# First dive into a sump



## JBMagi (Nov 9, 2010)

So I have been doing a lot of reading about sumps fuges and wet/dry filtration lately. I will most likely end up creating a set up that has all three. However just to get my feet wet I was thinking about making a simple wet/dry tower in a sump.
The plan is to use a rubermade container as the sump. I then would set up a wet dry tower from a modified five gallon bucket and some scrubbies. 
This has two goals. One i would like to get some sump experience under my belt before I dive into something more major and complex. And two this would aid in filtration and increase the amount of water taking the bioload from my cichlids. 
Any suggestions or comments before I dive into this project?


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## Guams (Aug 21, 2009)

JBMagi said:


> However just to get my feet wet


My first suggestion is to keep your feet dry. :lol:

On to more serious suggestions. It sounds like you've already got a good plan going for you. Your first concern would probably be how you're going to get water into the sump and then back into the display tank.

Figure out how big you want your turnover rate to be, then figure out an overflow that would match your desired turnover rate. Once you've got your overflow figured out, figure out what you want for a return pump. If you oversize your return pump (which might be a good idea in your case - since you mention this as only an experiencing-gathering setup) you can redirect some of the flow from the pump back into the sump by way of PVC Tee and gate valve.

Once you've got however much experience you want with this setup, you could recycle your pump into a new setup and see if you can't ramp up your turnover rate.

This is all similar to what I just did. I started with a simple wet/dry tower (I used Sterilite drawers instead of buckets). I had a HOB skimmerless overflow and a Pondmaster 9.5 (950GPH @ 0' Head). I recently had a tank drilled and put an internal overflow in. Now I can run my pump without redirecting any back into the sump. I, of course, used my first set-up to learn more about how they worked and figure out the advantages over some other types of filtration.

My other suggestion: Ask questions. Before you put everything together, make a new thread and ask how others think it will work. You might learn a few new things and, without having it running yet, be able to make adjustments.

Good luck.

PS: After getting this tank drilled, I HIGHLY recommend it over HOB-style/PVC overflows. If that's an option for you, I would seriously consider it.


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## JBMagi (Nov 9, 2010)

For the overflow I plan to use one of the double U DIY PVC set ups. I have seen them around and the theory on them maintaining siphon in the event of the power outage sound to me like it will work. If not then I will get my feet wet :lol: Pun right back at you sir.
Thank you for the idea of having spilling excess water back into the sump via the tee and ball valve. I was thinking about how to match the volume in and out, but was just going to wing it. 
Also I would love to drill the tank but dont want to disturb everyone. I anticipate all will go well with the sump trials and I wil end up drilling my next few tanks.


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## JBMagi (Nov 9, 2010)

Also I am hoping that this will handle filtration down the line. For now I plan on keeping the HOB's hanging on the back. Does a sump/wetdry/fuge work well a the only filtration for an overstocked tank if sized big enough?


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## Guams (Aug 21, 2009)

Yep, it should... so long as any increases to the bioload are gradual, just as with any other filtration system.

I never tried the PVC overflows, so I can't really comment on them. But, the main reason I stayed away from them was the way they look.


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## Malawi_Junkie (Nov 26, 2009)

The PVC overflows do work but they are bulky and quite loud. Overflow box's aren't that expensive or you could easily make your own.



> I was thinking about how to match the volume in and out, but was just going to wing it.


As long as your overflow can handle the return flow rate your pump will determine the volume in and out. I use two 1" drain pipes and two 3/4" returns with a Mag 12 pump, flow rate is roughly 1000gph.


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## JBMagi (Nov 9, 2010)

My concern with the overflow box was the loss of the siphon during a power outage. Also I am going to try modifying the overflow pipe designs to make it more compact, a little better looking and quieter.


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## Malawi_Junkie (Nov 26, 2009)

If overflow box is designed correctly you wouldn't loose siphon in an outage.


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## JBMagi (Nov 9, 2010)

Great. I will look into that. I might start with the PVC then upgrade since I already have a bunch of scrap pipe and am good at plumbing. I definitely like the overflow box better and will upgrade down the line.


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## paradigmsk8er (Apr 13, 2009)

as far as the biological capabilites of a sump that size...

mine is similar sized, 23 gallon industrial rubbermaid, 5 gallon bucket for the wet dry tower...a total of about 10-12 gallons in the sump at any one time plus the trickle in the wet dry. I have three stages: polyfil mech in a top tray, then the wet dry portion is a trickle through pot scrubbies and then submerged below the exit is loofas. On my 100 gallon with 14 fish initially the thing didn't even flinch. It has quite the capacity. though I will admit when I get back from deployment I will work on refining the mechanical portion to trap some of the smaller stuff. As of right now it keeps the water crystal clear and all my levels at almost zero.

