# Wholesale business and hybrids



## TKC747 (Dec 5, 2008)

I posted this on another forum, but the audience is limited so here goes:

My LFS says they get their fish from Wholesalers. I presume wholesalers will breed fish in species only tanks. I am worried about getting hybrids. I might want to scale down my ambitions (no more BAPs) into just breeding cichlids for "show tanks" not to breed for future breeders. With species such as yellow labs and mainganos, the chance of hybridization with similar species or not, e.g. yellow lab X M. Estherae and maingano X melanchromis whatever is high. How exactly responsible are wholesalers? Is there a code of ethics?

Can anyone provide a hoop of sorts on this topic. I imagine LFS which take juvies from the average hobbyist will have more chance of carrying hybrids. Whats the scoop? Anyone know?

Thanks (I hope this isn't a loaded topic)

Tom


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

The mass market business is only concerned with fish that will sell as juveniles. That is all they are about, there are not much ethics really. Fish are a product, one they hope will shift product off of the "shelves" at a steady pace. Most of the common Malawi cichlds are fish that are attractive when juveniles, they don't really care what they will look like when adults. Haps and peacocks may be hormoned at some point so they will have colors that will sell quickly. Some Haps and Peacocks are intentional hybrids because they will sell when small. It is about producing a sellable product.

Sometimes it is in the interest of the breeders to keep the fish pure, so they maintain purity so the juveniles will look all the same, and colorful, so they will sell. Now with Red Zebras and Yellow Labs, the hybrid fry are attractive and will sell, they have even done it on purpose, Petsmart used to carry them all the time a few years ago.

The Maingano hybrids also sell well as "Electric blue Johanni", so as long as buyers buy them, the mass market breeders have no incentive to sell pure fish. The breeders may not even think that Maingano/Johanni/ and Interrruptus are different fish. Many people have been going by the information from the old 70's Tropical Fish Hobbyist books for years, and ignore more current info.

As for local shops, there is ignorance with many sellers. I would think that a LFS with people who work there who like Cichlids are the most trustworthy place.
And an indepedent store owner has to worry about staying in the black, and wants to sell fish, and they may turn a blind eye to ethics. They are not going to destroy fish that may be hybrids, they need cash.

It's just buyer beware. Be picky.


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## Fisherman727 (Sep 20, 2008)

Hi Tom,

Thank you for your interesting question.

Basically, large commercial wholesalers do not breed fish themselves. They buy fish from other sources. Some of those sources actually sell African cichlids that are not bred in the United States, but come from Asia. These large commercial wholesalers also provide fish to the large chain pet stores, such as Pets Mart, here in Florida. The large chain pet stores cannot buy from the small local breeders. Their central offices have contracts with a few large wholesalers, and that is where they get their fish.

A privately owned LFS has the flexibility of buying from anyone. They buy fish from large wholesalers, smaller local wholesalers, and private breeders. Your LFS may not know where to acquire quality F0 or F1 African cichlids. The cichlid part of their business might be small, or they do not have the interest or knowledge about African Cichlids. Your best bet to find quality fish is to find a LFS that has the interest, knowledge and sources to obtain the fish that you seek.

You can actually find several sources from among the sponsors of this website that will sell species. In addition, you can check out the Review Section of this website, and search for a LFS, in your area, that has been recommended by other members.

Good Luck !


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## cichlidhopper (May 12, 2008)

Wholesalers do not care.

I have seen color enhanced fish that come from these.

It is almost impossible to buy a pure bred peacock that comes through these people.

If you get fish you can get anything they even at times buy fish that have been treated with steroids. They look at one thing bottom line figures. I agree if you want best quality buy from breeders or LFS's that buy from breeders.

If you go in Petsmart or Pertco They may have a Aulonocara Baenschi as a "Sunshine Peacock" 
So they sell this as a sunshine peacock..lol
A "sunshine peacock" is a Aulonocara Stuartgranti Maleri

Also let me say you have some breeders that are hybridizing fish. They say they have created their own strain.

In no uncertain terms can you create a pure strain of fish in less than 2 years. What I mean by that is you can't have a hybrid strain that will throw true fry when you spawn them in less than 2 years. It takes generations. You can color enhance a breed and get a diiferent color. It took 8 years to get the super red empress to throw pure fry. They are line bred. You can't get Super Red empress to cross with OB's to throw pure fry in less than 2 years. It takes many generations of fry to breed back to do this. Don't be taken in by people that say they do this. It is genetically impossible.

