# DIY stand/plumming/sump stuff



## mok3t (Nov 28, 2008)

So here are my plans.

I'm gonna build a stand with a 112gal on top and a 45gal in the middle with a sump running on the 112gal. This means the sump cant be central and this will require extra angles and stuff.

Heres how it would look from the back:









And from the side









So you see, the return line has a LOOONG way to go and goes through 3 90degree bends.

I want the siphon to be able to handle the water returned from the pump, but i also don't ant to put too much strain on the pump by forcing it to do TOO much work.

The siphon from the tank is going to be one tube reaching 75% of the way down the height of the tank which will be perforated all the way down so it skims water from all levels (obviously not too close to the top so it doesn't break the siphon)

Would it make more sense to have the Siphon going through the longer, bendier tube? Or would it work fine as it is ATM? Is the Perforated siphon tube worth the trouble or should i just get a standard tube and net the bottom off?

Thanks in Advance


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

I would never setup a tank where there was any chance of the drain being slower than the return... I say keep it as you diagramed.


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## fishEH (Sep 15, 2008)

You could run the back return line at a diagonal and eliminate one 90. Might help a little, can't hurt.


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## Murky (Jun 13, 2007)

I'm by no means the leading authority on sumps and overflows,  but from what I see the set up looks good. :thumb: I think you might be a little disappointed with a single U-tube going over the tank into the overflow box. I could be wrong but this might limit the amount of flow you will get down your drain. but then again I could be totally off my rocker :lol:

maybe someone with a little more experience could answer me this... now I could be totally wrong here and I'm not afraid to admit it.. but If you set your standpipe in the overflow box lower, will you be able to achieve a better siphon and be able to operate your pump at more gph?
which also means that you will need a big enough sump to contain that lower standpipe height during the event of a power loss.. or does the standpipe height just determine where the water level will be at period?


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## aquaBANG (May 7, 2008)

if your power is cut off I see your siphon draining 75% of your tank water. thats the length of your perforated tube input to the overflow box.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

aquaBANG said:


> if your power is cut off I see your siphon draining 75% of your tank water. thats the length of your perforated tube input to the overflow box.


When you are using a perforated or a porous tube, you can defeat the purpose of the box to always maintain a siphon. Once the upper perforations are exposed to air, the siphon will break. Then if the power comes back and you have not turned off the pump, the water in the sump will be deposited in the top tank, running the pump dry and overflowing the top tank.


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## Murky (Jun 13, 2007)

aquaBANG said:


> if your power is cut off I see your siphon draining 75% of your tank water. thats the length of your perforated tube input to the overflow box.


if this is a skimmerless overflow the tube with all the holes in it goes over the back of the tank and into an overflow box below the height of a standpipe in the overflow box. this holds the siphon and it will not continue siphoning once the water has dropped below the standpipe. and I'm pretty sure he plans on not having any holes near the upper part of the siphon tube going down into the tank. that way the water line has some room to drop and still not break the siphon.. but yea.. something to watch for.


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## Charlutz (Mar 13, 2006)

Getting back to the original question and not the overflow design, you have nothing to worry about if you buy a big enough pump. Buy something that is built to be a water pump and don't try using a power head. Water pumps are designed with the idea that they will be pumping against gravity and return line constraints causing head pressure. Look at the water flow charts for your pump and see what the pump flow looks like with 8' of head or so. That will give you a closer measure of the actual gph your pump is moving. Buy a pump that exceeds what you need by at least 200-300 gph. When you do your plumbing, incorporate a ball valve on the return line of the pump so that you can cut back the flow to where your overflow can handle it and it will run quietly. Believe me, you want the ability to adjust your pump flow so that you can tweak the overflow and returns. Problem solved.


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## mok3t (Nov 28, 2008)

Yeah, i plan to have the holes starting lower down that the standpipe so the siphon never breaks.

As for the Pump thing, getting a super powered pump and then limiting it seems a bit silly. Isn't that just providing more stress on the pump? Just realized that there would still be 3 90degree bends even if i did run a 45 degree tube back to the tank. Adding a ball valve to this would provide even MORE resistance. Or this this like the gun and ammo situation? better to have more than you need than to need more than you have?


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## Jakemonaghan90 (Nov 30, 2008)

You absolutley want to have a stronger pump than you need. This way you can account for all of the bends and turns and the actual head height.

There are a number of things one can do with all the extra power. You can split the return and make a couple different ways of returning water...aka UGJs, spray bar, etc. This way, you can be sure there arent any dead spots.

I have a mag 7 for a 30 gallon tank. Way overkill, but this way, I run water from the sump and through my UGJs. With all of the extra flow, I will eventually be rerouting some of the water through an FBF. For now, however, I put a Tee from the return line and I use 2 ball valves (one on each pipe coming from the Tee) to direct all of the extra flow back through the sump for another round of filtration. I got this idea from others on this forum, and i assume that it has worked as well for them as for me.

This way, you can dial down the pump, reducing the amount of water that needs to get sucked through the overflow. This makes the overflow more quiet, and makes the system very versatile, all with out straining the pump.

Bigger is ALWAYS better!


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## mok3t (Nov 28, 2008)

You make a good point Jake. I think I'll buy the most powerful pond pump i can find then fit the ball valve on it. On that note, does it matter where i place the ball valve? Would be more convenient to put iy right on the part where it enters the tank again. But if it needs to be closer to the pump then it'll have to be there. Given the distance I'm making it travel i need to have everything optimal.


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## Jakemonaghan90 (Nov 30, 2008)

I dont think you need the most powerful pump...that will get a bit expensive...and...perhaps...oh well, Ill just say it. Bigger isnt always better...

