# a very good question about the moori



## crotalus43 (May 28, 2007)

Why haven't the scientific community have seperated the moori into differnt speices? There colorations are complete drastic from each other when their adults.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

The definition of a species is rather hard. The most modern interpretation is a type that will not on the whole interbreed in the wild if they were put together in the wild.

Many coulor and regional types that are well worth keeping separate in captivity (loads of stuff crosses in captivity that would not survive or successfully breed in the wild when they cross).

The science is far more lowly funded than the hobby. Very little money that is spent on the hobby gets into research on wild types. Scientists on the whole are not interested in hobby cichlids and the strange and bizarre things we do to them. Not representative or meaningful for natural populations or a study worth funding in their view.

That is not to say properly funded research into captive stocks of cichlid types is not being done.
It is poorly funded but I can give you a link or two to stuff I see on the web if you are interested.

Some good work on female preference of regional types was done on mbuna at Hull University not long ago. Sadly I think it had to stop due to lack of grants and funding I think.

I know of no funding for further study into Tropheus moorii (weather it is one species or many). There was some DNA research done and a study at Mpulungu when different types were dumped there when they were found not to be legally collected.
I could find that and give a link.
Speculation by Konings and Schupke can be found in the relevant hobby publications.
I can tell you those if you are interested.

No further breeding experiments or study of the sort which could find the answers is being done or is funded as far as I know. 

There may be over 60 colour types of moorii, not all are in the general hobby, which has considerably less but then some of those may or may not be crosses. 
I recommend you have a look at some of the less well known colour types of Tropheus moorii and how easy they are to tell apart. There are some that are very hard to tell apart as they show mood changes of colouration that overlap, honest.


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## crotalus43 (May 28, 2007)

sad to here about no research being done but i do see the mood swings in my moori i have 2 that flop colorations like every 5 minutes they are quit fun to watch (their almost lke cuttlefish) but not as fast but very close in the drastic color changes.


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## twofronts (Apr 23, 2003)

"There may be over 60 colour types of moorii, not all are in the general hobby, which has considerably less but then some of those may or may not be crosses. 
I recommend you have a look at some of the less well known colour types of Tropheus moorii and how easy they are to tell apart. There are some that are very hard to tell apart as they show mood changes of colouration that overlap, honest. "

24 that is very true, I beleive when I googled it, I read that there are over 100 of different tropheus species and genotypes or what have you. Its almost like they ones that we see on the forum are only the tip of the ice burg so to say.

Look at the red chimba, Kachease, and one other red colored fish. Under the right light they could pass for the other, also look at the Rainbows. They are all the same but different in there own unique way as far as color.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I think it is important to keep the idea that what scientists consider a species is very different form the types we in the hobby may want to keep as separate types. For example there is little or no difference in species I think between say Ndole and Chimba but a pure of either is well worth preserving in the hobby even if long term they turn out to be the same species.

I keep harping back to this but species as well as regional types cross readily in captivity.

Regional types are a bit of a (only for thise who are willing to pay and support WC) but are the ultimate in Tropheus types, I think.

Do not get me wrong TB of any Tropheus type be they cross or pure are wonderful fish. Just if you want wild type it is getting real hard to be sure.


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## crotalus43 (May 28, 2007)

I would agree, but that is not to say they donâ€™t cross in the wild there can be quite a bit of over lapping with species and territories which can create new species over time. On that may not, greatest example is the mule (sterilization). Or the species never fully takes off and then dies. I any case i would love to see the first Trophues species in the lake and what its colorations was.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Hybrids and variant crosses may well exist in the wild but I do not think they lead to new species in most cases. (Except rarely when there is a major change in lake levels, causing otherwise separate species into the same new environment, a hybrid new species may then emerge or one or more species may be lost). Hybrids are generally less well adapted to either environment of the species they come from and tend to either exist at low numbers on the boarders or die out. What causes specification in most cases is I think separation of habitats allowing separate populations to change (evolve) away from each other. The crossing individuals tend to hold this back. What I think we see in the Lake is specification happening on each separate bit of rocky coast (Separated by sandy coast largely uncrossable by Tropheus). It is complete in some cases and not yet complete in others.


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## flashg (Oct 5, 2007)

I just though I would add that I HIGHLY DOUBT Petsmart would have any rare moorii variant! Leave it to the chains to sell "Assorted Tropheus" :roll:


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 11, 2006)

chains?

There is a stateside wholesaler that offers a "grab bag" of tropheus/petros...


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## daniel4832 (May 8, 2004)

Which is why I have stopped dealing with LFS! :x 
Thanks,
Daniel


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## flashg (Oct 5, 2007)

eklikewhoa said:


> chains?
> 
> There is a stateside wholesaler that offers a "grab bag" of tropheus/petros...


Not in my state! Well maybe some of the LFS are just as bad as the chains!!! For tropheus do yourself a favor and only deal with reputable dealers! :wink:


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 11, 2006)

Well... this wholesaler/distributor supplies to a lot of the retailers one would deem "reputable".


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

It s a bit of a mixed bag here on Tropheus too. A couple of what I would normally describe as super shops, well their Tropheus I would not touch after seeing them, as well as a couple of mail order places. A couple of shops who are normally not that good seem to be getting stuff from a good local breeder, off and on. So it is rather hard to generalise.
Prices are all over the place and do not seem to reflect quality at all.

I do not think you can be too careful if you want stock to breed from.

If going for a cheap or "high class" source it is buyer beware here I think.


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## flashg (Oct 5, 2007)

eklikewhoa said:


> Well... this wholesaler/distributor supplies to a lot of the retailers one would deem "reputable".


Not cool my friend!!! Who would this "wholesaler/distributor be so I know who NOT to buy trophs from or to ask the "reputable" dealer if they buy from this tainted source? :?


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## crotalus43 (May 28, 2007)

But the biggest problem is just getting one family tree and keep breeding from that line thats the biggest down fall from any animal that we touch. Alot of deformadies and mistery illnesses can accure. it is very hard to find a breeder who takes this into acount.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Pretty much impossible I think. (Or rather I have not found one here) hence why folk go for F1s (first generation from wild) so much. Its not that F2s or F3s or many more generations could not be great fish it is just that they might have been messed up. (Either by crossing or inbreeding)


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