# FISHLESS Cycle recipe question.



## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

ok so i read the article in here and says:
"2nd method. This one is used by probably 99% of hobbyists. Addition of X amount of NH3 drops until Ammonia level of 5ppm is achieved. This X amount of drops has to be added daily until NO2 spike. Afterwards follow up with Â½ X (from previous step) amount of NH3 drops daily until NO2 is 0ppm causing NO3 peak. ~50% water change should follow -> cycled tank"

so yesterday, I started my cycle. and added 4capful of ammonia from Ace hardwarre store. i also had two 6"x7" sponge media from fellow hobbyist which had lots of debris and bacteria in it.

today, my reading read:
Ammonia: 4ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
PH: 8.2
(didnt test nitrate yet-no point)

my tank is 270gal with 120gal sump (1/3rd is filled with 1" bioballs).

Now my question is:
do i keep adding ammonia daily the same amount (4capful) until nitrite shows to go up?
then 1/2 when nitrite is 0ppm?

i just wanna make sure adding same amount wont add too much ammonia at 1st.

I saw someone elses thread and he said he added the 1st amount then waited til ammonia got to 0ppm then added same amount of ammonia daily.

which way is good?
thanks


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

another question:
when i added my tap water yesterday, i added Seachem prime to dechlorinate.

but here it says:
"SeaChem Primeâ„¢ removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Primeâ„¢ converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tankâ€™s biofilter. Primeâ„¢ may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Primeâ„¢ detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them.

will this affect my cycle?


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## remarkosmoc (Oct 19, 2005)

dkreef said:


> another question:
> when i added my tap water yesterday, i added Seachem prime to dechlorinate.
> 
> but here it says:
> ...


that will definitely affect your cycle. You want the bacteria to do the work not the prime. If prime only removed chlorine and chloramine it would be okay, but since it removes ammonia as well it is basically taking away food for your growing bacteria.

In an estabished tank it is essential to use it to protect the fish from chlorine, but don't use it when trying to fishless cycle.


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

man...well i added prime 1st to tap water then ammonia an hour later.
i wont be adding anymore prime cuz i dont need to but does this mean i need to drain water?


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## remarkosmoc (Oct 19, 2005)

No, just don't add any more.


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

thanks tan, 
hey did u read my 1st question tho?
when should i add my second ammonia dose? tonight and daily or wait til ammonia comes down to 0ppm?


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## sbernstecker (Oct 11, 2007)

Adding prime to a cycling tank will not cause you any problems at all. I have used it for years on brand new tanks and I have never had any issues. As far as you question about the ammonia, after 24 hr. take a reading and see what level the ammonia is at and add only enough to get it back to either 3 or 4 ppm. do this every day until your ammonia is zero and your nitrites are zero. You never have to cut it in half. When your levels are zero after a 24 hr period from the last time you added the ammonia you are ready to go. I personally do this for a couple of days to make sure the Bio filter can handle this load. After a few days of making sure your levels are correct do a 50% water change and check you nitrates and if they are good you can add your fish. If the nitrates are to high do another water change and then add your fish. For a tank that has been cycled at 4ppm you can actually add quite a few fish all at the same time. If you don't plan on stocking right away at least with in a day or so you should continue with adding the ammonia. until you are ready to add you fish or you Bio filter will start to die off. After you cycle, keep in mind that if you lightly stock your tank you bio filter will adjust to the load you have in your tank, so if you stock light at first when you do decide to add fish I would do it slowly also.

Good luck


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## mccluggen (Jul 5, 2008)

Just a note on the prime, it does not remove ammonia (as it suggests) it binds it into a less toxic form that doesn't hurt the fish. The bacteria can still access the ammonia as a nutrient, so don't sweat it, it shouldn't slow down your cycle much if at all.


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## remarkosmoc (Oct 19, 2005)

i think it is questionable that it is still there for the bacteria. either way, what is the benefit of using it on a tank with no fish? I would say the fastest cycle is without the prime doing anything to the ammonia. Add some prime after the cycle is complete before adding fish.


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## sbernstecker (Oct 11, 2007)

dkreef said:


> i also had two 6"x7" sponge media from fellow hobbyist which had lots of debris and bacteria in it.


This is the reason I would have used the Prime, The OP stated that he had some Bio Media that was already seeded. The chlorine or chloramines that are added to tap water would have the same negative effect on the bacteria he got from his friend as it would have on existing fish in an established tank. Better safe than sorry :thumb:


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## remarkosmoc (Oct 19, 2005)

i can buy that. too bad all the water conditioners remove not just chlorines but ammonia too.


