# Is this Ich?



## Lindsey Dindsey (Jul 14, 2004)

Last weekend I bought some new fish. They all seemed to be doing fine until yesterday I noticed the Exochochromis rubbing on the rocks. I do not see any white spots on him or anything. My husband said he thinks one of the new peacocks did that as well. This was not after a water change or anything like that. Is this most likely ich or could it be something else? I haven't dealt with ich for years and when I did, I saw white dots on the fish.


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## Lindsey Dindsey (Jul 14, 2004)

Forgot to add that the parameters are all good, no ammonia or nitrite, nitrates about 20ppm.


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## lotsofish (Feb 28, 2008)

I doubt the problem is ick. It could be a sign of parasites but unless they do it frequently, I wouldn't worry. Keep an eye on them and if the behavior happens a lot, treat the tank with an anti-parasite med.


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## Lindsey Dindsey (Jul 14, 2004)

Today I noticed that 3 or 4 fish are now doing this, and the Exo is doing it a lot more. So I decided to start the salt treatment. :?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Is the flashing (rubbing) focused on the gill area? Any redness?

You may be dealing with gill flukes. That's the most common illness that causes fish to flash and isn't usually visible. If this is what it is, I'd rather go the medication route than salt route, since it can be quite difficult to eradicate, even with meds.

How long has this tank been set up?

What is your normal tank maintenance routine?


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## Lindsey Dindsey (Jul 14, 2004)

The Exo does seem to be rubbibg near his gills but I don't really see any redness. What kind of meds do I use? I already started putting salt in, but I have only put 10 tablespooons. It is a 100 gallon tank.

The tank has been set up for years and I do weekly water changes of at least 25%. However, the problem is that I did not quarantine the new fish I got. :roll:


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## Lindsey Dindsey (Jul 14, 2004)

Well I went out today and found Jungle Parasite Clear, I hope that is a good one for Gill Flukes. I haven't put it in yet because I was concerned about the salt I added. Should I worry about the 10 tablespoons of aquarium salt I put in last night? And is there any specific treatment I need to do (like the outlined Clout treatment for bloat) or do I just drop in the meds and wait? Oh and can I still feed the fish?


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## drgold (Jul 9, 2006)

Prazipro (by Hikari) is excellent for flukes and not harsh like parasiteclear can be. It is also good for worming fish (I use it for new wild plecos).

I've also used ridich+ on fish that flash w/o spots along with the prazi. Some folks will say not to use a formalyn/malachite medication, but I haven't ever had a problem with it, even when treating tanks with fry. The combo of ridich and prazi should knock off any parasites quickly.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Jungle Parasite Clear should be fine. The ingredients are metronidazole and praziquantel (the main ingredient in PraziPro). It's one of the more mild medications for parasites on the market, not harsh at all.

The problem is, if you are dealing with gill flukes, you do need to treat the main tank, and gill flukes are very hard to eradicate, so I would recommend at least doubling the usual treatment regimen, and squeezing in lots of water changes. It's going to get expensive with a tank that size! (You can order large stock bottles of it on line and save yourself some cash.)

One treatment regimen consists of 3 doses (1 fizz tab per 10G of water) spaced 48 hours apart, with a 25% water change prior to the 2nd and 3rd dosage. For gill flukes, I would do 2 full treatment regimens, at least. You may even need to do a third.


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## Lindsey Dindsey (Jul 14, 2004)

Great, thanks. I was expecting to have to do it a couple of times. I only found two packs at Petsmart but I will look into ordering it online. So can I still feed them during treatment?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Yes, sorry, I didn't answer your previous question.

This is not the same as treating bloat, so there is no need to withhold food.

I would feed sparingly during any treatment, though. It's always a good idea to minimize waste while adding meds to a tank - I've never seen JPC cause water issues, but you just never know!


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## Lindsey Dindsey (Jul 14, 2004)

That's what I figured, I just wanted to be sure. Thanks a lot for all your help. I'm sure everyone here with (or without) sick fish appreciate all you do to help us, I know I do! :thumb:


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

No problem! My husband says I talk alot and letting it all out here gives him a bit of rest! :lol:

Keep us posted how things are going! Good luck!


