# Fishless Cycle-



## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

This is the first on I have ever attempted..

Have kept ammonia @ 2 PPM for 7 straight days...

Based on everyone's experience - at what point do you recall measuring nitrites?

None so far in mine. Normal?


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

cantrell00 said:


> None so far in mine. Normal?


Assuming you've set up the cycle correctly, this sounds normal. It usually takes a couple of weeks or longer for ammonia to drop and nitrites to spike (depending on a multitude of factors).


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

It does vary. On my first tank, I had falling ammonia and nitrite readings in just 3 days Ã¢â‚¬â€œ and then it took 5 full weeks for the @$#! Nitrite portion of the cycle to complete :lol: . On a stubborn hospital tank, it was two very long weeks before I saw any measurable progress at all. My other tanks have all been somewhere in-between those two extremes.

I also had one tank that seemed to be Ã¢â‚¬Å"stuckÃ¢â‚¬Â


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

I had aquariums off & on for 5-6 years.

Started with a 29 gallon community tank of just about everything you could imagine. You know the deal. Moved up to a 75 gallon & dabbled with mbuna. Upgraded to a 135 & had great success. It was truly a "mixed" mbuna & everything else, including fronts. Hybrids galore & completely out of control..

The first tank is the only tank I have ever fully cycled. Each succeeding tank was established using the bio-colonies from the last one.

That first tank was 10+ years ago & memory of the whole process is very fuzzy to say the least.

I don't remember any specifics but I do recall it taking forever to see progress but once I did - it took off.

Cycled it usind 8-10 serpae tetras.


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## Grafx (Nov 8, 2010)

I saw nitrites on day 9


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Based on everyone's experience - at what point do you recall measuring nitrites?


10 days is typical before ammonia drops to 0 and you start getting nitrites, then a good 21 before nitrites drop to 0. Nitrites, when they drop, drop suddenly, so don't get discouraged. I only test every 2-3 days for nitrites.

Once ammonia drops to 0, add enough to only bring it back up to 1ppm and only every other day. Don't push too much ammonia. Nothing to gain and can only lengthen the time needed to complete. If you really need to beef up the bacteria, dose extra at the end once cycled and wait for nitrite to again drop to 0. It should only take 24 hours. Do a water change or two to reduce nitrates, check nitrites again, and add fish within a few days or so of last ammonia dose. The bacteria will not die off if you don't immediately get fish in the tank.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

14 days for me. nothing.... nothing... nothing... then boom, all nitrites and no ammonia. Then another 20-ish days until the cycle completed. 5-6 weeks total.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Thanks guys..

I am finding someone close to me that is willing to let me bag some used filter media..

6 weeks will not work.

Maybe the scientist's would be best served to work on bottling patience?


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## wlyons9856 (Sep 16, 2010)

I cycled my 90G with no pre existing established media in 13 days. I got lucky I believe, average time I believe is around three weeks, established media should knock off some days for you.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

My 125 with my FX5 (using Seachem Matrix, Seachem Safestart) in about 2 weeks
(I had a few fish in there providing the ammonia too)


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

cantrell00 said:


> Thanks guys..
> 
> I am finding someone close to me that is willing to let me bag some used filter media..
> 
> ...


Have you considered overnighting some Dr. Tim's? Never tried it myself but I've heard good things.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

I think I got my 125 up in 2-3 weeks. I used Seachem Safe Start for 1 week, then added 2-4 fish over the next week. I then transfered all my young cichlids from my 35 to the 125.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

I began the process with Dr Tim's. For whatever variety of reasons, nothing seemed to happen.

He has ben working with me on getting it going.

Graciously (ABSOLUTELY KILLER CUSTOMER SERVICE), he sent me another dose. It went in Friday around 4:30 PM.

As of yesterday afternoon, no measurable increase in nitrites. Still early though..

I have close to 50 fish on order with a delivery date of 12/24.

