# Very odd and very sudden mass die-off ??



## pmkls1 (May 21, 2006)

Ok, first let me start by saying this will be a long post, but I am going to try to be as thorough as possible to help identify the root cause of my problem. I have been keeping african cichlids for around 3 years or so now and I don't necessarily consider myself a pro, but I feel I'm well experienced and knowledgeable. Anyhow, I'll get to the problem. I had about 10 adult blue peacocks (aulonocara hansbaenshi) (1 male and 9 females) that I raised from fry. I believe, but don't remember for sure, that they were all from the same 2 parents. Once they were old enough they began spawning, at which time I had 3 batches in succession that all were held until the mother spit them out. The first 2 batches were close enough together that I kept them all in the same 10g tank for a couple of months. The number was approximately 30 for the two. After about a couple of months I noticed a fry here and there popping up dead in the filter inlet in the morning. At first I assumed it was because they were getting a little crowded as they grew. About that time I decided that I was going to change back to mbuna because the female peacocks were too drab for my taste. So, I went ahead and got rid of the male and moved the fry to my main 55g tank. At that time I had a mother holding the 3rd batch so I moved her over to the 10g tank. Well, it wasnt long before I noticed the same problem in the 55g tank that fry would pop up dead here and there. I then assumed it was due to the stress of the adult females bullying them around.


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## pmkls1 (May 21, 2006)

I was already preparing an additional 55g tank that I had to move the fry over to grow out in so I went ahead and finished up setting it up. I did reseal the old tank because it had sprung a leak right before it took it down originally. I DID use aquarium safe silicone sealant. Anyhow, I set the tank up in my basement after posting here asking about any precautions other than beefing up the heating system. After about 1 week I got some quikrete all purpose sand and added to the tank that I also posted here about and other people on this forum use. I was running 2 200 watt heaters, a whisper 60 air pump with 2 6" airstones, and a whisper 60 and emperor 400 power filters. The temp of the water stayed around 76-78 degrees and didn't vary much. I used a stick-on AND a floating thermometer and both readings were consistent. Anyhow, everything has been fine for over a month now and then very suddenly and unexpectedly tragedy struck.


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## pmkls1 (May 21, 2006)

Saturday as I was leaving to do some important errand running I noticed a couple dead fish as I turned on the tank lights. I was too much in a hurry to be able to do something so I left them to deal with after I got back. Once I arrived home several hours later I saw a horrifying sight. Nearly all of the fish in the tank were dead. There were about 10 fish left alive and most of them were behaving very strangely. I also haad 3 small mbuna around the same size in the tank 2 were yellow labs and 1 a kenyi. First I began to clear all of the dead fish out. Then I went ahead and began to perform a water change as I had already planned to do so. As I was emptying water into a bucket I grabbed a test strip and tested the water in the tank. The ph was around 8.2, the hardness was pretty much maxed out as normal (well water ) The nitrates and nitrites were high around 60ppm and 5ppm respectively, but the tank wasn't done cycling and I've seen levels higher and not had dead fish. Anyhow, as I was draining the water some of the remaining fish were going nuts and dropping dead right in front of me. I grabbed my net and started scooping up the remaining live fish and rushed them upstairs to the 10g tank where the third batch of around 20 still remained. The way the dying fish were behaving was unusual and not how a typically stressed fish behaves. Instead of being lethargic they would just go nuts and dart all over the place and then stop and start turning belly up. Meanwhile, their gills would continue working and they would eventually fade out so to speak.


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## pmkls1 (May 21, 2006)

The 3 mbuna appeared to be behaving normal and after all was said and done the 3 mbuna and just 2 peacocks were alive. I finished a very thorough water change and also changed all of the filters and left the last 2 peacocks in the tank to see if they would survive as I still didn't have an explanation for the deaths. After a few hours, the last 2 peacocks appeared completely normal and were swimming around like normal. Meanwhile, I had 3 1"+ mbuna in a 10g tank with 20 3/8" peacocks so I needed to figure out a plan fast. My main 55g was out of the question for any of them as it is filled with 6 yellow labs and 3 kenyi all over 2.5". I went back to the basement and still the 2 remaining peacocks were just fine. So, I made a tough decision and moved all of the peacocks and the 2 labs down to the basement leaving the kenyi upstairs alone. I checked all night until I went to bed and all seemed well, so I figured the problem was just the high nitrites and nitrates in the tank. This morning as I left for work I checked again and all was well so I figured the experience was behind me. But, when I came home about 12 of the 20 peacocks were already dead. About 8 were still alive, but again they were behaving oddly. One of them was swimming in circles so fast it litterally looked impossible. Then shortly after it stopped swimming in circles it went belly up still breathing and eventually just died. I grabbed the remaining few and as I did 2 more were just swimming normal and just went belly up. Again, all this time the 2 labs were completely normal. I recovered 5 peacocks, 1 of which was from the first batch still.


