# Real Flowerhorn? pics



## boose1357 (Jan 14, 2008)

I just went to the lfs and bought what they said was a flowerhorn. for the year *** been in the fish biz *** never seen one in any lfs around here so i was wondering if this is a real flowerhorn? the pics are not that great b/c he was in the bag still but i think there good enough to tell if its a FH or not. and my other ? is are flowerhorns hybrids? well thx for the help.


----------



## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

yes, that is a flowerhorn, and yes, they are hybrids. your flowerhorn is a ZZ (Zhen Zhu) type.


----------



## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

Pretty little guy.


----------



## Joels fish (Nov 17, 2007)

Very cool , but they can be evil little farts.


----------



## boose1357 (Jan 14, 2008)

awesome thx. i plan on keeping him in a species only tank, So he will have a 55g to himself.


----------



## Joels fish (Nov 17, 2007)

you might want to consider a 75 or bigger before too long. My brief experience with them is that they grow FAST. Mine grew about an inch a month.


----------



## cc_woman (Jan 31, 2008)

Looks like a FH to me. Flowerhorns have been cross bred so many times, they do not know the types of original fish they used to start creating them. Unfortunately all the cross breeding caused them to be extremely aggressive, and can wipe out any tank mates. A species only tank is the best thing for them, and they grow fairly large so I would also suggest a slightly larger tank eventually. I have heard of flowerhorns breaking through glass before and shattering tanks, so I would give them plenty of space to swim.


----------



## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

A â€œFlowerHornâ€


----------



## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

That's not entirely true. When they were first being created, they were almost always part trimac. At this point, there are plenty of variants out there that have no trimac whatsoever. And they're not necessarily all CA species either - there's plenty of SA species that could be and probably are in the mix of some.


----------



## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

What is the most widely accepted definition of a FlowerHorn?

Does anyone know where we can see pictures of FlowerHorns that do not contain Trimac? Every one Iâ€™ve ever seen looks more like a Trimac than any other naturally occurring fish and every web site Iâ€™ve seen states they are made of a Trimac & Red devil base.

Iâ€™m not saying your wrongâ€¦ just pointing out your additions arenâ€™t completely consistent with what Iâ€™m reading elsewhereâ€¦


----------



## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

I don't know if they are sold like this elsewhere, but around here super red texas are sold as 'super red texas flowerhorns' and I don't believe the super red texas mutt has trimac in it. It would count since the 'f-word' is just a common name if it does indeed lack trimac ... not 100% sure though since I don't really pay attention to the differant mixes.


----------



## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

yea but just because some joker uses the "F word" to describe his fish, that doesn't mean said joker is accurate...

Just because I call my truck a Ferrari, that doesn't make it an Italian Sports Car...

I asked about the definition of FlowerHorn because in a quick 10 minute search I found all sorts of info... but not a definition... But obviously in 10 minutes I skipped a TON of input...


----------



## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

> Just because I call my truck a Ferrari, that doesn't make it an Italian Sports Car...


True ... very true ... makes you crazy but doesn't make it a Ferrari!! 

The way I understand it though, the f-word is the common name with the strain names being the equivelant of the scientific names (gage would know more of course). If that's the case, then it comes down to another 'common names are bad' arguement.

Again, not sure how the whole f-word culture reacts to that, or even if it holds true, just throwing it out there.


----------



## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

dwarfpike said:


> > Just because I call my truck a Ferrari, that doesn't make it an Italian Sports Car...
> 
> 
> True ... very true ... makes you crazy but doesn't make it a Ferrari!!


