# 63 gallon stocking dilemma



## cichlidiot75 (Feb 22, 2005)

Hi,

I've just read the cookie cutter articles section for stocking suggestions, and there's one for a 55 and a 75. I'm right in the middle with my 63g tank.

I want 12 Cyprichromis Leptosoma, and a pair of Altolamprologus Calvus.

According to the 75g cookie cutter, I could have a pair of leleupi AND julidochromis AND Calvus, but NO lepto's in addition. So it would be Calvus, Leleupi, Julies.

According to the 55g cookie cutter, I could have the 12 lepto's, the Calvus, and then choose from either the Julies OR Leleupi's.

So I will put in the following: 
12 Cyprichromis Leptosoma 
2 Altolamprologus Calvus.

But which of the following can I add, or is adding all of them safe?
2 N. Leleupi
2 Julidochromis (Regani or Marlieri)
1 Sailfin pleco (the Gibbiceps species)


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

keep all of them but make the Leptos "Utinta" or any non-jumbos, cut the leleupi to 1, and make the Julidochromis Marleiri into J. Transcriptus (Smaller Marleiri basically).

Why a sailfin? Doesn't belong in a high ph/kh tank. He will probably get his fins trimmed via leleupi, julis. If you're including him for Algae control, try Nerite Snails.


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## cichlidiot75 (Feb 22, 2005)

BioG said:


> keep all of them but make the Leptos "Utinta" or any non-jumbos, cut the leleupi to 1, and make the Julidochromis Marleiri into J. Transcriptus (Smaller Marleiri basically).


I will do that, but I've just read that with 12 lepto's you have only 1 with nice color and the rest will be a bit boring grey-ish, is that true? They're quite expensive so maybe I will just forget about the leptos...



BioG said:


> Why a sailfin? Doesn't belong in a high ph/kh tank. He will probably get his fins trimmed via leleupi, julis. If you're including him for Algae control, try Nerite Snails.


For algae control I really like the sailfin, never had anything more effective than that. But that was with Mexican Thorichthys species. I will check out the snails. Do you know their scientific name? Is there anything else that eats algae?

What if I drop the Cycprichromis and pile up the rocks really high, could I also keep a pair of Leleupis and a pair of Caudopunks?


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## Wvack (Aug 31, 2008)

I would leave out the Leleupi...

Go for the 12 Leptoes...

4-5 Julie's to let them pair out...

Maybe some Pleurospilus... It should be doable with a little planning...

That would get you some nice open water movement (leptoes), some cavejoy in one end of the tank (julies) and then some nice playing in the sand at the other side of the tank...(pleuroes)

The Pleurospilus will keep the top layer of sand clean and nice... but they do dig A LOT! I have enjoyed mine for some time and they have quite interesting behavior...

It's pretty much my own setup except I haven't found any Leptoes yet...


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

Nothing eats more Algae than the Olive nerite snail pound for pound. They don't reproduce in freshwater and enjoy a high PH as they are easily marine ready. I put 5 in a 55 and they cleaned all 4 panes in 2 weeks.

I'm the wrong guy to ask about cyps. I have had them 4 or 5 times over the years and I sell them off every time becuase of the lack of color when compared to most tangs. With 12 in their you'll probably have 2-4 males colored up and they can be nice looking (Though rarely "Stunning" like Enants or Cyathopharynx), the females are grayish brown and drab. Their behaviors such as midwater mouthbrooding make them irresistable to some so if you're into that then they're the ones. They're also one of the few tang fish that occupy mid water so however valuable that is.

I'd rather have 2m Altos/to 8fm Altos any day to any 20 cyps but I'm an Alto freak so don't take my word for it.


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## cichlidiot75 (Feb 22, 2005)

Allright then, I'm starting to figure things out a bit. Cyps are really not my thing then. I'm now thinking of piling up rocks real high, and go for one of either setups:

2 N. Leleupi
2 Calvus Black
2 Julidochromis Transcriptus
5 Olive nerite snail

OR

5 Paracyprichromis Nigripinnis
2 Calvus Black
2 Julidochromis Transcriptus
5 Olive nerite snail

OR

5 Paracyprichromis Nigripinnis
2 Calvus Black
2 N. Leleupi
5 Olive nerite snail

I assume that the Leleupi's and Paracyps won't mix, or can I add them to the second setup too?


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## Wvack (Aug 31, 2008)

I'd go for option number 2! But you may want to buy more of each of the juli and calvus, to get them to pair out, and then sell the rest off when they do...


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

Yes I think option 2 but Get more Calvus, shoot for a trio and sell off the remainders.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

What are the dimensions of your tank?


