# 125G Tropheus sp. 'Ikola' (Kaiser)



## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)




----------



## JimA (Nov 7, 2009)

Very cool, love the pleaco's coming out.. What were you feeding them?


----------



## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Yes, it's fascinating to see how in that tank with all the tropheus the plecos know they need to come out at feeding time, because there is no such thing as leftovers ;-)

The tank gets fed exclusively spirulina flakes, and they go through a ton of them. I have used both HBH brand, and the ones from Ken's fish. The latter are a little cheaper and seem to be near enough the same thing as far as I can tell.

If you switch the sound on, and can stomach a heavy German accent, I tell you all of that during the video :wink:


----------



## NJmomie (Jan 17, 2013)

Is this a new tank of yours? I don't see it listed in your "tank list". Beautiful...


----------



## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

NJmomie said:


> Is this a new tank of yours? I don't see it listed in your "tank list". Beautiful...


It's the same 125G Tropheus tank you see in the list - with some minor changes. :lol:

In a nutshell, the big piece of wood was not as inert as I thought, and the rotting wood did not agree with the Bemba Tropheus. I lost all the Bembas, used the tank for Brichardi for a short time, sold the wood and the Brichardi, re-decorated the tank with Texas Holey Rock, re-stocked the tank with Tricolor Cyps, got bored with the Cyps because they refused to breed, used the tank as grow out tank for Frontosa for some months, sold the Frontosa at the OCA Extravaganza 2011, where I picked up 28 Tropheus Kaiser from John Oyer. Since then the tank has been housing Tropheus again, and so far so good!

If you look at photos of the tank from the Bemba time, you can see some raggy Cryps on the left and a lush Valisneria forest on the right. That's because the Bembas used to shred the Crypts almost down to the root, while they never touched the Valisneria. Now with the Kaisers you can see a lush Crypt forest on the left, and no more Valisneria on the right. Interestingly, the Kaisers never touched the Crypts, while they ate the Valisneria (and any Java fern in the tank) down to little stumps. I pulled the Valisneria, and now have them in my 75G, where they have made a nice comeback. The anubias also have made tremendous progress, disproving anybody who says you can't have plants with Tropheus, but a plant really worth looking at is the Bolbitis in that tank. In the video with the Cyps it is brand new and rather dangly. Now in the latest video with the Kaisers you can see what one of those ferns can look like when well established. It's taken years to grow to that size though, and I hate to think how many Bolbitis I have killed before having success with this one!

In the same time this 125G has gone through so many changes, and my 75G has gone from from SA Cichlid to Malawi Mbuna to Tanganyika to Lifebearer, I have not added a single fish to my 240G or changed any of the decorations. In the 240G I have removed only what's necessary to prevent overcrowding the tank with fry.


----------



## nudge (Aug 1, 2011)

thats a great tank you have there, luv the ikolas


----------



## ratbones86 (Jun 29, 2012)

beautiful tank!


----------



## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I was always worried about that bogwood and pH of 7.4. Hope these guys do better for you long term. Me always found sp Ikola/Kaiser particularly pugnatious but with those numbers you should be OK for sure.
Dunno if the sp. "ikola" will last. Seems little DNA evidence they are a different species from sp. "Black". Kind of a pitty because they seem so different in tanks?
Plants in a Troph tank. For sure looks good but for sure makes it harder. 

All the best James


----------



## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

24Tropheus said:


> I was always worried about that bogwood and pH of 7.4.


I know, and you were not the only one who thought I was nuts for trying that 

But you know what, I am going to dig my heals in here and insist it could have worked. The way I had the root in the tank, what was once the bottom of it was facing the front glass, meaning the bit where I sawed off the trunk of the tree was facing the back. That looked very attractive, but I should have expected the middle of the trunk to be the softest part of the wood most vulnerable to rotting. With that part facing the painted back wall of the tank I could not inspect it. Only when I took the root out of the tank, the problem became obvious - bad stench of rotting organic material. It was credit to the excellent filtration system in that tank and the automatic water changer that ammonia and nitrite remained at zero, and nitrate close to it despite this problem. But in hindsight it's not surprising that something else was leached in the water which obviously finished off the Tropheus. Again, had the piece of wood not started rotting on a massive scale, I would have been fine, but the Texas Holey Rock I use now avoids the problem altogether.



