# Wild Caught Question



## heatwave (Oct 15, 2012)

How do you know if a speciman is wild caught? For example, a frontosa....I have read that they have Lake Spots, then I read that they don't always have Lake Spots....is there any way to tell if a frontosa is a wild caught, or is it just a matter of taking the seller's word for it.....Wild Caughts sell for so much more than f1....for example....how does a buyer know?


----------



## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

There is no such thing as "Lake Spots". You cannot tell, you just have to take the word of the seller.


----------



## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Fogelhund said:


> There is no such thing as "Lake Spots". You cannot tell, you just have to take the word of the seller.


Gotta disagree (respectfully of course  ). I have seen pictures, I had one of my wild kap females with them, and my alpha male Mikula has them. They most certainly exist.

I have a friend that has been importing Zaires from the beginning and was one of TR's chosen importers in the US. I have not seen his equal with knowledge of the lake. "He is both wise and powerful" Gandalf. I will call him tomorrow for his opinion.

Now Fogelhund, ever time I make such bold statements, I usually get humbled :lol: Please tell me why you do not believe lake spots exist.

IMHO,
Russ


----------



## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Yes, there can be bacterial markings, or other markings... and sometimes wild fish have these, and I've seen tank raised fish with these. What I meant, and perhaps I should have clarified, is that not all wild fish have "lake spots" and there is no such thing as spotting on fish to determine whether a fish is wild. I've probably only ever had a couple of wild fish with these markings, and between fish I've helped import, or kept myself, these marks have only been on a handful of thousands of fish.


----------



## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

With experience you can just tell.
So many small things.
When initially imported they need time to settle into captivity, with the right care they can become truly stunning specimens.
It is normal that the fish are of mixed sizes as individuals of different ages are collected side by side.
Certain physical attributes may look more pronounced e.g. lips and head structure. Wild caught Tanganyikan cichlids will have the proportioned bodies and shape that is true to their species grown in a hostile food short environment. Often with tank bred stocks and pond bred stocks these attributes are dulled down or lost.
Within a batch of stock of the same species and variant there will be some variation in colouration as they can be from different parents and unrelated to each other.
Wild caught Tanganyikan cichlids are more demanding and therefore harder to maintain than tank or pond bred stocks and are not recommended for a hobbyists first attempt at keeping Tanganyikan cichlids.
It kind of helps to have seen a lot of wild imports. There was a move to give em paperwork but as it would increase the price of genuine WC if enforced the idea kind of died. Yep WC and African can kind of get confused. Esp with stuff bred by Cichlids of Burundi and others. Not that its not great stuff. Just not WC.

Of caurse any guy with WC is kind of happy to give you more info. Any with dodgy stuff tend to be evasive or "not know" the location of collection and who exactly collected them.

Though with a few types the collection site is just a story made up to cover the exact location. Sadly some collectors try to protect their buisnesses and give deliberatly missleading info.

All the best James


----------



## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Fogelhund said:


> Yes, there can be bacterial markings, or other markings... and sometimes wild fish have these, and I've seen tank raised fish with these. What I meant, and perhaps I should have clarified, is that not all wild fish have "lake spots" and there is no such thing as spotting on fish to determine whether a fish is wild. I've probably only ever had a couple of wild fish with these markings, and between fish I've helped import, or kept myself, these marks have only been on a handful of thousands of fish.


We are on the same page


----------



## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Razzo said:


> Fogelhund said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, there can be bacterial markings, or other markings... and sometimes wild fish have these, and I've seen tank raised fish with these. What I meant, and perhaps I should have clarified, is that not all wild fish have "lake spots" and there is no such thing as spotting on fish to determine whether a fish is wild. I've probably only ever had a couple of wild fish with these markings, and between fish I've helped import, or kept myself, these marks have only been on a handful of thousands of fish.
> ...


To be honest I think lake spots are more likely to be caursed in holding ponds or breeding ponds. Lots of direct imports do not have em. Go figure.

All the best James


----------



## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

I ran this thread by the friend I mentioned and here is his reply...



My Friend said:


> Yes they do prove they are wild, and i have never once seen a spot on an f1 specimen, and I have seen thousands of them. The source of the spotting is a food source in Tanganyikan Waters. It's origin is a snail, that Frontosa do feed on. It is not contagious nor does it move with breeding so it is not contagious. It is the black pigment pigment in the fish, and the snail has a protein that causes the pigment to cause pigment spotting in odd places that are unpredictable. I think the fact that this very same spotting on tank raised or f1 fish is false. Or the spotting itself is not being recognized or explained well enough to compare it to the actual cause. You really only see it with fronts, as this source(this snail) resides on the bottom of any given collection location.


----------



## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I do not dispute WC fish can have em. Via these snails. Birds also poop into holding and breeding ponds which have snails. Yep they too can have/get lake spots. (To be honest I am unsure this is the only way of getting black skin markings on these fish)
So you can get none WC with lake spots and WC (from areas without lots of these paracytes or snails) without.

Erm I have also seen shallow water species with lake spots. snails and this paracyte do not only reside in the deapths.

All the best James


----------



## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

I have had two colonys of F1 Tropheus that developed the black spots, neither of these colonies had them to start with, but developed them over time. In both cases, the spots went away 100% when the fish were moved to tanks with better filtration and water quality.


----------



## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

A good exchange  I am at the same point where I started.

1) I have never seen lake spots of F1 cyphos.
2) I have seen them on some wild cyphos.
3) I have never seen these spots fade or disappear on those same wild cyphos nor have I heard of anyone else's.
4) I vote for the protein concept over paracyte one.

Can't comment on a bird eating a snail and pooping in a pond (I am not willing to send any neurotransmitters across the synaptic cleft in my cranial neurons to consider it beyond this reply). African pond with same snails - possible.

My own personal conclusion: When I see a cypho with lake spots - that tells me that it is a wild fish.

IMHO,
Russ


----------



## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

I've seen fish with similar black marks in tank raised. Various species.

So what can we conclude.

Some wild and African Pond Raised Cyphos have some sort of black marks.
Some tank raised cichlids have some sort of bacterial caused black marks.

Not having black marks, is not an indication that a fish is not wild.


----------



## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Fogelhund said:


> I've seen fish with similar black marks in tank raised. Various species.


Sorry to beat this one to death guys. I gotta ask for clarification: have you seen any of those black marks on F1+ cyphos?

Thanks,
Russ


----------



## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

I have seen Lake spots on Cyphos raised with snails in the tank. They were tank raised fish and your standard pond snails. I was surprised that the parasite somehow managed to use a host they were not likely evolved to use... I guess I should admit to assuming that since I didn't really look that hard into the situation.

As for Razzo's question... Somehow, I doubt that anyone shelling out the big bucks on wild caught frontosa would house them in a tank with snails and if those wild caughts threw fry, I seriously doubt that they would leave the fry in the tank. No intermediate host for the parasite, no "lake" spots. Doesn't mean F1 fry can't get worms, just that they "don't".


----------



## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Razzo said:


> Fogelhund said:
> 
> 
> > I've seen fish with similar black marks in tank raised. Various species.
> ...


Yes.


----------

