# Fishless Cycle - Ammonia Over 4PPM, Now What?



## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

New to fishless cycling here... and kinda feeling my way through it. I have been adding ammonia daily and we are now what seems to be between 4 & 8 PPM according to the brand new API test kit. So now what? At this point, our BioMedia, which has been on backorder, has not arrived so I'm running my FX5 with the foam side pads and floss in the top basket... bottom 2 are empty. That should be in any day now.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Wait, wait, then wait some more. You'll see ammonia drop, nitrite rise. When both are 0, you're cycled. So, for now, just test ammonia, when you see it dropping, start testing nitrite.
Mid to high 80's temp and plenty of aeration can help speed things along as will media from a cycled tank.


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## rgr4475 (Mar 19, 2008)

:thumb:


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## DrTim's (Jun 8, 2010)

Stop adding ammonia. You don't want it to go above 5 ppm. Wait until you have the biomedia and see nitrite production before adding more.

GTZ wrote


> You'll see ammonia drop, nitrite rise. When both are 0, you're cycled.


 He/She left out a detail - When you can add ammonia and do not see ammonia and nitrite the next day the tank is cycled. It is not really cycle, IMO, when ammonia and nitrite first hit zero.

You don't want to add too much ammonia and, as GTZ wrote, you need to wait. But once the ammonia and nitrite are low add a little ammonia and when you can add ammonia and not see a rise in the ammonia and nitrite values the next day your tank is on its way. When they are zero the next day you're cycled.


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

Appreciated! Got nuthin' but time... still need to figure out LED lighting and going out of town for 10 days the end of next week.

So when should I start testing for Nitrite? Looks like my BioMax & thermometer are showing up tomorrow and I should be able to get that in & fire the heater Sunday.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> So when should I start testing for Nitrite?


When ammonia drops.


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

Ok, haven't added any more ammonia. Just measured again today and we have over 8ppm. We finally rec'd the BioMax and have added it today. We also put in a thermometer so we are on our way to temps in the mid-upper 80s.

Do we need to do anything about the extra high NH3 or wait it out?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Do we need to do anything about the extra high NH3 or wait it out?


Yes, I'd do a 75% water change and stop adding until it goes to 0. There are some how-to's out there that say keep adding, I know, but don't.


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

prov356 said:


> > Do we need to do anything about the extra high NH3 or wait it out?
> 
> 
> Yes, I'd do a 75% water change and stop adding until it goes to 0. There are some how-to's out there that say keep adding, I know, but don't.


That crucial, huh? What would happen if we let it dissipate on its own?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Bacteria may be inhibited at high levels. I'd do at least a 50% anyway. Get it down to below 5ppm.


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

prov356 said:


> Bacteria may be inhibited at high levels. I'd do at least a 50% anyway. Get it down to below 5ppm.


We're going out of town for 10 days at the end of the week and won't have much time to do anything anyway. If we just left it, would we be ok eventually? The bio media just went in today.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Bacteria may be inhibited at high levels. I'd do at least a 50% anyway. Get it down to below 5ppm.


Meaning, it may not progress at all if you don't get the level of ammonia down. You can always deal with it when you get back. Seems you'll need to anyway if leaving it unattended for 10 days. Maybe best to just let it go and see what it does. Worst case, you'll still have a lot of ammonia when you get back and you can deal with it then. Best case, ammonia will be 0 and nitrites will be spiking and you can continue dosing ammonia at that time, just keep it to 2ppm.


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## 702Cichlid (Feb 28, 2010)

High ammonia levels will hinder the growth and proliferation of the bacteria that convert Nitrite into Nitrate, slowing down your cycle to a standstill. I'd recommend doing the water change and look for NH3/NH4 reading of 2-3ppm.


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## utahpeacock (Mar 14, 2011)

how big is the tank?


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

utahpeacock said:


> how big is the tank?


110 gals


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

Ok, came back from vaca and the ammonia levels were still over 8ppm. Did about 30-35% water change and checked it again... still over 8! I'll check it again tonight.


