# Leleupi eggs?



## Ladyfish (Jul 21, 2012)

So the ongoing saga with my 55g continues... I have 14 Utinta cyps, still very young, and 2 leleupis, and 1 tropheus. The leleupis have been a blast to watch - industrious, lovely, and sometimes just a bit loopy. These are my first cichlids, so I'm just enthralled with them. And I love to tell stories, too, which means long posts; sorry about that and thanks for reading. I have loads of questions, as always! 

Last week, the black background on my 55g ripped when I was shifting the HOB during a water change. The tank looked just lovely with all the natural indirect sunlight looked coming in through the window (insulated, north-facing window, I might add, so no heat and no direct sun) so I left it off. Within an hour, my wee cyps were swimming higher in the water column, spreading out over most of the tank, and the 2 leleupis came out from their caves, swimming about. Really interesting behavior! And it gets better...

Later that afternoon, the smaller leleupi (female?) began doing the funniest little hip shake dance around the larger (male?) leleupi. She would do figure 8's around the anubias, she would turn a bit sideways and shake for him, and then swim off towards her cave. He just seemed bored and at times even annoyed, and would go back digging out his cave. I watched them throughout the day. She would dance; he was not impressed. The next day, same performance. She became very frantic! Finally, late in the third day, he began to show interest. This went on for a couple more days; she would dance, he would dance a bit with her, but never leave his side of the tank. Then suddenly about the fifth day, she completely lost interest, and spent the day swimming around the front of the tank. She no longer worked on her cave, she didn't even go into her cave. And she certainly showed no further interest in dancing! She seemed very carefree and peaceful. Meanwhile, he began digging out the entire corner of his tank with a ferocious intensity. The sand was flying! The sand piles are huge around his area now. Not only did he expand his cave under his favorite rock, but he laid bare to the glass in places around the rock!

Beginning yesterday, he stopped eating. I could tell he was a bit interested, but he wouldn't leave his corner to grab any food. He kept digging out his area, but not quite as industrioulsy. In fact, he stayed under his rock most of the day. Meahwhile, she has still been acting like she is having a day out on the town, frolicking and cavorting with her buddy, the tropheus.

Today, I dropped some pellets into his corner so he could eat in peace. It worked, and he left his cave, which is exposed on that side of the tank after all his digging. I quickly snapped a few pictures while he was out. And I think I see eggs! 

Now for my questions. Do I have the sexes reversed? I read that they lay their eggs in the female's cave. Is the big guy really the gal? And the little one the male? But the little one was definitely doing all the dancing! Perhaps she decided she liked his cave better, since he wouldn't follow her?

How long before they hatch? This is the first day I could see them, but the sand has been blocking the view, so they could be at least 2 days old, or even 3.

If/when the fry hatch, should I move them to a fry holding tank? What type do you recommend? Should they have a tank of their own, or a holding type tank within the 55? And when they are a bit bigger, should I move them to their own tank or put them in the 55g? Perhaps get another 20L for a growout tank? Or would a 10g suffice? There seem to be quite a lot of eggs! I suspect I'll have to rehome the lot, after they are large enough - 2 leleupis seem quite enough for a 48" tank!

I was about to buy a new tank (a 75g) today, because I'm so tired of that 12" width on the 55g, and move the lot. But I certainly can't move them now!

Here are some pics. Sorry for the crummy cell phone quality - this side of the tank is in a corner, and I had to squeeze my phone along the side. 

He is NOT happy with me pointing anything at his cave!










Eggs?! See the white bumps on the underside of the rock, and a few on the sand









I'm really excited! My first babies!


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Females tend to do the dancing with leleupi, and they are almost always smaller. Congrats on the spawn, you will need to move the fry if you wish to raise them.


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## Storiwyr (Apr 24, 2012)

Yay! Congrats! I know nothing about Leleupi, but I did read it all! Isn't it exciting having your first batch of little guys? I was over the moon when I spotted my first live fry in my tank.


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## Dawg2012 (May 10, 2012)

Not knowing about Leleupi's, and not having had any Tangs spawn - but would this not be a perfect time to move the adults to a 75g? Could then leave the eggs right there where they are and all problems solved (at least as far as trying to catch fry in a big tank - which I would think would be very difficult if not impossible without gutting the contents and even then...)?

