# Cookie Cutter for 29g tank question



## mx22 (Jul 13, 2009)

Hello,

Cookie cutter section lists following option for 20(or 29) gallon tank:



> Julidochromis regani - 1 pair
> Neolamprologus leleupi - 1 pair
> 'Lamprologus' occelatus - 1 trio


I wonder if this will overstock the aquarium? 4x 5'' fish, plus 3 2''. Will they have enough space? Or maybe I should stick with shell dwellers? And if it's better to go with shell dwellers, can someone please out this in a plain language for me, please:



> If you wanted three pairs (groups) of fish:
> â€¢ 'Lamprologus' (Shellies) brevis, multifasciatus, meleagris, ornatipinnis, ocellatus, speciosus, similis, Neolamprologus signatus,
> Altolamprologus sp. "Compressiceps Shell"
> â€¢ Neolamprologus caudopunctatus (non-Shellies)
> ...


Thank You!


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Yep that first 20g/29g one looks like a recipe for disaster to me too.
Not sure what your problem with the second one is though. Is it the difficulty in getting pairs and or which are pair forming and which should be in groups?

A very safe way of stocking a 20g or 29g would be one species of shell dweller and I think an excellent start to keeping and breeding them for the first time.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Yeah, I strongly advise against following the cookie cutters... instead, pick the one fish you really like, and we can build around that species.

Shellies are great in smaller tanks, but you'll need to pick tankmates carefully. The cookie cutter suggests that you pick one of the shelly species, then 2 other species: terrible idea.

Please scratch leleupi, paracyps, xenos, and J. regani from plans for any tanks smaller than 36" long or less than 40 gallons. The smaller julies are good (transcriptus or ornatus) with shellies, Caudopunks are fine, and I haven't kept any Telmats so I don't know there.

You'd be hard pressed to squeeze in a 3rd species in a 20 or 29 gallon tank.


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## mx22 (Jul 13, 2009)

Thanks alot guys for taking time to answer.

As for which fish I like the most... My wife wants something bright; she really liked the Neolamprologus leleupi. Is there something similar, but in size that would fit 29gallon?

Thank You!


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

A group of leleupi alone would be fine in the 29 gallon, but they can be pretty mean to other fish. To get a compatible pair, start with 5-6 juvenile leleupi, and remove the extras when a pair forms.

Can you tell your wife that while more subtlety colored, other fish have more interesting behaviors? Like raising multiple generations of babies in a colony? :fish: opcorn:


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## mx22 (Jul 13, 2009)

triscuit - thanks a lot! Well, lets approach it from another direction - what setup would you recommend for a 29gal?

P.S. leleupi - so basically 1 pair for 29gal only, nothing else, right?

Thank You!


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## Rick_Lindsey (Aug 26, 2002)

I'm not triscuit, but I'd recommend a shell-dweller of choice and a small rock-dweller. An example would be L. Multifasciatus with J. Transcriptus. You could start with a fistfull of juvies for each species and wait for them to sort themselves into a pair/trio and remove the strays. In the case of L. Multifasciatus or L. Similis however the whole fistful may get along spendidly and you might not have to remove any.

-Rick (the armchair aquarist)


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

Why not 1m 2fm orange occelatus, on lone leleupi (Both have pretty colors) and a pair of J. transcriptus. Or sub Transcriptus for a pair of Altos with a rock pile to one side of the tank to give the shellies their space? The Altos are a tiny bit ambitious but they're cool and will do fine in a 30. Though I agree J. transcriptus would probably be more "at home" in a 30 than would altos. Add some nerites for algae and you're good! 
Just tell your wife the truth... You're soon going to be obsessed with Tanganyikans and you'll inevitably be decorating your basement with various pumps, hoses, sumps and lights, not to mention at least a dozen tanks, so she has no need to worry, soon the 2 of you will be the keepers of "bright" fish, dull fish, big fish and small fish!


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## Rick_Lindsey (Aug 26, 2002)

I would expect the lone leleupi on top of a shelldweller and a rockdweller to be a bit much for a 29g tank once everyone is fullgrown, but stranger things have worked for some people.

