# What did I do wrong? 5 of 6 Brichardi dead.



## brcollins1 (May 10, 2009)

New user here, I'd appreciate any help figuring out where I messed up in setting up my new tank and killing 5 cichlids so far...

I decided to set up a 29 gal tank for my 13 month old son's viewing pleasure... I had a freshwater tank in college and kept the same fish for years. I was just getting into cichlids when work precluded me from keeping fish back in 2002. Now, I'm back at it, and I'm even more careful than before regarding chemistry, etc., and doing things 'right'.

I decided to set up this 29 gal as a Neolamprologus brichardi species tank with live plants (Java Fern, Anub. only). I began the process of a 'fishless cycle' back in March. After 6 weeks the cycle was complete. Plants were added around 4 weeks and have been doing fine. All indications from reading about fishless cycles are that you can 'fully stock' once the cycle is complete.

I tested the Ammonia, High range Ph, Nitrite, and Nitrate each week. The ammonia spiked, the nitrite then spiked, and then all fell to 0 ppm with Ph holding steady at 8.2.

There's also an air bubble strip, new filter (Emperor), and the heater works fine- holding tank temp steady at 78 deg F.

The only chemicals I added during the fishless cycle were Stresszyme and Stresscoat on a weekly basis. I've also added API's liquid plant food on a weekly basis.

The time was right (or so I thought) to add fish. The tank had no fish prior to this (which is the point of a fishless cycle). I purchased 6 Neolamprologus brichardi direct from a hatchery source (livefishdirect.com). When they arrived yesterday (overnight shipping), they seemed fine in the bag. They were all together and they appeared healthy. I put the bag in the tank and let it float for 1 hour to get the water temps even. I then netted each Brichardi one at a time and released them in the tank (this was yesterday). They appeared to gasp for air within 2 hours, which I did not understand. The local PetSmart was not much help. They suggested a 25% water change (but Nitrates were low, so..). I did the water change anyway as suggested and added more stresscoat and stresszyme. By the next morning, 3 of them died. Then 2 more by noon today. 1 is still hanging on, but I wouldn't be surprised at this point to lose them all.

Extremely frustrating. What did I fail to check / do? And where do I go from here? I thought Brichardi were easy- should I try something else first?

Thanks for reading and for any suggestions.

Here are some pics of the tank prior to killing a bunch of Brichardi:


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

I'm sorry for your losses... that's a tough break.

You've described an acute reaction, so it's likely that your water has something toxic. Stress coat should have taken care of heavy metals, chlorine and chloramine. My best guess is that the ammonia you used for your fishless cycle has something other than just ammonia.

I once killed off my entire, well established tank within a few hours after a 30% water change when I forgot the tap water conditioner. Their symptoms were just as you described. I've also seen a similar die off when chemical residues in a mop bucket were introduced when the wrong bucket was used for a water change.


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## overleaf (Jan 18, 2009)

brcollins1 said:


> They appeared to gasp for air within 2 hours, which I did not understand. The local PetSmart was not much help. They suggested a 25% water change (but Nitrates were low, so..). I did the water change anyway as suggested and added more stresscoat and stresszyme. By the next morning, 3 of them died. Then 2 more by noon today. 1 is still hanging on, but I wouldn't be surprised at this point to lose them all.


That's a beautiful tank! I think you have java fern and amazon sword/crypts though, not anubias.

Gasping for air is usually caused by several things:

1) High Ammonia
2) High Nitrite
3) Low oxygen
4) Toxins

Since you performed a fishless cycle 1 and 2 aren't likely, especially after 2 hours. Did you happen to check the water after the deaths?

3 is also unlikely. Oxygen is lowered as temperatures rise however sitting at 78 your power filter should be enough to oxygenate the water alone, not to mention your air strip.

4 is what I would suspect. Does your ammonia contain surfactants? Did you perform any water changes after the cycle prior to adding fish?


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## oobrieoo (Apr 8, 2009)

You mention fishless cycling... What exactly did you use for cycling? Did you go with the ammonia method? If so, did you make sure it was 100% ammonia, with no added chemicals or perfumes?

Also, how was the bag water? If the bag water was bad, they could of suffered ammonia burn, which if bad enough, causes irreparable damage to their gills, leading to death even days later.

1 hour is a bit long IMO to just float the bag. 10-15mins is usually plenty to bring the bag to tank temp. Usually you want to add 1/2cup of water at a time to the bag during acclimation to bring it to the same levels as your tank before releasing them. PH drops dramatically in bag water during shipping, esp when there's several fish in the bag, so going from what could of been 6.0 PH to your 8.2 might of shocked them a bit too.

Anyway, those are just some ideas off the top of my head, sorry to hear about the loss, it always sucks.


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## oobrieoo (Apr 8, 2009)

overleaf said:


> That's a beautiful tank! I think you have java fern and amazon sword/crypts though, not anubias.


I think thats Anubias lanceolota or something similar... They have elongated pointed leaves.


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## overleaf (Jan 18, 2009)

oobrieoo said:


> overleaf said:
> 
> 
> > That's a beautiful tank! I think you have java fern and amazon sword/crypts though, not anubias.
> ...


Looks like you're right!


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## brcollins1 (May 10, 2009)

Thanks for the replies. The last one is now dead as well. :?

It must be case 4, overleaf, but it must be something other than ammonia or nitrite. I'm not sure what. Those were both 0 ppm before adding the fish and I also tested everything as they were dying, though I did notice a Ph spike (I was thinking this was from the addition of the fish?). I was thinking some sort of shock due to Ph, but I didn't test the water they were shipped in. I did notice it was bright green (the water in the bag from the fish seller). I didn't mix the two waters together. The ammonia for the cycle (supposedly) was pure.


