# Progressive or Full Load of Mbuna



## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

I am new to cichlids and installing a 6' long 100 gallon tank. I have seen some articles in this forum outlining how to set a cycle up front that, once completed, would allow one to fully stock the aquarium. It was suggested that this would create less stress for the cichlids by allowing an initial free for all for territory as opposed to a more staged approach. I would have thought taking the most docile mbuna first, letting them settle, and working up to the most aggressive mbuna I would have would make the ramp up less stressful for the fish (me too for that matter).

Proc/cons of each approach?


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## dalto (Aug 20, 2006)

In part, it depends which mbuna we are talking about but my personal experience is it won't matter that much if they are juveniles but if they are full size adults it is better to start with a fairly large group to keep any individual from being picked on. Otherwise, they tend to dissapear one at a time.. There is no single path to success with cichlids though so it depends on the fish in question.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Thanks - I hadn't picked up the juvenile vs adult factor. Probably a naive question, but I assume it's a bit of a **** shoot for sexing the juveniles whereas the adults you pay a premium but know what you are getting up front?


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

Easiest to add juveniles and let them grow up. Adding adults with adults end up in instant mortal kombat battles to decide dominance, sometimes fish are killed. Adult mbuna are not really considered "premium" at most places, just kinda unwanted fish.

As far as aggressive levels, aggression doesn't really work like that. Aggression is about pecking order and territory, not about being a bully just to be a bully. Of course with cichlids, every fish can be of a different personality and some fish are just a big pain.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

But if ratios of female to males are critical for managing aggression, how do you do this if you can't sex the cichlids as juveniles?


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## RayMontana (Oct 5, 2016)

From what I have learned on here from the experts...you pretty much have to buy more than you think you are going to want , and hope you get a decent ratio, and remove unwanted males as they make themselves known. I realize that can be an expensive proposition..the site I have purchased from has Demasoni for 24 bucks each for a juvie. there's no way. For me at least.
perhaps a local enthusiast or breeder has a better eye and can give you a better selection.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

I found another interesting post on this site (http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/b ... groups.php), that provided statistical advice on how one could improve the odds of getting the desired m:f ratio by stocking more than you need and sell/trade/cull the excess males.

If one can sex an adult with near certainty, would it make sense to buy a mix of unknown juveniles and a few adult females to improve the odds of getting to the desired m:f ratio by species?


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## Drake1588 (Jul 19, 2017)

I would avoid mixing adults and juveniles. My two inches demasoni are roughly 10% of their adult mass. Aesthetically, it's going to look really imbalanced, and even females are capable of harming/killing any of your juveniles. If going with juveniles, I would stock them all at once so they establish territories amongst themselves as they mature together. Less disruption to routine the better unless you're having to break up aggressiveness issues, at which point it's usually better to move the rocks around and create more territory space - basically making more, but smaller fish apartments so that everyone has a place to get away from the murder mayhem that Mbunas go on. It's pretty much the plot of The Purge, but it usually comes more than once a year with Mbuna!


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Ok. Thanks again for teaching the newbie. It sounds as if an established tank had a "Purge", the only way to add back fish to the tank is put in large enough adults that they can hold their own.

I think I will go the juvenile route. Would the following mix be viable?

Pseudotropheus Socolfi (Albino) or Pindani
Pseudotropheus "Acei" Yellow Tail Acei
Metriaclima Glaucos / Aurora Blue / Flameback
Metriaclima Red / Red Zebra
Labidochromis Perlmutt / Yellow Bar
Labidochromis Caeruls (Lion's Cove I)
Cynotilapia "Hara" White Top Hara
Cynotilapia Aurifrons (Lion's Cove) Sand Sanwa

As I am debating between a 125g and 180g tank, what would be an appropriate amount of juveniles to load, and if there are serious problems amongst these selections, other options which warrant consideration?

Finally, are there algae eaters that work well with cichlids?


