# Altum/Peruvian angels



## fightingfish (Apr 10, 2008)

Hey Guys, it's been sometime since I have used this forum since I got into marine. I might have to move later in the year so keeping my large 4x2x2 could not be an option.

Anyway my interest in the aquarium hobby spans throughout every area possible and I have definitely planned my next setup. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve learned that the natural elements in the hobby are the most attractive and when I saw some Peruvian angels my jaw dropped :drooling:

I know that they do not have the most color like a discus or blue rams but there shape and natural beauty in my opinion defeats any other fish i have ever seen!

Anyway just wondering if anyone has had either of these wild caught angels, I was told that they are extremely sensitive to nitrates etc and I was wondering what is the best way keep these down. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m also prepared to use ro water and heavily planted tank to reduce waste within the water.

Any advice would be highly appreciated.


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## aquariam (Feb 11, 2010)

The difficulty of keeping false altums is hugely overrated. You're talking about Pterophylum leopoldi and Pterophylum Scalare rio ***** altum right? As opposed to actual Pterophylum altum.. which is quite a PITA to care for comparatively.. Also looks odd IMO.

Anyways, you don't really have to plant the tank. I definitely hugely suggest going for R/O and using whatever method you find most comfortable to aim for soft, neutral, or slightly acidic water, ie, Kent R/O right, Seachem discus buffer, etc. If you've done S/W, piece of cake.

As far as keeping nitrates down, just do water changes every day or every two days. Angels are very easily damaged, so do make sure to be careful with every possible aspect of keeping them. I don't think scalare and leopoldi are easy to kill but they're easy to scuff, easily get fin damage, easily deform with poor diet or water quality, etc.

If you have a 4x2x2 tank, get about 12-15 fish, and give them a simple layout with branches and sword or sword-like plants spread around, which they'll use as territory and to spawn on, and see how it goes. Every group develops its own dynamic but you can usually manage to house a group of angels through adulthood if you do it right. Unless you just wanted to keep a pair with other stuff.. That works too.









(leopoldi) P. leopoldi








(rio ***** scalare) aka false altum/rio ***** altum P. scalare
Not that hard to take care of

















P. altum (note the forehead)
PITA (comparatively)


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## fightingfish (Apr 10, 2008)

Well i talking about any wild caught angel, including the true altum.

I was considering getting a smaller tank somthing like a tall 3ft


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## aquariam (Feb 11, 2010)

fightingfish said:


> Well i talking about any wild caught angel, including the true altum.
> 
> I was considering getting a smaller tank somthing like a tall 3ft


Don't get true altums man. Especially not in a 3 foot tank. If you take care of them properly they can exceed 12" top to bottom. I wouldn't do true altums in any less than a 4x18


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## fightingfish (Apr 10, 2008)

Well i guess it will be the false altums then


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## aquariam (Feb 11, 2010)

fightingfish said:


> Well i guess it will be the false altums then


You'll like the fish 





Here's a group of rio ***** altum.

Can you get those in Australia?

Also just out of curiousity, since in Sydney you can literally go find something new for your SW tank with a medium length drive and some snorkel gear and a bucket, why go FW?


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## fightingfish (Apr 10, 2008)

The expense of marine keeping is continuous and there is not that much you can keep in a tank found in Sydney harbour. Most fish are caught in Queensland.


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## aquariam (Feb 11, 2010)

fightingfish said:


> The expense of marine keeping is continuous and there is not that much you can keep in a tank found in Sydney harbour. Most fish are caught in Queensland.


I was not aware of that.

All of these fish are somewhat similar when they are very small, so you have to really trust the seller or buy bigger fish.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Hey *fightingfish*,

Check out Australian Cichlid Enthusiasts Forum, and ask what is available in Sydney at the moment. Wild caught Peruvian Altums (they are actually Scalare, but all LFS keep selling them as Altums) are ocassionally available.

True altums are rarely available and very expensive here in Australia.

*aquariam* the South east Queensland Marine Aquarium Society run fortnightly and monthly collecting trips for members tanks. They usually will put up a photo thread of thier collecting trips on a few local forums.

SEQ Aquarium Society marine fish collecting for April
S E Queensland aquarium society collecting trips for may


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## aquariam (Feb 11, 2010)

DeadFishFloating said:


> Hey *fightingfish*,
> 
> Check out Australian Cichlid Enthusiasts Forum, and ask what is available in Sydney at the moment. Wild caught Peruvian Altums (they are actually Scalare, but all LFS keep selling them as Altums) are ocassionally available.
> 
> ...


