# Aquarium Upgrade/Newbie



## jphanton00 (Jan 5, 2013)

1. How do I know when its time to upgrade my aquarium? 
2. What size would you recommend for the cichlid selection that I have?
3. Anyone have experience with TX holey rock? Its been in there for 2 weeks, but doesn't seem to be raising the pH any. Its at 7.4 as of this morning and about a week ago it was 8.2. I noticed that when I change the water and clean the gravel I'm sucking up the sediment from the rock so perhaps this is my issue? I hate to use any chemicals to raise it and would prefer to find a way to do so naturally. The KH and GH are 143.2 and 232.7 respectively.
4. How can I increase Nitrates? The ammonia is 0.25 (will never read 0 with the tap water I have), Nitrites are off the chart as in >5.00, and I can't get the Nitrates to increase (was 5.00 this morning, but was 40.00 a few days ago. I did change the filter in the tank (just the filter and not the bio wheel). It seemed to drop after that. I'm trying to avoid doing daily water changes or even every other day for fear of removing what few Nitrates I do have. I've been treating with Prime every day to decrease the toxicity of the Nitrites and watching my fish to see if they're acting different. The water's clear and everyone seems to be acting ok. I haven't experience any sickness or death (New Tank Syndrome).

Any info you can give me would be great!!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

1-Now would be a good time to upgrade your aquarium to a 75G that is 48" long and 18" wide. Your tank is good for a quarantine tank for about a month or a tank to raise fry or a hospital tank.
2-See above. Are your fish all male? You may have trouble with this mix depending on your stocking plan.
3-I do not find rocks or substrate increase pH...ever. Seven years here and still waiting. 7.4 is not terrible though, so you probably don't have to worry.
4-Once the nitrites mature they will produce nitrates. Nothing wrong with removing nitrates as they are toxic as well. The only good thing about nitrates is they provide evidence your beneficial bacteria that produce nitrites are healthy.

You want to keep the nitrites under 1ppm if you have fish in the tank...the damage may not be visible but it is permanent.


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## jphanton00 (Jan 5, 2013)

1 and 2. My 20-gallon is only a month old, I'm not prepared to upgrade to a bigger tank just yet. Everything I'm learning now is completely different than what I was told in the beginning. If I knew then what I know now I would have gotten a bigger tank to begin with or fewer cichlids or different fish or not started this hobby at all. My acei is getting beat up on and yet is the 2nd largest in the tank by a good quarter inch. And now I'm learning that acei are passive compared to the others. I also learned that I should have either not gotten an acei or gotten more than one. I have a 3-gallon hospital tank which now I'm learning isn't big enough. I don't know what you mean by stocking plan...these were all the cichlids I planned to have. I thought a 55 gallon would be big enough, but I guess that's not the case either. Ugh this is so frustrating. I was told they need 2 gallonsish per every inch of fish so by those calculations my 20-gallon is ample for now. But I'm not sure at what rate they grow and when I'll need to upgrade. I also don't know the sex. I'm not experienced enough to vent them, so I have no idea. 
3. OK
4. I've done about three 50% water changes in the two weeks that I've had them and can't get the Nitrites to a level that isn't off the charts. I do have Nitrates and have had them for about a week, but they're not increasing which is confusing since I have an abundance of Nitrites.


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

The longer you don't upgrade, the longer your fish will suffer and the longer you will be unhappy with your fish.


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## Mschn99 (Dec 24, 2012)

Part of your nitrate/nitrite/ammonia problem is you probably have insufficient biological filtration on the tank. It is incorrect to say your ammonia will never go to 0. Even if there is ammonia in the tap water, the good bacteria will still consume it. What kind of filter are you running on the tank? Its absolutely too small for anything but a very small cichlid or a hospital tank. I would get the upgrade ASAP and go with at least 75G. You also need to look at proper filtration to get your biological filtration in check.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Take back the pindani, acei, kenyi and zebra. Trade them for yellow labs for now and just keep the 6 yellow labs. In six months they will be 2-3" fish and spawning.

If you lose the acei and kenyi, then a 55G will work. When ready to upgrade to the 55G (six months) then you can add a harem of the pindani (Pseudotropheus socolofi) and even another species. Just not the acei and kenyi.

Sometimes fish store advisors are anxious to sell fish or are just not experienced enough with Malawi to give you the best advice. The "inches per gallon" rule does not work for any fish but skinny one-inch fish like neon tetras.


