# My Odyssey- Building a 100G Tank into my Living Room Wall



## CITADELGRAD87

I have been keeping Africans for about 8 years, always in a 50G acrylic with an Emperor 400 and an Eheim classic canister. To my, that was a perfect sized tank. In the office, I ran an Artica chiller because of no AC during summer Sundays and the 95 degree air temp.
Recently, when repiping our house after a plumbing issue, I decided to open a false wall and build in my 50g. For about 5 seconds, then I looked at the wall, and instantly decided to put a 5 foot tank in the wall, visible in the living room. The great thing for me is that the space inside the wall is so large (approximately 4 feet by 5.5 feet) , I will have a fish room, with water supply, a drain, and room for all my stuff to be together, food, chemicals, etc.
Even though I have run several threads on minor parts of this, now that we are getting serious, I thought it might be better for anyone who cares to use this as a reference to have it together in a properly titled thread.

Here's an establishing shot of the living room wall, this spot has been covered by the TV for years, the TV is going up on the opposite side of the fireplace.









So I started haunting Craig's List, I was at a bit of disadvantage, because I have just over 5 feet of wall space, and I did not want a 46 inch tank. I scored this ex saltwater tank, 100G Visio glass with a single overflow box, a stand which I have been using to work out plumbing issues, and will later sell, a small SW sump with a Mag 12, a skimmer that I am not sure if it works, and a ton of salt crust and general saltwater nastiness and stank. I plan to sell the stand, the sump, and the skimmer on CL when I get a chance. It cleaned up WAY better than I thought it would. 









I decided early on to use a sump, and in cleaning up this one, even though it was smaller than I wanted at 24 gallons, I hooked it up and gave it a try. The problem I was having is that with the Mag 12, I needed to keep the pump totally submerged to keep it from sucking air, then, when I unplugged it, to check what would happen for a power outage, it came to within about an inch of the tank rim, too close for comfort, especially coming off some non fish tank water damage to our floor. During this phase, my wife came to look at it in the garage an immediately mentioned that the rushing whitewater noise was far too loud, so I built a Durso standpipe with about $5 worth of plumbing parts. It works as advertised, my only contribution to that system is the ability to tell you if you need to offset it, 2 45 degree elbows do not affect operation.

Back to Craigs list, where I found a 60G acrylic that was only $40, so I picked that up. I briefly flirted with a bucket setup, but for a variety of reasons abandoned that in favor of a built in bio ball chamber, my first work with acrylic. I made a single wall to hold the bio balls in, and added Ã‚Â¼ acrylic rod to hold up the egg crate and drip tray, and I made a top plate to attach the hose to the top of the sump, and filled it all with 10G bio balls, which sources tell me is good for 300G or so of water. 
[/img]http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k634/citadelgrad871/photobucket-17252-1317528063574.jpg[/img]








































With the batting on the top of the drip tray, I get a nice, quite sprinkle of water over the entire bio chamber.


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## CITADELGRAD87

With the IN to the sump completed, I moved on to using the sump return to power USJs, I have used them in my 50 from day one, and while I am not one who can report that I no longer have to vacuum, with some better jet placement in the 100, I hope to reduce maintenance somewhat. I also want to have no equipment visible inside the tank, if possible. Using the return to power the jets helps with this.

Initially, I used the Mag 12 as it came, which was Ã‚Â¾ flex hose feeding into a Ã‚Â¾ bulkhead and into a Ã‚Â½ exit bulkhead at the top of the box. Flow rate was pathetic, really no flow was detectable on several jets. 









I opened the Ã‚Â½ to Ã‚Â¾, and ran 1 inch flex to the tank bottom, then Ã‚Â¾ to the jets, flow still very low. Because of the 4 foot head height and the pipe diameter restrictions, I felt I needed more pump. I was able to pick up a Mag 24 locally from a guy who was blowing out inventory after he closed a fish store, great prices, so I grabbed a finnex heater and controller and a little time and temp, too.

Then I got serious, I decided to see what would happen if I ran 1 Ã‚Â½ inch return line, because that's what Danner uses to rate their pumps. I ran hard PVC just to see what would happen if I went from 1 Ã‚Â½ at the pump head all the way inside the tank, over the back violating my no equipment rule, and reduced to Ã‚Â¾ at the start of the jets. 

































NOW WE'RE COOKING. I hooked up the 24 and it rocked, so much so that I am going to put a T fitting inside the sump area, and have the ability to valve off the main return and divert flow back into the sump through another line. I will use this to polish water by running a sock type diatom filter. For water changes, I plan to close the main return, shoot the sump water using the diverted line into a nearby drain, then refill using a hose bib inside my fish room, treat and heat the water, and then turn back on the main line. For the cautious ones, yes, I know I need to put some (multiple) siphon drain holes in that line, and will do so. Part of the advantage of having a magnum powered pump is I will not miss that puny leakage.

Since I am now married to the over the back return, I am purchasing a tank background from a source I found through a member of these forums, I have no artist in me, which is a bad combo with my anal retentive perfectionist issue, so I am going to have someone else make the perfect background. It will cover that return line and disguise the overflow box, too. Right now I like the cobblestone, a multi colored background with a variety of sizes and thickness of projections, I want to keep the maximum amount of water in the tank. For giggles, I set the Mag 12 up using the 1 Ã‚Â½ line, but there isn't enough in that pump to do what I need.

Now for the good stuff. I put some blue tape up on the wall to show where the tank will be, and opened up a witness hole to check out the space.



















Here you can see the parallel project, the TV is getting a built in treatment as well, I got the boards off and exposed the back of the other fireplace, which is unfortunately offset, limiting the TV side depth, I need to get creative on that side to have room for all the components.
That's where I ran out of daylight yesterday. 









I plan to document this whole build, from decision what to do, through construction, fishless cycle, and stocking. Stick with me, it should be a ride. If you see anything or have any tips, please weigh in.


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## Steve C

No tips, but I just gotta say...that's gonna be a very cool spot to have the tank built in. I'm looking forward to seeing how it comes out 8)


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## bearrock

LOOKING GOOD!!!!! I will be following along!


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## The King Crabb

Loving it so far! Should be awesome :thumb:


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## chptunes

Cool project.. keep up the good work.


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## Clink51

will everything be okay once the fireplace gets lit? i mean those are fireplace bricks, but they must get hot to some degree right?


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## CITADELGRAD87

The fireplace that is exposed on the left side is a gas one that we have never lit in 7 years, but the bricks you can see in the photos are approximately 2 feet thick measuring from the closest part of the inside of the fireplace to the point where I am mounting the TV and components, and there is free air space, not a lot, but air space, between that back wall of the fireplace and the back of the TV cabinet. Before we took the boards covering the bricks down, there was about 4-6 inches of free air space minimum all the way around the bricks that you can see.

On the fish tank side, the right side, we do use that fireplace on occasion, but the tank is about 6-12 inches from the closest external bricks.

I think it should be OK.


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## Clink51

i wish i had a fireplace, let alone two... lucky man

anyways, i would put in some kind of vent space somewhere just in case of smoke, access heat or chemicals that leak and dont get mixed with the tank itself.

ps... any way i can subscribe to this post? im really anxious to see how awesome this turns out :drooling: .. best of luck dude and i cant wait for the next picture show :thumb:


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## CITADELGRAD87

There is an option you can check when you reply so it will send you an emial whenever someone posts on the thread. At the "Post a reply" screen, the fourth option down, the bottom one, is "Notify me when a reply is posted." It's a great way to track interesting threads, like I hope this one will be.

Thanks for the kind words and advice, I always like to look at things from as many differnet angles as possible, especially when they involve cutting large holes in my house!


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## Vadimshevchuk

Very nice build so far :thumb: What kind of controller did you get?


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## CITADELGRAD87

Vadimshevchuk said:


> Very nice build so far :thumb: What kind of controller did you get?


For the heater? It's a Finnex non digital one, I think I paid like $30 for the heater and controller, both new in box, it was so cheap I decided to grab it. It has a dial for temperature and a remote temperature sensor that I can put anywhere in the sump. I found some reviews that are pretty good, but our own products section is silent on Finnex products. I haven't plugged it in yet.


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## CITADELGRAD87

Baby steps. In all honesty, I am concentrating on getting my TV up into the wall before I turn to the tank full time. I am going to try to make big progress tonight on that aspect of the project.

In the fish department, I have received my 1.5 inch hose and 1.5 threaded nipples from a forum sponsor, I cut the styrofoam pad to go under the Mag 24 pump, I put a 1 inch street el on the mag so I can run a bit of a downtube for water changes.

I have totally abandoned the overflow box as a way to get water back IN to the tank, so I pulled the fittings on the return side and blocked the bulkheads with threaded plugs.

The semi final design will have the overflow box feeding a 1.5 inch drain to the 60G acrylic sump, through filter floss, trickle plate, 10G bio balls, into the main chamber.

The return will be into the Mag 24, 20% (approx) bleeding off at a T fitting into a 1" soft line that simply goes back into the sump after passing through a micron filter sock. 80% back into the tank via a 1.5 inch soft tube, transitioning into PVC at the tank edge, behind a background, exiting as 3/4 PVC feeding 9 or 10 USJs spinning the water generally countercockwise into the overflow box. The USJs are 90%+ completed, but I need to move a couple jets when I finalize the background. All of the PVC fittings are purchased but will not be glued for some time, as that is obviously a one shot deal.

For water changes, the main return will be shut off, diverting all water into the 1 inch soft line, that will go into a nearby drain and the sump will be emptied. The nearby hose bib will then re fill the sump with tap water, which will be treated and heated using the 1 inch line for circulation. When the temp is correct, I will re open the main return line and the jets will fire back up.

I finalized my order for a custom background today, spoke with the owner and I am very excited. The background will cover the downtube, and the overflow box, meaning that my dream of a show tank with NO visible equipment should be a reality within a couple of weeks.

I also have my 5 foot Aquaticlife T5HO fixture with moonlight LEDs sitting in my office as I type this. I have not even opened the box for that yet, it's huge.

More as soon as I can.


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## The King Crabb

Sounds like you're making some awesome progress! I'm really excited to see this tank without visible equipment whatsoever! I've never been let of the leash enough to try that venture out :lol:


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## CITADELGRAD87

Well, as I was typing that, I realized that you will be able to see the tips of the undersand jets, so, I will not reach the goal with this tank, but nothing at ALL visible on the back, like pipes, HOBS, nothing. Only some stubs of PVC making a nice poo current.


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## The King Crabb

You could always paint the PVC the color of the sand? Or use clear piping?


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## CITADELGRAD87

I have considered painting it, but I need to find a good krylon fusion match.


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## Clink51

dont seel your self short... grab some silicone and with a plastic knife coat the tips like its peanutbutter or cream cheese or something and then sprinkle the sand (im assuming your using sand) onto it... it'll hide much better


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## The King Crabb

Clink51 said:


> dont seel your self short... grab some silicone and with a plastic knife coat the tips like its peanutbutter or cream cheese or something and then sprinkle the sand (im assuming your using sand) onto it... it'll hide much better


That actually sounds like a very good idea! Would probably have to be dry sand though.


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## CITADELGRAD87

Clink51 said:


> dont seel your self short... grab some silicone and with a plastic knife coat the tips like its peanutbutter or cream cheese or something and then sprinkle the sand (im assuming your using sand) onto it... it'll hide much better


Thats a fantastic idea! i will definately give that a try.


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## CITADELGRAD87

Clink51 said:


> dont seel your self short... grab some silicone and with a plastic knife coat the tips like its peanutbutter or cream cheese or something and then sprinkle the sand (im assuming your using sand) onto it... it'll hide much better


Thats a fantastic idea! i will definately give that a try.


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## Guams

If I may bring in a different perspective...

I, too, thought sprinkling sand onto the USJ's was a great end to the battle of how to hide your jets. Unfortunately, one of the benefits of sand is that when it starts getting brown from algea, you can mix it up and it make it look normal. With the sand siliconed to the jets, you can't do this. Now, my USJ's are brown, instead of white... and there isn't a darn thing I can do unless I take them off and make more jets.

I should mention... I use white silica sandblasting sand... so the brown appearance is very apparent. I haven't used any other types of sand... so maybe play sand is different and won't be noticeable... I don't know. It's just something for you to keep in mind...


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## CITADELGRAD87

Hmm, that is a good point, as well.

Does anyone know if acrylic or enamel model paints would work, my other nerdy hobby gives me a great selection and ability to mix a perfect shade, but I would not want to have anything leach into the tank.


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## The King Crabb

I know for a fact that you can use 100% acrylic non-toxic paint and be totally safe. Not sure if it has to be 100% acrylic but it's not a challenge to find that, plus it'll only be about $2 a bottle.


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## CITADELGRAD87

I got some additional information, basically that almost all spray can paint is identical in ingredients. I think the key is to let it cure so it is not gassing or otherwise letting chemicals out.

I plan to try to find some sand/buff colored paint, maybe something that has a bit of texture. I do not think I am going to be able to get an exact match, but it would ne nice to knock the WHITE!!!! off the PVC.

Some more progress on the TV side of the fireplace last night, i got the TV shelf mounted and started cutting the MDF for the box back and sides.

I ordered some additional cables today for that part of the project as well.

I hope to get the TV and components done this weekend, then next week, THE FISHROOM!!!!


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## Bradyk

Any progress? Did you get your background yet??? Can't wait to see how this turns out. I'm starting my in wall project this next weekend and I'm hoping I can get some good info from you along the way.

I just bought a 180 gallon tank and placed an order with the same company again who did my background. I'm thinking of selling the 55 gallon tank and background they just made me for some extra cash for the project. I've been sending them alot of business so hopefully I can get a good deal on the new background.

I'm curious if it's gonna be a pain to clean the tanks once they are in the wall? I'll be watching your thread! Good job so far :thumb:

Brady


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## CITADELGRAD87

Hi Brady, no, no FISH progress yet. Part of the family green light for this project is that I also build our TV into the opposite wall, I should finish that early this week, then full speed ahead on the tank build. I have taken it as far as I can go before the background gets here. I finalized my order with the background guys late last week, thursday I think, and am expecting some photos as the work progresses, but nothing yet. I did mention you by name to them so maybe you can parlay that into some kind of frequent buyer discount?

I think I have all the PVC parts to run my sump and return, but I need to get it into the stand, which right now is just a pile of 2X4s in the garage.

Since this is a fish site, I have bit my tongue and not posted any TV updates, but I am sure I will include photos of it in the progress shots because it's so close to the tank area. Basically I am ready to button up the bottom area for the TV as soon as I run electrical to that area, tonight, and the cables for the speakers arrived today, so I should be able to button up the top maybe tomorrow. After that it's ALL fish, all the time!

I hope I am far enough ahead of you that you can get some benefit, that's the awesomeness of the internet, we can do this like we are neighbors, even though we are a couple hundred miles apart.

For maintenance, I have enough room inside the hidden room to walk the full length of the back of the tank. With the jets, hopefully poo patrol will be minimized, my water changes will hopefully be super easy with the sump pump and valves, and the nearby drain. Basically, my setup is identical to a tank that's not in the wall, except instead of not being able to walk behind it, I will not be able to walk in front of it, at least from the back side. I will probably need a mag float for the front glass, the rest I can reach from the room, I hope!


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## CITADELGRAD87

OK, what are Monday nights for if not hurrying home from work and trying to get some fish room building in. When we left off, I had spent about 8 hours Sunday trying to get the TV side completed, but I ran out of daylight, steam, and needed to make a Depot run for electrical and I pulled the plug.

Tonight, I was going to get the junction boxes set up for my wiring for both sides. I am fine on the TV side, but on the fish room side, will this be enough outlets??

I am putting an outlet somewhere above the tank for lighting, which leaves and extra outlet there, probably for a small flouro for me when I am in the room working, and a quad outlet somewhere under the tank for the Mag 24, the heater/controller, and two extras for whatever I need. I was going to put the heater on a switch, but I figured I would just forget to turn it on again after water changes. It's titanium, so I should be fine for water changes, right?

Anyway, best laid plans. I decided to first open up the wall to close to final dimensions, but that basically took all night, what with trimming studs and the various fit tissues. I got no eletrical done today.

I did snap some pictures of the now larger hole, it's still not final dimensions, but as you can see from the blue tape, it's getting pretty close. Hopefully tomorrow ot Weds I will get the stand built. I am using the wall studs as the front legs, I will cap the 2X4 rail that is already in place with an on edge 2 x 4, mostly to bring it up to where I need to tank bottom to be. Then I will close the rectangle of the top with 3 more on edge 2x 4s.

This will be my first tank stand, my plan is to have a dead square and level 2x4 frame around the perimiter of the top, then I will put on a plywood top. My understanding is the plywood isn't necessary, as the edge of the tank is all it rests on. I will use 2x 4 legs at the back corners and I will add one more in the middle of the back, after I slip the sump into its shelf.

It's going to be a cozy little room, I figure I have about 20 inches of room behind the tank to do maintenance inside the fish room. Not as big as I would have liked, but it's the biggest dedicated fish room I have ever had!

Here are some photos of the nelwy bigger hole in the wall, as well as a couple looking into the hole:










Closer, sorry about the dark pictures, it's DARK when I finish, that's why I am so excited about a tank in there like a night light when we are in there.









