# NORTH american native species tank?



## Hoosier Tank

*Would you keep a native species set-up?*​
Have done it or currently have one2740.91%Have thought about doing one.2537.88%Haven't given it any thought1421.21%It's blasphemy and I should be banned from forum for even thinking of this.00.00%


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## Hoosier Tank

I live a 25 acre lake and for years have want to have a "Native" set-up tank. I have searched for information and was wondering if there are any others here who have done this. Or is it considered sacrilegious??
I will soon have access to all the juvies I will ever need when I rake the moss from the beach. Typically about this size.









My stocklist could include any of the following Centrarchidae:
*Lepomis gibbosus Pumpkinseed sunfish*









*Lepomis cyanellus Green Sunfish*









*Lepomis megalotis â€" Longeared sunfish*









*Lepomis macrochirus Bluegill*









*Pomoxis nigromaculatus, Black Crappie*









and as a bottom feeding substrate cleanerâ€¦
*Ictalurus melas, Black Bullhead*









To some of our members from "across the pond" these may seem unusal, but in my area they are common everyday fish caught by the thousands for sports / recreation.


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## Aqua D

Great idea! I was talking with a friend (who likes to fish), he doesn't have any tanks but said it would be cool to have a tank with local fish. I am trying to talk him into setting up a BIG tank and keep some! I will let ya know if he buys the idea. Let me know if you set something up!


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## Number6

none of those are cichlids... so how is this a N.A. cichlid tank? or was that tongue in cheek?


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## BlackShark11k

I used to have a 20 gallon tank with four juvenile bluegill, one juvenille crappie, and one mid-adult bullhead(Now they're all in a 700 gal pond with four butterfly koi and two shubunkan goldfish). But none of these are cichlids. . .The only native North American cichlid is the texas cichlid.


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## Hoosier Tank

Number6 said:


> none of those are cichlids... so how is this a N.A. cichlid tank? or was that tongue in cheek?


OMG now that IS embarrasing, I honestly thought and was told by my LFS they were!  
Wonder if I can go back and edit the title...


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## BlackShark11k

I was too- only I didn't buy it due to the fact I had read yesterday they were NOT! He was the same guy that pronounced cichlids, sitchlids.


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## redzebra24

Bass pro shop in Gurnee Il has a HUGE indoor tank with native fish. It look Great. There is only 1 pic but you get a general idea http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/store ... =000000000


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## Afishionado

How big an aquarium would you need to successfully keep those species long term?


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## Fogelhund

Afishionado said:


> How big an aquarium would you need to successfully keep those species long term?


Pretty big. They can be pretty aggressive and territorial. It largely depends on which species, and how many you plan to keep.


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## co-photo

Centrarchids are extremely tough and can tolerate most water parameters, thus do well in aquariums. They are similar to cichlids, particularly mbuna, in that they hover above their claimed territory to guard it. As stated above they get rather big, and are very territorial, so Iâ€™d say at least a 6 foot tank to keep just a few full sized adults.

They'll eat just about anything too.


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## Hoosier Tank

If they start getting too big, I can just walk out the backdoor and exchange them. 8)


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## co-photo

Hoosier Tank said:


> If they start getting too big, I can just walk out the backdoor and exchange them. 8)


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## Joea

I'd check to see how legal a tank like this would be as well.

It's illegal (at least here in Canada) to keep native fish in captivity without special licences. I once thought about setting up a Small-mouth Bass tank with a Northern Ontario Lake theme but was told by a friend who's a game warden that I wouldn't be able to afford the fines.


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## Afishionado

Hoosier Tank said:


> If they start getting too big, I can just walk out the backdoor and exchange them. 8)


Yep, releasing them could cost you your car, house and firstborn around here... (well maybe not quite THAT much, but you get the picture...)


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## BlackShark11k

In fact, i just caught two pumpkin seed with a net, which are now subsiding in an aquarium of mine. They're quite pretty, and fairly active.


