# 200 Gallon Aquarium Cichlid Heaven / HeII Build



## Agridion

I purchased a used 200 gallon Perfecto 84" x 24" x 24" with an Oak stand and Canapy with a few other extras from Craigs list. Man was it dirty when it arrived. I will be posting pictures of my progress in setting up this tank. I also have a unique idea for the backdrop for the Cichlids which is where the Heaven / **** ties it. More on that later.


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## iwade4fish

waiting with bells on!


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## Agridion

A picture of my tank as my roomate and I are cleaning it out. He is sucking out all of the dirt from the bottom of the tank. I checked for cracks and to make sure the primary seal is intact for the aquarium. All good exept for the ulgy water marks on back of the tank.









Here are what the Marks on the outside of the back of my tank look like. The previous owner had a platic backdrop and what ever was in his tank got between the glass and the plastic and left these marks. I am not sure if the glass etching was from the marks or the previous owner trying to remove the marks. Either way CLR, vinager and a razor blade does nothing. Gong to resort to something stronger.


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## Agridion

FYI I purchased the tank on May 6th so I will catch you all up to speed. After doing a ton of research on how to buff out glass I resorted to ordering 99.99% pure Curium Oxide. In the mean time I had to use something a bit ruffer to get the marks out. After 10 hours of sanding with silicon carbide sandpaper 320 grit then 400 grit, then 600 grit. I was pretty warn out.

Curium Oxide
http://www.facetshoppe.com/cart/cerium_oxide_pure.html

around 10 hours of sanding. What a ***************. The etched in parts are out but now its all ruffed up. At this point this picture only shows the product after using 320 grit sandpaer. The glass is foggy but the marks are out.


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## Agridion

I noticed as I was sanding for hours on end that the secondary seals were shot on all of the vertical corners. The bottom seal looked good. The previous owner was a construction worker, sloppy with his work and he decided to cauk the top 1" of the glass to the top bracket to prevent water from leaking out from under the platic top.

I decided to remove all of the secondary seals. I appologize that I don't have more pictures of this process but you can find all sorts of good exampls of this online. I did a ton of reasearch as to what type of silicone to use and I ended up going with "momentive rtv 108" from Grainger.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/GENERAL-ELECTRIC-Clear-Silicone-4UH12

After spending several hours carefully cutting out the silicione and scraping it to the glass. I decided I wanted to buff out the front glass before I resilicioned the tank. Thank goodness the Cerium Oxide came in so I decided to put it to the test. I used my hand drill with a buffing attachment. 
http://www.dewalt.com/tools/polisher-attachments-dw4990.aspx

I picked up piece of thick touch leather and cut it to the size of the buffer. Melted pure bee's wax and let the leather disk pad soak up as much bees wax as I could. As it was still hot and the bee's wax was melted I covered the leather pad with Cerium Oxide. The idea is to get the cerium oxide to stick to the Pad.

Before Sanding. When looking though the glass I could see a kind of fog on the inside of the glass. Again CLR, Vinegar, and a razor did nothing.










After using the Cerium Oxide leather buffing pad with lots of water.


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## Agridion

Here is the tank Tapped up.









Me inside the tank.









Close up of taping









I have to say that putting Silicone on a tank is much harder then it looks. Expecially when you are doing a whole tank at once. I decided to start at an end and silicone all of the end, bottom, sides, top, and then move to the middle of the tank, then do the other end. I would reccomend when silicioning a tank to Please wear a Mask and goggles. I didn't and had to hold my breath many of times as my eyes watered and I felt as if I was going to die. Also if I had to do the tank over again. I think I would have siliconed one joint at a time instead of doing it section by section. I choose to do it section by section because I heard that once silicione starts to cure/ top layer hardens the seal between the two aren't very good.

Also Paper towels are your friend. I ended up wearing thin rubber gloves and dipping my fingers into soap water before I would spread out the silicone but that still didn't help from it getting all over the place. I found out that you can never have to many paper towels when putting the secondary seal on.


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## Agridion

Now I have scene many custom intank foam / rock backdrops built for tanks mainly reef tanks. I thought hey thats a great idea for a Cichlid tank. But then after thinking about it most of those back drops don't have many caves and what do all Cichlid fish love? CAVES!!!! LOL so I thought hey what if I build a built in backdrop that was nothing but caves! I wouldn't need as many hiding spots in the rest of my tank. Now keep in mind this is just an idea and I had no clue what I was getting myself into nor did I completely think through this idea as I am running into things that I could kick my self for not thinking of earler in the process.

I decided to use PVC pipes as the caves for my backdrop. I did some research online and all of the sites I read pretty much say that PVC, PVC Glue and PVC Primer are all fine in the tank if you let it dry.

Picture of a buch of PVC pipes that I cut to build up my stock.


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## Agridion

I picked up 1/2", 3/4", 1", 1-1/4", 2" and 3" PVC Pipe and I decided to cut them different lengths. My idea was to create kind of a wave patter out of the PVC Pipe that would go up against the back side of the tank. So looking directly into the tank you would see though the PVC piping to what ever I decide to put back there and when you look at from an angle you would see the sides of the PVC piping. This would give 100's of caves for different size fish. I didn't think to far ahead and decide to build one of these. I thought of building at least 4 sections so I can get them into the tank since I have 2 dividers ( supports)

Here is what I came up with for the edge of the tank. When looking at this picture the floor will actually be the back side of the tank.


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## Agridion

Here is a slightly different angle.










You can see I already was impatient so I began gluing the PVC together. The purple is so ugly but I don't know how I am going to get rid of the purple. I am thinking of coating it with someting and then putting sand on it but I am not sure how well that will work since there will be 100's of pipes and small nooks and crannies.

Here is a top view of it or if it were in the aquarium if you were to look into the aquarium.


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## Agridion

I recruited my wife and she helped design the start of my second back drop pannel. I have to say I like her design better then mine.

Side angle view 









Front view









Here is a veiw with them both.


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## Agridion

Last night I ran across a problem with my PVC back drop idea. Currently when I put the piece into my tank the PVC goes all the way to the glass. I fear that the fish will not like going into the pipes if they can't turn around being that there is only one entrance to each cave and the diameter is the same all the way to the back. So I decide to use my router to cut out notches in the back side linking some pipes to each other. I'll have take some more pictures of these when I get home tonight. When building these backdrops I should have made some hollow spots by not allowing all of the PVC to rest against the ground when gluing. This would have been 10 times easier and would have turned out much cleaner then having to router out parts of the PVC.

Do you all think that I should just let the PVC go all the way to the glass or should I cut back tunnels connecting the PVC to each other by the glass wall?

Also how should I coat the PVC or should I just leave it in its unfinished form white and purple?


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## Agridion

More on the Back drop to come. I will take a few pictures tonight of where I am at now. I wish I would have designed caves with in those PVC tubes instead of having them all be flush with the ground.... I am kicking myself as that was easily 3 days worth of work just making the first 20" x 20" section and a whole can of PVC glue.

Man I am glad I had a mask for gluing the PVC together.

I decided to check to see if I need to reinforce my floor trusses before I fill up my tank. The water in a 200 gallon tank weights roughly 1,660 pounds and when you count in the stand, tank, canopy and etc you are easily over 2,000 pounds. I am putting this tank next to an outside wall close to the wall and across 5 floor trusses so I already know that this will put most of weight at the wall and remove 
most of the bending moment.

Picture of my basement's beams









I talked to a few people from my work. (Engineers; and we came up with this calculation.)










With my tank adding 1/2 of the maximum moment the truss was designed for at 2' 6" from the wall I decided I should look into reinforcing the trusses just to be safe and not have to worry about it in the back of my mind. At our work it's safety first.


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## Agridion

Well Today (I called them on Wednesday) I finally heard back from the manufacture of my floor trusses. Jeez was it a job tracking down who designed my 11 year old floor trusses. They told me to use 3/4" CDX plywood and cut out 16" x 4' sections and glue and screw these to both sides of my trusses for all 5 trusses. They recommend 4' O.C. spacing using 2.5" screws and if I could to screw a few into the diagonal cross sectional beams. They also recommend to use a construction grade glue to glue these to the trusses as well as to screw them in. Pictures to follow when I actually get around to this. There are a few pieces of conduit and my air conditioner line that i will have to cut out for. Always something to make the job harder.


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## cantrell00

> I purchased a used 200 gallon Perfecto 84" x 24" x 24"


Isn't that larger than 200 gallons? My 180 is 72 X 24 X 24.

Is 2 X 2 X 2 more than 20 gallons? Just curious... Maybe you are right..

Not sure if I am entirely following the PVC pipe backdrop.. It certainly looks interesting...

As for the floor supports - if in doubt reinforce!

I look forward to following this one. What are you stocking it with?


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## comanswoodwork

84x24x24 is 209 gallons. That is the physical outside volume. Subtract 1 inch in each dimension to account for glass thickness and you drop to 190 gallons. Amazing how much 1 inch means.


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## Agridion

Well the owner told me it was 200 gallons but I can't seem to find anything on line that says what it actually is. To be honest I have not calculated what it is. Lets find out.

http://ovas.ca/index.php?page=53

A 265 is 84 x 24 x 30 and a 220 is 72 x 24 x 20 So I figure a 200 gallon is close. From Answers.com One US gallon is 0.133681 cubic feet or 7.48 gallons per cubic foot of water. My tank is 2' x 2' x 7' or 28 cubic feet. So 7.48 x 28 is 209.5 gallons. Hmm So my tank is ~ 210 gallons. AWESOME its bigger then I thought.

I'm planning on putting some ruby read peacocks in the tank. And to be honest I know you all are going to kill me but my wife wants to put different colored ones in as well. So we probably are going to have some mutts if I can't convince her otherwise. I am tearing up the house and she has been extremely tolerant with my path of destruction so if she is hard pressed on it I might have to fold in.










What are your thoughts on my back drop idea? Do you think they can turn around in the PVC pipes if they only have one entrance or should I make two? Normal cichlid caves have one entrance but once the fish passes though the entrance the cave opens up allowing for the fish to turn around... Here the cave is the same diameter all the way to the glass... I jus don't have enough experience.


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## Agridion

I'll have to measure the outside of the tank. The glass is 3/4" thick. I don't know the exact measurements of the tank; but I think its not exactly 84 x 24 x 24. I think it might be slightly bigger if you are measuring the outside of the tank.

Ideas please on the back drop... Thanks all.

Also I am thinking of putting in a RUGJ custom built from 1/2 and 3/4 in PVC with at least 120 gpm per jet opening. Jets as well as putting some holes in the PVC so I can get up current through the gravel. I was also thinking of putting in 1 to 2 hydor koralia water movers. I hear they are quite when not operated with a wave maker. (My idea with all of this is to keep the fish poop off the gravel so that the filters can suck it up. Cichlids dig and in my 55 poop loves to collect in those caves... Disgusting!

I am also not sure what kind of main filter to use. Whether it will be some custom built canister, some monster store bought self cleaning canister, a sump or some other type of filtration. I do know that I want to build (preferably) or buy a fluidized bed sand filter.

Recommendations on this are also appreciated


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## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> Not sure if I am entirely following the PVC pipe backdrop.. It certainly looks interesting..."
Click to expand...

Cantrell00 what do you not follow on the PVC backdrop? I will try to explain it further if you can help me out. Also I will take a picture of what I have inside of my tank when I get home tonight. After I pick up the Plywood.

The PVC you see resting on the floor in the pictures will actually be rotated 90 degrees and will be going on the inside of the back wall of my aquarium. So when looking though the front of my tank you will be peering into the PVC and all you would see are circles.

I.E.









Then when you look at it from an angle you will see the different heights of the PVC. Like you are to one side of the aquarium. This is what you would see. Again the tubes are not sitting vertical like they are in the picture but horizontal when they are in the tank. I just used the floor (will be the back glass in the tank) as a base point to build off of. 









What I am not sure off and I didn't plan for ahead of time is now all of the PVC tubes but.t up against the glass wall leaving only one entrance for each cave (PVC) pipe. Do you think I should provide a way for the cichlids to enter in the back side of the pvc like have a way for the fish to swim from one PVC tube to the next? Picture a U.


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## cantrell00

> Ideas please on the back drop... Thanks all.


paint it black is what i did..

ok.. now i follow you... seems like it would be very functional & equally displeasing aesthetically..

I guess you can't be steered towards mbuna, right?


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## Agridion

cantrell00 you think it will be ugly? I think it will look different thatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s for sure. Since I am an engineer I think it will look kind of neat especially after it has algae all over. I also figured that since I will have enough hiding places I can have less rock in the fore and middle ground.

Should I leave the PVC to only have one enterance or make 2?

Won't the paint flake or chip off?

Why mbuna's? They are just so mean! I have a 55 aquarium now with Mbuna's and I was thinking of transfering some of them into the 200 as well.


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## cantrell00

> cantrell00 you think it will be ugly? I think it will look different thatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s for sure. Since I am an engineer I think it will look kind of neat especially after it has algae all over. I also figured that since I will have enough hiding places I can have less rock in the fore and middle ground.


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder my man.. If you like it, run with it... I prefer a natural look myself.



> Should I leave the PVC to only have one enterance or make 2?


I think the fish will be more inclined to use them if they can go all the way through.



> Won't the paint flake or chip off?


Nope. Not unless you want it to. Would need to be scraped off if so desired.



> Why mbuna's? They are just so mean! I have a 55 aquarium now with Mbuna's and I was thinking of transfering some of them into the 200 as well.


Not entirely true.. Some are for sure... Having a friggin EIGHT FOOT tank (yes, I am jealous!) will go a LONG way to minimizing that though.. Well along with species selection.. Basically, stay away from melanochromis & tropeops species.. Here is a partial list of what could be considered as 'peaceful':

Yellow Labs
Rusty
Psuedo Acei Luwala or Ngara
Psuedo Saulosi (if the only blue/black bar type)
Any of the Zebra Types, Red Zebra, Blue Cobalt or Pearl.

There are many others...

Here is my 180 build if you want more decorating ideas..

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=225411&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0


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## Agridion

Nice. Your tank is beautiful and very natural looking. You have a TON of fish in your tank. Do any of your fish fight? I figured having more hiding places would be a good thing so I wanted a backdrop that would provide me with enough hiding places for the fish and would allow me to have minimum things to remove when cleaning the gravel and for them to dig under. I also wanted to set up the tank so that it would encourage breeding. I hope that after its all in, painted it won't look extremely ugly. LOL

What kind of paint should I use? A black spray paint? Would it be toxic?

How is your tank maintenance? I was thinking of doing a sump. Recommendations?


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## cantrell00

Give me a few & I will get back with you.. gotta jet.


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## hugenerd

Gotta say I am loving following this thread. You have a brilliant opportunity to something pretty sweeT here with that huge tank.

Personally I have to agree with you that there are a lot of really nice looking backgrounds out there whether they are 3D, DIY, custom, professionally made etc... but you're right most of them are flat with no caves and Cichlids love caves. Most back grounds to me seem to take up so much tank space but offer little in actually hiding space so you are forced to take up even more tank space making caves as well.

I think (IMHO) you have gone from one extreme to the next in that you are offering just caves. Have you got any plans for what is going to go in the middle or front of the tank at all so far as decor/rocks etc?

I think perhaps that so much PVC may not be the way to go on this one. Depending on your stock list and how you manage your stock, you may find that a lot of those PVC caves will go unused. My cichlids love weaving in and out of the rocks and rock formations that I make (I change it up every 6-9 months or so) and it is brilliant watching them.

Also.....perhaps taking into account waste in that (my cichlids anyway) poop in their caves all the time. Imagine having to pull the poop from all those Pipes - could be a huge pain : (

I think you are on the right track with integrating caves into the back ground I just think it is a little extreme.

I am all for the natural look and using a black background & rocks. This allows you to change up the design as much as you like where as if you go with a background you are pretty set in stone with it.

Looking forward to seeing what happens next : ) :thumb:


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## Agridion

hugenerd said:


> Gotta say I am loving following this thread. You have a brilliant opportunity to something pretty sweeT here with that huge tank.
> 
> Personally I have to agree with you that there are a lot of really nice looking backgrounds out there whether they are 3D, DIY, custom, professionally made etc... but you're right most of them are flat with no caves and Cichlids love caves. Most back grounds to me seem to take up so much tank space but offer little in actually hiding space so you are forced to take up even more tank space making caves as well.
> 
> I think (IMHO) you have gone from one extreme to the next in that you are offering just caves. Have you got any plans for what is going to go in the middle or front of the tank at all so far as decor/rocks etc?
> 
> I think perhaps that so much PVC may not be the way to go on this one. Depending on your stock list and how you manage your stock, you may find that a lot of those PVC caves will go unused. My cichlids love weaving in and out of the rocks and rock formations that I make (I change it up every 6-9 months or so) and it is brilliant watching them.
> 
> Also.....perhaps taking into account waste in that (my cichlids anyway) poop in their caves all the time. Imagine having to pull the poop from all those Pipes - could be a huge pain : (
> 
> I think you are on the right track with integrating caves into the back ground I just think it is a little extreme.


hugenerd you might be right that it is a little extreme. I am not going to deny that. LOL and honestly I don't know if I will end up using this idea or building a new. Either way I am dead set on having my background be full of caves. I just haven't figured out the right mix. I also want different size caves some for the bigger fish some for the little ones and tiny ones for the fry (if and when that ever happens) I thought this would be an aswesome idea but as I am buiding this it is taking alot of time and I am not sure how I am going to cover this. My first idea was to try to incorporate a natural design with tunnels. The problem with natural backgrounds as well is most of the caves turn out of view and that's where the fish hides most of the time. With having a strait away view I was hoping that I could see all of my fish all of the time. I wish I could come up with a way that wasn't so time consuming to add sand to my design or to start-a-new with a cave full background.

Any ideas?... Foam with PVC?

Also on the Poo part you are right they do poo a lot in their caves. I was figuring having a huge hydor powerheard that would either suck or blow the water around the smooth PVC cave bottoms and would flush all of the poop off of them. Having a gravel sunken bottom cave or one way entrance with a solid back makes it really hard to flush the waste away but since the PVC is open on the back I feel there is a better chance that it will be carred away with the current. Again this is just me thinking here. Since NO ONE has ever built a background like this It is going to be touch for me to test.

Maybe I will check and see if I can fit it into my 55 gallon tank and see how the fish like it. I also really wish I could go back and rebuild them with what I know now. A few more pictures to follow.


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## natedgg

Agridion, you could use 90 degree or 180 degree sweep PVC pipes to create back doors and other entrances for the fish. That might work better than cutting the PVC. If you do cut it, make sure you sand the cut edges as they do get sharp. I use PVC buried half way in my substrate then put rocks over them to make caves too. Never thought of fusing it to my background. Nice idea.


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## Agridion

Ok I put the two that are still not complete inside the 200 to show you all what it looks like. The camera isn't the best at showing 3D but this gives you all a better idea at what i am trying to do.

Side View









Front View









I decided to take out a bunch of stuff from my 55 and try to fit the piece I made for the 200 in it. One problem is that the PVC structure doesn't go all the way to the glass... There is 1/2 gap due to the fact that it hits the rim as it sticks out of the 55. So far the fish seem to be inspecting it. A few that of the fish that usually get picked on are taking refuge in it already.

I have to say the pictures don't do the sculpture justice.



















Still I have to say it looks 3 times cooler in person then in the pictures since as you move the view of what you are looking at changes also. It is hard to explain... The background is more 3D then your average rock since it's look changes so dramatically as your viewing angle change..


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## Agridion

I think if I could come up with a way to say remove about 1/4 to 1/2 of the pipes (Mostly the smaller ones) and add some sort of fake rock looking stuff in between them I think the design would look amazing. There just isn't much that sticks to PVC pipe.


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## JimA

Nice tank or will be when done, but that background PVC thing confuses the **** out of me of what your trying to do? :? Never mind you posted when I did.

I will say after seeing it, it's more than interesting!!


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## Agridion

natedgg said:


> Agridion, you could use 90 degree or 180 degree sweep PVC pipes to create back doors and other entrances for the fish. That might work better than cutting the PVC.


Natedgg I will be using 90 long elbows to cover up my suction side of my filtration system. Just leaving the back corner and the bottom open for it to pull water in.



natedgg said:


> That might work better than cutting the PVC. If you do cut it, make sure you sand the cut edges as they do get sharp.


I thought about that but when I am cutting roughly 3 - 400 pieces it would take FOREVER to sand all of those edges. It just isn't practical to sand them all. Since I cut them with a table saw the edges are not that sharp. So I think if I end up going (Staying) with this design I think the edges will be fine.

UPDATE... From putting this into the my 55 gallon tank as a test, and I am glad I did, I can already tell that I need to have back doors for all of the caves. Or at least figure out a way for the pipes to open up as they go in so the fish can turn around. I did router out several 'U' loops to connect pipes to each other and these are the ones the fish seem to like the most.

From what I can tell the 1/2 and 3/4" pipe are useless unless I had fry. it seems the are using everything from 1" and up. They are curious little fish. Natdgg I like your idea on the elbows for more of a hiding spot but I don't think it will work with my design beside using them to cover my intake... I like being able to see my fish even when they are hiding in their cave.