-Rick (the armchair aquarist)


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## mx22 (Jul 13, 2009)

Going back to the original cookie cutter recepie - would it be possible to remove one type of fish and keep the other two?

Neolamprologus leleupi - 1 pair (i know, i know, but wife really wants them) 
'Lamprologus' occelatus - 1 trio

Thank You!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't think I'd put leleupi and shellies in a small tank like that. I was advised not to do it in a 72" x 18" tank. I'm planning on pulling one or the other as soon as the leleupi start attacking!


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I do not keep leleupi with small shellys any more full stop. Mine have always bullied small shellys horribly whatever size the tank when they are about 4" even singles. (As they get to 5" the male can try an claim a far larger tank than this) I found a shelly as big and nasty as Lepidiolamprologus hecqui pair is a match for a single leleupi in a larger tank. I think Occies would be bullied and prob killed in a small tank by a leleupi pair, anyone tried this?
Not seen

"Temperament: Mildly Aggressive
Conspecific Temperament: Mildly Aggressive"
In all leleupi I have kept (except 2" babies) I would rate it rather higher in the aggression stakes than that. :wink: Higher than Julidochromis regani which is given aggressive on both.

But to be fair on the species profile it says "They should not be kept with most shell dwellers, as they have a habit of sticking their faces in the shells to suck out the brood. They've been known to (fatally) pull female shell dwellers out of the shells to achieve this."

Seems to be some sort of a contradiction there between that and the cookie cutter? :lol:


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## Gerry Binczik (Jan 30, 2005)

The solution seems obvious to me:

"Dear wife, I really want _Neolamprologus leleupi_, too! But unfortunately all of the folks in the know are saying a 29g tank is just too small for them. Now, if we only had a *larger tank* to work with..."

:wink:

Gerry


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## mx22 (Jul 13, 2009)

Gerry - nice idea, but there is really no space for a larger tank. Well, leleupi goes off the list for good; back to the drawing board...

Thanks!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If she wants bright colors and nothing else will do, you might need to look outside of the African rift lake fish. Leleupi is about the brightest Tang, and the tank is too small for Malawi IMO. Maybe CA or SA?


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## Rick_Lindsey (Aug 26, 2002)

If colour is all that matters you may be able to do ps. saulosi, but you'll be missing out on the joy of lake tang...

Ocellatus gold are fairly colorful little guys though... do you have any at the LFS you can show her? When my wife saw them she immediately said "you should get those!", and she's really not into my fishkeephing habit .

-Rick (the armchair aquarist, who's wife wants him to make a tank with L. ocellatus, Eretmodus Cyanosticus, and Syno. Petricola... how much better does it get?)


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## mx22 (Jul 13, 2009)

Went through all the local LFS, none have Ocellatus... Anyone can suggest a good shop in Brooklyn, NY that stocks them? Found Julidochromis regani though in one of the stores.


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

I can see leleupi being insanely aggressive in a pair situation but I have kept single leleupi in many of my setups and many with shellies such as similis, occies and stappersi. I have never had any aggression issues with those groups as long as I didn't try to keep paired leleupi. I did have one case where an adult leleupi I was keeping relentlessly, and eventually fatally, pursued a prized Lamprologus Furcifer of mine. But, other than shellie fry, no problems in shellie/leleupi aggression. If anything the occies would not tolerate the leleupi near their shells. I'm not saying everyone else is wrong, I'm actually more or less surprised to hear that leleupi and shellies don't coexist well.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I've never had good luck with stores having the fish I want...unless it was labs, red zebras or demasoni, LOL. So I either order online (lower cost/fish offsets the $50 shipping) or go to one of the hatcheries in our area to pick them up. It's a 2-3 hour drive. I think there is a local group going up later in the year.


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

Isn't "Reserve STock Cichlids" in the NJ NY area? Man, I've been wanting to order from those guys.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yes, but certainly not in Brooklyn like mx22's criteria, LOL!


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## mx22 (Jul 13, 2009)

Just looked up Reserve Stock Cichlids,they are good 2 hours drive out of Brooklyn. Definitely something to keep in mind, yet they are rather far for casual drive...

