# 33 gallon help



## cichlidnewb23 (Dec 18, 2010)

Well i got a 33 gallon from a family member. Came with two hob filters bot rated for a 30 gallon.
I was looking to do a community or get an idea of a community tank. Rams are cool and so are the appistos but none of my local fish store carry appistos. I will have sand substrate and fake plants with riverstone caves. Tank has been cycling for about 4 days now. So, What would you stock this tank with?
any help is appreciated


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

Cichlid wise the only things I'd put in a 33 are SA dwarves. A 33 os a 30" tank i believe, so two pairs of rams will probably be ok. If none of your LFS's carry apistos, see if they'll order some in for you, otherwise try ordering online; in a 30" tank you could do 1m 2f. From there i would get a nice school of tetras and something to eat algae (BNP, otos, nerite snails), and that would be it. Why fake plants? There are plenty of cheap, easy plants out there for beginners. Cryptocoryne, Vallisneria, java fern, anubias, water sprite, water wisteria, elodea, just to name a few. None of them require CO2, or a lot of ferts, and will do well in medium lighting. They also grow like crazy or send out runners, so it doesn't cost a lot to fully plant the tank.


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## cichlidnewb23 (Dec 18, 2010)

Hmm i may do rams not sure yet. What would be the lighitng needed for those plants you mentioned? i think ill get some plants going and save money for either rams or apistos. ill decide when the tank is nice and planted


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

A regular old T8 or T5 fluorescent should be enough. The standard ones that come with the starter kits should be fine for those plants; they don't need that much lighting. It shouldnt be too bright though; cryptocoryne, java fern, and anubias do best in low to med lighting, and water wisteria, vallisneria, etc do best in med to med-high lighting.


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## cichlidnewb23 (Dec 18, 2010)

Okay, i think ill start out with some low light plants at first. Then increase later. Are there any good floating plants that can thrive in low light? Also how many corries should i get and what are red serpae tetras okay?


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

Serpae tetras are fine; cories are iffy with dwarf cichlids, since cories are very opportunistic and will actively hunt down eggs/fry, if the parents are not careful. If you really want them, get a school of 6 or more, OF THE SAME SPECIES. I can't stress that point enough; cories are schooling fish by nature, and require a school of their own species to feel secure. Same goes for the tetras. Floating plant wise, Water sprite is a nice one; it's more of a medium/ low-medium light plant, but does very well in most tanks, spreads very quickly, and can be planted in the substrate or floated on the water surface.


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## cichlidnewb23 (Dec 18, 2010)

Hmm *** read they are are voracious litte guys if there are fry abundant, but if i get cories ill make sure to get atleast six. I may go with rams just because they are fairly cheap and close to my house. I did some searching online and just for a pair is expensive of the apistos. Ill look online at some planted tanks to get idea and check out some plants too.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

Apistos are dirt cheap over here  A 2.5 inch triple red cacatuoides only costs about 10 dollars


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## cichlidnewb23 (Dec 18, 2010)

yeah lol that is cheap. Bluegrassaquatics got pairs for 45 a peice and 10 bucks for single. And i fear the costs will be more if i order through a local fish store


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## MonteSS (Dec 8, 2008)

How are you cycling the tank, with fish or adding amonia. If you dont add bacteria from a cycled tank, it will take at least a couple weeks.

Blue Ram require a warm tank. 82* or so i believe. They also require ggod water parameters and cleanliness. Beautiful fish.

Apistos prefer cooler water as do most Cories.

....Bill


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

MonteSS said:


> How are you cycling the tank, with fish or adding amonia. If you dont add bacteria from a cycled tank, it will take at least a couple weeks.
> 
> Blue Ram require a warm tank. 82* or so i believe. They also require ggod water parameters and cleanliness. Beautiful fish.
> 
> ...


Wild rams need about 86F IME, but tank raised ones do fine in water that's 82+
Most apistos prefer around 80F, but certain ones, lik borelli, do well in the mid 80s. Same goes for cories: i keep sterbais in display tanks with blue rams/ discus, cuz they actually like the heat.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Seeing as borellii are one of the most southernly found apistos, from the Paraguay River basin and along the lower ParanÃƒÂ¡ River in Argentina, true subtropical climate range, I find it interesting that people think they like hotter temperatures.

Idealy I would keep borellii in temps ranging from 73f to 77f.

Apistos are found over a large area of neotropical and subtropical South America, so it's not good to pigeon hole wild and wild type apistos as liking/requiring certain water requirements and temperatures.

