# Look what I brought home!



## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Aren't they cute


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

And vicious, supposedly... Dunno - never owned them..


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

I traded away my excess 3 male rusties for them. Hoping to get 1-3 FEMALES ONLY to try in my 125 display. They will soon be joined by half a dozen red zebras out of which I will try to keep 1-3 females as well. Just a little experiment I have to try... auratus are THE fish that inspired me to research and get into african cichlids, I have to give them a try.


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

I like the idea of trying to keep them in large groups, if you've got room get another 6.

One thing I don't like about tank raised Auratus is that the males often look brownish, and the females can get brownish when mature. Hopefully the dominant male gets a nice black and white and the females stay colorful in a group.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

noki said:


> I like the idea of trying to keep them in large groups, if you've got room get another 6.
> 
> One thing I don't like about tank raised Auratus is that the males often look brownish, and the females can get brownish when mature. Hopefully the dominant male gets a nice black and white and the females stay colorful in a group.


Oh no I'm not keeping any males. I don't have a 6' tank to dedicate to a large group, and I won't risk the rest of my fish. This is just an experiment to see if a few females can peacefully live with other mbuna groups. Anyof them start turning black, right back to the store!


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

It's been shown before that in the absence of any males, proven female auratus can change sexes into sexually viable males. Pretty nuts.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

> It's been shown before that in the absence of any males, proven female auratus can change sexes into sexually viable males. Pretty nuts.


Mutants! :lol:


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## football mom (Feb 19, 2006)

I successfully kept a single female auratus in my 90 mixed mbuna tank.


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## dielikemoviestars (Oct 23, 2007)

Kanorin said:


> It's been shown before that in the absence of any males, proven female auratus can change sexes into sexually viable males. Pretty nuts.


With African cichlids? Cite this, please. I've heard of it with amphibians, clownfish, and a few others, but never with cichlids. Male coloration, yes. Actual sexual transformation?

Rhinox - you know, despite their reputation, I love auratus. They ARE beautiful fish, and I would love to have a tank dedicated to a massive colony of them someday.


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## typo (Feb 9, 2011)

the new york times published an article about hermaphroditism in fish way back in 1984.

it doesnt mention african cichlids specifically but they cant be that much different form marine fish.

http://www.nytimes.com/1984/12/04/scien ... gewanted=1

this next article, published in 1998, talks specifically about afrcian cichlids. it goes on to note that the Metriaclima livinstonii is known for females changing sex.

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Publications/ ... fishes.cfm

i dont find it hard to believe that an auratus can and will change sex if necessary.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

dielikemoviestars said:


> Kanorin said:
> 
> 
> > It's been shown before that in the absence of any males, proven female auratus can change sexes into sexually viable males. Pretty nuts.
> ...


I was involved in a thread about the sex changing potential of auratus here a year or so ago now I think. I believe females turning into males is just yellow juvies and sub doms turning black, or known females showing male coloration, and not actual sex changes. I haven't seen actual proof that it happens in auratus, but the guy in this thread was pretty insistent.

There was also a documented paper about sex changes in Metriaclima lanisticola, I believe, a Malawi mbuna. Its all in this thread.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... highlight=

But yeah, I love these little mbuna. The most attractive females in the lake, IMO, and even better looking than males of some species. At one point before I ever did any research, it was the only fish I even knew as a cichlid :lol:


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## hongi7480 (Jan 20, 2011)

The auratus and chipokae are the only cichlids that actually change sex. If you were to buy a dozen juveniles they would all be yellow and female. When they reach sexual maturity the dominant female will "change" into the male. If you were to leave the fish be you would only ever have one male. If you were to remove the male the next dominant female would then "change" into a male. You can return the original male to the tank and have two males but the subdominant one would loose the majority of his dark colors. Once they turn to a male they can't change back. I do not have any documentation of this but I have raised and breed them for about 10 years. I ran a 75g with about 20 of them. I would usually "make" 3 males for the tank. These are an awesome fish and I would say they are no more aggressive then any other mbunas.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

*hongi7480*
This is what I was talking about. The color change is not a sex change. Lots of other species are dimorphic, and males change from juvie/female to mature male coloration. Just because the dozen, or half dozen in my case, are all the same color does not mean they are all female. Some of my 6 are male already, they just need some time to mature to show it.

Now, I plan on keeping females only, and when I say that, I mean the auratus will be banished to their own tank until a female is holding*, at which time it will be separated from the auratus colony and either added to the 125 or to a different tank. If I get 3 females this way and put them in my 125, and then one day I notice 2 of my female auratus spawning and I end up with viable auratus fry, I'll take back everything I've said and I'll be sure to post pictures as proof or whatever. Until then, auratus do not actually change sex. 