The employee's are hired cause they need a job. They have no clue about fish.


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## Wayne Quinn (Jan 24, 2008)

To petshops, fish are money, thats all, no more no less. They will buy what will sell. The same goes for physical products other than fish also.

In Reference to My Personal OB Red Empress Strain so evidently brought up here by a new comer to fish, Have a peak at the fish in question, then the fry, and 4 bred generations with the 5th growing, thats pretty accurate. Most medium sized Haps will spawn at 3-4" and especially in the Protomelas class, they will spawn repeatedly in that size range. To bring a juvenile to breedable size, 3-4" it require meticulous care and about 6 months per group. 6 months....1 male....3 generations of females, and the brood from the most recent generation is growing, about 5/8" now. thats less than 2 years. I would imagine anyone who has kept and bred fish for more than 2 years might know things about breeding that those who are newer, do not. And in this, I speak for all breeders who have 8,9,10 or more years experience being FAR advanced over those who don't have more than 1-2 years experience. And in your personal regard, you don't, and don't bring your personal matter to this website.


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## cichlidhopper (May 12, 2008)

This is not personal. I have discussed this with a person that has kept Super reds much longer than you. He has also kept Cichlids longer than you have been alive. It can't happen.

You would have to take that up with him. 
A difference in opinion is not personal. He says nothing about the mouth structure or the 
color in the fins is Empress. He has 3 different strains and has kept them for many years. 
He looked it over throughly and we discussed all aspects of the fish.

As well as talking to another friend that has been in cichlids for 41 years. 
He said the same about pure strains of hybrids. Both of these people have been breeding cichlids longer than you have been alive Wayne. They both said you can't create a pure strain in that time frame. They will not be garanteed to throw pure fry.

This is not personal it is knowledge. 
If you sell fry and they spawn they may not have pure OB fry like the parents. 
They have not been line bred long enough.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

let's just say that it would be pretty rare for fish to become fully true breeding in as short a time frame as Wayne has gone through so far with his new hybrid breed.

Anyone with a background in breeding/ genetics will admit that there should be no surprises with the randomness of genes, including true breeding after only 4 generations.

Rare is all you could suggest...


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## Wayne Quinn (Jan 24, 2008)

Define "Breeds True" in your own words, cause in the past 18 years of breeding and keeping fish, that means the genetic make-up looks the same, out side of examining blood test etc etc. Breeding true means that the chosen males/females will spawn full OB all the time, and this case, the Origional was a Standard Red Empress, first cross creates mixed, second, creates a 17% line, 3rd creates a 38-45% line, 3rd creates a 75% line, and 4th, well this would ALMOST pure OB Red Empress, hence the given title.


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## Wayne Quinn (Jan 24, 2008)

....and out of the wood work comes the worms.

Roger, what is breeding true? ask your experienced friends also.

Breeding true, means it will throw 100% like fry ALL the time. I have a FULL generation of like-fry, and a large group of juvenile that are like-fish, meaning, almost identical with no deformities or odd traits. I will say no more, as this can be debated all day long....I have shown the result of this in the photo contest, enough said, that should be enough visual proof that something like this just isn't possible because some folks can't see very well. Have a nice night everyone else. :wink:


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## cichlidhopper (May 12, 2008)

Your usual adult behavior. If you don't agree with you, you start calling people names.
Wayne just a simple disagreement

Well then you do not know what line breeding is. 
I will be sure to post pics of the type of fish keeping you do.

Line breeding is when you raise fish and take the best quality fish and breed them back. 
You can't do that in 2 years. No more than you can put 18,000 gals of water in a 420 Sq, ft building.
That fish is no more than a color enhanced OB Peacock.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

cichlidhopper said:


> Your usual adult behavior. If you don't agree with you, you start calling people names.
> Wayne just a simple disagreement
> 
> Well then you do not know what line breeding is.
> ...


With good luck there is no reason one can't do it in 2 years. With genetics its all about luck. Ahaha I know so many scientists who spend their time hoping with their fingers crossed. :lol:


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## cichlidhopper (May 12, 2008)

Well I am not here to cause problems.

This is a great site. I just know this guys history and I can post some things he has said and done in the past that would explain this.

He posts on another site he is running just over 18,400 gals of water. In a 420 Sq. Ft. building.
Well if you can do math. The water would have to be almost 6 ft deep in that building to do that.

