# Advice on max stocking



## alihikaua (Dec 4, 2016)

I have a 55g mixed cichlid tank which, after some trial and error, is pretty peaceful (for cichlids). I'd like to build up the variety a little bit more, but am not sure what a good max would be. I've heard the 1" per gallon rule, which I'm pretty close to already (in terms of final adult size), but the tank seems like it has room to grow. Given what I have below, how many more african-sized or dwarf (if appropriate) cichlids would you recommend be the max...or am I there already?

1 OB Peacock (4")
1 Ruby Red Peacock (3")
1 Yellow Lab (3")
2 Electric Blue Haps (3")
1 Jack Dempsey (4")
1 Texas (2")
1 Gold Severum (2")
1 Convict (1.5")
2 Tin Foil Barbs (2.5")
1 Pleco (2")
2 Julii Corys

I'm sure the answer to my question is dependent on species. I haven't seen a huge variety of other species available here, except oscars and green terrors, but I'm trying to stay away from the larger and/or "very" aggressive SA/CA ones (I'm already worried about the final size of my JD and the 2 barbs). I had a Johanni in there for a while, but had to boot him for being too much of a tank bully. Thoughts?


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## alihikaua (Dec 4, 2016)

Can't figure out how to upload this...
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2EwymAp_QLxOFdBdW1KakIyQ1FCVmJ4RVdvQVdfejBxTWtn


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

The completely discredited inch per gallon rule was not accepted by most from the start. In fact a lawsuit was filed against its inventor and promoter. It only works if you assume that only peaceful compatible species that have an adult size about an inch are placed in an aquarium with a height of ten to twelve inches. But it is so easy to remember that it still pops up.

For a display of varied cichlids and large barbs, a fifty five gallon tank does not have the swimming space for the barbs when they reach full size. It does not have the floor space to allow all of the cichlids to stake out an uncontested territory. Using oversize sumps, refugiums, and filters connected to the aquarium, it is possible to maintain water quality at a high level in a very small aquarium, but some of the fish will grow so large that they won't be able to gracefully turn around in the aquarium and my end up always facing the same direction.


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

IMO/E you are already beyond overstocked. A 55 is barely adequate for an adult Jack Dempsey and one other fish. Additionally, you have mixed SA/CA and African cichlids which is not optimal for a number of reasons.

The inch per gallon rule should be stricken forever. In terms of waste and impact on an aquarium, compare 10 1 inch neon tetras with a single 10" cichlid. The cichlid will have a mass of 100x the tetras, and the corresponding wastes etc will scale that way. There is no way 10 1" fish and 1 10" fish are equal.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Actually a ten inch fish has the volume and mass of one thousand one inch fish. It is ten times as long, ten times as thick, and ten times as tall. 10 X 10 X10 = 1000 The inch per gallon "rule" has never been the rule for nearly all fish and most aquariums. Aggression, diet, territory, and temperature range all have effects as important to aquatic life as aquarium volume.


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

Mcdaphnia said:


> Actually a ten inch fish has the volume and mass of one thousand one inch fish. It is ten times as long, ten times as thick, and ten times as tall. 10 X 10 X10 = 1000 The inch per gallon "rule" has never been the rule for nearly all fish and most aquariums. Aggression, diet, territory, and temperature range all have effects as important to aquatic life as aquarium volume.


was going to go with 1000x but thought maybe that was overstating the point, however the math is there. :fish:


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## tanker3 (May 18, 2015)

I agree with all, you are "way over max" for a 55gal, and not a good mix of African and New World Cichlids.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Math is only one facet of determining how many fish can be kept in a particular tank. A ten inch oscar for example would need 1000 gallons if you applied the inch per gallon rule volumetrically. In practice, a 75 is adequate for an oscar, and a compatible pair can be kept in a 150 gallon tank. Yes you would see more natural behaviors from them if kept in tanks of a thousand gallons or more, but they adapt.

A single buttikoferi cichlid due to its high aggression level, would be the only intact inhabitant even in a two or three hundred gallon tank.