Well I did wear the nic name "NutCase" for several years around here... you should have almost expected that


----------



## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

SinisterKisses said:


> That's not entirely true. When they were first being created, they were almost always part trimac. At this point, there are plenty of variants out there that have no trimac whatsoever. And they're not necessarily all CA species either - there's plenty of SA species that could be and probably are in the mix of some.


there are a lot of variants that do not include trimac now, but his definitely does.

the variants that dont include trimac are:

Super Red Texas (SRT) (Carpintis x King Kong Parrot)
Rainbow King (RBK) (Vieja Synspilum x King Kong Parrot)
Red Monkey/Super Red Synspilum (RM/SRS) (unknown, i tend to think it is a Red Mammon Parrot x Kokky Midas, but who knows)
Rose Queen (RQ) (Midas x Synspilum)

theres more but ill stop there

the Ones created WITH trimac:

Zhen Zhu (ZZ)
Kamfa (KF) (ZZ x King Kong or Blood Parrot)
Zhen Zhu Malau (ZZM) (a perfected ZZ)
Gold Monkey (GM) (an American Bred ZZM)
Red Dragon (RD) (it is a color strain of ZZ, this is what you have)

Then you get into the Indo ZZ, Indo Kamfa and that, thats just where they were bred, and each have there own specific traits


----------



## heylady (Oct 14, 2004)

Thank you Gage for posting that!!! :thumb: I have been having trouble keeping the different strains in my head (and what made the strains different) and your list really helps!!! Awesome!!!   

And Boose, that's a really nice looking FH you have there!! :thumb: Can't wait to see it as an adult!!


----------



## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

Oh, of course, there's no doubt that this FH in particular does have the Trimac background...was just making a general statement that not every flowerhorn varient does.


----------



## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

So what is the most commonly accepted definition of "FlowerHorn" ?


----------



## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

Toby_H said:


> So what is the most commonly accepted definition of "FlowerHorn" ?


what do you mean by a definition? LOL


----------



## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

gage said:


> Toby_H said:
> 
> 
> > So what is the most commonly accepted definition of "FlowerHorn" ?
> ...


If a word doesnâ€™t have a definition, then it doesnâ€™t mean anythingâ€¦ A word with no meaning is just a useless soundâ€¦

Iâ€™m of the impression that the word FlowerHorn has such loose parameters that it really has no meaning.

If we add SRT and/or some of the Parrot fish hybrids into the category of â€œFlowerHornâ€


----------



## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

i guess i good definition would be a hybrid made with Central American cichlids to be a show fish with high aggression i suppose, never really thought of a definition for the name though.

when it comes to SRT, RBK, SRS, etc, those technically are not classified flowerhorn, they are merely a hybrid that was perfected by the flowerhorn hobbiests, a flowerhorn can not be made with just 2 individual sp of fish (Parrots count as a single sp in this situation, not a mix of 2)

none of the fish that are pure breds crossed with a parrot are classified as flowerhorns, unless the person that owns it doesnt know any better, then they call it a flowerhorn, and therefore the confusion comes up.

a lot of people just assume that a hybrid with a parrot, or even just any hybrid is classified a flowerhorn...they are wrong, ill make a list of the true flowerhorns below for you (the ones i can remember anyway )

Zhen Zhu 
Kamfa 
Zhen Zhu Malau 
Gold Monkey
Red Dragon
Indo Malau
Indo Kamfa
King Kamfa
King Bacara (no longer bred, one of my favorites...)

i suppose to be classified a flowerhorn it also has to have some form of trimaculatus ancestry in there aswell.

if you would like, sign up on flowerhorns.org (now known as flowerhorncraze.com) and post the question there, some of the people there will be able to give you a much better answer then myself.

any more questions?


----------



## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Toby_H said:


> If a word doesnâ€™t have a definition, then it doesnâ€™t mean anythingâ€¦ A word with no meaning is just a useless soundâ€¦
> 
> Iâ€™m of the impression that the word FlowerHorn has such loose parameters that it really has no meaning.


Bingo! Common names are essentially meaningless gibberish. Flowerhorn is a term loosely assigned to a huge range of fish... at one time, only Trimac hybrids deserved the name, but as soon as non-trimac hybrids were included and this passed without challenge, I could now market ANY fish as a Flowerhorn and I cannot be wrong! :lol:

Flowerhorn now includes any large, colorful tank buster hybrids of cichlid origin. :thumb:


----------



## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

So earlierâ€¦


gage said:


> there are a lot of variants that do not include trimac now, but his definitely does.
> 
> the variants that dont include trimac are:
> 
> ...


But nowâ€¦


gage said:


> i suppose to be classified a flowerhorn it also has to have some form of trimaculatus ancestry in there aswell.


