# Salvini hiding at top of tank...



## Comic Sans (Apr 21, 2009)

Hi, all, after lurking on this forum for some time, I thought it was time to join. I'm having a bit of a puzzling situation and being relatively new to cichlids I could use some help.

The (only) tank in question is a standard 29 gallon, it was a hand-me-down, complete with filtration rated for 40 gallons. It's been up for 2 months or so and has completely cycled (except for some diatoms). Nitrites are 0, Nitrates are under 20, pH and hardness within the range of the fish in question, so I know this isn't a water quality issue. The tank has bogwood, gravel and fake plants (for now).

My livestock are 4 tiger barbs (dithers), one male convict (2.5"), a female salvini (2.5") and a androgynous salvini (3.25"). Yesterday I also added a smallish pictus cat who has had no trouble adjusting. I know that this might be a little overstocked for the long term, I'd like to unload the convict if the opportunity presents itself, but you know how hard they are to get rid of.

The problem is with the female salvini. She was the last fish to be introduced to the tank, and spent a good 4-5 days in one corner head/tail standing behind a plant. Eventually she became bolder and seemed to pair up with the other salvini, which i believe to be male. They did the courtship and one batch of eggs were laid (i didn't witness it), but were eaten by the tankmates within 24 hours (i DID see that). I think that was probably too soon to know if they were fertilized so i can't be certain that they were viable and that the other fish is a male. "He" acts and sees like a male, duller colour, etc., but he does have a sort of dorsal patch and I've noticed what might be a gill patch developing...so i'm really confused. Anyway the female was guarding the eggs until the "male" chased her off and while she was hiding in the top corner the others came and ate the eggs. Ever since then "he" has been giving her a very hard time and she has been up in the corner, maybe a week or so. They are a young immature "pair" so maybe the bond can be repaired.

Yesterday I added a bunch more wood (and the cat) and rearranged the tank. There are a ton of hiding places and very few sight lines. However she is still right at the surface and the other two are still harassing her. The convict is becoming bolder and bolder towards her and I have witnessed a few fights. She does come down from time to time, but not for long. I was hoping she'd claim a territory (I introduced her back in first and gave her some time, but no luck i guess) but it appears not. All fish are eating normally, and i've been ensuring the girl gets an extra pellet or two a day so that hopefully she can catch up to the bigger guy and hold her own, but I'm afraid of the stress that is no doubt going on.

At the moment I don't have another tank to move either the aggressor or the weaker fish, and i thought i'd try rearranging the decor before putting in a divider (that would really limit their space). Anyone have any advice or experienced anything similar? I'm hoping she'll toughen up like she did when I first introduced her, I'm sick of worrying for this fish!

Thanks, I'll post pictures as soon as it gets dark enough for some good ones.


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## Comic Sans (Apr 21, 2009)

yikes, i guess i wrote a bit of a novel. I hope somebody will read it all!

Anyway, here is my tank:









The Little Lady:









The Convict:









The Bruiser:


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128 (Mar 22, 2006)

Welcome to the forum! :thumb:

You have a pair there! You have a female and male Salvini and the convict is infact a male as well. The reason why your female Salvini is hiding in the corner is because she is the less dominate fish and the male is the dominate. She is trying to hide from him and the fights you witnessed is because he is ready to spawn and she isn't ready. If you didn't have a male Convict in there the aggression levels on her would be worse but since he is in there it distributes the aggression so it's not all on her. However, removing the decor won't help at all and the reason is it's too small of a tank to keep a pair of Salvini and a Convict. The pair *WILL* need to be seperated eventually or kept in a bigger tank with other CA's to help distribute the aggression. A 55 gal IMO can keep a pair of Salvini but the pair will have to be alone. Salvini are very aggressive and hyper during spawning and could kill tankmates fast! They aren't called mini gauapotes for nothing! :wink: I am very surprised the Convict wasn't killed yet by the pair in a 29 gal. I imagine the 3 could work in a 55 gal but yet I would have doubts. The only solution is either get a bigger tank or get a divider and get rid of the Convict. That's just my opinon.


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## mariojess (Jan 24, 2008)

It's overstocked, you have to get a big aquarium at least 75G, try to upload more pics of your androgynous salvini, to determinate the sex. :wink:


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## Comic Sans (Apr 21, 2009)

Hey thanks Cichlid Lover! I was hoping/waiting for you to respond. What you said makes sense, it's what i suspected.

There is a larger tank in the works eventually, as i said the 29 is a hand me down, and everyone is still small right now, but once i can create some room for a bigger tank i'll be getting one. Since there isn't a specific timeline on this am I interpreting you correctly that, while not ideal, if i get rid of the convict the pair might work in the 29 for a while?

And until I can sort this out, do you have any tips that might mediate the situation, even a little? The temp is 76-78, maybe drop that another degree or two?


