# my wife wants angel fish.....



## gregga (Jul 30, 2002)

Wife tells me recently she wants to try something different in our 125g show tank....:confused3:....She wants angel fish...So here is what she came up with:

angel's (14-16 juveniles, mix of black and calico)
blue rams (6, for color and activity)
school of cory's (8-10, panda variety for bottom of tank)
school of large cardinals (10-20) (for color, assuming neons are too small)
group of upper water column schooling fish such as rainbows, silver dollars or such......
I would also love to add a school of 6-8 clown loaches as well. Just not sure if it's overkill.

Tons of lace rock and tall plants, both live and fake. Sunstrate is a black and white sand mix. Angels are new territory for me. Any feedback or advice is greatly appreciated.


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## Cichlidman14 (Jul 17, 2013)

14-16 angels is quite a lot even in a big tank. One they form pairs havoc is going to break lose, the rams are perfectly fine just watch out for territorial issues. Clown loaches yes they're pretty but plan to re-home them in a year or two because they'll grow to 1 ft. or more. Instead of cardinals which can be eaten by the angels black neons or rummynose tetras would be good. The cories should be fine but due to the rams they might have some territorial issues. I would go with hatchet fish for a nice surface activity, marbles look really good just watch out they can be jumpers.

New stocking:
6-8 angels or 3-4 breeding pairs
8-10 rummynose tetras
6-8 panda cories
6 rams(german blue, german blue long finned, angel rams, or gold rams) 3 pairs
6-8 marbled or silver hatchetfish


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

I'd go with bolivian rams instead of blues for the temp differences.

And even cardinals could be come snacks of an ambitious angel, though most will be too lazy. It's a risk, I'd go with a bigger tetra myself.


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## gregga (Jul 30, 2002)

there are many tetra varieties out there....which ones do you recommend?


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Well that comes down to personal taste really. I'm fond of lemons and four eye phantoms myself. But any of the higher body tetras would work like diamonds, colombians, bleeding hearts, lemons ect. Basically stay away from cardinals and anything smaller. The rummynose *Cichlidman* mentioned are another good choice as well.


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## MonteSS (Dec 8, 2008)

Yes that many mature Angels will be a prob eventualy. You can start with that but be prepared to remove some.

I would skip the hatchets or upper water fish and instead get 50 of any large bodied tetra you like. The Petsmart $1 tetra sale is best for this buy. Nothing like a large school of tetras in a 125

Go Bolivian rams over GBR. Bolivians are much hardier fish and more interesting IMO.

Cories sound good.

No Clowns. As said they get too large.

You can add some BN plecos

....Bill


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## Tomagorn (Apr 5, 2013)

Just a caution on the use of big-bodied tetras: I have had problems with black skirt tetras and their "glow" counterparts harassing juvenile angels...enough that the angels died. You could go with some of the SA live bearers (guppies, mollies, etc.) instead of tetras.

Also, angels seem to like some hiding places in the upper half of the aquarium where they prefer to hang out.

You don't have any algae eaters in your list. Plecos are OK, but a bit common. What about whiptails?

Looking forward to see what you come up with. Please post pictures when you get it set up.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Yeah, black skirts are notorious fin nippers, as are silvertips and sepraes.


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## Pseudeotropheus BB (Jan 24, 2013)

A tank that size will definitely allow your Angels to grow to their maximum size so as previously stated I would keep away from any of the smaller Tetras. My recommendation would be to add 50 Rummy Nose Tetras along with a 12-15 of one of the following: Congo Tetra, Emperor Tetra or White Fin Tetra (Hy 511).


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I'd say black skirts are a pretty mean tetra. Remind me of Ameca splendens.

You have got great advice, should be a really nice tank. A large school of one type looks really good.


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## gregga (Jul 30, 2002)

thanks everyone...will post pics when it's converted


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## Dexter. (Oct 23, 2012)

Clown loaches reaching full size of a foot or more in a year? Most ridiculous thing I've ever read. I've had four in a 75 for probably almost a year and they're 4" long MAX right now. My aunt has had 3 of them for TEN years...yes, I said 10...the number that comes after 9. None of them are larger than 6". Fish will get as big they can with the amount of space they have to grow. If you've seen a fish reach full size in a year, especially when you're talking about a fish that as a juvenile is usually bought around 2" or so long to over 12" in a year..someone's putting fishy growth hormones in the food.

Clown loaches are awesome fish, I love mine. Extremely active and expect a pretty clean tank bottom.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Dexter. said:


> Clown loaches reaching full size of a foot or more in a year? Most ridiculous thing I've ever read. I've had four in a 75 for probably almost a year and they're 4" long MAX right now. My aunt has had 3 of them for TEN years...yes, I said 10...the number that comes after 9. None of them are larger than 6". Fish will get as big they can with the amount of space they have to grow. If you've seen a fish reach full size in a year, especially when you're talking about a fish that as a juvenile is usually bought around 2" or so long to over 12" in a year..someone's putting fishy growth hormones in the food.
> 
> Clown loaches are awesome fish, I love mine. Extremely active and expect a pretty clean tank bottom.


