# Sumps....why?



## mok3t (Nov 28, 2008)

Okay i understand that a sump is basically a large external filter. But what i dont understand is why people use them. Its a LARGE external filtration system, why not simply use an existing external filter?

Excuse me for sounding quite blunt, didn't intend to hehe. Do sumps add any extra benefits that a standard external wouldn't?


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## venustus19 (Aug 30, 2007)

i will like to know others opinions too, but my first thought was that you can not buy a filter that has the capacity a tank sump would have... i used to have a 20 long as a sump, and when i moved my tank i didn't set that up for time reason, but i plan on putting a sump back together eventually... i think just gives you more water than a canister or HOB... 
will be intersting though


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## jboogerfinger (Apr 16, 2005)

Lots of advantages. First, is open to air thus allowing the water to oxygenate better than an enclosed canister. Second, you can stuff your heater in there so it can't be seen. Or other water treatment media; And third, you can easily change out your floss filter media while the filter is still running. Also, your water level always stays the same in your tank, with evaporation affecting the sump only.


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## venustus19 (Aug 30, 2007)

jboogerfinger... nice name by the way... i chuckled when i typed that out... not really paying attention to it till now... :lol:

you are absolutely right on those advantages... very true...


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## 748johnd (Jun 30, 2007)

Are sumps quiet? Eheim filters are very quiet. Would a sump be as quiet? My wife doesn't want to hear any noise from a fish tank which limits me as far as filtration.


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## jboogerfinger (Apr 16, 2005)

Eheims think Ninjas are loud. :lol: . Sumps usually have a "waterfall' noise but they vary on how loud. Some people love this "white noise" they make, and some don't like any noise. Just depends.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

This is by no means a conclusive listâ€¦ but here ya goâ€¦

1.	Much larger media capacity
2.	Complete freedom for media types
3.	Increases overall water volume (the solution to pollution is dilution)
4.	Increased surface area for gaseous exchanges (= increased oxygen in water)
5.	Offers space to hide heaters & other accessories
6.	Tank can be pushed flat to wall or neatly viewed from front & back (think room divider)
7.	Aquarium will always be full, no unsightly evaporation loss *
8.	Sump can be used as a planted refugium (many Cichlids destroy plants in the aquarium)

*Although both the aquarium and the sump will lose water due to evaporation, the overflows on the tank will ensure the water level on the aquarium remains constant. All evaporation will lower the water level in the sump.



> Are sumps quiet?


It takes some planning to tinkeringâ€¦ but they can be silentâ€¦ Although itâ€™s unlikely youâ€™ll get the first one right.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Toby_H said:


> This is by no means a conclusive listâ€¦ but here ya goâ€¦


Good list... definately why I like sumps... I've never succeeded in making a silent one, but I keep trying! :lol:


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## conor (May 19, 2007)

*jboogerfinger*, Chuck Norris can slam revolving doors.


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## Kevin007 (Jul 20, 2008)

IS it difficult to do so?

I'm not very good at plumbing..and I have an extra 55 Gallon in the future for the 180...

I figured another advantage is that the tank will be every more stable due to the fact that there is even more water.

I can't afford to make a mistake causing 180 gallon of water in my house..


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## Justin1982 (May 28, 2008)

Google search to get a better idea of what is involved. There are a few really good salt water sites out there that will give detailed instructions in their DIY section.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

A sump can only be made quiet if the tank is drilled. HOB overflows are destined to be noisy. There are few good sump designs out there is you have a drilled tank and want to literally eliminate the rushing water noise. And I am talking about the sump, not the drainpipe.

For me the noise is the only reason I got rid of my sump and the reason I will be sticking with my canister.

I only have one other point, and I know this will be taken the wrong way, but I will take that risk. As for the whole oxygenation concept, I will agree in theory with the idea of exposure to the air provides better oxygenation for increased bio filtration capability. However, I have never really seen any evidence for that. I am not saying it is not true, but I have never seen any evidence that it is true - other than subjective anecdotal approximations - which I don't really count as valid evidence.


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## Justin1982 (May 28, 2008)

boredatwork said:


> A sump can only be made quiet if the tank is drilled. HOB overflows are destined to be noisy. There are few good sump designs out there is you have a drilled tank and want to literally eliminate the rushing water noise. And I am talking about the sump, not the drainpipe.
> 
> For me the noise is the only reason I got rid of my sump and the reason I will be sticking with my canister.
> 
> I only have one other point, and I know this will be taken the wrong way, but I will take that risk. As for the whole oxygenation concept, I will agree in theory with the idea of exposure to the air provides better oxygenation for increased bio filtration capability. However, I have never really seen any evidence for that. I am not saying it is not true, but I have never seen any evidence that it is true - other than subjective anecdotal approximations - which I don't really count as valid evidence.


I agree.


