# Ist death in 250 gallon tank



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

I believe this was my Taiwan Reef that I was waiting on him to color up which I hear can take a long time. The water was fine and gets changed 3 times a week. Nitrates were 40-80..hard to tell. Things were going so good in that tank. I cannot see any cause looking at him. I do not ever recall him starting to yellow up.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Was he eating? Feces thick and food colored? Can you tell whether he was male or female?

Nirate = 40ppm is the top of the safe level, but nitrates of 80ppm would not kill him.

I would do a 50% water change tonight and 50% in the morning to get back to 10ppm.


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> Was he eating? Feces thick and food colored? Can you tell whether he was male or female?
> 
> Nirate = 40ppm is the top of the safe level, but nitrates of 80ppm would not kill him.
> 
> I would do a 50% water change tonight and 50% in the morning to get back to 10ppm.


He seemed fine...eating food, never saw any thin white poop. Yesterday I remember now that there was a few moments of fish chasing each other a lot and the Williamsi female stayed under cover and then came out after a while and had a tear in one of her side fins. I think she and the male might have been doing something? Today they are both fine though.
I have a new job and classes so doing a water change is impossible till tomorrow evening.


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## Oscar6 (Aug 4, 2017)

I have to wonder how a 40-80 nitrate level exists with 3x weekly water changes. Nitrate creep cant be that high, unless the water changes are of very small volume. Fyi in that regard.. a large volume change is better than multiples of equal volume over the same time period. To be clearer, a 75% change every 6 days is better than 25% every 2 days.


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

Oscar6 said:


> I have to wonder how a 40-80 nitrate level exists with 3x weekly water changes. Nitrate creep cant be that high, unless the water changes are of very small volume. Fyi in that regard.. a large volume change is better than multiples of equal volume over the same time period. To be clearer, a 75% change every 6 days is better than 25% every 2 days.


I do mostly 50 percent water changes because the nitrates are rarely at 20 even with all my diligence .I have to think that food is deep in the holy rock and the dragon rock. I shake the rocks as I remove them but even then nitrates not way low.I am a small older lady with spunk but arthritis and I am living my dream while I can. Cannot do it all however but trying. Here is the tank:


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Try 75% changes (as long as you have been doing 50% weekly for a while) as they are no more physical effort than a 50% change and may help keep your nitrates below 20ppm.


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> Try 75% changes (as long as you have been doing 50% weekly for a while) as they are no more physical effort than a 50% change and may help keep your nitrates below 20ppm.


We are on the same page! I just did one 

I ran out of aquarium salt though..can I substitute epsom salt in same quantity?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

No. Are you sure you need to add aquarium salts? What are your test results for pH, KH and GH?


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> No. Are you sure you need to add aquarium salts? What are your test results for pH, KH and GH?


My tap water ph is 7.6 I am not sure of the others except that they are real low and someone suggested to leave the water alone and not try to tinker with those other numbers.


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

PS. here are the water parameters of our water here:
https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=5E3CA03A


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Did you already remove 75% of the water? And now you have no aquarium salt at all to allow you to refill?

I am more worried about the test results for pH, KH and GH from your tank.

I find it better to test both tap and tank with the same testers so you get comparable results.


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> Did you already remove 75% of the water? And now you have no aquarium salt at all to allow you to refill?
> 
> I am more worried about the test results for pH, KH and GH from your tank.
> 
> I find it better to test both tap and tank with the same testers so you get comparable results.


Yes I already changed the water. I put the prime and stability in. I had almost a cup of aquarium salt so I threw it in. Besides the epsom salts I have..a little over a cup left I also saved a bottle of Seachem Alkaline Buffer.


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

PS I also have a 40 gallon tank I need to change tonight with the Calvus and shell dwellers inside.


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

You probably are finished answering for today but I am going to have to change the water on the 40 gallon because it needs it. I wont add any epsom salt till I fine out what you think.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Add the buffer as directed on the bottle. It is import for your pH and KH and GH to be stable from before your change and after your change.

If you don't want to buy more commercial aquarium salt for future water changes, look in the Cichlid-forum Library for the buffer recipe. But I would use only the baking soda and skip the NaCl and the Epsom salts.


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> Add the buffer as directed on the bottle. It is import for your pH and KH and GH to be stable from before your change and after your change.
> 
> If you don't want to buy more commercial aquarium salt for future water changes, look in the Cichlid-forum Library for the buffer recipe. But I would use only the baking soda and skip the NaCl and the Epsom salts.


I am not understanding why I need to worry about the ph. I thought I was not supposed to mess with it and that 7.6 is fine. I am confused.

I do have baking soda so I can use that like salt?


