# A little advice plz



## darkone82 (Sep 6, 2011)

ok, so i decided to do a 60gallon Mbuna tank. I went down to a local river and found about 10-15 medium-large flat stones and brought them back home for cleaning. the first place i saw said to use a mild soap or bleach for cleaning so i used dawn dish soap (figuring that it was probably more mild than even most hand soaps considering it's what they use to clean up wildlife after oil spills and whatnot) to clean them. about the time i was putting the last bunch of rocks into the tub with the soapy water, i ran across another thread that said not to use anything other than plain old water. does this mean that the 150 lbs. of river rock i just hiked out are useless, or can i soak the soap chemicals out of the rocks? thanks for any help i can get in advance as this is my first "real" fish tank, *** been reading up on mbuna and their possible tankmates for the last month so i would be crushed to get em home and have em die a little while later b/c i was an idiot that put unsafe rocks in their tank.


----------



## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Some people bleach the rocks and have good success, some people wash the rocks and have good success, some people just dump the rocks into their tanks as they come from the river and they also have good success. It probably doesn't matter much, unless you have a rock that got sprayed with insecticides the day before you picked it up and you didn't clean it, or you leave tons of excess antibacterial soap on a rock when you put it in the tank. In all likelihood you are over-thinking this, and your future fish will be just fine with the nice clean rocks you have now :thumb:

For what it's worth, I have never used dish detergent to clean rocks, but I use it frequently in my fish room to clean smaller tanks to get them ready for use after a time in storage. A good scrub with dish detergent, a good rinse, fill the tank up with dechlorinated water, dump in an established sponge filter, and any 10G is ready to grow out some fry


----------



## darkone82 (Sep 6, 2011)

kk, thanks
*** been soaking them in an 18gallon bucket for about 2 days now, changing the water out in the morning. was afraid my sandstone would be useless and i really dont wanna go back to the river again. oh and btw the river i got them from is actually low right now so none of the rocks have been under water for about a week or two, not sure that makes any difference but i did scrub off all the dirt and algea that had been growing on them


----------



## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Be aware that one of the hazards of collecting from rivers is the snail eggs that seem to be able to live nearly forever even out of water. I favor the bleaching just to keep from having snails again. Once you have snails overrunning the tank and fish present, it is nearly impossible to kill the snails without a total teardown.

A snail or two might be interesting but an invasion is not:


----------



## darkone82 (Sep 6, 2011)

ouch, looks like you went from a fish tank to a snail tank, one good thing about getting the rocks from my local river is that the snails arent as abundant in our red water for some reason, maybe the normal flow of the river being fairly swift or they may just not do well in that type of water, i did however have to clean what looked like mud nests off the few that were still slightly submerged and inside were little red worm-like critters. but, being the product of some serious OCD, i went on a genocide mission with those guys, still gonna keep an eye on the rocks and keep changin the water out for at least the rest of the week just in case tho. also thanks for the snail reminder, something else to keep me from sleepin at night lol


----------



## darkone82 (Sep 6, 2011)

well, i went thru cleaning my rocks and found that every piece of sandstone has some form of trace metal or another in it, out of the 40 or so rocks *** found so far, i have around 10 left that didnt react to vinegar or have metal in them. im thinking of going with a bunch of cichlid stones along with the ones i have left, i think i might be able to still make it look natural even with the cichlid stones in there, ill post a pic once i have the tank set up


----------



## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

darkone82 said:


> well, i went thru cleaning my rocks and found that every piece of sandstone has some form of trace metal or another in it, out of the 40 or so rocks I've found so far, i have around 10 left that didnt react to vinegar or have metal in them. im thinking of going with a bunch of cichlid stones along with the ones i have left, i think i might be able to still make it look natural even with the cichlid stones in there, ill post a pic once i have the tank set up


It's ok for rocks to have metals in them, generally, with just one exception. And the fizz test means only that it'll buffer water. The 'fizz' test and 'metal in the rocks' are two common myths about aquarium rocks. See Suitability of Rocks. I'd guess all you have are perfectly ok.

