# Sick Cychlid Help Help



## firedragon (May 24, 2014)

Hello Everyone,

I am new to this forum and relatively new to fish keeping.

Around 6 months ago I purchased an established 450 litre tank along with four adult fish. One is a 17 inch Common Pleco :fish: , one is a Jack Dempsey Cychlid, one is a Jaguar Cychlid and the last is a Red Severum Cychlid - all the Cychlids are around 10-12 inches.

I am not sure how old the fish are but I know the guy has only been in the UK for 8 years so they are no older than this as he did say he got them a small fish.

The tank has now been cycling for around 6 months with 25% water changes every two weeks. I have an external large Fluval filter but have been having nitrate levels consistently around 40-80ppm, never lower. To help reduce this I have added a second filter to help with the waste etc - especially from the Pleco!!! The ammonia and nitrites are usually 0ppm with pH around 7.4-7.8pH.

I feed the fish once a day so they are not overfeed...hopefully not anyway.

Now you have the history here is the problem.

The Jack Dempsey Cychlid has become sick. He is usual very quiet and I think he is at the bottom of the pecking order.

Three weeks or so ago he became very active around the tank and the normally aggressive Jaguar became very sedate so I thought that the Jaguar was coming down with something - not the case. A day or two later I came down in the morning to fine the Jack Dempsey lying on the bottom of the tank almost in a curved position with what seemed like a swollen abdomen to one side. He does swim if you tap the tank and he swims normally but then reverts back to a side lying position within minutes.

After a day or so of no improvement I moved him to a hospital tank and gave him a course of internal bacterial treatment for diseases like dropsy/bloat. No improvement.

With no improvement I took him to our vets and they said it did not seem like a neurological disorder or tumor of any description. He felt it was either a swim bladder issue or constipation.

We have since given him a course of swim bladder treatment and starved him for a few days and feed him cooked and shelled peas. He has not responded to the treatment and did not really eat much of the peas - maybe a few here and there. He is still eating if we fee him like a blood worm table or something but he struggles to feed by himself.

This morning he seems to have developed a popeye or swollen eye to both sides. He seems to just get worse with no response to anything. He really doesn't move to much now...hmmm!

I am really at a loss now and would really appreciate some advice on what to do next. :-?

If it is his time to go then this is life but I don't want to try keeping him going as this is distressing for him and maybe to the other fish too.

I am tempted to take him back to the vet but it is seeming like a lost cause at the moment. I have done my but best to try and help him and will be gutted if he dies. 

All the other fish seem ok.

Any advise would be brilliant. :thumb:


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## firedragon (May 24, 2014)

Sorry, forgot to say that he has hardly defecated in the last three weeks.


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## wortel87 (Apr 15, 2014)

there is more hapening here. swolen abdomen to one side could verry wel be an internal worm. if they are with many they can block the intestines and create a bulge. this can also lead to popeye.

treat him for intestinal worms for 48 hours (levamisole). folowed by a strong antibiotic (binox, nifurpirinol) combined with metronidazol for 3 days after the levamisole treatment. this will clear him out. i dont know if he's to far gone. because once the worms all die at once he can still die if he is unable to pass them. the metro and antibiotic can prevent other infections untill he passes them.

your vet can prescribe this for you and would contact him asap.

levamisole 2ml for 100 liters 
metronidazol 1gr for 100 liters
nifurpirinol 10-15 mg for 100 liters or binox 5gr for 100 liters

the levamisole should be repeated after 14 days.


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## wortel87 (Apr 15, 2014)

and dont treat your intire tank with this regime if you dont absolutely have to. you can treat your other fish for only the worms seperatly.


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## firedragon (May 24, 2014)

Hello,

Thanks for your very helpful reply it is much appreciated.

I will contact the vets asap.

In your opinion, are the other fish likely to have been infected with the worms and where are the worms likely to have come from?


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## wortel87 (Apr 15, 2014)

Well i would first treat your sick fish. If you find it solves the problem i would deworm the others.

The worms can come in with fresh food. Or it could be he always had them. If he,s stressed they can become to much.

Let me know how it turns out.


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## firedragon (May 24, 2014)

Ok cool, will keep you posted...thanks for your help.

He is looking rather poorly tonight so I am concerned he may not hang on until I get some medicines.

I have spoken with my vet tonight and they cannot get any Levamisole until Tuesday next week...fingers crossed he can wait that long.


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## wortel87 (Apr 15, 2014)

Then get a different med for internal worms. Mayb your lfs has something.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

> The tank has now been cycling for around 6 months with 25% water changes every two weeks. I have an external large Fluval filter but have been having nitrate levels consistently around 40-80ppm, never lower. To help reduce this I have added a second filter to help with the waste etc - especially from the Pleco!!! The ammonia and nitrites are usually 0ppm with pH around 7.4-7.8pH.


