# Please help ID



## Egg663

Hi,

I've had this fish for about seven years and have always thought of it as either a red devil or midas. But I've never been able to finds any pics that look like it. I've also thought it could be a female because of the smaller bump on it's head. It is about 7 inches long and lives alone in a 55 gal tank. Any help is appreciated.


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## cjacob316

either midas or blood parrot


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## SinisterKisses

For the most part, it looks like a fat severum. Absolutely not a midas.


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## Reiner

just a crazy hybrid (not a Midas for sure)


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## bernie comeau

SinisterKisses said:


> severum. Absolutely not a midas.


I agree. Mature 'golden' severum. Certainly not a midas and no reason to supose it is any kind of hybrid.


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## smitty

Definitely not a midas or purebred severum. After 7years does it matter you probably really care about the fish now.


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## Egg663

Thanks for the replies... No matter what is is, I do really love this fish. Very intelligent and playful!


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## bernie comeau

smitty said:


> Definitely not purebred severum.


Well, you tell me how this fish is NOT a purebred severum. Go through every single one of it's traits, markings ect, and tell me how this fish is not a severerum?


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## SinisterKisses

I'm curious, as well...


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## pumh

i'm no expert but it seems to me that it is a kkp a.k.a. king kong parrot with just more midas or red devil than the typical kkp


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## bernie comeau

Edit: don 't know why my posts are not showing up?


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## bernie comeau

Well, MAYBE , it just superfiscially resembles a severum....... but I really doubt it. Some more pictures would help but it seems to fit many characteristics/traits of a severum exactly:

1)Mouth ---has the mouth of severum, mouth of an RD/midas is much larger and much different. Mouth of a blood parrot-type is also much different and deformed.

2)Snout-----has the snout of a severum. RD/midas has a much more protruding snout; blood parrot type also is much different and deformed.

3) Gill plate opening----- same size, postion and shape as a severum. Midas/RD and blood parrot type are considerably different in this area.

4) Eye---- right look, color and postion in relationship to the head and face for this fish to be a severum.

5) Overall body shape----- has the right overall body shape to be a severum. A midas/RD has a much different body shape; I supose a Blood parrot type COULD have this shape as well, but are usually significantly shaped diffferent then this fish.
6) The way the dorsal and anal fin attatch to the body beside the caudal peduncle is like a severum,

I think some people don't realize that just about any CA/SA cichlid can develope a nauchal hump with age; even females. Seen many sevs in the past with a nauchal hump such as this one.
Some pics of golden sevs from the internet:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3169/3056546005_75322e6744.jpg
http://www.getahugetank.com/images/Gold_Severum_Cichlid.jpg
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/CichlidPIX/Red Severums IZOO 08 (1).JPG

I don't know how large or how old the fish was when you got it, but seeing that you have had it for 7 years, it is a very developed and mature fish. I supose a dorsal and anal spine and ray count might determine for sure what it is. I'm already convinced it's a severum, though a few more pictures might be helpfull.
Edit: 3rd try. should show up?


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## 24Tropheus

Take a look at what a severum looks like.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... hp?id=2449
Even the albinos
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... hp?id=2446

Please tell me you can see this is not a pure "Severum"

Mouth and shape is all wrong to me.
Has the look of a hybrid with a blood parrot.
I guess it could be pure Severum (line bred for many generations to look real wierd) but it sure has changed a huge amount from the wild types.

All the best James


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## SinisterKisses

You obviously haven't seen too many older severums. Once they start to age, this is what they start to look like. I fail to see how it has the warped, mutated shape of a blood parrot.


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## 24Tropheus

SinisterKisses said:


> You obviously haven't seen too many older severums. Once they start to age, this is what they start to look like. I fail to see how it has the warped, mutated shape of a blood parrot.


I kept a "Severum" for over 10 years so I think I know how they should look when old and pure. :wink:

Again it looks halfway between these two to me.


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## SinisterKisses

Still just an aged severum.


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## 24Tropheus

If it is and old Severum why is it only 7" rather than the 12" these guys grow to in 55g tanks?
The mouth is in the wrong place on the head for a Severum.
The scales show pearling (some enlarged) like a blood parrot unlike a severum.
The dip on the head at eye hight is like a blood parrot unlike a severum.
The dorsal and anal fin are not as long as a Severums.