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## Fogelhund

Joea said:


> I'd check to see how legal a tank like this would be as well.
> 
> It's illegal (at least here in Canada) to keep native *GAME* fish in captivity without special licences. I once thought about setting up a Small-mouth Bass tank with a Northern Ontario Lake theme but was told by a friend who's a game warden that I wouldn't be able to afford the fines.


Fixed that for you. :wink:


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## fishonthebrain

I've kept several natives over the past few years. Large mouth bass, several diff sunfish, bull heads, and also lots of different top swimmers, flag fish misquito fish and others.

To say the least they larger species are very messy fish once to a decent size, but not any worse than your oscars or jags. They also seem to take well to commercial foods, flakes pellets and what not. The only problems i really ever had was initial die offs due to disease, and outgrowing tanks.

Good luck!

Jess


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## Hoosier Tank

I never considered the fact that it may be regulated / illegal. I will check with the fish cops before attempting this. Thanks for the heads up. I would think that if you had a fishing license you would be safe. After all with one of those, you can KILL & EAT them for crying out loud!


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## Tanganyikaguy

I kept a small darter tank for a while. I set up a 15 gallon with a large filter to give the water lots of oxygen. then I went down to a creek down the street from my house at night with a flashlight and caught a couple of species of madtom catfish and 2 or 3 species of darter.

they all did great in that tank on a diet of frozen mosquito larva and bloodworms, and some live blackworms every once in a while.

yes, there are regulations against keeping gamefish. but in most states, sunfish and bluegills and bullheads are not game fish. but crappie and bass are.

I talked with the Missouri and the Texas fish and game people, and as long as the gamefish is legal size and it is caught in a legal way (hook and line) it doesnt matter what you do with it. but you can get in trouble for keeping undersize or illegally caught gamefish. be sure to check your local laws.

keeping big sunfish is just like keeping big central/southern american cichlids. they are messy and agressive. the green sunfish gets pretty large. but the redear and longear sunfish dont get too big, and they have really nice coloration.


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## imusuallyuseless

Hoosier Tank, I've been considering the very same thing for quite some time. I do have a question though. Do you own the land you'd be getting these fish from, or is it public land???


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## Hoosier Tank

Of the 28 acres I own about 3 of it is "lake front property". HOWEVER, here in Indiana, the state owns the water. The exception being if you own all of the property surrounding a lake, then it is considered a "private lake". There is no public access to it though. I would be standing on the beach rakeing the moss from the lake to the shore so technically I guess the answer would be yes.
Still I am going to contact the DNR for regulations.


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## wolfie8000

I have had my 75g native tank up an running for almost two years. They are great fish and have a ton of personality. Here is a link to my pics. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=141774&highlight=

If you need any kind of info on native fish check out this forum or don't be afraid to ask me.
http://forum.nanfa.org/


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## Hoosier Tank

Yes, Yes, YES! "wolfie8000" you got it, that's what I am talking about. And in a 75g as well. What size are these, full grown? I knew that their colors would show under the right lights as well. I appreciate the links (hope you don't mind the "copy / paste")


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## BlackShark11k

Hey, that looks like the pumpkinseed I just obtained. It looks like 5-7 inches to me.


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## wolfie8000

That picture is one of my longears. It is currently 4 to 5 inches long, they seem to grow slowly. The largest I have seen is about 8". Pumpkinseeds are also a very colorful sunfish but seem to be more aggresive.
Here is a recent shot of the same longear, for some reason the camera focused different and is showing alot of red now.


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## chapman76

Man I love those. I really wouldn't mind a native tank with those. I just wish I knew how to get some longears. I've never actually seen one in person.


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## wolfie8000

chapman76 said:


> Man I love those. I really wouldn't mind a native tank with those. I just wish I knew how to get some longears. I've never actually seen one in person.


There are a few places here that can you can buy some from http://forum.nanfa.org/index.php?s=2a9455cf3d1eb7171e209e0a2e8ff132&showforum=220
I have ordered from Ohio valley Natives and he does a very good at shipping and taking care of his fish.

You could also by a fishing license and try to catch a few, just make sure it is legal where you live.


