# Is this HITH?



## Tula (Sep 9, 2007)

This is my Oscar Marcus, he's just under 1 yr old.

As do all Os, Marcus tends to have random injuries...but I'm thinking that this one looks a lot like HITH.

75 gallon tank
Eheim 2217
AquaClear 110
Rainbow shark
BN Pleco
I do about a 60-70% water change once per week.
I did have Ick about 2 months ago when I added the BN.
I don't have any tests.
Feel freeze dried Krill and Hikiri pellets.

I read that some people think carbon can cause HITH. I never used carbon until I had Ick and needed to remove meds. I just recently took it out, any thoughts on if it could have contributed to the HITH if that's what my big guy has?


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## LSBoost (Jan 21, 2010)

Doesn't look like HITH IMO. Just keep your water quality up to help it heal. Even if it's HITH, good water quality will definitely help.

Very nice oscar BTW. :thumb:


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## Tula (Sep 9, 2007)

Thank you


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## Chiquita (May 4, 2010)

How is it going? Is it still there? You could add melafix.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

Not to be an alarmist, but what you are seeing is potentially the beginnings of a rather serious ailment. A bacterial pitting disease that has been hitting Oscars pretty hard the last several years. It is caused by a specific strain of Aeromonas bacteria (lab testing has identified Aeromonas veronii biovar sobria). It is distinguished by symmetrically round white wounds that start on the gill plates (which means the gills are already impacted, as the gills appear to be the first target of the bacteria). The wounds get larger, start appearing in other areas (usually around the gill plates) before spreading to the head, where it is commonly misidentified as HITH. It eventually goes systemic, affecting the fish's internal organs and the fish stops eating and dies. It does not appear to be contagious.

This specific strain of bacteria is known to occur from leach bites, although it could also be introduced if you spend a significant amount of time gardening (especially if you compost) and do not wash your hands before sticking them in an aquarium. The current train of thought is that one of the commerical breeders, breeding fish in an outside pond, has leaches in the pond that are causing this problem. The age of your Oscar is consistent with the age of other Oscars I've dealt with that had this disease.

If this is your fish's problem... a cure is very difficult to achieve You could perform 100% water changes every day and it not make any difference (been there). Salt does no good (although it is recommended because any open wound effects osmoregulation). MelaFix/PimaFix would be a waste of money, as would almost any over the counter medication. Metro does nothing, none of the Maracyn medications do anything, Furan - nope, Furan II - nada. The only 100% confirmed cures I am aware of involved a vet and injections of Baytril (I can provide details on this process if you desire). That said, lab testing conducted on the specific strain of bacteria identified the bacteria is susceptable to neomyacin. So, if caught early enough, Seachem Neoplex might enact a cure (although it will do nothing if the ailment has gone systemic). If you're brave, Hikari Biobandage would be good (requires removing the fish from the water once per day and the application of the medication directly onto the wound). In some instances I've dealt with NeoPlex had an obvious impact, but never fully cured the fish, although there may have been some cures using NeoPlex that the people never got back with me on.

My recommendation is to try the three step process I've used to treat other bacterial pitting ailments. If caught early enough (and yours is in the pretty early stage, especially if he's still eating), it may work. I have not used this specific treatment on this disease because I have not come across it since I developed the treatment.

Stage 1: Dose with SeaChem NeoPlex (1 week)
Stage 2: Dose with SeaChem KanaPlex (1 week)
Stage 3: Dose with SeaChem Paraguard (1 week)

With this specific ailment, I would probably repeat, in the same sequence.

Now.... all of that said (long post, sorry, but lots of info to pass on).... it may be something different. But if the wound started small and has grown (and continues to grow or spread), then I would not hesitate to start treatment. Again, the above treatment would be experimental (for this specific disease... if that is what your fish has.) Without consulting a vet, having lab testing done, there is no way of knowing for sure what your fish has. All I can say is that it is consistent with the ailment I have described.


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## Tula (Sep 9, 2007)

It's hard to tell, but I think it may be getting larger. Before, it use to be a perfect circle, now the shape has changed and you can see the outline of the original circle in the wound since it has spread _i think_.

