# Native fish tank (Ohio River/ Creek/ Wetland fish)



## demonsoni

SO I am interning this summer for the Ohio EPA Division of surface water. We basically go around and shock fish(electrofishing), sort them, weigh them, then release the live fish. Sometimes I keep some. So far I have 3 Warmouth, a Golden Shiner, a yellow Bullhead catfish, and an Orange spotted sunfish. I tried to keep some other fish unsuccessfully-- a flathead catfish which died, another orange spotted which a warmouth ate, a creek chub which a warmouth ate, 2 logperch darters and a greenside darter, which didnt make it to my tank. I am putting a 55 gallon in my basement on cinder blocks to put these fish plus more fish into. Just thought I would share my tank.  Oh and my boss is holding a couple stonecat madtom's for me.


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## chapman76

That doesn't sound very responsible honestly. A yellow bullhead is fish that gets 15" and is quite bulky. This fish needs a much larger tank than a 55g. They're also more active than you think.

I'm also leary about this working out long term also. The warmouth and sunfish will battle a lot as they get older.


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## demonsoni

Even in the river I have yet to see a bullhead over 8 inches. Plus it's not like I dont have more bigger tanks. I know how to deal with interspecific competition, so thanks for your concerns. I'm not the first person to take wild caught fish and put them in a tank.


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## Hoosier Tank

You might want to take a look at this thread I posted a while back. I too am still interested in a Native Species tank... FYI: check local DNR regs :wink:
*http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=145395*


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## demonsoni

cool i will post in it and give my two pennies.


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## LJ

Off topic, but that is a really sweet internship you have there. I would love to get a job with the EPA.


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## demonsoni

I feel really lucky to have it. Not many people spend the summer on creeks and rivers handling all the fish you could never catch on a rod and reel. Its really great catching every fish that is in the water. I have seen the best of the best in each stream i go to.


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## demonsoni

stand made, pics follow

















yellow bullhead








3 warmouth








orange spotted








golden shiner


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## tonyh67

Wow - our tax dollars at work! Shocking, sorting and weighing fish - not to mention siphoning off a few as "pets". Sorry if I fail to see the value in this. Is this an OH state agency or a Federal division of EPA?


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## jcushing

just out of curiosity, what do you do temp wise for these types of fish, since they certainly dont get 76-78 water temps year round. do you have to lower the temps diring the winter or just not use a heater at all?


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## demonsoni

tonyh67 said:


> Wow - our tax dollars at work! Shocking, sorting and weighing fish - not to mention siphoning off a few as "pets". Sorry if I fail to see the value in this. Is this an OH state agency or a Federal division of EPA?


The "Value" as you call it is to measure water quality by way of seeing what species of fish is using the habitat we sample. The data is used to construct an IBI an Index of Biotic Integrity, this with a QHEI a qualitative Habitat Evaluation are used to see if a stream or creek meets the criteria or attainment as they say. If it does not the epa can fine people or make them fix the problem. In Ohio our findings are held up in court as it is law. So unless you are in Ohio it is not your tax dollars. Ohio EPA is the leader among all states in this type of work and other states all over the country are copying or in the process of copying what we do. So the "value" is emense because here in Ohio we care about our streams and our environment and constantly strive to make it better.

jcushing im not using a heater because they are used to cooler temps anyway.


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## heylady

Well I don't see the problem with keeping native fish, I've kept fish I've caught too! Mostly bluegill and pumpkinseed for me....anyway, very cool job and good looking fish you have there too!!! :thumb:


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## demonsoni

Thanks for the compliment, but I think his problem is that I acquired the fish while getting paid by the state.


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## JWerner2

I just went to Beltzville lake PA yesterday. It was my daughters birthday and we wanted to go to a beach but hate the Jersey shore and didn't feel like driving to DE again so we went to the lakes beach instead. The water was sparkling clear and the beach area had tons of clams just a few inches under the sand.

