# Help w/choosing a 3rd species for a new 240 gal malawi tank



## Ca-Delta (Jun 22, 2009)

Hello. We have tentatively decided on Pseudotropheus demasoni (Pombo Rocks) and Labidochromis caeruleus (Yellow Lab). We're thinking having a third species might be nice but we've having trouble. Dear Husband (DH) likes Metriaclima callainos (Colbalt Blue Zebra) but from what I've read they used to be under Pseudotropheus and are now reclassified as Metriclima so I am wondering if there will be agression/hybridization issues with the Demasoni.

Our other issue which I would appreciate the group to comment on is that we're thinking of doing 10-15 juvenile fish per species as we've read there are less agression issues when introducing juveniles together. But DH was at a LFS in Sacramento the other day and it was suggested to him that we just get breeding pairs and let nature take it's course to stock the tank.

The last question I have is where would you recommend getting fish? We've basically located in the northern bay area of California. If we go with the 10-15 juvenile appoach I'm leaning toward fish-by-mail as so far I've not been impressed with stock at the few LFS I've toured so far.

We're fishless cycling the 240 right now. Ammonia has crashed, Nitrite is really high and Nitrate is building so we're hoping that within the next couple of weeks we can stock.

Background: I last kept fish in the early 80's. DH never has. I know we're jumping into the big end with Malawi but our well water from the tap is PH 8.3 KH/GH 120/130 Nitrite, Nitrate, Ammonia 0 so it would appear that Malawi's would be our best choice. And no - I do not want to do marine.

Thank You in advance! I've been finding lots of great info on this site and have finally decided to "dive in".


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## Nor Cal Cichlid (Oct 24, 2007)

Exotic aquarium outta sac has sturgeon. :lol: welcome to the board. definatley stick to online dealers if your looking for quality. Have you been able to cash in on the stripper run? Me and my buddy been nailin em on Yozuri's, up near sac.


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

240 gallons and you're only putting in three common species? Why don't you go check out some online vendors or even check out the species profile to see exactly what you like. You could put pretty much any fish into a 240 gallon from malawi (with a couple exceptions) but go check that out before you make a final decision.

Let us know what your favorite fish are and what you'd love to keep in it .


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## Ca-Delta (Jun 22, 2009)

Thanks NorCal! LOL! The original place for the tank was to be in the store with striper, sturgeon, catfish. Needed to get it moved from it's former owners house so now it's in ours and although I have the application from Fish & Game for an "educational" tank of native species - we're nowhere ready to go there yet. I guess we'll just have to add another tank for that when we are! These things are like Fritos, can't just have one. Chris has already figured that one out!  DH has done pretty good although this fish tank project has been eating our lunch so we haven't been out nearly as much as we'd like. We've got a few future fish tacos in the freezer however. Looks like it's slowing down pretty quickly - Jay Sorrnson used 6 pounds of shad to catch 5 keepers last weekend. Lots of shakers - few keepers. And yes, it would appear that the best quality mbuna are going to be from online sources. Lots and Lots of hybrids in the few stores I've visited so far. Planning on trolling the Concord area on Tuesday but I don't have high hopes at this point.


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

Ca-Delta said:


> Thanks NorCal! LOL! The original place for the tank was to be in the store with striper, sturgeon, catfish. Needed to get it moved from it's former owners house so now it's in ours and although I have the application from Fish & Game for an "educational" tank of native species - we're nowhere ready to go there yet. I guess we'll just have to add another tank for that when we are! These things are like Fritos, can't just have one. Chris has already figured that one out!  DH has done pretty good although this fish tank project has been eating our lunch so we haven't been out nearly as much as we'd like. We've got a few future fish tacos in the freezer however. Looks like it's slowing down pretty quickly - Jay Sorrnson used 6 pounds of shad to catch 5 keepers last weekend. Lots of shakers - few keepers. And yes, it would appear that the best quality mbuna are going to be from online sources. Lots and Lots of hybrids in the few stores I've visited so far. Planning on trolling the Concord area on Tuesday but I don't have high hopes at this point.


