# substrate for amazonian tank



## jjmirks (Feb 9, 2009)

hi, i am going to set up another amazon aquarium, loaded with plants though. what would be the best type of substrate??


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

i like sand personally.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

If you plan on an Amazon biotope "lots of plants" doesn't realy fit. Most Amazon rivers and stream hardly contain plants. It's the lakes were planted aria's occur. For a real Amazon biotope I suggest lots of wood and only a few plants to give it the fresh look and to partly fit your wish for plants. One or 2 large echinodorus give a great effect and do occur in that aria (still rare dough) and Echornia azurea also looks great and is perfect against backgrounds. For substrate I recommend sand becouse thats going to give the most natural look and is easier to keep clean as well. If you like you could mix in a few hands of small grain gravel say 1/10 of an inch in grain size. Only a few hands give a natural effect but to much spoils it imo. A nice river stone or large flat pebble also creates a nice look and gives a nice contrast with the wood, plants and gravel and breaks up the flat sand structure. Adding leaves also can create a nice look. Lots of it like leave liter (be careful becouse it will increase the bioload in large quanteties) or just say 5 or 7 of them for decoration. Small parts of driftwood of 2 to 3 inch give an equal effect but doesn't need to be boiled, collected or replaced every 4 to 6 weeks. Just some idea's that fit in an Amazon biotope and to you what to do with it.


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## jjmirks (Feb 9, 2009)

thank you, and also, does that "special plant" substrate have a large effect on plant growth?


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Special plant? Know idea were you are talking abouth  I used Dennerle Deponit mix as plant substrate on all my planted tanks. It is a clay based substrate mixed with sand, minerals and peat. It is very nutritious (Echinodorus like that) and last for at least 5 years. It does have a large effect on plant growth! I don't know were the "special plant" question comes from but if you get it from one of my old tank profiles it is an expensive tube light. Nowadays I use common tubes and often the mix bright white and warm white.


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## jjmirks (Feb 9, 2009)

lol, yes, i meant the nutritious substrate


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

OK I already thought so. Here you go http://www.dennerle.info/EN/HG09UG03.htm and this is the stuff I use. I'm not sure if it is availeble over there and it is quit expensive. Most substrates don't last that long and need to be replaced every 3 years or so and considering this it is well worth the extra money. I also followed for most parts the Dennerle principal but stopped using the liquid bacteria, fertilizers except for the iron pils and use common bright white and warm white tubes (new generation like Philips 840 and 830 tubes) becouse the spectrum's are very similar to the "trocal special plant" and "trocal amazon day" but only cost a 1/3. I also used the heating cable in one of my tanks but found it not adding anything and even coused troubles with to hot aria's in the substrate. So if you keep away from the expensive stuff and use the basics behind the balance you will defenately have a very interesting philosophy to deal with. It also works with normal light levels like 1 to 1 1/2 WPG. CO2 is a possibility but imo it should only be used in aquascaping at a maximum dosage of 12 mg/liter (fairly save to use). So Aquascapers may jump on me becouse of my advice and experience is diferent to what Tom Barr and Amano preach. One big diference,.....my advice isn't commercial intended and I know you can do without the fancy expensive equipment. Good qualety substrate, around 1 WPG lighting with "bright white" and/or "warm white" tubes, a good iron fert and plants that will tolerate your water conditions and you'll be fine. That is if you still want the heavy planted tank. An amazon biotope will be much easier and abouth 1/2 the work :wink:


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## jjmirks (Feb 9, 2009)

thank you, and yes, still going for planted tank :wink:


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

OK,....a lot of work but if everything is in balance you should be able to have a living painting in your room. When you start off with the set up I suggest to put in as much Egeria densa if posible. It is an inexpensive plant that consumes a lot of nitrates and phosphates and actually cleans the water. The plant grows fast and makes it easier to get the tank in balance. Once the plant growth slows down a bit (abouth 2 months after set up) you can slowely replace the Egeria for the more fancy plants. This way you have the biggest chance to get the balance quickly and reduce algea blooms to the minimum. If things go wrong short after set up you won't need to worry abouth the expensive or delicate plants.

Some people will hate me for this and even a mod might disagree but it is very well posible to maintain a fancy planted tank without the expensive equipment and extreme high light levels. In fact,...I find it easier to do without. Plants might be smaler and darker colored but they are defenately hardier and stronger without the CO2. So pleas keep your eyes open and don't take home expensive equipment becouse some people with commercial interests tell you so!

So,....what is your tanksize and what are the plans for fish and plants and looks of it?


