# New mbuna keeper, some questions



## Corphish (Jul 8, 2014)

Hello, my name's Chris. I am new to cichlids, but not to aquariums. I had reptiles, mostly aquatic turtles, for the last ten years or so. I had kept yellow lab cichlids with various turtle species, and always found them to be very interesting and obviously smarter than the turtles. I recently moved, and no longer have turtles, but I decided I wanted to get started with cichlids. I set up a 20 gallon long tank with a fluval 206 canister and started with a group of 5 1" yellow labs. From there my partner and I have gone a bit overboard, and I would like to know how long these fish can live in this tank before I have to move them (I have a 55 gallon I am going to set up for them). The current tank is 30"x12.5"x13", biggest fish is 2.5" - 8 yellow lab, 2 redxred zebra, 3 auratus, 2 kenyi, 2 yellow-tail acei. They don't seem too crowded in there and everyone gets along well, tank has been running for 2 months with no issues yet. The fish are growing, but slowly, wich is good right? Feeding them tetra cichlid flakes and omega one micro veggie pellets, as well as romain lettuce. So I'd like to know, how long until these fish outgrow this tank and should be moved to the 55 gallon? I still need to buy a lot of things for that tank and set it up. And once it is set up, how many mbuna could I have in there total? I just want a Malawi mbuna tank. I may swap out the kenyi for another blue species as I have read kenyi get aggressive, what blue-barred species would work well? Thanks!!


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## shelbynjakesdad (Mar 13, 2013)

Once your fish really start breeding, war could break out in the 20 gallon tank. At 2.5" I'm surprised your haven't seen much aggression yet, they are usually breeding at that size. You are probably not going to want to hear this... but there are a lot of issues with your stock list.

Auratus and Kenyi are too aggressive for a 55 and both Acei and Red Zebras are borderline for a 55 (Zebras are aggressive and Acei get big). On top of that, red zebras are notorious for cross breading with yellow labs, so best not to keep them together if saving fry.

Usually a 55 is stocked with 2-3 species of "mild mannered" smaller mbunas. Labs would be fine along with something like Cynotilapia, Iodotropheus, etc. If you can swing it, go for a 75 gallon instead and your options open up a lot. The extra 6" from front to back adds a lot of territory and room for larger fish like Acei.


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## Corphish (Jul 8, 2014)

Uh oh, well should I try to trade them at Big Als or would I likely get a better deal through other hobbyists? I would honestly be happy with just the yellow labs, and something blue banded, those cynotilapia seem perfect. I don't want hybrids so I guess the zebras need to go for sure, and, well, all the rest but the labs? . That kinda sucks. I felt I was rushing while choosing them, but my bf was showing an interest in fish that I wanted to encourage so I just let him pick some. I should mention, there's only one yellow lab that is about 2.5" the rest are smaller. The larger of the two red zebras controls the tank though, he breaks up anything that looks like it might get heated.


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## shelbynjakesdad (Mar 13, 2013)

I'm not saying it cannot work, every fish is different... but to give yourself the best chance of success, you are right, keep the labs and return the rest. There are lots of options that are more "proven" to work. You will always get a better deal from other hobbyists, but sometimes its not worth the hassle, I usually rehome fish by taking to my local store.

If you want a blue barred fish that will work in a 55 (and with Labs) its hard to beat Pseudotropheus demasoni. Just keep in mind they are a "special needs" fish because of their temperament. They are notoriously hard on each other and must be kept in large groups. Usually people start with about 20+ juveniles and weed out (rehome) trouble makers or outcasts as they mature, which can be a lot of work. The payoff is amazing though as they are so beautiful and active... I've seen Lab/Dem tanks that look really great. I wasn't ready to take on that level of care, so I opted for Cynotilapia sp "Hara" and I'm happy with them, but my male is the only one who shows bars consistently.

As I said, if you can go for a 75, your options open up a lot. There still are quite a few nice options for a 55 though... browse through the profiles and post the ones you like here. Going with mbuna, you usually want to keep 1 male and 4-5 females of each species (3 species max for a 55)... so about 15 - 18 fish. The other thing you might get away with is your group of labs and 4-6 male peacocks, which could make an interesting, colorful tank. Just make sure the peacocks are male or you will have issues...


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## Corphish (Jul 8, 2014)

I really like the demansoni. I've been watching youtube videos of various species. I want fish that are more on the active side, will chase each other and such, so demansoni sound perfect. If I can find some that is what I will go with. I like the idea of some male peacocks too. I guess it will all come down to whats available when the tank is ready.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

If you go with any mbuna you'll have plenty of action and chasing. Even 'peaceful' species like L. Caeruleus and 'Acei.'


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Corphish said:


> I really like the demansoni.


Be prepared to tear the tank down often, have a hospital tank 100% of the time and have a reliable place where you can rehome extra males.

Other mbuna are a little easier than demasoni in this regard.


