# Ich and something else?



## keith.burgoyne (Nov 12, 2009)

My Jack Dempsey has gotten very sick in the past 4 or 5 days. I first noticed spots on him about 4 days back (looked like he had been sprinkled in salt), so I started the "West Texas Style" ich treatment. He looked to be getting worse, so I more or less panicked, bought Super Ich Cure from API (malachite green and nitrofurazone). His tank temperature is about 28C, and it was treated with the first of two doses last night around 9pm. I also added some aquarium salts (only a very little, as part of the earlier treatment).

Today I've noticed cottony looking buildup under his head. Is this the ich breaking off? Or, maybe has he caught something else, like cotton-wool disease? He's in a bad way - the white spots are all over him, and he's gasping. He also seems to have a crust over his eyes. Is there anything else I can do to expedite his recovery? I hate to see him like this.

There are three other fish in the tank, an African cichlid, and two corydoras. I was surprised to learn cories have scales, so I treated at full-strength. They seem fine, as does the African (no visible disease on any).

Pictures follow:


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## keith.burgoyne (Nov 12, 2009)

I'm wondering if the cotton-like stuff I am seeing might be peeling skin. Is that normal when dealing with ich? I see some of the stuff clinging to driftwood in the tank, which I presume he has rubbed against.

24 hours into the first treatment, and I don't see much of an improvement. His tank is now about 29 degrees, as I've covered it with a blanket to avoid stressing him any as people walk by. His lights are also out.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

Looks like columnaris. Increasing the temp will make it worse.

It is difficult to cure ich and a bacterial disease at the same time. What are you treating with?

You're going to need an antibacterial medication. Decrease the temp, perform a large water change, change ich medications from whatever you are using to Kordon Ich Attack, and purchase either SeaChem KanaPlex or Maracyn Two, dosing in conjunction with the Ich Attack. Also, dose with salt, at 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons.


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## keith.burgoyne (Nov 12, 2009)

Hi Kmuda,

Thank you for replying. Columnaris! I hadn't heard of it until now. I am treating him with Super Ick Cure, which apparently has an antibiotic in it (nitrofurazone). I also have maracyn-2 that I can use. Is Kordon a good brand? I don't know if I have seen it before around here. I will look tomorrow.

I have a 15 gallon tank that I can move him into. I'm preparing the water for it now, with the salts as you've recommended. In the meantime, I've lowered the temperature of his tank, and am letting it cool. I'll continue treating the 55, just in case, but I think the 15 might be easier on him.

Thanks again for your reply.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

I recommended Kordon Ich Attack because I know it works well at lower temps and will not cause any interactions with the antibacterial medications. I am not as sure when using the very caustic and toxic chemicals other ich medications contain. While other ich medications can cure ich, when used in conjunction with an antibacterial I would expect your beneficial bacteria to get nuked.


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## keith.burgoyne (Nov 12, 2009)

I wasn't able to find Kordon Ich Attack today when I went out, so I settled on Maracide (there was a surprising lack of ich medications at Pets Unlimited). I also got plenty of Maracyn 1 and 2. I have moved my JD to the 15 gallon hospital tank and medicated him. He seems to be responding positively; he has begun swimming and, for the first time in days, he actually ate something. He still looks like ****, though. I guess I'll have to be patient - he's only been in there for 4 hours.


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## keith.burgoyne (Nov 12, 2009)

I should also point out that I put in the final doseage of the Super Ich Cure for the remaining inhabitants of the 55 gallon tank. None of them seem ill, still. Also, the JD in my hospital tank still seems to have some ich trophonts on him, but far fewer than yesterday.


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## keith.burgoyne (Nov 12, 2009)

I just wanted to report that my JD is doing very, very well. The columnaris is completely gone, and the ich is almost completely eradicated. I noted a single white spot on him today, so I gave one more treatment of maracide after a 20% water change. He will fully recover, and very nearly has. The 55 gallon tank also shows no sign of any infection once the treatment concluded. He has resumed eating out of my hand! I plan to move him from the hospital tank and into the 55 in one week, once I make sure no infection re-emerges.

To recap, I treated with maracide, maracyn, and maracyn-2, and just followed the directions on the bottle (though I've given one more maracide treatment, just to deal with that last stubborn trophont). I also added salt, as per kmuda's instruction.

Thanks, kmuda, for the excellent diagnosis and advice!


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## FlyHigh (Nov 15, 2009)

Great news. Glad to hear it!


