# My fishless cycle journal.



## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

If the mods don't mind, I will post a daily journal of my ongoing fishless cycle. It might be interesting for other novices to this technique.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Started cycle on 11/5/11.

120 gallon tank.

Tank water temperature 82 degrees.
pH 8.0
kH/gH unknown (no test solution on hand).

5:00 p.m.

Added 8 ounces of Dr.Tim's ONE and ONLY Live Nitrifying Bacteria.

6:30 p.m.

Added 2 tsp. of ammonia purchased at Ace Hardware.

7:00 p.m.

Ammonia reading: 2.0 ppm


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

11/6/11

6:00 p.m.

ammonia reading between .50- 1.0 ppm.

Perhaps the Dr. Tim's One and Only actually works.

pH holding at 8.0.

kH/gH unknown (no test solution on hand, but has been ordered on line).


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

*11/7/11*

Ammonia reading zero or .25 at highest. (those color charts can he hard to read)

I forgot to check pH.

Added 2 tsp of ammonia.

After 30 minutes the ammonia was reading between 2-3 ppm. (did I mention how hard those color charts can be to read?)

*11/8/11*

Oh goodness!!!

pH off the chart.

Ammonia between 1 and 2 ppm.

I should have waited another 24 hours or more before adding more ammonia it seems.

kH/gH still unknown. Waiting for test solution that I ordered on line to arrive.

OK... Don't panic. I need to get the pH down a bit.

This is a new tank; set up only 4 days ago. Need to be patient and give it a couple more days to settle in perhaps when it comes to pH.

(Note to self... Check pH of tap water. Important to know when doing water changes in the future.)


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Comments and input from others is welcome BTW.

This is my first attempt at a fishless cycle.

:dancing:


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

Curious what would cause PH to change so much... what is the max on your test kit?


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## juststayinthecave (Dec 23, 2010)

I also have a hard time reading the ammonia chart. :? I'm going to get some bottled water and test it to gauge a zero reading.


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

May I commend you on starting your fish career off on the right foot, by doing a fishless cycle. 

I like to use Seachem's Ammonia Alert, it is a little color card that hangs in the tank to read ammonia if and when it should spike, kind of like a 'smoke alarm' for the fish tank, very good for the first cycle so you don't have to keep testing. Works for a year or more and costs the same as the ammonia test kit, a no brainer.

And what are we putting in this tank?

opcorn:

Keep us posted.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> OK... Don't panic. I need to get the pH down a bit.


Why? The only thing you want to make sure of is that pH doesn't drop too low during cycling. Don't mess with it otherwise.



> I should have waited another 24 hours or more before adding more ammonia it seems.


Agreed, don't push a lot of ammonia. You need to decide on a method and go with it. Dr Tim has one spelled out on his site, and then there's the one that I wrote up in the forum library. Pick one methodology and stick with it.

I might add since you're using Dr Tim's bacterial starter, follow his instructions and follow them to the letter. Many fishless cycling problems come from not having a plan or understanding of the processes that are going on. Read all you can on the nitrogen cycle, etc.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

skurj said:


> Curious what would cause PH to change so much... what is the max on your test kit?


The max on my test kit chart is 8.8


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

vann59 said:


> May I commend you on starting your fish career off on the right foot, by doing a fishless cycle.
> 
> I like to use Seachem's Ammonia Alert, it is a little color card that hangs in the tank to read ammonia if and when it should spike, kind of like a 'smoke alarm' for the fish tank, very good for the first cycle so you don't have to keep testing. Works for a year or more and costs the same as the ammonia test kit, a no brainer.
> 
> ...


I plan on putting Mbunas in the tank. Haven't made a final decision on exactly which ones yet.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

prov356 said:


> > OK... Don't panic. I need to get the pH down a bit.
> 
> 
> Why? The only thing you want to make sure of is that pH doesn't drop too low during cycling. Don't mess with it otherwise.
> ...


OK. I won't worry about the pH until the cycle is completed. Thanks for the heads up on Dr. Tims fishless cycle article. I was unaware that he had one on his site.

Since I did use the One and Only, I will be following the instructions he has in that article.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

vann59 said:


> May I commend you on starting your fish career off on the right foot, by doing a fishless cycle.
> 
> I like to use Seachem's Ammonia Alert, it is a little color card that hangs in the tank to read ammonia if and when it should spike, kind of like a 'smoke alarm' for the fish tank, very good for the first cycle so you don't have to keep testing. Works for a year or more and costs the same as the ammonia test kit, a no brainer.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the heads up on the Seachem's ammonia alert. I saw those at the store and wondered if they were worthwhile.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

*11/9/11*

Ammonia between 1-2 ppm

pH back down to about 8.0

I did nothing to adjust it. The only thing I can think of is that I may have miscounted the drops of test solution when I tested it yesterday.

Just for grins I tested for nitrite.

It's setting at about .25 ppm.

Will run the tests again tomorrow.

I forgot how much fun having a tank could be.

