# Which Medicine?



## jennye0 (May 27, 2008)

I have noticed that for the past two weeks, 3 of my young aulonocaras have not been eating. One of them constantly hides in a corner and the other two show interest in food but dont eat it. I think it might be bloat but am not sure because they dont appear bloated and i havent seen the white feces. And i recently lost a lethrinops and tramitichromis who werent eating either. They seem to be ok except for the fact that they are not eating, and they swim around the tank chasing others. All the other fish in the tank are eating ok.

I was trying to find Clout or Metronidazole at my local pet stores but they dont seem to have them anywhere. I was thinking of treatin them with Maracyn-Two because it says that it treats fish who are sluggish and dont want to eat, and maybe adding epsom salt, but will that be enough? Or should I try something else? And should i treat them in a hospital tank or treat the whole aquarium?

They are fed HBH soft spirulina and Omega one. They are in a 75 gallon aquarium in an all male hap and peacock tank with 3 Acei's. There are 18 fish in all. I do a 50% water change every week.

Amonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 20
pH - 8.2
temp. - 78


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

If it's bloat, Maracyn won't help.

When there aren't any visible outward signs of illness, and you're losing fish slowly once they start refusing food, my first suspicion would be bloat.

Fish don't always appear bloated, and it's easy to miss the white stringy feces. Once they stop eating, they usually stop defecating, so by the time you notice they aren't eating, it's hard to tell what's going on.

If it were me, I'd probably go ahead and treat for bloat, just to make sure. Once they stop eating, it can be very difficult to turn things around.

Jungle makes a couple of products that have metronidazole in them...One is Jungle Parasite Clear fizz tabs, and the other is called HITH Guard (I think). If you can't find either of those, look for some PraziPro.

You have two options.

You can isolate the fish who aren't eating into a smaller tank and treat the water column, then feed the fish in the main tank a medicated antiparasitic food. (It's always best if you can get them to ingest the meds - Jungle makes a food that already has medication in it. Good old Jungle...  )

Or, if you don't have a hospital tank, you can treat the water column in the main tank and feed medicated food.

Water changes are key, vacuum the substrate well, since bloat is believed to spread by healthy fish mouthing feces of infected fish.


----------



## jennye0 (May 27, 2008)

Thanks, I think they do have the Jungle meds here. And i'll be doing more water changes. Should i add epsom salt and the meds or the meds by themselves? And I do have a hospital tank, but if I treat the main tank will that stress out too much the fish that are healthy?


----------



## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

You need to treat all fish that have been exposed to the ill fish. Its typical of bloat to only go after one or two fish at a time while the rest of the fish appear perfectly healthy. Meds are most effective against bloat in the early stages of the illness.

Good luck.

Robin


----------



## jennye0 (May 27, 2008)

I ended up treating the whole tank yesterday. One of the aulonocaras died this morning but the rest seem ok. I've been trying to feed them the medicated food but none of them like it, not even the healthy ones. Should I just go back to feeding them the spirulina?


----------



## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

So did you use the Jungle Parasite Clear?


> Should I just go back to feeding them the spirulina?


Do you mean you want to soak the spirulina in metronidazole to make your own medicated food?

The medicated food is the way to go--meds work best if fish eat them but if you're going with pre-made medicated food then you can run into a few problems. 
As you've already discovered often the fish refuse to eat the pre-made stuff. Over time they will probably accept it--same as any new food--but when a fish is sick time is not something you have a lot of. The longer you wait to medicate the less chance there is that the meds will be effective. 
If they DO like it then you are adding the stress of giving them a sudden change in diet which can add to thier overall stress and further weaken their immune system. 
ANd then of course you can't be 100% sure that all fish are getting the correct dosage. Some fish are just going to eat more then others. 
The other issue I see with separating the non-eating fish from the main tank is the circus it often creates to catch the sick fish! That adds to the overall stress, something you don't want to do. (And let's face it: sometimes we just don't have the time to go 'fishing'!)

Which isn't to say that I'm against feeding medicated food. I've done it myself with excellant results but in my case the sick fish were already in quarantine so there was no need to catch them and I made my own medicated food by soaking what they were already eating in metronidazole. 
So you just have to weigh the pros and cons and you may end up keeping all the fish in the main tank and treating the water.

Sorry you lost the aulonocara.

