# Male EBJD x Female Gold JD spawn w/pics



## jefejt (Mar 10, 2005)

I witnessed my big male EBJD and my gold JD lay some eggs. I'm pretty excited and hoping they'll develop. I have been unsuccessful with my first batches of BG x BG. Right now they are in a 75 and I dropped in a separator giving them 2/3 of the tank to themselves. I picked up a brine shrimp hatchery today so hopefully they'll appreciate some live BBS. The pictures aren't the best, but you can see the parents. Any suggestions would be great.

Gold Female and eggs









Eggs









Male EBJD (Pictures don't do him justice)
Nice reflection shot


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128 (Mar 22, 2006)

WOW!! AWESOME!!!    :thumb:

Congrats dude! :dancing: :drooling:


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## Nathan43 (Jul 9, 2007)

Awesome, I would love to see how the spawn turn out :thumb:


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## Pwnage (May 11, 2008)

Very nice!!! Can I ask you where you picked up the gold? *** been searching everywhere....


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Congratts man...

Mixing Blues & Golds will either be a complicated way to get what we already have access to, or will bare a whole new color variety...

For your benefit let's hope for the latter ...

For General Information:

I believe he got his Gold Dempseys from Jeff Rapps... To my knowledge all Gold Dempseys in the US come from the same source or are offspring (inbred) of that source. So it's good to ask where a supplier got their stock, if they say they bred them they are either lying or selling inbred offspring... I recommend Rapps or Ken Davis as suppliers, although West coast customers may want to look for a West coast supplier to save on shipping.

Blue x Gold has been spawned once before (only once to my knowledge, maybe more) and this proved all the fry to be 'normal looking' although no further research was made to determine recessive genes in the fry.


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## Pwnage (May 11, 2008)

Thanks for the info- sent him an email and hopefully I can get an order in first thing Monday morning.

 (sorry to hi-jack your thread)


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## Big Vine (Feb 26, 2007)

Congrats on the spawn...got any updates for us? :fish: 
BV


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## jefejt (Mar 10, 2005)

Eggs are all gone. We'll try again soon.


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## AU Chief (Jun 20, 2007)

Apparently someone else has done this. It results in all regular JD's, and the person didn't know what kind of genes they carried, as they didn't breed any of the offspring.

http://dempsey.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=94


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## MacFish (Jan 4, 2006)

> Apparently someone else has done this.


That someone else is 4 posts above yours  nc_nutcase aka Toby_H


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

:dancing: Yup, it was me 

I've actually talked to jefejt (JT)... we may both breed and raise out a spawn. This was if they do produce any interesting finds we will have unrelated fish to further explore with...

~Toby


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## auratum (Jul 6, 2006)

Don't leave me out man... My female gold is growing nicely and acting like a pair with my dominant Hollywood EBJD. Got my fingers crossed that something good will happen soon. I am more optimistic than Toby that this endeavor will yield something interesting in the second generation :thumb:


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## Frameshift (Sep 12, 2003)

Just throwing this out there...

If anyone gets sellable fry from gold X EBJD let me know. I think interesting things could be done in the second generation.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

auratum, I didn't mean to leave you out man!!

I believe JT (jefejt) is also using a Blue from Hollywood. My Blue is from Rapps... and all the Golds are from a single source...

Conveniently... My parents live just outside of Detroit and I simply love Chicago... So I visit Michigan once or twice a year and Chicago every year or two... so we should be able to pull off a swap rather easily...

As I said elsewhere... I would assume there won't be anything new being formed in this cross but I'm not going to be limited by my assumptions... I hope I'm wrong...


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## auratum (Jul 6, 2006)

nc_nutcase said:


> As I said elsewhere... I would assume there won't be anything new being formed in this cross but I'm not going to be limited by my assumptions... I hope I'm wrong...


Me too! :thumb:


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## DirtyBlackSocks (Jan 24, 2008)

Don't just throw the spawn out, probably some recessive's left to be unlocked with a little bit of work in them...


