# Water Change Set-up



## Bikeman48088 (Nov 13, 2013)

I live in a Quad and have a 110 gallon aquarium on the lower level, sitting on a carpeted cement floor. Just on the other side of the wall, 1/2 story down is my basement. Fortutitously, directly behind the tank, in the basement, is a utility sink. I'm planning on taking advantage of that fact by plumbing a fill and return line through the wall to a 20 gallon Long tank sitting under my aquarium. 
To get ready for that, I have placed an Aqueon 3000 submersible pump in the 20 gallon tank and plumbed the inlet up to a 4-way connection. The top is currently plugged, but can be converted to a spigot coming out of the front to fill a bucket.
One arm goes up top the tank, with a ball valve.
The other arm goes back into the bottom of the tank with another ball valve. This way, I can pump water to the main tank, recirculate it or fill a bucket.
I've added a 200W heater so I can fill the 20 gallon tank with tap water, add conditioner, recirculate and heat to main tank temperature. Then I can reverse the valves and pump 20 gallons of pre-heated conditioned water back to the main tank.
I could hard plumb the suction-side up to the tank, but I can use the outlet pipe as a suction pipe by just shutting off the pump and letting it siphon back down to the 20 gallon tank.

Thoughts?


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## TheJ0kerrr (Aug 14, 2012)

Pictures would be great, but anything that can make water changes easier is a great DIY! Just gotta make sure if anything fails that you don't end up with 100 gallons of water on your floor with dead fish and fried filters in the tank! I suppose your system still requires you to operate it manually, so you'll be there to react if that happens


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## Bikeman48088 (Nov 13, 2013)

TheJ0kerrr said:


> Pictures would be great, but anything that can make water changes easier is a great DIY! Just gotta make sure if anything fails that you don't end up with 100 gallons of water on your floor with dead fish and fried filters in the tank! I suppose your system still requires you to operate it manually, so you'll be there to react if that happens


Here you go.

Waterchangesetup by bikeman48088, on Flickr


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

What you built should work great! I fully agree, once you get used to an automatic water change system, you will never want to go back.

Here is a write up of my setup with pictures that is a lot less complex than yours - cheaper too :wink:


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## Bikeman48088 (Nov 13, 2013)

fmueller said:


> What you built should work great! I fully agree, once you get used to an automatic water change system, you will never want to go back.
> 
> Here is a write up of my setup with pictures that is a lot less complex than yours - cheaper too :wink:


It might be cheaper, but I'm darn sure yours took way longer to build. :lol:

Here's my costs:
Sump pump = $20 clearance
20 gallon tank = $20 on sale
200W heater = $16.99 on sale
PVC pipe= $ 2.88
fittings = ~$10


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Bikeman48088 said:


> It might be cheaper, but I'm darn sure yours took way longer to build. :lol:


In the ideal case where the drain and water supply pipe are directly under the tank one floor below, I bet you could install my system in half an hour or less. Obviously if you have to run pipes half way across the house, things will take longer.

My drip system consists of a self drilling saddle valve that goes on the water pipe - cost about $10, installation about 1min - once I found the screwdriver in my messy garage 










1/4″ Polyethylene tubing - cost $3 per 25', installation depends on distance from tank and how well you want to hide it, 5min for my 75G, half a day for my 125G where I hid the pipe behind baseboards and under the carpet when crossing doorways.










Siphon-fed overflow made from 3/4″ PVC pipe. You should be able to put this thing together in 15min or less depending what tools you use to cut the PVC pipe. Once built, it simply sits on the side of the tank.










From the overflow, 1″ PVC tubing runs to the drain.

The system uses no moving parts like float switches and such that could break. You simply adjust the drip rate via the saddle valve. I aim for 10% of system volume per day, meaning I drip about 12.5G of water into a 125G tank in 24h (about 0.3G per hour).

The system is fully automatic, meaning I can go for 6 weeks to Europe, and on the date of my return to Ohio the water in my tanks is just as pristine as on the day I left!


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## Bikeman48088 (Nov 13, 2013)

fmueller said:


> .........
> 
> Siphon-fed overflow made from 3/4″ PVC pipe. You should be able to put this thing together in 15min or less depending what tools you use to cut the PVC pipe. Once built, it simply sits on the side of the tank.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure that I fully understand the siphon-fed overflow piping. For a siphon to work, the drain must be below the level of the tank and form a vacuum in the drain line. I don't see how this can function with an open T. What am I missing?


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

The open T comes after the section that has the siphon. It makes sure that the siphon does not break when the water flow stops. Without the T, when the flow stops the vacuum in the drain line sucks the siphon part dry, and when the flow starts back up, the siphon would not and the tank would overflow. The T would prevent this from happening.

