# New 3D Background Project



## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

After my last disastrous effort to make a 3D background for my tank I have been wracking my brains and have now started my new project.

The idea I have is to first make a 'frame' which will, enclose my inlet and outlet pipes for my external filter and also the heater and internal filter I have. This frame is going to be made out of square guttering downpipe. Once the frame is built I am then going to cover it with expanding foam, or thin polystyrene sheets to make it look like rocks etc I will apply a couple of layers of cement with colours to make it look like rocks.

First part below is cutting the downpipe to equal lengths 









I have initially joined the pipes together with some ty-wraps at one end, I will spend a bit more time in the next few days or so finishing the frame work off.


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## somebody (May 13, 2014)

Good luck with this one hope it works. Your last one confirmed a doubt I had about poly foam backgrounds.


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

somebody said:


> Good luck with this one hope it works. Your last one confirmed a doubt I had about poly foam backgrounds.


Thanks. I always had it in the back of my head, but was hoping if I put enough concrete it would work. With this one though I am making a template/frame which I can hold in place with suction cups, and if necessary weigh down with rocks. Then I can remove it as and when I like and even make modifications.


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## somebody (May 13, 2014)

I would just be worried of making it too big (depth wise) and taking a lot from the water sspace. Also how are you going to solve the stagnant water/dead spot in the hollow part of the down pipes? Just a suggestion but why not ditch the downpipe and silicone real rocks to the bottom of the foam to counteract the buoyancy of the foam. I saw on your last post I didn't see/ don't remember, did you add acrylic fortifier to the cement? That's supposed to water seal the concrete and that might help with the breaking of the concrete


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

somebody said:


> Just a suggestion but why not ditch the downpipe and silicone real rocks to the bottom of the foam to counteract the buoyancy of the foam. I saw on your last post I didn't see/ don't remember, did you add acrylic fortifier to the cement? That's supposed to water seal the concrete and that might help with the breaking of the concrete


I suppose the main issue with the last attempt was the actual amount of foam used. It was like taking a float in the swimming pool and putting it between your legs. No matter how hard you try it always manages to get to the surface. In the end it weighed quite a bit. I didn't add any additives tot he cement/concrete but I did cover the concrete in a sealant (G$ Pond Sealer).

Although this sealed the concrete really well it dissolved the polystyrene leaving voids behind the concrete, which when under the slightest of pressure would crack where it was thinnest. I did notice though, that expanding foam sealant does not dissolve in the sealant.



> I would just be worried of making it too big (depth wise) and taking a lot from the water sspace. Also how are you going to solve the stagnant water/dead spot in the hollow part of the down pipes?


With the depth of the pipes the background will be around 65-70 mm thick, Still plenty of space. The problem with the stagnant water has had me thinking too. I will be hiding my inlet and outlet pipes behind the downpipes, an I am hoping that with some holes cut out of the background then the pump will manage to ensure the water doesn't stagnate (if that is a word). One of the benefits of it being put in when the tank is already established will be the ability to put it in and take it out as and when want to too.

I haven't had chance to look at it today, been at work, but once I get my hands on it again it will be one of the areas I will be looking at.


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

I have now finished cutting all the pieces of pipework for the background. The spaces have been cut into the back so as to hide the pipes and heater. I fitted this into the tank to check the fitting and it fits fairly well. I will have to use some suction cups though to keep it stuck to the back of the tank and prevent the fish from trying to sneak behind it.









The only problem I have at the moment is that the frame is fairly bendy/flimsy. I have still only linked it together with ty-wraps. I am thinking though I will try to get hold of some nylon nuts and bolts to make it sturdier. But it is starting to take the desired shape now though.


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

I have been working quite a bit recently so haven't done so much on the background. I have managed to get hold of some nylon nuts and bolts and am now happy with how sturdy the frame work is.










I have started a little trial with some expanding foam so I can test out how the background will look before committing myself. Will post more pics tomorrow of that as the foam needs 24 hours to cure.


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

Just been to see the results of the test and it looks good. The only trouble now, is I have tried to cover it in cement and it doesn't stick to it at all, Even less so than the polystyrene did. Again, I think this will be a test of patience and I think eventually I will build up a nice layer of cement.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Attach stucco mesh to the surfaces you want to coat. You can find a plastic version of it. The old metal stucco mesh is everywhere. If you can't find the plastic stucco mesh, drill small holes in your framework and using a knitting needle, sew a grid of nylon yarn to the framework. This is the same yarn used to make killifish and rainbowfish spawning mops. If you lock stitch it here and there, it would reinforce the framework.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Instead of suction cups, embed some tank cleaning magnets in the background, then attach it magnetically to the back of the tank with the outside magnet halves. Suction cups get brittle and fail, or a little algae grows under them, produces oxygen that pops them off.


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

Thanks Mcdaphnia.

I have started to cover the background in the foam. Already used two large cans and I am sure I will need some more to finish off. Once it's cured tomorrow I will trim it and start to carve it out a bit.










The cement has started to dry okay and I am sure will look alright given a few coats. Need to be patient.

