# Demasoni death



## Jnm230 (May 30, 2016)

Started with 20 down to 10


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

What happened?


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## Jnm230 (May 30, 2016)

There was an ich problem but none of the labs died does this mean the extra males were killed my demasoni are about 2" long is that the size the males kill each other at


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## ha77 (Dec 8, 2016)

Have you tested your water yet.....


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

No you can't determine gender based on size, at least not at 2".

When did you get them?


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## Jnm230 (May 30, 2016)

My water is perfect my heater got unplugged for a couple days I've had them for about a month


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## Jnm230 (May 30, 2016)

Finally got everything thing under control with ich and water conditions am I supposed to brin numbers back up to 20 in confused maybe the deaths are male and now my ratios are just right


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You always want at least 12 demasoni...and that would be for a tank <= 55G. So with ten you can't really have a good ratio. I would replace them.


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## Jnm230 (May 30, 2016)

Buy ten more?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You had decided on 20 for a reason, right? Or you may want to rehome the remaining 10 and replace the species with something more sturdy?

You are stocking a 48x18 rectangle?


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## Jnm230 (May 30, 2016)

I want a happy demasoni colony they look so cool one is holding right now I will do whatever it tanks to make a successful demasoni lab tank do I not have enough caves?


http://imgur.com/MSB4x


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

They might have enough caves in that tank. But I thought you said it was ich that killed them?


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## Jnm230 (May 30, 2016)

Someone here said ich wasn't so serious to Mbuna


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## ha77 (Dec 8, 2016)

Jnm230 said:


> Someone here said ich wasn't so serious to Mbuna


Ich can be deadly if not properly treated. Did you raise temp, salts etc?


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## Jnm230 (May 30, 2016)

Yes I used medicine and raised temp


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## Jnm230 (May 30, 2016)

I will be adding 9 more demasoni


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Jnm230 said:


> I will be adding 9 more demasoni


I hope that goes well for you. 
As well as the 12 minimum rule there is also a train of thought that adding or subtracting to the colony can cause problems (??).
Demasoni are definitely fickle. We have threads where people start out with 18-20 and end up with none!
My own perspective is that multiple males are usually at the heart of Demasoni problems.
I am new to Demasoni and have only had them for just over 2 years. In this time I have sort of noted some differences between the sexes. Demasoni are prolific and females soon hold so it easy to confirm :lol: But with large numbers in a tank it could be difficult to keep track of who's who. In general, the females are usually smaller. There usually a little larger in the head in comparison to the body giving them a somewhat more triangular shape. Males more elongated. Also the pectoral fins, I have yet to see a male with stubby pectoral fins like some females. They all can vary somewhat but so far all those with very short and stubby pectoral fins are female. Even coloration differs somewhat. A female was the largest and dominant Demasoni in my 90 gal. Her color was never as bright and vibrant as a dominant male. Now that I moved 2 males over from another tank, 3 females are now confirmed as I witnessed the act and are now holding. Also behaviour, as males can stake territory from each other and become serious rivals. But these are all generalizations, not iron clad laws.


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## ha77 (Dec 8, 2016)

BC in SK said:


> Jnm230 said:
> 
> 
> > I will be adding 9 more demasoni
> ...


 Good tips! I will have to try and remember these.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

High temp is used with salt...but not every ich medicine (other than salt) requires heat. It takes 3 weeks or more to cure ich.

Let's check our focus. Are you trying to find out why they died before you replace them (good idea)?

Or if you know and it's been 4 weeks...and you still want demasoni...why would you not replace them?


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## Jnm230 (May 30, 2016)

Usually when I have a new tank I use water from old tank and put in new tank took a while to get money together for all the demasoni I had some electrical problems on the specific circuit that stopped the filter here and the soon after I assume my cycled water crashed when I figured out the problem I took out half the bad water and put the rest in from a good cycled tank and the tank started acting fine again big mess up cost me about 100$ in fish I assume this is why they died just had a hope that they really died from male aggression and I was left with dead males and a good ratio but I'm starting to think it was just poor water. What do you think ransom sound possible


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The water does not contain the beneficial bacteria...that is in the filter media and substrate...some on surfaces of rocks and glass as well.