It is driving me nuts waiting, thus the quip about scientists bottling patience. I would be the poster child, for sure.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Glaneon said:


> I think I got my 125 up in 2-3 weeks. I used Seachem Safe Start for 1 week, then added 2-4 fish over the next week. I then transfered all my young cichlids from my 35 to the 125.


I checked my Excel chart - 15 days from tank start to adding fish.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Ok... New info...

Started the tank day after Thanksgiving, Friday Nov. 26th. Brought the Amm. to 2.0 PPM & dosed the tank with 8.0 oz. of One & Only

Day 1, amm - 0, nitrite - 0, nitrate 0
Day 2 - same
Day 3 - same
Day 4 - same
Day 5 - same
Day 6 - same
Day 7 - same - 4.0 oz "super dose" added

Day 8 (Saturday) - same - Moved water & gravel from my wifes 1 gallon betta tank. .25 PPM amm, nitrites 5.0 PPM+, nitrates 50 PPM. There was definitely plenty of both types of bacteria in the tank. Small volume but definitely there. I also bought 4 - 1" mixed hybrids (junk) from the local Petsmart. I wanted to verify that the tank itself was not toxic due to something possibly leaching into the water from the rocks, substrate or possibly the silicone I originally put into the tank. I was fearful that the presence of a toxin may have wiped out the 1st attempt of the Dr Tim's. The fish are fine after 3 days & show ZERO signs of stress despite the 2.0 PPM ammonia.

Day 9 - same

Day 10 - Amm-2.0, nitrites-0, nitrates- greater than 5 but less than 10 PPM.

Now, here are my questions (will link this over to Dr Tim's forum also)

Should I not be seeing nitrites first?
Is it possible that the 2nd set of bacteria (nitrite to nitrate) are much more concentrated than the 1st set (ammonia to nitrite)?
Or could it be that the second set (assuming the same size colony) are just much more efficient and are literally waiting on the ammonia to nitrite conversion.
Based on your XLS log - did you ever see nitrates prior to any nitrite? It would seem that they would occur in chronological order - right?

Cold in Ft Mill too? Man - I am friggin freezin in Chucktown.

Thanks for the help...


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Gonna be 17Ã‚Â°F in the morning! (record is 14)

You could have brought over that nitrate from the wife's betta bowl... but .. 1 gallon out of .. how much you got now?

Sorry for the almost duplicate post... I remembered the thread, forgot I had posted  (at least it was consistent information!)

Not sure how much the fish will show in 3 days of ammonia.. maybe a week in the same...

In my other tanks I had used media from existing tanks so I had no start up time... but the 125 was so big I figured whatever I did put in would only help a little. I also had learned about the fishless cycle on here and wanted to try it


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

120 gallon tank is being cycled...

I dumped the entire contents of her betta tank (less than a gallon) into the sump of my wet-dry (well after removing her fish) :lol:

Plus the newest batch of One & Only 48 hrs prior to that. Basically - everything but the kitchen sink is being thrown at getting this tank cycled.

No way that the concentration of nitrates would be measurable once diluted into 150+ gallons of water (including the sump). The colony had to multiply or you would think???

I checked the water parameters again Sunday. 24 hours after putting the betta tank in & nitrites & nitrates were 0.

Yeah - I agree on the long term exposure deal. I hate it for the guys & feel kinda bad about it. That is why I bought what I know to be hybrid stock. It is afterall for the greater good. 

Who knows - maybe they survive it & get a small tank of their own in my son's room in a couple of weeks.

Gonna continue to monitor it... If I am lucky enough to see nitrates increase at the expense of ammonia, I may be closer than I think. The 4 anubias in the tank may be contributing to some of the inconsitencies also. They are probably just now getting adjusted & trying to climb out of their funk from being transplanted.

Glad I have the forum too... Serves quite well as a cycle activity log. :thumb:

Anything below 50 degrees is too **** cold!


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## MonteSS (Dec 8, 2008)

I see on your list that day 1-9 you read 0 amonia. I assume this is a typo. If you started the tank at 2 ppm amo, you should be showwing amo. If not add more. Are you using the correct type of amo? Dump more in to get 5-10ppm. This will support a bigger bio-load when you add all thoose new fish. Are you testing with strips or drops?

