# Plants look sad! help!



## Bkeen (Mar 13, 2009)

I recently started using live plants in my aquariums. I have no CO2. In my 46g (black sand substrate) the bulbs grew into huge plants. I couldn't keep them trimmed back quick enough. When I placed that batch in my 125 (gravel substrate), the growth subsided. I put a new batch of bulbs in my 46 and they've almost caught up in size to those in the 125. The 125 lights are a older than those in the 46.

Should I get new light bulbs for the 125? If so what's the best bulb on the market for a planted tank?

Also, should I get some sort of CO2 system?

Fertilizers?

Thanks, Brandon


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## cichlidfeesh (Apr 6, 2009)

Lights could be the key here. As far as CO2 goes, if you research it and figure out how to use it without lowering your PH too much, or suffocating your fish, you'll be in good shape. With a tank that size you'll be better off with a pressurized unit, though expensive they do the job. You will be amazed at the growth your plants will achieve with one of those systems, even after the first couple of days. How many plants do you have? If you donâ€™t have that many then this might not be something you'd want to invest in. Also on my plated tank I use a power-glo, a GE aqua-rays, and a T5 10000k daylight bulb which gives me about 52Watts of power over a 20 gallon. (More then enough power, 2 WPG is a pretty standard rule for planted tanks). For ferts I just count on fish waste.


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## Bkeen (Mar 13, 2009)

cichlidfeesh said:


> Lights could be the key here. As far as CO2 goes, if you research it and figure out how to use it without lowering your PH too much, or suffocating your fish, you'll be in good shape. With a tank that size you'll be better off with a pressurized unit, though expensive they do the job. You will be amazed at the growth your plants will achieve with one of those systems, even after the first couple of days. How many plants do you have? If you donâ€™t have that many then this might not be something you'd want to invest in. Also on my plated tank I use a power-glo, a GE aqua-rays, and a T5 10000k daylight bulb which gives me about 52Watts of power over a 20 gallon. (More then enough power, 2 WPG is a pretty standard rule for planted tanks). For ferts I just count on fish waste.


I'm going to try the lights first I guess. I have two 36" 6700k. What bulb should I buy? t5?


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## Bkeen (Mar 13, 2009)

Found it... My wattage is too low... I have two 65w bulbs on a 125. I need 250 watts... correct?


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## gnomemagi (Jun 13, 2009)

Ye, wattage matters.

Also, 125 gallon tanks are taller than 29s - the light has to penetrate further.

So yea, you need a wattage increase.


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## under_control (Jan 9, 2008)

CO2 induced ph swings have NO, READ NONE, ZERO, ZILCH effect on fish. Again, co2 induced ph drops do NOT effect fish.

Further, to suffocate fish using co2 requires a very large ammount of co2. It is actually HARD to do so.

There is no set wattage to have on your tank, and it very much depends on co2 and fertilizers. Head over to plantedtank.net for some great advice.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Bkeen said:


> Found it... My wattage is too low... I have two 65w bulbs on a 125. I need 250 watts... correct?


What was the lighting on the 46g tank? What are the dimensions of the 46g and the 125g

If plants were growing under a lamp in one tank, they should grow under the same lamp in a larger water volume. E.g. I've moved plants AND their light from a 60g tank to a 100g tank

Whatever they were growing under should give you the right formula for the new tank...


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

What are the tank dimensions? I find the newer lumens equation much better than WPG for plants. If it's a standard 6' 125, it's 72"x18"x22".

Using the lumens formula, you add length+width+2xhieght and divide that number by the number of lumens. So a standard 125 would have a rating of 134, divided by your 13400 lumens comes to a rating of 100 ... extremely low lighting. Adding 2 more 6700 bulbs would double that, and put you in the lower end of moderate lighting. Uping one or two of the bulbs to 10K bulbs would help even more.


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## cichlidfeesh (Apr 6, 2009)

I never said that the pH swing would kill fish, I never said that you will suffocate your fish. I said do research on it so you know what you are doing. I donâ€™t care how HARD it is to kill fish using a CO2 setup, fact is if you donâ€™t know what you are doing you increase your chances of doing something wrong.

Here is some reading to consider?

