# Torn between sump and canister filter



## chiuey (Jan 12, 2017)

I am building a new aquarium for the first time. I've decided to go big with a 125g tank to house african cichlids. The red sea reefer setup has a sump already installed and was wondering if that would work with the african cichlids? Are sumps easier to maintain and work with freshwater? Or should I buy another stand and tank and use canister filters? Any help would be greatly appreciated! Also I'm looking for a modern white cabinet setup similar to the red sea reefer 450. Anyone know of any other companies that sell this?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't like sumps because they are noisier than canisters. Canisters are VERY easy. I take care of hiding equipment with in-line heaters and 3D backgrounds.


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## lilscoots (Mar 13, 2012)

with the right set-up sumps can be silent. running a bean animal or herbie style overflow is silent. Sumps also allow you to remove all equipment from the tank. In-line heaters would do the same for canisters. Sumps do allow for a refugium if desired, but that takes up space, sumps will likely take up quite a bit more space below the tank so the stand would have to accomodate that. 
All that said, I have a 180 with an open stand 60 gallon sump with 30 gallons of refugium where I keep my heaters and plants and the return pump, keeping the pump in the water instead of out keeps it more quiet than having it external. I have to clean the mechanical filter elements about every six months. It also allows for constant water height in the tank, as the level in the sump will change, It also lets me do less stressful water changes, which I've been done with for a long time due to a drip system. I vote sump but I know a lot of people that really like canisters.


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## Walt (Feb 21, 2017)

lilscoots said:


> with the right set-up sumps can be silent. running a bean animal or herbie style overflow is silent. Sumps also allow you to remove all equipment from the tank. In-line heaters would do the same for canisters. Sumps do allow for a refugium if desired, but that takes up space, sumps will likely take up quite a bit more space below the tank so the stand would have to accomodate that.
> All that said, I have a 180 with an open stand 60 gallon sump with 30 gallons of refugium where I keep my heaters and plants and the return pump, keeping the pump in the water instead of out keeps it more quiet than having it external. I have to clean the mechanical filter elements about every six months. It also allows for constant water height in the tank, as the level in the sump will change, It also lets me do less stressful water changes, which I've been done with for a long time due to a drip system. I vote sump but I know a lot of people that really like canisters.


Constant water level and easier water changes are the big pros for sumps IMO. I like to have a sump that is about 30% of the total system volume so that I can simply empty and refill the sump to get a 30% water change. Some creative plumbing really takes most of the labor out of a water change.


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

I run sumps on my 125 and 180 and canisters on my 75. My preference leans towards sumps, but if the tank is not drilled, I'd go canister and not deal with hassle of drilling tanks.


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## Pdxmonkeyboy (Oct 17, 2016)

sump with dripper for the win


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## Ape-Fish (Jul 1, 2006)

I have to concur on sump. :thumb: I've had my sump 'bio-ball' system for a long time now, and everything is still ticking along with a regular pre-filter sponge rinse, and a little vacuuming to remove uneaten food in areas where it collects. I feel lucky i went for a sump. I also really appreciate the way the tank level remains full constantly until it's time for a water change. Canisters look like something you need to keep buying things for too, like disposable filters, O rings, hosing, and that sort of thing.


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## Ape-Fish (Jul 1, 2006)

Regarding noise level. The flowing water makes no discernible noise, but the sump pump does make some hum and a gurgle if it gets air in it. My ambient dB levels go from ~40dB with pump off, to ~46dB with pump on, and up to 50dB behind the tank. I've wondered if there's a quieter way to pump the water. Still think it was the better choice. I'm looking at ways to make a silent pump. Maybe the secret is getting the pump out of the water and into a sound blocking enclosure.


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## xgtphalex (Jan 30, 2017)

75 gallon with a sump here. I buried my tank in a wall so the viewing area of my tank is silent. It's so easy to maintain the sump, as for canisters I have run them and like them,but my vote is for a sump.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

The other thing that a sump does for you is maintain a constant water level in your display tank. If you have a dedicated return pump section in the sump it makes it very easy to monitor water level change from evaporation. A sump can also increase aeration of the water. In the case of my sump the water flows through openings and down into the return pump section, as a result a lot of surface agitation occurs there. There is some flowing water noise from it but I think its a soothing sound.


