# enantiopus melanogenys "kilesa" - QUESTIONS



## Koteckn (May 16, 2012)

Well, as the title says, I have a few questions regarding Kilesa.









I found a juvenile group of 5 at a LFS for $70.00. Does this, first, seem like a fair price? I believe it is as i've seen 1.25"-1.50" going for $25 a fish (+ shipping) and these fish are every bit of 1.25"

I plan to house them in a 20L with fine sand being filtered with a 20L sump as I know they grow to 5-6". Starting with 5, we plan to weed out the unwanted males and females to end up with a 1m:2f ratio in the end. I believe this should work, but if anyone has any concerns, please let me know.

What type of biotope is best for these guys? I already know that they enjoy fine sand, which is already bought/washed and in the 10gal (1 of 2 bags). Do they enjoy a deep sand bed or shallow? I know the male will build elaborate "nests" which is why i'm wondering if they prefer a deeper sand bed than say multi's. Any other rocks/shells or just an open sand tank?

I have biomax seeding right now in my 33L shellie tank filters for the 10gal to be cycled for Saturday when we pick them up. Since they are going into a 10gal for the time being, what kind of growth should we be seeing out of these guys? Is it the typical 1" a month or do they grow slower than say your normal cichlids?

They will be housed in a 10gal for a few weeks as the final set-up will be DIY'd, look here for that thread (viewtopic.php?f=30&t=257575).

Anything that I'm forgetting, please remind me of. That means ANYTHING. :thumb:

I look forward to hearing what you all have to say...

Thanks again,

- Howie


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

Is that a pic of the actuall fish? If they are indeed Kilesa, that is a great price. Sad news is, a 20l is nowhere near big enough to house them.


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## Koteckn (May 16, 2012)

The actual fish (5) are all juveniles around 1.5" i'd guess.

20Long not 20Liter and I understand that they grow to 5-6" given a male. Given my experience, and their temperament (calm/peaceful), I think I can make a 1m:2f ratio work in a tank of this size, this is personal thought of course so comments like above are always appreciated and wanted actually. There are always going to be pros/cons and I'm aware of that. This is also the reason why I am building a sump the same size as the show tank, to deal with the waste of a larger fish in a smaller tank. If not, I have multiple other tanks around the house. This is just a start and I know if I don't snatch them asap they'll be gone. I put a reserve on them today to pick them up tomorrow though so I will upload some pictures of them in their temporary biotope.

- H


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

The reason I ask if that is the fish, is because you said Melanogenys Kelisa. They are two different fish. I keep Kelisa in 6' 210g tank, and have kept Melanogenys in a 5' 110g tank. I know of people that have and do keep them in a 75g tank. I personally would not keep either one in anything less than 60"x18". These fish like to swim, and the males build bowers that are two feet across. They will be o.k for a while but you should consider a larger tank in the future.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

It sounds like a lot of money to me. (Kind of a rip off) you can get adult WC in the UK at £30.00ea juveniles should be £5 or £8 at max. Sure they are great fish if short lived and need a lot of open sand. 60"x18" being good for a big group. You can prob manage a single male plus females in a wide four foot for a good long time.
Me I have not spotted any difference other than location in the Enantiopus melanogenys and the Enantiopus sp. "Melanogenys Kilesa"
Its kind of unkown as to if its going to turn out to be sperate species or just variants of the same species or even if they should be popped back in with the Xenotilapia.
Yep kind of enjoy em while they last but for sure go for more and a bigger tank when you want to give em a serious go.

All the best James


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Me I have the 60"x18" tank ready and found a local breeder of both. But having real probs deciding as to which to go for. I kind of prefer the melanogenys but been there done that so may go Kelisa this time.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

I have only ever heard of them refered to as Enantiopus sp. Kilesa. What do you mean James when you say not spotted any difference other than location? Kilesa have yellow throats, Melanogenys don't. Unless I've got the wrong end of the stick. I just clocked the size of the fry, it's actually not that great a deal as you say. $15.00 ea for 1 1/2" fry is about the going rate over here. I paid $25.00 for young adults that were coloured up and spawning as soon as I got them.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Colouration is not usualy an indication of separate species. They for sure look like different location variants of the same species to me. Kind of think we are waiting on DNA studies to be more sure though.
For sure keep em separate and for sure try and get the location on the melanogenys as different locations have different colours.

