# 10 Gallon Sump Plans for 55 Gallon Tank



## CichlidsTank (Sep 27, 2009)

I got my overflow working, now onto the sump...

How does this look:
Any suggestions on improvements?


----------



## larry.beck (Jul 31, 2009)

I think you're going to want to get the sponge filtration immediately after the first compartment in the sump, no sense dragging fish poop all the way through the sump. Then it'll just become a nitrate factory.


----------



## The King Crabb (Jun 28, 2011)

I'd move the heater to the plant refugium so the water has more time to be heated by it. Replace the heater with filter floss/ sponges in the first compartment so that the water force will help the dirt be picked up.


----------



## CichlidsTank (Sep 27, 2009)

6 Sections (left to right):
1-intake/sponge filter
2-nothing
3-plant refugium/heater
4-fry refugium
5-Bio Balls
6-Pump to tank


















Does that look better now that I have the sponge filter first and the heater in the plant refugium?
Any other suggestions for improvements?


----------



## The King Crabb (Jun 28, 2011)

That looks great to me! Just out of curiosity, what is the GPH of the pump you're using?


----------



## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

CichlidsTank said:


> >snip<
> Any suggestions on improvements?


Your baffles are too high. When you power down the DT that 10G sump is going to overflow. How much it loses will depend on your plumbing and weir height or type of overflow you are using.

Consider the amount of water during _Power Off_ in the drain and pump pipes then the drop in waterlevel in the DT thru the overflow then add a fudge factor when deciding the height of the baffles. Prolly gonna be near 3 - 5 gallons.


----------



## The King Crabb (Jun 28, 2011)

Good catch, I hadn't noticed.

What I'd do is take the volume of one and a half inches of the 55G (which is about 4 gallons) and put the top of the overflows at one and half inches under the water height. Then calculate what 4 gallons is in terms of heigh of the 10 gallon tank (about 5"). So you're 10G tank just turned into a 5G sump. If possible I'd get a longer tank so that more of the heater can fit in or take out the wall between the plant and fry refugiums so that the heater can be submersed and therefore not crack.

Good luck!


----------



## CichlidsTank (Sep 27, 2009)

The King Crabb said:


> what is the GPH of the pump you're using?


560 GPH
_______________________________________

I did some calculations to figure out how much I would have to lower my baffles...

My 55 gallon tank only has a max of 1 1/8" between where the 55 gal tank would overflow and where the intake of my overflow is. So instead of using 1.5 inches I used 1 1/8 inch to calculate total that could overflow into the sump, which is 2.8 gallons.

Then I calculated the amount of space that would be taken up in my 10 gallon at normal operation, which is 7.1 gallons (see calculation below).

Then subtracted normal operation volume from my total inside volume of my 10.3 gallon tank and ended up with 3.16 gallons.

so... If my sump pump fails and the 1 1/8 inch of extra water (really I only have about 1" of water above my overflow intake) in my 55 all drains down into my sump it will be a total volume of 7.1 + 2.8 = 9.9 gallons, which is less than the total 10.3 gallons in the 10 gallon tank sump. AND that leaves 10.3-9.9=0.4 gallons in the sump for any calculation errors/extra pipe drainage.

Calculations:








*assuming last 2 sections are only going to be filled with about 6" of water at normal operation.

*New baffle sizes:*

















So, okay now?


----------



## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

What happens to the water in the plumbing when power is out. You could use a check valve on the return but not sure one should rely soley onna check valve.

What size plumbing and lengths are you planning?


----------



## CichlidsTank (Sep 27, 2009)

fox said:


> What happens to the water in the plumbing when power is out. You could use a check valve on the return but not sure one should rely soley onna check valve.
> 
> What size plumbing and lengths are you planning?


I'm planning on just drilling a hole in the top of the return pipe just under water level so if a reverse siphon occurs it will suck air in the hole and siphon will stop.