You are right to be concerned about the nitrates however adding an additional filter will not help to lower them. You need to increase your water changes, (at least until the nitrates are below 20ppm. Try doing 3-4 partial water changes a week for a few weeks and remove 40% each time. Make sure you use a good quality dechlorinator each time. The second filter is a good thing to have though, for other reasons: water movement, additional filtration, back up if one filter goes down, and for altering cleaning so you don't lose too much of your beneficial bacteria. Once you get the nitrate down you can just do one partial water change a week of 30-40%. You'll know that you're doing enough when you see your nitrates never getting above 20ppm just before a water change.

As far as what's ailing this fish--it may be an internal worm of some kind but usually when fish are suffering worms it's more of a progressive sort of thing--sounds like this fish was behaving normally one day and on the bottom the next. My guess is that he got into a fight with one of your other fish and has suffered internal injury--possibly the swim bladder just as your vet suggested. If that is the case then it may heal on its own--there's not much you can do for a problem with the swim bladder but I would STOP feeding him for a few days at least, (I know you fasted him before), and try treating with Epsom Salt--one tablespoon per five gallons. Dissolve the salt first and add it gradually to the tank. Make sure it's Epsom salt not cichlid salts or sodium chloride, (table salt). The Epsom Salt works as a mild laxative and pain killer. Keep his water very clean--siphon up any uneaten food and do frequent partial water changes. He's still in the hospital tank, correct?

It doesn't sound good, the condition your fish is in, however these fish can amaze you with what they are able to over-come so don't give up!

Robin


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## firedragon (May 24, 2014)

Hi Robin,

Many thanks for your informative message.

It is funny you mention a fight with one of the other fish...we have a large Plec and sometimes he throws his weight around but this is very infrequent. It does look like he has taken a side impact given the curvature of his body - he may not even be swollen on one side he maybe just bent!? The Red Severum is the dominant one of the Cychlids and does like to push the others about a bit but the Jaguar usually gives as good as he gets. The Dempsey though seems to stay out of it where he can.

He is still in the hospital tank and did eat some peas today. Yesterday, I did give him some internal worm treatment from the local fish shop, not Lexamisole but a treatment by Waterlife containing Acriflavine 340mg/l, Malachite Green 545mg/l and Piperazine Citrate 2040mg/l. Will get some Epsom salt tomorrow.

Regarding the water changes to the main I was always told 25% changes every two weeks. Is 40% 3 or 4 times a week not too much? Will give it a blast though as I need to get the nitrates down.

The day before yesterday he has developed a slight popeye to one side and both eyes are cloudy. I have been informed this is due to a bacteria probably being caused by the worms - any ideas?

I really want to try and get the little guy through it all, and hope he does, but I also do not want him to be suffering needlessly. :-?


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## firedragon (May 24, 2014)

Hi Robin,

Can you also confirm the procedure for ensure the correct water changes in the hospital tanks - it is 60 litres

Many thanks


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

If your having problems 90% every day is not to much. The only issue with large water changes is matching the parameters, not a problem if you always use straight tap you just need to worry about temperature.


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## firedragon (May 24, 2014)

Sorry Robin,

One last question, if I am changing 40% of the water 3 to 4 times a week until the nitrate drops below 20ppm, how often should I be cleaning the filters?

Thanks in advance for your help


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

As far as how often you should do water changes and how much water you should remove: every tank is going to be a little different. A heavily stocked tank is going to need more frequent changes. A tank with a 'messy' eater (your pleco) will also need more frequent changing. The way you find out what's right for your tank is by testing the water. Nitrates should never be above 20ppm just before a water change, if they are then you know you're not doing large enough/frequent enough partial water changes. 
As far as the hospital tank goes--unless you've got meds in there you can do large and frequent partial water changes--just make sure you use a good quality dechlorinator and your tap water doesn't have any 'issues'.

Popeye often comes as a result of poor water conditions but a fish who is stressed, (and a sick fish is stressed), may develop pop-eye. When a fish is healthy it can fight off all kinds of bacteria and illness but when it gets sick with one thing often other things pile on. So it's not like the first illness caused the second illness but rather the fish was weakened and became susceptible.

The most important thing with filters is to make sure the media is not clogged by waste and that there is a good strong flow coming out of the filter return. If you have a filter that has cartridges you can just rinse them in a bucket of tank water once a week and then when you feel you need to put in a new filter cartridge only replace one cartridge at a time. You have alot of beneficial bacteria on the filter cartridges and you don't want to lose all of it at once.

