# What Dither Fish in a 55 gallon?



## TheSimster (Jul 30, 2009)

I would like to get some dither fish for a 55 gallon tank. I currently have:

1 Red Zebra
1 Yellow Lab
1 Blotched Peacock
1 Bumblebee
2 Fuelleborni
1 Common Pleco (Trinidad, I think)

Any Suggestions?


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## steelers fan (Jun 26, 2009)

*** been told on this site that the best dithers for mbuna are more mbuna...its worked for me...26 in a 55gal


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## TheSimster (Jul 30, 2009)

I mean other fish besides mbuna


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Why?

To add dithers to an established tank is pretty much a death sentence for the dithers.

And there is no reason to need them with mbuna. Usually, the only reason people try this is to bring their fish out of hiding, when, in reality, proper stocking with the Malawi cichlids would take care of that problem. :thumb:


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## TheSimster (Jul 30, 2009)

Because I want 1-3 fish that aren't Africans to spice up the tank a little.


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## BigFish77 (Feb 1, 2009)

Get some med. sized clown loaches or syn. Lace catfish.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

TheSimster said:


> Because I want 1-3 fish that aren't Africans to spice up the tank a little.


That red zebra isn't spicing things up enough for you?

Clown loaches are a good suggestion, but be careful. If the red zebra is showing out like you've stated in other threads, he might not be too glad to see them.


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## TheSimster (Jul 30, 2009)

I'm thinking of returning the RZ. He's a bit too aggressive for me.

Would a Red fin shark or a Tin barb also be good? How about a NW cichlid like a Green Terror?


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## emptyhead (Apr 16, 2007)

It sounds like you need to set up a community tank. The problem is that you started with fish that will not do well with most communty fish.

Some people have had some success (they don't kill each other) mixing different types of fish, but you will not see natural behaviour from your fish this way. A red fin shark would do well singly in a community tank, and the tin foil barb is too big for a 55g. A green terror and mbuna will not play nice. Your common pleco will out grow the tank also.

NW cichlids and African cichlids have different water needs. You will see the best color and behaviour from fish kept in proper water and tank set ups.

If you cater your tank to the mbuna, then any other fish put in should not be highly valued fish as they will not do well. You could add some of the smaller faster barbs or giant danios, but they may eventually get killed.

My recommendation if you are keeping the mbuna is to add 5 more yellow labs and a group of 4 syno cats. Keep your eye on the bumblebee (kenyi or crabro?) and the OB peacock as they may try to dominate the tank and cause problems.


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## TheSimster (Jul 30, 2009)

I do not want a community tank at all. And the other fish I get will not be top priority, I just want to know if a red tail shark and a green terror can be in the tank.


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## kodyboy (Dec 9, 2007)

they might be ok, I have kept red-tails with africans and have had no problems, never tried a green terror. I have use various dither fish in past, giant danio, rainbowfish, barbs (rosy and tiger) and columbian tetras. All have worked to various degrees but the other posters are correct, more mbuna is really the way to go. I would suggest groups of six for the labs, zebras (one male), labeotropheus, and get rid of the peacock (will probably get killed) and bumblebee (big and mean when mature). You could add a group of petricola catfish for fry control and a red-tail shark if you really want to.


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## TheSimster (Jul 30, 2009)

Thanks, I already have one male zebra and will probably get another yellow lab when my LFS gets them. That just leaves the NW cichlids.


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## Afishionado (Jun 6, 2006)

If the red zebra is too much of a pain for you just wait until a Green Terror comes into it's own! Honestly, your tank needs some focus. It's a good size but not big enough to be all things to you at once succesfully. Make it a Malawi mbuna tank or a community of smaller less agressive New Worlds or a wet-pet tank. Singles (or two's) of various mbuna plus a Green Terror is not a good mix. A tank that works is much more interesting to look at than one that contains variey for the sake of variety. The fish will show you that...

Good luck.


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## TheSimster (Jul 30, 2009)

What about a different NW cichlid, like a Firemouth.


