# Cryptobia Iubilans (Uncurable Bloat) --- Dimetridazole Cure?



## gandm99 (Aug 24, 2007)

Hi All,

Does anyone have any personal experience in curing Cryptobia Iubilans?

I was going to try this purported cure:
http://www.labdepotinc.com/p-16659-dimetridazole.php

But would love to get a warm fuzzy about it before I drop another $100 on medication...

Just to give you some background, I've been trying to cure my 80 gallon peacock tank of "BLOAT" for the past 8 months (98% of the fish exibit symptoms of whitish/clear poo, sunken belly which eventually lead to rapid breathing/coughing then swollen belly and death) . I have tried CLOUT/JPC and Pure Metronidazole and they have done next to nothing, and then I tried some bacterial meds out of desperation (the Marycyns and also furanase) which also had no effect. This is why I feel 99.9% confident in my Cryptobia diagnosis after doing MUCH research on the subject.

I started with 30 fish and am now down to 15, and I have been religious about maintaining water parameters within optimal for Malawi... I'm fairly certain that my religous maintenance routine has been the only thing preventing 100% fatalities at this point.

Any advice or info on this subject would be much appreciated!

g


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Well, there sure isn't much info out there on the drug. 

It sounds like you've tried everything.

Any chance of having a vet or lab take a look at the intestines of one of your fish that appears to be sick?

Kim


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## gandm99 (Aug 24, 2007)

hmmm... I haven't really thought about the Vet route. I guess I figured it'd be a huge expense... but I admit zero experience on that kind of thing.

Any ideas on how I would go about it? or the cost involved?

thanks
g


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Well, I don't know how easy it would be to find a vet in your area that will treat fish. It's next to impossible here.

But I have known people have necropsies done on fish that have died by labs at universities to find out what type parasite they are dealing with, with fantastic results.

Any chance you're close to a university?

Kim


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## gandm99 (Aug 24, 2007)

I'm in Los Angeles, so yes, there are several within a 1 hour drive.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Well, it's up to you whether you want to spend the $$ on it or not.

IMO, if you can find someone willing to do it and tell you what you're up against, it would be worth it. If you know a university student who has lab access, it might even be a freebie. :wink:

Good luck, and please post back!

Kim


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## gandm99 (Aug 24, 2007)

I went ahead and ordered 100 grams of Dimetridazole (cost me $80) and I should have it within about a week. (got it from http://www.delamochemical.com/)

The planned treatment for my 80 gallon tank is as follows:
Day 1 - 25% water change, wait an hour or so, then add 20 grams Dimet to tank.
Day 2 - 80% water change, wait an hour or so, then add 20 grams Dimet to tank.
Day 3 - 80% water change, wait an hour or so, then add 20 grams Dimet to tank.
Day 4 - 80% water change, then add carbon to eliminate any remaining medication.
Note: the 20grams/80gallons works out to be a slightly lower concentration than the 80mg/liter that I've read about being successful. I figure since I'm doing an 80% water change, the concentration will go up slightly over the three days.

I will then use the remaining 40 grams of Dimet to soak the food in, until I see ZERO stringy poop, or run out...

...and If this doesn't do the trick; I plan to cease medication completely (for the past 3 weeks I've had them on a diet of JPC soaked pellets, which they all eat, but 85% of them still have sporadic clear/white/stringy poo), and will let "survival of the fittest" run it's course.

I will post up the results of the treatment.

g


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## bones06 (Sep 26, 2007)

Is it possible that you are re-introducing the bloat through contaminated nets, scrapers, or some other way? Have yo been feeding the proper foods for your fish? Just an idea for you to ponder if you haven't already thought of these. I would for the heck of it do as Kim said and see if a university student would be willing to test the water, dead fish for anything out of the ordinary. You could also ask your local zoo aquarium keeper for help, and if they can't help you they will know someone that can. You'd be surprised at how willing some of these people are to help you solve a mystery.


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## gandm99 (Aug 24, 2007)

Re-introduction of the guilty parasite is highly unlikely when considering that i've been treating the water/food constantly for months. Which means that anything I've put in the water (nets/scrapers etc...) have been bombarded with Medication... And as I understand it, the Parasites which cause bloat are transmitted via feces, and not directly via the water.

Bottom Line - If the JPC/Metro/Clout was going to kill off this particular Parasite, it would have LONG ago.