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

well its 12am now and i just tested my ammonia and its still at 4ppm.
do i wait til it goes down to add more ammonia?


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## sbernstecker (Oct 11, 2007)

Yes, just wait until it drops and just add enough back to get it back up to your target range of 3 or 4 ppm. You won't add in as much as you did the first time. Add in a little and wait about 30 minutes and take a reading and adjust from there.

This is from the Seachem Site "Primeâ„¢ converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tankâ€™s biofilter" As you can see the ammonia is still present and is considered a food source for the bacteria. It doesn't remove it..it just makes it yummy for the bacterias tummy :lol:

One thing you will need is patience.......these things take time.

Good luck and remember be patient. opcorn:


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

today 11:30am result,
ammonia: 2ppm
Nitrite: 1ppm

added 2 more cap ful and will test ammonia in 30 min. (originally added 4capful to get 4ppm)

guys would u say, my nitrification process is going pretty fast?
its been 1.5 days since i started the cycle.


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## sbernstecker (Oct 11, 2007)

Be patient---you're just starting, things will happen in their own time. I know that you are excited and want to get fish in the tank but this is something that you don't want to rush and do it properly. It's just something that takes time.

Good luck,


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## Grumpysmurf (Jun 16, 2008)

I will suggest that you test your Nitrate, and please post this result.

Reason being, I am in a similar stage of cycling, but have had to use a prawn to rot in there instead as I can't get pure ammonia in Australia. I also added a bit of old sponge.

In the few days since I started, my ammonia is now 4 ppm, nitrite 0.0, but nitrate is showing up at 5ppm. I can only guess / hope that the added bacteria has already started doing its job. I think I may have read that there is a possibility of of Nitrite ever showing if there is enough existing bacteria.

One other tip that may be useful which I read, is to increase the temperature to higher than normal. I am using 29 celcius. Reasoning is that bacteria multiplies faster in warmer condition. But be sure to really aerate the surface of your water to get maximum oxygen.


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

i just tested again.
ammonia: 2ppm
Nitrite: 2ppm
Nitrate: 10ppm
I then added ammonia to 4ppm again.

How far am i into the cycle everyone?

i have set my temp at 85 degree F which should speed up bacterial reproduction.

thing is im hoping this cycle will be completed by this sat. my LFS is getting good shipment in.

i did find a LFS that sells Dr Tims one and only. but its $13 for 2oz for 30gallon. my tank is 320gal water volume. would getting even 4oz be worth it to speed it the cycle?
(i dont wanna spend $130)


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## sbernstecker (Oct 11, 2007)

I really doubt that your cycle will finished in a week. But only time will tell


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

well normal cycle without bacteria added takes 10days-2wks to get nitrite spike of 2ppm.
mine took 2days so it may still be very possible to finish cycle by this sat. we shall see.
i will post result again when i get home tonight.

BTW, if my ammonia was set up to 4ppm, then would my nitrite PEAK be at 4ppm?


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## sbernstecker (Oct 11, 2007)

I'm not sure where you got your information but most cycles without the addition of bacteria takes about 30 to 45 days and with bacteria sometimes you can cut out about 1 to 2 weeks. I have never had a tank cycle in less than 3 weeks and than I was using a small amount of established media from a friend. I did have one exception and I had started with a well established filter (the entire filter with all existing filter media) from another tank and the substrate from the same tank. I still had a mini cycle for about 2 weeks.

Good luck if you some how get it to cycle faster than that, my only advise is don't jump the gun and stock too early. You could have more problems in the future than are worth it and you won't understand what is causing it. If you are patient it really does pay off in the long run


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

yes i know normal cycle takes 4-6weeks. i meant it takes 10-14days to get a nitrite spike of 2ppm not the whole cycle period. but mine took 2days to get nitrite of 2ppm. so basically its taking 1/7th the time of normal cycle for me so far.


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## sbernstecker (Oct 11, 2007)

Keep us posted


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

ok so i tested at 7:30pm.
Ammonia: 2ppm
Nitrite: 5ppm
Nitrate: 10ppm

seems that nitrite is really gettin up there but shouldnt my ammonia be zeroing out by now?
what could cause this?

looking at the nitrogen cycle diagram, ammonia should be near 0

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/cycling.php


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## PRSKILLER (May 26, 2008)

I did fishless cycling to my tanks and followed both of these links here as a guideline.
http://aquamaniacs.net/forum/cms_view_a ... php?aid=31

http://www.algone.com/fishless_cycling.php


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

well i just tested ammonia again before i added more ammonia.
it showed ~1.5ppm. i added 2ppm more


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## sbernstecker (Oct 11, 2007)

This isn't rocket science  , just do the procedure as I said in an earlier post and let time do it's thing...


