# 240gal reef to cichlid tank



## gliebig

I'm getting bored with my current reef tank and want to switch gears and try a cichlid tank. My current tank has two 1 1/2" overflows drilled in each back corner that goes into a 90 gallon sump. 2x400watt 12k halides and 2 vortech pumps. It's built in wall and visible from two sides.
*Tank dimensions are 60"x36"x25".*

I'm looking to get the pangea rock background maybe the rocky IV. Are they easy to come by? Also, since my tank is viewable from the side also, would it be difficult to have a nice clean look where the background meets the side?

I don't know if it would be best to keep the sump and have the water drain into filter socks like it is now? I figure it would be a good place to hide the pumps, heaters, etc.. I want a clean look in the tank, so I'm wondering if I could plumb the return from the sump and keep the return hidden in the main tank.

Would 2x 400watt halides be overkill or could I scale it down to 2x250 halides? Would a vortech(s) be too much flow?

I'm only in the brainstorming stages of this build as my reef is still running at the time.

Here is a pic of my setup now...


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## wlyons9856

My friend, in case anyone hasn't told you already, this is beautiful.


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## Lacey131

I am doing the same exact thing right now, but your tank is established and doing well... my tank even after a year of keeping fish in i went through prolly 1200$ worth of fish that lived a max of like 4-5 months.... If you can get store credit for your beautiful marine fish at your local pet store, that would be better in your case, just dont flush... lol Also if you DO decide to I am currently still using my marine Bimini Sand and my Haitian Live Rock in my tank that i have converted. My Blue Zaire Frontosa's are on their way and after 4 wks of cycling the tank is super ready. so good luck. my transition went decently smooth. good luck


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## gliebig

Those pics are a year or so old. The tank doesn't look so good anymore. I have a beautiful 125gal reef at my office and I can't for the life of me figure out why one looks so good and the other so bad. I plan on transferring some of the fish and coral to the office tank. The rest will find home to people in my local reef club.

Lacey, do you have any pics or a link to your new tank?


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## kriskm

A nice background, pangea or aquaterra or some sort, would look awesome along the two sides that are hidden from the back. And you have plenty of room for it in that tank. You can use the background to hide intakes and returns. I have zaire gibberosas/frontosas in a 125g, and they are beautiful. They are getting some size on them, 6-8", and I love how they fill up a big tank. You could do that or big Malawi haps. I think you get a little more action with the haps, more peaceful with the fronts.


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## Pali

Keep the sump, it's extra water volume and effective filtration. If you want one or keep the dual overflow is all up to you, IMO you don't need the massive waterflow thru your sump in a freshwater tank compared to reef. If you looking for bio filtration I belive it's better to keep a semi low flow, compared to a high flow. I have a 5x turnover of my tank thru my sump, the rest is from powerheads in the tank. I aim for a minimum of 10x Turnover for my african cichlid tanks.

As said above, you have a very nice looking reef tank there, but if you like some changes then a cichlid tank is very interresting indeed.

The pangea backgrounds are nice, but no clue how easy they are to comeby in the US. Here they are easy to find, as they are made here in Denmark. But im shure you can find a online shop that have em and ships to the US.

On the other hand you will not be able to get a 3D background like the Rocky IV, flat into the back of the glass. It will be visable from the side and end of your tank, if you install a BG in the back and right side. I would look for a slim or flat line 3d background, they are not as detailed as the Rocky IV but they are flat on the back and will not stick out from the back of the tank.

2x400 watt halides would be overkill indeed, I would look for a shoplight with flurecent tubes or a T5 controler for 2x 56 watt tubes.

You would be good with 2x 56 watt if they fit above your tank, 3 x 36 watt T8's or 2x 56 watt T5's and save a lot of power compared to halides.

Hope this helps your brainstorming :thumb:


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## Jowlz

My 125 cichlid tank is set up just like your marine tank. The sump is a huge plus IMHO, as cichlids tend to be dirty. I will not run a cichlid tank without a sump. I am currently setting up a 40 gallon breeder for shellies. I am drilling the tank and running a big sump. Though I will reroute some water flow back into the sump. You could go this route if you think you need less flow thru your tank. I run marine lighting flourescent/actinic lighting and the fish look great. The prefilter socks will need more frequent cleaning with the cichlids than with the marines...


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## gliebig

kriskm said:


> A nice background, pangea or aquaterra or some sort, would look awesome along the two sides that are hidden from the back. And you have plenty of room for it in that tank. You can use the background to hide intakes and returns. I have zaire gibberosas/frontosas in a 125g, and they are beautiful. They are getting some size on them, 6-8", and I love how they fill up a big tank. You could do that or big Malawi haps. I think you get a little more action with the haps, more peaceful with the fronts.


I'm thinking about the pangea malawi bg. The visible side is bugging me though. Do you think I could cut it a bit short then attach that piece at an angle or something? I've been looking at these DIY bg's that look great, but I don't think I have the skills.


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## gliebig

Looking for everyone's opinion on a background. **Remember, my tank is viewable from the left side too.** (see pics above)
My choices:
1. Rocky1. 
+Would fit my tank good. 
- Kinda boring. Not as much depth 









2. Malawi.
+I really like the look of this one the most. A lot of depth which is good for my 36" deep tank.
- It's not going to look good from the side where it's siliconed because it sticks out so far.









3. Tanganyika.
+I think it would fit up against the side pretty good.
- I'm kinda luke warm about the overall styling, but it's nice.









4. Ledge.
+I think this one would also fit pretty good against the side.
- Not sure about the finish and color on this one.









I'd like to hear some opinions.

Thanks,
G


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## gilberbt

I personally like the #2 Malawi best. I believe with these backgrounds you would have to cut them into pieces to get it into the tank. So when doing that you may be able to cut top and bottom of the piece on the exposed side on an angle (like a triangular wedge shape) so it would come close to flush with the back of the tank in the exposed corner. I dont know if this would work or look good but it may be an option.

