# Fantastic "cycle" article! and some ?



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

Here's the most comprehensible, detailed article on all types of beneficial bacteria, in aquaria, and how to exploit their benefits. It gives solid explanations for every one of the author's claims.

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.html

And now I have a few questions, if only perhaps for reassurance and/or permission to do something hasty lol!

This article supported, without really advertising, 2 products which can be faithfully relied upon for "instant cycling". "Fritz-zyme turbo 700" and Seachem's "Stability".

Being that, as the article informs, non-refrigerated instant cycling products like "Startsmart" etc. could only be selling heterotrophic bacteria because true nitrifiers are aerobic and won't live long without oxygen at room temp...

How does Seachem's "stability" support it's claims that it contains both Hetero and autotrophic bacteria? I'm asking because I have started the recommended course of stability (Fritz zyme was just too expensive to justify, although I have believed it to be exactly what it says it is for some time. It's just that my cycle is half over anyway so $60 (This includes ship) is pretty steep) and my only concern is that I'll add fish as the product suggests, and then the tank will crash in a month or whatever. Should I be concerned? The article kinda says I should be but then recommends seachem's product.

Here's my situation:
Been cycling a 150 gallon (+ a 55 gallon sump with about 40 gallons in it), with some seed sponge from other setups in the fish room. for 12 days. On day ten I added a dose of "Smart Start" to help things along and to try a new priduct (New to me). It, basically, did what it says it does barring a higher nitrite spike the next morning than I'm comfortable with.

So now I've gone, per the article's recommendation and my own trust in many of seachem's products, and purchased a course of "stability"...

So now my direct question is:

Will, more reliable and longlasting, Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacters grow gradually to replace the presumably heterotrophic bacteria that is, again presumably, doing the job of "instant cycling" so I DO NOT have to keep buying and dosing again and again?

I'm asking because my mind cannot tank another crash from this tank (See post titled: "Tank won't cycle)

Thanks again. And please  DOn't tell me to, "Leave it alone and give it time" :lol: . If you knew who you were talking to you'd know it's a divine miracle that I didn't touch the cycle for the first 10-11 days. :lol: :lol:

Thanks again everybody. Sorry for my neurosis, and to think I got into this hobby for the tranquility! :lol:


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## DrTim's (Jun 8, 2010)

I am really sorry to tell you this but that article has so many errors that it is not really funny.

Full disclosure I do make a nitrifying bacteria mixture but he does not sell it like he sells Stability.

But I did my Ph.D. on nitrifying bacteria in aquaria using advanced molecular techniques like cloning, DNA fingerprinting, a process called DGGE and others and I published all the results in peer-reviewed scientific journals. My findings have been confirmed by many other researcher around the World. If you want copies of the paper you can go to my website or PM me and I send them to you.

Kind of strange that he does not reference any of those papers in his article because what I discovered is that Nitrobacter is not the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in aquaria rather it is Nitrospira In fact, in the vast majority of aquatic system Nitrospira is the dominant nitrite-oxidizer not Nitrobacter. I also showed that there new, difference species of ammonia-oxidizers in aquaria and in freshwater aquaria it is not Nitrosomonas europaea.

As for some of the errors - a sampling:

1) Plants do not convert nitrate to free nitrogen as he says.
2) Free nitrogen cannot be used by plants - wrong many can not yes, but many can.
3)


> Atmospheric nitrogen (N2) is incorporated into our aquarium water by way of nitrogen fixing bacteria


 -wrong
4)


> Nitrifying bacteria change ammonium (NH4+) to nitrite (NO2-) then to nitrate (NO3-)


 - WRONG, nitrifying bacteria use NH3 (ammonia)
5)


> Denitrifying bacteria convert nitrate to nitrogen (N2) gas or Hydrogen sulfide


 - WRONG. denitrifying bacteria cannot produce H2S during the process of denitrification because you can''t change nitrogen to sulfur. That's like changing lead to gold - can't happen
6)


> Ammonia, in its neutral state, exists as ammonium (NH4+)


. What? Ammonia is neutral it has no charge (NH3). Ammonium is a cation ion (a positive charged ion).

