# Deciding on which Malawi.



## RandyS (Feb 6, 2015)

I'm reading and studying everything I can get my hands on to figure out the direction I want to go on my new 90 gallon tank.
It's a 48" x 18" (6 square feet) but because it's a tall 24" I'd like to be able to stock fish in different levels of the tank.

HYPOTHETICALLY if I decided to go with peacocks and haps could I sneak a group of yellow labs and acei in later? Or maybe with haps only?

Or looking at this from the other direction; if I started with 2 or 3 groups of Mbuna could you add a couple of hearty haps?

Or is this all more trouble than what's it's worth?


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

RandyS said:


> HYPOTHETICALLY if I decided to go with peacocks and haps could I sneak a group of yellow labs and acei in later? Or maybe with haps only?


Yes, you can add labs and acei with peacocks and haps.



RandyS said:


> Or looking at this from the other direction; if I started with 2 or 3 groups of Mbuna could you add a couple of hearty haps?


Depends on which mbuna you are talking about. Generally the answer is no but there are exceptions.



RandyS said:


> Or is this all more trouble than what's it's worth?


I don't understand what you mean by this?

First you need to let us know if you want to have an ''all male'' set up or if you want to keep breeding groups?


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## RandyS (Feb 6, 2015)

Thanks for the response bud.



Mudkicker said:


> Depends on which mbuna you are talking about. Generally the answer is no but there are exceptions


I would start with the least aggressive I could get.



RandyS said:


> I don't understand what you mean by this?
> 
> First you need to let us know if you want to have an ''all male'' set up or if you want to keep breeding groups?


I was just asking if I would regret trying to mix the three.

I don't think I want to spend the time and effort to establish an all male tank. From what I've read it can be quite the challenge. Although I wouldn't want to use up what little tank space I have with drap female peacocks.

I've never had breeding groups in the past so I think I'd like to experience it.


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## jw85 (Dec 24, 2013)

I had an acie in my 125 all male hap tank. He was crazy nippy, and constantly caused problems, which constantly caused him to get the tar beat out of him by the haps that were much bigger and stronger.

I have a yellow lab and white lab still in my all male tank. They are awesome and a great addition. My only concern is I'll have to remove them someday so they don't get eaten.

You could probably do smaller male haps, a male peacock or two, and a group of yellow labs? I seem to only have aggressive peacocks, but I've found having multiple males even when they look nothing alike to be challenging.

I'd do all of them from the start too, not add labs later because it may cause territory issues, and I'd also want the labs to be smaller from the onset.


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## RandyS (Feb 6, 2015)

jw85 said:


> I'd do all of them from the start too, not add labs later because it may cause territory issues, and I'd also want the labs to be smaller from the onset.


Ah, okay. I guess my thought was to bring in the haps/peacocks and let them gain a little size before adding the mbuna. That way the mbuna would be less likely to challenge the rest.

That brings up another point/question.

If my goal was to have male peacocks and haps it probably wont be cost effective to buy a group of un-sexed juveniles and then weed out the females would it? I may as well spend more and buy a male to start with. But then there's the size issue.

Do peacocks/haps require a larger female to male ratio like Mbuna?


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

RandyS said:


> jw85 said:
> 
> 
> > I'd do all of them from the start too, not add labs later because it may cause territory issues, and I'd also want the labs to be smaller from the onset.
> ...


You seem to be all over the place. First you need to make an absolute decision on whether or not you want all male.
If not, you need to decide if you want to go with Haps and Peacocks OR Mbuna.
Hap and Peacock females are mostly drab, so consider that.
Mbuna females can ve very colorful depending on species.
What is your short list of species that appeal to you?


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## jw85 (Dec 24, 2013)

In my experience, you may as well buy big enough to sex if you are going all male. It doesn't make much sense to me to buy 4-5 fish at $8 - $10 when you can just get a male for $40.

I was recently quoted $37 per 1.5 inch fish from a site sponsor for a pretty rare hap, but was able to track down a 5 inch male from another vendor for like $65. Easy decision


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## RandyS (Feb 6, 2015)

RandyS said:


> You seem to be all over the place.


Well no, i really don't agree with that.

I'm just trying to learn the ins and outs of what's available and learn the most I can before choosing a direction.

I guess in a perfect world I would have a couple of groups of Mbunas and male peacocks/haps. Is that doable?


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

RandyS said:


> I guess in a perfect world I would have a couple of groups of Mbunas and male peacocks/haps. Is that doable?