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

naturlvr said:


> Oscar6 said:
> 
> 
> > I have to wonder how a 40-80 nitrate level exists with 3x weekly water changes. Nitrate creep cant be that high, unless the water changes are of very small volume. Fyi in that regard.. a large volume change is better than multiples of equal volume over the same time period. To be clearer, a 75% change every 6 days is better than 25% every 2 days.
> ...


Is it possible that the canisters are harbouring nitrates and could use a cleaning?
P.S, I stopped using salt a long time ago but if you do want to use it, try buying coarse sea salt from your local bulk barn (or equivelent). It's far cheaper than aquarium salts. I used to buy my baking soda from the same place.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yes filters should be clean and if you leave the feces in there it will show in your nitrate test. Use dechlorinated water to rinse the media so you don't kill the bacteria.

You can use baking soda instead of salt but not in the same proportions.

Because you don't want to change pH or GH or KH that is in your tank right now (because you have been using salt) by more than the smallest amount, you have to match new water you add to the parameters of the water that is in your tank now.

By adding aquarium salt you are already messing with pH, GH and KH. You may be able to transition to pH=7.6 but it has to be a gradual transition over a period of weeks or months.

Know that if you change your KH or GH it will impact your pH...they are interrelated.

Do not use NaCl at all. Baking soda usually does the trick, but you have to know your test results from tank and tap before you decide.


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

I think there is a bit of confusion here. Since May I have followed the same set of additives to all my aquariums. My ph today is 7.8. The tap water is the same. ALL my tanks are 7.8. I have never had issues with ph changing because I use the tap water and I never try to change it. Same is true for all my additives: Prime, Stability, and Aquarium salt just like always. One time I used an increase of aquarium salt for ICK in the 75 gallon tank. The extra aquarium salt did not kill ANY fish. I am really confused why now all of a sudden I should be tinkering with ph??? The nitrates are high but not dangerously high and I believe any nitrate in my tank is due to food settling in the holy rocks as I said. I ran out of aquarium salt about halfway thru the dose but I am not sure why we are focusing on it since it never ever was a problem and nothing has changed except I needed a little more..but I do not think that only half the dose of aquarium salt ( that is recommended on the container ) will cause the nitrates to go up. This whole thing was about a fish that died..when it could have been something innately wrong with the fish or he got bumped or whatever. I will not be tinkering when what has worked has been fine. The 240 gallon tank has a 60 gallon sump and it is maintained regularly. I feel like the advice I have followed is now the opposite. 
I have never and never will use table salt or any other kind of salt but aquarium salt. I was just wondering since I ran out halfway thru the dose, if I could substitute something else for it. I do not willy nilly start adding things without careful consideration and sound advice. thanks but this has taken a strange course to advice that is not what I have received in here in the past and nopt going chasing things that do not make sense to me and is the opposite of previous advice.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If you want to keep using aquarium salt, keep using aquarium salt. You ran out and asked if you could substitute Epsom salt and I said no.

Aquarium salt is not related to nitrates. It IS related to pH but as long as your pH is steady and you have been consistently adding aquarium salt it is OK to continue. You are talking about Malawi Salt commercial mix, correct?

Any nitrates over 40ppm are not safe, but also not a cause of death for your fish.


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> If you want to keep using aquarium salt, keep using aquarium salt. You ran out and asked if you could substitute Epsom salt and I said no.
> 
> Aquarium salt is not related to nitrates. It IS related to pH but as long as your pH is steady and you have been consistently adding aquarium salt it is OK to continue. You are talking about Malawi Salt commercial mix, correct?
> 
> Any nitrates over 40ppm are not safe, but also not a cause of death for your fish.


I use API Aquarium salt.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If you Google the ingredients you will see that it is 100% sodium chloride or NaCl. You could have used table salt as a substitute.

In the history of fish tanks it used to be common to add NaCl. Now it is used more for medicating things like ich than a weekly additive.

I would not change what you are doing (since your pH, GH and KH are stable) until and unless you want to mess with testing tap versus tank and transition to baking soda or stop using additives (other than dechlor) entirely.


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> If you Google the ingredients you will see that it is 100% sodium chloride or NaCl. You could have used table salt as a substitute.
> 
> In the history of fish tanks it used to be common to add NaCl. Now it is used more for medicating things like ich than a weekly additive.
> 
> I would not change what you are doing (since your pH, GH and KH are stable) until and unless you want to mess with testing tap versus tank and transition to baking soda or stop using additives (other than dechlor) entirely.


 Darn I just bought a huge supply of Aquarium salt.
Today my tanganyika tank is 40 Nitrates after changing the water 50% last night and the night before. I wonder if I need to clean out the shells? I am so exhausted from Nitrates. Looks like I am going to spend a LOT of time and money on water to keep changing large amounts of waters in my 3 tanks. UGH.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Regarding money, do you pay for water? Eventually you may be able to eliminate the cost of the salt, but stuck with the dechlorinator unless you have a private well with no chlorine.

