# Possible Jack Dempsy?



## rlgilly (May 5, 2011)

I posted a while ago about a fish i got from a pet store in with my feeder guppies. Now that its grown quite a bit maybe my description will be better now.

Im thinking its a jack dempsy or a similar breed. It has the jack dempsy shape and size. Right now it is about 8 to 10 inches long. it has the red edges along all the fins and the grey/silver gillplates and lower jaw. The only difference between it and the pics i see of jack dempsys is that my fish has no "spangles" it is all blackish. where some of the scales have come off it is sivler underneath. When it is happy and content it stays this blackish color. When it is stressed or unhappy it turns a pale silver.

It constantly follows my arrowanna around mouthing its sides and undersides. When it opens its mouth in a "yawn" the mouth could go around a quarter easily. It has dug a trench in the back of the tank under my water intake behind the rocks down to the undergravel filter. It constantly cleans the two flat rocks i have in the tank and rubs on them.

Today i noticed a white pointed sex organ angeling back towards the tail (at leat thats what i think it was). maybe this will help to sex this fish. From what i can tell of the discriptions of jack dempsys, if this is a jack dempsy then the fins say its female. as the fins are sort and rounded.

If you can help me figure out what this fish is I would truely apreciate it.

Thanks tons for any help.


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## clgkag (Mar 22, 2008)

PRobably gonna take a pic for us to be able to identify with any degree of accuracy


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## rlgilly (May 5, 2011)

actually when the light hits it right you can see where "sparkles" would be.

I have tried taking pics but it moves too much for me to get a clear picture.



































and its baby picture =


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## Melanochromis (Mar 30, 2005)

Not a JD, looks more like a Gourami.


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## rlgilly (May 5, 2011)

Gourami?

i have had and bread gourami's and this isnt one i recognize, and most gourami's dont grow to the size this fish is. Like i said it is about 8-10 inches long and is about 5 inches tall and a good inch to inch and a half thick a pet store i took it to earlier this month suggested JD. but since it was stressed from traveling it wasnt colored. other suggestions *** had were talipia.


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## rlgilly (May 5, 2011)

IN the baby picture it is only about an inch long.


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## rlgilly (May 5, 2011)

even if you look at the giant Gourami the body and fin style is totally wrong for the fish i have.


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## Melanochromis (Mar 30, 2005)

No worries... :lol: I was just saying it looks like a Gourami, it has a similar body shape. It doesn't actually look like any cichlid I've ever seen before so I'm at a loss to provide an ID. I'll let someone else have a go.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Not sure either. Curious though.

opcorn:


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## malawi_luver (May 5, 2004)

My guess would be Oreochromis Tanganicae

Grown Male










Juvi










Maybe Oreochromis Macrochir?

You need MUCH better pictures though.

-Garrett


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*rlgilly*
Its a common food grade tilapia. 
They make a great pet!


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Number6 said:


> *rlgilly*
> Its a common food grade tilapia.
> They make a great pet!


I'd agree with this... some are hybrids, some are pure... but definitely a Tilapian.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

The red pattern on the tail fin tips and the pectoral fins, the white chin, and the dark body suggest it is very likely O. mossambicus rather than O. tanganicae. A trio of these is a great source of live food for piscivorous species. It's amazing how many fry these mouthbrooders can produce.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... hp?id=2346

It's one of the species sometimes raised in pond and cage culture and in hydroponics. Oreochromis niloticus, the Nile tilapia, is the most common tilapia being raised for food. O. aureus, the blue tilapia, is popular as a game and pan fish in southern Florida. Tilapia zillii and the Saratherodon species are less common but possible candidates for aquaculture. Induced hybrids, because they are sterile, are very popular for culturing as human food. Instead of a pond teeming with stunted individuals, the hybrids grow large because there are no fry.


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## rlgilly (May 5, 2011)

malawi_luver

THANKS for finding those pics, YES that is what i have. It looks identical. I know my pictures arent all that great it moved so much they came out blured a bit.