I guess its all because its a female. :wink:

All the best James


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## Chromedome52

I've never seen proof of a sev getting 12" in a 55. They don't even get that big very often in a 125. If all fish reached their maximum potential, there would be a lot more trophy bass in the lake. A fatty diet will also make the fish obese without making it grow particularly big, especially an omnivore that requires some veggies.

The mouth is better placed for a _Heros _than for an _Amphilophus _based mutant. It is clearly near subterminal like all _Heros_, not terminal like an _Amphilophus _- even the Bloody Parrot kind.

The pearling you speak of is another result of obesity. It can happen on any Cichlid. It is often seen on the Bloody Parrots because of the way they are misshapen, but it can happen on Severums, too.

The dip is at the bottom of a nuchal hump, which is another manifestation of obesity. Cichlids deposit fat in the forehead first. I've even seen it in obese Mbuna.

The anal goes off the edge of the photo, and the dorsal is folded down behind the caudal, so it is not possible to tell how long they are. However, if you look at the dorsal spines, you will note that the membranous material extends above the spines before it cuts down in front of the next spine. This is common to all _Heros_, makes their dorsal look more flat on top. On _Amphilophus _the spine extends above the membrane, which angles down from a point below the tip of the spines. That is why _Amphilophus _look like their dorsal spines are sharper. This is even visible in the mutants.

It is an Old, Fat Severum. Trust me, I know Old and Fat. :roll:


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## 24Tropheus

Thank you for taking the time to explain your point of view mate. A true sine of a true expert.
I could go on to say the Blood parrot cichlid is guessed to be a hybrid cichlid. The fish was first created in Taiwan in around 1986. Its parentage is unknown, but the most commonly speculated pairings are midas cichlid (Amphilophus citrinellus) with the redhead cichlid (Paratheraps synspilus) and the "Severum" (Heros efasciatus) with the red devil cichlid (Amphilophus labiatus).

So traits of Amphilophus traits are not unusual in Blood parrots or blood parrot crosses as are Heros traits or Paratheraps traits but seeing one or another does not rule out the possibility that it is a hybrid with blood parrot in it.
I may be wrong on this guy. But think its so hard to tell with line bred fish exactly what thier make up is or was in the past as they are so far from stuff that is properly studdied or understood.

I think that because it shows lots of Heros traits it could be pure Heros but I sure would not bet on it. :wink:
I would bet if a DNA test was done on it that we would find at least a few genes from another genus or two.

All the best James


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## bernie comeau

24Tropheus said:


> I could go on to say the Blood parrot cichlid is guessed to be a hybrid cichlid. The fish was first created in Taiwan in around 1986. Its parentage is unknown, but the most commonly speculated pairings are midas cichlid (Amphilophus citrinellus) with the redhead cichlid (Paratheraps synspilus) and the "Severum" (Heros efasciatus) with the red devil cichlid (Amphilophus labiatus).


The blood parrot's exact lineage is UNKNOWN. Lot's of speculation. Though it does seems to have definate midas/RD traits. Some beleive it is nothing more then a deformed midas/RD, and is not even a hybrid. Some claim it has severum ancestory, though others, such as myself really doubt this. There are no real identifiable severum traits on a blood parrot, other then possibly how the anal and dorsal fin attatch to the body, close to the caudal peduncle.....but that is because it is a short bodied mutant. Who knows for sure.

One thing that is certain, is that a severum is not an easily hybirdized cichlid(outside of the genus Heros). Even the gold strain was already available in the late `60`s and it was a very commonly kept fish though out the `70`s. Yet, never heard of one case of anybody crossing this fish with a CA cichlid.....can`t find any examples on any fish fourum. Maybe it`s possible, but the fish is not very inclined to cross, like a CA cichlid would with another CA.


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## 24Tropheus

Thanks again.
I dought breeding a CA with a SA cichlid would present much of a problem to those deliberatly making hybrids. One thing that puzzels me. Why does the blood parrot (and flowerhorn for that matter) not have a place in the profiles here on cichlid forum? Is a very common fish and there are a lot of keepers with them. There are also other man made cichlids on the profiles.
Kind of waiting for a DNA study to reveal the true pairentage of em? Though I guess folk with access to this tequnology have better things to do with it. :thumb:

All the best James


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## Furcifer158

opcorn:


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## smitty

bernie comeau said:


> smitty said:
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely not purebred severum.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you tell me how this fish is NOT a purebred severum. Go through every single one of it's traits, markings ect, and tell me how this fish is not a severerum?
Click to expand...

