# Glenn's Tank Thread



## GlennLever

This is my second thread on this forum.

I received excellent help when I posted about the Snail Infestation I have been fighting after a purchase from a pet store.

I thought I would show my tank to you guys, and continue to use this thread for it's evolution.

At some point I would like to double the size with a second identical tank. This would mean a new location and stand.

I would also like help in identifying the fish I have in this tank, so here goes (this page is also on my web site and this link http://www.lever-family-racing.com/fish-tank-2016-07-02)

I have kept a Fish Tank since I was 16 with few periods of time where I did not have one.

The best setup I ever had was two tall 55 gallon tanks side by side which gave me a wall 8 feet long of Fish Tank.

Currently, I have one 110 gallon high tank. I like the dimensions of the tank. It is 31 inches high, 48 inches long, and 18 inches wide. The 31 inch height is just low enough where I can reach the inside back corner without having to put my shoulder in the tank. The 18 inches wide is wide enough where you can stack stuff in the tank and still have some empty space at the front of the tank. The 48 inches long, well it would be nice if it was 96 inches long, maybe someday.

This is my first attempt to take some close up pictures and it is not as easy as it might seem; the camera wants to focus on the glass, the fish are never still, reflections of both the flash and other stuff in the room are a pain, including windows.

How many fish do I have in the tank? To tell the true I do not know. I have a lot. African Cichlids are known to be aggressive if they establish territories. There are several ways to combat this problem. Some reading I did said that if you over populate African Cichlids, they will tolerate themselves better and that seems to be true. They still chase each other and establish territories and I still get babies once in a while.

Pet store rant:
Recently, I picked up an infestation of Trumpet Snails from a purchase at a pet store. I have tried many things to get rid of them and have had to settle with controlling the population. I tried traps (a small Tupperware box with holes drill in it and lettuce inside) with some success, Assassin Snails ( amazingly, the Clown Loaches leave these guys alone and they seem to have little effect on the Trumpet snails), and Clown Loaches. The Clown Loaches do not seem interested in either the Trumpet snails or the Assassin Snails. They do love the occasional piece of Zucchini that I put in the tank.

I have two opinions on pet stores, one is THEY ARE TERRIBLE, and two, they are putting themselves out of the fish business with the quality of knowledge they show about the care and maintenance of fish.

Some day I want to try ordering some fish online and see how that works.

So this is the tank. I have always regarded it as a living moving picture. I calms me down when I sit and look at it. There is plenty of activity. I like the colors of salt water, but do not want the work to maintain it. I have found that African Cichlids is a nice compromise, they have some nice color and have good personalities.

It may look empty, but I assure you it is not.










I have never paid much attention to names. When I'm in a pet store, if I see something I like, I purchase them.

In my old age, I am finding that I would like to know the names of these fish so if you can help out please do.

The fish in the tank range in sizes from 2 to 6 inches in length

I really like the colors in this fish, I believe it is the fish that I like the most. Not knowing the name I have made several attempts at purchasing more, but have ended up with some look a likes, but not the same fish, at least I do not think so.










In this picture there are three, below are some close ups of the "different fish that look the same"




























There are two different fish in this shot, the one sticking his nose out of the rocks is very colorful but tends to hide a lot. The one in the mid-range also has good color, and course there is a Clown Loach.










Tank 2016 07 02 DSC_0035-Here is another shot of the fish that was in the mid-range of the last picture.










I have no idea what this fish is but liked its shape










What follows are more shots of different fish that I would like help in identifying.










This is a poor shot, the rear tail is not fanned out, but this is another fish that hides a lot so I took what I could get










More shots of fish whose names I do not know










I like the coloration in this fish but have been told that as they mature, they will change color and develop a vertical white strip










Believe it of not there are other species of fish in this tank


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## james1983

The orange/white blotchy fish looks like an albino o.b. zebra, the other albino is probably a albino red top zebra, the solid yellow fish looks like a yellow lab/red zebra mix.


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## tanker3

I'll try to help. Nice, but 31" is a really tall tank, but I still like the set-up.

The first fish is an Albino Zebra (Metriaclima species), but now sure of which zebra. Looks like an Albino Metriaclima Estherae (Red Zebra), but I could be wrong.
The 3rd picture is another Albino but could be Metriaclima Estherae, but maybe Metriaclima Greshakei. Cannot tell when they are albinos.
Picture 4 "I think" is a female Metriaclima Msobo.
Picture 5 (from front to back) a Clown Loach, Looks like a male Metriaclima Msobo, and a Peacock in the back (I do not know my Peacocks). 
Picture 6, is what looks like the male Metriaclima Msobo.
Picture 7--I have no idea. A female something.
Picture 8 is another Zebra. A Cobalt Blue? Metriaclima estherae?
Picture (--?? No Idea.
Picture 10---See above.
Picyure 11, is a Tropheus Spcies from Lake Tanganyika.


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## GlennLever

So....

The first fish is an Albino Zebra (Metriaclima species), but now sure of which zebra. Looks like an Albino Metriaclima Estherae (Red Zebra), but I could be wrong.










The 3rd picture is another Albino but could be Metriaclima Estherae, but maybe Metriaclima Greshakei. Cannot tell when they are albinos.










Picture 4 "I think" is a female Metriaclima Msobo.










Picture 5 (from front to back) a Clown Loach, Looks like a male Metriaclima Msobo, and a Peacock in the back (I do not know my Peacocks). 
The Clown Loach is the only one that I could identify.










Picture 6, is what looks like the male Metriaclima Msobo.










Picture 7--I have no idea. A female something.










Picture 8 is another Zebra. A Cobalt Blue? Metriaclima estherae?










Picture (--?? No Idea. Sold to me as a Cichlid, do you think it is not?










Picture 10---See above. Forground is a male Metriaclima Msobo? Background is a female Metriaclima Msobo?










Picyure 11, is a Tropheus Spcies from Lake Tanganyika.










I believe all but the last are from Lake Malawi, I have read that you should not mix the lakes, I have had no problems yet?

How do you tell Males from Females?


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## tanker3

Picture # 9 is a cichlid, just do not know what kind of cichlid.
# 10-- Front "B;ue" fish is a male Met. Msobo, the back fish is an Albibo (I think Metriaclima). A Female Msobo is on picture # 4.


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## DJRansome

No idea: my bet is a Tanganyikan. Maybe frontosa, maybe tret. Doesn't look happy.


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## GlennLever

So questions
1) I believe all the fish I have except the one below are from Lake Malawi, correct?










2) I have read that you should not mix the lakes, I have had no problems yet, will I have in the future?

3) How do you tell Males from Females?

4) I have now taken better pictures of this fish, should I post "what is it" over on Unidentified Cichlids?










5) DJRansome I believe yo might be able to tell me what this is.




























Working on better pictures of fish, this one off "another Zebra. A Cobalt Blue? Metriaclima estherae?"










I'm confused (does not take much) on this

a) "the back fish is an Albibo (I think Metriaclima)"
b) "a Tropheus Spcies from Lake Tanganyika."


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## DJRansome

I think #4 is a Tang...tret or frontosa. And he does not look happy. What were all these fish sold to you as? I would expect problems in the future...yes.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> I think #4 is a Tang...tret or frontosa. And he does not look happy. What were all these fish sold to you as? I would expect problems in the future...yes.


I purchased these fish piece meal and never paid any attention to who what where, or when.

I am not following the answers I am getting, so it may be best to ask one at a time.

From your avatar I think you can supply me with this answer, what is this fish, it seems to thrive in my tank and seems to be in second in command in the tank










Actually do have a second question that I think I can pose without confusion.

In the summer time I have always keep the house cool in the summer, but as I am getting older I have found I am liking the warmth a little more.

The consequence of that is I am the tank temperatures are climbing.

Tonight I found it a 81 (was a hot day today).

Is there such a thing as a chiller? If so a good brand? I have always keep the tank temperature at 78.


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## Richard M

GlennLever said:


>


I reckon that's a Pindani - Pseudotropheus socolofi - http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... php?id=919


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## DJRansome

There are chillers for aquaria...they are expensive to run.