Here is a close up looking into the room from the tank location, the fireplace to the left as you face the tank:









I am going to take off the bottom wood along the top of the rocks and replace that with precision cut wood I kept from the TV side once the tank is in place. The right portion is about where the tank bottom will be framed, the left side is with that wood removed for now.

Finally, the same shot but facing the right rear of the tank location, you can just see the water supply I put in with the TV cables draped around it so I don't trip on them.










Not a lot to take pictures of yet, but I am getting prettty close to actual stand construction, so if anything doesn't seem right, please let me know what you think. I am pretty comfortable with the planned stand construction, as the 2 x 4s are pretty much overkill, and I have 4 legs across the front of the tank. The stand I got with the tank has only 5 2 x 4 legs, at the corners and one in the center back, and it seems like I could park my car on it. My plan is to just make certain it's square and level.

Thanks for following along, cichlid lovers. I'm starting to get pretty excited with this project, the hole in the wall is pretty huge, so I told my wife there is no going back now.

FOREWARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## quentin8

Looks really good.. Im confused.....How do you get behind the tank after its in place? form what I see in the pictures there doesnt look like there is anyway to get into the fish room.


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## PfunMo

A point to consider? I would not want to let the heater go out of the water while turned on. In theory it may have contacts to open an shut down but what the fail to mention is that doing this may distort the spring contacts so that they a funky from then on. I find a cheap strip of oulets like for computers to be a cheap easy way to get the large number of outlets as well as a switch. It helps to be able to turn off heaters,powerhead and filters with one move. It also helps remind me when nothing is running. DUH!

That drain pipe makes it look like an ideal time to tap in to add a drain for water changes! There are clamp on fittings that allow tapping into a pipe without cutting it. Any water supply lines nearby as well?


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## Agridion

I first have to say that once the tank is completed it will look great being built into the wall. :thumb:



CITADELGRAD87 said:


> Thanks for following along, cichlid lovers. I'm starting to get pretty excited with this project, the hole in the wall is pretty huge, so I told my wife there is no going back now.
> 
> FOREWARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!


If you ever want to give your wife a mild heart attack you could always tell her that you changed your mind about the tank, that you figured you could leave the hole as is and decided to use the spot to store wood for the fire place. :lol:

But really, Make sure you have room to service the tank like others pointed out. Keep up the good work! opcorn:


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## CITADELGRAD87

Eagle eyed observers, you are correct. As of right now, the only way into that room is to ball up and crawl through the tank opening. See the studs to the rear of the wall? That is the back side of the formal living room wall. It is about 20 inches from the back side of the tank stand when it is in place to the studs on that wall. The wall is only wood paneling nailed to those studs. So while it will be tight, I will have side to side access to the back of the tank for maintenance. 20 inches worth of width.

The master plan is to have a hidden (AWSEOME, right?!?!?) door into the room from that back wall. Because of the dimensions of the room, it will have to open outward into the living room, and I am considering hiding the door even further with some shelves that will swing with the wall. I just haven't cut the door yet, and after I cut the witness hole, I saw a gas line I needed to move, the drain line you see there, etc. I want to be darned sure that I cut that door in the correct area. I I had cut that door first, I would have bracketed that drain line and would have to go backwards, that wasn't planning on my part, just lucky I went the other way, but it did give me pause to take a breath and really think things through before I cut holes in the wall.

As for the drain, Pfunmo, excellent idea, I already had my plumber out to look at it, he told me to call him when he can get in there, and we will set up a removable drain plug that I can use during water changes. I forgot to mention that, but excellent catch. I was very happy to learn that my days of toting 5g buckets will be OVER once this is up and running. I will have a 1" line running off the main return pump that will be long enough to reach across and into that drain, and I can then just close the main tank valve, and BOOM the sump will be emptied at 2400 GPH velocity. No muss not fuss. Then I put the hose back in the sump, and I take the supply hose and fill to the line, adding chemicals and heating it with the aid of the circulation from the diverted pump.

Is it wrong that I appear to fantasize about how easy maintenance is going to be for this tank?

I think you are right about the single switched receptacle or a power strip, I will have the heater controller on a switch, but I need the pump on for water changes. Otherwise, does that sound like enough receptacles?

Here is something I would like input on:

I do not mind going into the room to feed the fish, but there are times when my wife or daughter like to feed them and see them go brilliant when they are feeding. Plus sometimes life gets in the way of this wonderful hobby and I need to feed on my way out the door.

What do you think about a small opening, a chute or something, to allow feeding from the front side? How could I disguise that so it sort of disappears unless you are looking for it?


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## Agridion

CITADELGRAD87 said:


> I do not mind going into the room to feed the fish, but there are times when my wife or daughter like to feed them and see them go brilliant when they are feeding. Plus sometimes life gets in the way of this wonderful hobby and I need to feed on my way out the door.
> 
> What do you think about a small opening, a chute or something, to allow feeding from the front side? How could I disguise that so it sort of disappears unless you are looking for it?


How about a decorative piece of (wide) trim, say around 8Ã¢â‚¬Â


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## PfunMo

I was restricted by space in front of this tank so that a swinging door was out.









As an alternate, I used an access panel held in with magnetic catchs. 








Other than the handles, one doesn't see the door. 









Might this work for the room access, too? Two smaller panels with trim to blend them in with the rest of the room??? Two small panels are easier to move around than one larger one. 
Any space left inside that twenty inches for a water storage for treated water and bringing up to room temp?

Big +++ on getting lucky when cutting holes!


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## CITADELGRAD87

Hmmm, I like the idea of the movable trim. I wonder if that will work with the glass tops? I will have to figure that out.

As far as the panels, that also may work, I like the idea actually, I think if I set it up with planning, I can still do shelves above the door area?

I am not sure if I can fit a water storage tank. I plan to do about 35-45 gallon water changes, I will have to get the stand in place and measure what I have in terms of space to work with. It would be nice to treat the water and heat it with a spare heater a day or two before the changes. Pretty tight space, but now you have me thinking about building up and having a storage tank above the top of the tank. It would be tough to see in there, more thinking needed on my part.


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## Clink51

> What do you think about a small opening, a chute or something, to allow feeding from the front side? How could I disguise that so it sort of disappears unless you are looking for it?


figh guy did this during his 1200 gallon indoor pool, er i mean tank. he had some frames with his awards on top and it was just a swinging hatch to feed. def look into it if youd like

opcorn:


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## PfunMo

Seems like a good time to award yourself with a nice gold framed certificate for DIY. Hang it over the feeding hole. 

Don't pay too much attention to our suggestions. We might like to have you work too hard!


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## CITADELGRAD87

PfunMo said:


> Seems like a good time to award yourself with a nice gold framed certificate for DIY. Hang it over the feeding hole.
> 
> Don't pay too much attention to our suggestions. We might like to have you work too hard!


Not at all, I am happy to have any input. Thinking about changing what I plan to do is WAY easier than doing it twice. As far as a water tank, I have right around 15-16 inches between the tank back and the far wall. I will say that I can fit in that space and leave it at that, but I do not know if I can get usable water storage in such a small space. Maybe.

Got some stuff done today, I built the frame for the stand top. I am using a combination of the wall framing and two additonal legs for the front, and two two by four legs for the back. I am running a 2 x 4 on edge between those legs, do you think I can eliminate the center back leg if I do it this way? I will have back corner legs, the on edge 2 x 4, and the 3/4 plywood for strength. 100G, 5 foot tank?

Here's the top of the stand frame in place, I haven't cut the back legs, but I did run the back frame long and ran it over a 2 x 4 lagged to the wall studs.




























Even though I still have to add some legs, everything is very level side to side and front to back, and seems very sturdy at this point. I plan to screw the frame to the house framing wherever I can.

Here's a couple shots showing the room that will be left after the tank goes in, that 2 x 4 is about 16 inches, so there's a bit of room to move in there after I cut the door.










Here's that same 2 x 4 from the side, about 16 inches wiggle room.










Seriously, comments, suggestions, etc are welcome.

One question for the tradesmen, there is a metal wire, about 1/8 in diameter, uninsulated, that seems to run from somewhere above to somewhere below, my uneducated guess is that its a lighting rod ground. In the 21 years I have lived in SouCal, I have seen maybe 3 electrical storms in the nearby mountains, in any event, of course it runs DIRECTLY through where the tank will sit, si I need to move this wire, and am not sure what to do with it.

Thanks for following this build, I appreciate the company and extra eyes.


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## CITADELGRAD87

Mini update, I got the left side rear leg in place, and started building the sump shelf.

Pictures:









Bottom shelf










Shot from outside the room with a poor simulation of the aquarium lit up at night










There is 14 inches of space between the aquarium back and the back wall, so I can easily stand and move side to side the entire distance of the closet.

Below, because of the double front wall framing of the house, the lower shelf sticks out 3 inches, so I have to contend with less room below, but I have skinny legs, and I am going to put my valves, etc where I can easliy reach them. THEORETICALLY, water changes should be very easy and very quick for a 40 g change. Turn two valves, open the Y fitting, dump the sump and refill.

Does anyone know if a 1965 era house would have some kind of main ground or lighting rod ground on the chimney? There is a single strand, grey, uninsulated wire, about 1/8 inch diameter, that seems to run from up above to the outside wall. Any guesses what that is, and if it would be a problem to cut it and splice in additional length so that it does not cut across the aquarium space? I can't imagine that it would be a problem to do it, but it never hurts to ask and frankly I am hoping that someone will tell me I can just cut it and forget it, but I doubt that.

Tonight, the plumber is tapping in a capped Y fitting to that drain line for water changes, and I will complete the electrical, maybe finish up the bottom shelf but doubtful.

Comments and questions are always welcome.


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## PfunMo

Glad to see the prop directly under the end of the stand/shelf. I like to have the weight suppored directly on wood . 
The grey wire sounds like aluminum, maybe?? If you scrape it, it should show up shiny bright. Maybe what is called #6 ground wire. Some things it might be are a ground to a satallite dish, ground to the electrical panel. Not as likely for the panel to be above, though they could have run it through over the ceiling. Not likely, though as it normally will take the shortest route to ground. Satallite dish grounding is not likely to have been built in in '65. Not sure how much aluminum wire was being used yet in '65. Any chance of it being added later? In my experience, lightning rod grounds were not often built in on original but more often add ons. Good idea to try to chase it to either end to find what is there. Logic says it may go through the wall to a ground rod. Possibly buried a few inches and hard to spot. Any signs of a lightning rod on the roof? Look for an old dish up there? Any ham operators lived there that might have had an antenna grounded? Some places grounded TV antennas. Have you pulled it to see if it is cut off and just pulls out? Not hard enough to break something but just in case you might get lucky!!

If you can't ID the wire, it can be cut and spliced. The big thing would be to use basicly same wire and get connectors designed for that to try to avoid corrosion at the joints some time in the future.


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## CITADELGRAD87

I will scrape it tonight, it almost looks like its galvanized? It may have been added when the external conventional TV antenna was set up to ground that, there was an old, flat antenna wire that I just cut out of my way, but hard to tell. The Dish was put up when we moved in, it's not nearby and all the wiring in here looks original. I think it was sealed upon completion unitl the day I cut that hole. The roof on the back of the house is so high that you can't see the rooof from our yard.

It goes into the exterior wall low down, that's why I thought it was a ground wire of some type. As long as I splice in with proper connectors, though, sounds OK to cut it and get it out of the way.

Affirmative on the legs/supports, every place I can use wood on wood, I do so, even if it means ridiculously overengineering with 2 2x4s when one would do.


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## The King Crabb

Sorry I can't help with the wiring, but I'd just like to say that I'm loving this build! opcorn:


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## PfunMo

Suspect you will find it is aluminum that has corroded. That leaves it kind of speckled that might look much like galvanised. Since it goes out near the floor, it does really sound like the ground for an old rooftop antenna or maybe a dish. Copper is considered the really good item for wiring but aluminum is cheaper and it was used a lot for all wiring but then they found it had some problems that copper doesn't. Still good enough for grounding the dish and such, probably. One of those things that indicate how much of our natural resources are just gone.


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## CITADELGRAD87

Hmm. Copper wiring throughout the house, but this is probably aluminum. I will scrape it tonight and see what happens, Home Depot should have a splice kit, some clamps or something to lengthen it, correct?


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## CITADELGRAD87

The King Crabb said:


> Sorry I can't help with the wiring, but I'd just like to say that I'm loving this build! opcorn:


Glad to have you along, King. If you see anything that seems hinky, don't be bashful and sing out. Your build experience is welcome here.

I got the drain Y fitting installed today. Now for water changes I just need to remove the cap and insert the 1 inch line and open the ball valve, boom, one empty sump.

I figure that's right at 40 gallons of a total of around 130 or so. Right around a 25% change. If I did that twice a week, the fish should be happy, right? Especially if I run some plants.

Im starting to get excited now.


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## PfunMo

Good info on the rest of the house being copper. I think you are dealing with a dish ground more likely with that info. Their installers are often just contract operators that want to get it done as cheap as possible, so aluminum is more their style. Not totally bad but aluminum has corrosion problems that copper might not so your really quality people don't use it as much.

For splicing if you do need to cut it, there will be connectors to use for this. Most likely just a clamp that holds the two wires. Scrape the wires ends so they are shiny, then clamp them real tight. Any chance you have a meter to measure resistance? I would quess it is only about 60% chance of it being a true ground at this point. What is likely to happen is that corrosion gets between the wire and the ground rod and over time it loses contact. If you clamp a wire to a rod and then bury it in the dirt, corrosions is pretty natural. Rather than fuss with splicing it, I would spend more time trying to find out what it does, if anything. If you have no antenna or dish on the roof, it really sounds like old stuff and you could cut it. I don't want to recommend that without you checking though! :-?

If it is a lightning rod ground, do you really want that trying to carry a bolt of lighning down through your house to the ground?? I'd rather just hope it stays away from my house because that little bitty wire is not going to hold up to that much voltage!!


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## CITADELGRAD87

The only reason I think it's not a dish ground is that, as far as I can tell, the false room was sealed upon the completion of the house, I don't think anyone has been in there since 1965. This wire goes throught the whole space and into the framing on the exterior wall, I don't see how it could go into the framing unless someone was inside this room. There is no attic access because of the second floor, and the only way in is cutting the hardwood panels I cut or opening the panel on the opposite wall.

I think it's either an original antenna ground or maybe a lightning ground on the chimney. Go figure, we get distan electrical storms about once every 5 years, never close by. BUt I do totally agree, I am not interested in attracting lighting so it can rip through my house, let alone my fish room.

Here's the drain fitting:










It's just a screwdriver hose clamp over a 3 inch cap. To acces it, I just loosen the clamp, pull the cap, stick the hose in, open the valve. It's right at the height of the top of the sump, with the Mag 24 pushing it, I could have put it on the second floor and still have decent flow.

I was looking at it last night and thought maybe I should have had it plumbed lower, but the sump shelf sticks out more than the main tank shelf, so the lower you go the tighter it gets. At present height, it will be a comfortable height to stand and attach the drain hose to the drain. One of those things, I was not home when he put it in, it's where I indicated it, but I didn't really have any chance to see how low I could put it and still use it. As it is, it will work fine.

I hope to get the sump shelf supports completed tonight, maybe attach the sump shelf, and get the electrical sorted out. I decided on a four gang located on the wall under the main tank, but up front so I can reach it, controlled by a GFI, a two gang over the tank for lighting, and a pigtail off that to power the TV stuff on the opposite side of the fireplace.

Off the 4 gang I will mount a surge protector power strip, with a rocker switch, and I will hook the heater controls up to that, and flip the heater off when I do water changes. The Mag 24 will run off the receptacle, as its destiny is to run forever, like my other faithful MAG pumps.

Am I missing anyhting power wise? I figure this tank will have the pump running both the sump and undersand jets, the heater controller and heater, and the lights. I have a lottel Time or Temp to monitor the temperature, but that's battery powered.


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## The King Crabb

CITADELGRAD87 said:


> Glad to have you along, King. If you see anything that seems hinky, don't be bashful and sing out. Your build experience is welcome here.


All the woodwork seems perfectly fine to me, you've done everything perfectly right so far :thumb:


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## CITADELGRAD87

The King Crabb said:


> CITADELGRAD87 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Glad to have you along, King. If you see anything that seems hinky, don't be bashful and sing out. Your build experience is welcome here.
> 
> 
> 
> All the woodwork seems perfectly fine to me, you've done everything perfectly right so far :thumb:
Click to expand...

Wow, thanks. Maybe I need to take more pictures... 

OK, tonight's progress. First, that pesky wire, it is/was copper, under the super bright work light it looked like gavlie/patina's aluminum, but it is copper. I cut it and ran it out of my way for now, tomorrow I will splice in a couple feet and forget about it, whatever it is.......

I finished up the sump shelf, I put legs under the corners, screwed the heck out of the 3/4 plywood shelf, and now it's EASY to climb in and out of the fish room through the tank hole, it makes a great step.

Before I even snapped a photo, I decided to test fit the sump. MAN is that a tight fit. I measured the distance between the top shelf for the main tank and the studs on the back wall at 16", the tank is 15", so of course I figured no problem.

Then I got it half way in and it stopped tight. I loosened the new drain fitting hose clamps and rotated them out of the way. I flattened the romex that's hanging for now on the back wall, I will later move that outlet. THen I had to temporarily pop the plywood below the sill plate and the crawl space on the far side of the fish room.

