# Calling all sump builders



## WhitzEnd (May 2, 2011)

Along with the stand im working on I am planning on building a sump system for it. I really want to have the best of all worlds. *** heard arguments for and against wet/dry, refugium, etc. Most of it has been the same ol' Bio-anything is a nitrate factory, and refugiums are overkill for freshwater. I agree with some of it but each have their merits so I thought to myself...

WHY NOT HAVE BOTH?

So here are the rendered fruits of my rambling mind. This is setup in a 29 gallon tank. Inlet goes through two filter socks then to the side over filter floss and through a perforated tray over bio media, out through the bottom and up and over to the refugium then over to the pump housing.

Do you think this would actually be worth doing or am I going too far?

If you have any design ideas or suggestions send them this way.

Here are a couple angles up my sketchup model.

(Disclaimer: My design has a few ideas that I stole from the aqueon proflex sumps. Im not playing brand favorites or anything but i just think the thing looks darn nice!)



















On a side note: Is a 29 gallon sump going to be enough for a 90 or 110 gallon tank? Or should i go for a 38 gallon?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

That size sump is fine, but you'll have to watch evaporation. I'd add an auto topoff to anything that small. Going with a 38 is only going to add a few gallons to the system, and may just make it harder to work in the sump. But, if space allows, it's usually a good idea to go with the bigger sump sizes.

Keep in mnd that filter socks often need frequent cleaning. Have you allowed bypass for if/when they clog and limit flow? In other words, where will the water go when it can't flow fast enough through the filter socks? Just keeping an eye on it is a risky plan. Better that it flow to a different chamber of the sump than your floor.

Otherwise, looks fine to me.


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## WhitzEnd (May 2, 2011)

prov356 said:


> That size sump is fine, but you'll have to watch evaporation. I'd add an auto topoff to anything that small. Going with a 38 is only going to add a few gallons to the system, and may just make it harder to work in the sump. But, if space allows, it's usually a good idea to go with the bigger sump sizes.
> 
> Keep in mnd that filter socks often need frequent cleaning. Have you allowed bypass for if/when they clog and limit flow? In other words, where will the water go when it can't flow fast enough through the filter socks? Just keeping an eye on it is a risky plan. Better that it flow to a different chamber of the sump than your floor.
> 
> Otherwise, looks fine to me.


Im considering going and building my own acrylic sump. Then i can customize the size to fit under my stand. My tank is only 48 wide so with the bracing inside i have limited space. But it is 36 inches tall so ill have plenty of room above it to work. I dont know how I would get an auto top off in such a small space.

This is going in my office and the wife would not take kindly to having anything showing outside the stand.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I built my own acrylic sump for same reasons.

You can run a line to a water source for the auto topoff, just be sure to add some type of inline filter that'd deal with chloramine/chlorine removal. If that's more than you want to get into, then just you'll just need to keep an eye on the water level.


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## WhitzEnd (May 2, 2011)

prov356 said:


> I built my own acrylic sump for same reasons.
> 
> You can run a line to a water source for the auto topoff, just be sure to add some type of inline filter that'd deal with chloramine/chlorine removal. If that's more than you want to get into, then just you'll just need to keep an eye on the water level.


With this being in my office there is no water line anywhere near. Good thing i work from home and the tank is just to my left. Its a great source of relaxation during those crazy days.


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## WhitzEnd (May 2, 2011)

prov356 said:


> I built my own acrylic sump for same reasons.
> 
> You can run a line to a water source for the auto topoff, just be sure to add some type of inline filter that'd deal with chloramine/chlorine removal. If that's more than you want to get into, then just you'll just need to keep an eye on the water level.


Hey Prov356. You couldnt post a pic of your sump could you?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Hey Prov356. You couldnt post a pic of your sump could you?


This was the first one that I built. It's been running almost 5 years now, no problems. I initially 
had the removable dividers under the light for plants, but wasn't worth the trouble, so don't use 
them any more. I just open the drain on the sump to do water changes.



















