# Looking to getting into Cichlid Keeping



## philipgonzales3 (Dec 4, 2013)

Ok, so I have a 55 gallon aquarium for now and I am very interested in getting some fish in it. The aquarium is almost cycled as I only have traces of nitrite remaining, and of course nitrate. My PH is 7.5 which I understand is a little bit low and I know we have hard water but have not tested the hardness yet and I will do that if it will be helpful. My temps are at a rock solid 79F and can be adjusted slightly in necessary Here is a pic of my current setup.


new filter by philipgonzales3, on Flickr

I have an Rena XP4 canister filter (450GPH without media, around 200GPH with media "for up to 265 gallon aquariums) and also a Fluval U4 internal filter ("for up to 65 gallon aquariums"). I am running about a liter of bio-media, as well as mechanical and chemical filtration and I actually have an empty basket in my XP4 because the baskets are big. I am definitely over filtrating (<---is that the right word). Anyway, back to the fish, as you probably noticed I have a basking light and UVB light sitting above the top. So here's the kicker, I have two juvenile red ear slider turtles. One is 1.5 inches in Straight Carapace length (SCL) and the other is 1.75 inches SCL. I know that turtles eat fish, it's kind of what they do but among the turtle keepers on various forums they have recommended African cichlids as the most successful fish to keep with these guys. They recommend them because they are a little more aggressive and active than regular fish. I am in no means an expert on either turtles nor fish but I am learning. I had no idea what a nitrogen cycle was before a couple of months ago.

I contacted Dave's rare fish aquarium, because I live near San Antonio and he recommended mild mannered Mbuna. I understand that some or possibly all the fish could possibly get eaten, and I know this sounds cruel but that would be OK. Of course I want a majority, or all the fish to live but I no better than to be naïve. I had but 8 red rosy minnows in the tank about 3 weeks ago and I still have 6 left, and the one I did watch get eaten was dead and floating by the filter intake when I woke up in the morning. I turned around to pick it up before it got eaten in case it died of some type of sickness and he was already most of the way down Clyde's mouth. So they aren't very good at hunting yet. I of course would be willing to change my substrate, and add caves, etc. I will also raise the water level to the top and run my lights on a light fixture stand, so no worries there. So can anyone give me a recommended stocking list? I would like to be able to have somewhere between 10-15 cichlid's in the tank of at least two different species. That is what I want but I know that this may not be an ideal situation and if I have to have less then that will be fine, as long as you guys help me I am willing to do my best at providing adequate care/space for these guys. I know that it is my responsibility to do a lot of the research so that I will know what I am dealing with. There are so many species that it is a little overwhelming for someone who is interested like me. I like the yellow labs, yellow tail acei's, and the demasoni cichlids. I don't think the last is a Mbuna cichlid or even what the name/category Mbuna means but just saying I like the way those look visually. Can you guys be kind enough to help me with a stock list and any info that I may need? Please don't bite my head off about the turtle thing, as it is my birthday (wohoo I'm 24 now). It is understandable though because if someone was trying to keep turtles with a pack of wolves or something I'd probably think they were crazy/mean. Any input is appreciated, even if it is just to tell me that it probably isn't going to work out.

Here are a few pics of Bonnie and Clyde.


Bonnie and Clyde 1st month by philipgonzales3, on Flickr


20131116_083616 by philipgonzales3, on Flickr


Bonnie and Clyde 1st month by philipgonzales3, on Flickr


new rocks by philipgonzales3, on Flickr

Thank you for your time.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Hi Philip and Welcome to C-F!!!

You gave us a lot of good information on your existing tank, filtration and water parameters. And it is wonderful that you are aware of the proper cycling process of an aquarium.

As long as your water maintains a stable pH of 7.5, you should have no problems keeping Mbuna cichlids. Mbuna simply means Lake Malawi cichlids that graze on algae and aufwuch (small organisms in the algae). Mbuna cichlids are omniverous but don't do real well on a high animal protein diet, such as blood worms, brine shrimp, etc. but can tolerate an occasional treat.

Labidochromis caeruleus or Yellow labs would be a good choice for a 55G tank but I would stay away from the Yellow tail Acei (get too large for a 55G) and demasoni. You can check the Species Profiles tab at the top of the page and choose Malawi from the drop down menu. Most species are listed by their scientific name but there are some common names that might be more familiar.

The problem with keeping turtles and fish together is that one is food for the other. I have never tried to do both in the same tank. That said, your turtles are still very small and my concern is that they might be picked on by the fish when they mature or that the turtles will pick on the fish when they are sleeping. Maybe someone else with that experience will join the conversation.

Substrate choice is a personal preference but many choose to use Pool Filter Sand (FPS) because it is cheap and easy to vacuum and looks natural. Fish will pick through it looking for missed food and sheer enjoyment.

