# lowering pH



## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

So I'm considering some peat moss to lower the pH in my 20 for when I breed apistos. The pH is currently at about 7.6, and I'm hoping to get it to about 6.0 or maybe 6.5

What I'm wondering is how much peat will I need? I will be putting it in a bag and keeping it in the filter (an AC20). Also, would it lower the KH too? or just drop the pH? And whats the lowest I can drop the pH to with peat? Oh and would the pH drop affect the biofilter?

way too many questions I know, but you can't be too safe =P

That's what she said...? :lol:


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

In my experience, trying to lower the pH using peat alone was a slow process and inconsistent results. It wasn't until I bought a $99 dollar R/O filtration system that I was happy. 
Peat does lower the KH somewhat....


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

Do you not have naturally soft water in Vancouver? According to Gary Ellston, pH is not much of a factor, but soft water is for the difficult to breed species of Apistos.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

The water is very soft out of the tap (less than 1 GH and KH, pH 7), but it crashes hard within a couple days, so I have to buffer it up. And I'm thinking of breeding A. baenschis, would the pH that I have atm be ok?


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*BelieveInBlue*
That is dream apisto water... peat will acidify that water very quickly. You might not want to alter the tap water at all.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> It wasn't until I bought a $99 dollar R/O filtration system that I was happy.


That softens the water, but then how do you lower the pH from there? I'm getting ready to do this for some of my west africans. Distilled water, for instance, will still be at a pH of about 7.



> Oh and would the pH drop affect the biofilter?


Yes, nitrificaiton stops, but the good news is that the ammona is bound into a non-toxic form. Plants will take it up. From what I've read they actually prefer it to nitrate.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

BelieveInBlue said:


> The water is very soft out of the tap (less than 1 GH and KH, pH 7), but it crashes hard within a couple days, so I have to buffer it up. And I'm thinking of breeding A. baenschis, would the pH that I have atm be ok?


If you want low pH why are you buffering it up? As Number 6 said, you have excellent water from the tap for Apistos. Read the articles in the library by Lee Newman, as I believe he discusses your water in the Satanaperca article. You may find some info that is useful to you.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

I had to buffer it cuz it kept crashing and killing my cardinals >.<

Meh I'll prob just get some tank-raised apistos instead of messing with the water...


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

What exactly do you mean by crashing and killing your cardinals?


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

I'd do a water change, test the water and the pH would be lik 7.2 or so. couple days later I'd lose a cardinal or two, and a water test reveals that the pH is at like 6.0 or less; I would then buffer the tank up and all would be good until the next time I did a water change, unless I rebuffed it up.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Cardinal tetras do mot die from acidic water... Not the issue.

Prov, pH is really not relevant for fish... At all... Species that breed in black water with a GH and KH of 0 spawn and rear fry at a pH of 7.4 just as they do at 6 if the GH and KH are still at 0


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Prov, pH is really not relevant for fish... At all... Species that breed in black water with a GH and KH of 0 spawn and rear fry at a pH of 7.4 just as they do at 6 if the GH and KH are still at 0


Understood, but still want to know. And there's some debate about whether some fish will spawn at various pH levels. Not from me, I really haven't tested it out yet, so don't know. But, there are experts that say it's very relevant. Who to believe?


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

I once had a pair of Apistos that wouldn't spawn and I read about a guy who spilled cold black coffee into his tank and that triggered a spawn. I tried the black coffee trick and it worked... is coffee required for that species? Hardly...

Truth is, our artificial environments lack critical things that we haven't identified. Someone drops the pH way down, adds coffee,adds cold water, plays Barry White.... fish spawn and we think, there.... that was needed. For all we know the fish have a survival mechanism that says "breed if you think you might die soon" and coffee or cold water makes them think they are going to die. :lol:

So, is pH important? I once had A.iniridae and dropped the pH to just over 5... fish spawned a few weeks later! The experts were right! I checked the pH of that tank and it was 7.4
something made it climb way up... uh... experts wrong?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I'm not talking about some hobbyist spilling black coffee in a tank. I'm talking about Anton Lamboj. Are you saying he's dead wrong?

