# Emperor 400 vs Canister?



## il0veCichlids (Nov 9, 2009)

Which one is best? As far as I know i have an EHEIM canister that does 116GPH. The cost of it is almost 100$... The Emperor 400? Well it does 400GPH and its only 50$... I dont understand? I have the EHEIM canister and if I did know about the emperor 400 earlier i would have bought it!
PROS AND CONS OF BOTH???
is 2 emperor 400 filters enough for a 75-100 gallon tank? I was thinking of starting a demasoni+lab tank. kind of overstocked!
would 1 also be enough?


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

search for questions about canisters and hob's it's been talked about so many times


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

Where did you find an emperor 400 for $50.00?
You can't compare the two filters, they are completely different. G.P.H is overrated, sure the emperor may turn the tank over more times per hour, but what is it filtering the water through?


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## jaybuc (Dec 15, 2005)

I currently have 2 XP3s running on my 125g and I've owned Emperor 400 in the pasgt...I would go with the Emperor 400 any day. Canister filters are a pain to keep clean....the Emperor 400 is an awesome awesome filter IMO. You can run them on freshwater/saltwater doesn't matter. The key with any fish tank is keeping up with your weekly water changes. I am thinking of selling my Rena XP3s and going back to emperor 400s...just my 2cents


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## TangTango (Dec 11, 2009)

Yeh, Emp 400 is the way to go.
I have two on my 125 and it's the cleanest tank I have.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

neither one of you has actually answered the questions, i hope the op searched for old threads about canisters vs hobs and got some answers[/code]


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## sakie (Oct 22, 2009)

I have 2 hobs filters, 250 and 300 for 65gallon tall. The water is crystal clear but I have to change the media every 2-3 weeks. To be honest, I just wanted a cichlid tank and try to setup it up with little money as possible, but I should have buy a canister filter instead of of 2 hobs filters. The reason is this, when you want to clean your filter, canister can be place on the ground where you can have access to it while hobs filter, you have to climb up and reach over to grab it out while there's water still inside. Canister can have more filtering stages and you have option to choose which media you like to use, while hobs filter limited to debris catcher media/ carbon or the 'likes'. Here is my guess, a guy at lfs told me that if I get a canister that have 110 gph, it is equal to 2 bio-wheel Marieland 300! But for real...if you want to save money, goes with hobs but it will cost you time when it's time for cleaning. Canister is a lot easier to maintain and clean.


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## TangTango (Dec 11, 2009)

I've had canisters break where the hoses connect to it and that really sucks when that happens. I've also had sand wear a hole in the bottom where the impeller is and it's trash after that happens. And if the seal on the top doesn't make a good seal it'll leak. And if ya gone all day when it happens ya end up with a lot less water in ya tank and a lot of water on ya floor.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

My preference, by far, are canister filters. I've documented a reduction in nitrates by replacing HOB (penguin) filters with canister filters filled with the right types of media.

Canisters are much more efficient filters, better capable of surviving mistakes (by that I mean better able to help the tank survive your mistakes), provide much more filtration capacity, allow for a much greater range of flexibility, and are quieter.

There are physical processes involved. I could explain them or just point you to an article that explains them even better (go to the section a little more than halfway down titled YNAMICS OF AQUARIUM FILTRATION"):
http://www.seachem.com/Library/Articles ... ration.pdf

If you read the above, what this tells you is what we already know. HOBs are better at mechanical filtration and canisters are better at biological filtration. So the answer to your question (which is better?) depends on your needs. If you are restricted to a single filter, my recommendation would be a canister.

I tend to use a combination of HOBs and Canisters on each tank, with the primary purpose of the HOB filters to offload mechanical filtration from the canister. The mechanical filtration in an HOB is easily replaced/cleaned on a weekly bases, which means the gunk it is removing is not being collected in the canister, which results in reduced maintenance requirements on the canister. You are also minimizing nitrate accumulation by expediting the removal of organics before they can be converted into ammonia, with that removal occurring via the weekly cleaning/replacement of media in the HOBs.

If you are running a single HOB, you have the added problem of potential ammonia spikes resulting each time you replace a cartridge. This is not an issue with canisters.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

The beauty of the Emperor is though, of course, you can chuck the media and not worry about a spike becuase of the biowheel. At least I've never registered a spike using them. I dislike canisters becuase I'm lazy frankly, much more of a pain in the rear to clean compared to Emperor's.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

Leave your cartridges in the filter for a month or more, then change them. You will recieve an ammonia spike. Granted, it will be shortlived, but it will occur.