Check out the front of the face and the body. Look like to me it has some cross with a parrot fish. I could be wrong about the two fish that produced this fish but I don't think I'm wrong about it not being a purebred.


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## frontosaSo

Def a Sev.


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## GTZ

Furcifer158 said:


> opcorn:





GTZ said:


> opcorn:


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## SinisterKisses

smitty said:


> bernie comeau said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> smitty said:
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely not purebred severum.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you tell me how this fish is NOT a purebred severum. Go through every single one of it's traits, markings ect, and tell me how this fish is not a severerum?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Check out the front of the face and the body. Look like to me it has some cross with a parrot fish. I could be wrong about the two fish that produced this fish but I don't think I'm wrong about it not being a purebred.
Click to expand...

The front of the face is due to age, quite common with old severums. The body is just a result of it being fat.


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## 24Tropheus

Now that looks like an overfed albino Severum.










I am being a pedant but what the ****.
This does not.










I kind of give up if you guys can not see the many differences.
Sure the mouth can look bigger later but not mutated out of shape with age. The fins........... Ah I could go on. There is more than a superfical resemblance to a good blood parrot I think. :wink:

All the best James


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## bernie comeau

W'ell start with the eye, and go through a few characteristics of the fish in question.

Eye of a 'golden' sev:









Another pic of an eye of a 'golden' sev:









Eye of fish in question:









Eye of a blood parrot:








Another pic of an eye of a blood parrot:








Eye of a king kong parrot:









Note the very round shape of the black middle part of the sev eye....just like the fish in question. Also note the white rim on the black middle part of the sev eye.....look closely at the eye of the fish in question and this is visible. A sev has a larger eye; it protrudes more from the socket. It is bright red-orange.The eye of a blood parrot and king kong parrot is pretty much the same as an RD/midas.


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## bernie comeau

Mouth and Snout.

Mouth and snout of a golden sev:








Mouth and snout of fish in question:








Mouth and snout of a blood parrot:








Another pic of blood parrot's mouth and snout:








Mouth and snout of a king kong parrot:








Basically, there was no way of cropping the same amount of snout of a blood parrot , with out getting at least some of the eye in the picture :lol: The mouth is severely deformed so that it is stuck WIDE open. The snout is a completely different shape. the lips of the mouth are not even the same. many king kong parrots have the snout of a midas, such as the one pictured, though others are more like the deformed mouth and snout of the blood parrot. The profile of the fish in question's mouth and snout is pretty much a carbon copy of the golden sev pictured. same mouth; same lips; same shape to the snout.


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## 24Tropheus

So you are saying this and this look the same?
Severum








Mouth and snout of fish in question:









For sure it does not look like a "pure" blood parrot (but it does not look like the albino Severum iether)

Kind of at a loss for saying what it is. A new mutant Severum?

All the best James


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## bernie comeau

Not only does the fish in question have a nauchal hump, but also 'developement' in the area below the nauchal hump, between the eyes, in front of the face. I do not know what to refer to this area, but extra material in this area on mature cichlids , is not unusual what so ever. This makes an indentation right below the nauchal hump. This is distinctly different then the indentation on a blood parrot, which has nothing to do with 'developement' but rather is a genetic deformity. It looks completely different as the indentation is often on top of the eye, rather then in front of the eye. On some blood parrots, this indentation is actually behind the eye, as well as above it.
Blood parrot indentation:








Note the fact that this indentaion is directly above the eye...... NOT, on the front of it's face like the fish in question.
A pic of a 'mature sev' with 'developement in this area:








Close up of this area between the eyes:








The fish in question's area between the eyes:








A pic of a mature 'golden' sev's area between the eyes:








Another mature sev with some 'developement' between the eyes:








Seen many mature sevs in the past with this bump below the nauchal hump......just like many other mature cichlids, especially CA/SA.
My male con:








My tilapia zilli:








Probably excess calories tends to develope this :lol: the sev pics from the internet show more detail, but the bumps on my two fish are very similar. My photos are not of suffecient resolution to show the intricate details but they show the similarity with this area to the fish in question.


