# what is causing fish death?



## stargazer86 (Oct 24, 2011)

hi,

i have a 38 gallon tank, set up about 2 months.

got 4 adult red top zebras + 1 yellow lab after 2 weeks cycling

then added the following 1 to 1.5 weeks apart from each other: 2 juvenile giraffes, 2 juvenile jewels, 3 orange cichlids.

all was good until...

last monday my temp shot up to 30!!! i usually keep it at 25. i lowered the temp over the next 48 hours and the fish seemed fine.

tuesday i removed (my BIGGEST regret) and tossed out my 2 filter pads from my penguins and put in new ones.

wedns temp was up to 28 again! couldnt figure why. finally, reasoned it must be either that the heater is broken ( i forgot to turn it off during water change and it is fully submersible) or the fish keep banging into it (it was hanging loose because the holder wouldn`t stick to the glass).

wedns also my dominant male red top zebra beat the subdominant male to near death. i was sold the set as 3 females and 1 male, but the tank they came from was filled with 12 others so i think the subdominant pretended to be female until he came to my empty tank. i dipped the poor guy in salt water but he died by monday.

sat i cleaned the glass (a mistake again) with a regular (albeit new) sponge. i tried to release as little of the algea etc into the water as was humanly possible. but a little did get dispersed.

sunday, my giraffe cichlid dashed across the tank, hit the glass with a loud sound and died instantly, mouth open  i couldnt think wth was wrong with him.

sunday night, my juveile yellow lab (which had begun spitting out food by thursday and had stopped eating completely by sat) just swam around happy for 10 mins, then lay sideways in the tank gravel and died.

both my giraffe and my yellow lab displayed this weird spasm/twitching motion prior to death and all my fish did ALOT of flashing during this week... i just thought it was the temp fluctuation until the deaths.

sunday evening, i did a 30% water change thinking maybe nitrate was the problem ( it was close to 20). immediately after the water change my orange cichlids kept flashing, my red top zebras and jewels not at all.

now none of them are flashing anymore.

after the water change, i noticed the other giraffe cichlid also does the spasm/twitching like he is having a seizure or is being electricuted. he also is not so eager to eat. :S my male orange cichlid also did that until sunday but has since stopped.

what is/was the problem and how can i avoid this situation in the future? i cant figure out what the culprit is, and thats scary. I love my fish and don`t want them to suffer 

my current water parameters are:

nitrite 0 
ammonia 0
nitrate 10 or less
GH 60-80 (raising this slowly as well, its usually 80-100)
KH 180
pH 7.2 (i`m working on raising this slowly, but i`m sure its due to the water change, because prior to testing it was 7.5)
temp 24, this morning 25 (temp fluctuated over night cause it was very cold, this early morning it was 25.5 now its 25 sharp).

food:

i gave them 2 feedings of pellets daily + 1 feeding of brine shrimp+omega (i bought it from J & L aquatics)

i know some people say the yellow lab should get veggie diet but he did not like anything, (not even the pellets), he only ate brine shrimp, until the last few days. i`m wondering if thats what killed him.

since the first death, i freaked out, and started giving 1 feeding of pellets per day and no brine shrimp. i also tried chopped cucumber, chopped lettuce, cooked/crushed peas...they just dont like any of it. spit all of it back out.

funny thing is i also have 3 fry and they seem to be doing well despite all of this. ithought they were more likely to suffer than my more mature fish.


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## stargazer86 (Oct 24, 2011)

forgot to mention i was only able to stabilize my temperature to 24C by sunday morning. from wedns to sunday it was fluctuating between 28 and 26. sat it fell to 23. i fixed the heater to the wall sat evening, intending to get a new heater next day but since they its been stable ,so i think it was the fish banging into it and swimming near it.


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## QHgal (May 18, 2006)

So, in a 38 gal tank you have

4 red top Zebra
1 yellow lab
2 juvenile giraffes (probably venustus) 
2 juvenile jewels 
3 orange cichlids

WOW, is all I can say. Did you do any research before you put all of these highly aggressive fish in a small tank??? The only fish in your group that would be ok long term in that tank would have been the yellow lab, all of the other fish are too large and too aggressive in that tank. MAYBE they're alright right now as juvies, but that's not going to last very long...

