# Losing one-two fish every 2-3 weeks...



## Swamplander (Feb 9, 2011)

I'm perplexed... I've got a 125g mixed tank that's been setup and cycled for 8 months. The last month or two I've been losing one or two fish every 2-3 weeks. The most recent additions to the tank were a mail-order stock of about 18 three months ago. They are of varying degrees of size (most are fairly mature 3"+) & species... none of it seems due to aggression (northing more than the ordinary cichlid chase here and there) as no one is singled out by other fish and there are no noticeable marks. I'm doing 20% water changes every 1-2 weeks and siphoning the substrate once a month. I've got UGJ's and make sure to clean (with hot water) the sponges on both powerheads every month.

When a fish isn't doing well for one or two days he starts swimming a little slow and not normal (instead of being vertical swimming, he's angled a bit at about a 20-45 degree angle). Then, all the sudden one day he's a floater. This has been fairly consistent. The color of none of the fish changes... they just get slow and ultimately don't make it.

I've done water tests but all my levels show well within the normal parameters. One thing that does concern me is that my nitriate, nitrate and amonia levels all show in the test kit being near zero consistently. The pH is about 8.1-8.3 & the temp is 79.5-81.5.

I'm at a loss for what could be going wrong. My water seems fine, the tank seems clean, the canisters are running (and I clean them with just water every other month, alternating months between the two). Really getting frustrated as I've lost about 10 fish now and I see another that's looking "sick".

Ideas?


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## CITADELGRAD87 (Mar 26, 2003)

What kind of test kit do you have? What is your stocking?

With 20% changes every 1 to 2 weeks, its tough to imagine zero nitrates.

Not sure what the problem is, but that seems really low given your schedule.


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## Swamplander (Feb 9, 2011)

It's the API kit that tests everything. This one: http://www.amazon.com/AP-TEST-KIT-FW-MASTER/dp/B001EUG8RO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1321391401&sr=8-1

I'm wondering if there's a chance the kit is bad?

As far as stock, it's mostly Haps... this isn't a complete list because I haven't updated it for what I've lost in the last month+, but you get a good picture:

5 - Yellow Lab
1 - Electric Blue
3 - Acei
1 - Melanochromis auratus juvenile
1 - Fossorochromis Rostratus
1 - Venustus (Giraffe Cichlid)
1 - OB Fullebourni
1 - OB Ahli Hybrid
3 - German Red
(1 or 2) - Blue Orchid
1 - Cobalt
1 - Demasoni
(1 or 2) - Eureka Red Jake
2 - Flame back
2 - Borleyi Red Fin
2 - Chiloelo Red Shoulder
1 - Super Red Empress Fire Hap
1 - Tangerine Tiger
3 - White Tail Acei
2 - Pleaco
1 - Haplochromis Obliquidens 
1 - OB Peacock Hybrid


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

It sounds like you may be getting mini cycles. What is your biomedia? I would use room temp water to clean the sponges and dechlorinate everything after using tap water. Don't use tap water on your biomedia, because the sponges serve as biomedia too, so part of your bacteria is on the sponges, so it's best to treat them the same as your other bio, or at least if your other biomedia is very reliable, just dechlor your sponges, but never rinse your main biomedia with tap water.

I also always use prime in the new water BEFORE adding it back to the tank, and remember to adjust temperature if needed, and how is the tap water pH?. Radical changes can cause shock. Maybe also you might use carbon, purigen or something to remove any other toxins.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Any other symptoms from the sick fish? Are they still eating and having normal bowel movements prior to and during their slow swimming stage?
Is the tank covered?
Agree that there should be a more notable presence of nitrates.


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## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

I counted 15 mbuna,with mixed genders?are the peacocks and haps mixed gender as well?
what species of fish are you losing?are your fish eating and pooping normal?


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

The test seems wrong to me also .. I would sort that out first.

Do you have another tank you can test on to see if the nitrate kit is working ? They do expire, and do sometimes, but rarely, tend to fail to read right when levels are off the scale.

If the kit IS working, I would be asking what you have in your filter that could possiblly be appearing to keep everything at zero. Maybe something is leeching that is causing your test kits to not work. I dunno, but you need to sort out why that is happening.

EDIT, had a thought:

After doing some research it dawned on me ... how do you use your Nitrate test kit ? If it has been used incorrectly it will eventually be useless, even if you thought you was using it correctly for some time.

You MUST shake bottle number 2 EVERYTIME you use it for 30 seconds.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Swamplander said:


> make sure to clean (with hot water) the sponges on both powerheads every month.


