# First time discus



## cichlid6 (Feb 11, 2009)

What breed of discus should i get as a first time discus keeper? :thumb:


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## Fishfeind (Jan 16, 2007)

Turquoise or Pigeon Blood


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

For first time discus I suggest domesticated strains of GOOD QUALETY! Wilds are more demanding in most cases and wilds need to be treated for parasites. Some wilds like Greens and Heckel are much more demanding. So Domesticated discus is the easiest way to go. It doesn't matter witch strain and select the the color morph you like the best. Red turquase and Pigeon Blood are very common but not hardier as Alenquer or Blue Diamonds for example. Quality of the domesticated fish is more important as the color strain.

I suggest to do A LOT of reading before you buy discus. There are forums dedicated to discus like www.simplydiscus.com with lots of real experts and breeders that can offer you all the info you need.


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## M0oN (Dec 8, 2003)

Visit www.simplydiscus.com and READ READ READ!

All domestic strains are equal if found through a reputable breeder - try to find some one local to you, as it will be easier to acclimate them to your waters.

Before buying these fish it's important to understand that you're going to need a 90 gallon tank, minimum, and at least 6 fish.

Their care is unique, so as I said - read read read before buying.


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## DiscusQueen (Jul 16, 2007)

Hi.. The most important thing about keeping discus is your commitment to their care. While they are much hardier than they used to be, they require more care than your average ca/sa cichlid. So as the previous folks have said... read research read.. IMO the best discus site is simplydiscus.. It is dedicated to this wonderful fish and offers lots of expertise.. After you do your research, if you want to commit then go for it. :thumb: They are very rewarding fish to keep.. While I am currently giving in to my geo addiction, the discus bug is always lurking..LOL.. Once you've kept them, they become part of you and you know that eventually you will have them again...
The simplydiscus site will also give you info on breeders in your area from which to purchase your fish.. As a first timer I also suggest tank raised fish.. The strain is up to you..
As to tank size.. a lot depends on your plans.. Usually 10 gallons per fish and other than a mated pair, you should keep at least 5 or 6 minimum... They are social creatures and most comfortable in larger groups.. If you visualize a cd as one discus this will give you an idea as to their size at maturity... But again... please research and read first... most of the threads on discus health problems are written by those who failed to learn ahead of time the conditions our flat friends require.. They are wonderful fish to keep and I wish you lots of enjoyment in keeping them.. HTH Sue


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

DiscusQueen said:


> If you visualize a cd as one discus this will give you an idea as to their size at maturity...


Hmmmm. A couple of my LFS have Discus display tanks with line bred strains. All these Discus are way bigger than a CD. Probably somewhere between a CD and a diner plate.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

> Hmmmm. A couple of my LFS have Discus display tanks with line bred strains. All these Discus are way bigger than a CD. Probably somewhere between a CD and a diner plate.


Yep thats right! A CD is only abouth 12 cm while a domesticated discus should reach at least 14 cm((5 1/2) or larger when they received proper care and reached the age of 2 years. My 15 month old discus are all inbetween the 5 1/3 (poor eater and lowest in picking order) to 5 2/3 for most of them and up to 6 inch for the largest. They still can grow an inch in the next year.

I keep 6 Stendker discus and I'm very pleased with them. They aren't as difficult and delicate as most people claim but they do are A LOT more work to keep the water qualety up. I do 3 waterchanges a week of each 70% to give you an idea. Youngsters even need much more care and daily water changes.

Still a lot of work but I can assure you that it will pay off! I kept quit some fish species along the line and I like the discus the best of all of them!


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2009)

Dutch Dude said:


> They aren't as difficult and delicate as most people claim but they do are A LOT more work to keep the water qualety up. I do 3 waterchanges a week of each 70% to give you an idea. Youngsters even need much more care and daily water changes.
> 
> Still a lot of work but I can assure you that it will pay off! I kept quit some fish species along the line and I like the discus the best of all of them!


It's a lot of work because they ARE difficult and delicate. If they weren't, then it wouldn't be that much work. If you aren't experienced fish keeper, I would stay away from discus. I got my first discus after over 10 years of fish keeping and I lost over 20 over the last 4 years. Definitely difficult and delicate fish to care for and expensive!