Wow I think I sould grab these £5-£8 guys ASAP. I had no idea they were so expensive in the US. :thumb:

All the best James


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Oh guess I should clarify so called WC adult Enantiopus sp."Kilesa" are £48.00ea here and WC adult Enantiopus melanogenys (Kekese) £30.00ea. No idea why the price difference as both are great fish but out of my reach price wise.
Breeding large tank bred are pretty much so rare hard to give a price most get sold as juveniles and are snapped up at various prices.

All the best James


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

The market here is very volitile. Prices quickly go all over the place. Both sellers and buyers being very few and far between.

Kind of all you have to do is post pics of the adults on the auction forum and the price you get more than doubles.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

A mature wild kilesa is a $70+ fish and worth every penny. A quality F1 kilesa fry at 1.50" is a $25 fish (that was when wild fish had not come into the country for a long time with little hope of seeing them again). We were down to two or three people left in the US breeding wild kilesa (and I was one of those people). I have seen wild kilesa starting to show up on fish lists again. Once we start seeing more F1 being pumped into the hobby, supply & demand might have an impact on the $25 per F1 fry price.

1m??? A huge disappointment! Wow! I know the species well and I think that is a HUGE mistake! The interaction among competing males is a treat. Also, there is NEVER not competition in the wild. Competing males will not kill each other.

Your tank is too small - probably will end up being the size of one male's pit. A male needs to lure a female into his pit and will drive everyone else away from it. A 20L is just wrong. Sorry, you asked for opinions. As an experienced kilesa keeper, I just wanted to shoot straight with you. I thought my 72 bow front tank was too small.

Best wishes!

Russ


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## Koteckn (May 16, 2012)

I agree and know the tank is too small and after watching these little guys this weekend, we'll most likely give them the space they need. I will most likely keep one of my fish from my 75gal in the 20 long as a wet pet and move these to the 75 and add some cyps or something along those lines. For now though, as babies, the space they have is plenty i'd have to say. They are all very small and no color is showing yet. I'm pumped for the morph they'll go through here in the future. I'm not positive that they are kilesa, and seem to believe they are the ones that get a black nose? Any input on what exactly they are would be great, if they are large enough to even tell yet. This tank is scratched up and filthy but this is a temp tank until we get the 20L temporary system complete.

Let me know what you think.




























- H


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## Koteckn (May 16, 2012)

Russ, I also totally understand and agree with you at this point. No hard feelings, I appreciate your response.

- H


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Koteckn said:


> Russ, I also totally understand and agree with you at this point. No hard feelings, I appreciate your response.
> 
> - H


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

I dug us some juvie pics to help.

This male, I can't recall exactly, was probably two to three inches and started to colour up and display. Blue on the forehead can be evidenced close to the size yours are??? Yellow/orange throat with black streamers on the bottom fins -that's kilesa.



















Females won't have that blue on the forehead


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Koteckn said:


> I agree and know the tank is too small and after watching these little guys this weekend, we'll most likely give them the space they need. I will most likely keep one of my fish from my 75gal in the 20 long as a wet pet and move these to the 75 and add some cyps or something along those lines. For now though, as babies, the space they have is plenty i'd have to say. They are all very small and no color is showing yet. I'm pumped for the morph they'll go through here in the future. I'm not positive that they are kilesa, and seem to believe they are the ones that get a black nose? Any input on what exactly they are would be great, if they are large enough to even tell yet. This tank is scratched up and filthy but this is a temp tank until we get the 20L temporary system complete.
> 
> Let me know what you think.
> 
> ...


You may have all females?


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## Koteckn (May 16, 2012)

haha, I'm really not sure but I hope that's not the case. The biggest is at, just about ~2 inches if I would have to guess. Out of the 5, two are at least a half inch larger than the other 3. I'm hoping this means I have 2 males based solely on size difference at this point. I guess time will tell, these little guys are verocious eaters so hopefully sooner than later. I'll update as time passes.

Thanks for the pictures for a reference Russ, much appreciated.

