# Wild Caught Vics



## teknikAL

Anyone have a group from the recent export of Wild Caught Vics? :-?

If you do please share.


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## chapman76

Dave from www.davesrarefish.com does and I think Jason (jtsaquatics) does. Outside of that I'm not sure.


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## ds1196

Here are some of the fish that came in as "red pseudonigricans"





































There are obviously at least 3 (possibly 4) distinctly different males in the group of 12 that I got. The most frustrating thing is the females. I don't know which males to put them with. Right now, I've giving the females a small amount of methyl-testosterone daily to get them to show a little color so I can match them to the proper males. Even then, I'll have them separated, but I still won't know what species they are!


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## jts_aquatics

Dave, if you feed them the methyl. They will end up being sterile and non-breedable.

Here are pics of the ones I got in Pundamilia sp zebra nyererei Makobe Island





































I ended up with 8 males and 4 females from the 12 in stock


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## nick a

How long have they been in the tank (are they settled in)?

In person, how do they compare to available info on Makobes?
Such as
Samaki's








Ole's








the pic in the profile here---?


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## jts_aquatics

These are not the Pundamilia nyererei makobe Islands.

They were sold as wild Pundamilia sp zebra nyererei Makobe island.

So no confusion should be made here.

These were landed in the USA on Aug 17th, so it has been in captivity for a month exactly. In my tanks now for 11 days.


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## Fogelhund

nick a - Two different fish altogether.

I think it is great that wild Vic's have been made available to the hobby. On the down side, it is very unfortunate that they have been mixed up, and ensuring their progeny will be pure is going to be VERY difficult. Such great fish, I just wish they would be treated with more respect.


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## jts_aquatics

Fogelhund said:


> nick a - Two different fish altogether.
> 
> I think it is great that wild Vic's have been made available to the hobby. On the down side, it is very unfortunate that they have been mixed up, and ensuring their progeny will be pure is going to be VERY difficult. Such great fish, I just wish they would be treated with more respect.


The fish i got in are not mixed. I was told by the importer that Dave only had one fish that wasnt to his group by what he had read in Daves post on Hill Country Cichlid Clubs forum.

I can clearly tell that all my males are the same and all the females are the same and correct to my males because when they were colored down they clearly showed the same metallic colors to their bodies that the males did. But I will spawn them and make sure they are correct when grown out before I distribute mine to anyone.

I do plan on ordering more today as well.

Three more of the five species that are available.


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## Fogelhund

jts_aquatics said:


> I was told by the importer that Dave only had one fish that wasnt to his group by what he had read in Daves post on Hill Country Cichlid Clubs forum.


As you can see, (if you've looked) there are three, perhaps four types in that one group.


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## jts_aquatics

Fogelhund said:


> jts_aquatics said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was told by the importer that Dave only had one fish that wasnt to his group by what he had read in Daves post on Hill Country Cichlid Clubs forum.
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see, (if you've looked) there are three, perhaps four types in that one group.
Click to expand...

I see them but I really dont think that the importer would have sold that many mixed fish together as they are a very big name in the industry. He personally told me that there appears to be one fish that is in doubt incorrect and thats the second pic down. he told me that the black pattern or color is the fright color of the one thats colored to the red that looks similar to a Hippo Point Salmon. I went thru all this with the importer before I made my purchase. I am very happy with my purchase and plan to order more today or tomorrow.

i wont be ordering the fish from the specie that Dave ordered from thou. So we shall see what comes in next week or the week after and I will keep you guys updated here.


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## Fogelhund

Everybody makes mistakes, no matter how long they've been in the business, nor how reputable they are. I know where these fish come from, and I also know the history quite well.


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## nick a

Could this be JT's fish, correctly named?http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/p_pundamilia.php

Mistakes happen to all of us--it's what we do afterwards that counts!

Those fish in Dave's pics were ordered for me. Dave warned me of problems in a phone call. As soon as I saw the fish, he saw the disappointment in my face and told me he did not expect me to pay for these *obviously* mixed up fish. I cannot express here how much I appreciate his honesty and integrity. Similarly, I find few words to express why the original seller would stone-wall in the face of such blatant fact.


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## ds1196

I only ordered one of the 5 groups of fish that the importer had available. I've heard from others that the other 4 species that were brought in were not mixed up. I just picked the wrong one! :lol:

Please don't misunderstand me though. I am very happy with the fish that I got, and have been happy with all fish I've ever ordered from this importer. Mistakes are easily made with wild caught fish. Many fish that are caught in the same area, such as the rufus and the rubripinnis, are easily confused, especially when fresh out of the bag and not showing any color.

