# Did I get ripped off?



## Little Phishy (Dec 13, 2007)

I am building a wet/dry filter out of an old 55 gallon aquarium that I have, and the section that I'm using for the bio balls was approx 19 gallons in volume so I purchased what I thought was going to be 20 gallons of bio balls (this link is the winning auction...) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0212398414

When I received my box of bio balls and dumped them into the 19gallon section of the sump, I was quite disappointed to see that it only filled up approx 2/3 of the area. I then measured the cardboard box they came in. It measures exactly 24x12x12 which has a volume of 15 gallons. In the description it says there are approx 1200-1500 balls and because I have no life I sat down and counted them... there was 1,397. :roll: But the description ALSO says 20 Gallon Box filled with RY Blue Bio-Balls. I do not have any idea how many 1 1/4" bio balls it takes to fill 20 gallons. I emailed him this message...

_Hi, I recieved these today, thanks! The item description states that it is a 20gallon box of bio-balls but the box I recieved measures 24x12x12 which is 15 gallons. I am really disappointed in receiving only 15 gallons since I was expecting 5 more. Please let me know how we can resolve this. Thanks! ~Brad_

and got this message in response...

_Bio balls cannot be measured jumbled together because they tend to sink into one another. Bio balls are only measured by count, or if you want to measure gallonage, they need to be laid out.

IF you count them, you will see that they meet or exceed the count listed under the auction.

This is the standard method as taken by the manufacturer. We have used that same box for the 20g bio-balls for over 6 years now.

I hope this helps_

Did I get ripped off? Would you pursue this further? Your opinions are appreciated, thanks!


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## VT4Me (Mar 23, 2008)

I would say they are misrepresenting the product. If they can't guarantee 20g, they shouldn't have mentioned this in the listing, only the approximate count. They shouldn't list it as 20g when the box itself only has a volume of 15g.

What they may have done for the past 6 years is no concern of yours. They offered 20g but didn't send you 20g. The actual number of balls is irrelevant, in this case. In the aquarium game volume is usually a more crucial measurement.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Unfortunately, the gallonage seems to be more of almost a 'brand' name ... checking other sites that offer bioballs, they are the same as these people. So while I'd feel just as ripped, persuing it might not amount to much as it seems they are correct in saying the manufacturers list it the same way.

It seems like an aquarium itself. A 50 gallon breeder is actually only 46 gallons, but we don't go after the manufactuerer for our missing four gallons.

Not saying you shouldn't feel jipped, as I certainly would ... just not sure if it would get you anywhere.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

> 20 Gallon Box filled with RY Blue Bio-Balls.


If it wasn't a 20 gallon box, and it wasn't filled with bio balls, I would pursue this further.

Under ebays listing policy the listing MUST be accurate and representative of the product, a 15 gallon box not entirely filled with bio balls is not accurate or representative of the quoted statement.

If it were me I would argue that as my point, I would inform that if they do not meet the criteria which THEIR statement sets, I will report them for misrepresentation, and seek FULL reimbursement. If a merchant mislabels an item and you buy it as a result, they are bound to that sale.

When you buy goods (including goods supplied as part of a service), the law gives you certain rights as a consumer. The law says that the goods must:

* be of satisfactory quality. 
This means that the goods should be free of any faults, including minor ones. They should be of the quality that a reasonable person would expect given the description, price and any other relevant circumstances. You can take into account the appearance and finish of the goods, and whether there are any defects (including minor ones). You can also take into account whether publicized information about specific features of the goods is accurate, and whether the goods are safe when used properly

* be fit for the purpose. 
This means that you must be able to use them for the purposes that you would normally expect from this type of product, or any purpose that you have told the seller you want to use them for

* * match their description. 
This means that if there is a verbal or written description of the goods, it must be accurate. And if you choose goods after seeing a sample, your goods must match the sample.*

There are a number of things a trader is not allowed to do when they sell you goods. These include:

* make a written statement that you have no legal rights when you buy goods
* make a false description about goods
* sell dangerous or unsafe goods
* try to charge for goods sent that you didn't order
* *sell short measure or short weight*
* give a misleading price, either in writing or verbally.

A trader may be guilty of a criminal offence if they mislead you so that you take a different decision about whether or not to buy something.

This could be by giving you misleading information. For example, you are told your washing machine can't be repaired and you need a new one. If this is not true, the trader is committing a misleading action.