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## Beaverspartyof3 (Aug 1, 2017)

dcheney888 said:


> Thanks - I hadn't picked up the juvenile vs adult factor. Probably a naive question, but I assume it's a bit of a #%$& shoot for sexing the juveniles whereas the adults you pay a premium but know what you are getting up front?


Correct, although Pseudotropheus Johannii's are much easier. As juveniles they are all bright yellowish orange, however within a few weeks males start to turn blue. The distinction is vivid.


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## Drake1588 (Jul 19, 2017)

In that large of a tank, those species should do fine. Something you may want to look at are White Tail Acei, rather than the yellows. Really interesting color setup that is unique among Mbuna http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... php?id=835


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Will check the White Tail Acei.

Any suggestions for algae eaters?

If I decide to have a hit squad to wipe out the fry (to prevent x-breeding and emergence of a super-aggressive fish) would synodontis lucipinnis be a good option?

For specific numbers - does this make sense for a 180 gallon tank (overall numbers, as well as whether I have too many species)

8 Pseudotropheus Socolfi (Albino) or Pindani
8 Pseudotropheus "Acei" Yellow Tail Acei or White Tail Acei
8 Metriaclima Glaucos / Aurora Blue / Flameback
8 Metriaclima Red / Red Zebra
8 Labidochromis Perlmutt / Yellow Bar
8 Labidochromis Caeruls (Lion's Cove I)
8 Cynotilapia "Hara" White Top Hara
12 Cynotilapia Aurifrons (Lion's Cove) Sand Sanwa

6 synodontis lucipinnis
x TBD Algae Eaters


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## Drake1588 (Jul 19, 2017)

I tried a bristlenose cat with my juvenile Mbuna. It lived for approximately 11 hours, tops. I got him in the tank around 7pm, lights off, he was a picked clean skeleton stuck to the filter intake at 7am when I got up. The syndontis seem to work really well for the people who run them. Assuming about a 33% attrition rate, that looks to be about right as far as stocking goes. If more than that make it to full sized adults, I'm sure an LFS would happily buy some.

I would stay away from algae eaters. Mbuna are pretty good about keeping it clean since most are herbivores, and just invest in a good algae scraper or large mag float to keep the glass clear for the first six months to a year. Once the algae establishes on the rocks, it'll be pretty easy to keep it clean. If it isn't, you can install a small LED grow light over the sump and put something for the algae to grow on in the refugium and the vast majority will grow there instead of on the tank glass. You just clean it periodically by swishing it around in a bucket of tank water to loosen any weakly attached or overgrown algae and you're good to go.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I like 5 species with 1m:4f of each in a 72" tank. Depending on the species chosen, of course. I would not mix Metriaclima or Labidochromis and I would choose one blue barred species.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Thanks to all for the advice.

If I were to start with three species, observe and then add another 1 to 3, where would you start and how much time should I give between stage 1 (intro of three species) and stage 2 (into of target balance)?

I really appreciate all the advice. I know I will make mistakes, but repeating exactly the same mistake that experienced aquarists already understand isn't learning. Your help is much appreciated.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

From your list I'd do-

Hara
Caereleus
Socolofi
Glaucos
Acei

Maybe an OB Labeotropheus or P. Cyaneorhabdos(Maingano). Some Lucipinnis. Try a BN pleco around 3" and introduce at the same time you add your mbuna. Add everything at once if doing a proper fishless cycle.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Thanks folks.

I will circle back again once I have confirmed the core setup of the tank.

My current plan - 180 gallon tank 72x24x24.

6 Cichild Species - Initially stocking 8 of each hoping at least 5 survive.

Labidochromis Caerulus
Cyanotilapia Hara
Pseudotropheus Acei Ngara Whitetail
Pseudotropheus Socolfi
Metriaclima Estherae Red
Iodotropheus Sprengerae Rusty

6 Synodontis Lucipinnis

Take care and thanks again for the counsel


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Why wouldn't they all survive? I would not save fry, and I would get multipunctatus instead with that goal in mind.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Drake1588 suggested a 33% attrition rate. I didn't follow up with him to see if he meant the need to take more juveniles than desired to strike the appropriate m:f ratios (removing excess males), casualties or some combo thereof.