:fish:


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

Thanks for doing this Rich, thinking of trying the dr tim's thing on the next tank. I just need patience!


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

skurj said:


> Thanks for doing this Rich, thinking of trying the dr tim's thing on the next tank. I just need patience!


No problem.

The articles here and at Dr. Tim's website, describe the specifics of "how to", but I didn't see any detailed threads that covered the daily experiences of those that have tried the method.

As you can see I already learned from one mistake... I dosed the tank with more ammonia sooner than I should have. Even though it looked like it read zero before I added more.

I used to cycle my tanks the old fashion way...

Set up the tank, get the pH and temp where it needs to be, then put in a few inexpensive throw away fish to cycle the tank.

Add new fish as the tank cycle progressed.

The fishless cycle does take patience. But what I like about it, is that once completed I can fully stock the tank all at once.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

*11/10/11*

Ammonia at about 1.0 ppm

Nitrite between .25 - .50.

Will test again in two days.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I would've thought you'd have seen more progress after 5 days, but maybe this is typical. 7-10 days total time is what I'd be looking for. The fact that there are nitrites is a positive sign. Keep us posted.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

prov356 said:


> I would've thought you'd have seen more progress after 5 days, but maybe this is typical. 7-10 days total time is what I'd be looking for. The fact that there are nitrites is a positive sign. Keep us posted.


Don't forget prov that I have dosed the tank with ammonia twice already.

Once on 11/5 when I started the cycle and again on 11/7 when the ammonia level appeared to be reading 0.


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## Pizzle (May 24, 2011)

Just to confirm, are you using any seed material in your process such as filter pads or substrate from an established tank? If you can get your hands on some, it would get you through the cycle more quickly.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Pizzle said:


> Just to confirm, are you using any seed material in your process such as filter pads or substrate from an established tank? If you can get your hands on some, it would get you through the cycle more quickly.


No I am not using any seed material other than Dr. Tim's One and Only.


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## Pizzle (May 24, 2011)

Yeah, I noticed that you were using that. I am curious to see how well it works because to me this is some of the most interesting part of fish keeping. I have never tried it. I also curious to know if you can detect any Nitrate yet. Doesn't One and Only purport to contain both nitrifying bacteria that converts ammonia to nitrite and also bacteria that converts nitrite to nitrate?


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Pizzle said:


> Yeah, I noticed that you were using that. I am curious to see how well it works because to me this is some of the most interesting part of fish keeping. I have never tried it. I also curious to know if you can detect any Nitrate yet. Doesn't One and Only purport to contain both nitrifying bacteria that converts ammonia to nitrite and also bacteria that converts nitrite to nitrate?


It's too early for me to even test for Nitrates. It is my understanding that comes near the end of the cycle. I might test for it in a day or so just for grins.

One and Only is marketed as Nitrifying Bacteria.

One and Only did take my tank from 2.0 ppm ammonia to near zero in 48 hours. I think I may have delayed the process by adding a second dose of ammonia too soon.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Pizzle made me curious...

So I tested tonight.

Ammonia: between .50 and 1.0 ppm

Nitrite: between .50 and 1.0 ppm

Nitrate: Between 40 and 80 ppm. (color me shocked... not really as the nitrite present skews the reading).

I am using an API freshwater master test kit and it is not easy for me to "read" the color charts. But I have my dear sweet wife look at them too and she agrees with my "reading" of the charts.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Just as a reminder to those following this thread, I am NOW using the Dr. Tim's fishless cycle:

http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/fishless/fishless.html

FISHLESS CYCLING:
Day 1 - dose ammonia to 3 ppm
Days 5, 8, 11, 14 (every 3 days) - measure ammonia and nitrite
When both are gone add more ammonia to 3 ppm.
Now measure every 2 days - when both are gone add more ammonia
Now measure every day - when both are gone add more ammonia
Continue to measure every day - when both gone and you add more ammonia and both ammonia and nitrite are 0 in 24 hours you're done!
Do a partial water change and add some fish!

I am six days into the cycle. I do test every night rather than every 3 as suggested above, but that is so I can track daily results, which was the point of this thread.


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## Pizzle (May 24, 2011)

I think that One and Only contains more than one type of nitrifying bacteria. One type converts ammonia to nitrite and another type converts nitrite to nitrate. Your test results seem to confirm this.


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

Well I am going to go through the exact same process shortly. Pick up a new 55g tomorrow, and ordered dr tim's today as well. Likely be a couple of weeks before Dr tim's arrive but that leaves me lots of time to get the tank sorted. I really have no established media so this will be a start from scratch as well. Well i might be able to scrape up a handful of gravel but my only other tank has barely cycled itself.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I think I may have delayed the process by adding a second dose of ammonia too soon.


Don't overthink it. It's going fine. Ammonia dosing does not need to be precise. There are many methods that work. You didn't do anything to stop or inhibit the bacteria from multplying. You've obviously got both bacteria strains that you need working in your tank. Just stay the course.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Time for my daily update.

