamabug said:


> I came home and silicone it all in place. 30mins. But I planned it out before and I don't have a table saw.


Yeah, my table saw is out in the garage right now ... need to move it down in the basement, where it's at least somewhat warm ... 



iamabug said:


> I have 8" above my sump for maintance.


Mo' better ... :thumb:



iamabug said:


> Went fluid bed as well so I only change out my filter socks once a week. Super low maintance.


Sand as the media in the fluid bed IIRC ?


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

iamabug said:


> .... I came home and silicone it all in place.


Did you join the acrylic using a proper solvent based "glue" or actually use silicon?


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

daviddj said:


> iamabug said:
> 
> 
> > .... I came home and silicone it all in place.
> ...


I think he's siliconing acrylic baffles into a glass tank that is being used as the sump.


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

wryan said:


> daviddj said:
> 
> 
> > iamabug said:
> ...


Ah OK. I have been making acrylic sumps, reservoirs and boxes for over ten years and the original ones are still watertight. Originally, after solvent welding I used to "seal" the corners inside with silcone but eventually it just pulls /falls away. Now I never bother. For placing baffles I use plastic shower door seal as it allows me to remove the baffle or resize the compartment.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

daviddj said:


> Ah OK. I have been making acrylic sumps, reservoirs and boxes for over ten years and the original ones are still watertight. Originally, after solvent welding I used to "seal" the corners inside with silcone but eventually it just pulls /falls away. Now I never bother.


Yup ... long-term, adhesion of the silicone (to the acrylic) would seem to a potential issue.



daviddj said:


> For placing baffles I use plastic shower door seal as it allows me to remove the baffle or resize the compartment.


That's an innovative approach ... seems like it would work good on baffles that do not come all the way down to the floor of the tank.

What do you do about preventing bypass on those baffles that do come all the way down to the floor of the tank that are intended to act as a weir though ?

And where do you source the seals that you are using ?


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

There will be a tiny amount of bypass depending on how carefully you cut the seals, but it makes little difference in the general scheme of things. The only baffle that really needs to be watertight is one that is setting a water level, maybe after a skimmer or before the return pump where the level in that chamber is used to control an automatic top up device. It's also a handy way to temporarily divide a tank for separating fish etc. I get the seal in bathroom or DIY shops. It's just for putting on the edge of shower doors, heres one on amazon https://www.amazon.com/DS102-glass-...=1482338984&sr=1-29&keywords=shower+door+seal. Just cut your baffles a little narrower (how much depends on seal dimension) and squeeze into place.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

daviddj said:


> There will be a tiny amount of bypass depending on how carefully you cut the seals, but it makes little difference in the general scheme of things. The only baffle that really needs to be watertight is one that is setting a water level, maybe after a skimmer or before the return pump where the level in that chamber is used to control an automatic top up device. It's also a handy way to temporarily divide a tank for separating fish etc.


Fair enough ... :thumb:



daviddj said:


> I get the seal in bathroom or DIY shops. It's just for putting on the edge of shower doors, heres one on amazon https://www.amazon.com/DS102-glass-...=1482338984&sr=1-29&keywords=shower+door+seal. Just cut your baffles a little narrower (how much depends on seal dimension) and squeeze into place.


I just noticed your location ... oops ! 

I'm sure I can find something locally.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

OK ... so I've got a 20L tank to use.

The dimensions are (roughly) 30" (L) x 12" (W/D) x 12 1/2" (T)

How do I section it up ?

I figure the first chamber needs to probably 5" wide to accomodate a piece of acrylic to hold a 4" filter sock.

After that, for the second chamber, I've got two pieces of 13" x 13" Porfet foam (one 10 ppi, one 30 ppi) ... slice and dice 'em in half and stack ? ... or just trim and orient them vertically on edge ?


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Slight change in plans ... the 20L, which new and therefore in good condition (visually) is going to get repurposed for an eventual "cookie cutter" Tanganyikan set up. Mebbe more sooner than later.

So the other resource for a sump is the other (presently unused) 55 gallon. Seems that might be it's best use at this point: it's old, has some scratches on the glass and etching from mineral deposits and isn't really all that appealing visually. It needs a center brace installed, which I have the glass for and the new top frame siliconed in place. Doesn't leak though.