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## ryansmith (Apr 10, 2003)

I wouldn't call them difficult or delicate, but maybe different when compared to other S.A. cichlids (well, except things like Uaru and angels, which I raise in the same way). You just have to buy quality, healthy stock and do your research first. I raise my discus in bare bottom tanks and do daily water changes. Give them clean, warm water (I keep mine at 84 - 85F), feed a good variety of foods, do your water changes to remove dissolved organics and nitrates, and watch them grow. The "rule" is one discus per ten gallons, but you could put six juvies in a 55 gallon bare tank and raise them to a decent size. Once mine hit 5" at about a year old I moved them to a 150 and they grew another 1-2". The males were gigantic, about an inch and a half thick.

Thanks for the recommendations about SimplyDiscus. I'm one of the owners there and I'm glad to hear that people have found it useful. 

Ryan


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

dntx5b9,....sorry to hear you had so much dificulties with the discus. I wonder abouth the reason you lost so many discus. Two things come to mind,.....water changes and qualety of the fish.



> It's a lot of work because they ARE difficult and delicate. If they weren't, then it wouldn't be that much work.


I don't agrea. Domesticated Discus aren't more susceptible to illnesses and I never seen a fish heal that fast from small injuries as discus. It is hard to keep the water qualety good becouse of the poor metabolism of Discus and the heavy feedings of beefheart and bloodworms. A good water qualety is the main thing in keeping discus healthy. Mine are on 28C, PH=8, GH=9 nitrate 12 mg/liter Conductivity= 600 micro Siemens, while ideal situation would be 28C, PH=6.5, GH=6 nitrate as low as possible. I don't call that delicate and to me the large frequent water changes makes it more work but not more difficult as any other cichlid specie. Except for the large and more frequent water changes I don't treat the discus diferent from my other fish.

Adult discus are expensive and thats why most people buy youngsters and grow them out them selves.

Ryan,...I found SD very useful and I also received a huge amounth of info from my fishy friend Larry (Apistomaster).

Here some pics.



























The one on the right in the second pic is the smallest and doesn't look to hot. He has been a fish with a small appetite from the start and is smaler. The fish on the last pic is the largest and 6 inch in size.


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't understand how you can say that discus are not more difficult to care for, not any more delicate than other fish while you list out all the extra things that you would have to do to keep them healthy and thriving. I am a member at simply. Just go there and see all the posts about discus turning dark, not eating, withering away, darting around the tank and dying, head standing, on and on and on. I am not even going to mention the borderline paranoid QT process for introducing new discus to the tank. I consider myself experienced fish keeper and discus keeper. I don't lose discus often anymore. However, I put in a lot more work to maintain my discus tank than other tanks. Why? Because they need more care and cleaner environment which means they are more delicate and more difficult to care for.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

OK maybe the diference is in the definition of delicate. I label a fish as delicate if it isn't adaptable and only thrive in a small parameter range and if they are more susceptible to illnesses as the average fish. I find domesticated Discus to be much hardier as most people claim. I don't have had problems except a swim blather issue coused by feeding to much bloodworms. My cats often jump on the tank and sleep on it and during the night it happened a few times the fish became scared. They had some scrapes on the skin and healed withing 4 day's completely! They do need some diferent care compared to other cichlids for instance the larger number of feedings and the higher temps. Except for that I realy don't find them more delicate or diferent as other cichlids. The only big issue with discus is to keep the water clean. Thats not difficult or challenging and only (much) more work.

Of course you read a lot abouth problems with discus. The same on this site with other fish species. Most of the people join a forum to gather info or to find help with issues like illnesses and only few show of their healthy fish and join for that reason. There are a lot of myths around domesticated discus. Wilds is something diferent and especially the Greens and the Heckels. Those are delicate fish just like apisto's and Ramirezi.

I keep my discus in tapwater PH=8, GH=9 nitrate is 12mg/liter. That doesn't sound like a sterile environment does it? They grew up in the same conditions. No special treatment and during water changes I pour in the water straight from the bucket. I treat them like any other fish only feed more often and diferent foods and do more often large water changes. So in my opinion domesticated Discus aren't difficult or delicate only keeping the water qualety up is a lot of work and the biggest challenge on keeping discus.

I realy can't get it why you lost so many domesticated discus.


> I don't lose discus often anymore. However, I put in a lot more work to maintain my discus tank than other tanks


 I started off with telling they need lots of large water changes and it seems like this also worked for you.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

dntx,.....I discovered you keep/kept wild discus is that right? Did you lost a lot of wild Discus? Did you mix up wilds and domesticated fish? Did you treat the wilds for parasites? Did you do a proper QT for tankmates (ghost shrimp) and new introduced fish?

