# New 180 tank. A few concerns on substrate and filter



## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

I have numerous Haps and Peacocks and wow, over the years they've just gotten too big. The market for a used tank is really good right now, I found a 180Gal tank in great condition. It comes with a wet/dry filter, what is that? I only have experience with the canister style. That is my main concern, is it superior to the canister system? I have no problem trying to get to learn it.

My second concern is the substrate and what brand to buy. Right now my 55Gal has crushed coral. Since I'll be starting fresh with the 180Gal I want it to resemble their natural habitat as much as possible, so I need sand. I don't want that sophisticated sand with bacteria and such since I plan on using the Cycle supplement to accelerate the cycling process (I'll also be putting it a few gold fish and a pleco to further speed up the process). Anyway, I can make do with regular sand and rinsing until my hands get red. Is there a particular brand available? What's the going rate on just regular sand so I don't get ripped off? I want the sand to be white. The tank has a black background, I think the contrast will look sweet. I guess that's it...just mainly concerned over the wet/dry filter this guy is selling me and the substrate, and where to get it. And how many pounds I would I need? It's a 6x2x2' tank/180gal.

Thanks


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Also, I'd like to add what is the easiest way to get away with a nice (not so cheap) looking background? I'd like a background with the illusion of rocks.


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

Look into Pool Filter Sand. It is pretty white, and requires minimal rinsing. Very inexpensive. If I recall, I used 2 bags (100 lbs) in my 180, and that amount seemed right to me.

Assuming the tank is drilled, the wet/dry sump is the way to go for filtration - look into poret foam as a mechanical media, lots of us use it in our sumps. Nothing to be afraid of with a wet/dry, just do some reading on sumps and the basic rules of thumb about size and water levels to avoid issues if either the overflow clogs or the power goes out.

Many differetn ways to approach a background, but given the tank is painted, you are limited to either stacking real rocks up against it, or making/buying a styrofoam based background. Again, lots to read up on about that - check out the DIY section for lots of examples.

If you are simply adding the fish from your 55 into the new tank and NOT adding additional fish at that time, you can probably simply move the existing filter to the new tank for a month or so as the bacteria become established in the sump. That way you can avoid most of the issues with cycling. This assumes you are not keeping the 55 running.

Good luck with the new tank.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

nodima said:


> Look into Pool Filter Sand. It is pretty white, and requires minimal rinsing. Very inexpensive. If I recall, I used 2 bags (100 lbs) in my 180, and that amount seemed right to me.
> 
> Assuming the tank is drilled, the wet/dry sump is the way to go for filtration - look into poret foam as a mechanical media, lots of us use it in our sumps. Nothing to be afraid of with a wet/dry, just do some reading on sumps and the basic rules of thumb about size and water levels to avoid issues if either the overflow clogs or the power goes out.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the kind reply. I did a little search on pool filter sand. This is exactly what I want, nothing too complicated and cheap. I did stumble across a company called US Silica that make really white pool filter sand (regular sand is just tan...eh. White is just better, right?).

Can you point to the right thread or link that explains the wet/dry filtration system, if you know of any? That'd be my only challenge really. To learn it well.

I'll just stack up rocks for the background...the problem is finding a fish shop that sells decent looking rock. Most around here aren't too great.

Wouldn't using the 55 canister filter be a bad idea since the GPH isn't fast enough for the new 180 tank? Or do you mean having the wet/dry (is it also called sump filtration?) running as well...both simultaneously.

Thanks


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## Koteckn (May 16, 2012)

Here's my thread which documents my DIY 30gal wet/dry sump used to filter my 75gal SA/CA tank (water's always crystal clear, minus feeding time). It's been running for 8+ months now with no setbacks. You're more than welcome to use this as an idea. The nice things about sumps is, if you want, you can build them however you want. Ask as many questions as you need to when it comes to external filtration. There are a lot of positives using a sump, but if not properly thought out.... you can cause some major damage to your floor for one and poison your fish if the wrong materials are used.

http://cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopi ... 0&t=246505

Good luck and I look forward to seeing this progress.

- H


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

> Wouldn't using the 55 canister filter be a bad idea since the GPH isn't fast enough for the new 180 tank? Or do you mean having the wet/dry (is it also called sump filtration?) running as well...both simultaneously.


Simultaneously. I'd run it for a couple months with the sump. Save the bio media and try to incorporate it into your sump somehow.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Koteckn said:


> Here's my thread which documents my DIY 30gal wet/dry sump used to filter my 75gal SA/CA tank (water's always crystal clear, minus feeding time). It's been running for 8+ months now with no setbacks. You're more than welcome to use this as an idea. The nice things about sumps is, if you want, you can build them however you want. Ask as many questions as you need to when it comes to external filtration. There are a lot of positives using a sump, but if not properly thought out.... you can cause some major damage to your floor for one and poison your fish if the wrong materials are used.
> 
> http://cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopi ... 0&t=246505
> 
> ...


Thanks for this thread! I'll go through it once I wrap it up for this school semester (it's been a hectic 5 week course).

On another note, wow. So the maker for the white sand I mentioned doesn't have a dealer anywhere in my area. They re-directed me to this site that can sell it to me and ship it on its way....for $86. Yikes! It costs $20 for 100lbs (pretty awesome) but $86 for shipping...that is out of the question. Is there anyway of finding good pool filter sand locally (in white particularly)? Home Depot, Lowes? Any specialized store? I think home depot only offers the universal color which is brown-ish.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Any pool supply store. Around here it's Leslie's. Not sure by you, though. PFS is usually $5-9 for 50 lbs.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

I will ask my pool guy on Thurs 

I just picked up the tank, it's enormous. It has light scratches on the front and left side, but on the right side it has some pretty bad scratches. Is there a way to remove them? I was just gonna just try to buff them out with a scratch remover cream, but I doubt it'll do any good. Worst comes to worst, I heard sanding followed by polishing does the trick. I heard it was 800grit to 1000grit....ca anyone confirm this?

I spent a few mins trying to figure out the wet/dry filtration system just by eyeballing it. Correct me if I'm wrong. Okay so there are 3 compartments. There's a cover for two compartments (where the media is at), on top of the cover is a hose that splits into two for each corresponding compartments. Flow will reach the 3rd compartment in which there is a water pump, water pump returns water to the tank. Here's the strange part. In that same 3rd compartment where the water pump is at, a section of that compartment was drilled and there's plumbing piping there with a valve. Is that there just for an emergency?

My other main concern is what if the water level rises in the filter and spills (loss of electricity I guess) ?? I'm sure this info is in the thread I was shared with, but in a nutshell, what is the best way to prevent this from happening?

Pretty good pick up. $300 for a 180gal tank 6x2x2, wet/dry filter, both clear life brand plus all these other goodies, water pump, 2 air filters, lighting (sucks..this I have to replace for sure...this will be another topic I'd like to talk about), UV filter, and even 3 multi outlets lol.


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## oyster dog (Jul 2, 2013)

TCool774 said:


> Here's the strange part. In that same 3rd compartment where the water pump is at, a section of that compartment was drilled and there's plumbing piping there with a valve. Is that there just for an emergency?


I suspect your tank was plumbed to be a reef tank, and the 3rd outlet is for another accessory, like a protein skimmer or a calcium reactor. You won't need either of these for your cichlid tank.


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## oyster dog (Jul 2, 2013)

TCool774 said:


> My other main concern is what if the water level rises in the filter and spills (loss of electricity I guess) ?? I'm sure this info is in the thread I was shared with, but in a nutshell, what is the best way to prevent this from happening?


There should be enough reserve capacity in the sump to contain the extra water. Once the water level in main tank drops below the overflow it will stop flowing to the sump.


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## shelbynjakesdad (Mar 13, 2013)

About the sand... the idea of white sand sounds nice, but I've had it in the past and hated it. It always looked a little dirty, even right after cleaning. I switched over to tan colored sand and it is great - it looks SO much cleaner. The other thing to keep in mind is that the sand will look quite different when under bright lights. The sand I have now looks very dark brown, but when I turn on the lights it is a very nice tan color. Go with what you think is best... just sharing my experience. :thumb:


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

A lot of terrific replies here! Thanks everyone.

