# lethargic fish after every water change



## dg32 (Dec 24, 2009)

I have a 46g bowfront with mbuna and every time I've changed the water (except for one time), I've had most/all fish become extremely lethargic and even had several fish die. It doesn't matter if it's a small 30% water change or a 50-70% water change, it seems to happen every time. I normally add a small amount of Prime to the tank after the WC is complete, although the one time they didn't have this problem I happened to add the Prime to the bucket of water as it was filling in the bathtub. I tried this method later and the fish became lethargic again. The other day I added some Seachem Clarity to the tank and it nearly killed every fish (I had to take them out and put them in my son's community aquarium immediately where they eventually recovered after a few hours), so I decided for my last WC (yesterday) to add no chemicals whatsoever. They still became lethargic, although they all eventually recovered. I checked my water parameters yesterday post water change and I got pH 7.4, ammonia 0.25, nitrite 0, nitrate 20.

I just checked the ammonia just now and it's back to 0; yesterday I took some water out and mixed in a very small amount of Prime along with 1 Tbsp epsom salt, 1 Tsp baking soda and 1 Tsp canning/pickling salt.

My question is: is there something I'm doing wrong that causes trauma to my fish during a water change? I happened to remove most of the rocks yesterday in order to remove four fish that I took back to the LFS, but this problem happens whether I remove rocks/fish or not. Should I be getting nitrate levels lower than 20 post water change? Has anyone else had this problem where most of their fish literally sit on the bottom of the tank after a water change is complete? I have a tetra whisper ex70 HOB along with an eheim 2217 filter, but I have no type of bubble wand thing in the tank. I normally try to fill the tank up completely with water, should I leave a gap so that water coming from the HOB creates bubbles when it goes back into the tank?


----------



## cindylou (Oct 22, 2008)

My fish do the opposite, they get very active and act happy to be in clean water...
Here is what I do: I use a python, after I take out the amount of water I need then I get a 1 gal. container and put the amount of prime I need for the tank I am cleaning fill it with temp set water and dump it in the tank...Then I hook the python back up and set the water to the same temp as the tank..
Fill the tank back up..
I never just guess on the temp I always keep the water at the same temp, I think that could be a big factor in what is happening to your fish..
I do my water changes every 7 to 10 days.
I also do not always check water perimeters unless I feel there might be a problem..
I just don't feel it is necessary with a good maintenance schedule..
And I do my filter cleaning at different times, never the same day as a water change and only rinse filter media in the aquarium water that I take out and use my 1 gal. container for..And only 1 filter at a time, never in the same day..
Then other days I do rocks, plants etc as needed..
This method has been working great for me and my fish...
Hope some of this info will help.. :thumb: :fish: :fish: :fish:


----------



## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Something definitely wrong if you have ammonia after the water change. One of the major reasons to change water is to remove pollutants. I expect to see no measurable ammonia before or after water changing. I also strive to keep nitrate below 20. Doesn't always get done, though. It is possible the water has more chlorine/chloramine than usual and you need to use more Prime than normal??? I would try filling a trash can or such and treating the water and getting it to the correct temp before adding to the tank. If clean water does not make them happy, there is a problem somewhere. More frequent water change sounds needed but not if it having bad results. Watch the temp of the new water. Water any colder than normal by 5-10 degrees can put them down. I found I could not reliably get the temp correct without using a reserve water supply with a heater and pumping it over to the tank the next day or so.


----------



## cindylou (Oct 22, 2008)

I hold a thermometer under the running water when I add the water back into the tank, once it it set to the right temp you are good to go..


----------



## HDrydr (Mar 22, 2010)

I also have lost fish to wrong temp so now I also use a digital thermometer under the water as it goes back into the tank so it is the same for sure....


----------



## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

*dg32*, do you know if your tap water contains chlorine or chloramine?
If you are getting an ammonia reading post-water change I would guess the latter.
What dechlor product are you using?
I am guessing that the one you use doesn't properly process chloramine or you need to use more of it.


----------



## &lt;=U=L=T=R=A=&gt; (Apr 21, 2010)

It seems its the ammonia they don't like.

When i do water changes only one fish which is a peacock that starts to get lethargic. I have my tank overstocked and do a 85% water change every 4 days just to keep the nitrate down to 20..

What I did to resolve this problem I add 12 drops of prime to each gallon and mix with water before adding. (The bottle says 2 drops per gallon but varies on the specs of your tap water)As far as temperature its to the touch.
And another thing is that i take off the the whole lid, and have the air bubbles on.
In my case , If i don't take the lid off, the ammonia remains longer.
And the ammonia reads at .50  , Compared to taking off the lid which it goes from .10 to 0 in a matter of minutes.

Hope that helps On the ammonia part :wink:


----------



## dg32 (Dec 24, 2009)

I use Seachem Prime during water changes. Thanks for the advice all, I'll post updates.


----------



## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

The problem with water temperature when filling the tank will depend on how your water lines run. Here in this area there is little energy conservation thinking by builders. My house is only thirteen years old and they put the water heaters in the garages and have massive free air vents through the wall so that the heater and plumbing are vertually outside. In the winter the first five minutes of hot water may average 50 degrees. In the summer it may be near 100. With the faucet in another room there was just too much hassle trying and failing to get the correct temp.


----------



## dmichel (Sep 16, 2009)

I second *smellsfishy1* about the chloramine/chlorine. Does your tap water smell a bit like swimming pool water ?


