# Need help with firemouth cichlid breeding setup



## Echostatic (Jan 22, 2014)

Hello everybody, hopefully this is the right forum. I have a planted 29 gallon tank that is currently occupied by a pearl gourami and some rasboras and neons. This is nice and pretty, but it's become kind of dull. I've been reading and researching, and have decided that I want to breed firemouth cichlids, if I can. Breeding sounds pretty exciting. I've been working on a plan of sorts.

First, I would take all fish in the 29g to the LFS for credit. Then, I could get 6 juvie firemouths. When two of them pair up, the other four can go back to the LFS for credit and the pair will have the tank to themselves. (Or would it be possible/beneficial to have some sort of dither fish to make them more protective/attentive, and reduce stress between the pair possibly fighting? Or is a 29g simply too small for such a thing?) When they have fry, since there are no predators, I would prefer to leave them with their parents for as long as I can. I do have a 10 gallon I can set up to hold fry with a java plant or two, but would this do for raising a batch to around 2" before taking them to the LFS? If it would, then would they reach around 2" before the next batch would need to be separated from their parents? I guess, basically, can I make this work with a 29g and 10g available?

I do have two LFS that will give be store credit for firemouths, so I at least have somewhere to take them. I have some general knowledge but could use some specifics, any guesses on how many fry I can expect to get from their spawning? I have read that they can lay up to 500 eggs at a time, but somehow doubt that all 500 would survive for too long. About how often do they breed? What can I really expect from one breeding pair? These specifics seem kinda hard to find, hopefully someone with firemouth breeding experience will chime in too.


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## Echostatic (Jan 22, 2014)

Oh, I have a picture of the tank. It's an older photo, but the tank doesn't look *too* different... Plants are a little bigger.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

i had a pair of firemouths that used to breed regularly. they were in with other firemouths until they paired. once they paired i moved them to a 20 gal. gave them a hollow log to breed in and off they went. they had hundreds of fry. i would move them after a few days into their own tank just to be safe. not saying u have to, but thats what i did. i ended up with about 50 survivors. good luck


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

You should be able to swing a pair of T. meeki in a 29gal. Your plan sounds good to me.. Get a group of juvies, let them pair off, and return the extras. As for other fish, I'd recommend a group of swords or mollies to act as dithers.

T. meeki are relatively slow growers so it could take a bit to get a confirmed pair. The first time or two a pair spawns you should expect a relatively small number of eggs, and maybe even a failed attempt. I'd say 500 eggs is definitely larger than the norm; I'd expect anywhere from ~50-200 from a young pair. When my meeki first spawned I had probably about ~75 eggs.


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## Echostatic (Jan 22, 2014)

Thanks for the responses, I can add a pot or something cave-like for them to spawn in. It's hard for me to wrap my head around dozens of (admittedly fairly small) fish growing up in a 10 gallon, but if it works, it works. Raising brine shrimp to feed the fry should be easy, along with powdered flakes. Do you have to do daily water changes or something as long as the fry are in the 10 gallon to keep their water clean? I've been looking through threads on breeding, but if you guys know of any resources with good information on caring for firemouth fry, or fry in general that applies to them, I would love to read it.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

I would use a sponge filter and perform daily 50% water changes on the 10gal once you have fry.

If you'd like to add a pot for them to spawn in that's fine, however a flat rock will work as well if you'd like to keep it more "natural".


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## Echostatic (Jan 22, 2014)

I've never had an air pump last very long, but I could use an HOB with a thick sponge over the intake. I do that now to keep my cherry and ghost shrimplets safe. If the current would be too strong, I could go with one made for a 5 gallon tank (around 50gph.)


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## Echostatic (Jan 22, 2014)

Would the firemouths eat swordtail or Molly fry, or will I need to dump them at the LFS?


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

they will eat whatever they can fit in their mouth, yes they will eat swordtail and molly fry.


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## Echostatic (Jan 22, 2014)

Alrighty, I'm leaning more towards swordtails, maybe 1 male and two females. Their fry should be neat to watch too. I have a lot of nooks and moss so who knows, some might just survive. Looks like my plan is starting to come together!


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

I wouldn't hesitate to add a larger group of Swords than that. The chances of fry surviving are pretty slim as Sword fry tend to gravitate towards the bottom.. right where the T. meeki will be waiting for them. Molly fry stay at the surface.


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## Echostatic (Jan 22, 2014)

I'm just worried about crowding too many fish into a relatively small tank, especially if I am wanting to leave firemouth fry in there for a while. I do like the idea of livebearer fry providing a protein snack for the parents.


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

I have some swordtails and they will not hesitate to find gaps in your lids.. keep it covered well or you will lose some to the carpet. I'd go with at least 1m and 3-4f


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## Echostatic (Jan 22, 2014)

Hmm, the back 1/3rd of my tank is open since I don't have a cover to accommodate two HOBs. I'm sure I can fab up something...


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

Echostatic said:


> Hmm, the back 1/3rd of my tank is open since I don't have a cover to accommodate two HOBs. I'm sure I can fab up something...


Yes they only need an inch or 2. I lost 3 the first night in my 15g because I didn't add the plastic pieces across the back of the glass lid. Then I lost another when I transferred them to the 180g for the exact same reason. The plastic strip is now in place.


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## Echostatic (Jan 22, 2014)

I have three gaps in the back. Fortunately we have robotic cutting tables at work so I'm getting some plexi cut out to lay over them. It should get the job done.

Someone who posted a firemouth breeding video on YouTube said a 10g wouldn't be big enough to grow out a batch of about 60 firemouth fry. It's hard to know who is right.


