# Pair-only tank



## Jai'galaar (Mar 28, 2021)

I'm planning on building a new cichlid tank and it turned out that the biggest one I have enough room for is a (in cm) 110x50x60 tank. It would be great to have it as a pair-only tank but I can't really decide what would be a safe option here. I know most of the mean guys are out of question. What I want is something bigger and tougher than a convict that still can live happily in a tank like that without some very serious family feuds. 
I've done some research but most of the species I like turns out to be be unkeepable (is there even a word like that? :-? ) in that tank size. Any suggestions? 
(Please don't say that I should get a 125 :lol: I literally don't have enough space for that.)


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Hmmmm... a 'pair only' tank? By this, I'm guessing you mean for a Compatible, M/F pair of New World Cichlids (preferably CA) right?
Because setting up a tank with two individuals of different New World species, is a definite possibility as well (that would be easier to pull off successfully, than a M/F pair actually).
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Plus, your aquarium is an interesting, odd size. But, I believe it could be workable for a few stocking ideas... 8)


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## Jai'galaar (Mar 28, 2021)

Auballagh said:


> Hmmmm... a 'pair only' tank? By this, I'm guessing you mean for a Compatible, M/F pair of New World Cichlids (preferably CA) right?
> Because setting up a tank with two individuals of different New World species, is a definite possibility as well (that would be easier to pull off successfully, than a M/F pair actually).
> -
> Plus, your aquarium is an interesting, odd size. But, I believe it could be workable for a few stocking ideas... 8)


 Yeah I'd like to go for a M/F pair. I've been looking for information on some forums but I got a bit confused when several guys stated that a 7-8'' cichlid requires a 100g all for itself and even that way the tank is almost overstocked. :-? 
So I really dunno. It would be cool to have a species in a pair-only tank that is not too much compatible with my desired less-aggressive community in the other tank but it looks pretty risky.
And yes, the tank is not a usual one but I can't get a longer one unless I start to demolish the wall to have enough space for it :lol:


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Alrighty then... last one I guess, before 'the launch'.
Are you okay with any South American recommendations? Or, does this new tank you're looking to set up have to be Central American Cichlid species only? 
I'm standing by, and have got a few species recommendations lined up for you. (Move out and draw some fire?!!) 
Hah! It will be interesting to see what sort of input & response my M/F pairing proposals to you draw.
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Whew.... this place has got a tough crowd here at times. :lol: - :roll:


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## Jai'galaar (Mar 28, 2021)

I'm fine with SA as long as it's some tougher and/or meaner species. I'm not interested in geops and such.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Hmmmm, this is interesting....


Jai'galaar said:


> I'm fine with SA as long as it's some tougher and/or meaner species.