While it is true that you can stunt fish, its not true that fish only grow to the size their tank allows. I'm not sure what the growth rate of a clown loach is, but I have seen some big ones. Sounds like you and your aunt are skipping out on water changes.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

I have to agree with ahud here. The rate of growth is less related to the actual tank size than to the amount of food and the cleanliness of the water. You can reduce the optimal amount of food by 70% (from research in aquaculture) and still have some growth, although it will be no where near what you would have with full feeding. In order to maximize the potential provided by the food, the water needs to be kept very clean. So, more food, equals more maintenance. You only have to look at growth rates in commercial fish farms to see how quickly well fed fish in clean water can grow.


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## gregga (Jul 30, 2002)

Will post pics in the next few days. For now, here is what she chose for the 125g to start

14 juvenile angels... 8 black/8 calico

18 corydora melini

school of 50 tetras divided
26 colossal cardinals
12 harlequin rasbororas
12 emperors

6 gorgeous blue rams...she was not negotiating here

3 albino bristlenose plecos


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Keep in mind those blue rams require warmer water. One of the downsides of going with them.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

If the blue rams are a must, I'd go discus instead of angels.

If she's set on angels, show her the much prettier bolivian rams.


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## Tomagorn (Apr 5, 2013)

Your wife has good taste. Will be fun to see the pix.


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## Cichlidman14 (Jul 17, 2013)

Se can't wait to see that tank is it planted?


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## gregga (Jul 30, 2002)

Tank had both live and fake pllants

Yeah, the blue rams were non negotiable.....and I had no interest in doing discus


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Hmmmmm ... what about Geophagus sp. Tapajos 'orangeheads' then?


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## gregga (Jul 30, 2002)

Love tapajos, but like I mentioned, she was non negotiable on the blue rams


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

I meant instead of the angels, trying to think of other cichlids that prefer that elevated heat blue rams need.


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## gregga (Jul 30, 2002)

I gotchya....this whole thing started b/c she wanted angels. I think we are gonna go with the current stock plan and see how it works..I'm thinking we can find a suitable, stable temp for everyone


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Heh, you should have a warm welcome into the world of blue rams then. I would skew the temp in their favor. I'm glad my girl hates the whole fishkeeping scene lol.


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## Tomagorn (Apr 5, 2013)

Are you planning to aerate? All the species on your list are more likely to tolerate blue ram temps if there is plenty of oxygen. This is particularly true for the bottom dwellers.


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## gregga (Jul 30, 2002)

Tank has 2 aquaclear 110's, a large hydro sponge and a large air wand. In addition I run a magnum 350 on the tank a few times a week as a polisher and to add water movement.


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## Dexter. (Oct 23, 2012)

ahud said:


> While it is true that you can stunt fish, its not true that fish only grow to the size their tank allows. I'm not sure what the growth rate of a clown loach is, but I have seen some big ones. Sounds like you and your aunt are skipping out on water changes.


Sorry, didn't mean to make that seem like a concrete fact. I understand at some point they'll get big, but not in a year. My water is changed as regularly as I can do it every week, and while I can't speak for my aunt I can't imagine her's isn't changed pretty regularly either. I can't even tell you how long they've been keeping fish&#8230;they own their own vet practice, pretty sure they know what they're doing.



BillD said:


> I have to agree with ahud here. The rate of growth is less related to the actual tank size than to the amount of food and the cleanliness of the water. You can reduce the optimal amount of food by 70% (from research in aquaculture) and still have some growth, although it will be no where near what you would have with full feeding. In order to maximize the potential provided by the food, the water needs to be kept very clean. So, more food, equals more maintenance. You only have to look at growth rates in commercial fish farms to see how quickly well fed fish in clean water can grow.


Trust me I feed plenty, I know. I have like 32 in my tank, they need to eat. The loaches have grown a good bit since I bought them, but I still can't imagine what you'd be doing to have a juvenile fish reach a full size of 12" or more in a year. I was just a little taken back by that comment, that's all. Not trying to argue over who's fish bro faster or who's water is cleaner. Just seemed a bit ridiculous.

OP, post some pictures of the setup&#8230;like seeing others angel tanks :fish:


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Dexter. said:


> ahud said:
> 
> 
> > While it is true that you can stunt fish, its not true that fish only grow to the size their tank allows. I'm not sure what the growth rate of a clown loach is, but I have seen some big ones. Sounds like you and your aunt are skipping out on water changes.
> ...


