# Just when everything is going as planned.....



## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

I have been cycling my 125 gallon tank for 10 days now....
Ammonia dropped to zero 7 days into the cycle as planned....
Next day ( day 8 ) add ammonia...
Next day ( day 9 ) test for Nitrite - 2.0 ppm, perform 1st PWC
Next day ( day 10...today ) test for Nitrite - 0 ppm?? Nitrate - 10 ppm

I'm confused! I thought that Nitrite would take some time to drop, maybe even twice as long as the ammonia drop. Why has my Nitrite dropped to zero in a couple of days? Does this somehow mean my tank is now cycled?

What should my next step be?
Ph - 8.0
Kh - 4
Gh - 10
Am - 0
Nitrite - 0 ppm
Nitrate - 10 ppm


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Did you use any additives? My nitrite went much higher before dropping. I'd definitely wait at least 48 hours with zero readings.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

I put in Prime and Stability by Seachem when I initially setup the tank ten days ago, then last night I drained 30 gallons and added Prime for 125 gallons and let it stand in the tank with the filters off for 20 minutes then added water.
The only other thing added to the tank was ammonia. 250 drops initially which was too much at 4 ppm. Then added ammonia again after the drop (2 days ago) but only 125 drops this time for 1.5 ppm.

Should I do a PWC tonight then add more ammonia, or just bypass the PWC and add ammonia?


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Forgot to mention, I also put a Bio-bag and two small pouches of gravel into one of my filters from an established tank when I first setup the tank.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

Roger That said:


> Forgot to mention, I also put a Bio-bag and two small pouches of gravel into one of my filters from an established tank when I first setup the tank.


This is a pretty important detail . I would add more ammonia and retest in 24 hours. Don't do another PWC just yet. What kind of test kit are you using?

I did fishless cycle with some established media from another tank once and cycled in about 5 days IIRC. It is possible you're done.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

I have the API Freshwater kit and an API GH Master test kit. I will just add ammonia tonight and retest everything for the next 48 hours to confirm.

If it is cycled, do I need to buffer to raise my Kh and Ph? My tap water tests Ph at 8.2, Kh at 5. Over the past week the Ph dropped to 7.8 but Kh rose to 5. My GH is 11. Or should I just do a few PWC's over the weekend to raise the parameters?

I guess I need to get busy and order some fish soon!


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

That's a good test kit...assuming it's relatively new and not expired.

The need to buffer depends on what kind of fish you're planning to stock. In general it's best to avoid using additives IMO.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Mbuna....five species, thirty one fish total.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

You could use baking soda but personally, I wouldn't bother. If your fish are tank raised (as opposed to wild caught) they'll be fine.

My water has a pH of 7.7 out of the tap. I used baking soda and epsom salts to get the pH and kH up when I was keeping tropheus. One day I decided to stop and gradually reduced what I was adding till I wasn't adding any. The fish never seemed to notice.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

I have the Malawi Victoria Buffer and Cichlid Lake Salt from Seachem but I'll wait till I do a couple of PWC's this weekend and see what the readings are. I may just negate adding any buffers also if my Ph will stay relatively stable.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

zimmy said:


> My water has a pH of 7.7 out of the tap. I used *baking soda and epsom salts to get the pH and kH* up when I was keeping tropheus.


It's been a while since I paid close attention to water chemistry. I should have said kH and GH. Your kH is a bit on the low side but I still think regular water changes would ensure your pH stays steady.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Well.....
I added ammonia last night at 10:00 pm, tested today at 5:00 pm....
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - .5 ppm
Nitrate - between 20 ppm and 40 ppm ( it's difficult to distinguish between the two colors )

Am I getting a small Nitrite reading because I haven't waited 24 hours? Should I retest at 10:00 pm? I know I need to do a partial water change to get Nitrates down but should I wait until retest at 10:00 pm?

A little confused.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

Retest at 10:00pm. PWC are not needed during cycling unless your nitrites are really high.


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## Samadhikash (Jun 16, 2015)

+1 to what zimmy has been saying.

Just want to add...remain calm. 

It is a bummer when the love and care we have for our tanks & fish flips to crippling anxiety. Cycling a tank should not lead to post-traumatic stress disorder. Especially when doing a fishless cycle and the worst that can happen is you don't kill some fish. 