24Tropheus said:


> Plants in a Troph tank. For sure looks good but for sure makes it harder.


What makes you say that? Those plants have very decent growth rates. I actually have to remove clumps of cryptocoryne once in a while, and have sold them. That means the plants are removing nitrate from the water and are improving the water quality. That should be good for Tropheus, no?

The plants also provide shelter for fry. Without them I don't think any fry would survive in the tank.


----------



## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

fmueller said:


> 24Tropheus said:
> 
> 
> > Plants in a Troph tank. For sure looks good but for sure makes it harder.
> ...


These plants do not grow were Tropheus live in the wild.
Tropheus do not live were these plants grow.
They are from different habbitats.
Tropheus can addapt as can the plants to some extent and a happy conpromise reached, however that is I find this harder to acheive than keeping stuff from one habbitat or another.
Tropheus do well crowded in tanks with high water movement most plants dislike that.
The plants take in carbon dioxide during the day (upping pH) and give out during the night (lowering pH) thus the pH is not as stable as it could be.
While the plants take in nitrates (goodthing) they are also a bank of pollution if they die.
If they are ill and the Troph eat them it may give the Troph gut problems that could make them succeptable to bloat.
Nitrate is not the only thing we reduce with waterchanges we also remove other chems/substances and replace others with fresh. Relieing on plants is a bit dodgy.
Finaly you cut off being able to do one trick for reducing aggression, that is reducing light.
To be honest you get most of the advantages of these plants using artifical ones with none of the disadvantages.

Sorry if thats a bit long..................but you did ask. :wink:

Admire the skill to get it to work at all.

All the best James


----------



## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

Great looking tank! I'm not usually a fan of THR but yours looks great, especially with the background painted green and the plants growing so naturally on the rocks.

More power to you for being able to pull off having a fairly heavily planted tank with trophs. I didn't have great success when I tried it but every colony is different (as your experience shows).


----------



## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

Have you done some kind of mod on the 2260's intake tube? It almost looks like there are holes running all the way to the top.


----------



## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

A biotope aquarium, where fish, plants, decorations, water chemistry, and other parameters, all match those found in a specific natural habitat is a tremendously appealing idea for many aquarists, including myself. However, on closer inspection I have never once seen a rift lake setup that could credibly pass as biotope setup, mostly because the substrate and rocks found in the lakes aren't suitable for the home aquarium, and the size of a typical habitat in the lake is such an important factor that it can not be replicated even in an 8' tank. The boulders in the lake tend to be huge, and the substrate brown and unattractive. By the end of the day, invariably some sort of compromise is struck, and I find it important to note that the concept of a biotope aquarium is predominantly appealing on an aesthetic/philosophical level. For the well being of the fish, it is far better to provide them with what they need to thrive under the obvious constraints of a tank environment, rather than worrying about what might or might not match their natural habitat. For example in nature very few rocks are arranged in the form of caves. In most fish tanks we are looking to provide as many caves as possible, an have to arrange the rocks in a somewhat less than natural way.

To me just about the most important aspect of a natural Tropheus habitat is that it is located in the shallow, sun drenched surge zone of the lake. That's where the algae grow that Tropheus spend their entire life munching on. You can see it clearly in this video at about 4:18 min in. Sorry, the commentary is in German, but you can see the sun penetrating the water which is only a few feet deep. Keeping these fish in a dark tank with no natural algae growth to curb aggression is about as contrary to replicating their habitat as one can imagine!



24Tropheus said:


> Tropheus do well crowded in tanks with high water movement most plants dislike that.


That's why you pick plants that like current. Notice the Bolbitis sp. in the video? Bolbitis thrives on current!



24Tropheus said:


> The plants take in carbon dioxide during the day (upping pH) and give out during the night (lowering pH) thus the pH is not as stable as it could be.


The pH changes due to this effect in a 125G tank with just a few plants would be minimal. I doubt you could measure it without access to a precision pH meter. I dare say simple rainfall in the fish's natural habitat would cause far greater pH swings.



24Tropheus said:


> While the plants take in nitrates (goodthing) they are also a bank of pollution if they die.


Nobody advocated keeping large amounts of rotting plant matter in a tank - even though I admittedly made that mistake with my piece of driftwood 



24Tropheus said:


> If they are ill and the Troph eat them it may give the Troph gut problems that could make them succeptable to bloat.


