# Haplochromis Kyoga Flameback or not?



## Reeyia

Here's the story-awhile back I purchased a group of Kyoga Flamebacks (that's what the breeder said they were and continues to sell his fish as such). Recently I received very inelegant, non-professional and nearly slanderous information that the fish I have are NOT Kyoga Flamebacks. I am disturbed (can you tell?) as I had done much research before buying and was convinced that they were what they were sold as. These are the best pictures I have and would like feedback from you all here - are they Kyoga or not? If not then what?
Here are 2 of the males not in breeding color; about 4.5" at the time. When they are showing off the red is very deep and the yellow/green on the sides is very vibrant, the lateral line is not as prominent and the ventral fins turn black of course.


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## alanastar

Hi,
Just out of interest take a look at this thread 
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... p?t=187952

There are similarities to structureguy's fish.

Hope you get a possitive ID on your fish.

:thumb: 
paul


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## StructureGuy

This seems to be the hot button Victorian topic of the year.

http://www.hillcountrycichlidclub.com/h ... ight=kyoga

http://www.cichlidae.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4820

Iâ€™m sure you know that the Haplochromis (Xystichromis) sp. â€œKyoga Flamebackâ€


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## Reeyia

Thanks to both of you for the links. I very much like the Victorians but only have 2 species right now, someday hope to get more. Anyway, thanks for the reassurance StructureGuy-the individual that I was referring to was in no way nice and claims to have been keeping Kyoga Flamebacks for many years. Also, the link you provided here was one of the pages I used to research before I bought mine. I wish I could get a decent picture of my dominant male, he is too busy darting around and won't stay still long enough for me to snap the shot-someday I'll catch him though, he is beautiful! My fish do bear striking resemblence to alot of the photos you provided. The coloration does vary considerably among the individuals depending on their moods, the females are dead on as well, and the body and head shapes match (unless I am completely blind!). For now then, I'll stick with the label Kyoga Flameback until new information comes along.


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## patrickeriksson

Well said Kevin. 
I have raised well over a hundred of the "Kyoga Flameback" and there are variances in the striping not only depending on mood but also depending on substrate, lighting and tankmates. Maybe water parameters will make a difference as well, and food. One thing that has been consistent in my fish is the pure white anal fin. This is also consistent with the fish I have seen pictures of from Europe. Kevin, the fish in your pictures look just like mine except for the red in the anal fin. Reeyia, yours appear to have a white anal fin. Maybe different localities?

Reeyia:
I think that it is a very good chance that your fish is "Kyoga Flameback", but more pictures of the fish in different moods always help. I can contribute with a video clip of mine spawning. This male is only 3.5 inches.


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## Reeyia

Can't take pictures worth a hoot so this is the best I can do until I get more practice. Sorry they are so huge too but maybe that will help. This is all the same male. Hope these help. This male turns that brilliant red like you have shown in your video patrickeriksson when he is working one of the females; he was just a little concerned about the camera and not willing to show off quite so much. This guy is about 5" right now. You can see he has a white anal fin. 
I believe it is the Xystichromis Lake Nawampasse(sp)


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## Reeyia

While I'm on the subject - what is the best to feed for their color? I let algae grow on the rock in the picture, they like to pick on it and I give them tropical color flake. I've never fed them any pellet foods. The pH is 7.6 and I keep the temp. at 76. All other parameters are fine (ammonia, nitrite, etc.). I do 30-40% water changes weekly with gravel vac., clean the filters weekly and change the media monthly (alternating filters to keep the bacteria up). I frequently have 1-2 females holding. Anything else I should do or does this belong under a defferent topic?


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## chapman76

Reeyia's and Structureguy's both look different from my old guy. My male is one I had for about 7 years and this picture is about 5 years old. I no longer have him or the group. I raised a few hundred fry from this group and not a single male that I raised to adulthood (maybe 20 or so) ever had blue on his dorsal fin. Even if you look at the papers on the species, they state the only possible blue should be at the back of the dorsal fin where the red fades to blue/clear/white. At no point should there be blue anywhere in the first half of the dorsal fin (front to back).

The black vertical barring goes away totally when fired up. He was about #3 on the dominance chart for the tank he was in, thus the blah colors.










I think the big problem with the All Red variants is that there weren't enough people keeping them that knew/tracked the variants and they eventually got mixed up and thus the Kyoga/Nawampasa issues we now have today.


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## chapman76

Reeyia,

My male (or the group as a whole) was easily the most timid guys. If he isn't #1 on the tank, he didn't ever show good color. When he was #1, he could flare up a few times a day and when breeding. He never held his great coloring more than 30 minutes at a time. The vast majority of the time he looked like the picture. It seems like you're doing everything fine. I would suggest switching to a pellet, but that's just a person thing because it's less messy, IMO.


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## StructureGuy

chapman76 said:


> Even if you look at the papers on the species, they state the only possible blue should be at the back of the dorsal fin where the red fades to blue/clear/white. At no point should there be blue anywhere in the first half of the dorsal fin (front to back).


I'm curious about your source for the papers? Is there a link?

Kevin


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## Reeyia

I'm focusing pretty heavy on this fish. I had emailed the seller and he says his group was "imported" from a private breeder about 2 years ago. Didn't expand on imported from where and I'm afraid to be too much of a pest to probe further right now. I will later and try to learn more on the lineage. 
I to would like to know the "papers" source for further research.