I'd say what killed them this time is removing the filter pads. You removed your bacteria colony and now the tank is probably re-cycling. Please do some research on species that will fit in this size tank, take everyone back to the store and buy the proper species.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

1. Labs are vegetarians, they are primarily carnivores, eating insect larvae and crustaceans they pick from the rocks.

2. There is nothing wrong with getting the algae in the aquarium. I scrape it off with a exacto blade, and it mostly all ends up in the aquarium. After doing this for some 25 years, I've never had an issue.

3. Where did you get this sponge that you cleaned the glass with? If it wasn't from an aquarium store, many of the dollar store, walmart etc. sponges will have a chemical in them, that could have harmed some of the fish.

4. The spitting out the food is a common sign of bloat. Fish don't always have to swell with bloat, though it can be a common symptom. Bloat can be caused by a number of stressors, including rapid temperature fluctations, or aggression. Watch the other fish for similar symptoms, coughing, spitting out food, white feces.

5. A 38 gallon aquarium isn't suitable for almost any of your fish long-term.

Given the tests presented, I doubt the tank is currently recycling... you would expect higher readings than given, assuming the test kits are accurate. It had crossed my mind though. Unfortunately many LFS don't try and educate people, or give them the wrong information. At least the poster has come here now to try and help his/her fish, so instead of berating them for their past mistakes, giving them friendly guidance might be more helpful.


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## nmcichlid-aholic (Mar 23, 2011)

Are you using any conditioning agents when doing your water changes (Prime, etc)? My guess as to why all the deaths is simply due to the general instability of the tank. All the fluctuations in temperature, pH going up and down, and possibly introducing chemicals during cleaning (from the sponge or water, or both) can cause the fish to show some or all of the symptoms you describe. Stability is of the utmost importance in an aquarium. Change your filter pads every 6 weeks our so, rinsing them in removed TANK water in between, and schedule it so you only change 1 of the 2 each time (alternate filters). I like to use 5 gallon buckets for water changes, filling the buckets with the new water so I can get the temperature and pH right, and add conditioner before putting the water in the tank. That way, the fish aren't shocked by the difference from the water that was taken out.

Yes, your stock list could use some work because most will be too big long term, but for now just concentrate on getting a routine down that creates a stable environment for them. After you've got the hang of that, you can start to refine your stock. Good luck!


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## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

as Fogelhund pointed ouy it may be the sponge,I got one from orange depot one time and I,m glad I at least read the wrapping before using it,"NOT FOR AQUARIUM USE"

the heater may also be the cause,not the temperature changes,but from electrocution,that might explain your venustus swimming into the side of the tank


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

There are two things that I would do right away.
1. Not use that sponge again in your aquarium.
2. Throw out that heater and buy a new one.

After that I'd be on the look out for signs of bloat or other illnesses as others have pointed out. Rapid temperature fluctuations will shock the immune system of fish and make them more susceptible to many potential infections.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

newforestrob said:


> as Fogelhund pointed ouy it may be the sponge,I got one from orange depot one time and I,m glad I at least read the wrapping before using it,"NOT FOR AQUARIUM USE"
> 
> the heater may also be the cause,not the temperature changes,but from electrocution,that might explain your venustus swimming into the side of the tank


Electrocution was the first thing I thought of as well in reference to the venustus. The very first thing I did before setting up my 75g was to pull out my old wall socket and replace with a GFCI.


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## stargazer86 (Oct 24, 2011)

Thanks everyone for your quick replies and comments.
- Ok so to start from the top and reply to all your postsÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ this is my starter cichlid tank and we have already discussed getting a 70 gallon or lager for our family room where these fish will be placed once they get bigger, so they will not be staying in this tank long term. I also have not seen any aggression from them, which I found surprising, since I expected a lot more territorial fights in my tank. The only aggressor was my superdominant male red top zebra and I have managed to control the worst part of his behavior for now. Regardless, I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t plan on keeping them in this tank for ever. I`ve definitely seen a lot more crowded tanks. The tank I got the orange cichlids from was a 20 gallon FILLED with these fish to the point that you could barely see the water they were swimming in, and the red top zebras I got from a guy who kept 12 of them with about 30 or 40 other fish of more aggressive nature, I believe he also had some empresses (huge like 4-5 inches long)Ã¢â‚¬Â¦.so when I looked at my nearly empty tank, I thought my fish had way more room to swim in than their previous homesÃ¢â‚¬Â¦.also a couple of guys who keep cichlids have told me to fill it with more fish rather than less because apparently having too few cichlids increases dominance and aggression of one or two.
Is that true or not? I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t know, i`ve only heard this from several cichlid keepers.