7 days into cycle....

pH 7.8

Ammonia .50 ppm

Nitrite 5.0 ppm.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

8 days into cycle:

Ammonia .25 - .50 ppm (probably a bit closer to the .50 ppm on the chart, so I'm going to call it .50 ppm)

Nitrite 5.0 ppm

Nitrate 80 ppm

Summary: Ammonia deceasing, Nitrite climbing as is Nitrate. I'd say the process is working along the expected time line.

I know that the fishless cycle test routine I am following doesn't mention testing for Nitrate at this stage (or any stage for that matter). I am measuring just to check overall progress of how the bacteria appears to be working/growing.

Over the next couple of days, I anticipate the Ammonia and Nitrite levels to drop. I expect to see an increase in Nitrate, *which from what I've read can only be reduced by a partial water change.* I don't plan on doing any water changes while the tank is cycling. I will merely add water as needed to cover evaporation loses.

Am I correct on bolded portion?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Keep in mind that the nitrate test isn't accurate with nitrite in the tank. Testing nitrate doesn't help determine cycling progress.

Also, if you're following Dr. Tim's method, he advocates partial water changes during cycling to keep nitrite down.

Yes, nitrates typically are dilluted via water changes.

Some of the readings you're getting aren't really typical. Once ammonia starts to drop, it usually 0's out really quickly. Yours has been doing a slow decline. Not typical at all. But, it may just be something with the product and the way it works.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

prov356 said:


> Keep in mind that the nitrate test isn't accurate with nitrite in the tank. Testing nitrate doesn't help determine cycling progress.
> 
> Also, if you're following Dr. Tim's method, he advocates partial water changes during cycling to keep nitrite down.
> 
> ...


I am keeping in mind that having nitrites will skew the nitrate reading. I have been measuring it out of pure curiosity.

Also Dr. Tim's method goes mention doing partial water changes during the cycle, if ammonia or nitrite exceed 5.0 ppm. I'm right on the edge with the nitrite. If it doesn't drop within the next day or so I will indeed do a partial water change to get the nitrite level down.

FISHLESS CYCLING:
Day 1 - dose ammonia to 3 ppm
Days 5, 8, 11, 14 (every 3 days) - measure ammonia and nitrite
When both are gone add more ammonia to 3 ppm.
Now measure every 2 days - when both are gone add more ammonia
Now measure every day - when both are gone add more ammonia
Continue to measure every day - when both gone and you add more ammonia and both ammonia and nitrite are 0 in 24 hours you're done!
Do a partial water change and add some fish!

TIPS & TROUBLESHOOTING:
IMPORTANT - Do not let the ammonia or nitrite concentration get above 5 ppm.
If either does get above 5 ppm do water changes to lower the concentration.

I thank you prov for following this thread and offering your input. I really do appreciate it.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

On second thought...

My nitrite has been reading right at 5.0 ppm for over 48 hours.

I'm going to do a partial water change (about 10%) tonight.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

*11/15/11*

Day 10 of cycle.

Ammonia 0 ppm.

Nitrite 5.0 ppm.

It is possible that the Nitrite is actually higher than 5.0 ppm. 5.0 is as high as my test kit reads. No change after the small water change last night.

I changed about another 10% tonight. Will retest for nitrites again tomorrow.

I will continue to do small daily water changes until the nitrite is reading below 5.0 then let the bacteria take care of the rest. (I hope).


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## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

I haven't used Dr.Tim's one and only,I think you will have to keep feeding the tank ammonia however


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

newforestrob said:


> I haven't used Dr.Tim's one and only,I think you will have to keep feeding the tank ammonia however


According to Dr. Tim's fishless cycle, I shouldn't add more ammonia until both ammonia and nitrite levels reach zero.

It is my understanding that the bacteria can survive nicely for 2-3 days without being "fed" with more ammonia.

I hope that Tim aka prov356 will chime in and correct me if I am wrong about that.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Your nitrite is probably higher than 5ppm, yes. You can dillute a test sample and find out your nitrite level. Mix it half and half with tap water, then double result.

The bacteria will do ok for a few days. What to do if nitrite hasn't dropped by then? I'm not sure because it's a different method than mine. Let's see what happens.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

prov356 said:


> Your nitrite is probably higher than 5ppm, yes. You can dillute a test sample and find out your nitrite level. Mix it half and half with tap water, then double result.
> 
> The bacteria will do ok for a few days. What to do if nitrite hasn't dropped by then? I'm not sure because it's a different method than mine. Let's see what happens.


I took your recommendation and took a diluted measurement. It was still reading 5 ppm, so my nitrite was still 10 ppm or possibly higher.

So I did another slightly larger water change (about 15%).

I forgot what fun manual (doing it with a bucket) water changes can be. I'm not as young as I used to be and those 5 gallon buckets get heavy. 