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

still going...

this morning:
ammonia: 1ppm
Nitrite: 5ppm(highest on test color chart)
Nitrate: 5ppm


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## sbernstecker (Oct 11, 2007)

What test kit are you using? I have never seen nitrates go down on their own unless you have a denitrifier or a very heavily planted tank. The only other way that I know of is through water changes and you shouldn't be doing these during a cycle anyway.


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

didnt do water changes. no plants in. not sure why nitrate went down. will post again tonight.


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

well i think my cycle should be done by this sat(maybe even fri).

tested at 8pm today.
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 2ppm
Nitrate: 40ppm

added 4ppm of ammonia again.


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

i have a theory on why my cycle sped up so fast. i think other than the amount of bacterial colony that one provides, the surface area of new biomedia and substrate, rocks also contribute a lot to the speed of cycling.

i have over 40gal full of bioballs at 1" each and 200lbs of substrate and 400lbs of rocks that cover the whole back of 270gal. 
altho i only had two 6x7" sponge media to seed, amount of my filter media has helped a lot on establishing the bacterial colony fast.


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

ok another reading at 8pm:
ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 1.5ppm
Nitrate: 40-80ppm (cant read for sure)


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

reading at 8pm.
ammonia: 0ppm
nitrite: 1ppm


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

this morning nitrite was still 1ppm


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

well someone was right. i didnt finish cycle this sat. my nitrite tested sat morning was
0.5ppm
i still need few more days. 
guess im waiting for next shipment.

BTW, i asked this question on another thread but can someone tell me how many inchs of fish i can add all at once when my cycle completes.
consider that my tank size is 350gal and my cycle was loaded with 4ppm of ammonia daily.
thanks


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

todays reading:
ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0.5ppm
Nitrate: 40-80ppm

man this nitrite is staying at 0.5ppm for a while now.


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## sbernstecker (Oct 11, 2007)

Make sure you keep adding you ammonia daily. You never did say what test kit you use?


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

im still adding 4ppm ammonia daily. 
i use aquarium pharmaceutical Master test kits:
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~ ... ndor~.html


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

tested today at 8pm:
Nitrite: 0.5ppm

man when is this gonna end? can nitrite stay at this level this long?


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

HELP~
hey i tested my nitrite twice. 
when i 1st put test drops in, it shows 1ppm. they say to wait 5min for result so i did and it shows .5ppm. but after 20min it shows 0ppm?

whats going on? also before my nitrate was 40-80 and i didnt do any water change. now it says 10-20ppm. im confused...

tomorrow i wanna buy some fish, am i ready????


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## sbernstecker (Oct 11, 2007)

You have been wanting to rush this process since you have started it!!! and all along I have told you to be patient. It really is a word that you should get to know!!!

I told you it could take up to 6 weeks for the cycle to complete, not 1 1/2 weeks but again you need to be patient. It will be more then likely less then 6 weeks but it will happen when it is ready to, not when *you* want it to. You can't rush nature.

I would wait until you get stable reading's of Ammonia = 0 and Nitrite = 0 after a 24 hr period of adding your ammonia I would do this for a few days before even considering adding fish, with any luck you will have your fish for a lot of years to come, why rush this very important step in the process, but you do what you want. If you do add the fish don't complain when you start to have problem's in the future and your fish die and now you are out all that time and money and are more frustrated than ever just because you couldn't wait for things to happen in their own time.

You need to follow the instructions with the test kit...if it says wait 5 minutes and than read the results wait 5 minutes and read the results. this is the number that you should go by, not right away or 20 minutes later but 5 minutes.

Good Luck


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

steve, this is the part that puzzles me. before when the ammonia was going up and nitrite was 0, the color on nitrite was 0 as soon as i added drops and remained that same color for even 30min.

when nitrite was 5ppm, the color would be start light then darken to 5ppm. 
this time, how come my nitrite is 1ppm when i add drops then 0.5ppm in 5 min then 0ppm in 20 min?

if anything the test kit should start light(low) and darken(higher nitrite) as time passes.
and how come my nitrate was always 40-80 and then all of sudden 10-20 now?
it doesnt make sense.

im just saying that my cycle may be complete but this test kit is defective.
heard from others that API isnt accurate.


