# Green terrors (Rivulatus)



## mstama

Hey everyone, i am new to this site. I have a breeding pair of rivulatus, the female is currently 'gravid'? And i think she is about to lay. Anyway i have a question

How long after they mate until they lay?

Oh and i am trying to figure out how to post up pictures, help would be great  :fish:

p.s they arent very big yet.. any pictures of yours would be cool . :thumb:


----------



## Moody Fish

Hi, your rivulatus will lay eggs and the male will then fertilise the eggs and then around 4 day's later you will have wrigglers that will feed off of their yolk sak. I have kept Gold Saums for a while now, and currently have an unrelated group of six, that I am trying to pair off. As for posting pictures, get a photobucket account, upload your pics and then paste the


----------



## Ronny_M

Hi, 
here are some pics and a vid of my Rivulatus, not quite green terrors though.
They're silver saums (white edged)

I got these guys last Tuesday and by Friday they had bred. Now there are well over 100 free swimming fry.





































Cheers
Ronny


----------



## Blademan

Nice looking male. How big is he?


----------



## dwarfpike

That's a beauty of an_ Andinoacara sp._ 'silversaum' *Ronny_M*!!! :thumb:


----------



## Ronny_M

Wow, thanks dwarfpike  
Learn something new everyday.

I've been under the impression that it's a varient of Aquidens Rivulatus.

The male is only about 8cm and the female is around 5-6cm.

They've been doing a great job looking after the fry.

Of the hundred+ that were laid, only about 4 were infertile and all the fry still appear to be there.


----------



## PaulineMi

I'm normally not a fan of nuchal humps but you have some beautiful fish!!


----------



## dwarfpike

No worries. The genus for the blue acara group was finally described only last december, so _Andinoacara_ hasn't really caught on yet.

While I was trying to avoid another huge debate about this group of fish (the green terrors), the _A. rivulatus, A. stalsbergi_ (proposed name for sp. 'silbersaum'), and the gold/silver/red saum do seem to differant species. The question is now if the gold/silver/red saums are differant species, or region variants of the same species (though seperate from _A. rivulatus_ and _A. stalsbergi_). I know a few Europeans believe _A. rivulatus_ and the gold/silver/red saums to be the same fish, most concur with them being differant fish. _A. rivulatus_ and _A. stalsbergi_ look much closer/related than the remaining saums do to _A. rivulatus_.

Hope that wasn't confusing!!!


----------



## Chromedome52

There's a lot of debate over exactly which fish is the true _rivulatus_. The fish Ronnie M has is the one that Alf Stalsberg considers to be the real thing, which Americans call Silversaum. However, there is some belief that this fish and the Goldsaum are actually the same species, just different populations. Silver edged individuals have come out of spawns of Goldsaum from Ecuador. Goldsaum is also found in northern Peru, but those populations are reported to always be red/gold edged. The Goldsaum was identified as _Andinoacara rivulatus _by Kullander in 2003, though Stalsberg considers them an undescribed species.

The original Green Terror came from further south in Peru, and was originally mistaken for _rivulatus_ because it was said to have come from the north, near Ecuador. However, unlike the two "Saum" species, which have shiny scales with black spots, it has different scales in a netlike pattern of black with shiny centers. It is known in Europe as the "Silbersaum", which some have confused with the fish Americans call "Silversaum". Both names have the same meaning, but are different fish. The original Peruvian Green Terror was just described, and is now _Andinoacara stalsbergi_, after Alf Stalsberg who collected specimens of all three forms from their natural habitats, helping to define their ranges.

I just noticed that Dwarfpike and I were writing at the same time! :lol: We differ slightly in that the describers of _A. stalsbergi _consider the Goldsaum to be _rivulatus_, but no one has compared the type specimens of that species with any of these fish. They did not mention, and apparently were not aware of, the silver edged Ecuadorian populations.


----------



## dwarfpike

*Chromedome52* - It also depends on whom you ask!! I know Alf believes the orignal Green Terror from the early seventies was his 'silbersaum' (aka the new _A. Stalsbergi_) but other old timers disagree, and say that the _A. rivulatus_ Jeff Rapps has been getting in is the same fish they kept at that time and that Alf's was another, undescribed species. I wasn't around back then so I can't say for certain. I rather let those with the experience and/or the PhD's work it out. :lol:

Though, I have always been able to tell the differance between a silversaum and silbersaum, Alf's silbersaum has the same reverse scale pattern on their flanks that _A. rivulatus_ has ... rather than the common pattern on the goldsaum that the silversaum shares. (note: using the old common name descriptions here for clarity).