I could go on and on - like he classifies nitrospira as an ammonia oxidizing bacteria - it is not.

My point here is that you need to be careful. I know it is hard, how are you suppose to know this stuff and I don't have a good answer for that but that is what these forums are for.

I hope you take this as I intend - just to educate and correct some of the many myths about nitrifiers

Cheers

DrTim


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

The article is both well written and well researched, but Dr. Tim is correct... it is as wrong as he points out. 
The author is likely someone like myself... a regurgitator who reads up on the topic but isn't directly involved in that field.

So... I hate to say this, but if you want an instant cycle you need to either cannibalize another aquarium, or buy the right product for freshwater aquariums. 
You could also plant densely enough to use 100 % of any ammonia produced and skip any cycling. =D>


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

DrTim's said:


> I am really sorry to tell you this but that article has so many errors that it is not really funny.
> 
> 4)
> 
> ...


I have a question about this statement. If this is in fact true, and ammonium exists as a non toxic form of ammonia at pH below 7, does that mean there is no nitrification below pH of 7?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I have a question about the same statement. If total ammonia in most tanks almost always consists of some NH4+, and nitrifiers use only NH3, then why is there not always an ammonia reading due to NH4+ always begin present when using test ktis that measure total ammonia? Something is converting, processing the NH4+. And what about the claims from the makers of Prime, Ammolock, that binding up free ammonia still leaves it available to nitrifiers?? This ammonium is handled by something, so what is that process?



> You could also plant densely enough to use 100 % of any ammonia produced and skip any cycling.


And keep only fish that like densely planted tanks? Too limiting without good reason. I'd rather cycle and keep my african rift lake cichlids.


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## DrTim's (Jun 8, 2010)

Hi all



> does that mean there is no nitrification below pH of 7?


The nitrification process slows as the pH drops and below a pH of 6.5 to 6 it basically stops. The writer of the article even mentions this:



> Low pH and Nitrification Important;
> It is also noteworthy that the primary nitrifying bacteria are affected by pH.
> PH levels of 7.5 to 8.5 are considered optimal for healthy nitrification of ammonia, and nitrites, as nitrification rates are rapidly depressed as the pH is reduced below 7.0. At 6.0 basically all nitrification ceases!


Ok, he is correct but why does nitrification slow and stop as pH drops - because there is not much ammonia (NH3) for the bacteria to use - it's all in the ammonium (NH4+ form).



> Something is converting, processing the NH4+. And what about the claims from the makers of Prime, Ammolock, that binding up *free ammonia * still leaves it available to nitrifiers?? This ammonium is handled by something, so what is that process?


Those are claims and note the key word which I have put in bold - these products either try to reduce the pH "locking" the free ammonia (NH3) into the NH4+ form or they report to add a hydrogen to the NH3 and make it NH4+. Why there is still ammonia available is because the pH of the aquarium water does not usually drop below 6.5 when adding these products (unless you add a lot and/or have poorly buffered water). So this means that you have converted say 98% of the total ammonia to NH4+ but that stills leaves 2% in the NH3 form so the bacteria work on that. And it not a static percentage - meaning once the 2% is used there is no more - wrong the 2% in constant given the pH and temperature stay the same. The process is kinda of like quantum physic (we'll see if this analogy works!) as soon as the bacteria convert a little ammonia to nitrite - more ammonium becomes ammonia and the bacteria have some more substrate to work on.

Say you start with 1.00 total ammonia at a pH of 8.0 and a temperature of 75.2 deg F. Looking at the chart below which is from my master's thesis on ammonia toxicity and ammonia excretion in fish you see that 5.03% of that 1.00 mg/L is in the NH3 form. The bacteria convert some the NH3 and now the total ammonia is say 0.95 mg/L ok well still about 5.03% of the 0.95 is in the NH3 form. And this continues when the total ammonia is 0.50 mg/L assuming the pH is 8.0 and temperature is 75.2 deg F 5.03% of the 0.50 mg/L is in the NH3 form.