Take a look at my post


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## Ca-Delta (Jun 22, 2009)

Thank You Malawi_luvr. Well, I have an issue... of owning 1 - 1.5" demasoni and 1 - 2.5" lab. I went to WallyWorld and purchased a 10 gal kit for a hospital tank with the idea of starting it out with a bunch of Giant Danios and then using those and filter media to start the 240. So I asked DH to go to the LFS in Antioch since he was headed to Home Depot anyway... (live in country - gas expensive - don't just run to town for the fun of it) to get some Danios. The gal there of course sold him the pombo and the lab and a bottle of "Tetra Start". sigh. I knew what the lab was when he brought it home but ended up naming the demoasni "Blue Job" and it took me about 6 hours internet searching for a positive id on the little bugger. Anyway, Blue Job & Jolly Jay are doing ok and we've become attached  Oh and we're a small business in a bad economy so I really don't want to lust after something that's going to cost me a 100 bucks! And being a newbie - I'm afraid of fatal mistakes although we're trying very hard to educate before we populate. Anway, yep they're common and there are some gorgeous malawi's out there. So our current idea is that it would be rather pretty to have a "flock" of 2-3 species in the 240 rather than having a mixed lot (and, reading that keeping Malawi's is like presiding over a war zone - I think I want the peaceful ones at least for the first tank). Do you think we can get away with more than 3 species? The DH (being a former bodyman/painter) is liking the blue & yellow mix and is leaning away from reds/greens. He says they won't look right under the atinic lights. I'm just afraid that blue fish + blue fish = fish fight. Also, I'm afraid to mix 4-5" adults with larger fish or am I just being silly?


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

Alright, generally speaking, mbuna are aggressive fish. The problem with most fish keepers is that they usually have only 55-125 gallons to house the fish in which is much smaller than what you have. With 240 gallons worth of water [depending on the footprint (dimensions)] more aggressive mbuna tend to get tired out or find it useless to chase other fish in such a large area.

What are the dimensions of the tank?

If this is a 8x2x2 aquarium I would say you could have around at least 10 fish per group and maybe 5 or 6 different species. It's a good thing your DH loves blues and yellows as that is what is primarily in lake malawi .

So far you're planning on:

Labidochromis caeruleus










Pseudotropheus demasoni










Then you already have a peaceful species and another that will stick with themselves when it comes to aggression.

If you guys like the blue/yellow combination I would suggest to take a look at these.

Cynotilapia sp. "hara"










Pseudotropheus Acei










Pseudotropheus sp. "Zebra Long Pelvic"










Pseudotropheus sp. "Elongatus Chewere"










Tropheops sp. "Red Cheek"










There are so many different types of mbuna you can choose from... Which do you think out of these you would want to keep?


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## Ca-Delta (Jun 22, 2009)

Thank You and Hello again Malawi_luvr. I really like the Cynotilapia sp. "hara. The Pseudotropheus Acei, I originally proposed; the DH didn't care for and based on the thread above tonight - http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... p?t=196336 that's really scary although it appears that they've mixed in adult acei with the juvy fish and that might be most of the issue.

Pseudotropheus sp. "Zebra Long Pelvic" that is a beautiful fish. I've been using this guide I found.. http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/cichlidcha ... hartd.html which would indicate that mixing any Pseudotropheus has an issue with hybridization. We're not looking to breed fish but if it did happen I don't want hybrids.

DH didn't care for Pseudotropheus sp. "Elongatus Chewere" although I thought they were very cute. Again.. issue w/Pseudotropheus mixing?

Tropheops sp. "Red Cheek" that is a beautiful fish. I'll have to show that one to DH tomorrow morning. He's sleeping.

yes - our tank is 8x2x2. Can't wait to get our 2 current fish in there - I think they'll really appreciate the extra room!

