# mixing tropheus for affects, not breeding purposes



## supafly (Dec 17, 2003)

So I am thinking of setting up a tank to house about 6 variants of trophs. 2m/2f of each type. On top of that, a few other rock dwellers. Tank will be a 150g with sand bottom and large boulders. My intention is to have a nice display tank featuring mostly tropheus and a few other tanganyikans to compliment colors and variety. Again breeding is not my intention but would be great if it happens. Here are some questions I have:

Would the tropheus display their breeding colors in this setup?
How much aggression should I anticipate between the groups and/or males?
Is 2m/2f a good ratio for this setup, what ratio will work the best?

Any experienced feedback would be great.


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 11, 2006)

I would do trios.


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## jetchanic (Jul 14, 2008)

eklikewhoa said:


> I would do trios.


I second that or if you want 4 of each then do 1m 3f


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## TitoTee (Feb 18, 2006)

What ever you do - do not let anyone tell you - that you should'nt do it. It's your money, your tank and your desire.

I say do it.


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

There will be aggression between all males to some degree or another. They will all fight for dominance of the tank. With a high female ratio, you will mostly see female colouration. With the rainbow types, you will see good colour. Not great, because its the boys who carry the best colour, but good. With sp red types, you will see less colour.

There will be breeding, but the fry will hold little value.


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## flashg (Oct 5, 2007)

TitoTee said:


> What ever you do - do not let anyone tell you - that you should'nt do it. It's your money, your tank and your desire.
> 
> I say do it.


 :lol: Don't do it! Not just for the hybrid factor, but I have seen a few people (troph noobs) do this and every time it ended up in mass deaths due to bloat!


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## TitoTee (Feb 18, 2006)

flashg said:


> TitoTee said:
> 
> 
> > What ever you do - do not let anyone tell you - that you should'nt do it. It's your money, your tank and your desire.
> ...


 :lol:

Is all I can say


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Never tried it in a 150g.
6 types (young 2" Trio of each recognized species) did not work well for me as a Troph noob in a 48"x15"x18" (Not surprisingly :wink: ) Ended up with just 1 Tropheus in the tank but it did take over 2 years to lose all the others.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

But there again that tank had other errors too. Not enough filtration and too many rocks.


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## supafly (Dec 17, 2003)

NorthShore said:


> There will be aggression between all males to some degree or another. They will all fight for dominance of the tank. With a high female ratio, you will mostly see female colouration. With the rainbow types, you will see good colour. Not great, because its the boys who carry the best colour, but good. With sp red types, you will see less colour.
> 
> There will be breeding, but the fry will hold little value.


If the sex ratio total 2m/2f for the entire population, the display would be quite impressive don't you think? In this scenario, my guess is that one dominate male will color up and the other with duller colors, but each variant will have displaying males.

What do you mean about fry holding little value?


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## supafly (Dec 17, 2003)

24Tropheus said:


> But there again that tank had other errors too. Not enough filtration and too many rocks.


Can you elaborate a little more on how it did work for a short time and not for a long time?
Did you add all 6 different trophs at the same time? I figure it would be hard to track down all six types at one time.

Here is my plan:
tank 150g 60x24x24 or 180g 72x24x24
AquaTerra Malawi background
sand subrate with a few large boulders separating territories
3 x Aquaclear110 for machanical/chemical filteration
t5 lighting 
Lifeguard sand fluidized filter
will add powerhead if required


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## supafly (Dec 17, 2003)

flashg said:


> TitoTee said:
> 
> 
> > What ever you do - do not let anyone tell you - that you should'nt do it. It's your money, your tank and your desire.
> ...


Why do you think this kind of setup is more prone to bloat?


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## jetchanic (Jul 14, 2008)

The more stress that trophs have the more likely they are going to get bloat. The more males that you have means the more aggression that you will have. they will end up killing each other either by aggression or the submissive one will end up isolating itself and get bloat and die.


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

supafly said:


> NorthShore said:
> 
> 
> > There will be aggression between all males to some degree or another. They will all fight for dominance of the tank. With a high female ratio, you will mostly see female colouration. With the rainbow types, you will see good colour. Not great, because its the boys who carry the best colour, but good. With sp red types, you will see less colour.
> ...


It would seem to me that if the feedback generally given to hobbyists wanting to mix more than one variant in a tank is to not mix more than one because one group will dominate the other and even affect the reproductive abilities of the second colony, then that would also imply that the means by which a colony breeds is also affected. Territory, colouration and displaying.

I think each variant will have a displaying male, but how much the hierarchy will impact on the colouration of lesser males based on how much they are allowed to display is something that would need to be tried to be determined.

