# New blue labs (Labidochromis caeruleus- Nkhata Bay)



## greggb (Feb 4, 2010)

Hi all. I'm sure this isn't the most exciting announcement for a new fish purchase you've ever heard, but I just got some blue labs, which are the Nkhata Bay morph of yellow labs, and from what I've read, quite a bit more common in the natural than in the hobby.

They're all about 1" or less (got 7 in total) so I have them in a community tank for now. I've wanted some of these ever since I first got into cichlids and believed I had one, when the fish I actually had was a socolofi (I gave him away). But these are definitely labs.

None of the shops in my area carry these, or are even able to get these in, and come to think of it, have even heard of these. They're not nearly as bright or colorful as yellow labs, which probably explains the lack of demand and resulting lack of supply. But I happen to really like them, which is the important thing 

Here are some pics:


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## iplaywithemotions (Dec 18, 2008)

Very cool! More pics if you have any, please!


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## stnick80 (Apr 27, 2005)

I think they are sexy!

That is the fish that the Labidochromis caeruleus species got their name from! Not a common sight at all. I like em a lot though.


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## iplaywithemotions (Dec 18, 2008)

I agree with stnick80, that is one sexy fish!


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## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

I have been looking for those for ever and havent been able to find them. Did you get the locally or online?


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## Riceburner (Sep 3, 2008)

these are my oldest fry.


















3 different spawns are free swimming and 2 more holding.


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## Buddy.08 (Apr 26, 2007)

i want some!


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## greggb (Feb 4, 2010)

GaFishMan1181 said:


> I have been looking for those for ever and havent been able to find them. Did you get the locally or online?


I guess it's OK for me to mention a seller? I got these from Bluegrass Aquatics. This seller has a lot of good reviews from this site, and I gave them an excellent review as well. I placed the order Saturday and had the fish by 11:00 this morning. They threw in an extra fish, and all arrived very alive and well.

They've gotten pretty comfortable inside the tank tonight. They're in a community tank with some guppies, mollies, and platies for now. This was the way I raised my yellow labs as well. I let them get up to about 1.5" before moving them to my 55 gallon tank and never noticed any aggression towards other fish.

I've notice fairly different behavior in these fish than in my yellow labs. They spend a lot more time on the bottom looking for food and seem to be quite a bit more energetic. I wonder if this isn't because they were fed with some kind of sinking pellet? Only two so far have even remotely figured out the feeding routine, whereas the yellow labs knew the drill from day one.

Anyway, I'll see about getting some more pictures now that they're not so skiddish.


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## greggb (Feb 4, 2010)

stnick80 said:


> I think they are sexy!
> 
> That is the fish that the Labidochromis caeruleus species got their name from! Not a common sight at all. I like em a lot though.


Yeah, I guess "caeruleus" is latin for blue, which would make the yellow more of a "morph" than the blue. I've also read that these fish are found much more commonly in the wild than the yellow labs are. There's a pretty interesting story about yellow labs at this site:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/l_caeruleus.php

I've read in a couple of places (including the article mentioned above) that most of the yellow labs in the hobby today are descendants of two wild-caught fish from Lake Malawi, as a result of how rare the yellow are in the wild. Another article mentioned an earthquake destroying a yellow lab breeding operation somewhere early on... so it's evidently a fish with a lot of drama in its past.

I guess the blue are so rare in the hobby because there's just not much of a demand for them. They could be just as easily bred and distributed as yellows, so I figure the reason they're not is a simple matter of supply and demand.

Anyhow, I'm going to see if I can get some better pics now.


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## greggb (Feb 4, 2010)

Here are some more pics:


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## Buddy.08 (Apr 26, 2007)

Where did you purchase your blue labs?


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## nvrstk (Feb 10, 2010)

Beautiful fish-I want some!


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## MCKP (Aug 17, 2009)

What is the difference between them and the Socolofi?? I have spent over a month even just trying to locate Socolofi and have just recently gotten 2 and have 6 more on the way, but I got them because I wanted some that looked like blue labs..... and these pics look just like my Socolofi.....

So, how do you tell the difference in person??