I must have seen about 6-7 adult size Bull Heads come straight between my legs that all looked even bigger then the said 14"s. I assume they were coming in to eat the freshwater clams but trust me those things can get huge!! Just outside the rope they use to tie off the swimming area from the rest of the lake you could see even more. I don't think I saw a single one that liked less then a foot and if I did it was FAT! Just outside that rope were tons of busted in half clam shells I seen them sifting through.

IMO it sounds cool and all but I agree that it is 100% irresponsible and reckless. I would rather someone troll along the rivers with a net and release them afterwords as well as someone supervising so no one would make off with one of the fish they are trying to keep records on to begin with.



> at Ohio EPA
> 
> "MISSION"
> "To protect the environment and public health by ensuring compliance with environmental laws and demonstrating leadership in environmental stewardship."
> 
> "VISION"
> "The Ohio Environmental Protection Agency is a trusted leader and environmental steward using innovation, quality service and public involvement to ensure a safe and healthy environment for all Ohioans."


This is what I found on the Ohio EPA website.....http://www.epa.state.oh.us/pic/facts/pub.html

Now don't be offended but it sounds as if some fish obviously don't take the shocking well since you state you sort them, weigh them, then release the_* live fish *_ so it is hard for me to understand why this group is attempting to conserve anything.


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## JWerner2

demonsoni said:


> Thanks for the compliment, but I think his problem is that I acquired the fish while getting paid by the state.


That and the fact most of us need a license to fish but in order to shock fish all you need is a internship. :thumb:


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## demonsoni

yes some fish die. their back is snapped from the electric. The whole point of the sample is to get data. We check downstream of wastewater treatment plants big metal foundries, stuff like that. We are checking on the polluters to see how fish who live in the water are doing and what fish are there. If there is only the most toleant species there is a big problem and we can make people pay millions or fix the problem, up to them. As far as being able to shock fish most colleges and universities do it as well. State DNR's do it, and your own state may very well electrofish. It has a purpose and you guys are knocking it because you dont understand. And for you people preaching about fish getting big go preach to newbs that get 4 oscars and put them in a 29 *** kept fish for years I have more bigger tanks so stop it.


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## demonsoni

and trolling with a net will not get all the fish, it will not get in the riprap, the rootwads, and the woody debris, You would miss the darters, the sculpin etc. if you want misrepresentation of the fish community trolling with a net would be the way to go.


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## tonyh67

JWerner2 said:


> demonsoni said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the compliment, but I think his problem is that I acquired the fish while getting paid by the state.
> 
> 
> 
> That and the fact most of us need a license to fish but in order to shock fish all you need is a internship. :thumb:
Click to expand...

Well put... by both of you. I've done a little quick research on electrofishing since I made my original comment... and now... I feel pretty much the same as I did when I started.  At best, I'll admit that it can be a necessary evil in gathering information on fish populations. If you look at sites that USE this method (DNR sites, etc.), they say it's harmless, safe, valuable, etc. OF COURSE they say that - otherwise they'd be shooting themselves in the feet. When a govt agency tells me something is safe or good for me, that's when I question it - and I work for the govt. What I didn't see on any of these sites was mention of "employee free stunned aquarium fish" benefit programs.

That being said, I guess there are bigger problems in the world than this, so I'm not entirely sure why I felt the need to comment in the first place. I guess I tend to be a little quick on the submit button sometimes.

OK. I won't comment further on this thread... unless of course, someone says something really stupid.


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## JWerner2

Do you understand anything about native fish? Do you have a chiller/chillers?

That cat is going to be the one to suffer most I can see it already. Bare bottom tank, no shelter,...etc,...etc. Do you understand that those fish are carnivores and require some precise dietary needs that will help the fish produce lots of waste. That 55 is not enough for that catfish alone so how big of a tank do you really have to house all of them?

OK, so now back to the methods used. You say netting them wont catch all of them? Well OK so how about the ones that die from the shock? What good do they really prove? If my state does it I disagree with them as well.

