# A weird hybrid w/pics



## BioG

Been raising these out of freakish curiousity in one of my growout tanks. found just the two of them in a brood of White Calvus. I only noticed them because they had eaten all but one of their half bros. and sisters, probably due to the fact that they were 3-4 times larger at the same age. In their parent tank their was a group of WC White Calvus (1m/4fm) and one lone N. Buescheri Kachese (I think Kachese? Because the horizontal lines) thus I deduced that these are 50/50 Buescheri Calvus.

I admit I don't like Hybrids for whatever reason, but this mixed seemed so hard to come by that I had to grow them out just to see what they were gonna look like. So far they are about an inch + but they're easily twice as big as their one sibling. Their lone sibling is till about a half inch in a fry tank. These guys have been living in growout with Zambian Blacks that are 1 year old and they are a bit bigger overall. Yet they'r only 4 months!

Just thought they look trippy. they seem to e friendly and different in size so I'm guessing, m/f, not that it matters. If I bred them, if they're even fertile, it'd be as a science experiment only. Not distributing hybrids here!

Anyway here they are.


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## BioG

here's mom and dad.









and dad


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## Kerricko

it will be interesting to see what they look like as they mature.


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## juliocromus

thats so weird ......and cool


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## Fogelhund

buescheri seem like they'll hybridize quite easily when they don't have the correct mate available. I have buescheri x nigriventris fry.


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## BioG

Fogelhund said:


> buescheri seem like they'll hybridize quite easily when they don't have the correct mate available. I have buescheri x nigriventris fry.


Yeah that's weird because I have had a heck of a time pairing that particular male buescheri to a mate. It took him 6 females before he found lucky #7. He killed 2 of the others before I could get to them! He then had 2 small broods, 5-6 fry each, when he promptly killed #7. I'm tired of blowing cash so''s he can kill females so he just hangs out solo with the Black Calvus group now. '

Interstingly enough though he follows the male Zambian Black around as if they were mated, He stays so close to his side that the Calvus bites him from time to time out of what seems like annoyance for the unwanted company!


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## @nt!x

crazy looking!


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## PepoLD

now that's a weird mix haha  keep updating us!


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## mel_cp6

how about an update.
i kind of like those even though they're hybrid.


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## jchild40

opcorn:


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## 24Tropheus

Altolamprologus calvus "White Chaitika" one of my fav fish on my wish list and not easily available in the UK. N. buescheri Kachese another nice fish. The mix looks like a frogs abortion to me. :lol: Not one thing or another. Freakish for sure. Hope not to see these with the other rubbish in my LFS. :wink:


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## Fogelhund

Kind of funny how much these look like Neolamprologus ventralis.


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## Furcifer158

Fogelhund said:


> Kind of funny how much these look like Neolamprologus ventralis.


Thats what I thought


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## BioG

I'll post new pics. they look a bit different still.

Hey 24, I'll only breed them once and, per your request, I'll send them to Sawbridgeworth as soon as they're ready! :lol:

I won't breed them at all. I know it's a no-no keeping them but I don't have the stomach to just cull fish, even when I should. That's how I got all my tanks, every time they breed I gotta raise them! :roll:


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## 24Tropheus

BioG said:


> I'll post new pics. they look a bit different still.
> 
> Hey 24, I'll only breed them once and, per your request, I'll send them to Sawbridgeworth as soon as they're ready! :lol:
> 
> I won't breed them at all. I know it's a no-no keeping them but I don't have the stomach to just cull fish, even when I should. That's how I got all my tanks, every time they breed I gotta raise them! :roll:


I'll have the Clove Oil and Vodka ready. :wink:

Seriously if you have not the heart to do the nessarcery, whats to stop em breeding and giving you an even larger problem?


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## Furcifer158

24Tropheus said:


> BioG said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll post new pics. they look a bit different still.
> 
> Hey 24, I'll only breed them once and, per your request, I'll send them to Sawbridgeworth as soon as they're ready! :lol:
> 
> I won't breed them at all. I know it's a no-no keeping them but I don't have the stomach to just cull fish, even when I should. That's how I got all my tanks, every time they breed I gotta raise them! :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll have the Clove Oil and Vodka ready. :wink:
> 
> Seriously if you have not the heart to do the nessarcery, whats to stop em breeding and giving you an even larger problem?
Click to expand...

