# Making 40g sump, first timer



## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Here's my supposed plans for a 40g sump to work under my 135g. I have researched extensively but I have to admit I have no idea if what I drew up here is going to work. Any input or advice on this would be appreciated, as it's the next (and hopefully last) project I'll be undertaking for this tank. Here's a nice MS Paint drawing of what I'm thinking so far.

Edit: forgot to mention I'm also hoping to use the sump as a fry/isolation tank (not for sick fishies, but more for momma fish or if anyone gets too aggressive in the tank). Hence the large middle area.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

no lava rock usually goes on the left hand side (input from tank side). It's usually a drip tray made of plastic or something. Personally I would not use lava rock at all... it doesn't work as well as you'd think for freshwater setups... cheap pot scrubbers work well, as will any other material that won't get gunked up too quickly.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Ok so scrap the lava rock,,, lets see. How about this one? When I put in there "Substrate" it can be anything really, gravel, sand, whatever. I'm also probably going to place a few of the large rocks in there that I chose not to put back into the big tank when I originally got everything.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

winning design. Go for it! :thumb:

Post pics as you go... 
opcorn:


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Oh good, I guess I wasn't as far off as I was afraid  . I'll check back to make sure there aren't any other suggestions, but I'll run with this design for now.

Now just to make sure I can actually get the 40g into my stand and I can start on it.


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## shaguars7 (Apr 12, 2009)

i am notsuper familiar with sumps so take this with a grain of salt. I am just thinking more media as in pot scrubbers and 0ther things for biological filtration. I have seen many sumps on here and a few in person and it seem theres more than what your diagram appears to have.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Might have just been a mistake in the drawing, but I would have your sponge/mechanical media before the scrubbies.

Regarding the amount (or lack of) biological media, 
The big area of sand/gravel provides a large surface are for bacteria to grow on.
Couple that with in tank surface areas and the scrubbies.
It all adds up to an amount of potential bacterial colonies capable of handling anything you could get in the tank, short of cattle.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

> It all adds up to an amount of potential bacterial colonies capable of handling anything you could get in the tank, short of cattle.


Well thanks for dashing my hopes on my next purchase









Seriously though thank you, I'm still somewhat unsure of the "rule of thumb" layout of an average sump.

To change my mind a bit late in the post, if I were to use a 20 gallon instead of the 40, I would want to maximize the surface area in there with more scrubbies since I'm losing the area with substrate right? We would be having a fry/hospital tank separately in the house, instead incorporating it with the sump. I think it will be a lot easier to set up and maintain considering the tight fit in the stand.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Ok I drew up plans for a 20g sump, this one look ok?


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Just a GREAT picture.
:lol: :lol: :lol: 
Coloration all wrong, but that had to have been made by someone who kept Africans.
I`ve been calling them cows with fins for a long time.

*I would want to maximize the surface area in there with more scrubbies since I'm losing the area with substrate right?*

One of the great lines from a movie I saw was, "Life Will Find A Way".
That applies to your tank and filtration.
Biological activity will happen wherever it can eat, breathe, and reproduce.
Whether it`s on media, substrata, decor, etc.
Your drawing shows the typical layout of a wet/dry sump.
All the key components are there.
Just make sure you leave yourself enough room to get that felt out for exchange and cleaning.
On my first sump/overflow build, I fret, worried, researched until I felt I was going in ever tightening circles.
Finally just stopped all of the above and started putting it together.
Best thing I did.
Probably saved what little sanity I had left.
Best advice I could give is leave yourself some Ã¢â‚¬Å"wiggleÃ¢â‚¬Â


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

20G sump onna 135G DT might be a bit small to handle a power off situation.

The plumbing alone will drain a gallon or so and the tank might drain five gallons or close to it. When all is said and done with power on you might only have ten gallons in the sump and with evaporation consider the pump could cavitate.

I use a 20G sump onna 65G tank and get about five gallons draw back when the power is off.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

> 20G sump onna 135G DT might be a bit small to handle a power off situation.


That's the one thing nagging at me about this. I do have a 40g just sitting here, but to get it into the stand will require removing the pumps and setting them back up (still not sure it will fit until I try to stuff it in), so you can also imagine that maintaining said 40g sump would be a real nightmare. Perhaps I need to just bite the bullet and deal with the 40g, I would rather do it right or not at all.



> Finally just stopped all of the above and started putting it together.
> Best thing I did.
> Probably saved what little sanity I had left.


Lol I know exactly what you mean, I've been mildly losing it with all the planning. I just need to figure out what size tank to use for it and get cracking. I'm one step away at this point from making one with acrylic, but that just sounds like a whole new set of problems :lol:


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Ok so I just finished measuring in great detail to save myself the headache of simply trying to shove it in. My 40 gallon is not going to fit into my stand, I unfortunately cant fit a rubbermaid tub in there either, as the doors are too narrow. I may be stuck with 2 options:

Use a 20g, or make one with acrylic to fit the stand. Help give me a nudge in any direction to give me some momentum. Right now I'm going to scavenge around for what I can, I have all sorts of odds and ends being stored around here.