I will take pics of everything soon and post them up so you guys can take a look on what I'm dealing with. If it really bugs me in the long run, I'll need help identifying what kind of hoses I should get to replace the current ones in which don't seem too bad, but we'll see. For sure, I need help finding out what kind of nozzles (outtake flow) I need since they're missing.

Thanks shelby for the advice. You speak the truth, lighting is key. I think I'll go with ordinary pool filter sand that is sold in Home Depot (I'll also check out lowes...maybe it's the same stuff anyhow).

Steps:
1) So guys, my first priority is wetsanding down the tank to remove scratches. Worst comes to worst, I can hire one of those acrylic tank scratch remover pros. But I'll make sure I'll know what I'm doing. I plan on wetsanding at 800-1000-1500 correspondingly. Followed by a nice polish with a variable speed polishing machine using novus or a simple plastic polisher. I'll be doing this inside and out. Question though, would just rinsing the inside with water be safe enough to disintoxicate the inside??? I'm sure it'll get dirty inside with the sanding that will be done. I plan on following this link here http://www.overclock.net/t/333377/how-t ... om-acrylic instructions on POST #4. *2-3 days*

2) Buy the sand and rinse it. *1 day*

3) Focus on the wet/dry filtration and clean it thoroughly. Maybe "practice with it" to see if I understand it correctly. By then, I'll have pics up so you guys can see what I'm dealing with. *1 day*

4) Decide whether or not to replace the hoses and buy the nozzles. Again, would need help with that. Hopefully by then I'll have answers upon reaching this step.

5) Buy accessories. I will need two heaters right? How many watts and to what temp? Right now I have 3-4 females in my 55GAL with 9 males, so I'm guessing 76-78F? Also I'll buy water flower, so water is directed towards the direction the flower is pointing. I totally just blanked out on what those are actually called. Will also buy a bottle or two of Cycle. Maybe some rocks, if I find nice ones. Plants for sure. I love anubias. They're African anyway. *1 day*

6) I need a stand! I hate carpentry, so having one made is a must. Tank is 6x2x2 feet. What is the average price for one? I heard it was in the $1000...worst comes to worst, get a used one. Or hire someone to make me one on craiglist. This guy's rates are pretty **** low, but his location is far.*3-5 days*

7) SET IT UP!!!!! I'll be putting a few small goldfish in there to start the cycling process, and my large pleco who is bulletproof (he has helped me cycle 2 tanks now) *1 day*. Wait a week to decide step #8.

8 ) Decide whether or not use the 55Gal canister filter to help speed up the cycling process and simply transfer my fish over. If I do, I won't have a hospital tank. What if something went wrong?

This is my master plan. Excited.  :fish:


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

TCool774 said:


> 6) I need a stand! I hate carpentry, so having one made is a must. Tank is 6x2x2 feet. What is the average price for one? I heard it was in the $1000...worst comes to worst, get a used one. Or hire someone to make me one on craiglist. This guy's rates are pretty darn low, but his location is far.*3-5 days*


If it is made right, the finish time alone will take longer than 3-5 days...think paint drying, multiple coats of stain and finish.


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## shelbynjakesdad (Mar 13, 2013)

A few more thoughts...

You might want to consider making a spraybar for your outflow to the tank. It is something you can do yourself with just PVC. Mine took a bit of tweaking, but eventually I got it to work great. The surface agitation is amazing and the sand stays clear of debris. Here is a thread to look at:
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=257030

Also, why not consider a "fishless" cycle? They are great for growing beneficial bacteria, you can grow bacteria in much larger quantities than by adding a few fish. With your old canister to jump start the cycle, it should not take that long. There are some great articles here:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/c ... y_list.php

Good luck, have fun, and POST PICS!


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Thanks Shelby! Will definitely look into making a spray bar, looks great! Looks easy to make, just got to go to Home Depot and look for the stuff. Great thread to add to the list. Once I hit the filtration level.

So today I went hunt for the supplies. Found the wet sandpaper I need to shine up the tank. I'm going to do 800-1000-1500 followed by applying 3M rubbing compound, and finally a nice polish with a plastic polishing cream using a buffing machine (non variable speed, but it's low RPM so I should be ok).

I managed to stumble across a Leslie's pool supply! They sell two kinds of sand, which one should I get?









Also went to Home Depot and found play sand









Which one should I choose? The play sand doesn't look bad at all. The guy at Leslie's had no idea how the sand on the left looks like. I have a hunch you guys will vote for the left sack of sand. My biggest question is, which sand is less darker? That would be the one I'd want.

Good point on the stand, nodima. I will talk to the guy that makes them right away.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Last time I went to Leslie's I was told they had 2 types. One had some chemicals in it. The bag on the right says it controls chloramine? Anyways... 20# is a large grain size, and looks very white. I'd but that. Play sand is very fine, clumps easily and very dirty.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Cool! I'll get the leslie #20 then. Just how course is the sand though since you mentioned it's large in grain size? Just curious.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Coarse? Not sure, but your fish will be fine with it. The larger the grain, the less likely it is too end up in your filtration. Cichlids will spit it all over the place and stir it up. The larger grains sink, and don't get caught up in the flow of the tank.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

After hearing this guy talk about play ground sand....I don't care how large the grain is....silica sand it is


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Yep... settles it!


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

So I went to the fish shop today, and the owner told me not to use silica sand because it lowers the pH. Is this true? I mean, I'll be adding rocks and such. That'll buff up the pH regardless. But theoretically speaking, if I just had silica sand in, would pH really drop?

Also, I might ditch the wet/dry sump filtration and just go for a canister set up since that is what I know. Opinions?

Thanks everyone.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

The Rena 722 Filstar XP3 is rated up to 175gal and the XP4 is rated up to 265gal. Should I just get the XP4 for the heck of it? lol. For sure I'll want to do the spray bar too.

Also, to add to my above post. California water has very high pH. So I should just be fine right? This guy just wants to sell me caribsea sand...in which he tried doing.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Go with the PFS. Never heard that about lowering pH. If so, people would be doing that instead of using peat, driftwood, RO water, driftwood, etc. for South American setups. Ultimately, you need to test your water for pH, gH and kH. Buy a kit from the guy instead of sand.

I would stick with the sump. I am setting up a 180 myself, but without overflows, and wish I had them. I don't know how it should be setup, but feel the benefits are worth the research.

I don't look at what size volume the filter is rated for. Look at GPH. Then subtract at least 50 gph off the top to account for media, head pressure, etc. The magic number you hear on this site is 7-10 times your tank volume per hour. So for your tank, 1260-1800 gph. You'd need to add some pretty heavy duty canisters. A pump for your sump will be cheaper and can provide what you need. I would still run your other canister alongside as a backup.

I have 2 FX5s on a 125 gallon. After media and what not I guess I'm doing about 500-550 gph each. That gets me to about 8 times turnover an hour.

Hope this helps...


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Go with the PFS. Never heard that about lowering pH. If so, people would be doing that instead of using peat, driftwood, RO water, driftwood, etc. for South American setups. Ultimately, you need to test your water for pH, gH and kH. Buy a kit from the guy instead of sand.
> 
> I would stick with the sump. I am setting up a 180 myself, but without overflows, and wish I had them. I don't know how it should be setup, but feel the benefits are worth the research.
> 
> ...


Roger that on PFS. I really didn't believe that guy since he immediately went to getting me quotes for caribsea sand.

I decided to go with canister. Why? This tank will be in my bedroom. I'm sure the sump will be louder and could make the room smell funky since it's really not sealed up. Not feeling too comfortable if it overflows as well for some reason. There will be electrical components next to the tank. The water pump for the sump does 900-ish GPH, and the XP4 does like 450 GPH, so I'll be getting roughly half the power. I'll have to keep up with my water changes, maybe get another one down the line. Then again, the tank won't be overstocked, I think I'll be okay. My main concern is if I could still adapt a spray bar to it. You want the sump? I'll let it go for $100 + shipping. It's made from clear-life and it's 36"x12.5"x18". I'll include everything it came with.