The only thing I can think to do at this point is continue to do small (10-15%) daily water changes to try to get the nitrite down far enough for the bacteria to deal with in a timely fashion.

As Tim says the bacteria should be fine for a few days, so hopefully it will continue to grow without additional ammonia while I'm trying to sort out this nitrite spike.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Or shift gears and just add ammonia every 2-3 days and ignore the nitrite and water changes. That's what I do, but just trying be fair to Dr. Tim's product and have you follow his method.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

I believe high nitrite can kill the benifitial bacteria that converts nitrite to nitrate.

I believe 5ppm is the max level you want it to be or it can stall the cycle.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Nodalizer said:


> I believe high nitrite can kill the benifitial bacteria that converts nitrite to nitrate.
> 
> I believe 5ppm is the max level you want it to be or it can stall the cycle.


According to Dr. Tim's article, nitrite or ammonia exceeding 5 ppm can inhibit the growth of the nitrifying bacteria.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Sounds like he knows what hes talking about then 

Glad my old memory still serves me correctly. Haven't done a full cycle in a lot of years hehe

doing one ATM thou, hence why I am checking how things are done these days hehe


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I believe high nitrite can kill the benifitial bacteria that converts nitrite to nitrate.
> 
> I believe 5ppm is the max level you want it to be or it can stall the cycle.


Ok, well I've fishless cycled many, many tanks, and have never paid attention to the nitrite levels or performed water changes during and they all cycled just fine. This is one point that Dr Tim and I disagree on.



> According to Dr. Tim's article, nitrite or ammonia exceeding 5 ppm can inhibit the growth of the nitrifying bacteria.


This is a more accurate statement than the one above. He has seen it inhibit the bacteria growth in his lab. My real world experience says not enough to matter or delay or prevent cycling.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

prov356 said:


> Or shift gears and just add ammonia every 2-3 days and ignore the nitrite and water changes. That's what I do, but just trying be fair to Dr. Tim's product and have you follow his method.


That is something that I am seriously considering if I don't see significant improvement in the next couple of days.

I had honestly expected to see better results with the One and Only. I might use the "contact us" feature on Dr. Tim's website present my results and see if they have any recommendations.

I believe I've read a thread here where one person posted that Dr. Tim actually sent them replacement product when the One and Only didn't seem to be working. I suppose it is possible that I got a bad batch from my LFS.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

You can also post to his forum here at CF. And yes I have seen where he's replaced product that didn't seem to be working.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

prov356 said:


> Ok, well I've fishless cycled many, many tanks, and have never paid attention to the nitrite levels or performed water changes during and they all cycled just fine. This is one point that Dr Tim and I disagree on.


You misunderstand, I never said it was stop it from cycling. Just stall it like an old car you gave too much fuel  It will normally start back up again.

My comment I am fairly sure was accurate, I could research it if I could be bothered, but nitrite does kill nitrite bacteria. Doesn't mean thou that it will kill it all off and the tank will never cycle. I have never read this Dr. Tims post on all this.. this is just what I have known myself.

But to each his own.. either way, if its got something to feed on the tank will cycle.


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## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

just curious,does the bottle have an expiration date on it,
who knows how long its been at the LFS?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> My comment I am fairly sure was accurate, I could research it if I could be bothered, but nitrite does kill nitrite bacteria. Doesn't mean thou that it will kill it all off and the tank will never cycle. I have never read this Dr. Tims post on all this.. this is just what I have known myself.


Nitrite may indeed inhibit nitrifying bacteria, I don't doubt Dr Tim or his research at all. My point is that IME it does not inhibit enough to stop or even stall cycling.

I know it's extra work to back up statements with links to studies. I often do it myself because unless I do I'm asking everyone to just trust and believe in something I 'know'. Why should they do that? This is the Internet where a 'reader beware' approach is always best. Myths and half truths abound. At times like this I'm just relaying my experience and stating plainly that that's all it is. If it's something I think I read somewhere, I state that also. I think it's important.

I searched high and low when I put together the fishless cycle article for CF for any studies at all regarding the effect of nitrite on nitrifying bacteria and couldn't find any. But, I did accept Dr Tim's research as well as the experience of others in taking an approach to fishless cycling that wasn't just my own. You'll notice that I suggest water changes to keep nitrites down in the article. I didn't want it to put forth my experience as the only valid one. Many methods work just fine. Keeping nitrites down will aid the bacteria, at the very least, by giving them less catching up to do. But, you offset that with the extra work of water changes, and you have to be careful not to go overboard with the amoounts as I and others have seen large water changes set back the nitrite converters. I also think it complicates the process a bit and may only shorten the total 4-6 week cycling time by a relatively short amount. So, the article says one thing, but personally, I don't do the water changes.


