# thinking of getting salvinis need help!



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

sorry for another poste but my other one didnt really display what advice i was looking for any more
i want to get a small community tank in a 55g
stock i want is salvini FM and possibly convicts 
combos i would like are 2 salvini's 2 FM's 
or 1 salvini, 1 FM and 1 convict 
or 2 FM's 2 cons and 1 salvini 
suggestions on the combo would be great! 
thanks


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

okay did some reasearch and having more than 1 salvini is a bad idea! 
i am thinking of going with 1 salvini and 2 FM's and possibly a convict as well 
any pointers would be great!


----------



## cage623 (Feb 2, 2008)

I hate to rain on your parade but I don't think too highly of this idea. While the tank seems large enough for these fish, you will run into problems if there are pairs formed. If you have a pair of anything in a 55 they will most like claim the entire tank or at least enough of it to make the rest of the tankmate's lives ****. This will get even uglier if you end up with two pairs. The chance of this is higher when you are tanking about cons, they will cross breed with anything. So with 1 sal, 2 fm, and 1 con, the fm's could pair off and so could the con and the sal. I had this happen once.

Why not one pair of any of the fish you are interested in and some dithers and BN plecos or something?

Now that I have more experience with cichlids (lets face it when we first start off we all want to try to keep everything we want in a 55 or smaller) I beleive that a 55 gallon tank is not an ideal community size tank. The foot print is just not big enough to allow for multiple territories that is needed for having long term success for multiple types of cichlids.

If I were you I'd pick one and run with it. Once you see how they interact in the tank by themselves with a large cluster of fry you will appreciate that there are not more cichlids in the tank.


----------



## trimac (Mar 27, 2003)

jamesman_1994 said:


> sorry for another poste but my other one didnt really display what advice i was looking for any more
> i want to get a small community tank in a 55g
> stock i want is salvini FM and possibly convicts
> combos i would like are 2 salvini's 2 FM's
> ...


Why not just stick to one of each as 2 of the same sex may fight a lot. I think a Salvini, FM, and a Male Convict would work maybe even a Raphael Cat.


----------



## BigJagLover (Oct 25, 2006)

I have tried this before only with one of each. All females and i still ended up with a pair bond. The con and sal paired up at around 3" in size. they terrorized the firemouth constantly. then after i removed the fm they turned on each other until i got the con out and put her in my 125 community. Then i got a nice big male sal and they lived happily ever after.

I sal go for a pair of sals. Put some giant danios in for dithers and a pleco if you want, i personnaly wouldn't but you certainly could.


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

i decided to not get a convict instead i got 2 small FM's around 1.5" and 2 jewl cichlids 
no sals in stock 
i am ordering on in tho 
mum insisted on getting jewls (i will move them once i get a sal)
btw my tank is heavily vegitated more than moste 
havent seen a tank as highly legitated as mine yet (except in the fish shop in the plant tank) 
i really like the salvinis and i am planning on getting one, i am in love with their color 
i was hoping to have a small community with just the 2 fm's and a sal 
i will make changes as it goes on if there are any problems. 
i have had cons breede in a comminity tank before. they attempted to take over the tank but the FM's was fare superior in size a woppin 4" hahah and the female can was only like 1" (she wouldn't grow) the male was about 3" i had some severums in there a fm a choclate cichlid and some other small cichlids
it worked well until i got this pink fire mouth (and before we have a big arguement on weather a pink Tmeeki is a fish, it is in my lfs, isnt a meeki it is some other type of cichlid but seeing as its gills are a bright pink short name is pink FM) any way the oink FM hated the other FM and it wrecked the community


----------



## justin3p0 (Apr 5, 2010)

if ur jewels pair up in u can call it game over on the field for the FMs

jewels can get nasty i kept jewels with jack Dempseys

and when jewels breed they get nasty

also fiemouths may be a CA cichlid but they really arnt to aggressive....

jewels are very aggressive if this works in a 55 ull be very lucky....


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

thanks for the heads up 
i am planning to move the jewls
seeing as i want to have a CA tank.
i was wondering what is the minimum size tank i can hold the jewls in?
my goal is to have the FM's and a salvini


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

the jewls are smaller than the FM's but they are both about the same length


----------



## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

IF I were you I'd leave the jewels in. Better to have a few more fish to spread aggression and actually make the community work out. Cichlids are aggressive ---- there are all sorts of possibiliities and potential outcomes. There is no certainty in it. If there is a problem, remove a fish or two, as the problem develops.
Convicts are no more inclined to pair up with another species then are most other CA ciochlids. Always a possibility in any CA tank. Also the possibilty of female pairs -- not that uncommon. And its not uncommon for some CA males to stake out territory and act the very same way with out a female, as they do paired up with a female. And their is always the chance of something unexpected or unlikely happenning: Currently I have a male jewel with female salvini pair :lol: A very strange pairing, but they have been together now for over 4 months, owning a territory and defending it together. They haven't laid eggs, YET,though I would think the eggs would almost certainly not hatch.

Breeding cichlids in the community tank can sometimes be too much for their tankmates, especially in smaller tanks. IME, breeding jewels are far less demanding of space then are convicts, or any other CA cichlid for that matter. A tough little fish, but far less nasty and less capable then salvini or even most cons.

IF you want a cichlid community tank to work, make sure their are enough tankmates, especially with the more aggressive species. One aggressive fish with only one or 2 tankmates is very likely to go on a seek and destroy mission eventually,and eliminate its competition.

