# Setback!



## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

GAH! We had a VERY unfortunate and frustrating setback this evening in getting our new 125 gallon aquarium set up to receive fish soon! The fish we got from the local pet store to cycle for us started dropping like flies... we figured it was from the ammonia spike, but NO, they had ich REALLY bad (we used sand that had silt stirred up, so the water was pretty cloudy... that's why we didn't notice it earlier)! Well, we got them all out of there, turned up the heat and threw in a ton of aquarium salt... any of those ich creepies should be REAL unhappy about now!! If not, they will be when they can't find a host to infest!

Here's the story: We have had this aquarium going for about a week and a half with tetras of the serpae and black neon variety (whatever fish was cheapest at the local pet store). We planned to get some Stability cycle enhancer stuff 7 days before our desired fish were to arrive (we planned to order them on the 21st). We had a black neon or two die on us for the last 3 days... we figured it was due to the expected ammonia spike, but tonight our water finally cleared enough for us to see they were HEAVILY infested with ich! JUST the black neons, the serpaes were spotless and we hadn't lost a single one of them... lost like 7 of the black neons! We got rid of all of them this evening and now the tank's standing there empty.

We had placed some sand from our 72 gallon bowfront (it's been up and running for about 4 years now) in the filters and on the substrate and we put one rock from our 72 gallon in the 125. We hope that any bacteria that are growing in there won't die before tomorrow evening when we can get some liquid ammonia in there!

Anyway... can anyone give us some suggestions on what we should do at this point? How long does ich live without a host? We plan to still use the Stability for 7 days prior to getting the fish we're ordering, so we'd have to have it in there by next Tuesday. Would the ich creepies be starved to death by then so we can add more cheapie fish from the pet store on Tuesday and use them to keep the bacteria introduced by the Stability alive? We save $80 shipping fees if we can order our desired fish by the 21st, we'd REALLY like to take advantage of this offer, 'cause our order's gonna be about $200 just for the fish! :lol: ANY hope at all that we can have this tank healthy by the 21st?

In His love,


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

If it were me, I'd back off of the commitment to get these fish by the 21st. I understand you'll save $80, 
but you could easily lose that or more if the fish start dying on you. I'd slow down and get the tank 
cycled properly (fishless), cure the ick by treating with ick medicine and get the tank off on the right foot.

Having said all of that, if you have to go forward, then here's what I'd do.

--Start with a 50% water change.

--Stop adding salt.

--Start adding ammonia and finish the cycling fishless. Let me know if you need tips on what method has worked for me.

--Use some filter media from your established tank in your new tank's filters to kickstart things.

--Add a good ick medication. Here's some info. It should only take a week at most to clear it up with no fish in the tank to host the parasites.

--Keep the temp up a bit. This will accelerate the ick life cycle and encourage the nitrifying bacteria population.

--While all of this is going on, check the water parameters and work to get them within a good range for the new fish. (pH, GH, KH)

--Do a series of 30-40% water changes starting a couple of days before getting the new fish. This will reduce nitrates.

--Don't do a massive water change as I've seen this disrupt newly established bacteria colonies and result in a brief nitrite spike. Not what you need right when you're ready to add fish.

Let us know how it goes. We can all learn from it.


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

Tim,

Thanks so much for taking the time to give such excellent advice! We figured that, without the fish host, it would probably take less time to get rid of the ich buggies. hehe We decided to go with the salt and heat plan to deal with the infestation. We got the idea from the article here on cichlid-forum. We planned to use the bacteria sludge from the bio-mass on our 72 gallon tonight and adding some ammonia (with no perfumes or detergents) at the same time. Is that right?

We're working on upping the temperature to about 88 degrees... does that sound right? You say do a series of 30-40% water changes... how many would you suggest?

We would LOVE some tips on the fishless cycling that's worked for you! This setback has been really upsetting... but we're trying to keep our eyes on the prize, those beautiful fishes to take care of! :fish:  We'll definitely let you know how things are going.

In His love,


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> We planned to use the bacteria sludge from the bio-mass on our 72 gallon tonight and adding some ammonia (with no perfumes or detergents) at the same time. Is that right?


Clean media, meaning free of sludge, would be best. Gunked up media favors a different type of 
bacteria than the ammonia and nitrite converters. The gunk isn't really needed since you're adding 
ammonia from a bottle. Gunked up media will be loaded with what are called heterotrophic bacteria. 
They're the ones that break down sludge into ammonia. You need the nitrifiyers that convert the 
ammonia to nitrite and then to nitrate. If you have media in the filters that stayed relatively clean 
because a prefilter caught the sludge, then I'd use it. If not, and it's all gunky, then use what you have.

The ammonia needs to be basically a solution of ammonia and water and nothing else, yes. It might 
list 'chelating agent', and that's ok, but avoid surfactants and dyes, and perfumes, and anything that 
foams up when you shake the bottle. Walmart or Ace Hardware would be good places to try.



> You say do a series of 30-40% water changes... how many would you suggest?


Do those when cycling is complete, meaning ammonia and nitrite have spiked and are now zero. Test 
nitrate and do enough water changes to get nitrate down to 20ppm or so.



> We would LOVE some tips on the fishless cycling that's worked for you!


Add an initial dose of ammonia to bring the level up to 2ppm.

Test every 24 hours, and if/when the ammonia level drops, add enough to bring it back to 2ppm.

You'll soon be at a point where ammonia drops to 0 after 24 hours and you're adding 2ppm daily. 
That's when you start testing for nitrite (while still adding the 2ppm of ammonia daily)

When after 24 hours both ammonia and nitrite are zero (all has been converted to nitrate in that time),
then test to determine the level of nitrate and start doing the water changes.

Keep adding the ammonia every 24 hours until about 48 hours before adding fish. This gives you a 
chance to do a couple of more water changes to bring nitrates down without feeding the cycle by 
adding ammonia. It also ensures that the ammonia and nitrite are down to zero before adding those 
new fish. The bacteria won't starve in that time as is sometimes believed. I've done this many times 
as have others.

I'd still suggest not adding the salt. it's not needed to deal with the ick and if overdosed could disrupt 
more than it helps.

