# To create a hybrid or not?



## JWhipple (Jun 20, 2007)

My female black belt vieja is making her first spawning pit.

The only confirmed male vieja that I have is my male pink vieja fenestratus.

I want to hear everyone's thoughts on trying to cross-breed the two?


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## MacFish (Jan 4, 2006)

Depends what you are going to do with them. If there is any chance they will make it out to the public who have no idea what they are, I say no.

If you are just going to grow the fry for your enjoyment or for food, go for it :wink:

The problem is if they turn out really cool looking and your friends ask for some. Maybe you can make sure none will make it to market but who is to say your friends will be so careful?


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## FLYFISH509 (Dec 11, 2005)

WHY??

Just to see what you can create? There's enough hybridination going on. Hybrids shouldn't be created in the aquarium, if it happens in nature fine, survival of the fitest will prevail. Just my opinion, do what you want but, I don't think we need another killer bee or anything else humans can be the cause of. Be happy with what you have.


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

And if you do make them and your friends get them and give them to other hobbyists then it could be a major problem they could...um... well they might...Wait In don't see the problem at all.

If others don't know what they are then they probably don't care if it's a hybrid. It's not like we will ever reintroduce our weak aquarium fish into the wild, assuming that we are at all responsible.

If you don't want hybrids don't buy them but unless we are being cruel to the fish in question by stunting/binding/cutting them in some way then what is the issue?

Just my opinion. Insert 74 pages of arguing here.... :lol:


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## MacFish (Jan 4, 2006)

> If others don't know what they are then they probably don't care if it's a hybrid.


Thats exactly the point. They don't know and/or don't care. If they then pair them back up with a Black Belt and sell those, we could easily have another Trimac, Red Devil, or Midas situation. If people aren't careful, it could get as hard to find a true Black Belt or fenestratus as it is to find any of them.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

If youâ€™re a simple guy keeping fish as a hobby with no interest in breeding and selling/trading fryâ€¦ then I see no harm what so ever in having a mixed species pair in your tank that spawn and create food for other fish in the tank (or other tanks)â€¦

I do agree that it is best to not let any of the hybrid offspring out of your possession.

As mentioned, there are several species of Cichlids that in the aquarium trade we have to almost assume all aquarium bred fish are hybrid unless they can be traced back to the wild (usually 2~3 generations at best). The Veijas are a closely related family and most hybridize easily. Each also has distinct characteristics. Allowing them to free range hybridize may allow them to wash out into one similar fish.

Many view hybridizing as â€œcreating something newâ€


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## JWhipple (Jun 20, 2007)

Great commentary !!! Keep the thoughts coming!


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

For those of us that want quality pure fish F1's are available from numerous breeders including the previusly mentioned Trimacs, Midas, and Red Devils.

For those of us who geek out on this stuff we know where to get them. For the average Joe who wants a fish tank with a sunken ship and a skeleton that swigs off a rum bottle when the bubbles blow it doesn't matter.

Ones not more right than the other it's just opinion.


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## JWhipple (Jun 20, 2007)

What would I do with the fish? Honestly? I would probably keep a number of them...

The rest I would offer to anyone who wants them - making 10,000% sure they knew good and well what they were getting.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

JWhipple said:


> The rest I would offer to anyone who wants them - making 10,000% sure they knew good and well what they were getting.


But what happens when you give a biddy a 'pair' of them... and he gets fry... and he takes them to a store and says they are Black Belts...

So now you are creating the opportunity for inbred hybrids to be passed as a quality pure bred fish...

I would feel cheated if I bought that inbred hybrid when I was told it was pure bred... I would feel you created the opportunity for me to be cheated and I would blame you... the guy who knew the risk he was taking and took it anyway... at my expense...

Just an angle to consider it from...


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## JWhipple (Jun 20, 2007)

I've taken hybrid fish to the pet stores around here in the past - used to have a few mixed africans that liked to interbreed, and thankfully since I gave them to the store, they sold them as "Misc mixed-breed african cichlids"...

Lets just say that they sold more than they lost to the typical pet store aquarium death syndrome!

Around here most folks tend to not mind a mixed breed if they can get them for cheap and they are interesting looking. These particular ones sold for $1.59 each as opposed to $3.99 each for the pure bred ones.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Sounds like you knew the answer to your question before you ever asked it...


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## JWhipple (Jun 20, 2007)

Not really... I've been questioning whether or not to do it AGAIN.

Really though - keep the comments coming - this has given me a lot of food for thought.


