# getting the tank to work again



## mcaquatic (Dec 21, 2016)

Hi everyone first post on this forum. I am very long term fish keeper and have roughly 2000 gallon fish room but Africans are really not a fish I keep, so to be honest my experience with them is limited. About 3 years ago I put together an all male malawi tank in my waiting room and it was a hit. fast forward 3 years and ....

SO I recently upgraded my work tank from a 46 bow to a 75g. The fish were overall getting along but just out grew the space. The tank was still a great work display tank. Since I have upgraded all has gone down hill. The tank had a lot of yellow labs, yellow tail aci, malawi dolphin, some rusties, and three OB peacocks and knock your socks off dragon blood. Since the upgrade I am pretty sure the dragon blood killed the yellow tails and one OB peacock and the one of the dolphins killed all the other dolphins. I tried adding in a bunch of smaller Africans to grow out and they were picked off. I then added 3 blue type peacocks non hybrids, 3 red shoulder type non hybrid (sorry I know terrible with names), a really nice OB peacock, two cobue zebras, some type of lab with red dorsal fin -lab trewavasae, a large flame queen and a huge gorgeous sunshine.
Sunshine picked off and couldn't save. Flame queen harassed badly but saved (now in my fish room). I pulled the dragonblood to let the tank settle and now the OB and dolphin have taken over and all other fish hide.
What fish do I need to pull from this tank and what to replace with or what can I add to the tank and leave the leave the stock I have including adding back my dragon blood (who was a client favorite)
I am trying to get back to a colorful and active waiting room tank
thank you


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## tanker3 (May 18, 2015)

I am an Mbuna person, but I have heard all the same horror story's that you have been through with a mix Mbuna and Peacock tank, and the same with an all Male tank. I can only wish you luck and maybe DJR can help.


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## Pdxmonkeyboy (Oct 17, 2016)

others with more experience can chime in. I have an all male peacock and happy tank (and a yellow lab) and I have been pretty lucky so far. Of course everyone was getting along fine.. so I added a venustus, another OB and large red fin borleyi. The Borleyi knocked the sunshine peacock of the throne.. but not before beating him into submission, now my dolphin thinks he is tough and has singled out my nyererei to harass and my red shoulder had to be placed in hospital tank as he was just about see through, hiding in the corner and not eating.

so.. we will see how it plays out but back to your tank I can offer a couple ideas. 
1. make sure there is no females in there. it sounds like they are mostly colored males, if there is one female rusty or something it can really cause havoc. (I mean, one female in a bar full of agressive men...). 
2. you can try shutting the lights off and completely rearrange all the decor, maybe add some more or take some away. The fish will have to claim new territories.. it can help smooth things out. I have heard this is very popular when adding new fish. 
3. I have seen people remove ALL rocks.. this no territory, no fight theory. Don't know if I agree with it. 
4. decide who is the biggest trouble maker and remove them. See if things calm down a bit.
5. you can try feeding them less but more often. full stomach= less agression.

that's all I got... I'm new to cichlids as well but absolutely love them! Most dynamic and fun fish I have kept.


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## Aaron S (Apr 4, 2015)

Let me see if I can get your current stocking list straight to help the more knowledgeable guys:

"A lot" - Labidochromis caeruleus
1 - Cyrtocara moorii *
"some" - Rusties
3 - OB Peacocks*
1 - Dragonsblood
3 - "blue peacocks - not hybrids"
3 - "red shoulder - not hybrids"
2 - Cynotilapia zebroids "Cobue
1 - Labeotropheus trewavasae

Could you add approximate sizes of the fish to my list above as well as male/female ratio if you know it? I think you have new malawi keeper syndrome where you buy a bunch of fish that look cool just like you would with a community tank and then as they get older they start murdering everyone causing your tank to become a clue game. Your original stocking wasn't too bad actually. There are a few things to remember with malawi...

1. There are two tank stocking methodologies that are used: All-male peacock/haps and breeding groups (this name is kind of a misnomer since many people don't actually want fry from the groups). The all-male tank requires that there are no females because they release hormones in the water which make the whole tank unruly. In this case you only buy male fish that are in the peacock/haps category and often people will put a yellow lab and an acei in that tank. In a 75 gal you would probably get ~10-12 fish total in this kind of a stocking plan. This kind of stocking plan often results in exactly what you have been observing in your tank now where you have to take fish out and exchange them for a different fish to try to find a happy medium - taking years to settle.