Basically if you look at the chart there is always some percentage of the total ammonia in the NH3 form at the pH values and temperatures at which we keep our fish.

Hope this helps clear things up.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Basically if you look at the chart there is always some percentage of the total ammonia in the NH3 form at the pH values and temperatures at which we keep our fish.
> 
> Hope this helps clear things up.


Makes perfect sense, thanks.


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## londonloco (Mar 31, 2011)

BioG, I didn't read the article, my eyes glaze over when I get into the scientific aspect of this hobby. But, I can tell you I used Stability to cycle my 125g and it worked for me. I will use it again. I've been following a different thread on Dr. Tim's product, and it does seem to work also. Our hobby is constantly changing, new products pop up all the time, nice to see some actually work as intended!


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

It is all a bit confusing for me. Granted This is my hobby, not my livelihood. Honestly I've tried a few different things although I'm limited by my own impatience :roll: I have only recently heard of 
"Dr. Tim" but I think it absolutely professional and "old school" that he is in the forums, personally, looking for things to clear up and test his education and talents against.

Like I've mentioned in plenty of my nightmare cycle posts of late, I haven't cold cycled a tank in ages so I went into this thing at first WAY too cocky and non-chalant and then I went straight to the lfs to see what was available. These were my choices (Keep in mind that I KNOW that time and fish food would eventually have cleared up everything without me having to re-upp my nitrification knowledge lol! :lol: )

Bio-Spira (Used it years ago and it sucks for the price - My LFS 19.99 for 30 gal treatment, so like $150 or something for the 200 gallons I'm trying to cycle.

Startsmart (Total nonsense imo, only because it's indications seem to very much imply that if you don't redose this thing forever you're risking a crash.

Stability - Pros= say what you want but seachem is probably the most reliable and "boutique" name in the hobby so I trust them to at least explain why they think their products work. I don't like what I read on their website about "Prime" (I've used Prime for years and years). I'll not quote it but they claimed to have no idea why or how it detoxifies nitrite and nitrate. :-? That's weird. How do I know it won't interrupt nitrification in progress if I dose it then? We know it makes ammonia safe (I'm probably violating some of what Dr. Tim just said here :lol: ) for bacteria to consume without being toxic to the fish but what if it does something to make the nitrite unmanageable for whatever present nitrifiers were doing the job pre-prime?

Perhaps I'll just go back to using my homemade Thiosulfate mix for chlorine only until seachem figures out what exactly Prime is doing behind the scenes.

Dr. Tim Thank you for the educated corrections and pm sent :thumb:


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

DrTim's said:


> Hi all
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, basically, if one were to keep discus or altums at pH of 6 or perhaps slightly less, there would be no need of filtration. Water changes would be all that was necessary, and perhaps not even many of those.


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## dillon0990 (Jun 11, 2011)

I Disagree about the start smart by tlc being a waste. My lfs recommended it to me because they claim its the best. I used it and it worked amazingly.


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## krfhsf (Dec 25, 2008)

> Stability - Pros= say what you want but seachem is probably the most reliable and "boutique" name in the hobby so I trust them to at least explain why they think their products work. I don't like what I read on their website about "Prime" (I've used Prime for years and years). I'll not quote it but they claimed to have no idea why or how it detoxifies nitrite and nitrate. That's weird. How do I know it won't interrupt nitrification in progress if I dose it then? We know it makes ammonia safe (I'm probably violating some of what Dr. Tim just said here ) for bacteria to consume without being toxic to the fish but what if it does something to make the nitrite unmanageable for whatever present nitrifiers were doing the job pre-prime?