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## Voodoo Chilli (Jun 29, 2004)

Many cichlids are becoming threatened in nature and it may very well be the case that us hobbyists will one day have the only living specimens available. With this in mind, why waste the tank space on creating mutts, when that tank could be used for preserving a species for future generations to enjoy and/or possibly be used to reintroduce to the wild?


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## FLYFISH509 (Dec 11, 2005)

> JWhipple said:
> 
> 
> > I've taken hybrid fish to the pet stores around here in the past - used to have a few mixed africans that liked to interbreed, and thankfully since I gave them to the store, they sold them as "Misc mixed-breed african cichlids"...
> ...


I don't care if you paid the LFS, gave them away, or sold them! Many of the people in these corp. pet chains haven't got a clue. Look at all the posts where someone bought a fish as whatever and than finally realize what they thought they were sold is the mutt you may have given and you don't see a problem with this?

Man, if you want to cross breed your fish, knock your socks off, grow them out, use them for feeders but, when you even say and seem to say it with pride that you give your mutts away and think it's OK because people don't mind buying a fish for $1.59 insted of the regular price for a pure bred. They can buy a beautiful Sword Tail, anything. I don't know, I just can't see how some think this is just fine.

Believe me, I'm not mad at anyone who thinks it's a good thing, there's nothing anyone can do. I just have my opinions and hopefully some will understand and say yea, I'll have free food.


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## JWhipple (Jun 20, 2007)

opcorn: Wow a little drama!


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

Voodoo Chilli said:


> Many cichlids are becoming threatened in nature and it may very well be the case that us hobbyists will one day have the only living specimens available. With this in mind, why waste the tank space on creating mutts, when that tank could be used for preserving a species for future generations to enjoy and/or possibly be used to reintroduce to the wild?


Really we are going to introduce our inbred weak aquarium fish into the wild?
How many people breed brothers and sisters from the same spawn together?
If this ever does happen they are going to go to quality breeders like Rapps and Davis not every Joe with an aquarium. If being a high quality breeder is your thing go for it. Some people enjoy this hobby on a lot less serious level.

How many more posts until we get back into the dog arguments? :lol:


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## Voodoo Chilli (Jun 29, 2004)

chrispyweld said:


> Voodoo Chilli said:
> 
> 
> > Many cichlids are becoming threatened in nature and it may very well be the case that us hobbyists will one day have the only living specimens available. With this in mind, why waste the tank space on creating mutts, when that tank could be used for preserving a species for future generations to enjoy and/or possibly be used to reintroduce to the wild?
> ...


If "they" go to quality breeders and _only_ quality breeders, won't this small population be akin to the inbreeding you mention? A relatively small amount of fish from only a few sources will mean a much smaller gene pool to begin with.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

chrispyweld said:


> Some people enjoy this hobby on a lot less serious level.


...and if your just not seriously enough into breeding to do it right... then don't be be a distributor...

You can't say "I'm not into it so I'm not going to be responsible... but I am still going to make a few bucks with it on the side"... That is very bad business...


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## MetalHead06351 (Oct 3, 2007)

I would think that if fish were going to be reintroduced into the wild, wouldn't the people doing the introductions (i'm assuming government) would somehow inspect the breeders for genetic purity? Honestly there are so many hybrid fish out there already that there really is no way our hobby is going to restock the wild populations on our level. I would be blown away if I got a call from the mexican goverment saying they desperetly need my jack dempsey for a breeding program. I'd also be willing to beleive that all of you against a little harmless HOME experiment have hybrids in your tank and don't even know it. Does anyone really have pure red devils, or trimacs, and good luck buying any convict that is not wild or f1 that doesn't have something else in it.
I say harmless home experiment on the idea that these hybrids aren't released on to an unsupecting public. Not meaning you have a buddy who really wants one of your hybrids, I don't see the horror in it. It wouldn't be any different for him to go and buy a flowerhorn, or red texas or something. But if you sold sy a convict/hrp knowingly as a convict to an lfs or something, thats a different story.


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## Voodoo Chilli (Jun 29, 2004)

How can they not be released on an unsuspecting public? Are you telling me a person can tend to literally tens of thousands of potential fry? That a person can give fish to a friend or family member and they'll swear to never let any out of their home? Give me a break.

I can't believe the general apathy and irresponsibility I've seen in these forums lately. People saying it's a waste of time to be concerned with species conservation issues?! People encouraging others to conduct "experiments" on fish?!

As far as having hybrids in my tanks and not knowing it? Not a chance. I by my fish from reputable breeders, ACA members, and so on. "You get what you pay for", and all that jazz.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

I always find it very odd that african cichlid keepers, while obviously keeping inferior cichlids, seem to automatically know that hybrids are inherantly wrong and gasp in horror at them while those of use that keep SA/CA, which are obviously the superior cichlids, seem to think hybrids are neat.

