# My new 50 gal setup, new to cichlids



## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

Hello all. I just completed a 50 gallon corner tank build and wanted to share it. I haven't kept fish in nearly 20 years and am totally new to cichlids, but I'm looking forward to the challenge.

There are some pics below of the completed build. I built the sump and plumbing system. I had extremely limited space in my corner stand so took up as much of it as I possibly could. Sump is a total of 14 gallons plus I have the small reactor that I built into the piping.

I just filled the tank yesterday. I'm planning to do a fishless cycle with stability. I also dosed the tank with pure ammonium, it's currently sitting at 4 ppm ammonia, just waiting now (which I hate doing). I'm also running a little carbon in the reactor.

If you have any suggestions please don't hesitate! I'm not sure yet what type of cichlids to get. I do know that I want some cobalt blues.


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## Larry R (Jan 24, 2017)

I've been keeping tropical fish on and off for 30 years and I learn something new here everyday. Superb set up, especially the under tank plumbing which I already have some ideas from, thanks for sharing, looks like a first class operation! Can't wait to see the fish!


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## tanker3 (May 18, 2015)

1) Nice set-up. Looks good.
2) Bad news, your tank looks only about 36" long. a little too short for Cobalts that can grow to 5" long.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

I have a question for you guys: I bought cichlid lake salt to put in my water once I get the fish. But I was just wondering if it makes any difference to have the salt in the water during the cycling process...does it make any difference with the types of bacteria or growth rates?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

What are your test results for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, KH and GH. You may not need cichlid salt.

It will be important to figure out your stocking before deciding because as tanker3 mentioned...you may not have many options from Lake Malawi. What are the dimensions of your tank?


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

I just started cycling two days ago.

Ammonia 2 ppm
No Nitrites or Nitrates yet
pH is 8.2 and will stay there because of the sand I have and the water here in upstate NY is almost 8.0 right out of the tap
I don't have a tester for KH or GH, I'll buy one though

My tank is basically triangular, the two even sides are 24" and the front is around 34" I think, it isn't straight though, its a pentagon.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Stock it like a 24" tank. Sounds like your water is fine and no need for cichlid salts at all.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

I just measured, its 38" across the front.

I've been browsing the selection on liveaquaria.com and I'm thinking about getting the following once my tank has fully cycled:

(1) Cobalt Blue
(1) Red Zebra
(1) Electric Yellow or Yellow Peacock
(1) Demasoni


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> Stock it like a 24" tank. Sounds like your water is fine and no need for cichlid salts at all.


My understanding is that the cichlid salts aren't just for general water quality adjustments but also provide other minerals and elements for the fish. I'm just wondering what it will do during the cycling process. I already bought it so I might as well use it, even if its only small doses.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

That's marketing, LOL. I don't think it will impact the cycling process. Make sure it does not increase your KH and GH and pH more than you want.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

gillmanjr said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> > Stock it like a 24" tank. Sounds like your water is fine and no need for cichlid salts at all.
> ...


Here's the problem with this line of thinking - in addition to the aspect that DJR mentioned (likely no real need):

If you acclimate your fish to this addition to their water, then, to be consistent, you are essentially setting up a situation where you need to accommodate that alteration on an ongoing basis ...

IOW: to provide consistent water parameters, you need to be adding it to the replacement water you provide during partial water changes.

Furthermore, unless you have had your water tested, how do you know that it's actually deficient in anything the cichlid salts would provide ?

Just some food for thought.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

wryan said:


> gillmanjr said:
> 
> 
> > DJRansome said:
> ...


I realize that there is no real need, just as there is no real NEED to have pH levels above 8.0 for cichlids, they will do just fine in neutral pH water. Thats not the point. Everything I've read about the salt, not only just from Seachem but also the thousands of people that use it, is that the stuff works and adds a little something to the water. Given the cost of it, which is $13 for 500 grams (enough to last me YEARS at the tiny dosages required), if there is any chance of my cichlids being healthier, happier, or more vibrant as a result of having these minerals in the water, I'll take that chance.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Much of what the commercial salts add are sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). For people who have pH-KH-GH issues I would suggest baking soda instead of the commercial product to increase pH and/or KH. Or Epsom salts to increase GH.

For you...you already have a high stable pH and then adding the commercial product could double up on something you already have.

If you like the idea of adding the trace minerals and the commercial product does not alter your test results, then congrats for being a concerned fishkeeper.