Regarding the temp, 88 is fine, but don't go too high. There is a temp range for the bacteria you're 
trying to establish. Without fish in the tank, you really need to do little to effectively deal with the ick 
problem in the time frame that you have. Time alone will deal with them. I'd make the establishment 
of the nitrifying bacteria the priority, and make sure conditions suit them.

That's about it. I hope it's clear and let me know if you have any more questions.


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

> _Me: _We planned to use the bacteria sludge from the bio-mass on our 72 gallon tonight and adding some ammonia (with no perfumes or detergents) at the same time. Is that right?





> _prov356: _Clean media, meaning free of sludge, would be best. Gunked up media favors a different type of
> bacteria than the ammonia and nitrite converters. The gunk isn't really needed since you're adding
> ammonia from a bottle. Gunked up media will be loaded with what are called heterotrophic bacteria.
> They're the ones that break down sludge into ammonia. You need the nitrifiyers that convert the
> ...


Oops... too late.  We read an article about jump starting the cycle on this forum: "Squeezings from a filter sponge ("sponge mud" is very rich in bacteria)" in the article about Fishless Cycling in the Library section. So, we squeezed our bio-mass from our Cascade filter from the 72 gallon onto the bio wheels of our Emporer 350 and some into the water.

There seems to be quite a bit of slightly confusing information, you say this, the next person says that kinda thing. hehe New folks can sure get confused. :lol: We would try another filter cartridge, but we'd JUST put a new one in last week, so I don't know how much bacteria would be on it already. We tried putting the one we'd just taken out of the 72 gallon into the 125 filter, but I guess the size difference (72 gallon has a smaller filter, thus different sized media) didn't agree with it... the bio-wheel stopped turning, so we took it out and threw it away.



> _prov356: _The ammonia needs to be basically a solution of ammonia and water and nothing else, yes. It might
> list 'chelating agent', and that's ok, but avoid surfactants and dyes, and perfumes, and anything that
> foams up when you shake the bottle. Walmart or Ace Hardware would be good places to try.


We went to Ace Hardware and got the Ace Janitorial Strength Ammonia. It was all we could find that didn't have detergents and stuff in it.



> _Me: _You say do a series of 30-40% water changes... how many would you suggest?





> _prov356_ Do those when cycling is complete, meaning ammonia and nitrite have spiked and are now zero. Test
> nitrate and do enough water changes to get nitrate down to 20ppm or so.


Gotcha, thanks! 



> _Me: _We would LOVE some tips on the fishless cycling that's worked for you!





> _prov356: _Add an initial dose of ammonia to bring the level up to 2ppm.
> 
> Test every 24 hours, and if/when the ammonia level drops, add enough to bring it back to 2ppm.
> 
> ...


Ack... more disparate information! The Fishless Cycling article said to raise it to 5ppm! You don't think that'll mess anything up, do ya? "Addition of X amount of NH3 drops until Ammonia level of 5ppm is achieved. This X amount of drops has to be added daily until NO2 spike. Afterwards follow up with Â½ X (from previous step) amount of NH3 drops daily until NO2 is 0ppm causing NO3 peak. ~50% water change should follow -> cycled tank. (this recipe uses regular Pure Ammonia 4-15%)" It took us 7 capfuls of the ammonia (10% solution) to get to 5ppm." Should we let it drop to 2ppm and then maintain that, or keep it at 5?



> _prov356: _I'd still suggest not adding the salt. it's not needed to deal with the ick and if overdosed could disrupt
> more than it helps.
> 
> Regarding the temp, 88 is fine, but don't go too high. There is a temp range for the bacteria you're
> ...


Yeah, we haven't put any more salt in. We only put the salt we did because we hadn't, at that time, decided to remove ALL the fish. We still had some serpae tetras in there that looked completely clean and healthy. But, after awhile we figured we'd take them out too, so they wouldn't be made miserable hosts to the ich plus we didn't know if maybe they had it but it wasn't showing yet, etc....

We've raised the temperature to 88 (which is as high as our heaters will go anyway. hehe). Establishing bacteria is DEFINITELY our main focus at this moment. :lol: I think we missed the window of opportunity to order the Stability (unless we can get the fishstore guy to overnight it... not sure we'd be saving anything over buying bottles of the SafeStart at the local pet store at that point, though. So, we'll probably just get the SafeStart (which is what used to be called BioSpira). When should we add that?

Thanks so much for your time and advice, we REALLY appreciate it! 

In His love,


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

Oh... I had another concern you might be able to help me with...

We bought a piece of Mopani wood from the local pet store... had a Zoo Med label on it, I think. Anyway... we soaked it til the water was clear (pouring the previous day's water out and covering it with new water daily) and then stuck it into the tank. For some reason, it now has a sort of clear slime on it. Plus, since we poured ammonia in the tank, it's probably soaking that up as we speak... is this a ruined piece of wood, or will it be ok? Is that slime a bad sign?

I LOVE the look of Mopani wood, I'd like to have a nice big chunk as the centerpiece of the tank! 

In His love,


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Oops... too late. Embarrassed We read an article about jump starting the cycle on this forum: "Squeezings from a filter sponge ("sponge mud" is very rich in bacteria)"


The confusion is understandable. It is very rich in bacteria, but not necessarily nitrifying bacteria. I've 
research this quite a bit myself, and the nitrifiers reside on surfaces in what's called a biofilm. It's a 
very hard, thin layer of micro-organisms of various sorts. Best to move those surfaces that harbor 
those bacteria, not squeeze mulm into a tank. You'll get some, sure, but not as much as you could. 
The heterotrophic bacteria play the important role of breaking down the uneaten food, etc into 
ammonia and then the nitrifiers take over. No harm that you've done what you've done, but if you can 
move some biomedia too, then I'd go ahead and do that.



> Ack... more disparate information! The Fishless Cycling article said to raise it to 5ppm!


I know the article well and refute the 5ppm constantly. It's way too much. No harm, but will only lengthen 
the process when that's the last thing you need. I've stocked tanks after using much less many 
times. I gave you 2ppm based on my experience. Unless you're fully stocking to the point of 
overstocking with adult fish, 5ppm is just not necessary. These bacteria can double quickly when 
they need to. Just follow the practice of not feeding for 24-48 hours after fish arrive and let the 
bacteria adjust, if they need to. You'll be testing ammonia and nitrite for several days after adding 
the new fish (at least I think that's a good practice), and can do water changes, if needed. I always 
recommend having something like Prime or Ammolock on hand, just in case, to detox ammonia and 
nitrite, if needed.



