# mbuna as a "wetpet"?



## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

I have a spare 15g (long) that I'm thinking of using for a single fish. A "wetpet" type set-up, similar to ppl who have a single Red Devil or Oscar in a 55g.

Right now, the fish I'm considering is a male Auratus.

Has anyone here kept an mbuna alone long term? ...and how did they do? Will an mbuna make as a good a wetpet as an Oscar or an RD?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

They are not solitary fish, and would most likely hide and be unhappy.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Imho, no... Malawian cichlids don't make a good wet pet. In a small tank without tank mates, my take is that the cicchlid basically shuts down. Very boring...


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

Fogelhund said:


> They are not solitary fish, and would most likely hide and be unhappy.


not solitary? Ad Konings discription of almost all the Melanochromis sp (with the exception of M. Lepidiadaptes) are that they're solitary, wandering with no territory in search of food and become territorial only when breeding, which they then vacate after mating.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

oehtam said:


> not solitary? Ad Konings discription of almost all the Melanochromis sp (with the exception of M. Lepidiadaptes) are that they're solitary, wandering with no territory in search of food and become territorial only when breeding, which they then vacate after mating.


This may be true. When you put a group in a tank, they became very social, though. In any case, 15 gallons is too small for a single melanochromis to feel comfortable in, in my opinion.


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

Maybe in a 20g or 30g will be better then.

I've kept mbunas before in a 75g, and there where occasions when I had to isolate a male or a female.

I grew out an M. chipokae in a 10g alone for almost a year, and it never hid or "shut down", it was always active.

The reason I'm considering M. auratus is from what I've read in Ad Konings observastions in the wild, M. auratus (like all Melanochromis) are solitary and not a sedentary species, which explains auratus' lack of geographical variants, a contrast to the majority of cichlids both new world and old.

The Oscar and the RD complex fall in the sedentary category and interacts more so in a community and form pairs, yet ppl keep them alone.


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## heyzeusbrains (Jul 12, 2011)

I had a single auratus in a tank smaller than that at my office and he swam around quite content, and was very affectionate towards me (great wet pet!). He reminded me more of a puppy than a fish, and in fact he was the first african cichlid to capture my heart. This was not a long-term setup however. One thing - I don't know if a single male auratus would change his colors being all alone (mine did not until he went into a community tank). And personally I prefer the mature male coloration.


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## Sparrk (Oct 11, 2010)

you could try a crayfish they are great wet companion, they re solitary, will happily eat anything you give him. They are easy to keep too. At the beginning I wasnt sure to buy mine, but I have no regrets, my crayfish is a great wet pet


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

Sparrk said:


> you could try a crayfish they are great wet companion, they re solitary, will happily eat anything you give him. They are easy to keep too. At the beginning I wasnt sure to buy mine, but I have no regrets, my crayfish is a great wet pet


crayfish...I need to think about that one  . Right now I'm leaning more towards a fish. I have a 17y/o (approx) paradisefish living on a 20g long. If and when he does go to fish heaven  , I want to have another fish, of similar size to replace it.

Sparrk, How long have you had your crayfish?


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

heyzeusbrains said:


> I had a single auratus in a tank smaller than that at my office and he swam around quite content, and was very affectionate towards me (great wet pet!). He reminded me more of a puppy than a fish, and in fact he was the first african cichlid to capture my heart. This was not a long-term setup however. One thing - I don't know if a single male auratus would change his colors being all alone (mine did not until he went into a community tank). And personally I prefer the mature male coloration.


thanks for sharing, how big was your auratus when it was alone in the tank?


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## Melanochromis (Mar 30, 2005)

When I first started keeping Malawi mbuna a few years ago (and when I was still learning about mbuna) I kept a Melanochromis Chipokae in a 25 gallon long. I can honestly say that he was so depressed and bored and spent most of the day hiding or digging in the sand. I've seen lone male Melanochromis and other mbuna behave in a similar fashion in LFS tanks. Mbuna are active and social fish, it's not a good idea to keep them on their own.



> not solitary? Ad Konings discription of almost all the Melanochromis sp (with the exception of M. Lepidiadaptes) are that they're solitary, wandering with no territory in search of food and become territorial only when breeding, which they then vacate after mating


This may be true, but Ad Konings is making reference to the behaviour of the fish in the wild. It's not the same in the aquarium. Tank bred fish are different than their wild counterparts, especially when you take into consideration the different parameters of the aquarium and the wild, such as the aquarium being limited in space and the lake being almost limitless in comparison.


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

Melanochromis said:


> This may be true, but Ad Konings is making reference to the behaviour of the fish in the wild.


Yes, all the statement I cited from Ad Konings are observations in the wild, and until another reputable ichthyologist proves otherwise, I'm taking his word as gospel  !


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

oehtam said:


> Melanochromis said:
> 
> 
> > This may be true, but Ad Konings is making reference to the behaviour of the fish in the wild.
> ...


Point being, it doesn't mean the same thing in an aquarium, as it does in the wild. In the wild, it typically means that both males and females hold territories that exclude all others. The difference being, the other species, just the males do this.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Out of curiosity... those on here saying that a mbuna or a crayfish can be a wet pet... have you ever kept one of the SA or CA "wet pet" cichlids?

I keep thinking about my solitary african cichlids versus the real "wet pets" I have had and the difference was knight and day. We are not talking about begging for food... mbuna do that all the time. _


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

Fogelhund said:


> oehtam said:
> 
> 
> > Melanochromis said:
> ...


How does your statement apply to RDs or Oscars?