I hate culling as well, but I learned to just put them in a plastic bag and place them in the freezer. I thinks its the most human way too kill a fish.


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## mel_cp6

send them to me.  
i wont have a problem culling their ****.
i got used to culling sick and inferior baby fronts when i had to because 30+ were
sick and was infecting the whole tank.

just dont do it yet. they look cool.
but feel free to cull their offsprings if they reproduce.


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## BioG

It's not that I can't cull. It's that I don't like doing it manually. If they reproduce I'll just leave the kids in their folk's tank. There's a leleupi in their too so I don't think they'll last long. That's what I finally had to do with my Calvus, I just got way too many.


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## Jamey

I'll take em! I think they're cool as all getout! yah yah yah, don't crossbreed, keep the strains straight... so long as you aren't hurting anyone selling them as something they're not, you're not doing anything wrong man... cheers!


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## Mr Mbuna

I saw some brichardi/Dickfeldi crosses the other day. They weren''t pretty. Strange how different genuses can interbreed; makes you realise how easy (and quickly) new species/varieties could arise in the lake over time.


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## triscuit

I split this thread so we could get back on topic. 

I think new pics were promised? opcorn:


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## BioG

here's updated pics, sorry took so long.

I assume this one is a female as "she" is smaller 








They play well together no aggression to speak of, they hate other fish though








here's the so called male


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## BioG

from the side they resemble Calvus the most but if you could see them head on you would notice they're much thicker bodied than an alto and their mouthes are broader which gives them kind of a pit bull look. I was kind of hop[ing they would inherit the lyre tail and fins from the buescheri side but nothin yet.


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## Manoah Marton




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## mel_cp6

they look awesome, if you ask me.
are they aggresive or do they behave more like altos?
luv the last pic btw.

how big are they now?


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## PGA material

If I were you I would keep them! They truly look awesome!! You are not hurting anything as long as they dont leave your fishroom!


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## BioG

It's fun to have something no one else has (even if it is a pair of frankenfish!) so I will be keeping them to see how big, etc.

They're behavior is more, if not exactly like a Buescheri in that they are reclusive and a bit aggressive to everything same size or smaller.


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## Frazee86

found this so bumping and asking for pictures if there still kickn :thumb:


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## shellies215

Haha, altolamp calvuscheri. More pics please


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## TMB60

> Haha, altolamp calvuscheri. More pics please


Can you say Cockapoo, Labradoodle, Malti-poo? To some the are mutts (hybrids), to others they are "designer breeds".

Is your "altolamp calvuscheri any different when you stop to think about it? I think they look cool and definitely unique. I would keep them for sure, but at the same time try not to produce any more.

Tom


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## shellies215

Well, it's not really the same. I'm pretty sure a dog is a dog, they are all the same species, bred for different characteristics. With hybrid fish you are actually crossing two different species, most times with unpredictable results. Many times, a cross like these calvuscheri are sterile, it's natures way of assuring it doesn't happen again.


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## Number6

shellies215 said:


> Well, it's not really the same. I'm pretty sure a dog is a dog, they are all the same species, bred for different characteristics. With hybrid fish you are actually crossing two different species, most times with unpredictable results. Many times, a cross like these calvuscheri are sterile, it's natures way of assuring it doesn't happen again.


Shellies215, this isnt correct.

A dog breed crossed with a dog breed is a crossbreed/ hybrid within the species. It is considered "less" of a hybridization because one can think of all dogs as being a single gene pool. I won't even balk at someone who says it's not a 'true' hybrid.

The hybridization events we cringe at for our hobby doesn't care about species boundaries. A hybrid of two distinct variants is essentially the same. Hybridization is the blending of what was/is 2 distinct gene pools.

Whether a hybridization event results in sterile offspring or not has nothing at all to do with what is "right" and nature could really care less about any man made constructs like 'species'. Hybridization events are completely 'natural' when they happen int he wild and what happens next has more in common with fluid dynamics than what you allude to. Hybrid sterility is more like a software bug after two distinct 'programs' were merged than anything else.

