# multies or n. brichardi for feeders?



## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

i will be setting up a 15g tank soon and just wondering which of these
2 fish will make a better feeder supply. 
i know its kind of harsh using tangs as feeders but i would like to enjoy watching the parents to.
im leaning towards the multies due to the size of the tank.


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## eeztropheus (Jan 10, 2010)

Brichardis would be better size feeders for your fronts.


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

will they be fit in a 24x12" footprint?
yeah i was kind of concern about the multies size but i do like them as a colony.


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## Mr Mbuna (Nov 16, 2007)

I have no issue with using feeders myself (although no doubt someone eventually will on this post), but its really not necessary. I keep Tembwe fronts myself and have used swordtails and cyps (expensive mistake that one) as feeders in the past but they don't really seem that keen on them and show far more enthusiasm for shrimp and pellets. In answer to your question though, I'd go for Brichardi and I have bred them in a 2' tank with no problems.
I occasionally give them live river shrimp (I think they are called ghost shrimp over there) and they love them - easily available from my lfs, but nutritionally not that great.


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

i understand about feeders but fish eat fish in the wild.
i feed 3-4" cyphos with 1.5" goldfish and they just love them.
usually give them about a dozen feeder fish and they only last for about 2 days max.
but the bad thing with feeders from the lfs is i dont know if they are clean and healthy. thats why i want to grow my own. 
maybe ill just use convicts, that way i dont offend anyone here in this Tang section.


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## dielikemoviestars (Oct 23, 2007)

You can easily have a breeding pair of brichardi in a 1'x2' footprint. That's the exact set-up I had for my first pair - first fish I ever bred. Growing out the fry will take a lot of work, though, you know...


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## Anthraxx8500 (Feb 11, 2011)

personally id just go with some kinda live bearers. i have bred swordtails before and they can release huge numbers rather quickly. also you can pick and choose some rather brightly colored ones. (perhaps it will get the fronts more motivated) and hey they are cheap as dirt! GL to ya. (just know swords can get up to 5 inches as adults)


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Fish eat fish in the wild is not good logic. Nutritionally, feeders are pretty much useless unless you gut load them IMO. They obviously can't compete with a good pellet. The good foods are made out of fish and krill, ect anyway.

On the other hand, feeding feeders is fun! I would for sure raise my own if I was going to feed feeders. Convicts would be an easy and fun feeder source. Multi's seem too much of a pain to deal with.


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## illpoet (Jan 20, 2011)

i'd be careful feeding too many goldfish, i've heard they cause liver problems if used over long periods of time. i've used guppies alot bc they breed like rabbits, although a n. brichardi colony is a treat unto itself and they'd make good feeders.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Sick.
Glad this is not a common practice.
It may even be illegal here in the UK. Funny enough we give all pets some rights under the Animal Welfare Act 2006
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/45/contents

"Under [Section] 4 of the 2006 Act it is an offence to cause unnecessary suffering to animals under the control of man."

DEFRA say that it " may be considered as causing unnecessary suffering to either the prey or, conceivably, the predator if the prey injures the predator in any struggle."

On the more practical front for every g of fish you get you have to put in 10g of food.
So wasteful as well as sick and cruel.

But I guess that's what it was posted here for.

To try and outrage folk.

Hope your glad you succeeded.

All the best James

PS I guess I should warn you that these cichlids get dorsal spines very early and this can choak suprissingly large fish to death.

Pic of an unfortunate fish that tried to eat a shelly.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> i will be setting up a 15g tank soon and just wondering which of these
> 2 fish will make a better feeder supply.


The brichardi will grow larger, more quickly, but neither will give you the numbers you need for a 'feeder' supply. You might try one of the larger lamps that have broods in the hundreds or better. Tetracanthus comes to mind.


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## front-fan (Nov 2, 2005)

I don't think I'd try to use brichardi for feeders. They are _smart_ and if you're not careful, a couple will hide long enough to spawn in your main tank. When they have fry, they can get NASTY! Before long they might take over the tank. My fronts gave the brichardi a wide berth.

Just my $0.02

--- Front-fan a.k.a. Dave


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I assumed you were growing these out in a separate tank??


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

24Tropheus said:


> Sick.
> Glad this is not a common practice.
> It may even be illegal here in the UK. Funny enough we give all pets some rights under the Animal Welfare Act 2006
> http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/45/contents
> ...


