# parasite or bacterial



## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

i have a 125 gallon tank with two marineland c-530's running for 10 months now with few problems(ich once, 8 months ago)water levels are ph 7.2 nitrites 0 amm 0 nitrates 20 GH has gone from 3 down to 1 in three weeks (town water i guess)temp is 80f

electric blue jack dempsey 5 in
2 rainbow fish almost 4 in 
3 clown loaches 3.5 in
eartheater 3 in
blue gourami 4 in
moonlight gourami 4 in
common pleco 4 in

the fish get along very well and are usually very active. The EBJD is not really aggressive and tolerates the rest of his tankmates. he always comes to the front of the tank when i come into the room normally and now he's darting and hiding. then he comes back out after a couple of minutes. i have noticed him scratching, shaking his head too. the other fish have been scratching too. eartheater is the newest addition 1 month ago and is the only fish not scratching. there are no white spots. there is a brownish red speck on the moonlight gourami's dorsal fin and has not been very active sitting at bottom most of day. fish are all eating normally except the EBJD. always ate anything i gave him, 2 months ago he stopped eating flakes and anything that floats. fish has been darting and scratching for two weeks. please help


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

It could be gill flukes. Did you quarantine the new fish?

I suggest treating with PraziPro or API General Cure, and increasing your frequency and size of your water changes for now while you figure out what the problem might be.


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

No I didn't Quarantine but it doesn't seem to have symptoms of anything. Ido 25% water changes weekly right now. I also treated with general cure 4 days ago I pulled the moonlight out After treatment and put him in a hospital tank for the time being. It seemed the other fish were staying away from it when it was in the 125. Maybe I have multiple things going on. I changed the water and put in fresh carbon after treatment. I also installed my new vecton uv sterilizer to help with parasites. I came downstairs this morning and the EBJD is still darting. I also saw the eartheater chasing the clowns and nipping. The moonlight now has new spots on the dorsal but the spots are black and do not seem to be raised. the other spot looks to be raised and definitely red. What is this. Thanks for the reply.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Increase your water changes to 50% a week for now. I'd like to see your nitrates lower while you try to diagnose the problem.

Otherwise- we're going to need some pictures to help.

Did you do 2 doses of the General Cure? I have found that with many parasite meds, a full week is needed to kick the problem.


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

i did only do 2 treatments. 1 dose then 48 hours later dose again 48 hours then 35% water change. i took another look at the moonlight gourami (MG) and he's got red, what looks like short hairs coming from his anus :dancing: but seriously thats the case. when i fed him last night he took some flakes then spit it out . then took a little piece and swallowed it and that was it . i'm having trouble finding how to post pics


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Upload pics here then paste the BBCode (message boards & forums) link in your reply, hit preview to check if it worked before submitting your post.
From the sounds of it, your fish has camallanus. Highly contagious, if you have other tanks, they will need to be treated as well.
See this post.


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

here are the pics


http://imgur.com/s9vpT


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Fairly certain it's camallanus. Follow the above link for treatment directions.


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

i have another small tank should i treat that tank too? i do stick my hands in all the tanks when i clean them. does this parasite start in the water or food or what? the fish in that tank don't seem to be acting strange. the link says to change all of the water before treatment. all of it?


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

mac10 said:


> i have another small tank should i treat that tank too? i do stick my hands in all the tanks when i clean them. does this parasite start in the water or food or what? the fish in that tank don't seem to be acting strange. the link says to change all of the water before treatment. all of it?


I don't see where it says to change all of the water. In any case, a partial water change is all that's needed.


> Before treating, do a partial water change, vacuum gravel, and remove any activated carbon from filter.


You'll need to treat all tanks and disinfect all equipment. A drop of water is all that's needed for it to spread.


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

1.	You may have trouble locating Levamisole, but Panacur (Fenbendazole) de-wormer is good as well and widely available (also used in Safeguard).

I would start ASAP, and repeat the treatment a few weeks after the first round is completed. Panacur comes in 1 gram packets, and 1/10 gram will treat their food plus a 20 gallon tank, so you'll have to divide the gram into equal amounts accordingly.

Before treating, do a partial water change, vacuum gravel, and remove any activated carbon from filter. It doesn't mix well with water, so grind the powder as fine as you can then shake in a container with a small amount of tank water. I use 1/8 cup in a baby food jar with a tight-fitting lid. Soak some food in the container for at least an hour with a pinch of garlic to make it more palatable and for its anti-parasitic properties. My fish spit out pellets and flakes, but ate bloodworms heartily, so I used them exclusively in further treatments.