Socolofi is an elongated fish...that makes me think more of callainos...one of the Metriaclima.


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## GlennLever

We moved a year and a half ago.

We are settled in enough to think about putting the fish tank back together.

Only other time I have been with out a tank this long was when I was in the military.

I have always used (2) two Magnaflow filters and and under gravel filter.

The new setup will be right next to the kitchen table..

Without sacrificing function what filter would you recommend?


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## shiftyfox

Tropheus duboisi - White-Spotted Cichlid


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## GlennLever

Well I have used Marineland filters for a long time and have decided to stay with them.

Just ordered two Magniflow 360 gph filters.

Now I need to find a replacement air pump, any suggestions (110 gal high tank)


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## DJRansome

Why do you need an air pump?


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> Why do you need an air pump?


For the air stones in the riser tubes of the under gravel filter.

I have found in the past the pumps do not like the depth of the 110 high tank.


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## DJRansome

Oh I did not know you planned to use an under gravel filter again.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> Oh I did not know you planned to use an under gravel filter again.


It has worked well for me in the past.


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## chazeltine

Hey Glenn, You had some really pretty fish in the beginning of this thread, Did you rehome them when you moved?

The magniflows are a solid canister, I used one of a 29 gallon shellie tank once with good success.

From the looks of your tank years ago it appears you had a mix on fish from different regions of Africa, and some did not look to be doing well in your old tank (Clamped fins, lack of coloration, etc)

While maybe your tank did work, I find carefully selected species only tanks to be a lot more enjoyable to watch as you'll run into minimal aggression and a very active community. For a four foot tank I think you could do up to five breeding colonies of Mbunas. Something like this

1 male and 4 females of Chindongo Saulosi
1 male and 4 females of Psuedotropheous Acei
1 male and 4 females of Cynotilapia Afra
1 male and 4 females of Labidochromis caeruleus
1 male and 4 females of Labeotropheus trewavasae

This stocking will give you n array of color as well as really interesting breeding behavior, If you wanted some bottom dwellers a small school of Syndontis Petricola would be a good addition.

I prefer sand for African Cichlids due to the way they like to interact with their substrate, your rockwork looked really good in the earlier pictures as well.

I would perform a leak test on your tank if it has sat dry, maybe even do a reseal anyways for good measure. All of this can be questioned and debated by yourself and other hobbyists on the forum, just thought I would offer my $0.02.


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## GlennLever

chazeltine said:


> Hey Glenn, You had some really pretty fish in the beginning of this thread, Did you rehome them when you moved?
> 
> The magniflows are a solid canister, I used one of a 29 gallon shellie tank once with good success.
> 
> From the looks of your tank years ago it appears you had a mix on fish from different regions of Africa, and some did not look to be doing well in your old tank (Clamped fins, lack of coloration, etc)
> 
> While maybe your tank did work, I find carefully selected species only tanks to be a lot more enjoyable to watch as you'll run into minimal aggression and a very active community. For a four foot tank I think you could do up to five breeding colonies of Mbunas. Something like this
> 
> 1 male and 4 females of Chindongo Saulosi
> 1 male and 4 females of Psuedotropheous Acei
> 1 male and 4 females of Cynotilapia Afra
> 1 male and 4 females of Labidochromis caeruleus
> 1 male and 4 females of Labeotropheus trewavasae
> 
> This stocking will give you n array of color as well as really interesting breeding behavior, If you wanted some bottom dwellers a small school of Syndontis Petricola would be a good addition.
> 
> I prefer sand for African Cichlids due to the way they like to interact with their substrate, your rockwork looked really good in the earlier pictures as well.
> 
> I would perform a leak test on your tank if it has sat dry, maybe even do a reseal anyways for good measure. All of this can be questioned and debated by yourself and other hobbyists on the forum, just thought I would offer my $0.02.


Thanks, this was kind of the reply I was looking for. I will do a leak test. The tank has not left the stand (even in the move)

Yes the fish found new homes. I put an ad in the local craigs list for free fish and I had to beat them off.

I have had the old stye Marineland canister filters for years and was surprised when I went to buy new ones they do not exist any more. My only concern with the new filters is their height, the door is 20 inches and they say the 360 is 18 inches height.

Marineland lists Magiflow and "c" series as different canisters, does anyone know the difference?


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## DJRansome

For a different thought on stocking I like 4 species in a 48x18 tank. I would eliminate the afra (now known as zebroides) since they are blue barred fish like the saulosi, and the saulosi have colorful females.

I would also do 7 females for the labeotropheus as they can be more aggressive than the others.

I have no experience with any of the hardware you are discussing.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> For a different thought on stocking I like 4 species in a 48x18 tank. I would eliminate the afra (now known as zebroides) since they are blue barred fish like the saulosi, and the saulosi have colorful females.
> 
> I would also do 7 females for the labeotropheus as they can be more aggressive than the others.
> 
> I have no experience with any of the hardware you are discussing.


Thanks for your reply, I have valued your input in the past.


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## GlennLever

Tank is 31 inches high, 18 inches deep , and 48 inches wide.

I have lots of rocks and plants(plastic).


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## GlennLever

I was just thinking about the tank and a wet test.

I purchased the tank new as close as I can figure the tank is 20 years old.

I looked it over carefully and found no nick in the corners or cracks.

What I did find was slight fogging of the silicone 1/2 way through one seam within the top edge of the tank holding the glass together. 
The glass in this tank was custom ordered in 1/2 thickness

The silicone seal seam adhered and pliable.

This is the first period in it's life it has sat empty, and while empty it is sitting in the spot it will end up in.

Four post jacks arrived from Amazon today. We live in a home built in 1936 with a side entrance. That entrance wall in every older home with the side entrance has sagged.

The floor itself is flat and level and the post will go in each corner below the tank in the basement.

NO jacking, just support.

SO.......

What do I do with the tank, the fact that I am asking kind of gives me the answer. A new custom MarineLand 1/2 thick glass in Oak is not cheap.


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## GlennLever

I talked with the Pet Shop where I purchased the tank and described my concerns and was told , do a wet test, things should be fine.

I called Marineland, first person I got was useless. I tried a second time and got an excellent, knowledgeable about their products, customer service representative.

She listened to my concerns, and the way the tank has lived over the last 20 years and said it could last indefinitely or leak tomorrow. She bet based on description and life she believes it will be fine (do a wet test).

Also got an explanation on the Marineland "C" series and the magiflow series (Magiflow followed the "C" series with modifications to the gasket, hose attachment, and quick release lock).

Four post jacks arrived yesterday to go in the basement under the four corners of the aquarium. No lifting, just supporting.

So ....

Need to put up the posts.

Need to wet test (fill a couple of inches at a time and let stand for a week).


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## Deeda

Thanks for the update on your tank concerns being answered by service rep and the difference between the filter names.


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## GlennLever

I made a small YouTube video which covers
1) How I straighten Flexible Tubing
2) Post jacks in the basement to carry the weight of the tank
3) Start of my wet test on a 30 year old tank


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## GlennLever

Well third day into a wet test and I can see that the milkiness in the seam is spreading.

It was just in the upper right corner of the tank at the start, and now has spread through the whole length of the seam.

I have drained the tank.

Only tank name I know is Marineland, mine, which was custom built with extra thick glass and a wood trim rings.

I think the closest I will get is a black trim 110 high (48 X 30 X 18).

What names should I look for?


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## DJRansome

Aqueon!


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> Aqueon!


That is my second encounter with that name.

I will do something tomorrow (stores are not open on Monday) to get a tank on the way
I have a quote for a Marinland at 425


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## DJRansome

I would expect the Aqueon to cost more and I would pay it.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> I would expect the Aqueon to cost more and I would pay it.


Thanks for your input, this is a long term investment, at the size of the tank, the differences in cost are not important.

Why Aqueon?


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## GlennLever

Just looked them up, looks like they do not have the 110 high tank (30 x 18 x 48), I will call tomorrow.


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## Deeda

Is there any particular reason you want to stay with a tank of those dimensions?


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## GlennLever

Deeda said:


> Is there any particular reason you want to stay with a tank of those dimensions?