And you still didn't answer my question.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

. I avoid questions where the answer undermines my argument. 
Ok, I give... I used to use canadian peat the most and two commercial acidifiers more rarely.

What I am saying about Anton is that he is posting what works and hasn't begun to try and scientifically experiment to prove or disprove many of his theories. Why bother really?

I am willing to bet though that if he were to setup an aquarium with some of his west Africans just as he recommends and then was ably to adjust just the pH up without altering any other factor, his fish would still spawn and fry would be had.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I lean heavily toward agreeing with you. I'm just getting into attempting to spawn some west africans that supposedly require not just soft, but acidic water. And that requirement is for breeding. I only found one where he said it was important for keeping too. I have a pair of congochromis sabinae. Very happy pair, lots of going through the motions but no spawns in straight tap at KH5, GH8, pH 7.8 or so. I've had them for months. So, I moved them to a 10 filled with distilled water. I"m setting up RO now. pH of distilled is about 7, as I'm sure you know. They're still settling in. My plan is to leave them for as long as several months in this water to see if they spawn. If no, then I'll drop the pH. If they then spawn, it proves nothing, but would be a start. I'd rather go this way than start with acidic water, have them spawn, and then be forever thinking it was required. I agree that may be exactly what many others do.

I'd be interested in asking him abou this if I ever get a chance to meet him. He was originally listed as a speaker for the CARES convention in San Antonio in November, but I don't see him listed any more. Too bad if he's out because he would have been one to hear. Les Kaufman dropped out as well, but Melanie Stiassny is still on the speaker list as is Paul Loiselle. Should be good.

So, if I get to the place where I need to experiment with a lower pH, is peat the best way to go about this? I was thinking of just adding a layer to the tank bottom. It can be messy, I know, but I don't care about that, this is fish room stuff.


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## dsouthworth (Sep 7, 2011)

Number6 said:


> breed if you think you might die soon" and coffee or cold water makes them think they are going to die.


Probably the finniest thing *** seen on this site in a looooonnnggg time. 
nice quote, so true. equally as humorous!


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

prov356 said:


> So, if I get to the place where I need to experiment with a lower pH, is peat the best way to go about this? I was thinking of just adding a layer to the tank bottom. It can be messy, I know, but I don't care about that, this is fish room stuff.


Yes, peat that is 100% ammonia free (canadian peat moss usually is) and cannot rot is the best way i have found to date.

Dsouthworth, glad you enjoyed!


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

Anton Laboj spoke at our club a couple of years ago, and he truly is the source for all things West African. However, I would suspect that the soft water is more of issue than the pH. This is supported by Gary Elston's work with Apistos, and West Africans, of which he has kept and bred many, since his thing is small tanks. Gary did a couple of presentations for us, one on cichlids for small tanks at the CAOAC convention we hosted, and one at our annual banquet on Apistos.
I guess if I was going to try to induce a spawn with what appeared to be a difficult species, I would try a largish water change using softer water.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I guess if I was going to try to induce a spawn with what appeared to be a difficult species, I would try a largish water change using softer water.


I actually tried that in the original tank. I changed out 70-80% using distilled water. No luck.

I'll leave the water alone, then. Certainly easier. Maybe I'll pick up a couple more 'soft water' species to expand the testing


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

I for one would be interested in whatever you discover.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

Ok so basically, don't mess with the pH, and just keep the water soft? currently I have KH 3 and GH 5, my rams spawned in that water, so I think a pistos would too?


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

Some Apistos will spawn in almost any water, others need/want soft water.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

Leaning towards A. baenschi atm  hopefully they wont mind what I have.


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## sik-lid (Sep 6, 2011)

I put a piece of driftwood in my tank and it dropped the ph. It was burned to char on one side. The bummer was it kind of made my water turn a brownish (tannin) color but it definitely sped up the cycle process. I am still not sure why or how.


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