> When should we add that?


If you're using media from an established tank, you don't need it. I've not used it, so if you go with it 
just follow the label instructions. It can't hurt, but might not do much for you either. Experiences with 
these products are usually mixed.



> We bought a piece of Mopani wood from the local pet store...


I love and use mopani too. I'd just take it out and scrub it with a scrub brush. Probably some 
organic or fungus, but not harmful. It won't soak up ammonia, so won't hurt your cycling. It'll probably 
go away on it's own in time.

HTH


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

prov356 said:


> No harm that you've done what you've done, but if you can
> move some biomedia too, then I'd go ahead and do that.


Ok, our biomedia has been in for a week... is that enough time to be useful? We tried putting the old pad into the filter in the 125, but it made the bio-wheel stop turning for some reason, so we took it out and threw it away. We have a Cascade 300 in that 72 gallon also... will try that media.  If it doesn't fit, or makes the bio-wheel stop turning again, etc... what do you suggest we do with the filter media?



> I know the article well and refute the 5ppm constantly. It's way too much. No harm, but will only lengthen
> the process when that's the last thing you need. I've stocked tanks after using much less many
> times. I gave you 2ppm based on my experience. Unless you're fully stocking to the point of
> overstocking with adult fish, 5ppm is just not necessary. These bacteria can double quickly when
> ...


Ok... will let the ammonia settle down to 2ppm and then maintain that. Will they get aggressive after not being fed for 1 or 2 days? After all, the guy at the fish store also fasts them before sending them for a day or two.... so that's 4 days of no eating!



> If you're using media from an established tank, you don't need it. I've not used it, so if you go with it
> just follow the label instructions. It can't hurt, but might not do much for you either. Experiences with
> these products are usually mixed.


Biospira (now Tetra SafeStart) seems to have the best track record. Since our filter media has been kinda unreliable so far, I think we'll probably add that too, just to be safe. 



> I love and use mopani too. I'd just take it out and scrub it with a scrub brush. Probably some
> organic or fungus, but not harmful. It won't soak up ammonia, so won't hurt your cycling. It'll probably
> go away on it's own in time.


Isn't it GORGEOUS wood? :thumb: Thanks for the advice, we were pretty worried about our little hunk of wood. 

Thanks again for ALL your help! It's so wonderful for experienced hobbyists like yourself to take the time to help us newbies! :thumb:



> HTH


Ok, I'm acronymically challenged.  What's HTH mean?

In His love,


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Ok, our biomedia has been in for a week... is that enough time to be useful?


Yes, and whatever you can do will be helpful. And keep in mind that it doesn't have to go in the filter. 
You can attach it to an intake tube where it'll get good flow past it.



> Ok... will let the ammonia settle down to 2ppm and then maintain that. Will they get aggressive after not being fed for 1 or 2 days? After all, the guy at the fish store also fasts them before sending them for a day or two.... so that's 4 days of no eating!


They'll probably be stressed the first day from the move. Try feeding day 2, if you'd like, as long as 
there are no ammonia spikes. It's usually a good idea not to feed the first day regardless of cycling.
Fish can go for very long periods without food just fine. 3-4 days is no big deal. Resulting aggression
would depend on age and species, etc. Usually aggression in a new tank is more from establishing 
pecking order and territories rather than crankiness from not eating. I'm not sure if there's really any 
truth to the 'aggression from being hungry and cranky' idea. I certainly get that way though. 

What are you getting? I keep meaning to ask. And are they juveniles?



> Thanks again for ALL your help! It's so wonderful for experienced hobbyists like yourself to take the time to help us newbies!


Your welcome and HTH means hope that helps.


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

> Yes, and whatever you can do will be helpful. And keep in mind that it doesn't have to go in the filter.
> You can attach it to an intake tube where it'll get good flow past it.


Ok, it's sitting on the substrate, leaned it up against our fluval intake... sound good?



> They'll probably be stressed the first day from the move. Try feeding day 2, if you'd like, as long as
> there are no ammonia spikes. It's usually a good idea not to feed the first day regardless of cycling.
> Fish can go for very long periods without food just fine. 3-4 days is no big deal. Resulting aggression
> would depend on age and species, etc. Usually aggression in a new tank is more from establishing
> ...


 :lol: You an' me both!  We're getting Yellow Labs (Lion's Cove 1), Giant Demasoni (Pseudotropheus "Blue Dolphin", Maingano (Melanochromis cyanaerhabdos), and Cynotilapia afra Cobue. We MIGHT also get some Pseudotropheus acei "yellow tail"... but the other 4 are definites.  They will likely be unsexed juveniles.



> Your welcome and HTH means hope that helps.


Thanks... whenever I join a new site or get into a new hobby, I gotta learn all the acronyms, there always seems to be new ones for every site and hobby. :lol:

In His love,


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Ok, it's sitting on the substrate, leaned it up against our fluval intake... sound good?


Sounds good.



> We're getting Yellow Labs (Lion's Cove 1), Giant Demasoni (Pseudotropheus "Blue Dolphin", Maingano (Melanochromis cyanaerhabdos), and Cynotilapia afra Cobue. We MIGHT also get some Pseudotropheus acei "yellow tail"... but the other 4 are definites. Grin They will likely be unsexed juveniles.


Stick with 2ppm. You don't need more. If you get near time for fish and you're still seeing nitrite, then a 
trick I've used as well as others is to drop the ammonia even more. Gives the nitrite converters a 
chance to catch up. But, see how it goes first.



> Thanks... whenever I join a new site or get into a new hobby, I gotta learn all the acronyms, there always seems to be new ones for every site and hobby.


There are. I end up Googling stuff to find out what it means, particularly some of the lingo from the 
younger ones here. Don't always know if someone's agreeing with me, or flaming me.


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

prov356 said:


> Stick with 2ppm. You don't need more. If you get near time for fish and you're still seeing nitrite, then a
> trick I've used as well as others is to drop the ammonia even more. Gives the nitrite converters a
> chance to catch up. But, see how it goes first.