A trader may also be guilty of a criminal offence if they fail to give you important information that affects whether or not you buy something. This is called a misleading omission. For example, a trader advertises mobile phones for sale without mentioning they are reconditioned. This is important information that you should have been told about.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Another point:



> All of our items are guaranteed to arrive exactly as described in our auction description.


They really are shooting themselves in the foot if they try and argue, the description is for a full 20 gallon box of these balls, not, a box of "20 gallon" bioballs - which would be descriptive of a box of "brand name" bioballs.

You have to be so careful with terminology as a seller, this shows why.



> 20 Gallon Box filled with RY Blue Bio-Balls.


A 20 gallon box filled with the product then, not a 15 gallon box....



> Dimensions: 20 Gallon Box


So a 20 gallon box then - was the box 20 gallons? No! Misrepresentation!



> This full 20 gallons of balls has enough


Misleading as it continues to suggest that the "20 gallon" box contains a full 20 gallon volume of the balls.

I would inform them that if they have been selling like this for 6 years they have mislead potentially hundreds of sellers and that they are liable to face repercussions if ANY of those buyers wished. I would politely inform them that they are obliged to meet the criteria which THEY specified unless they wish to take this further, and I would also kindly suggest that they reword their sales page so that it is truly representative of the product quantity, so as to avoid any future confusion/potential issues. I can be almost certain that although mainstream merchants may use similar terminology, they aren't using it like this individual.

I would also let them know that if they resolve the issue in am amicable manner then I would be more than happy to use them again, I would not leave them negative/neutral feedback, and would in fact recommend their service to others (assuming actual price, product quality, delivery speed etc was competitive, bar the poor sales terminology).

Sorry for going on but sales misrepresentation is a major issue, especially with eBay, I've had to deal with this multiple times for friends and family and it really narks me. It's not about making a loss, or life difficult for the merchant, it's about getting what you thought you'd paid for, at the same time making the merchant aware of their error (it is not necessarily intentional remember) so that hopefully they make corrections for your, their, and any future consumers benefit.


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## Rockydog (Oct 21, 2007)

This is an explanation on bio-balls from the manufacturer of my sump http://www.abyssacrylicworks.com/bioballs.htm. It does appear that the seller is correct.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Rockydog this would be fine, but nowhere has this been explained on the ebay sellers sale page.



> Please Note: A 'gallon' of bio-balls is equivalent to about 80 pieces and is NOT equivalent to a volumetric gallon. This is a manufacturer standard, NOT a Abyss Acrylic Works policy.


Like I said, I'm sure the amount sold is the same, but the terminology used is not, and as the terminology of the ebay sales page is suggestive of a volume BASED on the box size, it is a different scenario. That it is a "standard" is not an acceptable excuse as the consumer may or may not be aware of this - at the end of the day, the law does not require them to be aware of this unless it is made apparent by said merchant.

What Rockydog has linked to is how the seller SHOULD have advertised the product, thus covering themselves from such liability.

I don't think you got ripped off, I just think the ebay seller should have been a little more careful in their description, as they were not, you are entitled to pursue this further as their description IS misleading of the actual quantity you are paying for. I would link them to Rockydog's link and point out that this would have been the correct use of their terminology. DO THIS even if you do not intend to pursue it further - let them know that their current sales page can be deemed as misleading under consumer rights, and suggest that they change it so that future misunderstandings are eliminated - you will be doing them and future buyers a favour by ensuring that the advertisement is fair in its representation of the product.


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## Rockydog (Oct 21, 2007)

The seller did make this claim _In the description it says there are approx 1200-1500 balls and because I have no life I sat down and counted them... there was 1,397_. Seems to be pretty accurate to me.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

My bad I read that as the OP had counted them.

Even so, the reoccurring trend in their description IS misleading, you cannot argue that the area's I have quoted are suggestive of a box with the volume of 20 gallons, being filled with these bio balls, NOT that you get 20 gallons of bio balls, bearing in mind that a 'gallon' of bio-balls is equivalent to about 80 pieces and is NOT equivalent to a volumetric gallon.

:lol:

The buyer is entitled to pursue this, is the seller wrong, no, is the seller wrong in their use of the description in this instance, yes, the end result is that the consumer has the right to pursue this (with the law behind them).

