# Demasoni DIE OFF



## FishFishBoy (Feb 4, 2009)

Hi,

I started with about 20 demasoni ranging from 3/4" to almost 2" head to toe. This is in a 100g 5foot tank with some labs, acei, and a synod multi.

Every couple days or so, or sometimes three, another demasoni dies. All the others, including the other demasonis seem lively and totally healthy.

My water parameters are normal now, but i did have an accidental ammonia spike a couple weeks prior which board members warned would lead to future health problems.

I guess the problems are here. Unfortunately I cant see anything wrong with the dying fish, no spots, perhaps just a little pale, lethargic, and finally swimming sideways, on the surface, etc. By the time I can see these unusual signs they are already too far gone. Up till then I cant tell the difference between a demasoni hanging out in their rock crevice snug as a bug, and a demasoni about to take the final journey.

only the demasoni are dying. should i just wait this out and let the whole species die out, or will the other species go next? not sure what to do. the demasoni are from two sources, one LFS and one online retailer and I cant tell which are dying, it actually seems like both but my memory is not good enough to be sure.

thanks for any suggestions!

FFB


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## SonnyBunz (Jul 27, 2008)

Never had Dem's so I don't know much about them but if I'm correct they are quite aggressive. Chances are they are slowly picking each other off.


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## FishFishBoy (Feb 4, 2009)

i forgot to say that i really doubt that it is due to aggression. i dont see much any aggression, and the dying fish have no bites taken out of them, no wounds or anything, and this is in a well stocked tank, starting with about 20 dems and lots of other fish to crash into. i have seen a 1-2 second chase now and then but it is just too easy to get away in my tank and it cannot last.

while i have never seen any significant aggression, there definitely was an ammonia spike and people warned there would be trouble later.

FFB


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## gjmccag (Oct 29, 2008)

What are you feeding them/the other fish in the tank?

What number are you curently at with the dems?

How long have you had them?


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## Ladiesman (Dec 14, 2008)

What are you feeding your fish?

Waterchanges weekly?


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## FishFishBoy (Feb 4, 2009)

i feed them a vegetarian cichlid mix and also a spirulina cichlid mix. these do contain some fish protein but I have not found any food that doesnt include that.

i have about 12 dems left. 4 died in the ammonia spike (the only cichlids to die in the spike), and 4 have died after about 2-3 weeks later. Only Dems have been affected. It is possible that only dems bought online have died, but not sure. I do know from markings etc. that at least some of the LFS fish are among the survivors though, that's for sure. I have had the LFS dems for about six weeks and the online ones about 4 weeks. I also got acei in the same online order and they are vigorous and doing well, like the other species.

It seemed board members here were fairly certain I would have health problems in the future, after I told them about the ammonia spike, so I was wondering what exactly they might have been so certain about and what can be done about that.

My 100g is filtered with a fluval 405 and an fx5 and I do water changes regularly and the water seems fine.

FFB


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## Shorty89 (Nov 1, 2008)

...You are not the only one with the demasoni problem. 
My boyfriend and I both had a few in our larger mixed malawi tanks and they all died off. So he figured mayb he didnt have enough, because they suggest to have around a dozen or so. So he went out and bought about 15 and put them in a 20 gallon he had laying around. He had that set up for a while.. None died. They were all doing well, we had lots of spawning. Plenty of ones beaten up a bit though, regardless of the hiding he provided. After a while... we kind of figured we needed to downsize, We have a lot of tanks between the two of us. So we figured, since we were having so much luck with the demasonis, we would throw them in his mixed malwai 75g.. we even got more rocks so there would be ample hiding. It has been mayb 3 months now and he is down to about 6. Nothing seems wrong with them. One day they are fine, the next they are belly up. The aggression amongst the demasoni have even died down because of all the other fish and hiding. And we havent witnessed any other fish picking on them in particular.

My best advice, if you want demasoni... go get a 20 or 30 long , since they dont need much room, and have them all together with no other fish. That is the only scenario where we have been able to keep them.


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## Jason S (Feb 7, 2003)

The last two times I've kept a group of these, once the numbers got below 20 or so the group withered with periodic loses of one or two. The aggression doesn't have to cause physical damage for one to go downhill; just the stress of constant chasing can compromise the health. I suspect part of the problem with these guys is having a large number males -with the females being nearly equal size and color it's hard to be certain when you have a big group- where the dominant males pound the subordinates whom in turn pound the females; with really high numbers only the most dominant males can claim a territory and the aggression is spread among all the non-territory holding subordinates; so it works. Once the balance is tipped.....elimination starts. The females are also aggressive with one another in this species which compounds the problem.

I've kept them once as a group of 9 with 2 males and 7 females and it worked; likely because I was certain of the numbers of males and there was a dominant male Labeotropheus trewavasae in the aquarium that didn't allow the males to really challenge one another or the females. Also had success keeping them with more dominant Tropheus sp. "ikola"; two male Tropheus were more dominant and seemed to keep the demasoni from eliminating one another -it also worked to keep the Tropheus from really getting at each other as well since they were busy monitoring the whereabouts of some of the 18 or so demasoni.