I should clearly know that answer, will follow-up before I get to stocking (still 5-6 months away). The multipunctatus grow much larger than lucipinnis. With either choice I am looking for them to mop up the fry. Why do you prefer multipunctatus?


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I'm also curious as to what he meant about the 33% attrition rate since I've never heard of it before. I've never had a problem with synos surviving the other fish, plecos somewhat, synos no.


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## tanker3 (May 18, 2015)

I agree with DJR. The 1m:4f maybe OK with most of those fishes, but the Zebras I would go with a 1M:5-6F.

You plan on stock 8 of a species? That is a strange number. I would never stock 2 males of any species together(the stronger will kill the weaker), so if you want 8, are you planning on 1M:7F or 3M:5F of each?


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

I am trying to get to 1:4 for most species. If I stock juveniles, I had thought I would need to stock 8 to get this ratio based on the monte carlo analysis illustrated elsewhere on this site. Frankly there is a very clear consensus on the desired ratios, but no consensus on how best to achieve it.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

It's a krap shoot. I like starting with 10-12 of something so I end up with plenty of females. Certainly never a guarantee. I bought 12 Metriaclima once and only 2 ended up being female. The best I ever made out on a ratio was 3:9, but tend to remember the male heavy groups. Half glass empty, i guess :-?


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

So if you placed 12 juveniles of which 3 were male and 9 female, does the resulting 1:3 ratio work out, or does the most dominant male still knock about his juniors?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

That's difficult to say, and several factors come into play. Species, tank footprint, decor/line of sight breaks, individual fish disposition/aggressive tendency. Once again, a krap shoot.

Some members will tell you that several males works for them. Some say only 1. For me it's varied. Some members will say 3 males works better than 2. You just need to keep an eye on what's happening in the tank.

Bullied fish to the point of them hiding up in the corners of the tank need to be removed, or the aggressor removed. These fish are stressed, and can fall victim to Bloat. Losing a sub dom male is a far better case than one getting sick and infecting your tank. And it goes for females as well.

Bottom line, more females per male the better. Monitor closely. Address over the top aggression issues. If multiple males are working for you, don't change anything up. It can be difficult sometimes, but their behavior is what makes these fish interesting.

Hope that helped...


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## PDX Fishhead (Jan 30, 2017)

I fishless cycled my 6' 125 gallon then added a full load of juvy mbuna about 6 months ago. No problems yet, and breeding like rabbitfish. I haven't had to re-purpose any of the males yet. I have a lot of rock work. I read somewhere that I should provide one hiding place per fish. When something spooks the tank, they all disappear, so I guess it works. I have six species plus three bristle nose plecos.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Thanks all. Pdx - we may be within short distance of each other as I am just down the road in West Linn.

Part of my interest in aquariums and cichlids in particular is the need to observe and adjust. It would seem that there is no magic formula but some setups to avoid. If I can place the tank I want, it will have a lot of rock and hiding places, limited sightlines etc to create lots of safe zones. I would prefer to slightly understock and allow more natural movement, rather than overshoot the stocking as a means of mitigating aggression. I guess the proof will be in the pudding. Again, thanks for all the input. This is a great site for somebody venturing into cichlids for the first time.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Many Malawi will not tolerate more than one male/species/tank. They might not kill each other (or they might) but none of the males may color up with the competition. Some of the more timid mbuna are more likely to tolerate multiple males...labs...acei...saulosi.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> Many Malawi will not tolerate more than one male/species/tank. They might not kill each other (or they might) but none of the males may color up with the competition. Some of the more timid mbuna are more likely to tolerate multiple males...labs...acei...saulosi.


Thanks. Clear.