Gamble much?
'Cause with that 'tougher - meaner' sensibility, comes a greater risk in successfully keeping a compatible pair of those kinds of Cichlids. And unfortunately, a lack of 'success' in this case with pugnacious New World Cichlids - almost always means the death of the female.  
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So, I'll give you some species recommendations you can try and stock as a pair in that odd-shaped (84 gallon?) aquarium of yours, along with an additional estimate of what I believe your chance of long-term success with the pairing arrangement will be. 95 percent is as high as I'm prepared to go (there is ALWAYS some risk in keeping a pair of New World Cichlids together in the same aquarium).
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- Central American -
NOTE: With some notable exceptions... CA Cichlids are generally just meaner to each other and stronger than their SA counterparts. More challenging!
- _Amatitlania_ (all): 95%. I'm partial to A. sajica (T-Bar), as the males of this species MAY get just a bit larger growing than others in the genus. 
- _Thoricthys_ (all): 95%. T. ellioti takes it for me currently - the breeding coloration is pretty outrageous!
- _Herotilapia multispinosa_, Rainbow Cichlid: 95%+. Such peaceful, charming little Cichlids.... too mild?
- _Rocio octofasciatus_, Jack Dempsey: 80%. A just-passing grade in risk? (Eight-O & go!). I'm confident a compatible pair of JDs will be able to work this thing out long-term with each other....
- _Mayaheros uropthalmus_, Mayan Cichlid or False Red Terror: 75%. In the aquarium, males can supposedly get well over a foot long in his species. I've only personally seen an adult male that may have approached 10 inches in length.
- _Hericthys carpintis_, Pearl Scale or 'Blue Texas' Cichlid: 70%. Getting a bit risky here, and don't even think about trying a pair of larger-growing, MUCH meaner H. guttatus, the 'true' Texas Cichlid in that tank! 
- _Nandopsis tetracanthus_, Cuban Cichlid: 60%. Smaller than their larger-growing cousins N. haitiensis, this species can be a bit more pugnacious in the aquarium to each other than even the 'Black Nasty'. Males are very unpredictable, with mostly safe, reliable male behavior reported in compatible pairs. Unfortunately, truly psychopathic thug males in this species are sometimes reported. Whew.... these things are beautiful! Feeling lucky?
- Oh, and I'm NOT putting the Hypsophrys nicaraguensis or Trichromis salvini on this list, because you already have them!
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- South American - 
NOTE: My apologies to all of those S/A Cichlid species I may have missed in this list!
- _Mesonauta festivus_, Flag Cichlid: 95%+. A classic! This smaller-growing species is probably too calm and peaceful for you...
- _Heros_, (all): 95%, My personal favorite is the (rather stunning) Heros cf. efasciatus 'Rotkeil'. 
- _Andinoacara pulcher_, Blue Acara: 90%. Recommend getting the non-hybridized 'standard' model. Males of the EBA have proven to be a bit less predictable in aggression.
- _Andinoacara latifrons_, 'Tourquoise Acara: 90%. Same as the Blue Acara - just rarer/harder to find.
- _Aequidens diadema_, Diadem Cichlid: 85%. Males of this pretty calm species can approach 8 - 9 inches in adult length. And, since they pulled Green Terrors out of this genus, Diadems might be the most aggressive species in the Aequidens genus.
- _Crenicichla, menesezi, geayi or britskii_ (Mid-sized pikes): 80%. Managing conspecific aggression is actually the biggest problem in Pike species. Those recommendations are the so-called 'calm' pikes. Do not attempt the larger, pike species in your smaller tank! 
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Whew.... that's a pretty good list! I'm sure you'll be able to find something you like (at the risk level you're comfortable with) on those CA and SA lists for that aquarium. And, if I've missed anything promising - hopefully someone can contribute additional species.
Plus - if anyone believes I'm Waaaaayyy off-base in any of those recommendations? C'mon, bring your input in to the thread and discuss!


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## Jai'galaar (Mar 28, 2021)

Meanness is not necessarily a factor here, but I like the predator-like CA guys the most which are mostly mean


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## Jai'galaar (Mar 28, 2021)

Auballagh said:


> Hmmmm, this is interesting....
> 
> 
> Jai'galaar said:
> ...


Wow I've never thought about the urophthalmus, I thought it's too big. 
Actually my ultimate dream would be a pair of RTM or yellow jacket but I guess it would be a **** terrible idea. I like the predatory looking cichlids better than the others.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Your love of the 'Predatory Look' informs those choices pretty strongly. And... we've now got some non-starters on the list!
Remaining contenders could include,
- _Mayheros uropthalmus_, Mayan or False Red terror Cichlid. Anyone whose had the opportunity to fish for those things in Florida can attest to how eager they are to hit lures and bait in the water. And yes, that admittedly geriatric old, aquarium-kept male I saw, was probably just barely past 9 inches in length. And that was the biggest one of these I've seen yet. Not saying that there may be some 'monsters' of this species out there over a foot in actual length.... I just haven't seen or heard of one yet.
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- _Nandopsis tetracanthus_. This one may be just a case of a real opportunist, who just won't pass up a chance at a decent meal. Or, like the _Hericthys guttatus_, Texas Cichlid shows itself to be in the wild... they are just plain MEAN, and don't like much of anything swimming through their defended territory!  
But yes, Cuban cichlids are definitely known to be quite piscivorous.
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- _Crenicichla&#8230;_. Well, all of this type are definitely the most predatory/piscivorous cichlids on this list. Captive-bred specimens will eat just about anything (including your massive amounts of grown-out Mbuna or Convict fry....). The species I put on the list are considered 'generalist' types that will not need soft/acidic water conditions to thrive in the aquarium for you (like some Pike Cichlid species will).
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*GUAPOTE's*. Well now, _Parachromis_ and pretty much any of the other powerful, mean & burly Cichlids of this type, have absolutely no business being kept as a pair in an aquarium this small. But yes, an individually-kept Cichlid of the smaller type Guapote' (around a foot in adult length) would work great. Your personal experience with 'Captain Creech' the male _Trichromis salvini_, (Mini-Guapote') informs well on what you can expect when stocking with an even larger, more powerful Cichlid to back up all of that aggression. From the smaller types such as _Parachromis friedrichsthalii_, (Yellowjacket Cichlid), on up to the 'Dreadnought', _Parachromis dovii_&#8230;. those Guapote' Boyz (and Grrrllzz) have got some serious attitude! And yes, in the wild - or the aquarium - they can most definitely back it up.


