# my pair of salvinni cichlids are bullying my one demsey,



## BKRU19 (Oct 1, 2016)

I have a male and female salvinni pair , with two jack demseys, red dragon flowerhorn, also a mayan as well which when i bought it i was told it was a red terror they look so close as babies except the tail spot which i only found out after puchased. i also have a pleco and two upside down catfish all in a 75 gallon. but my sal pair especially the female who isnt very big terrorizes my one less domaint jack which i was told the less dom one is the lighter colored one while my other jack is almost black and he holds his own. but back to my question what can i do to stop the bullying my jack spends all his time at surface almost like his swim bladder is inflated his back sticks outside of water. but he eats and had been doing it for over a month so hes not dieing which i first thought when i saw him at the top of water like a bobber. the tank is plenty big for them none are full grown the flowerhorn had been a slow grower hes smallest in tank doesnt even have head hump yet and so is the mayan and they hold thier out and the jack is twice their size and he cant. also the female sal killed my electric blue texas cichlid. i dont wanna get rid of any of the fish or have tghe room for another tank to just put the pair alone. if i were to give up the demsey would my other jack be fine on his own as the lone jack or is it better to have two and also i want to ad another south american cichlid i was thinking either green terrors, or jaguar cichlids any thoughts from anyone would be helpful im not new to fish but i am to south american cichlids and i love them im eventually gonna upgrade to a 125 tank. so but it simple i would entertain giving up my mayan and the beat up jack which a petstore by me would take them, and want to know if anyone has opinions on what to replace them with i like colorful fish like my female salvinni or the flowerhorn. and also any ideas on how i could set my tank up to help keep the pair of sals happy with thier spot in the tank and give the rest of the fish some peace. my male is about 6 inches mayne more and he only attacks if a fish comes near his hole he digs and when a fish trys to fight back at his girlfriend and shes half his size and a terror. sorry for typpos im bad at spelling lol


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

IME salvini's are very aggressive, particularly when paired.

Your tank is probably adequate for the pair of salvini alone. Unfortunately , your choice is to remove fish, get a bigger tank (or additional tanks) or you will start losing fish one at a time. The fish in the upper corner is stressed, and due to the small tank, cannot escape.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Welcome to C-F

Great advice there.

Problems will likely persist if you remove the bullied Jack. When stocking Central Americans, especially a pair with other fish, you need to provide big line of sight breaks in the form of wood or rock. Although you're attached to the current stock, you should really consider removing everything but the Sal pair and adding a school of dither fish or removing one of the Sals. If you chose the latter, you'll still need to upgrade to a 6' tank ASAP.

I'm moving this post this thread to the CA section


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Your probably going to need to upgrade to a larger tank soon.....or consider getting rid of many fish. Too many aggressive fish that will get large. Might be OK when small, but not for very long. Mayan and flowerhorn are going to need a 6 foot tank as a minimum, to be kept with these tank mates. Salvini, with these kind of tank mates, as well. And even then, no assurance they get along over the long term as CA are generally the most serious of competitors.


Iggy Newcastle said:


> you should really consider removing everything but the Sal pair and adding a school of dither fish


I don't see that as a solution for the simple fact salvini pairs are not generally very stable outside of a community situation. Even a few memebers on this site have claimed the males ALWAYS kill their females. I can see that, outside of community situations, as with most sal pairs, there is usually a short break up after every spawn. IF you go that route, you'll definitely need a divider and a close eye. Kept salvinis now, over 15 years. I've had over 15 female spawn with around 8 males; over 100 spawns in community tanks. Even in a community situation, I've lost 3 females to male aggression over this span of time.
As far as schooling dithers, they would have to be able to stay out of the way. Difficult to do in a 75 gal. for many schooling fish, as sals are one of the most pushy for space of any substrate spawner.
Schooling dithers won't work as target fish because they really don't count as part of the pecking order. So they won't divert the male's attention away from the female.
My last attempt to keep giant danios with sals in my 180 gal.......full grown giant danios all got swallowed whole by my female sals. It's not a difficult swallow, either. Just a question of how lazy the sals are, and if and when the chance arises. Sals get to a decent enough size they are more then capable of swallowing any of the tetras, danios, smaller barbs ect.
In a 75 gal., I had success housing a sal pair with mbuna. IMO and IME, they are much less tolerant of other CA. IMO, a sal pair is very unlikely to work for any significant period of time with other CA in a 75 gal.