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## Koteckn (May 16, 2012)

I think you should rethink the sump vs. canister debate. One canister most likely will not be enough for one, and a sump is simple once you figure out how they work. Just my two cents though, I look forward to seeing this project come together. If you decide to go with a sump, i'm sure there are many other people, including iggy and myself, that will walk you through the steps of plumbing your tank to sump and then back.

Good luck!
- H


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## lilscoots (Mar 13, 2012)

I second the don't be too hasty on getting rid of the sump sentiment. They usually sit inside the stand and are not that noisy there. There are other DIY sump systems you can build very cheaply that will be nearly silent, not as quiet as a canister but more simple to maintain.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

I already ordered the canister, Filstar XP4 from API. I paid using paypal's bill me later promotion, so it doesn't effect my finances for the project. But I might just try the sump. Maybe it won't be as loud, I don't know. I know you guys will help me, my main worry is if it floods up and spills all over the stand, how loud it'll be, and the smell since it's exposed. The wife might not like that. However, it's what's best for my fish. I just need to know where to buy the hoses and such and the sizes. One pluming pipe behind the tank is cracked, I'll go from there when that step comes.

For now it's having the tank re-conditioned. I'm having someone do it, I calculated the cost of materials and a buffing machine is nearly the same as what I was quoted. Just seems too time consuming and a pain in the butt. I've read so many articles on how to do it. People do it differently, it really depends how bad their tank is to begin with. I'll let the professionals handle it or I might end up ruining it.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Yeah for sure going sump now. I went to my other fish shop and he explained it all to me. The advantages are superior. I guess the other guy just wanted me to sell my sump so I can pick up one of his canisters. Shady guy. I think I"ll just go there to buy supplies and fish. No more advice from him.

I should have the tank re-conditioned, stand and canopy by next week. During that time I'll buy the sand and rinse, clean up the sump, and try to replace the pluming and hoses. =D>


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Heh! So the guy who picked up my tank to re-condition recommends canister over sump. He said bio-balls are bad for the fish, 950 GPH isn't enough. Strangely enough he said that the canister filter at 450 GPH is fine. I asked him about that, he said that my sump has a poor pluming design. Is that true? I plan on removing everything, including that pipe coming out of the side compartment (on the right). I decided on running the canister as well! 

He also said my sump is missing some trays that go on the top two compartments. Is this true?



















I stumbled across these few sentences while reading about sumps and it really boils down everything:



> Sumps or more correctly wet/dry in this case are much better than any other filter type. They break down ammonia over 70% faster, nitrite over 65% faster for a healthier tank. Not to mention the amount of oxygenated water returned to the tank will far exceed any other type of filter.


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## Ensorcelled (Mar 1, 2011)

TCool774 said:


> Heh! So the guy who picked up my tank to re-condition recommends canister over sump. He said bio-balls are bad for the fish, 950 GPH isn't enough. Strangely enough he said that the canister filter at 450 GPH is fine. I asked him about that, he said that my sump has a poor pluming design. Is that true? I plan on removing everything, including that pipe coming out of the side compartment (on the right). I decided on running the canister as well!
> 
> He also said my sump is missing some trays that go on the top two compartments. Is this true?
> 
> ...


Bio balls bad for fish? That's an odd statement considering a basic wet/dry setup in a sump utilized bio balls and is what is generally recommended. I think either way you go you'll be happy, I personally run canisters on all my tanks (Eheim) but have had literally no experience with a sump unfortunately 

Also, little off topic here but nice Supra and presumably RX-7? :drooling: I'm a petrol head when I'm not being a fish nut! :thumb:


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Yeah I didn't buy it. I just thought to myself "Eh, this guy doesn't know much". Yes, that is my Supra and the blue car is a Miata. Both are fantastic Japanese classics. 

On another note regarding sumps. Doesn't the JBJ Nanocube utilize the same idea? About 4 years ago, I kept two small-medium plecos, 2 medium parrot fish, 6 brichardis, 3 deep water haps (no more than 3"), 2 peacocks (5-6"), I think 2 yellow labs....all in a 24g nanocube. My fish guy in Miami (I lived in Miami at that time) was very astounded that so many fish survived in such a small tank. So to conclude, sump is pretty crazy!


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## walzon1 (Jun 17, 2013)

He was probably talking about bio balls being a nitrate factory, this has been going around for awhile. But all things need maintenance and if not maintained can become nitrate factories.


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

The main problem I see with your wet dry is that the drip trays are missing like the guy told you. Those trays help distribute the water evenly across the bio balls so there are no dry areas. It's also important as it is your main mechanical filter and just having some media sitting on top of the bio balls like you have there is going to allow a lot of stuff to bypass and get into the bio balls. I think micron pads work best for the drip trays but they need to be folded up on the edges to ensure all water goes through the pad and none runs over the edges.

The plumbing should be fine with a 950gph pump. If you were to go much higher than that two dump lines would be better than one going into a "T".

There's a lot of sump-o-phobia around regarding wet dry filters for freshwater tanks. The truth is that they will maintain better water quality than most other types of filters provided they are operated and equipped properly. The design has been used for water treatment for a long time, and was widely adopted for fish only salt water setups where fish are more sensitive to water quality issues.

As far as bio balls being bad for fish, that is just nonsense. Agree with the above that they are sometimes referred to as "nitrate factories" but this is largely a misunderstanding. People with reef tanks started calling them that because that because they felt that the bio balls getting clogged with waste produced excess nitrate. In reality reef tanks don't need any other form of bio filtration other than the live rock, and if their bio balls were collecting a lot of waste then they were just not filtering the water well enough before it entered the wet dry section. Many people just use a thin pad or floss in the drip tray and water can run around the edges largely unfiltered dumping waste into the bio section. If you take the time to ensure proper mechanical filtration you can maintain nitrate levels as low as any other setup.

With that said any properly designed and maintained filter will be adequate for most freshwater fish. When it comes to big tanks though a large wet dry is always going to be better suited to handling the large volumes of water needing to be circulated.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

b3w4r3 said:


> The main problem I see with your wet dry is that the drip trays are missing like the guy told you. Those trays help distribute the water evenly across the bio balls so there are no dry areas. It's also important as it is your main mechanical filter and just having some media sitting on top of the bio balls like you have there is going to allow a lot of stuff to bypass and get into the bio balls. I think micron pads work best for the drip trays but they need to be folded up on the edges to ensure all water goes through the pad and none runs over the edges.
> 
> The plumbing should be fine with a 950gph pump. If you were to go much higher than that two dump lines would be better than one going into a "T".
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info! So what you're saying is using a micron pad as a dripping tray? How are the angles and such for my plumbing? So, I also have a UV filter. Where does that plug into? I assume it has something to do with the plumbing pipe on the side of the sump...I've heard some good and bad about UV filters. Not sure if I should run it.

As for the sump being a nitrate factory, that's pretty cool I guess because I'll have lots of anubias plants in tank. Of course, I can't let it get out of hand. That is another topic I'd like to discuss further down the line, maintenance on both the tank and sump in a monthly basis.


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

UV goes on the clean side of your filter before the water goes back to the tank. You dont want dirty water in the UV.

Filter ---> UV ---> tank


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

TCool774 said:


> Thanks for the info! So what you're saying is using a micron pad as a dripping tray? How are the angles and such for my plumbing? So, I also have a UV filter. Where does that plug into? I assume it has something to do with the plumbing pipe on the side of the sump...I've heard some good and bad about UV filters. Not sure if I should run it.
> 
> As for the sump being a nitrate factory, that's pretty cool I guess because I'll have lots of anubias plants in tank. Of course, I can't let it get out of hand. That is another topic I'd like to discuss further down the line, maintenance on both the tank and sump in a monthly basis.


No, you still need a drip tray. Your setup probably uses two drip trays actually. Looks like the manufacturer has a sticker on your filter, try seeing if you can get replacement parts for it. If not you can make the drip trays out of acrylic, but I would try for an OEM replacement part first.

