# 29 Gal-Angels & Bolivian Rams OK? 1st SA tank, need adv



## tmcbride67 (Jul 6, 2007)

Hi,

I am trying to plan out a 29 gallon SA tank for my kids' playroom. A 29 gal is as big of a tank as I could fit in this room. Standard 29 dimensions: 30 1/4" x 12 1/2" x 18 3/4". I was thinking about getting a single pair of Bolivian Rams, some Angels, some small Corys, and a Bristlenose pleco. I would also like to add in a small school of Neon or Cardinal Tetras if the previous list hasn't already overstocked the tank.

This is my first attempt at keeping any of these fish, with the exception of the bristlenose. I currently have a 55 gallon Demasoni/Yellow lab tank, so I'm not new to cichlids, just new to SA.

I also want this to be a planted tank. Thinking of Cryps and Anubias with driftwood.

If the above species will work in this tank, what would you recommend as far as numbers and specific species for the Angels and Corys? Same for the Tetras, if I'm not overcrowded already.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


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## Hubbynz (May 10, 2008)

Go for a group of Bolivains.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

G'day *tmcbride67*,

Keeping Angels in a 29 gallon tank can be a bit of a touchy subject around here.

Angel breeders often use 20 gallon tall or 29 gallon tanks for thier breeding pairs, but these are pair only tanks.

Seting up a SA community tank in 29 gallon will be very different to having a species only tank.

For starters, I would suggest trying to find a LFS with some adult Angels, either for sale or in a display tank. Look at just how big they really get, both in length and hieght. Would you be comfortable keeping a pair of Angels with other fish in a 29 gallon tank?

Secondly, Angels are much more aggressive than many people think, especially amongst other Angels. A group of juvenile Angels would be fine, short term, in a 29 gallon tank. However as they mature, you may see pairs form, and a single pair would dominate in a 29 gallon tank, and possibly kill the other Angels.

I would think two pairs of Bolivian rams would be a good start in a 29 gallon tank. Add in the rest of your stock list, minus the Angels, and I think you would be good to go.


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## ginner (May 23, 2008)

I agree with DFF. Skip the Angels in this setup and the rest sounds good.


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## D-007 (Jan 3, 2008)

I also agree with not getting the Angelfish.

Depending on how you are going to filter the tank, I suggest first getting 6-8 Bolivian Rams to start with - nothing else - once the tank has cycled.

When you get a pair, trade in the rest at your LFS or sell them on here. Lot's of people look for them (myself included :wink: )

Then get your school of Neons or Cardinal Tetra's; about 6-10 of them. Side note, the Black Neon Tetra, _Hyphessobrycon herbertaxelrodi_, is a bit more hardier than the Neons or Cardinals but is also a very beautiful fish to consider.

Let them settle in for a couple of weeks and then get 5-9 Otocinclus to finish off the tank; they'll take care of the algea, if any, otherwise feed them zucchini (Courgette), Brussel Sprouts, Romaine Lettuce or Spinach.

Along with what you mentioned for plants, I'd also recommend some Water Sprite, Java Fern and an Amazon Sword plant or two.

opcorn: 
D


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## HONDO (May 4, 2008)

i have a planted 29 with the following stock:
1 angel
2 blue rams
1 bn pleco
cardinals and rummynose

i have swords, java fern and driftwood. it has worked well so far. the rams are not a pair but get along fine. the angel is the king (of course) and is getting big, but all is well so far. i am waiting for the angel to start picking off the cardinals, rummys are good size.

i agree with eveything you asked about, but the advice on the angel is good to think about. they do get big and mine sure has. hes got room now, but i think i may need to move him eventually.


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

You're getting some good advice. I agree about not putting angels in there. I believe Bolivian rams do better in groups (from what I've read). So a group (4-5) might be fine, with tetras and cories. There are Bolivian experts on this board, so you might do a search on those threads. I've had two before and found them obnoxious, so they got re-homed, but that was just my experience.

I would recommend rummynose tetras or black phantoms. Just my personal preferences. I love cories, so a group of 4-5 smaller cories, such as trilineated (sp?) or sterbai would be nice. I'm fond of my bristlenose plecos. I have an albino long-fin I wouldn't trade for anything. I do like otos, but they can be hard to acclimate and may have some trouble in a new tank. I think I'd advise waiting on those until your tank is more stable, down the road, if you get them at all.

Easy plants include anubias and java fern. Crypts are also good, as are vals, swords and crinium (onion plants). You do need about 1.5-2 watts per gallon for most of these, I believe. If you've not set up your tank yet, I'd recommend Eco-Complete as a substrate. It is a great help with plants. (I have two planted tanks, both are the same size with similar stock of plants and fish and C02 and the one with Eco Complete grows much better plants than the one with regular small pebbles as a substrate.)


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

For what it's worth, I had difficulty keeping angelfish in a 40G with Bolivian rams. Once the rams started spawning, they herded all the other fish to a corner of the tank. The angels didn't react too well to that, and I had some pretty severe aggression problems from them, and wound up having to remove them.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

There isn't to much to add to all the good advices already given. Me in person would also skip the angel. As for Bolivians your close to the edge for a small group. My advice is to have at least a 35 gallon for a group of 5. Your close to the edge but the problem is not the volume of the tank but the footprint (I assume the floorspace is 30x12). There won't be enough room for the territories. Bolivians do best in groups thats for sure. A proven pair is possible but there are also cases were the male can chase a female to death if he is willing to breed but she isn't ready yet. In a group this problem doesn't occur becouse atention will be spread over the entire group. If your tank will be a community tank you could also check out some Apistogramma species. The domesticated species like Cacatuoides, Hongsloi II and Borellii aren't to demanding. Most of the apisto's do best in a harem so one male and multiple females. There will be plenty of room left for a nice school of tetras and a BN pleco or Otocinclus. Besides that they are also fun to watch for kids becouse of the caves and spawning behaviour. A pair of Bolivians can be possible but is no warranty for success. They realy do best in groups but imo the footprint of your tank is to small for that.