Casting all modesty aside, I reckon I am above average smart when it comes to these hands on things, but how this one works exactly I could not figure out before I built on and tried it on a bucket! The guy who came up with the idea must have been way above average smart 

To go back to your system, I see one big advantage over mine in that it allows you to easily dose chemicals like dechlorinator into the water. The only way to do this with my system would be using a dosing pump, and those things are expensive! In my case - and I would say in most cases - there is no need to dose chemicals, but if you are unlucky enough to live in a community that uses chloramine instead of regular chlorine, there is no way around using a dechlorinator. In that case a system like your wins hands down!


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## Bikeman48088 (Nov 13, 2013)

fmueller said:


> The open T comes after the section that has the siphon. It makes sure that the siphon does not break when the water flow stops. Without the T, when the flow stops the vacuum in the drain line sucks the siphon part dry, and when the flow starts back up, the siphon would not and the tank would overflow. The T would prevent this from happening.
> 
> Casting all modesty aside, I reckon I am above average smart when it comes to these hands on things, but how this one works exactly I could not figure out before I built on and tried it on a bucket! The guy who came up with the idea must have been way above average smart
> 
> To go back to your system, I see one big advantage over mine in that it allows you to easily dose chemicals like dechlorinator into the water. The only way to do this with my system would be using a dosing pump, and those things are expensive! In my case - and I would say in most cases - there is no need to dose chemicals, but if you are unlucky enough to live in a community that uses chloramine instead of regular chlorine, there is no way around using a dechlorinator. In that case a system like your wins hands down!


Now, I get it. The overflow inside of the tank is balanced with the external pipe and acts like a trap that you would find in a sink. it stays full of water and spills excess down the drain pipe. 
I have several months to devise an autonomous system that automatically changes the water, filters it, feeds the fish, keeps the tank heated and can't fail for 2 months while I'll be away. An inline dechlorinator and your system would take care of some of the requirements. As for heating, redundent heaters would work. Still thinking about the filtration requirement. I have a canister now, but would never leave the house for 2 months with a canister under the tank. A bad hose and 110 gallons of water on the floor and dead fish when I returned would be a nightmare....and pretty smelly.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

That's a tough call you have to answer there! One of the worries with an automatic water changer hooked up to the water mains is that now you are no longer talking about 110G, but an unlimited number of gallons!

Question: Do you need a dechlorinator? With an automatic drip system like mine, the water is added so slowly that the minute quantity of chlorine added during any given time period will take care of itself. I have no used dechlorinator in 4 or 5 years, and my fish have never been as healthy as with this water change system, presumably due to the consistently superb water quality. Of course if your community uses chloramine, that is a different story.

Regarding heating, consider using a Ranco Digital Temperature Controller. People use these to control the temperature of warehouses containing millions of dollars worth of temperature sensitive produce. They don't fail - or at least not anywhere near as often as aquarium heaters.


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## Bikeman48088 (Nov 13, 2013)

fmueller said:


> That's a tough call you have to answer there! One of the worries with an automatic water changer hooked up to the water mains is that now you are no longer talking about 110G, but an unlimited number of gallons!
> 
> Question: Do you need a dechlorinator? With an automatic drip system like mine, the water is added so slowly that the minute quantity of chlorine added during any given time period will take care of itself. I have no used dechlorinator in 4 or 5 years, and my fish have never been as healthy as with this water change system, presumably due to the consistently superb water quality. Of course if your community uses chloramine, that is a different story.
> 
> Regarding heating, consider using a Ranco Digital Temperature Controller. People use these to control the temperature of warehouses containing millions of dollars worth of temperature sensitive produce. They don't fail - or at least not anywhere near as often as aquarium heaters.


The controller above still needs to be connected to a reliable heater, right? I'm not sure that I see the need to have a controller essentially controlling a controller. If the heating element fails, you're screwed in both instances.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Bikeman48088 said:


> The controller above still needs to be connected to a reliable heater, right?


Yes



Bikeman48088 said:


> I'm not sure that I see the need to have a controller essentially controlling a controller. If the heating element fails, you're screwed in both instances.


That is of course true as well, but in practice you virtually never hear about the heating element failing in aquarium heaters. It is always the controller getting stuck either in the on or off position. Getting stuck in "on" has the most severe consequences, because your tank contents will be turned into soup. If it gets stuck in "off" you will usually notice it after a few days, because lack of activity in the fish, or because you put a finger in the water during feeding and notice it's cold. Both fish and plants will usually survive, if brought up back to temperature slowly.