Could the hot water be killing your beneficial bacteria? You want to use tank temperature and tank water (not tap water).

Not shaking the nitrate bottle #2 for 30 seconds before mixing, and for 60 second after mixing is a common cause of getting a zero result.

That's a LOT of fish, I'd say you need at least 50% water changes weekly.


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## Swamplander (Feb 9, 2011)

So first of all I was never doing the water tests correctly. Just finished and here are accurate numbers:
Ph - 7.4-7.8 (low)
Amonia - 0.25ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - 0ppm

To answer a few other questions: I shouldn't have said I'm using hot water to clean, I'm using room temp tap water to clean everything. The biomedia I'm using is that which came with my canister Eheim canister filters. The fish are eating and pooping just fine. No one shows any symptoms of being sick other than what I've described. I live in Florida with very hard water... we have a water softener on the house, but I shut it off and run the water in the tub for a good 5 minutes to flush the lines before cleaning & refilling the tank on water changes.

I'm down to about 25 fish in a 125g tank... most are 2-3", some big guys at 4-5". I've seen numerous tanks with a LOT more and been told a few times I'm in good shape with how many are in the tank.

There's no consistency with what type of fish is dying... it's a complete mix. From a Acei to a Yellow Lab to a German Red or Red Shoulder.

What's strange is that I'd expect it to be a global problem if it was something with the water or filters. When a fish acts sick, it's only one fish at a time. A few days / week pass and everything is ok, then another starts acting "sick".

Something I gained from this thread is that I was rinsing the biomedia with tap water... what I'm a bit confused by is how else do you clean them... with water from the tank? There's a good bit of waste in the caninster when I cleaned it. Last time I cleaned both canisters at once... in the future I will only do one a month and alternate between them. I can clean the blue sponge & white hollow cylinders with tap water leaving the bio media alone. But... if I had killed/washed all the bacteria away, wouldn't I higher levels all around, esp amonia?

Thanks to everyone for some great responses.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

> So first of all I was never doing the water tests correctly. Just finished and here are accurate numbers:


You was not shaking that second bottle ? chances are it is not going to be acurate anymore then and you need to buy a new nitrate test kit. What happens is the chemicals seperate and if used like that the unsured chemical (thicker one) will out balance the thinner one and the test will not be accurate or indeed work at all.



> Amonia - 0.25ppm
> Nitrite - 0ppm
> Nitrate - 0ppm


Looks like a new cycle happening to me if those figures are acurate. I would use prime to make that ammonia safe. And look up about doing a cycle with fish safely (or as safely as possible).



> There's no consistency with what type of fish is dying... it's a complete mix. From a Acei to a Yellow Lab to a German Red or Red Shoulder.
> 
> What's strange is that I'd expect it to be a global problem if it was something with the water or filters. When a fish acts sick, it's only one fish at a time. A few days / week pass and everything is ok, then another starts acting "sick".


This is what an ammonia problems is all about.. all fish have different levels of tollerence even in the same species, they will all die if you do not get it under control. A good indication on yellows is little tiny black dots on them, they won't always get this but they might, its easy to see on them thou any fish with ammonia burns will get these black dots.



> Something I gained from this thread is that I was rinsing the biomedia with tap water... what I'm a bit confused by is how else do you clean them... with water from the tank?


To be honest you should not have to clean the actualy bio media at all. At worst i give it a little shake in a tube of water i drained from the tank. Clean the first spong as harshly as you wish as long as you have lot more of other bio media in there that is untouched. Do not put the bio media back in until the water in the filter is declorinated, or all that careful saving of bacteria is wasted.


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## Swamplander (Feb 9, 2011)

I'll head out and get a new test kit tomorrow... I wasn't shaking the nitrate bottle so I'm sure this kit is toast.

Looking through the forum for cycling a tank with fish now... any pointers would be appreciated. I originally used Dr Tim's One & Only to get going... looking to see if that would be a good quick fix, or not. Talks about fishless cycling so doesn't appear so.

When I put water back in the filter, I open the valves and let water come straight from the tank which is already dechlorinated.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Swamplander said:


> I'll head out and get a new test kit tomorrow... I wasn't shaking the nitrate bottle so I'm sure this kit is toast.


Yeah it would be i'd say.



Swamplander said:


> Looking through the forum for cycling a tank with fish now... any pointers would be appreciated. I originally used Dr Tim's One & Only to get going... looking to see if that would be a good quick fix, or not. Talks about fishless cycling so doesn't appear so.