How do you propose to still provide dry land for your turtles to bask if you increase the water level to normal? Piling rocks to the water surface at one end of the tank will work, still provide caves for the fish to claim as territory but can be difficult to maintain stability, depending on the rock type. I prefer to use landscaping supply stores or stone/rock yard supply companies to get my rocks because the price is much cheaper and the variety of rocks is usually pretty good.

Is there any chance you could set up a 20 gallon long for the turtles and use the 55G for the cichlids? This plan would work until you decide which you really want to keep or until the turtles require larger housing in the future. Just a thought!


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## philipgonzales3 (Dec 4, 2013)

Thank you for the warm welcome. I could definitely get a 20 long, but I can't kick Bonnie and Clyde out of their 55 gallon, as it is their home already and I wouldn't feel right putting them in a smaller aquarium, as it is recommended to have at least 10 gallons per inch of Straight Carapace Length. The bigger one is almost 2 inches and that would be pushing it with just the one turtle. I plan on getting a stock tank as soon as they reach about 5 inches, because they are relatively inexpensive and they come in sizes between 100-300 gallons which should suffice for at least one, possibly two adult turtles. Can cichlids whose natural habitat is rocky still have sand for substrate and vice versa without any adverse effects? what would be the biggest maximum size for a cichlid that is going to be in a 55 gallon? I realize that a 55 gallon isn't that big, but it's the biggest that I can convince my family to let me have for now as it does just house two pretty small turtles lol. I have a floating dock that can be raised to the top of the aquarium (or pretty darn close) and use the lamp stand to provide heat and UVB for the turtles. I could also figure out how to create a "fense" around the top of the aquarium with mesh/chicken wire or something similar that of course would be safe. They also have things called turtle toppers that sit on the top of the aquarium that allow the turtle to fully exit the aquarium. It's basically like a box that sits on top, with all the sides covered for security and the top open for a clamp lamp/light. Do you think it would be wrong of me to buy 3-5 yellow labs and kind of just see what happens? because if not I may have to wait until the turtles outgrow this 55 gallon to get started keeping cichlids, which isn't ideal but may be my only logical choice.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Well, you didn't mention the stock tank earlier :wink: so it sounds like you have a definite plan for the future. :thumb:

Yes, even though the cichlids have a rocky habitat, they still use the bottom and sand, rather than gravel, would be an ideal choice. The turtles probably wouldn't mind the sand either.

If you are buying juvenile cichlids, I'd start with at least 6 to 8 of them. This would allow you to get at least some females to male ratio. Yellow labs are harem breeders so that means 1 male to 3 or 4 females. They are active swimmers and add a nice splash of color to the tank.

For a 55G tank that is 48" long, the recommendation is a maximum of 3 different species that are not in the same genus. An example would be 1 Labidochromis species, 1 Pseudotropheus species, etc.. The reason for not keeping two species in the same genus is to avoid cross-breeding or hybridization.

Here is a link to an article in the Library 55G Cookie Cutter Setup. Just scroll down the page to see what some basic suggestions for fish might appeal to you and will work well together. These suggestions are not set in stone so be sure to ask for further recommendations since you will also have the turtles in with the fish.


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## cichliddoc (Oct 15, 2013)

I don't think fish are what you need, unless they are feeders, you should maybe try more turtles, frogs, sorry I just don't think it will work.


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## philipgonzales3 (Dec 4, 2013)

Ok awesome Deeda I will check out the link as I continue to ponder whether or not to try it. Would it be better to go with sexed "mature" fish or would unsexed be OK? what happens when the juveniles mature and there is a non optimum ratio of females to males? Could you sell them back, or would it be OK to leave them in, or will this cause too much stress as the males fought for territory/dominance? I've came across several posts that talks about crossbreeding and how it's not good. How is it bad? do the fish look inferior ascetically? I know hybrids have no to little value in the trade, but was just wondering. and yup turtles can have sand, rocks, or bare bottom but usually not gravel either because they can swallow it and it can cause a blockage and/or discomfort.

No problem cichliddoc, that is your opinion and I am open minded enough to realize you very well could be right. I've heard of people saying they've had minnows, goldfish, guppies, tetras, etc..., survive for months before finally being eaten and those are more known to be eaten by turtles as many times, from what I hear cichlids are more aggressive than most other fish. Could I start out with one genus, like 1M 3F of the yellow labs and if they last a certain amount of time, add another genus of similar quantity?


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## philipgonzales3 (Dec 4, 2013)

I like the Pseudotropheus saulosi Taiwanee Reef,Cynotilapia zebroides Jalo Reef ''Yellow Top'', and the yellow labs. Would these work together?


