# what do you feed your trophs?



## Matt B. (Jun 29, 2005)

hi everyone,

i was thinking about picking up a group of about 12 trophs sometime soon, (to stock my empty 65g), and i was wondering, what does everyone feed to their trophs?

what foods have u been using successfully?

it NLS a good choice?.... i feed it to my other fish, so I have lots of it, and if nls is good for trophs, that saves me from having to go buy other foods

thanks


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I match whatever they are being fed on before I get them (first two weeks). Then if needed slowly ween them to NLS over a month or so but never totally stop using veggie/Spirulina flake.

Oh and in tanks with at least one or two algae covered rocks so they can continually graze when hungry.

Funny thing did you know Spirulina is not really Spirulina any more the name is old and should have been abandoned, I just use it to be understood. Spirulina food supplements are primarily from two species of cyanobacteria: Arthrospira platensis, and Arthrospira maxima. :wink:


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## Matt B. (Jun 29, 2005)

i did not know that spirulina is no longer spirulina.... interesting little tidbit of info 

and its good to hear that you have had success with NLS. I thought that it might be too high in protein content, but I guess not.

I actually bought my trophs today :dancing: .... i found a group of 10, 2'-2.5' tropheus mpimbwe (red cheek), and i decided to pull the trigger.
I am very happy with the group so far.....all seem healthy, and active.

I am going to try to start them on the food that they have been fed by the breeder, and slowly ween them onto whatever I choose to feed them permanently (as per 24Tropheus' advice...thanks :thumb: )

while I was acclimatizing them to their new tank (using the air hose drip line into the bucket technique), I noticed that they would swim up, and pop their heads out of the water, at the point where the tank water was flowing into the bucket. Was this a sign that they preferred the new water?, or were they just lacking oxygen, and trying to get close to where the oxygenated water was flowing in?

thanks again....and i hope to hear more suggestions on what to feed


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

Sounds like they were simply wanting to get out of the bucket.

As to food, 1 mm NLS is good but underfeed with it for a few weeks until you get the hang of how much to feed tropheus. They can really eat and sometimes the new owner wants to match their appetites. Not a good thing with any pellet food and tropheus. Tropheus beg constantly.


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## Petrochromislover (Feb 23, 2009)

i feed my tropheus spirulina 20 flakes


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Yep I still think it easier to feed Spirulina flake without overfeeding with great success but the growth rates and colour and extra breeding seem to me worth the risk of feeding stuff like NLS cichlid. But treat it with caution as all these foods are far far more rich in nutrients and protein than Tropheus's natural diet. (though Spirulina is far more rich in protein than NLS cichlid in flake form it is less easy to overfeed I think) Though in the wild they are pretty much always on the verge of malnutrition. It takes time for the digestive tract to shorten in WC so if you have these then slowly slowly change to aquarium fare may be the best. Life can be far easier and productive in our tanks (high nutrient environment) for F1s with shortened digestive tracts ready to take prepared foods etc. :wink:


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## Matt B. (Jun 29, 2005)

does anyone substitute raw vegetables (romaine lettuce, zucchini etc.) from time to time? Or is it better to just stick with fish food?

also, I have a question that isn't really related to feeding. I have noticed some white feces in the tank, and I'm thinking that the stress of the transportation etc. yesterday may have resulted in bloat.  They are still chasing each other around, and seem active, but if this is an early symptom of bloat, should I start treatment?..... I'm not 100% sure that it is bloat, but if it is, I would rather begin treatment in the early stages, in hopes of saving all my fish........ If it ends up being nothing, would a met. treatment be detrimental to the condition of healthy fish?

Thanks a lot for any help you can provide


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I've fed mine NLS since day 1. It's got all they need. No reason, at least in my mind, to substitute anything else. No idea what the breeder fed. Go easy at first as with any new fish. Mine are going on 3 years old and NLS is all I've given and I feed generously now with no problems at all. I've not lost a single one from the original 30 that I purchased. All are now between 4-5+ inches and very healthy looking. None are overweight looking, as I watch carefully for signs of that.

