# Fish room project



## prov356

Just about complete with the fish room project I've been working on for the past year or so. Thought I'd go ahead and document it, as there may be some things I learned along the way that would help others.

Here's where it stands now. Still needs carpet and a viewing chair, but otherwise complete.










Started out looking like this. All I had was an area full of clutter and a dream.










Anyway, here was the original plan drawing.










The idea was to have four identical systems of two tanks sharing a common sump. Water changes would be performed by simply switching some valves and using the sump pump to push water up and out to a drain. The sumps would then be refilled via a storage tank with it's own pump. So, water changes would be done by just turning valves and flipping switches. That was one requirement for me. Most of my maintenance consists of water changes and they needed to be easily performed.

Notice the valves on the drains. I originally intended to use what's known as the 'Herbie' method named after a poster on a reef forum. Sounded like a great idea at the time, but didn't work out for me in the end. More on that later. The idea behind this method is to regulate the drain via the valves to control the water height in the tank(s). There's an emergency drain in the middle in the event that one of the drains becomes blocked. You're basically maxing out your main drains by closing out the valves. I had used durso's in the past and wanted to try something different.

So now the basement finished, my area cleared, acrylic was in and I was set up ready to go.










I saved a lot of time by finding a supplier that did a great job cutting all of the pieces to size. Probably saved several weeks work.

I put together a working table with hold-downs to make working with the acrylic easier. It beat using C-clamps and worked really well.










I'm not going to go into a lot of detail on the acrylic work, but just a brief overview of what was involved.

Here are some pics of the assembly process.




























I came up with a really effective way of sealing all insides seams using slightly thickened solvent. Worked really well. Not a single leaker.










Tanks and sumps complete!

Next I did a mockup of the drain to measure how low I could go with the bottom shelf of the rack. I wanted it to fit without wasted space that would take from working room above the tanks.



















Some pics of the finished drip tray and biomedia chamber. The drawers slide out so that the filter media can be easily cleaned/changed. I had extra bioballs so decided to lay them on the water guide. Didn't know they floated.  Oh well, took them out again.










On this pic, you can see the 3/4" wide slats that are used to hold the blue filter pads down. It's about a 1/2" up from the bottom of the tray. This is done to avoid bypass of the filter media.










Next up, building the racks.


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## smellsfishy1

Tim, the finished product looks amazing and the sliding tray of media is genius.
It looks like you did some very high quality work.
I hope you really enjoy your new fish heaven.


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## JimA

Looks like a lot of time consuming very rewarding work. Also gotta throw in expensive acrylics not cheap.

What was/is your budget. You married? No way on earth would my wife let me spend that on fish tanks. :lol:

Great job!! :thumb:


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## prov356

> Looks like a lot of time consuming very rewarding work. Also gotta throw in expensive acrylics not cheap.


It was all of the above, time consuming, expensive, but very rewarding.



> What was/is your budget. You married? No way on earth would my wife let me spend that on fish tanks.


My wife's a sweetheart. She encouraged me to 'go for it'. She's not into it like I am, but accepts it. Just waiting for a good time to tell about phase II :lol: .



> Tim, the finished product looks amazing and the sliding tray of media is genius.
> It looks like you did some very high quality work.
> I hope you really enjoy your new fish heaven.


Thanks, and I am enjoying it.

The racks were put together next. The big challenge here was trying to build something flat and level out of 2x4's which can be anything but straight. Also had to deal with a floor that was sloped to the basement drain, as they usually are. I was skeptical as I got deep into it, but it came together ok. Most sections came out pretty level. Only one was off enough that you could see, but not by a lot.

Laying out the posts. You can see the shelves in the foreground. I doubled 2x4's.










Here's a pic of the shelves.










Finished the first and tested for fit.










Some pics of the completed racks.










This one shows how it's achored to the wall. Also anchored in the back corners along with being attached at the corners. They don't budge.










Some detail.



















Racks are painted and doing a fill test of tanks and sumps. This was a nervous time for me because I knew leaks would mean setbacks and a lot more work. But not a single leaker.










Time to paint the tanks.


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## My3rgo

Incredible work! Congratulations on a job well done. :thumb:


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## Strohs58

=D> Good job, wana come do mine?


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## prov356

Thanks, *My3rgo*

Trying to decide on a color for the tank backs was more work than it needed to be, but I wanted to be happy with it. No changing it once done, easily anyway.

I couldn't decide between blue and green, so went with both. Blue for the top rack and green for the bottom. Tank bottoms were painted a tan color.



















Finished and ready for plumbing.


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## KaiserSousay

Bravo..
Just..I`ve become speechless.
Bravo..


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## prov356

> Bravo..
> Just..I`ve become speechless.
> Bravo..


Thanks

Lining up the pump was a bit challenging. What I had in mind initially didn't work. The holes weren't in the right spot, so I ended up drilling another.










Here's what I ended up with.










Anything else pushed the intake too close into the corner for my liking. Last thing you want to do is restrict the intake.

After getting the pump in place, I plumbed the rest per my original plan. I only did one rack to test it all out, and was glad that I did because I ended up changing it. I had a lot of trouble balancing out the inflow and drains on two different tanks on the same system. I think the 'Herbie' method works best on one tank, not two. To make a long story short, I decided to go back to tried and true Durso drains. Here are some pics.

Simple bulkhead fitting with a strainer inserted for the main drains.










Here's the emergency drain. It's simply a bulkhead fitting with an elbow inserted. I actually stumbled on a good idea when working with this. The main drains with strainers could handle almost all of the flow, but not quite all. I found the water still rising. So, I cut down the elbow so it would allow the water to rise to the height required and then skim anything that tried to go above that level. It worked great as a surface skimmer. All tanks are set this way now. So, mains handle just about all of the water, with the 'emergency' drain acting as a skimmer. It gets to do something useful instead of sitting there just in case.










Here's a pic of the back of the tank showing the durso's.










For the returns, I made some custom spray bars. There are 3 lines of holes, so some goes to surface, some to main, and some down the side. I get really good circulation.



















A pic of the above tank plumbing. From the pump, it goes up to a center position above the tanks and then splits off to each side. The idea was to get an even flow to each side. It accomplished that, but I found it was all going to the bottom tank. Not enough pressure for the size of plumbing to push it out to the returns for the top tank. So I resolved that with valves.










You can see them here. Once set, they don't need to be changed.










