# Something went wrong??



## TheBanker (Jun 14, 2008)

Well i came home monday from a weekend vacation to find my 2 yellow labs dead, a male afra "chewere" dead, and a Male kenyi on his way out. All look like they have been beaten up. Before i left friday morning, i did a 40% water change and fed them normally. I came home to find out my air conditioner had went out for some reason, so the house was extremely hot. The temperature of the tank was at 83 degress. I check the water parameters and everything was ok. the tank is usually at 78.

ph-8
Ammonia-0
nitrite-0
nitrate-10ppm

feed twice a day, enough food to be consumed in 30 sec. sometimes i miss the morning feeding.

maintenence-50% weekly water changes. Filtration is a xp4, fluval 405, and emperor 400

Stock list before deaths in a 75gallon

Cyrtocara moorii-1
Protomelas sp. "Spilonotus Tanzania" -1
Sciaenochromis fryeri Maleri Island-1
Protomelas taeniolatus "red empress"-1
Afra "coube" male-1
afra "chewere" male-1
Kenyi male-1
yellow labs-3

i was slowly downsizing my mbuna, and buying haps for a new 225g on order.

Only thing that has changed in the last month is the addition of the blue dolphin, and adding a used fluval 405. The canister was used for saltwater, but i cleaned it good. I did a search to see if i can find someone who was having a similar problem to me, and came up with thread talking about "skinny disease", The male kenyi has the depressions on the side of his head now, and possibly the red empress to, just not as bad yet. Im wondering whats going on and how did the problem arise. I need to start using meds, but don't know which one. I've already started a round of JPC, but it doesn't look like its making any improvements, The male kenyi had stringy white feces, and the S. fryeri was half brown half white.

I think maybe a combination between the temperature swing and aggression, the fish became sick, i need some help to fix thing, so please give advise. Also once the skinny disease starts to take affect is there any way to stop it, or the fish is going to die for certain?

dead labs









kenyi with depressions on the side of his head.


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## lotsofish (Feb 28, 2008)

There are many reasons why fish get skinny disease. Usually the fish is too far gone by the time you realize it's sick. Sometimes the problem lingers on for years while the fish eats like a pig but only gets thinner. The only time I've had luck treating it was with levamisole because the fish was infected with worms. Most of the time, I loose the fish or put it down when meds don't seem to help it.

Its really hard to tell what happened while you were gone. At higher temperatures, the water carries less oxygen along with the stress of the higher temperature. Also, the dead fish would be adding toxins to the tank. I wouldn't go overboard trying to medicate the tank. Try feeding an anti-parasite food and see if it helps.


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## TheBanker (Jun 14, 2008)

i've brought the anti-parasite food, everyone is taking it in then spitting it back out, the coube male and kenyi is the only one not eating at all, he is usually always out and about, but now is hiding in the rocks.

i was thinking about using meds, because some fish are still looking ok, and was thinking the diseased fish could spread it throughout the tank.


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## lotsofish (Feb 28, 2008)

Have you done a water change since your return. If so, did you let the temperature come down gradually so there wouldn't be a shock? They could just be reacting to the changes in their environment. It sounds like they are stressed out.

If they won't eat the food, you could try Clout or Jungle Clear's Anti-parasite product. I would do a water change and gravel vac first before adding the medication. Might want to keep the lights dim to ease their stress. After the course of treatment recommended in the instructions, you might isolate any fish that don't respond and continue their treatment in another tank.


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## xalow (May 10, 2007)

> you might isolate any fish that don't respond and continue their treatment in another tank.


I don't know if skinny disease is the same as fish tuberculosis but the two certainly share symptoms in common. I was thinking it could be internal parasites but I don't believe those would cause the sunken in head area while fish TB would also cause the white splotches on the kenyi. Maracynvis the usual suggest drug for either fish TB and skinny, though parasites would be best treated with something else like jungle parasite clear. I don't think internal parasite could kill that many fish so quickly either, when did you first notice the fish getting skinny?

Just to be careful if you have an immune system problem try to limit your contact with the tank water with gloves, don't use your toothbrush to clean the tank, not getting it in open wound, or using your mouth to start siphons etc.

