# Suddenly getting overrun by N. brichardi fry, any advice?



## joesyr (Sep 20, 2012)

So I've had a species tank going for a little over two years now that started with a few juvenile Neolamprologus brichardi and has been a great run. Well, it's still a great setup to have and I'd like to keep it as close to the way it is now, but I'm not sure that's sustainable any more. For a long time, it was the norm that the fish would breed prolifically (they crank out a new batch of 2-3 dozen wigglers every month or so), but most of the fry would get eaten by their aunts/uncles. A few would survive every so often, so the schedule I was looking at seemed to be an annual trip to see what shops in the region would be interested in picking up a dozen or so, and that would be good to clear my waters.

But, after the original tank sprang a leak and I had to rehome them(went from a ~50gallon tank to a 45 gallon I got on craigslist), the social stability sort of fell apart and there was some fighting/deaths for the first time, and in the wake of this, the parents seem to be a lot better at keeping interlopers out of their little nursery cove. Instead of an average of +1 fish/month, I'm now apparently looking at pretty much a 100% survival rate. As of right now, there's a batch that's about a month old and a batch that just hatched this week. The older batch is just starting to leave the nest and the "other team" in the tank doesn't seem to be interested in gobbling them up. So I've got a bit of a dilemma, seems like this could go a number of ways.

First off, I guess that if the problem is that my little ecosystem suddenly lacks predatory threats, I could just become the resident predator and cull the heard. Sort of squeamish about that though, somehow it seems more "natural" to let the little fry get eaten up. It seems weird to take the stance of "they're just fish" after getting so attached to all the individuals, but I guess from the fry's perspective it doesn't matter too much whether a bigger version of yourself suddenly swallows you, or if a net comes and scoops you up only to dump you in a freezer (is that the "humane" thing to do?).

Another option would be to ditch the idea of a species tank. Find a shop that will take most of the brichardi, and get a community going where there's natural predation among different species. I got one recommendation to try a calvus as a fry-eater. Any tips on what might work for stocking a 45 gallon? Upsizing to something like a 55 gallon might not be out of the question but this is starting to sound like another major project that's a bit daunting with my current budget and time resources. Similarly I guess if I really want to keep the brichardi species tank I could start a second tank with something that would appreciate me dumping in the extras as feeders, but I think that's sort of outside of my scope for what I want to maintain.

A third option would be to find a place that will take most of the fish, in that I'd just keep a few juveniles and it would be like hitting a reset button back to what I started, and see where that would go. Eventually they'd probably start pairing off again and I'd need to see if the fry get gobbled up in the night or if I need to hit reset again.

Any thoughts? Would love to hear any anecdotes of similar circumstances. I feel like I've read a lot of accounts along the lines of "I used to keep a Brichardi tank..." but I've never gotten a clear picture of what the "endgame" is for fish that breed so much. Was I just lucky the first time that things worked themselves out to control the population? Is it sort of a necessity that if you're going to mix males/females of the same species and you don't want to start a business out of it, then you make sure you have a predator in the tank? Or is the responsible thing to do just to get used to culling if I want to keep a species tank?


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## joesyr (Sep 20, 2012)

Also here are some obligatory tank shots, one of the "happy family" cove and one of the whole tank. I think the dominant fish on the right side that I've nicknamed the "king of the castle" may have recently courted a mate from one of the oldest progeny so that's been interesting to watch unfold. I also built the "wall" in the middle to try to break up the fighting when that started so I'm thinking maybe if I remove it and go back to a more open linear space, the fry will end up back on the menu and things might calm down (but then am I just delaying the issue until the next major upset?).


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

I had a similar over population problem with Neolamprologus pulcher 'daffodil' after about a year. I was able to share fry with members of my local fish clubs but ended up selling off the rest of the group. These fish are very prolific!

Your choices are exactly what you surmised, rehome them all, rehome most and start with a few of the remaining fish or add a predator. If you are still happy with keeping this species, I would choose the 2nd option.

What are the dimensions of the 45G tank? This will help to choose a predator to keep the fry in check but probably only after most of the sub-adults have been re-homed. You will probably also have to rearrange the tank to establish new territories.


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## joesyr (Sep 20, 2012)

Deeda said:


> I had a similar over population problem with Neolamprologus pulcher 'daffodil' after about a year. I was able to share fry with members of my local fish clubs but ended up selling off the rest of the group. These fish are very prolific!
> 
> Your choices are exactly what you surmised, rehome them all, rehome most and start with a few of the remaining fish or add a predator. If you are still happy with keeping this species, I would choose the 2nd option.
> 
> What are the dimensions of the 45G tank? This will help to choose a predator to keep the fry in check but probably only after most of the sub-adults have been re-homed. You will probably also have to rearrange the tank to establish new territories.


The current tank is 1'x2'x3'. I think ultimately I might like to get a tank that's a little longer and shorter, but a lot of that is informed by these fish's behaviors. Was it your experience with the daffodils that they were pretty stubborn about being bottom swimmers? Sometimes I think that maybe my use of bubblers to keep the currents going in the tank to prevent debris buildup may be a bit overzealous in terms of keeping the fish timid. I made a lot of attempts to make the upper waters seem more "safe" but these fish never seem to go to the top unless they're being chased/chasing. Occasionally I'll find one camping out in the vines I've strung up if they're temporarily having a quarrel with a roommate but those only ever last a few days.


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## joescaper1 (Feb 14, 2013)

Put an ad in the local aquarium clubs classifieds for a proven breeding pair, then continue your colony with the progeny. Father/daughter, mother/son, brother/sister, is the way it happens in nature.


