# Thoughts on my overstocked mixed cichlid 55 gallon?



## juhason (Nov 10, 2013)

*** I DID NOT PURCHASE ALL THESE FISH YET ***

I was wondering if overstocking CA/SA cichlids works in a similar way as African Cichlids for curbing aggression?

What is already in the tank: 
3" Female Convict (Queen of the tank)
2.5" Salvini (Possibly female but I'm not certain)
2.5" Jewel Cichlid (most likely male, also yes... I know he's not CA or SA) 
2.5" Opaline Gourami (Actually really chill fish and surprisingly, the convict who terrorizes anything that moves does not care about him at all... sometimes even gets along with him. No one else cares about him either... again I know, not CA/SA)
2" Clown Pleco
2" Bristlenose Pleco

Right now things are a bit unstable, but no ripped fins or cowering fish. Things are working out for the time being. But I know as they grow things can change quickly. So here's ideas on other fish to add if the overstocking idea works (just throwing out ideas, not suggesting I get all the fish I'm listing): 
1 Jack Dempsey
1 Severum (I'm confused on this one, I see some people have them in tanks with CA cichlids but are they aggressive enough?) 
1 Green Sunfish (I just love native fish and would love to see them in my tank... Greens are tough) 
1 Pumpkinseed (again native)

I have two HOB filters rated for 75 gallons each and one powerfilter rated for 40 gallons. Right now I'm changing 20% of the water weekly since I am in school and working and it's working well since they are still pretty small. I can up the water changes as they grow.

Anyways, thoughts? Suggestions?

Just no hate please! I do my research but I also like pushing my limits  I take very good care of my pets once I get them! I promise! And please remember, I don't actually own all these fish yet...


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I could pick it apart but I won't since you asked so nicely and also admitted you know that you're doing wrong. Just curious why you would want advice from any of us if you're not worried about "limits" and what would normally be considered responsible fish keeping... Anyhow, I've kept sunfish in the past and a 55 gallon is much too small for them. Plus they will eventually eat anything they can remotely fit in their mouth or tear it up until it does. I've seen them gang up on largemouth bass actually... No hate but the reason why people don't mix fish from different continents and/or lakes, rivers etc, is the fact that they all require different diets and water parameters to live out a normal, healthy life. But of course you know that because you've done your research right....


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## dalto (Aug 20, 2006)

juhason said:


> I was wondering if overstocking CA/SA cichlids works in a similar way as African Cichlids for curbing aggression?


Nope. It may work for a time but it rarely works long-term.



juhason said:


> What is already in the tank:
> 3" Female Convict (Queen of the tank)
> 2.5" Salvini (Possibly female but I'm not certain)
> 2.5" Jewel Cichlid (most likely male, also yes... I know he's not CA or SA)
> ...


This isn't the worse thing I have ever seen 

Jewel cichlids are often pretty timid when kept as lone fish. They usually don't become territorial unless there are multiple males or they pair up.
I have never kept a lone convict so I can't speak to that.



juhason said:


> Right now things are a bit unstable, but no ripped fins or cowering fish. Things are working out for the time being. But I know as they grow things can change quickly. So here's ideas on other fish to add if the overstocking idea works (just throwing out ideas, not suggesting I get all the fish I'm listing):
> 1 Jack Dempsey
> 1 Severum (I'm confused on this one, I see some people have them in tanks with CA cichlids but are they aggressive enough?)
> 1 Green Sunfish (I just love native fish and would love to see them in my tank... Greens are tough)
> 1 Pumpkinseed (again native)


I have never kept the native fishes but I wouldn't add either the JD or the Severum to the mix.



juhason said:


> Anyways, thoughts? Suggestions?


How about adding some dither fish instead of more cichlids?


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## juhason (Nov 10, 2013)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> I could pick it apart but I won't since you asked so nicely and also admitted you know that you're doing wrong. Just curious why you would want advice from any of us if you're not worried about "limits" and what would normally be considered responsible fish keeping... Anyhow, I've kept sunfish in the past and a 55 gallon is much too small for them. Plus they will eventually eat anything they can remotely fit in their mouth or tear it up until it does. I've seen them gang up on largemouth bass actually... No hate but the reason why people don't mix fish from different continents and/or lakes, rivers etc, is the fact that they all require different diets and water parameters to live out a normal, healthy life. But of course you know that because you've done your research right....


I realize what this post sounds like now that I am reading it without my initial excitement when I first had the idea, so allow me to explain myself further.