If the fish had white spots...then I would say ich. The fact that the water got cold supported this theory...were the fish exposed to ich in the last 60 days?

If the water was poor you would know from the test results. It takes more than a few days for the water to get dirty. Were the filters off? Do you think the beneficial bacteria died off and you are having a mini-cycle now? What are your test results for pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?

When they die of aggression, there are signs. The victim fish lurks under the surface or behind filter intakes or heaters. Even though they have perfectly good hiding places, when chased enough they give up and go to these places. Then he/she stops eating. Then he/she dies. It takes many days. And usually it would be one-two at a time...not 10 all at once.

I've never had a demasoni outright attach/kill another demasoni or another fish. Constant harassment leading to death? Absolutely.

I usually remove the victim fish just because it is easier. Also when establishing a colony they are often extra males. But if you have a terror in the tank you could always remove the aggressor.

BC in SK I hope you are right. I've been getting some fish with poor barring from vendors lately, but I can't take out the bad ones and keep up the size of the colony. So I'm starting another tank just for spawning with just one nice male and as many females as I can find. I know I have at least 2 females with good bars and some with terrible bars. I hope I can get two clutches from the "good" females before they kill each other in the small group. I'm raising a batch of fry now, but I think I have some poor barring in the fry so IDK how helpful this batch will be.


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## jwm2k3 (Oct 14, 2016)

Im betting it was ammonia poisoning due to the tank not being 'cycled'.

Using water from an established tank will get you nowhere.

After 30 years keeping fish, theres no shortcut to cycling a tank. It takes 6 weeks. AND, during that 6 weeks the tank needs to be fed some kind of ammonia to grow the beneficial bacteria. And I honestly believe a tank is not stable, bacteria-wise, for approx 6 months.

Jnm230, you have been asked about the water parameters multiple times. Your answer has been vague and dismissing each time. Hey, some people dont test their water. Im betting you have not either. Thats ok, but if you dont, just slow down, let the tank stabilize before you condemn more fish to a certian death.

Either way, going too fast, adding more fish before you are 100% sure why a bunch died, is just gonna lead you to more fish death and eventually you will get discouraged and give up on the hobby.

Have patience, slow down and let the bacteria cycle happen naturally. Adding chemicals is not the answer to a fast cycle. There is no such thing as a fast cycle, believe me.

Good luck, I hope for the sake of the fish, your tank works out well.


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## Jnm230 (May 30, 2016)

They died slow enough I guess maybe within a month I have a fish in the corner as we speak I'll take him back the fish had white spots. The water is fine now I used cycled water from my old tank I'm worried that the fish died of poor quality now that everything is settled the are going to act normal and with the low numbers I'll be left with one fish


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Not trying to be a pain...but no one likes to lose fish. There is no such thing as cycled water. What are your test results for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate now?

The 10 demasoni that died had the white raised spots of ich? You medicated them and they have been free of spots for 3 weeks?


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## Jnm230 (May 30, 2016)

My water is very good at the moment ich free for 2 weeks or so all levels good


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

DJRansome said:


> *The water does not contain the beneficial bacteria*...that is in the filter media and substrate...some on surfaces of rocks and glass as well.


While the above statement might be _somewhat true_ on a general basis (in that the water does not contain vast amounts of beneficial bacteria ... as compared to the surfaces that such bacteria colonize), I'm not sure it is entirely accurate ... for several reasons.

First off, at least some species are motile (meaning they can move or swim)

Given that it's generally agreed that such bacteria cannot survive when dry, then how do they arrive in the tank ?

And if the water does not contain any beneficial bacteria, then where do such bacteria come from ?

Surely not the proverbial BB Fairy, who visits surreptitiously in night ...


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

wryan said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> > *The water does not contain the beneficial bacteria*...that is in the filter media and substrate...some on surfaces of rocks and glass as well.
> ...


Sort of off topic, but for all intents and purposes I believe, DJRansome's statement is essentially correct. The reality is aquarium water won't help the cycle anymore then declorinated tap water.


wryan said:


> Given that it's generally agreed that such bacteria cannot survive when dry, then how do they arrive in the tank ?


