# Bigger Tank Mates for Bolivian Rams



## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

I am wondering what you could put in with Bolivian rams, That are Bigger than them in a 46 gallon tank any suggestions


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

With your current group of Bolivian rams, your already well stocked. Anything else apart from dithers would be overstocking.

You really don't want larger fish in such a small tank anyway.


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## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

Well if i were to bend the rules what "COULD" go in the tank with the ram's, i was told some angle fish or a pair of firemouths... all i have in my tank right now are the 6 rams/


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## Cook.MN (Mar 11, 2008)

I have a large school of Rummynose tetras with my Blue Rams and the color is amazing in the tank.


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## briansbelle (May 24, 2008)

i would add a nice group of 6-10 celebes rainbows.
i just got a group of 6 to add to my planted tank,and they are awesome! the males flare up and their fins almost seem to light up...

HTH!


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## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

Again, i come here thinking i might find an answer i was looking for and no i dont. i am not trying to be rude but i asked for bigger tank mates not rainbow fish or what ever. I had 12 rummynose tetra's in it before they gave everything in my tach ich. so no no more small fish i want some big fish thanks anways


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## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

the cookie cutter says i can have a pair of 7 inch fish in my tank. with tetras and catfish and bristlenoses well why cant i have a pair in with my rams? and thats it?


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## briansbelle (May 24, 2008)

IMO a 7 inch fish is too big and will probably kill your rams, plus rams should be a centerpeice fish...so i would get some smaller fish and have a school of smaller fish and the rams, but this is just my opinion...

its your tank, your world, you can do whatever you want. alot of us learn what to do by trial and error...

HTH!


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## Cook.MN (Mar 11, 2008)

Newbreed said:


> the cookie cutter says i can have a pair of 7 inch fish in my tank. with tetras and catfish and bristlenoses well why cant i have a pair in with my rams? and thats it?


Which cookie cutter are you looking at?

From your other threads I know that you have a 46 Gallon Bowfront tank. For cichlids you have to look at the footprint of the tank rather then the straight Gallon-amount.

Under the cookie cutter section you want to look at the 20 Gallon Long setups and 29 Gallon Setups as the max length of your tank is 36 inches I believe for the 46BF . Yes that extra foot on the 48 inch cookie cutter setups does matter.


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## klumsyninja (Aug 14, 2008)

What's your total stock in the tank right?


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Newbreed said:


> Again, i come here thinking i might find an answer i was looking for and no i dont. i am not trying to be rude but i asked for bigger tank mates not rainbow fish or what ever. I had 12 rummynose tetra's in it before they gave everything in my tach ich. so no no more small fish i want some big fish thanks anways


Dude seriously, you don't listen very well do you. You had everything explained to you when first set up the the 20 gallon tank and then this tank. You're not going to find the answer you're looking for becuase it doesn't exist.

It's unfortunate that the rummynose introduced ich into your tank. But ich is quite often symptomatic of something else wrong with your tank and fish. Healthy fish usually are able to fight off an ich outbreak. It is the stressed and unhealthy fish that succumb to ich.

What you have to understand is that fish need territories. If you put a pair of larger fish in your small tank, there won't be any territories for other fish. It's *either* one pair of say something like Blue acaras or 3 pairs of Bolivian rams. You *can not* have both, as anything larger is going to either outright kill the rams, or cause them so much stress that they die of something like ich.

If you want, add a pair of Angelfish your tank. But first sell the six rams. Then if your lucky you have a 33% chance of actually picking a male and female to start with. But that doesn't mean they will get along. More likely they won't and one will kill the other. Yes Angelfish can be very mean with other Angelfish. That's how many cichlids are with others of thier own kind.


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## briansbelle (May 24, 2008)

honestly,i have read your other posts and you always ask for advice and then give reasons why "it" is ok..if you think it is ok then do whatever you want, stop asking for advice....and then when something happens to all the fish in the tank, whether they die, get killed or whatever you will have no one to blame but yourself. like i said in my post, its your tank, add whatever you want...we all learn from trial and error...so give it a try but dont be surprised if you have problems down the road...

HTH!! :thumb:


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## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

You guys are right, and i am wrong. i am going to just let the 6 rams i have stay in the tank alone by them selves i just dont care any more i wanted a beautiful tank that would work and i got ich with my tetra's and lost 50$ in fish.

i found that my filter canister had no bio modules in it well they were there but worn away. so i changed that and did a heat treatment and my fish are fine now.

My tank was cool and i was happy with my set up that i stocked with the tetras and rasboras but of course nothing goes right for me.. even after having the rams this long i found out i have 5 females and 1 deformed sunken belly fish that manages to stay alive looks like its male and i never see eat... He has been in the tank ever since i have gotten the rest of them. In all honesty i dont know if i have 4 females and 2 males or 5 females and 1 male. i know i have 3 fish with swollen vents and one that looks like a female but isnt as swollen and then another fish that doesnt even look like it has a sexual organ and thats the sunken belly deformed looking one.

