# Sick Fish, no deaths...yet.



## poeticpyro (Jun 15, 2008)

Okay here's what the setup is...
I have kept fish for 6 years, but am just getting into cichlids... well kind of...
I got into them about two years back when I got two angelfish (then the size of a quarter, now 8" from top to bottom fin...simply incredible!). I now have converted my 125gallon tank into a cichlid tank.

I have 3 severums (2 green, 1 gold), 1 firemouth, 1 blue acara, 1 jack dempsey, 1 giraffe nosed catfish, 1 angelicus catfish, 1 green terror and 3 convicts.

I don't think I'm overstocked... the tank is cleaned biweekly and is on two Eheim 2217 filters. 
all water parameters are within range...

here are the questions/ concerns...

the green terror, firemouth and jack dempsey all got this film over their eyes...been treating (as directed, but slightly less) with MelaFix. *doing less because of the catfish. Everyone's eyes have gotten clearer and back to normal except for the green terror (2"). The other fish in the tank range from 2"-5"...freaking severum grew like no other. 
I was thinking it was velvet or fin rot due to the ragged fins... am I right? is there something I need to do, stop doing?
(was planning on treating them until the cloudyness went away).

Two of my severums, the largest two have been LIP LOCKING!! I'm worried because they are actually hurting the other one, there are small wounds developing so I put in some stress coat to help... they won't stop doing it and have never done it before... the big one (green) really has darkened up and is displaying lots of colors especially in his face and is mainly locking with the yellow one...smaller and not as bright... so I'm wondering if this is normal, mating, fighting, cause of concern...

also the green terror is worrying me because he's hardly eating...

i know this isn't the most informative but I don't know what to type.... I'm new to these guys and haven't had problems with my angels, curviceps or blood parrot (adopted it...not really sure of my position on a man-made fish...) anyway... any tips or questions I need to answer would be helpful... thanks!


----------



## poeticpyro (Jun 15, 2008)

Tank: 125 gallons
Inhabitants: 3 severums, 1 blue arcara, 1 jack, 1 firemouth, 1 green terror, 1 gibby, 3 female convicts, 1 giraffe nosed-cat and 1 angelicus cat.

Tank set up: almost 2 years....

Params: Temp: 79. pH: 6.0 Ammonia: 0ppm Nitrate: less than 5ppm and Nitrite: 0ppm

I've had these fish for about two months... Mainly they have a cloudy film or spot on their eye... had one green terror die and am thinking he gave this to them, even though he was quarantined for a week or so. Some ragged fins, but nothing severe. Severums have been locking lips and making the other one bleed (i'm assuming they have teeth). Don't know if this is a symptom of illness or breeding...

Being fed: Hikari cichlid floating pellets and wardley flakes for the small convicts. Shrimp pellets and an algae wafer also go in...this is twice a day. Sounds like a lot of food, but the giraffe catfish is roughly 8".

Biweekly water changes and the filters are cleaned once a month (2 eheim 2217s are on the tank). It is also aerated. Stress Coat is applied to the water to get rid of the chlorine etc. I also add some aquarium salt, but it's freshwater salt and I add 1 tsp per 5 gallons.

Tank is currently being treated with MelaFix, but I need to know if what I'm doing is right... the catfish are weak because of it, other fish seem unaffected and the eyes are beginning to clear up, but I just want to know what you all think is causing it, what it is and what I'm doing wrong. Thanks!


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Cloudy eyes and other eye issues are usually an indicator of one of 3 things...Either poor water quality, injury, or a bacterial infection.

What are the water parameters on the tank?

It sounds like your fish are all maturing, and you may need to make some changes in your stock list to alleviate the stress of aggression

If the problems are stemming from water quality, daily water changes and Melafix will help.

It does sound like you're putting alot of food into the tank, which turns into alot of waste. I would also cut back considerably on my feeding until I got things under control.

Any signs of cottony or fuzzy growths externally?


----------



## MetalHead06351 (Oct 3, 2007)

Your fish are probably beating on each other because your tank is a bit overstocked. Cichlids will thin each other out until there is a good balance and few enough cichlids have their own territories. If I were you, I would get rid of a few of the fish. Personally I would keep 2 of the severums, the firemouth, the Jack dempsey, and the 2 catfish, although I think that the giraffe syno gets 20something inches, if I remember right. You might be able to fit another mid sized cichlid, but I wouldn't use the convicts because if you don't have all female or all male there is a good chance they will breed and cause you a whole new set of problems.