Yes, so long as the groups of mbuna you are talking about are Yellow labs and/or Ps. acei (aka Ps. elegans). I wouldn't really stray from those two species although there are a few others that miiiiiiiight work, but would be very risky. Keep in mind that even the breeding groups of YL, Acei, with peacocks and haps is on the risky side - especially when the mbuna are breeding, since that is when they will be most aggressive.

Also, you should stay away from the very timid hap and peacock species (e.g. Aul. maylandi, chitande types, lethrinops sp.).
Furthermore, I'd avoid any haps which grow to above 6 inches

Sent you a PM regarding a vendor which has a good track record picking out young males for all-male tanks.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

RandyS said:


> Well no, i really don't agree with that.


That's cool. Was not meant to be negative bud.



RandyS said:


> I guess in a perfect world I would have a couple of groups of Mbunas and male peacocks/haps. Is that doable?


Personally, I would not put a ''few'' male peacock/haps in a tank with mbuna breeding groups. Although the females will be mbuna, they are still females and the beautiful male peacock/haps will say to themselves...''well they are not my type, but desperate times call for desperate measures'' 

If you want to experience breeding, and don't want the headaches of all male, just go with 3 to 4 breeding groups of Mbuna, I promise you that you will not be dissappointed. Tons of colors and tons of personality. Actually, more personality and fun factor than and all male peacock/hap tank.


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## RandyS (Feb 6, 2015)

Mudkicker said:


> That's cool. Was not meant to be negative bud.


Oh no, not a problem. All is good. I really DO appreciate everyone's opinions.

There's so many possibilities I'd just like to explore all the options. Okay, okay, so my wife calls it ANAL! 



Kanorin said:


> If you want to experience breeding, and don't want the headaches of all male, just go with 3 to 4 breeding groups of Mbuna, I promise you that you will not be dissappointed. Tons of colors and tons of personality. Actually, more personality and fun factor than and all male peacock/hap tank.


I believe you're right on target there. I had Mbunas in the distance past although back then (in the pre-internet days) I didn't KNOW I had Mbunas. LOL
They are characters!
That may be the best direction for me to go.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

RandyS said:


> I believe you're right on target there. I had Mbunas in the distance past although back then (in the pre-internet days) I didn't KNOW I had Mbunas. LOL
> They are characters!
> That may be the best direction for me to go.


I suggest that you find a species that you REALLY like a lot and then work around it. It's hard to choose just one, but it's like everything else in life, you can't have your cake and eat it too.


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## RandyS (Feb 6, 2015)

So how would you go about stocking a peacock/hap tank (males and females)?
Do you try and buy them in pairs or larger groups like you do with Mbunas?


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

RandyS said:


> So how would you go about stocking a peacock/hap tank (males and females)?
> Do you try and buy them in pairs or larger groups like you do with Mbunas?


In that case you would go with four species. 1m:4f ratio. You need to accept that you will have four fish with color and 16 silver/grey/brown. Are you ok with that? And you could only have one peacock in that case because the females are too similar among the species of the genus.


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## RandyS (Feb 6, 2015)

Ahh okay. So you would stock them the same way as Mbunas. I've read a lot about stocking Mbunas in groups but haven't seen much info about the peacocks and haps. I just wondered if they were treated differently.

So, you could only have one peacock because you couldn't tell the females apart if you bought more than one species?

I think it's starting to sink in. Thanks for the help.

Are there ANY colorful female haps or peacocks.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

RandyS said:


> So, you could only have one peacock because you couldn't tell the females apart if you bought more than one species?


Exactly!


RandyS said:


> Are there ANY colorful female haps or peacocks.


I had a feeling that you were going to ask that question :wink:
Not really, I can only think of Copadichromis Borleyi Kadango.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Some claim hybrid female firefish are colorful, but basically haps and peacocks females are gray, brown or silver.


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## jw85 (Dec 24, 2013)

Some Placidochromis females look nice. There are several color strains of the electras.


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## RandyS (Feb 6, 2015)

DJRansome said:


> but basically haps and peacocks females are gray, brown or silver.


Ahh okay. So this is the reason you see much more written about purchasing Mbunas in large groups than you do peacocks/haps. Not many people are interested in having color in only 25% of their fish!


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

RandyS said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> > but basically haps and peacocks females are gray, brown or silver.
> ...