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## PDX Fishhead (Jan 30, 2017)

dcheney888 said:


> Thanks all. Pdx - we may be within short distance of each other as I am just down the road in West Linn.
> 
> Part of my interest in aquariums and cichlids in particular is the need to observe and adjust. It would seem that there is no magic formula but some setups to avoid. If I can place the tank I want, it will have a lot of rock and hiding places, limited sightlines etc to create lots of safe zones. I would prefer to slightly understock and allow more natural movement, rather than overshoot the stocking as a means of mitigating aggression. I guess the proof will be in the pudding. Again, thanks for all the input. This is a great site for somebody venturing into cichlids for the first time.


Closer than you think. I live in Lake Grove. I'd be happy to show you m setup sometime.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Neat PDX.

Once I confirm if I can proceed with my cichlid tank, I'd love to see your setup. Should know within a few weeks if I stick to the Cichlid concept or not (badly want to, but the 6' run is creating some challenges).


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## PDX Fishhead (Jan 30, 2017)

dcheney888 said:


> Neat PDX.
> 
> Once I confirm if I can proceed with my cichlid tank, I'd love to see your setup. Should know within a few weeks if I stick to the Cichlid concept or not (badly want to, but the 6' run is creating some challenges).


Send me a personal message here and we can make arrangements if you go with the mbunas.


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## Drake1588 (Jul 19, 2017)

dcheney888 said:


> Drake1588 suggested a 33% attrition rate. I didn't follow up with him to see if he meant the need to take more juveniles than desired to strike the appropriate m:f ratios (removing excess males), casualties or some combo thereof.
> 
> I should clearly know that answer, will follow-up before I get to stocking (still 5-6 months away). The multipunctatus grow much larger than lucipinnis. With either choice I am looking for them to mop up the fry. Why do you prefer multipunctatus?


Ah, that was my mistake, I should have clarified!

I always assume at least 1/3 of the fish will need to be removed in order to maintain an aggression balance. Some might die, but optimally it's an "I bought 10 of this fish and wound up with 6 males and 4 females, so 4-5 of the males need to be removed.In this other fish, I bought 10 and got 6 females and 4 males, so 2-3 males need to get removed at some point."

Numbers wise, at a large level with species that trend towards a male/female harem, it works out to average about 1 in 3 fish needing to find a different home to live in, whether it is a different tank in my own house, a sell back to an LFS, or donation to someone else. I always attempt to stock assuming every fish I have will be comfortable as an adult, but I also live in reality and know that I likely will have to go back and add more stock later once extra fish have been removed. I NEVER assume I will lose the 1/3 in order to assess filtration and space needs - purely to inform how big of a group I need to start with.


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## thornsja19 (Feb 4, 2017)

Just a quick chime in on your idea of algae eater. BN plecos usually have the highest success rate, but it's still a 50/50 shot on whether or not they survive. And when they do survive, once they reach a certain size they tend to munch on driftwood/forage along the bottom instead of actually cleaning the glass, so a lot of people tend to think they aren't worth the bio load. Just throwing out an alternative that I find useful but there'll definitely be mixed opinions on... I keep a separate 10g tank with nothing but gravel, sponge filters, and a chunk of cuttle bone. I then use this tank to breed pest snails (pond/bladder, MTS, and trumpet) along with red cherry shrimp. When that tank starts getting full, I simply scoop a bunch out and throw them into my main tanks. They serve as a great cleaning crew and have minimal bio load. The shrimp will definitely be eaten. The snails may or may not survive, but if your main tank gets a little too snail heavy for your liking, just toss in a group of assassin snails. The assassin snails are great to look at, survive cichlids more often than not, use the pest snails as their primary food source, and a breeding colony can usually be purchased for around $20. Again, I know this idea will get mixed reviews because there's a lot of fish keepers who don't want pest snails in their tanks under any circumstances, but it works for me and I find that they serve as a nice live food source for a more varied diet. Plus if your cichlids are spending more time amusing themselves by hunting snails/shrimp, they tend to be more distracted and spend less time beating on each other :thumb:


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> I like 5 species with 1m:4f of each in a 72" tank. Depending on the species chosen, of course. I would not mix Metriaclima or Labidochromis and I would choose one blue barred species.