OK, 24 hours after adding 5ppm to our 125 gallon aquarium, we did another test. Here are the results... please let us know what you think: Ammonia: 3ppm, Nitrite: 0, Nitrate: 0, pH: 8.4, Hardness: 150, Alkalinity: 180. It doesn't seem as if there are any bacteria yet.... wouldn't there be SOME nitrite if there were? :-?

We put a TON of sand from our established 72 gallon (it's been up and running for almost 5 years!), had like 21 fish in there for a week, etc... etc... It seems as if the ammonia's gone down, but that could be from just evaporation, right? Or am I completely misunderstanding this whole process? :-? :lol: We've now put a plastic plant from the 72 gallon, more sand, and a filter pad from our Cascade filter from the 72 into the 125. We really can't move the rocks... the fish in the 72 are using them.

Maybe the confusion is due to lacking the experience to understand the time table... would you be able to give us an estimated time table? Like: day 4, ammonia spike; day 8, nitrite spike, etc...?



> There are. I end up Googling stuff to find out what it means, particularly some of the lingo from the
> younger ones here. Don't always know if someone's agreeing with me, or flaming me.


As long as you never see, "You got pwned!" you'll be ok. :lol: You'll probably never see that, though... the majority of gamers don't have enough of a life left over to be aquarists.  (As an ex-gamer, I can say that. )

In His love,


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> would you be able to give us an estimated time table? Like: day 4, ammonia spike; day 8, nitrite spike, etc...?


You won't see ammonia drop on day 1. If the 'seeding' from the other tank is effective, then ammonia 
should drop within a few days. If not, then it'll take up to 10 days. Once ammonia drops, then look for 
nitrite. The whole process, even with using seeded media always take me about 8-10 days. A few 
days of ammonia, and then a few days of nitrite.

I think you've done all you can for now. If ammonia really did drop 2ppm that's a good sign, but you'd 
see nitrite if it did, so it's doubtful. Just give it a couple of days, and you'll know if/where it's going.


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

prov356 said:


> You won't see ammonia drop on day 1. If the 'seeding' from the other tank is effective, then ammonia
> should drop within a few days. If not, then it'll take up to 10 days. Once ammonia drops, then look for
> nitrite. The whole process, even with using seeded media always take me about 8-10 days. A few
> days of ammonia, and then a few days of nitrite.
> ...


The thing is, this shouldn't BE day 1. We have had the tank going for 2 weeks now, had 21 fish in it for 1 week, have been adding sand, etc... from an established tank. We're completely confused as to why the tank's acting like we've JUST started. :lol:

We tested the water at about noon today and the ammonia was .5ppm! Still no measurable nitrite, though! :-? We added 4 capfuls of ammonia and tested the water for ammonia again an hour later, that brought it up to 3ppm (that's the closest measurable amount to what you suggested on the test strips we're using). We're using Quick Dip strips by Jungle for Ammonia and a 5-in-1 for Nitrite, Nitrates, pH, Hardness, etc.... We're considering that they might be defective and that's an explanation for the confusing results... what do you think about that? Maybe we do have nitrites and the test strip just isn't showing them? I've suggested that we get one of those test tubes testing kits instead of the strips. We'd have to get 'em tomorrow, though... think the pet stores are closed this late on Sunday.

A couple hours later, hubby decided to go ahead andshake up and dump the bottle of Tetra SafeStart (BioSpira), the 8.45oz bottle that is meant to treat 75 gallon aquariums. The sticker on the bottom of the bottle read, "Sell By 4/10", so it seems to be a fresh bottle.

So, I guess now all there is for us to do is try a new method of testing and then just sit back and pray.  Thanks again for you taking the time to give us wise counsel!

In His love,


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

We're starting to see some hope at the end of the tunnel. :lol:

I checked the ammonia about noon today and it came up .25 (after adding 4 capfuls last night, bringing it up to 3ppm), I added 4 more capfuls of ammonia and re-tested around 1pm and it was back up to 3ppm. We tested for nitrites and nitrates around 6pm and here's our results: Nitrites: 1, Nitrates: 10. Does this sound better, Tim? What sort of numbers are we looking for to determine when the nitrite has "spiked"?

In His love,


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

To make it easy, just test for both ammonia and nitrite 24 hours after adding the 3ppm of ammonia. Don't add ammonia any more often than once very 24 hours. So, just pick a time in the evening to first test, then add more ammonia to bring it back to 3ppm. A couple of days of that will give a better view of what's going on. Sounds like you're pushing more ammonia as soon as you see that it's dropped.

But, what I can tell is that the ammonia converters seem to be in full force, so now we just need to see what the nitrite converters are doing. A couple of days of test results will tell. The nitrite converters can take longer. It'll spike and seem like it's never going to drop, then drop suddenly.

How much time do we have before fish arrive?


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

prov356 said:


> To make it easy, just test for both ammonia and nitrite 24 hours after adding the 3ppm of ammonia. Don't add ammonia any more often than once very 24 hours. So, just pick a time in the evening to first test, then add more ammonia to bring it back to 3ppm. A couple of days of that will give a better view of what's going on. Sounds like you're pushing more ammonia as soon as you see that it's dropped.
> 
> But, what I can tell is that the ammonia converters seem to be in full force, so now we just need to see what the nitrite converters are doing. A couple of days of test results will tell. The nitrite converters can take longer. It'll spike and seem like it's never going to drop, then drop suddenly.
> 
> How much time do we have before fish arrive?


We're going to order the fish on Saturday if the water's ok for 'em. Since FedEx doesn't deliver on weekends and especially not Sundays, they probably won't be shipped til Monday, so we'd probably expect them on Tuesday, yeah? However, we're thinking that if by Saturday the tank's STILL having issues.... well, it's nice to save $80 when you can, but not at the detriment of fishie lives and the $350 order! :lol: Does it seem a wise step to put a time of Saturday before making the order to say, "If the tank's not done cycling by THIS time, we'll just put off the order."? Or, should we go ahead and make the order trusting that all will be well by Tuesday?

We've only been adding ammonia once per day. We added some at noon yesterday, so will see if we need to add more at noon today. Is that a good time or should we wait til evening when hubby gets home?