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## rrcoolj (Apr 8, 2008)

Many people aren't to kind to the fact of mixing american and african cichlids. They are just too differnt from eachother. They need differnt parameters, americans you don't overstock unlike africans, and they even speak differnt "languages" so to speak. The point to a mbuna tank is the mbunas and thats really it. Synos and some other cats are good but for the most part the other mbuna will act as so called "dithers". This isn't a community tank its a biotope tank you want fish for the most part from the same region. Dithers are normally used for american cichlids and act as a "common enemy" to keep the parents from killing eachother. It dosen't really apply to africans because they are harem breeders. So to answer your question... You could put syno, pictus, or clown loaches but for the most part thats it. I would increase the number of mbuna you already have :wink: .


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

The Simster, you have multiple threads going and are receiving the exact same advice in them all.

Your stock list is key to the success of your tank. It's already pretty questionable, and your considerations for further stocking aren't looking any better.

What is it you aren't understanding?

Have you taken a look at the needs and requirements of all these fish you are wanting to house together? The profile section is great for this. You can peruse the dietary needs, water requirements, as well as breeding habits of the fish you are considering.


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## TheSimster (Jul 30, 2009)

I am going to get more mbuna, and you haven't said anything I didn't already know. You also never said I couldn't get an American.


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## TheSimster (Jul 30, 2009)

I'm going to get more zebras and yellow labs to calm them. And I'll hold off on the kenyi.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

TheSimster said:


> I am going to get more mbuna, and you haven't said anything I didn't already know. You also never said I couldn't get an American.


But you're all over the place with wanting to add this fish and that fish, none of which are going t help your current aggression problems, which, by the way, are being addressed in multiple threads!

In one thread, you've gone from wanting to add dithers (which could be anything but not usually more cichlids) to clown loaches to firemouths.

Meanwhile, for those of us who follow your threads, we know that the tank is about to blow up on you as it is.

Your best bet right now is to decide what you really want to keep in this tank. So far, you have mbuna, but not the best stocklist for your tank size. Fix that first, then worry about adding more fish.

Regardless, I would not mix cichlids from different regions as a new hobbyist.

Slow down. Read a bit. Continue to ask questions, but please listen to what everyone is trying to tell you...

The worse mistakes you will make with a cichlid tank will be the ones you make in a hurry... :thumb:


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## steelers fan (Jun 26, 2009)

=D> =D> =D>


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## TheSimster (Jul 30, 2009)

You keep saying that I'm not listening to your advice, but then maybe you aren't reading what I'm writing. I was told multiple times to get more yellow labs, so I said I will. I was also told to get 1m:2f for the red zebras, I said I was going to do this also. I have a 29 now and everyone plus all websites say I need at least a 55, so I'm getting a 55. And maybe I misunderstood what 'dither' meant but I just want some nice fish besides the mbuna and I've read that a red fin shark and clown loach can be kept with them. Finally, I was just asking if its possible for a NW cichlid to be kept, not that I actually was going to get one.

As far as where I'm going with the tank, I just said that above. A mbuna tank with 2-3 other nice fish.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I think since we are now talking about a 55G it would be either 3 species with 1m:4f each or all male.

Since it sounds like you want to keep all your existing fish, then apparently it's all male.

Just want to be sure the advice got transitioned to the new tank size and all male plans.


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## TheSimster (Jul 30, 2009)

Out of curiosity, what would happen if there would be a female in the tank?


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## kodyboy (Dec 9, 2007)

if a female is in there the males get far rowdier and she would get horribly harrased. 
From looking at this and other posts you should clearly decide which three african species that you want to keep (mbuna) and then go from there. From what I can tell you really want yellow labs and red zebras, you just need to pick a third mbuna. We are here trying to help you not trying to be annoying


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## TheSimster (Jul 30, 2009)

I know, its just that I want my tank to look varied. I don't want just three species. I'm gonna get all males. But if I have an all male tank does that mean that I should get ALL males or just males of the species which I only want one. I have been told and seen many times that zebras need 1m:2f. Should I still get that ratio if I have all males. The same goes for yellow labs.