My tank looks empty to me and i dint want to add any more small fish and get ich again or some kind of other screwed up disease and ruin my tank again.

I think this hobby just isnt for me.


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## HONDO (May 4, 2008)

dont say that. i think you just live and learn and when it works out for you, you will be that much happier. you can always trade some of your females for males. also, to prevent ich, try setting up a small quarantine tank for new fish or buy from a place you trust to have clean tanks etc.

i think if you need a break, that is understandable. it always sucks to fail, but use it and learn from it and you will be happy you did.

i hope that helps you.


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## illy-d (Nov 6, 2005)

I think a pair of Keyholes (or 2 'single' keyholes) could share a 46 bowfront with a pair of Bolivian Rams... But there is a trade off: sure you'll get more diversity of cichlids with the 2 pair, but you'll lose some the personality you would get with a 6 pack of Bolivians.

I wouldn't do Firemouths as they will compete directly with the Rams in just about every way -and they would probably win 99% of the time.


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## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

Its just hard when u see your tank something u worked so hard on spent so much money on trying to make it nicest as possible for me. But also making it a great home for the rams and other fish. but i just ended up killing fish and losing money.

I now have the 6 rams and 2 bushynose pleco's and im starting to grow light green algae... when before it was only brown algae.

I want to have more fish in the tank because every time i look at it. it seems empty except for the 2 or 3 rams who are always at the front of the dam tank like hey hey im over here hey look at me swimming back and forth like come please play with me.

I have Divided 8-10 different spots in the tank all about 5 inch's to 10 inch's wide and have dug out pits and taken out some of the fake plants to make more swimming room in the tank. and have raised the temp as to eradicate all ich in the tank. It seems to have worked and in a day or 2 more as my rams don't seem to be suffering and neither do the pleco's i will turn the heat back down to i dont know 80?

I need drift wood for my tank but dont have the money for it.

my water is

0.5 nitrate
0 nitrite
0 ammonia 
300+ GH or around there
between 80-120 KH
PH is 7.2-7.8
id say 7.4 i'm using those cheap strips with the 5 test's

Now because i have bad luck with small fish. And my rams seem to be doing well doing well what ever it is the heck they do and annoy me by not doing anything other than sit at the front of the tank and occasionally chase another one off for a half a second. I was thinking Bigger fish. BUT since i have a TINY tank being 46 gallons and i have 6 fish in it already and i dont know where to find male rams or even if i have male rams i am so confused. Here is one picture of ONE of my fish. i think HE/IT/SHE ALIEN? what ever it is might be a male.

I know my pictures suck  but maybe from them u can tell me what i have.

The Male????








Female?








Same fish? lol?









Should i do anything? or should i just leave the tank as is.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Newbreed,.....I seen some posts but I didn't had the time to read them properly and respond to it. I think this is the moment to jump in and make you think abouth things.

Your new into fish keeping don't you? If so rummy nose was a poor choice. Those are one of the most delicate and sensitive tetras around and defenately not a beginners fish. Ich is a common illnes and often easy to treat. Ich also indicates the fish have a poor health and went through a large temperature change. Every fish can get ich from small to large so I don't see why you could not buy new tetras for example. Larger fish in a tank that size can be done but you already have a nice group of Bolivians so my advice is to stick to a nice school of smaler fish. Bolivians display funny and active social behaviour but one need to observe to detect it. From your pics it looks like a nice tank to me. If you want to add (easier) smaler fish I advice to keep away from the rummynose, neons and cardinals. A better choice would be penguin fish, head and tail light, red eye moenkhousia, black skirts or corydoras. Dwarf cories like the Pygmea act like tetras and are defenately something diferent.

In all honesty I don't think there is a problem with your tank but you may have to high expectations. Its all abouth a balance between scape, animals, filtration, biological balance, plants and so on. A lot of things you can change but it is impossible to perfect control it. Bad things like illnesses WIL happen sooner or later. You will buy fish that are week and you will make stupid mistakes. It is all a learning process and for that you need to gather A LOT of info and read read read. If you don't see fishkeeping as a challenge and you simply want a perfect tank were nothing bad will happen and everything goes perfect, then you probably have chosen the wrong hobby. If you are willing to learn and put in a lot of effort and be open to advice then you can have a nice tank with nice fish and something good to look at and to work on but don't ever expect things will be perfect becouse that won't happen.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Ooh and by the way,...why are you posting pics of 2004??? Doesn't make sense to me.


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## under_control (Jan 9, 2008)

Dutch Dude said:


> Ooh and by the way,...why are you posting pics of 2004??? Doesn't make sense to me.


I imagine the OP's camera just got new batteries!