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## overleaf (Jan 18, 2009)

It's not uncommon for ammonia to contain other ingredients. Can you check the label of the ammonia you used?


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## Longstocking (Aug 26, 2003)

Sometimes we never know why fish die...

I wish we could learn from every death... but sometimes it's just not possible.

Now you don't want to add any other expensive fish to the tank unless you know what is going on.

I'd suggest picking up some cheap fish and finding out if it is your water/tank...

Or maybe even their shipping methods. It could be nothing you did.


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## mielkeal (Mar 3, 2006)

I am suprised no one has mentioned this sooner but it could have been shock due to differences in the new tank water compared to the water that the fish was raised and shipped in. I am talking about differences in ph and water hardness and such. I always try to slowly acclimate new fish to their new water by putting the fish and water into a container and gradually adding tank water a little at a time over the course of at least half an hour, the longer the better, until they are in a 50% solution of shipping water and aquarium water. Assuming the water temps are close, the new fish can be placed into the new tank.


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## overleaf (Jan 18, 2009)

mielkeal said:


> I am suprised no one has mentioned this sooner but it could have been shock due to differences in the new tank water compared to the water that the fish was raised and shipped in. I am talking about differences in ph and water hardness and such. I always try to slowly acclimate new fish to their new water by putting the fish and water into a container and gradually adding tank water a little at a time over the course of at least half an hour, the longer the better, until they are in a 50% solution of shipping water and aquarium water. Assuming the water temps are close, the new fish can be placed into the new tank.


oobrieoo mentioned that already.

I didn't because Brichardi have been pretty hardy for me. A long time ago I had a tank's ph "tank" and a water change brought it up quickly from about 6.4 -> 7.8 without any visible stress. I realize I was probably lucky and knowing what I know now I would have been more careful... but I was new to the hobby


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Be careful when acclimating by drip method or the gradual addition of tank water method. As said, pH 
drops in the bag water, and there will be ammonia in the bag water as well. Ammonia is more toxic at 
both a higher pH and temp. So, floating and raising the temp, and then adding water to raise the pH 
is going to make the ammonia in the bag more toxic. That's why I've moved away from this method and 
just get the fish out of the bags and into the tank as soon as possible. I've read a lot of different ideas 
about pH shock. I think it's a carryover from the early days of fish keeping and really doubt that it causes 
fish deaths nearly as much as it's been given credit for. I don't see the 'net and dump' method as one 
for naive newcomers to the hobby anymore. Just the opposite.

I agree with Longstocking that it's not always possible to know, but my guess is the extended bag time 
and acclimation time exposed the fish to the toxic form of ammonia for an extended time. If you're going 
to use this method, then at least introduce a drop or two of Ammolock or similar. I've tested this stuff 
and it does work. It bound 2-3ppm of free ammonia in bag water. It wasn't a test that I ran purposely, 
though. Shipped some fish and the fine folks at the post office returned them to me. They'd been in the 
bags for a couple of days. Free ammonia tested almost 0, but total was 2-3ppm.

Bottom line, I think it's a choice between the lesser of two evils. What's worse, a pH shift or toxic 
ammonia? I've also moved fish around freely from tank to tank and never have I seen any stress 
from differences in temp or pH, although the differences in my tanks aren't that great. I just think pH 
gets blamed because we often want to point to some reason and have nothing else.

Just my .02


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## VT4Me (Mar 23, 2008)

prov356 said:


> Be careful when acclimating by drip method or the gradual addition of tank water method. As said, pH
> drops in the bag water, and there will be ammonia in the bag water as well. Ammonia is more toxic at
> both a higher pH and temp. So, floating and raising the temp, and then adding water to raise the pH
> is going to make the ammonia in the bag more toxic. That's why I've moved away from this method and
> ...


I fully agree with this.

I've never bothered with the drip method whether it be with my Tangs or anything else. Just a 30 minute float and straight in. Knock on wood, it's always been successful.


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## morningsky (Apr 22, 2008)

My last online order advised to float, then pour fish into net over a bucket or container (not saving any bagged water) 
then place net in tank and let fish swim out.


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## brcollins1 (May 10, 2009)

Thanks again for all the replies. I agree- no more expensive fish for a while. I'm going to keep testing the water and go from there with one or two locally-purchased fish.

Beyond Ammonia, Nitrite, High-PH, and Nitrate, what else if anything should I test?

I did double check and there are no listed surfactants in the ammonia.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I'm going to keep testing the water and go from there with one or two locally-purchased fish.


That's what I'd do, just make sure they're healthy and hardy fish. Cheap danios may die on you due to 
being kept in poor conditions in the dealer's tank. It may get you to falsely believe you've got a 
problem in your own tank and water. You also want to be careful of introducing disease.

Nothing else that you can test really. At least as far as toxicity to fish.


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## VT4Me (Mar 23, 2008)

Just one more long shot question occurred to me. Is the tank covered or open?


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## brcollins1 (May 10, 2009)

In answer, the tank is covered. The light is on a timer for the plants to receive 8 hours of light per day.


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## brcollins1 (May 10, 2009)

prov356 said:


> Nothing else that you can test really. At least as far as toxicity to fish.


Sounds good. That's my plan- keep testing the water, make sure it's stable, and add some locally-bought fish.

I'll post an update once the news is a bit more positive 

Thanks again all.


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## brcollins1 (May 10, 2009)

I kept testing the tank, made sure the water was okay, then tried again- this time with 3 locally-purchased Bumblebee cichlids (I know, wrong forum now).

They are all doing great- had no signs of shock- and have adapted well to the tank. Plants are doing well too with lots of new growth.


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