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## Jai'galaar (Mar 28, 2021)

I think I will go for either the JD or the Mayan. It's a **** hard choice tbh because I've been adoring both species since I started getting into cichlid keeping. Also, none of them can be found in... any of my country's LFSs  
Do we know how mean the Mayan male usually is towards his female? I know they're pretty boisterous towrds other fish.


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## Jai'galaar (Mar 28, 2021)

I've just seen something that has mixed up my thoughts a bit and that thing is the sieve cichlid aka Chiapaheros grammodes. As I've heard they're also called mini dovii - are they also that mean? I've done a little research about them and some guys said that they've had absolutely no problem with them, one of them even had a pair in a 75 for years. Others say that this species has the same problem as the dovii, the female starts pecking the male and eventually gets herself killed. 
Any thoughts on this fish? It looks pretty tempting but has a dangerously mixed reputation.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Whew, _Chiapaheros grammodes_, (Sieve Cichlid)....
Honestly that one is a bit of an enigma. I've seen that they readily adapt to conditions in a larger tank when kept with larger, sometimes even more pugnacious tank mates. But, lets NOT mistake this Cichlid for something it isn't. C. grammodes is most definitely a _GUAPOTE'_, with all the drama and action that keeping those powerful beasts entails. 
And well, beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder it seems, with this species. The males have some seriously large, powerful-looking heads. Hence the nickname 'Mini Dovii' , I guess... :roll: 
C. grammodes will tend to grow out a bit on the small side for a Guapote', as well. Similar, if not even a bit smaller in adult size than _P. friedrichsthalii_ will get. But no worries, all of that attitude will definitely still be there.
So, I'm gonna grade out C. grammodes at 65 percent: that's definitely risky, but is just a tick less risk than attempting a pair of Cuban Cichlids would be for your smaller tank. 
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And yes, if you have had a 'thing' for wanting to attempt a pair of _Mayheros uropthalmus_? I would definitely grade that species out as quite a bit less pugnacious to each other long-term than just about any sized Guapote' pair will be in your smaller-sized tank. Individual personality traits always make things unpredictable in keeping Cichlids, however. And, as they say, 
_"YOUR OWN MILEAGE MAY VARY...."_
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Things you can do that may help when you are pushing the limits a bit in aggression and size in keeping Cichlids like this, is to first ensure you have the strongest pair bond possible. Starting out the 'tried and true' way with a little school of baby fish and letting the pair sort each other out is still the best way to get things started.
Another thing that will work when keeping the pair alone in a tank together, is to place their aquarium next to a community tank with other fish in it. The male esp. will often spend his time flaring and displaying against the glass that way - instead of attacking the female.
And as always, provide places for the smaller female to escape to if the male starts playing too rough. Little things like that are sometimes all it takes to keep things (somewhat) stable in keeping New World Cichlid pairs, long term.