Now I understand why you find Discus delicate and I do understand why you lost a lot of Discus.

- Mixing wilds and domesticated fish takes along a large risk of introducing illnesses that one of the fish is immune to while the other doesn't.
- Wild discus are more demanding and some even delicate,.....I was suggesting domesticated from the start.
- You didn't quarantine new tankmates and new introduced fish from and lfs. This brings along the risk of parasites and illnesses like gill flukes
- It would be a miracle if a wild discus didn't contain any paresite. It is whise to treat wild fish for parasites when in quarantine and some even treat every 6 months as follow up (just like with cats and dogs)

I hope you learned from the mistakes you made. I don't think it is fair to say domesticated discus are delicate based on this is it?


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## DiscusQueen (Jul 16, 2007)

Hi there... Just want to add that there are so many variables in keeping any fish, including discus, that no two peoples experiences are the same... I have kept quite a variety of fish including discus but am no expert.. That said..
Keeping wild discus especially in the beginning, is very different from keeping tank raised discus as has been mentioned. Most discus beginners will have a more satisfying , less frustrating experience starting with quality, underline quality, tank raised discus that are about 3 inches in size.... 
Tank raised discus have become used to a much wider scope of water parameters than it used to be.. As long as the ph and temps are consistent they will thrive in a lot of conditions. I have kept mine in water straight from the tap thru my python and the addition of Prime.. same as my other tanks.. The discus thrived and had fry.. I've had folks buy discus from me and drive them home in a bucket of tank water on a 5 hour trip.. The adult discus were fine.. As with most species the young are not as hardy as the adults but I don't think of them as delicate..
As to qt, I always qt any thing I add to any existing tank.. no different whether it is discus or tetras.. Because discus are so expensive most folks just want to be extra sure about what they are adding to their tanks so many qt for longer periods..
The one thing discus will not accept is a lack of commitment to water changes.. They need clean water and higher temps... but so do a lot of other fish. In keeping these fish that is the commitment the owner makes.. Just like if you have a fish that requires only live food or a period of the year where the temps must be lowered.. If you talk to enough folks who have had angels you will hear the same thoughts echoed about how hard they are to keep.. This does not make these fish more delicate or harder to raise it just requires a commitment to their needs.. 
I also agree that alot of times on these forums you are presented with so many folks having problems that it seems that the fish are very difficult to keep. Often those with positive experiences don't join forums or just lurk rather than posting.. It's kinda like if you go to a restaurant.. if you like your dinner you might tell a friend or two.. if you hated it you're gonna tell the world HAHA.
Again everyone's experiences are always gonna be different and we should just accept that. Also we have to remember that when all is said and done, they are fish.. and fish can not tell us what they have been thru or what's wrong with them.. yes I know they will show symptoms but as far as I know they still can't talk HAHA. some are gonna die no matter what we do. That should not keep anyone from trying these wonderful fish. Thanks to simplydiscus and a few other similar type forums there are lots of folks out there willing to share their experiences and provide guidance to others. Keeping discus is very rewarding and something that gets in your blood.. You will keep many other types of fish but you will always remember the discus..
HTH Sue


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2009)

It just may be difference in the definition of difficult and/or delicate. For me, if it requires more work, then it is more difficult. Also, if a fish requires clean water can't tolerate anything less than prestine condition, then, it is delicate. And discus definitely fit in my definition of difficult and delicate. I don't want anyone buying discus thinking he/she is buying a fish that requires the same care level as mbunas.

DD, I do have wild discus mixed with domestic. I have 5 wilds. I aquired two, nice wild browns, over a year ago, and I never had any problems with them. I never QT'd them nor treated them for parasites. My source had the discus for over 5 months and they were eating well and healthy, so I found no reason to QT them. Most of my losses were over a year ago before I got them. Since then, I lost a few, but not many. I am not as careful or paranoid about QT when introducing a new fish including discus. I get my discus from a reliable and trust worthy source. If I know discus I am getting are healthy, I don't feel the need to QT them. I have never had my discus getting sick from introducing other type of fish in the tank. For the most part, it worked. But discus being "delicate" fish  get sick easily and die easily from it. More so than other fish I have kept. So, that's where I am coming from.