I do like to have the pH-KH-GH in the range of the lake, I agree with you there. I always worry what if my water already HAS the trace minerals (there is no test for this). I don't want to take a chance on adding something that could do more harm than good, no matter how slight.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

I added the lake salt last night, but only half the dose required to replicate the Lake Victoria levels, which is the smallest dose to begin with (2.5 teaspoons per 50 gallons). I'm going to run another pH test later and see what effect that had.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Make sure you test GH and KH.

And if you are not doing Rift Lake Cichlids due to the length of your tank (24") then you may not want the trace minerals from those lakes.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> Make sure you test GH and KH.
> 
> And if you are not doing Rift Lake Cichlids due to the length of your tank (24") then you may not want the trace minerals from those lakes.


I have to buy the testers for hardness. I am getting Mbunas. I measured the front of my tank, its 38". And I'm not going to stock it heavily, probably only 4 fish.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

When measuring the front of the tank, did you chop off the angled ends? You have 38" just on the flat front panel?

Stick with small, peaceful mbuna (might want to avoid cobalts a.k.a. Metriaclima callainos). If you do with Chindongo (formerly Pseudotropheus) saulosi, you could make 3m:9f work. Other small, peaceful species could work with one male and a bunch of females.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> When measuring the front of the tank, did you chop off the angled ends? You have 38" just on the flat front panel?
> 
> Stick with small, peaceful mbuna (might want to avoid cobalts a.k.a. Metriaclima callainos). If you do with Chindongo (formerly Pseudotropheus) saulosi, you could make 3m:9f work. Other small, peaceful species could work with one male and a bunch of females.


No the 38" includes the angles at the ends which are 4" each, so the straight part is 30"

I appreciate the advice and help but I think I'm going take my chances with the selections I've made. I've read about those particular species, including on this forum, and it seems that a lot of people keep them and don't have issues with aggression (I'm specifically referring to a Cobalt, Red Zebra, Electric Yellow, and Red Peacock). Plus the rockwork I've setup includes four distinct and isolated caves that could be used as territories and I plan to add some additional rock work prior to stocking. If I have any issues with aggression I'll re-evaluate. I can always remove the troublemakers and bring them over to my local shop, which is right down the road from me. I'm really shooting for an all male tank with 4 fish, perhaps 5 tops. I have read that keeping a smaller number of cichlids can make them more aggressive but I'm hoping the layout of my tank plus having all different species will minimize it.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

I have another question for you:

I know that cichlids require much more filtration in general than typical freshwater fish. Assuming that I get the ones I've selected, which would mean a maximum fully grown size of 5" each, so 20" total of fish, how much K1 media would you suggest I have in my sump and what flowrate do you suggest through the display tank? The K1 section of my sump is 12x12" and 16" high but is only filled to about 14",which is about 9 gallons. How much K1 do you think I should have in there? I also have additional space in the bottom of my intake section, under the filter pads, that I could keep another 8X4" bag of bio media, such as ceramic rings, if necessary.

My return pump is 780 gph, subtract the head loss and flowrate through my reactor and there is somewhere around 500 gph through my display tank. Do you think that is sufficient?


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

I've been browsing the selection of cichlids on <vendor name removed> and have changed some of my picks, I was wondering what you guys think about this stock for my tank (1 of each):

Pseudotropheus Elegans Msuli (yellow tail acei)

Labidochromis caeruleus (yellow lab)

Labidochromis caeruleus (Nkhata Bay) (White Lab)

Metriaclima Callainos (cobalt)


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

gillmanjr said:


> I realize that there is no real need, just as there is no real NEED to have pH levels above 8.0 for cichlids, they will do just fine in neutral pH water. Thats not the point. Everything I've read about the salt, not only just from Seachem but also the thousands of people that use it, is that the stuff works and adds a little something to the water. Given the cost of it, which is $13 for 500 grams (enough to last me YEARS at the tiny dosages required), if there is any chance of my cichlids being healthier, happier, or more vibrant as a result of having these minerals in the water, I'll take that chance.


Fair enough.

BTW - very nice execution on the sump ... :thumb:


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

Having only 4 Mbuna in a tank is not easy, you generally want more of a group. With like 3-4 fish, you often end up with one male terrorizing the other fish.

As for water additives, sure you can do what you want. I'm not sure about how a $13 jar will last years, does that account for all of the water changes?


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

noki said:


> Having only 4 Mbuna in a tank is not easy, you generally want more of a group. With like 3-4 fish, you often end up with one male terrorizing the other fish.
> 
> As for water additives, sure you can do what you want. I'm not sure about how a $13 jar will last years, does that account for all of the water changes?