**slaps two pennies on the bar**

I agree the dog arguement is old and tired, and not even realivant so won't go there. I look at it like this instead. Yes you can put your hand into a fire and snatch it back fast enough not to be burned. It might even be fun. But it's not responsible. Even if nobody gets hurt by it, that doesn't mean it's not irresonisble. Doing it and not knowing a small cichlid is watching usually ends up with a burned child hand when they try it.

Okay, odd anology. But new fishkeepers are seeing hybrids as normal and common, and that is what is irresponsible of us. With few exceptions (lake vic haps, madagascar, Amph. lyonsi) yes most cichlids aren't in too much trouble in the wild. Yet becuase hybrids seem to be normal, people are using lyonsi as flowerhorn breeder. This is one particular case when we very well could bred a species out of existance since it is very rare in the wild, has a tiny natural range, and that is being polluted very quickly. But becuase of the popularity of flowerhorns and fake parrots, people don't see crossing these rare cichlids as wrong. It's differant with say blackbelts that are common throughout their natural range, the problem is newcomers don't know the differance and that is where the irresonpsibility comes into this.

Much like Piranha being illegal in this state. It's not becuase they could live in our waters, they are too cold for that to happen for more than a month or two during summer. The reason is becuase some irresponsible fishkeeper dumped a red bellied pacu into one of the most popular lakes in Seattle during the summer that was caught on rod and reel. And bam, no more piranha. Unrelated to hybrids? Maybe, the core issue is still being responsible. No differant to me than buying a red tailed catfish for your 55 gallon with no plans to upgrade. To me all 3 things are related, though I know most would disagree.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

â€¦if I do have hybrids in my tanks and donâ€™t know itâ€¦ this is the result of people creating hybrids and passing them on to the general public unknowinglyâ€¦ and this is one of the biggest reasons I opposed the creation of hybrids in the first placeâ€¦

â€¦and MetalHead is right, it is rare to find a pure Trimac or Red Devilâ€¦ which really really sucksâ€¦ and why is it hard to find them? Because previous hobbyists created hybrids of them and passed them on to the public unknowinglyâ€¦

One can pretend they are going to be responsibleâ€¦ but any hybrids that are created and let out of your tanks are out of your controlâ€¦ and therefore you are putting the public at risk of being cheatedâ€¦

If your going to be a hobbyistâ€¦ be a hobbyist and do what hobbyists doâ€¦ enjoy your fishâ€¦

If your going to be a breeder/distributor do what breeder/distributors are supposed to doâ€¦ and breed pure bred superior fishâ€¦

Itâ€™s when someone wants the benefit of one but is only willing to accept the responsibility of the otherâ€¦ that things get screwed upâ€¦


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## Voodoo Chilli (Jun 29, 2004)

To say that many cichlids aren't (or couldn't easily become so) in danger in the wild is grossly inaccurate. While the Nile perch is cleaning out Lake Victoria, we humans are busy taking a toll on the natural environments of many, many others.

I guess people think I'm silly for being concerned about this, but to me this is much more than a whim to keep fish in a glass box. While I'm enjoying my fish in my home, I'd like to think I could maybe have an affect on whether or not a species of fish becomes extinct one day.


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## xalow (May 10, 2007)

I once bought five yellow lab cichlids. I did careful research, and learned that these fish are commonly hybridized and that only the pure strains show the black markings. So I get five with the black markings and they breed and I now have 9 fry of varying sizes and also of varying markings which show that the parents were not exactly "pure".

If I had wanted pure yellow labs I would have had to find a reputable breeder and pay a premium for having a pure breed fish, much like the premium people pay for wild caught. This price premium exists because of the higher supply of hybrids in the hobby with some such species and also because of the desire of people to have pure species.

What are the chances of hobbyist hybrids returning into the wild to dilute the natural genetic stock?

Can we really expect casual hobbyists to be the vanguard of species preservation?

dwarfpike wrote "With few exceptions (lake vic haps, madagascar, Amph. lyonsi) yes most cichlids aren't in too much trouble in the wild" when I searched http://www.iucnredlist.org/ for cichlid Species, that are either threatened extinct, extinct in the wild, endangered, criticaly endangered, or vulnerable I got 158 results. Fish base lists there being 1300 species so thats around 12% so like you said most cichlids (less than 50%) aren't in too much trouble.

