# Spawning Firemouth Cichlids... Help Needed Please!



## MandyH (Aug 30, 2013)

Hi guys, I'm new here and in need of some advice regarding my Firemouths. I thought I had a male/female pair of and today they confirmed it. I noticed that they were digging a pit in the sand in front of a large terra cotta pot. I did a search and learned that this is pretty common spawning behavior. I continued watching the pair go in and out of the terra cotta pot and sure enough when I got a good look there are tons of eggs.

I have mixed feelings on this. I'm excited because aside from guppies who'll breed for just about anyone, I've never had a pair of fish spawn before. I'm not so excited because there is no way I can keep them all. I don't have the room to set up extra tanks.

I have some questions so I can figure out what my options are.

1- How long does the egg laying portion of spawning usually last. It's been a while (at least 3-4 hours) since I've seen her laying eggs. I'm thinking she might be done.

2- How long before the eggs hatch?

3- How protective will the parents be? So far I've seen them chase the other fish, but nothing serious. They really do NOT like the pleco. They really flare their throats at him and I did see the male nip at his side a couple of times. The pleco is a good 9-10". Do you think I need to be concerned about them hurting/killing him?

4- I have the following fish in the tank; yoyo loaches, dojo loaches, sailfin pleco, beunos aires tetras, and 1 tiger barb which I'm looking to rehome soon. Assuming that at least some of the eggs hatch, will any of these fish eat the fry? I hate saying this, but I don't mind if they do. As I said I don't have room to keep them all. Some nature will need to take place.

5- If the eggs do not hatch, will I need to take the terra cotta pot out to scrape them off to prevent the fish getting sick?

6- Aside from the obvious of separating the parents, what do you do to prevent unwanted babies?

7- How often can I expect this pair to spawn?

8- Since this is their first attempt (that I've noticed anyway), what is the likelihood that there will be a lot of viable fry?

9- How do you get rid of your fry that you can't keep?

Any other tips and/or advice is welcome!

Also, is there a way to post pics? I got some halfway decent shots that I can share if you're interested.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

Hi there,

1. It varies how long the spawning process lasts but I'd say it's safe to say they are most likely done.

2. The eggs will hatch in a couple days, in which you will have "wigglers". After another couple days the fry will go free swimming and you'll then have a big cloud of fry that the parents will be protecting.

3. Plecos are notorious egg eaters. I highly doubt they'll kill a pleco that large as they are built like tanks. You may see him with some torn fins though if he persists in trying to eat the eggs.

4. The BA tetras will most likely try and have a go at the fry as they are a pretty bold tetra species. How large is your tank?

5. No, the parents will most likely eat them.. and if not the pleco will.

6. You can simply cull the fry and dispose of them. Or, remove the eggs once spawned. This however is very stressful on the parents and can cause the pair to turn on each other.

7. Under ideal conditions they can spawn multiple times a month however when I was keeping meeki they spawned much less frequently.

8. Often times it takes a pair a couple times to get the process down but this again varies.

9. I usually simply let them get picked off by my other cichlids. However, in your case you do not have any other larger fish to prey on them. You can try leaving them in the tank or you can simply remove about 80% of them and leave the other 20% in with the parents to eventually be eaten. It's important not to remove all the fry from the parents to soon however as like I previously said, it can cause the pair to turn on each other.


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## MandyH (Aug 30, 2013)

OK... so in theory this pair could end up being a nightmare for me producing many more babies than I can possibly afford to keep or find homes for. Ugh!

How do you humanely cull fry? I hate that thought, but if I'm stuck I'm stuck. I'm assuming that the parents will not eat their own fry then like some other species?

I apologize for leaving my tank size out of my original message. It's a 75 gallon with a sand substrate, fake plants, real driftwood, and a few terra cotta pots for hiding spots. Most of the pots are the small size, but the one that they've chosen to spawn in is one of the large ones. I'll try to post pics so you can see.