As I've noted from literature, Auratus' don't hold feeding territories and only become territorial when breeding. They temporarily defend an area where females are present, then vacate once they mated.

This probably explains why ppl have so much horror stories with Auratus', as they are confined to a given area in an aquarium (after mating or when sexually mature). Unable to vacate it in search of other areas/females, they are forced to continually defend it to the detriment of the other fish in the tank


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

Number6 said:


> Out of curiosity... those on here saying that a mbuna or a crayfish can be a wet pet... have you ever kept one of the SA or CA "wet pet" cichlids?
> 
> I keep thinking about my solitary african cichlids versus the real "wet pets" I have had and the difference was knight and day. We are not talking about begging for food... mbuna do that all the time. _


Years back, I've kept both an Oscar and RD (Midas). Right now, I have a single 17 year old paradisefish/gourami. As far as behavior, I don't really see a difference and my paradisefish behaves like a CA cichlid. In fact, my paradisefish is the one who killed my almost full grown Midas.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

oehtam said:


> How does your statement apply to RDs or Oscars?
> 
> As I've noted from literature, Auratus' don't hold feeding territories and only become territorial when breeding. They temporarily defend an area where females are present, then vacate once they mated.
> 
> This probably explains why ppl have so much horror stories with Auratus', as they are confined to a given area in an aquarium (after mating or when sexually mature). Unable to vacate it in search of other areas/females, they are forced to continually defend it to the detriment of the other fish in the tank


I get that you are looking for approval for what you intend to do, but I just can't agree.

My statement doesn't apply to RD's or Oscars. These are substrate spawning cichlids, and their behaviour as such is completely different. A substrate spawner will more aggressively defend their territories, than that of a more transient mouth brooder. Having said that, if you increase the scale of your aquarium, you could keep many RD's and Oscars together, as people do mbuna.


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

Fogelhund said:


> I get that you are looking for approval for what you intend to do, but I just can't agree.
> 
> My statement doesn't apply to RD's or Oscars. These are substrate spawning cichlids, and their behaviour as such is completely different. A substrate spawner will more aggressively defend their territories, than that of a more transient mouth brooder. Having said that, if you increase the scale of your aquarium, you could keep many RD's and Oscars together, as people do mbuna.


Actually, approval is not even on my list, just feedback from ppl who have done it  . I can't follow the logic on why I would need approval.



Fogelhund said:


> ..... *if you increase the scale of your aquarium, you could keep many RD's and Oscars together, as people do mbuna*.


Then what is the uproar on keeping a single mbuna (in a 15g or 20g) if you don't have the space for many of them? Surely that is analogous to ppl keeping a single RD or Oscar because they don't have an aquarium large enough to accommodate many (in a community setting like in their natural habitat).


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

To be honest I do not think its a huge issue keeping one Mbuna on its own in a 20g or so. But I do not think you would find it as interesting as keeping other cichlids. Mbuna are large lake fish (used to interacting in large areas with a large number of other Mbuna) and thus are not adapted well to learning new behaviour. (solitary meens not staying with other individuals of the same species. It does not meen being alone in a small box) A cichlid from a small lake or changable environment like ponds will prob interact with the keeper more and be a "better" wet pet.
But then in a 20g there are cichlids (shellys etc) that you could keep and breed which I would have thought a more interesting option than a single Mbuna or any single cichlid. But then I have kept individual big cichlids in 55g (usually after failed attemps to breed them) and enjoyed it. But enjoy keeping cichlid communities more.

All the best James


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

oehtam said:


> Actually, approval is not even on my list, just feedback from ppl who have done it


I've done it more than once, and I saw a very big difference in behavior of the mbuna... but...



oehtam said:


> Years back, I've kept both an Oscar and RD (Midas). Right now, I have a single 17 year old paradisefish/gourami. As far as behavior, I don't really see a difference and my paradisefish behaves like a CA cichlid. In fact, my paradisefish is the one who killed my almost full grown Midas.


if you do not notice differences that you felt were significant, then there is no reason I can think of why you shouldn't go ahead and try it. The behavioral differences that I noticed were very significant to my eye and all I felt I was left with was a mbuna that did nothing much more than beg for food.

I hope that helps.


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## heyzeusbrains (Jul 12, 2011)

oehtam said:


> heyzeusbrains said:
> 
> 
> > I had a single auratus in a tank smaller than that at my office and he swam around quite content, and was very affectionate towards me (great wet pet!). He reminded me more of a puppy than a fish, and in fact he was the first african cichlid to capture my heart. This was not a long-term setup however. One thing - I don't know if a single male auratus would change his colors being all alone (mine did not until he went into a community tank). And personally I prefer the mature male coloration.
> ...


Mine was approximately two and a half inches long, and he was very happy and active during the short time he spent alone. Really though, he was not in there long enough for me to offer any definitive conclusions about keeping solitary mbuna (it was only a couple weeks).


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

oehtam said:


> Years back, I've kept both an Oscar and RD (Midas). Right now, I have a single 17 year old paradisefish/gourami. As far as behavior, I don't really see a difference and my paradisefish behaves like a CA cichlid. In fact, my paradisefish is the one who killed my almost full grown Midas.


Erm sounds like the fish had gone seriously mad being kept on its own rather than an argument that fish do well alone.
Think about it if a 6" or 12" CA were to attack you outside its breeding period would you think that natural behaviour? Yet tank kept single guys try this all the time. Move one and it becomes a victim as moving any large CA cichlid does their heads in for a while.
My guess is if you moved the paradise fish into a CA cichlid single fish tank you would have a single live and a single dead fish. Just the resident fish is always the surviver. :wink:


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

24Trophes, Number6.....Thanks for the feedback. I'm considering M auratus a potential replacement in the future for my single 17y/o paradisefish that's living alone in planted display aquarium.