Plant matter is the natural food choice for Tropheus, because it provides them with fiber that keeps their digestive system healthy. I am not aware that eating certain types of plant matter has been linked to bloat, and frankly I think the idea is far fetched. To me it seems far more likely that the excessive consumption of non-plant matter, containing a different type of proteins, might be partly responsible for this disease (stress also seems to play a significant role), but the causes for bloat are still very much unclear.



24Tropheus said:


> Nitrate is not the only thing we reduce with water changes we also remove other chems/substances and replace others with fresh. Relieing on plants is a bit dodgy.


I couldn't agree more. That's why the tank changes about 10% of water daily via an automatic drip system.



24Tropheus said:


> Finaly you cut off being able to do one trick for reducing aggression, that is reducing light.


I addressed this very unnatural 'trick' before.



24Tropheus said:


> To be honest you get most of the advantages of these plants using artifical ones with none of the disadvantages.


What happened to our concept of a biotope aquarium? We might as well be using something like this:


----------



## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

zimmy - the 2260 intake tube is stock. I believe the black dots are black hair algae - or what's left of them between the tropheus and the plecos. I could use some suggestions how to keep the pipe stuck to the back wall. I am currently using a Zoo Med Mag Clip, which I love, but for this one wretched pipe it's not strong enough :x

THR - same here. In my 75G you can no longer see it's THR, it's so overgrown :lol:


----------



## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Biotype for Tropheus does not include plants or bog wood.
Yep you can do it. But its for you not the fish. Water circulation seems to be another necessity of Tropheus. Many Tropheus live near the surge habitat and handle it well. Their fry also seem to grow better in a tank with good circulation.
Tropheus are specifically algae grazers, but take all other stuff if given the oppertunity, they have a very long digestive tract, and need to be fed often, with the correct diet. Rotting plant matter does not equel algae.
Spirulina high foods seem a good option you can buy but it still does not equel the natural diet.
I seem to have upset you. Will talk again when you have calmed down.
Pics are nice but a bit silly. :wink:

All the best James


----------



## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Main prob is as I see it is you have had to include plecs to keep the algae down and stop algae killing the plants. Far better I think to remove the plants and the plecs and let the Tropheus eat their fill of algae.

All the best James


----------



## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Dunno why I am posting. You always go your own way anyway. And thats what makes you and your set ups interesting. 8)


----------



## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

fmueller said:


> I could use some suggestions how to keep the pipe stuck to the back wall. I am currently using a Zoo Med Mag Clip, which I love, but for this one wretched pipe it's not strong enough :x


I used the same thing for my 2262 intake with two of the stock Eheim suction cups. The tube seemed a bit precariously attached but it never moved.


----------



## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Hi James,

In reading over my previous post again, I see that it might come over as somewhat defensive. I apologize for not expressing myself more clearly, because it certainly wasn't meant that way. I should also say that when it comes to actual experience in keeping Tropheus, I certainly can't hold a candle to you. The Kaisers are only my second colony, and the first one (Bembas), I managed to kill down to the last fish - not exactly a glowing recommendation. That said, I enjoy a good discussion, especially with somebody else who likes to call a spade a spade, and somehow I feel in this you are a kindred spirit 

Now without further ado, plastic plants are a pet-peeve of mine. I really can't abide them. If others are happy with them, who am I to tell other people what their tanks should look like, but for my tanks I see absolutely no difference between Sponge Bob's pineapple and the fanciest fake aquarium plants out there. Either one is a a lump of plastic. You can put lipstick on a pig...

As far as real plants go, obviously they have no place in a biotope tank for Tropheus, and neither has bog wood. But none of my setups make any pretense of being a biotope setup. Show me any example of a rift lake biotope setup, and I'll explain to you why it isn't one!

A good current is very helpful in a Tropheus tank - biotope or not. That far I agree with you, and the current in my 125G is quite amazing. Maybe the video does not do the output of the 2260 with diffusor justice. I am not sure if you are familiar with the Eheim diffusor, but it creates a current completely unlike a spraybar or any other canister filter outlet I have used.