The same can be true for line bred variants as well. My line bred agassizii may be raised in very different water to those bred in Florida or those raised in Portland. The same can be said for any of the fry raised from my wild caught pairs.

And just because apistos are bred locally doesn't mean they are bred in local tap water. I breed my apistos in 70% rain water & 30% tap water, but grow out my fry in a 50%-50% mix. I don't know how well (nor do I care to experiment) they would live in my straight tap water.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

*cichlidnewb23* cycle the tank fully before looking to stock with any dwarf cichlids. Most dwarf cichlids are much more susceptible to new tank syndrome than larger cichlids. Basically they are delicate.

Have a look to see if there are any dwarf acaras in your LFS. I will always recommend to people new to SA dwarfs to start with dwarf acaras before moving on to Blue rams or apistos. Much easier to keep and generally not as picky when it comes to water requirements.

If you had a larger tank I'd suggest Bolivian rams as another good beginner dwarf, but they really are communal species, and as such are more fun when kept in atleast a small school.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

I was talking about blue rams, not apistos... And tbh, I've never kept A. borelli, and that bit was only from what I've heard.


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## cichlidnewb23 (Dec 18, 2010)

Im doing a fishless cycle. Its only been going about 6 days and i wasnt planning on adding any fish for at least a couple weeks, i also started with water from my established 75 thats been running for about 3 weeks(not including cycle time). I was just trying to get some ideas of what would be a good stock. I do water changes 2 times a week and usually have double or more filtration so i think i could manage some of the sturdier rams or apistos, but if you think it would be better to do some dwarf acaras then i dont mind that.


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## livingroomdiver (Oct 10, 2011)

Laetacara Dorsigera and Curviceps are great little fish and won't hassle tankmates too much. Their water parameters are less specific than Rams also. Rummynose Tetras are good looking fish that school very tightly and look awesome swimming around and through plants and decorations.

As far as plants, I'd stick to Anubias, Cryptocoryne and Java Fern. There's a lot of varieties of Anubias and Crypts that can give the tank a varied look.

If you're looking for variety that you can't find at your LFS, I've had great luck with plants from Liveaquaria and just got a couple of fish from Aquabid that are in excellent condition. The only problem is, I assume it's pretty cold in CO this time of year. Tough to ship plants and fish in those temps. Make sure they pack well and ship with heat packs.

Good luck!


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## TeteRouge (Feb 15, 2009)

cichlidnewb23 said:


> yeah lol that is cheap. Bluegrassaquatics got pairs for 45 a peice and 10 bucks for single. And i fear the costs will be more if i order through a local fish store


 IMHO you should your LFS a try, they may surprise you. If you order online, you may likely run into order minimums and high shipping costs-especially just for a pair. Your LFS may have a regular breeder/supplier that carries what you want. The shipping will cost next to nothing, since the LFS has other stock coming anyway. My LFS checked their supplier, found some very interesting things, put in an order for an Apisto pair to add to their regular order. I had them in 48 hrs. Granted $26 for a pair isnt cheap, but the shipping alone wouldve cost more than that if I'd ordered them myself.

PS I second the Rummynoses and Anubias :thumb:


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## cichlidnewb23 (Dec 18, 2010)

Okay, ill definately visit a couple lfs and see what they can do.


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## doxiegirl (Aug 24, 2009)

I have a 33 long that had a group of 6 Bolivian rams, 10 black neons, and a couple of otos. The dominant pair of rams bred often but the neons always got the babies. It was a good tank for rams because they stay near the bottom and the tank was so shallow. I have that group in a 60g with angels now and I'm using the 33 for a shallow reef tank.

I'd go with Bolivians and a slim tetra like neons or rummynose. I think a wide bodied tetra would not be happy with the depth of the tank if it's a 33l. Bolivians are easy and it's fun to watch their little dramas!


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

I moved away from planted plants (crypts, amazon swords, etc) because I like doing thorough tank vacs of my dwarf tanks once a month or every two months (once a week with my growouts), or changing things around pretty easy. Having rooted plants, limits these options or means tearing up a whole tank, and I hate crypt melt.

I do have a couple of amazon swords, but they are planted in shallow plastic bowls (I cut off the bottom of large soda bottles to use as pots). Otherwise I like to tie anubis, java fern and java moss to wood. I like using mopani rootwood to tie anubis and java fern to, and I tie java fern to small branchy pieces.