I built four of these about two years ago for the fish room. Modified the initial design just a bit. 
Working out the max size for the space always takes a lot of time. That's why the one pic 
shows a mock up. I was seeing how low I could set the first row of tanks. For these, I switch 
the two valves to drain the sump.


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## inurocker (May 9, 2011)

Prov356 Very nice work. Did you ever plant the refugium on the one in first pic?


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## CITADELGRAD87 (Mar 26, 2003)

I made a sump out of a 60G acrylic, you can see it in my My Odyssey thread on the first page.

It's very long, so after the bio tower I have about 3 feet of open tank space that I may play with as far as plants, or a time out tank.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

inurocker said:


> Prov356 Very nice work. Did you ever plant the refugium on the one in first pic?


I tried some plants that didn't need to be rooted like hornwort and then an 'onion' plant I think it was called. I could never get plants to do well in that system. They don't do well in any of my sump systems, as a matter of fact. They grow like weeds in the tanks with sponge filters.

If the objective is to keep nitrates down, then I found that I can do that just fine by keeping organics low and staying on a regular water change schedule.


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## lexi73 (May 2, 2008)

Essentially couldn't you use the proflex layout for this already? I mean the chamber where the filter socks are you could use as a refugium right? or does that need to be after the wet/dry portion.

I suppose too that you'd want it open above and lighted... hmmm then in that case you're design makes more sense.

I too have a wet/dry and it's really loud, I've been seriously considering the proflex for it's design..


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## Rick_Lindsey (Aug 26, 2002)

Each of prov's sumps looks to have a feature that imho is one of the most important when building your own sump, yet lacking from both the OP's concept drawings and the photo from lexi :

An easily accessed/maintained/replaced mechanical prefilter pad. That pad can catch most of the incoming debris, keep it out of your bio media, yet be very easy to replace/clean. By removing the debris before it decays, you can reduce the nitrate buildup in your system. I really like what looks like a little access door (drawer?) on prov's assorted sumps where that pad lives.

-Rick (the armchair aquarist, who's sump setup exists only on paper so far, so keep that grain of salt handy)


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## WhitzEnd (May 2, 2011)

Rick_Lindsey said:


> Each of prov's sumps looks to have a feature that imho is one of the most important when building your own sump, yet lacking from both the OP's concept drawings and the photo from lexi :
> 
> An easily accessed/maintained/replaced mechanical prefilter pad. That pad can catch most of the incoming debris, keep it out of your bio media, yet be very easy to replace/clean. By removing the debris before it decays, you can reduce the nitrate buildup in your system. I really like what looks like a little access door (drawer?) on prov's assorted sumps where that pad lives.
> 
> -Rick (the armchair aquarist, who's sump setup exists only on paper so far, so keep that grain of salt handy)


Rick. The sump would have a prefilter pad above the bio media in the tray shown. The proflex also has then when set up as a wet/dry. (in fact my wet/dry section is basically the same as theirs turned sideways. The water would first be filtered by the filter socks. Then flow out of that chamber over a pad of filter floss, then down through the bio media. This would get the particulate matter out before it hits the refugium.


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## WhitzEnd (May 2, 2011)

Well i finally got the design done. Ended up picking up a 40 gallon tank instead of the 29. I think its going to turn out nicely.










Im headed to the local plastics shop to order the acrylic today.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Can I ask the theory between wet / dry, with all conventional filtration systems being HOBs / Canisters the bio-media is always sub-merged.


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## lexi73 (May 2, 2008)

WhitzEnd,
So is your first stage like the proflex sumps, where the water must travel through the socks, but there is also an overflow option as seen in the image i posted above. I'd guess yours will be the same but its hard to see from the angle you posted. If you could, please post some measurements, and images as you work through this. Also keep a tally of your costs as a reference.

I think that this is a great idea, and it's cool to see someone doing it, Heck i might do this also!

As far as a refugium, Whats your intent here as far as plants? Has anyone had success with a refugium setup on freshwater, and does it really effectively reduce the nitrates? I ask because in theory it's a good idea, but whats the amount of plants needed to be effective? My tapwater is pretty high in nitrates, and this would be a great solution to a RO system.

pretty please, keep up updated with details and photos! we all love photos!


