# Plants = 0 Nitrates?



## Cichlid Debby (Mar 21, 2014)

Hi all,
My 33 gal is reading zero nitrates for the past 2 weeks. I am sure it is all the plants that are doing this. I never had this "problem" before. 
The plants are growing all over the surface like a weed choked pond and I am going to have to thin them soon.

1, is this OK for the fish? (no nitrates)
Everybody is eating, active and growing.

2, How much plant food? (I am worried about the fish) I am using SeaChem Flourish at half dose 1 X week.

3, Is there anything else I need to be concerned about? Oxygen?
I am running an AC 70 on one side and have a bubbler on the other side.

I am a total novice with water plants, so to see them take off is very gratifying. But the fish come first.
Thanks.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

Debby,

First off, I really dig your 33gal! You've done a great job with it.

On to the questions..

1. It's not ok for the fish.. it's great for them! Everyone should strive for low Nitrates and zero is about as low as it gets!

2. A half dose once a week is not going to harm the fish. I'd stay stick to that regimen as it seems to be working for you.

3. I'd say there isn't much to be concerned about. The only thing that comes to mind is that you will still want to be doing weekly water changes regardless if the Nitrates are reading zero. However, you could cut the percentage back a bit if you wanted.


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## Cichlid Debby (Mar 21, 2014)

Thanks CJ, I love the way it turned out. It smells like a spring morning after a rain. Just wonderful.
Glad to hear I'm on the right track, just wanted to be sure, zero was such a shock!
I am going to continue water changes. Can't not. Just wouldn't seem right.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

Not sure if you went over it in another thread, but what floating plants do you have and what's your lighting setup? I'd love to have some in my 135gal but I'd most likely have to constantly replenish them as my pearsei and argentea would surely eat them.


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## Cichlid Debby (Mar 21, 2014)

The above picture, large leaf are water lettuce, small leaf are frogbit. I also have a large sword, two big bunches of hornwart, a bit of duckweed that piggy backed in and this frilly stuff called guppy weed.

I am adding RO and have my tap water cut in half at this point. I don't know if this makes any difference to the plants.
I am using a standard 48", 32w, T8 fluorescent. I had a 30" dual T5 but the corners were dark so I switched.
Oh, and the little snails that came in on the plants, the fish love 'em. 

Your fish may or may not pick on them. I put some of the water lettuce in with the festivum and they did not bother it.
Good luck!


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

Good to see things are going well,
You will need to feed the plants. Flourish contains micronutrients only and is not sufficient by itself for long term plant growth. As your tank is lightly stocked and well planted especially with floaters you will need a fertiliser that contains macro nutrients. The easiest way to do this is get your self some potassium nitrate and potassium phosphate powders and make up your own macro fertiliser that you use in conjunction with the flourish. As you want a low input tank the best method of adding fertiliser is to use the duckweed index, have a read of the following http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/low- ... ate.14400/ Post no 10 describes the method and I think it would be in keeping with what you are trying to achieve.
You will need to keep up with the water changes as plants also release waste but not of the variety easily measured outside of a lab so keep changing that water as it will benefit your tank as a whole.


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

This is another one that's worth a read http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.ph ... O2-methods


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## Cichlid Debby (Mar 21, 2014)

Thanks Ollie, Good info and an interesting read. I will delve into all this. Gonna freak me out to ADD phosphate! 
I also have added 4 more keyholes for a total of 9 now. I was convinced that I had only one female of the original 5, now I am fairly sure I have at least 3 maybe 4 girls now.
Water is at, tds-210, GH-140, KH-125 and PH has slowly dropped to 7.6 with no wild swings. Going to try to get down to about 150 TDS.
Thanks again for all your help


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

Adding the macros may seem contrary to conventional teaching but when you consider why we limit these nutrients it may help. Alot of research done in the aquarium hobby is for benefit of marine keeper's as this is where the money is, unfortunately alot of the research is only partially applicable to fresh water yet is applied as gospel without true understanding.
The problem with limiting nutrients is that algae will happily flourish in in nutrient levels 1/1000 of the levels plants require. Yet a tank full of healthy plants will typically be algae free despite the much higher nutrient levels present.


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## Cichlid Debby (Mar 21, 2014)

Hmmm, well this starting to make a whole lot of sense now. Considering that the fish and plants are growing like weeds and there is zero algae in the tank.


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## Morosith (Jul 2, 2014)

I just want to say that this tank looks fantastic! The plants are wonderful and your keyhole cichlids aren't bad themselves  And as others have said this is a great "problem" to have.


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

It will only continue as long as you keep the plants healthy and to do that you need to feed them. Pretty simple really. The other thing that helps it that inorganic nitrate is harmless at the lower levels required by plants so there is no need to worry about any effect on the fish.


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## Cichlid Debby (Mar 21, 2014)

Morosith said:


> I just want to say that this tank looks fantastic! The plants are wonderful and your keyhole cichlids aren't bad themselves  And as others have said this is a great "problem" to have.