The pipe on the side of the filter is typically used as the return line. The pump goes after it. Many people just submerge the pump in the sump and return the water that way and don't use the side valve.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

b3w4r3 said:


> TCool774 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the info! So what you're saying is using a micron pad as a dripping tray? How are the angles and such for my plumbing? So, I also have a UV filter. Where does that plug into? I assume it has something to do with the plumbing pipe on the side of the sump...I've heard some good and bad about UV filters. Not sure if I should run it.
> ...


Yeah I'll definitely try to find the OEM drip trays. Shouldn't be a problem since it's a big brand (Clear life). I'll talk to the guy at the fish shop.

So I should just remove the side pipe and plug up the hole right? It's pretty annoying.

Thanks Borsig for the info, just gotta figure out how to set it up.

On another note, placed an order for the stand today. I should have the tank and stand back in a week. Until then, I'll focus on the sump (plumbing, drip trays), sand (100lbs PFS and rinse).

Thanks!


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Big progress today, got a few questions in bold:

*~The drain is in the upper left corner. I know it's not a efficient spot, but in either case, I won't run into any problems right? I'm just going to re-use some of the stuff I received such as that big vacuum-ish looking hose. It seems to be just fine. Doesn't it?

~Does the plumbing pipes on the sump's cover look fine? (refer to pics in above posts)

~Bought the materials for the spray bar . Question though, how long should the spray bar be? My tank is 72".

~Where exactly do I put the check valve on the return line? *

In recent news: 
~I bought the sand (my nearest Leslie's ran out! I had to go to another Leslie's..freaked out for a while) - $18
~I bought all spray bar materials mentioned in the thread - $39.73 + an extra $12.98 for a PVC pipe cuter (the home depot guy highly recommended it over using a hand saw. I would have to agree. I had to use it to cut the pipe a little so it'll fit in my car. Bought the 10').* Ok so I hate to ask, but how do I use the primer/cement? Do I apply that stuff on the ends of the piping and then slide them over to connect them OR connect everything and then put that stuff on top where the connection meets? Just want to be extra sure. This stuff could harm the fish*

Spent extra on extension cords, surge-protecting multisocket, big colander to rinse the sand more effectively.

Biggest news is that I GOT MY TANK BACK!  Tom really knew how to make a beat up acrylic tank shine like new. Really happy with his work. http://www.aquariumrestoration.com/ if you're in SoCal and interested.

Also the guy making my stand sent me an update picture of my stand, good progress. It'll be ready by Sunday.

So my homework for tomorrow will be:

~Go to the pet shop and order the drip trays (11.5" x 11.75" approximately...that's an odd dimension) *could I run the sump without the trays until I get them or is it pointless?* and the check valve. Since I'll be reusing the drain stuff, then that's covered assuming you professionals don't say anything about it . Also, since I have the spray bar stuff all ready to go, practically my return line is ready, just need the check valve.

~Rinse the sand

~If I have time, go to home depot and buy plugs. I removed the pipe with the valve on the side of the sump and I need to plug the old return hole on the tank since I'll have a spray bar, won't need it.


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## shelbynjakesdad (Mar 13, 2013)

I think with the spray bar, the longer the better... as long as your pump flows enough water to get decent flow. You want circulation throughout the entire tank. It will probably take some experimentation with hole size and length to get it right. The good news is that the long straight pieces of PVC are pretty cheap, so not a big deal if you have to re-do the center piece.

Regarding the primer and cement, your first description was correct. Coat the pipe and the fitting then slide it over. Give it adequate time to dry and then really flush it good with water, if it's totally dry and flushed out good with water, I think the risk to the fish is very small. Also, do not cement the long straight piece with the holes, it's good to be able to adjust the angle and makes install and removal much easier. Once it has a coat of paint it should fit plenty tight enough not to come apart from the water pressure.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

I'll go just go by the length of the narrow open slots by the rear of the tank, it'll be like 55"-62". I think it'll look ridiculous if it's too long. I'll start off small for the holes (what the thread recommends to start off with).

Called the pet shop for the dripping trays. He cannot make me any and the OEM stuff would be over $100 he said. Home depot has the plain acrylic...thin or thick. What should I go with? Thick?

Another question, so the dimensions of the square are 11.5" x 11.75" on my sump for the tray. Should I cut a piece EXACTLY of that measurement or just do 11" x 11" or something?


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## Koteckn (May 16, 2012)

I build my own drip tray with 1/8" plexiglas and drilled holes out of it. I think I used 3/16" holes for most of it with 4 1/8" holes in the middle in case my flow was too much for the 3/16" holes. Not positive though. Very cheap and easy to do. My drip tray just sits on top of my bio-ball crate.


















hope this helps!

- H


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

^Thanks.

So it turned out I was missing the plates that go before the waterpump compartment in the sump. Had to cut some acrylic today, what a PITA! I used a coping saw and got it done. Luckily the dripping trays were found. It'll be ABS plastic though, not acrylic. $30 a piece not too bad considering that the thickest acrylic plate home depot offered (1/8") was at $20 a piece. Plus the money spent on tools, my time, drilling and the risk of cracking it. No thanks!

So tomorrow pick up the rest of the stuff I ordered (too much to list but it's filtration related...wallet got raped yet again). Then finally, no more purchasing! Stand comes in on Sunday. Tomorrow I will wash the sump, rinse the bioballs, install the check valve on the return line, and if I have enough energy left, start the spray bar..at least cut the 1.5" pieces that I need to connect the 90 degree elbows. My main priority now is getting the sump 100% ready. After that gets concluded, I'll wash the tank itself inside and out with warm water and dish washing soap in liquid. The soap won't be harmful for the fish right? In either case, I'll make sure to rinse it well enough. After this is done, rinse the sand. Easy. Last but not least, explore the XP4 canister filter and install the UV filter on it. Question, does the UV filter go on the drain line or return line?


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## Koteckn (May 16, 2012)

UV Filter will go on the return line. Make sure you get all of the dish soap out of the tank, one drop of that stuff has been known to kill off an entire tank (happened at the school my buddy teaches at... a kid thought it would be funny and killed off an entire tank of rainbow trout). Another thing you'll want to purchase is a can or two of Krylon Fusion spray paint to paint the back of your tank as well as your return lines that are in the tank. This will take care of the white pipes that tend to be an eye sore down the road.

Looks like you're making great progress and I look forward to seeing some pictures.

- H


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## lilscoots (Mar 13, 2012)

If it were me, I'd rinse with a bleach (plain bleach not a detergent with bleach) solution, not a soap solution...bleach breaks down to harmless things and chlorine with your dechlorinator will remove, is much more effective at killing bacteria, and won't kill your fish if you don't get every bit of it rinsed out. I would never use soap to clean a tank or anything in a tank.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Thanks guys. Wow, that guy who re-conditioned my tank really didn't know much as I thought he did. Detergent soap is out of the question then. I feel very paranoid over these chemicals I'll be introducing, heck...still worried about the PVC primer and cement, but a lot of tanks have PVC piping with that stuff and like shelby said, risk is small. The paint should be fine right?

Plain bleach as in Ajax? Comet? The powder stuff? Just want to be extra sure. Thanks.










As soon as I pick up the last of my parts, I'll be taking a group picture of everything I have to work with.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Or is it the bleach to white up white clothes? Lol. These are the only "Plain" bleaches I can think of.

How about just water + vinegar guys?

Found this info in google:



> Bleach does not clean. It does disinfect. Use warm water and vinegar to clean. Take about 1 gallon hot tap water and mix with about 32 oz of regular vinegar. Pour mixture into tank and use a scrubbing pad (not used with dishes) and scrub lightly on the sides and bottom. The warm vinegar will break the mineral deposits up. It will take off most of the deposits. Rinse real good, No need for bleach but if you want to , just put about a cup (MAKE SURE IT IS REGULAR * CLOROX) in a gallon of water and do the same that you did with the vinegar solution. Rinse real good and let the tank air dry for a couple of days. Any mineral deposits left, just use a single edge razor blade and CAREFULLY scrape off.
> 
> *Clorox breaks down according to them.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

So today I got the drip trays. They were a "tad" bigger. Bummer. The fish shop guy was nice enough to saw off what was needed to make it fit. He claimed that clear life only makes one size drip trays for my sump. Ok I guess. So he cut the edge off a little and told me to super glue the trim on the side so it looks complete. See pic, top trim:










There are little gaps/cracks from the super gluing obviously it isn't perfect now. Not a problem right? The super glue is ok for the water? Also, the holes are 11/64 (drill bit) size and there are 110 holes. That sounds just right, not entirely sure on the hole size 11/64 seems small to me IMO. But this is straight from the manufacturer, surely they know what they're doing.