"Most freshwater fish live within a pH range of 5.5 to 7.5 (African chiclids can go up to 8.4). Since the scale is logarithmic, this range represents a variation of over a 1000 times. Even an apparently small change in pH can affect fish, causing stress or death."

here is the website I googled really fast

http://www.freshwater-aquarium-fish.com ... 6&Itemid=1

I know people who have accidently wiped out their tank with a DIY CO2 setup, I have not personally killed any fish with my setup, because I researched it.


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## Bkeen (Mar 13, 2009)

dwarfpike said:


> What are the tank dimensions? I find the newer lumens equation much better than WPG for plants. If it's a standard 6' 125, it's 72"x18"x22".
> 
> Using the lumens formula, you add length+width+2xhieght and divide that number by the number of lumens. So a standard 125 would have a rating of 134, divided by your 13400 lumens comes to a rating of 100 ... extremely low lighting. Adding 2 more 6700 bulbs would double that, and put you in the lower end of moderate lighting. Uping one or two of the bulbs to 10K bulbs would help even more.


Yes it's a standard 6 footer. I may change the fixure in the hood completely and get a combo of types/temperatures of lights.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Bkeen, please answer the questions I asked so I can give you some information BEFORE you rush off spending money on lights and "magic" bulbs. It really isn't needed... I've grown plants on 9W over a 100g tank, and I've grown them under 500W over a 100g tank... there's many ways to get plant growth without spending a fortune... I have a garage FULL of bulbs and lights from LED to metal halide that should save someone from relearning it all :lol:



cichlidfeesh said:


> Even an apparently small change in pH can affect fish, causing stress or death."


 There is plenty of information that this is not actually the case and that it's not "just" the pH swing. Once we have the full range of info at hand, we understand what happens to ammonia when pH moves, we understand osmotic stress when there's a drop in TDS, and we also realize when a shift in pH is inconsequntial. pH swings in a clean properly run planted tank even with hard water loving cichlids is not a concern.



cichlidfeesh said:


> I know people who have accidently wiped out their tank with a DIY CO2 setup, I have not personally killed any fish with my setup, because I researched it.


I doubt that. I really do... I believe that the thing they changed was the addition of a DIY CO2 unit, but I would hazard a guess that death was the result of something else triggered by the CO2.


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## cichlidfeesh (Apr 6, 2009)

I never specifically said what happened with the CO2 unit. All I said is that people I know have lost their fish because they didnâ€™t know what they were doing. It had nothing to do with pH swing, if I had to guess it was the mixture getting in the water. You really think the addition of acid to water has no effects on fish? A little acid over time they can get used to but if you have a big spike in carbonic acid in your system (because you introduced too much dissolved CO2) it is going to affect your fish, and I would be concerned about stressing my fish out (but thatâ€™s just me). *My message was simply to do research if you want to implement CO2 in your system in order to help grow plants.* I donâ€™t see why people are trying to disprove a few side effects of the CO2 setup.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

cichlidfeesh said:


> A little acid over time they can get used to but if you have a big spike in carbonic acid in your system (because you introduced too much dissolved CO2) it is going to affect your fish, and I would be concerned about stressing my fish out (but thatâ€™s just me).


 our point, and one you'd see if you weren't getting defensive, is that we actually KNOW that is not true. I've actually setup a tank of cichlids, totally clean water, highly oxygenated and then dropped the pH severely... nothing. Nada. Zip.

I've done the same with CO2... fish were fine. I ran them through several days of pH swings and then they went into a large show tank where they lived long happy and prolific lives.

But... I'll be as open towards you as I want you to be towards my posts... have you dropped the pH suddenly with CO2 and had deaths? If so, let's talk about that.


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## Bkeen (Mar 13, 2009)

Number6 said:


> Bkeen said:
> 
> 
> > Found it... My wattage is too low... I have two 65w bulbs on a 125. I need 250 watts... correct?
> ...


Just the hood that came on the tank, it says 26k Eclipse natural daylight 26k manufactured in malaysia for marineland. Manufactured in 11/2008. It's 36" long.