Unfortunately I am already starting to think of ways that I can redesign my Cave background. I like the way the two of the sections look that I put together I just didn't think about the fish having to turn around and now that they are glued solid as a rock its hard to modify the **** thing from the back.


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## cantrell00

From a function (maintaining the tank) & an aesthetic perspective, the PVC array is impractical..

The various reasons have been listed in posts prior to this one. I think you may be hyper-concerned about the potential aggression issues of mbuna. Secondly, if given the choice, mbuna males are going to desire to build their own beds in the substrate as far under rocks as they can get. Just an FYI.

Managing their aggression has more to do with selecting the right combination of fish AND the right male to female ratios for those species. For most of the species, 1M/4F is what is typically recommended. For more aggressive species (Melanochromis, Tropeops, Psuedo sp/elongatus types, etc) require a higher ratio of females to single male. Demasoni as an example are the most extreme with 1M to 12+F.

The other factor is tank length and EIGHT FEET goes a LONG way to increasing the margin of error relative to aggression.

As to your questions:



> Nice. Your tank is beautiful and very natural looking. You have a TON of fish in your tank.


 Thank you very much.. I am proud of it.



> Do any of your fish fight?


They quarrel, yes but nothing severe.



> I figured having more hiding places would be a good thing so I wanted a backdrop that would provide me with enough hiding places for the fish and would allow me to have minimum things to remove when cleaning the gravel and for them to dig under. I also wanted to set up the tank so that it would encourage breeding. I hope that after its all in, painted it won't look extremely ugly. LOL


The PVC pipes will not promote breeding of mbuna as much as rocks/gravel & balanced community of fish. Their native environment is a rocky shore line. "Mbuna" means "rock dwelling" I never remove my rocks to vacuum the gravel.. The rocks are sitting on the glass with the sand surrounding them. I basically vacuum what I can get to. Do I get it all, all the time? No. But you don't have to every time either.



> What kind of paint should I use? A black spray paint? Would it be toxic?


Yes, black spray paint. I prefer flat & you are painting the BACK of the tank, not inside. Not toxic.



> How is your tank maintenance?


Keeping a tank pristine is a labor of love. It is a weekly routine, along with the water changes. you can make the process easier somewhat but IME it is just something that has to be done regardless of the fish you keep.



> I was thinking of doing a sump. Recommendations?


Are you committed to drilling the tank? I wouldn't do a sump unless you are. I can't recommend hang over the back drain boxes. I have had them & can't stand them. Personally, I wouldn't have a tank that large WITHOUT a sump but that is just me.

There are pages in the 180 build thread I attached that goes in detail of drilling the tank & building the sump, the plumbing, electrical - everything.

That is a SUPER tank you have & I would really like to assist you through this forum. That thing done properly could be really, really cool.


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## jsaunsnp

Very interesting look. I can't say that i have ever seen anything like that. Like it was said earlier beauty is in the eye of the beholder so if you like it thats all that matters. You are obviously passionate about it with all you went through getting the tank up and ready and thats the cool part about enjoying the hobby I think. I have Gibberosa and they would love something like that (all be it with much larger pipes) I know i have seen others coat pvc like yours with a style of glue and then pour sand over them. Those that I have seen look nice and more natural, as natural as you can get pvc to look. I think I would like the backround better if it wasn't so white with the purple plumbers cleaning stuff on it.

Overall though very nice job, thanks for posting it so we can watch the progress.


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## Agridion

cantrell00

First off I am not set on my PVC design. I built it to see how the fish would like it and how it would look inside the tank. I think it looks alright but I am sure I could make something more realistic. I am just set on having as many caves as possible / practical with in the background. More on this in a minute.

My tank is actually 7 feet but hey who is counting. LOL. All I know is I can lay within it.



cantrell00 said:


> Are you committed to drilling the tank? I wouldn't do a sump unless you are. I can't recommend hang over the back drain boxes. I have had them & can't stand them. Personally, I wouldn't have a tank that large WITHOUT a sump but that is just me.
> 
> There are pages in the 180 build thread I attached that goes in detail of drilling the tank & building the sump, the plumbing, electrical - everything.
> 
> That is a SUPER tank you have & I would really like to assist you through this forum. That thing done properly could be really, really cool.


I wouldn't even know where to start with drilling my tank. Plus I would be scared to %&@k the whole thing up and break my tank. That being said I am not opposed to the idea just scared. Also I have seen sump designs but again I would have to do a ton more research to put a sump in. I think it would probably be easier if I had one.

So I bought (2) 4' X 8' X 2" thick white Styrofoam sheets and I plan to make the concrete Styrofoam backdrop but with a ton of caves. So I think I am going to scratch the PVC idea. It just takes forever to put together.


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## Agridion

OK so after reading about the DIY Styrofoam walls I'm not sure I want to do that either since you have to glue it to the back of the tank to keep it from floating. I want a material that I can easily mold and it wont float.

Oh what to do.


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## Agridion

I apologize for jumping around on background idea's so much. Does anyone know how to make a mache background that is aquarium safe? Not Paper Mache but a paper mache like process. I could imagine that a process like this combining some Styrofoam and natural rock would allow me to create the caves that I desire with a more natural look that won't float in water.

Something like this process but maybe with cement instead of fiberglass. 





Your thoughts?


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## Will1983

look into how the reef keepers make their own live rock, i think its a mix of coral sand and cement. however if you use a cementitous based design you will have to allow it to cure properly before putting it into your tank as the cement will raise your pH.


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## cantrell00

You may want to check out this thread & send this guy a pm about the background you are designing...

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=228613&start=15


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## Chunkanese

Dude, i know how awesome DIY backgrounds are, however, i went down to the beach and collected some very nice rocks, ones i could use to stack creating a background and hiding all my equipment. Looks awesome, cost me $0. I know it may seem like a pain, but i dont need to really move them again for a while since my filter intakes are secured behind the rocks to keep debris from building, and next time i break it all down i will stick an extra powerhead back there. I will get a picture hopefully tomorrow.

Also i pulled all my sand from the back to the front, placed all rocks securely on the bottom so they wont ever shift, and took my time stacking them up making sure there was no chance for them to fall. I collected large thin rocks that you would consider good skipping rocks, so when i stacked them at the top they look like big rocks facing you, but they are really 1/2 inch thick making it very light and tons of hiding places.

Edit: I have built a DIY background that was mentioned in the post before me, just a note if you decide to go that way, make sure you PLAN and get dark vinyl, use large-ish pieces of lava rock, and a lot of silicone. If you use small pieces you will have endless amounts of pieces falling off when the vinyl flexes. I used 3 sided vinyl gutters, they looked decent when i was done, however i decided i liked the real rock look.


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## justinf67

got any pics of ur tank?


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## Bodenhimer

The pvc pipe thing is practical but doesnt look the best. Maybe for breeder tank only. Maybe you could just to the old fasioned thing stack rocks any way you like and hide many pvc pipes inbetween. Like use flat rocks with pvc pipe inbetween with other rocks blocking pvc pipes. You could use eggcrate to protect bottom of tank if rocks were to fall. gl


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## Agridion

I thought of doing an all natural backdrop with stacking stones but I haven't had to much luck with them in my 55 so I am hoping to create something more permanent and with a lot more caves. I am trying to minimize the amount of rocks with in the tank and utilize the back drop a bit more. Chunkanese I like your idea with the flat river rocks. It would give the Cichlids TONS of places to hide. For me to fill my ~200 gallon tank (after closer inspection I think it's closer to 190 gallons) with all those rocks I would have to spend just as much time finding the rocks and setting them up as I would building a permanent structure that would allow me to remove in several pieces instead of several hundred pieces.

I looked into the vinyl backdrop using rain down spouts and you are right they just look Ok. I have another idea in my head on how to create a light weight lots of caves backdrop. I just haven't figured out all of the details on how to make it look extra super real. More on this topic to come. First let me update you all with what I have been doing over the past week +.


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## Agridion

Well last week I prepared all 10 3/4" plywood sections to put up onto the trusses. I don't think I would have made it though drilling all of the screws in if it wasn't for the help of my dad and my brother-n-law. A screw every 4" O.C. is a LOT of screws!

One of my Plywood sections (actually 3 parts to go around wires)










Putting in the last few screws.









After the basement was fully supported and I let the glue dry for a few days. It was time to do a water test on my Aquarium. This is the point where I think any aquariumast holds their breath. I almost fainted since it was about a 20 minute breath. LOL

Half way there









Completely Full (Thank G0D). And the primary seals hold! Holly-Lula and sitting for an hour. I busted out my level before and after filling the tank, completely level. Floor supports are working well.


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## Agridion

This past Friday my dad came over again to assist me in the next step of this setup, a designated water supply and drain. I decided if I am going to do this right I am going to go all out and not have hoses running all over the house when I am cleaning or filling this tank. So here are some brief pictures of the process. This also was a full day's project. I started at 12 PM and ended at 1 AM.

Cutting the hole in the drywall after determining where I wanted the water supply and drain.









After connecting the hot and cold water lines it was time to cut into the drain line. There is are not to many things in a home grosser then cutting into a drain line from below with a hand saw and watching the filth run down the blade all over your arms with no water supply to wash it off. After gagging a few times and a few disinfected wipes later I was back to work.

The next image is the basement shot looking up to where the hot, cold and drain lines go into the wall by the tank.









Here is an image with the lines coming out of the wall.









And finally after I put the drywall back up and fitting up my makeshift faucet support (not screwed in all the way) it was time to test the sucker out and make sure there were no leaks. Fingers crossed again!










Success!

I have a hose attachment for the faucet in the picture it it wasn't on yet.


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## Agridion

Yesterday.

Last week after much contemplation I decided to order a 1,500 gpm http://www.glass-holes.com/ overflow box.

I was freaking out all week in determining if my tank was tempered or not. I called Perfecto and they said that they could not tell me if the sides were tempered or not with out the code on the bottom of the tank. Of course the previous owner took this tag off.

So after reading posts on the web and talking with a glass specialist I went out and picked up some polarized glasses. They all say that you can see the heat stress lines in tempered glass and non-tempered glass you won't see the lines. Don't worry I didn't spend any money on them since every movie theater throws out hundreds of these glasses a day! Yep the 3D plastic movie glasses. So I put the glasses on and looked at my car for a test. Yep sure enough you can easily see what is tempered and what is not. So I determined my tank wasn't tempered.

With the help of my two strong younger brothers and my roommate we took the tank off the stand and tipped it on its side.

Setting up the template









After I have the etched / score marks in the glass and almost ready for my hour long drilling.









The drilling went smoothly. I do have to say that the glass cutter (drill bit) that glass-holes sent me was off center when drilling since my drill wobbled back and forth as I drilled. So it leads me to believe that they buy the cheapest drill bits / defects to send to their customers. Anyways after cutting the pucks out it was time to install the bulkheads.

I ordered the longer bulkheads because their website says for anything over 1/2" glass to get the long ones. Well the long ones were way to darn long so I had to cut them with my table saw. I couldn't image what someone would do if they had to cut them by hand (cry maybe).

The shorter one I still had to cut off three more threads after I snapped the picture.









The overflow box installed. 









And now it was time to put the tank back up (another nail bitter). We managed not to drop the tank when putting it back onto the stand.

I do have one question for all of you. Do you think I put the overflow box to low? Now I am thinking that I might have since I am not sure where the water level will reside when the tank is running. I hope at least half way up the weir. Your thoughts?









Well I have to jet. I will get to describing my idea on the new backdrop in detail later but for a quick description: I plan on making a light weight concrete (with mixing in crushed up Styrofoam) and using different shape inflated balloons to make caves and structures for the concrete to form around. I am also hoping to be able to shape the concrete as it cures and add in some real rocks into the mix as well.


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## jchild40

:thumb:


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## Agridion

I am thinking of creating a backdrop using Styrofoam as a mold to pour lightweight concrete into. I don't have a whole lot done because I wanted to see how it looks and to get an idea of if I could actually make a mold out of Styrofoam that would incorporate caves. Let me know what you think.










Close up 1









Close up 2


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## cantrell00

> I do have one question for all of you. Do you think I put the overflow box to low? Now I am thinking that I might have since I am not sure where the water level will reside when the tank is running. I hope at least half way up the weir. Your thoughts?


Depending on the flow rate, the water will typically drain half way up the teeth.. Mine does anyway..

Glad to see that you went the overflow I recommended. They make a great product.

When you said the saw was off center.. Was the shaft of the bit off center or could you have had the bit off center in the chuck? Was the shaft bent?

I see your posts about a 3d background... Considering all that you have already done, have you considered a Pangea Rocks "Rocky" type 3d background? There are tons of crack/crevices in their backgrounds.. Just a thought. They are expensive for sure but IMO, you cannot replicate how realistic they look.. Well, unless you are an artist & really talented... Anyway... Looks good!

What are you doing for a sump?

Check out glasscages.com .. They build custom filters/sumps if you choose not to build one yourself.. In reality, they are a fairly easy DIY assuming you have an empty tank big enough & you don't mind having some glass cut... We can help you with that too.


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## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> Depending on the flow rate, the water will typically drain half way up the teeth.. Mine does anyway..
> Glad to see that you went the overflow I recommended. They make a great product.


Thanks for the recommendation. It turned out well. I may build an acrylic slider for the overflow so that I can adjust the height of the tank if I think it is to low.


> When you said the saw was off center.. Was the shaft of the bit off center or could you have had the bit off center in the chuck? Was the shaft bent?


I had the drill bit centered in the chuck, I'm sure of that. I am guessing the shaft to the drill bit head was slightly bent or was not aligned properly when built, but I managed around it.


> I see your posts about a 3d background... Considering all that you have already done, have you considered a Pangea Rocks "Rocky" type 3d background? There are tons of crack/crevices in their backgrounds.. Just a thought. They are expensive for sure but IMO, you cannot replicate how realistic they look.. Well, unless you are an artist & really talented... Anyway...


Yeah I am going to carve out some more Styrofoam for another day or two and see how I like the looks. I may abandon this idea as well. I will check out the prefabricated background you mention.


> What are you doing for a sump?


I bought a 40 gallon breeder tank (16" tall since my stand is shorter this leaves me 4 - 6 inches to get my hand in.) I am hoping that a 40 gallon is big enough. Not exactly sure what I want to do in the sump and what kind of pump to use. I do like the fluidized beds but I don't know if i am going to go though with the trouble of setting it up and insuring there are no dead spots. Maybe I will go with the good old nylon pot scrubbers. This site says they have a high surface area for how inexpensive they are. Thoughts? 
http://www.wernersponds.com/biofiltermedia.htm


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## cantrell00

> I may build an acrylic slider for the overflow so that I can adjust the height of the tank if I think it is to low


This may work but would come at the expense of your flow rate.. FYI..



> I bought a 40 gallon breeder tank (16" tall since my stand is shorter this leaves me 4 - 6 inches to get my hand in.) I am hoping that a 40 gallon is big enough. Not exactly sure what I want to do in the sump and what kind of pump to use. I do like the fluidized beds but I don't know if i am going to go though with the trouble of setting it up and insuring there are no dead spots. Maybe I will go with the good old nylon pot scrubbers. This site says they have a high surface area for how inexpensive they are. Thoughts?


A 40 will work but don't oversize the chamber for the wet-dry.. You want plenty of capacity for overflow in the event of a power outage. Having your return lines return the water at the surface helps minimize this too. A 40G breeder is 36 X 18, so I would make the wet dry chamber 18" X 8" X 16" (height of the 40 gallon).. That will leave 28" X 18" X 16" as spillover capacity less the operating level of the sump.. Typically around 4-6".

I am using a 29 gallon that "can" overflow into another 29 if there is a power outage. The other 29 is used as a isolation tank the rest of the time.

I can PM you a diagram if you like... My 180 thread goes into detail of how I built mine...


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## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> That will leave 28" X 18" X 16" as spillover capacity less the operating level of the sump.. Typically around 4-6".


I plan on drilling and putting an 1.5" overflow bulkhead into the top of the 40 gallon tank so I can utilize more of the 40 gallon tank as a filter of some sort instead of as a safety catch. Which is another reason I ran a drain line up behind my tank. Do you think 1.5" PVC would be enough?


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## cantrell00

> I plan on drilling and putting an 1.5" overflow bulkhead into the top of the 40 gallon tank so I can utilize more of the 40 gallon tank as a filter of some sort instead of as a safety catch. Which is another reason I ran a drain line up behind my tank.


Ohh.. Ok.. In that case, sure, make the filter as large as you would like.. The bigger the better.



> Do you think 1.5" PVC would be enough?


Well, you are gravity feeding 2 X 1.5" lines into 1 - 1.5" line & into the drain, so - it would be easy enough to test.. Just rig 2- 1.5" PVC lines into a manifold with a single 1.5" output on the other end.. Hold it upright & dump a gallon of water into each 1.5" line. If it all rushes through the manifold & into the drain without spilling, you should be good to go.

My suspicion is that a single 1.5" line (drain) will more than handle the flow spilling over from the overflow & into the 2 - 1.5" lines that feed your sump.


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## cantrell00

You know, as close as your supply & drain lines are - you could just run the tank on a continuous drip & not even deal with a filter or for that matter, water changes either.

What is the PH of your tap?


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## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> You know, as close as your supply & drain lines are - you could just run the tank on a continuous drip & not even deal with a filter or for that matter, water changes either.


I like that idea. [/quote]How would you suggest hooking something like that up and how would I do a continuous drip? Is that better then doing a sump? Also what do I do about the chlorine in the water?



> What is the PH of your tap?


My tap PH is around 8 if not a little higher and rock hard (perfect for Mbuna's)


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## cantrell00

> I like that idea. How would you suggest hooking something like that up and how would I do a continuous drip? Is that better then doing a sump? Also what do I do about the chlorine in the water?


Pretty simple actually... You would run a supply to your tank & regulate the flow in with some type of valve. Whatever you add would spill over the overflow & into the drain.. You would need to do some research on what the rate would need to be.. You basically want to turn the volume of water over fast enough so that ammonia doesn't build & become an issue.. You would need to add some powerheads to the tank to eliminate dead spots. As for the chlorine, you wouldn't be adding tap water fast enough for it to be an issue. A lot of these variables are dependent on the bio-load based upon the number of fish, how often they are fed & even what they are fed. All of these answers are specific to your tank.

The ambient temp of the room would determine the temp of the tank assuming you didn't have a heater in the tank itself.

I would google "aquarium continuous drip system" & ask around about it.



> My tap PH is around 8 if not a little higher and rock hard (perfect for Mbuna's)


Perfect. I would do the necessary research to do it this way. The fish will thrive because nitrates would never be present & you don't have to deal with the hassle of weekly 40-50% water changes.


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## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> Perfect. I would do the necessary research to do it this way. The fish will thrive because nitrates would never be present & you don't have to deal with the hassle of weekly 40-50% water changes.


*40 to 50% water changes weekly!!?* Wow that's a lot of water to be changed out weekly. YouÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re talking 90 gallons a week. I am hoping to change my water at minimum every other week and use the continuous drip system to just keep the tank full. This would be accomplished by utilizing the sump as a filter as well as all of the gravel/sand in the tank as a filter as well by using custom made RUGF&J.


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## cantrell00

I just did some rough math.. If you turned the total water volume over every couple hours it would equate to nearly 72K gallons per month, so scratch that...

Yes... 50% water changes per week is common on mbuna tanks.. I would recommend it on any tank... Obviously, the frequency & volume of the changes is relative to how stocked the tank is, how much they are fed & what they are fed to a certain degree..

Changes are necessary to dilute the build up & concentration of nitrates. Just the way it is..


----------



## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> Changes are necessary to dilute the build up & concentration of nitrates. Just the way it is..


I was hoping to over filter the heck out of the tank and also possibly set up live plants in the sump and or incorporate Ripariums into the top of my cement backdrop to help remove nitrates.


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## cantrell00

> I was hoping to over filter the heck out of the tank and also possibly set up live plants in the sump and or incorporate Ripariums into the top of my cement backdrop to help remove nitrates.


I will be cheering you on but it has been proven difficult to accomplish... You can't really filter out nitrates & it would take LOTS of plants to offset the nitrate output of the typical - overstocked mbuna aquarium. It isn't impossible, just very difficult.


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## Agridion

well I don't plan on overstocking the tank especially at first. I am planning on putting in only around 20 - 35 fish and letting nature takes its course to stock the tank. So... hopefully I won't have to do that much of a water change weekly.... Especially with a kid on the way. I was hoping for maybe a 10 - 20% water change every other week. I would image that after the tank is overstocked I would have to do a larger water change more often. I was hoping that I wouldn't have to overstock the tank since it is 7' long and I plan on having a bunch of caves but time will tell.


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## Agridion

Current 2' x 2' background Styrofoam mold has 8 caves in it for the cichlids. At this rate it is going to take me 2+ weeks to just create the Styrofoam mold but if it works out it will be worth it.


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## xWingman48

I'm thoroughly impressed with how much time you're getting to tinker with this beast. You must be single at the moment right?


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## Agridion

xWingman48 said:


> I'm thoroughly impressed with how much time you're getting to tinker with this beast. You must be single at the moment right?