Also, now the top doesn't sit down all the way down, does it look ok? Take note of the very end, on the corner. Will the water drip quick enough to prevent an over flood? Seriously, these trims!!!










Last but not least, I got two of these fittings to plug two holes each for the the tank and sump. It only came with one seal. I thought it was suppose to be two? One seal for the outside and the other for the inside???










Tomorrow I finally begin cleaning everything up. Tank ~ Just the inside with bleach and warm water and the back with vinegar (too much calcium deposit). Sump ~ Same as tank, bleach with warm water, and try to polish it up on the outside by hand with a simple plastic polisher.

On another note, I think the fish guy sold me a bad UV light bulb...I took it out to see it light up (wanted to see how bright it was out of curiosity) and didn't work, Tried connecting the bulb reversed polarity too and nothing. It makes a rattle noise if I shake it. The coils are still intact, maybe something busted in the inside of the bulb.

Would really appreciate answers for my questions. I know they seem too simple at times, but this project has me pretty nervous. Last thing I want to see is a leak or massacre...fish dying.


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## lilscoots (Mar 13, 2012)

Water + Bleach - the liquid stuff without added detergents to kill anything that may be living in the tank. 
Vinegar + water work to remove calcium deposits.
otherwise I'd just use warm water and a soft cloth or an aquarium scrubber (for acrylic) to clean the tank of dirt that isn't calcium deposits.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Update...wow cleaning everything up really made me feel better. Today I washed the inside of the tank with regular liquid bleach and warm water. While that was drying off I went and started to clean the sump...it was filthy. Then I opened up the water pump and yikes there were grains of carbon in it and in the propeller...seriously, the previous owner of this setup simply didn't give a **** about anything. With a toothbrush and a pad, I scrubbed everything. and now the pump looks very good. I plugged the sump hole and the tank hole with the seal on the bulkhead side (google saves the day once again). I rinsed the bio-balls. Tested the sump with the water hose and it ran nice. That pump is strong! I've never had such a fast pump. It was impressing. I feel like getting another. If I get the same model, both can fit. Kind of messed up leaving the tank to dry without wiping it down because I had some water spots dry off! Spent 20min removing them with a moist cloth.

Other then that...good to go. The stand comes in tomorrow, I gotta go back to the fish shop and return the UV bulb (he sold me a bad one), make the spray bar (cut the 1.5" pieces, decide on the length of the bar itself, fit everything, mark it, glue, wait 30-60min so the stuff dries, run water through it...maybe submerge it to my swimming pool hehe, and paint it to have it ready by Monday), and finally, rinse the sand. Just missing the check valve. I'll be okay running it without one right???? My drain side has a valve, so if something happens, I can just disconnect the water pump and close the valve. Regardless, I'll receive it this upcoming Friday. The tank will be operational regardless with the canister.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Coming along nicely!!

As you noted, when assembling the bulkhead fitting, the gasket goes on the wet side of the tank/sump. Don't overtighten the nut or you risk cracking the plastic fitting. I do hand tight plus a tiny bit with a pair of pliers.

Also, NEVER look directly at a UV bulb when it is lit!!


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## walzon1 (Jun 17, 2013)

Deeda said:


> Coming along nicely!!
> 
> As you noted, when assembling the bulkhead fitting, the gasket goes on the wet side of the tank/sump. Don't overtighten the nut or you risk cracking the plastic fitting. I do hand tight plus a tiny bit with a pair of pliers.
> 
> Also, NEVER look directly at a UV bulb when it is lit!!


+1  I think you will be glad you stuck with the sump, so much easier maintanance, so much better for the fish especially when overstocking due to the high oxygenation.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Heck yes. The sump made this project more exciting. Okay Deeda,hehe. Good thing the bulb was bad to begin with but if the new one works I'll make sure to look indirectly.

Walzon, are you from Southern Cali? If you are, curious...where do you get your fishes at? Everyone down here only like koi and the "other" freshwater fish that are pretty boring to me.


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## lilscoots (Mar 13, 2012)

If your return is into a spraybar, you wouldn't need a check valve as long as the spray bar is at or just below the surface providing a siphon break, If your return is a lot lower than the surface level of the tank, you'd definitely want a check valve.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

So today my sump stank like a wet dog! Turned out to be the bio-balls. I couldn't take it, so I used some bleach to wash the bio-balls and rinsed and rinsed them over. How long would it take the bleach to evaporate? I used about 1 cup, 1/2 on each side compartment. The smell totally went away. I rinsed the sump 2-3 times. It still smells like bleach, but not as much anymore. Prime removes this sort of stuff right? Since bleach is basically chlorine. I have lots of Prime.

I also rinsed the sand. What I used was a colander (fine mesh/tiny holes) and 3 buckets (1 for the dirty sand, 1 to rinse with the colander, 1 for the clean sand). Had to do the process twice for two buckets of sand. Here's a pic of the sand with a good layer of water.



Mocked up the spray bar too. I ended up doing 52" and was happy with that decision. It's in a good position between the drain and return holes. Tomorrow I'll primer/cement the elbows and drill the holes on the PVC pipe (that'll take a while). I hope to have the bar spray canned by tomorrow too.




In other news....got my UV bulb replaced. The owner of store tried to convince me my UV filter was bad...didn't really take that too kindly to be honest, he made a good $200 off me. So I tell him, come on, try another bulb (I personally knew the UV filter was just fine because using a volt meter, I checked if it had power and it was good to go...). I finally convinced him, tried it, and work...it's so bright. I think after I get my check valve from him on Fri, I'll shop elsewhere. His prices aren't too great anyway.

Stand will be coming in tomorrow. The carpenter sends me update pics and it looks gorgeous and his prices are a bargain! (if you guess the price, I'm sure you'll be wrong). Whenever I need a stand or canopy, for sure I'll be calling him back. If you're in SoCal and want a killer deal on a stand or canopy, PM me so I can give you his #.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

lilscoots said:


> If your return is into a spraybar, you wouldn't need a check valve as long as the spray bar is at or just below the surface providing a siphon break, If your return is a lot lower than the surface level of the tank, you'd definitely want a check valve.


Didn't see your post, sorry. I'm following the tutorial here: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=257030

Check out my mock up pics too. How does it look? I already paid for it anyway so I don't know.


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## lilscoots (Mar 13, 2012)

A check valve won't hurt you in anyway it's just not a necessity if you have a siphon break at the surface which the spray bars holes provide. I've always relied on siphon breaks (a hole in the return just below the water surface) instead of check valves because I'm too cheep to buy a check valve 

It looks good. have fun drilling holes.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Finished the spray bar. It looks great. I had the water hose running in it for 30min and I submerged it into my pool for another 30min and it still _slightly _smells like PVC primer/cement. Is it safe to use? I still have to paint it regardless.

Stand comes in tomorrow, the guy hasn't finished the door handles and some other thing. I don't really care because I still haven't had time to make space for the new stand in my room. Gotta move stuff around maybe later.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Almost there. The spray bar is done rinsing, kind of paranoid over the PVC primer and cement since it smells SO toxic. Is rinsing it for like, I don't know, 45min safe enough for the fish? I ask because I still have to primer/cement some piping for the drain. And I don't feel like rinsing it up for hours. I rinsed the spray bar for 4hrs straight now (I'm using my swimming pool. Water pump submerged and the water is just recirculating back to the pool). Please let me know...important.

It looks wonderful, except for the slight crooked sections  :



Tomorrow I'll paint it.