I agree a lot of people in the states thought the silbersaum was just the german spelling of silversaum ... but they are completely differant after looking at Alf's website.

But then I didn't want to derail the OP's post by having yet another 'true green terror' debate. 

Note: Ronny's appear to be the silversaum, not Alf's silbersaum.


----------



## Chromedome52

Problem is that the old pictures labeled "rivulatus" are fish from central Peru, and are _stalsbergi_. Wayne Leibel reported that the original importation of "Green Terror" came from central Peru, but was erroneously reported as the northern region that Goldsaum inhabits. The type location for _rivulatus _is in Ecuador; the range only goes into Peru if you consider Goldsaum to be that species. The describers of _stalsbergi _give the red edged fish as being _rivulatus_, based on two references.

And Jeff Rapps has had many mis-identified fish before, and likely will again. His pictures labeled rivulatus are stalsbergi from Peru. One of the pictures even says Peru. Location, location, location! :lol: :roll:


----------



## dwarfpike

Indeed. Quite the mess. I need to read the full paper on the new _A. stalsbergi_. I have the _Andinoacara_ paper, but it didn't go into all of the undescribed species ... only 2 of them (and one of those was a blue acara species).

It was funny, but Wayne was one I was refering to when I mentioned some of the old timers. :lol: I have noticed that Rapps has had rivulatus from Ecuador and Peru before (Ecuador was several years ago, and come to think about it that was when I read both Wayne's article and Paul Loiselle's article about the 'true green terror') but the recent ones have been Peru.

Any importer is only as good with identification as the collector is it seems ... :lol:

So it would seem that _A. stalsbergi_ is the southern most of the complex, then the unidentified silversaum, then the gold saum, and finally _A. rivulatus_ to the north? With the red saum inbetween gold and _A. rivulatus_???

So confusing. I knew there would be headaches with this silly blue acara genus *grumbles*


----------



## Chromedome52

Almost right: _stalsbergi _is the southern most species, then Gold Saum in Peru and Ecuador, then silversaum - which Stalsberg considers to be the real _rivulatus _- in Ecuador only. There are no reticulate pattern Terrors from Ecuador according to Stalsberg, who did many collections and did not find any. Reports to the contrary are erroneous.

Wayne corrected himself some time ago in his TFH column; I would not hold my breath waiting for PVL to do so. This debate was covered quite thoroughly over at CRC forums some months ago.


----------



## dwarfpike

*Chromedome52* - Do you know which TFH issue it is? I must have missed that one, else I would have snapped it up.

So if the gold/silver/red suam end up being the same fish as most people think they will, they will be A. rivulatus leaving us just the two species of Green Terrors (unless you count those dwarf GT's from the early 90's that haven't been seen since, and no they weren't those silly short bodied ones you see nowadays).

*mstama* - sorry about the various scientific stuff in your breeding thread, green terror questions always seem to fall into this.


----------



## DeadFishFloating

Great looking silver saum (A. Stalsbergi) *Ronny_M*.

For all our yank friends (and southerners), 8 cm is a tad over 3 inches. I'm amazed that such a small sized suam has such a large nuachal hump.


----------



## mdog

Is that correct, 8cm? It really has the shape and proportions of a fish much larger than 3". I'd guess at least double that.


----------



## Chromedome52

I also apologize for the thread hijack, but mstama called his fish _rivulatus_, which tends to set off these things, especially if there is no photo! :lol:

Okay, I was wrong about a couple of things, as a result of my poor memory. Due to this discussion, I went back to the discussion on CRC, and then to Alf Stalsberg's site: http://www.lem.net/alf/aeq.htm. While he has not yet updated with _Andinoacara _and still has _stalsbergi _listed as "Silbersaum", there is a detailed narrative explaining the errors of identification in the past, which he personally straightened out by going to Peru and Ecuador to collect fish. I would really love the opportunity to meet Mr. Stalsberg, as his efforts showed a dedication to clearing up this confusion, and a logical application of data that is evident if one reads it carefully. No skimming!!! :wink:

