# Can Fronts go with SA/CA



## travis2k (Apr 23, 2008)

I'm deciding on stock for my 700 Gallon
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... 2&start=30

Would Fronts be able to go with the stock listed?
If not, are there specific fish that won't work, and why?

I would like to add only a few 1-4 maybe
anyone tried this, any thoughts?

thanks


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## RyanR (Apr 29, 2008)

Hopefully you won't get painfully flamed for just the thought of mixing! :lol:

I've been half wondering the same thing, being a New World guy that seems to have accidentally gotten involved with frontosa this past weekend. After some research, I gotta say that it likely just won't work. There are different water requirements in terms of pH and hardness without much overlap. Environmentally, the fronts will be most comfortable in a rockier, low light setting with lots of hiding spots. The new worlds will like a more acidic, riverine environment... Finally, frontosa are peaceful, slow moving top level predators... they'll likely run into trouble with the likes of a JD. Aggression issues of any sort just aren't fun.

Finally, there's just the aesthetic component... which is the reason we like having fish in the first place. Fronts look their best in a bluish light... light in which the New Worlds won't look their best.

In short, to truly appreciate the beauty, personality, and behavior of *any* fish, you want them to be in an environment most conducive to show off their best. Mixing New Worlds and frontosa puts both in an environment that isn't the best for either.

-Ryan


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## travis2k (Apr 23, 2008)

Thanks For your insights, I have thought about some of those issues

now this part might get me flamed too, but I hope not.
Were I to keep fronts, or any africans for that matter, i believe in getting the fish
used to my water, rather than messing with a bunch of buffers, ph changers etc
(which myabe means I shouldnt do africans)

I probably wont ever pick lighting based on fish colors (but who knows)

The different enviro types (decor) is a good point

Lots to think about Thanks

as far as agression, can fronts be compared to any SA/CA cichlids or are the less aggressive than all of them is it.
What if it was more limited to Severum, Geos and Fronts?


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## RyanR (Apr 29, 2008)

With New Worlds, at least, stability is indeed more important than specific parameters (within reason). Some driftwood, etc will also keep the pH down... it also adds to a more natural environment for them.

For African cichlids, see what your water parameters are like. I was able to download a water quality report (which matches what I've tested at the tap). Our municipal water is slightly basic and moderately hard (softened from very hard). Our LFS can keep and breed Africans in our city water just fine. They look beautiful in the store. So for us, buffers aren't really necessary. See what your tap water is like, you may be just fine with tap water as well.

That our LFS was able to keep Africans in tap water (obviously with standard conditioners/dechlorinators) is one of the big reasons that I decided to adopt the large (7" TL) and lonely male frontosa that they had taken in as a trade and had not much room for in the store (just a small 25g tank). No one in town had shown any interest in this guy over a four or five week period...and my wife and I couldn't let this guy flounder any longer there. Plus, they practically gave him to us!  My plans are to find him one or two larger females needing a home and gradually upgrade his tank situation. He's in a 55g now. As soon as I can upgrade one of our 75g's to a 125g, the frontosa "project" will wind up in a 75g.

As for keeping frontosa with new worlds, it might be possible that you could keep frontosa in a smaller environment like a 125g with very peaceful CA/SA cichlids that are large enough to not to wind up as frontosa food. You're probably limited to single specimens of the New Worlds: once pairs form trouble breaks out. Even severums can be pretty bossy.

In a large scale project like a 700g, it seems a bit more risky to try the mix. On the plus side, there are lots and lots of fantastic New Worlds out there, and you could always do frontosa in a separate tank.

-Ryan


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## travis2k (Apr 23, 2008)

I'd love to do a frontosa tank, but dont plan on buying any more aquariums for a while.
I will check my tap water for hardness and ph and all that, I think I have all those test, havent checked those ones in a while.

I dont have to worry about breeding yet, all of my fish seem to be male.
I seem to have a wierd thing of picking male fish, not all are confirmed male yet, but I am pretty sure of most

I most likely wont get fronts, and if I do, I will make sure they are willing to take them back if it doesnt work.

I'm sure someone must have tried this before, if you did, what happened?