In His love,


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

Well, I checked the Ammonia around 1pm today. It came out about .25 ppm (from 3ppm yesterday at 1pm). I added another 4 capfuls and it came back up to 3ppm when tested at about 6pm. We had 3ppm nitrites and 10 ppm nitrates. So, it's starting to look very promising! 

In His love,


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## cindylou (Oct 22, 2008)

Wow all I did was put filter media from my other tanks and after 2 weeks dropped in more filter media drove to the fish store, bought the fish and all is well... :fish: :fish: :fish: I had a slight ammonia spike, did a water change and hopefully go this weekend and buy the rest of the fish to stock the tank... :thumb: Is there any where in this forum we are allowed to give a plug to a real knowledgeable fish store that we found in the Cleveland area? :dancing:


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

cindylou said:


> Wow all I did was put filter media from my other tanks and after 2 weeks dropped in more filter media drove to the fish store, bought the fish and all is well... :fish: :fish: :fish: I had a slight ammonia spike, did a water change and hopefully go this weekend and buy the rest of the fish to stock the tank... :thumb: Is there any where in this forum we are allowed to give a plug to a real knowledgeable fish store that we found in the Cleveland area? :dancing:


Glad to hear you had such an easy time of it, Cindy! :thumb: We're getting like $300+ worth of fish, so we want to be REAL sure about the quality if our water!  I feel MUCH better now that we're seeing some nitrite movement! I'm sure we'll be ready by Saturday!

The fella who's selling us the fish has suggested getting this stuff called Special Blend to throw in as we're floating the bags just to ease my mind. He says it's pretty stinky, but does an amazing job! It's what he uses for his tanks. :fish:

In His love,


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> We're getting like $300+ worth of fish, so we want to be REAL sure about the quality if our water!


Wise move, I agree. Don't throw caution to the wind with new fish. Be sure. Ammonia and nitrite can do long term damage even if it doesn't kill outright. Just because they live, doesn't mean all went fine.

You don't need a bacterial starter for a tank that's fishless cycled to 3ppm. Some shopkeepers and breeders aren't up to speed on fishless cycling and may not realize that. I did some research and wasn't impressed with what I found on that particular product. I'd save my $$, and not bother with it. but that's just my .02  .

I wouldn't order fish if nitrite is still above 0. It can take up to 3 weeks for it to drop without using seeded media like you have done. When using seeded media, it takes less time, but still may take several days. I think it's going to be close. I'd probably drop the amount of ammonia that you're adding to 2ppm. That'll help.

The time of day that you add ammonia doesn't matter, just every 24 hours. Do what works out best for you.



> Is there any where in this forum we are allowed to give a plug to a real knowledgeable fish store that we found in the Cleveland area?


Reviews section.


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

prov356 said:


> > We're getting like $300+ worth of fish, so we want to be REAL sure about the quality if our water!
> 
> 
> Wise move, I agree. Don't throw caution to the wind with new fish. Be sure. Ammonia and nitrite can do long term damage even if it doesn't kill outright. Just because they live, doesn't mean all went fine.
> ...


Complete and total wierdness... I've tested the ammonia 4 times today because of wierd readings... the first reading was 3ppm (BEFORE adding any more ammonia). I figured, "Oh well, I musta done something wrong." So, I did another reading... now it reads SIX ppm!! :-? :-? I fumed about it awhile, called my hubby and told him, "I don't CARE if that test kit is $45 at the pet store, these strips STINK!!" :lol: About an hour later, I decided to do the tests over again. I had our son time me on his stop watch wiggled the strip up and down in the test tube for 30 seconds, flipped off the excess water, it read out at 3ppm again... IMMEDIATELY I went to retest. Went through the whole rigamarole again, had son time on his stop watch 30 seconds while I wiggled the test strip up and down in the test tube, flipped off the excess water, had son time 30 more seconds while I held the strip level, pad side up. After 30 seconds, I turned the strip over to read through the plastic... back at SIX again!! AHHHHH!! I HATE test strips!! :lol: Sorry, didn't mean to explode on ya like that...  Just had to vent. 

Anyway... hopefully hubby will grab that API deluxe test kit at the pet store... I know it's GROSSLY overpriced (our pet store kinda stinks), but there's absolutely no way we're going to know our tank's ready for fish if we can't be sure of the water chemistry. I can't add more ammonia because I can't be sure how much to add.

Is it POSSIBLE that all our bacteria died since yesterday and they're not exchanging ammonia to nitrite anymore??  After all the effort to get the silly stuff going, I'd be HEARTBROKEN if it died... it's like a pet itself now and I can't even see it!! :lol: Might have to resort to sackcloth and ashes! :lol:

In His love,


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

Well, I feel better about our bacteria. :lol: I just did the 5-in-1 test strip (yeah, I know... it's a TEST STRIP... hehehe) and there are nitrites through the roof... like 10ppm! Obviously ammonia IS being converted. 

Nitrates are visible also... looks like just shy of 20ppm. Does this sound like things are moving along nicely? Still don't know about the ammonia level, so can't put more in. I think it might be time to change the filter materials from the 29 gallon, will probably set that cartridge into the 125 also.

In His love,


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I wouldn't even try to cycle with test strips. The drop kits are the only way to go.

Your bacteria will be fine. Skipping an ammonia dose or two won't matter.

Sounds like things are progressing, but you may be pushing too much ammonia by not knowing current tank levels. That could delay things. Not significantly, but a day or two in your case is a big deal.

It's normal for nitrite to spike really high.

The nitrate test isn't meaningful right now, since the kits actually give the result of nitrite + nitrate. Don't worry about nitrates until nitrites drop to 0.


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

prov356 said:


> I wouldn't even try to cycle with test strips. The drop kits are the only way to go.
> 
> Your bacteria will be fine. Skipping an ammonia dose or two won't matter.
> 
> ...


I didn't add ammonia today with those readings, but I think I might have figured out the ammonia mystery! I think the slime on that Mopani wood might have been an ammonia source... maybe? Might that explain the high ammonia reading? That stuff was milky white, REALLY thick and COMPLETELY gross!  Little pockets of bubbles were forming inside, making it look white and opaque in places... BLECH!