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## jphanton00 (Jan 5, 2013)

Today was the last day that I could return my fish, so returning them is not an option unfortunately. Any other suggestions? I will start pricing bigger tanks. Of all my fish my problem children as the Pindani and the Zebra. Its just weird. When I get up in the morning and I turn on the aquarium light they're all huddled together in the corner like one big, happy school of fish. And sometimes during the day they act like they're getting along with no problems. And then every once in a while I see them chasing my poor Acei all over. And I'm noticing torn fins that weren't there before.

My filtration is a Marineland Penguin 150 Bio-wheel. How long does it take for the Nitrites to convert the ammonia in tap water? I ask because my tap water reads 0.50 ppm and I was told treating with Prime reduces the effectiveness of it being converted to Nitrites. So I assume it will always register on the test. So if I change the water today it will show ammonia on the test if I test it after the water change. How many days after changing the water should I expect to see it down to 0? And I read that its not actually ammonia in the tap water but Chloramine that registers as ammonia. Will this be converted to Nitrites? I did a 50% water change and still show very high Nitrites, and now 0 Nitrates. Do I keep doing daily water changes until Nitrites show 0? I'm fine with that if its what I need to do. Just wondering what I'm doing wrong.


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## jphanton00 (Jan 5, 2013)

Maybe I can get two 40-gallons and split them up? Put the Acei and Labs in one and maybe get another Lab? And put the Pindani, Zebra, and Kenyi in the other one? Would that work?


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## Mschn99 (Dec 24, 2012)

you can always return fish. You may not get credit for full price, but sometimes thinking of the health of the fish and the health of your tank should be more important than money.

With the rare exception of some species of dwarf mbuna, no species from lake malawi or lake victoria should ever be kept in a tank smaller than 55 gallons so your idea of the 40 gallon tanks is just a bandaid as far as most are concerned. Personally though i might be tempted to try it just because the square footage difference in the two is not actually that much, and footprint means more than volume in general in a cichlid tank. In order to pull it off you will want substantially more filtration than you already have and you will want to be very carefull not to stock the tank beyond the filtration.

All that said.......the kenyi and the acei will still probably be a problem.


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## jphanton00 (Jan 5, 2013)

My Kenyi is not a problem at all, in fact he's the nicest one in the bunch probably because he's the smallest. And strangely enough no one picks on him. My Pindani and the Zebra are the meanest ones. Everyone else seems fine. And I was told by Petsmart that I cannot return the fish after 2 weeks; money is not the issue. I was thinking of returning the Acei and when I asked that's what they told me. For now can I move the Pindani and Zebra into another tank? I can run out tomorrow and get one until I can find a 55-gallon that works. And is it a 55-gallon or a 75-gallon? And are you saying that I shouldn't put my Pindani, Zebra, and Kenyi in a 40-gallon? I can get a 45-gallon long that's 48"x12 1/2"x17". I can get two and put the Pindani, Zebra, and Kenyi in one and the Acei and 2 labs in the other. This won't work?

And if I got a bigger tank I would obviously not be able to use the filter I have or I would have to get a second Marineland Penguin bio-wheel. Or is there something special about filtration for Cichlids that I'm not aware of?


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## Mschn99 (Dec 24, 2012)

jphanton00 said:


> My Kenyi is not a problem at all, in fact he's the nicest one in the bunch probably because he's the smallest. And strangely enough no one picks on him. My Pindani and the Zebra are the meanest ones. Everyone else seems fine. And I was told by Petsmart that I cannot return the fish after 2 weeks; money is not the issue. I was thinking of returning the Acei and when I asked that's what they told me. For now can I move the Pindani and Zebra into another tank? I can run out tomorrow and get one until I can find a 55-gallon that works. And is it a 55-gallon or a 75-gallon? And are you saying that I shouldn't put my Pindani, Zebra, and Kenyi in a 40-gallon? I can get a 45-gallon long that's 48"x12 1/2"x17". I can get two and put the Pindani, Zebra, and Kenyi in one and the Acei and 2 labs in the other. This won't work?
> 
> And if I got a bigger tank I would obviously not be able to use the filter I have or I would have to get a second Marineland Penguin bio-wheel. Or is there something special about filtration for Cichlids that I'm not aware of?


