# To bleach or not?



## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

There have been many discussions of how to clean rocks, wood and such that go in the tank and it always seems there is no clear consensus on whether it is safe to use bleach. I'm on the side that says it's safe and another forum user feels it is not. I hope we have agreed to discuss it from the two sides and see if we can't find why there is such a difference of opinion. I offered to start the topic, so I will lay out my thinking and then let others throw in what they know. First, let me say that I'm not chemically inclined and only plan to learn as much as needed on that side. Where I have dealt with bleach is from the user side. Seems at this time the technical and the user side don't agree and yet there should be a way to get the two sides to match. 
Where I first started using bleach was in dealing with a community water system which used a pellet drop system to add chlorine pellets to the well to disinfect to meet DNR standards. We were required to have a certain amount of chlorine residual left in the sample for it to pass. To do this, we had to cap the bottle and drive it directly to the lab before the chlorine dissipated and the lab report showed no residual. Training for the job said the chlorine dissipated into the air given time. As a side effect of working with the solid pellets for chlorine, we found that leaving the pellet jug open in the supply shed let the chlorine gas rust all the metal in the shed including our tools. This indicates to me that the chlorine whether is solid pellets or liquid mixed with water dissipates into the air quite quickly.

That's part of the reason I feel bleach is safe to use but that conflicts with what other technically trained folks think. I should wait for them to throw out their thinking as well.


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

I for one use bleach all the time to disinfect things like rocks and other decorations.
However, I would like to add that I do so in the form of a mild solution with about 1 part bleach to 3 or 4 parts water.
After a very thorough rinse and a complete air dry it has always been safe to use.

Many have used similar protocol before me and results are consistent.
Whether there is a technicallity to this doesn't matter to me since I find it works and is completely safe.
After all, municipal tap water contains chlorine and chloramines and we as hobbyists have established efficient ways to deal with this.

What are the other options to disinfecting if you all don't mind me asking?
Boiling? Not easy to do if you have large pieces to boil.
Scrubbing? A lot of labor involved in this method.
To me the bleach method is the best approach.
Any thoughts?


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## adnanx (Aug 9, 2004)

As long as you rinse it well and make sure there is no residue in nooks and cranies, theres no reason not to use it. Bleach is water-soluble, so its not like its stuck to whatever material you are washing.


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## bntbrl (Apr 23, 2009)

In tissue culture we use what is called VinOxide. Its 1 part vinegar heated in the microwave for 45 seconds or so, and then add 4 parts hydrogen peroxide. Its cooled int eh fridge for 1 or 2 hours then used to sterilize seeds or explants before putting in vitro. It is food safe after it dries, it is after all h2o2 and vinegar but when they are heated and mixed they sterilize stuff. Id avoid getting it int he eyes and bare skin, just like bleach, but soak it as long as you like, it will lose its power exposed to the sun and elements I would think overnight easily. People use it to clean countertops, carpets, etc. It doesnt stay good for more thana day or two. it is strongest after a day I think. I always make mine fresh for explant sterilizng. I also use it to sterilize fish nets and things like that. It will or should kill bacteria, spores, and things like that, and all of it as we need a sterile plant to put in a sterile jar, with sterile media, for a month. Anyone tried it on driftwood and rocks? Ill ask around at the tissue culture guys.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I was hoping for the other side of the discussion to show up and throw in his thoughts from a technical side. There's little to be gained from only getting one side of a discussion. I like to hear both sides and quite often find I learn something worthwhile. It's possible he has been busy or not spotted this topic yet.

bntbrl--Maybe I can get some good info from you? Vinoxide souds interesting from a planted tank view. There is some danger of killing plants by some of the ways to remove snails. Has anybody tried Vinoxide on plants for the tank to disinfect them?


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Bleach is fine for bleaching algae off non porous rocks and empty glass aquariums. It is riskier to use with porous or organic materials.

