# Bad Rock? Bad Process?



## nordg2 (Jul 24, 2017)

I have a 55 gallon Mbuna aquarium. I've currently have ceramic cichlid stones in my tank, but I want to change to having real rock. After reading about different types of rock to use in a cichlid tank I settled on some red sandstone (it's a hard sandstone, not as crumbly as most sandstone).









I bought it from a local landscaping store. I tested them with vinegar and no visible bubbles or anything. Cleaned them off with a bristle brush and a hose. I then put it in the dishwasher for a full cycle without cleaner.

I didn't want to just throw all the rocks in my aquarium without testing them, so yesterday I put some of the smaller rocks in a small fish bowl and put one of my Mbuna in the bowl around 8AM. Around Noon he seemed just fine, but when I got home from work around 6PM it was dead, with it's mouth as wide as I've seen it go.

I'm thinking that maybe I should buy a new bristle brush as I've used the one I have with chemical for cleaning, and maybe the dishwasher may have had some left over detergent in the pipes or something.

Is there a way I can use my rocks or are they just bad? Is there anything wrong with my process? Maybe some suggestions on better more successful rocks to use? Maybe I shouldn't be using red rocks? I'm just not sure how I could have done this better.

I want to try again, and I want to give it the best opportunity to succeed.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Just curious, did you have any aeration on the small fish bowl?


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

The bad thing about sandstone is that it's extremely porous and can absorb chemicals like a sponge. It's better to use rocks with a more dense makeup.


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## nordg2 (Jul 24, 2017)

I didn't have any aeration in the bowl. I filled it with aquarium water. I figured that it would be ok for about 8-9 hours. I wasn't going to leave him in there longer than that.

But never did I see him going to surface to get more air like they did a few weeks ago when the power went out and my filters stopped working while I was gone.


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## nordg2 (Jul 24, 2017)

What type of rocks have a more dense makeup would you suggest? I'm not too interested in the more unnatural (In my opinion) rocks like Texas holy rock. I've thought about granite. I like the look. But I worry about how heavy it is.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I'm sure the lack of oxygenation is what did him in and maybe residue from dish detergent getting into the rocks helped. Either way, you can't eliminate the sandstone as the culprit unless you throw in an air stone, use tank water and possibly sacrifice another fish. Granite is a good one and the weight isn't a problem unless you have trouble bending over to put them in the tank. The weight of the rock is usually pretty close to the amount of water it displaces anyway, besides, the tank bottom is a lot stronger than you would think. There's YouTube videos of people stacking ridiculous amounts of rocks in an aquarium in an attempt to break it.


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## nordg2 (Jul 24, 2017)

Ok. I'll buy the stuff I need tonight and try it out tomorrow. How long is long enough to have a fish with the rocks to have a good idea they are safe? Also, is there anything more for the rocks I should do to try and remove some of the possible cleaner that got in them? I've changed the water and just the rocks in the water.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

A couple of days should be sufficient with a fish in the rock water. If it kills the fish I'd use the rocks for the garden and go get some new ones.


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## nordg2 (Jul 24, 2017)

Quick update. I've added a bunch of rocks into a bucket with an air stone. It's almost been two days and the fish is still alive! I'm so excited to be able to add these rocks to my tank! Thanks for the advice!


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Good deal and glad we could help!


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I use lots of rocks and find many of the "standard " tests are not good for my use. I go a totally different way to decide. Step one is to recognize that water varies a great deal from place to place. That leaves results to vary a great deal also. So I want the answer that works for the water I use, not necessarily for the water in other tanks. 
I have very hard, very alkaline water. GH above 300, KH above 21 grains hardness. So I can add limestone without any change in my water. With that amount of buffering, I can also add almost any dry wood without seeing change in the PH. Definition of "buffer"? 
But what I don't want to do is introduce some unknown item that is unsafe. 
Things we might find and not spot are oils, pesticides, fungus, etc. but those are all easy to deal with when a few precautions are taken. I don't want to expose my tank items to detergent like that left in dishwashers but I do want them sterilized. I want my tank item clean and sterile, just like my drinking water so I treat it the same. 
Most drinking water is cleaned with chlorine and we find it easy to deal with in the tank, so I do the same and do a bleach soak. Cheap, easy and totally safe for the fish if we do some basic thinking. 
Chlorine is a gas by nature and will gas off when exposed to air. That's why we smell it when around a pool where the chlorine content is high. So we can use this for our benefit. Soak the rocks to sterilize them, then let the chlorine gas off as it dries! When you no longer smell the bleach, the chlorine is gone. But then some still worry and do a soak in water with a dechlor product added. 
I do simple. Rinse, clean, soak in bleach water, rinse and let dry! Just like I do my dishes! I want them both clean and safe.


