# Fishless cycling without ammonia?



## jdt199 (Jun 17, 2009)

OK Im new to this and just set up my first tank.

See here http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=1344855#1344855.

I haven't started cycling yet, having just filled it the other day. I friend of mine has offered to give me a squeeze of his filter and some water from his tank to get some bacteria, but how to introduce the ammonia?

I'm not sure where to buy pure ammonia over here in England but I have heard of people using some dead prawns in a bag or dead fish. Has anyone done this and does it take long to the the ammonia levels up to 5ppm and can you use any other foods to create ammonia?

Here is a pic of my new tank just filled with water


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## MattH (May 23, 2009)

i personally used SeaChem Stability, i adds a bacterial foundation that you add each day for a week that gets the cycle started and avoids "new tank syndrome" worked really well for me in my 56 gallon, i have had 0 fish die in my tank and its been a month and im up to 12 fish in the tank. i personally didnt add the ammonia itself, the stability puts the helpful biofiltering bacteria in without having to do all that.


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## jdt199 (Jun 17, 2009)

I may look at that, I just wanted to avoid the cost I guess. How quicky does the bacteria colony establish with that stuff then?


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## MattH (May 23, 2009)

directions call for a larger initial dose on the first day then smaller doses every day for a week. after that week ur good to go. if you want to there are directions for adding more once a week to keep it established if you see that your nitrates/nitrites/ammonia are on the rise, but i havent needed to add any more. i got a bottle that treated 55 gallons for 1.99 at petsmart so it really isnt that much of a cost at all especially for the results!


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## jdt199 (Jun 17, 2009)

Well I was thinking I would need to sit it out for a month before deciding what stock I needed. After all I have read on tank cycling I feel short changed now! Anyway thanks I may well get some of that to save the effort.


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## MattH (May 23, 2009)

yep filled my tank and let it run while adding the biological additive for a week and its been totally fine. also be aware of water hardness and pH requirements for cichlids and you should be good to go!


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## davespeed3 (Mar 29, 2009)

I've recently set up six tanks for people and for various reasons beyond my control I've not been able to allow normal cycling. I used the dirty fine filter pads from my own filters placed in the media of the new filters, I also used Nutrafin 'Cycle' and managed to keep a very low stocking density to begin with, luckily everything has worked out well. I say 'luckily' as it doesn't work everytime and would recommend proper cycling over any 'urban myth', putting dead rotting stuff in the tank is not a good plan, nor is urinating in it etc.


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## jdt199 (Jun 17, 2009)

I have to admit urinating in it did cross my mind! :wink: What do you mead by "proper" cycling then? With fish or using household ammonia? I just cant find any household ammonia about thats not mixed with some cleaner of sorts.


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## davespeed3 (Mar 29, 2009)

Which ever method is used it can take weeks to build up robust colonies of bacteria, not just in the filter but also in the substrate and rockwork etc (not the water however, it doesn't hold bacteria) Using Ammonia allows you to build up enough beneficial bacteria to introduce nearly all your stock at once, as its added in measured amounts and tested. With other methods the bacteria may be present but not in sufficient amounts to handle a sudden large increase in bio load (fish) Fish need to be added slowly over a period of time, allowing the bacteria to 'catch up' after each introduction 
I've always used the 'old fashioned' method of using 'dirty' filter pads, bags of used substrate in the tank to 'seed' the new stuff and a couple of robust fish...and plenty of time!! It works but its probably not as safe and is becoming less popular. You try telling a customer they can't add fish for a couple of weeks and then only a few at a time :roll:


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## howajj (Apr 8, 2009)

you can buy pure ammonia at any grocery store just check the ingredients and make sure it is pure ammonia with no detergents. if you do fishless cycling using regular pure ammonia you can FULLY stock the tank all at once when done cycling. my latest cycle took 3 weeks in my 90 gallon


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## Rick_Lindsey (Aug 26, 2002)

I can't answer your question, but just wanted to say that I really like your tank setup.

-Rick (the armchair aquarist)


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

Like someone said above me, you can find ammonia at most grocery stores, but you should shake it first and if it bubbles it's no good. You could possibly buy some bio spira if you can get a hold of it in England.