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

> I imagine the OP's camera just got new batteries!


 didn't thought of that


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## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

I plan on adding 25 lbs of drift wood to my tank and adding a few more larger Geo's I talked to my local fish store guy he has a 118 gallon tank with about 30 geo's in the tank they are all beautiful and get along well he has told me how to set up my tank and how much drift wood to add and he told me i could add a few more geo's

I brought home 2 more last night and they love absolutly love my tank and they seem to love my rams as well. i get little nippy battles but nothing big. the big things happen only between the 2 geo's

I plan on getting 4 more and having 6 geo's and 6 ram's as it will take quite a long time for them to reach full grown i plan to upgrade before then.,


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## illy-d (Nov 6, 2005)

What type of Geo?

I ask because many Geos get to be 12"

Remember this: Even if you don't like the advice that I or other members here give you - we don't have a stake in selling you fish.

A fish store owner will sell any fish to any buyer regardless of tank because it is in his/her best interest to do so.

If you hated wasting money on Tetras I imagine you will dislike it just as much wasting it on Geos.

I really don't care what you do with your tank or what fish you put in it - but if you're looking at getting into this hobby on a budget you should start listening to the people here and stop listening to the person who is taking your money.

Good luck with everything.


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## klumsyninja (Aug 14, 2008)

Geo's are really sensitive fish, so be careful.. :fish:


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

I agree with everything *illy-d* said.

To add to that. Depending on the species of geo, they are going to grow anywhere from 6 inches to 12 inches TL. Again they are species that do better in conspecific groups of 5 or more. I would never keep any geos in a tank smaller than a 4 foot, 75 gallon tank.

Please go take a photo of your LFS 118 gallon tank with 30 geos in it. Unless they are juveniles growing out, that is way over stocking.



> A fish store owner will sell any fish to any buyer regardless of tank because it is in his/her best interest to do so.


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## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

They are all Juvies growing out. but he does have lots of driftwood in the tank.

The ones i have gotten only get to about 6 inch's max. and he in no way shape or form tried to sell me fish. He mearly told me how they live and showed me his tank.

He told me rams are not really apisto's at all but are more of the geo family. they just give them a good name to sell.

He has never steered me wrong and is an awesome guy reminds me of my dad.

The ones that i have gotten are maybe 3 inchs max and are the same size as my rams currently so they are bullying each other around my big male ram has colored up so much and has taken control of the tank.

I only plan on growing out some juvies in my 46 gallon once i ad more driftwood. The ones that i have gotten are supposably rare he has the largest geo supply in all of san diego and they are all tank raised. All of them. He told me throw the smallest guys u can find in with your rams they will grow up with them and learn their place in your tank as long as u have healthy rams and so far everything is going well..

Even my drag sunken belly deformed looking male ram comes out to play now and doesnt just hide


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Who said rams are apisto's? It should be pretty obvious from there genus name, Mikrogeophagus, that they are related to geophagus species.

Please find out what species of geo you bought and let us know. The only rarer species that I know of all grow rather large. The smaller species are fairly common.

Does your LFS owner know what size tank you have? You're small tank may be fine to grow out some juvenile geos, but you can not keep even one of the smaller species in there once they reach adult size.

You asked here if you could keep a pair of 6 inch fish in your set up, and everyone replied NO and tried to explain why. Yet your LFS owner happily sold you a couple of geos for your set up, that should tell you a little something.


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## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

They are yellowish with one bblack spot in the middle and a stripe down their eye like the rams,

i would tend to agree with you. but he has a very overstocked african cichlid tank that is just pumping out babies right now he had to clean out tanks of fish just to raise babies if i hadent seen all the babies he is currently raising and how the tanks are well mannored and taken care of then id agree with him just selling me fish. but his tanks look awesome and his baby fish are all alive ever last one of them and he had one tank of them when i went in first and now he has 7 tanks of babies all in a matter of 2 weeks


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## Hubbynz (May 10, 2008)

Just a quick question newbreed....I don't mean to be rude but how old are you?


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## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

im 26, but i will admit i have problems so please do not get angry at me..

in all honesty i am probably bi polar, but i have never had any medications or diagnosis. i am also stubborn i will admit that.

Its just hard to see such a big tank with only 6 fish it makes me feel like i chose the wrong fish.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Keeping african cichlids is very different to keeping South American cichlids.

And many african cichlids are like rabbits. Just add fish to water and rocks and they breed.

Many african tanks are over stocked to spread aggression among many individuals. If they weren't overstocked, one or two fish would become targets of all the others and eventually be harrased to death. And then the next weakest cichlid in the tank would become the new target. Overstocking means, it's very hard for one or two fish to become constant victims.

