# Upper PH/KH/GH Tolerance for Bolivian Rams?



## Cook.MN (Mar 11, 2008)

So I have hard water, no way to get around that fact.

I have tried DI & RO Water, along with having 2 x 20-24 inch pieces of Driftwood, have tried to use peat moss in my Bio-Wheel filter and there's no getting around it.

Tank is 55 Gallons, it's a planted tank using Eco-Complete Plant substrate. After doing all of the above here are my water parameters:

KH 215 ppm
GH 304 ppm
PH 8.0

My plants seem to be doing really well, my tetra and shrimp are doing well too. However I want my center piece fish to be Bolivian Rams and I can't seem to locate any information on their upper tolerance for water hardness.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Hope this helps ... collection data from Linke and Staek's trip that finally found the elusive bolivian ram (appearantly they are hard to find in the wild).

pH: 7.6
GH: 4 dH
KH: 4 dH
Temp: 27 C
Conductivity: 123 micro-Siemens

This if from their book, "American Cicihlids 1: Dwarf Cichlids."


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## Cook.MN (Mar 11, 2008)

Yeah it does help, just means my KH and GH are high for wild caught Bolivians...extremely high for them that is.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

But luckily, the bolivians you see won't be wild caught. Still, that is a huge differance if my math is right 10ppm=1dH. The only time I've kept bolivians was in my local tap water, which is luckily perfect for south americans. But that's usual, most of the country's tap water is hard water, so I am sure someone else will come forward and said they've breed them in harder water.


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## Cook.MN (Mar 11, 2008)

I hope so, it's been hard trying to find a breeder of these to begin with, but it looks like if it's possible then I need to start looking for one that has had them in harder water.


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

I keep my bolivians in

pH 7.2
kH 2 dH (36 ppm)
gH 3 dH (54 ppm)
temp 77

I am lucky enough that those are the readings of my tap water, so it is very close to their natural parameters. I am sure some people here keep their rams in hard water so hopefully they will offer their thoughts. I would continue to mix the RO water with your tap until you get something more reasonable, like pH <7.6, kH and gH <10 dH

Good luck :thumb:

Ed


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

The PH is doable but probably eggs won't be fertilized at PH=8. You could bring that down with peat and at PH=7.6 they will successfully spawn. If the math is right your problem is in the KH and GH. I do suggest a RO unit. This definitely will solve the KH and GH problem.



> Hope this helps ... collection data from Linke and Staek's trip that finally found the elusive bolivian ram (appearantly they are hard to find in the wild).
> 
> pH: 7.6
> GH: 4 dH
> ...


Thanks dwarfpike! This data is new to me and confirms my experiences with the specie that they do best on PH around 7. I do have some doubts abouth the measurement becouse it GH and KH are the same. The temps is higher as I expected. Is there some info in there abouth the location?


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## Cook.MN (Mar 11, 2008)

First post I mentioned all the things I have tried to soften my water


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

*Cook.MN* - Do you own your on RO unit? Or were buying it from a lfs? If you own your own, it's just a simple matter of 1 part tap water to 19 parts RO water. But I am guessing it was purchased water since no one mentioned either way or said to just add more RO water.

*Dutch Dude* - Alas, the locality was just mentioned as the vacinity of Trinidad, Bolivia in a still water catchment ditch basically. Hence the higher temp, clarity was less than 5cm.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Thanks for the info dwarfpike!!! It is highly appreciated. There is a real lack on info abouth the natural habitat of Bolivians so every reliable info is welcome. The higher temp is related to the location. But,....still very useful and this proves Bolivians do tolerate higher temps,....at least short term. Thanks again :thumb:


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Yes I have seen you tried RO water but at what quantity? Some people expect a diference wit 10% RO and 90% tapwater during water changes. I can assure you this won't make much of a diference and not worth the effort. A mix of 30% RO and 70% tapwater should make a diference. Your KH and GH is rather high so you might want to do your water changes with 70% RO and 30% tapwater.


