# Fighting or courting?



## sjrexroad1 (Jun 4, 2014)

I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to this, but wanted to get the opinion of you all who have experience with this....
I have a few-month-old 75 gallon mixed African tank, mostly Malawi species, with about 30 fish ranging from 1+" to 4". So far, I've only seen occasional chasing, but no serious fighting. I noticed 2 (I bought them as "mixed A. Cichlids" at my LFS, so no idea of what kind) today they were lip-locking and circling each other. Both are about 3" and are dark gray and striped, one is getting some yellow around his shoulders. I call them males, but I don't know for sure - one has 2 egg spots, the other has none. Sorry for the lack of details - this is my first cichlid tank, so this is all new to me. The largest fish - a full grown Blood Parrot I had before going all cichlid - kept trying to break them up, going back to his own business as soon as they split up.
I'm assuming these two were fighting, probably for territory, and that the Parrot is more dominant and was able to interfere. Does that sound about right? I do have a 20 gallon hospital tank set up if the need for one arises... :fish: 
Any thoughts or suggestions? I'm trying to do all I can to avoid aggression as much as possible - over-stocked tank with lots of rocks and caves. Any other tips would be great! Thank you for reading and for your time in answering! :thumb:


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## Demasoni1 (Apr 9, 2014)

Sounds like you have mixed two totally different types of fish in the same tank. This ( IMO) shouldn't be done. And since different types of cichlids require different water conditions, this can be harmful to the fish as well as being stressful to the owner, who has to constantly deal with fish that live halfway around the world form each other in their natural setting and have suddenly been dumped in the same tank together.

Not trying to be a downer just trying to help a fellow hobbyist. :thumb:

So I suggest that you decided what cichlids you want to keep and go from there.

And to answer your question, it sounds like male fighting to me.


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## sjrexroad1 (Jun 4, 2014)

Thanks for the info. They are all African cichlids except the Parrot, who was a loner before I started collecting A. cichlids. He's been doing great, and I've seen no issues with anyone for the 3 months they've all been together (until the fight today between 2 A. cichlids, which I assume is normal, that the Parrot broke up). I have been thinking of re-homing the Parrot to be sure he's as well cared for as possible, but wasn't sure how necessary that is being that he's been happy and healthy all along. Especially since he seems to be the dominant one and has been keeping aggression down between the A. cichlids. Thoughts on that? Is it possible for the Parrot to adjust to African parameters and be healthy, or should I move him out? I'd hate to lose "Smiley" as he's quite a character


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## Demasoni1 (Apr 9, 2014)

I am sorry for the above post I thought that I edited it saying that it was unwise to keep unknown Africans together, as this can cause unwanted aggression, and stress for the owner. Tanks thrive and do great when you have organized species groups.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Demasoni1 has a good point about water parameters, but it's a hybrid blood parrot who was 'created' somewhere and ended up in your tank. If he's keeping the peace and healthy(and you enjoy Smiley) then just hold onto the guy. I worked with someone who has had 6 BPs for over 6 years kept in very hard well water. The giant blobs are doing quite well. Just my 2 cents 

And I agree with demasoni1- sounds like males fighting for dominance.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Demasoni1 has a good point about water parameters


I very much disagree. For CA and lake Malawi cichlids it is a non-issue.
It really should not even be brought up but for some reason always seems to, whenever a CA/lake Malawi mix is discussed.

Both fishes generally come from high pH; CA cichlids usually coming from much harder waters.

Far, far too much is made about lake Malawi water parameters. Really nothing too special about water from lake Malawi. It's fairly high pH but not too hard (dH 4-6).

Many places across North America have water out of the tap that is more then fine for either. Of course in most cases were talking about hardy aquarium strains that are already accustomed to local water conditions, making so called 'special' water requirements even less of an non-issue. Those that alter their water chemistry to try and get something "closer" to lake Malawi water are just as likely, if not more likely, to end up with something more similar to water that could be found in Central America :lol:


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I admit that I do not know much about blood parrots. I thought they were a mix between a Midas and a Severum, but after looking it up that may just be a theory?

If they do originate from a mix of two species of fish from Central America then I guess it's safe to assume they would do best in harder water? Funny how all 'care sheets' on blood parrots indicate a preferred low pH and soft water.

I have extremely hard water from a well, which is why I setup and stocked a tank with Centrals instead of South Americans.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> I thought they were a mix between a Midas and a Severum, but after looking it up that may just be a theory?


I would say that is less then a theory......very, very unlikely. For one thing the fish does not possess even one trait that would indicate any severum ancestry. Nor has it really been shown that a severum X CA cross is even possible.....though I did see a supposed severum X convict cross on line that does look the part. Even if such a cross is possible, we really don't know whether it would be viable or whether it would be sterile.

There is a claim that the idea of severum being used by Asian breeders to produce hybrid fish comes from a poor translation from Cantonese. A hybrid fish used in crosses that translated to English is called 'severum'.

There is some evidence that a blood parrot is basically a midas/RD x synspilum cross. I would like to see this cross done again producing similar results before I am 100% convinced.

Others think it is not even a hybrid.....just a mutant midas or mutant RD, or in the very least a mutant midevil (RD x midas). If it is a cross, little doubt that it is a CA cross.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I've also read that breeders will use a male convict to fertilize/spawn with a female BP, since the vast majority of male BPs are sterile. Any truth to this?


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> I've also read that breeders will use a male convict to fertilize/spawn with a female BP, since the vast majority of male BPs are sterile. Any truth to this?


