# 1st Time Keeping Cichlids



## Ratvan

Morning All,

Thought I would start a Project Log for my latest project.

So I am a long time Reef Keeper and am in the process of stripping down my RSM 130D Reef Tank (34G/130L depending on location). I have had this tank running for the last 10 Years and have pretty much modified it as much as possible, short of throwing a sump on the thing. Sadly I lost the fish and corals a couple of months ago and have finally had to admit defeat and shutting down the tank. The costs of Saltwater for me now is just too expensive to try restarting so I have decided to switch back to Fresh Water after about 10 years away.

So, I have always loved Cichlids, especially the smaller Shell Dwelling species, my Mrs is from Zimbabwe and I have been attacked many times in Lake Tanganyika while scuba diving so the idea of having these vicious little monsters in my work tank is very much attractive to me.

So Since I know very little about this aspect of fish keeping I hope that someone could tell me if my planned set up/stocking list has any particular issues?

Tank: Red Sea Max 130D
Light: Kessil A360WE Tuna Blue (LFS will swap for Tuna Sun if i want)
Heater: 100W Adjustable
Return: 360 GPH Return Pump

Substrate and Hardscape:
•	5lbs Crushed Coral
•	5lbs Aragonite
•	5lbs Fine Sand
•	Snail Shells Minimum 50
•	Base Rock

Plants
•	Anubias
•	Java Fern
•	Vallisneria Spirallis

Livestock: Clean up Crew
•	Nerite Snails (5/6 Max - depends on build up)
•	Bristlenose Pleco (depends on build up)

Livestock: Shell Dwellers
•	6 Neo/Lamprologus Multifasciatus

Also i have a load of Marine Barnacles, obviously I would need to clean these up but can anyone see an issue me adding these to the tank?


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## DJRansome

How long is the tank? I would not mix substrates...especially the sizes since they tend to sift/separate. Consider 20 grain pool filter sand.

I would skip the rooted plants and just go with the anubias and/or java fern which can be attached to rocks.


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## Ratvan

DJRansome said:


> How long is the tank? I would not mix substrates...especially the sizes since they tend to sift/separate. Consider 20 grain pool filter sand.
> 
> I would skip the rooted plants and just go with the anubias and/or java fern which can be attached to rocks.


L24"xW20"xH24"


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## sir_keith

Sounds like a fine plan; you've done your homework. Good luck! :fish:


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## Ratvan

sir_keith said:


> Sounds like a fine plan; you've done your homework. Good luck! :fish:


Thank you, my main concern at the moment is the Clean up Crew, i'm also really looking forwards to running a more simple tank (no Dosing, easier lighting schedule etc)


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## DJRansome

Since the length is 24" like a 10G I would skip the pleco and just go with the nerites. Either way the shellies will not appreciate anyone on their shells.


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## Ratvan

DJRansome said:


> Since the length is 24" like a 10G I would skip the pleco and just go with the nerites. Either way the shellies will not appreciate anyone on their shells.


Why would you skip the Pleco out of interest?


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## Ratvan

Reef Tank Pre tear down, after catching the remaining Livestock ready for draining tomorrow and cleaning for next few weeks if I can get in the office


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## DJRansome

It is a small tank already, even for shellies. Brevis would be good...multifasciatus are a squeeze. Nerites less of a bioload and less likely to hang out on the bottom.


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## Fogelhund

Ratvan said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since the length is 24" like a 10G I would skip the pleco and just go with the nerites. Either way the shellies will not appreciate anyone on their shells.
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you skip the Pleco out of interest?
Click to expand...

It really isn't necessary for one. Second it will attempt to eat any fry. Third, it will regularly get attacked for doing two, perhaps losing it's eyes in the process (Yes, I've seen that).


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## Ratvan

Fair enough, so what usually keeps these shell dweller tanks clean? Regular maintenance and Nerites?


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## Deeda

To keep algae in check, wiping down the inside glass can be done using a single edge razor blade (glass tank only) or Mr. Clean Magic Eraser (no chemicals) or similar product.

Avoid over feeding so food won't accumulate on the substrate. You can also hand siphon the substrate into a white pail (to see any potential fry) and use your hand to stir up debris.


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## Ratvan

Deeda said:


> To keep algae in check, wiping down the inside glass can be done using a single edge razor blade (glass tank only) or Mr. Clean Magic Eraser (no chemicals) or similar product.
> 
> Avoid over feeding so food won't accumulate on the substrate. You can also hand siphon the substrate into a white pail (to see any potential fry) and use your hand to stir up debris.


So no real clean up crews, fair enough. Not as complicated as reef tanks but more work....
Next question, how would I protect my overflow from fry? Sponge before the weir teeth and hide with Moss?


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## Deeda

Is the overflow weir teeth at the top of the tank? If so, shouldn't be an issue as the fry stay at the bottom for a considerable amount of time when tiny. You could always cut a slit in a piece of sponge and fit it over the teeth but really doubt that is needed.