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

You would have to double check the adult sizes on the fish you liked above. I've never kept them before.

Cross-breeding and hybrid fish are a problem when you let them out of your possession. When I buy my fish, I want what I pay for. The problem with hybrids is that you don't really know what you are getting and they won't always 'act' the same as the 'true' species.

It's preferred to buy 6 - 8 juveniles in order to hopefully get the right ratio. You may be able to get store credit from your LFS for any returned fish you find you don't want.


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## pancakeloach (Feb 4, 2008)

It sounds like you are well aware and respectful of the natural relationship between predator and prey. :thumb:

That said, please don't keep any _Ps. saulosi_ with your turtles, the species is not doing very well and needs all the help it can get. Go with yellow labs instead. Those are common enough that if they get eaten, no tears will be shed for the future of the species. :wink: (Also, saulosi and yellow labs are not recommended tankmates due to the possibility of hybridization - and that's a whoooole lotta yellow in one tank besides!)

Re: the demasoni, from what I've read they are not recommended for beginners because of their tendency to become lethally aggressive towards one another if they can't settle into a stable social structure. Not to be too callous, but you've got an obvious "solution" to any "problem" fish at hand... and I wonder if their behavior might change in the presence of predators?


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## philipgonzales3 (Dec 4, 2013)

Ok, I will respect your advice and consider not getting those type. Someone should just pick 3 types for me that would work together. Then I can try it and report back if it works. If it doesn't then I could choose to seperate them or rehome the fish. I wouldn't mind the turtles eating any offspring fry that I chose not to seperate and raise but I would rather rehome the older cichlids if possible, that way somebody other than my turtles could get some enjoyment out of them. Probably illogical but still.


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## pancakeloach (Feb 4, 2008)

Thanks for sparing the saulosi. 

Haha, there are so many options! If I were you.... hmm. Sounds like you're okay with doing intervention as needed, and trying to stay with the ideas you've put forth so far for color...

1. Yellow labs
2. Jalo Reef (or demasoni if you're feeling either brave or lucky)
3. Red zebra

That'd give you the preponderance of warm-colored fishes with a bit of blue stripes. The red zebras and labs might hybridize, so don't save their fry; alternatively if you want more blue you could go with socolofi instead of red zebra.

From your originial list in the opening post, labs, dems, and socolofi (in place of the acei which are recommended for larger tanks due to their desire to school) might actually be a good choice as long as you realize that among the ticking time bombs that are mbuna, demasoni have a particular reputation for going off and slaughtering each other. :roll:


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## cichliddoc (Oct 15, 2013)

I think labs, red zebras, and maybe some cobalt blue zebra.. That gives you bright yellow and Orange and blue. Plus a lot of cobalts you can find red top. All easy to find fish.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Who has that picture of the turtle with a chomped-in-half yellow lab in his mouth? :thumb:

Since you are not filling the tank, I would not do 3 species.


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## philipgonzales3 (Dec 4, 2013)

who said I am not filling the tank? are you on the right thread? 


> I will also raise the water level to the top and run my lights on a light fixture stand, so no worries there.





> I have a floating dock that can be raised to the top of the aquarium (or pretty darn close) and use the lamp stand to provide heat and UVB for the turtles. I could also figure out how to create a "fense" around the top of the aquarium with mesh/chicken wire or something similar that of course would be safe. They also have things called turtle toppers that sit on the top of the aquarium that allow the turtle to fully exit the aquarium.


and I thought the footprint was the most important thing not the actual water height? Either way I do play to fill it to the top or pretty darn close. I'm sure we can find pictures of all kinds of stuff also. Man killing man, animal killing man, heck I bet if you ride a motorcycle fast enough a bird or bug could kill a grown man lol. haha sorry I'm just being mean, so I think I like the yellow labs, the Socolofi and the jalo reef "yellow top" now with that being said how many of each should I start off with? 6? 8? can I start off with two species like the Jalo reef and the Socolofi and see how they do and when they get bigger add the sexed yellow labs as they are more readily available as sexed fish?


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## cichliddoc (Oct 15, 2013)

Start with 6 each and remember try to buy around 2" fish, good luck


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## amcvettec (May 11, 2012)

If you can buy them sexed, 1M:4-5F. If you are buying juveniles, buy double the amount of females you want to have. Then you remove extra males as they mature. I would go with 8-10 of each.


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## amcvettec (May 11, 2012)

Your water height looks like it's only about 1/2 the depth of the tank. The turtles would even appreciate more swimming room. The extra water volume allows for a more stable environment (nitrates will creep up faster in less volume, especially with messy messy turtles). Consider building a haul out for the turtles that sits on top of the tank. I had built one by hand with some plywood,a cork bark ramp drilled into it and some reptile felt cage bottom for the box. It will actually be better for their skin as they can completely dry out (helps prevent fungal infections).