Mixing cichlids from different continents is done in spite of all the reasons not to, and with immature and juvenile fish, it can sometimes work temporarily. Only if they all come from similar water conditions or are tank raised strains that have adapted to most kinds of tap water. Soft water fish from West African and softwater fish from the Amazon may get long as youngsters, but when puberty appears, instinctive behaviors may put them at odds. Imagine a fish assuming a posture that to it means, "I give up. You win. You are the boss of this tank." But the other fish instinctively recognizes that same posture as meaning, "OK, I'm ready to spawn with you now."


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## alihikaua (Dec 4, 2016)

Wow, I didn't know how wrong the 1" rule thing was... thanks for that. It seems like a lot of people feel I'm already overcrowded already, but is that based on current fish size or full grown size? I was considering taking out the barbs. I only put them in there as target fish initially when I had a couple of bullies, but the bullies are gone and the cichlids totally ignore the barbs anyway. The JD was the other one I was worried about in the long run, but like I said, right now everyone gets along and they seem (to me anyway) to have room to do their thing.

So, sounds like most of you lean toward minimal fish with territorial claims vs. full stocked (removing the ability to claim territory)? I've gotten advice both ways, but I don't really like the idea of overstocking.

Re: Mixing Africans and SA/CA... if they're all getting along, does it really matter? I've seen so many people emphasize that individual fish personality is more important than species or regional characteristics.

Thanks for your input - I'm very new at this.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

For Africans, fully stocked would allow for the fish to claim a territory. Individual fish personality is important, but fish that do not behave according to the norm for the species tend to be the exception rather than the rule. The aggression may start when the fish are more mature. Your Africans are there...your New World may have a ways to go. Stock your tank according to mature sizes.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

alihikaua said:


> ...
> 
> Re: Mixing Africans and SA/CA... if they're all getting along, does it really matter? I've seen so many people emphasize that individual fish personality is more important than species or regional characteristics.
> 
> Thanks for your input - I'm very new at this.


It matters. Although they "all look alike" to us, fish are genetically as distantly related to each other as tigers are to to sheep or sheep to mice. Individual fish personality is a minor factor in the face of adaptations that make one fish a predator and another a vegetarian. If you are feeding swordtails to your cichlids and one survives, it may be a matter of environment affecting personality. If he grows up with the cichlids and you move him to a swordtail tank, he may continue to practice what he learned and be a menace to his kinsmen. That kind of experience may be what causes people to falsely assume that personality outweighs eons of genetic selection.


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## alihikaua (Dec 4, 2016)

Ok, thanks all. I'm looking at getting rid of the barbs and transferring at least the JD, if not all the new worlds, into another tank. I have a 40 breeder, but it's currently housing a 5" RES. Any comments about mixing RES with cichlids? I know the 40 isn't big enough in the long run so don't jump on me... I'm just talking temporarily. I have a 20long also, though I've been keeping that as a hospital tank.

Thanks


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If you had this in a 48x12 55G tank I would be OK adding another and other male 6 haps or peacocks:
1 OB Peacock (4")
1 Ruby Red Peacock (3")
1 Yellow Lab (3")
1 Electric Blue Hap (3")
1 BN pleco

Addition suggestions:
A yellow peacock, Aulonocara stuartgranti maleri Maleri Island
This yellow peacock can work with the first, Aulonocara stuartgranti Usisya
A blue peacock, Aulonocara stuartgranti Cobue
Placidochromis electra
Protomelas marginatus
Otopharynx tetrastigma

Those other fish do not sound appropriate for a 40G either together or alone...how long will they have to be in the 40G?

I would post in SA or CA for questions on housing one or more of those fish in a 40G for a time. A quick Google suggests you might need a separate 75G tank for each of these:
1 Jack Dempsey (4")
1 Texas (2")
1 Gold Severum (2")
Tin Foil barbs, I have seen a minimum 7 foot tank recommended. FWIW as I have no experience with New World Cichlids.


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## alihikaua (Dec 4, 2016)

DJRansome said:


> Those other fish do not sound appropriate for a 40G either together or alone...how long will they have to be in the 40G?


Not sure. The main issue is the RES (red eared slider) I have in there now. But even if I move him out to a pond, the 40g might be my only option for a while - at least a year. As you suggest, I'll post in the SA / CA thread for more input. Thank you!