It's surprisingly easy to stunt fish. Lack of water changes are usually the cause because feeding is the fun part. I'm not much of a poor fish kind of guy, but if you honestly have 32 clown loaches in a tank then that is why they are not growing. Crowded fish just do not grow well, which is why growing out and selling fry tanks so much tank space.


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## gregga (Jul 30, 2002)

We're still gonna add a host of plants and possibly a few more fish, but for now:

Inhabitants:
14 JUVENILE angels... 7 black/7 calico
14 corydora melini
30 colossal cardinal (1.5-1.75) tetras
20 harlequin rasboras
6 gorgeous blue rams...
3 albino bristlenose pleco
6 plants (3 live, 3 fake)


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## Dexter. (Oct 23, 2012)

ahud said:


> It's surprisingly easy to stunt fish. Lack of water changes are usually the cause because feeding is the fun part. I'm not much of a poor fish kind of guy, but if you honestly have 32 clown loaches in a tank then that is why they are not growing. Crowded fish just do not grow well, which is why growing out and selling fry tanks so much tank space.


Ugh, the wording! I meant to type "fish" after the 32. Not 32 clown loaches, fish in total haha.

Tank looks good OP :thumb:


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## Pseudeotropheus BB (Jan 24, 2013)

gregga said:


> We're still gonna add a host of plants and possibly a few more fish, but for now:
> 
> Inhabitants:
> 14 JUVENILE angels... 7 black/7 calico
> ...


Keep in mind that Cardinal Tetras are just a sensitive to water parameters/conditions as German Blues. I will highlight what I believe are the four most important ingredients in maintaining Cardinals . As with Blue Rams pristine water quality is critical. There should never be signs of ammonia or nitrites and nitrates should be kept at 10ppm and never exceed 20ppm or there is potential for issues, this is critical. More than likely your Cardinals were wild caught and this brings up additional concerns. In their natural habitat you will never find Cardinals in water with a PH above 6.5. Cardinals in the wild rarely see water temperatures above 79 and usually are found in temps between 73-77 so keeping them (especially wild caught) in 82 degree water could be an issue. Cardinals need a heavily planted (live) tank to flourish and should contain shaded areas. I am in know way trying to scare you off I just thought it was important that you have as much information as possible to successfully keep this beautiful fish since its much more delicate than your average tetra.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Do you have a reference for the cardinals temps in the wild? They are usually the tetra of choice for the elevated temps that discus and blue rams require. I've always seen them recommended at the 80F+ range, it was neons that needed the cooler waters.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Actually, my American Cichlids 1: Dwarf Cichlids by Linke and Staeck lists _Dicrossus filamentosus_ being found in two different collection sites with cardinals, at temps of 86F and 87.8F.


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## Pseudeotropheus BB (Jan 24, 2013)

dwarfpike said:


> Do you have a reference for the cardinals temps in the wild? They are usually the tetra of choice for the elevated temps that discus and blue rams require. I've always seen them recommended at the 80F+ range, it was neons that needed the cooler waters.


Here are just a couple of the more knowledgeable publications/resources available. Both provide identical information when it comes to wild caught fish. My personal experience with these fish is cooler is better maintaining 77degree water. The aquatic experts article expands upon Ivans' (TFH) article with some beautiful photography.

http://www.tfhmagazine.com/details/arti ... abitat.htm

http://www.aquatic-experts.com/Cardinal ... TICLE.html


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## Tomagorn (Apr 5, 2013)

Fishbase says 76-83 F (23-27C) for cardinal tetras. Species profile on Aquatic Community says 73-81 "or warmer". Both these sources are usually more reliable than TFH. I'm not familiar with aquatic-experts.com.


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## Tomagorn (Apr 5, 2013)

Just a followup thought. The aquatic-experts photography really is quite stunning. It clearly shows how densely vegetated SA streams can be, which sort of puts the lie to the notion that only a little sunlight leaks through the overhanging plants.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

See, my experience is the opposite ... extremely delicate and sensitive below 82F. It wasn't until I read the many discus and other cichlid articles where they are from that I rose the temp and had better luck with them. I wonder if those sources are confusing them with neons, which definitely don't enjoy the high heat. That 73F listing definitely suggests that.


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## Pseudeotropheus BB (Jan 24, 2013)

Tomagorn said:


> Fishbase says 76-83 F (23-27C) for cardinal tetras. Species profile on Aquatic Community says 73-81 "or warmer". Both these sources are usually more reliable than TFH. I'm not familiar with aquatic-experts.com.


I am not trying to debate that Cardinals cant be kept in warmer water I am only stating how the fish live in their natural habitat. Obviously many hobbyists have success with warmer temps since housing with Discus is a must and would never argue that point. Ivan Mikolji is the author of the TFH article and is a revered explorer/investigator specializing in photography in the Amazon.


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