# **i think my front is holding** included pics



## jenandcoffee (May 3, 2008)

i think my front is holding, well I'm pretty sure, its hard to see in her mouth as she keeps it firmly closed, but i see her tumbling the eggs. whats really weird is on Thursday she was eating then all of a sudden yesterday i saw her tube dropped and her mouth swollen. How far along is she? i was reading some old posts and I'm confused.... how do i know if the eggs are fertile, im not sure if i should strip her, i don have a tumbler and i have no experience with striping at all.... i know the person i bought her from said she has had babies on more then 1 occasion - actually gave me 2 of them & they said they did nothing, just saw some babies during a water change.

i would really like to have some babies, not sure what to do...
i have other tankmates as well which scares me : 5 moori & 2 compressiceps firefins & 6 mpimbwe, should i remove her?

i also noticed the tank seems to be in a uproar, everybody is fighting, its normally a very peacefull tank( I've had this tank up and running since july)

here are some pics, i hope she is indeed holding and not sick..


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## lv8pv (Apr 6, 2008)

Looks like a holding Fontosa to me =)


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## jenandcoffee (May 3, 2008)

awesome!!!  what do i do?


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Congrats :thumb:

If you saw a tube and now she has a mouthful of marbles, then she is holding. No way to know if they are fertilized at this point. If you have a mature male in the tank, then I would assume that they have been fertilized.

What to do?
- What did the previous owner do??? Let her hold or tumble?
- stop taking pictures and leave her alone as much as possible :wink: some frontosa will swallow eggs if stressed.
- I would see if she will hold on this batch. Letting them hold (if they will) is preferable to tumbling.
- Since you don't have a tumbler, just see what she does on this clutch. If she swallows, buy a tumbler for the next time around.

Unfortunately, I have to strip mine so I don't know how long you should let her hold. 14 days seems to come to mind but I am not sure. Frontosa will take about 31 days from the time the eggs are layed until they do not have a yolk sac. I am not sure at what point you can strip "fry" without needing a tumbler. Probably close to 25 days??? Somebody else will need to help with that.

Good luck!


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## jenandcoffee (May 3, 2008)

Hey Razzo, im so excited!!!

in the pics above can u see the tube? i ask because this is about as big as i saw it, its almost as if it happened overnite, im sure that she has a mouth full because i can see something in there yellowish and shes also tumbling so i guess that's a good sign!

Yes i have a a mature male, not sure how old he is but hes about 8" i just hope that my current is not too strong as i have an fluval fx5, i have one pointing up and other pointing down in the direction to the filter intake and that's where she hangs out mind u its at the other end of the tank, so i think it should be fine.

the previous owner said he did nothing and one day they saw babies, he told that she has held a bunch of times but he always just let them be and eventually they were eaten.

so should i count from yesterday as day 1 when i noticed her? I'm curious what happens, she lays the eggs then how long does it take for the male to fertilize them, minutes, hours, days??

*please somebody else jump in* i need to know how long will she hold them for? i just want to make sure if shes holding for too long i will know when to try and strip the fry from her.
and at the point of striping her or if i see babies do i try to take them out? i have other fish in my tank, i dont want them to get eaten.

thanks


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

I'd count yesterday as day 1. Strip on day 29 and they should be able to do OK in a nursery tank. Don't feed them until the egg sac is completely gone.

Enjoy :wink:


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

these are good pictures to example a holding frontosa. her mouth is well extended, to form the cup under her 'chin', so she is likely to have 20-40 eggs right now. and you can still see her vent dropped in pic 2, so if she had room, she would likely continue to spawn. i have stripped females one day- and found them holding more eggs that same afternoon.
because of your tank mate list, if you want to keep fry, you should strip her. if you are comfortable with the process of stripping/tumbling, you can do this any day you feel prepared to. if you would rather fore go that ordeal this time, her fry should be ready for a floating fry cage/net after day 12-16. after day 16-20, the fry will be quite eager to leave her mouth, and she will have already begun to loose many. 
if the fry can spin in circles, the day you strip them, they will be fine without assisted water movement. if they are totally immobile, then you should consider adding a device to help them achieve a light, steady, constant water movement about them. if you have no tumbler, i found a plastic screening device, designed for some sort of kitchen use (obviously, i am a male...), at a 1$ store. it floats, so it works ideal for holding fry/eggs near to a bubble filter. other fish can tip it though, so a second 'Q' tank is ideal for this type of mothering. and fry will escape it when mobile, so assure the tank they are floating in has no predation concerns at all. HTH.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

lloyd said:


> ...if you would rather fore go that ordeal this time, her fry should be ready for a floating fry cage/net after day 12-16....