Iggy Newcastle said:


> or removing one of the Sals.


That could be a solution, at least in the short term. 
IME, female sals are usually most aggressive when paired up with a male. Remove the male, and I think it's aggression would subside considerably.
The male, if it is larger and dominant, maybe more laid back at the moment because it does not feel threatened by anything. Don't be fooled by this. It definitely poses the greater aggression risk over the long term. It will compete with larger CA for dominance in the tank. IME, many of my males have been just as aggressive, whether there are females in the tank or not!
IME and IMO, generally other CA are a poor choice of tank mate for salvini. Too pugnacious and competitive when housed with other CA.


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## Finman (Sep 23, 2016)

I don't believe your current stock would fair well even in the 125 you plan to upgrade to. As far as the salvinis go, I would put them in their own tank. I don't know anything about losing females due to male aggression in sals. I have a young pair that are raising fry right now in a 3 foot tank. I would go with a 55 gallon if I had a choice but this young pair are perfectly copacetic in a 40 long. Your current stock might be OK if you had them in a 220 -260 gallon tank if it were set up with enough sight breaks and hiding spots.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Finman said:


> I don't know anything about losing females due to male aggression in sals. this young pair are perfectly copacetic in a 40 long.


How many years you have had this pair? How many spawns have they been through?
Time will tell. Report back next year. And then again in a couple years. How about in 5 or more years or you do plan to get rid of these fish?

When I first started keeping salvinis back in 2001, I had 3 males in a 180 gal. One was smaller and largely ignored, the other 2 grew fast and were over 7" in less then a year after purchase. Both of the larger males had paired up and bred a number of times. I went almost a year with 2 large males in the tank with little more then aggressive display in the middle of the tank  Even though I was new to salvinis, I had 20 years of experience with CA at the time, and it was very surprising to me at the time this was even possible. Of coarse it didn't last. In less then a year, I had to remove one of the males shortly after it was defeated. The winning male spent over an hour looking under rocks and checking all over to try and find the removed male. The point being, If I were silly and inexperienced enough I could have actually make the claim that 2 large breeding males will coexist in the same tank .....based on 10 months experience. I think if I were to try it again, 9 times out of 10, probably wouldn't make it 6 months!


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## Finman (Sep 23, 2016)

Mine are a young pair and this is their first spawn. I will be upgrading them to a 55 after this spawn or maybe the next. We'll see how it works out. This is my first CA pair though I have had an oscar, a jag, and a green terror sharing a 75 for about 6 years before an extended power outage took them. Things that aren't supposed to work out sometimes do and things that should sometimes don't. I just think you would be unlucky to have a male kill it's mate in a big enough well planned tank. Not saying it doesn't happen, and maybe more frequently than with other CA species, but I don't think it is inevitable..... unless you put 2 males in anything but an extremely large habitat.


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## Finman (Sep 23, 2016)

BC in SK said:


> Finman said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know anything about losing females due to male aggression in sals. this young pair are perfectly copacetic in a 40 long.
> ...


I do have a hard time interpreting this post. The OP has a male and a female. A pair. I was also talking about a spawning pair. Now I have heard a couple of stories of one or the other of a pair killing the other, mostly in too small of a tank, but you are relating a story of 2 males in the same tank as if it were the same situation. I am no expert but from the research I've done, and my example of one, I would think that most of the time a bonded pair would be fine in a 55 gallon tank.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Finman said:


> I do have a hard time interpreting this post. The OP has a male and a female. A pair. I was also talking about a spawning pair. Now I have heard a couple of stories of one or the other of a pair killing the other, mostly in too small of a tank, but you are relating a story of 2 males in the same tank as if it were the same situation.


Yes, clearly you missed the point about my description of my initial experience with salvini. The point is about making claims and giving advice based on the experience of a very, very limited time frame.
10 months experience. I could give the advice that 2 large breeding males will be fine in the same tank: "I have 2 large breeding males that are perfectly copacetic in the same tank". Of coarse it is not going to last and nor would I have ever made such a claim 15 years ago....because I had well over 20 years experience with CA cichlids and knew better. 
I take exception to some one giving advice based on very limited experience. You haven't even made it through one spawn yet :lol: 
Here is just one example of a person that only made it through one spawning; there are more threads, where yes male ends up killing female . http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=237642 


Finman said:


> I am no expert but from the research I've done, and my example of one, I would think that most of the time a bonded pair would be fine in a 55 gallon tank.