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## pmkls1 (May 21, 2006)

Anyhow, I am left lacking an explanation for this occurence. The nitrate and nitrite levels are nill currently and the ph and hardness the same as always. All 3 of my tanks are filled from my well water which is chemically perfect for malawi cichlids. The fry in the 10 and 55 were fed from the same bag of hikari cichlid-gold as were the 3 mbuna. Honestly, I felt that it had to be some sort of toxin in the water because of the way the dying fish were behaving, but I can't explain why the mbuna seem unaffected. Could it be that mbuna are simply hardier than peacocks and therefore can stand higher levels of toxicity ? The food shows to be good until 2011 and the fry in the 10g tank lived on it just fine so that sort of kills that theory. The only other explanation I have is possibly it is some sort of genetic defect from them possibly being inbred. For now the tank sits empty and will remain that way until I can unravel this mystery. Currently, the remaining 5 peacocks appear to be ok. I cannot figure out how the fish in the tank remained in the same state of health for around 5 weeks and then very suddenly began to die. I could see a build up of toxins from waste doing this, but the tank was nearly cycled and this would have occurred sooner. One other oddity I can remember is that I had to euthanize one of the adult females right as they matured because she would not stop injuring herself. I had put up a post on here about her having a large red bump on her head and assumed she got it from being harrassed by the male. After separating her and medicating her the wound began to heal. Then, just as the wound was almost healed a huge chunk went missing from her head. After doing some close observation I found that she was inflicting her own wounds by hitting her head on things. This went on for weeks and after spending loads of money on antibiotics and other medicines the wound would not heal because she would continue to gouge her own head on things in the tank. I am very disturbed and confused by this event and need to find a logical answer because I will be needing this tank as my mbuna mature and begin to spawn. Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Phil


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Hi Phil,

sorry for the loss of your fish.

I appreciate your detailed post but I won't have time to give it a truly detailed read until I get home from work late tonight so if I've missed something--I apologize.

Did you get an ammonia reading? When fish are suffering from ammonia poisoning they will 'go nuts' as you say. Darting and smashing into things--some will even try to jump OUT of the water. It can kill them fast. 
Generally speaking when you have a large sudden die-off as you describe its a toxin in the water. Ammonia is the number one suspect here but you should also look into the possibility that some sort of cleaning agent, soap, perfume, gasoline residue, or other toxingot into the water.

If your filter suddenly became blocked this too would cause a die off.

I'll get back to this post later. And I'm sure someone else will step in with some thoughts.Again, I'm truly sorry for the loss of your fish.

Robin

I know it can be done, and people do do it, but cycling a tank WITH fish in it is NOT the best way to cycle a tank and if the ammonia and nitrite doesn't kill them the internal injuries they receive weakens them and puts them at higher risk for disease.


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## pmkls1 (May 21, 2006)

Thanks for the reply Robin. I believe the theory of a toxin in the water is probably the cause. I am certain that the problem is isolated to that tank because after the fish were removed they recovered and are fine now. What confuses me is why it took 5 weeks before any fish died and then it was very sudden. Also, I don't understand why the mbuna seemed unaffected. I do feel that whatever was killing them was recently introduced to the tank as like I said before the tank has been full for about 5 weeks with no deaths and the 3rd batch of fry I mentioned only lasted 1 night. I have a couple of ideas as to what the toxin may be. First, I live in east TN and we have an overpopulation of orange ladybugs that aren't indigenous to this area. They are a result of a UT experiment gone wrong. Anyhow, I know that certain insects can be poisonous to other animals and I have seen some of them in the tank. Second, last week I ran a kerosene heater in the basement a couple of days in order to help keep it somewhat warm because we had a cold spell. I did not test for ammonia as I don't have an ammonia test kit. I don't think ammonia was the cause though because after the fish began dying I did as near of a complete water change that could be done before I reintroduced any more fish. After I had drained the tank down to a certain level I began filling it from my faucet and continued to drain water as it simultaneously filled. I did that for quite some time so that I could remove as much of whatever toxins from the tank as possible. I also normally cycle a tank with bio-spira and a couple of fish at a time, but this time around I was unable to do any of that due to circumstances that I cannot divulge. Anyhow, I'm going to wait until this weekend and then take apart the filters and investigate for bugs, then I'm going to completely drain and thoroughly rinse the tank. Meanwhile, I am going to think of ideas to keep any foreign materials from entering the tank just in case it was a bug or something like that. Thanks,
Phil


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

> What confuses me is why it took 5 weeks before any fish died and then it was very sudden


 That's the nature of an ammonia spike or other toxin caused death--the suddeness.



> Also, I don't understand why the mbuna seemed unaffected.


Some fish are just going to be more/less sensitive.