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## xgtphalex (Jan 30, 2017)

I also use my sump for timeout for fish or fish that are needing to recover.


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## toxicmegakitten (Feb 18, 2014)

How about for picking up fish poo/mulm/detritis from the ground. With my canister I only need to vacuum twice a month as most solid debris make it to the intakes, and sand looks pretty clean between vacuumings. Will a sump have decent mechanical filtration? Wouldn't all debris have to make it to the very surface to get any good amount of mechanical filtration?


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

toxicmegakitten said:


> How about for picking up fish poo/mulm/detritis from the ground. With my canister I only need to vacuum twice a month as most solid debris make it to the intakes, and sand looks pretty clean between vacuumings. Will a sump have decent mechanical filtration? Wouldn't all debris have to make it to the very surface to get any good amount of mechanical filtration?


Debris can be picked up from lower and mid level intakes, depending on the overflow design. If the tank has built in overflows such as on Aqueon or Marineland tanks, there are lower pickups. For HOB overflows, the debris does need to get up towards the surface. Even this can be somewhat overcome by creative use of return jets, spraybars or other current making pumps.

With the pool filter sand substrate, there is very little vacuuming needed. There are still some bits of stuff on the bottom here and there, but they go away pretty quickly. Once in a while I'll stir up substrate with my hand or a plastic shovel, usually there is little in the way of 'dust' that shows up.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

There are positives and negatives to both, here is my take on each:

Sump: My personal preference because of the customization possibilities, if you have a large enough one you can put plants or a deep sand bed for nitrate removal, they add a lot of extra water volume to the system, you can hide heaters and other equipment in it, its easier to remove media for maintenance, the overflow keeps the surface of your tank skimmed and clean and keeps the water level constant, and you get extra aeration of the water because of the added surface area. Negatives are increased noise and they are less efficient at filtering than canisters (you need more media volume than you would with a canister)

Canister: Much more efficient than a sump because the water is forced through the media by pressure, VERY quiet, easier to turn on and off for feedings (you don't have to worry about restarting a siphon drain every time you shut it down, which is my favorite thing about a canister actually), lastly I have noticed in my tank that the canister keeps the bottom of my tank cleaner because of the suction return located near the bottom of the tank (rather than an overflow). Obviously the negative is you don't have the surface skimming so sometimes you get things floating on the surface that don't go away.

I like both but overall prefer sumps because of the customization possibilities and ability to hide equipment. If you are a DIY kind of guy or like to experiment go with a sump. But if you want something that is more "plug and play" and you don't want to realize it is even there, you should go with a canister.


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## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

gillmanjr said:


> There are positives and negatives to both, here is my take on each:
> 
> Sump: My personal preference because of the customization possibilities, if you have a large enough one you can put plants or a deep sand bed for nitrate removal, they add a lot of extra water volume to the system, you can hide heaters and other equipment in it, its easier to remove media for maintenance, the overflow keeps the surface of your tank skimmed and clean and keeps the water level constant, and you get extra aeration of the water because of the added surface area. Negatives are increased noise and they are less efficient at filtering than canisters (you need more media volume than you would with a canister)
> 
> ...


never used a sump before but...
+1... :fish: :thumb: =D> :thumb: =D> :thumb: :fish:


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## mambee (Apr 13, 2003)

I've never had a sump. Is there any danger of a tank overflowing? My other concern is the additional weight from the water in the sump.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

> Is there any danger of a tank overflowing? My other concern is the additional weight from the water in the sump.


Yes, if your overflow gets blocked enough your tank will overflow. To reduce this risk you can have more than one overflow drain. Both the Herbie and Beananimal designs address this problem.