Where we seem to disagree is the huge benefit provided to algae grazing fish, including Tropheus, in equipping their tanks with ample lighting that allows the algae to grow that they so enjoy. I would be very reluctant to give this up for a dark tank that might curb aggression - last but not least because I also like to see my fish. I am kind of selfish in that way :wink:

To the Kaisers I feed Spirulina flake, but I like the fact that their diet is at least complemented by their natural food, algae, which is available to them in small quantities 24x7. As you explained, this is exactly what their sensitive digestive system was built to work with. I consider other plant matter a welcome addition. Many people feed algae grazers things like lettuce, peas, cucumbers, zucchini, and so on. I don't do that, because I am lazy and think it's not necessary, but if they take the occasional bite out of a cryptocoryne, I see no harm in that.

While I am not a very experienced Tropheus keeper myself, I have talked to other people such as Klaus Steinhaus, who maintains http://www.buntbarsch.ca, and has decades of experience keeping colonies of a wide range of Tropheus varieties. Klaus and I might not agree on everything - he certainly did not approve of my bogwood experiment in a Tropheus tank - but Klaus keeps life plants in nearly all of his Tropheus setups with no ill effects.

Greetings

Frank


----------



## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Frank, you can make an acrylic holder for your Eheim intake either using a wreath hanger or making your own out of acrylic scraps.

Check out This post for the one I did on mine.


----------



## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

*Dee* - that's an interesting idea. The trouble with my intake is that it comes forward at the bottom. The problem might just be the way I have the hose attched to the top, which might be twisted and put some force on the intake that makes it come forward. I reckon tomorrow will be a good opportunity to look into the issue, since the electronic ballast of one of the lights on that tank gave up the ghost today, and needs replacing. So tomorrow I'll be working on the tank anyhow.

*James* - the plecos were in the tank from the time when I used it for cyps and fronts. Seeing that these fish don't eat algae, I introduced the plecos to control them. When I got rid of the other fish, the plecos were firmly established in the tank, with gazillions of fry in the rocks and in the plants. I tried to catch all of them, but as you can see I wasn't particularly successful 

Thanks for the compliment regarding interesting setups. I figure somebody has to make the mistakes we all can learn about, and once in a while it is my turn  
Regarding going my own way, I visit these kind of forums for advice. If I want orders for what to do next, I simply ask my wife :lol:


----------



## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Wow if Klaus aproves then I guess its fine. :wink: Far better Troph keeper than me.
Watch talking to him, may get you keeping and breeding CARES cichlids. :thumb:

All the best James


----------



## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

24Tropheus said:


> Watch talking to him, may get you keeping and breeding CARES cichlids. :thumb:


CARES is a great program, but you really need to have a fish room with a few spare tanks to participate in any meaningful way. If ever I get a fish room, I will.

Until then I'll distract Klaus by talking about photography whenever I see him, which is usually at least once a year at the OCA Extravaganza.

Regarding plants, you will know that Klaus is German, and I haven't seen many tanks in Germany - or the Netherlands - that are entirely without plants. If you have grown up in that environment, somehow a tank without live plants seems oddly incomplete


----------



## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Kind of would prefer this tank without one of the Bulu or Ikola plus a few more fish from were Ikola or Bulu are from depending on the choice. I would kind of like both but separate. :wink: 
But kind of dreaming, no way I got the money.




Its all good.

All the best James


----------



## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Sadly all I can aford at the moment is this one.
http://s84.photobucket.com/user/24Troph ... sort=3&o=4


----------



## NJmomie (Jan 17, 2013)

24Tropheus said:


> Kind of would prefer this tank without one of the Bulu or Ikola plus a few more fish from were Ikola or Bulu are from depending on the choice. I would kind of like both but separate. :wink:
> But kind of dreaming, no way I got the money.
> 
> 
> ...


That is a great tank. I wish the video showed the entire tank though. There is no concern of cross-breeding between the Bulu and Ikola?


----------



## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Thats what I would worry about too. In those numbers I guess not but still not biotype kind of thing.


----------



## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Yeah, I don't like mixing different varieties of Tropheus. And backgrounds in that 1970's swimming pool baby blue are about as high up on my preference list as plastic plants :lol:

Other than that, great tank :thumb:

Come to think of it, would be better with some Anubias


----------



## Als49 (Jul 11, 2014)

Is there any update on this beautiful tropheus planted tank?


----------

