# My Dirty Hybrid Yellow Lab



## Sakura

Please help me figure out if I have the world's worst quality lab mix or something else (I happened upon a picture today). Every time I become ever so slightly confident in my ability to ID young common malawis, this happens: I start to notice one of my fish not turning out how I expected.

I bought this fish from an exotic pet store that was closing along with a saulosi (IDed as a zebra), a borleyi (IDed as a peacock), and a mystery fish that turned out to be a joanjohnsonae (it was shiny).

I believed it was a pure yellow lab until a couple of months ago it started flashing this bandit beard, eyebrows, and mask. Poor quality lab, I thought. Then it acquired dark black stripes going down half the length of its body and the face and tail fin have blue overtones. Hybrid, I thought.

This picture is from a couple of months ago - he has solid black vertical striping now.


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## SinisterKisses

It's a hybrid. Looks like a lab/saulosi cross.


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## Joea

SinisterKisses said:


> It's a hybrid.


Most definitely.


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## quiksilver

nice colours tho


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## shamish

Cool looking fish!!!!


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## lovemycichlids805

I'll take it if you don't want it!


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## bmills

I happen to agree with Shamish. While I have pretty strong views on avoiding the deliberate continuation of hybrids, and would urge you not to breed from this fish or give him/her away, it is a very nice looking fish! I'm sure you enjoy having it in your tank.

I'm with SK in guessing Lab/Saulosi cross - probably male.


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## Sakura

Thank you for confirming this is just a hybrid. I was kind of hoping he was a flavus so I could justify keeping him, but he will have to go so at to not contaminate the incoming group of labs I plan to order along with a demasoni colony. Unfortunately he won't fit into my SA tank or my soon to be shellie tank.


From his behavior and appearance he is probably male. He doesn't swim in the open water except for at feeding time, but claims a rock pile and digs 16 hours a day. He is the most industrious excavator in my tank, followed by my female saulosi.

Hades hath no fury like this fish unleashes if someone comes near his hole. This is when he dons his "angry eyes", so called because he get dark black eyebrows and a villainous beard.
opcorn:


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## aaxxeell

it may be a hybrid but hey, congrats its one of the most attractive looking mbuna hybrids *** ever seen :thumb: 
i'd keep him 4 sure


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## kingdave

I'd fry him up and eat him with some tartar sauce and malt vinegar like I do with any other hybrids. Just kidding :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## etcbrown

Does your "hybrid" by any chance look like this guy now?

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=979

Tough to tell in the photo in the profile of this fish, but it doesn't appear this particular species has as pronounced of a tropheops type head. Also doesn't appear that it has the typical tropheops straight line mouth on the bottom of the head. Could be the angles though as I have never kept this particular tropheops.

Not making the statement that your fish is this species, but more pictures might confirm one way or the other, especially if he is done transforming to adult colors. Did he lose the submarginal band in his dorsal as he developed the black stripes? Seems that this species of tropheops has female/juvenile submarginal band in the dorsal that disappears as an adult male.


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## fightingfish

thats one awsome looking fish shame its a hybrid and not natural.


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## etcbrown

In case you don't care to follow the links here are the photos of Tropheops sp. red fin for comparison:


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## straitjacketstar

It's not a Tropheops sp. Redfin.
Op's fish is missing barring where T. sp. Redfins shows the most.
If I had to guss I'd say op's fish is a lab x "johannii type" cross.


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## etcbrown

straitjacketstar said:


> It's not a Tropheops sp. Redfin.
> Op's fish is missing barring where T. sp. Redfins shows the most.
> If I had to guss I'd say op's fish is a lab x "johannii type" cross.


 Pretty bold statement that it's not an "choose your type of fish". I wish I had the talent to do that from one picture of a fish that has been identified as being in the middle of a color transformation.

I never claimed the fish was any type of fish. Just theorizing that it looks most like Tropheops sp red fin, particularly when coupled with the fact the OP originally thought it was a Lab. caeruleus.

Juvenile/female Tropheops sp. red fin:









I agree the OP fish seems more yellow than what a redfin should be, but the question is, is it done changing to adult colors?


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## SinisterKisses

The body shape on the OP's fish is not tropheops, never mind the colouring.


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## etcbrown

Look Sinister, the original poster's fish is MOST likely a hybrid. But once again you are stating things as fact when you have none.

I would wager that if you were shown a picture of a wild Tropheops sp redfin (like all three of those I posted) that you would state they didn't have the body shape of a Tropheops. Why? Because they don't look like other tropheops, they look like Psuedotropheus.

Bottom line is, it seems during the short time I have visited this forum that you take the easy way out and label anything unusual as a hybrid. Thats your choice of course and its pretty safe as the vast majority are going to be hybrids, makes you right most of the time. I prefer to take the time to look into what the possibilities are. If there is a profile that closely matches the fish in question, why not give it a little more effort?