The bacteria will populate the cartridge, especially the carbon in the cartridge, which results in decreased colonies of bacteria on the biowheels. When you remove those colonies (by replacing or cleaning the cartridge), it can take a while for the bacteria colonies on the wheels to regain sufficient size to catch up to the ammonia being produced. End result, a mini-cycle. Of course, if you change/clean your cartridges weekly, this will not be a concern.

Biowheels are also not very good for use on tanks with hard water (as you would find in an African tank). Calcium deposits build up on the wheels resulting in limited surface area for the bacteria while making the wheels difficult to spin (eventually stopping them from spinning).

All of that makes it sound like I am against biowheels. I am not. When it comes to HOB filters I think they are they way to go as they get around the issue of limited bed depth and surface area that are inherent in HOBs. Anything over 60gph on an HOB is pretty much overkill (as it relates to biological filtration), unless that HOB is a biowheel, in which case the full gph actually produces benefits other than water movement.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i can argue against all the points you guys made, but i'm glad some one finally actually broke it down and answered the op's question, ime what it ultimately comes down to is noise, i have used them all and still do, i like hob's, they are quick and easy to use and maintain, you're supposed to take off and empty them when changing media, but sometimes i don't if i'm in a rush

with a canister since you have to break it down to change or clean media you might as well clean it out, and if you're lazy i wouldn't get a canister because you might end up ignoring it

but what it really comes down to is noise, canisters are quieter, plain and simple, all filters have bio media (which is severly overated) and all filters have mechanical media (floss, which is the most important)


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

*kmuda* - Nice to know about the hard water and the biowheels, never ran across that myself. Nor have a ever had a wheel stop spinning in either a penguin or Emperor, and have been using both since they first came out. But then I keep real cichlids, not those malawi tetras ...   :lol:

Actually, I tend to not like to play with water (see lazy comment above), and our tap water here is perfect for south americans and westies.

And yes, I cleaned the pads once or even twice a week (in tanks with heavy frozen food feedings) ... hence why I never noticed a spike. I use them exclusely for mechanical filtration and rely on the biowheel for the biological.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

cjacob316 said:


> all filters have bio media (which is severly overated) and all filters have mechanical media (floss, which is the most important)


I am in the opposite camp. I don't think you can place enough importance on "biomedia". As evidence, I will use two recent examples. I recently moved an established 20 gallon tank with a 2" sand bed upstairs to be used by my daughter. I only moved the tank and substrate, leaving the filter (a penguin 150) on replacement tank downstairs (placing a new filter on this tank). The tank only houses 3 platies and 3 guppies (it previously housed a swarm of them). It's currently in a cycle that has been lasting for the last two weeks. The downstairs "replacment" tank.... a brand new tank with brand new substrate... that recieved the established filter, never cycled.

The second example is I recently removed the gravel substrate from my Angelfish tank, replacing it with sand. The tank never experienced an ammonia or nitrite spike.

About 95% of the ammonia produced in a tank is produced in a form not removable via diligent cleaning of mechanical media.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i have switched filters without a spike on the established tank, and with a spike on the new tank with old filter

it's a **** shoot and since bacteria can live without the filter then it is overated, i'd rather be able to switch out a filter and not have to worry about it

oh and i have never had hard water deposits slow my wheels, had it build up everwhere else, but never slow my wheels


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## jaybuc (Dec 15, 2005)

kmuda said:


> My preference, by far, are canister filters. I've documented a reduction in nitrates by replacing HOB (penguin) filters with canister filters filled with the right types of media.
> 
> Canisters are much more efficient filters, better capable of surviving mistakes (by that I mean better able to help the tank survive your mistakes), provide much more filtration capacity, allow for a much greater range of flexibility, and are quieter.
> 
> ...


I agree for the most part, however I have owned both and used both on saltwater and freshwater setups. If you do weekly water changes  I like your idea of using a HOB for mechanical and the canister for biological. Water changes should help control any spikes. I just find HOB filters so much cleaner and easier to work with....Canisters are a pain, but using both is they way to go for sure


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## flaxseedoil1000 (Dec 27, 2009)

Just be aware of the noise of the 400


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## smitty (May 7, 2004)

There is no way on god's good green earth that you could come up with trying to compare a pequin/emperor 400 to an Eheim. Eheims are thr Rolls Royce of filters.


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