# All black front



## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

I just saw a tank today that had a fish in it that I swear is a frontosa but it's completly jet black from tip of the nose to the tail. Do these exist?? it's around 5" and looks completly like a front except of course for the coloring. It's kept with mbuna. I may be able to trade some labs for it.
Thanks in advance for your help :thumb:


----------



## joesfish (Mar 29, 2004)

When a Front gets stressed out they can turn completely black, I had a Nangu many years ago that was completely black and would never change back. Does the Front look like it's acting healthy, eating and swimming well. Most of us would be afraid of the Front being sick or very aggressive, thats what a black Front most of the time means.

After having a completely black Nangu I realized that some Fronts will turn black and be healthy without aggression issue's, but thats the only one I have seen. I have only seen about 4 completely black Fronts in person, two where sick, one would kill everything in the tank, and the other one was mine. If he is in good health and with other fronts then I would buy him for myself. I kind of miss the one I had and only got rid of him during a rough patch I had many years ago. I have looked for some completely black Fronts but never had any luck. Just to let you know alot of people might give you a hard time having a black front and think it's a trick, that the Front has a problem, or that it gets lighter, but mine never had any problems and never got light.

I say be careful, but if it's like the one I had I wouldn't think twice about buying him


----------



## Charles (Feb 25, 2003)

I see a few black burundi as well. Usually is sick one but 1 health fish will kill just about anything else in the tank.


----------



## tirzo13 (May 26, 2004)

Its 2 things.
1. Frontosa communicate by coloration. Dark usually means sick or dominant, though not all sick or dominant fish get dark. 
2. Its hypermelanistic. It was born with more melanin then most, kind of the opposite of albinism.

back to number 1, color has to do with 2 processes in this example, chromatophores which are more like the quick on and off coloration of fish, such as when males are courting, and the melanocytes which are more permanent.

so he could be both communicating, and have permanent black coloring at the same time.


----------



## BRANT13 (Feb 18, 2009)

very interesting :thumb:


----------



## joesfish (Mar 29, 2004)

Have you gone back to see him again and studied him more? If he is without light for a few days he might get his color back, but mine never did. How long has the owner had this Front and what Variant does he think it is? I would suggest to the owner to leave the tank dark and see if the color comes back. Are you planning on buying him, I know from experience that it's really hard to take pics of an all black Front, but I'd like to see some.


----------



## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

The owner says this fish has always been black. It's in with mbuna and isn't the largest or most agressive fish in the tank. He/She Looks a little picked on but healthy. I would be putting it in with haps and peacocks is this a bad idea???


----------



## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

Oh and the owner has no idea what it is and it's the only one of it's kind in the tank.


----------



## joesfish (Mar 29, 2004)

Being that he is in with Mbuna and fish larger then him he could be under a lot of stress and might change when moved to another tank. How big is he? Haps can be ok and they are better then having him with Mbuna. Alot depends on what size tank you have and the size of all the fish.


----------



## football mom (Feb 19, 2006)

I had a male Barundi front that I bought at about 3/4 inch, and kept until he was larger than my hand. When it was in the 90 gallon with the other fish, he was very normal colored and very attractive. After several years of keeping this fish, I moved him to a 55 with a black background. He was the only fish in the tank. The fish turned almost completely black. It wasn't sick, just stressed out, I guess.


----------



## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

My fish and tank are much larger than what this fish would be coming from. The tank this call it 5" black front is in is a 55-75g my tank is a 255g. My haps are starting to hit the 8" mark and will get much larger than the red top that is the largest and dominant fish in it's current tank. I can agree with it being black from stress but would this happen for several years?? I think the owner mentioned it's been like that for years. 
I will try to get this fish even if in the end I don't keep it. If it's a front it should be in a bigger happier tank.


----------



## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

If it is a nangu or a burundi how big should I expect it to get?? I do have a couple of smaller fish in my tank (max out at 4") and I know fronts can hit the 16" mark.


----------



## joesfish (Mar 29, 2004)

Is the black front only 5 inches? How old is he saying the Front is and what sex? A male Front about 5" could be only 1.5 years old and a female around 2-3 years old. So I don't think it's been black for several years. I really would think a male would turn black like that, but I guess if it's a female at about 5 inch it couldn't be any older then 4 years and might only reach a size of 8 inches. If it is a male then it's no older then 2 years and should reach a size of 12". Alot depends on what tank the Front has been kept in and tank mates. If the Front has not developed properly then who knows what size it might grow, could be very small in the Front world.

I have to say that the Front I owned was a WC and was not tanked raised. The Front you are looking at buying is tank raised and may not have been taken care of so it will most likely change to a lighter color once sold and put in a healthy enviorment. Dark backgroubd and substract will make most Fronts darken up some. If you put other Fronts in with him then that might help with him lightening up.

If I was to guess I would say you have a female Zambian or Burundi type that will only get about 8 inches and will most likely change color once put in a healthy enviorment.

If it was me I wouldn't pay any more then what a Zambian would cost in your area. If the seller is trying to charge an outrages price, I would use the Money to buy an awsome looking Mpimbwe or Zaire.

I have heard of many stories of black Fronts over the years and only have seen what I would call one true black Front. In most cases I think the front is stressed and needs saved from it's current enviorment.