We took it out shortly before 10pm last night and put it outside to dry in the sun all day. Around 2pm or so I brought it in and scrubbed it under warm running water in the sink and put it back outside to dry again. Just before sunset we brought it in and boiled it on one end, turned it around and boiled the other end, then turned it over and boiled the other side and turned it around and boiled the other end of the other side. :lol: I want that stuff GONE!! *shudders* It's sitting on a towel on a table right now. Hopefully it'll be well sterilized!

I know test strips are terrible for the micro-management required for cycling, but they just want a STUPID amount for it at the local pet store. We're thinking of ordering it from www.azgardens.com, it's considerably less from there.

Hubby's decided that, if all else fails, we'll take all the fish out of the 72 gallon, throw them into the 125 and put the new babies in the 72 gallon (all we really have in there are 9 assorted tetras... the original cycle fish for that tank... they're almost 5 years old! 2 Krib males, 1 Yellow Lab (Lion's Cove 1) and 3 juvenile Yellow Lab.... I think Lion's Cove 2, and a couple synos). :lol: Ideally, we wanna put them into the tank that will be their permanent home but, if all else fails, we have alternatives. :thumb: We can always catch them to add to the 125 at a later date. =) The 72 gallon IS the grow-out tank, after all. 

Thanks SO much for your wisdom and patience, Tim (and the rest of the readers of this thread. LOL)! You've been of priceless assistance! =D>

In His love,


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

Well, confusion continued yesterday as readings continued to show 3ppm ammonia in our 125 gallon tank without any addition of ammonia on our part. We tried the test strips out on another aquarium which was already cycled and it clearly showed zero ammonia... I guess all that REALLY shows, though, is that it can show a negative amount correctly. :lol:

The nitrite, however, was higher than 10ppm (that's as high as the test strip goes) and the nitrate was crazy high as well, testing off the chart of the strip,... is that a good thing? We went to the OTHER local pet store and managed to find some Stability (we could SURELY use some of that... stability is something that tank seems to particularly lack. ). We used the first day's dose and will continue to throw some in there for the 7 day period it suggests.

The ammonia went to .5 pretty quickly after adding the Stability stuff, so we added 2 1/2 capfuls of ammonia a couple hours later (after 2 days of not adding any). It tested out at about 2ppm ammonia after this addition. This stuff can be COMPLICATED! :lol: I'm on pins and needles about how today's ammonia readings are going to be!! 

In His love,


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## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

best of luck to you!!!


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

mncherie1 said:


> best of luck to you!!!


  Thanks, mncherie... I'm on my way now to check ammonia...

In His love,


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

Ammonia: 0ppm! =D> :dancing:

Nitrite: off the scale at 10+ (10ppm is as high as the strip will measure nitrites)

Nitrate: off the scale at 200+ (200ppm is as high as the strip will measure nitrates). Is it wierd seeing off the scale readings of nitrite and nitrate at the same time like that? I though nitrite went to 0 before nitrates spiked?

We added the day 2 dosage of Stability. We were really pleased that it seemed, after adding the day 1 dose, we got our first 0 ammonia reading.  Of course, it COULD be coincidence with all the frantic work we've been doing to introduce bacteria into the silly tank! :lol: I've never felt this strongly about bacteria before! 

As per your suggestions earlier, Sunday will be 48 hours before our Tuesday fish delivery. Should we start the 30-40% water changes on Sunday even if the nitrites haven't hit 0, or should we just figure on adding our new babies into the 72 gallon until the 125 is all done? Saturday should be our last day of introducing ammonia to the tank, right?

Hope you're having great fun, prov356! 

In His love,


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> As per your suggestions earlier, Sunday will be 48 hours before our Tuesday fish delivery. Should we start the 30-40% water changes on Sunday even if the nitrites haven't hit 0, or should we just figure on adding our new babies into the 72 gallon until the 125 is all done? Saturday should be our last day of introducing ammonia to the tank, right?


I'm finally back to civilization and a stable Internet connection. We had a great time, thanks.

I would never add fish to a tank with nitrite that high or recommend anyone else do the same. I'd definitely hold off on getting those fish. It could be a while before nitrite drops and that level can be lethal. Not what you wanted to hear, but that's what I'd do and recommend to others. To add fish to that tank would be a very wrong move IMHO. If you do go ahead, be ready to do frequent water changes, along with a detox product and lots of prayers.


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

prov356 said:


> > As per your suggestions earlier, Sunday will be 48 hours before our Tuesday fish delivery. Should we start the 30-40% water changes on Sunday even if the nitrites haven't hit 0, or should we just figure on adding our new babies into the 72 gallon until the 125 is all done? Saturday should be our last day of introducing ammonia to the tank, right?
> 
> 
> I'm finally back to civilization and a stable Internet connection. We had a great time, thanks.
> ...


Trust me, if the 125 isn't ready to receive my new babies by the time we're ready to float the bags, we'll be floating them in the 72 gallon. :thumb: Always good to have back-up contingencies!  He's going to ship them on Monday via FedEx Overnight, so we should have them sometime on Tuesday.

However, to give the 125 every chance we can , we want to give it a chance to be prepared. We added 1 capful of ammonia today (after getting a 0 reading on ammonia) and 6 capfuls of Stability (day 3 dosage). Like I said, ammonia was still 0, but Nitrite and Nitrates were still off the charts. I didn't think that nitrates would spike til nitrites were on the decline. Silly me! 

We went ahead and ordered the fish today ONLY because we had the 72 gallon (been up and running nearly 5 years now) as a back-up to put them in. We're going to use it as a grow-out tank anyway. We still have 4 days on the 125... hopefully the nitrites will decide to plunge by then, but if not, we got it covered with the other tank. :thumb: We're starting on the water changes too.

Is this about right for us to do to give the 125 every chance of being ready by Tuesday?

In His love,


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Is this about right for us to do to give the 125 every chance of being ready by Tuesday?


That's all you can do, yes. Your backup plan sounds fine.

The ammonia and nitrite spikes overlap and the nitrite spike overlaps with nitrate rising. That's normal. It's just that there aren't enough nitrite converters to convert all that's getting thrown at them. They convert some, so there may be some nitrate reading. Look at the chart in this article. It illustrates it well.

