# HELP - Three labs dead today, trying to save the other fish



## heyzeusbrains (Jul 12, 2011)

Setup: 38 gallon (36 inches long), 2 aqueon filters (one 30 and one 50), 7 yellow labs (now 5, two died today), 5 yellow-tail acei, all fish are approx. 3-4", tank has been running six months with no problems, no deaths until today...

Late last week I noticed several of the aceis had white spots on their eyes, so I purchased melafix to treat the tank. Did a 50% water change, and treated according to the instructions (daily doses, no additional water changes).

By day 3, I noticed the gills on all the fish appeared to be bloody (especially noticeable on the yellow labs), and the pop-eye appeared to be getting worse on the aceis (white film grew over entire eye and began to bulge out). I also noticed the white film appearing on the yellow labs' eyes.

So I did a pretty massive water change (at least 80%), vacuumed the sand, and treated with another dose of melafix. Also I cleaned out one of the filters and changed the filter pad (I have never cleaned the filters out since I had the tank, but I have rinsed out the pads several times). Was/am planning to do the other filter after a few days or a week. Also I took out about 70% of the rockwork, to facilitate frequent vacuuming until I get this problem worked out.

Next day woke up to a dead lab (that was this morning). Did a 50% water change and did NOT treat with melafix (I'm starting to think it's killing my fish).

And another dead lab this afternoon. My wife said all the living fish were at the top of the tank (gasping for air perhaps?) I rushed home from work, but when I arrived they are all just swimming around the lower reaches of the tank. But the fish do not look good. The pop eye looks worse, all the fishes eyes look bulgy, gills are still bloody... I just threw in a capful of prime because I don't know what else to do.

0 ammonia, 0 nitrites. Nitrates were initially above 20 when the problem was first observed but are down to almost nothing because of all the water changes.

This does not appear to be a biological filtration issue. Also I don't think the deaths were due to violence. The labs and aceis are pretty mellow, and the dad fish do not appear to be beat up or damaged. Here are my hypotheses:

1. Melafix is killing my fish. Maybe it reacted badly to some kind of bacteria in the tank - I've heard there are certain kinds that can feed off of it. The melafix did make the tank water appear slightly cloudly.

2. Could the fact I took out a lot of the rocks have to do with it? I realize that might lead to violence but I don't think that's what happened here. I also realize it could have affected the biological filtration with the removal of media (rocks), but all my readings appear to be good.

3. The fact that I cleaned one of the filters? There is another filter still going strong, and I was careful to preserve the filter media, and besides all readings are normal as indicated.

4. I realize overstocked conditions may have led to this problem in the first place, nitrates may have been running a little high (20-40 ppm before all the recent water changes). I have always done weekly 50% water changes, except for one week I missed a water change (and that was about 3 weeks ago)

5. I thought perhaps I was not using enough dechlorinator because I recently got a bigger bucket to use for water changes and have been estimating the amount of Prime (that's why I just added a capful), but the test strip reads 0 for chlorine, and I tend to be liberal with the Prime...

I am looking for help a) to save my remaining fish and b) to figure out what happened so I can avoid this in the future.

PS - a third dead lab was just identified and pulled from the tank. I hadn't seen her, and I found her body in a cave upon inspection. She was alive this morning...

BTW My ammonia test kit is a little beaker with drops, and the nitrate/nitrite/chlorine/etc. test is a 5 in one strip. PH is slightly over 7.5, water is "Very hard" and has a high alkalinity.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

I would try an antibiotic and if you can't get your hands on that try Malachite Green. I would prefere the former thou.

By the sounds of it you look after your tank well, so that would rule out poor water quality, thou i think test strips can be a problem.

Being that all fish are getting it I would maybe rule out agression, another cause of this.

My guess would be bacterial infection or maybe (its rarer) fungus. So the antibiotic should clear it up, thou it really depends on the damage already done.

Water quality is a big factor in making this get better, keep that water as clean as possible.

EDIT: I meant to mention, the other reaosn I think it is bacterial is you mentioned cloudy water. What melafix can do is feed bacteria, so seeing the water go cloudy after adding it can be a bad sign that you fed the bacteria causing a bloom. This could have been the cause for it spreading to your other fish.


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## heyzeusbrains (Jul 12, 2011)

Update:

The fish really perked up after I added the Prime. I also tested my tap water and no chlorine registered on the strip (I know the tap water here contains chloramines)...

