# Water change MANIA!



## tonyh67

I've seen a lot of posts in these forums where people seem to be so proud of their massive water changes... posts like, "I change 100% of my water every ten minutes in my 300 gallon tank with one guppy and it's still not nearly enough!" Ok, that's an exaggeration, but it wouldn't surprise me to see that post.

What's with all the water change one-upmanship? It makes sense to me to choose a good nitrate target for your fish (research to find this number) - and change the amount weekly to stay under that target. Fish (some more than others) don't like extremely high nitrates, but what they really don't like is sudden change. For that reason, I think it can be risky to change more than 1/3 in one day except in extreme circumstances. If need to change 75% of my water - based on water testing - I do it over 3 or 4 days, but never all at once - unless something REALLY BAD happened to the water.

I realize that some fish, discuss for example, are very sensitive to water quality. But even with discuss I'd rather change 20% daily than most of it all at once.

Call me crazy, but unless you know the exact make-up of your tapwater (which can change without notice) and it matches your aquarium water, or you "alter" it to match your aquarium water (minus the nitrates and other bad stuff), I think it's risky to change too much at once. Even if you're purifying your water or buying purified water, then adding "stuff" to harden, soften, raise ph, lower ph, raise calcium, whatever, it's hard to be sure that some water parameter isn't wildly different than what's in your tank.

So I'm not gonna brag about my huge water changes... instead, I'll "brag" by saying that I change as little as possible to minimize risk and as much as is needed to keep water quality in check. Am I the only one?


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## riffraffxl

tonyh67 said:


> So I'm not gonna brag about my huge water changes... instead, I'll "brag" by saying that I change as little as possible to minimize risk and as much as is needed to keep water quality in check. Am I the only one?


I can understand your view, but do you have any evidence, other than common sense, that these big changes are bad? I don't mean that in a condescending way; here's why I say it.

My tank has had 50% changes for two years and 50%+ changes for 1 year, all weekly. I know a discus breeder that does 90%+ changes daily. I share similar concerns with you(otherwise I would do 90% changes too!). In fact I do agree with you in principle. My real world experience, however, has never shown large water changes to be a bad practice, whatever the theoretical objections may be.

As for bragging...well, I don't know if you're directing this at me, but among the small group of cichlid keepers I know personally, I'm considered "normal" when it comes to water changes  Certainly my nitrate level is nothing to brag about. There are people here saying they have close to zero at all times. There are also posters who I'm sure would say I'm overstocked (the venerable prov356 comes to mind).

Edit: And yes I do agree there can be a sense of one-upsmanship and elitism in some of the water change threads. That was never my intent in my posts; I think some people are just proud of their setups and that may come through in different ways.


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## under_control

My fry tanks get 50% changes daily. My growth rates have tripled since doing weekly 50% changes. The water change frequency is the ONLY factor that changed during this time so it almost has to be at fault--though my breedin program has gotten much better.

I Monitor PH and GH/KH of tap water prior to changes. I have a spreadsheet with the data for every water change for the last 4 years. PH has only changed by .3 total over the last year, and the biggest change at once was .2 GH/KH are almost always constant except after LARGE rainfalls and then I am able to adjust this, though often do nothing about it as I keep soft water fish in hard water.

Frequently measuring the TAP PH will usually predict changes in the other paramaters. I also SMELL my tap water before adding it--as you can smell chlorine when they have added extra here after flooding and the like.


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## Mr_Yellow_Shoes

under_control said:


> My fry tanks get 50% changes daily. My growth rates have tripled since doing weekly 50% changes. The water change frequency is the ONLY factor that changed during this time so it almost has to be at fault--though my breedin program has gotten much better.
> 
> I Monitor PH and GH/KH of tap water prior to changes. I have a spreadsheet with the data for every water change for the last 4 years. PH has only changed by .3 total over the last year, and the biggest change at once was .2 GH/KH are almost always constant except after LARGE rainfalls and then I am able to adjust this, though often do nothing about it as I keep soft water fish in hard water.
> 
> Frequently measuring the TAP PH will usually predict changes in the other paramaters. I also SMELL my tap water before adding it--as you can smell chlorine when they have added extra here after flooding and the like.


Tripled!!! Wow, I should do that from now on lol


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## Mr_Yellow_Shoes

under_control said:


> My fry tanks get 50% changes daily. My growth rates have tripled since doing weekly 50% changes. The water change frequency is the ONLY factor that changed during this time so it almost has to be at fault--though my breedin program has gotten much better.
> 
> I Monitor PH and GH/KH of tap water prior to changes. I have a spreadsheet with the data for every water change for the last 4 years. PH has only changed by .3 total over the last year, and the biggest change at once was .2 GH/KH are almost always constant except after LARGE rainfalls and then I am able to adjust this, though often do nothing about it as I keep soft water fish in hard water.
> 
> Frequently measuring the TAP PH will usually predict changes in the other paramaters. I also SMELL my tap water before adding it--as you can smell chlorine when they have added extra here after flooding and the like.


Tripled!!! Wow, I should do that from now on lol


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## tonyh67

riffraffxl - my post wasn't aimed at anyone in particular.

I can't say that I have evidence that small, frequent changes are better than less frequent large changes. But I can say that it's well documented that SUDDEN changes to certain water parameters (ph and others) can be deadly to fish. I understand that many people perform large scale water changes and have done it that way successfully for years. Maybe they've been successful with this approach because their source water closely matches their aquarium water. But one day your water provider (assuming you use tap water) may do something out of the ordinary to alter water chemistry which could make a large change harmful or deadly. Obviously, testing source water before each change minimizes that risk, but only to a point. We only test a handful of parameters... what if something gets in the source water that we're not testing for? This happens all the time. Most of us have experienced "boil water" advisories at one time or another.

Here's the closest I can come to evidence: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/water.htm. It's not evidence - it's an opinion, but it's the opinion of a man that knows 1000x more about fish (freshwater and saltwater), reefs, water chemistry, etc. etc. than I will ever know.


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## under_control

Link no good... Can you try again?

I think we should point out that now you ref small, frequent water changes, and before you said that you do weekly small changes, which i do not equate to frequent small changes. Maybe this is a difference of opinion, but I will say that in my experience over the years tanks that have had small weekly changes as opposed to larger weekly changes have done worse than the larger changes. But I am very cautious as I stated in my post.


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## riffraffxl

tonyh67 said:


> Most of us have experienced "boil water" advisories at one time or another.


This is true; we had one here a few months ago. Also, levels of chlorine and dissolved solids can vary over time, etc.

I should add that I do large weekly changes out of convenience. Small changes throughout the week could indeed be better.


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## remarkosmoc

I agree that some folks are a little too into water changes. I love having a lot of tanks and if I had to do water changes constantly I would probably drop the hobby or at least have a huge downscale.

I monitor nitrates and keep them below fourty and phosphates below 5.0. I keep the tanks that I can planted to help reduce the need for changes. I also watch the behavior and color of the inhabitants.

For those who do lots of water changes I would assume that the parameters stay pretty constant, which is good, and that they dechlorinate the water first as well. As long as those are true I think it works fine even if it may be overkill. The only danger I see is doing infrequent large water changes since that is more likely to change the parameters quickly. The slower you make any change the better.