Metriaclima callainos; the DH's choice - will they go with the rest? He really likes that fish!

Ok, signing off for the night. My turn to open the store tomorrow morning! Thank You again for your input. We've been reading ourselves silly for 8 weeks and it's nice to get some opinions from people who have been doing this.

Penguins or Wings? I think the Wings blew it. But being raised in motown, I had high hopes until game 7.


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

You're welcome and I'm glad to help.

The problem with that aquarium is not only the mix of adult and juvies but the footprint of the tank as well. If you look the aquarium is 36x18x22 that's only a 3 foot aquarium and well I would think the acei would need at least a 4 foot aquarium to swim from end to end as they get a little larger. I have owned acei in my 75 gallon and never ever had a problem with my mbamba or any other fish.

The genus "Pseudotropheus" is just a generic term for malawi cichlids which have not been put into an "exact" genus. More and more cichlids are being put into their right place but you have to understand that just because they have the name pseudotropheus doesn't mean they'll cross breed. That site says neolamps and fronts can go together but I'm pretty sure the fronts would make a quick snack of them .

The red cheeks might be harder to find, but I'm very sure there are many vendors who will be able to have all of these fish for you . If you want to pm me I do know a reputable dealer with most of the fish you're interested in.

That tank size is very nice and you can house quite a few fish in there . To be honest I think the two little guys will get lost .

The Metriaclima callainos will probably not get along with the hara since they are very alike and will probably cross breed. The hara are smaller but I have no idea which fish you would rather get. Another fish that looks similar is the Cynotilipia Axelrodi which could be another choice .

Notice the similar coloration,

Axelrodi










Hara










Callainos










You want to try to avoid the same colored males/females as much as possible so any of these three fish would be a problem. Maybe get him to take a look through again to see what he would like 

You're welcome and let me know tonight some time what you think you guys would prefer  Maybe go through the profiles and make a list of the fish you both enjoy and we can go from there. 8 weeks will turn into years of experience and many.... many more tanks .

I was going for the pengs anyway  they deserved it.

-Garrett

EDIT - Do you have any pictures as well


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## bac3492 (Jul 25, 2008)

I think you might enjoy seeing a really nice colored labeotropheus male as well as a group of OB females do give some variation to the tank.

My favorite mbuna will always be the cynotilapia afra cobue.


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## animalcracker (Jan 1, 2004)

If your looking for diversity of color and body shape, Lake Malawi cichlids are the way to go. I agree with the previous post about questioning the common species addition rather than some more rare species. I would go on one of the online fish stores sponsered by this site like kens fish. Their stock is really great quality and many times when you purchase a lot there are discounts. You could get away with probably 20 or 30 different species and 5 or 6 fish per species. As long as there is enough rock work anything will work. Some fish that work together....Nimbochromis livingstoni, demasoni, red zebra, cobalt zebra, venustus, blue dolphin, johanni, yellow labs, hongi, red empress, socolofi, white top hara, and some beautiful peacocks and haplochromes. With all the diversity of color it really has potential to be a show tank. I would also add some sydontis species for cleanup. Don't be afraid it's a large tank aand the fish should have plenty of space especially when young.


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## animalcracker (Jan 1, 2004)

Another idea would be to go with tropheus, frontosa, calvus, brichardi, leleupi, transcriptus, julie, and maybe even a tanganykan eel.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

animalcracker said:


> Another idea would be to go with tropheus, frontosa, calvus, brichardi, leleupi, transcriptus, julie, and maybe even a tanganykan eel.


Except you wouldn't have a particularly good mix of fish, a number of typically incompatibles...


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## StephanieEnedy (Jun 22, 2009)

Congrats on setting up the new tank! It is definitely a nice size to start off with!! 

I think that the Metriaclima callainos would be a fine addition to your current stocking plans! They are very nice looking fish and would certainly compliment the blue/yellow that you have going on.

I think that it would be lovely to have 3 large groups of fish in the tank. You could also add something different like a school of synodontis catfish to the mix if you want to add more fish but not more cichlids. 