Anyone know how to tell the difference between fish TB (which I think is pretty rare), skinny disease (if its not just a term for something else), and internal parasites?


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## lotsofish (Feb 28, 2008)

Unfortunately, I think the only way to tell what the problem is would be to take the fish to a vet that treats fish. They can do a scrape and look at it under a microscope. They can also check the feces under a scope and with larger fish, they can take a blood sample.

There aren't very many vets that treat fish and when they do, it can get pretty expensive fast. For a prized pet it is worth it. Many fish have longer life-spans than cats and dogs but the cure rate for "skinny disease" may not be worth going to the vet. I hope someone can prove me wrong on this.


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## TheBanker (Jun 14, 2008)

xalow said:


> > you might isolate any fish that don't respond and continue their treatment in another tank.
> 
> 
> I don't know if skinny disease is the same as fish tuberculosis but the two certainly share symptoms in common. I was thinking it could be internal parasites but I don't believe those would cause the sunken in head area while fish TB would also cause the white splotches on the kenyi. Maracynvis the usual suggest drug for either fish TB and skinny, though parasites would be best treated with something else like jungle parasite clear. I don't think internal parasite could kill that many fish so quickly either, when did you first notice the fish getting skinny?
> ...


well i just did a water change and going with a second round of jpc. The kenyi has really perked up, he is swimming and eating now, but the coube male is still not, and is starting to get the same depressions on both sides of his head. Seem like all the fish are slowly gettin the sunken head. The white splotches are scales missing from fish picking at him. If the jpc doesn't work, should i go with the Maracyn ?


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## lotsofish (Feb 28, 2008)

You can only try at this point. A combination of Marycin and Marycin 2 would be the next logical step. My suspicion is the fish have mycobaceriosis and there's nothing that will help them.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/VM055

The article above suggests a procedure of management that includes killing and disinfecting the whole tank. However, it also says "Non-tuberculous mycobacteria are relatively common environmental bacteria." so the whole disinfecting process seems like overkill to me. Fish seem to get the disease when they are stressed or have a weakened immune system. Once they have it, there doesn't seem to be a cure. However, I wouldn't assume that all the fish in the tank have it and will need to be put down. I would try the Marycin/Marycin 2 combo then put down any fish that don't respond. Clove oil is one of the recommended humane ways to euthanize fish.


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## 55eli55 (Jul 1, 2009)

I hope your fish get well! best of luck saving them. :thumb:


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## TheBanker (Jun 14, 2008)

lotsofish said:


> You can only try at this point. A combination of Marycin and Marycin 2 would be the next logical step. My suspicion is the fish have mycobaceriosis and there's nothing that will help them.
> http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/VM055
> 
> The article above suggests a procedure of management that includes killing and disinfecting the whole tank. However, it also says "Non-tuberculous mycobacteria are relatively common environmental bacteria." so the whole disinfecting process seems like overkill to me. Fish seem to get the disease when they are stressed or have a weakened immune system. Once they have it, there doesn't seem to be a cure. However, I wouldn't assume that all the fish in the tank have it and will need to be put down. I would try the Marycin/Marycin 2 combo then put down any fish that don't respond. Clove oil is one of the recommended humane ways to euthanize fish.


thanks for the info and link to the artical, very imformative. I'll try the marycin/marycin 2 and see if things improve, on a side note the coube has come out to eat.


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## TheBanker (Jun 14, 2008)

a little update.

The fish in this tank has improved, although a couple fish are still showing physical signs of wasting disease (deep depression on both sides of the head). 2 of the 3 mbuna left in this tank seem to have made a full recovery. The depressions are no longer there, but what i was wondering how do i know if its safe to add new fish? or can i transfer the haps to another tank with haps without them affecting the others they will go in with. Everyone is eating and swimming normally, but im afraid i didn't eradicate the problem.


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## Brandrcm (Feb 25, 2008)

Are you 100% sure this wasn't just a sudden aggression spike? Seems kinda odd that previously healthy fish took a huge hit from TB or some other disease over a weekend you just happened to be gone suddenly? I am never a fan of loading a tank with medications, I've made this mistake with other fish, and it never seemed to be the answer. Most of the time it just complicates things for me.