This will require a new stand for both 55's (DT and sump) as the present stand the DT is on doesn't have enough clearance for adequate working room between the bottom of the top frame and the top of the lower tank. A 33L would have worked due to it's lower height, but alas none in inventory at the moment.

Upsides are a lot more water volume for the system, and certainly no lack of room for media.

Downsides are it will require some investigation of the flooring in the room and might even require relocation to another room against an outside load bearing wall.

If it does get moved to the other room, that opens up the possibilities for a water source and drain in close proximity to the tanks ... might even be able to cook up a CAWC system ...


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## Pdxmonkeyboy (Oct 17, 2016)

Honestly, if you have that plastic Supply nearby I would just glue up an acrylic sump that will fit. 20 gallons is not the big.. probably too small. the problem is that when you shut the pump off, you need enough capacity to store all the water that will flow down the overflow (the pump side is always fitted with a check valve).

anyways.. both of my diy sumps are 4" wide compartment with sponge filter and filter floss, then a 12" or so compartment with k1 fluidized media, then another 2-3" section of floss that acts as a bubble wall.

the fluidized k1 is awesome because it never ever never ever needs to be cleaned. For starting other tasks, just having lots of media around if I have to medicate.. whatever.. I also keep about 8 bags of ceramic rings in the last section. with the pump. (along with my heaters, dosing outputs, and water quality probes.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Pdxmonkeyboy,

Thanks for the input ... :thumb:



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> Honestly, if you have that plastic Supply nearby I would just glue up an acrylic sump that will fit.


Probably not going to happen ... but I might explore it further ... 



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> 20 gallons is not the big.. probably too small.


It was maybe a little smaller than I'd like ... but it's largely moot at this point: the 20L will be set up as a Tanganyikan tank for the Julidochromis.

Ideally, an Aqueon 30g tank would probably be best ... 1/3 more capacity than a 20g, and length-wise has a slightly smaller foot print than the 55G (less issues in terms of stand design) and is lower (by 4 1/4") ... which means that the ultimate height of the DT it's servicing won't have to be raised too far from the ideal viewing height.

Currently I'm considering the logistics of stacking the 55's and using the bottom one as a sump.



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> the problem is that when you shut the pump off, you need enough capacity to store all the water that will flow down the overflow


The backflow from the intakes return can be handled by very carefully limiting the depth of the intakes, so as to control the maximum amount of water that can be siphoned ... as well as drilling a couple of holes for a siphon break near the surface in the tubes, if need be. Same deal with the siphon breaks on the return.

Having the intakes high in the tank would (in theory) make some sense - in that the return flow comes from the bottom of the tank, being fed through a pair of under gravel filter plates.

And of course, in terms of shutting things down and servicing the sump, there's always the valves on the intake and returns.



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> (the pump side is always fitted with a check valve).


Dunno ... from what I've read, I'd have to say mebbe not ... there are lots of folks out there who appear very reluctant to rely on such devices ... since they can be prone to eventual failure. All it takes is a little bit of whatever (debris, film, a snail, etc.) to prevent them from fully closing.

I guess I'd say that having one probably couldn't hurt (assuming the system is designed and operated so that it will not flood if the check valve fails to close), unless it somehow restricts the flow on the return.



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> anyways.. both of my diy sumps are 4" wide compartment with sponge filter and filter floss, then a 12" or so compartment with k1 fluidized media, then another 2-3" section of floss that acts as a bubble wall.


This is all very good input ... :thumb:

A 4" wide compartment for the Porfet foam is probably the minimum I'd consider, from the standpoint of reaching down into it with my hands. I may well go with a 6 1/2" wide compartment ... that way I could simply split the two pieces of 13" x 13" Porfet that I have in half ... two 1" thick pieces of 10ppi foam stacked, then two 1" thick pieces of 30ppi foam stacked.

And mebbe some filter floss in there somewhere.

Did you go over-under-over ... or under-over-under on the bubble wall ?



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> the fluidized k1 is awesome because it never ever never ever needs to be cleaned.


I've been scoping out using K1 ... for the very reason you state above.

It appears to be pretty reasonable, price-wise ... but haven't been able to find any real info on it from the mfg.

Although I'm not really hurting as far as bio-media goes, with all the gravel that's in the DT ... :roll:



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> For starting other tasks, just having lots of media around if I have to medicate.. whatever..


Makes sense.



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> I also keep about 8 bags of ceramic rings in the last section. with the pump.