The breeding groups tank is much more forgiving. In the breeding group tank you add several species groups including males and females to the tank. A 75 gal 4ft tank would normally have 3 or 4 groups of fish that are carefully selected to be 1M: 4F or more depending on the species. The males of these fish are notoriously hard on the females and even harder on other males (for example, this could be why you are left with only one dolphin because you had the wrong ratio of males to females and likely the fish you have now is a male). Your original stocked tank looked like a reasonable attempt at breeding groups with peaceful mbuna and the hybrid peacocks which are likely to have similar temperments. I suspect you may have been really overstocked in your 3ft tank and when the stocking dropped in the 4ft tank then the fish could more easily target eachother.

2. I already mentioned this before, but the male/female ratio is really important so I thought it beared repeating

3. When you are stocking the tank you need to consider how peaceful the fish are relative to eachother.

So it depends what you want to do with the tank. If you are using it as a main display tank and you have the ability/desire to deal with the aggression issues then you may want the all male tank. In this scenario, you start by getting rid of the rusties, cobue, and trewavasae then reduce the number of each of the other species you have to 1 (and it has to be a male). That would put you at:
1M - Labidochromis caeruleus
1M - Cyrtocara moorii *
1M - OB Peacocks*
1M - Dragonsblood
1M - "blue peacocks - not hybrids"
1M - "red shoulder - not hybrids"

Then you can get 4 or 5 more fish like - acei, placidochromis electra, maybe try the sunshine again (If you are hoping the dragonsblood didn't murder him)
You may need to get rid of the dragonsblood or OB's in this scheme depending on aggression.

There are a bunch of choices if you wanted a breeding group tank...


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## mcaquatic (Dec 21, 2016)

hi thanks for all the input. I definitely would not say I have new malawi keeper syndrome. This stocking was based on recommendation of friends

All are males except for one lab female
"A lot" - Labidochromis caeruleus probably about 8-10 total. Unfortunately there is one female here. I bought the initial fish as juvies and she was the only one I was wrong on. As a result the population is growing. Luckily not many of the fry survive
1 - Cyrtocara moorii *
2 - male rusties
3 - OB Peacocks*
1 - Dragonsblood
3 - "blue peacocks - not hybrids" -think A. nyassae or A. stuartgrainti - common name regel blue
2 - "red shoulder - not hybrids" -- only two. The third is in my fish room. the two in the tank are baenschi red
2 - Cynotilapia zebroids "Cobue
1 - Labeotropheus trewavasae

my most aggressive fish for sure at this point are the moori, dragon blood and one of the ob. The dragon blood is in a time out in my fish room.

I have no interest in breeding african cichlids to be honest. I have a couple of projects at home that I am working on for breeding (my panda uaru pair, L200a group, marble motoro trio and some others) and that is enough for me


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## Aaron S (Apr 4, 2015)

Well it is a curious method to stock multiple males males of a few species, I have not yet seen anyone recommend that on this forum. I will hold off on too many responses in favor of some people jumping into the thread who have a lot more experience than I do in keeping malawi. I will say, that I am not surprised that a stock of 3 males in a species end up murdering each other even if there were no other females in the tank. With the peaceful peacocks and haps you will be able to get away with it but not many of the others. I am curious to see how long your cobue's last together. I have had a single male dragonsblood (who was also awesome looking so I totally understand what your customers were thinking) in a tank with some other mostly all male fish (mbuna) and he was kicking their butts a bunch too - they can be feisty!


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## mcaquatic (Dec 21, 2016)

thanks again for the continued in put. it is actually really not the males of the same species beating each other up. The regel peacocks are leaving each other alone. The one red shoulder that got beaten up was beaten by the dragon blood. The real aggressors seem to be the moori, the dragon blood (who is pulled) and now one of the orange OB is talking that spot. Are all OB hybrids? I have heard hybrids are the more aggressive peacocks. Should I pull all three ob and the moori and add more mild peacocks? I am getting the feeling that the dragon blood will not be re entering this tank based on everyones response. 
As far as the cobue go, they were kind of thrown in from a purchase from another hobbyist. If they pick each other off I am ok with that. Though at this time they seem very happy. Would an image of the tanks rock work be of any use?


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## Pdxmonkeyboy (Oct 17, 2016)

first step in my book would be to get rid of that female!!! Her hormones definately causing issues


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## BuckeyeTez (May 10, 2016)

The OB's and Dragons blood are a hybrid and are either chill or a complete @$$hole IME. I've gotten rid of a few and just picked up a younger one who was not high in the rankings at my LFS but still shows good color.