Andâ€¦


gage said:


> when it comes to SRT, RBK, SRS, etc, those technically are not classified flowerhorn, they are merely a hybrid that was perfected by the flowerhorn hobbiests, a flowerhorn can not be made with just 2 individual sp of fish (Parrots count as a single sp in this situation, not a mix of 2)


So earlier in this thread when I said FlowerHorns had Trimac in themâ€¦ you guys told me I was wrong that not all of them didâ€¦ now youâ€™re telling me I was rightâ€¦

See the confusion that results in a word without a definitionâ€¦


----------



## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

Toby_H said:


> So earlierâ€¦
> 
> 
> gage said:
> ...


you were right then, no need to pick this to pieces. any fish that is crossed with only 2 different fish can NOT be a flowerhorn, clear? and besides, i didnt even see your post indicating you saying that they all contain trimac, i havent really been following the post.

i didnt really pay attention to the fact that i had called them all flowerhorns because honestly, i didnt think anyone on here would know anyway, so i required less explanation to just say "variants".


----------



## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Gage, I donâ€™t get itâ€¦ Iâ€™m not picking anything apart I just tried to get an answer to a questionâ€¦ then you gave conflicting responses. Then to make it worse there are others who agree with each of your opposing opinionsâ€¦ Iâ€™m not picking it a part, you made it confusing and Iâ€™m trying to make sense out of nonsenseâ€¦

If you didnâ€™t know why did you present such detailed guesses presented as facts? Speculation like that isnâ€™t helpful to anyone.

But in the endâ€¦ Iâ€™m with #6 on this one. Since no one can provide a commonly accepted definition to the word â€œFlowerHornâ€


----------



## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

what do you mean if i didnt know, if i didnt know what? everything *** said, besides the mistake about calling these crosses flowerhorns has been true, so what is it that i didnt know?

#6 is incorrect it saying that any hybrid could be classified a flowerhorn, it needs to look a certain way to be classified a flowerhorn.

ok for the final time, IGNORE MY OTHER POST ABOUT THE SRS, RBK, AND THE LIKE BEING FLOWERHORNS, this is what you are picking to pieces Toby, i already said multiple times my mistake and you keep telling me i dont know what im talking about and quite frankly it is driving me insane, this is why i dislike this forum, because everyone on here will take someones mistake and keep telling them "but you said..." even after they explained they had made a mistake.

*a commonly excepted definition for flowerhorn is a hybrid between many CA cichlids bred for color and aggression, what more do you want, anyone who owns/knows anything about flowerhorns can agree with this.* how many times must i type this, i might as well just start copying and pasting it :lol:

no one can give you the complete definition of flowerhorn because no one (except the creaters) knows what they used to make it, the only known fact is that it started with Trimac and Midas, from there they have added multiple unknown things, they probably started with a bunch of Amphilophus spp in the beginning, then after is is probable that they used carpintis, but again this is not fact, it is just a thought.

please re-type your individual questions so i can answer them and know exactly what your questions are, i WILL answer them, and i will make sure i make no mistakes in wording this time now that i know it causes this BS to happen.


----------



## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

My question is simple and has been consistentâ€¦

What is the commonly accepted definition of a FlowerHorn.

So far youâ€™ve given conflicting answers and asked me what a definition isâ€¦ Thanks for the helpâ€¦ Iâ€™ll find my answers from someone elseâ€¦

Sheeeeshâ€¦


----------



## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

*a commonly excepted definition for flowerhorn is a hybrid between many CA cichlids bred for color, nuchal hump, and aggression*

*** given this exact answer 3 times now, what more do you want, this is the common definition.

i just wanted to know how to define a name given to a fish, to me the question was like asking for a definition on the name Green Terror, what are you going to tell me? exactly, stupid question.

im sick of this arguement, *** given you the answer multiple times and you wont except it, im done with this.


