# Skinny Bolivian Ram - sickness?



## LilGills (May 18, 2012)

*I posted this in another area, but haven't had any replies, so I'm copying it here. Any advice will be welcome!*

Hello to all of you beautiful fishy people! I've been stalking this site for months now - I love it and I've learned so much! Now I'm having a problem, so I've finally registered. I'm hoping that someone might be able help me diagnose and treat (if necessary) one or all of my little Bolivian Rams. I'm not sure if this is a disease yet, so if this is in the wrong forum, I apologize and will move it over there.

I'm fairly new to aquaria, and these are my first Cichlids. After loads of research, I brought 4 little Bolivian Rams home 2 weeks ago. They settled right in, and all have grown a bit and plumped up since coming to live with me - all except one, and he's the one that I'm worried about!










He's so skinny! Poor little thing. . .
All of them are about 1.5 inches long - from tip to tip - but this one has been my 'runt' since day 1. He's slightly smaller than the others, and at the bottom of the newly-establishing hierarchy. Aside from his scrawny tummy and small size, the only other thing that sets him apart from the others is that his stripes are very obviously darker. I've read that this can be a sign of stress, or simply his way of letting the bigger fish know that he's submissive. Otherwise, he swims with the others, scraps with them at mealtimes, and eats well. There is no hiding, flashing, heavy respiration - he behaves in every way like the other three, and isn't being targeted or picked on any more than the others as they establish their territories. I feed my whole tank a combination of flake food (which they all eat with no problems), and many different types of wet-frozen foods, including: bloodworm, mysis, krill, brine, Daphna. . . I also regularly toss in blanched veggies - which the rams are iffy about eating, but everyone else loves! I've seen him 'chew' his food for a moment or two and then spit it out again - the others do this too, but he does it more often. I'm not sure if it applies, but I thought I'd throw that in there. Still, he actually EATS more of it than he spits . . . and usually will go back for a smaller bite after spitting out a bigger one. I've been watching for feces, but haven't been able to catch him in the act, so to speak, so I have no idea about that. As for his vent. . . I can't even see it (assuming this one is a male?) - but there definitely aren't any visible worms there.

For reference, here is an image of one of the others - they all look healthy by comparison:










The coloration on these photos has been intensified by the flash, which I used to get very clear shots. The other 3 have rounded tummies.

Here is an image of the tank where they live, along with that will show you more truthfully their actual coloration:










A cropped image - my scrawny stripey guy is at the far left:










This is a fully cycled 29 gallon TALL tank. Ammonia, nitrite, phosphates all at 0, and nitrate hangs around 2.5ppm. PH sits at 7.6, Gh is 6, and Kh is super low at 2dgh, temperature is usually between 77-78 - a bit low for the rams. It is currently stocked with the 4 Bolivian Rams, 5 Kuhli Loaches, 2 adult Mollies and 6 Molly fry (the mollies will soon be moving into their own system with water hardness adjusted for their preferences). I also have a variety of snail life in there 

I have a 10g hospital tank that I can move him into if he needs to be kept on his own. Unfortunately, it was in use when they came home, so the Rams were never put into QT. :roll:

Thanks in advance for reading, and for any help and advice you can give me to keep this little guy (and his buddies) healthy and thriving.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

I suspect that he's got some internal parasites, and you'd best treat the whole tank. My favorite go-to gut cleaner is metronidazole, but praziquantel can do the trick. API's General Cure has both meds.

First thing is to stop feeding, do a large water change, and add Epsom salt- about 1 TBS per 5 gallons. This acts as a laxative, and with no food going in, you have a good chance of emptying the gut which seems to make the medicine much more effective. Follow package directions for dosing, but do at least three treatments over the course of a week. I recommend large water changes before each treatment, adding back in the Epsom to the new water.

After 5 days, resume feeding- but very lightly. Always perform another water change at the end of your treatment cycle. Hopefully the skinny ram will be able to enjoy his food after this.


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## LilGills (May 18, 2012)

Thank you so much for your reply! I was wondering if it could be a parasite problem. Loads of research brought me to Hexamita, and so I've gotten the feeling that this might be that, or something related.

GLAD you said General Cure by API, as that's the only thing that is available locally! I've already picked it up! It contains 250 mg Metronidazole and 75 mg Praziquantel per packet, and the dosage instructions are to use 1 packet per 10 gallons of water, repeat dose 48 hours later, then a 25% water change 48 hours after the 2nd dose, at which time treatment should be complete. You're saying I should do 3 doses 48 hours apart with a water change in between each? This makes me nervous, as I've read that Metronidazole can be tough on their systems - if you wouldn't mind explain this a bit more for me, I would REALLY appreciate it! I like to be 100% sure about things before tossing meds into my tanks!

Also, will I be able to SEE any visible signs to confirm this diagnosis once treatment has begun - aside from the hopeful outcome that he plumps up. Will there be. . . THINGS coming out of him, lol?

My gut reaction is to pull him into QT and treat him alone where I can monitor him and feed specifically with the intent of fattening him up before putting him back into the main tank. He is still eating - just not gaining! How much of a chance is there that every other fish in the tank is affected by this problem - he's the only one showing signs. . . I have several small fry (Mollies) in the community tank, and I'm a bit nervous about treating them if it isn't 100% necessary. Of course it would be better to treat before there is an obvious problem in the case of parasites, I guess. . .

