# Buffers



## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

I used to use the cichlid recipe which kept my tank at Malawian levels. I had used it for over 30 years but about a year ago I switched to Seachem tang buffer in combination with their cichlid lake salts. I noticed an improvement in colouration and general well being within 2 weeks. 
I was wondering if others have used Kent buffers and in particular if someone has used both. I'm trying to compare values and ease of use. Also wanted to know if there is an alternative that would be cheaper that gets the ph and buffering up to Tanganyikan levels like the cichlid recipe does for Malawian tanks. With 5 tanks totaling 200 gallons weekly water changes are getting expensive.
Regards Mike


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

I had great color, excellent breeding and growth from just using baking soda and epsom salts for buffers. I don't know of any breeders that use the Kent products, because they're so expensive. With 500 gallons and 50% weekly water changes, I certainly avoided paying that much.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Baking soda wasn't the right product for me. Just couldn't get it high enough and required a lot of it. I like SeaChem Tang buffer. It is a great product. I get it in bulk on Amazon. I usually buy the 4kg size. Keep telling myself that next time I am gonna buy the 20 kg size as that is really the best value.

I stopped using the lake salt years ago. My fish do great without it so I save the expense.

Russ


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

I'm trying to find an alternative to Baking soda as it does not get ph past 8.2 ish and is too unstable anyway. Plus you can overdose it. My cyp fry have been the biggest benefactor to higher Ph and essential trace elements since using the unmentionable products. I'm seeing bigger fry clutches and more rapid growth and overall better looking fish. I don't know which is benefitting the fish but figure it's probably the salts. I will keep using the salts but feel I can reduce costs somewhat with an alternative to the buffer. I'm Cheap and if I can not see a benefit I don't waste my time. A fellow local hobbyist who was switching to planted ( crazy) gave me some buffer and salts and I was blown away. Even my wife commented. I'm now thinking I might go to a chemist to find what products I need. The MSDS sheets for the buffer don't say any more then carbonates and bi-carbonates. 
Mike


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Cyphound said:


> I'm trying to find an alternative to Baking soda as it does not get ph past 8.2 ish and is too unstable anyway. Plus you can overdose it. My cyp fry have been the biggest benefactor to higher Ph and essential trace elements since using the unmentionable products. I'm seeing bigger fry clutches and more rapid growth and overall better looking fish. I don't know which is benefitting the fish but figure it's probably the salts. I will keep using the salts but feel I can reduce costs somewhat with an alternative to the buffer. I'm Cheap and if I can not see a benefit I don't waste my time. A fellow local hobbyist who was switching to planted ( crazy) gave me some buffer and salts and I was blown away. Even my wife commented. I'm now thinking I might go to a chemist to find what products I need. The MSDS sheets for the buffer don't say any more then carbonates and bi-carbonates.
> Mike


SeaChem Tang lake salt and Tang buffer cost, practically, the same. I get the same results you mentioned from just the buffer (but my water is "off the chart" hard from the tap). The SeaChem Tang Buffer is a confidence product for me as the salt is for you. If salts are working, you are confident, and don't mind spending the money... then "good on ya mate." :wink: 

I'm not spending $58 on 4 kg of lake salt; so, it's not as big of a deal for me to spend $54 on 4 kg of the buffer. However, I'd be very interested if you find a quality buffer solution that is significantly cheaper.

Cheers,
Russ


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Great discussion. I think you bring up a good point of our source water having a big effect on what we need to do to get the results we're looking for. It will be interesting to hear the results of what you end up trying.


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

I have the post going in 2 sections because I initially was getting no response in this section. I'm going to post in the Tang section only from now on as I think this topic pertains to Tanganyikan more then other cichlids. Here is what I posted in general section earlier.

I have found a number of articles written about iodine deficiency causing a number of issues in Tanganyikan cichlids. They deficiency causes what is called Goiter and cyps are one of the fishes that it hits more then others particularly when they are young. In The Cichlid Aquarium" by Dr. Paul D. Loiselle he mentions that as well saying that some cities do not use iodine in their tap water. I know that the cichlid lake salts has iodine in it's make up.