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## dwarfpike

I think it also depends on the fish. Fish from large lake enviorments have very stable waters and thus smaller changes in hardness/pH can affect them much more than most river fish. I have often read that Lake Tangs don't like large scale water changes, thus it is better to do 10% more frequently than 75% less often (can't say for sure, out water is not rift lake friendly).

Fish from rivers are used to more sudden changes, every time there is a storm the temp, hardness, and pH usually lowers significantly. And in the tropics, there are lots of storms.

The stability issue can be seen in marine tanks as well, after all the ocean tends to be very stable in terms of pH, salinity, temp, ect.


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## riffraffxl

dwarfpike said:


> Fish from rivers are used to more sudden changes, every time there is a storm the temp, hardness, and pH usually lowers significantly. And in the tropics, there are lots of storms.


Interesting...I wonder if Lake Malawi's water changes in any measurable way, say when there's a heavy rainstorm, for instance.

If I had a reef tank I imagine only a disaster would cause me to have a large water change.

*slight change in topic*

I wish I could do less water changes; something interesting I saw was a fresh water skimmer. Apparently there are some that are designed for fresh water but they are insanely expensive. This is my dream piece:

http://www.koicarp.net/filtration/prote ... ander.html

They're pretty expensive...but I'm so tempted to get one...


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## dwarfpike

I would imagine the lake is big enough it wouldn't really affect it, but I believe it is less gallonage than Lake Tang.

A protien skimmer will work in freshwater if the water is hard enough (Lake Tangs, central americans). I wouldn't pay more for a 'freshwater' one though, the normal ones will work if the hardness is right. Never works as well though as saltwater of course, but I have personally seen it work in a Lake Tang tank before (this was years ago - mid 90's or so).


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## quiksilver

After reading a lot of post on the topic I did a 50% water change. Results: Stressed fish and a small case of white spot. Smaller changes for me 25%>


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## JWerner2

I don't see what the big deal is honestly. You are supposed to use conditioners when replacing the water and if you don't test it before hand thats the big risk and not everyones tap is exactly like the aquarium water so you can only expect dealing with that before you add the water also..

I also don't know of any fish that would be sensitive to a decrease in bad water parameters .

I'm sure people have plenty of reasons. I do all my tanks in different ways. Some get a 50% weekly some get a 25% twice weekly, it really don't mater that much as long as you are aware of what is gong back in.

I'll give my Comps tank as a example. I do anywhere from 25%-30% 1 or 2 times a week. I use high power lights, I feed heavy since they are young, I don't have plants to eat Nitrates and other nutrients that algae feed off of so I do lots of water changes to help keep Nitrates as low as possible along with Phosphates.

The things like Nitrates, Nitrites, Ammonia, Phosphates,...etc,...etc are not the only reasons for water changes. So just because your test kit reads low or nothing at all for all just mentioned does not mean that you should do less changes.

I am not one to brag about doing water changes and I really don't see any excessive threads about it but some people that have big projects that are very successful are proud of the fact they can blame it all on hard work by maintaining a good routine. :thumb:

EDIT: Also for those that have large predatory fish that are messy eaters it is a necessity to do large water changes.

I did 50% weekly with my Jaguars and I never noticed any ill effects at all. As this routine became more common the fish looked better and better, even better than before hand. Those fish were huge, ate lots of food and made a big, big mess doing so.

My planted is another since again I use higher power lights and fertilize this tank. I try my best to keep the plants looking good but I also try my best to keep out unwanted algae growth that may cover them.


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## riffraffxl

quiksilver said:


> After reading a lot of post on the topic I did a 50% water change. Results: Stressed fish and a small case of white spot. Smaller changes for me 25%>


One thing I have noticed is if I don't overdose on Prime (i.e. a bit more than tank volume) and/or mix the dechlorinator with the tank water enough my fish will "twitch." I'm sure their gills are getting irritated by chlorine. When I first did it the smaller fish would even sometimes sit on the bottom with fins clamped. 

Anyway, just something I found interesting. I'm not trying to convert you to big changes or anything.


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## gordonrp

Most likely the people doing massive water changes have overstocked tanks....

I do 50% about every 9 days and the nitrates sit just below 30ppm. I'm working on an automated system which will allow me to easily change 60% of the water with preheated/conditioned/aged water with just a couple of valve turns... making it easier to change the water more often.


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## smellsfishy1

Small water changes are fine if you add buffers and salts and adjusters. However, this is a waste of money if you do them frequently and in large quantities.What people are forgetting is that if you do large water changes frequently the water in the tank should be close to identical as the new water and the fish are used to this coming in all the time. There is actually little or no time for the water in the tank to drop in quality or pH etc. This is why so many people have success with these large frequent water changes(including myself, i change 25-50% every other day). Not to mention, fish don't get sick as often if nitrates are low and water changes are large, frequent, and most importantly regular! Just remember the chlorine/chloramine eliminator.


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## fightingfish

riffraffxl said:


> quiksilver said:
> 
> 
> 
> After reading a lot of post on the topic I did a 50% water change. Results: Stressed fish and a small case of white spot. Smaller changes for me 25%>
> 
> 
> 
> One thing I have noticed is if I don't overdose on Prime (i.e. a bit more than tank volume) and/or mix the dechlorinator with the tank water enough my fish will "twitch." I'm sure their gills are getting irritated by chlorine. When I first did it the smaller fish would even sometimes sit on the bottom with fins clamped.
> 
> Anyway, just something I found interesting. I'm not trying to convert you to big changes or anything.
Click to expand...

i always add more declorinator then needed just to be sure!


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## narhay

I think this mentality of bigger water changes is better will change once water usage becomes more and more of an issue around us as it gets more scarce. I am more into lightly stocked aquariums with only my favourite fish and many plants. My 150 gallon has 20 mbuna, between juvenile and at most 5" adults. The plants soak up phosphates and nitrates and I change about 20% of the water every week or 2. I have some very herbivorous mbuna that like to eat plants, but I found the ones they don't eat and have kept them very happy and thriving. I have also had great success with low tech planted tanks (60G, 33G, 20G) with 10% water changes every 2 or 3 weeks over 5+ years.


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## tonyh67

Yesterday in my post on this thread, I referenced an article by Bob Fenner on water changes, but my link was bad - sorry. Wetwebmedia does some funny business with some of their URLs and I can't seem to link directly to that article. If you want to read the article, try this: go to http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebInde ... tindex.htm. Scroll to the next-to-last line under "Water Issues" and click the link called, "Water Changes" by Bob Fenner. After re-reading the article, I believe it's a little slanted toward saltwater tanks, but still, I think the general idea applies to sw and fw. A typical fw tank probably requires a bit more in the way of water changes (bigger and more frequent) than a typical sw tank.

My opening to this thread probably sounded a bit smug. I'm sure many of you are more experienced at this than I am. If you're changing 50% or more of your water at a time and it's working for you, far be it from me to suggest you're doing it wrong. Mostly I just wanted to see if some of you think, like I do, that large scale water changes present some risk. I see that some of you agree with me and some of you don't. At any rate, I think it's a very good conversation. Thanks for all the responses.

By the way, I think wetwebmedia.com is a great resource for both fw and sw systems. It contains a lot of very competent and technical discussion. I've learned as much about aquarium keeping there as anywhere.


