# F1 Cyno. Hara (Gallireya) & F1 Pseudo. Demasoni Fry



## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

I will use this thread to record the progress of my fry. Though they were not born in my tanks haha lol. The dems will arrive next week, i thought i would start with the cyno's.

On wednesday I bought 10 _F1 Cynotilapia Sp. "White Top Hara" Gallireya Reef_ from a home breeder. I managed to get some reasonably clear pictures. Im surpised at how fry this small can show such nice distinct barring, however they do not show thier adult colouration. They are less than an inch in length and some even show tiny eggspots. The parents were some of the most impressive looking mbuna i have ever seen. The breeder claimed the WC parents even "glowed in the dark" lol. I hope this is true for the F1's when they are older. Though I have never seen this before, so doubt it...

The fish just finished feeding, so ignore the 'beer bellies'!


























I especially like the dorsal fin:


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

Even at a 3-4 weeks old, the Cyno. Hara's (Gallireya) have begun digging out small territories under the rocks.

More pictures:

























The _21 Pseudotropheus Demasoni F1 Fry_ will be dispatched by another home breeder tomorrow, for arrival on wednesday. They will go in the same 30g tank with the cyno's.....


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

They look nice, harveyb27...

But I wouldn't put 21 demasoni in with them at this stage! Once they are more mature, there will be more distinctions between them...


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

I got the shipment this morning and finished a 1 hour 45 min acclimation process. The fry are between 1cm and 2cm in size. Sorry *cichlidaholic* but they are already in the same tank, plus i have no where else to put them (they would become food in my other tank). I didnt think there would be any problems as they are all so small. The Cyno. fry are a little bit bigger than the Demasoni fry.

I thought because there are 31 fish in the 30g, the overcrowding would supress any aggression. I didnt think they would be very aggressive at this size, though i will keep an eye on them. Once they grow to about one inch i thought the overcrowding would be a beneifit as no single fry could be singled out. Plus the cyno. and dems were added whilst young and in a short time gap.

The grow out tank is in my bedroom, so they will experience little disturbance. I will post pictures tommorow as i do not want to turn the lights on today.

Demasoni Father:










Demasoni Mother (Holding):


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

Nice looking Dems.


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

Thnks, but the parents are not mine.

The fry however, are all mine. I got a few pics of the Demasoni fry (about 2cm):


























Even though they are fry, it looks like there may be 3-5 dominant males that have coloured up unbeleivably well considering they were shipped overnight and just put into a totally new tank. I assume i will have more males that may be sub-dominants.


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

Im currently feeding the fry spirulina flakes. I do 35% water changes a week (or more if necessary). What i want to know is a good estimate of how long it would take the 2cm-ish fry to get to about 2 inches?

Some close-ups:


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

Most of the dems have coloured up within a few days. The smaller ones seem to love to swim towards the side of the tank with most flow. :fish:

Here is a picture the breeder sent me before i purchased the demasoni:








_(If you look into the top left you will see one of the dems has one broken bar. I told the breeder to send me ones with perfect barring. All have prefect barring except one. I am about 95% sure that it is the one in the picture. It has exactly the same barring on both sides of its body)._

*Does anybody have a good estimate of the growth rate of demasoni fry?*


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## Super Turtleman (May 21, 2007)

IME, it will take about 4-6 months for them to reach 1.5" to 2". That's just me though. Others have claimed faster growth rates but I don't know. Maybe someone else will chime in.


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## mikeshae (May 28, 2009)

nice fish :thumb:


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

thanks...

I have a problem, but i dont know what it is...

The fry have been fine. All the fry seem very healthy and i have been performing 30% water changes every week I have fed them spirulina flake. Last week i noticed i was a few demasoni down. Today i saw a dead one on the bottom of the tank. Its eyes were missing, and its belly was like it was cut out. Im not sure is this is just the dead carcus rotting of if the fish ate it. I think its weird that the eyes were missing, maybe they are the early parts to go.