My suggestion: 1 con, 1-2 jewel, 1 Female salvini, 1-2 firemouth, 1 raphael cat, 1 chinese algae eater, 1 blue gourami, and maybe some giant or zebra danios if you think they will make it. remove any fish that is picked on excessively or is overly aggressive.


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

that is one of the most lgical things i have heard on this site! i have never thought of it that way
that is probibly why my community tank worked last time, because there were too many other fish for the cons to pick on or the choclate brown!
currently i have 2 jewels 2 FM's 3 BN cats 3 flying foxes that survived an oscar for over 5 months (just traded the oscar in) 
so at the moment i have 4 of the 6 cichlids you have recomended
my LFS's dont have any salvinis at the moment and there is non on there ordering list so i am going to ask them to contact me when they are able to order some. convict will be easy to get and the gourami no problem. is the gourami needed? or would it be fine without it??


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

i was will poste some pics of the tank and is inhabitance to show you the deco in the tank (highly vegitated, multiple drift wood structres with a center piece of drift wood in the middle of the tank, i will make some caves and things for the fish to hide but it is almost impossible for a fish to see from one end of the tank to the other.)


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

bernie comeau you were saying that a jewls territory is limmited and wont take up moste the tank. and that if there is a good number of cichlids it wont be easy to have dominance over the tank. i all fails i can always move a ish into my 29g temporarily


----------



## justin3p0 (Apr 5, 2010)

uhh with african cichlids u want to spread aggression in CA cichlids ur just going to have a slug fest.....

if u stock ur tank like that it more then likely will not work

iv had my bumps trying to mix africans and CA and its hard and a 55gal isnt big enough.


----------



## sjwrx (Apr 15, 2009)

I agree with what justin has said. Overstocking CA's will just be a big mess. When i first started out and before i found out about this site, i had an overly stocked CA setup. It didnt work out at all, one fish will dominate, even if there were others of similar aggression levels. They might work out when they are small but as they grow and get bigger they will demand more space.


----------



## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

With aggressive CA, you most definately need to spread aggression. And there is most definately such a thing as understocking a CA cichlid community tank. If you really think only 2-3 aggressive CA are likely to co-exist long term in a 4 ft. tank then you either lack common sense, or lack experience keeping CA community tanks. I not saying it never, ever works, but geez, even a pair of aggressive CA cichlids seldom co-exists over the long run with out either a partial devider or other tankmates as an outside threat. And that`s a pair--- same sex, expect them to be even less compatible.

What constitutes over stocking! IMO, 4-6 smaller cichlids and 2-6 smaller non-cichlids and bottom feeders in a 4 ft. tank, does not. To spread aggression and make a community work, requires enough fish to do so, ---though not as many fish as usually required for aggressive mbuna.


----------



## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

jamesman_1994 said:


> is the gourami needed? or would it be fine without it??


No, nothing nessary, in stocking a blue gourami. It`s just simply one of many options. In my experience they have done well in the company of many CA, as well as jewels, though i have experienced a lot of problems with conspecific aggression amongst the ble gourmis (or gold), so prefer to stock only one per tank.

There are lots of other options other then salvini, so if they are unavailable, I would consider other cichlids instead. Salvivni are, IME, a more aggressive fish then any fish you have, or are considering, and that`s why I suggested a female rather then male. But ther are lots of other options: blue acara, festivum, severum, JD, just to name a few, have all lived fine, IME, with convict and jewel cichlid in a 4 ft. tank.


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

yeah i have considered blue acara, not the JDthough. wouldnt a JD get too large for that tank???


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

i am really liking the salvini so i would prefer one of them. the con wont be hard to get. and would a medium sized non cichlid be good for the tank?? possibly a cat fish or would something that uses more of the tank be better??


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

i have looked in one LFS and called another but still have 2 more that still might stock salvinis 
really hoping that they do because none of the breeders have them and it will be another week until they get their stock lists in! 
my stocking plan is
2 FM's (already have them)
2 Jewls (already have them)
1 salvini
and another small cichlid
instead of the con would a blue acara be alright, because i am worried about the con cross breeding?


----------



## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

I would try the blue acara. Kept them in the past with jewels and firemouth with out any problems. When they are young they can get pushed around some; good chance it will be bottom of the pecking order. But once they are more mature, their fairly capable of defending themselves. Never kept them with salvini but I would think it likely that salvini would be more tolerant of a blue acara then it would be towards CA cichlids ( like FM and cons). CA cichlids tend to be more aggressive towards other CA cichlids, though of course there can always be friction for dominance of the tank amongst whom ever is a competitor for '"top dog". In the long run, a salvini, male or female, is almost certain to become boss of your tank.

With 2 FM and 2 jewels, you'll have to keep an eye on the tank. If they are the same sex, especially if they are both male, don't count on them being compatible over the long run. Not impossible, but quite unlikely that 2 males of the same species will co-exist over the long run. I had two male jewels in a 6 ft. 180 gal. breifly, and I had to remove one, as it ended up being chased almost non-stop by the other. If you get pairs --- it might be too much on their tankmates and you may have to remove something. All depends on their competitors ---- if something can stand up to the pairs (like the salvini), a pair might be very undemanding of space. In the past, I have had a few pairs of FM, though they didn't actually own any territory as they were not capable of defending from most of their tankmates ----- so I never bred FM.

As far as another cat fish, there are probably quite a few choices for a cichlid tank, though I am not familiar with many of them. A raphael cat is virtually industructable, though your likely not to see it much, if almost never, as it will stay hidden in a cave or hole all day, every day. But with 3 BN plecs and 3 flying foxes, you certainly don't need another cat fish or anything else for that matter.