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi,

What is your PH? - What plants are you considering? Adding Ferts?


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## WhitzEnd (May 2, 2011)

lexi73 said:


> WhitzEnd,
> So is your first stage like the proflex sumps, where the water must travel through the socks, but there is also an overflow option as seen in the image i posted above. I'd guess yours will be the same but its hard to see from the angle you posted. If you could, please post some measurements, and images as you work through this. Also keep a tally of your costs as a reference.
> 
> I think that this is a great idea, and it's cool to see someone doing it, Heck i might do this also!
> ...


Hey Lexi,

My first stage is pretty much an exact copy of the proflex stage. I have it able to overflow that section in case of the socks getting clogged. It just goes over the top of the wall for that. The overflow "spout" that you see just before it goes through the plate with the holes is coming out after it has passed through the filter socks. There will be a sump block at the exit of the wet/dry section before the refugium. There will be another sump block after the refugium as it spills into the return section to keep solids out of the return. (a feature I stole from the trigger systems Ruby 36S sump) The Trigger Systems sumps were also my inspiration for using colored acrylic to keep light inside the sections that it needs to stay in.

Heres a different angle on the pic.










I am keeping a tally of all my costs as well. I went to my local plastics distributor yesterday and got the acrylic ordered. I am just waiting on them to call me with the total. I had them cut it to rough size then I will trim it if needed. I am also doing a top for it as well. Ill get that worked up in sketchup today and post some pics. The 11 5/8 x 24 piece is so I can make the drip plate and have some extra to test my acrylic welding skills with. Here is my cut list for a Marineland/Perfecto 40 gallon tank. Actual internal dimensions are 35.5 x 11.75 x 20.

Grey
1 - 11 5/8 x 19
1 - 11 5/8 x 6
1 - 11 5/8 x 15
2 - 11 5/8 x 11
1 - 11 5/8 x 10
1 - 11 5/8 x 24

Black
1 - 11 1/2 x 36

Clear
1 - 12 x 12
1 - 2" OD acrylic tube 12" long and capped with grey acrylic on one end

Im not sure what im going to do for plants yet. To be honest i have no clue how much is needed to effectively reduce nitrates. Though I figure any reduction will be welcome. If the fuge doesnt work out like I want then I at least have some extra water volume and I can screen in that section to house fry or quarantine expectant mothers. *** been scouring these forums to see what people have grown successfully. Ill probably go java fern, anubias, and maybe some spiral valls (I love the way those look) If the plants do well in the fuge I may try my hand at some in tank ones too. My tapwater has a bit of nitrate in it as well (~5-10ppm)

To tim_s,

My PH is 8 out of the tap. I buffer it to bring it up to 8.2. Not sure about ferts yet. Still doing my research. As far as the theory between this and HOB/Canister filters. My current filter on my 55 is an emperor 400. I have the regular filter cartridges and 2 fullly submerged cell pore bio slabs that I have had for many years. (I havent been able to find them anywhere in years) Those take care of the anaerobic portion of the wet/dry filter. It also has 2 bio wheels that take care of the part exposed to air. *** tried other bio media submerged in it and I just love those cell pore blocks. Those will probably go in my sump to get the tank cycled.


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## WhitzEnd (May 2, 2011)

And the plastics guy just called. So here is the grand total.

40 Gal Marineland/Perfecto tank - $80
All acrylic precut to size and some weld-on - $100
2 tubes of GE Silicone 1 - $10
2 2x4x12 inch foam sump blocks - $10

Grand Total = $200

Saving 169 bucks over buying the proflex model 4 at my LFS and not getting quite what i wanted - Priceless


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## lexi73 (May 2, 2008)

Thanks for the additional details, it surely helps. So looks from your sketch the sizes are roughly:
1st stage - 6"
2nd Wet/Dry - 10"
2nd sump block - 2"
3rd refugium - 10"
3nd sump block - 2"
4th return - 6"

The colored acrylic is a great idea to keep the light in the refugium only as to grow items only there. I'm really interested how this turns out for you, as i'm highly considering doing this myself after i get back from vacation. Stage 1 will also house my heaters, so i'd make the first stage shelf also removable with a notch for the cords.