Keep in mind also that some nitrate kits actually report the result of nitrite + nitrate. Don't know if the test strips do, but the liquid drops definitely do. I believe, if I remember correctly, that the kit actually converts any nitrate to nitrite and the color then indicates total nitrite. So, if there is already nitrite present, it gets added to nitrate total. That's what's happening with the drops and the shaking of the bottles.


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

prov356 said:


> > Is this about right for us to do to give the 125 every chance of being ready by Tuesday?
> 
> 
> That's all you can do, yes. Your backup plan sounds fine.
> ...


1. If you're a Dad, Happy Father's Day, Tim! 

2. Our strips seem to test for nitrate and nitrite seperately. They have 2 different pads and 2 different lines of readings. So, I think we're seeing them seperately.

3. We added just 1 capful of ammonia today and it'll be our last. We did a 40% or so waterchange last night. The nitrates were still high, but are back onto the charts. The nitrites were still off the charts, but not so much as before. We did a 50% water change this morning and then another 50% water change this evening. I HOPE we're not doing them too quickly and messing up our bacteria! We weren't sure what you meant by "series" of water changes. We also added the regular dose of 6 capfuls of Stability after the morning water change.

4. Just got a feeling to go check the water.... nitrates were 20ppm and nitrites were around 3! :dancing: We did the water change HOURS ago, so I think the levels would have gone back up by now if it was just the water change. VERY promising sign! 

5. We picked up some sandstone at Home Depot today, broke it up a bit with a hammer and put some in the tank. We'd read on site that sandstone is a good buffering rock (for some reason our pH was falling! It used to be 8.4, now it's around 7.8. The only thing that could account for it, really, were some rocks that our boys found (we tested them for metals first) that were in the 72 gallon and we threw in the 125 for the bacteria on 'em. We took those out and pitched 'em.. so hopefully things'll get back up there pretty soon. hehe

6. We bought some PVC pipe joints and rain gutter corners and used aquarium safe sealant to glue some of our sand all over them to use as caves. We'll likely do some sort of stacking of them with the sandstone. We plan on also getting some lace rock (right now we have some of the not-so-great-looking red lava rocks from the local pet store (the only option we could find), but we're planning to order some from an aquarium and pond store from Tucson. I'm also hoping to get some Mopani wood that DOESN'T grow slime all over it! :roll: I'm afraid to put the piece we had before back into the tank as I suspect it of causing a late ammonia spike! Remember the 2 days we had 3ppm ammonia AFTER we had it down to .25 and we didn't add any ammonia for those 2 days?? :? :roll: :lol: We want to do a centerpiece of a nice 20" or so (height) piece of Mopani wood with Anubias and/or Java Fern growing on it!

In His love,


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> If you're a Dad, Happy Father's Day, Tim!


I am, thanks!



> We added just 1 capful of ammonia today and it'll be our last.


Why last :-? Until nitrite goes to 0, you need to keep adding because you're still cycling and the tank isn't ready. The water changes are fine to keep nitrites under control. It won't hurt the cycling process. By 'series of water changes', I mean pretty much what you're doing. Do 30-40% once or twice per day, not a massive 80-90% change.



> We did the water change HOURS ago, so I think the levels would have gone back up by now if it was just the water change. VERY promising sign!


Hard to say, but more testing over the next couple of days will tell.



> We picked up some sandstone at Home Depot today, broke it up a bit with a hammer and put some in the tank. We'd read on site that sandstone is a good buffering rock (for some reason our pH was falling! It used to be 8.4, now it's around 7.8. The only thing that could account for it, really, were some rocks that our boys found (we tested them for metals first) that were in the 72 gallon and we threw in the 125 for the bacteria on 'em. We took those out and pitched 'em.. so hopefully things'll get back up there pretty soon. hehe


Sandstone won't affect pH, you're thinking of limestone. It's normal for pH to fall in any tank. The end product of the nitrogen cycle is acidic and consumes buffers (KH) and lowers pH. Check your KH. It goes hand in hand with pH. KH stabilizes pH. If it drops too low, so does pH. See Praactical Water Chemistry.



> The only thing that could account for it, really, were some rocks that our boys found (we tested them for metals first) that were in the 72 gallon and we threw in the 125 for the bacteria on 'em. We took those out and pitched 'em.. so hopefully things'll get back up there pretty soon. hehe


The rocks would've been fine. They wouldn't cause a drop in pH. Most rocks are pretty safe, see Suitability of Rocks.



> I'm afraid to put the piece we had before back into the tank as I suspect it of causing a late ammonia spike!


Boil it or just soak it in hot water that gets changed out daily.



> We want to do a centerpiece of a nice 20" or so (height) piece of Mopani wood with Anubias and/or Java Fern growing on it!


Sounds nice. Check out malaysian driftwood too. You can find some 'branchy' pieces. Local pet shops sometimes stock it.


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

prov356 said:


> > Why last :-? Until nitrite goes to 0, you need to keep adding because you're still cycling and the tank isn't ready. The water changes are fine to keep nitrites under control. It won't hurt the cycling process. By 'series of water changes', I mean pretty much what you're doing. Do 30-40% once or twice per day, not a massive 80-90% change.
> 
> 
> Ok... added another capful of ammonia.  We must've gotten your instructions on ammonia mixed up with something else. :lol: I'm relieved we didn't do TOO much on the water changes. I just checked the water again and the nitrites are down to 1ppm! :dancing: =D> Will we still have to do 2 50% water changes today to keep things going the way they are, do you think? Or should we just do 1 tonight?
> ...


I'd rather stick with the Mopani... I really like the colors, textures, shapes, etc... of it (all except the slime :lol! Thanks, though! Always good to learn more about stuff.  It's sure a lot cheaper than Mopani! We might get a piece or two to put WITH the Mopani. 

In His love,


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Will we still have to do 2 50% water changes today to keep things going the way they are, do you think? Or should we just do 1 tonight?


If nitrite is down to 1ppm, then I'd leave it alone. That's a very good sign if it's due to the bacteria, not the water changes. Hopefully getting close. :thumb:


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

prov356 said:


> If nitrite is down to 1ppm, then I'd leave it alone. That's a very good sign if it's due to the bacteria, not the water changes. Hopefully getting close. :thumb:


 :dancing: We just checked the water again! Nitrites are showing 0ppm, nitrates 20!  I think we're going to be ready after all--miraculous! Will we need to do a water change tonight, or just leave it? I'm thinkin' leave it unless something happens in the morning, huh?