It all depends on what YOU want. 
What is your goal? 
A main display tank with as much color as possible?
Do you want to breed something in particular?
When you browse through pictures, do you gravitate more towards Mbuna or Hap/Peacock?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

No one is saying the silver fish are not attractive. But yes, don't expect the females to be as flashy as the males.

Actually I'm about to switch over like 6 of my tanks to mixed gender haps and peacocks. I'll just have to look at different tanks to see the different colors instead of seeing them all in my all-male tank, LOL.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

DJRansome said:


> Actually I'm about to switch over like 6 of my tanks to mixed gender haps and peacocks. I'll just have to look at different tanks to see the different colors instead of seeing them all in my all-male tank, LOL.


Funny you should say that, going forward I won't be setting up any more all male tanks. I'm glad that I got to experience it but I believe mixed gender has more to offer.


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## RandyS (Feb 6, 2015)

Can I get your opinions on this? I've tried targeting a more mellow group.

1:4 Labidochromis Caeruleus (Yellow Lab)
1:4 Pseudotropheus sp. Acei (Yellow Tail Acei)
1:4 Iodotropheus Sprengerae (Rusty)

Plus 1:4 of one of the following:

Pseudotropheus Socolofi (Pindani)
Cynotilapia sp. Harra (White Top Hara)
Metraclima Callainos (Cobalt Zebra)

Get along well with each other?
How does the color combination strike you?
Which one of the last group?
Too much blue with the Acei?

Thanks gang!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I did combine socolofi and acei in my first 72" tank and did decide it was too much blue. Same with acei and hara. You could do albino socolofi.


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## RandyS (Feb 6, 2015)

DJRansome said:


> I did combine socolofi and acei in my first 72" tank and did decide it was too much blue. Same with acei and hara. You could do albino socolofi.


Yep, I could see where that may be too much blue.
I've never been much of a fan for albinos. Any other ideas? It would be nice to introduce some barring or patterns of some sort.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

RandyS said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> > I did combine socolofi and acei in my first 72" tank and did decide it was too much blue. Same with acei and hara. You could do albino socolofi.
> ...


I have an idea. Go with the Itungi or Ngara variant of Acei and combine with Socolofi or hara.


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## RandyS (Feb 6, 2015)

Now there's an idea although neither one of them are real "lookers" are they? LOL


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

RandyS said:


> Now there's an idea although neither one of them are real "lookers" are they? LOL


Well, unfortunately a lot of the real stunners have attitudes that match their looks  . Sometimes they are worth it - sometimes.


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## RandyS (Feb 6, 2015)

Yep, that's what I've been discovering.
Anything I come across that would give me some nice contrasting colors are listed as NASTY. LOL 
I'm not sure how far from "mellow" I want to venture. 
I've also been searching through the retail sponsors for one that would have everything in stock that I'm looking for and that's becoming a challenge too. It would be less shipping costs if I could buy from one place.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

RandyS said:


> Can I get your opinions on this? I've tried targeting a more mellow group.
> 
> 1:4 Labidochromis Caeruleus (Yellow Lab)
> 1:4 Pseudotropheus sp. Acei (Yellow Tail Acei)
> 1:4 Iodotropheus Sprengerae (Rusty)!


What I would add to this list is Labeotropheus Trewavasae Red Top. You'll get an incredible male and the females are OB which in my opinion are really cool looking. 1m:7f though.


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## cbsmith (Feb 17, 2015)

Mudkicker said:


> RandyS said:
> 
> 
> > Can I get your opinions on this? I've tried targeting a more mellow group.
> ...


That is exactly what I have in my tank. They are all small juveniles right now but they are starting to color up and they look nice.


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## RandyS (Feb 6, 2015)

Mudkicker said:


> What I would add to this list is Labeotropheus Trewavasae Red Top. You'll get an incredible male and the females are OB which in my opinion are really cool looking. 1m:7f though.


That's a great idea. That's a good looking fish. I was actually looking at that but couldn't find much info on that particular one.The profile for the standard Labeotropheus Trewavasae states it grows to 7". Do you think the Red Top will get that big? It must be more aggressive if you need 1:7 eh? How many juveniles would a person need to buy to get that ratio?

And to get to the 1:4 on the others a person should buy 8, correct? I'm assuming if you ended up with more females than that it wouldn't be an issue.

All of you guys have been a big help. Thanks!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If you want 7 females buy 14. When you are stocking to capacity more than 1-2 extra females can be a problem.

