# Odd tank hierarchy



## ssoto (Feb 2, 2006)

I have strange sitution going on in my tank. I have a 135gal with an Oscar (13") Vieja (12") JD (9") a small GT (6") and some SD dithers. They have all been together for 2+ years.

My Oscar was the dominant fish simply due to it's size until the last month or so. Now I have a rock/paper/scissors situation going on. The Oscar dominates the JD. The JD dominates the Vieja. And the Vieja dominates the Oscar. I assumed the Vieja would eventually dominate the tank but it doesn't even attempt to challenge the JD. It's actually pretty comical. The vieja will initiate a confrontation with the Oscar and the Oscar will attempt to stand it's ground but back "pedalling" the entire time. Then the JD will come to its rescue and scare off the vieja. Then the JD will just sit there admiring it's work and the Oscar will take a nip at him and the JD heads for cover. It's like the oscar is embarassed that the lil guy had to help him out just like cartoon with Spike the Bulldog and the little pest dog :lol: Anyone else have a situation like this?


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## scrivz (Dec 2, 2008)

For a short while I had a mishmash of CA/SA cichlids in my 75g: an oscar, a salvini, a firemouth, and a honduran red point. The oscar was dominant over the sal and FM, the sal was dominant over the FM and about even with the HRP, and the oscar was dominant to the FM and sal but submissive to the HRP.

Nothing like watching a little blue fish chase a big orange one. :lol:


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

My oscars (individually and as a family group in the 800) have always acted as the police, or the police department. :lol: They would run the entire tank, breaking up squabbles and every once and a while the matriarch would send out henchmen to do her dirty work :lol:

The best was when I had one silly little jerk of an african in the 800 take over the entire tank! He was only 5" or so and was put in there to be eaten by my shovelnose... It took the shovelnose like three months to catch him :lol:


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## Gino Santangelo (Nov 26, 2008)

When I was young had oscar and a red bellie. The oscar would constantly chase the red bellie around. One day the red bellie turned around and took a clean chunk out of the oscars face. To this day I feel bad for housing the two together.


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## ssoto (Feb 2, 2006)

So do you think this situation will continue or do you think eventually one fish will establish itseld as king of the tank? I actually prefer the current situation since no one gets picked on too bad. The Vieja does like to mess with the Oscar but at least the big guy fights back :lol: . The Oscar is actually the most outgoing fish. He spends the majority of his time attacking his reflection and lunges at anything that goes in the tank. 
The little GT is left alone for the most part. He has a huge nuchal hump for being such a little guy. But he likes to tease the bigger fish from time to time so he does take his lumps. But he can hide where the others can't so he always goes back for more.


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## Gino Santangelo (Nov 26, 2008)

After two plus years they seem to be fine together. After all they're just fish, short life span. What do they know. If you were a fish what would you do.


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## ssoto (Feb 2, 2006)

i think you kind of missed the point, Gino...The Oscar has been the undisputed king of the Tank for the last 1.5 years once it passed up the JD in size (the JD is about a year older)...all was peaceful until about a month ago. The other fish would all head for the hills once the Oscar decided he wanted their space. I'm asking some of the more experienced fish keepers if they have had similar LONG TERM situations like this or does one fish eventually become the "top dog".


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Gino Santangelo said:


> After two plus years they seem to be fine together. After all they're just fish, short life span. What do they know. If you were a fish what would you do.


Everythying in his tank has the ability to live 20 years or better.

And to answer the question, There's no way to know, but right now the tank is perfect. I would want it to stay the way it is, no real aggressor is the way to go for long term!

One thing that would definately make it change is adding another cichlid. So simply don't add one. Any time something changes there's a potential to change the order of things... You could get a really cool huge rock and put it in the tank and one of them might want to claim it, then proceed to claim the rest of the tank while they're at it....


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

ssoto said:


> So do you think this situation will continue or do you think eventually one fish will establish itseld as king of the tank?


What you call a rock/paper/scissor situation is a paradox. But it happens all the time in cichlid tank, growing up. I call it a "triangle". Fish A is tougher then fish B which is tougher then fish C which is tougher then fish A. It's a transition that usually doesn't last. In the long run, very unliklely that your Veija won't rule your tank. An oscar is a super slow target and a Veija is is a BIG super fast "knock out punch". A one dimensional fighter nontheless, but when it omes down to it, a total mismatch against a soft bodied oscar. All dependes on when your veija is willing to stand up for itself!