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## Alistriwen

Reeyia what you have is likely not a xystichromis Kyoga flameback. It looks to me like a hap. all red common name Kyoga Flameback (http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... hp?id=1550) or a hap. flameback... or maybe even a hap. red back scraper or a p. Nyereri of some sort. It's one of the unfortunate realities of the vic world that multiple species with different scientific names have the same common name. For example, my zebra obliquidens are astatotilapia latifasciata but some other folks call their hap sp. 44 zebra obliquidens. That conundrum is even worse because hap sp. 44 as far as Im concerned is more than one fish. Too many variants that are positively sp. 44 look too different to be the same fish, at very least they are different colour morphs. I have xystichromis Kyoga Flamebacks and they look substantially different than what is in your picture. Your fish doesn't have enough red to be the xystichromis. I don't have my camera with me until wednesday but I'll try and get some pictures with my cell phone to illustrate.


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## Reeyia

Alistriwen - I'd love to see pictures of yours. Mine looks nearly identical to chapman76 except for the slight blue in the dorsal and nearly a dead ringer with StructureGuys fish don't you think? 
He has much more color then the Haplochromis all red (Lake Kyoga) or the Hap. all red (Lake Edwards). I wonder if it has anything to do with my lousy photography-maybe the flash has made him look different then he really is!
If I could only get a decent picture of him fully colored-he gets much more red then shown in these shots. Everytime I get close with the camera while he's fired up though he tones it down and just looks at me.
Still waiting for chapman76's paper link.
I'm not argueing with anybody-just pulling out more information from everyone-looking at all the angles. Then again because of the Victorian confusion may never get to the bottom of it.


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## Reeyia

Oh - I forgot! If they are Haplochromis Kyoga Flameback that's fine, if they are Xystichromis Kyoga flameback that's fine too. Just wanting to get a little closer then I am now. So far though still leaning on the Xystichromis side because - 1. size and 2. flank colors


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## patrickeriksson

Xystichromis sp. "Kyoga flameback" and Haplochromis sp. "all red" (Lake Kyoga & Nawampasa)are two different names of the same fish. I know it's confusing when the same species appear on two different places in the profiles.

The blue in the dorsal fin is a typical "flash" effect when taking photographs. You can see blue in pretty much any fish in a picture that normally do not display blue in real life.


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## Alistriwen

It's possible. I know fish of the same species can have a fairly wide range of appearances. My kyoga flameback looks substantially different in person but we'll see how he turns out in the photos.


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## dln78

Patrick is correct. Haplochromis all red lake kyoga and xystichromis kyoga flameback are the same thing. It can be very confusing to understand the different terms.

These are my xystichromis kyoga flamebacks. Kevin, I believe my kyoga flamebacks originated from Florida Exotics as well. Hence the similarities between our fish.



















My own words copy and pasted on a different forum. This is what I have to contribute about my kyoga flamebacks.

"I have read almost everything there is to read about victorian cichlids. Especially on Kyoga Flambacks. My male Kyoga Flameback has a bar that begins from the corner of his lips that runs through his eyes to almost the top of his head. The lower portion of his head is blue not yellow nor red. His lips are blue and not yellow. He has a lateral bar that runs from the beginning of his gills to his peduncle which breaks into pieces and resembles bars which are not evident like the "Nyererei" species but are faint. The lower flanks of my male "KF" are yellow and turns into lime-green ending at the peduncle and his anal fins are whitish blue and becomes red towards the perimeter. His dorsal fin is red running all the way until the end where it becomes bluish and his caudal fin is red broken up by blue streaks but is red around the perimeter of the fin and his pelvic fins are black."


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## Reeyia

Well, I'm glad somebody said what I had been thinking all along - that haplochromis and xystichromis were the same (just different lakes). I am just too new to put it out there myself - didn't want anyone to laugh at me!
Also, watching my dominant male this morning strutting for a female - no blue in the forward dorsal, the blue reappeared when he went after another male and of course shows in the pictures. Seems he can turn that blue on and off at will, but I don't know-it's probably just me.
I did switch foods yesterday, trying Omega One color flake and I added a few pellets (which they initially hated but seem OK with them now)
Still trying for that picture -he stops what he's doing and stares at me still, I can't seem to catch him-he's too smart for me!


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## OHFISH

Reeyia ...

I have over 80 of these guys. They reproduce worse than rats, but the males are very attractive. If anyone needs some drop me a line.

The following pictures are all of the same male . Notice the color variations.


























I purchased my original three fish (one male pictured here and two females) from my LFS and they had them labeled as Kyoga Flameback. My LFS also had Pundamelia Nyeri, and at first glance the two look very similar. Because many of these can cross breed, who is to say if any of these are pure.

As I mentioned they reproduce quickly. At any point in time I always have a pregnant female.  I make the mistake over and over of not wanting the fry to die and rescue them from the jaws of those that might make a meal of them. :? Thus my large quantities of these fish. At this rate my home will have more water than oxygen.


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## Reeyia

Thanks for the pics of yours OHFISH. Mine change colors all the time as well depending on what they are up to! I have spoken with the breeder I got mine from and he assures me that they are not crossed with Pundamilla; he imported his stock from Europe. But, as you said - who knows!. In any case, I'm calling them Kyoga Flameback because that is what the breeder said they were. And as others have said here, you always find that one person somewhere that believes theirs is the correct species.
I really am getting more and more into the Victorians. On the hunt for a small colony of Madonna and then hopefully Red Finned Piebald - anyway that's my wish list.
Thanks again to all who have offered their assistance to me, can't say how much it is appreciated!


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