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## rgr4475 (Mar 19, 2008)

Did you test your PH? Simlar thing happened to me and my PH ended up being too low and inhibiting the bacteria growth


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

The PH was over the High PH test kit when measured just before vaca.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

You need to do a major water change of 75% or more. Your ammonia level is way too high.


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

Alright, did about a 75% water change last night. I have an API Freshwater kit. As the test water passes the medium dark green that's supposed to indicate ammonia of 4 ppm, it starts to turn more of a bluish green. 8 ppm is dark green. Does anyone else experience this? The hue doesn't quite get as dark as 8 ppm anymore so if I were to judge the level based on the hue, I would estimate 5 ppm, ma-aybe 6. Seems to get just darker than the 4 ppm indicator. So if my judgements are correct, is the level now low enough to let nature take over?


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## DrTim's (Jun 8, 2010)

Probably ok - don't add any more ammonia until you see it drop even further. Also monitor the nitrite you do not want that to go over 5 ppm either.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I'd agree, it's probably ok. So, if it's 5 now, it was 20ppm before the change.  No wonder things didn't progress.


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

Tested again tonight. Ammonia is still 5/6, Nitrite looks to be at least 5 and ph is 8. So I have an idea of how often I should be testing, at what rate can I expect progression to move along? Am I just waiting for ammonia & nitrite to reach 0 at this point? And to clarify... I'm done adding ammonia forever, correct?


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

I would test every other day. Yes you're waiting for ammonia and nitrite to both reach 0.
When that happens, you dose 1-2ppm ammonia. Test after 24 hours, if ammonia and nitrite are 0, you're cycled, if not, try again once ammonia and nitrite are once again 0.
The point is to have 1-2ppm ammonia processed by the bacteria, resulting in 0ppm ammonia and nitrite after 24 hours.


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## DrTim's (Jun 8, 2010)

You are not done adding ammonia forever As GTZ says - wait until no ammonia and at least a big drop in nitrite say down to 1 or so. Then add ammonia at 1 to 2 ppm - if no ammonia and no nitrite after 24 hours - now you're done. Except now you need to add some fish.

How often to test? every 2 -3 days


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

My ammonia is now .25ppm but nitrite is still up around 4/5. Am I still on track here? When should I start seeing drops in nitrite? I'm assuming it should be a little while before I see any real nitrate readings, correct?


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## ZeNozzle (Feb 28, 2011)

sounds like your ammonia eating colony is good but your nitrite eating colony is not. Keep in mind there may be more than 5 ppm of nitrite in your tank if thats where the test kit stops measuring. Mine had somehow gotten up to roughly 10 ppm when cycling and was inhibiting good bacteria growth.

I would do a quick 25% water change just to make sure the Nitrites are only around 5ppm and if they are not do a slightly larger water change to bring them in line then add a very small dose of ammonia just to ensure that your ammonia eating colony doesn't starve.


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## xxbenjamminxx (Jan 22, 2011)

Yeah it will take a little bit yet but as others said make sure to keep adding ammonia to around 2ppm every couple days to keep the bacteria fed or you will be starting over if you from square one if you dont.

From what I read alot of people say to dose the ammonia every other or every 3 days.


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

Ok. Where does the nitrite come from?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

WaWaZat said:


> Ok. Where does the nitrite come from?


It comes from the nitrifying bacteria. There's a bacteria that converts ammonia to nirite. Then another that converts nitrite to nitrate. That's what you're trying to get established.


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

Wow... nitrite finally & suddenly dropped to 0! Added 2ppm ammonia tonight and we'll test again tomorrow. Have feeling we'll be ready for fish tomorrow... ammonia has been coming right down for the last week or so.

Only prob is, we haven't had a chance to get lights for the aquarium top. Not sure if it's ok to start fish with just the the sunlight through the window at the opposite end of the room until we figure out the LED lighting we're planning.


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## rgr4475 (Mar 19, 2008)

The lights are for you. The fish are fine without them.


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## adam0444 (Apr 16, 2011)

This info helped me too. Thanks Picking up some ammonia tomorrow


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

adam0444 said:


> This info helped me too. Thanks Picking up some ammonia tomorrow


 Great! Make sure you get ammonia with no other additives... Ace Hardware was only brand I found that fit this bill.