Plumbing is 1" pvc overflow from tank to sump, 3/4 inch return hose.
*My pump has a knob on it to vary the flow too


----------



## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

You need to account for the water in the plumbing also, say 4' of 1"ÃƒËœ and 4' of 3/4"ÃƒËœ.

I guess what I am trying to point out is ten gallons is just too small a volume to use for a sump.


----------



## pdandy88 (Dec 27, 2010)

I agree. All the water currently in the pipes will run to the sump and overflow it. And if it doesn't, you'll be cutting it very close. I wouldnt want to risk it. Go with at least a 20g, it'll give you a little bit of wiggle room in case of a power outage.


----------



## CichlidsTank (Sep 27, 2009)

fox said:


> You need to account for the water in the plumbing also, say 4' of 1"ÃƒËœ and 4' of 3/4"ÃƒËœ.
> 
> I guess what I am trying to point out is ten gallons is just too small a volume to use for a sump.


Well since you asked...

4' of 1" pvc is: Area = Pi * (1/2)Ã‚Â² = 0.7854 * 48" = 37.699/231 = .1632 gallons
4' of 3/4" pipe is: Pi * (.75/2)Ã‚Â² = 0.4418 * 48" = 21.206/231 = .0918 gallons

0.1632 + 0.0918 = 0.255 gallons

0.255 is less than my 0.4 gallon extra space -> so my design is still good.
*Plus the 0.4 gallon space was calculated using 1 1/8 inch fill point in my 55 gallon. Which really I would only be filling above the overflow by 1" or less, so the 0.4 extra space would really be more than the 0.4


----------



## CichlidsTank (Sep 27, 2009)

pdandy88 said:


> And if it doesn't, you'll be cutting it very close. I wouldnt want to risk it. Go with at least a 20g, it'll give you a little bit of wiggle room in case of a power outage.


I already have the extra 10 gallon lying around, not planning on buying a bigger tank for a sump. It wouldn't fit under my 55 gallon anyways.

... and yes, I am cutting it close, but it should work with no overflows even with power failure or sump failure, so I think I'm going to risk it. -> Worse case scenario I'll be cleaning less than a gallon of water off the floor.


----------



## CichlidsEverywhere (Aug 31, 2011)

What you are not accounting for is human error.

Water will evaporate and you will replace it. You will have to do water changes.

Will you replace EXACTLY what you remove or will you add a lil more so u dont have to keep filling it every 3-4 days?

i run heavy myself, exposing myself to the possibility of an over flow, but i am running a 20g sump so i have a lil more room to play with.


----------



## CichlidsTank (Sep 27, 2009)

CichlidsEverywhere said:


> What you are not accounting for is human error.
> 
> Water will evaporate and you will replace it. You will have to do water changes.
> 
> Will you replace EXACTLY what you remove or will you add a lil more so u dont have to keep filling it every 3-4 days?


You are right. I don't know if this is going to work 100% of the time, but I think the calculated risk is low enough to try my sump plan. I think I'm going to put it together and test it out. If it overflows i'll just remove the sump and try again with something else.

Water on the floor isn't the worst thing that could happen.


----------



## Rick_Lindsey (Aug 26, 2002)

CichlidsEverywhere said:


> Will you replace EXACTLY what you remove or will you add a lil more so u dont have to keep filling it every 3-4 days?


As long as you only ever add water with the pump OFF, I don't see how you can overflow your sump. I agree with pulling the baffles down a little from the top, but that's more for if one of those narrow channels gets clogged.

In the end, if you fill the tank until it starts overflowing a little into the sump, then you fill the sump, I don't think you have any problems (barring things like back-siphoning on the return plumbing, etc). For water changes, turn the pump off (or divert the output to your garden bed for a quick ~7gal change). When you're refilling, if the pump is off, any danger of overflow is *now*, not later. Same chance you have of overflowing a tank without a sump if you leave your python running unattended .