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## ryansmith (Apr 10, 2003)

In all honesty, there are other cichlids that are just as fussy with water quality as discus. I had a tank of panda Uaru for several months and they were very sensitive to water. The same can be said for some of the smaller fish like _Dicrossus_, too.

As for quarantine, that's a good rule of thumb for any aquarist that doesn't want to risk cross-contamination. In the discus hobby it has become standard practice for a couple reasons. The first is that discus are expensive, and why risk it and lose hundreds of dollars worth of fish? Second, a lot of discus are imported. Fish coming from all different water sources and multiple countries have been exposed to different things and can be carriers. Most feel that it's better safe than sorry. This is not just something that can happen with discus -- I've seen tanks of angels wiped out the same way. Does anyone remember the angelfish plague from the 90s?

Most discus hobbyists are out for maximum growth potential in the shortest time possible. Because of that, it's suggested that people slam them with food and keep them in bare-bottom tanks for easy maintenance and water changes. You don't actually have to do daily water changes. On a properly stocked tank with adequate filtration you could get away with a couple smaller-percentage water changes a couple times a week. Keep in mind that this is usually recommended for all fish though, not just discus.

I'll admit that I treat all of my cichlids this way. They all get very frequent water changes and lots of food until they reach adult size. I do this with my angels, uaru, festivums, severums, etc. So for me discus aren't any more work but that's because I do the same for every species of cichlid I keep. I also quarantine everything upon arrival because it comes from various sources and you never know what it may be carrying.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

dntx5b9,.....we do have a diference in what we label as delicate or difficult. So I can understand your opinion from that point of vieuw.

It is clear you didn't follow common techniques like quarantine and paresite treatment. Also made mixes of wilds and domesticated. You were/are willing to take risks that are overall known in the hobby, lose a lot of fish and claim the fish to be so delicate. I don't think that's fair. I agrea that wilds are known to be more delicate fish and especially the greens and heckel. Domesticated aren't as picky and can be treated the same way as some of the eartheaters like Satanoperca for example or like mentioned, apisto's, rams and some of the other dwarfs.

I guess we will never agrea on this point dntx.

I'm fairly new to domesticated discus and I expected them to be much more difficult and delicate. Now that I can look back at 11 months taking care of my discus I can't understand why I hold back on them for so long. I always was thinking I wasn't skilled enough to keep those mystical and delicate fish alive. Now I wonder why people keep up a lot of the myths around (domesticated) discus and especially the "old" people in the hobby. Back in the 70's and 80's it was more difficult and lot of the curent techniques and knowledge wasn't availeble. Back then discus were only for the happy few. One was realy skilled aquarist if he/she could keep discus alive! Well those day's are gone, techniques have changed and moderate experienced *dedicated* people should be able to keep and thrive discus. Some basic rules need to be followed just like any other specie and those rules are based on temperature, foods and waste levels. Nothing mystical and nothing to difficult. Just be prepared to do more work on water qualety and keep in mind that wilds need more care as domesticated. [/quote]


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## cc_woman (Jan 31, 2008)

I do know where dntx5b9 is coming from. I have had similar problems with my discus and I DO QT for 4-6weeks using anti parasite and worm meds before adding. The discus are absolutely healthy and eating well off flake and pellets when I add them to the main tank. Then within a few months some start getting skinny, even though they seem to still eat. Then they turn dark in color and stop eating. I have tried medicating with no luck. I do 2 50% water changes a week, tank is a 90 gallon it had 8 discus, and is a well planted tank with tons of filtration. Tank mates are ones that I did lots of research in compatibility with. I keep my discus at 86, but am wondering if this is too high for all the time.

I didn't do the research I needed to do when I started keeping discus, but i'll tell you that when things started going wrong, I started reading absolutely everything I could on them. It has been over a year since I started keeping discus and I still seem to have problems. I have never been able to figure it out. I do everything that I am supposed to do, but no such luck. Just had to put my blue diamond discus down last week, and I have another in QT I am medicating.

I would like to offer a word of advice and that is to start with larger discus to begin with. Juveniles IMO take more work, especially considering they require ALOT of feedings in a day because of their small stomachs. Keep smaller discus in a bare bottom tank and keep up with lots of water changes. If you don't do this it can stunt their growth and you get football shaped discus. All discus I ever got that were under 3" never survived. It has only been the larger ones of at least 3.5" that have seemed to thrive.

