# A recent ORDER



## LaurenManzano (Aug 3, 2008)

This is a bit off topic. But I'd like to share with you my recent experience with someone I've purchased fish from. The species is Lepidiolamprologus hecqui "mbita" I paid the money for about 15 fish and paid OVERNIGHT FEXED which cost me 78.00. When I receive the box, I opened it and found that the person just packed the fish in a box with THICK PAPERR WRAP, I received it was during a short heat spell BUT THE NIGHTS WHERE VERY COLD, but my issue is, WHY ON EARTH would you just pack them in a box with THICK PAPER WRAP instead of using STYROFOAM, sure the person attached a heating pack to the top of the box... BUT when I open the box both bags of fish were ice cold and DEAD!... So, he refunds me for the 15 fish, but I'm out 78.00 which to me,, he really didn't take the time to care for the shipping of the fish and left me with a 78.00 dollar shipping bill. I DISPUTED THIS WITH FEDEX AND OF COURSE THE FELT THEY WERE NOT TO BLAME BECAUSE OF HOW THEY WERE SHIPPED. NOT ONCE DID THIS PERSON OFFER TO AT LEAST PAY FOR PART OF THE SHIPPING.. I UNDERSTAND SHIPPING IS NON REFUNDABLE BUT THE WAY HE PACKAGED THE FISH CLEARLY THIS WAS HIS FAULT THEY DIED DURING TRANSPORT.
I JUST WANTED TO SHARE THIS WITH EVERYONE..
LAUREN

:x :fish: :dancing: :roll:


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

Stories like this are why I have never bought fish that needed to be shipped...

that really sucks. Hard, Fast, and often.


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## fiupntballr (Jul 7, 2004)

This sounds exactly how my brother received his shell dwellers. I am wondering if it was the same person on aquabid. If you did get them there make sure post a review! I would also hold him responsible for shipping costs because he did not do his due diligence when packing which is part of the shipping process.

BTW I have always had great experience with quality vendors that prefer airline cargo shipping. I have never had an issue using southwest of delta.


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## kiriyama (Oct 20, 2010)

I have had fish shipped 3 times now and it's been ok even when the cold snaps were on. Twice from a store and once from a private breeder, funnily enough it was the private breeder that was hesitant because of the cold weather so made me wonder if the stores don't care as much, one of the comps I received looked almost gone but it all turned out ok in the end, sorry to hear about your loss :?


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## watercrawl (Sep 24, 2010)

If you paid through Paypal, I would dispute the doodoo out of that.


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

nodima said:


> Stories like this are why I have never bought fish that needed to be shipped...


I don't know. That would severely limit what I could stock in my tanks. I had some fish shipped to me (air cargo) for the first time earlier this week. All of the fish made it just fine. Like buying anything else, just try to be sure you're dealing with someone you can trust before you hand over the money.


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

Fair point, guess I am lucky to have a good LFS and many breeders in my area. Although, my search for Female Kigoma Frontosa has been fruitless.


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

hahaha...that's why I bought your shellies, Lauren, instead of some over some online shop!!! :thumb: 
(P.S. She does have really nice shellies for sale...)


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

I've purchased fish and had them shipped many times. No issues. The few bad incidents shouldn't dissuade people from purchasing from good, well respected retailers.


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## Tshethar (Jul 20, 2009)

Sorry to hear about this--hopefully one more person commiserating helps a little.  I think the idea about disputing through Paypal is an excellent option. I've had good luck with fish through two site sponsors via air cargo as well as two individuals through Aquabid and priority mail, but in both of the latter cases they advertised professional shipping methods and were experienced sellers.

On the other hand, I tried buying a used canister filter and a UV sterilizer from a guy on Ebay, and he ended up first not shipping because--he eventually wrote back--he didn't have the money (!), and then he ended up sending both in nothing but a thin, beat-up cardboard box with a few peanuts here and there, and there was tons of damage, broken glass, etc. Even though his auction was "no returns," etc., I opened a case with Ebay, got a label from them to ship it back, and a guy on the phone went so far as to refund my shipping cost as well. Not sure what Aquabid or Paypal might do, but it doesn't hurt to ask. And save any email correspondence that might help your case!


