# HELP! Re-cycling an established tank???



## Dogmah (Dec 22, 2012)

Hey guys. I'm in need of some serious help right now. To make a long story short, one of my buddies is going into the military and left me with his 60 gallon cichlid tank. Since I already have a salt water tank, he thought I'd be the best candidate to take care of this tank.

Anways, in the tank right now is an albino oscar (~6-7 inches or so) and a jack dempsey (~4-5 inches or so). Now he said he's had this tank up and running for about 1-2 years, which was my first indicator that the water parameters were terrible. I'm wondering if the size of these fish are normal for 1-2 year setup or if the terrible water parameters truly stunted these fish growth. It does seem the oscar bullies the JD occasionally, but the JD does come out and eat while the oscar is just a straight PIG!

When I took the levels, the pH was around 6.0, nitrate over 80 ppm, nitrite 0, and the ammonia around 1.5. I knew right away that this tank was never actually cycled correctly because of the presence of ammonia, and extremely high ammonia to say the least. The tank was running 1x Aqueon 30 HOB filter with biomax pellets, 1x penguin 150 with biowheel, and 1x penguin 350 with 2x biowheels. I thought since the tank obviously has never truly cycled it may be a bio overload, so I went out and bought a fluval 205 canister filter to provide ample biomedia.

So with the levels as terrible as they were, I emptied the entire tank and re-filled the water. It has been 4 days since then and I've been watching the water parameters each day:
Day #1 - pH 7.2, nitrite 0, nitrate 5.0, ammonia 0.25-0.5
Day #2 - pH 7.2, nitrite 0, nitrate 10, ammonia 0.5-1.0
Day #3 - pH 7.2, nitrite 0, nitrate 20, ammonia 0.5-1.0
Day #4 (today) - pH 6.6, nitrite 0, nitrate 80, ammonia 0.25-0.5

So today with the nitrate spike and the drop in pH, I decided to do ~50% WC. I'm not sure if WCs are recommended in this situation or not, but I thought the nitrates were just too high and acidifying the pH too much to let it go any further. I haven't taken the levels again since I've done the WC earlier, but I will later on tonight.

My ultimate question here is if there is any hope for the tank and the 2x fish (oscar, JD). I know my buddy would be upset if I had to restart the tank entirely with new smaller fish to allow for an easier cycle, but if that seems to be the only option, I'm willing to do it for him. What do you guys recommend I do? Is it even possible to try to cycle this tank with the massive bio-load these 2x decently sized fish are putting out? Should I continue to just watch the water parameters, continue to do WCs when they become elevated, and eventually the tank will cycle? Is it even worth trying to salvage these fish, as they've obviously been exposed to horrendous levels for quite some time now, and though I'm not a freshwater/cichlid expert at all, I feel as though they should be MUCH bigger given my buddy has had these fish 1-2 years now. I have a very reliable LFS close to my house if giving these fish away would be the most logical option.

If you need any additional information from me, just let me know. As I said, I'm not expert in freshwater/cichlids, which is why I really need your guys' help. Any advice at all is much appreciated! Thanks guys.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

It is probable that the tank cycled long ago, but the water just isn't clean leading to the high ammonia. A quite WC should fix that.

Changing ALL of the water could have recycled the tank though.

I would expect the fish to be larger, probably poor water conditions are the issue. At their size they aren't too much fish for the aquarium, but once the Oscar gets over 12", they probably are.


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

First, a 60 is bare minimum for an oscar. The reason the tank is re cycling is probably when you transferred it, the bacteria died off. Keep monitoring the water parameters. If you can find Dr Tims in your area, use it. I have also had success with Tetra SafeStart. There isn't much you can do.

Ask the LFS if you can have a squeeze of a filter pad, or even a sponge itself, or some gravel.

I think you should keep those fish, it would suck if your buddy came home to no fish.


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## Dogmah (Dec 22, 2012)

So you think by just watching the water parameters daily and doing WCs when the levels get too elevated, I'll be able re-cycle (if that's what the tank is actually doing) and get the parameters stable again? I should be able to do all of this with the 2x fish in the tank?

And if so, once I do get the water parameters within a reasonable range again, should I be seeing the fish starting to grow again, or do you think they may be terminally stunted?

Thanks guys.


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

You should be able to re cycle, look into Prime, it detoxifies ammonia but makes it available to the bacteria.


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## Dogmah (Dec 22, 2012)

It doesn't seem as though the ammonia is the problem right now, as it seems to be lingering around 0.25 - 0.5 over these past 4 days. Is it normal to see that nitrate spike though? It started at 5, which was the measurement when I filled the entire tank with new water and didn't put the fish in yet, then 10 the next day, then 20 the next day, and then to 80 today, which was when I did the WC.


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

The nitrate spike makes it seem like the filter is actually processing ammonia, but not fast enough. The cycle is getting there. Still get some Prime because ammonia is always harmful in any amount.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Gravel substrate? Did you vacuum when you did the water changes? 
Your nitrate readings doubled for each of the first 3 days and quadrupled for the 4th day. That's a lot which leads me to think there might be organics breaking down.


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## Dogmah (Dec 22, 2012)

Yes, I did vacuum the gravel. And with about 20% water left, I just stuck my hands into the gravel and churned everything up before taking the rest of the water out. I'm pretty sure I got most of what was in the gravel, but maybe I'm wrong.


