# 290 Stand Build



## car0linab0y (Aug 10, 2009)

I'm guessing at the size of the tank. Dimensions are 78-1/8"L x 24"D x 36"H with 1" thick acrylic.
1: Should I use 4x4 post, or will 2x4 suffice? Stand will be 34" high with 26" 2x4s between the top and bottom, just wondering about the actual 34" posts that'll be inside of the boxed portions.
2: Should I use screws, nails, or bolts? If screws, should I pre-drill?


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## car0linab0y (Aug 10, 2009)

Ok, as for question #1, I decided to go ahead and do 4x4s. Better safe than sorry. Any input on question #2 though?


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## lilscoots (Mar 13, 2012)

if the top frame is not sitting on top of the posts I would use bolts (but i would not build a stand like that for a tank that size). If the top frame is sitting on top of vertical 2x4's and the 4x4 is inside those, then i would use screws. I pre-drill any holes at the ends of boards, it takes 10 seconds and prevents splitting and having to cut another board.


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## car0linab0y (Aug 10, 2009)

lilscoots said:


> if the top frame is not sitting on top of the posts I would use bolts (but i would not build a stand like that for a tank that size). If the top frame is sitting on top of vertical 2x4's and the 4x4 is inside those, then i would use screws. I pre-drill any holes at the ends of boards, it takes 10 seconds and prevents splitting and having to cut another board.


The 4x4's will be inside with the top frame sitting on the 2x4's outside. What are your thoughts on drywall screws? Or would the finer thread on wood screws be better?


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## DanniGirl (Jan 25, 2007)

Wood screws are designed and manufactured to pull wood together. Drywall screws are simply designed for drywall applications only. Deck screws are stronger than drywall screws, but are not deigned for the intended application.

Simple test. Use your drill gun and drive your drywall screw (or a deck screw) into your 4x4. Notice how the head sheers off; there is no strength.

Use wood screws.


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## lilscoots (Mar 13, 2012)

I agree, wood screws.


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## matthew1884 (Jul 24, 2009)

I built a stand for my 265 gal tank. I used 2x4's with 3/8 carriage bolts and deck screws on the vertical pieces. It held the tank just fine. I think 4x4's are overkill and I have heard of people having issues with a 4x4 warping and twisting.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Not to rain on anyone's parade & all of this is subjective anyway but all of my stands & racks in my fish room were built using sheet rock screws.

It really is meaningless if the stand is built properly to where the weight is being forced down on the wooden members & to the floor evenly. There should be very little loading (if at all) on the screw itself.

Here is a shot of my 180 frame. The screws are only aiding in preventing torquing of the stand while being moved. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## DanniGirl (Jan 25, 2007)

No worries, you're not raining on anyone's parade. Can it be done? Sure it can be done. Would I do it? No. 
But, it seems kind of ridiculous to construct a stand out of 4 x 4's and then use drywall screws to finish it off.


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## car0linab0y (Aug 10, 2009)

I don't know these things, that's why I ask.


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## DanniGirl (Jan 25, 2007)

That's ok, that's what we're all here for; to offer advice and share experiences.

If it was my stand, I would use wood screws. Honestly, the 2 x 4's will suffice but there's nothing wrong with overbuilding. Are you working off a plan?


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## car0linab0y (Aug 10, 2009)

Going pretty much off the stand I had custom built for my 125g. The 125g stand only has 3 posts on the back side, 2 in the front, and a single center brace across the top. This one will have 8 posts and 8 braces across the top. Metal brackets will be added where possible.


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## DanniGirl (Jan 25, 2007)

Sounds like you have a good plan. You won't need as many as 8 4 x 4's but it's your stand. If you're really concerned about the screws, you can always use bolts.


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## car0linab0y (Aug 10, 2009)

I guess 2x4's will suffice, since the outer 2x4's will actually be the ones supporting the load.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

I don't know the specs but the vertical compression strength of a 2x4 is a ridiculously high number. Much higher than the weight of 300 gallons of water.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over that.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

DanniGirl said:


> No worries, you're not raining on anyone's parade. Can it be done? Sure it can be done. Would I do it? No.
> But, it seems kind of ridiculous to construct a stand out of 4 x 4's and then use drywall screws to finish it off.


