# Questions about discus and substrate



## cc_woman (Jan 31, 2008)

For all you discus keepers out there, I wanted to know how many of you keep yours with substrate? And how large the discus are? I have been in another forum where a person argues that only adult discus of 5"+ should be kept with a substrate. I know that very young discus should be kept in bare bottom tanks to allow them to find food much easier and allow them to grow, but I have known of many people who keep discus that are not adults on a substrate. Can anyone please help me, because I truly think you can put larger juvies about 3" (body size not including fins) in a tank with a substrate. I personally only use sand in my discus tank so that it does make it easier for them to find the food. Any suggestions on this matter would help clear things up :thumb:


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## DiscusQueen (Jul 16, 2007)

Hi.. There are lots of different ways to raise discus.. If you go to a site like simplydiscus which is devoted to these beautiful fish you will find several threads on the issue.
IMO a lot depends on the type of tank you want to have, the type of discus you want to have and your commitment of time.. I'm no expert but have successfully raised discus several times..
.IME young discus are easiest to raise in a bb tank because it is the easiest to keep clean, monitor for any problems or diseases and you see nothing but the fishes behavior so you can react if there is a problem.. A lot of folks tho do put a very thin layer of sand in the tank and even a piece of dw or plants in pots to make the tanks more aesthetically pleasing. This still keeps them easy to clean.. Gravel to me is just plain no good in a discus tank.. It is a dirt/trapped food magnet and it deprives you and the discus of seeing them blow on the sand to find food.. a very natural behavior for them...
Some folks do put juvies in a planted tank.. but that requires even more of a commitment..
I feel that the more water changes you can perform with juvie discus the better for the discus and that is usually a negative to plants.. So you have to decide if you want a discus tank with plants or a planted tank that happens to have discus.. 
Young discus also are easily stunted and that is more apt to happen in a planted tank.. again back to cleanliness and waterchanges..
Once the discus have grown, you do less waterchanges and feedings so more tank decor is not a problem.. You can successfully raise discus in a planted tank even if you start with juvies.. if all you want are nice looking fish in a show tank.. They may not be as big or as perfect if raised breeder style and in bb but you can have beautiful healthy fish..
So I don't know if that helps at all but as long as you are commitment to the care the discus need, I think you have many options as to tank setup. HTH Sue


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## cc_woman (Jan 31, 2008)

I know what you are saying. And yes my plants have suffered a little because of all the water changes, but I do dose with CO2 and by the EI tom barr wrote. So it is sort of a win win situation. I just feel that discus over 3" or so can be kept with a substrate (sand), and it will not stunt their growth. I know that stunted discus have a football shape instead of round. I have not had problems with my discus I have been keeping on a substrate since 2" in size. Personally I think it all has to do more with water changes and diet when it comes to them not growing out properly, when they are larger juvies. For sure with fry and really small juvies I would keep them in a bb tank, I just don't think it's necessary all the way until adulthood.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Hi there,

I'm fairly new to discus and I like some plants and substrate in my tanks. So back in April 2008 I bought 8 youngsters of 3 inch, put them in a 50 gallon tank with a 1/3 inch layer of sand and one piece of driftwood and a few potted plants. I had to remove the plants rather quickly becouse the protein from the food (like beefheart and bloodworms) settled on the leaves and make the plants do poor. Also lots of water changes didn't do good to them along with the higher temps. Also food get trapped inbetween the roots and leaves and the discus could not reach it all. Lots of small food particles gathered around the driftwood. The sand was more a mix of food and sand. So I compensated by daily water changes of 80% and stir up the sand every day to remove trapped food. I moved the fish to a larger 75 gallon and kept only the 6 best looking. Same problems and same type of aqua scape only diference was the plants are in the substrate and not in pots. I breed some apisto's to join the discus and feed on the left over food particles at spots discus could not reach them. Resulting in very fat apisto's :wink: Once the fish grown larger and I could stop the heavy beefheart feedings and cut down in number of feedings it is doable with 2 to 3 large water changes of 70% every week.

I plan on a second discus tank and I'm still not sure if I want to go with wilds or Stendker alenquer or santarem. If I decide to go with the Stendker I will buy 2 or 3 inch fish and grow them out my selves like I did with the RT. I will defenately go bare bottom until the fish reach at least 4 1/2 inch. Why?,.....it makes cleaning so much easier and slows down foiling the water. When they will be moved to a 90 gallon they receive a 1/3 inch sand layer, driftwood and no plants.

I have learned from raising the RT. I also like heavy planted tanks, substrate and Discus and thought I could pull it off. I did but I found out that it took much more effort as I expected. Sand is a suitable substrate for adult discus. Gravel is a very poor choice and IMO a no go becouse food particles WILL get trapped in between causing lots of troubles. I won't recommend any discus in a heavy planted tank.