Robin


----------



## jennye0 (May 27, 2008)

Thanks Robin

I treated the entire tank with the Jungle Parasite Clear and so far no new losses. I am going to start the second treatment today, as it says on the box. And i left the sick fish in with the healthy ones so they wouldnt be too stressed out when i netted them.

I didnt soak the spirulina in the medicine.The food I was trying to feed them was Jungle Anti-Parasite Medicated Food, which they absolutely refuse to eat. So should I just go back to feeding the plain spirulina?


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Once they are hungry enough (if you don't offer anything else) they will take the Jungle medicated food. Soak it in tank water for 20-30 minutes and mush it with your fingers a bit.

I've had best success stopping the spread of any disease by using either the antibacterial or antiparasitic medicated foods. They don't generally like it, but they will eat it if they don't see anything else floating around! I just think your chances for successful treatment are improved if you can get them to ingest the meds.

A full round of JPC is considered 3 treatments. Should you not see any improvement after those 3 treatments, you can go another full round.


----------



## BrianR (Aug 19, 2008)

Has anyone had any problem using Jungle parasite clear? I was told on another forum that it stains the tank like clout.


----------



## Guest (Sep 18, 2008)

JPC does not stain the tank, but make sure you do a large water change before the second dose. I've used JPC several times and for the most part, they are effective. However, I have lost a few fish after my second treatment in a few differenc occasions. Also, JPC seems to be hard on the fish and kills weak fish. I treated my 90G with JPC a few weeks ago because my red empress stopped eating for over 2 weeks. My favorite ruby red died after the second dose. Don't know why. There was nothing wrong with him. However, red empress started eating a few days after the second dose. JPC works real well for my discus tank. Good luck.


----------



## BrianR (Aug 19, 2008)

dntx5b9 said:


> JPC does not stain the tank, but make sure you do a large water change before the second dose. I've used JPC several times and for the most part, they are effective. However, I have lost a few fish after my second treatment in a few differenc occasions. Also, JPC seems to be hard on the fish and kills weak fish. I treated my 90G with JPC a few weeks ago because my red empress stopped eating for over 2 weeks. My favorite ruby red died after the second dose. Don't know why. There was nothing wrong with him. However, red empress started eating a few days after the second dose. JPC works real well for my discus tank. Good luck.


Do you have to do 2 treatments of JPC? I was going to do one treatment of JPC and then mix my NLS food with Seachem metronidazole.

Or maybe I should just treat the fish with bloat in a hospital tank and feed everyone in the main tank metronidazole soaked NLS.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

For fish that aren't eating, I wouldn't do less than 3 treatments of JPC, spaced 48 hours apart, with a 25% water change prior to the 2nd and 3rd treatment.


----------



## BrianR (Aug 19, 2008)

cichlidaholic said:


> For fish that aren't eating, I wouldn't do less than 3 treatments of JPC, spaced 48 hours apart, with a 25% water change prior to the 2nd and 3rd treatment.


So would it be best to isolate the fish that isnt eating in a hospital tank, treat him with 3 treatments of JPC, and feed the main tank with NLS that has been soaked in Seachem Metronidazole?


----------



## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

If you want to make your own metronidazole soaked food using the food they are familiar with then that would be a good idea. Seachems makes a binding product, (the name escapes me now :roll: ), that you can use to bind the med to the food but if you're using the NLS pellets that may not be necessary. I've found the NLS pellets do a fairly good job of holding together AND soaking up the metronidazole. 
It can be a little difficult getting the met to dissolve. You want to use as little water as possible.

As far as how many treatments you need to do with the JPC--you don't need to decide that now. Just get through the first one and see how the fish responds. Besides if the fish is still not eating after one JPC treatment then the met-soaked food option isn't going to work anyways.

Where you've already lost one fish and have at least two others that arn't eating the important thing is to get all fish started on a treatment ASAP. If you can't get the met-soaked food going fast enough then treating all fish, eating and non eating with the JPC is a good option.

Good luck with it. Let us know how it goes.

Robin


----------



## BrianR (Aug 19, 2008)

Robin said:


> If you want to make your own metronidazole soaked food using the food they are familiar with then that would be a good idea. Seachems makes a binding product, (the name escapes me now :roll: ), that you can use to bind the med to the food but if you're using the NLS pellets that may not be necessary. I've found the NLS pellets do a fairly good job of holding together AND soaking up the metronidazole.
> It can be a little difficult getting the met to dissolve. You want to use as little water as possible.
> 
> As far as how many treatments you need to do with the JPC--you don't need to decide that now. Just get through the first one and see how the fish responds. Besides if the fish is still not eating after one JPC treatment then the met-soaked food option isn't going to work anyways.
> ...