Never heard anything specific about crossing them with convicts (?). Though I have seen and heard of all kinds of CA cichlids crossed with blood parrots. I think that because the males are supposed to be almost always sterile, that you generally have to buy them, rather then produce them yourself.



BC in SK said:


> There is some evidence that a blood parrot is basically a midas/RD x synspilum cross.


First time I had seen the results of a supposed midas X synspila cross I was not fully convinced because there was no pictures of the parents with the spawn, as well as few other doubts I had. But here is a thread showing the results of a midas x syn cross for a 2nd time. Looks to be pretty convincing. Seems to be basically what is used to produce a blood parrot( though there may be further breeding steps to produce what are sold as blood parrots from the LFS?).http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...472102-reproducing-synspilum-with-citrinellum


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## Mr Chromedome (Feb 12, 2013)

Many years ago, a researcher at the University of Michigan did a mitochondrial DNA test on a Bloody Parrot. The results were pure _labiatus_; however, this only identifies one of the parents. The problem is that it was a privately funded test, and the results were not published anywhere. I only heard about it because I know the researcher personally.

There are both Convict x Bloody Parrot hybrids, and simpy deformed Convicts, usually the Pink variety, often dyed and sold as Jellybean Parrots. The way to tell these from regular Bloody Parrots is to look at very young fish. Jellybeans are white from birth like pink convicts, and will reproduce like, well, Convicts. I have seen very young Bloody Parrots showing the barred pattern of a juvenile _citrinellus_ complex fish, and there was nothing in that fish to suggest _synspilum_, either.This was long before Frankenhorns were even known in the US.

Considering the number of species of fish that have these spinal deformed variants, often called Balloon, I personally find it hard to believe Bloody Parrots are hybrids at all. Many point to the sterile males as "proof" of their hybrid nature, but it is simply more likely that the misshapen spine has pushed internal organs around and caused the sterility. The hybrid story seems more likely a fabrication to discourage hobbyist breeding. I have heard of a couple of instances where males turned out to be viable, but I suspect most of these were Jellybeans.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Mr Chromedome said:


> Many years ago, a researcher at the University of Michigan did a mitochondrial DNA test on a Bloody Parrot. The results were pure _labiatus_; however, this only identifies one of the parents. The problem is that it was a privately funded test, and the results were not published anywhere. I only heard about it because I know the researcher personally.


The problem is not that it was a privately funded test......the problem is that a mitochondrial DNA test will only show one species. It even says nothing about the purity of the fish used to produce it. Only shows that the maternal line can be traced back to a labiatus.


Mr Chromedome said:


> There are both Convict x Bloody Parrot hybrids, and simpy deformed Convicts, usually the Pink variety, often dyed and sold as Jellybean Parrots.


Yup, there are a few different fish that go by the name of jelly bean parrot. 
One kind, as you mention, are obviously short bodied convicts. But I think few would confuse these with blood parrots.



Mr Chromedome said:


> I have seen very young Bloody Parrots showing the barred pattern of a juvenile _citrinellus_ complex fish, and there was nothing in that fish to suggest _synspilum_,


I think many of us have seen juvie blood parrots in pictures and at pet shops with a juvie pattern similar to unfaded midas/RD. Though often they seem to have patterns a little different then midas/RD. But if you look on pg.3-4 of the link I provided, all the juvie midas X syn hybrids appear to have this barred pattern.


Mr Chromedome said:


> Considering the number of species of fish that have these spinal deformed variants, often called Balloon, I personally find it hard to believe Bloody Parrots are hybrids at all.


That is a good point. But balloon, like the jellybean convict, are simply short bodied. They don't have the deformed mouth and head of the blood parrot.
One of the things that sort of makes me lean towards it being a hybrid is the deformed head. First CA hybrids I ever had, mayan X JD given to me from my brother, all had deformed heads. Not quite as extreme as a blood parrot , but similar, and for years I always associated it with hybirdization. Though seeing how many crosses do not produce such a deformed head, I'm not really sure there is a connection.


Mr Chromedome said:


> I have heard of a couple of instances where males turned out to be viable, but I suspect most of these were Jellybeans.


I haven't come across any thread on line where someone had a viable male blood parrot. If most were not sterile, you would think there would be more people breeding them given how many are sold and how many people keep them. It does raise the question of how are they being produced? A mutant that produces sterile males will cease to be once the parent stock dies out.....unless your lucky enough to keep finding the same mutant! But if it's the result of hybirdization.....then you just keep doing the same crosses that produce it.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

I think this is an interesting thread to anyone curious as to what exactly a blood parrot is. That is why I think it is worth while providing a link to it.http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...472102-reproducing-synspilum-with-citrinellum

2nd time a midas X synspilum cross has produced a blood parrot-type fish. Hard to dismiss it as a fluke. If you go to pg.6, and click on the update video on post #58, I don't think that these fish would be called anything but blood parrots. Really aren't any different then what is commercially sold as blood parrots.
It is obvious looking at blood parrots that they have midas/RD ancestry. That they are pure midas or RD is not obvious at all :lol: Whether or not one sees syn at any stage of development really means nothing.......lot's and lot's of cichlid hybrids have one ancestor that is obvious, where as the other parent(s), nothing at all that one can really identify!

You can bet we'll see this cross a few more times now. Already a number of people on MFK are attempting their own syn x midas cross. Now that it is known how to make blood parrot-type fish, many will attempt to produce them.


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