# please help identify



## VioletRooster (Oct 2, 2009)

I have six smallish African Cichlids. I am wondering if you can tell me what type they are. Also, I would like to know if, when full grown, these six will do okay together (generally speaking), as well as if, when full grown, a 55 gallon is suitable for them, and if I can add any more African Cichlids in a tank that size with them (and if so, which kinds). Right now I have them in a 20high with lots of hidey spots and they seem to do pretty good together right now, but am making plans to upgrade the tank soon so need more info so I can get them set-up properly.

I was told this one is a "bumble bee"? What is the proper name. This guy is pretty outgoing!









This guys stripes get a litter darker than that, but sometimes they disappear completely. This guy is a bit of a bully and is very outgoing!









This one is also very outgoing and likes to bully a bit.









This one is pretty timid so far so I wasn't able to get a very good picture:









I was told this was a Red Zebra? What's the proper name? This one is very outgoing but pretty nice.









This one has been pretty timid, too, but is starting to be a bit more adventureous unless I come near the tank, than it hides. Bad picture because of that, it's more silvery with dark stripes, and redish color on the fins. I think I was told Red Jake???









Thanks so much for any help you can provide!

:~) Kelly


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

#1 Bumble Bee- _Pseudotropheus crabro_. Its a highly aggressive species and once mature could easily dominate an 55g tank (often with bad results).

#2 Not really sure. Possibly a _Labodichromis perlmutt_, but don't quote me on that.

#3 _Melanochromis johanni_, male in transition from juvenile orange to male coloration. Another rather aggressive species, but can be managed through propper male/female ratios.

#4 _Pseudotropheus demasoni_. Another really aggressive species and has to be kept as either a single specimen or in a species group of at least 12. They area dwarf species (adult size of around 3") so not too much of an issue in a 55g.

#5 Indeed a Red Zebra -_Metriaclima estherae_ (Red). Aggressive, and if it turns out to be male could be a problem in a 55g, recomednded tank size for this species is a 75 with proper male/female ratios.

#6 is a peacock. Its hard to tell which species due to the darknes of the pic, but the forehead contours would have me agree that it is one of the _Aulonocara jacobfreibergi_ variants. Possibly a Eureka, as they seem to have more red while the rest of the "jakes" are on the yellow side.

Ok, now with the exception of the "jake" all the rest of the fish are grouped in to category or mbuna. Mbuna are rock dwelling, polygamous mouth brooders (females incubate the eggs in their mouths for protection).

They can really only be successfully kept in two ways. Because of the social requirements and aggression levels in cichlids they have some rather specific stocking requirement that are quite different from your standard tropicals. Many species are completely incompatible with each other in certain sized tanks and some can just never be together.

There are usually two "standard" stocking styles with africans (sinc most of the fish available in fish store are from Lake Malawi I will address those mainly). They are Breeding Groups and All Male. While the fish are juveniles many with get along, but once sexual maturity sets in their personalities change drasticly often with dire consequences.

In a Breeding Group setup you would pick a couple (usally 2-5 species depending on tank size) and stock it as 1 male with 3-5 females of each species. This allows each male to have his territroy and the multiple females is so that the male's spawning aggression is spread out enough so that he doesn't harrass them to death. When choosing this method the species chosen must be compatible for the tank size and with each other as inter-species aggression (male that look too similar or need more territory than given) can be deadly for all involved. You also have to avaoid species that will interbreed with each other as rampant hybridization is a major problem in the hobby.

The benefits of this type of set up is you get to see all the interesting social behaviors during courtship and territorial displays, and have the joy of seeing and raising the resulting fry. 
The main draw back is that breeding and territorial aggression can be fierce it take a good bit of work to end up with a harmonias community.

The other option is All Male. It this set up you would have a single male of many different species. Without the females to fight for they are not as aggressive and since many species have colorful males yet drab females gives you a much more vibrant tank.

Benefit: everybody is colorful and you don't have to figure out what to do with all the fry the breeding groups can produce. This method is very popular when done with species from the peacock and haplochrome groups as they have some of the most visually stunning males and almost all of the females are drab. Plus these species tend to only be territorial when actually breeding so remove the breeding drive and every just hangs out

The drawbacks are, it can take a while with switching out various males to find the best personality matches and since many of the species don't show male coloration until they are more mature females can get by and casue all sorts of problems in the social order (think a single cheer leader locked in a room with 25 teenage boys. Lots of fighting between males and one very harrased female.

An all male set up can be done with species from the mbuna group, but this can be more difficult because male mbuna keep and defend territories all the time, even when not breeding so the it is much more critical that all the males be very mellow and look very different to prevent disputes.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

I think #2 is a transitioning M. lombardoi.


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

Fogelhund said:


> I think #2 is a transitioning M. lombardoi.


Ooh, I think your right. Adding that to the mix just increased the blender speed to liquify!


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## VioletRooster (Oct 2, 2009)

Oh wow, you have to love what the petstore sells you, huh?!