I'd probably use lava rock. Have lots of it ... just need to figure out how I'd contain it so it could easily be removed ... that's where some acrylic might be handy ... a custom-fit basket.



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> (along with my heaters, dosing outputs, and water quality probes.


I have a pair of (150w ?) Eheim Jager heaters and I think I'm probably going to place them in the first compartment in the sump ... since it will be the deepest ... along with the filter sock(s) ...


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## Pdxmonkeyboy (Oct 17, 2016)

if you already have a ton of lava rock just use that. just make sure it downstream of your mechanical filtration. I would make the water flow up through the bottom of it. you can use a small section of that light diffuser grid stuff on the bottom, then probably a laundry bag full of lava rock.

Although I like the idea of filter socks.. I have heard them getting clogged up and making a mess of things.

anyways, hope you are having a good Christmas.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> if you already have a ton of lava rock just use that. just make sure it downstream of your mechanical filtration.


Yup ... :wink:



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> I would *make the water flow up through the bottom* of it.


That's a really good idea ... noted ! :thumb:



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> you can use a small section of that light diffuser grid stuff on the bottom, then probably a laundry bag full of lava rock.


Right ... was cutting light diffuser grid last night ... 

Still need to do a little clean up on the edges with a file or die grinder.

You know those plastic mesh bags onions come in ?

Figured that's what I'd probably use ... they are plenty open for good flow, probably durable enough to fish out of the sump. Being made of plastic used for foodstuffs they should be safe enough.



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> Although I like the idea of filter socks.. I have heard them getting clogged up and making a mess of things.


Yeah ... I've been reading a little on reef forums about their use ... some use 'em, some don't (for various reasons)

Seems like the ones that are, are mostly pulling them every 3 to 4 days ... which is a little more often than I'd care to be doing it.

Dunno how well that translates over to FW tanks tho' ... but with the current 55g DT being planted there's always a good bit of stuff floating around in it. Having water flow coming up through the gravel probably contributes to it as well.

I need to jack up the turnover to get it looking a little cleaner.

Once a week would be fine ... every two weeks would be even nicer. Of course, the longer one leaves them in without swapping them out, the more they become a nitrate sink ... :roll:



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> anyways, hope you are having a good Christmas.


Thanks, we are ... 

Hope you and yours are as well.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

One of the issues I'm running into, is getting some decent info on baffle sizes, heights, and placement.

There are a veritable snotload of write-ups on various websites and forums ... they range from articles done by professionals, who likely have (or had) their own businesses servicing aquaria in commercial environments ... to DIY'ers taking a crack at doing a sump.

Some threads I've ran across were even entitled along the lines of _"Complete XX Gallon Sump Build, From Start To Finish"_ ... which then fail to even document the completion of the project ... let alone offer actual info which has practical usage in the real world.

You know, like: _"I set these baffles at this height because ... (X reason)" _

A lot of the info is pretty general ... as opposed to offering a real world example of an executed project - with actual measurements - that might be extrapolated to different size sumps.

Needless to say, separating the actual wheat from the chaff is a bit of a chore ... :roll:


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

wryan said:


> One of the issues I'm running into, is getting some decent info on baffle sizes, heights, and placement.


Here's my two cents. It is hard to give a one sump fits all plan as they are all so entirely different particularly if you are looking at saltwater forums. Different pumps, skimmers, overflows, sump setups, schools of thought, water levels and plumbing will all influence the design of the sump. Start with the last chamber where your return pump is. Size it so the pump fits comfortably without any restriction on the intake. It needs to be deep enough to prevent the pump sucking air down from the surface. You could think of this as your minimum height of the last baffle. Of course all your evaporation is going to act on this compartment causing the level to drop so you need to adjust the water level (and baffle height) to allow an auto top off to work or allow a days worth of evaporation to take place between manually topping it up. A continual water change setup would avoid this. The height of this baffle is the lowest level you can have in the sump. Does the "empty" volume give you enough room to accommodate the water that will flow into the sump in the case of a pump failure / power cut? Do your plumbing and calculations right and it should not be a problem but do not depend on non-return valves.

I found that bubble trap baffles were a waste of real estate and I would try your setup without before gluing them in. A piece of foam along the top of the last baffle can do the job if you find you have bubbles.

Size your other compartments according to your filtration preferences. Me, I like lots of biological media so would maximize the size of that one.

