# migrated from 40g to 90g - upgrade in place...cloudy?



## shootinfool73 (Apr 25, 2017)

Hi all...
I am brand new to this forum -- have received a lot of good information from the members here over time so thanks for everything . I have been hooked on cichlids for a year and never looking back!!! 8) I'm not brand new to the hobby -- almost 2 yrs -- but so I am certainly not a veteran either, obviously... I am having a cloudy water issue I would have thought was rudimentary tank mini-cycling/bacterial bloom at first but I am not sure this time as its a mixed issue...and figured no one would be able to give insight with this better than dedicated cichlid keepers.

So I had what eventually became an overstocked 40g african malawi tank...with 16 cichlids and 2 bristlenose plecos. The largest are a bumblebee, venustus, red zebra, and a red shoulder peacock all at about the 4.5-6" range (the bumblebee is 6"+ for sure). The rest are around the 4"+ now. 
That *same livestock level is now in a new 90g tank*:
1. I had a fluval 406 running the 40g, and I carried that over to the new 90g to seed for "instant cycling". 
2. I also have a new fluval fx4 on the 90g as well with all new media. 
3. Mostly new water, overtreated with Prime, and added Stability as bacteria supplement, but I also carried over about 25-30g from the old tank
4. New substrate -- CaribSea Arag-Alive (intended for saltwater, but well washed first anyway since bacteria cant live in fresh)

The new tank is now 1.5 weeks old.. so it's not established, but has the old filter media running. There are lots of particulates in the water, and a milky haze typical of a bacterial bloom. One filter is on each side of the tank, I have both filters running with the jets pointing up and to the left for an even current on top and surface movement, and the other fx4 jet downward and to the front. No other powerheads yet. With all that filtration (about 1000 gph by the filter ratings, so I'd say 700+ gph in reality) I expected visible particles to be gone. As for the haze... the parameters are ammonia = 0, nitrites appear to be .1-.3 (hard to tell the color), and nitrates = 10. Looks like its in a minicycle, so adding extra prime daily.

I have 3 main questions:
1. I didnt want to upgrade in place, but I had to... so what might have gone wrong with the "instant cycling"?
2. If anyone has used aragonite or arag-alive, do i need more water changes to eventually clear any more of that out of the water column?
3. particulates -- i have poly-fil quilt batting floss in both filters, and actually just cleaned and replaced the floss in the 406 this weekend. I used to just use the white/blue floss batting rolls. Any difference, or do I have too much current or improperly directed current?

Any and all suggestions are VERY MUCH appreciated...thanks in advance!!!!!!


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

My guess is you are seeing dust/fall out from the aragonite. Don't know what might be in it, as it is a SW product. Many of us use pool filter sand which is available at pool supply places and some home improvement stores. requires little rinsing, and is cheap to boot!

Why use aragonite Alive in a cichlid tank?


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## shootinfool73 (Apr 25, 2017)

nodima said:


> My guess is you are seeing dust/fall out from the aragonite. Don't know what might be in it, as it is a SW product. Many of us use pool filter sand which is available at pool supply places and some home improvement stores. requires little rinsing, and is cheap to boot!
> 
> Why use aragonite Alive in a cichlid tank?


Actually I must admit this time I kind of regret taking my lfs advice. They used to be a FW and SW shop but he is all SW now. I usually go to another lfs these days..but i got my new stand from him and bought substrate while I was there. I was looking to get caribsea African cichlid sand (black/white) or aragonite..And he recommended this because of the larger grain size. Said the bacteria would do no good in a FW tank but otherwise would be the best substrate. In my old tank I had an artificial sand substrate...Just not specific for Africans. 
I love the black larger grain look but I don't know...i rinsed it out a lot but maybe not enough.

I'm inclined to do some water changes but I don't want too much of that to impact any mini cycling and overall water parameters... So I'm torn...


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Welcome to C-F!!

I agree that it may be from the Arag-Alive substrate but it also could be a bit of a bacterial bloom despite doing everything correctly. Water changes may help the cloudiness if it's related to the substrate and won't hurt the cycling process.

Eventually the Poly-fil should collect more of the particles, assuming it isn't the sand that is being stirred up. If you have a power filter, often called a HOB filter that hangs on the back of the tank, consider also adding it with Poly-fil to help clear the water. If you don't have one, I wouldn't buy it unless you were already planning on it.

What brand & type test kit are you using?


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## shootinfool73 (Apr 25, 2017)

deeda1 said:


> Welcome to C-F!!
> 
> I agree that it may be from the Arag-Alive substrate but it also could be a bit of a bacterial bloom despite doing everything correctly. Water changes may help the cloudiness if it's related to the substrate and won't hurt the cycling process.
> 
> ...


Thanks..Yes I have several HOBs...still have dual AC70s running my 50g tank and an ac50 on a 10g tank. I have an extra ac70 with a bad motor sitting on the side. In fact I just moved to canisters in the last few months because of popular recommendation. I have an ac110 I pulled from my 40g....But...Since I decided to go all canisters with this new 90g tank I didn't leave room between the tank and the wall for it. I could set one up temporarily on the front or side for a day or two. Once I feel my fx4 is established I could replace some of the bio in my 406 with more floss so it can be more of a mechanical filter...Or maybe I should do that with my fx4 since the trays aren't that big anyway.

I have a combination of tests...I have a nutrafin kit...Plus an ammonia test from API and a nitrate test from red Sea.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

The reason I asked about the type and brand of test kit is due to your numerical result of the nitrite test, usually I see whole numbers rather than a fractional number. I've never used the Nutrafin brand kit so don't know how to read the test results.