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

The all important thing to keep in mind is every cichlid has it's own personality! So in reality it's impossible to tell what's going to happen!


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## Gino Santangelo (Nov 26, 2008)

Please pardon my poor atempt to ask ssoto to think like a ciclid in the wild. Can a cichlid conceptualize captivity? Or have I still missed the piont .


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

I don't think we get your point??? Please elaborate.


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## the_evil_dickfeldi (Feb 17, 2006)

It's not only cichlids....I once saw a rather odd case too!

WARNING: Do not follow!

This guy I know, he had a weird tank, and probably the worst combo was a 2 inch frontosa, a 7 inch oscar and a 12 inch arowana. The oscar was completely docile, and the arowana often scared him. But the arowana was afraid by a fish like 1/20 his own size! He would run, cower or bend submissively when he saw the front! But some of the arowana's past meals included 2 3 inch bitterings, a fat 3 inch goldfish and a 3 inch Anomalochromis thomasi, who kept chasing the front! And the oscar, while doing nothing to the front, often scared the little blue guy by his mere presense!

Mind you, it's not just CAs, or even just cichlids for that matter. Fish are weird! So you gotta love them!


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## phishes (May 17, 2005)

My smaller firemouth bullies my larger salvini :lol:


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## ssoto (Feb 2, 2006)

I assumed the slower to mature Vieja (i need to post a pic, he was sold as a Syns but probably a hybrid) was eventually going to dominate the tank once he caught up to the Oscars size. But he remained reltively calm until just recently. What i didn't expect was for him to be completely SCARED of the JD. The JD mostly just hangs out in his cave but every now and then he comes out like a missle attacking the Vieja. And it's the ONLY fish the JD ever chases. He even leaves the GT and the SD's alone. While the Oscar is simply ornary he attacks everything. He even initiates some the fights with the Vieja but he's always the one to back down. 
And i understand your point Bernie but i figured after 2+ the hierarchy had been established. Don't most fish reach "maturity" at 2 years?


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

> Don't most fish reach "maturity" at 2 years?


Not all do, but yours should be...


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## ssoto (Feb 2, 2006)

TheFishGuy said:


> > Don't most fish reach "maturity" at 2 years?
> 
> 
> Not all do, but yours should be...


That's what i thought. Which is why i thought it was odd that the Vieja suddenly wanted to rule the roost.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

You might consider a 2 yr. old Veija to be "mature". It's certainly sexually mature in captivity at a younger age then this. But fish continue to grow for their entire life, however slow it may be, until they die ------ at least that is my understanding.

A male syn can get 16" or more. I am not saying it WILL or that all do, but they certainly can. Usually a cichlid will grow rapidly in it's first 2 years and then grow rather slowly, lengthwise. But a male CA will often put on a lot of size in terms of becoming deeper bodied and thicker over the next few years. It could even double in size with out getting much longer. Some CA can even go on a growth spurt at 6-7 years old ---- I had a female Jag that did that, growing a couple of inches at this age ( from ~14" to 16").

A heirarchy is not set in stone; in a cichlid community tank it often changes significantly over time. Your Vieja may never stand up to your dempsey; it just may never bother to do so. But eventually it should have enough of a weight advantage, that it will rule your tank. Probably but not nessessarily. Nothing is set in stone.

Your JD probably sees your syn as more of a threat, and rightly so. If they are the same sex, even more of a rival. There both CA -----similar enough fish. Ounce for ounce, a JD can be a very tough fish, but a syn can get a lot bigger.

CA also develope over time in other ways. Scales get thicker. Gill plates get thicker. Heads and eyes grow larger proportionately. Usually age is a very significant factor in the heirarchy ----an older fish being tougher and more capable then an equivalent younger one.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

What he said^^^^^^


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## ssoto (Feb 2, 2006)

Good stuff. None of the fish i have are capable of breeding tho, correct? I'm pretty sure i researched that before i added the oscar and vieja (they are about a year younger than the other fish).


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

I think you'll be ok....


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