Yes, YEARS. I'm going to be doing 10 gallon water changes at a time, which means a half a teaspoon of salt. Thats equal to roughly 2.5 grams. Do the math, thats 200 water changes with a 500 gram jar! Even if I do weekly water changes thats almost 4 years. Which means 3 to 4 dollars a year, not a hard decision for me.

Even with Labs and Acei's you still think it will be difficult? I realize the Cobalt might be trouble but I'm prepared to remove him if necessary...



wryan said:


> gillmanjr said:
> 
> 
> > I realize that there is no real need, just as there is no real NEED to have pH levels above 8.0 for cichlids, they will do just fine in neutral pH water. Thats not the point. Everything I've read about the salt, not only just from Seachem but also the thousands of people that use it, is that the stuff works and adds a little something to the water. Given the cost of it, which is $13 for 500 grams (enough to last me YEARS at the tiny dosages required), if there is any chance of my cichlids being healthier, happier, or more vibrant as a result of having these minerals in the water, I'll take that chance.
> ...


Thanks! Building that sump was a nightmare, I built the intake and main section outside of the stand but I had to add the return pump section inside the stand because it's too big to get in and out, it sucked. And now the sump is stuck in there, can't be taken out. If it ever springs a leak somewhere in the back I doubt if I'll be able to fix it. At a minimum it'll be extraordinarily difficult.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

Guys, I have one more general question more about aquariums in general:

With the return nozzles inside the tank - Is it better to have them pointing downward to make sure you have adequate filtration flow across the bottom, or should they be at the surface providing agitation for aeration purposes? Which is more beneficial to the overall health of the fish and water quality?


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

gillmanjr said:


> Thanks! Building that sump was a nightmare, I built the intake and main section outside of the stand but I had to add the return pump section inside the stand because it's too big to get in and out, it sucked.


I hate working in confined spaces ... 



gillmanjr said:


> And now the sump is stuck in there, can't be taken out. If it ever springs a leak somewhere in the back I doubt if I'll be able to fix it. At a minimum it'll be extraordinarily difficult.


Hopefully you won't have any issues.


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

10 gallon of water in a change is not enough. Should be half weekly so 25 gallons, so 6.25 grams so 80 changes per jar. Year and a half roughly. What ate planning on using?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Across the surface, both for surface disruption and to set up a circulation loop that will flow back to front, down the front and front to back across the bottom to the return.

Agree on the 50% or more weekly water changes.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

Cyphound said:


> 10 gallon of water in a change is not enough. Should be half weekly so 25 gallons, so 6.25 grams so 80 changes per jar. Year and a half roughly. What ate planning on using?


Almost every single guide that I've ever read says that a 20-25% weekly water change is adequate. Obviously thats just a general rule and its dependent upon everyone's specific setup and bioload, etc, but I've never heard of 50% weekly being necessary. I'll be taking Nitrate readings daily for the first week or two after I stock my tank so I guess I'll find out, but I'm not planning a 50% change. I'm going to have a lightly stocked tank and I'll be running Purigen.


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

More then just nitrate removal in water changes. Water carries many nutrient used by fish. Up to you.
Maybe what you have read is not pertaining to cichlids. Ask the question on water change volume 9n the site. See what you get back. Better yet check this sites history on the subject.


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

Just a thought. If your nitrates are 20ppm and your remove 10 % what are your nitrate readings after the change. Then what are they in a week when they have accumulated again.
Mike


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

Cyphound said:


> More then just nitrate removal in water changes. Water carries many nutrient used by fish. Up to you.
> Maybe what you have read is not pertaining to cichlids. Ask the question on water change volume 9n the site. See what you get back. Better yet check this sites history on the subject.


On this very site...

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/water_changes.php


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

The article is very ambiguous. You will know what you need to do based on nitrate accumulation. My point was that a 10% water change will not be enough. Even the article says so. Please some else chime in. Water changes are the only thing that keeps a tank healthy. No matter what your readings are going to get worse over time. Do the math.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Maybe with 4 fish in a 50G you can get away with less. It is true nitrate is an easy thing to measure but it is an indicator of toxins in the water...both nitrate and things for which we do not measure.

I don't get the use of purigen or other chemical filtration...wouldn't it be better to know what was in the tank rather than mask or neutralize it? Unless you have tap water problems of course.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

Cyphound...I never said a 10% water change...I said 10 gallons, which for me is 20%.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> Maybe with fish in a 50G you can get away with less. It is true nitrate is an easy thing to measure but it is an indicator of toxins in the water...both nitrate and things for which we do not measure.
> 
> I don't get the use of purigen or other chemical filtration...wouldn't it be better to know what was in the tank rather than mask or neutralize it? Unless you have tap water problems of course.