Also I may have a problem with the drain line from the tank. The previous owner of this set up had it like this....all it does is slip in. It feels like it goes pretty deep (that's what she said haha..sorry had to!)

Will I be ok? Or should I try cementing it or something? I'm opening to suggestions.





Other then that. I think I'm good to go! Stand tomorrow, and the space for the stand and tank is ready. I plan on setting it up with the canister until I get the spray bar painted and cured. Luckily the drain line has a valve on the sump side, I'll close it so the sump is non-operational until the spray bar is ready. It's just that drain line worry. Worst case scenario, primer/cement it?


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Note: the above pic of the spray bar is my water pump doing the work! Not the water hose . Thought I should throw that in there.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Bump. Need help.


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## lilscoots (Mar 13, 2012)

That blue looks like he had glued it on the "vacuum hose". If it were me I'd try it and see if it leaks...it if does you could try cementing it in place or you could get a new bulkhead and hose. I never liked that system, My drains are hard line pvc, every connection is cemented except where a 90 attaches to a small stub cemented into the bulkhead, and the down pipe into my sump at another 90. The return lines are soft hoses hose clamped around a pvc stub cemented into the bulkhead. This way I can reuse the bulkheads if I ever have to take them out. I never flushed my pipes after cementing. I'm not sure what the recomendations are on the bottle of cement, but pvc is used for drinking water so I can't imagine it being toxic after proper cure time.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Thanks! I will try it as it is with some tephon tape. Thanks for sharing the pvc cement rinse. I'm not gonna worry. The pet shop guy told me to put my filter sponge media on the driping tray? Is it underneath?


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Tank is running but with the canister filter. Sump tomorrow. What's with the cloudiness of the sand though? I rinsed it pretty **** good, what gives? How long does this cloudiness last?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Give it a day or two.


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## walzon1 (Jun 17, 2013)

Just guess what it would look like if you didn't rinse it :lol: I got lazy on my tank and just tossed the sand in, I was changing my filter floss everyday for the next week.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Yeah it would look muddy brown!

Okay so right now it's still cloudy but a different cloudy not from the sand (the sand was brown cloudy) now it's like clear cloudy. I did put Prime, Api's quick start and seachem's Clarify last night.

Going to run the sump today later after I put some of my 55gal's water from the tank itself and the canister.

I plan on putting in some 20 small goldfish by tomorrow too. They'll be my "lab rats".


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

All that stuff above are bubbles.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Also, on another note, I find it SO strange that my china made Jebo is more quiet then the Rena XP4 (API XL). Everywhere online claims how quiet the XP4 is...it's not that quiet compared to the "inferior" brand which is Jebo.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

I've noticed with my XP2 that if the water level in the canister isn't high enough, it can be a bit loud. Level with the bottom of the motor housing should be fine.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

PVC solvent cement can vary in how long the off-gassing and smell remain depending on the brand/product used. I like to wait 24 hours after cementing the fittings and then rinse the connections in tap water. There still may be a bit of odor but it usually dissipates after water has been run through it for a while.

BTW, nice job on the spraybar! It does appear that you drilled one of the holes at a bit of an angle but you could probably enlarge it slightly to get it perfect.

I do recommend either replacing the bulkhead fitting on the back of the tank or using lilscoots suggestion to solvent weld a stub of PVC pipe into the BHF and clamp the sump hose onto the pipe stub with a worm clamp. There is no real water pressure exiting the BHF but the weight of the water in the hose may pull the fitting out of the BHF. Additionally, if you used a 90 fitting, you could move the tank closer to the wall.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

GTZ said:


> I've noticed with my XP2 that if the water level in the canister isn't high enough, it can be a bit loud. Level with the bottom of the motor housing should be fine.


My XP4 is humming louder then the Jebo (model: 839..pos if you read reviews) and I could hear water dripping. I followed the instructions. It's pumping water strong, no air in the system either. I guess it's louder because it's higher output?



Deeda said:


> PVC solvent cement can vary in how long the off-gassing and smell remain depending on the brand/product used. I like to wait 24 hours after cementing the fittings and then rinse the connections in tap water. There still may be a bit of odor but it usually dissipates after water has been run through it for a while.
> 
> BTW, nice job on the spraybar! It does appear that you drilled one of the holes at a bit of an angle but you could probably enlarge it slightly to get it perfect.
> 
> I do recommend either replacing the bulkhead fitting on the back of the tank or using lilscoots suggestion to solvent weld a stub of PVC pipe into the BHF and clamp the sump hose onto the pipe stub with a worm clamp. There is no real water pressure exiting the BHF but the weight of the water in the hose may pull the fitting out of the BHF. Additionally, if you used a 90 fitting, you could move the tank closer to the wall.


Yeah that sounds reasonable waiting at least 24hrs, but I've read it dries up after 30min - 1 hour? Running it on the tank could work as rinsing it I guess, hosing it down wouldn't hurt either though. I don't plan on transferring my cichlids until late next week maybe. Depending on the water conditions. I'll take out my chemical kit really soon.

Thanks! Yeah I'll revise it maybe...lol

Well I have bad news. The WHOLE drain line up to the sump's plate has to be replaced. I totally messed up and here's why. Remember how the drain line just slips in? Well it leaked, then I assumed it was from that actual connection, so I glued it. It turned out to be the frikken bulk head fitting, and it was a pain in the a**to remove. I had to destroy the plastic nut or whatever it's called since the threading was warped. Upon removal I noticed what the problem was. The rubber seal was toasted, and ripped. Had I replaced that bulk head fitting, I'd have a running sump right now. I honestly didn't like that drain line set up anyway, just the valve. That valve could be useful for an emergency. The most important part is that the XP4 canister is running strong, the sand is in, the water is conditioned (Prime and API's Quick Start, I put some of my 55GAL's water). Water is looking more clear too, so I'm on schedule regardless.

What do you guys recommend for the drain line? Just go full PVC? My only concern is the actual connection to the sump's plates. The black pieces (with threading) and down, refer to pic. I doubt home depot sells that stuff. Will only a fish shop sell those fittings???


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## Koteckn (May 16, 2012)

From this point on, I wouldn't use any type of water clarify product. Your water will eventually be crystal clear after the tank is cycled and normal w/c's are completed. If you use a clarify product , you may not know when your tank is ready for fish. Just my two cents.

- h


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

TCool774 said:


> What do you guys recommend for the drain line? Just go full PVC? My only concern is the actual connection to the sump's plates. The black pieces (with threading) and down, refer to pic. I doubt home depot sells that stuff. Will only a fish shop sell those fittings???


I would do PVC from the aquarium bulkhead fitting to a ball valve that is accessible from the inside of the stand, just below the bottom of the aquarium, if that is possible. Then do flexible hose to the sump connections. This way you can close the ball valve to service the sump without getting water everywhere.

I have never seen H.D. sell aquarium style BHF's. I have purchase BHF's from Jehmco and similar aquarium product places. Or check the Retailer Reviews or Vendors sections to see recommendations.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Got all the parts needed to make a new drain line. It's going to be go 1.5" all the way until the "T" slip. It'll be reduced to 1" on both sides (sump's plate holes are 1" unfortunately). I would love to do flexible hose for the ends there for the plates, but where the heck can I find such a short hose like that? I can cut one up, but how about the tips needed to slip in PVC?

Will be using a union fitting too . That way I don't have to destroy my drain line if I have to move the tank in the future. It'll be located just above the stand.

Also this drain line dilemma forced me to move my tank more away from the wall (1", can you believe that?) I had to empty out the water . I won't fill it up until the sump is good to go. Home depot didn't have PVC cutters for 1.5" that was some BS, sorry. I hate sawing, but I'm going to have to try.

This has been quite an experience. The sump alone is most of it! Tomorrow I will begin measuring everything. Work my way from the sump up to the drain port on the tank.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Everyone, the only reason I upgraded was because my Tanzania (star sapphire) of 7 years died. He made me realize my 55gal isn't cutting it for the kind of fish that I have a passion for. So, if you know of anyone or anywhere that sells these fish, please tell me. Kind of want my 180 to get stabled first though lol. But yeah...


