# Leaning fish tank!



## fightingfish (Apr 10, 2008)

My fish tank seems to be leant forward and there is no waight opn the back of the foam towards it has been like this for awhile i think its the carpet close to the wall is making it uneven is there anyway to fix this and add more waight to the back of the tank? i dont like the look of it!


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## remarkosmoc (Oct 19, 2005)

get an L bracket and affix it to a stud in the wall and to the stand such that the stand is level. I would mostly drain the tank before attempting this.


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## fightingfish (Apr 10, 2008)

is it possible to add waight to the back of the stand?


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## remarkosmoc (Oct 19, 2005)

To offset the weight in the tank you would have to add a significant amount of weight to the back of the stand, bracketing it to the wall would be best in my opinion


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## fightingfish (Apr 10, 2008)

ok thanks for the help


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## Boomr99 (Dec 19, 2007)

*NOOOOO !!!*
*DO NOT* try to add weight to the back of the tank or stand. And *DO NOT* try to use brackets to affix it to a stud in the wall. That is TERRIBLE advice.

The tank is leaning forward because the back of the stand is sitting in the tack strip which holds the carpet tight to the wall.
The ONLY *GOOD* way to fix this is to move the whole thing foward off that tack strip. Or shim the front of the tank so it's level with the back.
Adding more weight to the back will do nothing but put more stress on the whole setup. And trying to use an L bracket will do the same, not to mention it's VERY unsafe.

*tannable75*, don't give advice if you don't know what the heck your talking about!


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## remarkosmoc (Oct 19, 2005)

Boomr99 said:


> *NOOOOO !!!*
> 
> *tannable75*, don't give advice if you don't know what the heck your talking about!


First, take it easy we're here to discuss fish not attack each other. Second, his tank would actually need to be against the wall to be on the tack strip; if it is then you are right, but I doubt it is actually sitting on the tac strip that wouldn't leave any room for any filter lines or anything comging out the rear of the tank.. Third, bracketing to the wall is always a good idea it helps prevent kids, dogs, adults from knocking the tank over.

Lastly, fightingfish, how about a picture for better diagnosis?


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## khaki (Jan 12, 2008)

i agree with *tannable75*.

*Boomr99* we are not here to call other names but to give help eachother out.


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## fishyfishyfishy (Dec 24, 2005)

Forget about the looks of it...the bigger concern is the stress it puts on the seams and the increased chance of the front of the tank bursting....


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## fishyfishyfishy (Dec 24, 2005)

Forget about the looks of it...the bigger concern is the stress it puts on the seams and the increased chance of the front of the tank bursting....


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## fightingfish (Apr 10, 2008)

ok ill post some pics in a few mins


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## fightingfish (Apr 10, 2008)

i also would think carpet would be a bit like foam board and exorb the waight


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## fightingfish (Apr 10, 2008)

http://my.mashable.com/photo/user/fightingfishmbuna this link should work all the photos should be on there


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## remarkosmoc (Oct 19, 2005)

I tried to take a look, but photo is set to private according to the mashable website
:roll:


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## fightingfish (Apr 10, 2008)

sorry use the new link above i couldent get the photos on the forum


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## fightingfish (Apr 10, 2008)

i had a close look and the tank is just resting on the foam towards the front of the aquarium


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## remarkosmoc (Oct 19, 2005)

I can't tell from the pictures, with that foot on the stand extending out you might be on the tak strip, to tell for sure feel with your hand and see if there is padding under the carpet the same distance from the wall as the stand sits. If you put a level on the stand how far out of level is it?


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## fightingfish (Apr 10, 2008)

two inches at the most however if i only moved it a couple of centermeters i think it would level out as the stand is just resting a cm on the strip from the look of the lump under the carpet


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## fightingfish (Apr 10, 2008)

the bubbel on the level is just over the line its not to bad i think the tank just has to be moved forward slightly


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## Boomr99 (Dec 19, 2007)

tannable75 said:


> Boomr99 said:
> 
> 
> > *NOOOOO !!!*
> ...