I also had room for the UV sterilizer, submerged return pump and two heaters in there. I get plenty of aeration. The trick is getting good circulation inside the main tank to ensure you are pickign stuff up in the overflows..and then balancing the drain/return..that is the hardest part and takes a bit of trial and error.

A DIY sump can be quite quite capable.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

JBMagi said:


> My concern with the overflow box was the loss of the siphon during a power outage. Also I am going to try modifying the overflow pipe designs to make it more compact, a little better looking and quieter.


http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... p?t=311243
Here is a design I thought pretty interesting.
You said you were comfortable working with pipe, so thought this might interest you.

If you look in the library, bulldogg has a skimmerless overflow that worked quite well for me.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_skimmerless_overflow.php

One addition to any "U" tube system, where losing siphon is a concern(warranted or not) is the addition of a fitting to the Ã¢â‚¬Å"UÃ¢â‚¬Â


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## JBMagi (Nov 9, 2010)

I have been looking at the sterilite drawers. I think I might go with that instead of the bucket. I like how easy it is to clean or adjust the media. I am thinking I will use a 40 gallon container with the tallest sterilite drawer I can fit with the lid.
Any suggestions on pumps?
Also is there anything wrong with oversizing the overflow?


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## Guams (Aug 21, 2009)

There's nothing wrong with oversizing the overflow. In fact, the larger it is, the more water you can get through it. According to what I've read, bigger is quieter as well... as the water will tend to flow down the sides of the pipe, rather than free-fall inside the pipe. The free-fall and air/water turbulence is what causes the noise.

I used bulldog's skimmerless overflow in my first setup. My drain pipe was straight up and down. I never could get the noise to an acceptable level. Every time I managed to get it quieter I would soon find myself thinking it's too loud again, so off to playing with it I would go.

Now that I've changed my overflow up, I made sure the drain pipe was somewhere in the neighborhood of 45 degrees from vertical. SOO much quieter. The water flows down one side of the pipe, preventing any air from building up and compressing inside the pipe, then gurgling as the air pressure becomes too much for the water. Instead, the air can expand as it wants/needs to and there's no gurgling. Just a very gentle trickle. In fact, my computer fans are louder than my entire sump now. Sitting about 2 feet away, I can slightly hear it. When I move to 5 feet away, nothing. Also, try to use as few "sharp turns" as possible in your plumbing. If you need to use a 90* elbow, swap it out for two 45's. Or, even better, use Spa-Flex, or some other kind of flexible tubing so that you get a gentle bend in the pipe, rather than a sudden change in direction (which causes turbulence, which is noisy).

As for pumps... I would look at reviews of the various pumps out there and see what fits your needs. That said, I use a Pondmaster (Mag-drive, but with a longer power cord) 9.5. It's fully submersible, comes with a sponge pre-filter, and is virtually silent.


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## JBMagi (Nov 9, 2010)

Thanks for the advice. I am going to pick up the pump tomorrow and the rest on saturday. I will post pics of the initial set up one its done.


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## rydog (Oct 15, 2010)

I haven't tried the drawer method myself but decided against it after hearing several people complain that theirs had broken the plastic since it isn't as flexible as other options. Just my 2cents...


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## Guams (Aug 21, 2009)

Which part broke? I've been using the drawer system for 1 year now and haven't had any problems with it.


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## JBMagi (Nov 9, 2010)

I just took a look at the skimerless design from bulldogg. I think i might go with that instead. I very much like the idea of being able to pull from down low or wherever I want. 
Also I have one of the sterilite drawers at home already. It is a very brittle plastic and can see it chipping apart or breaking if it gets beat up too much. I am going to look around for some different options that would have the same functionality. I am thinking a contractors screw organizing box.


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## JBMagi (Nov 9, 2010)

Now after some more reading I am thinking about making a spray bar for the return. I get the concept of a bar with holes but can't find any info on exactly how to size or space or direct the holes. Any suggestions?


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

*info on exactly how to size or space or direct the holes. Any suggestions?*

I suggest you start with smaller holes. You can always enlarge them.
Don`t glue the spray bar. Just hand tight into the fitting. That way you can twist it a bit for the best flow for your tank.


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## JBMagi (Nov 9, 2010)

Thanks for the pic and tip john. I have been searching the tubes for a decent pic of a DIY Spraybar and your is the best yet.


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## rydog (Oct 15, 2010)

Guams,
from what I remember reading it was the drawer that had cracked on them. I do not know personally but I was doing a ton of research before I started setting up my new tank. I decided to go with the bucket and tub idea instead. Maybe they were just hard on their stuff. who knows!