As for the second pic that I posted, it was taken at an extreme angle, so the head looks much more rounded than it really is.

Also, the testosterone won't sterilize the fish long term if given in small doses. It causes problems when huge amounts are fed, like we see in Asian cichlid imports where one inch peacocks are colored up better than adult males ever get!


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## jts_aquatics

Nick,

I was told thats what they could be but we know for a fact that alot of species havent been described in the lake and new species are always found. Since we dont have someone like Ad Konings down there its not helping the situation here. I had ordered this group for a guy as well and he thought that they would be the pundamilia nyererei makobe islands and returned them for credit for other fishes. I told him once they color fully he is going to regret giving them back.

I have been giving mine some freeze dried cyclopeeze to help with the color and we will go from there.

Dave, I am happy with my order as well from this importer and order the rest of the rock kribs today and ordered the neos and the pundamilia nyererei reds. I will post pics once they come in to share with you so you dont have to waste more money if indeed these species are mixed.

I would hate to see them being mixed at all considering the problems we have in the hobby already with hybrids. But they can come from the lake that way as well.


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## ds1196

Keep us posted, please! I'd love to see pics of all three of those species.


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## nick a

The author of the article I linked to is as close to an Ad as we have locally for Lake Victorians. I agree with you 100% on the difficulties with ID'ing and with trying to keep pure strains (partially due to the ID problem). Obviously, for your buyer, other hobbiests and myself, P. nyererei collected from Makobe Island should be a clearly understood entity. The concept of two P. nyererei variants at the same locale can (and evidently --has) caused some confusion. I can only imagine the cross-breeding and muddying of strains caused by sellers using outdated or trade names or simply passing along whatever name they were given at the time of purchase. As I step off my soapbox :roll: I hope that the efforts of those like Mr. Steeves will pay some dividends in the future as we all try to use the best nomenclature available.


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## ds1196

Pundamilia pundamilia was described in 1998 if I remember correctly. Until that point, it was known as Pundamilia sp. "Zebra Nyererei", so the name wasn't incorrect, but just a little outdated. Males are very easy to distinguish between the P. pundamilia and the P. nyererei found at Makobe, but the females are another story. Greg had mentioned that while they're both found at Makobe, the P. pundamilia is found in deeper water than the nyererei, so that's how they remain separated in the wild.


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## samaki

Hi I saw that there's a confusion in the P.pundamilia Makobe(jts pics) because this fish was called before its descritpion P.nyererei zebra so here's the confusion. Jts, yur fish is the real Pundamilia pundamilia Makobe.
xris


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## jts_aquatics

Samaki, thanks. Thats what Mike had told me that you said when we first emailed you the pics of them. Now as for Dav's fish i dont know what he received. We shall see thou


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## samaki

The two species are living in the same island but P.pundamilia lives inside the reef while P.nyererei lives in the exposed shores.
xris


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## alanastar

hi, 
samaki as you are aware of the pics i sent you of the "wild" P. nyererei makobe i still have pics on my phone of the wild P.pundamelia python blue from the same source.
i will try and transfer the pics onto my PC :-?

paul b


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## jts_aquatics

samaki said:


> The two species are living in the same island but P.pundamilia lives inside the reef while P.nyererei lives in the exposed shores.
> xris


samaki, I was reading one of Ole's publications on his site and he states that P. pundamilia lives near the shores of makobe while P nyererei makobe island lives in deeper waters then P. pundamilia.

Are you sure you dont have this reveresed?

I need to find fogelhound the link to Ole's site I found with his past and present researches and publications.

One I find it again I will post the link but seems to me that alot of the information would only be good for biologists and scientists that work directly with these species in the lake.


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## jts_aquatics

alanastar said:


> hi,
> samaki as you are aware of the pics i sent you of the "wild" P. nyererei makobe i still have pics on my phone of the wild P.pundamelia python blue from the same source.
> i will try and transfer the pics onto my PC :-?
> 
> paul b


Is this a high jack post??

What source you referring to my friend?

I think your not on the topic of the recent fishes that we received here in the States.

Did you get recent fishes imported where your at too alanastar?

If so I was told by the importer that he had bought these because the european market wasnt buying fish due to extreme summer heat and the collector was just sitting on them. So he basically bought everything he had because he didnt want the collector to feel that his time and physical effort was not a waste and to convince him to go back for more at a later time.