Since I have an empty 15g, I'm considering making a similar type display set-up, but this time with rocks and with really robust plants that can tolerate alkaline water and abuse from an mbuna.



Number6 said:


> if you do not notice differences that you felt were significant, then there is no reason I can think of why you shouldn't go ahead and try it.


The paradisefish/gourami I have is a Labyrinth sp. that has been documented to behave like a cichlid (including caring for their young), and boy were they right! It behaves very much like an CA cichlid. Although less than 6", the tankmates that it has killed in the first 10 years of it's life are like the "Who's who" of the cichlid world. His last kill was my Midas which was 2x his length (and more the 5x his biomass).


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

24Tropheus said:


> Erm sounds like the fish had gone seriously mad being kept on its own rather than an argument that fish do well alone.
> Think about it if a 6" or 12" CA were to attack you outside its breeding period would you think that natural behaviour? Yet tank kept single guys try this all the time. Move one and it becomes a victim as moving any large CA cichlid does their heads in for a while.
> My guess is if you moved the paradise fish into a CA cichlid single fish tank you would have a single live and a single dead fish. Just the resident fish is always the surviver. :wink:


When I bought the paradisefish, I was very much new to fishkeeping  , and this was before the age of "internet". The "knowledgeable" people who gave me advice on how to keep him in a community treated it like it was just a regular paradisefish. Of course when I finally learned that many ppl have successfully kept one in an aggressive cichlid community, my experiments in keeping him with various types started, both old world and new. The experimenting went off and on the first 10 years of it's life, with no success. :-?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

oehtam said:


> Fogelhund said:
> 
> 
> > ..... *if you increase the scale of your aquarium, you could keep many RD's and Oscars together, as people do mbuna*.
> ...


Again, it is due to differences in behaviour, that makes fish more suitable to such situations or not. Large American cichlids lead more solitary lives, just like Bass, and have few natural predators as adults. They are comfortable fish in the wild, and in captivity being in the open.

Mbuna on the other hand use strength in numbers, and there will be thousands of mbuna living in a particular area. What you are confusing as solitary behaviour as described in texts, is that "some" mbuna species will have both male and females protecting their 3ft square area of rock against intruders, while non-solitary only the males do. That doesn't mean they are solitary, on the contrary there will usually be thousands of mbuna around, just that the others will be excluded from their little 3ft square (or cubed) territory. Mbuna find comfort in the numbers, and have a natural mechanism to dive behind the rocks to flee from predators. You can browse through many posts here, where juvenile mbuna, or when there are too few mbuna, where people never see the fish, because they hide in the rocks from fear.

You don't find hardly any instances where Central American big cichlids do the same.

Perhaps my statement about seeking approval to do it was offbase, and perhaps what I meant was that you are looking for opinion on something that you've got your mind made up to do anyway... at least that is what it sounds like.


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

Fogelhund said:


> Again, it is due to differences in behaviour, that makes fish more suitable to such situations or not. Large American cichlids lead more solitary lives, just like Bass, and have few natural predators as adults. They are comfortable fish in the wild, and in captivity being in the open.
> 
> Mbuna on the other hand use strength in numbers, and there will be thousands of mbuna living in a particular area. What you are confusing as solitary behaviour as described in texts, is that "some" mbuna species will have both male and females protecting their 3ft square area of rock against intruders, while non-solitary only the males do. That doesn't mean they are solitary, on the contrary there will usually be thousands of mbuna around, just that the others will be excluded from their little 3ft square (or cubed) territory. Mbuna find comfort in the numbers, and have a natural mechanism to dive behind the rocks to flee from predators. You can browse through many posts here, where juvenile mbuna, or when there are too few mbuna, where people never see the fish, because they hide in the rocks from fear.
> 
> ...


Actually, I haven't made up my mind. Since one of the sp' I was considering are mbunas, in particular Melanochromis, I thought I'd post it here. There are other sp' I've considered, like the Hemichromis family (in particular Elongatus, which behaves like a guapote).

Another option is Genyochromis Mento (a species I've kept before with tankmates) here's an mbuna that Ad Konings recommended to keep alone (p.112 "Malawi Cichlids in their Natural Habitat").

Do you have any objections of keeping G. Mento (a true mbuna, behaves much like your description above) alone?



Fogelhund said:


> You can browse through many posts here, where juvenile mbuna, or when there are too few mbuna, where people never see the fish, because they hide in the rocks from fear.
> 
> You don't find hardly any instances where Central American big cichlids do the same.


Actually CA cichlids will act the same way when alone, hence "dither fish". You can find lots of post in CA forums of ppl recommending dithers to bring out their fish.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

You won't find any G. mento in the hobby, so it's a rather mute point.


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

Fogelhund said:


> You won't find any G. mento in the hobby, so it's a rather mute point.


Cichlidenstadl (Germany), Aquaglaser (Germany), Malawi Carsten (Denmark) all will ship to USA. As I haven't checked in a while and not sure if they still ship to US, I do know ppl in Germany that import directly from Tanzania, and can ship them to the US.


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

forgot to add.... I'm married to a German.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

I did not consider the options of shipping a mento from Europe, but then the mento doesn't appear on the first and last's price lists anyway.

Anyway, it's behaviour is no different than other mbuna, and is no more suited.

I've rarely seen such issues in adult CA's (at least the tank buster, big boys), but certainly with juveniles and the smaller specimens.


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

Fogelhund said:


> Anyway, it's behaviour is no different than other mbuna, and is no more suited.