First, I was mistaken about Ronny_M's fish. It is a White Seam, an apparent recessive genetic variant of the Gold Saum. This is evident by the width of the border, which is the same as a Gold Saum. It also has the scale coloration of the Gold Saum, of course, which says that it cannot be _stalsbergi_. Until I went back and looked more carefully at stalsberg's photo he calls _rivulatus_, I did not realize that these actually are two diffent fish. In the discussion on CRC, one participant mentioned seeing 25% white seam individuals in a pond of feral Gold Saum fish in Hawaii. That number is what identifies it to me as a recessive gene, and Ronny_M's photos (the first I've seen of this form) suggest that it is not a hybrid, but a variant/population of Gold Saum. However, it is under no circumstances _Andinoacara stalsbergi_.

If you look at Stalsberg's site, you will find that the Ecuadoran fish from the Rio Esmerelda, which KULLANDER identified as _rivulatus_, has a narrow edge that resembles the recently described Peruvian fish; however, it has the scale color pattern of the Gold Saum, so it is obviously a different species from either Gold Saum (by the fin edges) or the Silbersaum/_stalsbergi_ (by the scale coloration and geographical distribution). A look at a topographical map also shows that it is geologically isolated from the others by a small range of mountains. Stalsberg mentions this in his narrative, and most seem to have overlooked that fact. I know I did the first time.

I read the recent description of _stalsbergi_, and the authors seemed to be unaware of the fish that Stalsberg says Kullander identified as the real _rivulatus_. In fact, they describe the Red edging of the Gold Saum as one of the characters of _rivulatus _that makes it possible to distinguish that species from _stalsbergi_. They also point to the different scale patterns, which fortunately is a more dependable means of distinguishing between _stalsbergi _and the other two.

My conclusions are as follows: the describers of _stalsbergi _did not adequately research the other forms in the group prior to assigning relationships. They misread references that placed _rivulatus _in Ecuador as meaning the Gold Saum species, and were even unaware that there are populations of that species that also have white fin edges, not to mention the existence of the Esmerelda fish as a distinct species. Despite all that, the description is still good, and the original "Green Terror" of the American hobby is this newly described species.

Hobbyists have been placing way too much importance on the color of the "seams", and ignoring the scale pattern, which is a far more important characteristic. Patterns are always more stable than colors, as evidenced by the fact that Gold Saum can throw recessive White Seams.

The fish that Stalsberg calls the real _rivulatus _based on identification done by Kullander PROBABLY HAS NOT ENTERED THE AMERICAN HOBBY, SFAIK. The two species currently available are Gold Saum and _stalsbergi_, aka Green Terror. The region at Esmerelda, Ecuador, has not been heavily collected by commercial or even private individuals, the only one I'm aware of being - Alf Stalsberg. Since he had the sense to send preserved specimens to Kullander for ID, I tend to trust his judgement.


----------



## gnomemagi

^^ Interesting.

Oddly enough, I was at Petsmart the other day and saw a white edged male - the above explains the genetics behind that. Very neato - I hadn't seen a white edged one before in Petsmart out of several batches of GTs (I always walk down the isle even if I'm not interested in a fish... never know when a special one comes along :lol: ).


----------



## mstama

dwarfpike said:


> *mstama* - sorry about the various scientific stuff in your breeding thread, green terror questions always seem to fall into this.


Haha it's okay :thumb: well here's an update. The eggs were white meaning they are infertile right? WELL i totally lost hope and this morning i looked into the tank and GUESS what, lots and LOTS of little brown things, not free swimming at the moment. i will try and get some pics but dont want to go too close at the moment incase she eats them. So i have some questions.

When will they start eating? what do i feed them?

Will the female/male look after them or should i separate them?

I might think of more questions later but thanks in advance!!


----------



## mstama

oh and i dont mean to be rude Chromedome52, but i am a she not a he


----------



## Chromedome52

My  , not yours! :lol:

The parents will probably take good care of them, primarily the female with the male mostly watching the territory. The apparently fungused eggs were the empty eggshells, which often develop fungus after the fry hatch; some fish eat them right away to avoid that, some don't bother.

I would crush up any high protein food into a powder when the fry start free swimming, or I would consider starting a brine shrimp hatcher (but then I always have the jars ready for brine shrimp hatching). If they are still with the parents, the adults will often chew up the food and spit out smaller bits for the fry to feed on.