The yellow Labidochromis and acei are not territorial enough to provide a challenge for the demasoni and it's unlikely you'll begin to lose them. If you keep experiencing losses I'd consider either trying to bump up the numbers again and removing some of the extra males [careful observation or venting are the only ways to determine which ones are males and then you have to catch them in a 5-foot tank!; though spotting and removing the largest most dominant is ususally possible] or pull the group for trade and start again with something small and similar in color [for the males] like Ps. saulosi which aren't nearly as rough on each other or perhaps try something larger like Ps. sp. "blue dolphin" which are very similar in color and a bit nicer on one another but are likely harder to source than demasoni.


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## Jason S (Feb 7, 2003)

oops


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## FishFishBoy (Feb 4, 2009)

so you dont think the ammonia spike has anything to do with it, despite the fact that several demasoni died in the ammonia spike? And I dont observe much aggression or stress? In fact there is way more action among the labs. the acei are practically schooling though so they are definitely unstressed, but the labs are pretty active with eachother while the dems are not.

FFB


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## Jason S (Feb 7, 2003)

I can see where a water quality shock could lead to losses of one species versus another. I've found the Labidochromis relatively tolerant of questionable water quality and the demasoni much less tolerant, so losses resulting from an acute level of ammonia a couple weeks ago is possible though I'd expect the losses to be confined to the first 3-4 weeks after the event. You'll have to continue to watch them now the numbers are reduced such that aggression doesn't became the primary factor of elimination.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

FishFishBoy said:


> so you dont think the ammonia spike has anything to do with it, despite the fact that several demasoni died in the ammonia spike?


How high did the ammonia go?

How quickly did you remedy the situation? HOW did you remedy the situation?

I would not rule that out as being the stressor behind the problems you are dealing with right now. That's not to say that you are dealing with stress instead of illness, though. It may be stress induced illness.

How big are the demasoni now? (2 inch will probably be close to or reaching sexual maturity, not so much with the smaller ones. I've had holding females at 1 inch, though.)

Should you have several males reaching sexual maturity at once, this can be problematic as far as aggression goes.

Any white stringy feces? Reclusive behaviour? Spitting or refusing food?

My first thought was that this is a very small group of demasoni for a 5 foot tank. I would have started out with at least 30. But when you mentioned the ammonia spike, that threw things off a bit.

How many acei and yellow labs do you have in the tank?

What are the exact current water parameters?

What is your normal tank maintenance routine?


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## FishFishBoy (Feb 4, 2009)

I have 13 labs, 11 acei, 1 synod multi, and I forgot to say 6 clown loaches. the loaches have no sign of ich. all the fish are 2" or less.

demasoni are down to about 11-12 and I have no way to quickly re-stock, unless someone knows somewhere i can drive near sacramento ca. i do worry now about aggression but so far I am not seeing it.

the dems range from 3/4" to almost 2", differing sizes for sure

my spike lasted several days with ammonia levels at first reaching the limit of my api test kit, which is 8 i think. I did 80% water changes every couple hours and prime for a one day, then twice daily and lower percentages as time went on until by about a week there was no ammonia at all. I had quite a few days with levels of 2-4 with max prime in the water (no false positives). My ammonia and nitrites are zero and nitrates are about 10. I do weekly water changes of about 20%.

sometimes i can observe reclusive behavior in a fish before it dies, othertimes the behaviour was probably there but i didnt catch it. one problem is the dems seem to like to camp out in their little nooks normally, but a sick one will find a little corner somewhere, often on the bottom, and hang out there not moving. when it is on its way to the beyond, it will not stir if you tap the side of the tank, and then often it will go to the surface for its last moments, gills gulping.

this gulping is not observable beforehand, and there are no other signs of sickness that I can see.

FFB


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I really think this may be aggression related. Anytime you have a fish sideways at the top of the water column, aggression probably put him/her there.

But those ammonia levels were really, really high, so that is clouding the issue somewhat.

You don't really have any definitive symptoms to treat at this point.

I would observe the tank very closely for further signs of a health issue. I'm hesitant to advise you to add more, even if you did have some available, until we completely rule out illness.

Watch them especially at feeding time to make sure everyone is eating.


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## FishFishBoy (Feb 4, 2009)

OK so, what should I do about aggression? I am watching the tank carefully and think I found one that is more aggressive than others. It is going to be hard to catch him. He takes a few swipes at others, and also at acei. They are just split second affairs, but the fact that he is not limited to conspecific makes me want to blame him. I also noticed a long circling chase of a lab chasing a dem.

I think what clouds the issue for me is that only dems died in the ammonia spike. But if I take that out, then I have to agree it is aggression. What should I do?

FFB


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Realistically, you don't have alot of choices right now. Your numbers with the demasoni are getting down too low, especially for the tank size. And, you can't get anymore at this time.

You can try removing the one and watch the tank carefully to see what happens. But I would keep him on hand in case you need to put him back in. Anytime you add or remove a fish you are going to change the dynamics of a tank - for good or bad.


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