Do we know if that group of 6 variants will act as one colony or 6 separate colonies? At the very least, it's tough to predict. But again, based on hobbyist feedback about cross breeding, it appears as though they will act as one breeding colony. Now if you were mixing 6 variants with 100 individuals in each group, I think then you would have more independent structure/hierarchy within each variant group.

My comment about the value of fry is simply that with all the proof of cross-breeding between variants in aquaria, people interested in buying your fry would be concerned about the purity of the fry. 6 variants within a 24 fish group with 12 potential breeding males is quite risky in that respect, imo.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I added mine in two waves. Separated by about a month. (Would have added them all at once but all were not available at the one time or place) Deaths were not due to direct aggression (seen far worse damage done to Tropheus and them recover) but I think due to submissive fish dieing over the months (stress linked bloat I guess, one at a time without clear symptoms).

The main prob seemed to be the group in the middle, not holding territories, would not stay together and kept trying to hide. Males or dominant ones would attack there own type females/less dominant ones mostly. Did not have the same dynamics of a single or even two species group.


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## supafly (Dec 17, 2003)

24Tropheus said:


> The main prob seemed to be the group in the middle, not holding territories, would not stay together and kept trying to hide. Males or dominant ones would attack there own type females/less dominant ones mostly. Did not have the same dynamics of a single or even two species group.


What if the territories were minimized, not having any rocks, just plain substrate. This should lessen the majority of aggression and allow a more even playing feild. Thought??


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

That might work I think.
Would you like something like that as a show tank?
Wouldn't it look just like a shop tank?
Reasonably sure Topheus can be kept like that in mixes for long periods.
You could I guess make a background and base without messing it up with rocks.
Make something like this below and stock it.


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## supafly (Dec 17, 2003)

You're right. Maybe more like this.....

http://www.gillsnfins.ca/images/malawi_5.jpg 
http://www.gillsnfins.ca/images/tang_5.jpg

These are the backgrounds I am going to use. It alone provides enough aquascape that you wouldn't need to add much to it.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Sorry I was editing the post to add the picks. Yep I think (like you :wink: ) that that sort of a tank would have the most likely hood of success, even with a mix of Tropheus species.


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## flashg (Oct 5, 2007)

supafly said:


> Why do you think this kind of setup is more prone to bloat?


Not exactly sure... Maybe more aggression between the groups to dominate one another. 
But every time I have seen someone try to mix three or more variants... It always goes from a bunch of fish to a few fish! :wink:


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## supafly (Dec 17, 2003)

What other Tangs would go good with trophs? I am not talking alot, just few rock, cave, or shell dwellers would add a nice diversity to the mix. What has been a good long term mix for you?


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## jetchanic (Jul 14, 2008)

julidochromis and shell dwellers i think would be good mixes.


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## supafly (Dec 17, 2003)

I had some j.marlieri and gold n.ocellarus in mind.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Fine as you actually want hybrid fry eating a big Julie is a better than small.
For color I would go regani kippili though my fav large Julie :dancing: 
Same goes for the shelly, maybe something bigger and more happy with veggie fare like Telmatochromis burgeoni or alike would be even better than occies.


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## julieduchromis (May 6, 2008)

Quite a few years ago I tried this also, wanting the grandest tank display for troph's. Everyone at that time told me that it wouldn't work, that one kind would be dominant and I guess that is true. I had a 125 and I had four species. Green Murago, 1 m/4 f, Black saddles, 3 m/5 f, Chimba reds, 4 m/8 f, and Kabeyes, or yellow rainbows which never colored up. My set up had a sand substrate, with u/g filtration, (old school but successful since I have been in the hobby all my life and I have grandchildren now) and an external filter. I placed six almost flat rocks from the hillside here which I cleaned throughly and placed them staggered across the bottom, none of which the fish could get underneath. And I glued three plastic rocks to the back of the glass. It looked great. I added the trophs as I could get them, as young ones about 1/2 to 1" and they grew up together wonderfully. Then as they reached maturity it began, the fighting over territories. To my surprise the Chimba's were the most peaceful of them and the Black saddles the most aggressive. They chased and nipped, and drove the others around in the tank and I wound up setting up another tank just for the harrassed fish to survive in! In the end I wound up removing the Black saddles and keeping the others in the 125, and they got along much better without them. 
I did not have very many fry produced, because when ever they began to spawn, the other males would dash in and eat the eggs, or add their sperm to the mix. It was quite caos. It is reported that there are species that will get along quite well together and I guess if you are going to do this maybe a little homework would save you the headackes I experienced. I did not have any deaths due to the bloat, or aggressiion because I removed the fish at the first sign of trouble, ie: hiding, in the corners. 
I still dream of having a tank like this and I saw a beautiful setup, in the locat pet store which was a 350 marine setup, 3 x 5'. Maybe someday I will try this again. Good luck! Don't let anyone discourage you. Treat it as a scientific experiment and be very alert to the changes.


