# Pundamilia nyererei and inbreeding



## mbargas (Apr 19, 2009)

There are many varieties of Pundamilia nyererei with their own distinct color pattern. It appears that the wild caught specimens have the best coloration. Old strains appear to lose some of their charactristic color patterns through inbreeding.

Obtaining the same strain from different sources may be a way to derease inbreeding, but how do you know if you're getting the right strain. Some dealers don't even know which strain they have. For example the Makobe Island and the Anchor Island are similar and could be mislabeled. Do you end up accidentally crossing two different varieties in an attempt to avoid inbreeding?


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## samaki (Oct 25, 2002)

mbargas said:


> There are many varieties of Pundamilia nyererei with their own distinct color pattern. It appears that the wild caught specimens have the best coloration. Old strains appear to lose some of their charactristic color patterns through inbreeding.
> 
> Obtaining the same strain from different sources may be a way to derease inbreeding, but how do you know if you're getting the right strain. Some dealers don't even know which strain they have. For example the Makobe Island and the Anchor Island are similar and could be mislabeled. Do you end up accidentally crossing two different varieties in an attempt to avoid inbreeding?


Hi to the first sentence, I would say no, if the breeders are sure from what they have. The fishes in Europe came directly from scientists so the strains are of a good qualtity with no loss or inbreeding. secondly wild caught specimens don't diifer from the long term captivity fishes, have yu any scientific proof of this loss of colour or phenotype??? I don't know from where yu had yur infos???
If yu're working with people who knows the exact origins of their strains, then there're no such problems at all.
xris


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## mbargas (Apr 19, 2009)

> ... have yu any scientific proof of this loss of colour or phenotype??? I don't know from where yu had yur infos???
> If yu're working with people who knows the exact origins of their strains, then there're no such problems at all.
> xris


No I have no proof at all, just word of mouth from some breeders. I pointed out to one of the breeders that the picture of his Anchor Island Strain didn't seem to display all of the red coloration in the dorsal fin that one would expect. He said that it was because it was an old strain that wasn't as colorfull as the wild-caught.

Can you recommend anyone who has top quality Pundamilia nyerereis?


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## dogofwar (Apr 5, 2004)

"There are many varieties of Pundamilia nyererei with their own distinct color pattern."
True - each color varient is different.

"It appears that the wild caught specimens have the best coloration."
Not necessarily true. Wild fish are the most "authentic" (obviously) to what they're supposed to look like. Selective breeding (line breeding for the best color/more red/more blue, etc.), which often is "inbreeding" has resulted in some of the most spectacular fish out there (although "different" than what is found in nature).

"Old strains appear to lose some of their charactristic color patterns through inbreeding."
Indiscriminate breeding within or outside of a color varient can result in loss of "good" color....while inbreeding for "good" color (either within or among color varients) can result in the loss of colors characteristic of "wild" examples of one varient or another...but also result in very attractive fish. Just look at all of the gorgeous line-bred peacock (Aulonocara) varieties...different from nature but great colors.

"Obtaining the same strain from different sources may be a way to derease inbreeding but how do you know if you're getting the right strain. Some dealers don't even know which strain they have. For example the Makobe Island and the Anchor Island are similar and could be mislabeled. Do you end up accidentally crossing two different varieties in an attempt to avoid inbreeding?"

Proper labeling is the key. Most of the fish on the commercial market (farms, wholesalers, LFS, chains, etc.) in the US have lost provenance to wild fish/collection locales and would thus be less than reliable sources for "authentic", verifiable fish. Hobbyists who can trace their stocks and reliable, specialty sources of fish are best.

Inbreeding isn't the problem so much as improper labeling and indiscriminate breeding.


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## mbargas (Apr 19, 2009)

dogofwar said:


> Most of the fish on the commercial market (farms, wholesalers, LFS, chains, etc.) in the US have lost provenance to wild fish/collection locales and would thus be less than reliable sources for "authentic", verifiable fish. Hobbyists who can trace their stocks and reliable, specialty sources of fish are best.