I too think discus are more delicate, I keep many other species of fish even some not meant for the beginner, I have never had any problems as extreme as I have with discus.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2009)

Dutch Dude said:


> It is clear you didn't follow common techniques like quarantine and paresite treatment. Also made mixes of wilds and domesticated. You were/are willing to take risks that are overall known in the hobby, lose a lot of fish and claim the fish to be so delicate. I don't think that's fair.


Not sure where you are coming from, but you are making way too many assumptions. I never said I lost discus after mixing domestic and wilds. I never said I lost the discus already in my tank after I added new ones. All of my losses were the new fish I added to my tank or fish in my tank getting sick with no good reason with only one exception. May be I wasn't lucky in the beginning getting healthy fish, but I lost over 75% of the juvies and new additions in the first two years I bought and tried to grow. And I did enough water changes to significantly increase my water bill in the process. So you can say whatever you would like about how easy discus is, but your claim is with so many caveats.. I am glad that you are having such a great success with discus the first time around, but that doesn't mean keeping discus is easy. May be you just got lucky, knock on wood.


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## cc_woman (Jan 31, 2008)

I know several people who keep wild caught discus with domestics with no problems at all. I don't think that's really the issue. If you QT any fish before adding them, there should be no problems with mixing wilds and domestics.

I agree with you dntx, I think they are alot harder than many people make them out to be. Some people just get lucky the first time around and have no issues.

The only advice I can offer at this point is to READ READ READ. They require alot more attention and care than most other fish.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Well I'm sorry to hear the both of you had so much trouble in keeping discus happy, healthy and alive.

Wilds and domesticated discus can be mixed in a tank but it takes along the risk of introducing illnesses from one to the other. A wild fish can be resistant to an illnes or bug that is common in the wild while it could kill the domesticated fish easely becouse it never had to deal with that type of bug/illnes. The same for illnesses among domesticated that could kill a wild (or even fish from diferent stores). So mixing both wilds and domesticated take along a risk. It is fine by me if you are willing to take risks like that but I hope you can except when things go wrong. Same for not doing a proper quarantine or proper paresite treatment on wilds. I don't think it is fair to say that a fish specie is delicate becouse people take risks with care, quarantine, food, filtration, tankmates and so on.

The both of you might have had dificulties becouse of bad luck or a poor qualety fish to begin with. That could happen to me and it has hapened with a batch of apisto's (suffering bloat) and I lost 2 batches of rummy nose becouse of a mysterious illnes. I won't say rummy nose or apisto's are very delicate. In both cases I started off with bad qualety fish. Now I know it is whise to treat apisto's from the Czech Republic for bloat becouse it is common they are invested with flaggelates. I didn't lost a apisto since and they spawned for me. I keep away from the rummy nose becouse I simply can't get a hold on healthy looking specimens. But I don't think they are so delicate.

CC-woman,...I know you had some dificulties with your discus and have been catching up knowledge since then. Things went wrong in your case and it might be that the curent problems is still a heritage from the past.

dntx,...maybe they are assumptions but you were clear abouth your opinion towards quarantine for example. I remember some issues you posted on SD abouth a year ago. Those things were the reason for my assumptions. Maybe you did QT your fish regardless of your statements abouth quarantine. I should have checked that so sorry for that. But I do keep up my opinion on issues like quarantine, mixing wilds and domesticated and paresite treatment on wilds.

This all lead to a good discusion on this board but also over here http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=68962


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Dutch Dude said:


> This all lead to a good discusion on this board but also over here http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=68962


If Discus were as simple as claimed, then this discussion wouldn't even be taking place. E.g. I've never seen this discussion on Convicts, Oscars, etc. Yet these discussions pop up at least once a year for at least the couple of decades I've kept fish for. Ok, so I'm being humorous and not actually offering a new valid point, but that's simply because this "Discus argument" is so old that I can't find the energy to go through it again.

From most forgiving fish to "least forgiving of mistakes" to keep cichlids...

Convicts, mbuna, haps, most tangs, apistos, GBR, ectodini-type Tangs (sand-sifters, Cyps, etc), Discus, Tropheus

I have met many folks who might swap around the harder Tangs and Discus, but they are all admitting that the fish have their serious challenges.