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## Dogmah (Dec 22, 2012)

Today the levels were exactly the same as yesterday, even after the WC (~50%).

pH : 6.6
nitrite : 0
ammonia : 0.25 - 0.50
nitrate : 80

I'm not understanding why the nitrate levels are SO high. I'm guessing maybe I didn't vacuum all of the junk in the gravel before I emptied the entire tank and refilled it? I tried to vacuum it as best as possible, and then I churned up all of the gravel with my hands with about 20% water left, then emptied the rest out with all of the suspended junk from churning. Does anyone possibly have an explaination for this huge spike?


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

There's probably some dead spot collect a lot of poo.


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## Dogmah (Dec 22, 2012)

Yeah I mean I have a ton of filters throughout the tank (aqueon 30 HOB, penguin 150 HOB, penguin 350 HOB, and the fluval 205 canister), and each time I'm doing these WCs, I'm making sure I'm vacuuming all of the additional poop that I can see.

I'm guessing my best option is to continue with the WCs each time the nitrates or ammonia get high like that? Am I disrupting the cycling of the tank at all by doing these daily WCs? I'm really not sure what else to do. Any advice is appreciated. Thanks !


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

WC does not disrupt the cycle. When you do 50% it should cut your nitrates in half. I'd keep doing that until your nitrates are 10ppm.


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## Dogmah (Dec 22, 2012)

OK thanks. Is there a certain percentage of the water I should be keeping in the tank each do though? I mean I just did a 50% WC with the nitrates at 80 ppm, so this should bring them down to around 40ish. Should I do another WC later today or wait until tomorrow to do another?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Did you test to confirm the 40ppm?

I'd do one/day as long as you are now 40ppm or under.

I also routinely change 75% or even 90% of the water in my tanks...leave enough for the fish to swim in. But since your nitrates are changing so dramatically...50% daily will be less of a shock for them.


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## Dogmah (Dec 22, 2012)

Thanks for all the help. I'm noticing now the water is getting very cloudy/foggy with a white-ish appearance. There also seems to be a very light dusting of this white-ish matter on my glass as well. I'm guessing this is indicative of the start of the cycle?

By the way, I just re-took the levels after my water change earlier and these were the levels:
pH : 6.6
nitrite : 0
ammonia : 0.25 - 0.50 (I'm guessing this is just what my normal tap water carries, but I do treat my water with Stress Coat)
nitrate : ~80 again !

I'm really confused as to how the nitrates have replenished so quickly. They were at 80 earlier this afternoon when I did the 50% water change, and now they're already reading 80 again, only ~5-6 hours after the change. Should I do another WC tonight or let the tank go until morning? As I said ealier in the post, it does seem the tank is beginning to cycle from all of the cloudiness and the white-ish matter collecting on my glass. I'm guessing this is just a bacterial bloom?

Any help is much appreciated guys! Thanks.


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

Did you shake the bottles A LOT?


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## Dogmah (Dec 22, 2012)

Yeah it says to shake them for about 30 seconds each before testing and I do. It is a freshwater/saltwater API test kit that I use for my SW tank as well, which is reading ~5.0 so it isn't a faulty test I dont believe. I'll re-take it and post back only if the value changes.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The white fog is a bacteria bloom. Not part of a normal cycle. It's a reaction to the extra ammonia though.

You shake 30 seconds before but also 60 seconds after mixing the 2nd solution. Lack of shaking will give you nitrate=0 though, not a too-high reading.

What if you tested wrong at the beginning and NOW the test is accurate? We often see people who can't come down from 80 because 80 is the max for the test so what if the nitrate was really 200? Then even if you cut it in half it would still be 80.

I'd change 75% of the water and measure immediately after and let us know the result.


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## Dogmah (Dec 22, 2012)

So I may have found the problem. The water I'm taking from the tap has a pH of 7.2, ammonia of 0.25-0.50, and nitrate of 60-70! Is this normal for a tap to be giving water with such high nitrates? What should I do now because it's obviously the water I'm putting in the tank that is carrying the high nitrates.


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

After you get it cycled, I would get rid of the gravel and change to pool filter sand. Gravel is like having a sewer right in your tank, it traps poo and food. If you use coarse sand it is much easier to keep clean. Just wash the sand in a bucket until the water is completely clear and then add prime.


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## zwanged (Nov 20, 2012)

Agreed. Your gravel is going to be a giant nitrate factory and switching to sand sounds like a very good idea. You should probably be careful disturbing the gravel while fish are in the tank...I'd probably move them somewhere else while changing out gravel for sand. Personally I like pool filter sand. it's about $10 for a 50 pound bag. make sure to clean it really well.

That said, it sounds like your tap water has serious issues...

-Zeke


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

I would contact your water supplier immediately. In the US the limit is 10 ppm.


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## Dogmah (Dec 22, 2012)

Yeah, I'm really glad I figured that out. I plan on calling the water company tomorrow.

I confirmed it wasn't a faulty test or test kit by taking the same reading out of my kitchen faucet and bathtub faucet. I also tested my saltwater RO/DI water, which measure 0 nitrates, and a bottle of springwater, which measured 0-5 nitrates. I guess I truly do have a huge problem on my hands with the tap water.

What do you guys recommend I do from here for the tank though? Will the fish be OK swimming in 80 ppm nitrates for the night? Should I go out tomorrow and try and buy something that will get rid of nitrates? I know you guys mentioned Prime for neutralizing the toxicity of the ammonia. Does Prime also get rid of nitrates?


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

I don't think Prime gets rid of nitrate, I think Seachem Purigen does.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

Bottle water till you sort out the problem?


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