# Low tech long-haul fish transfer



## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

I'm about to travel 400km for a brief family holiday to Calcutta and plan to buy some fish while I'm there. I'll insist in big bags for the 7-8h train journey back home, but I doubt I'll be lucky enough to find oxygen tanks inflate the bags. If it's like all the other fish I've bought in India, the LFS dude will just exhale into the bag and rubber band it.

My question is, if it is just (partially breathed) air, then is it a good or bad idea to open the bag half way through and renew the air in the bag (then sealing it back up)?

Input appreciated.


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## Sub-Mariner (Dec 7, 2011)

Id rather try and trap the air and squeeze down the top as you spin the bag to close it up then have someone breathe in it. *** never seen anyone breathe into a bag?


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## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

This makes good sense... but the question remains - is it a good idea to open mid-trip or not?


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## heaya (Oct 18, 2011)

if you're able to agitate the water, you could get something to stir it up and make bubbles, doing this every hour i'd say will help keep the water oxygenated. you could also ask for a couple of bags of treated water that you don't plan the fish to be in, shake those up and then pour some of the old water out of the bags the fish are in, and then put some of the shaken water in. i've taken fish for about a 6 hour trip and yes they will be stressed, but this has kept them alive. my problem was more keeping the fish warm, not sure if that's an issue for you there. absolutely don't let them exhale into the bag. Good luck!


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## quentin8 (Sep 30, 2011)

DO NOT breath in the bag. it wont be oxygen. it will be carbon dioxide. If possible find a clean cooler and use that to transport the fish, open and stir the water every once and a while to introduce oxygen.


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## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

Oh interesting option. We do have something like that, not too huge. Not sure how non-leaky it is, I'll investigate. Thanks!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

In my car I use a battery operated air stone in 5G buckets with lids. Fill 1/3 full or less. Too full is lethal!!!


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## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

So I have a roughly 10liter 'igloo' type cooler (a smaller version of what gets tossed on a coach after winning the superbowl) and it holds water great. Filled it half way up and shook it around, even has a nice handle.


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## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

I know I'd LOOK crazy, but is it a crazy idea to bring a plastic straw to blow some bubbles in the water? Or use a chopstick to stir it a bit when I open the lid every couple hours?


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

quentin8 said:


> DO NOT breath in the bag. it wont be oxygen. it will be carbon dioxide. If possible find a clean cooler and use that to transport the fish, open and stir the water every once and a while to introduce oxygen.


Just for clarity, breathing in the bag or blowing the bag up as he would have been doing is fine to do. %oxygen in normal air is about 20% and in our exhaled air is 16%. This is why CPR works, we do not use the majority of oxygen we inhale.

Obviously fresh air or pure o2 is best for long trasferes, but they will be fine in exhaled air also.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

More to the above, if you are personally shipping the item with you like you are. I would use the blow up bag method at any rate.

Reasoning? The bag will deflate as o2 is replaced with co2 and you will have a visual note of when to replace the air.

I would also add some prime mid trip, a big risk is ammonia poisoning on long transfers. Its best to not feed the fish for s day before transport but obviously this will not be an option for you if you are taking it directly from the fish shop so I would add some prime mid trip.

I would also have a container of some sort for the fish to sit inside so it doesn't get thrown about the whole trip and you don;t have to hold it. But traveling by train would have to be the least amount of stress due to bag movement.


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## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

Thanks for the input. I haven't seen prime here in any of my LFSs. I do have some activated carbon bits that I've never used (kept for emergency, basically). Does it make sense to toss a bit of that into the bag? Who knows I might find some prime-like treatment in the city, which would surely be preferable.

So you suggest a bag vs the red container. Maybe I'll see what kind of bag the sellers want to give. I know for a fact that pretty much every fish in this city has made this same 400km journey from the Calcutta in a plastic bag. Maybe I'm over-thinking.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

I would have a bag and just place it in a container myself, the container is optional of course. The Container just to keep a stable bottom and so you can put it beside you on a seat so you don't have to carry it on your lap, and preferably dark colored to help the fish stay calm. Keep it blown up with a rubber-band around it. Then when it starts deflating, just squeeze all the remaining air out gently and fill it up again.