As Biog says... a hybrid is a fun oddity... a result of us forcing some unnatural conditions on our pets... nothing more.

:thumb:


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## triscuit

Number6 said:


> Shellies215, this isnt correct....


Well, I think you just reiterated Shellie's point. In this case we are talking about intergeneric hybrids- not only are the parent fish not from the same species, they are not even in the same genus.

Dogs are all _Canis lupus familiaris_- all belong to the same subspecies and mixes are rarely (if ever) called hybrids.

BioG- interesting fish, any picture updates?


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## shellies215

I should have just kept my mouth shut, now it seems I've hijacked a truckload of cichlids and crashed it into a puppy farm =D>


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## TMB60

> I should have just kept my mouth shut, now it seems I've hijacked a truckload of cichlids and crashed it into a puppy farm


Nonsense Shellies, it would be less of a discussion if you kept your mouth shut 

I don't think too many of us hobbyists advocate the crossbreeding/hybridizing of fish, nor do I think BioG intended it. So with all the science and nature explanations aside for a minute, I think of it as an isolated incident which BioG is making the best of. He has no plans for this to spread beyond the confines of his own tanks, and in the end, it's not something that's going to throw the earth out of orbit. I'm good with that :thumb:

Tom


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## Number6

Triscuit, TMB60 made a point that this new crossing could be viewed as a new designer breed.
Shellies disagreed with the arguements that hybrid crosses are unlike a crossbreeding of dog breeds and made references to things that just aren't true as justification.



triscuit said:


> In this case we are talking about intergeneric hybrids- not only are the parent fish not from the same species, they are not even in the same genus.


man made constructs are irrelevant to the conversation... they really are. One could make the assumption that if mankind labelled the fish with a completely different Genus and Species label that they are unrelated (genetically) and would have errors in a cross like sterility, but none of that is accurate as you well know. These are all very young genus/species/variants in these lakes and their genetic code is usually still pretty darn compatible.

Whether it is what we want to admit or not, TMB60 isn't far off from being right... I view this crossing as a simple oddity, but another might have done exactly what TMB60 suggests... view it as a start of a new "designer" breed like a dragonfish, etc. I'd hate to see Tanganyikans go the route of Malawi cichlids, but it'll happen sooner or later!


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## 24Tropheus

I understand that there are 12 tribes proposed for the cichlid fish fauna of Lake Tanganyika. 
And at least seven old, ancestral lineages have contributed to the present cichlid fauna of the lake.
Lake Tanganyika, the oldest of the rift-valley lakes, can be recognized as an evolutionary reservoir of major lineages of cichlids in East Africa.
Crosses within these 12 tribes should I guess be expected in tanks.
Crosses outside these 12 tribes but not outside the seven old ancestral lineages would be next easiest.
Crosses outside these I dare say could be arranged but think it might take more work IE stripping the females and males and fertilising artificially.

Yep I do hope we do not go down this route.
Tropheus are the first to be worked on I think.
Very popular pricey and often kept for colour so an easy target.

Saving grace maybe us.
Many Tang cichlid keepers and breeders keep them for their natural unusual forms, behaviour both feeding and breeding strategies. So less interest in weird man made hybrids I hope.

I do not think any cichlid keeping or breeding has any conservation value though.
Who has ever heard of a positive reintroduction of cichlids to anywhere?
Though if wild cichlids are viewed as a resource worth protecting by the locals then I guess in that way it could be. But then that would make all breeders on the wrong side of conservation. 

All the best James


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## BioG

I'll take some soon. The smaller one got itself stuck in a rock, I was able to yank her out, but not without hurting her pretty bad I think. I propped her up with yet another rock (Does that help them to breath? I always just thought an upside down fish is a dead fish?) and she's still breathing etc...

Anyway, Obviously, She looks like **** so I'll not get pics of her for a bit (If she pulls through- I sdon't know why I care, they just seem like my very own freankenpair :lol: ).

But, the bigger one is HUGE! 3+ inches at just over 1 year old! I'll snap some of him tomorrow.


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## Lestango

I have been following this with interest. First, BioG I find the fish rather interesting, good looking for young fish, and am looking forward to future photos of their development.