Anyways i think i have lost about 4 demasoni fry. I still have all 10 haras. The water parameters are fine for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and ph. I also noticed two of the dems have started to hide behind the intakes and heater which are all in one corner. Though they do come out when fed. Maybe they are claiming territory. One of the dems follows the intakes and heater along its belly and swims mostly vertically.

I'm really confused and have not seen any aggression issues.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

> I also noticed two of the dems have started to hide behind the intakes and heater which are all in one corner. Though they do come out when fed. Maybe they are claiming territory. One of the dems follows the intakes and heater along its belly and swims mostly vertically.


This is a strong indicator that these fish are the victims of aggression. I have witnessed the same thing happen when I had 3 male m. cyaneorhabdos and only 2 females - that's when I knew I had to get rid of the extra males and get some more females.

With Demasoni, things are a bit different in that they are best kept in larger groups and multiple males per group are possible. Still, something about your setup is resulting in Demasoni who are stressed and possibly victims of aggression. It is also possible that there is a sickness spreading through your tank and once the victims of the illness get weak, the other fish prey on them (I would say this is less likely based on your description).

As a short-term solution, I would lower the temperature 1-2 degrees and keep the tank lights off. This will lower activity levels (and thus aggression) a bit in case that is the problem.

Remind us:
How many Demasoni fry you started with and how many you currently have left?
What size tank are you keeping them in (footprint)?
Do you have lots of rockwork set up?


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

I started with 21, i think i may now have between 15-17.

36x12x17"

There are only a few rocks. Should i add a lot more or take them all out?

I have just switched the heater from 26 to 24oC. The same fish went back to the intakes after i finished putting the heater back.

The lights are always off except feeding and checking for disease, during the day they are still able to see as the room has good sunlight. The sunlight does not directly hit the tank though. I thought if they had less light there would be less aggression.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

> There are only a few rocks. Should i add a lot more or take them all out?


I think either of those options is better than just having a few rocks. I might try taking them all out first. Anyone with experience raising 1 inch Demasoni want to chime in here?

Edit: For lowering temperature, I was talking in Fahrenheit - so maybe only lower 1 degree C.


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

I have changed the temp to 25oC now, so only lowered it by 1oC.

I will take out the few rocks i have or add a lot more, depending on what others with demasoni think...

It may be easier to keep an eye on them with no rocks.


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## youngman (May 16, 2009)

those dems look gr8, fancy shipping some over to co.antrim matey ?!?


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## bluebbo (Feb 7, 2009)

I feel like the problem isn't from aggression. 20+ 1 inch dems in that tank size should be enough to disperse the aggression. I have about (8) 1inch dems with about (15) 2-4 inch dems and there isn't enough aggression even from the biggers ones for the smaller ones to die.

What I would do is to monitor the fish closely because maybe it could be bloat or some internal parasite. If your fish aren't eating, it might be a sign. These things spread, so you must find the cause quickly before all your other fish are affected.

First I would remove all the rocks. It's either none are a lot of rocks with these fish. You might have created territory warfare with a very limited area. Also if you remove all the rocks, it will make it easier for you to see whats going on. Hope this helps, and keep us updated. Good luck.


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## iplaywithemotions (Dec 18, 2008)

Sweet pics, thanks!


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

I just took all the rocks out and checked the health of all fish.

I definately have 16 dems and 10 haras! So 5 dems have died. I only noticed 3 so the other two must have been eaten, rot away or taken up by the intake.

The dem that was hovering around the intake and heater looks like the healthiest one off all! He is the boldest and brightest. It did not look like bloat, however it does seem like it just wants to stay in one spot.

I noticed that all thre fry had a pinkish/red area near the gills. Is this normal as they are very small and you can kinda see through their gills. Or may that be the problem?