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

I would not put your slider out in a pond for fear of it escaping. Once out of captivity in Hawaii they are a potential threat to the environment, eating small native stream fish.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I think I would rehome the SA and CA fish, the barbs and the cories.


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## alihikaua (Dec 4, 2016)

Mcdaphnia said:


> I would not put your slider out in a pond for fear of it escaping. Once out of captivity in Hawaii they are a potential threat to the environment, eating small native stream fish.


I totally appreciate your sensitivity to invasive species - malama ka aina! In this case, I meant a constructed pond in my yard, with walls to prevent that. Actually, I found this particular turtle as a hatchling at a natural pond here (at my son's school) as opposed to buying him.


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## alihikaua (Dec 4, 2016)

DJRansome said:


> I think I would rehome the SA and CA fish, the barbs and the cories.


Just curious, why the corys? They're small, the cichlids ignore them, and they are helping to manage waste food, right?


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

alihikaua said:


> Just curious, why the corys? They're small, the cichlids ignore them, and they are helping to manage waste food, right?


Let me give my answer. It may be different from DJRansome's. 
1. They don't eat waste or manage wasted food. They are looking for aquatic worms and invertebrates as they sift through the substrate bringing us to
2. Cichlid substrates can be more angular and germy than the soft rounded sand they favor, leading to damage to their mouth parts.
3. They live naturally in schools of millions or at least thousands. I like to have at least seven of the same species together.
4. Eventually the cichlids will pay attention to them. Obviously that will be bad for the cories, but they can retaliate. They have spines with varying potency of toxins depending on species which they can use in defense or aggressively, and if swallowed, raise their spines and become lodged in the predator's throat.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I agree. Further, there have been many posts of cory harassment when they are in African tanks.

Better to have the fishkeeper manage waste food (by not feeding it).

If you want a bottom feeder or catfish, Synodontis lucipinnis in a group of 5 are a good choice with Rift Lake Africans.


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## alihikaua (Dec 4, 2016)

Mcdaphnia said:


> Let me give my answer. It may be different from DJRansome's.
> 1. They don't eat waste or manage wasted food. They are looking for aquatic worms and invertebrates as they sift through the substrate bringing us to
> 2. Cichlid substrates can be more angular and germy than the soft rounded sand they favor, leading to damage to their mouth parts.
> 3. They live naturally in schools of millions or at least thousands. I like to have at least seven of the same species together.
> 4. Eventually the cichlids will pay attention to them. Obviously that will be bad for the cories, but they can retaliate. They have spines with varying potency of toxins depending on species which they can use in defense or aggressively, and if swallowed, raise their spines and become lodged in the predator's throat.


Gotcha. I had no idea about points 2-4, but I'm confused about point 1. I was told that a cory's most common role in a tank is to manage food waste (not fish waste, to clarify) on the substrate. I guess I got bad info. Thanks for the thoughtful answer.


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## alihikaua (Dec 4, 2016)

DJRansome said:


> I agree. Further, there have been many posts of cory harassment when they are in African tanks.
> 
> Better to have the fishkeeper manage waste food (by not feeding it).
> 
> If you want a bottom feeder or catfish, Synodontis lucipinnis in a group of 5 are a good choice with Rift Lake Africans.


Thanks DJ, I guess being a newbie I'm still not sure I'm feeding in the correct amounts, and was concerned about food waste upping my nitrite levels. The Synodontis lucipinnis looks really interesting, though I haven't seen any locally. I'll try asking around the LFSs here.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

They are often sold as dwarf petricola (even though that is not correct).

STILL better to watch your cichlids eat and stop feeding if any pellets reach the substrate.

Or if you see some food on the substrate, siphon it out.

More fish to eat the leftovers translates to more poop to up the nitrate levels.


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## alihikaua (Dec 4, 2016)

DJRansome said:


> ... and stop feeding if any pellets reach the substrate.


I'm using sinking pellets, so they all reach the substrate. Should I be using something else?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

No you are feeding too much. The cichlids should catch the pellets on the way down (at least Africans would). Or even scoop them off the surface in that second between when they hit and when they start to sink.


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## alihikaua (Dec 4, 2016)

****, apparently I'm doing everything wrong. Well, good thing I'm learning it now I guess.

Thanks all


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