Some pics of the drain and fill lines that run to the drain and storage tank.



















And here's where the drains come into the floor drain. Looks odd, I know, but works well. I've got the four drains, one from each of the four racks, then one coming from my tank upstairs. That's the one coming in from the side. I also needed allow the humidifier and dehumidifier and AC unit to drain at the floor. You can see the drains coming in. There's also room so any spillage on the floor can drain as well. I used a 4" pipe that reduced to a 3", then a 2" pipe. I drain two at a time and it handles the flow just fine. The whole thing is attached to the furnace duct. It's very stable.










Lastly, I had to get the storage tank in place and do the final hookups. That's next.


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## Cento

I wanna come sleep in your basement! :lol:

My wife's been after me to get a new home in the burbs.... I'll tell her if we do, this setup will be the proviso! HA! That'll shatter the house dreams!!! :lol:

The humidity must get really high; you worried about the insulation above, or do you have a dedicated dehumidifier setup for the basement?


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## prov356

> The humidity must get really high; you worried about the insulation above, or do you have a dedicated dehumidifier setup for the basement?


I keep an eye on it, but right now it's not a problem. I do have a dehumidifier down there, but doesn't kick on all that much. The systems are moderately sealed up. All openings have covers, plugs, etc. Not tightly sealed, but enough that it's not pushing massive amounts of humidity into the air.

I spent a lot of time trying to decide on size and capacity of the storage tank for water changes. End up with a 70 gallon low design. Decided it'd be easier if I had to get into it to mess with the pumps and heater. I also decided having the capacity to do all 4 racks same day wasn't necessary. I'd rather do two at a time and do it quickly. Here's what I came up with.










Here you can see the pumps. I've used a mag18 and a hydor circulation pump. I'm also using a 400w heater. No risk of cooking fish, so went with a large one.










Speaking of pumps and heaters, I used mag24's for the sumps. I also used 400w heaters for the sumps. Back when I first started using the basement for fish, I had trouble warming some growout tubs that were near the floor where it stayed cool. Based on that, I oversized. Well, I don't know what it is that does it, but it's staying about 76-77 degrees in the room. So, I unplugged the heaters. Don't even use them. My tanks stay at about 79-81 degrees all the time. We'll see if that holds when cold winters come. I've given advice on heater sizing, but flunked it myself.  Who'd have known the room would be so warm. Can't account for it, all heat vents are closed. All that water circulating in the room maybe? The pumps generating heat keeping the water warm?

Here's how everything's plugged in at the storage tank. Plug on the left is for the pump that pushes water to the sumps. Stays off most of the time, of course. Plugs on the right are for the heater and circulation pump. They stay on except when draining the tank.










Lastly, the copper fill line. I have nightmares about copper plumbing.  Mostly, I'm good at it and have no trouble until the last connection where you're dealing with water in the line. Took hours and a lot of prayer, but got it done. I tapped right into the 3/4" copper coming off of the main. I wanted it to fill quickly. It fills the 70 gallon tank in 4 minutes.










Last thing to show is how I regulate the fill to the sumps. I used a series of valves.










There are 3 valves to the right. The nearest is the one that goes to my upstairs tank. The other two each split off into two racks. So, only one of those three would be on when filling. There are four more to the left, one for each sump. I use those to control the flow back each, so I get an even fill. Hard to tell, but each is partially closed.

So, anyway, to do a water change:

Shut off pumps on two racks,
Allow to drain into sump,
Switch valves to divert water to floor drain,
Turn pumps back on until sump is drained,
Switch valves so pump pushes to tanks again when powered on,
Switch storage tank heater and circulation pump off,
Turn on pump to push water from storage tank to sumps until sumps fill,
Turn sump pumps back on,
Refill storage tank.

Total time is about 15 minutes. No hoses, buckets, etc.

Next it was time for rocks and sand.


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## prov356

Strohs58 said:


> =D> Good job, wana come do mine?


If I ever get all of mine done.  There's still phase II.

I was pushing hard to get sand and rocks done before it got cold. Rinsing sand is bad enough when it's warm. Found a great deal on 700# of Aragamax, so went with it. I've only used about half so far but anticipate needing more as they get older and start making sand pits, etc.










I hauled home about 1200# of rock from a local landscape supply. Then had to haul it down to the basement.

Here's a pic with rocks in. Used all but a few that I didn't like for one reaon or another.










Also had some tubes custom made by a guy online. I could only get them in a terra cotta color so used some rit dye to change them up a bit. Didn't come out as dark as I would have liked, but worth a try.










Next up, the lighting. Getting off early from work today for the holiday, so will pick this up later.

Have a good holiday everyone. :thumb:


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## DrgRcr

The time and planning you've put into this must be staggering. But the work is beautiful, especially the acrylic. I'm guessing the seams are welded in a way? Is it difficult to do? Looking forward to seeing the rest!


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## zdoda

absolutely amazing prov356, the effort you have put in is astounding top notch work dude well done =D> :thumb:

I love the idea of how easy it is to water change the tanks, with 8 tanks myself buckets are loosing its appeal weekly 

What species of cichlid's are you going to be keeping ? opcorn:


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## prov356

DrgRcr said:


> The time and planning you've put into this must be staggering. But the work is beautiful, especially the acrylic. I'm guessing the seams are welded in a way? Is it difficult to do? Looking forward to seeing the rest!


Thanks. Acrylic seams are solvent welded. It takes a little practice, but once you get the hang of it, it's not difficult at all. It's not hard to do professional looking work once you get the hang of it. I always find better ways to do better with every project. I did this with nothing more than a hand router and some other hand tools. Large flat router table would be ideal. Next project. 



zdoda said:


> absolutely amazing prov356, the effort you have put in is astounding top notch work dude well done
> 
> I love the idea of how easy it is to water change the tanks, with 8 tanks myself buckets are loosing its appeal weekly
> 
> What species of cichlid's are you going to be keeping ?


Thank you also. The water change thing was a necessary element. I'm not getting younger and I wanted this to be something I can continue to maintain for a long time.

I'm keeping all Tanganyikans. List of species and video will come later.


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## john73738

:drooling:

Nice work, Cant wait til the day I can do the same.

Bear


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## mg426

Man, You have got it BAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Great work !


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## prov356

mg426 said:


> Man, You have got it BAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Great work !