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

So we brought our ammonia up, after everything dropped to 0, to 2ppm yesterday and checked it today. We're only down to .25ppm, not 0. Do we still have some waiting to do?

Nitrite is 0 and nitrate is reading at the very bottom of the chart.

Also, our PH is 6.8. The Oscars, Clown Knife, plecos, etc, we plan on stocking require 7. Are we close enough for rock & roll or do we need to bring it up a bit? How is PH best brought up?


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

Maybe we're just reading the results wrong... it's a little hard to decipher whether it's reading closer to the yellow 0ppm or the greenish-yellow .25. We'll just add 2ppm ammonia & test every other day until we're ready to pick our fish. We do still have that little skin-like white stuff, created by adding ammonia, on the top of the tank. Is this a concern at all when adding fish? And just before adding fish, should we do any sort of water change for any reason?

I still would like to hear how critical it is to raise our ph from 6.8 to 7 for Oscars, etc. And also, what is the best way to raise ph?


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## adam0444 (Apr 16, 2011)

From 6.8 to 7 will make no difference to your fish. As long as you ph is at a stable 6.8 your fish will be fine


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

I have sort of felt my way through, with everyone's help here, the fishless cycle process without fully understanding what I was doing. Being a little unsure that I am cycled & ready for fish, I searched and found another article on this topic that I've just read through. It mentions that while waiting for nitrite to fall, NH3 should be added to maintain a reading from 3-5 ppm. After accidentally spiking my NH3 to at least 20 ppm, because of an expired test kit, doing a couple water changes to get it down to around 6, I didn't pay much attention to maintaining NH3 levels. At that point, I was only waiting for the NO2 to come down, which after some time, came down to 0. At that time, my NH3 had been 0 for a while. Right now if I raise the NH3 levels to 2, in 24 hrs, it comes down to about 0. Does this alone mean I'm cycled for sure or are there other considerations? If not, how can I tell for sure? Is the only reason for maintaining the NH3 levels while waiting for NO2 to drop to keep the NH3 eating colony from dying?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Is the only reason for maintaining the NH3 levels while waiting for NO2 to drop to keep the NH3 eating colony from dying?


Yes, but the 3-5ppm is too much. Many articles out there recommend too much ammonia.



> Right now if I raise the NH3 levels to 2, in 24 hrs, it comes down to about 0. Does this alone mean I'm cycled for sure or are there other considerations?


The other consderation is nitrite. Ammonia alone at 0 doesn't mean 'cycled'. Both ammonia and nitrite need to be 0 after 24 hours.

If you dose ammonia at 1-2ppm, and in 24 hours ammonnia and nitrite are 0, then you are considered cycled. This is just a way to gauge if you've got enough bacteria built up to handle the ammonia load of the fish. That's all. There are two types of bacteria that need to be built up. One converts ammonia to nitrite, the other nitrite to nitrate. You need both in sufficient numbers. You can see that having the ammonia converters alone will allow toxic nitrite to build to lethal levels. Once the ammonia converters start converting ammonia to nitrite, then the nitrite converters have something to feed on and they start building. It's a two part process. Once the second part is done, you're done. We do the third part, removing nitrates, through water changes typically.


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

prov356 said:


> If you dose ammonia at 1-2ppm, and in 24 hours ammonnia and nitrite are 0, then you are considered cycled.


It's been about a week since my nitrite came down, after staying steady at the top of the test kit scale, after bringing my ammonia levels down from at least 20 ppm w/big water changes. During this week, when I dose with 2 ppm ammonia, the nitrites stay 0. It takes a full 24 hrs for the ammonia to come down to 0... seems to linger at .25 ppm for a while before hitting 0. Should I be seeing nitrite levels raise at all with these ammonia doses? Maybe I'm not testing for nitrite at the right time to see a reading. So far I have only measured right after dosing ammonia and when the ammonia levels have come down to .25 or 0. Or, perhaps in order to see a raise in nitrite, I would need to do higher ammonia doses.