I like this site and do not want to be banned or I would really let people know who and what he is.

I believe his exact words to me when I first met him were.

I HATE HYRIDS AND DO NOT CROSS BREED OR HYBIRDIZE ANY FISH.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Wayne Quinn said:


> first cross creates mixed, second, creates a 17% line, 3rd creates a 38-45% line, 3rd creates a 75% line, and 4th, well this would ALMOST pure OB Red Empress, hence the given title.


 There are so many assumptions in the above that it's hard to have an open dialog...

Basic inheritance patterns are jsut that... basic. They don't always (or even often) play out this simply when we are dealing with hybridization. With that said, we are dealing with the cross of two linebred breeds, so it might be working out as you describe. Still, if you've been breeding as long as you claim, you've no doubt experienced the usual throwbacks and oddities. I would say it would be very rare for you to have experienced none of these in the new breed you are working towards.

As for a photo or two of specimens, that proves nothing. One would expect some successes or else you would have had to scrap the entire lot. It is the exceptions that are of the most interest in defining true breeding or not true breeding.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Wayne Quinn said:


> Breeding true, means it will throw 100% like fry ALL the time. I have a FULL generation of like-fry, and a large group of juvenile that are like-fish, meaning, almost identical with no deformities or odd traits. I will say no more, as this can be debated all day long....I have shown the result of this in the photo contest, enough said, that should be enough visual proof that something like this just isn't possible because some folks can't see very well. Have a nice night everyone else. :wink:


and yet...



Wayne Quinn said:


> the adult females are from my true empress line which throw 8-10 ob from each brood, and the rest, typically 20+ others are standard when grown to 1.5"


So, are they breeding 100% like, or not?


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## vman (Apr 15, 2008)

1st thing is that is a nice ob peacock you have . I've seen many like in the past few years . They go by many different names & if you want to call yours a Red Emp ob :thumb: . I have over 44 yrs raising Cichlids & 35 yrs keeping & breeding Red Empress . I have 3 strains of Super Red Empress that has taken about 20 yrs without any steroids . So you have had 4 generations of breeding in app. 2 yrs with a fish that takes 8-9 months to become sexually mature . That doesn't add up . This fish has no outward traits of a Red Emp just like a german red ob you passed of to another guy who posted it as that even though it didn't have any red to orange color at all. This is a quote from you on another site " Been in the hobby for a very long time, currently running a 420 sq ft building with just over 18,400 gallons, 153 tanks, 16 indoor ponds, and a 1/3 wall system which is all native" You are a magician if you can pull that off in a 20.5'x20.5' building with a garage door :thumb:. I have 385 gal of water in my breeding room which is crowded at 170 sq feet. In my opinion this ob is just another ob peacock hybrid bought at a lfs . you can call it what you want just like you can put 18,400 gal of water in a 420 ' building . :wink:


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Some messages have been removed. This is not the place to take private discussion material public.

Get back on topic please and thanks.


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## Wayne Quinn (Jan 24, 2008)

I apologize Number6, it was not any intention of mine to have these two come and attempt to start this here. Sorry to the creator of the thread as well.


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## TKC747 (Dec 5, 2008)

Getting back on topic, on that other forum I mentioned the advice was terse but good. Someone added to that post that wholesalers who get their fish from either asia or the czech republic are not good sources. The advice was to know your source, buy from reputable people who can be vouched for. After reading Fogelhunds post on another thread that most yellow labs at the LFSs were hybrids of labs and m. estherae, I got paranoid and saw hybrids everywhere. I finally convinced myself that I was blowing things out of proportion. I should have listened to the advice on the other forum. The first response said to "Relax" I finally did, and my blood pressure is down too. They say if it walks like a duck, it is a duck...

Tom


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## Wayne Quinn (Jan 24, 2008)

It is difficult to say what is what in most petshops now. I know of a few in NW Illinois that are very strict on what they have and where it comes from, and I know of others that aren't concerned as long as it is colorful and has the potential to sell, even if - for example - it was a gourami/jack dempsey hybrid (no not possible), but they would house and try to sell it because of the colors on it. Some just have no morale in regards to accuracy of species, whether selling as a specific, or as a general species.

IE: Solid Yellow Labs, this is a Estherae hybrid, but they wouldn't dare tell you it's a mutt. but once you realized the nature of the true lab, and the zebra, you would know it wasn't a full lab, and has significantly more aggression


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## cichlidhopper (May 12, 2008)

OK Lets try this again.