I have also seen photos of people that have had these backgrounds with setup like yours and painted the tank the rock color where its exposed to cover it up.

I have not used these types of backgrounds so hopefully someone that has will chime in. Good Luck!


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## gliebig

Malawi background on it's way. :dancing:


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## Pali

:thumb:

2, 3 & 4 was all nice backgrounds to choce from, looking forward to see how it ends up looking!

Im pretty shure it will be killer!


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## KiDD

With the way your tank is set up I would not do a background. I would place rocks in the center and go with that.. If you do a background you would have to paint one side of the tank so that it is only veiwable from one side... and the other you would have a black spot. if you don't paint it you will be looking at the back side of the background.


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## fish_addiction

I have the Malawi Grey 48"x24" in my 110H tank. I am in the process of cutting it down and re-installing it because it took up over halft my tank depth (The tank is 19" deep). Even with a 36" deep tank, I would recommend slimming it down by cutting some of the back off. If you cut it correctly, you won't take away from the appearance of depth. Of course, paint your background and visible side black. Here is the side view:










And from the front:










Just make sure there is absolutely no way your fish can get behind the background if you ever want to catch them again. Good luck.


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## gliebig

Yeah, I was thinking about trying to shave some off so it didn't stick out to far. I have a sump so I really don't need the space behind it for anything. Please keep me updated on how yours turns out.


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## fish_addiction

Will do. I have my tank drained right now, and I've got the background cut into pieces. I'm headed outta town for the weekend, but I'll post step-by-step pics next week.


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## gliebig

Cool. Looking forward to it. I was hoping that mine would ship out this week, but I haven't heard anything.


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## gliebig

I've been thinking about my lighting lately. I'd rather not run halides because of energy consumption, but I like the shimmer effect. 
I started thinking about LED's. What do you guys think about using these strips. Maybe a mix of blues and whites?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/120CM...Q5fAccessories


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## fish_addiction

OK,

Sorry it has taken me so long, but here are the results. I set up a 20G temporary home for my 3 favorite fish (Tropheus Duboisi, Auloncara Firefish and 1 yellow lab) and sold the rest on craiglist. The lesson to be learned here is don't try to install a 3D background in one day while your fish are in buckets. Take your time and do it right!










Here is the tank with the original 3D install. The tank is 19" deep, but there was very little swimming room (6" at some spots).



















After removing the background - pretty sparse:










I used a hand saw to cut about 6-8 inches off of the back of the background. This process took lots of back and forth from the garage to the tank and about 12 beers. You can see spots where you will be able to see the back of the tank through the background after the cutting which actually turned out nicely.










A side shot of one of the pieces. I cut the back off flat and also trimmed out for the return pipe from the sump which pumps water to the jets at the bottom of the tank. Total depth of the background is about 6" at the most at this point (Was 12-14" as previously installed).










Installing the background-I used Great Stuff (Great Mess) Foam instead of silicone due to all of the patching and gaps to be filled. It is very important that the background is pinned/clamped in place so that the foam doesn't move it as it cures.





































After the pieces had set up, I snapped the top parts that didn't align and reset them with more Great Mess. I also used the foam to seal up all of the spots where a fish could potentially get behind the backgroud as well as the top of the background. I have a ton of water movement in the tank with two intakes at the top and two return jets at the bottom, but waste (and fish) kept getting trapped behind the background. To remedy this. I left some spots open where the background is attached to the back of the tank (not large enough for fish) and installed a powerhead at the top behind the background with a piece of tubing attached to suck water out from behind the background and send it towards the overflow. You cannot see it in the pic, but it is in the top left hand corner with the tubing extending down to the center of the background. It will be easily accessed when it fails one day.










I used grey and black spray paint to cover the Great Mess in the tank and flat black on the outside side portions where you can see the edges of the background. It looks a little blue in the pic due to the Actinic 50/50 bulbs, but much more natural in person.










With a little creative lighting-i really like this look, but I may leave it fully lit until I get the algae to grow back. The rock in the middle weighs 80 lbs!










Thanks for looking.


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## gliebig

I think I'd be too scared to carve up my background. lol.
Do you have any side shots to show how much more room you have?


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## Chubbs the Jellybean

The new install is TOTALLY worth it - the tank looks so much deeper and the background itself gives the fish a few more hiding spots too. Creative lighting looks sick :thumb:

When I move out and have my own place I'm going to set up a 75 with a 3D background (my oscar in my 90 would probably destroy it if I installed one in there  )


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## fish_addiction

Chubbs the Jellybean said:


> The new install is TOTALLY worth it - the tank looks so much deeper and the background itself gives the fish a few more hiding spots too. Creative lighting looks sick :thumb:
> 
> When I move out and have my own place I'm going to set up a 75 with a 3D background (my oscar in my 90 would probably destroy it if I installed one in there  )


Thanks,

There's no way a fish could tear up a 3D background. The pre-manufactured ones are tough as heck, and the DIY (Look under the DIY forum) backgrounds are covered in cement. Definately wait until you have an empty tank and plenty of time on your hands. You don't wanna rush this process


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## fish_addiction

gliebig said:


> I think I'd be too scared to carve up my background. lol.
> Do you have any side shots to show how much more room you have?


Sorry the Pics are not really at the same angle as you can't even see the background now from the first angle. The rework added at least 6" of depth at the narrowest sections and more at others. The big advantage is now the fish have the full bottom of the tank where before the background was taking up over half. Also, there are sections where you can see through the background which turned out pretty nice (the back of the tank is painted flat black). My tank is only half as deep as yours (18" vs. 36"), so you may elect not to modify the background. Cutting it into pieces is really not that big of deal if you use the Great Mess foam and spray paint method. Just make sure you use a good sealer after painting and allow plenty of time to dry. Can you get it into the tank without cutting? Definately post the before and after pics :thumb:

Before:










After:


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## gliebig

Got my background today!