Your small kenyi isnt getting picked on because they are mean tough SOB's. when a small fish doesnt get chased, you know when he gets big hes probably gonna be a problem.

Find a local fish shop, not a chain....and they will take the fish. They may or may not give you store credit for them. I dont ever buy from any of the chain stores.

Dont buy tons of tanks and expect to fix the problem, because the tanks have to get cycled. figure out what you are going to keep. Then buy the tank you can afford and do. Bigger is better with a tank, so a 75 gallon would be much better than a 55....but a 55 would work if you had the right species. a 125 would be better...a 300 better than that...and so forth. So figure out what you can do and plan from there.

As far as filtration goes you really need to do some research and form your own conclusions. As far as hang on back filters go, the only one i would use is an aquaclear no questions asked. They are the best HOB filter on the market and i dont think im the only one that would say that. Canisters are a whole other debate as many do a good job and everyone wants to argue about who is best. My opinion is a 55 gallon needs at minimum of 1 aquaclear 110 or 2 aquaclear 70's if its stocked heavily. Thats 5-600GPH of good filtration on 55 gallons of water. Thats just under or just over 10x per hour your tank is getting turned over with good bio filtration. Not all filtration is equal. Cheap filters give the impression of being able to keep a healthy aquarium but dont actually do so.


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## jphanton00 (Jan 5, 2013)

I wanted to find a way to make it work with what I have. I wasn't prepared for the "get rid of some" answer. If I got rid of some then I would get rid of all but the labs and just keep my 20-gallon. It doesn't make sense to get rid of most of what I have and then upgrade to a bigger tank just to turn around and get more. And my Marineland filter is a really good filter from what research I have done, but I misunderstood your post to mean there was something wrong with it. It has a filtration of 150 GPH on my 20-gallon. So its fine from what I have learned.

So just to be clear, upgrading to a 55 or 75 gallon tank will not allow me to keep all six of my cichlids in a healthy, harmonious environment? And that the solution is to get rid of most of them? Did I understand that correctly?


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## Mschn99 (Dec 24, 2012)

jphanton00 said:


> I wanted to find a way to make it work with what I have. I wasn't prepared for the "get rid of some" answer. If I got rid of some then I would get rid of all but the labs and just keep my 20-gallon. It doesn't make sense to get rid of most of what I have and then upgrade to a bigger tank just to turn around and get more. And my Marineland filter is a really good filter from what research I have done, but I misunderstood your post to mean there was something wrong with it. It has a filtration of 150 GPH on my 20-gallon. So its fine from what I have learned.
> 
> So just to be clear, upgrading to a 55 or 75 gallon tank will not allow me to keep all six of my cichlids in a healthy, harmonious environment? And that the solution is to get rid of most of them? Did I understand that correctly?


your marineland filter should be ok for a 20 gallon at an appropriate stocking level (wich is 0 adult cichlids...but can but used as a grow out for fry). it isnt ok for a 20 gallon at the stocking level you have. my point was going foreward......if you get a bigger tank there are better options for filtration.

the problem with your fish in a bigger tank is not the number, its the compatibility, so your thinking is that all fish are the same, so get rid of some to get more doesnt make sence......its not the volume in a bigger tank its the difference in particular species.


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## jphanton00 (Jan 5, 2013)

So if I go with a 55-gallon and get the appropriate species A. Where do I get fish that are already sexed? and B. what do I do when they start having babies? I'm not wanting to get into breeding or rearing fry and then trying to figure out how to get rid of them or whatever.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Uh oh. The fish will breed whether you want them to or not. But...the adult fish will eat the babies (almost instantly) so getting rid of fry is not usually a problem.

The kenyi and the acei are not good for a 55G so I would definitely find a store or hobbyist and rehome those.

For a 55G with mixed genders, you want three species. Pindani (really socolofi) and labs and red zebras will work if you don't keep any fry.

Since mbuna are seldom sold as sexed fish (and mistakes are common if a vendor tells you his mbuna are sexed), what we do is buy unsexed juveniles, and buy 2X the amount of fish you need to end up with. Rehome extra males as they mature. Since this is necessary, it is important that you find an LFS that understands cichlids and will not have a problem giving you store credit for the extra males.

For those species, you want to end up with 1m:4f of each.


