# Devastated - lost 5 cyclids



## Adi (Oct 20, 2008)

Hi all,
I am rather new to this. Just got my first aquarium 2 months ago and stocked it with 12 African cyclids. Then I quickly learned about the Nitrogen cycle. I did everything in my power to normalize the tank including adding "One and Only" beneficial bacteria, partial water changes, monitoring the chemicals 2x a day.

Just when I started feeling a sense of accomplishment due to the fact that I have not lost any fish even though I had not properly started the tank, it happened - I lost 5 fish - 2 gorgeous (blue) Scianochromis ahli probably 6 inches long each, and 2 Metriaclima lombardoi - relatively smaller 2-3 inch perhaps, and a another one - gorgeous orange - not sure what exactly it was.

Like I said, I was getting good ammonia and nitrite readings (ammonia around 0.0 - 0.25 and nitrites 0.25 and nitrate around 40 with pH of 7.8-8.0, for a few weeks now and was doing a routine water change today when I lost my first fish. As you all can imagine, I am devastated, and I really do not understand what happened. I performed numerous water changes in the past 2 months since I got the tank in order save my fish. I would normally take out 30% water and add a few tsp of AMQUEL+ and NovAqua when I performed water changes. I would add AMQUEL+ gradually - i.e. 1 tsp then wait a few seconds, then add more as the water level increased etc. The only thing I did differently today was that I waited for the tank to get full and then I added AMQUEL+ and NOvAqua. To my chagrin, shortly after, a few fish were attempting to "jump put of the water" and I knew something was terribly wrong. a few were laying dead on the bottom of the fish tank and a few seemed disoriented. I panicked a bit not knowing what to do first but then I quickly caught a few fish and placed them in a bucket that I filled with a gallon of spring water, and proceeded to perform another water change, this time with spring water and moved the remaining live fish from the bucket back to the tank. Four fish rebounded back to life in the fish tank while the rest died in the bucket. Incidentally, the 3 I could not catch that remained in the tank were OK. I had tough time catching them because they did not seem to have been affected as they were very agile as opposed to the 9 I caught.

I am very upset, because I really gave it my best shot only to see them die on me in matter of minutes and not being able to save them. Naturally, I have numerous questions - could it have been chlorine in tap water, should have I added AMQUEL+ gradually like I normally do, etc. Do any of you all have a clue as to what could have triggered this so I can avoid it in the future? Thank you in advance.
Adi


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## plow (Feb 19, 2008)

sorry about your loss... I know how it feels. however the best lessons are hardest learnt and your future fish will benefit form all this experience you are gaining.

chlorine is totally possible.. remember that chlorine is a gas, that is dissolved in water, and it takes time for it to evaporate from the tap. Water should definitley be treated first for chlorine if you know that your tap water contains high levels of it.

Can you tell me more about your tap water, your climate, where the water comes from etc, it can help me tell you if your water is treated with chlorine in large or small concentrations. I work in the industry of town supply water so I may be able to help abit. Jumping out of the water doesn't at all sound like ammonia or nitrite, especially during a water change.

Chlorine can be devastating though, its powerful stuff. It can also kill your nitrification bacteria which break down ammonia and slow down your cycle big time.

Does your tap water taste like chlorine?


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Hi,

So sorry for the loss of your fish.

Your water may also contain high levels of Chloramine which would have caused your fish to stress in the absense of a declorinator and perhaps kill them outright as you describe.

But it may also have been some other toxin that found its way into the tank during the water change. Gasoline residue on your fingers, soap in the changing buckets--any number of substances in very small amounts can prove deadly to your fish. 
Sometimes a toxin is actually in the water--say if the water company is making changes or working on the pipes. You might give them a quick call to find out.

You mentioned an ammonia reading for the tank. One possible scenario here is that your ph had dropped since your last water change rendering the ammonia virtually harmless to your fish. When you did the water change the new water _raised the ph _and the ammonia suddenly became highly toxic--deadly to your fish.

Don't despair or spend too much time blaming yourself. As a moderator of this forum I've heard many such stories as yours: sudden, muliple fish deaths and they come from people who've been keeping fish all their lives and those just starting out with the hobby. Sometimes we figure out what happened, often times we don't. When you think of what we're all doing: keeping a bit of Lake Malawi, or Tanganyika in our living room--well it's not surprising that occasionally things like this happen.

After talking with the water company to make sure there's nothing foreign in your water supply I would increase the frequency of your partial water changes until you've got the ammonia and nitrite down to 0. Adding salt, (sodium chloride) at the rate of 1-2 teaspoons per ten gallons will detoxify any nitrite. If your water has high levels of chlorine or chloramine then make sure you're dosing for the total tank volume, not just the amount of water you're adding. Read the declorinator label carefully and make sure you're using the correct amount. We don't know if the problem came because of adding the declorinator after you filled the tank but it's a good practice to add the declorinator as you add the water, especially if your water is heavily treated.