Realized I may be confused with your comment of not mixing. Just to confirm, you would not have more than one metriaclima species in the same tank (or Labidochromis), or are Metriclima and Labidochromis together a problem?


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I think he is saying this because some metriaclima females are yellow and will crossbreed with labs


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

After checking my LFS and online stores, I realize it may not be as simple as adding all the fish at the same time as most sites do not carry either all my target species, or sufficient numbers of the target species to load up the tank in a single go.

Assuming I add only juveniles and can't get the entire slate of mbuna in a single pass, would you put priority on having a full "set" of mbuna (i.e. 8-10 of one species) before introducing it to the tank, or would it be more important to focus on getting the least aggressive of my anticipated mbuna species into the tank first so that they can claim some territories before the more (relatively) aggressive mbuna are added?

I am pretty confident I will be running a 180 gallon 72x24x24 tank. Looking at 4-6 mbuna species (amongst Cyanotilapia Hara or Afra Jalo, Labidochromis Caereleus, Iodotropheus Sprengerae, Pseudotropheus Socolofi or Johanni, Pseudotropheus Acei Ngara Whitetail or Msuli) Metriaclimai Esterae Red) and 6 or so Lucipinnis as the hit squad.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Full set of least aggressive species first. Stock as many as possible, as quickly as possible or you will lose your "full bioload" cycle.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Let's assume I target your suggested 1m:4f ratios and 5 species (is the 5 exclusively cichlids or does it count the lucipinnis?).

If I initially stock all juveniles with 10 rusties, 10 yellow labs, 10 Acei (either Ngara or Msuli), and 12-16 Demasoni (not worrying about the ratio for Demasoni if the school is large enough) and then 3-6 Synodontis Lucipinnis, is this a viable and sustainable combo? I assume I would remove excess males from the rusties, labs and acei which would pull out 8-12 fish as they mature.

If I have room for one more species of Cichlids, would the Afro Jalo skirmish too much with the Demasoni? Would having Ngara and Msuli Acei in the same tank cause x-breeding issues?

Thanks again for the help. I am hoping to get a decent bead on what species I will be having to work out the best choices for aquascaping. I am pretty much sold on the 3d background and just trying to work out how many rock piles and line of sight breaks I will need to keep peace.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

In a 72" tank with Demasoni, I would do 20 Demasoni after removing extra males. You would worry about ratios...but the fish will just reject whomever they don't like...it will be up to you to tear down the tank and catch that individual fast enough before problems multiply.

I would not do less than 5 Synodontis.

Jalo is likely to color down or languish in health with demasoni...I like strictly one blue barred species per tank. I have tried even hara...blue barred but VERY different and I was disappointed. Yes having two species of acei would create cross breeding.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

K. Thanks again. Will shoot for 10 Rusties, 10 Yellow labs, 10 Acei, 20 Demasoni and 6 Synodontis.

You note 20 Demasoni after removing extra males - does that mean I should stock 24-30 and expect to get to 20 after taking out surplus males / ostracized fish, or start at 20 to get down to 12-16? Surprised to see that Hara wouldn't work out with the Demasoni, would the Acei Ngara have the same challenges with the Demasoni? If so, the Acei would need to be Msuli.

Finally, just to clarify, would you include the Synodontis as one of your 5 species?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Synodontis is not one of the 5. I would want at least 15 females after removing extra males, so I would buy 30 to start. 3-5 males should work.

Ngara should not be a blue barred fish when colored up but I have never tried them.

End up with 20 demasoni and 5 each of the others...especially if you want to add a 5th species.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Perhaps this was mentioned earlier, but Metriaclima sp. Dolphin could be an alternative to Demasoni. Relatively the same patterns and colors for males and females as Dems.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Thanks for all the input.