I'm not sure of the usefulness of filter bags in a freshwater sump where you also have foam or floss. Typically in a saltwater sump there will be very little mechanical filtration so they do have role to play if changed regularly. The concept of them acting as a nitrate sink in saltwater tanks is because they hold waste that breaks down to nitrates which may otherwise be removed by a skimmer. As there is no such waste removal in freshwater systems the waste will break down to nitrates regardless of whether you have filter bags. If you use them make sure to design with them overflowing in mind. It will happen.

Sumps are great fun to design and build but as soon as you have finished the first one you re on the second improved version in your head.


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## Pdxmonkeyboy (Oct 17, 2016)

well, I designed my freshwater sumps to have a large enough space to put unruly fish in there as a time out tank. I also aclimate new fish into the sump for a day or two beforectangles puthing them in the community.

There is no need for critical measurements really. I typically just make sure all the baffles end about an 1" below the top of the tank to ensure no spills if a clog occurs.

First decide is fluidized or some to her media. what are the dimensions of your sump?


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

David,

Thanks for insights ... good info ... :thumb:



daviddj said:


> Here's my two cents. It is hard to give a one sump fits all plan as they are all so entirely different particularly if you are looking at saltwater forums. Different pumps, skimmers, overflows, sump setups, schools of thought, water levels and plumbing will all influence the design of the sump.


Fair points all.



daviddj said:


> Start with the last chamber where your return pump is. Size it so the pump fits comfortably without any restriction on the intake. It needs to be deep enough to prevent the pump sucking air down from the surface. You could think of this as your minimum height of the last baffle.


Pump dimensions are 5" (L) x 4" (W) x 4" (T)

Probably should stick it in a bucket in the bathtub and see at what point it creates a vortex and starts sucking air ... don't imagine I'd want to go lower than 6" on the last baffle.



daviddj said:


> Of course all your evaporation is going to act on this compartment causing the level to drop so you need to adjust the water level (and baffle height) to allow an auto top off to work or allow a days worth of evaporation to take place between manually topping it up. A continual water change setup would avoid this. The height of this baffle is the lowest level you can have in the sump.


Good points ... :thumb:



daviddj said:


> Does the "empty" volume give you enough room to accommodate the water that will flow into the sump in the case of a pump failure / power cut? Do your plumbing and calculations right and it should not be a problem but do not depend on non-return valves.


Right.

I'd be more inclined to rely on water level switches in the DT to kill the power to the pump if high water there became a problem (although I'm sure such switches do stick) ... I've seen enough of what accumulates in the hoses for the canisters I'm currently running to trust a check valve much ... but like I said previously: assuming they don't restrict the flow, check valves probably don't hurt.



daviddj said:


> I found that bubble trap baffles were a waste of real estate and I would try your setup without before gluing them in. A piece of foam along the top of the last baffle can do the job if you find you have bubbles.


Yup ... scratch the bubble trap.



daviddj said:


> Size your other compartments according to your filtration preferences. Me, I like lots of biological media so would maximize the size of that one.


With the amount of gravel I have in the current 55g DT bio-media isn't really much of an issue ... but that could change as the time on the RFUGF accumulates and I potentially discover new issues.

Sticking a fluidized bed of K1 in the sump seems like it would be the way to go, in terms of performance and ease of maintainence ...



daviddj said:


> I'm not sure of the usefulness of filter bags in a freshwater sump where you also have foam or floss. *Typically in a saltwater sump there will be very little mechanical filtration* so they do have role to play if changed regularly. The concept of them acting as a nitrate sink in saltwater tanks is because they hold waste that breaks down to nitrates *which may otherwise be removed by a skimmer*.


Interesting.



daviddj said:


> As there is no such waste removal in freshwater systems the waste will break down to nitrates regardless of whether you have filter bags. If you use them make sure to design with them overflowing in mind. It will happen.


Will probably skip them in light of all the above, and just depend on foam/filter floss for the mechanical.

I don't want to unnecessarily complicate things ... since the a big reason for pursuing the sump idea is making the system E-A-S-Y to service.

And pulling a few foam blocks and squeezing them out in some tank water sure seems easier to me.



daviddj said:


> Sumps are great fun to design and build but as soon as you have finished the first one you re on the second improved version in your head.


I can imagine ...