----------



## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

How often do you typically do water changes? 
Over time without water changes your tank's ph will drop. How quickly it drops depends on your bio load, your starting ph and you kh level. At lower ph levels any ammonia is converted to a non toxic form and the fish are fine with it. 
The problem occurs when you do a water change the new water has a higher ph level. The ph in the tank goes up--fast and the ammonia instantly reverts back to its toxic form and fish will show typical signs of ammonia poisoning.

Another thing you might do is call your local water company and ask them what they put in your water. Ask them if they've done anything differently recently. Find out if they or anyone has been working on the pipes that deliver the water to you house.

And one more thought: what do you use to put the water in the tank? A bucket? Any chance anyone else in your household has used that same bucket to wash a floor--the car?

Are you using the proper amount of Prime? If your water is heavily treated with chlorine or chloramines then you may need to use a higher dose.

Robin

And yes, get the nitrate down. Feed less, siphon the gravel, do more frequent water changes, and if you've got more than 2-3 inches of gravel you might consider removing some of it.


----------



## dg32 (Dec 24, 2009)

*PfunMo*, I usually wait until the water coming out of the faucet is at a temperature is at a usable level before I start filling the bucket. I can't remember a time when I ended up changing the temps that much in either direction during a water change, but I will try and pay more attention to that issue.

*dmichel*, I can't really detect a swimming pool water smell on my tap water, but it does have this odd taste.

*Robin*, I usually do water changes about once every 7-14 days, anywhere from 30%-50%. This last time I happened to take about 60% of the water out in order to help me remove 4 fish that were going back to the LFS. The water out of the tap is 7.4, and with the buffer recipe I got from this site, it gets to 7.8. I do use a bucket for water changes, and I can't remember if my wife has used it to wash a floor (if she has, it hasn't been lately). I have used the same bucket for my son's tropical community aquarium and the fish have not shown any illness immediately after a water change like the mbuna have. Usually I'd pour a capful of Prime into the tank after completing the water change, although I decided one time to pour small amounts of Prime into the buckets before I poured the water into the tank, and the fish were very lively afterward. However, I tried that method again and they once again reverted to the lethargic state once everything was finished.

At this point it seems like they are likely to survive since they have all been in the tank for 2-3 water changes, but I hate the stress of seeing them look like they're about to die when I'm doing something that supposedly helps their quality of life. I have a group of 10 juveniles in there and one of the males is really starting to show his colors, I'd hate to lose him or any other of his tank mates.


----------



## dmichel (Sep 16, 2009)

hmmm... do you know anyone else with a fish tank in your area (i.e. using the same tap water) with the same problem ?

7-14 days, anywhere from 30%-50% sounds like a lot to me... although that would depend on the stocking level. How many fish do have in there ? Is the level of amonia that high after a week that you need to change half of the water ?

Could there be a problem with the stuff you add to the water, i.e. the seachem prime thingy ? I would try no adding anything next time as a try, In my experience, adding chemical product can always go wrong...

also I'm thinking, could the chemical change that happens in your tank (water change + addition of prime) be so great that it kind of knocks the fish out for a while till they adapt to their new environment again ?


----------



## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

I don't blame you for being frustrated.

I might still try dosing with the Prime as you refill rather than just at the end. It could be your water is more heavily treated for chlorine/chloramines by the the town. I've known of people who had water that was so heavily treated that they had to have it completely treated prior to putting it in the tank. I would call your water company and see what they can tell you.

But is this a fairly new phenomenon with this tank? Was there a period of time when you were doing water changes and this problem wasn't occurring?

And when you did these water changes did you also siphon the gravel and/or move any rocks or decorations? Is your gravel very deep? Something else that can happen especially with deep gravel is you'll get a build of anaerobic bacteria in the gravel. When it's disturbed via gravel siphoning or moving things around it can cause a serious problem for your fish. The fact that your nitrate is hanging somewhat high makes me suspicious. Deep gravel may look attractive but there's no positive health wise for your fish in having it any deeper than a few inches.

Another thought: do you work with anything that might leave a residue on your fingers? Gas, oil, cologne? A little of one of these toxins goes a long way in the tank.

Do you turn off your filters for any length of time during water changes? Ideally you don't want them off for more than a few hours otherwise it's possible for your beneficial bacteria to die and this would cause a spike in your ammonia. 
Have you checked to make sure the filters are running correctly? There should be a good strong flow coming out of the filter return and there shouldn't be any kind of heavy build up on any of the media.

Robin


----------



## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I think Robin has touched on something we often overlook. Some of the normal things we do can kill our fish. Something as mundane as using hand cream because our hands are chapped. The oils can get in the tank when we do our work. Scrubbing our hands real good with soap and water before we do the tank. The wife using a new air freshener because the fish room smells musty. Ask your self if there is anything that you may be doing different.


----------



## cindylou (Oct 22, 2008)

I hope no one would ever use room spray around fish tanks... :-?


----------



## dg32 (Dec 24, 2009)

As far as I know my hands have always been free of any type of oil/perfume/dye/anything else that would affect the fish. I've had the (new) tank up since around December and I've been having the same problems throughout that time frame.


----------



## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

One would think nobody would spray around tanks. But then it's not the things we know we are doing that bite us. Just think about the way people drive and you can imagine they would go home and use hair spray while changing water. :lol:


----------

