# Newbie BRC



## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

I have a 20g tank with 5 Bolivian Rams I believe i have 2 males 3 females. I have the tank pretty well planted and they just seem to be hanging out on the bottom not doing anything. is that normal? My nitrates were high so i did a 50 % water change.

I also have a jaguar catfish that is in there with them. Hes is very tiny. This tank was to hopefully get some breeding out of them. Its a rocky pebble bottom will that hinder their ability to breed. small pebbles. I will get a picture of my tank shortly. I would like to get any advice possible since i see so many people are involved with the BRC..


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## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

Here are the pictures




























and 1 picture of my actual tank setup.


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## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

can some one also tell me a way of determining weather or not there is a male and female in my tank... a sure fire way.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I can't help you with sexing them, I was never able to properly sex mine. But if you take a look through the Bolivian ram club thread, you should find the info you need there.

I really wouldn't advise trying to keep this many in this size tank, unless it's a really long one. I would remove the extra 3 as soon as a pair forms, especially if you're interested in breeding. You might wait long enough to see if the pair you keep are good parents or not. Many aren't.

How high were those nitrates? Are they still above 20? If so, you may need to do frequent water changes for a bit. I find these fish to be especially sensitive to water quality.

How long has this tank been set up?

Are those fake plants?


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## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

i have 3 females 2 males. im gonna wait and see if they pair off. tank has been almost going for a month now maybe longer not exactly sure but the nitrates are ok now i believe

plants are half fake half real :/


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## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

In all honesty i am not going back to the petstore im not removing anything from tank right now i am tired of going on the run around trying to figure out what is best for my fish and what are the best fish to put in my tank

I have no money left i have 2 tanks now instead of 1 and i am just tired of trying. so if they die they die. if they spawn the spawn if my tank cracks cause of some random earthquake soaks my computer and ruins everything next to it then so be it but what ever happens happens

i give.


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## Isis24 (Dec 10, 2008)

Don't be upset  Your Bolivians look tiny, and if that's true, they'll be ok for awhile. Just try to relax and enjoy the tanks you have!! When the bolivians pair off, then you can bring 3 of them back. Until then, you're ok!!

Don't stress yourself out over this. If you want to be in the hobby long term, you have to enjoy it, rather than be stressed out by it.

Your tank is well-planted, and the bolvians can hide if they feel like it.

Don't give up!


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## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

the rams have been in tank for 1 day, they are a bit more roamish so far but no territory has been claimed that i know of and no pairing off yet so obviously there is too much for them to look over in 1 day my biggest ram is maybe 1 inch long they do seem to nip at each other a lot no one looks injured though

the thing is i thought i finally found a tank set up that i could be happy with and instead its like u shouldn't have that many fish..

i have been to 5 pet shops 2 tanks 2 weeks and i still cant find something im doing right. it seems that if u dont have a tank over 20 g u shouldn't have cichlids at all.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Newbreed said:


> In all honesty i am not going back to the petstore im not removing anything from tank right now i am tired of going on the run around trying to figure out what is best for my fish and what are the best fish to put in my tank
> 
> I have no money left i have 2 tanks now instead of 1 and i am just tired of trying. so if they die they die. if they spawn the spawn if my tank cracks cause of some random earthquake soaks my computer and ruins everything next to it then so be it but what ever happens happens
> 
> i give.


I can assure you that having that kind of attitude isn't going to get you very far in the hobby, and it won't get you alot of help, either.

IMO, we have a responsibility when we take on pets. If you don't want to be responsible for them, leave them at the pet store.

Perhaps you should ask the questions _before_ you buy the fish???

If the tank has only been set up for a month, you should be checking water parameters. You should be checking ammonia, nitrite, nitrates and ph. If you can't afford the test kits, then you should get the LFS to check them.

How did you cycle the tank before adding the rams?

You are right, there are very few cichlids suitable for this size tank. It can be done, but you've got to do your homework or get advise from a reliable source in order to do it properly. SA dwarves are a good option, but you have to take the size of the tank into consideration as all bets are off once the fish start to pair off and spawn.

What are the dimensions of the tank, by the way?

I had two breeding pairs of rams in a 4 foot tank, and sometimes, that wasn't big enough for their attitude at spawning time.


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## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

its your standard 20g tall tank, i tried to do a bit of research before buying the fish but it seems that everything i was told is wrong.. i agree that when u take on pets u take on the responsibility. Here i am doing the best i can to be responsible

My main problem is i want this to work, but i dont have money to go buy new fish, new tank, or any other fish. so i guess im going to have to let them do waht ever they are going to do.

my 4 rams seem to fight alot over 1 corner of my tank while there is 1 solo ram off in the other corner.