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## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

I think there are advantages of doing partial water changes,(after ammonia is converted in 24 hrs),you get a good feel of where your nitrites are, after and before dosing ammonia,it kind of takes the guess work out of the process because nitrites can soon be off the color charts when not doing PWCs, you might as well not even test for them,
at the end of the cycle after doing partial water changes,chances are your nitrates will be what would be considered by many as low,my last cycle they were just below 10 ppm,and no further water changes were required,
I think someone that is doing a fishless cycle for the first time would benefit doing PWCs to better understand the nitrogen cycle that they are seeing with their own test results :fish:


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

http://www.mrsaltwatertank.com/bacteria-in-a-bottle-snake-oil-or-worth-trusting/

He has the patent on a special type of bacteria in a home aquarium and the one to find it ?

Thats pretty huge, I might give this stuff a go and see for myself.


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## Pizzle (May 24, 2011)

prov356 said:


> Keep in mind that the nitrate test isn't accurate with nitrite in the tank. Testing nitrate doesn't help determine cycling progress.


Thanks for that information prov356. I remember reading that somewhere but I forgot.


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## CITADELGRAD87 (Mar 26, 2003)

newforestrob said:


> just curious,does the bottle have an expiration date on it,
> who knows how long its been at the LFS?


I found a place that carries it locally, it's in a littel refrig and it does indeed have a month and year stamped on the bottle.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

*11/17/11*

Day 12 of cycle.

Nitrite was still reading at least 5 ppm.

I did an approximate 40% water change.

I waited about 30 minutes and tested again.

It looked like nitrite was reading about 2.0 ppm. My wife said she thought it still looked like 5.0 ppm to her. (There is not a huge difference between 2.0 and 5.0 on the color chart in the test kit.)

So using Tim's earlier recommendation, I tested a diluted sample... 50/50 tap and tank.

My wife and I both agree that the diluted sample is reading at about 1.0 ppm. So... Double that and the nitrite appears to be about 2.0 ppm.

I would have expected a nitrite spike during the cycle if using ammonia only. I wasn't expecting one with the One and Only product.










Chart from Dr. Tim's fishless cycle article.

The interesting thing about that chart is that it shows ammonia additions at somewhat irregular intervals even though the actual ammonia reading are not down to zero.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Yeah, my results vary a bit. Note that he's showing a cycle with no nitrifying bacteria added. My ammonia levels, in that scenario, usually drop to 0 at about day 10. I used to add daily and after 24 hours, ammonia would again be 0. Nitrite would go off chart for 3-4 weeks, then plummet to 0, cycle done. Now I advocate only adding ammonia every 2-3 days so you don't drive nitrite and ultimately nitrate through the roof. Many methods will give the same end result. My advice is to settle on a simple method that you can understand and go with it.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

prov356 said:


> Yeah, my results vary a bit. Note that he's showing a cycle with no nitrifying bacteria added. My ammonia levels, in that scenario, usually drop to 0 at about day 10. I used to add daily and after 24 hours, ammonia would again be 0. Nitrite would go off chart for 3-4 weeks, then plummet to 0, cycle done. Now I advocate only adding ammonia every 2-3 days so you don't drive nitrite and ultimately nitrate through the roof. Many methods will give the same end result. My advice is to settle on a simple method that you can understand and go with it.


I presented my results and request feed back from Dr. Tim:

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... 20#1667220


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

Here is an interesting statement from Seachem about their biofilter additive product called 'Stability'

"The bacteria used in competing products are inherently unstable. The conditions necessary for their growth and development fall into a very narrow range of temperatures, pH, organic loads, etc. When any of these parameters are not strictly within the proper range, the bacterial culture quickly crashes and dies. StabilityÃ‚Â® does not contain any of the aforementioned bacteria.

The bacteria strains in StabilityÃ‚Â® have been in development for over a decade. The necessary conditions for growth of our bacterial strains encompass a very broad range. When other bacteria begin to die off (usually from high organic loads caused by the undetected death of an organism), StabilityÃ‚Â® simply works harder and grows faster! The strains function in fresh or saltwater. StabilityÃ‚Â® contains both nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria, a blend found in no other product. Additionally, StabilityÃ‚Â® contains facultative bacterial strains which are able to adapt to either aerobic or anaerobic conditions. The bacteria in StabilityÃ‚Â® are non-sulfur fixing, another innovation in the industry. Most other bacterial supplements will form toxic hydrogen sulfide under the proper conditions. StabilityÃ‚Â® will not, ever. "

This may account for why some people have more success with doing water changes on certain products, and others using another product or method, don't seem to have to do them. If the product works best within a certain range of water parameters then so be it.

I think Tim is right about getting a method that's proven and sticking to it. Although using established biomedia from another filter is probably the best and fastest method.

Recently a friend was setting up a new 40 G tank and wanted to borrow my media so I swapped an established biowheel from a penguin (one of two 350's so I was only a 25% donor) for the new biowheel from his new penguin 200 (which uses the same wheel), and he had no problems at all. I don't even think he checked the water, but he's not as careful as I am.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

The info about Stability includes a lot of marketing hype. You don't need anaerobic bacteria to cycle a tank. The info about forming toxic hydrogen sulfide is irrelevant to cycling also. Bottom line, does it work? But, this is classic Seachem. I really don't like that company. Can't blame them for trying to make a living, but they really push it when it comes to what they put on the bottle.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

*11/20/11*

I took a look back at my daily log and realized that it is has been quite a few days days since I fed the bacteria. I got caught up in worrying about the nitrite levels trying to follow Dr. Tim's method of waiting for the nitrite level to fall to zero before adding more ammonia.

