# Gymnogeophagus question



## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

hey, do you guys think it is possible top have any of the Gymno spp. in a 29g? i have quite a few spp available to me right now.

heres a list:

Balzanii
Australis
Rhabdotus
sp. "Norte" (Meridionalis)
sp. "Neon Blue"

opinions are all welcome, even if you think im an idiot for even considering this (im starting to think so myself )


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

The term is 'crazy canuck' ... not idiot *Gage* ... and despite what most americans say, they aren't the same thing!! 

I've always shied away from these guys when I've seen them at the LFS just becuase haven't had room to give them their own tank and couldn't risk the amazon species during the cooling phase. So hopefully someone that keeps them will speak up. First guess though, the balzanii would be last on the list, males can be very rough on females ... not sure if a 29 gal would work with them.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

I don't think a 29 will be large enough for any of the species. Maybe a pair of (ex)meridionalis,...but they should be kept in small groups of 5 or more just like geophagus. In the cool period Gymno's are les active but in the summer period they definitely need a larger tank. Tanks of 75 gallon and larger are more suitable for Gymno's. Dwarfpike is right,....balzanii are the more boisterous and territorial fish and especially the males.

On CRC forum are some real experts like Fellipe and Bas Pels. You could ask their opinion as well. I think Bas is the most fanatic Gymno owner on that board and is more experienced in their behaviour and needs when kept in a home aquarium while Felipe is one of the two people with a license to export the fish from Uruguay. He knows everything abouth their natural habitat and their needs.


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## duaneS (Aug 31, 2006)

I agree with Dutch Dude, I believe if you get them small and keep them cold until you get a bigger tank, it might work. 
For the winter I've got my Paso Pache in a tank on the basement floor, and the temp now is now in the low 60s F, and they are fairly docile.








But this summer when the temp in the pond was up in the mid 70sF, they were aggressive in the 300 gallons of the pond.


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## shef (Oct 3, 2004)

I just got a pair of Gymnogeophagus rhabdotus from Spencer. They are in a 20g right now (still pretty small and very shy. I do have a larger tank to move them too once they get bigger. The rhabdotus seem to get about 6" so personally I think you'd be ok in a 29g tank. Just give them lots of hiding places. these are a really pretty little fish!


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

ok, i wasnt sure if they were pairing or harem, if they prefer groups i wont bother, and if i get a bigger tank for them (55g probably) id go with some red hump geos (G. steindachneri)

thanx for the replys everyone


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

(ex)meridionalis are from the Rhabdotus family and do best in groups of at least 5. Maybe it is possible to keep a pair but I realy recommend to keep them in a group. Lots of fish that lives in groups like most of the Geophagus, Guianacara but also fish like Bolivians do poor if kept in pairs or single. Pairs can work but if males are ready to breed but the females aren't it is not rare that males chase the females to death. In a group the atention will also fade to the other inhabitants and several males keep each other in line. If this is also the case with rhabdotus or meridionalis I can't confirm. I never kept Gymno's but did a lot of research on them and talked to Bas and Fellipe. Duane,...your fish are from the Gymnogenys group and quit diferent as the rhabdotus. The Gymnogenys group should be kept in a harem. This is how they occur in the wild as well. For 2 males you will need quit a large tank but then they will defelop an larger head hump. Did you know the Rhabdotus group and Gymnogenys group can be mixed? You do have wonderful fish! I planed on keeping 1 male and 2 females Gymnogenys PP and 5 (ex)Meridionalsi PP. Unfortunately Bas had some bad luck with his breeding pairs. After 1 year looking at a empty tank I changed it to a discus tank,.....and what happened,...Bas contacted me this week that he had some gymno's availeble :? Well,...thats bad luck but I'm to much addicted to the discus right now so maybe later. I do like the coloration and exclusivity of the Gymno's!


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

thanx for the info Dutch Dude, your convincing me to try something else, maybe i will try and sneak another large tank for some true geophagus, instead, and do a pair of scalare angels instead, unless i get the OK from the guys on cichlidae.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

shef said:


> I just got a pair of Gymnogeophagus rhabdotus from Spencer. They are in a 20g right now (still pretty small and very shy. I do have a larger tank to move them too once they get bigger. The rhabdotus seem to get about 6" so personally I think you'd be ok in a 29g tank. Just give them lots of hiding places. these are a really pretty little fish!


i dont want to do a pair if they arent naturally kept in pairs, this is why i was asking if a group could work, being that the sp. Norte only get 4-5", i doubt it will be an OK, but i figured it is worth getting opinions on though, and so far, looks like angels are the way to go compared to these guys.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

For the cool period 4 to 5 (ex)Meridionalis (Norte is meridionalis) could be doable in the 29 but as soon as the temps go up you will definitely need a 55 or larger! Keep in mind that footprint of the tanks is more important as the volume. The sizes I mentioned is with normal dimensions and no high tanks.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

ya, because it does seem none of them will be happy in a 29 permanently, i will go with something else.

do you guys think a pair of Pterophyllum scalare (common angels) would be OK in there? or again to big?


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Breeders use 29 gallons for a confirmed pair ... but the pairing process takes place in a much larger tank. Angels don't seem to force pair very well. And a non pair will become one in a 29 rather quickly.


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## duaneS (Aug 31, 2006)

I find it's very hard to "force" pair, most cichlids, although I have been surprised a few times, 
my haits were such a forced pair, and it's worked well.








But most of the time I find it better to raise a group and let them decide. 
The Gymnos are in a group of 6, 2 males and the rest females, I think.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

dwarfpike said:


> Breeders use 29 gallons for a confirmed pair ... but the pairing process takes place in a much larger tank. Angels don't seem to force pair very well. And a non pair will become one in a 29 rather quickly.


i would start with 6 little ones, i dont like force pairing for that exact reason...aggression.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

I think there is a fundamental issue here that's being missed. There is a difference between cichlids that form pair bonds and cichlids that are harem breeders.

My Laetacara are pair bonded cichlids. Even when not spawning, the pair will stick together and defend a territory, especially against other dwarf cichlids. The only thing I've witnessed that will break a pair is the death of one mate.

Apistogramma on the other hand are harem breeders. Typically a dominant male will patrol an area that has several females in, and each female guards a small territory centered on a breeding site. Females will even chase off non dominant males in some cases. It's not unusual once a pair of apsito's have spawned and the eggs have hatched for the female to drive off the male and raise the fry own it's own.

If gymnos are harem breeders, there are some fundematal reasons why they are kept in ratios of 1 male to 3 females or more in appropriate sized tanks. And these same reasons are why a pair won't co-exist in a smaller tank long term.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

> If gymnos are harem breeders, there are some fundematal reasons why they are kept in ratios of 1 male to 3 females or more in appropriate sized tanks. And these same reasons are why a pair won't co-exist in a smaller tank long term.


Some species are harem breeders like the Australis group and Gymnogenys and some are pair bond like the Rhabotus group. The once that are pair bond live in groups but can switch partner. The same for Bolivians. If a pair is formed and for whatever reason the female is gone the male will grief for a while but finally will look for a new female. He can even break up a pair for that and steal the female.



> Apistogramma on the other hand are harem breeders


 Not all of them. Some are pair bonding. For example my male Hongsloi does have two females but he only spawns with one of them and chases the second one all around the tank.


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