Get used filter media from a shop or friend. This makes a HUGE difference, especially if you are in a hurry. There is very little beneficial bacteria in used water to start a colony.

Dr Tims supposedly works. Never tried it. Once again, it needs amonia and oxygen to feed it.

GL....Bill


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Good catch...

Yes - has been 2.0 PPM all along. I actually think the ammonia dropped some with this nitrate reading today. Will know more in the next couple of days.

I checked the nitrates three times & each time it was the same. I know the order of how this is suppose to transpire & going from 0 nitrite to 5-10PPM nitrate overnight doesn't make sense for a variety of reasons.

The only thing I can guess is that the ammonia - nitrite conversion is getting exhausted by the nitrate colony at such a rate that I can't get a nitrite reading. Well, atleast I hope that is what is happening. Only time will tell.

If nothing else - it is progress. As for the fish surviving in 2.0 PPM ammonia - they must be some extremely hardy fish. I am positive of the ammonia reading. Hopefully, it will be 1.0 tomorrow or Wednesday.

As for the existing colony & Dr Tims, I added a second dose of One & Only Friday PM & added the contents of a 1 gallon betta tank Saturday. The reading of the betta tank was .25 am, 5.0 + of nitrites (above my scale) & 30-40 PPM nitrates when I dumped the entire contents of the tank in the sump of my wet-dry.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Liquid test kit...


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## MonteSS (Dec 8, 2008)

MonteSS said:


> Dump more in to get 5-10ppm. This will support a bigger bio-load when you add all thoose new fish. Are you testing with strips or drops?
> 
> ill


Woops....Meant to say 3-5ppm amo.

...Bill


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Yeah.. That seemed kinda high. I assumed a typo..


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Tuesday - Amm 2.0, Nitrites - 0, Nitrates - 10-15 PPM

Apparently the nitrate producing colony are still processing nitrites as fast as they are being created.

Seems like the nitrates at some point would grow at the expense of the ammonia unless the fish (food, waste, etc) are offsetting the difference.

They really show NO signs of stress. Almost to the point that I am questioning the accuracy of the 2.0 PPM ammonia.. Would feel better if I saw atleast a 1.0 PPM drop over 24 hours.

Gonna give it til Friday before I check anything again...


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Well. Checked it anyway...

Ammonia last night was 1.0, not 2.0

As for tonight:

Ammonia .50, nitrites - 0, nitrates - 30 PPM

At what point to I need to swap some water & reduce the nitrates?


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

You can do that now... 50% water change
Add ammonia or safe-start after the change.

You're almost there


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Certainly seems that way...

I gotta get these 4 guys out of the tank. I just can't in good conscious expose them to 2.0 PPM again. Taking them back to Petsmart. They served their purpose.

The wife won't be happy though.. She has named them.

Maybe the most diplomatic thing to do would be to parlay this into another tank? :wink:

Would be her's of course... :lol:


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Oh yeah.. if you have fish.. let them stay.. They're providing the ammonia for the tank.

As long as there is a source after the water change, you're good.

That's funny, I told my kids & my wife- you don't name fish!

Now, we've named our turtles, but that's a bit different


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

I am in a dilemma with them somewhat..

The amount of ammonia they (and their food, etc) are producing is neglible as far as the overall goal in concerned. Only 4 -1" fish in a 120 gallon tank doesn't represent much ammonia at all diluted into 120 gallons..

I need to simulate a bio-load of 50- 1" fish (mbuna) that will be arriving 12/24. I also need to prove that a nitrifying colony is present that can process that load into nitrate in 24 hours.

I think I need 2-3 PPM in the tank consistently to achieve that.

I don't want to put the fish through that so I will relocate them to a 10 gallon in the stand. It isn't cycled either but I can do water changes to keep the ammonia at bay til I figure out what I am going to do with them long term. They can't stay in 120.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Fair enough.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Ammonia dropped again to .25 - Nitrates are up some but hard to tell.. Closer to red than orange..