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

i think i will get a blue acara instead of the convict
i think that i will moste likely remove the jewls if there is trouble in the tank. 
also weirdest behavior by one of the jewels and all the fish i have at the moment 
they aree all grouped, they all swim together. one of the jewels keeps doing a dance thing to every other fish in the tank. is it trying to get a partner??


----------



## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

jamesman_1994 said:


> one of the jewels keeps doing a dance thing to every other fish in the tank. is it trying to get a partner??


Probably aggressive display, either to show dominance or call on any challengers. When directed towards another jewel of the other sex, then it may very well be an attempt to try and attract a partner, but towards another species, it is fairly unlikely.


----------



## wpk22 (Jan 17, 2010)

jamesman_1994 said:


> i have looked in one LFS and called another but still have 2 more that still might stock salvinis
> really hoping that they do because none of the breeders have them and it will be another week until they get their stock lists in!
> my stocking plan is
> 2 FM's (already have them)
> ...


i think having the potential for 6 cichlids in a tank is a recipe for disaster. be happy with what you got bc they will fill out nicely. i didnt read all of the posts in this thread so excuse me if is sound misinformed. but if those are breeding pairs no way will this tank work in a 55 gallon. your fish will be big soon enough and your tank will be filled out.

i think you should pick either the jewels or firemouths and go with that maybe adding a convict or a salvini and a catfish.

i dont think 2 jewels, 2 fm, and a sal will work for very long. i think you are overstocking your tank.


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

they are not breeding pairs and i would rather not have the 2 jewls they are temporary (mum picked those out)
i really want mainly CA/SA tank
i am really wanting 
2 FM's 1 salvini 1 blue acara and a con.
got the jewls at the time so mum would leave me alone.


----------



## sjwrx (Apr 15, 2009)

jamesman_1994 said:


> they are not breeding pairs and i would rather not have the 2 jewls they are temporary (mum picked those out)
> i really want mainly CA/SA tank
> i am really wanting
> 2 FM's 1 salvini 1 blue acara and a con.
> got the jewls at the time so mum would leave me alone.


Should be fine without the 2 jewels. Just make sure its well decorated with defined territories and to block the line of sight. You would still have to keep an eye on them and remove a fish or 2 if they start to become a problem.


----------



## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

I think your better off leaving the jewels in, and removing them, if and only if, a problem should arise. You got to start with some chance for succes, and a few more cichlids will improve your odds. Of course there are limits and if you severely overstock you'll probably end up with even more problems. But if you end up having to remove a fish or 2 or something should happen to die, then at least you are still left with something in the tank that has a chance to work. Trying to introduce new fish at a later date, once the fish have grown, is often a lot more difficult.

I have been on this forum for over 3 years now, and how many people have come with failed CA community tanks, after stocking only 2-3 cichlids. Quite a few! Geez, I wonder why? :lol: Duh! And generally they always blame the aggressive fish, as if it was the fish's fault! Show me some success stories (tanks that have been goin going on for many years) of 4 ft. aggressive CA community tanks with such light stocking? There is always the odd exception, but IMO, that's why people end up with a wet pet.

Conspecific aggression isn't a pretend thing. It's very real. Had salvinis now for 10 years now , always in a community tank, in many different situations with different tankmates, sometimes in as many as 4 tanks (3-6 ft.); bred them somewhere between 50 -75 times and am currently on my 3rd generation of sals. I can say, in all honesty, they can be quite aggressive, and like most other CA, aggression is most often directed either towards it's own kind or other CA. Of course nothing is certain, but more chance of excessive sal aggression towrds the con or FM, especially with a lack of tankmates. IMO, your better off leaving the con out, then leaving the jewels out. There's probably better chance of success keeping a con instead of salvini, though my understanding is it's the sal you really want. Actually, if you really want to improve your chances of housing salvini in a community tank, over the long run, you would have better chance of success housing it with mbuna.


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

ahhh  
Mbuna are african right?
well i will probibly keep the jewls but if i have any problems i will remove them. 
i would think that i could trade in the two jewls for a salvini. 
so your suggestion on the stocking plan is more is better (but not too much, i am thinking 5 or 6 cichlids)...
my plan
2 FM's (not sure gender)
1 salvini (preferably female)
1 blue acara
and a convict??
i will poste some pics of the tank. it is heavily vegitated (have had to cut the plants down about 5 times because of over growth) has some drift wood in it a rock cave and a drift wood cave. large peiece of drift wood in the middle. i am goign to grow the plants to about 3" below the surface or maybe 5" (they were poking out the top but are now about 6" under the surface. 
i will obviously change the size of the hiding places as the fish grow to occomadate for their size. 
Question: umm i am finding it difficult to get my fish to feed from the top, i know this happens all the time with new fish but it is frustraiting because it has been about 5 days and they still wnt eat from the surface. any tips on how to help them do it??


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

the jewls are breeding!!!!!!!
going to remove them and trade them in for store credit to get the acara!!!
needs to happen ASAP


----------



## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Yup, jewels often don't waste much time to start breeding ----- sort of like cons, in more then a few ways :lol: Of course you still have the option of getting rid of only one jewel, then you would no longer have a pair.

Yes, I think your better off starting with 5-6 cichlids for the few reasons, I have already mentioned. #1) it is usually a suffecient number to disperse aggression in a CA/SA tank. And IMO, that's a lot more important then some people think, in order to succeed with a CA/SA tank. #2) At a later date you may have to remove something. Or a fish may die (over the last few years I have lost fish in some strange and very unexpected ways, though most often with some fault of my own). Introducing new cichlids at a later date can sometimes be rather difficult.