Can't answer your bloat question as I've not had experience with that.

HTH


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## mobas4-life (Aug 11, 2008)

i feed NLS 1mm.in my opinnion the best troph food out there! :thumb:


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

Matt B. said:


> also, I have a question that isn't really related to feeding. I have noticed some white feces in the tank, and I'm thinking that the stress of the transportation etc. yesterday may have resulted in bloat.  They are still chasing each other around, and seem active, but if this is an early symptom of bloat, should I start treatment?..... I'm not 100% sure that it is bloat, but if it is, I would rather begin treatment in the early stages, in hopes of saving all my fish........ If it ends up being nothing, would a met. treatment be detrimental to the condition of healthy fish?
> 
> Thanks a lot for any help you can provide


What appears to be white feces are in fact not feces at all. It's intestinal lining that is sloughed when the lining is irritated by parasites or other irritants, including digested sand. This is sometimes seen after shipping because the fish was fasted for a couple of days before shipping. A tropheus with an empty stomach is at risk, since an empty gut combined with stress could lead to a parasitic infestation. They all have parasites and bacteria in their gut. What prevents infestations is good health/immune system and lots of easily digested food.

If they are eating, I would not treat them. If one or two stop eating, then I would. Tropheus are tough fish. They don't succumb to bloat very easily, but it can happen and when it does, it's often during shipping or other really stressful times.

If they are eating, you will soon see brown/green poo again in no time.


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## Matt B. (Jun 29, 2005)

they have only been in the tank for about 26 hours, but they are not eating yet...... i'll wait until tonight i guess, and if they are not touching the food, then should i begin treatment?

I have a vial of seachem met. powder, but it is about 8-10 months old....will it still be good to use?


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

The met powder will still be good so long as it has been tightly sealed.

Did you get the same food the supplier was feeding?

Have you tried feeding, and if so, what was the reaction from the fish?


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## Matt B. (Jun 29, 2005)

I asked the supplier what they were feeding....it was a combination of a spirulina flake, and a staple flake, that they did not sell (and i could not find it any where else)..... so i bought the spirulina...... i tried feeding a couple times..... a couple of them looked at it, but didn't touch it, the rest seemed un-phased and didn't even look at it.

also, several of them seem to have an increased respiration rate.... and there are a few that are just sitting on the bottom, moving very little.


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

Treat 'em.


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## Matt B. (Jun 29, 2005)

I actually began treatment yesterday at about 6pm..... I gave one dose (the max recommended dose) at 6:00, and then another at 1:00am

I didn't wait to hear back from the forum, because I feared the worst.

unfortunately my fears were validated this morning. I woke up to find 3 dead, and the rest showing secondary symptoms


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## Matt B. (Jun 29, 2005)

I dosed with met. again this morning.

I found another dead when I got home tonight (I'm down to 6 now)

I just did a 50% water change, and dosed again.

It doesn't look too good for any of them right now, but I will continue treatment (hopefully I might be able to save 2-3 and maybe get some fry that I could try to raise)


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

Sorry to hear you're having problems. This is the experience that turns many people off tropheus. I hope you're able to salvage a few.


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## frank1rizzo (Mar 14, 2005)

Increase the water aeration. I found this really helps during treatment.

GL.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Sorry been off line for a couple of days. Are you treating the tank or just the sick fish in a separate tank? I personally think if any Tropheus is not eating then treat it but am undecided weather it is best to treat in the main tank or as many folk do in a small separate tank. Are you using Metro or Clout? I am undecided as to which is best as I tend to try Metro first and if it does not work I tend to try Clout. But again not had 100% success in all cases with either.
Really sorry you have had these problems, I know folk who have set up tanks less Tropheus friendly than yours and lost nothing again folk have set up tanks in a more ideal way and lost lots. I am not sure weather it is the luck of the draw or folk not being able to get good stock all the time. I can say I think treating with Metro helps reduce losses and I think treating with Clout reduces losses most if done in a quarantine tank were it can not destroy your filter bacteria levels or combined with dayley water changes to cope with ammonia that may be in a tank with damaged bacteria levels.