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## tirzo13 (May 26, 2004)

water parameters.
most tank raised fish, be it New worlds or old, are raised in the same exact water for generations, so the PH is usually not an issue with tank raised fish.
in a huge tank such as your 700 gallon, many things are more able to be done.
in 500 gallon tanks i have seen frontosa mixed with flowerhorn and peacock bass.
now something like that would be death for a frontosa in say a 125.

in a tank like a 125 severum or geos would be ok for a frontosa personality and ph wise.
dempsey's are not as aggressive as fish like midas, and i have seen the dempsey frontosa combo many times.

i'm not really into mixing types, i usually don't suggest it because most people dont even have 125 tanks, let alone a 700, so im worried if i say something has been done alot, every one with a 55 will give it a try.
there are things that can work in a huge tank that would never work in a small tank.


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## herb (Mar 23, 2003)

another point you should consider is diet does your sa eat same as fronts!!! something i am sure about is fronts are very slow to take in food, i have apple snails that arrive at food before fronts!!!! when they are in an aggressive eating tank they usually starve!!!!!


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## RyanR (Apr 29, 2008)

herb said:


> another point you should consider is diet does your sa eat same as fronts!!! something i am sure about is fronts are very slow to take in food, i have apple snails that arrive at food before fronts!!!! when they are in an aggressive eating tank they usually starve!!!!!


Wow. This is a great point! :thumb:

Indeed, larger CA/SA cichlids are very greedy when it comes to feeding.

-Ryan


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## travis2k (Apr 23, 2008)

definately a good point

thinking about that I think with the fish I have

the cons would be too aggressive they attack food , but I dont think i will put them in my big tank anyways,

the severums are much more refined, and gently eat food, but eat alot
the geophagus are pretty slow
the jack is suriprisingly mellow for his size

still not sure whether I will get any or not, but they look so cool every time I see them at the stores. I would raise the front(s) on their own until they were at least 5+ inches before introducing them, so hopefully getting food would not be as much of an issue at that size

Now I'm starting to wonder which would go well with fronts?
I think the Severum and the Geos would go well, the jack I think should be ok, I may modify the rest of my list if I decide on fronts, and get a few of them, and no oscars or paratheraps

so many descsions, so many nice fish


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## daniel4832 (May 8, 2004)

If you are not willing to give your fish the proper conditions, you should not keep them!!!
Daniel


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## travis2k (Apr 23, 2008)

> If you are not willing to give your fish the proper conditions, you should not keep them!!!
> Daniel


Thanks Daniel, this is the reason I am on the frontosa forum, trying to figure out if this will work well. What of the conditions would you consider improper? What do you think is the biggest problem with trying this? ( I would appreciate some reasoning, not just don't) water parameters, PH, aggression/aggressive feeding

have you tried this before, do you have a large tank?

Thanks


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## travis2k (Apr 23, 2008)

these multiple post popping up is frustrating (sorry for the double post)


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## daniel4832 (May 8, 2004)

Let me answer your last questions first, yes I have kept and bred Fronts a number of times. I also have a number of large tanks - at least 125 gallons, and at least 6 feet - the minimum size for keeping Fronts.
Before you get Fronts, or for that matter any new fish, do your research first. Just between the "Profiles" and the articles in the "Library" on this web-site, you will have excellent information on how to properly keep most cichlids. A lot of good people spent their time putting together this information on the proper care and upkeep of cichlids, and I wish more people would read this information first, before posting their questions! OK I'll get off my soapbox now. :roll:  
Thanks,
Daniel


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## daniel4832 (May 8, 2004)

Let me answer your last questions first, yes I have kept and bred Fronts a number of times. I also have a number of large tanks - at least 125 gallons, and at least 6 feet - the minimum size for keeping Fronts.
Before you get Fronts, or for that matter any new fish, do your research first. Just between the "Profiles" and the articles in the "Library" on this web-site, you will have excellent information on how to properly keep most cichlids. A lot of good people spent their time putting together this information on the proper care and upkeep of cichlids, and I wish more people would read this information first, before posting their questions! OK I'll get off my soapbox now. :roll:  
Thanks,
Daniel


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

daniel4832 said:


> If you are not willing to give your fish the proper conditions, you should not keep them!!!
> Daniel


Not sure what this means.

Anyway, I think this is an interesting experiment, and I don't mean that in a sadistic way. Certainly the experience of others cannot be ignored. But at the same time we shouldn't necessarily choose to be limited by those experiences.

As far as water parameters go that is not a problem. Very few people keep any fish at "ideal" conditions. And I am pretty sure in order to create ideal conditions it would require more than a couple $10 tests you buy at the LFS. And most people already keep SA fish with all kinds of cichlids. Ancistrus or Ottocinlus? So in my opinion you can throw that concern out the window.

As for feeding, I think it is stretching it to say that will be a problem. There are many fish tanks that successfully combine various fish with different diets and eating behaviors.

