# The tank that just would not cycle



## wheatbackdigger (May 11, 2008)

I've been trying to cycle my wet/dry sump in preparation for my 8' foot tank with no success. The sump is a 75 gallon glass tank. The order of media is as follow, two inch coarse Poret foam, eight gallons of bioballs (two gallons submerged), 2 inches of medium Poret coarse foam, and 4 layers of Matala from coarse to very fine.

There is approxiametely 40 gallons of water with a temp of 78 degrees. The water is being pumped with a Mag12 with 2 feet of head and two 90 degree elbows. Close to 1000 gph.

I started a fishless cycle on 1/6/10 bringing the ammonia up to 1ppm. On 1/17/10, no drop so I decided to bring it up to 2ppm. On 1/31/10, still no drop in ammonia, so I drained the sump, rinsed the media in tank water from a WC on my 150g and refilled the sump with straight tank water from the same tank. I added enough ammonia to bring it up to 3 ppm.

Pic of the sump










Pic of the ammonia










The ammonia shows no additives and passes the shake test. I believe it is the same ammonia I used to cycle my 150

So, why won't this cycle.

1) 25 days is not long enough for the ammonia to start converting
2) Sumps and wet/dry are not that effective 
3) Expensive media (Poret, Matala, Bioballs) is garbage
4) Some kind of contaminate got into the water
5) Just too high of a turnover rate for the good bacteria to take hold (25 times per hour)
6) Fill in the blank

As a side note, multiple times I squeezed sponge filters and pillow stuffing from established tanks over the past 25 days.

So, I was leaning towards 4 or maybe 5. After nearly four weeks, I changed out the water and used straight tank water from an established tank to refill. If nothing happens in the next week, I am slapping on a smaller pump and slow the turnover down to under 10 times per hour

If anyone can fill in the blank, it would be more than appreciated, running out of time, running out of patience.

Thanks
Doug


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

If your test kit is truly accurate, and I'll assume it is, then the only answer is that something is inhibiting the bacteria, as 25 days is too long to see ammonia drop. But, you knew that. You're looking for what that something is, I know.

First of all, I'd suggest that you stop changing out the water and rinsing media. I've seen large water changes cause cycling problems in new tanks. Rinsing the media didn't help either, even if it was in tank water. I think at least part of your problem may be right there. New bacteria is different in some ways than bacteria in an established tank. It seems more fragile and I believe it has to do with the fact that the biofilm in which it lives has not had time to build up enough to provide defense against certain things. Every time you tinker with it, it's probably killing off bacteria. Best to let cycling tanks alone. Treat them as delicate, living things. Later when the tank is established, the biofilter seems to be able to tolerate more.

Also stop beefing up the ammonia. You can't force bacteria to convert ammonia by pushing more ammonia on them. Any level is enough to 'cycle'. Won't hurt, but you can't 'hammer' bacteria into responding.

--GPH is not detrimental.

--Media used doesn't matter as bacteria will colonize any surface with good water flow.

--Sumps and wet/dry's are *very *effective, so that's not your problem.

As long as there's nothing in the way of an anti-bacterial product in the system, it has to cycle eventually. Some kind of contaminant is a possiblity if it's killing off the bacteria. Review all steps you took in getting the tank ready. Did you use any cleaners anywhere on the tank or filter, etc?


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## Zypherius (Feb 14, 2006)

Are you certain no chlorine is getting into your water?


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## Shorty5198 (May 10, 2005)

dont change any media! dont touch the sump! if you want your tank to cycle you need to start getting lots of bacteria in the sump and the only place for it to colonize is in the pads, ceramics, etc. throw some mollys in there and have them dirty the **** out of the sump, thats what carbon and whatnot is for. take them out after a week or so and let the sump cycle, you should see spike in ammonia, then nitrite, and finally nitrate, then you are ready