When ready, pour entire contents into tank. Mix up little batches to medicate their food for the next three days, but don't add more medication to the water directly. After the three day treatment, do another partial water change and vacuum gravel. It's important to repeat this same treatment in about three weeks time for complete eradication. After both treatments, I fed frozen peas (shelled and thawed) to help them pass any dead worms, along with Jungle brand anti-bacterial pellets for a about a week, all soaked in garlic juice. The worms will perforate their intestines, and I did lose 2 Rams who were badly infested, but one who definitely had them hanging pulled through, much to my surprise. Also treated a BN pleco and ghost shrimp, who are still doing well. 

in the post above he used fenbendazole. i have found the levamisole and treated the tanks last night. i've been doing research and have found some people treated then did water change then 2-3 weeks later treat again. i've also read that some people treat then do a water change and retreat 1-2 weeks later and then treat again in 1 week for a total of three treatments. also do you think it's safe to treat food with the levamisole. i know it's done with the fenbendazole.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

I found no reference for mixing with food, however, Jungle uses levamisole in their anti parasite medicated food. You may want to add that to the waterborne treatment.
You'll need to squeeze the pellets to get them to sink.


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

Well, i finished the second treatment, the moonlight was doing better after first treatment,eating again swimming around and such. But now he's sitting at the bottom again. I still have to do another treatment. I hope the final treatment works. I moved the MG to another tank before treatments when I didn't know what was wrong with the fish so now I'm treating three tanks. The 125 things were going real good. EBJD was eating peas and some flakes but he still has not had a huge appetite for anything but bloodworms and brine shrimp. I also saw no scratching since first treatment. Now I saw the eartheater scratching and the blue gourami. The BG was doing well, but now is not swimming around a whole lot just hovering in middle of aquarium. The EBJD wasn't darting after treatment But now he is again :-?


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

I found more dosage information regarding levamisole. I'm not sure how it compares to what you've been dosing.


> 59 mg of Levamisole HCl is equivalent to 50 mg of pure levamisole.
> 90mg of Levamisole HCL will treat 10 gallons (38 liters) with a required 2 ppm concentration. Since Levamisole can be safely over dosed (with a considerable safety margin), approximately 1/4 teaspoon will work per 10 gallons (.19 teaspoons is more exact).


There was also a reference to treating with Tetra Parasite Guard (Praziquantel, Dflubenzuron, Metronidazole and Acriflavin) at the same time in an effort to combat possible secondary bacterial infections which sometimes occur because of the parasitic infestation.


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

I used 100 mg per 10 gallons which is a little over but like you said you can overdose safely with that amount. Will the fish scratch with a bacterial infection? I tried to get anti bacterial food but it never showed up in the mail. Tetra parasite guard will work for secondary bacterial infections? I've never used medicated food that's why I'm asking.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

mac10 said:


> I used 100 mg per 10 gallons which is a little over but like you said you can overdose safely with that amount. Will the fish scratch with a bacterial infection? I tried to get anti bacterial food but it never showed up in the mail. Tetra parasite guard will work for secondary bacterial infections? I've never used medicated food that's why I'm asking.


The Tetra product is a fizz tablet, not medicated food but can be used as a medicated fish food soak by using 1/2 tablet for an average 60 gallon bio load. Fish food should be soaked for 15 minutes. After soak, pour entire contents into aquarium.
Keep an eye on your water parameters.


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

Fish won't eat any cichlid pellets or flakes just shrimp pellets, bloodworms, brine shrimp. Should I just continue to give him them that until they start acting normal then try and get them to eat the other foods


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

You can do a med soak with whatever they'll eat.
Anything frozen will have to be thawed, strained and soaked longer, 15-30 minutes.
Blood worm is good for soaking up meds, however I'm not entirely sure it's an appropriate food for all of your fish, you'd likely know better than I would.