I think its both entertaining and interesting to watch predatory fish stalk prey items. In Toronto you'll never be able to unload all the offspring brichardi produce, so I think this is an intelligent way to experience the breeding practices of a fish coupled with a responsible plan for culling all the unwanted offspring. I mean fish pellets are predominantly made up of ground up fish so I'm not sure what the problem is. :lol:


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Hi Darkside. Yep it can be interesting "I think its both entertaining and interesting to watch predatory fish stalk prey items."
Someone said its fun to feed young cichlids to larger cichlids. In tanks! How much fun is that?
I for one think they should get out more. :lol: 
No problem its a silly post and should be treated as such. :thumb: 
Kind of ashamed of the heart on the sleve stuff but this stuff is kind of rubbish and in no way interesting to most cichlid keepers and breeders. Except to be careful who you sell or give your fry to.
Seems there are some sad guys who thinks feeding live cichlids to other cichlids in tanks is fun, lots of sick internet posts of vidios of this stuff if you are interested. For sure they should get a life. :thumb: 
No educational value except a rather sick source of entertainment. Far exceeded by many others. :wink: 
I guess I have to bow to your guess on what sells in Toranto or anywhere but why breed anything that is not wanted?
Go pull some wings of some flys or pop em in test tubes and heat em up until thier head explodes.
Prob keep you entertained for a while too. :wink:

All the best James


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

24Tropheus said:


> Hi Darkside. Yep it can be interesting "I think its both entertaining and interesting to watch predatory fish stalk prey items."
> Someone said its fun to feed young cichlids to larger cichlids. In tanks! How much fun is that?
> I for one think they should get out more. :lol:
> No problem its a silly post and should be treated as such. :thumb:
> ...


When I used to have my mantis shrimp there were few things more interesting than observing the power it was able to produce in order to crack the shells of different inverts. Watching ambush predators is also very interesting, leaf fish and butis being among my absolute favourites, in fact I'm thinking that if I can get some for of butis again I'll unload my trophs and get back into brackish.

Regardless of whether or not you find any enjoyment in feeding fish live food doesn't give you the right to talk down to anyone especially given how subjective this concept is. Fish eat other fish, we feed them to one another in both live and powdered form. I don't see why there would be any difference in the way you would treat a halibut over a Tropheus. Why is it sick and cruel to use cichlids as feeders when its acceptable to use RCS and the like? Why is it frowned upon to use higher vertebrates as a food source for fish? Aren't you always pushing the idea watching how cichlids act in nature? In nature predatory cichlids like Fronts eat other tangs. People are always including fry predators in setups to deal with unwanted culls, its popular in the cichlid hobby and especially among those of us who keep a lot of lamps. I have no space to grow out the fry from my breeding group of Tropheus, but with the tank full of Synodontis I don't have to worry about it.

The way you experience the hobby is your own, its subjective and what you find morally reprehensible is not the same for others. This is large, popular hobby with many different view points including those that keep predatory fish. Essentially you're killing an animal when you decide to use it as live food, but you're also condoning this same concept every time you eat a steak or a piece of pork loin. Its pretty silly the way some animals are seen as food and others as pets when in truth no animal really wants to be eaten (aside from some parasites).

If the OP doesn't mind hunting and eating meat, chances are they won't mind breeding and using live feeders as a supplement. Its all subjective and if they want to go ahead with the plan I'd suggest a brichardi type due to interesting parental behaviours and easy fry collection (no shells). They're a perfect fit for a 15 gallon aquarium.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> i will be setting up a 15g


Missed that initially. Better stick with something like the multi's. You'll both enjoy them and have an outlet for excess fry when it happens. But, like Darkside suggests, the brichardi will be easier to harvest. If you want to have a steady stream of fry, then the large lamps in a larger tank would be an option.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Hi Darkside,

"Why is it frowned upon to use higher vertebrates as a food source for fish?"

Seems that in the UK our legislators think that vertebrates in our care have the right to be looked after and not treated in a cruel way.
Must say I agree with them.
The idea I think is once we own them then there is this concept of a duty of care.
I understand that this is a very European concept and has few followers outside the more green movement animal rights types but strangely this attitude is becoming ever more common. Sorry if I appear to talk down to folk but acceptance of the practice of using vertebrates any way we feel like is I think becoming out of date, as we become more civilised.

It is stretching this a bit to say do not feed unwanted fry to other fish.
I think fry is exempt from this but I dunno why.
Tend to think, is this something one would do in front of folk one wants to have a good impression of one?
If not, then do not do it.

All the best James


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

mel_cp6 said:


> i will be setting up a 15g tank soon and just wondering which of these
> 2 fish will make a better feeder supply.
> i know its kind of harsh using tangs as feeders but i would like to enjoy watching the parents to.
> im leaning towards the multies due to the size of the tank.