Thank you soooo much, everyone for helping me.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

rlgilly said:


> malawi_luver
> 
> THANKS for finding those pics, YES that is what i have. It looks identical. I know my pictures arent all that great it moved so much they came out blured a bit.
> 
> Thank you soooo much, everyone for helping me.


I've kept and raised O. tanganicae, and the color pattern on your fish is not even close (except that they both have the red, but in different places). Although it could be a hybrid, the red on the tips of the tail fins, the red on the paired fins, the white chin and dark body are all a total mismatch for O. tanganicae and look absolutely like O. mossambicus. O. mossambicus is likely to be more common in the hobby since it starts breeding at a smaller size.

I say this with concern, not criticism. Blurring does not seem likely to transpose the colors of tanganicae into a clone of the mossamibicus pattern. I hope you don't plan to find a breeding tanganicae partner for your mossambicus and then sell the hybrid offspring as tanganicae.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Mcdaphnia said:


> The red pattern on the tail fin tips and the pectoral fins, the white chin, and the dark body suggest it is very likely O. mossambicus rather than O. tanganicae.


+1 
Male mozambique in breeding color. Had the fish a few times, for many years----looks just like mine did.


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## rlgilly (May 5, 2011)

I didnt plan on selling the babies, but that is a mute point since i cant find another to buy. but after checking more pictures of the mossambicus i think you are correct. If i could find a mate for my fish it would be nice, maybe then it would leave my arrowana alone.

*** got one 220gallon tank and plan on getting another soon so "piggly" (my O. mossamibicus) will have plenty of room and would probably enjoy having a mate.

Thank you all for your help.

p.s. if anyone has a female for slae i would be interested in arranging to buy her.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

I think it would be a mistake to assume that this fish is pure strain considering its origin. It is very common for feeder fish to include the common hybrid food grade tilapia especially for feeder fish coming out of Florida. The hybrid tilapia are mostly o. Mozambique so the chances of a specific individual looking just like an o.mozambique is high.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Number6 said:


> I think it would be a mistake to assume that this fish is pure strain considering its origin. It is very common for feeder fish to include the common hybrid food grade tilapia especially for feeder fish coming out of Florida. The hybrid tilapia are mostly o. Mozambique so the chances of a specific individual looking just like an o.mozambique is high.


I like the picture in this link if you really want to know what tilapia looks like opcorn: :fish: :drooling:

http://www.agmrc.org/commodities__produ ... rofile.cfm

Now you know why they call them "red tilapia".

Hybrids are used in tilapia culture to control reproduction. Species are crossed that result in sterile offspring. That way you get large fish from your pond or vat, not a million tiny stunted ones.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

The hybrid tilapia used for fish farming here in Florida are anything but sterile and although the red variant can be found, what the farmers call the grey variant is by far and away the more common fish. They were hybridized sometime ago because it sped up growth. Their fry regularily find their way into the minnow ponds and can be seen frequently when the minnows are scooped out to be sold to stores around the country. Although the hybrid tilapia resembles the O.mozambique, they are not pure strain and throw some odd ball offspring from time to time.

Probability says that any Tilapia that came in with feeder fish is the fish known to contaminate feeder fish ponds.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Number6 said:


> .... although the red variant can be found.....


Red tilapia in food fish refers to the color of the filets. The gold or red mossambique is another thing.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*Mcdaphnia*, you have lost me on the point you are trying to make. The OP has a very common food grade tilapia that is (genetically) similar to o.mozambique but should never be called by the latin name IMHO due to the historical crossings of other tilapia species to make the food grade tilapia grow fast.

If anyone doubts that food grade tilapia are hybrids then they should not. It has been announced by fish farmers for decades that they've been doing.

a google search turns up quite a few hits on current hybridizations- http://tilapiahybridpair.com/
so it also sounds like it is still occuring.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Number6 said:


> *Mcdaphnia*, you have lost me on the point you are trying to make. The OP has a very common food grade tilapia that is (genetically) similar to o.mozambique but should never be called by the latin name IMHO due to the historical crossings of other tilapia species to make the food grade tilapia grow fast.
> 
> If anyone doubts that food grade tilapia are hybrids then they should not. It has been announced by fish farmers for decades that they've been doing.
> 
> ...


