# sump or canister on 90 gallon



## skins4431 (Jul 20, 2011)

I just got a new tank 90 gallon tank. The cost of a canister filter is pretty high so I started looking at sumps. I have a 30 gallon breeder right now i could use that to make a diy sump but I want to know if I should or not.....OR..... should I suck it up and get a canister. I pretty handy so I wont have a problem drilling my tank.( never have done it )


----------



## madhatter (Apr 1, 2013)

Have you tried to mail order your canister. *Vendor Removed* has quite a few good deals. I saved about $60 when I ordered my Fluval 406.


----------



## skins4431 (Jul 20, 2011)

yeah I have looked but from what I read I need 2 canister if I went with a eheim classic or xp3. So for the cost of both of them I could go with an fx5 or eheim pro. Which makes sense in my head but I dont have any hard facts behind it.

Reasoning or thought behind the sump...
1. for the cost of those canister I can make a heck of a sump from what *** read. 
2. I already have a 30 gallon breed so all I would need is to drill, bulk head, plumb and get some glass cut for baffles. then bio media. plus a pump. which is what 120 bucks 
3. hides all heaters.

BUTT
is my logic right? Im not sure thats why I ask QUEST?ONS


----------



## madhatter (Apr 1, 2013)

You could use an overflow box instead of drilling your tank.


----------



## ShortBus (Aug 17, 2005)

I would Drill it


----------



## skins4431 (Jul 20, 2011)

yes thats always an option. *** seen the herbie overflow option which is appealing to me since its has a fail safe.

For canister I like how easy they are to use and setup but the cost is so much. If i went canister which one do yall recommend.

I am just playing with ideas. I'm not sure if i want to do a sump but I like the price. I need someone to convince me one way or the other.


----------



## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

Go wet dry. DIY or store bought, you won't be sorry. Much easier to maintain which means it's not as likely to get ignored like a canister. Changing the mechanical pads takes a couple seconds and will help remove a lot of waste preventing it from contributing to nitrate. That will also help with making water changes smaller. Don't get too complex with it, I see a lot of people having all these baffles and tons of sponges that just aren't necessary. I run a 100 micron pad over the wet dry media and it is totally black in one week.

Myself I don't like the herbie/bean overflows. The point of the overflow is to add extra O2 to the tank water before the wet dry media, and those overflows run mostly in full siphon which does nothing to raise O2 levels. I use a HOB overflow and can barely hear it, just a slight sucking sound as the air gets mixed with the water.


----------



## ShortBus (Aug 17, 2005)

The difference between sump and canister will come down to personal preference; both will end up costing about the same.
If you do a sump you would have to drill it or use an HOB overflow, there would be the cost of drill bit and bulkheads, and return pump. You can hide the heater better.

With a canister filter you are paying for a finished product, less time setting it up, Remember the flow rates that are given are without the filter media in them, with a sump you are spending more time setting it up but less time doing maintenance

I have a SW background so I will always go with a sump.

I would drill the tank with a herbie setup because of safety, primary drain and safety drain.

I would do a DIY a filter bag, spring clip to the side of the tank, I would use fast growing plants to filter the water (Water Sprite (Ceratopteris thalictroides) , clip on light with CPF, on the return I would plumb it to use Under-Gravel Jets, with a siphon break.

A sump will allow you to add extra water, just top off the amount of water that evaporates, the water level will in the main tank will always be the same.

So it all comes down to how much time you will spend doing maintenance, with my setup you would, Top off the water, change out the filter bag (turn it inside out and through it in the laundry), trash or give away a handful of the filter plants.


----------



## skins4431 (Jul 20, 2011)

ok so if I did sump 
what size bulkhead should I get for the 3 bulk head I need with a herbie....... 1.5 I think but not sure.
what size pump do I need to get?....... mag 7

anything else i need to know as a prospective newbie to sumps? mayb bulkhead placement on back.