Conclusion:

This has to have been chlorine poisoning... at the same time I added the melafix I used a much bigger bucket to fill the tank back up than usual, and I must not have used enough Prime.

Does anyone know, would bloody gills be consistent with death by chlorine?


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## st0rms (Nov 19, 2011)

Chlorine poisoned fish appear very stressed and how quickly they get sick and die depends on the level of chlorine in the water.

Affected fish may appear pale and covered in mucus. Some will exhibit hyperemia (redness) on various parts of their body and behaviorally, fish may be piping at the surface for air and swimming erratically.

This link will describe poison symptoms.

http://www.algone.com/aquarium-articles ... -poisoning


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## heyzeusbrains (Jul 12, 2011)

Update:

Fourth yellow lab was dead this morning.


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## st0rms (Nov 19, 2011)

Oh boy, ok well Melafix is not killing your fish. Do the fish still have popeye? Also do they still have a film over their eyes? If so this is a bacterial infection.

Melafix is a very mild medication and most of us in the hobby use this to help heal cuts and very minor issues. Sounds like you will need to break out something like tetracycline, or kanamycin. Photo's of a fish showing symptoms.

Tetracycline is a gram positive medication
Kanamycin is a gram negative medication.

It's important to know every symptom you are seeing before going to getting a strong antibiotic. Are the fish eating? If so if you live in a city with a good local fish store you can get medicated frozen food that will help jump start the treatment.

Also take some water with you to your local fish store and have them check your water. Sometimes testing strips and things of this nature can be inaccurate or out of date. Master test kits are pretty important to have.. More involved to use but way more accurate.

I read a lot of symptoms in your first post this makes me lean towards a gram positive infection. If there are any other symptoms please be sure to list them in one post so we can best help to try and save your fish. API makes TC Tetracyclin and this can get picked up in powdered form from any petsmart or petco. I would however suggest you take out decorations as this can stain things yellow. It will also leave a nasty yellow foam on top of the waters surface. This is normal just be sure to follow water changes as directed. It should not stain your silicon sealant on the tank.


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## heyzeusbrains (Jul 12, 2011)

stOrms - thank you for your response and assistance.

First symptom was a white spec in the eye of one of the acei. This quickly spread to the other fish. At this point I noticed there was a clear bubble around the outside of the eyes of all the fish. I am not sure if that clear bubble is the regular eye lense of the fish, or some kind of bacterial growth, but I saw the same type of clear bubble on some cichlids at the LFS. It's something you might never notice if you weren't looking for it.

The whiteness spread over this lense/bubble and began to protrude out in the center of the eye. Eventually the whiteness covered the entire eye and began to bulge out on some of the acei.

The eye issue has since spread to the labs, but not as severely.

Beginning with the water changes with the new bucket and addition of melafix, the labs began exhibiting redness at their gills and the base of their fins.

At this point, the remaining labs still have a little whiteness over the eyes - not as bad as the aceis. The bloody gills are not as visible on the acei, but they are red and bloody as well if you look close. Some of the eyes of the aceis appear a little better, one is still pretty bad e.g. white and bulging.

The fins of the labs appear to be streaked with blood. The fish are all sort of hovering in the right bottom corner of the tank (especially the labs). They are not "bottom sitting" but they are down low hovering... this is the same way the dead ones were behaving prior to being dead.

I fed the fish last night; all of them ate except for the one who was dead this morning (other three labs were already dead).

Last night after a double-dose of Prime they perked up so much, I was sure that it was a chlorine issue, so I added a dose of melafix last night to help them heal... this morning they are hovering near the bottom as stated.

The fish who was dead this morning was very bad off prior to the addition of the Prime (we were sure he was a goner) but perked up considerably last night... perhaps he was too far gone.

I just tossed some food their way to check their response; the aceis gobbled it up, the labs are not interested at this point. The aceis are apparently tougher than the labs.

About de-chlorinator... I use Seachem Prime. I calcluated the recommended dosage on the bottle to equal two drops per gallon, and I tend to use three or four.... I was previously filling the tank with a one gallon bottle (tedious!), so beginning with the addition of the melafix I began using a much larger bucket (approx. 8 gallons), and used about 15-16 drops of Prime per bucket...

I put the Prime into a different bottle with a dropper on it, and when I first started using Prime I checked to see how many drops it takes to fill the cap (which is supposed to treat 50 gallons), and I calculated 50 drops, that's how I worked this out....