I don't think we should think in terms of high school debate teams and talk about making points since that quickly gets away from seeking facts and useful or even odd or curious bits of information and into something useless.

There is something called a genotype and something else called a phenotype. When we look at pictures here all we can guess at is the phenotype. If we don't know where a fish came from all the way back, we must assume it's a hybrid, no matter how closely it resembles a particular species. However tilapia breeders would rather tell you they made a hybrid which grows faster than admit they use chemicals that cause faster growth.

I would put what you hear coloquially from tilapia breeders in the same bucket with what the Far East fantasy cichlid creators would have us believe about the origins of blood parrots, flower horns, and tattooed fish.

Feeds high in carotenes cause the red in the filleted meat. That's where the red tilapia fillets come from. Tilapia grow faster when they are not stunted by overcrowding which easily happens unless the fish have been made sterile by crossing species, or for the past few decades, more and more by changing all the fish to males early on by chemical treatment. Males grow faster than the females and without females can't reproduce.

That the fish in question has the male phenotype reinforces your argument that it's from a Florida tilapia farm. Mossambiques are still farmed although niloticus is far the most popular. So all the tilapia from the farm would appear to be males if they use a method that changes them all to males.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Hybrid tilpia are not sterile. Even the link i found talks about hybridizing hybrids.

As for your opinions on florida fish farmers, perhaps some of that is true, but not of all of the farmers. My friend Russ just retired and is beginning his retirement project of tilapia farming and aquaponics... I cannot see that all farmers are lying to my face including my friends...


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Number6 said:


> Hybrid tilpia are not sterile. Even the link i found talks about hybridizing hybrids....


I apologize for any impression I'm maligning your friends, but there is an economic interest about acknowledging chemically or steroid treated fish that may become second nature. Not with your friends though of course.

http://jimsfish.webs.com/bluetilapia.htm

Here in the above link is some information about hormoning tilapia, crossing species to produce sterile hybrids, and the hybrid state of most tilapia stocks except for the one belonging to the website owner of course.

It gets monotonous to keep repeating that an ID based on photos and behaviors cannot assure a fish is not a hybrid. Assume all mystery cichlids are hybrids, the only safe assumption. You can only ID the phenotype, what it looks like, not what it really is on a deeper genetic DNA level. Maybe that should be distilled into a header or sticky.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Number6 said:


> Hybrid tilpia are not sterile.


That is true. 
Often, one of the main reason for crossing 'tilapias' in aquaculture is to produce CLOSE to 100% male offspring-----some crosses such as Oreochromis mossambicus X O. honorum result in almost entirely male sex ratios, though they are definately not sterile, including the odd female that does result from such a cross! But horemones used at the early fry stage can give the same results. Other reasons for crossing have to do with production and desired traits.

I'm not too sure about the state of Tilapia aquaculture specifically in Florida, but I know that O. mossambicus has, for a long time now, ceased to be the dominant or most common species or strain used in Tilapia aquaculture. It's growth rate is not compareable to O. niloticus, which is by far the most prevalent , today. Almost all the whole tilapia that i see sold in the supermarket look like O. niloticus. Occasionally, I'll see the red or gold strain of tilapia at the supermarket (which is likely a hybrid containing O. mossambicus)----my understanding is that the advantage of this strain is that it superfiscially resembles red snapper, and is perceived, and often called 'seafood'.

I agree with Mcdaphnia that phenotype is all we can judge when looking at a fish. I wouldn't make too big of a deal calling this fish Oreochromis mossambicus----as long as it's understood that aquaculture 'tilapia' very often have been hybirdized. though probably better off to use the common name--mozambique.


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