# Demosanis are dying one by one!



## grownwrong (Aug 12, 2014)

I started with 12 Demo's in August for a brand new tank. In the last 10 days I've found 4 dead, and now another is sitting on the bottom acting very lethargic. No sign of physical damage on the dead at all.

What should I be looking for as a culprit? 
I tested water, water changes keep the Nitrates at 20ppm or less. 
Temp is 80. 
The Yellow Labs and White Labs seem fine. pH is approx 8.1.

Thanks 
(if more information is needed for an educated guess, please ask!)

55gal
5 Yellow Labs
6 White Labs
3 Psydonis Cats
12... now 8 Demos


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## pfoster74 (May 13, 2012)

I do not keep demasoni but I have read alot about them, my understanding is to start with 12 - 15 and expect some losses, is the dominant male killing other males or perhaps may be an illness in the tank since you are not seeing damage to dead fish. i would observe them look for things like ich or parasites on the fish things like that. I personally do 50% weekly water changes and I have removed carbon from filters. I run crushed coral and bio rings in my filters I rinse out cartridges weekly in fish water buckets and shake out the coral and bio-rings weekly in fish water waste bucket never replace filters and media for best results.


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## grownwrong (Aug 12, 2014)

Thanks for the input. Their behavior or social structure is a complete mystery to me. They are all very shy and I never see them all at the same time. I have no idea who the dominant male is or even how many males/females I have!?! I bought them very small in August. The other species haven't shown any deaths which makes me doubt disease... Bloat maybe?!? (one catfish was eaten down to the spine 6 weeks ago)

I do 20% - 80% water changes every Sunday. I cleaned the canister media once over a month ago in tank water. I have a Ehiem rated for a 90 gal tank on my 55 gal. No carbon filters ever used. Never more than 0.25ppm Ammonia and always 0ppm Nitrites. I've read all the advise on this forum in great detail as to not make any obvious mistakes. Lots of Texas Holy Rock and a large grain cichlid sand substrate for buffers.

Guess when I get home tonight I'll see if this little fella made it through the day?


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## nmcichlid-aholic (Mar 23, 2011)

grownwrong said:


> Thanks for the input. Their behavior or social structure is a complete mystery to me. They are all very shy and I never see them all at the same time. I have no idea who the dominant male is or even how many males/females I have!?! I bought them very small in August. The other species haven't shown any deaths which makes me doubt disease... Bloat maybe?!? (one catfish was eaten down to the spine 6 weeks ago)
> 
> I do 20% - 80% water changes every Sunday. I cleaned the canister media once over a month ago in tank water. I have a Ehiem rated for a 90 gal tank on my 55 gal. No carbon filters ever used. Never more than 0.25ppm Ammonia and always 0ppm Nitrites. I've read all the advise on this forum in great detail as to not make any obvious mistakes. Lots of Texas Holy Rock and a large grain cichlid sand substrate for buffers.
> 
> Guess when I get home tonight I'll see if this little fella made it through the day?


Something Is Going On - Your Ammonia Should Always Be Zero, Along With Nitrites. Nitrates Would Preferably Be Down In The 5-10 Range, With 20 Ppm Being The Higher End Of The Acceptable Level. Maybe Prolonged Exposure To Ammonia Is Finally Starting To Take A Toll On The Dems, Particularly Because They Are Smaller Than The Others And Tend To Be More Susceptible To Illness, Etc, Because They Pick On Each Other So Much. I Would Do An Immediate Water Change And Try To Get That Ammonia Down To Zero. Are You Using Prime Or Any Other Additives Besides Dechlorinator In Your Tap Water? Have You Tested The Tap Water To See What The Ammonia Is Out Of The Tap?


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## hisplaceresort1 (Mar 10, 2014)

I've also read on the forum, and on API's facebook page that a lot of people get false ammonia readings of 0.25 ppm; reasons unclear. If you want to be sure if you have ammonia or not, compare an ammonia test of your tap water to a test of distilled water, that you can buy at the store. There's no way distilled water is going to have ammonia in it... If the distilled water shows ammonia, it's your test kit... just a suggestion for double-checking.