Hopefully that is the case here so we can continue to get fish from the lake before they are completely extinct.

I am proud to have these in my possesion directly from the lake and to preserve this specie/variant that was exported.


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## samaki

Hi Jts, yes the P.pundamilia lives in less deeper water but not in the same side of the reefs, I got my infos from Y.fermon that fished in Makobe and was one on the first to collect the nyererei from this island.  
xris


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## ds1196

ds1196 said:


> Greg had mentioned that while they're both found at Makobe, the P. pundamilia is found in deeper water than the nyererei, so that's how they remain separated in the wild.


I guess I misunderstood what he was saying. Wouldn't be the first time! :lol:

Thanks for the info, Chris!


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## nick a

With all of this stated JT, will you be relabeling yours as P. pundamilia?


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## jts_aquatics

nick a said:


> With all of this stated JT, will you be relabeling yours as P. pundamilia?


Honestly I think I am going to keep them as what they are until someone with proper knowledge tells me different.

This could be a specie never collected as well.

We dont know to be honest


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## samaki

jts_aquatics said:


> nick a said:
> 
> 
> 
> With all of this stated JT, will you be relabeling yours as P. pundamilia?
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly I think I am going to keep them as what they are until someone with proper knowledge tells me different.
> 
> This could be a specie never collected as well.
> 
> We dont know to be honest
Click to expand...

Hi Jt the Makobe island is one by far which was the most studied by Leiden university and O.Seehausen so we know which species at wich depth so it isn't as yu said an unknown thing.Yu can take a look at the Olee Seehausen book about the Pundamlia pundamilia(before P.nyererei zebra) for its distribution within the Mwanza gulf and the share of space with its sibling species P.nyererei. So to be honest, this is one that we know well.
xris :lol:


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## jts_aquatics

I have ordered the book and will let you know when it comes in.

I also will be getting 3 more species from the list and will keep you guys upfated on them. They will be in Monday.


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## jts_aquatics

Well the new shipment came in tonight and I am amazed at the red in the Pundamilia Nyererei Red "Mwanza". The Neochromi Nigrican Red tail Mwanza look nice too. I will work on pics for you guys tonight. They are showing awesome colors already.


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## jts_aquatics

Here are the wild Pundamilia Nyererei Red West Mwanza



















A pic of the Neochromis Nigricans Red Tail Mwanza

Its not that great but will work on getting more



























I also forgot to mention I also got in the Wild Haplochromis sp rock kribensis red mwanza gulf as well.


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## samaki

:thumb: Nice fishes specially the nyererei
xris


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## NASCAR2

Very nice. How did the rock kribs turn out. I had a hard time turning them down when Dave made his order.


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## jts_aquatics

Here are the rock krib pics


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## ds1196

Very nice! I wish I had picked up some of them as well.


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## alanastar

http://cichlidnews.com/issues/2007oct/whatsnew.html
put me in my place


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## nick a

There you go JT:


> A second nyererei-like species recently imported, *Pundamilia pundamilia *from Makobe Island. This fish sports scarlet anal and caudal fins, and alternating gray and black irregular barring on its flanks.


Now, even Old World is calling them P. p's


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## dln78

Wow! Finally getting exports back in from Lake Victoria. Never thought I'd see this day. We're so blessed. :thumb:


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## Fogelhund

Some fine looking Vic's there JT... Love to get my hands on some at some point... Probably won't have time/space until November though.


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## taeniopareius

How do these fishes turn out to be? All _rufus_?



ds1196 said:


> Here are some of the fish that came in as "red pseudonigricans"
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> There are obviously at least 3 (possibly 4) distinctly different males in the group of 12 that I got. The most frustrating thing is the females. I don't know which males to put them with. Right now, I've giving the females a small amount of methyl-testosterone daily to get them to show a little color so I can match them to the proper males. Even then, I'll have them separated, but I still won't know what species they are!


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## ds1196

I really can't tell what they all are yet, and with some of them, I may never be able to tell. Out of the 12 that I got, only 1 of them is a female. Just last night, I got another 10 of the "rufus", and there are 4 females in that group. We'll see what happens. I also got 10 of the nyererei, which look absolutely amazing, and 10 of the "red tail nigricans". I'm not sure what they are yet either. I think they may be Mbipia mbipi, but I'm not too sure yet. I'll post new pics later.