Again sorry to hear of any folks losses regarding these wonderful fish but that's part of the joy of keeping and breeding em. Not everyone has success first time or all of the time we just try and try and eventually we succeed?


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## Matt B. (Jun 29, 2005)

NorthShore said:


> Sorry to hear you're having problems. This is the experience that turns many people off tropheus. I hope you're able to salvage a few.


ya...... I'm down to 5 now, but it's hard to say how many (if any) will make it. (I am still doing water changes and met. treatments)

I can see why many people would be turned off tropheus all together... besides the fact that they are very expensive, they are also very hard to find (I have only recently been able to find them in my area)..... some people may think that after spending days/months looking for a reputable dealer, and then spending a few hundred dollars on a small colony, they don't really seem worth the trouble.

If I do end up losing all of them, I will probably try again (whenever I am able to find another variant that I like)........... For the 10 minutes that I watched them in the dealer's tank, I found them very interesting to watch. Unfortunately, it was all downhill from there.



frank1rizzo said:


> Increase the water aeration. I found this really helps during treatment.


I have heard in the past that increasing aeration helps, so I did that as soon as I began treating..... I added the biggest air pump I had (rated for a 200g tank, I think), and an HOB filter to increase surface agitation, and increase gas exchange.

Thanks for all the help so far....I will keep you posted on how the situation turns out


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## Matt B. (Jun 29, 2005)

24Tropheus said:


> Are you treating the tank or just the sick fish in a separate tank?


well, the trophs are the only thing in the tank, and for the most part, they are all showing symptoms (none are eating, a couple are showing what looks like the early stages of secondary symptoms), so I am treating the entire tank.

I am using metronidazol.

I have been doing daily water changes and dosing with met. twice a day.

just as a side note, out of curiosity, if I end up with 2-3 when this is over, what are the chances of successfully breeding them with only a single pair (or trio), as opposed to having a colony?


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## frank1rizzo (Mar 14, 2005)

Chances are not too good IMO. sorry


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## Matt B. (Jun 29, 2005)

frank1rizzo said:


> Chances are not too good IMO. sorry


that's what I thought.

oh well. If I end up with a group that is too small to breed (and if I can't buy more of the same variant), I will probably just move them to my 125g and make another attempt with a different species.

Does anyone have any suggestions for a different variant that I should consider for my 2nd attempt?..... Im not really looking for anything specific...just generally nice/cool looking...... I know dubs are supposed to be slightly easier to keep (which may seem like a good choice for me, given my troph track record), but for some reason I don't like how their heads are a different colour than the rest of their body...

thanks again


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## BigDinosaur (May 4, 2009)

From my experience, F1 are hardier than wild caught. Try getting some from a local breeder or shop.


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

Matt B. said:


> 24Tropheus said:
> 
> 
> > Are you treating the tank or just the sick fish in a separate tank?
> ...


Depends on the sex of the fish, really. If you end up with a male and 2 females, and the male is not too aggro, who knows?

At one point, people were sold pair of duboisi and lots of people spawned them.

I rebuilt a colony of bembas with 4 fish. 2 male and 2 females thrown in a 40 gallon breeder absolutely filled with plastic plants. Had over 30 fish in that group a few months later.


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## Matt B. (Jun 29, 2005)

NorthShore said:


> I rebuilt a colony of bembas with 4 fish. 2 male and 2 females thrown in a 40 gallon breeder absolutely filled with plastic plants. Had over 30 fish in that group a few months later.


Hmm... I still have 5 (no further losses since last night).... they seem to be improving since this morning (knock on wood, fingers crossed)....... I don't know what m/f ratio I have left, and I don't want to stress them anymore by attempting to vent. I will just wait it out, and try to vent whatever fish I am left with (never really done it before, so I don't know how accurate I will be)

thanks again for all the help you guys have given me. I will continue to keep you posted


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## Chris Murphy (Jun 24, 2008)

Tropheus are a huge investment and I think every precaution should be made before buying them. I have seen perfectly healthy tropheus go from stable clean water to another aquarium, with stable clean water and die within days. It is truly puzzling.