Did you get the info you needed? Just trying to bring it back.  This could easily go off track into something you weren't looking for.


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

yes i did Tim. 
i think i will go towards the multies because i actually do like them and
like i mentioned before i want to enjoy the tank to.
if i dont use their offsprings as feeders, then i will have another 
tank that i can enjoy. 

no offense to any tang keeper but i am a "tang guy" myself.
*** kept malawis for a short time but been into tangs for 3yrs.

im sure big fish in the wild dies to because they bit more than they can chew.
i would rather feed my mobas clean fish than dirty feeders from the lfs.

but like i said, i may not end up doing this for the purpose of feeding my fronts.
but if i do, im not doing it for sheer entertainment.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Why else feed them live fish other than sheer entertainment? I'm actually curious, I thought the general consensus was that feeder fish are nutritionally inferior to prepared foods?


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

ahud said:


> Why else feed them live fish other than sheer entertainment? I'm actually curious, I thought the general consensus was that feeder fish are nutritionally inferior to prepared foods?


Feeders make a good supplement for predatory fish. The first ingredient it most prepared foods is fishmeal anyway. :lol:


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

ahud said:


> Why else feed them live fish other than sheer entertainment? I'm actually curious, I thought the general consensus was that feeder fish are nutritionally inferior to prepared foods?


Not inferior at all. Not sure where you heard that. I feed excess fry to larger fish. Am I entertained by it? No, not really, but if I was, it's my right and nobody's business but my own. I do enjoy watching my steatocranus go after the cherry shrimp I give them. That's kind of cool to watch. If someone thinks that's bad or weird, I don't care. I know who's morals and standards I live by, and it's never going to be those of someone from an Internet forum.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

ahud said:


> I'm actually curious, I thought the general consensus was that feeder fish are nutritionally inferior to prepared foods?


Feeding store bought Goldfish often are... the nutrition value is in what is fed to the Goldfish. If you raise your own, and feed them good foods, they'll be good feeders. It's pretty easy to see, the feeder goldfish aren't exactly a healthy fish.

Note... someone mentioned Convicts... I don't know if others have had similar experiences, but these things must not taste good, or have spiky fins.... they just don't seem to get eaten as much as other fish.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Ah, I see. Well I learned something from this thread.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> If you raise your own, and feed them good foods, they'll be good feeders.


Exactly. And that's what the OP is doing, so where I was coming from. I don't buy 'feeders'. They are truly awful fish kept in awful conditions.


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

> Exactly. And that's what the OP is doing, so where I was coming from. I don't buy 'feeders'. They are truly awful fish kept in awful conditions.


that is the main point of this thread.
trust me its not for entertainment. because *** only fed my fronts live fish twice in two years and both were from lfs. each time i did it, i got some white worm in my tank
about 2 weeks later. so i will no longer feed them fish from lfs.

but they do seem to go through a growth spurt when i do so thats why im contemplating to raise my own feeders. my mobas are 2-3 years from breeding size and i thought maybe this can help get them bigger faster.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Well I guess you should look it up. Feeders are not a good way a feeding any fish. Get em on to stuff that is better for em ASAP.
Only use feeders as a last resort to save a WC that is dieing. Even that is a step backwards. They kind of bully you into thinking this is best for em by taking only that. Bully em into taking something that is better for them ASAP like commertial foods. Its kind of hard to starve a fish for 3 weeks or so to do this but do not let the fish bully you into giving in to the short term best answer. You know that fish food is better for them. You just need to teach the fish this. Tough love I think its called. :wink:

But do please set up the multie breeding tank. Give the young away to young guys just starting out with only 10-20g tanks. We need more young folk interested in Tang cichlids long term.

All the best James


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

Back in the 90s I used to keep arowana and they went through a horrific amount of feeders on a weekly basis. Eventually I was able to train them on to pieces of cut fish like salmon, but a lot of the essential vitamins and other nutrients are stored with in the organs of fish, so the aros still need supplementation.

If you read through the ingredients of a product like NLS or Hikari you'll find an amazing amount of what is probably unnecessary ingredients, especially for piscivorous fish. Companies do this to allow the food to cover all their bases, but in the process add a lot of filler that a piscivore doesn't need. To these types of fish its like a frozen dinner, full of artificial ingredients and GMOs.

In our area (Mel's, Fogelhund's, mine...), there is no need to set up breeding tanks for Tangs as they're pretty popular fish kept by a large number of hobbyists. I gave fish away for years, good luck to anyone actually trying to sell Telmatochromis temporalis in the GTA. If you're looking for a specific Tang, chances are you'll find it here in pretty short order, we have quite a few dedicated cichlid keepers.