Thanks, no doubt :lol:



john73738 said:


> Nice work, Cant wait til the day I can do the same.


Thanks, Bear.

Ok, lighting.

I knew I wanted to go with LED's instead of fluorescent lights, and did a lot of research into making my own LED strips. I stumbled across LED rope lights at Lowe's. They're indoor/outdoor, so perfect for an environment around humidity. I built simple pine boxes and mounted them within.

Here's a pic with the screw eyes attached.










I then started winding the rope light around attaching it with plastic wire ties.










Full view, partially complete.










And all done. It's a 48' rope.










I attached them within the rack with some 3/4" steel pieces. This allows them to swing down or be moved up and out of the way. I initially was just going to mount them up and in, but decided to go with this plan so I could get the light down closer.



















And swung up out of the way.










Here's a pic with all lights in place. You can see the lights angled down and touching the front corner. The angle gives better light and the angle allows for any heat to rise up and out, although LED's don't run as hot as fluorescent lights do.










I'm hoping to post up a video or two this weekend of both fish and the change water process.

Forgot to mention that I also mounted a couple of under cabinet lights in the room. I've set them so they come on early in the day, then go off after tank lights come on around 4PM. They come on again just before lights out and stay on for a bit. There are no windows in the room, so this helps avoid going from pitch black to daylight.


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## Strohs58

How many total gallons?


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## prov356

Strohs58 said:


> How many total gallons?


There's about 160-170 gallons in each. So, something around 650.

Each tank is approx 72*16*16. Each hold about 70 gallons. I wanted the six foot lengths. The sump runs with about 35 gallons. Take away for rocks and I get about 165 or so.


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## cjacob316

<--- green


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## Toby_H

Tim, highly impressive... Very well thought out...

There's not much to say, it speaks for itself... :drooling:


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## JBGC

Unbelievable... that is one crazy setup mate. Your dedication is amazing. I just setup 1 tank with plumbing and i found it difficult! You have some serious patience! You have done a great job, looking forward to more updates with fish!


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## D-007

Wow! I am definitely impressed =D> Really like the lighting idea as well as the plumbing setup. Well done mate, well done indeed. :thumb:


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## prov356

Thanks all. Working on videos.


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## milkmaid

JimA said:


> L
> You married? No way on earth would my wife let me spend that on fish tanks. :lol:


And I, too, want to say to the OP..."You married? No way on earth my HUSBAND would let me spend that on fish tanks!"


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## prov356

Here's a video.

My Tanganyikan Fish Room


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## smellsfishy1

So, Tim, be honest with me, is this where you have been for the last couple of months?
Have you dedicated your life to this fishroom while you were away from the forum?


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## jrf

Very impressive. I'll look for you at the next Fishoholics Anonymous meeting. :thumb:


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## aandfsoccr04

that's incredible. wow. you got talent.


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## prov356

smellsfishy1 said:


> So, Tim, be honest with me, is this where you have been for the last couple of months?
> Have you dedicated your life to this fishroom while you were away from the forum?


It's kept me busy the last couple of months trying to get it done and fish in before the snow flies. As for the forum, I just needed a break from posting, I think. I've still been reading some posts, particularly in the tanganyikan section.



Toby_H said:


> Tim, highly impressive... Very well thought out...
> 
> There's not much to say, it speaks for itself...





JBGC said:


> Unbelievable... that is one crazy setup mate. Your dedication is amazing. I just setup 1 tank with plumbing and i found it difficult! You have some serious patience! You have done a great job, looking forward to more updates with fish!


I counted almost 400 plumbing connections when all was done. PVC is pretty easy, copper can give me fits.



D-007 said:


> Wow! I am definitely impressed Applause Really like the lighting idea as well as the plumbing setup. Well done mate, well done indeed.


I think part of it is the length of time it takes to complete. Allows for lots of time for ideas to come around.



aandfsoccr04 said:


> that's incredible. wow. you got talent.





jrf said:


> Very impressive. I'll look for you at the next Fishoholics Anonymous meeting.


Thanks all. I even amaze myself with this one when I sit and look at ll the work that went into it, and how it came together. There's always the fear in the back of your mind that something will cause a major setback or problem. But, I always repeat to myself when in the middle of something like this that "it's not how well your plan 'A' works, but how well you can come up with a plan 'B'". Sometimes the original idea doesn't work, but you end up coming up with something that works even better as a result, if that makes sense. The skimmer drain, for instance. I never would have planned that out. It just kind of happened.



milkmaid said:


> And I, too, want to say to the OP..."You married? No way on earth my HUSBAND would let me spend that on fish tanks!"


I think it's best having spouses that don't have the same addiction. Could you imagine if my wife was like me?  :lol:


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## rarefaction

My hat is off to you tim, and I may never put it back on... =D>


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## prov356

rarefaction said:
 

> My hat is off to you tim, and I may never put it back on... =D>


Thanks, rarefaction.


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## rich_t

All I can say is WOW!!!

Just out of curiousity, how much did it cost you to build that setup?


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## prov356

[b:182olrhk said:


> rich_t[/b]":182olrhk]Just out of curiousity, how much did it cost you to build that setup?


Thanks, rich_t. About $4K for the acrylic, $2K for the fish, and then another $4K for plumbing, lighting, and everything else. About $10K total give or take. Not the cheapest way to go, but that was never the objective. I saved where I could without compromising what I was striving for. By the comments posted, I think I achieved that. The mood in the room is exactly what I was going for. Not to mention the ability to instantly triple the number of tangs I was keeping.


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## rich_t

prov356 said:


> [b:mlvtexra said:
> 
> 
> 
> rich_t[/b]":mlvtexra]Just out of curiousity, how much did it cost you to build that setup?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, rich_t. About $4K for the acrylic, $2K for the fish, and then another $4K for plumbing, lighting, and everything else. About $10K total give or take. Not the cheapest way to go, but that was never the objective. I saved where I could without compromising what I was striving for. By the comments posted, I think I achieved that. The mood in the room is exactly what I was going for. Not to mention the ability to instantly triple the number of tangs I was keeping.
Click to expand...

It is a very impressive set up. Did you put up any sound dampening material on the inner walls of the room? I couldn't really tell from the pictures or video.


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## Cento

All the expenses are where I thought a project like that would be. But never in a million years would I have thought that such a large part of the expense would be fish! 