Clean water with "close" parameters isnt good enough in my experience. You need to match water parameters exactly, temperature, GH, KH and pH.

I hate to see guys losing tropheus. I have seen tropheus disasters knock the stuffing out of great fishkeepers. In my mind (If buying from a shop) I would ask to see the tropheus feed (or ask for a small sachet to be sent if ordered online etc.) and get a full rundown on the water parameters. Leave a deposit, go and match parameters in my home aquarium, then buy them and introduce to the tank.
This may seem overzealous, but if you are buying a used car you want to see it in action first.

I have to agree with the point about luck playing a large part.


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## Matt B. (Jun 29, 2005)

Chris Murphy said:


> Tropheus are a huge investment and I think every precaution should be made before buying them.


I can see that now, lol



Chris Murphy said:


> Clean water with "close" parameters isnt good enough in my experience. You need to match water parameters exactly, temperature, GH, KH and pH.


I think that is where I went wrong......I ran a full spectrum of tests on the water from the shop (the water that was in the bags) when I got home....... This place basically uses straight city tap water, to avoid any fluctuations from adding chemicals/other stuff to change the water chemistry......... I am on the same city's tap water, so my params are, for the most part, exactly the same..... I matched them perfectly on nitrites (0ppm), ammonia (0ppm), and nitrates (15ppm), but obviously I hadn't realized how sensitive trophs were, and I thought that increasing the pH, GH, and KH should only be beneficial to hard water fish (the shop kept them at a pH of 7.6, GH 150ppm, kH 250ppm, which are the params right out of the tap).... I had the tank running with a pH of 8.2, GH of 180ppm, and KH of 300ppm (I usually add a bit of baking soda to the water)............... I thought that if I assimilated them slowly, they should be fine with the change in hardness (I thought they would thrive in the harder water).... so I assimilated them VERY slowly, over the course of 3 hours....and at the time, they seemed perfectly fine.... I added them to the tank, and they started swimming around checking everything out (like any fish would)....but probably sometime later that night, or the next morning, I guess the they couldn't handle the stress of the transportation any longer, and I began seeing the white feces (which I now know, isn't actually feces).... and that was when I first asked for advice on what action to take...

sorry I wrote so much.... and thanks for your input Chris.

a quick update on how they are doing.... still 5 remaining. They are not eating yet, but when I try to feed, they do seem interested in the food (they swim up and smell it, occasionally mouth it and spit it out), but they haven't actually eaten yet.... I think they are just too finicky (and still a bit stressed from the illness) to eat at this point.

thanks


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

I'd advise treating until they are eating. My experience with treating bloat has been that they require a full 5 days of treatment and sometimes a little longer.


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## Matt B. (Jun 29, 2005)

NorthShore said:


> I'd advise treating until they are eating. My experience with treating bloat has been that they require a full 5 days of treatment and sometimes a little longer.


will do :thumb: .....I did another W/C a few hours ago, and things seem to be improving. (5 still remain)

excuse me if I'm getting my hopes up here, but I am a little excited right now......... 2 are eating....the other 3 mouth everything and spit it back out (exactly how they did in the shop when I asked the guy to try feeding them a different flake than they were used to)

all 5 are beginning to act like tropheus again.... they swarm to the top when I come to the tank...and they look like piranha when I put food in (even though 3 of them refuse to actually eat it)

one of them (who I believe is the dominant male) is beginning to show adult colouration, and has begun digging out his territory

do these sound like signs of improvement/recovery?....am I almost out of the woods?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> the other 3 mouth everything and spit it back out (exactly how they did in the shop when I asked the guy to try feeding them a different flake than they were used to)


Just curious if you were able to see them eat food that they *were *used to while in the shop. I'm convinced this thing started before you ever got them home. Seems like an awfully short time for serious symptoms to develop. Do you have any info on them from when they were in the shop? Like how long he had them, etc? I don't think anything you did triggered this. That 'white feces' that you've seen isn't actually feces, but the lining of the intestine. Just seems like an awfully short period of time to have a stressor trigger a full blown infestation that then triggers the sloughing off of the intestinal lining. And doesn't this usually start with one and then gradually spread? By the time you got them, seems they all had a problem. Think I'd go back to the seller and ask some questions about his quarantine procedures.