The sump will add weight, however, going with acrylic or certain prefabricated units for the sump will make this a little less of an issue.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

mambee said:


> I've never had a sump. Is there any danger of a tank overflowing? My other concern is the additional weight from the water in the sump.


The only way the display tank could overflow with a sump is if your drain got clogged. And that could only happen if you run a single pipe drain setup (Durso). If that was the case and your drain clogged than yes your return pump would empty the sump into your display tank and overflow it. But frankly I've never heard of that happening. Plus most people run a 2 or 3 pipe drain setup (Herbie or Bean) which are quieter, allow flow rate adjustment, and provide that extra backup in case the primary drain does clog.

Your sump could overflow if you don't have either a siphon break or check valve in your return piping. If you don't have either of those things the display tank with drain back through the return pump when you shut it off. Your display tank would drain down until the return nozzles were exposed to air. To prevent that you either install a check valve or have a hole drilled in the return piping near the surface of the tank water to stop the siphon (there are also siphon stop products that you can buy, but I wouldn't bother). I would highly recommend the siphon break method, I wouldn't rely solely on a check valve, most of the PVC check valves are too cheap.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

gillmanjr said:


> mambee said:
> 
> 
> > I've never had a sump. Is there any danger of a tank overflowing? My other concern is the additional weight from the water in the sump.
> ...


Just don't run your returns so far below the water line and you won't have to worry about it siphoning. I've never in all the years I've been keeping fish, heard of running a return line so deep that one would have to use a check valve to prevent the returns from overflowing the sump. Where did this idea come from, I'm completely baffled by this?!? My drains have always been lower than the returns, that's the absolute CORRECT way and anything else doesn't make sense whatsoever. Sumps are really simple to figure out with a little common sense and time to experiment with it BEFORE fish are added to an aquarium.


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## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

chiuey said:


> I am building a new aquarium for the first time. I've decided to go big with a 125g tank to house african cichlids. The red sea reefer setup has a sump already installed and was wondering if that would work with the african cichlids? Are sumps easier to maintain and work with freshwater? Or should I buy another stand and tank and use canister filters? Any help would be greatly appreciated! Also I'm looking for a modern white cabinet setup similar to the red sea reefer 450. Anyone know of any other companies that sell this?


We use canister filters on all of our tanks and love them, never used a sump. That said, I am in the process of building our first sump because I've always wanted to try one out. If your setup has a sump already I think I would try it out first.


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

gillmanjr said:


> mambee said:
> 
> 
> > I've never had a sump. Is there any danger of a tank overflowing? My other concern is the additional weight from the water in the sump.
> ...


This way is the most common way, however, it is possible for the internal overflow seams to be compromised as well. As others have pointed out, a sump is no more or less likely to cause water spills than are HOB or canisters PROVIDED that sound engineering choices are made when the system is designed. Same rules apply to canisters such as using check valves or siphon breaks when the return is deep in the tank. Physics does not discriminate between filter styles. I've been quite satisfied with the stock overflows on both my drilled tanks, and don't see any need to go fancier or try to maximize the flow of water through the sump.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> gillmanjr said:
> 
> 
> > mambee said:
> ...


Some people want their return nozzles pointed down to keep the bottom of the tank clean rather than at the surface. There are plenty of people that use what I described, so many that there is actually a manufactured product from customaquariums.com called "siphon stopper". Look it up. I'm actually very surprised that you've never even heard of this. Its not uncommon at all.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I'm sorry but it makes absolutely no sense to use a return in that manner... They should be used for surface agitation to aerate the water and circulation pumps are for moving debris off the bottom. Also, if you were to drill a siphon break in a return at the surface of the water, it would be spraying out of that hole as well.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> I'm sorry but it makes absolutely no sense to use a return in that manner... They should be used for surface agitation to aerate the water and circulation pumps are for moving debris off the bottom. Also, if you were to drill a siphon break in a return at the surface of the water, it would be spraying out of that hole as well.


If the hole is just under the water line you don't hear or see the water. The hole only has to be about 1/8" anyway. Thats how I had my 50 gallon corner tank setup. I used the nozzles to clean the bottom and a powerhead for surface agitation. There is no "correct way".