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## Cook.MN (Mar 11, 2008)

I've put in over 40 gallons of DI water into this 55 Gallon tank and those are my readings for my water parameters.

Something is indeed up as my two large pieces of driftwood should have had an impact on it. So I'm beginning to think that my substrate is in fact buffering my water.


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## jcushing (Apr 6, 2008)

eco complete says its not supposed to affect water conditions PH or hardness, infact it "says" its packed in liquid blackwater....

you check the hardness with another tester?


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Hmmm,....this can't be the water so there must be something in the tank or something wrong with the test kit. Did you used stones in the tank? I reed some responses on a board that some people think it leaks nutrients to the water. This can also couse a high KH and GH. Did you checked the tap water separately? If you do you can pour some in a cup and wait for a day before testing it. This gives a more accurate reading. If the tap water doesn't contain the high KH and GH it is definitely something in the tank. My tapwater for comparison; PH=8.5 GH=14, KH=7. I use 60% RO and 40% tapwater and the reading for my tank is; PH=6.7 , GH=5, KH=1-2 and conductivity 270 micro Siemens. I don't use peat or a CO2 system in this tank. The substrate is sand (1 inch) and it contains a lot of driftwood. Water is hardly colored so the driftwood didn't influenced the water that much.


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## dreday (Oct 12, 2007)

that is hard but i do not think it would harm them to much. the blue rams are supposed to be more sensitive but heres my story...

a breeder i know breeds the blue rams in hard water. has 4 generations now in hard water. i bought 3 from him and had my tank all set up with soft water for me anyway(with peat and wood as yours) ph was 7.4 temp 77, gh 1.6 no kh test. my tap is 7.6ph, 2.4gh. so slightly softer but i did not use RO water. he told me that hard water would be fine. so now they are in 7.6ph with gh at 2.2.

so i would think that acclimating them to the water would be fine. if you want to breed you may want to set up a 10g for breeding only. make it softer than the main tank. use the drip method to transfer the fish each time. leave the eggs in the 10g with parents until they are wigglers. then as they grow use RO water with wc and add more and more tap water each time. till you get to only tap water and the fish are around .75"(should be about 4months old)

anyway i believe that is the pattern the breeder i know does. except know he does not use RO water anymore with the blue rams. so i hope that helps. :roll:


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## Cook.MN (Mar 11, 2008)

The following are the readings from my tap water after letting it sit for 24 hours:

PH: 8.2
KH: 358 ppm
GH: 465ppm

So I guess using the DI, Peat Moss and Driftwood has helped lower it...I just need to find something that will lower it drastically more.


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## dreday (Oct 12, 2007)

not much else. i have heard of almond leaves but they are expensive. the best is start with RODI and then buff it up. it is easier to buff up than down.

easier to add than subtract(at least in real life) :roll:


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## jcushing (Apr 6, 2008)

man you have great malawai water lol, maybe you should look at those


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## Cook.MN (Mar 11, 2008)

I have a tank of Mbuna...easiest tank I've ever had water wise.


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## star rider (Mar 20, 2006)

shouldn't the RO/DI unit remove most if not all the minerals (gh/kH) should be near 0

you would have to do more maintenance as a result as the membranes and resin would exhaust sooner.
do you have a RO/DI or are you purchasing the water labeled as RO/DI


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## Cook.MN (Mar 11, 2008)

I'm purchasing DI and RO water which is getting to be a small fortune.

I was thinking, would boiling the water in peat have any effect on lowering the hardness of it?


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## jcushing (Apr 6, 2008)

you can buy your own RO filter, i dont think you need the DI portion for freshwater. if your going to be keeping theese fish long term i cant see buying all the water for water changes, what if you need to do an emergency WC?


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## Vincent (May 7, 2004)

I would just give them a try in your tap water first before going to all this trouble. Some local folks have gotten Bolivians to breed in our hard, high pH water:

http://www.utahaquatics.com/viewtopic.php?t=6950
http://www.utahaquatics.com/viewtopic.php?p=48411#48411


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