- H


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

IME all should show no colour at 2" or smaller, so my guess is each one has a 50 50 chance of being iether sex. Kind of why they sell em so small. Otherwise when looking to breed we would select against males.
It for sure would not be a problem if they all turned out female here in the UK. When bigger you can only get females by buying em as "pairs".
Odd males can kind of be picked up real cheap.

All te best James


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

At two inches, you might start seeing a "trace" of some blue on the foreheads of the males within the next six months. I can't recall if I saw hints at that size with mine??? By 3 inches you should have an idea of which ones are the boys. One might even surprise you and start digging his pit 

Have fun watching them, enjoy, and be patient 

Russ


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## Mr Mbuna (Nov 16, 2007)

I paid £48 each for wild fish in the UK and I sold my fry at £5 each - I know, a giveaway, but that is the way it is in my part of the UK, very little demand for tangs. In a shop, I would expect to pay at least £12 for a tank bred. I would warn you about one thing - these guys leap! They will find the smallest crack and torpedo out. I lost two adults like this - Ouch!
Mine began to colour up at 2.5-3" if I recall. They are fine in a smallish tank until they reach breeding age, but they are very active then and the dominant male can be very aggressive and persistent in his attentions to both other males and females (not damagingly so, but just constant hassle). I would recommend a 5' tank as a minimum for a breeding group. I bred mine in a 6'. Also, yes, get more than 1 male - they are the stars, the females are relatively drab.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Mr Mbuna said:


> I paid £48 each for wild fish in the UK and I sold my fry at £5 each - I know, a giveaway, but that is the way it is in my part of the UK, very little demand for tangs. In a shop, I would expect to pay at least £12 for a tank bred. I would warn you about one thing - these guys leap! They will find the smallest crack and torpedo out. I lost two adults like this - Ouch!
> Mine began to colour up at 2.5-3" if I recall. They are fine in a smallish tank until they reach breeding age, but they are very active then and the dominant male can be very aggressive and persistent in his attentions to both other males and females (not damagingly so, but just constant hassle). I would recommend a 5' tank as a minimum for a breeding group. I bred mine in a 6'. Also, yes, get more than 1 male - they are the stars, the females are relatively drab.


Yep its a buyers market here I guess because our shops do not know good fish from bad and most only give to 30% in credit on what they will sell at!

Must contact that breader before the price goes up. All this talk and showing wild ones will have an effect I guess. :wink:

Sadly no way I can afford £48 a pop for adult WC. But would prob be happy to pay quite a bit more than £5 as long as they are bigger than 2". Pretty much still fry. :wink:


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## bullit (Apr 9, 2010)

24tropheus. Where have you seen them? as i have bought some enants recently and saved some more . cheers


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Mr Mbuna said:


> ...I would warn you about one thing - these guys leap! They will find the smallest crack and torpedo out. I lost two adults like this - Ouch!...


+1 on that! They rocket out of the tank. You have to practice a slow deliberate approach at feeding time.

Russ


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Mr Mbuna said:


> ...the females are relatively drab.


+1

I've posted a bunch of images on males, guess I'll put up a few of my wild females. As far as colour goes, this is about as good as it gets with the girls...


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## Mr Mbuna (Nov 16, 2007)

24Tropheus said:


> Sadly no way I can afford £48 a pop for adult WC. But would prob be happy to pay quite a bit more than £5 as long as they are bigger than 2". Pretty much still fry. :wink:


Well neither can I, (even though I did) but I look at it this way, I spend £300 or so on a group of wilds. I have quality fish; they breed, prolifically; the fry are F1, you sell them, you get your money back. I don't make profit on my fish but I do try to cover my costs and I usually do (except with frontosas which won't breed as yet). Also with adult fish, they breed soon after purchase rather than waiting for a year and they have larger broods, so you recoup your money faster than buying F1 fry. Any money I make on selling fish goes back into buying more fish. This keeps the wife happy as well as me.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Mr Mbuna said:


> 24Tropheus said:
> 
> 
> > Sadly no way I can afford £48 a pop for adult WC. But would prob be happy to pay quite a bit more than £5 as long as they are bigger than 2". Pretty much still fry. :wink:
> ...