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## Shorty5198 (May 10, 2005)

and stop pouring ammonia in your sump! a simple goldfish/molly will accomplish the same thing and with no chemicals! part of your problem may be the actual ammonia your adding, im no chemist but i've worked at a lfs for several years now and every tank we set up we just add fish slowly. Why exactly are you trying to have your sump cycled? if you plan on using it in a larger aquarium you need to realize that the bacteria that is built up for the sump will not be all of the bacteria in your tank. I would just set your tank up and throw just a couple fish in there to slowly get the cycle started for your whole system, rather than relying on your sump having enough bacteria to handle right off the bat the 40-100-whatever gallons when you plan on adding livestock, because you could run into the same problem when linking it to the main tank if the bacteria cannot catch up to the waste output of the fish. Lots of the benificial bacteria will colonize in the gravel of the tank. Just tryin to throw ya some ideas good luck! I know cycling problems blow


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## kitana8 (Jan 20, 2010)

Shorty5198 said:


> and stop pouring ammonia in your sump! a simple goldfish/molly will accomplish the same thing and with no chemicals!


That's exactly the point of a fishless cycle, not torturing a fish with ammonia and nitrites spikes...


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Gotta agree with shorty on this one. If the new way fails to work, try the old way. Millions of fish survived quite well before tank cycles became popular. Just set it up and add the fish over a longer period rather than all at once. As far as harming the fish, I would consider it necessary and go on. Most of us do eat a fish sandwich at some time and feel quite good about it. :lol:


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## Shorty5198 (May 10, 2005)

I would hardly consider it torture by any means especially if you do it right and add fish slowly to allow the bacteria to stay caught up with animal waste. The first fish I put in my 75 after 3 days of being set up was a $90 sunshine peacock, and added one fish a week from there on, never experiencing any spikes in ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate that were near fatal levels.


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## Shorty5198 (May 10, 2005)

and especially in a 150 gallon, it seems kinda pointless to take this route, unless you plan on adding 20 cichlids at once


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## wheatbackdigger (May 11, 2008)

Shorty5198 said:


> and especially in a 150 gallon, it seems kinda pointless to take this route, unless you plan on adding 20 cichlids at once


The sump will be for a 350 gallon tank. I am currently growing fish out in several tanks and will be combining them. The bioload of a couple of goldfish won't cut it. I am looking at fish greater than 12 inches plus my colony of 9 subadult Frontosas.

I appreciate the input, but I plan on sticking with the fishless cycle. I do need the big bioload.


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## wheatbackdigger (May 11, 2008)

prov356 said:


> If your test kit is truly accurate, and I'll assume it is, then the only answer is that something is inhibiting the bacteria, as 25 days is too long to see ammonia drop. But, you knew that. You're looking for what that something is, I know.
> 
> First of all, I'd suggest that you stop changing out the water and rinsing media. I've seen large water changes cause cycling problems in new tanks. Rinsing the media didn't help either, even if it was in tank water. I think at least part of your problem may be right there. New bacteria is different in some ways than bacteria in an established tank. It seems more fragile and I believe it has to do with the fact that the biofilm in which it lives has not had time to build up enough to provide defense against certain things. Every time you tinker with it, it's probably killing off bacteria. Best to let cycling tanks alone. Treat them as delicate, living things. Later when the tank is established, the biofilter seems to be able to tolerate more.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input Prov. I tested 6 other tanks this weekend and the test kit is just fine. The tank was brand new and I used GE Silicone I for the baffles. I let the silicone set for a week before adding water for the cycle. The Weldon4 for the acrylic also set for a week before adding water. No other chemicals were introduced before the beginning of the cycle. I did lay the silicone on thick in the bottom corners of the baffles. Maybe the silicone hadn't quite set and was inhibiting the bacteria growth, the biggest reason I changed out the water


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Maybe the silicone hadn't quite set and was inhibiting the bacteria growth, the biggest reason I changed out the water


It's probably going to be something like the silicone that turns out to be the cause. There's little else to blame. It takes a lot for a tank to not cycle. Frustrating, I know, but giving it more time is probably the best option right now. The weldon wouldn't be a problem. It evaporates within minutes leaving melted acrylic to fuse back together. Ammonia should drop within the first 10-14 days. If it still refuses to drop, then I think I'd do another full drain and complete rinse. Double check the silicone maybe and even contact GE, but I'm assuming you're using the same silicone I've heard others recommend here on the forum.

