# Labored Breathing? Acei



## LVShootist (Dec 11, 2011)

My Yellow Tail Acei's appear to have labored breathing. Is it just me?
Here's a YouTube link.

(apparently I need at at least one post before I can put in a link. If that's the case please search "Cichlid Breathing" on YouTube.)

I had a couple die within the last few days, did a PW change yesterday and noticed my heater was broken. The tip broke off my fluval M200 and flooded inside but was still keeping the water moderately warm. The temp was running about 76, headed right out and got a new heater.

Could the breathing be an after effect of cooler temps for what I assume was several days? My other fish appear normal including a male yellow lab that is building a breeding nest as we speak.

55 gallon
0 ammonia 0 nitrites and 5 ppm nitrates
Temp 79 - 80
Yellow Tail Acei
Pseudotropheus Saulosi
Yellow Lab


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## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

not sure ,wht that is,if it was a lack of oxygen,I would think they would go to the surface,do you use a dechlorinator when doing water changes?if so how much and what did you use


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## LVShootist (Dec 11, 2011)

Just did another PWC and as always used Prime. I always use a little over dosage just to be safe. A little over 1 ML per 10 gallon bucket. This time I went to 1.5 ML, well just because.

On the last WC the filters were getting pretty dirty so I rinsed them out and tank water. I have a Fluval 405 which had (from the top to bottom) two layers of ceramic, and two layers of poly. Yesterday I put carbon back in so it's now one layer of ceramic, one layer of carbon and two layers of poly.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

What's your pH, GH and KH? What's your regular water change schedule like?


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## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

I have read somewhere that its possible to overdose with dechlorinators,something about sucking the oxygen out of the water,not that this is what theyre dealing with


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## LVShootist (Dec 11, 2011)

Update: losing a couple every day, I'm at a loss as to what to do. Been keeping up with my PWC every day, got some Triple Sulfa last night and added it this morning after the WC, changed out the poly and remove the carbon, for the first time noticed food on the surface this morning, (I work odd hours so I use an automatic feeder but not overfeeding) sometimes they all hide other times like now they're relatively active. On average I'd have to say the smaller ones have died first. I went a little crazy on the decorations so it's hard to get all the miscellaneous waste, so wondering if that has something to do with it. I'll be switching to sand this weekend and minimizing the rocks and driftwood. I wonder if it was just too polluted from waste and even with the PWC's they are suffering from some type of infection.

My Acei's seemed the most susceptible but I have lost a couple Saulosi's now. My Yellow Labs seem to be doing the best, with the exception of the biggest one. He was working like crazy building two different breeding nests, but it has been hiding for in the last couple days, and has a strange what I would call an old mans waddle under his chin. None of the others have this, the only common symptom is the heavy breathing for a couple days before they die. Help!?

0 Ammonia
0 Nitrite
0.5 Nitrate
8.2 PH
80 Temp


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm leaning towards toxin in the water due to the broken heater and now they're dealing with the after effects.
You're lab with the old man's waddle under it's chin sounds like a holding female.


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## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

I am by no means an expert in treating,but I,ll try to help,as you don't seem to be getting alot of help,I would make sure to do the testing properly and make sure that the kit is not expired
how long has the tank been set-up and cycled?
have they been eating and pooping normally,and are any of them appear bloated
my guess would be nitrite poisoning,in which case a large water change,prime and add an airstone or wand,or
an internal parasite ,bloat,but if they are eating and pooping normally,it possible they dont have this,long white thin stringy poo is what you are looking for


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## LVShootist (Dec 11, 2011)

As far as Waddles goes, does a female ever nest build? I'm thinking no but I could be wrong. Maybe he's just confused since none of the females are old enough to breed yet. Is it possible for a Cichlid to blow out its mouth from too much building?

It's been a little under two months since I finished the fishless cycle and stocked the tank. Test kit looks good and I've never noticed any unusual poo. After not eating this morning, the noon feeding came around and the ones that are more active ate just fine. A couple still hiding and breathing heavy and the one with the waddle is very skittish, which is very unusual for him.

Plenty of oxygen with one large wand, one medium wand and one small stone under the power filter outlet.

My second to last Acei didn't look very good when I had to leave for work.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Any chance you can post a pic or video of 'Waddles'? The swollen throat and reclusiveness are common indicators of a holding female.
How's the rapid breathing? Still as fast as before? Continuing with daily water changes?