The latter rather harmless scenario also applies if the heating element fails. By using a reliable controller you can reduce or eliminate the risk of the soup scenario, which is well worth the cost of a Ranco to me - at least with bigger tanks. Of course your mileage may vary.


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## Bikeman48088 (Nov 13, 2013)

fmueller said:


> Bikeman48088 said:
> 
> 
> > The controller above still needs to be connected to a reliable heater, right?
> ...


If getting stuck ON is the major failure mode, then I see the value. If it gets stuck on OFF, it is of no value to me 2000 miles away from home for 2 months. Money isn't the issue to me, it's reliability. Would my money be better spent on getting more reliable heaters? If so, what are they?
I spent a lot of my professional career doing Failure Mode and Effect Analyses. Sorry if old habits die hard.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Bikeman48088 said:


> If getting stuck ON is the major failure mode, then I see the value. If it gets stuck on OFF, it is of no value to me 2000 miles away from home for 2 months.


I see your point, but the fact of the matter is that the Ranco tends not to get stuck - I have yet to hear of a single case where one failed! On the other hand, aquarium heaters tend to get stuck randomly in ON or OFF, and that is not a rare occurrence. Basically anybody who has been in the fish keeping hobby for a few years has experienced it!



Bikeman48088 said:


> Would my money be better spent on getting more reliable heaters? If so, what are they?


If you come across any, please do let me know! I have been looking for years for a heater that I can use myself, and also wholeheartedly recommend to people on this forum. The sad news is, there isn't one!



Bikeman48088 said:


> I spent a lot of my professional career doing Failure Mode and Effect Analyses. Sorry if old habits die hard.


Nothing wrong with that, and with doing a bit of research before you jump into things :thumb:


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## Bikeman48088 (Nov 13, 2013)

fmueller said:


> Bikeman48088 said:
> 
> 
> > If getting stuck ON is the major failure mode, then I see the value. If it gets stuck on OFF, it is of no value to me 2000 miles away from home for 2 months.
> ...


Hmmm... I'm not getting a warm and fuzzy feeling that I'll be able to safeguard my tank while I'm gone, now. 

My original plan was to have a couple of heaters, capable of heating the tank by themselves, with slightly varying set points. If the primary failed in the "OFF" condition, the second one, set at a slightly lower temperature, would kick in and take over. But, that only provides protection from an "OFF" condition. The Ranco could be set at a slightly higher temp than the primary heater and control the heater if it's stuck in the "ON" condition. Now, it's starting to get a little complicated. Can the Ranco be set to control a series of heaters? If so, it could always guard against any "ON" condition failure, leaving only the "ALL OFF" to worry about.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

The Ranco can control any number of heaters. The basic model I own can not control them individually, meaning you have only one set temp for all of them, but there might be another version that can control two devices separately. Google should allow you to check on that quickly.

Regarding Failure Mode and Effect Analyses, I guess the basic premise is to assume something fails, and you try to predict what the consequences would be. That's a good way of thinking about things, but you shouldn't loose sight of the fact that some devices might have a 5% failure rate withing the first year of operation, and others might have a 0.005% failure rate within the same time frame. There is simply a huge difference in reliability, and you find this difference between controllers in aquarium heaters and the Ranco controllers.


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## spotmonster (Nov 23, 2006)

I'll vouch for the fact that there is no such thing as a reliable heater in the aquarium industry. It seems to be one of those simple things no one has been able to perfect. I've had one get stuck on, and I've had one of the old stealths literally "explode violently blowing the top off of the heater. I've had several others that simply become unable to keep up the temps to acceptable levels. The last heater I bought I spent 70.00 only to have it fail to keep up after 1 year. If I have to pick one, I think the Jagers are the best bet for the buck.


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## BratmanXj (Feb 11, 2013)

Second the heater failure issues. Just lost a pair of J. Ornatus to a fairly new (2 months) heater stick ON in a breeding tank, lost the adults but save a few fry. The heater was set to 74 and I caught the tank at 85ish.

I picked up a few "open-box" FinnEx Max300 digital heater controllers for my display tank even though I'm running the higher end Jager heaters. Like the Ranco controller that Mr Mueller refers to, these electronic controllers have an almost non-existent failure rate versus the bi-metal "mechanical switch" inside the heater. I debated running two Ranco controllers, independently each with their own 150w heater, in my 75g display tank. The Rancos are not expensive, but the open-box price for the FinnEx was unbelievably cheap.