----------



## poeticpyro (Jun 15, 2008)

water perams are listed...

what's wrong with the stocking? (not trying to be rude, just was told they're all fine together)... only agression lately is severum on severum, but it's only the two larger ones they leave the little one alone.

no cottony growths...what does that mean if they exist? I've had that before in a tropical tank, thought it was fungus. I'll continue to change the water daily...just a 25% change?

thanks for the speedy reply!


----------



## poeticpyro (Jun 15, 2008)

the giraffe nosed cat is going up for sale once he gets larger...have a home for him already he's pushing 8" now.

i honestly didn't think it was overstocked... seems like there are no fish in there... the convicts are all female...they can move to one of my smaller tanks since they don't get big.


----------



## MetalHead06351 (Oct 3, 2007)

it always seems that way when the fish are small, but you have to realize that a few of your fish get 1 foot or larger. Most people who first start out in cichlids overstock, including myself. My first cichlid tank was a 55 gallon with 2 jewel cichlids, a jack dempsey, a green terror, a jaguar, 2 salvinis, and a belley crawler pike. Its a common mistake. This is a good site to learn from, all the people here helped me sort things out, there are people on here who know ALOT about cichlids. A good thing to do is do research before you buy any fish, or even just post a question on this site and make sure that what you want to do has a a good chance of working. I think that with a few modifications you could have a tank with just a few large, beautiful, happy fish.


----------



## poeticpyro (Jun 15, 2008)

i just don't know what to keep...

don't know which ones would work together...

how many could be kept in the 125... i was told up to 10 cichlids...so i thought i was fine since not all of them are the MASSIVE ones..

would getting rid of a few of them make them grow any quicker?


----------



## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

G'day *poeticpyro*,



> how many could be kept in the 125... i was told up to 10 cichlids...so i thought i was fine since not all of them are the MASSIVE ones...


Would like to know who told you this? It's subjective as to how many cichlids can be kept in any size tank. A lot depends on the adult size each cichlid will reach, the size of territory each cichlid or pair might claim when spawning, the general temperament of the species. Also some cichlids do better with multiples of thier species in the tank.

Yes you could easily keep ten cichlids in your tank. It's all about achieving the right mix with the right species.

As for your starting list, well you've got a mixture of South American and Central American cichlids. In general CA cichlids have a more aggressive temperament than most SA cichlids, of course fish like Green & Red Terrors are an exception to this generalisation.

I can't tell you which ones to keep, as each of us has different tastes. As *MetalHead06351* suggested, some research should help you to decide. I'd start by reading the profiles of each of your cichlids here at C-F. If you don't know thier scientific name, google thier common name to find out, and you'll also find more profiles as well.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

What are the dimensions of the tank?

Those are some highly territorial fish you have - especially the JD and GT...Once they are _all_ fully mature, they might not be overly happy to share the space you have to offer. I'd be very surprised if you're able to keep all these fish together long term.

Cottony growths usually indicate fungus or bacterial infections.

Sorry, I missed the water parameters. What type test kits are you using? Strips, or liquid reagent? How old are they?

You might go with a 30-40% daily water change and Melafix and see if you get any improvement.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I've combined these two threads that you had posted in two different folders, since they are basically the same thread.


----------



## poeticpyro (Jun 15, 2008)

okay here's the update:

first off though thanks for combining the threads, I am new to the site and couldn't figure out how to delete the old post.

This is what's happened... eyes on everyone cleared up...so the melafix and water changes did the trick. (did it for roughly 5 days, just wanted to post a thread on here in case it got worse or I was doing the wrong thing). I'm using strips, just bought them...but am going test-kit hunting soon...these are pretty ****ty...made by Jungle and yeah...not a big fan... so if you have any suggestions on test kits, do share. No clue what caused the cloudyness unless it was from one fish that was quarantined who did eventually die once he was introduced...didn't show any symptoms of sickness after 2 weeks in the other tank.

Tank if "re-stocked" will look like this...

2 green severums, 1 gold (if the one green and gold are a pair the other severum's going)
1 "blue acara" looks like my jack... but has a different temperment
1 massive green terror... he's about 4" but shy as can be... think it's because he's new and was only $5...couldn't resist...
1 gibby 
1 giraffe cat...which as i've said...he gets much bigger and he's gone... they're notorious for breaking tanks when they get large simply because they throw things..
3 convicts...if they die, they die, but they're so cute!

is this better?

tank dimensions...
6 feet long X 18" deep X 24" tall... I was told it was a 125...
it has two Eheim 2217s off of it and gets a biweekly water change at the moment, but am willing to step it up to weekly...it is also aerated.