I would worry about other fish in the tank being attacked by the brooding parents. However, if the tank is large enough for them to stay away, their presence actually might strengthen the bond of the adults. I'd remove the fry after about a week or two if I wanted to raise some. I always leave some with the parents, so that they can run out the brooding process; if you take all of them, it can trigger fights between the parents.


----------



## mstama

okay great thanks! It's just those two in the tank so shouldn't really cause any mess with other fish.


----------



## Ronny_M

*Mstama:* I have been feeding my fry very finely ground NLS, I use a mortar and pestle to grind it to a dust. I also feed them frozen baby brine shrimp.
My pair are in a 9x2x2 with fish three times their size and they have done extremely well keeping them at bay.

I plan on putting them in their own tank shortly, just waiting for it to finish cycling.

Good luck raising the fry :thumb: 
(sorry for starting a discussion on your thread, did not see that happening lol)

*Mdog:* I double checked the size again and it's actually closer to 10cm (just under 4 inches)

*Chromedome52:* After reading the dicussion going on about the identity of these fish, I found the breeders and double checked with them. I can confirm that the ones I have are a varient of _rivulatus_ as the parent of these fish are actually big green terrors, one normal and one white edged.

From what he said, he originally had a breeding pair of rivulatus. From that, a small number of white edged fry were produced. He has since grown the white edged ones and bred them with normal ones, as a result, the batches had higher numbers of white edged fry and he has since been breeding them this way.

Oh and thanks everyone for the compliments 
The nuchal hump is not always that big as it fluctuates with his mood, that shot was taken just after the eggs were laid so he was being super protective then and his hump was at it's biggest.


----------



## Chromedome52

I never argue with the "that's what I bought it as" argument. I think it's related to the "because I said so!" argument.

Edit: My initial answer was abnormally rude of me. I think I've been hanging around here too long, picking up bad habits. I'm going away for a while, maybe clean up the fishroom and breed some new stuff.


----------



## Ronny_M

:? I'm sorry if I've missed something? 
I didn't mean to offend you and I apologise if I did but I was just clarifying what species the fish I have are. Also, I don't recall arguing about the identity of the fish.

The reason I took the word of the LFS I bought them from is because I know he is a respectable dealer and knows his fish. I know there are a lot of fish being sold under incorrect labels, (I keep geos lol) But I trust the person I got these from


----------



## mstama

update: they are all gone (eaten?). had this happened to anyone else?


----------



## mstama

this is what they looked like before they were GONE :-? :-? :-?


----------



## DeadFishFloating

Hey *Ronny_M*,

As far as I know, Rivulatus does not exist in Australia. I have seen Gold suams sold as Rivulatus in so many LFS here it's not funny. PetCity is a large culprit for this, especially as some of the employees/managers there do know the difference. So of course people will sell thier fish as Rivulatus. As has been noted in the discussion in this thread, the suam species have reversed scale patterns compared to Rivulatus.

Rivulatus scales have a green center colouration with a grey edge to each scale. While suam scales have a grey center with a green trim.

Were these fish bought from a for sale add on QLDAF? If so, you'll even see I posted a remark in the add itself.

If you want a definative answer, email the photos of your fish to Alf Stalsberg and get his opinion. Unless he's off on a collecting trip or speaking engagement he'll normally respond within 48 hours.


----------



## dwarfpike

Actually, if I put together *Chromedome52*'s posts ... _Andinoacara stalsbergi_ has the reverse pattern (we thought was rivulatus) ... and the real rivulatus has never been exported at all, the only fish to leave south america were dead, preserved forms sent to Kullander.


----------



## mstama

so my fish are NOT rivulatus? what do i call them then
and by the way, mi fish are actually not eaten! had another look and they have been moved by the parents.


----------



## dwarfpike

If they look like Ronny_M's ... they would be _Andinoacara sp._ 'silversaum' ... if they have a gold or red trim, just change it to goldsaum or redsaum ...