I'd love to go to one of those. Sadly I'm something like 14,000 Km too far to attend 

The 'peruvian altum' versus the 'rio ***** altum' are fairly different in that the peruvian tends to have a lot more tendancy towards blue and brown speckles on the body, less intense dark bands and no red tone to the forehead, while the rio ***** fish has the red forehead, usually no spots on the body, and darker lines.


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## fightingfish (Apr 10, 2008)

DeadFishFloating said:


> Hey *fightingfish*,
> 
> Check out Australian Cichlid Enthusiasts Forum, and ask what is available in Sydney at the moment. Wild caught Peruvian Altums (they are actually Scalare, but all LFS keep selling them as Altums) are ocassionally available.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info, i have seen these fish in one store and i know that alot of shops can order in true altums, however they don't becuase of the price. They would only order the fish in if it was a special order. By the way the peruvian angels cost $70 each


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## aquariam (Feb 11, 2010)

fightingfish said:


> DeadFishFloating said:
> 
> 
> > Hey *fightingfish*,
> ...


That's a little steep..

They're about 20 here for younger individuals. Even true altums go for about fifty or sixty here as adults.


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## fightingfish (Apr 10, 2008)

I agree that is steep, and that is supposed to be cheap as well. But then again the fish are wild caught then sent to germany, then sent to australia. That's what the store manager told me anyway.... If that is true then i can understand why the price is so high. Unfortunatly australia has a small population which means a small aquarium industry, so that is why it's hard to find wild caught fish at a decent price.


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## fightingfish (Apr 10, 2008)

I should also point out that Australia has extremely strict quarantine policies.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Yes we do have strict quarentine policies. We also have a strict import list of what is allowed and not allowed into the country. On top of that, we only allow live fish imports in to the country from certain countries and overseas brokers. Australia will not allow any fish to be directly imported in from the Americas, either South, Central or North. So any fish from South America usually arrive in Australia via Germany (and Glasser) or through Malaysia and the Phillipines.

Few LFS directly import thier own fish as they do not have the appropriate quarentine facilities. Those LFS that do import thier own fish often have to rent out quarentine space, or have spent a considerable amount setting up thier own facility. These LFS also tend to order most of thier fish out of S.E. Asia as they are cheaper, but often the quality is suspect. Otherwise there are two or three main wholesale import companies that supply the bulk of the aquarium industry.

All this adds to the expense of purchasing fish from an LFS. This is one reason why our forums trade so much in live stock. Once a person becomes significantly involved in the hobby, they find it much cheaper to buy fish from the many local breeders, hobbiests and club organised auctions.


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## fightingfish (Apr 10, 2008)

Honestly i don't mind paying a high price for fish as long as that price can be justified. With the Peruvian angels i would be happy with four if that is a plausible option.

IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m also concerned about maintaining ph, honestly I think itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s easier to do in a marine tank because all the have to do is maintain a high KH and everything becomes stable and fine, just throw in bicarb on a regular basis and bob is your uncle. How do you maintain a constant ph around 6.5 to 6.8 without throwing it out of balance? ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s not like a can simply throw in bicarb all the time. ThatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s what scares me the most, and water changes, do I really have to do them every 2 days? I would prefer once a week at the very least.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Water change schedule should really be dependant on the amount of waste produced by fish in your tank. If you have a lightly stocked tank you should only have to do a weekly water change.

In regards to your tank and planned stocking of Angels. Personally I would not have more than a bonded pair in there. I have a 3'x18"x18" that I have thought about adding angels to it, but just can't do it as I don't think they'd be happy when they are full grown.


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## fightingfish (Apr 10, 2008)

the only problem is finding a wild caught pair, now that will be hard.


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## MonteSS (Dec 8, 2008)

I just got four wild Peruvian Scalare. My first time with angels and they are great fish. Very healthy and eat like pigs. Not shy at all and eat out of my hand. They are in a 75g with Apistos. So far so good but we will see as they mature.

Crappy pic









....Bill


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## aquariam (Feb 11, 2010)

Those don't look especially wild caught


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## MonteSS (Dec 8, 2008)

The dealer is a very respectable source.

...Bill


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