That was not meant as an attack, just trying to warn the OP against bad advice.



khaki said:


> i agree with *tannable75*.
> 
> *Boomr99* we are not here to call other names but to give help eachother out.


Where in my post did I call anybody a name??? I said he gave terrible advice (which he did) and he doesn't know what he's talking about (which is very apparant.)

Obviously the tank is sitting on the tack strip. Moving it off the strip or shimming the front up is the ONLY way to solve this. Using a bracket to attach the stand to the wall is only useful if you have a really tall, unsteady stand, then maybe that would help. His question was about leveling the tank. If you tried to level a tank by pulling the top of the stand towards the wall, it would just lift the front of the stand off the ground, causing a HUGE amount of undue stress on the whole setup, and likely resulting in a catastrophic failure of the stand, the tank or both.

Hopefully this helps the OP with his problem. If I hurt anyones feeling, I appologize. 
I love these forums, but sometimes bad advice is given. I guess that's inevitable.


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## remarkosmoc (Oct 19, 2005)

fightingfish said:


> the bubbel on the level is just over the line its not to bad i think the tank just has to be moved forward slightly


Lets keep everyone happy; shim it and bracket it to the wall 



'Boomer99 said:


> That was not meant as an attack, just trying to warn the OP against bad advice.
> 
> khaki wrote:
> i agree with tannable75.
> ...


Including a secondary reinforcing attack in your apology? This is an open forum and disagreement and debate is awesome; but jeez lets not keep getting personal and insulting. I've been on this forum for years and have never been treated like this. This is a friendly forum (or supposed to be). Boomr I know you've only been on there for a few months but these insults is not the way of this forum.


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## F8LBITEva (Nov 9, 2007)

Thats a really nice tank, I hope it works out for you.


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## Boomr99 (Dec 19, 2007)

> ...but these insults is not the way of this forum.


Neither is giving bad advice and expecting no one to say boo about it. 
I've appologized if you felt insulted. I'm done with this post.
Fightingfish, best of luck with leveling out your tank.


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## remarkosmoc (Oct 19, 2005)

Apparently you missed the part where I said disagreement and debate are good, only insults are bad.



tannable75 said:


> This is an open forum and disagreement and debate is awesome; but jeez lets not keep getting personal and insulting.


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## CichlidWhisperer (Apr 12, 2008)

I have to agree with not using a bracket. It puts stress on the tank. Fish tanks are made such that the stress is supported and this would put tear stress on joints and the glass itself. That is a big issue with the tank leaning in the first place. All that water is putting stress on the front glass plane. It does look like your tank is very close to that wall and I am sure you are right with it being the tack strip being the culprit. If you move the tank forward one inch, you will probably solve the problem. Unfortunatly, you will proabably need to empty quite a bit of the water before attempting this though...

Good Luck..


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## fishyfishyfishy (Dec 24, 2005)

You should be able to move this easily without draining too much water. The amount you do for your water change should be more than enough...and this is just so you don't spill any water from splashing.

I was able to move a friends 72bow out from the wall easily with just a few gallons removed. You'll need 2 people.

Just remove enough water so you can lean the tank/stand forward enough to slide a piece of cardboard underneath the rear corner(s) of the stand. You could do one at a time or both. Once the stand is on a bit of cardboard, there will be less friction and you should be able slide the stand forward a bit from the wall. Sounds a little scary, but it was really easy on the 72..even left all the rock in it when we did it.

It's kind of like those ez glider things you see on tv that make moving furniture easier.


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## fightingfish (Apr 10, 2008)

thanks for all your help ever one next time i do a water change and have someone to help me i will move the tank forward.

PS please dont fight!!!


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## BrianNFlint (Apr 1, 2007)

That tank is close enough to the wall to be sitting on the tack strip. I would shim the front of the stand to get it level, then use brackets to hold it in place.. Both good ideas, if properly implimented.