$2K of fish just sounds HUGE! But, I guess 200 (and Tanganyikans at that) fish adds up a big tab. And I'm sure you ordered F1 or WC....

Very stunning results though, so well worth the price...

Hey, just wondering, you practically have a store in your basement now! :lol: And I'm sure they're gonna breed sometime in the future (assuming you have females in there). Are you gonna start up a little operation down there, or are you hoping that cats and predators will polish off any fry?


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## prov356

[b:9ixl0c5c said:


> rich_t[/b]":9ixl0c5c]It is a very impressive set up. Did you put up any sound dampening material on the inner walls of the room? I couldn't really tell from the pictures or video.


Thanks, I haven't done anything yet, but will in the future. I'm right below my wife's craft room, and she hears the hum of the pumps all day. She's not a complainer though, so no big rush.



[b:9ixl0c5c said:


> Cento[/b]":9ixl0c5c]$2K of fish just sounds HUGE! But, I guess 200 (and Tanganyikans at that) fish adds up a big tab. And I'm sure you ordered F1 or WC....


I shoot for F1 juvies first, but have to sometimes take what I can get. Some of them are sub adult, about ready to breed. The only WC are the triglochromis. Hard to find F1's. Some of the fish are more expensive than others, so drove up the cost. But I wanted what I wanted and didn't want to build something like this just to settle for whatever I could find cheap. At the same time, I stayed away from some that ran for like $20+ per fish. I chose cheaper only if I'd be happy with them. Speaking of the trigs, I had a male flashing some colors at feeding time tonight that were phenomenal. They were the most expensive of the group. The cost of wild caught is one reason I shy away from them. But, after seeing these guys, I understand the appeal of instant, beautiful adult fish in the tank.



[b:9ixl0c5c said:


> Cento[/b]":9ixl0c5c]Hey, just wondering, you practically have a store in your basement now! Laugh Out Loud And I'm sure they're gonna breed sometime in the future (assuming you have females in there). Are you gonna start up a little operation down there, or are you hoping that cats and predators will polish off any fry?


I'll pick and choose on the raising of fry. Of course they'll breed as they will, but I'm not intending to try to raise everything. I'm keeping it a hobby. No cats in the tanks, not really into them. I need to get a predator tank, I guess. A tank with larger lamps or lepido's is on my 'some day' list still. Actually, I listed all of the tang species I'd still like to keep and came up with about 50 or so. There's another area of the basement that I can expand into, but not for a while. I'm going to enjoy what I have for now.


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## buddha2364

Just curious, but how thick of acrylic material did you use?

Simply amazing work. :thumb:


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## prov356

buddha2364 said:


> Just curious, but how thick of acrylic material did you use?
> 
> Simply amazing work. :thumb:


Thanks.

I used 3/8". Height of the tank, for the most part, determines the thickness needed, but for extra long tanks length can come into play.


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## Floridagirl

Prov356,

Truly beautiful. I love the water change idea. =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>


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## prov356

Floridagirl said:


> Prov356,
> 
> Truly beautiful. I love the water change idea. =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>


Thanks, might seem ridiculous overkill, but again, ease of maintenance is key for me to be able to continue this through the next decade and beyond. I didn't want to wish I had done it later. Or have to give it up because I couldn't keep up with maintenance.


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## [email protected]

very impressive and professional setup: beautiful example of a cool fish room!


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## prov356

[email protected] said:


> very impressive and professional setup: beautiful example of a cool fish room!


Thanks, I see you've done some really nice work yourself. :thumb:


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## Tshethar

Quick question for you: have you figured out a labor-saving technique for siphoning detritus off the sand or mulm from the bottom of your sumps? Or are you finding that your circulation is at least preventing the former from collecting much on the sand bed? I'm always surprised how quickly it collects in my large tank, and sometimes wish for more mechanical filtration in my drilled 120 with overflows and sump.


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## prov356

Tshethar said:


> Quick question for you: have you figured out a labor-saving technique for siphoning detritus off the sand or mulm from the bottom of your sumps? Or are you finding that your circulation is at least preventing the former from collecting much on the sand bed? I'm always surprised how quickly it collects in my large tank, and sometimes wish for more mechanical filtration in my drilled 120 with overflows and sump.


Seems to collect in one place, generally, due to the circulation. I just occasionally siphon it out. For the tanks, I've been using one of these. I modify it and put a longer tube on it, if needed, for deeper tanks. Take the gravel thing off, of course. Nice because you can use this anytime to do a quick cleaning, since there's no water change involved.

For the sumps, I haven't had any mulm buildup yet, but I'll just stir it up before I kick on the pump to drain, and it'll take out most of it. But, what little I have also seems to settle in one place, so that should be easy to siphon out. Laying a sponge or similar the width of the sump on the bottom could encourage it to settle there also. My filter media in the drip tray catches quite a bit.

I have a tank with sump on the first floor that I actually just drain off, so that one's easy to do.










You might consider putting a powerhead with a sponge on the intake in the sump. Then you'd just have to occasionally clean the sponge. Direct the outflow to get some surface ripple and it'd have the added benefit of oxygenating the water before it was returned to the tank.

If the sand gets really gunked up deep because of digging, I'll siphon out and rinse the sand. Not quick or easy, but I've only got one tank that requires that right now due to heavy stocking. I keep the sand bed down in that one. Does wonders for making the tank water crystal clear again. I only get into that about once every few months.


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## PauloSilva

Prov,

Out of curiosity, hows the fish room treating ya? Do you have any expansion plans? Are all of your fish breeding now. Has everything worked out as planned, or, have you modified anything. Have you been able to determine how many kwh's your running per month?

I stumbled back on this thread today and couldnt believe it was only 4 pages long. It certainly deserves more.


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## prov356

It's going well. Overall, it's gone according to plan as far as systems and maintenance. Let me
just rattle off some things off the top of my head.

I had a few bulkheads that needed to be tightened, but I guess that's to be expected.

I had to come up with a way to rinse/vacuum out the bottom of the sumps. Wishing I had left
myself more room to get a vacuum hose in there. I did come up with a plan that I'm refining
now. Many ways to do this, but it's gotta be easy and preferably something I can hook up and
let run.

I did replace all of the LED lighting with dual T8 shoplights. I naively just assumed LED is
energy efficient. I cut quite a bit off of my electric bill.