Alternatively, could you just remove the rock before the eggs hatch, thus getting the resulting fry into whaterver tank they're going into? I'm not sure... and am wondering because I think I may have Juli eggs in a shell myself. I can't see them, but the one Juli has adopted a shell and I'm thinking she may have spawned there. Would be nice just to remove the shell/eggs and let them hatch in a fry tank.

But whatever the case - CONGRATS! :thumb:


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## Ladyfish (Jul 21, 2012)

Hey y'all, thanks for the congrats!! I'm pretty darn excited 

Dawg, you had some good suggestions. Move all the fish to the new 75g and leave the eggs. Main problem with that - the 55g is sitting where the 75g will go! I may reconsider and find a new spot for the 75g. Update as I was typing this: the guy with the 75g isn't available today after all and earliest is Friday. That would almost certainly be post-hatching. I think I'll go pick up a plastic breeder box - the kind that can sit in the current tank.

I thought about moving the rock. However, there are loads of eggs on the ground. Of course I could just leave them and be satisfied with the ones on the rock - there are quite a few there, as well! I worry that moving the rock will disrupt the sand and bury the eggs. He has them in a pile right now right next to the rock in the farthest corner of the cave. He moves them by fanning his fins over them, whenever the current starts to sweep them away. I also wonder how he would react to his cave suddenly disappearing? Given how obsessed he is right now, I don't think it would make him very happy.

So I've been doing more research - I saw a reference to the eggs hatching after 4 days. That means tomorrow or Thursday.

Feeding - Currently I feed the Cyps the .5mm NLS. Would this work for the leleupi fry? Or should I look for something smaller?


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## Dawg2012 (May 10, 2012)

Okay. I really know nothing about Tangs spawning and am learning as you go lol .

Removing the rock to a separate tank may have issues if the eggs don't have good water flow over them. They might need this after hatching as well.

I'm hoping others chime in as I'd like to know what to do if in fact my Transcriptus have laid eggs. Wish I could see in the shell lol...

Keep us posted, especially with those up close pics opcorn:


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## Ladyfish (Jul 21, 2012)

Dawg2012 said:


> Okay. I really know nothing about Tangs spawning and am learning as you go lol .
> 
> Removing the rock to a separate tank may have issues if the eggs don't have good water flow over them. They might need this after hatching as well.
> 
> ...


haha :lol: I feel the same way about most other people's posts - I'm learning from everyone's experiences!

I have a cool video camera set up on the eggs now, assuming daddy lelepi doesn't pile up the sand too high around the cave again - he was back at it again. I'll take vids after the eggs hatch and the fry start swimming, before I pull them - might work out, I've never tried. This camera is usually used on a sail plane


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## Ladyfish (Jul 21, 2012)

Eggs have hatched but no sign of fry anywhere that I can see. Female leleupi is starting her hip shake dance again - but with the tropheus, not the male leleupi. She seems a bit confused! In fact, when the two leleupis get close, they go into lip-lock stance - never quite touching, but threatening with mouths wide and bodies shaking. Is this part of the spawning ritual, or aggression?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

This is normal behaviour Ladyfish. Typically I would siphon on the newly free swimming fry into a small cycled tank, 10 gallon for example. If this was their first spawn, it wouldn't be unheard of for them to eat their own fry.


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## Ladyfish (Jul 21, 2012)

Fogelhund said:


> This is normal behaviour Ladyfish. Typically I would siphon on the newly free swimming fry into a small cycled tank, 10 gallon for example. If this was their first spawn, it wouldn't be unheard of for them to eat their own fry.


Thanks, good to know! Unfortunately, I never saw a single fry so they must have had a midnight snack.  I was not expecting that, considering how protective he was being! But yes, this was their first spawn, so they are undoubtably still figuring things out. Me too! Thanks for the reassurance - I won't get quite so excited next time. I did have a 10g all ready for them, at least


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## Darkskies (Mar 17, 2012)

If you go and look at fmueller's tanks(look at his website via google), his leleupi have spawned numerous times in his 240 gallon tank and the fry have matured in the main tank(with frontosa, julies, and a bunch of other fish). It seems like they are pretty good at defending their brood provided you have a lot of java moss, rocks, and perhaps some other plants and hiding places..