Just as a rundown of your parts:

Grey
1 - 11 5/8 x 19 - first stage wall
1 - 11 5/8 x 6 - Filter Sock horizontal platform
1 - 11 5/8 x 15 - Second Stage Wall
2 - 11 5/8 x 11 - Third stage entry wall
1 - 11 5/8 x 10 - third stage exit wall
1 - 11 5/8 x 24 - Drip and Extra Piece

What about return wall?

Black
1 - 11 1/2 x 36 - Top ?

Clear
1 - 12 x 12 - Top refugium cover?


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## WhitzEnd (May 2, 2011)

lexi73 said:


> Thanks for the additional details, it surely helps. So looks from your sketch the sizes are roughly:
> 1st stage - 6"
> 2nd Wet/Dry - 10"
> 2nd sump block - 2"
> ...


And you are spot on with the sizes. I may adjust a little here and there for my return pump. Which will be a mag 9.5. I think....

The 2 - 11 5/8 x 11 is the refugium entry and exit wall. The 1 - 11 5/8 x 10 is the return wall. And you are right about the top. The black top will have a hole cut in it and the clear will be added to the window for the refugium light. Im working on designging the top now. It will probably be in a couple of pieces.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi,

IF you do go down the plant route this article may assist in the approach taken.

LINK: http://home.infinet.net/teban/how-to.html


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## lexi73 (May 2, 2008)

WhitzEnd said:


> And you are spot on with the sizes. I may adjust a little here and there for my return pump. Which will be a mag 9.5. I think....
> 
> The 2 - 11 5/8 x 11 is the refugium entry and exit wall. The 1 - 11 5/8 x 10 is the return wall. And you are right about the top. The black top will have a hole cut in it and the clear will be added to the window for the refugium light. Im working on designging the top now. It will probably be in a couple of pieces.


Ahh i missed the 2x 11 5/8... yes i get it now.


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## WhitzEnd (May 2, 2011)

tim_s said:


> Hi,
> 
> IF you do go down the plant route this article may assist in the approach taken.
> 
> LINK: http://home.infinet.net/teban/how-to.html


Thanks for the link tim_s. That will come in handy. Im sure i will try my hand at the plants.


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

I too am, considering trying plants but the success of the experiment won't make or break it. Just an extra compartment created by baffles, if for nothing else it can go to buffering the water.


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## lexi73 (May 2, 2008)

So have you started this? Interested in getting some updates!


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## WhitzEnd (May 2, 2011)

lexi73 said:


> So have you started this? Interested in getting some updates!


Yes i have started it. Ill have some pics up in a few.


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## WhitzEnd (May 2, 2011)

So its up on its side on my table right now. I rotated it so it looks a little weird.










Heres the inlet portion.










Im working on the refugium in and out sections now. I was going to slot the top with teeth but my router went kaput on me. So i decided to drill a grid of tightly spaced holes instead. Should have those drilled at lunch. Ill get pics of them up later.


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## WhitzEnd (May 2, 2011)

Also. My silicone work is CRAPTASTIC! I could make it look better but i want to make sure those acrylic baffles are secure.


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## lexi73 (May 2, 2008)

Looking good!

I picked up a good deal on a 45 gallon long, here's what i've got planned, very similar to yours, just different dimensions. I'm very bad at sketchup, but very good in photoshop, so thats what u used.








How did you determine the wall heights, other than just how it needs to flow? For instance, does the depth of the refugium matter? Does the Bio Balls need to be so far out of the water for the drip to be effective? Etc....

Thanks for all your help with this, Very inspirational!


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

WhitzEnd said:


> So its up on its side on my table right now.  I rotated it so it looks a little weird.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For chamber # 1 referencing the basin above the filter socks and next to your first baffle - IF your over flow slot is at the direct base of the basin, you would have to drop the water directly within the filter socks for efficiency, so the over-flow returns by building and traveling back up the filter sock then using the framing "the base of the first basin" before traveling out the overflow, which is ok but if you are drop water anywhere else the path of least resistance will be straight out the over flow, especially if the filter socks create a higher point in the connection space "Where the sock is held in place with the framing". - will of course get a lot water still passing through the filter sock but you will also get a lot of water through the over-flow.