As regards the suckers I have already ordered a pack so I am going to run with them for the time being, failing that the magnets were another idea I was going to try.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

If you are using foam, I don't think the suction cups will bear the angular pull.You would have to install all of them attached to the tank bottom.


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

All the foam has cured and I have trimmed the edges down. At first I was feeling quite hopeful. Although there were a few little bits where I need to cover the framework a bit more it was looking okay. 









I didn't think it could last, once I started to thin the foam down it started to expose the inside of the foam and the massive holes inside. I am going to have to fill these holes as they are just to big to make them look natural. 


















Luckily though this is only in a couple of places.


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## freelanderuk (Jun 26, 2014)

Hi 
instead of using magnets or suction cups could you not cap off the bottom of the tubes and fill the tubes with gravel, this could be done once in the tank to save lifting a very heavy weight


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

freelanderuk said:


> Hi
> instead of using magnets or suction cups could you not cap off the bottom of the tubes and fill the tubes with gravel, this could be done once in the tank to save lifting a very heavy weight


One of my back up plans, if it does float would be to put some rocks into the foam to weigh it down.

I am going to get the background made, then worry about getting it into the tank.


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## Matt- (Jul 14, 2014)

I really want a 3D background for my tank. Currently I have no background at all, what a shame. But good luck, hope it comes out the way you want it.


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

Matt- said:


> I really want a 3D background for my tank. Currently I have no background at all, what a shame. But good luck, hope it comes out the way you want it.


Thanks for the good wishes Matt :thumb: . I hope with the diary I am writing on here it helps people with making theirs too. Originally I just had rocks with a photograph background taped to the back of the tank. This started to look naff when the algae grows on the back wall and water stains down the back of the glass.


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

I have now finished carving the foam. and the background is ready to be painted.










I am in two minds as to go for the cheaper option which would be to use cement and dyes, which I have readily available and I kind of know will make a half decent job, or to go for some paint, similar to drylok. We can't get hold of drylok in the UK but I have been put onto a place which does a resin based fish safe pond paint. It is expensive £30 a litre and I am not sure whether I will be able to mix the dye into it either as I don't want the entire background the same colour.

I also need to work out a way of putting some rocks inside the frame too as I have put the background into the tanks and as expected it doesn't sink. Not as bad as the previous attempt though and I have plenty of scope to keep this one weighted down.


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

First coat of cement, going on nicely










Still haven't come up with a good way to weight it down though. :-?


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

If you plug the holes in the bottom of the square channels with the spray foam and then add enough gravel or small rocks to the channels to counteract the buoyancy, this might help weigh down the background. Hopefully the spray foam will stay adhered to the plastic and not come loose over time.


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

Thanks for the reply Deeda. I am abit worried though about putting in too much foam and counteracting the weights. I will try it though once I have all the coats of cement on etc.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Deeda said:


> If you plug the holes in the bottom of the square channels with the spray foam and then add enough gravel or small rocks to the channels to counteract the buoyancy, this might help weigh down the background. Hopefully the spray foam will stay adhered to the plastic and not come loose over time.


That is a good basic concept but I would use the proper adhesive and the end caps for this plastic tubing, or mechanically attach (e.g. nylon bolts) a bottom panel to secure the gravel or rocks. I would use rocks just small enough to fit in the tubes because gravel or sand will go anaerobic in an enclosed space like this and emit hydrogen sulfide gas into the water.


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

I think I might use a flat piece of plastic, ty wrapped to the bottom, and fill with pebbles. I don't want to put too much in, just enough to counteract the buoyancy of the foam.
Then the suction cups will just be used to keep the background upright


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

Finished the painting with cement and different colours, mixed with the natural grey cement, black and brown cement tints. We have been having some really hot weather at the moment so the drying times have been reduced dramatically.

Only need to wait for this to all dry now and I will cover it in sealant. I have half a tin left, I hope it will be enough, otherwise I will have to order some more.


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## theboothsociety (Jan 3, 2012)

I'm sure there is a product like waterproof paint at local hardware store similar to dry lock? much easier to work with & can be bought at any local hardware store. I also liked the way it looked with the holes in it. looked more like real rock. Also I believe in my research on BG's, not 100%sure but I thought I read with that spray foam stuff, when you cut into it and expose the spores on the inside, it can be toxic and not fish safe. Its fine when it drys and makes that hard shell. I would double check that because you have exposed all the spores by cutting up the foam like that. However as long as you do a very good job coating it with dry lock or cement, I think you should be fine. I also found a spray foam made for ponds, sold at local HD, its black in color and is meant for bonding rocks together when they make waterfalls and ponds. Also fish safe.


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

theboothsociety said:


> I'm sure there is a product like waterproof paint at local hardware store similar to dry lock? much easier to work with & can be bought at any local hardware store. I also liked the way it looked with the holes in it. looked more like real rock. Also I believe in my research on BG's, not 100%sure but I thought I read with that spray foam stuff, when you cut into it and expose the spores on the inside, it can be toxic and not fish safe. Its fine when it drys and makes that hard shell. I would double check that because you have exposed all the spores by cutting up the foam like that. However as long as you do a very good job coating it with dry lock or cement, I think you should be fine. I also found a spray foam made for ponds, sold at local HD, its black in color and is meant for bonding rocks together when they make waterfalls and ponds. Also fish safe.