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## MandyH (Aug 30, 2013)

OK.... I just started a Photobucket album. Here's a link to photos of my Firemouths.

http://s1007.photobucket.com/user/Mandy ... t=3&page=1


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## Cichlidman14 (Jul 17, 2013)

If u dont want to cull the fry then you can donate the ones that survive to local fish stores for free or store credit


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## NJmomie (Jan 17, 2013)

MandyH said:


> OK.... I just started a Photobucket album. Here's a link to photos of my Firemouths.
> 
> http://s1007.photobucket.com/user/Mandy ... t=3&page=1


Really nice pair of firemouths... good pics, too. Congratulations.


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## walzon1 (Jun 17, 2013)

Should be able to easily sell them on craiglist, if not there is ebay.com and aquabid.com, but then you would have to worry about packaging, heat packs etc. and that is a hassle but it is an option.


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## Cichlidman14 (Jul 17, 2013)

Aquabid is where I got my 75 gallon from, they usually things that most aquarists need


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

MandyH said:


> OK... so in theory this pair could end up being a nightmare for me producing many more babies than I can possibly afford to keep or find homes for. Ugh!
> 
> How do you humanely cull fry? I hate that thought, but if I'm stuck I'm stuck. I'm assuming that the parents will not eat their own fry then like some other species?
> 
> I apologize for leaving my tank size out of my original message. It's a 75 gallon with a sand substrate, fake plants, real driftwood, and a few terra cotta pots for hiding spots. Most of the pots are the small size, but the one that they've chosen to spawn in is one of the large ones. I'll try to post pics so you can see.


First off, great looking pair of meeki!

I've never had to cull fry, so I'm not sure of a humane way to do it.. I've always just left them in my community to be eaten. I'd honestly just siphon them out while doing a water change. Humane? Idk.. Can't be any worse than being eaten. :?

The problem with giving fry to shops is that they usually are going to want them somewhat grown out (say a half inch). I doubt any shop is going to take newly born fry but I suppose it's worth a shot..

Only other solution would be to separate the pair OR perhaps maybe add another cichlid that would prey on the fry readily? You do have room being that you have a 75gal..


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## MandyH (Aug 30, 2013)

Thanks everyone! I almost didn't get those Firemouths. I wanted them for such a long time, but after having a big die off in my tank I decided to just keep what I had and then tear the tank down. Then I saw the Firemouths at our local pet store, the were little and looked so cute so I grabbed 3. One of them died shortly after, but these two have been doing great. I think my male is stunning! I'm so glad I tried them out. He's got quite the personality too especially now. Whenever someone gets too close to the tank he flares his throat out and darts around. I watched him closely today as he went after the yoyo loaches. He really charges at them, but he doesn't seem to be nipping them. He opens his mouth and presses it against them almost like he's kissing it. It's pretty weird, but cool.

I guess for now I'll just keep an eye on the eggs. Hopefully at some point this weekend I'll have new pics of some wigglers to share. The thought of the "cloud of fry" really fascinates me. It'll be neat to see if they actually hatch. I don't mind giving them away for free if I can find a store willing to take them. We'll see how it goes. I'll post updates and pics for sure.


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## MandyH (Aug 30, 2013)

CjCichlid said:


> Only other solution would be to separate the pair OR perhaps maybe add another cichlid that would prey on the fry readily? You do have room being that you have a 75gal..


I REALLY don't want to separate them. I've gotten quite attached to them. I feel kind of silly saying I'm attached to a fish, but I am. LOL If I were to add another cichlid, which one would be a good option considering the other fish in the tank? I used some aquarium calculator thing not to long ago and it said I'm overstocked as it is. Here's my info:

Tank size: 
75g (standard dimensions)

Filtration:
Rena XP3

Fish: 
(1) sailfin pleco (he's about 7 years old now at about 9-10")
(2) dojo loaches
(3) yoyo loaches
(14) buenos aires tetras (these were just recently added)
(1) tiger barb (soon to be rehomed to a coworker's tank
(2) firemouth cichlids.