You tank looks great but to me the right side looks too cluttered, it's personal taste but I love the big center rock and maybe not stacking the other rocks so high and moving them ahead would give a more natural look 

About the fish, male peacocks will look amazing in the tank with a trio or more yellow labs. Be sure to get quality labs .

Other then that your tank looks out standing and I can't wait to see it grow.

-Garrett


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## jdt199 (Jun 17, 2009)

I have found some pure ammonia solution! For anyone who is interested in the UK I found it a Robert Dyers.

Now hoe much to add to 190L to get 5ppm???


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## howajj (Apr 8, 2009)

you have no fish in there so add whatever you want...it will only feed the bacteria. with no fish in there there is no harm with a high ammonia spike. with all my tanks i put in so much ammonia the water would actually have a faint ammonia smell


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## jdt199 (Jun 17, 2009)

I thought adding too much took longer to cycle as ammonia actually inhibits the growth of the nitrite bacteria so the more ammonia the longer it will take to get to 0?


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## howajj (Apr 8, 2009)

i dont know about that but it takes me about 3 weeks to cycle a tank to were i can put anything in there and have no spikes


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## jdt199 (Jun 17, 2009)

Well I have addend my ammonia now to make up about 4ppm. For future reference I added 20ml to 190L to achieve this


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

> Now hoe much to add to 190L to get 5ppm???


Currently there are two "good" recipes available and tested by other hobbyists. 
1st method. 4-5 drops of NH3 / 10G / daily until NO2 peak, then reduction to 2-3 drops of NH3 / 10G / daily (this recipe uses ACS grade ammonium hydroxide ~28% NH3)
2nd method. This one is used by probably 99% of hobbyists. Addition of X amount of NH3 drops until Ammonia level of 5ppm is achieved. This X amount of drops has to be added daily until NO2 spike. Afterwards follow up with Â½ X (from previous step) amount of NH3 drops daily until NO2 is 0ppm causing NO3 peak. ~50% water change should follow -> cycled tank. (this recipe uses regular Pure Ammonia 4-15%)
Above pulled from the CF Library.
You need your ammonia test kit to find how much to add.


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## jdt199 (Jun 17, 2009)

> About the fish, male peacocks will look amazing in the tank with a trio or more yellow labs. Be sure to get quality labs .


It's definatly decided I'm getting male Peacocks with a few labs but how do you mean get "good quality" labs? I went to my LFS and saw labs for sale but I'm unsure how to assess their quality. What should I be looking out for?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I've been looking for this link and finally found it. Better late than never, I guess. Maybe it will help someone else.  There's a product available in the UK that includes the required ammonia called Start OK. Wish we could get it in the USA.



> Now hoe much to add to 190L to get 5ppm???


You just have to add some and test after 15 minutes or so and go from there as all ammonia is a bit different dilution wise. It's all cut with water, but can be by varying amounts. And unless your'e fully stocking with adults, I'd cycle to 2-3ppm. It'll be fine.



> I thought adding too much took longer to cycle as ammonia actually inhibits the growth of the nitrite bacteria so the more ammonia the longer it will take to get to 0?


I like to go about it in a controlled manner myself, but there are many ways to get there, I guess. I've heard the same about the high ammonia inhibiting the bacteria, but don't know if it's true.


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## alanrichie (May 6, 2009)

homebase mate, look for household ammonia 9.5% , its about Â£1.99

on a uk forum i go on everyone uses it to cycle there tanks, although i use Waterlife biomature myself and turn the heat up to 28c, cycles my tank in 15days. Any questions drop me a pm as im from the uk 

i used 5ml of biomature daily in my 165 litre.

i would go with Waterlife biomature mate, ebay it or google the store "fish fur and feather" about Â£3 a bottle there. iv pm'd you this post in case you miss it


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## jdt199 (Jun 17, 2009)

alanrichie said:


> homebase mate, look for household ammonia 9.5% , its about Â£1.99
> 
> on a uk forum i go on everyone uses it to cycle there tanks, although i use Waterlife biomature myself and turn the heat up to 28c, cycles my tank in 15days. Any questions drop me a pm as im from the uk
> i used 5ml of biomature daily in my 165 litre.
> ...