Really don't want to get rid of the jack and the other fish... was told they'd be fine... there are lots of hiding places now and a good amount of plants, driftwood and rocks.

was told that my tank should be fine with them by numerous people in pet stores, fish specialty stores...so I am a bit shocked... I even asked about when they were full grown and got the "go ahead." They do not chase each other or fight, unless it's the jack that's doing it and he's not even that large...3" or so.

do Jack dempsey's and blue acaras look similar? mine look almost identical, just personalities are opposites...the jack's mean... blue acara hides now...because of the jack i'm thinking.

please don't think i'm ignoring all of you, i truly am trying to hear you all out...it just hurts to have spent so much on these guys only to hear i might need to give some up.

thank you all for your help and advice...


----------



## MetalHead06351 (Oct 3, 2007)

jack dempseys and blue acaras do not look alike, but blue acaras look alot like green terrors when they are smaller. And you will probably be better off without the third severum, between them and the green terror you have whats going to be 8 feet of fish in a 6 foot tank.


----------



## poeticpyro (Jun 15, 2008)

how?

Severums are 12" each max...probably takes them forever to get that big and a green terror is about 8" fully grown according to sites and books...


----------



## poeticpyro (Jun 15, 2008)

cichlids aren't worth keeping if you can only have three in 125 gallons of water... that just doesn't seem right.


----------



## MetalHead06351 (Oct 3, 2007)

my mistake my math was a little off on that one, what was I thinking? I have a 125g too, and I have 4 cichlids, about to get a fifth. To be able to keep more cichlids in a tank, you have to pick the right ones to keep together. Severums get big, therefore you can keep less fish in your tank, so do green terrors. if you had smaller growing fish you could add a few more. The other thing about cihlid tanks is you CAN add other fish. In with my 4 cichlids I have 2 polypterus senegalus, 2 red tailed sharks, synodontis ocellifer, s. eupterus, 12 giant danios, yoyo loach, a bunch of tiger barbs, and a bristlenose pleco. It is very full looking. If you are unhappy with how empty your tank looks, I would add a school of fish, higher bodied tetras or barbs, I can tell you that giant danios work great. Also I would add a cleanup crew, you could do plecos, larger catfish, loaches, anything that gets big enough.
And in my opinion, even if you could only keep 3 in a 125g, it would still be worth it. Cichlids are smarter and much more interactive with their tankmates, environment, and you. I am certain that if you had the right mix you would be happier than you would be with all the fish you currently have, they would bigger, healthier and alot more colorful. And your severums will grow quicker than you would imagine, especially in a big tank.


----------



## poeticpyro (Jun 15, 2008)

ah ok...

i just don't know what's compatible...

i have catfish and a gibby at the moment...

want to keep the severums and the green terror and the blue acara...the jack can go, but that's just because i think he's too..."mean" he's soooo cute though...jet black at the moment and stunning fins and colors, best looking fish in the tank by far. the convicts are awesome too and i heard they're good for being distraction fish...so i really don't know... the profiles on this site aren't as helpful as i thought they'd be.

i refuse to do tiger barbs...giant danios maybe... just because they're a good flash of silver/gold kind of... *sigh* i feel like just getting out of the hobby...wanted to just do purely cichlid and was told by SO many people I wasn't overstocked...come here and it's like...get rid of the fish you've been growing for months...


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

poeticpyro said:


> the profiles on this site aren't as helpful as i thought they'd be.
> 
> ...wanted to just do purely cichlid and was told by SO many people I wasn't overstocked...come here and it's like...get rid of the fish you've been growing for months...


I'm not sure what you find lacking in the profiles? Is it because they don't say what you can house with what?

We can get away with some pretty strange things when cichlids are small, and we've all been in your position at one time or another, except for those who really did some serious homework before ever setting up a tank! (I didn't.)

If you want alot of different species, why not start all over with an all male Malawi tank?