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## jphanton00 (Jan 5, 2013)

Ok so I'm going to take all my fish back but the 2 labs. And then since I ultimately want to end up with 5 labs, 1 male and 4 females and as you said they're unsexed out of the pet store then do I want to replace them with 8 more labs to get twice the number I'll eventually end up with? Then upgrade in 6 months to a 55-gallon, get my other fish, and at some point vent them to see the gender and then take the males back. Did I get that right? I read in an earlier post I think you said to take the 4 back and exchange them for 4 more labs but then that doesn't give me twice what I'll end up with. So maybe you said that because 10-1" labs would be too much for my 20-gallon? It woul be super cramped by the end of 6 months. Please walk me through this lol. I think Petco will take tw fish back and adopt them out and I want to do it today. The sooner the better I think is best.


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

Don't wait for 6 months to come. Don't add fish as well. Especially since you say the tank is still cycling. I'd just get the store to take them all back for find someone to take them temporarily.


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## jphanton00 (Jan 5, 2013)

So the Pindani, one of the labs, and the Zebra came from Petco and they said they'd take the fish back. So that's taken care of. I called Petsmart again which is where I got the other Lab, the Kenyi, and the Acei and they were rude. At first the manager said they wouldn't take them back, then that they had nowhere to put them and finally the manager was like, "fine, I'll figure something out", so I don't want to take them back there. I've seen them just throw these guys in some random tank and they die (in fact last weekend I saw one by himself hidden in the plant tank half dead against the filter). The only two mom and pop places we have won't work, one is saltwater only and the other is a high end store who gave me the incorrect info of putting 6 cichlids in my 20-gallon and picking from different species. So obviously they don't know what they're talking about. The only other option is to call Petland and see if they will take them. Petco told me that because they're cichlids they can only take them if their adoption tank is empty because of their aggression. So if Petland won't take them then what?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Find a local fish store (LFS) and not a chain store. The owners will care more about the fish and understand your needs better.

If you are going to stick with the 20G for six months and your labs are one inch now...just trade the fish you are rehoming for any unsexed yellow labs that are good quality.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Good point about not adding fish if the tank is not cycled. But if you are willing to do water changes to keep nitrites under 1ppm it sounds like you are close.

Since your labs are one inch and you don't want to 100% lose your money on the other fish you are trading in...just trade for unsexed labs that are one inch as well. In six months you will start to have problems, but you will also be getting the bigger tank.

If your lab ratios are WAY off then, you may need to buy more unsexed juveniles to get females. But wait for the 55G to be doing that.


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## jphanton00 (Jan 5, 2013)

I won't lose any money. Petco has a 30-day buy back and I found my receipts tucked in a magazine. I got in touch with a different Petsmart and they said its only 1-day past their buy back and I found the receipt so they'll buy them back as well. I'm already doing water changes 5 days a week on my gold fish tank while its cycling so what's one more lol. I'm not against the work and I love my Aqueon Water Changer. And I've already been looking at a 55-gallon. Just a matter of time really. But I really, really want Cichlids so I'll keep the labs I have and get 4 more.


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

_*Don't get more fish. If your tank is still cycling it could throw the cycle off and all of the fish will die.*_


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## jphanton00 (Jan 5, 2013)

Metricliman: Its too late...I already took the Kenyi, Pindani, Acei, and the Zebra back and replaced them with labs. The balance in the tank won't be any different though...I had 6 fish before and I have 6 fish now. And while I understand the reason for cycling before you get fish, I have read very different opinions on this topic. I test my water daily, sometimes twice daily. I perform almost daily at minimum 50% water changes and I've been cycling with fish for 2-weeks now without losing a single fish. It would be easier on me and less stressful for the fish if I had cycled the tank first, but I didn't.

DJRansome: So the fish lady at Petco asked an interesting question...why can't I have two female labs in my 20-gallon? Then I don't have to upgrade, worry about male aggression, spawning, etc. I was wondering what your thoughts were on her question. I don't have an issue upgrading, but I didn't think to ask before why couldn't I just have all females and then I don't need to worry about babies whether I upgrade or not?


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

Often, females, without the presence of males, will act just as bad as a male. 1 will become dominant and harass the other to death.


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## jphanton00 (Jan 5, 2013)

Oh wow...ok. Well I'm still looking to a 55-gallon, but as you said in a prior post Metricliman I have found that a 45-gallon and a 55-gallon are about the same in dimensions for length x depth, just one seems to be taller than the other. So footprint would really be the same. The lady at Petco did suggest that if I wanted to go with a 45-gallon that I reuse the 20-gallon as an overflow thus creating a 65-gallon tank. What do you think about that idea? I'm not saying I would do it (seems easier to just go with a 55-gallon), but I like to know my options.