> We do the third part, removing nitrates, through water changes typically.


My nitrates remain at the low end of the scale. Should I be seeing a raise with all the above activity?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I think you're over analyzing a bit. Dose, then wait 24 hours and test. Don't worry about how long it takes for ammonia to reach 0. It's not meaningful. From what you're reporting, you've been cycled since the 22nd. That's when nitrite tested 0.

The only thing to check with nitrates is that they're not too high. Don't try to calculate how much they should be now.

Add your last dose of ammonia 2-3 days before adding fish. That's all that's left for you to do. If it's going to be a bit before adding fish, dose every 2-3 days until then. Just do water changes during this time to keep nitrates down.

Congrats and post up those pics when fish are in. :thumb:


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

prov356 said:


> I think you're over analyzing a bit.


Yes and my brain hurts as a result!  I appreciate the extra hand holding.

Please satisfy 1 more worry... so no need to do a water change just before adding fish? I still have that skin-like white stuff floating on the surface that comes from adding ammonia.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

You only need to do a water change if nitrates are elevated. You shouldn't have a white surface film from ammonia. It may be some type of biofilm. May be just a matter of getting more surface aggitation, but not typically harmful.


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## cdavitt (Apr 4, 2011)

I would skim the surface and change enough water to get rid of the film. It sounds like you are cycled but that white film is from using ammonia that has additives, surfactant, or dyes.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

What ammonia did you use, WaWaZat?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

cdavitt said:


> I would skim the surface and change enough water to get rid of the film. It sounds like you are cycled but that white film is from using ammonia that has additives, surfactant, or dyes.


White films aren't always from this. And certainly never from dyes. If he's used the wrong ammoina, then more needs to be done than skimming the surface.


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

The Ace Hardware branded stuff. I've seen others here have used it. It doesn't list ingredients on the bottle but I called the manufacturer to confirm that there are no other additives.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Then you're fine. The surface film is not from the ammonia. It's a biofilm. Very common. Does your ammonia look like this?


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

prov356 said:


> Does your ammonia look like this?


Exactly like that... thx!


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

The line "Contains 10% ammonium hydroxide" is your ingredients list.


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## cdavitt (Apr 4, 2011)

Thanks for confirming. I apologize for the misdiagnosis!


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

Ok, picked up 3 juvy Juruparis 4 days ago. The other night, one passed. He had been isolating himself from the other 2 and not eating. This afternoon, a 2nd suddenly went belly up. He seemed fine this morning and along with the other, was very active. Just checked ammonia (.25 ppm) & nitrite (2 ppm). We're doing a 50% water change as I type. What's going on here?!


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

Jurupari #3 wasn't looking so hot while doing the water change and 2 hrs later, he's kaput too! How do I figure out what's wrong?


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## PortiaD (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm so sorry to hear that WaWaZat, how frusterated you must feel! Between cycling the tank and getting the fish did you continue adding ammonia every 2 to 3 days?

From what little I know, I believe your nitrites and ammonia should both be at 0


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

Yeah, added ammonia in the interim.

The really frustrating thing is that now after the 50% water change, the ammonia is still about .25 and the nitrites have seemed to climb. It's a little difficult to read this API kit sometimes but I think we've gone from 2 ppm before the change to 5 or off the scale. What gives?! I have some long bushy algae growing on a vertical piece of driftwood near the canister outlet which we removed some of during while vacuuming. Could this have something to do with nitrites?

PH was 8 before the water change.


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## PortiaD (Mar 7, 2011)

Basically a properly cycled tank has one form of bacteria that converts ammonia (highly toxic) to nitrites (slightly less toxic) and another bacteria which converts nitrites into nitrates (moderately less toxic). We then do water changes to suck out the nitrates. So it could be a result of your nitrites & ammonia or it could be a result of something else entirely.

Are you using a water conditioner to treat your tap water for chlorine, and chloramine?


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

PortiaD said:


> Are you using a water conditioner to treat your tap water for chlorine, and chloramine?