Now, fish behavior can, and probably will, be a problem. But there is only one way to know that. Just have a plan B.


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## colinrobinson (Nov 15, 2007)

What are the dems of this tank? If its long and wide enough and you dont really mind or can make it look good try a divider in the middle to keep the two groups of fish seperate. Also try and get tank raised fish that are raised in the same area/water type as the water you use. these are things that may help it work out. HTH
Colin


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## travis2k (Apr 23, 2008)

Daniel, I appreciate your opinion, I have read the profiles on here, the articles, a couple cichlid books, and spend a whole lot of time researching before I buy anything, I do not have any fronts yet, so this discussion is part of my research, I have been keeping cichlids for about 3 years now, and am on the forums nearly every day (mostly reading, rarely post) so I think I have my research base covered

I was more trying to find people with experience keeping fronts with other SA/CA fish, I also would like to point out, that what does not work in a lot of tanks, even "large" 125's may be able to work in a bit larger, mine will have 700+ gallons of water. (plus another 150 in the sump system)

From what I can see, the ph is not super critical as long as it is stable, the aggresion of fronts seems to be listed similar to sevs, geos etc, I dont plan on putting anyhting in that is more than "moderately" aggressive, they have similar diets, and I would keep a small colony of about 5 fronts ( as I beleive they are colony fish)... so I dont see how I would not be keeping them in ideal conditions

just so I can understand better where you are coming from, are you against mixing any species from different areas, or specifically fronts? What do you think of SA going with CA? Or other africans with americans (I have heard alot of people keep kribs with CA)

the tank is 96"x41"x43" I dont want to try a divider, but thanks for the idea, the lfs has some fronts in now, I will find out if they are tank raised, and where they come from

and I will make sure there is a solid PLAN B, before putting anything in may tank and will remove them if they are not thriving

Thanks everyone, and keep the advice coming


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## tirzo13 (May 26, 2004)

what is ideal conditions for a large fish that lives in a lake as big as a country?
20 years ago it was ok to keep a frontosa in a 55.
now people say it has to be a 6 foot 125 at least.
i think now that my 12 inch frontosa in a 6 foot tank is way too small. 
thats like keeping a guppy in a pint of water, is that really ideal?

besides reproducing the size of a lake, i doubt anyone can really copy exact water paremters, or exact diet.
so what is ideal?
it seems everyone has individual opinions on what is ideal.

captivity by definition can't be ideal.

beyond that.
many fish are adaptable.
they are brought up in the same water at fish farms in florida, or local breeders, so water is rarely a problem.
they all feed the fish pretty much the same stuff.
does brand $$$ have different formulas for frontosa and midas, not really.
so food type for the most part is not an issue.

what can be anissue is personality.
some fish are killers, some are not.
some fish may not bother frontosa, aggression wise, but maybe they are fast eaters, thus keeping frontosa from eating.

those are the two main things one has to think about when mixing fish.

beyond that, will the fish keep frontosa from breeding?
isn't breeding an ideal activity for a organism?

will the other fish nip fins and keep them from growing?
isn't full flowing fins, an ideal?

now i also don't think one should simply try something to see what happens, that can be cruel.
but if you do enough research, you will get an idea of what can work, and what is simply dead fish.
what one person thinks is ideal for captive animals, is another persons cruelty.


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## cichlidmama (Sep 7, 2005)

I kept Fronts with Blood Parrots, biggest front about 9-10" about the same as the biggest BP.

7 BPs vs 3 Fronts with a lone yellow lab. They don't interact a lot, ie BPs played with BPs and Fronts chased fronts. Interesting color and shape contrast.

BPs played sprawning regularly ... fronts? well all three are boys 

I would love to reduce the BP population to 2 pairs and trade 2 male fronts for 3 females. But where can I find three 4"+ female??


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## RyanR (Apr 29, 2008)

If all of the fish in question are tank raised and doing OK at the LFS, and your municipal water supply's parameters aren't too extreme, probably the only thing that is an issue is fish personalities.... and aesthetics.

Personality-wise, I just think it's a huge roll of he dice to put Fronts in with New Worlds... being basically bottom feeders, it's hard to get food to trickle all the way down with surface feeders present.

Also, they really do just want to have other fronts present. 

As far as aesthetics go. The environment of frontosa is the bottom of a "pseudo-marine" freshwater lake... whereas New Worlds are living in rivers. Fish naturally look their best in environments similar to their own. Because of this, fronts and New Worlds mixed togther just looks tacky. :lol:

-Ryan


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## travis2k (Apr 23, 2008)

Hey Ryan, How is that front you picked up?


