# to cull or not to cull? that is the topic



## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

please keep an open mind while reading this thread. the first half is fact, the second half is opinion. i make some very good points and some guidelines that can help beginner cichlid keepers.

before i get into my personal opinions, let me educate readers with the original definition of culling. culling was and in many cases still is a term used in selective breeding meaning to use only the very best specimens in your breeding colonies to ensure a better possibility of having high quality offspring.

Culling: The rejection or removal of inferior individuals from breeding. The act of selective breeding. As used in the practice of breeding pedigree cats, this refers to the practice of spaying or neutering a kitten or cat that does not measure up to the show standard (or other standard being applied) for that breed. In no way does culling, as used by responsible breeders, signify the killing of healthy kittens or cats if they fail to meet the applicable standard."
Robinson's Genetics for Cat Breeders and Veterinarians, Fourth Edition[1]

let me state that more clearly for anyone who may not have understood..... to a responsible breeder, "culling" does not mean to kill your fish if you decide you dont want them anymore or if they are hybridized. it means to remove or refuse purchase of inferior specimens for your breeding colony. the act of actually killing the inferior specimens is called euthanasia, and is usually only used in cases of physical deformity or near fatal injury, by again, responsible breeders. in recent years people have turned culling into a more polite way of saying to euthanize perfectly healthy livestock and thus the definition will forever be changed.

culling was used in the origins of many types of cichlids to bring out the more desirable characteristics such as the Sweden hongi.

{PLEASE READ} if anyone disagrees with the facts stated above, please dont clutter the thread with hate mail and rude comments. I'm trying to have an intelligent conversation here and would really appreciate if those comments were left out. any disagreements with my opinions stated below may be posted but please keep it intelligent and refrain from rude comments. remember that opinions are like an a**hole, everyone has one.

now on to my opinions. if you feel so strongly that you would rather euthanize a perfectly healthy batch of fry, than to risk having hybrid fry, you should only be keeping species that absolutely can not hybridize. if you want to house several species that can hybridize, you should buy adult fish and have a male only tank. if you want to breed and feel this way, you should have species only tanks. its as simple as that. if you keep males and female fish of species that can hybridize in the same tank, you should keep a close enough eye on your fish to know the day that the female begins to hold and strip the eggs from her mouth before they even begin to develop and dispose of them, but this is a less favorable option because they will continue to attempt to breed and constantly stripping the female will cause her a lot of stress and may eventually cause death.

if you do end up with hybrid fry, there is, IN MY OPINION, no reason donating them to the local fish store, as long as you tell them that the fry are hybrids, should be frowned upon. any fish store with an "assorted african cichlids" tank sells hybrids and there is a good chance that the fish in that tank are indeed hybrids. you could also leave the fry in your tank. let nature take its course and see how many survive and what they look like as they grow. many stores intentionally breed hybrids because some of these fish are absolutely beautiful. keeping in mind that ANY OB FISH IS A HYBRID, and they are extremely popular. you may end up with a beautiful fish.

one more thing to consider, the fact that most of these fish can indeed hybridize, and the fact that new species are found in the wild annually; does anyone see where im going with this? these cichlids all live together in the wild. they hybridize in the wild, and that is why there are so many new species each year and why so many of these species are nearly identical. it shouldnt be "who came first; the chicken or the egg?" it should be "who came first; the johanni or the maingano?"

in cases of severe injury, what do you do? i am now caring for one of my female red zebras who was beat nearly to death. her tail was completely gone, most of her body was bleeding and missing scales and fins, and she was floating upside down at the bottom of the tank gasping for air. i was certain she would die but i pulled her into a breeder box anyway. things continued to deteriorate and there were several times i thought she had passed on floating at the top of the tank. she couldnt eat, i had to actually put food into her mouth. but after about a week she began to attempt to swim. by the next week she could make it to the bottom of the breeder box and now only 3 weeks after the injury she is swimming happily around her own 10 gallon tank with her tail half grown back. i understand that not everyone has room for hospital tanks but she would be just fine in the hang on breeder box that i bought for $13. she is my pet, not just a piece of furniture that i would just throw away. the same way i would care for my dogs, rabbits or iguana if they were injured.

i also understand wanting to keep pure strains of each species intact for future generations. but just like in the dog and cat breeding community, there will always be the high class breeders who only breed pure bread animals. then there are the local breeders who make the gorgeous husky chow mix i have. and then there are the kennel breeders who breed dogs and then torture and murder the ones they cant sell. that is why the animal welfare act was put into place to protect these animals. but it doesnt protect fish, so we have to teach people how to be responsible with their pets.

but these are just my opinions. tell me how you feel about it. opcorn:


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

ilm121209 said:


> new species are found in the wild annually ... these cichlids all live together in the wild. they hybridize in the wild, and that is why there are so many new species each year and why so many of these species are nearly identical. it shouldnt be "who came first; the chicken or the egg?" it should be "who came first; the johanni or the maingano?"