----------



## ShortBus (Aug 17, 2005)

I would use a Eshopps type overflow box, under no circumstance would I use a weir style overflow
Pump size 700/900 gph,

If you are set on drilling, check out glass holes style overflow, or herbie style, 1.25/1.5" for the bulkheads

Read the article on Under-Gravel Jets, in the article section

The most important thing for me would be the *SIPHON BREAK* for the return, don't want a flood

Filter bags , just sew up some felt or there pretty cheap to pick up

Start a thread when you begin your project
Good luck


----------



## ShortBus (Aug 17, 2005)

If you didn't want to use your 30g as a sump, it might be easier to use 5 gallon buckets with UNI seals, 4 might fit,
bucket # 1 intake, # 2 plants, # 3 return & heater, if you could fit 4 buckets under your aquarium.
you would have an extra bucket for media or more plants


----------



## fishing12 (Dec 15, 2012)

skins4431 said:


> yes thats always an option. I've seen the herbie overflow option which is appealing to me since its has a fail safe.
> 
> For canister I like how easy they are to use and setup but the cost is so much. If i went canister which one do yall recommend.
> 
> I am just playing with ideas. I'm not sure if i want to do a sump but I like the price. I need someone to convince me one way or the other.


I just added an Eshopps Wet Dry to my 180 about two weeks ago. b3w4r3 walked me through the setup and it was pretty simple. My tank is not drilled and I'm using a overflow box with a HOB box on the back of the tank. My pump at the head height is running about 800GPH. With a 90 Im sure you could use a smaller pump. Before adding the wet dry I had two Eheim 2228 pro canister filters with a Fluval 306. Water was good with this setup but since I removed the 306 and added the Eshopps my water is Crystal clear, looks like the fish are floating on air. I resisted trying a wetdry for a long time and now I wouldn't run my tank without one. Easy to maintain and pretty amazing results. Good luck with whatever decision you make.


----------



## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

ShortBus said:


> I would use a Eshopps type overflow box, *under no circumstance would I use a weir style overflow*


I'm in a similar situation to the OP (planning a 125G and want to use a sump). I've been considering using a weir style overflow after reading Beananimal's site. Can you say more about why you think this style of overflow should be avoided?

Thanks.


----------



## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

I'd go with a sump and using an HOB overflow - I've used a marineland SOS overflow for about 10 years with no issues. Word of caution about using your 30 as a sump - be sure you can get it into the stand - you may need to install it first before putting the tank on the stand...this is why I have a 30 gallon sump in the unfinished basement, and a 10 gallon sump on my 125.  Just need sufficient motivation to break entire tank down for a deep cleaning, and have access to an extra body or 3.


----------



## ShortBus (Aug 17, 2005)

zimmy said:


> ShortBus said:
> 
> 
> > I would use a Eshopps type overflow box, *under no circumstance would I use a weir style overflow*
> ...


 The weir style overflow needs to be used with a second pump usually an aqua lifter or power head in the main tank to suction out the air that gets trapped or to maintain suction, so when you loose power to your tank there is a high risk of the overflow not starting, the the return pump will overflow your tank. The second pump is the weakest link.

Over time an overflow will suck some air bubbles the Weir type needs that second pump to clear the collected air, if its not cleared the air will build up and you will loose suction, U-tube type will also suck air bubbles, but there is enough flow to clear the bubbles out of the U-tube, the U-tube can fail also if you don't have enough flow going through it also

Both need to be cleaned, the weir type are very hard to clean, plus you can't see inside them, the U-tube is clear so you can see, plus you just need a bottle brush run through it and you are done

I have used both and I have learned the hard way and flooded out a room with the weir type.


----------



## ShortBus (Aug 17, 2005)

The best way is to see the overflow in action, both will collect and trap air bubbles, the weir type has more area and the water flow has less velocity so the air builds up and you loose suction, the U-tube type has less area and higher flow velocity and usually clears them, when it collects air bubbles they will combine into larger bubbles and they will be swept away by the higher velocity flow.


----------



## skins4431 (Jul 20, 2011)

so short bus you would recommend drilling with a herbie style overflow using 1 1/4 bulkhead and usings a mag 7 pump.
The sump design is another thing im trying to figure out. The sump would be a wet dry filter with bio balls and have a floss or some kind of mechanical media on top where the water enters. 
Has anyone ever used bio bale in a fluidized bed? I looked into that stuff. 
How many bioballs should I get if I go that route. ? a gallon?

Im still weighing the cost trying to figure out how much all this is going to cost. I'm cheap lol but willing to spend what I have to to do it right the first time.