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## L A R R Y (Feb 15, 2008)

I thought I might chime in...

I had the same problem with my 150 and what I did to fix this was I added adjustable feet to the four corners to the stand. When I bui8lt the stand, I added square steel tubing to give more support for the heavy tank/water/gravel. Now I can make small adjustments since I moved and had to level the tank back out, because now my floors are level as they were not in my previous house.


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## kornphlake (Feb 12, 2004)

CichlidWhisperer said:


> I have to agree with not using a bracket. It puts stress on the tank. Fish tanks are made such that the stress is supported and this would put tear stress on joints and the glass itself. That is a big issue with the tank leaning in the first place. All that water is putting stress on the front glass plane. It does look like your tank is very close to that wall and I am sure you are right with it being the tack strip being the culprit. If you move the tank forward one inch, you will probably solve the problem. Unfortunatly, you will proabably need to empty quite a bit of the water before attempting this though...
> 
> Good Luck..


What is tear stress? In 4 years of engineering coursework and several more years employed as an engineer I've never heard of tear stress. For that matter I don't buy the argument that a fish tank slightly off level is any more prone to failure than one that is perfectly level. If you're going to try and sound like an engineer you better be able to back up your analysis with some references or show your own calculations that helped you arrive at this conclusion.

I suggest leaving the tank as it is. I've had tanks that are slightly off level for years without any problems, including a flat back hex that should be one of the weakest aquarium shapes. I have had to reseal the tank because the 25 year old silicone started to pull away from the seams, but I have never had a catastrophic failure.


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## CichlidWhisperer (Apr 12, 2008)

For the rest of the people, I was referring to the stress that would be on the tank due to tear force.

As for kornphlake, I do not wish to escalate this any further, and do not think it is some sort of contest. But, I must ask: what degree in engineering do you have? As for me, I have a very strong background in both physics and mechanical engineering.

I really wish people on this site would not be so nasty. It is fine to disagree, or ask questions, but there is no need to act as if you are better than others or put them down without knowing anything about them. I think it must be they need to inflate their ego somehow and online is the only way to get anyone to listen... In any case, I find it very disgusting that people would act this way and it is really making me (and others) reconsider being part of this site. I am sure after reading things like this, people hold back from posting. It's a shame!


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## remarkosmoc (Oct 19, 2005)

CichlidWhisperer said:


> I really wish people on this site would not be so nasty. It is fine to disagree, or ask questions, but there is no need to act as if you are better than others or put them down without knowing anything about them. I think it must be they need to inflate their ego somehow and online is the only way to get anyone to listen... In any case, I find it very disgusting that people would act this way and it is really making me (and others) reconsider being part of this site. I am sure after reading things like this, people hold back from posting. It's a shame!


AMEN


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## kornphlake (Feb 12, 2004)

*CichlidWhisperer* I'm not trying to be nasty, I'm just trying to get to the bottom of a myth that has been floating around for years that doesn't make much sense to me. Pressure in an aquarium is related to the depth only, the angle of the tank won't change the amount or direction of the force on the glass, the force is always the same given the same depth no matter what angle the tank is at, there really isn't a direction associated, at best it could be described as perpendicular to the surface of the container which remains constant no matter what the angle of the tank is. I have trouble understanding how a slight slope would affect the amount of stress on a tank, an aquarium is designed to hold water with some safety factor when the water is level with the top of the aquarium, if the tank is unlevel you limit the possible depth to some value less than the depth of a perfectly level tank. A leaning tank sees less pressure than a tank that is perfectly level and filled to within a drop of overflowing because the depth of the water is less which is directly related to the amount of pressure on the glass and seams. There is always a pressure gradient on the vertical seams of the tank, tilting the tank will not change that at all, the pressure gradient is something that silicone joints seem to handle well enough regardless of how level the tank is.