I always put the Prime into the bucket first and then fill with tap water... I have checked the chlorine level with the tester strips shortly after water changes and they always came up white (zero), but after I checked the tap water last night and the strip came up white, I have concluded that the test strips are ineffective as regards to chlorine (maybe because I have chloramines?)...

I still suspect that as well as the bacterial infection, the fish have possibly succumbed to a low level chlorine poisoning...

Any guidance is very much appreciated!!!


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

Go out and buy Maracyn & Maracyn 2.
Use both medications concurrently.
Follow the directions to a T.

If you cannot get Maracn, try and get Seachem Kanaplex.

Also, add 2 table spoons per gallon of Aquarium Salt to your tank.
Dissolve the salt in Aquarium water first.
Try and add the total amout gradually over 48 hours.

HTH


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## st0rms (Nov 19, 2011)

Yes it's time for a strong antibody. Maracyn or tetracycline will help. With eye cloud / bleeding I would lean more towards the tetracycline since maracyn is a gram negative. Maracyn is a good medication but when treating gram negative you want to use kanamycin in high ph conditions. Most antibodics are effected by ph. Kanamycin is unaffected and t c Tetracyclin isn't effected as bad. I say gram positive due to the eye cloud.

I would use t. c. Tetracycline. It will tent the water yellow and will create a yellow foam over the water. Do the bi daily water changes and remove the foam then. Also remove decorations as it can stain those. I have never had it stain my silicone seals but I also have never treated my main tank. Only hospital tanks.

Adding salt also helps since it helps the fish breath and medications will rob the water of air. Salt can also draw out the fluid behind the eyes causing pop eye


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## st0rms (Nov 19, 2011)

One thing I forgot to mention is you can mix the tetracycline with a frozen food. Just thaw a little mix in the treatment and drop in the tank. What isn't eaten will dissolve in the tank and help treat and what is eaten will attack the infection quicker then just pouring it in.

Just use some common sence when doing this. You don't want to saturate the food in the medication. Just a little goes a long way. The are like kids. If they don't like the taste they will spit it out.


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## heyzeusbrains (Jul 12, 2011)

I'm not going to have time to seriously consider antibiotics until later so I performed 50% water change this morning, added salt and the melafix plus plenty of Prime...

the Aqueon 30 seems to have failed today so I am now running just the Aqueon 50 until I can repair or replace the other one.

Also a correction regarding the Prime, when I measured it out it was 100 drops per capful I think (not 50), anyway it worked out to two drops per gallon... based on one capful treating 50 gallons per the instructions...


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

heyzeusbrains said:


> I'm not going to have time to seriously consider antibiotics until later so I performed 50% water change this morning, added salt and the melafix plus plenty of Prime...
> 
> the Aqueon 30 seems to have failed today so I am now running just the Aqueon 50 until I can repair or replace the other one.
> 
> Also a correction regarding the Prime, when I measured it out it was 100 drops per capful I think (not 50), anyway it worked out to two drops per gallon... based on one capful treating 50 gallons per the instructions...


Time is key. Melafix and Prime will not cure your fish. Get the Antibiotics ASAP.
The fact that 50% of your filtration just died will make matter worse. Get another filter on there and buy some Cycle to give your bio filter a boost.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't find Melafix very effective except MAYBE for nips and a missing scale. And clean water seems just as good to me.

I think of Melafix for fish like aloe vera for humans. Can't hurt, but if you need chemotherapy, it's not going to cure you either.


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## heyzeusbrains (Jul 12, 2011)

I couldn't find an LFS open on Thanksgiving for the antibiotics. Sadly, the remaining three labs died during the night.

Just tested the water. No measurable ammonia or nitrite. Nitrates less than 20.

I was very fond of the labs... I don't have a real strong feeling about the aceis.

At this point I feel as if this was a lethal bacteria infection rather than a possible case of chlorine poisoning. Any comment on my Prime dosing levels would be appreciated.

Petco opens in about an hour so we'll see what happens...