First off, my current setup is the result of me taking in a friend's unwanted fish (Gourami and Jewel), he was just going to euthanize them since they were not wanted anymore. He didn't wan't to deal with finding them a new home so I thought I would house them and find a home for them. But now that I have them I really like them and would love to be able to keep them. Things are working for now so at least I can keep them for the time being. But that is what sparked my idea, I would love to keep the gourami and jewel for as long as they live if I can. I know that overstocking Africans work, and I remembered in my high school science class they had a tank super overstocked with convicts, yet there was no turmoil. So that's when I decided to research it. I found quite a few posts discussing people's success with this, and one in particular from the Monster Fish Keepers forum. The post had about 5-6 pages of different people stating that they are currently doing this and it is working. So my main reason for posing the question here was that I wanted more opinions on it before I attempted it. I am prepared for separating or rehoming fish, I know the risks.

Now that brings me to Sunfish. These are my absolute favorite fish, I know just about everything there is to know about them: diet, water parameters, temperament, sizes, habitat, hybrids, etc. I added these to list more in terms of bioload rather than compatibility. I know the CA cichlids can handle their aggression (of course some fish are just meaner than others so I know it's still trial and error). Sunfish come from a huge range of water parameters and can handle subfreezing to 80 degrees (at least the ones that I mentioned, there are some that can't). Their diets are not that different or their behavior and I even asked if I can mix them with CA cichlids on a forum solely dedicated to native fish with HUNDREDS of articles and threads going in depth on their care and breeding, and was told that it would be fine.

So my main questions are: Do you think this could work... at all? I am prepared to remove fish if things don't work but is there a reason I shouldn't try at all? Do the fish I mentioned stay a small enough size to live their full happy lives in a 55 gallon? And would the bioload just be way too much to handle?


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## juhason (Nov 10, 2013)

dalto said:


> juhason said:
> 
> 
> > What is already in the tank:
> ...


Yeah, the Jewel and Gourami were taken in as to not be euthanized by someone I know, originally it was just the convict and salvini. They really grew on me though so I am hoping things work and I can keep them. Anyways thanks for the help! What is the reason you wouldn't add a JD or Severum? I will look into some good dithers for Ca cichlids as well, thanks!


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

The real issue here is the 48x12" footprint.

I've kept sunfish before, with aquatic turtles. The Green is tough. A brute, with a mouth closer to a bass than a sunnie. The Salvini will soon grow/mature and cause problems. You're already seeing that with the Con.

If keeping with the original fish adopted, I would work around those. Rehome the Con and Sal. Try a lone severum, and add some larger tetras. Decorate the tank with wood and rocks to provide safe havens and line of sight breaks.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

juhason said:


> 2.5" Salvini (Possibly female but I'm not certain)


Your 1st order of business is to determine whether or not you have a male or female. Sals are easily sexed as the the females possess a dorsal blotch/spot (or the 1st half of the dorsal is very dark ). Post a pic if your not too sure. IMO and IME, a large male salvini does not mix well with other CA, even in 6 ft, tanks. Based on my experience with lone female sals, if I were to rank it on an aggression scale I'd put it a notch or two below a male convict. Huge difference, dependent on whether you have a male or female.
If you have a male salvini, I suggest you swap it out for something else. 


juhason said:


> I was wondering if overstocking CA/SA cichlids works in a similar way as African Cichlids for curbing aggression?


It is the exact same principle in any cichlid community tank. You need sufficient tank mates to disperse aggression. You need enough going on in the tank so that fish don't focus so much on particular tank mates. Only 3 cichlids would be considered severely understocked for a Malawi cichlid tank. And for the aggressive cichlids you are keeping, IMO it is understocked.
Of coarse the numbers required to make a workable cichlid community can vary dependent on the type of cichlids. The numbers required are typically higher with malawi cichlids because they are very active and highly aggressive. But really, the very high numbers of fish in some Malawi tanks have more to do with people liking a lot of fish in their tank then having just the sufficient number to disperse aggression. IMO, most Malawi tanks could probably accomplish a workable community with less then 1/2 the fish. 
In your case, IMO, your aggression problems stem from having only 3 cichlids. 4 would be a bare minimum to have any long term decent chance .......and really 5 or more would make a lot more sense.


juhason said:


> 1 Jack Dempsey
> 1 Severum (I'm confused on this one, I see some people have them in tanks with CA cichlids but are they aggressive enough?)
> 1 Green Sunfish (I just love native fish and would love to see them in my tank... Greens are tough)
> 1 Pumpkinseed (again native)