Tension mounted, I was not sure I could get it in without pulling apart the totally level and plump top frame....

Enough suspense, it fits PERFECTLY. The bottom shelf sticks out a couple inches more than the top and that puts the opening for the drain line on the sump end almost right under the drain in the overflow box, this should be easy to plumb in a couple days.

Here are some pictures of the stand thus far and the sump in place.

First is that bio tower I made myself and am so proud of, 10G bio balls, about 300G capacity, for my little old 100G tank









Here's a shot of the drain relative to the top of the sump where the drain line will come from to put into that drain.










Here's a shot inside the refugium area looking down at the shelf, not sure why but I like this shot:










Finally, here's the electrical, you can just see the sump for reference, I need to swap one of these out for a GFI, the other one is going to be switched so I can shut my sump pump off when the water is gone during water changes. I will also add a swithed power strip to that 2 x 4 right above the receptacles, I will switch that off to kill the heater so I don't kill the heater.










This last one is with my head in the hole but looking straight up, I put a receptacle there so I can plug my lights in and not have cords strung all over the place.










On a designer note, I have talked myself into black sand for substrate, I can get 20Lb bags of tahitian moon locally for $13.99 a bag, expensive, but hey, this thing is going to get a lot of airtime as it competes with the TV in the man cave, the bar is also in this room, and I cannot wait to have haps and peacocks swimming in moonlight from my LEDS while I relax after this tough project.

I am having a cobblestone background made, it will feature undersand jets, which I can now paint black to hide them, and an Aquaticlife 60" 4 bulb T5HO wih LEDS, and integrated timers.

I just hope there's room in the budget for FISH.... 

Ok, it's been a long week or so, off to bed. I hope to test fit the tank this weekend.

Stay tuned, and if you see something that looks goofy, please sing out. I am open to all suggestions, and would rather deal with it now than have to reopen the project later.


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## Steve C

Looking good looks like your makin' some serious headway now, and the "Y" for the PWC built right into the tank room will make PWC's nice and easy :thumb:

As to the wire you were talking about...if it is a "wire" then it is 100% NOT from any sort of lightning rods on the house. All home lightning rods use cable instead of wire due to wire having so much more resistance than cable. So if it is wire and not a cable then it most likely is from some old antenna that use to be on the roof.

Just a suggestion on the UG jets your talking about painting black to match your substrate....most good home centers (Home Depot/Lowes) carry PVC in not only white but also black. So making them out of black PVC would assure you never having to retouch up the paint :wink:

Great project I'm enjoying seeing your progreess :thumb:


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## CITADELGRAD87

Thanks, Steve, I think I can see the end of the project.

I just got back from a little field trip, I stopped by [a national retailer that happens to be local] will call and grabbed six bags of Tahitian Moon Sand-Black, of course.

And a couple very reasonably priced hose fittings.

I am going to hit this very hard tomorrow, my goal is to fit the stand top, test fit the aquarium, snap some photos, then remove the tank for final preparations. I still have not cut the door to the room, and the background is not here yet, and will have to be installed in the tank and let the silicone cure for a week or so.

By then I will be ready to reinstall the tank, put it in final position, paint and install the UGJs, substrate, some rocks I don't have yet, then a fill up for a fishless cycle using some filter material from my 50 filters and some Dr Tim's One and Only.

Can you tell I am getting excited yet?


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## PfunMo

Just wanted to ask if you are up on the way GFCI can be wired to protect several outlets in a string. One can be used to make them all GFCI so around the room one can do all that you tie together. Wiring diagrams are often provided with the GFCI?? Just a thought for that second outlet, maybe?


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## Yxhyn

wow this is nice...


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## Agridion

Looks really good. :thumb: what's the clearance between the top of the sump and the 2 x 4" tank support? From the pictures it looks tight. Just leave some room to get your arm into the sump for maintenance.


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## CITADELGRAD87

Its right about 4 inches. I can reach the filter batting on the drip tray, but to actually touch the sump bottom,which is 18 inces deep, i need to empty the sumpnand slide it out about 3 inches. Less than ideal, but there is a gas line right under the sump shelf which mandated the height. Anything major will have to be done during a water change with the sump empty.

Like any project where part of it was started by guys I never met, in 1965, I had to make some compromises. I am just going to have to make it work.

Pfunmo, yes, that is my plan, i have a couple circuits that are like that. I didnt wire them though. i have a buddy thats a real electrician that will get a call if I have any trouble.


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## CITADELGRAD87

Today was a big day, I put the top on the tank stand, test fitted the tank, and cut the door for the fish room.

Although I had to take the tank back out to the garage almost immediately, seeing the tank in the wall REALLY made this seem like a nearly complete project. I am very excited now.

Here is the new top with the cutout for the drilled drain:



















The is was time, we put the tank in place for a first test fitting:
































































Now that it's open and I don't have to climb over the stand, here's a shot inside the room










Finally, here's what the fish will see once they move in










Here's the wall where the door will go about 5 minutes after thsi was taken










Here's the opening from the family room side


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## CITADELGRAD87

That's where I ran out of time today. This week, I need to get my background from the supplier, install it and let the silicone cure, and install the tank once and for all.

Once it is in place, I can finish tweaking the undersand jets, paint those jets black, confirm that the sides of the tank will act as mirrors so I don't have to paint them, put the jets in, put in the moon sand and get some rockwork in place, and fill this puppy up for a FINAL leak check, then, the fishless cycle.

Stay with me, we should have fish before Thanksgiving.


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## mightyevil

Looks good, keep up the good work!!!


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## CITADELGRAD87

This week was slow steady progress, the wiring is all straightened out, the line is GFI protected, I have a singel switched outlet for the pump during water changes. Right above the strip, I will install a switched power strip so I can pull the heater off line during water changes.

Today, Saturday, was another good day for progress. My DISE (do it someone else) background shipped Thursday, it should be here Tuesday. By then, I plan to have the room ready to accept the tank for the final install. I need to washo out the tank, it got dusty from the wood cutting in the garage, fit the background, perform final tweaks to the jets, paint the jets black and let them cure, and then put the tank in the wall.

With that in mind, today I stuffed the walls with good old soft fiberglass insulation, then added sound board, a cardboard like sound deadening material. I will top it with drywall, 5/8 instead of 1/2 to give a bit more sound deadening. My wife commented on the noise several times while I was testing the sump in the garage, so I made a durso, I will mount the Mag pump on a 1 inch foam panel, and will strap the PVC to the stand frame for sound insulation.

I was going to leave the sound board exposed, but it's REALLY soft, like cardboard, and seems absorbent, I went with mold resistant drywall, and this should toughen up the walls for the occasional accidental bump.

Here are the photos:










Inside the room:










Here's a shot from outside showing the hose bib and the drain neatly covered but still accessible










And the room shot of the newly cleaned up space










Next stop, drywall, then this room is complete except for the tank intall itself. I hope to be cycling by next weekend.


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## Agridion

opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: looking good.


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## The King Crabb

opcorn: =D> :thumb: Loving it!


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## CITADELGRAD87

Thanks, guys, it's starting to come together at last.


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## Steve C

Lookin good man. Make sure to post a pic when that BG gets there Tuesday :thumb:


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## vann59

Well, this is no doubt going to be a Christmas to remember with a great family gift built into the wall. Hopefully you will get many years of enjoyment from this project. Looks like you're doing a great job.

A couple little things I thought of, that you may already have covered, but I thought I might mention them just in case.

Since there will be a substantial amount of evaporation (what with the sump and all), I would suggest that you make sure the air circulates well enough from the room into the house, and will allow your home A/C to deal with the moisture, which I assume it can handle well, to prevent any mold problems.

And since you do use the fireplace on occasion, at those times, it will likely be a significant source of heat within the fish room, and it could cause a temperature increase inside the fish room, so if you have a digital thermometer, that you can see easily, it might afford an early warning for any overheating problem. And a quiet little circulation fan in either wall, located up high, along with an intake vent, like maybe a large return A/C vent, located lower, perhaps in the entry door or below the tank on the viewing wall, about knee level, would help with the potential buildup of moisture and/or heat.

Also, another water issue, you probably have thought of, is you will need a splash shield on the inside of the viewing wall, just above the tank, so when they do a 'shamu splash', it doesn't wet the wall board above the tank. A plexiglass panel stuck to the wall, siliconed along the top edge of the tank rim would work nicely. Likewise, if you silicone the wood trim to the glass on the viewing side, it will keep 'window cleaner' from dripping down inside the wall when you clean the outside glass.

Great looking job. It will be nice to see the finished product. Do you have your peas and haps stocking figured out yet?


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## CITADELGRAD87

Thanks, Vann. I appreciate the thoughts, especially the little things like sealing the front for splashes. Little things make life easier.

Regarding ventilation, If you look at the picture here










you can just see the space between the peaked family room ceiling, which is solid wood, and the joists of the second story. The whole area is open, and opens to the main attic above the second floor. So it's not truly a sealed room by any stretch. I easily fit up there and can crawl around.

Additionally, there is a crawl space under the room that the back of the tank faces, I could vent that with a small panel if humudity seems to be causing problems, and get a flow from the crawl space under the house and thruogh the attic. The trouble is that while I was working on the room before I closed up the crawl space, there was quite the wind whipping in the crawlspace, when this was open, and I don't want a cold or hot draft shooting in between the floors.

I plan to cover the main tank with plexiglass to slow evaporation, and will add a Sea World style acrylic splash guard. I have some extra plexi and even thought about covering the sump, but I worry about heat buildup.

What do you think?


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## CITADELGRAD87

Forgot my stock list, I need to go back one more time and cut the 8" or larger fish, but here is my list, as I am not sure I won't just get them and re home when they blow past six or seven inches:

Haps:

Copadichromis azureus 
Copadichromis borleyi (Kadango) 
Copadichromis chrysonotus 
C Moorii 
Otopharynx lithobates 
Placidochromis electra 
Plac. sp Jalo 
Plac milomo 
Placidochromis phenochilus "Tanzania" 
Myelochromis lateristriga 
Protomelas spilonotus 
Protomelas sp spilonatus Tanzania 
Prot sp Steveni Taiwan 
Prot taeniolatus Red 
Sciaenopchromis fryeri Maleri Island.

For Peacocks:

Auloncara German Red OR 
Baenschi, incl albino (one only of the 3) 
Aul ethelwynnae 
Aul koningsi 
Auloncara sp Lwanda 
Aul masoni 
aul maulana 
Aul solisi 
auloncara stuartgranti Chiloelo 
Aul sturatgranti Ngara flametail


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## vann59

New postPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:44 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Report post
Thanks, Vann. I appreciate the thoughts, especially the little things like sealing the front for splashes. Little things make life easier.

"Regarding ventilation, If you look at the picture here you can just see the space between the peaked family room ceiling, which is solid wood, and the joists of the second story. The whole area is open, and opens to the main attic above the second floor. So it's not truly a sealed room by any stretch. I easily fit up there and can crawl around.

Additionally, there is a crawl space under the room that the back of the tank faces, I could vent that with a small panel if humudity seems to be causing problems, and get a flow from the crawl space under the house and thruogh the attic. The trouble is that while I was working on the room before I closed up the crawl space, there was quite the wind whipping in the crawlspace, when this was open, and I don't want a cold or hot draft shooting in between the floors.

I plan to cover the main tank with plexiglass to slow evaporation, and will add a Sea World style acrylic splash guard. I have some extra plexi and even thought about covering the sump, but I worry about heat buildup."

It sounds like you have a good handle on that issue. If it turns out to be too drafty, you might have to limit air flow rather than create it. I would definitely monitor temperature and humidity for the first year to see how it varies with weather conditions. It might require you to have more heater wattage, maybe using two separate heaters. Anyway, you are aware of it and can figure that out.

My Fluval E heater has a neat feature that if the water temperature is off by two degrees the digital screen will change to blue or red to indicate that visually. Of course there is that convenience on the one hand, versus the visual beauty of having no equipment in view, it's a personal choice.

Perhaps a thin layer of styrofoam on the back and side glass panes of the tank might even help to insulate a little bit if the temperature varies a lot, but of course heat does rise. There are probably a lot of possibilities, and you will no doubt find out what works best as you go.


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## vann59

CITADELGRAD87 said:


> Forgot my stock list, I need to go back one more time and cut the 8" or larger fish, but here is my list, as I am not sure I won't just get them and re home when they blow past six or seven inches:
> 
> Haps:
> 
> Copadichromis azureus
> Copadichromis borleyi (Kadango)
> Copadichromis chrysonotus
> C Moorii
> Otopharynx lithobates
> Placidochromis electra
> Plac. sp Jalo
> Plac milomo
> Placidochromis phenochilus "Tanzania"
> Myelochromis lateristriga
> Protomelas spilonotus
> Protomelas sp spilonatus Tanzania
> Prot sp Steveni Taiwan
> Prot taeniolatus Red
> Sciaenopchromis fryeri Maleri Island.
> 
> For Peacocks:
> 
> Auloncara German Red OR
> Baenschi, incl albino (one only of the 3)
> Aul ethelwynnae
> Aul koningsi
> Auloncara sp Lwanda
> Aul masoni
> aul maulana
> Aul solisi
> auloncara stuartgranti Chiloelo
> Aul sturatgranti Ngara flametail


Theses are some great looking fish, but you may have some 'coloration' issues. If you have a German Red, a Red Shoulder (Chiloelo), and a Ngara flametail, the chance of all three coloring up well are probably slim.

Sometimes you may get two similar colored peacocks to both color up, but three, unless you had a really long tank, I wouldn't count on it, but I could be wrong on that. It's really hard to choose too, with great looking fish like those.

Since you also want to get a Lwanda, and they are more aggressive than the Ngara or German will probably be, then that might be another factor to consider with general aggression. But you can't solve all those issues in advance, there will no doubt be surprises no matter what you do.


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## PfunMo

There will always be the unexpected but I might give you a heads up on the Protomelas sp spilonatus Tanzania . Are you familiar with them? Kept them? I was really surprised when A friend suddenly dumped a bunch for me to keep for a while. They are huge fish but can't handle a lot of the mbuna types. The quick little guys with attitude scared mine to death. I only kept them together for a few months but their stress level was pretty high. They are open water schooling types and the three types of mbuna I tried them with would come up under them and scare them almost out of the water. I had three with gashes in their head from banging into the center brace on my 125. It was a relief to pass them on just to quiet the splashing all night!

While the Copadichromis and Sciaenopchromis fryeri are technically haps, they are full blown mbuna at heart. I might expect trouble there.

This is a picture of my 125. The Protomelas are all jammed together at the left end because the kenyi won't let them come to "his" end of the tank and believe me they were much bigger. The picture skews the size due to him being closer. 









As a good point for them-- they will not eat even the smallest fry. That is what the blue arrow was pointing to for a friend to spot.


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## CITADELGRAD87

I am not familiar with them, thanks for the heads up. I looked at profiles and pictures and tried to find fish that looked good and would fit.

There is wiggle room, the stock list is longer than my stocking comfort level, so I may bump them off, but man those are pretty fish.

At this point, I haven't fallen in love with any, so it's not really a big deal to modify the list.

Thanks for the heads up.


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## CITADELGRAD87

OK, this part is only DIY insofar as the actual install, but I purchased a custom 3D background after seeing that a couple members here, BradyK specifically, got such a nice product from them.

I completely admire the artistic people here who can take a sheet of foam and take away whatever isn't needed so that a realistic background is left. Because of the size of my project, I didn't want to have my in wall 100G be the first background that I ever made, so I spent the money and I am REALLY glad I did. The project has dragged on long enough, I didn't need another 4 weeks for my artistic troubles to manifest. Since I am building it in, I feared that I would never reach "good enough."

After a couple emails back and forth about what I wanted and what they thought, we decided to include a channel along the left side to carry that ugly 1.5" down tube that powers the USandJs and returns the sump water to the main tank. To the right side, the background wraps around and somewhat camoflages the overflow box.

I was able to send this crayola paint diagram that shows you my basic tank setup with critical measurements










After the configuration was set, it was a matter of my wife and I deciding what looked best. I was torn between a monochrome river rock scheme and a multi colored cobblestone scheme (although they have many others, these were the 2 I focused on). Thinking ahead for once, I decided that the real rocks in the tank needed to fit the scheme, so the river rock colors would ensure that just about any colored rocks will work and not create a tension between the large background and the rest of the tank. I also wanted to retain as much tank volume as I could despite the down tube and overflow projections. They were able to handle this easily. Well, they made it look easy, any way.

After initial construction, they emailed me some photos and they were happy to tweak it to my liking. Honestly, looking back, it's kind of hard to imagine that we were able to comunicate so well, with me not being artistic and not being able to see it except through photos.

Any way, here's the packing job they did:



















There was a ton of balled up neswpaper cushioning the contents. Every part was wrapped, first in a lot of bubble wrap, then in some light foam sheet.

Enough of the slow roll, here's the only piece I unwrapped at my office. I want to leave the rest wrapped up so they don't bang together on the way home










And a close up










It feels funny, it is not as heavy as rock, but it is wayt heavier than foam. It also feels cool to the touch, I think there is some kind of thin mortar or cement as a coating, but I am not sure and do not intend to let anyone's secret formula out of the bag.