Im not the one with the fish who died (the OP). I kinda hijacked this thread (sorry). I have 1 fish that stopped eating yesterday so I am going to isolate him and use the JPC treatment on him. For the main tank (the rest are still eating well) I am going to feed NLS that has been soaked in Seachem metronidazole


----------



## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

> Im not the one with the fish who died (the OP). I kinda hijacked this thread (sorry).


 So you did! I didn't notice! 

No problem. Hope your fish recover. Feel free to start a new post if you need more help. That way hopefully I won't get confused.

Robin


----------



## jennye0 (May 27, 2008)

Hey guys

There ended up being about 5 aulonocaras and one otopharynx with bloat. They went through 3 treatments of the Jungle Parasite Clear and now all the aulonocaras are slowly regaining their appetites! And none of the other fish that were healthy got sick!

The otopharynx is not hiding anymore but still wont eat and has some stringy feces. Do yall think that he still has a chance and should I do a 4th treatment?

Thanks for everybodies help


----------



## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Great news on the recoveries. You saved your fish! =D>

Sometimes fish need to be coaxed into eating after not eating. You could try coating his food in a product by Seachem called Entice. Its suppose to make any food irristable. 
If that doesn't work then you could go with another round of JPC, or Clout. Make sure he's had a few days off meds before you treat again. Run fresh carbon in the filter to get rid of any residual meds. Do plenty of water changes, etc.

Robin


----------



## Guest (Sep 24, 2008)

My red empress started eating a few days after my second treatment with the JPC. So, I would say wait a few days and see how your otopharynx is doing and then decide on additional treatments. Glad things worked out.


----------



## jennye0 (May 27, 2008)

Thanks guys

I guess i'll do a couple water changes and wait a couple days before doing another treatment.


----------



## jennye0 (May 27, 2008)

I swear, it's just one thing after the other...

I discovered that one of my aulonocaras had one of its fins clamped to its body and had been hiding for a while. I was wondering if he still had bloat, so I was going to put him in a hospital tank. I took him out today to see if anything was wrong with him and as i lifted his fin i noticed he had a hole on the side of his body! I guess it must be a bite wound.

normal side:









injured side:









I started giving him salt dips but i dont know if i should put any medicines for infection. I dont think it looks infected but im worried if i give him more medicines he can die since he just finished the parasite clear treatments. I also dont know how many salt dips I can give him in one day because he's very little and seems to only stand about 30 seconds in the dip. But after I put him back in the water he goes back to normal.

The good news is all the other fish are cured of bloat


----------



## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Sometimes with bloat they can blow a hole in their side. If this has happened then you'll be able to tell by looking: the opening will be from the inside out. 
From what I can tell in the picture it looks more like something that originated from the outside--a bite, a heater burn or a bacterial infection. The fish's fins don't looked dinged up or biten--have you noticed much in the way of aggresion in the tank?

You're right to be concerned about infection--and from the picture it looks like it could be infected already. The article on Columnaris in the forum's library makes a good case for treating Columnaris with salt dips. If you feel inclined to continue treating that way they I would go ahead. It's normal for the fish to kind of 'freak out' while in the heavy concentration of salt but then like you say he behaves normally once returned to the the unsalted water.

Another option for treating Columnaris is to go with antibiotics. The ones I frequently recommend are: 
Maracyn and Maracyn-two--used concurently
Kanamycn
Triple Sulfa
Furon 2

Turning the heat down to 76 may help slow the bacteria's spread. Salt at the rate of 1 tablespoon per five gallons along with increased water movement may help to prevent the bacteria from adherring to the fish's skin. Fit in as many partial water changes as possible.

Glad to hear the other fish are doing well.

Robin


----------



## jennye0 (May 27, 2008)

Theres is almost no aggression in the tank, just the occasional "get out of may way" chase. They are all 1-3 inches except for the sciaenochromis and acei that are 6". I've noticed that the sciaenochromis is the one who chases most of them around but I figure if it was him that did it, he could have eaten him whole.

His wound looks cleaner than it did yesterday but i can now see that it is a deeper wound. Im worried that it has gone inside. He seems to be a tough little fish because he is doing better with the salt dips and has started eating a little.

The Columnaris article helped me a lot. Last month my big acei had full blown columnaris and she healed completely just with the salt dips.


----------

