# Large RDs and small pictus cats - will it work?



## cholile (Oct 28, 2007)

I have a 95G bowfront (48" x 14/18" x 26"). I have a RD pair that I bought from a breeder who said this pair plays nicely with one another. The male is around 7.5" and the female is about 5.5"

I also bought a half dozen pictus catfish. They are around 3" at the moment.

So my question is can I put the catfish in the main tank now?

On the one hand I could see this making more sense so that the RDs get used to them while the catfish are too small to be viewed as a threat and then the RDs get used to them.

On the other hand, of course, maybe they're so small that the RDs would try to eat them? If so, how long will I be waiting for the pictus to reach a size where they can go in the tank? They're currently in a 15G tank so they can't stay there forever.


----------



## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

Pictus catfish are not a good fish to keep with a pair of red devils, in a tank that is too small for a pair of red devils. I wouldn't add them at all.


----------



## cholile (Oct 28, 2007)

Why do you think the tank is too small? I spoke to many others who said that as long as it is a mature pair or a more docile RD then a pair can work. It is also from these folks who have kept CA/SA cichlids for quite some time that I got the suggestion of using pictus catfish.

I'm always interested in additional perspectives. You are the first person to tell me that these catfish should not be kept with a pair or RDs or that my tank is too small for _any _pair or RDs.


----------



## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

Any 48" long tank is too small for a pair of red devils. Even "docile" pairs are still aggressive, they're just less aggressive than some others. A pair of devils shouldn't be even tried, IMO, in anything less than a 6ft. long tank. Really, a solo male in that tank is pushing it; I wouldn't try it in anything much smaller.

As for the pictus catfish, I think they'll just end up as food for the devils. They're not super fast swimmers, and don't have a lot of defenses against a big angry powerful fish that wants to kill it. They might be okay, but just be prepared to see them start being picked off, because it's a definite possibility.

And if it matters, I've been obsessively keeping cichlids for 19 years, with an emphasis on big aggressive Central Americans - particularly midas/RDs who have long been my favorite species


----------



## cholile (Oct 28, 2007)

Thanks. Your experience does matter. I've just had african cichlids for about 5 years and am just now venturing into SA/CA. Everyone told me a single RD in a tank this size is very generous and would work extremely well. So maybe you're just more cautious than most?

Anyway, if you had to try a broup of a half dozen or so active bottom dwellers with the RD what would it be?

And, if you had the tank of my dimensions and wanted a half dozen or more active bottom dwellers and an attractive trio that had a good personality (obviously less aggressive than RD) what would it be?


----------



## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

People who told you the tank was very generous for a solo RD may have just been taking the gallons into consideration - 95gal - instead of the actual footprint, which is what really matters. Keep in mind that male devils can reach 12"+ as adults. 4ft. of room when you're that size is bare minimum. I have my adult male midas - who is 14" now - in a 5ft, 120gal tank. He makes it look SMALL. There is absolutely no way I'd keep him in anything smaller. He COULD fit in a 4ft tank, but that doesn't mean it would be a "generous" home for him.

I wouldn't try bottom dwellers. The only thing I'd ever consider is a large pleco, since they're fairly well armoured - but if you check the recent threads there was someone who is trying to add a pleco to his devil tank, and the devil keeps killing them.

You're looking at having a trio of fish in your tank, not just a pair of something?


----------



## lostnight (Jun 3, 2006)

Yeah, the pictus cats do have very pointy fins, they often get stuck in nets when you try to catch them. This helps protect them from getting swallowed by bigger fish. But other than that, they are rather exposed, I've had cichlids do some gruesome things to pictus cats back in the 1980s, and I haven't kept them since.


----------



## cholile (Oct 28, 2007)

SinisterKisses said:


> People who told you the tank was very generous for a solo RD may have just been taking the gallons into consideration - 95gal - instead of the actual footprint, which is what really matters. Keep in mind that male devils can reach 12"+ as adults. 4ft. of room when you're that size is bare minimum. I have my adult male midas - who is 14" now - in a 5ft, 120gal tank. He makes it look SMALL. There is absolutely no way I'd keep him in anything smaller. He COULD fit in a 4ft tank, but that doesn't mean it would be a "generous" home for him.
> 
> I wouldn't try bottom dwellers. The only thing I'd ever consider is a large pleco, since they're fairly well armoured - but if you check the recent threads there was someone who is trying to add a pleco to his devil tank, and the devil keeps killing them.
> 
> You're looking at having a trio of fish in your tank, not just a pair of something?


