# Water changes... a myth, or necessity?



## newtotanks (Feb 24, 2010)

Im getting mixed reviews on this topic from several online sources. A friend of mine lost all his fish due to changing his water. Is it true that with a good filter i shouldnt have to change my water??... thanks in advance.


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## White Thunder (Jan 15, 2010)

youve got alot of reading to do


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## dg32 (Dec 24, 2009)

Anyone will tell you that water changes are absolutely necessary, no matter what filter you have. That being said, I have lost fish during a water change where the temp didn't fluctuate at all, pretty strange.


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## newtotanks (Feb 24, 2010)

thankyou for your help


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## barst00lprophet (Jan 24, 2010)

how would you control the nitrates without water changes?...


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## LSBoost (Jan 21, 2010)

Did you guys use water conditioner when changing the water? do 20-30% water change every week and you should be good.


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## Chris2500DK (Feb 15, 2006)

The real issue is waste management. The output from the filter is nitrates, if nothing is done the nitrate concentration will rise eventually poisoning the fish.

But the solution to nitrates can come in many forms. Water changes is one, it has the added benefit of reducing the concentration of everything (mainly phosphates) that can be a problem, but of course you need to make sure the water you're putting in doesn't contain chlorides or other harmful substances.

Plants and algae will use nitrates (and phosphates) when they grow, this reduces the concentration in the water and if you remove plant (or algae) matter as it grows you'll effectively have reduced your nitrates without doing a water change. This is used frequently in salt water tanks with a refuge growing caulerpa or chaetomorpha algae, it could even be used in fresh water with a dedicated sump growing hornwort or something similar.

The main issue is that your nutrient export (water changes, plants grown and removed) needs to match your nutrient import (food put into the tank, nitrates in your tap water), if it doesn't the nitrates will build up.

I've had a tank where I didn't do a water change for over a year because the plants were growing very rapidly and I harvested a lot of them each week and the overall bioload of the tank was small. It is possible.

It's just so much more effective to do water changes, especially in cichlid tanks where you often have a fairly large bioload.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

*mixed reviews on this topic from several online sources*

You can read a number of things, from a lot of places.
Ã¢â‚¬Å"EvidenceÃ¢â‚¬Â


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## Crackerballer (Mar 5, 2006)

KaiserSousay said:


> *mixed reviews on this topic from several online sources*
> 
> You can read a number of things, from a lot of places.
> Ã¢â‚¬Å"EvidenceÃ¢â‚¬Â


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## stouty109 (May 13, 2009)

The reason we do water changes is because the end result of keeping fish in a closed system with filtration is nitrate. Nitrate at high levels is toxic and at lower levels can still cause problems. Fish kept at a level above 100ppm will show signs of stress and will be less colorful, more succeptable to disease and live shorter lives. It is best to keep nitrates below 20ppm at all times. If my tanks get to 40 ppm then I am slacking or something is wrong which requires investigation. In a fully cycled aquarium containing fish nitrate is almost allways going to be present. The exception to this would be a very heavily planted aquarium with very few fish as the plants may take up the nitrate before it can elevate. There are also other reasons for water changes, such as buildup of hormones released into the water by fish, Discoloration of water, which can be caused by many factors, Replenishment of trace elements that are present in water and consumed by the miscellanious organisms present. Water Changes are basic husbandry for an aquarium, And I am not trying to lecture or sound like I am talking down to anyone but without changing water the fish will suffer.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

This isn't as simple as it sounds, and nitrates can't be the factor for poor water quality. Here's what I base my opinion on:

I personally know two long-time aquarists (over 40 years each) that don't do water changes on a regular basis. Both grow very large, extremely long-lived fish, and rarely have any disease problems. They even are able to keep and breed delicate species that I have had some difficulty with. Add to that all of their tanks are on the heavily stocked side of the spectrum. Each of them probably do 2-3 water changes per year....not per month. Neither tests their water once an aquarium is cycled.

One of the aquarists uses a dual canister filter setup and activated carbon, with bio-wheels on the outlet. He hooks up a gravel siphon and cleans the gravel two to three times a month. He also uses an air pump/ air stone for added circulation. He has the same filtration on all of his tanks, and all of them are about the same size. His lighting is typical of most aquarists. He unplugs his heaters in the summer time.