He is still eating fine. I changed his food to NLS Thera+A for Jumbo fish. His behavior hasn't changed at all either.

I took some new pictures with my better camera.


































Kmuda,
Thanks for all the info. I found an site where someone treated with the baytril injections and it seems to have worked well http://www.myfishtank.net/forum/disease-forum/49003-oscar-struggles-w-infection.html

I think I am going to try and find the SeaChem products today...or the bio-bandage...although idk how well I'd be able to keep him still to apply it or after wards to ensure it stays in contact with the wound.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

I really would like to know if the "trio of medications" works on this ailment.... and your additional photos remain entirely consistent with the ailment I described. If it does, it could save folks some serious hassle while saving some fish their lives.

We know Baytril will absolutely work. But baytril requires a vet and most vets will do nothing without seeing the fish. Perhaps you can find a vet who will work off of a photo.... and with the below information. We've had folks print this out, along with a photo of their fish, and gain a vet's assistance. So perhaps you may be able to as well.

The below article is reprinted from another web site. No worries, I mod on that web site and have permission to use it. Doc's (the author... Doc Bottom) primary concern is simply making the information available to hobbyist. Since I do not want to appear to be soliciting members to that site, I am replacing any references to that forum with (web forum).



Doc Bottom said:


> *John Satisfaction Syndrome*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tula (Sep 9, 2007)

I was unable to find the SeaChem products today, I thought one of the stores by me may have it, but looks like I'm going to have to order it. The three together actually don't look to be too expensive either.

I was actually thinking of trying amoxicillin, but the article you just shared said that this bacteria is resistant to the penicillin family of antibiotics.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

WWW.BigAlsOnline.Com has all three meds. Yes, they are inexpensive, but order two each of the NeoPlex and KanaPlex. A 10g container of NeoPlex is good for a two week dose on a 100 gallon tank. A 5g KanaPlex is not enough for a 1 week dose on a 100gallon tank.

I would not go outside the meds I've mentioned. We have tried everything else but never used KanaPlex.... whose primary purpose is to treat any systemic manifestations of the ailment. NeoPlex has had an obvious impact on external manifestations, but does no good if any internal infections exist.

We've seen this in numerous Oscars. The list of attempted meds is pretty long.

The "trifecta" of medications I am recommending is something I came up with in curing a similar (but not identical) ailment in my Oscars. I have been wanting to try it on this specific ailment, but fortunately, the number of Oscars that I'm aware of (that apparently have this disease) appears to be on the decline. Maybe because we started tracking back where the Oscars were purchased from and started notifying the companies with details (was mostly a large chain store). I still think there was a common commercial breeder involved.


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## Tula (Sep 9, 2007)

I just ordered all three meds. Until they come in I'll do some extra water changes. I know it won't cure him, but I suppose the best I can do is ensure he has the best water quality possible.



> Maybe because we started tracking back where the Oscars were purchased from and started notifying the companies with details (was mostly a large chain store). I still think there was a common commercial breeder involved.


I did buy Marcus from a large chain store.

Thanks for all of the info Kmuda, I appreciate it  I'll keep you updated on how things are going once I start the treatment.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

I've got my fingers crossed. Please do keep us informed. I am looking forward to the results because if this works, it's a breakthrough (for me anyway).

Don't expect anything immediate, I would not expect any significant results until the 3rd week or more.


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## trebor69 (Mar 15, 2010)

I have a discus with an identical looking spot

Kmuda. ....any known cases of this other than Oscars?


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

I'm only aware of it in Oscars, but there is no reason it could not occur in other fish, especially if you are a gardener. This specific strain of bacteria is not going to just appear. The primary suspected culprit are leach bites, something very feasible for Oscars which are commercially grown in ponds. Less likely for Discus, unless you are getting discus from overseas where they may be spawned in ponds.

This specific strain of bacteria is also common in compost piles (hence the reference to gardening).