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## joesyr (Sep 20, 2012)

joescaper1 said:


> Put an ad in the local aquarium clubs classifieds for a proven breeding pair, then continue your colony with the progeny. Father/daughter, mother/son, brother/sister, is the way it happens in nature.


Seems sort of unsustainable in the big picture, though, no? How long until the classifieds are overrun with the same ads and my fish are competing with their own distant cousins for a new home? Seems sort of abstract in a silly way to put it like that but I guess what I'm saying is that I'd like to make the jump to being sustainable at my own level first.


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## joescaper1 (Feb 14, 2013)

Sorry, I didn't realize you were trying to make your fortune selling N. brichardi fry.

I have been keeping N. brichardi (nee L. brichardi, nee L. savoryi elongatus) for forty years (simply because they are my first love). There is no "end game" to keeping them, you keep them because you enjoy them. My excess fry are donated to the local aquarium club for end of meeting auctions (they usually bring a dollar for a bag of six). Breeders are sold on the classifieds because newer members are looking for breeders to get Breeder Award Program points. Selling the breeders allows me to start over and renew the fascination.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

The tank I had mine in was a standard 125G and they were housed with Altolamprologus calvus, Lepidolamprologus hecqui and Synodontis petricola or luccipinnis and stayed mostly in the lower 2/3 of the tank. I think it is just the nature of the fish to be closer to the rockwork and shelters to hide in.

I also understand what joescaper1 is saying above and that has been my experience with trying to unload these fish and others once the local club members have had there fill of the fish. Sometimes you just can't even give the darn things away!!!


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## joesyr (Sep 20, 2012)

I don't really have any intention of selling the fish at all, but I'd happily give them to anyone enthusiastic about keeping them. I'm operating under the assumption that before I should think about supplying them to other people, I should get my own setup under control, so I'm not really sure what I've said to earn the sarcasm here. By end game I mean that I'd like my own tank to be in at least a somewhat sustainable way (again), not an end to keeping the fish or an ultimate goal of some sort. I love having them and would like to keep them for many more years to come, but I want to do it responsibly and I'm still learning the ropes.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

I don't think his comment was meant to sound sarcastic, sometimes it's difficult to convey meanings on forums.

Prolific fish are difficult to keep sustainable in your home tank unless you take steps to deal with the fry. In my experience, sharing with others and selling at local clubs/auctions are the only way I get rid of excess fish. I've thought about selling online or through local classified ads but I'm lazy and don't want to deal with potential jerks that may respond to ads, have strangers come to my home or go through the learning process of shipping fish.

If you just want to keep your fish and continue spawning but still have some control, adding a predator such as a A. calvus or compressicep or even some catfish that will naturally prey on fry might help. Sometimes even this method doesn't keep the population under control.

I am unsure if getting rid of all the females and keeping an all male tank will work.

Get rid of your adult breeders and most juveniles and keep 6 or 8 juvies. This will be starting from scratch. If you can't sell or give away what you don't need or want to start over with, euthanizing them is a harsh reality. Most people abhor this idea, especially when there isn't anything wrong with the fish.


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## joesyr (Sep 20, 2012)

Sorry I didn't mean to get defensive, of course I appreciate all of the advice. The stuff about local breeding clubs is interesting and completely new to me, all I've really known in the hobby has been what I've had at home and what's in the few local shops. Recently I've started to go to a few more specialty shops that are a bit more of a drive, since most of what's local to me is the big chains where it can be hard to find someone who's really dedicated and knowledgeable.

Seriously though short of responding inline this has all been good info so far and I'm on my way out to a local shop that I've traded a few questions with before going in, since ultimately what I end up doing is going to be partially dependent on what I can line up over the next few weeks on my budget. Would love to hear any more nuggets of wisdom/stories/opinions in the meantime.


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## S4surf (Oct 18, 2006)

Nice setup for them..

I used to keep these for years and enjoyed watching the colony thrive.

What you have noticed before the tank issue was the original pairing of sub-adults.
IE: you buy six and two pair off, the others will predate any fry in most cases

If you did not have the tank issue I bet the pair would have killed them off eventually, 
or another pair would form if tank space is available. the first ones pushed to the upper corner of a tank will usually be the males.

When you feel there are too many, either give/trade them away to other hobbyist's or LFS's for credit
unless you pull one of the parents they will be back to normal once you catch what you want. don't disturb the nesting site if possible

IMO I would not try to add a predator into a thriving colony in a tank this size 
other than catfish, most others will find it hard to survive. ymmv

I ended up putting my pair into a 240 gal and many other fish.
they thrived for years and eventually created three colonies in the tank.

Steve


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

No problem. Check out the Clubs tab at the top of the page under the banner and do a search for local fish clubs in the New York area that may be close to you. Some clubs also have websites and many are now showing up on Facebook. It is usually a nominal membership fee to join and the benefits for sharing your fish and acquiring new ones can't be beat.

Keep us updated on what you decide to do.


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## joesyr (Sep 20, 2012)

Thanks for the insight Steve. I've seen a lot of interesting behaviors in this tank over time that correlate with what you're saying and it's nice to hear another angle on it all. The chasing/intimidating behavior in the mini-colony has been an interesting drama to watch play out, for sure. After sleeping on it a few times over I think I am really leaning away from the predator option, just seems hard to imagine anything doing well in here. Sort of a delicate balance to try to scale down an ecosystem of so much open water into a tiny tank, it seems.

On a general note there's another option lurking in the background of the whole thing that I've been slow to confront which is that depending on how some major life choices play out over the next few months it may be necessary to retire the tank altogether. I'll definitely keep you all updated on where this goes but it may simply be "cleaned house and put the hobby on hiatus for a few years".


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