Iggy - any reason you would go Dolphin over Demasoni? I was thinking that the Demasoni would provide some schooling action and create some size distribution diversity with the established tank.

Was looking at Pseudotropheus Williamsi as the 5th species to give some color variation and to be the largest of this set-up (at 7" vs Rusties, Yellow Labs, Acei, and the Demasoni).

I don't know enough about each of these species behavior to know if they will work all layers of the tank, but this group of 5 would pretty much cover the color and size ranges, with only the Demasoni being quite aggressive in a tank which should have lots of rock and hidey holes.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Initial cost and the extra work associated with the species. If you're up for it, then definitely go for it. Demasoni are a great species to keep, but don't expect any actual schooling behavior with them. Do expect a high level of activity.

I think Williamsi is a nice choice, but with Demasoni taking up essentially 2 species slots I'd skip them.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

This is all helpful - I can see several arrangements that can work. Based on your feedback I could go with 4 species with the Demasoni counting as two, or I could add Hara and Williamsi and drop the Demasoni.

I probably need to spend some time watching Youtube videos to see more of species behavior as opposed to making decisions on pictures and descriptions of behavior.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Be careful with the YT videos, as there's quite a bit of misinformation out there.

I believe Marc Boulton did a quality vid on Demasoni several years ago. Just search African Cichlid Hub Demasoni.

This is from a group I had when they were young and had been spawning for months. Pretty typical behavior.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Williamsi are awesome looking fish but really aggressive from my experience.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

If the Williamsi are really aggressive, somebody needs to update the species comments. There, they are listed as mildly aggressive.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Evidently, because the one male my go to LFS has in their display tank is a jerk, a couple of my friends who are full fledged breeders, williamsi's are jerks,


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Too bad. Love the coloration of the Williamsi's.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I know, I've kept a breeding group before with labs and acei and they did okay.


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## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

We've had our male williamsi for over 3 years, at 7 3/8", he is one of my wife's favorite mbuna. If you like the color and want a large mbuna for your tank, I say the willaimsi would be well worth a serious look.


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## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

This is a pic of him from about 6 months ago.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Beautiful fish BlueSunshine. What else is in your tank with the Williamsi and what size of tank are you working with?

As I am new to cichlids, assuming I put a lot of hiding places in my tank, is it easier to develop a community tank with a large number of Demasoni or to have a potential large "jerk" like a Williamsi? With Demasoni, I had thought large groups 
of Demasoni with a reasonable m:f balance wouldn't harass the other fish that much as they would be occupied with each other. If I went with the Williamsi and Hara, the tank then shifts to some big bad boys that would control the tank, but given their size if I have enough hiding places for their tank mates that could be manageable as well. Would a Williamsi and Hara in the same tank work out? I plan to break the tank into at least two and probably three zones with separate sight lines to create mini territories of this 180 gallon tank.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Personally, I think it would be wise to keep similarly sized Mbuna with williamsi.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

So if I were to stock 10 Williamsi with 10 Rusties, 10 Yellow labs, 10 Acei, 30 Demasoni and 6 Synodontis - to get to 1m:4-6f for Williamsi, Rusties, and Acei and about 20 Demasoni with 3-5 males that would be a viable mix? Only the Demasoni would be significantly undersized, but as they are aggressive, nimble and numerous they should be able to hold their own?


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

The other option would be to drop the Demasoni and add Hara or Socolofi to the Williamsi, Rustie, Yellow Lab, Acei, Synodontis mix


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I think you would be better suited to do williamsi, rusties, labs, acei and synodontis. Demasoni are smaller and more timid than most Mbuna. The group of four I listed are more similar in size and temperament.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Thanks Daniel. I assume you feel 4 species are sufficient, or if you could add a 5th, would you go with Hara or Socolofi? I think it was you or TJ that had suggested sometimes less is more natural. I would prefer to have a tank where the fish aren't constantly bumping into each other just to mitigate aggression. Ideally, I would achieve that with good aquascaping and the right mix of species. Appreciate all the help.

