# DOH! cycling with a surfactant. Is this really a problem?



## psyber (Jan 7, 2009)

So, it turns out the jug of ammonia I have been using the past few days to cycle my tank is not pure ammonia . It's ingredients are ammonia and surfactant. So, what impact will this have and should I drain and start over with "pure" ammonia?


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## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

I would say start over. Surfactants mess with how the water and ammonia react to each other. I would only want the pure stuff. Surfactants are normally organic so it probably wouldnt hurt anything but it does effect how the water and ammonia react to each other. Everyone says go with the pure and there is probably good reason.


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## psyber (Jan 7, 2009)

GaFishMan1181 said:


> I would say start over. Surfactants mess with how the water and ammonia react to each other. I would only want the pure stuff. Surfactants are normally organic so it probably wouldnt hurt anything but it does effect how the water and ammonia react to each other. Everyone says go with the pure and there is probably good reason.


Yeah, that is what I was thinking too. My only real concern is what to do about the substrate (sand). Does it need to be rewashed? Also, what should I use to clean the tank? Something like Vinegar?


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## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

Its really hard to say. Before you do anything you may want to wait and see what some other people think. I wouldnt want to go through all the work you have done and come and find out that the stuff you used was ok.

THat being said i personally would take all the water out. Wash the sand either in the tank or take it out and wash it depending on how much is in there. And wipe the tank down and start over. However i am a little OCD and wouldnt want you to waste all that time unless it is necessary.


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## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

Also i probably should of used the words interact not react.


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## psyber (Jan 7, 2009)

GaFishMan1181 said:


> Its really hard to say. Before you do anything you may want to wait and see what some other people think. I wouldnt want to go through all the work you have done and come and find out that the stuff you used was ok.
> 
> THat being said i personally would take all the water out. Wash the sand either in the tank or take it out and wash it depending on how much is in there. And wipe the tank down and start over. However i am a little OCD and wouldnt want you to waste all that time unless it is necessary.


Yeah, I will probably wait a day or so and see what others say. Another question is what to do with the filter media? I have cartridges right now so I don't see how I could clean it well other than rinsing it.


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## overleaf (Jan 18, 2009)

A quick google search on "surfactants tank cycling" bring up a world of no good.

All fingers point to scrub everything down and pray it hasn't seaped into the silicon, gravel, etc... OR... replace everything to be sure - including tank, gravel, items, filters.

Sorry for the bad news


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## psyber (Jan 7, 2009)

overleaf said:


> A quick google search on "surfactants tank cycling" bring up a world of no good.
> 
> All fingers point to scrub everything down and pray it hasn't seaped into the silicon, gravel, etc... OR... replace everything to be sure - including tank, gravel, items, filters.
> 
> Sorry for the bad news


UGH yeah I see what you mean. Good thing I just started the while cycling thing. I have used at MOST 1/3 cup (probably closer to 1/4) of the stuff in a 50 gal tank so there should not be too much in there. I know I don't see any signs of bubbling or slime on top of water like others have mentioned. Even what the filter returns is bubble free. I will probably still drain and clean.

What do others think about this whole mess?


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## kfig7 (Nov 24, 2008)

I too did the same thing about a month ago. You will get a few different opinions about this as I found out by posting on various forums. It seems that 99.9% of the suggestions were to break down the tank and start over. Then there was the other 1% who swore that everything would be fine. For example there is ammonia you can buy at walmart that I think has a purple label and has surfactants in it. Many people have used this with no problems.

I guess there are 2 things you can do here. One of them is start over and clean everything thoroughly. The other is get some new ammonia that doesn't have surfactants in it and continue the fishless cycle. When the cycle is completed, try putting some cheaper fish in there such as zebra danios and if everything is ok with them, you should be fine.

What did I do? Well I did the whole zebra danio thing and everything turned out fine. Now this doesn't mean that it will turn out fine for you, unless of course you used the same ammonia I did. I used Stop and Shop Pure Power Clear Ammonia. Not sure if all of this really helps you or not but just thought I'd share what happened to me and what I did.