Hope I am helping.

EDIT:

I am sorry when reviewing your design again I notice you are dropping the in-coming water into Chamber # 1 - Basin # 2 and raising this through the filter socks, then using the overflow into Chamber # 2 ? <= If I am correct with this statement than you will have challenges when removing the filter socks for maintenance as you will release the contents, unless you stop the sump. - Filter socks get dirty frequently, you might not wish this either.


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## WhitzEnd (May 2, 2011)

Tim_S

I copied the inlet portion of the aqueon proflex almost identically. The water goes in to the sump through a pipe in the bubble tube shown at the bottom. Then up it and down through the filter socks. Yes i know that alot of the water will flow from the top of the chamber under the socks. That is by design. There will still be enough flow for that not to matter much. The socks will still catch all the needed gunk. Ill flip it here shortly so you can get a better view. The socks lift straight out so i wont really have to worry about their gunk getting back in the sump when being replaced.


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## WhitzEnd (May 2, 2011)

lexi73 said:


> Looking good!
> 
> I picked up a good deal on a 45 gallon long, here's what i've got planned, very similar to yours, just different dimensions. I'm very bad at sketchup, but very good in photoshop, so thats what u used.
> 
> ...


I wanted the water height of my fuge to be half the height of the tank. So I started with that height and went from there. Since the premise of the bio ball chamber is wet/dry i tried to keep a 50/50 ratio of out of water/submerged bio balls. I see this commonly in sumps I have looked at. Dont know if its ideal or not but with how many i have seen running that way I figured it must be fairly effective. I wouldnt even know how to calculate what the optimum ratio of submerged vs not is. My tank internally is 19.5 tall. I rounded down to 19 and set my fuge height at 9.5. Then there is 3 inches below the bio media and 3 inches above. This sets the 50/50 ratio right where i want it. More pics to come.

If you want help with sketchup let me know. I would be happy to draft your sump up for you in there.


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## WhitzEnd (May 2, 2011)

Also: some things i learned in this endeavor. A 4" filter sock is 4 1/8" overall diameter. I used a 4 inch hole saw to drill my sock holders They are a little large and dont hold the socks as tightly as I would like. I plan on using some foam weather stripping to ensure a tight fit unless anyone else has a better idea.


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## WhitzEnd (May 2, 2011)

Okay. So some more updates: I got the fuge "end" wall drilled. Couldnt do teeth so i went with alot of holes. Should serve the same purpose. I intentionally made the wall about 2.5 inches too high. The bottom of the holes is the intended wall height. The extra heigh should help contain anything i put in there. ( i may use this to separate holding females??? )

I used 1/4 inch holes space half and inch apart and staggered. So there is an 1/8th inch of acrylic between holes. I marked a grid on the paper to set my spacing. You must drill VERY slowly to prevent tearout and keep the acrylic from climbing the bit and cracking. It took 10-15 seconds per hole. Thats alot of drilling and I would hate to see anyone that uses this technique to break their hard work.

Onto the pics:

With Grid on backing paper.









With the paper off (my current 55 is in the background)


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## tim_s (Nov 27, 2011)

WhitzEnd said:


> Tim_S
> 
> I copied the inlet portion of the aqueon proflex almost identically. The water goes in to the sump through a pipe in the bubble tube shown at the bottom. Then up it and down through the filter socks. Yes i know that alot of the water will flow from the top of the chamber under the socks. That is by design. There will still be enough flow for that not to matter much. The socks will still catch all the needed gunk. Ill flip it here shortly so you can get a better view. The socks lift straight out so i wont really have to worry about their gunk getting back in the sump when being replaced.


Hi WhitzEnd,

Makes a little more sense, sorry when looking at your "stage of construction" picture it appeared that Chamber #2 was feeding from above the filter socks - I was confused. The specs show below the quoted post has cleared this confusion.