I should have used polycarbonate for the doors on the front where the drip trays slide in. Even
thin polycarbonate has never warped for me, but plain old acrylic, no matter how thick, will
warp like crazy. But, it's not a big problem.

So, I think these systems will run well for years. Hard to believe they've been running now 
for 15 months.

As far as the fish go:

My petrochromis kicked it into gear and are breeding like crazy. I've got 24 fry now. One
female spit 9. I may move my dominant male out as the subs seem to have better coloring.

I had one goby getting beat up, so moved her, now there's five still together, adult size and
doing fine, just not pairing up. They really aren't nasty to each other either. They're getting
some nice red coloring on them now.

My n. pulcher daffodils are breeding like crazy. At least 6 or so generations now. I've got one
male and three females sharing a 3 foot rock pile. The t. temporalis are doing fine on the
other half of the tank, but have stopped breeding. Funny how the tables turned in that tank. I
had divided it for a while to let the pulcher's get it going. I might pull the temporalis and let
the daffodils colonize the entire 6 feet. I'd like to give the temporalis their own 6 footer too,
cool fish.

My p. nigripinnis are breeding and fry are surviving and growing out. Started with about 15 and
they've doubled their numbers. My xeno sima illangi have given me one fry so far. It doesn't
matter, though, because I like xeno's for their looks.

My enants haven't spawned yet, but not for lack of trying by the males. I've just not seen any
interested females yet.

My p. brieni are holding now. Not sure if they have in the past, as it's hard to tell with them. If
so, then it's not one where fry are going to survive with adults like the nigripinnis.

My n. callipterus are driving me crazy. I have a male that seems to be attempting to fertilize
eggs, but I never see any fry. So, either the female isn't laying eggs or fry are getting eaten
or something. I find it hard to believe that all fry are eaten before I ever see any. Next time I
witness this, I may pull the shell after and see if anything comes of it.

My cyps are finally earning their keep. The males are getting larger and coloring up and
displaying quite a bit, so I'm finally seeing what others see in them. I was ready to move the
little brown sardines on to someone else. Glad I didn't.

My c. foai sibwesa turned out to not be foai. Not happy about that. Definitely furcifer and I
definitely wanted foai. Sloppy keepings from some of these 'breeders'. They're about 5" now
and I have two that have built spawning pits, but still no spawns that I'm aware of. They're 
only partially colored up, and still haven't seen any females showing interest.

My j. transcriptus are doing fine, but getting dwarfed by the feathefins.

My ctenochromis male is psychotic. He's killed every female except one with a deformed
mouth. So, not sure what I"m going to do. I'd move him if someone needed a male for
breeding. Can't do anything with the female.

My n. toae's are doing well, and a nice fish, but no pairing up yet. They are getting somewhat
territorial. so we'll see.

My callochromis male is psychotic also. He's killing off all other callo's. It's unfortunate
because he's one of the nicest looking fish that I have.

I did restock the last six footer with lepidio hecqui, alto comp yellow, and n. longicaudatus. The
hecqui have given me two broods so far. I'm growing out a bunch.

I also started keeping some west africans, teleogramma brichardi. benitochromis nigrodorsalis
moliwe, and steatocranus tinanti. Love these fish.

I also picked up some l. ornatipinnis for one of my shellie tanks. They're ok, but maybe will get
more interesting as they pair up and breed.

I've got some t. ototstigma fry left, but sold off the adult breeders.

That's about it for now. This spring/summer I want to move my stock from my 180 on to
someone, all except the calvus, and move my p. nigripinnis and enants up to that tank. I may
take on certain breeding projects at that time also. I pick and choose what I want to work
with, so it's not overwhelming.

No expansion, although I'd like to build one massive tank. I'm thinking about a 600 gallon
system including sump.

I'd also like to move away from tanganyikans a bit in the coming years and get a few more
westies and even put a new world, or madagascar tank together. And I'd like to do one high-
tech planted tank at some point. We'll see.

Ok, well that's about it. It keeps me busy without overwhelming me, and that was the whole 
plan.

Thanks for asking.


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## prov356

I never did post a pic of the finished room here, so here it is.










And I did also add a rack of 30B's, 20L's, and 10's.


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## jimmie

Whooooooooooooo yeah I like that nice work ,nice work


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## ahud

Hey Tim,

Any problems, changes, ect to the fish room to speak of?


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## mobafrontlover

wow i m amazed and still haven't picked my jaw up off the floor


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## TJL

best fish room i have seen =D>


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## prov356

ahud said:


> Hey Tim,
> 
> Any problems, changes, ect to the fish room to speak of?


As far as changes, mostly inhabitants. I did come up with a way to flush the sumps, and it's working fine. No problems or changes with the system. I have to trim the fronts of two drip trays still because if I let things go and water backs up, it currently finds it's way onto the floor. I really should just keep an eye on them, but you know how it goes. Overflows really do pull more into them them people think they will. They don't just skim.

I bred and sold off my cyathopharynx. These guys really need a huge tank.

I gave up on and sold off my e. melanogenys. They didn't make a good fish room fish. They'd be better in a display tank. Every time I walked into the room, they did nothing but beg food, so it was hard to watch and enjoy them. Never spawned for me, for whatever reason. Ratios maybe. My p. brieni are showing better now that they're gone and I hope to get more fry out of them. The enants really are a hyper active fish. Not really what I like.

I moved my j. transcriptus into a 30 to try and breed before selling them off. They decided instead to kill each other off. Not sure if it was entirely that or a heater problem. When I decided to replace the heater for that tank, it had a bulge in it that I hadn't noticed. So, not sure if it was releasing something toxic, think I've read that somewhere.

I emtied my 180, sold off the tropheus and ornatus and moved the caudo's and calvus to their own tank in the fish room. I need to work with that a bit. When I sold off the tropheus and ornatus, my calvus immediately started spawning. I messed it up when I moved them to the fish room, but I wanted to do mbuna in that tank. It makes a nice family room display. People like the 'pretty colors'.  , and no, they're not salt water fish. :roll:

I sold off my trig breeders and replaced them with n. longicaudatus, a. comp 'yellows', and lepidio hecqui's. Great tank. Hecqui's spawn and raise fry to quite a large size. Comps will take years to grow out. I've got a huge longicaudatus male and waiting for him to pair up with somebody. It's working well overall.