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## psyber (Jan 7, 2009)

kfig7 said:


> I too did the same thing about a month ago. You will get a few different opinions about this as I found out by posting on various forums. It seems that 99.9% of the suggestions were to break down the tank and start over. Then there was the other 1% who swore that everything would be fine. For example there is ammonia you can buy at walmart that I think has a purple label and has surfactants in it. Many people have used this with no problems.
> 
> I guess there are 2 things you can do here. One of them is start over and clean everything thoroughly. The other is get some new ammonia that doesn't have surfactants in it and continue the fishless cycle. When the cycle is completed, try putting some cheaper fish in there such as zebra danios and if everything is ok with them, you should be fine.
> 
> What did I do? Well I did the whole zebra danio thing and everything turned out fine. Now this doesn't mean that it will turn out fine for you, unless of course you used the same ammonia I did. I used Stop and Shop Pure Power Clear Ammonia. Not sure if all of this really helps you or not but just thought I'd share what happened to me and what I did.


Yes, that is helpful. Thanks. As I said, I will probably do the drain and clean but your post gives me hope that I don't need to toss any of my equipment; except maybe the filter cartridges. No way in **** am I gonna throw out the sand and spend another two days rewashing another 50 lbs. Instead I will just give it a good rinse.

Many of the posts I read last night mentioned people seeing what I guess are soap suds floating around their aquarium. Did you experience this?


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## psyber (Jan 7, 2009)

kfig7 said:


> used Stop and Shop Pure Power Clear Ammonia. Not sure if all of this really helps you or not but just thought I'd share what happened to me and what I did.


Is that the good ammonia you used or the stuff at walmart with the surfactants?


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## edouthirt (Jan 22, 2008)

another thing is I have stood ina wal mart and actually shook avery single bottle of ammonia they had (all listed surfractants as an ingredient)...

only three of them bubbled up.

I have heard that ammonia with surfractants will bubble up... so... maybe give your bottle the shake test.

Either way, I think I would start over with a "certified" pure ammonia... but if your bottle doesn't bubble up, you can at least feel better about not replacing the sand and tank, but merely washing them.


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## kfig7 (Nov 24, 2008)

The Stop and Shop brand was the bad ammonia.

And no, I didn't have any soap suds on top of the water.

Probably a good idea to start over. You should definitely be fine with the sand and filters if you just rinse them a little. Good Luck 

Oh and BTW, if you have an ACE hardware near you. They definitely have the right ammonia.


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## schaumie2222 (Oct 28, 2004)

is there a way to test if your water contains surfactants??


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## tankhead (Aug 8, 2008)

Sorry, but the ACE Hardware near me stocked Ammonia w/ surfactant.


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## kfig7 (Nov 24, 2008)

tankhead said:


> Sorry, but the ACE Hardware near me stocked Ammonia w/ surfactant.


Thats too bad! The one by me has both. Its amazing how hard it is to find 100% pure ammonia hydroxide.


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## psyber (Jan 7, 2009)

Just thought I would throwout and update. Earlier today I tore down the tank and scooped all the sand out. I went ahead and tossed the media cartridges as well. I figure I will have everything cleaned and put back together by Sunday night.

I picked up another bottle of ammonia today from Meijer. The only ingredients listed are Ammonia Hydroxide. However, when I shake the bottle it still fizzes up. Would this be safe to use? After this weeks adventure, I am leaning towards NO and just using a few barbs to cycle (since I will have some barbs w/ the cichlids anyway). What are your thoughts?


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## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

If the only ingredient is ammonia hydroxide then i would say go for it. That is the stuff you want.


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## edouthirt (Jan 22, 2008)

If it's just ammonia hydroxide it shouldn't fizz up... I would be weary.

I remember this being very annoying for me as well. I probably went to a dozen different places before I finally found it.

