# Bigger fish have caved stomachs?



## jnick (Aug 17, 2011)

Most of my fish are 3-4". However I have four or so fish ranking around 6-7" with one guy at 9". All of these larger fish are beginning to get caved stomachs. I'm assuming they aren't getting enough food.

I feed NLS Cichlid Formula. I usually just eye it and do pinch feedings. I make sure everyone eats and ALL of these big guys DO eat. I'm just afraid that the 1mm pellets aren't big enough to fill these big boys.

Do I just need to feed more?


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

The 1 mm pellets will fill them if they get enough. Usually the larger fish don't get pushed aside at feeding time though. You can tell if they feed eagerly, that means they're hungry. You don't want to overfeed, but it sounds like maybe they need more. If the tank gets dirty with excess food, then cut back.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

IME holow bellys is more likely due to aggression or undersized tank than any other prob. Grumbling stuff all our fish carry bring em down when stressed. Also more likely is poor water unnoticed nitrate biuld up. Old age is another caurse but thats if you have had em over 5 years or so then a holow belly is kind of usual and OK..
In my estimation given the high nutrients in NLS its practicaly impossible to underfeed even if you feed em only once every two days.

But unless you get a good diagnosis its kind of hard to suggest a treatment without seeing the fish in question.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

A bigger pellet is not the solution. They need to be able to compete with their tank mates to get their fair share. What are the dimensions of the tank and a list of the species/genders?


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## jnick (Aug 17, 2011)

The tank is an all-male 125G Peacock/Hap tank.

Stock list:

8" Tangerine Tiger (Caved stomach)
7" Venustus
6" Insignis (Caved stomach)
6" Red Empress
6" Deep Water Hap
6" Mloto
5" Flametail
5" Blue Regal
5" Flavescent
4" Walteri (Caved Stomach)
4" Boadzulu-strain Red Empress
4" Bi-Color
4" Intermedius
4" Lwanda
4" Dragon Blood
4" Turkis
3.5" Lemon Jake
3.5" Lithobates
3.5" Star Sapphire
3.5" Fryer
3.5" Taiwan Reef
3.5" Red Shoulder
3" Benga Yellow
2.5" German Red
2.5" Flametail 
2.5" BNP (x2) -- One male, other is unknown gender
3" Synodontis Polli -- Unknown Gender

Filtration: FX-5 and Rena XP-2 with inline 18w Turbotwist UV on the XP2. I'm about to do a water test so I'll have parameters shortly!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Too many fish for me in a 72" tank and you have a LOT of protomelas. I'd take out the tangerine tiger and the insignis at least.


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## jnick (Aug 17, 2011)

DJ,

I get so confused as I know you've told me a couple of times that you feel I'm over stocked (I usually sit at 25 fish, have two additional as I'm trying to re-home them). However, when asking reputable LFS or other members, I've been told 30-40 fish in a 125G. I felt 25 (again, I'm at 27 as I need to re-home) is a good long-term stocking population leaving me slight headroom should I see a "GOTTA HAVE" type of fish. Is this a matter of personal preference or is there a hard rule for 125Gs that I've been steered wrong on...?

However, you do make a very good point that I have a lot of protomelas. I didn't even realize that...I guess that shows the "newb" in me as I've only been keeping for about 1.5 years! I must say though, and please take this with no disrespect, but there is _no way_ I'm getting rid of the Tangerine Tiger or Insignis. They are two of my favorite fish as well as some of the only fish that stay full-color/show quality all the time.

With that said, I am looking to re-home my 6" RE. I have been since July without any luck . This would leave me with the Tangerine, Insignis, Boadzulu Red and Taiwan Reef as again, all protomelas. Do you foresee an issue with this? Do I need to also re-home my Taiwan Reef?

Finally, the one fish that I've seen in my tank act like a complete a-hole is my venustus. You may remember he and the Moori I had used to tussle, as in literally bite each other. I re-homed the Moori because of this. However, since then, the Venustus literally picks on everyone, but mainly the 5" + fish. The Red empress, Insignis, Mloto and Deep water, BIG time. The only guy he rarely challenges is the Tangerine Tiger. The venustus has also never really re-colored. He is always solid green with the blue mouth. The only time his giraffe-like spots show is during feeding.

Therefore, I've been thinking about starting by re-homing the 6" RE and Venustus. My only fear is, if I remove these two, especially the Venustus, I'm sure someone else will step up as the "a-hole", so to speak.