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## Ratvan

yes works as a surface skimmer at the surface, i'll just stick some moss on it to hide the ugly thing then


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## sir_keith

Ratvan said:


> ... So no real clean up crews, fair enough...


Sure you can have 'clean-up crews.' I have Nerite snails and Siamese Algae Eaters (_Crossocheilus oblongus_, also called _Crossocheilus siamensis_) in most of my Tanganyika tanks, and they do a fine job of algae control. Sure, I have to scrape the glass with a MagFloat periodically, but the SAEs and Nerites take care of the algae inside the tank, including on my plants. Good luck! :thumb:


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## Ratvan

sir_keith said:


> Ratvan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... So no real clean up crews, fair enough...
> 
> 
> 
> Sure you can have 'clean-up crews.' I have Nerite snails and Siamese Algae Eaters (_Crossocheilus oblongus_, also called _Crossocheilus siamensis_) in most of my Tanganyika tanks, and they do a fine job of algae control. Sure, I have to scrape the glass with a MagFloat periodically, but the SAEs and Nerites take care of the algae inside the tank, including on my plants. Good luck! :thumb:
Click to expand...

How do the SAE and the Cichlids get on? I know every fish is different


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## DJRansome

You are going to see mixed reviews about SAE and cichlids. sir_keith is recommending them. There were enough issues surfaced in my research for me to skip them, but it is seductive.

I have better results managing algae with light and nutrients. Especially in a 24" tank. Nerites do not seem to live their full life spans in my various African Rift Lake tanks...best I have been able to do is two years.


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## sir_keith

DJRansome said:


> You are going to see mixed reviews about SAE and cichlids. sir_keith is recommending them. There were enough issues surfaced in my research for me to skip them, but it is seductive.
> 
> I have better results managing algae with light and nutrients. Especially in a 24" tank. Nerites do not seem to live their full life spans in my various African Rift Lake tanks...best I have been able to do is two years.


Well, you know what they say-_ 'Believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear...'_ Perhaps even less of what you hear online (except for this forum, of course  ).

I tried SAEs in a couple of my Tanganyika tanks a few years ago; my main worry being whether they would be OK with the water chemistry, but they were fine. Since then, I have included 6 or more SAEs in every one of my tanks (all 4' or more), without any problems. The caveat here is that my collection does not include any large, aggressive cichlids, just various _Tropheus, Xenotilapia, Enantiopus, Ophthalmotilapia, Julidochromis,_ and _Neolamprologus_ shell dwellers. All of these cichlids completely ignore the SAEs, even full-grown featherfins.

As for the Nerites, you have to be careful who you put with whom, because once they get turned on their backs, it's over. So I put small Nerites in my grow-out tanks, and only when they get to be ~1/2 inch or so do they go in with any adult fishes. They need to be even bigger to go in a _Tropheus _tank, because these fishes are so hyperkinetic, but once the snails can resist the occasional nudge from a curious _Tropheus_, they are fine (I'm not at all sure this would work with Mbuna). I started my Nerite experiment about 5 years ago, and several of my snails are that old. I do not know what the full life span of a Nerite in captivity is supposed to be (that pesty internet '_truth_' issue again), but is five years so bad for a snail?

Bottom line- with your shellies, the Nerites will be fine. I don't think the SAEs will work in a 24" tank- there's just not enough room. For sure light and nutrients are one way to manage algae, along with an occasional swipe from a MagFloat.

There really are no hard-and-fast rules in this hobby, which is why it's so much fun. Good luck! :fish:


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## DJRansome

Congrats on the five years. I had the best luck with the Tangs...but still only one two-year-old.


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## sir_keith

DJRansome said:


> Congrats on the five years. I had the best luck with the Tangs...but still only one two-year-old.


Thank you. I should have mentioned that everything I said in my post about the Nerites refers specifically to the 'Black Racers.' I've only recently begun to experiment with some of the other Nerites (_e. g._ 'Zebras") and I have the impression that they are more sensitive. For sure the 'Black Racers' deserve their name, and perhaps they are better able to get out of the way of inquisitive cichlids. In any event, the Racers are awesome algae eaters.


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## Ratvan

Thank you all for taking the time to give me your insights. 
I should have the majority of the sand and rocks within the tank today, I am going to have some very basic plants as sand and shells only is a little too dull for me. 
I have spoken with a few French Restaurants and will be picking up some Escargot shells to clean and add shortly 
Got some branches that are currently soaking, once they're ready I will add to the tank, finish the rock work and start to add some plants.


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## DJRansome

Not too many rocks and leave the multis lots of sand around the shell colony...they like several layers.