Not sure why it is seems ridiculous. No more ridiculous than assuming that sheet rock screws aren't satisfactory to fasten two pieces of wood together.


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## DanniGirl (Jan 25, 2007)

As I said before, drywall screws are made for drywall. Sure, they can fasten two pieces of wood together. So can duct tape and string.
You're missing the point. They're building a stand for stout. They're using quality lumber. Why save a few pennies on drywall screws? Make the stand stout throughout. Don't scrimp on the fasteners.

Bottom line, they're using quality lumber, it only makes sense that they quality fasteners. Build a good, solid stand from start to finish, that you can be proud of from start to finish.

Forgot to mention, drywall screws will rust and leave a rust stain. If you want to save money, at least use deck screws; they're designed to get wet repeatedly without staining lumber. Now if you really want to save money and make it stronger than bolts, use wood glue and pin it with dowels. This is another construction technique; it's similar to a glulam.

I think most people know where I'm coming from. We won't go into recommended construction methods and techniques. This conversation is getting ridiculous, I didn't think I'd have to go this far. You can have the last word, I'm done.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

DanniGirl said:


> As I said before, drywall screws are made for drywall. Sure, they can fasten two pieces of wood together. So can duct tape and string.
> You're missing the point. They're building a stand for stout. They're using quality lumber. Why save a few pennies on drywall screws? Make the stand stout throughout. Don't scrimp on the fasteners.
> 
> Bottom line, they're using quality lumber, it only makes sense that they quality fasteners. Build a good, solid stand from start to finish, that you can be proud of from start to finish.
> ...


Comparing sheet rock screws effectiveness to that of duct tape & wood is what is ridiculous. The comparison is absurd & I explained the context.

You mods seem to think you are the authority on everything. On this one, you are just flat wrong. Heaven forbid you guys be questioned on anything. This is the typical response from most of you guys.

Use whatever you like but to suggest that sheet rock screws should not be used is just not accurate.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Oh... Wood screws absolutely will rust.

Assuming the sheet rock screws are to be countersunk and covered with a wood filler + stain & a sealer, that is a non issue.

But you knew that.


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## car0linab0y (Aug 10, 2009)

The drywall vs wood screw question was more about the thread difference, I didn't know they cost any different. I just don't want CREAT weakness in the wood by tearing it up with whatever screw I go with.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

car0linab0y said:


> The drywall vs wood screw question was more about the thread difference, I didn't know they cost any different. I just don't want CREAT weakness in the wood by tearing it up with whatever screw I go with.


You know my opinion. You will have much less problems with the head stripping if you use phillips head sheet rock screws
Not nearly as soft as wood or even machine screws for that matter.

They are also sold in varying degrees of thread coarseness. Justifiable concern.


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## car0linab0y (Aug 10, 2009)

cantrell00 said:


> car0linab0y said:
> 
> 
> > The drywall vs wood screw question was more about the thread difference, I didn't know they cost any different. I just don't want CREAT weakness in the wood by tearing it up with whatever screw I go with.
> ...


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## DanniGirl (Jan 25, 2007)

car0linab0y said:


> The drywall vs wood screw question was more about the thread difference, I didn't know they cost any different. I just don't want CREAT weakness in the wood by tearing it up with whatever screw I go with.


As long as you pre-drill the holes, you'll be fine.


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## austings (May 12, 2012)

I wouldn't use sheet rock screws. But, that's just me. They're meant for drywall. . Too each their own I guess. I don't want to imagine what the damage would be if 290 gallons of water ended up on the floor.


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## car0linab0y (Aug 10, 2009)

So fine thread or coarse?


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## matthew1884 (Jul 24, 2009)

Coarse, fine can easily be pulled out of the wood.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Not trying to stir the pot, honest, but I got curious as to why drywall screws or ok or are not ok to use for woodworking. I've seen them used and have used them myself for small projects.