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## Corphish (Jul 8, 2014)

Well my 55 gallon finally has a stand and I can get it set up (ordered it, took too long). I have to get rid of most of my cichlids unfortunately as they are apparently a ticking time bomb. I am just going to transfer the 9 yellow labs and 2 yellowtail acei (all 2" and under) to this tank once it is ready. But what should I stock it with? If demansoni are really that difficult, I should pass. I just want a mix of blue and yellow cichlids, and would like to keep my yellow labs. Some red would be nice too? According to what I have read I can ultimately have three groups of different species in my tank, 1 m to 4 or 5 f, so I would like the yellow labs, something blue and something red/orange, that will all get along nicely and are not likely to hybridize. What should I get? 

ps. I want to stick to Malawi mbuna


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## hose91 (Mar 5, 2014)

Corphish said:


> Well my 55 gallon finally has a stand and I can get it set up (ordered it, took too long). I have to get rid of most of my cichlids unfortunately as they are apparently a ticking time bomb. I am just going to transfer the 9 yellow labs and 2 yellowtail acei (all 2" and under) to this tank once it is ready. But what should I stock it with? If demansoni are really that difficult, I should pass. I just want a mix of blue and yellow cichlids, and would like to keep my yellow labs. Some red would be nice too? According to what I have read I can ultimately have three groups of different species in my tank, 1 m to 4 or 5 f, so I would like the yellow labs, something blue and something red/orange, that will all get along nicely and are not likely to hybridize. What should I get?
> 
> ps. I want to stick to Malawi mbuna


Red is not really available in Mbuna except for the Red zebras that have already been discussed, and they're really orange, not red. I like your plan so far. I would add 3-4 Acei to give you 9 Yellow Labs and 5-6 Acei, and call it good. If you really wanted a third species, you could consider "snow whites" which seem to be albino Ps Socolofi, and would give you nice contrast to the blues and yellows. Seem to be mixed reviews on them in terms of agression, and I think they're about the same size as Labs when full grown. I understand from reading here that Acei will probably outgrow a 55G, but it should take a while, and you'll get a lot of enjoyment, and not all fish are bound to get huge, so maybe they'll fit in the long run.


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## 8KDR22 (Sep 5, 2012)

Hi i recently was contemplating getting the desamoni also but like u said you have a 20 gallon tank as an extra tank to hold trouble makers. Also if you have male yellow labs they often times take out the agression of the desamonis and if you have about 12 the aggression will be dispersed. I would get them they are active fun and breed almost effortlessly. Just make sure you have lots of crevices and such for them to hide in they love thhat. Just a tip 3 inch pvc makes great artificial tunnels and u can cover it up too. Im so glad i got these fish and u should too. Btw i have a 50 gallon tank with 4 yellow labs and 13 desamonis


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## Corphish (Jul 8, 2014)

What about Pseudotropheus socolofi? There are some nice ones at two different locations I can get to. I really like their colour, could I keep them with yellow labs? My 55 gallon is up and running (pics soon!) and I need to swap out some fish soon, namely; 2 kenyi, 2 auratus, 2 red zebra....leaving me with 2 yellowtail acei (2") and 9 yellow labs ranging from about 0.75" - 2". I really like the acei and don't want to get rid of them just yet if I don't have to. I will cut down the yellow labs as they grow until I have a group of 4 or 5 with one male, so I need two other species groups. Its ok to get a bunch of small ones, and rehome some as they grow til I have the right group? I don't want demansoni as nice as they are, they are too expensive for me for something that apparently dies easily.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Socolofi could work. Just be sure they're 1.5" or larger. Start with at least 8 of them. There seems to be mixed 'reviews' about their temperament, but mbuna don't read their species profile page. Add a few more Acei as well. Down the road they will get huge, but by then it's likely you'll have a bigger tank....


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## Ramseydog14 (Dec 31, 2013)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Socolofi could work. Just be sure they're 1.5" or larger. Start with at least 8 of them. There seems to be mixed 'reviews' about their temperament, but mbuna don't read their species profile page. Add a few more Acei as well. Down the road they will get huge, but by then it's likely you'll have a bigger tank....


I agree with this. Socolofi with Yellow-Labs and a small group of Acei should do very well. I had one Socolifi that was pretty aggressive,..but maybe because he was the only one in a mainly Demasoni tank. I have 2 Acei, almost fully grown in a 55g and they don't seem too big for the tank at all,..too many of them might, but just a few along with your Y-Labs and Socolofi will be a great mix.


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## Corphish (Jul 8, 2014)

Awesome, that is what I will do then. And yes, I likely will have a bigger tank eventually .


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## bubblesklb (Apr 24, 2014)

Corphish said:


> I felt I was rushing while choosing them, but my bf was showing an interest in fish that I wanted to encourage so I just let him pick some.


I can so relate to this, I bought a new filter so it was the first fish for cycling the tank and he chose a small auratus. It is now about 3'' and the ugliest fish in my tank.. lol :roll:

I had a 20 gallon long tank that I was not using and decided to try it out about six months ago. My 20 gallon today is thriving, I even had a maingano spawn for her first time a couple weeks ago, I also witnessed the spawn  . I find that the tank is much easier to clean than my other bigger aquariums. So even though I have to do more routine water changes I find them more pleasant. I change the rock work during every water change as my fish seem to get bored if I do not change it regularly. 
I had a couple problem fish about two months after I established it and decided to sell them. They were two red zebras and were more aggressive than my demasoni. They created chaos in the tank, it became an all out free for all. After removing them balance was restored.