According to scientists who dive the lakes annually and have observed these fish over many years (decades?), hybrids are very rare in the wild. Given a choice (when not confined together in a glass box) fish are likely to choose their own species. The reason the species are nearly identical is that they ORIGINATED as one species and evolved to be different when physical changes to geography (for example, the lake dropped leaving rock barriers between populations). This is considered to be a unique and amazing occurrance in the rift lakes and Malawi especially, and worth preserving. The reason new species are found annually is new species still remain undiscovered.


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

even when confined to an aquarium they are more likely to choose their own species when available. even if hybrids are "rare" in the wild, over the millions of years the amount of hybrids that do occur with eventually create new strains.


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## Michael_S (Aug 18, 2013)

ilm121209 said:


> even when confined to an aquarium they are more likely to choose their own species when available. even if hybrids are "rare" in the wild, over the millions of years the amount of hybrids that do occur with eventually create new strains.


I do not know if this is true. And what I am saying is just my logic, but I could still be wrong. I believe that those "rare" hybrids in the wild will have a tough time spawning with each other to continue the hybrid "species". I just think that if a brood of hybrids occur that they will most likely not continue because they look different from both parents. I guess they could spawn with each other, but that won't be very likely when only a few fry survive from each brood in the wild. I think I also read someone saying something similar to what I am saying on a different thread here.

I agree with DJRansome about how evolution takes place in the lake creating variants and eventually different species.


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

in my mind, if fish that look totally different can hybridize in an aquarium, it could happen in the wild. and then even if one fry survives and manages to mate with another fish, and then one fry survives and mates and so on... years later i believe that this could cause many new trains and variations of strains. but lets get back to the real topic here, do you euthanize your fish if you dont want a batch of fry?


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

also, by saying " they ORIGINATED as one species and evolved" seems more like it would imply the mouth brooding or the shapes of their bodies. evolution may have had some impact on their color but i think the possibilities of hybridization is just as suitable of an answer to that question as saying that they all evolved differently. maybe its a little of both. maybe were both wording the same thing in a different way.


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## Michael_S (Aug 18, 2013)

Just like you did with your female red zebra I just recently did with my smallest elongatus chewere. I received him with only half his tail. The next day he had no tail and missing the majority of his anal fin and parts of his dorsal. I put him in a breeder box. And three weeks later, today I put him back in the tank and he is swimming happily and healthily with full fins.

I have never dealt with hybrid fry. If I catch two different species spawning, I would probably remove the female or male from the tank permanently after stripping the eggs. I think I would feed the eggs to the other fish(maybe, not sure).

So I would kill the eggs before they are fry and remove that male(only if he is an extra male) or the female.

Lately there has been spawning activity in my tank. Last week my female crabro held for the first time, but she swallowed them within a day. My male Cobwe has one specific female that he always spawns with, but he still shows off in front of the other females of his kind. He only shows aggression towards the other species and no spawning activity. I don't think hybridization is going to occur in my tank, but if it does I would do what I previously said I would do.

Now my other opinion...
I think the reason why males of different species have such bright colors is the same reason why birds such as cardinals have such bright colors. It attracts females. So evolution does indeed have a huge impact on the color, but only to signify the differences in each different species. A hybrid in the wild still has those genes from there different species parents somewhere in there DNA. So even if the first brood of hybrid fry reproduced with each other there fry could end up looking entirely different from their parents and the original parents that started the original hybrids. A hybrid species can't last hundreds of generations because of the inconsistency in physical characteristics.


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

inconsistency in physical characteristics? if a yellow lab mated with a red zebra you would end up with a lighter orange fish. yes some may be ob and some may be deformed, but the healthy fry could survive, maybe maintaining the black bars, and mate with a red zebra again. some of those fry would still maintain that black bar but become a shade brighter orange. after generations of this combination along with selective breeding, you could see a fish with red zebra coloring and yellow lab barring. i dont know about you but that sounds like a gorgeous fish to me. im a big fan of labs and socolofi because i like the contrast of the bright colors with the black bars. if noone ever allows hybrid fry, i may never own that fish, and thats not okay in my book.


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## lilscoots (Mar 13, 2012)

How bout we use a definition of culling not from cat breeding, since we're not cat breeding here and spaying/neutering these fish is not a possibility.