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## cichlidiot75 (Feb 22, 2005)

47.244 inch length 120 centimeter
15.748 inch width 40 centimeter
19.685 inch height 50 centimeter

My problem is, I'm a sucker for all Tanganjikan fish that don't mix :lol: I will probably have setup #2 from my previous post, but I like Leleupis so much. But I won't buy them if it's not possible.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

If you want to keep leleupi, calvus and Cyprichromis, go for it.... That would be it though..


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## cichlidiot75 (Feb 22, 2005)

So this will also work?

5 Paracyprichromis Nigripinnis 
2 Calvus Black 
2 N. Leleupi


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## Wvack (Aug 31, 2008)

It should work, but i would by 10 paracyps, 4-5 calvus and Leleupi, and sell off the ekstras calvus and Leleupi when they have paired up...


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

IME, leleupi work in almost any set up barring small shellies as long as they are kept solitary. I would go with option 2 and add a lelupi if you wish. I would still up the calvus because your tank is big enough and you'll see them more if there is more breeding to be done ie more females.

I currently keep Enantiopus X5 in with 1 leleupi, 3 gobies, 8 Calvus in a 90. I'm plannning on moving the enants to their own set up at some point and replacing them with Stappersi but my point is that everyone gets along even with the presence of the leleupi.

For what it's worth leleupi are solitary in the wild so it would be natural to have a single in there. also they don't have many exaggerated spawning behaviors, it's more their hunting skill and day to day antics which are entertaining.

If drab is not something you're into, IMO paracyps are less attractive than Cyp Utintas. Look them up and see what you think. Paracyps are always better looking in low light.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Personally, I would start with 8 or so leleupi, and then just keep the nicest male, plus whatever females there are. I would also start with six Altolamprologus, then cut down the numbers to ensure a trio or so.


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## cichlidiot75 (Feb 22, 2005)

BioG said:


> IME, leleupi work in almost any set up barring small shellies as long as they are kept solitary. I would go with option 2 and add a lelupi if you wish. I would still up the calvus because your tank is big enough and you'll see them more if there is more breeding to be done ie more females.
> 
> For what it's worth leleupi are solitary in the wild so it would be natural to have a single in there. also they don't have many exaggerated spawning behaviors, it's more their hunting skill and day to day antics which are entertaining.


Allright, I didn't know about it being okay to keep a solitary Leleupi. What kind of day to day antics do they perform, I'm getting curious?

Anyway, I once got two leleupi's from a store that told me it's okay for a 35g to keep a pair in, then the dumbass sold me two males, so I always thought Leleupi's are something to be careful with.



BioG said:


> If drab is not something you're into, IMO paracyps are less attractive than Cyp Utintas. Look them up and see what you think. Paracyps are always better looking in low light.


I think shapewise paracyps look better, more graceful, and I like low light tanks. Also, paracyps all color up equally instead of having two nice males. By the way, it is the Paracyp Nigripinnis I'm talking about. The others I don't know.

Also thanks to everyone for the advice on having 3 calvus, they're so great to look at!


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## cichlidiot75 (Feb 22, 2005)

:fish: sorry this is a redundant post :zz:


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## Wvack (Aug 31, 2008)

I've had the paracyps, and they do look good... BUT! in my opinion they are quite boring... They don't move around much, just kinda hang around by cliffs...

ThatÂ´s why I'm trying the Leptoes now... See if they are a bit more "cheerful" :lol:


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## cichlidiot75 (Feb 22, 2005)

Wvack said:


> I've had the paracyps, and they do look good... BUT! in my opinion they are quite boring... They don't move around much, just kinda hang around by cliffs...
> 
> ThatÂ´s why I'm trying the Leptoes now... See if they are a bit more "cheerful" :lol:


You have a point there. Tanganjikans are fish that are mostly fun to look at for their behaviour rather than colour.


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## Wvack (Aug 31, 2008)

I just found a bunch of leptoes today at my LFS, and bought 12! most of 'em seem to be male, now i just hope they are more fun than the Paracyps...


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## cichlidiot75 (Feb 22, 2005)

Well, congrats! I just found a hobby breeder that won't charge me 120 Euros for 12 Leptos like most LFS do :thumb:

I mean, sometimes price of fish is not fair. What I want for my Tang tank would cost 120 to 170 Euros. That's well over 200 USD.

2 Jack Dempseys: 9 Euro/12 USD :roll:

Both would fill my tank....


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## cichlidiot75 (Feb 22, 2005)

Allright, I now know what to to with the cyps and leleupi, but I just saw some Caudopunks, and I reallly really like them. Would this work?