----------



## poeticpyro (Jun 15, 2008)

i was told that was impossible...so i'm very pissed off... i wanted africans...got stuck with what i have and have fallen in love...only to hear that they need to be given away.

really not that pleased...
and yes that's mainly what's lacking... i know multiple combinations are possible, but they're just very... brief and don't help much when you're getting into the hobby...i hoped to see more about their behaviour, not just agressive, mildly agressive... that doesn't say much honestly... i have a 6" green terror...he doesn't touch anyone in the tank...no nipping no chasing...nothing. he's almost full grown (10" max..ish)... and he's this peaceful... yeah... not helpful at all... and he's a SA, but the JD is a CA and I've seen so many people with mixed "american" tanks... so... it's frustrating and confusing. I'm not saying tell me what to put together, but at the same time... given what I have I want to know why it doesn't work... when I've been told at the places I bought them all that it does... come here to have others tell me not, but just say... when they get big...
smallest fish at the moment is a 3" firemouth... not that attatched to him, had a pair he killed the other one, replaced it and he killed it again, since there's no more FM in the tank he's peaceful.

just really am hurt, not trying to be rude, just upset that this isn't working... i've had enough headaches with fish and only to find out i have more...it sucks.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I think what you have to look at with some of the fish you're trying to keep is the space and territory that the single fish can claim. That's your biggest obstacle. As far as dietary needs and water requirements, temperament and potential size, that's really all _I_ need from a profile. I think we're fortunate to have forums like this to get the rest of the information we need. I can't imagine how to even begin to set up a profile system that would list all possible tank mates! That would be a huge undertaking, because it's always going to depend on the needs of the individual fish and the size of the tank.

The problem with most LFS is that they are only out to make a sale. I've been keeping fish for almost 38 years, so I'm not totally unarmed when I walk into a shop and see that they have 30G requirements listed for a fish that can reach a foot in length. Everyone doesn't have that advantage! Many of the big chain stores have some of the most ludicrous tank sizes listed for these highly territorial cichlids, and you want to trust them, but you just can't.

Just know that most of us have made the same mistakes, and spent a fair amount of time (and money) straightening them out once we learned otherwise.

At 6 inches, your GT isn't what I would consider "almost full grown".

It isn't that you can't keep some of the fish that you have. If you want to keep alot of different species in _this_ tank, I would suggest starting over with Malawi cichlids. If you choose carefully, they do well overstocked, and there are many here who will be more than happy to help you out.


----------



## poeticpyro (Jun 15, 2008)

i want to keep what i have... just don't have the money...

don't know what to pitch and what to keep...

this is the current stock..

1 FM (definitely male)
3 female convicts
3 severums (2 green..1 gold)
1 JD (black with blue lips and mainly blue everywhere else, long pointy fins...thinking it's a male)
1 "blue acara" looks like the jack, different temperment and fins, but coloration is similar
1 GT
1 Gibby
1 angelicus cat
1 giraffe nosed cat (will be sold if it gets much bigger)

just want to know where to thin it...don't know who can go with who anymore...everyone seems peaceful...minus the jack...

doubt i have money to start over... and am pissed because i was told i couldn't have africans mixed... did research and it pretty much said similar things...plus... the pH of the water here is lower, which makes keeping SA and CA easier... don't most africans like basic water?


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I wouldn't mix Africans in with what you have, so if that's what they told you, they were right. I also wouldn't mix Tanganyikan cichlids with Malawi cichlids, or haps and peacocks with mbuna...So, in a round about way, they might have been giving you proper advice.

I would check with the LFS and see if they might be willing to do some trading. :thumb:

What's your favourite out of what you have now? Pick a species you really want to keep, and then build the tank around that. Post a thread in the appropriate forum for that species, and see what others have with them.


----------



## poeticpyro (Jun 15, 2008)

thanks!

i know to not mix the lakes and all that... but they said africans can be species only minus labs and some little blue and yellow fish...which turned me off to them...

i know to not mix africans with what i have now... and what i have... as long as i can keep quite a few... i'm willing to work with...they've taken my heart...


----------



## MetalHead06351 (Oct 3, 2007)

If this is what you curently have, and are definitly holding on to the catfish,
1 FM
3 female convicts 
3 severums 
1 JD1 blue acara
1 GT 
1 Gibby 
1 angelicus cat 
1 giraffe nosed cat
Her are some suggestions on what you could do:
3 severums, 1 (jd,gt,acara,FM)-2 severums, and 2(jd,gt,acara,FM)-3 cons, 3(jd,gt,acara,FM)-jd,gt,acara,FM, and maybe a convict or 2. whatever you go with, I would still add a school of something to bring more activity to the tank, it really does make a big difference. And personally, I think that if you have fallen in love with the fish you have, africans might not cut it for you. They don't have the personality of ca\sa cichlids, which is why you can keep more in a tank.