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## JWerner2

Most articles I read explain 50% water changes 2,3,4 times a week when growing out fry or breeding fish and some explain it should be done daily. I have gotten that info both here on the net and in TFH or other books/magazines.

I agree if what one has been doing has been working then why change :thumb: ? I find that when a good routine has a dramatic change is when my problems have occured be it large water changes or small ones.

One thing I must question. Are you saying that SW takes less water changes and care then FW?

If so I have never heard of that before. I can go way longer if I felt like it with my FW then I could have with my SW. Frequent SW water changes are a definite necessity especially in Reef tanks.


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## quiksilver

JWerner2 said:


> Frequent SW water changes are a definite necessity especially in Reef tanks.


The person i know with a reef tank does a water change once a month if he feels he needs to and still doesnt like doing it because he thinks it affects the fish. The only thing stopping me from switching from FW to SW is price of SW equipment chillers ect.


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## fightingfish

dont mean to offend anyone but i think most people who do water changes two or three times a week are Fanatical if most people had to do that people would not be in the hobby it would just get Annoying but thats my opionion you guys can do what you think is best. :roll:


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## fightingfish

JWerner2 said:


> Most articles I read explain 50% water changes 2,3,4 times a week when growing out fry or breeding fish and some explain it should be done daily. I have gotten that info both here on the net and in TFH or other books/magazines.
> 
> I agree if what one has been doing has been working then why change :thumb: ? I find that when a good routine has a dramatic change is when my problems have occured be it large water changes or small ones.
> 
> One thing I must question. Are you saying that SW takes less water changes and care then FW?
> 
> If so I have never heard of that before. I can go way longer if I felt like it with my FW then I could have with my SW. Frequent SW water changes are a definite necessity especially in Reef tanks.


can you give me links to these articals? i think 50% water changes daily is to much how come most fish survive with one water change every week why do people have to do like 50% daily?


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## JWerner2

fightingfish said:


> JWerner2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most articles I read explain 50% water changes 2,3,4 times a week when growing out fry or breeding fish and some explain it should be done daily. I have gotten that info both here on the net and in TFH or other books/magazines.
> 
> I agree if what one has been doing has been working then why change :thumb: ? I find that when a good routine has a dramatic change is when my problems have occured be it large water changes or small ones.
> 
> One thing I must question. Are you saying that SW takes less water changes and care then FW?
> 
> If so I have never heard of that before. I can go way longer if I felt like it with my FW then I could have with my SW. Frequent SW water changes are a definite necessity especially in Reef tanks.
> 
> 
> 
> can you give me links to these articals? i think 50% water changes daily is to much how come most fish survive with one water change every week why do people have to do like 50% daily?
Click to expand...

Ill try do dig up some links and some back issues of TFH as well I dont know why they do it but its done. I would imagine if they are sucessful breeders they have reasons.

Do a google on raising fry and breeding. A whole ton of people feel that it is needed to keep the females in perfect shape as well as the fry. Thinking about it, it may be that they are feeding heavy ad like I keep saying if it works why change. I also said that I a positive some people have reasons.



> The person i know with a reef tank does a water change once a month if he feels he needs to and still doesnt like doing it because he thinks it affects the fish.


Reef tanks need more changes then that. I did my Nano 20 long at once a week with only 25% but they need more then once a month. my big 46g bow mini reef was every 2 weeks at 35%.Corals are sensitive and again it is up to you to make sure the water going back in is as identic as possible or you are the only one to blame. My fish only got one 35% every two weeks but corals need more attention then that.


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## tonyh67

JWerner2 said:


> ... One thing I must question. Are you saying that SW takes less water changes and care then FW?
> 
> If so I have never heard of that before. I can go way longer if I felt like it with my FW then I could have with my SW. Frequent SW water changes are a definite necessity especially in Reef tanks.


I am definitely NOT saying that sw tanks require less CARE (and time) than fw. But I do believe that on average sw keepers change lower volumes of water than say African or South American cichlid keepers. There are several reasons for this, such as:
- Marine salt gets expensive when constantly mixing up large amounts of replacement water.
- Marine keepers have more Nitrate control methods available to them (protein skimming, refugiums, sumps with deep sand beds, mangrove, live rock, etc, etc
- Many if not most marine keepers (except maybe sw fish-only systems) don't use mechanical (sponge, floss, etc) filtration because these can actually INCREASE nitrates by holding detrus in the water system. 
- Marine keepers generally go with a lower bioload than cichlid keepers (you would never see a recommendation for 30 fish in a 75 gal sw tank, but we do that routinely in fw mbuna tanks).
- Most marine fish are more sensitive to changes in water parameters than fw fish, so a very large water change in a sw tank is very risky. However, many sw fish are also known to be intolerant of high (or even moderate) nitrate levels, so sw keepers must change small amounts frequently and/or employ other nitrate control methods.


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## JWerner2

All of those reasons are why reefkeepers are respected and uderstand why it is so costly to maintain!!!!

And you said yourself he does one a month and used that6 as a example where I say it is better to do less water more offten!!
Me..


> I did my Nano 20 long at once a week with only 25% but they need more then once a month. my big 46g bow mini reef was every 2 weeks at 35%.


You...


> so sw keepers must change small amounts frequently and/or employ other nitrate control methods.





> Most marine fish are more sensitive to changes in water parameters than fw fish, so a very large water change in a sw tank is very risky.


Again as I said but it obviously gets over looked, this is why it is up to you to make sure the water is as close to identic as you can get.



> Marine keepers generally go with a lower bioload than cichlid keepers (you would never see a recommendation for 30 fish in a 75 gal sw tank, but we do that routinely in fw mbuna tanks).


This answers why some people feel they should do more water changes.

Now if what you do is successful that is great but lots of us are just as successful at what we feel we need to do as well  .


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## under_control

fightingfish said:


> dont mean to offend anyone but i think most people who do water changes two or three times a week are Fanatical if most people had to do that people would not be in the hobby it would just get Annoying but thats my opionion you guys can do what you think is best. :roll:


I think once you get further along in this hobby you will want more than just "keeping fish". You will begin breeding. Then after you've begun breeding, you will want to improve breeding, so you will divide tanks out to species only, then pairs or trios, and selectively choose breeders, not just any male/female. Then, you will want to produce the best stock possible and provide the best conditions possible for breeding, and this frequently involves lots of water changes--especially in FRY tanks. 


fightingfish said:


> can you give me links to these articals? i think 50% water changes daily is to much how come most fish survive with one water change every week why do people have to do like 50% daily?


Fish surving and fish thriving are completely different things. A betta will survive in about 2 cups of water. However, a betta will thrive in a filtered tank of over 1 gallon.

Further, my fry survived with weekly water changes, but considering their growth rates nearly trippled after starting daily water changes, I'd say they were not THRIVING prior to this.

There is a difference between keeping fish in the minimum conditions and keeping fish in the best conditions possible. I assure you that no where in Lake Malawi has 30-40 ppm of nitrate--do you think that this does not contribute to the health of our fish?


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## JWerner2

Thank you!

Another thing to consider is that one would be nuts to use nature as a example where we only keep contained systems ( contained by us ) not natural ones.


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## tonyh67

Currently I change water once a week, so I guess I'm not "fanatical" in that respect... but if you call me fanatical, I'll take it as a complement. 