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## philipgonzales3 (Dec 4, 2013)

Thanks for all the help guys, I've been on the turtle forum asking a lot of questions too and many people have had success with turtles and cichlids. Some have had them together for years without any "missing" of course every situatiom is different and it really just depends on the turtles. I think I am going to get 8 jalo reef "yellow tops" and 8 socolofi as they are only available unsexed. I will add the labs later if things work out, as those are readily available sexed. I have raised the water to 3/4 the way after these pics were taken, as there is plenty of swimming space for the turtles (I know, they can never have too much). I am definitely going to be raising it all the way up, as I want to use my full aquarium, and also nice point about the nitrates. BTW my tank just fully cycled yesterday!!! Wohooo!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

philipgonzales3 said:


> I thought the footprint was the most important thing not the actual water height?


Footprint is most important, but height makes SOME difference. I stock less in my 48x12x12 tanks than I would in a 55G. In this scenario, extra depth allows fleeing room without actual launch from the tank to the floor. Will the tank be covered?



philipgonzales3 said:


> I'm sure we can find pictures of all kinds of stuff also. Man killing man, animal killing man, heck I bet if you ride a motorcycle fast enough a bird or bug could kill a grown man lol.


Over the last 8 years of reading threads on Cichlid-forum, I have come across discussions of the turtle-cichlid combo and the picture seemed representative of the experiences. Sorry if it came across as flip.


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## philipgonzales3 (Dec 4, 2013)

Yes it will have to be covered as turtles are grest climers. I'm still looking for ideas to cover the top and still provide a proper basking area. Do they sell screen covers that cover half of a 55gallon? The other half has the hood on it. Or what about a full screen cover and submersable LED strip in the water for light? I don't mean the basking light or UVB I have that taken care of with my light stand. No problem, you are probably right. http://www.turtleforum.com/forum/upload ... pic=159968
Here is some hope, and I've read of others keep cichlids and turtles for years with no problems, but they may very well be the exception to the rules. I do appreciate your advice and I realize you guys and gals know a lot more about cichlids than me or most of the people on the turtle forums.


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## wharfrat (Sep 9, 2013)

I keep all my herps that require uvb under Mega Ray mercury Vapors...and reptisun tubes are pretty much the gold standard for fluorescent UVB. It might work but keeping nitrates at bay with turtles with how messy they are will be the biggest challenge. You will have to have some beefy filtration with a demanding pwc schedule. Seems like it would be a lot easier with a large tank. 55 gallon is a pretty small tank. I tried a similar kind of thing with some bumblebee walking toads, tetras, anoles, and a crocodile skink in a custom planted vivarium with good filtration. So much finesse and energy expended to keep it in balance and provide the proper husbandry...it just was not worth it. Water parameters could be an issue and one or the other could be stressed. Good luck


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## philipgonzales3 (Dec 4, 2013)

Yea I'm going to get a Mega-Ray MVB soon to replace my uvb bulb that sita on top right now. That way I can add height with my light stand that I have now. I'm set for filtration as I have an XP4 rated at 265 gallons and a fluval U4 rated at 65 gallons, won't do much for the nitrates but my tank is cycled and doing PWC doesn't take much time. Doing an 80% WC takes me a whole 30 minutes if that. I know that is way too big of a water change to do with ccichilis in the tank, but still it's not that much work with a phython gravel vac. I could spend 5-10 minutes ever day or two vacing the gravel/sand as to not remove too much water and probably do a quarter of the tank each time...or am I supposed to be lazy and not check my nitrates? Lol I like doing maintenance to the tank and checking the water parameters and stuff so I'm sure it will be fine.


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## cichliddoc (Oct 15, 2013)

I've seen home made plexi glass canopy. That fits the top of the tank with ramps out of the tank. At first I thought put another tank on top. It was tall, like 3' off the top of the stand. That would be awesome. Day trip the hardware store!!!!!


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## philipgonzales3 (Dec 4, 2013)

I only wish I was that handy lol.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

My mbuna jump out even with fully covered tanks...IDK how they find the 1/2" around the filter returns but they do.


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## philipgonzales3 (Dec 4, 2013)

Just in case anybody is wondering I seperated the turtles and the mbuna after a week. I have 8 yellow labs, 8 socolofi and 8 cynotalapia jalo reef yellow tops. All unsexed juvinelles at this point. The tturtes didn't even catch one fish but one week of the turtles trying to eat the fish was enough for me. I got a 40 gallon breeder for the tuetles until it gets warm enough for me to get a stock tank for the little guys. .


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Good to hear the turtles are in a temporary home for a while. I'm sure you'll enjoy the fish tank better. Thanks for the update!


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