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## star rider (Mar 20, 2006)

you can do a single Angel in a 29. but unless you have a bonefide pair I would skip adding any other angels.

as far as the rams.. hit or miss. the tank is fine as far as size goes but the problem is how rams would act if pairs form up.

do not do neons with angels.. Angels will try to eat anything they can fit in their mouths.. neons fit.

you could do corys with an Angel.. small school.

btw, a 29 is the smallest tank i would recommend for an angel. but I recommend it over a 30.


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## tmcbride67 (Jul 6, 2007)

Wow,

Thanks for all the replies. This has realy been helpful. The general concensus concerning angels seems to be that long term, the 29 is to small for anything other than a breeding pair. That being said, I'll probably pass on angels then.

Concerning the Bolivian Rams, it sounds like I should try and get a group of 5 to start. Once a pair forms, should I then remove the others? Are the Bolivians strict pairing fish or is it better to have multiple females per male to spread the aggression? Also, maybe an obvious question, but how do you tell when a "true" pair has formed?

Regarding locating a source for purchasing Bolivians, does anybody have any suggesstions? I am located in Cleveland, Ohio. I've checked most of the LFS's near me and none seem to carry them. I've found one or two that have German Rams, but none that carry Bolivians.

Just some other info on my planned setup if anyone is interested. As far as filtration is concerned, I am planning on using a Penguin 350. Hopefully this will be enough for a 29. I used to have this filter on my African tank until I replaced it with a canister. I've brought it out of storage and currently have it running on my African tank again to seed it. It's been running about a week and a half now. I figure 4 weeks should be enough for it to be ready to move to the 29.

As far as substrate, I was planning on using black 3M T grade color quartz. I originally bought 100 lbs of it for my African tank, which was way more than I needed. I have plenty left for a 29 gallon tank. Will this sand like substrate be OK with live plants?

I definately am going to get a long finned albino b-nosed pleco for the tank, possibly a male/female pair. I have the standard b-nose in my other tank and quite like them.

Finally, if I start out with 5 Bolivians, how many Tetras and Corys should I get? If I'm not getting the Angels, I'm guessing neons should be OK? Any specific type of Cory I should look at? Hollyfish, you mentioned trilineated or sterbai. Is it just a matter of personal prefference when it comes to Corys or are there other things to considder?

Thanks again for all of the input.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Should you wind up with 2 pairs in this tank, it might work out. It's all going to depend on how you define their potential "breeding territories". I had best luck with my two pairs by leaving an open area in the center, with two distinct areas for them to spawn on either side - driftwood, flat river rocks (that's what they always spawned on) and fake plants (cause I kill real ones).

I really had good luck with rummy nose tetras, and they are great for monitoring your water quality - should the water get in the least bit "iffy", their noses will fade! I would go with 6 of them.

I had the dwarf albino cories (can't think of the scientific name - it's totally left me) in with mine.

The thing is, these extra guys will eat your ram eggs/fry if they get a chance, just in case that's important to you.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

> Should you wind up with 2 pairs in this tank, it might work out. It's all going to depend on how you define their potential "breeding territories".


 Lots of territorial markers and sight breaks also help and often resulting in smaler territories (increased change it will work). Most fish that build a territory use markers like stones, plants, wood to create an imaginary border. The more markers the easier it is to create a border. In a bare bottom tank the only border is the tank it selves. In such a situation a fish specie can claim the whole tank. An open aria in the midle is always a good idea imo. This can be a suitable feeding spot and it provides a larger open aria for the fish to swim and or sand sift or what ever. The open aria can also become a save spot for both pairs to join and socialize. I also recommend to create sight breaks so the fish won't be seeing each other all the time. This is the most important in breeding time.

Bolivians aren't harem builders so you won't need to keep multiple females and one male. It is possible dough to do that and this way you do make sure only one pair can form. Three of them is warranty for trouble becouse one will be lonely and chased all the time by the other two.

A proven pair is when a pair spawned and were able to raise fry to at least 2 weeks. I will tel you why. Males Bolivians always go for the best availeble female. The goal of the males is to reproduce. When a female doesn't take care of the eggs or fry the male will chase her and try an other female until he has found an equal partner. I'm convinced this is the issue with keeping a single pair. There won't be an other female to spawn with if it doesn't work out. So the male will start pushing the one female. If she is a poor parent he starts pushing more and more. This can end in the male chasing the female all around or even kill her. Luckily this isn't the case whit all the couples but it can happen. Thats why I recommend to keep Bolivians in groups. There is an other reason for the group thing,.....thats the way they live in nature and the "agreasion" will be spread equaly. Several males can create a balance as well as long as their is enough space to retrieve to their own teritorie.

Why I recommended a proven pair for your tank (pair that raised fry) has to do with the footprint of your tank and the average size of a Bolivian territory. It can be possible and you might pull it off but there is also a chance it won't work out. I have to give proper advice and stick to my experiences. If you still want to try I suggest to work something out with the lfs so you can return fish when things go wrong.

Quartz sand often contains sharp edges,....this can couse injuries on the gills when Bolivians sift the sand. It can also be the reason why Corys lose their whiskers over time.


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