I hope the bacteria haven't completely died off.

So here is my plan.

I'm going to perform a large water change (in part due to the water has become rather cloudy for some reason) and basically start over using prov's method.

I'm not going to do anything with the filters, so any bacteria that has survived will still be there plugging along.

Minor set back perhaps, but not one that I am worried about. I'm in no rush to add fish, as I still haven't decided exactly what I want to stock the tank with anyway.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

The bacteria will not have died off.

Cloudy water is most likely a bacterial bloom. I wouldn't be overly concerned about it.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Nodalizer said:


> The bacteria will not have died off.
> 
> Cloudy water is most likely a bacterial bloom. I wouldn't be overly concerned about it.


I've read that in an established tank that the bacteria can survive a couple of weeks without an ammonia source. But I haven't seen much about how long it can survive in a "cycling" tank.

If the bacteria has survived, it should reflect in a more rapid reduction in ammonia readings over the next few days should it not?

Bacterial bloom from what though?

Other than what might have been in the One and Only, there is no organic material in the tank.

Per Dr. Tim's article, fishless cycling with One and Only should not result in cloudy water like might be expected if using cut up shrimp as an ammonia source (as an example).


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

.........


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

*************************START OVER READINGS********************************

pH 7.8

Ammonia 2.0

Trace amounts of nitrite and nitrate.

If my bacteria has survived, I expect to see an ammonia reading of zero in a few days.

Time will tell.

I'm probably over thinking it.[/b]


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

The bacteria would have survived at some level, but it goes into like hibernation. So it might take longer, but I would guess it shouldn't do.

The bacteria bloom can come from just the normal cycling process, no matter what the organics in the water. I am by no means a bacterial expert, i just know they exist. And in my experience they sort themselves out.

http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/246850-bacterial-blooms-explained/

That artical might shed some light on the subject for you.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

> Contrary to popular belief, bacterial blooms cause an ammonia spike, not the other way around.


This is from that artical too, not sure on it myself, but it might be a reason for the ammonia spiking higher then you'd expected.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Excellent article.

Thanks so much for posting it.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

*11/21/11*

Ammonia reading between .50 - 1.0 (looks like the bacteria did indeed survive)


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I wouldn't get caught up in determining what caused the cloudy water. It really doesn't matter. Your bacteria survived and will be fine. Just stay the course and it'll work for you.



> Excellent article.
> 
> Thanks so much for posting it.


I'd be wary of any article that lists not a single reference to back up any of it's 'facts'.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Not everything needs a reference hehe

I knew what the cause was and went looking for an artical that had good content so rich_t could read up about it. So I guess I am the backup for the facts


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Nodalizer said:


> Not everything needs a reference hehe


For you, that may be true. I'm suggesting a different approach when considering what you find out there on the Internet. I've seen too many articles from hobbyists wanting to sound like experts presenting information that is dubious at best. That article is one of them. It's up to each to decide. If someone wants to believe posts on Internet forums without any supporting references, that's up to them and up to you as well. I know it's a painful and long process to find supporting references, but for me, it's the dividing line between which authors are reliable and which authors may not be.



> I knew what the cause was and went looking for an artical that had good content so rich_t could read up about it. So I guess I am the backup for the facts


You said yourself you're no expert in bacteria, yet you claim to be the backup for the facts? Razzing me doesn't help lend credence to your authority on the subject.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

prov356 said:


> I wouldn't get caught up in determining what caused the cloudy water. It really doesn't matter. Your bacteria survived and will be fine. Just stay the course and it'll work for you.


I'm not obsessed with find the cause of the cloudy water at this time, but matters to me because I don't like cloudy water and I want to make sure that the cloudiness isn't due to an underlying issue that might develop into a problem later. I'd much rather deal with it now than after I add fish.



> Excellent article.
> 
> Thanks so much for posting it.





> I'd be wary of any article that lists not a single reference to back up any of it's 'facts'.


I take very little that I find on the net at face value. But it is often a good starting point for additional research. Your warning is very appropriate.

Did you find anything in the linked article that appears to be inaccurate based on your personal experience/knowledge?


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

rich_t said:


> prov356 said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't get caught up in determining what caused the cloudy water. It really doesn't matter. Your bacteria survived and will be fine. Just stay the course and it'll work for you.
> ...


I take very little that I find on the net at face value. But it is often a good starting point for additional research. Your warning is very appropriate.[/quote]

You've got the right mindset, IMO :thumb: . And that applies to both your reasoning behind finding out what's causing you problems, and your caution towards taking internet/forum advice as gospel.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Keep in mind that this is my first attempt at a fishless cycle.