The other aquarist uses power filters and undergravel filter combinations in his tanks. He uses an battery powered gravel siphon now, but for a long time used a DIY type one. He cleans 1/2 the gravel every 2 weeks. He leaves his lights on 16 hours per day. He grows huge fish--even in some of his very small tanks. He monitors his temperature very closely---almost fanatically.

***Now that being said...I've tried each of those methods---neither worked well for me. I personally do weekly 1/3 water changes and feed very lightly. My fish are also long-lived and healthy. My point is not to discourage you from doing water changes. My point is that high nitrates can't be the cause of poor water quality...but it is definitely a good indicator. As pointed out by another forum member; it's more about waste control. If you don't have a lot of experience...regular partial water changes are one of the easiest things that we can do that almost always will benefit our fish.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

We used to breed Orandas. Very big ones. Look at them crooked and they get sick on you. Water changes every other day were mandatory. A chinese breeder I frequented gave me some duck weed and hornwort and had me start my first refugium. Basically a 50 G breeder tank and a trip to the LFS and bought a $10 handful of pond plants. Add this to what Mr. Chen started me off with and within two or three months I was able to go a month between WC's and then only due to guilt.

We do not raise Fancies any longer except for a dozen or so PearlScales we no longer keep goldies but I do have two fuges running on seperate tanks. I no longer use messy plants due to my lack of time and find the maintenance too frequent.

I have now set up a 40G breeder and after only two months it has established and I actually had to add fertilizer yesterday to get my trAtes up to 15 mg/l. Friday will be two weeks since my last WC and the nitrAte levels today are lower than after that WC. YMMV


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Fish can become acclimated to high levels of nitrate over time with no visual effects. But, there have been studies done to show that this does indeed have a detrimental effect on fish.

See Nitrate

And especially check out Nitrate Toxicity: A Potential Problem of Recirculating Systems

Keeping fish long term without water changes doesn't prove that high levels of nitrate isn't harmful, only that it doesn't necessarily kill them. The negative health effects are long term. It's kind of like living with a smoker.

So, are water changes necessary in order to keep fish alive long term? No, but they are beneficial to the long term health of the fish.


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

It is very rare that someone is able to maintain healthy fish without doing regular water changes or some remedy to dillute the pollutants in the water.
Most of the people that make these claims are either lucky or just havent reached the tipping point yet.
I tend to think of these fishes as surviving and not thriving.
We all know how resilient these animals can be but it doesn't make it right.

What is uncommon is that fish die from water changes.
I have never witnessed it and refuse to accept fresh/clean water to be the cause of death.
It is like breathing in polluted air as opposed to breathing in fresh and clean air.
There are many variables that could have caused the deaths: was water treated, was temperature consistent, were similar parameters maintained, how long was it before the last water change, were the fishes sick before.....

I use water changes to maintain the health and restore the health of all of my fish.
It is proven to work and just letting water quality continue to degrade without remedy is proven to cause illness/death.


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## tlspmm (Feb 1, 2009)

newtotanks said:


> Im getting mixed reviews on this topic from several online sources. A friend of mine lost all his fish due to changing his water. Is it true that with a good filter i shouldnt have to change my water??... thanks in advance.


There are alot of variables to your friends fish deaths. Water temp or high chlorinated water will do the trick. Never never never stray from water changes.Look at my tank..... see what water changes will do! :fish: :dancing:


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## Riceburner (Sep 3, 2008)

oldcatfish said:


> ..... He hooks up a gravel siphon and cleans the gravel two to three times a month....
> 
> ....He uses an battery powered gravel siphon now, but for a long time used a DIY type one. He cleans 1/2 the gravel every 2 weeks. .....


How do they do gravel vacs without removing water and replacing it?

I've tried to go 2 wks then 1.5 wks without WC....fish didn't seem to like any longer than 1.5 wks. so I do weekly 30-50% changes.


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## Cichlidude (Feb 7, 2010)

Riceburner said:


> How do they do gravel vacs without removing water and replacing it?/quote]
> 
> You simply pump it back into the same tank after it's filtered.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I'm with the rest on the need for water changes. When I hear fish died due to water changes, I assume there are other factors involved. Sometimes fish fall victim to such little things that we never notice. Ever splash on a little aftershave lotion and notice the thermometer setting a little crooked as you go out to work? All you know when you get home is the fish are dead. Spooky dumb things happen all the time. Good water killing fish??? Not very often.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Chris' post really sums up the issue beautifully IMHO. I can't think of anything to ad to it, but it's well worth reading twice, so there it is again :thumb:



Chris2500DK said:


> The real issue is waste management. The output from the filter is nitrates, if nothing is done the nitrate concentration will rise eventually poisoning the fish.
> 
> But the solution to nitrates can come in many forms. Water changes is one, it has the added benefit of reducing the concentration of everything (mainly phosphates) that can be a problem, but of course you need to make sure the water you're putting in doesn't contain chlorides or other harmful substances.
> 
> ...


