# Ill Jack Dempsey



## nate070 (Jun 25, 2010)

I have had my JD for a year now. I recently moved him from a 29g tank to a 55g.(inc.heater which is kept at 79.0f and a fluval 305 filtration system.) Latley he has been gasping for air. While doing this only his right gill is opening and closing. I have seen him also float vertically at the top with his mouth just just below the water line. He also scratches his face on the rocks but not constantly. I tested the water and am not sure if they environment is good:
PH-7.0
Ammonia-0 ppm
Nitrite-.50 ppm
Nitrate-5-10ppm
I know these are not the ideal numbers but we have never had a problem in the past with him being this sick. I have also read that this might be a velvet illness. Any assistance would be greatly aprecciated.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Hi and sorry to hear your fish isn't doing well.

I'll start with the tank switch: any other fish in the tank? What did you do to cycle the new tank? Did you use the media from the old filter or just use the old filter?If you used the media from the old filter how long was the media out of the water or in a tank without fish? Hours? Days? And likewise if you used the old filter was it turned off for any length of time?
Your fish may be suffering from ammonia/nitrite poisoning due to the tank not being cycled. Try doing a partial water change of 30% using a good quality dechlorinator and then watch and see if there's any improvement in the fish's symptoms, ie, not gasping as much, not hanging at the top, etc. 
Why do you think it might be velvet? Because of the scratching? Fish will scratch for many reasons,not all of them are cause for concern. Take a good close look at the fish's skin. Look at it from different angles. Try shining a flashlight at it from different directions. Do you see any kind of film on the fish's skin? With Velvet you'll see a talc-like coating that can be grayish or rust colored.

In addition to the partial water change you should check your filter to make sure it's running correctly and that there's a good strong flow coming out of the filter return. Add salt, sodium chloride, to the water at the rate of 1-2 teaspoons per five gallons. This will help detoxify the nitrite.

Is the fish still eating? How long has it been gasping and how long ago was it that you started up the 55?

Robin


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## nate070 (Jun 25, 2010)

He is the only fish in the tank. We bought a new tank, filter, and ordaments and then filled it up with his old water from the 29g tank. Since we put his old water in there we really didn't let the new tank get established before we put him in. I did a 30% water change this morning and seems a lot better. He is still ocassionally gasping for air but it is not consistent. He will eat bloodworms but nothing else. I started the 55g tank about two weeks ago and put him in right after we got it going. He acted fine for the first week and half but has been slowly getting worse and worse. (less social and more gasping) last night was the worse when he would float on his side gasping and going to the top of the tank very slowly. So Since I have changed the water he is a lot better but still not 100%.

I have read that salt will fix this problem but have also read salt should be a last resort. Can you clear up the salt theory with me. I just want to make sure he can handle the salt being a freshwater fish. Thanks,


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## nate070 (Jun 25, 2010)

Also I have still noticed that when he is gasping that only the right gill opens and closes. The left remains closed against him. Is this normal?


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Sounds like your fish is in fact suffering from ammonia and nitrite poisoning. When you start up a tank you need to cycle the tank before adding fish. Cycling refers to a process of developing nitrifying bacteria in the filter so that the filter can process the ammonia that your fish produces and quickly turn it into nitrate which is harmless unless the levels get up to high. The water from his old tank would not have cycled the new tank. You can read more about cycling and how to cycle in the library section of this site.

But for now we still have work to do for this fish as it sounds like you're right in the middle of the cycling process--if it doesn't kill him it may cause internal damage.

First: get a good quality dechlorinator if you don't have one already. Something like Prime or Amquel plus. Both of these will remove ammonia and detoxify nitrite. You need to dose at the maximum dosage recommended on the label. 
Do daily or even twice daily partial water changes of 40% using the dechlorinator for the next week and then drop down to every other day for a few days and then, if water parameters are where they should be, weekly. 
Add salt, sodium chloride at the rate of 1-2 teaspoons per five gallons. Dissolve it first and add it gradually. Use aquarium salt, kosher or pickling salt but stay away from table salt which may have additives. The salt will help to detoxify the nitrite. This is a very small amount of salt and it will absolutely not hurt your fish,  
Feed sparingly. 
Test the water parameters daily for the next several weeks. Ideally you want to use a test kit that uses the test tubes rather than the test strips. It's best if you have your own test kits rather than relying on the fish store.

Ammonia and nitrite can burn your fish's gills--so that's likely what your seeing--one may be worse than the other.

So the good news is that you've got a nice big tank. Much easier to correct water problems with a big tank. And you're right on top of the situation. Let me know how it goes.

Robin

And pretty much all of us learned about cycling a tank by NOT cycling a tank.


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## nate070 (Jun 25, 2010)

Ok, great advise, we will continue partial water changes with good dechlorinator (we are using Kordon Aquanova) and buy aquarium salt tomorrow for the tank. He seems to be much better after the partial water change.

On another note, have a question about feeding. Prior to this move (not only to a new aquarium, but we moved to a new townhouse) we were able to feed him small feeder goldfish from our hands..he was much more aggressive and would even take a gold fish from our fingers(holding gold fish by the tail in water). Recently, we have added a feeder fish, and he tries once to grab it, then completly ignores it..and will not eat it.