Overstocking SA or CA tanks has a different result. It becomes survival of the fittest. The weakest fish is constantly harrassed until it dies, and then the next weakest becomes the new victim. This keeps going untill the dominant cichlids reach a stocking level they are happy with.

This will even happen in your tank. If the geos reach adulthood, they will find the tank too small, especially if they become a mated pair.

Your description could be any one of a number of possible eartheaters, icluding biotodoma, gymnogeophagus, or brasiliensis complex. Mate, you better find out exactly which species you have as they all don't have the same needs. Simply phone your LFS and ask please.


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## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

Correction...

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... php?id=468 that is the fish i have


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

A very nice geophagus. As adults they'll still need a larger tank.

Good luck with the hobby *Newbreed*.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Oooh boy,....I can assure you that you will complain a lot in say 8 months from now. If you don't know if fish can be mixed or will be suitable for the tank why don't you ask first? You see something and you want something. Your indeed stubborn but thats not the biggest issue,....you ignore all the great advice from all the more experienced people on this board,....why? We have no commercial interest and are doing or very best to help you but thats a very hard job if you ignore it and do what you want to do regardless of the given advice or more important,...the health of your fish!



> He has never steered me wrong and is an awesome guy


 well he did now for sure! But hey,....we can say that but unfortunately you ignore it. Why??? Realy this isn't gonna work!


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## under_control (Jan 9, 2008)

If you are going to take the advice of someone who is going to make money off of it over people who will neither lose money nor sleep over giving you sound advice, so be it.

Your tank has the potential to be of great enjoyment.... OR.... you could sink money in it and wait for it to all come crashing down. It has become apparent that you would rather have instant satisfaction and are not too concerned about long term.

African cichlid tanks are intentionally overstocked to reduce aggression. This does not work with the much larger SA/CA species we deal with or even the smaller. Fish like Bolivians need defined territories, where giving a territory to an african would cause bloodshed.

My LFS has a tank full of feeder goldfish that litterally has several thousand fish in it. Does this mean I should stock 40 oscars in my 180?

I know YOU have an idea for what you WANTED from this tank, but.... you have to see what can ACTUALLY work in your tank LONG TERM.


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## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

Well hey it was nice comming to this forum looking for advice and just be cause i didnt follow everything exactly i am the scum of the earth. LoL thats fine i hope i fish kills another and kills another till all there is left is one fish MUAHAHAHA


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## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

by the way i picked the fish out my self not him, and if u read what i actually wrote i plan on upgrading later on to a larger 100 gallon + tank


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## Cook.MN (Mar 11, 2008)

IMO you should just stop posting threads asking for advice as in every-single-one you never follow it, usually end up insulting someone and go ahead and put whatever fish you want in the tank anyways. Seems counter productive to even make a thread.


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## Newbreed (Feb 23, 2009)

oh dont worry i dont plan on asking for advice anymore


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## illy-d (Nov 6, 2005)

It's a shame Newbreed - I for one never meant to insult you or drive you away from the forum... I've been frustrated with the hobby at times and sinking money into it without being rewarded is a sure way to drive anybody to reconsider getting into fishkeeping.

You can & will do whatever you want and I'm okay with that - I almost wish I lived closer to you so I could buy your set-up off you for cheap in about a years time when your tank crashes and you realize you wasted hundreds of dollars on a hobby that brought you nothing but headaches.

It's ironic that the easiest way to save money in this hobby is also the hardest thing to do - it's kind of a cruel joke. It's called being patient & doing research. I for one really struggle with it when I'm setting up a tank... Over the years though I've learned to fight the urge to achieve instant success and plan for the future - but it's taken a lot of my time and money to get to this point and I was just trying to give you the benefit of learning from my mistakes... That's easier said than done though. So in all honesty I hope things work out for you.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Such a shame people try to help out someone that complains, ask for help but knows it all in the end and is able to stock a guppy with a piranha and still wondering why the guppy get eaten. Such a waste of time!


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## DiscusQueen (Jul 16, 2007)

Hi there... 
Everyone has tried to help by giving you advise based on many years of combined experience.. not to try and sell something to make a profit, not to prove anyone wrong or make themselves seem important... These are caring fish keepers.. You have responded by showing you want to be a "fish haver" rather than a "fishkeeper". I feel sorry that you are unable to accept that this hobby takes patience and is one that evolves rather than being instant gratification. But I feel sorrier for your fish as they will surely suffer from your lack of understanding and commitment to the care they need. You put your wants and desires above their needs.. Go somewhere and see these fish as adults before you buy them and you will realize the task you are undertaking and the conditions you will be subjecting them to.
Often in designing a tank we get hungup in what we want out of the tank and how we aesthetically want it to look rather than providing what is most important... conditions right for the fish.. Sad but true.. Hopefully as you continue on your fish having journey you will come to see what we are telling you is in yours and the fishes interests before it is to late for them.. Good luck with your tank... Sue


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