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## stnick80 (Apr 27, 2005)

MCKP said:


> What is the difference between them and the Socolofi?? I have spent over a month even just trying to locate Socolofi and have just recently gotten 2 and have 6 more on the way, but I got them because I wanted some that looked like blue labs..... and these pics look just like my Socolofi.....
> 
> So, how do you tell the difference in person??


It is pretty easy to tell the difference in my opinion. The blue Labs have the same build as the yellow Labs only they are blue. =P Socolofi have a different shape. Most people have seen so many Yellow Labs that identifying a blue one is easy.


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## MCKP (Aug 17, 2009)

My Socolofi are pretty small yet, but I am guess just the more narrow body on them??

This is the first time I had seen a Socolofi in person(got them Monday)


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## NJFisher (Apr 17, 2009)

Would there be any breeding issues with housing them with yellow labs? The two colors would look great together.


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## Riceburner (Sep 3, 2008)

they would cross breed


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## greggb (Feb 4, 2010)

I got these from Bluegrass Aquatics, and was very happy with the fish and service.

I'm going to put these in a tank with yellow labs and see what happens. If they start crossbreeding I'll separate them. I'm really curious to observe their behavior, though.

I'm still learning about cichlids, but one of the things I've read many times is that their tendency to breed with others is related to visual similarities. So I'm going to test the theory that because they have very different coloring, they won't be any more likely to crossbeed than they would with other species or genera.

Some of the more experience cichlid keepers here may already know what will happen here, but I'd still like to see for myself.


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## greggb (Feb 4, 2010)

MCKP said:


> What is the difference between them and the Socolofi?? I have spent over a month even just trying to locate Socolofi and have just recently gotten 2 and have 6 more on the way, but I got them because I wanted some that looked like blue labs..... and these pics look just like my Socolofi.....
> 
> So, how do you tell the difference in person??


Yeah, I thought I had a blue lab when I actually had a socolofi. I think it's pretty easy to tell the difference once you have a clear picture of each in your head. I had a really time discerning them when I had my socolofi because I'd never seen a blue lab, and for that matter hadn't even kept yellow labs at the time.

For me the giveaway on the socolofi was the black on the tail fin. If you look at the pictures on the following profile (the third option is a really good example): 
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... php?id=919 
You'll see black on the tail fin. To my knowledge labs don't generally have black on their tailfins, at least not to this degree.

I think once you've kept both species it's pretty easy to tell the difference, as a lot of the more experienced cichlid keepers here suggest.


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## MCKP (Aug 17, 2009)

Yeah, my little socolofi are only about 2 inches.... I have yellow labs but they are not in the same tank yet (quarantining the Socofoli)


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## Hawks (Feb 7, 2008)

I emailed Bluegrass a couple of days ago to check on his availablity on these labs and three other species and haven't heard back from him. If he can't respond to my email and a $251 sale (which mine will be), not sure if he is someone I would want to order from.


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## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

I would give them a call. I only email people if they do not post a phone number or if i have tried several times to get them on the phone. I am sure they would be happy to fill your order.


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## shaguars7 (Apr 12, 2009)

greggb said:


> I got these from Bluegrass Aquatics, and was very happy with the fish and service.
> 
> I'm going to put these in a tank with yellow labs and see what happens. If they start crossbreeding I'll separate them. I'm really curious to observe their behavior, though.
> 
> ...


I understand wanting to learn things on your own, but they will breed together it mine aswell be a guarantee you need not to try out! I hope you understand all it will take is once and you will realize....but what will you do then??? are you prepared to cull all of the fry the cross breeeding produces if not i dont see the point...what you have said is you know other more experienced cichlid keepers would say it should not be done well why do it.....learning lessons is good when the outcome has a possibility of being positive in this case there is no positives....I am sure you have never shot your self in the foot to know it hurts....but will listen to people who have and not try it for yourself.!
imo a silly thing to try!


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## greggb (Feb 4, 2010)

Hawks said:


> I emailed Bluegrass a couple of days ago to check on his availablity on these labs and three other species and haven't heard back from him. If he can't respond to my email and a $251 sale (which mine will be), not sure if he is someone I would want to order from.


He mentioned to me that he'd be gone for the week, so I'd give it some time. My labs are great looking fish and are all still very healthy. And I'd definitely be for calling. A lot of these specialty business owners aren't real big on technology.