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128 (Mar 22, 2006)

> There is a larger tank in the works eventually, as i said the 29 is a hand me down, and everyone is still small right now, but once i can create some room for a bigger tank i'll be getting one


As long as theres a bigger tank in the works the pair will be fine in the 29 gal temporarily. :thumb:



> Since there isn't a specific timeline on this am I interpreting you correctly that, while not ideal, if i get rid of the convict the pair might work in the 29 for a while?


Correct and the reason is because they will be seperated by a divider which will stop the aggression and the female will find a territory and the male will find a territory and dominance won't be a factor. It will be like they both have their own tank............ only not. :lol: :thumb: However, you will notice the salvini hiding a lot as Salvini are very skitish and shy they are preyed upon by birds. This behavior is normal. They also stalk smaller fish and you might also notice that your tiger barbs will disappear. The convict is helping but not enough there is still aggression being put on the female which is why she hides in the corner getting rid of the convict and adding a divider instead will elminate the aggression and hiding in the corner.



> And until I can sort this out, do you have any tips that might mediate the situation, even a little? The temp is 76-78, maybe drop that another degree or two?


No don't drop the temperature keep it at 78-80. Really the only way to mediate the situation is just to get the divider.


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## Comic Sans (Apr 21, 2009)

well thanks for the help.

When they started flirting I picked up a divider because i thought this might be coming. I was hoping redecorating might have worked, guess I'll be doing that again. ****.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128 (Mar 22, 2006)

No problem! I am sorry I did forget to mention as mariojess suggested the tank is overstocked which is also part of the reason why you need a bigger tank or get rid of the Convict and get a divider. Good job that you picked up the divider before hand! :thumb: Sometimes redecorating works but in this case it wouldn't make a difference because the tank is too small and not enough room for the female to escape the males aggression. Also I must point out that even in a 55 gal or bigger if it was just the pair the female will hide in the corner when aggression hits which even then you will need a divider but it will be better because it will be more room for the aggression and size. Good luck! :thumb:


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## Comic Sans (Apr 21, 2009)

hey thanks. wish me luck unloading a male convict :roll:

by the way, in the event of a lost spawn how long do you find before the female is ready (and willing) to lay again? And what is the nature of the pair bond. Is this sort of thing par for the course?


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128 (Mar 22, 2006)

> by the way, in the event of a lost spawn how long do you find before the female is ready (and willing) to lay again?


The female will usually be ready every 2-4 weeks. It just depends on how well she is being fed and clean water. Weekly syphon water changes are a great idea and feed the Salvini like all other cichlids with a lot of variety! This is what I feed my Salvini and Cutteri:

Tetramin Flakes and Frozen foods: Brine Shrimp, Spirlinua Brine Shrimp, Beefheart, Mysis Shrimp, Bloodworms, Emerald Variety, Plankton, Krill, and I think they are called White or Glass Worms. It's very important to give the Salvini plenty of protien but also make sure they get some vegatation. I feed them flakes in the morning and alternate frozen foods every night. When I do my weekly syphon water changes I usually do around 50%.



> And what is the nature of the pair bond. Is this sort of thing par for the course?


It's a mother and father bond they will both look after the spawn and they are open and cave spawners. It just depends on how strong the bond is which the bond is strengthened by the co-op work of both parents. The stronger the bond the less fights and the bigger and more successful spawns. Does this answer your question? Sorry I am not sure what you are asking.


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## Comic Sans (Apr 21, 2009)

wow thats a pretty diverse diet! I generally do 30% changes weekly with vacuuming...with the added wood my tank is even more tannin central, so I sometimes pull 10% or so through the week if i have time, for aesthetic purposes more than anything.

What i meant was you say that even in a 55 the male may back up the female into the corner after a failed spawn. I was thinking that the pair bond might have been permanently broken. This was only their first spawn. Is the female likely to start flirting again once she's produced another batch of eggs?


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## Big Vine (Feb 26, 2007)

Comic Sans said:


> Is the female likely to start flirting again once she's produced another batch of eggs?


Most likely the male will continue his aggression against the female until such time that she is ready to lay another batch of eggs. Yes, she will resume courtship with the male when she's ready. He'll likely ease back on the aggression long enough to get the eggs fertilized, but don't be surprised if the aggression resumes at the onset of the wiggler stage (or slightly later, during the free-swimming fry stage).

My advice would be to make sure the female has a spot where she can hide unharmed.
If your tank does not provide this, then either a rearrangement of tank decor is in order, or you need to put a divider in there to make sure the female isn't killed.

Personally, I'd be tempted to add another 3 similar-sized females (or even slightly smaller) to the tank and see whichever one the male chooses to spawn with. You can then rehome the remaining females. Doing this will probably ensure that you get a more compatible pair. I'm not saying this would be an ironclad guarantee against all possible future bouts of aggression, but I still think it gives better odds for a more compatible pair.
BV


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## Comic Sans (Apr 21, 2009)

hmmmmm

thanks for the advice. I didn't have time to sort everything out last night, but this morning her fins were torn up pretty bad so I got the divider in asap. Poor thing's first encounter with it and she kind of flipped, scraping her side on some driftwood, so she's looking pretty roughed up.