Is this also a side affect of the poor water quality?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

It could be a side effect of him not feeling well due to the toxins in the water. But purchased feeder fish may not be very healthy and can bring disease and parasites into your tank. If you really want to use them it would be safer to raise them personally.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Ditto on what DJ advised and I'll just add that over the years I've known of many instances where, for reasons unknown, a fish or turtle who had been routinely fed feeder fish would not eat one particular fish. I knew someone who had a turtle who lived for many years with a fish that he didn't eat. He went on to eat _other_ fish, but not this fish.

Who knows?

Robin


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## nate070 (Jun 25, 2010)

I have been doing water changes twice a day. When I get up in the morning he is up at the top of the tank with his mouth almost out of the water. Also on top of the water I notice a nasty film like substance. Is that part of the amonia or nitrites? I also got salt and am getting ready to add it. How often should I be adding salt? Everytime I do a water change? Thanks for all your help.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

When you do a water change you remove ammonia and or nitrite and that makes it easier for your fish to breath but over time-- a few hours- the ammonia and or nitrite builds up to toxic levels again and the fish must return to the surface to breath.

But I just thought of something else that may be impacting your situation: your dechlorinator and the fact that you just moved. Did you move to a different town with a different water company? The reason I ask is for one, the dechlorinator you're using does not work on chloramines, something many towns are now adding to their water instead of just chlorine. (Check out the dechlorinator article linked below for more info) 
If the water where you use to live did not contain chloramines and the water in your new townhouse does then this could have a significant effect on your fish--especially in a tank that's cycling. 
Also read the label on your dechlorinator to see if it removes ammonia and detoxifys nitrite. In a situation like this you really need a dechlorinator that will remove ammonia and detoxify nitrite. Everyone should have some on hand in case of an emergency.

On the salt: You want to measure out, in a separate container, enough salt for the entire volume of the tank. So if you had a twenty gallon tank and you wanted 2 teaspoons per five gallons then for the entire tank you would need 8 teaspoons. You would dissolve the salt in the separate container and then add it gradually over 6-8 hours time to your tank. (Personally I use an empty peanut butter jar for the separate container--if you've saved the lid you can use it to shake the salt to make it dissolve faster)

Now when you do a water change you only want to replace the salt that you remove with the water. So: if you do a 25% water change you're removing 5 gallons of water which equals 2 teaspoons of salt. When you add the new water you would only add 2 teaspoons of salt. And you would dissolve it first but there's no need to add it gradually. 
And like I said before, you're dealing with a very small amount of salt, (not much is needed to detoxify nitrite) so if you end up adding a little extra, no big deal. When we use salt to treat ich we use between 2 and 5 TABLEspoons per five gallons. And some people believe that keeping 1 Tablespoon of salt per five gallons in the tank at all times helps their fish. It's debatable whether or not it helps but it definitely does not hurt. (And I'm not saying it doesn't help, I'm just saying its debatable  )

I don't know what the substance is.

Robin

Also, you can increase the aeration in the tank by lowering the water level an inch or two so the filter return makes a waterfall/splash. That will help your fish.


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## nate070 (Jun 25, 2010)

I went out and bought The Prime water treatment which does remove amonia detoxifies nitrites. I put five cap fulls which is recommended in emergency situations. I also put 2 tsp of salt for every 5 gallons in the tank and pulled the output of the filter to creates small splashing. He is still constintantly floating at the top gasping for air. Not sure if their is anything else I can do but hopefully he will make it through. Thanks for your help.


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## nate070 (Jun 25, 2010)

One last question. After I put all the stuff in the tank the PH has changed to about 6.6. Is this normal? How to I get it up to 8.2?


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

The ph dropped?? No that's not normal. Neither the salt nor the dechlorinator will do anything to your ph.

What's the ph of your tap water? 
When was the last time you tested the tank's ph?
Have you ever added anything to the tank to raise/lower the ph?

Robin


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## nate070 (Jun 25, 2010)

I just tested it and it showing between 7.0-7.2 now. I have a test kit with the test tubes to check it. I also have a meter in the tank that shows what it is. The meter in the tank might be not working correctly because it is still showing 6.6. I tested the tap water it looks to be the same PH as the tank.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

whew--okay, good. We've got enough going on with this fish without the Ph turning on us for no reason.

7.0-7.2 is fine. No need to mess with it. At least not right now. If we find later that your KH is low then we may want to mess with it but no need to do anything right now

Robin


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## nate070 (Jun 25, 2010)

Hello - thanks for all the info, it has been very helpful. Everything seems to have 'calmed' down, all levels appear in normal ranges. The fish is not gasping for air or sitting at the top any longer. So, two questions:

1) How do I know when my new tank is done cycling? It has been almost 3 weeks... and all levels appear fine... is there a way to tell?

2) After all my fish has been through, it would make sense that he is acting a little strange. But now, he is only staying in one corner of the tank, at the bottom. He seems scared and is barely eating. But he is not gasping any longer or floating sideways. He does keep trying to scratch what looks like his head/eye. He turns upside down and rubs against the rocks. Any ideas?