It is not just the wholesalers to blame here. It is also the breeders. 
You have to depend on the integrity of them saying apples are apples and oranges are oranges. If they are selling apples as oranges then there is no integrity from any of the suppliers. Some have absolutely no integrity and ship what they want buyers to have regardless of what was ordered. 
The problem is it does not just come from a LFS where a guy was hired because he needs a job. It comes from online breeders with no integrity as well as online wholesalers with no integrity. I have ordered fish from what were supposed to be good reputable breeder and got very little of what I ordered. I also just recently recieved a shipment from a large online wholesaler. The wholesaler did exactly what they said as far as shipping and on time delivery with all live fish. All the bags were marked properly except one fish was wrong. 
They made it right instantly. With the online breeder on the other hand only 3 of 11 fish I ordered were right and it took a threat of a lawsuit to get my money refunded. 
I might say that most all of the shipment was dead due to improper shipping. 
It should never take 5 weeks to ship a order you are told will ship in 5 days. If it does ask for a refund don't continue to wait. There is a major problem. In this case the breeder did not have the fish they promised. So after continued harrassment they scooped up a bunch of fry and sent them out.

So again I picked up a fish at the LFS that had been color enhanced. Looked to be a beautiful Red Shoulder. I was not aware of the color enhancement at the time of purchase. When it started fading and turned out to be a female red shoulder and created many pronlems in my all male show tank. I contacted the LFS and he replaced the fish. I also emailed his supplier to inform them of the colored up fish.

The good honest ones will do the right thing the others you have to deal with in a harsh reality.

The point is if you can trust the people you are dealing with even if they are giving the wrong thing they make it right. Sometimes the ones you think you know are the ones you have to watch.

This has become such a cutthroat business that they will sell if it crosses or hybridizes. Most only look at the bottom line dollar figues. If they get a spawn and know it has crossed they still pass it out the door just for the money.

We are moving into the world of designer fish. A friend was telling me one of the major chains was advertsing 5 tanks of hybrids. One being Fryeri/Azureus. People that know won't buy people that don't only see a pretty blue fish with no clue and take them home.
If the guy at the pet store says don't buy that it is a cross bred fish he loses his or her job if they even know. So if the big chains see dollars people we will have to get these fish from people we know personally of never be sure. All the breeder fish will have to be wild caught and then you will know. Scary that my great grand babies may never see these beautiful fish pure bred.

Breeders and wholesalers will provide more and more hybrids if they want to sell them.

BTW One of Ad Konings books does show a all Yellow Lab from the lake. So you can't say the are all crossed. I will see if I can post a pic for you.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

cichlidhopper said:


> It comes from online breeders with no integrity as well as online wholesalers with no integrity.


I don't think "online" matters... I'd say hobby level breeders, or local mom n pop wholesales can be as guilty of what you mention.



cichlidhopper said:


> BTW One of Ad Konings books does show a all Yellow Lab from the lake. So you can't say the are all crossed. I will see if I can post a pic for you.


Not to spawn a giant tangent, but the female yellow labs still show the black markings, even when they fade to a point where they won't show in a photo. So, yes, you could find a photo without obvious black markings showing up, but it doesn' mean the fish doesn't have the true characteristic.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

Number6 said:


> cichlidhopper said:
> 
> 
> > It comes from online breeders with no integrity as well as online wholesalers with no integrity.
> ...


Chromatophores can make the most desirable fish look like Scheisse. :lol:


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## cichlidhopper (May 12, 2008)

Number6 I tend to agree. 
I do think the majority of the fish that get in the hobby are from these larger ones. 
I can't get these locals to buy my fish at the LFS's I have to get more than 2.00 for a 2.5 to 3 inch fish. People that know my fish know the qualit y of the fish I breed. 
Rubin Red Breeder male








Fryeri Spawned from my group








This is an example of my quality of fish. 
I am not breeding the Rubin male. I have not found enough quality females. 
I have a great line of Dolphin's.
I am looking for some quality female OB's to put with mine. 
I have silver saum GT's and Firemouths.

If you have to sell the fish so cheap you can't afford to raise them. Then it becomes nonproductive. I have a small operation. I want to expand and start a online site. I will still only sell quality fish not cross bred or man made fish. I will not throw different fish in together and try to create new strains of fish. If I can't sell them then I will remain a hobbist and enjoy you guys and my fish. Most of all my customers will be the most important part of my business.