If your really set on keeping salvini, you can always have mbuna as a future back up plan, in case things don't go well and the salvini becomes intolerant of the FM or con (or others for that matter). A few years back, one person had a 55 gal. with a female sal that kept eliminating her CA tankmates. She figured it was an unusually aggressive sal, but I sort of doubt that, as I don't think she ever stocked more then 2 cichlid tankmates. Anyways, I suggested mbuna and she tried it. I wish I could find the thread, but the search option no longer let's me go back that far (??). I read her comments on MFK, and she claimed the tank to be a real success, though she had this set up for only a year before she got rid of it, so it was not long term. It was certainly a big improvement over her innitial stocking, as the sal severely harrassed and killed all its cichlid tankmates.

Over the last 10 years, most of the time I have kept mbuna with salvini, and am currently doing just that in my 125 gal. Here's a link, which includes some video footage, of my 75 gal., almost 2 years ago. IMO, sals work very well with mbuna. Also, they come from very similar water chemistry, for those that like to bring the issue up, though with aquarium bred fish the point is rather insignificant. And it's breeding pair of sals; generally far more aggressive then a lone female.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=183666&highlight=

The kenyis managed to breed in this tank. When I moved, I favoured the younger generation, so i no longer have any of these particular fishes, but rather some of their offspring in my 125 gal.


----------



## trimac (Mar 27, 2003)

BigJagLover said:


> I have tried this before only with one of each. All females and i still ended up with a pair bond. The con and sal paired up at around 3" in size. they terrorized the firemouth constantly. then after i removed the fm they turned on each other until i got the con out and put her in my 125 community. Then i got a nice big male sal and they lived happily ever after.
> 
> I sal go for a pair of sals. Put some giant danios in for dithers and a pleco if you want, i personnaly wouldn't but you certainly could.


Doesnt mean it wont work. These fish are hit and miss. How could you have breeding pairs if they were all female? What the OP needs to understand with cichlids is that you will never have the perfect harmony and fish-thats just the way it is. Some fish will do well, where as you may have to remove a few fish due to their aggression. I have a 240 gallon community-4 of my cichlids have been together for over a year and they were only an inch-Last week had to remove one-due to its aggression. Now my tank is stable again-doesnt mean it will stay that way forever-that is the chance we take when we keep these fish together.


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

very nice i will defenetly go with them if my CA set up fails


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

now it seams as though the FM's have paired 
and the jewls have had egs for a day now........
i am going to wate till the hatch and soon as i am able to catch the babies i am going to take the parents and trade them in and grow out the babies so i can trade them in.


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

would it be possible to keep the FM pair and still have the other tank mates i would like??
so in the tank there would be 
FM pair 
1 salvini 
1 blue acara 
and 1 convict
would that stocking be okay 
i know that FM's arent the moste agressive cichlid, actually one of the moste placid cichlids
would them being a pair help them hold their ground and be less likely to be bossed around??
thanks


----------



## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

jamesman_1994 said:


> now it seams as though the FM's have paired
> and the jewls have had egs for a day now........
> i am going to wate till the hatch and soon as i am able to catch the babies i am going to take the parents and trade them in and grow out the babies so i can trade them in.


So you definately have to wait before you add any fish but two pairs might make for a great tank. You could probably do it for quite some time before you decide to trade any fish in. Breeding cichlids is always fascinating :thumb: 
Usually the easiest way to get free swimming fry is to siphon them out. You should check with your petshop and make sure that they will take your grow outs for trade ---- if not, you could always leave the fry in the tank and they are more then likely to be eaten.


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

well the jewls are too agressive towards the FM's and they have laid their eggs in the middle of the tank 
i would much rather just have the FM's and the other stocking (umm also only one of the FM's is coloured up and seams to be trying to get the female to spawn so it hasn't happened yet)
i would like to get more tank mates befor they spawn and take up the whole tank....


----------



## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

jamesman_1994 said:


> would it be possible to keep the FM pair and still have the other tank mates i would like??
> so in the tank there would be
> FM pair
> 1 salvini
> ...


Possibly, but introduction with an already established FM pair might be tricky. I think you would have to remove the FM pair temporarily, until the new fish are established. And I think you would be best to start with a sal and con that are similar sized or even larger then the FM. It's potentially a very rough tank for a juvie blue acara; might get picked on, or then again it might utilise the upper areas more, where the other cichlids have less interest in. Certainly as a mature adult, a blue acara will utilise the upper portions of the tank somewhat more then your other choices. Anyways, if it proves too much, you could always remove a picked on fish, or get rid of one of the FM.

By the way, if at some future date, if you ever do consider keeping mbuna with a sal in a 55 gal., DO NOT choose auratus or kenyi :lol: They are super hyper-aggressive species that could prove to be a supreme problem amongst themselves in a 55 gal. I've kept sals with a variety of mbuna species, and even the least aggressive, such as yellow labs, can work just as well. generally the idea would be 2 species, 1 male and 3-5 females of each, but avoid the super hyper-aggressive species in a 55 gal.


----------



## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

jamesman_1994 said:


> well the jewls are too agressive towards the FM's and they have laid their eggs in the middle of the tank
> i would much rather just have the FM's and the other stocking (umm also only one of the FM's is coloured up and seams to be trying to get the female to spawn so it hasn't happened yet)
> i would like to get more tank mates befor they spawn and take up the whole tank....


Well, a pair of breeding jewels may very well be too much for your FM to handle, especially at this young age. And since you prefer the FM, get rid of the jewels.