As I said, I don't think you got ripped off, the least I would do is correct the seller in their misrepresentation, it is quite a trivial amount we are talking, so personally I would simply try and have them amend their error for the benefit of future consumers. But I would also let them know that if I wanted to, I have the right to claim that volume based on their description - ie a 20 gallon box filled. :roll:


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## maddyfish (Jul 23, 2004)

I think you will be much happier long run, if you go buy a few more bio balls and forget it.
Nobody prosecutes these meaningless offenses. Nobody would be fined. Yes you might get some of your money back, or all, but then you would likely have to buy bio balls again.
Save yourself a lot of hassle, just buy the remaining bio balls that you need, and make note not to buy from this seller again.
:fish:


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

maddyfish, I agree.

However, eBays policies mean that they HAVE to enforce consequences for such offences, no matter how trivial or "meaningless". That may simply be, and usually is, account suspension.

I think we are all in agreement that the OP did not get ripped off, that it is pretty trivial, and that simply correcting the seller would be the most effective use of the OP's energy. But it is their right to pursue it if they so wish and I simply want to provide that information to them if that is their decision, and to inform them that they are not unreasonable in expecting to pursue the case.

If you part with your hard earned cash for what you are lead to believe is *x* amount of something, well, you want *x* amount, and you are darn well entitled to it!


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## remarkosmoc (Oct 19, 2005)

I think it is somewhere in a grey area. If 20 gallons isn't 20 gallons in the industry (just like contents may settle in potato chip bags) that is understandable. However, the seller isn't just selling 20 gallons of balls. If he listed it as 20 gallons of balls then he could argue that 1 gallon = x pieces in the industry. He didn't do that, he listed it as a "20 gallon box filled with balls". This is an important distinction.

I would request that he give you a 20% refund; or a full refund with product returned at his cost. He'll probably give you the 20% to make you go away and hopefully learn his lesson regarding accuracy.

If you paid at paypal, I believe they will favor you in a "item not as described" claim.


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## kingdave (Mar 9, 2007)

The way I look at it the OP didn't get ripped off. He got the same number of Bio balls that he would have gotten from any other vendor selling the "20 gallons" worth. His only disappointment should be that the industry has been very unclear by referring to bio balls by volume, not by count.

To compare it to another scenario... I wouldn't return a 75 gallon tank because it only held 68 gallons of water... even if I was unaware that tanks always hold less water than their names would suggest.

Or another way... I wouldn't return a 10 gallon hat that only held 2 gallons


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## Sin in Style2 (Feb 6, 2004)

" This is the standard method as taken by the manufacturer. We have used that same box for the 20g bio-balls for over 6 years now. "

Is a result of this type of thinking......

" I think you will be much happier long run, if you go buy a few more bio balls and forget it. 
Nobody prosecutes these meaningless offenses. Nobody would be fined. Yes you might get some of your money back, or all, but then you would likely have to buy bio balls again. 
Save yourself a lot of hassle, just buy the remaining bio balls that you need, and make note not to buy from this seller again. "

They said 20g worth and sent a 15g box. Any 10 yr old will tell you thats lying. I say persue it just for future buyers protection from this same way of thinking. The count of bioballs is on, and nice work counting them by the way, but that doesnt change the previous statement. If a person like in this case wants to fill a space there is no way for them to know how many balls its gona take to do it so they will shop by volume measurment.

So i say if there is laws to protect you from this **** then persue it. So what if you gotta buy more bioballs or maybe you dont get any money for your grief. I wouldnt call them theives but maybe a con. Be like me selling you a brand new car with flawless paint and never been driven. you send me 10 grand and i send you a hotwheels car as described.


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## kingdave (Mar 9, 2007)

Sin in Style2 said:


> If a person like in this case wants to fill a space there is no way for them to know how many balls its gona take to do it so they will shop by volume measurment.


Since the volume of bio balls varies depending on how densely they are packed, then there is no completely accurate way to sell bio balls using gallon measurements. Just like potato chips settle in the bag during shipment, so do bio balls when placed in a sump or filter chamber, or cardboard box, for that matter.

Bio balls are also sold in different sizes. I could see a scenario where 5 gallons of small bio balls would have more surface area than 5 gallons of large bio balls since the smaller balls will be packed more tightly together than the large ones.

When you go to the gas station you don't buy "300 miles" worth of gas, you buy as much as your gas tank holds, which is nearly impossible to guess accurately until you're done pumping. My suggestion to the OP is that the discussion on how bio balls are marketed and how they are measured is secondary to the main concern: Does he have enough biological filtration?


