# Overflow question



## cchldcpl (Jan 6, 2015)

Hi everyone, 
My wife and I are new to the site and are just now getting back into the hobby after long absences for the both of us. We have purchased a 4ft 75g but are taking things slow. We know we want to do a Malawi hap/peacock setup but we want to automate the maintenance as much as possible as cheaply as possible. We are going to put in UGJ's, a cheap trickle down filter into a sump, and a drip system to eliminate water changes. Our question is can we use one PVC overflow on an undrilled tank, split off with one line going to the filter, and the other going to a drain? Any help you all can give us would be greatly appreciated we have already gotten so many great ideas from this site...


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## joescaper1 (Feb 14, 2013)

Make the trickle down the drain come from your sump.


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## Narwhal72 (Sep 26, 2006)

I agree. The drip system will not work unless the drain for it is coming from the sump.

Otherwise the new water coming in will just fill up the sump until it overflows. And you can't run the drain from a split off from the tank as it will be draining out water faster than the drip system will put it into the system.

Andy


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

You could if you put a very good shutoff valve on the drain side but unless your sump is lower than the drain, draining from the sump is a better idea.


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## Narwhal72 (Sep 26, 2006)

> You could if you put a very good shutoff valve on the drain side


In order for that to work you would need to put the drain in a submerged area of the aquarium. A sensor and solenoid would then need to be installed in the sump to detect a high water level. When the water level gets high, the sensor would then need to signal the solenoid to open the drain valve. This would drop the water level in the sump. The sensor would then deactivate the drain and close it when the water level returned to normal.

It can be done. But it adds a lot of complexity to the system and the risk of failure is high. The system depends on the sensor and solenoid working properly. If one of these components should fail, there is no failsafe and the sump will overflow.

Andy


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Turn the valve on then off manually when the desired volume of old water is removed. Automation is nice, but not required. You would have to turn off the trickle of new water any time you leave. Draining from the sump is still the best choice. A pan with a backup drain under the sump is not a bad idea.


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## Narwhal72 (Sep 26, 2006)

> Turn the valve on then off manually when the desired volume of old water is removed. Automation is nice, but not required.


But the OP wants to install a drip system. This is a 24 hour continuous system. You don't turn it on or off manually.

It would also only work if the only volume of water you wish to remove is the volume of the sump. Because that is all that is going to drain out before the sump pump runs dry.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Nar, I have a friend with about a hundred tanks so far all set up with a drip system. All the tanks drain directly to a catchpan, and then combined overflow to a drain in the floor. He can turn off his trickle system if he wants to but does not need to unless he is adding or replacing a tank. Keep in mind, I said the best way to do this is to drain the water from the sump. I only pointed out it is possible to drain from the tank the way asked about, and I may have intimated most of the difficulties and attention it would take to do it this cumbersome way. When my son was in junior high school about 30 years ago he set up such a system on several racks of his saltwater aquariums. It required constant fiddling. Once in a while he would spill some water. Behind the wall was my wife's walkin closet. She would have a fit each time she found saltwater seeping under the wall on to her floor. Like I said, I don't recommend it, but is it impossible? No. What we both agree on is the angst, constant attention, and probable puddles such a system entails.


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## Narwhal72 (Sep 26, 2006)

McD,
Does your friend have a drip system AND a recirculating filter sump system? Because the point I am trying to make is that _combining_ these two together off the same drain from the aquarium is fundamentally incompatible.

When both drains are open they would drain at the same rate (half to the sump and half down the drain). Sure you could use a smaller drain hose or a valve to try and regulate the amount of water drained but trying to match that to the amount of water input is impossible. There is no way you could achieve a perfect match. Any more or less water flow than what is coming in will result in an dry or overflowing sump.

A drip system DEPENDS on the amount of water loss being _equal_ to the amount of water input into the system. And in order to ensure that a significant volume of water is exchanged per day most people run them 24/7. The only way this can be done without float controls is to have the drain in the sump. It simply can't be done from the main aquarium without something to control the rate of loss based on the water level in the sump as described earlier.

How did your son setup a drip system with saltwater? Did he have a saltwater vat constantly pumping water into the system?

Andy


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

I am not sure what point you are trying to make by continuing to repeat yourself. This is an argument over nothing that I am sure you can persist in forever. People can go back and read what I said.


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## Narwhal72 (Sep 26, 2006)

I am just challenging your bad advice.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

My advice was to put the drain in the sump. Why do you insist that is bad advice? I thought at first that was the same thing you would advise. I gave all kinds of reasons why the other ways to do this are not desirable.


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## Narwhal72 (Sep 26, 2006)

Huh?



> You could if you put a very good shutoff valve on the drain side





> Turn the valve on then off manually when the desired volume of old water is removed. Automation is nice, but not required.


The above statements conflict with this:



> My advice was to put the drain in the sump


You are saying two different and conflicting things. You advise putting the drain in the sump and then suggest alternatives that are technically impossible/unfeasible. All I am doing is describing why your suggestions are technically unfeasible and providing the reasons why.

If we go back to the OP's original question. 
[quoteWe know we want to do a Malawi hap/peacock setup but we want to automate the maintenance as much as possible as cheaply as possible.][/quote]


> Our question is can we use one PVC overflow on an undrilled tank, split off with one line going to the filter, and the other going to a drain?


And the only real answer is "It's not feasible". As I described earlier, it can be done. But requires a high level of expensive automation in order to insure that the water output down the drain is equal to the water input from the drip system.

Andy


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

I predicted this.You are arguing with yourself, not for any point or reason. Instead of taking quotes out of context and reversing their meaning, why not make up anything you want? I have kept salt since 1970, cichlids before and after that, and there is no reason to do things the ways that have been used in the past when improvements have been made. But that does not mean they were impossible and never happened. I have an inkling you might be one of those theorists who say the moon landings were a hoax. You have the floor to yourself. Involve me no more.


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## Narwhal72 (Sep 26, 2006)

Whatever you say. I am arguing with YOU for the reason that you are providing bad advice and then trying to misdirect the discussion onto my argument instead of explaining how these "systems from the past" that defy the rules of physics worked.

If you want to play the qualifications game I have you beat. I have been keeping fish from since the early '80's. Worked at TFP for 17 years (10 of them as one of their marine biologists), professionally installed dozens of systems from simple home aquariums to complex retail and corporate display systems, have a BS degree in Aquaculture, worked on a tropical fish farm, and have spent the last 8.5 years designing and testing new products for one of the largest aquarium companies in the country in their R&D department.

I will leave it to the general public to determine whether I took anything you said out of context. Not once did I reverse the meaning of what you said.

Improvements to products are made all the time. That doesn't mean that they can ignore the laws of physics. The rules of fluid dynamics still remain the same.


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