You really don't know what you'll get until you try it. Honestly until you have a good holding tank to remove him if it doesn't work, I wouldn't even try. A timeout box won't do much, been there and done that.


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## mcaquatic (Dec 21, 2016)

is there a way to quote people and insert it into the post?
Not sure where time out box came from. As I mentioned previously the dragonblood is in my fish room at home. As in not in the tank at work. Sorry if there was any confusion


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

There is a "quote" button in upper right of each post.

I am surprised the haps and peacocks are killing the mbuna as usually we hear the opposite. But yes it sounds like you may have hybrids (and one moorii) that are more aggressive than the norm and may want to replace those individuals. OB peacocks are not natural in the lake.

However, since I am surprised the haps and peacocks EVER worked with aggressive mbuna like labeotropheus, I would probably choose either mbuna or peacocks/haps for the remainder of my stocking. Yellow labs and acei being the exception that are usually OK with haps and peacocks.


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## BuckeyeTez (May 10, 2016)

mcaquatic said:


> The dragon blood is in a time out in my fish room.


Sorry, I read it as he was in a timeout box.


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## mcaquatic (Dec 21, 2016)

DJRansome said:


> There is a "quote" button in upper right of each post.
> 
> I am surprised the haps and peacocks are killing the mbuna as usually we hear the opposite. But yes it sounds like you may have hybrids (and one moorii) that are more aggressive than the norm and may want to replace those individuals. OB peacocks are not natural in the lake.
> 
> However, since I am surprised the haps and peacocks EVER worked with aggressive mbuna like labeotropheus, I would probably choose either mbuna or peacocks/haps for the remainder of my stocking. Yellow labs and acei being the exception that are usually OK with haps and peacocks.


thanks for pointing out the quote button. Can't believe I missed that

I had yellow tail aci. I lost them after the upgrade. Both bloated so not sure if actually do to the dragon
should I pull the moori and all hybrid peacocks?
If I do that can I add a red empress, some yellow tail aci and a couple other calmer peacocks


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Empress is too big for a 75G IMO.

You still have the labeotropheus, I would pull him. And the female yellow lab...or add lots more yellow lab females.

You already have bunches of blue peacocks. You could add two yellows (Stuartgranti maleri Maleri Island and Stuartgranti Usisya) and one red Aulonocara ruescens or German Red.

Swap out the moorii for a less aggressive individual if you like, and add some more haps that mature <= 6".


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## mcaquatic (Dec 21, 2016)

DJRansome said:


> Empress is too big for a 75G IMO.
> 
> You still have the labeotropheus, I would pull him. And the female yellow lab...or add lots more yellow lab females.
> 
> ...


what haps do you recommend


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Current stock that you will keep?
1 - Cyrtocara moorii (swap individuals)
2 - male rusties
2 - OB Peacocks (remove the aggressive one)
3 - A. koningsi - (a.k.a. Blue Regal)
2 - A. stuartgranti (a.k.a. hansbaenschi or red shoulder)
2 - Cynotilapia zebroids "Cobue

I actually like 12 individuals in 48x18 for all male. If you want to push the envelope:
1 - A. stuartgranti Maleri Maleri Island
1 - A. stuartgranti Usisya
1 - A. german red, ruby or rubescens
1 - Protomelas marginatus
1 - Copadichromis azureus, trewavasae or chrysonotus
1 - Otopharynx lithobates Z Rock or tetrastigma


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## Pdxmonkeyboy (Oct 17, 2016)

hey DJ.. slightly off topic, do you find moorii to be more agressive than the typical hap? I wasn't feeding my tank for a couple of days and the moorii was going off the deep end and fighting with everyone


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

No the stories I hear (never having kept them...not a fan of nuchal humps) go both ways. But I thought they were medium to low aggression. The article agrees:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/c_moorii.php. Being an 8" fish maybe they are more peaceful in a 72" tank?


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## Pdxmonkeyboy (Oct 17, 2016)

great article, thanks for the link. Mine THINKS he is 8" long but in reality he is about 4". He will ultimately end up in the 8', 300 gallon "malawi super tank"... but I have yet to build said tank.