My RT have grown from 5 1/3 of the smallest (not to hot looking) to 5 2/3 inch for four of them and 6 inch to the largest fish. They are 14 months of age and will grow slightly larger. The sizes are total length from heat to tail.


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## cc_woman (Jan 31, 2008)

Thanks for your response. I agree that most plants will do poorly in a discus tank. Mainly because of the heavy water changes and the warmer temps. Although look for plants that like temps up to 30 degrees C. Plants like swords, cryptocoryne, java ferns, anubias, valisneria, and some hygro have done well in my higher temps. I have about a 1" layer of fine black sand in my aquarium, it also makes it easier to see the food on top of the sand. I have other tank mates in with my discus as well who do a great job of cleaning up food in the nooks and crannies.

I tend to do 50% wc's every 3-4 days, I don't need to do more because of how heavily planted my tank is, and I don't feed beefheart. Beefheart is not very necessary, but it can help with youngsters because it contains alot of protein and fat. Problem is it can pollute the water quite quickly if there is any left over. When feeding beefheart I for sure would do more water changes more often. I dose my discus tank with CO2, which helps lower pH, and I dose with ferts for the plants. Which is another reason for my plants being able to survive with larger water changes. I have 3 large pieces of driftwood, which also helps soften the water. My tap pH is about 7.8, but their tank usually sits at around 7.4 with all the stuff helping to soften it. Good filtration on a discus tank is also good to have. I have an eheim 2250 canister and an eheim 2213 canister on mine. They get fed NLS discus pellets, NLS optimum flakes, and bloodworms, BS, ocean nutrition discus formula, and sometimes mysis shrimp. They seem to also peck at the algae wafers I toss in for my BN plecos. I typically feed them pellets in the morning, flakes when I get home, then 1 frozen treat at night.

I personally think that older juvies will do fine on a sandy substrate, and I totally agree absolutely NO gravel. The food just gets trapped so they can't get to it. But I honestly think a thin layer of sand won't do them that much harm. I don't think smaller juvies should be kept with a substrate, only bb. I just don't agree with this girl on another forum that discus under 5" should only be kept bb. I got some of mine at 3" including fins, they were on bb for a while, but I switched over to substrate a few months ago. They have grown just fine, and no bad shapes. The only discus that do have bad shapes to them are hybrids I bought from the LFS, and they were that way to begin with.

Just my word of advice, don't mix wc with domestic whatever you do. I made the mistake of doing so, and the wc's didn't seem to do so well. Not only that, they can be introduced to domestic diseases not found in the wild, and are not immune to them. Parasites seem to be one of the most common diseases I have seen in discus. Wc also seem to be slightly more picky eaters, so keeping them in bb for a while will definitely help. I found most of my wc took on the bloodworms first out of other foods. IMO wild caught are very nice, if I could right now I would buy more wc, but I don't have the room. When you get more discus let us know what you go with, and show us pics :thumb:


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Hi cc-woman. I ame new to discus but not new to plants and I have kept several densely planted tanks (still have a small 50 gallon planted), done CO2 and higher light levels and lots of ferts. I stepped back from the expensive equipment and high light levels and concentrated more to the needs of fish and natural habitats.

Because a sand layer with a thickness of 1 inch already can trap some gasses and very small food particles I have only a 1 inch layer around the plants without plant substrate. The remaining part of the tank does have a 1/3 inch sand layer,....enough to cover the bottom and not enough for build up of rotting processes. Mostly plants do poor in discus tanks but with CO2, high light levels and right quantity on ferts it should be possible to grow them to a normal size and do relatively good. Dough the poop will get trapped between the plants just like spoiled food particles. This is the main reason why I don't recommend to keep discus in heavy planted tanks. Plants are OK imo but only a few large once that are hardy and grow fast.

I have build my own in-tank large pump driven sponge filter. The volume of the sponge is abouth 5 gallon and the filter does 8 times turn over an hour. Thats abouth the same as 2 of the 2250 with the big diference that my system will keep on doing 2000 liter an hour if it is dirty or not.

For most of the part I agrea with the woman on the other forum. It is BEST to keep juvinile discus smaler as 4 1/2 inch in a bare botom tank. I was thinking I could do it with substrate but I also discovered that it took much more efford and I had dificulties to keep the tank clean enough. When discus are grown to 5 inch you can reduce the number of feeds to 4 times a day and can stop feeding beefheart. from that size / age you could add a sand substrate.

Some questions,.....what is the size and estimated age of your discus? Did you have had health issues along the way? Did you had worms or planaria in your tank?


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