# Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)



## ivana411 (Apr 10, 2009)

I have three different species of Synodontis in two different tanks with, what I believe is, HLLE. I've read a ridiculous number of articles/forums about causes and cures. I really only have one question although to prevent a bunch of questions I'll elaborate.

I read carbon can be a cause, so I took the carbon out, replaced it with Seachem Purigen, and added Replenish to put back in the minerals that the carbon took out. At one point in time I had slightly higher nitrates, but they're down to zero now and water changes are done regularly to maintain that. There are no electrical currents running through my tank. There are so many hiding places that I have a hard time believing that stress is causing it (although it's possible), however one of the catfish that has it is in a tank with only tetras, so I eliminated that as a cause. I bought medicine to treat for Hexamita, although the majority of websites now are saying that is usually not a cause, or at least medicine that treats that doesn't help, so I'm holding off on using that. I have melafix as well, I'm just hesitant about using it because I don't want to take the purigen out of the filter and I know I shouldn't put the catfish in a hospital tank (although that's what I really want to do).

Really the only other thing I read was that the food is low quality. I'm feeding them Hikari Shrimp Pellets every night because I was told it was a good quality food. I give my fish either frozen spirulina brine shrimp or some kind of other frozen veggie mix a few times a week so the catfish can usually pick at whatever sinks down as well. I try to avoid giving straight brine shrimp or blood worms though cuz I know that can cause my mbunas to bloat. So I'm at a loss. Is there anything I can give my catfish food wise that is good and high in vitamins that wont hurt my cichlids as well? Or does anyone have any other suggestions to help me beat this?


----------



## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

It's a tough disease to cure. And even if you stop it, sometimes it leaves scars.

Here are some suggestions.

1) In case it's a diet issue: Always feed at least 3-4 kinds of foods. Maybe also try a vitamin supplement added to the food.

2) In case it's water quality: Increase the frequency of your water changes & tank maintenance.

If you decide to medicate the fish....it usually works better if the medicine is ingested with the food.

Why no quarantine/ hospital tank? Your catfish should do just fine in a properly set up one.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

That's pretty strange that they all have it and aren't in the same tank...

I wonder if you bought them with it, and it's just now become visible to you?

High nitrates over an extended period of time can cause this.

No need to feed multiple foods...One good quality food is enough.

I would isolate them if you can, and treat with daily water changes and a medication with metronidazole in it. If it's not too far gone, this should help, but you'll have to be persistent.

Jungle makes a product called HITH Guard - it's pretty easy to use, in a powder form, and you can even sprinkle some on the food with a few drops of tank water to allow it to soak in better.


----------



## ivana411 (Apr 10, 2009)

Yeah, I found it very strange about having it in different tanks. In my bigger tank I did struggle with a nitrate problem for awhile, so it's very possible that that's what caused it in there. But in my smaller tank the water quality has been perfect.

I had read that moving them into a separate tank can add excess stress, but I'm going to take both of your advice and get them into my hospital tank and treat them with the medicine I bought.

Any suggestions on the high quality food I should feed them? I'm currently giving them hikari shrimp pellets.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Honestly, if they like the shrimp pellets, that should be just fine.

Hikari makes good stuff.


----------



## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

I disagree with the feeding only one type of food. Even with the best ones, there can be dietary deficiencies....especially if the package has been on the shelf for awhile. Besides, it gives the fish a little variety. In any event, it won't hurt anything.

I would also try Hikari Sinking Carnivore pellets, Omega One Veggie Rounds (break them up), New Life Spectrum, or pieces of cut up frozen krill or shrimp.

And yes, it may not have been anything that you did....just the stress of shipping.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

The only problem with feeding multiple foods is that once you start that, when you experience the type health issues that cichlids are prone to (i.e. bloat, gastrointestinal disorders...) the multiple food sources make it much harder to determine where the problems lie. :thumb:

If you're really on top of things and know the dietary needs of your fish inside and out, AND if you only house fish together with identical dietary needs, then you can get away with it.

To tell someone to feed multiple foods without knowing the full stock list of a tank would be irresponsible, for me to do.

For instance, with this very thread, I know the OP has catfish and tetras...That's all I know, but I'm willing to bet there are more in the tanks than that. :wink:

Those other fish may or may not need all that protein.