regarding researching these fish...

when i was thinking of getting the red top zebras I did research online and it said aggression is mild. I asked the owner and he also said they were not aggressive from his experience. 
my yellow lab was the sweetest fish, he was completely harmless and came from the same tank as the red top zebras so they got along fairly well. 
i was worried about the orange cichlids and the owner and i agreed that if there was a problem i`d bring them back but so far my red top zebra really likes the female (which i believe is actually an orange-red top hybrid) and the other male and female orange are just doing their own little thing. 
sometiems my giraffe and jewel cichlids would nib at each other, but that was only if one of the males touched the other`s female. 
I bought all the fish on condition that i would return them if there was any sort of problem and they didnt have any so i kept them.

also i`ve been told most cichlids show some aggression of some sort. The owner of the orange cichlids told me they fought among themselves unless there is a fish that is alone then they may show aggression towards it. i told him i keep everything in pairs or more, and he said i should be ok. The guy with the red top zebras said they usually pick on each other not other types of fish even though his tank had a lot of what i thought would be aggressive fish.

- Fogelhund, Did you mean labs are or are not vegetarians? given what you say is their diet what is a good food choice? i have new life spectrum pellets right now.
- Good to know the algae itself is not a problem. 
- The sponge, regrettably, came from the grocery store or smth. So yes, thatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s what I feared! 
- Ok I`ve been watching them every night since. No one has white or suspicious looking feces, or a swollen stomach which is why I didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t think it was bloat. Thank you for that info.

- Regarding the conditioner, I have bought prime but have not used it yet, as I have a naturafin conditioner that I used for many years with my gold fish and it worked very well. However, I had read about prime so I asked about it in the aquarium store and the guy highly recommended it so I bought it to use after the naturafin runs out.
- Yes I use a 5 gallon bucket that I never put chemicals in and I test the temp as well and put in salts and buffers etc before putting the water in the tank. I did no test GH/KH/pH because the container said add X amount per Y gallons, but i`ve noticed that never adds up to parameters I have in my tank water so I will start testing those paramters in my bucket from now on as well. But usually the temp of the water I put in is 2 degrees less than what is in the tank, but I figured since I usually only do a 10% water change every 5 days, the new water can`t fluctuate the temp that much, maybe half a degrees at most. Unfortunatley my temp fluctuation started after I forgot to turn off my heater before the water change. I suspect that I completely screwed up the heater. 
- The temp is back to just under 25, which is pretty much where it has been the past 2 days. I will be buying a heater, probably tmw. But can I just ask, is it normal to have temp fluctuations by 1 degrees between day and night? Or is a proper heater supposed to keep the temp at exactly the same regardless of the room temperature or fluctuations in room temperature?
- As a general rule in my house, it gets cooler towards the night, reaching coolest point maybe around 4 or 5, then it starts going back up to warmest point by mid-day. I keep my room door closed because our house is 2 stories, with a really high ceiling and bedrooms on second floor, so if I leave the door open this crazy cold current rushes in all day and night making the room really chilly. My tank is on the wall that does not have any windows (2 of my walls do but I have long thick curtains that keep the room covered)

- As for the new heater, I am deciding between 2 heaters, ebo jager and visitherm. I`m a bit hesitant with the second cause i`ve read that it doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t always reach the temp you set it too. I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t know if thatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s true or if people just donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t know how to operate the heater properly. These are the choices of heaters available at the aquarium store (any recommendations is appreciated):

http://www.jlaquatics.com/category/32/H ... eters.html

- there are some others that I could get from petland or petsmart and such but this place is supposed to sell aquarium supplies so I thought they may have a better selection(?)..