It is what I have now. I love the height of it, and I do not have 8 feet of linear space.

Purchasing the tank was a disappointing experience.

Called seven different local fish stores and got essentially the same answer. they would have to call back. Even the store I have been dealing with for 30 years and where I purchased the first tank. I never received a call back from one of the stores!

Gave up and went out and purchased a 110 high Marinland which should be in on Monday, then have to get it from the store to the house.


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## Deeda

I understand what you are saying about liking a certain dimensions tank!

Sorry to hear you didn't get call backs from local stores but will be getting what you want next week.


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## GlennLever

Deeda said:


> I understand what you are saying about liking a certain dimensions tank!
> 
> Sorry to hear you didn't get call backs from local stores but will be getting what you want next week.


Yep, Yep.

I will turn the stand upside down this weekend and do wiring (power strip with pilot lights and individual switches for the filters, air pump, light and heater


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## GlennLever

So...I have not started a tank from scratch in over 20 years. New tank is supposed to be here Monday.

I have been reading on Bio-Spira.

from what I read it starts the bacteria in the filter.

More reading and it seems that once you use it they want you to continue to douse the tank.

More reading and what I found is some of them are using a bacteria that is different from nature. that it is aggressive and kills the natural bacteria and that is why you have to continue to dose to resupply the filter.

The Tetra product seem different in that you dose once, and then they suggest after a filter change or water change to dose again (weekly water changes would suggest you are dosing all the time)

Is this a good road to follow? Suggestions.


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## Deeda

Glenn, I have mostly done a fish-less cycle using ammonia as I was not in a hurry to add fish, check out that link in my signature. I have also used Start Smart Complete for very lightly stocked tanks with good results.

Do you already have a cycled filter or media?


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## GlennLever

Deeda said:


> Glenn, I have mostly done a fish-less cycle using ammonia as I was not in a hurry to add fish, check out that link in my signature. I have also used Start Smart Complete for very lightly stocked tanks with good results.
> 
> Do you already have a cycled filter or media?


That is my problem, We moved to the country (closest neighbor is 1/2 mile away).

Normally I run two filters for just this reason.

Tank has been idle (now new) for 1 1/2 years. I have no Bacteria to start a filter.


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## Deeda

Nice to hear of distance from the neighbor's place. I'm semi-rural so most of us are on 5 acre lots with private wells.

Are you in a hurry to get your fish? I think that will be your deciding factor on how you choose to go forward.

There are some bottled bacteria products that many people do use but you have to follow the instructions for best results. Check out Dr. Tim's One and Only and Fritz Aquatics has a couple products for cycling, one is Turbo Start 700 which is a refrigerated product and the other is Monster 360. I've not used these products but you could get more info from their websites.

As far as needing to continue any of the various products indefinitely, that may just be marketing to get you to continue to buy their products. IMO, once the tank is cycled and the filter is mature, there is no need to maintain these products.


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## GlennLever

Deeda said:


> Nice to hear of distance from the neighbor's place. I'm semi-rural so most of us are on 5 acre lots with private wells.
> 
> Are you in a hurry to get your fish? I think that will be your deciding factor on how you choose to go forward.
> 
> There are some bottled bacteria products that many people do use but you have to follow the instructions for best results. Check out Dr. Tim's One and Only and Fritz Aquatics has a couple products for cycling, one is Turbo Start 700 which is a refrigerated product and the other is Monster 360. I've not used these products but you could get more info from their websites.
> 
> As far as needing to continue any of the various products indefinitely, that may just be marketing to get you to continue to buy their products. IMO, once the tank is cycled and the filter is mature, there is no need to maintain these products.


Everyone is in a hurry to get fish. I have waited this long so I can wait a little longer.

If I can shorten wait successfully I would do it.

Some of these methods are not so instant.

Dr. Tim's seems to be two parts, one is the complete, the other is ammonia chloride. Add the complete, add ammonia chloride wait a day and test, no ammonia, but some nitrates add ammonia again, wait a day test again, if no ammonia or nitrite then add ammonia again for the third time. Looking for 0 ammonia and nitrites, then filter is cycled.

TurboStart® cycles aquariums in five days or less, Chlorine and chloramines are lethal to FritzZyme® TurboStart® bacteria.
MONSTER 360 is a probiotic blend of naturally occurring, environmentally friendly, live heterotrophic bacteria capable of digesting organic sludge common in aquariums (seems not to be for "quick start"?)

The Marineland Bio-Spira wants you to add their bacteria and then 10 fish under 1 inch (to produce ammonia?) to 15 gals.

I think I might do both and when the number are right add fish???????? (both = time and bacteria in a bottle

Thoughts?


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## Deeda

OOPS you are correct about the Fritz Aquatics Monster 360, I posted the wrong product from my quick notes. They have 2 nitrifying bacteria products, FritzZyme 7 and FritzZyme TurboStart 700.

Choose one method to cycle, either the approx. 6 week fish-less cycle per the Library article or one of the bottled bacteria products. Combining the two methods would be counter productive as I've seen from posts on some forums. Most bottled bacteria products recommend treating chlorine/chloramine water before using the product.

I haven't mentioned it before but be sure to buy a testing kit, I'm partial to the API Master test kit as it has everything except GH (hardness) and KH (alkalinity).


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## DJRansome

I have not read about a currently available product that gives a total cycle for a full load of fish from day one without ammonia or nitrite.

So while it might shorten the cycle a week or two...your fish will usually have to tolerate at least low amounts of toxins to achieve the goal.

I prefer not to use manufactured products...plain ammonia and six weeks is good for me.


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## GlennLever

Deeda said:


> OOPS you are correct about the Fritz Aquatics Monster 360, I posted the wrong product from my quick notes. They have 2 nitrifying bacteria products, FritzZyme 7 and FritzZyme TurboStart 700.
> 
> Choose one method to cycle, either the approx. 6 week fish-less cycle per the Library article or one of the bottled bacteria products. Combining the two methods would be counter productive as I've seen from posts on some forums. Most bottled bacteria products recommend treating chlorine/chloramine water before using the product.
> 
> I haven't mentioned it before but be sure to buy a testing kit, I'm partial to the API Master test kit as it has everything except GH (hardness) and KH (alkalinity).


Ok, I do have the API test kit. I think I'm going with Dr. Tim, see below.



DJRansome said:


> I have not read about a currently available product that gives a total cycle for a full load of fish from day one without ammonia or nitrite.
> 
> So while it might shorten the cycle a week or two...your fish will usually have to tolerate at least low amounts of toxins to achieve the goal.
> 
> I prefer not to use manufactured products...plain ammonia and six weeks is good for me.


I believe I will try Dr. Tim's fish-less method........seems to be two parts, one is the complete, the other is ammonia chloride. Add the complete, add ammonia chloride wait a day and test, no ammonia, but some nitrates add ammonia again, wait a day test again, if no ammonia or nitrite then add ammonia again for the third time. Looking for 0 ammonia and nitrites, then filter is cycled.

Been on YouTube this afternoon and watched a number of his videos. He talks about two different environments for the bacteria, one high in ammonia and one for low concentrations. Thoughts on that "true or marketing ploy".

Thanks for your responses.

Is putting Clown Loachs (8) in as starter fish a sin? I know they get large and lose their color, I have had good luck with gifting them in craiglist. I have had African Cichlids and Clown loachs together before


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## Deeda

Dr. Tim was the one who originally created the Bio-Spira that is now sold by Marineland and when he left there created his new product. I don't have enough knowledge to comment on the different ammonia concentrations for bacteria.

I've not kept Clown Loaches before so no suggestions.


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## DJRansome

When Dr. Tim owned the company he shipped refrigerated bacteria...that worked.

Since then the new owners do not refrigerate the product and it does not work as well.

I think the question might have been is fish-in cycle with clown loaches a sin in the industry. It is to the clown loaches. :thumb:


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> When Dr. Tim owned the company he shipped refrigerated bacteria...that worked.
> 
> Since then the new owners do not refrigerate the product and it does not work as well.
> 
> I think the question might have been is fish-in cycle with clown loaches a sin in the industry. It is to the clown loaches. :thumb:


I would wait to put the Clown Loachs in until after following his "fish-less" method.