Again, DJ, I mean this post in no disrespect nor an attack on you. Quite the opposite actually. As a newbie in the hobby, I'm seeking to learn as much as I can from other cichlid-keepers. I'm trying my hardest to create a great looking, successful show tank of male peacock and haps. Obviously I have some issues that need to be worked out but I also have certain favorites that I'd love to work around .

Thanks again for the help, DJ.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Always hard giving advice on all male tanks.
You can see the fishes interactions and are prob the best judge of what needs to be changed in the short term.
But yep kind of agree thats quite a few potentialy huge tank bosses, need skill and luck to pull it off well.
On the poss side I think you are now looking for agression probs not blaming caved in bellys on the food. 8)

All the best James


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

venustus funny fish had a 12" guy as peaceful as anything. But also had a 4" guy absolute killer. Go figure.

Sometimes its just down to the individual character of the cichlid I guess.  

All the best James


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Even if you have a tank that "should" work...when it has issues I start tinkering. Gotta do something, right? :thumb:


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## jnick (Aug 17, 2011)

Very true, DJ...very true! This is why I'm thinking of moving the Venustus and Red Empress, to start.

Here are a couple of pictures of the guys with caved stomachs. Please note that all three DO eat every day.




























Just to give you an idea of what I'm looking at. I also have a 9.5 minute video I will link up for anyone who wants to observe how the fish are interacting with each other:






After viewing that, you may understand why I want to start by removing the venustus and 6" Red Empress! LOL opcorn:


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

1 its a beautiful tank and great fish.
2 I can see the ones you mentinon are not swimming right and yep have hollow bellys.
I for sure dunno the answer but yep you have a (I hope smallish) prob in that community.

Maybe try a broad spectrum antibiotic. But thing is yep you may have an undiscovered bully.

Just my opionion I as can see its a well managed tank with no water probs.

Arg it should have worked Ok.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Roughly how much are you feeding daily? Once daily or multiple feedings?


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Is that a super red empress the red empress is chasing? You might want to remove one of those. I think you have 4 Protomelas species in the tank? I don't see anybody messing with the tangerine tiger at all. May just be stress from all the individual chasing. Did you add all these fish at once? Do you have another tank to remove a few of the aggressors and see if that helps?


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## jnick (Aug 17, 2011)

@24Tropheus - Thanks for the comments...I have Metro in the mail. It should be here Wednesday. I plan to treat the whole tank.

@GTZ - I am feeding once a day, roughly around 7-8pm. I feed NLS 1mm pellets.

@razor - Yes, my 6" Red empress is chasing what I call a super red (Boadzulu strain). I initially bought the RE at a LFS but came across a GEM of a super red and had to have it. That was back around July/August. I have been trying to rehome the RE since but there have been no takers thus far . The Tangerine Tiger pretty much owns that spot, right by the big rock. I have that rock angled so fish can swim behind. The Tangerine Tiger owns it and only shares it with the clean up crew, lol. These fish were NOT added all at once. It's been a work in progress since last March. I RARELY add jsut once fish. I try to add at least two at a time, with the exception of the Lwanda...he went in Solo.

Unfortunately, I only have a 10G tank that's currently holding Fry. If I had to, I could move them to a breeders net then move the red empress I'm trying to sell to the 10G. I'm trying to get a 20 long as a Quarantine to replace the 10G but I have yet to find a place in the apartment to put it.

Based on the video, do you guys feel the Venustus should go as well? I notice he is rather aggressive towards nearly everyone. Or should I start with just the one Red Empress and a Metro treatment?

Speaking of, how does metro work? I read you treat the tank every two days for seven total treatments? During this time, should I leave the lights out? What if I have a UV Sterilizer? Will it negatively affect the treatment in any way?

Thanks again, everyone!


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## jnick (Aug 17, 2011)

BTW, this is what the super red looked like before the RE began bullying . I'm hoping at some point to get this gorgeous guy to flourish again:






BIG difference between then and today. The RE has totally de-colored the Super Red Empress . But again, unfortunately I have no where t o put him and found no one to sell him to.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

jnick said:


> @24Tropheus - Thanks for the comments...I have Metro in the mail. It should be here Wednesday. I plan to treat the whole tank.
> 
> @GTZ - I am feeding once a day, roughly around 7-8pm. I feed NLS 1mm pellets.
> 
> ...


