# Water perimeters for convicts/firemouths/jacks



## Doyoulikefishsticks (Jan 10, 2013)

I've tried searching the forums and haven't had much luck finding the information I need. Could be my lack of ability to search thoroughly or lack of patience. Anyway I know a lot of you know what I want to know! So I thought I would just ask. I would like to find out what the water perimeters for convicts, firemouths, jacks are. I have three convicts (Including fry) three firemouths and three jack dempesys in the tank with africans. I know its not the best mix, which is why I need to find out what is best for the CA cichlids. Could someone please give me the info on water hardness/temp/pH for these guys? I want to try and balance it the best I can for both CA and Africans until I can rehome some of the CA's. :thumb:


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

I keep only ca/sa species. Most should be in a pH range of 6.8 - 7.2 sometimes 7.4. My tap water is 7.0-7.1 so I dont even mess with it. Temp 72-80 depending on the fish. I do 74 nights 76 days. I can't say for Africans nor have I kept them


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## daharmon1 (Jan 21, 2013)

Convicts are extremely hardy, and firemouths and jacks are pretty tolerant of different pH's as well. Firemouths in the wild come from a pH of 7.5 or a little higher and moderate hardness. The natural range for Convicts is 6.6-7.8. Temp around 78 should be fine. Just find a new home for the CA's soon. They will be fine in that water.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Most CA cichlids are not too particular about water chemistry. Most important to keep water parameters stable and keep disolved wastes and nitrate as low as possible. That said, most CA cichlids come from alkaline waters that are often moderate to very hard, and are likely to do well in this kind of water.

Here's a link to an article on firemouths http://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=7 This is a qoute from this link: "Water measurements in the Thorichthys meeki habitat can be expected to show alkaline readings whith pH readings over 8.0 and hardness levels from hard to very hard."

Although this is not an article on JD and FM, but rather salvini, it lists cichlid species that are sympatric( found in the same waters) to salvini . Both JD and FM are found in many of the same water bodies as salvini. http://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=7This is a quote from this link: "Water chemistry is always on the alkaline side, with pH measurements over 7.5 and values up to 8.0 or more not being unusual. Hardness shows the widest variation from relatively soft waters (8* DH) to very hard waters (>50* DH)."

Convicts are found over a very wide range in Central America form many different water bodies. A few years back i did look specifically at lake Nicaragua, the largest lake in CA, from which convicts are found in. I looked at over 5 academic papers on water quality. Read through a lot of info that did not concern me, to find actual readings taken from Lake Nicargua. Not somebodies made-up fish profile but ACTUAL readings taken from the lake for scientific purposes. All studes showed pH in the range of 7.8 to 8.8 and water that was moderately hard. One study had readings for every single month of the year, at a number of locations from the lake. I don't have any links; I did save them in my favorite on my old computer but am not about to spend the many hours it took me, to find them again.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Oops! Mis qouted the the firemouth article. Should say: ""Water measurements in the Thorichthys meeki habitat can be expected to show alkaline readings with PH in many cases over 8.0 and hardness levels from hard to very hard."

Oops, wrong link for the salvini article. Posted the FM link again,by accident instead. Here's the right one:http://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=109
Tried to edit, but was too late.


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

Think There was a discussion a year or 2 ago on here about in the wild pH, and other water parameters. Though those readings are from the wild, his ca/as fish are probably not, and have been conditioned, and breed in a softer pH realm which they also prefer for spawning in the wild. So my question would be for intellectual sake would captive breed fish be better off in the pH realm they've probably been raised in or do you bring the pH into the wild readings? What are the pro's and cons ?


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

CrypticLifeStyle said:


> would captive breed fish be better off in the pH realm they've probably been raised in or do you bring the pH into the wild readings?


There is seldom any reason to alter the water chemistry for most CA cichlids. Local water conditions are usually more then fine, even if they are not "ideal" based on the water chemistry of their origin. I supose if you had water that was so soft that it was difficult to keep it stable, then maybe there would be reason to add calcium, other minerals ect.