As far as Epsom salt is concerned. . . is there a specifically for fish Epsom salt available (I didn't' see it at the fish shop), or is it okay to just use 'normal' for people Epsom salts in the tank?

Again, thank you SO much for your reply! I really appreciate your opinion, and will begin treatment asap!


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

LilGills said:


> You're saying I should do 3 doses 48 hours apart with a water change in between each? This makes me nervous, as I've read that Metronidazole can be tough on their systems - if you wouldn't mind explain this a bit more for me, I would REALLY appreciate it! I like to be 100% sure about things before tossing meds into my tanks!


I don't think metro is the drug you heard that about. In years of using metro for week long, daily dosing (not what I suggested for you, but it's common to dose metro at 250mg/10gal once a day for several days), even holding females and young fry show no signs of stress from the medication. I've never heard of metro being "tough on their systems"; though most if my experience is with African Rift lake cichlids. Back to your fish- yes- three treatments, three water changes, no food, plus Epsom.



> Also, will I be able to SEE any visible signs to confirm this diagnosis once treatment has begun - aside from the hopeful outcome that he plumps up. Will there be. . . THINGS coming out of him, lol?


 Sadly, no... it's a wait and see type of process.



> My gut reaction is to pull him into QT and treat him alone where I can monitor him and feed specifically with the intent of fattening him up before putting him back into the main tank. He is still eating - just not gaining! How much of a chance is there that every other fish in the tank is affected by this problem - he's the only one showing signs. . . I have several small fry (Mollies) in the community tank, and I'm a bit nervous about treating them if it isn't 100% necessary. Of course it would be better to treat before there is an obvious problem in the case of parasites, I guess. . .


Sadly- nope. You need to treat all of your fish- they are all carriers of whatever pathogen is affecting your skinny ram. But- because they are not stressed as much as the sub-dom male, their immune systems can keep the bugs at a tolerable level. If you only treat the skinny one, he will be reinfected as soon as he's reintroduced. After the treatment, you could remove him and fatten him up, but I'm wondering if he needs a new home anyway...



> As far as Epsom salt is concerned. . . is there a specifically for fish Epsom salt available (I didn't' see it at the fish shop), or is it okay to just use 'normal' for people Epsom salts in the tank?


 Just the regular Epsom you can buy at any pharmacy or Walmart. It's the same stuff- MgSO4- as long as there are no added scents/moisturizers. But that type of product is usually labeled as bath salt or foot soak, etc.


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## LilGills (May 18, 2012)

Again, sincere thanks for taking the time to walk me through this!

Treating the tank makes sense, and as long as the fry will be okay with it - I am, too. Either way, the infection/infestation could kill them, so I'd have to do it anyway. I had 100% Epsom here in the house, and had already gotten the medication, so treatment is underway as I type this, though I have another question for you, if you don't mind. . .

I understand why Mr.Skinny would be the first showing signs (assuming he brought it into the tank with him 2 weeks ago when I purchased him), being the smallest and weakest. . . but I AM wondering why you said that he might need a new home anyway? Please forgive me - I am very new to all of this, and just trying to understand. Assuming that he responds to treatment and fills out. . . why do you think he'll need a new home? Moving him isn't a problem, I have other tanks with very stable parameters and low nitrates that I can put him into on his own, if it is necessary for his well being. I made sure of this before bringing 4 home in the first place. He IS the lowest in the chain of command, but. . . everyone seems to get along well enough together thus far. Do you think he will be bullied in the future? Or do you feel it is an issue with tank size?

Thanks again for all of your help - I appreciate it!


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

I forgot that you'd only had them for two weeks and the stress is likely from moving/acclimating more than being bullied. So, sure- he may be perfectly fine after this. Now that you've reminded me, I'd leave him in the tank for fattening up after the treatment, because moving him out and then back in would be more stressful for him. I think once you get rid of the bad bugs, he'll start gaining bulk.


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## LilGills (May 18, 2012)

Ahhhh! I love it when people say EXACTLY what I want to hear!  I'm glad because it would be sad if he couldn't live with his girlfriends. We'll just see where we end up from here, and hopefully all will be well. Thanks again for your advice - Wish us luck!


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## LilGills (May 18, 2012)

Just thought I'd do a follow up in the hopes that this thred is able to help someone else in the same situation as I was! I did end up moving him into a QT tank all alone for treatment with API's General Cure. I have several species in the main tank, and some of those might not have liked this med so well. After running the treatment through, I kept him on in there for a while - until he started showing signs of growth. He has been back in the community tank for some time now, and thriving! My little boy is actually #1 in the hierarchy, and doing great! Everything I've read points in the direction of this having been a protozoa of some kind. . . this med did the trick! I'm keeping an eye on everyone in the tank, and will do so indefinitely, but it seems that this problem was only affecting him. Doesn't mean that the others aren't carriers, so if at any time their immune systems weaken, it could rear it's ugly head again. So far, so good - and I'm hoping that it stays gone!

Thanks again for your help and guidance in this situation!


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