# how long can haps go without eating?



## chiroken (Sep 25, 2007)

I've transitioned from mbunas to haps/peacocks and having large fish like this is new to me. How long can these guys go without eating? It has been 2 weeks since I got these fish and the previous owner fed Ken's flakes. The fish are:

6+" N. venustus
6+" N. livingstonii
8" F. rostratus
7" Copadichromis borlei kandango
7" Protomelas Steveni Taiwan reef
6" Placidochromis milomo
5" sunshine peacock
5+" synodontis

They are housed temporarily in a bare bottomed 135g tank with 2 separate large rock piles (was initially alot of aggression between the rostratus and livingstonii, no real damage done). I know the tank is under filtered at this point as I'm splitting Aquaclears 110's between 2 tanks (1 each). 2 additional powerheads running for circulation. Temp was at 82, lowered several days ago to 79 based on a poll I did here. Tested water 2 days ago and ammonia, nitrite 0, nitrate 5. Nitrate suprised me (did 35+% water change Friday morning) being so low but I guess with the fish not eating they aren't creating much waste and I've been very tight on feeding (ie small amounts).

I have used for food: 1mm NLS cichlid, another type of 2mm pellet and spirulina flake. After a few days the rostratus and venustus showed some interest in food and ate very small amounts. In the past 2 days the rostratus has become more active feeding and zips around getting pellets. The venustus still sparingly eats. A couple other fish have shown abit of interest, mostly mouthing a piece of food and then spitting it out again. They all do NOT like the spirulina flake. Haven't seen a couple fish even mouth any food, including sunk pellets by the synodontis.

Any concerns or suggestions? Thx


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Well in answer to you question: how long can they go without eating??--Three, four weeks or longer--but of course the real question is: why aren't they eating and is this a symptom of illness?
Sometimes fish do need time to settle in to a new tank and they might be reluctant to eat during this adjustment period. 
How are they otherwise? Are they swimming throughout the tank or are any of them hanging in one particular area? Do any of them seem to be breathing harder than normal? How does their skin and fins look? Any kind of growth? Do fins and tail look ragged? 
You mentioned some problems with aggression. Try spending some time watching the tank from a place where the fish can't see you watching to see how they interact with each other. This is also a good time to note whether any of the fish are hiding or just hanging in one small area--(both of which can be signs of a harassed fish)
I know your water tests good but if this is newly set up tank I would not entirely trust the results and perhaps do some extra partial water changes over the next few weeks using a good quality dechlorinator--just to be on the safe side since there IS something going on with your fish.

You could be looking at Bloat. One of the first symptoms is fish spitting out food and/or not eating. Where these fish are new to you it's hard to say why they are not eating and why some of them are spitting out food but since Bloat is so common, and where you only have a limited time where meds are effective against Bloat it wouldn't be a bad idea to treat the entire tank with Parasite Clear. Do a few partial water changes before you start treatment.

Robin

Lucky kids to have several 10-15g tanks for fun!


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## chiroken (Sep 25, 2007)

So new developement. Noticed this morning that the livingstonii had some pectoral fin and tail damage, some body damage. Hadn't seen any major aggression between the rostratus and him since the first day or two (the livingstonii went back to being a blotched pattern). When I got home from work tonight he was dead. Pretty shocked.

I observed the tank and most of the 6 fish hung out in the same general area. Sat pretty still, calm, slow movements in mid water. The odd time a fish went for abit of a swim and the rostratus a few times chased a fish but nothing major or severe. The borleyi has some spots on his sides that look like missing scales and he's been like that since I brought him home. Assuming that occured when we caught him in his previous tank. Not even sure if they are missing scales or just the colouring of his body. He's fairly dark coloured and I don't have a light right over the tank so he isn't in bright light.

Tried a tropical fish food flake and the same 2 fish ate some and the others didn't. Did see the milomo mouth a flake and then spit, 1st time I've seen him interested in food.

Wondering if I should offer a "treat" food and if so what that should be??? I have access to fresh seafood locally.

You've got me worried about bloat, can't say I'm knowledgeable about that at all. Probably should be having kept mbunas 5-6 yrs but never really had troubles. Fed NLS 1mm and spirulina flake as their food.