Even if Ad Konings recommended to keep it alone? Speaking from experience, keeping the Mento in an mbuna community tank is not for the faint of heart.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

You have experience in keeping G. mento in a mbuna community?


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

Fogelhund said:


> You have experience in keeping G. mento in a mbuna community?


Yes, years back I adopted one. I put it in my 75g with my other mbunas, but that was only temporary. How temporary?....less than 10 mins, because it started "grazing" on the other fish, then I took it out put it a 10g quarantine tank for a few weeks 'till i got a 30g long set-up. He stayed there with a school of bucktooth tetras and giant danios for the remainder of it's life.

Funny thing about the mento I had, it was tiny. Books says they grow up to 6in (15cm) mine never passed 4in.


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

Also I remember watching it feed and how quick it was. After an attack on another mbuna from one end of the tank, it will dart towards the opposite end of the tank really fast, and the victim has no idea what hit them.

When it was alone with the bucktooth tetras and danios in hunted differently, It stayed at the bottom and darted up and back down. It was very interesting to watch.

A few years ago, when I still had it, I asked Pam on chat about breeding them, unfortunately she has no experience in keeping G. mento.


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## eoconnor (Nov 24, 2006)

It's not cruel, but you also won't see natural behaviour, or anything close to it. Personally I'd keep a pair of rams in soft water and grow some soft water plants but as you said, this site is for advice, not permission, so do what you want and let us know how the lil' guy gets on.


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

eoconnor said:


> It's not cruel, but you also won't see natural behaviour, or anything close to it. Personally I'd keep a pair of rams in soft water and grow some soft water plants but as you said, this site is for advice, not permission, so do what you want and let us know how the lil' guy gets on.


Thanks for the feedback  .

Yes, it isn't cruel. Keeping a single mbuna in it's own tank is no more unnatural (or cruel) than crowding them in a tank and forcing them to fight day-in and day-out (and be amused) for what little space thats available (when it's a proven fact that stress, such as combat, has a negative effect on an animal's immune system and subsequently their lifespan).

Bottom line is, none of our "set ups" are natural. No single human being can replicate an ecosystem as diverse as Lake Malawi. When it comes right down to it, a fish tank is just another "cage".


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## Melanochromis (Mar 30, 2005)

Sorry but Like Fogelhund I'm sticking to my guns on this one, as I don't believe keeping a lone Melanochromis is a good idea, and I speak from experience. As I said in my earlier post the male Chipokae I kept was in a 25 gallon tank, dimensions 80cm x 30cm was the footprint for the aquarium. When I bought him he was just over four inches. Granted he had plenty of swimming room, hiding places, correct substrate and food. Was he happy though?

Simple answer, no. As I said he spent most of the day hiding behind rocks or digging and pushing sand around like a manic little bulldozer. It became clear to me he was lonely and frustrated which was reflective in his behaviour. I decided to take him back to the LFS so he would find a more suitable home, as he was a beautiful fish.

Although this was a few years ago and I was still learning about mbuna, I consider that keeping him alone in this tank was a big mistake and that returning him to the shop was the best decision for his welfare which is the most important thing. Anyway that's my view.


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

Melanochromis said:


> ...he spent most of the day hiding behind rocks or *digging and pushing sand around like a manic little bulldozer*.


Those are the exact same behaviors single RDs and Oscars show, minus the hiding (but then again, RDs and Oscars are rarely provided a rock big enough to hide behind, and if they do hide, ppl use dithers).

Anyhow, thanks for your feedback. It's great to hear from someone with first hand experience  .


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

I realize that this whole topic is rather subjective... behaviors observed and noted can differ from owner to owner and fish to fish... but... I wonder if your "wet pet" experience was uncommon.



oehtam said:


> Those are the exact same behaviors single RDs and Oscars show,


The whole reason why folks refer to the CA and SA single cichlids as wet pets is because they tend to crave the attention of their owners (because they are alone) and do just about anything to get your attention. I've even heard of a red devil that learned to splash it's owner as she walked past the tank.

Oscars can be a bit of a trickier "wet pet" as I had mine learn to "sulk" if people weren't around and that makes them a rather un-enjoyable 'pet'. Oscars are considered a success as a wet pet when they continue to crave their human owners attention.

My 2 cents! :thumb:


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

Number6 said:


> I realize that this whole topic is rather subjective... behaviors observed and noted can differ from owner to owner and fish to fish... but... I wonder if your "wet pet" experience was uncommon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback  .

I've kept an Oscar and a Midas in the past, and have seen many from other owners. From what I've seen and experienced, the behaviors that they exhibited "because they are alone" or because they are "personable/intelligent" stems from wanting to be fed. These are animals that spend a majority of their time in the wild foraging for food. When one is conditioned to associate it's owner (or ppl in general) as the food source, it becomes active when that food source is present.

Now, you mentioned yourself that the mbuna you kept alone just beg for food and another member posted that it just kept moving gravel around and digging. These are basically the behaviors single RDs and Oscars exhibits and yet they are considered more appropriate to keep alone.

I do not understand the argument why it is inappropriate to keep a single mbuna. Perhaps if people are more open to this idea, it will give unsuspecting people new to the hobby an alternative and spare countless of Oscars and RDs from suffering in small tanks.


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## dillon0990 (Jun 11, 2011)

I might be jumping in late on this discussion but i dont know how you dont understand this argument. People keep fish like oscars alone because thats how they are in the wild. People keep lots of mbuna together because thats how they are in the wild. Do you understand now? a little kid should understand that concept.