I agree that I have been a little skeptical of Purigen, mostly because of the fact that it supposedly removes BENEFICIAL elements from the water in addition to toxins. The stuff basically just absorbs everything. But as usual I've done a lot of research on it and there are a lot of people that love it. For starters its VERY inexpensive, much cheaper than carbon in fact because only a small amount is needed and the same dose can be used for a really long time if you choose to regenerate it, which I probably won't even bother with because its not that expensive to begin with. I've also read that it makes the water incredibly clear, beyond anything else on the market. There are a lot of people that swear by it and say their fish thrive on purigen. If it will allow me to spend less time changing water without any negative effects to the fish, its worth it to me.


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

My apologies. I meant 10 gallons. Let us know the progress. Set up is nice.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

This was day 4 of cycling on stability. Still no Nitrites, ammonia has dropped to about 1 ppm so I dosed it with a little bit more to bring it back to 2 ppm. But there has been a change...now my moving bed K1 filter is actually moving! :dancing: The K1 is really flying around in there, still some stuck at the surface but I suspect those will start sinking in the next 24 hours.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

I just received my gH and kH test kit today and ran the tests.

gH is around 240 ppm which I believe is adequate for cichlids but my kH levels are a little low around 140 ppm.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

For KH is that 5 drops? 6 drops?

That should be fine without alteration. A decent KH is what keeps your pH stable (buffers it).


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> For KH is that 5 drops? 6 drops?
> 
> That should be fine without alteration. A decent KH is what keeps your pH stable (buffers it).


8 drops I think it was


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would not alter the water. It seems to have everything it needs for your fish, and no additives make stability after weekly water changes easier.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

I already added the full Malawi dose of the cichlid salts and did another test. It raised both gH and kH by 2 drops each so not really a huge difference. I'm going to use it regularly.

Its now been a full week cycling on Stability and still no Nitrites or Nitrates. I'm beginning to think that the Stability doesn't do anything just as MANY other people have experienced with it and other similar live bacteria products. Its highly questionable why Seachem's instructions on the bottle say that you can stock the tank at any time during the first week of cycling on it. Seems like a dishonest claim for them to make and it basically forces you into using Prime or some other ammonia neutralizer to prevent your fish from dying. I'm glad I'm doing a fishless cycle but I hate this waiting.


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

Sounds like your on your way. Keep us updated.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

A couple more questions for you guys:

1. During cycling should I have the mechanical filtration pads in place? I was just thinking last night that if the bacteria establish on the filtration pads rather than the K1 media it could be a problem when I change the filter pads out. Should I just remove them during the cycling process so the bacteria has a greater chance of establishing themselves on the K1 media?

2. Same thing with the carbon although I can leave the carbon in place for longer than the filter pads so I'm not as concerned about it. But I would think that anything in the tank that needs to be changed or isn't permanent probably shouldn't be present during cycling. :-?

3. When adding water lost from evaporation, which I am doing daily (roughly a half gallon a day), how important is it that this water be treated to remove the chlorine? Will that small amount of tap water be enough to kill all the bacteria in the tank? I ask because the first couple of days I added straight tap water. After that I started treating the water with Prime but it is such a small amount of water that its difficult to treat it. I would have to start filling one of my 10 gallon buckets, treating it, and then using that water throughout the week to makeup evaporation losses.


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## punman (Oct 24, 2003)

I guess if you are doing daily top ups you could keep a 5 gallon pail with treated water on hand and just draw from that.

How much is the surface of the water not covered? Glass covers almost 90% of the top of my 90 gallon tank. So little evaporates on a daily basis that the tank gets topped up every ten days when I do water changes. I do not lose enough volume to do daily changes. I do fill the tank pretty full though when I top up.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You should not have to change media...except the fine filter pad at the top. The sponges in the bottom are an important place for bacteria to grow.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> You should not have to change media...except the fine filter pad at the top. The sponges in the bottom are an important place for bacteria to grow.