The reason the return nozzles were so far under the surface was because of the fittings. When you use PVC (90s plus a female NPT adapter plus a loc line adapter) you end up with the nozzles several inches under the water line (if the 90s are sitting directly on top of the tank). So unless you use a bunch of loc line fittings to move the nozzles back up near the surface, they end up under the water a good ways.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

Check it out


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I'm sorry man but I honestly can't conceive how you managed to do something like that, but then again you do have a habit of over-complicating things lol. The return pipe only requires one 90 at the top and a threaded adapter, into which a loc line fitting is screwed and a short length of loc line with a spray attachment. I could have my return nozzle completely out of the water if I wished. There's no need to over complicate things, the most simple way that works is always the best when it comes to sumps. I would tend to lean towards that being pretty much a niche type product considering most drilled tanks don't have the return line drilled in the back of the tank


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> I'm sorry man but I honestly can't conceive how you managed to do something like that, but then again you do have a habit of over-complicating things lol. The return pipe only requires one 90 at the top and a threaded adapter, into which a loc line fitting is screwed and a short length of loc line with a spray attachment. I could have my return nozzle completely out of the water if I wished. There's no need to over complicate things, the most simple way that works is always the best when it comes to sumps.


If the PVC 90 is sitting directly on the top edge of the tank you CANNOT have the output nozzle above the water line, unless you are running your tank at a low water level. The 90 degree fittings would have to be up in the air several inches above the rim of the tank (which is the way I have my current tank setup). I could not do that with my previous tank because of the canopy, which I didn't build. If you don't understand what I am talking about then just stop talking.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I understand what you're saying, and that's fine. But under normal circumstances there wouldn't be a need to do something like that. That's the point I'm trying to make. That's why I'm saying to stop over-complicating things for the OP because you had some sort of an issue with your canopy that didn't allow you to run the return high enough. Agree to disagree.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> I understand what you're saying, and that's fine. But under normal circumstances there wouldn't be a need to do something like that. That's the point I'm trying to make. That's why I'm saying to stop over-complicating things for the OP because you had some sort of an issue with your canopy that didn't allow you to run the return high enough. Agree to disagree.


I'm not over complicating anything. In fact its not complicated at all. I don't like to tell people what they should do or that something is the correct way or wrong way. I like to give people information so they can learn for themselves and figure out how they want to do it. Telling someone they should put their return nozzles at the water line because its the "correct way" of doing it is ridiculous. There are tons of different configurations that people can use for their aquarium plumbing and they should understand how it works so they can do it the way THEY want to do it.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Like I said, agree to disagree... You don't mention any other configuration than the one you had rigged because of your canopy, so it's not like you're taking some "moral high ground" and trying to educate anyone on anything other than your setup either. All I'm saying is that it's better to keep it simple for someone that's new to sumps instead of adding more parts and steps.


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## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

yes agree to disagree...
:fish: :fish: :dancing: :fish: :fish: ...


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

This is how my returns are plumbed, just for reference...


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## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

is that about 1/2 in below the waterline?...


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

joselepiu said:


> is that about 1/2 in below the waterline?...


It's about an inch below the water line, but my drains are lower than that


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## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

how much lower?...
how deep is/are the return/s and how deep is/are the drain/s?...


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

The drains are about 2 inches below the water line


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## Lee79 (Nov 7, 2017)

I prefere an in line check valve myself. I don't have to worry about where my return line is in relation to my drain. I run a check valve on my drain pump as well (I run a drip system). I don't want any of my hard plumbing to be able to crate a syphon.

All this back and forth about different return set ups is exactly what I love about sumps vs store bought filtration. There is no wrong or right way. A sump is a blank canvas where you can build the filtration you want. You can experiment with new combinations or use someone else's tired and true design. The most rewarding part of the hobby for me is seeing the results I planned out take shape. Just seeing my design in action and knowing what every stage does and why is awesome. Of course I prefer DIY over plug and play. I get the same joy from fixing a computer or installing a garbage disposal.

