# How to please an old man : Discus ?



## Louis123 (Jun 13, 2004)

Hello there,

I have been around the forums for quite some time now and while I always found discus interesting, I never really got a passion for them.

I've been keeping 150g tropheus tank for almost 5 years now without any death (and many many many reproductions) and recently been keeping 75g mixed tanganyika community (xenotilapias, cyprochromis, paracyprochromis) all wild caught and got my first reproductions from the paracyp recently.

I always sticked to the same routine with my tanganyikan habitants, 1x30% water change per week with my dose of buffer and salt. Feeding in the morning and evening. I never had any problems this way.

With the introduction done, let me bring the main subject to the table, Discus. The father of my girlfriend is pretty sick (he has a type of cancer called multiple myloma) he is a big fan of cichlids, he kept many tanks for many years. Recently with his cancer he lost everything he had, he could not take care anymore of his tanks (and I recently entered in the picture) so I figured out I would try to give him back a few years of hapiness with a tank I would maintain with his favorite fish wich happens to be Discus.

Being of a conservative nature, I dont think I will be at his house more than once or twice a week (vietnamese parents don't really acknowledge caucasian boyfriends, although I'm doing pretty good on this case it still would not feel right to be there daily).

I need to figure out a way to take care of the tank for him..

Here are my concerns :

-I've read that many Discus owners change 50% of their water every day.. Is this abusive ?
-My tap water comes out around 7.2-7.6, should I bother with acids ? It worked great for me with my tropheus (Tanganyika buffer) 
-Should I bother with the conductivity readings ? I've never tested conductivity but I understand it has to be low, so low mineral in the water. It can be fixed by having RO water, which is not a route I would want to take.

Do you have any good reference about discus keeping ? I feel like cichlid-forum advice would be the best on the net, and I had an awkward feeling while reading advice on other forums.

Any help is appreciated !


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## sirdavidofdiscus (Dec 8, 2006)

Tank raised discus are alot more tolerant of higher pH's and hardness. Not that they can be in super hard water or extremely high ph's but they are fine in most tap water (after it's been dechloronated of course.) PH of 7.4 should be okay as long as you don't want to breed them. Even then it may work. 
The only time I ever did daily 50% changes was with fry. IMO 30% two or three times a week should be good. And with the right filter even that maybe overkill.
In 30+ years of fishkeeping I've never checked conductivity. And I use to work in an enviromental lab, where I'd do all kinds off unnecessary tests on my tank water for kicks.
The main thing is to keep the water parameters constant.


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## Louis123 (Jun 13, 2004)

Thank you for the advice, I would probably plum an ATO then...

With an overflow drilled in the top of the tank and a reservoir to hold my aerated and conditioned water. The pump could turn on for 5 minutes a day or something, dumping new water in the tank and the tank would automatically overflow through the plumbing.

I would like to have breeding conditions, in this case would driftwood & peat be sufficient to lower the ph enough given the constant water renewal ? Do you think that I should use acid to lower it directly in the reservoir?

I would prefer interfering less and make it a hassle free tank, thats why I'm throwing these ideas...

Aside from that, generally when you think discus you also think about the plants, I believe it would fit well together (esthetically with the driftwood) maybe mangroves would be a good choice ? Is there any plants that would be more suitable than others ?

Thanks again for your help


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Discus do need clean water, but there are ways to get this without daily water changesâ€¦

Iâ€™m picturing a 75 Gal aquariums (48â€


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

I've never owned discus, but IME driftwood is well enough to lower the pH and soften the water to an acceptable level for aquarium strains of discus, obviously depending on the amount of driftwood, this will need to be tested by you, add a piece, wait 24 hours, test, if to high, add another, test again, until you find a desirable pH and hardness.

Discus are prone to being weakened by Detritus, which grows on/in substrate, which plants need. I suggest using sand, as detritus settles on top, unlike gravel in which it is within the substrate, it is therefore easier to remove off the top of sand.

Discus will like the plants, but if the plants die off, which isn't uncommon, it may make the water worse. Of course, if the plants do well, they "feed" off of Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate, which in turn will help discus. Anubias and Java fern, and Vallisneria are easy plants, but the val will likely need trimming, as it tends to grow too much.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Hi there,

At first sorry to hear abouth the illness of the old man. Nice of you to give him something to distract from his situation. Watching discus is relaxing and I hope it gives the old man some joy. Does he know of your plans? If not you first might want to check if he would apreciate your plans especialy becouse culture diferences.

You might want to check my thread on growing out discus at page 2 or so. It describes my experiences and it takes down some myths around discus keeping.

If you would persude discus from a local breeder or Stendker (Discus Hans) you don't need to change the PH level. I keep *and breed *discus on PH=8, GH=9 and KH=3-4. Stendker keep their discus in PH=7, GH=15 and KH=6 for example. Wild fish are something very diferent and I suggest to stay away from those.

Imo it is the best and the easiest on maintenance to keep discus in a bare bottom tank. Put in a nice background and some driftwood and the fish love it. Cleaning is an easy job as well and only takes some time. Keeping discus in a planted tank takes much more effort and you will probably face dificulties to keep the tank clean enough especialy becouse you are used to African cichlids and low maintanace. If you don't like the bare bottom you could put a small sand layer in the tank of 1/4 to 1/2 inch deep of river sand or pool filter sand. You also could add some Java fern tight to the driftwood. This looks nice but still is not to dificult to control.