Are you referring to my setup specifically? Because in the photo the one blue filter pad I have on the top is actually course/stiff filtration material which I put in there to catch the big stuff. The white/green on the bottom is the finer media and thats the stuff that gets clogged up. Its not as bad now because I've gotten all the silt filtered out from my sand, but I had to replace what I originally put i there because it was totally full of silt and the level in my intake section was almost to the very top because of it. I think I am actually going to add a filter sock because I have a good setup for that and it'll be easier to remove a sock and rinse it off. Then I'll keep some of the green/white in the bottom.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You should only have to replace media that shreds after many washings. I've had media in my filters for over 10 years.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> You should only have to replace media that shreds after many washings. I've had media in my filters for over 10 years.


OK thanks. I had no idea that was the case. I bought those 6 foot rolls of filtration material (both blue and green/white), I thought this stuff had to be changed out every few weeks or so.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

That would be terrible for the bacteria. Even the fine filter pads in my canisters only get replaced when I clean the filters which could be 1-3 months. The rest is relatively permanent.

The HOBs that have cartridges...those tend to shred after a couple months so those you do end up having to replace fairly often.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

After a lot more research all over the internet I have decided to change my stocking plan and not try an all male mbuna tank, I don't want the headache. So instead I'm going to go with a 1m to 3f ratio and pick 3 to 4 species, which are probably going to be: Labidochromis caeruleus, both yellow and white, Iodotropheus sprengerae, and Pseudotropheus sp. "Acei". I may also do Pseudotropheus saulosi as well, depending upon how many I end up with.

I have a question for you cichlid experts: if I have a mixture of the yellow and white labs, is it possible to have one male yellow, and then 2 females of each (2 yellow and 2 white)? Or should I have one male of each and 3 females of each? In other words what I'm asking is do the yellow and white labs recognize each other as the same species?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Because of your previous posts and the was you asked the question...responding to the Labidochromis stocking question only. For the benefit of future readers, not endorsing the planned stock for this footprint.

Labidochromis are likely tolerant enough to be happy with one male and females of mixed colors. Just don't save fry.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> Because of your previous posts and the was you asked the question...responding to the Labidochromis stocking question only. For the benefit of future readers, not endorsing the planned stock for this footprint.
> 
> Labidochromis are likely tolerant enough to be happy with one male and females of mixed colors. Just don't save fry.


Thanks. I haven't made up my mind totally on the yellow labs yet. I'm trying to get as much of a color spectrum as I can without having aggression issues so I may just settle with the female Saulosi to cover the yellow. I'm leaning towards (to start with) 4 Saulosi, 4 rusties, and 3 white lab. I think thats reasonable for a 50 gallon tank and certainly I've seen 50 gallon cichlid tanks that are more stocked than that. I would really like to have a few yellow tail acei's as well but that may be something I add later if I think there is enough space to do so.


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## james1983 (Dec 23, 2007)

The acei may be a little on the big side for you tank. Before I got rid of mine he was probably 7" if not more.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Malawi are territorial, the tanks are stocked by length not gallons. A 33G tank that is 48x12 would hold more fish than a 50G cube.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

I understand that, which is why I've chosen the least aggressive of all mbuna species. You yourself recommended the Saulosi: 3m, 9f. How is my plan that much different?


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

I have to retract my previous negative post regarding Seachem Stability, it appears to be working for me now. It took 10 days but my cycle has finally began. As of this afternoon I have 0.25 ppm Nitrite and 5 ppm Nitrate. My ammonia level is still sitting between 1-2 ppm but I am guessing that it is going to start declining now.

Question:

If I want to fully stock my tank from the start (which would mean 12 juvenile cichlids, 1-1.5"), how much ammonia does my filter need to be able to remove in 24 hours? I know thats a difficult question that cannot necessarily be answered with any kind of exact mathematical formula, but roughly speaking based on everyone's experience what do you think? Obviously I have Prime in my cabinet so I can protect the fish but I want my filter fairly well established before stocking the tank. I am thinking that I'd like to see it remove 2 ppm ammonia within 12-24 hours before I stock, would that be a good baseline?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/f ... _cycle.php
The answer is 2ppm within 24 hours...see the Cichlid-forum article for the info. Page 1.

Note there are no Malawi cookie cutter tanks for anything less than 48x12.

This is a 30" tank if you discount acute angles at the ends. 3m:9f Saulosi are tried and true in a 30" tank as a single species. Check out posts by Chapman76. That is not true (proven successful with many repetitions) for labs, rusties or acei in a 30" tank. Saulosi is the only Malawi many will recommend for this type of stocking in a 30" tank.