While this may be way too much planning in advance, I would like to know my likely species mix so I can think about what type of rock (river or holey), substrate color, background (3D or simple paint), and whether the intro of a branch or two would seem natural and create enough safe havens and breaks in sight lines to keep every fish happy.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Yeah 4 species with Mbuna is usually best, otherwise it just starts looking cluttered plus you want different looking species to avoid hybrids and there's only so many colors... Just personal preference but I like the natural look and the Malawi background from universal rocks is pretty awesome


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

I think I like the 4 species approach and this mix will be attractive. Was looking at buying the Malawi background from Universal Rocks as well. I have a good selection of river stone from 1" up to 6" of varying colors - would they work well with the background or would Holey Rock create more safe havens and better aesthetics. At present I was thinking of using the Malawi background, some river stone with a large pile on one end of the tank, a medium pile on the other end, and a ridge line in the center maybe complemented by 1-2 pieces of driftwood.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I'd go to a rock yard and get some bigger rocks. You can use Holey rock but I think it might look strange with the Malawi background. It's basically what I have in my tank but it is a custom size. You would need more rocks than what I have for your stock but at least you have an idea of what to look for.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Thanks for the pic. Makes sense that the holey rock wouldn't work as well here. Looks like Malawi background, some larger rocks as per you pic, and some driftwood will make for a good aquascape.

Will start checking our rock yards that would have the 10-16" size I think you have in your tank. Do use styrofoam or egg crate under your rocks?


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

No but it's okay if you want to do that


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## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

dcheney888 said:


> Beautiful fish BlueSunshine. What else is in your tank with the Williamsi and what size of tank are you working with?
> 
> As I am new to cichlids, assuming I put a lot of hiding places in my tank, is it easier to develop a community tank with a large number of Demasoni or to have a potential large "jerk" like a Williamsi? With Demasoni, I had thought large groups
> of Demasoni with a reasonable m:f balance wouldn't harass the other fish that much as they would be occupied with each other. If I went with the Williamsi and Hara, the tank then shifts to some big bad boys that would control the tank, but given their size if I have enough hiding places for their tank mates that could be manageable as well. Would a Williamsi and Hara in the same tank work out? I plan to break the tank into at least two and probably three zones with separate sight lines to create mini territories of this 180 gallon tank.


We keep them in a 75 gal. tank. Tank mates consist of yellow lab, demasoni, polit, flavus, blue dolphin manda, blueberry, redhead mac tropheops, ob zebra, zebra chilumba luwino reef, cobalt zebra, bumblebee, fuelleborni (one blue male and one ob male), bristlenose pleco and syno. featherfin cat.
I do not think you will have problems in a 180 gal tank. Just my opinion.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Demasoni harass both themselves and others. The tricky part is that they are also easily stressed and susceptible to disease...so you have to worry about whether their tank mates are intimidating them as well.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Awesome Williamsi, BlueSunshine!

You need a blue barred/BB zebra type of some sort. You have a 6' tank, so pretty much anything can be stocked. There's also some Metriaclima species where the females are OB, and the males barred. A nice touch, which can also be found in Labeotropheus and Tropheops. Just my 2 cents...


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Wowza BlueSunshine. That's quite a mix for a 75 gallon tank.

Good counsel DJ on the Demasoni - I guess that's why they are listed at difficulty 3 for care.

Iggy - I am still waffling between 4 and 5 species, but if I were to add another to the mix of Williamsi, Rusty, Yellow Lab, and Acei Msuli, would the Hara or the Blue Red Zebra (Metraclima Estherae) work better in this tank? I like Labeotropheus trewavasae (Mpanga) but I don't see a lot of them available, so I am trying to focus on a group of species which I should be able to buy and load into the tank within a 1-7 day window. Most of the Tropheops species are listed as difficulty 3, so is this a stretch for a newbie cichid aquarist? I ran a 50 gallon freshwater for a year and then converted it to a marine tank for a few years - that's my total experience set.


