# Electric Blue Hap and Yellow Lab Hybrids



## GnuLoCo (May 11, 2012)

Sometime over the past year in a 15 gallon tank, we had two fish. One Yellow Lab, (Labidochromis caeruleus I believe) and one Electric blue Hap (Sciaenochromis fryeri). Long story short, there was a successful brood of these two, I didn't catch it until there were only about five left. (Pops must have eaten the rest.)

Three lived on, one male and two females. Below is the best picture I could get of the male. He's a quick little *******. The picture does not do justice to the colors.










He has a gorgeous color combination. Blue face fading into a brown then orange tail. The dorsal fin mimics his father in shape but the white stripe is bright orange/yellow with all the white features of his pops otherwise being yellow.

After all of the reading I've done, I've not seen a cross between these two fish. They are clearly not from the same origin (Are they?) and I had no intent on breeding fish. I'm extremely happy with the way these fish look, however. The females are somewhat pale but when they are carrying or have eggs they appear a dark green like a fresh water bass with dark stripes on their sides. Have any of you ever seen a fish like these? And how terrible are they to the gene pool?

The reason why I'm writing is these two females both just spat approximately 46 (Forty-six!) fry. The fry are a ton of different colors. Yellow to dark striped. I have no idea what I am going to do with them and the females are getting ready to hold again, I can tell they have eggs again (Keep in mind they had 46 fry no more than three weeks ago! What am I doing wrong? Is this normal!?) . Will a local fish place take these fish/fry?

I have the adults in a very balanced, rock filled 75gl setup where they are clearly very happy and procreating like cockroaches. Is this true hybridizing or are these fish related at all?

Thanks for any advice or information you can provide.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

It is true hybridization. I would let the females spit the babies, for them to be eaten. I would also strongly discourage you from distributing them to stores and into the hobby.


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

Yes, don't give them away, but those are pretty fish.


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## GnuLoCo (May 11, 2012)

Can anyone direct me to Sciaenochromis fryeri for sale? More specifically, females. I think we made a decision to go purebred Electric and dump off all non-hybrid to a local store. Not real sure what to do with the hybrids yet tho. :/

Thanks for any info!


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## Mschn99 (Dec 24, 2012)

I am going to give a third vote for not saving any more babies. Hybrids are dangerous to the hobby, especially if distributed through pet stores as "mixed african". They are more likely to further hybridize with another fish, and the results is the gene pool getting thinned down. If it happened enough it could be a major problem with all of our fish.

The babies of the hybrids could look like either grandparent, the parents, or a whole other look of thier own. The real danger is if the babies look like one of the grandparents and are sold by a pet store as pure fish. If someone breeds these, thier offspring wont be pure, but they will think it will be. Those offspring are sold to someone else who breeds them, and then further down the line now you have hybrids that could have devistated a whole population of fish that all started from one little "oops"


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

Those babies won't look like their parents either. The parents are an equal mix of their parents but then, when they breed with each other what you'll get in the second generation is a random assortment of their genes which could range anywhere from 100% lab to 100% fryeri and everything in between. It would take years and years of careful breeding to get reliable offspring that look like your male. The only way to get that male again would be to breed his two parents again - he won't breed fry that look like him.

Let the parents eat the fry - don't foist them off on unsuspecting fish keepers.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Very nice. Would take that male in a heartbeat. I do have a few hybrids but I don't breed them and don't believe in it but I will take some males here or there where people are going to kill them.


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## ratbones86 (Jun 29, 2012)

what i dont understand is we have dragon bloods and ob's in the hobby they are hybrids but people love them. so if someone found a killer combo that everyone likes (like ob's and dragon bloods) then why is it so bad? how do you think we have the dogs and cats we have today. All breed from mixing other's together. just my 2 cents. I would love to see some other pics of these guys if you can get some!


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## Mschn99 (Dec 24, 2012)

ratbones86 said:


> what i dont understand is we have dragon bloods and ob's in the hobby they are hybrids but people love them. so if someone found a killer combo that everyone likes (like ob's and dragon bloods) then why is it so bad? how do you think we have the dogs and cats we have today. All breed from mixing other's together. just my 2 cents. I would love to see some other pics of these guys if you can get some!


Its not that simple. You cannot just breed a fish and breed its offspring and get the same colored fish every time. You actually never know what your going to get. OB's are naturally found in the wild, although most in the hobby are man made. And as far as dragon bloods, while i wouldnt have them, they have been line breed after the hybridation to create a relatively stable fish. It could take 10+ years to create a stable platform to breed from as far as man made hybrids. Its not like breeding a lab with a poodle and making a labradoodle...... More importantly, so many of the species we keep in the hobby are not doing so well in the wild. All it takes is one hybrid that looks like a full blooded fish to start really messing up genetic lines and therefore the color of the species.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't love dragon bloods, LOL.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

Actually it's just like breeding a lab and a poodle to make a doodle. First generation hybrids of two species all come out looking as expected - a 50/50 cross of the parents. But if you breed a doodle to a doodle you don't get a doodle - you get something that looks anywhere from a poodle to a lab with no telling how the interactions of those genes will look in the second generation.

If someone only bred first generation to make a nice looking fish it wouldn't be terrible because you'd know what to expect each time - it's the second generation that really screws things up. If all first generation crossed came out sterile then no harm would be done but unfortunately they aren't sterile - they give rise to potentially really messed up hybrids which can be hard to tell from one of the original species. Then some poor sucker thinks they have 'real' yellow labs and their breeding program is turned into a mess.

If you have a nice looking first generation hybrid then enjoy it but keep it and it's offspring to yourself and out of the gene pools of other people's hobby.


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

Yael said:


> First generation hybrids of two species all come out looking as expected - a 50/50 cross of the parents.


I don't think that would be true. For one, 1 parent's genes may be stronger than the other or we could have a case of co dominance (both traits expressed in the offspring, ie. spotted or perhaps striped). Take a look at my Estherae x Callainos hybrids. Almost none of the Callainos (mother's) traits are expressed in the offspring.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

Sorry, you misunderstand - they won't LOOK 50/50 to the parents but they will HAVE 50% of each parent species genes - AND they will look like each other and any subsequent first generation crosses of that species. That's how the doodle dogs come out looking the same. It's the second generation crosses that will be all over the map and unpredictable because the assortment from the sib crosses will vary in how many genes they get from each parent species.


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

Ok, then that is correct. But to be fair, you did say looking.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't like labradoodles either. So we have established that some like hybrids like dragonblood and some don't. No need to keep on with that part of the thread.

Regarding what hybrid fry may look like...they can look exactly like either parent or a mix. The problem is if they look exactly like one of the parents and you let them mature in your tank...now you can't tell which is which and might sell the hybrid as pure.

It also means now you can't sell or give away any of your pure fish because you don't know which ones they are.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

I stand by looking - the first generation hybrids will ALWAYS look as expected (whatever the outcome is from each parent) because their genetic makeup is predictable. It's the sib crosses that will look different from each other and some of those might fool you into thinking you have a pure fish of one of the parent species. People who don't understand genetics shouldn't be breeding dogs or fish.


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