# Fairly new to cichlid keeping, Firemouth



## micedreamer (Aug 29, 2010)

I got a 36 gallon tank from my friend. At the LFS, there was this really colorful firemouth, so I brought it. I'm planning to find a pair for it. I had him for a week now. Right now its a little over 2 inches from mouth to tailfin (I measured it). I took some picture, but their really bad  sorry.

Could anybody help me tell whether its a male or female? or is it still too small to determine? and should I go to a different fish store to buy another firemouth to avoid inbreeding? (There are 3 stores near me that sell firemouths)

http://s1031.photobucket.com/albums/y37 ... C01146.jpg

http://s1031.photobucket.com/albums/y37 ... C01163.jpg

http://s1031.photobucket.com/albums/y37 ... C01166.jpg

http://s1031.photobucket.com/albums/y37 ... C01190.jpg

http://s1031.photobucket.com/albums/y37 ... C01193.jpg


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

More than likely the three strores around you get all their fish from the same distributor. But if one store seems to be better than another go there.

As for sexing, it's too young for me to sex it. If you're interested in attaining a pair go get yourself 5 more of them and let them pair off on their own. You will know when it happens! Then take the other four back for some store credit!


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## micedreamer (Aug 29, 2010)

So is it ok to inbreed them, since the other firemouth are probably from the same spawn?
I'm going to pick some up later this afternoon, what sort of behavior do I look for to identify the pairs?

I'm going to get three, now I'll have four total.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

> So is it ok to inbreed them, since the other firemouth are probably from the same spawn?


They'll be fine.



> I'm going to pick some up later this afternoon, what sort of behavior do I look for to identify the pairs?


Two will stake out a territory and spawn, the odd ones out will be cowering up in a corner somewhere fearing for their lives.



> I'm going to get three, now I'll have four total.


Someone can correct me on this but I think you've only got a 50/50 shot at getting a pair when working with four, your chances go up incredibly when working with five or six, six being the magic number...


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## micedreamer (Aug 29, 2010)

alright thanks.


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## micedreamer (Aug 29, 2010)

I put in the 3 firemouth I brought and the one I had is attacking all three of them.
His colors are way darker then the other three and their all about the same size.
I placed in additional caves/hideout, but their all empty.
None of the new ones are fighting back, they just swim in the corner.
When I fed them two of the new one got a couple of bits. The old one took pretty much everything and the last one didn't get any. It didn't even try it just continue to swim against the wall. 
The three new one are forced to stay on the mid-top level of the tank. If they swim down a little bit the old one comes and attack them.

What should i do?


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Take all of the fish out, rearrange the tank then put the new ones back in first. A couple hours later put the original one back in and see what happens...


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## micedreamer (Aug 29, 2010)

It didn't work. I took out all four, changed the hideouts. Add in the three new ones. They were swimming around and finding their own caves and stay in them. They were all aggressive toward each other. About an hour later I put in the old one, it kicked all three out of their caves and forced them all in the same corner again.

Does this mean this old one is too aggressive and I won't be able to get a pair for it?


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

I'd take the aggresor back to the store and pick up three more... But that's me...


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## micedreamer (Aug 29, 2010)

I would but the aggressive one is best looking one I have ever seen. It got really dark and vivid colors. It even got a tint of yellow at the end of the top fin and its only 2 inches.

http://s1031.photobucket.com/albums/y37 ... C01255.jpg

I think it was a lucky find, so I don't want to give back the old one. I wanted to get a counter part for it.

Do you know of any other ways? If not will having one by itself be happy in the tank?


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Your problem is the size difference in such a small tank. I'd either do what TheFishGuy suggested, or if you really like the big one do the following:

Get/make a tank divider (make sure it's see through), and divide off about 1/4 of the tank for the big one. Then, get at least 2 more small ones for the other side. Try to get a high ratio of suspected female small ones (your colorful one is more likely to be male it isn't a sure thing). Wait until either a pair forms from the small ones, or one of them seems interested in your big one. Try to remove the divider then, but be prepared to put it back in.

If it doesn't work, he/she may have to live their life with fast moving dither tankmates. Preacox Rainbowfish (aka as dwarf neon rainbows) would look nice as tankmates.