Tonight, I need to clean out the tank and test fit this bad boy, expect some more pictures later. The tanks has been sitting in the garage in the direct path of MDF, plywood, drywall, and all other cutting that is involved in this project.

I completely respect the forum rules regarding posting vendor info, so if anyone wants their contact info, please PM me and I will flip you the address.

So tonight, I need to swing by Home Depot for some drywall screws, a couple more 2 x 4s to build my fish room door, and one piece of melamine for the TV cabinet shelf. I should be in a position to install the tank in the wall this weekend, I will try to get the BG installed tonight, and I will let it gas off and set up until Saturday or so. I also need to finalize the jet configuration and spray that black asap so it can gas off as well.

Fishless cycle is approaching rapidly.

Thanks for watching.


----------



## PfunMo

Very nice looking background. Possibly the best suited to what I like. I'm not a background user/builder either. Possible that people who know hammers and can work them are lacking in the use of paintbrushes smaller then 4"??? Some way my attempts at "natural" just don't get it done!


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## Bradyk

Wow! This is turning out to be quite the project! Hats off to you sir for your amazing build, I hope my build will go as smooth as yours. I'm very curious on how this is going to look and love that background so far and can't wait to see more pictures. Dang you now I think I will have to go with that style of background for my new tank!

When I got mine ups smashed the **** out of it and Im so glad that these guys packaged there backgrounds so well, I've heard other people on the net getting BTN backgrounds from other company's and the packing wasnt any good and just destroyed the background. Point and simple these guys take care of there customers.

Good job! we all will be waiting to see this full of water and stocked! opcorn:


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## CITADELGRAD87

Thanks, Pfunmo and Brady! I am really excited to see the rest of it and get it installed, I can see the end of the project now.

Brady, I was so worried the contents were messed up that I took a picture before I opened it, no worries, though, it was safely cocooned in paper and foam and bubble wrap. These guys KNOW what they are doing.

I can't wait to start my cycle.


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## CITADELGRAD87

Crapopla, I typed this out and it jumped screens right before I submitted it.

Anyway, I spazzed out and grabbed GE II window and door, I think it's wrong so I will be checking after this post, I did not use it, so pardon the white boards propping up the BG in some photos.

Here's te cliff notes since I am tired

Here's the tank before










Here's the BG all set up on the floor, which is a good thing, because afer I got it in, the glare is a problem and the boards obscure some of it.










In place but propped up



















Here's what they were able to do for the overflow box



















And finally, here's my pudmilla super fry, 1.5 inches of colored up badness, he was watching me work on the 100G while he is cooped up in a 10G grow out tank. He may find his way in there, I was never much of a purist










Ok, 10 minutes of GE I vs II research, then off to bed.


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## Bradyk

Holy f#%#!!! wow that is nice! Looks like it fits like a glove, I would have to say this is probably one of my favs and must have BG! Cool idea how they covered up the overflow box I would have never thought of that. I used Ge silicone 1 attic and doors and worked just fine for me. Just make sure you read the directions and soak the background. Awesome job so far I bet the family can't wait for you to finish! :thumb:


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## Steve C

CITADELGRAD87 said:


> Crapopla, I typed this out and it jumped screens right before I submitted it.
> 
> Anyway, I spazzed out and grabbed GE II window and door, I think it's wrong so I will be checking after this post, I did not use it, so pardon the white boards propping up the BG in some photos.
> 
> Ok, 10 minutes of GE I vs II research, then off to bed.


You want the clear GE Silicon I "Window/door" without the Mildew inhibitor. It will be the blue&white bottle not the red&white one.

BG looks good looks like your coming along very nicely now :thumb:


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## CITADELGRAD87

It's a funny puzzle, the Silicone II says 100% silicone, and does not say anything about mold resistance or anything.

I have actually decided to try to find some DAP black 100% silicone to fill the minor gaps, if any, between the sections.

Grainger carries it, but it is not in stock at any local store that I can find, the search continues.


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## zade

Looking good bro. Read through the whole article, love the writing with added suspense! GE 1 is def. the way to go, there are many stickys on this wonderful site (all butt kissing aside, real talk) dedicated to GE 1. And I hope that'd be right because this guy has already used a ton of it. Good job, keep at it. I'd also like to see this secret door once you're finished. :thumb:


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## [email protected]

Just wanted to stop by and look at the thread you sent us. Its looking good so far and I'm glad we could be apart and help you.

I was reading through this and I was wondering why you are wanting to use black silicone to cover the seams? The pieces of the background should fit tight and not leave any gaps once siliconed in place.

Good luck with the rest of your build.

Kyle


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## quentin8

Looks amazaing...save your 10min and go with GE I


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## CITADELGRAD87

Thanks, guys, Kyle, it looks awesome. I just want to make certain that there is no light visible, the background fits very well, I just want to go the extra step because I am building it in and planning on staring at it for 10 years or so. I got a toothpaste tube of all glass black acrylic, and am just running a bead on the glass at the joints to block all light.

I can't wait to fill it up and light it to see what it looks like.

PS and I did swap out the GE II for GE I clear, window and door, and am rocking the install.


----------



## vann59

PfunMo said:


> While the Copadichromis and Sciaenopchromis fryeri are technically haps, they are full blown mbuna at heart. I might expect trouble there.
> 
> This is a picture of my 125. The Protomelas are all jammed together at the left end because the kenyi won't let them come to "his" end of the tank and believe me they were much bigger. The picture skews the size due to him being closer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a good point for them-- they will not eat even the smallest fry. That is what the blue arrow was pointing to for a friend to spot.


Since the Kenyi is an herbivore, it's seems natural that they wouldn't eat the fry, but they aren't recommended as community fish because of the aggression (and because killing and eating don't always go together). I had a Copadichromis Azureus and actually got him when he was a good 3" long and he was larger than most of my peas and haps, but he was a bit timid at times, and once in a while would stand his ground, but he wasn't a bossy fish at all, but of course the fish don't read their own profiles so they don't know how they're supposed to act.


----------



## vann59

CITADELGRAD87 said:


> Here's the BG all set up on the floor, which is a good thing, because afer I got it in, the glare is a problem and the boards obscure some of it.


If you have a problem with glare off of the rocks after install here is a thought. I don't remember if you are planning to have real plants, but if you have actinic lights, and grow algae on the background, not only would it look really good, but if it's heavy enough, it should help reduce glare as well.


----------



## PfunMo

I was speaking of the Insignus rather than the Kenyi. He shows no interest in eating small fish but he does kill them when they don't leave his end or stay out of his way. So far he has done in two of five insignus fry but the three left are much more aware now, so I think they will be okay. At this point they are on their own as I am not going to try to sort them out in that tank. I had six adult Protomelas stored for a time in a 20 gallon with about twenty rainbow cichlid fry and they never looked at the fry. I was pretty amazed but sometimes things work better than expected. The Hongi just above the arrow is about two inches and totally safe but at the point of the arrow, there is a tiny Hongi who is just testing whether he can come out or not. I have seen at least five that have learned what is needed.


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

vann59 said:


> CITADELGRAD87 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the BG all set up on the floor, which is a good thing, because afer I got it in, the glare is a problem and the boards obscure some of it.
> 
> 
> 
> If you have a problem with glare off of the rocks after install here is a thought. I don't remember if you are planning to have real plants, but if you have actinic lights, and grow algae on the background, not only would it look really good, but if it's heavy enough, it should help reduce glare as well.
Click to expand...

Yes, I hope to try my hand at both Java Moss and Anubias, I have already purchased an Aquaticlife 60" 4 bulb T5HO with actinic and white set up for freshwater, as well as LEDs for moonlight, all on a single timer, should be cool and enough light for what I want to grow? I understand that "planting" on the rocks in the cracks will work better than substrate planting in some tanks.

The rocks are really lifelike and dull (hhm, that doesn't seem to make sense), the glare I was speaking of was from the tank front glass, but I do hope I can grow some algae and moss on these rocks.


----------



## Bradyk

Any updates yet!!!??? I finally ordered my new tank, I really want to see what yours is gonna look like. Me and the wife are torn between your background and a larger version of what we already have.

And expect alot of pm's from me when I start the in wall project lol


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

Bradyk said:


> Any updates yet!!!??? I finally ordered my new tank, I really want to see what yours is gonna look like. Me and the wife are torn between your background and a larger version of what we already have.
> 
> And expect alot of pm's from me when I start the in wall project lol


Brady, I will PM you my email so you can get in touch if you get stuck.

Thanks to all who are following and supporting me on this fairly involved project. It's cool when I know there are prople pulling to see how this turns out.

The background is in, but the tank is on it's back, I can't photograph it without a ladder.

I decided on clear GE I for the main adhesion on the back, and I buttered the butt joints of the individual panels with black all glass acrylic. Make no mistake, they fit together well enough to hold each other in place and I could not get a credit card in the seams, but I am a bit of a freak, and I did not want light to shine though between them if I am in the room feeding while I am showing off my fish.

The silicone will cure in the garage until Sunday am, that's 3 days for the majority of the tank, 2 full days for the last piece I installed last night. I will probably wait until Monday night to fill it just to be safe and make sure it's cured before I add any water.

Sunday, I will install the tank in the wall for its permanent home, and final fit the undersand jets, the back row of jets needs to move towards the front about 4 inches, and I want to add one more jet. Then I need to pull the whole jet assembly and spray it black (I see a white UGJ I want to paint it black!!--The Stones) and let it gas off while I do the background soak and water change 3X over about a week, just to leach it out per the excellent instructions taht ship with the BG. I also need to add the drain line from the overflow to the sump, and the return line needs to get plumbed. My first fish purposed ball valves!

I also need to see about how to mount the lights, I am thinking about hanging them from chains to the floor joists above the tank, what height should a 4 bulb 60" unit hang above a 24" deep tank? The legs are about 4", but that seems to cover a lot of the top, and the legs just have the light sitting in the way. All I need is to bump the light rearranging something and have the powered up light drop into the tank. Believe me, I have sent my Little Time and Temp thermometers to the bottom SEVERAL TIMES.

I also need to add drywall for the other 2 walls, i ran out of 2" screws hanging the first sheet. Still undecided about painting the greenish mold resistant walls, main reason I would not is I can't bear the idea of sanding any seams in that phone booth of a room, especially with the tank in place. Actually, the layout means that the only seams are the inside corners, so maybe I will finish paint the room.

Oh, I also need to make and hang the super secret squirrel door, I grabbed a 6 foot piano hinge and some 2 x 4s for that, I will just make a box, skin it with drywall and panel for the front, stuff it with insulation, and skin the inside with the sound board and the drywall.

So the weekend after Thanksgiving, I should be doing a final black jet install, add my Tahitian Moon sand substrate, and then, folks, it just might be time to start the fishless cycle. I need to remember to get some rocks, too.

On the unrelated TV side of the same room, I need to install a shelf for the components, fill the screw holes and run some painters caulk, and paint the wall. Hopefully the tank will be in and I can cut the frame for the tank, so I can paint the whole wall at the same time.

Project wrap up, construction wise, in a week or so, although I have been telling my wife the same time fram for about 4 weeks now. :dancing:


----------



## Pizzle

I think it will be difficult for anyone to tell you how high above the tank the lights should be. It would be cool if you set it up so that the height was easily adjustable by some sort of pulley mechanism.


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## CITADELGRAD87

Pizzle said:


> I think it will be difficult for anyone to tell you how high above the tank the lights should be. It would be cool if you set it up so that the height was easily adjustable by some sort of pulley mechanism.


I am brainstorming myself about a 2 tiered system so I could just get them out of the way and put them back when finished.


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## zade

Pizzle said:


> I think it will be difficult for anyone to tell you how high above the tank the lights should be. It would be cool if you set it up so that the height was easily adjustable by some sort of pulley mechanism.


+1 :thumb:


----------



## Bradyk

CITADELGRAD87 said:


> Pizzle said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it will be difficult for anyone to tell you how high above the tank the lights should be. It would be cool if you set it up so that the height was easily adjustable by some sort of pulley mechanism.
> 
> 
> 
> I am brainstorming myself about a 2 tiered system so I could just get them out of the way and put them back when finished.
Click to expand...

You could put shocks on the lights like they use for car hatches, I've seen people on the web use them for there canopies, and then you just rig up a 2x4 or something on the ceiling for them to attach to. This way you can just gently push the light up with your hand a couple of feet and when your done just push them back down. You can get them pretty cheap from autoparts stores.


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## CITADELGRAD87

Two threads about these struts, I suggested it on the other one, you suggest it on this one, that's kind of strange.

Can you link me to a picture so I can come up with something?

Thanks, and check your PM.


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## PfunMo

I think you may, in fact find the lights in the way when they are lighting the tank right. If they are hanging from chain with links, how about a set of sturdy hooks at the top of the light? Lift one end of the light and hook the hook through the chain link as high as you want, then repeat at the other end? When finished working, unhook and let it back down. Fasten the lower end of the chain solid to the light so that if it gets fumbled while moving, the chain catchs it before it reachs the tank.

I have to assume I will fumble!!!


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## Pizzle

Check out the pulley system that this person made.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... &start=105


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## CITADELGRAD87

Pizzle said:


> Check out the pulley system that this person made.
> 
> http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... &start=105


Interesting, I have looked at that build but missed that. Elegant yet functional, looks like 6 pulleys, a couple carabiners, and some eye bolts. I could bang that out easily enough.


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## vann59

CITADELGRAD87 said:


> Pizzle said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it will be difficult for anyone to tell you how high above the tank the lights should be. It would be cool if you set it up so that the height was easily adjustable by some sort of pulley mechanism.
> 
> 
> 
> I am brainstorming myself about a 2 tiered system so I could just get them out of the way and put them back when finished.
Click to expand...

If you use a some 'S' hooks, you could make a way to raise it up for access with almost no additional cost.


----------



## vann59

PfunMo said:


> I think you may, in fact find the lights in the way when they are lighting the tank right. If they are hanging from chain with links, how about a set of sturdy hooks at the top of the light? Lift one end of the light and hook the hook through the chain link as high as you want, then repeat at the other end? When finished working, unhook and let it back down. Fasten the lower end of the chain solid to the light so that if it gets fumbled while moving, the chain catchs it before it reachs the tank.
> 
> I have to assume I will fumble!!!


Yeah, that's what I was thinking.


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

I extend sincere thanks to everyone following along and encouraging me with tips and "dont forget x" type advice. The community aspect of this is really amazing.

Assumption #1 for me is that at least one thing is going to go wrong. As referenced above, I am on my second little time and temp thermometer from dropping it repeatedly into my 50. The immersion actually didn't kill it, but there was serious corrosion after my torture tests.

So yesterday I fixated on the lighting suspension problem. This particular light has a suspension system provision that gets terible reviews. There are 4 phillips screws in the top of the unit. The suspension system terminates in four tapped connectors that are the same thread as these screws. Remove thescrews and add the connectors.

My idea is to remove one screw and determine the pitch, then find some hardware that will fit, ideally an eye bolt, but I don't think I am going to get that lucky. Alternatives might be a flat buckle or connector of some kind that I can run the screw through and reinstall.

I am open to ideas, this may end up just being a google search for an x tpi eye bolt? Thank goodness for the internet.

Once I figure out how to connect the lamp to any kind of hangar, I am in business, I can just run a series of pulleys and I can put the lamp whereever I want it.

I am getting the tires rotated/oil changed on my wifes car this am, so this will have to wait til later today. I will check back with the specifics on the screw and maybe get some suggestions on how to proceed.


----------



## PfunMo

For things that may make a mess if they fail, I shy away from screw threads. The thin metal they are in sometimes makes me nervous. Is there a way to drill through the fixture and use an eyebolt that has threads and a nut? I would favor that with either double nuts or mashing the threads so the nut can't back off.


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

I will have to pull it apart. I am not sure how thick the housing is, it appears to be tapped to at least 1/8 or 1/4 inch. I am not sure how thick the housing is or whether there is a place to run a bolt through.

I may be able to thread something in from the front and use a nut tight against the outside to lock it in?


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

OK, I tried to upload this update two times, both times my laptop conspired to make me re write it. Good think I have good things to report, I will stick with this until I get it to load.

I worked all day today and got the drywall in except for a tiny part below the stand.










Here's the part I left open to ensure airflow, that's the space between the floors



















The last photo is a bit of a spoiler, I did install the tank for good today. Here are two daylight shots of it before I added the wood back on the bottom to make it look like it belongs, but I was so exceited to finally get it in, I shot some pictures anyway.



















Then I added back in the wood that I removed to get the tank in place, it really makes it look like it belongs there. I still need to get some 1/4 round to blend the step between the face of the wall and the glass, the wood is about 3/4 thick. I will also add some trim around the outside of the tank perimeter to finish it off.










After it got dark, I hung a single CFL work light in there anad tried to light up the 3d background, it looks pretty good now, but I think with water and fish, and a proper light, this is really going to anchor the room










I shut the flash off for this one










I also made some progress on the undersand jets, I shortened the entire jet system from front to back to make room for the 3d packground, and added a jet, once I finalize it I will pull it out and spray it black



















As usual, I ran out of weekend before I was ready. I still need to build and hang the door. I need to run the drain and the sump return lines, but I think I have all the parts. While I was putting the tank in I got a distinct whiff of vinegar, so the silicone is still gassing, I am going to hold off several days before I add any water.