> an overpopulation of orange ladybugs


 Seems unlikely unless the ladybugs tramped through some sort of toxin before falling in your tank. I use to feed ladybugs to some American Toads I was raising without problems



> Second, last week I ran a kerosene heater in the basement a couple of days in order to help keep it somewhat warm because we had a cold spell


Kerosene fumes? Not likely unless the tank was right next to the heater. If you got any kerosene on your fingers tho and then put your hands in the tank or on the food you were feeding them---THAT would do it.



> I don't think ammonia was the cause though because after the fish began dying I did as near of a complete water change that could be done before I reintroduced any more fish. After I had drained the tank down to a certain level I began filling it from my faucet and continued to drain water as it simultaneously filled. I did that for quite some time so that I could remove as much of whatever toxins from the tank as possible.


If your tank was not cycled then draining the tank would have removed the ammonia in the water but wouldn't have stopped the production of ammonia or done anything to enable your uncycled filter to process it. I don't know how many fish you have/had  in this tank total but the more fish you have the more intense the ammonia spike is going to be.

I don't blame you for being frustrated over not knowing the exact cause of the sudden die off. Unfortunately it's often hard to know for sure. My guess is that it was an ammonia spike, but without testing that's only a guess. 
Fill up the tank again and this time use some establlished filter media from one of your other tanks to seed the filter. This will get the cycle going and depending on hom much established media you use it may even completely cycle the tank. Then add a couple of fish and let the tank run for a few weeks. Test, test, test the water--ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. 
When you're certain the tank has/is cycled start adding a couple of fish every 2-3 days. You don't want to add a bunch at once because this can cause a mini cycle for the filter.

Let us know how it goes, and again, sorry for the loss of so many fish.

Robin


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## pmkls1 (May 21, 2006)

> If your tank was not cycled then draining the tank would have removed the ammonia in the water but wouldn't have stopped the production of ammonia or done anything to enable your uncycled filter to process it. I don't know how many fish you have/had in this tank total but the more fish you have the more intense the ammonia spike is going to be.


The only thing that made me think that it wasn't an ammonia spike was because after I had thoroughly changed the water I added about 20 fry that were no more than approximately 3/8" in size and they lasted less than 24 hours before they began to die. I know 20 seems like a lot, but we're talking about a 55g tank here and I just don't see them being able to produce that amount of ammonia in that amount of time. I completely respect your opinion, but the only reason that I doubt the ammonia theory is that even though I've only been in the hobby for about 3 years is I've moved my 2 55g tanks and the 10g tanks numerous times and have had to re-cycle them each time. The second 55g tank has always been used as a grow-out tank and the 10g was always used for holding mothers and I would sometimes take it down if I didn't have any mothers. I have had plenty of deaths over that amount of time, but never anything like this. I actually haven't had any deaths at all in the past year. Anyhow, I am in complete agreement that it is a toxin and, yes the kerosene heater was pretty close to the tank, within a couple of feet. I can't use media from another filter because I don't have a similar filter in my other tanks. I use an xp3 im my other 55g. I will use some bio-spira the next time I attempt to use this tank though. I've used it with good results before. This weekend I'll get some ammonia test strips and I'll do dome investigating on the tank as well. Thanks for the help,

Phil


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

You're welcome, Phil.

Could very well have been the kerosene as you say. Unfortunately we'll never know for sure. One thing I can say in dealing with numerous members who've experienced sudden multiple fish deaths is that it happens to people who have many years of experience and beginners alike. When you think of all the substances that we routinely use around the house that are toxic to fish it's a wonder it doesn't happen more often.

The test-_tube_ type of test kit is usually more reliable the test _strip_ kind. 
If you take some of the gravel from one of your established tanks and either put it in the filter--_somehow_, or hang it in a mesh bag near the filter intake--it will help jump start the tank.

Good luck getting it up and running again. 

Robin


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## pmkls1 (May 21, 2006)

Thanks for the help again Robin. I believe the LFS has the ammonia test kits in the tube type as well so I'll get one of those. After some thought on the kerosene heater, I do remember that the very last time it was used it began to smoke a little excessively and a relative turned it off ( probably about 3-4 days before I began to have problems). I hadn't remembered that because I wasn't home when that happened. I used to have some ammonia test strips, but I have had such little problems with illness in such a long time that I rarely even test the water for anything. I only test occasionally because of the fact that my well water is already ideal for africans and I do routine water changes weekly as well as filter maintenance. Any time that I do test in my main tank it is nearly identical as the last reading. Like you said, problems like this can happen to amateurs and experienced people alike. The main thing that had me disturbed was that I could not seem to find an explanation. The fry I was just growing out to give to the LFS so I can deal with the loss. But, I need to resolve the problem before I need the tank again and without an explanation that is difficult to do. Just as you also said, though, the cause may never be known for sure so I'll just have to take precautions to prevent a repeat as best as possible. Anyhow, I don't need this tank now that just about all of the fry are gone so hopefully I can get everything straightened out by the time I do need it again, which will be a while. I really do appreciate the advice,

Phil


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