Hope your fish makes it. If you've got a lot of aggression going on then you may need to re-think the stocking of the tank. Plenty of knowledgeable people here to help you with that. (Not me however as I'm not nearly knowledgeable enough of the particular species you are keeping!)

Robin


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## firedragon (May 24, 2014)

Hi Robin,

Thanks for your continued advice and best wishes for the fish.

You mentioned tap water having any 'issues'....how do you mean, what am I looking for as I have been told by my local fish shop that tap water can have high nitrates, is that right? I know pH of our water is around 7.4 ish but I understand this is ok for Cychlids.

Regarding the aggression, it is a slight problem but an inherited one at that. I wouldn't have necessarily have had these species together but as I got them all together when I bought the tank I feel I need to do my best by them...whatever that is!?


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

The water companies in the UK have water quality reports on their websites it's as easy as hopping on and plugging in your postcode. I wouldn't worry about nitrate in your tap water, inorganic nitrate is not an issue for tropical fish at lower levels <100ppm the problem with nitrate occurs when it is derived from the nitrogen cycle the nitrate itself is harmless but high levels represent alot of ammonia production and for the bacteria to break that down requires alot oxygen, when you have a high biological oxygen demand it can be damaging for the fish.
All the best for getting on top of this there is nothing worse than this


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

You could test your tap water to see what the nitrate level is. . . 
Tap water issues could be a situation where they are working on the pipes or some aspect of the water supply. It's unlikely that there are any issues with your tap water, I just mention it since you will be doing a lot of water changes.

As far as keeping these fish: try posting in the Central American folder--not about the illness but just to get some advise on how to 'build' a compatible tank around the fish you presently have.. It's not always a matter of getting rid of a fish. .. thankfully--quite often you MUST get MORE fish.


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## firedragon (May 24, 2014)

Thanks for the further advice guys, all very much appreciated.

I will look into the water nitrate level just out of curiosity and will battle on to get the tank below 20ppm.

Will keep you all updated on the sick fish and nitrate levels as time passes.


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## firedragon (May 24, 2014)

No change to sick fish...still treating with internal worm treatment.

Tested water: 15ppm straight out the tap and 10ppm after dechlorination etc. Seems high maybe?


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

Or your test kit is out. Try getting a cupful of ro water from your lfs and see if your test kit truly reads 0. If it's the tap water which it could be (max limit set by the EU is 50ppm) then don't worry about it unless you're keeping trout it's not harmful to your fish in the slightest. The other thing as you've seen with your test kit is that nitrate test kits are not accurate and can be effected by other substances in the water. According to scientists nitrate even with an ion selective probe which costs £££££ is one of the most difficult things to measure accurately.


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## firedragon (May 24, 2014)

Hi OllieNZ,

Thanks for your comments. Will get some ro water and test the test kit. A lfs [about 10 miles away though] has already said that they have high nitrates in there water and they also said not to worry about the nitrates as it does not affect the fish...different from what some others have been saying on this forum.


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

The thing about nitrate about very few people truly understand how and why it effects their fish. I'll give you a quick run down.
First you need to understand the difference between organic and inorganic nitrate.
Organic nitrate is derived via the nitrogen cycle and this process is very oxygen intensive so if you have a large bioload and are using a closed filter like a canister, internal or hob then the bacteria is relying on the oxygen in the water to convert ammonia>nitrite>nitrate and by the time the water comes out of the filter it is completely de-oxygenated and it is this biological oxygen demand that causes serious damage. This is why trickle towers are very effective on tank with a high bioload and also why all this modern sintered glass is pretty pointless without oxygen the process cannot occur.
Inorganic nitrate is what's found in your tap and often added to planted tanks in the form of potassium nitrate. Below toxic levels this nitrate is a non issue as there has not been any oxygen used in its creation.
So you see 50ppm of nitrate created biologically is very different to me dumping 50ppm of nitrate via potassium nitrate into a tank.
The next thing you need to know is why nitrate is actually toxic. The nitrate itself is not toxic but if ingested in sufficient quantity it is converted by stomach acids into nitrite which is toxic. 
More later...........


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

Ok Part 2 (and hopefully the last depending on interruptions)
Nitrite toxicity works by the nitrite binding with the oxygen carrying blood cells and preventing them from carrying oxygen thus suffocating the victim this mechanisim is the same whether the victim is human, fish or invert. The amount of nitrate that needs to be ingested for it to become toxic varies depending on species and even age.
This study http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0043135477900793 shows the 72h - LC50 (50% mortality over 3 days) in guppy fry occurred at a concentration of 199 mg/l of no3-n which when multiplied by 4.4 to give you the no3 value is a whopping 875.6ppm of nitrate.
Hope this helps

Regards

Ollie


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