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## julieduchromis (May 6, 2008)

24Tropheus,
In your pic's of the tank was this created using concrete and sponges? I have seen this done and it looks great. Looks to be less a mess to clean as well. Is it really heavy?


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

For Tropheus I use natural lumps of limestone, not sure of the name, I saw em in a builders merchant about 20 years ago and grabbed them, used em for Malawi set ups and Tang set ups. The lines are natural rain weathering I think.

Yes, they are very heavy but you can just about lift each one with one hand. I use a peace of recycled roofing slate under them to spread the load. Been doing this long before I heard of egg crate etc.

I would love some more myself but have not seen any recently.

The tank pictured is not mine but its simple shaped melted polystirene painted with cement I think.
I have the photo saved as I mean to copy it myself   .
Either coat it with a see through pond varnish (G4 I think its called here) or leave to out to weather (like that one) for a long time (couple of months) and rinse very well a few times checking it does not alter the pH too much before its safe for fish I hear.


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## julieduchromis (May 6, 2008)

Thanks! How long have you been in the hobby?


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## wisjwara (Sep 25, 2006)

Hi,

I'm interested in Tropheus. I used to keep Discus for around 20 years, but I don't have any experience with this one. could anyone suggest important tips?

I have 180x65x70 cm tank with no cover on the top (hope Tropheus doesn;t like to jump), sump filter, tap water with pH around 7.

what's the practical way to increase the pH? Using dead corals?

Is it ok to keep Duboisi & Ikola? If not, what about Duboisi & Morii?

I plan to buy (hard to find breeder here in Indonesia) juveniles. How many should I put into the tank, considering some sorting have to be taken when they grow up.

Thanks so much,
wiryawan


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Hi wiryawan,
I think all the answers you are looking for are here
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/t ... corner.php
but why not start a new thread?

But for a first time Tropheus keeper (even one who has kept Discus well) I would recommend one species per tank. Get the hang of that before trying two species per tank etc and to some extent its still easier that way than mixing em with other fish like gobys, Julies etc.

(Oh to answer an earlier question, I have been killing (oops mean keeping) Tropheus small scale for about 30 years now and cichlids for about 10 years longer than that)

Only came on line about a year ago and learned more here and other Cichlid sites in that time than in the previous 29 of struggling on my own. :thumb:

Still learning too  

All the best James


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## julieduchromis (May 6, 2008)

opcorn: 24Tropheus, I agree with you on keeping (not killing) tropheus and getting used to one species. In my opinion they are no harder to keep than any other cichlid. I have had bloat in julie's on two occasions and none in the tropheus. I believe now that the bloat was caused by feeding brine shrimp and since I have illiminated it from all my fishs diet I have not had any bloat since then. Over feeding is another factor contributed with stress to cause bloat. OH and its great to meet someone who has been keeping fish that long TOO!! LOL!! :thumb: :wink:


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I guess that's were experiences differ. I found Julies tough as old boots with Tropheus except their habit of killing each other when two pair and the Troph if anything have more stomach problems than usual.
Mixes are more unpredictable I think so folks experiences will differ.
I see some mixes, that I do not think should last for more than a few days before mayhem, yet the owner reports very little aggression and no problems. Go figure


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## sneakypete (Mar 7, 2008)

FWIW, I'm currently mixing 20 Kaybeyeye trophs with 6 comps, a 3 lamps, a julie and some peacocks in a 125. So far so good. The julie is the worst of the crowd in terms of unwarranted aggression. They are all still pretty young (biggest troph is almost 5 inches, smallest is shy of 3) so the experiment is not finished yet and things could change at any time. The comps were the ones I was worried about the most, but they are getting enough food, which was my main concern. Other than that the trophs are too busy chasing each other around and scrapping with each other to be bothered with anyone else. It is one active tank, that's for sure.

I'm thinking of thining out the crowd a bit a getting rid of the peacocks. Not because of aggression, but more because I'm thinking of going 100% tang. Somehow the peacocks just don't look right in that mix. My wife wont be happy though.

I'm feeding NLS, a pure spurilina flake, and Omega One Veggie.

pete


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## wisjwara (Sep 25, 2006)

Hi James (24Tropheus),

Thanks so much for the advice.

cheers,
wiryawan


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