Would a blue acara work? I really like the look of those fish too.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

Mandy,

Adding another cichlid is definitely an option, however it could be a bit tricky. Whenever adding fish (especially territorial cichlids) to an existing setup it's most likely going to cause some drama. Your pair of meeki are not going to be pleased with this new "intruder". If you do indeed want to add another cichlid, just keep that in mind. There are a few things you can do to help curve the aggression, such as adding multiple fish as well as completely re-scaping the tank so all the fish are in a new environment.

Just wanted to be clear as I'd hate to recommend adding more fish into your now peaceful tank just to have it become a war zone!

A Blue Acara would probably work, however I'm not sure how one will do as far as keeping your fry numbers in check as they are a relatively mild tempered SA cichlid..


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## MandyH (Aug 30, 2013)

Thanks. I guess I'll just watch and see how this all plays out. I definitely don't want to add drama to this tank since they're all getting along now.

I checked on the eggs this morning, none have hatched yet (wasn't expecting them too, but looked anyway). There are tons of eggs. Definitely 200+. I can only see a few white ones. I'm thinking that they probably spawned before and I just didn't pick up on it. Either that or they're just really good at it if this is their first try! Are the eggs that aren't white definitely fertilized or can they still be that brownish color if they're not?

They're doing a great job protecting their territory. Mom rarely comes out of her cave and dad keeps patrol. It's pretty neat watching them!


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## MandyH (Aug 30, 2013)

Quick update. I just peeked at the eggs again and I saw one of them wiggling a little bit. Looks like my fun is about to begin!


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## Cichlidman14 (Jul 17, 2013)

Woop Woop


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## MandyH (Aug 30, 2013)

I see why they're referred to as wigglers. They remind me of tiny tadpoles! There are only a few white eggs that I can see. It looks like this pair is on top of their game! Here are some pics.


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## MandyH (Aug 30, 2013)

Well... so far everything seems to be going well with my Firemouths. The wigglers are all grouped together at the base of the pot. Do they maneuver over there themselves or does the mom pick them up as they hatch and spit them out?

Here are some new pics.

Hard to get a decent pic, but the brown patch at the bottom of the pot is actually all of the wigglers.


The mountain of sand in front of their cave. They're still adding to it. When the babies are all out and moved, will they generally use the same cave to spawn each time? Do you usually level the sand or just leave it alone for them to work with?


Dad on his patrol run. He looks very colorful tonight!


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## walzon1 (Jun 17, 2013)

Nice Pics


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## MandyH (Aug 30, 2013)

Thanks! My male has been really colorful the past few days. I guess he's feeling like he's the man right about now! LOL

Does it make me a dork that I'm at work right now wanting to go home to check on the babies? I can't stop thinking about them. I can't wait until they're free swimming! I'm anxious to see how many actually survive. I can't keep them all so I guess I'll need to start making some phone calls.


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## NJmomie (Jan 17, 2013)

MandyH said:


> Thanks! My male has been really colorful the past few days. I guess he's feeling like he's the man right about now! LOL
> 
> Does it make me a dork that I'm at work right now wanting to go home to check on the babies? I can't stop thinking about them. I can't wait until they're free swimming! I'm anxious to see how many actually survive. I can't keep them all so I guess I'll need to start making some phone calls.


That makes ALL of us dorks. LOL


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

You really do have a great looking pair of meeki; great pics as well!

I've found once a pair picks a spawning site they tend to stick to it unless they get pushed out by another cichlid or you re-scape the tank. No need to level out the sand either, they'll continue to dig and move it around.


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## MandyH (Aug 30, 2013)

Thanks! This is all so new to me so it's all very exciting. I'm a bit partial to my guys too. I'm so glad I decided to give them a shot. I think I'll always own some, maybe even some that I've bred! 

I called around this afternoon and found 2 stores so far that are willing to take some babies. One is our local Petco. I know Petco often gets a bad rep, but this one's not bad at all. It's very clean and their fish for the most part are healthy. The guy who runs the dept is very smart when it comes to fish. They said they'd take them at any size and they always QT them before selling. The other store is a bit of a moral dilemma situation for me. They sell puppies which I don't support so I'll only use them as a last resort. They will take them as long as they're dime to quarter sized.

