# ID for a friend -greshakei or pyrsonotos



## dmarfitt (Sep 3, 2012)




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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

I'd say Met. greshakei.


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## Demigod (Mar 22, 2013)

GTZ said:


> I'd say Met. greshakei.


+1


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## dmarfitt (Sep 3, 2012)

Thanks guys


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

well, if the barring can get very black, then Pyrsonatos. If only faint barring that can fade completely while still being sort of violet light blue, then Greshakei. if sort of inbetween... well, who knows if pure. The pics looks like the barring/face is a bit dark for a Greshakei. The fins are nice reddish thou, better than most of the mass market available.


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## jcabage (May 29, 2012)

noki said:


> well, who knows if pure.


This is the attitude you should adopt toward any fish that wasn't sold to you by a reputable source as a pure, scientifically named specimen, IMO.

It definitely looks greshakei over pyrsonotos to me as well, but it might be safe to stick with something like "red top zebra" at this point :thumb:


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

jcabage said:


> noki said:
> 
> 
> > well, who knows if pure.
> ...


True enough.
But I can't see how this fish could possibly be _Metriaclima pyrsonotos_. Every picture of _M. pyrosontotos_ I can find has the striping going right into the dorsal fin, which this fish clearly does not. Most have a marking on the anal fin that this fish does not. The barring of _M. pyrosonotos_ is thicker....more like a zebra-type. The body/head shape and coloration seem to fit _M. greshakei_


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## jcabage (May 29, 2012)

BC in SK said:


> jcabage said:
> 
> 
> > It definitely looks greshakei over pyrsonotos to me as well


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

jcabage said:


> BC in SK said:
> 
> 
> > jcabage said:
> ...


Yes, I know we agree.Just wanted to point out, whether or not it is pure _Metriaclima greshakei_.......It certainly can't be pure _M. pyrsonotos_


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## Demigod (Mar 22, 2013)

Here are a few pics of mine for comparison:

Male:









Female:









Males:


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

There are (were?) four populations of "Red Top BB Zebra", not sure if the scientific name really has been settled, but if you had one of those males... the black bars would go intense black at some point, depending on mood. If the black bars do not go black, well, it is not a pure Red Top BB. If the fish above never gets darker barring, he cannot be a Pyrosonotos.

There are two "Red Top Cobalt Zebra", without solid barring. The Greshakei(no OBs) and the Mbenji (which has a lot of OBs in the population). I think the Mbenji used to be popular, but then the Greshakei become more popular in the 90s?

A lot of fish they sell now, it is hard to tell if they are pure.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Just to stick my nose in...here's a female displaying male coloration, pity I couldn't get a side shot, it's quite something to see and doesn't happen very often, at least in my tank.










Comparison


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## Demigod (Mar 22, 2013)

Of all the fish I own these are the worst with impersonation. Since they're all about 3-4" now I just go by the anal fin. I have 1 that I am certain is a female.. female coloring and very round anal fin, and 2 others that I was sure were females, even had the store vent them when they were younger, that turned out to be male with distinctively different anal fins, both pointed and getting longer, and 1 confirmed male. Having not had the time or inclination to vent them all myself I would go back and forth all the time between which sex I thought they were. Now that they're larger I ended up with the exact opposite of the ratio I wanted. 3M/1F. The female being the largest by over an inch. Wish they would just breed!


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Sorry if its not a recent import then assume its a "Red top zebra" (generaly a cross of Metriaclima/Maylandia species) some look more like greshakei and others look more loke pyrsontos but they are mostly hybrid I think.

Nice enough guys and as so many in the hobby no real reason not to keep and breed. Just do not give it a species name that is a guess.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Erm I guess I should say some of the folk who are trying to help you do not have pure M.greshakei or M.pyrsonotos iether.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

24Tropheus said:


> Erm I guess I should say some of the folk who are trying to help you do not have pure M.greshakei or M.pyrsonotos iether.


That's a fairly broad statement. Care to clarify?


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Both are in areas its no longer legal to catch and export from. esp _Metriaclima pyrsonotos_ Kind of stands to reason. Both been in the hobby for 20+ years without many new imports. Folk are bound to keep stuff bred from a mix.
Unless you can get pure from the lake or get proven provenance then they are all "Red Top Zebras" to me.
And should be sold as such.

Its not proof, I know but on the balance how careful do you think Mbuna breeders are? Given that when imported they all came in as Red Top Zebras or often miss Ided as the species division came much later?

**** I for sure dunno if yours have proven provenace as bred from WC. If so then you should kind of show it?


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Kind of admit my feeling is most are hybrid in the hobby wheather labled up as one or the other.
I can provide no proof. But then its hardly needed given the Mbuna cichlids get bred and distributed?


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Its not that they are not breedable nor that they are not nice fish but unless you have provenace back to genuine to WC then they are suspect hybrid to say the least.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

So because the fish in question haven't been exported in a while, and because mbuna breeders aren't 'careful', my greshakei are likely hybrids. I suppose it's possible, although it seems like a bit of a leap to come to that conclusion.
I was under the impression that hybrid greshakei were fairly easy to spot, certainly after spawning a few times and observing the offspring.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

If they display bars then they are not wild type _greshakei_. Pretty much as simple as that.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

24Tropheus said:


> If they display bars then they are not wild type _greshakei_. Pretty much as simple as that.


Well this picture taken in lake Malawi, shows the bars are certainly visible http://malawicichlids.com/mw09008i.htm They describe it as "faint vertical bars".
I would of thought "faint vertical bars" to be the 'normal', typical look of the fish.......with the possibility of more prominent barring, dependant on a particular mood/state the fish might be in(?).


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Though I do see the point of the aquarium strain 'red top zebras' as being fairly unlikely to be pure........sort of reminded of this by the fact that my last link mentions the more recently described _M. mbenjii_ as questionably distinct.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I may be biased. One of the first Mbuna I ever bred in numbers was _M.greshakei_. Mine displayed no bars (unless realy badly stressed) for generations. Yep kind of a bit sweeping to say all can not. Some variation in wild types is normal. But looking at the so called _M.greshakei_ on the market these days well, for sure got more barring than I am used to.
Calling em "Red Topped Zebra" at least gives the customer the clue that they do not look much like wild _M.greshakei_
Otherwise we are kind of F1 F2 milarky.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Mind you back then we simply called and sold em as Ice blue, red top zebras. :wink:


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## jcabage (May 29, 2012)

24Tropheus said:


> kind of a bit sweeping to say all can not. Some variation in wild types is normal.


Not to "stir the pot" as they say, but it would seem that greshakei that show absolutely no barring seem quite a bit more rare than those that do. What makes you think that the strain you had was such good quality? In all fairness, they could just have easily been a low quality strain - lacking the more natural barring.

You could compare this discussion to the fact that some would like to think wild L. caeruleus (Lions Cove) don't ever exhibit bearding. It all leads back to natural variation.

Our greshakei are not traceable to a wild population, but they were purchased from a reputable source listed as Metriaclima greshakei - they do exhibit slight barring as well. Also, it's just a matter of opinion, but GTZ has a great looking strain in my book, barring or not :thumb:


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Erm hate to bring names into it. Mine were from Thringstone aquatics the only UK importer from Stuart Grant at the time in the UK. If they were wrong, well I will eat my hat.  
Sadly lots are wrong these days. I dunno if they are not pure and have suffered from generations of inbreeding/breeding or hyrbid but for sure they are not the same.


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