Not really sure on how to know if it is bloat anyways, the signs seem pretty general. Didn't see any white/clear stringy feces. No fish are hiding (there was some hiding for a few days by 2-3 of the fish when first put into the tank). The obvious symtom (if this is a symptom) is that they aren't eating. The rostratus clearly in onto food now and the venustus is a picky light eater.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

What you described, most of the fish staying in one small area and then the rostratus reacting--that's a classic sign of aggression. And of course if that wasn't enough the dead livingstoni also points to aggression. Even if the rostratus's current behavior of not letting the other fish swim freely didn't escalates to injury and death it's no way for fish to live and now that you know what it is I'm sure it detracts from you enjoying your tank. 
So aggression --definitely. 
But is there also illness? Maybe. The two often go hand in hand. When fish are stressed they become more susceptible to disease and illness. Bloat is thought to be caused by intestinal flaggellates that normally reside in the fish's intestines harmlessly until the fish becomes stressed, (aggressive tank mates, poor water conditions, improper diet--it can be anything) and then the flaggellates overwhelm the fish and you start to see the symptoms. 
If you can remove the rostratus to a separate tank that would be a good start. It's possible that your fish are not eating due to the aggression, (although often fish who are being harrassed will still eat). 
It's not going to hurt your fish if you treat for Bloat and they don't have Bloat. Obviously you don't want to be in the habit of treating unless you're certain of illness but there seems to be enough symptoms here to go ahead and if you wait too long the meds won't be effective. If you want to try removing the rostratus first, just to see if things improve, do so, but do it right away. (I know! Not easy catching a fish in a big tank!!)
If removing is not an option right away then I would get several large fake plastic plants and hang them from the top of the tank to give your fish some cover from the rostratus . Marineland sells some--I've seen them at the chain pet stores. 
I would also post your stock list in the Malawi folder and ask for some help about which of your fish can be kept together. I'm sorry I don't know enough about the fish you're keeping to suggest changes--other than the rostratus --and as you probably learned from keeping mbuna just removing the prime aggressor doesn't always solve the aggression problem. It's usually more complicated than that.

Robin


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## chiroken (Sep 25, 2007)

Hi Robin, thank you for your time and replies. I clued into something as to why the fish are hanging around in 1 end of the tank. I recently got this 135g just as a temp tank until my 300g is ready. It doesn't have a lid so 1/3 is covered by flooring tile (left over reno stuff) and 2/3 is covered by some wire mesh (a shelf from those bread carts you see on rollies). Garage light is via overhead fluorescent fixtures. The area under the tiles is obviously abit more shaded and they all (including the rostratus) tend to gravitate to that end of the tank. I don't know if this is a "bad" sign or not. When diving off big sailboats in Australia there were always fish that hung out under the boat in the shade.

It's hard to imagine aggression still being an issue but I realize I see only a small fraction of the day/night. They basically appear to be "peaceful" with the odd dart by the rostratus. I mean, my 90g mbuna tank was way more active with fish flexing their muscle than in this tank. They typically just seem to lounge around. The most activity is when I do put food in there as the rostratus gets abit excited and this cause the other fish to move out of his way as he searches for food.

To treat with metronidazole I'd have to order it in and it'll take probably 5 days to get here. Not sure if my little LFS even has any, if so, will be a small amount. I think I will order some anyways, just to have for now and the future. I used to keep prazi I think it was just in case years ago when I ran a discus tank. I will need alot so to speak to treat not only a 135, but a 300 possibly in the future. I've read the thread here about dosing 2x/day with water changes mixed in. I guess too I can lower the tank volume quite abit to have less water therefor less meds needed.


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## chiroken (Sep 25, 2007)

OK, here's the update:

I used a piece of egg crate to separate the rostratus in 1 end, didn't know what else to do. Soon afterwards the Protomelas taiwan reef (which had been quite timid) is now pushing around the borleyi, who is pushing around the venustus. The rostratus is just not happy being on his own.

I just cut up abit of prawn that was left over from sushi at dinner (cooked) and dumped several small pieces into the tank. ALL 5 haps ate immediately. I haven't even seen 2 of them sniff at any other offers in over 2 wks that I've had them. The lone peacock didn't eat. Once I got their attention I put in some NLS pellets thinking their eating behaviour was triggered. They went at it right away then spit it back out.