One thing on the drain line, does anyone know if a short 90 90 arrangement joined by a 3-4 inch horizontal PVC segment will slow the drain significantly? The whole run is only about 7 inches, down 3 for the 90, across 3-4 inches to the other 90, then straight down into the drip tray?

The top of the sump is so close to the bottom of the tank, my options are limited. I planned to use 45s to shoot the drain down at an angle, but it is so tight that I don't think I can get the center piece in between the 45s. I guess I could lift teh tank up a couple inches, stick a stub PVC piece between the 45s, and set it down, locking it in? Soft hose is out of the question, the nipples are so long that the top nipple ends below the top of the bottom nipple if that makes sense.

Thanks all for following. This week I need to find some 6M x 1.0 eyebolts, four of them, for a suspension system for the lights, I can't seem to find them locally.


----------



## vann59

Really sweet. The wife will make you fix up the whole house now to look as good as the fish tank.

Don't worry about the two 90's, the little bit of friction really isn't going to make a significant difference. Trapped air would be more likely to slow it down.


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

Just in time for some company on Thanksgiving, last night I banged out the door framing, and skinned, insulated, and sound proofed the door.

I decided that since the door is supposed to be as concealed as possible, the framing at the sides would be a 2 x4, but rotated 90 degrees to let the frame swing close to the wall framing without having to trim it. The top and bottom plates are arranged normally, the sides are thinner.

I used a 6 foot piano hinge, I wasn't sure it would hold but it has screws every 3 inches or so, it seems plenty sturdy.

Anyway, here are some poor quality cell phone pictures, there isn't a lot of light there, so it had trouble focusing while the door was closed, but I picked the best pictures.




























EDIT--the part at the extreme right that looks like a monster gap is just the shiny piano hinge, it's nice and tight all the way around. I will rig it with one of those magnet latches that pops the door open and alternatively holds it shut.

I still need to skin the outside with paneling to match the rest of the wall, and will be shifting to plumbing now.

I am still getting a slight vinegar smell near the background, not overpowering, but I am going to let that sit and cure for as long as it takes, I will check it this weekend. I have some UGJ work to do and other plumbing in the meantime.


----------



## The King Crabb

Looks great! How hard was it to make that door work well?


----------



## PfunMo

Making progress and looking good. It' a bear when we want to do it right but it all takes so long!


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

The King Crabb said:


> Looks great! How hard was it to make that door work well?


I would not say it was particularly hard. However, I have until now shied away from hanging doors even in prefab situations.

Having said that, when I hung it, initially, the hinge was holding the door too close to the frame, and it did not want to stay shut. That was a minor fix, I just unscrewed the hings and shifted the door about 1/16 away from the frame.

I will say that in hanging the door, and the close tolerances I am trying for to make it fit will in a wall rather than a door frame, I was extraordinarily lucky. This could have gone wrong in about a dozen ways that only occured to me as I was checking fit and hanging the door.

I will take lucky on this one. It stays shut on its own even before any latch mechanism, it feel light on the hinges, and it stays open if you leave it open. Exactly how I hoped it would turn out.


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

I got the mechanics of the plumbing sorted out, nothing leaks, everything works as it should, at least for the hour I had time to pay attention to it last night.

I glued all the PVC except the saddle elbows at the edge of the tank, I was worried based on multiple incidents of press fit separations in the garage test runs, so I took no chances.

As mentioned in a separate thread I started re vibration, there is an audible hum in the living room, it seems to be the plumbing rather than the pump itself, I am chasing that down as we speak, I was not too excited aobut doing all that sound board precautions only to have this noise crop up.

I am planning on separating the pump from the plumbing with a soft vinyl tube inside the sump to see if that reduces the noise, it's not outrageous, but it is louder than I had hoped.

After I glued it al up, I was able to fill it and run it for a while, here are some test shots, the addition of water really makes the background jump out, and the sides mirror the back, hiding the wood that is visible when there is no water.

Photos:




























Here is what the overflow looks like running










Thanks for looking, and if anyone has any hum isolation secrets or tips, my family would greatly appreciate it.


----------



## BigDaddyK

Looking at your plumbing it looks like you went rigid right to the pump. 








I think you'll have better luck if you buy a piece of flexible tubing to act like a shock and absorb some of the vibration. If I'm wrong on your setup I apologize I'm just going by the photo.


----------



## vann59

The idea of using vinyl hose it good. If a pipe is resting on the tank, that could also carry vibration and cause noise. You might be able to make a home made stethoscope with some vinyl tubing and locate the noise from the living room side. Once you narrow down a particular place on the wall, it may help you to fix it. If the noise disappears when you turn off the pump, then that at least identifies the source.

Vibration analysis is used in heavy industries to prevent equipment breakdown by monitoring for early wear using sensors to predict the best times to do preventative maintenance. In this case you will have to manually track down the vibration, but it's doable.


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

Yes, it's rigid all the way from the pump to the end of the return jets.

Tonight, I plan to insert about 1 foot of soft vinyl tubing between the pump and the start of the PVC run. I will also do some detective work to try to find the source of the hum.

Thanks, guys.


----------



## [email protected]

Looking good, showed Dan the progress you have made and he is digging your build. Can't wait to see some fish in there!


----------



## vann59

CITADELGRAD87 said:


> Yes, it's rigid all the way from the pump to the end of the return jets.
> 
> Tonight, I plan to insert about 1 foot of soft vinyl tubing between the pump and the start of the PVC run. I will also do some detective work to try to find the source of the hum.
> 
> Thanks, guys.


If you can't stop the hum by using the hose, you might put the pvc back in the tank resting on lines of dried silicone as a vibration damper, if it comes down to that. More work, but it would probably dampen the vibration pretty well.


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

ok,tonight I pulled the bottom of the pvc. Now, from the pump to the edge of the sump is soft vinyl tubing, then it switches to pvc for the rest of the run. It knocked a lot of the hum, i think whats left is the pump. I can sort of tune it, moving the pump around sort of changes the pitch. Even with the soft tubing, if it touches the sump, it increases the noise.

I also doubled the thickness of the styrofoam pad that the pump sits on to about 2 inches. Vann, yur silicone bead idea is interesting. do you think its worth it to try now , either with or without the styro pads? Of all the tadtics, the styrofoam seems least effective right now. i have no pvc touching the sump but i could run a bead for the pump or the styrofoam pads to sit on.

a crazy thought is to add a soundboard pad under the whole sump, that would isolate any vibration from the tank bottom. Its thin enough that my plumbing should all still line up.


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

Starting again tonight. This week has been mostly tweaking plumbing. I need to get a dense sponge for a pad for the pump, the folded filter floss is too rickety. I have to keep re folding it and resetting the pump because it shifts and is hard to keep in place. There really isn't enough room under there to keep doing this all the time, so I am going to try a car or grout sponge. It's like trying to unlock my old Pinto with a 4" window gap, my arms are all torn up from tweaking it.

I also learned a cheap lesson, the last 2 unglued plumbing joins, specifically, the PVC conectors for that newly installed soft vinyl isolation run, blew out while the pump was on, I only lost about a quart of water on the floor, and the wife who was IN the TV room didn't notice, because I was able to slam a valve shut and tip the pump on its side, but let me tell you, a MAG 24 is able to toss QUITE a fountain at zero head height. Tonight, both get hose clamps and PVC glued FOREVER!!!!

Tonight I also hope to finish trimming the family room side, and priming and painting both the tank trim and the TV area, so at least from the TV room, it will look finished. Then I need to finish the door/weatherstripping, a tiny bit of drywall, maybe prime the sheetrock, hang the light, pull the jets and plumbing and spray it black, replace it, drop the substrate, add rocks, do another wather change per the background leeching, test the water, and start the fishless cycle. OUtside I need to finish hiding the secret door, and add a latch of some sort.

Whew.


----------



## dsouthworth

wow. well keep the posts coming. Looks like we're still a month away from water.


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## vann59

CITADELGRAD87 said:


> Starting again tonight. This week has been mostly tweaking plumbing. I need to get a dense sponge for a pad for the pump, the folded filter floss is too rickety. I have to keep re folding it and resetting the pump because it shifts and is hard to keep in place. There really isn't enough room under there to keep doing this all the time, so I am going to try a car or grout sponge. It's like trying to unlock my old Pinto with a 4" window gap, my arms are all torn up from tweaking it.
> 
> I also learned a cheap lesson, the last 2 unglued plumbing joins, specifically, the PVC conectors for that newly installed soft vinyl isolation run, blew out while the pump was on, I only lost about a quart of water on the floor, and the wife who was IN the TV room didn't notice, because I was able to slam a valve shut and tip the pump on its side, but let me tell you, a MAG 24 is able to toss QUITE a fountain at zero head height. Tonight, both get hose clamps and PVC glued FOREVER!!!!
> 
> Tonight I also hope to finish trimming the family room side, and priming and painting both the tank trim and the TV area, so at least from the TV room, it will look finished. Then I need to finish the door/weatherstripping, a tiny bit of drywall, maybe prime the sheetrock, hang the light, pull the jets and plumbing and spray it black, replace it, drop the substrate, add rocks, do another wather change per the background leeching, test the water, and start the fishless cycle. OUtside I need to finish hiding the secret door, and add a latch of some sort.
> 
> Whew.


You probably didn't figure it would be so easy didya? :lol:

Mag drives are usually really quiet, but vibration that travels through a distance of hard pipe can actually become exaggerated so that may be the problem. The soft sponge/foam idea sounds good. You could wrap it in a foam rubber sound shield. You might still need to put the silicone under the UGJ grid though. It would be easier now than later. It could be used underneath and around the bottom edges in case the piping shifted and began to touch the tank wall (you would probably only need two 'knobs' of silicone, like bumpers, on each wall near the bottom). I'm thinking it would be easier to just stick black nozzles on the jets than to paint them, then you don't have to worry about ever repainting. Just a thought.

opcorn:


----------



## PfunMo

Any old mouse pads around? They can make handy vibration dampers. If you can pry the pipes off the wood a bit and stick a slice of mouse pad between at any place it touches it might help and be pretty easy. Stick a little glue of some sort to hold it to the wood or it may work it's way out.


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

dsouthworth said:


> wow. well keep the posts coming. Looks like we're still a month away from water.


Maybe a month from fish, but there's already water in it! Once I sort out the plumbing vibration issue, paint the jets, etc, I plan to start the fishless cycle. The family room side of things got primed last night, hopefully painted tonight or tomorrow, then from the family room, the project is complete.


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

vann59 said:


> You probably didn't figure it would be so easy didya? :lol:
> 
> Mag drives are usually really quiet, but vibration that travels through a distance of hard pipe can actually become exaggerated so that may be the problem. The soft sponge/foam idea sounds good. You could wrap it in a foam rubber sound shield. You might still need to put the silicone under the UGJ grid though. It would be easier now than later. It could be used underneath and around the bottom edges in case the piping shifted and began to touch the tank wall (you would probably only need two 'knobs' of silicone, like bumpers, on each wall near the bottom). I'm thinking it would be easier to just stick black nozzles on the jets than to paint them, then you don't have to worry about ever repainting. Just a thought.
> 
> opcorn:


You know, I have been able to find 1.5 inch black pvc, actually I think its a differnt kind of pipe, but it fits the fittings, but I have never seen 3/4 in black locally, either at Home Depot or Lowes. Have you found it anywhere? I would not mind black nozzles at all, I just can't find them.

Today I bought a couple cheap neoprene mouse pads per Pfunmo's suggestion, I am going to try tossing one under the pump and will cut the other one into isolation pads, like motor mounts, for the PVC to wood contact points. I am also going to buy a tile sponge form Home Depot tonight, they are very dense and not super porous, I hope that the mouse pad or the sponge will make a good permanent base for the pump, the folded padding is too hard to keep in place.

I will run some silicone bumps to isolate the jets from the tank bottom when I drain it to paint or replace the jets with black pipe.


----------



## cantrell00

> You know, I have been able to find 1.5 inch black pvc, actually I think its a differnt kind of pipe, but it fits the fittings, but I have never seen 3/4 in black locally, either at Home Depot or Lowes. Have you found it anywhere? I would not mind black nozzles at all, I just can't find them.


I have never found them locally. HD, Lowe's, etc..

jehmco.com & glass-holes.com have them.


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## PfunMo

I have never seen PVC in black other than specialty items. The black I see at home centers is ABS, not PVC. The reason it comes in larger sizes is because it is not considered drinking water safe. That leaves it to be drain pipes which are mostly larger. There are many plastic items in black but not the ones we are talking about for tank use.


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## quentin8

Any progress? Hows the vibration issue going? opcorn:


----------



## vann59

CITADELGRAD87 said:


> You know, I have been able to find 1.5 inch black pvc, actually I think its a differnt kind of pipe, but it fits the fittings, but I have never seen 3/4 in black locally, either at Home Depot or Lowes. Have you found it anywhere? I would not mind black nozzles at all, I just can't find them.
> 
> Today I bought a couple cheap neoprene mouse pads per Pfunmo's suggestion, I am going to try tossing one under the pump and will cut the other one into isolation pads, like motor mounts, for the PVC to wood contact points. I am also going to buy a tile sponge form Home Depot tonight, they are very dense and not super porous, I hope that the mouse pad or the sponge will make a good permanent base for the pump, the folded padding is too hard to keep in place.
> 
> I will run some silicone bumps to isolate the jets from the tank bottom when I drain it to paint or replace the jets with black pipe.


I haven't had to look for the black, so it probably is a specialty item.

The neoprene pad sounds like a good idea, and easy enough. If it's not enough, you could probably glue in another layer or two and silence it, because neoprene is a good vibration damper.


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

Vibration issues are conquered for now. I still need to add some neoprene mouse pad between the pvc and the frame, but the combination of a neoprene pad and a dense grout sponge from the home depot all but silenced the vibration. Now there is a faint machine noise, but no hum.

I also painted the back black to prevent any light from creeeping in at the sides and seams of the background. The background is STELLAR, I already had to let a buddy touch it to prove it isn't a bunch of real rocks. There we're, however, very thin seems, probably from my install, but I want to do this right, and didn't want to take any chances with a sliver of light. Probably moot when the aquaticlife unit is on, but I am a belt and suspenders guy, especially with a built in like this. It looks neater now that you can't see the silicone ribbons I used to fix the background.

I also sprayed the jets with the same krylon for plastic paint. Its sitting in the garage curing. Whenever I convince myself its cured, I will reinstall the jets and durso, and it will be ready for sand, black tahitian moon sand for this tank, a change from the sandblasting tan sand in my other tank.

I just need to glue the connectors for the soft tubing, and add the hose clamps, and the tank is done and ready to fishless cycle. I also need to make up some acrylic panels to cover the main tank and install the heater and controller, and the lights, hopefully this week.

I trimmed out the frame around the tank, and primed it all, it looks pretty cool, but I taped the glass and left the tape for the finish coat of paint, so no pictures for tonights update. I hope to paint the whole wall and the tv built in tomorrow night, then, at least from the family room, the project is done. Then I just need to finish up the door

Christmas lights took up most of the weekend, but Saturday I cleaned up the garage as best I could. All the stuff that came with this tank, the stand, the protein skimmer, that euro fil sump, and probably the mag 12 are going on cl this week to defray some of the project costs.

More soon, thanks for following, and cool pictures at the next update.


----------



## inurocker

Glad to hear the foam sponge and neoprene got you quieten down. Give your jets a soak in some hot water and you should be good to go. Don't you hate it when life interferes with your fish hobby.


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

Inurocker, yes, mundane things have greatly delayed the completion of this project.

Well, I've said it before, but I think we are on the home stretch, here's an appropriate movie still I snapped Sunday night:










Last night, I finished painting in the family room side of things, other than any touch ups (I hate painting at night but always seem to do it that way), I just need to hook up the stereo and HALF of the project is finished, here's what it looked like last night and a couple this morning:




























My wife decided to darken the center portion of the fireplace wall, I think it nicely calls attention to the fireplace without screaming.

Here are the jets mid painting:










I thought I took some shots of the newly black tank back, but I don't see any, I will snap some tonight when I pull the newspaper masking off. I also need to clean up the trim edges with a razor where the paint crept under the tape, tuoch up type work.

Then, it's on to finishing the door/room interior. I beleive I can start cycling this weekend. I need to sort out mounting the light as well.

Keep your fingers crossed.


----------



## inurocker

Everything is looking really nice. I'm kind of jealous. I don't have that kind of space anymore after the kids moved out we down sized to a smaller home left my big tank in the old house. It'll all come together soon then you will be looking for another project to get in to. Can't be as bad as Major Kong (Slim Pickens) riding the H-bomb in. I love that bit funny stuff.


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## CITADELGRAD87

Thanks, I appreciate it. It does seem to be home stretch at this point. Today I picked up the mounting system for the lights, I was going to try to make my own, but with the metric sizing, and the need for eye bolts, it was actually cheaper to just grab the company version. I can't wait to hang the lights, but I do need a way to make the height adjustible.

I am thinking about mounting the system to a 2x4, then have the 2x4 adjustible via a couple pulleys so I can raise the whole deal when I need to. Sort of pirating part of clekchao's system for my own evil purposes.


----------



## Steve C

With Thanksgiving & now Christmas stuff going on over the past few weeks I haven't had much time to check in on the site lately myself, but it looks like you've got quite a bit done since the last time I saw it a few weeks ago. Looking good.