Kudos to you for going with and staying fishless. It's the best way to go for a lot of reasons. Ammonia is ammonia whether it be from fish or from a bottle. Cycling with fish won't get it done any faster. I wish the local shops in this country would adopt this method instead of sending fish home to subject them to harmful levels of ammonia and nitrite. Ammonia and nitrite can and will do long term damage fish, even if they survive the experience. Putting aside the affects on the fish, fishless cycling is also the best way to fully stock with cichlids that are territorial and aggressive by nature. All fish enter the tank on equal ground. The idea that fishless cycling is causing your tank not to cycle is simply untrue. And I used to do things the old way too decades ago. I would never go back to that any more than I'd drop an undergravel filter in my tank.  Yes, I used to use those in all of my tanks at one time.


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## wheatbackdigger (May 11, 2008)

Maybe the PVC glue? I forgot about that. I only let that set for 15-20 minutes. Anyone think that may have been the problem?


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## bmweiler09 (Nov 17, 2009)

Why not add material from an existing filter to jump start things?


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## grommeckdr (Jan 18, 2010)

prov356 said:


> I would never go back to that any more than I'd drop an undergravel filter in my tank.  Yes, I used to use those in all of my tanks at one time.


prov, as you know, I'm new to this. Educate me on why UGF's are no good... I just bought a used 20 gallon (for quarantine, fry, child education, etc.) to go with my new (used) 125 gallon. It came with an UGF (plus a HOB) that I now have up and running. Should I not use it?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> prov, as you know, I'm new to this. Educate me on why UGF's are no good... I just bought a used 20 gallon (for quarantine, fry, child education, etc.) to go with my new (used) 125 gallon. It came with an UGF (plus a HOB) that I now have up and running. Should I not use it?


They're not the best solution for filtration, at least when run normal flow, as they retain mulm under the plate which can put you in a battle to keep KH (buffers) and pH up. Also adds to the organic load because you have that constant load breaking down, but it builds faster than it breaks down. If you run one for a couple of years then tear down and see what's underneath you'll see what I mean. They can work, but just not the best solution, particulary for rift lake cichlids that like nice, clean water. If you have one, then I'd suggest setting it up for reverse flow with sponges on the intakes of power heads. They should work great for a long time that way. They also won't work with sand, and many/most african cichild tanks are set up with sand.

As to whether or not you should use it, for your situation and the intended use of the tank, it'll be perfectly fine. Just vacuum the gravel faithfully, and it'll provide you and the kids a lot of enjoyement for a long time. Like any filter, it can get really nasty if neglected. You can't neglect a UGF and get away with it for very long.

The point I was just trying to make was that even an old dog like me can adopt new tricks. Some of the stuff out there now is faddish (no, I won't list them  ), but fishless cycling isn't one of them. It's a good skill to learn and once learned and understood, will work very well for you. The situation the OP has run into is a rare one. And again, if the tank won't cycle with ammonia from a bottle, it's not going to cycle with ammonia from a fish. There is not difference, except to the fish.


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## grommeckdr (Jan 18, 2010)

Makes sense... I might just take it out, since the HOB that also came with it should be adequate. Plus, the pump that came with it is rather loud, and the wife isn't too impressed...


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## cbbub (Dec 27, 2009)

I just finished a fishless cyle a month ago. It took 21 days for a 55 gallon. It was very frustrating, at almost every point I was sure I was doing it wrong, but in the end it worked, I added A LOT of fish, and never had a problem, no ammonia/nitrite/nitrate problems AT ALL. Some points...

-Once you get the ammonia to where you want it, don't add anymore until you see nitrites.
-You definitely need to seed the tank, in your case since its a sump and not the actual tank, you cant use gravel/plants/etc from existing tank. It would be best if you could get mulm (decomposed fish waste) or a good "squeeze" from a filter sponge or pad. No doubt you need to "jump start"
-As long as you wait for the ammonia to go down, your nitrite spike will be twice as long. For me, that was the most frustrating part was waiting for the second stage of bacteria to grow. These bacteria are slower growing. 
-Temperature helps, I would keep that water between 84-90 degrees.
-Don't bother with the store bought bacteria products, they don't work.

Don't listen to everybody telling you to throw in the towel. Stick with it and you will get there!