I don't recall the Ohio EPA having a motto but I would imagine it would go a little like this " If the pollution don't kill 'em we will".

My biggest disagreement is someone allowing you to take them home. Now that is irresponsible when coming from something like a state EPA.

I would bet that the Cat does not last more then 2 months.

One other thing is the comment about 4 Oscars and a 29g. I am sure when the day comes we will give the person dumb enough to do that a lesson as well. But it is up to them just as it is up to you to take our advice :wink: .


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## Alleycat

WOW !!! You folks are sure in the bashing mood.... This guys learning from his job here in Ohio, and brings a few elctro-caught fish home and puts them into a 55g. Not a 10g, like most non-caring folks would, but a roomy enough tank for the few fish he's got. And, he sounds like he just might know a little about fishkeeping from his comments. Yep, you're right the cat will outgrow that tank by golly... but not overnight.

Cut him some slack, and bash the idjits that bring home the Oscars and house them in 29g's....for life.

Back into 1979 I too did an internship on the trent/severn water system in Peterborough Ontario. Things we learned about what effects the large companies were doing to the water table, far outweighed the odd Bass and Bluegill I took home to my 40g. No worries though, they ended up in an acre pond, and several reputable companies were fined and ordered to fix their problem.

demonsoni, enjoy your job, and help keep our water clean. :thumb:


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## JWerner2

No one is bashing anyone ( well maybe just the EPA ) we are just trying to talk some sense into someone.

I also feel that just saying it is irresponsible is very inconsiderate and feel that I should further explain why it is irresponsible.

You can use these outlandish aquarium sizes as examples but really no matter if it is a 10g or a 55 it is not a proper environment for the fish and if you feel the fact that they don't grow over night justifies this and does so alone then I really think you need to elaborate some more yourself. Its not doing me any harm at all so why am I so partial to this topic? Some one just needs further education with such a hobby thats all. I really cant see him enjoying it in the end. Well at least not this project that is :thumb: . I may learn from failure but a honest person must admit they don't enjoy it.

Ditch the Cat and keep about 2 of those fish in that 55 and try to find a DIY on a home made chiller. Also upgrade the filtration to a canister or something.

I'm not trying to be rude but just use some common sense to the subject.


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## tonyh67

Hmmm... I said I wasn't going to comment further on this thread, didn't I? OK. So I won't say what I was going to say, which is that I totally agree with JWerner on this. I won't say that. :wink:


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## Malawidolphin

I find this very interesting. In Canada we are only legally allowed to keep non-native species in captivity. If you are found to have native species in your tank or pond they will fine you and confiscate your equipment. I think they are worried that native fish are moved from lake to lake and it upsets the balance since each lake has different types of fish. We had a lake here in the mountains that someone released carp in and it took over the lake which use to be a great little rainbow trout lake. The depatment of fisheries did a complete kill on the lake (which unfortuanely means every living thing) and in two years are re-stocking it with it's original inhabitants. I've see perch introduced to a trout lake with devastating effects also.


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## JWerner2

If you are planning on keep some of those fish are you at least going to add some kind of substrate and some plants,rocks, and wood?

I am beginning to consider the fact that those fish may die from stress alone before water parameters go whack 'O considering the fact they are wild and have no where to take cover at all.


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## Darkside

JWerner2 said:


> No one is bashing anyone ( well maybe just the EPA ) we are just trying to talk some sense into someone.
> 
> I also feel that just saying it is irresponsible is very inconsiderate and feel that I should further explain why it is irresponsible.
> 
> You can use these outlandish aquarium sizes as examples but really no matter if it is a 10g or a 55 it is not a proper environment for the fish and if you feel the fact that they don't grow over night justifies this and does so alone then I really think you need to elaborate some more yourself. Its not doing me any harm at all so why am I so partial to this topic? Some one just needs further education with such a hobby thats all. I really cant see him enjoying it in the end. Well at least not this project that is :thumb: . I may learn from failure but a honest person must admit they don't enjoy it.
> 
> Ditch the Cat and keep about 2 of those fish in that 55 and try to find a DIY on a home made chiller. Also upgrade the filtration to a canister or something.
> 
> I'm not trying to be rude but just use some common sense to the subject.