When you move up to a 36" tank...1m:4f yellow labs or 1m:4f rusties become options if stocked as a single species. Either labs or rusties but not both. And one-two other small, timid species...some of the afra come to mind. I'm not saying no one has ever made labs and rusties work in a 36" tank...but it's not something we usually start off recommending. The goal is for Members to have brilliant success at their first try with cichlids so they are encouraged to continue with the hobby.

I've never seen anyone recommend acei for a tank smaller than 48x12 and usually we recommend 48x18.

If a stock is recommended for a particular species...you can't always retrofit it and substitute the species you prefer and get the same result.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

Thanks again for all your help and suggestions but I'm not a "cookie cutter" kind of guy. I need to figure things out for myself, even if that means the hard way. The biggest reason I got back into this hobby and why I've chosen cichlids is the challenge. For me its less about the fish themselves and more about the challenge of keeping them alive and healthy. If its what I want I would much rather do something thats never been tried than "settle" for something that I know will work, that would be too boring for me.

And btw I already know what my next tank is going to be and where its going. Once my son gets a little older (in a few years) and his play room is no longer full of toys there is going to be a 60", 125 gallon flatback hex tank going in there. But its probably going to be a reef tank, unless I really fall in love with the cichlids. :thumb:


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

Tested again today and Nitrites have gone up to around 0.5 ppm but ammonia levels are still over 1 ppm, they seem to be gradually declining. Everything I've read suggested that there wouldn't be a gradual decline but rather a sudden drop of ammonia to 0. Maybe its because I'm testing every day???


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Hard to say since you are using Stability. My toxins rose gradually and declined gradually. Ammonia peaked first and nitrites peaked second.


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## DutchAJ (Dec 24, 2016)

DJRansome said:


> Hard to say since you are using Stability. My toxins rose gradually and declined gradually. Ammonia peaked first and nitrites peaked second.


I just finished my first cycle and this was exactly my experience as well.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

It would appear that is exactly what I'm experiencing as well. Just tested again, ammonia has dropped a little more to about 1.0 ppm, Nitrite is up to around 2 ppm, and Nitrate is up a little bit more somewhere between 5 and 10.

Is there a point at which Nitrite levels will be high enough to start inhibiting the growth of the bacteria? Should I do a water change to limit keep it from getting too high?


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## DutchAJ (Dec 24, 2016)

I believe I remember reading over 5ppm can and should start small water changes then. That's what I did along the way. I'm not positive though.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

> Now that you have built up enough bacteria to convert ammonia within 24 hours, you can stop testing for ammonia and begin testing for nitrite. The nitrite drop can take up to 2-3 times as long as the ammonia drop. This length of this phase can lead some to think that the cycle is not progressing. However, it is progressing, so be patient. You will probably get a nitrite reading that is very high, even off the chart. That is normal. In order to ensure that things speed along just as quickly as possible, you can perform partial water changes to keep the byproducts of nitrification down because just like excessive ammonia levels they will inhibit the nitrifying bacteria.5 You can perform these water changes daily. However, I would suggest not changing too much water at one time. Try 30% or so daily. (See why in 'Cautions, tips and tricks' below.)
> 
> Here is what your daily routine going forward will look like:
> 
> ...


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

Its now been four full days since I first detected Nitrite but in the last two days there has been no detectable reduction in ammonia and really not much detectable increase in Nitrite, either. I think Nitrite has gone up a little bit, it seems a darker purple now, but its hard to tell. I don't get why the ammonia isn't disappearing though...its been sitting at 1 ppm for three days. :-?


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

Cycle update:

Ammonia around 0.5 ppm this morning, Nitrite about maxed at 5 ppm, Nitrate at 10 ppm. Did a 20% water change and redosed ammonia to 2 ppm. I also picked up some Fluval biomax ceramic rings while I was at Petsmart and added those into the bottom of my intake section. I figured I had the space I might as well, and maybe they will get the bacteria growing faster than the K1 media.

I also added some nice fake plants, I'll post a new pic of the aquascape later. :fish:


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

Here's the updated scape...


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

An update on my cycle: Its almost there :thumb:

On day 20 of my cycle the ammonia was finally gone and since its been processing over 2 ppm every 24 hours. I've been doing water changes ever since to keep the nitrites in check. Yesterday (which I believe was day 24) I finally got a high Nitrate reading, over 40 ppm. Thats the first time I've seen more than 5 or 10 ppm Nitrate. Still waiting for Nitrites to disappear completely but I'm guessing it won't be long now. I also added an established sponge filter from Angels Plus about a week ago to speed things up a little bit. I wish I had known about those before I started.