The heater isn`t broken or cracked but i`m wondering, is there a possibility that my fish may get electrocuted by simply touching too close to the heater? 

- I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t have a GFCI, and I`m seriously intimidated by electric circuits and so on... I could get my 
brother to do that for me, if it will help avoid electrocution of my poor fish. Will it?

thanks for all of your help!


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## stargazer86 (Oct 24, 2011)

ahh thats 4 or 5 am llol


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Labs are* NOT* vegetarians.

If you stick your hand in the tank, and don't feel an electrical current, chances are pretty high the fish don't either.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

A 36" tank is good for those fish for a quarantine period of three weeks and if most of them are very small, you might stretch it out to several months. Like a fry grow-out tank.

Long term (say in six months) the 36" tank should work for the lab or the pair of jewels but the others need a bigger tank.

The proper level of overcrowding for a 36" tank would be 1m:4f of a single, dwarf mbuna species. For a 70G assuming 48" x 12" you would want 3 species that mature at 6" or less, 1m:4f of each (depending on the species) for the proper level of overcrowding.

The venustus will need a 72" tank. Gallons are not too important, but the longer the tank the better.

The zebras are adult now, so for them you want the bigger tank now. Yes, you will see lots of tanks crammed with fish but you often don't know how many years they have been together or how many deaths/month are happening.

You did experience the zebra aggression for yourself, so you have seen what can happen. Separation is good.

Malawi are harem breeders so for most fish you want 1m:4f or more to spread the male aggression across a large number of females. In a pair the male is likely to kill the female.

Regarding getting different advice from different people, that absolutely will happen. Choose your advisor based on long experience and healthy fish, and stick with him/her. Not someone who sells fish. Double checking with other groups invariably results in conflicting advice.


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## QHgal (May 18, 2006)

Unless that "bigger tank for the living room" is going to be a 125 gal or bigger, the venustus has GOT to go back. Mbuna are harem breeders, and you have got to get your proper ratios, or your going to have fights and deaths. The more aggressive the species, the larger the ratio needs to be. Since the red tops are adults, they need a bigger tank now, and the others are going to need one pretty quick as well. Yes, you want to overstock, but in a properly sized tank with compatible species. Most cichlid tanks that are overcrowded have been carefully planned so you have fish that won't overlap territory, don't look similar and won't readily crossbreed. Don't buy cichlids on a whim, you must do your research, decide ahead of time which species you want and how many you need of each. Also, starting with a smaller tank, with future plans to get a bigger tank can end up in disaster. Usually, the fish grow faster than you think, or they get territorial and mean sooner than you think and fights break out. Know what size tank your going to end up with, and then pick and choose your compatible species to fill that tank. Use the 38 gal for a grow out tank. I have a 20 long just for that purpose. I purchased a dozen saulosi from a breeder, but they were barely an inch long. No way I was putting them in the 125 with my adults, so they went in the 20 long for 2 months to grow up. Once they went in the big tank, then the 20 long became a fry grow out tank, now full of 1/2 inch maingano fry.

I'd have to agree that your death problems probably stemmed from the non-aquarium sponge. I've had pretty good results from the magnetic aquarium cleaner. If you are getting excessive algae, that's usually a sign that there is excess food or your nitrates/nitrites are too high. My temps will fluctuate 1-3 degrees between day and night, that's fairly common. When you get your bigger tank, try to do 2 heaters, both rated for a tank SMALLER than the one you have. That way, if one of your heaters malfunction, it won't overheat your tank. I've got two in the 125, both rated for up to 90 gallons.


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## swamphntr (Oct 21, 2011)

Sorry to hear about your troubles.

I wanted to chime in because I have experienced much of the same mis information out there. In fact it is much more common to hear what stargazer has relayed than what you hear on this forum. A few examples

I had one guy tell me no substrate only live coral and my start up stocking was 25 fish of whatever specie I liked. My end goal on this mans plan was 100 fish in a 55 gal. In his words species didnt matter size didnt matter it was all about lots of holes in the coral structure and so many fish they didnt compete. I left his store without buying as much as a fish net.