And, bleach to rid them of snail eggs, never soaps. Bleach them, then give them a good scrubbing and rinse and they should be fine. Either let them dry thoroughly to rid them of chlorine or soak them in water that's been given a double dose of dechlor. Not a bad idea in your case just to make sure there's no sign of foaming from soap.


----------



## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

The fizz test has always seemed rather odd to me. To reject a rock because it fizzes is missing some pretty good rocks. Remember of the old science class and bases and acids. Vinegar is acidic and limestone is an alkaline( base). Mix them together and you should expect fizzing. Nothing wrong with the rock, the test just says it is limestone! About half the rocks in this end of the world will fizz. If you are in NE Oklahoma, there is a good chance you may find iron,zinc or lead in the rocks. No big deal unless you let them go a couple decades between water changes! It doesn't seem to kill the fish in Grand Lake.


----------



## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

+1 on everything Tim said.

Also, snails are not a problem as long as you don't overfeed. Think of it this way, snails eat the same stuff your fish eat, and even the slowest fish, when it is hungry, will be able to get to the food much faster than the fastest snail. In other words fish will always out-compete snails for food, unless there is excess food.


----------



## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

PfunMo said:


> The fizz test has always seemed rather odd to me. To reject a rock because it fizzes is missing some pretty good rocks. Remember of the old science class and bases and acids. Vinegar is acidic and limestone is an alkaline( base). Mix them together and you should expect fizzing. Nothing wrong with the rock, the test just says it is limestone! About half the rocks in this end of the world will fizz.


That's as good an explanation of how the fizz test works as you will ever find. The fizz test pre-dates the introduction of African cichlids into the hobby in the 1970s. Before that time, the overwhelming majority of aquarium fish came from habitats with soft water - mostly the Amazon basin. To maintain the soft water they require, people were cautioned not to use limestone in tanks, and the fizz test was the recommended method to identify limestone. The reason people still recommend the fizz test is that they don't understand how it works and what it does. They should read PfunMo's post :thumb:


----------



## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

I think we need to put together a reality TV show called Tank-Mythbusters. Fizzing rocks, watts per gallon, salt water to fresh water conversions - there are a lot of potential subjects!

Great explanation of the fizzing test.

Cheers


----------



## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

fmueller said:


> +1 on everything Tim said.
> 
> Also, snails are not a problem as long as you don't overfeed. Think of it this way, snails eat the same stuff your fish eat, and even the slowest fish, when it is hungry, will be able to get to the food much faster than the fastest snail. In other words fish will always out-compete snails for food, unless there is excess food.


I would agree overfeeding can encourage them, but for me snails thrive in the tanks with driftwood moreso than the ones without. That seems to be the difference maker, not how much is fed. A 30B, two fish, lightly fed, snail population is exploding because of the heavy use of mopani wood. Maybe they feed on it, don't know. And this population started a few years ago from a few rocks collected in a creek. Time to get a puffer.


----------



## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

prov356 said:


> for me snails thrive in the tanks with driftwood moreso than the ones without.


Actually, I have noticed that too. Since I have life plants in all my tanks and I never bleach anything, I also have snails in all my tanks. In tanks that are decorated with lots of wood I always seem to have a snail population that's visible, meaning if you have a close look, you can always find some snails somewhere in the tank. In tanks decorated exclusively with rocks, I only manage to spot a single snail once in a blue moon. In both cases the population tends to explode when overfed, which happens to me whenever I go on vacation and somebody else feeds my fish, or if I have fry in a tank and deliberately increase feeding to increase the growth rate. In both cases the population will go right back down by manually by removing excess snails and going back to regular feeding.