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

*the drawer that had cracked on them.*

The plastic gets brittle and will not take much abuse.
The stand/rack seem to hold up better.
I had a three drawer unit set up with the top drawer being the inlet, full of sponge and floss. The second drawer held plastic pot scrubbies and I left the third drawer out.
With it set that way, the stand/rack kept most all of the scrubbies out of the sump water and I had an extra drawer with sponge and floss ready to swap out the dirty one.
Pretty cool, worked fine.
Simple to do. Cheap to build. Getting another/spare drawer unit is not a big hit to the wallet. 
Just took up allot of space, headroom.
Be aware that those 5g plastic buckets get brittle also.
Take some pics of your build, if you would.
I get a big kick out of how some of these things get built.
Good Luck


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## DanDee (Mar 7, 2008)

JB Magi,

My drawer system...works great! It is very easy to maintain. It was a 3 drawer unit from Wally World, I only used two. It has been running for over two years with no issues(breaking?).

I have a twin set-up, one for each overflow. Returns are a pair of QuietOne 4000's.

There is a build thread on this site if you are interested.

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m469 ... G_1030.jpg

Dan


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## Guams (Aug 21, 2009)

KaiserSousay said:


> *the drawer that had cracked on them.*
> 
> The plastic gets brittle and will not take much abuse.
> The stand/rack seem to hold up better.
> ...


That's exactly what mine is set up like. How long did it take for the plastic to start having problems? Mine's been running continuously for a year now and I've yet to notice any difference in the plastic.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

*been running continuously for a year now and I've yet to notice any difference in the plastic.*
You already have me beat.
In less than a year my top drawer started cracking in between the 1/2in holes I put in it`s bottom.
They were in a grid pattern for diffusion over the scrubbies.
Guess I could have damaged the plastic in drilling.
Overheated?
For me, it was one of those things that was more fun to build than use.


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## JBMagi (Nov 9, 2010)

So the build has begun. Didnt get a lot done since I was with my 9 month old most of the weekend.

I am going with a double spray bar for a return. One bar along the top of each side of the tank. The one on the left will be directed across the surface and the one on the right will spray down.

Also I have decided to go with the skimmerless design from bulldogg for a return on the bottom left. The goal is to create a clockwise circulation within the tank that will keep any waste suspended for filtration.

Two problems I have run into so far. One I cant fit the size rubbermade sump I would like under my 72 bowfront. To solve this I am planning to put two smaller tubs linked by piping through the lower half of the sides. One will hold the filter drawers and the other the pump. The second problem is a good pump is expensive and I am cheap. I have seen a few good deals on ebay, but could use recommendations on a good quality but not too pricey pump.


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## Guams (Aug 21, 2009)

KaiserSousay said:


> *been running continuously for a year now and I've yet to notice any difference in the plastic.*
> You already have me beat.
> In less than a year my top drawer started cracking in between the 1/2in holes I put in it`s bottom.
> They were in a grid pattern for diffusion over the scrubbies.
> ...


We must have gotten our plans from the same source. :lol:

Although, that makes me wonder. I wonder why yours cracked but mine hasn't. Temperature couldn't be all that different assuming you were keeping Malawians in the tank. I can't, for the life of me, remember what size holes I drilled but they were in a grid pattern and I KNOW I cracked a couple. But there have been no new cracks since I drilled all the holes.

Could be as simple as the batch of plastic that was used during the manufacturing process... who knows.

*JBMagi*, budget limitations? If we know how much you're willing to spend, we might be able to point you in the right direction. My pump can be found for under $100...


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## JBMagi (Nov 9, 2010)

I was hoping for something around 50. Feel free to let me know if Im crazy or if any pumps in this range will be underpowered or unreliable or loud.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Pump selection can drive a guy nuts in a big hurry.
I looked long and hard at a wide variety of pumps.
I settled on CA Aquatics and a ViaAqua for some projects.
These are pretty decent for the money.
I liked that they could be run, both submerged or in line.
That`s a big plus for me. 
Sometimes during a project something will come up and take it in a whole new direction.
*Pay close attention to the flow charts for whatever pump you select.
Many pumps have a pretty dramatic reduction in flow when factoring in the head.*
Ebay has not coughed up any great deals I`ve seen for pumps.
Craig`s list was no help for me, when pump shopping.
I got mine through the major online retailers.
Good luck with your search.

*batch of plastic that was used during the manufacturing process*
Just what I was thinking.


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## JBMagi (Nov 9, 2010)

Any suggestions on how to size the pump. I am plumbing two 1 inch pipes thing into the specimen tank with a 1.25 drain to the first sump and a 1.25 return splitting into two 3/4 10 long spray bars. I don't want to go too small and not have enough movement to move the solids around. Also don't want to waste money on way too big of a pump that will have too spill most of its power right back into the sump through the T and ball valve. Also the head hight will be roughly 5 foot.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

There are a number of flow charts available to give you an idea of what to expect from your drain lines gph.
Is there someplace that will tell you EXACTLY what your flow will be.
Sorry, you are not going to find it.
Best you can do is get close and select a pump accordingly.
I would take the flow chart figures, look at available pumps in that gph range and get the next size up from what I thought I would need.
Can always dump some back in the sump, as you described.
But once you max out the pumps flow, you are done.