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## jjmirks (Feb 9, 2009)

the tanksize is 72x18x30, fish are going to be south american dwaves and tetras. plant sceme, i want a large variety of plants starting tall at the back and sloping down to the front. and as for the egeria densa, how many would i need? (also, would you recommend 72x18 or 72x24).


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Thats quit a large tank! To be honnest I don't like the dimensions for several reasons. The length is great and allows a large footprint which is good for every fish that claims a territory like cichlids. The height and wide is what I don't like. If it was me to choose and money would not be an issue I would go for 24 wide and 20 height. The wide increases footprint and makes it easier to create more virtual depth. The height of 20 makes it still posible to reach the lower back corner without using a scuba dive equipment :wink: My 90 gallon does have a height of 24 and a wide of 20 which makes it harder to create dept and it is very dificult to reach the back lower corner. I don't know abouth the standard dimensions over there but here in Europe 64x20x20 is a standard dimension. Tanks like that are defenately cheaper as the custom build tanks. besides that a tank of 30 inch height needs at least 1/2 inch thick hardened glass to keep the weight and pressure what makes the tank quit expensive. You also need lots and lots of light. The height of 30 inch makes the light level high close to the surface and low down to the substrate. This makes it hard to grow small plants in the front section. So the dimensions you plan on are expensive, hard to do maintenance and pruning, hard to provide good light levels near the surface and hard to create depth. At the same time the extra height isn't beneficial to the apisto's and other dwarfs. Will there only be dwarfs in there or do you also plan on larger fish like say angels, mesonauta or discus?


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## jjmirks (Feb 9, 2009)

yes, i was thinking maybe some discus and/or angels, where extra height would benefit. a 72x18 would be about $300CAD at my LFS. and i would get very powerful lights to compensate for the extra height.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

If you plan on dwarf cichlids you might want to go with Discus.

I only see the extra height as disadvantage and I rather would go for a longer tank in stead. During cleaning and pruning it will be dificult to reach the back and substrate. I hope you are aware of that. Abouth 20 inch height is sufficient for adult jumbo size discus.


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## jjmirks (Feb 9, 2009)

ahh, but for taller plants and its good, no?


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## jjmirks (Feb 9, 2009)

oook, a standard size for here would be 72x24x24 180gal, so i guess i will get that! thanks alot dutch dude.


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## jjmirks (Feb 9, 2009)

one more thing, how many dwarves would fit in there?


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

OK those dimentions sound much better and you will be able to create more depth. Still the hight makes it harder to clean but with a step-up or stair it will be posible and still keep your head abouve water :wink:

How many dwarfs you could keep in a tank that size depends on the species and aquascape. Fish like Apistogramma panduro are quit territorial and might kill other male apisto's. Apistogramma hongsloi, borellii, cacatuoides are mild manered. I keep 4 males and 4 females hongsloi and a male hoignei in a 90 gallon tank without issues. I have to say there is a lot of wood in that tank and they have plenty of caves and hiding places. I suggest not to keep to many diferent species in one tank but 3 to 4 species. To much diferent fish can look realy messy and will be harder to match their behaviour and temperament. So say 2 male, 4 female A. hoignei, 6 Bolivians and 4 L. dorsigerus for example. I'm not sure how everyone will get along dough. I have read more often that Bolivians and apisto's will be fine if the tank is large enough but if it will work out with the mix of the mentioned species I'm not experienced with. I suggest to start a new post abouth the stock of the tank and I'm sure you will receive plenty of suggestions. If you go with dwarfs you might want to consider not to add angels. Those can be mean and snack on tetras,...or female apisto's. Discus would be a better choice but they require a lot more work and dedication. Dough a proven pair of discus might be not to dificult.


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## jjmirks (Feb 9, 2009)

i was thinking some blue rams, app. nijsseni, app. agassizii, app, cacaaoides. and discus.


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## slickvic277 (Aug 20, 2006)

try this sight www.plantedtank.net you will find everything you need to Know and more.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

The Rams, Cacs and Agassizii should have quit similar temperament but the Nijsseni are from the Panduro group that are quit temperamented compared to most other apisto's. So I would not recommend the nijsseni in your set-up.


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## jjmirks (Feb 9, 2009)

ok, my bro and i went to our LFS and found a pretty nice 120g for 1/3 the regular price, so we got that. its 60x18 and not sure how high.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Sounds like a high tank but if it is only 1/3 of the regular price it will be a great deal :thumb:


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## jjmirks (Feb 9, 2009)

mhmm, also, what kind of lighting and filteration would you recommend?


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