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## fish_addiction

Sweet 

One more idea... Some folks have elected to remove the top braces on the tank in order to fit the background in in one piece, and of course, re-install the brace afterwards. This route seems like it would have been better than cutting the thing into three pieces IME.


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## gliebig

My tank doesn't have the plastic brace, it has glass bracing around the edges and a big piece down the middle. Unfortunately, I'll have to cut it. I tried to get it in there last night and it is about 1/2" to big.


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## fish_addiction

Should just be silicone holding the glass brace (Like my tank). You can remove it with an exacto knife and then re-silicone it back in place when your finished. It's pretty tough to get the background back together correctly once you cut it into pieces, which is why I ended up using great mess foam. Just take you time, and don't breathe too much fumes from the glue


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## gliebig

fish_addiction said:


> Should just be silicone holding the glass brace (Like my tank). You can remove it with an exacto knife and then re-silicone it back in place when your finished. It's pretty tough to get the background back together correctly once you cut it into pieces, which is why I ended up using great mess foam. Just take you time, and don't breathe too much fumes from the glue


The inner piece is what I would need to get off in order to get the background in. How do I get that off if it's siliconed to the piece above it?


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## fish_addiction

A long bladed exacto knife would do the trick. I don't see anything other than silicone holding it together. Would you have to remove the peice of angle iron too? If so, I wouldn't bother. If you do remove the glass, use GE Silicone I to re-install it. Clamp it in place, and give it a week to fully cure before adding water to the tank. If the background is a perfect fit (The exact same width as the tank's inner dimension), then I think you might regret cutting it. Otherwise, it may not make much difference to shave off an inch and foam it in at the edge.


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## gliebig

I cut along that whole seam and through the gap on the side at the near end. it doesn't budge. i'll have to mess with it a bit more tonight. I think the background will fit perfectly length wise so I really don't want to cut it.
What size should I cut the intake hole on the bottom of the bg?


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## fish_addiction

Any holes you need to cut will be determined by your plumbing configuration. I would set the BG in place and go from there. Is the BG the full height of your tank? Is your tank drilled? Are you using overflow boxes for a sump? I used the BG to hide all of this stuff, but it is important to have water movement behind the BG too, or **** will build up. You should be able to set the tank up so that none of the equipment is visible at all.

****Edit - Seriously, I can't say **** (C.R.A.P.) on this forum? I knew it was PG, but G?


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## gliebig

the tank is drilled with two overflows which go into a 90gal sump.


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## fish_addiction

I plumbed my return from my sump back to the bottom of the tank (Drilled on one side/PVC behind the BG on the other) to creat an upward flow effect so I don't have to vacuum the sand. A good shut-off valve as well as a check valve are both musts in this configuration. I would highly recommend this approach. I would cut small holes in the bottom or middle portion of the background and place your Hydro Coriala pumps there too. Just make sure they are accessable to be removed for maintenance. It's all alot of work, but it's so nice not having to vacuum the substrate. All just recommendations, looks like you had a pretty nice reef setup and are not new to the game.

Post Pics :thumb:


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## Lacey131

Srry about the long delay here is my converted marine to fresh 
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak- ... 6835_n.jpg
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak- ... 5633_n.jpg
they second pic is turbid due to water change and stirring vigorously but the first pic was taken 30 min after the second


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## dtune21

Looking good man. Can we get a few more shots with the water cleared?


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## gliebig

Do I have to cut a drain hole in the bottom of the background or can I have the water overflow the top?


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## gliebig

I want to paint the edge of the foam where I had to cut it. What is a good fish safe/non-toxic paint I could use?


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## kriskm

For a small job like this, I would recommend Krylon Fusion spray paint. I don't remember ever hearing of someone using it on a background like this, but people often use it to paint their intakes and returns.


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## fish_addiction

kriskm said:


> For a small job like this, I would recommend Krylon Fusion spray paint. I don't remember ever hearing of someone using it on a background like this, but people often use it to paint their intakes and returns.


That's what I used to paint my BG where I cut it. It's working out fine so far.


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## fish_addiction

gliebig said:


> Do I have to cut a drain hole in the bottom of the background or can I have the water overflow the top?


Definately let the water flow over the top. I didn't at first, and it caused stagnation because I didn't have enough surface agitation. I just covered the overflow intake with some plastic mesh to keep small fish from getting sucked into the sump.


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## gliebig

Should I cut a bottom intake too or is having it flow over the top good enough?

I was thinking about touching up the sides with that quickrete coloring stuff. Think that would work?


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## fish_addiction

Lots of folks use the quickrete on the forum with good results. I haven't used it in person. I would cut holes in the bottom of the BG to keep good water circulation. I have some small holes with a powerhead behid the BG to suck water out and up to the surface near the surface. upward flow is :thumb:


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## gliebig

I used some quickrete charcoal coloring to paint the top of my background and the viewable side. I'm worried now that when water hits it, it's going to bleed. The background is siliconed in place. Fixing the top is doable, but the side can't be done unless I rip the whole thing out. Is this going to be really bad or ok?


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## fish_addiction

I've never used it, but I think your supposed to use a sealer with quickrete so it doesn't mess with your PH. If you can't get to it with silicone, use the sealer. There are a whole lot of folks on the forum that have used the stuff. Here is a link to DIY backgrounds that may help:

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=99515


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## gliebig

My test piece did stain the water, but not as bad as I thought it would. I think once the water goes through the filter a few times, all should be good.


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## fish_addiction

PICS?