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## Lindsey Dindsey (Jul 14, 2004)

Okay so I have done two treatments so far and they seem to be getting a little better. Still flashing but it seems like it's not as much. Maybe it's just wishful thinking but hopefully not.

However, today my power went out and I am not sure for how long. The temperature got down to 73 degrees.  The fish seem okay, I slowly got the temp back up. But should I be worried? I know that it could have damaged the bacteria but I checked and there are so far no ammonia or nitrites, and I will keep testing it often for a few days. Could several hours in cold water have had any ill effects on the fish themselves?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Any drastic temperature changes _can_ cause problems. That doesn't mean they will cause problems. :wink:

Cooling them down a bit never seems to affect them as adversely as heating them up...I had a thermostat get stuck on a heater one time and nearly boiled my fish. They wound up with ich, but it could have been worse, and I didn't lose a fish. Since you're already treating with a medication, I believe you should be fine.


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## Lindsey Dindsey (Jul 14, 2004)

Well, unfortunately today I got a reading of .25 nitrites. I wanted to do a good water change, but my tap water has some ammonia in it that usually disappears quickly after a WC but obviously I don't want to put extra ammonia in the tank when my bacteria colony is hurting.

Sooo, I had two fish in a quarantine tank for a couple of weeks, and that tank doesn't seem to be affected. Well, there hasn't been any ammonia or nitrites showing up anyway. I was not going to put those two fish in the tank until the main tank was healthy but I decided I would have to risk those two for the rest of my fish. So I used their water for a water change and moved the two fish and the filter to the main tank.

Aye, aye, aye, what a mess. I'm sure all this is not helping my fish get better.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

You need to pick up some Prime (by Seachem). It's a great dechlorinator that will detox that ammonia for you. Then you are going to need to do some partial water changes to get things back in shape.


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## Lindsey Dindsey (Jul 14, 2004)

Well luckily my nitrites disappeared within 12 hours of me switching the 2 fish and their filter over so the bacteria must not have been hurt too badly. I haven't seen a spike since. I finished 3 doses of JPC. However, my fish do not seem to be getting better, in fact, they seem worse.

Now a lot of the fish are not just flashing but doing weird twitching and spasms across the tank. Also, one of the fish looks really messed up. His "skin" is very rough looking all over. And they are all just mouthing the food or not eating at all. I did some research online and a lot of this sounds like maybe a bacterial infection, correct? I am not sure about the flashing though.

So I ran some carbon in the filter to take out the JPC, and got some Maracyn 1 and 2. I hope this will solve my problem because WOW this will be expensive to medicate a 100 gallon tank for a week. My husband just about killed me when he saw how much I spent on the meds today.

I wanted to get your opinion first but I felt like I really needed to act quickly. What do you think about my diagnosis and action? Help!


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Yes, you're on the right track. It sounds like Columnaris, and can be quite deadly.

Still try to squeeze in all the water changes you can. Even though the meds don't mention it, I try to do one daily just before adding the new meds for the day.

Not sure what your temp is now but slowly lower it to 76 degrees...This will slow down the spread of it.


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## Lindsey Dindsey (Jul 14, 2004)

Okay thanks. Glad I got the right stuff. I thought about Columnaris but I wasn't sure because nearly all of the fish, including the first one that was flashing, lack any kind of visible physical symptoms. Just one fish, one of the ones I never saw flashing, looks ill. And I am not sure if I would describe it as "cottony" but his whole body is just messed up looking, rough. Anyway, I don't have much experience with Columnaris so I wasn't sure, but either way I guess it does sound like a bacterial infection of some sort.

So flashing is a symptom of a bacterial infection? Most of the fish do it and it looks like it is the gill area still. I wonder if they could have multiple issues.

I sure have learned my lesson. ALWAYS quarantine new fish. :roll:


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I think you may have more than one thing going on.

There is no way to be 100% certain that this new symptom is Columnaris, but the way you describe their swimming behaviour and the rough look of the one fish tells me that it might be, and that't not something you want to delay treatment on.

Anytime a fish has something bothering them internally or externally, they tend to flash.

Columnaris can also be internal, so you might just now be seeing the external signs.

I would treat for a minimum of 7 days, just in case, preferably 10.