Culling is the process of removing breeding animals from a group based on specific criteria. This is done either to reinforce certain desirable characteristics or to remove certain undesirable characteristics from the group. For livestock and wildlife alike, culling usually implies the killing of the removed animals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culling

Culling and selective breeding are not synonymous.

That's to deal with the "fact" part of your argument.

Now onto the opinion part....you posit that new species are formed via hybridization and that since it happens so readily in the aquarium it must happen in the lake. Most species are not the result of hybridization, evolution goes the other way in almost all cases, you start with one and end up with more, not the other way around.

I agree that if you want to be certain you don't produce hybrids, keep them in a species only tank. But, thanks to instincts within in the fish, you can responsibly keep different breeding groups in the same tank if measures are taken to limit the chances of hybridization such as proper male to female ratios, not keeping fish of the same genus in the same tank, not keeping fish that look similar in the same tank. But if you do produce hybrids I believe it is your responsibility to cull these fish. For me, that's killing, but if you aren't willing to kill them you need to be willing to keep them in your tanks for the entirety of their lives, not distribute them.

I also agree that if you are going to cull fish, do it as early as you can. Not that the life of a youngling is any less significant than that of an adult, but sensitivity to pain is not as well developed the younger they are. And I in no way condone killing fish who are not anesthetized. In fact I prefer using clove oil to anesthetize then follow with a swift devastating blow to the brain, please don't freeze your fish.


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## Michael_S (Aug 18, 2013)

ilm121209 said:


> inconsistency in physical characteristics? if a yellow lab mated with a red zebra you would end up with a lighter orange fish. yes some may be ob and some may be deformed, but the healthy fry could survive, maybe maintaining the black bars, and mate with a red zebra again. some of those fry would still maintain that black bar but become a shade brighter orange. after generations of this combination along with selective breeding, you could see a fish with red zebra coloring and yellow lab barring. i dont know about you but that sounds like a gorgeous fish to me. im a big fan of labs and socolofi because i like the contrast of the bright colors with the black bars. if noone ever allows hybrid fry, i may never own that fish, and thats not okay in my book.


The colors of hybrids are not always a blend of their parents colors. If you mix a yellow lab and red zebra you are not always going to get the same result each time you mix two different individuals. Yes, the fish does sound like a good looking fish, but that does not mean it is its own species. I, personally am not a fan of hybrids which I am guessing you can already tell.


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

well, if you read that article down a little further to the origins of the term, you will see the exact definition i used in my post, because i pulled my definition directly from that same article. and if you read my post you will see where i say that in recent years the definition has been changed. also, the fact that even if the definition states that culled animals are sometimes killed, the act of killing that animal is still and will continue to be labeled as euthanasia. so saying "hey guys, im going to cull this fish" only implies removal of the fish. lets not beat around the bush here. my point isnt that you shouldnt kill fish, its that you shouldnt put yourself in a situation where that would be considered necessary. if youre going to euthanize fish, use the proper term. admit that you are going to euthanize the fish instead of trying to find a nicer way to put it.

the second part you are mistaken on is where you say culling and selective breeding are different. culling as defined in your definition is as follows "Culling is the process of removing breeding animals from a group based on specific criteria. This is done either to reinforce certain desirable characteristics or to remove certain undesirable characteristics from the group." where as selective breeding is defined (also on wikipedia for your easy access) as follows "Selective breeding (also called artificial selection) is the process by which humans breed other animals and plants for particular traits."

selective breeding is the art of breeding for specific traits, culling is the action taken to perform selective breeding.

evolution in a larger scale creates many different characteristics but usually not in that small of an area. which i understand is the beauty behind the rift lakes but whether we agree on it or not, i believe hybridization fed into the amount of differences.

at least we agree on one thing, it is sick and disturbed to freeze your fish to death. and if for some reason you absolutely have to EUTHANIZE a fish, it is best to numb them and do it quickly.

just to prove my point... as defined by wikipedia...

Euthanasia (from Greek: εὐθανασία; "good death": εὖ, eu; "well" or "good" - θάνατος, thanatos; "death") refers to the practice of intentionally ending a life in order to relieve pain and suffering.

so maybe killing healthy fish for selfish purposes should have a new name, because it is certainly not to relieve anyones pain and suffering but your own.


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

michael i do know that. but there is a possibility that a few of the fry would have those characteristics. and eventually the genetics could stabilize and be consistent. im not a fan of hybrids either but a good looking fish is a good looking fish.


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## Michael_S (Aug 18, 2013)

ilm121209 said:


> michael i do know that. but there is a possibility that a few of the fry would have those characteristics. and eventually the genetics could stabilize and be consistent.