Keep the catfish for now, you can always release it to where you got it from later. You won't need a chiller if its in the basement, these fish are used to a large range of temperatures. Also substrate isn't a necessity either, the fish will be fine. Have some fun with them because not many people here keep native fish. At one time our NA fish were wildly popular in Europe, actually, some of them still are. :thumb:


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## freirefishing

cool job by the way,im way jelous.

also i dont think what your doing is bad,your doing research and keeping some fish. to me poaching,fishing with no licenses,keeping undersized fish,keeping more fish than allowed does wayyyyyyyyyyy more damage than what were even talking about with your fish tank.

you think teachers and police are understaffed? the DEP is way understaffed,some of you have no clue on what happens out in the wild.

been fishing and hunting over 20 years,im a law abiding citizen with ethics and morals....but people you really have no idea on how bad it really is with laws being broken 12 months out of the year in regards of keeping animals and fish

i can see your point when it comes down to taking that cat and placing it in a fish tank. yeah not good idea in the long run for the cat. but im sure you'll resolve it somehow.

and just to give you an idea of something thats damaging and illegal....do you know how many people would use that warmouth as live bait for bass and catfish? do you know how many people in an asian community would fry those little warmouth's and eat'm? NOT being steretypical at all, i have about 20 cambodian friends that eat little bluegill's and little fish like that warmouth....all illegal......i can type for about another hour or so, on what *** seen and know what types of illegal things people are capable of in regards to mother earths species.

in the end when you really think about it, his catfish thats alive,being fed and confined to a rediculously small 55 gallon tank (being facetious)........at least to me,isnt worth mentioning to our epa worker


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## Hoosier Tank

Darkside said:


> Keep the catfish for now, you can always release it to where you got it from later.


Need to check you local laws. It was posted in my previously attached thread that releasing captive fish is illegal more fequently than it is catching them for wet-pets in the first place.
Not bashing you, just a FYI so to speak.


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## Darkside

Hoosier Tank said:


> Darkside said:
> 
> 
> 
> Keep the catfish for now, you can always release it to where you got it from later.
> 
> 
> 
> Need to check you local laws. It was posted in my previously attached thread that releasing captive fish is illegal more fequently than it is catching them for wet-pets in the first place.
> Not bashing you, just a FYI so to speak.
Click to expand...

I'm aware of the laws, but an isolated incident like this shouldn't be a big deal. I doubt very much that the MNR is going to raid my house and fine me for keeping some mud minnows I've fished out of a local pond. Our local laws stipulate that we shouldn't be keeping native fish in our aquariums at all, but I'm sure there are tons of kids in Ontario both at home and in cottage country who keep and release native fish on a regular basis. If you behave responsibly then it should be nothing to worry about, I was suggesting that we temper our wariness of the law with common sense.


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## demonsoni

Well then I've been away at work. Yes I've given them a rocky substrate bottom, the water is very cold in my basement, and I dont plan on releasing any to the wild. People are very divided on this so I think its better to end this topic. Everyone gets defensive slash offensive including me, I dont want that.


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## TheFishGuy

I have to say I'm with Alleycat...

#1. Some of you are getting a little rediculous.

#2. The program demonsoni is involved in is a great program, it's great for the environment and great for Ohio. Spouting off about things and not knowing _all_ of the details is immature and irresponsible.

Ignorance and arogance go hand in hand.

#3. I'm surprized demonsoni has stayed as calm as he has with some of things you people are saying about him, his fish keeping and his opportunity to be able to bring his work home and study it first hand. He's said it stays cold in the basement, he's said he's got bigger tanks, he's said he's got the expereince needed. End of story.

#4. Lighten up.

Personally I have kept many natives with much success for many years and have a few friends that do the same. Good luck with the fish, they're in a great home :thumb:


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