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## remarkosmoc (Oct 19, 2005)

All valid points raised in the last couple posts. However, I think they all apply to a seller selling "20 gallons of bioballs" This seller sold "a 20 gallon box filled with bioballs". That's a huge difference in my opinion.

A bag of potato chips is sold as X oz of chips; not a .5 cubic foot bag full of chips.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Exactly tannable,

There is no argument here at all - the industry is perfectly clear, the individual seller was not.

Their sales page clearly defines a 20 gallon box as the measurement, several times. This is *not* following the industry standard for defining (or measuring) the product quantity and therefore the buyer can "safely" take the assumption that the individual seller is not following industry standards but their own measurements.

The seller promised a measurement, and sent another. That it was the standard to the industry is irrelevant - the buyer received goods that did not match the sales pitch, the sales pitch that had caused the buyer to take interest and make purchase with this particular seller - this is misleading, plain and simple.

Ripped off, probably not (trivial amount), intentional, probably not, excusable, absolutely not. Product description MUST accurately define the product in accordance with ALL of the regulations I posted earlier, otherwise this happens and although this amount is trivial, a precedence must be set.



> That's a huge difference in my opinion.


Not just your opinion bud, that's an unacceptable difference as defined by the law.


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## ig88250 (Jun 8, 2003)

> 20 Gallon Box filled with RY Blue Bio-Balls.


If Bio-Balls are measured, by definition, to be equal to x number of Bio Balls equal 1 gallon, then by definition, a box of bio balls in which the total number of bio balls is equivalent to 20 gallons of bio balls, then a box, no matter the size, is a 20 gallon box of bio balls. There is no misrepresentation. It is not the sellers job to educate the consumer on industry standards. He is selling a 20 (bio balls) gallon box not a 20 fluid gallon box. In the same way if I sold you 128oz of pizza sauce you might be shocked to find it in a container smaller than 128 fluid gallons if you didn't know that pizza sauce is sold by weight and not volume.

BUT, even though the seller is not responsible to educate the consumer on industry standards for product measurement, he still goes out of his way to make it clear...



> Each box contains an average of 1200 Bio-balls. This full 20 gallons of balls has enough...


Here he defines 20 gallons of balls as 1200 bio balls - just in case you were still thinking fluid ounces you should now know better.



> Dimensions: 20 Gallon Box - Average 1200-1500pc


Are you still confused? Here the seller clarifies just in case...

If anyone complained to me about "misrepresentation" I would laugh at them, explain to them why their ignorance is making them look stupid, show them how I made what they are getting VERY clear and then ask them to not buy from me again. I don't have time to deal with annoying customers who try to act smart and nitpick every sentence from a position of ignorance. They say the customer is always right and I have learned in my business (which is smoothies and not bio balls selling) that this is not only a lie - but that the customer usually isn't right simply because they don't have all the information.

If you can politely explain the situation to a confused customer they are usually reasonable - but the ones that insist they are right and act like they know better... those customers can go to my competitors...


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## fishEH (Sep 15, 2008)

I think the OP would be just as disappointed if he received a 20 gallon box "filled" with 10 gallons of bio-balls. In this case the buyer would be getting ripped off even though the auction description was accurate.

The short and simple is the OP thought he was buying 20 gallons of bio-balls, not a twenty gallon box filled with more/less gallons of bio-balls. He received the industy standard 20 gallons of bio-balls. He DID NOT get ripped off.

Any time something that can settle or interconnect with itself is sold by volume there is bound to be some confusion and margin of error. For example: I bought 5 gallons of bioballs from a reputable online dealer(not ebay). When I dumped them in my 5 gallon pail at home the bio-balls did not fill it to the top.

Since the OP has lots of time on his hands he could do the following:
Place the bio-balls in a 10 x 10 square. Measure the length, width(should be same as length), and height. Now multiply to find the volume on 100 bio-balls that are not settled or interconnected. Convert to gallons.


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## fishEH (Sep 15, 2008)

OK, I just did that math. 
1.25" x 10= 12.5"
12.5"x12.5"x1.25"=195.3125 cubic inches
195.3125 cubic inches = .846 gallons per 100 bio-balls
1400(1397 rounded up) bio-balls / 100 = 14
14 x .846 gallons per 100 bio-balls = 11.844 gallons

So apparantley your 1400 bio-balls is only 11.844 gallons. 
If this is this "industry standard" then something is wrong!

Please correct my math if I fouled something up.


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