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## gliebig

I put some rocks and sand in this weekend. Not enough rocks, so I spent the day rock hunting before the Raven's game yesterday. I hope to have it scaped how I like it this week then add water!
I was playing around with my lighting this weekend and tried one pendant mounted right over the middle of the tank. It may be different when I get water in there, but I think I may be able to get away with using 1 instead of 2 lights! Kinda sucks I just bought 2brand new ballasts, though. haha.


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## gliebig

Nearly killed myself tonight lifting these rocks into the tank. I know some of these weigh 80+lbs each. Do you think that is ok for the tank? I was standing in it the other day and I weigh about 180, so I'm hoping this won't stress the tank.
Anywho, I just kinda threw this together in a few minutes tonight, so it isn't final yet. 
I had a tough time getting pics to turn out good. It does look much better in person....
Let me know what you think.


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## FloodXL

That is really cool. Can't wait to see it filled and stocked.


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## jchild40

I can't wait either; so far that is awesome looking!


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## jimmie

Looking good man,nice,what u going to stock it with,me personally I prefer mostly haps hahahaha but u know still nice whatever u stock it with


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## gliebig

jimmie said:


> Looking good man,nice,what u going to stock it with,me personally I prefer mostly haps hahahaha but u know still nice whatever u stock it with


Leaning towards mbuna, but peacocks and haps are on my mind too. So hard to decide.


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## jimmie

Hahahaha I know ,I tell u what if u like big bold beautiful colors go with mostly haps a few peacocks ,but if u like colors with a lot of fish go with mbunas,u can stock more ,but like a I said I like haps a few peacocks . :fish:


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## fish_addiction

Really nice. Merry Christmas to you  I wouldn't change a rock; they look very natural. I think the single light over the middle will create a nice effect.

Your possibilities are endless as far as stocking goes. You could probably get 5 or 6 different breeding groups of Mbuna if you went that direction. Maybe 3 nice groups of Tropheus if you have a little cash to spend upfront. Anyway, keep us updated with lots of pics.


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## gliebig

fish_addiction said:


> Really nice. Merry Christmas to you  I wouldn't change a rock; they look very natural. I think the single light over the middle will create a nice effect.
> 
> Your possibilities are endless as far as stocking goes. You could probably get 5 or 6 different breeding groups of Mbuna if you went that direction. Maybe 3 nice groups of Tropheus if you have a little cash to spend upfront. Anyway, keep us updated with lots of pics.


Thanks. The tank is filled with h2o. Finally! I really like how the single halide looks, just not happy with the 14k so I'm going to change it out with a 10k. Now to get this cycle started. :dancing:


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## larry.beck

I'd hold off changing that 14k bulb out until you have your fish selection... might find that it really brings out the blues and yellows if you end up with a tank with lots of blue and yellow fish.

Setup is looking great!


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## gliebig

Finished up the filtration today. I rerouted the overflows and reduced them to 1" piping from 1.5". They go across two layers of 2" foam. The foam is suspended off the bottom a few inches by some 3" pvc collums that I notched out on the bottom so no detritus would get stuck inside.


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## gliebig

I have nitrites!! Finally. :fish:


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## cantrell00

I wished my tank was that deep so I could keep my Malawi Rock background.

It is a 4 X 2 - 120 gallon tank... With the background & it's 6-8" depth, it is basically only a 75 now.

What is the footprint of yours?

I intend to remove it when I get the will to do it. That job will be a royal PITA. I siliconed it in well. I doubt that I will be able to salvage it...

Beautiful tank BTW... Did you ever decide on going with mbuna? You could put ALOT of them in there.


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## gliebig

My tank is 60x36x25. I was worried that the malawi background would take up to much room, but it turned out really nice. I should have gone with a 4ft deep tank. Next time. haha.

I think I'm going to go with mbuna and maybe a few peacocks if possible. I'll have to put a list of fish together that I like and post them on here to get everyone's expert advice.


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## cantrell00

So, 5 X 3.. Nice...

I know longer is better for the Africans but I love the look of a tank with significant front to back depth.

Depth gives the illusion of mass & scale much better than length IMO.

Here is mine


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## gliebig

Your tank looks great. I wouldn't take out the background.

In my next life, I'd like to have a 72"x48"x24" tank. :wink:

p.s. where did you get your fish?


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## cantrell00

From only at a glance, I completely agree with you but I am also experiencing problems with water flow because of the background. The background can act as a dam, relative to water circulation, or atleast that has been my experience. Detritus specifically has a difficult time getting back to the overflow (sump system). This problem is really compounded in an overstocked tank (by design - mbuna's) because ALOT of fish = ALOT of "stuff". :lol:

As for the fish..

Demasonis came from "the" breeder in "Utah" .. Sorry, against the rules to mention the name.. 
I am very pleased with them
The rustys, albino zebras & trewavasae's came from a LFS.. Yellow labs came from a breeder that lives close to me...

Here are a couple of threads...

Build thread:

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=221031&highlight=

Photo thread:

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=222527&highlight=

I appreciate the compliment. My wife agrees with you & thinks I am nuts to even consider it..


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## gliebig

Waiting for my cycle to finish. I'm bored so I took some tank pics.


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## dielikemoviestars

Love that it's a bar set-up in front of the tank. And those rocks are nice. Man, that's a classy tank. :thumb:


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## bmweiler09

absolutely incredible. opcorn: I'm sure I'll be looking at this again in the TOTM section very soon!


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## larry.beck

Nice job matching up the rocks to the background!


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## fish_addiction

cantrell00 said:


> From only at a glance, I completely agree with you but I am also experiencing problems with water flow because of the background. The background can act as a dam, relative to water circulation, or atleast that has been my experience. Detritus specifically has a difficult time getting back to the overflow (sump system).


I added a powerhead at the top of my BG and plumbed it to a piece of 5/8" tubing to suck water into the BG and out next to one of the overflows. It completely fixed that problem. My build is shown earlier in this thread.

gliebig - Looking good, and sorry the Ravens lost  Any start on the stocking list?