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## bluebbo (Feb 7, 2009)

Signs of bloat are hard to tell. I had bloat once, and noticed that the fish was the darkest and the nicest looking. Just keep monitoring and make sure you don't see white feces. If they aren't eating all of a sudden, you should be concerned.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You have aggression in your tank, that's why the one is hovering by the intake heater. I'd remove him to the hospital as a preventive. Meanwhile, check every fish every time you feed to be sure you see them eating. If you did have one or more bloat cases, it can sweep through your tank but it is deceiving and may take only one fish per month.


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

I realised the food i was feeding them (spirulina flake) had gone off ages ago. Total amateur mistake!

I think this may be the problem. In fact it must be. I found another dead dem today with one eye missing. All the dems and haras are feeding. Im no longer feeding them the wrong food. There are now 4 dems hovering around the filter intakes. Are they avoiding each other or trying to get a territory now the rocks have gone?

I noticed one of my haras had very light feaces. But the dems feaces remain green.??

Fish count: 15 dems, 10 haras.


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## bluebbo (Feb 7, 2009)

some spirulina contain more protein you think. make sure you get ones that are in the lower range. i personally feed my dems/haras NLS. dems are very fickle with food. my amateur mistake earlier on was brine shrimp with spirulina. fed them only once a week, but the second time, 2 of my dems got bloat and had to treat them. after that i dont even think about buying a different brand food and have not had any issues since. if all ur fish are eating, it might be a good idea to get some anti-parasitic food.


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

This is what im feeding them now:

Nutrafin Max:
40% spirulina, 5% garlic, No artificial colourants, and vitamins A, C, E.

Typical Analysis:

protein 45%
oils and fat 12%
fibre 1.25%
ash 8.3%
phosphorous 0.75%
iron 400ppm
magnesium 0.21%
omega-3 fatty acid 1.3g/100g
omega-6 fatty acid 1.85g/100g

Should i not feed them for a few days to flush the bad food out?

I fear that the food i fed them may have caused for the food to rot early within the fish because it was not healthy to eat it in the first place (passed sell by date)!!??


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If you really think you had a food issue, add epsom salts and fast for a day and then feed veges.

However, having had Dems for 3 years in 3 different size tanks in populations from 9 to 30 I can tell you the one hiding is stressed. And stressed fish develop bloat eventually if the issue is not addressed. I'd remove that one and ensure the others are feeding. If each fish eats every time then you are good...until one stops.

IME, the hiding one will stop eating eventually if nothing is done.


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

I found another dem dead this morning! also with its eyes and belly missing.

All dems are eating, however i did see one was not. The LFS is closed for today, but tomorow i will get any medicaton i need. I fasted them yesterday incase it was because of the food.

Should i be medicating *bloat* or *internal parasites*?!

Should i still leave my temp at 24oC, or raise it to aid them in fighting thier illness?

Fish Count: 14 dems, 10 haras


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Leave the temp. Have you seen anyone with thready white feces? If yes, I'd say bloat. Remove any fish to the hospital that is not eating and has the thready white feces. Treat in the hospital tank with Clout according to the directions in the sticky in the Illness section (not the directions on the package).

To stop the spread in the main tank, treat with Metronidazole. I usually soak their food since they are still eating, and add any remaining medicine to the tank per directions.

Your LFS may not have these medications, I usually have to mail order them.


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

I do not have another spare tank. just the 55g and 30g. Could i medicate all the fish? To deny all possibilites of it staying behind. Is it safe?

What if i cant get clout? Alternatives?

Only saw white feaces from one of the haras, but not any of the dems. The hara is eating and very alert. They are small and i cant see any of the dems feaces. None of the dems or haras bellies have swollen!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I have never seen swelling. The white thready feces is pretty much for sure, and the not eating is first symptom.

You can treat the whole tank, but Clout, although very effective is also very harsh and stains the silicone permanently blue. You can try the Metronidazole only.

If you are going to keep Dems, you are going to need a hospital tank. In a pinch I use a 5G bucket and add cycled filter and heater. Once or twice a year I need to remove a victim fish, let him heal, and take him to LFS to avoid him sickening and starting the bloat epidemic.