What do you mean, "and my example of one"......your still on your first spawn! What about the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and then 20th spawn .....and the times in between spawns.
"Bonded pair" is largely a myth. In nature there is a breeding season. Cichlids come together for the duration of a spawn. After the fry are let go, it is generally good bye and get lost. In captivity, there are things that keep breeding continuing on a regular basis: abundance of calories keeping the female ready to breed sooner as well as outside threats that keep a pair defending a territory. Take away those outside threats and distraction of other cichlid tank mates.......and yes the odds of male killing female changes dramatically.


Finman said:


> This is my first CA pair


So of course you haven't experienced male-female aggression. It's your first pair and you haven't made it through one spawn yet! Like I mentioned before I have bred over 15 females with around 8 males. Well over 100 spawns of salvini over the coarse of 15+ years. IME, there is almost always some type of break up after every spawn. Male -female aggression is not peculiar to salvinis; it's very similar to other CA, though the risks are always higher with the more aggressive species.
My only advise to you would be to keep a close eye and have a divider handy. I wouldn't say it is an absolute certainty that you'll have to use the divider....only that it is very, very likely. Of coarse, one of the problems over the long run, especially when your dealing with big fish, is that things happen quickly often when the aquarists is not around.


Finman said:


> Things that aren't supposed to work out sometimes do and things that should sometimes don't.


No doubt. There is no predicting the future with any certainty.
But your rolling the dice. When you are giving advice, you want to give decent odds for success.
You mention that you don't think the OP's stock has good chance even in a 125 gal. I'd sort of agree the odds are not great. But IMO, keeping a pair of salvini with out tankmates and expecting them to co-exist for the life time of the fish has considerably worse odds of success. That is based on what I know of CA cichlids, having been around them pretty much all of my life.
Salvini is a very commonly available cichlid. It's desirable to many, primarily because it is colorful. Many people try the fish.....few continue to keep them for any considerable length of time. Housing them long term is not always a simple matter. Despite their color and availability, there is probably a reason not that many continue on keeping the fish. Though they certainly do appeal to those of us that are CA enthusiasts.


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## Finman (Sep 23, 2016)

Bonded pair is a pair that has chosen to pair up as opposed to a male and female thrown into the same tank. Are you suggesting that anyone that has kept salvini pairs for years are an anomaly? I have read of them being together more often than not and a friend of my niece's husband has had pairs for many years. It's where I got mine from. Not looking for an argument but my opinion is no less valid than yours. I don't appreciate the smug attitude but let's call a truce. I won't demean your opinion if you don't put cute little emoticons mocking mine.


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## illy-d (Nov 6, 2005)

Finman said:


> Bonded pair is a pair that has chosen to pair up as opposed to a male and female thrown into the same tank. Are you suggesting that anyone that has kept salvini pairs for years are an anomaly? I have read of them being together more often than not and a friend of my niece's husband has had pairs for many years. It's where I got mine from. Not looking for an argument but my opinion is no less valid than yours. I don't appreciate the smug attitude but let's call a truce. I won't demean your opinion if you don't put cute little emoticons mocking mine.


I think BC was just inferring that the pair bond between Salvinis is... Strenuous? I've read this other places and I've experienced it with species that are generally considers monogamous.

Something we can all agree on: cichlids can be unpredictable.


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## Finman (Sep 23, 2016)

As far as I know, no cichlids actually "bond" for life. Even angelfish will change partners.

I've made it through my Sal's first spawn now. I have all but a few of the young out of the tank and Mom and Pop are flirting again. Think I'll go one more spawn in the 40 before putting them in the 55.

Sorry this thread got kinda hijacked. Even though BC and I have conflicting info, it really doesn't affect the OP's situation very much. He has too many large aggressive cichlids in a way too small tank. I'll start a new thread once my pair spawns again.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Finman said:


> I'll start a new thread once my pair spawns again.


Still waiting on the new thread. 
Unfortunately there are often not a lot of updates in most threads.
It would be nice to see some pictures and/or video of what should probably be at least 1/2 a dozen spawns over a little more then a year.


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