# Please advise on substrate



## E_Unit79 (Nov 1, 2009)

I am setting up a sa/ca 75gal tank. The tank has the black trim and my light will be black and I am building a black stand that you can still see the would grain through. My wife wants to do like a real natural looking substrate that would have colors of browns. The tank will be planted as well. I have considered pfs and that seems to be the favorite amongst most on the forum. I also considered doing black substrate to match all the other black of the stand and so forth.

What would look best, be best for my fish and be best for the plants? I was told at lfs that darker substrate helps bring out colors of the fish, whereas white bright substrates seem to make the fish looked washed out. What are your thought?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The fish will try to blend into their background. So they might look washed out with with white because they try to make their colors lighter. But just as much of a chance that they will look muddy with black because they try to make their colors darker.

I like the natural sand colors best. They also hide debris best.


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## jordan_101 (Mar 21, 2010)

+1 with dj ransome's input IMO that's way to much black I have black everything minus the sand like black tank black light housing black stand black background and just regular silica sand and my fish show awesome color. In my hospital tank I have black everything even black substrate and the fish I put in there to quaitine after buying them go a really dark muddy color. Like legit brown and show no color but as soon as they go in my display tank they show their full color again.


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## iceblue (Apr 27, 2004)

You might also try a planted tank substrate such a s Eco-complete. It's a bit of a darker brown but is excellent for root feeding plants such is found in SA/CA. A healthy growth of plants will make many of the S.A. cichlids feel comfortable and therefore color up.


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## middlearth (Dec 30, 2009)

I'm just setting up a planted 46 gallon bowfront for apistogrammas, etc. , and was planning on using the Eco-Complete substrate. But I've just read that it makes the water too hard and alkaline...do you find this to be true?


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## E_Unit79 (Nov 1, 2009)

I think I am going with pfs mixed with a brown eco complete for the plants and just a little bit of a natural gravel and mix it all. Hopefully with will give the tank the most natural bottom environment. I will mix very little gravel so that the sand and eco complete does not all sit at the bottom.


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## E_Unit79 (Nov 1, 2009)

Update! I put pfs, very little river rock gravel, and little eco complete in the 75 gal. It looks great all mixed together with the fish and driftwood that I have in the tank. My next question is how do you clean the substrate that has pfs? I know if I am not careful with the gravel vacuum I will loose some of my pfs. Any and all suggestions are welcome.


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## jordan_101 (Mar 21, 2010)

I vacume my silica sand the same way you would river rock and I hardly lose any sand at all


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## iceblue (Apr 27, 2004)

E_Unit79 said:


> Any and all suggestions are welcome.


Check out this video . It should help. Mostly it just takes a little practice to minimize your sand loss. I always keep some extra cleaned sand on hand to replace what little I lose vacuuming my substrate.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/videos/cleaning_sand.php


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## cartman (Oct 15, 2008)

iceblue said:


> E_Unit79 said:
> 
> 
> > Any and all suggestions are welcome.
> ...


that's fine to to a quick run over the top & remove any visible bulk waste deposits as a first run, but then as jordan_101 suggested just use a gravel vacuum like you would normally for the best results


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## iceblue (Apr 27, 2004)

Depends on how much sand to gravel you have. If you use the gravel vacuum as you normally would with a gravel substrate your going to lose a lot of sand. I wouldn't worry about it to much though. Just do a skimming over the top if it becomes too unsightly and anything that works its way into the substrate can be utilized by the plant roots.


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## cartman (Oct 15, 2008)

iceblue said:


> Depends on how much sand to gravel you have. If you use the gravel vacuum as you normally would with a gravel substrate your going to lose a lot of sand.


no no no - sorry iceblue but have you ever actually tried it? this is one of the most propagated myths re: sand substrate going around & itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s quite simply not true - using a normal wide-mouthed gravel vacuum on sand is no different than using it on normal gravel ... and itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s got nothing to do with sand/gravel ratios either

it really is that simple - but don't take my word for it ... try it for yourself


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

I can "gravel vac" my pool filter sand just as I would pea size gravel, and not really suck any (sand) into a bucket, unless I just place the head of the gravel vac deep into the sand and leave it there. You have to dip it in and pull it out without allowing it to linger in the sand. No sand loss in my experience unless you are not paying attention.


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## jordan_101 (Mar 21, 2010)

Yea I jus vacum my sand as iwould gravel jus have to be careful not to leave it in its simple and it makes it so you don't have to stir the sand to remove and the air pockets in the sand I would rather vacum sand instead of gavel jus cuz waste doesn't get as deep into the substrate making it way easier to clean


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## iceblue (Apr 27, 2004)

I have tried it and I lost a lot of sand.


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## jordan_101 (Mar 21, 2010)

Then I would say you have more of a silt then you do a sand


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## iceblue (Apr 27, 2004)

No. I used "washed plaster sand" from Lowes. There was no silt left after doing a very thorough job of cleaning it and I know the difference between silt and particles of sand.

I suppose some of it would have to do with the height at which your water exits the hose. I had my gravel cleaner attached to a 75ft garden hose and watered my trees when I did 50-65% water changes from my 84g. The level the water exited the hose was about 5-6 ft below my substrate. That could account for the strong suction I was getting from my cleaner. I suppose if your only draining from couple of feet into a bucket and your grain size was large enough you wouldn't need to worry about sucking up a lot of sand. I'll give it a try.

I still stick to my earlier statement though about not worrying about what's in the substrate. In a tank with healthy and vigorous plant growth any mulm that gets into the substrate will be utilized by the plants and an occasional stirring of the sand would be all you need to prevent the build up of noxious gasses.


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## cartman (Oct 15, 2008)

iceblue said:


> I have tried it and I lost a lot of sand.


i don't see how - if u can do it as per the video (which takes a bit of time to master) then using a gravel vacuum in sand is a cinch

...however I guess it could be the type of sand you use - perhaps it's too light???

although I've never used it, this could be the case if it's play sand or something similar - I seem to recall Joe A doing a video on how to clean play sand so perhaps he's using it also which is why he has to clean it via the method in his video ... what sort of sand do you use Ice?

... but I assure you pool filter sand behaves just like gravel during cleaning


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## cartman (Oct 15, 2008)

ehh nevermind ... serves myself right for getting distracted while posting...

that's probably it then (light sand)

I'm not so sure about there being too high a suction tho, I run a 15m (50ft) hose out to my garden also on the low-side of the house and don't have excessive suction issues

would be interesting to see a video of it - think I'll take a video of mine next time I do it & post it - hopefully will encourage others with different types of sand to do the same to make the comparison


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## iceblue (Apr 27, 2004)

cartman said:


> ehh nevermind ... serves myself right for getting distracted while posting...


No problem. I've done it a few times myself. :wink:

The higher the draw on your hose the faster the water will be drawn through and the greater the suction you'll get at the top end. I've drained my waterbed into the shower before and it takes a good part of the day to empty it. One day I stuck the hose out the second story window into the backyard and when I checked it an hour later it had been sucked dry.


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## kuhliLoachFan (May 30, 2010)

My SA/CA biotope uses Ecocomplete, a dark brown with a bit of black specks. It looks fabulous.
The plants love it too.

W


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