I'm down to 1m/1f c. melanostigma. I've got them in a 30 trying to breed them. I had a holding female, stripped her and she promptly died on me. Eggs didn't last either. So, I'm holding out hope for the last two. I've started giving them cherry shrimp. We'll see.

My n. toae have been spawning after waiting 18 months for something to happen. I had four alone in a tank and no idea as to sex, since they are difficult to discern. I had one that was slightly smaller and darker and was hoping she was female. One day I noticed she was looking ragged from stress/aggression. You know the look, damaged scales, body color is off, and one cloudy eye. I considered intervening and getting her out, but noticed that she seemed to be the aggressor. Plus my focus was on breeding them, so decided to let things be. Wouldn't you know it, next day or so she had covered a rock with about 300 eggs. She spawned in that condition. No idea who dad was as she was letting no one near. After a few days, all eggs seemed to fungus and were gone, so I was disapponted, but hopeful. First time doesn't always go well. But about a week later I had a cloud of fry, maybe two dozen. I decided to let her keep them because I like to see them raise them if they can/will. I heard that they'll protect for weeks. She did ok, but numbers dwindled over time. When she was down to about six, I decided to try to get them into a breeder net. I got about 3, but they didn't survive a day. So much for that. It wasn't a day or so before she had covered the rock again. Eggs disappeared like before, but this time I decided to lift the rock to see if there were wrigglers anywhere. No dice. Put things back and waited and sure enough another cloud of fry appreared. I came up with what I thought was a good method of siphoning them out. I placed a breeder net into a bucket up on something to raise it an inch or two. That way I could siphone into the net and the sand would fall into the bucket leaving the fry in the net. Remove the net and place into a 2.5g. Worked fine until I took my eye off the outlet of the hose and ended up siphonging fry onto the top of the breeder net. Picked them off, but of course they didn't survive. I did manage to siphon about 15 or so properly and they're doing well on microworm. So good idea but idiot execution. I hope to get these to grow out. They were a challenge.

I need to do something different with my callipterus. No fry yet. I was talking last night with someone at the OCA meeting who gave me some ideas.

My cyps are breeding like crazy and have given me a lot of practice stripping fry. Now if I can keep them alive. I've tried a few things. I've only gotten 4 out of dozens. I may try letting them school with my p. nigripinnis fry. They survive and do well in the adult tank. I've got about two dozen in there now.

I just added some t. dhonti 'orange scribble'. Great fish. I got them because I like my temporalis sp. shell so much. I got six and they promptly let me know which two were being voted out of the tank. It was supposed to be 2m/4f, so not sure what's up. I couldn't sex them right now even at 3" to save my life so not sure how the dealer did. I've isolated the two outcasts waiting to see. Hopefully the four females didn't evict the two males. :lol:

My temporalis/pulcher tank is doing welll. Sold off my pulcher breeders and letting their fry grow out. The temporalis are breeding again.

As far as westies, much tougher so far to breed. I've only got one westie that needs soft water, so can't blame that.

Bred and sold off my l. sp. ornatipinnis kigoma.

I've got a pair of eretmodus sp. north that I'm hoping will spawn, but might have to get them into another tank. They're with my cyps and callipterus. I've got single males in other tanks, down to my last female.

I've finally gotten p. nicholsi fry, about a dozen growing out.

My n. parililus are colored up like nobody's business. I've got a 30B split with a pair on each side. They often meet at the clear divider, both male and female, and go at each other. I've got some bad video of it, but haven't uploaded it. Still waiting for fry.

My s. tinanti are breeding but very low numbers. First five, then two. Don't know what the deal is with that.

Other than that, I picked up a. alcalicus "soda cichlids". They come from Lake Natron, which is very hard, very alkaline and very warm. The water temp can exceed 100 degrees. I keep mine at about 89-90. I bought four at the June OCA meeting. Too small to sex. In two months time, they grew, matured, spawned, and their fry are about an inch long now. Not sure if it's the temp or what, but they live fast. Some large fish grow fast, but these guys also mature quickly too. My dominant male killed off the other male and eventually his mate, but I've still got one unsexed smaller one and three fry. These are on the CARES endangered list, so I decided I'm going to get them into a 30B and see if I can get a large group going.

I'm thinking of expanding the fish room, but not sure. I'd like to get either some racks of 33L's going or a couple of large tanks so I can do large new world's or maddie's. Still haven't done lake vics yet either. And still have dozens of tangs and westies I want to keep. And then there's the 'chromides' from asia and iranochichla. So, I've got some decisions to make.

Sorry you asked? 

Thanks for the compliments, btw.


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## Floridagirl

Tim,

I love reading about your fish!


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## newforestrob

*prov356*
I've finally gotten p. nicholsi fry, about a dozen growing out.

If you want to keep breeding these,make sure you keep replenishing your females,they really slow down as they get older,

I look at your fishroom sometimes,it encourages me to get off my butt,for the next setup,excellent job,I suspect this thread will end up being alot more than 4 pages now,justifiably so


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## prov356

> If you want to keep breeding these,make sure you keep replenishing your females,they really slow down as they get older,


Thanks for the tip. They were amazingly small when they first spawned, not more than 1.5". Stripping a fish that small isn't for the faint of heart. I need 6 to get club breeder points. Then a quantity more for a westie community tank, maybe 2m/8-10 female. Already got the males, so just need more females. After that, I'll let them know they can slow down. 



> I look at your fishroom sometimes,it encourages me to get off my butt,for the next setup


I look back on it, and wonder how I stuck with it for 14 months. That's a long time to look at an unfinished fish room. Oftentimes like gets in the way before you can finish something like that. 
Just bit by bit each day.



> Tim,
> 
> I love reading about your fish!


Thanks. I wasn't sure anyone would read all that.


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## ahud

Floridagirl said:


> Tim,
> 
> I love reading about your fish!


+1

Always fun to hear about what you are keeping and the successes and failures. :thumb:


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## Cromak

wow, that is awesome  :thumb:


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## newcichlidiot

As far as lighting costs, you could add dimmer switches to those rope lights and cut your costs considerably. And also vary the lighting intensity as well. Just another saved $.02.


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## prov356

newcichlidiot said:


> As far as lighting costs, you could add dimmer switches to those rope lights and cut your costs considerably. And also vary the lighting intensity as well. Just another saved $.02.


I swapped it out for dual t-8's. Not sure if I mentioned that somewhere. I prefer it because it lets me use actinics on certain tanks. Easier to vary the look of each tank.