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## greggb (Feb 4, 2010)

shaguars7 said:


> greggb said:
> 
> 
> > I got these from Bluegrass Aquatics, and was very happy with the fish and service.
> ...


I know you're giving me good advice, and yes, I'm prepared to deal with the hybrid fry if/when they crossbreed. I want to learn all I possibly can about cichlids, how they interact with other species, etc. I really want to observe and understand their behavior, and if you're wanting a true understanding, there's no substitute for first-hand experience.

Anyway, none of the yellows or blues are at breeding age, and at this point I can only make educated guesses as to which ones are males/females. From what I understand about stocking a tank, you have to wait and see how the fish interact with each other before deciding which ones you're going to keep and remove. I think it will be really cool to observe how yellows and blues interact with each other while they're coming of age and setting up a pecking order.

One very interesting question about yellow/blue labs IMO is, why are there no intermediary links between the yellow and blue? I don't know the first thing about cichlid genetics, but I imagine that having blues and yellow crossbreed would reveal a lot of things about that.

Anyhow, it's getting late, but I'll keep posting updates for anyone who's interested.


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## justinf67 (Jul 19, 2009)

They dont crossbreed by similar colors. at least not always. Male red zebras are notorious for crossing with just about anything, lol. I have red zebra in my tank and he wants the msobo which is yellow. Again, when u mix the two, they are basically the same fish, except different coloration. they will not notice the color difference, believe me.... So, u are prepared to not save ANY fry from either one that holds, and if some survive to house them their entire lives or cull/kill them?

You can see and learn about cichlid interaction without putting two species togather who will no doubt crossbreed. We are just telling u it will happen... why not stock correctly and enjoy pure fry and watch the natural behavior of a species breeding with who its supposed to


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## kitana8 (Jan 20, 2010)

greggb said:


> One very interesting question about yellow/blue labs IMO is, why are there no intermediary links between the yellow and blue? I don't know the first thing about cichlid genetics, but I imagine that having blues and yellow crossbreed would reveal a lot of things about that.


The explanation is very, very simple. In Malawi lake, the environment is not continuous at all. You will meet large rocky areas suitable for mbunas, separated by large sandy areas where predators abound and where there is no food for mbunas. Speciation occurs very easily in such a case. When a few individuals of a species reach a new area, and they start to breed, the likelihood of them developping mutations and becoming different from the main population is very high since there are only a few individual who managed to cross the void between the 2 suitable environment. If the offspring shows a new color, and the females then favor breeding with the males of that color, you will slowly see the first original color disappear in favor of the new one. To go back to reality, it's as if two blue Labs go to an isolated area and breed, but one carries a mutation on the color gene and the fry turn out to be yellow, then a couple of thousands years down the road you will get a yellow population. Nothing is more simple than that, it is why there are so many geographic variants of almost every species than is fixated on a specific environment.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Note that you cannot ID hybrids by appearance. So if you are saying it will be interesting to see what the fry from a cross will look like? They could look exactly like either parent. Or not.


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## iplaywithemotions (Dec 18, 2008)

A little bit off topic, but would Yellow Labs and Socolofi be likely to crossbreed?


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## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

I look at it like any mbuna could potential crossbreed so if you are super serious about breeding then get a tank for breeding and only have one species in it so you know for sure.

If you are going to put fish in the same tank and still save fry then i like to look at fish body shape, markings, and color.

For yellow labs and socolofi the body shape are different, the markings are similar and the colors are different (even though both are just one solid color). I think the chances of crossbreeding are slim but there is always a possibility. Since both species are monomorphic it would be important to vent and make sure you have plenty of ladies for the male. You could very easily unknowingly have male heavy labs and have female heavy socolofi and then the odds of crossbreeding would go up.


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## greggb (Feb 4, 2010)

kitana8 said:


> greggb said:
> 
> 
> > One very interesting question about yellow/blue labs IMO is, why are there no intermediary links between the yellow and blue? I don't know the first thing about cichlid genetics, but I imagine that having blues and yellow crossbreed would reveal a lot of things about that.
> ...