I don't think there is really anyone completely on the opposite side of PfunMo on this topic. Before this discussion started, I had a rock cave soaking in a bleach solution. It was one I bought in Europe on vacation so I would not be reckless with it, would I.

He brought up bleaching driftwood on another topic. That I think is beyond a reasonable and safe use of bleach. The wood will (surprise!) bleach, probably losing its natural appearance and breaking down wood structure. Some bleach will soak deep into the wood, out of reach of rinsing and even dechlor. Driftwood is one of the times to use an alternative to bleach. Bleaching artificial plants and plastic aquarium equipment is also destructive. Plastic will fade in color and become weak and brittle after exposure to bleach.

But for most other uses, it is fine. You can use dechlor, rinse with fresh water or water change water, or leave some air stones in to dissipate or neutralise the bleach, at least the active components of it.

For most aquarium uses, you can substitute hydrogen peroxide with less damaging effects, although it will still lighten up wood and artifical plants, but to a minor degree. It will also kill snails. You can kill them quickly with a high concentration, or in a low regular dose in a live planted tank with live fish, to gradually kill both snails and algae without affecting the fish or plants. Hydrogen peroxide breaks down into water and oxygen, so there is nothing dangerous to rinse off or worry about. The disadvantage of H2O2 is that is has a shorter shelf life than bleach, especially once it's been opened.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I guess i missed the point of your comments on the other topic. When you said it would soak in and leave residue that could not be washed off, I felt you were saying it was somehow dangerous and you did not feel that the type chlorine used in bleach would not dissipate when rinsed and air dried. Is that what you meant or is the question about the appearance that you mention here? For appearance, I think most everyone will agree that bleach does whiten things. Watching TV ads will tell us that. Where you seemed to fault using it was on the danger of using bleach.



> PfunMo wrote:
> Looking at the site referenced it seems to state what I have always believed.
> 
> Quote:
> ...


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

H2O2 is a great little handy item and I prefer it to bleach without a doubt. That said, I've bleached driftwood, rocks, dead coral skeletons, bones, etc. Any residual bleach that might leach out over time will be broken down pretty quickly in your average aquarium with substrate, filters, water movement.

What I've never really understood (and no one can explain to me) is WHY you all feel that driftwood, rocks, plants, etc. need to be "disinfected" prior to adding to our aquariums.

Live plants can be dipped to kill off snails and the like, and there are great "recipes" for dipping that would NOT involve H2O2 nor bleach... I see no need to "disinfect" plants.

As for rocks... well, I'd like to know what bogeyman lives in a rock that regular washing won't deal with, but bleach or H2O2 will... I've taken microbiology and still don't know what you're all trying to kill. If rocks were submerged/ wet when collected then perhaps there is a what-if scenario or two where H2O2 might be worth it... personally I would still go for drying it out and washing it off properly over H2O2 and way before bleach, but that's just me.

Driftwood that was submerged should definitely by dried out prior to use...

to make a long rant short, I prefer H2O2 as a cleaning solution over bleach but do not use either as any sort of anti-biotic. 
:thumb:


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## bntbrl (Apr 23, 2009)

Where I am from we have all sorts of water bugs, and they have larvae. Taking a driftwood lof out of a river and plopping it into your discus tank isnt a good idea to me. Well, maybe not discus but you get the idea. You never really know what is growing on anything do we? After all the entire human body even is covered, literally, with bacteria.

Bleach is sodium hypoclorite, and about 5 percent solution in the grocery store. Give or take a percent or two when comparing name brand to back alley brands. Age has a lot to do with solution strength as well.

Sodium hypochlorite will dissipate naturally. I cannot say exactly how long to allow it to dry and air out because each wood density and porosity is different. From my experimentations and uses with bleach as a sterilant in explants for tissue culture I am not concerned about bleach in my tanks like I used to be. I would not however haphazardly dip wood in bleacha nd ddrop it in my tanks. I use bleach on aquairum items. I have a gallon of bleach, white vinegar, and h2o2 (hydrogen peroxide) in my fishroom.