I can say with some confidence though, that feeding JPC soaked food does seem to keep the Parasite "At Bay". I have had NO deaths since i've been doing it, and all the fish eat normally. My gut feeling is that the JPC is potent enough to prevent a "deadly" flare up of the Cryptobia bugs, just not enough to eradicate them. I do wonder though, about the long term dosing effects on the fish.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

If the fish are eating and the only symptom they are having is the white feces, then it sounds like your bloat is cured. :-?

White stringy feces isn't always indicative of bloat. Only when you experience that along with another bloat symptom do you become concerned.

It can be caused by a change in diet, and feeding food soaked in medication would certainly constitute a change in diet.

Kim


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## gandm99 (Aug 24, 2007)

You're going to have to trust me on this. It's not cured. The fish certainly eat, but they still have sunken bellies and continue to exibit unhealthy feces. Those particular symptoms are NO different then the typical "bloatless" bloat symptoms that are plastered all over this forum.

I 100% guarantee that if I stopped medicating right now, a _weaker_ fish would die from "full blown" bloat within 2-3 weeks.

To re-iterate, this cycle of "uncurable bloat" has been going on ever since the group of fish was introduced into the tank 9 months ago.


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## Alex0607 (Jul 26, 2003)

I can't offer any help but base on my limited experience, should avoid getting any more fish from the LFS. Looks like their stock may not be as healthy as you would like.

I have experience with this LFS here and all my stock of fish I bought from them died of something over a period of a month after and even with pre-medication treatment before introducing them to the community tank. And it affect my other fish as well. This was while back.

I just did another trial by buying some fish from them. Two of my yellow cichild just died after only 3 days in the QT. 3 out of 6 of my guppy just died even with clean tank water. My goldfish I got from them has some white growth on it. I don't have this sort of problem from other LFS.

I am avoiding that LFS from now on. Good luck and hope you sort out the problem.


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## bones06 (Sep 26, 2007)

gandm99 said:


> You're going to have to trust me on this. It's not cured. The fish certainly eat, but they still have sunken bellies and continue to exibit unhealthy feces. Those particular symptoms are NO different then the typical "bloatless" bloat symptoms that are plastered all over this forum.
> 
> I 100% guarantee that if I stopped medicating right now, a _weaker_ fish would die from "full blown" bloat within 2-3 weeks.
> 
> To re-iterate, this cycle of "uncurable bloat" has been going on ever since the group of fish was introduced into the tank 9 months ago.


A couple of months ago I received a horrible batch of fish from an online order. Most of them had sunken bellies,and the other symptoms of bloat. Most of them recovered or were euthanized, but one of the ones that survived has a permanately sunken belly. This ngara has since put on quite a bit of weight and has grown a bit in length too. I was told by some of the mods on here that a severe case of bloat can cause permanant damage to the fishes stomach/intestinal tract causing it's stomach to always look sunken. I know that she is constantly eating but the sunken effect just won't go away. A sunken belly can also be caused by wasting disease and I believe fish tb too. So in other words they may or may not of had bloat, and if they did have it they may just have sunken bellies permanatly.I'm sure that the constant use of meds is not good for the fish and are more likely to turn whatever parasite, bacterial, or viral infection into a drug resistant variety. Unfortunately when emotions are high as with any pet we may do more harm then good. I really hope you can get this under control, and I wish you luck.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

It's not that I don't trust you! :wink:

As bones06 has pointed out, there are other things that it could be...Unfortunately, there's no way to know for sure without veterinary assistance, or at least access to a laboratory and tests.

Good luck!

Kim


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## gandm99 (Aug 24, 2007)

thanks for all the replies and interest!

Just thinking out loud here on the "permanent intestinal damage" theory for sunken bellies:

This to me, would mean that the fish is physically unable to get enough food into it's 
digestive tract to prevent wasting. As if so much scar tissue (or whatever) has developed 
that food does not want to fit... Which means that either the fish must spit food back out, 
or it only grabs a tiny amount of food and knows it can't really do more (even though it's 
presumable starving hungry). But that's my problem... We all know that a hungry fish knows 
no bounds... they will literally eat themselves to death (or close to it) if you let them. 
So I basically don't buy that a fish will eat less knowing that the food may get stuck in 
their compromised digestive tract. That concept would take way more cognitive thought than a 
fish is able to give.

So in my mind, the blockage must be MUCH more immediate. I'm thinking The Throat/Mouth 
region. We all know these fish are typically like little piranha when the pellets hit the 
water. The thing is though, some fish are definitely more Timid about feeding, almost proportional to how "sunken belly'ish" they look.

I feel like the only thing that would prevent a fish from at least gobbling food into it's 
mouth (i'm not talking about swallowing yet) is 1.) Pain, and 2.) No room to fit food. (and 
i have no clue if fish can feel pain).