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

It all depends on what is meant by grow out.. i'd think 60 is too much if you mean anything over 1/2"


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## Echostatic (Jan 22, 2014)

They would have to grow big enough to take to the LFS, I don't think they want 1/2" fish. What would happen if I left the fry in the 29g with their parents long term? Bad things?


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

this has really gotten out of hand in my opinion. u need a 20 gal for the pair to breed in, then a second 20 long for grow out. by the time they are ready to move again they can go to lfs. if your aim is solely to breed firemouths then u dont need dithers and all this other stuff. as i stated earlier in thread. put all together. then when two pair off move them to a 20 with some sort of csve to breed. after that its up to u, but i would move fry into 20 long after a few days. this is exactly what i did and it worked. again this is just my opinion based on my experience. im not saying anyone else is wrong, but im trying to keep it as simple as possible for u


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## Echostatic (Jan 22, 2014)

I wouldn't say anything has gotten out of hand. I haven't done anything yet, I'm just asking questions and considering possibilities. I can try to figure out where to stick a 20 gallon grow out tank... And if a few swordtails won't hurt or complicate anything, why not? They sound like they would make things more interesting.


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## Echostatic (Jan 22, 2014)

Do the fry need floor space like the adults? If not, the LFS had a 27 gallon cube tank for $80 bare tank, bit more for a stand if I can't put it on my dresser. It has a cross brace in the middle, so it might hold. I could make a lid at work easily, pick up a heater and filter... I know people like sponge filters for fry tanks, but as I said earlier, I have had no luck with air pumps. They either get REALLY noisy or stop working entirely. I can put a big sponge over a HOB intake, if anyone has any idea what kind of GPH a 27g fry tank would need.

Otherwise, I could probably make a 20g long work... So, 20 long for the floor space, or 27 cube for the extra volume?

Edit: Oh, I got my plexi to block off my big openings on the 29 gal.


























The largest gap is a little over 1/2".


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I wouldn't buy that cube tank. Consider springing for the $1 per gallon tanks.

A HOB with a sponge can still suck in fry and trap them against the sponge.


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## Echostatic (Jan 22, 2014)

Petco does those $1/gallon deals sometimes, I'll keep an eye out. Any air pump recommendations, then? Now that I think about it, how do you get a tank cycled when it has a sponge filter? Just take filter media and give it a good squeeze in the tank?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I believe the sale is currently on...

Read some of the member reviews on pumps- http://www.cichlid-forum.com/reviews/category_display.php?CatID=801

Setup a sponge filter in an established tank and get some good bacteria going in anticipation of fry.


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## Echostatic (Jan 22, 2014)

Perfect! Thanks Iggy.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Welcome :thumb:


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

swordtails = fishfood for firemouths


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

I have around 20-25 fry in a 15g at the minute with an AC20 and an airstone. The AC20 just has foam and biomax in it and it has the edge prefilter sponge on the intake. The fry have no problems getting away from the suction of the intake. If I had been better prepared I would have used a sponge filter instead but so far looks to be working fine. The fry are less than a week free swimming.

You would need big firemouths to eat swordtails, though my largest ellioti is only around 5" no way one would fit in his mouth. He has smaller cherry barbs in his tank that have been with him for a few months now, he has managed to eat one. I had a larger male, that did eat 2 others but they were sickly and smaller than the rest.

If you don't even have the breeding pair yet I wouldn't rush out to get a fry tank setup.. if you have a 10gal sitting around it will do you for a while once you actually have fry. If you go out and get that larger tank now.. by the time you actualy have fry, you will have seen some other cool fish you want to try and it will be in the larger tank...


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

good luck, have fun, i hope it all works out


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## Echostatic (Jan 22, 2014)

That reminds me, these guys tend to have dozens or hundreds of eggs hatching into fry, what percentage usually survive to reach an inch or two? That's one thing I haven't seen, survival rates as they grow...


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

Echostatic said:


> That reminds me, these guys tend to have dozens or hundreds of eggs hatching into fry, what percentage usually survive to reach an inch or two? That's one thing I haven't seen, survival rates as they grow...


Too many variables on that one... its work to look after fry.. 30-50% water changes daily, feeding 2x daily...


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

i ended up with about 50 survivors each time. as stated in my first post


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## Echostatic (Jan 22, 2014)

I got 6 Firemouths and 4 Mollies. I got a pair and took the other 4 back. They spawned, and I got a lot of cute little fry swimming around.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Awesome dude! Glad it worked it out. How large are the pair?


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## Echostatic (Jan 22, 2014)

I would guess about 3.5"?


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## skurj (Oct 30, 2011)

Awesome! My ellioti pair are currently tending some eggs too. I saved 13 fry from their last batch with the largest approaching 1/2" now after about 2 months ish.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I wish mine would pair off. Alas, they are too young. Screaming 'Grow!' at the tank has no effect....


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## Ronzo (Sep 8, 2013)

My firemouths are about 3 inches but not pairing up either...I'm thinking I might have a squadron of girls (that's what the dorsal fins suggest also...no extensions at all, but it may be too early)...they are growing nicely...certainly developing a pecking order and color...diet is varied between cichlid sticks, pellets, brine-shrimp, krill and bloodworms...I'm on the lookout for a mature male...please keep us updated on your fry...cheers


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

Congrats on the spawn Echo. The pair looks great as well! :thumb:


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## Echostatic (Jan 22, 2014)

The babies are doing well so far. They have a 20g, and are getting a bit larger.


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http://instagr.am/p/mwG5Q4NLrP%23/


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