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Hi
on the cycling: you should know that it's done when the test results come back: Ammonia--0, Nitrite--0, and Nitrate between 5-10ppm. What I see far too frequently here on the forum is that people have test kits that are faulty in some way. The test strip kind may not be as reliable as the test tube kind and also most test kits have a shelf life. Having your water tested at the fish store often gives unreliable results, too. 
But it you're confident of your test kit then you should be good once you get the above numbers.

Have you seen your fish eat? Have you seen him spit out his food? I don't know why he is rubbing. It may be that he is still irritated by the ammonia/nitrite--either there is still some ammonia or nitrite in the water or he's been injured by them. Keep watching the area where he's itching for signs of infection, (white or gray fuzzy growth, a general reddening of the area), and take note of whether or not he's swallowing his food.

Have you got good water movement in the tank? Not a cure for anything but it does help.

Robin


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## nate070 (Jun 25, 2010)

We have checked all the numbers multiple times a day and with different test kits. We are showing all numbers at 0.

But the fish is acting extremely weird. 
He does not eat at all.(I mean not even go up for food and try it.)

He seems to be swimming backwards way more that I have ever seen. Alomost like his back tail is not working to good. His side fins go crazy getting him around the tank.

I don't see him freak out and rub himself in the rocks as much as before but scales are still falling off of him.

I put a net in the tank to move him out of the corner that he wont leave. He moved to the otherside of the tank backwards and really slow.(one point he actually swam into the net and gave a very weak attempt to bite it.)
Is it possible that he is permantley damaged? Maybe he lacked oxygen and suffered brain damage? I really don't know but I am hoping he will snap out of this funk.

Any ideas? I am thinking of getting a sucker fish to put in with him. Would this be a good idea. I alsways wanted one in the past but he was way to agressive but now I don't see any problem with that. Can you reccomend what kind to get? Thanks again....


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## nate070 (Jun 25, 2010)

OK. So I gave him some blood worms and he seemed really intersted. He went to the top to get them. He would open his mouth and try to get it but it really looks like his back tail wont propel him to the surface. Does this sound like anything?


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

So he didn't eat the worms?

It could be bloat. The first symptom is spitting out food and then not eating and the fish will also hide. This could have come about as a result of the fish being stressed from the ammonia/nitrite. 
Or it could be that he has internal injuries from the ammonia/nitrite. 
With fish one ailment quite often leads to another and then further complicating things is that fish ailments often show similar symptoms--especially if the fish has been struggling for awhile, which yours has.

So there's at least two ways to proceed and I'm afraid neither are the clear choice. 
Continue to provide him with good water conditions via frequent water changes and watch for any signs of improvement/worsening. Try feeding him just to see how he's doing but try to remove any uneaten food so it won't foul the water.

Or treat for Bloat using Jungle Parasite Clear. Most fish tolerate this med pretty well but any med is going further stress an already weakened/stress fish. And by stress I mean it could put him over the edge. Meds are great but along with the healing they provide most of them also place an added stress on the fish. 
What you might do is give him another day or two at most, (wait too long and it's too late for meds to be effective) and then if you don't see improvement, try the Jungle.

On the sucker fish: *NO*. I wouldn't add any fish until this fish is eating and swimming normally but another thing to consider in a 'sucker' fish is that they feed on whatever is in their path and alot of them eat at night when your fish will be even more subdued then he already is. 
Is there a particular species of 'sucker' fish you wanted? A lot of the ones you see in the fish store grow to be a foot long and they put out quite a bit of waste. Don't get anything now but shop around for a Bristlenose Pleco. They stay under five inches, are really neat looking and they will clean every inch of your tank.

Robin


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## nate070 (Jun 25, 2010)

Thanks. I fed him some frozen food that sinks in the water and he ate it all in about 2 min. without a problem.

When I said he wouldn't eat the blood worms. It looked like it was becasue they were floating on the top and he could get his mouth up there to eat it. He would go about an inch from the top of the water open his mouth and continously try and get them. He could never manage to get his mouth up out of the water to grab the worms.

This is when i thought I would try a food that didn't float and he ate it with no problem.

The sucker fish idea is just something I would want to get in the future. I had one years ago witha jack dempsey and they lived fine together. It was one that never got over five inches so maybe it was the one you are talking about.

Would Bloat contibute to the scales falling off? Thanks for the advice. This fish is sure a lot of work!!!!!


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Scales falling off is not a symptom of bloat,no. And if your fish is eating ANYTHING then it's not bloat. Good idea on your part to try the sinking food.

Do scales continue to come off? 
And did you add anything else to the tank, like live plants, water,snails, etc when you put the JD in? Certain external parasites are a possibility but they have to be introduced to the tank,they don't just appear--(thank God!)
The JD was fine until you put him in the new tank so I have to assume that he's still showing symptoms of ammonia/nitrite poisoning. Keep doing the water changes. It's a good sign that he's still eating. There may be some internal damage that we can't do anything about.

These things can take some time. In my years on this forum I've 'seen' many, many fish fight back to health after all kinds of seemingly impossible situations.

Hang in there, keep me posted.

Robin


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