If it were my tank, and I got a pair of FM, since I have never bred the fish before, I would add some swordtails and/or zebra danios and keep the tank just like that for a while. These small kinds of dithers have pretty good chance of making it with FM, IMO. Then after you bred the fish a few times, consider some new cichlid tankmates. Of course the pair would have to be temporarily removed (29 gal.?) for some time, in order to facilitate introduction. And maybe you would end up having to get rid of one FM in order to make the community work.


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

i have a 2 foot tank (standard)
not sure how many gallons that has 
but i could put them in there.
at my LFS there is a medium sized blue acara about 5" but i think it might be too big.....


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

my Jewls eggs have been eaten. and i am not sure what my fire mouths are doing. one keeps flairing its kills and swims weird on a sidward angle but doesnt move forward or backwards but like shakes its body (that one has really good colours) the other one is not nearly as colourful. they ae not agressive towards eachother and swim together 8-% of the time. is this a sign that they will spawn?


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

i am going to plant some picks up of the FM's, i think one of mine is looking prety nice!
also cant wate to get a salvini!!


----------



## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

jamesman_1994 said:


> my Jewls eggs have been eaten. and i am not sure what my fire mouths are doing. one keeps flairing its kills and swims weird on a sidward angle but doesnt move forward or backwards but like shakes its body (that one has really good colours) the other one is not nearly as colourful. they ae not agressive towards eachother and swim together 8-% of the time. is this a sign that they will spawn?


Yes, it sounds like breeding behavoir amongst your FM. Of course to breed, your FM need to own territory, and if they can't defend from the jewels, they won't do it. That was the case with FM pairs I had in the past ---- they simply didn't have the power, not even close. Though I would think at this young age and size, your FM shouldn't have too much problem claiming space with the jewels in the tank.

AS far as your jewels, it's not uncommon for pairs to have a number of tries before they get it right. Or were the eggs layed earlier on and their now defending wigglers that are in the gravel ( and therefore not visible)?


----------



## mastertks (May 27, 2010)

i have one its nice


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

the eggs are gon and no wrigglers the parents are swimming all over the tank.


----------



## wpk22 (Jan 17, 2010)

I think you should go with the FM pair because you will see the best behavior. I think you could maybe keep a salvini in with the FM pair. It will depend on how you scape your aquarium. You need to give the pair some type of cave that they can defend and have their own territory. I would try and section off like maybe a little under 2 feet of the tank that could be claimed by the FM. Add a cave and some plants that break the line of sight and section off the territory. Good luck with the FM you will be happy!


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

i am aiming for a community tank. if you have read the other postes you will know that the stocking list i want is 
FM pair (help them defend them selves from the other cichlids, they dont need to breed)
1 salvini
1 blue acara 
1 convict (or another cichlid)
i am goign for a community tank because i get bored with just one fish and i only have a 55g (my brother has a 2 foot that i use for indured fish or fry)
there is also a possibility that i will move back to america and dad said he will get me a 6' tank


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

injured*


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

returned the jewls today and replaced them with 1 female con and 1 red fin acara
the acara is slightly bigger than the other fish so that is uses more of the upper part of the tank (like bernie comeau said it would when it is matured more than 1 inch) 
i have also put in an order for the salvini. i really hope it comes soon!!


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

had a closer look at the breeding tubes of my FM's and they both seam to be male.... 
:? 
so i was wondering would it be possible to get a female and have the 3 FM's 
as well as 1 salvini, 1 acara and 1 convict (female)


----------



## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

jamesman_1994 said:


> had a closer look at the breeding tubes of my FM's and they both seam to be male....
> :?
> so i was wondering would it be possible to get a female and have the 3 FM's
> as well as 1 salvini, 1 acara and 1 convict (female)


Unless you have taken the fish right out of the water and observed the fish from the belly side (what's called venting ) -------- it's usually not too certain observing breeding tubes in the tank , unless you do it over the course of weeks or months. The problem is that a female's tube can look just like a male's at certain points in time. However, a female's tube will tend to change more over time and can go from not protruding at all to very large, thick and blunt. A male, on the other hand, tends to change less over time, and very seldom does it not protrude at least a little bit. I've actually never vented a fish though sometimes it's taken me a couple months to determine sex by observing them in the aquarium. If your FM stay together a good part of the time , very good chance that they actual are male and female.

Yes 3 FM is possible, though generally it's a better bet for a community tank to have 1 of each type. In general, CA tend to be most aggressive towards their own kind, then towrds other CA, especially of the same sex. They are very competitive fish. Good chance you'd end up having to remove one or two FM eventually. A lot of things that work for young fish don't end up working over the long run. Although sometimes it can work for many years before any change occurs. Like I have said before, there is little certainty with these fish ----all kinds of factors not to mention the individual temperments and personalities of the fishes,which can change over time . However, IMO, your much better off starting with a few more fish then the 2-3 cichlids that others suggest. Your rolling the dice; you want to start off with the odds in your favour and IMO, when dealing with aggressive species, 2-3 cichlids is very, very poor odds over the long run. I base this on 35 years of keeping CA community tanks ---- and virtually all my tank space from day one have been devoted to CA communities. Of course you don't want to go over board and stock way more fish then you need to make a community work but I think that because in general, less is better, some people fall into the fallacy of thinking that the least possible number would some how be your best bet with aggressive species. Sure, an oscar + 1 tankmate or even a severum + 1 tankmate can sometimes work, but those are not aggressive species in comparison to a lot of CA fish such as most sals or cons.