Nope. You couldn't be farther off. Lol. Married with a baby on the way. So I have a dead line a few months of none stop work on the tank then its all baby.

I can't wait till I have the backdrop finished off its been a nightmare. I think I an on trial 5 of a backdrop design. I have a bunch of pictures I still have to put up.


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## xWingman48

Kudos to your wife for letting you spend so much time on such a massive undertaking then. I have a 1yr old and a baby on the way, so there's no way I could take on such a project right now. My two show tanks and three breeder / fry tanks are just about all i can handle.

Good luck on meeting your deadline. Having a tank full of colorful fish is helpful to your sanity when you're rocking a baby at 3am. 

Also, bravo for choosing mbuna. It's always sad to me when folks spend countless hours on a big tank and then stick a single arrowana or 2-3 oscars in them. A large tank like that with Africans is going to be pretty sweet.


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## Agridion

xWingman48 said:


> Kudos to your wife for letting you spend so much time on such a massive undertaking then.


Yeah my wife is a one of a kind... Which is why I married here. I know I have pretty much turned the house upside down while doing this project. Little did she know what she was getting herself into by agreeing to this large tank (well neither did I actually). I have done a TON of learning since I started.



> I have a 1yr old and a baby on the way, so there's no way I could take on such a project right now. My two show tanks and three breeder / fry tanks are just about all i can handle.


That's a TON of tanks. I couldn't manage that many tanks plus having 1 kid and 1 on the way. Congrats by the way..... 


> Also, bravo for choosing mbuna. It's always sad to me when folks spend countless hours on a big tank and then stick a single arrowana or 2-3 Oscars in them. A large tank like that with Africans is going to be pretty sweet.


Thanks. I have had Oscars, they are cool and all and expensive especially if feed live food but no where near as cool as a huge tank full of mbana's. Plus it helps having extremely hard and alkaline water (perfect for those little colorful guys). :wink: I also plan on having Peacocks in there as well.

I am really due for an update on this post since I have gone though 3 revisions of my background since my last picture.... I may post my failures (things that didn't hold up to my standard) this weekend if I have time.


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## Agridion

Well since I am trying to stay up late to switch to night shift for a few days I figured I would share some of my trials that I have abandoned:

This is the finished mold with the Styrofoam calves removed:









This is a picture of the Styo caves installed ready for the lightweight concrete to be poured.








I abandoned this idea because it was extremely heavy even for lightweight concrete since I had to fill the mold an inch past the highest Styrofoam ball. It was also a pain to scrape out the Styrofoam caves through their little opening once the concrete cured. I also didn't plan my mold to well and put a few caves in hard to reach places. 
Finished sample piece with Styrofoam still to be scrapped out.








Idea scratched.

So I thought maybe if instead of pouring the concrete I would make small caves by covering Styrofoam with concrete letting them dry then flipping them over and scoop out the Styrofoam. Then stack them on top of each other and connect them with concrete.

Making the caves:








I abandoned this idea for several reasons. One it was really hard to control the thickness of the concrete over the Styrofoam (obtain an uniform layer) as well as it was a pain to scrape out the Styrofoam without cracking/breaking the mold (although they can be repaired). The main reason I scratched this idea is I didn't like how it looked when I put together.
This is my sample piece: 









So now it brings me to my latest idea.... I am already liking how it is turning out.


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## Agridion

This is my test piece for trial 4/5 oh whatever trail I am on... I have lost track.. LOL
I plan on cutting holes into the plastic black fence material for the caves entrance and then coat the entire structure with a thin (1/2") layer of lightweight concrete (using Perlite instead of gravel).

Here is a side view of my test piece w/o the holes cut in. I am not sure what size or shape I want to make them yet. 









This is a back side view of the current structure. There will be 13 caves within this one structure.









The picture really doesn't do it justice. I will take some more as I progress with this idea.


----------



## snoskiur

cantrell00 said:


> I like that idea. How would you suggest hooking something like that up and how would I do a continuous drip? Is that better then doing a sump? Also what do I do about the chlorine in the water?
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty simple actually... You would run a supply to your tank & regulate the flow in with some type of valve. Whatever you add would spill over the overflow & into the drain.. You would need to do some research on what the rate would need to be.. You basically want to turn the volume of water over fast enough so that ammonia doesn't build & become an issue.. You would need to add some powerheads to the tank to eliminate dead spots. As for the chlorine, you wouldn't be adding tap water fast enough for it to be an issue. A lot of these variables are dependent on the bio-load based upon the number of fish, how often they are fed & even what they are fed. All of these answers are specific to your tank.
> 
> The ambient temp of the room would determine the temp of the tank assuming you didn't have a heater in the tank itself.
> 
> I would google "aquarium continuous drip system" & ask around about it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My tap PH is around 8 if not a little higher and rock hard (perfect for Mbuna's)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Perfect. I would do the necessary research to do it this way. The fish will thrive because nitrates would never be present & you don't have to deal with the hassle of weekly 40-50% water changes.
Click to expand...

I've always been curious about this drip system stuff... I use a buffer recipe on my tank, so how would I maintain hardness and Kh with a system like that?


----------



## snoskiur

xWingman48 said:


> I'm thoroughly impressed with how much time you're getting to tinker with this beast. You must be single at the moment right?


THAT's what I was thinking, too! Being a single dad of two, I'd still be on the glass sanding (or actually, convincing myself that it wasn't bad enough to worry about! haha!)


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## Agridion

snoskiur said:


> THAT's what I was thinking, too! Being a single dad of two, I'd still be on the glass sanding (or actually, convincing myself that it wasn't bad enough to worry about! haha!)


I am sure once our baby is born I will have a whole lot less time. Now's the time right! What do you think of my latest idea for a backdrop? Is there anything else that I can cover it with besides concrete?

This is the progress I made today on the second section before heading off to work.


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## snoskiur

Well, in all honestly, I cannot picture what you're working towards. Are you going to cover it with something to make it look like rock or something? You're far more patient and creative than I am with this! I'm intrigued to see what you come up with; there's A LOT of potential with that tank and I'm jealous!


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## Agridion

snoskiur said:


> Are you going to cover it with something to make it look like rock or something?


Yes. I plan on cutting holes in the black fence material (for cave entrances) then coating all of the plastic with a dyed lightweight concrete. I am not sure if I will spend the time to paint it I might let algae do that for me.


----------



## snoskiur

You've mentioned algae several times. IME, as long as you're maintaining your tank and warer chemistry properly, you shouldn't have any algae. Algae feeds off of nitrates, and you'll hopefully keep your nitrates low. So, you may want to consider that.

Also, in an earlier post, you were guessing on your tank size. Length x Width x Height / 231 = Gallons. Hope that helps.


----------



## Agridion

snoskiur said:


> You've mentioned algae several times. IME, as long as you're maintaining your tank and warer chemistry properly, you shouldn't have any algae. Algae feeds off of nitrates, and you'll hopefully keep your nitrates low. So, you may want to consider that.


Snoskiur that's a good point. I may have to paint the background. I hope I don't have algae in my tank but since my current tank does get sunlight from time to time I have found it hard to keep the algae down plus I think I have phosphates in my water. I just figured that since my 55 does accumulate algae due to those two conditions my larger tank would as well. Are there any good (and inexpensive) ways to remove phosphates from the water?


> Also, in an earlier post, you were guessing on your tank size. Length x Width x Height / 231 = Gallons. Hope that helps.


About the measurements. The person who sold the tank to me said it was 84 x 24 x 24 I didn't really validate the measurements. After having the tank for a while and cutting two pucks from the glass I realized the measurements I stated earlier were wrong. The glass is 5/8" thick and the inside measurements are 83L x 21.5 W x 24H. I figure its a 185 gallon and now with that find I have lost 15 gallons since my purchase. Bummer!


----------



## Agridion

Question for everyone... Do you think installing two Hydor Koralia Magnum #6's will be to much water flow for this tank? I am thinking of putting them in the back of the tank facing the front of the tank (spaced splitting the tank into 1/3s if you were looking straight at the tank) to pull debris off the gravel and to pull water through all of the caves.


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## snoskiur

Agridion said:


> About the measurements. The person who sold the tank to me said it was 84 x 24 x 24 I didn't really validate the measurements. After having the tank for a while and cutting two pucks from the glass I realized the measurements I stated earlier were wrong. The glass is 5/8" thick and the inside measurements are 83L x 21.5 W x 24H. I figure its a 185 gallon and now with that find I have lost 15 gallons since my purchase. Bummer!


Still a huge tank! mine is 72 x 24 x 24, so not much smaller than yours! I don't have, nor am I that familiar with, phosphates or how they affect algae. But, I believe that algae should be easily manageable as long as water quality is maintained.


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## Will1983

if you plant a big bunch of fast growing plants they will remove the nitrate and phosphates for you and provide some shelter for your fish


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## snoskiur

What are the best choices for fast growing plants? I have two 10 gallon refugiums right now that I want to put plants in, since the fish in the tank will tear them up.


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## Agridion

I finally have figured out how I am going to configure my outlet piping of my sump pump.

The Pink piping is my distrubition header to my reverse undergravel filter and the blue is my distribution piping to the top spray bar into the tank. I will have two ball valves so I can throttle the flow between the two different sections. The RUGF /J will have holes (size and spacing yet to be determined) facing on angles towards the bottom glass. All piping will be hidden from view when looking into the tank.


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## Agridion

So I finally finished the skeleton of my background. After I build a few pillars, incorporate the undergravel filter I will be cutting cave entrance holes in the black plastic and covering them in light weight concrete. I really like how well they are coming out. The main backdrop incorporates 50 caves (to be... I still need to cut the entrances) and 2 powerheads


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## Rick_Lindsey

Cool! Do you plan to do something on the inner cave walls, or let the fish look at each other through the grate?

-Rick (the armchair aquarist)


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## snoskiur

How do you plan on keeping the caves clean?


----------



## Agridion

Rick_Lindsey said:


> Cool! Do you plan to do something on the inner cave walls, or let the fish look at each other through the grate?


I plan on covering all of the black plastic fence material and the white eggcrate light diffuser with a lightweight (Perlite), dyed, acrylic fortified concrete. So the fishes caves will not look like jail cells. LOL but they will be open to the back glass so if I need to get to them I can push one of the 5 panels forward to gain access.



snoskiur said:


> How do you plan on keeping the caves clean?


Good question. I have thought long and hard about this because fish poop in their caves unlike ferrets (which I also have). I plan on interconnecting all of the caves, top, bottom (except for the bottom caves) , and sides of the caves. Let me explain a little further. I plan on the back of the caves by the glass to have a 1/2"x2" fenced off area (not coated in concrete) using the black fence material that I used in front to allow water flow between the caves but not fish. I also have two Koralia Magnum 6's on either side of the tank. Running these (maybe on a timer) will pull water from the cave network and out into the tank. I also plan on splitting my sump return into two sections. One for the reverse undergravel PVC filter (which during tank cleans I will run as a gravel vac into the sump) (this will not help remove waste from the caves but will on the gravel) and the other as a spray bar above the cave structure. The spay bar will over flow into the tops of the cave structure (which I have designed to leave a 3" wall separating the water in the tank and the water behind the caves. The water will flow from the spay bar down into the cave structure. I hope that the combination of the Koralia Magnum's suction and turbulence in the tank the sump return will be enough to move waste from the caves. If not there are built into (5) sections so I can remove them if need be. also during cleaning I can put a hose (modified gravel vac) into each cave to suck out waste if there is any.


----------



## cantrell00

I admire your persistence...


----------



## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> I admire your persistence...


Thanks.

I incorporated the reverse under-gavel filter and the top spray bar into the backdrop skeleton.









Here is my spray bar design. I wanted a bar that would give me a uniform flow so this is what I came up with. It is a PVC tube wrapped within a PVC tube. The inner tube has holes drilled in the top of it where it lets water out after filling up the inner tube. The water then flows around the inner tube and out down below (the rectangular gap). In the picture bellow I have the spray bar flipped upside down.


----------



## zade

I won't lie I've enjoyed everything about this thread up to this point. From the "mistakes," to the successes! The fact your whole family is willing to help you further your knowledge and hobby is rather "beautiful" to put it lightly!

Congrats on the up and coming baby! This is a fantastic hobby to bring your children into. When my daughter was first born it was hard for me to have time, getting back into the hobby a few years later on she's more than willing to learn and help out! Something great to bring everyone together, even if they say "that's all you." :wink:

I know I'm taking it back a minute, however as far as the PVC idea went I could still imagine it working, granted your idea now is taking full flight and I enjoy watching you flower the idea. That being said, if you try and go the PVC route next time or for another tank LIL maybe a few pipes for caves in a diaginal direction than fitted into the same type of mesh plastic, added styrofoam for that "rock wall look" and than finished off with your light cement. Just a suggestion for later use, or heck I may try it! lol

Kudos on all the blessings and I look forward to seeing this project finished, thanks for keeping us in tune! :thumb:


----------



## Agridion

zade said:


> I won't lie I've enjoyed everything about this thread up to this point. From the "mistakes," to the successes! The fact your whole family is willing to help you further your knowledge and hobby is rather "beautiful" to put it lightly!


Thanks Zade! It's been a lot of work so far. I am extremely nervous to put the concrete onto my current design because I really like how it is turning out and if it gets messed up then it will be hard to refrain from throwing a hammer through my tank!. LOL 


> Congrats on the up and coming baby! This is a fantastic hobby to bring your children into. When my daughter was first born it was hard for me to have time, getting back into the hobby a few years later on she's more than willing to learn and help out! Something great to bring everyone together, even if they say "that's all you." :wink:


Yeah that is what I am afraid of.... Having no time to work on the tank once the baby is here so I have a lot of drive to finish it off now. That's good to hear that after a few years your daughter wanted to help out with your obsession (I mean hobby ). I hope mine will be the same way.


> I know I'm taking it back a minute, however as far as the PVC idea went I could still imagine it working, granted your idea now is taking full flight and I enjoy watching you flower the idea. That being said, if you try and go the PVC route next time or for another tank LIL maybe a few pipes for caves in a diaginal direction than fitted into the same type of mesh plastic, added styrofoam for that "rock wall look" and than finished off with your light cement. Just a suggestion for later use, or heck I may try it! lol


I like what you are describing, having the looks and the functionality, since most people's backgrounds look like a stacked pile of rocks which may look more natural to the Mbuna's landscape but IMHO that's where it ends... with looks. I am sure my background will look more like some sort of alien landscape then the bottom of the Lake Malawi but at least it will be functional. If I sent up another tank (if my wife doesn't choke me when I mention another tank) I will have to try that idea. If you get around to it first send me some pictures. I would love to see it.

I guess I am going for this kind of look:








http://www.holydieexplorer.com/the-...que/view-under-the-national-park-lake-malawi/


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## Agridion

So here is what I accomplished yesterday after my other posts:

These are my three rock towers that will be inside of my tank.








Another angle








Front view from inside the tank









Sunday I will cut the holes in the background and begin applying the concrete to the 3 middle test subjects. If it doesn't work with those then I will have to figure out how to coat my background. I sure hope it does.


----------



## zade

Yea good idea on the "test subjects." This way you can coat, and "play" in the cement getting your technique down that way when it comes to actually doing your background you arn't exactly walking blind. That being said, I know your working towards the "lighter" aspect of things, but if it turns out that your "light cement" (sorry spaced name, been a long day) doesn't work you can always use Drylok, many on this forum have used it with great results (though I know it wont be as light as you'd like).

Like I said I'm loosing my mind in the mess of today, what are you planning on using as substrate?

Let's keep our fingers crossed! :fish:


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## Agridion

I'm on my cell with my parents out to eat so I'm going to keep this short and ill write some more later. How would I use drylok to fill the gaps in? I thought Drylok is more of a paint.


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## zade

Yes more of a latex waterproofer than anything, however as I said many folk on this site use it for their backgrounds. I've known a few people who just "glob it on" getting to those hard to reach places. But from the end result of 3D DIY Backgrounds on this website it looks rather on point. However when it came to that piping, cement, drylok idea I'd use the cement to mainly coat and use the drylok in those hard to reach spots. There are others and other threads that can give you a more detailed account about the use of Drylok.


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## Will1983

dont forget to wear rubber gloves when using the concrete, cement burns!


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## Agridion

What!!! So I can't do a 'concrete' mud mask? damnit! :wink: Thanks Will. That's a good reminder for everyone. I also have a half mask respirator to wear when handling the dry Portland. I'm getting read to cut all of my cave entrances then it's mixing time! I'll be keeping my fingers crossed.


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## Agridion

So I put my first coat onto two of the center structures. It looks as if I will have to do at least 4 (possibly 5) coats to cover the structures completely rotating them 90 degrees between coats. I figure after I get the whole structure coated I can worry about how I want the holes to look. Currently they look a little square. I'll keep everyone posted as this process evolves. Also the the concrete is actaully more brown looking then the pictures make them look.


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## Agridion

I decided to use tape to determine where I wanted the entrances to the caves marked with blue tape. I also figure that I will either paint the back of my tank black or hang a sheet to make all of the caves dark and to avoid seeing drywall when you look into a cave. Do you think there are to many caves? The final product will be a lot less obvious then the blue tape. Also when I add the concrete it will make the cave entrances smaller then what they currently are.


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## roke28

any updates opcorn:


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## Agridion

Here is a short update with a few pictures. So far I have 5 coats of concrete on the 3 center pieces. I am really liking how they are turning out, I sure hope they sink! LOL Yesterday I put the first coat on the base of the caves in the backdrop. Picture below is showing the backside of the backdrop.








Now I'm currently working on the backdrops. Center pieces are standing upright in the picture below. They look a little blotchy in the picture because I just put some fresh brown concrete onto them. Fresh concrete is always darker.








Sorry for the blurry picture it was getting dark out tonight so I had to snap it fast.


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## Rick_Lindsey

That's looking pretty cool! I like the look of this cichlid-condo quite a bit better than the lava-rock gutter one. Awesome!

-Rick (the armchair aquarist)


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## zade

It's looking real good bro, I can't wait to see it submerged in water. Keep up the good work. =D>


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## Agridion

Thanks Zade and Rick_Lindsey!



Rick_Lindsey said:


> That's looking pretty cool! I like the look of this cichlid-condo quite a bit better than the lava-rock gutter one.


Ha ha you are totally right. Although I'm sure if I went with the gutter lava-rock design I would have been done over a month ago but I wanted something unique.


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## Norm66

:thumb:

Looking good!


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## cantrell00

Agridion...

Did you settle on mbuna?

Not to be a debbie downer but catching a fish will prove to be VERY difficult with that in your tank..

Just something to consider... Very cool concept though.


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## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> Agridion...
> Did you settle on mbuna?
> Not to be a debbie downer but catching a fish will prove to be VERY difficult with that in your tank..
> Just something to consider... Very cool concept though.


HAHA yeah it will be, but I will accept that drawback for how cool it will look and function. I guess I will just have to be patient or try to outsmart them and catch them while they are eating in the morning.

Actaully I just plan on putting 1 arowana in there. LOL J/K Yep still planning on doing Mbuna's and Peacocks.


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## cantrell00

> I guess I will just have to be patient or try to outsmart them and catch them while they are eating in the morning.


Uhmmm ... best of luck... :lol:


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## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> Uhmmm ... best of luck... :lol:
Click to expand...

Thanks. That or I can always run a little AC current though the water for a second or two... That'll slow them down! :fish: ZAAAP!! J/K I am not really worried about having to catch my fish. All of my pannels are removable if I really and I mean really have to catch a fish. It would be no different then having a huge pile of rocks to take out.


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## Rick_Lindsey

Have you considered mounting your caves to the back of the tank with clips or magnets instead of siliconing them in place? that way you can just remove the caves when you need to catch fish.

-Rick (the armchair aquarist)


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## Agridion

Rick_Lindsey said:


> Have you considered mounting your caves to the back of the tank with clips or magnets instead of siliconing them in place? that way you can just remove the caves when you need to catch fish.
> -Rick (the armchair aquarist)


YEP. :wink: We are both on the same page! I don't plan on using anything to hold them in place except for gravity. I am trying to make the concrete mix just heavy enough to sink in water this way once positioned I won't have to do anything. If they sway by chance, which I don't suspect they will since they will be held semi-inplace by my filtration system I will use clips to hold them to the back of the tank.


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## cantrell00

piling sand around them at the base should help anchor them...


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## JimA

Agridion said:


> I guess I am going for this kind of look:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.holydieexplorer.com/the-...que/view-under-the-national-park-lake-malawi/


 Kind of the look I was going for also, just not the best pics.



















That being said I am not seeing it in what you have created? I do admire the effort and time you are putting into it, and I hope it works for you in the end. Congrats on the baby :thumb:


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## Agridion

JimA said:


> That being said I am not seeing it in what you have created? I do admire the effort and time you are putting into it, and I hope it works for you in the end. Congrats on the baby :thumb:


JimA your tank looks beautiful. Love the background, Looks really realistic. Did you buy it or make it (Stryofoam)? I do see what you mean, the smaller rocks in front of your backdrop do kind of look like the one in the picture but a lot smaller in proportion.

My background will never look that realistic. I am going for more of function plus its made from concrete.