If anyone has looked really close when a Sick fish starts the "coughing" phenomena (a more 
advanced bloat symptom than stringy poo), they've probably noticed that it literally looks as 
though the fish is trying to clear something fleshy from it's throat. I can almost see 
something between a fishes lips.

I guess my question is: Maybe there's nothing wrong with the Intestines... and the real 
problem lies much closer to the mouth. Is it physically possible for Fish to puke their 
stomach up into their mouth? And if so, could Excess Stomach pressure cause it? Or maybe 
the pressure is not even in the stomach, but in the body cavity. We see it as a bloated 
fish.

Maybe the timid fish have a permanent case of mild Overpressure. Not enough to visibly bloat them, but enough to cause throat blockage issues.

thoughts?


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## gandm99 (Aug 24, 2007)

just picked up the Dimet...

I plan to start treatment this Saturday in order to be able to keep a very close watch on the initial treatment. This stuff is definitely not your typical LFS med and I can see why it never will be. The bottle is plastered with warning labels about inhalation and skin contact.

Will post results as I go.

g


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## gandm99 (Aug 24, 2007)

A quick update for anyone who's interested:

I don't have a food scale (or any precision scale) so I just spent a couple minutes measuring out exactly how many "level" Teaspoons of Dimet are = to 100 gms.

The number worked out to be 28 level tsp = 100 gms. Or more accurately, 28 level tsp per "100 gram container" of Dimet. I state it like that because I MUST assume - since I don't have a scale - that there actually was 100 gms within the container. I would guess, if there is any error from the Lab, it would most likely be on the plus side. Regardless, the risk of incorrect dosage is low enough to satisfy my concerns.

I've pretty much settled on an initial dosage 6 tsp/80 gallons. Which equals 21.6 gms/80 gallons.

I may or may not get the chance to start treatment this weekend (due to my self imposed constraint of needing to be present for the first consecutive 8 hours or so), but will post up when I do begin.

g


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## gandm99 (Aug 24, 2007)

Took a long time for some of the fish to start re-exibiting bloat symptoms (after the lengthy period of oral JPC), which is why it took so long to post this update. Finally started seeing "a very few" fish with symptoms (spitting, stringy poop) so began treatment.

I quickly realized that this stuff wipes out the bio-filter. Fortunately I watched the tank like a hawk so didn't lose any fish, but it was far from an enjoyable experience. Only ended up doing two consecutive days with it as a result. This stuff makes a med as strong as Clout look like a water conditioner.

What I've learned:
1.) Sadly, as of now, my results are inconclusive with regard to Crypto.; Maybe the fish never did have it, maybe they still have it. If needed, I still have half of the Dimet though for an oral treatment regimen.
2.) I mave have actually cured the fish with the Oral JPC regimen prior to the dimet.
3.) If fish are willing to eat, NEVER treat the water column. It just may not get the job done. Maybe the bugs become "slightly" tolerant of any parasite med. such that treating the water will NOT kill them completely. You MUST treat the food. SERIOUSLY. ...and LISTEN to all the knowledgable folks on these boards that espouse the same thing.
4.) As a very knowledgable person posted previously; Parasite meds may/can cause "sick looking" poop. I.E. you can get yourself stuck in an endless cycle of treatment because stringy poop may not go away while orally medicating the fish. I'm sure this is largely dependent on the concentation of med in the food.
5.) Some fish are WEAK and TIMID genetically. I convinced myself that these fish were just sick and in need of a cure, but in reality they are just the "runts" of the litter. I really learned this by watching my baby Ngara Flametails grow up. A few are just very timid, and therfore get less food and stay small and thin looking. They definitely aren't sick though.
6.) Sometimes fish just get unhealthy looking poop. No more unusual than us humans sometimes getting an upset stomach.
7.) Sometimes fish may go off their food temporarily. This MAY not require any treatment other than simply ensuring optimal water quality.
8.) I think I pretty much just got unlucky during my online fish order. Maybe stock was very low at the time of my order, such that the remaining fish were actually the timid/weak ones that probably should have been culled.

Anyway, the good news is that I've learned much from this experience, and now have enough of a fish medicine cabinet to cure just about anything. Plus, no more fish have died, and they all seem to be eating normally (albiet some with MUCH more timidity than others).

thanks
g


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Thanks for posting back on this!

I have to say that I agree fully with everything you've said.

Not eating alone can be indicative of almost everything. If you add other symptoms with it, then you need to do something, but it can be so hard to figure out just what that "something" is.

It's great that you shared your experience!

Kim


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