# Best way add initial fish. All at once or in groups?



## scubacrazy123 (Jan 5, 2015)

Hi all.
I have another thread on the go asking advice on a first setup for Mbuna.
On that thread I have a few ideas about WHAT to stock, but my question is HOW to stock.
In a sumped 48 x 18 x 24 " tank newly cycled how do I add my initial stock.
Species by species, all at once, or a couple at a a time.
My other thread is here:

viewforum.php?f=9

Your help is appreciated.

Thanks.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

How did you cycle the new tank, how long has it been fully cycled and post your test results for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.

Obviously smaller sized fish less than 2" long won't impact a newly cycled tank as much as larger fish will though the number of fish may make an impact.

How many and what size fish are you considering stocking? Usually multiple species can be stocked at the same time if they are smaller juveniles and the water parameters have been stable for at least a week. It is still a good idea to continue with daily monitoring of ammonia and nitrite levels for a couple weeks after stocking.


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## Austinite (Jul 27, 2013)

I usually do the fishless cycling which takes about 6 weeks, so after that I am super anxious to fill it with fish! I prefer to add all the fish at the same time, from one supplier, all juveniles. If I can't get all my fish from one supplier, then I split it up into two separate times to add fish, but usually don't do more than 2 additions. I always add a species together at the same time. I've just had better luck when adding larger groups of fish as opposed to smaller groups at a time.

I then check the water parameters daily and expect some nitrate spikes in the first week or two, lots of water changes to keep parameters in check. I watch parameters like a hawk for the first month, checking almost every day. But that might sound extreme to some.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

My vote is all at once.


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## scubacrazy123 (Jan 5, 2015)

OK, thanks for the replies.
@Deeda - the tank is still cycling, (fishless), and should be ready soon. I won't be adding any living things until it's safe !
As mentioned in my other thread, I'm aiming for 4 groups of 4 species (1M:4F) of the following:

Pseodotropheus Saulosi 5
White labs 5
Metriaclima estherae OB 5
Metriaclima callainos (bright blue) 5

All will be F1 juveniles, and all sourced from a good single source here in UK.
Compatible?

Thanks for the help so far, I'm grateful.


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## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

scubacrazy123 said:


> *Metriaclima estherae OB* 5
> *Metriaclima s (bright blue*) 5


*Metriaclima estherae* OB 5 :-? :-? :-? 
*Metriaclima callainos *(bright blue) 5 :-? :-? :-? ...


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## scubacrazy123 (Jan 5, 2015)

joselepiu said:


> scubacrazy123 said:
> 
> 
> > *Metriaclima estherae OB* 5
> ...


A bit cryptic,

What do you mean? A reply like that is no help to a newcomer to mbuna, like me !
Do you mean they are incompatible, or is there another reason for your reply?


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## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

sorry about that...

the reply was not meant to be for you, more to grab the attention of a more experienced members...

i been told and i have read that we do not supposed to stock two fishes from the same species (metriaclima) like someone already mention it on your other thread...


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

True, you would not want two metriaclima species to avoid aggression and crossbreeding.


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## scubacrazy123 (Jan 5, 2015)

joselepiu said:


> sorry about that...
> 
> the reply was not meant to be for you, more to grab the attention of a more experienced members...
> 
> i been told and i have read that we do not supposed to stock two fishes from the same species (metriaclima) like someone already mention it on your other thread...


No apology needed. I need all the help I can get !! :lol: 
I have now amended my list to :

Pseodotropheus Saulosi 5
White labs 5
Metriaclima estherae OB 5
Pseudotroheus Acei 5

But now I have 2 different types of Pseudotropheus. Grrrrr !
(And I thought marines were confusing)


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## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

scubacrazy123 said:


> But now I have 2 different types of Pseudotropheus. Grrrrr !
> (And I thought marines were confusing)


 :lol: :lol: :lol: ...


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## scubacrazy123 (Jan 5, 2015)

OK, so given the cost constraits of adding 40 fish together to end up with 20, would it be feasible to add half one month, then the remainder 1 month later?
I'm thinking start with the Saulosi and the Acei, 10 of each, then the others the following month.
I was also thinking that I could change the rockscape around when I add the second group to add a bit of confusion into the mix.
Or should I just wait, and add 40 fish in one go?
(This totally goes against what I am used to with marines. In my fish only tank I was adding 1 fish every 2 months !!)