So I tried putting the pieces into the tank to see how they line up with the filtration system and I am glad I did. I had to trim some a bit and cantrell00 after fitting them into the tank I decided I will not be moving those suckers unless I have too. They are DARN heavy. LOL










I don't like the the lines between the sections... I will have to figure out a way to get ride of those.


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## JimA

My background was bought on line, I wish it was a 180 gallon!

Can you slide the middle one over one notch to the left? Or you may be able depending on fish stuff some kind of plant life in the cracks to break it up a bit.


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## Agridion

JimA said:


> Can you slide the middle one over one notch to the left? Or you may be able depending on fish stuff some kind of plant life in the cracks to break it up a bit.


No I can't slide it over. I built the 3 center pieces in the 3 large gaps between the reverse undergravel filter, where the 3 feed streams come from. The gaps are larger then the others. :-( I plan on filling those gaps with concrete so that the line gaps kind of disappear. When I do this I plan on putting the blue tarp between them and filling the gaps with concrete.


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## cantrell00

> cantrell00 after fitting them into the tank I decided I will not be moving those suckers unless I have too. They are DARN heavy. LOL


Stay away from any aggressive mbuna species would be my advice... Rusty, Acei, Labs & fill out the rest with whatever hap/peacock that will work...


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## JimA

What are you thinking for fish anyway?


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## Agridion

cantrell00 why do you recommend staying away from Aggressive species? is to prevent fish from dieing in the caves?

JimA I was thinking of these fish because I like how they look. Now I have no idea how they will interact together though.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/peacocks.php
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/j_marlieri.php
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/a_calvus.php
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/l_caeruleus.php
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/p_demasoni.php

I am open for suggestions to alternative species as well and if some of these will not work please let me know as well.


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## cantrell00

More aggressive species will increase the times that you have to remove fish. I would definitely stay clear of demasoni...


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## justinf67

The julies and calvus are tanganyikans, which I wouldn't mix with lake malawi. Dems would be too much for peacocks. The yellow labs are the most fickle mbuna out there, and would be pretty safe with peacocks. Id picks what kind of tank u want. Peacocks and labs would be a good tank


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## justinf67

Stupid auto correct, sorry bout that


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## Agridion

Ok so no Demasoni. Why would you recommend not putting Tang in with the Lake Malawi?

So as for colorful fish which that would get along which ones would you guys recommend. I would like them to all get along.


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## justinf67

Agridion said:


> Ok so no Demasoni. Why would you recommend not putting Tang in with the Lake Malawi?
> 
> So as for colorful fish which that would get along which ones would you guys recommend. I would like them to all get along.


Gangs have different requirements than mbuna and peacocks. They come rom different lakes. Tangs can be shy and timid. Mixed with mbuna, they would be harassed to death.

What I recommend depends on whether u want to do mbuna or peacocks. If u do mbuna, then, I can give u recommendations onspecies that mix well. If u do peacocks, u can add labs as they are more docile like peacocks. Just depends on the route u wanna go. Peaceful mbuna would be labs, aceiand rusties. Then u could do a few more. Peacocks, u would go for all male.


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## spitefulpixi

I just read all of this thread and hopeing you got it finished and could you post some picks??? im intrested in doing something like this for my tanks! Kudos to you!!!


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## Agridion

spitefulpixi said:


> I just read all of this thread and hopeing you got it finished and could you post some picks??? im intrested in doing something like this for my tanks! Kudos to you!!!


spitefulpixi, I have some good news and some bad news. The good news, you can ask me anything about what I have done to create my backdrop and I would love to share. The bad news, I do not have any completed pictures because I am currently working on it. I post the pictures as I make progress. I should have the backdrop completed sometime early this week. From there I will have to fill the tank and soak the concrete to remove some of the alkalinity. While that is going on I will be creating the rest of my plumbing and setting up the sump which I now plan on using poret foam and plant the remainder of the sump with fast growing plants.


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## Agridion

Just an update.

I finished coating most of the backdrops. In the picture below am hoping to fill the gaps in between the panels. I hope they will fit in the tank after adding concrete between the panels.


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## malawi_boy

very impressive


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## Will1983

very nice any idea how much i weighs?

also what concrete mix did you use?


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## Agridion

Will1983 said:


> very nice any idea how much i*t* weighs?
> also what concrete mix did you use?


I'll have to weight the pieces when I get home. They are not super heavy. Maybe the large middle ones weigh 35 - 40 pounds. I hope they sink because Perlite floats. 
I used two different mix ratios of the ingredients below. A slightly heavier version and a lighter one.
1) Quickrite Portland Cemenet (Type 1 or 2) 
2) Play Sand (any kind will work)
3) Water
4) Perlite
5) Quikrete Concrete Acrylic Fortifier
6) Concrete Dye

The heavier mixture was 10 cups of (1), 5 cups of (2), 15 cups of (3), 1 cup (5), and add (4) until you get the right consistency you want. So it was a 2/1/3 ratio of Portland, Sand and water.
The lighter mix was a ratio 10/3/15 keeping everything else the same.


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## Agridion

Quick update. I weighed a few pieces and the heaviest piece weights 55 pounds.


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## Agridion

oops. I do not know how to delete a message. Sorry for the double post.


----------



## snoskiur

Couple of things...

Have you considered putting egg crate on the bottom before adding the caves, etc? It will help distribute the weight evenly and prevent any pressure areas from damaging the glass. You can just put it down under your sand or under your gravel. Works great for me.

Also, IMO, Calvus are fine with most Malawi fish. I've had Calvus with mine for a while and they do well as long as their not small enough to get eaten by larger fish. Calvus are pretty good at holding their own if they need to. I've even had Calvus fry in my Malawi tank from a spawn!

I have a batch of Yellow lab fry that are growing out if you want to get a few of them. I also have Black Convicts (which, surprisingly, have done great in my tank for years) growing out and a batch of hybrids (I know, I know...). They are a mix between a red zebra female and a Red Top Chilumba male (who is for sale, btw). The male may be a fish you'd be interested in getting from me as well... He's a little aggressive, but he'd be fine in a large tank with caves like yours...

Good luck, lookin good!


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## Agridion

Snoskiur,
That's great to hear about the Calvus working out well with your Malawi fish. I really like their look especially the yellow ones. Considering my tank has over 85 caves (36 just in the 3 center rock structure pieces) I hope they will have enough hiding spots. he he  That's awesome that you had baby ones spawn! I hope that my tank will be full of babies after I get it up and running.



snoskiur said:


> Have you considered putting egg crate on the bottom before adding the caves, etc? It will help distribute the weight evenly and prevent any pressure areas from damaging the glass. You can just put it down under your sand or under your gravel. Works great for me.


I would definitely be adding egg crate to the bottom of my caves if there were any sharp edges but since all of the surfaces that rest against the glass are flat and extremely smooth I am not worried about them scratching or cracking the glass. I took a Rasp and ground out all of the rough edges and high points. Also the fish will not be able to tip over the concrete structures since they are very well grounded.



> I have a batch of Yellow lab fry that are growing out if you want to get a few of them. I also have Black Convicts (which, surprisingly, have done great in my tank for years) growing out and a batch of hybrids (I know, I know...). They are a mix between a red zebra female and a Red Top Chilumba male (who is for sale, btw). The male may be a fish you'd be interested in getting from me as well... He's a little aggressive, but he'd be fine in a large tank with caves like yours..


I would be interested in the Yellow labs for sure. I want a bunch more (3 -4 females and 1 male). My only female Yellow Lab (who currently is in my 55) is holding. So I am curious as to which male fertilized her eggs and what the babies will look like.

I'm finished up the backdrop. I sure hope it fits! If not I will have to shave it down a bit more. I should have another update within a day or so. I still have to drill the holes into the spay bar and the RUGF before I put the backdrop into the tank.


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## Agridion

Well I have some good news and of course some bad news. Good news is the backdrop looks awesome in the tank and you can hardly see where the panels end and the next one starts.  It is exactly the look and functionality I want. But the bad news is now that I have everything coated it lines up a bit different then it did in the garage and its slightly to large. I can't fit the last panel in. GRRR :x Well tomorrow I will be taking them out and shaving down the sides with my handy rasp of them all to fit the last piece in.

I also will not be taking them out once they go in unless absolutely necessary. So I we will see what troubles that brings as I move forward.

This is what the back side looks like: The panels are dry so once wet it will look darker.








I can't get the last panel in.  So I have some work to do tomorrow. I spray misted them with water to get them a little darker. So the colors in the picture below are close to real life when it's wet. The last piece I can't fit in is on the far left.


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## bou

wow.... look more and more natural...
surely superb with water 
:dancing: :dancing: :dancing:


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## Agridion

Well I filed down the 5 backdrop pieces so now they fit in the tank even with a little clearance. I decided to fill the tank to begin the neutralizing process and guess what!... Just when you think you are done.... 6 out of the 8 pieces float! GRRRR  So frustrating!!! I'm going to give them a few days in the tank to remove as much of the alkalinity as I can before I take them all out to add heavy concrete to the bases of them all. I guess 55 pounds wasn't enough to counter act the buoyancy of the Perlite. Maybe after sitting in water they will absorb some of the water and sink... ha ha yeah right!


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## JimA

Sorry but I would have been done with this project 6 pages ago, or I would have scrapt it all together and just put some **** rocks in the tank and called it good :lol:

I admire your patience or your will to not give up trying to make it work :thumb: ! BTW when is your wife due?


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## cantrell00

> BTW when is your wife due?


He will have a house full by the time this tank is finished! :lol:

Sorry Agridiron. Some of us just can't help ourselves..


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## Agridion

Thanks Guys!  Yeah I probably will have a house full of young ones before this FISH CONDO sees fish!

There was some good news that came out of today though! I had a chance to test my two Koralia Magnum 6's and they do exactly what I wanted them to! I have good water movement through all of the cave entrances.


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## Agridion

JimA said:


> BTW when is your wife due?


January 15th.


----------



## Agridion

Quick update before I head off to my niece's pool party. All of the pieces sink now and are currently soaking in water to remove all of the high alkalinity. Its strange I get this really fine white material that settles out around the newly cured concrete pieces but stops precipitating out after the piece has been been sitting for a day and the water is changed. Its not a concern just strange. I'll post up some pictures up probably after a few water changes.

Anyways for a substrate I was thinking of using fine crushed coral or sand. Which one is better and why? Also any other recommendations as to what to use for a substrate and why?


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## Agridion

Water filled, everything sinks and in the neutralization process.


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## Norm66

Looks great! I think pool filter sand would match your background nicely. Plus it's cheap and easy to clean.


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## Agridion

Norm66 said:


> Looks great! I think pool filter sand would match your background nicely. Plus it's cheap and easy to clean.


Thanks! I picked up 6 bags of this really white PFS yesterday and your right it is cheap. :thumb:


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## Rhinox

Man that looks really great, but how are you ever going to catch a fish out of there if you need to?


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## Agridion

Rhinox said:


> Man that looks really great, but how are you ever going to catch a fish out of there if you need to?


Baby steps.... I still thinking of exactly how I. Want my sump return to be. Lol :lol: I have a couple of ideas. One is I can put a net at the entrance way of a cave them tip a back drop forward and put my hand back there to scare it into the net or put a net. It works well in my 55.


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## Agridion

This is a picture of the back side (taken when I was working on them I'm the garage). The panels just rest in the tank and can easily be tilted forward when under water. The heaviest panel weighs 60 pounds out of water and 3 to 5 pounds when the tank is full. Some of the caves holes interconnect inside the structure. Those few caves may be more difficult to capture a fish.


----------



## Agridion

I started up the sump pumps today and they produce a LOT of flow! I had to remove the center strip in my 1500 glass-holes overflow box to accommodate the large flow rate. I realize that I only have ~3 feet of head instead of 5 like I originally thought. I also have large amounts of air coming into the sump tank that make a gurgling sound and occasionally rock the piping. What ways can I try to quite this down and the glass-holes overflow?
(Sand will be the last thing that I add. I also added the second foam piece on the right to stop air from getting past on the bottom. I haven't added the one on the left yet.)








Sump close up








Back of the tank plumbing








I plan on hooking up the sump overflow once I have the sump quieted down and the tank moved next to the wall.


----------



## cantrell00

Agridion said:


> I started up the sump pumps today and they produce a LOT of flow! I had to remove the center strip in my 1500 glass-holes overflow box to accommodate the large flow rate. I realize that I only have ~3 feet of head instead of 5 like I originally thought. I also have large amounts of air coming into the sump tank that make a gurgling sound and occasionally rock the piping. What ways can I try to quite this down and the glass-holes overflow?
> (Sand will be the last thing that I add. I also added the second foam piece on the right to stop air from getting past on the bottom. I haven't added the one on the left yet.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sump close up
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Back of the tank plumbing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I plan on hooking up the sump overflow once I have the sump quieted down and the tank moved next to the wall.


By removing the baffle, you have basically removed the Durso from the overflow... To quieten it down, put the bafflee plate back in & throttle back the output of your pumps. Afetr you do that, you can fine tune the gurgling further by moving the tubes up or down in the street L's... Pushing them down (I think) injects more air into the drain...


----------



## xWingman48

Agridion said:


> Back of the tank plumbing


I can't really tell from the pictures; do you have your pump output all going behind the caves (as opposed to out in the open space like a traditional spray bar)?

If so, I'm curious to hear how that would work for you. It would seem to me that you'd end up with a lot of detrius out in the open space. (unless you're installing powerheads or something to keep water moving across the sand).

The setup is starting to come together really nicely. I'll bet you can't wait to get this bad boy stocked...


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## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> By removing the baffle, you have basically removed the Durso from the overflow... To quieten it down, put the bafflee plate back in & throttle back the output of your pumps. Afetr you do that, you can fine tune the gurgling further by moving the tubes up or down in the street L's... Pushing them down (I think) injects more air into the drain...


Shoot! Even when I turn off one of the pumps and only run one Rio 17HF there is more flow then the overflow box can handle with the baffle inside and I have two. Would it be possible to drill holes into the baffle to create more flow or will that just make it nosier?

I also have a fair amount of noise from the water and air that enter the sump. I was thinking of adding a vent pipe to separate the air from the water before the water enters the sump. Do you think that would help quite down the noise/ turbulence coming from the water entering the sump?


----------



## Agridion

xWingman48 said:


> I can't really tell from the pictures; do you have your pump output all going behind the caves (as opposed to out in the open space like a traditional spray bar)?


Yep. I was going to go with a spray bar but decided that I wouldn't get the flow I wanted though all of the caves. I have two Koralia Magnum 6's on either end of the tank that circulate the flow within the tank and pull water through the caves on the outerwalls of the tank. I didn't have much water movement though the caves within the middle of the tank so I decided to put the sump returns (with holes drilled in the pipes) behind the center caves to push any waste out into the open part of the tank. This way all of my caves have a slight current moving though them removing any debris/waste.



> If so, I'm curious to hear how that would work for you. It would seem to me that you'd end up with a lot of detrius out in the open space. (unless you're installing powerheads or something to keep water moving across the sand).


I'll keep you posted! I hope it works out well. There is plenty of water movement in this tank! 



> The setup is starting to come together really nicely. I'll bet you can't wait to get this bad boy stocked...


Thanks! Yeah I am.


----------



## cantrell00

Agridion said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> By removing the baffle, you have basically removed the Durso from the overflow... To quieten it down, put the bafflee plate back in & throttle back the output of your pumps. Afetr you do that, you can fine tune the gurgling further by moving the tubes up or down in the street L's... Pushing them down (I think) injects more air into the drain...
> 
> 
> 
> Shoot! Even when I turn off one of the pumps and only run one Rio 17HF there is more flow then the overflow box can handle with the baffle inside and I have two. Would it be possible to drill holes into the baffle to create more flow or will that just make it nosier?
> 
> I also have a fair amount of noise from the water and air that enter the sump. I was thinking of adding a vent pipe to separate the air from the water before the water enters the sump. Do you think that would help quite down the noise/ turbulence coming from the water entering the sump?
Click to expand...

What is the rated output of the 17FH @ 5'?

The long drains & 90's coming off your overflow & into your sump is what is causing all of the air gurgling in your sump. I had the same problem on a 120. Ideally, you want the water draining straight down & into your sump with as few bends, 90's, 45's etc as you can manage.

Having two lines of different distances from the overflow to the sump is also complicating things relative to noise, gurgling, etc..

Not what you want to hear for sure but there is no doubt in my mind as to what you are having flow & noise problems...


----------



## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> What is the rated output of the 17FH @ 5'?


At 4' its 840 GPH and at 6' its 660 GPH So I figure with both pumps on I am pushing the limit of my overflow box's design.... Which I am ok with. And with 1 pump running I should be fine with having the baffle in the overflow box but for some reason it still doesn't offer enough flow.



> The long drains & 90's coming off your overflow & into your sump is what is causing all of the air gurgling in your sump. I had the same problem on a 120. Ideally, you want the water draining straight down & into your sump with as few bends, 90's, 45's etc as you can manage.


What did you do to fix this issue? I used Sweep elbows which have a much lower pressure disturbance then normal 90 degree bends. 


> Having two lines of different distances from the overflow to the sump is also complicating things relative to noise, gurgling, etc..


Shoot! Well I can't fix this issue. I have to have them enter both sides of the sump.


> Not what you want to hear for sure but there is no doubt in my mind as to what you are having flow & noise problems...


I am guessing there isn't a quick fix to this issue. I am going to test out my vent piping design to see if it quiets the water entering the sump. Hopefully I will quite down two of the pipes and will only be left with the issue of the overflow box. Even when I run one pump it is still pretty noisy.


----------



## cantrell00

Agridion said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is the rated output of the 17FH @ 5'?
> 
> 
> 
> At 4' its 840 GPH and at 6' its 660 GPH So I figure with both pumps on I am pushing the limit of my overflow box's design.... Which I am ok with. And with 1 pump running I should be fine with having the baffle in the overflow box but for some reason it still doesn't offer enough flow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The long drains & 90's coming off your overflow & into your sump is what is causing all of the air gurgling in your sump. I had the same problem on a 120. Ideally, you want the water draining straight down & into your sump with as few bends, 90's, 45's etc as you can manage.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What did you do to fix this issue? I used Sweep elbows which have a much lower pressure disturbance then normal 90 degree bends.
> 
> 
> 
> Having two lines of different distances from the overflow to the sump is also complicating things relative to noise, gurgling, etc..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Shoot! Well I can't fix this issue. I have to have them enter both sides of the sump.
> 
> 
> 
> Not what you want to hear for sure but there is no doubt in my mind as to what you are having flow & noise problems...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am guessing there isn't a quick fix to this issue. I am going to test out my vent piping design to see if it quiets the water entering the sump. Hopefully I will quite down two of the pipes and will only be left with the issue of the overflow box. Even when I run one pump it is still pretty noisy.
Click to expand...

There is a forum @ glass-holes.com. I would post the pictures that you have here & ask for recommendations.. The owner will respond with suggestions...


----------



## cdavitt

this thread has been a great read. Kudos to you for your persistence. I think I would of settled on plan B or C and not be on Plan G.

On a side note, I stumbled across this article. Very similar, but a lot more basic. Figure it might help those of us trying to do something similar.

http://www.duboisi.com/diy/BNdiygrotto/bndiygrotto.htm


----------



## Agridion

cdavitt said:


> this thread has been a great read. Kudos to you for your persistence. I think I would of settled on plan B or C and not be on Plan G.


Thanks!!! Ha Ha funny 8) , there sure were a bunch of them but I love my final product!


> On a side note, I stumbled across this article. Very similar, but a lot more basic. Figure it might help those of us trying to do something similar.
> http://www.duboisi.com/diy/BNdiygrotto/bndiygrotto.htm


I think my child could have built that Grotto design! LOL I saw that design before I built mine but wanted to build something unique, a little less 1 dimensional, I personally didn't like the look of all of those volcanic rocks and I also couldn't hide my Koralia Magnum 6's behind those pipes, but to each their own. :wink:


----------



## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> There is a forum @ glass-holes.com. I would post the pictures that you have here & ask for recommendations.. The owner will respond with suggestions...


Great idea cantrell00. I talked (emailed and had a phone conversation) with Mike Kirkman senior design engineer of Glass-holes (great guy). He confirmed that I should add a vent to the sump inlets to separate the air from the water before it enters the tank. He is also sending me a piece of Enkamat to quite down my overflow. I'll keep everyone posted as to how that works out. He was also shocked to hear that my overflow box couldn't handle all of the flow and thinks that my horizontal pipe section could be trapping air and causing back pressure, and should be fixed when I add the vents. I hope so. His number is... J/K


----------



## cantrell00

Agridion said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a forum @ glass-holes.com. I would post the pictures that you have here & ask for recommendations.. The owner will respond with suggestions...
> 
> 
> 
> Great idea cantrell00. I talked (emailed and had a phone conversation) with Mike Kirkman senior design engineer of Glass-holes (great guy). He confirmed that I should add a vent to the sump inlets to separate the air from the water before it enters the tank. He is also sending me a piece of Enkamat to quite down my overflow. I'll keep everyone posted as to how that works out. He was also shocked to hear that my overflow box couldn't handle all of the flow and thinks that my horizontal pipe section could be trapping air and causing back pressure, and should be fixed when I add the vents. I hope so. His number is... J/K
Click to expand...