I've obviously never been to lake Malawi, but I would question whether the explanation is really this simple. I could see it being this simple if coloring aided in survival, as in, canary yellow helped the cichlids blend in with their environment. But if it's just a matter of the females' choice in mating partners, assuming they preferred yellow to blue, well, first of all, I'd have to wonder why females would prefer a different color to their own. And if they really did prefer a different color to their own to such an extent that the old color was bred out, I'd have to wonder why this wouldn't happen with the original colony of fish. Sooner or later the mutation would occur within the original colony, and again, if the females preferred the mutated color over their own, you should see the same thing happening.

I'm not a scientist but I definitely understand the concept of geographic isolation like you were referring to, and I've read enough about Lake Malawi to know that its diversity would lead to a lot of geographic isolation of species.

I think a less simple and more probable explanation for the distinct difference between the colors of different morphs of the same species is that color is linked to behavior. Perhaps yellows are more aggressive? That's been my experience so far, though my experience is hardly scientific. If it were true, it might explain how yellow males would get more breeding action, which might eventually lead to breeding out the blue.

If it were the case that yellows were more aggressive, or even physically superior to blues (which might explain why females would choose them over the old color), you should still expect to see the mutation occuring within the main colony, and expect to see the yellow eventually replacing the blue within the main colony, the same way they did within the isolated colony, shouldn't you?

At any rate, whatever the cause, I don't think it's quite that simple.


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## shaguars7 (Apr 12, 2009)

greg it is that simple....in each specific area the predators and landscape would be different. A yellow fish to survive where a blue would not and for all of the lab family...making it much easier for the species to breed with ones that are the same....if all blue coloured labs were ate or did not survive in a area and ones with more yellow survived...it goes down to that...moore yellows would mate with other yellows that survived in these specific areas kmaking the fish in that collection point more yellow....in fact these fish are all the same fish with just small diversities from what that specific part of the lake needed for there survival. 
any labetrophus will breed with another it does not matter if they look totally different or not because there the same fish just locations in the lake made for a different colour to surviive and thats that...so it is really that simple..what survuves breeds together and that leads to more fish that looked like parents and so on and so forth.
I think instead of ruing a health line of fish you should read a book....seriously read a book....or google search survival of the fittest or evolution.!!!!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The yellow morph (Lion's Cove) and blue morph (Nkhata Bay) do not live in the same part of the lake. Lions Cove and other yellow morphs inhabit the northern half of the lake. South of Kajizingi which is a few kilometers south of Lion's Cove all known populations are pure white. The yellow and blue morphs do not cohabit in the wild.


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## greggb (Feb 4, 2010)

shaguars7 said:


> greg it is that simple....in each specific area the predators and landscape would be different. A yellow fish to survive where a blue would not and for all of the lab family...making it much easier for the species to breed with ones that are the same....if all blue coloured labs were ate or did not survive in a area and ones with more yellow survived...it goes down to that...moore yellows would mate with other yellows that survived in these specific areas kmaking the fish in that collection point more yellow....in fact these fish are all the same fish with just small diversities from what that specific part of the lake needed for there survival.
> any labetrophus will breed with another it does not matter if they look totally different or not because there the same fish just locations in the lake made for a different colour to surviive and thats that...so it is really that simple..what survuves breeds together and that leads to more fish that looked like parents and so on and so forth.
> I think instead of ruing a health line of fish you should read a book....seriously read a book....or google search survival of the fittest or evolution.!!!!


I'd agree that it would be that simple if it were a matter of survival, as once again in yellow being better suited for life in a certain geographic area. I was replying to a post where it was stated that it was simple for the "simple" reason that females would choose yellow over blue, in which case (once again) this should happen in the main colony as well.

Anyway, I understand and respect the concern of all those who don't believe in hybridization of fish, and my plan isn't to cross-breed my fish. I'd just like to see how these fish interact. I know I could read a book that might explain what can be expected, but if you're the kind of person who wishes to truly understand a thing, there's no substitute for first-hand experience.

For example, I'm already noticing differences in the behaviors of these fish. The blues are incredibly mild-mannered. Not to suggest that yellows aren't mild-mannered, but so far the blues are really gentle fish.

I raised my yellows to approx 1.25" in my community tank, which had the fry of live-breeders. Within 1 day, at less than 1", the yellows had eaten all of the fry. Every last baby fish in the tank had been eaten.