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## gliebig

[quote="fish_addiction"
gliebig - Looking good, and sorry the Ravens lost  Any start on the stocking list?[/quote]

OMG that Ravens game. I can't even talk about that. :x

I just posted a new thread under the Malawi section looking for ideas. I figured more people would see it there.


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## gliebig

Nitrites are still high, but sloooooowly falling. :zz:


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## fish_addiction

I think about 60 Mbuna - 5 species would be perfect. Lots of action. Then you could add a couple large haps and peacocks to patrol the tank, and it would look alot like the real lake. opcorn:


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## phorty

can't wait to see this


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## gliebig

My tank has been filled for about two months or so with no water changes yet. (still waiting for the cycle to complete)
Today, I calibrated my pinpoint ph monitor and then put the probe in the tank. I'm getting a reading of 8.39. Is that high? I thought it would be much lower.


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## dielikemoviestars

Yes, 8.4 is a high pH. Is it too high for Malawians? Not at all. It's more suitable for Tangs, but mbuna will be fine. If you're worried about pH shocking your fish, just do a drip-acclimatization when you get them.


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## shellies215

Awesome tank !! Are you in PA ? ( I see your beer)


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## gliebig

Checked ph this morning and it was 8.1

I'm in Md. I just put the yuengling (sp) there for effect. I'm not much of a drinker.....
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.anymore


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## cantrell00

How is your cycle going? You have to be getting close....

Did you ever arrive at a firm stock list or still evaluating?


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## bmweiler09

cantrell00 said:


> How is your cycle going? You have to be getting close....
> 
> Did you ever arrive at a firm stock list or still evaluating?


Yes. Inform us! :drooling: :fish:


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## Unclebill123

gliebig said:


> I'm getting bored with my current reef tank and want to switch gears and try a cichlid tank. My current tank has two 1 1/2" overflows drilled in each back corner that goes into a 90 gallon sump. 2x400watt 12k halides and 2 vortech pumps. It's built in wall and visible from two sides.
> *Tank dimensions are 60"x36"x25".*
> 
> I'm looking to get the pangea rock background maybe the rocky IV. Are they easy to come by? Also, since my tank is viewable from the side also, would it be difficult to have a nice clean look where the background meets the side?
> 
> I don't know if it would be best to keep the sump and have the water drain into filter socks like it is now? I figure it would be a good place to hide the pumps, heaters, etc.. I want a clean look in the tank, so I'm wondering if I could plumb the return from the sump and keep the return hidden in the main tank.
> 
> Would 2x 400watt halides be overkill or could I scale it down to 2x250 halides? Would a vortech(s) be too much flow?
> 
> I'm only in the brainstorming stages of this build as my reef is still running at the time.
> 
> Here is a pic of my setup now...


Simply gorgeous! I am a starter and in an apartment. I hope one day I can work up to this. I can only imagine what your up grade will look like.


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## cantrell00

Gliebig...

Are/were those Moorish Idols or Whipplefish? I know they look kinda similar but can't remember which...


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## gliebig

They were heniochus. Really cool fish but one came diseased and wiped out $$$$ worth of fish.

I think my tank is just about cycled now!


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## gliebig

bmweiler09 said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How is your cycle going? You have to be getting close....
> 
> Did you ever arrive at a firm stock list or still evaluating?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Inform us! :drooling: :fish:
Click to expand...

Stocking thread here:

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... p?t=223318


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## gliebig

I think my cycle is complete so yesterday I went to my lfs and picked up 3 small albino socolofi to see how they would do. I put them in the tank then ran around to the front to see them. I only saw one. :-? I then went around to the back of the tank and saw two of them behind the background. There are a few spots where I couldn't silicone and they found it. I netted them and put them back in the main tank. Ran around to the front and didn't see them. Came back around and they were behind the background again. arrghh. Netted them again and put them in the front. They seemed to be doing okay this time, so I went to bed.
When I got home from work today, I went downstairs to see how they were doing. I went looked in the tank and could only find one of them. I looked EVERYWHERE, behind rocks, behind the background, on the floor, floating......couldn't find the other two. I thought maybe these guys somehow found the way into the sump. Sure enough, somehow they got through a little hole in the strainers and thins is where I found them.....
One in each end of the pipe. They were perfectly fine and I tossed them back into the tank and modified the strainer so they can't do it again. lol


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## gmaschke

Crafty little things aren't they! Just like kids they can find away to defeat anything.........that they want to!


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## gmaschke

By the way since the fish proved that the set-up is obviously flawed you better tear it all down and start from scratch!

JK love the set-up and the thread.


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## cantrell00

This fish had to be incredibly small ?

Love the simplicity of your filter too.. Are you just running water over filter floss? Is there any other bio-medium below it in the sump?

Maybe a bad angle but it doesn't look like you are..


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## gliebig

They are about 1 1/4". Still had to be a tight squeeze. 

For right now, all I have is the foam. Several guys around me run just the foam and say it works great.


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## cantrell00

Well... assuming that it provides enough surface to meet or exceed the bio load - why not?

I am definitely a advocate of keeping it simple...

WOW, 1.25"? Yeah - that was a tight squeeze... They are especially determined if uncomfortable & seeking refuge...


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## dielikemoviestars

I'm laughing imagining 3 1.25" fish in a 240gal tank. You should tell friends/family that it's fully stocked. :lol:


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## cantrell00

No joke....

Gliebig's tank will be crazy cool when he gets it fully stocked....

Forced me to seriously consider upgrading & buying a 180...


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## fish_addiction

gliebig said:


> They are about 1 1/4". Still had to be a tight squeeze.
> 
> For right now, all I have is the foam. Several guys around me run just the foam and say it works great.


