# ID help



## snakedoc (Jan 3, 2008)

Hey everyone,
I purchased this little one from a LFS. It was labeled as a Firemouth. He is quite skittish and sometimes, when stressed get a few vertical black bars on his sides. Any ideas?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_JbKnkB0vMEE/S4bpkgojaKI/AAAAAAAAAPA/UgrZbbXhhik/s320/Thoricthys_007.JPE

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_JbKnkB0vMEE/S4bp7HjrqeI/AAAAAAAAAPQ/4dnOE2pQFts/s320/Thoricthys_010.JPE

Rich


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

It's a firemouth, just a young one that either hasn't developed the red yet or was malnutritioned in the store so the red faded.


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## Joels fish (Nov 17, 2007)

Agreed


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## CoolCichlid (Feb 12, 2010)

Why does that fish called firemouth?


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

because adults look like this:


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## snakedoc (Jan 3, 2008)

Awesome, that is good to know. So, what type of traits are you looking at to ID this guy from the rest of the Thoricthys?
Rich


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

snakedoc said:


> Awesome, that is good to know. So, what type of traits are you looking at to ID this guy from the rest of the Thoricthys?
> Rich


Gill plate eye spot. Look at the great picture gage posted. It makes the fish look larger, more of a threat, and with the eye spots.... Oh man... look out!


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

snakedoc said:


> Awesome, that is good to know. So, what type of traits are you looking at to ID this guy from the rest of the Thoricthys?
> Rich


Gill plate eye spot. Look at the great picture gage posted. It makes the fish look larger, more of a threat, and with the eye spots.... Oh man... look out!


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## mlancaster (Jul 24, 2009)

I thought most if not all Thoricthys have the gill plate eye spots.

I do not have a lot of experience with Thoricthys, only had one FM in college, but from reading *snakedoc's* description before i looked at the pics, i was thinking helleri based on the barring description.

Then looking at the pics i had no idea; could be one way or another. It still could be helleri based on the light white/silver color (which could also be due to stress, just like the barring). I also thought that helleri had a lower shorter mouth/snout and it is hard to tell in your picture but the snout looks a little short for a FM. I also was thrown off by the blue eyes... the only blue eye cichlid i could remember was "the" blue eyed cichlid (cutteri). But i am sure i just don't notice or could not think of other blue eyed cichlids. Do FM have blue eyes? maybe when young? Then i defaulted to FM as others had already answered FM, and what are the chances your LFS randomly gets some cool Thoricthys.

Also it is probably worth noting you fish looks young and I am sure most of the Thoricthys look similar when young.

So basically thank you for listening to my incoherent thoughts than ran through my head with no conclusion, just indecision. I got a decision pad for Christmas for just this type of thing, but i can not ever decide if i want to use it.

Again sorry for the rambling, look what 80 hr work weeks can do to a person.

Thanks,
Matt

Edit: I looked at some more pics online, and my rambling was nothing more than rambling. i noticed FMs get barring as well, just less pronounced than the helleri (i.e. learning toward FM). I also saw that many Thoricthys can have blueish eyes including Elliotti, aureus, sp Mixteco and FM... so go with what "he/she" said i am just fueling the fire of indecision


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Blond HRPs
Cutteri
Spilurus
FM (and the rest of the family)

All fish with blue eyes 

Something about the shape of the gillplate eye spot that got me... plus, it's more likely that a store is going to have FM than any of the others by accident....


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## CoolCichlid (Feb 12, 2010)

gage said:


> because adults look like this:


ohh I see, far more different from the young ones..


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## phishes (May 17, 2005)

mlancaster said:


> I thought most if not all Thoricthys have the gill plate eye spots.


You are right, they do. It is one of the unique traits of thorichthys. They all flare up to make themselves look bigger and the spots are fake eyes.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

I have a tank full of fire mouths and a tank full of thorichthys gold mixteco right next to each other. The eye spot is plainly different


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## CoolCichlid (Feb 12, 2010)

LOL I thought they have 4 eyes!


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## aquariam (Feb 11, 2010)

I **think** you have *ELLIOT'S FIREMOUTH *_Thoricthys ellioti_


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

You really think a pet store would make that mistake... I don't.

Thorichthys species at whole salers are not kept anywhere near each other.... And a wholesaler selling ellioti would not be a normal wholesaler so they would know better....


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## aquariam (Feb 11, 2010)

TheFishGuy said:


> You really think a pet store would make that mistake... I don't.
> 
> Thorichthys species at whole salers are not kept anywhere near each other.... And a wholesaler selling ellioti would not be a normal wholesaler so they would know better....


I've seen tank raised Cutteri come in as Spilurum. I've seen giant predatory maccrobrachium shrimp ship as ghost shrimp when young. How many times have we seen rotkeil shipped as severum. These things happen.


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## aquariam (Feb 11, 2010)

TheFishGuy said:


> You really think a pet store would make that mistake... I don't.
> 
> Thorichthys species at whole salers are not kept anywhere near each other.... And a wholesaler selling ellioti would not be a normal wholesaler so they would know better....


I've seen tank raised Cutteri come in as Spilurum. I've seen giant predatory maccrobrachium shrimp ship as ghost shrimp when young. How many times have we seen rotkeil shipped as severum. These things happen.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Nothing unusual looking about this fish to me (??). Looks like your typical juvie FM. True, the various Thorichthys species can sometimes be very difficult to distinguish, especially as juvies, but nothing about this fish indicates it is anything but an FM. No doubt, petshops can confuse or mis-identify cichlids, but FM is the only commonly available Thorichthys species, as all the others are not usually available. As far as spilirum being confused with cutterri, that is not suprising at all, since it's only been about 10 years or so since they were considered to be one and the same species ( They used to be seen as simply different regional variants); they are very similar fishes though that has little to do with whether or not the fish in question is an FM.


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## snakedoc (Jan 3, 2008)

When I picked this guy up from the LFS, I chose him cause he looked a little "cleaner" slightly lighter in coloration. He did stand out from the rest of the bunch. He probably is a FM, I was mostly curious about how to notice the subtle differences between Thorichthys sp. TFG - if you have some comparison pics of the two thorichthys, I would love to see the differences in the eye spot. A really cool fish nonetheless.

Thanks for the input everyone.
Rich


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

I will see, problem is I'll have to pull them out to get pictures, both species are in high tanks with little light... I'm planning on doing water changes when and if my wife ever returns LOL


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Ok, I did do water changes that day and I did get pictures... LOL Unfortunately it's taken this long to get them posted, but atleast I remembered! LOL

Firemouth:









Thorichthys mixteco gold:


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