I think .. now i say think because i have not read his topic .. but i think his stuff you add has good bacteria in it .. which cannot hurt at all to add with fish in it. Wait for someone else to comment on it thou, main thing is constant checking of ammonia and nitrite and doing a water change adding prime when you do to make sure your fish do not suffer from those dangerous chemicals. prime makes them safe, but the water change should be done also.



Swamplander said:


> When I put water back in the filter, I open the valves and let water come straight from the tank which is already dechlorinated.


So you do not add any tap water ? Well that is fine then, just DO NOT wash you biomedia in clorinated water is all. BUT one thing to note.. if you rinse the wool or sponge like i suggested in tap water, it really should be left sit for a while or declorinated to be sure its not containing clorine etc before adding to the tank.


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## Swamplander (Feb 9, 2011)

Nodalizer said:


> I think .. now i say think because i have not read his topic .. but i think his stuff you add has good bacteria in it .. which cannot hurt at all to add with fish in it. Wait for someone else to comment on it thou, main thing is constant checking of ammonia and nitrite and doing a water change adding prime when you do to make sure your fish do not suffer from those dangerous chemicals. prime makes them safe, but the water change should be done also.


What is "prime" ? This is term is not familiar to me in this context.

I also emailed Dr. Tim's and explained the situation... will post the response...


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Seachem Prime

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Prime.html

Its expensive, but very concentrated so doesn;t cost as much as it first appears. Also note when comparing this concentrate to your de-clorinator look at the doseage of your de-clorinator to break the clorimine bond if it does that all all, some do not.



> PrimeÃ‚Â® is the complete and concentrated conditioner for both fresh and salt water. PrimeÃ‚Â® removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. PrimeÃ‚Â® converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tankÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s biofilter. PrimeÃ‚Â® may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. PrimeÃ‚Â® detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them.


I think I am safe in saying I have never heard bad word about it. And I have been using it for years.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

DJRansome said:


> Swamplander said:
> 
> 
> > make sure to clean (with hot water) the sponges on both powerheads every month.
> ...


At least 50% weekly. I would do 50% twice a week with a load that high. I counted 39 fish total at one time or another in a 125g? I would say do larger water changes more frequently. Doing 20% every couple weeks is not enough with that many fish per gallon. I have 1 fish per 10 gallons in my tank and I still do 50-60% weekly changes.

Swamplander.....larger water changes more often should GREATLY help matters.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Tap water is chlorinated (if you have a public water supply) and chlorine kills your beneficial bacteria. The filter media is where you want them to grow.

So, you use tank water to clean filter media, if and when necessary.

Siphon tank water into a bucket during a water change. Slosh the filter media in the bucket. Reinstall.

Not shaking the bottle messes up the immediate test you are trying to do, but it does not make the reagent expire faster. Might still be OK. Try the double shaking...it tells you to do this in the instructions.

It may be possible you DO have zero nitrate, which means your tank is not cycled. If you start washing the filter media with tank water, the bacteria will grow and you will start to see nitrate (very toxic) and then finally nitrate when the tank is well along in the cycle.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

> Not shaking the bottle messes up the immediate test you are trying to do, but it does not make the reagent expire faster. Might still be OK. Try the double shaking...it tells you to do this in the instructions


.

It depends on how long you have been doing it the wrong way .. and they have been doing it the wrong way for a while. I asked API about this and really to be honest even not doing this once is stuffing up the acuracy of the test because you have more of the solid component then the more liquid one ... doing it over and over will result a fail test each time.

Just to say again, I did ask API about this and they told me this .. you stuff up 4 or 5 times the wrong way and its basically stuffed for any acuracy.


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## Swamplander (Feb 9, 2011)

I've ordered a new kit and talked to Dr Tim's. My plan is to use a new kit, as I've used the old kit the wrong way for months (many uses).

Once I have more reliable numbers I'll re-evaluate a plan. I suspect I need to cycle the tank as I'm sure I've killed all the bacteria in the canisters with two thorough cleans with chlorinated tap water.

To test, when people talk about adding pure ammonia, you're talking about adding the kind you get at a local hardware store and watching the numbers react.. correct?


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

> To test, when people talk about adding pure ammonia, you're talking about adding the kind you get at a local hardware store and watching the numbers react.. correct?


Your not planning on adding pure ammonia to the tank with the fish in it though are you ? Or was that Dr. Tims plan ?


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## Swamplander (Feb 9, 2011)

Nodalizer said:


> Your not planning on adding pure ammonia to the tank with the fish in it though are you ? Or was that Dr. Tims plan ?