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## cichlidfeesh (Apr 6, 2009)

Again, I'm not saying a pH swing has killed any of my fish. I feel like it is something that should be avoided though, therefore research the CO2 system. I personally donâ€™t have experience with huge pH swings on fish, the experiment you mentioned while scientific sounds a little cruel (apparently its not though according to your visual research) :roll: . Even if the pH of your aquarium had Zero, I repeat zero.... let me say that again, ZERO affect on fish, I would still feel like its best to err on caution and not take any unnecessary risks... We can go back and forth on this point for many posts, fact is not matter how many times you say that acid and basic levels donâ€™t effect fish, I wont believe you. Manly because all of the reading I have seen indicate that pH has an apparent effect on fish, If it didnâ€™t then why do we measure it? I am looking for some credible research to prove me otherwise on the pH issue, if you have any please let me read it.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Bkeen said:


> Just the hood that came on the tank, it says 26k Eclipse natural daylight 26k manufactured in malaysia for marineland. Manufactured in 11/2008. It's 36" long.


What was the depth of the tank and the wattage of the bulb(s)? How many bulbs?

The easy answer is that you need at least the wattage that was on the 36" tank on the 6ft tank. If you wanted to light the whole 6ft tank, you'd have to at least double the wattage.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Wow cichlidfeesh... if you want this to be that way, ok.



cichlidfeesh said:


> I personally donâ€™t have experience with huge pH swings on fish, the experiment you mentioned while scientific sounds a little cruel (apparently its not though according to your visual research) :roll: .


 I never mentioned what led to that experiment, so please refrain from rude comments without even basic info on events. So you've no personal experience... just read hobby level stuff?



cichlidfeesh said:


> fact is not matter how many times you say that acid and basic levels donâ€™t effect fish, I wont believe you. Manly because all of the reading I have seen indicate that pH has an apparent effect on fish, If it didnâ€™t then why do we measure it?


I would not expect you to "just believe me". We measure pH because it is cheap, simple, repeatable, and can be used to monitor the overall health of an aquarium plus understand what could be occuring within our aquarium.

Drops in pH can trigger things that kill fish... heavy metal liberation is one such example that should not be ignored. But what killed the fish? the drop in pH? or the heavy metal poisoning?

Duh... the heavy metals. If you read up on pH and fish, the things you will read time and time again is about the extremes in pH physically burning fish, and then all the interactions that go on with other things in the aquarium. I've never managed to find a single scientific paper on things like acid rain that talk about the effects on just the fish. Everything I find talks about the effects on snail shells, heavymetals, ammonia, yada yada. 
Good example: 
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour ... 1&SRETRY=0

Now, normally I'd challenge you to find something above the hobby level to say that pH swings will affect fish, but I doubt you'd find anything... what I do find is at least this: 
http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/2 ... 519599.php

Please note the levels of CO2 required to harm fish... I seriously doubt that's even possible with a DIY kit, and I also cannot even imagine what the pH was with that amount of CO2... likely lower than the widest known range for that species.

So what should our take away from all of this be?

2 things... 1. pH swings/drops are triggers, likely not fatal. 
2. CO2 levels that we aim for (like 40ppm) are fine and well within tolerance ranges.

Now... if #1 is correct and drops in pH are just triggers, then one could logically start performing tests with minor drops in pH without any elements that could prove harmful and slowly scale up to large pH swings... but I guess that was cruel of me... :roll:

I hope this helps cichlidfeesh... you're not wrong to suggest research, but might I suggest that one not stop at hobby level websites?

They do tend to gloss over important details IMHO.


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## cichlidfeesh (Apr 6, 2009)

Well looks like someoneâ€™s buttons have been pushed. It's fine if you want to talk down to me about your hobby level website rant, you're the mod after all.

So you say that we measure pH to monitor the overall health of an aquarium. Well that seems to me like you are saying that with an ideal pH, our aquarium will be healthy. What about if our pH is off? Does that mean we have an unhealthy aquarium? Well, according to you, in a perfect pure water aquarium it would be healthy no matter what the pH range is that can be achieved without drastic measures. Well thatâ€™s all nice but who has an aquarium that is free from all impurities? Your average fish keeper? I think not.

Okay, so pH will trigger bad things to happen that can kill fish..... Do I even need to analyze this one? If pH is only a trigger, and thatâ€™s its only purpose, that is still a bad thing... It doesnâ€™t matter if fish actually enjoy their water going from a pH of 7 to 5, if this swing triggers things that kill them, then whatâ€™s the difference?