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## micedreamer (Aug 29, 2010)

what size difference?

colorful one is 2in
#1 and #2 are also 2in
#3 is about 2.5in

but the colorful is still attacking the 2.5in one

i don't really like the idea of putting in a tank divider? is it possible for him to find a counter part and mate when he is bigger? like 4-6 inches already?
should i just keep him by itself and return the other three? will it be happy and health by itself with dithers?


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

They would do fine by themselves. It's either that or a divider. These fish, cichlids, all have different personalities. I've had plenty of rough and tumble firemouths that would never accept a tank mate, on the other hand I've had a few that are completely passive...

Your options have been laid out. Besides the tank divider or return him I can't really see another option...


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## AnnaFish (Aug 9, 2006)

Do you only have the firemouths in there?

Maybe you need some distractors (dithers).

I think that your colorful one is colorful because he is in a constant state of aggression.

In the end, if you can't have the pairing that you want, what does it matter if he is pretty or not?


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## micedreamer (Aug 29, 2010)

before i brought the 3 additional firemouth the tank had 3 giant danio, 1 firemouth, 1 bamboo shrimp

the 5 pictures in the first post are before add 3 firemouth those were his color
that one picture i post previous is what he looked like with 3 firemouth
his color are the same just his dorsal fin stays up more often

so that is why i think he is a lucky find and i want to find a counter part for it and not get a complete new pair


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## AnnaFish (Aug 9, 2006)

I had some giant danios once. They actually have some very nice coloration after a while. But I'm put off by how much they move around!

Neon tetras can be weak. Cardinals, though they look the same, seem to be hardier.

I am a huge fan of cherry barbs.

Your firemouths might dig them up, but a hefty amount of fake plants might help you out more than you would think. (breaks up line of sight pretty well.)

You could probably go with whatever smaller dither fish you like best, but if they are 1.5 inches or smaller, don't let those firemouths go hungry or they will be a snack.

Like I said, plants help. Fake, firemouth proof plants.

Also, taking a second look at your pictures, do you only have pvc pipes in there?

Some rockwork, driftwood, plants, clay pots, etc might really help break up the aggression. Out of sight, out of mind.

EDIT:

Your black sand is pretty hip, btw.


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## micedreamer (Aug 29, 2010)

reread the last post i made i edit according to the question you had in your previous post

and in the tank i got a pvc pipe, 2 clay pots, and a big coconut house thing
I'm planning to change it to rock work when i'm finish with the fishes


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## AnnaFish (Aug 9, 2006)

Hmm. Well, I'd still say you need to get a lot more cover in there before you turn out the lights and give them 8 hours to stress each other out.

It sounds silly, but I'd put a bunch of bowls and stuff in there until you can get some rocks, etc.

lol


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## micedreamer (Aug 29, 2010)

as of right now they been stressing each other for more than 2 days now
the three new one are forced to a corner and remain. they barely ate anything. this morning i did what the other guy told me to do. i took everything out and put in the 3 new one, then i fed them first, waited an hour then placed in my old (colorful) one. but it was still the same result, forced to the corner

also, when i added the 3 firemouth i also add 3 additional pvc pipes, but when the thing i did this morning failed i took it out because they weren't sanded yet.


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## AnnaFish (Aug 9, 2006)

Well, do it again but this time throw all of your bowls and cups in there.

I know it sounds ridiculous.

Do it.

lol.


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## micedreamer (Aug 29, 2010)

i don't know..when i did the thing this morning all the fish seemed very stress out..i don't want to keep doing it to them.

i had 7 hideout places for 4 firemouth, but none of the new one went into any of them for 2 days.


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## AnnaFish (Aug 9, 2006)

Your right. I'm sorry. I wouldn't pull them all out and in again in such a short time.

But I am anal retentive and obsessive compulsive and all of my dishes would be in your tank right now.

However, if they have lived for 2 days like this, one more night won't do them in. As long as it is stress and not actually injury.

It's not the number of caves to fish.

The most important chase deterrent is line of site. (In my experience.)

The problem is, you can go out tomorrow and buy a bunch of rocks and plants, but if you still have major aggression, you have made it infinitely more obnoxious to get them out.