Hybrids are more a conern in the fish hobby as an issue of market ethics than they are in ecological ethics. Any good hobbyist is all ready making sure none of their fish never end up back into the wild. I think its laudible that some people take the extra effort to ensure that if some species in the wild went extinct that they would have a pure population with all the requisite records about husbandry.

I will end this post on this final ideathis may be boring)
When hybrids are put onto the market they create what is often a cheaper alternative to pure species. People new to the hobby face assymetric information when buying, they are faced with cheap alternatives to purebreeds. Those who want a pure species have to pay more for it just as someone who really want a book will buy it before it come sout on paper back and ends up paying more for it. As a large quantity of fish keepers don't even know about cycling, it is safe to assume that the quantity of pure breed fish compared to hybrids that the market will support is very low. This makes more discriminating hobbyists feel that their species are dissapearing and the higher price that they pay also decreases the availability of pure breeds.


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## MetalHead06351 (Oct 3, 2007)

> How can they not be released on an unsuspecting public? Are you telling me a person can tend to literally tens of thousands of potential fry? That a person can give fish to a friend or family member and they'll swear to never let any out of their home? Give me a break.


i rebute that with:


> say harmless home experiment on the idea that these hybrids aren't released on to an unsupecting public.


by unsuspecting, I meant people who don't know the fish they are buying are hybrids. Another point, not too relevant but it is a little, most people don't give or sell fish to pet stores.


> As far as having hybrids in my tanks and not knowing it? Not a chance. I by my fish from reputable breeders, ACA members, and so on. "You get what you pay for", and all that jazz.


Did you get papers with these fish? How do you know for sure that they aren't hybrids, even just a small amount of another species in it? The guy who sold them to you said so? I'm sure theres no chance that that person could have bad information.


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## MetalHead06351 (Oct 3, 2007)

I found this on another website, I think its a good read, full of good points:


> My Dearest Chuckles,
> 
> Some time ago I was rather flattered when you asked me to comment on the blood parrot fish for the NJAS "Reporter". Perversely eager to see my name associated with the NJAS in a manner other than on a T-shirt, I obliged with my usual insightful commentary. You responded by severely editing my compelling discourse on the subject. Obviously, I didn't allow this to impact negatively on our relationship as I sorta got my way. I got off the T-shirt (?) and into "The Reporter".
> 
> ...


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## crotalusfan (Jun 21, 2008)

allow them to breed and then send all the fry to me. I have a Parachromis loisellei and a P. managuensis (in seperate tanks to prevent breeding) who would love a little snack.  opcorn:


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

Voodoo Chilli said:


> How can they not be released on an unsuspecting public? Are you telling me a person can tend to literally tens of thousands of potential fry? That a person can give fish to a friend or family member and they'll swear to never let any out of their home? Give me a break.


I don't think they are unsuspecting I think the majority don't care



> I can't believe the general apathy and irresponsibility I've seen in these forums lately. People saying it's a waste of time to be concerned with species conservation issues?! People encouraging others to conduct "experiments" on fish?!


To say that an aquarium hobbyist not being concerned with hybrids is not concerned about environmental/species conservation is insulting. It's like the PETA folks saying that people who support farming are akin to people who supported the Holocaust.



> As far as having hybrids in my tanks and not knowing it? Not a chance. I by my fish from reputable breeders, ACA members, and so on. "You get what you pay for", and all that jazz.


Some folks are not concerned "with all that jazz" and can get enjoyable fish for less and those concerned with this have the ability to "pay" for them. So where is the issue?


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## darthodo (Aug 27, 2005)

Just to clarify something. Many of the fish from the reputable breeders are from breeding brothers and sisters of the same spawn. Actually, many of the purists won't even breed the same species across collection locations. Inbreeding is inevitable and commonly done in fish, but not as dangerous as with dogs or cats.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

id say try it out and see what comes of it, but make 10,000000000000000% sure that the people know they were buying hybrids, OR, a better route would be only keep the ones you want and cull the rest.

dont get me wrong, i love hybrids, considering my favorite fish are flowerhorns, but people need to know they are buying hybrids! as said many times earlier.


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## MetalHead06351 (Oct 3, 2007)

> allow them to breed and then send all the fry to me. I have a Parachromis loisellei and a P. managuensis (in seperate tanks to prevent breeding) who would love a little snack.


Thats funny :lol:


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

darthodo said:


> Just to clarify something. Many of the fish from the reputable breeders are from breeding brothers and sisters of the same spawn. Actually, many of the purists won't even breed the same species across collection locations. Inbreeding is inevitable and commonly done in fish, but not as dangerous as with dogs or cats.