I think that if you go in with the attitude that this Front is not healthy and try to give it a healthy enviorment then you will be happy if he changes and gets his color back. If you buy him thinking he will stay black then you might be very disapointed.

That being said a healthy enviorment to me is without Malawians and other non Tang species. The Front should be kept in a colony of at least 4 and in a 6 foot tank. Now others are going to say that you can keep one Front in a smaller tank and with Haps, we all know that this can be done, but I don't think this is healthy and best for this Front.


----------



## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

Thanks joesfish. I'm not buying this fish I would be trading for some of my yellow labs etc.
This fish isn't from a dealer but from a coworkers brother who doesn't really know much about it. Me putting this fish in with my haps would be way better for it. Not knowing exactly what front this is could make it harder to keep with others of its own kind.


----------



## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

Well I now own this black front and yes it is a front. I stopped by my LFS and the owner hadn't seen anything like it (and wanted it) Its been in my tank for about an hour now. When I dropped it in it got faint white stripes right away but they seem to be turning black again. It looks a little stressed still. I guess this front isn't used to be checked out without being bitten like in it's last tank.


----------



## joesfish (Mar 29, 2004)

Thats awsome, if it was me I would leave the lights off for at least a few days and let it relax. If you see that it gets lighter then you might want to try and only use moon light to help with the stress. If you leave the light off for a couple of weeks and he doesn't get his color back then you might have a rare find. To me it's like finding an albino, not to many out there. I really hope this guy is one, I really liked mine. What is your substract color and background, dark colors will not help with lightening him up.

Just a note: Mine only lighten up just enough to know that he had strips only when i took him out bof the tank. I had a colony and only the alpha male was solid black. The fish was pitch black all the time and when i took him out his strips went from pitch black to black, just enough to see a difference.

I'm excited you have to let me know if your fish stays that way. I know it is extremely hard to tak pics of a solid black fish, but if you could I might be able to tell if it's Burundi, Zaire, Tanz and Zambia type. thats the best i think your going to get and thats going to be hard with room for error.


----------



## Ron R. (Oct 21, 2003)

I bought my wc moba colony from TNT Cichlids almost 5 years ago. They spawned about 3-4 months afterwards.

I have a jet-black female. I call her my black moba momma. Here are a few pics of her:









This is the color she is 99% of the time.









Here's a pic of her holding eggs. This is the lightest color she has been. You can notice what should be blue stripes.









Another pic of her holding a mouthful of eggs.









Another spawn.









a close up shot with her tube down

I almost lost her 5 mos ago due to her being egg-bound. She was one of those fish that you know is not going to make it, but you try your hardest to cure them. Epsom salt and melafix did the trick. I didn't think she would ever spawn again, but she has. She usually produces 30-38 fry every spawn.









These are some of her babies


----------



## joesfish (Mar 29, 2004)

Very nice Ron, thats how mine looked only I had a male. Your fry never carried the black trait, right? I also had the light color substract and background, but he always stayed black. Thats awsome, wish I could find another one.

Man how did you get great pics of her, I could never get them but I have trouble with all my pics. lol

If you ever want to sell let me know


----------



## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

Thanks for the pics RonR.
Mine is actually darker than your front. It only gives the slightest hint of barring and all its fins are jet black aswell. Time will tell if it stays that way.


----------



## joesfish (Mar 29, 2004)

BenHugs said:


> Thanks for the pics RonR.
> Mine is actually darker than your front. It only gives the slightest hint of barring and all its fins are jet black aswell. Time will tell if it stays that way.


I'm sure his is solid black until the flash from the camera. I didn't even know mine had strips until I took a picture, then I saw a faint blue maybe a little less then the pic Ron posted. Thats a pretty nice fish.


----------



## Ron R. (Oct 21, 2003)

joesfish said:


> Very nice Ron, thats how mine looked only I had a male. Your fry never carried the black trait, right? I also had the light color substract and background, but he always stayed black. Thats awsome, wish I could find another one.
> 
> Man how did you get great pics of her, I could never get them but I have trouble with all my pics. lol
> 
> If you ever want to sell let me know


No, no fry have ever come out jet-black, but when you look at fry from 2 of my other wc moba mommas, my black moba momma's fry have a richer blue coloring and the darkest solid stripes I've seen on F1 fry.

You are right on the flash bringing out the lighter stripes. She looks jet-black to the naked eye.

I figure she was almost mature when I got her so that would make her around 3 years old and I've had her for almost 5 years now...............being wc my guess she is at least 8 years old and still spawning. She is almost 8" long now.

I wish I could find a wc black moba male to see if I could get a few jet-black fry. My alpha male is over 12+" so he would have to be a big boy or I would have to get rid of my alpha to give it a go.


----------



## joesfish (Mar 29, 2004)

The black male I had sold in about 2003 and he was WC Nangu. I don't know of anyone else that has a black Front, but your right that it would be nice to find a male to breed them. I am going to keep my eye out for a black Moba male for you. That would really make my day if we found one for you.


----------



## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

I've been at work for two days (sucks but the moneys good). I can't comment on how this fish looks right now but I just talked to the previous owner who said he's had it for about 4 years. It's about 5-6" which seems a little small for a front of this age. I'm thinking female????


----------



## joesfish (Mar 29, 2004)

Ya most likely a female, let us know how it goes.


----------

