# Quality of Fish From a Breeder



## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Iâ€™m making this thread in place of one that was recently locked. I understand that management limits conversations of specific suppliers and I see some good reasons for doing so. But I also saw a good topic in that thread that I wanted to hear/share opinions on. So letâ€™s not talk too much of one specific supplier in order to keep this thread open (please and thank you).

Some suppliers seem to have a good reputation of supplying high quality stock while others have a reputation of supplying questionable stockâ€¦ why is this?

Some places/people have spent the time to thoroughly educate themselves on the fish they sell which helps the buyer ensure that they are getting what they pay for. We often see fish mislabeled at stores or see them labeled with common names only and the store employees do not know the actual name of the fish. Also some different types of fish may have the same common nameâ€¦ Although on one hand I have no desire to learn Latin as part of keeping fish, Iâ€™m grateful to the breeders that do take the time to educate themselves on these things to help me better know what Iâ€™m buying. These more educated breeders are also more likely to recognize and avoid selling (mislabeled) hybrids.

Some places/breeders that have been breeding for many years have learned a lot of â€œtricks of the tradeâ€


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## PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn (Dec 26, 2005)

just like to point out that no one should start specifying retailers for their examples, posts will be edited to remove such reviews.

I think a lot of it comes down to the motivation of the retailers in question. there are those who are obviously in it for the money, and will sell anything to make some money, and then there are those who are thoroughly dedicated to fish. and do their best to sell the best possible with the best advise etc.

the big chain stores are in general a bad thing, they tend to have poorly educated staff, and sell mass produced (usually asian) fish, as well as all the deformed sp that are created (tattooed, tailless, balloon, etc) offer no good advise for newcomers, poorly labled fish, and when they get the sp right quite inacurate descriptions (for instance an oscar with the potential to reach 12-14", and saying it'll get to 6" and so on)
however for me, its one of the chain stores (a specialist fish one however) that tends to carry the best stock and good advise etc (basically the opposite of the above description)

(I started this reply with loads of ideas, and now I've forgotten them all, so will come back later when I remember)


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## Vincent (May 7, 2004)

One pet peeve of mine is when fish come in under the listed sizes. So rarely do the fish that I receive meet the listed size that now I'm surprised when it happens.

I also appreciate retailers that can ship via air cargo instead of overnight mail because it can cut shipping costs in half or more and the fish spend less time in transit.


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

Toby_H said:


> Some suppliers seem to have a good reputation of supplying high quality stock while others have a reputation of supplying questionable stockâ€¦ why is this?


 the #1 easy answer, to me, is focus. the best suppliers have chosen their niche, and put all their efforts into that alone. they collect names and places that compliment their same passions, and eventually, tally up an impressive source list for the best.


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## kornphlake (Feb 12, 2004)

A good supplier will have collection data at least for the parents, if the parents are not wild caught he will know what generation the fish are (F1, F2, etc) and have the collection data or geneology of those fish. If the fish has been line bred for color or finnage there will be some information there, rather specimines from different collection locations were crossed or if the fish are hybrids. I don't think I've ever been in a fish store where an employee actually knows anything about the fish other than the name of the fish, one or two shops have told me where the fish came from if there is a local breeder.

Quality of fish is difficult to define really. A wild caught fish could be considered to be the ideal specimine but may have poor finnage and color compared to tank bred fish of the same species. Wild caught fish generally are not as hardy as tank bred fish. It comes down to your own personal preference and how much of a challenge you are looking for. I generally prefer wild caught or F1 fish simply because I find more beauty in fish with natural colors and shapes than in fish that have been bred and crossed to bring out unnatural traits. That's just me though, I generally prefer classic cars restored to the factory condition instead of souped up with hot rod engines and covered in chrome, I prefer hand drawn cartoons over computer animation, I'd rather listen to a grand piano than a synthesizer, I like whole wheat bread more than white... Breeding fish is like any other art, the artist has the freedom to do what he will to create his own vision, to some that vision is appealing to others it is not.

The most basic means of determining the quality of a fish is to observe its health, if it is free of illness and is visually appealing to you it is a quality fish.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Toby_H said:


> Some suppliers seem to have a good reputation of supplying high quality stock while others have a reputation of supplying questionable stockâ€¦ why is this?


