# Fish Dying - High Ammonia Not Going Away



## raygano (Nov 19, 2017)

Hello All,

We have a 125 Gal tank we bought about 6 weeks ago.

We have about 20 SA Cichlids, most are juveniles about 2" in length give or take.

My PH is sitting around 8.0

Nitrate and nitrite counts are all in the good.

I have tested our own house water multiple times, no ammonia in it at all.

We have been battling high ammonia count for the past 4-5 weeks and continues to sit at 1ppm no matter what we do.

In fact we did a solid 1/3 water change yesterday and just after filling, tested and the water was still sitting at .75ppm to 1ppm. It is as if the water change did nothing.

We have done everything...

1/3 - even 1/2 water change - done this at least 5 times

we are adding beneficial bacteria like crazy daily. We are on our fifth 16 oz bottle.

We have gotten a gallon of good bacteria from the shop we purchased tthe fish from and added it to the tank.

We are barely feeding the fish to the point that they are getting a little "peckish" with each other, sometimes skipping a day so no over feeding.

We are losing about 1 fish a day or every other day.

I have recently added Zeolite crystals to the filter and levels still sitting at 1ppm.

We had sea shells that my wife bought from the store and we just pulled them out of the tank today.

We are at our wits end and we don't want to lose any more fish.

PLEASE HELP WITH ANY ADVISE!!!

Thanks!

Ray


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

Sounds like your tank is cycling still. How did you attempt to cycle the tank and when did you add the fish?


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## raygano (Nov 19, 2017)

We got the tank and three days later we added fish. We did not test the water to see where we were at, that was a problem also. Did not buy a test kit when we got the tank.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I remain skeptical about bottled bacteria...and sounds like yours is not working effectively. What do the manufacturers say about your situation and how you should proceed. The products are not the same. We would suggest cycling with ammonia before you get the fish, but too late for that unless the LFS will take the fish back for six weeks.

BTW beneficial bacteria is not shared by the bottle...a hobbyist would have to give you established filter media.

1ppm is not good for the fish but I am surprised it is killing them. What are your test results for nitrite and nitrate?


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

Your tank isn't cycled yet. And the bottled bacteria products do not work. I don't care what anyone says, they don't do anything. It takes 3-4 weeks for a tank to cycle, you can add that bacteria until you're blue in the face, its still going to take 3-4 weeks. You're only options are putting the fish elsewhere until your tank is cycled or keeping your tank treated with Prime (or similar) and doing water changes every 24-48 hours. If you can find some media from an already established filter it would speed up the cycling process but thats the only option for that.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

gillmanjr said:


> Your tank isn't cycled yet. And the bottled bacteria products do not work. I don't care what anyone says, they don't do anything. It takes 3-4 weeks for a tank to cycle, you can add that bacteria until you're blue in the face, its still going to take 3-4 weeks. You're only options are putting the fish elsewhere until your tank is cycled or keeping your tank treated with Prime (or similar) and doing water changes every 24-48 hours. If you can find some media from an already established filter it would speed up the cycling process but thats the only option for that.


On average a "cycle" takes at least 6 WEEKS. I'm not sure what products you have tried but there are a couple of them that actually do work to speed up the process, but it's not some magic potion that will instantly cycle the tank. It's okay to give YOUR opinion about it but let's be respectful of other people's opinions as well. A better way to state that would be "From my experience Product A hasn't worked for me."