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## Ratvan

I've got a pile of rock in one rear corner where I aim to have the majority of my plants, thinking about a Julie pair at the moment as well as the multis but stocking is still a few months off. Then have 3 largish rocks that i'll spread to break up lines of sight to the rock cave. I have a lot of sand in here so far, roughly 3" in depth all around the tank (fully expecting for it to not look it currently does)


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## Deeda

I think you will be unhappy with a 3" sand depth as the Multies are definitely sand movers and will create large mounds to bury unwanted shells and leave bare spots in the tank. I found that even with 1" sand depth, they rearrange it daily.


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## Ratvan

Deeda said:


> I think you will be unhappy with a 3" sand depth as the Multies are definitely sand movers and will create large mounds to bury unwanted shells and leave bare spots in the tank. I found that even with 1" sand depth, they rearrange it daily.


I'm used to my sandbed being rearranged. In my reefs I always have burrowing shrimp and gobies.


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## DJRansome

Ratvan said:


> I've got a pile of rock in one rear corner where I aim to have the majority of my plants, thinking about a Julie pair at the moment as well as the multis but stocking is still a few months off. Then have 3 largish rocks that i'll spread to break up lines of sight to the rock cave. I have a lot of sand in here so far, roughly 3" in depth all around the tank (fully expecting for it to not look it currently does)


The tank is already overstocked with just the multifasciatus.

For a Julidochromis pair, I would do a 30" tank minimum and even then choose a small, peaceful juli like Gombe.


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## Ratvan

Hi guys wonder if you could ID what Cichlids these are for me please? Still tank less at the moment just searching around



http://imgur.com/1rQasLx


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## DJRansome

You are considering buying them for this tank instead of the Tangs?

I see Labidochromis caeruleus and Melanochromis auratus...neither a good fit for a 24" tank, with or without the Tangs. Some other species in there too.


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## Ratvan

DJRansome said:


> You are considering buying them for the this tank instead of the Tangs?


I'm interested in the smaller two, really pretty and active. But don't know what they are, basically at the moment really bored and wanting to read up once my Cory's are done in the 4 ft tank (48x12x12)


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## DJRansome

The smaller 2 being at the bottom middle of the tank?

The yellow/black striped one is Melanochromis auratus and very aggressive, will not work in 48x12.

The peach colored one may be Metriaclima estherae, would need a better picture.

The solid yellow one is Labidochromis caeruleus. Would be good in 48x12 in a group such as 1m:4f with other species. But not Metriaclima estherae.

Is that a fish store picture? They should have the species in separate tanks, in groups, and labeled with the scientific names for each.

Lake Malawi mbuna.


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## Ratvan

DJRansome said:


> The smaller 2 being at the bottom middle of the tank?
> 
> The yellow/black striped one is Melanochromis auratus and very aggressive, will not work in 48x12.
> 
> The peach colored one may be Metriaclima estherae, would need a better picture.
> 
> The solid yellow one is Labidochromis caeruleus. Would be good in 48x12 in a group such as 1m:4f with other species. But not Metriaclima estherae.
> 
> Is that a fish store picture? They should have the species in separate tanks, in groups, and labeled with the scientific names for each.
> 
> Lake Malawi mbuna.


Yes fish store. 
Malawi Cichlids 2 for £15. Is the information avaliable


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## Deeda

Is this still the same tank in your 1st post? If so it is way too small for Malawi cichlids.

Did you decide to not get any Shelldwellers?


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## Ratvan

I don't have a tank dedicated to anything right now. The RSM is in the office which I haven't been in since March, so probably dead.

I have a 48x12x12 that has some 1 month old Cory fry in, which I can offload in the next couple of months and start a tank. Also a 24x12x12

Weighing options at the moment


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## DJRansome

When you get around to stocking the 48x12 tank, try to buy from a fish store that has the species in separate tanks and has them labeled with the scientific name.

Skip the auratus for sure. Skip the 24x12 for Malawi.


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## Ratvan

DJRansome said:


> When you get around to stocking the 48x12 tank, try to buy from a fish store that has the species in separate tanks and has them labeled with the scientific name.
> 
> Skip the auratus for sure. Skip the 24x12 for Malawi.


My only option then is eBay which I'm not comfortable buying from, have been reefing for a few years and been ripped off several times on there.

My primary LFS has closed due to Covid 19 as they cannot obtain any fish or corals so now out of business. I have a chain store (where the picture is from) and that was propably the best looking tank they had. In terms of living Livestock at least.


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## DJRansome

In the US and Canada we have reputable online vendors that have good selections and pure fish.

Not sure about Leeds, but there was another post on CF recently with people recommending online vendors in the UK.

One of my US vendors orders monthly from Germany. There are definitely high quality cichlids available in your part of the world. I would not buy via ebay either unless I personally knew the vendor.


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## Billy-the-fish

Midland Malawi's gets mentioned a lot on here. Few down South also, Tropco, Sims Aquatics to name a few, have a look at their website's.


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