It's a simple question with what I believe to be a simple answer.

Some are in it for the money, and some are in it for the love of the hobby. There is a huge difference in what you can expect from those two types of suppliers.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

cichlidaholic said:


> Toby_H said:
> 
> 
> > Some suppliers seem to have a good reputation of supplying high quality stock while others have a reputation of supplying questionable stockâ€¦ why is this?
> ...


But I'm sure there are many employees of a 'mass producing' company that are passionate about the fish and will work behind the scenes to take healthy steps... and I'm sure there are some who get into breeding/distributing for all the right reasons but then get burnt out and start to slack off... (just playing Devil's Advocate)...


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Toby_H said:


> But I'm sure there are many employees of a 'mass producing' company that are passionate about the fish and will work behind the scenes to take healthy steps... and I'm sure there are some who get into breeding/distributing for all the right reasons but then get burnt out and start to slack off... (just playing Devil's Advocate)...


IMO, "mass producing" companies are in it for the money first, whether they are passionate about the fish or not. You can't enjoy fish in large vats for breeding purposes quite as much as you can enjoy a tank in your living area.

I'm one of the slackers... :lol:

My husband and I used to breed ALOT of fish. We stopped for 3 reasons...

I wanted some of my space back - we live in an apartment and I had tanks in every room except the bathroom!

Raising fry properly is alot of work, and I'm not sure we ever really truly made a profit from it. We didn't make things easy on ourselves, all of our tanks were fully decorated and a nice addition to our home. Not quite the same as taking care of bare bones fry tanks!

And, finally, I was happy with the species I had and wanted to keep them, rather than adapt my tanks to what was in demand in the area.

So, the passion for the hobby remains - I'll never be without a fish tank unless I get so senile that I forget I love them. I'm just getting lazy in my old age! :wink:


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## dogofwar (Apr 5, 2004)

I'm not sure that motive has as much to do with it as some might think: you can be in it to make money and provide a good product and service...and you can be in it for love of the hobby and provide a bad product and service...

The quality of fish from a breeder has to do with quality of stock, quality of maintenance, and quality of shipping/delivery....as well as the professionalism and honesty of the vendor.

I would attribute the shortage of vendors who exhibit these traits to LFS and chains (and their customers) not being willing to pay more for quality/service.

For every one person willing to pay $9.98 for a cichlid with an accurate scientific name and provenance to a collection location, there are 10 willing to pay $6.96 for a "mixed african" jammed into an ick chamber at *large box store name edited by moderator*.


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## RyanR (Apr 29, 2008)

dogofwar said:


> For every one person willing to pay $9.98 for a cichlid with an accurate scientific name and provenance to a collection location, there are 10 willing to pay $6.96 for a "mixed african" jammed into an ick chamber at *large box store name edited by moderator*.


So true! Of course, the irony is that they're saving $3 on a fish that they'll put into $200 (or more!) worth of equipment. :lol:

There are definitely shades of gray between "mass produced" fish and the online "boutique" breeders with very high quality stock. Our LFS gets their stock from various places. Good quality fish for sure (I love my guys--beautiful and personable!), but definitely not WC or F1 stuff.

I imagine that it's tough in our small town... our LFS has to straddle a fine line between getting good fish, but not such expensive fish that they have to write off the whole bunch when no one buys them. This has happened with a bunch of cichlids that have wound up in our tanks... actually, all of our non-severums have been lonely guys that "the market" didn't want.

-Ryan


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## mccluggen (Jul 5, 2008)

The only local fish store worth mentioning in my area tries to get me what I ask for, and has access to a breeder in Florida that has a decent selection of cichlids, but he carries only a few of the "flashier" species in the store.

As he says most casual "hobbyists" are not willing to pay $10 - $25 for a single little gray juvenile no matter how magnificent the fish might look grown up. Generally all he carries are a few mbuna, some peacocks and a couple of species of south Americans.

In his words most folks are attracted to freshwater because it is "cheap" and then move on to saltwater when they grow out of fresh (coincidentally he makes a lot of his money maintaining salt water tanks after folks screw those up out of impatience.)

Only the true hobbyist cares about collection points and integrity of the strains, most average consumers only care about the appearance of the fish and will happily plop a couple of cheap hybrid fish into their tanks.


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