Well anyways, I didnâ€™t mean to be rude about your experiment. The rolling of the eyes was to tell you that observational research is the least credible.

Another question for you. Since you have insulted my knowledge about the fish hobby, and apparently I have no idea what I am talking about. Why are there ideal pH ranges for different species of fish? Is it because pH has no effect on your aquarium or fish, so it's all made up?

I'm just having a hard time understanding why you are telling me pH affects nothing in your aquarium that will affect your fish? Although you have by saying you believe it's a trigger?

Or do you think that all I am saying is that isolated pH has an affect on fish? But why would I argue that, us hobby level guys donâ€™t have 100% pure water.


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## Bkeen (Mar 13, 2009)

Number6 said:


> Bkeen said:
> 
> 
> > Just the hood that came on the tank, it says 26k Eclipse natural daylight 26k manufactured in malaysia for marineland. Manufactured in 11/2008. It's 36" long.
> ...


I believe it's a 65 watt bulb. I have two 65 watt bulbs on the 125 but they are older, and in a diy hood...


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

cichlidfeesh said:


> Well looks like someoneâ€™s buttons have been pushed. It's fine if you want to talk down to me about your hobby level website rant, you're the mod after all.


 and you were not talking "down" to me? eye rolling, zero, zero, zero... only one way to take all that.



cichlidfeesh said:


> Well that seems to me like you are saying that with an ideal pH, our aquarium will be healthy.


 that would not be correct. That would be a logical falacy on your part. Not insulting you here, just saying that if X is true, you cannot reverse the statement and expect things to still hold true. With an ideal pH, you can easily have poisonous water if you added a poison. We use pH as an indicator, that's all.



cichlidfeesh said:


> Well thatâ€™s all nice but who has an aquarium that is free from all impurities? Your average fish keeper? I think not..


 actually, I'd say the pet trade makes it's money on selling inert plastic plants, inert coated gravels, etc. I'd say that it's the hobbyists who move up a notch to NOT using store bought stuff who tends to introduce impurities.



cichlidfeesh said:


> If pH is only a trigger, and thatâ€™s its only purpose, that is still a bad thing... It doesnâ€™t matter if fish actually enjoy their water going from a pH of 7 to 5, if this swing triggers things that kill them, then whatâ€™s the difference?


 You keep taking any point I make and extrapolating very incorrect things from and around it. Please stop... 
my point is that if the pH shift doesn't kill, but is just a trigger, then one could eliminate the "real" problem and no longer fear pH shifts (aka add CO2 to your hearts content without fear of killing fish). Sort of like those who like to use parachutes to jump out of planes... something ordinarily lethal now becomes "fun"... not my idea of fun, but hey! :lol:



cichlidfeesh said:


> Since you have insulted my knowledge about the fish hobby, and apparently I have no idea what I am talking about.


 on the contrary... you appear to have some notion of what's going on. If you didn't, I wouldn't have bothered replying to any of your posts.



cichlidfeesh said:


> Why are there ideal pH ranges for different species of fish? Is it because pH has no effect on your aquarium or fish, so it's all made up?


 it's a range and it is a range because they are very adaptable. It also points us to what the fish will be adapted to handle, e.g. rift lake cichlids will be more ammonia tolerant than SA cichlids.



cichlidfeesh said:


> Or do you think that all I am saying is that isolated pH has an affect on fish? But why would I argue that, us hobby level guys donâ€™t have 100% pure water.


Now you are getting somewhere... pH (considered alone) isn't very helpful. It leads us to panic over ALL drops in pH including those from simple drops like we get when we add CO2. Not the right thing to think about.

Now, one DOES have to consider what rocks, substrates, heavy metals, etc. are in our tank/water column, but you really ought to be doing that no matter the pH.

Make more sense?


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Bkeen said:


> I believe it's a 65 watt bulb. I have two 65 watt bulbs on the 125 but they are older, and in a diy hood...


unless the reflectors/ ballasts involved on the small hood compared to the 125g are remarkably different (better) or the 125g is notably deeper, then I'm thinking you need to look at the substrate more than the lighting or CO2. I'll guess that the black sand either allowed for the roots to feed better, or perhaps there was iron or other useful elements, etc. You could consider making small pots of black sand using nylon pillow stuffing and planting into those. You bury the small "pot" in gravel to hide it and boom... you're back in action. 
More light can't hurt, within reason though.