Who agrees with that? When dry, it's not active, but some of it survives in a different state.


wryan said:


> And if the water does not contain any beneficial bacteria, then where do such bacteria come from ?


It is a soil microorganism. It could originate from dust particles in the air, or dust particles on anything.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

BC in SK said:


> wryan said:
> 
> 
> > DJRansome said:
> ...


I thought it was relevant ... given statements made in the context of the discussion.



BC in SK said:


> ... but for all intents and purposes I believe, DJRansome's statement is essentially correct.


In a general sense, yes ... and I stated as much.

They tend to clump and adhere to surfaces, evidently in vast amounts ... therefore there would be very few in water, comparatively speaking. That doesn't mean there are none (in water)



BC in SK said:


> The reality is aquarium water won't help the cycle anymore then declorinated tap water.


I can't attest to that either way (does or doesn't) ... since I haven't actually tested the premise.



BC in SK said:


> wryan said:
> 
> 
> > Given that it's generally agreed that such bacteria cannot survive when dry, then how do they arrive in the tank ?
> ...


I've seen it stated on this forum more than once I believe ... and on at least one occasion by a Moderator.

Further:



> _... "None of the Nitrobacteraceae are able to form spores. They have a complex cytomembrane (cell wall) that is surrounded by a slime matrix. All species have limited tolerance ranges and are individually sensitive to pH, dissolved oxygen levels, salt, temperature, and inhibitory chemicals. Unlike species of heterotrophic bacteria, *they cannot survive any drying process without killing the organism*. In water, they can survive short periods of adverse conditions by utilizing stored materials within the cell. When these materials are depleted, the bacteria die." ..._


Source:

Nitrifying Bacteria Facts



BC in SK said:


> wryan said:
> 
> 
> > And if the water does not contain any beneficial bacteria, then where do such bacteria come from ?
> ...


There are a number of species in the genus.

I have no idea whether all those individual species are capable of existing both in water and out, or whether some of them might have adapted to a specific environment (ie water or soil)


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

I don't dispute that it needs water, whether terrestrial or aquatic. Bacteria is resilient. A tiny amount has to survive in some form otherwise it would die out completely every time soil dries up. 
Circumstantial evidence has shown the aquarist over many decades that cycling a tank with aquarium or decloriated tap water makes no difference.
Sure, it could come out of the tap. But it's in the environment and common to most soil.
I suppose a simple experiment could give an idea whether it comes from the water or already there in the environment. Sterilize the water by running it through UV and then boiling it.....such a tank shouldn't cycle if it really does originate from the water. I'm willing to bet as long as there is ammonia, the bacteria is getting there one way or another.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

To address OP's question...if we don't have test results, we can't agree or disagree as to whether water quality was or is a problem. Also we would need to see how the results change from one water change to the next.

You consider ich cured after you see no white spots for 3 weeks.

Not sure if I am lost or not...I think you are adding 9 demasoni and have no questions at this time?


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## Jnm230 (May 30, 2016)

Okay one more question every time I see a fish swimming in the corner or being harassed I should catch and replace it? I'll add more fish on Saturday


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You can remove the victim or the aggressor...but don't let the problem continue for days and days because the demasoni tend to get bloat and then spread it through the tank.

Do all your fish have thick, food-colored feces and no one has white/clear thready feces?

These Demasoni are a lot of work!


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## Jnm230 (May 30, 2016)

I couldn't tell I looked for a while no irrigalar ferces I put the harassed demasoni in my friendly zebra tank yes this has been difficult so far I'm going to keep trying I feel like taking out all the decorations and hunting down the aggressor but what if I forget what he looks like it easy to scoop the harrassednones right out of the tank they want to leave


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

That's why demasoni are rated among the more difficult mbuna to keep.

Trouble is if you have one crazy male...and remove everyone he harassed, you could end up with just him.

You need to see the normal feces to relax...not just absence of the abnormal ones.


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## Jnm230 (May 30, 2016)

I'll keep a look out man


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