This particular fish has not had enough evidence presented to rule out Tropheops sp. redfin in my opinion. Although a picture as a juvenile or at least some more current ones would go miles toward that. I would even settle for the OP sharing their thoughts.

Cheers :thumb:


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## SinisterKisses

Lol oh whatever...I actually usually try to refrain from suggesting a fish is a hybrid unless I'm pretty **** positive that it is. Like in this case. If I'm not sure what a fish is, then I don't say jack **** about it, not just post that it's a hybrid and carry on.

Like it or not, the OP's fish does not have a tropheops body type, which is a pretty **** good indicator that it is not a redfin.


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## etcbrown

Fair enough.


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## Joea

Definitely not a Tropheops, it is indeed a hybrid.


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## Ispintechno

That's got to be the coolest mbuna hybrid ever - I'd be tempted to keep that guy as I'm not a breeder. 
Yellow lab X Tropheops gracilior?


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## steveangela1

you all should take into consideration that not only are the fish not all hybrids that are needing ids on here, but they are not going to have the coloration in the "konings" book either. the wild colors are not the same as the tank bred, after being bred down genterations they will have diferent coloration to a certain extent. 
I also have to note that if you could get a pic of that certain fishes mouth/teeth structure it would give it away whether or not it was a pseudotroph, troph, etc... its easier to classify the fish by that.


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## steveangela1

I have to agree also that is a beautiful fish, much like my "cheif" and if "cheif" turns out to be a hybrid, so be it... hes still staying in my tank...


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## Joea

steveangela1 said:


> you all should take into consideration that not only are the fish not all hybrids that are needing ids on here


No one here is making that claim. In this case however, the fish is a hybrid.

I'm not sure why everyone gets so defensive when a fish is identified as a hybrid. No one is castigating the owner, we're simply identifying the fish for what it is. Hybrids are common, they're a reality, and a good number of fish that can't be easily identified on this board, are indeed hybrids. It's not an insult; it's just a word to describe a mix of species.


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## MalawiLover

You also have to take into account the availability of these rarer species. Many hybrids look much like some of the pure species. But if that pure species is something eirther not often imported or only available through some of the larger online sellers, it would be extremely unlikely that one could just pop into a LFS and buy one without knowing what is was. Its even less likely in a chain store where hybrids seem to almost out number the pure specimens.

There is always a possibility that something rare will get purchased by someone unknowingly, but ithe likelyhood compaired to it being a hybrid is extremely small.


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## steveangela1

I have just seen a lot of fish on here being called a "hybrid" to the extent that even a post of mine where I had put pics of my tank up for show someone questioned my labs because of their coloration, they are pure labs, and of high quality breeding. Not only that I personally bought them from a trustworthy private breeder, and even went to his place to get them myself, not to a lfs, and not a chain store. 
I guess because my labs had better coloration than had been seen in a long time they had to question it.


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## MalawiLover

steveangela1 said:


> I have just seen a lot of fish on here being called a "hybrid" to the extent that even a post of mine where I had put pics of my tank up for show someone questioned my labs because of their coloration, they are pure labs, and of high quality breeding. Not only that I personally bought them from a trustworthy private breeder, and even went to his place to get them myself, not to a lfs, and not a chain store.
> I guess because my labs had better coloration than had been seen in a long time they had to question it.


There is no one who would confuse a quality yellow lab for a hybrid. If it had markings other than what the perfect lab should have, then the quality and purity would definitely be in question.


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## steveangela1

MalawiLover said:


> steveangela1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have just seen a lot of fish on here being called a "hybrid" to the extent that even a post of mine where I had put pics of my tank up for show someone questioned my labs because of their coloration, they are pure labs, and of high quality breeding. Not only that I personally bought them from a trustworthy private breeder, and even went to his place to get them myself, not to a lfs, and not a chain store.
> I guess because my labs had better coloration than had been seen in a long time they had to question it.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no one who would confuse a quality yellow lab for a hybrid. If it had markings other than what the perfect lab should have, then the quality and purity would definitely be in question.
Click to expand...

Obviously you haven't noticed how rude of a message board this is. The labs in question that I have are spawned from F1 Lions Cove Labs, they have white on their chins, that was the big issue.


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## steveangela1

out of all the aquarium message boards I have been on this is the worst by far of the moderators and administrators for being down right hateful and to get a response to any question is few and far between.