Thanks for that, I actually found some ammonia in the end from Robert Dyers and added to about 4-5ppm which I subsequentlry learned may be too much but hey ho. I also added a squeeze from my mates filter and he also gave me some "Nutrafin cycle" he had left over which I chucked in for good measure. Don't know if its any good but I guess it couldn't hurt? I have been checking ammonia levels regularly and cant notice any discernable difference (Test kit seems hard to read accurately) but my Nitrites have risen to 0.25 so I guess something is happening. Like the sound of 15 days though. Do you think its worth me getting some Waterlife biomixture now or should I just let it run its course?


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## jdt199 (Jun 17, 2009)

Right it seems the cycling is moving along now. After my initial addition of ammonia to 3-4ppm at the weekend my levels are down to just over 1ppm now and my nitrites are at 1ppm.

Im confused as to what to do next though? Some posts say let ammonia drop back to 0 the add more and some say maintain your initial amount (3-4ppm) until nitrites "spike".

Which should I do, and does a nitrite spike mean until nitrites start to drop?


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## jdt199 (Jun 17, 2009)

OK a quick update. Last weekend (6 days in) my ammonia dropped to 0 and since then I have been adding 15ml of ammonia every day where its been dropping back to 0 in under 12 hours! Nitrites are now well of the scale but as far as I can see nitrates are not rising at all. Is the cycle now stuck? I'm 12 day in and hopes to see a drop in nitrites by now. My water is at 30 degrees C and I added more bio balls to my filter the other day. How long is this going to take?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Is the cycle now stuck?


No, you're good. This part takes a while and always seems stuck. Stay the course. If seeding with media like you've done, you should see a drop any day now. It's sudden, not gradual.


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## jdt199 (Jun 17, 2009)

prov356 said:


> > Is the cycle now stuck?
> 
> 
> No, you're good. This part takes a while and always seems stuck. Stay the course. If seeding with media like you've done, you should see a drop any day now. It's sudden, not gradual.


Ok thanks mate, I was just worried as I thought I would see at least a gradual increase in nitrates as the bacteria slowly built up. I don't suppose you know why its such a sudden change do you?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I don't suppose you know why its such a sudden change do you?


It's just the way the bacteria mulitply by doubling. When numbers are low, the doubling doesn't have much impact, but in time the doubling has a dramatic impact. Start with $1 and double your money every day. The first week you've got $1, $2, $4, $8, $16, $32, $64, etc, but by the end of about a month you've got over $1billion. So, initially, the doubling of bacteria doesn't have as much affect as it will in time. All of a sudden millions become billions, etc. Make sense?

One day you'll test and it'll be at or right near 0. Not uncommon to go through thinking the cycle is 'stuck'.


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## jdt199 (Jun 17, 2009)

Makes sense, Ill just man it up and wait it out then I guess!


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## jdt199 (Jun 17, 2009)

Its Happening!!!

Sorry If I am a bit exited but after 8 days of nothing my nitrates are rising and I think nitrites have spiked! in 24 hours nitrates have risen from 5ppm to 40ppm. Its hard to tell if nitrites have spikes as there still of the scale but rather than the drops turning purple instantly on hitting the water it takes 30s of shaking to read the max reading (5ppm) so I assume they have spiked.

My question now is do I continue adding ammonia or should I stop until nitrites reach 0?


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## Ca-Delta (Jun 22, 2009)

Just completed cycling a 200 gallon tank using Chris Cow's fishless method and had the same concerns. It just isn't spelled out clearly in the formula how and when to end the process of adding ammonia.In my case after 2 weeks I was stuck at 1 ppm Nitrite and 10 to 20 ppm Nitrate . I spent a week stuck at this level.What I chose to do was cut the amount of ammonia added daily in half ( and did 80% water change)
Two days later after Nitrites were still present I cut the amount of ammonia in half again.
One day later the tank tested 0 ppm Nitrite and 5 to 10 ppm Nitrate.
It has tested that level ever since and I am preparing to stock the tank.
It was suggested that I substitute a few pinches of fish flakes for the ammonia but I wanted to see the process Chris Cow illustrated to it's conclusion.
Hope this helps


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> My question now is do I continue adding ammonia or should I stop until nitrites reach 0?


Continue adding ammonia until nitrite is 0 after 24 hours. Continue adding still until about 48 hours before adding fish. Halving or cutting the ammonia level isn't necessary unless you're adding too much to begin with.