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## BlackShark11k

Really? It's not a pumpkinseed? Then I just caught myself a longear! They look exactly like yours. I also just caught an 8'' green sunfish and a crappie(which i let go)...


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## wolfie8000

Here is a picture of a Pumpkinseed.









Here is how to identify them. (copy and pasted from another website.)  
The pumpkinseed is a very deep-bodied fish, almost disclike, with several spines in the dorsal fin. The lateral view varies from golden brown to olive on top to irregular, wavy, interconnecting blue-green lines in the middle, to bronze or red-orange on the ventral surface. The side of head and body have blue, emerald, or green reflections. The opercle, or gill-cover, is mostly black with a trailing tip that is black and rimmed with a small halfmoon of bright red.

Here is a picture of mine. He's only about 3".









An 8" green sunfish most have looked awesome. I can't wait till mine gets that big.
I would love to see a pic of your longear, they are one of the best looking sunfish.


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## BlackShark11k

Okay, I'll show you the picture of the long ear(or maybe it is a pumpkinseed). I'd show you now, but it's on my other computer. Hey, I was just fishing and i caught a lot of smallmouth, perch, and this invasive species called gobi. I kept two really little gobi and a small perch, which i want to keepin a 75 gallon set-up with my long ears, a green sunfish, and a bullhead.

Anyone know much about gobi's?

I'm hoping to catch some more small fish too.


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## wolfie8000

Don't know much about Gobi's but I do know that any small, minnow like, fish you put in that tank is going to be eaten sooner or later. I am guessing that it is a yellow perch that you caught. I have always wanted to keep one but never had room. They can reach up to 12" and might take some time to get off of live food. Please post pics of your other fish to, I would love to see them, either here or in the photo section.

Wolfie


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## BlackShark11k

Trust me, the gobys will not get eaten. They can grow to a foot and will kill and eat smaller fish. They are a huge problem in the great lakes were they compete vigorously with large gamefish. Gobi's prey on anything, I even caught one with a smaller gobi in it's mouth :lol: Areas infested with gobi's have a lack of other fish too. 
As soon as i get home I'll upload the pictures from the other computer to this one for you guys. I'm also hoping on catching some small mouth here, the wind has died down.

Art


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## wolfie8000

Did not know that about Goby's. You should join us at http://forum.nanfa.org/ There is alot of info about Natives


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## tropheus duboisi breeder

If you have ever seen a Rock Bass, it looks very similar to a green terror. They get about the same size. whos gonna find out that you took a couple baby fish from the lake? Just don't invite any wildlife and game officers in your house :lol:


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## BlackShark11k

:lol: I just when down to look for rock bass, but didn't find any.

Wolfie, I mine as well join that forum.

These gobies are not native too.


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## tropheus duboisi breeder

rock bass are native to wisconsin, the don't live in the rocks :lol:


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## BlackShark11k

:lol: Well, I'm going fishing tommarrow, hope I can catch something. I think I'd have better luck off a boat, All I'm catching off the peir is perch, goby, and the occassional shiner that sticks itself in the hook :lol:


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## tropheus duboisi breeder

goby


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## BlackShark11k

What about goby's. I've got some babies in a bucket right now, and I'm tellin' you, they can jump!!! A three incher just launched itsef a whole foot out of the bucket onto the floor- luckily i was eating incredibley unhealthy foots two feet away! :lol:


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## tropheus duboisi breeder

can u get a pick or find one online. im interested


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## Matt B.

i dont know about the US but in Canada gobies are a HUGE problem in the great lakes...
to add on to what artemis said about them eating anything ...its true...my cousin caught one and he decided to dissect it to see what it eats...we found about 10 whole zebra muscles in its stomach and this thing was only about 7"

oh ya and by the way in Canada, because they are not a native species, if you catch a goby it is illegal to throw it back...you have to kill it immediately... so i dont know if you will have any luck finding people who sell them as pets

and good luck with the native species tank i think it would look great (if its not illegal)

i wonder if there are any game wardens watching this topic waiting to arrest you if you catch any fish illegally :lol: have you noticed any wierd pizza delivery trucks sitting outside your house lately?? :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## tropheus duboisi breeder

zebra muscles are an epidemic in wisconsin :lol:


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## BlackShark11k

Yeah, I thought I'd throw some mussels in there to see if the gobies would eat 'em.