Wasn't the plan... just a side comment.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Well long as its "pure" ammonia, doesn't matter where it comes from. If it says it has other ingredients, its not pure I mean to clarify.


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## gverde (Mar 3, 2010)

I agree with 13razorbackfan. You have a lot of fish in that 125 gal. I would do 50% water changes every week or at least 75% a week. I have a 220 gal with around 30 fish ranging from 3-10" and I do at least 75% a week. Sometimes I do 50% during the middle of the week including 75% at the end of the week. All the fish seem very healthy.


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## Swamplander (Feb 9, 2011)

Thanks for the water change feedback guys. My new test kit arrives tomorrow. I'm doing a 50% change tonight then I'll test it tomorrow and go from there.


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## Swamplander (Feb 9, 2011)

Following up on this thread... I've tested the water using a new kit and it appears the old kit wasn't toast. New numbers show Amonia = 0.25ppm, Nitrate & Nitrite = 0ppm. I have a bottle of Dr. Tim's One & Only and Prime... the fish are still in the tank & hve to stay there.

I'm thinking my plan is to do water changes and monitor the levels daily, but also adding Dr. Tim's One & Only to jump start it (in an email with them they said it can't hurt).

Feedback?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Where is your nitrate??? :-?

If you can't remove fish then I'd guess they will continue to die off until a balance is reached, and then the remaining fish will live happily ever after.

Hope things start to turn around for you soon. :thumb:


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

As long as you add prime each day with your water changes your fish should still be ok, thou a little upset i guess


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Nodalizer said:


> As long as you add prime each day with your water changes your fish should still be ok, thou a little upset i guess


Yep....keep doing the water changes until the ammonia is converted via nitrogen cycle.


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## Swamplander (Feb 9, 2011)

OK... got some results after a few days of working on it...

Day 0AM: pH=7.8 / Ammonia=0.25 / Nitrite=0 / Nitrate=0
Day 0PM: added bottle of Dr. Tim's One & Only Nutrifing Bacteria
Day +2: pH=7.8 / Ammonia=0.5 / Nitrite=0.25 / Nitrate=80
Day +3AM: pH=7.8 / Ammonia=0.5 / Nitrite=0.25 / Nitrate=80
Day +3PM: 50% water change, used Prime when refilling tank, cleaned one canister w/ tank water & replaced filter
Day +4: pH=7.8 / Ammonia=0.25 / Nitrite=0 / Nitrate=10
Day +6: pH=7.8 / Ammonia=0.25 / Nitrite=0 / Nitrate=40

Plan to do another water change in the next day or two... seems like things are working as to be expected. I still have one fish who hasn't been acting normal (slow, swimming at a 45-degree angle), but in the past others would have given up by now.

I'm thinking about mixing up a 5-10g batch of water to increase the pH closer to 8.0-8.2


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Swamplander said:


> OK... got some results after a few days of working on it...
> 
> Day 0AM: pH=7.8 / Ammonia=0.25 / Nitrite=0 / Nitrate=0
> Day 0PM: added bottle of Dr. Tim's One & Only Nutrifing Bacteria
> ...


I wouldn't mess with the pH if you don't have to especially right now after the stress the fish have gone through. I would continue to do water changes every couple days until your readings are near 0. Maybe 50% every two days?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

> I wouldn't mess with the pH.


Me either. My pH=7.8 and the fish are thrilled.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

DJRansome said:


> > I wouldn't mess with the pH.
> 
> 
> Me either. My pH=7.8 and the fish are thrilled.


Yep...stability is the key I have found.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

Something still doesn't make sense to me. If you have a nitrate reading of 80, and do a 50% w/c, how do your nitrates drop to 10? and why do they go back up to 40 in two days?


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Cause the Nitrite wasn't zero. So the 80 Nirate was incorrect.

I dare say the there is something wrong with the 40 nitrate day thou .. prob some nitrites there too that he missed.


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## Swamplander (Feb 9, 2011)

I thought that was expected... Amonia > Nitrite > Nitrate > W/C to bring the Nitrate down, but the cycle will get things to go back up?


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Na, he was commenting on the large jump in nitrates, but it was because the nitrites was there so any nitrate reading is inacurate.


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## Swamplander (Feb 9, 2011)

So... there's nothing wrong with the numbers... things look like they are "working" correctly, right?


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Yes, just don't test for nitrate until the nitrites are gone.

Its pointless, the reading will be wrong.


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