Tim - let me know if you want some assassin snails. You'll like them. Much better than a puffer


----------



## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Whether it is wood, plants, ferts for plants or overfeeding, I find it often is a set of circumstances which I want for the use I'm making of the tank at the time. Figuring in whether it will increase the snail problem is just one more factor that I feel I don't want. I'm finding that once they are there, I can use things to kill the snails but that just leaves me with tons of empty snail shells which clog the head on my syphon vac. Once I get plants actually growing in the substrate rather than cups as in the picture, I do not want to vac strong enough to get food debris out of the planted areas so overfeeding is pretty well assured in those spots. I don't think it takes much to overfeed a snail to the point he reproduces!


----------



## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Tim - let me know if you want some assassin snails.


Sure, I'll try a few. I notice the snails the most when I do water changes on the one tank with the large population. There must be hundreds of them on the tank back and sides. This is also the tank where the cherry shrimp population explodes. Free live food!

I've heard that anomalochromis thomasi will eat snails and I've been meaning to try that too.


----------



## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I just added a small pair of yo-yo loaches to a small tank and they seem to be working. It is not the tank I pictured but one with too many snails. The one in the picture has worked itself out. I got a tub full of mixed cichlids and stored them in that tank for about ten days. They have pretty well cleared the snails but they also pretty well wrecked the plants so now I can start over without much regret.


----------



## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

Neolamprologus Tretocephalus also are a good anti snail fish if you keep tangs.


----------



## cindi (Nov 25, 2009)

I keep getting the free snails from my LFS. I guess africans eat them. I even tried some in a baby hang on the side cube, had a few dozen and as soon as I thought they were viable, they were all eaten and gone. Maybe I'm lucky to not have a snail problem, but I would like a few to survive.

And on the rocks, I have used soap, but a good spray from your faucet sprayer and the soap is gone and they are good to go in the tank. Now I just scrub and rinse, never a problem.


----------



## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Just a small update for those thinking about snails! Don't trust that Malasian trumpet snails don't eat plants. If it is MTS that I have in my tank, I have news! I got these snails in my tank about a month ago and just noticed them recently as the gravel began to move in strange ways when the snails burrow underneath. I sold the whole tank of fish and have not fed for about 48 hours. Now look what I have!

On the tank walls









On the heater









On the plants









Eating the leaves!









Now tell me again about the folks who want to BUY these things!!!

These are just the tiny ones. I'm not waiting around until they get 3/4 inch long. I'm going nuclear on this tank and starting over before they get in the other tanks, too.


----------



## lochie407 (Sep 26, 2011)

i dont like the idea of using bleaches on the rocks that are going into my tank, i just boil some water and fill up a bucket and scrub down each rock with a bit of boiling water (i use cloves and a long brush so i dont get burnt), for those looking for a solution with out chemicals give that a go.

as fro the snail problem i liked that lads solution with the loaches , get a few of those guys and they seem to clean up a snail problem. andd.. haha when those god dam snails started to take over my old tank they come in on a live plant i bought from the store....... i have no idea how to get them off a plant with out hurting the plant?


----------



## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Getting them off the plants and also getting rid of the eggs pretty well requires chemical use, I think. As far as the objections to chemicals, you may be forgetting that the chemicals in question are already in most of the water we use. No difference in removing it from rocks than removing it from the water we add. The chlorine is the same and we deal with it all the time. A lack of understanding of how chlorine works leads to lots of confusion and needless fear of a product that many of us drink everyday. Like fire or water, it just takes a bit of knowledge and care about using it.

Use it, rinse it to dilute, and then dry it and it will be gone. Any residue left is just a tiny amount of salt.


----------



## lochie407 (Sep 26, 2011)

its just a solution with out chemicals, i think your forgetting that bleach is a little bit more powerful than the low amounts of chlorine found in drinking water, there is always that possibility that you forget to rinse off a rock or some thing and it might be enough to kill a fish. just saying.


----------



## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I'd not just rinse items, soak them in a double dose of dechlor. Dechlor deals instantly with any bleach residue. There's no reason to fear bleach. Many use it all the time.


