# fishless cycle?



## aandfsoccr04 (Sep 2, 2009)

Has anybody done the fishless cycle and if so what kind of product from the grocery store did you buy that you used as your pure ammonia?


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Fishless cycling is very very common...

Ace Hardware stores sell an ammonia that has no additives. Janitorial strength is 10% ammonia / 90% water...

You cannot buy 100% ammonia.

It is essential that what you use does not have perfumes, soaps, etc...


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## aandfsoccr04 (Sep 2, 2009)

you think I could find that at any lowes?


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

The Lowes in Michigan nor the Lowes in North Carolina had anything I felt comfortable using...

But every Ace Hardware I've ever been to has had it...


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## aandfsoccr04 (Sep 2, 2009)

I guess I'll look into finding an acehardware around me or the grocery store if they have anything.


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## steelers fan (Jun 26, 2009)

pure ammonia from giant eagle(grocery store)


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## aandfsoccr04 (Sep 2, 2009)

safe or unsafe?
everyday living: ammonia
Ingredients: water, ammonia hydroxide and surfactant. 
Judging from the library this is not what I want..correct?


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

unsafe.

You want ammonia with no surfactants. Surfactants is basically the fancy name for soap.

If the bottle doesn't say, a good test is to shake the bottle... if it gets bubbly, put it back on the shelf...


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## aandfsoccr04 (Sep 2, 2009)

daggonit. guess I'm going back to the store in the morning. I hope this fishless cycle thing doesnt take too long.


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## tranced (Jan 11, 2006)

i may be wrong here, but cant you just throw a heap of fish food in? that will break down and start producing ammonia? i didnt trust adding floor cleaners to my tank so i started my first tank this way, might take a bit longer but better than soaping your tank imo.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Yes it's possible to just add fish food... or a dead shrimp (or anything)...

There are tons of things that can break down and release ammonia...

But just like adding a floor cleaner with other things added... adding food or dead shrimp adds other by products that you don't want in the tank...

If you want ammonia in the tank... adding pure ammonia is the best bet...

Since 100% ammonia is extremely harsh and therefore not available to the general public, water + ammonia is the way to go...

As mentioned surffactants are unwanted soaps...


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

aandfsoccr04 said:


> daggonit. guess I'm going back to the store in the morning. I hope this fishless cycle thing doesnt take too long.


Today is day 28 for me since I started fishless cycling. I'm not in any hurry, so I didn't bother to track down anyone with some filter media to seed my tank, I just let it happen naturally. I expect my cycle to be complete within the next week.



tranced said:


> i may be wrong here, but cant you just throw a heap of fish food in? that will break down and start producing ammonia? i didnt trust adding floor cleaners to my tank so i started my first tank this way, might take a bit longer but better than soaping your tank imo.


Throwing in fish food will work, but it will take longer to cycle because there is an extra step - first the food has to decompose before the cycling process can begin. Cycling with ammonia is not adding floor cleaners or soap to the tank. Anything you add to the tank (fish, food, plants) will eventually decompose and turn into the same ammonia you can add right out of the bottle. Some brands of ammonia cleaners do contain surfactants, soaps, and other chemicals that you do not want in the tank, but there are many tried and true pure ammonia bottled products (such as ace hardware janitorial strength) that contains nothing but ammonia and water. A little research on the nitrogen cycle and fishless cycling should ease any fears you have about fishless cycling with bottled ammonia.


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## NetStalker (Oct 9, 2009)

The lowes here in Arizona had a brand called Red Max....there were two types on the shelf, a yellow colored one and a clear. The clear is pure ammonia and I am currently using it to cycle my tank. I had purchased a brand from a Walgreens that another forum said was a good brand, but it "soaped up" when i shook it so decided not to use it after all.


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## 55gal (Jan 19, 2009)

Look into Bio-Spira, it's an over night cycle product. The next day after adding product, check for nitrate, a Nitrate reading indicates that your tank is cycled. If you are getting a reading, add fish right away because you don't want to lose your bio-load.