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

found this:
http://fishlesscycling.com/forum/index.php?topic=1171.0


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## sbernstecker (Oct 11, 2007)

I don't know whether you have a bad Test Kit or not. Are you following the directions exactly (amount of time you shake bottles) and everything. The kit might not be precise but I would think even with it being off, it would be off the same amount each and every time.

I would suggest you take a water sample to you LFS and let them test it and see how close they are to yours. You want to get the # results for each test, sometimes they just tell you that everything looks good and is within range. If their's is a lot different then yours maybe your kit is outdated, and if you purchased it at the same store recently I am sure they should exchange it. A lot of stores use the same test kit so it should be a good test. If they are the same I would assume that the kit is good.

Good Luck


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

let me check it again when im home. 
can high water temp affect test results?
i have mine set at 86 then bumped to 88 to speed up cycle.


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

checked last night at 12am.
ammonia was 0ppm
nitrite 0.5ppm.

i added 4ppm of ammonia around noon that day so within 12 hours ammonia zeroed out.
still waiting for nitrite to come around...Patience!


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

still same this morning. should adding biospira now speed up a little?
is it normal for nitrite to stay at 0.5ppm for a week?


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

ok this is going crazy again. now all of sudden, my nitrite is up again at 1ppm. what could be going?

today i bought 2oz of Dr Tims One and only bacteria supplement(reported same as Biospira) but 2oz is supposed to treat 30gal. i have 350gal so dont know how much it can help.


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## sbernstecker (Oct 11, 2007)

Take a water sample to a LFS and let them test and compare test results with yours so you can get some kind of reference point


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## convictkid (Jul 28, 2004)

your probably ok just need to add some more fish to balance the cycle.


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## sbernstecker (Oct 11, 2007)

convictkid said:


> your probably ok just need to add some more fish to balance the cycle.


He is doing a fishless cycle, so this wouldn't really apply and he is only into it for 2 weeks. Personally I wouldn't add anything to the tank and go and get your water tested by another source for comparison purposes. That is the only way to find out if your test kit is bad.

You really are over thinking this whole process, just let time do it's thing!!


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

hmm, test this morning:
ammonia:0ppm
nitrite: 1-2ppm
nitrate: 40-80ppm

what the heck is my nitrite going up again?
i didnt do anything to harm bacteria. in fact i added more beneficial bacteria.

has someone seen this happen?
i will take this to another store to test it tho. but if someone has any idea as to why this happened then please let me know. thanks guys


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

ok so i went to 4 LFS to get water tested.
1st one (API drop test)
ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0.5ppm
Nitrate: 10ppm

2nd one(petco test strip from Jungle)
Nitrite: off the chart 10+ppm
Nitrate: 100ppm

3rd one(API drop test)
ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 5ppm

4th one- Petsmart (test strip from jungle)
Ammonia: 0.25ppm
Nitrite: off the chart 10ppm+
Nitrate: 100ppm

so what do i make of all this???
well i dont think the 1st place is correct, their API test kits looked real old.

all i know is my nitrite and nitrate is high. 
got another sponge filter from 1st LFS to borrow to seed the tank.

gotta wait more.


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

after adding 4ppm pf ammonia at 12:30pm.
tested at 5:30pm
Nitrite: 2ppm

i was so annoyed at the dumb LFS workers trying to give me advice on cycle.
told me fishless never works and ammonia and nitrite levels are always the same.


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

this morning,
ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 1ppm
Nitrate: 40-80ppm

once thing i changed was my water temp. before it was set at 88 and now 76.
i wonder if high temp might have killed some nitrifying bacteria. but fishless cycle article said to set it at mid to high 80s to speed up bacterial reproduction.

anyways, all of sudden my nitrite went up to 2ppm yesterday and now coming down again.


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

tested at 10:30pm,
nitrite: 0.5ppm


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

YAY! cycle is complete. took 2weeks and 2 days.

ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 40-80ppm(cant tell)

dont have time go shopping yet til sat morning so will keep on adding ammonia til then.
if i put fish in on sat morning then do i add ammonia til friday night or thursday night?

also should i do water change now or wait til friday?

thanks for all your help and it does pay to be patient.


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## sbernstecker (Oct 11, 2007)

I would add ammonia until Thursday night and keep checking levels to make sure that the tank is in fact consuming the ammonia daily and your levels of ammonia and nitrite are zero. If it is I would proceed with some daily water changes of at least 40% to get nitrates down.

1.) Do water change.
2.) Add ammonia

Next day check levels and repeat above.