By the way, I'm writing an app (spreadsheet with code) to show how water changes affect NO3 values. You plug in your water change frequency and amount (and a few other items) and it shows where your NO3 will level off, and how long it will take to level off, based on your starting NO3 value. I'll make it available here after I test it a little more. Can I make a file (spreadsheet) available here?


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## fightingfish

tonyh67 said:


> Currently I change water once a week, so I guess I'm not "fanatical" in that respect... but if you call me fanatical, I'll take it as a complement.
> 
> By the way, I'm writing an app (spreadsheet with code) to show how water changes affect NO3 values. You plug in your water change frequency and amount (and a few other items) and it shows where your NO3 will level off, and how long it will take to level off, based on your starting NO3 value. I'll make it available here after I test it a little more. Can I make a file (spreadsheet) available here?


i change water once a week as well. what im trying to say if you are not breeding and there is no need to do a water change why do people do i so offten? i want the best enviroment for my fish possible but i dont want to do a water change every 2 or 3 days.


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## Vladimich

I do a 20% every month or so.


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## Britnick

Large water changes are great if you have the facilities to do so, but for those of us who donâ€™t have the capability of holding preheated and pretreated water then we have to go with small, regular water changes. But it is worth asking the question â€œwhat are you trying to achieve with larger water changes?â€


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## marge618

gordonrp said:


> Most likely the people doing massive water changes have overstocked tanks....
> 
> I do 50% about every 9 days and the nitrates sit just below 30ppm. I'm working on an automated system which will allow me to easily change 60% of the water with preheated/conditioned/aged water with just a couple of valve turns... making it easier to change the water more often.


I am relatively new to cichlid keeping. I don't change the water as often or as much as most of you. My fish live a long time. However, I really don't know how to measure how good my juvinile grow-out rate is. Also, not a cichlid breeder (yet).

I would like to hear more abour gordonrp's plan for automated water changes when it's up and working.
Later,
Marge


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## marge618

fightingfish said:


> tonyh67 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Currently I change water once a week, so I guess I'm not "fanatical" in that respect... but if you call me fanatical, I'll take it as a complement.
> 
> By the way, I'm writing an app (spreadsheet with code) to show how water changes affect NO3 values. You plug in your water change frequency and amount (and a few other items) and it shows where your NO3 will level off, and how long it will take to level off, based on your starting NO3 value. I'll make it available here after I test it a little more. Can I make a file (spreadsheet) available here?
> 
> 
> 
> i change water once a week as well. what im trying to say if you are not breeding and there is no need to do a water change why do people do i so offten? i want the best enviroment for my fish possible but i dont want to do a water change every 2 or 3 days.
Click to expand...

Thanks for saying this so clearly. Exactly my thoughts. 
I would also like to hear more about tonyh67 spreadsheet on water changes and NO3.
Later,
Marge


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## smellsfishy1

The people that don't do large water changes most likely don't overstock or need to worry about high nitrates. For others, having many fish or large fish is enjoyable so we are responding to the accelerated nitrates produced by these conditions. If I could keep my nitrates under 40ppm I wouldn't change my water 50% 2x/week. As my fish have grown so have the water changes. It's that simple!


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## narhay

I have cleaned more than a few non-planted aquariums (not mine!) whose water hadn't been changed in years. In quite a few of those cases, the nitrates were roughly 10, sometimes 5. With this in mind, I don't use nitrates as an indicator for water changes anymore.


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## Guest

My bigger beef is people who are so proud of over-filtering their tanks and wasting money on un-needed filters and continue to advise others to do the same.


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## narhay

Or the ones with 200+ watts of light to illuminate their sand and rocks...


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## JWerner2

.....or those that complain about others routine even though it is totally immaterial to ones own.


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## under_control

JWerner2 said:


> .....or those that complain about others routine even though it is totally immaterial to ones own.


 opcorn:


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## narhay

JWerner2 said:


> .....or those that complain about others routine even though it is totally immaterial to ones own.


Not really immaterial. When someone uses 400 watts of lighting when they could be using 40 for the same purpose, it forces a coal plant to fire up 360 extra watts and I breathe in extra mercury, carbon dioxide and SO2 because of it. Then consider the extra equipment and manufacturing costs/pollution/electricity/disposal associated with it, it really adds up.


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## remarkosmoc

I didn't get the memo that this is an environmental forum now. I would say that fish keeping as a hobby in general is nothing but a luxury and uses up a lot of energy purely for our entertainment, so is running a computer to be in this forum. The very small quantity of 400 watt light users are greatly overwhelmed by the multitudes who have 40W lights on their tanks. If you want to reduce the carbon footprint of aquarists, you'd be better to convince all of us here to quit. Shut down our tanks, shut down the site, and turn off our computers. I will, at least until tomorrow morning. :lol:


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## narhay

Right, that was off topic. No need to shut down tanks, just lobbying for some moderation in some choices. Sorry to the original poster.


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## JWerner2

:zz: Sounds more like something way off topic and thats about it.

Besides 65+65= 130 not 200+ and is by far from your last exageration of 400 :idea: .

On average they suggest 5-6 watts for a reef tank and 2-3 for a planted tank.

130 watts on a 75g tank is nothing my friend. Not even enough for a lower level planted tank of those dimensions!


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## narhay

:fish: :zz:


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## JWerner2

Does that mean that you are dreaming of fish?  :thumb:


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## BillD

Some interesting discussion here. The original post was correct in assuming that by testing, one can determine how much water needs to be changed at any given time. If we assume that using nitrate levels is sufficient to make the water change decision, and we set the target at 40ppm max, we can determine how mauch water needs to be changed as well as the frequency. The problem is that this is still a minimum amount. Lets say for the sake of argument that it is determined that a tank needs to get a 25% change once a week to maintain a nitrate level of less than 40ppm. lets say you miss a water change by a week, which can easily happen. We now have lost the balance maintained by the regular changes and remedial action would be required to get it back. If the minimum needed was 25%, and we changed 50%, and missed a week, no big deal.
As for water quality affecting growth rate, there is no question that it is at least as important as quality food (probably more so) for good growth rate. i discovered with my second angel spawn, that they neeeded daily water changes of 60% minimum. I missed 2 days and ruined the whole spawn of 300 fish, which ended up with short stubby fins.
back in may, I had 3 severum fry and 5 port fry in a 10 gal tank. They ranged in size from 3/8" to 3/4" for the ports and 3/8" to 5/8" for the sevs. In less than 3 weeks the largest of both were 2". The length was a little more than double but the increase in mass was probably 4 or 5 times. I kept daphnia in front of them 24/7 (more than they could eat) and changed 50% to 60% of the water daily. It was a necessity because of the large amount of food they were being fed. Obviously, prepared foods would not show the same growth rate because of the difficulty in regular feeding. 
So, personally, I wouldn't get my hose out for less than 50% water change, (not afraid to do 90%) and while I try to do it weekly, on most of the tanks, sometimes it goes beyond a week. I am not worried because 50% is more than the minimum required.


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## gordonrp

marge618 said:


> I would like to hear more abour gordonrp's plan for automated water changes when it's up and working.
> Later,
> Marge


I'll post pics when its done. Basically I live in a 4 level town house, garage and entrance on level 1, kitchen and yard and fishy area on level 0.