Try squirting water from a turkey baster into each shell during a water change. You did the filters, right? Do you have nitrates in your tap water?


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> Regarding money, do you pay for water? Eventually you may be able to eliminate the cost of the salt, but stuck with the dechlorinator unless you have a private well with no chlorine.
> 
> Try squirting water from a turkey baster into each shell during a water change. You did the filters, right? Do you have nitrates in your tap water?


Yes I have to pay for Cary water. I will give you the Cary report of their treated water and tell me if they need and increase in GH.
I have a sump in two of my tanks..the 76 gallon tank has a Fluval FX4 canister. The canister is due to be changed next week. I change the socks in the pump weekly...or if they look like they need to be changed and washed with water.


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

You might want to click on this link to read the numbers better:
https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=5E3CA03A


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't see nitrate on there. I trust tests you do yourself with liquid reagents more than public results.


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

OK I will take it now.


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

The nitrate value of my tap water is 5


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

ps. KH in my tap water is 2 and the GH is 2


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

OK so nitrate should be zero from the tap. When you change water you are putting some back in. Not a lot but it is not ideal for removing nitrates.

Is your tap water softened? 2 is very low.


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

Can you suggest what i need to add per gallon of aquarium water. Or any recommendations.


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

i am reading I need to add Cichlid Lake Salt and Cichlid Trace .I guess I use it and test the water until I get to the desired amount of each? I am a bit confused still.


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

I read this:

I've been working on formulating my own salt mix for Tanganyikan
water, based on a breakdown of the prevalent anions and cations in the
lake, and data from my municipal water utility. The dilemma I'm
facing is that my results seem to indicate that the mixes others are
using are massive overkill!?! What I'm wondering is if my chemistry
is right, I suppose.

I ran across a compendium of articles on the Krib relating to
Tanganyikan water chemistry. There were two sets of data contained
therein regarding the subject:

Breakdown 1 (view this table in a fixed pitch font, with tab spacing
of 8 spaces, or squint):

Cations Anions
------- -------
35% Na+ 25% Cl-
30% Mg++ 2% SiO3--
10% Ca++ 13% SO4--
25% K+ 60% CO3--

This breakdown is echoed by a chart I have in Loiselle's
FG_to_African_Cichlids, but from which post the poster obtained it.
(Note: Please give sources when posting data.)

Breakdown 2 (by Dr. Kuferath, in Brichard's FoLT):

Salt mg/L
____________________________
Na2CO3 anhydrous	125
KCl 59
KNO3 0.5
Li2CO3 4
CaCO3 30
MgCO3 144
Al2(SO4)3*18H2O 5
K2SO4 4
Na2SO4 1
FeCl3*6H2O 0.5
Na3PO4*12H2O 0.4
Na2SiO3 13.5

(Q: I'm assuming that the notation *xH2O means the compound is
hydrous. When calculating the atomic mass, do I add in the mass of an
appropriate number of H2O molecules?)

I'm assuming the first data set is more accurate, since it is based on
a larger data set, and is more recent. Also, it's easier to work
with.  My blundering analysis of the second set gave values pretty
close to the first set, as well.

The first big bungle I made (and this is a word to the wise) was in
assuming that the percentages given in the table were relative
concentrations of the ions themselves (i.e. there is 2.5 times as much
K+ as Ca++). If this were true, the lake would be negatively charged.
 The percentages given are of charge due to the presence of these
ions. I'll combine both types of data in this here chart:

Cations %charge	%total Anions %charge	%total
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Na+ 35	44 Cl- 25	40
Mg++ 30	19 SiO3-- 2	2
Ca++ 10	6 SO4-- 13	10
K+ 25	31 CO3-- 60	48

At first I was boggled -- I didn't know the specific gravity/density
of the water. How would I go on? Then I did a big Homer Simpson
*DOH!*. I knew GH (sum of Mg and Ca (primarily) concentrations), so I
could base it all on that! I shot for a value of 150 ppm CaCO3 (8.4
dH) GH. (Low, I know, but within given ranges. My fish already seem
happy enough. This is just sport. :]) By my calculations, this
would give a KH of 288 ppm CaCO3 (16.1 dH).

Well, I formulated my recipe, went at it, and was successful. If
anyone would like to see the process I went through, I can post that,
as well. I used baking soda (NaHCO3), epsom salts (MgSO4), and salt
substitute (KCl). My problem is that I had to add more sodium and
chloride than is present in the lake in order to get proper K+ and
CO3-- (HCO3-) levels. I'm planning on looking into Muriate of Potash,
which I BELIEVE is KaHCO3 to clear this up. Can anyone verify that?
I won't post the exact amounts, since this should be dependent on
initial water conditions. I will say that they are MUCH less than
I've heard others use (shoulda figured that out before I bought 4# of
epsom salts -- guess i can always soak my head), which brings me to
the next part of my maxipost.