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## DJRansome

I did research them long ago for a possible add to my tank and also to answer Member questions. It still seems like the clown loaches would be happier in a tank more suited to their requirements. Especially if they only get to stay while they are small.

Why not Synodontis multipunctatus?


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> I did research them long ago for a possible add to my tank and also to answer Member questions. It still seems like the clown loaches would be happier in a tank more suited to their requirements. Especially if they only get to stay while they are small.
> 
> Why not Synodontis multipunctatus?


Just noticed this on this forum "No stocking discussions here. " Should I start a new thread else where? would rather not.

I see that Synodontis multipunctatus comes from Tanganyika.

My old method of keeping my aquarium was water changes, filter maintenance and that was it. (I had some pretty nice tanks)

The idea of testing and watching what you put in is new to me.

Been reading a lot and one thing I came across is the suggestion not to mix the lakes, also It is a brood parasite upon mouth brooding cichlids not that I intend to breed, and it gets to be a big fish???


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## fishboy75

I definitely wouldn't add the clown loaches as the first fish. They are pretty sensitive and prone to getting ick. I have kept clown loaches with my Africans without problems and also with Syno Multipunctatus but my tank is 7 feet long. I wouldn't keep clowns in a tank less than 6 feet long personally as they are very active nnd put on quite a lot of body mass as they get older. If you are going to put them in after your tank has been established, make sure you quarantine them for at least 3 weeks. I find it very rare to add clown loaches and NOT get ick. Good luck.


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## GlennLever

fishboy75 said:


> I definitely wouldn't add the clown loaches as the first fish. They are pretty sensitive and prone to getting ick. I have kept clown loaches with my Africans without problems and also with Syno Multipunctatus but my tank is 7 feet long. I wouldn't keep clowns in a tank less than 6 feet long personally as they are very active nnd put on quite a lot of body mass as they get older. If you are going to put them in after your tank has been established, make sure you quarantine them for at least 3 weeks. I find it very rare to add clown loaches and NOT get ick. Good luck.


I had forgotten about how separable they are to ick. I do believe if I raised the temperature that would help.

My tank is only 4 feet long, but 30 inches high, so i'll put them on hold.


----------



## DJRansome

The no mixing lakes guideline applies to the cichlids...not the Synodontis.

I have had multipunctatus for 15 years...they do parasite spawn but the fish are also able to spawn in spite of that. Mine have spawned once and it was so exciting.

They are way smaller than the loaches and MAYBE 8 inches long but sleek and absolutely not a problem in a 48" tank. Or go Synodontis lucipinnis...smaller and no parasite brooding. Also not as good at fry patrol.


----------



## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> The no mixing lakes guideline applies to the cichlids...not the Synodontis.
> 
> I have had multipunctatus for 15 years...they do parasite spawn but the fish are also able to spawn in spite of that. Mine have spawned once and it was so exciting.
> 
> They are way smaller than the loaches and MAYBE 8 inches long but sleek and absolutely not a problem in a 48" tank. Or go Synodontis lucipinnis...smaller and no parasite brooding. Also not as good at fry patrol.


Did some reading on Synodontis lucipinnis.


----------



## GlennLever

Worried about PH

n the wild, the species is endemic to Lake Tanganyika, which has an observed temperature range of 22 to 26 °C (72 to 79 °F), an approximate* pH of 8.5 - 9*, and dH range of 4-15.[6][2] The exact habitat is unknown, but like other small species of Syndontis, it probably inhabits fairly shallow, rocky coastal areas.[1] The reproductive habits of most of the species of Synodontis are not known, beyond some instances of obtaining egg counts from gravid females.[1] Spawning likely occurs during the flooding season between July and October, and pairs swim in unison during spawning.[7] As a whole, species of Synodontis are omnivores, consuming insect larvae, algae, gastropods, bivalves, sponges, crustaceans, and the eggs of other fishes.[1] The growth rate is rapid in the first year, then slows down as the fish age.[5]


----------



## DJRansome

If your tap water is 7.8 or higher you will be fine.

If not it will also be a concern for other African Rift Lake cichlids.


----------



## GlennLever

This is the second video in a series on setting up my old fish tank.

That aquarium did not pass the wet test in the first video, leaving me with no other option (could have taken it apart and resealed) but to purchase a new aquarium.

The only real problem is one of the new filters leaks. I have another one on the way.


----------



## GlennLever

I had a bacteria bloom this morning but it is now clearing up.

I did have one small package of the Marineland Bio-Spira that I throw in.

I have not done a water test, but that is coming. I was really surprised by the cloudiness of the tank this morning.


----------



## Deeda

Nice video Glenn!! I like the job you did adding the oak cladding to the original metal stand, very clean and looks nice.

Sorry to hear the one canister filter had a leak, hopefully you'll be able to return it for a refund or replacement. I also had one of the old Marineland Magnum 350 canister filters and it was my first canister filter and while it worked great for a couple years, eventually I replaced it with an Eheim canister filter that was larger.

I do like the look of the black silicone on the new tank, how are you liking it?


----------



## GlennLever

Deeda said:


> Nice video Glenn!! I like the job you did adding the oak cladding to the original metal stand, very clean and looks nice.
> 
> Sorry to hear the one canister filter had a leak, hopefully you'll be able to return it for a refund or replacement. I also had one of the old Marineland Magnum 350 canister filters and it was my first canister filter and while it worked great for a couple years, eventually I replaced it with an Eheim canister filter that was larger.
> 
> I do like the look of the black silicone on the new tank, how are you liking it?


I was surprised by the black silicone. I like it, helps the black trim on the top an bottom of the tank.

Amazon let me down on the Dr. Tim's treatments, they have yet to arrive. On the other hand they are sending a replacement for the leaking filter.

Now all I have to do is dry out the bad filter, box it , and send it back.

I have not gotten to any water testing yet, hope to find the time this evening (want to make a spread sheet of the values).

I looked at the Eheim filters, I was turned off by the tube that comes from the bottom of the filter.


----------



## GlennLever

I was surprised by the black silicone. I like it, helps the black trim on the top an bottom of the tank. However, the structural silicone was done in clear. What happens with the light on is any spot that does no have the black silicone covering the clear silicone, the light shins through the clear and appears as little dots at the seal of the tank (did you follow that?)


----------



## GlennLever

Just an update, The Dr. Tim's is now not due here until tomorrow (Amazon Prime has let me down).

The tank has cleared up.


----------



## GlennLever

I have started a discussion on the fish to go into this tank under Lake Malawi Species under the thread name "Glenn's Tank Thread"

https://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/vie ... 9&t=451405


----------



## GlennLever

I have starter the Dr Tim's fishless cycle.
values before starting PH 8.2 Ammonia .50PPM Nitrite 0 PPM Nitrare 0 PPM


----------



## GlennLever

GlennLever said:


> I have starter the Dr Tim's fishless cycle.
> values before starting PH 8.2 Ammonia .50PPM Nitrite 0 PPM Nitrare 0 PPM


I was surprised by the high PH, tested the water out of the tap and it came up as 8.0
That will be OK for cichlids and the Synodontis lucipinnis wants pH of 8.5 - 9
I could leave it alone or maybe add some driftwood to lower the ph?


----------



## DJRansome

Why would you lower the pH?


----------



## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> Why would you lower the pH?


Good question...knee jerk reaction to my surprise of the Ph out of the tap.

Maybe trying to give myself a reason to put some driftwood in.


----------



## GlennLever

African Cichlid water parameters???

PH 7.8 - 8.5

ammonia 0 - .25 PPM

Nitrite 0

Nitrate 5 - 10 ppm

GH 12 - 20 (I believe this is expressed in degrees?)

KH 10 - 18 (I believe this is expressed in degrees?)

Termp 73 - 82 (I believe they prefer warmer side of the range?)

Any other perimeter that I should be looking at, are all the ranges correct?


----------



## DJRansome

Ammonia should be zero. Nitrates 0 to 20ppm. I like to change 50% or more weekly and shoot for 10ppm after a water change so 20ppm before a water change.