----------



## Cichlid-Power

mstama said:


> Hey everyone, i am new to this site. I have a breeding pair of rivulatus, the female is currently 'gravid'? And i think she is about to lay. Anyway i have a question
> 
> How long after they mate until they lay?
> 
> Oh and i am trying to figure out how to post up pictures, help would be great  :fish:
> 
> p.s they arent very big yet.. any pictures of yours would be cool . :thumb:


*Hello everybody on this forum side. To start with the begining of the question. First of all Ronnys nice photos is of the fish we have been calling Goldseam. Today it's placed in the new Genus Andinoacara, and there will be a re-description of this fish next year. The name will probably be Andinoacara aequinoctalis, Regan 1905. The fish Andinocara stalsbergi has its distribution in the north around Piura and south in Pisco River.
The reason for Andinoacara aequinoctalis is found in northern Peru is the the rivers, Rio Zarumilla and Rio Tumbes start in Ecuador, crossing the Peru part(Tumbes) on its way to the Pasific ocean.
DNA test of these three species Andinoacara stalsbergi, A, aequinoctalis and A. rivulatus shows that they are three different fish.
So if I could have draw a map for you on this page I would have done it. But let me try to explain another time again.
There is a mountain ridge going from the Andes out to Esmeraldas. This mountain ridge is deviding, Andinoacara (Goldseam) aequinoctalis and Andinoacara rivulatus.
On this mountain rigde there is a city call Santo Domingo de Los Colorados, named after the local Indians living there. But that's another story. Rivers coming from this ridge going north end into Rio Esmeraldas, all these rivers have the Andinoacara rivulatus.
Rivers going south from the city end into Rio Daule and others, they form what we call the Guayas riversystem which is coming out in the Golf of Guayaquil. 
And of course you find the Andinoacara (Goldseam) aequinoctalis in rivers further south.
So I hope this would lighten you up a little, and since the fish Andinoacara stalsbergi was named after me, which I'm proud of, and I have been collecting these three fish several times.
So I would say I can see who is who.
And if you have more question, you are free to send me an e-mail.
In the same time I will wish you all a Merry X-mas and A Happy New Year.
And look at my pictures on my homepage http://home.c2i.net/ Cichlid-Power

Alf Stalsberg*


----------



## dwarfpike

Welcome Alf!!! Nice to see the Acara King on the boards!!!

Did the DNA test involve all three color forms (gold/silver/red) of the goldsaum out of curiousity? Most believe they are just regional variants of the same species.

By silver I don't mean your Andinoacara stalsbergi, but the white version of the goldseam that is pictured at the start of the thread.


----------



## DeadFishFloating

Hey *dwarfpike*,

I always thought silver saums were a seperate species to gold saums, but it appears that some people believe it is a colour morph of the same species, so to the red saum. I think this is why the CRC has never identified silver saums as a seperate undescribed species, and only ever had sp. gold saum as an undescribed.

I believe part of the confusion surrounds the European name of Silbersaum. How many people in the USA and AUS have interpreted Silbersaum as the continental European spelling for Silversaum. I have read in the past a couple of people say Silbersaums were a different fish than the USA Silver saum, but no explanation was offered for the difference between the two fish.

Since this thread originally started, I've been having discussions on our local forum about the saum species. A couple of members have gold saum pairs that are throwing a percentage of silver saums. No one can say if these fish had different saum parents or not though. I know atleast one person has a mated pair of Gold male and Silver female, but this is a new pairing only producing it's first spawn.


----------



## Cichlid-Power

dwarfpike said:


> Welcome Alf!!! Nice to see the Acara King on the boards!!!
> 
> Did the DNA test involve all three color forms (gold/silver/red) of the goldsaum out of curiousity? Most believe they are just regional variants of the same species.
> 
> By silver I don't mean your Andinoacara stalsbergi, but the white version of the goldseam that is pictured at the start of the thread.


*Hello Dwarfpike,

Yes the DNA test include all three species. There IS not more than three species as far as we know today. And I know you guys is confused since you are mixing the fish. First of all, the Goldsaum Andinoacara aequinoctalis, is found with different color on the seam at the caudal. These colors goes from white, white with a little yellow tint, darker yellow over to Orange/Red.
I have seen in different biotopes where I've been collecting the Andinocara (Goldsaum) aequinoctalis, different colors on the fish and pair with fry where the male had orange seam and female white seam. Don't hang yourself to much in the color, look at the fish.
In Europe we have (comes from the German) called the fish Goldsaum, no matter what the fish color is on the seam at the caudal fin. I think you should do the same, so there will not be any confusion.
Jeff Rapp has shown wrong fish from time to time, but a little exuse to him is that he has taken the Exporters name for good, and not check it out better. And he use the wrong name on the fish, and the confusion is complete. People not knowing these fish, keep using wrong name.
Hope this clear it up a little.
Alf Stalsberg* :fish:


----------



## dwarfpike

*DeadFishFloating* - Yes, a lot of people thought that 'silbersaum' and 'silversaum' were the same fish, just using the German/European spelling. I always maintained though that the 'silbersaum' was Alf's undescribed reverse patterned fish, and our 'silversaum' was just the goldsaum with the silver/white lining. And I believed rivulatus and 'silbersaum' were two differant species, which we now know is true. Unfortunately, I was off thinking the rivulatus was the original green terror brought in during the 70's, when it was in fact Alf's 'silbersaum'/stalsbergi. Ah well, can't be right all the time!! :lol:

*Alf* - The main reason we (US) used the three differant names for aequinoctalis is becuase there hadn't been a formal description yet or DNA testing that we knew of ... so we did not know if we were looking at differant species or just regional variants of the same species. Most suspected they were the same species, but given how Kullander and others are dividing up species into multiple species groups (convicts, festivums) ... it was better to assume they were differant to prevent hybrids in case they ended up being 3 differant species.

On a slightly seperate note, did you guys over in Europe get that dwarf green terror that was coming in to US back in the early 90's? I haven't seen them since, a couple of people here besides me remember them ... but most assume we mean those short bodied green terrors coming out of Asia. I am curious if it was just a population of aequinoctalis that stays smaller or if it might be a seperate species.


----------



## Cichlid-Power

dwarfpike said:


> *DeadFishFloating* - Yes, a lot of people thought that 'silbersaum' and 'silversaum' were the same fish, just using the German/European spelling. I always maintained though that the 'silbersaum' was Alf's undescribed reverse patterned fish, and our 'silversaum' was just the goldsaum with the silver/white lining. And I believed rivulatus and 'silbersaum' were two differant species, which we now know is true. Unfortunately, I was off thinking the rivulatus was the original green terror brought in during the 70's, when it was in fact Alf's 'silbersaum'/stalsbergi. Ah well, can't be right all the time!! :lol:
> 
> *Alf* - The main reason we (US) used the three differant names for aequinoctalis is becuase there hadn't been a formal description yet or DNA testing that we knew of ... so we did not know if we were looking at differant species or just regional variants of the same species. Most suspected they were the same species, but given how Kullander and others are dividing up species into multiple species groups (convicts, festivums) ... it was better to assume they were differant to prevent hybrids in case they ended up being 3 differant species.
> 
> On a slightly seperate note, did you guys over in Europe get that dwarf green terror that was coming in to US back in the early 90's? I haven't seen them since, a couple of people here besides me remember them ... but most assume we mean those short bodied green terrors coming out of Asia. I am curious if it was just a population of aequinoctalis that stays smaller or if it might be a seperate species.


dwarfpike and deadfishfloating!
I'll see if I can clear more up of your question. I start with your last question. We have as far as I know or I've not seen this dwarf green tetrror you're talking about.
And talking about the size, what I've seen in the nature then Andinoacara rivulatus is the smallest of these three species. Andinoacara stalsbergi become a litlle bigger, but the Andinoacara (Goldsaum) aequinoctalis is biggest. But of course fishes grow many times bigger in a tank than in the nature. They will be fed every day, have no predators so they get fat and older. You never see a fat fish in the nature.
"it was better to assume they were differant to prevent hybrids" there I'm very agree with you, this is what I'm saying to people about west african cichlid, different types of Pelvicachromis taeniatus, even if all are taeniatus, keep them seperate so you don't get a mix, and you don't know from which part on the west africa the fish is coming. 
Well I think I answer most of your question, but if you are still puzzle-headed then drop me a line again. All the best,
Alf Stalsberg :fish:


----------



## Ronny_M

Wow, what a thread!

Firstly, I can accept the fact that I was wrong, but I could only go off what I was told as I don't have much knowledge on the background of these fish so thanks for clearing that up Cichlid Power  
There's no better source of info than from someone who goes to the origin of the fish and collects them.

Again, sorry mstama for starting a snowball on your thread.