It's really a shame that pet sotres and local fish stores are not bigger proponents of the fishless cycle. It would make me very happy to go into a LFS and see pure ammonia stocked on their shelves. I understand that they would rather you spend $5 on a dozen danios (or whatever they cost... i really have no idea) then $.99 on a bottle of ammonia.

I plan to open a Fish Store when I retire (which I'm only 25 so we got a while), and I definitely plan to stock bottles of ammonia and urge everyone in the store to do a fishless cycle. Maybe with the bottle of ammonia, I will give them a 20% off coupon for when they return to get their livestock in a month... or perhaps by then bio-spira type products will be more popular and perfected and it won't even be an issue.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

There's a product available now in the UK from NT labs called 'Start OK'. It comes with not only the 
bacteria, but an ammonia source, and nitrite test kit. This is what I've been hoping makers of products
like bio-spira would provide. It's long overdue and hopefully products like this will be showing up in the
US soon.


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## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

prov356 said:


> There's a product available now in the UK from NT labs called 'Start OK'. It comes with not only the
> bacteria, but an ammonia source, and nitrite test kit. This is what I've been hoping makers of products
> like bio-spira would provide. It's long overdue and hopefully products like this will be showing up in the
> US soon.


Would this even work? Seems kind of like one step forward two steps back. WOuld you use it to cycle your tank or put the fish in right away with it. Seems like if you put the fish in it right away then the ammonia levels are going to be super high from the fish ammonia and the ammonia in 'start ok'. If you cycled the tank with it i guess that would work, but would the beneficial bacteria die or would it stay alive. Maybe i am just confused and looking at this the wrong way.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Comes with the bacteria food, so you don't add fish. Not sure what the bacteria food is, and how well 
the product works, but it got good reviews at PFK magazine. That's one of the things I love about that 
magazine, they're very strong proponents of fishless cycling. :thumb:


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## psyber (Jan 7, 2009)

AH HA.

I was at ACE today and found a bottle of their ammonia that is 10% ammonia hydroxide and does not foam up with shaking. I have read else where that the ACE hardware ammonia is safe stuff to use. Anyone else concur?


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## sleepy09 (Jan 15, 2009)

I also had a hard time finding ammonia without any additives in it. I finally found industrial strength ammonia at a pool supply place. I would not only start over because of the additives in the ammonia but because you added way to much to start with. I added 2 caps to my 125 gallon and it brought up my ammonia to 4ppm. I wouldn't think that you would need a .25 cup to get your tank up to that level. I could be wrong but that seemed to be to much.


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## psyber (Jan 7, 2009)

sleepy09 said:


> I also had a hard time finding ammonia without any additives in it. I finally found industrial strength ammonia at a pool supply place. I would not only start over because of the additives in the ammonia but because you added way to much to start with. I added 2 caps to my 125 gallon and it brought up my ammonia to 4ppm. I wouldn't think that you would need a .25 cup to get your tank up to that level. I could be wrong but that seemed to be to much.


Yeah, It did not take much at all to get my 50 to around 5 ppm. Maybe 3 table spoons at the most.


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## psyber (Jan 7, 2009)

Hello everyone. I have had fish in my tank for about 3 weeks now and so far so good. My initial stocking was 2 flame Gourami, 4 tiger barbs, 2 fire mouths, and a blue/black con. I did loose 1 fish, the con, but other than that everyone seems to be alive and well. I attribute the loss of my con to having to rush adding fish into a not quite cycled tank b/c I was leaving for a vacation and not having anyone to continue to add ammonia while I was gone. Additionally, the coloring of all the fish has improved greatly since I got them so I assume I am doing something right.

I assume that if there were still dangerous levels of surfactant none of the inhabitants would have survived this long. So, just in case anyone comes across this thread and wonders if there is life after surfactants the answer is yes. Just make sure to clean the tank well. However, it is important to remember that individual results will probably vary. I hope this thread will be helpful to others in the future.


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