True when considering man-made hybrids.



> im not a fan of hybrids either but a good looking fish is a good looking fish.


Yeah, but I like breeding my fish so I will never keep one on purpose.


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

also, for future reference "lilscoots", i started this thread to have an intelligent conversation about fish, i felt your tone in your response was a little on the harsh side and im going to apologize if my response was mean, but state that the use of cat breeding in my definition was simply an example, and im going to ask that if we can not be civilized people, to please move on to another thread and let us continue our conversation in peace.


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

michael i have to thank you for being an adult about this thread. i didnt start this to aruge about hybrids, i wanted to have a conversation and see other peoples opinions. and you seem to genuinely get that. i only keep hybrids in all male tanks and only if theyre gorgeous. i never let my fish hybridize. hopefully some other people can chime in on this.


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## Michael_S (Aug 18, 2013)

ilm121209 said:


> hopefully some other people can chime in on this.


I'm hoping for a mod


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

well djransome is a mod but he didnt seem to be very open minded to my ideas. but most people arent. i tend to lean towards pushing boundaries and thinking outside of the box. not quite like the guy with almost 80 fish in a 55 gallon tank, but i was really interested in that tank. having to do daily or more water changes on my fry tanks is quite enough, i cant imagine what his water change schedule is like. ill pass


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## lilscoots (Mar 13, 2012)

I'm not trying to be negative or harsh, I just don't sugar coat, it's not in my nature. So in reading this know that I do not have an angry face whilst writing this. 

For someone who comes from pedigree breeding (dog, cat) the common definition of culling does not include killing as you stated. For someone who comes from an agricultural background, culling means sending the individuals culled to the slaughterhouse. I'm guessing there are people keeping fish who fall into both of those categories. I'm guessing you can tell which one I'm from.

My problem with people not being responsible for their unwanted fry is that when you dump hybrids into the market because you are unwilling to keep them you only exasperate the problem. If people would not produce hybrids and stop buying them because they're cheap we wouldn't have such a problem with hybrids in the hobby. There are so many threads here where someone posts "Hey, I have these fish does anyone know what they are?" and we jump in and say things like it could be this it could be that, it's a hybrid you shouldn't have gotten those, go return them, do some research, get some of these etc. etc. and while most of us try and be civil, some of us aren't and that's discouraging as a new or uninformed fish keeper. If we didn't have all these hybrids, they could go into a store, and at least get some pure fish, not necessarily the right mix but at least we could be a lot more "sure" of what they have at least when we're trying to suggest what might go well with them.

Sure, some people find the hybrids very attractive, and so you have the man-made ones. But know that a lot of fish died, a LOT of fish died in the "making" of that fish you have. Line breeders aren't growing out and keeping the fish who are "culled.

Again, trying to be as positive as I can here, "letting nature take it's course" i.e. having the fry get eaten by larger fish in my opinion is a lot less "humane" than euthanizing or what ever nice term you want to use for killing. I've had one batch of hybrid fry in my early days of fish keeping due to improper housing of fish and have since learned from that mistake. I definitely agree that you should take measures to insure you're not producing hybrids. But I also feel very strongly that if you do, you should not put those fish into the market. If that means you keep them alive for their full lives in your tanks more power to you, but if you aren't willing to do that, in my opinion it is your responsibility to give them a peaceful transition back to dust.


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

And that is your opinion and as an American i stand by your right to have that opinion. I just don't myself believe in killing fish that I am keeping as a pet. I've talked to several breeders (not a guy breeding in his basement, professional breeders) and they have almost all said that they don't kill hybrids, they sell them in their "assorted cichlids" mixes, which is why i refuse too purchase fish at petsmart haha. I've also talked to several breeders who breed hybrid peacocks on purpose. And whether or not the are stable and reproducible, they are very nice and sell very well. For all male tanks, i don't have a problem with hybrids, but i will absolutely not put one in my breeding tanks. Which is why i don't breed hybrids because i couldn't bare to have to kill off the females. But even then if a breeder accepted them knowing that they're hybrids, and orders fish knowing that they are hybrids, that's their problem. And they are the ones flooding the market with hybrids, not the small time breeder who may accidentally have one batch of hybrids.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Early in my fish hobby, I have euthanized some hybrid adults because I did not have another tank to separate them and house them for 8 years to prevent them from intrbreeding with the pure fish.

Since then because I wish to avoid euthanizing, I stock fish unlikely to hybridize.

I would never sell or donate a hybrid, even with full disclosure.