The first article explains some cons to using drywall screws in wood:
http://www.familyhandyman.com/DIY-Proje ... -All#step1

This article explains that they're ok for joining pieces of wood, but that the first piece should have a hole drilled first
http://www.ronhazelton.com/tips/why_a_c ... ws_in_wood

A youtube video of drywall heads snapping. Bear in mind, that he's screwing into hard maple:





An article covering the pros and cons as well as examples of when to use and when not to:
http://www.woodbin.com/misc/drywall_screws.htm

Forum discussion at canadianwoodworking.com
http://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/sh ... l-Screws...


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

If the stand is built correctly it won't matter which screws you use, I used nails exclusively on my stand. In a proper build the fasteners are only there to hold the structural members in place, and aren't responsible for any shear forces which could cause them to fail. I recommend using a good wood glue for all contact surfaces.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

b3w4r3 said:


> If the stand is built correctly it won't matter which screws you use, I used nails exclusively on my stand. In a proper build the fasteners are only there to hold the structural members in place, and aren't responsible for any shear forces which could cause them to fail. I recommend using a good wood glue for all contact surfaces.


Thanks.

Much better explanation than mine.


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

If the stand is built where to load is centered over the vertical supports(compression strength), you can basically fasten the wood together with nails, drywall screws, etc. But, that said, wood is wood and every piece will have its own charecteristics. If there is any tendency for one of the vertical supports to want to bow slightly lengthwise, putting strain on the mechanical joint, I'd want to have the fastener with better holding strength keeping it together. In that respect, with the debate between drywall screws, wood screws, and deck screws, I'd go with 2-1/4" exterior deck screws if it were mine.


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## car0linab0y (Aug 10, 2009)

DrgRcr said:


> If the stand is built where to load is centered over the vertical supports(compression strength), you can basically fasten the wood together with nails, drywall screws, etc. But, that said, wood is wood and every piece will have its own charecteristics. If there is any tendency for one of the vertical supports to want to bow slightly lengthwise, putting strain on the mechanical joint, I'd want to have the fastener with better holding strength keeping it together. In that respect, with the debate between drywall screws, wood screws, and deck screws, I'd go with 2-1/4" exterior deck screws if it were mine.


Why 2-1/4" as opposed to 2-1/2", 3", or 3-1/2"? 1/4" into the back piece of wood doesn't seem like a lot of holding strength to me.


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

I'm thinking in terms of 2x4, which is 1-1/2x3-1/2". The length of the fastener would be determined by the thickness you are going all the way through, and the desired depth of penetration into the second piece(usually half way).


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## car0linab0y (Aug 10, 2009)

DrgRcr said:


> I'm thinking in terms of 2x4, which is 1-1/2x3-1/2". The length of the fastener would be determined by the thickness you are going all the way through, and the desired depth of penetration into the second piece(usually half way).


If that's the case, I'm gonna have to adjust a few lengths to compensate. Shady that they would call them 2x4 if they're 1/2" smaller each way.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

They start out with a 2x4 and plain the board to smooth the surface and round the edges.

Lumber used to be only rough cut, hence the name 2 x 4.

1/4 " difference in thickness. 1/2" in width. The intent is not to mislabel for the sake of screwing someone over.

Have you ever built anything before. Not being rude, just curious. Lots of weight on this stand. You may want to reconsider DIY if inexperienced.


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## DanniGirl (Jan 25, 2007)

*car0linab0y*,

You don't need prior construction experience to build a stand. I have three suggestions for you. Suggestion one, talk with the individual who constructed your 125 gallon stand and get their take on your new stand (I would expect they would do it for free). Suggestion two, sketch up the frame of the 125 gallon stand, take the sketch to your local lumber supply store and chat with one of the contractors. Have them review your stand for their opinion/suggestions (they may suggest to add another pillar or two for support). Thirdly, post your sketch on the forum. I'm sure a number of people would be happy to give you good advice.

Quite a few people have built their stands with no prior construction experience. The advantage you have, is your custom stand you can replicate (with modifications). I'm sure your capable of using hand tools and that's all that's required to build a stand. Power tools are nice and make it go much quicker, but are not required. It's not difficult, you can do it, it just takes time. Likewise, it's something you can take a lot of pride in because you built it yourself.