----------



## wpk22 (Jan 17, 2010)

bernie comeau said:


> jamesman_1994 said:
> 
> 
> > IMO, your much better off starting with a few more fish then the 2-3 cichlids that others suggest. Your rolling the dice; you want to start off with the odds in your favour and IMO, when dealing with aggressive species, 2-3 cichlids is very, very poor odds over the long run. I base this on 35 years of keeping CA community tanks ---- and virtually all my tank space from day one have been devoted to CA communities. Of course you don't want to go over board and stock way more fish then you need to make a community work but I think that because in general, less is better, some people fall into the fallacy of thinking that the least possible number would some how be your best bet with aggressive species. Sure, an oscar + 1 tankmate or even a severum + 1 tankmate can sometimes work, but those are not aggressive species in comparison to a lot of CA fish such as most sals or cons.


Yeah but dont you think having a total of 6 average sized cichlids (around 6 inches) is a little much for a 4 foot long tank? When they are adults he may have to remove some of these fish due to aggression. I agree that under stocking can lead to a tank disaster but I think he should trim down the cichlid stock list and maybe add some schooling fish instead.

I wouldnt try and get a breeding pair in a small 55 gall when you want to have three other species in the tank as well.

I think you should remove one of your FM and have this list: One acara, once convict, one salvini, and one FM, and maybe add a BN pleco or another catfish for clean up.


----------



## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

wpk22 said:


> bernie comeau said:
> 
> 
> > jamesman_1994 said:
> ...


Yes, it's been mentioned that MAYBE a fish or two might eventually have to be removed. Either an aggressor or a picked on fish. That's part of keeping these kinds of fishes. Certainly over the course of 5- 10 years a lot can happen, but if you stock only 2-3 CA, once the salvini takes over the tank, a pretty good chance, you may not even make it over the short term.

Small schooling fish seldom make it long term with salvini, or even with cons for that matter. Secondly, as target fish, they usually don't work well as they are not generally seen as competitors, and when a little attention is paid to them, they usually end up getting killed.

A female con is a small 4" fish; very , very uncommon to see them 5" or more. A male con can eventually become a very large 6 " fish. FM CAN get 5-7" though it takes a long time for them to get this size, and its really not that common to see them get that large. Female sals do typically get 6" or more eventually; I had a female get 7 1/2". Male sals can eventually get 8" and very deep bodied ----- had males that got to be a larger fish then all but the largest 10"+ JD males. As far as bio -load, definately less then your typical mbuna set up ----- some stock over 20 potentially 5-7" fish ----fishes that do get considerably larger then a female con or even most FM for that matter.

Something like this ( these are pics of the male when he was a young 7 -7 1/2" not the great big deep bodied 8" he became)doesn't co-exist with small schooling fish. Nor would it co-exist with just 1 male con for example, with out going on a seek and destroy mission, but it is lazy enough that it might co-exist with 3 or more tankmates:



















[/img]








[/url]


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

thanks for the pics!!!!!!!!!!
the reason i wanted the FM's to pair (not reed) is so they have a better chance of claiming some small space, as a pair their agression changes, but without them being a pair they are an extreamly peaceful fish 
and their are 3 BN plecos in there and 2 flyng foxes (there was 4 but one was eaten by an oscar that was previouswly in the tank and one died because it cut its back on a rock trying to get away from the oscar so it died from infection or something) i am thinking of moving one of the BN's to my brithers tank seeing as he always has elge problems


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

up date on the fish behaviour 
no trouble yet, both the FM's are following the acara around but dont hurting it, the acara is about 1/4 of an inch bigger than the than the FM's. the convict has claimed a small cave in the right front corner of the tank which i originaly made for the FM's. i think i need to make another cave at the other end of the tank. there is a small one but it isn't suficient to house a 4"fish. i will need to pick up some drift wood to make it. would it be good to get a large piece of driftwood in the middle of the tank. 
here is a pic of my current set up.








sorry for the poor quality it was taken with my phone


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

have finally got a peek of the breeding tube on the pale FM, i am still confused about its sex, it is wide but angles out and has a point at one end of it but is much wider than a male breeding tube normally is. the other FM has a much thinner breeding tube and is much darker, but today both FM's were brightly coloured.


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

so confused.......... the acara has grown a pair and is now contesting the FM's, also just had another look at the breeding tubes, the largest FM's is sticking out and he has full colour. the breeding tube is pointy, and so is the other FM's breeding tube. they were both contesting eachother, flaring at knocking eachother, it is great to watch but i think i will need to return one of the FM's if it continues. but!!!!!!!! this is why i am confused. they both share the same cave and swim together. :-? what is happening!!!!!!!!


----------



## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Your tank looks very nice :thumb: Certainly lots of caves and hiding places is a good idea in most cichlid tanks and a large peice of drift wood in the middle of the tank could look nice. But in general space is space, and space is ALWAYs limiting with cichlids in any size tank and in general the idea would be to have a large number of hiding places with out taking a way from upper area swimming space. CA cichlids generally won't make use of any upper or second layer caves, so keep hiding places low to the ground and some upper area free for swimming, especially once the fish are older and larger. One thing I do to make use of available space is to lean flat rocks in most, if not all the corners (making sure they are secure by placing heavy rock in front of it) as corners are not swimming space -----it is always the most preferred breeding spot of all my cichlids.

FM are difficult to sex ----- but if they stay together and share the same cave, better then good chance, IMO, that they are opposite sex. Like I mentioned before, usually you have to observe the breeding tubes over the course of months to be certain of sex, as a females tube can, at certain points in time, look just like a males. Breeding behavoir in CA cichlids can sometimes resemble aggression, not to mention the fact, there can be a lot of aggression at times, between males and females of the same speceis.