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## Steve C (Oct 9, 2011)

Agree with you caldwelldaniel26. Some people simply know it all I guess...It's pretty easy to peg who those people are after reading a few post/replies from them though. While there are some products that don't do as they claim, there are also a few that actually do exactly as they claim so people should not be stating something as fact unless they have tried them all for themselves. That's the sort of advice that turns new people off of sites such as this where they could get some help that they need.
There are a couple of the bottled bacteria ones that do work pretty darn well. While I simply seed filters on my tanks inside I don't like taking media from my tanks to seed my Koi pond in the spring, or the tank I put my Koi in when I bring them in for the winter. So I have tried various products and found "Start Smart Complete" does in fact speed up the cycle by a huge amount of time, and also makes it perfectly safe for fish in 48hrs. A lot of pond keepers like myself use Start Smart as well as the Dr Tim's one and have been for years with great results.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Steve C said:


> Agree with you caldwelldaniel26. Some people simply know it all I guess...It's pretty easy to peg who those people are after reading a few post/replies from them though. While there are some products that don't do as they claim, there are also a few that actually do exactly as they claim so people should not be stating something as fact unless they have tried them all for themselves. That's the sort of advice that turns new people off of sites such as this where they could get some help that they need.
> There are a couple of the bottled bacteria ones that do work pretty darn well. While I simply seed filters on my tanks inside I don't like taking media from my tanks to seed my Koi pond in the spring, or the tank I put my Koi in when I bring them in for the winter. So I have tried various products and found "Start Smart Complete" does in fact speed up the cycle by a huge amount of time, and also makes it perfectly safe for fish in 48hrs. A lot of pond keepers like myself use Start Smart as well as the Dr Tim's one and have been for years with great results.


Thanks Steve, I've also had great success with Startsmart Complete. I did add more than what the label said, but it worked fairly quickly. People come to this forum looking for advice because they are stressed out and don't know what to do. Sometimes it's best not to be so harsh or condescending and to offer opinions based on tried and true experience, not stereotyping all products based on one that didn't meet expectations.


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## Old Newbie (Feb 18, 2017)

Agree on the "Start Smart Complete"; it works within 48 hours, or it has for me. Used it when I set up my 75 gallon last spring; I used ammonia for several days prior to adding the fish just to be sure and it brought ammonia from 2ppm to 0ppm overnight each time ammonia was added.


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## mofish-14 (Aug 8, 2016)

Not sure if someone else mentioned this, but you should also test your tap water for ammonia. Sometimes that is also a contributing source of ammonia in an aquarium.


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## judyok (Aug 12, 2014)

Mofish makes a good point. My tap water comes out with ammonia at 1ppm.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

If your tap tests positive for ammonia that means your water treatment facility uses chloramine to treat the water. If you use a water conditioner like Prime, it will neutralize it long enough for the bacteria to process it. It should not last in the water column more than 24 hours. If ammonia is still present after 24 hours then there's a problem with the tank being cycled properly.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Dr. Tim's used to have great reports when Dr. Tim owned the company and the product was kept refrigerated and shipped overnight.

But more recent users of Dr. Tim's report less successful results.

caldwelldaniel26 has been telling us about Smart Start complete, but up until now my impression was not that test results would reliably be zero for ammonia and nitrite within 48 hours after adding a full bioload of fish. Also we were not getting that feedback from dozens of users...as yet.

Maybe we should start a topic on Smart Start Complete and collect success stories?


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## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> Dr. Tim's used to have great reports when Dr. Tim owned the company and the product was kept refrigerated and shipped overnight.
> 
> But more recent users of Dr. Tim's report less successful results.
> 
> ...


as well as bad / unsuccessful i guess will be fair...
:? opcorn: opcorn: :?


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> gillmanjr said:
> 
> 
> > Your tank isn't cycled yet. And the bottled bacteria products do not work. I don't care what anyone says, they don't do anything. It takes 3-4 weeks for a tank to cycle, you can add that bacteria until you're blue in the face, its still going to take 3-4 weeks. You're only options are putting the fish elsewhere until your tank is cycled or keeping your tank treated with Prime (or similar) and doing water changes every 24-48 hours. If you can find some media from an already established filter it would speed up the cycling process but thats the only option for that.
> ...