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Hey guys, so the drain goes down then turns right straight into the sump plates, the T fitting is at an angle so gravity assists the water flow. My concern is the connection before that, it's basically a right angle (90 degree. Will I be ok? Water will flow anyway.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Modified the design a bit. I had the sump on the opposite side of the drain, pretty dumb I figured (don't blame me, I was following the old set up subconsciously), so the sump is now below the drain side of the tank for better and faster flow (less PVC mess too). Anyway I might have a problem, I'm wondering if I'll be okay...so I had to slip in a pipe to a 90 degree elbow. I put lots of primer and glue on both as extra insurance, upon connecting them together, I only managed to slide the pipe in 1/2", usually I can go the full 3/4-1", I tried pulling it out but it was already stuck. I put glue on the outside border too. Think I'll be fine? The pipe isn't moving anywhere, and the glue I put on the outside dried up. In any case, is there a patch kit or something if it does leak? Re-doing all that isn't happening. It's hard work to get all the exact measurements and angles.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Once the solvent sets, the joint is permanent. Adding additional solvent on the outside of the joint will also seal any pinhole leaks. If you are still concerned about possible leaks AND that portion of the piping is removable, you could do a pressure test using compressed air. You would only need about 5 PSI to verify if there was a leak.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Deeda said:


> Once the solvent sets, the joint is permanent. Adding additional solvent on the outside of the joint will also seal any pinhole leaks. If you are still concerned about possible leaks AND that portion of the piping is removable, you could do a pressure test using compressed air. You would only need about 5 PSI to verify if there was a leak.


Thanks for the info. This has me very worried. If the joint is bad I'll have to destroy the brand new bulkhead. LUCKILY I installed a union. So the entire system doesn't go bad.

I did manage to push it inside 1/2" like I said, think I'll be ok?


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Yes, it should be just fine. Sometimes when I'm assembling the PVC fittings I have mis-measured the dimension I need so I just don't fully seat the pipe into the joint and have not experienced any leaks.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Triumph! no leaks on any joint. I have a problem with the drain hole though. I can't fill the tank up all the way without over filling the sump, so I can cover the whole bulkhead's diameter. So the drain's flow is half the diameter of the bulkhead and it's making a "burpy" noise, it's pretty annoying. What should I do? I was thinking maybe putting a 90 degree elbow or installing a cap with a smaller hole.

I was told to fill the tank until the sump was 2/3 full then turn on the water pump. I was curious, so I filled up the tank to try to cover the whole bulkhead hole and the sump was overfilling, luckily I had that valve installed.....that was a close call.

I don't mind the drip plate water flow, it's pretty nice actually, but that burpy noise coming from the bulkhead fitting is lame.


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

Is there an overflow box, or is the bulkhead just open to the tank?

Step 1: If there is an overflow box fill the tank until the water just starts to overflow into the box. If no box start with step 2.

Step 2: fill the box until the water level is just starting to enter the bulkhead.

Step 3: fill the sump until the water level in the sump is about two or three inches above your return pump intake.

Step 4: turn on the return pump and be ready to add water to the sump if the level gets too close to the pump intake.

After a few seconds things should balance out and water in the sump and tank will remain constant. If the water level in the tank is still too low you probably don't have an overflow box and you will need to add a fitting inside the tank, probably a 90, to raise the drain.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

b3w4r3 said:


> Is there an overflow box, or is the bulkhead just open to the tank?
> 
> Step 1: If there is an overflow box fill the tank until the water just starts to overflow into the box. If no box start with step 2.
> 
> ...


Just a bulkhead open to the tank on the upper left hand corner. Sump is 36"x 12.5" x 18" and is located below the drain side. I have no idea what an overflow box is.

Yeah the water level in the tank is pretty low to cover the whole bulkhead diameter. Add a 90 degree elbow???


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

Yes you probably will need to add a piece of straight pipe to the bulkhead then attach the 90 to that. If it's still too low another pipe can be added to the 90. You can also look as some durso stand pipes if you need to reduce noise more (just google durso stand pipe).

An overflow box is typically a black box with U shaped grooves at the top that sits inside the tank. Chances are that your tank had one but it was removed. They control the water level in the tank by only allowing the water to drop as low as the grooves are. You don't "need" one but most drilled tanks have one of some sort.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Well here's the thing, the bulkhead has threading inside. I have a feeling something gets added there for this kind of situation.

I saw an overflow box at the pet shop today, not an option! They're huge. Although, I'm under the impression there are different designs. You said it goes in the tank, but the one in the store hangs on the back of the tank....

I need something that can work for me inside the tank. Does the durso pipe screw on the bulkhead? I have seen a few pics and I don't see how it'll work with the bulkhead.

I have a nanocube 24g, I remember a plate went on the drain hole. I'm sure that's an overflow box, no? I tried using it for my 180, it's helping a little. Still hearing the burpy noise.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

If the BHF has internal threads, you will just need to use a threaded pipe stub or a threaded 90 elbow.


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

You can look on glassholes.com, they may have an overflow that will fit your situation but it will probably require drilling another drain hole. The threads in the bulkhead are just standard pvc tapered threads. There are all kinds of pvc fittings that will screw in there. You need to use teflon tape on the threads of whatever you try to screw in, and don't go too tight. Because the threads taper and you can crack the bulkhead if the fitting is over tightened.

Depending on how low your bulkhead hole is drilled you may be able to add a 90 threaded on one end to the bulkhead with the open end facing up. Then create a durso drain on top of that with a T fitting and another 90 facing down. People claim these style drains are quiet, but I never had a need for one. If the drain is too high for that to work you can start with the 90 pointing down, then run pipe in a U shape coming back up to the height you need.

Got a picture of how you have it now?


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Deeda said:


> If the BHF has internal threads, you will just need to use a threaded pipe stub or a threaded 90 elbow.





b3w4r3 said:


> You can look on glassholes.com, they may have an overflow that will fit your situation but it will probably require drilling another drain hole. The threads in the bulkhead are just standard pvc tapered threads. There are all kinds of pvc fittings that will screw in there. You need to use teflon tape on the threads of whatever you try to screw in, and don't go too tight. Because the threads taper and you can crack the bulkhead if the fitting is over tightened.
> 
> Depending on how low your bulkhead hole is drilled you may be able to add a 90 threaded on one end to the bulkhead with the open end facing up. Then create a durso drain on top of that with a T fitting and another 90 facing down. People claim these style drains are quiet, but I never had a need for one. If the drain is too high for that to work you can start with the 90 pointing down, then run pipe in a U shape coming back up to the height you need.
> 
> Got a picture of how you have it now?


I just went to home depot and bought a threaded 90 elbow. I can't point it up because it doesn't fit, if I point it down, it just further accelerates the drain flow causing the sump to overflow, so far sideways has been working for me, still makes a funky noise though.

:-? :-? What is the best option? I want the drain to be totally silent without complicating things with my setup. A simple overflow box like the nanocube style would be perfect or anything effective that screws on the BHF.

Here are pics:

Drain BHF as it is. It makes an annoying burping noise.


PVC fittings I just bought at home depot.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Would a strainer work?


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

A strainer will help keep the fish from getting sucked through but likely won't make it quiet. With the 90 sideways you can still build a durso off of it. You would need to connect a T fitting to the 90 you have with the open end of the T facing up to be the air intake (they use a plug with a drilled hole), then another 90 at the other end of the T facing down. I'm not sure you will ever get it totally silent though.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

So my only options are leaving the 90 degree sideways, make a durso off it although, I'm not entirely sure if a T fitting would actually fit, the BHF is too high, the T could hit the top of the tank and the spray bar is right next to it, Or an internal overflow box?

Also, what's the deal with the 'air intake'. It needs it to relieve excess pressure? Is that what is causing the drain to flow so fast to the sump? What if I drilled a hole (what size bit anyhow?) and pointed the 90 elbow downward?


