# Mbuna dying off one at a time, please help! =( (image heavy)



## feralcoder (Apr 24, 2011)

Hi all. I'm having a problem with my setup, very frustrated, and hoping someone might have some information to help me out.

I have a 60 gallon (48" wide) mbuna tank that has been up and running for almost two years now. 









Water parameters are: 
Temp: 77F
pH: 8.0
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: ~15ppm

I use the rift lake buffer recipe on all water changes, as my natural tap water is a bit soft. Usually do a ~30% water change every 3-4 weeks, which seems to be enough to keep nitrates down.

Substrate is crushed coral. Décor is rocks, lots of rocks, and silk plants.
Filtration is a Marineland Magnum350 canister filter and an Aquaclear powerhead in the tank.

Stocking information (before this all began)
(3) Pseudotropheus socolofi, 4-5"
(3) Labidochromis caeruleus, 3-4"
*(2) Labidochromis caeruleus, 1.5"
(3) Iodotropheus sprengarae, rusty 2-3.5"
*(2) Iodotropheus sprengarae, rusty, 1.5"
(4) Synodontis petricola, 2-3"
(3) Pseudotropheus sp. Acei, "Black Tanzanian acei" 3.5-5"
The two marked with * I picked up in early-mid December from a LFS. They looked quite healthy, about 0.75"-1" in size. One of the yellow labs didn't make it through the first week. No sign of disease or fungus, I think he just got beat up. I really hope that wasn't the cause of all of this. When I introduced them to the tank, I did a thorough cleaning, and rebuilt the rock piles to confuse territories, as seen in the photo above.

The new yellow lab that is still alive is doing very well, growing surprisingly fast. His color is a bit dark, more towards brown than yellow, but I think that has to do with him not wanting to draw attention from the others in the tank? Tell me if I'm mistaken. He has been bright electric yellow in the past.

Fast forward a month or so, to last week. Monday, I woke up to one of the aceis looking very beat up. His (not sure of the sex, never checked before) lips and a chunk of his upper fin looked to have been torn up, but he was swimming upright, backed into a corner. I fed them, and he didn't even budge at the idea of food. I think one of the pellets actually bounced off his face. I feed New Life Spectrum sinking cichlid pellets. That was odd. My fish never ignore food.

Since he seemed to be swimming OK, I took it to be some battle injuries and decided to keep an eye on him. My tank has some light aggression-they chase each other around, but never did they take chunks out of each other, or really do any damage.

That night, when I came home from work, he was dead. The usually solid black sides of the fish had a couple patches of silver. I don't know if the other fish picked on the weakest link in the tank or what.

I pulled him out, not knowing if anything more was going on, I tested the water. Water seemed fine to me.

Everyone else seemed fine. Not a single mark or scratch on anyone else.

The next morning, another of my aceis has some chunks taken out of its top/bottom fins. And the third has some of those bright silver patches on his side. I ended up calling out of work, in a bit of a panic, wondering what was wrong with my tank.









I pulled both of them out and put them in a 2.5gal tank I had lying around with some of the tank water, an aerator and heater. They just sat at the bottom, huddled next to each other, ignoring food. I tried to keep stress low, so threw a towel over the tank to make it dark.

I then did a ~60% water change on my tank, not knowing what was going wrong. I pulled all of the fish out into buckets and vacuumed the heck out of the gravel, rebuilt the rock piles (which I ended up dismantling to catch the two sickly looking ones). They look similar to the photo of my tank above, but I added quite a bit of rock, bridging the left and center piles to add more hiding places.

I asked a friend to come by who has worked at pet stores before, and has kept cichlids for many years. He wasn't sure what was going on. It didn't look like a fungus, fin rot or otherwise. He suggested I leave the large tank alone, as nothing else in there was showing signs of problems, and treat the two I had separated with API Stress Coat, Maracyn-Two, and another I can't recall the name of, but couldn't find locally. A LFS suggested API Pimafix as an alternative.

By the time I got home from shopping, one of the two aceis were dead. I picked up a 5 gallon tank while I was out and set it up with the medication for the remaining fish. He lasted the night, the next day, but died a day later.

At this point, all three of my aceis were dead, with not a single other fish showing any symptoms or issues.