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## Bikeman48088 (Nov 13, 2013)

fmueller said:


> The Ranco can control any number of heaters. The basic model I own can not control them individually, meaning you have only one set temp for all of them, but there might be another version that can control two devices separately. Google should allow you to check on that quickly.
> 
> Regarding Failure Mode and Effect Analyses, I guess the basic premise is to assume something fails, and you try to predict what the consequences would be. That's a good way of thinking about things, but you shouldn't loose sight of the fact that some devices might have a 5% failure rate withing the first year of operation, and others might have a 0.005% failure rate within the same time frame. There is simply a huge difference in reliability, and you find this difference between controllers in aquarium heaters and the Ranco controllers.


A controller failure rate of 0.0005% coupled to a heater with a 5% failure rate doesn't increase your chances of success if the failure mode is stuck "OFF". A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. It appears to me that a heater that could not be turned off, coupled to a Ranco would improve the odds. Now, does anyone make a heater that is reliably ON 100% of the time?

I decided that I will convert my water change system over to something more like yours before I leave. Thanks for the info on that.

After figuring out the heating, I still have to figure out how to feed my fish automatically for 2 months. By the time I leave, my 15 juvenile cichlids will be considerably larger and eat more, too. So, the next thing to investigate is automatic feeder reservoir capacities. Any suggestions there would be most welcome.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Just to be sure, I just made those numbers up! At any rate, the failure in the heater is generally in the controller part, ie not the heating element. If you replace that the controller part by a much more reliable controller like the Ranco, you end up with a very reliable controller, and a generally very reliable heating element. That is obviously better than a generally very reliable heating element with a shoddy controller - no rocket science here!

Glad you like my water change system. It's not really my idea but something I cobbled together from various idea I picked up on CF. We've had some very knowledgeable moderators and members here many years ago when I first joined the site :lol:

Regarding auto feeders, Eheim has the reputation of making the best; ie most reliable units. But it is also well known that their capacity is quite limited, to put it mildly. Personally I have always been lucky in that the Eheim auto feeder capacity was sufficient for my purposes. If filled with small pellets they can pack quite a bit of food, and fish can go for a good time without food after it runs out. Of course 2 months is likely to put you beyond those limits. Every once in a while somebody with the intention of increasing the capacity through a DIY project comes along, but I have yet to see results that achieve this goal while maintaining the reliability. Truth be told, one rarely ever sees any results from this kind of intended project. If you go that route, please let us know how it works out for you!


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## Bikeman48088 (Nov 13, 2013)

fmueller said:


> Just to be sure, I just made those numbers up! At any rate, the failure in the heater is generally in the controller part, ie not the heating element. If you replace that the controller part by a much more reliable controller like the Ranco, you end up with a very reliable controller, and a generally very reliable heating element. That is obviously better than a generally very reliable heating element with a shoddy controller - no rocket science here!
> 
> Glad you like my water change system. It's not really my idea but something I cobbled together from various idea I picked up on CF. We've had some very knowledgeable moderators and members here many years ago when I first joined the site :lol:
> 
> Regarding auto feeders, Eheim has the reputation of making the best; ie most reliable units. But it is also well known that their capacity is quite limited, to put it mildly. Personally I have always been lucky in that the Eheim auto feeder capacity was sufficient for my purposes. If filled with small pellets they can pack quite a bit of food, and fish can go for a good time without food after it runs out. Of course 2 months is likely to put you beyond those limits. Every once in a while somebody with the intention of increasing the capacity through a DIY project comes along, but I have yet to see results that achieve this goal while maintaining the reliability. Truth be told, one rarely ever sees any results from this kind of intended project. If you go that route, please let us know how it works out for you!


So, to be clear. You would use a Ranco with a standard aquarium heater/s pegged in the ON position and let the Ranco cycle it as needed? 
OK, I did a little quick research on the Eheim. I'm not thrilled about the battery only power, but it appears that the batteries last way longer than 2 months, so that's OK. It's a screw feed, which to me screams "modify the hopper", but leave the screw mechanism intact. 
Now, if I had any idea what fifteen 1 year old cichlids, an algae eater and a pleco will consume per day, I'd be able to tackle the hopper mods. 
The automatic water change system will be an easy one to handle now that I'm running a fill and drain line directly to a utility sink on the other side of the wall and half a flight down to the basement in my quad-style house.
Your input has been very helpful. Please keep it up. In the meantime, I'm playing with various high-volume in-tank filtration scenarios so that no vacuuming will be necessary. So far, my poly-fil soda bottles on powerhead combos are lasting a week or two before becoming too fouled to pump sufficiently. I suppose that I could chain several to run in parallel, but that's the easy way out. I'm a tinkerer by nature.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Bikeman48088 said:


> So, to be clear. You would use a Ranco with a standard aquarium heater/s pegged in the ON position and let the Ranco cycle it as needed?


Exactly

I'll have to say something about your efforts to replicate gravel vacuuming, but I am too tired tonight to make any sense. Maybe tomorrow


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