I used to do it the old fashioned way. Adding a few "throw away" fish and using them to cycle the tank.

I never experienced cloudy water due to possible bacteria bloom or any other reason during the cycling process.

So I am obviously a bit concerned to see cloudy water doing it fishless.

I'm just trying to do this as correctly as I can and I will post questions and concerns that develop during this process.

That was the entire intent with starting this thread in the first place.

I am well pleased with the input of others that have posted here.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

*11/22/11*

Test results:

Ammonia reading 0 ppm.

From 2.0 - 0 in 48 hours...

Now what?

Add more ammonia and begin checking for nitrite or add more ammonia and see if it goes from 2.0 - 0 in 24 hours?

Ya see... This is what I get from reading too may fishless cycling articles.


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

I'd check for everything every time ...

I think now yes you need ammonia in there but aim for 1ppm


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

skurj said:


> I'd check for everything every time ...
> 
> I think now yes you need ammonia in there but aim for 1ppm


Aim for 1 ppm based on what?

I already know that the bacteria is working, but isn't it the point to make sure that the tank can convert a lot of ammonia in a 24 hour period before adding fish? By a lot I mean 2-3 ppm.


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

My thoughts are this... if there is no ammonia there is no food source, there should be some at least for now. Have you measured nitrites? I just read through Dr Tims recommendations again and it looks like depending on you nitrite levels will determine whether ammonia is required or not.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

rich_t said:


> skurj said:
> 
> 
> > I'd check for everything every time ...
> ...


Make sure it can convert both ammonia and nitrite in 24 hours, not just ammonia.1-2 ppm is enough, you don't need to push more.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Did you find anything in the linked article that appears to be inaccurate based on your personal experience/knowledge?


There are some things I want to check out if I get the time. I'm on vacation at the beach at the moment. If what's in that article is all true, then I've learned some new things. If it turns out to be wrong, then I've learned some things by researching it. Learn to discern.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I'm not obsessed with find the cause of the cloudy water at this time, but matters to me because I don't like cloudy water and I want to make sure that the cloudiness isn't due to an underlying issue that might develop into a problem later. I'd much rather deal with it now than after I add fish.


Understood, I should have been more clear. The cloudy water is harmless and will clear. There are no underlying problems that you should try to resolve.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

OK.

Ammonia added.

2.0 ppm in tank.

I will wait 24 hours and test for ammonia and nitrite.

(here we go again)


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

prov356 said:


> Nodalizer said:
> 
> 
> > Not everything needs a reference hehe
> ...


ok


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

*11/23/11*

Ammonia 0 ppm - Excellent. From 2.0 to zero in 24 hours.

Nitrite off the chart.

Did 25-30 percent water change.

Nitrate still off the chart.

Will test for nitrite again in 24 hours. Will adjust amount of water change accordingly to get it below 5.0 ppm.

Will add ammonia per recommendation of article. At this point it seems that ammonia is being converted in 24 hours. After I add ammonia tomorrow, I will test it again on the 25th to confirm.

This might just end up being the longest fishless cycle in history. LOL


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Will test for nitrite again in 24 hours. Will adjust amount of water change accordingly to get it below 5.0 ppm.


I wouldn't. Don't change any more than 25%. You're just looking for nitrite to drop to 0. Don't worry about it's specific value. And don't base your water changes on the nitrite level. Think of it as either 0 or not, pass or fail, true or false, and ultimately cycled or not. That's all that matters in regards to nitrite.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

prov356 said:


> > Will test for nitrite again in 24 hours. Will adjust amount of water change accordingly to get it below 5.0 ppm.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't. Don't change any more than 25%. You're just looking for nitrite to drop to 0. Don't worry about it's specific value. And don't base your water changes on the nitrite level. Think of it as either 0 or not, pass or fail, true or false, and ultimately cycled or not. That's all that matters in regards to nitrite.


Thanks for the tip. I'll keep the water changes to 25-30% during the rest of the cycle. I just want to make sure that that the nitrite doesn't get so high that it inhibits the bacteria growth.

I am putting a lot of faith in your knowledge and first hand experience.

BTW... Your own article mentions 30 percent or so daily water changes (To me... 30% or so means at least 30%). Do you now recommend no more than 25%?

If so, you might want to update your article.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

You need to put the bacterial growth out of your head, prov356 does believe that problem exist, so doing his methos you do not take any of that into account.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Please...

Do not turn this into a pi$$ing contest.

It only detracts from the point of this entire thread.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

prov356 said:


> > Did you find anything in the linked article that appears to be inaccurate based on your personal experience/knowledge?
> 
> 
> There are some things I want to check out if I get the time. I'm on vacation at the beach at the moment. If what's in that article is all true, then I've learned some new things. If it turns out to be wrong, then I've learned some things by researching it. Learn to discern.