Also the wife has a good eye for colors, I think the darker center section does a nice job of highlighting the fireplace without calling too much attention to it :thumb:


----------



## Bradyk

Any updates??? opcorn:


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

Thanks, Steve, Hi Brady, as a matter of fact, yes, I did work a bit this weekend. I reinstalled the newly gloss black jets and Durso, and then dumped about 85 lbs of Tahitian Black Moon sand, my fist not buff colored sand substrate.

After that, I was on a roll, I put the final finishing touches on the plumbing, specifically, I glued the threaded hose end connectors to the pump and the line, so everything is glued up and watertight now.

I also suspended the light fixture, it's a 60 inch Aquaticlife 4 bulb T5HO with moon LEDs, the freshwater one. It came with 2 6500 or so white bulbs, and a couple that glow blue, they do not have a number printed on them, just a finky name that I cannot recall, but they are the stock bulbs, and 4 pretty bright LEDs. The system has a single timer, you just set the time and it is pre pregrammed to cycle through the variations of white and blue on for high noon, blue is am and pm, and the LEDS come on at night. It's pretty cool, I can play with the program, but I am letting the factory program run for now. It's nice to still be able to see the fish even though the main lights are not on. Here's a married man's testimonial as to how cool this light is: my wife STILL has not asked how much it cost, but has complimented the look several times.

The Aquaticlife mounting system is pretty cool, I found that has a very functional locking mechanism, meaning that I can raise and lower the whole light, or just half of it, at will, very easy to work and it seems pretty sturdy and strong.

Then I had my wife help me from the dry front, distribute the moon sand. I did not rinse the first bag, but I did rinse the next 3, simply by sticking a hose into the bag and letting water run out for a couple seconds. The water was a bit cloudy for the first day, and is still not super clear, but it looks good to me for now.

I also hooked up the finnex 300w Titanium heater and controller, I checked teh water at 55 degrees about 5 last night when I filled it, now it's over 80 and climbing, not bad, I undersized the heater and was worried it would take forever to warm it up. Not so!

Then it was finally time to throw the switch and start the pump for real, nol more test run, I am nearly ready to cycle. SO I threw the switch, and was greeted with the unmistakable sound of water, LOTS of water, hitting the concrete floor if the fish room. Not a leak, a torrent. WHAT!>!>! So I turned it back off, nd much to my relief, there was no plumbing problem, there was simply operator error. I had left the 1" drain line valve open, so the 1" line was tossing 2400 GPH on my floor. I managed to smuggle 4 large garage towels INTO the fish room, but getting them out was out of the question, I had to get a trash bag to save the floor. Luckily, I was able to get the dirty wet mess out into the garage.

So it's been running for about 30 hours now, it is VERY quiet with the new mouse pad/sponge isolator, and the temp is climbing nicely.

The only thing I did not get done this weekend was get rocks, the local rock yard is closed on weekends, which seems goofy to me. I did do some more work on the hidden door, I am really happy with how that is coming out, but no pictures yet.

Here are the photos of the lighting and newly added sand

Here's a shot of the controller










Here's the FULL effect, 2 white and 2 blue bulbs on, high noon










Here's just the blue, still plenty bright, looks differnt to the nekkid eye,










Here's the moon lights



















Back shot from inside the fish room










Here's the heater controller,










Well, I am going to hold off cycling until I get some rocks, hopefully this week.

As Porky says, that's all (for now) Folks!

Thanks to everyone for following, weighing in, commenting, suggesting, brain storming, etc.


----------



## Steve C

> I had left the 1" drain line valve open, so the 1" line was tossing 2400 GPH on my floor.


   Oh boy! I beat that got your heart rate up in a hurry when you heard the splashing. Glad it was just a simple valve and nothing major.

It's looking really good. I've always been partial to white sand but that black sand does look great with the color of your BG. Real nice look.

I've had my build up on hold for the past couple weeks but looking at yours is making me get the itch to make time to do some more on mine done soon.


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## vann59

Nice job :thumb:

Are you going to add plants? Have you found rocks to match the BG?


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## CITADELGRAD87

I am going to add both java moss and anubias once I finish the cycle, I don't want to worry about them slowing the cycle or being burned by the ammonia.

I haven't found any rocks yet, the rock place was closed this weekend, but beleive it or not, I decided to go with a random colored background so that I would not have to match the rocks too carefully, I think that a large cross section of rocks will look like they belong, mostly roundish ones, though.


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## CITADELGRAD87

I ran out with the wife before work today to a local stone yard and grabbed 30 or so nice rocks, tried to match the consistency, shape, and random colors of the background.

I was thinking about taking a side trip to a local rocky area, but the stone yard had nice buckets with small, medium and large in a variety of sizes.

I snapped a couple pictures before I dunked them in bleach water buckets to get rid of any oil or unwanted hitchhikers



















How long should these fellows soak before I can let them air dry?


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## PfunMo

None of those are very porous as rocks go and having been around the lanscape yard they will not have any surviving snails or eggs so it won't take a long time. Any surface oils will react with the chlorine almost immediately . I would think a couple hours would be plenty if in a hurry. If not, overnight is always nice. Odds are good that they are safe as they are but after all the work you've put into the tank and setup, who wants to gamble?


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## CITADELGRAD87

Thanks. I am in zero hurry to rush this. I have held off on cycling, and actualy didn't even treat the water in the tank, it's been up for about 4 days, pump is quiet, temp is 87 for cycling, but I didn't want to start before the rocks are all in place.

Then, when the cycle is finished, I will add plants and fish.


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## inurocker

Should look nice with your background.


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## CITADELGRAD87

Thanks, guys.

This AM, I dragged my butt out on the porch, dumped the bleach water, rinsed both buckets twice with tap water, then put the rocks out on the porch to dry. They are pretty dense rocks, I sniffed a couple that were still wet and could not smell the bleach, but of course I will let them dry today while I am at work and smell them again tonight. it's kind of chilly for CA, 60s, so no blasting direct sunlight to bake the bleach off today.


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## Steve C

> it's kind of chilly for CA, 60s,


It got up to 45 today here in Michigan and I was about ready to go dig out some shorts :lol:

Those rocks look like they will match your BG perfectly.


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## CITADELGRAD87

Steve C said:


> it's kind of chilly for CA, 60s,
> 
> 
> 
> It got up to 45 today here in Michigan and I was about ready to go dig out some shorts :lol:
> 
> Those rocks look like they will match your BG perfectly.
Click to expand...

My mom's family was from the UP, outside Grayling. I almost qualified to say it's not cold to me, just cooler than normal.

My wife always teases me because I maintain that it does not GET cold here, and refuse to wear a jacket unless it is pouring rain.

In the local mountains, I relent and wear a flannel shirt. You should see how natives bundle up here when it's 50 outside.


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## Steve C

> outside Grayling.


Small world, I spend a ton of time in the Grayling area every spring/summer. I'm a HUGELY addicted fly fisherman and have a cabin on the Au Sable river and fish the Grayling/Mio area all the time. Beautiful part of the state :thumb:


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## CITADELGRAD87

Ah, the Au Sable, man, that is beautiful country. I haven't been up there in 20 years, but I miss it a lot.


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## CITADELGRAD87

So enough of the previews, on to the main event. Although I still have a tiny bit of drywall left to finish, I need to extend the step the full length of the tank, and finish the outside of the door, the tank is done. I got rocks from a local yard and piled them in.

I decided it was time to cycle this baby. Last night, 12/17, I tested water parameters. Ph is between 7.8 and 8. Always. Tested it anyway. Ammonia was between 0 and. 25ppm. Its yellow (api kit, only about 2 months old) with a hint of green. I tested the water straight from the tap and got the same result, so I tested my 50s water that I had just done a 25% water change, that appears 0.0.

Since I was just running tap water for water plumbing testing, I dosed the tank with a heavy amount of dechlor.

I cleaned the 50 yesterday, so I removed about a golf ball sized amount of the eheim sintered glass and put it in a media bag, and was able to sit it right in the middle of the bio balls on top. While I was at it, I changed the filter floss over the drip tray, because I plan to let that sit for 45 days minimum.

I dosed with 3 teaspoons of pure ammonia from Ace Hardware. Twenty minutes later we were sitting on 4.0 ppm.

I am also going to put an emperor filter pad in the sump, I need to change one but didn't want to mess with the emp on the same day I broke down the eheim.

So I think I am on my way. Anyone have any insight into the tap water ammonia? Seems strange.


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## PfunMo

I'm thinking that is a false reading due to chloramine in the supply?? I think that is something I have read about here. I'm pretty sure there is not an actual ammonia in your supply. Something about getting a false reading.


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## bluenosebully6

I've been up for an hour and a half reading this thread!!!! Awesome build!!!! U got my mind going a mile a minute now...lol somehow I think my girlfriend is gna wanna strangle me in the next week or so lol......can't wait to see everything done...those moonlights are incredible BTW....great job


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## CITADELGRAD87

Thanks, guys, for the first time, I am REALLY seeing how nice this turned out. I thought it would, but in a long, dusty project, there's always the thought that you are making compromises, or that it won't look the way it did in your mind, but I am super happy with the part that's finished. Now to just get the rest done while it cycles.

Yesterdays numbers: Ammonia, 4.0. No change in first 24h.


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## CITADELGRAD87

No new photos. Sorry, the lights are out and I am in bed typing this on my phone.

First things first, ammonia is 4 ppm, no change from initial dose and second day testing.

Today I made some more progress, I extended what was a step down to the concrete floor to become a full width shelf so I can easily reach the bottom of the tank on the extreme left side.

I also drywalled the back of the hidden door to protect the fragile and wooley sound board from damage. I installed magnet catches top and bottom, and the door stays shut and the panelling is flush using magnets alone, superquiet and I overlapped the paneling so there's no light leakage even without weather sealing, which would have complicated the overall fit and function of the door.

Tomorrow I will snap some pictures, and I hope to put up some trim and at least prime the panels. I am still playing with the reveal at the hinge side of the door, I had to brainstorm a way to get a single strip wide piece of panel out of the way so the door can move, but without an unsightly gap. I hope it works.

I also have some small drywall bits to hang, I will try to use up the remaining insulation and soundboard by putting it up at the fireplace wall, I hate to throw stuff away. I also need to add a melamine shelf to the right of the door for food and chemicals.

More later. Guys, I really want to thank you for the kind words, the encouragement, and the advice. A handful of friends have seen it and the reactions are amazing. It really looks nice in our house, I can't wait for fish!

More to come.


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## PfunMo

With a little bit of prodding we can get you to work yourself to death! Even to after bed time!

I think you will be justified in being very proud. Sounds like it looking great. :thumb: :thumb:


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## CITADELGRAD87

Day 4. Ammonia might be between 2 and 4 ppm, wife thinks its lighter, I think its stuck at 4.


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## CITADELGRAD87

Day 5, still 4.0 ppm. I am about ready to start wondering if the seeding is going to speed this up.


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## CITADELGRAD87

Double tap.


----------



## Steve C

Any pics with the rocks in there yet?


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

Steve C said:


> Any pics with the rocks in there yet?


No good ones, for some reason with the Christmas tree I can't get a good angle.

Here is is, it looks pretty amazing at night with the blue lights, if I do say so:




























Any thoughts on the amount/size? It looks pretty natual, I tried to both make what hiding speaces I could and avoud the fish condo look.


----------



## Steve C

> Any thoughts on the amount/size? It looks pretty natual, I tried to both make what hiding speaces I could and avoud the fish condo look.


I think that's a pretty good amount/size IMO. That should break up the tank enough so that most everybody has their own piece of real estate.


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## Cooder

Nice project and tank...

Pity your spoiling it with malawians though LOL, jks i bet its going to look almost as good as any other Tang tank. 

cant wait to see it stocked (with tangs, give in to your anger and turn to the darkside!) 

(oooh the potential this tank has)


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## PfunMo

Looks good to me. Right now the real rock and the backdrop are a bit "off" on color match but that will blend together as the tank gets some of the natural grung look. I've given up on trying to place each stone correctly. They all get moved around at some point. I had to stop when I began to see that "pruney" look up past my elbow!!


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## [email protected]

The setup looks good, for some reason some of the rocks look yellow and clash with the background. I would try to find some river rock that just has some gray in them. Your next option would to be to paint them to match the background. This is normally what we recommend when using real rock with backgrounds. The setup does look awesome by the way, lf you share the same Concerns that we do, we can always ship some pre-made paint to you if you ever want to make them a perfect match. Just a thought and good Job so far, I bet you can't wait to stock this tank!

Kyle


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

Thanks, guys. I appreciate it. Kyle, i see what you mean but in person, it looks closer and sort of random. I want to see if a couple weeks of mung, poop, and algae makes them look even closer.

This weekend was naturally slightly slowed by the festivities.

I also suffered my first catastrophic equipment failure, the 10G growout tank in the garage had a stuck heater that killed my calvus and a daffodil, my wife and my favorite fishes, by the way. The calvus was about 1.75 inches, I was just about to put him in the main tank. I am really saddened by that loss, he was getting big.

I replaced him with a teeny 3/4 inch black calvus that actually seems a lot bolder and hopefully will work out nicely. I replaced the daffodil with a socolofi pair, and picked p 6 multi punctatus for the new 100, they are cooling their jets in the 50.

The four pudmilla naire Ruti Island maniacs seem no worse for the wear. they were just hanging in the HOT water and eating fine, it was only when I saw the dead daffodil that I touched the water and realized how hot it was, then I found the calvus..., I had to emergency egress the survivors to the main 50G tank while I am waiting for the cycle to complete. I think I am starting to see the ammonia come off 4.0, I expect the sudden drop to zero any day. Just to make sure, I added a filter pad from the emperor on the 50 to the overflow box for some more bacteria action.

Here's the extended shelf to walk the back of the tank, intiially, this was just a step, but it was hard to see into the other end of the tank so I extended it.










I also cut some acrylic covers to stop the evaporation I am experienceing, here they are fit before I added the handles:









That's the durso sticking up.









This is the side closest to the secret door










Here's a bonus shot of my lithobates patiently waiting for his new digs to cycle









That's it for tonight, again I post from the rack before grabbing some Zs.


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

Ok, the fishless cycle is killing me. I started it Saturday, so 10 days ago today, with a dose to 4.0, maybe a touch more, but the initial dose did not go to 8, the next notch on my AFI kit. This was seeded with filter material from my eheim that has been in place for 5 years or so.

Today, I measured about lunch time (yes, formerly I only tested in the evenings, but I am now testing 2x day) and it is definately 2.0, far lighter than before and matching the 2.0.

If it does not drop to 0 within 24, it is not doing what I have read to expect, a slight decrease followed by a sudden drop to 0.0.

As above, I added a filter pad from the established emperor to the overflow box, right above the drip tray, this weekend to try to shake something loose.


----------



## cantrell00

It varies from tank to tank.. I would wait another 24 hrs before checking again & don't dose anymore ammonia.

I would do nothing basically.

Have you seen any nitrite spikes? When you do, they should come and go fairly quickly. Probably 3-5 days.

I am the most impatient person in the world so it gives me no pleasure at all to tell you that patience is the key here. It sucks for sure but is the truth nonetheless.


----------



## Steve C

> Here's a bonus shot of my lithobates


Ya need to post a couple better pics man... I love lithobates. They are beautiful!! Would love to see a couple closer pics of him.


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

I will work on him, he's really my most beautiful fish.

Water test results as of today, TEN days in with seeding from an established filter, ammonia is between .5 and 1 ppm. I have done a single dose of ammonia, on day one. I have niether changed water nor added any ammonia since then, I have just been testing the water.

Nitrite, first time I have tested for it, is in the two to five ppm range, man, sometimes these dang charts are tough to read.

Shouldn't the ammonia have dropped to zero, or at least be zero tomorrow, based on the decline? The article mentioned a steep decline, but It's not as steep as I thought it would be.


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

Steve C said:


> Here's a bonus shot of my lithobates
> 
> 
> 
> Ya need to post a couple better pics man... I love lithobates. They are beautiful!! Would love to see a couple closer pics of him.
Click to expand...

Phone Camera=bad pictures, I will get out the camera whenever I get 10 minutes of free time, but here you go:


















































He's really amazing to me. I got him on a whim, he was a trade in and looked healthy, but it took him a couple weeks to settle in at the new 50. I can't wait ot give him the room of the 100.

Wow, nothing like a close up to tell me I need to clean some algae, huh?


----------



## cantrell00

CITADELGRAD87 said:


> I will work on him, he's really my most beautiful fish.
> 
> Water test results as of today, TEN days in with seeding from an established filter, ammonia is between .5 and 1 ppm. I have done a single dose of ammonia, on day one. I have niether changed water nor added any ammonia since then, I have just been testing the water.
> 
> Nitrite, first time I have tested for it, is in the two to five ppm range, man, sometimes these dang charts are tough to read.
> 
> Shouldn't the ammonia have dropped to zero, or at least be zero tomorrow, based on the decline? The article mentioned a steep decline, but It's not as steep as I thought it would be.


Was the Nitrite test last night? 2-5 PPM is a pretty big gap. 2 PPM = no issue. 5 PPM can possibly set the ammonia nitrifiers back.

I would check both again tonight and relay the results & we can go from there. I would continue to do nothing but test for the time being..


