# Fish Breeding/Inbreading



## cosmic665 (Oct 4, 2007)

When a person goes to a LFS and gets about 4-7 convicts to form a pair, can we assume that the fish where most likely from the same spawn? Especially If they look similar for the most part? If this is the case, then I would assume that inbreeding would take place if a pair formed. I've googled the net with "convict inbreeding" and some sites report that fish like convicts can be inbreed 2-4 generations before physical deformities are evident. So my question is if inbreeding or paring off is really a bad idea? 
Over 6 months ago I purchased a pair of jewel cichlids from a pet store that where getting ready to spawn in the store. They spawned in my 15gallon Hex tank several days after I bought them and the mother died. Shortly after I removed the father and I raised up the fry. 6 of the fry survived. Now I wake up this morning and I see a pair has formed from the 6 jewel cichlids defending fry! I have a 35gallon hex with 3/4 to half inch baby convict fry from my breeding pair along with a 55 gallon consisting of several dozen convict fry. Would it be a bad Idea for them to pair off at this point? 
I was also told that fish should only breed when they are at maximum size. The reason being is that if they spawn too young that the fish will remain dwarfed at the maximum size their parents spawned them. Is this true or a bunch of BS?

Thanks
-Cosmic


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## cosmic665 (Oct 4, 2007)

Okay guys....

25 people have looked at this post so far and no one has anything to say about it? Is my question really that stupid? Please PM me if you don't want to post something publicly. I really want to know... I can handle the truth!


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## hyposalinity (Apr 30, 2008)

How many Cons or even Jewels in the wild do you think in-breed or line-breed with each other? Probably happens all of the time. Dogs, Cats, even people do it. Is it wrong, yes, it has been proven to produce defects. Can you do anything to stop it, maybe. Who's to say if you buy two cichlids from different pet stores you are still not getting a pair from the same batch? Depending on how religeous you are and if you believe Adam and Eve were the 1st humans to walk the Earth made by GOD him/herself, kind of proves all of us are related and the result of in-breeding and line-breeding. Even if Adam and Eve only got it on with each other, all those children had to be doing it with their siblings to further the human race, maybe even with their mom and pop. Talk about incest at its best, or worst, however you want to look at it.


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## cosmic665 (Oct 4, 2007)

Cool...

I didn't think the inbreeding thing was an issue, but a LFS owner told me that breeding fish when they are really small causes the fish to stay permanently dwarfed. I don't believe this is true, but I wanted to hear what other people had to say about this.

Thanks
-Cosmic665


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

It is common for breeders to breed parents to offspring,brothers tp sisters and granparent to grandkids to produce better quality colors or sizes. I don't think it is an issue untill you get a few generations down the line.I believe Mr. firemouth said he changes males every 7 generations and was told not to to achieve his albino morph he is looking for.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

I feel it is an unwise assumption for us to think inbreeding does not compromise the fish it producesâ€¦

Science has proven that inbreeding causes problemsâ€¦ if one parent is prone to a genetic weaknessâ€¦ and two of that parentâ€™s offspring were to inbreedâ€¦ their offspring (grandchild of original parent) would have a compounded genetic weaknessâ€¦

Just because an inbred pair do not produce ugly deformed offspring does not mean they are not compromised. There is a lot more to a fish than how pretty it is 

Enjoy your fish and if breeding them makes you happy thatâ€™s fineâ€¦ but unless you are carefully breeding strong fish please do not put such offspring into the aquarium tradeâ€¦

It is very well known throughout the hobby that wild caught fish are stronger than aquarium strains. Why? Because we have failed to use only the strongest to breed and we have inbred these weaker fish to excessâ€¦ in simpler termsâ€¦ we buy a group of six random quality siblings to make our â€œbreeding pairsâ€


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

While I agree it does have some effect ... the immediate effect of brother/sister or mother/son ect is not as high in fish as it is in mammals. In fact several species in the brichardi complex with their colony style breeding, a brother or sister will often take the place of the mother or father that gets eaten. These fish have been doing this for thousands of years.

That being said, fish that are sexually dimorphic, I do try to get the males from one LFS that uses one wholesaler, and the other sex from a differant lfs that doesn't use that wholesaler, but a differant competing one. Usually you have to be on good terms with said LFS though to get that kind of info.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

So you are assuming minimal effects of inbreeding Central American Convicts (solitary breeders) based on the proven fact that there are Colony breeding Cichlids in Africa that occasionally inbreed naturallyâ€¦ I jut donâ€™t see the correlationâ€¦

But to keep the focus on the parts we agree onâ€¦ We seem to agree that excessive inbreeding is a bad thingâ€¦ yet we may define excessive differentlyâ€¦

The rational behind my thought is if we make a pair whose offspring are weaker than the parents areâ€¦ we are screwing upâ€¦ even if itâ€™s just a little bitâ€¦ Because if you weaken them just a little bitâ€¦ and so does the next guyâ€¦ and so does the next guyâ€¦ quality is destroyedâ€¦

â€¦and it all comes down to each individual being responsibleâ€¦ and NOT expecting the next guy to make up for their irresponsibility

Itâ€™s not too hard to get an unrelated pair. I know what wholesaler most of my local fish stores useâ€¦ I donâ€™t think many stores would see this as private information, and your suggested method of obtaining an unrelated pair is very simple and quite effectiveâ€¦

I am NOT saying that every breeder who uses a level of inbreeding is being irresponsible or is bad for the aquarium trade. I am saying that inbreeding randomly without a strong understanding of the direct results to the species of fish you are working with is irresponsible and should be avoided, unless you are able to ensure that the offspring are not released to others.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

oh no, my example is extreme and not meant to justify it in completely differant centrals ... rather to show that it takes many more generations of inbreeding in fish, not a single inbreeding to get the really bad results ... compared to mammals which are used as an example of inbreeding being bad.

I do agree that we should avoid inbreeding ... take discus ... lots of inbreeding to produce lots of interesting color forms ... but many people that keep wild discus wonder why cultured discus seem so hard to keep in terms of diseases and such. The EBJD is another example. But hopefully those line breeding for color forms are being carefull and introducing non related wilds back into the strain at times. At least we can hope.

Especially with fish that have been most likely overly inbred already like convicts. Easily sexed, very easy to get to the LFS and get 3 females and go get 3 males from say petsmart ...


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