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## 24Tropheus

Are you sure this guy is a mature Severum? For sure looks very odd to me.
A pic of a 'mature sev' with 'developement in this area:








Close up of this area between the eyes:
Think there may be more hybrids and mutants about than you, I think, think. :wink:

Getting a bit beyond the original post but unless these photos are from wild type and verified fish then they kind of only go to suport my guess that Severums (_Heros efasciatus_) are a much abused species inc the one first posted and most of these photos are usesless to try and prove it pure.

All the best James


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## bernie comeau

24Tropheus said:


> Getting a bit beyond the original post but unless these photos are from wild type and verified fish then they kind of only go to suport my guess that Severums (_Heros efasciatus_) are a much abused species


Of course aquarium strain sevs COULD be a mix of different Heros species.That goes for ANY aquarium strain sev, including the different 'golden' strains. But that a sev could be crossed outside of the genus Heros is quite an assupmtion given the fact there is no evidence anyone has done it yet, or that it is even possible. Over 50 years sevs have been in the hobby and nobody has reported crossing them with anything, outside of their own genus. Over the many decades this fish has been kept, lots and lots of people have kept them with CA cichlids, including myself.....it's well known they are not inclined, what so ever, to court CA cichlids.

The examples of sevs that I used from the internet, do not look odd to me. Maybe to you they do(?). No doubt, nothing odd for very mature cichlids to have 'developement' between the eyes.....and a sev is no diffferent then most CA/SA cichlids in this respect.


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## 24Tropheus

Stranger things have happend given the strange things folk do to get hybrids.




 :wink:

Not that I am saying CA cross with SA cichlid is possable. :lol:

OMG am I cynic or are you naive? CA cichlid hybridising with a SA cichlid presents no big problem if you are that way inclined.

Prob is is this a CA x SA hybrid, I guess not just a quite an odd looking (mutant) line bred Severum kept far too long in a 55g aquarium. With quite a lot of the look of a Blood parrot cichlid.

All the best James

PS iether a cichlid is wild type or it is a ****** about line bred guy or a ****** about with hybrid. Not that I see much difference between em. :wink:


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## bernie comeau

24Tropheus said:


> Stranger things have happend given the strange things folk do to get hybrids.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :wink:
> 
> Not that I am saying CA cross with SA cichlid is possable. :lol:
> 
> OMG am I cynic or are you naive? CA cichlid hybridising with a SA cichlid presents no big problem if you are that way inclined.


What's that link suposed to show?? It's some type of flowerhorn or CA hybrid. The fish doesn't even have the slightest superfiscial resemblence to a Severum. Never, ever, once, did I say that CA cichlids could not be crossed with some SA cichlids....since I have actually done so myself, I certainly would never say such a thing. No where is anyone making such a claim. The only claim I am making is that no such cross has yet been shown to be possible between a sev(Heros sp.) and a CA cichlid . If you think I'm mistaken then show me REAL evidence.......video footage of a severum and a CA cichlid tending their fry; or in the very least a picture of it.

Bottom line is, the fish in question has no blood parrot traits. And nothing that distinguishes it from a 'golden' sev


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## 24Tropheus

I think you may change your mind. Take a look at this thread and photos.
Erm rigged it up for the fun of it?
http://oscarfishlover.com/oscar-fish-ad ... 2&start=24

If it can be done by accident it sure can be done if you realy tried. :wink: 
The first link is of a fish claimed to be a flowerhorn severum cross dunno if it is true. :wink:

All the best James


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## bernie comeau

24Tropheus said:


> I think you may change your mind. Take a look at this thread and photos.
> Erm rigged it up for the fun of it?
> http://oscarfishlover.com/oscar-fish-ad ... 2&start=24


Well that definately puts greater probability that a sev could be crossed with a CA cichlid......but with out seeing any fry, that still leaves it up in the air whether or not such a cross can produce offspring. (And of course the question of whether or not the blood parrot has severum ancestory is another question altogether. That would likely have to mean that a midas/RD X severum cross produces fertile offspring).