But a lot of places through out North America already have hard water with high pH ......ideal for most CA cichlids.


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

So I guess the next question to the op is what's the pH of your water out of the tap?


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## Doyoulikefishsticks (Jan 10, 2013)

Thanks for all the info so far. Yeah, sorry it would have been useful to post that information first. Temp is 78 degrees. Right now my pH is 7.6. But, the high range pH reads 7.4. Considering those two results, I'm not really sure what to consider my actual pH is? KH is at 6 drops. So thats about 100ppm which would be considered relatively hard right? But not like very hard. I know thats a little low for my africans but seems about right for the CA's. GH is 320ppm or so. Ammonia/nitrites are at zero. Nitrate is probably 20-40ppm. I'll do another 10% water change today or tomorrow.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Doyoulikefishsticks said:


> I know thats a little low for my africans


Why would you supose that???

I'm asuming your "Africans" are likeley lake Malawi cichlids. Read through this: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/lakes_east_africa.php
Quote from lake malawi section: " with a total hardness of 4.0 - 6.0 dH". Compare that to the salvini article in wich water bodies in C.A, were tested at 8.0 DH to 50.0+ DH !! Water bodies from which FM and JD come from.

Far, far too much has been made about water chemistry of lake Malawi! :x :x :x :x No big deal about lake Malawi water. It's fairly high pH and moderately hard. So what!!!!

Never mind about pH. Seldom matters. Hardness sometimes matters. But for CA and lake malawi cichlids as long as you can maintain stable water chemistry.....don't concern yourself with it!

If you are really concerned with water quality look at Nitrogen as a measure of your water quality. In terms of parts per million, using an aquarium test kit, ammonia and nitrite should measure zero. Nitrate should be 20ppm or lower before a water change...the lower the better.


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

I was going to say, unless your tap pH is extremely high/low just use as is. Constant water adjusting causes a lot of stress on fish, opposed to tinkering with it all the time.


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## Doyoulikefishsticks (Jan 10, 2013)

So, water parameters (By the way I just now noticed I wrote perimeters in the topic title...whoops :lol: ) for CA's are actually similar to the parameters for Lake Malawi cichlids, and CA's are very adaptable...I hope I'm not opening up a can of worms, but so what then is the fundamental reasoning for not keeping them together? Is it really just a minor issue without any real health impacts for the fish?


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## Doyoulikefishsticks (Jan 10, 2013)

Just want to add to my above post: OTHER than potential crossbreeding? Can CA's breed with lake Malawi species?


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Doyoulikefishsticks said:


> OTHER than potential crossbreeding? Can CA's breed with lake Malawi species?


No they can not. Has not been shown to be possible. Either extremely unlikely or impossible.

There are various reasons why some aqaurists do not like mixing the two. For some aqaurists a biotope is the ideal. From this perspective, you have to keep fishes collected from the same water body; should even be from the same location and occupy the same niche as adults. Of course few aquariums live up to this ideal eg. Even mbuna from different parts of lake malawi strays from this ideal, let alone fish from other continents such as BN plecos.

The predictability of outcomes is difficult to say with many cichlids. Not the same thing stocking auratus or kenyi with the rainbow cichlid, as it is stocking with salvini. The CA, if not dominant, need to at least hold their own. Stocking numbers; you need enough to distribute aggression but maybe not so many as in many rift lake cichlid tanks, especially if you have a breeding pair of substrate spawners in the tank. A lot of aquarists are not that familiar with such stocking.....don't have long term experience mixing the two. The cichlid hobby has been dominated by rift lake cichlids; less reason for rift lake cichlid keepers to mix becuase of the multitude of choices from the African lakes and a greater success of controlling aggression by overstocking.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

to much analyzing. i agree with everything said thus far. however, its about keeping it constant. they will adapt to parameters of most water( within reason ) the key is to keep it constant. water always wants to go back to its original state. if u are doung things to alter it you will fight a constant battle of fluctuation. this is very stressful to any fish. make sure to keep it constant which is obtained by not messing with it in first place.


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