Regarding the ethics related to hybridization I remind everyone that ethics reflect human emotion and are the opinions derived from them. Regarding how we deal with the amazing native speciation of cichlids in L. Tanganyika, our ethics can lean in two directions; one preservationistic and the other adventuristic.The preservationistic says "don't mess with the naturally occuring species from the lake." The adventuristic says "let's put 2+3=? together and see what emerges."

Who can say either is right or wrong, since such hybridization in the lake itself occurs all the time. It is how many of what we consider to be over 300 species came to be in the first place and the evolutionary process of speciation is still going on. If the new hybrids are iquiped to survive better than existing groups the new group will be the survivors. Who can say genetic duplicates of BioG's fish don't already exist in L. Tanganyika. My bet is that with the millions of fish in the lake capable of crossbreeding they do. It has been so long since studying "The Theory of Probability" in college I can't eventake a stab at it. Maybe some of our younger college math or engineering majors out there can run some figures for us.


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## Lestango

Incidently BioG, and I think this follows the thread, my Chalinochromis ndobhoi are less than a year old and are over 4 1/2 inches long. They are very fast growers and are both the youngest and biggest of the tangs in my 55g growout tank. I have from the first time I had seen them wondered if they were a naturally occuring hybrid from the lake. Are they Chalinochromis sp. "ndobhoi" or Chalinochromis ndobhoi?


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## 24Tropheus

Lestango said:


> The adventuristic says "let's put 2+3=? together and see what emerges."
> 
> Who can say either is right or wrong, since such hybridization in the lake itself occurs all the time.


I can. :thumb:

If its a natural cross then its a natural cross and a new spiecies after a few hundred years of breeding true.
If its a man made thing, then it is a man made thing.
Unless you can prove it exists in the lake. Even then its not the same as it was created in a artificial environment.

You can not get simpler than that. 

All the best James


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## Razzo

Very cool! I need to subscribe to this thread so I can see the updated pics as they grow opcorn:

Russ


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## Lestango

If you, James, were diving an area not heavily fished for species discovery before, such as many spots along the Congo coast, and come up with what appears to be a non-described type, how can you show it has reproduced true or not for a couple hundred years or more in the lake? Where lies the burden of proof? Would you not consider it might truly be a not yet described species? So, then finding it is a non-described species, do you have to preserve it for a hundred years in formalin and then go fishing again hoping to find it?

By that standard we would find few collectors fishing in the lake on our behalf.

This is getting a little far away from the thread, isn't it? Or is it? :zz:

BioG - help me out :-?


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## Number6

*Lestango*
new species cannot be described as easily as "finding something new" in the wild. Wild hybrids happen and are generally disregarded as flukes. Ironically, the existance of many wild hybrids can erase a previously described 'species' as often as it becomes a new 'species'.

Go figure...


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## 24Tropheus

Lestango said:


> If you, James, were diving an area not heavily fished for species discovery before, such as many spots along the Congo coast, and come up with what appears to be a non-described type, how can you show it has reproduced true or not for a couple hundred years or more in the lake? Where lies the burden of proof? Would you not consider it might truly be a not yet described species? So, then finding it is a non-described species, do you have to preserve it for a hundred years in formalin and then go fishing again hoping to find it?
> 
> By that standard we would find few collectors fishing in the lake on our behalf.
> 
> This is getting a little far away from the thread, isn't it? Or is it? :zz:
> 
> BioG - help me out :-?


It is a fare point. Answered very well by Number6.
I will add..........
True not all fish imported from the lake will be a recognised described species but then for me that's half the fun. Yep some do I think turn out to be new hybrids and thus I would not spread em.But to be honest I have not come across one yet. Others turn out to be species new to the hobby. I hear Tropheus sp. "Red belly" turned out to be a newish natural hybrid (jury is still out on how long it has been about and if it breeds true I think). Luckily I hated the look of them and did not get any.
On average think if you want to avoid recent hybrids then WC is a better bet than most breeder sources (Inc I am sorry to say fishes of Burundi) Again not speaking from personal experience the fish I have had through them bred by them have been great in the past. Just I hear some more recent stuff has lost its accurate variant label and could be variant crossed.