One post I saw (from the compendium on the Krib) -- the only one which
assumed one started with distilled water -- indicated one should use
one tablespoon of epsom salt (et al) per 5 gallons. This doesn't
sound right to me, and this is why (please check my calculations):

1 tbsp MgSO4 (epsom salts) = 15ml MgSO4.
5 gal H2O = 18.9l H2O.

This gives us a concentration of 15ml MGSO4 / 18.9l = 0.79 ml/l MgSO4.

The density (specific gravity) of MgSO4 is 2.66 kg/l = 2660 mg/ml,
which means 0.79 ml/l MgSO4 = 2100 mg/L MgSO4 (to some this sounds
right out already, I'm sure, but I'll keep going).

Now we need to convert to this to an equivalency in ppm CaCO3. The
(approximated, based on atomic #) molecular weight of MGSO4 is 104
g/mol. This gives us 2100 mg/l MgSO4 = 20 mmol/l MgSO4.

To get an equivalent in ppm CaCO3, we multiply by the molecular mass
(approximated at 100 g/mol) of CaCO3, right? This give us 2000 mg/L
CaCO3 = 2000 ppm CaCO3 = 112 dH!?!

Am I wrong somewhere in my calculations? I'd like to be, since the
general consensus seems to be that MUCH more than what I'm adding is
used by most. Thing is, that when I tried this with a 5 gallon water
sample (adding my formulation), I ended up with 9dH GH, 15 dH KH, and
somewhere in the low 8's pH (I can't READ the red/oranges in that
****** test kit!), which is right about where I wanna be....

Basically I am reading that I should add baking soda and epsom salts but I have no ida as to the quantity for each tank.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

So it comes down to simply this. Your pH is fine so all you want to do is keep it stable.

You want your KH to be more than 4 drops. Mine is 7 drops and it works fine. This is what keeps your pH stable.

Since the readings are hard to get exact and pH and GH can bounce around a bit and the chemicals don't always give you exactly the result you desire...just focus on getting your KH to be 5 or 6 or 7.

Measure a couple of gallons (measured gallons) of tap water into a bucket and add 1t baking soda/gallon and test. Stop when your KH is between 5 and 7.

Then that would be a good additive. You don't need to go to 15 drops KH. Less is more.


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> So it comes down to simply this. Your pH is fine so all you want to do is keep it stable.
> 
> You want your KH to be more than 4 drops. Mine is 7 drops and it works fine. This is what keeps your pH stable.
> 
> ...


 Excellent reasoning. Thank you!


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

naturlvr said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> > So it comes down to simply this. Your pH is fine so all you want to do is keep it stable.
> ...


So it took 20 for 2 gallons. That would mean 10 KH for 4 gallons of water and 8 gallons for KH of 5 per tsp. Right? So if you live in this area that has Cary water you can get off cheaply instead of buying products that essentially do the same thing for lots of money...you can use a tsp of baking soda per 8 gallons of water. Not bad.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

20 teaspoons of baking soda in 2 gallons of water gave you what KH?


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> 20 teaspoons of baking soda in 2 gallons of water gave you what KH?


LOL.No it took 20 drops of KH solution for the concentration of one teaspoon of baking soda in 20 gallons of water...sorry.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You did one teaspoon and not one tablespoon?

You are doing this to your tap water?

You want your drops to be 5, 6 or 7 for KH.


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

I put one teaspoon of baking soda in 2 gallons of tap water. It took 20 drops of KH solution to convert the color. So one teaspoon of baking soda gives a KH of 20 in two gallons of water. ..which is not what I want. To get a 5 KH I would need to add one teaspoon of baking soda in 8 gallons of water gives a KH of 5 ...... which is what I want.....correct?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Ah to get the KH you want you changed the amount of water instead of the amount of baking soda.

In theory, yes what you said should work.

Before I did it I would try the actual ratio and test. So 1/4 teaspoon in 2 gallons from the tap and then test.


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> Ah to get the KH you want you changed the amount of water instead of the amount of baking soda.
> 
> In theory, yes what you said should work.
> 
> Before I did it I would try the actual ratio and test. So 1/4 teaspoon in 2 gallons from the tap and then test.


 Thank you! Yes I took it from another vantage point...yours is simple. I will test it.


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

OK I got 7 drops before it turned orange....which is still in range ...correct?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yes but see the difference? What happens if you do 1/8 teaspoon for 2 gallons?


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## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

Yes it makes a big difference that is why I count on you to validate my numbers. Thanks DJ


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