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## ahud

From what I understand, you now have two systems, the original setup with the six foot tanks, and then the new rack with the smaller tanks. Is that correct?

Besides price, was there any other motives for going with the smaller tanks and not another set of large tanks?


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## prov356

> From what I understand, you now have two systems, the original setup with the six foot tanks, and then the new rack with the smaller tanks. Is that correct?


Yes



> Besides price, was there any other motives for going with the smaller tanks and not another set of large tanks?


It wasn't about price, but entirely about function. They were intended to be breeder/growouts.


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## cantrell00

> Speaking of pumps and heaters, I used mag24's for the sumps. I also used 400w heaters for the sumps. Back when I first started using the basement for fish, I had trouble warming some growout tubs that were near the floor where it stayed cool. Based on that, I oversized. Well, I don't know what it is that does it, but it's staying about 76-77 degrees in the room. So, I unplugged the heaters. Don't even use them. My tanks stay at about 79-81 degrees all the time. We'll see if that holds when cold winters come. I've given advice on heater sizing, but flunked it myself. Who'd have known the room would be so warm. Can't account for it, all heat vents are closed. All that water circulating in the room maybe? The pumps generating heat keeping the water warm?


What was the conclusion on the winter months? Is there a necessity to provide auxillary heat? if there is, are you using the heaters in the tanks or heating the whole room?

My winter's are not really even considered "winter" at all, compared to where you live. I am hoping that the large % of water in the room will help in maintaining the room temp.. We will see.


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## prov356

> What was the conclusion on the winter months? Is there a necessity to provide auxillary heat? if there is, are you using the heaters in the tanks or heating the whole room?


I don't use the heaters either in winter or summer. My biggest concern is keeping the room from getting too warm, even in winter. It's a tight space with little circulation. It stays warmer than the other side of the fish room that's more open. The worst time is actually spring/fall when it's neither warm enough for the AC to be on nor cold enough outside to cool the room. My tanks right now in that area are mid 80's or so and it's only 70's outside. I've got a ventilation fan going 24/7 to try to draw warm air out. I think I just need a larger fan(s) to get some circulation going. It's just not been a big enough problem for me to do anything about it. Something generates heat in that room. I know the pumps for one, but there may be other dynamics involved because of all that's going on in that enclosed space, don't know. Supplemental AC is an option, but it's been ok up to now. Fish don't seem to care whether it's 78 or 88 in the tanks.

I think you need to wait and see. You may thnk you're going to need heat and then end up running the AC all winter. Your room's a tight space like mine. But you've got options to open things up more to the outside. I've got no windows in that end of the basement to ventilate. I'm not sure that the ventilation fan is helping much. I've got my head in the sand over it at the moment just enjoying my fish. I guess after getting through the seasons once or twice, I don't worry about it now.


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## cantrell00

prov356 said:


> What was the conclusion on the winter months? Is there a necessity to provide auxillary heat? if there is, are you using the heaters in the tanks or heating the whole room?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't use the heaters either in winter or summer. My biggest concern is keeping the room from getting too warm, even in winter. It's a tight space with little circulation. It stays warmer than the other side of the fish room that's more open. The worst time is actually spring/fall when it's neither warm enough for the AC to be on nor cold enough outside to cool the room. My tanks right now in that area are mid 80's or so and it's only 70's outside. I've got a ventilation fan going 24/7 to try to draw warm air out. I think I just need a larger fan(s) to get some circulation going. It's just not been a big enough problem for me to do anything about it. Something generates heat in that room. I know the pumps for one, but there may be other dynamics involved because of all that's going on in that enclosed space, don't know. Supplemental AC is an option, but it's been ok up to now. Fish don't seem to care whether it's 78 or 88 in the tanks.
> 
> I think you need to wait and see. You may thnk you're going to need heat and then end up running the AC all winter. Your room's a tight space like mine. But you've got options to open things up more to the outside. I've got no windows in that end of the basement to ventilate. I'm not sure that the ventilation fan is helping much. I've got my head in the sand over it at the moment just enjoying my fish. I guess after getting through the seasons once or twice, I don't worry about it now.
Click to expand...

Understood... Yeah - if I don't have to deal with the additional cost of adding heat, I will be happy..

It is really a silly comparison anyway.. The extent of insulation (R value) & the very large ambient temp differences are huge...

As for your head in the sand, I don't blame you for not "looking" for problems - they tend to make themself known without looking for them anyway.

This is an awesome room, BTW.. The planning & execution is very impressive. Hopefully mine will be D O N E in late October...


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## dsouthworth

What have you done in order to deal with the different water parameters thats each tank needs? or have you just gone with a single pH and KH for all tanks?

Seems like it's the only part of your setup that I can't figure out.

Love the work. You did all the thinking, And ill be copying the w/c system eventually.


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## prov356

> What have you done in order to deal with the different water parameters thats each tank needs? or have you just gone with a single pH and KH for all tanks?


It initially was all Tanganyikan, so it wasn't too difficult to accomodate them. I added a bit of baking soda and epsom salt to the storage tank when I filled it. Now that it's becoming more varied, I'm backing off on that. Most fish will do fine in a range. My tap is fairly middle of the road, so it works fine, but I'm starting to get into a few west africans that supposedly require softer water to spawn. I'm going to be setting up RO and a separate holding tank for that. I only added the buffer to accomodate for any laziness and missed water changes or over stocking. I added the magnesium sulfate, just because. I never did buffer any of the smaller tanks, just filled from the tap. I use a few for fry/growout of tanganyikans as well as west aftrican breeding. Other than having trouble getting some of the breeding going, all do fine. I prefer to keep it simple and use straight from the tap until the fish show me they need otherwise.

But, there is one exception, come to think of it. I have alcolapia alcalicus, 'soda cichlids'. They come from Lake Natron in Africa, which is incredibly alkaline with temps sometimes reaching 100 degrees. I think I read the KH value in the lake is like 1700, and that's DH, not ppm. I just mixed up a hefty amount of the sodium bicarbonate and magnesium sulfate. I don't get precise with these things. If I had to do for all tanks as I do for them. It'd get old real fast. I don't get overly concerned with measuring or trying to maintain 'ideal' water parameters. I just try to keep the pH from crashing for the most part.


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## dsouthworth

Well i hope it stays relatively simple for you. 
Something like this shouldn't have all that manual labor. And you've made a superb example of that. 
Good job sir.