My current stock is as follows:

1 Demasoni- He is the king of my tank and I prefer him to be the enforcer. He enjoys spending most of his time in rocks I assemble personally for him lol. I spend a lot of time observing my fish, when my demasoni is unhappy everyone knows. He becomes a maniac in the tank if he does not have a preferable spot. It took me a couple weeks to figure this out, but relieved I did.

1 Auratus- He is second in the hierarchy, he mostly spends his time digging but enjoys swimming laps around the tank. Demasoni keeps his aggression to a minimum which I much appreciate. 3''

2 Maingano- I have one male 2.5'' and one female slightly bigger 2.75''. They both enjoy swimming into my filter :-? has anyone else experienced this with mainganos?? They go in and out regularly. 
I have noticed that the male often wants nothing to do with her when she clearly wants to spawn and responds with bouts of aggression. I found this odd and normally would think she is the male but I have seen her carrying eggs. She was unsuccessful with her first batch and after being rejoined with him she began pursuing him immediately. Spawning in a small tank I find is rather hard for them, I believe I just got lucky because of the rock work that week.

2 yellow labs- no issues here and no signs of spawning :thumb: they are about 2.75''

3 F1 white top hara- I placed them in this tank temporarily after my fry tank, we will see how they turn out. I will probably end up transferring them when they get bigger depending on the personality. .75-1''

1 chewere- love this fish, so peaceful. 2''

I also have two tropheus cichlids in there as well, they get along fine with no aggression.

1 Tropheus Cherry Spot - This fish is missing an eye and could not stay with my tropheus tank. He has adjusted as well as a one eyed fish can, although I added him a couple weeks ago, and is still untrusting of most tank mates. 1.5''

1 Tropheus Moorii Kaiser Ikola - He fell sick with bloat and I had to remove him from my tropheus tank. I was luckily able to save him  he is my favorite fish, he has an adorable personality and has adjusted so well to the tank. He is definitely one of the most friendly fish I have, he does not shy away from me during water changes or rock redecorating and is often nibbling on my arm. He was so skinny after bloat from not eating for over a week I thought I was going to lose him :? So glad he made it.  
Unfortunately, after removing him I fear moving him back to my tropheus colony would only get him killed. .75''

I have added them slowly over the past few months allowing my filter time to adjust. So far I have had no water condition problems and everyone is doing great. :dancing:


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Bubbles- all those fish are in a 20 gallon?


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## Burner460 (Jul 24, 2014)

bubblesklb said:


> Corphish said:
> 
> 
> > I felt I was rushing while choosing them, but my bf was showing an interest in fish that I wanted to encourage so I just let him pick some.
> ...


I hope you're keeping those in a 55G at least, and if that's the case, you should do the following ASAP:

1. trade in the Auratus for 2 more yellow labs, and AT LEAST 3 more female Mainganos. Next to the Auratus, these are the most aggressive fish in your tank. Luckily for the females, they are pretty hardy though.
2. get rid of all of the tropheus. They have very specific dietary requirements (veggie, low in protein). They will get bloat which will decimate the rest of your tank if the Auratus doesn't do it first.

The Chewere (if that's a Ps. Elongatus Chewere) will get pretty big and will probably fight with your Demasoni a lot. Chances are the male Maingano will become the king of the tank and keep the peace between those two, but both of these (Dem and Elong) will harass your White tops, which in turn, will never colour up (or die).


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## Burner460 (Jul 24, 2014)

Forgot to mention that i would also get rid of the White tops if i were you.

Small numbers of the same species are bad, because you can't have 2 mbuna of the same type in a tank with less than 18" depth in my experience. Even then, only some species will co-exist relatively peacefully. It's almost better to have 2 males of a milder, smaller type, than a male and a female, because that female will get constantly harrassed. For example, I keep two white top males in a 75G so they can both be coloured up all the time, but they still try to fight every time they see each other, and if it wasn't for my male Maingano keeping the peace most of the time, one of them would be dead.


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## Corphish (Jul 8, 2014)

I apologize if this is off topic, but it's my thread so what the heck  . Just how _do_ cichlids kill one another? I have only lost one and it was an auratus, fine at night, dead in the morning with no marks (eyes were eaten I assume post death) I mean in terms of aggressive fish killing others, is it just the stress of being bullied that kills the victim or is it done physically by blows and bites?


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## Burner460 (Jul 24, 2014)

what they usually do is they will fight each other (including biting), and depending on size and how evenly matched they are, the damage can be significant. The loser usually ends up getting relentlessly chased.

If one fish doesn't want to fight it will usually end up being chased until it dies from stress, or disease caused from stress (this is worse bc it can infect the rest of your fish as well).


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Corphish said:


> is it just the stress of being bullied that kills the victim or is it done physically by blows and bites?


Either or both.


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