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## Lindsey Dindsey (Jul 14, 2004)

I actually began treatment yesterday, sorry, forgot to mention that. I think you were right in your diagnosis though because today I have noticed a little "fuzz" around the mouth of my beloved Pheno.  What do you think my chances are of saving these guys? I mean, I know Columnaris left untreated is pretty much certain death but since I have started treating do you think they've got a good shot?

I guess if they do have something else like a parasite also, I will worry about that later.

I only have enough meds for 7 days but I ordered one more 24 pack of each today online. Hopefully I can get it by the end of the week.

I will start lowering the temp right away. It's at 80 now.

Thanks again for your help!


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

If they had it internally before they started showing signs externally, you may have difficulty treating it. Don't give up, though...

Once you finish the antibiotics, you may want to do a large water change and add some Melafix to the tank to aid in healing the damage done. Expect fin deterioration...


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## Lindsey Dindsey (Jul 14, 2004)

Okay thanks. Keeping my fingers crossed. I'll let you know how it goes.


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## Lindsey Dindsey (Jul 14, 2004)

Lost a fish today.  A Bi-Color 500 Peacock. He was actually one of the ones that didn't look as bad as some of the others so I was surprised to find him dead.

I obviously don't want to lose any more fish but I REALLY hope I don't lose my Pheno. He doesn't look that great but he doesn't look worse either. He is still interested in food but still spitting.


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## kyle44107 (Jan 13, 2007)

> You may be dealing with gill flukes. That's the most common illness that causes fish to flash and isn't usually visible. If this is what it is, I'd rather go the medication route than salt route, since it can be quite difficult to eradicate, even with meds.


I respectfully disagree with this....(and sorry I just found this thread now).
Here is a paragraph from an article on Flukes from the editor of TFH:

"A simple salt treatment is often the safest and most prudent choice. The dose is four ounces of salt per ten gallons of water, maintained over three weeks to prevent reinfestation with newly-hatched flukes. Salt treatment is not recommended for tanks containing Corydoras and other salt sensitive fishes."

I avoid meds because you can play havoc with your biological bed and cause more problems than the original infestation. Also salt helps with bacterial infections as well..plus it's cost effective, plus you can water change every day while using it. So no ammonia, nitrogen problems and it's really really hard to overdose.

Kyle


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## Lindsey Dindsey (Jul 14, 2004)

Lost another one tonight. A little Venustus.


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## Lindsey Dindsey (Jul 14, 2004)

Red Empress down this morning. All of these fish have been ones that were showing less external signs. The two that look the worse in the way of cottony growths are still alive, although, they are also the two biggest fish.


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## Lindsey Dindsey (Jul 14, 2004)

Well, over the last few days I have lost 10 out of 12 of my fish, including my baby, my Pheno.  I have spent a fortune on medication and did everything I could do, but I guess I didn't catch it early enough. Not to mention, this whole thing could have been avoided if I had just quarantined the new fish like I knew I should. I swear I will never do that again.

Once I got down to three fish, I put them in a 20 gallon so that I could continue treating them for a little less expense. That was last night, I have since lost another. Now all I have left is an Electric Blue and a Blue Regal Peacock. They both look pretty good today, although I notice the EB is still flashing every once in a while, so I may have to try treating again for parasites once I am done with the Maracyn.

Everyone I know is wondering why I am still even bothering to try to keep these guys alive after I lost nearly the entire tank, but I am really hoping to save two, or at least one litte life, after all this mess. :fish:


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## Lindsey Dindsey (Jul 14, 2004)

Looks like those last two fish have made it.  Now I've got another question.

Before all this stuff started, I was in the process of upgrading from the 100 gallon to a 180. It is currently cycling now. I want to add the filter from the 100 gallon to the 180, as well as some sand and a heater. What kind of cleaning do I need to do? For the filter, it is a Fluval 404, I was planning on dumping most of the media and replacing it, except for maybe some bio rings. Can I just clean everything (with water) real well and let it dry out for like a week? I am not in a hurry to add these things to the tank, I would just like to know how persistant this disease is.

Thanks.


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## Lindsey Dindsey (Jul 14, 2004)

Please, if anyone has any suggestions, thanks...


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