# bolivian rams in 20gal tank



## hbeth82 (Jul 1, 2009)

I would like to get a pair of Bolivian Rams for my small tank, already inhabited by 2 dwarf flames and 5 oto cats. Members of another forum have assured me that to this mix I can safely add a pair of rams, as well as a few small corys but this seems like _WAY_ too many fish for such a small tank. I know many online resources say that 20gal is plenty if space for a pair but many also say that an 8" turtle would do fine in that size tank as well.

Is it reasonable or should I simply wait until a tank upgrade is available?

Thanks!


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## MCKP (Aug 17, 2009)

Don't know about the fish but I do know a 8" turtle should not be in a tank that small!! We are getting two turtles next year(Eastern Mud Turtles) and they only get around 5" and we will have them in a 55 with thought of a possible upgrade when they are full grown....


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## hbeth82 (Jul 1, 2009)

MCKP said:


> Don't know about the fish but I do know a 8" turtle should not be in a tank that small!!


I know, I have an eastern painted, about 3.5" (my little angel) in a 75 gal tank. That was just the best comparison that immediately came to mind, representing one of my biggest pet-peeves among the turtle-care resources, both online and in pet-stores. Sadly, fish, turtles, and a lot of other non-furry animals aren't considered 'real' pets and thus we shouldn't worry too much about their well-being :x

As for the fish, putting two, possibly breeding 3-4" fish in such a small tank seemed wrong but I fully acknowledge knowing very little. Also, adding them to the existing gourami and otos sounds like a bad idea.


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## xTmDarren (Apr 27, 2009)

The Gourami you have are bottom tank fish- and so are the Bolivian Rams. But on that note. They will probably actually not even worry about each other.. My 2 Sunset Gourami's and 6 Bolivian in my tank actually never fight and 1 Gourami and 1 Bolivian actually have there little territory together, and they just hangout and eat together without worries..

So in other words I think 2 rams and 2 gouramis should be fine.. Unless you have one of the few aggressive dwarfs..

and the tank is probably the basic minimum you could do but they should be fine if its well planted..


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## Isis24 (Dec 10, 2008)

I have 2 Bolivian Rams and 3 chocolate gouramis in my 25G. They seem to do well together. The gouramis stay in the top half of the tank and the bolivians stay in the bottom half. A 20G is a little small for Bolivians (they do get up to 4"), but if they're mellow, it could work. My male sometimes chases the female, but she has enough space to get away. That may not be the case in your tank. That's assuming you have a 24" 20 gallon, and not a 20 long.


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## hbeth82 (Jul 1, 2009)

Thanks for the advise, I appreciate it! Still trying to decide but feeling more optimistic.

For the time being, a little advice on my tank would also be appreciated. I just checked the pH levels and depending on the room where I read it, the water's around 7.4-7.6. Water changes are about every 6-8 days and nitrates don't get much above 20ppm. Below are some pictures of my tank. It's a 20gal tall (or 24" long) and I have two flame dwarf gourami (only one is shown here because the other is in time-out) and 4-5 oto cats. Should I get some kind of cory cat to take care of leftovers or is that too much? Do I need any more plants or driftwood?

















Again, thanks!


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## xTmDarren (Apr 27, 2009)

I would personally try to get the PH to about 6.8 to 7- But 7.4-7.6 would probably be fine- the highest PH they really feel confortable at is 7.5 which is why im saying bring it down a little.. other than that the tank looks fine- plenty of plants to hide in. I say go for it.. Also on the cory cats thats up to you. I personally would just skip a day a week or so on feeding and let my fish find the left over food instead of buying anymore fish.. Of course you could also get snails. Thats what I actually have for my 55 instead of a pleco or cory and they do GREAT! Something like a few Mystery Snails or Olive Nerite Snails..

anyways goodluck and I cant wait to see a few pics of your Rams if you get some! Bolivians are one of my favorite!


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## hbeth82 (Jul 1, 2009)

Thanks. I know there are different kinds of products to control pH and I think the 'buffers' are usually recommended - any ideas? As for feeding, would once a day be sufficient for this tank / stock list?

Do you happen to know (or would you be able to guess) whether rams would eat ramshorn snails? I'd like to cultivate a small army as my turtle LOVES them, but the acara I had before destroyed the population in a week or so - there were hundreds, some even living in the filter. On the good side though, his colors are beautiful & he mended pretty quick!


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## Isis24 (Dec 10, 2008)

I've bred bolivians in a pH of about 7.5 and it didn't seem to be any trouble. Still, you could add a bit of peat to your tank to lower the pH a teeny bit.

Cories like to be in groups, and with what you already have in your tank, a group would be a bit much. Bolivians do a really great job of getting food particles off the sand/gravel though, so I don't think you need a "cleaner" fish. If you really want cories, you could look into getting dwarf cories. they're adorable, but gravel may hurt their barbels (someone else can comment on this?). They'd need sand to lay on and be comfortable.