You may find that your pump runs dry, but that's a different discussion entirely .

I have a question though -- whats the point of the middle baffle? It looks like water will flow over rather than into both "large" middle chambers.

-Rick


----------



## The King Crabb (Jun 28, 2011)

CichlidsEverywhere has a good point. You're assuming that you will never ever refill more than your 1 1/8" of water above your drain. I don't know about you, but I definitely wouldn't want to measure out my exact water height every 3-4 days.

Pdandy88 also has a very good point. 10G is pushing it in a smaller 30"-36" tank but I'm one for risking it so that's why I've been supportive of the idea. Since you say another tank wouldn't fit under, why not just make a plywood tank? $15 plywood, $5 sealant, $10 epoxy. $30 and you can make the sump any size you like and it's much easier to create and adjust baffles in a plywood tank, you'd probably end up paying more than $30 for glass baffles anyway. I like plywood sumps because you can literally make them any size. I'll be making a 48"x14"x14" 40G sump for my 125G once I get that built.


----------



## CichlidsTank (Sep 27, 2009)

Rick_Lindsey said:


> I have a question though -- whats the point of the middle baffle? It looks like water will flow over rather than into both "large" middle chambers.


The middle baffle is mostly to separate my fry/plants.

If I had the water flow directly through them there would be too much of a flow for fry/plants. Doing it the way I did reduces the flow in/out of the middle cambers, but there still will be some flow in and out.



The King Crabb said:


> CichlidsEverywhere has a good point. You're assuming that you will never ever refill more than your 1 1/8" of water above your drain. I don't know about you, but I definitely wouldn't want to measure out my exact water height every 3-4 days.


I know I won't fill above 1 1/8" above my drain because if I do my 55 gallon tank will overflow. I only have 1 1/8" above my drain that I could possibly fill. I'm assuming I'm going to be filling less than that. Most likely 1/2" - 1"


----------



## The King Crabb (Jun 28, 2011)

CichlidsTank said:


> I know I won't fill above 1 1/8" above my drain because if I do my 55 gallon tank will overflow. I only have 1 1/8" above my drain that I could possibly fill. I'm assuming I'm going to be filling less than that. Most likely 1/2" - 1"


Although that gives the chance of air getting into the siphon and therefore stopping it, the pump keeps going and overflows your 55G. Either really crunch down on numbers for the baffle to guarantee that if the siphon stops the pump won't get enough water to overflow the main tank - although that's not really good for the pump either.


----------



## CichlidsTank (Sep 27, 2009)

The King Crabb said:


> Although that gives the chance of air getting into the siphon and therefore stopping it, the pump keeps going and overflows your 55G.


That was part of my prior calculations, kinda- The top 1 1/8" of tank is 2.8 gallons... The last 2 sections of the sump filled half with water is 1.4 gallons. So if the overflow stops working, the most the pump will be able to pump back into the 55 gallon is about 1.4 gallons which is less than the 2.8 gallons the 55 can hold above the overflow.


----------



## The King Crabb (Jun 28, 2011)

It sounds to me like you've got this thought through well enough. My last concern is that the water may not have enough time in the sump to be heated properly, again I suggest building a plywood sump for $40.


----------



## CichlidsEverywhere (Aug 31, 2011)

I support your running a sump and if u are not concerned with the risks i support you trying this, but..

You will have to add water more than once a week with a 10gal sump due to evaporation alone.


----------



## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

CichlidsTank said:


> snip
> The middle baffle is mostly to separate my fry/plants.
> 
> If I had the water flow directly through them there would be too much of a flow for fry/plants. Doing it the way I did reduces the flow in/out of the middle cambers, but there still will be some flow in and out.
> snip


The same volume that flows into the sump flows into the pump well in this design. As a matter of fact the same volume flows thru each chamber. You will not be getting any more or less volume of flow thru the centers sections but actually an equal amount of volume will flow thru or over prolly in this design thru all the chambers.