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## wheatbackdigger (May 11, 2008)

Don't know if anyone mentioned it, but a sump can be used as a fry tank or isolation tank


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## jboogerfinger (Apr 16, 2005)

> However, I have never really seen any evidence for that. I am not saying it is not true, but I have never seen any evidence that it is true - other than subjective anecdotal approximations - which I don't really count as valid evidence.


Now that I think of it, any water going into an overflow is coming from the surface; which is bound to get oxygenated anyway. At least if there is a descent amount of agitation.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

jboogerfinger said:


> > However, I have never really seen any evidence for that. I am not saying it is not true, but I have never seen any evidence that it is true - other than subjective anecdotal approximations - which I don't really count as valid evidence.
> 
> 
> Now that I think of it, any water going into an overflow is coming from the surface; which is bound to get oxygenated anyway. At least if there is a descent amount of agitation.


I fully agree that it makes sense. And I think it is more likely true than not. But that doesn't mean much. There are a lot of things that make sense when we form the reason from the answer. I just wanted to say that I have never seen any evidence of this claim being proven true, so I would take that argument with a grain of salt.


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## noobdood (Jul 19, 2008)

You don't need a drilled tank for a silent sump. I have a sump with a HOB overflow in the room where I sleep and it is silent.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

Obviously I can't disagree without knowing your setup. However, I would say the chances are slim that your sump is "silent" if even very quiet. Noise is something that is very subjective. When I say quiet I mean canister level quiet. I only know of one way to do that with a sump, and it cannot be safely done with an HOB overflow.

Actually I can figure this out with one question: Does the drainpipe on your HOB overflow suck in air, or is it a true siphon?


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## noobdood (Jul 19, 2008)

I'm sure some air gets in the drainpipe and by silent I mean you can't hear it at night from 10 feet away with the cabinet shut.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

> > Are sumps quiet?
> 
> 
> It takes some planning to tinkeringâ€¦ but they can be silentâ€¦ Although itâ€™s unlikely youâ€™ll get the first one right.


Tricks I've learned...

take a drilled tank... put a bulkhead in the hole with a PVC pipe sticking up out of it... at the top of that pipe put a T fitting... This is MUCH quieter than an open topped pipe...

The bottom side of that pipe should bend at a 45* angle well before it enters the sump... this pipe should end below the water line in the sump... above the waterline in the sump put a T, but do not make the pipe bend. This will leave an opening in which air will escape as opposed to being pushed underwater in the sump where it will make bubbling noises. At high flow rates this added T may allow the sound of rushing water to be heard, but this can be greatly muffled by putting a short pipe in the T with another fitting on it (T or 90 should work).

Some sound will be heard where the aquarium water enters the standpipe, but a canopy should muffle that sound completely.

The return side is much simplier... there are many pumps that are silent when submerged (I have been using SEN pumps for the last 6 months and have thus far been very pleased with them). As long as the return pipe ends below the waterline the returning water should not be heard (don't forget to put a little hole just below the water line when the pump is running which will be just above the waterline when the pump is not running. This prevents the returnline from becoming a siphon to the sump when the pump is turned off).

Then as mentioned, some tinkering will have to be done to get it as quiet as possible. This approach will not truly be "silent" but a canopy should muffle it so it can barely be heard, if at all.

I'm also toying with the idea of putting a T at the top of the standpipe... with a 90* coming off each end of the T, one side pointing up at an angle and the other side pointing straight down... then putting a length of pipe on the downward 90* so that the sump pulls water off the bottom of the aquarium, not the surface. The upward pointing 90 is my "safety" incase the downward one can't keep up with the pump or becomes clogged... But this part is still in the theory stage. I haven't tinkered enough to get it to work AND for me to trust it long term...

I like tinkering with plumbing 

But as everyone else has mentioned... if the tank is not drilled your overflow box is going to make noise... But I'm not a fan of the external overflow boxes.

I also confess I do my exploratory plumbing in the garage fishroom where 30 or 40 gallons of water on the floor isn't a big deal. I wouldn't be so daring in the house...


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

noobdood said:


> I'm sure some air gets in the drainpipe and by silent I mean you can't hear it at night from 10 feet away with the cabinet shut.


A well built cabinet/canopy can make all the difference at silencing a sump... and most other filtration as well...


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

I silence all my aquarium equipment in my house the same way I silence noises from my car... crank the radio up!

Cures all manner of problems!

:lol:


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

If your drainpipe is sucking in air it is impossible that it is quiet. You might be able to hide some of the noise, but if water falling into a sump makes a noise in a cabinet and no one is there to hear it, is there really any noise?