I know Mike & I agree, he is a great guy.

What he is telling you makes sense. If air is trapped in the drain line, it is most definitely restricting flow. It is in effect making the ID of the line smaller.

The enkemat will help is quieting the "trickle" noise in the overflow itself.. Will also help in keeping smaller critters out as well...

His number is in my contacts on my cell phone.. :wink:

Best of luck...


----------



## Agridion

Well I found a way to silence my overflow box and the inlets to my sump even with flexible piping, no valves, two elbows and a Tee. It's almost silent (almost but not perfectly silent).


----------



## cantrell00

Agridion said:


> Well I found a way to silence my overflow box and the inlets to my sump even with flexible piping, no valves, two elbows and a Tee. It's almost silent (almost but not perfectly silent).


SWEET!


----------



## Agridion

Here is a picture of my modified sump inlets. I only have one pump running at this time but as you can see there are hardly any bubbles entering my sump as well as the flow is pretty laminar. I have put things inside the 2" return piping downstream of the Tee to slow the flow down. I will probably have to clean these weekly or biweekly once the tank is up and running.... Not sure yet. But if for some reason the flow does get restricted I have the 1.5" bypass for the flow to get diverted and will notify me that they need cleaning. On the 1.5" bypass I also a loose piece of foam in there to act as a muffler to damper the sound even further.


----------



## Agridion

Here is a drawing of the innards of my Sump Muffler!










Eventually I am going to have to come up with a better solution then the Poret foam as the first part of my muffler as I feel it will get dirty quite quickly. At least I will know when it is to dirty and the water exits 1.5" relief line.


----------



## paradigmsk8er

From my experience, using the foam to silence it isn't very consistent. Down in the sump you probably won't have as many problems...but I gave it a shot on mine when I was going through all the methods to silence, and the foam just picked up detritus at a random rate and thus the flow rate changed...causing noise, no noise, some noise, back ups, etc.

In the sump you'll have a bit more flexibility but I have a feeling it will still get dirty, QUICK.

Have you looked at playing with gate valves to "tune" your drain pipe? You could do a modified bean/animal with a gate valve, but instead of having the gate valve at the top of the drains right below the overflow box, you could just fit it at the end of your pipe closer to the sump


----------



## Agridion

paradigmsk8er said:


> From my experience, using the foam to silence it isn't very consistent. Down in the sump you probably won't have as many problems...but I gave it a shot on mine when I was going through all the methods to silence, and the foam just picked up detritus at a random rate and thus the flow rate changed...causing noise, no noise, some noise, back ups, etc.
> 
> In the sump you'll have a bit more flexibility but I have a feeling it will still get dirty, QUICK.
> 
> Have you looked at playing with gate valves to "tune" your drain pipe? You could do a modified bean/animal with a gate valve, but instead of having the gate valve at the top of the drains right below the overflow box, you could just fit it at the end of your pipe closer to the sump


Yeah I figured that the foam will clog fast, but the foam is only part of the silencing mechanism. All of the straws work really well. I might try a mixture of coffee straws and regular straws to produce a higher back pressure Where can I purchase a gate valve for PVC? The ball valves were impossible to turn. Do you have a picture of what you did that silenced your down comers from the tank?


----------



## Clink51

Its been a long time. im curious to know as to how the tank is doing and coming along?? u have motivated me to redo my 29 gallon tank... much MUCH smaller then what u have but she is my baby.

PS: your 40 gallon sump looks like my 5 gallong tank next to my 29


----------



## xWingman48

If I had to guess, I'm betting that baby time finally came. He's probably too deep in diapers and bottles to make many more posts....


----------



## Clink51

i just read this entire thread in 2 days, the baby aint supposed to arrive till Jan 15th lol. im curious to see how everything cured and how the sand in the tank looks with the lights running


----------



## cantrell00

Clink51 said:


> i just read this entire thread in 2 days, the baby aint supposed to arrive till Jan 15th lol. im curious to see how everything cured and how the sand in the tank looks with the lights running


Well, he is buried in the preperations then... Baby's room, painting, decorating, crib, etc etc etc.. Thank God those days are behind me...


----------



## Clink51

That tank of his is big enough to be a nursery....minus the water of course


----------



## dillon0990

any updates?


----------



## Agridion

Clink51 said:


> Its been a long time. im curious to know as to how the tank is doing and coming along?? u have motivated me to redo my 29 gallon tank... much MUCH smaller then what u have but she is my baby.
> 
> PS: your 40 gallon sump looks like my 5 gallong tank next to my 29
> 
> i just read this entire thread in 2 days, the baby aint supposed to arrive till Jan 15th lol. im curious to see how everything cured and how the sand in the tank looks with the lights running


Clink51 I am glad I gave you the motivation to redo your tank. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m glad I have stuck though and should soon be reaping the benefits of a beautiful fish filled fish tank.

I guess itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s about time I give you guys an update. I'll have to take a few pictures of it tonight and post them in a few days.... Unfortunately I don't have the lights up or fish in there yet.... Go figure right! But I took a few weeks off from the tank to let the concrete neutralize and to stop leaching this milky white material into the water. Currently I have the tank pushed back against the wall to where it is suppose to be, sand in the tank, electrical extension cords hung under the tank, Working with Mike from Glass-holes to procure some Enkamat which helps quite the overflow box (he has been a huge help), redesigned the sump mufflers (I can post a drawing if you want) so they will not clog very easily but still quite the sump intakes, hooked up the automatic tank fill, and ordered some all 316SS hose clamps for the ones that are already beginning to rust on my check valves directly upstream of my pumps discharge. Tonight or tomorrow I plan on replacing the rusting hose clamps with the new ones, hooking up my sump overflow drain to the common homeÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s pvc drain system and beginning to start a seeded fishless tank cycle, IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m picking up the ammonia tonight. The lights I and tank cover I plan to work on while the tank is cycling.

On the note of a continuous slow tank fill system, how much raw untreated faucet water is acceptable to add into a tank (with chlorine) before it affects the fish and bacteria, a gallon a day, two a day, 2 a day for a tank system with around 210 gallons of water? I am not sure if I just want to use it to maintain the water level due to evaporation or if I want to fill it a bit faster and have some water constantly drain from my sump to the sewer minimizing water changes. But the water I add will be untreated, besides chlorine my tap water is perfect for the cichlids.


----------



## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> Clink51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> i just read this entire thread in 2 days, the baby aint supposed to arrive till Jan 15th lol. im curious to see how everything cured and how the sand in the tank looks with the lights running
> 
> 
> 
> Well, he is buried in the preperations then... Baby's room, painting, decorating, crib, etc etc etc.. Thank God those days are behind me...
Click to expand...

cantrell00.... What you don't miss changing the babies diaper and waking up in the middle of the night to quite the screaming baby? :lol: For my wife having this baby is like my fish tank to me, she has already decorated our recently moved out roommates bathroom into a 3 year olds dream bathroom. She has taken the fish theme and has incorporated it into a fish curtain, fish floor mat, fish soap and hand conditioner dispenser, fish toothbrush holder and Kleenex boxÃ¢â‚¬Â¦. I think I have finally broken herÃ¢â‚¬Â¦. LOL IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m afraid to think of what she has in store for the babies room!


----------



## Agridion

Picture with sand in the tank. The floating Coke bottle is my way of measuring out my automatic slow drip fill system. It looks as if I am filling at a rate of 1 gallon per day.


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## cantrell00

Looks good Man...

Best of luck with the little one. I wouldn't change anything with mine but those first 3 years were tough.. :thumb:


----------



## Agridion

This is what I ended up using to quite the sump inlets. The orifice plate is so much cheaper then a gate or ball valve.


----------



## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> Looks good Man...
> 
> Best of luck with the little one. I wouldn't change anything with mine but those first 3 years were tough.. :thumb:


Thanks man. I'm excited and scared. My whole world is going to change.


----------



## cantrell00

> My whole world is going to change.


Without a doubt. You can't comprehend having a child until you have one. Then you can't comprehend life without one. Cherish it. It goes by quickly.


----------



## monisaab

cantrell00 said:


> My whole world is going to change.
> 
> 
> 
> Without a doubt. You can't comprehend having a child until you have one. Then you can't comprehend life without one. Cherish it. It goes by quickly.
Click to expand...

+1


----------



## Agridion

I currently have an untreated continuous slow drip (a drop every second) into my tank from the water lines to minimize the effect of evaporation and possibly some day I may increase the rate to provide a continuous water changing system (I also have an overflow from my sump to the sewer). The tap water that I use is perfect for cichlids besides the chlorine. Will adding a drop every second (a little more then a gallon a day) to an aquarium system that has over 210 gallons of water impact the fish? Also what would be the maximum rate that I could safely increase my continuous fill to before the chlorine affects the bacteria and fish? Or do I have to go out and buy an inline filter that removes chlorine? The continuous drip system is the 1/4" Mister Landscaping products.


----------



## Rick_Lindsey

My understanding is that with chlorine, a slow drip will not be problematic, but that chloramine may be more so.

-Rick (the armchair aquarist, who offers salt with his advice since he hasn't built or used a continuous drip system, and suggests taking a look at fmueller's website)


----------



## cantrell00

Agridion said:


> I currently have an untreated continuous slow drip (a drop every second) into my tank from the water lines to minimize the effect of evaporation and possibly some day I may increase the rate to provide a continuous water changing system (I also have an overflow from my sump to the sewer). The tap water that I use is perfect for cichlids besides the chlorine. Will adding a drop every second (a little more then a gallon a day) to an aquarium system that has over 210 gallons of water impact the fish? Also what would be the maximum rate that I could safely increase my continuous fill to before the chlorine affects the bacteria and fish? Or do I have to go out and buy an inline filter that removes chlorine? The continuous drip system is the 1/4" Mister Landscaping products.


I would start off by having your tap water analyzed to find out what potential concentrations of chlorine & chloamine that you may be dealing with...

You could always put a RO unit in-line a drip from it. It would need to be sized to filter whatever rate you desire adding to the tank in 24 hrs.


----------



## zade

I can tell you from a guy who just witnessed the birth of his second child and has collected two smaller tanks in that time...... some times those long nights, despite the crying and diaper changing is a great bonding thing. I'll work a bit, pick up my daughter and explain to her my step by step, she'll giggle and fall back to sleep... just to wake up a bit sooner, at that point I've managed to get a bit further.

Either way brother, things are looking good, glad to see the sand take hold. Wish I could offer better advice, good luck with the drip.


----------



## jchild40

Agridion said:


> I currently have an untreated continuous slow drip (a drop every second) into my tank from the water lines to minimize the effect of evaporation and possibly some day I may increase the rate to provide a continuous water changing system (I also have an overflow from my sump to the sewer). The tap water that I use is perfect for cichlids besides the chlorine. Will adding a drop every second (a little more then a gallon a day) to an aquarium system that has over 210 gallons of water impact the fish? Also what would be the maximum rate that I could safely increase my continuous fill to before the chlorine affects the bacteria and fish? Or do I have to go out and buy an inline filter that removes chlorine? The continuous drip system is the 1/4" Mister Landscaping products.


I've asked the same question before and like others have said here; with chlorine you'll be fine. At the rate you're adding water, the chlorine will dissipate before it builds up.

The one thing I was cautioned is that if you're water department switches from chlorine to chloramine. I don't believe that they have notify the community when they do. I'm fortunate enough to have my father in law working at the water department.


----------



## Agridion

Well today I installed a GAC filter for the Aquarium. Thanks everyone for your help. Unfortunately I have run into a HUGE problem! :-? I think/pretty darn sure I have a small pine-hole leak about a drop every 10 minutes (if that) on the bottom front left inside corner of my tank. of my stand from inside the stand. I noticed that there was water along the inside seam and traced it up to the top I don't know when or how it started or even what to do now.  :? If it is truly a leak does this mean I am going to have to reseal the primary and secondary seals? or could I just get away with resealing the primary seal? Tips suggestions please.


----------



## Agridion

I decided that when my brother and I moved the tank, full of sand and my backdrop against the wall, we loosened up a seam which is what was causing my tank to have a small leak. This past week I have tore down the tank, scrapped out all of the silicone because I couldnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t tell were on the bottom the leak was coming from, and resiliconed the tank last night. ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s surprising how much better a job I did at siliconing the second time around. The first time I put way to much on the bottom seams. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m going to wait two days before trying another leak test. I hope it hold and if so (fingers crossed) it will only set me back a week.

Oh we found out on Wednesday we are having a boy. :thumb:


----------



## jontwhale

boys rock!! oh and good luck!


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## dillon0990

Congrats on the boy!! im ready to see this tank done!!


----------



## cantrell00

> Oh we found out on Wednesday we are having a boy. :thumb:


That is AWESOME.. I have two. 11 & 17. Really cool! Congratulations.[/quote]


----------



## cichlid_baby

Agridion said:


> I decided that when my brother and I moved the tank, full of sand and my backdrop against the wall, we loosened up a seam which is what was causing my tank to have a small leak. This past week I have tore down the tank, scrapped out all of the silicone because I couldnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t tell were on the bottom the leak was coming from, and resiliconed the tank last night. ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s surprising how much better a job I did at siliconing the second time around. The first time I put way to much on the bottom seams. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m going to wait two days before trying another leak test. I hope it hold and if so (fingers crossed) it will only set me back a week.
> 
> Oh we found out on Wednesday we are having a boy. :thumb:


AWESOME build and much props to your persistence... but this time around... I hope you used some silicone primer before resealing...

Even though you said you scrapped it all off.. it's very difficult to remove "all" the silicone film and residue.... so I caution... putting new silicone over old silicone will not form a very strong bond unless you use silicone primer to treat the old silicone that is still stuck on the glass ...


----------



## Agridion

jontwhale, dillon0990, cantrell00 Thanks guys! I am looking forward to meeting him.


cichlid_baby said:


> AWESOME build and much props to your persistence... but this time around... I hope you used some silicone primer before resealing...
> 
> Even though you said you scrapped it all off.. it's very difficult to remove "all" the silicone film and residue.... so I caution... putting new silicone over old silicone will not form a very strong bond unless you use silicone primer to treat the old silicone that is still stuck on the glass ...


cichlid_Baby would using IP alcohol or Acetone be a silicone primer? If not then I didn't use one!  But I did make 4 passes of scraping off the silicone. I even went around with a flash light to reflect the light to make sure I scrapped it all off. I can't even describe how tedious that was. So I siliconed the tank Thursday evening with the help of my wife. You can never be to prepared/safe for siliconeing the tank! (We look awful in this picture but had to post it... Baby bump included! Arf :dancing: )








The first time I used 2 whole tubes and this time just under 1. Man Did I put way to much on the first time. After talking with a few silicone reps from Dow and Momentive I found out that silicone will expand 10% when submerged under water and that RTV over 1/4" think will take forever to dry. So sometimes less is more with silicone. 
Any how my buddy and I filled the tank Sunday afternoon with a garden hose... Fills up in less then 30 minutes. Well when filling the **** tank when it was almost full I saw the hose slipping and starting to move due to the force of the water so I rushed over there to grab it... Well I was two late and the water hit me in the chest and all over my face and shot over my head all over the ground. Well needless to say water (I wasn't sure how much) ran all down the front of my tank. So after cleaning up the mess and filling the tank I checked the spot that was leaking before and guess what! :x 








Water right where the leak was! (The leak had water running down the left inside seam) So at this point I wasn't sure if it was water from outside my tank or water from inside my tank getting out. I tried shoving paper towels in where the leak was and every 20 minutes I would replace it with a new one to determine if the leak rate was constant or would lessen over time. Well 20 minutes turned into 30 minutes, to 1 hour to 4 hours, and finally to nothing! :thumb:  . So as of after work today I declared the area in question to be caused by the **** hose coming alive and began getting my filtration running again. 
This is how my tank looks currently.








I'm going to wait a few days before I put the backdrop and sand back in... Just in-case....


----------



## Agridion

One question for you all.... When doing a fishless tank cycle do I have to heat the water or can I leave it room temperature? Currently my two heaters that I plan on using are being used for my other tanks that I will break down once I get this tank cycled. I was hoping on not having to buy another heater but if I have to I will. Will adding a heater just cut down on the time or is it absolutely necessary?


----------



## cantrell00

> Will adding a heater just cut down on the time or is it absolutely necessary?


Supposedly the bacteria will colonize faster at higher temps.. How much faster? Who know's? My opinion is you will be fine without it...

You mentioned other tanks.. Do they have established filters on them? If they do, transplant some media.. You may be able to get it fully cycled within a couple of weeks...


----------



## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> You mentioned other tanks.. Do they have established filters on them? If they do, transplant some media.. You may be able to get it fully cycled within a couple of weeks...


I have cleaned out some of the songes from my other tanks into my sump inlets in hopes to jump start the Poret foam. That should help right?


----------



## cantrell00

Agridion said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You mentioned other tanks.. Do they have established filters on them? If they do, transplant some media.. You may be able to get it fully cycled within a couple of weeks...
> 
> 
> 
> I have cleaned out some of the songes from my other tanks into my sump inlets in hopes to jump start the Poret foam. That should help right?
Click to expand...

Should help yes... If you could leave on in the sump, it would help more...

Bagging up some sand/substrate in panty hose & letting it "hang" in front of a return line works too...


----------



## Norm66

Congratulations on the upcoming baby boy!

Wow, glad you got your leak fixed. And that you found it when you did for that matter. Geez

I have to say that when I did a fishless cycle on my new 125 I had a ton of seed material and was originally doing it at about 76 degrees F. It really took off quickly once I bumped it up to 84-85 though. So yea, I think it'll go significantly faster for you if you have the tank heated. Unless you keep your house really warm anyway. ;^)

Cheers.


----------



## cantrell00

Dude... Not to get all weird but that is one of the strangest pictures I have ever seen.. Freaks me out a little... :lol:


----------



## Agridion

Norm66 said:


> Congratulations on the upcoming baby boy!


Thanks


> Wow, glad you got your leak fixed. And that you found it when you did for that matter. Geez


Thanks I was sweeting bullets when I had I saw the wet spot again when filling which ended up beging due to the hose coming alive.



> I have to say that when I did a fishless cycle on my new 125 I had a ton of seed material and was originally doing it at about 76 degrees F. It really took off quickly once I bumped it up to 84-85 though. So yea, I think it'll go significantly faster for you if you have the tank heated. Unless you keep your house really warm anyway. ;^)


How long would you say it took to cycle your tank?


----------



## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> Dude... Not to get all weird but that is one of the strangest pictures I have ever seen.. Freaks me out a little... :lol:


HA HA I was joking with my wife that I can wear my mask when I clean the babies diaper so that I won't smell ****. :lol:. Gotta love working in an oil refinery.

I did leave a few sponges from my filters in my sump in hopes that it will help seed my tank. I also was starting to seed my aquarium before I noticed the leak so could my sump have some bacteria still in there from a week ago? I did leave water in the sump but the water was stagnent.


----------



## xWingman48

Wow, a blown seam too in the middle of all of this?! This really is a **** build isn't it?

Congrats on having a boy. We just found out our next one is a boy as well. (Due in January).

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you that this re-seal sticks....


----------



## mrbee2828

Wow... insane build so far. I'm enjoying this as I am going through my first build now.


----------



## Agridion

xWingman48 said:


> Wow, a blown seam too in the middle of all of this?! This really is a #%$& build isn't it?


Yeah I was thinking the same last week. Hopefully I'm past all of the craziness.



xWingman48 said:


> Congrats on having a boy. We just found out our next one is a boy as well. (Due in January).


 Wow so we both have a boy due in January.  Hope your wife is doing well.


xWingman48 said:


> I'll keep my fingers crossed for you that this re-seal sticks....


Thanks! So far so good. No leak. This time around I feel like I did a much better job at siliconing the tank. I used half as much silicione this time around and really applied some force to push the silicone into the corners and seams. I should have taken some pictures. I'll have to post my a few pictures of my tap water filtration system setup soon.[/code]


mrbee2828 said:


> Wow... insane build so far. I'm enjoying this as I am going through my first build now.


Thanks I finally have everything back to the way it was over two weeks ago minus the leak. :thumb: Concrete and sand are back in and I have the tank seeded with material from several different tanks. It was rather frustrating putting the concrete back in because believe it or not... They floated when I put them back in. All of the water evaporated and formed air pockets so I had to rotate the pieces several times to get the air out and get them to sink. All that's left is to cover the tank with either glass or plexiglass and add the lights. I found a few extra heaters in the basement so I am heating the big tank in hopes to accelerate bacteria growth. I'm itching to get some :fish: in there!