Subsequent to starting this thread I contacted my city water department and asked for a break down of the city water. The big surprises for me. The PH is 9.2 at the treatment plant and they no longer use iodine. I had not tested the water out of the tap for a number of years because it has been at 7.8-8.0 so long I stopped testing. I was informed that they had increased it up a few of years ago when they also changed the formula of additives. So 2 things became apparent. When I was using the cichlid recipe my water got no higher then 8.2. So when I did my water changes I was causing spikes in the ph every time. This was likely having an adverse effect. Now that I'm using the supplements I have added the needed iodine and moved my ph to the levels of the tap water.

I think that this is why some people can use the cichlid recipe with success and other see better results using over the counter product like my self. It's more a result of what your local water supply uses in it's water and at what ph they are sending the water. Anyway sorry for the long post.
Mike


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

I didn't realize that baking soda could lower your ph. I knew that it would max out at 8.2, but not that it would bring the level of the tap water down.
I personally use baking soda because my KH is very low and I want to avoid ph swings by raising it. Do you know what your KH is out of the tap?


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

Baking soda doesn't It buffers to 8.2 no higher. So the tap water entering at 9.2 or close would fall as aeration slowly lowers it to whatever your water is buffered to. That's why I'm looking for a cheaper alternative to the over the counter products. I need to buffer the water to hold the Ph. Kh and Gh at the higher levels


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

Just to further what I just posted and please correct if I'm wrong. Ph will never stay at the value you want unless there is sufficient buffering capacity to hold it there. Your Kh is what will keep you PH from swinging. Simple bicarbonate Soda will not get the Kh high enough to keep you Ph higher 8.2


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

Cyphound said:


> Just to further what I just posted and please correct if I'm wrong. Ph will never stay at the value you want unless there is sufficient buffering capacity to hold it there. Your Kh is what will keep you PH from swinging. Simple bicarbonate Soda will not get the Kh high enough to keep you Ph higher 8.2


Sure it does, that's why people use it. My KH is 6 out of the tap and I add baking soda to get it up to around 12-13, which also gets my tanks up to 8.2 ph.
I'm talking about five tanks totaling 540 gallons of water that I do very large water changes on once a week.
If you're concerned about your GH levels you can add epsom salts (I personally pay no attention to Gh whatsoever).


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

Sorry, I can't edit my post.I think you meant to say, "higher than". That's true, baking soda will max the ph out at 8.2 no matter how much you put in.

I change around 360 gallons of water every week, baking soda is about the only affordable buffer for me.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Okay- two different concepts going here: buffering capacity, and pH.

Yes, baking soda can lower pH to 8.2... because it is a *diprotic acid*.

Its buffering capacity is a function of how many stray H+ ions in can throw at or take from the problem (of pH being too high or too low). If the pH is too high, H2C3O throws off an H+. If pH is too low, HC3O takes up a stray H+. Commercial Lake Tang buffers contain more carbonate salts (-CO2) that can pick up even more H+ ions (thus increasing pH) than bicarbonate.

I also had tap water pH over 9, with zero buffering capacity (KH). I found baking soda to be the right solution for my fish room because of the price and the results. I don't know if using commercial buffers would have improved my breeding and growth rates- quite possibly. But I had more than enough offspring for sale/trade and my fish looked great so I didn't explore other options beyond magnesium sulfate (Epsom salt for hardening my water) and sodium bicarbonate (baking soda for pH stabilization).

As far as pH swings- if your tank at pH 8.2 has a reasonable kH value, adding poorly buffered tap water at pH 9+ won't affect your fish- the buffering capacity instantaneously compensates. You will maintain your tank pH, though the water will be more dilute. If your source water is well buffered at pH 9+, then you'd have a problem. Municipal utilities keep tap water at high pH to avoid dissolving lead in aging pipes. They typically use NaOH-- a very strong base that provides zero buffering capacity.


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