Please post back with any additional questions or concerns. And again, sorry for the loss of your beautiful fish.

Robin


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## plow (Feb 19, 2008)

Robin said:


> Hi,
> 
> Your water may also contain high levels of Chloramine which would have caused your fish to stress in the absense of a declorinator and perhaps kill them outright as you describe.


hey very good call, many cities are using this as an alternative to chlorine.


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## Adi (Oct 20, 2008)

Plow, Robin,
Thank you for your kind words and advice.

I have a API (Aquarium Pharmaceutical Inc) test kit that can only test for pH, Ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrate. I just tested the tap water and here are the results:

pH : 8.8
Ammonia : 1.0
Nitrite: : 0.0
Nitrate : 0.0

I called the water company to see whether anything changed, but was on hold for a while (I live in Miami, FL - their call volume must be huge given the population) so I don't have official water report but will keep trying to get one. Comparing today's test results for my tap water to the results last time I tested it a few weeks ago I can tell you that most definitely the pH changed. Normally it is 7.8 or so and today it read 8.8. I have no way to test for Chloramine and Chlorine (i am sure there is some in the tap water) but AmQuel+ and NovAqua are supposed to take care of that without harming the beneficial bacteria. Like you said, whether it happened because I did not add them gradually as I normally do, I will never know. Live and learn...

Again, thank you for your kind words, I do appreciate it.
Sincerely,
Adi


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## plow (Feb 19, 2008)

In florida, my guess is that water is treated quite heavily, using chlorine or chloramine, do you know where the water source is? If it is run off from mountains etc, it is most certainly treated quite heavily to reduce the risk of coliforms and bacteria reaching your kitchen water. Warmer climates are more susceptible to problems and therefore tend to use a little bit more aswell. 
if water is sourced from underground rivers and pumped up for consumption, as it is done here in sweden, the risk of faecal coliforms and bacteria is very small, and therefore only minimal treatment is necessary

pH of 8.8 is really high, it doesn't sound right actually. Water is kept above pH7 to stop the cast iron pipes from rusting, but normally not that high, we run at 8.3, (which is ideal for mbuna  )
It sounds to me like your water supplier has had problems of some sort, I dont think they intended to supply water at pH8.8, although its not harmful to us, its certainly not a target level. As robin said the high pH in combination with ammonia could have been the problem,

wooooaaah..... just read your post again, ammonia from your tap water? combined with pH 8.8... thats not good water, and not a good combination.

are you sure about this? contact your water company and find out what is going on.. Its hard to keep fish with those kind of parameters... the'yve had a problem somewhere I'm guessing. It is also possible they dont know about it either, I would report your findings to them, make sure you speak with the guy responsible for distribution through the water network. They may want to take sample and get it analysed by a lab. I would demand it, those are really bad values.


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## plow (Feb 19, 2008)

one more thing, if the water company is aware they have a problem which could lead to high ammonia values, they are most likely increasing the dosing of disinfectant (chlorine) to combat this, so people dont get sick from the water.

It certainly sounds like your tap water is the problem though, and if so, water changes right now wouldn't be the answer... just reduce feeding massively to keep ammonia under control until you get to the source of the problem. Remember a holding female can go 4 weeks without substanital food, so lack of food shouldn't bother them for a short while.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

So you have just three fish left? How are they? Eating and swimming normally? Gasping? Any discoloration?

The 1.0 ammonia reading straight out of the tap doesn't sound right. Is your test kit relatively new? Try testing again and see what you get. 
_What's the ammonia and nitrite levels in the tank? _

And yes, the declorinator you're using is a good one and should be able to handle any amount of chloramine/chlorine with no unwanted side effects.

Robin


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## Adi (Oct 20, 2008)

Ho plow,
I got hold of somebody at the water company who gave me a phone number for their lab. Since it is already after hours, I will have to speak with them tomorrow.

I retested the tap water this evening and the pH and it is definitely above 8.4 (between 8.4 and 8.8). The Ammonia is definitely at 1.0. It will be interesting to hear what the water company's lab data is.

This is why I am confused as I have performed numerous water changes in the past 2+ months since I set up the aquarium and never had any problems. Something must have changed. I hope the water company will agree to test my tap water to give me a piece of mind.
In any case I put spring water so for now until I get some answers I think my fish will be OK.

Oh, regarding Miami-Dade water source - it comes from an underground aquifer called Biscayne Aquifer. The county's Water and Sewer Department web site says the aquifer is an underground limestone formation and the water is supposedly of best quality being tested more than 100,000 time a year... 
Please see: http://www.miamidade.gov/conservation/water_quality.asp.

So hopefully tomorrow I will have some answers.