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would add them all at once in any case. But if you split up the groups...make sure you test after adding the second batch so if you get a mini cycle you can address it right away.

I never change my rocks. But what you describe can also work.

You cycled with ammonia, right?

Let's keep all the stocking questions and answers in the other thread, and stick to the "all at once" question for this topic.


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## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

that is been # 1 not finding all the species that i want at the same time from the same vendor with good quality and recommendations?...
:fish:   :x :x :roll: :roll: :? :? :fish:


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

Are you buying all the fish as juvies or adults?

If you are buying all juvies I say just add them all at once. I think when they grow up together there is a reduced change of aggression when they mature. This might be totally wrong and may not apply to the more aggressive species, but I think with some species its true.

If you are buying all sexed adults I still think you should add them all at once or at least within a few days. This is so the fish in the tank don't have time to establish territories and won't pick on the new additions. To be honest I had no problems at all adding 5 fish to a fully established tank of adults but again I think its species dependent.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Fish do not get along better if they grow up together. We tend to try to give animals human qualities that just don't really exist. Add all the juvies at once if you can get them at the same time


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## scubacrazy123 (Jan 5, 2015)

Yes, I will be adding them all as juveniles. I just need to find someone whi has them all ready at the same time.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> Fish do not get along better if they grow up together. We tend to try to give animals human qualities that just don't really exist. Add all the juvies at once if you can get them at the same time


You might be right, I don't know. But I do know that I have several male rusties in my tank (I think 3, possibly 4, out of 6 total). Despite having this ratio I've never had aggression problems, at all. I'm not 100% sure of this ratio but I do know that in a year they have only bred once. Plus 4 of them show color. So its likely that I have more males than females. If you were to add 6 fully mature rusties into a new tank, 4m and 2f, do you really think there wouldn't be any aggression issues? Maybe its just the species... :-?


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Rusties are a more mild species. But, if you're still unsure whether they are male or female, then I'm willing to venture a guess that they're probably not fully matured yet and would be a good indication of why you haven't had any aggression problems.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Don't want to leave caldwelldaniel out there alone...I too believed the advice when I was a newbie that fish that grow up together get along better as adults.

I have not found this to be true...as adults fish display their true nature with regard to tankmates...no special "love" for the ones they grew up with.


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## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> We tend to try to give animals human qualities that just don't really exist. Add all the juvies at once if you can get them at the same time


maybe is just coincidence maybe not but, i do believe that at the very least sometimes it is possible, other wise can you explain how can a puppy and a kitten that grow together they do not fight when adults? :-? :-? :-? 
as many many other examples...


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I specifically said that fish don't get along that way in the first sentence and the one you're referring to is just a generalization that people tend to give human characteristics to animals in an attempt to better relate to their behavior, it's a psychological thing... Mammals are on a completely different level of brain development and some are capable of emotion, whereas fish are not.


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## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> it's a psychological thing... Mammals are on a completely different level of brain development and some are capable of emotion.


i think it might also be an instinct thing, where like when you grow use to something...
vs when something it is new...

obviously i might be wrong...


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

But there is also the fact that cichlids are known for harassing new additions to the tank. To be honest I didn't experience this at all but I know a lot of other people do. How do you explain this behavior? Perhaps it is because they don't want some newbie invading their territory but, then again, maybe its just because they are new. I don't think anyone can be sure tbh.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I was not talking about adding new fish.

If you raise all the fish together so that they will get along as adults, but then they don't and the adults fight just as if they were NOT raised together, does that not sort of disprove the theory that it's better to raise them together to manage aggression?


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> I was not talking about adding new fish.
> 
> If you raise all the fish together so that they will get along as adults, but then they don't and the adults fight just as if they were NOT raised together, does that not sort of disprove the theory that it's better to raise them together to manage aggression?