Went to New World Aquarium in Manhattan earlier today. They actually have the best selection of cichlids out of all the stores I've visited to date. There was one Ocellatus in one of the smaller tanks, but they will be getting more eventually. Well I have a few week anyway, just started cycling the tank, hopefully they will have them when I'm all set.

Would a tank of 3 Ocellatus and 2 Calvus work? Or should I replace Calvus with a pair of Julidochromis?

Thank You!


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Either tank would work fine as far as one species aggression to the other I think, as long as you get one male and two female occies and a dwarf Julie (ornatus or transcriptus) (The larger Julies would be a bit more of a risk but the medium Julidochromis dickfeldi might be ok too but not sure not tried it with shellys myself.)
Calvus might be easier than julies to get a compatible male and female, as they seem for me to be more accepting of a forced pairing and for them not to fall out when moved but I think either is a good plan. :thumb:


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Note Reserve Stock is not open to the public and you would need to go with a local group like a club that has pre-arranged a trip with the owner.


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## mx22 (Jul 13, 2009)

Bringing this back up... Is it OK to first introduce a pair of Calvus into the tank and then in a week or so a trio of Ocellatus?

P.S. Tried sending an email to Reserve Stock Cichlids, but not getting a response from them. When I buy fish from them, can they X males and X females? Also, has anyone from NY used them and can say if they charge same shipping prices for in-state orders?

Thank You!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

They charge the same shipping, and I don't think they have sexed fish listed on their website. Look for a vendor that has sexed fish listed. You will see that they have a higher price than "no sex specified".

When you say a pair of calvus or a trio of occies...do you mean adult fish that have produced fry together in the past?


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## mx22 (Jul 13, 2009)

Nope, I simply mean opposite sex. Basically the idea is to have male and female Calvus and one male and two females of occies.

Any leads on the retailers who sell sexed (not paired, just "sexed") fish? I've tried clciking on sponsor links above, but it doesn't look like they are selling sexed fish...

Alexei


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## Rick_Lindsey (Aug 26, 2002)

mx22 said:


> Nope, I simply mean opposite sex. Basically the idea is to have male and female Calvus and one male and two females of occies.
> 
> Any leads on the retailers who sell sexed (not paired, just "sexed") fish? I've tried clciking on sponsor links above, but it doesn't look like they are selling sexed fish...
> 
> Alexei


I think you will find that retailers selling wild fish may be willing to sex them for you, but most retailers selling tank-raised fish are selling them as juveniles, and the retailers are not likely to be willing to sex them for you.

An aquabid seller may also be willing to sex adult fish that they are selling, but i suspect many hobbiest are intimidated by the idea of venting their fish.

-Rick (the armchair aquarist)


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

We are not permitted to name vendors in the posts...only in the Reviews section. So PM me if you need a name, I think I've seen one.

One male and one female in your tank may reject (kill) each other. And you will wait and wait for them to grow out before they are old enough for you to find this out. At which time you will have to start all over and wait and wait again.

What we usually do to avoid this is buy 6 juvies of each species, let them form a pair of their own choosing, and then remove any rejected fish.


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## mx22 (Jul 13, 2009)

DJRansome said:


> What we usually do to avoid this is buy 6 juvies of each species, let them form a pair of their own choosing, and then remove any rejected fish.


So basically you suggest I should buy 6 of each of calvus/julies and occilatus? Should I buy them all at once (not really all at once, but with 1-2 week interval so that tank cycles)? Or maybe the better strategy is to buy 6 of one type, wait until pair forms, sell the rest and then buy second type of speices? In that case, whom should I start with first - ocellatus or calvus/julies?

Thank You!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'd buy them all at once after cycling the tank with ammonia until you can add 4-5ppm daily and have ammonia=0 and nitrite=0 readings.

Yes, six of each. That's what I have in my 125G...six of everything except cyps=20 and the caudo's are 2 pair. Waiting for everyone else to grow up and pair up, LOL.

Note that I have been waiting 1.5 years for my calvus to pair up so far...they grow slow. So waiting for each species to pair before adding another would be no fun!


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