True but being subjected to generations of this, like most aquarium raised fish, is how we get "Line Bred" fish with other color morphs and and prominent traits not seen as commonly "in the wild" thus changing the natural process of evolution. So the fish we would re release are different than the ones originally collected and possibly not as suited to their traditional environment.

That is why F0 and F1 fish are worth so much.


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

Toby_H said:


> You can't say "I'm not into it so I'm not going to be responsible... but I am still going to make a few bucks with it on the side"... That is very bad business...


I don't think he ever mentioned doing this for profit.


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## swamptrout (Jul 2, 2007)

Do what you want. they are your fish and it is your conscience.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Your right Chrispyweld... he hasn't...

But the principal still remains... if your going to distribute fry... be a responsible breeder... if your simply a hobbyist and you are not careful to spawn quality fish... do not distribute your fry...

It was also mentioned above how breeding brother to sister (or father to daughter) are both common line breeding approaches... I agree this is often done logically with a positive result... and there is nothing wrong for an experienced breeder to do this... but when someone chooses to breed brother to sister for personal convenience... this is a low class breeding method, for someone who wants to distribute offspring...


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## MetalHead06351 (Oct 3, 2007)

thats kind of hypocritical, "it's o.k. for breeders to do it, but if you do it's low class"


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

> thats kind of hypocritical, "it's o.k. for breeders to do it, but if you do it's low class"


Not really, as *Toby* said, line breeding to lock in or bring out a new color strain is used by breeders frequently. In this case breeders don't mean commerical ones, plenty of home aquarists have been able to create new color strains. What (I think) he meant, and how I took it, as if you are only breeding the fish to sell back to a LFS, THEN it's 'low class' breeding to use brother/sister. Line breeding is for a specific purpose, and those father/daughter, mother/son, or sister/brother crosses are usually bred back to a wild type to help undo some of the effects of line breeding. Most aquarists breeding a pair of say firemouths at home for store credit shouldn't be doing the brother/sister crosses, it's not for a specific purpose and too much inbreeding even in fish is a bad thing.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

MetalHead06351 said:


> thats kind of hypocritical, "it's o.k. for breeders to do it, but if you do it's low class"


It's not hypocritical at all... if you know what you are doing and are doing it for the right reasons, then it's fine... if your just to lazy to take the extra steps to get a proper pair, then your a slacker and shouldn't release the fry...

What I am promoting is simpleâ€¦ be responsibleâ€¦

But this point is also a bit off topic as this is in regards to breeding inbreeding... and the thread's actual topic is in regards to making hybrids.

I confess I brought in the secondary point as it relates to responsible breeding... which is relevant to this topic... but it's not the actual topic...


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## cage623 (Feb 2, 2008)

I knew this would happen. When I first read this post my first thought was that this was going to turn into a long debate. At the time I really didn't want to get into it, but three pages later I have decided to toss in my two cents.

I would say that in general I would have to agree with *Toby_H*. I think that the majority of the hobbiest that have a dislike of hybrids it not so much the hybrids themselves but more to do with all the "muddied" up species that seems to come with it. I am not going to put down Flowerhorns or Parrots or for that matter the people that own or raise them.

However, I am upset with the fact that I am sure that the cichlids I resently paid for at a LFS are not truely pure species of what I was sold. I am not saying that there are obvious differences in the fish I just purchased and F0 fish. I just know that with the way things in our hobby are going that there really is not pure species in the majority of LFS.

I think it really comes down to business ethics. If I am sold a chocolate cichlid (one of the fish I just recently purchased) it should be just that. An example would be when I buy food. If I go to the store and by some pork burger patties I do some assuming that they are 100% pork. I would be really upset, and for sure grossed out, if it turned out that my pork burger was actaully 91% pork, 7% beef, and 2% rat. Maybe I am going to far with this. But that is how I feel.


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## darthodo (Aug 27, 2005)

What aggravates me is when someone posts a pic of a trimac and everyone starts screaming flowerhorn. Even if you get them from a reputable breeder, folks just can't grasp what a true trimac should look like cause there are so many flowerhorns out there bred from trimacs and they look so much alike. What a pain!


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

dwarfpike said:


> > thats kind of hypocritical, "it's o.k. for breeders to do it, but if you do it's low class"
> 
> 
> Not really, as *Toby* said, line breeding to lock in or bring out a new color strain is used by breeders


But still not the same as wild caught fish and probably not as suited to the wild environment and therefore not suitable for re introduction. If they were suited to that environment they would have evolved that way i the first place and would not have to be bred to develop these desired traits. That is all I was getting at.


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