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## jts_aquatics

ds1196 said:


> I really can't tell what they all are yet, and with some of them, I may never be able to tell. Out of the 12 that I got, only 1 of them is a female. Just last night, I got another 10 of the "rufus", and there are 4 females in that group. We'll see what happens. I also got 10 of the nyererei, which look absolutely amazing, and 10 of the "red tail nigricans". I'm not sure what they are yet either. I think they may be Mbipia mbipi, but I'm not too sure yet. I'll post new pics later.


Dave, I have been looking at Ole's book and comparing the neochromis I received and they almost appear to be the H. "black nigricans" Chamagati Island, but mine dont have any OB females. I know they are not the H nigricans by looking at Ole's photos in his book.

Once my Neochromis Nigrican red tail's get moved up into a higher tank I can take some better photos of them.

The Makobe's look sweet dont they dave?

I was thinking about ordering some of the red pseudonigricans as well. Did you get all the same specie in this batch?

Let me know. All four species I bought appear to be correct with each other. On the Makobe Island's I have 9 males and 3 females out of the 12 in that group and with the rock kribs I have 19 total and I think 15 males in that group. I will have to get to you on that one.


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## samaki

Hi A good friend of mine did received some L.rufus and for him(he keeps vics for almost 20 years now) it's the L.rubripinis and not the rufus, he put his blue males in front of L.rubripinis he has and didn't saw any differences in coloration nor morphology.
xris


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## taeniopareius

From OD _rubripinnis _should be able to be distinguish from _rufus_ by the following:

_rubripinnis_ = enlarged cephalic pore, female silvery metallic base color, male with rusty dorsum.
_rufus_ = not enlarged cephalic pore, female brassy, male with red on lower half of the body.

Are these observable on live fish? And how aggressive is _Lithochromis_ compared to _nyererei_ and "rock kribensis"?


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## wsa88

Just got my P. Nyererei West Mwanza Red. From Dave's Rare Fish. I have to say that this is the nicest fish I've ever seen. So many great colors especially the red near the dorsal. I will post some pictures up once I get some things done around the house. I have to say thank you to Dave, very nice guy and very knowable . Will definitely order from him again in the future. I hope that collection from Lake Victoria continues.


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## jts_aquatics

I have some updated pics of my fish.

Here is the P. sp pundamilia I received. They are looking alot nicer now.




































Also here are the ones that came in as Neochromis Nigricans Red Tail Mwanza

(Whats everyones thought on this, I know the pics aint all that great. Its hard to take some of these guys since they get so black)









































































I will keep trying to get better pics of them thou.


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## jts_aquatics

I forgot to mention that these Neochromis Nigricans are some thick bodied fish. I would guess about 7/8"-1" thick at a min. They have a nice wide mouth as well. These are well built males...thats for sure.


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## nick a

The first pic of P. p.s (and the fish :thumb: ) are stunning!


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## samaki

The red tail nigricans looks like a fish caught in the Kenyan shores at Mbita by Y .Fermon
xris


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## nick a

Added a group of the P.nyererei. Very attractive fish--wish I had more info on the collection site tho. The minimal blue showing in the dorsal is only seen in pics--in person it is completely red.


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## jts_aquatics

GAS says his Neo's are Mbipia Mbipi .... If thats the case I stripped my female tonight and have about 40-50 fry. Hopefully yours will spawn for you Greg.... Good Luck


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## nick a

One's holding for him now--we're wishing her happy holding :lol: Congrats on yours!
You had any activity yet with the P. nyererei's? None for me so far. I'd like to work out a fry swap with you sometime in the future (when mine actually make some :roll: ). I think it's be great to mix the F1 groups as much as possible and keep this beautiful strain as strong and clean as possible. :thumb:


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## jts_aquatics

I counted my fry today. All are still alive. I have 43 wigglers.

No success yet on the Pundamila nyererei makobe's or the P pundamila makobe's either 

trades would be great with fry to keep them as pure as possible. Wish we knew all who received them thou so we know who has what and where. Also that will help us track down the sellers claiming they have F1's when they dont.

We all know that is going to happen once we start parting with F1 fry from them on the boards and online stores.