Good Luck


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

55gal said:


> Look into Bio-Spira, it's an over night cycle product. The next day after adding product, check for nitrate, a Nitrate reading indicates that your tank is cycled. If you are getting a reading, add fish right away because you don't want to lose your bio-load.
> 
> Good Luck


There are several such additives. I've heard positive and negative reports on just about every one. I'm personally convinced that each of them works under certain conditions and does not work under other conditions. I don't have enough personal experience with any of them to have any suggestions of which are more likely to work or under what conditions they are most likely to work.

Also, suggesting "a Nitrate reading indicates that your tank is cycled", is sort of true, but is slightly exaggerated.

Having a nitrate reading suggests that you have both forms of bacteria (Ammonia oxidizers & Nitrite oxidizers), but it does not mean you have both forms in sufficient quantities to handle a fish load.

Also, since the Original Poster is starting from scratch with a brand new tank. There is no ammonia source. Therefore there will be no ammonia to convert to nitrite to be converted to nitrate... therefore adding a "bacteria in a bottle" type additive without an ammonia source will simply be wasting the product.

Instead I suggest doing a fishless cycle as typically described. If available, add some media/substrate/decor from a mature tank, if not available no worries. If you are in a hurry you can try one of the "bacteria in a bottle" additives, if not in a hurry no worries.

Whether you use seeded materials or additives, I still suggest you dose the tank to 2~5ppm ammonia daily and do so until the bacterial colony can oxidize/convert all of the ammonia to nitrates (0 ammonia / 0 nitrite) in 24 hours.


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## kinesis (Aug 20, 2009)

A useful article on fishless cycle: www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/forum/sh ... php?t=4777


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## 55gal (Jan 19, 2009)

I am one who has had good luck with the product Bio-Spira. Maybe that's what it was, a bit of luck, ?????? and your right some people don't recommend it because for one reason or another it did not work for them, it did for me.

I know the last couple of years they made some formula changes to the product and the reviews that I have seen are more positive then negative. One thing that they do recommend is that you check the date on the bottle to make sure that the product is fresh = 3-4 months old

I added a bottle to my tank, the next day I got a Nitrate reading and the following day I started to add fish.

But if you can get some media from an established tank that would be the way to go.

A well maintained tank is a happy tank. 8)


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## TKC747 (Dec 5, 2008)

If you do use Bio-Spira, make sure it has been refrigerated and check the expiration date


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## 55gal (Jan 19, 2009)

The directions on the new and improved Bio-Spira says that it does not need to be refrigerated :wink:


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## aandfsoccr04 (Sep 2, 2009)

Whoever used the janitorial cleaning ammonia from ace hardware how much did you add to your tank at first?


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

aandfsoccr04 said:


> Whoever used the janitorial cleaning ammonia from ace hardware how much did you add to your tank at first?


Thats what I used.

Add enough to your tank to bring it up to 2-3ppm, and then you won't need to add anymore until it drops. Once it drops, start adding the ammount you added the first day each day until the nitrites drop.

For example, I have a 55g. It took 4mL out of the bottle to raise the tank to 2ppm. On day 14, the ammonia dropped to 0 and I started adding 4mL every day. Today is Day 31, and nitrites should be coming down soon. Maybe this weekend. Still adding ammonia every day. If nitrites don't drop soon, i'll experiment with a water change, or cutting back the amount of ammonia I'm adding maybe.

The amount of ammonia to add depends on tank size. Use the formula 2mL per 1ppm per 50g.

Amount (out of the bottle) = 2 / 50 x (tank size in gallons) x (desired ppm)

So, for a 100g tank that wanted 3ppm ammonia...