Moving my 6ft tank into the garage and having water plumbed to it to use as water storage/treatment. Water storage tank connects downstairs through the walls into new 9ft tank. 9ft tank to drain out into the yard.

Plumber coming in a couple of weeks.


----------



## tonyh67

marge618 said:


> fightingfish said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonyh67 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Currently I change water once a week, so I guess I'm not "fanatical" in that respect... but if you call me fanatical, I'll take it as a complement.
> 
> By the way, I'm writing an app (spreadsheet with code) to show how water changes affect NO3 values. You plug in your water change frequency and amount (and a few other items) and it shows where your NO3 will level off, and how long it will take to level off, based on your starting NO3 value. I'll make it available here after I test it a little more. Can I make a file (spreadsheet) available here?
> 
> 
> 
> i change water once a week as well. what im trying to say if you are not breeding and there is no need to do a water change why do people do i so offten? i want the best enviroment for my fish possible but i dont want to do a water change every 2 or 3 days.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for saying this so clearly. Exactly my thoughts.
> I would also like to hear more about tonyh67 spreadsheet on water changes and NO3.
> Later,
> Marge
Click to expand...

Marge - I spent a couple hours working on it today. I will definitely distribute it here when it's ready. The spreadsheet is pretty much complete but I decided it's a bad platform for distribution... so, I'm converting it to a JavaScript app. That way I can just stick it on a web server and post the URL - and hopefully people here will try it out and tell me about the bugs/problems they find  By the way, my other hobby is IT - actually it's my career.

Anybody know which forum I should post the URL to when it's ready?


----------



## tonyh67

marge618 said:


> fightingfish said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonyh67 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Currently I change water once a week, so I guess I'm not "fanatical" in that respect... but if you call me fanatical, I'll take it as a complement.
> 
> By the way, I'm writing an app (spreadsheet with code) to show how water changes affect NO3 values. You plug in your water change frequency and amount (and a few other items) and it shows where your NO3 will level off, and how long it will take to level off, based on your starting NO3 value. I'll make it available here after I test it a little more. Can I make a file (spreadsheet) available here?
> 
> 
> 
> i change water once a week as well. what im trying to say if you are not breeding and there is no need to do a water change why do people do i so offten? i want the best enviroment for my fish possible but i dont want to do a water change every 2 or 3 days.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for saying this so clearly. Exactly my thoughts.
> I would also like to hear more about tonyh67 spreadsheet on water changes and NO3.
> Later,
> Marge
Click to expand...

I just posted a topic about my "Nitrate/Water Change Calculator" in the Tank Setups forum. It evolved from a spreadsheet to a javascript app. You can find it at: http://www.fewpb.net/~ajhenderson/


----------



## under_control

Looks good so far, will go over it for a bit to see how it works.


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## cc_woman

opcorn: This has been really entertaining reading this. Not to offend anyone of course. I agree and disagree with all the answers to a certain extent. I don't think there is any wrong or right way to do water changes. It all depends on the fish you are keeping, how the tank is stocked, and how sensitive certain species are to bad water quality.

I have been changing 75% in my discus tank every single day, and they are doing well with them. I have a eheim 2250 canister and an AC 110 on the 90 gallon tank, stuffed full of bio media, so I don't think the large WC's will affect the bacteria to the point of being harmful to my fish. I change a couple others that are very well stocked 2x weekly of about 30%. All my fry and juvie tanks I do wc's every other day of 50%. And my planted tank I only do 1 weekly change of 15%. Plants absorb nitrates, CO2, and all that fun stuff, so I feel they don't need as many wc's as a tank without live plants. Most of my fish are africans like mbuna, and they do fine with my water changes. I never let my nitrates get too high, besides that, don't the beneficial bacteria live mainly in the filter media and substrate? So if that is the case, and one does not do a gravel vac every time, nor cleans their filters out with every change, would the nitrifying bacteria then still survive enough to not create spikes in parameters? I understand as well that tanks requiring special treatments for changing parameters, would be more of a pain in [email protected]$ to clean so often.

I think if you keep up on regular maintenance, and try not to sway more than a few days from that schedule, your fish will do fine with large or small changes. I have 13 tanks right now in total.....I am very dedicated in changing every single tank the amount of times I do. I am doing water changes almost every single night of the week, yet once you get the hang of it, it doesn't take me long on each tank. I personally think it depends on size, tankmates, filtration, etc to how often you should change your water. I would not expect someone who has a 50 gallon tank with 1 angel and 10 tetras to change their water every week. A situation like that, I would only do wc's every couple of weeks or so of 50%. In one of my 90 gallons, I used to have 1 angel, 1 gourami, and 1 common pleco. I changed the water once a month of about 30%. The fish did fine and were healthy. I think if you over feed your fish you will need to do more frequent changes as well.

Again, determining factors to how often one should do wc's are species of fish, size of tank, how the tank is stocked, how you feed your fish, age of fish etc. I don't think there is any right or wrong amount to change your water....It is up to the owner to decide how often and how much will be better for keeping their fish healthy, without over doing it of course. And I strongly believe in having lot's of extra filtration in the tank, it helps also with not having to do as many water changes as often. I find most of my fish breed after a wc, so obviously they are not hating having clean water.


----------



## Jdiscus

I do 50% every 3 days in my front and tropheus tanks. But I am on a well in limestone ccountry (extremely hard water with a ph of 8.6 that doesn't budge). I have 2 240 gallon vats that I use for prepping my water. Water variences are at most minimal!!! But I think that just like with filtration you can't "over do" water changes. Fish don't live in puddles in the wild, they have an unlimited supply of fresh water. As minimal as it may be, water parimeters change on fish in the wild, so minute changes in the water chemistry in the aquarium won't diversly affect the fish....SO LONG AS THE CHANGES ARE MINIMAL!!!! Just keep an eye on your water. Go to Wal-Mart and get a rubbermaid 33 gallon plastic trash can and prep your water before adding it...Fish keeping is easy as long as you don't make it difficult. :fish:


----------



## snakedoc

Hey everyone, I don't come in here very often. This is kind of a funny topic, interesting but not really what I expected. I have never really cared much about my water parameters, or water changes for that matter. I try to do as few as possible. Some of the other folks have posted similar comments I guess. To me the success of my tanks is measured by my ability to setup a tank and leave it, do as little as possible, and enjoy the growth and life of the fish.

My profile is quite bare at the moment, but about me, I have kept many tanks, freshwater mostly. I've been doing this for 15+ years and most of my knowledge comes from personal experience. Maybe I am out of whack here. I don't know if I would have time to enjoy my tanks if I had to check water parameters everyday though. Hopefully my fish are still alive when I get home and they haven't croaked, I haven't done a water change in 3 months.


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## lars0420

Um, ya...this thread is kinda weird to me. I have never, never checked levels in my tank. I set it up, let it cycle...for a few days, maybe 1 day...then I put fish in. I kick back watch the fish grow and enjoy the tank. I agree with snakedoc! Why check every day and be all anal about it...don't you just want to enjoy the fish? Also, I have all sorts of crazy combos that most people don't dream of. The mix of fish I have right now, people told me it couldn't be done. And, it's in a 29 gallon. I think I change the water every 7-8 months. I add it when it needs more and sometimes I scrub the tank down. That's it. The only time fish die in my tanks is when I put feeders in there and the Africans go crazy on their A!!!!!