----------



## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

gage said:


> *a commonly excepted definition for flowerhorn is a hybrid between many CA cichlids bred for color, nuchal hump, and aggression*


Gee thanksâ€¦ so Gage has confirmed for me that my HRP/Convict cross is a Flowerhornâ€¦

But of course it isnâ€™tâ€¦ because your answer is wrongâ€¦ as have all of your answers to my questionâ€¦ because you donâ€™t knowâ€¦

And after a good bit of research it seems there is no definitionâ€¦ So the answer to my question â€œWhat is the commonly accepted definition of a FlowerHorn?â€


----------



## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

many cichlids, many buddy, many does not equal 2, i tryed my best to answer your question and all i get is **** on for it, i give up, you will not except any answer i give you, or try to help out with elaborating it, so why do i bother.

a HRP/Convict is NOT a fish bred for color, nuchal hump, and aggression... but WTG though.


----------



## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

this all comes down to how do you define a name of a fish, seriously buddy, define Green Terror for me, or maybe define Midas.

how the fuck do you define a name.


----------



## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

My Con/HRP has more color in it than my Convicts... It also has a more prominent nuchal hump than my Convicts... and is the dominant/most aggressive fish in the community tank it is in... even more so than itâ€™s own mother and itâ€™s own fatherâ€¦

Dude according to your 'definition' it is a FlowerHorn... other than it isn't made of "many"... but how many does it need? So a Midas/Trimac cross isn't a FlowerHorn because it's only made up of two species? Your answers are full of holes... just say you don't know and drop it... and quite making stuff upâ€¦ again such speculation helps no oneâ€¦


----------



## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

i didnt say a trimac and midas made a flowerhorn, i said it was the first step in making flowerhorns.

why would i say i dont know, i just dont know all the little details, not many people do, only the breeders do.


----------



## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

For what itâ€™s worthâ€¦ Gage and I took our debate to PM and quickly understood one anotherâ€™s perspective. I canâ€™t say we agreed, but we understood one another which in my opinion is even better than agreeing. We also clarified why we were pushing the points we were pushingâ€¦ and again quickly came to a friendly understandingâ€¦

lol, but I still donâ€™t have a definition or something comparable to a â€œspecies descriptionâ€


----------



## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

it really doesnt lol, i mean, if you want to dig deep into the true breeders of flowerhorn in places like Malaysia, Vietnam, Thailand, and Indonesia be my guest, im not attempting it for you


----------



## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

*Field Trip!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

lol...nah, honestly, the only reason why i dont care to look it up is because i have really gotten out of flowerhorns, the whole quality on a living creature bothers me now, how can you put a higher price on somethings life because it had an uglier tumor on its head...really, they all deserve equal IMO, which is why i got out of it.


----------



## LJ (Sep 12, 2007)

I was doing some research in China, Vietnam and Thailand this summer and saw many curbside Flowerhorn breeding projects. I have some pictures somewhere that I will post if I can find them. The fishkeeping conditions over there in general, were poor, i.e., many arowanas crammed into a small tank....makes my keeping two dempseys in a 55 seem generous.


----------



## boose1357 (Jan 14, 2008)

Hey, just out of curiosity does anyone know the definition of a Flowerhorn?


----------



## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

boose1357 said:


> Hey, just out of curiosity does anyone know the definition of a Flowerhorn?


 :lol:

Trouble maker...


----------



## Joea (May 25, 2004)

I don't normally post in here but I read this thread with a smile because it echos a debate that pops up from time to time in the African cichlid world.

A common African hybrid on the market is an albino form Peacock that is a mix of unknown origin. Many different names have been given to this fish including Strawberry Peacock, Firefish, Tangerine and Poseidon and many argue that there are specific traits that define each of those names, which is total nonsense.

The fact is, that pure species have specific scientific names given to them in order to classify them as a species. Once that species has been mixed with another, all scientific terminology used to class this fish is moot. Calling it anything, whether it be Flowerhorn, Firefish or Super-Duper-Rocket-Powered-Magic-Laser-Shooting-Fish is neither correct or incorrect. Just like calling your dog "Fido" isn't correct or incorrect.

In short, trade names are useless.

Sure, it's a Flowerhorn. He gets big. Enjoy him.


----------



## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

boose1357 said:


> Hey, just out of curiosity does anyone know the definition of a Flowerhorn?


LOL...


----------



## boose1357 (Jan 14, 2008)

haha just pickin dudes!


----------