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

cantrell00 said:


> Was the Nitrite test last night? 2-5 PPM is a pretty big gap. 2 PPM = no issue. 5 PPM can possibly set the ammonia nitrifiers back.
> 
> I would check both again tonight and relay the results & we can go from there. I would continue to do nothing but test for the time being..


Yes, 8:00 last night, nitrate tube was purple, definately at least 2, not as dark as 5. The ammonia was very low but not zero.

I will update tonight.


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## cantrell00

CITADELGRAD87 said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Was the Nitrite test last night? 2-5 PPM is a pretty big gap. 2 PPM = no issue. 5 PPM can possibly set the ammonia nitrifiers back.
> 
> I would check both again tonight and relay the results & we can go from there. I would continue to do nothing but test for the time being..
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, 8:00 last night, nitrate tube was purple, definately at least 2, not as dark as 5. The ammonia was very low but not zero.
> 
> I will update tonight.
Click to expand...

Cool deal... I actually think you are getting close...


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## Dominateprimate

This awesome background you have makes it look like your fish are living in the depths of Atlantis! Great looking setup so far. can't wait to see it completed!


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## CITADELGRAD87

Thanks, Dominateprimate, I appreciate it!

Tonight, I think we are at either 0.0 or possibly a light .25 ammonia, there might be a tinge of green to the yellow.

nitrite appears 2.0.

WHat now? I will re read the article and check back.


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## cantrell00

Give it another day to see if the Nitrite trails off...

I would wait for it to disappear, along with the ammonia - measure nitrates & then add ammonia again..

I would not add as much this time though.. 1.0 would be fine. After that - give it another 24 hours and if no amm or nitrite, you are good.

You may have to do a series of 15-20% water changes to get the nitrate down prior to adding fish. I would avoid doing a single, large water change for the first month. You should be fine after that.

I would be surprised if the nitrites weren't gone before the end of the weekend..


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## CITADELGRAD87

The article mentions adding ammonia and doing 30% water changes over a couple days, I have not changed any amount of water since this started. (I did add a couple gallons when evaporation had the sump sucking air.)

Your advice does not mention water changes waiting for the nitrite to drop, I just want to make sure I am not missing something.


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## cantrell00

IME, water changes have not been necessary.

I have done them after the cycle is completed to reduce nitrates, & just before adding fish.

The only time I would recommend doing water changes prior to cycle completion is in the event that you have a serious run up of nitrites in excess of 5 PPM..

That is why I was initially concerned when you mentioned the possibility of really high nitrites..


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## CITADELGRAD87

Cool thank you, I know Tim has mentioned he doesn't see a difference with or without the water changes. Lots of variables and options, last time I cycled it was with the precursor to Dr Tim's, bio spira I think it was called, it was unstable and touch and go, this is my first fishless cycle and I don't want to rush it, well, I am having trouble NOT rushing it but am making myself be certain of every step. I am realy looking forward to some fish in there, but will wait as long as it takes.

THanks very much.


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## cantrell00

There are several different ways/varieties to completing these fishless cycles. i don't think there really is a right/wrong answer because each tank and each cycle are so specific to the tank itself. Hard to say. I just refer back to my own first hand experiences.

Honestly though - it is hard to screw one up by doing nothing though.

You are welcome.

I think you should see smooth sailing by the end of the weekend - early next week.


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## prov356

Water changes can, theoretically, reduce cycle time a bit by not overwhelming the bacteria attempting to get established, but I cycled dozens of tanks just fine without doing them before that suggestion was ever made to me. You'll see nitrite go off chart. You can do water changes to reduce, just be forewarned, keep them low. I've seen large water changes cause setbacks to the nitrite converters, so it's possible to shoot yourself in the foot. Personally, I seed tanks with a small bit of biomedia from another tank (you don't need much and best to be free of mulm) and cycle them in 7-10 days without bothering with water changes. I use water changes if I've got fish on the way and need to quickly finish things out, although I don't recommend putting yourself in that position. Do what I say, not as I do.


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## CITADELGRAD87

prov356 said:


> Water changes can, theoretically, reduce cycle time a bit by not overwhelming the bacteria attempting to get established, but I cycled dozens of tanks just fine without doing them before that suggestion was ever made to me. You'll see nitrite go off chart. You can do water changes to reduce, just be forewarned, keep them low. I've seen large water changes cause setbacks to the nitrite converters, so it's possible to shoot yourself in the foot. Personally, I seed tanks with a small bit of biomedia from another tank (you don't need much and best to be free of mulm) and cycle them in 7-10 days without bothering with water changes. I use water changes if I've got fish on the way and need to quickly finish things out, although I don't recommend putting yourself in that position. Do what I say, not as I do.


That's EXACTLY what I have done, I am 10 days in, seeded with some bio media, actually, i re seeded when I broke down that 10g and figured it could not hurt. I am anticipating 0.0 ammonia today, with nitrites to follow. Funny how every article says "you will think the process stalled" and almost every concern I see about fishless cycling is "I think I am stalled..."

Thanks for the input, I will not do a water change until nitrites drop to 0.0, and I will do partials to get nitrates down.


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## CITADELGRAD87

I post this in the firm beleif that I am not the first person to jump the gun in this fashion.

Today, my best LFS is having it's 1/3 off sale, better prices but mostly more and better fish.

I got a mating pair of Black Calvus, a blue peacock, and a couple haps, a tangerine tiger and a Taiwan reef, IIRC.

So now I am REALLY waiting for the cycle to complete, because the 50 looks pretty crowded, and I am planning on daily water changes in the 50 until the cycle is completed.

Photos





































I am rapidly approaching completion of the first part of the cycle, so far I added amonia once, seeded with established media and tested the water, NOTHING else.

Almost 13 days in, it's at .25 or 0.0 on ammonia, about 2.0 nitrite.

I have NOT changed water or added ammonia.

My first fishless cycle, I am at a crossroads.
Any tips other than cool my jets?


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## CITADELGRAD87

I am DEFINATELY at 0.0 ammonia, Nitrate is dropping, I think it's .5, that seems really quick.

At this point, should I do anything, or wait for nitrite to bottom out to 0.0, then dose to 1 ppm? Nothing along the lines of a water change until then?

Just confirming.


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## newforestrob

dose with ammonia,no more than 2 ppm,test for ammonia 24 hrs later
so if I understand you dosed the tank once 14 days ago,with some established media?


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## CITADELGRAD87

Correct. Seeded the bio balls with established media, dosed a singel time Saturday, two weeks ago today.

No water changes, no re dosing for the entire time so far.

I hung an established Emperor filter pad in the overflow box, didn't touch the new filter, I just put a pad in the drain box of the tank, at about 10-12 days just because I had changed the pad in my other tank.

At 10-12 days, ammonia dropped rapidly to very low levels, .5-.25, then hung for two days. At that time, I tested nitrites for the first time, they were between 2 and 5.

Now, last night, 13 days in, ammonia definately zero, nitrites at about .5, the API kits are sometimes hard to distinguish.


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## newforestrob

thats not common,in my experiences, for ammonia to take that long to be converted,especially with established media,there maybe a couple reasons,low temps.,or low ph/kh,even high temps with lack of oxygen
I would dose the tank to no more than 2 ppm ammonia,wait 24 hrs,and verify that ammonia is being converted


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## CITADELGRAD87

I dosed to between 1 and 2 ppm this morning.

Based on what it took to get to 1-2 ppm, I believe my initial dose was high, above 4.0 ppm. I cut the re dose by more than 1/2, and it is still between 1 and 2. I wonder if the intial dose beign too high stalled/slowed it?

Just before dosing, Nitrites were .5. They were between 2 and 5 two days ago.

I will check again in the am.


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## cantrell00

Certainly sounds like everything is processing through...


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

24H after dosing to between 1 ande 2 ppm, Nitrites are back where they were before I does, .5.

Seems pretty close.


----------



## newforestrob

did ammonia go to zero?


----------



## cantrell00

Where you are right now is my issue with fishless cycling...

If you are "cycling" with fish, they are releasing ammonia gradually and not in an instantaneous 1-2 PPM dump (pardon the pun) to the biological system.

That fact that it happens gradually favors the colonization of the bacteria more so than the latter, IMO.

Just speculation on my part - no evidence, scientific study etc, and I could be completely wrong.

My bet is that you are close enough now that once you change some water and get the Amm & Nitrite values to zero - you could add SOME fish. Start with a small bio load and gradually build it up over the next 7-10 days while monitoring the parameters every 24 hrs and adjusting as necessary. All JMO though..


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

newforestrob said:


> did ammonia go to zero?


I did not test, it was at zero yesterday before I dosed.

After your question, I tested, it's at .5 ppm.

API test kit. I get a shadow of a hint of ammonia from tap water, thinking it's chloramines. This result is darker than that, but no darker than .5 ppm. This tank was most definatley 0.0 yesterday at 8 am, and I have added no water, just ammonia to 1-2 ppm.


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## newforestrob

the issue I see is that 2 ppm ammonia should have been completely consumed in 24 hrs at this stage,I would be tempted not to add any ammonia until it reads zero,its possible if you tested later today it will be zero


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## CITADELGRAD87

I do not plan to dose until at least tomorrow. I will test ammonia tonight. Should I wait for both to zero, or dose whenever ammonia reaches zero, or something else?


----------



## newforestrob

I would dose when ammonia reaches zero,and then wait 24 hrs before testing,if its zero I would dose every 2-3 days,only testing for nitrites,once nitrites are zero,test for nitrates,you will probably find they are high,I like to do small water changes(no more than 25%) on the off days of adding ammonia during the nitrite stage


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## CITADELGRAD87

I checked the PH just to rule it out, we are over 7.6.


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## newforestrob

I would agree it took so long for ammonia to go to zero because of the initial high dose


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

Today's results, I dosed Saturday with between 1-2 ppm after ammonia zeroed, so 48 hours after a re dose:

Anmonia 0.0

Nitrite .5

Last night I retested PH, we are at 7.6, very close to where we started.

Nitrite has never read 0.0. It was dropping, and at .5, right before the re dose, so with a .5 nitrite, I dosed, then 2 days later nitrite is .5 again.


----------



## newforestrob

dose with ammonia now and then dose every two days,
test for nitrites 24 hrs after each dose


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## cantrell00

I would not exceed 1.0PPM on the ammonia dose though..


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

I picked up a KH kit on the way home, tap and aquarium water is identical, 89.5, 5 drops of the API kit solution.

I checked the nitrite, it's at .25, the lowest reading so far, 36 hours after the first re dose.

To re dose tonight, I dropped the ammonia back a bit, and tested 20 minutes after dosing confirming 1.0 ppm of ammonia as of 6 tonight.


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## CITADELGRAD87

24 hours after re dose to 1.0 ppm

Results, discouraging, ammonia, .5, maybe a shade under, nitrite, .5

Kh 107.4. All readings checked twice. Same results each time. Grrr.


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## cantrell00

Stay the course.. You have to be close...


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## CITADELGRAD87

Normally I'm a patient guy, see this thread for an example, but this is killing me. I am doing water changes in the 50 every 2 days, nitrates are fine with those, but the new fish are pretty big and I feel bad that they aren't in the new home.

It doesn't help that every single person who looks at the in wall says, "What, no fish yet?"


----------



## Agridion

CITADELGRAD87 said:


> Normally I'm a patient guy, see this thread for an example, but this is killing me. I am doing water changes in the 50 every 2 days, nitrates are fine with those, but the new fish are pretty big and I feel bad that they aren't in the new home.
> 
> It doesn't help that every single person who looks at the in wall says, "What, no fish yet?"


 :lol: :lol: I went through the same thing that you are going through. Everyone was giving me a hard time because I had it set up with water in it for about a month before I put fish in. It took a while for the Ammonia and Nitrites to drop to zero. I didn't do a water change until the nitrites dropped to zero and dosed the Ammonia up to 3-5 PPM daily.


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## CITADELGRAD87

Ok, tonight, two days after a 1.0 ppm dose, both ammonia and nitrates are at 0.0

I re dosed tonight, stay tuned folks.


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## newforestrob

sounds promising :thumb:


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## Pizzle

I put a blanket over the tank when I am doing a fishless cycle. The main reason is that the algae require light while the bacteria that we want to nurture does not need light. This way the bacteria does not need to compete with algae. The added benefit is that I don't have to look at an empty tank and get all those questions about why there are no fish in it.


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## CITADELGRAD87

Tonight, and I say this with the utmost sincerity, YIPPEEE.

After three weeks of cycling, and dialing back the doses each time, last night I measured approximately 1 ppm 20 minutes after dosing, and tonight, 0.0 ammonia and 0.0 nitrite.

ETA--redose tomorrow, or maybe start small water changes to get the nitrates down in the 20 range so I can add some....fish?!?!?! :dancing: :fish: :thumb: :dancing: :fish: :dancing: :fish:


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## dsouthworth

Finally! Here is where the fun begins!

I may have missed the post, but what happened with the TV project? :?


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## newforestrob

congrats,it has typically taken me around three weeks aswell when seeding with established media-the few times that I have done it :lol:


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## CITADELGRAD87

dsouthworth said:


> Finally! Here is where the fun begins!
> 
> I may have missed the post, but what happened with the TV project? :?


It's completed, I will take some more pictures when I drop fish, I cannot wait for tomorrow. :fish: :fish: :fish:

The TV is awesome to me, I got it up off the floor and it's semi recessed into the wall. Surround sound is all hooked up, and we started watching movies again. :thumb:


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## CITADELGRAD87

OK, today was a GIGANTIC day in this project, today we finally added fish. We have been enjoying them all evening, and I figured it was time to report my progress to everyone who has been following along this long project.

Last night, I did a 20% water change, this a.m. I did a 20% water change, and at least as far as my API kit could tell me, the water parameters in the 50 were identical to the 100 water parameters, Ammonia, nitrite at 0.0, nitrates at 20ppm, temp 78.

First things first, dsouthworth remembered that there was also a TV aspect to this project, so here is the TV totally completed, surround sound hooked up:










HereÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s the other half of that wall, after the plants were put in place, they are java ferns and annubias










Here is a close up of the totally cycled and plant prepped tank, all we need is some fish!










Then I broke down the rock piles in the 50 and started netting the new tenants, hereÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s a shot of the big boys in the waiting room










Baby pool










Yes, that is a blizzard of poo, I told them it would be a lengthy trip, but nobody ever goes before they leave home.

Cover me, I am GOING IN!!!










Here are some photos my wonderful wife took while I was dropping the new tenants in from the back, the start of the parade, first two in:










Official finish was Tangerine Tiger 1, lithobates a close second

Adult swim! Here is 15 seconds of quiet bliss before the kids are released










Here come the kids!!!










And with that, the fish part is done. My sister in law shot video on her iphone of the whole fish drop, if anyone can tell me how to put that on youtube I will gladly do that. It gets dark at about 5, and the room is pretty dark, so I didn't get any photos of the tank with the fish after they got comfortable, so it looks empty.










The night lights were cool before the fish, but now itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s amazing



















As of 10pm local, 5 hours after dropping the fish, ammonia is 0.0, nitrites 0.0, nitrates 20 ppm. I didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t really expect it to climb at all in 5 hours, but I will be monitoring these parameters every 12hours for the forseeable future, we will see about water changes. I withheld feeding yesterday, today and will again tomorrow, then I will lightly feed until I am secure.

My brother in law and sister in law were over for the fish move, they have been following along, we all sat afterwards and just stared at them, getting to know them as they develop personalities, playing in the current from the jets, the tank is very peaceful right now, I did have to net out the yellow peacock, he was a typhoon of agression against every fish he laid eyes on except the catfish, so I threw him back in the 50 and I will look at a different yellow peacock, open to suggestions on that. My wife was very pleased with the final product, she thought the newest fish, the lithobates, Taiwan Reef and Tangerine Tiger were too big, but she has revised her position.

I still need to play with the secret door closing mechanism, and add some shelves, switchplate covers, a bit of drywall, and I am going to use up the rest of the soundboard covering whatever I can reach inside the room. I also need to pain the secret door, or it isnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t much of a secret.

I will post some more on this thread until I call it totally finished, but I think today was my favorite part by far. A thousand thanks to everyone who has helped me on this thread, on my many other separate threads, and in Pms, Tim, Cantrell, BradyK, the guys at Fishtankdesigns 3d who made that wonderful background that the fish are so crazy about, SteveC, everyone, I am not omitting anyone, I just cant remember everyoneÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s names.


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## Steve C

That looks excellent man you have some beautiful fish in there 8)

I know it was a ton of work but I bet now it seems all worth it sitting there watching them in their new home.

Job well done for sure :thumb: :thumb:


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## cantrell00

You are welcome. It looks great. Glad that I could assist.


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## inurocker

Looks outstanding. The payoff for all your hard work, well done. :thumb:


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## CITADELGRAD87

Thanks, I really appreciate it.

I already have a modification to report, the lights seemed to be too far back, and larger fish towards the front were too dark. I moved the mounting points and shifted the entire fixture toward the front of the tank abuot 6 inches, result, WOW, I am glad I bought that light.

Water parameters as of this am, Ammonia 0.0, nitrites 0.0, nitrates between 20 and 30, I will do a partial water change today, probably 20%.


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## The King Crabb

Great work! =D> It turned out amazing :thumb:


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## CITADELGRAD87

Thanks, King, glad to see you back in the saddle.