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## rein08 (Jul 11, 2010)

I think you should be asking a pro.
You wont risk your Dempsey to that right?
Goodluck


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## keith.burgoyne (Nov 12, 2009)

I decided to leave my jack in the hospital tank for two weeks after he seemed to recover, just to ensure there was no ich resurgence. I kept up regular water changes of that tank to ensure the ammonia and nitrites remain low. The hospital tank is only 15 gallons, so I was anxious to move him back to the 55.

Then he started scratching against the rocks, and stopped eating (we had made so much progress!). He seems to chew his food for a bit, then eventually spits it all out. I've also noticed that all his scratching has, or I assume has, caused this wound on the side of his head (under an inch to the right from his eye). He has a similar wound on the other side of his head, in the same place. It seems to be healing, while this one has worsened.

Is this really from scratching? Or is it something more sinister? A picture of it follows this post.

When I noticed his scratching, I started treating him with Maracide, Maracyn and Maracyn 2, just in case I hadn't fully killed what he had before. It doesn't seem to have helped; the wound remains, and he keeps scratching.

He seems to get stress lines more often than usual now. His colour will appear perfect, and then he'll suddenly look stressed and start scratching. I'm not sure what to make of that. It's been three or four days where he has spewed at least some of whatever he tried to eat. I haven't fed him today, and don't think I will tomorrow, in case he's constipated (though I have seen the scattered turd on the rocks when I vacuum the gravel).

Any help or insight would be hugely appreciated.

rein08: There are unfortunately no fish experts near me. This forum is my only source of diagnosis.

Thanks!


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

Sounds like your fish has come down with Hex.... and possibly flukes. A medication that would work on both is API General Cure, which contains Metronidazole and Praziquantel.

For now, I would label the wound as resulting from scratching.

Before switching meds, perform a full range of water testing to verify no ammonia or nitrite, as these can cause the same symptoms. It is also necessary to perform a good water change and run some carbon on the tank to remove the existing meds before changing to a new set.


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## keith.burgoyne (Nov 12, 2009)

Just wanted to post an update.

I've done as you suggested, kmuda. Thanks again for your advice! I performed a 50% water change, added carbon for an evening, removed it, and added API General Cure. He's now half way through the treatment (about to add the second dosage now). He's still not eating and is still scratching, but we're only half way through - patience is a virtue!

I've been monitoring his water levels in the hospital tank; I'm happy to report nitrites and ammonia are all zero. I imagine the nitrates are also low, since I did that large water change only a couple days ago. That's almost too bad, really - water changes are so much easier for man and fish than medication! I'll post again when the treatment is concluded.


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## keith.burgoyne (Nov 12, 2009)

I'm a little late posting this, but here's the latest update:

I've done the final water change 48 hours after his last dosage of API General Cure. He did consume most of a freeze-dried shrimp just now, but his symptoms remain mostly the same. It looks like he's struggling to swallow; he jerks his head around while he's softening up his food until he either swallows some of it, or spits some of it out. He still scratches a lot, but only in sessions. He seems to go for lengthy periods of time without scratching (though a session can last up to a minute or so).

It looks like the wound on his head has begun to heal slowly. At this point, I'm not sure what the best course of action should be. He hasn't eaten much other than part of that shrimp this past week. I've also been monitoring his water levels, and they too are unchanged (0 ammonia and nitrite).

Any suggestions would be hugely appreciated.


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## keith.burgoyne (Nov 12, 2009)

Hi,

My Jack is still scratching; he probably scratches every ten to fifteen minutes. He's eating, albeit a little modestly compared to his usual habits, and I've found some excrement in his tank while I vacuum the rocks. That's a good sign, but I'm still not sure what to do about his scratching. His water levels are good, and I've been keeping up regular water changes, adding one table spoon of salt per gallon of water that I take out.

He also still seems to have an issue swallowing his food. He softens it, but inevitably spits some of it back out. It takes him a really long time to finish chewing - it can take him several minutes to eat two pellets, when before he'd consume them in seconds.

Happily, the wound on his head has almost fully healed.

Should I attempt another dose of API General Cure? I've read that flukes can gestate for 21 days; I'm wondering if the first set of dosages didn't kill them all (he scratches the sides of his head, so I'm still going on the idea that he has flukes). I can't see anything on his skin.

Thanks!


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

I find that it generally takes three treatments, spaced one week apart, to cure gill flukes. However, when treating specifically for flukes, I prefer to use Hikari PraziPro. So if you have to order additional meds, you may want to go that route.


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