Anyway, I just posted this in a different thread but I will copy paste here. First it is really important to understand where the noise comes from in order to know how to eliminate it. Second, it is important to understand what the "fixes" are doing, like the ones Toby_H mentioned. Most do not address all the noise sources in a sump system, that is why they never seem to meet peoples expectations (even though they are doing what they were intended to). Third, unless you read the whole thread that I linked to you will probably not get to the part about HOB overflows and why this method will not work, since it comes at the end. It took me several days to read through the whole thread, but its worth it. I also spent several weeks experimenting with all the "quiet" methods I could find, including this one. You would be hard pressed to find some technique that I did not come across. The one I linked to was the only one that eliminated the noise completely. I was able to make a sump as quiet as a canister. The only problem is that my test tank was drilled but my real tank is not. So I am happily using a canister and no sump. But I had a lot of fun learning about sump construction while it lasted, haha.



boredatwork said:


> First of all, based on some of the suggestions made it needs to be understood that in a sump system there are two sources of noise: the drain pipe in the tank and the sump. In both the drain pipe and the sump the noise has one cause - the mixture of air and water.
> 
> In the drain pipe the noise comes from air being sucked into the drainpipe. In the sump the noise comes from air exiting the drain pipe, either above or below the water line.
> 
> ...


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## VT4Me (Mar 23, 2008)

Is this useful to the discussion?

http://www.dursostandpipes.com/?page_id=6


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## TrashmanNYC (Dec 10, 2007)

what exactly do the overflows do?


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## sjlchgo (Mar 2, 2008)

TrashmanNYC said:


> what exactly do the overflows do?


Overflows get the water from the tank to the sump.


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## sjlchgo (Mar 2, 2008)

One thing I never really got about the "heater in the sump" part is this....How does the water have time to heat in the sump if it's passing thru at 600+ gals an hour?


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## TrashmanNYC (Dec 10, 2007)

sjlchgo said:


> TrashmanNYC said:
> 
> 
> > what exactly do the overflows do?
> ...


it just flows over the top and right into the sump?


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## Fishfeind (Jan 16, 2007)

Well some overflows are corners in the tank where a plastic separator sits. There are slits at the top and the water drains over at the same rate the the pump returns it. Inside this column, if you will, is a plastic drain pipe with a sponge prefilter. The other option is a syphon overflow box, which uses the higher water level in the tank in order to continue the syphon. This unit hangs on the back or sides of the tank and one or two down hoses go down into the sump. Hope this helps.

First:

http://monsteraquarium.net/__oneclick_u ... x-blog.jpg

Second:

http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/demo ... ow_box.jpg


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## fishyfishyfishy (Dec 24, 2005)

One of the biggest advantages of a sump system is flow. With a sump system, you're flow doesn't slow down due to clogging filters. This allows you to always maintain a consistant high flow. The steady flow is advantageous as well if you want to put a UV on your return line since you can always keep it in the optimal flow range.

The overflow choice as well can contribute to improved flow. The built-in overflows like those from All-Glass pull in water from the bottom, middle and top layers of the tank which greatly contributes to circulation as well. Hang on type can be made to be just as quiet, but only pull water from the top of the tank. This makes them less effective for mechanical filtration. And, they're unsightly as well. Built-ins can be as well, but there are more options that make them practically disappear.

Great article here about water movement advantages:

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/w ... vement.php

Also, pretty much anything you do in the tank itself can be done in the sump instead. This keeps unsightly heaters, intakes, pumps etc. out of tank and hidden in the sump and stand where they can't be seen. On my largest tank I even plumbed an Ocean Clear type polishing filter directly to the sump with another pump. Water is pulled out of the sump, passes through the dual 25 micron cartridges and then sent right back to the sump. This provides a large sump full of polished water for the main return pump.

This article gets lost under it's title, but goes into great detail about the advantages of sumps:

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/plumbing_faq.php

And of course there's ease of maintenance. I've got 4 tanks in the house and I personally despise the maintenance of canister filters. For my wet/drys it's just a matter of sliding out the tray and swapping out the filter pad and I'm done.


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## Chris2500DK (Feb 15, 2006)

Another advantage of a sump is that you can use hornwort or other fast growing plants to suck up nitrates from the water without having them in your display.

If I had a freshwater setup with a sump I'd have hornwort and breed red cherry shrimp in there for sure. Better water quality and live food for the fish.


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## Hoosier Tank (May 8, 2007)

fishyfishyfishy said:


> "SNIP" Hang on type can be made to be just as quiet, but only pull water from the top of the tank. This makes them less effective for mechanical filtration. And, they're unsightly as well. Built-ins can be as well, but there are more options that make them practically disappear..


To every rule there is an exception  
*bulldogg7* has a great article in our library on "Skimmerless overflows" that draw water from below the surface. *HERE*
This is my version. Granted they aren't as invisible as a built in system, but I had a tough time getting a good pic of them in order to get the flash to reflect so you can see them. So maybe they aren't too "unsightly"... :wink:


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