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## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

PfunMo said:


> I do simple. Rinse, clean, soak in bleach water, rinse and let dry! Just like I do my dishes! I want them both clean and safe.


for how long do you soak them in water?... would 1 to 5 ratio suffice?... and what about boiling them or at least soaking them in boiling water?...


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I prefer to boil if anything... If you use bleach water, make sure to soak the rock for 24 hours in a high concentration of dechlorinator before adding them to the aquarium


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## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

joselepiu said:


> PfunMo said:
> 
> 
> > how long do you soak them in *water*?... would 1 to 5 ratio suffice?...


meant to say: ""bleach water""...


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

For bleach soaks, I vary the time and the amount of bleach as they are both strictly estimates. 
That means I use a lot of bleach for rocks that I know will not be harmed. Maybe a cup in a 55 gallon tank and leave it overnite. But then if it is something more fragile like plants where I want to kill snail eggs but not the plant, I may go a teaspoon of bleach in a gallon of water and only a quick dip and immediate rinse. Big old hunks of wood, I just use whatever container is big enough to fit and pour a good amount of bleach in. Maybe around a cup? Not a precise amount and the only thing that matters to me is that I am sure there is plenty of chlorine to react with all the dirt, grime, oil, bugs, etc that I want to kill. The point is that the chemical reaction between the chlorine and whatever organic it finds will continue until one or the other is gone. I often just set the wood in and go off on some other project until I get time to come back again. I try not to wait too long or the chlorine is all gone and I may find mosquitos breeding in the water! Two weeks is too long! 
A half cup and an overnight is normally plenty but adjust it as needed if you feel it may take a week to soak into a full blown stump? 
But all these points can lead us back around to boiling versus bleach soaks. 
What container to use and how do you actually keep that amount of water boiling if you have a large piece of wood? How long does it take for water to soak into all the little cracks and crevises that oil may have soaked into? Two hours, four hours? You can't get boiling water out of a water heater so do you set a tub out in the yard and build a fire for four hours! Likely to melt the solder off the tub if you do that. Anyway it seems really slow, difficult and possibly dangerous to work with boiling water. 
But the biggest problem for me is that the boiling will not remove oil. Boil oily wood and the oil floats around and comes back down on the wood when it cools. So instead of wood with oil on it, you get wood that has been boiled in oily water. Just not a big improvement to me. 
I've read lots of comments that state the bleach will soak into the wood and won't come out. Leaves a magic residue that only comes out to kill fish! When somebody can actually put a name on that residue, I will be glad to study it but so far that has not happened. I've not found the liquid that soaks in but won't dry out let alone a chemical like chlorine that is a gas by nature. I have to keep putting more chlorine in the pool because the dang stuff just keeps blowing away! 
Just use extra care to not get it on your clothes or good stuff like that. Cotton is an organic and chlorine does react with organics. One of the first lessons of college life is "don't pour the bleach directly on the clothes"> Is that how tie dyed clothes got to be so common?


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## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

i will use then the ""bleached water"" method, i have a 15 gal trash can that i use to make wc on my tank a 55 gal, that has been soaking my mopani driftwood for some time now, that i can take out to then soak the stones, (this time i going to have a dripper system so i do not have to do wc as often as before, 1/2 gal p/h dripper) back to the rocks / stones, would a mix of 1/4 of cup and 15 gal water overnight suffice?...

thx again...