----------



## Jago

lars0420 said:


> Um, ya...this thread is kinda weird to me. I have never, never checked levels in my tank. I set it up, let it cycle...for a few days, maybe 1 day...then I put fish in. I kick back watch the fish grow and enjoy the tank. I agree with snakedoc! Why check every day and be all anal about it...don't you just want to enjoy the fish? Also, I have all sorts of crazy combos that most people don't dream of. The mix of fish I have right now, people told me it couldn't be done. And, it's in a 29 gallon. I think I change the water every 7-8 months. I add it when it needs more and sometimes I scrub the tank down. That's it. The only time fish die in my tanks is when I put feeders in there and the Africans go crazy on their A!!!!!


We can take you and a bunch of your friends and stick them in a small enclosed space to eat, sleep, and expel waste. We'll do ya a favor and clean it once every 7-8 months. You'll most likely live.


----------



## Jago

Double post.

I've been have really long waits to get a post posted lately.


----------



## CICHLUDED

lars0420 said:


> The mix of fish I have right now, people told me it couldn't be done. And, it's in a 29 gallon. I think I change the water every 7-8 months.


Sounds like a real nice place to live.... :roll:


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## RyanR

I wish that many of the folks who advocate one approach or another would tell us what sorts of fish they have so we'd have a benchmark.

I'll chime in with my take:

We have Severums, blackbelt, and chocolatate cichilids... all pretty easy to keep happy... but I still do 50% weekly water changes on our two 75g tanks.

There are lots of chemicals that come directly and indirectly (via our fish) from fish foods, and "in the wild" (a dangerous comparison, I'm sure...) this stuff is diluted and recycled in a whole bunch of crazy ways. True that natural systems are kinda yucky (mostly sediment), but it's a complete system.

Our isolated systems lack a lot of the critters and processes that can recycle the stuff that comes out fish food (the input). While our fish are the centerpiece of our glass boxes, they're also part of the ecosystem that it contains. This is why you *have* to do water changes.

The change in water parameters before and after a water change is less drastic with frequent water changes because you go from "pretty clean" to "really clean".... instead of going from "friggin' gross" to "pretty clean". Plus, with more frequent changes, your fish get used to it and are consequently less stressed. Our fish don't mind the gravel vac whatsoever. I find that I almost have to vacuum around our larger severums. They just don't mind. When the new water comes in, they just swim under the hose and let it shower on them. That debunks the myth of fresh chlorinated water being stressful. I just dump the conditioner into the tank.

I get a LOT of gross out of the tank with weekly cleanings., and the tank is noticeably brighter and more cheery when I'm done.

Finally, I've found a system of hoses and a pump that makes water changes a breeze. Old water goes out the back door, and new water comes right from the kitchen sink, so there's zero pain for me to do 50% water changes vs. doing less. The 300 gallons of water that goes into our tanks monthly might add up to a few bucks a month. Hardly significant.

Our fish reward my efforts with vibrant colors... which to me says "happy fish". I also feel that it's also a bit of a moral obligation: if you're going to keep animals in a glass box, at least keep the conditions optimal.

-Ryan


----------



## addicted2cichlid

lars0420 said:


> Um, ya...this thread is kinda weird to me. I have never, never checked levels in my tank. I set it up, let it cycle...for a few days, maybe 1 day...then I put fish in. I kick back watch the fish grow and enjoy the tank. I agree with snakedoc! Why check every day and be all anal about it...don't you just want to enjoy the fish? Also, I have all sorts of crazy combos that most people don't dream of. The mix of fish I have right now, people told me it couldn't be done. And, it's in a 29 gallon. I think I change the water every 7-8 months. I add it when it needs more and sometimes I scrub the tank down. That's it. The only time fish die in my tanks is when I put feeders in there and the Africans go crazy on their A!!!!!


ignorant. if u go buy a test kit, send me the receipt, ill pay you back, just so u can see what ur fish are living in.


----------



## alicem

> Our fish reward my efforts with vibrant colors... which to me says "happy fish". I also feel that it's also a bit of a moral obligation: if you're going to keep animals in a glass box, at least keep the conditions optimal.


Well said, RyanR :thumb:

I often wonder if people like "lars0420" and "snakedoc" post that stuff just to get a _*rise* _out of people. :roll: 
:zz:
Alicem


----------



## prov356

riffraffxl said:


> There are also posters who I'm sure would say I'm overstocked (the venerable prov356 comes to mind).


I just gotta ask. Why would I say that :-?


----------



## lars0420

I'll admit, it's true! But, it's also true that I work my tanks that way. I have great filtration, which I keep in great condition. I worked in a fish store for a long time and have tested all sorts of water...just not my own. My knowledge and level of experience (20 years worth, at least) helps me to gauge what the fish need. I never have to change water in a "gross" tank because it doesn't get gross. You can see my cichlid tank in my profile on this site. I mainly wanted to make the point that most of you on this thread are fanatics in the other direction...and that daily/weekly water changes aren't necessary. The water in ANY tank evaporates and I actually add fresh water to my tank every 10 days or so. I just don't change out the old water often. My tanks are crystal clear...think what you want!



alicem said:


> Our fish reward my efforts with vibrant colors... which to me says "happy fish". I also feel that it's also a bit of a moral obligation: if you're going to keep animals in a glass box, at least keep the conditions optimal.
> 
> 
> 
> Well said, RyanR :thumb:
> 
> I often wonder if people like "lars0420" and "snakedoc" post that stuff just to get a _*rise* _out of people. :roll:
> :zz:
> Alicem
Click to expand...


----------



## remarkosmoc

Lars0420 said:


> The water in ANY tank evaporates and I actually add fresh water to my tank every 10 days or so. I just don't change out the old water often.


Contaminates and minerals don't evaporate out. The evaporate/top off cycle makes adds more and more and more "stuff" to the water and nothing ever comes back out except water.

I'm not on the side of the constant water changers, but I don't think there is any argument that cleaning every 8 months is acceptable or responsible.


----------



## CICHLUDED

Very true tannable75....



lars0420 said:


> My knowledge and level of experience (20 years worth, at least) helps me to gauge what the fish need.


Those of us who are not â€œall knowingâ€


----------



## crotalusfan

I just picked up a 20 gal tank from a very nice woman here in vegas. There were (2) 3" goldfish in the tank at the time I picked it up. I removed the water using my gravel vac. The water that came out from under the gravel, was one of the most discusting things I have ever seen. It was absolutely black, and actually stained the inside of my white 5 gal bucket. The water in the tank appeared crystal clear, but you know the fish can tell the difference. Just because you think the water is clean enough (and your fish don't die), doesn't mean the fish agree. You CANNOT see ammonia in a tank, but your fish will know, very well, that it is there.

I am not a water change freak, but I doubt I have ever gone more than a month. Not because I want to change the water or because the water looks bad, but because I know the fish are not as "happy" (and therefore not as healthy), as they could be.

After all it's all about the fish. At least for me. Maybe not for some of you?