The fish that is sick seems to have a huge population explosion of the "bug" in his gut and once you have one bloat death...it can sweep through the tank even though there is no longer any stress.


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

I just had a good stare at every fish in the tank. One of the dems has small white feaces. It is one of the dems hovering and staying close to the intakes. It is still eating though. I shall medicate the whole tank tomorrow for bloat.

Will the fish be able to take the medication?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You dissolve the met in a small amount of tank water and soak the NLS pellets in it. Before they turn to mush, you dump the whole mess in the tank.

Since the fish are mostly eating, they will eat the met soaked into the food. There will also be a LOT of met not absorbed into the food that will disperse in the tank water. The fish will also inhale the met when breathing through their gills.


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

That sounds like a very good idea!

Could the haras possibly be bullying the dems? They are a little bulkier and are unphased by the situation. I can move them to my 55g. Should i do this? Or do i risk contaminating that tank too?

Maybe i should medicate with met, and then move the haras?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'd medicate and wait a month until I move any fish. How big are these fish? You have 14 demasoni and 10 haras in a 30G tank?


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

yes, the dems are all less than an inch, about 2cm. the haras are all about 3cm but have much fuller bodies. the dems are quite streamline.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

It's pretty unusual to get bloat in fry (under 1.5 inch). Where are these fish going after quarantine? That's a lot of large fry for a 30G. Probably part of the problem.


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

I intend to grow them out in this 30g (about 1.5 inches). Then move them to a 125g.

No more fish have died. I went to a number of LFS to get advice. I then told a trusted local breeder their advice and the situation. You were right that no lfs would have clout or met. They had never really even heard of them. The home breeder which i got the haras from told me i would have to order those meds. He advised me to use OCTAZIN in a triple dose. He said this has been very successful with treating his fish with the same symptoms i have seen. I told him the fish were still very small, so we agreed to do just a double dosage.

I dissolved the tablets in tank water. After about 15 mins i poured the whole lot in the tank. I am supposed to repeat this tomorrow and the day after. I have left the filter running in the tank.

Fish Count: 14 dems, 10 haras.


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

Its been more than two weeks after medication (OCTAZIN) and there are no more signs of disease. There are much more rocks in the tank and no fish are hovering near the intake/outake or heater.

FISH COUNT: 14 Dems 10 Haras

I noticed one of the smallest dems has been attacked? It is less than 2cm in length and has a large chunk of its dorsal fin missing. I do not know if it was due to a hara or another dem, as i have been away for a week, whilst it happend. Will it grow the whole fin back like before? It has the beginning and end of its dorsal but is missing a middle part.


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## bac3492 (Jul 25, 2008)

I am no expert, however i have been raising fish for a few years. I feed only the adult fish Spirulina flake. It is made to enhance color. I actually feed fry that are under 2 inches with a higher protein flake.

The higher protein makes them grow faster IME. As long as your water quality is extra good. Water changes at least every week, you should have no problems with bloat.

More bloat problems will come from crappy water. A high protein food will make your fish more likely to get bloat if the water quality is not great.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

harveyb27, back on page one of this thread I warned you NOT to put the demasoni and white top fry together in the same grow out tank.

Now do you believe me? :wink:

You're having problems because you're housing them wrong.

They're fine together as adults, but not as fry.

Bloat is usually caused by stress, and stress can come in many different forms.


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## harveyb27 (Dec 15, 2008)

cichlidaholic said:


> harveyb27, back on page one of this thread I warned you NOT to put the demasoni and white top fry together in the same grow out tank.
> 
> Now do you believe me? :wink:
> 
> ...


I moved the haras into the 55g last night. Atleast this way i can see if the dems are being attacked by conspecifics or the haras.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

:thumb:


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## bluebbo (Feb 7, 2009)

45% protein is pretty high for spirulina flakes. hbh veggie flakes which i feed with NLS has 28%. i think the nls has around 34% protein. i can't tell you for sure if this is the culprit for the problems you are having, but from everything i've read, herbivores should be fed less protein.


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