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## SantaMonicaHelp (Oct 1, 2012)

Hi gillmanjr,

Nice start!! Do you plan to add any corals or plants?
What fish do you like?

Zhenya


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

SantaMonicaHelp said:


> Hi gillmanjr,
> 
> Nice start!! Do you plan to add any corals or plants?
> What fish do you like?
> ...


No corals or plants, its going to be a Mbuna tank. 3 of the relatively docile and small species. I haven't made up my mind yet on the third species but I'm definitely going with labs (mixture of yellow and white) and rusties. Been considering Afras as the third.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

My cycle is complete! :dancing:

My nitrites were down to 0.25 ppm today. Nitrates around 80 ppm. It took 27 days, I have a daily log of the cycle that I kept if anyone is interested. It includes all details (exactly what I dosed the tank with, when and how much water changes, etc).

I'm not ordering the fish for another week anyway because I'm going out of town this weekend, but next weeked it'll be stocked. :fish:


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

I am planning on feeding New Life Spectrum Cichlid Formula daily and supplementing with Zoo Med Spirulina flake and Hikari algae wafers. And once in a while I'll mix in fresh veges. Do you think those are good choices? I selected the NLS based on a lot of recommendations all over the internet, including on this forum. It seems a lot of people feed that.

Can someone give me a good feeding schedule with the above three food sources? There isn't a lot of information on the internet about exactly how often to feed, when, how much of each, etc. Any suggestions would be helpful.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I feed 1X daily what they can eat in 30 seconds (most pellets never hit the substrate) and fast them one day/week fairly often.

I just use one staple.

NLS has sufficient spirulina. Maybe once/week substitute one of your other foods. It is amusing to watch them play Frisbee with the algae wafers.


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

Fishkeeping is not what you read on the internet but what you experience. Every setup is based on ever changing parameters. I followed your post from the beginning. You have asked many questions, been given advice and dismissed that advice many times from people that have been doing this for years. So why ask the latest question. Just because you choose a food or set up a rock pile the way your hoping the fish will react doesn't mean the fish will do it thay way. The advice your getting is to fast track you though our failures. By your own admission your not a cookie cutter guy,so do it your way. All the best to you. Sounds like you will succeed spectacularly. 
Mike


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

Cyphound said:


> Fishkeeping is not what you read on the internet but what you experience. Every setup is based on ever changing parameters. I followed your post from the beginning. You have asked many questions, been given advice and dismissed that advice many times from people that have been doing this for years. So why ask the latest question. Just because you choose a food or set up a rock pile the way your hoping the fish will react doesn't mean the fish will do it thay way. The advice your getting is to fast track you though our failures. By your own admission your not a cookie cutter guy,so do it your way. All the best to you. Sounds like you will succeed spectacularly.
> Mike


So just because I don't take everyone's advice means I should just stop asking questions and researching? That makes a lot of sense. :roll: For your information I'm going to follow DJ's recommendation on feeding to the letter. And I have used a lot of other advice from this website, not just this thread but many others.


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

Okay. Think your missing the point though. Your setup is excellent. You had many compliments about it. I agree. Best of luck to you.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

I'm curious about something regarding cycling and was wondering if anyone has any opinions on this. I did a google search and found almost no information on it: Can nitrate levels get high enough to start harming beneficial bacteria? My filter is now successfully removing 2 ppm or more of ammonia and Nitrites within 12 hours and converting all to Nitrate. Without water changes I could conceivably have insanely high levels of Nitrates within only 2 or 3 days. I would like to continue dosing the tank with ammonia daily over the next week just to grow the BB colony as much as possible, but not if the Nitrates are going to get completely out of control. Thanks for any feedback.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

DJRansome said:


> Yes excessive levels slow you down so daily small water changes are advised.





> Now that you have built up enough bacteria to convert ammonia within 24 hours, you can stop testing for ammonia and begin testing for nitrite. The nitrite drop can take up to 2-3 times as long as the ammonia drop. This length of this phase can lead some to think that the cycle is not progressing. However, it is progressing, so be patient. You will probably get a nitrite reading that is very high, even off the chart. That is normal. In order to ensure that things speed along just as quickly as possible, you can perform partial water changes to keep the byproducts of nitrification down because just like excessive ammonia levels they will inhibit the nitrifying bacteria.5 You can perform these water changes daily. However, I would suggest not changing too much water at one time. Try 30% or so daily. (See why in 'Cautions, tips and tricks' below.)
> 
> Here is what your daily routine going forward will look like:
> 
> ...