That's to get about a 50/50 chance of getting 7 females. 50% of the time you will not get 7 out of 14.


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## RandyS (Feb 6, 2015)

Hmmm, that's a lot of extra fish to buy. Any other ideas that wouldn't require that ratio?


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## Kevin in Ky (Dec 31, 2013)

Randy, I would suggest a Cyno species like these guys..
Cynotilapia sp. ''Lion'' Lupingu ''Purple''

I think these would make for a perfect color combo, along with your Y-Labs, Acei and Rusties. It would be low aggression for the most part..and with the Acei and Cynos (who like the upper and mid levels of the tank) you would get fish always cruising in all levels.

I see that Dave's (Rare Aquarium Fish)..one of the site sponsors, has all 4 right now..and pre-sexed Rusties which is always good. That's who I use..and would HIGHLY recommend. No complaints ever and always awesome looking fish.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

Kevin in Ky said:


> Randy, I would suggest a Cyno species like these guys..
> Cynotilapia sp. ''Lion'' Lupingu ''Purple''
> 
> I think these would make for a perfect color combo, along with your Y-Labs, Acei and Rusties. It would be low aggression for the most part..and with the Acei and Cynos (who like the upper and mid levels of the tank) you would get fish always cruising in all levels.
> ...


Just when Randy finally nailed down a stock list, here comes a different recommendation...lol opcorn:


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## Kevin in Ky (Dec 31, 2013)

HA..isn't that always how it works? I am forever planning stocklists in my head,..but have no more tanks to put them in!
I have been wanting to try those Cyno Lupingu purple since the last tank I stocked. I chose the "Hara" instead (with no regrets)..but as soon as I get another tank, these will be one of my first choices.

Anyone here kept these before? Pics?


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## RandyS (Feb 6, 2015)

Hahaha, good stuff. I like that one too! Thanks guys.

I was surprised to find the Cyno is carnivorous. I didn't realize there were any Mbuna carnivores.

What else we got out there???? 

Hey, will Mbuna eat fry? Can I let nature take it's course with a setup like this?


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

RandyS said:


> Hahaha, good stuff. I like that one too! Thanks guys.
> 
> I was surprised to find the Cyno is carnivorous. I didn't realize there were any Mbuna carnivores.
> 
> ...


Really, all mbuna are omnivores. We should really change those designations on the species profile pages. This has been discussed in the past.
Mbuna will eat fry. A mother mbuna will even eat her own fry about 24-48 hours after she has spit them out. If you have a lot of rockwork, it's not uncommon for 1 or 2 fry per clutch to survive - but often most or all do get eaten.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

Kanorin said:


> Mbuna will eat fry. A mother mbuna will even eat her own fry about 24-48 hours after she has spit them out.


Are there any known mbuna/hap/peacock that actually care for their fry like some Tangs do?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Mudkicker said:


> Are there any known mbuna/hap/peacock that actually care for their fry like some Tangs do?


They consider holding them in their mouths for a month caring for them, LOL. Nothing beyond that. Well maybe 24 hours.


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## RandyS (Feb 6, 2015)

Okay gang,
I'm still trying to pick a fourth species for my 48" x 18" tank.
As talked about before I've settled on the typical starter group of Yellow Labs, Rusties, & Yellow Tail Acei.

Can I get your opinions on these?

Cynotilapia sp. Lion Lupingu Purple
Labidochromis Pearlmutt
Pseudotropheus Cyaneorhabdos (Maingano)


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The maingano will give you a bright color on both males and females that you are otherwise missing. 1m:7f.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

You need a blue barred species. Metriaclima sp. Dolphin. Both males and females are barred and attractive. Similar to Maingano colorwise, with a more mild rep.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

In a 90 gallon 1m 3f trewavasae should suffice... no real need for 7 females.

Labidochromis are also carnivores


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## RandyS (Feb 6, 2015)

Thanks guys. Yes, I definitely need some barbs or stripes to go with the other three.

Doesn't the Dolphin get kind of large? I've done some research and there's lots of conflicting info on their aggressiveness too. What ratio would be needed with these guys?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I've never kept them. I've read that they're mild and can be timid, to downright aggressive. Just buy 8-10 and let them sort it out. Save all the females.

I also like the Trewavasae recommendation. The variety at Thumbi West Island will give you a barred male with an orange dorsal and attractive OB females. Males can be OB as well. I believe the ones that occur at Zimbawe Rock are similar.


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