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

thanks! 
i am planning on getting a large piece of driftwood for the center. 
i am thinking about rearanging the tank. i want to make it look natural as possible. 
i am still waiting for the salvini. hopefully they get one in soon!! 
i will have a look at my LFS this weekend, and have a look at what driftwood they have. 
is it hard to change gravel?? because mine is too white and i dont like it......


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

went to my LFS today and still no salvini. i was also wondering if i could have 2 fm's 1 salvini and 1 JD?? because there is a wonderfull looking JD at my LFS and i really want to by it.


----------



## wpk22 (Jan 17, 2010)

jamesman_1994 said:


> went to my LFS today and still no salvini. i was also wondering if i could have 2 fm's 1 salvini and 1 JD?? because there is a wonderfull looking JD at my LFS and i really want to by it.


I had a thread about doing this in a 55 a couple of months ago and the consensus was no. I think the pair (fm) and the jd would work out though for sure

it is risky but it all depends on the fish

good luck

by the way your tank looks great!


----------



## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

wpk22 said:


> I think the pair (fm) and the jd would work out though for sure


 :lol: No, there is definately no FOR SURE about it. Of course just about anything is possible, but IMO, a pair plus only one cichlid is often a very unstable situation, long term. Your betting that both sides are going to remain even all the time, for the duration of their life ----- basically it's the same thing as keeping only 2 aggressive cichlids in a tank and expecting a draw between the two sides for the duration of their lifetime. But with one further potential problem: where is the female suposed to go when, and if, it is not getting along with the male. Don't expect the rival cichlid is going to accept the female on his/her side when it already owns half a tank all to itself, with out having to share it with any other cichlid.

Of course there is a wide range of temperments exhibited by any species, but I think JD in particular, tends to show a wide range between one individual to the next. The fish was named after a boxer who was a heavy weight champion in the 1920's; to give you some idea of how long the fish has been in captivity. The fish has been line bred for color, and pumped out by the thousands. There has beeen a market for this fish long before most CA became available. JD I had in the 1970's were very aggressive and capable fish compared to one's I have had more recently. A lot of 'watered down' genetics but of course some today are still very aggressive and capable fish. IMO, sort of difficult to say which JD you might happen to get.

Like I have already mentioned, FM pairs I have had, didn't pocess great ability to claim space. Against fish their own size, for example a rival pair of cons, they often threatened against. But unlike cons, they didn't pocess any great ability to claim space from much larger CA. They couldn't defend from JD I had in the past, though I think it likely they could have handled some JD that I have had more recently. Anyways, I wouldn't count on a pair of FM being able to claim space from a JD or a sal, once they get BIG.


----------



## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

jamesman_1994 said:


> went to my LFS today and still no salvini. i was also wondering if i could have 2 fm's 1 salvini and 1 JD?? because there is a wonderfull looking JD at my LFS and i really want to by it.


Personally I don't think it's a great idea. Of course there is always some chance of it working well but salvini and JD are good sized fish for a 55 gal. I think you would be better off getting one or the other. Wait to get a salvini and if your unable to wait, get the JD instead.

Salvini are bigger fish then some people think. The C-F profile lists them as getting 8" and I can assure you they certainly CAN get this long. Furthermore, male's can eventually get very deep bodied and heavy. Not as long as some JD, but just as big and heavy as JD ----sometimes bigger and heavier then JD.

I wish I had pics of my males when they were big, but I don't have any. The best I can do is this pic of a 3 year old male who I regareded as a slow grower in comparison to his dad and grandfather. Measured at 7 5/8". Pictures are a little out of focus but the 20 cm (=8") mark is clearly visible.










[/img]









Another picture of salvini with a 10"+ oscar for size comparison.Young male sal around 7", young female sal around 5".










From my perspective the 4 ft. length pretty much determines how many cichlids could be housed in the tank. But the 12-13" front to back depth is a limiting factor on what size of fish you can comfortably house in that space. Of course you COULD house some pretty big fish in a 55, but your much better off with smaller fishes. IMO a female con is a good choice and usually quite easy to determine it's female by the yellow dots on the belly. Sals are easy to sex by the black blotch that the female pocessess on the dorsal fin ----- unfortunately though, at a young age under LFS conditions sometimes it's difficult to see it or the blotch is not clearly exhibited. JD are easy to sex ----- females usually have large blue blotch on gill plate and males lack blue on the gill plate, though at the age they are usually being sold at an LFS, this method of sexing is not usually useable.

i still think your better starting off with 5-6 cichlids, though of course others will disagree.[/img]


----------



## wpk22 (Jan 17, 2010)

bernie comeau said:


> wpk22 said:
> 
> 
> > I think the pair (fm) and the jd would work out though for sure
> ...


 i agree i shoudlnt have said for sure but i think the odds of that working are in his favor. I guess why i said that is because my jd is very timid and not really aggressive.

I think jameson just thinks his tank is not filled out enough bc his fish are small. patience, they will grow and fill that tank out just fine!

If you want a jd you could maybe try a con and a fm with it and you would probably be at your max with that list.

bernie nice sal in that pic!


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

i think i will stay with getting the sal. preferably a female. and thaks for the compliments on the tank


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

last night i rearranged the tank so that there were more caves in the tank. this morning the acara is now incharge of the tank and is chasing the FM's around. how can i fix this or will it just mellow out after a while?


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

i was examining the fish behaviour today after school and it is like a game of rock paper sizors!! the FM's beat the convict (well one of the FM's does, he also fends off the acara, and wind 50% of the time) the convict beats the acara and the acara beats the FM's it is a big circle hahaha
one of the FM's has claimed a little cave and flares and chases off anything that tries to get in. 
great to watch!!