I find GH and KH easier in drops...anything >= 7 drops should be fine. This just makes your pH stable.

Temp 78.


----------



## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> Ammonia should be zero. Nitrates 0 to 20ppm. I like to change 50% or more weekly and shoot for 10ppm after a water change so 20ppm before a water change.
> 
> I find GH and KH easier in drops...anything >= 7 drops should be fine. This just makes your pH stable.
> 
> Temp 78.


I have the API GH & KH test kit coming, they do it by change in color and counting drops.

I was going to keep the temp at 80, I have read that it prompts the fish metabolic rate and also produces more color and spawning activity?

Thanks for all your input, you must almost live here as I have gotten responses from you at all hours.

THANKS!


----------



## shiftyfox

Should I be concerned about Gh and Kh levels in my aquarium. 
It's something I've never given a thought to if I'm honest. My Ph has always been stable around 7.4 so not given it a second thought. 
Why would I need to match the lakes criteria when my fish have come from tank bred fish..?


----------



## DJRansome

If your pH is stable you are OK to ignore GH and KH.

Many keep their cichlids in water that approximates the lake. I do and my vendors do. So although they are tank bred, if they are acclimated to parameters appropriate for their species, you could shock them if you are not aware and put them in water with different parameters without acclimating.

Luckily my tap water is similar to the lake and I chose to keep Africans because of that.


----------



## GlennLever

Working on cycling the tank

Following Dr. Tim's instructions for a fishless cycle

Sometimes I think I could screw up bouncing a ball.

Day 1 - test water have 0 for Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate
Pour in Dr Tim One and only and Ammonium Chioride per the instructions 
Day 1 - dose ammonia to 2 ppm ammonia-nitrogen [NH3-N] using our ammonium chloride and it is not critical to get exactly 2 ppm
Day 2 - Measure ammonia and nitrite.
Day 3 - If ammonia and nitrite are below 1 ppm add more ammonia: four drops of our ammonium chloride per gallon

My Ammonia Day 1 12:00 PM .50 6:30 PM 3.0
Day 2 9:00 AM 4.0, 1:20 PM 5.0, 7:00PM 4.0
Day 3 11:32 AM 4.0 8:00 PM 4.0

There is a note about no letting the Ammonia get above 5.0

I had seen no increase in Nitrate, and they are talking about adding more ammonia??

I did three 20% water changes

Ammonia was still 4.0 after the first change, went to 3.0 after the second change and to 1.0 after the third change.

Questions
1)	Have I killed the bacteria in the bottle with too high a Ph? 
2)	Do I drain the water and start over?
3)	Have I damaged the filter material (bio balls and ceramic rings)


----------



## DJRansome

I would say no to all three questions, but I have never used this product. What does the manufacturer say? I have found manufacturers respond promptly with good information if you use their Contact Us feature.


----------



## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> I would say no to all three questions, but I have never used this product. What does the manufacturer say? I have found manufacturers respond promptly with good information if you use their Contact Us feature.


I have sent the question to Dr Tim's Aquatics web site 5/25/20 11:41AM.


----------



## GlennLever

Ok, here is an update.

No response from Dr. Tim's Aquatics.

I now have a hardness test.

Current values for the tank are:

Ph 8, Ammonia 2 PPM, Nitrite 0 PPM, Nitrate 0 PPM,

I have the GPI test kit for hardness

Gh change color at 8 drops? I have no scale is this hard or soft and what do we want?

The Kh test changes color at 5 drops, same problem with evaluating the test result.

The replacement filter arrives tomorrow.

The big news is I have found a source of established filter material! I will put it in the new filter.


----------



## DJRansome

Anything over 4 drops should be good. Keep an eye on your pH to be sure it is stable.


----------



## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> Anything over 4 drops should be good. Keep an eye on your pH to be sure it is stable.


Are the drops equal to degrees?

Ideal GH 12 - 20

ideal Kh 10 - 18

is Gh 8 Kh 5 soft, hard?


----------



## Deeda

The API GH and KH test instructions has a table on the instruction sheet that converts the number of reagent drops to PPM so you need to look at that table. I will assume that means that based on their conversion, one degree equals 17.9 ppm.

GH is water hardness and KH is water alkalinity. KH is the more important number as the higher the number, the more stable the pH.

What I like to do is take a sample of the tap (source) water, test the KH and pH, write the numbers down. Take another sample of the tap (source) water in a clean glass container and let it set out 24 hours. Test the KH and pH again, write the numbers down. Now compare if there is a difference. Hopefully the numbers stay the same, if not, you MAY need to boost (buffer) the KH a bit using either baking soda or some people add a calcium based chicken grit (cheap) or aragonite in a media bag to their filter. I would just wait before adding any buffer to alter the water.


----------



## GlennLever

Deeda said:


> The API GH and KH test instructions has a table on the instruction sheet that converts the number of reagent drops to PPM so you need to look at that table. I will assume that means that based on their conversion, one degree equals 17.9 ppm.
> 
> GH is water hardness and KH is water alkalinity. KH is the more important number as the higher the number, the more stable the pH.
> 
> What I like to do is take a sample of the tap (source) water, test the KH and pH, write the numbers down. Take another sample of the tap (source) water in a clean glass container and let it set out 24 hours. Test the KH and pH again, write the numbers down. Now compare if there is a difference. Hopefully the numbers stay the same, if not, you MAY need to boost (buffer) the KH a bit using either baking soda or some people add a calcium based chicken grit (cheap) or aragonite in a media bag to their filter. I would just wait before adding any buffer to alter the water.


Thank You.

The new filter arrived a day early, working on installing it (this is the second of two filters)

Found the Gh & Kh conversion chart

1 drop equals one degree which equals 17.9 ppm

So if I do the conversion I have 
GH 8 drops or degrees which conversion to 143.2 PPM but what does that mean?
KH 5 drops or degrees which conversion to 89.5 PPM but what does that mean?

I found this for GH
................................PPM...................Degrees
Moderately soft..............50-100..................3-6
slightly Hard..................100-200................6-12
moderately hard..............200-300................12-18
hard...........................300-450................18-25


----------



## Deeda

Check out the following Practical Water Chemistry from the C-F Library. Hope it answers some of your questions.


----------



## GlennLever

Deeda said:


> Check out the following Practical Water Chemistry from the C-F Library. Hope it answers some of your questions.


I have read through it. Why are there numbers in black diamonds mixed in with the text?

I have either just contaminated my fish tank with who knows what, or successful "seeded" my filters with filter material from a seasoned tank (one that I know about).

We will see what the ammonia is in the morning


----------



## GlennLever

Changes in numbers!

I tested the water after the used filter material was added.

The numbers are PH 8.0, Ammonia .25 PPM, Nitrite 1.0 ppm, Nitrate 5.0 ppm

Thoughts?


----------



## Deeda

In regards to the black diamonds mixed in the text in that article, I also noticed that and I think they are replacing commas, asterisks, degree signs and other non letter characters. It happened a few years ago when the forum was upgraded and we don't have anyone to fix the mistakes.

Congrats on the parameters changing!! The addition of the used filter material is probably why you are seeing nitrate in the results. Just continue testing daily at about the same time and I will assume you need to continue following the product directions.


----------



## GlennLever

9:00 AM numbers

PH 8.0, Ammonia .25, Nitrite 2.0, nitrate 5.0


----------



## Deeda

Looking good! I would ignore the nitrate reading for now until you see zero ammonia and zero nitrite. A lot of time nitrate starts to show before the others zero out.


----------



## GlennLever

Deeda said:


> Looking good! I would ignore the nitrate reading for now until you see zero ammonia and zero nitrite. A lot of time nitrate starts to show before the others zero out.


Agreed, and exactly what the detailed instructions say, except if the Nitrate gets to high then do a water change to bring it down.