Moving the 4 fish to the 10 tomorrow. Will change some water on the 120 & raise the ammonia to 2.0. See what happens..

Wash, rinse, repeat...


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Well...

Moved the 4 fish from the main tank to the 10 gallon...

Raised the ammonia to 2.0 PPM - 24 hours later, .50

Nitrates are up to 40 PPM..

Will change some water & get the nitrates down. Raise back up to 2.0 & repeat..

A 1.5 PPM drop is encouraging though..


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Definitely sounds good.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

How do you like your albino scolofi?

They are one of my group. Along with Demasoni, psuedo flavus, msobo & red top trewvasae


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

They're slow growing - but I like them. They'll look considerably prettier in the tank once they get bigger.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Checked again tonight. No nitr*i*tes til now. 1.0 PPM

I guess I should chill on the ammonia for awhile? Haven't had a trace of nitites the whole time. Has been cycling 3 weeks & 2 days.

I have a feeling they will be higher tomorrow. We'll see.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

If it's going from 
Ammonia straight to Nitrates.. then it sounds like you have the colony required for nitrIte to nitrAte.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

I think what happened is I got a tad overzealous with the Ammonia..

For three days, I was raising the ammonia in .5 increments, 1.0 - 2.0 - 3.0.

Each night if you recall, it was progressively converting ammonia into nitrate within .5 of what was added.

After I raised it to 3.0, the nitrite appeared. I think I basically outpaced my colony's ability to process. The nitrate converting bacteria got bogged down @ anything above 2.0.

Checked it again tonight.. Amm is barely .25, nitrite still at 1.0 & the nitrates were at close to 50 PPM. I also did a 25% change Saturday night - just prior to the 3.0 & the nitrite spike.

I changed 25% & *didn't* add any ammonia. I plan on doing the same tomorrow night. Hopefully by Wednesday night, I can add ammonia again. Just need the nitrites to go away.

I think I could add fish now.. There is no way 50 juvies will generate in excess of 2.0 PPM ammonia in a 120 gallon tank in 24 hours, roughly the equivalent of what the colony can handle.

Fish don't arrive til 12/24 so I am just going through the paces anyway. I can be conservative til they get here. I found a breaking point too - which is good, assuming you can regulate the result. Steady at 1.0 nitrite for 24 hours implies that I can.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Roger that. Just every few days.

Just make sure no nitrites before adding fish. (which you knew)


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

1.0 still this AM


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

.25 nitrite... Raised ammonia back up to 1.0 PPM

Close enough to 0 for me...


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Last nights reading... .25 AMM, .50 Nit, 50 PPM Nitrate

Did a water change, Nitrate 20 PPM after.

Dosed ammonia back to 2.0


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Well... 2.0 Nitrite - .25 ammonia.

Is this thing moving in the right direction? Ammonia to nitrate for a week with no nitrite & then [email protected] All of a sudden nitrites.

Geez. Time is starting to run short on that 12/24 fish date.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

You're testing too frequently as this point.

Depends on how much ammonia you're dosing - but if you're expecting a load of fish, dosing to 2ppm ammonia is probably a good thing.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

I am ... 50 total. 1-2" fish. But into 150 gallons of water if you include the sump.

Maybe I should heed your advise & wait til Saturday before pulling any more measurements.

It does have me out of sorts though. I am accustomed to adding fish gradually which allows the colony to grow over a longer time span.

I wished I knew what the ammonia output of 50 - 1.5" mbuna would be. I would feel alot better if I knew that it was less than 1.0 PPM / 24 hrs.

One thing is certain, the bacterial colony grows faster than the fish.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Ok.. Looks like we are done here... Fish arrive Thursday..


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

You getting 2ppm down in 24-48 hours?


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Yeah... In the words of Jerry Garcia. "What a long strange trip it has been"..

1.5 actually. Good enough...


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