All the best James
PS This is my way (after years of keeping and breeding others bred stuff. I now have the cash to get and enjoy what I want to enjoy) For sure not trying to tell folk it is the only way of enjoying cichlids.


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## tirzo13

A importer on the lake has crossed Tropheus CP's for color, but for the most part it does not happen as much with Tanganyika fish vs. Malawi cichlids.
I'm sure someone has tried to get red or yellow into Frontosa by using Petro's or Tropheus.

Once that does happen, True Red or Yellow Colored frontosa will sell just as well if not better than OB peacocks.

For the most part however there is zero interest in Tanganyika hybrids because outside of Tropheus there is no color that would interest the general fish keeper. 
Most Tang fans like the interesting breeding behaviour or shapes, but these things won't sell to the Petco crowd, and that is where there is money.

Color sells, Malawi has that in abundance so you can create OB peacocks, Dragon Blood Peacocks etc, fish that are easily moved.
Can't really do that with our Tanganyika choices.


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## giantkeeper

in for pictures

opcorn:


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## TMB60

> For the most part however there is zero interest in Tanganyika hybrids because outside of Tropheus there is no color that would interest the general fish keeper.
> Most Tang fans like the interesting breeding behaviour or shapes, but these things won't sell to the Petco crowd, and that is where there is money.


Amen to that! However if Tang hybrids did become available, the forces of supply and demand would kick in like they do for anything else on the market. I would think, and hope, that the demand would be near non-existent. Then it would only be a short term problem at best.


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## BioG

The smaller one died sometime during the night.  Now I just have what I'm calling "The last Unicorn" :lol:

Don't know what I'll do with him, for some reason I found them more interesting as a couple. This is the first time I've ever lost a fish from getting itself stuck in a hole in a rock, Maybe hybrids are too dumb to survive? :roll: 
Anyway here he? is.


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## BioG

If you look behind him to the left you can see what I think was his sister dead. Am about to clean that tank so I'll get her out soon. For a size reference that conche is approx 5 inches from top to bottom. He;s starting to remind me of a goofy looking tetracanthus.

The blue hue you see on the bottom and caudal finnage is actually present on all fins, the flash kinda absorbed some of it. Also the yellow green, usually seen on a Calvus head and face is more defined like a yellow-green mohawk down his body, and only if you're looking up at him can you see that his sides are purple!

Still I don't find him particularly stunning and his crooked spots remind me that he's a mutt! :lol: Of course all, most, young Calvus have crooked spots. The spots on a Calvus line up as they age and generally appear in sraight lines right around sexual maturity.

I was really hoping to keep the other one alive so I could get them to breed... Don't worry, I wasn't planning on keeping any fry but I was just so curious as to wether these were sterile or not.

For now, he's the "Ugly Duckling" with little hope of ever becoming a swan! :lol:

Just for newcomers to the thread:
Here's Dad








And Mom (Mom Was The Biggest and Oldest Calvus I ever had at 4.5 inches and 16 years


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## Fogelhund

BioG said:


> He;s starting to remind me of a goofy looking tetracanthus.


Or Neolamprologus ventralis.


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## mike1234

I'm extremely jealous of dad... I'd love some of those. And I personally like the look of this fish. Does it have the shine to the spots in person, or Is that the. Flash?


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## eeztropheus

Is mom no longer living?


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## BioG

In this case the flash actually dulled the fish out a bit, he's a little more brilliant. Dad is quite a nice fish and, unfortunately, "mom" is dead.


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## jordanroda

If I didnt see it?
I wouldnt of believed it.
Its like a Arowana mating with a Oscar :lol:


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## eeztropheus

BioG said:


> In this case the flash actually dulled the fish out a bit, he's a little more brilliant. Dad is quite a nice fish and, unfortunately, "mom" is dead.


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## BioG

Exactly. Perhaps The, should've been, dad became insanely jealous because he (By he I mean the male White Calvus in my avatar and the rightful sire of all my White calvus babies) harassed her relentlessly until she ejected herself out of the tank from the only gap in the top possible!

She was pretty crispy by the time I found her, RIP. :?


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