Guess that rules out bloat for sure??? In the haps anyways, right?

Still have to look into seafood for haps/peacocks, have always fed NLS pellets and spirulina flake.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

If they're eating then yes, you're right, its not bloat.

Will they still eat the treat when the rostratus is let out?
With the rostratus confined are they swimming around the tank more? If you remove the tiles, do they swim around more?

I still think you're looking at aggression here. Post a thread in the Lake Malawi folder and ask for *opinions on your stocking list.

Metronidazole is a great med to have on hand but it's most effective when you can get the fish to eat it. Once they stop eating you're better off with something like Clout or Parasite Clear.

Robin

*and you can expect people to be just a wee bit jealous that your _temporary _tank is a 135g, waiting for a 300g--but they'll still help you out. :lol:


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## chiroken (Sep 25, 2007)

Yes, a temp. 135g is crazy. Biggest tanks have been 90's and the dream was a 180. Came across the 300 and couldn't say no! Actually bought the 135 just to hold these bigger fish until the floor is reinforced to hold the 300, then it'll be for sale.

I think I'll release the rostratus when i get home at dinner, wait a few hours, then feed shrimp to see who eats. If the 5" peacock doesn't eat I may move him to the 90 that houses about a dozen 3-3 1/2" haps and peacocks.


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## gverde (Mar 3, 2010)

chiroken, If you can also try to add a few more larger cichlids it will disperse the aggression. In my 220G I have close to 25 peacocks and haps ranging from 4-12". I even have one 8" midas thrown in with them and I hardly have any aggression issues. Your mix of cichlids are maturing and are on the aggressive side, so you will naturally have issues. The 300 will definitely help. My dream is a 375G. I did have a male 10" rostratus that was a handful in his prime. He recently past away but was a very aggressive fish. I had to remove him with timeouts a handful of times and almost sold him. He was trying to mate with my 6" female venustus and ended up killing her. My 8" venusus isn't too bad and my 6" livingstoni is pretty mellow.

Everyone is correct though, if your fish is not eating, you have to treat quick. I recently had a bout with malawi bloat in the main 220G tank and lost 2 fish. It wasn't fun!


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## chiroken (Sep 25, 2007)

I have also realized I don't have alot of fish in that 135. I have a dozen or so haps/peacocks in the 3+" range but I'm concerned with their safety by adding them into the 135. They are currently in a 90. My plan was to add them into the 300, let them get settled, then add the big boys that are in the 135. The 300 is probably 2 months away from being set up.

All 6 haps ate aggressively prawn again tonight. I will discontinue with the prawn for several days, hope they get hungry, and will go for the NLS pellet. Decided to keep the rostratus sequested for now. Removed the 1 peacock and added him into the 90. He is the only fish that has yet to eat, showed no interest in the prawn.


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## chiroken (Sep 25, 2007)

Update, please provide your opinions.

The removed peacock to the 90 declined and passed within 2 days. I did not see him eat. Late last week I noticed the P. taiwan reef having redness at the base of the pectoral fins (is this a particular sign of something?). When returning home that night he was having equilibrium problems (not able to maintain a straight posture in the water). I removed him to a smaller isolation tank. He passed within another day. I never did see him eat other than a bit of prawn. The venustus has turned off food again. He was periodically picking off the odd pellet, not anymore. The borleyi is also still off food (although a week or so ago he did eat a "few" pellets). The rostratus is still sequestered in 1 end of the tank and continues to eat well. The milomo has gone from the most timid in the tank to feeding quite well.

The milomo has lost alot of his darker barring and has taken on a more purplish sheen to his body. He's now much more active and he now pushes around the borleyi as well as the venustus to some extent. The borleyi pushes around the venustus. No damage to the milomo or venustus, looks like the borleyi has lost the odd scale but he's looked like that since the day I got them (must be 6 wks now).

I don't have more similar sized fish to add to the tank to disperse aggression. I have nearly 20 fish in another tank but they are 2.5-3.5" or there abouts. Concerned with adding some of those fish to this tank of 6-8" fish not too mention if something is in this tank that is harmful. The smaller fish are in a 90, same tap water is used, I don't modify the pH, similar temp, and they ALL eat like it's their last meal.