Thanks lloyd. I wish I mine would hold till day 16 :wink:

I had 14 days on the bain (must have read it somewhere before) - unfortunatly, I have to strip much sooner.


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

hi Razzo...my success with holding females really varies. some need to be stripped within a few days or i loose them all (moba, in my case). jenandcoffee's female seems quite the pic poser, considering what she has been doing the last day or two, so i bet she's a comfortable mom and will hold well. frontosa hold much better than gibberosa, IMO.
on a side note: i see increased aggression in plenty of my mixed african cichlid tanks when one species goes to spawn. they often calm right after. HTH.
her fry will not be free swimming at 12-16 days. but they should be OK in a safety net, as opposed to needing the critical extra care of a tumbler if stripped sooner, or potentially loosing many if stripped too much later. IMO.


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## jenandcoffee (May 3, 2008)

ok so i should wait for day *12 to 16 *and attemp to strip her, if not she might eat them or they will escape her mouth is this what i'm understanding? and at day 12-16 they will be ok to be in a kitchen thingy with plastic or metal mesh with and my sponge filter or air underneath and i wont have to tumble right?

how do i strip her without hurting her *****a step by step would be great!**** *im afraid i will hurt her......  do i use a net to catch her, wont this frighten her and she might swallow the fry? i have a 10 gal hospital tank that i can use for the fry, would that be good enough? what about mom, does she go back to main tank right after i strip her?

Where can i buy a tumbler? Lloyd i noticed u live in canada, i have never seen these for sale in any pets stores, do i have to order this online, if so can somebody pm me and let me know where i can find one.

thanks everybody i would be lost without this website! :wink: Jenn


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

jenandcoffee said:


> ok so i should wait for day *12 to 16 *and attemp to strip her, if not she might eat them or they will escape her mouth is this what i'm understanding? and at day 12-16 they will be ok to be in a kitchen thingy with plastic or metal mesh with and my sponge filter or air underneath and i wont have to tumble right?


 12-16 days is my personal choice to strip fry if no tumbler is available. depending on a few variables (most out of your control, other than water Q), the fry should be close to exceed the weight of the egg sac at that age. once the fry have developed enough tail to spin, success can be achieved with light agitation in a protective space. if the fry cannot move themselves at all, they risk infection. successful tumblers should force all eggs to roll continuous, which aids in circulation and cleaning. once a fry has a tail, it should be able to look after these details, so long as it does not get wedged against another surface. once a fry can sit upright, it is good to go, barring predation. and predation includes other fry nipping at yolk, so i like to get them out of a tumbler/dish before they reach any type of free swimming stage.



jenandcoffee said:


> how do i strip her without hurting her *****a step by step would be great!**** *im afraid i will hurt her......  do i use a net to catch her, wont this frighten her and she might swallow the fry? i have a 10 gal hospital tank that i can use for the fry, would that be good enough? what about mom, does she go back to main tank right after i strip her?


 net her at a time of rest. be quick and efficient. chasing her about may tempt her to spit the eggs, in an attempt to avert her personal risk. if you need to remove decor, do it before starting. i then place her and net in a 10x8x6h tupperware prepared with 4 inches of tank water. gently remove the net, and with a wet hand (left if your right handed) grab hold of the fish body. if she is too large for one hand i suggest you get a third. holding her firmly is easier on both of you. allowing her to escape will only tempt her to try again. to pry her mouth open, i use the rounded end of a hobby paintbrush. anything dull should work though. hold the fish on her side, just above the water line, and gently pry her lower lip open. tip her head downward, into the water, and eggs should start to fall to the bottom of the tupperware. a few repeats are often required, so do not be shy to allow her to sit back in the water while you both catch breath. keep a hand on her though to avoid her panicking free style. advanced stripping includes bobbing her in and out of water while holding her mouth open. this helps to flush more fry out from the very back of her mouth cavity. i would not be too concerned if you miss a few fry. 'mom' can be returned to the main tank right after this ordeal. just make sure she is released slowly, so she does not injure herself in panic. the 10 gallon will be fine for fry rearing, but they should be moved to a bigger water volume when they start to eat. i prefer to pour the fry out of the tupperware rather than attempt to net them. this is best done under water, to assure no fry are exposed to air. simply submerge the tupperware into your 10gal., tip it slowly to roll all fry to one corner, then gently tilt it so fry roll to edge. have a third person hold your final fry holding device under that corner, and all fry should fall gently from one device to the other as you lift the tupperware.