Shipping fish can work very well btw! I've been on both ends many times and have had lots of luck!

Good luck with everything! 

Stephanie


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

animalcracker said:


> Another idea would be to go with tropheus, frontosa, calvus, brichardi, leleupi, transcriptus, julie, and maybe even a tanganykan eel.


Your post just became redundant, sorry.

Synodontis would look good in the aquarium as well but if you are looking to breed the fish once you get them large enough you may want to look at some loaches. You'll have a few choices when it comes to bottom feeders .

Synodontis Petricola










Synodontis Multipunctatus










Synodontis Njassae










Clown Loaches










Let me know what you choose


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## Ca-Delta (Jun 22, 2009)

Dear malawi_Luvr, bac3492, animalcracker, fogelhund and StephanieEnedy - THANK YOU so much for your input! DH and I have been reviewing your choices. :-? Some really fine fish. I think that we've decided to go with MORE than 3 species. Probably 4-5, maybe even 6. DH is thinking calculate capacity at 1/2 adult size and stock it near full as we'll undoubtedly have attrition. Since it's his day to run the store tomorrow =D> - I think I'll be getting out the calculator, pad and pencil and working out a stocking plan. Which I'll post and we can chew over some more - one of our friends mentioned to DH today that there is something wrong with us. "Most people just get a tank and put fish in, what's wrong with you people?" AHH It's just what we are. [/img]Nitrite still about 5 - so no worries about needing fish tomorrow! opcorn: I'll try to get a picture of the tank that ate my living room while I'm at it!


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

Sounds good and I'm glad your cycling is coming along. I don't understand what you mean by calculate the capacity at 1/2 adult size? Could you maybe explain that to me a little better . I'm glad you guys will be going with more then 3 species as every species will act different and be able to give you much more entertainment.

Let us know what kind of stocking ideas you come up with . You could probably have around 60-80 mbuna in there if you'd like so work around those numbers. You'll need to start off slow so you don't get too much of a recycle. If you want you could maybe purchase some biospira before you add all of your fish if you get them all at once from a retailer.

It's good that you're taking time and reading about it before you get into the cichlid scene. Lots of people just go to the store and pick out the fish that looks cool to them but have no idea what they're doing.

Props to you 

-Garrett


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## Ca-Delta (Jun 22, 2009)

Good Evening! DH, Who is currently is looking over my shoulder, who can't type and has no fish experience :lol: agrees that 5-6 varieties is good. He wants to calculate on the 1" per gallon tank size which seems to be prevalant. If we calculate capacity to 1/2 the size of the adult fish and stock accordingly, darwin will likely do his job and we'll have a well stocked tank. He's thinking 5 varieties, 12 fish each, he's still having a tough time with the male/female ratio thing. But, he wants to stock it all in one shot, all one size to minimize agression. What do you think?

p.s. My dad was for the pengs too! Says Detroit has way too many europeans! LOL!!


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

Good evening to you as well 

5-6 varieties of fish sounds like a great starting point, work around the labidochromis and demasoni as a starting point. Don't include any other labidochromis species or anything that looks like demasoni. Then maybe decide what species you like and take a look at the males and females to make sure none of them look alike as well. Try to stay out of the same genuses as the fish you like the most except for pseudotropheus. Just make sure they don't look very similar.

1" per gallon isn't that great of a "cichlid" strategy to be honest. Although it does sound alright I don't think 5, 10" haps would be all that great in a 55 gallon aquarium . I say don't worry about the whole inches thing and worry more about species/ratio/tank size. 60 is a great number with 5 varieties with 12 fish each. You could do a 3m/9f but I wouldn't want too many more males with each species. Don't put only two males in with a group either as they will focus more on themselves then the females... So 1 or 3 or 5 are better numbers.

Stocking all 50 fish in one shot will need bio spira, look it up and I'm sure you could get some before you introduce your fish. You add the bio spira to the tank, 24 hours later you can add as many fish as you please without having to worry about a recycle . If you do that your fish will be fine.