I enjoy watching the fish swim and i enjoy the hobby. but like i said every where i go people have opinions of what should be done and it seems that every thing i have heard has been wrong. so what should i do

Take all 5 rams out take them back to the store and just wait till i have more money to try another species.

First was aratus in my 20g then electric yellows then was pulchers then bolivan rams and this is all in a 2 week span cause im trying to figure out the best cichlid setup for my tank... Should i just give up? and quit with cichlids go with tetra's or gobies

Or does some one want to help and give me a specific plan for my 10 g and 20 g tanks.


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## Isis24 (Dec 10, 2008)

In the 20G, you can still do a pair of Bolivian Rams. Dwarf or Pygmy cories are really cute for the bottom, and you can add small tetras for the top. If you want fry, tetras apparently eat them, so stay away from tetras. Instead, you can go with marbled hatchet fish (advice from another C-F member), because they stay at the top of the tank, and don't get too big either.

For your 10 gallon, how about 1 or 2 dwarf Gouramis? I had honey gouramis at one point, and they stay really small (smaller than dwarf gouramis). Or you could do a betta. Or a school of small tetras. Or maybe harlequin rasboras.


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

Newbreed said:


> my 4 rams seem to fight alot over 1 corner of my tank while there is 1 solo ram off in the other corner.


I would give this excellent sexing guide a look over and see if you can sex your Rams:
http://brc.moonfruit.com/#/sexingguide/4528902946
Yours look really small and young so this may not be possible.
The following is totally amateurish advice, but it's _possible_ (not likely, but possible) that the four squabblers are males and the solo Ram is a female. If you've exhausted your sexing skills, grab the three poorest looking squabblers and take them back to the pet store. If you call first (always call first!) they may even give you a credit. Who knows, maybe what you'll have left will be a male and a female.

I myself have a 29 gallon with 3 males and 1 female. They have little chases but have never had anything close to a big fight. My plants and driftwood do carve out some pretty nice territories though. They've been together for almost a year with 12 Rummynose tetras, 3 cories and a Bristlenose catfish. My Rams have never come close to spawning, but I love the action in my tank, and I feel pretty confident that everyone's happy.

So finding a mating pair, in my opinion, is not the be-all to end-all.



Newbreed said:


> Or does some one want to help and give me a specific plan for my 10 g and 20 g tanks.


Is your 10 in use? If it's cycled, maybe you want to keep it running as a hospital/quarantine/time out tank while you sort out your Ram population. Once things have stabilized in your 20, I would vote for a few swordtails and a BN Pleco. Mollies, guppies, platys, etc bore me to tears, but I think swordtails look great. Just my two cents.

Don't let this get you down, but take a deep breath and do some reading and planning before your next move. Speed is not a virtue in the aquarium hobby!

kevin


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

G'day *Newbreed*,

Welcome to C-F, and joys of fish keeping.

Mate, don't despair. Many, many beginners have been where you have been. Unfortunately many LFS don't give the best advice as more often than not they're concerned about making the sale, than they are about the customer. Also I have seen noobies given some not so good advice on forums as well.

I think for the time being, seeing as your broke, you're going to have to stay with what you have. That your rams are juveniles gives you a bit of time to explore possible options for what you would like to do down the road. At 1 inch there is no way anyone could tell what sex they are, and there won't be any spawning behaviour for a few months.

Right now my first concern is whether your tank is cycled. Do you know about the nitrogen cycle? And when you do a water change do you use a water conditioner such as prime?

With your current set up and bolivian rams, you should think about changing to a sand substrate as soon as you can. Having that 10 gallon tank will come in handy as you can keep your fish in there while you rescape the 20 gallon tank. This can be done relatively cheaply, and when you are ready to do it, post a new topic here asking how to do it quickly, easily and safely.

OK thinking long term now.

There is quite a lot of information you will need to provide us.

First thing would be your PH. Here is a quote from another article from the C-F library;


> pH is probably the single most important property to understand and monitor. It refers to water being acidic, basic (alkaline) or neutral. With a measurement of 7 being neutral, less than 7 is acidic and greater than 7 is alkaline.


Can you tell us about your current setups. What type of filters and heaters are you using? What type of lighting do you have on your tank?

Long term you will have to decide whether you want to upgrade tanks to an appropriate sized tank, or look at another species of cichlid that may suite a 20 gallon tall tank. If you want to keep your rams, I think you would need atleast a 40 gallon breeder tank, 36"x18"x16".