I thought my problems were over, as nothing happened for a few days. Last night when I got home from work, one of my yellow labs was showing similar symptoms. A chunk taken out of its upper fin, some damage by its back fin, and some damage to its lips.

I pulled it out, put it in the 5 gallon hospital tank with the same medications as above. It had more life in it than any of the others when they showed symptoms. In the larger tank it was swimming around a bit more, and fought me when I tried to catch it. In the hospital tank, it even swam around a small bit, investigated, but ended up sitting on the bottom (upright) in a small rock shelter, for the remainder of the night. It was dead when I woke up this morning. 

























Additionally, one of the socolofis was dead in the large tank, wedged in good along the side glass behind a rock. The socolofi showed no signs of trouble last night when I fed them. I ended up going in late to work as I pulled him out and took care of the others. See the photos. 


























I don't know if I'm seeing things because I'm now paranoid, but I think that one of my remaining yellow labs is starting to show something wrong with its lips. I tried to get a good photo but she wouldn't show me the far side. Otherwise, the fish looks fine, healthy. Yes, she seems to be holding. See photo below:









I don't know why it hit specifically the aceis first, and why there was a break for a couple days, and then this again.

Remaining stock in the tank is now:
(2) Pseudotropheus socolofi, 4-5"
(2) Labidochromis caeruleus, 3-4"
*(1) Labidochromis caeruleus, 1.5"
(3) Iodotropheus sprengarae, rusty 2-3.5"
*(2) Iodotropheus sprengarae, rusty, 1.5"
(4) Synodontis petricola, 2-3"
(0) Pseudotropheus sp. Acei, "Black Tanzanian acei" 3.5-5", all dead.

Looking for any help, suggestions you might have. I'm out of ideas. I'm very frustrated&#8230; everything was going well until very recently, and this slow, mysterious, one-at-a-time death is draining on me.


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## swimmingwiththefish (Aug 23, 2012)

I don't have an answer, but a question. You mentioned that you added new fish mid december. Did you quarantine them? I wonder if the new fish had some health problem that is now affecting the rest of the tank. I feel your frustration!


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## feralcoder (Apr 24, 2011)

I did not quarantine them, no. I'm afraid it might come down to that being the source of the problem, and hoping there is still a solution before I lose the rest of the tank. I hoped it was not related since it's been over a month since I added them.

I live in a fairly small apartment, and having another tank set up for quarantine really isn't easy, though, since this all started and I picked up the 5g hospital tank I've been considering ways of getting around that. This morning I thought of the idea of picking up a small HOB filter meant for a 5-10gallon tank, and letting it run off the larger tank. If I had a need to quarantine or separate a fish, I could just move the HOB and its bacteria colony over to the small tank while in use. I guess it would only take a couple weeks for the HOB filter's media to gather up some of the beneficial bacteria, so I could trash the media in between uses.

I realize I forgot a couple things in my previous post:

I don't know the current water hardness levels, haven't checked in a while, and I think my test kit is still on loan to a friend.

I treat the water with CloramX, 1/8tsp per 5gallons when I do water changes.

Let me know if you need any other information.


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

Looks like Columnaris. Keep the temp down, and I would do more water changes.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Hi,
I think there may be some aggression going on. Anytime you have fish that are swimming and eating normally one day and dead the next day aggression should be at the top of the list. Especially if fish are dieing one at a time and you're seeing evidence of chewed fins and battered bodies. 
A problem with the water quality can also cause fish to die fast but you'll usually see all fish react at the same time--although in varying degrees--some may die, some will be gasping at the top or sitting on the bottom and they may stop eating--doesn't sound like that's what's going on with your tank. 
Columnaris is a bacterial disease that comes from a bacterial that is commonly found in healthy tanks but only become a killer, and it can kill VERY fast, when fish become stressed. Stress can be poor water conditions, poor diet, sudden changes in temp, rough handling and definitely aggression and injury from other fish. Once you have open wounds your fish are at risk.

So along with any meds to treat the Columnaris, if that's what it is, you do need to find out what the stressor is in your tank.