Since I moved the blues in the community tank, babies have been born, and have lived and are growing. I haven't observed the blues being interested at all in eating them.

So, where for me a lot of the enjoyment in having cichlids is developing a full understanding of them, and I really want to learn how blues and yellows are different, I'm going to need to have them in the same tank for a while. Then once my curiousity has been satisifed I'll split them up. And if there are any hybrids, well, I do have a few peacocks in the tank.

So don't worry, I'm going to keep the bloodlines pure.

so


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## kitana8 (Jan 20, 2010)

greggb said:


> If it were the case that yellows were more aggressive, or even physically superior to blues (which might explain why females would choose them over the old color), you should still expect to see the mutation occuring within the main colony, and expect to see the yellow eventually replacing the blue within the main colony, the same way they did within the isolated colony, shouldn't you?


No, you shouldn't. It's only when a population is isolated that the mutations of individuals become significant in the population, otherwise it is so diluted in the mass that it stays very rare. Put two albino fish in a tank and soon you'll get a whole population of albino fish. Put two albino fish in a lake and soon you will have no albino fish at all. The likelihood of mutated individuals breeding together and perpetuating their genetic mutation to the subsequent generations is very slim if not impossible, except if these individuals are by themselves or if teh mutations bring forth an exceptionnal chance at survival...


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## greggb (Feb 4, 2010)

kitana8 said:


> greggb said:
> 
> 
> > If the offspring shows a new color, and the females then favor breeding with the males of that color


That's the part that really seemed off in your original reply to me. If you'd mentioned a morph that would provide an advantage in a geographical area I probably would have agreed whole-heartedly.

It would be possible for a morph to result in superior physical capabilities in a specimen, which would allow it to out-compete with the old, and eventually take the place of the old, without relying on advantages related to the geographical area. If this had been the case, it's not likely that it would have happened in one place, but not the other. Or maybe a better way of putting it is that geography wouldn't have been the cause in this case.

Anyway, so far I've noticed pretty big behaviorial differences in the two morphs of fish. My sampling isn't anywhere near large enough for me to say that blues and yellows have definite behaviorial differences on the whole. But let's entertain a thought experiment where it is believed that blues and yellows have noticeably different behavior on the whole.

Distinctly different physical color, distinctly different behavior... sounds like distinctly different species to me. I'm not sure what criteria is used to distinguish one cichlid species from another, but I'd think you'd have to be getting close. If the genetic makeups of each of the morphs is causing them to look differently, and behave differently, then the genetic makeups are notably different.

From what I've gathered cichlid species identification is somewhat of a loose science. Cichlids can crossbreed and have fertile offspring, can't they? So we're not identifying cichlids by reproductive isolation, are we? And it not, what are we identifying them by?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

A variety of differentiators are used, but a common one is teeth and feeding habits. But I don't think yellow and white or blue labs are considered different species, but color morphs.

That being said, Malawi fish keepers still like to keep the various collection points separate. For example even if you had two yellow labs from two different collection points we would not want to cross breed them.

Do you know the collection point for your yellow labs? It's not something you can derive but you would have had to purchase them with the collection point a part of their description.

Wild caught yellow labs are expensive, but perhaps you purchased from someone who had wild caught or F1 breeders from a certain collection point, or tank raised fish that were carefully bred only with other labs from that collection point?


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## shaguars7 (Apr 12, 2009)

, distinctly different behavior... sounds like distinctly different species to me. I'm not sure what criteria is used to distinguish one cichlid species from another, but I'd think you'd have to be getting close. If the genetic makeups of each of the morphs is causing them to look differently, and behave differently, then the genetic makeups are notably different.

on this note i have raised fish from the same brood that fell into this exact argument you have said above. 
Do you have siblings? are you exactly the same as them....i know i am very different than my brother and sister eventhough we were raised the exact same way in the same area and same schools. I dont think that specific behaviour is ever concise to one type of fish...for example many people who have kept yellow labs will say they are mild and non-aggressive fish...I one of my tanks my dominant male lab runs the whole tank...I have 2 male labeotropheus in the tank which nearly double his size so does that make sense in the regular idea of a lab eing mild. 
Honestly you can clearly do whatever you want and that is no skin off my back but i just think what you are doing is childish.. Sorry for being so blunt.