Then there is the favorite big chain advice. Use this chemical and that chemical bring some water back tomorrow and we will sell you any combination of Africans you wish. As long as they are Africans they will do fine together.

There actually is one decent fish guy in my town at least in term of set up. He qualified much of what I read here and took the time to explain to me why it was well worth following the direction on this forum to a tee. This is the route I am trying to take. However much like yourself, I am constantly bombarded with opposing thought and occasionally take the bait and make a mistake. My recent fish order is a prime example. All parameters of my set up were discussed and the breeder made no suggestion that I might consider a larger tank before my shipment.

Not to highjack your thread here. But I wanted to add my similar experience and take a minute to thank the experienced folks here that straighten these local fish store nightmares out. I know it has got to get old answering which fish can go with what fish in what tank questions every day.


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## stargazer86 (Oct 24, 2011)

re; ELECTRIC CURRENT
hm ye there is no electric current. My heater has been fine for the past week (kept the same temperature +/- 1 degree between day and night). I did buy another one but I think ill hold off putting that in for a while...

LABS:
right, not vegetarians. I cant believe how many times i`ve heard people saying they are vegetarians :S

JIRAFFE:
I actually hadnt remembered this at all, but I happen to know a guy with a 165 gallon cichlid tank and in fact he has a couple of giraffes in there. i can trade one or a few of my fish with some of his smaller ones.

CROWDING:
when you say proper level of crowding, does that mean I can not put any other fish in there (i`ve read somewhere on this forum that some sharks or pleco can be placed in the tank with cichlids) or that no other cichlids can be put in with that amount of cichlids. for example, for my 38 gallon or 40 gallon, whatever it is, can i keep 1m:4f cichlids and try mixing in other fish or no? same for the bigger tank?

2 of the zebras are, but i dont know whats happening with my other female, ever since i got her, even before i bought any other fish, she refused to eat. I think she ate when i wasnt looking, cause i doubt its possible to live so long without eating at all. but she has shrunk in size visibly and also in color (the color is very faint). she looks like a juvenile red top now, the same size as my jewels! and then all of a sudden this morning she was begging me for food, so i gave her some and she kept asking for more...so i guess she has decided she is small enough now. I cant figure out why she did that though? was it because of the other female or the male? the other fish in my tank never bother her, in fact she likes to hang around with the others but stays away from the male and female red top zebra 
could this be because I`m 2 females short of the heram? 
another possibility is that the 3 fry i saw around the tank were hers. i really cant be sure, because they appeared a week after i got the fish and prior to that i didnt pay attention to the mouth or jaw area, and even if i had, i`d never had personal experience with these cichlids so i doubt i would have picked up on it. The fry have been out for about a month now but she didnt come up with the others to eat until this morning.

Also, with the jewels, i have 2 (1m:1f). they are very happy together. A cichlid care site said they are monogamous and that i`ll know if the pair i`ve chosen are compatible by how well they get along, almost immediately. Is this true? my pair are inseperable. lol.

COMPATIBILITY:
I have found an african cichlid compatibility chart, after reading your comments, in an effort to figure out how i can `fix`my tank, so to speak lol. can you guys tell me if this is an accurate chart?

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/cichlidcha ... hartd.html

yes, i decided not to listen to the sellers when one of them insisted the jewels were american cichlids , whereas i was pretty sure they were africans...

thankfully so far I have not had excessive algae I just wanted the glass to be crystal clear lol. I`m a littly picky with that sort of stuff. 

I`m happy to say the fish are all happy and alive and healthy, a week later.

haha thats ok swamphntr, you`re not hijacking lol.


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## brinkles (Jan 30, 2011)

I'd keep the jewels in the 38 by themselves. They are supposed to get pretty mean when they decide to spawn. The rest of your fish are going to have a tough time in a 36" tank as they grow. 
The compatibility chart looks pretty good, but some genera vary in aggression, so it's best to ask people who have experience with them. For example, I have yellow labs and lab sp. "hongi", and they behave very differently.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I've heard some feel there are flaws in that compatability chart...I would not use it.

For a 36" tank, one species of dwarf mbuna is the limit for cichlids. Can't think of a shark that would fit. You could add a bristlenose pleco and a trio of Synodontis lucipinnis.


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