That being said, it has taken many failures to learn what works and what doesn't. A canister takes a lot of guess work out of it. I you want plug and play, get a canister filter.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

Just curious, how often do you have to take the check valve apart to clean it?


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

With a freshwater tank, there are some decent PVC check valves that would probably last a LONG time. There are even loc-line check valves though I don't know how good they are. With a saltwater tank it is a totally different story though. I would never rely solely on a check valve with a saltwater setup and I seriously doubt you would get more than a year or two of dependable service out of one.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

gillmanjr said:


> With a freshwater tank, there are some decent PVC check valves that would probably last a LONG time. There are even loc-line check valves though I don't know how good they are. With a saltwater tank it is a totally different story though. I would never rely solely on a check valve with a saltwater setup and I seriously doubt you would get more than a year or two of dependable service out of one.


Could you suggest any check valves that should last? I've only read about them on the saltwater forums where they're not recommended for the reasons you've mentioned.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

zimmy said:


> gillmanjr said:
> 
> 
> > With a freshwater tank, there are some decent PVC check valves that would probably last a LONG time. There are even loc-line check valves though I don't know how good they are. With a saltwater tank it is a totally different story though. I would never rely solely on a check valve with a saltwater setup and I seriously doubt you would get more than a year or two of dependable service out of one.
> ...


What size pipe? Below is the link to one that I used in my previous tank. However, I wasn't using that one for my return line but rather for a DIY Purigen reactor. That one I bought has a spring loaded flapper which normally I wouldn't recommend because you don't really want metal in your aquarium system. I used it because I needed to install it horizontally so I needed it to be spring loaded. If you are installing one vertically it doesn't need to be spring loaded, you could use either a swing type (with no spring) or a ball type check valve. Either will work fine. Without a spring they will just close by gravity so they HAVE to be installed vertically or at least in pipe that has a vertical uphill run (to re-seat the check).

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E4 ... UTF8&psc=1

Here is one with no metal but this is for 1.5" pipe...

https://www.amazon.com/Valterra-200-C15 ... 3W7VHP5RR7


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## Lee79 (Nov 7, 2017)

I have always used the standard schd 40 check valves they sell at hardware stores. They do have a metal spring in them though. I have never had any problems in salt or fresh water with them.


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

If they have a spring its called a backflow prevent if it is just a one way hinged stop its a check valve.they need to be installed a certain way to work. One is a force close the other only checks if water goes backwards. Also the backflow requires a certain pressure to fully open so depending on flow it might not fully open. These unitsare meant for pressurized water applications in the 50 to 100psi range so performance may vary.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

Cyphound said:


> If they have a spring its called a backflow prevent if it is just a one way hinged stop its a check valve.they need to be installed a certain way to work. One is a force close the other only checks if water goes backwards. Also the backflow requires a certain pressure to fully open so depending on flow it might not fully open. These unitsare meant for pressurized water applications in the 50 to 100psi range so performance may vary.


This is not correct. Backflow preventers vs check valves has more to do with the application than how they are built. Backflow preventers are used primarily to protect potable water systems from contamination. There are a few different types of backflow preventers (vacuum breakers, RPZs, etc). Whether or not something has a spring does not mean that it is a backflow preventer or a check valve. There are plenty of check valves that have springs.


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

My point was that there are differences. Check valves open to full volume with little flow. Spring loaded or bfp valves weather single or double close require a certain amount of flow to fully open. Im just pointing out to people that there are differences in how they operate. A spring loaded unit might create back pressure on the pump because of the resistance due to the spring always wanting to stay closed. This makes the pump work harder, shortening it's lifespan and likely making it run louder. A true check valve uses a clapperstyle gate. It must be installed horizontally in order to work but has zero resistance and might be a better option. True check valves also does not suffer from seal fatigue unlike spring loaded units.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

Yes there are differences but my point is that nobody would search for or buy a backflow preventer for aquarium use. Thats just not what they are for. Whether you want one with a spring or not, almost all PVC valves of this type are called check valves.