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## zazz (Apr 5, 2008)

you can get away with murder as long as you do regular water changes.. the fish love it but for me it can be a pain .. but i am playing god and its the least i can do.


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## ssacrew (Nov 25, 2009)

As others have stated, there are ways to go about not having to do water changes frequently, and in some cases, none at all. However, these methods include adding refugiums or sumps to your systems, outlandish devices such as denitrification towers, or even some combination of them.

For many people, these options become more expensive, time consuming, and frustrating in comparison to doing simple water changes.

If water changes bother you, invest in what is called a Python. I do not own one currently, but I hear wonderful things about them from friends and people on this site.


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## Dj823cichild (Mar 30, 2009)

Water changes come with the responsibility of keeping fish. They must be done and if you don't have the time to do them then you shouldn't have fish period. :thumb:


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## grommeckdr (Jan 18, 2010)

ssacrew said:


> If water changes bother you, invest in what is called a Python. I do not own one currently, but I hear wonderful things about them from friends and people on this site.


Best invention ever, especially for larger tanks...


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

I started tinkering with refugiums not because I did not do WC's but rather to keep better conditions in the water collumn. Doing Bi-Weekly 50% WC's are not the problem but having a dozen or more tanks of varying sizes with more than a few over 75 gallons makes one start to tinker.

The stock I was keeping when I started to tinker were very succeptable to getting sick when the trAtes went over 20 mg/l so I needed to come up with a solution. I met a breeder who kept about 100 or so 50G breeders fully stocked using a bathtub of pond plants. This got me to thinking it can happen that a fully stocked tank can recycle naturally its pollutants and doing one weekly 10% or 25% WC would not break the bank.

I have gone thru a few designs, posted some online and got told it would not work (by those who never tried one) or told how god awful I was to my stock, and finally have a plan that works for me with two different tanks now. Fully colored haps and mbuna that breed like rabbits so profusely I am looking for a few species that will control the population naturally. Pretty sure my fish are happy but I am not able to say for sure what makes a fish smile.

I do WC's and find it necessary in my tanks due to dead spots and the need for my fish to arrange the sand bed. I have a 210G I set up on Jan 8 and the fuge is 15G of swords and wysteria and am using low light but mostly 24 hours a day, on occasion I will turn them off at night. No noticeable change in nitrAte until a week or so ago. It has been two weeks now since last WC and my nitrates are lower than when I did the WC. They went from 20 mg/l to 10 mg/l. I am going to go one more week and see what results I get but I think I am finished with this setup. I feel guilty leaving them go more than two weeks. YMMV


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## lestatak (Feb 3, 2007)

Dj823cichild said:


> Water changes come with the responsibility of keeping fish. They must be done and if you don't have the time to do them then you shouldn't have fish period. :thumb:


 :thumb:


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## LSBoost (Jan 21, 2010)

SO.... I've done some research this morning and I found out a way on how to remove nitrate naturally. It's call a *denitrator*. Basically you will need some PVC and fittings. Run a small tube in circular coil motion inside the pvc and fill it up with bio media. The purpose for the coil is to separate any oxygen. Nitrate removing bacteria don't like oxygen.

Run the water from your aquarium or from the outlet of your canister filter through the coil. Inlet will be on the top, outlet will be at the bottom where the water will have to travel up through the bio media and exit the denitrator through the top.

At first you will need to run only a drop of water per second through it but later on you can increase the flow. It take about 3 months or more for the bacteria to establish. Sounds like a nice project. I'm going to make one when I have some time. :lol: :dancing: opcorn:


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## LSBoost (Jan 21, 2010)

A deep sand substrate also reduces nitrate (2-5inches).