Your statement about how its unnatural to crowd our tanks and forcing them to fight day in and day out really bugs me. I have a mbuna setup and i do not force my fish to fight nor do i crowd them and give them little space. If my fish were fighting the trouble one would go. Is a fish tank as good as the wild? no of course not but we try.

You can say all you want how it isnt cruel to keep a single mbuna alone to make your self feel better about your decision. You say any way we keep our fish its unnatural, which may be true, BUT at least we try to recreate what we think the wild would be like and we dont throw one fish in a tank just to be alone all day when in the wild it would be social.

It just amazes me how you come on here asking for advice and just because you don't hear what you are gonna do is right you tell us were keeping our fish in cages and being amused as they fight? I take care of my fish as i would any other pet. I do water changes three times a week and i study constantly about how my fish would be in the wild and i work hard to make them happy. If your not gonna keep a fish properly dont keep them at all.


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

dillon0990 said:


> People keep fish like oscars alone because thats how they are in the wild.


Oscars are not "alone" in the wild, they are social, they interact socially (hence their ability to change color rapidly as a form of communication), and form pairs.



dillon0990 said:


> Your statement about how its unnatural to crowd our tanks and forcing them to fight day in and day out really bugs me. I have a mbuna setup and i do not force my fish to fight nor do i crowd them and give them little space. If my fish were fighting the trouble one would go.


I want to apologize if I offended you. I have nothing against ppl overstocking tanks, I've done it myself. It was an analogy and I'm just stating facts. None of us are capable of replicating their ecosystem or even come close. Combat is something an mbuna doesnt't search out to do, but quite the opposite, thats why they've developed forms of communication to avoid it, they engage in one to increase their chances to procreate and for survival (ie. defending their feeding territory). They are basically fighting for their lives. In home aquaria, chances of combat increases exponentially to a degree that never happens in the wild.



dillon0990 said:


> It just amazes me how you come on here asking for advice and just because you don't hear what you are gonna do is right you tell us were keeping our fish in cages...


When you look at the grand scheme of things, we are just basically manipulating these animals to amuse us. I'm sorry if that disturbs you but that's a fact.

Again, I'm not asking for any advice if it's right or wrong, only feedback for those who have first hand experience.


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

I want to apologize to everyone who may have been offended by my statements, believe me that was not my intention.

Also I want to thank _*Fogelhund *_and _*24Tropheus*_ for their useful insight and their suggestion on a riverine type cichlid, your recommendations are duly noted :thumb: .


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## dillon0990 (Jun 11, 2011)

Maybe i shouldnt of taken it so persona, im sorry if i was a little over the top.

I believe there are those people who manipulate and use fish as amusement. I have met many people who have fish and they call them decoration. They use them to make their home look good.

If your talking about people who love fish and really care for them and look at them as pets and not decoration i dont think they are manipulating them at all. I dont have fish to amuse me, i have them because i care about them just as much as any of my cats or dogs. Is keeping cats and dogs in my house also keeping them in a cage? It isnt really natural for them, so am i just manipulating them for amusement?


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

*dillon0990*, I did not intend to insult anyone here, if someone got insulted I apologize.

I appreciate both your response to this thread, positve or negative  .

I know it may be hard for some aquarist to fathom the idea or the allure of keeping a single fish. The question of "why" should not be limited to just ppl who keep a single fish, but should be extended to ppl who keep a single hamster, a single rabbit, a single tarantula, a single lizard, a single parrot...etc.

I love this hobby and I've been keeping fish for the past 18 yrs and bred quite a number of different species, including rare ones not normally found in the hobby.

Right now, I have an African riverine set-up with various leaf-fishes (Ctenopomas) and tetras, and my 17 y/o paradisefish alone in a planted 20g. This paradisefish has been in various communities throughout it's life and responds very much like a CA cichlid. I don't think it's "cruel" to keep him alone in his tank.

We got into this hobby because we enjoy keeping fish, we are fascinated and amused with their behavior (ie. parenting, mating rituals, territorial posture/defense...etc). That is basically what this hobby is all about.


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

oops...forgot to answer your question about us "manipulating these animals" .



dillon0990 said:


> .. I dont have fish to amuse me, i have them because i care about them just as much as any of my cats or dogs. Is keeping cats and dogs in my house also keeping them in a cage? It isnt really natural for them, so am i just manipulating them for amusement?


First, I want you to take off the negative connotation you may have with the word "manipulating". The word in and of itself is not negative. Try to answer these following questions:

-Who decides what kind of substrate they're gonna have?
-Who decides what kind of decorations/items will go in their tank?
-Who decides what type of fish (and how many) they'll share the tank with?
-Who decides if the fish will be provided a mate(s)?
-Who decides what type/brand of food to feed them?
-Who decides when and how often they should eat?
-Who decides when they should have a change of water?

The unequivocal answer is you. You're basically "manipulating" their habitat and the inhabitants to suit your taste and there is nothing wrong with that. That's what we are all basically doing, and it's an integral part of the hobby.


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## dillon0990 (Jun 11, 2011)

Alright i guess i understand what your saying. The wording of how you were saying it made me take it as you were saying all fish keepers are just keeping them because they amuse us yet we dont care for them and we force them to fight as if that is something we are amused to watch.