24H after dropping fish, ammonia and nitrites holding at zero, 20% water change this am, nitrates around 20ppm.


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## quentin8

Congrats... Thanks for keeping us updated from start to finish. Its been great. Keep us posted =D> =D> =D>


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## CITADELGRAD87

Thanks, Quentin, I have started to show it off to friends, we are really really happy with it.

Water is 0.0, 0.0, at or under 20 ppm.

My fingers are crossed. I was a little worried during this fishless cycle, as Tim's article mentions a time frame of 7-10 days for a seeded bio filter, and as you saw we were were over double that.

There may have been an initially high dose, as when I played with my redosing, three VERY different amounts all read at right around 1ppm, ranging from 1 1/4 teaspoons to 1/2 teaspoon. I wonder if the main use of our kits is to verify 0.0, and notbody ever really cares about accuracy beyond that benchmark, except when performing a fishless cycle? No way that those 3 doses should have read 1.0.

The advantage I saw in using seed material is clearly the part that most cycles stall, instead of waiting for nitrite bacteria to grow when the ammonia processing guys provide enough food, there was already a decent colony feeding right behind the ammonia processors from day one. I read that the nitrite part tends to be the longest, I did not see that in my cycle.


----------



## cantrell00

> There may have been an initially high dose, as when I played with my redosing, three VERY different amounts all read at right around 1ppm, ranging from 1 1/4 teaspoons to 1/2 teaspoon. I wonder if the main use of our kits is to verify 0.0, and notbody ever really cares about accuracy beyond that benchmark, except when performing a fishless cycle? No way that those 3 doses should have read 1.0.


I have thought this myself when I was dosing a tank with ammonia. What I added never seemed consisent relative to prior doses and measurements either.

I would still prefer cycling with actual fish if it weren't for the damage to the fish.

I think it is a more effective approach to properly cycle a tank because it allows ammonia to be released gradually and not in large, single drops. That is the way it occurs in nature.


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

What would you think about staggering timed doses to gradually bump it up? Say, figure out what will give 1 ppm, divide it by 2 or 4, and space out the dosing? That would be a lot more time consuming, though. One problem for me was figuring out some time, every day, to mess with it. I never have problems finding time for maintenance, but 10 minutes at the same time every day is kind of tough to count on for a couple weeks.

I think a big problem with streamling it is that I won't have to do it again for quite some time, so there's little incentive to do it 4 different ways to try to improve it. So I am glad I documented this so anyone looking back can see what I did and if I went wrong.

I am pretty sure the above 0.0 ammonia readings were way off.

Here are my specific ammonia amounts, all ammonia was Ace store brand without surfectant.

Initially, using the article calcualtions, I dosed with 3 tsp, figuring right about 140-150G total volume, actual volume is probably right at 140 or a shade less, but MORE is always better, right? I was shooting for the article range of 1-4 ppm. The first test sure looked like 4.0 to me. It certainly was not the next color above 4.0.

Second dose was 1 1/4 tsp, figuring that I was shooting for 1-2ppm, and just under half of what gave me 4 would do that, thinking I might have to add that extra 1/4 tsp if it was light, but it tested 1.0.

Then, when I did my third dose, after it was taking 2 days to comvert, I used 1/2 tsp, again, UNDER half the previous dose, and it showed 1.0 again.

Unless my understanding of dilution and volume is off, and it may be, those tests should have shown different amounts.


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

Not to bump my own thread, but I have found that the background and the sides being built into the wall seems to have given my fish new confidence, they are usually all the way across the room from where we sit, so they just laze around and exhibit what seems to be pretty normal behaviour. Not that I am an expert. They can only be approaced from one side, and seem to be comfortable that way.


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## CITADELGRAD87

Last night I made some additional progress, I added a nice 5" shelf above the light fixture to hold food, test kit, dry goods, and started on the shelves to hold chemicals.

First up, in the use every bit of material if possible, I found a 4 foot piece of the stand plywood that I was able to put between the light fixture mounting wires:










This shelf was kind of an afterthought, but it's perfect for food and my test kit. Dry, light stuff.

Then, there was some melamine left over from the TV area, so I am making a couple heavier shelves to cover the top of the adjacent fireplace, this is from inside the room:










This two shelf deal will be framed with 2 x 4s and much stronger, so I can put my jugs of chemicals there and not worry about discoloring the surface too much.

Phone camera pictures, so they are not great, and it's tough to get a good angle. I also ditched the former magnet catches on the hidden door in favor of a much more secure and sturdy rolling catch that uses a spring loaded roller on the door and a bump on the door frame. Now it's really solid feeling. A sharp press on the right spot, and it opens enough to grab the edge and pull it open.

Lastly, a slight scare, maybe. Last night, about 10, I performed my stardard, every 12 hour tests for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.

Nitrite was 0.0, nitrate was about 20 ppm, but the ammonia looked like it had a ghost of green in it. It's an API kit, so it's supposed to be YELLOW, and only yellow, for 0.0, and increasing amounts of green in the yellow to indicate .25, .5, and 1.0, etc. It goes all the way to like a British Racing green, but the first few gradations are tough for me to see. Only yellow seems pretty clear to me.

My wife said it was yellow to her, but I detected a hint of green, not .25 to be sure, but not the bright yellow I expected.

So I showed my wife a water change, it takes about an hour now that I have it dialed, the time is used as follows.

Turning off pump at switched outlet, closing main return line, opening drain line in wall, moving 1" line into the T in the drain, opening 1" line, and turning the switched outlet back on: 20 seconds. Emptying sump, 30 seconds. Dosing with dechlor and refilling sump with fresh cold only water: 2 minutes. Heating water before it is ready to go into main tank: 58 minutes. Literally, it takes forever to get 30 gallons or so of 58 degree water up to 75-77, even though I am using an extra heater during water changes. It's not really a big deal, it's just that by now, it was midnight and I was really wanting to go to bed. Winter water changes are probably 1.5 hour deals, and I always have something else to do around the house while I wait, just not at midnight. Summer will be much faster.

But for winter, I am open to suggestions. I was going to try to add a pitcher of hot tap water, but the sump is so close to the stand shelf that I can't get at it. Maybe a larger heater to use only during water changes, like a 300 or bigger model? I unplug it when I am not changing water, so it can't be too big.

Anyway, this am, I re tested the ammonia and it is clearly 0.0.

Is that the correct course for a suspected "spike" of under .25? Water change and monitor? My wife was flabbergasted that I have been testing the water for 3+ weeks and didn't have a plan if we found ammonia after fish were added ( as my plan was not to find ammonia), so I want to make sure the plan is correct.


----------



## Steve C

I like the add ons. I can't help with the ammonia because I haven't started cycling my tank yet so I don't want to act like I know something I don't know about. But if I could make one small suggestion about the first shelf directly over the tank/light...

It might be a good ideas to consider adding some sort of small 'lip" on that shelf, maybe even just a 1" tall trim piece to it. Just to keep anything from getting bumped off the shelf and falling directly onto the light or top of the tank maybe. Just a thought.


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## CITADELGRAD87

Hi Steve, believe it or not, I planned to add a piece of quarter round or thin trim as a wrap around to do just that, but I forgot to mention it in my sleep deprived state. Thanks for the heads up, though, because I probably never would have remembered. :thumb:


----------



## CITADELGRAD87

As of this am, other than the single possible spike to under .25 ammonia, all ammonia and nitrite readings at 12 hour intervals since Saturday have been 0.0.

Nitrates are rising but still under 40.

Starting to see some algae, the background is really looking good, the real rocks blend better but I am going to dial back the lights tonight, the factory settings are way too long.

I am thinking "sunrise" about 5 pm, "noon" about 6:30-8, sunset from 8-10, then moonlight for a couple hours.

That will give us 5 hours of white light, and only 1.5 hours of the daylight bulbs. Anyone have any thoughts as to how this will affect the java and anubias?









































































Sorry, phone pictures, the starburst is the shutters letting some light in, some are blurry but you get the picture.


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## cantrell00

> Anyone have any thoughts as to how this will affect the java and anubias?


No concerns there.. Those plants would grow in the Sahara..

Are there some Vic's in there?


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## CITADELGRAD87

cantrell00 said:


> Are there some Vic's in there?


You got me there. Four Pundamilia nyererei (Ruti Island) that I got locally as fry. I wasn't sure the sex when I got them, but it turned out to be 2 and 2. The males are so wicked colorful, my wife asked me to put them in with the others. They hang together like a little school. I was going to put them in the 50 when I moved the rest out into the 100, I had plans for a purist haps and peacocks tank, but an emergency from a stuck heater in their grow out tank on Christmas day made me turn my 50 into a melting pot, and despite my concerns, it worked out peacefully. My wife liked them so much, I sort of got over ruled.

There are aloso a couple tangs, including a pair of Black Calvus and a smaller calvus.


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## Steve C

I can see the hint of algae just starting, it looks good :thumb:

The only problem I have with your tank is every time I look at yours I question my plan of using white sand on my build :lol: Seriously though, I was never a big fan of black substrate but every time I look at yours it looks better and better to me. I think I'm gonna have a dilemma on my hands when its time to buy my sand :?


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## cantrell00

CITADELGRAD87 said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are there some Vic's in there?
> 
> 
> 
> You got me there. Four Pundamilia nyererei (Ruti Island) that I got locally as fry. I wasn't sure the sex when I got them, but it turned out to be 2 and 2. The males are so wicked colorful, my wife asked me to put them in with the others. They hang together like a little school. I was going to put them in the 50 when I moved the rest out into the 100, I had plans for a purist haps and peacocks tank, but an emergency from a stuck heater in their grow out tank on Christmas day made me turn my 50 into a melting pot, and despite my concerns, it worked out peacefully. My wife liked them so much, I sort of got over ruled.
> 
> There are aloso a couple tangs, including a pair of Black Calvus and a smaller calvus.
Click to expand...

The Pundamilia are Victorian so yes, you do. I thought that was what those were...


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## CITADELGRAD87

Everyone is settling in, I have been doing about 25% water changes every Weds and Every Sat, water parameters seem ideal based on what I am able to test, 0.0 ammonia, 0.0 nitrites, 20-40 nitrates, never over 40. Never really under 20, though.

The sump has been flawless so far, Usand Jets working well, temp is constant at 78-79 degrees.


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## CITADELGRAD87

Zombie thread, back from the dead.

I was unhappy with the single outlet for the water changes, that had me using a long piece of 1 inch on a side line of the return both to send water to the drain, and to circulate water by bleeding a bit off the USandJ system on the return.

I decided to run a single dedicated run to the drain, and a separate dedicated run to the sump, valving between then depending on what I was doing at the time.

I hacked off the whole 1" assembly at the 1" vavle, but as much as I tried, I could not figure how to run the two separate 1 inch lines without valving each one. At least this way I can drain the drain line so water is not sitting in it between water changes.

ANOTHER THING!!!! The tile sponge I used as a vibration dampener totaly disintegrated after a 10 week immerson, it was literally the consistency of wet toilet paper, it was just chunks floating around in the sump, gross. SORRY to anyone who followed my lead there, I replaced it was some artificial sponges from the dollar store, they are just foam sponges.

Here are the photos:

Old setup:









Here's the drain line back in the tank for circulation:









New and improved:

New mainfold










The drain run










I put an extender on the return end to keep the returned water from going right back into the pump










I also FINALLY cleaned out that disgusting intake floss, it was 8 weeks after cycle was complete and probably 4 months since I installed it, super nasty, I will spare the pictures on that one.

Thanks everyone, I think it's done at this point. I will snap some pictures of the new 3/8 bulletproof tops that I am almost finished with. Bulletproof as in literally.


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## Agridion

Looks good. I bet you can drain your tank rather quickly with that PVC piping.

I like how much filter floss you have, in my setup I only have 1/4th of the floss that you have so I have to rinse it out every day. Even though it only takes 3 minutes to do it is still rather annoying.

Are you getting any algae growth? I've found that with the amount of light (given that I do allow direct sunlight to hit it for a few hours each day) that I am getting even with a tank full of plants I have a significant amount of algae that needs to be cleaned once a week, pulled from the background and scrapped off the glass. I would be intereseted to hear how your's is doing.


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## CITADELGRAD87

Yes, nothing outrageous, but the background now matches the real rocks. Both brown and green algae. I have cut the lights to about 4-5 hours a day for the past month or so. There are about 6 plants in there, all seem to be doing well, some really shooting out rhyzomes/roots.

I clean the front glass once a week, it gets a couple spots, nothing really bad, and I cleaned the side glass once about a week ago, that's the first clean since the cycle.


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## PfunMo

On the grout sponge issue, I had the same at one point. It seemed just go to a jelly that I had to use a scoop to remove. It was so soft, I could not pick it up by hand. I had been using a lot of salt in that tank as it was brackish and I thought that might have gotten to the sponge. Maybe not.

I'm currently looking at whether I want to use filter floss in the future. I am taking a bunch of small tanks and small filters apart and finding a problem when used with filter floss. I have a lifetime bag full but It is giving me soemthing to think about. There always seems to be a few strands that come loose and float around. They finally wind up wrapped around the impeller shafts on filters. This seems like a good way to get sand bits trapped on the shaft and ruin impellers. I'm thinking over whether there is good value in using it if it costs me impellers.


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## CITADELGRAD87

PfunMo said:


> On the grout sponge issue, I had the same at one point. It seemed just go to a jelly that I had to use a scoop to remove. It was so soft, I could not pick it up by hand. I had been using a lot of salt in that tank as it was brackish and I thought that might have gotten to the sponge. Maybe not.


That's exactly what happened to me, it went to pieces, I started seeing nasties coming in the UsandJets whenever I reopened the main valve, I thought it was just gunk form not cleaning the filter floss for 2 months. Then when I did this renovaton of plumbing, it became harder to get at the pump, so I wanted to check it all out, and I found large pieces swirling around the sump. I used a net to grab them. When I got the sponge out, all that was left was the scrubbie part, the rest was just gone.


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## dsouthworth

I think I should throw this in. I used 1/8" styrofoam and it worked perfectly. The weight from the pump is enough to keep it submerged. It's only been used for a month. But works great.


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## CITADELGRAD87

I tried styrofoam but could not get the hum to go away until I swtched to softer stuff, right now I guess I should mention that it's sitting on a cheap mouse pad wrapped around 2 synthetic foam blocks the size of kitchen sink sponges.


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## Agridion

CITADELGRAD87 said:


> I tried styrofoam but could not get the hum to go away until I swtched to softer stuff, right now I guess I should mention that it's sitting on a cheap mouse pad wrapped around 2 synthetic foam blocks the size of kitchen sink sponges.


I have mine on a thin slice of poret foam and that works perfectly.


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## CITADELGRAD87

It's been right at 5 months since I completed cycle on this. In that time I have lost 2 fish.

So far I have not vacuumed the gravel, and it looks clean. Fish appear to be well adjusted, I think the fact that they are surrounded on 3 sides by safety, and the spectators are usually across the room, keeps them out in the open rather than hiding.

I replace the filter floss over the drip tray about once a month, at about 2 weeks I ususally toss another 1/4 panel floss on top to catch more stuff.

The plants are still hanging in there, some seem fine, some are getting munched. I will get some new ones next time I am at the plant heavy LFS.

I dialed the lights WAY back, they now come on from 5:30pm to 10pm, then 2 hours of LED moonlight. The background has taken on a dark brown color. Not totally uniform, but not a variety like in the dry photos.

Water changes are easy, and with the warmer weather, the water heats up in the sump in about 1 hour, I just need to do it before bedtime. Current schedule is about a 35 gallon change every Saturday and Weds.

We are verry happy we did this, it is also very popular with our friends. Sometimes when I am home late from work and trying to unwind to sleep, I just sit on the couch and no longer even turn the boob tube on, I just watch the fish.

The ONLY thing I would change is a hot water line, and a bigger tank.


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## vann59

Glad to hear things are going well. It seems to me that plants are a lot more work to care for than fish. It occurred to me that perhaps faux backgrounds maybe should be made to look like they have some green algae on them, since it would be the natural look for them to have anyway, and they would tend to have the more natural look even when cleaned or dirty. I personally prefer green over brown any day.

You're not missing anything by not watching TV as much. A nice tank is good therapy and better than any sleeping pill.

Update us with some current pics!

(how is it we seem to be on this thread lately on the 27th of any month?)


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## JAyliffe

The tank looks magnificent! I love having mine in my study wall too, just a picture frame of aquatic life to gaze at... all the clutter hidden away. I wish I had gone to the extent of plumbing in the drains and having a sump too, maybe I'll do that some day


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## bft3278

Bill, any updates on the tank? if you have sometime shoot me some pictures of the tank.

any algae growth on the BG yet?


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## CITADELGRAD87

OK, I cleaned off some darker algae off the real rocks, but left the browninsh growth on the 3dBG, I am really happy with how this is looking even after a couple months. I added some new plants, and here are the photos, just with my phone.




























I am really happy with the USJets, there is some poo here but I had the jets off to feed them.

The fish are very calm and visible, I think the BG and the sides makes them feel safe, unlike my other aquariums where they are not skittish at all in the big tank. The automatic lights are very cool. I have them coming on at about 5:30 pm and off to the leds at 10, and it still may be a bit too much light.


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