# The bodies of the fallen litter my tank floor



## gaqua (Apr 11, 2008)

Okay, here's what's going on.

On Sunday this week, I moved my tank. It was fairly heavily stocked, and it's a 75G with plenty of rockwork and hiding spots.

Here's the stock:

16 Demasoni (6 of which are .5"-1" fry) 
5 Pseudotropheus Elongatus Orange Sunburst (1m/4f)
8 Msobo Deep (2?m/6?f) (at least 2 males - some are juvies and may not have colored up yet)
6 Cynotilapia Afra Cobue (2m/4f)

4 Multipunctatus (4")
6 Petricola (2")
4 Bristlenose pleco (2")

I've got plenty of filtration and the tank was fine without any deaths for about a month before I moved it.

I put the fish in 3 separate moving containers with lids and fresh water treated with Prime. The move was only about an hour so no airstone was needed.

I then moved everything, filled the tank with water, treated it, checked temperature (72 degrees instead of their usual 76 or so) and began slowly acclimating the fish. The rockwork changed a bit, but I change rockwork every month or so anyway so that's not unusual.

The problem is that in the 4 days since Sunday, every one of my Bristlenose plecos has died, 2 of my demasoni (not the fry) have died, 2 of my msobos have died, and 2 elongatus have died, including the male.

So in 4 days I've had 10 fish die. I'm confused. The fish seem healthy, there's no outward signs of aggression, and the corpses have been chewed upon a bit but not eaten completely. I remove the corpses as soon as I see them.

The water was fully treated, the filters were kept wet during the move, and the Ammonia, Nitrates, and Nitrites all look right. Water pH is the same as well, right around 8.0.

So what's the deal? Is it just aggression due to the stress of a new move? Why did every one of the plecos die? Is there something toxic in the tank? Is there something I can check for aside from what I'm looking at already?

I didn't feed them for 3 days before the move, and I'm feeding them twice a day very lightly now and since the move. They don't have swollen or sucked-in bellies...so any thoughts?


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

ammonia read zero?

new water source or same as old one? What are the nitrates at now? should be nice and low with a 100% water change and only 4 days...


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## CICHLUDED (Aug 4, 2006)

Did you use any new, paints, solvents, cleaners, glues, or silicone?

Sounds like some kind of chemical poisoningâ€¦

.


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## lotsofish (Feb 28, 2008)

The only possibilities I can think of:

1)The bristlenose are bottom feeders and for all of them to die, it suggests that perhaps there was organic matter in the substrate that became toxic. Stirring up the substrate might have released toxins or toxic gasses.

2)Another possibility is that the stress of the move was a final straw and they were already suffering some type of disease or parasite that their bodies were fighting ok until the move.

3) New plumbing or plumbing that was unused for a while might have introduced toxins to your new tank water.

Unexplained deaths are always a guess unless someone can dissect and/or examine slides of scrapings. It is very frustrating. If someone would offer a class on diagnosing fish illness and deaths, I would like to take it.

It sounds like you did all the things right for your move. I am sorry for your loses.


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## gaqua (Apr 11, 2008)

lotsofish said:


> The only possibilities I can think of:
> 
> 1)The bristlenose are bottom feeders and for all of them to die, it suggests that perhaps there was organic matter in the substrate that became toxic. Stirring up the substrate might have released toxins or toxic gasses.


You might have something here. When I put the tank back together, I had stirred up the sand quite a bit, and there was a small amount of water still on top of it from the old tank. Because of my rock setup (which was removed for the move) I rarely get the chance to stir up the sand, it's possible some toxic gases were released and when adding the new water and treating it, those toxic gases dissolved into the water.

The weird thing is why some fish are seemingly unaffected and others die within days. I'm going to check my water again this evening. On Tuesday when I checked, Ammonia was zero, Nitrates and Nitrites were both 0 as well.


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## Super Turtleman (May 21, 2007)

I'm not great on water chemistry, but your ammonia and nitrites should be at zero. You should have some nitrates (about 5-10ppm). That's probably the problem. It seems your tank went into a cycle after the move. You will probably have to keep doing water changes until your tank finishes cycling again. Maybe one of the mods who are very good in cycling matters can explain it better.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Substrate should be churned every 4 - 6 weeks, even if it means moving things around a bit to do so.

What are the exact water parameters today? What kind of test kits are you using? (Liquid reagent or strips?) How long have you had the test kits?

Did you replace the filter media with the move?