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## grownwrong (Aug 12, 2014)

I hear ya, just did another test. To my suprise we do have ammonia in our tap water. Dang, gonna have to change my routine with water changes... Prime it 5 gallons at a time?!? Good news, my tank water has significantly less ammonia than the tap.

Pictures to follow.


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## grownwrong (Aug 12, 2014)

Poor little fellow...









The tank as a whole. See shy as heck, there are over 20 fish in there... somewhere.









Tube on the left; Tank Water
Tube on the right: Tap Water


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## nmcichlid-aholic (Mar 23, 2011)

grownwrong said:


> I hear ya, just did another test. To my suprise we do have ammonia in our tap water. Dang, gonna have to change my routine with water changes... Prime it 5 gallons at a time?!? Good news, my tank water has significantly less ammonia than the tap.
> 
> Pictures to follow.


Man, that stinks that your tap water has such a high level of ammonia in it. Follow the dosing instructions on the bottle to use Prime for ammonia and nitrite detoxification, and pick up one of those gallon jugs of it next time you're at the store because you're going to need a lot of it! I would start by treating 5 gallons at a time, testing it right out of the tap then again after dosing and before adding it to your tank. Do it like that until you're comfortable with how much you'll need to use to detoxify the water you add each time. That would explain the high nitrate levels, too - you're starting off with more ammonia in the water, so nitrates build up more quickly. The reason the ammonia is higher out of the tap than in the tank is that your nitrifying bacteria are working to reduce ammonia levels in the tank. You need to work on getting this figured out ASAP, though, or you'll start losing your other fish, too. Do water changes every day until ammonia reads 0 in the tank!


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## hisplaceresort1 (Mar 10, 2014)

Instructions for Seachem Prime say to dose for the whole amount of water in the tank, if you're mixing in the tank, right?
I do anyway, just to be sure...
The other thing is... didn't I read on a post here that if your water supply uses chloramines instead of chlorine, you will get an ammonia reading? A call to your water utility should be able to answer what they use...
Anyway - +1 on everything nmcichlid-aholic says... Good luck!


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## wortel87 (Apr 15, 2014)

The demasoni on the pick has bloat.


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## hisplaceresort1 (Mar 10, 2014)

wortel87 said:


> The demasoni on the pick has bloat.


... is it the eyes that make you think so?


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## grownwrong (Aug 12, 2014)

What are the physical signs of bloat? I know the natural tendency is to feed too often, so I thought I've been mindful not to. Hmmm It's hard to describe the quantity i feed based on "pinches of flakes." But I typically feed once in the morning and once in the evening, 2 "pinches" each time. We're talking 22 fish here.

i'll cut back to once a day then I guess?!?


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## grownwrong (Aug 12, 2014)

Ok, just read up on it... guess I'm dumb to assume overfeeding was the cause. STRESS is the weak link creating susceptibility. Gonna have to think about this one.


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## grownwrong (Aug 12, 2014)

Then the next article says overfeeding is a cause... and it is and is not contagious. Well I don't have a hospital tank, cant do a water change until Friday night, but I could get to a pet store to buy medicine if that's helpful?!?

What should be my next step given my conditional restraints?


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## nmcichlid-aholic (Mar 23, 2011)

Correct the ammonia problem first. IF the fish have bloat (and that's a big if - you've not described many symptoms of it, and a person would be hard pressed to look at one photo of a fish and make that diagnosis accurately...), then treating it before correcting the underlying issue that is most likely causing it won't help much. Are any of the fish refusing food, or taking food into their mouth but spitting it out? Have you seen any with white, stringy feces trailing them? These are the main symptoms of bloat, which in my experience is caused more by stress than diet.

Find a way to start water changes before Friday.


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## wortel87 (Apr 15, 2014)

*** seen my fair share demasoni with bloat.

If your adding new ones to an already established group most likely 1 or 2 get bloat.