Yep, used a water conditioner while refilling from the tap. Could a water conditioner have an affect on nitrites... perhaps if too much is used?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

WaWaZat said:


> Ok, picked up 3 juvy Juruparis 4 days ago. The other night, one passed. He had been isolating himself from the other 2 and not eating. This afternoon, a 2nd suddenly went belly up. He seemed fine this morning and along with the other, was very active. Just checked ammonia (.25 ppm) & nitrite (2 ppm). We're doing a 50% water change as I type. What's going on here?!


Did you continue to dose ammonia between fully cycled and the addition of fish?

Did you change anything or clean fliters?


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

prov356 said:


> WaWaZat said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, picked up 3 juvy Juruparis 4 days ago. The other night, one passed. He had been isolating himself from the other 2 and not eating. This afternoon, a 2nd suddenly went belly up. He seemed fine this morning and along with the other, was very active. Just checked ammonia (.25 ppm) & nitrite (2 ppm). We're doing a 50% water change as I type. What's going on here?!
> ...


Since I knew that a tablespoon of ammonia would get me to 2 ppm, by default, I would add a dose every 2-3 days. Nothing else was changed and I haven't even opened up the canister lately. As far as the nitrite spike after the water change, the only thing we did, besides stirring up the sand while vacuuming and scraping the bushy algae off the driftwood was add water conditioner. I realized after that we had mistakenly added twice the dose.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Yep, used a water conditioner while refilling from the tap. Could a water conditioner have an affect on nitrites... perhaps if too much is used?


No



> Nothing else was changed and I haven't even opened up the canister lately.


So, when exactly was it opened?

I would leave everything alone for a couple of months. Water changes only. In a tank this new, there shouldn't be a need for stirring up sand, etc. Ignore the algae on the driftwood for now. Hopefully these spikes will be brief. Something that was done obviously disrupted the bacteria that you had built up.


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## PortiaD (Mar 7, 2011)

I think some water conditioners will give a false positive reading on ammonia and/or nitrites...was this your first water change after adding fish?


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

> Nothing else was changed and I haven't even opened up the canister lately.





> So, when exactly was it opened?


About 3 weeks before fish to top off one of the 2 bio media trays in the FX5... needed to order an additional box to fill both trays completely.



> I would leave everything alone for a couple of months. Water changes only. In a tank this new, there shouldn't be a need for stirring up sand, etc. Ignore the algae on the driftwood for now. Hopefully these spikes will be brief. Something that was done obviously disrupted the bacteria that you had built up.


Clarification... we didn't purposely stir the sand, just gave it a complete vacuum so a little sand was stirred.

Should I add ammonia during this time? HOw often and how much on the water changes?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Should I add ammonia during this time? HOw often and how much on the water changes?


Seems you've lost all fish, so none in the tank now? If not, then wait until ammonia/nitrite zero out again, then add a dose and test to see if it's gone after 24 hours. Then I think I'd retry, but with inexpensive fish.


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

prov356 said:


> > Should I add ammonia during this time? HOw often and how much on the water changes?
> 
> 
> Seems you've lost all fish, so none in the tank now? If not, then wait until ammonia/nitrite zero out again, then add a dose and test to see if it's gone after 24 hours. Then I think I'd retry, but with inexpensive fish.


Yeah, lost all 3. Good thing the Jurus were only $7 a pop. I'm headed out of town for 10 days again next week. I'll watch it before I go to see what happens, but not much I can do for the 10 days I'm gone. Hopefully I won't have to start completely over when I get back.


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

Ok, was out of town for a while now back on this. It's been about 3 weeks since losing all the fish. Checked ammonia & nitrite after coming back and they were about 0. Added ammonia to 4ppm and 24 hrs later, it was about 0 (not sure if it's this test kit but the lowest reading we seem to get looks more like .25ppm). However, the nitrites went through the roof and 3 days later are still up there. So what now? A water change perhaps... but should I restart ammonia doses or leave it alone?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Too much ammonia. 4ppm isn't necessary. Add 1-2ppm every 3 days. You can do some water changes to keep nitrites in check, but keep the changes to about 30% or so. Don't get so overly worried about nitrites at this point that you're doing massive water changes. If you keep the ammonia doese low, you won't have to. When nitrites go to 0, you're done.