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

When I had my first Gold x Blue spawn I thought about exploring with themâ€¦ but to be honest I saw the complex potential and felt it would take more time, patience and space than I was willing to offer them at the timeâ€¦

With every fish in the brood looking the same (look like Regular Dempseys), each fish would have to be spawned with a Blue Dempsey AND a Gold Dempsey to identify itâ€™s recessive genesâ€¦ IF there is a new recessive morph in that mix I would suspect it would be a small percentage of the overall brood. Therefore this may prove an extensively long process to identify them.

I personally feel I have my hands full just trying to keep my Blue lines organized (to prevent inbreeding), and on top of that Iâ€™ve decided to make Gold Gene Dempseys in attempts to produce Golds that are not offspring of siblings (all Golds come from a single source). So to add to that a thousand young I need to pair of with two different fish (one Blue and one Gold) sounds like a more involved process than Iâ€™m currently ready forâ€¦

But at the same timeâ€¦ if it has anything to do with a Dempsey then Iâ€™m curious and willing to at least be part of a small group sharing the workâ€¦ The worse thing that can happen is we have fun raising/breeding fish that do not generate incomeâ€¦ well thatâ€™s what fish keeping has been for me for almost 20 years


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## Frameshift (Sep 12, 2003)

nc_nutcase said:


> When I had my first Gold x Blue spawn I thought about exploring with themâ€¦ but to be honest I saw the complex potential and felt it would take more time, patience and space than I was willing to offer them at the timeâ€¦
> 
> With every fish in the brood looking the same (look like Regular Dempseys), each fish would have to be spawned with a Blue Dempsey AND a Gold Dempsey to identify itâ€™s recessive genesâ€¦ IF there is a new recessive morph in that mix I would suspect it would be a small percentage of the overall brood. Therefore this may prove an extensively long process to identify them.
> 
> ...


You wouldn't have to do all those crosses...just cross the offspring with each other as they'd all be heterozygous so you'd get all the homozygous recessive traits on the F2 generation. Granted, it might be tough to isolate special fry in the F2 generation, as it would be a small percentage (1/16 of the fry), but still quite possible.


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## auratum (Jul 6, 2006)

Frameshift said:


> You wouldn't have to do all those crosses...just cross the offspring with each other as they'd all be heterozygous so you'd get all the homozygous recessive traits on the F2 generation. Granted, it might be tough to isolate special fry in the F2 generation, as it would be a small percentage (1/16 of the fry), but still quite possible.


Exactly! :thumb:

And if you cross the F1's (Gold x Blue) from two different lines, the results should be the same as a sibling F1 cross but with a more diversified gene pool! :dancing: :thumb: :dancing:

Like you said the trouble is that you don't know what genes everything has except the double recessive (assuming it is possible) that expresses both the gold and the electric blue traits. You will get lots of normal looking JD's with all sorts of hidden genes, some golds with and without the recessive electric blue gene, and electric blues with and without the recessive gold genes. Quite the hodgepodge of genes from the F2 cross... :roll:


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

So the way I understand thisâ€¦

Frameshaft is suggesting the offspring of the Blue x Gold pair will all have the same recessive traits. Iâ€™d assume you expect all the fry to hold both the Blue and Gold genes in a recessive stateâ€¦ Thus if they were to be bred to each other (or an unrelated fish of the same morphology) The result would be a percentage of fish that are Blue, a percentage Gold and possibly a new mixed colorationâ€¦ feel free to correct me if Iâ€™m wrongâ€¦

Auratum is suggesting the offspring of the Blue x Gold pair will be a combination of regular JD, Blue Gene, Gold Gene, and most likely a Blue & Gold Gene. Thus identifying what fish has what genetic make up will be difficult and take extensive breeding to isolate the fish producing a new coloration.