Amount = 2 / 50 x 100 x 3 = 12mL

This formula is only for 10% ammonia, such as ace hardware janitorial strength. You can multiply by 10/x if your concentration is different, where x is the concentration of your ammonia. So above, if your ammonia was only 5%, you would do 12*10/5 = 24mL - half the strength, so you need twice as much.

Hope this helps. Good luck, and have patience. Remember, I'm on Day 31 and still patiently cycling.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

aandfsoccr04 said:


> Whoever used the janitorial cleaning ammonia from ace hardware how much did you add to your tank at first?


This is a 10% ammonia / 90 % water solutioin...

Personally, being a match geek, I calculated how many ml is required to add 1 part per million by figuring out how many million ml are in my tank...

Those who are less interested in math can add a few ml, test it and see what it does...

FYI, 1 ml adds about 2.75 ppm to a fresh 10 gal tank...


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## aandfsoccr04 (Sep 2, 2009)

so since my tank is 75 gallons I want to add 9mL of ammonia everyday for how long exactly?


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

aandfsoccr04 said:


> so since my tank is 75 gallons I want to add 9mL of ammonia everyday for how long exactly?


Add it on day 1 and then don't add any more UNTIL the ammonia in the tank drops to 0. When the ammonia in the tank drops to 0, add every day until the nitrite drops to 0. Then you can change the water to reduce nitrates and add fish. No more ammonia.


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## aandfsoccr04 (Sep 2, 2009)

oh so I have to wait until it goes back down to 0ppm and so I test the water for ammonia everyday until its at 0 and then I start adding 9 mL again or 5 mL everyday until nitrites go down?


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

It is important to not let your ammonia get "to high"... I am personally unsure of what "to high" actually is, but 5 ppm is commonly used as a safe "high" for ammonia...

I personally dose the tank as needed to bring it between 3~5 on a daily basis. In the very begining you may not need to dose at all to keep it in this range... you can wait until it drops to 0, or dose when it falls below 3... just be sure not to get it over 5...


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## aandfsoccr04 (Sep 2, 2009)

so I added 9 ml of ammonia 4 days ago. tested and it read 0 ppm. Then I waited on Friday and did nothing. Tested again and still had 0 ppm yesterday. so I added 10 ml of the janitorial strength 10% ammonia hydroxide. Tested today and still had 0 ppm reading. 
Is this a faulty test kit or am I not putting in enough ammonia? It's a 75 gallon. Eheim 2217 running and an aquaclear 110 with just some sand, aeration, shells, and texas holey rock.
Thoughts?


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Did you say you added 10 ml of 90/10 ammonia today... and tested the water a short time after... and it showed 0 ammonia? If this is the case there is a problem with the test...

It could be either A) the test is bad, or B) you are using an additive (dechlorinator probably) that is causing the test to show a false negative...

9~10 ml of 90/10 ammoina should provide a 75 gal with approx 5 ppm of ammonia...

What (if any) dechlorinator are you using? Are you testing for Nitrite as well? If so what are those readings? Are you testing for Nitrates? If so what are those readings?...

For clarity, when I say 90/10 ammoina I am referring to 90% water / 10% ammonia such as the Janitorial Strength Ammonia available at Ace Hardware which was discussed here previously...


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## aandfsoccr04 (Sep 2, 2009)

yeah that is what I am using the janitorial strength. I did not test for ammonia right after I dumped it in...i tested the next day. I am not using a dechlorinator at all. It's just straight from the faucet. No additives to the water and I have not yet tested for nitrite or nitrate..should i?


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

If you are dosing 9~10 ml of 90/10 ammonia... and are getting a zero ammonia reading the following day... then it sounds like your first step in cycling is complete! Congratts... half way there...

Now you will be waiting for the Nitrite Oxidizing Bacteria to form... At this point most of us reduce the amount of ammonia added per day. 2ppm (around 4 ml) should be adequate.

It is known that "to much" ammonia or nitrite in the water can become toxic to the bacteria itself, but I do not believe any of us know what "to much" actually is. It could be 5 ppm, could be 5,000 ppm... To be safe I personally do water changes at this point in the cycle to keep nitrite present in the water, but to prevent it from getting to concentrated.