Tell the LFS that you only want it 25% full of water.

As for the prime it was just a thought for the ammonia problem. Not much should be developed in 8 hours hopefully. The carbon could help yeah in a small space, it normally needs water flow through it, but in a small bag it would work i recon. You could also ask the LFS if he wouldn;t mind if you have a piece or two of ceramic out of his sump, he might do it cause of the long trip.

Key to a good transport of fish is to keep the fish as stable as possible, so when refilling the bag with air try to not disturb the fish too much. Oxygen another factor and finally ammonia.


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## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

All helpful tips. I fear you might be too generous assuming the dealer will have a sump, though.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

haha possibly. I dare say he would have some sort of sump thou. But just use the carbon thou, I think it would help.

Oh I missed your photo of the cooler. I would use that if you like yer, will keep it dark for him. But just keep him in the bag inside the cooler. That way you can refresh the air easily.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

If they're bagged right, you shouldn't have to do anything for a 7-8 hour trip. Fish make that journey in bags all the time, much longer trips too. Overnight is not unusual. The only difference is that these fish won't be fasted before the trip. Use Ammolock or similar to deal with the ammonia the bag water. I wouldn't worry about O2 deprivation. But again, they need to be bagged properly. Split them up into as many bags as possible, only 1/3 water, add a drop of Ammolock, and they should be fine. Shipping stress can kill fish regardless of what you do.


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## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

By 'bagged right' do you mean with O2?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

ranchialex said:


> By 'bagged right' do you mean with O2?


No, not from an O2 tank, not necessary at all. I don't think that's a difference maker in shipping fish even though some who ship that way boast of it. There will be plenty of O2 for the trip if he uses minimal water in each bag and separates the fish as much as possible. Separating is more for keeping ammonia down and not having one dead fish take out a whole bag. Hopefully he won't blow into the bag regardless of %'s of O2. Adding CO2 isn't helpful at all. Only a rookie would bag fish this way. Fine for a short trip home from a shop, but a bad practice and totally unnecessary. It's very easy to close and seal a bag while capturing surrounding air. Plenty of youtube videos out there showing how.

How many and what type of fish, what size?


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## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

That's quite helpful, Tim. The main fish I'm planning for are 4x Cyrtocara Moorii (Blue Dolphin) and I'm hoping to get them 2-3", really as small as possible. Depending on what I find, there's a potential for me to impulse buy a couple others (I've got 3 mbuna in groups of 4 and another in a group of 3).


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Four fish, that size, I'd insist he bag separately, even if there's a minimal extra cost. Bags are very inexpensive. If he doesn't want to, then see if he'll sell a few bags and rebag them yourself before you head off on your trip. Might not be a bad idea anyway. If he's using tank water, no telling how good/bad it is. I'd probably just plan to buy a few bags and rebag them myself. Let him do whatever he wants. No need to haggle with him. Just handle it yourself. Fresh, clean water, piece of poly filter or similar or drop of Ammolock, right amount of water, etc. Plus, most fish will void upon capture and bagging. Let them do that in his bags, then move them over into yours. That's a trick some use when bagging fish. Move them first into a container or bucket and hold them for several minutes before bagging. It'll give them the best chance and no need, at least in my mind, to mess with them mid journey. Keep them in a closed container, so it's dark for them. You'll notice that if you open the box mid-journey and start messing with them, they'll startle quite a bit. That releases stress hormones. You may do more harm than good by opening them up.


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## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

Great plan. Depending on where I end up buying, I may not have the luxury of going home to do container swap and rebag (ie. I might go straight from a wild sunday morning market to the train station if I don't find what I want in an actual LFS) but if I have the option, sounds like the best chance.

I'd prefer to buy from a normal LFS is possible, but might resort to that market if I don't sort something better out the first few days.

Here's a video of the market, for some reason when I try to embed the link the message comes up as blank.

Fish Market


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Fascinating video. You can only link video's here at CF, not embed.

If he's got a water source handy, which it appears that he does, then I'd have him rebag. They may do that anyway since no one is going to buy a whole bag of some of those species. Whoever buys that bag of catfish is in for a surprise.

