# Mbuna with swollen lips & weird deformations on fins



## Epic2112 (Jul 1, 2016)

Hi all, I think I've got something going on in my tank, but I don't recognize the symptoms at all.

A few weeks back I noticed a couple of my male Mbuna (a Greshaki and a Red Zebra) had weird swollen lips. I didn't really think much of it since they are two of the bigger males (~4 inches) in the tank, I figured there had been some lip locking going on and this was the aftermath. Well, it's maybe 4 weeks later, and the Greshaki hasn't improved, the Red Zebra's lips might be slightly worse, plus I noticed that his anal fin has a weird bit where it looks like it's almost got a bubble in it at the end of some of the rays. I also noticed a small growth on the lip of one of my female Kenyiis, and the same bubble growths on her dosal fin. I no longer think this is related to lip locking or fighting. The two males look significantly different and I have seen absolutely no aggression between them, and the female was holding until about a week ago so she would have been in the rocks and keeping to herself. I'm concerned that whatever I have going on is spreading. You can see in the pics below the fish have slightly torn up fins. This isn't really normal for my tank. Sure they fight sometimes, but it's rare that a fish has ragged fins for more than a couple of days. All of them are eating and behaving normally.

*Tank details:*
* 220 gallon mostly Mbuna tank (there are maybe 4 haps, plus a medium sized Frontosa)
* The tank is established, it's been up for about a year
* Temp:79 degrees
* Filtration: 2 Eheim 2217s, 1 Fluval FX5, UV filter. All established.
* I haven't done a water quality test lately (I'm colorblind and need the wife's assistance, when she's willing), but I rarely have water quality issues. Typically do two or three 20 - 30% water changes a week. I use Prime to treat the water.
* pH is typically high 7s
* I don't have KH & GH specs handy, but if it seems like they'll help the diagnosis I'll corner my better half so she helps me . I use a homemade buffer of aquarium salt, baking soda, & epsom salt, plus aragonite substrate.
* Ammonia & Nitrite are usually close to zero. Nitrate tends to be a challenge, often above 40 - 50 ppm.
* Generally I think the fish are happy with the water quality, it's rare that I don't have any spawning/holding.

*Here are photos:*
Red Zebra lips profile view (you can sort of make out the weirdness on the anal fin too)









Red Zebra front view









Another front view of the Red Zebra









Greshaki profile (you can sort of make out the scraggly looking caudal fin too)









Different Greshaki profile, a it closer up









Any help or guidance will be much appreciated.


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## My2butterflies (Jul 31, 2016)

I personally had no clue what caused the swollen lips but looked it up the best I could. I found this info on mfk.

this is a bactirial infection metro plus in a hospital tank w 50%water changes every day and he will still most likly not make it i used antibiotic injections from a koi breeder just have to make sure doses are correct or youll kill the fish its caled duck lip common in flowerhorn and angels

And this: 
Although this post is 2 years old at this point, and the author may never check it again, I will post what happened to his fish to the best of my experience, and perhaps others may benefit from it.

Your convict most likely came into contact with an anaerobic bacterial infection through a small cut in the mouth which spread quickly to his brain and gave him a quick death--usually only takes 2-14 days depending on the fish and wound size.

How this happens is in heavier piles of substrate and underneath ornaments (such as your big reef castle), anaerobic bacteria may form during periods of abnormal oxygen and nitrite shifts.

When the victim fish begins moving this infected substrate around, if he has any open wound in the mouth, he'll will be capable of obtaining this bacteria in the wound--which will, in turn, spread very quickly through the face and eyes, and kill the fish rather abruptly. I lost a few fish to this issue in years past--primarily during spawnings when substrates were being rearranged most.

This bacteria is aggressive, and you must act within the first 24 hours of spotting it, or there is virtually no hope. The only things I have seen work in the least bit was Methronidazole or Chloramphenicol treatments--which may still fail. I actually saved a fish once by resorting to cutting the tip of the poor gal's nose off--she scarred a little, but survived.

Preventive measures should be taken to reduce the chance of anaerobic bacteria reaching the mouth of a fish. First is keep the substrate spread out and not too deep! Cichlids love to dig, and AB loves to hide in the deep parts of the substrate. Something as simple as a broken tooth can leave the wound and mouth susceptible to falling victim to bacteria. Next, always make sure to gravel vac underneath those large ornaments. I recommend redecorating every month to keep those ABs from having a chance to develop.

Anyhow, this is a horrifying bacteria for any hobbyist to come across. In most cases, it is more ethical to euthanize the poor fish, rather than to watch its face rot off in a few days if you fail to catch it in time.

I hope no one has to face this monster, but if you do, at least you will have an idea of what you're up against.

Good luck!

I hope this helps! If it is bacterial you'll need to act fast.


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## jwm2k3 (Oct 14, 2016)

Definitely looks bacterial to me..


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## Epic2112 (Jul 1, 2016)

Thanks for the responses.

I don't *think* it's duckbill/columnaris for a few reasons (though maybe I'm wrong so feel free to correct me):
* Everything I've read says columnaris is fast-acting and deadly. This has been going on in my tank for at least a month, and I can't remember the last time I lost a fish. 
* Apparently columnaris doesn't do well in saltwater. This isn't a marine tank, but there are a lot of dissolved salts and minerals.
* There are no signs of any lesions, fuzzyness, or that sort of thing.

All that said, if it is bacterial, maybe I ought to just treat the whole tank with metronidazole or something like that, as it seems like it might be spreading, although that could get expensive I suppose. Any thoughts?


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## My2butterflies (Jul 31, 2016)

I'd personally move the fish that are effected to a hospital tank for treatment. 
Then I'd do a really thorough cleaning on the tank. Take all decor out ect. I wouldn't wash the decor, but vacuum under everything. 
Im not sure if treating the whole tank would be worth while since only fish with injuries would be susceptible to the bacteria. Right?

I'm interested in seeing what more experienced keepers have to say about bacterial issues.


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## Epic2112 (Jul 1, 2016)

Bumping this to see if anyone else recognizes the issue, before I start guessing at treatments without really having identified the problem.


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## moorealot (Mar 16, 2017)

We are having same problems for a few months now, tried several treatments, no luck so far.
Fish act normal, only fish loss after mouth so swollen it couldn't eat.
Definitely spreads, seen mainly in fins, tail and dorsal. 
Have 2 worst in hospital tank trying different things, no luck so far, if you find anything that works please post. 125 tank infected, lots of fish at risk. Finding more and more posts with same but no diagnosis or cure. If we find anything will post.


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## Epic2112 (Jul 1, 2016)

Thanks for chiming in, sounds exactly like what's going on in my tank. Are your effected fish showing both the swollen mouths and puffyness on their fins? I've also noticed some of mine that have those symptoms also exhibiting some splitchiness to their color.

I just finished a course of metronidazole on the whole tank, slightly overdosing since I know théat that's a common tactic. I had also dropped the temp in the tank from 80 degrees to 77. No effect whatsoever. The Greshaki in my initial post has died. So had it one other fish but I think it was coincidental since it hadn't shown any symptoms.

I had also been treating the tank with Melafix do deal with some unrelated torn fibs etc. no effect, although that's not particularly surprising.

I've begun noticing symptoms on a few other fish as well.

Let's see if we can find some sort of commonality between the two of us. I'm in the Washington D.C. Metro area, are you near by? Are your fish also African cichlids? Malawi? Mbuna?

Could you possibly point me to some of the other posts you've found about this?


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