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## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

Wow, Well thats alot of stuff to look over. That is also alot of stuff for me to figure out  Ill do my best over the next couple of weeks to figure out all of waht u asked for.

my 20 gallon tank is 24 long x16 high x12 wide

my 10 gallon is 20 x 13 x 10 ? i am guessing thats what i got with the tape measure.

As for the PH in my water i have no idea the levels it is at. I should get that checked.

I went to my LFS yesterday and took my water in to get tested they said to do a 50 % change so i did added water conditioner, some bacteria. They said that i was about 1 week from finishing the cycle. I am hoping that will be fine.

Filters i am using a Whisper Power Filter. on my 20 gallon tank. Heater is All Glass Aquarium 100w 120v adjustable heater. on the 10g just what ever came with the box. um a tertra 2-15 heater. and an Aqua tech filter? it was a 10g i bought from wal-mart The lighting on my tank are 2 bulbs for the 10g that i think are 10 watt's? and the 20g has a bar lamp the one that goes across the top and has the long white bulb in it. Sorry i am very new and dont know exactly what they are.

Tomorrow i am going to go to my LFS and ask them if i can work for free to learn the hobby better. Even maybe work for tank's if that makes sense. See if i can strike a deal to work for them for a month or 2 and get a 55 gallon out of working.

My rams are tiny. Max 1 inch. i have 5 of them. and a jaguar catfish.

My 10 gallon is still cycling and has 3 really really small pulchers in it less than 1 inch each one 2 females 1 male. Something just to give the tank personality while it cycles. I have been doing 2 gallons per week on the 10g just to keep water levels safe.

As for sexing my fish i have looked i cant tell they are too small.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Mate that catfish is going to grow to 7 inches, way to big long term for your tank. You would be far better off asking your LFS if they would take it back in trade for a juvenile bristlenose catfish.

I'm off to work right now, so hopefully a few of the other guys n gals can chip in, and I'll see where the thread is at in about 12 hours.


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## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

With help from the people in chat i have decided to take back the rams and get a few more pulchers. Move the pulchers from 10g tank to 20g tank and wait for them to pair. Use the 10g tank as a fry tank and see if i can get them to pair in the 20 and remove the un paired ones and take them back to the fish store.


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## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

Deadfish, Tell me what u personally think i should do. Pulchers are very pretty and i was told they breed like roaches and are a lot easier to take care of for new people of the hobby.

my plan.

Take the rams, and catfish back to the store. Trade for 2 more females 1 more male. that will make 4 females 2 males. Maybe buy sand with money left over.

If have sand. Will float new pulchers in 10g tank and release while i scoop rocks from 20g then replace bottom with sand and move pulchers to new tank

Does this sound like a good plan to go for. Or just stick with my rams and see how things turn out?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

A 20G _tall_ tank is more restrictive than a 20G _long_ tank would be.

Basically, the floor space of your tank is all that really matters with cichlids. They are highly territorial, but they consider the available territories as the bottom of the tank rather than the upper portions of it. So anytime you have a longer tank, you have better odds.

You can keep rams in this tank, I just don't believe you can keep 5 rams in this tank long term.

But, as has been pointed out, right now you've got a very risky situation going on. It's best NOT to add fish you intend to keep long term to an uncycled tank. You should be monitoring the water quality daily...But since you don't have any money and you don't have your own test kits AND you already have fish in there that you plan to keep, you're going to need to do water changes every day on the tank. I would remove and replace at least 50%. This may extend your completed cycle time a bit, but it will also save the lives of your fish.

As far as volunteering at the LFS, you aren't going to learn much if they are the ones who have advised you so far. Your best bet is to ask questions here, and wait for answers before doing something.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Hey *Newbreed*,

When you say _pulchers_, do you mean kribensis or blue acara? I'm assuming you're talking kribensis.

I think *cichlidaholic* has given you some very good advice.

My personal advice would be to keep the rams you have, grow them out and waite for a pair to form. Then you return the unpaired fish for store credit. I do think the idea of using the 10g tank as a fry tank is a good one, but we'll need to talk a little more about that later.

As *cichlidaholic* mentioned, cycling your tank, with minimal harm to your current fish, should be the main priority for now. Once this is done, you can look to switching out your gravel for sand.


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## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

Kept the rams, Transferred the kribies to my moms tank and mom got rid of her guppies.

did another 30% water change today, added 2 more small rock caves. 4 more plants and 2 more rams to maybe increase the chances of finding a good pair.

I will be sticking with these rams till i get a pair removing the rest of the rams who have not paired and taking them back to the LFS


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