Edit: What about having a bucket contain the wet/dry filtration and whatnot, and have that siphon into a 20g? The 20g could be our mother/fry tank as well as allow at least 7 gallons of extra water (I would probably section the tank so that it's the fry area is the size of a 10 gallon tank, allowing for (one would assume) 10 gallons of overflow. I was messing around outside with the idea and drilled a hole in the side of a bucket, then attached hose to make a siphon into the 10 gallon (that I'm using to test stuff). It seems to work, but has anyone here done that or seen it done? It seems like it may be a nice elegant way to take care of a few of my problems at once.


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

if you use the pvc pretzel overflow. 20g will be fine.
ill try to find the link tomorrow.

(72x18x.5")/231 is only 2.8g of water emptying during a power outage.
with about 6" baffle to the sump. you should have plenty of room.

plus ill take pic of my 20g sump w/ it running and power off.
mel


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Unfortunately I'm planning on a skimming overflow, I'm tired of all the junk and film that hangs around the top. So because of that I'm willing to go through extra effort to make sure I have enough of a sump to hold any water needed.

Thank you mel, btw I totally used your pic of your 20g sump to come up with mine (http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... 98418c39c1http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=220717&sid=0e55cd613153de2ad28eb98418c39c16). A little different layout but I had a heck of a time finding a pic of a sump where I could actually see how it's set up, so thank you for that . I'm sure that sucker fills up quite a bit when you shut down lol.


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## Malawi_Junkie (Nov 26, 2009)

Your plan looks good, My only recommendation would be to raise your water level in the sump so you don't have to top it off as often. By looking at your drawing you would only have 8 - 10 gallons in there and would have to check it at least every other day due to evaporation.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

> By looking at your drawing you would only have 8 - 10 gallons in there and would have to check it at least every other day due to evaporation.


That's true, I didn't consider that part of it in that design. I was more thinking of having maximum space for water to go if I lose power, it being only a 20g in that pic.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

*8 - 10 gallons in there and would have to check it at least every other day due to evaporation.*

Not trying to be a smart-a$%, but your sump is fed from the tank.
Evaporation, in the sump, wouldn`t be an issue, right?
Overall system might have more evaporation, or not.
Usually a wet/dry will have more water loss than a wet sump, but that is easily noticed by the water level in the tank.

I`ve seen quite a few bucket in the sump builds, while effective they are a bit more of a challenge to maintain.
http://www.aquariumlife.net/projects/diy-filter/111.asp


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

ok. but just so you know.
these pvc actually skims the top of water.
also, with these types of overflow. water level in the tank stays constant.

thats it for now. it sounds like im trying to sell these pvc overflow to you. lol!


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## Malawi_Junkie (Nov 26, 2009)

> Not trying to be a smart-a$%, but your sump is fed from the tank.
> Evaporation, in the sump, wouldn`t be an issue, right?
> Overall system might have more evaporation, or not.
> Usually a wet/dry will have more water loss than a wet sump, but that is easily noticed by the water level in the tank.


Wrong, it would be an issue because main tank level will stay the same. The return constantly tops off the main tank so any water loss would be noticed in the sump. If the main tank level dropped the skimmer overflow wouldn't siphon to sump until level rises again reducing the sump water level.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

If you all say so, mine didn`t work that way.
All I could go by.
As evaporation occurred the tank actually showed the loss.
I have had skimmer, skimerless, and PVC pretzel overflows and all gave a pretty consistent flow into the sump.
The pumps output didn`t change much that I could see.
Water level in the sump stayed constant, but tank level would lower.
I never let the evaporation drop more than an inch(+or- a smidge), the spray bar would get louder. 
Water in, water out stayed constant on the sumps end.
But, like I said, the tanks level would lower.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

I have no experience with over the top overflows as our three sumped tanks are drilled.

Having said that any evaporation in our systems is noticed in the sump. The water line in the DT remains constant relative to the pump output and drain balance. If I notice the water level in the DT rising (and drain was balanced) I know there is obstruction in the drain such as when we used to prefilter our durso's ... note to self, never do that again. If the water level in the DT lowers it is time to clean the pump sponge and/ or inpellar ... either that or the drain balance is out of whack.

Evaporation appears as the sumps' tank level drops , it also drops when the socks start to clog. Again this is from our experience with drilled tanks.


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## optimusdude (Oct 12, 2010)

KaiserSousay said:


> If you all say so, mine didn`t work that way.
> All I could go by.
> As evaporation occurred the tank actually showed the loss.
> I have had skimmer, skimerless, and PVC pretzel overflows and all gave a pretty consistent flow into the sump.
> ...