For your discus, I would recommend the same treatment I recommended here, even if it's not the same ailment, as I've had very good success treating bacterial pitting with this process.


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## trebor69 (Mar 15, 2010)

ok

The discus in question I have owned for over two years. I noticed the spot 2-3 weeks ago on the gill plate and it does not appear to be getting worse.

The only other tank inhabitants are some WC Sterbai Cories which have been in the tank almost 2 years also...and a pair of bushynose plecos born and raised here at my house.

I did at one time about a year ago add a bunch of live plants. Think it could come in on live plants?

We do also have compost piles....and I have fed worms from the compost piles before


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

trebor69 said:


> We do also have compost piles....and I have fed worms from the compost piles before


In theory, that could do it. We have had a couple of Oscars that were several years old that came down with this (which means it is not likely they came from the store with it and they did not match the "large chain store" M.O.). With each of those, "compost" was in the picture somewhere and research identifies the strain of bacteria is found in compost piles.

In general, this is a very slowly progressing disease. Which is part of the problem. It progresses so slowly people do not react quick enough. Which is why... whenever I see HITH like leasons isolated to the gill plates I quickly recommend treatment.


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## Tula (Sep 9, 2007)

I began treatment today, I will take pictures throughout the process to show if there is any progress. I took some today before beginning the treatment and I will post those later as a starting point.

Kmuda-
What do you recommend for water changes while I am treating, should I still do weekly water changes, and if so any specific amount?


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

There is a direct correlation between nitrate concentration and the fish's immune system in that the higher the nitrates, the less effective the fish's immune system is going to be. I would strive to maintain nitrates below 10ppm for the duration of healing.

At a minimum, there should be very large water changes between the changes in medication (75% - 80%). Since the meds are changing weekly, this would allow you to maintain nitrates within a reasonable range. Hopefully, you performed a nice big water change before you started medicating.


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## Tula (Sep 9, 2007)

I normally do about 70% water changes weekly, so yes, I did do one before adding the meds. I had done one on Wednesday, but figured it would be best to do another before starting the meds. I'll continue to do them weekly in between the med changes.

I just wanted to check, I know some meds advise you not to do water changes while treating, or to do them more frequently.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

Please keep me informed as to progress. The only way to learn what works (and what doesn't) is to share information. :thumb:


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## Dj823cichild (Mar 30, 2009)

Hey Tula Duke 2010 Champs baby! :dancing:  :dancing:


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## Tula (Sep 9, 2007)

I started week 2 of treatment today, so after a water change I added the KanaPlex.

This picture is of day 1 of treatment, so it is my reference point.









These pictures I took tonight, so this is one week into treatment. It _looks_ like perhaps the wound is healing and getting smaller/more narrow. It's hard to tell in the pictures, but there was some depth to the wound....it's still unclear in looking at Marcus if the depth is getting any better or worse. However, the wound has not gone through the gill plate, so that is very good. 

















Marcus still has a very healthy appetite and has not shown any negative behavior changes.


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## Dj823cichild (Mar 30, 2009)

Looking better Tula! I hope he just keeps getting better and better for you!


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## Tula (Sep 9, 2007)

Thanks 

It looks even better today actually. 
He sulked all day Saturday and didn't eat, yesterday he ate a few pellets but ignored his krill which is very odd....but this morning he was begging for food. I'm thinking that the KanaPlex is bothering his appetite, but he seems to be getting use to it. He's also out and swimming around the tank now which is good. Yesterday he hung out in his corner all day again and sparred with the glass and the heater lol.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

It is not unusual for a fish to go off his feed when on antibiotics, although I have not experienced this with KanaPlex.

It looks like the treatment is working. Do you have enough NeoPlex for another weeks treatment?

From looking at the progress, I would finish this week with KanaPlex, and then go back to NeoPlex for a week, before finishing off with ParaGuard.


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## Tula (Sep 9, 2007)

So sorry for neglecting this thread...life got in the way.

I have been continuing Marcus' treatment and am thrilled to report that he is doing great! The loss of appetite when I first started the KanaPlex lasted only 1.5 days.