Ignore the nitrate reading, it's not meaningful as most tests are measuring total of nitrite + nitrate. Your nitrates may not be rising at all, and it really doesn't matter at this point. What you're looking for is a drop in nitrite.


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## jdt199 (Jun 17, 2009)

Cheers for that I'll carry on. My nitrate tests are accurate I feel as Nitrates have been stable a 5ppm for over a week and all of a sudden they have jumped to 40 after I noticed the nitrite test take longer to register off the scale, but I take your point that there's no need to measure nitrates until nitrites have gone. I measured nitrites this morning and there now at 1ppm so nearly there!


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## jdt199 (Jun 17, 2009)

Nitrates are at 0! I have added ammonia again to 3ppm this eve and hopefully both ammonia and nitrites will be at 0 tomorrow. Time to order some stock.

With regard to the water change. if I build a python how do you go about removing the chlorine if using from the tap. Is it ok to dose the tank first then fill?


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Youâ€™ll get a lot of individual experiences/opinions on this oneâ€¦

According to the label on a bottle of Prime (my preferred conditioner)



> May be added to aquarium directly, but better if added to new water first. If adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume.


I have personally added dechlorinator directly to the aquarium and refilled with a hose for years without any problemsâ€¦

I use Prime and add approx 2x the standard dosage for the amount of gallons I am refilling, up to the amount of a single dose for the volume of the tankâ€¦ For example on a 100 gallon tank, when doing a 35 gallon water change, I would use x2 the dosage for 35 gallonsâ€¦ but when doing a 60 gallon water change I would use the 1x dosage for 100 gallonsâ€¦

I know of no reasons why other conditioners would not work in the same way, but I can only speak of extensive personal experience using Prime.


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## jdt199 (Jun 17, 2009)

Great, that sounds like good advice. I think for my first water change ill pre dose in buckets first just as I don't want to risk killing the lovely bacteria I've been growing for 18 days. I think from then on Ill try your method. I have stress coat will that be OK?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> if I build a python how do you go about removing the chlorine if using from the tap. Is it ok to dose the tank first then fill?


Yes, particularly if all that's in your tap is chlorine, not chloramine. I've dosed change water, tank water before adding, and tank water after adding (because I forgot  ). You're not going to kill off bacteria that fast.

Because I just have chlorine, I use a simple sodium thiosulfate that I've mixed up myself from crystals. I add a dropper full and guestimate drops. I've never been worried about adding precise amounts because I know what's in what I'm adding, and I know overdosing isn't a concern. You won't have that luxury when adding commercial products. It's hard to say what exactly they put in there product to stimulate the fish's slime coat. That's a fish's natural defense against some irritant. You might want to read this info on conditioners and come to your own conclusions.

I never understood why they recommend adding enough for the full tank, except that it uses up the product faster so you have to go buy more. You should only need to dose enough to handle the chlorine/choramine that's added regardless of how you dose.


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## jdt199 (Jun 17, 2009)

Im now stocked! I hope that's a good example of fishless cycling working well. Just under a month from new tank to stocked. Thanks everyone for all the help and advice you have given me to help get my tank properly cycled, Especially prov who seems to have a doctorate in the nitrogen cycle and a bottomless pit of knowlege on the subject! Just got to do a few water changes over the next couple of weeks as my nitrates are still at about 40.

Anyway here's a link to my post with pics of my stock.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=196276&start=30


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## toph017 (Aug 15, 2006)

gorgeous setup, and kudos on sticking with the fishless cycling.


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## Isis24 (Dec 10, 2008)

prov356 said:


> > I never understood why they recommend adding enough for the full tank, except that it uses up the product faster so you have to go buy more. You should only need to dose enough to handle the chlorine/choramine that's added regardless of how you dose.


My inclination would be to say that it's because chemical reactions aren't based on how much of a compound is in solution, but rather, the concentration of that compound in solution. If you don't add the full amount of conditioner, the concentration of the conditioner may be too low to fully react with all the chlorine/chloramine. That's assuming that sodium thiosulfate doesn't react strongly (completely) with chlorine in the water. It would be really interesting to know exactly how much thiosulfate is in a bottle of prime. Then we would knowhow much is actually required to fully neutralize our water! But then again....i'm sure they want to keep that a well-hidden secret.


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