# Altum angel questions



## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

*** got some questions about these guys, *** always been a fan of them but never really had a chance to get em.

- what size tank do i need for a pair?
- what size on average do they grow to, assuming 7.5" isnt average
- how long will there full potential size take

thanx,

Gage.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

nobody? no altum angel lovers here huh?

BTW, i can get any tanksize i want custom made for me, and as long as it is under 100 gallons it is only 2 bux per gallon on pricing for the tank.


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## ryansmith (Apr 10, 2003)

Gage,

I think the important thing here is a tall tank. Altums are much taller and larger in general than P. scalare. I wouldn't keep them in pairs because of aggression. It's probably best to start with six or so. I've seen "pairs" (two individuals that are not spawning) put into tanks only to fight violently.

I'm not sure on the full potential size but I know that they take quite a while to mature. I've heard from some people that they don't even sexually mature until about 2 years of age. I've also heard it takes about this long for them to reach a decent size. You could always buy adults but they are probably very expensive.

The trick is finding stock that's healthy and acclimated. Altum losses are usually pretty significant during import season. Some people out there have a knack for treating them and getting them cleaned up. You're not located in the US, are you?

All I can tell you is that altums are not very similar to scalare. Behaviorally they're different fish. I haven't had a chance to own any but I've seen them several times and always stopped to watch and study them. I've also had good friends who owned them and mixed them with discus.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

Ryan


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

30" deep tank.

Seriously. These fish are so darn tall it's insane. Much larger than scalare, though slower grower. People that finally get them to adults, they do reach 8" frequently.

As *ryan* said, they are a totally differant animal. Water requirements are stricter than most wild caught discus, except heckels. And as *ryan* said, they are timebombs when first imported, most of them die off. For these reasons I've always been rather scared of them though they are one of my favorite fish. We had horrid luck with them when we got them into the lfs I worked at. Huge tanks are essential for water quality, and I wouldn't hesitate to pair a wet/dry with a fluidized sand filter. The only reason I say this is heckel discus experts have tried these in 300 gallon tanks with water exchange systems and still had problems.

The above refers to true altums ... now if they are the more common 'peruvian altum's ... well now that's differant. I think the peruvian's a prettier, but they are either a scalare variant or an undescribed species. Not as touchy or quite as big.


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## ryansmith (Apr 10, 2003)

Yeah, Peruvians are most likely a variant of scalare angels. They'll freely breed with tank-bred scalare. I have a few here. They're very aggressive within their own group compared to tank-bred angels but they're tough as nails. They are not quite as sensitive on water quality.

Altums are tough, too, but you have to get them over that initial quarantine period. Discus people seem to have good luck with them, but maybe it's because discus people are so used to focusing on water quality.

I think tank size is what keeps me from trying them. I'd want to devote a large tank to them but I don't have the room right now. They are tempting, though. Right now is the season for them. They're starting to come in.


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## star rider (Mar 20, 2006)

I agree with much of what has been posted.

the big issue is.. Nearly All Altums sold are Wild caught. there are very few documented successful spawns of Altums.
they can be picky about water quality.
But I believe much of the problem with Altums is the fact they are wild caught and suffer from the stresses associated with this.
including shipping customs etc..the fish are severely stresed and suffer a fairly high mortality rate. but that said. if you can get them thru QT they should be fine in the right conditions..

I have not had the chance to keep Wild Altums tho I am working on getting some . I do have Wild Peruvian(aka Peruvian Altums) they are Actually P.Scalare and it is apparent once you see them.

similar markings to Altum black /brown bars . mine tho, carry the irredescent blue markings on crest and ventrals.

if you want to keep Altums make sure the tank is tall.

good luck


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

are they that difficult to breed? really? wow, thats nuts.

thanx for the info everyone 

btw, so i couldnt keep a breeding pair (which is what i mean by pair) by themselves? they need to be in a group?


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## ryansmith (Apr 10, 2003)

gage said:


> are they that difficult to breed? really? wow, thats nuts.
> 
> thanx for the info everyone
> 
> btw, so i couldnt keep a breeding pair (which is what i mean by pair) by themselves? they need to be in a group?


Altums are notoriously difficult to spawn and raise. Only a handful of documented reports exist. They're right up there with heckel discus. Because of this, it's very hard to find a breeding pair. The best way to obtain one is by buying a group of six to eight altums and letting them pair naturally. It may take a couple of years for them to reach spawning age.

Check out this clip on YouTube: 




It gives you a good idea of the behavior of adult altums. You'll see how aggressive they are toward each other. You'll also see them chase tankmates around. I don't think you'd want to put two of them alone in a tank with attitudes like that. A larger group would allow the aggression to be spread out among several fish rather than concentrated on one individual fish.

Also, check out this video of two altums alone in a tank: http://s124.photobucket.com/albums/p4/A ... msedit.flv

These fish belong to Michelle Ricketts of the angelfish site Finarama. You can see why putting two altums into a tank alone may be a bad idea...

Ryan


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## star rider (Mar 20, 2006)

agreed typically with Altums.. large tanks (aids in stable tanks) and lots of Altums.

heavy cover helps.
let nature take it's course ..typically around 2 years to form pairs and even then spawns are not successful.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

oook, changed my mind, i dont want the headache with altum angels LOL, i have to many CA's to deal with LOL.

so,
what about scalare, *** found some altumish look scalare called "zebra angels" if i were to raise up a group of 6 and let them pair off, could i keep a single pair in a tank? or is it the same scenario with the whole group only thing.


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## exasperatus2002 (Jul 5, 2003)

I've seen them at the barnes & knobles book store in inner harbor MD. They have this huge amazon wall tank with altums & discus and a variety of tetras/characins. Beautiful display tank. This is one time where Taller is better when cichlids are concerned.


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