So, with this exact grouping, what are my options.... split them up and put them in a lake-sized tank?!?! LOL!

I definitely don't want to go the breeding group method!

If I were moving them into a 55 gallon, are there any in this group that could manage okay with enough rocks and holes and stuff to hide in? Who would I take it to make this manageable?

I can't imagine where I could put it, but if I were to be able to set up a 75 gallon, would that "probably" be okay for them?

Man, who new fish could have such social issues!! I've only had goldfish and bettas before these guys, and they were sooooooo boring! I'm loving these guys because they are so interesting and always up to something! But I don't know if I'd like having a huge tank with only a few fish in it!!!


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

VioletRooster said:


> I definitely don't want to go the breeding group method!


How come? My breeding group tanks are my favorites. Though I only keep fry from two of the species.



> Man, who new fish could have such social issues!! I've only had goldfish and bettas before these guys, and they were sooooooo boring! I'm loving these guys because they are so interesting and always up to something!


That is both their allure and their curse. Its the challenge that draws so many people.



> But I don't know if I'd like having a huge tank with only a few fish in it!!!


In a 55g you could do 3 species (1m/3-4f each) with the proper gender ratios, over crowding mbuna a bit actually helps.


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## VioletRooster (Oct 2, 2009)

I've got enough babies around here to deal with! LOL! I breed Bearded Dragons and Crested Geckos. And I breed hamsters but that's for my son's snake (although I tend to keep the ones I love)... and I've got a poo-poo load of kids on top of that! I want a nice tank to watch and relax too, and not have to worry about more more more! LOL!!!!

I think I know someone in the area who will take whichever Cichlids I can't keep. So now to decide which of these will work okay together in a 55 gallon (or maybe a 40breeder... wold they do okay in a 40breeder, 'cause I seem to have extra's of those....)

My favorite is the blue one, by far. I also love the bumblee bee. I like the Red Zebra's personality quite a bit (thus far)... my least favorite is #3 (just based on CURRENT looks)

but I wouldn't even know how to pick males if I were doing all males....


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

If you were to just let any holding females spit in the tank, all the adults (the mother included) would clean them right up. You might get 1 or two that survive, but with mbuna that wouldn't be very likely.

Unfortunately, pretty much none of them could cohabitate in a 55g. The Met. lombardoi is definitely a male and they need atleast the space of a 75 (seriously brutal fish), the red zebra and the crabro and possibly the demasoni could work in a 55g if they were all females, but throw a male in that mix and it will get ugly.


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## VioletRooster (Oct 2, 2009)

Ah, I see!

Now how easy is it to differentiate males from females when you're getting them from petstores???

Here's another question, is there any SINGLE one of them that could stay in the 20 gallon as an adult? Obviously not the one you said needs the 75 minimum... what of the others?

Also, say I moved some of them into a 55 and let them age to see how they interacted....would I have some forwarning as to if they're going to rip each other up, so I'd have time to seperate them then? Or once they set their mind to it, will it be like a whirlwind?!?

Thanks so much for your time in answering my questions!


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

VioletRooster said:


> Now how easy is it to differentiate males from females when you're getting them from petstores???


For the most part, no. Most species are identical as juveniles. It is possible to vent them (looking at their genitsal openings) pretty reliably once they are over the 2.5 inch mark, but venting in and of itslef is tricky (some expamples)



> Here's another question, is there any SINGLE one of them that could stay in the 20 gallon as an adult? Obviously not the one you said needs the 75 minimum... what of the others?


The Ps demasoni or the M. johanni could probably be fine all by them selves, but since all these guys are highly social animals, you will not get any entertainment value out of them as a lone fish. They will just sort of sit there.



> Also, say I moved some of them into a 55 and let them age to see how they interacted.


While they are juveniles this will work fine. It may even continue to work as adults-there are always exceptions to the rule.



> would I have some forwarning as to if they're going to rip each other up, so I'd have time to seperate them then? Or once they set their mind to it, will it be like a whirlwind?!?


No, it almost always goes from just fine to totaly bloodbath almost over night.


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## pikayooperdave (Jul 10, 2009)

With the stock you currently have, I would go the all male route. Get rid of the peacock (the timid one, last picture) and you can keep everything else, and pick up another 5 or so male mbuna of your choice. In my experience, all male mbuna tanks work just fine (have had 3 of them in the last several years). Once in awhile you get someone who is over-agressive that you have to get rid of, and once in awhile you get someone who is a wimp and you have to get rid of, but just deal with that as it comes and an all male mbuna tank can work great.


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## VioletRooster (Oct 2, 2009)

Okay I think I'll give that a try... Is it best to get all different types of Mbuna, or can I get some of the same? Also which are the easiest to tell are male when I'm at the store?????

For instance, what about putting Yellow Labs with them?


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

VioletRooster said:


> Is it best to get all different types of Mbuna, or can I get some of the same?


If you are going for all male then it has to be one fish per speicies. You can definitley have a yellow lab in the mix.


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