I won't say that I'm a PHD in hydrostatics and I accept that there may be something I've overlooked which is why I question your suggestion of tear force. That's a term that I've never heard, what exactly do you mean by tear force, is there some text you can reference that describes tear force? I have a BS in Manufacturing Engineering, which isn't to say that I've designed fluid storage containers built from glass panels joined with a silicone adhesive, but I do have a background engineering. It is very possible that tear stress is related to a field of engineering and physics I've never been exposed to, I'm giving you the opportunity to educate a skeptic.

Other forums I've visited (not related to aquaria) have had some pretty in depth engineering discussions that have really elevated the general understanding of the community and in many cases put to rest some of the reoccuring questions. This forum is great, but it lacks some of the sophistocation and critcal reasoning I've seen elsewhere. I see a lot of bandwagon posts from people who really don't understand what or why they are answering rather they repeat the common answer to a question rather right or wrong. I question the common answers, overkill for the sake of overkill isn't helping anyone out, an engineered solution with a conservative safety factor saves time and money without sacrificing integrity, why would anyone settle for overkill when there isn't any benefit?


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## CichlidWhisperer (Apr 12, 2008)

First of all, my apology for mispelling tare force as tear force. I just googled it to try and find a definition for you and suddenly realized my mistake. I hope this clarifies it some.

When I think about the stresses on the tank though, there are two issues I am considering. One is the pressures and forces on the glass and the other is the pressures and forces on the joints.

As for the glass, I think it is a material science issue and am hoping there is somewhere here who is a material scientist and can answer this better. But glass is wierd and therefore behaves differently. 
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/G ... glass.html
I simply do not know the details to explain this further, but if memory serves me correctly, forces in different directions on glass can be an issue.

As for the joints, they are manufactured to have pressures in certain directions, but not others. Once again, I am hoping someone here can explain this better, especially without the assistance of paper and pen to draw it out.

Perpedicular and head on forces tend to be better tolerated in general.

I am truly at a loss for explaining my thoughts better. I am hoping maybe someone else can explain it better. Is there a physics teacher (hopefully knows both the science and is able to teach it) around??? If so, please help!

I will do more research to try and explain my thoughts better, but don't have the time right this second.

Kornphlake, please let me know if this is making any more sense.. I suspect the spelling may have been the biggest issue.


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## nick a (Apr 9, 2004)

Unfortunately, I can't get the OPs pics to load for me so I can't tell if his stand was a four legged or a flat style bottom.--????--- The significance of that distinction IMHO is this:

If 4 legged (i.e. designed to carry the load side to side/front to back to each corner) then Korn's posit is valid. All loading on the glass, all loading from glass to stand and all loading stand to floor is essentially identical at a slightly off-optimum angle (non-perpendicular).

If flat bottomed (i.e. designed for complete perimeter support) then CW's posit may have some merit (possibly not for the same reasons--'cause i'm not sure i know where you were going absolutely). I'm not sure what size tank it was; the front-to-back dim being the critical issue. Sitting on a carpet tack strip along the back side of the stand would cause the front-to-back section to be an unsupported (or less than designed) span. Concievably, that could be considered an issue that many folks would worry about.

I've learned over the years that


> overkill for the sake of overkill


 is often necessary early on, but as we gain confidence; both in ourselves and in our equipment, then the need for it passes.
Note the lack of front to back supports on these 125's--they're filled with rocks and water & I'm filled with confidence that my tanks will not disintigrate because of it.


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## kornphlake (Feb 12, 2004)

Tare stress is just as unfamiliar as tear stress, a quick google search only came up with references to internal stresses in the microstructure of semiconductors and some stuff about cartilage, you may be comparing silicone to cartilage but I'm not able to find a real good definition of what tare stress is.

Breaking down the components of an aquarium I'm seeing shear stresses and tensile stresses on the joints, there is a bending stress on the glass, but that should be handled by the tank bottom, the top brace and thickness of the glass.