If I get time later this week, I'll take some photos of some of my creations and put up a new thread, so people can get an idea. They are nothing special, but it's easy to make decent tank decorations without having to over pay to buy them from a LFS.


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## cichlidnewb23 (Dec 18, 2010)

@ deadfishfloating, i would definately like to see some photos. My lfs has some kribs and some blue rams. I was thinking of picking one or the other up. Are kribs SA or? and if i choose to get them what are good tank mates?


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

Kribs are African cichlids. Thry can get nerotic when they spawn, so try to find fidh that wont prey on the fry/eggs. Of course you could keep just one, but IMO that defeats the purpose of keeping dwarves; they're so much more fun to watch when there are at least a pair :lol:


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## cichlidnewb23 (Dec 18, 2010)

Are there any angel fish that could live in there long term as apposed to dwarf cichlids or rams?
maybe a pair of angels and some corries? What do you guys/gals think?


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## livingroomdiver (Oct 10, 2011)

If we're talking about a 33 long, there isn't a lot of height in there for Angels. It would probably work if the decorations didn't take up too much space, so they have lots of room to spread their fins.

If you passed on large wood and rocks and went with smartly spaced anubias hastifolia and swords, I think they'd be very happy in there with some cories and a large school of tetras. :drooling: I'm making myself drool just thinking about it! :lol:


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## cichlidnewb23 (Dec 18, 2010)

Yeah i would maybe have a few small riverstones laying on the bottom and around the base of plants. I still havent decided lol christmas is coming up some ill definately be asking for fish stuff since i need money for gifts lol. So if i do choose the angels, what species would work best?


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## livingroomdiver (Oct 10, 2011)

I think that most of what you'll find are P. Scalare or Altum. Scalare are the more common of the two, and are available in tons of color variations. Altum tend to grow larger, so it would be more likely to get pinched in the shorter tank.

Some flat stone around the bottom of the tank would be perfect, just avoid stuff that limits swimming space. Except for taller plants, especially those with large leaves. Angels love 'standing' around amongst them, and will lay eggs on them if things go really well.


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## cichlidnewb23 (Dec 18, 2010)

If i went with the angels, what would be the best tetra speices? or would just some plain silver hatchetfish work?


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## livingroomdiver (Oct 10, 2011)

Anything but the smallest tetras should be okay. Neons might end up as snacks. Also stay away from Tiger Barbs and other fin nippers. Angels are slow movers, and bloodfin tetras and giant danios are probably too busy for them. Buenos Aires Tetras tend to nibble plants, so they might be a problem if you want to plant the tank.

Whatever you get, read up on them and make sure that they won't pose any of these problems. That leaves you with a lot of options. Like I said before, Rummynose are one of my favs.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

+1 on the rummy nose; bleeding hearts, lemons, colombians, and black phantoms also work.


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## cichlidnewb23 (Dec 18, 2010)

would of any of the angels off liveaquaria be okay? The silver zebra and smokey leopard veil are pretty wicked looking and not to expensive. I would buy 6 and try to get a pair and sell the rest. Thanks again!


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## livingroomdiver (Oct 10, 2011)

I believe they're all just color variants of the same species. Sounds like your plan is starting to come together! :thumb:


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## cichlidnewb23 (Dec 18, 2010)

Oh okay lol sounds good then. So ill probably get 6 angels and try to get a pair then add some corries, either panda or emerald. Then finish off with tetras last. What would be a good number or tetras? Also will i need ferts or Co2 for any of the beginner plants?


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

How big are the angels? 6 may be pushing the footprint a bit too much... I'd suggest getting 4 instead; with 4 you still have ~90% chance of getting a pair, and there won't be nearly as much aggression. For tetras, a dozen or so of ONE species should be ok with a pair of angels and 6 cories; you could also ditch the cories and get some dwarf cichlids.


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## livingroomdiver (Oct 10, 2011)

I have a collection of Anubias, Cryprocoryne and Java fern that gets along well with Excel Flourish (carbon supplement) and Excel Iron. One capful added 2-3 times per week along with about 2 watts of t5ho lighting per gallon, and they're all happy and growing like crazy. Eco-complete substrate also comes with a lot of beneficial bacteria and minerals to help you get started.


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## cichlidnewb23 (Dec 18, 2010)

BelieveInBlue said:


> How big are the angels? 6 may be pushing the footprint a bit too much... I'd suggest getting 4 instead; with 4 you still have ~90% chance of getting a pair, and there won't be nearly as much aggression. For tetras, a dozen or so of ONE species should be ok with a pair of angels and 6 cories; you could also ditch the cories and get some dwarf cichlids.