The linked article is not accurate unfortunately... Funnily enough, some members in e thread identified the holes but the author did not investigate the objections.

Heterotrophic bacteria is a very general term and can encompass so many species and so many states that those bacteria could be in. The auhtor talks about them as a single cohesive unit... Big mistake.

There are studies out there that have looked into how the heterotrophic species can be quite flexible...
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_ ... er=5163114

The article is a good one despite its innaccuracies though and i like it as i think it does describe the most common scenarios that new aquarists bump into. Tap water is dirty and it is often the organics in tap water that are the primary trigger of a bloom, not the ammonia we add or that the fish start to produce. This can easily be seen in some brand new tanks with no fish in them where the ammonia reads zero and will stay at zero during a bloom...


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

rich_t said:


> Please...
> 
> Do not turn this into a pi$$ing contest.
> 
> It only detracts from the point of this entire thread.


 :thumb:


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

rich_t said:


> Please...
> 
> Do not turn this into a pi$$ing contest.
> 
> It only detracts from the point of this entire thread.


Ummmmm, I wasn't. I was clarifying, prov356 would confirm what I said. People can have different views and yet still help people together. Comments like yours are more likely the cause of detracting threads.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Nodalizer said:


> rich_t said:
> 
> 
> > Please...
> ...


Pardon me, perhaps I misread your intent.

If so, I apologize.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Its all good, the internet is a pain that way. i was just trying to say and perhaps i said it wrong sorry.

The bacteria stall if high nitrites that we was discussing earlier needs to be forgotten now for you to follow prov356's way of doing this cycle properly.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Nodalizer said:


> Its all good, the internet is a pain that way. i was just trying to say and perhaps i said it wrong sorry.
> 
> The bacteria stall if high nitrites that we was discussing earlier needs to be forgotten now for you to follow prov356's way of doing this cycle properly.


Cheer's Mate.

I misread you.

No harm done.
:thumb:


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> BTW... Your own article mentions 30 percent or so daily water changes (To me... 30% or so means at least 30%). Do you now recommend no more than 25%?


Point is, don't change too much. 25-30% is fine.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

11/24/11

Nitrite off the chart.

Performed 25-30% water change and added ammonia to 2.0 ppm.

I won't be updating this daily at this point. I'll u[date it again once cycle appears to be finished or if I run into any issues.

Happy Thanksgiving to those that celebrate it.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Cycle appears to be finished.

Checked nitrite yesterday and it was reading about 2 ppm.

Performed 25-30% WC
I re-dosed tank with ammonia to 2.0 ppm.

Checked water parameters today:

Nitrite 0
Ammonia 0
Nitrate between 20 - 40.

Should I add more ammonia this evening and make sure that both ammonia and nitrite continue to convert to 0 after another 24 hours?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Should I add more ammonia this evening and make sure that both ammonia and nitrite continue to convert to 0 after another 24 hours?


Wouldn't hurt. Now it's the end game. You need to look at when you're going to be adding the fish and plan the last ammonia doses and water changes. Nitrates don't look too bad. Dose every 2-3 days with last dose about 48 hours before adding fish. Continue to do some small water changes.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Thanks Tim.

I will add more ammonia this evening, then if ammonia and nitrite convert to zero by tomorrow evening, I will order some fish to hopefully arrive by Saturday.

I will continue to do small water changes to get the nitrate to 20 ppm or below.

If I can get the Saturday delivery on the fish, my last ammonia addition will be on Thursday.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

well good to see it is comming to a close for you


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

rich_t said:


> Thanks Tim.
> 
> I will add more ammonia this evening, then if ammonia and nitrite convert to zero by tomorrow evening, I will order some fish to hopefully arrive by Saturday.
> 
> ...


Good plan, let us know how it goes.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Ok...

Looks like cycle may not be completely finished yet.

I dosed tank with ammonia last evening to 2 ppm.

I checked the water parameters this evening. The ammonia reads zero, but nitrite was reading between .50 and 1.0 ppm.

I think I'll let it cook for another day or so just to be on the safe side.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Yeah, I wouldn't consider it cycled until it processes both within 24. Doesn't mean you'd have problems, but best to be safe. It did convert it once within 24. Maybe slow down on the water changes and see if that helps. You can also cut the ammonia dose in half.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Thanks Tim.

I'll try that. I did do a 25% WC tonight out of habit. I probably should have waited another day.

Once the nitrite reaches zero again, I'll dose the tank to 1 ppm ammonia and see what happens.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Tank is cycled and fish on order.

**** micro-bloom is back though.

I HATE cloudy water.


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

Grats rich!

Well my cycle happened... The tim's stuff arrived too late I had already started, my nitrite zero's the morning of the day the fish were to arrive, so I cannot swear its completed, but today 2 days later ammo and nitrites are still zero. 2 weeks but with filter media.. granted all my fish are tiny I'll be watching closely. My last tank i was doing water changes every other day to keep the fishes safe, and one big difference is almost 5x the $$ in fishes in tank 2...


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