In His love,


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

It'll be good either with or without, but you could do a small one. I'd be afraid of even breathing on it at this point though out of fear of causing a spike again.  At this point I really try to avoid tinkering of any kind to let things stabilize. Don't touch filters and go easy on the water changes. Small, frequent, if needed. No massive changes of any kind. Resist the temptation to swap out decor and rearrange, etc. i kind of have a hands off rule for the first 60 days of a new tank, and then go easy on the cleaning while checking for any spikes that might result. After 90-120 days, I breathe easier. .


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

prov356 said:


> It'll be good either with or without, but you could do a small one. I'd be afraid of even breathing on it at this point though out of fear of causing a spike again.  At this point I really try to avoid tinkering of any kind to let things stabilize. Don't touch filters and go easy on the water changes. Small, frequent, if needed. No massive changes of any kind. Resist the temptation to swap out decor and rearrange, etc. i kind of have a hands off rule for the first 60 days of a new tank, and then go easy on the cleaning while checking for any spikes that might result. After 90-120 days, I breathe easier. .


 :lol: I'm afraid to breathe in that direction!! Hubby did a bunch of stuff to it tonight... stuck in those sandstone pieces (we later found out it was actually cement made to LOOK LIKE sandstone *cringe*... we took it out, he put some PVC pipe pieces that we used aquarium safe silicone to glue our substrate sand to (let it stay outside 24 hours from yesterday) and then decided he hated the way it looked... then, he stuck a black skirt tetra from our 29 gallon in there just to make sure it "would sustain life". LOL Well, the little guy swam around in there for about 2 hours, hubby was satisfied that it would, indeed, "sustain life", so he took him out and stuck him back in the 29 gallon with his other buddies. He's a MUCH happier fish now! :lol:

Anyway, miraculously, it looks as if we REALLY are prepared to recieve our dreamed of fishies tomorrow! :fish: Thanks, prov356 and everyone on cichlid forum! Was this more drama than a soap opera or what?! 

In His love,


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> he stuck a black skirt tetra from our 29 gallon in there just to make sure it "would sustain life". LOL Well, the little guy swam around in there for about 2 hours, hubby was satisfied that it would, indeed, "sustain life", so he took him out and stuck him back in the 29 gallon with his other buddies. He's a MUCH happier fish now!


I've done that too. :lol:



> Thanks, prov356 and everyone on cichlid forum! Was this more drama than a soap opera or what?!


You're welcome, and we'll be looking for the pics.


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## vaypourus (May 20, 2008)

prov356 said:


> > You're welcome, and we'll be looking for the pics.


Ditto. We love pics!


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

Well, we got our new babies today, 2 hours earlier than expected! All the way from Kentucky to AZ! =D> None were dead in the bags, but we did end up losing two Cynotilapia afra Cobue (afra Edwardi) to injuries they received during shipping. 45 out of 47... not bad at all! 

Our petricola catfish are the CUTEST things!! They're TINY! Our Mainganos are BEAUTIFUL, our Pseudotropheus "Blue Dolphin" (AKA Giant Demasoni) are F1s from wild caught parents... they're itty bitty, but already coloring up VERY nicely! Our Cobue haven't got much color yet, but I'm sure they will given a day or two to get used to the shipping and change of scenery. We were a little bit disappointed in the quality of the yellow labs, however... most of them are REALLY dark barred. BUT, we have a perfectly clean male to do some line breeding... hopefully we can outbreed the bars! :lol: Our Acei are starting to color up a bit... the females already have the pretty yellow fins and dark blue body... the males are still kind of a slate gray, no yellow on the fins yet.

We even gave them light snacks throughout the day and they ate... we even had some breeding behaviors going on!! hehehe

I Will try to get some photos posted... but I'm not terribly computer savvy, so it might take awhile. 

In His love,


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## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

How exciting, I am sooo glad all worked out for you. 
Pics would be great, you can post them for free on photobucket.com


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

mncherie1 said:


> How exciting, I am sooo glad all worked out for you.
> Pics would be great, you can post them for free on photobucket.com


*grins* I feel initiated now! :lol: Two weeks of work and worry and it comes out right at the last minute! :dancing:

In His love,


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

Ok.... so I set up a photobucket account, uploaded some pictures... NOW what?? :lol: I don't know how to get them from that site to this one. I'm SO 20th century... 

In His love,


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

By each picture, or as you move the cursor over each picture depending on if you're in thumbnail or full size pic mode, you'll see a box with 'codes'. Look for IMG Code. You'll see some code that starts with


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

Ok.... I'm still not sure I get the hang of this... but here goes:

Our 125G tank... we're REALLY not done with it yet. =P









Some of our fishies just out of the bags!









Some more of our fishies just out of the bags! One group went to one side of the tank, another went to the other side. :lol: 









A group of female Maingano (Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos) and some Giant Demasoni behind them:









And here's a shot of a male Maingano:









I'll keep snapping shots and trying to post 'em. LOL I have: 10 (2 have died on us. ) F1 Pseudotropheus "Blue Dolphin" AKA Giant Demasoni, 10 Maingano, 8 (2 of those died on us also. ) Cynotilapia afra Cobue AKA afra Edwardi, 6 Pseudotropheus acei "Yellow Tail" and, of course, the obligatory Yellow Labs, 8 of 'em. :lol: Throw in 4 cute as a button Synodontis petricolas! Hope you guys can see those pictures, or at least follow the links to 'em. LOL

In His love,


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## mncherie1 (Mar 27, 2009)

love 'em!!! Now I am getting excited to set up my 125 gal. Are you going to put more rocks in the tank so they don't beat each other up?


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## vaypourus (May 20, 2008)

That is a lot of fish!

I'm a Lake Tang guy...so my favs are obviously the syno cats. Cool little fish


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## Maranatha! (May 29, 2009)

mncherie1 said:


> love 'em!!! Now I am getting excited to set up my 125 gal. Are you going to put more rocks in the tank so they don't beat each other up?


Definitely more rocks... a few more plants, and a nice big piece of Mopani wood (with a plant or two attached) as the centerpiece! :thumb: :fish:

In His love,


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