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

Well, I have finished all three treatments and have started feeding them parasite guard soaked bloodworms and brine shrimp. They didn't want it at first but I left it in for a few minutes and they ate every bit of it. I'm feeding them twice a day. The dosing recommendation said change all of the water, I didn't, I did 50% before and after treatment and now my nitrites are at 0.25 should I just wait it out or should I put some nitra-zorb to remove nitrite? I'm usually against putting chemicals that aren't necessary but I haven't had to deal with nitrite since I cycled the tank to begin with. Also I don't use salt in the tank normally but I heard it reduces nitrite levels. I want to treat the tanks with parasite guard but don't know if I should wait till the nitrite levels are down because of more water changes I'll have to do, not 50 % of course, but 25%. I haven't seen the fish scratching but during feeding the EBJD has been rubbing on driftwood and gravel and showing aggression which he doesn't usually do. Do you know if JD's do this normally. When I say aggression he just shoos the other fish away repeatedly. I hope this a good sign and shows he's feeling better. Also thank you for all of the help.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

I would dose Prime every 24-48 hours until your nitrite levels return to 0. Add any media you can spare from other tanks as well. Go ahead and continue with the Parasite guard as well as daily water parameter testing. Any ammonia reading?
I'm afraid I haven't kept JD's so I'm unfamiliar with their behavior. You may want to post in the Central American Cichlids forum for more specific info.
Glad to help


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

I 'll have to pick some prime up all i have is stress coat. No ammonia.


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

getting discouraged. blue is sitting in the corner and not eating. i dosed the tank with the parasite guard and now have done a 25% water change and added carbon. all the other fish are still eating but there not going after the food like normal. water parameters aren't good at all. ph is higher than normal (7.0) and now is 7.6 i'm guessing because of the meds. Nitrite is 1.0, amm 0, and nitrate is 0. fish seem real jumpy i have been dosing with prime at normal dose of 5ml per 50 gallons. should i hold off on water changes until nitrate comes up from 0?


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

also when i put the pellets in blue started shaking head alot and swam to other side of tank and stayed there till i turned out the lights a couple of hours later.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Keep up with the water changes and Prime every 24-48 hours, no need to let nitrates rise above 0, 0 is good. How long did you treat with Parasite Guard?


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

48 hours and then 25% water change.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Add some epsom salt, 1 tbsp per 10g, premix and add it gradually over a period of a few hours. Is blue pooping? This is the JD and not the blue gourami, correct? See if you can witness a bowel movement.
Keep the epsom concentration the same when performing water changes.
Wait 48 hours with carbon running, then remove and do another course of Parasite Guard and continue the epsom alongside.


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

is aquarium salt the same as epsom salt? yes, blue is the jd. blue has been pooping.


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

just tried feeding and didn't eat again, just shook head violently for a minute. He/she (thought to be male but don't know anymore) has been swimming a little more but not much. scratching again :x


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

aquarium salt and epsom salt are different.


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

Epsom salt at the drug store?


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## mlancaster (Jul 24, 2009)

Hi All,

My intentions of posting this are in no way malicious or accusatory to any member on the forum. I have and continue to appreciate all your help (and pictures; those are my favorite).

Having used salt as a general remedy for various tropical fish diseases over the past two years, I have recently changed my opinion.

I began using the flow charts and FAQ portions of the website below to help diagnose and treat my sick fish. That is when I read this article:

http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/koipond/salting_fish.html

The article explains why using salt in fresh water aquariums is ineffective and detrimental to your fish.

I have no professional training in medication, chemistry, tropical fish and/or anything similar. However, I seem to trust this article (even if it is blind trust) so I thought I would share it and let you make your own decisions on salt in fresh water aquariums.

Thanks,
Matt


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

Now I'm totally confused :fish:


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

LOL, sounds like they are losing a lot of business to salt medication to goto the effort of writing that pointless article.

The "testing the salt theory" they mentioned is flawed, you don't add salt to you tank when setting up a new tank. We use it for medicating some illnesses. And thats only for fish that can handle a bit of salt like our cichlids for example.

No offense, but if you trust a fish medication company to tell you the truth about alternative medications that they do not sell, then I would like to sell you bottle air.

The final comment says it all, notice the part I bolded:



> "These salt treatments are nothing but the Fleecing of America". Would you rather buy a small bottle of medicine that really works, or lose a whole pond full of fish from *over-dosing with salt*?


I wouldn't buy anything off them after reading an article like that.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Second to above, it seems if you look around there site you see more of the truth of the matter. They are talking about koi fish for starters, and they do add salt to there own ponds. I wouldn't add salt at all imo for a koi fish even for medicating, it just doesn't handle it very well.



> Adding Salt To Your Pond
> 
> The maximum level of salt that you can run in your pond, without major damage to the fish or filter is 0.1%.
> 
> ...