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## dillon0990 (Jun 11, 2011)

All the questions you ask i answer by research and not by my own taste. The substrate i use is because i know they like sand and thats natural. The rocks i use i use because it is how they would like it in the wild. If your one of the people who has pink gravel and huge castles or little treasure box that shoot out bubbles Then that is where i see the fish are not keep as they should be. when i get a fish, for example im working on setting up my 40 long for saulosi. Im lookign at what rock to use. I would like black lava rock or even some really nice drift wood. Wanna know why im not gonna use either? i did my research. I know saulosi are busy fish and like to eat off the rock and lava rock is rough and will cut them when their swimming by. and will hurt them when they eat, I dont use drift wood because its not natural in lake malawi. If your a fish keeper doing all you can and doing all the research to know what those particular species of fish like then i dont see where any manipulating is involved. the only thing i decide is what food, and how often to feed and clean the tank. i dont see how the choice of when to clean the tank is involved in this as long as your keeping the levels right for them. So really the 2 things they would choose in the wild which is what and when to eat i control,and that is even still done as accurately as i can.


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

Thanks, point taken  . But I'm sure you've gotta admit, there are aquarists that keep healthy aquariums and genuinely care for the well being of their fishes but select a substrate (or decoration) that would make you go  or :-? .

In my opinion, If the fish are healthy and happy and contributes to the owner not going "postal", it's all good :thumb: .


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## dillon0990 (Jun 11, 2011)

yes i definitely agree. There are probably more people who keep fish just for the simple fact of "it looks cool." I know people who keep fish in terrible tanks who dont clean for months at a time. For someone like me or like you who actually care for fish i think we can make fish just as happy in a tank as they would be in the wild. Its all about how much time you want to put into learning the fish before you get them. Im not really sure how a single mbuna would work in a tank alone but if it really does work out mayb ill try it sometime. I did have a single oscar for about 4 years and having a single fish tank is very fun because you get attached to them and they seem to get a personality much like a dog or cat when ur around.


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

dillon0990 said:


> Im not really sure how a single mbuna would work in a tank alone...


Me too, which is why I posted the question here. To get ppl's feedback. I don't know if you've read all the posts, but the one's that did try it described behaviors that mirrors a single Oscar or RD. I picked the Melanchromis family of mbunas as a point of discussion because a majority of them don't have feeding territories, are true omnivores and nomadic opportunistic feeders. Particularly the true predatory Melanochromis sp. (ie. Melanopterus, Kaskazini, Simulans), which are specialized in hunting baby mbunas and baby haps  .

Taking M. Auratus as an example, The success in keeping them in home aquaria seems to be few and far between, a majority of aquarist who have attempted almost always speak of "murderous rampages" from this fish. The rare ones that did succeed cited that they need to be in huge tanks (125g and up) or they only have a single specimen in an all-male tank. Many aquarists feel it's not worth devoting such effort or space for such a small fish.

Almost everyone's account of M. Auratus in the wild is completely the opposite. Ichthyologists who've observe them in the wild says they're not aggressive and ONLY holds a territory when females are present in the area, then leaves the that territory after mating, reverting back to its nomadic lifestyle (until encountering females from a different area).

(just my speculation) It seems when you confine M. Auratus with females and when the male become sexually mature it will claim a whole tank (75g and under) as it's territory and relentlessly defend it like in the wild. But since it's unable to leave the territory (the aquarium) to "move on" so to speak, Auratus' hyper-territorialty mode never gets to switch off, and it's "murderous rampages" never stops.

Which brings me back to the point of why I was favoring Melanochromis sp. (in particular the _type species_ Melanopterus, who are predatory) as possible candidate for a "wet pet". Especially for the beginners who have the "Oscar itch" and want a cool predatory fish but have a small tank. Like I said on my other post, if ppl (hardcore Malawi hobbyists  ) are more open to this idea, perhaps this will save countless of Oscars and RDs (and other tank busters) from suffering in small tanks.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Those who have kept mbuna as wet pets did NOT describe behavior that matches the wet pets. You simply dismissed our opinions on the behavioral differences. Big difference...

With that said, the idea of a solo auratus is interesting since this is a different sort of mbuna and I think I may try it for one of my desktop tanks. My desktop tank has java fern and bright turquoise gravel... :lol:


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

Number6 said:


> Those who have kept mbuna as wet pets did NOT describe behavior that matches the wet pets. You simply dismissed our opinions on the behavioral differences. Big difference...


I didn't dismiss anyones opinions  , I was just making a connection about the mbuna just begging for food, digging, and moving gravel. Which is basically what single Oscars and RDs do.

Aside from my experience in keeping Oscars and RDs, I've had ppl show me their Oscars or RDs moving gravel and they're like "awe, he's redecorating his tank" or "look, when I go near, he comes up to me and wags his tail" or when a person is near and the fish suddenly becomes active "look It's asking for attention". I'm usually like :-? and say "um, I think he just wants food" I'm sure I wouldn't say the same thing if I was the owner and have had the fish for a while and have an emotional connection to it  . Like I said in my earlier post, These are animals that spend most of their time in the wild foraging for food. When one is conditioned to associate it's owner (or ppl in general) as the food source, They become active when that food source is present.

I spoke to a friend yesterday who's also into the hobby and ask him about keeping an mbuna alone and he said:

"WHY THE F*** IS THAT CRUEL, IF SOMEONE THINKS IT'S WRONG THEY SHOULD F***ING TURN VEGANS, CAMPAIGN AGAINST ALL ANIMALS THAT ARE KEPT ALONE AS PETS, LEAVE THE F***ING HOBBY AND GET A F***ING PET ROCK" :lol:



Number6 said:


> With that said, the idea of a solo auratus is interesting since this is a different sort of mbuna and I think I may try it for one of my desktop tanks. My desktop tank has java fern and bright turquoise gravel... :lol:


Yes, M. Auratus is a different sort of beast! :thumb: I'm assuming you understand why I pick Auratus. Turquoise gravel? Ok, here's my customary response to that ---> :-? ................. :lol:


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## dillon0990 (Jun 11, 2011)

sounds like your friend needs to "LEAVE THE F***ING HOBBY AND GET A F***ING PET ROCK" Just go buy a betta or something.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*oehtam* I'm not saying that it's incorrect for you to think of your fish as you do... I'm just saying that you ARE being dismissive of many of the opinions in the replies in this thread where we are all of the opinion that mbuna and the "wet pets" show significant behavioral differences.