I went home for my lunch hour and checked on the babies. They're still doing great as far as I can tell. It looks like a few are trying to swim, but for the most part they're all still a pile on the floor. I can see their little tails wiggling though so I know they're still alive. I'll try to get a decent pic tonight. I can't wait to see them when they start looking like fish! Haha!


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## MandyH (Aug 30, 2013)

The fry are still mostly huddled together on the floor of the tank under the terra cotta pot. They started hatching Saturday so this is the 4th day. How long do they typically stay just laying there? I can see that they're still alive and wiggling, but is it normal to take this long to start swimming? Do I need to do anything? I'm trying not to worry, but I just don't know what's normal and what's not normal.


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## walzon1 (Jun 17, 2013)

normally I believe it's about a week till they are free swimmers. Im actually surprised they are doing so well usually first time breeders are not successful glad everything is going well.


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## notho2000 (Dec 8, 2012)

MandyH said:


> The fry are still mostly huddled together on the floor of the tank under the terra cotta pot. They started hatching Saturday so this is the 4th day. How long do they typically stay just laying there? I can see that they're still alive and wiggling, but is it normal to take this long to start swimming? Do I need to do anything? I'm trying not to worry, but I just don't know what's normal and what's not normal.


At a temperature of 75 - 80F, they would take about 48 to 72 hours to hatch and another 4 days to become free swimming. So usually about a week from laying to free swimming. The times are somewhat variable depending on water temperature. So yours are pretty much 'normal'.
Jim


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## MandyH (Aug 30, 2013)

walzon1 said:


> normally I believe it's about a week till they are free swimmers. Im actually surprised they are doing so well usually first time breeders are not successful glad everything is going well.


To be honest, I think they've spawned before and I just wasn't smart enough or observant enough to pick up on it. Looking back now I do recall seeing the female going in and out of the cave quite a few times, but I never thought they were spawning until I saw the sand mound and then when the male was flaring at me like no tomorrow I grabbed the flashlight for a better look. Considering how many white eggs I saw (not very many at all) I'd say there's no way this is their first time. If it is please pray for me because they're going to be pros at this and will "bless" me with thousands and thousands of babies!! LOL



notho2000 said:


> At a temperature of 75 - 80F, they would take about 48 to 72 hours to hatch and another 4 days to become free swimming. So usually about a week from laying to free swimming. The times are somewhat variable depending on water temperature. So yours are pretty much 'normal'.
> Jim


Thanks, the temp was exactly 80° when I looked this morning. The fry was pretty active. Some of them seem to be attempting to swim, but it looks more like they're just bouncing around if that makes sense. I've only seen a handful moving around like that though. Most are still just wiggling on the floor. I cannot wait until they come out of the cave so I can really see them!


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## MandyH (Aug 30, 2013)

Just another obnoxious fry update. Sorry!

I just went home for my lunch break and they've all been moved. This morning they were all clustered together on the left side of the cave. This afternoon they're all dead smack in the center, but still on the far edge. I have a much better view of them now. They're moving around like crazy! Still no real swimming, but you can clearly some attempting to swim and the ones on the floor are all wiggly. I'm having so much fun watching these guys! I was able to get a couple of decent photos, but I won't be able to post them until after work.


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## MandyH (Aug 30, 2013)

Ok so this afternoon the fry were all bunched together. Tonight they're clearly starting to swim! So exciting! Mom and dad are really gonna have their hands full now and so will I if even 1/4 of them survive! Here are some pics. Not the clearest because of the angle I have to shoot through to try to get decent close ups.

This afternoon, all bunched together. 




Tonight... they're swimming around!!


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## NJmomie (Jan 17, 2013)

That's a lot of babies!!!!


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## MandyH (Aug 30, 2013)

Definitely is a lot of babies! More than I thought they were.