Piscivorous fish benefit from eating other fish, and I'm sure there's a lot more to that then anyone has researched thus far. Maybe its an appropriate PhD topic, now that I live in Guelph... 8)


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Darkside said:


> Piscivorous fish benefit from eating other fish, and I'm sure there's a lot more to that then anyone has researched thus far. Maybe its an appropriate PhD topic, now that I live in Guelph... 8)


I beg to differ. There is no evidence that Piscivorous fish benefit from eating other fish in captivity. Quite the reverse.
But then you may be reading different papers than me, :wink: 
They in the wild eat resting Cyps. 
Pleases give evidence of your assertion then just maybe if I can give the time I will give my evidence.

Are fronts natuaraly piscivourus, well yes but then they eat naturaly eat cyps resting on the bottom not shellys or anything else easy to breed.

Giving em young shellys or young brichardi is far from ideal.

Even if you can stomach such abuse.

Fish food may give em more than they need but then thats a good thing?

All the brest James


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

24Tropheus said:


> Pleases give evidence of your assertion then just maybe if I can give the time I will give my evidence.


You made the claim against commonsense to begin with, ergo its your responsibility to provide evidence to support your argument. :lol:


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

arowana need live food fronts do not and do better on other foods. It is not a matter of common sence its a matter of evidence.
Yep my ego can be a problem trying to convince folk of the bleedin obvious.  
They eat sleeping cyps in the wild and grow real slow. In tanks and breeding set ups they can grow twice as fast without live food.

All the best James


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

24Tropheus said:


> arowana need live food fronts do not and do better on other foods. It is not a matter of common sence its a matter of evidence.
> Yep my ego can be a problem trying to convince folk of the bleedin obvious.
> They eat sleeping cyps in the wild and grow real slow. In tanks and breeding set ups they can grow twice as fast without live food.
> 
> All the best James


But are these fish experiencing a better quality of life on prepared foods? Are they healthier? Is growth rate an indicator of quality of life?

The only thing obvious in this entire thread is that you're trying to support your moral standpoint with a distinct lack of evidence. opcorn:

Perhaps a mod can divide this thread for us?


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

But are these fish experiencing a better quality of life on prepared foods? 1 Yes Are they healthier? 2 yes Is growth rate an indicator of quality of life? 3 No but yep they have a better life without the diseases of the wild, so kind of yes.

The only thing obvious in this entire thread is that you're trying to support your moral standpoint with a distinct lack of evidence. opcorn:

Well kind of. But you know it makes sence. Besides the fish is unimportant in comparison to the enjoyment of the keeper.
Bit of rubbish that seems to be your thinking.

You seem to think fish enjoy the things they are subject to in the wild. I would say prove that. If they live longer lives in tanks on fish food as they do the onus is kind of on you to prove they are suffering fed on stuff that clearly makes em grow faster breed faster and live longer.

All the best James


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Given this seems like more a moral argument at this point, than anything else, and it is clear that we won't have agreement, I think it's time to let this argument drop. :thumb:


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

Fogelhund said:


> Given this seems like more a moral argument at this point, than anything else, and it is clear that we won't have agreement, I think it's time to let this argument drop. :thumb:




What type of dog is that? I've been meaning to ask you.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Darkside said:


> Fogelhund said:
> 
> 
> > Given this seems like more a moral argument at this point, than anything else, and it is clear that we won't have agreement, I think it's time to let this argument drop. :thumb:
> ...


Braque D'Auvergne. It is one of the French Pointing Breeds. He was bred to a female from Virginia today.


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

yes drop it pls.
i havent made up my mind on actually feeding them tangs but if i do, 
its my decision alone to make. 
my only question to begin with was "which would make better feeder?".
thanks for all the advice. i will take everything into consideration.
mel


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

Fogelhund said:


> Darkside said:
> 
> 
> > Fogelhund said:
> ...


Wow excellent! I myself have a Cardigan Welsh Corgi. Best of luck with the litter!


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

one more thing.
if the tank was a 30" or a 36" long, will i be able to
add another species in there along with the multies? 
will i be able to add the brichardi or a pair julidichromis gombe or even 5 enantiopus kilesas?
if i can do multies and kilesa that probably what i would do in a 36" long tank of 
maybe even a 48" tank.