Most people test daily throughout the cycle. It's not completely needed, as 90% of the time we do not change what we are doing based on test results, but daily testing does help us know where in the process we are (and if following my suggestion on water changes tell you when it is time to do one). But I have done a fishless cycle before doing absolute minimal testing. It worked just fine, I just dosed modestly to prevent over concentration of ammonia/nitrite...


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## aandfsoccr04 (Sep 2, 2009)

ok so I tested again...
ammonia: 0 ppm
TETRA TEST KIT: nitrite: 3.3 - 33 ppm mg/l It was the deepest darkest red which was the highest on the test sheet..assuming my nitrites have spiked!
API TEST KIT: nitrites- 10 ppm mg/l also as high as the chart would go
Gh-180 ppm mg/L
kh-40 ppm mg/L
ph- 7.5
nitrates-80-160 ppm mg/L

so basically what to do from here?


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Looks like you're right on track!

You have a suitable amount of Ammonia Oxidizing Bacteria... You know this because your Ammonia is zero...

You have an initial bit of Nitrite Oxidizing Bacteria... You know this because you have some nitrates, but you know you do not have a "full colony" because your nitrites are still very high...

From here, continue dosing with ammonia on a daily basis... this is required to keep your Ammonia Oxidizing Bacteria fed/healthy... This also increases your nitrites...

You need some detectable nitrites in the water, but since yours is "off the chart", I suggest doing a water change to bring them back "on the chart". You do not want them at zero, but you also don't want them "off the chart"...

Dosing around 2ppm of ammonia daily should be fine... which should be around 5 ml of 90/10 ammonia...


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## Danzx6r (Oct 12, 2009)

Did either of you have cloudy water after adding the Ammonia? Mine has gone slightly white cloudy, but it has only been 2 hours since I did it! Is this normal?
Cheers :thumb: 
Dan


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## aandfsoccr04 (Sep 2, 2009)

alright I added 5 mL of ammonia again and will do a water change tonight.

No my water did not appear to be cloudy. If you're using a new filter though sometimes the stuff from the filter makes your water a little cloudy.


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## steelers fan (Jun 26, 2009)

could be a bacterial bloom


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## aandfsoccr04 (Sep 2, 2009)

idk who you're talking to pittsburgh...
but I did a 30% water change so I guess it's just back to adding 5 mL of ammonia tomorrow and then I'm back on schedule? How exactly do I know when to stop adding ammonia?


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Danzx6r mentioned he had some cloudiness and I think SteelersFan was responding to him... We hear a lot of people mention cloudiness during the cycling process. It's not a required step but it is common...

Aandfsoccr04... The tank will always need an ammonia source... so you will add ammonia until you add fish. At which time they will be the ammonia source...

Also, most people suggest that once you have your Ammonia Oxidizing Bacteria in place, you only dose the tank with 2ppm ammonia each day. It won't hurt anything if you dose 5ppm, it just makes your nitrites build up faster... and as we talked before, if it gets to high it can become toxic to the bacteria you are cultivating (yet I've read no science as to what "to high" actually is).

So essentially the more ammonia you add each day, the more often you will want to do water changes... but not adding any ammonia will allow your Ammonia Oxidizing Bacteria begin to starve...

It's all about the balance...


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## aandfsoccr04 (Sep 2, 2009)

oh ok. I got you. So I'll just add 5 mL of ammonia which should give me roughly 2 ppm and exactly when is my tank cycled so that I can add fish?


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

When you add 2 ppm of ammonia... and 24 hours later there is 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites... Your tank is fully cycled...

Continue adding ammonia daily until the day you get fish...

Before adding fish you will want to do a very large water change to knock your nitrates down into an acceptable range and then promptly add fish...