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## jphanton00 (Jan 5, 2013)

Also, what do you think of <vendor name removed>? They advertise that you can buy unsexed or sexed cichlids...or is this one of those places where they say they're sexed but they aren't really?

And if I get my 55-gallon and in 6 months or less move the labs in there and then start getting the other two species we talked about they'd still be juveniles and considerably smaller than the labs...would they get eaten? What else can I consider putting in with the labs besides the Zebra and Pindani?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Vendor name removed since Cichlid-forum has provided the Reviews section for that type of information and therefore has a rule to keep it out of the forums.

In a 55G you don't want more than 3 species. If you are saying lose the zebra and pindani (make the switch to socolofi, LOL) then there are lots of options that mix with yellow labs...review the profiles or the cookie cutter tanks in the Library.

As long as your new juveniles are 1.5" or so...they will be fine with bigger fish.

Keep your 20G as quarantine/hospital. You will need a quarantine tank when you add new fish to existing fish upon purchase of the 55G so you already know you need one.


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## 1025667 (Dec 20, 2012)

metricliman said:


> Often, females, without the presence of males, will act just as bad as a male. 1 will become dominant and harass the other to death.


That is dead on. In one of my 125s I have a female and a male blue dolphin. The male is about an inch and a half smaller than the female, so he is actually the one getting harassed by the female. Very interesting.


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## jphanton00 (Jan 5, 2013)

OK so I looked at the Cookie Cutter 55-gallon species options and I didn't see Socolofi on there....


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## brinkles (Jan 30, 2011)

That doesn't mean they won't work. The "Cookie Cutter" list is just a few suggestions out of thousands of possible combinations. I don't see any reason Socolofi and labs wouldn't be great together!

I had a recent experience with female fish becoming dominant. I had two 6" female venustus, and three slightly smaller ones, who I thought were all female. The two largest were becoming really nasty, fighting with each other and sometimes other fish. I removed the two large females, and one of the smaller ones assumed male breeding colors within a week! He then spawned with one the remaining females a week after that.


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## jphanton00 (Jan 5, 2013)

Oh wow! I'm not looking forward to the venting process since I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm terrified I'm going to kill one of them either trying to catch it or handling it. And then finding a place for the males will prove to be a challenge. The lady the chain petstore was pretty helpful there though. If their adoption tank is empty they'll take them otherwise she gave me that name of a few mom and pop store I didn't know about to check with.

Ok, so I think I'll stick with the Zebra, Socolofi, and Labs, I didn't really like any of the others in the list unless someone can give me any suggestions that weren't listed that I can look at. And how many total for a 55-gallon? And how many of Labs, Zebra, and Socolofi? Since Socolofi isn't on the list then I'm not sure if the numbers of each species would change.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

1m:4f of each of those species. Enjoy!


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## jphanton00 (Jan 5, 2013)

One more question...what are your thoughts on a 45-gallon long 48x12 1/2x17 tall vs a 55-gallon 48x12 1/2x 21 tall? My thoughts are same footprint, but bigger bioload which means more filtration and I'm ok with that. The reason I'm asking is twofold, the area it will be sitting on is already quite tall and it would be difficult although not impossible to get in there to clean and move things around (it sits on a bar top that's 98x15 in surface and I already have to stand on a chair just to clean the 20-gallon that's 16-inch in height) and second I'm also upgrading my gold fish tank and there's a 38-gallon that's 36x12 1/2x 17 tall so I could just put them side by side and it would look better for them both to be the same height. Thoughts?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't like tall tanks, but that is personal preference both for appearance and access as you mention. However, I would like the two tanks to be the same height.


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## jphanton00 (Jan 5, 2013)

Sorry another question, can I put a Buffalo Head or Dolphin in with the Red Zebra and Labs? I noticed their not on the list, so I thought I better ask.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would not mix buffalo head with mbuna. And dolphin could refer to two (or more) fish: the hap moorii which is a 9" fish and not suitable for a 55G. Or the mbuna Metriaclima dolphin which is a 7" fish also called giant demasoni. I would skip any fish that matures over 6" in a 55G.


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