----------



## snakedoc

Hey all, I'm not here trying to get a rise out of people but just from reading the previous posts, I can tell my way of doing things is different. My fish are colorful and active, they aren't stressed (as far as I can tell), they grow nicely, and my tanks are clean. I really try to set up my tanks so that I can minimize the work I have to put into maintenance, isn't that what my filter is for? I over filter and understock typically. 
I hope my view isn't offensive to anyone, I'm not saying that frequent water changes are bad for the fish. Although, like I said before, I definitely agree with the original author of this post, I think the water changing fad has become excessive. Then again, a hobby is what you make it.

As far as lars is concerned, he sounds pretty oldschool, experience probably counts for something doesn't it? Again, not that I agree with him 100%, but it would be interesting to hear more about how he does things, especially if he really is successful at it. I learn something new everyday.

Rich


----------



## lars0420

crotalusfan said:


> I just picked up a 20 gal tank from a very nice woman here in vegas. There were (2) 3" goldfish in the tank at the time I picked it up. I removed the water using my gravel vac. The water that came out from under the gravel, was one of the most discusting things I have ever seen. It was absolutely black, and actually stained the inside of my white 5 gal bucket. The water in the tank appeared crystal clear, but you know the fish can tell the difference. Just because you think the water is clean enough (and your fish don't die), doesn't mean the fish agree. You CANNOT see ammonia in a tank, but your fish will know, very well, that it is there.
> 
> I am not a water change freak, but I doubt I have ever gone more than a month. Not because I want to change the water or because the water looks bad, but because I know the fish are not as "happy" (and therefore not as healthy), as they could be.
> 
> After all it's all about the fish. At least for me. Maybe not for some of you?


Goldfish...wow! Dude, that's boss! Isn't that a whole different story? I mean, the substrate in my tank (sand) gets moved around all the time...remember, we're talking Cichlids here!! Never in my life have I seen something like you're describing. Are you like the "cichlid whisperer"? I mean, you seem to be so in touch with the fish...like you know what they think and feel...that's precious! That's an interesting idea: can you teach me how to know when the fish are happy or sad?

And, I agree...it IS all about the fish...not the water. I love watching the fish!!

I know a lot of you hate me right now. I'm fine with that. I'm completely comfortable with the way I roll.


----------



## lars0420

CICHLUDED said:


> Very true tannable75....
> 
> 
> 
> lars0420 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My knowledge and level of experience (20 years worth, at least) helps me to gauge what the fish need.
Click to expand...

Those of us who are not â€œall knowingâ€


----------



## zazz

i change my water about 40 percent weekly..and my water is as hard as **** from a deep water natural well..

so i figured whats the point in testing the water ...if i had a problem i would do weekly 40 percent changes anyway.

fish are very happy... :fish:

in fact after a long months vacation without any water changes a couple of my yellow prince developed red mouth and gills which went straight away after the first change when i returned...so i know the water change is needed.

ps...how can the word "helll" be given expletives :-?


----------



## iceblue

I run a hose out to one of my trees weekly and siphon off about 10% cleaning the substrate. I then leave the hose in the tank to siphon about another 40% while I clean my filters and tank. I've been doing this for well over 5 years and have never lost a fish to disease or poor water conditions. Do I really need to do this? I don't know. I stopped checking water parameters a long time ago. After a year of perfect readings I figured I was doing something right. Are large water water changes needed? I can't be sure, it's just how I roll.

Just out of curiosity lars0420. To prove your point, why not try doing weekly water changes starting out with small ones and working your way up to 40-50% per week and tell us if there are any changes in your fishes behavior. It would make an interesting experiment. :thumb:


----------



## lars0420

iceblue said:


> Are large water water changes needed? I can't be sure, it's just how I roll.
> 
> Just out of curiosity lars0420. To prove your point, why not try doing weekly water changes starting out with small ones and working your way up to 40-50% per week and tell us if there are any changes in your fishes behavior. It would make an interesting experiment. :thumb:


Dude, I like how you roll! More power to those who wish to change water all the time. As far as the experiment...I don't think so. It would be interesting, but I really believe that it's unnecessary. My tanks do well and have done well for years. If I were running salt water with marine life, I'd consider it, but not with fresh. It's just overkill to me.


----------



## JWerner2

zazz said:


> i change my water about 40 percent weekly..and my water is as hard as #%$& from a deep water natural well..
> 
> so i figured whats the point in testing the water ...if i had a problem i would do weekly 40 percent changes anyway.
> 
> fish are very happy... :fish:
> 
> in fact after a long months vacation without any water changes a couple of my yellow prince developed red mouth and gills which went straight away after the first change when i returned...so i know the water change is needed.
> 
> ps...how can the word "helll" be given expletives :-?


I don't know but words like **** ( krap spelled with a C ) do also.

Change your water!!!

Its the best thing for your fish next to feeding them of course.

And why not feed them more if you change more water???!!!! How can that not work out?


----------



## alicem

> ps...how can the word "helll" be given expletives





> I don't know but words like #%$& ( krap spelled with a C ) do also.


Because they are "cuss" words. Those type words are considered cursing.

There was a time, not that long ago, when 4 letter words weren't constantly spoken in normal everyday conversation.
Used to be, it was disrespectful to swear and most people reserved those words for non public speaking.
Now it's on tv constantly and we think it's funny and a given part of language.
People think nothing of swearing in front of children, the children think it is the norm and so it goes.

Don't get me wrong, I say that stuff too, it's easy to do. It's actually kind of sad that most people accept it...

It's just a different world and I suppose cichlid_forum is trying to keep it civil for all types of people.
 Alicem


----------



## Joels fish

> Dude, I like how you roll! More power to those who wish to change water all the time. As far as the experiment...I don't think so. It would be interesting, but I really believe that it's unnecessary. My tanks do well and have done well for years. If I were running salt water with marine life, I'd consider it, but not with fresh. It's just overkill to me


 I know this water change thing is starting to be like flogging a dead horse,but *lars0420* not doing regular water changes is just bad news. Even a 10% weekly change is better that just looking at the tank and thinking "it looks fine why monkey with it?". Without boring everone with the science of aquarium water chemistry, I'll say this NITRATES CAN KILL. They don't do it fast , but they eventually do. High concentrations lead to numerous health problems and in the worst cases death . You don't need to do 50% water changes every week but you do need to do them. Small changes done regularly will give your fish longer healthier lives than their current conditions. 
I respect your experience in the hobby (I've been at for 18 years myself) but This is basic stuff and you should at least see that this waterchange business is not a mania but part of a regular maintenance routine. You don't have to keep marine aquaria to benefit from a good maintenance schedual.


----------



## JWerner2

Off topic but I was always told by my Grand Ma to substitute the "S" word for the now known as "C" word :lol: . I can see the "H" word but not the "C" word.

Oh well to each his own I guess. I go on other forums that are not so disciplined and it can really be a pain when people constantly bash and call each other out. The fact that this forum is so "Civil" keeps me here :thumb: .

Back to water changes.

For those of you now that have left replies that you barely ever change the water:

_*Other things build up inside besides Nitrates and the other common 2 causes of illness or death!*_

*Some are even more slow at killing fish in a miserable way! You might not admit this but lots of contaminants due to average fall out from inside the home make way and build up I don't care if your room mate, husband, wife,..OTHER!! cleans everyday and does a white glove test it happens!*


----------



## fishwolfe

as a mechanic i know when my car is unhappy, then i add more oil.it burns oil so i'm always adding new,i just don't change out the old oil all that often :lol:


----------



## JWerner2

:x I do but I drive a Lincoln. :wink:

Wait aint that like my water evaporates so I just add more, why do a water change?