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

jenandcoffee said:


> Where can i buy a tumbler? Lloyd i noticed u live in canada, i have never seen these for sale in any pets stores, do i have to order this online, if so can somebody pm me and let me know where i can find one.


 pm sent.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

All good advise from llyod.

When I strip my fish, I do it a little bit different. I stip them on my schedule and not theirs. I do it when convenient for me. However, nothing wrong with the night time approach.

I start by removing my pvc and rock on the left side of the tank. I make slow deliberate movements as frontosa spook easily. I then herd the fish into the left side of the tank and net the holding female (I have a couple females that will actually swim into the net for me). I give the female a few minutes to chill out and then I grab her. Let me point out that either my wife, son or daughter help me with this process as it is a two man job the way I do it. Ok, I leave the net in the water, my wife will submerge the tumbler in the net and I hold the fish upside down, open her mouth with an extra stylus from my PDA, gently hold her mouth open and genlty slide the eggs into the tumbler.

I use two different style tumblers: one smaller (JEHMCO) and one larger which will be pictured in the following link. Sometimes, with Zaires (especially kapampa), you will get smaller batches of eggs. I use the smaller tumbler so I can get better water movement over the eggs. I try to get it where the eggs cover most of the surface area of the screen which enhances your ability to get a good tumble. I used the bigger tumbler in this thread. If I had to do this batch over again, I would have used the smaller JEHMCO tumbler.

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197646


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## jenandcoffee (May 3, 2008)

Thanks Razzo & Lloyd you guys are the best!!! =D>

Razzo that thread was amazing, now i know what to expect! it kind of makes me want to strip her asap and get a tumbler and watch the joy of transformation!!!


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

very helpful posting Razzo. that link made me recheck all my females again today. lol. there is not much prettier in cypholand than a tumbler full of kaps.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

jenandcoffee said:


> Thanks Razzo & Lloyd you guys are the best!!! =D>
> 
> Razzo that thread was amazing, now i know what to expect! it kind of makes me want to strip her asap and get a tumbler and watch the joy of transformation!!!


Thanks J&C  I sincerely hope that you do not have to tumble! Tumbling stinks. I wish my females would hold. Mine like to start swallowing eggs after a few days. I have to watch them like a hawk and strip before they begin to swallow too many. In general, the earlier you strip (provided they are not swallowing eggs) the more eggs you will lose in the tumbler. If your female wants to hold - that is awesome!!! Trust me, you don't want to mess with tumblers unless you have too :wink:

Bonne chance!


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

lloyd said:


> very helpful posting Razzo. that link made me recheck all my females again today. lol. there is not much prettier in cypholand than a tumbler full of kaps.


Thankjs lloyd


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## Ron R. (Oct 21, 2003)

Jen, you have received some great info already. Congrats on your holding momma!!!! Here's how I strip my wc mobas....

First, when I see a tube down, I feed the colony Hikari frozen mysis to spark a spawn. I usually see my males positioning themselves and chasing each other around the 180g. When I see a momma with a mouthful of eggs (like in your pic), I don't feed the entire tank for 5 days. On day 6 I feed lightly. I want to avoid offering something that the holding momma can't resist like frozen krill or mysis.....otherwise she may spit or swallow the eggs.

Sometimes the holding mommas mouth may reduce in size. Not all the eggs may have been fertilized by the alpha male. An immature male or one busy fighting off other suitors may not fertilize the eggs. I usually wait until day 10 or 11 post-spawn to strip the eggs. I use a larger double-screened tumbler. I bought mine from jrogo out of NY.

I use a large net and algae-scrapper with a long handle on it to herd (I'm from Texas LOL) the female into a corner and catch her. I pull her out of the tank and have a large white plastic mixing bowl.........about 14" wide........big enough for me to actually put my momma inside with about 4" of tank water waiting for me and the momma. I firmly grab the momma from the net with my wet hand. It's important before you hold your momma in your hand to wet your hand first and do your best not to remove alot of their natural slime coat. If you have been fishing before and have unhooked fish, you grab them the same way....right around the head so they won't slip out. I gently open momma's mouth using my fingernail and put the tip of my finger in the lower part of her mouth. You can use a the cap off a plastic bic pen as well. Once you open her mouth you are pretty much committed as the eggs can be damaged by her teeth or closing mouth. I submerse about 1/3 of her (mouth first) in the water. I gently move her back and forth and the egg-bound fry come right out. I move her around for about 8 sec. Just to be sure, I pull her out and look inside her mouth. I place her back into the tank. When I put my mommas back in, I hold them for awhile underwater and move them back and forth to let water pass thru their gills and then let them go. I watch the momma for about a minute because 1 or 2 times over the years I have had the momma almost burp/spit out 1-3 eggs that must have been deep inside her mouth. I used a smaller, fine mesh dipnet to scoop them back out of the tank and into my mixing bowl.