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## LSBoost (Jan 21, 2010)

http://www.3reef.com/forums/i-made/do-yourself-denitrator-49635.html <---*denitrator*


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Nitrate is an obvious waste products of your fish's metabolism. The nitrogen cycle by now is widely known, so people understand where it comes from. Also, it is produced in sufficient quantity that simple test sets can be made to determine how much of it is in the water. That's why everybody is talking about nitrate.

However, nitrate is just one example of a gazillion waste products your fish produce. Biological systems are infinitely complex, and some of those waste products might be produced in minute quantities and have never been researched. That doesn't mean they can't be harmful if you let them built up. By doing a simple water change, you get rid of all of those waste products, and you replenish essential trace elements at the same time. It's like hitting a big reset button to bring your system back to standard parameters. Water changes are such a simple and elegant solution to a seemingly insurmountable problem that I marvel at the concept every time I do one!

A denitrator is interesting to look at as a concept, and might be a fun project to built, but it will never do more than remove nitrate. If you want to to built something to relieve you from the burden of doing water changes, I suggest an automatic water change system might be a better option!


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## LSBoost (Jan 21, 2010)

The denitrator will keep the nitrate stable. Water changes especially if you never change water and do the 50%+ ones, it can reduce nitrate in a steep cliff. The fish may not get used to this and be in shock. That's why its better to do more frequent water changes.


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## SATIRO (Feb 24, 2010)

You need to flush the toillet!


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## Tom S (Dec 28, 2009)

I don't know about you, but I don't grow plants in my toilet. I tried, but they kept getting flushed away.

It keeps coming up that nitrates are a big reason for water changes. But, plants should be able to take care of some of that. That leaves the other residual chemicals that could build up over time. Could these chemicals not be removed using carbon? Or perhaps more research is needed before a method could be developed.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

> Could these chemicals not be removed using carbon?


i think carbon will remove a lot of things, but I guess you need to change the carbon like once a week for it to remain effective - water changes are cheaper.


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## SATIRO (Feb 24, 2010)

I don't know about you, but I don't grow plants in my toilet. I tried, but they kept getting flushed away
Funny


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Nitrates can't be as harmful as most aquarists think....the 2 aquarists that I used as examples don't keep live plants, don't use a "denitrator," and don't do water changes more than a few times a year. And their fish don't just survive, they absolutely thrive....grow huge, live long disease free lives, and spawn regularly. And they are able to add new fish easily----I've traded fish to both of them that were just doing "ok" in my tanks (and I was doing twice weekly 40 percent changes at the time), and then the fish just absolutely thrive in their tanks. Neither aquarist checked their water conditions, so I'm not sure what their nitrate levels were....but they had to be pretty high. 
As for scientific tests showing how harmful nitrates are....there may be other factors that aren't being measured.

What does all of this mean to aquarists? I totally agree with the member that stated that it's all about waste management. Whether through filtration or water changes, you have to remove the waste.

Should you do water changes? Well despite my arguments here, I am a firm believer in water changes----they are the easiest, most predictable form of waste management. You can even get away without any filtration---as long as the water is being circulated, and you perform enough water changes.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Tom S said:


> Could these chemicals not be removed using carbon?


No. Carbon is great for removing organic compounds like excess medication and tannins from wood. A lot of the fishes' waste products will be inorganic in nature, and carbon will not remove them.

_[I am using the term 'organic' here in the chemist's sense of the word as meaning hydrocarbons and their derivatives, not as it's widely used in marketing these days meaning 'healthy'.] _

As others have pointed out, people might find many ways to avoid changing water in the fish tanks in the future, but it's hard to imagine how they could be even simpler than just changing water!



LSBoost said:


> The denitrator will keep the nitrate stable. Water changes especially if you never change water and do the 50%+ ones, it can reduce nitrate in a steep cliff. The fish may not get used to this and be in shock. That's why its better to do more frequent water changes.


I've been keeping fish for over 30 years, and I have never seen a fish go into shock because of reduced nitrate. That being said, I am all for keeping all water parameters stable - not just nitrate. The automatic water change system I suggested does exactly that.

This site is about the free exchange of information, and it seems the information on this subject has been exchanged. CF is also about providing newcomers to the cichlid hobby with first class information on how to best look after their fish. Before this thread keeps going round and round in circles, let me close it with the words:

If you have come here searching for information how to provide your fish with the best possible living conditions, don't look for ways to avoid water changes. Look for ways to make water changes easier for you, so you can do them regularly and consistently!


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