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

Matt B. said:


> NorthShore said:
> 
> 
> > I'd advise treating until they are eating. My experience with treating bloat has been that they require a full 5 days of treatment and sometimes a little longer.
> ...


I think you can see light outside the forest. 

Are you saying the fish were mouthing the food and spitting it in the store? If so, they were sick when you bought them.


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

prov356 said:


> And doesn't this usually start with one and then gradually spread?


Not necessarily. If they're all exposed to the same stressors, several fish could succumb at the same time.

Also keep in mind that a digestive problem or something that irritates the stomach like sand aren't necessarily bloat in itself, but could certainly cause sloughing of the lining and be the precursor to bloat.

I had featherfins over sand and they had white trailers dragging behind them almost constantly. Those fish sifted like mad. The sand was irritating their bowels. They never got sick, ate very aggressively and grew very nicely.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Umm I thought Tropheus ingest sand to try and help relieve gut irritation.
It is found to a large extent in wild Tropheus diet and poo.

But yes if they were not feeding well in the shop that was the sine to leave em there. Never move (unless it is to transfer your own ones into a treatment tank) or buy a Tropheus that is not feeding well (and pooing well). Watch em until you are sure they are all healthy (eating well and pooing fine) before buying. Not that I have always obeyed this advice but I have lost ones as a result I think.


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## Matt B. (Jun 29, 2005)

I'm sorry I haven't been responding to your posts...... I was sent to work in a different city yesterday morning...... I just got back



prov356 said:


> Just curious if you were able to see them eat food that they *were *used to while in the shop.


Yes, I did see them eat the food they were used to. I asked one of the guys to feed them for me, and he did.... they ate like pigs......

I also asked him to try a few other foods with them to see if there was anything else that they would readily eat (because they don't even sell the food that they feed to their stock, so I had to find something else).........the only time they were spitting out food in the store was when they were being fed different types of food



prov356 said:


> Think I'd go back to the seller and ask some questions about his quarantine procedures.


I have bought from this seller many many times before (probably 90% of my fish), so I am fairly confident in them..... Their manager keeps a close eye on their cichlid stock..... I do have respect for his experience in the hobby, and if I were to name him, several people here would know who he is......... To make a long explanation short.... I have quite a bit of confidence in this seller

to update the situation..... all 5 are eating, and seem to be perfectly healthy
unfortunately, I really doubt my chances of breeding this remaining group to form a new colony..... based on their interaction with each other (I haven't vented them.... and im not quite sure how accurate I would be if I did) my guess would be that I have 1 female (maybe 2, but I really doubt it)................ these fish are about 2" (give or take 0.5")....... how long will it be before they reach maturity?


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Dunno why they did not just pop a little of the food they were on into a bag for you. All shops I have asked for this in the UK have been happy to do this.



Matt B. said:


> these fish are about 2" (give or take 0.5")....... how long will it be before they reach maturity?


I have never timed this. I think it might be quite variable though. 6 months at a very rough guess. But folk seem able to breed em smaller and smaller these days far smaller and younger than me. I guess a set up with low food and forced to eat algae like mine are, is a rather slow way.


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## Matt B. (Jun 29, 2005)

ok...so it may be a couple more months before I can expect any breeding.

as an update to my situation, I have had one aggression related death....it was the dominant male that was constantly chasing one of the others (not sure if the victim was male of female)........ So I'm down to 4 now..... hopefully I will still be able to breed this small group


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