 I just thought the pengs needed it more and crosby does deserve it even though he is a pansy


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## Ca-Delta (Jun 22, 2009)

Those darn males. It's all about them isn't it!!  Yes, I agree that we need to take into consideration other factors. I spent a little time this afternoon looking up some of the recommended species via google/you tube. There are people out there with some cool you tube videos of cichlids! It seems that in visiting the few LFS I've been to, LFS and youtube also shows a awful lot of hybrid fish. Probably going to go overboard on the stock list to eliminate hybrids. That's just NOT a good thing. I did NOT like some of the fish I saw this weekend in the two LFS I checked out in Sacramento. However, I did notice that one of them carried BioSpira and although supposedly when the fishless cycle is over, we can stock to hearts content - I think that using BioSpira wouldn't hurt. I did buy some food from each store I visited, just to provide some income for my time oogling their stuff. When DH came home with the fish, she sold him SF Bay frozen food (multi-fish formula) which I immediately whittled down to Emerald Entree & Spirula/Brine Shrimp. Bought New Life Spectrum Cichlid Formula yesterday. I HAVE BEEN trying not to overfeed. But that yellow lab is a great beggar and he is fairly handy at trying to run the demosani off his food. Anyway, fed them the NLS yesterday. Apparently a bit too much as about 10:30pm last night, I looked at the tank and Jolly Jay was looking a bit bloated and for all the world appeared to need a Rolaids. OH NOES! I've just killed my fish! But by this morning he was all feisty again and I made sure to give them a really SMALL! breakfast of Emerald Entree. DH asked why I was not feeding them much and the only analogy I had was - Ya know when you eat that 5th pancake and then feel like ****? That's what he looked like! :lol: 
yep: Pengs deserved it. RW got a bit too cocky and it bit 'em in the butt! Hopefully, they'll take that lesson home


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

When it comes to cichlids yes . Well, most fish stores don't really know what they're getting in or selling and usually have such high prices on fish it's insane. I would rather you go through an online TRUSTED vendor then a lfs in your area. This way you get the exact fish you'd like and however many you'd like without a problem. Online vendors will also throw in a couple extra if they're nice . If you want to end up with around 15 cichlids or so in each group I would start out with about 20-25 of each and start to weed them out slowly as they become larger. NLS is excellent stuff and I would only feed them that if possible . BioSpira is great stuff if you have it available to you and I would use it as a just in case scenario. Try not to overfeed as well .

Get a good list today sometime and I'll see how I can help you with it 

Don't forget some pictures .

Yep, they did and I know they'll take that lesson back with them.


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## Jolly cichlids (Jun 19, 2009)

if you can find these Metriaclima membe deep or metriaclima chinyankwazi these are two types that are pretty cool. We have them here in canada and i've seen them from old world exotics.good luck


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## Ca-Delta (Jun 22, 2009)

I thought I'd have the stocking list by now. But other things have intervened today. I was asked for a photo.... Here's the photo of the tank as we originally got it and a current photo.

http://www.eddosharbor.com/240GalFishTank.htm



















I'll be working on that next!

Have a great evening everybody! I may have a late post tonight or possibly tomorrow.


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

Looks great 

Get going on that stocking list!


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## Ca-Delta (Jun 22, 2009)

That whole trying to run a business/make a living thing has once again interfered with my crafting a stocking list. sigh. So I'm not going to make any more promises! I would like to thank once again, everyone who has provided input. Something that I thought would be really easy has turned into something complicated as now I really! want to have multiple species. It would appear that I have plenty of time as todays reading on the cycling tank hasn't budged a bit, Ammonia 0, Nitrite 5, Nitrate 8. opcorn: So I'm going to close down this thread and start a new one once I have a definitive list. Thank You all again for your opinions. It really has opened my eyes to a whole new level of creativity putting this tank together. Regards, Dawn


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