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## greggb (Feb 4, 2010)

shaguars7 said:


> , distinctly different behavior... sounds like distinctly different species to me. I'm not sure what criteria is used to distinguish one cichlid species from another, but I'd think you'd have to be getting close. If the genetic makeups of each of the morphs is causing them to look differently, and behave differently, then the genetic makeups are notably different.
> 
> on this note i have raised fish from the same brood that fell into this exact argument you have said above.
> Do you have siblings? are you exactly the same as them....i know i am very different than my brother and sister eventhough we were raised the exact same way in the same area and same schools. I dont think that specific behaviour is ever concise to one type of fish...for example many people who have kept yellow labs will say they are mild and non-aggressive fish...I one of my tanks my dominant male lab runs the whole tank...I have 2 male labeotropheus in the tank which nearly double his size so does that make sense in the regular idea of a lab eing mild.
> Honestly you can clearly do whatever you want and that is no skin off my back but i just think what you are doing is childish.. Sorry for being so blunt.


Are you the same color as your siblings? If you can tell me that you and your siblings are distinctly different colors I'll consider this argument. Incidentally, my behavior is quite different than that of my siblings, but we are roughly the same color.

Anyway, I'm talking about the behavior of one group of fish as a whole versus another. I could list behavioral differences among members of the same fish in my tank (like comparing you and your siblings). Certain yellows are more aggressive than others, and the same is true with ever other species of fish, when comparing members of the same species. Using your style of analogy it would be like comparing the behavior of you and your siblings to that of your cousins, who were raised differently, in a different place, and were probably fed differently as well.

I have yet to see the blues go after the baby fish in the tank. The yellows had cleaned out the tank of probably 20 baby fish in less than a day. Now that's a pretty significant difference in behavior. Granted, this observation is far from scientific, and doesn't allow me to conclude that this is the way things are overall. But I don't need to conclude that this is the way things are overall.

You have two (or more) colonies of the same species of fish, which wind up in different places. Where living conditions are different in each place, to such a degree that one colony will morph to a very different color, it follows that the behavior of the fish will need to change as well. It might have been the case that yellows needed to be more aggressive and eat more small fish than the blues. That's just one possibility, but it would be foolish to think that the behavior of the fish wouldn't need to change to adapt to a very different environment.

So, you should expect different behavior in each of these morphs of fish, where they've lived in environments different enough and long enough that one would take on a completely different color. I can safely assume that the behavior of each of these morphs will be different.

So when do you finally call one morph a different species than another? With many other animals it's pretty cut and dry. But with cichlids the difference in DNA in one species and another is often so miniscule that the two species can reproduce and create viable offspring. Which suggests that their DNA isn't that different afterall.

It's kind of like the classical paradox of removing grains of sand, one at a time, until at some point you don't have a pile anymore. But at what point is that? And at what point do you call a morph of one species a different species, going by a set of rules where differences in DNA isn't really what seperates one species from another.

Just some food for thought.

And again, I'm not planning on cross breeding fish and circulating them in some kind of diabolical plan to destroy the blood lne. I just want to see how yellows and blues interact. Once I see how they interact I'll separate them like a responsible, grownup cichlid keeper should.


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## lil_flame33 (Mar 20, 2010)

so if the blue labs and the yellow labs are the same species with just different colors, would they actually be hybrids, after all if you have a brown pitbull and a white pitbull the puppies arent cross breeds.....

probably a stupid question lol.... but still....

arent they the same fish?FT


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## lil_flame33 (Mar 20, 2010)

so if the blue labs and the yellow labs are the same species with just different colors, would they actually be hybrids, after all if you have a brown pitbull and a white pitbull the puppies arent cross breeds.....

probably a stupid question lol.... but still....

arent they the same fish?


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

lil_flame33 said:


> so if the blue labs and the yellow labs are the same species with just different colors, would they actually be hybrids, after all if you have a brown pitbull and a white pitbull the puppies arent cross breeds.....
> 
> probably a stupid question lol.... but still....
> 
> arent they the same fish?


No, they're not the same fish. They're just called the same fish. What the dog world calls breeds, the cichlid world decided to call species. Its more analogous to crossing a poodle with a labrador. You still have a fertile dog, but its not a poodle, nor a lab, and you can not mate it with anything in order to get a poodle or a lab. If you mix a blue lab and a yellow lab (fish), you get neither a pure blue or pure yellow variant, but some kind of mix.