In general, a severum pairing with a CA cichlid is not a common occurence in most people's tanks.....but no doubt, far stranger pairings have occurred. Unlikely, though should it occur, then the question becomes are they genetically similar enough to produce offspring (?). Same tribe (at least until the ichthyologists split them up even further :lol: ), but different clade. Many, many millions of years of evolution seperating a severum from a CA cichlid. It's conceivable that they are closely related enough to produce offspring; even viable offspring. But we have to see the fry; otherwise how does one really know if it is possible.


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## bernie comeau

24Tropheus said:


> I could go on to say the Blood parrot cichlid is guessed to be a hybrid cichlid. The fish was first created in Taiwan in around 1986. Its parentage is unknown, but the most commonly speculated pairings are midas cichlid (Amphilophus citrinellus) with the redhead cichlid (Paratheraps synspilus) and the "Severum" (Heros efasciatus) with the red devil cichlid (Amphilophus labiatus).


Some do claim that a blood parrot is the result of a cross between a "severum" (Heros efasciatus) and the red devil (Amphilophus labiatus). But actually in the literature on the early developement of the blood parrot and flowerhorn, told by Taiwan breeders who were involved, and are suposedely in the know, there is no mention of Heros efasciatus or any Heros sp., but rather the common name of 'golden severum' as a translation from Cantonese to English.

Much of this literature makes no sense at all, and is obviously false, if one takes this fish to actually be the fish we commonly refer to as a 'golden severum'. The Taiwan breeders claim to have developed the 'golden severum' in the 1980's. That it was a brand new strain, first produced by them in the 1980's, as the result of cross breeding, and that this new strain was used in the early developement of the blood parrot.
I don't have the book anymore, but I'm pretty certain there are pictures of 'golden' severums in Goldstein's Introduction to Cichlids , published in 1969. My older brothers had 'golden' sevs by at least as early as 1971. They were a commonly available fish through out the 1970's, so I think it most likely that the 'golden severum' used by Taiwan breeders to develope the blood parrot was an entirely different fish. As one speaker of Cantonese pointed out in a thread on MFK, it's a poor translation from Cantonese to English.
Even if a severum X CA cichlid cross could produce viable offspring, I'm not at all convinced a blood parrot has ANY severum ancestory.


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## Chromedome52

The fact is that most people who keep Sevs do not give them a proper diet, insufficient greens in particular. The usual foods given have too much protein and fat, which as I have mentioned, and Bernie has shown with the multiple _Heros _and even a _Tilapia _shot, ALWAYS forms deposits in the head area of Cichlids, American and African. I've even seen Mbuna with such deposits, as they often get a more fatty diet in the aquarium compared to Nature. IT IS JUST AN OBESE SEVERUM.

I think that perhaps you are a bit too cynical on the subject of hybrids, although I suppose the problem could be of greater concern on your side of the pond than it is here. Perhaps not cynical enough about prevaricators. IF that fish in the video is a cross, it has more _Amphilophus _characteristics than just a nuchal hump, and zero _Heros _characteristics. And two fish spawning together does not make for viable young, as Bernie pointed out. Not to mention that the degree of ignorance shown in that OscarFishLover thread was too much to even be funny.

My one problem with the fish being discussed was the color. However, I decided that the reason for the color of that fish was the aquarium lighting, which I've seen before and actually had happen with pictures I've taken myself. A white fish can look pink under certain types of aquarium lights. A yellow fish will appear pink/orange, as that fish does.


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## 24Tropheus

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. Sadly not all the evidence on my side or I guess your side is free to cichlid keepers. I would though stress most Severums in the hobby may well be hybrid. From years back. It is no great feat to cross one hybrid (as most of the real condenders are for the creation of the blood parrot were not wild type fish at all) with another be it originally a SA hybrid a CA hybrid or an African cichlid hybrid or other, kind of once you go down this track then who can figure it out later? The original records are not available for one reason or another. :wink:

All the best James


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## bernie comeau

24Tropheus said:


> It is no great feat to cross one hybrid with another be it originally a SA hybrid a CA hybrid or an African cichlid hybrid or other


I take from this statement that your of the beleif that basically ANY cichlid can be crossed with ANY cichlid; particularily once a fish has already been hybirdized. There are definate genetic limits that exist at some point. If not, then any fish could be crossed with any fish, and we know that is not possible.

More distant cichlid crosses such as an African X CA or African X SA has YET to be shown to be possible. It is conceivable that maybe some such cross could produce offspring.....though of course offspring that are fertile are another matter altogether.