I believe the offspring of Blue x Gold will be 50% Blue Gene and 50% Gold Gene. I also believe that if this cross does ever produce a fish that is both Blue and Goldâ€¦ the nature of the Gold quality will wash out the Blue just like it does brown and blackâ€¦

I have to admit all three perspectives are based on logical thought and are valid possibilitiesâ€¦ I guess we wonâ€™t know for about 14 monthsâ€¦ Letâ€™s just make sure we do some trading to diversify our genetics


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## auratum (Jul 6, 2006)

nc_nutcase said:


> Auratum is suggesting the offspring of the Blue x Gold pair will be a combination of regular JD, Blue Gene, Gold Gene, and most likely a Blue & Gold Gene. Thus identifying what fish has what genetic make up will be difficult and take extensive breeding to isolate the fish producing a new coloration.


Nope - I am suggesting the second generation of the Blue x Gold pair will be the mix as described above. I think I am in 100% agreement with Frameshift. Only 2 different ideas here not three.

I believe the two different color forms arise from changes in different parts of the skin of the JD. My impression is that the gold form comes from recessive trait that doesn't allow the fish to express the normal amount of dark melanin color in some of it's tissues. For the electric blue form - it looks like it has a recessive gene that allows the blue color normally confined to the tips of scales and a few other areas to spread out and cover the entire skin of the fish. Therefore, my logic is that these would be two independent recessive traits that could express simultaneously. I agree that it is possible for one trait to mask the affect of the other, but we won't know until we see one... :dancing:  :thumb:



nc_nutcase said:


> Letâ€™s just make sure we do some trading to diversify our genetics


Agreed! :thumb:


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## jefejt (Mar 10, 2005)

We may be in business. My male and other gold female were doing some circles tonight. I'm definitely curious to find out what will happen. If only we could fast forward.


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## Big Vine (Feb 26, 2007)

Well, you guys have definitely got me intrigued... opcorn: 
BV


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## Frameshift (Sep 12, 2003)

auratum said:


> nc_nutcase said:
> 
> 
> > Auratum is suggesting the offspring of the Blue x Gold pair will be a combination of regular JD, Blue Gene, Gold Gene, and most likely a Blue & Gold Gene. Thus identifying what fish has what genetic make up will be difficult and take extensive breeding to isolate the fish producing a new coloration.
> ...


I agree 100% with Auratum. I think we've had a similar discussion before on the same thing...

http://bluejax.14.forumer.com/viewtopic ... highlight=

Here's a "drawing" I did of what the offspring would turn out to be (based of what I understand of genetics and assuming that the mechanism of color change is different for gold and EBJD).










And to quote myself on another post...

I honestly couldn't tell you what would come of an EBJD X Gold. I'm assuming the fry would be fertile, but I'm pretty certain the two color variants are not due to the same allele so you could probably have both gold and EBJD expressed at the same time. The Golds still contain the gold and blue pigment that the WT have, and that the EBJD's have in excess, so in theory you should be able to get an EBJD with the pink background.

If that's correct the first generation of Gold X EBJD would look like the WT, as all the offspring would be heterozygous, as Gold would be aaBB and EBJD's would be AAbb.

So the F1 offspring from the P generation would be 100% AaBb using the classic Punnet Square.

Cross the second generation and you'd get Mendel's classic ratio of 9:3:3:1 for genetic variablilty of two alleles, WT's (AABB (1), AaBB (2), AABb (2), and AaBb (4)), EBJD (AAbb (1), Aabb (2)), Gold (aaBB (1), AABb (2)), and the elusive gold EBJD (aabb (1)).

Of course, this is all theoretical. Until someone actually breeds them or we sequence the genome of the WT vs. EBJD vs. Gold and find the locations of the mutations it's the best I can do.

IF (and it's a big if) everything works like simple Mendelian genetics and the two different color morphs are on different alleles and come about due to different pathways (like I said, a lot of ifs) you'd end up with the classic 9:3:3:1 ratio like Mendel got with his yellow/green and wrinkled/smooth pea crosses.