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## Ladyfish (Jul 21, 2012)

Darkskies said:


> If you go and look at fmueller's tanks(look at his website via google), his leleupi have spawned numerous times in his 240 gallon tank and the fry have matured in the main tank(with frontosa, julies, and a bunch of other fish). It seems like they are pretty good at defending their brood provided you have a lot of java moss, rocks, and perhaps some other plants and hiding places..


Thanks for the pointers, I really enjoyed reading fmueller's site! I do have some rocks, but perhaps not enough in that corner. I could throw in a pile of small that they could retreat to. The new plants probably don't provide enough hiding places yet - not big enough. Java moss - I'll have to get some of that. Cool - more ideas!


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Darkskies said:


> If you go and look at fmueller's tanks(look at his website via google), his leleupi have spawned numerous times in his 240 gallon tank and the fry have matured in the main tank(with frontosa, julies, and a bunch of other fish). It seems like they are pretty good at defending their brood provided you have a lot of java moss, rocks, and perhaps some other plants and hiding places..


Unusual circumstances in that tank, and I wouldn't at all suggest what he has experienced is the norm for these fish.


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## Ladyfish (Jul 21, 2012)

Fogelhund said:


> Unusual circumstances in that tank, and I wouldn't at all suggest what he has experienced is the norm for these fish.


Also a darn sight bigger than my 55g!

I bet they will give it another shot, now that they've figured out the basics. I did build a little pile of rocks close to the male's cave so I can siphon them out next time. I may even take Dawg's advice and remove the rock to another tank and let them hatch there.


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## sunnee1 (May 21, 2010)

Congrats on the spawn! I started with cichlids two years ago and the leleupi are what started it all for me. I love them, their look and their attitude! When I finally started getting spawns I didn't know exactly what to do-still don't. My first pair divorced after I removed the fry, I am sure she thought he "LOst" the fry and really took it out on him, the female banned the male to his cave forever after I removed the fry-again I am sure thinking He Lost the fry! After a month of him not being alloud to leave his cave I moved him to another tank, she died of sadness and he died a couple weeks later as well. The pair in my mixed tang tank also spawned and my thinking was I would remove some of the fry and leave some so they wouldn't biicker but the female shunned the male and never let him move again and killed him of heartbreak and lonliness and shame I imangine- and they were best buddies for almost the entire two years in there.
I have had a few pairs spawn and raise fry only to the demise of one of the parents (usually the female) after I intervine-I am sure-or so it seems. The few things I feel I know for sure is they are very good parents and the fry have been all over the tank(s) with each parent having a roll and reversing the rolls at times. And another thing I have learned is that they get very upset when something happens to the fry and take it out on one another. In your case of keeping the camera always on (or often) on him he had no choice to do what he thinks needed to be done to protect them and IME not from you but from the female. 
I will try to find fmuellers tank and check that out. 
Your fry could be deep in the cave, they are so small and elusive, I have also learned to leave well alone and when the fry are a few weeks old or so they show up, the removal or leaving them after some growth and care from the parent I always recomend but then what-leave them or remove-seems to be a catch 22 situation - for many of the tang species I am finding out though.


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## Ladyfish (Jul 21, 2012)

sunnee1 said:


> Congrats on the spawn! I started with cichlids two years ago and the leleupi are what started it all for me. I love them, their look and their attitude! When I finally started getting spawns I didn't know exactly what to do-still don't. My first pair divorced after I removed the fry, I am sure she thought he "LOst" the fry and really took it out on him, the female banned the male to his cave forever after I removed the fry-again I am sure thinking He Lost the fry! After a month of him not being alloud to leave his cave I moved him to another tank, she died of sadness and he died a couple weeks later as well. The pair in my mixed tang tank also spawned and my thinking was I would remove some of the fry and leave some so they wouldn't biicker but the female shunned the male and never let him move again and killed him of heartbreak and lonliness and shame I imangine- and they were best buddies for almost the entire two years in there.
> I have had a few pairs spawn and raise fry only to the demise of one of the parents (usually the female) after I intervine-I am sure-or so it seems. The few things I feel I know for sure is they are very good parents and the fry have been all over the tank(s) with each parent having a roll and reversing the rolls at times. And another thing I have learned is that they get very upset when something happens to the fry and take it out on one another. In your case of keeping the camera always on (or often) on him he had no choice to do what he thinks needed to be done to protect them and IME not from you but from the female.
> I will try to find fmuellers tank and check that out.
> Your fry could be deep in the cave, they are so small and elusive, I have also learned to leave well alone and when the fry are a few weeks old or so they show up, the removal or leaving them after some growth and care from the parent I always recomend but then what-leave them or remove-seems to be a catch 22 situation - for many of the tang species I am finding out though.


Thanks for all the first-hand knowledge! Really interesting about the female blaming the male for "losing" the kids. Hey, and who can blame her?! Sad that they died though! Amazing how involved they are!

I took the camera away right after they eggs hatched, just because I thought it might be disturbing them. He stopped guarding the cave about two days after that, and for a few days, neither of them seemed to care about the other. I saw a bit of fighting, too - threatening to lip-lock. The past day, though, I've seen them getting friendly again, so hopefully they will try again.

I just bought a 75 gal tank to replace this 55 gal. When I move all the rocks out, perhaps I will find the babies! If so, I'll probably leave them there and just move the adult fish. Hopefully with the new tank, they will make friendly again


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## sunnee1 (May 21, 2010)

Hows it going Ladyfish, whats happening with your leleupi?


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## Ladyfish (Jul 21, 2012)

sunnee1 said:


> Hows it going Ladyfish, whats happening with your leleupi?


Hi Sunnee, thanks for asking  They are back to digging and flirting, but no eggs in sight yet. I had removed the really big rock in anticipation of the move to the new 75g, so they had to resettle I guess.

Lately, I've seen the male and the Tropheus lip-lock fighting. Don't know what that is about! Is he jealous? The female does seem to prefer the company of the Tropheus. :?

I'm still working on moving the lot to the new 75g. The stand took longer to strip and refinish than anticipated, but I'm happy with it now. I'll probably start another thread to ask some questions about that tank. Still considering re-homing the Troph, even though he is a real family favorite.


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## sunnee1 (May 21, 2010)

Sounds, at least, like they are still friends-thats great news!
I don't know anything about Tropheus but I suspect it is a territory issue. In my mixed tang tank, by the way my largest @ 85 gals, I have a small duo of N. Compressicepts that I have seen lip locking and side nipping done to them by the leleupi and the N. regani, so far they continue to be otherwise civil and tolerable of one another. 
I did add a beautiful male leleupi just a couple days ago after two or three months since the female banned her first hussband from her life (and his own) and thankfully they took to eachother right away and seem to have maybe even spawned already! I am very happy about that considering my unfourtunate situations with all my other N. Leleupi pairs.
thus far.
Best a luck with your new 75 set up and your fish!


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## Ladyfish (Jul 21, 2012)

sunnee1 said:


> Sounds, at least, like they are still friends-thats great news!
> I don't know anything about Tropheus but I suspect it is a territory issue. In my mixed tang tank, by the way my largest @ 85 gals, I have a small duo of N. Compressicepts that I have seen lip locking and side nipping done to them by the leleupi and the N. regani, so far they continue to be otherwise civil and tolerable of one another.
> I did add a beautiful male leleupi just a couple days ago after two or three months since the female banned her first hussband from her life (and his own) and thankfully they took to eachother right away and seem to have maybe even spawned already! I am very happy about that considering my unfourtunate situations with all my other N. Leleupi pairs.
> thus far.
> Best a luck with your new 75 set up and your fish!


Sunnee, great news about the new male and his success with your lady leleupi!! :thumb: Looking forward to pictures of the little ones when they hatch!! I'm still hoping about my two. They are definitely very friendly, which is good news indeed!

The 75 is slow going, as I'm waiting on the background to arrive. At least I've finished the stand! Then I have to leave town for 3 weeks, so it will be November before I can get it in place. Where did the summer go?! :?


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