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## Jai'galaar (Mar 28, 2021)

Actually I was thinking about keeping some dithers with the urops when they're still young but I guess it wouldn't be a long term solution. 
And yes I know that introducing two adult fish to each other is not the brightest idea... I've even had problems with convicts that way. That's why I'm a bit worried about Captain Creech btw cuz if I want to get him a female, it should be an adult one. Divider usage coming right up...


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## Jai'galaar (Mar 28, 2021)

Auballagh said:


> Whew, _Chiapaheros grammodes_, (Sieve Cichlid)....
> Honestly that one is a bit of an enigma. I've seen that they readily adapt to conditions in a larger tank when kept with larger, sometimes even more pugnacious tank mates. But, lets NOT mistake this Cichlid for something it isn't. C. grammodes is most definitely a _GUAPOTE'_, with all the drama and action that keeping those powerful beasts entails.
> And well, beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder it seems, with this species. The males have some seriously large, powerful-looking heads. Hence the nickname 'Mini Dovii' , I guess... :roll:
> C. grammodes will tend to grow out a bit on the small side for a Guapote', as well. Similar, if not even a bit smaller in adult size than _P. friedrichsthalii_ will get. But no worries, all of that attitude will definitely still be there.
> ...


It may sound stupid, but... what exactly that "quite a bit" means? :-? Sorry but my English is not the brightest ever... 
It's kinda interesting that almost no one speaks about how aggressive the Mayans are to each other because it seems that nobody tried to keep them in pairs.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

No worries! _"QUITE A BIT"_, just means that I believe you are more likely to have success in keeping a pair of Mayan Cichlids in your tank, than with a pair of Guapote' type Cichlids.
And yes, initially stocking this tank with bigger, pretty fast dither fish should benefit your pair a lot, by keeping the male occupied in defending and chasing those other fish in the tank. Giant Danios, large growing Tetras or Silver Dollars will work in that role for a while. Eventually though, as your (predatory) Cichlids get larger in that tank - the little school of dither fish will almost certainly get smaller.... :? 
Here's a pic of an adult Mayan cichlid caught with a rod & reel in Florida,










This species can be a problem, as they are considered a invasive fish that is crowding out native fish species in Florida. The size of the pictured fish, is about what to expect for adult size in this species.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Got to say a few things about the Mayan cichlid (_Mayaheros urophthalmus_). First purchased this fish around 1976-77. It was not common in the trade at that time and all I had was a black and white picture in the ACA BunterBarche bulletin and a drawing and description in the "big blue fish book"' to identify it. As a kid, I spent some time counting anal and dorsal spines to identify it with certainty, though its barring pattern, tail spot, head profile and snout are very specific to this species.
I owned 2 females over a span of about 15 years combined. Both exceeded 10" and were measured after they had died. Over the years, I have seen males that were much bigger then any females I have ever owned or seen, though I couldn't say specifically how long they were.....guessing 12" or so and much heavier and bigger then a female. Since they are feral in Florida and many people catch them fishing, it's not hard to find pictures of large specimens on line. Example in this link where some of the Mayans look almost as big as the peacock bass :lol: (though they are being held up into the camera):https://thebbz.com/content/2019/12/5/the-dr-does-the-urban-slam-in-broward-county-south-florida 
IMO, the cichlid-forum profile listing size of 12" would be pretty accurate. 
As far as temperament they are typical of large CA. My female Mayans were definitely more aggressive then any Texas cichlid females I have ever had. C'ant say they were as aggressive as some midas/RD females I have had though it is not really a fair comparison as I have had female RD/midas as boss of tanks, and position in the pecking order and particular situation can play the major part in how aggressive a fish may be. I have also found over the years, that old large female CA tend to act quite similar to males and be very aggressive when they are 'top dog' or even just high up in the pecking order. Anyways,on fish forums, it's definitely a fish with a worse reputation for aggression then the Texas cichlid. 
Understand, over the long term, you are likely faced with the same compatibility issues that you get with any of the large CA. They are very territorial fish. They come together for a single spawning and after they protect their fry to a certain stage, "it's good bye and get lost." Outside of a community situation with out real external threats, don't expect that the male will tolerate the female. Likely you will have to use a divider between spawns with a close eye, and/or a divider where the female can escape through a hole that the male does not fit and hope she actually utilizes it.
In around 1980-81 my brother crossed female Mayan with male Jack Dempsey. Just a few months later I crossed female Mayan with male Texas cichlid. So like most CA, these fish are fairly inclined to crossbreed. I did not grow any of these crosses out much past 1 1/2" or so as they all had really high rates of deformity. Odd shaped heads. I went many years thinking that CA crosses typically produce a lot of deformity. Its only since coming to fish internet forums in 2007 and seeing just about every possible CA cross out there and now realizing it is not really the norm at all. Anyways, like most CA, they are about as easy to spawn as the convict cichlid. Getting a spawn or 2 likely won't be a challenge......but long term compatibility may not be so easy or simple.