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

A hole in the 90 could work, you would have to try different sizes. The hole will prevent the 90 from siphoning water below the bottom of the BHF. How much water are you running in the sump? The operating water level in the sump should be just below the bottom of the bio balls.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

b3w4r3 said:


> A hole in the 90 could work, you would have to try different sizes. The hole will prevent the 90 from siphoning water below the bottom of the BHF. How much water are you running in the sump? The operating water level in the sump should be just below the bottom of the bio balls.


So should I try with a 1/8 bit first? I bought an extra set of the PVC I posted in the pic (don't ask why haha).

Here are the pics of everything now. I haven't touched it since.


Sump water level not low? Right side isn't getting as much flow as the left side either...


Water level of the tank right now


The temporarily fix...at least no more gurgling/burp noise for now. Looks pretty ghetto though  I want to fix it the proper way!


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Ok so with the extra set of those fittings, I drilled two 1/4" holes on top and pointed the elbow downward. It doesn't gurgle as loud vs. with nothing, but the elbow sideways is quieter. Still pretty interested on a internal overflow box (like the nanocube one







)

Because it seems my choices are: the PVC elbow with the mesh screen I put, durso pipe (if possible), or an internal overflow box.

Also I have a couple concerns...obviously I'm new to the sump:

1) In an event of a power outage, wouldn't the sump overfill? I tested it earlier. I turned off the pump and it was like 1" - 1.5" away from overfilling....that's pretty scary to think about. I have a valve, but what if I'm not home???

2) With a sump set up, it's impossible to fill the tank 100% all the way up without overfilling the sump right? Because there's like a 1" gap on top of the tank. Not that I want it to be 100% filled, just curious . It's pretty crazy how the drain needs air to relieve pressure. Earlier when I tried the elbow pointed downward (without the holes), I put my fingers and wow, it creates a strong vacuum.

3) How soon does the drain and the sump reach absolute equilibrium?


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

The water level in your sump is too high. The bio balls should be totally out of the water. At most you could have an inch or two in the water to allow for evaporation if needed, but it's best to have the water line completely below them. With the water level lowered you won't have to worry about the sump overflowing if the power goes off.

The benefit of an overflow box is that the part inside the tank is slotted and can be adjusted up and down to control the water level in the tank. I think your best solution is to purchase a hang on the back style overflow box, and just plug the bulkhead you have now. The new overflow box should have 2 drains so you can hook one to each side of the sump, and get rid of that T that feeds the bio section. A HOB overflow will only work if the lip on your tank is narrow enough. In the case that it won't work you could look at glassholes.com. They have overflow boxes that drain through the back of the tank, and come with hole saws.

The water level in the tank and sump should balance in less than a minute, and remain constant. The sump level will drop some over time due to evaporation, but the tank level will remain the same.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Unfortunately a hang behind the tank overflow box doesn't fit, and I have my TV right behind the tank so I don't feel comfortable with that. Why wouldn't an overflow box inside the tank be a good move? (like the pic I posted). I can't do anything complicating as of now, vacation is almost over.

How do I have the water below the bioballs without having the tank's water decreased any further (gravity)? Like I said, as it is right now, there's a good 1 inch gap, I think it looks perfect the canopy should cover that gap once it's done.


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

Well that's why I suggested glassholes.com, they have overflows like that. If you can find something else that will work give it a try. Normally with a drilled tank the overflow box goes all the way to the bottom of the tank. It also has to be big enough to handle your flow rate, you cant just stick one the size you posted and expect it to work on your 180 gallon tank. Again though you don't have to use one at all.

As far as lowering the water in the sump it's easy, just remove some water from the system. The tank water level is going to remain constant once the pump is running regardless of the water level in the sump. Adding water to the tank will raise the water in the sump, and removing water from the tank will lower the water level in the sump. The tank water level won't change.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Success! I shorten the elbow and cut underneath to use the "T fitting" concept explained earlier. No more noise. I wrapped some mesh screen around, nothing is getting through there.. Water in sump is now less than one inch above the white plates. What if a fish dies or food gets trapped on the drain though (against the mesh screen). I doubt it though, the bottom side is pretty flushed. Whatever gets on there won't be there for a long time. What do you think? Going to paint it black one day. Maybe...lol




Vent


Drain side


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

Looks good! Glad you got it straightened out.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Thanks! So I did a chemical test today. All results are 0 and pH is 8.2, good right? It's strange though, ok bare with me. Remember how I put API's quick start last wednesday the 7th, my 55G's tank water, all good right? Then the drain line dilemma happened. I had to empty out the tank of the water to move it to make space for the new PVC drain line, but I did leave a good 1 inch layer of water above the substrate. Could've the bacteria still have survived? The water smells fishy (good sign), the gold fish are doing good other than a good 3-4 of them getting sucked in the drain on either the one I made OR the canister's intake. Those **** goldfish like to hang out near the drain area. :roll: I've been feeding them for 2 days now. I'm wondering if it's a good idea to do the transfer now, or should I wait at least until the weekend? Should I add more quick start?


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

The tank is not cycled if you have a nitrate reading of zero. Either add the bottled bacteria product or do the fishless cycle procedure. You will need to monitor via the test results.

I am concerned with your modification to the BHF drain. While it is working to prevent fish from being 'sucked' into the sump and it has reduced the gurgling noise, you are already experiencing problems with the gold fish getting stuck or sucked against the drain opening, unless I am misunderstanding your post.
If that is the case, you will need to DIY a larger screened 'box' around the screened elbow you made to prevent your 'good' fish from getting stuck to the drain and potentially blocking the flow of water to the sump.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Deeda said:


> The tank is not cycled if you have a nitrate reading of zero. Either add the bottled bacteria product or do the fishless cycle procedure. You will need to monitor via the test results.
> 
> I am concerned with your modification to the BHF drain. While it is working to prevent fish from being 'sucked' into the sump and it has reduced the gurgling noise, you are already experiencing problems with the gold fish getting stuck or sucked against the drain opening, unless I am misunderstanding your post.
> If that is the case, you will need to DIY a larger screened 'box' around the screened elbow you made to prevent your 'good' fish from getting stuck to the drain and potentially blocking the flow of water to the sump.


Yes that makes sense over the nitrate being 0, I thought so. I guess I'm going to have to buy another quick start.

The goldfish are also getting sucked by the XP4 canister's intake port. They seem pretty weak and unhealthy. The water is free of chlorine and regardless of nitrate being 0, the killer factors (ammonia and nitrite) are 0 too as mentioned. I've caught 2 dying randomly, weird. I was thinking about redoing the PVC for the drain and use a real T fitting and shortening it (street style; to slip it) and put a strainer on. These idiot goldfish keep swimming right next to the drain!!!

At least my whole system is in order . All I need now is patience and keep check on the water.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Modified T fitting installed. I bought a better mesh too, aluminum. The other was fiberglass or vinyl. I didn't mesh up the vent side because it's SO close to the tank's topside and there's no way nothing is getting up there, only if it overfills.. My water level decreased in the tank though, by 1/2". I wonder what's too low? There is a 1 & 1/2" gap on the top now. I wonder if the canopy will sit low enough...thoughts anyone???

Fresh bottle of quick start in too. Now to wait a week :\.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Pics:




Here's the weird part, with the old PVC fitting (last one I did), my water level gap was exactly 1". Doing this T decreased it to 1" and 1/2"...


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

Water level in the sump looks better now. The water level in the tank is subject to how much the fitting you are using can flow. With a more restricted opening the water level will rise increasing water pressure on the fitting causing it to flow faster. This new fitting probably has more open area, or it could even be that the aluminum screen is less restrictive so the water doesn't need the same pressure to flow at the same rate as your return pump.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Oh ok. But is that 1.5" gap within the normal range? I felt 1" was perfect. I already told the canopy guy to make it so it covers that gap. I would hate to see that gap all the time.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Oh another thing, the new design is better right? It's on the background in the last pic.


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## TCool774 (Jul 23, 2013)

Well I went to home depot yet again and bought a 1 " and 1/4" T, it increased the water level exactly that measurement. I can live with a 1" 1/4" gap, so I painted the fittings black. I'll install it tomorrow afternoon. Planning on further curing it with the oven too. I used the same paint used for the spray bar. Looks less bulky in the tank compared to the 1" 1/2".


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