She's alone right now though, with about 40% of the tank (I'll have to rearrange a bit more after work to give the other guys some more room. So hopefully in a week or two she'll be healed up and the convict will have been rehomed (if the male salvini doesn't off him first-i don't expect this)


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## Comic Sans (Apr 21, 2009)

forgot to add, with the addition of new decor and the male sal going agro, everyone's fins are a little frayed (just a little mind you, but getting progressively worse as we move down the hierarchy)

I've upped the temp a few degrees to up the metabolism and speed healing, but seeing as I don't have a hospital tank to remove everyone to, do you think dosing with melafix would be a good idea? salt? my concern is for the pictus with any kind of chemicals - i try to avoid them.


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## Big Vine (Feb 26, 2007)

The damage you describe does not sound like it warrants medicating the tank.
Main thing is to make sure that bullied fish (esp. the female sal) cannot continue to be bullied. You mentioned separating the female sal with a divider, so she should be okay. From what you describe, any damage to the other fish sounds like it will heal up on its own. If things get really out of control on the male sal/convict end of the tank, then rehoming that con ASAP is your best bet.

Just keep a close eye on frayed finnage and any other damaged areas---watch out for swelling/redness and/or white cottony (fungus) substance around the edges of wounds, as these are indicators of infection.
BV


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## Comic Sans (Apr 21, 2009)

well the divider is in, and the aggression level has gone WAY down. The convict is worst off, but I really haven't seen the male sal go after him and he isn't staying at the surface, so that's a good sign.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128 (Mar 22, 2006)

Good to hear that the aggression level has gone down. As to your previous post about medicating I would let the injuries heal on their own. Try to stay away from medications as much as possible! The only time I would use medications is if the injuries are really bad. Good luck! :thumb:


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## Comic Sans (Apr 21, 2009)

OK.

The convict is out, the LFS agreed to take him. I got $1.75 which was about $1.74 than I expected, haha. Hopefully he'll get a good home.

The divider is still up for now. The male has approached it a few times and the female was not aggressive, but she didn't seem real thrilled with him, so it stays in at least until I vacuum next week. Both are very shy (i don't blame them i've been a particularly frightening monster of late).

The female is acting normally otherwise, I'm feeding her quite a bit and she's eating well. She's SUPER pale though. almost incredibly washed out i've never seen her like this, not even when she was getting beaten up. Hopefully it's just stress and she'll calm down. The salvini's always amaze me with how vibrant they can be one minute and very drab the next...has anyone experienced a total drain in colour for an extended period of time?

Seems like crisis averted and the tank seems like it will be stable now. Thanks for the help!


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## Big Vine (Feb 26, 2007)

Comic Sans said:


> She's SUPER pale though. almost incredibly washed out i've never seen her like this, not even when she was getting beaten up. Hopefully it's just stress and she'll calm down. The salvini's always amaze me with how vibrant they can be one minute and very drab the next...has anyone experienced a total drain in colour for an extended period of time?


I would say stress, combined with her not yet being ready to spawn again.
The recent beatings she has endured, along with the changes in her environment, are likely the root cause of this stress which has led to her drab coloration.
BV


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## Comic Sans (Apr 21, 2009)

Well after a period of relative calm the male is up to his old tricks. He;s not really roughing the female up, but chasing her and she's up in the corner a lot again.

So i'm losing the battle in the tank as well as losing the battle for a larger tank. So unless things change I think I'll have to reorganize for a more long term setup.

I'm going to take the male into the lfs. Do you think a firemouth might work? Anything else that could work in a 29 with the female long term or will she have to be alone as a wet pet?


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## Comic Sans (Apr 21, 2009)

Well I took the male in and replaced him with a slightly smaller Firemouth.

The female sal has beat up on him/her a little but nothing to be concerned about. She's coloured back up nicely and will be the boss, just like I had hoped. Any problems and she stays as a wet pet though.

And it's amazing how her behaviour has changed! As soona s the male came out she has become a stereotypical wet pet. Right up to the glass if she even sees me looking at the tank, follows my finger, etc! Awesome!


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## steve_58 (Jan 20, 2009)

Are you sure you had a male and female sal and not two females? I have a pair of 2 1/2" sal's that bred a week after i put the female in the tank. As soon as they bred the aggression started. The tankmates they had were 2 -5" oscars ,2- 1 1/2" jellybean parrots and 2- 2 1/2" red jewels and they both gaurded the eggs. They beat up everything in the tank so badly i had to remove all tankmates and let them have the 55 gallon to themselves.Then after the fry were around 2 wks old i had to remove the male because he was roughing up the female trying to get her to breed again.They would get into a lip lock so hard that it was starting to really look bad around both the male and females mouth. He even started snacking on the fry.Other than that there was no aggression between them.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128 (Mar 22, 2006)

Yes, I am sure Comic Sans had a male and female.


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## Nik Nebber (May 14, 2009)

I muse on its true


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