I will take some pics and get them up here, but looking at him you can barely tell there was anything wrong with him and you prob won't be able to see anything in the pics.

I stuck with the original treatment of
Stage 1: Dose with SeaChem NeoPlex (1 week)
Stage 2: Dose with SeaChem KanaPlex (1 week)
Stage 3: Dose with SeaChem Paraguard (1 week) 
Repeat.

This is the 6th week, I did decide to treat with the NeoPlex this week before finishing with the Paraguard next week, just to be sure I nipped this in the butt and nothing comes back.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

Fantastic. A lot of trial and error went into this specific combination of medications so it is good to see it work on this specific ailment. 

You caught it early enough to make reasonable (non-vet assisted) treatment possible.

And just in case someone jumps to "page 2" of this thread without reading page one, this IS NOT HITH. Go back to page 1 for details.


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## Tula (Sep 9, 2007)

So Marcus is done with his treatment, but I did notice that he still has a very small hole where the large "wound" was...maybe the size of a pin head.

In the pictures, if you look at the gill plate, there is a small hole where it looks like the it's pinching in. I'm hoping this is the end of the wound closing and not it re-opening.


















Kmuda, unless you have any other suggestions, I was going to just do a few extra water changes over the next few weeks and keep an eye on it, as it may be the end of the healing process (hopefully).


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## PepoLD (Dec 9, 2009)

great progress :thumb:


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

Maintain the salt dosage (1 tablespoon per 5 gallons) until the pin-hole disappears. If you see the hole starting to expand again, re-run the treatment, focusing on the KanaPlex.

You might not realize it, but it looks like you just defeated a disease that has been kicking the Oscar community's hind end for several years.


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## Dj823cichild (Mar 30, 2009)

:thumb: Congrats! :dancing:


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## Tula (Sep 9, 2007)

Keeping the salt going. I haven't noticed any increase in the pin sized hole.



> You might not realize it, but it looks like you just defeated a disease that has been kicking the Oscar community's hind end for several years.


 :thumb: and thank you very much for helping me do so! To be honest when I saw the growing literal hole in Marcus' gill plate, I thought it was a given that I was going to lose him.


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## LSBoost (Jan 21, 2010)

WOW Congrat!


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## Tula (Sep 9, 2007)

Well the hole is getting larger again, I'm going to order another round of meds today. I just did a water change and added what I had left of the NeoPlex.

The hole is not that large, it was pin size before and now it's prob the size of a pin head, but it is definitely growing so I want to get at it before it gets large again. Hopefully this second round of meds will be enough to get rid of this for good.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

That is not unusual. I experianced the same thing with my fish. I've discovered that if I maintain the salt dosage there is a much lesser chance of this occuring. So I now violate one of my rules of "Salt is Not Needed" and maintain 1 tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons. As long as the salt is there, it has not reocurred. I'm not sure how long I will continue this practice, but it's been the better part of a year now.

But I do keep the meds on hand.


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## Tula (Sep 9, 2007)

I was keeping the salt in the tank before like you suggested after I finished the treatment....but since the wound didn't fully close to begin with I was prob asking for trouble. I'm still waiting for the meds to come in, bigals was sold out so I had to use a diff place, I'm hoping they come today.

I think I'm just going to stick to the treatment sched you gave me until this clears up 100% (visibly), then I'll be sure to keep up with the salt.


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## Tula (Sep 9, 2007)

Got the meds today in the mail.
.... as I was doing the water change before adding them, I noticed that Marcus has another wound above his right eye which looks very similar to the one that started on his gill plate


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## PepoLD (Dec 9, 2009)

****. good luck..


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

I know it's discouraging. The most helpful input I have is to tell you it's not unusual for a re-occurence. My fish did the same thing. I think I ended up going through two full rounds of treatment, with a third round of NeoPlex and KanaPlex, with numerous weeks in-between relapses. It's now been the better part of a year without a relapse and his last two "oopsies", which always kicked off the pitting, have healed on their own without additional treatment. Run through another round of treatment and let's see what happens.


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