----------



## GlennLever

Values

date and time......Day 8...........................day 9
PH...................8.0, 7.80, 8.0, 7.80............8
ammonia............25, 0.00, 0.00, 0.50..........0.0
nitrite...............5.0, 5.00, 0.50, 0.50..........3
nitrate...............2, 40.00,10.00, 20.00,......20.00

Notes
1) Participial water changes on the first, second, and fourth rearing day 8 because of high nitrite.
2) Ammonia added on the second and fourth reading of day 8 
3) This evening I will, depending on numbers, do a small water change and add ammonia again. Waiting for that 0.00 reading on nitrite


----------



## GlennLever

I am really getting impatient with this water, tired of looking at water, have some algae just starting.

Ammonia is being converted to Nitrite great, but the Nitrate does not seem to be getting converted to Nitrate, although the Nitrate levels do go up.

I am having to do water changes (30%) to keep the Nitrite below 5 PPM as instructed by Dr. Tim.

Dr.Tim has instructions for an 8 day cycle, I am into my 11th day and still cannot put 2 PPM ammonia into the tank one day and have the Ammonia and Nitrite below 0.2 PPM the next day.

I would have thought after adding the cycled filter material the filters would have cycled even faster than the 8 day cycle Dr. Tim has.

Oh well, just my thought for the day.


----------



## DJRansome

Try to remember anything less than six weeks is a bonus.


----------



## Deeda

Glenn, maybe try skipping the ammonia addition for a day or two as it really shouldn't hurt anything.


----------



## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> Try to remember anything less than six weeks is a bonus.


True, True.



Deeda said:


> Glenn, maybe try skipping the ammonia addition for a day or two as it really shouldn't hurt anything.


Will do.


----------



## GlennLever

Water values since the start.


----------



## shiftyfox

What happened on day 10 for Nitrite, (40ppm) is that a typo..?


----------



## Deeda

Glenn, it's a bit difficult for me to read your chart but I did notice some extremely high numbers for both nitrite and nitrate which seemed very odd numbers. I do know you have been doing water changes to keep those values lower.

Don't take this wrong but is it possible the test vials and caps were not thoroughly rinsed and allowed to air dry somewhat between testing days?


----------



## shiftyfox

Something that happened to me last year that gave me strange test results. 
As mentioned above, a good thorough rinse of both test tube and cap, I also tissue dry both, not had a problem since.


----------



## GlennLever

shiftyfox said:


> What happened on day 10 for Nitrite, (40ppm) is that a typo..?


That was the value and not a typo



Deeda said:


> Glenn, it's a bit difficult for me to read your chart but I did notice some extremely high numbers for both nitrite and nitrate which seemed very odd numbers. I do know you have been doing water changes to keep those values lower.
> 
> Don't take this wrong but is it possible the test vials and caps were not thoroughly rinsed and allowed to air dry somewhat between testing days?


The vials are washed and then before use are rinsed again (with the caps) in the tank.

Dr. Tim said the nitrite would spike which it did, but does not return to 0 in a days time after adding ammonia.

The Nitrate spike cam right after putting the used filter material into my canister filters.


----------



## shiftyfox

Just be patient, you'll get there. 
The reason I mentioned 40ppm is that my API test chart only goes up to 5ppm for Nitrite. 
In less your using a different system.


----------



## GlennLever

shiftyfox said:


> Just be patient, you'll get there.
> The reason I mentioned 40ppm is that my API test chart only goes up to 5ppm for Nitrite.
> In less your using a different system.


I am using both Tetra EasyStrips and the API test system. Your right, Nitrite in the API only goes to 5.0 PPM, the test strips go to 10 ppm .

So...the reported 40 ppm nitrite has to be an error.


----------



## GlennLever

This morning I added enough ammonia to bring the tank to 2 PPM

This is this evenings numbers ph 8, ammonia .25 ppm, Nitrate 5 PPM, Nitrate 30 PPM

As Nitrite is a 5 PPM, I will do a water change (30%)


----------



## GlennLever

Did the water change and these are the readings as I see them

Ph 8, Amminioa 0, Nitrite 2 ppm, Nitrate 30

see if you agree.


----------



## shiftyfox

Shouldn't be too long now and that nitrite tube will be pale blue. 
Daily small water changes worked for me, but follow your instructions.


----------



## GlennLever

this mornings test (9:45)

I read it as PH 8, Ammonia 0, Nitrite .50ppm, Nitrate 20ppm

No water changes or ammonia added since the last test, will add ammonia this evening.


----------



## Deeda

Glenn, I would skip the ammonia addition tonight and see how all the tests look tomorrow night. It will NOT impact the process of cycling. You are getting close!


----------



## GlennLever

Deeda said:


> Glenn, I would skip the ammonia addition tonight and see how all the tests look tomorrow night. It will NOT impact the process of cycling. You are getting close!


Will do.


----------



## GlennLever

This evenings readings.


----------



## GlennLever

This mornings test, where is the Nitrate going?

I added the equivalent of 2 PPM ammonia to the tank an will test this evening and tomorrow morning. Hoping for 0's again.


----------



## Deeda

Finally a nitrite drop to zero. :dancing:

I can't explain what is going on with the nitrate unless you erred doing the test? Did you happen to perform a water change?


----------



## Billy-the-fish

I followed the fishless cycle from this forum and it states if you have nitrite in your tank it can skew the nitrate reading. So an accurate nitrate reading is once your nitrite is at zero. If you add ammonia today and tomorrow your ammonia and nitrite is zero then your tank is cycled, you would just need to check your nitrate reading and do water change to bring it down if it is high.


----------



## GlennLever

Deeda said:


> Finally a nitrite drop to zero. :dancing:
> 
> I can't explain what is going on with the nitrate unless you erred doing the test? Did you happen to perform a water change?


No water change, if you go back over the pictured tests, the Nitrate decreased in each one.



Billy-the-fish said:


> I followed the fishless cycle from this forum and it states if you have nitrite in your tank it can skew the nitrate reading. So an accurate nitrate reading is once your nitrite is at zero. If you add ammonia today and tomorrow your ammonia and nitrite is zero then your tank is cycled, you would just need to check your nitrate reading and do water change to bring it down if it is high.


Here is hoping, will post tests tonight and tomorrow with not changes to the water.


----------



## GlennLever

Here are the readings as of 9:00 tonight

Remember the equivalent of 2PPM ammonia was added this morning.

I read it as Ph 8, Ammonia 0, Nitrite 3 PPM, Nitrate of 20 PPM










I will make no changes and check in the morning. Seems the bacteria to convert the Nitrite is slow to react???


----------



## GlennLever

Seems the bacteria to convert the Nitrite is slow to react???










I will test again tonight, no ammonia, or water changes.

Thoughts?


----------



## Billy-the-fish

Nitrite isn't far off Glenn, it takes far longer to get to zero than ammonia does. Few more days should do it, fingers crossed.


----------



## GlennLever

Billy-the-fish said:


> Nitrite isn't far off Glenn, it takes far longer to get to zero than ammonia does. Few more days should do it, fingers crossed.


How fast should the bacteria that converts Nitrate to Nitrite act? This evening it will be 0 again. Do I add ammonia again?


----------



## Billy-the-fish

I was adding ammonia every 2 days and doing 25% water changes every day. It appeared to be taking forever but once it dropped to 0.5ppm it only took a few more days to convert in 24 hours.


----------



## GlennLever

Billy-the-fish said:


> I was adding ammonia every 2 days and doing 25% water changes every day. It appeared to be taking forever but once it dropped to 0.5ppm it only took a few more days to convert in 24 hours.


That sounds about where I am now. Tonight I will be back to 0. Tomorrow morning will be 48 hours since I added ammonia.

I will add again on Sunday morning, should return to 0 Monday I hope.

If it does I would say I am there. Time for fish

Dr. Tim's final instructions.

•	When BOTH ammonia and nitrite are below 0.2 ppm (NH3-N or NO2-N), add another 2 ppm ammonia.
•	Continue to measure every day. When you can add 2 ppm ammonia and BOTH ammonia and nitrite are below 0.2 ppm (NH3-N or NO2-N) the next day your tank is cycled - congrats! You're done!
•	Do a partial water change and add some fish.


----------



## Billy-the-fish

Yeah that is what I did, when ammonia and nitrite were 0ppm I added ammonia and then waited 24 hours and both tested zero, that way you can be certain tank is cycled. It's hard to be patient when you just want to get some fish in your tank.