Once the tank is "fully cycled" you will still want to add ammonia on a daily basis until you add fish to ensure the bacteria that you just colonized does not start to die off...


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## Danzx6r (Oct 12, 2009)

*Toby_H* Spot on!

Dan :thumb:


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## aandfsoccr04 (Sep 2, 2009)

tested again 24 hours after adding ammonia yesterday(5 mL=2ppm) for my 75 gallon.
ammonia=0 ppm
nitrites are still high so I guess it's just a waiting game until my nitrites drop back down to zero. I hope this doesnt take too long cause I just wanna add FISH!


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

During a fishless cycle... when I am getting the readings you are getting...

I think it is beneficial to do a large water change to bring the nitrites "on the chart"...

When Nitrite (or Ammonia) concentrations become "to high" they can become toxic to the bacteria itself. I have read no evidence to describe what "to high" actually is, but having mor ethan "a little bit" has no benefit...

Also, you only need enough Nitrite Oxidizing Bacteria to process the amount of Nitrites your fish produce... If you have a weeks worth of ammonia that has been converted into nitrites... you will be creating a nitrite colony capable of oxidizing much much more nitrites than your fish will ever require them to oxidize...

The short version of all of that... Dude... do a huge water change and keep dosing 2ppm ammonia each day... then do another huge water change in a few days...

Just be sure to add dechlorinator!


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## aandfsoccr04 (Sep 2, 2009)

I have not been adding any type of dechlorinator to the tank..such as prime or aquasafe..should I be?


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

You'll have to contact your water company to find out exzactly whats in your local water...

But I'm quite sure that every source of city water uses either chlrine or chloramine. Chlorine will gas off after 24 hours. Chloramine is bascially chlorine bound to ammonia and will not gas off...

Chlorine will be an irritant to the fish as well as the bacteria... the higher the concentration the more irritating. I believe low concentrations will have little to no impact... higher concentrations will... yet I have no science to support this opinion and have no clue where to draw the line between no big deal and sort of a big deal...

Chloramine is a sort of a big deal even in low concentration, since it doesn't gas off. Like most things, dealing with it for 12 hours a week may do little to no damage, but dealing with it 24/7 takes it's toll...

Just to play it safe, most hobbyists use a dechlorinator no matter what. I use Prime, but there are any number of them that will work efficiently. I did a cost comparison many years ago and found Prime to be the most cost effective product I looked into. It's won my confidence over many years and has still proved to be very cost efficient in more recent comparisons...

Prime (and several other products) do a lot more than just "dechlorinate" though. It breaks the ammonia/chlorine bond of chloramine, it removes chlorine, it converts (toxic) ammonia into (less toxic) ammonium (which the AOBs can still oxidize into nitrite)...

It claims it also 'bonds' nitrites & nitrates, thuogh it should be noted that this "detoxification" of ammonia, nitrite & nitrate only lasts for 24~48 hours...

The things I mentioned first I understand how it does and therefore believe firmly in it... The claims I mentioned second I do not understand chemically how it takes place so I have some doubts...

The short version of all of that is... heck yea dude, you aughta use Prime...

I have to much time on my hands.... lol


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## steelers fan (Jun 26, 2009)

yeah sorry i was responding to danz with the cloudyness after adding adding ammonia


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## aandfsoccr04 (Sep 2, 2009)

I mean of course I use a dechlorinator when I have fish in my tank but when I am just trying to cycle my tank I didnt know that I was supposed to be using a dechlorinator nor why I would be using a dechlorinator?


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

The theory...

Chlorine can kill bacteria...

So be it the chlorine concentration is SUUUUUUPPEERR low, it's still there. I personally think it's so darn low it doesn't matter, but I don't know that for sure, therefore I use dechlorinator on my fishless cycle tanks...


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## aandfsoccr04 (Sep 2, 2009)

I did about a 50% water change and have continued to add 5 mL of ammonia to my tank and still have nitrites over 1.5....is this normal?