I pride myself in being honest as my parents taught me. Deception brings disaster. Your business is only as good as your work ethics. I will never say I won't make a mistake. I will say I would never intentionally lie to the people or decieve them. 
If the small operations would keep the integrity going there would at least be some faith in mankind.

That's all I have to say about that. (Forrest Gump) Smarter than anyone gave him credit for.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

cichlidhopper said:


> I am looking for some quality female OB's to put with mine.
> 
> I will still only sell quality fish not cross bred or man made fish.


uhhh... which OBs are you talking about? :lol:


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## cichlidhopper (May 12, 2008)

Darkside I get your point that OB's are hybrid fish. But not by me.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Further posts were removed.

Let the past stay in the past or all messages related to "event x" will be deleted without further notification.

Thank you for your consideration in this matter.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

cichlidhopper said:


> Darkside I get your point that OB's are hybrid fish. But not by me.


Not all OB's are hybrids though. It depends on which fish/species you are referring to.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

Fogelhund said:


> cichlidhopper said:
> 
> 
> > Darkside I get your point that OB's are hybrid fish. But not by me.
> ...


Exactly, although I'm pretty sure that peacock is line bred, making it man-made as well. :lol:


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

OB Peacocks are hybrids though. :thumb:


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

Darkside said:


> Fogelhund said:
> 
> 
> > cichlidhopper said:
> ...


Or is Rubin red a trade name of an actual fish that I am unaware of?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Darkside said:


> Darkside said:
> 
> 
> > Fogelhund said:
> ...


Rubin Red, German Red... are all Man Made fish.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

man this thread is long lived

i just kind of browsed the last page and had a few questions about comments made
in the retail/whosale world, wholesale usually is done by the manufacturer itself, and retailers tend to buy from wholesale to distribute to public for profit
someone stated that wholesale outlets that get their fish from certain breeders tend not to be reliable, if someone is selling cichlids they purchased from a breeder, they are retailers, not wholesale.

places like live fish direct are considered wholesale, they breed everything they sell so they can sell it at very low cost to us, and also they sell to retailers who mark up the price on the fish to make a profit, the more hands the fish go through the more they are marked up, a true wholesale outlet should in theory be the breeder, so if you don't trust them, then you shouldn't trust the retailer

when it comes to retailers you need to know where they buy their stock (the wholesale outlet), if you know that the breeder is good then you can be confident in the retail stock, just have to face paying the retail prices


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

cjacob316 said:


> man this thread is long lived
> 
> i just kind of browsed the last page and had a few questions about comments made
> in the retail/whosale world, wholesale usually is done by the manufacturer itself, and retailers tend to buy from wholesale to distribute to public for profit
> ...


Wholesalers in the hobby act as distributors. Fish come from African via exporters who work lake side, these fish are exported to an import facility these importers act as distributors. Importers send their shipments to wholesale outfits or act as wholesale outfits themselves. There are several different companies that work on the lakes and offer fish to the trade but are virtually unavailable to the hobbyist. Which is how the importers make money on the hobby, besides the fact that they have the experience and equipment to handle the large shipments that the exporters require to make it worth their while.
Some importers distribute stock directly to breeding outfits that also act as retail outlets, some ship to different wholesale companies. Wholesale companies typically deal with several importers in order to bring fish from around the world to retail outlets. Making the wholesale outfits worthwhile to the retailer.
A wholesaler doesn't need to be a breeder, they are a distributor. Some breeders produce fish at wholesale cost and large outfits are wholesalers of captive bred fish. And while retail outlets do mark up the price of products and livestock the prices they pay for the products are much cheaper than those available to the hobbyist. I'm sure that all whole sale outlets that also offer retail services mark up their fish when dealing directly with the public as opposed to when they deal with a business. Businesses buy in bulk and are repeat customers, this keeps the prices offered by wholesalers low and keeps the retailers competitive with online stores. That is unless you know an online store where they're offering multies for 50 cents a piece, which would be more inline with the wholesale cost for the fish.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

my local retailers buy from breeders, where they pay roughly 8 bucks for a fish then turn around and sell the fish for 30+

i found an online place where i can order fish and get what i pay for, and for much less than my local places, i've seen their breeding facilty and i am confident in their work, i know that they keep their breeding groups separatedand the fry. the fish i have recived look great, and are not juiced up, so i guess it just depends on who it is and where you get your fish, some people actually do right by the fish and the hobby


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