----------



## fishwolfe

something like that  i actually had a customer who said that about word for word :roll:


----------



## lars0420

You all crack me up! I just laugh as I read all the posts from the animal activists and water change extremists. I'm not an idiot, just here to provoke thought and discussion...I guess it worked.


----------



## zazz

troll troll troll your boat merrily down the stream :wink:


----------



## JWerner2

I think animal activist and water change extremists is very harsh. I love red meat, steak cooked rare to be exact and I hate my water bill, I just understand the values of my animals life.


----------



## CICHLUDED

lars0420 said:


> I'm not an idiot


 =D>


----------



## iceblue

lars0420 said:


> just here to provoke thought and discussion...


Most of that happened before you got here. The discussion as framed by the OP and carried through by other members generated a lot of thoughtful, informative discussion without having to be provocative. While it may have been spirited at times, not a one except you advocated no water changes at all. All the reasons to do so have been well explained, so far be it from me to be able to convince you otherwise.

lars0420 wrote:


> Are you like the "cichlid whisperer"? I mean, you seem to be so in touch with the fish...like you know what they think and feel...that's precious! That's an interesting idea: can you teach me how to know when the fish are happy or sad?


lars0420 wrote


> My knowledge and level of experience (20 years worth, at least) helps me to gauge what the fish need.


Wow. You don't do water changes or bother to check your water parameters and claim to know what your fish need. Are you a "cichlid whisperer" ?

Tonyh67. I went over and checked out your "Nitrate/Water Change Calculator". Good job. :thumb: I think my nitrAte tester is still good and I'll do some testing over the next few weeks to see if we can get some real world data for comparison.


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## JWerner2

:lol: @ the way you made this...


> Are you a "cichlid whisperer" ?


 sound like you were whispering! :lol:


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## blairo1

Well this turned from being some interesting conversation into plain bad news.

Anyone reading this who is new, based on SCIENCE and FACT for things we KNOW (and not just presume), please do your water changes.

They don't have to be daily, or even weekly, but it depends on the balance you create in your aquarium, so if you read your TDS, EC and at the very least your NitrAtes, use them as your guide. Don't be fooled by foolishness into not perfoming water changes.

Scientific fact tells us that these are solutions that will concentrate until they reach levels harmful to your fish, either in the short or long term. Whichever way you excuse it, it's harmful to your fish. Argue with that and you just show how little you understand about the science behind the ecology within our aquariums. Oh and I am aware of these tanks that people set up in a balance and blah blah blah - sure, with very careful tuning and incredibly light stocking I'm sure you can come close to really reducing waterchanges, but our aquariums are closed systems, too small in size to support the massive biological diversity that would be required to remove the necessity for water changes completely. The only way to remove such concentrations is through dilution. Topping up water from evaporation is not enough dilution to reduce the concentration of those toxic substances, even the most finely tuned system will need a small water change periodically (even if it's only by 5%). The thing is these types of systems need to be monitored, not just left to it, because they are so finely tuned the slightest error/mishap can cause problems and they will not be caught without monitoring, everything may appear fine, but the fish are now suffering a reduced life span, not an immediate or obvious death, but an early death non-the-less, hardly healthy is it.

End of, argue with me all you like, but you can't argue with the science behind it. You can have 50 years experience but it means nothing if those 50 years have been spent doing things incorrectly/insufficiently/without truly understanding.

If you want to keep fish, do the work that goes with it. If you can't manage that, take your fish to someone who will look after them properly.

Arguing that comparisons to nature are irrelevant is just plain stupidity - in nature water changes don't happen because it's a constant cycle, not just once a day, once a week, fortnightly. It's 24/7 that those toxic concentrations are being washed and diluted away, every minute, of every day. Do you think that what we do is even comparable!? Really! So is that an excuse to just not bother, I don't think so, what that tells me is that although fish can (obviously) survive an all sorts of poor conditions, they are just that, only surviving. I can survive in a terrible condition, with little food, filthy conditions etc, I'm alive, but am I thriving as I would be in a clean healthy environment.

Pretty obvious isn't it, what makes people believe it is any different for the fish in our tanks. Don't just keep them surviving, look after them properly and have them thrive.

I'm not a water change fanatic, I do it out of necessity because I understand the science behind the ecology, the science that tells me that toxic concentrations develop and that the ONLY way of removing them is through dilution as water changes. I agree some go nuts with it, but the majority of us do it simply out of necessity.

Trying to call people animal lovers for doing something that is a basic principle of care for keeping another living being alive, well that just speaks volumes about the individuals making such statements. You don't have to be an animal lover to look after something well, it's called taking responsibility for keeping a living being (and all that comes with it.)

Undoubtedly this thread is to be locked, to those who added intelligent useful conversation I thank you, it has been a fascinating read, the chart created works brilliantly and in all my experimenting with it thus far seems very accurate. To those reading this who are new, use your head, use the chart, use your readings and allow them to be your guide for when to do water changes.

That is not mania, that is called necessity. 
:thumb:


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## Joels fish

Well said *blairo1*.
=D> =D> =D>


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## JWerner2

Amazing!

I can actually agree with Joel on this :wink: :thumb: .

Great post Blairo1.

I hope this thread does not end up locked. It does now have all the info needed but it has been a fun thread for conversation among the hobbyists.


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## crotalusfan

I really think that this topic has gotten fairly ridiculous. Water changes are obviously not mandatory. There are no water change police. If you care about the health and well being of your fish, you will do water changes. If you are like my 3 year old son, and just want to watch your fish swim around in a glass box, you don't do water changes.

I am not a "cichlid whisperer" as lars0420 suggests, (I wish I was. That would be pretty cool.) but I have been educated enough over the last twenty some years to know how fish digestive and excretory systems work. I also know what fish wastes do to fish when built up in significant numbers. To say you don't need to do water changes, or even test the water, to see whether you need them or not, is just uneducated.

Keeping some fish in a tank for 20 years does not mean that you are a good fish keeper, or that you are doing anything correct. Also, your fish being alive, does not mean they are healthy.

Lars, when I refered to the "happyness" of my fish, I was not refering to an emotion. I don't really think fish brains are advanced enough for emotion. I was refering to their physical well being. Your fish are obviously not as healthy as they could be. I know you like watching them swim around, and they are still doing that. So you are getting what you want out of them. Congratulations. I, however, want healthy fish that grow the way they should, breed the way they should, and even display the colors they should. Those things CANNOT happen without water changes. No matter what you, or any other less than educated person on this post, suggest. Those are the things I am getting from my fish. So, congrats to me as well.


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## crotalusfan

Sorry. Double post.


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## riffraffxl

Holy cow, I come back from vacation and this thread is still alive.



prov356 said:


> riffraffxl said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are also posters who I'm sure would say I'm overstocked (the venerable prov356 comes to mind).
> 
> 
> 
> I just gotta ask. Why would I say that :-?
Click to expand...

I did a search for appropriate stocking levels and noted that your level of permissible nitrates is lower than mine. I found this interesting as I find your opinion valuable.


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