I do the same. Fry sales more than cover hobby expenses. You will quickly recoup your money on a group of F0 kilesa with F1 fry sales. With that said, if I were to buy a new F0 group of kilesa, I would get them as young as possible to not miss out on any spawns. Get in early on an import with your importer - be the first to commit. Buy more than you need and get them as young as possible (maybe one mature male the other two younger).

Russ


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

bullit said:


> 24tropheus. Where have you seen them? as i have bought some enants recently and saved some more . cheers


They were at the Southern Group auction of the BCA plus at the East Anglia Cichild Group auction.
Funny enough the none Kilesa melanogenys sold better and at a higher price at both.
I guess because the breeder was better known and they were larger.
I can give you the sellers/breeders names by PM if interested.

For sure PM me if I do not PM you first Mr Mbuna you sound a good guy to get to know and maybe get some from. :thumb: 
WC at Mikes Rifts of caurse. Swallow sometimes gets some Czeck bred ones in but kind of like to know the guys I buy from (as I do the sellers at EACG and SG auctions) plus cut out the middle men kind of thing.

Me I know I am a rubbish breeder of WC esp where stripping is concerned and would just love some good home bred ones to grow on and enjoy again.

All the best James


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Kind of the only reason I do not have em already as there were lots of tasty tangs at both auctions and at the time my interest and money was taken up with Tropheus and others. :wink:


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## SmellinFishy (Mar 17, 2013)

Can any of you tell me why you do not get some f1's to breed with instead of just f0's?.. Is there that big of difference in them? My kelisas are f1's are they worth trying to spawn?


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

SmellinFishy said:


> Can any of you tell me why you do not get some f1's to breed with instead of just f0's?.. Is there that big of difference in them? My kelisas are f1's are they worth trying to spawn?


That's, kinda, a frequent question: I'll give it a go...
1. With Tangs, Wild caught (F0) are the premiere choice for a breeding group for a few reasons:
2. In theory, you will have the best genetic diversity/quality (vs. a group of F1s which are most likely siblings spawning with each other). 
3. F0 is a status thing in the hobby with some folks (right or wrong - you decide).
4. F0 are expensive so many people will choose to get the next best thing, at a cheaper price, which is F1. Also figuring that F1 will still have excellent "genetics/quality."
5. Many people in the hobby will buy an F1 fish but will not buy an F2 (also considered TR tank raised). It is a preference thing.
6. I am sure there are many people that would buy F2+ - if you want to market F2 fry, I would make sure you get males from another source so you can make customers aware that your F2 fry are not from siblings.

Are F1s worth trying to spawn? I say yes. Have fun with it, enjoy this aspect of the hobby. Kilesa (any kilesa) are fun to watch and spawning is the reason for all that wonderful activity that we enjoy about them. If you want to market your fry, just be honest with people and I am sure they will sell.

Market Conditions are an important factor in answering that question (and can change): up until very recently, there have not been any wilds coming into the country for some time with little hope of that changing. F1 breeding groups were, almost, the future of the hobby for this species (we were down to a few of us with wilds producing fry - I was thinking about saving an F1 breeding group). Supply and demand conditions were almost perfect for an F1 breeding group. That has recently changed as F0 have started coming in from the lake again.

Hope that helps!

Russ


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

For this species (and genus) I would add one downside of adult WC.
Being a sort lived cichlid they will not last all that long esp if big.
Breed em then lose em. Its kind of a lot of pressure for a hobbiest when so pricy.
Kind of why I seek out those that breed WC and buy from them. Hopefilly they cover some of their costs and I get what I want too. I do like em quite big (find they do better for me, if someone else has done most of the hard work) but just finding hobby breeders quite a struggle.

All the best James


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## bullit (Apr 9, 2010)

If you can James. cheers


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I would also add that breeding F1s is not as easy as it might sound. They tend to start breeding before the females are large enough to hold to term. This means small week fry and stunted females.
There may be some milage in separating the sexes so they can grow without breeding and then introduce em back together at over 4".

Its not only genetics that makes close to wild better fish but the way we keep and breed the species in captivity also has a major effect on how good they turn out.


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## Mr Mbuna (Nov 16, 2007)

They are short lived spawners that is true. One of my females had about 4 spawns and then just seemed like she was done; thats when I sold them! So if you are going to buy wild, be the first; don't buy them second hand!


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