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## 6stang9

I know www.unclenedsfishfactory.com got some wild nyererei. You can contact him for more info. I'm sure he would want to keep the strains pure also. He's located in Millis, MA


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## Utakaguy

Hello everyone. I obtained a trio of supposed _Neochromis nigricans_ from the same group as you guys. It is my opinion also that the fish are _Haplochromis_ sp. "velvet black" or _Mbipia mbipia_ (Not sure of the distinction between the two). I don't have Seehausen's book, but I do have The Cichlids Yearbook Vol. 4 which describes the above-mentioned species. In addition to differences in color, he mouth of this species is more terminal than the subterminal mouth characteristic of _N. nigricans_. They are very robust fish and the males can hand out a real butt-kicking to other fish in the tank. One of my females is currently holding. They are maintained in a 4 foot tank with 8 adult _Pyxichromis orthostoma_. I look forward to raising some F1 individuals of this species. I apologize for the poor quality photos. 
























Adam Heinrich
[email protected]


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## samaki

Hi It seems that this fish is Mbipia mbipi, this fish disdappeared from the european hobby 4 to 5 years ago.
xris 
H.sp"velvet black" is the species called Neochromis greenwoodi, H.sp"copper black" is Mbipia mbipi.


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## nick a

Great looking fish & your pics show it quite well. The coloration makes it difficult to get shots sometimes.

A VERY nice shot IMO taken by Jennifer Prince at a gathering at the GAS house last week. 







[/url]


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## Utakaguy

I would also be interested in doing some fry-swapping with these fish. It is my intention to keep successive generations of this fish and maintain the genetic integrity. Let me know if you all are interested.
[email protected]


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## jts_aquatics

I have fry growing of both the P pundamilia Makobe Islands and the Mbipia Mbipi as well.

I since have passed both groups onto another die hard victorian fanatic and he will work with them as well.

But as of right now my fry are about 1/2"-3/4"

Fogulhound.... just hit me up when you can travel to my area sometime and I can get you some fry from my group.


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## Dave

Nice pics and great updates. Makes me seriously consider getting some Vics.


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## Fogelhund

jts_aquatics said:


> Fogulhound.... just hit me up when you can travel to my area sometime and I can get you some fry from my group.


I've sent you a PM.... I'll be in Chesterfield soon, not sure how far that is from you.


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## jts_aquatics

Fogelhund said:


> jts_aquatics said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fogulhound.... just hit me up when you can travel to my area sometime and I can get you some fry from my group.
> 
> 
> 
> I've sent you a PM.... I'll be in Chesterfield soon, not sure how far that is from you.
Click to expand...

Brett, Thats on the other side of the state. I have some of the Mbipia Mbipi's ready if your interested. The Pundamilia pundamilia makobe island's are not quite ready yet.
I sent you a pm back as well.


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## Utakaguy

No fry this time around. I have had a group of _Synodontis multipunctatus_ in the tank with the _Pyxichromis orthostoma_ in hopes of some parasitizing, but was unsuccessful for several months. I got the _M. mbipi_ and the first spawn all catfish, go figure. Another _M. mbipi_ was holding as of last night. This time I have the eggs tumbling in hopes to seperate out any potential catfish fry that hatch first and try to devour my cichlid's young.


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## cscott711

I am looking to move some of my wild caught makobe males that came in on the Fall 2007 order. Any interest?


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## Just Ron

I have also gotten some of these fish, but the male to female ratio was very poor.

Anyway, I am wondering if anyone has at least a female of the P. pundamilia as I have only males at 5". PS mine were sold as orange side Python Island, they appear to be the same as in this thread.

I also received fish listed as the Neochromis sp Blue scraper, but again only males.

Did anyone get the Neochromis Red-Orange piebalds, if so, how did yours look?


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## jts_aquatics

Just Ron said:


> I have also gotten some of these fish, but the male to female ratio was very poor.
> 
> Anyway, I am wondering if anyone has at least a female of the P. pundamilia as I have only males at 5". PS mine were sold as orange side Python Island, they appear to be the same as in this thread.
> 
> I also received fish listed as the Neochromis sp Blue scraper, but again only males.
> 
> Did anyone get the Neochromis Red-Orange piebalds, if so, how did yours look?


What P. pundamilia are you referring to?


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## CaliforniaCichlids

I have also bought some of these wild Victorians from Old World.
Pundamilia Nyererei Mwanza
Pseudonigricans Red

I believe the Pseudonigricans to be Blue, I spawned a trio and have the first male of F1 coloring to look just like his father, I am confident I have correct female with male.
photo of wild male can be seen here, http://www.californiacichlids.com/files/DSCN36033.JPG compare it to Ole book page 132 pseudonigrican blue.
these were shipped as red but dosent look anything like a red
:fish:


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