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

You live in Texas pmo, haven't you heard of a crawfish pot lol. I have that and also a big roasting pan that I can put on the stove. Chlorine does not make oil or other chemicals disappear as was stated, it's a disinfectant not a miracle worker. That magical residue that leaches out is a chlorine salt (sodium hypochlorite) PMo. You're right that chlorine is a gas by nature but bleach is sodium hypochlorite and chlorine tablets for a pool are trichloro-s- triazinetrione not chlorine GAS... If you were exposed to even a small amount of actual chlorine gas you would die fairly painfully. We use compressed chlorine gas for certain processes at the chemical plant I work for. You can use a dilute bleach water solution to clean the outside but if you soak them, you must either leave it in dechlorinator solution for at least 48 hours or let it sit outside to dry for several days. I have recently gone over to the school of thought that if it's questionable in the first place then don't use it. I have too much time, money and emotion invested in my fish to risk their lives over saving a few bucks.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Also it's too easy/cheap to get really nice rocks that are clean.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

One of the main reasons I know it is safe and effective is the number of people who do use it. I have been using it almost continuously since about 1965 and I have never killed fish with bleach. I have killed them in dozens of other ways, but not with bleach. 
So the choice becomes this? It is safe or I just come here and post to try to make you kill your fish! 
Your choice which to believe!


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Bleach does have to be neutralized before anything that is cleaned with it is placed in the aquarium. I didn't say that you couldn't clean anything with it, I've even recommended using it to clean aquarium related items, bu it has it's limitations. Bleach is effective at killing bacteria and other simple organic life forms but is ineffective against oils or chemicals. You have to be specific about the entire process or someone that doesn't know any better could accidentally kill their fish. Also the main point I was trying to convey is that if you feel a need to soak something in bleach water for a few days, it probably isn't worth the risk...


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> Bleach does have to be neutralized before anything that is cleaned with it is placed in the aquarium. I didn't say that you couldn't clean anything with it, I've even recommended using it to clean aquarium related items, bu it has it's limitations. Bleach is effective at killing bacteria and other simple organic life forms but is ineffective against oils or chemicals. You have to be specific about the entire process or someone that doesn't know any better could accidentally kill their fish. Also the main point I was trying to convey is that if you feel a need to soak something in bleach water for a few days, it probably isn't worth the risk...


Suggest more study needed here! 
For a quick easy read, this is one point. Not a high tech voice but just the general knowledge folks have learned. 
http://www.seattletimes.com/life/lifest ... ach-works/

Keep in mind that no mother every soaked diapers in Prime! Enjoy. :thumb:


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Okay, I don't see what that has to do with anything that we were discussing but thanks for the article.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> Okay, I don't see what that has to do with anything that we were discussing but thanks for the article.


I thought this part was important.

Quote:
Sodium hypochlorite is NaOCl. Since table salt is NaCl, bleach is very similar to table salt and reverts to table salt if left out. For example, the bleach in tap water will be gone if you let an open container of water stand for 24 hours. This is especially important if you have fish in an aquarium. Fresh tap water will kill fish because of the chlorine. But if you let the water stand for 24 hours, it is fine for fish.
My point being that it does not need to be neutralized but it will be gone if you let it dry.
To recap what I am saying? 
The OP can be sure that his rocks are clean and sterile by doing a bleach soak. Chlorine reacts with organics. In this use organics are all carbon bearing items. So since oil is a carbon bearing item, the chlorine will react with the oil and neutralize it so that it is safe for use with fish. Once we have soaked the item, letting it dry totally will let the chlorine gas off. It does not have to be neutralized as it removes itself! When we leave bleach out by not closing the lid, what we get will be water with a tiny bit of sodium left. Totally useless stuff. But we can use that to our advantage when we want to get the chlorine out, whether it is tap water or an item we have soaked in bleach water. The only difference in tap water and bleach water is the amount of water diluting the mix. There is no reason to fear bleach because if we dilute it enough, it is only just simple tap water! Bleach is what small community wells like a mobil home park might use to disinfect their water. We do not die because we breathe a bit of chlorine gas. It is totally different than the liquid chlorine you mentioned at work. When the chlorine gas is compressed enough to make it a liquid, you are dealing with a totally different safety factor. A jug of bleach we buy at the grocery store is not a jug of chlorine but mostly water with only 5-10 % chlorine. 
Nothing to fear as women have been using it for decades.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Once again, I NEVER said it can't be used to clean things in the aquarium, only that it has to be neutralized before being placed back in the aquarium. I even said in an earlier post on this thread that I've RECOMMENDED using bleach to clean a tank on this very forum. Also I've been an operator at a chemical plant that produces chlorine, I know everything about it and its limitations. You're like a average joe trying to tell a doctor how to do his job on this one.


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