Let's use the tank in this thread as an example, where would it fail as a result of leaning forward, would the front pane of glass seperate from the sides? Does the bottom crack? Are we concerned about the stand buckling? I'm just not understanding what the failure mode is, by my reasoning the depth of the water in the tank is the only thing that can increase the stress on the tank, tilting the tank doesn't change the height of the water above a joint and can not increase the stress. If the tank was designed to hold water perfectly level it should hold water if it's got 1" rise over 18", there may be some stability concerns, but as far as the tank holding water I don't think there is an issue.


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## bentcountershaft (Nov 23, 2007)

While I have no expertise in engineering I do have an opinion. I think the main concern with a tank is not necessarily how level it is, but if it is sitting completely flush with the surface of the stand. I see a stand that isn't level (whether it's front to back or side to side) as a prime candidate for it not being level in either way. Say for example the stand is sitting on the tack strip on the back side. On the left side corner, the stand is overlapping the tack strip by 3mm. On the right back corner it's overlapping by 6mm. This would cause the tank to not only be out of level from front to back, but also side to side ever so slightly. I would think that this would cause a slight twist of the stand. This, depending on what the stand is made out of and the extent of binding/twisting, could cause the tank to not be distributing it's weight equally around the stand. This would only occur if the tank is suffering from the four legged wobble (like a cheap restaurant chair that has a slightly shorter leg). The wobble may not be enough to be seen or felt by hand, but it may well be there. This slight wobble would certainly have a detrimental effect on integrity of the tank, I would think. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case with the original poster's tank, just that it's possible. I'd also like to point out that if a tank is out of level from front to back but the side to side is perfect, or vice versa, then this wouldn't be an issue at all. I'm not posting this to support anyone's theory or discount any either, I'm merely hoping to find out if I'm right or not.


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## D-007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Skipping through the technical/engineering stuff, did the OP (*fightingfish*) find a solution?


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## Joels fish (Nov 17, 2007)

From what I can see , it looks to me like it may in fact be the foam under the tank starting to colapse and letting the tank lean forward a bit . Also the stand looks a little close to the wall there. I would drain the tank and then remove the foam( I'm not sure why you have it there, and I can't see why you would need it) and then move the stand out from the wall a couple of inches . If that doesn't do the trick, then use some shims under the front of the stand to level the tank.


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## LJ (Sep 12, 2007)

> I've had tanks that are slightly off level for years without any problems


Same here.



> I would drain the tank and then remove the foam


I agree. I don't like the idea of the foam under there personally. If it's not the foam causing the lean then it's surely the tack strip. I think safety wise you'll be fine either way, but a leaning tank doesn't look as good as a level tank. Move the stand off the tack strip and you'll solve the problem. I have a leaning tank right now (tack strip), and I plan to move it whenever I feel ambitious.


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## fightingfish (Apr 10, 2008)

foam is ment to help equal out waight aint it?


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## nick a (Apr 9, 2004)

Foam crushes==not a load bearing material==it equalizes nothing with regards to weight. It is absolutely not required (and in some cases detrimental) to perimeter trimmed all glass tanks. It is very useful with flat bottomed acrylic style tanks--the purpose there is not load bearing but cushioning. It should be relatively easy to make the few square inches of contact surface between the perimeter rim and the stand on an all glass style FLAT. The foam under acrylic is to cushion any FLATNESS imperfections of the many square inches of contact surface with that style.

HTHs


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## fightingfish (Apr 10, 2008)

Good news every one!!! the tank is level i moved it forward today and it looks great thank you so much for all your help and ideas! it turned out the tank was on the tack strip as suspected. :thumb:


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## DemasoniLover (May 13, 2008)

I'm just wondering... but in all this discussion I' never once saw any mention of going to the hardware store and just purchasing some shims? Just seemed obvious to me I guess? Done it plenty of times! atleast the whole tack strip thing was the culprit! Good call!


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