That's funny. There are a couple spots wher my fish can get behind the BG, but they are isolated pockets, so they just use them for occasional hiding/sleeping caves. I've used a bunch of that stuff you put in your gutters to keep leaves out to cover the sump intake, etc... *You will love the way the Albino Soco's look in that tank * Now maybe some yellow labs, Acei, Dems and Red Top Zebras, Maingano, White Top Hara, RRR, I'm getting jealous again... Whatever you do, add the least aggressived species first and work your way up to the devils :fish:


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## gliebig

I'm going back tonight to get another 7-10 albino soc's. I'll see how their yellow lab selection is too.


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## cantrell00

> That's funny. There are a couple spots wher my fish can get behind the BG, but they are isolated pockets, so they just use them for occasional hiding/sleeping caves.


My experience has been the same... They go back & forth. I am hopeful that when mine mature enough to start breeding, the fry will do the same... I am gonna let the females spit in the tank..

Fetching fish with the Malawi Rock BG in there is a R O Y A L PITA...

The inevitably get all the way under that middle section that sticks out from the floor...


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## fish_addiction

It is a pain for sure. I drain the tank down to about 2" of water and remove half the rocks. It's worth it, cause I have 9 L. Caeruleus fry in the 20G now


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## gliebig

Just picked up 12 yellow labs and 7 more albino soc's.


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## cantrell00

> Just picked up 12 yellow labs and 7 more albino soc's.


Can't speak for everyone but useless information to me without P I C T U R E S!!!! :x

Just kidding.... Great start... Still thinking Demasoni as the blue barred species?


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## gliebig

cantrell00 said:


> Just picked up 12 yellow labs and 7 more albino soc's.
> 
> 
> 
> Can't speak for everyone but useless information to me without P I C T U R E S!!!! :x
> 
> Just kidding.... Great start... Still thinking Demasoni as the blue barred species?
Click to expand...

Still planning on demasoni. I'd take pics, but the fish are really small and half of them are behind the background right now. :lol:


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## thehustlinowl

Simply awesome!


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## Chunkanese

I just feel bad for the sorry suckers that had to move that in. You just gave me a wet african dream. I only rent an apartment so my 90 gallon seems enough. If I owned I would have swiped some glass at my old job (glass plant) and siliconed them on my machine. Must be very exciting.


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## gliebig

Chunkanese said:


> I just feel bad for the sorry suckers that had to move that in. You just gave me a wet african dream. I only rent an apartment so my 90 gallon seems enough. If I owned I would have swiped some glass at my old job (glass plant) and siliconed them on my machine. Must be very exciting.


It wasn't _that_ bad to move. My friends had a few sets of those super suction cups, so 4 of us could move it quite easily. I helped lift a 500 gallon glass tank a few years ago, now that was a different story. :? 
The main pia was my stand. I'm not very handy, so I had my friends build it at their store. When I got it home, I realized that it wouldn't fit through my door, so I had to rip it apart and rebuild it in the basement. lol.


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## cantrell00

> When I got it home, I realized that it wouldn't fit through my door, so I had to rip it apart and rebuild it in the basement. lol.


Boy. That had to suck...


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## gliebig

Just snapped some quick pics. These fish are tiny and fast! The pics look a bit more blue than in person, but I think I still need to get a 10k or 12k bulb. This one looks more like a 20k.


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## cantrell00

Those guys hit the fish lottery!!!!!!!!!!!

They just as easily could have gone "home" to a 24" tank...

Looks good Dude...

Go pick up my 180 next weekend... :thumb:


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## gliebig

haha. They are definately enjoying day 2. They were a little skiddish yesterday, but they are all over the tank today.

What are your plans for the new tank?


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## cantrell00

Well... My wife made the 180 conditional.. Basically gat another & one has to go.. She is right though - we simply don't have room for two...

I have really warmed up to the Malawi Rock background now so I was looking for prices for one in 72" - WOW, $325.00 + FRT   

So I dunno... As for the tank, moving all of the fish from the 120 to the 180.. With the extra 2 feet - I don't think I will have to get rid of any species... (Labs, Rustys, Demasonis, Mel Johanni, Albino Zebras, & red Top Trewavasae)

Then selling the 120... I wished I could find a African Cichlid fanatic local that would place value in the tank as it is.. I may advertise it that way on craigslist. But to be honest, everything around here is all about the reef tanks. Maybe I will get lucky...


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## bmweiler09

looking great so far! can't wait to see it fully stocked. This may have been discussed already, but any idea how many dems your going to start out with?


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## fish_addiction

I would add at least 25 dems to start with. It's tough to add any to an established colony, and they're so small the 13 I have in my tank could be more like 20.


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## gliebig

1 more.


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## cantrell00

Man.... Looking sweet Dude...

Got some offspring from this guy - 14 Total










And this guy (8 total) Saturday. WC Cyno White Top Hara










I know you were debating them.. The dominant male took command shortly after being introduced... I would grab some...


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## gliebig

Those are sweet!


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## cantrell00

I am obviously biased but that has to be one of the best looking labs I have ever seen..

The Hara is a cool fish...


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## cantrell00

Looks like you have changed your lighting also.. Maybe just the image?


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## gliebig

It's the same halide. For some reason, that pic just came out better. That is what it looks like in person, not the blue from the other pics. I can set the bulb at 175watts or 250watts. The 250 is more white and the 175 has more blue.


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## cantrell00

Looks great....

How long do you run the Halide?


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## gliebig

cantrell00 said:


> Looks great....
> 
> How long do you run the Halide?


Just when I'm viewing the tank. The room gets some ambient sunlight during the day and I have two moonlights on it at night. ......this is soooooo much better than the reef tank. haha.


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## cantrell00

> this is soooooo much better than the reef tank


Yeah.. It is no longer a hobby when you are getting text messages from your aquarium that the calcium level is low! 

That is no hobby. That is called work.