----------



## poeticpyro (Jun 15, 2008)

metalHead:

Thanks for understanding... 
I think I'm going to try this:

1GT, 1 blue acara, 2 severums, (keep the convicts unless they get too bullied, then move them to the empty 25gal) and some Giant Danios...or some other type of dither... probably about 9 of them... just because I know they like to school in bigger groups.

I love my jack, but he's a mean SOB...wish I knew someone to give him to and not just give him to the petstore...

can firemouths live with angelfish?


----------



## MetalHead06351 (Oct 3, 2007)

sounds like a good setup. :thumb: you could add more dithers than 9 if you wanted to, but that amount would still get the job done. Maybe you could try posting your jd on the trading post, maybe someone in your area would be interested. If not, if you bring him to the lfs you should try to get a discount on whatever fish you pick up. And no, fm's and angels are a bad idea. It might work if you have a very passive fm, but chances are it will torment the angels to death.
Having said all that, congratulations on working everything out. You have definitly decided to do whats right for your fish and they will reward you for it with better coloration, less health problems, and much more interaction between the fish, and even with you.


----------



## poeticpyro (Jun 15, 2008)

i'm just glad i can keep the blue acara... you have no idea how much i love that fish...and the GT was $5 and was about 5" when I got him... he's up to 6" now... LONG long fins... but shy... think it's because of the JD... little 3" bugger just keeps trying to chase... want to keep him, but don't have a tank for him.. a 25gal is just too small.. i mean for now, he'd be fine, but... i'd rather give him and maybe get most of my dithers paid for...

could i do danios and something else? I just don't know how many to do... I've heard with schooling fish it's not exactly 1" of fish per gallon, it's a little less...like .5" of fish just because they like being together... I want to get a royal pleco again, but they get big... and the cat... well.. keeping the angelicus...ditching the giraffe if he gets much bigger... i posted some pictures a while back on the picture threads..

thanks again!


----------



## MetalHead06351 (Oct 3, 2007)

you could definitly do 2 schools of fish, just make sure that they are big enough when you get them so that they are not bitesized.


----------



## poeticpyro (Jun 15, 2008)

any suggestions?

i want giant danios...something colorful would be awesome... NO Tiger Barbs...hate them... love the stripes, but just hated keeping them...

and roughly how many...? i don't want to overstock again...giant danios get big...like 4-5" and I will probably do about 9 of them...unless more is better...


----------



## MetalHead06351 (Oct 3, 2007)

I hear that black skirt tetras do well, but i've only ever kept danios, tiger barbs, and swordtails with my cichlids. Swordtails are a terrible idea by the way.


----------



## poeticpyro (Jun 15, 2008)

hmmm...just want something colorful...maybe i'll just do danios and see if anything strikes my fancy...

drama with the tank:

my "blue acara" was a female jack... the male jack and her spawned... the male's been given away... the female will be traded in so all that's in the tank right now is...

2 severums (pair most likely)
1 green terror (has gold fins)
1 gibby
2 catfish

(want to add.... 9 danios and 1 b/n)


----------



## poeticpyro (Jun 15, 2008)

other question...

in the 20 gal... could i put in the convicts with the firemouth?


----------



## MetalHead06351 (Oct 3, 2007)

not a good idea, 29 gallon tanks are what is usually suggested as a single specimen fm or a pair of convicts.


----------



## poeticpyro (Jun 15, 2008)

ok...

just the FM it is... know it's a little small, but I don't want to get rid of him!!


----------



## ksane (Mar 19, 2008)

I know this is 4 days old but I wanted to point something out. It sounds like you're confusing "bio-load stocking" with "psychological stocking". 2 Cichlids (such as 2 male Midas) can be psychologically overstocked in a 1200 gallon tank. But their bio-load would only take up about 120 gallons or so. A breeding pair of Convicts with an Oscar in a 300 gal tank would more than likely kill the Oscar. Cichlids need tons of room because they're territorial, that's why you can't stock it according to bio-load, you have to stock cichlid tanks psychologically. You have to read and read (and read more) then through trial and error you figure out which cichlids can live together. Make any sense? I hope so because I've almost confused myself 
I've got 4 Blue Acara/Green Terrors (probably Terrors) that I THINK are all female but I don't know. I'm real attached to them so I know how you feel about yours. I'm just hoping like crazy the 4 will get along when older so I can keep them all in a 125 gal or so. If not....it's get rid of some or get another tank. Because fish refuse to read the rulebooks.


----------