----------



## GlennLever

Billy-the-fish said:


> Yeah that is what I did, when ammonia and nitrite were 0ppm I added ammonia and then waited 24 hours and both tested zero, that way you can be certain tank is cycled. It's hard to be patient when you just want to get some fish in your tank.


Thanks.

Benn there once 48 hours ago, will "cycle" the tank one more time this weekend, and then order fish on Monday (unless something changes)


----------



## DJRansome

You want the toxins to be processed in 24 hours.

I would definitely wait until you get zero within 24 hours after adding ammonia several days in a row.


----------



## GlennLever

Numbers are in early (normal time is 9:00), see below, do I add ammonia now or in the morning?


----------



## Billy-the-fish

If you have been adding ammonia on a morning I would stick to the same time.


----------



## GlennLever

Billy-the-fish said:


> If you have been adding ammonia on a morning I would stick to the same time.


I added equivalent amount of ammonia last night to bring the tank 2 PPM.

13 hours later this is what I have, I am sure the nitrite will be 0 tonight 24 hours later.

Fish Time?


----------



## DJRansome

Two days of the 24 hours zero/zero before ordering fish.


----------



## Billy-the-fish

If nitrite is at zero after 24 hours, personally I would add ammonia again and check nitrite after another 24 hours just to be certain. What is one more day if it guarantees tank is cycled, and when you add fish they are going to be ok.


----------



## GlennLever

Ok, check tonight, add if ready, wait 24 hours.


----------



## GlennLever

So here is a question that I believe belong in this Category.

I currently have only one tank, no quarantine tank.

As these are all new fish coming from one location, I plan on putting them into the tank and "quarantine" them there??????

If I see any suspicious fish I could set up a tub in the basement (use one of the cycled canister filters on it).


----------



## DJRansome

It's fine not to quarantine if you are adding all new fish to the same tank at once.

You will need a rehoming tank soon, what are you thinking for that?


----------



## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> It's fine not to quarantine if you are adding all new fish to the same tank at once.
> 
> You will need a rehoming tank soon, what are you thinking for that?


Never given it a thought as the only time I have had to rehome was when I moved.

I put an ad with picture on Craig's List and an note "Free to a good home"

They were gone out of the tank and on the way to a new home within hours of the ad appearing. I had many callers.

Educate me why I will need to rehome fish? In the past, I have keep the same fish for years, and years.


----------



## DJRansome

If a fish is about to be killed, or about to kill another fish, and you find you have too many males and not enough females...aggression can be remedied by adjusting your stock.

Rehome extra males if they become a problem.

It is an excellent idea to keep your fish for their entire life span. Hope for the best, be prepared for the worst. Too much aggression can make fish susceptible to illness, illness can be avoided by managing aggression.

Nice that you can rehome in hours using Craig's list, not all of us are that lucky.


----------



## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> If a fish is about to be killed, or about to kill another fish, and you find you have too many males and not enough females...aggression can be remedied by adjusting your stock.
> 
> Rehome extra males if they become a problem.
> 
> It is an excellent idea to keep your fish for their entire life span. Hope for the best, be prepared for the worst. Too much aggression can make fish susceptible to illness, illness can be avoided by managing aggression.
> 
> Nice that you can rehome in hours using Craig's list, not all of us are that lucky.


So, understanding that I keep fish a long time, there for the initial investment amount means less when spread over time.

Would there be any fish you would substitute, in the current list?


----------



## DJRansome

No not at all. It's just an established practice among fishkeepers that keep harem breeders that when you buy unsexed juveniles you might end up with 5 or more males and eventually that can cause aggression problems.

Tang fish that pair can also require rehoming. Buy six and let a pair form, rehome four.


----------



## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> No not at all. It's just an established practice among fishkeepers that keep harem breeders that when you buy unsexed juveniles you might end up with 5 or more males and eventually that can cause aggression problems.
> 
> Tang fish that pair can also require rehoming. Buy six and let a pair form, rehome four.


Good news, this thread may be nearing its end

22 hours after adding ammonia this is what I have.

Plan is to add again tonight, test in the morning, test again early afternoon and if all looks well will order some fish.

Thoughts?

:fish:

I'll watch for a sale on a full "kit" setup, what size?


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## DJRansome

The 20G Long is a good size for a utility tank. Rehoming, quarantine, treating illness and fry. Make sure the filter is separate and can run on your main tank to keep it cycled.


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## GlennLever

So...

Getting close to fish and went to check inventory and two of the fishes are not listed any more.

Chindongo saulosi Taiwanee Reef
1.5''+ 9.00 ea

and

Labidochromis caeruleus Nkhata Bay ''White Lab''
1.5''+ 9.00 ea


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## GlennLever

GlennLever said:


> So...
> 
> Getting close to fish and went to check inventory and two of the fishes are not listed any more.
> 
> Chindongo saulosi Taiwanee Reef
> 1.5''+ 9.00 ea
> 
> and
> 
> Labidochromis caeruleus Nkhata Bay ''White Lab''
> 1.5''+ 9.00 ea


I have to believe the person I wanted to buy from was closed on Monday as I never got a call back

Tank is now cycled and no fish to put in it.

Do I keep adding ammonia until I get some fish?


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## GlennLever

GlennLever said:


> GlennLever said:
> 
> 
> 
> So...
> 
> Getting close to fish and went to check inventory and two of the fishes are not listed any more.
> 
> Chindongo saulosi Taiwanee Reef
> 1.5''+ 9.00 ea
> 
> and
> 
> Labidochromis caeruleus Nkhata Bay ''White Lab''
> 1.5''+ 9.00 ea
> 
> 
> 
> I have to believe the person I wanted to buy from was closed on Monday as I never got a call back
> 
> Tank is now cycled and no fish to put in it.
> 
> Do I keep adding ammonia until I get some fish?
Click to expand...

OK he is out of the two fishes until the end of next week, maybe.

Two thoughts

Buy what he has, supplement later, remember no quarantine tank as yet, and this is not the way I would like to go.

Supplement the missing species with other fish (what I think I would like to do)

Suggestions???


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## DJRansome

I would wait. You will have these fish for 8 years...what is one week to get what you want?


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> I would wait. You will have these fish for 8 years...what is one week to get what you want?


Nope, I cannot do that.

Fish are ordered 6 of each

Iodotropheus sprengerae ''Rusty''

Synodontis lucipinnis ''Dwarf Petricola''

Pseudotropheus sp. ''Acei'' Luwala Reef ''Yellow Tail Acei''

Labidochromis caeruleus Lion's Cove ''Yellow Lab''

Moving to the fish category, feel free to follow this adventure there under the same name Glenn's Tank Thread. (Lake Malawi Species)


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## GlennLever

GlennLever said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would wait. You will have these fish for 8 years...what is one week to get what you want?
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, I cannot do that.
> 
> Fish are ordered 6 of each
> 
> Iodotropheus sprengerae ''Rusty''
> 
> Synodontis lucipinnis ''Dwarf Petricola''
> 
> Pseudotropheus sp. ''Acei'' Luwala Reef ''Yellow Tail Acei''
> 
> Labidochromis caeruleus Lion's Cove ''Yellow Lab''
> 
> Moving to the fish category, feel free to follow this adventure there under the same name Glenn's Tank Thread. (Lake Malawi Species)
Click to expand...

I hope your not mad at me, I am an impulse male after all, I have looked very carefully at the fish and I like the mix?

I still have questions.

Like is this the correct procedure?

open package slowly to avoid going from black darkness to day light.
acclimate unopened bags in the tank 30 minutes
remove bags, hold top, and cut the top of the bag off (avoid ammonia spike in bag)
dump into a fine mess net over a bucket and move the fish to the tank.

comments, suggestions


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## Deeda

Glenn, I won't comment on the stock list as I have no experience with them.

I've not bought online but at local fish club auctions and I do box the fish for transport to and from auctions. As far as unpacking the fish, I've never worried about opening the box slowly to get them accustomed to the light but the rest of the process is similar to what I do. An alternative to dumping the fish into a net over a bucket, you can also use a small bucket or bowl, dump the fish and the bag water in and then net them out to the tank. I've had difficulty using the net with bucket and dumping fish from the bag by myself.