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## lexi73 (May 2, 2008)

Tim,
I was trying to figure out what you were speaking of, but i wasn't sure. Your explanation above now makes it click in my head. I agree the photo could be taken that way, but as you see from my elementary drawing, it must flow through the socks, unless they clog, then it flows over the top wall into the wet/dry area.

WhitzEnd
WOW, i hope you clamped the two pieces together so save some time! Thats a lot of holes! Looking GREAT so far!

thanks for the help on the wall heights, I've adjusted my plans to be similar, it does make sense. I was just wanting them tall enough for a decent refugium, but not too tall that it cant handle the flow back in the case of a power failure. I think i'm going to try and raise my drip tray as high as possible to have a deeper refugium if possible.

Thanks for the offer to draft mine in sckechup, but it looks like you're busy enough to spend time on my project.... I'm really interested to see how you like yours once it's up and running, plus hear if you would have adjusted or changed anything.


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## WhitzEnd (May 2, 2011)

lexi73 said:


> Tim,
> I was trying to figure out what you were speaking of, but i wasn't sure. Your explanation above now makes it click in my head. I agree the photo could be taken that way, but as you see from my elementary drawing, it must flow through the socks, unless they clog, then it flows over the top wall into the wet/dry area.
> 
> WhitzEnd
> ...


No problem. Glad to be of help.

I WISH i would have thought to clamp the two pieces together when i started drilling. I started on the fuge entry at lunch today. Should have it drilled and siliconed in place by this evening.


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## WhitzEnd (May 2, 2011)

Well shes all finished. Dont have my pump yet so im going to test it out tomorrow with a powerhead and some tubing to check that everything is working right. *** still got 1 baffle that needs to fully cure.

Here are a few finished views.


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## lexi73 (May 2, 2008)

Looking good! Hows the silicone holding the pieces in place?

Interested to hear your thoughts once you've got it running on a tank! Hopefully i'll get started on mine in a few weeks once i've got some time.


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## WhitzEnd (May 2, 2011)

lexi73 said:


> Looking good! Hows the silicone holding the pieces in place?
> 
> Interested to hear your thoughts once you've got it running on a tank! Hopefully i'll get started on mine in a few weeks once i've got some time.


The silicone is holding nicely. I used alot. There is at least a 3/8th inch bead on each side of the silicone. So the acrylic is sandwiched between two beads really. And whoever said that it didnt bond to silicone must be nuts. I lightly sanded the outside 1/4" and it stuck pretty well. I still have a test piece that it doesnt want to come off of.


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## lexi73 (May 2, 2008)

So,
I've been gone since my last post... have you got this up and running? Any revisions or thoughts that you have about the project?


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## tkromer (Aug 17, 2007)

I having a brain fart here, so please don't laugh at me too hard.

Pipe from aquarium fits inside that pipe in the first chamber right? Water flows backwards up that pipe, onto the flat piece and then falls down through the filter socks?


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## lexi73 (May 2, 2008)

Tkromer, Yes you're correct. it's a design to remove the splashing sound and bubbles before they hit the socks.


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## tkromer (Aug 17, 2007)

NOW it all makes sense, wonderful!

What keeps your drain pipe/hose from the tank suspended in the tube instead of hitting bottom?


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## blavis (Mar 5, 2012)

What's the purpose of the piece of glass in the very last section? The section that has the return pump. It's suspended and I don't understand.

Thanks


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## iwade4fish (Jan 5, 2009)

blavis said:


> What's the purpose of the piece of glass in the very last section? The section that has the return pump. It's suspended and I don't understand.
> 
> Thanks


I beleive it holds the sponge against the next piece of acrylic, a redundancy precaution, and a brilliant one at that. You never know what could fall into the refuge area and compromise the pump.

@ tkromer, a little American ingenuity comes into play here, use what works for you. Tape, suction cups, custom lumber holder, string, gum, silicone, JBWeld, hot glue, super glue, a spacer at the bottom of the tube, a flange, a set screw,.......


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