I'm _assuming_ that the poster is aware of the dietary needs of all of his/her fish, and that the shrimp pellets are okay for them, as well. I'm only assuming this because the OP didn't disclose anything else. :roll:

The truth of the matter is that just because you're offering shrimp or krill to the catfish doesn't mean they will be the only ones to eat it.


----------



## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

I completely disagree. It's safer if you feed a variety of foods.....even most vegetarian fish will not develop bloat or other dietary issues when fed a varied diet that contains an occasional higher protein meal (if fed in small portions).

Now, perhaps I should clarify "variety" a bit more. I'm not suggesting feeding carnivore pellets, bloodworms, tubifex worms, and brine shrimp as the primary diet for something like Tropheus. But even those foods aren't harmful for 99 percent of the fish species if fed as a supplement.

And Synodontus catfish are omnivorous, and will thrive on a varied diet. I currently have 3 Synodontus catfish of 3 different species. I have one that I've had since the late 1980's, and another one that I've had since the early 90's. I feed an extremely varied diet, and my fish thrive.

In my experience, bloat is usually caused by a combination of overfeeding the wrong type of foods on a consistent basis (or not pre-soaking high protein pellets), and usually high nitrates, or other stress related issues.


----------



## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

I'd also like to add that most current research points to dietary deficiency as a major factor with HLLE, so that's even more of a reason for the OP to vary the diet for his/her Synodontus catfish.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

oldcatfish said:


> I'd also like to add that most current research points to dietary deficiency as a major factor with HLLE, so that's even more of a reason for the OP to vary the diet for his/her Synodontus catfish.


You aren't going to convince me...I've seen too many problems arise from feeding multiple foods. :wink:

But, we are entitled to disagree!


----------



## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Yes, we can respectfully disagree.

That's why keeping aquarium fish is more of an art than a science. I personally know 2 different aquarists that rarely do water changes, and basically do everything else "wrong," but still seem to have few if any problems, and grow amazingly large and healthy fish. I've tried both of their methods---and in both cases, it was a disaster.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I've been keeping fish for almost 40 years, and I freely admit that I've tried just about everything you can imagine as far as food and water goes, along with a few potentially deadly stock lists. :wink:

What works for one won't always work for another...

When I kept tropicals that weren't prone to excessive stress and gastrointestinal problems, I adhered to your train of thought with a variety of quality foods.

When I started keeping cichlids, alot of my views on fish keeping changed...Some out of practicality, and some out of necessity...


----------



## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Just goes to show you how different things can be...I didn't start the varied diet until I started keeping cichlids and marine fish.

I haven't kept fish quite as long as you though....only about 35 years.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I mixed it up a bit when I kept marine fish, too!

Sorry for de-railing this thread to an extent, ivana411!

How are things going with the synos?


----------



## ivana411 (Apr 10, 2009)

Oh no problem guys, I know how it goes. And I agree with both of you.. I feed some of my fish multiple foods and some of them just one.

As for the synos... I'm having awful luck... I just can't knock it out.. I've tried everything I can think of... it's killing me


----------



## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

Often the disease leaves scars. Are the holes/pits getting larger, or just not healing up?


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Are they actual pits, or is the flesh splitting open in streaks or lines?


----------



## ivana411 (Apr 10, 2009)

My biggest catfish has big pits on his head and holes down his lateral line. All of the rest of them just have minor head issues, but they all have the lateral line deterioration. I don't see any streaks or lines thankfully. It's not getting any worse from what I notice, although the little ones are very small (about an inch and a half) so it's hard to tell on them... and my big one is already pretty severe, but the problem is I'm not seeing it get any better either.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

It may not get any better. It's very hard to resolve once it reaches a certain point.


----------



## ivana411 (Apr 10, 2009)

Will it continue to get worse though?


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

If you treat long enough, and keep them in pristine water conditions, it shouldn't worsen. You should be able to halt the progression, and maybe undo a bit of the damage.

It's usually reversible if you catch it early enough, but IMO it's a bit like a bad case of acne as far as the scarring goes.

I've rarely seen it in fish that young, so I'd keep a close eye on things, just in case we've misdiagnosed it. (It's usually damage done over longer periods of time...)


----------



## ivana411 (Apr 10, 2009)

Well thank you for all your help, I really appreciate it! I'll be sure to update if I see any big improvements.


----------