Go for it! I, cantrell00 and others are anxious to see sketches of your plans. :thumb:


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

DanniGirl said:


> *car0linab0y*,
> 
> You don't need prior construction experience to build a stand. I have three suggestions for you. Suggestion one, talk with the individual who constructed your 125 gallon stand and get their take on your new stand (I would expect they would do it for free). Suggestion two, sketch up the frame of the 125 gallon stand, take the sketch to your local lumber supply store and chat with one of the contractors. Have them review your stand for their opinion/suggestions (they may suggest to add another pillar or two for support). Thirdly, post your sketch on the forum. I'm sure a number of people would be happy to give you good advice.
> 
> ...


I agree overall.

My only concern is that there is a litttle more to it than just the sketch.

Google Sketch Up in a indispensable tool that can help you this. It is also free.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

cantrell00 said:


> Google Sketch Up in a indispensable tool that can help you this. It is also free.


+1,000,000. My stand build would have taken so much longer, if at all, without it.


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## Steve C (Oct 9, 2011)

I used google sketch up to help draw up a basic design for my first stand on my 55g peacock tank. Maybe it's just me but I found it an extremely difficult program to try to get the hang of using  or maybe I'm just gettin' old lol.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

There is a learning curve, not too steep in my opinion. I played around with it for a day I think before doing any serious designing. Lots of tutorials online as well:
http://support.google.com/sketchup/bin/ ... swer=36207


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Took me a little bit to get the hang of it but once it started to click, it became a breeze.


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## Steve C (Oct 9, 2011)

Yeah don't get me wrong I think it's a great tool to have, especially for free. I just had a real hard time trying to learn it and actually gave up after a few hours because I got so frustrated :lol:


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## lilscoots (Mar 13, 2012)

sketchup can be annoying, but it does help show you where your measurements might not be right in your pencil sketches. And as for the OP designing and building the stand, as long as you remember that the 2x4 is really 1.5x3.5 and make your measurements accordingly, it's pretty easy.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

lilscoots said:


> sketchup can be annoying, but it does help show you where your measurements might not be right in your pencil sketches. And as for the OP designing and building the stand, as long as you remember that the 2x4 is really 1.5x3.5 and make your measurements accordingly, it's pretty easy.


1.75 x 3.5


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

cantrell00 said:


> lilscoots said:
> 
> 
> > sketchup can be annoying, but it does help show you where your measurements might not be right in your pencil sketches. And as for the OP designing and building the stand, as long as you remember that the 2x4 is really 1.5x3.5 and make your measurements accordingly, it's pretty easy.
> ...


Actually he is right it's 1.5 x 3.5" for 2x4. All 2x material is milled 1/2 inch whether it be 2x12, 10, 8, or 6. 1x on the other hand is only milled 1/4 inch though, making a 1x4 - 3/4x3.5 We even get 2x8 and larger sizes that that are anywhere from 1.5 x 7 1/4 to 7 1/2.


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## lilscoots (Mar 13, 2012)

yeah, it varies....in the past I designed with 1.75 as the width, but have been finding the dimensions are much closer to 1.5 now...


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## chiroken (Sep 25, 2007)

2x4's around here are 1.5 x 3.5, 2x6's are 1.5 x 5.5, 1x4's are 3/4 x 3.5. As mentioned, rough lumber is full dimension. If you are in doubt just go to your lumber yard to confirm prior to hours of meticulous planning only to find you have to redo all the lengths!

I'd use wood screws, I'd pre-drill end pieces and I'd use wood glue on all connecting pieces. Actually, I'd glue, clamp, screw, release clamp and move on to the next one. Be sure you are carrying the load to the floor and not just resting vertical 2x4's ontop of a base. Those can shift/sheer.

Measure twice, cut once


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Excuse my error on the 2X4 dimensions. I had 1" material (3/4" thickness) stuck in my head.


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## brian24 (Jan 23, 2013)

Constructing different kind of stuff like that always reminds me of my job before in a construction service in Finland well those kind of stuff are really easy thing to do it just a matter of thinking and if you have a material it will surely look good just everyone's did here they are great one.


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