# Bad Substrate???



## Subzero74 (Feb 7, 2016)

Hey everyone,

I'm setting up a new 75 gallon tank and bought what I thought was Silica Sand from my local landscape supplier. I put it in my tank 3 days ago and have noticed lots of particles are continuously floating to the top of the tank and drop to the bottom. I've installed a filter and see many particles floating around the tank and being sucked up by the filter. I know the filter is going to become plugged. After taking a closer look at what I purchased, it is Black Shot 2 #20 made by Bell and MacKenzie. It contains 2% iron. I'm just wondering if anyone has used this in their tanks before. I'm also thinking I may remove it and start over with something else. Any help would be appreciated!

Justin


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## tanker3 (May 18, 2015)

Did you not rinse the sand first?


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## Subzero74 (Feb 7, 2016)

Unfortunately I didn't rinse the sand.......should I just let the filter do its work and stay on top of the media replacement?


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

What brand and model filter are you using? The reason I ask is that if the filter sucks up any of the iron, it will get stuck to the impeller magnet and cause damage, depending on the water flow path of your particular filter.


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## Subzero74 (Feb 7, 2016)

I have 2 Marineland 200's running.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

You could always add some filter batting, not floss, around the filter intake to trap particles with a rubber band. Change when it gets clogged or you notice reduced filter flow.

I've never used blasting sand or similar products that contain iron so I can't help much further than I've suggested.


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## Subzero74 (Feb 7, 2016)

Great thanks.....I will place some media around the intake to catch the floating particles.

Hopefully someone can tell me if this sandblasting material is a good or bad idea to use in my tank?


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## tanker3 (May 18, 2015)

Subzero74 said:


> Unfortunately I didn't rinse the sand.......should I just let the filter do its work and stay on top of the media replacement?


Well, it may not be too late to take out and rinse it. When you do a "sand Vac" it will stir up the dust again, if it is not clean. The filter is now only cleaning the dust from the water, there is still a lot in the sand.

I use Blasting sand too, but it is black. Not sure about yours.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

For insufficiently cleaned substrate, I find it easiest to take it out, clean it and put it back. Since that stuff is metallic and not silica sand, if I took it out I would not put it back.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Black Shot II - Material Safety Data Sheet

Some of the trace elements in there might be good if you have a planted tank, others not so much ...


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## Handyjoe (Jan 11, 2015)

DJRansome said:


> For insufficiently cleaned substrate, I find it easiest to take it out, clean it and put it back. Since that stuff is metallic and not silica sand, if I took it out I would not put it back.


+1. If it contains iron, wouldn't it turn into iron oxide (rust) and make the water yellow? I would take it out and replace it with something else. PFS?


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Handyjoe said:


> +1. If it contains iron, wouldn't it turn into iron oxide (rust) and make the water yellow?


It contains iron alright ... but it's already in the form of iron oxide ...

And yet the product itself is apparently black in color ... :wink:


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## Narwhal72 (Sep 26, 2006)

This material is slag from nickel and coal mining. It is not safe for use in aquariums. Not only will the iron particles destroy magnetic impellers, the high levels of heavy metals will dissolve in the water and be toxic to fish.

The copper level is 0.2-0.4%. That's equivalent to 2000ppm. Dosage rate for copper treatments is generally 0.1 ppm. There are also high levels of Zinc and Nickel.

I would take it out, drain the tank, and start over.

Andy


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

I have used it without any problems other than it kills snails. It is dirty though and needs to be well rinsed. The particles are magnetic, but it is unlikely they dissolve. I have heard from an LFS that used it that eventually it stopped killing snails. So, that would tend to indicate it does leach some stuff for at least a period of time. However, it does not dissolve so that may be a product of fines left after cleaning. The fact that it is nickel slag would make it magnetic even if there were no iron in it. It does not stain the water. My water was crystal clear when I first added it and stayed that way. The key is to wash it in small quantities so that swirling it doesn't trap fines that you want to get rid of. I actually air cleaned it before washing it by pouring it back and forth between a couple of buckets outside in a breeze. As well the stuff is light, so my second bag was #12 which is a little coarser, although I haven't used it yet.


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## Narwhal72 (Sep 26, 2006)

The high levels of copper are probably why it kills snails.