Stay the course. Monitor your parameters. And whatever you do, don't do anything drastic.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Lol, thanks guys. I actually found an explanation in the fishless cycle article on the library. The Nitrite hasn't yet had a full 24 hours to cycle to Nitrate. The Nitrate test actually converts any nitrate present to Nitrite so it can measure Nitrate. So if any Nitrite is still present it is added to the converted Nitrate therefore skewing the test results. I need to wait until the Nitrite reads zero before testing for Nitrate.

I'll test again at 10 pm and I'm pretty confident that I'll get zero Nitrites....and the Nitrate reading should also result a little lower. At what level of Nitrates should I get to before a PWC?


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

While I wait to retest.........

This afternoon I spoke with a gentleman about ordering my desired stock of Mbuna:
1 m, 7 f Labeotropheus Fuelleborni OB
1 m, 7 f Pseudotropheus Maingano
1 m, 4 f Labidochromis Caeruleus ( Yellow Lab )
1 m, 4 f Cynotilapia sp Hara ( White Top Hara )
1 m, 4 f Iodotropheus Sprengerae ( Rusty )

He suggested instead of so many females to males, that I put around 55 - 60 Mbuna in my 6' long tank with a lot more males. He did admit to being in business to sell fish, but that most go the overcrowding route with Mbuna to limit aggression. What are your thoughts about the pro's and con's of overcrowding vs a modest male to female ratio like I have above?


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

Roger That said:


> Lol, thanks guys. I actually found an explanation in the fishless cycle article on the library. The Nitrite hasn't yet had a full 24 hours to cycle to Nitrate. The Nitrate test actually converts any nitrate present to Nitrite so it can measure Nitrate. So if any Nitrite is still present it is added to the converted Nitrate therefore skewing the test results. I need to wait until the Nitrite reads zero before testing for Nitrate.
> 
> I'll test again at 10 pm and I'm pretty confident that I'll get zero Nitrites....and the Nitrate reading should also result a little lower. At what level of Nitrates should I get to before a PWC?


Once the tank is cycled (0 ppm on both ammonia and nitrite), you can do water changes to bring the nitrate down. +1 on your explanation above. It's pointless testing for nitrates till nitrites read 0.

When do you think you'll add your fish?


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

I called today, will call back tomorrow to order and should deliver by Tuesday. What are your thoughts on overcrowding?


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Well just as expected.....

Ammonia - 0 ppm
Nitrite - 0 ppm
Nitrate - 40 ppm (can anybody see any difference between 40 and 80 ppm on the API Freshwater Master Kit color chart?)

I know this is nitpicking but how do you guys compare your test tube sample against the color chart? For example...if I have the chart on a table and lay the test tube down on it's side, the Nitrate reading matches 20 ppm. If I stand the test tube up and look through the entire tube of liquid it matches 40 ppm...or 80. I can't tell any difference between the two.

I do believe she is cycled! I'll keep monitoring the water until the posse arrives....but I'll order them puppies tomorrow.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

It's tough to tell the difference between 40 and 80 but they both clearly look different than 20 to me. Less than 20 is what you want.

You could dose the tank again to keep the bacteria fed till the fish arrive. The tank can go a few days without feeding so maybe dose tomorrow for the last time and then do some PWCs before adding fish. I've done 50% water changes once the tank is newly cycled but it's probably safer to not go that big when the bacteria are still getting established. Obviously, don't mess with the filters for at least a couple of months.

Mbuna are supposed to be overcrowded to reduce aggression so you're probably better off doing that.

The tank looks great and congratulations on being cycled! :thumb:

Be sure to post pictures once the fish are in the tank.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

There is a proper level of overcrowding to manage aggression and there is a tank that looks like a goldfish feeder tank.

With your original plan aggression should be managed well. Most of the fish you chose have females just as colorful as males so you have nothing to lose.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

I'm going to do a 25% PWC tomorrow morning, retest tomorrow evening around 6 or 7 pm, do another 25% PWC and add a little more ammonia than yesterday (175 drops) to dose up to 2 ppm at least.

Sunday I'll test at 6 or 7 pm then do another PWC, Monday repeat....
Tuesday test and add fish.

DJ...I agree with what you are saying and with the stocking list we put together. I don't really care for the overcrowding idea or look personally. It reminds me of an elevator full of occupants leaving a forty story tall office building at 5:00 on Friday, lol. Not to mention the constant aggravation of trying to establish peace as well as the additional maintenance.

Could I, or should I, add a Sydontis to the mix to help control any fry? Oh...and what foods and feeding regimine should I use? Thanks to all of you for your help and experience!! This site is awesome!


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

The maintenance on keeping a more heavily stocked tank can definitely become a major chore.