Not necessarily because there are different degrees of fighting. How often do they fight, how long does it last, does anyone end up injured or dead as a result? Would two fish that have been together for a year and grew up together really fight as often or as seriously as two adult males just put together in a new tank? I think the real answer is who knows. It would be an interesting experiment actually but I'm not sure it could even be done with 100% verifiable results since you would have to use different fish.


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## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

gillmanjr said:


> I think the real answer is who knows. It would be an interesting experiment actually but I'm not sure it could even be done with 100% verifiable results since you would have to use different fish.


+1...


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Just reporting my experience over 10 years with 4-7 tanks and 100s of fish. Most often I grow out juveniles. More often the fish behave according to their profiles when mature whether they have grown up together or not. Your mileage may vary.

As to how often/how long/how severe? Enough so that I have to make adjustments to the tank when trying a grow-out combo that was borderline for an aggression issue. A pattern has formed...at least for me.


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

Adding fish all at once particularly juveniles establishes a pecking order. Once those fish are mature and wanting to breed all bets are off. It nature's way. Only the fittest survive and procreate.
Fish are not mammals. They are dumb as a fence post and know survival of the species only. 
Any statement to the contrary is b's. Been keeping/breeding fish for 34 plus years and have never had a tank stay harmonious without intervention and close attention to species stocking. 
I can slow down aggression by stopping my regular water changes, lowering temp and generally neglecting them.
I found this out when I had kids and no time.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I'll go ahead and add to debunking the idea that fish growing up together somehow makes them less likely to kill each other. I've had peacocks, haps, Mbuna, SA, CA, native species etc... I've never, with any species had them all get along like the Brady Bunch just because they grew up together. I've had fish that lived together for years turn on each other and found the loser floating with its face eaten off the next day. Fish do not get sentimental nor do they care for each other, this isn't Finding Nemo or some Disney movie. Cyphound is right, when fish grow up together there's a pecking order established and when new fish are introduced, they are not part of that order and that is the reason why there is increased aggression towards newcomers. 100% NOT because they are all pals since they grew up together..


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## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

...


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## scubacrazy123 (Jan 5, 2015)

So basically, there is going to be aggression at some point, whether I add them all together, or in 2 halves, 1 month apart !!  

On a serious note, it may be a bit tricky to get all the juveniles at the same time, so it might need to be half and half anyway.
My tank is still cycling, but it won't be long before stocking.
I'm looking for breeders now in the UK for sources. 
If anyone has any contacts for breeders etc, a PM would be gratefully received. (Hope that isn;t breaking any rules, I don't want to have to go to the naughty step !!)

Thanks for the advice and the interesting discussion to all of you.


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## beast666 (Dec 6, 2017)

When I first started with rift lake cichlids I cycled with ammonia and put the lot in all at once (and held my breath, crossed fingers etc.) but everything worked out fine. As advised, check your water chemistry daily and be prepared for loads of water changes. All my fish were juveniles.

I tried a restock a few years later, as I had lost a few, gained some through breeding, but my tank was hit by bloat shortly afterwards, and only 4 fish survived.

I have just done a complete restock, and went for juveniles again. I have stocked 22 fish in two groups, about 6 weeks apart. So far all is good.


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## kgrieve (Nov 28, 2017)

i have a similar thread, and i established with DJRansome that a cynotilapia group is a good addition so if you were running out of fish ideas then looking into cynotilapia is a good idea.
more specifically cynotilapia sp hara because the males and females are both attractive.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

OP has two topics going...the other is for stocking species ideas and this is for whether to stock all at once or in groups over a period of months.


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## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> OP has two topics going...the other is for stocking species ideas and this is for whether to stock all at once or in groups over a period of months.


+1...


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## scubacrazy123 (Jan 5, 2015)

DJRansome said:


> OP has two topics going...the other is for stocking species ideas and this is for whether to stock all at once or in groups over a period of months.


This is true of course. I just thought I ought to clarify that my options are:
1. Stock all juveniles together, so 4 species x 10 of each species (to end up with 1M:4F) = 40 juveniles
or 
2. Stock 2 species on month one (20 juveniles) and then the FOLLOWING month the other 2 species.

So, not exactly done over a prolonged period, just over 1 month to spread the cost a bit.

Thanks for all the input, I appreciate it.


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