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

epic terf war! both the FM's share this cave area and dont attack eachother at all, this area is jest right of center of the tank. well the smaller FM just cave out of part of one of the caves and the acara ushed at it then they were both flaring and the smaller FM starts to get pushed back but isn't giving up. then the second FM comes in who is closer in size to the acara and back up the smaller FM and there bills are a brilliant red orange color! thankfully they dont do much damage to eachother just tattered fins on the ends. i am goign to leave a camera on my tank stand so when i see these things i will capture some pics.


----------



## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

It is obvious from your what you describe that your FM are a pair.

What is the latin name of this "red finned acara". If you don't know, post a picture of it so it can be identified.

Is your convict a male or female? Does it pocess yellow dots on it's belly?


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

the convict is a female, has the orange splodges on its stomach area
no clue what its latin name is, so i will poste some pics


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

pics!!!!!!! finally!! lol


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

i will try to get some of the other FM and convict and also have been trying to get one of the FM's flairing


----------



## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Nice fish. It is clear from your pictures that your fish is a blue acara. Most likely Andinoacara pulcher (formerly Aequidens pulcher). Good as well, if your blue acara is able to stand up to your FM already, at its young age and size.


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

the fins are not actually that color the color was brought out with the flash.
oh and thank you


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

today i came hom to see both the FM's brightly coloured and flaring at the other fish and eachother, they were lip locking and moving their bodies stgrangely with eachother, the smaller FM is clearly a boy and the larger one is starting to look more like a female because its breeding tube is getting thicker and less pointed


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

i am so facinated with how the tank is going. the female FM is always chalanging the female Convict, but the FM's swim away from the acara and the convict chases the acara. it is a strange circle but when the FM and the Con chalange eachother it is great to watch i will try to get a video of it and poste it


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

i want to get some dithers for my setup and was thinking about red eye teteras or would they be too small. my brother has some red eye baloon teteras in his tank with 11 neons and a femal blue ram. the red eyes are growing at a good pase and i thought that a normal red eye woul grow faster........ any feed back would be great. thanks

james


----------



## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

A few people on this forum have had success keeping Tetras with CA cichlids. But IMO, and IME, Tetras don't last very long ------- sometimes no more then a week or two, and seldom miore then a few months. Especially with something like salvini, which is enough of a predator, that small fishes, are very unlikely to make it long term. I think you would have better luck with either tiger barbs, danios or even swordtails. I've had tiger barbs last about 6 months with CA, which is the best I have ever done with small dither fish.

I would suggest 3 -spot gouramis (blue, gold, opaline) or paradise fish. Either a lone fish or a larger group of something like 1 male and 3-4 females to spread aggression. IMO and IME, they would have pretty good chance of making it long term in your tank. IME and IMO, other species of gourami usually are not tough enough to make it with CA cichlids.

If your unsure what to get, why not try 1 blue gourami, and a group of tiger barbs and a group of danios or tetras, and see for yourself what makes it in your tank. If it's too many fish, I'm sure once you get a salvini, it's bound to eliminate some for you , at least eventually :lol:


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

thanks. well i will probibly try a gourami or someyhing 
i probibly wont get another fish until i com back from america, we leave 23rd of june and get back 20th of july. i will probibly get some feeder fish only tiny ones and get the food block. hopefully no fish die


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

still waiting on my salvini order but, today i asked my parents if for christmas i could get a biger tank. and seeing as this is my longest going hobby, goign on 3=4 years now dad said that he would get a bigger tank. so i was thinking that i would get a 6'X2'X2' which to my calculations is 180g. was just wondering what would be good to put in htere??
also hopefully they let me keep the 55g as well and i will change it into a nice african show tank. never kept africans before.


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

just read a profile on the red eye teteras and they grow to about 3 inches, wouldn't that be big enough??


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

was wondering what is the best way to keep my fish alive over a month without me there?? because i am going to america for a month and dont want to come back with a tank full of dead fish. i have left my fish for 2 weeks befor but never any longer than that. any advice would be great.
james


----------



## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

jamesman_1994 said:


> was wondering what is the best way to keep my fish alive over a month without me there?? because i am going to america for a month and dont want to come back with a tank full of dead fish. i have left my fish for 2 weeks befor but never any longer than that. any advice would be great.
> james


1-2weeks , fish should be fine but a whole month, young fish left to themselves, you'd be taking a real chance that everytthing goes well.
The best way would be to have somebody come in and feed the fish once, maybe twice a week. A relative? Or if you have someone mowing the lawn or looking after the place, show them what to do. With out water change, best not to feed them too much or too often, but once or twice a week would be enough to ensure that your fish do O.K.


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

yeah my best friend lives down the road and he will probibly do that if he isn't going away. 
if he can't i will really fatten them up with high protiene diets with supliments of krill and blood worm up until wednesday next week when we leave and put one of those blocks in the tank that gives fish the protiene they neede or something like that.


----------



## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

my light switch on the cord to my tank isn't working so i am goign to need to remove the switch and jsut join the wires.

but i still manage to see the tank. and one of the FM's wont move from this piece of drift wood and it is far too hard to see what's in there because it is on a angle that i cant see it from anywhere around my tank. so i was wondering is this breeding behaviour. is she/he guarding eggs? also the other FM that i think is a male is chalaning the blue acara more, not succeeding in his chalange but still chalanging. but the blue acara is able to get close to where the other FM is camping out and they dont charge at the acara but dont let him/her past.


----------