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## ahud

Do you still feed NLS? Feed anything else?

No breeding from my Thomasi yet, you have any luck with these guys? Everything I read suggested they were an easy fish to breed, but all of the literature is a little older and from what I have been told the race that is circulating in the hobby today is far different than the original one.


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## prov356

ahud said:


> Do you still feed NLS? Feed anything else?
> 
> No breeding from my Thomasi yet, you have any luck with these guys? Everything I read suggested they were an easy fish to breed, but all of the literature is a little older and from what I have been told the race that is circulating in the hobby today is far different than the original one.


I feed NLS, cherry shrimp, microworm, decapsulated brine eggs. Depends on fish and size, etc. I feed the cherry shrimp because I have thousands, they're worse than snails. Can't get rid of them. I have them in tanks with fish that eat them and they still thrive. But, they do keep the java moss looking nice, so earn their keep.

How long have you had the thomasi? Didn't you just get them not too long ago? Patience, my man, patience. 

There's a new guinea form. That's what I have. Probably what you have. It's just a different variant, that's all, from what was first collected. I hear this form is more aggressive, but mine are very docile. Don't believe everything you hear.


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## prov356

> Well i hope it stays relatively simple for you.
> Something like this shouldn't have all that manual labor. And you've made a superb example of that.
> Good job sir.


Thanks, and I hope it stays simple too. I want to be able to continue well into my retirment years which aren't coming quickly enough.


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## ahud

Yeah, I bought mine over the summer, so I have not had them too long. From articles I read these guys were easy to breed. Mine are the same form as yours, but I disagree on them being docile. Mine fuss constantly.

If cherries are that bad then I need to grab some!


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## deaver

awesome thread opcorn:


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## lilcountrygal

I havent seen this. Thanks for bumping it. What an awesome talent you have, Tim! opcorn:

Simply amazing.


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## UNIDEKE

Wow great thread! Would be nice to see a video tour! :thumb:


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## prov356

Thanks all. It's been almost 2.5 years since setup and I think I only have a pair of gobies left from the initial stocking. I'm in a mode of get 'em, breed 'em and move 'em on so I can get something else. I just added a rack of 19 tanks to help with that. Cycling them now. I hope to reserve the 6 footers for single species breeding tanks.










I used 10w outdoor LED's for the lighting. I really like it and plan to switch the entire fish room over at some point soon. The six main tanks are 33 longs. I really like the versatility of the footprint. Same as a 55 without the height, which is rarely needed. I can also divide them into 2 - 24" spaces, when needed.


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## deaver

did u make those blue sponge filters?


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## prov356

deaver said:


> did u make those blue sponge filters?


Yes, I used Poret foam and attached slate tiles. I've never been happy with the design of most commercial sponge filters.


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## deaver

thank-you. where do u buy it?


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## prov356

Swiss Tropicals is the only source that I know of. I cut down the 4" x 4" stock. Comes in 36" lengths, I believe. I went with the 10ppi because I don't want it to excel in mechanical filtration like most sponge filters do. I vacuum stuff out during water changes in these tanks. Once a sponge gets thoroughly gunked up, I have to believe biofiltration capacity declines. I plan to remove them and just swish them around in a bucket of water to loosen and remove what I can. We'll see how it goes in time.


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## Guest

Absolutely amazing. I have nothing else to say.

Since your original stock is now gone and your mood is now breeding and selling. So are you a full time breeder now? Haha

Thanks for the wonderful thread. It's just simply amazing. If only I had half the talent to build something like your's :thumb:


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## quentin8

I love the look of the new lighting. Where would I find some? Thanks


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## SaintPaulCichlids

pm me where you got the led lighting from too.


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## cantrell00

quentin8 said:


> I love the look of the new lighting. Where would I find some? Thanks


ebay...


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## prov356

Yup, ebay. Search on 'outdoor LED floodlight'. They're designed to be hard wired, so you'll need to swap out the cord and add a plug. Use 18-2 SJ cord.


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## SaintPaulCichlids

are the ones you got 6500k, if not can you pm me which one you got.


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## prov356

SaintPaulCichlids said:


> are the ones you got 6500k, if not can you pm me which one you got.


Yes, watch the K rating. Get 6500 K. They all seem to be pretty much the same thing, just different sellers. Different deals come up for limited quantities. I saw one that was a US seller recently. Mine were from overseas and took a few week to arrive.


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## DanniGirl

Looks great! :thumb:



prov356 said:


> I went with the 10ppi because I don't want it to excel in mechanical filtration like most sponge filters do. I vacuum stuff out during water changes in these tanks. Once a sponge gets thoroughly gunked up, I have to believe biofiltration capacity declines. I plan to remove them and just swish them around in a bucket of water to loosen and remove what I can. We'll see how it goes in time.


Interesting point. I use the 30ppi and although it does a superb job, it eventually needs to be replaced.


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## SaintPaulCichlids

Prov356, can you go into more in-dept on your humidity controls? Like how you hook up your exhaust and intake fans if you used it, or if not just go more in-dept on your humidity control method.


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## prov356

SaintPaulCichlids said:


> Prov356, can you go into more in-dept on your humidity controls? Like how you hook up your exhaust and intake fans if you used it, or if not just go more in-dept on your humidity control method.


I don't have humidity problems in the fish room. Probably a variety of reasons. I keep the tanks well covered, and even the sumps. I do run one bathroom type exhaust fan in the main room where it tends to get warmest, but I run that primarily to vent heat. I run a humidifier on my furnace and crank it up full and still shock the cat sometimes when I pet him. The gas heat/ac unit sits right in the middle of the fish room, so it pulls air and moisture in that just helps out the furnace himidifier in the winter or has the moisture pulled out by the AC unit in the summer. The only time it feels even slightly humid in there is when neither the heat nor AC is running in between seasons like late spring or early fall. Stays about 75 or so in the room all the time. I close all heat vents in the winter but open them up in the summer. So, when the AC is runing I've got cooled, dry air pumping into the room. I think a big part of it is just keeping tanks covered. That's the only way excess humidity is going to get into the room, from the tanks. But, age of home and condition of the basement would come into it also. I have a newer home with a dry basement. If you start off with a humid basement, the fish room could easily push it over the edge.


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## SaintPaulCichlids

thank you for clarifying.


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