I do suggest taking pics of the box as it arrived, when you initially open it and of the bagged fish in case there is an issue with either packaging or injured or dead fish. A time stamped pic may be helpful if there are problems with either the shipper or vendor in case you need to file a complaint.

Just for giggles, after you've unbagged the fish and their in their new tank, test their shipping water for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH to see the results.


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## GlennLever

Deeda said:


> Glenn, I won't comment on the stock list as I have no experience with them.
> 
> I've not bought online but at local fish club auctions and I do box the fish for transport to and from auctions. As far as unpacking the fish, I've never worried about opening the box slowly to get them accustomed to the light but the rest of the process is similar to what I do. An alternative to dumping the fish into a net over a bucket, you can also use a small bucket or bowl, dump the fish and the bag water in and then net them out to the tank. I've had difficulty using the net with bucket and dumping fish from the bag by myself.
> 
> I do suggest taking pics of the box as it arrived, when you initially open it and of the bagged fish in case there is an issue with either packaging or injured or dead fish. A time stamped pic may be helpful if there are problems with either the shipper or vendor in case you need to file a complaint.
> 
> Just for giggles, after you've unbagged the fish and their in their new tank, test their shipping water for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH to see the results.


I intend to do a video of the arrival and unboxing. I know it has been done to death, but it will create a record. I will post it here when I do it.

You have given me an idea. What I will do is find a bowl just large enough to hold the water from a bag with a net draped over it, pour the fish into the bowl and then lift the net up????

I agree to do the testing, it will be interesting. Any meds. in the water might through the values off though.


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## DJRansome

I do dump the bag into a net over a bucket and flip them into the tank. I use a large net that sits over the mouth of the bucket by itself.

No concerns about the species but I do not think you have enough fish. Almost, and they are among the most peaceful, but not quite.


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## shiftyfox

Acclimation - is it really necessary..? 
I just put them straight in, has anyone actually lost a fish or totally stressed them leading to an illness..?


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> I do dump the bag into a net over a bucket and flip them into the tank. I use a large net that sits over the mouth of the bucket by itself.
> 
> No concerns about the species but I do not think you have enough fish. Almost, and they are among the most peaceful, but not quite.


What would you add, I am waiting on the vendor to send me an invoice



shiftyfox said:


> Acclimation - is it really necessary..?
> I just put them straight in, has anyone actually lost a fish or totally stressed them leading to an illness..?


After all this time I think I CAN wait 30 minutes to let them free, if nothing else it is goo insurance.


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## shiftyfox

Some dark blue would look good with the mix you have or some stripes.


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## Deeda

There's actually a few schools of thought on acclimating fish:
1) float the unopened bag in the tank until temperatures are close (hard to determine if you can't check the bagged temp)
2) float the unopened bag in the tank until temperatures match and then add some tank water to bag to get them used to your water
3) drip acclimate over a couple hours from tank to bag but that means opening the bag and you also don't know if there is ammonia in the bag from the fish transport process
4) open bag immediately, dump fish into a net over a container and plop the fish in the tank

I usually use method #4 unless I know that the fish bag water is significantly colder or warmer than the tank they are going into then I use method #1.


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## GlennLever

The fish are ordered (paid for).

Expected delivery is Thursday.

I will put unopened bags in the tank for 30 minutes, hold the top of the bag tightly and cut the top off, dump fish into net over buck and right into the tank.

If the thoughts are I will need more fish (48 inch long tank) Give me some suggestions and I will place another order (shipping will kill me).

Cynotilapia Afra?


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## shiftyfox

Dull females but males look stunning. 
I know you don't mainganos shape but colour would look great with the mix you have.


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## shiftyfox

Just make sure none of the water in the bags goes in to your tank, sure fire way of getting problems if there are any nasties in the vendors water.


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## GlennLever

shiftyfox said:


> Dull females but males look stunning.
> I know you don't mainganos shape but colour would look great with the mix you have.


I thought they were aggressive?



shiftyfox said:


> Just make sure none of the water in the bags goes in to your tank, sure fire way of getting problems if there are any nasties in the vendors water.


Will do.


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## shiftyfox

All cichlids can be aggressive even the ones you see documented as peaceful.


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## shiftyfox

Few days ago DJ mentioned giant Demasoni (sp metriaclima dolphin) 
They look a superb alternative to demasoni. I know they are supposed to grow pretty large though
What size tank are recommended for these and does anyone have any experience with them..?
Something I'll certainly considered when I move onto a much larger tank.


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## DJRansome

I threw them out for consideration for a 75G species tank where someone wanted blue barred fish.

I would not suggest them for a mixed species tank because most people who have them don't sound all that thrilled with them and there are a lot of reports that they are skittish.

I have not kept and will not keep them for that reason.

But maybe a 75G species that can only have blue barred fish with colorful females...they are an easier choice than demasoni. Not a recommendation at all. Not applicable to Glenn.


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## DJRansome

Glenn...you have a personal preference to understock where possible. You don't want to rehome extra males. I would not add a species. To address your requirements, I would get 7 of each of the 3 species you specified so you end up with 21 fish.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> Glenn...you have a personal preference to understock where possible. You don't want to rehome extra males. I would not add a species. To address your requirements, I would get 7 of each of the 3 species you specified so you end up with 21 fish.


Believe it of not that is what I did (7 of the three spiecs, and 6 of the cat fish)


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## DJRansome

Great minds!! Can't wait.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> Great minds!! Can't wait.


In the video I say six of each spiecs, it really is 7 of each what I asked for was 6F, 1M, no sexing at this size though.


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## GlennLever

The fish are in the air, FedEx says they will be here before 10:30.

If that is so the fish will not be in the bags more than 12 hours.


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## GlennLever

Fish are at the destination sort facility, should be here before 10:30


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## GlennLever

Deeda said:


> Glenn,
> 
> Just for giggles, after you've unbagged the fish and their in their new tank, test their shipping water for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH to see the results.


Here is the water tests of the water the fish were shipped in. I would say there is truth to the theory that there is an ammonia spike when you allow air into the bag.

Oh, yes, the new fish are in the tank, no pictures (lights) for 24 hours.


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## Deeda

WOW that ammonia level is extremely high!! Did you see a lot of fish feces in the bag water?

Congrats on getting the fish quickly from the vendor. How did they look when you got them?


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## GlennLever

Deeda said:


> WOW that ammonia level is extremely high!! Did you see a lot of fish feces in the bag water?
> 
> Congrats on getting the fish quickly from the vendor. How did they look when you got them?


Yes to the fish feces. The fish look good (even have some color). A little smaller than I expected, but that is not a problem.

Video to follow once the light ban has passed.


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## DJRansome

No feeding either.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> No feeding either.


Correct,

I am still worried about the catfish getting anything to eat.


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## DJRansome

You may not see them eat for the first month. They usually hide. When you catch a glimpse occasionally check that bellies are not concave.

Remember the fish sleep on the substrate at night but the catfish are everywhere scouring the substrate.


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## GlennLever

DJRansome said:


> You may not see them eat for the first month. They usually hide. When you catch a glimpse occasionally check that bellies are not concave.
> 
> Remember the fish sleep on the substrate at night but the catfish are everywhere scouring the substrate.


They are out, scurrying around, up and down the glass and across the rock. No schooling activity.

The rest of the fish are all active and some have quite a bit of color.


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## DJRansome

Sounds good. None of your fish forms schools as part of their behavior. I have heard it said that acei will, but mine never have and others have similar observations.


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## GlennLever

Fish appear to be doing well

Tank was cycled in 14 days, was it Dr. Tim, or was it the cycled filer material?

The three days advertised did not happen

Online fish wen well

I wish to thank everyone that contributed.

I did test the shipping water and ammonia was very high. They say that happens when oxygen enters the bag and the ph goes back up


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## Billy-the-fish

Congratulations on the fish. Tank and fish looking good Glenn.

Enjoy!!


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## Deeda

Nice job Glenn!! Great job on the unbagging video, the fish look great and nice to see they are eating well.


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