I wasn't real worried about the one filter dying because I ran this tank on just the 30 for the first couple months without incident, before I added the aceis. I think I can repair it, but my tank is under the kitchen counter and I can't remove the filters without sliding the whole tank out (it's on a low stand), but I can't slide the tank out without taking the rocks out and dropping down the water level very low. I will do that in conjunction with a water change later this morning.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Yeah, to my knowledge if you add Melafix to a bacteria problem, you haven't got a lot of time to get some antibiotics in the tank. Sad that your LFS wasn't open to help 

The aceis prob already had a fair few antibodies working on its bacteria from the minor infection before you added the melafix, so the bloom prob would have effected him less since he was already dealing with it. The Labs I am affraid would have been bombarded with all the new bacteria and not being sick before that they hadn't anything in the system to fight it yet 

Really sorry to hear about your labd, I love my labs too


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## heyzeusbrains (Jul 12, 2011)

@ Nodalizer

So are you confirming that the bad bacteria can feed off the melafix, leading to a bloom?

If this is the case why in the world would anyone recommend melafix for a bacteria infection?

Everything seemed to blow up after adding the melafix so what you are saying makes sense to me...

But others have assured that the melafix is safe...


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

heyzeusbrains said:


> @ Nodalizer
> 
> So are you confirming that the bad bacteria can feed off the melafix, leading to a bloom?
> 
> ...


It sounds as if you had a problem before using melafix, and perhaps it was not strong enough to correct the problem at that point.

Honestly, it sounds like you had a water quality related disease. How often were you changing the water in this tank before the problem started? It is a very small tank for that fish load, and would need really frequent changes.

I tried melafix 2 for popeye and it wasn't effective and I found Furan 2 worked better, but I also isolated the sick fish and increased the dosage, changing water daily.

It's true that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.


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## heyzeusbrains (Jul 12, 2011)

I realize there was a problem prior to adding the melafix. But it seems as if rather than helping, the melafix may have possibly made things considerably worse.

I also realize at this point that the infection probably began as a result of overcrowded conditions. I have over 10x filtration and I was doing at least 50% weekly water changes. I thought I was OK but I know the stocking level would have been frowned upon here.

But I still feel like this was a minor infection (all the threads I read about eye cloud indicated that melafix and lots of water changes would do the trick) and something happened that accelerated it out of control.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

API itself says melfix will only kill certain species of bacteria and fungus. And suspecting this was an internal/extrernal bacteria myself, Melafix wouldn't have cured that. But even external bacteria might not have been effected by Melafix. Now it is by no means a dangerous medication. And the fact you had a bacteria bloom does not mean that the next time you see eye cloud you should shy away from this if it has been your medication of choice thus far. If indeed the cloudy water was bacteria or a bacterial bloom, then on best assumptions the cause is most likely melafix, but not because it had any harmful ingredients, but just because it has oil that some bacteria likes to feed off.

This artical has some good references on why in some rare cases Melafix and Pimafix can infact feed bacteria if it is not effected by the cure. http://theaquariumwiki.com/Melafix and http://theaquariumwiki.com/Pimafix

In my honest opinion I would say you was unlucky for melafix to do what it did, but it does happen from time to time, I stopped using oil based cures a long time ago for bacterial problems because of the feeding effect that can happen on the odd time. I would say in the case an injured/damaged fish, I would use this in a heartbeat myself if I had no better. I only shy away form it when bacteria is concerned.


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## heyzeusbrains (Jul 12, 2011)

Update:

One of the aceis passed away last night. I started Maracyn treatement on the four remaining aceis today. They are accepting small amounts of food.

Meanwhile there has been an alarming development. I noticed a lot of tiny white particles in the water. Not sure what they are, but as I was observing these up close, I also noticed there are numerous tiny little floating worms in the tank. They are as big around as a thin piece of thread and about half of a centimeter long. You wouldn't know they were alive except every few seconds they wriggle furiously. As I watched, two were eaten by the aceis. They resemble mosquito larva and I only see them floating in the water, not on the substrate...


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

heyzeusbrains said:


> Update:
> 
> One of the aceis passed away last night. I started Maracyn treatement on the four remaining aceis today. They are accepting small amounts of food.
> 
> Meanwhile there has been an alarming development. I noticed a lot of tiny white particles in the water. Not sure what they are, but as I was observing these up close, I also noticed there are numerous tiny little floating worms in the tank. They are as big around as a thin piece of thread and about half of a centimeter long. You wouldn't know they were alive except every few seconds they wriggle furiously. As I watched, two were eaten by the aceis. They resemble mosquito larva and I only see them floating in the water, not on the substrate...


When I read your first post on this thread, I wondered if it might be a severe outbreak of ich. To know for sure, you might need to hear from some more experienced experts, but if you start treating for ich now, by simply using heat and salt, it probably couldn't hurt, and may save your remaining fish.