12 Cyprichromis Leptosoma
3 Calvus Black (2 female)
2 Julidochromis Transcriptus 
1 N. Leleupi
2 Caudopunk
5 Synodontis Petricola
5 Olive nerite snail


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

I think that would work depending on the rockwork and territory set up and it could be easily remedied if it didn't work (I.E. if the stock load ends up making things to much remvove a couple synos, if the territories don't work out pull one caudo etc.) Add your Calvus and Julis first so they can set up territories, next add leleupi x1, next catfish, next cyps, and finally caudos.

Every time I've added Caudos first or early they take too much territory. Adding them last seemed to equal caudo pairs which are more contented with less territory. Not sure if that's what science has found but it's what I've seen.

My last piece of advice is more tanks! Always more tanks!


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

I think that would work depending on the rockwork and territory set up and it could be easily remedied if it didn't work (I.E. if the stock load ends up making things to much remvove a couple synos, if the territories don't work out pull one caudo etc.) Add your Calvus and Julis first so they can set up territories, next add leleupi x1, next catfish, next cyps, and finally caudos.

Every time I've added Caudos first or early they take too much territory. Adding them last seemed to equal caudo pairs which are more contented with less territory. Not sure if that's what science has found but it's what I've seen.

My last piece of advice is more tanks! Always more tanks!


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## cichlidiot75 (Feb 22, 2005)

The rockwork will be a big pile of lava rock, with left and right a pile that extends more to the front and top of the tank, and in the middle a bit less. Seen from the top it would be a C-shape, with plenty of hiding places. I think I will give it a try.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Fogelhund said:


> If you want to keep leleupi, calvus and Cyprichromis, go for it.... That would be it though..


Don't forget this post!


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

cichlidiot75 said:


> Allright, I now know what to to with the cyps and leleupi, but I just saw some Caudopunks, and I reallly really like them. Would this work?
> 
> 12 Cyprichromis Leptosoma
> 3 Calvus Black (2 female)
> ...


You really only have two bottom territories to work with in my experiences. Chances are the leleupi will take one territory and the calvus the other.... leaving the others???? If you want Julidochromis and calvus, drop the other cichlids that are bottom dwellers.

Regarding the Synodontis, that is your call. I won't keep them with substrate spawners, as they will compete for territories, and attempt to eat the eggs/fry of the cichlids. Most often they succeed, leading to unhappy cichlids. Sometimes they fail, leading to mauled Synodontis.


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## cichlidiot75 (Feb 22, 2005)

I didn't know the Leleupi needs a bottom territory. And that synos are actually able to compete for anything 

I will stick to my first list then, thanks!


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

I have never had a single (meaning without a mate or competitor) leleupi strongly stake out a territory. I have a single Leleupi in with my enants and they're fine, breeding etc. They can be pushy from time to time and they dig but as far as violently defending anything while they're alone , haven't seen it so I think he's cool to put that one in there.

I don't think the Synos will be a problem apart from possibly bio-load. They will, if anythingg dither the leleupi, calvus and julis. This will be a super active tank to watch. I'm a calm tank watcher but that's me. If you like a busy tank, go for it.

Buying young juvi fish and growing them up together may help avoid aggression as adults but I don't think violence will be your issue here either way. My only concern would be the amount of catfish/cyps. I think this is an easy success with 2-3 cats and 8 cyps (I know 12 is reccomended but so is a larger tank so...)

HTH


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

BioG - you mention you have a single leleupi in with Enats. What other rock dwellers are in the tank? Have you kept single leleupi with breeding rock dwellers?

Have you personally kept Syno's in with breeding rockdwelling tanganyikans with success? Which particular ones?


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## cichlidiot75 (Feb 22, 2005)

I have seen tanks with single leleupi's, full grown, and they were minding their own business, ignoring tankmates completely. I have also seen young pairs bullying the **** out of eachother and tankmates. I must admit, the grown singles were in big 6' tanks and the small ones not, more like 35g's.

I wanted cyps and leleupi's to have some color in the tank, but the Cyps will break the bank. 8 of them are EUR90/USD120  I could stuff a whole tank so full of fish with that money, there wouldn't even be room for water 

I'm considering Astatotilapia Burtoni, They grow up to 5 inches, a group of two males and four females should do the trick. They're non-territorial and polygamous. And more rare. And one third of the money compared to cyps. and can be seen from a larger distance.

I'll drop the Cyps, cut down to three Synos, other fish can hide in rocks if necessary.

6 Astatotilapia Burtoni 2m4f
3 Calvus Black (2 female) 
2 Julidochromis Transcriptus 
3 Synodontis Petricola 
5 Olive nerite snail

What would a single Leleupi do now? :-?