The website says the purchase size will be 3/4''-1 1/4''. I was kinda thinking the same on it being crowded with 6 so i may just go with 4 and save 20$ on the order.


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## cichlidnewb23 (Dec 18, 2010)

livingroomdiver said:


> I have a collection of Anubias, Cryprocoryne and Java fern that gets along well with Excel Flourish (carbon supplement) and Excel Iron. One capful added 2-3 times per week along with about 2 watts of t5ho lighting per gallon, and they're all happy and growing like crazy. Eco-complete substrate also comes with a lot of beneficial bacteria and minerals to help you get started.


Okay sounds good. So i should need about 60-65 watts of lighting? And could i plant the plants in bottoms of soda bottles with the eco complete substrate or should i just use that to replace the sand i have now? Im just trying to make a list now so i have an idea of how much its all gonna cost so sorry for alll the questions lol I appreciate the help


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## livingroomdiver (Oct 10, 2011)

The anubias and java ferns can (should) be tied to decorations, and given time will take root to them. I'm waiting out that process right now. I wouldn't worry about the eco complete if you already have sand in place. You just might want to use some supplement tabs from time to time to keep the roots fed. The Excel products run $10-12 for a decent sized container. As for the lighting, I'd look here http://ahsupply.com/ for lighting if you're thinking of a custom hood. Otherwise, there's a million different consumer setups out there. For those plants, and considering the relative shallowness of that tank, a single 54w t5 might do the trick.


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## cichlidnewb23 (Dec 18, 2010)

Okay sounds good, Thanks. *** seen tanks with the root like branches coming from the top, could i maybe do that in my tank or would it take up to much of the angels swimming room?


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

You mean like mangrove roots? That's more of a brackish biotope I think... Angels are the shape they are so they can easily dart between rocks, driftwood, and plants, so mangrove roots should be ok, although it's not really what they have in the wild, not that your tank raised strains would care anyways


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## cichlidnewb23 (Dec 18, 2010)

No, not mangrove roots. Kinda like something on the left side of the tank in this video


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## cichlidnewb23 (Dec 18, 2010)

well i guess i should of measured it twice..the dimensions are 30x12x18 so it comes to about 30 gallons..is that gonna affect my stocking?


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## livingroomdiver (Oct 10, 2011)

You should still be able to to do the same things you were thinking of. Maybe keep it to 4 young angels, and if you get your pair, pull the other two. I wouldn't want 4 adult angels in a tank that size, but a pair will still do very well I think.


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## cichlidnewb23 (Dec 18, 2010)

Okay, i was planning on starting with 4 anyways. Am i gonna need another tank for fry if i happen to get a pair? Depending if any lfs want to buy angels then im not sure if i want to raise the fry


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

"A breeding tank is not a display tank; a display tank is not a breeding tank" - TheFishGuy (I think).

Simply put, yes. If you want a good amount of fry to survive so that raising them would yield a profit, or at least allow you to break even, then you will need a separate tank. A 25H should be enough to accomodate a breeding pair of angels, and a 30g would make for a nice grow out tank.


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## cichlidnewb23 (Dec 18, 2010)

Well im just not sure if any lfs would want to buy angels. I could ask around but if they dont i rather not try for a pair of them and go for some dwarf cichlids or something


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

Angels occupy the top/middle of the tank, dwarves prefer the bottom, so even if you didn't have any angels, there still wouldn't be much room for more than 1 more ram. If you don't want fry, get a pair anyways. They'll spawn in the display tank, but no fry will survive; most fish will leave the eggs alone after a couple failed attempts, and spawning cichlids are always a treat, IMO.


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## cichlidnewb23 (Dec 18, 2010)

Well i would love to breed them and raise the fry but i dont know what i would do with them all lol im sure i could find a cheap 29 gallon and throw a spong filter and heater in there and raise the fry which would be awesome, just dont know what i would do with them all


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

I've no room for my angel fry anymore, so i just leave the parents in their display tanks and let the tetras/dwarf cichlids clean up any fry that hatch. In a community set up the parents may not feel secure enough to allow the eggs to hatch anyways.


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## cichlidnewb23 (Dec 18, 2010)

Alright, well i think that should work out then. Unless i can find a good deal on a pair of colorful appistos, but they seem more as a pair then 4 angelfish cost


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