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> well, I designed my freshwater sumps to have a large enough space to put unruly fish in there as a time out tank.


Having the ability to do that would be tremendously handy I would think.



Pdxmonkeyboy said:
 

> I also aclimate new fish into the sump for a day or two beforectangles puthing them in the community.


Sounds like a good practice to me ... eliminates multiple stressors all at the same time ... :thumb:



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> There is no need for critical measurements really. I typically just make sure all the baffles end about an 1" below the top of the tank to ensure no spills if a clog occurs.


I've enough (tank) depth in the sump that I could even go a little lower ...



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> First decide is fluidized or some to her media.


I think I'll be going the K1 route as you previously suggested ... eventually, if not immediately.

I just ordered a couple of liters of de-nitrate as well, so I'll incorporate that into the system in some manner. Might end up sticking it in the smaller Magnum after restricting it's flow to the spec for de-nitrate and see what it does.



Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> what are the dimensions of your sump?


48" (L) x 12" (W) x 21" (T)


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

wryan said:


> I'd be more inclined to rely on water level switches in the DT to kill the power to the pump if high water there became a problem (although I'm sure such switches do stick) ... I've seen enough of what accumulates in the hoses for the canisters I'm currently running to trust a check valve much ... but like I said previously: assuming they don't restrict the flow, check valves probably don't hurt.


Unless you have an auto top off fed from a limitless supply (the mains) overflowing the DT should not be possible. Your pump cannot empty the sump into the tank - only the last compartment will be emptied. Many (most?) pumps have a run dry feature that will automatically shut them off. It's an idea to hook your auto top off up to a reservoir containing a limited supply of water unless you have an emergency overflow in the DT. I used to use enough for 3 days or so, not to avoid the overflow possibility but to avoid dramatic changes in salinity if a float switch failed (they did - I always used 2 or 3 switches wired so that one sticking could not cause damage). If your'e close to a waste outlet the final compartment would be the place to plumb a drain standpipe set to the maximum level you want in that compartment. Then you could have a continuous water change with all excess water running away to waste. That is what I have and I set it so that (so far) Nitrate is always slightly reducing. In the last 4 weeks it has slowly gone from 20ish (after cycling) to 10 to currently less than 5. Whether that is achievable in the long term remains to be seen, but low nitrates, no messing with hoses or buckets, not a bad thing


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

daviddj said:


> Unless you have an auto top off fed from a limitless supply (the mains) overflowing the DT should not be possible. Your pump cannot empty the sump into the tank - only the last compartment will be emptied.


Good point ... I could go either way on it ... although if I am using a limited supply, then I'll have to resolve the issue of where do I locate the container of limited supply ... 



daviddj said:


> Many (most?) pumps have a run dry feature that will automatically shut them off. It's an idea to hook your auto top off up to a reservoir containing a limited supply of water unless you have an emergency overflow in the DT. I used to use enough for 3 days or so, not to avoid the overflow possibility but to avoid dramatic changes in salinity if a float switch failed (they did - I always used 2 or 3 switches wired so that one sticking could not cause damage).


Good to know ... redundancy is always good ... :thumb:



daviddj said:


> If your'e close to a waste outlet the final compartment would be the place to plumb a drain standpipe set to the maximum level you want in that compartment. Then you could have a continuous water change with all excess water running away to waste.


I'm considering locating tanks in light of easy access to waste plumbing and water sources ... there a number of options :wink: ... although ...

The living room - where I would like to have a large DT - is a bit of a problem in that regard, as well as another. It's a sunken living room and the room beneath it in the basement has a drywalled ceiling ... so it wouldn't be real easy to run any plumbing there ... at least without ripping out the drywall and replacing it.

Another complication is that the ceiling height in the room below (which is finished) is fairly low, on account of the living room being sunken ... wouldn't want to lower it any further (to accommodate slope for a drainage run)

And finally there's the issue of what the living floor will support ... the floor joists in the living room on the interior side I believe are just nailed into the supporting beam (three 2 x 10's ... with no metal hangers IIRC ... and not resting on top of the beam. That means that the fasteners (nails) - which would be in *shear* - are the only thing holding up the floor joists on the interior end. Probably fine for typical loads in a living room ... but mebbe not for a high amount of spot loading.

The (unsupported) span in the direction the joists run is 17'+ ... so setting up a large tank as a center piece in the middle of the room probably wouldn't be a good idea ... even if the ends of the joists were well tied in on the interior side.