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## Frazee86 (Aug 1, 2010)

Enants need a 48tank pretty sure


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

mel_cp6 said:


> one more thing.
> if the tank was a 30" or a 36" long, will i be able to
> add another species in there along with the multies?
> will i be able to add the brichardi or a pair julidichromis gombe or even 5 enantiopus kilesas?
> ...


gombi would work with multies in a 36" to 42". C.brichardi would work. N.brichardi too nasty and can kill small shellys unless the multies are already a strong breeding team. Enants tank too small to mix with Enants as they are wimps and even multies push them about.

48" tank fine as a species tank for Enants but you do not want a bottom space territory holding species with them.

All the best James


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## Mr Mbuna (Nov 16, 2007)

24Tropheus said:


> They eat sleeping cyps in the wild and *grow real slow*. In tanks and breeding set ups they can grow twice as fast without live food.


Sorry to drag this back but as a front keeper I'm curious about this point - How do you know they grow real slow in the wild? Has a study been done on this? Has someone actually monitored the growth rate of a wild fish in the lake? That would be hard to do unless it was done in captivity.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Mr Mbuna said:


> 24Tropheus said:
> 
> 
> > They eat sleeping cyps in the wild and *grow real slow*. In tanks and breeding set ups they can grow twice as fast without live food.
> ...


I think you are reading more into this than is being said. I think what is meant, is they eat Cyp in the wild.... and they grow slow in captivity.

Not sure what is behind they grow faster without live food, haven't seen any studies on frontosa for that.


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## Vtwin60 (Sep 21, 2007)

front-fan said:


> I don't think I'd try to use brichardi for feeders. They are _smart_ and if you're not careful, a couple will hide long enough to spawn in your main tank. When they have fry, they can get NASTY! Before long they might take over the tank. My fronts gave the brichardi a wide berth.
> 
> Just my $0.02
> 
> --- Front-fan a.k.a. Dave


This has been my experience as well. Fronts do not take well to aggressive and mean brichardi, even if they are less than half the size. The teeth on a Brichardi can do some serious damage.


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## Mr Mbuna (Nov 16, 2007)

FogelhundI think you are reading more into this than is being said. I think what is meant said:


> In my experience (as a front breeder for several years) fronts grow quite fast in captivity reaching 5" in about 1 year, fed on a diet of pellets and other regular fish food. James24T is suggesting that they grow much slower in the wild on a diet of cyps. I'm just curious as to the foundation of this statement i.e. whether its an opinion or based on an actual study.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

No sorry. I did promice a mod I would let this thread die. But I have to answer direct questions?
What I meant is fronts in captivity will grow faster on foods designed for this than fronts in captivity fed on just live food. (I just mentioned sleeping Cyps as the natural diet)
No I do not think there has been a study. I do not think one is needed, as the results are guessable without any trials.

All the best James


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

Mr Mbuna said:


> In my experience (as a front breeder for several years) fronts grow quite fast in captivity reaching 5" in about 1 year, fed on a diet of pellets and other regular fish food. James24T is suggesting that they grow much slower in the wild on a diet of cyps. I'm just curious as to the foundation of this statement i.e. whether its an opinion or based on an actual study.


Its all conjecture at this point. Some people feel their fronts do better on prepared food, some feel they do better with live food supplemented into their diet. I'm not sure what effect live food has on growth rates but I do know where the idea originates from. Certain fish like tetras, danios, killies... etc. require live food to bring them into breeding condition. Comparatively cichlids are an easy fish to breed and will do so without much in the way of supplementation. Tetras, barbs and the like will not come into breeding condition without the enrichment of live foods and even corydoras usually require something special to get them in the mood. The general consensus is that if fish are breeding they're being kept in decent conditions and that this live food supplement partly responsible for bringing them into optimal "health."

If cichlids are like the other types of fish then it follows that frontosa and other piscivores probably benefit from the same supplementation. The other point to the dependence on fully artificially prepared foods is one of bio-availability. Just because a prepared pellet or flake has certain different ingredients in a specific ratio doesn't mean that the fish is able to optimally absorb all the nutrients contained in the food. Since when is it natural for a front to consume apricots and cabbage (NLS)? For fish like fronts these ingredients are unnatural, unnecessary and probably not even bio-available, they're getting by eating the product on the merits of fish and crustacean meal that are also included in the pellet.

The bottom line is if you're happy with the way your fish are looking and behaving then you don't need to change your feeding regime, but if you think it could be better, then by all means try some live food. In my experience fish benefit greatly from the addition of live foods, be it aquatic insects, fish or otherwise. I'm of the opinion that live food provides some important compounds that are destroyed or changed through the drying and baking process that is used to stabilize dry foods. In a way its like eating fresh food is healthier than eating frozen dinners or ramen bowls.


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