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## Number6

steveangela1 said:


> I have just seen a lot of fish on here being called a "hybrid" to the extent that even a post of mine where I had put pics of my tank up for show someone questioned my labs because of their coloration, they are pure labs, and of high quality breeding. Not only that I personally bought them from a trustworthy private breeder, and even went to his place to get them myself, not to a lfs, and not a chain store.
> I guess because my labs had better coloration than had been seen in a long time they had to question it.


 What a disrespectful accusation...

IMHO, your Labs are NOT high quality and I do suspect that they could easily be intraspecies hybrids... they have atypical characteristics... this is why some people commented on the fish.

This sensitivity to the label hybrid is interesting, but completely misplaced... the fish is what it is...

Etcbrown is just checking on the id... fair enough to do since this is what the forum is about but let's not turn etcbrown's care turn into more than it is... it's good to explore possibilities, but in the end, we should operate on probabilities. If the fish turned out to be a good look alike for a Tropheops, then cool... breed it to one and the fry should turn out as 100% true to type. If the fry turn out at all questionable, then boom... you know that the id wasn't right. OR... you could just assume that the fish is questionable and not breed it... if you like the look, go buy a big group of Tropheops and get into breeding that species properly.

Where's the problem?


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## Number6

steveangela1 said:


> The labs in question that I have are spawned from F1 Lions Cove Labs, they have white on their chins, that was the big issue.





steveangela1 said:


> [The yellow lab pair have been in mating mode since yesterday and just so happen I got my picks when he was differently colored, today his chin is darkend like he has a evening beard, they are more like the lions cove labs with the white underside.


Story changed then... interesting...


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## Fogelhund

steveangela1 said:


> Obviously you haven't noticed how rude of a message board this is. The labs in question that I have are spawned from F1 Lions Cove Labs, they have white on their chins, that was the big issue.


Being F1 or F2 is not a guarantee of quality. For example, I currently have some F2 Labs, that frankly I'd call poor quality. I picked up about two dozen from a very good breeder. Some of the fish turned out very nice, and some fairly poor. The key is being objective enough to admit the fish doesn't have some desirable traits and removing it from breeding stock. I will admit that this board is very honest and blunt, and if you find that matter of factness rude, well I'm sorry. If my fish is not of good quality, I'd rather be told that, than breed it and continue poor genetics, than have a bunch of people tell me how great it is (when it isn't).


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## Ispintechno

I'd never fault someone for being honest too. I had some mutty electric yellows years ago and got the information I needed on this board. Not rude at all, I'm thankfull for this resource :thumb:


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## Darkside

steveangela1 said:


> you all should take into consideration that not only are the fish not all hybrids that are needing ids on here, but they are not going to have the coloration in the "konings" book either. the wild colors are not the same as the tank bred, after being bred down genterations they will have diferent coloration to a certain extent.
> I also have to note that if you could get a pic of that certain fishes mouth/teeth structure it would give it away whether or not it was a pseudotroph, troph, etc... its easier to classify the fish by that.


You have no idea how difficult it is the distinguish fish based on tooth morphology do you?


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## Joea

steveangela1 said:


> Obviously you haven't noticed how rude of a message board this is. The labs in question that I have are spawned from F1 Lions Cove Labs, they have white on their chins, that was the big issue.


I've bred hundreds of _L. caeruleus_ from a group of F1's I have and I would say about half of them turn out to be of exceptional quality, the other half are often sub-par and although are a nice addition to any tank, I wouldn't use them for breeding. The problem is that it's very hard to determine that quality until they're sub-adults which is long after they're sold. Don't let the "F" moniker lull you into thinking you have anything more than run-of-mill Labs.

I also don't understand why some people take such offense at anyone judging their fish with anything less than a "Blue Ribbon, A++, Super, Wonderful!" response. It's like the fish is a representation of its owner or that somehow we think less of you as a fellow hobbyist if we don't think it's perfect. We're not being rude, we're being honest.

The qualities of fish are almost always based on their appearance; even more so when someone posts a photo of them on a public forum. You're never going to please all of the people all of the time and if there is some type of anomaly on the fish, you'd better be prepared to take some criticism, if you can't handle it, then don't show off your fish.



Fogelhund said:


> Being F1 or F2 is not a guarantee of quality. For example, I currently have some F2 Labs, that frankly I'd call poor quality. I picked up about two dozen from a very good breeder. Some of the fish turned out very nice, and some fairly poor.


Case in point... I'm pretty sure those are Labs I bred.


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## Fogelhund

Joea said:


> Fogelhund said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being F1 or F2 is not a guarantee of quality. For example, I currently have some F2 Labs, that frankly I'd call poor quality. I picked up about two dozen from a very good breeder. Some of the fish turned out very nice, and some fairly poor.
> 
> 
> 
> Case in point... I'm pretty sure those are Labs I bred.
Click to expand...

Indeed. The dominant male at the office is barred, with a black beard.


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