Every single one of those bacteria or aquarium starter products on the market says right on the instructions that you can add fish immediately. Go ahead and look at all of them (Seachem, API, Tetra, Fluval, Top Fin). Find me one person on this forum or any other who would recommend adding fish to a brand new tank on day 1 just because they dosed it with one of those products. You won't be able to. And its because of those products (and the ridiculous claims on the labels) that people find themselves in the situation that the OP is in. So once again, I say, they don't work and I wouldn't recommend to anyone that they bother with them.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

With the original version of Dr. Tim's this DID work.

Maybe Smart Start Complete is something new that at least shortens the wait. Like many fishkeepers, after cycling my first tank 10 years ago...I just use established media so I have not tried it.

There ARE a lot of posts from people using various bottled products with a bad result. Maybe we should not lump this one product in with the rest? Is there hope?


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Once again I will say you are wrong and that not every bottled bacteria product says that you can add fish on day one. You have a problem with admitting when you're wrong and that will not serve you well in life. You don't have enough experience to offer any definitive advice on this subject and I think you should realize that and concede. You're supposed to be an educated engineer and I've had to correct you on your own calculations when you built that stand because you press your fingers in your ears and refuse to listen to any other views. That type of attitude is not constructive on this forum and not welcomed by any means.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> Once again I will say you are wrong and that not every bottled bacteria product says that you can add fish on day one. You have a problem with admitting when you're wrong and that will not serve you well in life. You don't have enough experience to offer any definitive advice on this subject and I think you should realize that and concede. You're supposed to be an educated engineer and I've had to correct you on your own calculations when you built that stand because you press your fingers in your ears and refuse to listen to any other views. That type of attitude is not constructive on this forum and not welcomed by any means.


OK show me a bacteria product that says that. I already looked up Smartstart, thats not one of them. It says exactly the same thing as the rest of them.

And FYI, you didn't correct me on my calculations. You assumed that I was calculating a single point load, which I WASN'T. It was a distributed load calculation that I used but frankly I didn't feel like explaining it to you. Therefore I ignored you. But since you insist on bringing it up again.

I'll be waiting for a link to that magical bacteria product. If you provide it, not only will I respond in all caps that you are correct but I'll also buy it.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Nowhere on a bottle of Startsmart does it say that you can use the product for a fish-in cycle like you were saying in the previous post. It does work as directed when used properly, without fish in the tank.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> Nowhere on a bottle of Startsmart does it say that you can use the product for a fish-in cycle like you were saying in the previous post. It does work as directed when used properly, without fish in the tank.


Is this the stuff you are talking about?

https://www.amazon.com/StartSmart-Compl ... B007R5M4AA

It says right on the back of the bottle to add fish immediately and that the cycle will be completed in 24 hours. If its worked for you and actually cycled your tank in 24 hours like it says I'm not calling you a liar. But I would tend to think that there were other factors involved in that. And I'm willing to try it if you really say it works, but I still wouldn't follow the instructions and put the fish in right away.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

OK guys and gals, I think we scared away the OP so let's wait for an update from him/her.

The discussion on whether bottled or other bacteria products work as stated or in user experiences should be another separate topic or may already be found under Product Reviews.

As of today, I checked both my bottle of Start Smart Complete and their website and both state the product can be used the day the tank is set up AND fish can be added the same day. What is not mentioned is the number and size of fish that should be added so keep that in mind as well as to monitor for elevated ammonia and nitrite levels and proceed accordingly.


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

Deeda said:


> OK guys and gals, I think we scared away the OP so let's wait for an update from him/her.
> 
> The discussion on whether bottled or other bacteria products work as stated or in user experiences should be another separate topic or may already be found under Product Reviews.
> 
> As of today, I checked both my bottle of Start Smart Complete and their website and both state the product can be used the day the tank is set up AND fish can be added the same day. What is not mentioned is the number and size of fish that should be added so keep that in mind as well as to monitor for elevated ammonia and nitrite levels and proceed accordingly.


Well said. 
I think there have been some good posts that point out important facts that should be given thought too by all.


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## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

gillmanjr said:


> caldwelldaniel26 said:
> 
> 
> > gillmanjr said:
> ...