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Were you able to observe the fish's behavior in the days and hours before they died? Were they eating normally? Swimming in all areas of the tank or were they hiding or hanging at the top or bottom? Were the BNs hanging out in the open or doing their usuall thing of cleaning the glass and rocks? Any thing notable on their skin before they died? (Fuzzy-patchy growth)

If the deaths were without symptoms, in other words the fish were eating and swimming normally one day and dead the next, then I would say it was either aggression or a toxin in the water. What that toxin might be and where it came from we may never know.

As a precaution I would do daily partial water changes using the Prime at the full recommended dosage and keep testing your water. As careful as you were with the move you may still have had some or all of the beneficial bacteria die off in your filter. Check and make sure it's running correctly with a good strong flow coming out of the filter return.

Sorry you lost so many fish.

Robin


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## gaqua (Apr 11, 2008)

Well I think I found the culprit. Tonight when I got home I tested the water and was shocked to find the ammonia at 25ppm.

I also noticed a few more dead fish.

So I took all my rocks out and found a dead and decomposing fish (my largest male Demasoni) under one of the rocks, and there was a lot of decomposition - he'd been there for a few days at least. Also, a few large air bubbles came up from the rocks. I realized then my mistake - I'd foolishly put the rocks into the tank, then filled it with water. I didn't rotate the rocks, so there were a few caves of trapped air - and my dead demasoni was right on the border of one. I took 5 more corpses out tonight, did a 50% water change, and added Prime at the full amount.

The filters are pushing water through but it looks like I'm going through a mini-cycle again. Some of the bacteria probably died. So I'm going to go ahead and do changes every other day, anytime the ammonia gets over 10ppm. After my water change tonight and a full dose of prime the Ammonia should be lower tomorrow morning.

We'll see how many fish live and how many die. Most of them were juveniles, so I hadn't had time to grow a huge attachment to them, but it still sucks, especially at $5-10 a fish, I'd rather not think about how many dollars worth of fish I just threw into the compost.

Oh well - lesson learned I guess.

On the bright side, I should have some room for a new species when this is all over with. :\


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Adding fresh carbon to the filter, or Zeolite will help absorb the ammonia.

Since nitrite follows ammonia you should add aquarium salt at the rate of 1-2 teaspoons per ten gallons to help detoxify it. Keep the salt level consistant throughout any water changes.

Continue to test your water daily for ammonia and nitrite. The Prime can be used at a stronger dose should there be a nitrite spike. The directions are on the label. 
Until your water parameters are back to normal decrease feedings and increase water movement by dropping the water level an inch or two so that the filter return creates a waterfall/splash.

Over stocked tanks are beautiful but one of the disadvantages is that with such a heavy bioload water parameters can go down hill fast. Also with so many fish its nearly impossible to notice if one or more of them is showing symptoms of illness until its too late and likewise you're not going to notice right away if a fish has died.

Again, sorry you lost so many fish, hope things turn around now that you've discovered the problem(s).

Robin


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## GBSTEVE (Dec 10, 2007)

As a general rule I NEVER re use substrate from a tank move.If over 2" in depth you will have strata of different bacteria, depending upon their oxygen requirement. Re using this substrate will put different bacteria into conditions that are fatal to them, causing excess load on the filter. As you kept your filter live, this can ultimately deal with this load although a fatal ammonia "spike" can arise, do it's damage and be dealt with by the filter in the time it takes your tank volume to pass through the filter - i.e a matter of minutes. I would imagine your nitrate readings to have increased much more than you would normally expect for a 4 day period - evidence of the filter having to work in overdrive at times. For the same reason I wouldn't recommend stirring more than 1/3 of the substrate at any time, unless it is done weekly (before significant colonization can occur)

Mainly, though, sorry for your loss, I know how devastating this can be


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

And I'll just add that when we say 'stir' the substrate you might not want to literally stir it if the substrate has been sitting undisturbed for any length of time or you have any reason to suspect that there is significant waste build up. 
An-aerobic pockets of bacteria build up in substrate that has been sitting undisturbed, especially under large rocks and decorations. Stirring the substrate will release these pockets and this sudden concentrated release can kill your fish--instantly.

Ideally what you want to do is push your suction nozzle straight down into the substrate and keep it there until the water runs clean. Then move to another spot and do the same thing until you've gotten most of the tank.

Don't get me wrong: stirring the substrate is a good idea if you do it on a regular basis. Stirring gets air into the substrate and this will help to prevent the an-aerobic pockets. (Aerobic=with air, _An_-aerobic=without air) But if you've let things go for awhile or you've got some deep areas of substrate, (my mbuna like to pile it up in one corner), then it's best to suction those areas _before_ stirring them.

Robin


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