*The trick will be, keeping a male around long enough in a 40br or 33XL who will spawn with females for me but not kill off the tank, giving me time to identify a female or 3.....


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

Yeah I was also remembering that thread, but I must have remembered it wrong. The paper is on Metriaclima Lanisticola. But there was one member who claims to have a female auratus, who held a batch of fry later turn into a male. I tend to believe that this can happen given the right conditions.

Sorry to derail your thread!

Now on topic - Go for the auratus addition. They are pretty fish. I wish they weren't so mean!


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## hongi7480 (Jan 20, 2011)

There are at least a dozen articles if you search sex changing auratus. I know the difference between dimorphic and sex changing. It has been proven that the auratus will actually change sex when in a situation when no males are present. Like I said, I have been raising these fish for 10 years. I have had the same fish lay eggs, then turn into a male because I forced it to happen. One auratus in a tank will not change since there is not another for it to breed with, but add a second and it will turn.


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## hongi7480 (Jan 20, 2011)

There are at least a dozen articles if you search sex changing auratus. I know the difference between dimorphic and sex changing. It has been proven that the auratus will actually change sex when in a situation when no males are present. Like I said, I have been raising these fish for 10 years. I have had the same fish lay eggs, then turn into a male because I forced it to happen. One auratus in a tank will not change since there is not another for it to breed with, but add a second and it will turn.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

It was actually a fairly recent article by someone whose name I recognized in connection with Africans. They got it to happen in the lab. I'll see if I can find it somewhere. All of us were suprised!


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

yeah DJR it was the paper on the metriaclima that Kanorin linked to: http://www.asihcopeiaonline.org/doi/abs ... lCode=cope

Anyways whether they do or don't isn't important to me at this junction but lets say I end up with 3 females, I'll take pics when they're holding at which time I'll separate them in preparation of moving them into my 125. I won't do this until they hold because last thing I want is a rogue auratus male I don't know about wrecking havok on my more important stock. I'm hoping to get 3 females, so, in theory, if I get 3 females in the 125, 1 of them should turn to male and if this happens, I'll try to document the event with pictures and see if there are viable fry (and not just 2 females pretending to spawn and holding unfertilized eggs for a few days). I didn't mean for this to be a science experiment, and even if they don't switch sex for me doesn't mean they can't afterall there will be males of other species around so that may surpress the sex changing characteristic if it exists.

This conversation has been had before and I don't desire to fight about it now with anyone. All I have said is that I don't believe they actually change sex and will keep that belief until provided with some proof. Usually this is met with the defensive "I've been keeping fish for 1000 years I don't need to prove anything to you" and that is fine. All the same I don't have to blindly accept something as fact without something a little more than anecdotal evidence. Believe me I would find it absolutely fascinating if I find I get a female auratus to legitimately switch from female to male and if it happens I'll be the first to eat these words. I would love to have a couple 6' tanks to carry out an appropriate experiment to see if I can get it to happen in a controlled environment but I just do not have the resources right now to do that.

Anyways, back to my little 6 auratus. I have noticed that these 6 tend to turn off their yellow coloration on their bellies. I don't know if its bad quality or stress or just getting used to the new tank. They're not as attractive when the yellow goes away. But all 6 of them patrol the tank in a tight group of 6 its more "schooling" than any of my other new mbuna juvie purchases have ever done. None of them have really schooled, let alone in as tight a group as these guys. I can see how people find it hard to believe they get so mean I myself can't believe that in a few months all **** could break lose.

ah well, looking forward to watching them grow and get a little first hand experience with them.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

I am interested in following this & see what the results are 6 month's from now... I have always thought they were very attractive.. Just not attractive enough for me relative to their reputation & risk involved..

Best of luck though with the experiment.. I hope it is successful.


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## monisaab (Jan 12, 2011)

All the best Rhinox.

I too have 6 auratus juveniles and love them. Hope 1 of them turns male & I can breed them.


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## Myrock (Mar 7, 2010)

They will change. Also there will be lots of fights.


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## monisaab (Jan 12, 2011)

Yep I've been told about this...

I can already see one of them as the BOSS in the tank. Chases everyone around. He's around 1.5 - 2 inch in size. In fact they all are about this size...


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## Chunkanese (Feb 4, 2011)

I've had a male for about a year he's about 5 inches jet black. Not aggressive at all and I got a bunch of juvis and adult mbuna in there all pretty much males. In fact I would say he's probably the least aggressive adult in there.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Just a pic showing what I mean about my juvies turning off their yellow coloring. Just before I turned the light on this morning, they yellow was darker. I suppose as they grow and mature, the yellow will be turned on brighter and more often? I've never seen auratus with the yellow turned off before but at the LFS they had 2 tanks of them 1 tank looked faded like these guys the other tank looked all bright yellow. I selected from the bright yellow tank but these guys have the faded look now too...