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## patchj (Jun 8, 2019)

gillmanjr said:


> There are positives and negatives to both, here is my take on each:
> 
> Sump: My personal preference because of the customization possibilities, if you have a large enough one you can put plants or a deep sand bed for nitrate removal, they add a lot of extra water volume to the system, you can hide heaters and other equipment in it, its easier to remove media for maintenance, the overflow keeps the surface of your tank skimmed and clean and keeps the water level constant, and you get extra aeration of the water because of the added surface area. Negatives are increased noise and they are less efficient at filtering than canisters (you need more media volume than you would with a canister)
> 
> ...


OK I have to address this. Sump filters are far superior to canisters in everyway. Noise, with Herbie style overflows and bean animal overflows, Noise=zero. Herbie and bean animal style overflows also addresses the siphon issues basically automatic self staring siphon. Maybe small sucking noises when the siphon self starts, but once running has zero noise again. Sometimes canisters have some noise when restarting also. Now let's talk media! This is the one that got me. :-? As far as filtering goes, sumps are KING!!! Canisters are limited to the size each individual tray. Maybe 3 or 4 trays, few inches wide and deep...that's it! Sump are on a completely different level. Water is definitely forced through everything and all media in a sump. The designs are almost limitless as to what kind of filter style and media to use. You have a 4 foot sump? Guess what? You can use all 4 feet to filter. Not just 3 to 4 trays with a few inches! Foot and a half of mechanical? Go for it!!! 2 feet of biological!!! **** yeah!!! Mix it up!!! Want quiet standstill operation while feeding? Get a DC return pump with control, and pause the pump for 10-15 minutes with automatic restart for feedings. Some pumps have the ability to be controlled wirelessly through WiFi on your phone. WiFi controlled filter! What!!! Think about that! Detritus and debris on the floor of your tank you can get creative with wavemakers and powerheads to stir up the bottom a little. But take it from me...you'll never get rid of siphoning the gravel chore. But maybe cut down on how often you have to do it. Water changes? Get creative and do it through your sump! Install a automatic top off in the sump when water gets too low from evaporation...if you can? "I can't, I don't have access to a water line where my tank is setup." But the option is there! Water line never drops in display tank with a sump. There's a reason why major aquarium places use sumps and not canisters...such as SeaWorld! And Monterey Bay Aquarium! Take a guess as to what country and state I live in?! Lol If you have the space and the ability to use a sump that should be your number one choice. Canisters should and always be second. Why not use the absolute best for our pets? After all most of us considered them family!


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## patchj (Jun 8, 2019)

patchj said:


> gillmanjr said:
> 
> 
> > There are positives and negatives to both, here is my take on each:
> ...


(Update) I misspoke when I said I needed at water line for automatic top off systems. Automated top off systems can be done with a water reservoir typically 5 to 10 gallon water tank. Use an automatic top off system with pump and you're good to go. Good system is a JBJ A.T.O. Water Level Controller. Automatic water changes could also be done, but you would need a dedicated water line/source in order to go that route. So automatic water top offs are most definitely doable in a sump!


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## ken31cay (Oct 9, 2018)

patchj said:


> Some pumps have the ability to be controlled wirelessly through WiFi on your phone. WiFi controlled filter! What!!!


I just tell Alexa to turn off/on my sumps or tank lights, etc., but I need to press buttons on my sump's controller to increase/decrease the pump's speed. Though the Alexa thing would work just as easily with a canister. My sumps don't rely on a siphon mechanism so they're either on or off.

I'd have to say that I much prefer sumps in every respect compared to canisters when I have used them in the past.


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## GuitarShark (May 28, 2019)

I prefer the quietness of a canister personally, but have heard good things about the sump filter. It really is just personal preference.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Agree I prefer canisters. I don't get the argument about sumps having more media...since canisters already have more than enough, the extra media available in a sump is wasted. Bacteria grow to accommodate the bioload...not to fill up all the media.


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