Regards,
Adi


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## Adi (Oct 20, 2008)

Hi Robin,
Actually I have 7 fish left. Six cichlids and one bottom feeder. The tank is 546 gallon tank with 2 filters Penguin 300 and Emperor 400. My testing kit is 2 months old, I do not know how long it sat on the store shelves and it is liquid based where you count drops....

Current water quality in the tank is as follows: 
pH : 8.0
Ammonia : 0.25
Nitrite : 0.0
Nitrate : 10.0
Temperature: 78.2

The remaining fish seem OK, a little spooked as there was definitely a pecking order in place so now I see new one emerging. There are no spots or any visible damage on the fish. On one of the dead ones yesterday, I noticed brown almost red spot under the gills towards the belly. Probably due to poisoning?

I hope water company will give some answers as I am still getting readings of 8.4+ closer to 8.8 for the tap water pH.

Regards,
Adi


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## Adi (Oct 20, 2008)

I meant to type 46 gallon tank not 546 gallons - that would be nice 


Adi said:


> Hi Robin,
> Actually I have 7 fish left. Six cichlids and one bottom feeder. The tank is 546 gallon tank with 2 filters Penguin 300 and Emperor 400. My testing kit is 2 months old, I do not know how long it sat on the store shelves and it is liquid based where you count drops....
> 
> Current water quality in the tank is as follows:
> ...


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

The high tap PH isn't a huge concern if it can be maintained. Most fish will adapt to less than ideal ph levels without problems but what they can't deal with is fluctuating ph levels.

Are you adding anything to your water to buffer the ph? A good test kit to have is one for KH. When KH levels are low your Ph will have a tendency to drop quicker than normal. The water company may actually be able to tell you what the tap KH is although you'd be much better off testing the tap and tank yourself. If you find that your KH is too low raising it is a simple matter of adding baking soda when you do water changes. But don't add anything until you know what the actual levels are. 
Have you've got coral substrate?

Something is causing your tap ph of 8.4 to drop to 8.0 in the tank. We should find out what.

On the dead fish with the redness--could indicate ammonia poisoning but I don't know how much you can tell from just looking at a dead fish.

And yes you really want to get that answer from the water company soon so you can start doing partial water changes to get the ammonia down to 0.

Robin


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## Adi (Oct 20, 2008)

Hi guys,
I got through to one of the chemists at the county water and sewer department. What he told me is the following:
* pH levels are 9.0. They set it that high on purpose. He did not elaborate why.
* Chloramines are also very high
* Ammonia is usually at 0.7

So he suggested I pour water into a bucket first and treat it before adding it to the tank. I do realize that was one of the mistakes on my part. I used to pour water directly from the tap into the tank via a hose. I bought one of those long reaching hoses that you can attach to a faucet. It has a valve that you can turn to either take water out of the fish tank or to pour the water in. So in the past when I performed numerous water changes I guess what saved the fish was the fact that I gradually added AmQuel+ and NovAqua. This last time I got cocky (better said lazy) and my cichlids paid the ultimate price.

Also, last several water changes I used spring water as it had no ammonia, chloramines, chlorine etc. It was getting expensive so I decided to try the tap water again, never suspecting that it could harm the fish. And also the convenience of having a hose pour water directly into the tank caused me to drop my guard and not test/treat the water prior to adding it to the tank...

So this is an nutshell explains at least partially what happened. As to what lowers the pH in my tank, probably the spring water that I added before. And you are right fluctuating pH cannot be good for the fish so I need a way to keep it stable. Too bad I was not aware of this earlier.

Lessons learned for anyone else on this forum that is a newbie like me:
* buy a bucket that will be used for water changes only. Test the water in the bucket before adding it to the fish tank.

* maintain consistent water chemistry - i.e. pH

Again, Robin and plow thank you for your help, I do appreciate it.
Adi
PS
Can you recommend a good test kit for KH?


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## plow (Feb 19, 2008)

Thats interesting Adi, I'm suprised by their pH values, 9 in my opinion is really really high. I dont understand why they would have it so high to be honest. I am also suprised by their ammonia levels being at 0.7 ppm.

Interesting to hear they are using chloramine in Florida.

Oh well, best lessons hardest learnt, I'm sure you know your water now, and how to handle it, your fish will be much happier for it too.

API are pretty reputable, their KH test should be a good.


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## plow (Feb 19, 2008)

Thats interesting Adi, I'm suprised by their pH values, 9 in my opinion is really really high. I dont understand why they would have it so high to be honest. I am also suprised by their ammonia levels being at 0.7 ppm.

Interesting to hear they are using chloramine in Florida.

Oh well, best lessons hardest learnt, I'm sure you know your water now, and how to handle it, your fish will be much happier for it too.

API are pretty reputable, their KH test is a good one.


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## jerandmanda (Feb 28, 2005)

You should look into getting a RO system, you can get on from Ebay for about 150.00.


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