Tomorrow, I recommend buying a tank divider. Maybe you can even find an opaque one so he won't fight at them over the plexi glass.

Then you can relax a little more while you decide what to do.

I have gotten my dividers by going to lowe's and having them cut a plexi glass sheet to the right dimensions (make sure you measure the INSIDE of the tank). You can get frosted plexi glass that will keep them from seeing each other.


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## micedreamer (Aug 29, 2010)

i only need 1 question answered to make my decision.

would keeping one by itself be as happy and healthy as a pair in a tank?

the only reason i wanted a pair for it is because i wanted it to be as healthy as it can be.
i really won't mind keeping one of these beautiful fishes, i would rather prefer keeping one, i just want it to be as healthy as it can be =]

can anybody with experience or great knowledge on cichlid help me answer this question. thanks


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## AnnaFish (Aug 9, 2006)

> would keeping one by itself be as happy and healthy as a pair in a tank?


What you are referring to is a wet pet.

And yes.

That fish would be totally stoked to be the top dog in your tank.

How does he treat the danios (best answer is -- not at all).


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## micedreamer (Aug 29, 2010)

the danio and firemouth don't bother each other they stay in there level. firemouth never goes up and danio never go down, but i still think giant danio are plain and want something more appealing


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## AnnaFish (Aug 9, 2006)

I only asked to gauge how aggressive he was to other species. Ask at your LFS for another top swimmer you might like better.

Any kind of barb seems good but they are more of an all level fish. Do you like tiger barbs?


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## micedreamer (Aug 29, 2010)

yea but aren't they fin nippers?


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## AnnaFish (Aug 9, 2006)

They mostly go after eachother, which is why they have to be in a school. The reason I mention them is that they are spunky, to say the least, and might fare well against any FM advances. My personal favorite, however, is the cherry barb.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Sorry...I misunderstood, usually there is size difference involved. 
If you don't like giant danios, look at Preacox Rainbowfish (dwarf neon rainbow), or maybe even swordails. Gouramis (one of the 3-spot variants) might also work.


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## micedreamer (Aug 29, 2010)

Are gourami a top level or all levels? If they go the middle or bottom I think the firemouth will attack them.

Also how many can I get if i just keep 1 firemouth and gourami? Do they have to be in groups?

its a 36gallon bowfront


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## AnnaFish (Aug 9, 2006)

Guaramis are pretty top happy, the firemouth will probably keep them up there too. You could probably get 4 or so of a 3 spot kind but eventually they and the firemouth will outgrow that tank.

I'm not an expert on Guaramis (or anything).. I had 6 dwarfs one but they each died slow mysterious wussy deaths.


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## micedreamer (Aug 29, 2010)

i though u can keep a firemouth in a 20 gallon and a pair in a 29 gallon.


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## AnnaFish (Aug 9, 2006)

Well, you'll be fine for a while. But the firemouth will eventually be 6 inches. I don't know if the tank is long enough for it at that point.

Maybe someone more familiar with firemouths can answer this.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

I breed and keep mine in 29's


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## AnnaFish (Aug 9, 2006)

If TFG says it, it must be true.

Sorry, I have never had a firemouth and I have never had a tank smaller than 55 gallons (that wasn't a desk tank with a betta in it).


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

I only share my experiences. I also keep them in a 1200....


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## AnnaFish (Aug 9, 2006)

Hehe. Which is why I say -- the word of TFG is as good as gold.

You have at least 1200 times more experiences than the rest of us! lol


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## micedreamer (Aug 29, 2010)

When sources tells me that firemouth are monogamous and has 1 partner. What happens if the other partner dies...Will it pair with another firemouth or stay alone?


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

In cichlid terms, monogamous only means staying with one partner through one breeding cycle, as opposed to having multiple females at the same time. They aren't monogamous in the way wolves are.


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## micedreamer (Aug 29, 2010)

also since the firemouth i had right now only attacks other firemouth..i'll keep him alone in the tank with dither

When he get to 4-6 inches can it still pair off even though it has spend most of its time alone or will he get too aggressive by then?


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

dwarfpike said:


> In cichlid terms, monogamous only means staying with one partner through one breeding cycle, as opposed to having multiple females at the same time. They aren't monogamous in the way wolves are.


Exactly...


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