*Do not clean any filters*

When doing water change make sure you add dechlorinator. If you are doing water change with the bucket method treat each bucket with dechlorinator, if you are doing it with hose method (python) treat with enough declorinator for the whole volume of the tank (350 gallons)


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

you said daily water change. how much do i do everyday?

lets say if after one 50% water change and my nitrate drops to 10ppm. do i still need to keep doing water change until i put fish in?


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## sbernstecker (Oct 11, 2007)

I don't think that doing a 50% water change when you already have a nitrate readings between 40-80 ppm will bring you down to 10ppm. If you do daily changes it will really bring down the Nitrate level, just because you do a 50% change doesn't necessarily mean that your level will change by 50%.

The goal is to have *Ammonia=0, Nitrite=0, Nitrate= Low as possible*. The only way to do this is through dilution It doesn't have to be 50%, but it wouldn't hurt, it just depends on how much your level drops after each one. after the water change you need to wait a few hours and measure for Nitrates, it gives the tank a while to stabilize.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

sbernstecker said:


> I don't think that doing a 50% water change when you already have a nitrate readings between 40-80 ppm will bring you down to 10ppm. If you do daily changes it will really bring down the Nitrate level, just because you do a 50% change doesn't necessarily mean that your level will change by 50%.


I am reluctant to post on this "car wreck" thread (it's not polite to stare, but you just can't help it), but that statement might be a little wrong.

If the nitrate test is truly a measure of nitrate PPM, then by definition a 50% water change would drop the nitrate by 50%.


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

so i did 50% water change and used prime. my nitrate is still at 40-80ppm(cant tell those **** API color chart). maybe it was 80 and then came down to 40.

tomorrow, im getting some shipment in. i plan to check and do another 50% if necessary to bring it down 20ppm.

what would happen to my bacterial colony if i did like 80-90% water change to reduce nitrates?can they handle 40ppm for a short period?


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

just an update. so in 3 days period i added 57 fish size of 3-4" in average; several are larger(~6-8").
ammonia was now 0.25ppm.
nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 40ppm

i kept adding ammonia of 4ppm til tues night.

on thurs i added 13 fish
on Friday added 7 fish
til then ammonia/nitrite was 0ppm

on Sat added 37 fish
this is when ammonia went to 0.25ppm and i can see why. i did dose with prime to detoxify ammonia and fish seemed fine and eating well. 
should i let this minicycle finish? or do water change?


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## sbernstecker (Oct 11, 2007)

I would do water change to get Nitrates down


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

here is my stocklist so far btw. (dont know scientific names too well)

1. 4 clownloaches
2. 2 ice redtop
3. 1 hap obliquidens
4. 1 mango pleco
5. 2 Lamp brichardi 
6. 1 red peacock
7. 1 stuagranti peacock
8. 1 albino eureka peacock
9. 1 electric blue(without doral color)
10. 1 electric blue hap(white blaze)
11. 1 electric blue hap(yellow blaze)
12. 2 Kilesa
13. 1 Albino electric blue hap
14. 2 Leulupi
15. 1 LG stuagranti maleri peacock
16. 6 electric yellows
17. 4 baby frontosa
18. 1 jacob eureka red peacock
19. 1 peacock(not sure of name)
20. 1 Hap (not sure of name)
21. 2 taiwan reef
22. 1 copadichromis borley
23. 1 sunshine peacock
24. 2 parrot
25. 1 Golden Nugget pleco
26. 1 Green pleco
27. 4 golden algae eaters
28. 2 redtop mbuna
29. 2 demansoni
30. 2 synodontis eupterus
31. 1 synodontis spotted catfish
32. 2 albino zebra redtop
33. 2 cobalt blue
34. 1 otopharynx lithoblazes
35. 3 Red zebras

i will wait until my tank stabilizes then add some more. 
i still want:
1. 3-4 synodontis multipunctatus
2. 8-9 tropheus 
3. 2 julidochromis transcriptus
4. 4 Alt calvus
5. 1 furcifer(maybe)
6. 2 Dim compressiceps (1 regular and 1 albino)
7. 1red empress
8. 1 Venustus
9. 3-4 different afra reefs


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

yea i was planning to do water change today.


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## sbernstecker (Oct 11, 2007)

If I was you I would start a new thread in the Species section under I don't know where - (Lake Malawi Species or maybe General African Cichlid Discussion). At least that is where I would start, post your stock list in that thread. They have a lot of knowledgeable people in there who know about the interactions between species of fish and see what they think.


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## dkreef (May 23, 2008)

well mini cycle is done.
tested today and ammonia/nitrite =0ppm, nitrate 40ppm
going to do 50% water change again.


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