E.g. what would you say is the driving force behind a RD kept solo that used to swim behind it's rocks when I walked up to the tank. I'm the only one that fed it 99% of the time and prior to a 3 week vacation where I left it alone it used to be up front begging for food? (girlfriend only fed it every few days while on my trip). I would walk up to the tank, he'd hide... I'd pull out food, he'd peek and then re-hide. As soon as food was put in tank, he'd come out to eat but not until I closed the lid. Now my girlfriend... he'd be up front, begging.. she'd open lid and he'd be right at the surface asking for food. He'd take it immediately. She fed him once in a blue moon.

I'm not saying that cichlids have human like emotion, intelligence, nor even attitudes... but I am saying that they are NOT IMHO as stupid as you would have us all believe... My experiences match multiple published scientific studies... cichlids are capable of simple logic, great feats of memory, and more... you don't agree, that's fine... but stop writing off my experiences as simply my misinterpretation of fish behavior. 8)


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## dillon0990 (Jun 11, 2011)

:dancing:


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

dillon0990 said:


> sounds like your friend needs to "LEAVE THE F***ING HOBBY AND GET A F***ING PET ROCK" Just go buy a betta or something.


 :lol:

I understand his sentiments though, because it is hypocritical to condemn something like keeping a single fish (that came from a fish farm) as a pet, yet we (humans) farm and kill animals for food.

When you think about it, the "hamburger" we eat comes from an animal that is social (form herds) and care/suckle its young for a significant period of time and we kill thousands of them each day. Same goes for chickens and pigs. Many people who've seen the slaughtering process (ie. a machine dipping a chicken in boiling water and stripping off it's feather while the chicken is still alive) turn vegetarians. And don't get me started on how cows and pigs are treated.

Like I said on my other post, there are many ppl out there who keep a single animal as a pet like a hamster (who are also social, and care/suckle their young), and ppl accept that as a norm.

That's why it baffles me why some ppl here think it is SO inappropriate to keep a single mbuna, and completely dismissed the idea, instead of being more open.


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## dillon0990 (Jun 11, 2011)

All i have to say about the animals is..."Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything." Genesis 9:3

The way that some places kill the animals is wrong i agree but if the animals dont suffer then there is no reason not to eat them. Thats what their here for.

As for things like hamsters they are social but thats why people take them out of their cages and are social with them. A human playing with them can make them just as happy. Im sorry i cant climb into my fish tank and be social with my fish so i put fish in with them so they can socialize.

:fish: sad fish

:fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: Happy fish


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

Number6 said:


> *oehtam* I'm not saying that it's incorrect for you to think of your fish as you do... I'm just saying that you ARE being dismissive of many of the opinions in the replies in this thread where we are all of the opinion that mbuna and the "wet pets" show significant behavioral differences.


If I appeared dismissive on my responses, it was not my intention. I was just pointing out simple behavioral cues that are the same and not all the variables.



Number6 said:


> but I am saying that they are NOT IMHO as stupid as you would have us all believe...


This stems from my response above. Pointing out just the similar basic behavioral cues and not explaining the inherent differences (which I should've) in these fishes might have come off negatively. Again, that was not my intention.

All the statements that I've made regarding these fishes was basically me just presenting an argument that whatever differences mbunas have from other cichlids is not enough (or even relevant) to deem keeping a single mbuna as inappropriate.

Just to clarify things, I'm not saying that you were the one against it, you were actually one of the first to encourage me to try it.


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

dillon0990 said:


> Im sorry i cant climb into my fish tank and be social with my fish so i put fish in with them so they can socialize.


I feel the same way,......hmm....I take that back, I don't think I would want to swim with M. Auratus.


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## eeztropheus (Jan 10, 2010)

How much longer are you going to beat this dead horse?! Just do it, and post your observations...


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

:lol: Amen!


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## ezrk (Aug 22, 2010)

oehtam said:


> That's why it baffles me why some ppl here think it is SO inappropriate to keep a single mbuna, and completely dismissed the idea, instead of being more open.


FWIW, we were forced to do this for a few weeks to sort out an aggression problem until we could re-home a bully.

The fish living alone was, best as I can tell, scared almost all the time and seemed much less happy than the fish living in communities.


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## dillon0990 (Jun 11, 2011)

:lol: AMEN !


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## dillon0990 (Jun 11, 2011)

Alright so even though im not happy with some things you have said. Many were somewhat insulting. I must say as far as keeping a mbuna alone i guess there would be no problem with it. I talked to someone who is probably the smartest fish person i know and they say that there is nothing wrong with it because they actually do like being alone and it gives no territory to contest.


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## Melanochromis (Mar 30, 2005)

Okay it's been a few days since I chimed in on this thread and I just read this article on PFK and obviously it seems appropriate given that the title is - 6 Best Cichlids as *WET PETS* -

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/c ... p?sid=4251


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

Here's a video clip I found of an mbuna "wet pet". 