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## aandfsoccr04 (Sep 2, 2009)

bump.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

When "fully cycled" your tank should be able to oxidize 5 ml of ammonia into nitrates in 24 hours, leaving both ammonia & nitrite at zero. So I would continue dosing the 5 ml per day for a few more days and it should catch up.


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## aandfsoccr04 (Sep 2, 2009)

thanks for the reply. I'll continue to dose it at 5 mL per day and then hope it turns into nitrates.


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## aandfsoccr04 (Sep 2, 2009)

still have about 1 mL ppm of nitrite in my tank...I am going home for thanksgiving on tuesday and therefore my tank is not going to have anything added to it and I'm assuming it's not all the way cycled since there is still nitrite in my tank. What's going to happen/should I do?


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Is this correctâ€¦

You are adding 5 ml of ammonia per day to your 75 gallon tankâ€¦ which is giving you around 2 ppm of ammoniaâ€¦

24 hours after dosing your ammonia reads 0 ppm and your nitrite is reading 1 ppmâ€¦ and itâ€™s been at this point for several daysâ€¦

That just seems strange to meâ€¦

Are you doing water changes? If not the nitrates may be building up and inhibiting the bacteriaâ€¦ or causing the PH to drop which may be able to inhibit the bacteriaâ€¦

I would do a healthy water change before you go away and then add around 5 ppm (10 ml) ammonia to the tankâ€¦ then when you come home you will probably be ready for fishâ€¦

Iâ€™ve looked around trying to find information about how much ammonia our fish produce per day with limited success. I was able to find a couple of aquarium related articles that suggest they produce very little and Iâ€™ve been able to find scientific articles regarding larger food fish and when the numbers provided are divided down to reflect fish the size of our aquarium fish they also suggest our fish produce very little per day.

So in all reality, when we fishless cycle our tanks to oxidize 2+ ppm of ammonia per day, we are likely cultivating far more bacteria than will be required for our fishâ€¦

But enjoy the holiday with the family. And donâ€™t worry about the tank. Dosing at 5 ppm will â€˜feedâ€™ the bacteria for a couple of days and bacteria can go a couple of days without â€œfoodâ€


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## aandfsoccr04 (Sep 2, 2009)

Great! That's just the kind of news I was hoping for. I think I will do a huge water change tonight...somewhere in the neighborhood of 65% and then add 10 mL of ammonia tonight and then order my fish this coming weekend and get them sometime next week. I love having little fishies. The idea of having something co habiting in my room with me that is such different living requirements if the coolest thing ever. All my roomates and many friends that come over to hang out, college-go figure, think so too! Thanks for all your help Toby_H; you've been great.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

If I have understood everything in this thread it should take about 30 days to do a fishless cycle?


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

rich_t said:


> If I have understood everything in this thread it should take about 30 days to do a fishless cycle?


That's about right. I recently finished a fishless cycle. It took exactly 5 weeks.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

Boy, it will be hard for me to wait that long to add my fish. LOL.

But I guess that will give me plenty of time to play with the rock setup.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

jrf said:


> rich_t said:
> 
> 
> > If I have understood everything in this thread it should take about 30 days to do a fishless cycle?
> ...


Anywhere from 2 to 8 weeks. There are many variables. But 30 days would be a good average.


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

rich_t said:


> Boy, it will be hard for me to wait that long to add my fish. LOL.
> 
> But I guess that will give me plenty of time to play with the rock setup.


I feel your pain. I re-scaped my tank at least 3 time while waiting. LOL


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

jrf said:


> rich_t said:
> 
> 
> > Boy, it will be hard for me to wait that long to add my fish. LOL.
> ...


I think for me the landscaping will be the hardest part.

I will probably post pics here and ask for suggestions once I start getting things set up. I have no artistic talents what so ever, so doing the scaping is going to be hard for me.

But I have seen some good ideas from the pics already posted here.


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