On the exterior wall, I'm not real sure whether the joists rest on the top plate of the basement wall ... or whether they are just toe-nailed ... which would again mean the fasteners would be in shear. Need to see if I can dig up the construction drawings to verify or figure out a way to get a look on that wall without ripping up the drywall ceiling.

There's one spot in the room - a corner on the outside wall (7' long) - that could be workable, depending on how the floor joists are tied in. The rest of that wall is taken up by a large picture window (9 1/2' long) ... except for a 8 1/2' section on the other side which leads into the dining room.



daviddj said:


> That is what I have and I set it so that (so far) Nitrate is always slightly reducing. In the last 4 weeks it has slowly gone from 20ish (after cycling) to 10 to currently less than 5. Whether that is achievable in the long term remains to be seen, but low nitrates, *no messing with hoses or buckets, not a bad thing*


Yeah ... exactly ... :wink:


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

Lol, I wouldn't even think about commenting on joists and load bearing. But re plumbing for continuous water change, the turnover is so slow, for me maybe 1-2 Lph, that all that's needed is 1/4inch line for the supply and 1/2in braided hose takes care of the waste.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

daviddj said:


> Lol, I wouldn't even think about commenting on joists and load bearing.


Yeah ... commenting potentially carries some downsides ... 



daviddj said:


> But re plumbing for continuous water change, the turnover is so slow, for me maybe 1-2 Lph,


So that's roughly 6+ to 12+ gallons per day ... just out of curiosity, what size tank(s) ?



daviddj said:


> ... that all that's needed is 1/4inch line for the supply and 1/2in braided hose takes care of the waste.


I knew it wouldn't have to be all that big ... for me, the biggest thing will probably be coming up with an overflow that works.

I have no drilled tanks ... so ideally it would an over-the-rim design, with a self-starting siphon ...

Not sure if that's even possible ... more research ... :lol:


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

It's 5x2x2 holding about 450L after sand and rocks. I used one of those overflow boxes on a tank for about 5 years and despite all the warnings of doom it never failed. I cant say how well it works with very low flow though, I could imagine it posing a challenge but in practise I could be wrong. Drilling a tank is not that difficult and for this purpose only a small hole high in the tank would be required minimising potential disasters.  I went through quite a phase of drilling glass tanks with cheap Chinese diamond hole saws off eBay.


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## daviddj (Sep 30, 2016)

Edit out most of the previous post as I forgot you are using a sump - overflow box can work fine


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

daviddj said:


> It's 5x2x2 holding about 450L after sand and rocks.


Got it.



daviddj said:


> I used one of those overflow boxes on a tank for about 5 years and despite all the warnings of doom it never failed. I cant say how well it works with very low flow though, I could imagine it posing a challenge but in practise I could be wrong.


Thanks ... :thumb:



daviddj said:


> Drilling a tank is not that difficult and for this purpose only a small hole high in the tank would be required minimising potential disasters.  I went through quite a phase of drilling glass tanks with cheap Chinese diamond hole saws off eBay.


Good to know.

The one 55g I have (the sump candidate) is not tempered glass ... the glass is 3/8" thick and if memory serves it's an AGA tank.

The other one (current DT) I believe is tempered glass - which I understand is a problem as far as drilling. It's a Perfecto (Marineland) and the glass is only 1/4" or 5/16" thick I believe.



daviddj said:


> Edit out most of the previous post as I forgot you are using a sump - *overflow box can work fine*


Do you by chance have any cats ? 

We have four ... two are older (8 years or more), another one is probably a couple of years old ... and then there is the problem child ... who is just a little over 1 year old.

The older ones are not inclined to get into trouble ... the youngest one however is a completely different matter though ... she will get into anything and everything.

And she has absolute fascination with water ... particularly if it's moving or running. She'll climb up on the counter at the kitchen sink and alternatively swat at the faucet with a paw if it's running ... and then turn her head sideways and try and take a drink out it.

And getting her head underneath the faucet - to the point that she actually has water running into an ear - hasn't slowed her down in the least.

This past week I moved a 10g tank from under the 55g to a table next to it - providing a nice step up to the top of the 55 - and it wasn't long before I had to chase her off of the 55g.

Fortunately, that's been the only incident this far ... but it's something I have to keep in mind as I contemplate which direction to go.


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