Many of you will most likely disagree, however I decided to start treatment with metro. No stingy white feces and they did all eat on 2 occassions when offered prawn. I didn't know what else to do. I'm basically following the 2-a-day dosing that was on a thread on this forum. This morning was dosing #4. No change in any behaviour or eating habits of any of the fish. I plan on dosing tonight and tomorrow morning for sure (6 doses over 3 days).

Just did water change and 0 ammonia/nitrite, less than 5 nitrate, redosed with metro. pH between the 7.5 & 8.0 colours. Recently (2 wks ago?) started raising the pH with baking soda. It either got the milomo on food or was a coincidence. Filter is a fully cycled aquaclear 110 with a bag of crushed coral on top of the sponge. 2 powerheads also in the tank. This was the 2nd aquaclear 110 that ran on the 90 and when this tank was set up I "stole" it from the other tank. As a reminder, this 135g tank is temporary for a few months until the 300g gets set up.

I am at my wits end. I've lost 2 of these fish IMO due to not eating. Water is clean and well circulated, temp is good. Wondering if toxins leaching out of the rocks I'm using? They are dark rocks with some lighter veins, cleaned well before added to the tank.

Wondering if the aggression amongst the 3 are causing too much stress? Very interesting to see the milomo (smallest) rule the roost since he's gone back on food. Only other thing I can think of trying is buying more eggcrate and splitting the tank into 1/4's so each fish is isolated. Just stick the synodontis in 1 of the partitions. Thoughts on that? I don't plan on freeing the rostratus. I did recently and he quickly started dominating the other fish.

The theory of "let them get hungry enough and they'll eat" doesn't seem to be working. I am considering putting them on a diet of shrimp/prawn and maybe using some white fish (cod) to get food into them and hopefully get them to get some strength back or something, I really don't know. Can it be overdone with the meat protein as diet and that put them at a health risk too? I just want them on NLS pellets!!

I am open to any and all comments/suggestions.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'd separate the aggressive ones...or if you are not sure...the healthy eating ones. And see if the others are better able to compete.


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## chiroken (Sep 25, 2007)

Thanks DJ, I decided that I am going to split the tank up with eggcrate tomorrow morning as i've noticed a couple of blood streaks through the venustus' tail. My spirits were definitely lifted tonight when I fed the fish and the borleyi ate, and ate quite well. I've only seen him pick at a few pellets in 6 wks. Incouraging. Now I need that venustus to eat. By noon there will be 4 compartments for 4 fish and I will put the synodontis in 1 of them too. The venustus will go in an end compartement so only 1 fish on 1 side of him. The bad boy rostratus will stay at the other end.

Will dose again with metro tomorrow morning (6th dose in 3 days) then may not be able to dose again until Sunday evening. Not sure what effect a break in dosing will have?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The blood streaks are a concern and not related to bloat. Septicemia? I have never seen actual blood coloration associated with an aggression injury.


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## chiroken (Sep 25, 2007)

DJRansome said:


> The blood streaks are a concern and not related to bloat. Septicemia? I have never seen actual blood coloration associated with an aggression injury.


If septicemia, what now? I noticed the taiwan reef shortly before loosing equilibrium had the base of his pectoral fins go red. If infection, the question is from what??? Large water changes have kept the water parameters excellent. I guess the stressors these fish have been exposed to would be the initial catching and transport to my house and any aggression within the tank once they were here.

Suggestions? Still plan on isolating each fish this morning.


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## chiroken (Sep 25, 2007)

Nitrofurazone combined with Kanamycin seems to be what you (DJ) typically recommend. Have very little hope of finding that here in town. I have no meds at home other than metro and an old bottle of super ick I found in a box from long ago. I'm heading into town to buy eggcrate and will check Walmart and our LFS. No other options unfortunately. Don't know if online ordering and shipping would be in time anyways???


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I think it's GTZ that recommends those meds...my fish never get sick so I have no experience. But I pass along the recommendations of others if I don't see a prior response. You need an antibiotic, but IDK what kind specifically.


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