It's only a small handful of species enthusiasts who try to convince everyone else that Discus, Tropheus, etc. are not hard or delicate...

always reads like a semantic argument to me though... as soon as I swap out the words delicate and difficult and use mine:"less forgiving of mistakes", they lose the basis of their position.

Discus DO NOT tolerate care that deviates from their requirements... same as a reef tank, same as tropheus and to the average Joe, that equates to the words they use in common every day language...

DELICATE and DIFFICULT

nuff said...


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Number6,......I expected this,..for some reason we rarely agrea, haha :lol:


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## cc_woman (Jan 31, 2008)

Thanks number6. It is very true though, if discus were so simple just like "any" fish, then how come they require more research and more specific care than many other fish? I can keep my african cichlid fry on sand from day 1, but discus fry have to be on bb. Discus are "very" different from many other SA cichlids, they require more feedings, need more wc's, etc. And if they were easy, as some might say, then how come this forum rates them as a 4 for difficulty, meaning they are harder to care for than your average fish. And I certainly would never recommend them to someone who hasn't kept very many fish in their lives, or is fairly new to the hobby. That was my first mistake. I had been keeping various fish like angels and tetras for about 7 years, but I wasn't really serious in the hobby, and didn't know much of anything about them, except how to clean the tank and feed them. I had been keeping other cichlids for only 4-5 mths when I decided to try discus. And of course I thought that I could keep them like other fish, boy was I wrong. And I do feel as though I am still paying for it, even though I don't have a single discus from when I first started with them.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

It's all realitive to what you have been keeping and your husbandry techniques I think. Someone already doing a water change every two days and balancing the pH at 4.5 for _Satanoperca daemon_ wouldn't find discus delicate or difficult at all.

Conversely someone that does monthly water changes and has never altered water before, just using tap would find them delicate and fussy.

Perspective is everything. :thumb:


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*cc_woman* just offering up my final position after 20 odd years of this debate... :thumb:

I am currently having complete and easy success with my first ever "Reef tank with SPS and LPS corals"... so far it's been a breeze. Did everything recommended to me by Reefcentral and the "experts"... Don't think I'll ever be one to start claiming on the internet that Reef Tanks are not difficult. I'll always say that they are extremely difficult, so get a good teacher and become a GREAT student! I did on the reef tank, but didn't on Discus a decade ago... wow what a difference the two experiences were.

Even some of the "difficult" fish listed above have been bred by happy accident by clueless wonders who had no idea that they "shouldn't have been able to". GBR or festivums for example... I've met plenty of folks who had theirs breed in with Mollies, tetras and the like in liquid rock and didn't even know what they owned!

I doubt that's ever happened with a pair of Discus :wink:


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*dwarfpike*
agreed! :thumb:


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## nickmcmechan (Jul 21, 2007)

just picked up this brilliant debate as i'm doing research - i'm picking up an established pair of blue snakeskins next Saturday.

so, apologies for hijacking this thread but i'd thought i'd keep it alive by bumping it at the same time

*What would be your top 5 tips to me for my new arrivals?*

(a little of detail, they are going in a 300l, planted, sand substrate, lighting 2wpg, add NPK as well as micrnutrients for plants, tap has kH and gH less than 1 degree, will be using HMA purifier, 2 externals and an internal in this tank which currently has a breeding pair of festivums in it, they'll be moving to the 180litre to make way for the discus)


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## DiscusQueen (Jul 16, 2007)

Hi... As to care and aquascaping, a lot depends on if they are a proven pair that you intend to let spawn and raise the young or if they are merely a mated pair that you want for a show tank.. I suggest you read read read here and simplydiscus.. Both forums have lots of knowledgeable discus folks.. That said there are many opinions on raising discus but the main thing imo is getting quality stock and then a commitment to water changes , temps 82-84 and consistency in water parameters and a varied diet of quality food.. Even the adults in my 120 gallon planted got at least once and usually twice a week 50% water changes.. They just look happier after a water change what can I say.. But really do your research and you will have many years of enjoyment from these beautiful fish.. Good luck Sue


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

If you intend breeding them you might want to follow a diferent strategy. People like Discus Hans keep pairs in small tank of 20x20x20 inch, bare bottom, no plants, no distractions no tankmates no nothing but only a breeding cone. This way pairs be the most productive and for them there isn't much more to do as only spawn. The bare tank will keep it easier to keep clean especially with the small fry around.