If the RD reached 12" then yea, I could see 48" being small. But from what I've read most bred in and kept in tanks tend to reach 10" max.

I am definitely aware that RDs can be vicious, but from what I have read and from what people have told me they have extremely varying personalities and some can be fairly tame (though when spawning all bets are off). I have no interest in a large pleco that just sits there and poops 

I think if the RD experiment ends in disappointment, which I realize is a possibility, then all things equal I'd like a trio + bottom dwellers. But all things may not be equal and the best possible large SA/CA fish that are attractive and engaging may necessitate a pair.


----------



## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

No, 12" is the average size for a fully grown male RD/midas. Like I said, my adult male is 14", and I also have a subadult male who is already at least 10-11" and he's not done growing.

Again, "fairly tame" is compared to hyper-aggressive devils. Even "tame" males are still quite aggressive, _especially_ with a female in the tank, which you say you're planning to have. They're not "tame" like a jack dempsey. And the aggression increases as the size of the tank decreases.


----------



## cholile (Oct 28, 2007)

To clarify, not planning to have. Already have. I have the pair in the tank and, at least so far, all is well. My question was when to add the pictus catfish, but your response led the thread in a different direction, which is, of course, fine.


----------



## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

Sorry, have. Throw them in now, it won't make a difference and you seem pretty sure of what you're doing.


----------



## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Pictus cats with aggressive CA? I've seen it in other people's tanks, so it may have worked out for a few people(?). There not a very tough or sturdy fish. Tried it many times over the years and none lasted very long. I've had all kinds of bottom feeders thrive with RD and other aggressive CA/SA/Africans but never a pictus cat. A raphael cat is usually pretty industructible. A common pleco is one of the sturdiest. A bristle nose pleco usually works out. Had various kinds of catfish, most of which i can't remember what they were called, icluding a few Synodontis species.

But that's in tanks with numerous cichlids. With just a pair, there is a lot less to keep them occupied. Generally, expect that a pair will focus more attention on bottom feeders, when there are no other cichlids in the tank.


----------



## cholile (Oct 28, 2007)

So if and when this all fails, what, if any, trio/pair of SA/CA that is attractive and interesting, can I put in the tank with a half-dozen bottom dwellers that are active such as the pictus catifsh?


----------



## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

cholile said:


> what, if any, trio/pair of SA/CA that is attractive and interesting, can I put in the tank with a half-dozen bottom dwellers that are active such as the pictus catifsh?


Archoecentrus multispinosus,rainbow cichlid, IME, is not too aggressive towards anything. A breeding pair is a pretty good bet to co-exist with pictus cats in a 95 gal.

Andinoacara pulcher, blue acara, IME breeding pairs are not too aggressive, and not too demanding of space.

Mesonauta festivum, IME is not very aggressive. Though I have never bred this fish, so i really can't say what a breeding pair would be like.

There is always some risk whith housing tankmates with a breeding pair of CA/SA.....certainly more risk with the larger, more aggressive species such as RD/midas. I would tend to think that less aggressive species of Cryptoheros, such as C. sajica or C. sp. 'hondurean red point' would have a much better chance of co-existing with pictus cats then a breeding pair of RD/midas....though i have never done so myself. Possibly exCichlasoma bocourti(?) since it is generally considered to be one of the least aggressive of the large CA.


----------



## cholile (Oct 28, 2007)

very helpful. thank you! and what about the reverse? if I keep the RD is there any bottom dweller, even if it is a single larger species, that I can keep with the RD that is at least somewhat interesting (e.g. not just a large common pleco that has no color, doesn't move at all, and just makes a mess or the raphael catfish, which, from what i've read, will be hiding almost all the time)


----------



## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

I would be concerned with the pictus being swallowed and lodging in the RD's throat. I lost a Large GT this way and an oscar before I decided that I would not try the combination again. I kick myself now for not learning the first time. They were some cool fish I lost to my own foolish attempts at pushing the limits.


----------



## cholile (Oct 28, 2007)

right. message received.

now, instead, i am looking for any bottom dweller, even if it is a single larger species, that I can keep with the RD that is at least somewhat interesting (e.g. not just a large common pleco that has no color, doesn't move at all, and just makes a mess or the raphael catfish, which, from what i've read, will be hiding almost all the time)


----------