Once you decide on a likely pump, you can look around online.
Pretty sure you can come up with a gph @ ??head chart for it.


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## JBMagi (Nov 9, 2010)

Ok so I think I have decided on a via aqua 3300. It fis my budget, puts out slightly more power than I need, not more than my drain can handle, and has good reviews. 
My next possible is a decent "strainer" for the bottom of my 1 inch intake pipes. I want to make sure the smaller fish can't get sucked in and go for a wild ride. 
Also any suggestions to prevent overflows incase the drain gets clogged. I am going to run two one inch lines into the section tank from the main tank. My thought is if the flow is low enough that one can handle it the odds of both clogging are pretty low. 
Maybe one of my next projects will be to make a lost in the sump that cuts power when it drops to a certain point.


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## JBMagi (Nov 9, 2010)

Ok so the project is back on. I out it on hold because my wife always had a hard time picking xmas presents for me. I gave her a parts list for my list to santa. I did see a box arrive from marine depot, so I am pretty sure three build will start again this weekend. I will post pics as I go.


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## JBMagi (Nov 9, 2010)

Here are some pictures of the initial set up. This is just a dry run laid out on the floor so i can get a list of the last few fittings an see how everthing is going to flow.








This is the initial set up. The 3/4 lines will come up from the ViaAqua 3300 and hook over the top of the tank as two spray bars across the left and right top sides. The left will spray acros the surface to the right which will spray down the side.








The water will return through two 1 inch lines as shown above. One will run allong the bottom left like a spray bar but for drainage. The other will be set up like a traditional intake and is mostly for back up. 








This will then flow down a 1 1/4 line at a 45 degree angle to the three drawer filter.
I placed the three drawer to the right to accommodate the angle of the drain tube. The heater will be in the open space to the left and you can see the pump to the far right. I will also have the ball valve open a bit to decrease the power of the pump and circulate the water in the sump.

What do you guys think so far?


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## JBMagi (Nov 9, 2010)

Ok. The system is up and running minus the filter. I am using a three drawer set up but can't find any cheap media for it. Any suggestions on where to find pot scrubbers for cheap? I also need to pick something for the top drawer. I have heard some people use pillow stuffing. Any suggestions on that as well? I will post some pics tonight.


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## JBMagi (Nov 9, 2010)

Other options?


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## Mandalawi (Apr 24, 2005)

I've never done anything like this but for pot scrubbers how about any "Dollar store"? Seems to me i have seen them when visiting the local stores here in Michigan.


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## Malawi_Junkie (Nov 26, 2009)

Dollar Store, $1 = 6 Scrubbies


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## JBMagi (Nov 9, 2010)

Good call. I will take a look. Any ideas on what I can use for the top tray


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## JBMagi (Nov 9, 2010)

I found three packs of srcubbies at the dollar store. I picked up ten of them. My only question is the apear to have a small sponge in the middle of the scrubbie. Will these be ok?


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## JBMagi (Nov 9, 2010)

Ok scrubies are packed in nice and right. The top drawer still get a later of poly fill then felt then light defuser grate so the felt doesn't clog the holes. For the last tray I am thing ceramic rings. This tray will be submerged and I have heard the rings or noodles are best for a submerged section. What do you all think?


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Dollar store and wal mart will be your friend when it comes to filling up those drawers.
I found quilt batting to work better for me than pillow stuffing for getting the crud out.
Pot scrubbies and those woven plastic bath things went in the second drawer.
I never used the third drawer. 
Left it empty and set it up to be the replacement for servicing the first drawer.
Just slide out the messy and slide in the clean.
Whether you need a drawer full of ceramics, who knows. The drawer full of scrubbies would probably be all you need for the ammonia/nitrite munchers.


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## JBMagi (Nov 9, 2010)

I like the idea of swapping out the to drawer. I guess all that is left now is to set up the drawer and watch my levels.


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## JBMagi (Nov 9, 2010)

Here are some Finished pictures. Thanks for all the advice guys.









This is the tank with the two 1 inch intakes on the left. I Left them white as I will most likely redo them in the near future as I get a better feal for the system.









Left hand Spray bar spraying across the surface of the water









Right hand spray bar spraying down the side wall









This is how the spray bars enter the tank. It also helped to hold them in position









My overflow. A Little noisy but not bad









The 1 1/4 line entering the three drawers. The to drawer has a layer of felt covered by two layers of quilting fill









The sump with the heater and the viaaqua 3300


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