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

I'd guess that they are adjusting to the tank and the pecking order within the tank. I bet that the bright yellows will return within 2 weeks or so.


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

I hope they "yellow up" for you when they're comfortable.

Female auratus are such dazzling mbuna - perhaps the fairest of them all.

But count me among those scared off by the horror stories. Sound like your plan is a good one worth trying.

kevin


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## hongi7480 (Jan 20, 2011)

They look great. I hope you enjoy them. Like all cichlids they will for sure be hours and hours of entertainment. Sorry if I was at all rude with my earlier posts. Good luck with them my friend.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

*Kanorin*

You're probably right. I'll keep posting pictoral updates from time to time. I do have to move them again though... right now they're in my intended fry tank. They're going to be moved to a 40br, along with part 2 of my project - 6 red zebra juvies out of which I hope to get a couple females only as well.

*ridley25*
you know when I first joined the site and was researching which fish to stock my original 55g with, I searched the profiles for hours trying to identify what the cool looking white/black/yellow striped mbuna was and I never found it because the default picture in the auratus profile is the ugly male . I asked about them and I too have been scared off because of the horror stories. Part of me hopes the horror story is more urban legend and that these guys can be kept like any other mbuna in a proper ratio, but we'll see. I'm still too chicken to try to add in an auratus breeding group to my 125 out of fear the male will kill off the entire tank, but I'll start with some females and observe how the youngsters interact in the smaller tanks while they're growing up and maturing.

*hongi7480*
It's cool I'm not upset. Thanks for wishing me luck and stop back in here for time to time for picture updates and we can talk about our different experiences with them. Sorry if I was rude back I didn't intend to be just wanted to be clear that my position is well I'm more or less a skeptic in life in general but I'm willing to consider any possibility objectively and scientifically. Your first post didn't say anything about proven females later going on to spawn as a male with another female which is why I thought you were confused but like I said I'll be amazed if I get a female to do that in fact I'm kind of hoping it does happen maybe even I can be the one to document it and get published!


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## JimNY (Dec 11, 2010)

I have 4 females, simply b/c none of the lfs here have any males or only young juvies which are common in every lfs, petsmart, and or petco I go to, only mbuna I know of thats always available in juvie or very young stage. Mine are the most agressive species in my mbuna tank over kenyi, ps. elogates likoma, and labeo twavaese. However they are still great, add excitement to the tank, and color, their agression is mainly towards each other, fin bitting and circling mostly, the only thing I dislike is when mu pseudo's try to do a mating dance usually 1 auratas will break them up. I recently saw a young male at a petsmart here, dark black w/grayish stripe, I will probably get this weekend, that should give my girls something to do when my pseudo's go at it.


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## busykt (Feb 18, 2011)

nice


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Part 2:










































Part 2 is getting a couple female red zebras as well. I traded in my albino zebras for them, er, well, part of the cost of them... :roll: . I got 6 of them, and for some reason I can't figure out, one of them dropped dead within a few hours of being in the tank :? . It didn't look beat up or sick, didn't have a sunken belly. 1 of the surviving 5 does have a sunken belly though hope its just underfed, and all the RZ's gills look very red - not sure if thats normal or not at 2". Anyways, this isn't the type of thing I expect from this particular LFS, they're highly praised for the best quality stock in the area, but I suppose I've bought ~50 fish from them over the last 15 months so to have only 1 drop dead basically on arrival is doing ok... Just a little urked because I got **** for credit on the 5 fish trade in and ended up flushing most of it down the toilet last night literally. At the store where I got the auratus, I only traded in 3 fish and got full credit for the 6 auratus, and none of them died.

Oh, 1 last thing. Are egg spots a good indicator of sex with RZ's? 3 of them have a ton of egg spots, and 2 of them only have 1 or 2. I'm afraid right from the start I don't like my odds of getting females from the group. Best I could tell from venting the one I flushed it looked like a male, both vents were the same size. Pretty small though, 2" or less.


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## Nina_b (Jan 3, 2011)

They look nice with the auratus, the stripes and the solid egg yellow is quite attractive.

I know it's not going to stay like this, just thought I'd say


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Nina_b said:


> They look nice with the auratus, the stripes and the solid egg yellow is quite attractive.
> 
> I know it's not going to stay like this, just thought I'd say


thanks they do look nice together. The RZ look a lot more orange in person than in the photos. No more deaths in the tank so I think all is well. The RZ with the sunken tummy is looking healthy just after a few days so I attribute it to being underfed. Still no idea why I had the 1 death.