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

Probably not the problem, but does your tap water have chloramines and did you use a dechlor product?

I imagine over time you would have to top off the tank due to evaporation. If you have chloramines and didn't treat for them the concentration would continue to grow because the chloramines don't evaporate out.

Are you getting good surface agitation? You seem to have it set up close looped so its possible the oxygen content is low which could slow bacteria growth.

Temperatures too hot or too cold?

Just brainstorming possibilities.


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## scdeb424 (Apr 24, 2008)

The silicon I used (Dap for aquariums) took days longer than I thought it would when I used it inside the aquarium close to the bottom. The vinegar smell kept lingering even when I used the ceiling fan to keep the air circulating. I'm not sure what the ingredients are but that smell is vinegar. Vinegar neutralizes ammonia--could this be part of your problem? Also how old is your ammonia? Once the bottle is open the contents will change. Did it get left open or was it used by anyone else? Maybe you just need a new bottle?
If you are worried about still drying silicon or glue it probably would be safer to start over--surely it is all dried by now. The water, of course would be contaminated and would need to be discarded.
Also could you add a mesh bag of substrate from one of your tanks? Or perhaps instead of squeezing out the water etc. from the filter medium sandwich the whole thing between those layers in your photo.
Will all you'd have to lose I understand why you are so worried about this.


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## wheatbackdigger (May 11, 2008)

I think the tank is finally starting to cycle. Ammonia dropped from 3ppm to 1ppm and to my suprise I had a reading of 1ppm on the nitrites. I really don't know what was taking so long, but a week after the 100% water change seem to work. I still think there was something in the water inhibitting the growth of the bacteria. Just seems odd that I have 1ppm nitrites so quickly.

Should I add more ammonia or wait until it has completely converted?


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

wheatbackdigger said:


> I think the tank is finally starting to cycle. Ammonia dropped from 3ppm to 1ppm and to my suprise I had a reading of 1ppm on the nitrites. I really don't know what was taking so long, but a week after the 100% water change seem to work. I still think there was something in the water inhibitting the growth of the bacteria. Just seems odd that I have 1ppm nitrites so quickly.
> 
> Should I add more ammonia or wait until it has completely converted?


As long as there is ammonia in the water, there is food for the bacteria, so I wouldn't add any just yet. When I cycled my 55g, I went from 2ppm ammonia and 0ppm nitrite to 0ppm ammonia and off the charts nitrite overnight. idk why, but once the switch happens, it seems to happen pretty quickly.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Should I add more ammonia or wait until it has completely converted?


Wait until it goes to 0. Should be 0 by tomorrow. From that point, it should read by 0 every time you test assuming you're testing every 24 hours. You could then add it every other day going forward to avoid building too much nitrite and eventuall nitrate. Either that, or do daily water change, but not too massive, to keep the nitrite under control.

Glad it's finally working for you. It had to be some inhibitor in the water, I'd agree.


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## aspen (Jun 15, 2004)

i would add more ammonia once every week. i have done so and kept a cycle going for a couple of months, just to see.

it would seem there is something in that tank that inhibited nit bacteria growth. that would give me pause before i added my prized cichlids all at once. do the fish in the 150 that you got the water from show any redness at the gills, or scratching? maybe you have chloramines and are not treating for them properly? if you find ammonia in your tapwater, this may indicate chloramines.

i added 60 baby discus, smaller than dime sized, to a tank i'd fishless cycled, and it went a whole lot better than waiting for the tank to cycle. i didn't lose 1 fish. people can say what they want against fishless cycling, but i'm absolutely sure it has saved me many fish. you are right to do what you're doing. btw, the tank for the discus would cycle 5 ml ammonia per day, and the change went without a hitch.

i think that you have something going on there, and you should find out what it is.

good luck, rick


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## wheatbackdigger (May 11, 2008)

The fishless cycle finally is on its way, converting 2-3ppm ammonia over a 24hr period. Nitrites are at a steady 1ppm. I honestly believe that my silicon had not fully cured, causing some sort of disturbance. After the 100% water change, things are running like clockwork.

Thanks for any advice

Now, to find a 360gallon acrylic tank.


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