I would set up the spare AC110 on the front of the tank, including the sponge if you have it and with Poly-fil on top to help catch particles. I also recommend using Saran wrap or similar to cover any openings on either side of the filter to deter jumping fish.

I'm a fan of using my canister filters as directed by the mfg. to have both mechanical and bio-media though I do tend to like a bit more mechanical media. The only issue with using floss or Poly-fil is that it tends to plug up faster if you have a lot of it so keep an eye on the filter output to gauge when it needs cleaning.


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## shootinfool73 (Apr 25, 2017)

deeda1 said:


> The reason I asked about the type and brand of test kit is due to your numerical result of the nitrite test, usually I see whole numbers rather than a fractional number. I've never used the Nutrafin brand kit so don't know how to read the test results.
> 
> I would set up the spare AC110 on the front of the tank, including the sponge if you have it and with Poly-fil on top to help catch particles. I also recommend using Saran wrap or similar to cover any openings on either side of the filter to deter jumping fish.
> 
> I'm a fan of using my canister filters as directed by the mfg. to have both mechanical and bio-media though I do tend to like a bit more mechanical media. The only issue with using floss or Poly-fil is that it tends to plug up faster if you have a lot of it so keep an eye on the filter output to gauge when it needs cleaning.


I only have one nitrite test -- the nutrafin -- and the measurements are in tenths (of a ppm I assume)... like 0-.8 I believe is the range.

Well oddly enough I re-tested today - its mid-week since my last water change and almost a week since I last tested. Ammonia is still 0...nitrite now appears to be between 0 and .1, and nitrates differ with my 2 tests. The Red sea test makes it look like its between 25-50 (but it cant be near 50)...yet my nutrafin kit shows it between 5-10. Red Sea was supposed to be for FW or SW but most all of their stuff is made for SW, so I have always wondered if the color chart is not really 100% accurate for me. My nutrafin test has 2 color charts to compare for FW or SW, and API's kits also have separate charts for each. The only reason I got the separate nitrate test was to try it out -- the Red Sea was considered a high-end test, and the process seemed easier and more accurate than the others that all require violent shaking of the 3rd component to mix... lol

The visible particles seem to go back and forth between feedings... seems to all depend on how much the fish churn up the substrate. I may take your advice on the temp ac110 this weekend. The water still has a cloudy haze to it, but the test numbers LOOK good now, so I still wonder if the cloudiness is due in part to substrate dust that doesnt have visible particulates as you mentioned, or if its still residual bacterial bloom, etc. I had a 9w UV filter on my 40g... was thinking by doubling the water volume and filtration I wouldnt need that again.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Sounds like better vacuuming is in order...the fish should not be able to churn up particles when whizzing around during a feeding frenzy.


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## shootinfool73 (Apr 25, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> Sounds like better vacuuming is in order...the fish should not be able to churn up particles when whizzing around during a feeding frenzy.


I definitely agree...I didn't deal with that in my 40g with the old sand substrate (which was actually just a sand substrate from PetSmart...National geographic branded). Pretty much only a little fresh poop right on top might be temporarily spun up but then settled right after...Not much stayed floating around the water column.

Just new to me with this new setup and this larger grained aragonite substrate I'm not familiar with.

I'm going to do a mid week water change and vacuum tonight...See if that helps.


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## punman (Oct 24, 2003)

How much over treated with Prime were you? I do not use prime but the stuff I use to remove chlorine - if I overdose too much, the water goes cloudy.


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## shootinfool73 (Apr 25, 2017)

punman said:


> How much over treated with Prime were you? I do not use prime but the stuff I use to remove chlorine - if I overdose too much, the water goes cloudy.


You know I never thought of that because I never attributed cloudiness with prime use. I did put a lot because the water I had them in holding during the setup was treated along with bacterial supplement. That was maybe 25%+ of the 90 gallons.. Then I double treated the new tank water since it was fresh and I feared a mini cycle would happen anyway. Prime also helps neutralize the affects of ammonia and nitrite temporarily.

1 capful or 5ml treats 50g...And I have never added less than one capful when water changing all my tanks...40g 50g and even a 10g. Never heard of it causing that problem or noticing that being the problem before...But maybe....


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## syackoski (Apr 29, 2017)

Prime won't cloud the water. I used Caribsea aragonite for a new cichlid tank a few months ago and it took a week to become clear. I tried adding a fluval 406 loaded with carbon pads and foam and it didn't matter. Good news it's not harmful to fish. Now doing gravel cleanings will kick up some cloudiness but it settles down in an hour ago. Not sure of the saltwater version.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Another alternative is pool filter sand where there is absolutely no cloud from day one and nothing is kicked up from the substrate ongoing unless it's new debris from the fish or any plants.


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## shootinfool73 (Apr 25, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> Another alternative is pool filter sand where there is absolutely no cloud from day one and nothing is kicked up from the substrate ongoing unless it's new debris from the fish or any plants.


Yeah I wanted to go black substrate and was considering using the same type I had already but wanted to go with one intended for African cichlid water parms and a larger grain if possible to reduce chances of it ending up in my impellars... My LFS recommended I use this and forget the live part...but I think the live bacteria even though I rinsed is making the new tank syndrome even worse. 
My LFS thinks I should try putting my UV filter back on to help clear that up. It's only a 9w...but it's on now and u did a good water change and vacuum today so we'll see.


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## RaiseYoHands (May 9, 2017)

I set up a tank and used Cariblife Coraline aquarium gravel and had milky water for almost a week. I bought Coralife Pur-Flo filter pad (100 micron) and trimmed it to size and inserted it into my filter. Cleared my water up in a couple of hours.


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