The sunfish i don't think are a great idea in 55 gal. Never owned one and know very little about them but my understanding is that when they are successfully mixed with aggressive cichlids it's in big tanks, not 55 gal.
JD maybe. But in a 55 I see it as an either/or with salvini. Your female con is boss right now and might remain so for some time, but even a female sal will rise above it eventually, simply by virtue of its size( full grown a female sal is a little longer and heavier then a male convict). JD would definitely be another in contention for boss of the tank and CA can be awfully competitive amongst each other. 
Severum, maybe. It get's a little large for a 55 so that may be a reason not to consider it. As a young fish, could get picked on, but as an adult it's usually tough enough to "hang" with your stock. And if it becomes boss of the tank, in that position they are usually more mild mannered then a CA cichlid would be.
I'd try to look more at smaller and/or less aggressive. Blue acara might be an option (or electric blue acara). They can get quite large, 7"+ but are usually more mild mannered then any of the cichlids on your stock list (or those listed that you are considering). A belly crawler pike or some of the saxalitis-type pikes would probably do fine. A male kribensis could be an option. I'd also consider a single demasoni, though I would think most others wouldn't like that idea.
Your gourami will sort of 1/2 "count" in the cichlid pecking order...so don't count it in terms of the minimum number of cichlids required for your tank. Schooling dithers are an option but they won't 'count' at all in terms of the cichlid pecking order. They can sort of be bodies in the way and help with activity, but they don't work as target fish to disperse cichlid aggression. IMO, giant danios are probably the safest bet but there are other options (and there is some risk as it is certainly possible for large female sals to eat even good sized giant danios, though I would suppose in many cases probably not). Especially as large adults, salvini and jewel cichlid often need a busy tank to feel comfortable; the con and gourami might fulfill the dither role though a good chance for a jewel or sal it's not quite enough.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Same here Iggy, I kept bluegill and greenies with a painted turtle.


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## juhason (Nov 10, 2013)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> The real issue here is the 48x12" footprint.
> 
> I've kept sunfish before, with aquatic turtles. The Green is tough. A brute, with a mouth closer to a bass than a sunnie. The Salvini will soon grow/mature and cause problems. You're already seeing that with the Con.
> 
> If keeping with the original fish adopted, I would work around those. Rehome the Con and Sal. Try a lone severum, and add some larger tetras. Decorate the tank with wood and rocks to provide safe havens and line of sight breaks.


I might be a but attached to my original fish too  Although if I had to choose between the two I'd chose the con.


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## juhason (Nov 10, 2013)

BC in SK said:


> juhason said:
> 
> 
> > 2.5" Salvini (Possibly female but I'm not certain)
> ...


Thank you VERY MUCH for this reply! And I don't mean because you're saying what I want to hear, but because you gave me lots of information and have the experience to back you up. Exactly what I'm looking for!

Does the Salvini develop the blotch as it grows up a bit or is it there pretty early on? I'm kind of reaching here because I would love to keep my salvini but if the latter is true, I have a male. The reason I thought I might have a female is because some red splotches are developing on the belly and I thought that was more of a female thing for salvinis.

For the sunfish, what would you think on the Western Dollar Sunfish? These guys are known to be horrid but they don't get bigger than 5" so I'm thinking the smaller size might make them ok? The only thing is their coloration is a bit too similar to the Jewel and I would want variety, but its not a deal breaker. I know you said you don't know much about sunfish but just what your opinion would be based on that information.

Also I'm totally considering the demasoni but I am going to look into this... How does 6-7 cichlids plus the gourami, plecos and 6 buenos aires tetras sound?


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

juhason said:


> Does the Salvini develop the blotch as it grows up a bit or is it there pretty early on?


It's usually there pretty early on. For example, those for sale at an LFS at the 2" to 2 1/2" range usually show it already. Just to give you a better idea what the dorsal spot/blotch looks like:https://www.google.ca/search?q=fema...nsjVAhUL9IMKHVXMAQgQ_AUICigB&biw=1600&bih=770
Top row left to right: Female, male on left female on right, female, female, male, female
2nd row left to right: female, male, female, female , female, male on top female on bottom
3rd row left to right: male, probably male, female, likely male, not sure, female, male.
Now the order of pictures on google will change over time, so these are only correct for the moment.
If you do get rid of the sal, another CA alternative could be Nicaraguan cichlid. Again, a female is a better choice, not so much because the male is more aggressive but because the males get considerably larger, up to 10" eventually.


juhason said:


> For the sunfish, what would you think on the Western Dollar Sunfish? These guys are known to be horrid but they don't get bigger than 5" so I'm thinking the smaller size might make them ok? The only thing is their coloration is a bit too similar to the Jewel and I would want variety, but its not a deal breaker. I know you said you don't know much about sunfish but just what your opinion would be based on that information.