I would advise using a small amount of bleach in the water. If I had a 20 gallon tub full of stuff I will only use 25ml to 50ml of bleach at most and soak it. After the soaking, especially in 24 or 48 hours, it should be as sterile as its going to get. Id recommend then rinsing it and soaking it in clean tap water for that length of time as well. Let it air dry for a day and then use it. At least that is how I do it. I dont profess to be Mr Driftwood but *** used a lot of driftwood *** picked up.

VinOxide is used in short term sterilziing for explants. Meaning that if I use a shoot or even seeds I only need to agitate them for about 2 1/2 minutes to 3 minutes (more on very textured seeds) to be sterile. They are then removed and replated in a sterile environment. I would think that any bacteria, fungus, soft eggs, even lots of larve and things of that nature wouldnt survive it. For plants VinOxide is more gentle on the tissue but most explants need to be rinsed ins terile distilled water before being plated. For the aquarium Id think that a brisk rinse in tap water, then a 2 1/2 minute soak in vinoxide and a rinse in tap or distilled water again would kill most anything aside from some of the very most hardcore critters. I have not tried it with aquatic plants but usuing explants from outside I have had none or very little contamination using vinoxide. The original name was aapphaa and it was shortened because of confusion. It works for me and I dont see why it wouldnt work for aquarium plants, however Im not certain that it will kill all snails. I dont have any snails to test it on but when and if I do I will test it.

Anyway enough jibber jabber blowhardness from me.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

I don't know what germs are supposed to be being killed either. I thought the idea of using bleach or H2O2 was to clean something, get the dirt and algae off so it looks new again.

To kill aquatic bad guys that might hitchhike on rocks or driftwood, I just set it in the rock garden for a while. The worst that can happen is a kid breaking it or my wife planting sedum in it.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*bntbrl*
we have critters in the water down here in Florida... from amoeba to gators. I can tell you, I wouldn't trust a hunk of wood out of a pond here in Florida to be critter free after a 48 hour bleach soak.

But... neither do I think it has to be.

I've added wood I found to a Discus tank. I took some basic precautions against lifeforms and possible pathogens, but it didn't involve boiling, bleaching, sand blasting nor any other WMD. :lol:


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*Mcdaphnia*
agreed!

If I am really paranoid about something, I trick spores, cysts and the like to hatch by soaking it in between drying periods. Nothing beats rapid drying and soaking along with good old UV rays to be rid of hitch hikers!


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> it always seems there is no clear consensus on whether it is safe to use bleach


It's very safe IME, I've done it off and on for years. Just use dechlor to neutralize it. As for reasons, I introduced snails to my tanks a couple of years ago by not bleaching rocks taken from a creek and I still can't get rid of them. To each his own, but I bleach rocks taken from the wild. If from a landscape yard, just a good scrubbing will do. Other methods work also, but bleaching is safe and easy and I don't understand the opposition to it. It's as easy as any other method.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

A basic thought on the chlorine in bleach is that it reacts with organics. That's why we use it to wash clothes. That is why strong bleach will makes holes in your pants. Once it reacts with organics, it is no longer chlorine. With that in mind, how can one say that it will be left in wood? 
One- it reacts with the wood.
Two- it dissipates into the air.

What is left is not chlorine. The reason I use bleaching is that it DOES soak into all the little places where I can't scrub. I know there are things that lay eggs or larva that can persist over very long dry periods. What they are and whether they could live and come out in my tank, I don't know. It will also react with any iron in my rocks leaving a rusty spot and I can avoid using them. It is just that an overnight soak is easy and cheap insurance.

I think of it as a way to start with a clean slate. Even though I can't see things on my plate, I do like knowing that my wife washes them before serving my meals. I would do the same for my fish.