That is physically immposible. All evaporation will only show in the return chamber of your sump --ALWAYS with one exception ,you have a canister not a sump


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## optimusdude (Oct 12, 2010)

Teggy said:


> Here's my supposed plans for a 40g sump to work under my 135g. I have researched extensively but I have to admit I have no idea if what I drew up here is going to work. Any input or advice on this would be appreciated, as it's the next (and hopefully last) project I'll be undertaking for this tank. Here's a nice MS Paint drawing of what I'm thinking so far.
> 
> Edit: forgot to mention I'm also hoping to use the sump as a fry/isolation tank (not for sick fishies, but more for momma fish or if anyone gets too aggressive in the tank). Hence the large middle area.


This is a great layout but you may want to make a consideration for a larger return area as that is where all evaporation will show. Therefore the smaller the return area the more often you will be topping it up. i just built a 40 gallon sump for my 75 gallon and it drops about an inch a day and my return section is 10 " wide.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

^^ The size of the pump well should be such that if a problem arises with the drains the pump cavitates before the DT overflows. This is the limit not to exceed and how one should size the volume of this chamber. Evaporation plays second fiddle to this constraint.


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

i also have to agree. if water in the main tank is flactuating. then, something is not right.
possibly the drains cannot handle or keep up with the pump.
a properly tuned drain and sump set up should maintain water level in the tank.
thats the reason why sumps has operating level and minimum water level to prevent
pump from running dry.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

I hate to join in, but I would say given the way water acts in an overflow/sump, the water level would drop in the sump when evaporation occurred. When your water level is determined by an overflow it will have to be at that level, or else water wouldn't (shouldn't) be getting down to the sump anymore. With my fish health concerns at the moment I've put the sump on the backburner until I get my tank well again. I can't say what is causing that to happen in your case, let's take a look though shall we?

Got any pictures of your sump/overflow setup Kaiser? Cuz I'm curious now. Whatever may be happening will be good to know before I take on making my sump


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Pretty sad assortment of pictures, for sure.
Never did get any pictures of the HOB overflows or the drawered cart that took the place of the plastic shoe box media containers.
Got so wrapped up in the doing of it, never thought to get any pictures.
As you can see, this is a small sump, even for a 55g. tank.
Had to go with what could fit in the stand.
Maintaining accurate water levels was crucial.
Not allot of Ã¢â‚¬Å"wiggle roomÃ¢â‚¬Â


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

theres your problem. 
that type of overflow doesnt skim the 1/2" of surface water.
that one drains from bottom all the way to where your last holes are. 
thats the reason your tank water doesnt stay constant. plus like i mentioned before, those are extremely noisy. i also retired those types long ago.

im running 20g sump on a 125g tank with the pvc pretzel overflow w/ no issues whatsoever.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

To each his own 

There's nothing wrong with it, it just means you'll notice a drop in the tank instead of the sump. I like the setup, looks well done.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Thanks for the push..
While going over a bunch of files, I found a couple pics of my HOB overflow.
I used this with both skimmer box and a skimmerless.
This was made out of a fish bagger and PVC electrical conduit fittings.
I used the bagger(around$6,with free shipping) because of it`s size and it already had a hanger.
Drain line is 1 1/4 pipe.
Whole show shown was around $10 total.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

What do you use in that overflow to determine the tanks water level? I was going to ask this question in a much smarter sounding way. However with my experience I would have sounded like a dunce hehe.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Teggy said:


> What do you use in that overflow to determine the tanks water level? I was going to ask this question in a much smarter sounding way. However with my experience I would have sounded like a dunce hehe.


The inside fitting is a slip fit.
I added varying lengths of pipe until I got it to stop at the level I wanted when power was removed.
When I had a skimmer, I cut the bottom of the "teeth" to the stop flow level.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

I wish I had more experience with this to figure why your dropping water level in your tank instead of your sump. Only thing I can say is the overflow must not be determining the water level in the tank :-?


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## iwade4fish (Jan 5, 2009)

Kaiser, or whatever your name is, my 100gallon w/wet/dry acts the same. Have 1.5" and 1" siphoning from the skimmer to HOB overflow. 40 gal basic wet/dry with 1" pvc all around. 1200gph pump behind it all, running at 3' of head. Tank finds it's own level, usually 1" below what I find ideal, I just deal with it once a week during water changes....Teggy, here's mine....





































and the coffee-induced draw-up.....


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

*my 100gallon w/wet/dry acts the same.*

As my wife would say, "Must be a Florida thing".
:lol:


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## PauloSilva (Apr 17, 2006)

Hows it going with this sump.

I'm proposing to build something like this:










sorry if its not clear


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