Where I used to live there were large piles of slag rocks left behind from nickel mining (I used to live down the road from Nickel Mines, PA after all). I made the mistake of using them in one of my tanks because they looked cool.

I scrubbed and boiled the rocks before adding them to the tanks. I could not keep fish alive in the tanks. They would die within days of addition. Eventually I removed them and that eliminated the problem.

All metals are water soluble. The rate of dissolution may be very slow. But they will dissolve into water eventually.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

Narwhal72 said:


> All metals are water soluble. The rate of dissolution may be very slow. But they will dissolve into water eventually.


Interesting statement. Is it, in fact true? We use copper pipes to plumb houses and they last for a very long time. My neighbour showed me a piece of 3" or 4" water pipe that had been in the ground since 1937, and it looked brand new. Perhaps if the water was acidic, the copper might dissolve, but in my case, the water is alkaline, and copper tests indicate no copper present. Perhaps the test is not accurate enough and there may in fact be copper present. However, plants flourish, and so do snails. It takes 2 ppm of copper to kill snails, as this is how I determined the dose rate for a copper treatment (called for 2 ppm) I did a few years ago. I added a solution of copper sulphate a few drops at a time until the snails started to fall off the glass.
Perhaps this thread isn't the place for this, but the subject might be worthy of discussion, if there is interest.


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## Narwhal72 (Sep 26, 2006)

It's true of most metals that form salts. Copper sulfate is a highly water soluble salt of copper. Zinc chloride is a water soluble salt of zinc. 
Copper pipes corrode and leach copper into water. It's evidenced by the blue color you see on old copper. It is the copper turning into a salt through oxidation reactions. The copper salts then dissolve in water.

More info on copper pipe dissolution can be found here as well as dozens of other sites on the internet.
http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/w ... opper.html

The important thing to remember is that the dwell time of water in your pipes is usually very short. The water is just passing through as the water is running and doesn't pick up much copper. The longer it sits the more it picks up.

With a substrate in an aquarium the dwell time is orders of magnitude longer than the dwell time in the pipe. The water will pick up much more metal from the substrate that way. The dwell time is determined by the frequency and volume of water changes.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Narwhal72 said:


> ... Copper pipes corrode and leach copper into water. *It's evidenced by the blue color you see on old copper*. ...


Or the blue/green stains you see on fixtures (tile, sinks, bathtubs, etc) in a house that's plumbed with copper pipe.

Some friends of our used to live in the Western VA/Shenandoah Valley area ... bought what was essentially a weekend cottage and finished it out and turned it into their home. Initially it was untreated well water. Blue/green stains on all fixtures in the bathroom from water dripping.


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## Narwhal72 (Sep 26, 2006)

And you would have had to be living under a rock (if you live in the U.S.) and not have heard about the lead in the water in Flint, MI. The lead isn't from the river, it's from the pipes.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

I am well aware of the high solubility of copper sulphate as I have used it for ant parasitic treatments and as an algaecide in my swimming pool. I appreciate the dwell factor, as that is the most critical in a tank. The use of lead solder has been discontinued for potable water, and in home plumbing. However, most municipal water supplies that go through copper are treated to be alkaline, so the pipes don't corrode. The insides of the pipes do not turn green. Green on that is visible on the outside of copper pipes is from the acidic flux used for soldering, it isn't caused by water.
I guess it comes down to how much and how often you change the water as to whether dwell time becomes an issue. I am curious now and will try growing some plants in the blasting sand. If there is copper present they will quickly die.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

Narwhal72 said:


> And you would have had to be living under a rock (if you live in the U.S.) and not have heard about the lead in the water in Flint, MI. The lead isn't from the river, it's from the pipes.


This is, indeed, scandalous. The problem here is that the corrosive nature of the river water dissolved the lead from the pipes. It would seem, if the article I read is factually correct, there wasn't a problem with the water from Detroit, which was in the same pipes.


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## Fish Jerk (Mar 9, 2016)

I think it was some chemical they put in there to clarify the water, but maybe not.

All reactive metals will dissolve into water but very slowly because it depends on surface area.

However this is a hazard since it's full of heavy metals and should not be put into your sewage system let alone in with your fish. You may wash it out with water over time but you are ultimately just pushing the problem down the line as it were.


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