You will find that the pre filters in front of the pump will foul quickly due to size constraints and fry will overflow into the pump well. Consider you will be flowing mebbe 500gph thru that ten gal sump.

FW sumps are not the same as SW. You will see algae in there with lighting the plant section and that will foul the pump well. Ask me how I know ... Be Sure ten gallons is not worth the effort, noise and maintenance to be used as a sump, better off with a can but that is just my own personal opinion. I have been able to get a twenty gal sump to work on 65G tank with FW and found it to be a lot of upkeep but it worked.

Build it and let us know your results. :thumb:


----------



## CichlidsTank (Sep 27, 2009)

All my planning went to waste. Once I had the silicone in my hand I just started putting dividers in and I ended up with this:










I changed the last divider a couple times because fry kept getting sucked up and shot back into my main tank, but so far this last design no fry have been lost.


----------



## The King Crabb (Jun 28, 2011)

Looks good! Shouldn't there be some means of filtration in there though?


----------



## livingroomdiver (Oct 10, 2011)

I would make more water available to the return pump. As you have it, there's about 1.5-2 gallons available for evaporation. You'll be topping off the sump every couple days. If that's your planned schedule, then you'll be fine.

Use a screen tank divider between the plant/fry refugium and lower baffle #4 to 5-6 inches, and you'll make a lot more water available to the return.


----------



## The King Crabb (Jun 28, 2011)

livingroomdiver said:


> I would make more water available to the return pump. As you have it, there's about 1.5-2 gallons available for evaporation. You'll be topping off the sump every couple days. If that's your planned schedule, then you'll be fine.
> 
> Use a screen tank divider between the plant/fry refugium and lower baffle #4 to 5-6 inches, and you'll make a lot more water available to the return.


If you read back you'll see that he can't raise the amount of water in there or it will overflow, it's literally at its limits.


----------



## livingroomdiver (Oct 10, 2011)

> If you read back you'll see that he can't raise the amount of water in there or it will overflow, it's literally at its limits.


Sorry.  At the time I posted, I didn't see that there was a page two. Good luck with the new plan. Simple and straight forward. Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## djzman (Dec 14, 2009)

First, I am definitely not a 'fuge expert. I build a 29 gal to service my 135. I'm in the process of writing it up here: www.danielsworlds.com.

My goal was nitrate removal, therefore plant growth. I don't know if I achieved it, but two specific design elements that I think helped:

1) water enters the plant chamber at the bottom and flows out the top, maximizing contact time

2) a recirculate feature of the plumbing in the form of tee, valve, spraybar (it is noisy though)

Just food for thought.


----------



## CichlidsTank (Sep 27, 2009)

The King Crabb said:


> Looks good! Shouldn't there be some means of filtration in there though?


I have 2 filters on the main tank. The main point of this "sump" I think turned out to be more of a connected fry tank.



livingroomdiver said:


> I would make more water available to the return pump


Yeah, I really should have made a bigger sump than a 10 gallon to begin with, but I had the 10 gallon already and there is no room in my stand for anything bigger.

I have to add some water once a week due to evaporation, but it's nothing I can't handle. The sump has a built in alarm-> when I hear gurgling I know it's time for more water.



djzman said:


> 1) water enters the plant chamber; 2) a recirculate feature of the plumbing in the form of tee


1- I decided to skip the plant 'fuge and I didn't want to maximize flow through a fry 'fuge
2- I have a recirculate feature in my last section to control outflow. It doesn't circulate back through the whole sump though as I've seen in other designs


----------



## CichlidsTank (Sep 27, 2009)

I think whenever I get a bigger tank I'm going to steal some ideas from Diogo Lopes' to make a fry sump...



Diogo Lopes said:


>


----------



## The King Crabb (Jun 28, 2011)

Diogo Lopes knows how to do fry, his tanks are genius!


----------