To treat Columnaris
First do a partial water change of 40% using a good quality dechlorinator. Siphon the gravel, too. 
Drop temp down to 76. Make sure you have good water movement in the tank. 
Treat with a combination of Maracyn and Maracyn-two, 
Or
Kanamycin, 
Or 
Furan 2
You can also add aquarium salt at the rate of 1 teas per five gallons. The salt doesn't cure but helps prevent the spread. 
In the library on this site is an article on treating Columnaris using a salt bath--different from just adding salt and much more involved but you might read the article and see what you think. 
Robin


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

And we've all taken the chance with new fish and not quarantined. It happens and sometimes you get by with it and sometimes you don't. Your idea of having an extra filter running on your tank for use in a q-tank is a good one. Having the extra filter on the large tank will help to increase water movement--always a good thing.


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## swimmingwiththefish (Aug 23, 2012)

I agree. We've all added fish without quarantining them, I know I have! I hope you figure out what's wrong and get it fixed. Good luck.


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## feralcoder (Apr 24, 2011)

Thanks for the replies.

I already have 1tsp of salt per 5gal through the rift lake buffer recipe. I don't think you mean for me to add any more, but I could be wrong?

I worry that the stressor might just be the new arrangement in the tank. The largest in the tank, a socolofi, seems to think everything belongs to him. If it is damage from fighting, he would be the first that I would suspect, but I've never seem him actually do that kind of damage.

None of them are gasping or acting anything out of the normal.

I've dropped the temp down on the tank to ~75F.

On the recommendation from a friend, I pulled the filter media out and have it in a 2.5gallon tank to keep the bacteria colony in it going. I worried the medication would knock them out when I treat the whole tank. I figure I can swap these back in after treatment and a number of water changes in case the tank starts to cycle again. Thoughts?

I guess I'll treat the whole tank as if it was columnaris unless anyone else chimes in to say otherwise. I won't be able to get the Maracyn till tomorrow after work, already have the maracyn-two.

I'm hesitant to try the salt bath on my fish that aren't showing any symptoms. To actually catch them, I would need to rip up the rock piles again, and since I suspect that aggression might be coming from confused territory I'd like to avoid that for the moment. Please do tell me if my logic here is wrong, or if I should go ahead with salt baths for all the tank residents.

Lastly, does anyone see anything odd about the last picture of the yellow lab? Any thoughts on the condition of her mouth? I'm worried she might be the next to get hit by this.


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

The mouth does look odd, but it appears she's holding.


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## feralcoder (Apr 24, 2011)

I treated the tank with maracyn and maracyn-two as suggested.

At the last moment I realized I should remove the carbon from the filter, so there's that.

No one else has died, but the yellow lab that was holding definitely has something brownish spreading over her face from her lips. Still quite active, not showing any other signs, so I'm really hoping I caught it in time, at least for her.

I feel like I'm not doing enough, but I realize there's not much else I could be doing at this point...


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## feralcoder (Apr 24, 2011)

As an update, I'm on day 3 of medication with maracyn and maracyn-two. The remaining fish are kind of shy, not coming out from the rock piles very often. They seem to be eating less than usual. They still have a food response, but nothing as lively as normal.

The yellow lab is still alive, though hasn't come out to where I can get a good look at her in the last couple days. I'm hoping since she's survived this long, she'll continue to do well. From what I understand, columnaris is a very fast killer.

No fish with new frayed fins or injuries since last week. Keeping my fingers crossed.

In fact... I have two tiny little baby yellow labs in a home-made box floating at the top of the aquarium. I usually let the catfish clean up the fry when they're spit, but when I was checking on the fish yesterday morning, I noticed these two little ones hiding up near the surface behind the powerhead and decided to scoop them out. With all the fish I lost, if I could get these two to survive and grow out, it would be a nice turn of events. 
I considered setting up a second tank for them, but figured I should keep them in the larger tank for treatment like everyone else. One of the other members here, over a year ago, who I bought some fish from showed me how to make those little fry boxes out of plastic craft mesh, so that's what I spent my morning doing yesterday. I gave them some flake food, ground up fine, and they seem to be eating, and darting about in their little home.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Keep an eye on your water parameters while medicating as erythromycin (Maracyn) can be harsh on nitrifying bacteria.


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