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## bntbrl (Apr 23, 2009)

I did not think about the iron inthe rocks lol. When my tissue cultures get contaminated from poor handling and processing techniques I put them in a 5 gallon bucket of water with some bleach added, if they arent already rusty (the mason jar lids with the metal rings) from being exposed to bleach while sterilizing and plating they are after they come out of the bucket. So are my forcepts, and any other ferrous metal. I know that planted tanks need chelated iron, I do not know what levels it is bad for fish though. Perhaps a big ole chunk of ore would be bad, how much is bad ???


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Rust on rocks isn't necessarily cause to toss a rock and not use it. See Suitability of Rocks in the forum library. Very few rocks are unsafe for aquariums.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I found out the hard way that tools and chlorine need to be kept apart. We left the solid pellets container open once and even the metal pull chain on the light was rusted as well as all the tools and tool box. That is a major reason we switched from a pellet drop to an injector system. When the pellets drop down the well they tend to stick to the casing and rust a hole in the pipe. Very expensive to repair. In a tank it is probably not a big worry as when we do water changes I would think the iron would be kept to a minimum. But there are so many things that can't be prevented that I like to do what I can to stay away from the trouble I can prevent.

bntbrl
I will be collecting some plants from the wild shortly and hope to use your formula for killing the little beasties that ride along. There are other methods but they are kind of hit and miss. Sometimes they don't kill all you want killed and other times the dip kills the plants. Lots of times you don't know which way it will turn out until after the fact.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

bntbrl said:


> I did not think about the iron inthe rocks lol. When my tissue cultures get contaminated from poor handling and processing techniques I put them in a 5 gallon bucket of water with some bleach added, if they arent already rusty (the mason jar lids with the metal rings) from being exposed to bleach while sterilizing and plating they are after they come out of the bucket. So are my forcepts, and any other ferrous metal. I know that planted tanks need chelated iron, I do not know what levels it is bad for fish though. Perhaps a big ole chunk of ore would be bad, how much is bad ???


 The anathema of iron may be over rated. I remember a tank with a huge anchor in it. It was real and "stuck" in a fake "coral head" made of cinder blocks and cement. Eventually billows of rust cascaded down the back of the anchor and the cinder blocks but everything was fine because none of it showed from the front of the tank. Some of the clownfish in the tank spawned and their fry grew up to about an inch long in the filter before anyone noticed them there. At home we had a piece of live rock that turned out to have a huge broken bolt head inside it.

Near us there are fresh water streams making their way north, passing though zones of high iron. Below those zones everything is coated with a layer of rust, including the plants, which don't seem to mind. Maybe they even like it. Pet shops used to have metal frame tanks, and those frames rusted, but often the same rusty tanks were lush with plant growth and breeding, growing fish. Most of those old pet shops have become history but there is still one near enough to me that I can still stop by once in a while and see those well rusted aquariums still holding water and healthy aquatic life.

Rust stains and leaves marks on things. I think that's the valid objection to it. Somehow that real drawback has morphed into a mysterious and illogical toxicity. Most of the internet sites talking about iron toxicity are trying to sell some herbal product or doctrine.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Somehow that real drawback has morphed into a mysterious and illogical toxicity. Most of the internet sites talking about iron toxicity are trying to sell some herbal product or doctrine.


I'm with you. Not sure where and how these things get started. I often read here that rust on rocks means it can't be used. Just not true.


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## bntbrl (Apr 23, 2009)

I guess if fish and plants can live in a stream that is full of ddt, fertilizer runoff, pcbs, mercury, and other pollutants I cant see why a bit of iron would hinder it.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

bntbrl said:


> I guess if fish and plants can live in a stream that is full of ddt, fertilizer runoff, pcbs, mercury, and other pollutants I cant see why a bit of iron would hinder it.


Older aquariums were made of cast iron, with the bottoms fully cast iron. In a sense, you could stretch the point that basalt, the rock that characterizes the ocean floor, has a good iron content to say the ocean has a cast iron bottom too.


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