I second the notion of going 200-300 gph more than you need. I usually aim for all of the water in the system to be filtered 10x an hour. Maybe thats a bit much but i think i read that it was a good idea...somewhere.

I think it is worth noting that your not making the water travel an extremely long distance. Sure, it is longer than you may want, but it doesnt take too much effort to pump water sideways...just up. So the head height isnt really much larger than the actual distance from pump to display tank.

On my setup I raised the sump as high as i could in the stand so that it was as high as possible but i could still access it for media changes. This way, I cut out about a foot of head height. I also put in a lot of sand in the pump chamber. This does two things: 1) Absorb vibrations from the pump (less noise) and 2) raises the pump another six inches. By doing this i acheived and extra 50-80 gph from the pump. The sand in the sump will also serve as a place for bacteria to grow...yummy.

Finally, to actually answer your question, i dont think it matters where the ball valves are. I cant see why it would, but if anybody out there knows something i dont (there certainly are plenty of those) I would love to be corrected.

It may be worth considering a gate valve instead of the ball valve. I know that some people hate PVC ball valves becasue they arent sensitive enough for fine tuning. They are more expensive though. I personally went with the ball valves because Im a college student that spends entirely too much money on calzones and...extracurricullur activities!

I was going to say use 45 angles rather than 90s...but an interesting though just occured to me. If your piping is traveling upwards at an angle, you would actually be increasing the distance that the water travels up, aka increasing your head height and reducing the pumps capabilities. Does anybody know anything about this? This would probably be worth your while to research...


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## Jakemonaghan90 (Nov 30, 2008)

sorry for the double post but i needed to add something...

If you put sand in the sump, you may want to research deep sand beds. There is some controversy surrounding this subject, but if you do add sand and it isnt shallow enough or deep enough (i.e. right in between) then you could possibly be allowing the wrong type of bacteria to grow. My memory is a little fuzzy on this subject. Maybe it is time for some more of my own research.

Good Luck.


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## Charlutz (Mar 13, 2006)

Putting a ball valve on a pump will not stress the pump. They are designed for this. There is some authority to say you will use less energy with the ball valve restricting the pump. As Jake said, you can split it back to the sump if you want, but you're just sending already filtered water back into your sump. I know a number of people on the forum do this, just not me.  As for placement of the valve, just put it somewhere you can easily access it.

I don't know about sand in the sump. I'd be concerned about getting sand in the pump impeller.


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## booba5 (May 3, 2008)

One question i have is that when power goes out yes, the siphon will stop, once the top hole is able to suck air in instead of water. What will start the siphon back up when the power comes back on? the air that stopped the siphon will still be in the intake, and nothing will be there to suck it out...


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## Hoosier Tank (May 8, 2007)

> Just realized that there would still be 3 90degree bends even if i did run a 45 degree tube back to the tank.


If you run the horizontal return pipe section diagonally using a 45 at each end, you would have 2 less 90 turns than what you drawing shows and 45's have less restriction than 90's.. but your head height will still be the same.



> One question i have is that when power goes out yes, the siphon will stop, once the top hole is able to suck air in instead of water. What will start the siphon back up when the power comes back on? the air that stopped the siphon will still be in the intake, and nothing will be there to suck it out...


By adjusting the height of the standpipe in the rear overflow box (or the U-bend in a PVC overflow unit) higher than the first hole in the siphon tube in the tank, the waterflow will stop before the hole is exposed.

Now for something completely different. Since your sump has to be offset, why not run the return straight up to a spray bay that extends across the back of the tank to the opposite side?
Just thinking out of the Box :?


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## Jakemonaghan90 (Nov 30, 2008)

Just a quick word on sand in the sump...

I should have mentioned that i use a sponge prefilter on the pump. It stays clean because the pump is obviously after my sponge and filter floss, but it keeps the sand out of the impellar.

I second the spray bar idea!


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## mok3t (Nov 28, 2008)

I think i'd use gravel under the pump, and maybe add some rocks to the same section. Adding more surface area for bacteria to grow on. Since thats going to be the cleanest water in the tank its increase the bio filtration by loads


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## Jakemonaghan90 (Nov 30, 2008)

Actually, sand has a much higher surface ratio than gravel or rock does. That is why sand is used in FBFs.

In any case, the extra bio filtration created by the sand in the sump chamber is probably negligible, unless one were to actually create a deep sand bed. And even then, people arent quite in agreement about the effectiveness of DSBs. Furthermore, when i was researching them, I didnt see them in use in freshwater setups. It has been a while since i looked into them though...


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## Jakemonaghan90 (Nov 30, 2008)

Sorry for double posting...but i just reread my post. Im not quite sure what surface ratio meant...but i meant surface area


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## Charlutz (Mar 13, 2006)

If the water is not being forced through the sand or gravel, I'd be skeptical about how much extra filtration you are getting. Plus, if you set up your WD tower with sufficient capacity for biomaterial, you shouldn't need any more in the sump. More is "always" better of course, but the beauty of building your own sump is to build it for what works for you. Put sufficient bio and mechanical filtration in there and you'll be happy. Or, build it and if you don't find that you have sufficient bio or mechanical filtration, just modify it. It's a hobby, not a one time exercise.


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## mok3t (Nov 28, 2008)

well i'll be keeping shrimp or maybe guppies in the open part of the sump. So i COULD force water through the gravel, this would also act as a mechanical filter for the guppy waste.


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## Murky (Jun 13, 2007)

just to clarify, the water level will only go down to the height of the standpipe in the overflow box. and this will keep the water level from dropping in the main tank and breaking siphon on the drilled holes in the intake pipe


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## mok3t (Nov 28, 2008)

Yes murky. Thats exactly how it works.


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