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## lilscoots (Mar 13, 2012)

DJRansome said:


> Early in my fish hobby, I have euthanized some hybrid adults because I did not have another tank to separate them and house them for 8 years to prevent them from intrbreeding with the pure fish.
> 
> Since then because I wish to avoid euthanizing, I stock fish unlikely to hybridize.
> 
> I would never sell or donate a hybrid, even with full disclosure.


I only wish more people felt this way. I also do not like killing fish.

We're in agreement on most things it seems except whether or not to kill. The breeders aren't going to kill them as they are worth money, people buy them...I more wish people would stop buying them. Remove the demand. I have two hybrids who were sold to me as fry as pure in my all male tank. They are most of the reason I feel so strongly about this. I'd prefer people took care of their hybrid fry, took measures to ensure they don't have them, and for sure don't distribute them.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

> if you do end up with hybrid fry, there is, IN MY OPINION, no reason donating them to the local fish store, as long as you tell them that the fry are hybrids, should be frowned upon. any fish store with an "assorted african cichlids" tank sells hybrids and there is a good chance that the fish in that tank are indeed hybrids. you could also leave the fry in your tank. let nature take its course and see how many survive and what they look like as they grow. many stores intentionally breed hybrids because some of these fish are absolutely beautiful. keeping in mind that ANY OB FISH IS A HYBRID, and they are extremely popular. you may end up with a beautiful fish.


I disagree with this - and it's part the fault of the breeder, part the fault of the fish store, and part the fault of uninformed hobbyists who buys the fish from the "assorted africans" tank. Let me explain. A tank labeled as "assorted africans" is intentionally misleading as it makes no mention that most of the fish inside it are hybrids. First time buyers expect that the tank contains an assortment of pure species because many uninformed hobbyists don't even know that different species of mouthbrooders _can_ hybridize. This has to do with how the word assortment or assorted is commonly used in other contexts. For example, if you order a "fruit assortment," what you expect to get is a basket with some apples, some oranges, some strawberries, etc. You would probably be very surprised and perhaps feel ripped off if you received a bunch of unrecognizable hybrid fruits that you are not familiar with.

There is a theoretical scenario in which breeding and distributing hybrid fish could be ok in my opinion, and this is with full disclosure. If you could be sure that the fish store or hobbyist that you sold your Labidochromis Caeruleus x Pseudotropheus Socolofi hybrids to (for example) would label the fish in their store in a solo tank as "Labidochromis Caeruleus x Pseudotropheus Socolofi hybrids" AND you could be sure that all stores and hobbyists that these fish and offspring of these fish trickle down to would do the same, then that's fine by me. However, this is not commonly done. 99% of LFS that accept hybrid fish put them into their "assorted africans" tank and sell them for cheap. And this probably has to do with the fact that if they labeled the tank as "assorted hybrids" they would sell far fewer of them.


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

i dont believe the the big breeders ever will stop producing hybrids, as much as i wish they would so that i could go to my lfs and get fish without having to worry about them being hybrids.............. i now drive from Philadelphia to Virginia to get quality fish. i drove all the way to house of tropicals in glen bernie maryland and then to that fish place in york pa. wasnt happy with the selection at either. after the holidays im going to make my first online order. i know a lot of people swear by it but i like to see what im getting beforehand. either way, i cant do anything untill i pick up a few more tanks.


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## Darkskies (Mar 17, 2012)

ilm121209 said:


> i dont believe the the big breeders ever will stop producing hybrids, as much as i wish they would so that i could go to my lfs and get fish without having to worry about them being hybrids.............. i now drive from Philadelphia to Virginia to get quality fish. i drove all the way to house of tropicals in glen bernie maryland and then to that fish place in york pa. wasnt happy with the selection at either. after the holidays im going to make my first online order. i know a lot of people swear by it but i like to see what im getting beforehand. either way, i cant do anything untill i pick up a few more tanks.


Since you're in the Philadelphia area, what do you think of the Aquarium Center in Blackwood, NJ?


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## ilm121209 (Jul 23, 2013)

Darkskies said:


> ilm121209 said:
> 
> 
> > i dont believe the the big breeders ever will stop producing hybrids, as much as i wish they would so that i could go to my lfs and get fish without having to worry about them being hybrids.............. i now drive from Philadelphia to Virginia to get quality fish. i drove all the way to house of tropicals in glen bernie maryland and then to that fish place in york pa. wasnt happy with the selection at either. after the holidays im going to make my first online order. i know a lot of people swear by it but i like to see what im getting beforehand. either way, i cant do anything untill i pick up a few more tanks.
> ...


Sorry i haven't responded. They're okay but I've decided to do online ordering or drive down to kgtropicals because i know the get really nice fish.


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