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## jchild40

cantrell00 said:


>


Wow! Now that's awesome!


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## cantrell00

Yeah... I wished I had that one but I got a few of his offspring instead.. 14 actually...

The Mom was just as impressive believe it or not... I have high hopes for them... Fingers crossed. :thumb:


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## Sylvia18

Thanks for the update


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## fish_addiction

*cantrell00*

Do have any pics of your female Haras?


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## cantrell00

> Do have any pics of your female Haras?


That one is not mine.. This is the WC father of the F1's that I have... Here is a thread from the guy I got them from.. There are pics of the females in there...

[/quote]http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=1468017&highlight=#1468017


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## gliebig

Got my dems and acai in today!


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## cantrell00

Cool deal... How many dems & how big are they?


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## gliebig

I got 20. They are tiiiiiiny.


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## cantrell00

No worries... They will grow rapidly in that tank of yours.. give em 2-3 days & they will be running the joint... :thumb:


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## bmweiler09

Picture update time! :thumb:


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## gliebig

bmweiler09 said:


> Picture update time! :thumb:


I think my fish got a bit nervous......


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## bmweiler09

AWESOME! =D>


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## cantrell00

What are the orange one's? Red Zebra's? Looks like you added some Acei also...


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## gliebig

6 red zebras and 3 acei.


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## DanniGirl

*gliebig*,

Is that a fishing rod under the bar????  BTW, Nice stripper! -Ever been to Lake Powell? 

Oh yeah...and AWESOME looking tank! :thumb:


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## FloodXL

This turned out great! Very well done, congratulations! Love that pic of the sushi and beer in front of it, shows how you can now sit, relax and enjoy! =D>


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## gliebig

DanniGirl said:


> *gliebig*,
> 
> Is that a fishing rod under the bar????  BTW, Nice stripper! -Ever been to Lake Powell?
> 
> Oh yeah...and AWESOME looking tank! :thumb:


Yeah, it's one of those old bamboo rods. It wouldn't fit in my rod rack, so I put it there to get it out of the way. :fish:


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## cantrell00

Heaven forbid getting rid of it... LOL


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## gliebig

Some updated pics...


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## cantrell00

looks great man... is the rock what is commonly known as "riff-raff"? used primarily as erosion control around spill ways, etc?

I am thinking about using it on my 180.


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## gliebig

I picked most of the rock from my friends creek/backyard.


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## cantrell00

gotcha...


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## bmweiler09

Looks good! Gotta love a tank full of monomorphic species, loads of color. Those Dems will get MUCH darker too, mine did in a few months.


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## Valous

wow. Just read the entire thread, from the reef to african. both very nice tanks. and like the in wall tank. What part of MD are you from?


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## gliebig

bel air


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## gliebig

Dumb question:
Could I add one male Cyno White Top Hara? Would he color up?


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## cantrell00

When did you get Hara? didn't realize that you had them. How big are they? Can you identify the number of males/females?


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## gliebig

I don't have any. I was just wondering if I got a single male would color up by himself and if he would get along okay with the other fish I have.


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## brian226

That's by far the nicest set up I've ever seen. :thumb:


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## gliebig

^ I'm not sure about that, but thank you.


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## cantrell00

> I don't have any. I was just wondering if I got a single male would color up by himself and if he would get along okay with the other fish I have.


I wouldn't worry about the aggresion as much as his advances towards any of the other females. If x-breeding doesn't concern you, I wouldn't worry about it.

He may not be as colored if he isn't defending something or isn't trying to impress the ladies.

I would go for it - you can always get females later. Odds are, I may have a few extra eventually...


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## gliebig

Lost two dems this week. 

I haven't had time to watch the fish much lately other than feeding them, so I don't know if it was due to aggression or some other cause.

All the fish were the same size when I got them. It's wierd to see how some of them have grown so much and others haven't. Some of my albino soc's are twice the size of the others.


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## cantrell00

> I haven't had time to watch the fish much lately other than feeding them, so I don't know if it was due to aggression or some other cause.
> 
> All the fish were the same size when I got them. It's wierd to see how some of them have grown so much and others haven't. Some of my albino soc's are twice the size of the others.


In all likelihood, these fish will eventually be the dominant males. FYI

Sorry about the two Dems...


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## fish_addiction

gliebig said:


> Lost two dems this week.
> 
> I haven't had time to watch the fish much lately other than feeding them, so I don't know if it was due to aggression or some other cause.
> 
> All the fish were the same size when I got them. It's wierd to see how some of them have grown so much and others haven't. Some of my albino soc's are twice the size of the others.


That will happen with dems. Be prepared to lose another 4-5 due to aggression. I have tons of hiding spots, but mine managed to thin themsevles down from 13 to 9. The 9 that are left have spawned twice though  and seem to be pretty stable.

BTW, the tank is looking great!


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## gliebig

I've lost about 6 or 7 total.


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## fish_addiction

Do you think it could be bloat, or just aggression? How long have you had them in the tank? 6-7 seems like alot in a short time, but everyone tends to have different experiences with dems.


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## gliebig

I don't know why. I haven't really been watching the tank lately to notice if there is aggression or not. 
I'm just starting to notice some algae growth on the rocks.


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## fish_addiction

gliebig said:


> I don't know why. I haven't really been watching the tank lately to notice if there is aggression or not.
> I'm just starting to notice some algae growth on the rocks.


Well as long as the main group is eating and acting healthy, you should be fine. Just try and count them from time to time and keep a look-out for fish that are hiding, especially during feeding.


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## gliebig

Been getting kinda bored with the cichlid tank. I don't even find myself spending any time at all watching the tank besides feeding.
Thinking about switching it to a salt FOWLR tank. What to do.....?


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## cantrell00

gliebig said:


> Been getting kinda bored with the cichlid tank. I don't even find myself spending any time at all watching the tank besides feeding.
> Thinking about switching it to a salt FOWLR tank. What to do.....?