Do you have any suggestions on how I can find authentic nyerereis?


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## dogofwar (Apr 5, 2004)

Look to the review section...under retailer reviews.

Also, join a local fish club...or better the ACA...


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## dreday (Oct 12, 2007)

there are lots of "authentic" nyerereis. you just have to find someone who has been breeding the particular strain or location you are looking for. they usually have the best knowledge and an eye for the species.

the ACA is great for finding other breeders but not really sure how they verify the fish they are breeding is what the breeder is calling them. i guess there is no guarantee unless you do a lot of research and look at a lot of fish. then you have trained your eye and are looking for the characteristics you want.

i have some python island myself and they look pretty close to the pics i have seen. although in person they have a dark red color but in my pics it looks light to almost pink. this also changes with mood. so you have to look for more markings than just colors.

spacing between bars, # of bars, pattern of colors, and female coloration and marking as well.

just like peacocks the pundamilla are probably being crossbred a lot in tanks. all you can do is use your best judgment when purchasing the fish.

as far as the fish loosing the color from inbreeding i have to disagree. i have seen lots and lots of yellow labs which have been breed like crazy and they still retain there brilliant colors. 
now what is true is that lots of inbreeding creates undesirable traits. like crooked mouth, faded black lines, "bearding" and so on. but these are traits always present in the fishes genes. just in a tank setting most survive unlike the wild.

but when you have so many color variants it is harder to keep them separate. inbreeding and line breeding has been done with good success. there are quite a few species coming from germany that are line breed. find some good breeder in you area and talk to them. they should be able to help you out.


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## mbargas (Apr 19, 2009)

Has anyone ordered the Pundamilia Nyererei Red Mwanza from California Cichlids also available on aquabid. It is not identified with a specific locale, but it looks very colorful in the picture with a lot of intense red.


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## StructureGuy (Jul 27, 2002)

mbargas said:


> Has anyone ordered the Pundamilia Nyererei Red *Mwanza* from ....It is not identified with a specific locale,...


The locale is the Mwanza Gulf.

Kevin


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## alanastar (Mar 6, 2006)

Hi,
Kevin , aren't the Islands of Makobe, Ruti and Python all located within the Mwanza Gulf ?
So should be dealt with the same as if the local were not known. This labelling has only come about since the shipment of wild fish a year or so ago.
Sure you will correct me if im wrong.
:thumb:


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## samaki (Oct 25, 2002)

Hi paul makobe and Ruti are in the Speke gulf borderline with the Mwanza gulf, yu're right is the fish from Mwanza town or Mwanza gulf(it is not the same thing)
xris


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## nick a (Apr 9, 2004)

http://cichlidnews.com/indexwin.html



> Reportedly caught on the western side of Mwanza Gulf, this Pundamilia nyererei variety displays even brighter red hues when interacting with other males.


Unfortunately, that was about as much detail as was given............


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## mbargas (Apr 19, 2009)

Regardless of the origin, I'm looking to get some with good intense red coloration. Some of the ones that I've ordered before didn't have as much red as I expected.

Any other good sources?


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## dogofwar (Apr 5, 2004)

It's going to depend on the individual fish that you get...and their mood at the moment.

Sometimes my male Vics are really bright colored...other times not so much.

Having wild fish is no guarantee either. Fish that have been (inbred) line bred for bright coloration could have brighter coloration than wild ones.

My advice: Go to the review section and find a highly rated vendor that sells Vics. Buy a group of them. Give them good food and lots of water changes. And you'll end up with a really brightly colored male, a couple of sub-dom males without much color, and a bunch of females without any color.


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## dreday (Oct 12, 2007)

thats what i did.

i bought a group of 12 pundamillia nyererei python. i ended up with 4 males(1 dom with great color and more black on the belly, 3 sub dom males with good color) and 8 females. i just lost one female yesterday who i thought was holding since she was not eating but i guess she had something else going on.

a good group will help bring out the best colors. having sub dom males keeps the dom male in his best display to keep his status. my males do not fight that much. the females fight a lot though. i guess they are fighting over territory.


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