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

Have never had burtoni so I can't comment on them. A clever geographical choice as they are also found in Lake Kivu which is connected to tanganyika. I don't know how they would do in this set up, but I'd be surprised if a single leleupi caused problems in almost any set ups (IE small shellies and leleupi don't mix) so throw him in there.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Getting back to territories... A. burtoni is essentially a fish that will utilize a cave, or bottom area of the tank to spawn. So now you are trying to find territories/homes for FIVE species in a 4ft tank. It just isn't going to happen.

Again BioG, which rockdwellers have you kept a single leleupi with, in what sized tank?


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## cichlidiot75 (Feb 22, 2005)

You are right about that. But the Burtoni spawns in open space substrate, not in the rocks.

I was at the LFS today, and I asked if they wanted to trade in my breeding couple of Thorichtys Ellioti for the three Synos I had seen there, with some extra payment. He was fine with that and he asked what else I was going to put in the tank.

So I said I was thinking A Burtoni, and he said he could order them if I wanted. So I come back with the Elliotis, and guy says: "you don't have to order them, they're right here already"

It's the lake Kivu version, with the orange back and black bottom. Just gorgeous. I bought 6 of them and 4 Syno Petricola. I guess I will take it from here with the tank


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## cichlidiot75 (Feb 22, 2005)

BioG said:


> Have never had burtoni so I can't comment on them. A clever geographical choice as they are also found in Lake Kivu which is connected to tanganyika. I don't know how they would do in this set up, but I'd be surprised if a single leleupi caused problems in almost any set ups (IE small shellies and leleupi don't mix) so throw him in there.


There's on from Kivu and one from Tanganjika. The Kivu looks better, imho.


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## cichlidiot75 (Feb 22, 2005)

Hi,

I got some good advice here, and some from the LFS (the kind of LFS where the personnel does not lie).

My 65G tank is now up and running since August with the following stocklist:

4 Synodontis Petricola 
4 Astatotilapia Burtoni 1m3f 
2 Calvus Black 1m1f 
5 Julidochromis Dickfeldi 
3 Juvenile J. Dickfeldi
1 Neolamprologusleleupi
1 pair of lamprologus brevis
1 Neolamprologus Sexfasciatus gold

Despite some negative advice, all is still going well with this weird stocking list. I bought them all as juveniles and they're now more like sub-adults. A quick summary of what's going on:

*4 Synodontis Petricola:* Minding their own business
*4 Astatotilapia Burtoni 1m3f:* Should have bought 4 females, extremely potent male. More than one male is not recommended for my 65G tank.
*2 Calvus:* One does not like the other, time will tell. They do receive some agression but they handle it well. They're now the smallest in the tank because they grow bloody slow.
*5 Julidochromis Dickfeldi:* I had 6, one died from pop-eye, one pair has spawned, three juveniles in the tank now as far as I know of...
*1 Leleupi:* Minding his own business, likes digging huge holes.
*1 pair of Brevis:* The male sometimes has a hard time defending his territory during feeding time. Otherwise they're all fine. Don't try this with smaller shellies though.
*1 Neolamprologus Sexfasciatus gold:* First a bit shy, now developing a bit of a bad temper in the morning. He hates the male Burtoni. If the Burtoni comes too close to the bottom of the tank, there's some agression but no real fights.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Are they adults or juvies? My Tang tank is just starting to show a little squabbling after a year plus being set up. I stocked with juvies though, except for the caudos and brevis. Oh and the calvus were already almost a year old when initially added to the tank.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

Some of these fish will take more than a year to mature. You will be experiencing some growing pains in this setup. lol


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## cichlidiot75 (Feb 22, 2005)

DJRansome said:


> Are they adults or juvies? My Tang tank is just starting to show a little squabbling after a year plus being set up. I stocked with juvies though, except for the caudos and brevis. Oh and the calvus were already almost a year old when initially added to the tank.


They are not fully adult but all fish are just mature enough for breeding if there's a pair. Except the Calvus, they're still too small, about two inch.


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## Darkside (Feb 6, 2008)

cichlidiot75 said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> > Are they adults or juvies? My Tang tank is just starting to show a little squabbling after a year plus being set up. I stocked with juvies though, except for the caudos and brevis. Oh and the calvus were already almost a year old when initially added to the tank.
> ...


Wait until that sexfasciatus is 6" long, that will be a mean fish.


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## cichlidiot75 (Feb 22, 2005)

I kind of expected that from the Sexfasciatus too. It looks so cute, but it has huge eyes, a huge mouth and huges holes in the nose, seems like a real predator then?

If the fish reach adult size I will evaluate wat goes well and put any fish that are bullied into another tank, if that would happen.


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