Generally all the crosses that we see in aquariums are between cichlids of the same clade or at least with in the same tribe. Basically, between very closely related species.

The severums closest relative is suposedly the discus. Uaru and festivums, also being very closely related. These species make up the Mesonautine clade. Never heard or seen of crosses between the different types of these fishes, though lot's of people keep these kinds of fishes together. In general, I don't think this group of cichlids is very inclined to cross breed compared to many other cichlids.But such a cross should be more likely then a cross with a CA cichlid. Even an angelfish and true parrot cichlid are more closely related to a severum, then CA cichlids. A severum X CA cichlid cross is probably no more likely then a discus X CA cichlid cross. These kinds of crossess have YET to be shown to be possible......and of course you need to see the FRY being tended by the parents, otherwise it hasn't been demonstrated to be possible.

There exists limits somewhere of what can be successfully crossed, and what can not. At the level of tribe, generally, seems to be the limit. For example I have yet to see or hear of a cross between a Pseudocrenilabrini(Haplochromines, all lake malawi cichlids as well as other Africans) with a Tilapinini (mouth brooding Oreochromis, Sarotherodon and some substrate spawning Tilapias). Maybe it's possible, but I have never seen or heard of an example of it. Of course these two groups are a lot more closely related then they would be to any SA/CA cichlid. Even with in the same tribe........ I sort of doubt a pike cichlid could be crossed with a Geophagus :lol: , or a pike cichlid with a ram, or even an Apistogramma with a Geophagus.


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## azador

You guys should try watching "Mutant Planet", on the discovery channel. They just did an episode about African cichlids. It was very informative. Considering the many thousands of species of Africans that have sprung from just a few in the beginning, I would not cross out the probability of differing species breeding and hybridizing successfully. Try watching the episode I mentioned, you never know you might learn something new? Here's a good link about Blood Parrots, http://cichlidresearch.com/parrot.html
This guy looks an awful lot like the guy in question http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... marvin.jpg
I know, I know, not exactly the same, hence the term hybrid


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## bernie comeau

azador said:


> You guys should try watching "Mutant Planet", on the discovery channel. They just did an episode about African cichlids. It was very informative. Considering the many thousands of species of Africans that have sprung from just a few in the beginning, I would not cross out the probability of differing species breeding and hybridizing successfully.


Seen it. Pretty cool.Great video footage. Informative? No. Absolutely nothing new is told in this program. But really, what does this have to do with the identification of the fish in question, as well as the question of wether or not a severum can be successfully crossed with a CA cichlid to produce fertile offspring???

I am pretty sure that just about everybody is aware that different cichlid species can be hybirdized. No one doubts that.... the question being a cross between more distantly related cichlids, and where the genetic limits exist when it comes to producing fertile offspring. I think keepers of rift lake cichlids can get a distorted impression, that ANY cichlid could be successfully crossed with ANY cichlid. Lake Malawi cichlids ALL have recent common ancestory. They all belong to the tribe Pseudocrenibrini (Haplochromines).Considering that the lake may have dried out completely, about 500, 000 years ago, they may have common ancestory with in the last 1/2 million yrs. ; they are generally thought to have common ancestory with in no more then 3-4 million years ago, at the very most. But when it comes to all African cichlids , it has yet to be demonstrted that distantly related memmbers of different tribes can be successfully crossed. Show me an example of a Lamprogline X Pseudocrenibriline or a Tilapiine X Pseudocrenibriline, for example? And actually substrate spawner X mouth brooder has been shown to be possible (Tilapia zilli X Oreochromis moasambicus) if they are closely related species, so that is not neccessarily a limitation.

The fact that no fry came as the result from the blood parrot X severum cross would actually seem to suggest that maybe the cross is not possible. The thread is 2 years old.......you'd think the pair would have tried again and their would either be an update or a new thread showing fry?? And then of course, if there was fry then the question becomes are they fertile.....not all cichlid crosses are fertile. For example, the severum's closest ancestor, the discus, according to some discus breeders, can not even produce fertile offspring when crossed with in it's own genus!! The resulting offspring are sterile, at least according to some discus breeders.


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## azador

Sounds like a nature special should be done about South American cichlids? :fish: Seems like there isn't as much info about them as the Africans.


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