Since it's illegal to throw gobies back in the water, last year my uncle launched one of on a rocket! :lol: Seriously!!! I have it on video!!! 

I'm going out in a boat today to see if I can catch some Rock and SMB.

Artemis


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## cichlid_baby

Hoosier Tank said:


> I never considered the fact that it may be regulated / illegal. I will check with the fish cops before attempting this. Thanks for the heads up. I would think that if you had a fishing license you would be safe. After all with one of those, you can KILL & EAT them for crying out loud!


Transporting "live" native fishes is illegal in most states, per the DNR, unless with a special permit.


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## tropheus duboisi breeder

not if they are legal limit. large and small mouth bass are 14in in wisconsin


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## Michael_Destron

My advice would be to keep smaller fish in it, once they grow big tossem in the lake and repeat. I've always really wanted a native lake looking tank too.


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## Hoosier Tank

> My advice would be to keep smaller fish in it, once they grow big tossem in the lake and repeat.


 I usually find them in the moss that I clean from the beach in late July or August. That gives me a little time to check with the local DNR and discuss my intentions... anonomusly :wink:


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## BlackShark11k

:lol:


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## Number6

Michael_Destron said:


> My advice would be to keep smaller fish in it, once they grow big tossem in the lake and repeat.


 Not very good advice I'm afraid. no fish should ever be released into any body of water except for the original one it came from, and then only if you know that it has not been exposed to pathogens that it would not normally have come into contact with.

So, if you have tropical fish in other aquariums, and share any equipment, this is not a wise move (to release fish).

It would be better for the Lake if you killed the fish once it outgrew your tank. If you are against killing fish for little reason, then leave the wild fish alone in the first place.


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## BlackShark11k

Michael_Destron said:


> My advice would be to keep smaller fish in it, once they grow big tossem in the lake and repeat. I've always really wanted a native lake looking tank too.


Actually, I was just reading, that even with native fish, it's illegal in some areas...


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## wolfie8000

Michael_Destron said:


> My advice would be to keep smaller fish in it, once they grow big tossem in the lake and repeat. I've always really wanted a native lake looking tank too.


This is not good advice at all. You should never release any fish that has been kept in a aquarium, there are many reasons that I am not going to go into detail about. Please research any fish before you try to keep the fish. If you can't house the fish when its full grown do not keep it.


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## BlackShark11k

I just saw a salmon at the peir. I threw out the line, and caught a stupid goby again :x Salmon got away...

But i did catch some more baby gobies!


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## tropheus duboisi breeder

can u put a picture on of these gobies?


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## Hoosier Tank

The cool part is when I started this thread, I thought it would be soon dismissed as "Miscellaneous Ramblings". Actually thought some would select #4. Little did I know others had the same thoughts and had actually undertook such a venture 8)


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## BlackShark11k

Sure, I'll upload them soon.

Another guy was fishing with the pier too, and there was a MASSIVE pile of caked dry adjult gobies!


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## tropheus duboisi breeder

cool


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## Number6

Hoosier Tank said:


> Little did I know others had the same thoughts and had actually undertook such a venture 8)


 My first aquarium was minnows and Pumpkin seed sunfish... I began this hobby after fishing and wanted to look at these fish in more than a bucket... bucket became 10g, became a 20g...


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## tropheus duboisi breeder

well artemis1 are you on a river fed lake. because there are a huge problem but only are in river fed lakes. Our lake (Lauderdale Lakes) is spring fed and 2nd cleanest lake in wisconsin and has no gobys what so ever, same as lake geneva. so are you on a river fed lake?


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## TheShocker

I want to do this so bad.....