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## Afishionado (Jun 6, 2006)

All male means only males. And in a 55g mbuna tank it probably means 1 per species. If there are females present even males of other species will want to mate with them, resulting in more male-male agression, not to mention extreme pressure on the females... resulting in cross-breeding, deaths, and a disharmonious, no-fun tank to look at. Even without females though male mbuna may not get along (and their idea of not getting along is gnawing each other literally to death). The way to manage male mbuna is with several females per male (and to avoid cross-breeding issues, this rule should be respected for each species kept).

An all-male tank is not a simple thing to accomplish, especially with mbuna. If you're buying them as juvies you can't reliably know which gender they are, and need to resign yourself to getting several of each then have the discipline to return the excess fish once a male is confirmed. Even then, potentially serious agression problems may arise. It's just not a concept I'm a fan of and certainly not one I would recommend to someone starting out with African cichlids. Lots of people start out wanting their African Cichlid tank to look like a coral reef with many different species of fish, each one with it's own brilliant color pattern. You need to get over that. African cichlids are African cichlids; colourful yes, active definitely, but reef fish no. (Frankly, that utopic panoply of wonderfully diverse and colourful fish swarming about playfully is not nearly as attainable in a saltwater tank as many novices might imagine either.)

Pardon me for saying so, but when someone is this eager to push the envelope from the get-go it usually means they're going to do whatever they want regardless of the advice received. Some people just have to see for themselves that something won't work to believe it. I just hope you are one of the ones who learn better from it and stick around to enjoy the hobby with us. Too many get disappointed by the fish not conforming to what they envisionned and give up in frustration... (And I'll step off my podium for a second to admit that we were all starting out with cichlids at some point and many of us did a little wishful thinking of our own - and learned our lessons, which we're just trying to pass on to save others trouble.)

Good luck with the decisions,


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## TheSimster (Jul 30, 2009)

Afishionado said:


> An all-male tank is not a simple thing to accomplish, especially with mbuna.


Nevertheless, it is possible. I will try to achieve that possibility.

I want to thank you Afishionado, for your informative and very helpful answer.


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## Afishionado (Jun 6, 2006)

You're welcome.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

TheSimster said:


> I'm gonna get all males. But if I have an all male tank does that mean that I should get ALL males or just males of the species which I only want one. I have been told and seen many times that zebras need 1m:2f. Should I still get that ratio if I have all males.


*All male means ALL MALE. *

It also means NOT choosing two males from species that look overly similar to each other, and NOT having two males of the same species.

You can't have some breeding groups of some species and then throw in extra males of other species without intensifying your aggression level and hybridization risk.

Do you actually _HAVE_ the 55G in your possession? Or are these fish still in the 29G tank?

I"m asking because this comment is a bit contradictory from your other posts...



> I have a 29 now and everyone plus all websites say I need at least a 55, so I'm getting a 55.


_I would not add any fish at all until you have the 55G tank up and fully cycled!_

I would also do a bit of reading through the forums here and determine what type cichlids I really wanted to keep before moving forward, but the ones you have right now really need the larger tank ASAP.

Afishionado is right. We are trying to prevent you from making mistakes. That's it. But if you don't work with the advice we're trying to give you, we start to feel as if we're wasting our time. When that happens, people stop responding, and it really sounds like you need help.

The only thing you need to rush about right now is getting the fish that you already have into a larger tank before they kill each other. :thumb:


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## TheSimster (Jul 30, 2009)

That is exactly what I've been doing for the past couple of days.


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## TheSimster (Jul 30, 2009)

Also, I just found this video on youtube which is a african cichlid tank with one angelfish. According to the owner, he had them together in the tank for years without a problem. This would suggest that it is possible to keep at least Angelfish in a tank with higher-than-normal Ph for NW cichlids.

This is in conjunction with my previous question if I could keep NW's with Mbuna.