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## Jai'galaar (Mar 28, 2021)

BC in SK said:


> Got to say a few things about the Mayan cichlid (_Mayaheros urophthalmus_). First purchased this fish around 1976-77. It was not common in the trade at that time and all I had was a black and white picture in the ACA BunterBarche bulletin and a drawing and description in the "big blue fish book"' to identify it. As a kid, I spent some time counting anal and dorsal spines to identify it with certainty, though its barring pattern, tail spot, head profile and snout are very specific to this species.
> I owned 2 females over a span of about 15 years combined. Both exceeded 10" and were measured after they had died. Over the years, I have seen males that were much bigger then any females I have ever owned or seen, though I couldn't say specifically how long they were.....guessing 12" or so and much heavier and bigger then a female. Since they are feral in Florida and many people catch them fishing, it's not hard to find pictures of large specimens on line. Example in this link where some of the Mayans look almost as big as the peacock bass :lol: (though they are being held up into the camera):https://thebbz.com/content/2019/12/5/the-dr-does-the-urban-slam-in-broward-county-south-florida
> IMO, the cichlid-forum profile listing size of 12" would be pretty accurate.
> As far as temperament they are typical of large CA. My female Mayans were definitely more aggressive then any Texas cichlid females I have ever had. C'ant say they were as aggressive as some midas/RD females I have had though it is not really a fair comparison as I have had female RD/midas as boss of tanks, and position in the pecking order and particular situation can play the major part in how aggressive a fish may be. I have also found over the years, that old large female CA tend to act quite similar to males and be very aggressive when they are 'top dog' or even just high up in the pecking order. Anyways,on fish forums, it's definitely a fish with a worse reputation for aggression then the Texas cichlid.
> ...


Now it starts to get complicated...  
What do you recommend then? :-? Please don't say that no CA can be kept in pairs... it seems to be the truth now, I've heard that about just about all the species passing 6''.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

BC in SK said:


> Understand, over the long term, you are likely faced with the same compatibility issues that you get with any of the large CA. They are very territorial fish. They come together for a single spawning and after they protect their fry to a certain stage, "it's good bye and get lost." Outside of a community situation with out real external threats, don't expect that the male will tolerate the female. Likely you will have to use a divider between spawns with a close eye, and/or a divider where the female can escape through a hole that the male does not fit and hope she actually utilizes it.


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+1 to BC in SK - that's definitely it! And, your remarks so eloquently explain all of it when it comes down to keeping so-called, 'compatible' pairs of these Cichlids. They're challenging!
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And, ultimately there are no absolutes in this. No absolute decisions. No absolute risk. And, just because I have been successful in keeping a certain species of pugnacious, mean Ciichlid? Definitely should NOT completely inform the experience that someone else may have in keeping the same, exact species. With the same size aquarium - everything! I mean one of the reasons people love these large, powerful (predatory?) Central American Cichlids - is just how unpredictable their ultimate behavior in the aquarium can be. Really! One keeper's Total Gentleman, could be turn out to be a real Wife Beater in another tank. 
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So yes. With experience can be found some general personality traits, that can and do help to inform how to keep these fish. Nice keeping tips, that provide helpful info. But it does help to remember.... your Cichlids get a vote in this also. :wink:


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