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## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

Is this a glass heater that broke?Is it possible they ingested some of the glass,or they sifted through their gills?
I would stop messing with the filter,as it is still newly cycled,keep doing daily water changes as well as vaccuuming the substrate,if there is any glass


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## LVShootist (Dec 11, 2011)

Did my daily WC and added Triple Sulfa. Took the decorations out of half the tank and vac'd the substrate really good, tomorrow the other side. Don't see much labored breathing today, but unfortunitly thats because half my tank died off.

Noticed 2 of my Saulosi has a little bit of white stringy poo, uggg. I dialed back the amount of food I've been giving due to the loss of population, but maybe i didn't cut it back enough. Possable first sign of bloat right? Looks like tomorrow is a fasting day.

The glass heater had a clean break of about 1" from the tip so i don't think any glass got in there.

I'll try to get a pic of Waddles up here soon.

Thanks for the help guys.


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## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

normally,fish dont eat with bloat,white stringy poo with the saulosi?not good,how are they behaving and eating?maybe they are just now showing signs,that your other fish have sucumbed to,but then again laboured breathing,as far as I know isn't a symptom of bloat


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## LVShootist (Dec 11, 2011)

Now on my 3rd day of using Lifeguard all-in-one as a desperate attempt to solve whatever happened. Deaths are rare now and none for a few days but the population is down to about 9 of 22. (they were small and already had an arrangement with the petstore for trade once they where big enough to vent to a 1 - 3 or 4 ratio)

Most are hiding all the time and breathing pretty heavy still. I've done daily WC's and am wondering if whatever it was could be gone but now it's a matter of stress. There is an Acei and one Saulosi that swim around very actively, just as happy as can be, could the others be hiding because there are less to pick on now?

No stringy poop and water parameters are all good.


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## riverpaws (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm not expert, but in my experience hiding usually has to do with a parasite or a bacterial infection. Obviously there is no sign of ick and with no stringy white poo, probably not internal parasites, but have you considered other protozoan parasites? Ick is the easiest to see, it is often much harder to see some of the others, definitely would cause heavy breathing and sitting on the bottom.

Do your fish have very slight grayish patches on them? Are their fins slightly ragged? Are any of them pinching their tails?


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

I think you have white spot.

I notice a few white floaties in that video.


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## riverpaws (Dec 7, 2011)

Nodalizer said:


> I think you have white spot.
> 
> I notice a few white floaties in that video.


Can ick make a fish pant that badly???


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

riverpaws said:


> Can ick make a fish pant that badly???


Yeah, the parasite likes to attach itself around the gills of the fish, making it hard for the fish to absorb oxygen.


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## LVShootist (Dec 11, 2011)

Finished up my 5 day treatment of Triple Sulfa. My biggest, most active and last Soulosi died yesterday. First death in awhile. He started sitting on the bottom then leaning on his side, occasional short swims and up righting himself, then the next day was dead. All that's left is one pretty active Acei and 5 labs that hide almost all the time.

Riverpaws said something that I just noticed today. "Pinching tail" I noticed one of my labs looks like this and wasn't sure if it was from being picked on. I'm going to search the term but tell me more about "protozoan parasites". What meds etc.

This really sucks. I'd equate it to feeling like an awful parent.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

tripple sulfa will wipe out benifial bacteria.

i would check ammonia and nitrites. Most likely that med has done more damage then good.

If your test kits show bad things, then i would prob go on a seachem stability or similar for a week or so until it fixes itself up.


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## LVShootist (Dec 11, 2011)

My bad, I misspoke. I finished up a 5 day treatment of "Lifegaurd all-in-one" is what I should have said. I did do a treatment of Triple Sulfa a while back but had no adverse effects when I tested before doing daily water changes.

I looked up the differant types of Protozoan Parasites but since I just finished using Lifegaurd shouldn't that have taken care of it? By the looks of everybody I would think not. Or maybe the recovery time is a little longer, or worse yet, is it possible that they have irreparable damage and it's only a matter of time? Or maybe Lifegaurd didn't target what is (or was) specifically wrong.

I don't want to medicate the **** out of them but if things don't improve what choice do I have. One of my labs is really not looking good.....

What is the wonder drug? I thought Lifegaurd would do the trick.


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## LVShootist (Dec 11, 2011)

The lab I was worried about died. 

Upon extreme close inspection I notice what looks like a blood vessel on the side of his body behind the gill flap. Not under the flap but next to it on his body. The gills inside looked a fleshy pink color.

Obviously there is some type of gill/breathing issue behind all this.

I'm desperate at this point.

Time for desperate measures........


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

i am not at my computer, so i don't have all my links, but i am 90% sure you have ich.