Melanochromis said:


> Okay it's been a few days since I chimed in on this thread and I just read this article on PFK and obviously it seems appropriate given that the title is - 6 Best Cichlids as *WET PETS* -


Great share! All of the author's picks are carnivores or partially carnivorous. The ancestral feeding behavior of dogs and cats. A feeding niche occupied by some Melanochromis sp.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Nothing really "ideal" about keeping a cichlid as a lone specimen; nothing ideal about solitary confinement.....unless your intention is to use the fish for show. None of these large cichlids that are often kept as "wet pets" are any less social then an mbuna. They are kept as "wet pets" because it can be difficult and sometimes impractical to keep them in smaller space with tankmates. But actually an auratus, due to it's aggression, is sort of similar in this respect.

I've had lot's of sucess in the past, keeping a lone specimen of auratus in a CA community tank, but my recent attempts to keep a group in a 125 gal. proved to be a complete and utter failure. Very high conspecific aggression. Maybe my numbers were not high enough.....I had 15 fry but just never got there. All 4 mature auratus had territories and often fought.......the male killed what I beleive to be the sub-dom male and the much larger female, as well as killing the 2 largest of the batch of fry (which had grown to good size). The rest of the batch had been eaten by other tankmates as i took some chances knowing that most will be used as feeders, anyways.Then the smaller adult female, all of sudden was larger then the male...... and the male auratus got killed, though i couldn't say for sure that she did it. that leaves me now with one female auratus. Strangely enough, both of these adult females have generally had almost full male coloarion most of the time.

An auratus as a "wet pet", I think is a good idea.....definately no worse then keeping any other cichlid as a lone specimen. And better chance of an mbuna feeling comfortable and not being scared......lot's of CA/SA cichlids will stay scared 24/7 as a lone specimen, especially when young, and that is a very unhealthy situation.


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

bernie comeau said:


> Nothing really "ideal" about keeping a cichlid as a lone specimen; nothing ideal about solitary confinement.....unless your intention is to use the fish for show. None of these large cichlids that are often kept as "wet pets" are any less social then an mbuna. They are kept as "wet pets" because it can be difficult and sometimes impractical to keep them in smaller space with tankmates. But actually an auratus, due to it's aggression, is sort of similar in this respect.


I concur, I also don't see the large CA/SA cichlids any less social than the mbunas.



bernie comeau said:


> I've had lot's of sucess in the past, keeping a lone specimen of auratus in a CA community tank, but my recent attempts to keep a group in a 125 gal. proved to be a complete and utter failure. Very high conspecific aggression. Maybe my numbers were not high enough.....I had 15 fry but just never got there. All 4 mature auratus had territories and often fought.......the male killed what I beleive to be the sub-dom male and the much larger female, as well as killing the 2 largest of the batch of fry (which had grown to good size). The rest of the batch had been eaten by other tankmates as i took some chances knowing that most will be used as feeders, anyways.Then the smaller adult female, all of sudden was larger then the male...... and the male auratus got killed, though i couldn't say for sure that she did it. that leaves me now with one female auratus. Strangely enough, both of these adult females have generally had almost full male coloarion most of the time.
> 
> An auratus as a "wet pet", I think is a good idea.....definately no worse then keeping any other cichlid as a lone specimen. And better chance of an mbuna feeling comfortable and not being scared......lot's of CA/SA cichlids will stay scared 24/7 as a lone specimen, especially when young, and that is a very unhealthy situation.


 =D> ....Finally!!!....Where were you all this time, I've been looking for an experienced objective supporter!


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

oehtam said:


> Finally!!!....Where were you all this time, I've been looking for an experienced objective supporter!


the above quote made me throw up... just a little... in my mouth. :lol:


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

Number6 said:


> oehtam said:
> 
> 
> > Finally!!!....Where were you all this time, I've been looking for an experienced objective supporter!
> ...


 :lol: I know, I got a little carried away with that comment. But man!... that felt like a breath of fresh air. I've been monitoring this thread waiting for a constructive feedback on the subject, instead almost all the response have been adverse criticism and about ethics.

I started this thread to hear from people who have an mbuna pet, instead I was condemned for even thinking about it and I didn't even ask if it was right or wrong nor did I seek approval.


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## heyzeusbrains (Jul 12, 2011)

So, do you guys think a lone auratus would color up male? Or does it require other fish to dominate?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Some of what came across to me was wet pets, regardless of species, are likely to be scared 24/7, an unhealthy situation. Which makes sense to me since I could never imagine how an oscar could be "happy" alone in a tank either. You call that support? :lol:


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

DJRansome said:


> Some of what came across to me was wet pets, regardless of species, are likely to be scared 24/7, an unhealthy situation. Which makes sense to me since I could never imagine how an oscar could be "happy" alone in a tank either. You call that support? :lol:


 :lol: I think that statement is beyond category!


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## oehtam (Nov 30, 2006)

heyzeusbrains said:


> So, do you guys think a lone auratus would color up male? Or does it require other fish to dominate?


This, I want to know too. I've seen plenty of lone male auratus in my LFS throughout the years fully colored and they all seem like they've seen some "action".


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## Melanochromis (Mar 30, 2005)

heyzeusbrains said:


> So, do you guys think a lone auratus would color up male? Or does it require other fish to dominate?


I went into an LFS the other week and one of his stock tanks had a single lone male Auratus, he was about 4.5 inches and he had very little colour at all, I didn't know he was even there at first as he'd dug a big pile of gravel to hide behind, no rocks there as a hiding spot so he can chill out.


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## eoconnor (Nov 24, 2006)

Also lets not get too sensitive here....we are talking about fish. I'm guessing most people on this site would eat fish, especially some delicious Ahi or Mahi Mahi. I'm not suggesting that anyone take an animals health lightly, but let's keep some perspective.


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