----------



## fishing12 (Dec 15, 2012)

ShortBus said:


> The best way is to see the overflow in action, both will collect and trap air bubbles, the weir type has more area and the water flow has less velocity so the air builds up and you loose suction, the U-tube type has less area and higher flow velocity and usually clears them, when it collects air bubbles they will combine into larger bubbles and they will be swept away by the higher velocity flow.


Exactly how my eshopps works. I have two u tubes going into the HOB and I'm only able to maintain flow on one of them. The second one builds up air bubbles over a couple of hours and eventually loses siphon. The one tube keeps up fine with the overflow and never builds up the air pocket.


----------



## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

Thanks Shortbus!...and sorry to Skins4431 for intruding on your thread.


----------



## ShortBus (Aug 17, 2005)

skins4431 said:


> so short bus you would recommend drilling with a herbie style overflow using 1 1/4 bulkhead and usings a mag 7 pump.
> The sump design is another thing im trying to figure out. The sump would be a wet dry filter with bio balls and have a floss or some kind of mechanical media on top where the water enters.
> Has anyone ever used bio bale in a fluidized bed? I looked into that stuff.
> How many bioballs should I get if I go that route. ? a gallon?
> ...


As which pump to use is a personal choice, the mag 7 is cheaper than some, and more than others, the mag 7 takes twice as much energy to run it than some more energy efficient pumps that cost more up front. So the pump you pick will run 24/7/365&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..

You will have to choose what filter technology that you think is best for you, everyone will have their favorite and what works best for them. I tend to over think everything and try to choose the simplest method, the more complex the process, the more chances of things going wrong.

For me what I think works best is filter bags, nutrient export and water changes, the filter bags have a large surface area to catch the larger particles, very easy to change, fast growing plants take up the waste products and as they grow I will remove some of them from the system, and water changes.

I would use a U-tube overflow, if you want to drill then drill it,

Bulkhead size is based on how much water you are going to flow through it, choose a pump (gph), pick the right bulkhead size based on gph that it can handle


----------



## ShortBus (Aug 17, 2005)

Its all about information and learning what works best for each of us.



zimmy said:


> Thanks Shortbus!...and sorry to Skins4431 for intruding on your thread.


----------



## skins4431 (Jul 20, 2011)

Zimmy no worries. I agree with short bus we are here for information.

I'll have to look into the hob overflows. I might just suck it up and buy a canister. It's actually about the same once you add everything up. If it was a big price difference in one or the other I'd be all over it. Thanks for yalls thoughts on this.

I've thought about buying a fx5 but read people would rather have a Eheim pro. Anyone have thoughts on this.


----------



## fishing12 (Dec 15, 2012)

skins4431 said:


> Zimmy no worries. I agree with short bus we are here for information.
> 
> I'll have to look into the hob overflows. I might just suck it up and buy a canister. It's actually about the same once you add everything up. If it was a big price difference in one or the other I'd be all over it. Thanks for yalls thoughts on this.
> 
> I've thought about buying a fx5 but read people would rather have a Eheim pro. Anyone have thoughts on this.


I have two Eheim pros running on my 180 as well as the wet dry. They are older 2228models but run flawlessly. I have also used Fluval canisters and found no issues with them either. My largest Fluval was an old 404. I never ran an fx5 but from what *** read and have seen at a lfs you cant compare a 404 (406) to an fx5. The only other thought that I have is perhaps you may want to consider running two smaller filters on the tank for redundancy as opposed to one larger filter. The advantages being redundancy in case the unlikely scenario where something should go wrong with one of them at least you still have one up and running. Also for maintenance maybe it would be better to alternate the cleaning schedule of two canisters so you have one where the bio is not being disturbed while the other gets cleaned. Just my thoughts for what they are worth.


----------



## skins4431 (Jul 20, 2011)

Thanks for you input. I have thought about doing two 2217 or xp3.


----------



## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

skins4431 said:


> Thanks for you input. I have thought about doing two 2217 or xp3.


On my 110G I was running a 2217 and 2262. They provided excellent biological filtration and so-so mechanical filtration (my main mechanical filtration was massive weekly water changes). Cleaning the filters was not fun. Easier maintenance is the main reason I'm thinking of moving to a sump when I set up the 125G.


----------



## canadasbeast (Apr 26, 2013)

I currently have a ehiem pro 3 2080 as well as an fx5 as well as a pro flex 4 sump all on there own 220 gallon tanks and i prefer the sump


----------