Thank you, I never realized what I was missing by not wanting to be bothered with live plants. I'm hooked now!


OllieNZ said:


> It will only continue as long as you keep the plants healthy and to do that you need to feed them. Pretty simple really. The other thing that helps it that inorganic nitrate is harmless at the lower levels required by plants so there is no need to worry about any effect on the fish.


I'm on it. Really want to keep this going. Thanks!


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## hisplaceresort1 (Mar 10, 2014)

I have a quick question... with so much of the surface area of the water covered in plants... well, isn't that where the exchange of gases takes place? Do these fish have enough oxygen? How does that work? ...a newbie thanks you...


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## Cichlid Debby (Mar 21, 2014)

hisplaceresort1 said:


> I have a quick question... with so much of the surface area of the water covered in plants... well, isn't that where the exchange of gases takes place? Do these fish have enough oxygen? How does that work? ...a newbie thanks you...


I do have an HOB and a bubbler so there is surface movement, just not as vigorous as most tanks. The floaters prefer calmer water to sit on.
I am sure for now that the fish are happy and healthy.
Plants also give off oxygen, but how much it contributes IDK as I am a real newbie with plants.


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

Plants are capable of super saturating the water with oxygen but with a hob and bubbler the dissolved gas levels will be maintaining their equilibrium with atmosphere. This isn't a bad thing as the plants will quickly strip all the co2 from the water and be left with nothing to feed on.


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## Cichlid Debby (Mar 21, 2014)

OllieNZ said:


> Plants are capable of super saturating the water with oxygen but with a hob and bubbler the dissolved gas levels will be maintaining their equilibrium with atmosphere. This isn't a bad thing as the plants will quickly strip all the co2 from the water and be left with nothing to feed on.


Love your input Ollie.
OK, so plants equal Oxygen, perfect.
Bubbler and hob equal gas exchange, perfect.
Plants suck out co2 and starve, not so perfect. 
Have I got this right?
Do I need to go with adding Co2? And I assume this is OK for the fish?

Thanks


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

No you don't need to add co2 your bubbler will be keeping all gases including co2 in equilibrium with the atmosphere which equals around 6ppm co2 depending on your water temperature


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## Cichlid Debby (Mar 21, 2014)

Yes, thank you. I went back and read that second article more carefully. Sounds like this will work.


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

Of course it will 
Proof is in the pudding as they say


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## Cichlid Debby (Mar 21, 2014)

Very NICE!!! That is the image I have in my head for my 75. Don't know how much damage the residents will do to the plants, but that is next on my list.
Current pic of the "Pond".


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

Looking good, I'd try keep a constant supply of leaf litter in there. It'll help push the ph down, release various beneficial humic substances and provide microbal growth that makes a good source of food for fry.
Not sure how you'll get on with plants in your 75 it will be the severums that will cause you issues.


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## Cichlid Debby (Mar 21, 2014)

I have had to remove some of the oak leaves as they were really breaking down. I scrounged them up from the yard and they had already been through the winter. I will have a huge supply this fall!  I have added peat pellets to the hob thinking this should help? 
And yes the Severum could prove to be the problem child. She was in the 120 but I was seeing too much stress. She is much happier now.


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

As long as the leaves are fall leaves then the breakdown is not a problem the only issue is with adding green leaves when they breakdown it will release ammonia. Does your severum dig? In my mbuna tank I have vallis and anubis growing so I would say these will do our with the severum add java fern to that list and some floaters again. I'm not sure what else I've not kept a severum before but did read they are partial to nibbling on plants my suggestion if you can't find a list of suitable plants get a sacrficial variety pack and see what she eats and what she leaves.


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## Cichlid Debby (Mar 21, 2014)

Yep, they were all fall leaves. I'll see if I can round up more.
She has shown no inclination to dig, so far. Glad to here you say Anubis and java fern, I was going to start there.
I'm expecting she will taste some of them. I know she really likes duckweed.


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

Good looking tanks! Plants never were my thing.. they'd always start out strong then slowly die away.

Debby, I really like the choice of color for your background.

As for keeping live plants with herbivorous cichlids, I've found it helps to offer them greens daily (romaine, zucchini, peas, ect). That way they get their fill from those and don't look to your plants for a quick snack.


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## Cichlid Debby (Mar 21, 2014)

Thanks Chris,
Water plants were never my thing either but it's working so I'm going with it. What's really interesting is how the tank is evolving.

Paint is rust-oleum "Painters Touch" spray, Meadow Green Gloss.

I was thinking of giving the Sev a good supply of duckweed first, since I know she likes it, and then try to get the rest of the plants in. I may have to start a small tank just for her greens.  She does take peas and romaine also.


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

I'd avoid feeding her water plants as it may make her more inclined to sample the others, kinda like giving a fish feeders can make it more inclined to sample it's tankmates. Giving fresh veg as suggested and starting with tough bitter plants may break the habit of sampling anything that you stick in.


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## Cichlid Debby (Mar 21, 2014)

Good idea Ollie. I didn't think about it that way.


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