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## tranced (Jan 11, 2006)

i would agree dont let a bad experience taint things for you, some of the most exciting fish i own were shipped to me, it really opens up doors if u know what i mean.


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

Had a bad experience onse but it was Christmas (A stupid time to order fish on my part!  ) and Southwest lost them for 5 days. I was severely bummed because the supplier had sold me the Biggest Wild Zambian Calvus I or he had ever seen (7inches). Unfortunately I only got to see pics of him because Southwest unpacked them dead so I wouldn't have to go down to the a-port.

To me the seller has to be as reputable as any general contractor should be. Guys that will ship foolishly usually don't have a problem stretching the truth about what your fish are or where they came from either.

My guy has always been able to tell me what lakeside distributor he got them from in Africa or where the fish he bred them from came from along with pics of actual fish. Love his business for that and he'll always get mine first if he's got the stock.


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

On a somehat related note. I kinda widh they would bring those "breather-bags" back.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

That seller should of refunded every single penny you spent including shipping cost b/c those species of cichlid can be shipped 2 day air shipping easy.Anyone who ships fish without styro foam should be thrown outside with no clothes in extreme heat and cold with nothing but a cardboard box.I would write a fitting review for that seller and make sure their name is known so people will know.Also this will make that person either start shipping fish right or not at All.Don't let this bad experience discourage you though from getting fish shipped to you.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I've had trouble shipping overnight with Fedex. I had losses due to bag water getting too cold. And I used stryrofoam and heat packs. Keep in mind that at 30,000 feet, it doesn't matter what the temp is on the ground. If the box is in an unheated cargo hold, it's going to be subjected to very cold temps. I've not had the same troubles with USPS. I'm not promoting USPS because they're far from perfect, just making the point that I haven't had the cold bagwater problems with them like with Fedex. Same box, same packing.

Fedex shouldn't even be used unless you've gotten approval from them to ship live fish and the packaging has been inspected and approved. They may then put them in some type of heated compartment, not sure. I had some shipped into me from a professional breeder via Fedex and it's the only time I had cold bagwater and fish losses. And they used styrofoam. Paper is actually a good insulator, btw. I'd suggest not agreeing to accept fish Fedex unless the shipper has been approved by Fedex to send them.

And final thought, it's the shipper that contracts with the shipping carrier and should deal with any shipping problems, but for some reason the online fish sale industry has decided they won't and pretty much take the attitude that it's out of their control and not their problem. Well, I don't know of any fish buyers who can control the freight carriers either. Almost no online fish seller, private or pro, refunds shipping. It's very rare.

Here's some info from ebay's site, for instance. I wish online fish sellers accepted the same responsibliity. I think they shirk it because all others do also. Although to be fair, there are some that will work with the buyer to resolve problems. Still falls short of accepting responsiblity though.

_Remember, the *seller is responsible for the item until it is in the buyer's possession*. eBay protects buyers if items arrive damaged, and sellers should consider insuring their items to protect themselves against loss._

Because of my personal experience, I'd never agree to have fish shipped in Fedex even in the heat of summer. For the $78 you probably could have had them shipped same day air freight. It's a better way, and the only way that I ship fish now.

Just throwing in my .02


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

No problem with using Fed Ex Air either overnight or 2nd day Air to ship fish for me.USPS uses Fed Ex planes for many of their Express shipments too.I use thick styro boxes I get from my Vet and heat pack/s if needed such as 40HR for overnight and 72 for 2 day.Also I do NOT write Live fish on the box b/c it most of the time brings negative attention.I think it is crazy for sellers to put blame on the shipper when the package arrives on time, when should be blaming themselves for their bad packing. All buyers should push for sellers to guarantee the fish including shipping cost certainly for overnight service and it arrives on time.Also air cargo is not guaranteed same day and can be delayed and I know Delta says that it is the shippers responsibility to pack for 48 Hours of travel.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Also air cargo is not guaranteed same day and can be delayed


True, but there are different service levels that you can pay for just like with other carriers. Get it there early and ship 'Next Flight Guaranteed' and it'll get there same day. If it's delayed, they refund shipping costs, so that pretty much guarantees as they don't want to refund money. But you also have to make sure the freight office at the receiving end is open long enough to allow pickup when it arrives. Takes a little managing, but is easily doable depending on origin and destination.