We have all day auctions here where fish sit around in bags on tables all day getting handled and spun around and whatever with very few losses.

Nice ngara, by the way. I've got some myself and a male that looks a lot like that.


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## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

The ngara is from images.google but mine looks pretty similar, without quite as much white in the tail, but I can't get a satisfactory pic. What fish is that in your profile pic? My daughter loves it and oohs and awws when she comes by the screen. Weird she must see dozens of fish every day on my screens, but loves yours.

By embed I meant make my text a hyperlink to that video, but somehow the message came up blank, no biggie. Fishy_cichlid is the other Indian CFer who first showed me the video and has helped me plan some things, credit is due, but he also recommends I not buy from there if I have an option.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> What fish is that in your profile pic?


Xenotilapia sima 'Ilangi'. That's what it was sold to me as, but I read that it may not be, but x. boulengeri. Nice fish, I just wish they'd spawn again.



> he also recommends I not buy from there if I have an option


I think a lot depends on how long they've been out there and how they're kept when not on display. But, I understand the hesitancy.

I was able to modify the link for you.


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## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

Nice. Pretty obscure tang? Hard to find much on it from google. Thanks for fixing the link.

I put my own ngara in the pic now, iPhone pic, and fins are down, but there it is.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I think it's x. boulengeri myself. Maybe 'Isanga Bay'. They've been coming into the hobby marked as 'sima' when they are actually 'boulengeri'.



















Sima's have brown, horizontal stripes, typically. See this and this.. I've got to pull one and count hard/soft fin rays, just haven't gotten around to it.


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## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

How big are they?

Haha this thread is going off topic but no worry  If I see any on the street market I'll snap 'em up!


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

The big males are about 5" now, females 3" and up. I've had them two years+. Those pics are at least a year old. Seems like they've done most of the growing they're going to do. I think true sima's get larger than this.


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## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

A brief update before the trip tomorrow: got fish. 3x 2.5" blue dolphin and 2x 4" ice blue (albino socolofi). Also made a friend who's got them in a tank for 24h before I pick them up tomorrow. He's a marine aquarium guy (sets up systems) and will bag each individually (25% water and O2) and I'll go to the station.

I'll report back when I get home. Btw all fish were $18.


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## Fishy_Cichlid (Aug 4, 2011)

Congratulations Alex. I am assuming you had a very fruitful trip. So coming back home with the besuties and the equipments. Hey we are waiting for you to post the pictures. Dont keep us waiting.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Can't go wrong with o2.


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## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

Well I made it home and 4 out of 5 are fine.

3x 2.5" blue dolphin were bagged separately and are playing just swimmingly (my apologies) in the tank.

However before that, 1h after I picked all of them up we were in the train station we noticed that one bag was sagging and upon further inspection, leaking water. This was one of the 2x 4" albino socolofis. So my quick-thinking (and in retrospect, short-sighted) solution was to transfer her to the red igloo container pictured on page 1. But I correctly eyeballed that there wouldn't be enough water from her bag for ger to manage in that much-bigger container. My solution was to empty both socolofi bags and fish into that container. It worked fine, but upon acclimatizing and finally releasing them, I realized the the subdominant/female of the pair has been pretty beat up from 8-9h in a quarter-filled 5-liter container. Many shredded fins, especially the pectoral fins are down to about half the length of her unharmed counterpart.

I've got her in a 1-liter breeder net within the tank (she basically sank down and hid in a corner when released, so seems happy for the protection) and in the morning I'll get my 20g breeder/hospital tank delivered and transfer over water, an established filter and hopefully nurse this one back to health. I'll be visiting the illness subforum next, but miracle fin-regrowth cures and advice are welcome.

So what I learned is, always bag separately. The better solution would have been to just add some bottled water to her bag water and leave her alone in the bigger container, or carry extra large bags. I had spare small bags, but no spares of the large, which leaked.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

You did everything right, thats just bad luck a bag had a leak. Coulda happened to anyone.


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## ranchialex (Dec 4, 2011)

As mentioned here she made a pretty full recovery and started breeding with the male within 2 minutes of being back in the main tank.


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