----------



## Deano5488

Keep the updates coming opcorn:


----------



## Agridion

Ok so I just moved my cichlids in my 55 to make temporary housing for the Peacocks until the 185 gallon tank finishes cycling. I didn't really think much of some markings on my other mbuna's until now.... now that I have quite a bit of money invested in these peacocks camping out in the 55. What is your guys take on this: ( I posted this on another spot in the forum but I wanted to put it here to get your guys take on this as well)

Hey Guys / Gals I am not sure if this is the correct forum to post because I am not 100% sure these fish are sick. They don't seem to have any odd behavior, eat on a regular basis and seem to be quite lively. The thing my wife and I noticed is that the have light marks / blotches / white marks on their bodies. Two of my blue fish and their 3 babies have this (the two parents didn't seem to have these 6 months ago) also my Rusty has lighter yellow marks on his body. None of them are fuzzy. What could they be? War wounds (I had to get rid of some fish a while back that were really aggressive and did beat up a few of these fish), scales that fell off or some sort of disease? It doesn't look like ick since it isn't fuzzy or furry and the marks are not indentations either. Also my cherry red, demasoni and yellow lab do not have any of these markings. Your thoughts? Both of my bristle nose pleco's seem fine as well.


----------



## Agridion

What's strange is all of the blue guys are back to looking normal. I wonder if when they get really stresed out they change coloring (being transfered into a temporary 20 gallon holding tank), or if it was due to the colder water that they were exposed to when I changed 80 % of their water with cooler water. So strange.


----------



## Agridion

So these are the little fish chilling in my 55 waiting for the 185 to finish cycling. I know 66 fish are a lot for 225 gallons (system capacity) of water but I figure I will only keep around 30 of these once they are full grown.

All Cichlinds are from mellockportÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s at gcca.net. Pictures show the father.
10 Banga Sunshine Ã‚Â¾Ã¢â‚¬Â


----------



## xWingman48

I like the selection of peacocks. As long as you're not worried about inbred fry, you're going to hvae a nice colorful and active tank. ...and if you leave females in the tank, you won't have many to fry to deal with anyway. 

In my all male, I've also really enjoyed having my lithobates, my fryeri, and my taiwan reef hap, so if you're looking for some random additions, those could be fun too. If you're wanting to stick with the purity of all peacocks though, that will be fun too.

You'll definitely do some culling along the way, and you'll probably have to remove a few bullies before all is said and done too. (Eureka's can be punks)

I think you'll enjoy the tank too. Watching peacocks come into their color is really fun. Just be warned, that it takes 2-3yrs for some of them to fully come into color. It will be a pretty tank after 6-8 months, but in a couple of years, it will be stunning.


----------



## Agridion

xWingman48 said:


> I like the selection of peacocks. As long as you're not worried about inbred fry, you're going to hvae a nice colorful and active tank. ...and if you leave females in the tank, you won't have many to fry to deal with anyway.


I'm not to worried about mixed types of fry. I am not planning on selling any fry but who knows maybe I'll get some crazy beautiful new offspring.



> In my all male, I've also really enjoyed having my lithobates, my fryeri, and my taiwan reef hap, so if you're looking for some random additions, those could be fun too. If you're wanting to stick with the purity of all peacocks though, that will be fun too.


 I'll have to look into getting those, but for now my ~70 baby peacocks are quite a handful.


> You'll definitely do some culling along the way, and you'll probably have to remove a few bullies before all is said and done too. (Eureka's can be punks)


For sure. I plan on removing of the males that are not extremely beautiful and probably a few females as well.


> I think you'll enjoy the tank too. Watching peacocks come into their color is really fun. Just be warned, that it takes 2-3yrs for some of them to fully come into color. It will be a pretty tank after 6-8 months, but in a couple of years, it will be stunning.


 I'm already looking forward to seeing how beautiful they will be.


----------



## Agridion

Agridion said:


> What's strange is all of the blue guys are back to looking normal. I wonder if when they get really stresed out they change coloring (being transfered into a temporary 20 gallon holding tank), or if it was due to the colder water that they were exposed to when I changed 80 % of their water with cooler water. So strange.


So tonight when I came back from work the marks were there again. They don't look like indents, hole in the head, but the marks are lighter/white in color. I did notice that few of the blue fish always seem to bump their tops of their head against the rock tops as the duck and hide between the rocks. Maybe they have rubbed the scales off? I'm clueless, but I'll be keeping a close eye on them.


----------



## Agridion

So as I was watching my new little babies in my 55 I stumbled across this!








What a good father! For some reason my two pleco's can't keep their fins off each other! :lol:


----------



## The King Crabb

Wish my Bristlenose Plecos would hurry and breed, I want those babies!


----------



## dillon0990

opcorn:


----------



## dsouthworth

dillon0990 said:


> opcorn:


+1


----------



## sik-lid

Dude! That build was intense! I applaud your patience and tenacity. The part where the tank leaked had me sweating for you. When you were first going to go with pvc caves my first thought was to make the caves using elbows so that each cave was in the shape of a U that way there would be two openings per cave. Alas you scrapped the idea and went with a much more creative alternative. I thank you for sharing this process and just so you know it took me 3 hours of non stop reading to get through it all. It was worth every minute. To all the folks that chimed in during his build I give you kudos as well. I love this forum. I have a 240 gal that is already set up but I am thinking that I am going to start from scratch and make a 3D back ground for it. Enjoy your killer tank brother it turned out great and congratulations on the birth of your son. :dancing:


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## The King Crabb

sik-lid said:


> Dude! That build was intense! I applaud your patience and tenacity. The part where the tank leaked had me sweating for you. When you were first going to go with pvc caves my first thought was to make the caves using elbows so that each cave was in the shape of a U that way there would be two openings per cave. Alas you scrapped the idea and went with a much more creative alternative. I thank you for sharing this process and just so you know it took me 3 hours of non stop reading to get through it all. It was worth every minute. To all the folks that chimed in during his build I give you kudos as well. I love this forum. I have a 240 gal that is already set up but I am thinking that I am going to start from scratch and make a 3D back ground for it. Enjoy your killer tank brother it turned out great and congratulations on the birth of your son. :dancing:


 +1 to the max!

I think I speak for us all when I say....
opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> opcorn: =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: =D> opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: =D> =D> =D> opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: =D> =D> opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: =D> opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: =D> =D> opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: =D> opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: =D> =D> opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: =D> =D> opcorn: opcorn:


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## xWingman48

Now you've gone and scared him away with all of your popcorn and raucous clapping. How is he going to live up to the hype?


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## Agridion

Thanks everyone for your complements and popcorn eating. I posted anything on here for a while for a few reasons. 
One, I am still cycling my tank... Yes still.. There are reasons for this I will get into later. 
Two, I am testing out a new nitrate filter I purchased to see if it works... If it doesn't I will be cutting it open to see how it works and setting up a new thread to unveil how it is put together. 
Three, I have just been plain busy throwing a lot of junk that I have kept for some strange reason though out the years, and organizing the basement and garage with my wife.

For some strange reason my 55 gallon with over 70 fish in it has zero nitrates.... with over a week + of not doing a water change, and feeding the little little hungry Peacocks twice a day. There could be a few reasons why this could be happening.
1) I am wondering if I have set up an anaerobic filter by attaching my canister to my reverse under gravel filter. The canister would perform the aerobic filtration using up most of the oxygen in the water and then the extremely slow flow rate though the gravel with no oxygen would then house anaerobic bacteria.
2) I have on the other side of my tank a sponge powerhead that pumps to the other side of my reverse undergavel filter that also might be home to some anaerobic bacteria that would convert nitrate to N2. 
3) I do have a little bit of green algae growing in my tank but in the recent weeks it has been growing less rapidly.
4) I do have a small vine house plant that is growing roots into my tank and makes it way to the windowsill for light. This would absorb Ammonia before being converted to nitrates, nitrites and nitrates.

So I really don't know exactly why my 55 has zero nitrates when it is over stocked and over fed.

So back to my 185 gallon.
Today I just added a bunch of the same vine plants that I have a small one growing in my 55 to to my 185 to see if they will help lower nitrates... before I add fish to the system. I find that it is easier to tinker with the filtration system while I am only adding ammonia to the tank and there are no fish to kill.

I know a bunch of you are going to tell me what I am about to say I bought is ridiculous, unneeded, and a waste of money but I had the money and I wanted to see if it works... If it doesn't well then the fish community will benefit because I will be cutting it open and displaying how it is put together. A few weeks back I picked up an Aquaripure filter. I have read some good reviews and figured to give it a try... So I am waiting to put fish into the tank, continuing to doss Ammonia until I can see some improvement (reduction of nitrates) in the effluent of this filter

But now that I have this filter running for a few weeks (its still way to early to tell if it works or not.. the bacteria has to multiply for awhile) I have thought up a sweet new sump design that would incorporate, Poret foam, ATS, and an anaerobic filtration section. So I will probably be posting some of my ideas on this soon.

By the way many of my baby peacocks are already starting to show some colors.


----------



## The King Crabb

Good to hear! I'm excited to see it stocked


----------



## Agridion

Here are a few updated pictures.

A picture of my sump setup which I plan on redoing. Yes the booze is food for the Aquaripure which I am not sure if it works yet. I need to give it another month before I can say if it does or not. :-? But if it doesn't I will be cutting it open to find out how it's built. Don't worry if this happens I'll post all of the pictures.  








I just picked up two acrylic 75 gallon aquariums (I'm not sure if this is a hobby or an addiction Arf! :lol: ) 52.5" W x 18" D x 17" high with overflows and everything for a 100 a piece. One I will be using one for the sump and the other I will be cutting up in pieces for the baffles and the other sections of the sump.

I also picked up two Marineland Reef capable LED 36-48" long. :thumb: 
http://www.marineland.com/sites/marineland/products/Detail.aspx?id=3430
Here are a few pictures with the lights on over my tank. I still have to attach them to my canopy which I have yet to put on, but it matches the base. The plants scene in the pictures are another one of my nitrate scrubbers. House plants work pretty well. I designed a channel behind the top of the backdrop for the roots to grow and to be still hidden from view. The vines rope over to my two windows on either side of the tank and will also grow on top of the canopy when I put that on.


----------



## The King Crabb

Amazing! I love how to background turned out and those lights are sensational!


----------



## dillon0990

=D> i must say it has turned out better than i imagined. very nice


----------



## sik-lid

I can't wait to see some peacocks swimming around in there, It looks cool man, I definitely did not picture it turning out the way it did kudos.... =D>


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## Agridion

I wanted to add this link to this forum. This is my new sump build that will be taking the place of my 40 gallon sump. I plan on putting this in place before I add fish. Yep taking my time. Thanks everyone for your complements. 

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=1653961#1653961


----------



## zade

As I have stated I enjoyed reading through your build from a few months back up to it's current stages, things are working out beautifully and once it is fully completed I see it as only being the start of your overall "venture." The background turned out wonderfully and the lights once incorperated into your overall canopy will look beautiful. I have some LEDs myself and they are beautiful and put out barley to no heat what-so-ever. I'm sorry to hear about the leak, as already stated once I read over the problem I too felt like it was mine to worry about. I'm glad you were able to overcome this diversity. Man you seriously have some patiences that I know must be a blessing. With that being said,

Congrats on the boy brother. Children are a wonderful adaption to the family. My baby is finally just about two months old and every picture I have the opportunity to see swells my heart. Back on topic,

I'm excessivly eager to see the build finally come together. At the same time it'll be sad, but we know it's not as much of a hobby as it is an addiction. Keep up the good work brother!


----------



## Agridion

zade said:


> As I have stated I enjoyed reading through your build from a few months back up to it's current stages, things are working out beautifully and once it is fully completed I see it as only being the start of your overall "venture." The background turned out wonderfully and the lights once incorperated into your overall canopy will look beautiful. I have some LEDs myself and they are beautiful and put out barley to no heat what-so-ever. I'm sorry to hear about the leak, as already stated once I read over the problem I too felt like it was mine to worry about. I'm glad you were able to overcome this diversity. Man you seriously have some patiences that I know must be a blessing. With that being said,
> 
> Congrats on the boy brother. Children are a wonderful adaption to the family. My baby is finally just about two months old and every picture I have the opportunity to see swells my heart. Back on topic,
> 
> I'm excessivly eager to see the build finally come together. At the same time it'll be sad, but we know it's not as much of a hobby as it is an addiction. Keep up the good work brother!


Thanks Zade for your complements and Congratulations on your little one too. I can't wait for our little man to enter the earth!


----------



## cmjdjm1

Just read every post here, and I must say I'm very impressed. I really applaud your talents and efforts! Congrats on the baby, *** got a 6 year old son myself that we had about a year after I got into this hobby, and he's grown into the hobby right along with me. We recently went out and bought a small tank for his room too after years of him bugging for one. Aparently 4 other tanks in the house arent enough for him lol. Good luck on the tank, and your son when he comes along. Hopefully you'll enjoy both your new tank and more importantly your expanded family as much as I do!


----------



## DempseyDude

best background DIY i have seen, specially because of the micro-caves you did!


----------



## Agridion

Without further ado.

I decided I wanted to add some pizzazz to the sand and I added some Aragamax Sand to my pool filter sand and I am glad I did. It looks fantastic.








I added my new 75 gallon sump to my tank:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=234933
















This is a shot of my automatic filtered slow drip system, water addition, and sump overflow drain line.








Here is my tank with fish in it. They are still baby Peacocks and I only put 1/2 of them in from my 55. They all seem to like the left side of the tank except for one Demonsi cichlid who loves the big rock on the right side.


----------



## Agridion

I have been cycling my tank for over 2 months while I have been working on my new sump for my tank. When I took a closer look I found these worms. Will they attach or hurt my fish? They are about 1/4" long or so and there are also weird larger crusty looking shapes.


----------



## Agridion

Nevermind I found out these worms are good for a sand bed.


----------



## xWingman48

Agridion said:
 

> They all seem to like the left side of the tank except for one Demonsi cichlid who loves the big rock on the right side.


Could it be that the Demasoni is forcing them to like the left side? I think your misspelling to include "Demon" could be very appropriate for them. 

Hopefully in a tank that long with that many peacocks the aggression can be spread out. I've never been able to keep a demasoni with my peacocks due to aggression, but they're really beautiful fish so I wish you the best.


----------



## Agridion

xWingman48 said:


> Could it be that the Demasoni is forcing them to like the left side? I think your misspelling to include "Demon" could be very appropriate for them.
> 
> Hopefully in a tank that long with that many peacocks the aggression can be spread out. I've never been able to keep a demasoni with my peacocks due to aggression, but they're really beautiful fish so I wish you the best.


He sure could have been a bunch of the peacocks within the first day had bite marks taken out of their fins and I definitely saw him defending his area. After a few days though he really doesn't chase them off much anymore. All of their fins are growing back out and they all seem to be getting along better. Since that post the peacocks have also seemed to settle in and now swim all over the place.

Now I'm thinking of making this tank a planted tank as well. I would just need to redo the sand bed to put a layer of nutrients down before I put the sand back down. Any suggestions?


----------



## cantrell00

Agridion said:


> xWingman48 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could it be that the Demasoni is forcing them to like the left side? I think your misspelling to include "Demon" could be very appropriate for them.
> 
> Hopefully in a tank that long with that many peacocks the aggression can be spread out. I've never been able to keep a demasoni with my peacocks due to aggression, but they're really beautiful fish so I wish you the best.
> 
> 
> 
> He sure could have been a bunch of the peacocks within the first day had bite marks taken out of their fins and I definitely saw him defending his area. After a few days though he really doesn't chase them off much anymore. All of their fins are growing back out and they all seem to be getting along better. Since that post the peacocks have also seemed to settle in and now swim all over the place.
> 
> Now I'm thinking of making this tank a planted tank as well. I would just need to redo the sand bed to put a layer of nutrients down before I put the sand back down. Any suggestions?
Click to expand...

Stick with jungle or corkscrew valisneria, anubias & amazon swords. No need to alter the substrate & they are among the few plants that can be kept with mbuna. Most plants get eaten, uprooted and destroyed with these guys. I have had really good success with swords. After I planted them, I placed rocks at the base of the stem to protects the roots from getting tugged on by the fish so they could establish their roots. Be careful when vacuuming the substrate in the area where they are though. They can be uprooted easily..


----------



## xWingman48

cantrell00 said:


> Stick with jungle or corkscrew valisneria, anubias & amazon swords. No need to alter the substrate & they are among the few plants that can be kept with mbuna. Most plants get eaten, uprooted and destroyed with these guys. I have had really good success with swords. After I planted them, I placed rocks at the base of the stem to protects the roots from getting tugged on by the fish so they could establish their roots. Be careful when vacuuming the substrate in the area where they are though. They can be uprooted easily..


Hmm, should we really be encouraging him in this? Now he's going to have hundreds of dollars worth of CO2 regulators, reactors, automatic fertilizer dosing computers, and the like. This tank is going to consume him!!!!

Actually, with those plants, you can probably just get by with some flourish and flourish excel dosing, and it won't be a ton of work. Even the peacocks can be pretty rough on the plants though, just nipping them out of curiosity. I've tried it and gotten it to work fairly well, but the plants do take a beating from time to time.

I definitely wouldn't mess with adding different substrate off the bat. See if you can get the hardy plants mentioned above to grow without getting picked apart before trying anything that requires more nutrients.

Best of luck, and keep the pictures coming! This has definitely been an entertaining thread.


----------



## cantrell00

xWingman48 said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stick with jungle or corkscrew valisneria, anubias & amazon swords. No need to alter the substrate & they are among the few plants that can be kept with mbuna. Most plants get eaten, uprooted and destroyed with these guys. I have had really good success with swords. After I planted them, I placed rocks at the base of the stem to protects the roots from getting tugged on by the fish so they could establish their roots. Be careful when vacuuming the substrate in the area where they are though. They can be uprooted easily..
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, should we really be encouraging him in this? Now he's going to have hundreds of dollars worth of CO2 regulators, reactors, automatic fertilizer dosing computers, and the like. This tank is going to consume him!!!!
> 
> Actually, with those plants, you can probably just get by with some flourish and flourish excel dosing, and it won't be a ton of work. Even the peacocks can be pretty rough on the plants though, just nipping them out of curiosity. I've tried it and gotten it to work fairly well, but the plants do take a beating from time to time.
> 
> I definitely wouldn't mess with adding different substrate off the bat. See if you can get the hardy plants mentioned above to grow without getting picked apart before trying anything that requires more nutrients.
> 
> Best of luck, and keep the pictures coming! This has definitely been an entertaining thread.
Click to expand...

 :lol:

I fertilize with flourish and the equivalent. That is all that I do. As for changing the substrate, man - what a pain!

I don't see more delicate plant types surviving with malawians long term though. It would look like a biggest loser convention at the Ruby Tuesday salad bar... Shredded.


----------



## Agridion

Thanks cantrell00 and xWingman48.

OK, so I'll stick with the plants that you recommended (jungle or corkscrew Valisneria, Anubis & Amazon swords.) with rocks on top to hold them down. Any recommendations on where to buy them at? I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t mind taking my substrate out, laying down a base layer for the plants then putting the sand back on top if in the end it would be better and easier for the plants. If I chose this method what substrate should I put down first (Flourite, Onyx, Eco-complete, etc)? If I just stick with the PFS aragonite mix and dose the water column how do I go about doing that? I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t plan on doing weekly water changes but more on the routine of monthly as long as nitrates stay in check... Since I am constantly adding water to the tank and draining water to the sewer, I have an ATF filter, and vine house plants to keep the nitrates down. I am sure that performing fewer water changes would affect the amount of nutrients that I should give to the plants.


----------



## cantrell00

Agridion said:


> Thanks cantrell00 and xWingman48.
> 
> OK, so I'll stick with the plants that you recommended (jungle or corkscrew Valisneria, Anubis & Amazon swords.) with rocks on top to hold them down. Any recommendations on where to buy them at? I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t mind taking my substrate out, laying down a base layer for the plants then putting the sand back on top if in the end it would be better and easier for the plants. If I chose this method what substrate should I put down first (Flourite, Onyx, Eco-complete, etc)? If I just stick with the PFS aragonite mix and dose the water column how do I go about doing that? I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t plan on doing weekly water changes but more on the routine of monthly as long as nitrates stay in check... Since I am constantly adding water to the tank and draining water to the sewer, I have an ATF filter, and vine house plants to keep the nitrates down. I am sure that performing fewer water changes would affect the amount of nutrients that I should give to the plants.


Dr foster & smith aquatics, tons of places really... The plants that you are looking for are very common. I don't know where you are but the swords and anubias can be found @ Petco and even Wal-Mart of all places.

Mine have done extremely well in PFS.. I wouldn't recommend anything other than that all things considered and given the results...


----------



## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> Agridion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks cantrell00 and xWingman48.
> 
> OK, so I'll stick with the plants that you recommended (jungle or corkscrew Valisneria, Anubis & Amazon swords.) with rocks on top to hold them down. Any recommendations on where to buy them at? I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t mind taking my substrate out, laying down a base layer for the plants then putting the sand back on top if in the end it would be better and easier for the plants. If I chose this method what substrate should I put down first (Flourite, Onyx, Eco-complete, etc)? If I just stick with the PFS aragonite mix and dose the water column how do I go about doing that? I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t plan on doing weekly water changes but more on the routine of monthly as long as nitrates stay in check... Since I am constantly adding water to the tank and draining water to the sewer, I have an ATF filter, and vine house plants to keep the nitrates down. I am sure that performing fewer water changes would affect the amount of nutrients that I should give to the plants.
> 
> 
> 
> Dr foster & smith aquatics, tons of places really... The plants that you are looking for are very common. I don't know where you are but the swords and anubias can be found @ Petco and even Wal-Mart of all places.
> 
> Mine have done extremely well in PFS.. I wouldn't recommend anything other than that all things considered and given the results...
Click to expand...