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## BlackShark11k

tropheus duboisi breeder said:


> well artemis1 are you on a river fed lake. because there are a huge problem but only are in river fed lakes. Our lake (Lauderdale Lakes) is spring fed and 2nd cleanest lake in wisconsin and has no gobys what so ever, same as lake geneva. so are you on a river fed lake?


I'm on Lake Michagen


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## tropheus duboisi breeder

yeah thats river fed. do you know where lauderdale lakes is or lake geneva?


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## BlackShark11k

Not off the top of my head, but if I got out a map I could probably find it.


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## Fishguy28

I could have swore that the keeping transport of Round Gobies dead or alive was prohibited in the whole of their introduced range and had to be destroyed immediately . At least thats the law here in Michigan,so you should really look into local laws about them and another thing is they need temps similar to that of the Great lakes really cold at least 60 degrees to survive. I totally disagree with a person keeping them unless they were willing to destroy them when they eventually became a problem in the tank or got too big.


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## tropheus duboisi breeder

Who ever the original poster is maybe instead of a native tank you should do a native pond, this would let you keep bigger fish, such as bass, which could be ordered by a stocking company. this place goes to il, In, and wi. http://www.keystonehatcheries.com/default.asp?id=6 and they have fish.


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## Fishguy28

The pond is probably the best suggestion, as most native fish can get quite large even Sunfish which could reach 16 inches according to Audobon. Which would be absolutely feesable in an aquarium setting and most Sunfish keep such large territories during the spawn( up to 18 inches in diameter just for a nest)that it makes them hard to keep in normal household aquaria.


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## justflow1983

Yellow perch would probably be a better native tank species than a sunfish, I catch them often in the Adirondacks and because of the cold water they're rarely above about 8 inches. They're really beautiful too, with red, green, and yellow on them.


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## FishandFire

Started a native tank 2 weeks ago. Went seining in a few creeks around here. Didn't keep anything that will grow too large. Left the bass and bluegills there. Don't know the scientific names, but I have the following in there: fatheads, southern redbellied dace, darters, and red shiners. This is a little different than what a lot of people are talking about here, but they are fun to watch. They love to swim against the powerhead flow. Here's a couple really bad pics.


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## Hoosier Tank

tropheus duboisi breeder said:


> Who ever the original poster is maybe instead of a native tank you should do a native pond, this would let you keep bigger fish, such as bass, which could be ordered by a stocking company. this place goes to il, In, and wi. http://www.keystonehatcheries.com/default.asp?id=6 and they have fish.


"Original poster" here, there reasoning behind my thinking was I already have a small lake outside my back door. I have wanted to have a native species tank set-up for a while for display purposes. Glad I started this thread, I do not intend to keep the fish to grow to full size due to the tank size requirements but learned the legal formalities of reintroducing them to the lake. It's still rolling around inside my head ... soon be time to start finding the juvies when I rake the beach moss. Kind of unnerving how I take such great care for the health and wellbeing of my Cichlids, but can walk out with a fly rod and slaughter such beautiful fish that are native to this area. (Yea, right...like I'm ever gonna stop fishing! :wink: )


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## wolfie8000

Fishguy28 said:


> The pond is probably the best suggestion, as most native fish can get quite large even Sunfish which could reach 16 inches according to Audobon. Which would be absolutely feesable in an aquarium setting and most Sunfish keep such large territories during the spawn( up to 18 inches in diameter just for a nest)that it makes them hard to keep in normal household aquaria.


Crappies are about the only sunfish that would reach 16 inches. Most sunfish stay under 12 inches with some not reaching more than 8". Yellow perch can also be kept in an aquarium and make good tankmates with the larger sunfish.


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## BlackShark11k

Fishguy28 said:


> I could have swore that the keeping transport of Round Gobies dead or alive was prohibited in the whole of their introduced range and had to be destroyed immediately . At least thats the law here in Michigan,so you should really look into local laws about them and another thing is they need temps similar to that of the Great lakes really cold at least 60 degrees to survive. I totally disagree with a person keeping them unless they were willing to destroy them when they eventually became a problem in the tank or got too big.


