# Doubt about the identification of my Tropheus



## doc35 (Oct 15, 2002)

Are they Kiriza or Pembas???

this are my Tropheus about 6 months ago





































and the same fish yesterday!!




























Thank you for your comments, I've been looking in books, Atlas, and Webs ut my doubts still remain!!


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## szolcichlid (Jun 29, 2006)

Hi doc35,

when I read your earlier thread with pictures, I saw what I thought were pembas (in the last picture), maybe you have hybrids between the two species? They do look like crossbred kiriza/pemba. I never had the experience of having raised pembas, so maybe that's how they morph into their orange-ish colour as they mature?, or maybe you were given a mixture of pemba/kiriza fry? Is there any way you can double check through your seller?

I too have a small colony of 24 kirizas all raised from fry, and I have never seen that type of coloration happen, and the same can be said for my fish buddies who have kiriza trophs as well. I hope I am wrong, and that they colour up yellow for you.

Best,

szolcichlid


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## doc35 (Oct 15, 2002)

The problem here in Mexico is that the Sellers are more ignorant than a rookie in this matter!!!!
the seller will not clear my doubts, they sell them only as Tropheus moori, and meybe you're wright, I thought they were kirizas when they were young and because that's the only species of Tropheus sold in Mexico since many years!, and I had some kirizas before, and now when they grew i saw this orangish color, and my doubts arouse!
You can see a fish that I had in the Profiles in this page of Tropheus black Kiriza my name is Hector Cordero

Well I'll wait for more oppinions! and see what happens!

Thank you! :thumb:


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## jetchanic (Jul 14, 2008)

Are the fish always flashing these colors? or are they normally yellow and occasionally orange?


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## doc35 (Oct 15, 2002)

I think they change, when they are all the color1, mainly the male he is more yellow!
not all orange!
that's why i thought they were Kirizas
see!


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I saw this maybe help put your mind at rest?
Not sure if they are pure kiriza but if a hybrid/regional cross they are common enough to breed from in most places.
No more harm than good as long as you sell or give them away as nothing they are not (that is sure fire pure Kiriza) then enjoy breeding em.





Sure is a problem here even when the shop/dealer tries to label em accurately they do not always turn out as planned.

I would like to say cull all suspected regional type crosses but that would be ridiculous given that there are so many of us breeders who do not separate all regional types/species in our tanks.

A very sad state I admit.


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

You can expect both colour schemes with kiriza. Some don't care for the orange, and cull those particular fish.

Check the second and third pic in this profile

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... hp?id=1842


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## doc35 (Oct 15, 2002)

The second picture in the profile is a fish I had some Year ago! I am Hector Cordero!
and this fish looks very alike than the ones I have now!

and in this video I think the difference between Pembas and Kirizas is notable!!


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

Uh, there are no pembas in that video. They're all kiriza.


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## punman (Oct 24, 2003)

I have 30 Kirizas. When I had them shipped in as juveniles 1/4 of them seemed more orange but after they settled in, most reverted to yellow. 
From time to time, the odd one will show more orange. I checked with the importer as they came from Africa, and he assured me this was okay- and a very reputable dealer.


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

so how can you tell the difference between Kiriza or Pemba then?


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

Very different looking as fry for one thing. Kiriza fry are very yellow, pembas are not.


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

In this pic these Tropheus are suppossed to be all Pemba/Bemba. The five Tropheus in the center are from a group from one seller, their yellow is broader with barring. The one fish on the upper left is from another seller, the ones from the seller #2 are darker with the barring faded more. Side by side they look kinda different, so I wonder, obviously fish change with mood. Ignore the Calvus.


