# Have I messed up my cycle?



## cyberil (Apr 15, 2010)

*Have I messed up my cycle?*

Hi, I could do with some help please...

March 24 - I set up my new tank a Fluval Profile 1200 - 85 gallon with a Fluval FX5 filter. I used a culture to get the cycling started.

April 1 - I was advised by my LFS to acquire 3 young African Cichlids. NH4 0.2, PH 8, NO2 0.6, NO3 20

April 5 - NH4 0.2, PH 8, NO2 0.6, NO3 40

April 7 onwards - The appearance of algae, fish not eating, fish motionless but not dead. NH4 0.1, PH 8, NO2 0.6, NO3 10

April 10 - NH4 0.1, PH 8, NO2 0.6, NO3 20

April 13 - 2 of the 3 fish were removed as I'm sure they would die and get lodged under the rocks and cause ammonia problems. LFS advised me to do a 25% water change which i did. 2nd LFS advised me to add more biological media and start up which I did. They also advised me to add 3 sachets of Fluval Clearmax which traps phosphate, nitrite and nitrate.

April 14 (today, 3 weeks later) - After about 10 hours I removed the Fluval Clearmax as I was afraid that using this chemical may disrupt the nitrogen cycle, although LFS 2 advised me to keep it in the filter permanently. NH4 0.05, PH 8, NO2 0.1, NO3 5.

*Have I messed up my cycle by using Fluval Clearmax?

Will I have to start all over again or is there nothing to worry about? My next step is to add about 10-15 cichlids but how will I ever know if the tank has cycled properly until there is a huge spike in Amonia or Nitrites. Should I return the remaining fish and start a fishless cycle with ammonia?

Can anyone help as this is my first aquarium and although I've read some books on the matter Im still unsure....

Paul*


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Welcome to CF,
Always a bummer when bad things are going on and getting conflicting answers to life and death questions.

*I used a culture to get the cycling started. *
What was it you used?
*
April 1 - I was advised by my LFS to acquire 3 young African Cichlids. NH4 0.2, PH 8, NO2 0.6, NO3 20 *
What are you using for testing? Was the givin readings after the fish were added, or before?

The big swings in your nitrate levels is a bit of a puzzle.
With so small of a bio load, I would have expected more stable readings.

*Will I have to start all over again*
From what I could gather, your cycle never started.
You added a "culture" and then ran the tank for a week with nothing to feed the "culture".
Then you added a very small bio load which I think really began your cycle.
Up untill you added those few fish, I think you were just passing time.
Water changes are the best thing you can do for a with fish cycle, period.
Might even be daily, 25% or more.
The use of a quality detox, prime/amquel, product at each change.
Light feeding, every other day even. 
I would not touch the filter media. No checking or cleaning.
I would not add a bunch of new fish, untill the ones I had gave signs of improvement, and water changes should take care of that.
Good luck to you.


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## rgr4475 (Mar 19, 2008)

Kaiser is right on. I also wouldn't use the clearmax especially not permanently. If you're cycling with fish, like Kaiser said water changes are best. Chemicals can slow the cycling process. If you can return the fish and get your money back or a store credit, I would do that. Fishless cycling is a lot easier and you don't have to worry about stressing or killing your fish.


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## solgood (Sep 23, 2009)

OK..... there is about 354676576765 posts on this site on the topic of cycling tanks and most of you are telling people to do a fishless cycle. I understand this does the job but it seems like it takes a long time and is a real pain in the rear. I know this isnt new but what if i was to tell you i no how to cycle a tank in 24 hours.

step 1= Fill the tank, put gravel or sand in and get the filter(s) running, set heater to about 82 deg.
2= Next day take some filter media or gravel, sand, rocks, bio balls, air stone, fake plants, little scuba diver guy with air bubbles coming out of his head. Any thing that has been in a running tank for 3 plus months. Filter media would be the best. If you can place it in the filter(s) on the new tank that would be best. If not just place it in the tank. If this is your first tank talk to your pet store and ask for some thing from one of there tanks. This is your "bio load".
3=Next day add 2 or 3 small fish to the tank "you way use cichlids" and keep the temp. at 82 deg. for a week.
4= opcorn:

By doing this *** never seen ammonia, nitrite or nitrate spikes. Do not touch your filter(s) for 3 months and test your water for nitrate to see when you need to start to do water changes. After tank is running for about 2 weeks and all looks good you can do a small water change "say 15%" and add more fish. From here on out just test for nitrate and you may add fish once a week.

I know i will get gripe from some of you because this isnt a "fishless cycle" but its works and the first 2 or 3 fish do not feel a thing. If we would all give this same advise there would not be 356545665 posts on the subject of i cant get my tank to cycle. Just my 2 cents.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

[b]356545665 posts [/b]

356545666

No "gripe" from me.
But your information is a bit flawed.
Not all of it, the use of "stuff" from an established tank is always a good idea, unless the only thing you can use is the "scuba guy". :lol:


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

356545667 

If you can seed a tank and cycle instantly with fish, then you can seed a tank and cycle instantly fishless. Seeding can be done in either method. It's NOT unique to cycling with fish. And if you get an instant cycle by seeding, then technically you didn't really cyle either way. But, I'm splitting hairs.