If you dont feed right. They get bloat.

If they get picked on they get bloat.

And if you breathe on them they get bloat.

*** had bloat a few times but only with my demasoni they just catch it easily. My tank is stable at the moment. Not changing any stock and "Knock on wood" healthy demasoni.

And yes the pic tells me it has bloat. When they have it they all look the same. A belly from eating looks a whole lot different than what your seeing here. Resting on the bottom with an abornmal belly. Mouth half opened.


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## grownwrong (Aug 12, 2014)

The water condition is fine right now. 0ppm ammonia and 20ppm nitrate. I have a very strong biofilter. The issue is gonna be the next water change because I don't want to introduce 1ppm ammonia into the tank. But until then, the conditions are satisfactory.

No change I can do a change until Friday night. It's Mid-Terms right now. If I don't pass Probability, Random Signals, and Statistics (one class) and Classic Control Systems... me and the fish will be homeless soon enough.

No, no other symptoms of Bloat at all. Everyone eats, no stringy anything, this one is the only one that sits on the bottom. he moves from the front to the back of the tank ever so often and lil buddy is still holding on! Coloration is very vivid... just behavior is off!?! The other fish leave it alone completely. He has his part of the tank to him/herself.


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## wortel87 (Apr 15, 2014)

That the other fish seem okay does not mean the demasoni from the pic doesnt have it. You also dont know if it does or doesnt spread.

Watch him for some time and see if hes got tiny little hickups (verry subtle) at this point hes probably not even passing any stringy feces.

demasoni show verry bright colours with bloat so they dont get atacked.


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## nmcichlid-aholic (Mar 23, 2011)

If They've Still Eating, You Might Get Some Metronidazole In Powder Form And Soak Their Food In A Water/Metro Mix For Fifteen Or Twenty Minutes Before Feeding. If Any Do Have Bloat It'll Help Treat It, And If They Don't It'll Help Prevent It.

I've Been Keeping A colony Of Demasoni For The Past 3-4 Years, And I've Lost My Fair Share To Bloat, Too. In My Experience, When They die From It, Their Bellies Are Almost Always Popped Like A Balloon. If You Haven't Seen Any Physical damage On The Dead Ones, And None Of Them Are Displaying Any Symptoms Other Than Lethargy, Yours May Or May Not Have It. Either Way, Treating With Metro Certainly Won't Hurt For The Time Being.


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## grownwrong (Aug 12, 2014)

Cool, I read about that medicine too. Gonna definitely get some for prevention if nothing else. No, no damage with any of the dead. And I just checked this guy and he's not on the bottom anymore. He's out and about hiding with the rest I think!?! No sign of him anywhere. Which is a good-ish thing i think. I'll fell better if I don't see him again for awhile.


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## wortel87 (Apr 15, 2014)

Hows the demasoni doing?


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## POWER77 (Mar 26, 2014)

I have been breeding Demasoni for the last 2 years and I think it is important to rule out the possibility that your dominant male is killing the rest off before you end up with only one left. Sit down behind a piece of furniture in the room and stay very still until the fish forget you are there. This will give you a chance to see what is really going on. With Demasoni you just have to accept the fact that some will be killed off due to aggression. I started my original colony 4 years ago with 12 juvies and lost all but one male, my current colony was started with 9 adult fish and luckily only lost 1 before I added more and they settled down. Breeding group is now 25 and have no issues - the key with these fish is numbers to spread the aggression out. The dominant male is always chasing fish but because there are so many they get a chance to recover before again getting picked on.

I am not ruling out the other possibilities and you definitely need to sort you ammonia levels out but think you need to have a look at this as well and consider adding another 10 Demasoni if this is the source of the problem (at night and change the layout of the tank to reset territories).

I have also had the same experience with them hiding and this is again helped with numbers. Another thing I found is when you have a tank right next to a door the fish get a surprise when you walk in and hide. I try to setup tanks on the opposite side of a room so they can see you approaching from a distance.


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