I'm definitely not the person to ask about sunfish as I have never owned one and really don't know that much about them. From the little I have read about them I understand there aggression can be on par with CA cichlids (?) and the few examples that i read of people having any long term success mixing them with CA was in 6-8 ft tanks or larger.


juhason said:


> How does 6-7 cichlids plus the gourami, plecos and 6 buenos aires tetras sound?


I think it has way better odds of working out over the long term then just 3 cichlids in the tank.


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## juhason (Nov 10, 2013)

BC in SK said:


> juhason said:
> 
> 
> > Does the Salvini develop the blotch as it grows up a bit or is it there pretty early on?
> ...


Fantastic! Thanks for the advice. Also I love the look of the Nicaraguan, I will definitely try to find one of those! The salvini is a male unfortunately and will have to go.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Stocking is a subject where I often disagree with the majority. The idea that keeping cichlids, especially African, requires overstocking just flies against what I see in nature. I grew up in farm country and looked at lots of different animals and there is one certain fact that is obvious when dealing with horses, cows, chickens, ducks, deer, or people. Crowding them is one certain way to have trouble! 
Who lives more peaceful lives and prospers far better? Two guys who live a half mile apart or a building with too many tenants and too little space? Where is life better? In the crowded ghetto or out in the suburbs? 
Even chickens will find one weak one and peck it to death if there are too many in the hen house, so why would we feel fish will behave any differently? Putting too many fish in a tank is one sure way for dealers to sell more fish and then more meds and fish to repair/replace the fish who suffer!!! 
Find which fish needs what sort of space to live a more normal life and watch them prosper! 
Second step is to provide compatible roommates for that space. 
The tattooed thugs should not be put in a tank with the nice little girls from upscale! 
From there, I have little qualms about putting fish together for some time to see if it works. Many of my tanks do not fit the norm for what I read but I also have plans in mind to deal with mistakes I make. I do not mistreat my fish but I also do not pass on opportunities to keep fish which really interest me as long as I am prepped to deal with any problems which show up as they mature. 
I am not married to my fish so treat them very much like I might a roommate. I try it and if it works, great. But if not, the fish is moved . I would agree with the other posts that the odds of your group working are really small but then, it never hurts me to change things when I see it doesn't work. I see the choices this way. If you don't try anything bold, you will have failed 100% of the time. If you try , you may succeed 10,20, 50% of the time and be a really winner as you will definitely learn more through taking some risks. 
opcorn:


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

PfunMo said:


> horses, cows, chickens, ducks, deer, or people.


I think this is a whole lot of irrelevant nonsense. Nothing to do with keeping fish in a glass cage.
'Overstocking' and 'understocking' are vague and relative terms. Even your own tanks, Pfunmo, could be seen by somebody as "overstocked".
I count 25 cichlids in your 125 gal. (plus what is outside of the picture or behind plants).
Six _Protemelas insignis_ in a 75 gal. Double the number of cichlids listed in the original post of this thread.
Two pairs of rainbow cichlids in a tank.....still heavier stocked then the OP :lol: And that is one of the few CA cichlids where small numbers have decent chance of working!
Numbers are not irrelevant. The numbers of cichlids can change the dynamics of a tank completely. In general, the more aggressive the cichlid, the larger numbers required. 
Often, the advice on this forum is 2-3 aggressive CA. Essentially a recipe for a 'wet pet'. IMO, such advice either comes from a lack of experience or a lack of common sense.
In the real world, people having success with aggressive cichlids are not stocking this way. 
I came to this forum in 2007 and participated and argued in many stocking threads.
Just one of many examples, 5 cichlids in a 90 gal. is called way 'over stocked'. The biggest, baddest fish being considered was a severum. In the minds of the people I argued with, there was no room in the tank for more then 2-3. When these same people show their own tanks, none of them stock their own tanks like they recommend(or they keep 'wet pets'). An example of one who was very conservative in his recommendations that I often argued with, had around 30 cichlids in his 125 gal. with Jack Dempsey as his most aggressive fish. Given the aggression level of the cichlids, could have easily had a workable community with 5-10 cichlids!
I think it is a good thought experiment to list every fish you have in your tanks and consider the numbers of cichlids that you have generally kept in these tanks. And the number of years, very low numbers of aggressive cichlids (like 2-3) have co-existed well together. Of course there are always exceptions, many variables and no real way of predicting the future but I think the very low numbers of cichlids that have been recommended on this forum is one reason why there are not a whole lot of success stories in the CA section on this site. Small numbers may not even get you through the short term. People keep CA for a little while, have aggression problems and then move on to something else.


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