Everyone should keep in mind that it usually (if not always) is against the rules and regulations of the carriers to not disclose the fact that you're shipping live, tropical fish in water.


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## kshafer (Dec 31, 2005)

Air cargo is nice. The fish are in the box just a few hours vs. overnight. The downside is if you don't live near a major airport the drive to the airport to pick up the package adds to your total cost. I bought 10 Cyp Specklebacks this summer. They cost $16 each + $65 air freight to Detroit airport + $75 (using the rate my company reimburses for mileage)for me to drive to the airport and back. Two died within a few hours and I got credit for them. But now I'm dividing the total cost by 8 instead of 10. Three later died over a period of two weeks that I could not get credit for. If you divide my total cost by the 5 survivors, I've got $50 per fish invested in these guys. Another issue besides packaging is the size of the fish when shipped. I think the 10 I bought were too small at 1.25". Recently I bought 10 Cyp Tri-Color from a different breeder and had them shipped overnight to my door. They arrived in excellent condition and continue the same. They were at least 1.5". I can't help but think I got a bad deal on the first one.


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

If the fish are packed poorly, the seller is negligent. If the package is handled roughly, the carrier is negligent. These are both situations that are out of your control. Consequently, it seems obvious to me that the best course of action is always to minimize the amount of time that the fish spend exposed to the weather, in a bag full of dirty water, while getting tossed around by shipping employeeÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s that just want to get through the work day. As the saying goes, Ã¢â‚¬Å"Plan for the worst, and hope for the best.Ã¢â‚¬Â


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## kshafer (Dec 31, 2005)

I know that size difference is not the only factor to consider but the fish that came in larger were night and day better than the smaller ones. The larger ones eat more aggressively and are more active in general. Both groups were quarantned in the same 29 gallon tank (at different times). The smaller ones spent most of their time huddled in the corner where the larger ones use the whole tank.


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## Stellaluna (May 8, 2006)

I, like many, would not have the fish I have if I did not purchase shipped fish. I would also be overrun with my own fish if I did not ship them!

However, the very best way to improve standards is through reviews. I personally read all reviews before choosing a seller, and they influence me a great deal. This person is going to step up their game very quickly if they lose business from receiving poor reviews.

I'd definitely check with Paypal about it, too. I try to stick with shippers who use Paypal for this very reason.

So sorry you had to go through this. It is a real shame.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

This is coming from someone who ships orders of less than $150 worth of fish.Most fish and Tanganyikan included can be shipped 2 day Air mail with No issues if they are packed right.You can use 3 times as much water as overnight shipments for at least 1/2 the cost.the fish need to go without being fed for 24 HR,ammonia remover in the shipping water,pure O2,and heat pack/s if needed.I l fill the bags 1/2 way with water and the rest with O2 and have the bags on their side to increase O2 surface exchange.The only time I feel overnight is needed is for cyprichromis ,some xenos ,large adults or extreme weather conditions.I can ship Xenotilapia ochrogenys juvies 2 day shipping with no losses.I think some people use the excuse that Tanganyikans are extremely fragile so they can pack sloppy.

The reason I do Not mark my boxes Live Tropical Fish is b/c a USPS worker had the nerve to toss one of my boxes several times in the air right in from of me. I looked like I was going to toss him around so he quit real quick.Also I had a box go to Florida with USPS in the middle of Summer that was received with cold water that was marked fish but luckily they made it.Since I started not marking the boxes at all I have had No Issues and many very good shippers on AB say the same.


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

fiupntballr said:


> ...BTW I have always had great experience with quality vendors that prefer airline cargo shipping. I have never had an issue using southwest of delta.


Me too: on large & expensive orders, I have use quality vendors who ship cargo (NFG) and have had many good experiences. A great way to buy fish.

Sorry you had a bad experience.

Russ


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