I recently sold a 6" male red empress on CL no problem. You might try that. As for the Venstus what I am seeing in him is pretty normal. There are a lot of large haps that act similar. He doesn't appear to be picking on one fish and doing any severe chasing as far as what I can see in the video. Looks as though he is saying "you are in my way, I am the boss, now move". Pretty normal. It also seems as though the lemon jake is pretty aggressive. You may want to try and move him to another tank and then re-add a month or two later. May or may not work.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Metro dosed in the water for a 125g will get expensive fast. If that's your plan, I'd feed metro soaked food instead. 1 scoop per tbsp of food, or thereabouts. Mix it with hot water first, it doesn't take much, enough to get a consistency somewhere between water and paste, then add the food and let sit for a few minutes to soak, then feed. This way you don't have to worry about the UV sterlilzer. Feed for 7-10 days.


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## jnick (Aug 17, 2011)

Yeah, the Lemon Jake is a bossman in the tank. I noticed it mainly goes after the Lwanda or Walteri which I was hoping wouldn't happen but I guess it's inevitable. I was hoping with the three, the aggression would be balanced.

@GTZ - Thanks for the tip! I'll be sure to treat in their food as well. However, I was reading a 125G should get roughly 1.5 teaspoons, twice a day. Being I purchased the 1 kilo container, I figured it would last me quite a while...no?


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## jnick (Aug 17, 2011)

Wow...nvm. Not sure what I was thinking but I ordered 1 kilo of SAFE not metro...it was 100gram of metro lol. Anyway, according to the place where I got it from, it states 1 teaspoon treats 164 gallons of water...does that sound right?


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Sounds about right. I'm used to mg. What I've come across is 1/4 tsp per 20g. Your dosage works out to 1/8 tsp per 20g. Metro is difficult to overdose, so anywhere in that ballpark should be fine.


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## jnick (Aug 17, 2011)

I'm just curious, is it more effective in their food vs the water?


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

It's more effective in food.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Very hard to say.
Generaly for infected fish (if eating well) in the food is pretty good at treating an individual fish. Gets the most into the problem area.
Whole tank treatments reduce chance of problems spreading and the bugs whatever they are are also dosed in the water and can be used when the fish stop feeding or stopping feeding is part of the treatment.
I have not much experience of using one vs other because I tend to use both or neither.
Moving to a treatment tank if cost too much to treat whole system or if its only some fish I want to treat.

No wories about Metro damaging your filters its only effective vs anaerobic bacteria and flagellates not airobic bacteria in the filters.

If Metro fails then its time to try something that effects more organisms (inc aerobic bacteria) but you have to do more waterchanges or use chem filtration as those kill or damage your filter bacteria.

All the best James


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Oh if treating the water be sure to remove carbon or any filter material (pads usually) that work by absorbtion from your filters. Otherwise Metro will be removed before it has much chance to treat the fish.


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## jnick (Aug 17, 2011)

So The treatment is done (7-days) and I've been upping my feedings to 1tsp, once a day. I've noticed remarkably improved fish in regards to their caved stomachs. I initially thought the caved stomachs were in regards to some parasite and did the metro treatment just in case. However, I'm beginning to believe I was not feeding anywhere near enough. I used to throw in about 2-3 pinches of NLS 1mm for the crew.

However, I now face another issue. My 8" Tangerine Tiger is still showing a slightly caved stomach. Watching him during feeding time, he does eat, but I do not believe he is eating near enough. Yet, the more I throw food in, the more the other fish snatch it up. Now I'm sitting here with a couple of fish with VERY rounded bellies and a 8" Tangerine Tiger with a slightly caved stomach.

Is it just something that is normal due to his sheer size, that his stomach will look slightly caved? Or is there another issue I will have to sort out?

Here are some pics so you can see the vast differences.

Tiger with slightly caved stomach:









Taiwan Reef with a rather full stomach:









Intermedius with a full stomach:









Do you feel the Tangerine Tiger looks ok? Or is this something to be concerned about?


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Yeah....you will have that problem from time to time with more aggressive eaters getting the lion's share of the food. I solve that by spreading it out across the tank.


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## 4RSo (Aug 13, 2011)

I do the same, actually I put food right in front of the spray bar so it gets pushed to the back where the less aggressive fish are. Then I place some behind the spray bar so it sinks where I place it and everyone is fed well. my problem is I don't stop until I see their stomachs bulging out and a little smile on their faces.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

Metro only stays active for 8 hrs. I always treat 3 times per day for 7 days. Most just treat twice per day. Every other day will be a waste of time and money.


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## jnick (Aug 17, 2011)

Who said every other day? I treated for 7 days straight :thumb:


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

jnick said:


> Who said every other day? I treated for 7 days straight :thumb:


You did.

"Speaking of, how does metro work? I read you treat the tank every two days for seven total treatments".

Just trying to help bud. :thumb:


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## jnick (Aug 17, 2011)

Doh! Sorry! That was before I knew more! Thanks for the help! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


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