Thanks for the comments. Living in the UK a lot of the products like drylok and waterfall/pond foam are not readily available. When I search them, they are imported and cost an absolute fortune. 
I haven't done a great deal over the weekend due to work commitments but I have managed to put a good layer of sealant on the cement and foam today. After a few days drying/curing I will look at sealing the pipes and filling them ready for it to go in the tank. :dancing:


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

A couple of coats of pond sealant and I will now leave it to dry for a few days before attempting to put it in the tank. Whilst it is curing I will blank off some of the pipes and fill with stones to weigh it down.


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## theboothsociety (Jan 3, 2012)

lookin good, the glossiness the pond sealer adds you will not notice once its under water. it might be tough to catch fish if you need to with those caves.


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

theboothsociety said:


> lookin good, the glossiness the pond sealer adds you will not notice once its under water. it might be tough to catch fish if you need to with those caves.


Hi Thanks for the comments. I have just capped the ends off and popped some suction cups on the back almost ready to go in the tank.

As for the caves, the downside of having an established tank is that its a struggle to get the background in and to 'sink'. The upside is that if needs be I can take it in and out whenever I feel like it, so if the fish do hide inside the caves I will just lift it out and they'll soon jump ship


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

My first attempt at getting the background to sink has failed. I got it about 75% submerged before the buoyancy took over. I had only filled four of the 15 or so downpipes with rocks, so when I get another chance and the background has dried out I will cover some more of the pipes and fill them up with more rocks.


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

Sorry for the lack of updates, been busy over the summer. Kids on holiday etc

I have finally managed to get the background into the tank and its not floating. I did have a little bit of trouble again, but with addition of a few more suction cups and it seems okay now.










The only issue I have, is I left the edges unpainted and it look's pretty poor :-(

My advice to anyone who is looking to do this themselves is :
1) Have a lot of patience.
2) Do not under estimate the buoyancy of either polystyrene, expanding foam.


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## freelanderuk (Jun 26, 2014)

Apart from the edge's it looks great , you could be mistaken to think it was a brick wall


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

I've got some fake plants in now, can't see the left edge as much now. Gonna keep my eye out for some rocks too. Resist the wife, who is wanting tacky ornaments


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## somebody (May 13, 2014)

It turned out great. Glad you found a way to counteract the buoyancy. I agree some rocks in the foreground would help a lot.


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

Thanks for the positive comments guys, here is a picture with the fake plants. It covers up the problem of seeing the foam in the corner.


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

Had a near disaster over the weekend.

Whilst I was at work overnight, three of the little mbuna's had thought it wouls be a good idea to go exploring and had managed to get themselves stuck around the internal filter. The gap I had gut out for the filter outlet, which I use to aerate the tank was about 2cm too large and the fish had managed to swim under the current and into the void.

After safely removing the background and rescuing the fish I used a piece of air pipe to create an extension onto the filter outlet so I could lower the outlet and make it much harder for them to escape.

Its been three days now and they haven't tried any more great escapes, either this has worked or they have decided it was a daft idea to try and get away.


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

Well these little tinkers have been absolutely doing my head in :x . They have been sneaking behind the filter every day.

I have now been down to the local supermarket and bought a plastic sieve. Cut out the strainer and put this across the filter outlet. There is now nowhere they can get through. :dancing:










Just hope this holds out and doesn't break/disintegrate with the flow of the filter.


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

Don't know if anyone would be still interested in this post, but here is a picture of my tank and I have had the background in with no major problems for a good 3 months now.

With my rocks and fake plants it's looking nice


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

It turned out well. Keep that inlet screen unblocked.


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

I am really pleased with the final result. There is a surprisingly good current going on with the external filter firing in at the left hand side of the tank, and the internal filter at the left, which also puts plenty of air in the tank. :-D


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## sweety (Jan 10, 2010)

What did you use to seal it G4 pond sealer ?


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

sweety said:


> What did you use to seal it G4 pond sealer ?


Yeah, I got some from e-bay. Put a couple of coats on and left it to dry and cure for a nearly a week.

I was looking at some of the guys in America who were using special pond-safe paints, but I was limited with what was available over here.


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## sweety (Jan 10, 2010)

Nathan Shaw said:


> sweety said:
> 
> 
> > What did you use to seal it G4 pond sealer ?
> ...


Hoping to do one for my next tank but it's so much harder for us here in the UK as there seems to be no fish friendly paints etc over here & only ever been abe to find white drylok but it's so costly


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## Nathan Shaw (Jun 20, 2014)

To be fair, if you do one on a new tank you shouldn't have that much trouble. I had seen quite a few videos where they had only used the concrete as is without any sealant, just gave it plenty of washes prior to adding the fish.

But I haven't done it that way so don't do that on my say so.


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