Doesn't really matter anymore, they took they "death jump," and the perch didn't survive the drive from Door County...


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## demonsoni

Here is my post on similar topic.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... p?t=177296

We caught one black bullhead, in the month we have been sampling so good luck finding one, better luck finding a good aquarium sized one. my yellow bullhead is about 4 1/2 inches. as for all your centrarchids some of them will not go good together. My boss says that the green sunfsh act like wussies around the bluegill in a tank. The longears are also hard to find I believe, depends on the watershed I guess. As for the crappie you will need a big tank, I saw one in captivity in an indoor pond that was probably around 100+ gallons. So it can be done.


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## LJ

> Kind of unnerving how I take such great care for the health and wellbeing of my Cichlids, but can walk out with a fly rod and slaughter such beautiful fish that are native to this area. (Yea, right...like I'm ever gonna stop fishing! )


There's no reason why you can't be passionate about keeping cichlids and also be passionate about fishing. I'm never gonna stop fishing either!

I tried a bluegill set-up about 5 years ago, things were going well for a while. Then the filter died one day when I was away at work, and so too did the bluegill.


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## Hoosier Tank

OP Here once again!
I am in the process of setting up a 180g tank with a wet/dry... If for some reason my Mbuna go belly-up one day  I am definately doing this.... Hey the price is right for the restocking :lol: Bull-head fry are common in the moss on the beach, but I agree Crappies are too big.


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## MetalHead06351

I did a tank setup like this with a 55g a long time ago. I had a brown bullhead(lived 7 years) and 2 pumpkinseeds. I eventually dumped the pumpkinseeds back in the pond when they got big, but the catfish stayed around for a while. Great idea getting a bigger tank.
The best way i've found to get very small catfish it to wade through a shallow stream with a net and flip over rocks and wood. When the catfish are under an inch, they don't swim very fast and are very easy to catch, i've even done it with my hands tons of times.


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## demonsoni

MetalHead06351 said:


> I did a tank setup like this with a 55g a long time ago. I had a brown bullhead(lived 7 years) and 2 pumpkinseeds. I eventually dumped the pumpkinseeds back in the pond when they got big, but the catfish stayed around for a while. Great idea getting a bigger tank.
> The best way i've found to get very small catfish it to wade through a shallow stream with a net and flip over rocks and wood. When the catfish are under an inch, they don't swim very fast and are very easy to catch, i've even done it with my hands tons of times.


ever take a spine doing this?

on a side note I just finished building my stand and filled my 55 for my yellow bullhead, 3 warmouth, orange spotted sunfish, and golden shiner.


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## demonsoni

demonsoni said:


> on a side note I just finished building my stand and filled my 55 for my yellow bullhead, 3 warmouth, orange spotted sunfish, and golden shiner.


pics are here

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... p?t=177296


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## MetalHead06351

no spines yet, at that size I don't think they could do a whole lot. :lol:


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## Guest

Hoosier Tank said:


> OP Here once again!
> I am in the process of setting up a 180g tank with a wet/dry... If for some reason my Mbuna go belly-up one day  I am definately doing this.... Hey the price is right for the restocking :lol: Bull-head fry are common in the moss on the beach, but I agree Crappies are too big.


Be sure to post stocking lists, photos of the fish after being caught, photos of the tank setup and decor and the fish in it and reacting to it...

Out of curiosity do you nuke them with meds when you bring them in? Wouldn't the stress from being in a large lake and then being put in a limited swimming space leave them vulnerable to disease? Or is that factor eliminated by the fact that they are juvenile fish and are used to a lifetime of swimming in a lake?

And hey, if you feed them all natural foods from outside and use ChlorAmX (FDA approved dechlorinator) you can grow them up to eat them! :lol:

~Ed


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## SLIGHTLY STOOPID

I have had native fish before but I would *NEVER* hold a fish with dry hands.


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## Hoosier Tank

SLIGHTLY STOOPID said:


> I have had native fish before but I would *NEVER* hold a fish with dry hands.


True statement, not my hand...or even my pic, just an example of the size I can get. :thumb:


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