Your tank looks great. You could add another piece of driftwood if you wanted to


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## hbeth82 (Jul 1, 2009)

Thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it!

Anybody have experience with AP's Proper pH 7.0 product? Seems like the best rated buffer for my purposes (on here at least). Since I just want them to be healthy and aren't too interested in a tank full-o-fry, is 7.0 low enough for them? Also, is once a day enough food?

There may be a few tears shed now if my LFS doesn't have a male & female


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## Isis24 (Dec 10, 2008)

I'd be cautious about using pH down products. It messes up the buffering capacity of your water. Also, the most important thing is to have a stable pH. if you're adding drops of that stuff, it's quite possible that your pH will fluctuate, and that's really not good.

You'd probably be fine with a pH of 7.5 though. If it really worries you, it would be better to add peat than to add drops. Driftwood also lowers pH a little bit because it lets off tannic acid. According to the Bolivian ram profile, pH of 6-7.8 can be tolerated. According to my South American Dwarf Cichlids book, Bolivians were found living in a pH of 7.6. I didn't consult any other sources. Can anyone else comment on this?

I feed twice per day but I think many people feed only once. If you buy young fish though, you'll want to feed them more than once a day.


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## hbeth82 (Jul 1, 2009)

Good, fewer chemicals to mess with and risk killing everything :thumb:

How do you add peat moss to an aquarium? Under the substrate or attached to driftwood? Seems like it would fall apart, unless I'm not thinking of the right stuff?


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## ZeroSystem (Sep 4, 2005)

Fluval makes peat pellets that is meant to be added to canister filter media chambers. I use a nylon mesh bag thing I got a the LFS, loaded it up with peat pellets, and added it to my AC 110. I'm not exactly sure on how often the stuff needs to be replaced, but I thought I remember reading an article that suggested at least once a month. Could be wrong though.


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## Isis24 (Dec 10, 2008)

Yup, I think eheim makes them, too. It looks like your filter is small, so you probably can just find a corner of your tank to hide a little bit of peat in (perhaps behind a piece of driftwood).


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## hbeth82 (Jul 1, 2009)

Would adding these peat pellets be that much better than adding another piece of driftwood? I have the AC30 but no carbon so that leaves a little room.

Also, the only LFS I can get small pieces of driftwood also has an exceptionally lousy record for fish health, IMO (healthiest things to come from there were rosies). If I boil the heck out of the wood to get rid of any disease, will I also be getting rid of the beneficial stuff too?


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## lmhollist (Aug 7, 2009)

hbeth82 said:


> Would adding these peat pellets be that much better than adding another piece of driftwood? I have the AC30 but no carbon so that leaves a little room.
> 
> Also, the only LFS I can get small pieces of driftwood also has an exceptionally lousy record for fish health, IMO (healthiest things to come from there were rosies). If I boil the heck out of the wood to get rid of any disease, will I also be getting rid of the beneficial stuff too?


You could always just quarantine the wood in a bucket for a couple of weeks. If you heat the water to 86 or so you'll also accelerate the life cycle of any ich that may have come with it. Without a host to attach to, the ich will die.

Another option is to just buy the pieces dry. If your LFS sells it by the pound then obviously the dry stuff will be much cheaper, that then leaves you the option to soak out some of the tannins before putting it in your tank. Another benefit ... no worries about disease.

The south american cichlid guy at an LFS I like to go to told me that he doesn't prune his plants. Apparently leaving rotting plant matter in your tank also helps to soften the water up a bit. So far I've been following his advice with my ram tank and it's hard to say whether or not it has made a difference (I have really really really hard water) but it certainly can't hurt. Plus, heavily planted tanks are just awesome.

I had never considered peat as an option for softening up water, I'm definitely going to look more into it, especially if you can just bag it and place it with other filter media.


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## hbeth82 (Jul 1, 2009)

Unfortunately I only know of two places locally that sell driftwood, the sickly store I described and the other is where I plan to get the rams. Typically the pieces available in the better LFS are great but most are fairly large and more suitable for a basking log than a mini-cave!

I've looked for the peat media on several store websites but not finding many places that carry it - is it that uncommon?


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## Isis24 (Dec 10, 2008)

How about this?

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... atid=10804

It's for ponds, but It seems to be the same thing.


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## hbeth82 (Jul 1, 2009)

A slight though anti-climactic update:

Found a good price for a 40gal breeder & stand, so I'll likely be getting that this weekend, and then hope to pick up 4-6 Bolivian Rams (about 1.5"), with the hope of having at least two pair up, & if necessary move the others out. Stock will also include 3 or so flame dwarf gourami and possibly a small school of either emperor or black fin tetras.

I just found out that the blue acara that I'd nursed back to health in my 20gal tank is available but would he be too big for this set up or these fish? When he'd been in my 20 with the 2 gourami, he always behaved himself so I think he play nice in the new tank.

Feedback, comments, or suggestions to any or all of this is greatly appreciated, as everything is still up in the air for the most part.


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