If you want a pair in a nicely planted tank just for display I would pay some extra atention on cleaning crew like apisto's and cory's like the C sterbay. I would advice to keep the stock levels realy low and take a lot of effort on keeping the substrate clean especially around the roots of the plants and make sure the plants keep on growing. I also suggest fast growing plant species to make up for the higher waste levels discus produce.

If you go for a more common discus tank with a few plants to make the tank more attractive I would suggest to make a plant aria with a bit deeper sand substrate or pot the plants. Keeping the substrate thickness small (1/3 inch) in the aria's without plants makes it easier to keep the substrate clean. Some tankmates would be nice as well but be carefull with algea eating fish. Most of them tend to feed on the slime coat of the discus during the night. I have good expiriences with Peckoltia and the small species of BN pleco's.

Read read read, treat the fish like normal SA cichlids and don't pamper them to much BUT,....keep the water clean and provide them the right circumstances (temperature, multiple feedings, qualety foods).


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

On SD I read you plan on doing 50 liter (13 US gallon) water change each day. This is a nice amounth of removing most of the poo and most of the uneaten foods from the substrate but IMO not enough to keep the fish happy. Related to my job I'm not able to do the regular large changes every 8 weeks for one week long. I can only do the smaler changes like you plan on. After a couple of day's the discus base color becomes darker and not as bright orange as normal. After the week shift I do a large water change and back are to colors! So my fish prefer the large water changes and the reason is you remove much more dirt and unwanted stuff with large (70%) water changes as with the daily small cleanings. So I suggest to do at least one large 70% wc every week in addition to the small once you already planed on. You can dose the ferts for the plants right after the large wc.


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## nickmcmechan (Jul 21, 2007)

thanks dutch dude

i'm kinda gettin' you and i'm kind not at the same time if that makes sense?

if i change 50l per day that's a total of 350l changed out per week on a 300l tank, whereas if i do 70% once per week that's 210l per week out of a 300l tank. so, my logic says i'm better with daily change?


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## DiscusQueen (Jul 16, 2007)

Hi... I think you have to look at it differently.. Think of a glass of dirty water.. If you change a couple of teaspoons of water each day you are diluting the bad stuff in the glass very little each day and you really never catch up to having clean water.. Compared to changing half the glass at once where you are really diluting any bad stuff in the glass by a considerable amount.. Hopefully maybe this can help you better visualize the difference.. Changing 1/8 each day for84 days is not the same as changing 70% once even tho you are moving around more total amounts of water you are not removing/diluting the bad stuff as well.. You can really see the difference in your fish right after you do a large water change.. They almost smile ..HTH Sue


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## DiscusQueen (Jul 16, 2007)

Hi... I think you have to look at it differently.. Think of a glass of dirty water.. If you change a couple of teaspoons of water each day you are diluting the bad stuff in the glass very little each day and you really never catch up to having clean water.. Compared to changing half the glass at once where you are really diluting any bad stuff in the glass by a considerable amount.. Hopefully maybe this can help you better visualize the difference.. Changing 1/8 each day for 8 days is not the same as changing 70% once even tho you are moving around more total amounts of water you are not removing/diluting the bad stuff as well.. You can really see the difference in your fish right after you do a large water change.. They almost smile ..HTH Sue


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2009)

But also, look at it this way, if you start with the clean cup of water and change a couple of teaspoons each day, you will always have a clean cup of water.


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## DiscusQueen (Jul 16, 2007)

Hi... Sorry for the double post above... Ok dntx5b9... guess we need to find a scientific guru to explain... HAHA... As long as there's water changes the discus will be happy.. and the more the merrier.... Sue


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Sue en DNTX have made perfect comments and this is exactly why I suggest at least one large water change each week. I like the mentioned examples.



> So I suggest to do at least one large 70% wc every week *in addition *to the small once you already planed on


But,...I think I wasn't clear enough on one point so I need to clarify. You plan on 50 liter water changes each day. Nice for removing most of the (larger) dirt particles like spilled foods and poo. In addition I suggested at least 1 large 70% water change every week. So my advice would be 50 liter 6 day's a week and one day a week 200 liter. Thats in total 500 liter a week on a 300 liter tank. That should keep your tank clean enough for the discus to be happy.

My curent water changing schedule is every other day 40% and once a week 70%. Thats abouth the same amounth of water as what I suggested to you. In my experience the fish appreciate the 50% water changes every other day more as the daily smaler once.


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