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## RyanR (Apr 29, 2008)

travis2k said:


> Hey Ryan, How is that front you picked up?


He's actually doing really well. We put him back in the corner of the house where there's no traffic... got him a fancy, low wattage 50/50 actinic bulb, and he's with two yellow labs, one of which is a large female that got the you-know-what kicked out of her at the store, so we took her in, too. The labs have actually got him out of his shell.... sort of. :lol:

As soon as we can get a 125g online for one of our New World tanks, the Africans (just the front and two labs) will get upgraded to a 75g.

-Ryan


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## Heyguy74 (Aug 11, 2005)

Water paramters shouldn't be a problem mixing Fronts with CA cichlids. Most of CA has hard, basic water. Of course there are exceptions. Its the SA cichlids that tend to come from soft acidic water. My biggest concern would be aggresion from the large CA cichlids. Fronts may be big but tend to be wimps when compared with the big CA cichlids. I have a tankful of Fronts. I have also kept large CA cichlids. A foot long Jag is much more aggresive than any front I ever had.


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## travis2k (Apr 23, 2008)

> Fronts may be big but tend to be wimps when compared with the big CA cichlids


That is definately my major concern, I won't be putting in any fish like Jags,

Just to give a quick recap, the types of fish the fronts would go with are

Green Terror
Jack Dempeys
Paratheraps Synspilum
gold sevs
green sevs
rotkeils sevs
oscar
geophagus altifrons

I have not decided one way or another if I will try this, there seems to be alot of opinions and reasons both ways.


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## tirzo13 (May 26, 2004)

I have seen most of those fish mixed with frontosa in 125/180 with few problems.
in a tank over 240 there will be minimal problems, and you have a 700.
a tank your size allows for more peace.

I would not think about this in anything smaller than 125, at 700 gallons there will be little problems.

I seen frontosa with peacock bass, flowerhorn and midas in 500 gallon tanks.
I'd not do it, but i seen it, and the frontosa was not beat.

type of food is not a problem.
water conditions not a problem.
aggression in a huge tank with your species is not going to be a problem.

the main issue would be that the other fish are a bit quicker to the food then frontosa.
to deal with that, right before dark drop in some feeders that you bred. frontosa are a bit active later in the evening then other fish.


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## travis2k (Apr 23, 2008)

any suggestions on feeders for fronts? I could use a 29 or a 55.


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## tirzo13 (May 26, 2004)

travis2k said:


> any suggestions on feeders for fronts? I could use a 29 or a 55.


these are what i have bred for frontosa to eat.
electric yellows, angelfish, swordtails, convicts, midas.

i like angelfish for food the best, as they don't swim too fast.
the others are better hiders.

course with electric yellows, its not so bad if they actually make it to adulthood. I pretty much stopped feeding them this way, i don't want them to have a taste for fry and want to eat frontosa fry, which they would anyway.

convicts, midas and angels will get you the most fry, but they start out so tiny.
of those, convicts and angels require the least amount of space.

electric yellows, and swordtails don't have as much fry, but they start out bigger, and don't need a huge tank.

electric yellows, swordtails, and angels can be usually traded in for store credit.

pretty hard to get rid of convicts, but if you had the pink or calico ones store may deal with you.
you could get started with breeding electric blue jack dempsey and cull all the ones that come out regular, since you can really only sell the EBJD, not the regulars or hets.


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## travis2k (Apr 23, 2008)

Hmmm.

Thanks for all the suggestions Tirzo, I have done convicts, got 5, got a pair to bree, ended up with 80, had to cull a bunch. All went well with them for 2+ years, moved a bunch of stuff around, world war 3 broke out, now I have one con.

The lfs near me has a pair of wild scalare angels... they also have 2 ebjds they just got in, and I already have 2 full grown jack males.

The ebjd intrigues me some what, I had thought about breeding my jd's as I have a brute of a male and a beauty of a male. But didnt think there would be a big market, so if I can do the EBJD's feed the regulars fry as feeders, and keep the ebjd fry, we might be on to something.

but now Im wondering a little off topic

Now to figure out sexing ebjd... off to the CA forum


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## toffee (Feb 11, 2006)

Don't hate but I keep mine with a silver arowana. They totally ignore each other. One occupies the top and the others the bottom half of the tank. Water really hard from the tap so the aro has somehow adapted, it came as a 6" and now a full 24".


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