Adding synodontis will add to your load and they're happier kept as a group of 4-6 than a single. Petricola are a bit smaller than mulitpunctatus.

NLS and North Fin pellets are the main foods I've used. I prefer North Fin because it's less messy in the water. With some fish it's beneficial to vary their diet a bit with some vegetables or frozen food. You probably don't need to do that with mbuna but it's interesting to watch their behaviour taking apart a piece of zucchini, for example. Vegetables can make a mess in the tank so a lot of fishkeepers don't feed them for that reason. It's a bit of trial and error to figure out how much to feed but a good guideline is no more than the fish can eat in about a minute (with pellets). I feed twice per day and occasionally skip a day.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I have been feeding all my tanks NLS Cichlid formula for 10 years and plan to continue. 1X daily and skip 1 or 2 days weekly.

I like the elevator example!

Agree on 5-7 Synodontis. Multipunctatus are best at fry control and have the interesting cuckoo behavior, but I like the look of Lucipinnis better. Lucipinnis is the new name for what was formerly called Dwarf Petricola. True Petricola are extremely hard to find...most fish sold as Petricola are Lucipinnis. The importers just keep using the old name.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

DJRansome said:


> I have been feeding all my tanks NLS Cichlid formula for 10 years and plan to continue. 1X daily and skip 1 or 2 days weekly.
> 
> I like the elevator example!
> 
> Agree on 5-7 Synodontis. Multipunctatus are best at fry control and have the interesting cuckoo behavior, but I like the look of Lucipinnis better. Lucipinnis is the new name for what was formerly called Dwarf Petricola. True Petricola are extremely hard to find...most fish sold as Petricola are Lucipinnis. The importers just keep using the old name.


So adding 5-7 Synodontis Multipunctatus would be fine? As you can see I have a ton of caves, cracks and crevices throughout my rock wall. Although difficult to see from the photos, there are also several tunnels that run along the bottom through the rocks that link a few of the lower level caves. The smaller fish are going to love it but any fry will be next to impossible to catch!


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Mmmm, Mmmm, Mmmm, Myyyy Mbuna!
They're on their way...

All 1-1/2" - 2":
1 m, 7 f Labeotropheus Fuelleborni OB
1 m, 7 f Pseudotropheus Maingano
1 m, 4 f Labidochromis Caeruleus ( Yellow Lab )
1 m, 4 f Cynotilapia sp Hara ( White Top Hara )
1 m, 4 f Iodotropheus Sprengerae ( Rusty )
5 Synodontis Multipunctatus

They're coming from Daytona and will be here on Tuesday. I'm going to add ammonia this afternoon which gives me 72 hours for 5 or 6 20% PWC's to get Nitrates down. The gentleman said he couldn't guarantee with certainty that all of them will be accurately sexed, but I didn't want to add 36 adult fish 3" or above only dosing to 2 ppm.

I'll post pics when they're all settled in...but I'll start a new thread in the Malawi forum section where it probably belongs. Thanks again so much to all, this site has given me enough confidence to take this endeavor on!


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Quick question....while performing a 20% PWC earlier today I noticed some algae buildup on a few rocks and on the front glass. I just finished cycling the tank and fish will be in Tuesday. Should I wait to clean it off the glass or is it ok to wipe it off with a magnetic pad?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would leave the glass and surfaces for a couple of weeks...there is some bacteria growing there.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

That's what I thought....thanks. I'm about to dose my tank with ammonia for the last time before adding fish 72 hours from now. Should I dose to 2 ppm or 3 ppm to increase the bio load?


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Added a Hydor 1500 gph power head today to increase flow down low behind the rock wall. Easy to hide behind the rocks and will put on my timer for a few hours a day. Helps flow through the rock wall to get all the waste out and into the filtration. That gives me 2425 gph without media....so should be at least 1500 gph actual flow at about 15x flow rate. 125 gallon tank with 120 lbs of substrate and 130 lbs of Lace rock should be around 100 gallons of water.

I'm running out of things to buy for my tank, lol. Don't tell my wife but.....you think I should maybe start up a 250 gallon hospital tank?


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Had a good flow in the tank with the FX6 and Fluval 406,
But now with the added Hydor 1500 gph power head....fantastic flow! I added some fake bamboo plants in the rear of the tank and there's one small leaf branch that is just floating around the tank on top in a clockwise pattern and has continued to do so for the past day. Great clockwise flow pattern, but I'll give the juvies a break and only run it for a few hours a day.


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