What kind of lighting do you use and what would you recommend for me? Currently I have 2 36" marineland reef capable LED strips. I'm just not sure as to what else I would need to add to provide enough lighting. I have new 3/16" clear glass tops on the tank as well to reduce evaporation.


----------



## cantrell00

Agridion said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agridion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks cantrell00 and xWingman48.
> 
> OK, so I'll stick with the plants that you recommended (jungle or corkscrew Valisneria, Anubis & Amazon swords.) with rocks on top to hold them down. Any recommendations on where to buy them at? I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t mind taking my substrate out, laying down a base layer for the plants then putting the sand back on top if in the end it would be better and easier for the plants. If I chose this method what substrate should I put down first (Flourite, Onyx, Eco-complete, etc)? If I just stick with the PFS aragonite mix and dose the water column how do I go about doing that? I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t plan on doing weekly water changes but more on the routine of monthly as long as nitrates stay in check... Since I am constantly adding water to the tank and draining water to the sewer, I have an ATF filter, and vine house plants to keep the nitrates down. I am sure that performing fewer water changes would affect the amount of nutrients that I should give to the plants.
> 
> 
> 
> Dr foster & smith aquatics, tons of places really... The plants that you are looking for are very common. I don't know where you are but the swords and anubias can be found @ Petco and even Wal-Mart of all places.
> 
> Mine have done extremely well in PFS.. I wouldn't recommend anything other than that all things considered and given the results...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What kind of lighting do you use and what would you recommend for me? Currently I have 2 36" marineland reef capable LED strips. I'm just not sure as to what else I would need to add to provide enough lighting. I have new 3/16" clear glass tops on the tank as well to reduce evaporation.
Click to expand...

Those should work... I am running 200 watts, 10,000K - 6 hrs per day.

These plants reall aren't that picky.. Do you know the color temp on the Marineland LED's? Are these the true "reef" ML LED's or the Dbl Bright?

The dbl brights that I had were not bright enough for me so I returned them...


----------



## JimA

cantrell00 said:


> Agridion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agridion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks cantrell00 and xWingman48.
> 
> OK, so I'll stick with the plants that you recommended (jungle or corkscrew Valisneria, Anubis & Amazon swords.) with rocks on top to hold them down. Any recommendations on where to buy them at? I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t mind taking my substrate out, laying down a base layer for the plants then putting the sand back on top if in the end it would be better and easier for the plants. If I chose this method what substrate should I put down first (Flourite, Onyx, Eco-complete, etc)? If I just stick with the PFS aragonite mix and dose the water column how do I go about doing that? I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t plan on doing weekly water changes but more on the routine of monthly as long as nitrates stay in check... Since I am constantly adding water to the tank and draining water to the sewer, I have an ATF filter, and vine house plants to keep the nitrates down. I am sure that performing fewer water changes would affect the amount of nutrients that I should give to the plants.
> 
> 
> 
> Dr foster & smith aquatics, tons of places really... The plants that you are looking for are very common. I don't know where you are but the swords and anubias can be found @ Petco and even Wal-Mart of all places.
> 
> Mine have done extremely well in PFS.. I wouldn't recommend anything other than that all things considered and given the results...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What kind of lighting do you use and what would you recommend for me? Currently I have 2 36" marineland reef capable LED strips. I'm just not sure as to what else I would need to add to provide enough lighting. I have new 3/16" clear glass tops on the tank as well to reduce evaporation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those should work... I am running 200 watts, 10,000K - 6 hrs per day.
> 
> These plants reall aren't that picky.. Do you know the color temp on the Marineland LED's? Are these the true "reef" ML LED's or the Dbl Bright?
> 
> The dbl brights that I had were not bright enough for me so I returned them...
Click to expand...

 Exactly why I PMd Agridion. Everything I have read says the double brights are not bright enough.. I am changing to trophs next week and was thinking of going with the dbl bright LEDs doubt I will now. Curious how the "reef" onws compare. Hope someone can answer.

CantrellOO how deep is your tank? Mine is at 24 but the trophs might like a bit darker tank but I also want to see them. Currently using a Hagen Glo 1 6500K and 1 acitnic. bright in the mid darker on the ends.


----------



## Agridion

JimA said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Those should work... I am running 200 watts, 10,000K - 6 hrs per day.
> 
> These plants reall aren't that picky.. Do you know the color temp on the Marineland LED's? Are these the true "reef" ML LED's or the Dbl Bright?
> 
> The dbl brights that I had were not bright enough for me so I returned them...
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly why I PMd Agridion. Everything I have read says the double brights are not bright enough.. I am changing to trophs next week and was thinking of going with the dbl bright LEDs doubt I will now. Curious how the "reef" onws compare. Hope someone can answer.
> 
> CantrellOO how deep is your tank? Mine is at 24 but the trophs might like a bit darker tank but I also want to see them. Currently using a Hagen Glo 1 6500K and 1 acitnic. bright in the mid darker on the ends.
Click to expand...

Mine are the true "Reef" LED's they are super bright. They are more of a spot light then a flood light. I have algae already growing on one part of the rock where the LED hits but not on the other part of the rock so I would have to say that if the plants are right under the LED it will get a lot of light. Otherwise not so much.

What about 6500K? Today I went to Menards and picked up some supplies for 2 DIY light strips, each having 4 100W 6500K, 1600 lumens, CPF. So that will be 8 CPF lamps for the tank.

Think that will be enough alone?


----------



## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> I am running 200 watts, 10,000K - 6 hrs per day.


200 actual watts? What kind of lamps are you using? I've read in places that 6500K is the preferred temp for freshwater plants. I am glad to hear that the 10,000K works too.


----------



## cantrell00

Agridion said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am running 200 watts, 10,000K - 6 hrs per day.
> 
> 
> 
> 200 actual watts? What kind of lamps are you using? I've read in places that 6500K is the preferred temp for freshwater plants. I am glad to hear that the 10,000K works too.
Click to expand...

Only because those were the lamps that it came with.. I have a 72" Coralife Aqualight Plus. It has 2 X 98W, 10000K - 2 X 98W Actinic - 2 X98W 50/50.

I would prefer 6500K but didn't see the need to relace these until they expired.


----------



## cantrell00

Agridion said:


> JimA said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Those should work... I am running 200 watts, 10,000K - 6 hrs per day.
> 
> These plants reall aren't that picky.. Do you know the color temp on the Marineland LED's? Are these the true "reef" ML LED's or the Dbl Bright?
> 
> The dbl brights that I had were not bright enough for me so I returned them...
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly why I PMd Agridion. Everything I have read says the double brights are not bright enough.. I am changing to trophs next week and was thinking of going with the dbl bright LEDs doubt I will now. Curious how the "reef" onws compare. Hope someone can answer.
> 
> CantrellOO how deep is your tank? Mine is at 24 but the trophs might like a bit darker tank but I also want to see them. Currently using a Hagen Glo 1 6500K and 1 acitnic. bright in the mid darker on the ends.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Mine are the true "Reef" LED's they are super bright. They are more of a spot light then a flood light. I have algae already growing on one part of the rock where the LED hits but not on the other part of the rock so I would have to say that if the plants are right under the LED it will get a lot of light. Otherwise not so much.
> 
> What about 6500K? Today I went to Menards and picked up some supplies for 2 DIY light strips, each having 4 100W 6500K, 1600 lumens, CPF. So that will be 8 CPF lamps for the tank.
> 
> Think that will be enough alone?
Click to expand...

JEEBUS! Unless I am reading this wrong, that is 800 watts, right? Oh yeah - that is plenty..


----------



## cantrell00

JimA said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agridion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agridion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks cantrell00 and xWingman48.
> 
> OK, so I'll stick with the plants that you recommended (jungle or corkscrew Valisneria, Anubis & Amazon swords.) with rocks on top to hold them down. Any recommendations on where to buy them at? I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t mind taking my substrate out, laying down a base layer for the plants then putting the sand back on top if in the end it would be better and easier for the plants. If I chose this method what substrate should I put down first (Flourite, Onyx, Eco-complete, etc)? If I just stick with the PFS aragonite mix and dose the water column how do I go about doing that? I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t plan on doing weekly water changes but more on the routine of monthly as long as nitrates stay in check... Since I am constantly adding water to the tank and draining water to the sewer, I have an ATF filter, and vine house plants to keep the nitrates down. I am sure that performing fewer water changes would affect the amount of nutrients that I should give to the plants.
> 
> 
> 
> Dr foster & smith aquatics, tons of places really... The plants that you are looking for are very common. I don't know where you are but the swords and anubias can be found @ Petco and even Wal-Mart of all places.
> 
> Mine have done extremely well in PFS.. I wouldn't recommend anything other than that all things considered and given the results...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What kind of lighting do you use and what would you recommend for me? Currently I have 2 36" marineland reef capable LED strips. I'm just not sure as to what else I would need to add to provide enough lighting. I have new 3/16" clear glass tops on the tank as well to reduce evaporation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those should work... I am running 200 watts, 10,000K - 6 hrs per day.
> 
> These plants reall aren't that picky.. Do you know the color temp on the Marineland LED's? Are these the true "reef" ML LED's or the Dbl Bright?
> 
> The dbl brights that I had were not bright enough for me so I returned them...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exactly why I PMd Agridion. Everything I have read says the double brights are not bright enough.. I am changing to trophs next week and was thinking of going with the dbl bright LEDs doubt I will now. Curious how the "reef" onws compare. Hope someone can answer.
> 
> CantrellOO how deep is your tank? Mine is at 24 but the trophs might like a bit darker tank but I also want to see them. Currently using a Hagen Glo 1 6500K and 1 acitnic. bright in the mid darker on the ends.
Click to expand...

How long are the bulbs? Yes, my tank is 24" deep. 180 gallon. Trophs = tropheus?


----------



## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> Agridion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Think that will be enough alone?
> 
> 
> 
> JEEBUS! Unless I am reading this wrong, that is 800 watts, right? Oh yeah - that is plenty..
Click to expand...

Sorry I mean the 23 watt (100 watt equivalent ) lamps. Is that still enough? Roughly 200 watts


----------



## cantrell00

Agridion said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agridion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Think that will be enough alone?
> 
> 
> 
> JEEBUS! Unless I am reading this wrong, that is 800 watts, right? Oh yeah - that is plenty..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry I mean the 23 watt (100 watt equivalent ) lamps. Is that still enough? Roughly 200 watts
Click to expand...

That will work.. no problem..


----------



## xWingman48

I've had anubias do well with a plain fluorescent tube. I think you'll be fine with the reef ready.

They're probably a bit on the high temperature side for plants. Most "reef" lighting is heavy on the blue light (1800 K), where you want a bit more of the yellow for plants (7000K).

With the plants discussed here, however, I would guess that your lights will be more than fine.


----------



## Agridion

Thanks guys for the advice. I bought a bunch of plants and once I finish my new light setup I will take a few more pictures of the tank. It's starting to come together! :thumb:

Here is the custom light setup that I am working on. Thoughts / comments before I finish it? 








The wires will not be showing, I just rested everything together for this picture.


----------



## cantrell00

Agridion said:


> Thanks guys for the advice. I bought a bunch of plants and once I finish my new light setup I will take a few more pictures of the tank. It's starting to come together! :thumb:
> 
> Here is the custom light setup that I am working on. Thoughts / comments before I finish it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The wires will not be showing, I just rested everything together for this picture.


Looks tight! Where did you get the parts to build it?


----------



## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> Looks tight! Where did you get the parts to build it?


Menards
The top stained oak is the top of my canopy. The reflector is an oblong galvanized tin air duct that I cut with a metal saw blade on my table saw. I then sprayed the reflector with a clear enamel gloss finish to help further protect the reflector from rust. The oak strip I also cut with the table saw and routed out with a router. The light fixtures are pieced together from the outdoor lighting that you can find in the electrical department. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m going to have to wire the whole thing together next.


----------



## cantrell00

> Menards
> The top stained oak is the top of my canopy. The reflector is an oblong galvanized tin air duct that I cut with a metal saw blade on my table saw. I then sprayed the reflector with a clear enamel gloss finish to help further protect the reflector from rust. The oak strip I also cut with the table saw and routed out with a router. The light fixtures are pieced together from the outdoor lighting that you can find in the electrical department. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m going to have to wire the whole thing together next.


Nice...


----------



## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> Menards
> The top stained oak is the top of my canopy. The reflector is an oblong galvanized tin air duct that I cut with a metal saw blade on my table saw. I then sprayed the reflector with a clear enamel gloss finish to help further protect the reflector from rust. The oak strip I also cut with the table saw and routed out with a router. The light fixtures are pieced together from the outdoor lighting that you can find in the electrical department. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m going to have to wire the whole thing together next.
> 
> 
> 
> Nice...
Click to expand...

Think it will be supply enough light?


----------



## cantrell00

Agridion said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Menards
> The top stained oak is the top of my canopy. The reflector is an oblong galvanized tin air duct that I cut with a metal saw blade on my table saw. I then sprayed the reflector with a clear enamel gloss finish to help further protect the reflector from rust. The oak strip I also cut with the table saw and routed out with a router. The light fixtures are pieced together from the outdoor lighting that you can find in the electrical department. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m going to have to wire the whole thing together next.
> 
> 
> 
> Nice...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Think it will be supply enough light?
Click to expand...

How wide is it? I think it will provide plnty of concentrated light. Your tank is 7' wide, right?


----------



## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> t?


How wide is it? I think it will provide plnty of concentrated light. Your tank is 7' wide, right[/quote]

Yep it's 7 feet long. Each of the two top pieces spans 41 inches.


----------



## JimA

cantrell00 said:


> JimA said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agridion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agridion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks cantrell00 and xWingman48.
> 
> OK, so I'll stick with the plants that you recommended (jungle or corkscrew Valisneria, Anubis & Amazon swords.) with rocks on top to hold them down. Any recommendations on where to buy them at? I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t mind taking my substrate out, laying down a base layer for the plants then putting the sand back on top if in the end it would be better and easier for the plants. If I chose this method what substrate should I put down first (Flourite, Onyx, Eco-complete, etc)? If I just stick with the PFS aragonite mix and dose the water column how do I go about doing that? I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t plan on doing weekly water changes but more on the routine of monthly as long as nitrates stay in check... Since I am constantly adding water to the tank and draining water to the sewer, I have an ATF filter, and vine house plants to keep the nitrates down. I am sure that performing fewer water changes would affect the amount of nutrients that I should give to the plants.
> 
> 
> 
> Dr foster & smith aquatics, tons of places really... The plants that you are looking for are very common. I don't know where you are but the swords and anubias can be found @ Petco and even Wal-Mart of all places.
> 
> Mine have done extremely well in PFS.. I wouldn't recommend anything other than that all things considered and given the results...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What kind of lighting do you use and what would you recommend for me? Currently I have 2 36" marineland reef capable LED strips. I'm just not sure as to what else I would need to add to provide enough lighting. I have new 3/16" clear glass tops on the tank as well to reduce evaporation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those should work... I am running 200 watts, 10,000K - 6 hrs per day.
> 
> These plants reall aren't that picky.. Do you know the color temp on the Marineland LED's? Are these the true "reef" ML LED's or the Dbl Bright?
> 
> The dbl brights that I had were not bright enough for me so I returned them...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exactly why I PMd Agridion. Everything I have read says the double brights are not bright enough.. I am changing to trophs next week and was thinking of going with the dbl bright LEDs doubt I will now. Curious how the "reef" onws compare. Hope someone can answer.
> 
> CantrellOO how deep is your tank? Mine is at 24 but the trophs might like a bit darker tank but I also want to see them. Currently using a Hagen Glo 1 6500K and 1 acitnic. bright in the mid darker on the ends.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How long are the bulbs? Yes, my tank is 24" deep. 180 gallon. Trophs = tropheus?
Click to expand...

 Yes Red Rainbow Tropheus going in the Mbuna are getting a new home.

Here's a quick cruddy pic I was heading out the door for work. The Hagen glo light is 48" I think I will keep it for now. Would love to do the LED light for the shimmer effect, price is ridiculous on them IMO. Will see. The ends of the tank are actually a bit darker in person.


----------



## cantrell00

JimA said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JimA said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agridion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agridion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks cantrell00 and xWingman48.
> 
> OK, so I'll stick with the plants that you recommended (jungle or corkscrew Valisneria, Anubis & Amazon swords.) with rocks on top to hold them down. Any recommendations on where to buy them at? I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t mind taking my substrate out, laying down a base layer for the plants then putting the sand back on top if in the end it would be better and easier for the plants. If I chose this method what substrate should I put down first (Flourite, Onyx, Eco-complete, etc)? If I just stick with the PFS aragonite mix and dose the water column how do I go about doing that? I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t plan on doing weekly water changes but more on the routine of monthly as long as nitrates stay in check... Since I am constantly adding water to the tank and draining water to the sewer, I have an ATF filter, and vine house plants to keep the nitrates down. I am sure that performing fewer water changes would affect the amount of nutrients that I should give to the plants.
> 
> 
> 
> Dr foster & smith aquatics, tons of places really... The plants that you are looking for are very common. I don't know where you are but the swords and anubias can be found @ Petco and even Wal-Mart of all places.
> 
> Mine have done extremely well in PFS.. I wouldn't recommend anything other than that all things considered and given the results...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What kind of lighting do you use and what would you recommend for me? Currently I have 2 36" marineland reef capable LED strips. I'm just not sure as to what else I would need to add to provide enough lighting. I have new 3/16" clear glass tops on the tank as well to reduce evaporation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those should work... I am running 200 watts, 10,000K - 6 hrs per day.
> 
> These plants reall aren't that picky.. Do you know the color temp on the Marineland LED's? Are these the true "reef" ML LED's or the Dbl Bright?
> 
> The dbl brights that I had were not bright enough for me so I returned them...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exactly why I PMd Agridion. Everything I have read says the double brights are not bright enough.. I am changing to trophs next week and was thinking of going with the dbl bright LEDs doubt I will now. Curious how the "reef" onws compare. Hope someone can answer.
> 
> CantrellOO how deep is your tank? Mine is at 24 but the trophs might like a bit darker tank but I also want to see them. Currently using a Hagen Glo 1 6500K and 1 acitnic. bright in the mid darker on the ends.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How long are the bulbs? Yes, my tank is 24" deep. 180 gallon. Trophs = tropheus?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes Red Rainbow Tropheus going in the Mbuna are getting a new home.
> 
> Here's a quick cruddy pic I was heading out the door for work. The Hagen glo light is 48" I think I will keep it for now. Would love to do the LED light for the shimmer effect, price is ridiculous on them IMO. Will see. The ends of the tank are actually a bit darker in person.
Click to expand...

Looks good...


----------



## cantrell00

Agridion said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> t?
> 
> 
> 
> How wide is it? I think it will provide plnty of concentrated light. Your tank is 7' wide, right
Click to expand...

Yep it's 7 feet long. Each of the two top pieces spans 41 inches.[/quote]

Should be more than adequate. What was the lumen output on the bulbs?


----------



## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> Should be more than adequate. What was the lumen output on the bulbs (lamp)?


Each lamp is 1600 Lumens 6500K, so that's 6,400 Lumens per 1/2 of the tank or 12,800 Lumens for the whole tank.


----------



## cantrell00

Agridion said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should be more than adequate. What was the lumen output on the bulbs (lamp)?
> 
> 
> 
> Each lamp is 1600 Lumens 6500K, so that's 6,400 Lumens per 1/2 of the tank or 12,800 Lumens for the whole tank.
Click to expand...

You are in good shape... I would set 'em up a timer and run them for 6 hrs per day.. Adjust as necessary...


----------



## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> You are in good shape... I would set 'em up a timer and run them for 6 hrs per day.. Adjust as necessary...


Six is enough? Not 10 or 12? The plants you recommended to me are they Low or Medium light plants?


----------



## cantrell00

Agridion said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are in good shape... I would set 'em up a timer and run them for 6 hrs per day.. Adjust as necessary...
> 
> 
> 
> Six is enough? Not 10 or 12? The plants you recommended to me are they Low or Medium light plants?
Click to expand...

Yes - six is good. medium to low light requirements. Has more to do with duration than intensity...


----------



## Agridion

JimA your tank looks good, like you thought just a tad on the dark side. You might want to do something besides LED's since they will only light the area directly under the strip.

I hooked up my DIY lights to my canopy. The only thing lighting my tank in this picture is the Marineland Reef 36" LED strips. 









This is with the tank with all the lights on. All that's left is to put timers on everything.


----------



## z400

That looks real neat!


----------



## JimA

Agridion said:


> JimA your tank looks good.
> 
> I hooked up my DIY lights to my canopy. The only thing lighting my tank in this picture is the Marineland Reef 36" LED strips.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is with the tank with all the lights on. All that's left is to put timers on everything.


 Your's looks great as well. I can't help but see a face/head in that single rock to the right, just not sure what I see though? Looking back at your original pics you posted so long ago, it has really come together. I remember thinking WTF is this guy doing. Very nice job!!