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## Afishionado (Jun 6, 2006)

Nothing is impossible, there are just varying degrees of impropability. There are definitely examples of mixes that shouldn't work but somehow do. There are many, many more cases of bad mixes that end up in failure. You have to ask yourself what you want your chances of success to be (keeping in mind the expense and trouble you're going to). This is looking at it strictly from your perspective. Some may add that knowingly keeping mixes with a high chance of ending in failure together is irresponsible, and may constitute a form of cruelty.


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## Schneider (Jul 27, 2009)

New world cichlids tend to be less agile and slower responding than old world cichlids. This is why it is not a great idea to mix these two groups. In most cases the new world cichlids simply are not equipped to defend themselves if conflicts occur-most of the time they do when you keep cichlids. If you watch a smartly stocked mbuna tank for a while you would notice that the fish that are chased by the more dominant individuals get away unharmed a large percentage of the time. An angelfish would be dead in its tracks if your RZ was offended by it-absolutely no chance of escape. Make no mistake, mbuna have formidable talents and will destroy any fish they think is a threat to their territories so long as they believe they can win. Other various schooling fish would be doomed to a life of constant stress from not being able to stay out of territories. What do you have against mbuna anyhow? With your reluctance to keep mbuna as dither fish for mbuna it makes me amazed that you have mbuna at all. There are so many mbuna species to choose from, so variety cannot be an issue. In case you are wondering, I have an all male, mixed mbuna Malawi hap 180 tank. It is not an easy tank to manage. I have to trade certain fish with the LFS from time to time to stop things from getting too out of hand. Also requires you to OBSERVE your fish regularly to find out who your troublemakers are. I did the all male tank because I didn't want fry.


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## steelers fan (Jun 26, 2009)

an all male tank _is_ rather easy you just need to be on top of things and weed out the females as you go...takes a long time usually but is not a hard thing to do


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I have read many horror stories about putting angels in with mbuna. Mbuna are fin-nippers and angels are slow moving with long fins.

I would not do it anyway because of the different water requirements. I don't like to ask my fish to acclimate when I don't have to, LOL.


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## TheSimster (Jul 30, 2009)

I have nothing against mbuna at all, to the contrary I like them a lot. It's like a mushroom soup. I like mushrooms, but I also like to have some carrots and onions in there. And I don't want a Angel, but maybe an Acara or Firemouth. I am trying to have an all male tank. I know for sure the RZ is male (he actually calmed down a little, I think he was acting up before because of the new fish I introduced) and I'm in middle of researching how to sex my other fish.


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## emptyhead (Apr 16, 2007)

TheSimster said:


> I have nothing against mbuna at all, to the contrary I like them a lot. It's like a mushroom soup. I like mushrooms, but I also like to have some carrots and onions in there. And I don't want a Angel, but maybe an Acara or Firemouth. I am trying to have an all male tank. I know for sure the RZ is male (he actually calmed down a little, I think he was acting up before because of the new fish I introduced) and I'm in middle of researching how to sex my other fish.


Sure, mushroom soup is good, but who wants a big slice of watermelon in their mushroom soup?

These cichlids will not mix well together. Acara and meeki are much lest robust than your mbuna.

If you want carrots and onions in your mushroom soup, then add some peacocks or small malawi haps or syno cats.

We are just trying to tell you what recipes tend to work. You can add any ingredients you want and experiment, but the result may ruin your appetite.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

emptyhead said:


> Sure, mushroom soup is good, but who wants a big slice of watermelon in their mushroom soup?


 :lol:

TheSimster, we understand, and we have been there. Keep trying for what you want, and keep asking. Just try to apply the reasons we provide for problems with one mix to other, similar scenarios.


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## TheSimster (Jul 30, 2009)

Just thought I should update, I'm geting a 55 gallon tommorow and plan to move all my current mbuna into it plus get at least four more for a total of 10 malawi's. I also plan to get a red fin shark, a clown loach ( a small one and since they grow at a snails pace from what I've heard I won't have to worry about finding someone to give it to for a while), and maybe two tin barbs but I'm still doing research on that. Thats all for now but I'll see what happens.


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