I would use mel blue and salt to bath the fishies in to give immediate reflief, then do a tank wide treatment of mel blue. Ich attacks the gills mostly, and the mel blue bath will increase the fishes ability to absorb oxygen imediately. I would make sure the surface is chopping up a lot to create as much oxygen as possible, and maybe tank one of the tank lids off.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Is there any physical evidence of ich on any of the fish?


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## riverpaws (Dec 7, 2011)

Lifeguard all in one, in my opinion, is a broad spectrum antibiotic that will sometimes work and sometimes not. It's a crapshoot, a hit and miss. I like the meds that are designed specifically for protazoan parasites, which sounds like, to me, what you have. I use "quick cure" (a mix of formalin/m. blue) which I have liked as it hasn't seemed to cut my bacterial filtration down as much as some of the others. It is very helpful if you have fish who are "pinching" their tails and who are hiding. Reclusive, panting, pinched-tail fish tend to equal either a bacterial infection, or a protozoan parasite infection, at least in my humble experience. Sometimes the parasite infection leaves room for another infection to take hold, like a bacterial one, and vice versa, so then you have the two going on...which may explain your red blood vessel behind the gill plate.

Salt is helpful, I think in this case. Aquarium salt is what I use. As I think has been mentioned before, you can turn the temperature up pretty high (though do it very slowly over the course of a week, a few degrees up a day), and then oxygenate the **** out of the water. Powerhead, increased filtration...whatever you have to do.

Out of curiosity, do the remaining fish have somewhat ragged looking fins, just on the end? Not like fin rot, or even the effects of nipping, but on the paired pelvic fins and the anal fin? By ragged, I mean it might look as if it is just a little frayed, not nipped, or taken a chunk out of or...you get the picture.


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## LVShootist (Dec 11, 2011)

I wrote a long reply but then got a phone call (Merry Christmas btw!!) I guess I closed it out before I sent it.

I did have ich (3 white spots on one fish) quite a while ago but used Kordon Rid-Ich and it disappeared quickly and everyone looked happy and healthy. There are no visible signs of ich right now but there is the ragged fins as mentioned and of course the rapid breathing and hiding.

Everybody is closed today but looking on the Petsmart and Petco sites neither seems to carry Methylene Blue or Quick Cure. (though I would have sworn I saw Quick Cure while browsing around) I'll call around to the privately owned LFS first thing Monday morning.

Guess I'm leery of salt from all the mixed reviews but I'm completely open to suggestion at this point. If I do go that route as well I'll get aquarium salt.


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## riverpaws (Dec 7, 2011)

Merry Christmas to you too! If you decide to treat for parasites here is a great article. Maybe you've already read this, but great article: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ich.php

FYI too, here is a treatment recommended to me by Nodalizer (who was quoting someone who's had very good luck beating ick) which is amazing (for advanced cases if you want to go all the way):



> For severe infections (especially with sensitive fish such as Clown Loaches) I would recommend a bath in Methylene Blue for as many fish as I could capture (especially the really sick ones that tend die quicker from ich such as Clown Loaches again). This bath will also help with the main reason ich kills (at least in my opinion), depletion of oxygen from damage to the gills (methylene blue is a hemoglobin transfer agent). To prepare this bath I use 1 teaspoon 2.303% solution per 5 gallons (double dose) in a bath of aquarium water from the tank the fish you wish to treat came from, I usually use about a Ã‚Â½ gallon of water, however you may use less. I also recommend about one teaspoon of salt (Sodium Chloride) per gallon of dip water to aid further in aiding the fish via production of more mucous.
> Measurement of the Methylene Blue does not need to be precise as this bath should be used for about 30 minutes. Make sure you keep the water in a warm area, as in a cold room the water temperature can drop rapidly which would stress the fish. Do NOT pour this water back into your display aquarium when finished. This can be performed twice per day. After this bath I would also suggest a 3 minute dip for most dire of fish in a salt solution of about 1.012 specific gravity, this will rupture some of the some of the Trophozoites on the fish.


In my opinion, for some people this may be overkill, but it WORKS.

Petsmart and Petco are useless as far as I know for carrying quick cure. I got mine at Wal-mart (I know, I know, but it's got a great high percentage of illegal-in-some-states carcinogens for a fantastic price. Cheap cheap cheap. And I've used it. And I like it. So no flames, I beg you.  ). Also you don't HAVE to use quick cure. Anything specific for protozoan parasites will work, I think.