----------



## darkone82 (Sep 6, 2011)

my first addition of fish, and they seem to be loving it, i got 5 M. esterae and an albino bushynose, so far they look like they're gettin along swimmingly

i tried to link a pic, but i can't figure out how to get it to link


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Post your pic on a free website like photobucket and then paste the img link they provide into the Cichlid-forum message body.


----------



## darkone82 (Sep 6, 2011)

there we go, how's that?


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'd add rocks...maybe four times as much as you have now.


----------



## darkone82 (Sep 6, 2011)

i have plans to add more rocks as im adding more fish, i actually have three pieces of red slate and another petrified wood piece to add to it, just waitin until i do my first partial water change this weekend
gonna try to get some P. "elongatus bee" on my next visit to the pet store, waitin on them to let me know if they can get any. also planning on gettin about 4-6 L. trewavasae and maybe 2 or 3 peacocks. and before anyone says that peacocks and mbuna can't get along, my fish guy has lots of tanks with both in them


----------



## CCichlids (Sep 27, 2011)

I bleached mine for 5 or 6 hours and then let them sit in normal water from my hose for another 5-6 hours. My peacocks are swimming fine so your mbuna should be ok! :thumb:


----------



## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

For those afraid to use bleach, I have a small test. Take a cup of bleach and smell of it. If it smells really strong, why is that? You are not snorting liquid into your nose so it must be a gas. If it is turning from liquid to gas does it make sense that it blows away as an item dries? If the chlorine is blowing away, do you still think it will kill your fish?


----------



## darkone82 (Sep 6, 2011)

i bleached all the rocks in those pics other than the Texas Holey Rock, which i bought from my cichlid/saltwater fish store. i just bleached for a day then changed out the water with a double dose of dechlorinator and let them set outside for a few hours, my fish dont act like they're bothered in the least by it.


----------



## CCichlids (Sep 27, 2011)

When diluted ( 1 part bleach to 10 parts water)i found it totally safe. THEN I soak it in normal water and maybe a spray with the hose. Forgot to mention the 1-10 ratio, whoops


----------



## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

It is not a critical point as either amount is safe if rinsed and dried well but 1- 10 would be really strong to me. I have worked with bleach and used it a lot for different things. The amount put in drinking water is more like a teaspoon per fifty gallons many places but that depends on the water source. They, of course, don't expect to be trying to kill snails and eggs so it seems reasonable to me to increase the bleach to a cup or so in fifty gallons. I add just a little more than my wife might use in the laundry and find it does the job. It really needs to be adjusted for how much dirt and organics the bleach has to deal with in the cleaning. If you dig up a holey rock and leave a bunch of dirt on it, you need more bleach to clean it well but if you wash the dirt off, less will do the job.


----------



## darkone82 (Sep 6, 2011)

i went to the LFS yesterday and got first pick on their newest shipment of cichlids, i got a pair of red peacocks and 4 rusties, also got some more holey rock and added the 3 pieces of slate i bought a few weeks back. although its not a great pick, you can see most of the male peacock in behind the central piece of holey rock, he's a bit shy right now


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

What do you have in the tank for stock now, and what are the dimensions of the tank? Peacocks with Metriaclima?

Peacocks are no exception to the harem breeder scenario among Malawi, keep an eye on both of them, but especially the female.


----------



## darkone82 (Sep 6, 2011)

i have 5 metriaclima, 4 rusties, and 2 peacocks, as far as the female goes tho, she is getting along well with all the fish, the male on the other hand gets picked on a little bit by the smallest of the metriaclima, i think they both like the biggest of the caves i built for them, i do however plan on getting a few more females later on, spent almost $200 on the peacocks and rusties and just didnt have anything left to get them, also, they store sells them in pairs, i'll have to have em special order me some females is all


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Metriaclima is an aggressive fish to keep with peacocks...watch them carefully.


----------



## darkone82 (Sep 6, 2011)

i have, they really dont do much to each other, they act a lot more like little puppies, nippin at each other but never really do any kind of harm, but ill definitely keep an eye on my peacock, i did not pay $75 for my red zebras to harrass them to death.


----------