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## Pizzle (May 24, 2011)

The lowest my API test kit will register for Ammonia is also .25ppm. I'm sure I'm cycled because my fish are doing well. It is my first test kit so I don't know if they are all like that. I had previously been flying blind but needed a test kit when doing my first fishless cycle a couple months ago.


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## Pizzle (May 24, 2011)

Did you test your Nitrate level when the Juraparis were dieing off? Or maybe they were just weak fish. One tip for you while doing a fishless cycle is to black-out all lighting from going into the tank while cycling by using a heavy blanket. Algea needs light to grow but the bacteria that you are trying to nurture does not require any light to survive.


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

Maybe I should put some inexpensive starter fish in this time when everything zeros. Any recommendations on something hardy?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

You don't want to go too cheap or you can get fish in poor condition and it's not a true test. Then you've got the problem also of what to do with these fish after. Sometimes local shops have sales on certain fish, but stay away from any shops with a central filtration system. And keep in mind that if you add a few small fish and leave them there for a few weeks, then you'll have to stock slowly and lose one of the benefits of fishless cycling. And even if the fish you get are in decent shape, you may lose one, and then get paranoid and wonder if it was the fish or something still going on in the tank. It's a tough call, just tossing out what's in my head. I keep some danios around in a 10 gallon for this kind of stuff. When done with them, you can use them to keep spare tanks cycled, etc. Put something in the big tank while cycling a 10 for them when you're done with that maybe.


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

prov356 said:


> I would leave everything alone for a couple of months. Water changes only. In a tank this new, there shouldn't be a need for stirring up sand, etc. Ignore the algae on the driftwood for now. Hopefully these spikes will be brief. Something that was done obviously disrupted the bacteria that you had built up.


Alright, I've left everything alone for a couple months... did a few water changes and added ammonia periodically but not regularly. Was talking to the owner of a LPS a few weeks ago and he insisted that I pick up some inexpensive fish to cycle with. Happened to be in Petco yesterday and the girl didn't want to sell me anything except for feeder goldfish or cycling chemicals.

What does everyone recommend I do at this point? If putting some fish in there is the answer, can I get some recommendations on what commonly found, inexpensive fish will be the hardiest?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

No fish do well with ammonia. There are no 'hardy' fish to cycle with. That's a myth that just makes people feel better about cycling with fish.


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## WaWaZat (Dec 27, 2007)

prov356 said:


> No fish do well with ammonia. There are no 'hardy' fish to cycle with. That's a myth that just makes people feel better about cycling with fish.


I'd have to say that makes a lot of sense but I'm really amazed at how every single LSP owner or employee looks at me like I'm nuts when I mention cycling with ammonia.

But with my bad experience with the 1st attempt, I'm open to all advise. Are the products sold to instantly cycle tanks effective? Or should I go back to the ammonia doses but with a better understanding this time?? Hoping for some good advise on what to do now.

At this point, everything is 0 and I'm not even sure what stage I'm at.


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## dillon0990 (Jun 11, 2011)

If you want to know if there is stuff that truly "instantly" cycles a tank the answer is no, but there are some good products that definitely help in the process. I set my tank up about 3 weeks ago. I went to my lfs and they suggested Start smart by a company called TLC. I added it with 6 tiger barbs. I also had a bad experience with ammonia but only because i bought the wrong stuff. I know its not right to get impatient but i cant help myself so i used the instant stuff. When i added the start smart my ammonia was .5 i believe. Within 24 hours the ammonia was gone and within 48 ammonia was 0 nitrites 0 and nitrates 10-20. Everything was right where i wanted it. Its now three weeks later and a few water changes later and i never had an ammonia spike or nitrite spike. I even was feeding heavily trying to see if ammonia would go up but never did Im actually finally getting my fish in the mail tomorrow and im so excited! I guess the true test will come when i get the tank all stocked tomorrow. Im hoping all is well when fully stocked because losing fish is never fun and cost too much lol.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Or should I go back to the ammonia doses but with a better understanding this time??


That would be my advice.


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