How can Seachem not know how Prime works? Can you link the claim you did not link? I looked I must have missed it. :thumb:


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## DrTim's (Jun 8, 2010)

Hello BillD



> So, basically, if one were to keep discus or altums at pH of 6 or perhaps slightly less, there would be no need of filtration. Water changes would be all that was necessary, and perhaps not even many of those.


hmm - no you still need some filtration. Ammonium (NH4+) will build up and this is not good - while NH3 is the toxic form at very high levels NH4+ can also cause problems so you still need filtration but the nitrifiers work very slowly so you have to limit the amount of fish (and food) and take it slow to establish the biofilter. I would never recommend keeping any fish in high ammonia or ammonium.

in regard to not knowing how Prime works I think it was referring to how Prime detoxifies nitrite and nitrate - in the article the authors writes



> Here is more information about Prime: "The detoxification of nitrite and nitrate by Prime (when used at elevated levels) is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite and nitrate is removed in a manner similar to the way ammonia is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in an inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart and use it. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion into a benign organic nitrogen compound".
> See SeaChem Support AND
> "Aquarium Answers: Aquatic Water Conditioners" for more information.


I guess not knowing on it works is not a problem for their marketing department


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

dillon0990 said:


> I Disagree about the start smart by tlc being a waste. My lfs recommended it to me because they claim its the best. I used it and it worked amazingly.


To do what? Did you measure ammonia, nitrite and nitrate daily and read 0 each day for ammonia and nitrite until nitrate started to show up?


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

prov356 said:


> >snip<
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is true. But if you get a little creative one could provide a refuge for a densley planted tank that shares the same water collumn as the DT(s) and the fish would never know it. I do this and though it might not completely eliminate the need for cycling it does work wonders on water quality.


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

\http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Prime.html
Last question on the page:

How does "Prime" make a difference in reducing nitrates?

to which seachem replied: "The detoxification of nitrite and nitrate by Prime (when used at elevated levels) is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite and nitrate is removed in a manner similar to the way ammonia is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart and use it. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion into a benign organic nitrogen compound.
I wish we had some more "concrete" explanation, but the end result is the same, it does actually detoxify nitrite and nitrate. This was unexpected chemically and thus initially we were not even aware of this, however we received numerous reports from customers stating that when they overdosed with Prime they were able to reduce or eliminate the high death rates they experienced when their nitrite and nitrate levels were high. We have received enough reports to date to ensure that this is no fluke and is in fact a verifiable function of the product." :thumb:

Startsmart might work great, stability seems to work and I haven't read a bad review on Dr. tim's yet. In order of trust I will go with Tim's first in the future (because scientific explanation and personal attention are as good as a test imo), next it would be stability, then startsmart, etc.


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## mccluggen (Jul 5, 2008)

I recently bought a brand new little ten gallon as I have been without fish for too long (thanks to the one two punch of getting laid off and divorced) and I couldn't wait for an appropriate time to set up a larger tank. I'm impatient, and I have tried some of the "instant cycling" products long ago but they were universally a scam, but I had some credit with amazon and decided to try some Dr. Tim's after seeing he was a sponsor here.

I couldn't find any ammonia in town that didn't have surfectant in it, so I was just feeding the tank with a bit of cheap flake that came in the kit. When the Dr Tim's arrived the tank had been running a little less than a week. When I added it there was about 2 ppm ammonia and no nitrites or nitrates were testable. 24 hours later there was a nitrite spike to about .25 and the nitrates showed a bit of color, but less than the first block on the test card. Ammonia was still around 2ppm.

24 hours after that and the ammonia was 1 ppm and no nitrites were testable and nitrates were up to 10 ppm. Over the next three days ammonia dropped out of testing range and for all intents and purposes my tank was cycled. Long story short is it did exactly what it was supposed to do. I expected pretty much nothing from this, but was pleasantly surprised. I'd recommend Dr. Tim's to anyone who is in the market for this sort of thing.

I will say that I had the tank turned up to 82 degrees and was running a large airstone and air pump to keep the water heavily aerated and turbulent in an effort to speed things up. I am not sure if those things effected it positively or negatively, but regardless the stuff worked.


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