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## mcaquatic (Dec 21, 2016)

DJRansome said:


> Current stock that you will keep?
> 1 - Cyrtocara moorii (swap individuals)
> 2 - male rusties
> 2 - OB Peacocks (remove the aggressive one)
> ...


great. will get on it. thank you

was googling the fish and realized I actually have a young male Otopharynx lithobates in the tank


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## mcaquatic (Dec 21, 2016)

also about how big should the new additions be?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You are going to buy sexed males so the fish will likely be 3" or larger...that should be fine.


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## mcaquatic (Dec 21, 2016)

DJRansome said:


> You are going to buy sexed males so the fish will likely be 3" or larger...that should be fine.


any suggestions on where to order from? having a hard time finding the lot of them together in NJ. thanks


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Cicilid-forum would like to keep vendor info in the Reviews section so it is accessible and out of the forums. PM sent.


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## mcaquatic (Dec 21, 2016)

Hope I don't get crucified for asking this (don't know this forum well enough) but do people every use dithers and target fish in African tanks to help spread aggression and make fish more comfortable? I am not a purest and seems like some barbs can be great for this.


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## Aaron S (Apr 4, 2015)

Most people do not use a non-african dither fish. I don't think it is merely a purist reason but the africans are darn fast - you may be hard pressed to find a dither fish that can actually survive. Most of us want the africans anyway.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

IME the dither fish don't manage aggression as well as cichlids. Cichlids don't seem to be distracted by dithers. And yes, dithers may not live their full life spans (depending on the cichlid and non-cichlid species).

For all-male with 12 you should not have a problem if you get rid of females and duplicates.


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## mcaquatic (Dec 21, 2016)

ok aqcuired some of the extra fish and next month I am going to tear the tank down and get rid of the extra fish.
two things
1) i forgot there is a red zebra in there. Can that stay?

2)right now the back of the tank is a wall of lava rock with a small space between the rock and the glass. I will have to take all this out to catch the fish. When I build it back up is this a good way to have it or is there a better setup? thank you


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would get rid of the zebra. Since you will have mostly haps and peacocks they like more open water. Maybe a pile of rocks for the mbuna and a boulder here and there for the haps and peacocks. Lots of open sand and water. Always leave the width of the siphon between the glass and the rocks for easy maintenance.


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## BuckeyeTez (May 10, 2016)

FWIW, I have 3 Mbundu in my 125g, my lab and rusty ignore everyone, then there is my White Tail Acei. I used to have a yellow tail but he would pick at new fish so he went back. The white tail likes to "inspect" the new fish, more like follow them EVERYWHERE. The new fish think they are being chased and swim faster so the Acei does the same. It's borderline herassment but he doesn't nip and it's usually over after a day. He's only like 3.5" now so I'm leaving him alone as I'm calling my tank "full" but I'm sure we've all said that and then get a new fish


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## BuckeyeTez (May 10, 2016)

FWIW, I have 3 Mbundu in my 125g, my lab and rusty ignore everyone, then there is my White Tail Acei. I used to have a yellow tail but he would pick at new fish so he went back. The white tail likes to "inspect" the new fish, more like follow them EVERYWHERE. The new fish think they are being chased and swim faster so the Acei does the same. It's borderline herassment but he doesn't nip and it's usually over after a day. He's only like 3.5" now so I'm leaving him alone as I'm calling my tank "full" but I'm sure we've all said that and then get a new fish.

I would go with labs again and my single Rusty male doesn't seem to care about anyone. I would skip Acei if going for an all male tank. Their color isn't that great and get really big. A lot more prettier fish out there.

I know you said you lost yours due to another aggressive fish, but just chiming in on my experience with mbuna in a Hap/Peacock tank.


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## mcaquatic (Dec 21, 2016)

BuckeyeTez thank you for the input
DJransome if I am hearing you right I should get rid of the full back wall of rock and do a couple of piles?

I am kicking myself somehow I forgot to paint the back of the tank so will need to figure out what to do about that


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yes a couple of piles. Nothing close to the glass.


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## mcaquatic (Dec 21, 2016)

any thoughts on how to make the back of the tank look good (hide wires and tubes etc) without moving it?


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

mcaquatic said:


> any thoughts on how to make the back of the tank look good (hide wires and tubes etc) without moving it?


You can try some poster board in the color you want or get a large scrap of cardboard and paint with latex paint your preferred color. Some people have also used a black trash bag and cut it to fit.

If you have enough space between the tank and wall, you may be able to use a paint roller and latex paint to paint it in place. You would still need to be able to clean the glass prior to painting and remove any filters or wires for access.


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