9/16th (56.25%) would be normal looking, 3/16th (18.75%) would be EBJD, 3/16th (18.75%) would be gold, and 1/16th (6.25%) would be both EBJD and gold. Of course, nature doesn't work in fractions of percents.

If you don't like my little Punnet square, look at this-










The yellow peas would be normal JD's, the wrinkled could be Gold (or EBJD), the green EBJD (or Gold), and the lone green wrinkled pea would be the gold EBJD.

That's 1/16th of the total spawn, so say the average spawn is 500 fry, that means if you have no outside influences and can raise all 500 of the F2 generation, you'd get 31 Gold EBJDs.

So far my hypothesis is correct, as he cannot distinguish any differences in the fry, which would make them all wild type heterozygous. Grin

Taken from

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... =gold+blue


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128 (Mar 22, 2006)

WOW!! You guys lost me! I dont even want to try to understand this.......... :-? 

That's why I stick with regular morphs of cichlids and just bred them to get fry. :lol:


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## auratum (Jul 6, 2006)

It looks like things got too nerdy and scared everyone off from this discussion! 

So the green wrinkled pea is the goal! :dancing:

I have suggested elsewhere that if a Gold (maize)/Blue Dempsey is successfully bred that it be called the Wolverine JD in honor of my Alma Mater. :thumb:  :thumb:


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## Frameshift (Sep 12, 2003)

Yeah, I tend to frighten people when I get into genetics. The spittle starts flying and the arms start waving...


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## convictkid (Jul 28, 2004)

I understand completely, just like Biology 101.


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## convictkid (Jul 28, 2004)

Although including the possible phenotypes and typing geno types seperately might help.


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## auratum (Jul 6, 2006)

If we assume this to be as straight forward as Frameshift suggests, then you can use a spreadsheet and formulas to do all the math for you and make the predictions for each cross...

This would be the first cross - Gold x EBJD:









This would be the F2 cross or the results for crossing the siblings from the above cross:









From that cross you should see your first Wolverine JD's (Gold/EB) and if they look cool enough to continue this project, you could breed a Wolverine back to one of the F1 from the first cross and this would yield:









Now if you figure out how to isolate a Gold BG (gold looking JD carrying the EB gene) and cross it with a Wolverine JD, you could have a 50% Gold and 50% Wolverine spawn.









This is all theoretical of course and needs to be demonstrated. In the end if the fish turn out butt ugly, it doesn't matter. Although this may give additional data around the color morph vs. hybrid theory for the origins of the EBJD's...


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## auratum (Jul 6, 2006)

auratum said:


> I have suggested elsewhere that if a Gold (maize)/Blue Dempsey is successfully bred that it be called the Wolverine JD in honor of my Alma Mater. :thumb:  :thumb:


No comments on my suggested name for this potential new color form?!?

Go Blue!!! :thumb:


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## jefejt (Mar 10, 2005)

I've been working on breeding blue and gold JDs for a while. I've had 3 unsuccessful spawns for various reasons. Now these two have their own 55, and have been successful. I noticed the eggs about a week ago, and removed all the other fish.


























See more pictures at:
http://picasaweb.google.com/Towne9578/E ... -VnGIqJYUc

Get those punit squares ready.


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## illy-d (Nov 6, 2005)

sorry - I just jumped into this thread and don't feel like backtracking... Gold female x Blue male I presume?

Do you have other lines of blues or golds that you intend to breed these offspring with?


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## Nighthawk (Mar 13, 2003)

WOW!  My head hurts now. I'm gonna have a drink.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

lol, come on by!

Sorry JT... I had to...

Congratts and best of luck!


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## jefejt (Mar 10, 2005)

illy-d said:


> sorry - I just jumped into this thread and don't feel like backtracking... Gold female x Blue male I presume?
> 
> Do you have other lines of blues or golds that you intend to breed these offspring with?


Yes, it's a blue male and gold female. I'm hoping to swap fry with some others attempting this pairing.


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