With crossing a brown pitbull, and a white pitbull, you get pitbull puppies, in which some are brown and some are white. When you breed these puppies, you can get more pitbulls that are either brown, or white. With fish, you can for example mix albino and normal varients of a species, assuming the albino is the naturally occuring variant at the same collection point. Just for example, lets take albino socolofi, and normal socolofi. If they are the same species, if you breed them together, the offspring should be either normal blue, or albino. And when the offspring breed, they will provide either normal blue or albino socolofi. The offspring are pure socolofi, and the second generation offspring are still pure socolofi. I don't know if this is really true for socolofi or not, just trying to make an example.

Going back to the yellow and blue labs, since they are not independant variants from the same collection point, mixing naturally in their environments, where either color can mate with either color and produce either color, they are essentially as different as a labrador and a poodle - you can breed them, but what you get are not labs nor poodles, and the offspring can never produce 2nd gen pure labs nor pure poodles.

IMO, all lake malawi cichlids are essentially the same species if they can breed together. Like with dogs, different geographical regions produced different variants, that overtime lead to predictable, reproducable matings - i.e. one dog breed will always produce the same breed as offspring. But a mastiff is different from a chihuahua just as a yellow lab is different from a venustus, and a black labrador is different from a black flat coated retriever, just as a yellow lab (fish) is different from a blue lab. However, a yellow labrador is different from a black labrador just as a blue socolofi is different from a true albino socolofi.

What are called "color morphs" in cichlids are not the same as "color morphs" in dogs. That is, yellow labradors and black labradors are different color morphs of the same breed - labradors. You can mix black and yellow, and get either black or yellow offspring. And these offspring produce either black or yellow offspring. Pure offspring. Yellow labs and blue labs (fish) are not different color morphs as defined by the dog breeding world - they are actually different breeds. When you mix yellow labs and blue labs, you do not get pure yellow or pure blue labs - you get some type of mix. Just as you get a mix if you mix two different dog breeds, and not pure versions of both or either.

All this being said, to the OP, its fine if you want to see how the two different variants interact, but they are different "breeds", essentially. They are closely related, as golden retrievers and flat coated retrievers are closely related, yet still different breeds. Essentially, its no different than seeing how yellow labs interact with any other mbuna "species" as defined by the cichlid world.

Think of it this way... humans have different variants, based on geography. Europeans/westerners/americans look different than africans, look different than middle easterns, look different than asians, look different than native americans, look different than hispanics , etc, etc. Heck, there are even differences between different subgroups within different regions. With humans, however, we have decided as a culture that it is immoral to segregate based on geographical variants. It is now ok for a white person and a black/asian/hispanic/etc/etc/ to form a couple and produce essentially what the cichlid community would consider a hybrid. This is a recent development. Its also a natural progression. Communication and transportation have eliminated the barriers that first led to the different human variants to form. If cichlids decided to build boats and highways and airplanes and the internet and could travel to anywhere in the lake and potentially mate with any other fish in the lake, then over a long period of time, eventually there would only be 1 variant in the lake, and all these other variants would disappear. The lake itself would become 1 geographical region. Just as, as the earth becomes more glabal, over a very long time, which could be thousands of years or more, I think you will see a trend where human geographical races will overtime disappear, as the whole earth itself becomes 1 geographical region, rather than many separate geographical regions separated by natural barriers.


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## lil_flame33 (Mar 20, 2010)

LOL! Thats funny.... You never know.... they are said to be the smartest fish........

but anyway.... thats a good discription and i kinda understand now.....


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## ai4no (Aug 27, 2010)

i really wanted to buy this kind of lab but i went to the site and found out that FedEx is unavailable to ship the fish to me... SUCKS!!!