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

mac10 said:


> Now I'm totally confused :fish:


Not to worry, the article posted, and I use the term article quite loosely, is referring to regular salt, not epsom salt.


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## mlancaster (Jul 24, 2009)

Hi *GTZ* & *Nodalizer*,

Thank you for the clarification. So when you say epson salt, is that the same as aquarium salt purchased fromt he fish store?

Thanks,
Matt


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

No, it will be called Epsom salts. Its not even a salt, its magnesium. It is normally in the medication isle of your super market in a little box. Least of here in Australia.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

mlancaster said:


> Hi *GTZ* & *Nodalizer*,
> 
> Thank you for the clarification. So when you say epson salt, is that the same as aquarium salt purchased fromt he fish store?
> 
> ...


It's epsom salt, with an m and no, it's not aquarium salt. You can usually find it at drug stores.
It can be used to aid in or speed osmotic function in fish, or to flush excess fluids from the fish.
It's also used quite often to raise the general hardness (GH) of water.


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

Epsom salt is safe on clown loaches?


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Long as its used correctly.


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

Is it better to QT my JD or treat the whole tank with the Epsom salt?


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

You can treat the whole tank.


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

Good, I already did it over a few hours. Fish are more lively now that I put it in. I feel a little better now that Blue is swimming around.


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

I have not seen Blue poop in four days and has not eaten either. I've been feeding peas and all of the other fish are eating fine. Blue's stomach is sunken in. What other foods will make it have a bowel movement easily. I'm afraid of giving it to much protein which probably started the problem in the first place. I think the camilanus came from earthworms, how do I know if live foods are safe? Will live foods bring it out of this funk and get it eating again?


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

The protien in peas is nothing to worry about. It has a high fibre content to counter it.


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

It won't eat the peas, just chews and chews then spits it out, shakes head.Tried spinach too, won't eat it :x does it still have worms I wonder?


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Any other symptoms ?


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

I've seen it scratch maybe once a day that's it. Swimming normal. In the past 5 days I've tried spinach, peas, and brine shrimp took a couple BS but didn't seem to interested. It comes to front of the tank eagerly when it's time to feed but when I put food in it just looks at it and swims away then comes back and takes a bite and spits. Should I try live foods?


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

Water prameters are PH 7.6, nitrite 5 , Amm 0, nitrate 5 ppm. I've been doing 15% water changes every other day and dosing with prime and Epsom salt 1 tbls per 10 gallons.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

whats your GH ?


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

GH is 10 with Epsom salt. It's usually 1-2


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

My Dempsey is still not eating very good. I have seen her eat three different times in 14 days. She ate one pellet one day, then another day ate a couple of frozen BS, then the other day ate frozen bloodworms out of my hand. Every other time I try to feed by hand she sees what I'm feeding and swims away but not when I feed the bloodworms she swims up to my hand fast and starts attacking the cube in my fingers. Is this fish just stubborn or what? She is having bowel movements when she eats something. Still shaking head when I put pellets in the tank.

Does anyone now when these nitrites should come down to 0? I've been showing nitrite for 20 days. KH 2, GH 7, PH 7.2, nitrite 1? (hard to read, those tests are), Amm 0, nitrate 5. I've been doing 10% water changes every other day and dosing with prime. When I dose the prime I've been dosing for entire tank volume. She is looking very skinny.

How long can a fish of this size go on without eating. I don't know if I should just feed the bloodworms to get her fat again? I've tried 5 different kind of pellets, spinach, romaine lettuce, and frozen emerald entree.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

How much bio media you got? I had a problem on my tank recently where I had to change filters when I added two new fish and the filter couldn't fit enough media to hold enough bacteria.


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

There's two canister filters with three trays of media in each filter.


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## mac10 (Dec 8, 2011)

Well, it's been two months, not much has changed with my EBJD. The water parameters have been good for quite some time now (month and a half) my UV seemed to be the culprit for the high nitrites. I turned it off for a week and the nitrites came down to 0.

I got sick of looking at a near empty tank and bought some more fish. So got ich and cured it. All fish are eating like pigs except my blue dempsey. Still head shaking when I put any food besides blood worms. I tried starving the fish for three days then feeding pellets, showed no interest. Just shakes head! Starved for another three days then fed pellets, nothing except a whole lot of head shaking. Now I've noticed one of the new fish shaking head but still eating.

What is going on with these fish?


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