I am torn on going with LEDs or not when I look at the pics of my tank the Hagen looks good. When I look at it at home I want to change it. :lol: If I do change them I think I will spend the money on the reef lights instead of the dbl brights. May as well go big.

I drop off my Mbuna on Saturday and pick up my Tropheus on Sunday I really hope all goes well I know how they can be. Will also be changing up the landscape as well.


----------



## cantrell00

Agridion said:


> JimA your tank looks good, like you thought just a tad on the dark side. You might want to do something besides LED's since they will only light the area directly under the strip.
> 
> I hooked up my DIY lights to my canopy. The only thing lighting my tank in this picture is the Marineland Reef 36" LED strips.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is with the tank with all the lights on. All that's left is to put timers on everything.


Plenty of light IMO..


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## Agridion

JimA said:


> Your's looks great as well. I can't help but see a face/head in that single rock to the right, just not sure what I see though? Looking back at your original pics you posted so long ago, it has really come together. I remember thinking WTF is this guy doing. Very nice job!!


Thanks. I'm sure you weren't the only one who was like WTF is that! Overall I like how it turned out. As the backdrop ages it is picking up some more colors or the dyes are coming through and is looking quite good. You are right. The rock on the right does look like a face. It really disturbed me in the beginning, since I didn't want any faces in my tank, but then my brothers both think it looks like Yoshi since it has a shorter body section n tail behind the head shaped stone. So I am good with it's creepiness. :lol: I figure I am going to wait a few months before I put my tank up on the Rate the tank above you link. I am not sure what they will give it.


JimA said:


> I am torn on going with LEDs or not when I look at the pics of my tank the Hagen looks good. When I look at it at home I want to change it. :lol: If I do change them I think I will spend the money on the reef lights instead of the dbl brights. May as well go big.


Go big or go home! And if you buy it from a store and you don't like it after a few days you could always take them back right? 


JimA said:


> I drop off my Mbuna on Saturday and pick up my Tropheus on Sunday I really hope all goes well I know how they can be. Will also be changing up the landscape as well.


Well you should start a thread on your tank change out. Make sure to PM me with a link. I would love to check out your new design.


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## The King Crabb

Agridon, this is a great tank! Excellent job on everything you've done! =D>

I hope to hear more about CFLs being used to grow lights, I'm debating on using them at some point. I also want to know how that ATF works out, very intriguing idea!


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## Agridion

Ok so now how do I provent Algae growth? I know plants are supposed to help but my plants really haven't had time to take a hold after their transfer and in the mean time the Algae is starting to grow. 

King Crabb, I'll keep you posted as to how both of those work out.


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## xWingman48

Agridion said:


> Ok so now how do I provent Algae growth? I know plants are supposed to help but my plants really haven't had time to take a hold after their transfer and in the mean time the Algae is starting to grow.


LOTS of literature on the web about that one. I would get a few Bristlenose plecos, they do a great job of controlling algae.


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## Agridion

xWingman48 said:


> Agridion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok so now how do I provent Algae growth? I know plants are supposed to help but my plants really haven't had time to take a hold after their transfer and in the mean time the Algae is starting to grow.
> 
> 
> 
> LOTS of literature on the web about that one. I would get a few Bristlenose plecos, they do a great job of controlling algae.
Click to expand...

Mine just seem to like to eat my fish food more then they like to eat the algae. I have an Algae scrubber so I am hoping that once that starts to take hold that it will help reduce the algae in the tank... But well see.


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## cantrell00

Agridion said:


> xWingman48 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agridion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok so now how do I provent Algae growth? I know plants are supposed to help but my plants really haven't had time to take a hold after their transfer and in the mean time the Algae is starting to grow.
> 
> 
> 
> LOTS of literature on the web about that one. I would get a few Bristlenose plecos, they do a great job of controlling algae.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Mine just seem to like to eat my fish food more then they like to eat the algae. I have an Algae scrubber so I am hoping that once that starts to take hold that it will help reduce the algae in the tank... But well see.
Click to expand...

Decrease the lighting duration to start... 6 hours seems to be a good time frame for me...

What light temp are the LED's? 10K?


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## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> Decrease the lighting duration to start... 6 hours seems to be a good time frame for me...
> What light temp are the LED's? 10K?


The LED's are 10,000K. The majority of the Algae is growing where the sun hits the tank... GO FIGURE right? :lol: I just wanted to have more light hit the plants on that side but I could close out the blinds... Just seems silly to close them when I am trying to supplement the tank with sunlight and part of the tank can get sunlight.

I will try the 6 hours of light for the tank and leave the Algae scrubber lights on for 12 hours.


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## cantrell00

Agridion said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Decrease the lighting duration to start... 6 hours seems to be a good time frame for me...
> What light temp are the LED's? 10K?
> 
> 
> 
> The LED's are 10,000K. The majority of the Algae is growing where the sun hits the tank... GO FIGURE right? :lol: I just wanted to have more light hit the plants on that side but I could close out the blinds... Just seems silly to close them when I am trying to supplement the tank with sunlight and part of the tank can get sunlight.
> 
> I will try the 6 hours of light for the tank and leave the Algae scrubber lights on for 12 hours.
Click to expand...

I would put a blind over the window.. I had a huge algae bloom recently when my wife opened the blind in the room where the tank is located. I never realized it and proceeded to chase the many scenario's that could be causing it.. My light's, high nitrates, etc, etc, etc. All to find out that it was something as simple a blind being open and me not realizing it. Sigh.

As for the algae scrubber - I assume you are trying to control nitrates?

Are you measuring them with and without the algae scrubber? I am curious to hear how well it is (or isn't) working...

Not to be a Debbie Downer but I have yet to find a substitute for water changes. Although I would like to.


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## Agridion

cantrell00 said:


> I would put a blind over the window.. I had a huge algae bloom recently when my wife opened the blind in the room where the tank is located. I never realized it and proceeded to chase the many scenario's that could be causing it.. My light's, high nitrates, etc, etc, etc. All to find out that it was something as simple a blind being open and me not realizing it. Sigh.


Ok, I'll turn the blinds the other way when I get home. 


cantrell00 said:


> As for the algae scrubber - I assume you are trying to control nitrates?


Yes and Algae. It is supposed to help control both. Keeps the algae out of the tank and also helps reduce nitrates.


cantrell00 said:


> Are you measuring them with and without the algae scrubber? I am curious to hear how well it is (or isn't) working...


Well I have been taking readings currently and once my tank gets up and running, I figure about 3 months, then I should be able to take other readings to determine if all of my nitrate reducing mechanisms are working. I am employing, 5 techniques to help reduce nitrates, Algae scrubber, Anaerobic Filter section, DSB, Planted tank, and a house plant with its roots growing into the tank, so I may not be able to tell which one is helping the most.


cantrell00 said:


> Not to be a Debbie Downer but I have yet to find a substitute for water changes. Although I would like to.


I'm not planning on stopping water changes but reducing them to maybe once a month or longer. 
In my 55 gallon tank when I had over the 70 peacocks, feeding heavily twice a day, I had zero nitrates for over a month. It wasn't until I moved 1/2 of them over to my 185 gallon tank, cleaned the filters, and vacuumed the gravel did my readings go up. I'm sure it was because I destroyed my anaerobic sections in the filter and gravel bed. The tank has two canisters, one that pumps the water into a reverse undergravel custom filter, and the other to the tank itself. both canisters at the time had sponge filters on the inlets to the canisters as well. I also have an internal water pump that pumps water through the other size of my undergravel filter, and a few house plants that grow out of the tank. Plus some algae. So I am guessing the anaerobic section in the gravel and my house plants that are growing out of the tank were keeping the tank at zero. So it is possible to remove all nitrates on a heavily stocked well fed tank.


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## Agridion

So today I was cleaning my tank and I came across these weird things growing/coming out of a crack on the bottom of a Texas Holly Rock. 








Is it Hydra? It doesn't exactly look the same as hydra but does have these weird hair like short spikes at the end of each bulb structure. They almost look like little Dandelion's hanging upside down but only out of a crack in the rock. And if they are Hydra why only on a crack on the rock? If they are how can I eradicate them from the tank without killing my MTS?

Well whatever they are I took the rock out and through it in a bucket with some bleach.


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## Agridion

The pictures never turn out as good as it looks in real life but I finally finished the tank and I wanted to share some pictures with you all. Well almost, I am thinking of setting up a CO2 system.


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## malady

looks alot better

I wish i could have a tank of this size

great job


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## pikayooperdave

just read (almost) all of this thread. wow! the end product looks great and you deserve it. congrats!


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## fote03

Very nice work!


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## Agridion

malady said:


> looks alot better
> I wish i could have a tank of this size
> great job





pikayooperdave said:


> just read (almost) all of this thread. wow! the end product looks great and you deserve it. congrats!





fote03 said:


> Very nice work!


Thanks guys. I am loving the tank and surprisingly some of the Aulonocara use my cave system. It is really interesting because one of the male Eureka will swim out of his cave dance in front of a female swim back in and then a few seconds later she will enter his cave. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m not sure what they do back there, ha ha right! And then 20 - 45 seconds later they swim back out.

I ordered the CO2 System from Aquariumplants.com and picked up their system, CarbonDoser electronic CO2 regulator, External Reactor 5000, and the Ph Controller. I hear good reviews on their regulator so IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m hoping it works well.

Over all I am pretty happy with my system. There are only a few things that I wish I could changeÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ One being I wish I added more mechanical filtration to my sump. I currently have to clean out the mechanical media every day to every other day. It only takes 3 minutes to do so itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s not a huge deal. I think adding some socks to the sump design might be the answer but that will take a day to build, whenever I find the time now that I have a little 6 week old guy running around (figuratively). The other would be a few lights in my canopy that donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t move with the canopy doors. It makes it extremely hard to capture a fish when you canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t see them. Surprisingly it isnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t impossible to catch fish with having permanent caves, itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s just harder and involves a different netting strategy. I have to use 2 or 3 nets to catch a fish. I use a smaller net to chase the fish into a bigger stationary net. For some reason the fish do not see a net that isnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t moving as a threat and swim right into it.


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## DeanoBeano

WOW

After spending 2 hours of my time at work reading the whole thread, I am amazed at the final product and you have now inspired me to create my own back drop. This is something I have wanted to do for years but never quite managed it, but now I think it's time to bite the bullet and create one.

Thanks for the inspiration :thumb:


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## zquattrucci

read the whole thing all i can say is epic


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## sandandrocks

Agridion said:


> JimA your tank looks good, like you thought just a tad on the dark side. You might want to do something besides LED's since they will only light the area directly under the strip.
> 
> I hooked up my DIY lights to my canopy. The only thing lighting my tank in this picture is the Marineland Reef 36" LED strips.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is with the tank with all the lights on. All that's left is to put timers on everything.


Just read this whole thread. I was a skeptic about this build until i saw this...

Great job and keep up the great work.


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## Rick_Lindsey

Wow, I come back a few months later and you've gone from scary pvc concoction (sorry) to interesting and pretty cool looking cichlid condos to WOW! Amazing looking tank. I'm not normally a big fan of planted rift lake tanks but wow, that looks good. The background looks reaaly excellent with that algae growing on it and the plants are filling in nicely. Just wow. Me likey.

-Rick (the armchair aquarist)


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## Huskfan13

Dude you are way more patient than I am. If I can ask what is total cost of your tank how it sits now? How much $ went into the scrapped ideas? Nice tank and I commend you for definitely thinking "outside the box" on your background.


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## Agridion

Well my delayed response is due to working ~78 hours a week, nights, for the past 8 weeks. I am finally back on a normal schedule and can afford to do other things when I am not at work other then sleep. 



sandandrocks said:


> Just read this whole thread. I was a skeptic about this build until i saw this...
> Great job and keep up the great work.


Thanks! Good thing it was ALMOST! That would have been messy without a diaper on and even with a diaper on you could have a blow out... I sure know about those know with having an almost 5 month year old. :lol:



Rick_Lindsey said:


> Wow, I come back a few months later and you've gone from scary pvc concoction (sorry) to interesting and pretty cool looking cichlid condos to WOW! Amazing looking tank. I'm not normally a big fan of planted rift lake tanks but wow, that looks good. The background looks reaaly excellent with that algae growing on it and the plants are filling in nicely. Just wow. Me likey.
> -Rick (the armchair aquarist)


Thanks Rick! After the picture on the site I actually took all of my back drop out of the tank and smashed most of the individual cave dividers to smithereens. The front of my backdrop still looks the same (besides algae... GRRRR!) just the back is more open. It seems that the fish DO NOT like a cave with only one entrance. Even with having Peacocks I do have a few of them that like to go into the caves but most of my fish are beggars (unlike the Mabuna's I use to have).



Huskfan13 said:


> Dude you are way more patient than I am. If I can ask what is total cost of your tank how it sits now? How much $ went into the scrapped ideas? Nice tank and I commend you for definitely thinking "outside the box" on your background.


Thanks Huskfan. How much did I actually spend on all of this.... Hmmm I think I stopped counting once I hit 2 grand or was it 3... I can't remember when I stopped (that or I just don't want to think about it). :lol: It's an addiction but better then and cheaper then being addicted to cigarettes. There are still a few things that I would like to do to the tank. A slight add-on to the sump to include sock filters, and a few lights behind the one's that i currently put in. I probably spent $150 - $250 on scrapped ideas.

My tank has been at zero nitrates for over 2 months and still holding strong but I still have a bunch of algae that loves to grow on my backdrop. I still haven't installed the CO2 system. I just am scared to set up the system now that most of my fish are getting large and would be quite expensive to replace them all if the CO2 system dossed them with a large amount of CO2. I'll post a picture of the tank in it's current state soon. Thanks for all of your comments.


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## SandBagger

WOW! 4 days it took me to get through this! But what a great payoff at the end! And what a great thread. Congrats on your tank. Amazing persistence. When I got to the part about the leak, I literally got a pit in my stomach, but you took it on like a man and fixed it. I'll admit I was skeptical about the look of the background when it was out of the tank. But it is beautiful now!

Maybe add some plants to the background itself like you did with the rock on the left? Ha, far be it from me to critique anything you've done here though....just awesome!


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## Agridion

Here is my tank as it currently stands, some pictures are a little blurry. The backdrop has a bit of algae on it which I am hoping to abolish once I set up the CO2 system.


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## Agridion

SandBagger said:


> WOW! 4 days it took me to get through this! But what a great payoff at the end! And what a great thread. Congrats on your tank. Amazing persistence. When I got to the part about the leak, I literally got a pit in my stomach, but you took it on like a man and fixed it. I'll admit I was skeptical about the look of the background when it was out of the tank. But it is beautiful now!


SandBagger, thanks for the complements on the tank. When I had the leak I felt like taking a sledge hammer to the **** thing, but I am glad I didn't. When I was re siliconing the tank for the second time I was surprised how crappy my first silicone job really was. The first time I used 2.5 tubes as opposed to 1 the second time.


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## Exevious

wonderful!!

Puts mine to shame!!


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## slyons93

good thing it was slow at work today.... Took me a while to read all this. Great job start to finish. The final product looks amazing. Cant wait to upgrade my 55 and have so much room to play with! Great job!


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## Shahlvah

Iapplaud you in the building / setting of this tank, it looks fantastic!!! and congratulations on the baby boy...when ever he was born. I just read your post.

Great work!!!


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## Agridion

I wasn't quite happy with the lighting in my tank so I added some LED lights on the back of my canopy with Polycarbonate covers. Here is the link. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=255113. I will post a few pictures of the tank with the lights on and off. I love how the Actinic lights bring out the colors in the Aulonocara cichlids.


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## xWingman48

The new lighting looks pretty interesting. You should post a full tank shot with the new lights so we can see what they look like. I'm also interested in seeing what the tank looks like now...


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## cantrell00

Are those CFL's laying on the glass? 

Are they plugged into some type of water tight socket with a cord on it?


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## Agridion

xWingman48 said:


> The new lighting looks pretty interesting. You should post a full tank shot with the new lights so we can see what they look like. I'm also interested in seeing what the tank looks like now...


xWingman48 I will take a few pictures of the tank tonight and post a few shots of them as well.



cantrell00 said:


> Are those CFL's laying on the glass?
> Are they plugged into some type of water tight socket with a cord on it?


The CLF's are over open water... Yep open water and they get splashed on all the time by the fish. The CLF's are screwed into an outdoor fixture (the ones that you piecemeal together from Menards/Homedepot) that has some sort of high temperature foam/rubber gasket to keep the water out of the socket. I have had no issues with them being over open water and water getting into the sockets. If you want I can post a few pictures of how they are installed. I may have also posted pictures of how I built them several pages ago. I can't remember.


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## Agridion

xWingman48 said:


> The new lighting looks pretty interesting. You should post a full tank shot with the new lights so we can see what they look like. I'm also interested in seeing what the tank looks like now...


My tank is a bit cloudy because I was messing with the substrate 30 minutes before the pictures so I will snap a few tomorrow once the water is crystal clear again. But here is what my tank looks like now.

Without the LED's on. Tank only lit by the 6500K CLF's









Tank lit with LED's and 6500k CLF's


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## theoryguru

Nice. :thumb:


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## ratbones86

Looked good you hid the PvC pipe Pretty well and it turned out great. How hard is it to clean the caves out?


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## Agridion

ratbones86 said:


> Looked good you hid the PvC pipe Pretty well and it turned out great. How hard is it to clean the caves out?


Hey ratbones86, sorry for the delayed response; I've been busy with my little one and another on the way.

I actually don't clean the caves out because I haven't had the need to yet. They stay really clean on their own. Every once in a while I turn on the two fans I have on either side (built into the background) to suck out Anything back there. When I have done this I usually only have a little debris come out. About a year ago I took the backgrounds out and opened up most of the individual caves. I found that my fish like a cave with an entrance and an exit. Having no gravel in the caves help minimize waste build up in the caves. Also my sump return is in the caves And that helps minimize waste buildup.


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## Fishkid12

Dude! Your tank is amazing!!!! :thumb: Love it!


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## SupeDM

Just found this thread and read it all. Amazing what a beautiful tank this turned out to be. Absolutely love the background. Persistance paid off there. I dont have half your motivation to try and try again and again. Just a quick question. How have the nitrates been. I was very interested in all the ways you were trying to keep them down.


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## Agridion

SupeDM said:


> Just found this thread and read it all. Amazing what a beautiful tank this turned out to be. Absolutely love the background. Persistance paid off there. I dont have half your motivation to try and try again and again. Just a quick question. How have the nitrates been. I was very interested in all the ways you were trying to keep them down.


Nitrates were not bad. I probably should have changed their water more often than I should at times. :-(

Unfortunately we are planning on moving so we are taking down the tank, :-(, and I won't be bringing the fish with me to the new place because it will be such a hassle. So I am selling them on http://www.gcca.net/classifieds/view-and-post-ads#.VFbPJDR4rhA.

Here are some final pictures of my fish and Tank.


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## darylmac

This is not the end though, right? Just a new beginning with new fish, in a new home??? Keep us posted and be sure to let us know what you stock it with!


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## Fish Jerk

Having a bunch of caves on the back wall doesn't work very well. Your real job is to break up line of sight in the tank as much as possible. Once they are out of sight they are out of mind, but if they can see them go into a hole then they will follow them in and keep at them. So you want to have breaker walls of rock irregularly spaced from front to back that block sight from one end to the other. If they can first go behind a wall and THEN hide they will completely fool most of the fish unless they are truly hot to kill them, which seldom happens.

Plus I would put some plates and pots on the ground and generally the whole ground should be covered with little puts and lava rock that they can hide in. Plates should be of the color of fish you want to breed - the socolofi for example will just spend all day strutting their stuff on top of the blue plate and trying to attract a female.

A good african tank should look almost like there's more rock than water, but with clever placement you can keep from actually using up too much of your water volume on rocks. Plus tons of fish to keep agression low and tons of dither fish too like some black skirt tetras, some silver dollars and so on that break up eye contact a lot. Sometimes fish who think they are tough will stare down anyone who they come across, and if neither blinks eventually they fight. But if some fish swims between then usually that's it, they take that as an excuse to just move on like nothing happened.

I like to keep an eye out for lava rock. It's expensive in stores but you can often pick it up for free if you keep your eyes peeled. Then just take a drill and you can bore out a bunch of small holes or a couple large ones in just a few minutes.



Agridion said:


> What about 6500K? Today I went to Menards and picked up some supplies for 2 DIY light strips, each having 4 100W 6500K, 1600 lumens, CPF. So that will be 8 CPF lamps for the tank.
> 
> Think that will be enough alone?


You want to get 2 or maybe 4 4 foot fluorescents running across the top of your tank at 6500k. The reef ones are not any use for you really. Two is fine for most plants the depth is what matters most, and you will not be able to plant the whole tank you should just have them towards the front for the most part unless you want to spend a ton on lighting. And there is no real point because with africans you can't have all that many plants anyway and the lighting needs for the ones you can have are low. So seeing the contents of the tank is really the most important for lighting and you could even get away with one 4 ft lamp for that.


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## jpbdh4

Just read this whole thread. Wow. Well done sir. I now feel like I'm underperforming around the house. Going to go now and mow the grass and try to regain some of my manliness. You've inspired me to take it to the next level and put a diagonal cut on the yard. Thanks.


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