I was gone for three days once, while my stock list was pretty low, I came back to all the fish beat up, and one who almost looked like your dead lab w/ no fins. I was able to save him with clean water and melafix. He actually has a slight dent in his head, deformed slightly from his injuries. I was wondering about skinny disease at the time, but waited to see signs of improvement which I did see.

I was recently gone for 22 days, this time I covered the tank with a dark blanket, auto fed, and changed the lighting to be on for about 3 hours a day. I came back to my fish looking amazingly healthy. I am going this method from now on.


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## TheBanker (Jun 14, 2008)

i think aggression played a part in the chaos, but also i came home to a air conditioning problem, which had the temperature in 80's. i think aggression plus stress cause alot of fish to get sick. The tank is doing better now, but some physical signs are still showing wasting disease, even though the fish are acting normally. My question is how do i know if i got rid of the problem completely? I want to add fish to the tank without the worry of them getting affected by the same thing.


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## Brandrcm (Feb 25, 2008)

Low 80's are not that tough on the fish, especially if only for a few days. A lot of species prefer a range of 78-82. Sudden change in temperature is tough on them though. I've had my A/C off as well most of the time I am gone, my tank is around the low 80's when I do this. The high heat improves conditions for some bacteria, but doesn't necessarily hurt the fish. High heat will also reduce oxygen content in the water and speed metabolism of the fish which could have made them aggressive and hungry. I don't think your tank slowly raising to 83 degrees would have killed 3 fish, but that is just my assumption. I've had my tank in the high 80's for a couple weeks while treating ich with no loss.

I'm not an expert on skinny disease, but I assume you would not see improvement if it were still present, if present at all to begin with.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I agree that the temp wouldn't have been that hard on the fish, especially with all that filtration adding extra oxygen to the tank. But...Warmer temps speed up the metabolism of the fish, as well as their activity level, so I would highly suspect aggression being involved.

What type test kits are you using? (Strips or liquid reagent?)

How old are the test kits?


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## TheBanker (Jun 14, 2008)

i use api liquid test kit. and i brought it maybe last year around may-june.

its hard to tell from the picture, but where i put the red circle its sunken in around his head.










a few other fish show the same symptoms and are acting normal, but the kenyi i showed a picture of in a previous post seem to made a full recovery no longer having the depressions and is back eating and swimming. I don't really know what caused all this, but im trying to fix it and make sure its gone. You think even after making a full recovery, the depressions are there to stay?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Test kits are no good after being opened for 6 months. I would verify those water parameters!


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## TheBanker (Jun 14, 2008)

ok, i took your advice saying the test kit may be out of date, so i tested my water with my test kit first. 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, inbetween 5-10ppm nitrates.

i lost my ammonia card, but with API its suppose to be yellow.










nitrite










nitrate










after i got my results i went to a lfs that i know use a liquid test kit, i got the same results. I also said what the heck, i'll bring the water sample to a chain store (petland) and they did a test strip test. No luck on the numbers, but according to color matching everything checked out.

im pretty sure it wasn't water quality that caused all the problems, im stumped on the origin of the problem. I am glad things seem to have improved, but my main concern is how do i know i eradicated the problem, when some fish still look as if they didn't improve, but are acting normal?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

You don't know that you've eradicated the problem. Time will tell.

Just keep an eye on things and post back if they don't show vast improvement.

Meanwhile, try feeding an antiparasitic food for awhile...


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## TheBanker (Jun 14, 2008)

ok thanks. i do have the jungle antiparasitic food on hand. You think i should try something different like met. soaked food, or maybe ther-a by nls? i know i have a lot of questions, but thanks for the replies.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

The Jungle antiparasitic food has met in it. It can be kind of tricky getting them to eat it...You can't offer them anything else, and you usually have to soak it in some tank water for a few minutes prior to freeding. If they aren't used to pellet type food, mush it with your fingers a bit before dropping it in the tank.

The Thera-A might be a good idea a couple of weeks from now, but I'd stick with the medicated food for now, just to make sure.


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