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## Mr Goby (Apr 20, 2006)

Bars on this shot look too wide for them to be Kiriza's










The yellow colouring you see could be down to not enough carotenoid content in their diet?
Fish use carotene to develop their colour patterns, a lack of it as they grow and develop may lead to adult colours that don't quite hit the mark.
Also the quality of the parental stock is important as well, if the adults were wildies then you should expect good colour (as long as the young have been reared well that is). 
The parents could have been many generations removed from wild stock and inbred to **** and back for all you know? (although the fish you have look OK)
Also full adult Tropheus colour patterns can take time to develop.
My advice, get some frozen cyclops down them and feed on pellets and flake with a high spirulina content, also keep the water clean and nitrates as low as possible and then see how they develop :wink:


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## doc35 (Oct 15, 2002)

Thank you for the advice, I feed them only with New Life Spectrum twice a day, water changes every 8 days, the nitrates are 0-5 even if I don't change water in 15 days, I don't know what F are them, probably a lot! but I think they are all Kirizas, and lets see how they develop!!!

:thumb:


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## Mr Goby (Apr 20, 2006)

Sorry but not used to seeing Kiriza's with orange on them thats all.
To me Kiriza's are a yellow banded Tropheus not orange, thats why I suggested they were Bemba's.
I've swam with Kiriza'a in the wild and collected them and don't ever remember seeing any with orange like that. Now further up the coast at Bemba and bingo you'll find Tropheus with orange on them instead.
Putting my observations of wild fish aside I suppose in captive bred stocks anything can happen (and probably does!)


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## doc35 (Oct 15, 2002)

Yes cross breeding too! and maybe thats the item there!

Thank you for your comments!!!


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## geoff_tropheus (Feb 13, 2003)

It is rumored that Burundi farms messed up Kiriza from their line breeding operations to get Golden Kiriza and other morphs.

In the process, bemba got mixed in.

It is only very rare, that you'll get true wild Kiriza. All Kiriza in the market from Africa are Burundi Pond Raises.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I kind of suspected that. Oh those Burundi guys have made me seek out genuine WC Tropheus with all their inherent problems of getting em tank acclimatised and getting em to breed in tanks etc etc. I would not recommend genuine WC to anyone except a nutter like me. Happy to pay a fortune and lose some before getting em fully healthy and breeding. :roll: 
Maybe I am not lucky but real WC seem to need a lot of TLC and treatments and luck to to get em breeding?
It kind of makes me sad when folk (who are clearly better at keeping em and breeding em) mess about with them.


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## tank (Dec 20, 2002)

http://www.airfish.de/stocklist/Tropheu ... bemba.html

Wild bembas with orange and yellow?


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## geoff_tropheus (Feb 13, 2003)

You will notice on their website, those bemba's are tankraised. I dont think those fish pictured are Wildcaught.


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## Longstocking (Aug 26, 2003)

Those loo like mboko to me.... in that airfish picture. Not bemba.

I picked up a group of TR bemba last week. I have watched these fish grow from 1.25 inch in my friends tank. They have never been anythig but orange. They came from Atlantis.

The problem with bemba right now is their habitat is being destoyed (This is what I have been told, could be just a rumor, who knows????).


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

So is the assumption that pure Kiriza or Bemba/Pemba is probably actually rare and exaggerated? They may have been line bred or even mixed somewhere, even in Africa? 

Have Bemba/Pemba been line bred in captivity to be darker? I thought they have been hard to collect for a couple decades because of the political situation anyway.


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## Longstocking (Aug 26, 2003)

> So is the assumption that pure Kiriza or Bemba/Pemba is probably actually rare and exaggerated? They may have been line bred or even mixed somewhere, even in Africa?


I think this is a bit exaggerated. Just because one company messed up a long time ago doesn't mean other companies did. Some are probably pure... some are not. I find looking at wild pictures and comparing helps to decide what you have. Sure there are variations within one locale, but not THAT much difference.


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## geoff_tropheus (Feb 13, 2003)

Too much trouble for the most part to get fish from that area, especially when Burundi Farms is pondraising them and sells to the market worldwide those fish. Its just not good business to do so.

As long as everyone getting fish from there understands the fish are not Wild-Caught.

They are being pondraised. Which makes it difficult, but not impossible, to keep their quality, when the in-breeding and bad breeding practices may have occured.

The color and size compared to Wildcaught is the most effected.


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