IMO salt is only harmful if you're trying to use it to "buffer" your aquarium with it (newb mistake) which doesn't work. I add salt at the first sign of parasites. Ick in particular doesn't like it (I don't know a protozoan parasite that does). Here's an article reference:



> Can my fish handle salt? I wrote this article with African rift lake cichlids in mind, and I have successfully exposed my Malawi haps and clown loaches to a salt treatment without any problems. But these fish are accustomed to fairly hard water with a high pH. It is my understanding that species preferring soft water will not tolerate salt as well. If you keep soft water fish, please do your homework before proceeding with salt.


When you treated for ick if you didn't continue the treatment for 2 weeks it's very possible it wasn't cured. You probably know this but ick has three life stages. Only one of the life stages can be seen. The meds only work on two of the life stages (the one that's seeking out your fish as hosts like heat seeking missiles and the reproductive stage--the two stages invisible to the naked eye). If you only continued the treatment until the ick "cleared up", meaning you didn't see it anymore, it's possible that the adult trophonts which are the ones visible to the eye (and remember, not affected by the medication) fell off as is what they'll do and released more free swimming parasites. The adults fall off not because of the meds but because that's part of the life cycle. After they fall off they become tomonts, the reproductive stage, and they reproduce like crazy. The thermonts are released as a process of this reproductive stage and these swim around and attach to your fish and the cycle starts all over.

Anyway, long story short, it sounds like a relapse to me, but I'm not a hundred percent positive so maybe read the article, definitely test your water and make sure the levels are right, and adding a powerhead or something since they're panting couldn't hurt. I've found that the quick cure generally doesn't hurt anything either, but it will further deplete your oxygen, so again, powerhead or air stone or something. It's so easy to stop medicating when you see all the ick spots drop off, but remember, those will reproduce and it will start over again. The "ragged" fins can indicate several things, but almost always (again, in my experience) indicate a recurring round of ick, and paired with heavy breathing, flat dorsal fins, and reclusive behavior, seems to me like that's what you've got. Either that or another protozoan parasite, but the treatment is the same.


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## LVShootist (Dec 11, 2011)

Since I'm not sure that what I have is Ich (still no spots though) protozoan parasite or some type of bacterial infection....

I'm hoping to treat all of these. Nothing that I see treats them all in one package, what are your thoughts on mixing meds?

In a perfect world if I could use Methylene Blue -AND- Rid-Ich or QuickCure it might solve whichever issue I have.

Methylene Blue forÃ‚Â bacterial infections, nitrite or cyanide poisoning. (nitrite poisoning was an early concern)

Rid-Ich or QuickCure (Formalin and Malachite Green)Ã‚Â for Ich andÃ‚Â synergistic effect.

What if after all of this it turns out to be Flukes?

Ughhhh


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

the quick cure would be best just on its own. no point putting aditional mel blue in there when quick cure contains it.


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## LVShootist (Dec 11, 2011)

My understanding was that QuickCure contained Formalin and Malachite Green, not Methylene Blue.


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## riverpaws (Dec 7, 2011)

Yes you're right, quick cure is malachite green and formalin, but you should probably use the methylene blue too if you're going to use that IMO. I'm no expert by any means. I think combining meds occasionally is fine. I've done it before.

I think if it's gill flukes the parasite meds would take care of it, but I agree that it's frustrating not knowing. Makes everything really hard to treat.


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## LVShootist (Dec 11, 2011)

Went to Walmart and picked up some QuickCure this morning (only place around I could find it) and started the first treatment. Couldnt find Methylene Blue anywhere so ordered from Amazon.

Wish me luck, but of course if anybody has advise I would more than welcome it.

Cross your fingers......


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## LVShootist (Dec 11, 2011)

****....

This morning I did my treatment of QuickCure but not before taking water samples to be tested. Treated then used my masters kit to test. In hindsight I should have tested first but never had a problem before. Apparently the meds disrupted the cycle. My Ammonia is at .25, Nitrites are up to 2.0 - 5.0 (hard to tell on that chart) and Nitrates are 10 - 20.

Big WC then test again. Ughhhh


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## riverpaws (Dec 7, 2011)

LVShootist said:


> #%$&....
> 
> This morning I did my treatment of QuickCure but not before taking water samples to be tested. Treated then used my masters kit to test. In hindsight I should have tested first but never had a problem before. Apparently the meds disrupted the cycle. My Ammonia is at .25, Nitrites are up to 2.0 - 5.0 (hard to tell on that chart) and Nitrates are 10 - 20.
> 
> Big WC then test again. Ughhhh


Good luck, I hope it works for you. *crosses fingers* Keep us updated.


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