The famely or the old man it selves could feed the fish 2 to 3 times a day. If you keep the stock level low you can do with 2 water change of 50% a week without issues. Each discus needs at least 10 gallon. Discus are large fish so low stock levels is not a problem. If you would have 15 gallon for each discus you might pull off with a small quick substrate vacume and one large 70% water change a week. The large water changes you wrote abouth is during growing out of discus. In your situation I suggest to buy nearly adult discus of say 41/2 inch or larger. This should make things easier but also more expensive. Discus do best in groups of 6 or more or as a proven pair. For clean up crew I suggest a BN pleco.

On simplydiscus.com you find tons of reliable discus info and lots of experts willing to help.

Ruurd


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## bstuver (Apr 28, 2005)

I am located in Utah and my tap water is at least a ph of 8 normally even a bit higher and my discus pair let the eggs get to free swimming so discus can do just fine in higher ph and hardness as that reading is off the charts in my tank.
I do 1-2 50% weekly water changes and my discus have done great however they are all over 4".
Good luck and I am sorry to hear of his illness.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

bstuver,.....we share the same experiences if it comes to the high PH and hardness of the water. Important is to mention not all domesticated discus handle this well and all depends on how they are breed and raised. If the fish already were breed in harder water (like Stendker fish) they will handle up to a PH of 8 just fine. If they are raised and born on soft water (PH=6,5 GH=5 and conductivity around 150 micro Siemens) they won't handle it well and do better on softer water and a PH below 7.5 . Thats why I mentioned the Stendker fish and local breed fish becouse those should be used to the higher PH and GH. Wilds have diferent needs and do need a PH of 7 at max to thrive. Any way,....go for good qualety fish! Avoid cheap down prised discus becouse there is a reason why they are cheap. Stay away from stunted fish (big eyes) and darkened fish (often ill or stressed fish). The height of the bar across the eye should at least be 5 times the diameter of the eye. If not the fish are to small for their age and have not been developed like it should be. A good developed adult domesticated discus (2 years of age) should be 5 inch or larger. My smallest adult is a female of only 5 1/2 inch and the largest 6 3/4 inch male. All raised from 3 inch in tapwater of PH=8 and GH=9 and almost 2 years of age.


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## Louis123 (Jun 13, 2004)

Hey,

Thanks for all the replies,

I'll probably go with the KISS method (keep it simple and stupid )

It looks like starting with tap water is better & more cost effective, your paremeters will be more stable, you have to play with less products (acid... ) and can setup automatic water changes !

I guess i'll go that route if I can..

Now I don't want wild, I don't know wich one to pick ! Any suggestions ?


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

I prefer color shades close to wilds like domestic Alenquers, Red Turquoise and Red Scribbled and Brilliant Turquoise. Other people have diferent favorites like Pigeon based fish, Blue Diamond, Snakeskin blue/red or Albino strains. I think it is to personal to say which one to choos. One color shade is always stable if it comes to sales and appreciation for over 20 years and thats the Red Turquoise.

A pic of one of my breeding pairs I just offered for sale


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## bstuver (Apr 28, 2005)

Actually Dutch Dude my pair that breeds were raised in soft water from the previous owner and are now in hard water with high PH and they breed for me.


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## Louis123 (Jun 13, 2004)

Very interesting !

I really like discus, they all look esthetically appealing to me ! I think I will go with the flow and check what I can get locally, I know that there is a "reputable" breeder close to montreal, they receive their stock from Stendker and Somsak !

Water quality wise, I think I'm going to go with tap water, it's been a long time I have tested it, my tanks have been running on the same dosage for years and I never had a problem... I have some specific question to adress (once again)

-Do you suggest doing very large water changes periodically or plumb an automatic water change system ?

-I don't want to go barebottom tank, as much as I like fishes, it is still a display tank and would want to keep a sleek look. What type of substrate do you recommend ? I was thinking of a layer of peat moss covered by a layer of black sand to adress my ph "problem" and be able to grow plants easily.

-The substrate is not the only thing, what is your experience with driftwood with those massive water changes ? Does it change the ph at all ?

For now that is all i can think of,

Thanks again for your help !


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

Driftwood will lower the pH and water changes will bring it closer to the pH of the water used for the water changes.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

> Actually Dutch Dude my pair that breeds were raised in soft water from the previous owner and are now in hard water with high PH and they breed for me


 Thats interesting! They adapted very well!

I suggest to stop worrying abouth the PH. A stable PH of 7.6 is good enough for domesticated discus. No need to soften that IMO.

I would prefer at least 2 large water changes a week.

I would not add the peat mos. Your PH of 7.6 is fine and without the peat moss the sand will be much easier to clean. A layer of 1/2 or 1/4 is enough to cover the tankfloor, is to shallow to get large pockets filled with gas and can be flipped over with every water change and for that will be easier to keep it clean. I have river sand in my tank but a save to use sand is pool filter sand.

Driftwood does soften the water but with 2 or so large water changes a week it won't do much. I would not worrie abouth the PH. A stable PH is more important as lowering it from 7.5 to 7.3.

Just my 2 ct.

Ruurd


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