Still wondering about any info regarding RZ's and egg spots - 3 of them have a ton of egg spots even spreading onto the back edge of the dorsal fin, I assume those 3 are probably males, unless anyone else has heard of females showing that many egg spots.

The other 2 well 1 has 2 egg spots and the other 3, which probably means they're more likely to be female but doesn't rule them out as male either. I suppose I'll have wait for holding to be sure (I haven't yet verified I can accurately vent just yet), just wondering if anyone with experience with this species can offer any insight?


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## Myrock (Mar 7, 2010)

The dark grey striped maybe another Mel. Species. Auratus was my original cichlid and still top 5 fave Mbuna. Pound for pound the best fighter. Also my first spawn ever. I had a 75 gal. back then and bought 3. To my surprise 2 turned brown. That started a 3 year war till one finally took over and killed the other. They would fight till they ran out of breath and sit next to each other till they caught there breath. Then start again. lol. The female Zebras can have spots, just not as many.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yes red gills always alarmed me on the RZs as well, it's normal. If they are at all mature you can shine a flashlight on the fins...males will have a blue sheen and females will not. And of course when mature the males will turn peach colored, they don't stay the red-orange of the females.


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## justinf67 (Jul 19, 2009)

DJRansome said:


> Yes red gills always alarmed me on the RZs as well, it's normal. If they are at all mature you can shine a flashlight on the fins...males will have a blue sheen and females will not. And of course when mature the males will turn peach colored, they don't stay the red-orange of the females.


I agree to an extent. The blue sheen is the giveaway... BUT, it can take till 3-4 inches before it shows up on some...the peach thing is not always true, since some have been bred to hold more orange(cherry reds) My male rz is brighter than the females, lol... Sadly, its one of the harder species to sex until they get pretty big...


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## bmweiler09 (Nov 17, 2009)

> Sadly, its one of the harder species to sex until they get pretty big...


I agree with that, I've had my RZs for almost a year and there's only one that I'm pretty positive on the sex (male). Lighter color, obvious blue tinted fins, and pronounced egg spots on an extended dorsal. Also it doesn't help that their all equally aggressive :wink:


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

So I've been keeping an eye on the red zebras for the last couple weeks. Unfortunately I can't find a flashlight with good batteries in it , but I can cleary see the blue sheen on the dorsal fin of one of the red zebras with just the tank lighting. Its only just became clear in the last week or so. Its also the one that is a little larger, and clearly dominant over the other RZ's. So, thats one male then for sure? Still not sure on the others probably won't be for a while yet, but I was wondering since I'm only planning on keeping females if I should rehome this known male now to be able to more quickly identify the next male? Or is there a chance it could still be a female?

The auratus I'm even more clueless about. None of them are even showing any egg spots. They're still a little smaller than the RZ's though, but clearly more feisty. They chase each other around in circles. It is innocent chasing for now and fun to watch. I know it won't last. Haven't seen any sign of a male turning black. Anyone have an idea on what size I should expect that to happen?


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

We were breeding m. auratus for a bit and found that all females have yellow on the bottom half of their tail fin, any black and most likely a male. Not saying this is conclusive but from our experience this was the case. We have had girls dress up in guys colors so YMMV but boys have black on the lower half of their tail fin.

We keep zebras, both red and blue males, the blue sheen on the red ones are a dead give away. The girls are more terratorial and reelentless than the males. The males guard a cave but the girls will defend a certain section of the tank.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

So, its been about 4 or 5 months since I started this project.

Out of the 12 fish I started with, 2 have died - the 1 red zebra right away, and 1 auratus a couple months ago. Of the 5 RZ and 5 auratus remaining, so far I have had 1 confirmed female, a red zebra, hold eggs. I separated her while she was holding about a month or so ago. She swallowed the eggs, and I kept her separated until I could add her to my 125 with 5 young juvie labs I've grown from fry I stripped. I added the 6 of them to my 125 this past sunday. The female red zebra seems to be doing fine. The 5 juvie yellow labs look like food compared to the adult mbuna, but a few days in and they're still alive and well. Should probably take a pic and post it, huh 

As for the rest of the auratus and RZ, they're still in the 40br. There is 1 clear male RZ who is distinctly peach. Another I suspect to be male, and 2 that still look bright orange and have a chance at being female. None of the auratus have started taking on male coloration yet. None of them have held. I doubt I have 5 females. I'll keep waiting them out until I get one to hold eggs. Kinda surprised it hasn't happened by now.


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