HOT5 fixtures are great, as are www.ahsupply.com 96W kits (amazing reflectors). Quite a few options really...

Hope this helps.


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## Bkeen (Mar 13, 2009)

Could I add some laterite to my existing gravel substrate?


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Bkeen said:


> Could I add some laterite to my existing gravel substrate?


That would be the first thing I'd do... you can still use the nylon pillow stuffing to make bowls to contain the laterite. Stops it getting spread throughout the tank.

Make sure you've got good reflectors behind your lights (at least as good as is on the smaller tank) or else consider rebuilding the light fixture. If the bulbs are very old, e.g. well over a year, you can also likely get a burst of extra light by replacing the bulbs. Regular daylight CF bulbs should work well.

Hope that helps.


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## Bkeen (Mar 13, 2009)

I found info on the lighting(Thead from the original owner/builder of my setup):

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=122554&highlight=



> As for the lighting, I have a 2x96W AHSupply 6700K lighting kit installed. Lights are on about 12 hours a day. Works out to 1.576 Watts/gallon, but it seems like more since those AHSupply reflectors are so efficient.


So the bulbs are AHSupply 96 watt at 6700K, but they're old... Four years or so. Also, the reflectors are from AHSupply.



Number6 said:


> Bkeen said:
> 
> 
> > Could I add some laterite to my existing gravel substrate?
> ...


This laterite, is it similar in consistency to clay? 
I currently have five plants in the tank and want to plant more heavily. Would it be more advisable to do the pillow stuffing technique or should I remove the substrate and mix it in a bucket with the laterite?

Also, where can I get laterite?


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

excellent! The 96W monsters from ahsupply should be plenty. Clean the reflectors, buy new Daylight bulbs (Not 50/50 bulbs) and laterite and you'll be set IMHO.

The laterite should be at any decent fish shop. You might even be able to find it online with reasonable shipping.


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## Bkeen (Mar 13, 2009)

Number6 said:


> excellent! The 96W monsters from ahsupply should be plenty. Clean the reflectors, buy new Daylight bulbs (Not 50/50 bulbs) and laterite and you'll be set IMHO.
> 
> The laterite should be at any decent fish shop. You might even be able to find it online with reasonable shipping.


Awesome. Thanks for all of the advice!


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## under_control (Jan 9, 2008)

Number6 said:


> Bkeen said:
> 
> 
> > Found it... My wattage is too low... I have two 65w bulbs on a 125. I need 250 watts... correct?
> ...


This is only partially true. What grows with X light in a 20g light may require much more wattage to grow in a 110. The depth of water greatly effects the intensity of light hitting the plants.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

under_control said:


> This is only partially true. What grows with X light in a 20g light may require much more wattage to grow in a 110. The depth of water greatly effects the intensity of light hitting the plants.


 I'm pretty sure I mentioned that a few times and requested the depth of both tanks repeatedly, but yes... I'm in total agreement with you that depth matters.
I've not found it to be as great a change as sources on the net seem to suggest, but it does affect it.


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## Bkeen (Mar 13, 2009)

Rinsing laterite is a pain...


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Bkeen said:


> Rinsing laterite is a pain...


Don't rinse it forever... it will never really stop giving off some red colors.. it's harmless to add to the tank and in my tanks, it only takes one or two days to go away.

Glad to hear you've started making improvements... keep us up to date on the progress!


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## Bkeen (Mar 13, 2009)

Number6 said:


> Bkeen said:
> 
> 
> > Rinsing laterite is a pain...
> ...


I just don't want the tank that dark reddish brown color... (I like seeing my fish. )

Yeah I cleaned the reflectors and plan on ordering more bulbs soon. As for now, the plants have all been moved to the other tank. Turns out one of the larger "sad" looking plants is actually supposed to look like it does... It's ?aponogeton? I think. :fish:

Will my water go back to being clear??? I have two eheim 2028 canister filters and my water is super clear...


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## Bkeen (Mar 13, 2009)

I put the laterite in the tank and put the plants back in about a week ago, using a cup as to not slosh it around much. The water never got cloudy or orange. Still haven't ordered lights-  I cleaned the reflectors though! Maybe the growing will speed up some.


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