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## 18fisher (Mar 2, 2006)

wow, i have these ,i did not think the guy i got them from was telling the truth but i quess he was,i have a male and female that are throwing out fry a a very fast rate,they are a very pretty blue,and behave just like the yellow ones,but they are always trying to crossbred.i was going to sell some but waited because wasnt sure of name.now i now,does anyone now of book or something that talks about them thks 18fisher :thumb:


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## TheFishFactory (Jan 28, 2010)

GaFishMan1181 said:


> I would give them a call. I only email people if they do not post a phone number or if i have tried several times to get them on the phone. I am sure they would be happy to fill your order.


then email wallmart, i'm sure they;ll reply straight away. :roll:

sometimes good things come to those who wait and bad to those that want NOW!!


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## Swifterz (Aug 3, 2009)

i have two huge Scolofi


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## TheFishFactory (Jan 28, 2010)

TheFishFactory said:


> GaFishMan1181 said:
> 
> 
> > I would give them a call. I only email people if they do not post a phone number or if i have tried several times to get them on the phone. I am sure they would be happy to fill your order.
> ...


sorry GaFishMan, I meant to quote the guy saying he had tried to email, not you!!


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## justflow1983 (Feb 26, 2007)

Rhinox said:


> No, they're not the same fish. They're just called the same fish. What the dog world calls breeds, the cichlid world decided to call species


That is patently false. An oscar and yellow lab are both cichlids, and yet they are definitely more loosely related than a couple of breeds of dog. If you want to use dogs as an example (and they're a great one, because they have similarly blurry genetics) then here is a better one. A chihuahua and a mastiff are breeds, which would be analagous to cichlid "morphs." These are members of the same species with a different appearance, due to some sort of genetic pressure. In fish it could be predators or isolation, in dogs its people looking for certain characteristics.

A species would be analagous to a dog and a coyote. They're related, they're similar genetically, and yet they are different enough that scientists would not consider themselves the same animal. They are separate species. On the other hand, their genetics are similar enough that, given the right circumstances, they can breed and produce offspring. Most of the time species cannot interbreed, but again the line can sometimes be blurry and you get hybrids.

Think of taxonomy as levels of relation. In a family, you get a big bunch of animals with general similarities. Within a genus, its pretty obvious they came from a common ancestor. I.e. _Canis lupus_ (wolf) _Canis latrans_ (coyote) _Canis aureus (_jackal). When you get to the species, this is where scientists consider them to be discrete populations that form a specific "type." Within that, you get subspecies, which is what a cichlid "morph" or a dog "breed" fits into. They still are largely the same as the rest of the species, but have some defining trait such as color or size that makes them a little different.

I'm not sure what constitutes the boundary between species and morph in cichlids, since fish genetics are a little blurrier and various species can definitely cross with each other. If I remember right it has to do with things like ecological niche, shape, number of teeth, number of fin rays, and other things like that. In the case of yellow and blue labs though, think of them as being about as different as redheads and brunettes in terms of genetic diversity, which is what makes them the same species.

Science tries to be cut and dry, while biology is really messy. Sometimes the difference between species and morph is a judgement call by some scientist who has studied these things a lot more than we have, and it just makes sense to take their word for it.

I hope there was some sort of clarity in that response.... however I DO think people need to be careful about how they understand these things.

On a side note, a hybrid between blue and yellow labs is still L. caeruleus, but its looked down upon as a mix just like a non pure-bred dog. The big difference is that in these fish this is a naturally ocurring variation that should probably not be messed with in order to preserve the biodiversity of the fish we keep in the hobby.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

The wikipedia article on this isn't a bad read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies

"The differences between subspecies are usually less distinct than the differences between species, but more distinct than the differences between races or breeds. The characteristics attributed to subspecies generally have evolved as a result of geographical distribution or isolation. "

A cichlid morph might be analogous to a race to my mind but not really to a sub-species .

Great posts on here though...

Justflow, I like this point you make:
"On a side note, a hybrid between blue and yellow labs is still L. caeruleus, but its looked down upon as a mix just like a non pure-bred dog. The big difference is that in these fish this is a naturally ocurring variation that should probably not be messed with in order to preserve the biodiversity of the fish we keep in the hobby."
:thumb:

definitely agree!


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## justflow1983 (Feb 26, 2007)

This part of that article is very relevant to this discussion:

"Note that the distinction between a species and a subspecies depends only on the likelihood that in the absence of external barriers the two populations would merge back into a single, genetically unified population. It has nothing to do with 'how different' the two groups appear to be to the human observer."

Thanks Number6!


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