What will you do with the fish?


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## gliebig

cantrell00 said:


> gliebig said:
> 
> 
> 
> Been getting kinda bored with the cichlid tank. I don't even find myself spending any time at all watching the tank besides feeding.
> Thinking about switching it to a salt FOWLR tank. What to do.....?
> 
> 
> 
> What will you do with the fish?
Click to expand...

Roll them in rice and dunk them in soy sauce. j/k. I'd prob sell them to someone local. Not 100% that I'm doing it, just a thought that jumped in my head today.


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## cantrell00

gliebig said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gliebig said:
> 
> 
> 
> Been getting kinda bored with the cichlid tank. I don't even find myself spending any time at all watching the tank besides feeding.
> Thinking about switching it to a salt FOWLR tank. What to do.....?
> 
> 
> 
> What will you do with the fish?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Roll them in rice and dunk them in soy sauce. j/k. I'd prob sell them to someone local. Not 100% that I'm doing it, just a thought that jumped in my head today.
Click to expand...

I assume a FOWLR is easier-cheaper to maintain than a full blown reef?

How big are they now? Sure you have had holding females by now?


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## gliebig

I've seen a bunch of them holding but no little children swimming around.


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## cantrell00

I can't remember what you had stocked in it... I think you had RZ's, yellow labs, demasoni & albino socofoli?


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## gliebig

and a few acei. Good memory!


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## ahud

What can you get out of a FOWLR? No behavior, no breeding, just pretty fish to look at which is what you have now and you are bored.

Look into Lake Tanganyika, it would go nice with your current lay out and you would get a chance to see some real behavior.

Salt water and lake Malawi are incredibly boring IMO. I always get caught up in setting up saltwater tanks because its fun to mess with all of the equipment, but it never lasts. They get boring.

Just my two cents.


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## cantrell00

> Salt water and lake Malawi are incredibly boring IMO. I always get caught up in setting up saltwater tanks because its fun to mess with all of the equipment, but it never lasts. They get boring.


Isn't this pretty subjective? I have kept Malawian mbuna off & on for many years & while they be a lot of things, boring wouldn't be one of them.

As with everything. To each their own.


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## ahud

Extremely subjective, hence why I said in my opinion directly after the statement. Then I followed up with a just my two cents :thumb:

I felt I related with him, loving to set stuff up, but getting bored soon after.


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## Chunkanese

Maybe look into larger haps? Your friends will be amazed remembering what the little silver juveniles looked like before when they see huge adult colourful haps/peacocks.

Personally mbuna are not my thing. I do have a few in my hap tank, but i love watching the colour changes in peacocks and haps, plus they just keep getting bigger!

Have you ever considered some larger preds/haps like Venestus, Livingstoni, VC-10, C. Moori, Taiwan Reef, Red Empress? With a big tank, big fish would be a real eye catcher.


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## cantrell00

ahud said:


> Extremely subjective, hence why I said in my opinion directly after the statement. Then I followed up with a just my two cents :thumb:
> 
> I felt I related with him, loving to set stuff up, but getting bored soon after.


I gotcha... I must admit that there is a bit of a letdown with me as soon as I complete a project. In the back of my mind, "NEXT" always seems to surface. I have always came back to Mbuna though..


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## ahud

Cantrell00,

I have never kept Malawi fish, but I think its because they are really similar to saltwater fish. You just don't get to see the behavior seen in other fish such as CA, SA, and tangs. I know everybody has their own preferences, but mine is seeing the parental care so that's what I look for in fish. After I decided what I like and sticking with that criteria I break down and re-setup a lot less tanks lol. It's nice to have those two or three weeks of watching mom and dad work together to defend their brood. Once the fry are eaten (in a community situation it happens most of the time) then you only have 2-4 weeks and you get to see the scene played over again for you.

I just wanted the encourage the OP to try something different before going back to saltwater. I admit I am biased, saltwater was a very big money pit for me. I spent a lot of money and got zero enjoyment after the initial enjoyment.

Aaron


----------



## cantrell00

ahud said:


> Cantrell00,
> 
> I have never kept Malawi fish, but I think its because they are really similar to saltwater fish. You just don't get to see the behavior seen in other fish such as CA, SA, and tangs. I know everybody has their own preferences, but mine is seeing the parental care so that's what I look for in fish. After I decided what I like and sticking with that criteria I break down and re-setup a lot less tanks lol. It's nice to have those two or three weeks of watching mom and dad work together to defend their brood. Once the fry are eaten (in a community situation it happens most of the time) then you only have 2-4 weeks and you get to see the scene played over again for you.
> 
> I just wanted the encourage the OP to try something different before going back to saltwater. I admit I am biased, saltwater was a very big money pit for me. I spent a lot of money and got zero enjoyment after the initial enjoyment.
> 
> Aaron


Ok... Yeah, I see the draw as far as the maternal aspects of Tang's. Mbuna are very curious fish to watch as well but it is more like watching a bunch of dudes all try to get the number from the same female. Inevitably there is a fight with only the alpha left standing (swimming).

Rinse - repeat. :lol:

I haven't watched salt water species enough to compare the two, honestly. Have never had salt water aquaria. I go snorkeling/diving to experience that. A aquarium is a pretty meager attempt to simulate it it. Not even close, obviously.


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## gliebig

Maybe an easy planted tank? Is there such a thing?


----------



## cantrell00

gliebig said:


> Maybe an easy planted tank? Is there such a thing?


Would depend on the plants... To each their own but THAT would bore me.. :lol:


----------



## gliebig

I think the only solution is to setup more tanks. :wink:


----------



## cantrell00

gliebig said:


> I think the only solution is to setup more tanks. :wink:


Like a "fish room" 

This isn't a hobby. It is a sickness.


----------