I'll start a new thread when I get back from holidays with more pics.


----------



## Cichlid-Power

Ronny_M said:


> Wow, what a thread!
> 
> Firstly, I can accept the fact that I was wrong, but I could only go off what I was told as I don't have much knowledge on the background of these fish so thanks for clearing that up Cichlid Power
> There's no better source of info than from someone who goes to the origin of the fish and collects them.
> 
> Again, sorry mstama for starting a snowball on your thread.
> 
> I'll start a new thread when I get back from holidays with more pics.


*Dear Ronny, that was what I told dwarfpike too, that you had been hanging to much in the color of the caudal fin, as I also said was that the Andinoacara (Goldsaum) aequinoctalis is found in the nature this way. Andinoacara stalsbergi and Andinocara rivulatus I have never seen in the aquarium or nature with other color than white on the caudal fin.
That's why we also shall be careful to go out categorical when we don't know for sure, and don't know anything of the background.
But I'm glad that we can be agree that there are three different fish that we can enjoy to keep.
And enjoy some beautiful fish, but I'm happy if I can help you guys with any question on these fish, but I can't promise you that I will be able to answer all your question, but I'll try.
To go and study the fish in the natural biotope is just to expand your hobby, not to be satisfied before you can get your question certified. And this gives you a great pleasure, to enjoy uyour hobby more. 
Alf Stalsberg :fish: *


----------



## rmcder

Alf, just so I'm clear on this, which is the fish that Rapps is importing? I know it doesn't seem to be the same as the saums we usually see here (USA).


----------



## Cichlid-Power

rmcder said:


> Alf, just so I'm clear on this, which is the fish that Rapps is importing? I know it doesn't seem to be the same as the saums we usually see here (USA).


_Hello rmcder, since you are very close to Jeff, it's after I went in to see what he had on his stocklist, I can tell you that this is the one we before called Green Terror. But to be correct the name is today Andinoacara stalsbergi and not an *Aequidens anymore*, and it's *not rivulatus real*
The real rivulatus is the one from Ecuador and in Esmeraldas riversystem, and the name is today; Andinoacara rivulatus, (GÃ»nther 1859). But, if Jeff still have the fish he is showing on his stocklist, then this is Andinoacara stalsbergi from Peru. He has had others before called rivulatus, Silverseam etc
Best wishes, :fish: 
Alf Stalsberg_


----------



## DeadFishFloating

G'day Alf,

Thankyou for sharing your knowledge, it's greatly appreciated. It's not often we get a true legend of the hobby contributing so much to a thread.

If you get a chance, I'd be interested on which species you believe the one shown on this CRC thread is.

juvenile true white saum, 3.25" TL


----------



## Cichlid-Power

DeadFishFloating said:


> G'day Alf,
> 
> Thankyou for sharing your knowledge, it's greatly appreciated. It's not often we get a true legend of the hobby contributing so much to a thread.
> 
> If you get a chance, I'd be interested on which species you believe the one shown on this CRC thread is.
> 
> juvenile true white saum, 3.25" TL


*DeadFishFloating, hello down under, it's rather late for you, is it not?? But I will answer you since you might be up late. I guess this is a fish you never will see, because of your import restriction.
The fish on the photo on Juan Miguels Cichlid Room (a good friend) is Andinoacara stalsbergi from Peru.
I do have a good friend in Victoria, his name is Daryl Hutchins and when I'm sending him photos of nice fish he start crying.....

Alf Stalsberg :fish: 
*


----------



## DeadFishFloating

Thanks Alf,

I thought it was an Andinoacara stalsbergi. pk333 is my name over at CRC.

We have spoken via emails before when I asked for your help to I.D. this acara,









You mentioned Daryl Hutchins to me then, and we also spoke about our import restrictions. You suggested that we should order different juvenile aequidens species from Germany, and lable them as Blue acara's (Andinoacara pulcher) as many andinoacara and aequidens all look the same as juveniles, and customs inspectors would not be able to tell the difference.

I work nights, so I am just winding down having got home from work.


----------



## Cichlid-Power

Hello again Dead Fish Floating, the fish you show on the picture, I would say it's Andinoacara coeruleopunctatus, but it's not easy to tell from one photo. Sometime you need to see several photos from different angels*

Alf Stalsberg*


----------