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> > Yes excessive levels slow you down so daily small water changes are advised.
> ...


That post was in regards to the same question I asked about Nitrites, not Nitrates. My new question is in regards to Nitrates. Almost no info about that. I'm wondering if you can build up high enough levels of NitrATES to start harming your BB.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I think the article was meant to recommend daily water changes until the cycle is finished. Sounds like your cycle is finished. Dosing 2ppm for an extra week will just keep the beneficial bacteria population at the 2ppm level.

I don't think an extra week of dosing will accomplish your goal...but it can't hurt. Except making more nitrates in your tank/filters to remove/clean before adding fish.

Also dosing higher than 2ppm is not likely going to help anything either. If your fishload will generate 2ppm of ammonia or less then the extra BB you grew will die off to the level of your fishload.

2ppm is suggested because it represents at or above the amount of waste that is likely to be generated by the amount of fish in a properly stocked tank.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> I think the article was meant to recommend daily water changes until the cycle is finished. Sounds like your cycle is finished. Dosing 2ppm for an extra week will just keep the beneficial bacteria population at the 2ppm level.
> 
> I don't think an extra week of dosing will accomplish your goal...but it can't hurt. Except making more nitrates in your tank/filters to remove/clean before adding fish.
> 
> ...


Got it. I had a feeling that was the case. I'm surprised that my whole filter is fully established, clearly it is MUCH larger than it needs to be (I'm referring to my sump and the amount of K1 I have). Its almost impossible to tell that there is bacteria on the K1 at all, if there is it is a very thin coating. It looks like most of the bacteria established themselves on the filter pads and the bag of ceramic rings I put in there, plus the sponge I added. Well now I've learned how much bio media is ACTUALLY necessary...


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

I ordered all my fish, they are getting delivered on Saturday!

Ordered all juveniles, 16 fish total. Will be removing all extra males. I went with 6 labs (3 yellow, 3 white), 5 rusties, and 5 socolofis. I'm a little concerned about the socolofis because I've read conflicting information about their aggression, some people say they are relatively docile and perfectly fine with labs, others say the opposite. I guess it comes down to individuals, I'll just have to pay close attention, which I plan to anyway. :fish:


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

My fish are in and they are awesome! Prettier than I expected and they're only juvies. This morning before they arrived I did an 80% water change, reduced the tank temp to 77.5F (which is where I'm going to keep it at), and dosed with Stressguard. I'm also now running the full dose of cichlid salt and cichlid trace. I also decided to get some Malawi buffer. I technically don't really need it but a few days ago I checked my kH and pH and both had dropped to lower than I wanted. The kH was at 5 and my pH had dropped to less than 8 (just under). Now with the Malawi buffer the water is up to 8 drops kH and looking like its staying at 8.2-8.4 pH.

I plan to wait a few more hours before turning on the lights and then I'm going to feed them a little. :thumb:

I'll post some pics later.

Thanks to everyone for the help preparing, especially DJ.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

I took a bunch of shots, the last one is pretty funny...


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

Question guys:

I have a dead spot in my aquarium, the front left hand corner. Literally all of the uneaten food and **** is settling in that corner, its a very small area too. I guess it makes it easier for me to vacuum, but should I try to adjust the nozzles so that everything makes it to my overflow? Is that even possible to do?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Nothing wrong with maximizing circulation, even to the point of rearranging the rocks. There should not be any food so feed less to solve that part of the problem.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

I'm already getting a gut feeling that the socolofis might not work in my tank. I know its still very early and they are small and still adjusting to the tank, but its apparent already that the socolofis are much more "outgoing" then either the labs or rusties. There are exceptions but for the most part the labs and rusties are much more timid and stay under cover more often than not. The socolofis never hide and they never stay still, they're all over the tank, and come right up to the front glass when I'm there.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

I noticed that a couple of my small rusties have rough looking tail fins. They were that way when I got them, I noticed it as soon as I put them in the tank on Saturday. I have assumed that maybe it was from nipping prior to them being in my tank but how can I know for sure it isn't fin rot? Is there something I can or should do in case it is fin rot? All the other fish look perfectly fine, its just 2 or 3 of the smaller rusties that are missing little pieces of tail fin.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If it is injuries from transit it will start healing immediately. Healthy regrowth is clear. It happens very fast. If it is fin rot it will get worse. Edges look mushy.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> If it is injuries from transit it will start healing immediately. Healthy regrowth is clear. It happens very fast. If it is fin rot it will get worse. Edges look mushy.


Thanks


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