I get a good count of the eggs before I place them into my tumbler. I place my eggs inside the tumbler different than most people. I transfer the egg-bound little wigglers from the mixing bowl into a plastic quart container (like the one you get your chinese won-ton soup delivered to you at home). This makes it easier for me to transfer the eggs into the tumbler as I do this inside my 180g tank.

I submerse my open end of my tumbler underwater in my tank and slowly pour the eggs from the plastic quart container into the tumbler. All this is done underwater so the eggs gently float into the tumbler from the plastic quart container. I attach the upper portion of the tumbler to the bottom part that's now holding the eggs and run my stainless steel bolt through the holes I drilled through the tumbler (where the upper and lower portions attach and hold the tumbler together). Once the bolt is through, I attach the stainless steel nut and tighten it. I have had my tumbler's lower portion detach itself from the upper portion and lost several fry once. Again, if you are tumbling inside your tank with other fish, be sure to get a double-screened tumbler as fish will suck the delicious eggs out of the bottom screen.

You have to attach an air pump to the tumbler and you have to adjust a control valve to regulate the air flow. Set the air flow low enough so the eggs gently move in the tumbler. You don't want them bouncing up and down too much. Remember the tumbler is trying to simulate how the momma is gently moving the eggs inside her mouth.

I keep the fry in the tumbler until their entire egg sac has been absorbed and place them in diy floating nurseries inside my 180g tank. I begin feeding them NLS Thera A sinking pellets.......the smallest .5mm pellets once daily. While the little fry are inside the tumbler, small pieces of uneaten food are sucked up into the screen mesh and the fry begin to eat even with their egg sacs attached.

I'm adding a few pics of my tumbler and egg-bound fry at 10 days for you to see what they will look like and others. This is what has worked for me for the past 5 years stripping my wc mobas. I used to have my mommas hold full-term, but I decided to strip as I like them to begin eating again after 10 days vs 30 days.

Hope this helps you and congrats again!!!!!!









pic holding wc moba female. Not holding eggs, but just to give you an idea on how to hold. One hand would hold the fish firmly and the other to open mommas mouth.









F1 moba egg-bound wigglers at day 10 or 11









another pic showing double-screen









pic to show you stainless steel bolt and nut modification to keep tumbler safely secured

Here's a vid of the tumblers. Click on pic to view:



Another vid showing diy floating nursery and tumbler with larger fry


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

more good info from an obviously successful cypho breeder. thanks for adding on Ron R.


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## jenandcoffee (May 3, 2008)

hey Ron, thanks for the info & pics, i think this has turned into a really helpful tread!

update: mommy's mouth is not that swollen anymore but she still has eggs in there, i hope she makes it....

i fed them last night because my male has been very aggressive the last couple of days, chasing everybody, i think hes trying to mate with my smaller females, is this normal? how big do they have to be to actually mate? im not sure how old they are but they are about 4" in size. i feel bad for all my fish, all of them have injury's now because of the male.....

Question: i bought a strainer from the $ store, can the mesh screen be metal? i could not find a plastic one.

again thanks everybody! Jenn :fish:


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## jenandcoffee (May 3, 2008)

btw Ron, is that floating nursery a Tupperware that you drilled holes in?


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## jenandcoffee (May 3, 2008)

**update** had 6 beautiful wigglers today! and for all you newbies: it was my first attempt to strip & i was really stressed out but in the end its not so bad, a lot of stress for nothing 

i wanted to say thanks again to everybody, you made this smooth sailing for me!

And a special thanks to Lloyd "James" who was kind enough and went out of his way to send me an egg tumbler 

a couple of pics of my beauties: striped day 16





































im wondering about maintenance how often do i do water changes?

how long do i keep them in the tumbler? they were kinda moving a little!?

after the tumbler is putting them in the 10 gal ok or do i need to get nursery or something?
only once the egg sack is completely gone do i feed right?

Jennifer :fish:


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## Ron R. (Oct 21, 2003)

jenandcoffee said:


> btw Ron, is that floating nursery a Tupperware that you drilled holes in?


Jen, a rubbermaid container. You can use any food-safe container.