Well....Well....lookie here.....guess I'm the one you are looking for. I set up a 75 gallon tank several years ago. I filled it with water, 80 lbs. of sand, api stress coat plus, twelve 3" peacocks/haps and one bottle of Dr. Tim's. The whole setup process was less than 3 hours. No water changes for the first three months. We lost one fish about six months into it.


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

BlueSunshine said:


> Well....Well....lookie here.....guess I'm the one you are looking for. I set up a 75 gallon tank several years ago. I filled it with water, 80 lbs. of sand, api stress coat plus, twelve 3" peacocks/haps and one bottle of Dr. Tim's. The whole setup process was less than 3 hours. We lost one fish about six months into it.


Did your tank actually cycle within 24 or 48 hours (Nitrate and zero ammonia)? Also, was it the "old" version of Dr Tims that DJR was referencing? Was it kept refrigerated? I'm sincerely interested in knowing because if there is something that can truly do this I want to know what it is and I'm sure the OP would too.


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## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

Deeda said:


> The discussion on whether bottled or other bacteria products work as stated or in user experiences should be another separate topic or may already be found under Product Reviews.


here:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=431409 ...


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## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

raygano said:


> Hello All,
> 
> We have a 125 Gal tank we bought about 6 weeks ago.
> 
> ...


Do you have a fish or two missing, maybe stuck under a rock???


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## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

BlueSunshine said:


> Do you have a fish or two missing, maybe stuck under a rock???


i think by loosing he means that the fish are dying... may be?...


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## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

joselepiu said:


> BlueSunshine said:
> 
> 
> > Do you have a fish or two missing, maybe stuck under a rock???
> ...


Yeah...just wondering if the OP has accounted for all that were added to the tank.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I will admit that I was wrong about the labeling on Startsmart Complete but I still stand by it's efficacy as a product that helps cycle a new tank and drastically reduces the amount of time it takes to produce a healthy nitrogen cycle. It works as advertised for starting a new tank with a small bioload, but in instances where the tank is overstocked and there's already a considerable amount of nitrogenous waste build-up, it may take a couple of days to a week to complete a cycle using the product. I've used it mainly in the emergency type situations and that's been the case, but in the instances I've used it to start a tank from scratch, it has worked 100% as directed.


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## Steve C (Oct 9, 2011)

I don't think you were wrong Daniel...Did they change the instructions for it? I haven't read the instructions for a couple years since I started using it for starting my pond, but I'm sure it USE to say wait 24hrs to add fish.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I thought that's was it used to be also but the instructions on more recent bottles say to add fish immediately.


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## Cyphound (Oct 20, 2014)

To the original post. If your using prime water conditioner you will have readings of ammonia. The product does this. Are your fish healthy?


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## thornsja19 (Feb 4, 2017)

Just to add my 2 cents, Seachem Stability advises waiting over a week to let the cycle finish. So yeah, not all companies are dishonest and try to get you to add fish immediately...


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## gillmanjr (Jan 27, 2017)

thornsja19 said:


> Just to add my 2 cents, Seachem Stability advises waiting over a week to let the cycle finish. So yeah, not all companies are dishonest and try to get you to add fish immediately...


LOL not on the bottle of Stability that I have in my cabinet. It says you can add fish immediately. It doesn't INSTRUCT you to add fish immediately, but it says you can. Maybe they changed it.


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## joselepiu (Jul 22, 2017)

thornsja19 said:


> Just to add my 2 cents, Seachem Stability advises waiting over a week to let the cycle finish. So yeah, not all companies are dishonest and try to get you to add fish immediately...


how old is the bottle from where your are reading that?...

:-? :-? :-? ...


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## BobbyTwoSticks (Jan 18, 2018)

This is an older thread, but wanted to throw in something that helped me when I got started in this hobby. The biologically active filters that Angels Plus sells worked really well for me when I did a fish-in cycle.


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