I had so much fun watching them last night. Some of them were trying to swim out of the cave so mom would go chase them down, grab them, and then spit them back out in the cave. It's really neat watching them care for their babies.

I do have a question regarding feeding the fry. How do you go about feeding them when they're still in a community tank? I have these guys in a 75g with some dojo and yoyo loaches, a pleco, and some Buenos aires tetras. All the reading I've done seems to suggest using a turkey baster to drop food right in front of them, but won't that mess up the chemistry of the tank? Can I rely on mom to bring food to them? I usually feed them twice a day should I increase that to make sure the fry gets enough?


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## Mr Chromedome (Feb 12, 2013)

I would not count on the parents providing food for the fry, in the wild the fry would normally forage for micro-organisms when they start swimming. Feeding with a turkey baster, or just using a long piece of air tubing, will allow you to direct fry sized food to their vicinity, and shouldn't affect the tank chemistry any more than regular feeding. There are commecial finely powdered foods for fry, you would have to mix it with water to shoot into the cloud of fry. You can also use frozen brine shrimp nauplii, sometimes labeled as baby brine shrimp.

Your best chance to get that to the fry would be to feed the adult fish at the other end of the tank from the babies, and while they are distracted you can fire a small amount of fry food to their vicinity.


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## MandyH (Aug 30, 2013)

Thanks for the info. I tried finding some of the food today, but the stores didn't have it. I'm going to look again tomorrow at a couple of other stores. If I can't find any I'll get some expedited from an online store.

Well... the fry were all out and about today. They were still pretty close to their cave, but at least I got to see them out and swimming finally. Here are some pics as well as a short video.


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## walzon1 (Jun 17, 2013)

These Pictures are amazing, you have a lot of skill with a camera. Keep 'em coming


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## NJmomie (Jan 17, 2013)

Amazing to see nature at work. I'm so excited for you. As for food, if you have flake food, you can crush them up by hand or using a mortar and pestle. It's the same as what you buy anyway.


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## MandyH (Aug 30, 2013)

Thanks guys! No new pics today. I gave them a photography break yesterday and will likely do the same today. The parents are starting to roam a bit more with the babies. Yesterday they were in the middle of the tank. This morning they're on their side so far, but it's still early yet. We'll see how far they get today. 

So yesterday I noticed that I have a BIG problem on my hands. I noticed tonight that my Buenos aires tetras have white spots on them. I'm thinking they have Ich. I've had them for 3 weeks now and this is the first time I've noticed Ich spots. I'm hoping I caught it early enough. The problem is that these fish are in my community tank with my firemouth chichlid fry. I've always preferred to go the heat route when treating for Ich, but I'm seeing that it's recommended now to use salt too? It's literally been years since I've dealt with Ich and I've never used salt before. Will raising the temps to 86-87 be enough to kill the Ich without killing the fry? Also this is my first time having to treat Ich with a sand substrate. I cannot vac like you can with gravel. Is there anything different I should do?


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## walzon1 (Jun 17, 2013)

I think raising the temp would be fine as most fish breed during the summer when the temps are normally higher, but be slow about raising it. Don't know if I would add salt to treat with fry in there, maybe someone else on the forum with more experience dealing with fry could be more help on this.


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## MandyH (Aug 30, 2013)

Thanks, so far so good. Temps have been sitting steady at 87.5 for most of the night. Nobody seems to be stressed and the fry seems to be handling things well too. I have not added salt, but I did put some Melafix and Pimafix in (half doses). I noticed my pleco has a spot on his tail that doesn't look right. It either looks like a fungus or maybe a burn because his new favorite spot is right near the heater. That part of his tail has been resting on the heater. I've moved the heater so he's not in contact with it anymore. I have lowered the water level and upped the aeration. I also did a 25% PWC last night as well as again today. Hope I'm going in the right direction! I'd hate to lose the fry, but I have to save my other fish too! 

Here are a few pics from today.

Some of the fry.


They're being such great parents!













My entire set up.


This is the best shot I could get of my pleco's tail. What do you think it might be?


And, here's a quick video of the parents and their fry.


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