I find this is a common misunderstanding about fishless cycling. That it takes a long time. Using fish or not using fish does NOT effect how long it takes to cycle. It's all about seeding the tank and that can be done with either method.

I know I'm repeating myself, but I've seen this stated so often and it's erroneous thinking.

Your methods stated above, *solgood*, would work just as well fishless. They're good methods. If you can seed a tank and get it ready immediately for fish with no spikes, then you can do the same by adding a small amount of ammonia on day 1, test to confirm, and add fish day 2. Actually, you could add a whole tank full of fish. That's one of the benefits of fishless cycling. And you would know that the filter was ready to handle it. Particularly important when stocking a tank of aggressive cichlids, which is what most are doing here.



> what if i was to tell you i no how to cycle a tank in 24 hours


I'd tell you that I know how also and I can do it fishless. Getting a tank quickly ready for fish does not depend on using fish. It has nothing to do with it.

There have been a whole lot of success stories here from people going with fishless cycling and a whole lot of bad experiences from people cycling with fish. Consider those posts also when making your case.

You see, the reason I'm a proponent of fishless cycling is that many who post are setting up a tank for the first time and have no access to media from an established filter. They state that. Whether they should or not doesn't matter. They often state that they don't. So, in that case, fishless is always the better option. And it does take a while with no seeding. And, it would also take a while if you cycle with fish becuase *there's been no seeding*.

Yes, there's a learning curve, but at the end of it they understand the nitrogen cycle. They've learned a skill that they can choose to use on future tanks.

Last point, cycling with fish can be done, but be aware that ammonia damages fish. It really, really does. It can damage fish gills and internal organs. You'd not necessarily 'see' that. Fish can look fine afterward. Fish excrete ammonia continuously. If the ammonia level builds in the water, then they have trouble excreting that ammonia and the damage begins.

So, cycle with fish if you must, but test and be ready to do water changes, and use a detox product to 'bind' the ammonia into a less toxic form, ammonium.

Understand thoroughly either method of cycling before proceeding and you can be successful. I'd discourage adopting the often heard position, "just cycle with a few fish, they'll be fine". There's no learning going on when taking that position. Know and understand the nitrogen cycle. It can help and come in handy far beyond first set up and cycle of a tank.


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## firetiger (Mar 3, 2010)

solgood said:


> OK..... there is about 354676576765 posts on this site on the topic of cycling tanks and most of you are telling people to do a fishless cycle. I understand this does the job but it seems like it takes a long time and is a real pain in the rear. I know this isnt new but what if i was to tell you i no how to cycle a tank in 24 hours.
> 
> step 1= Fill the tank, put gravel or sand in and get the filter(s) running, set heater to about 82 deg.
> 2= Next day take some filter media or gravel, sand, rocks, bio balls, air stone, fake plants, little scuba diver guy with air bubbles coming out of his head. Any thing that has been in a running tank for 3 plus months. Filter media would be the best. If you can place it in the filter(s) on the new tank that would be best. If not just place it in the tank. If this is your first tank talk to your pet store and ask for some thing from one of there tanks. This is your "bio load".
> ...


on point number two, correct me if I am wrong but this is not your "bio load" your fish are the "bio load". and if I may ask a question as well. will just placing the filter media in the tank directly be beneficial at all? as it needs good waterflow and oxygen to survive? it seems alot of times you hear of squeezing the filter pads contents into the water will this be as beneficial or not so much as "floating" the pad in the water? also in my experience asking a lfs for some media or media squeezings from one of their tanks is usually answered with a NO. they don't want to be held responsible if you end up killing off all your fish. thanks for the step by step though.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> and if I may ask a question as well. will just placing the filter media in the tank directly be beneficial at all? as it needs good waterflow and oxygen to survive? it seems alot of times you hear of squeezing the filter pads contents into the water will this be as beneficial or not so much as "floating" the pad in the water?


I float media when I can't add it to the filter, and believe it to be more beneficial than 'squeezings'. The nitrifying bacteria adhere to surfaces typically and you may not get many by just squeezing gunk out of the filter pads. You may get quite a bit of heterotrophic bacteria, but not the same thing. Heterotrophs break down the organics into ammonia that the nitrifiers then work on.



> on point number two, correct me if I am wrong but this is not your "bio load" your fish are the "bio load".


You're right, what the fish excrete is the bioload, not the items used to 'seed' a tank.


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## firetiger (Mar 3, 2010)

wow ok thanks for that info! I didn't know anything about the heterotrophic bacteria and what it does. I will try seeding some filter media and floating it in the 265 when I do my cycle. :thumb:


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