If you want to do that. Turn up the heat to 88 F and add two tablespoons of epsom salt per 5 gallons of water. Keep these conditions until 4 or 5 days after all symptoms disappear. Also, keep good circulation and surface agitation at all times to assure plenty of oxygen, as warm water can lose oxygen faster.

Also, you can read up on the ich treatment in the library http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ich.php

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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

heyzeusbrains said:


> They are as big around as a thin piece of thread and about half of a centimeter long. You wouldn't know they were alive except every few seconds they wriggle furiously. As I watched, two were eaten by the aceis. They resemble mosquito larva and I only see them floating in the water, not on the substrate...


Sounds like nematodes and most are not harmful. You get them if you don't vacuum the substrate well enough. Then when the substrate is disturbed, they wriggle in the water column as you describe and the fish eat them.

Do a deep substrate vac for a couple of weeks during your weekly PWC and they should disappear.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Ich is often caused by stress, so its totally possible you now have ich if you have tiny roundish particals. The original problem was not described like ich, its was a white spot on the eye and spreading to the other areas and fish after melafix was added, definetely a bacterial infection.

As for the long small white worms, they come more often then not from uneaten food and the like in your tank substrate as DJRansome said.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*heyzeusbrains*
Have you ever checked the pH of your tap water immediately after it comes out of the tanp and then again after 24 hours?

The reason i ask is that anytime i see a smart aquarist get a tank full of sick fish and they start losimg fish despite their treatmentof thetank it is when they began treating for a secondary infection and completely missed the original problem in the tank. In your case, i think the tank and your tap water afe O2 deficient. Goop like melafix makes an O2 problem instantly worse....

Slap an airstone in their right now and do a alarge water change. I am willing to bet that the fish will startto show some signs of recovery quickly.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

Number6 said:


> Slap an airstone in their right now and do a alarge water change. I am willing to bet that the fish will startto show some signs of recovery quickly.


 Fantastic idea.


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## heyzeusbrains (Jul 12, 2011)

Today is Day 4 of the Maracyn treatment and the remaining four acei seem to be recovering. Their gills and fins are no longer bloody, and today the eye cloud seems to be almost gone. I have not done any water changes during the treatment. Planning to do a large water change on Thursday after the last day of the treatment, and clean out the other filter. I will probably not elect for a second round of treatment as I am already overbudget on fish expenses this month.

Funny thing about the worms is that I have never seen them in or on the substrate. They seem to wriggle their way upwards to the top of the tank. They float at the surface for a short period before they are pushed down back to the bottom of the tank with the current of the filters. Before they hit the bottom, they begin wriggling their way back up again... and eventually one of the aceis spots them (at least I know their eyes are OK) and eats them. It looks like they're coming out of the one filter that needs to be cleaned, but I can't be sure, maybe I'm just seeing them get pushed down by the filter flow...

I have seen an outbreak of ich (or so I thought) at an LFS. It looked like tiny white dots all over the bodies of the fish. My fish have not shown anything like that. There are however numerous tiny white particles in the water, in addition to the tiny swimming worms. I first noticed this a couple days after adding the melafix. Prior to starting the Maracyn treatment I had added the equivalent of at least two tablespoons of salt per five gallons. My temperature is currently 80 degrees, I am contemplating turning the heat up for a few days but I really don't know if the white particles in the water are ich-related. Will turning up the water to 88 degrees (not even sure my tank will get that hot) effect the fish in a bad way at all considering everything else that's going on? I haven't really given the white particles much thought because the tank looks like a snow globe after I add the Maracyn anyway.

I just tested my tank water as well as my tap water. The PH appears to be the same (approx. 7.8). What does that say about my oxygen levels? I have never felt it necessary to get an airstone because the two filters put out a pretty good flow, but I will see about picking one up. Sounds like a good idea.

Wish I had started the Maracyn treatment earlier... I miss my labs! Thanks to everyone for the ongoing support and assistance.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

The white particals might be nothing much to worry about, I would add some salt when you change the water, I wouldn't go right into a full heat ich treatment unless you notice the fish flashing. If it is ich they are free swimming and the salt has/will kill them off most likely, the temp raise is used more for making them free swim.

Oxygen effects ph: lack of it = lower ph, higher = more ph.

Glad your fish are looking healthy.


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