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## Ron R. (Oct 21, 2003)

jenandcoffee said:


> **update** had 6 beautiful wigglers today! and for all you newbies: it was my first attempt to strip & i was really stressed out but in the end its not so bad, a lot of stress for nothing
> 
> i wanted to say thanks again to everybody, you made this smooth sailing for me!
> 
> ...


Jennifer, great pics and congrats!!!!! You can put them in a 10g tank with a sponge filter. I like to keep my fry inside my 180g tank inside the diy floating nurseries. I usually keep my fry inside the tumbler until their egg sacs are completely absorbed and transfer them to the floating nursery.

I feed NLS Thera A..............the smallest .5mm sinking pellets 1x daily. I do 50% weekly water changes and add the cichlid buffer recipe found in the library here. The ingredients I use are baking soda, epsom salt and Instant Ocean salt measured based on the amount of water I am changing.......in this case, 90g of water.

Fry with their egg sacs still attached will eat tiny bits of uneaten food that gets sucked up into the tumbler. Some mommas holding eggs in their mouth will eat tiny pieces of food.....the egg bound fry get a chance to get some early food if it is small enough.


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

IME, time to remove from tumbler to safe grow area: turn off air supply to tumbler. if fry can hover in water column of tumbler, as opposed to lay atop each another in a pile, they are ready to move to a free swimming safe area.
i crush pellet/flake to a powder for first few weeks of feeding, and release a 1/2 pinch below water level, to encourage the fry to scrounge the floor. i rarely see egg bound fry in mid water or at surface area. 
i do not buffer a Q tank directly. i prefer to buffer the parent tank, then utilize that tank as a source for any Q tank w.c. if you do not buffer the parent tank already, as part of it's regular maintenance schedule, then i would suggest to not start now. 
and congrats on your successful endeavor, Jennifer. =D>


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

That's great Jennifer - CONGRATS :thumb:


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Ron, what is that orange stuff around the perimeter of the mesh in your tumbler? I use the same tumblers but don't have the orange stuff???

Thanks,
Russ


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## Ron R. (Oct 21, 2003)

Razzo said:


> Ron, what is that orange stuff around the perimeter of the mesh in your tumbler? I use the same tumblers but don't have the orange stuff???
> 
> Thanks,
> Russ


I think it's a gasket, not glue. It came that way from jrogo. I've used this tumbler for about 5 years now and never had a problem, in fact it's my preferred tumbler.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Ron R. said:


> I think it's a gasket, not glue. It came that way from jrogo. I've used this tumbler for about 5 years now and never had a problem, in fact it's my preferred tumbler.


I have several tumblers from jrogo and don't have the orange stuff (I was just curious). Maybe I need some orange gasket material in mine :? :lol:

Thanks Ron.

Russ


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## PepoLD (Dec 9, 2009)

loved your thread  any news?


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## jenandcoffee (May 3, 2008)

hi all update: everybody's doing well :thumb: including mom, she stopped giving me the evil eye, lol!!

pic at day 19










pic at day 21









pic at day 21









not sure when to take them out of tumbler, i have the air on low, and everyday i check to see if them can swim on thier own by turning the air off it seem only 3 out of the 6 can do it on thier own, so i think i will wait a couple of days...

i cant believe how fast they grow, its seems they change everyday : )
:fish:


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

any news?
how much bigger are they now?
my WC mpimbwes started breeding to and the are about 2 wks old.
they just doubled in size in the last 3 days while i was away.

this is by far the best part of this hobby.


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## jenandcoffee (May 3, 2008)

Little guys are doing great! Its crazy how fast they are growing.
and yes I have to agree with you, this so far is he best, its been a great learning experience! i'm just not sure what im going to do with them once they are bigger, i won't want to give them up since they are my first attempt but i just dont have the room, unless i get a bigger tank :wink: im running out of wall space! haha!!

pics of day 39


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## Super Turtleman (May 21, 2007)

How are they doing now? Any recent pics?


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## jenandcoffee (May 3, 2008)

they are doing great! since then i have had 40 more, some pics from about 2 weeks ago


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## Super Turtleman (May 21, 2007)

Nice, I just got my first group this week. Awesome fish!


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## gt eunuch (Nov 27, 2009)

So neat, I can't wait till mine have babies!


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## wadman (Mar 4, 2010)

thats cool. nice fish


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## PepoLD (Dec 9, 2009)

any update?


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## jenandcoffee (May 3, 2008)

all are doing well : ) i think its time to sell soon!


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## Aaron86 (Jun 2, 2010)

How long does it take til fronts spawn?


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