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## thornsja19 (Feb 4, 2017)

It's not really a good idea to mix Red Zebra with Yellow Labs. One of the most common crossbreeds so the males wind up seeing each other as competition and fighting a lot. Better to have one or the other. Have you looked at Saulosi? They are a dimorphic species with the males looking a lot like Demasoni and the female looking a lot like yellow Labs. So you could do Williams, Rusties, Acei, and Red Zebras, with either 2m:8f Saulsoli or 1m:4f Saulsoli and 1m:4f of a 6th species


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Thanks Thorn. Had forgotten about the Zebra / Lab issue.

The Saulosi look sharp, but at least a quick check with the major online vendors didn't show any for sale. Not quite the same fish but close, is a pseudotropheus interruptus chizumulu - same barred makes and yellow females. If the Red Zebra jump on the Yellow Labs, would they have issues with the yellow females of saulosi or these chizumulu species?

Appreciate all these alternatives as I think its clear my core species will be the Williamsi, Rusties, and Acei, with a decision to make on the final 1-2 species. I don't want to push for a 6th species on my first go around.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I see them...did you know the name is now Chindongo saulosi?


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Yeah that's true they did change it to chindongo recently... Funny word though, albeit in a sophomoric kinda way lol.


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## thornsja19 (Feb 4, 2017)

Not sure on the other one but the Saulosi should be fine. I think the whole Red Zebra/Yellow Lab problem is due to a very similar body shape. Another option for you if those are your main 3... with the Williamsi being mainly yellow, orange from the Rusties, and a very dark blue/purple from the Aceis... I personally would wanna add a light, bright blue. If you still wanted the Red Zebras you could add standard Socolofi. Or if you wanted to add blue and white instead of blue and red, you could add either Socolofi and albino Red Top Zebras or Blue Cobalt Zebras and albino Socolofi. And all of those fish are relatively common so easy enough to find


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## BlueSunshine (Jul 13, 2014)

thornsja19 said:


> Not sure on the other one but the Saulosi should be fine. I think the whole Red Zebra/Yellow Lab problem is due to a very similar body shape. Another option for you if those are your main 3... *with the Williamsi being mainly yellow*, orange from the Rusties, and a very dark blue/purple from the Aceis... I personally would wanna add a light, bright blue. If you still wanted the Red Zebras you could add standard Socolofi. Or if you wanted to add blue and white instead of blue and red, you could add either Socolofi and albino Red Top Zebras or Blue Cobalt Zebras and albino Socolofi. And all of those fish are relatively common so easy enough to find


Just to clarify my opinion, the williamsi is not yellow and will contrast with yellow labs very well. Here is a pic of them together. I'll let everyone decide for them selves.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

The red zebra with yellow lab problem is that the color difference isn't enough that they won't crossbreed and will have aggression issues. Personally, I would go with the labs above red zebras simply because of how aggressive the reds are.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Well, I am a little challenged on colors (my wife would say a lot challenged), but here seems to be my current draft order:

*Core Trio*

Species 1 Williamsi - beautiful fish. Orange males, variable females with brown-yellow to grey. 
Species 2 Rusty - blue orange males, females rusty brown
Species 3 Acei Msuli (I didn't specify earlier, so some thought I was looking at Ngara) - softly barred blue male with yellow tail, and intense blue body with yellow tail for females

*Option A*

Species 4 would be Electric Labs with Yellow & Black tipped males with yellow females and Species 5 would be Cyanotilapia Hara (softly barred blue male with yellow female)

*Option B*

Species 4 would be Saulosi with brightly black n blue barred males and yellow females paired with Species 5, Socolofi (which is primarily blue with black n white dorsal fin) with females having more muted colors.

Any last concerns you would have with these mixes?

Aside from the Lucipinnis (6-8), I would plan to stock 12 juveniles of each of the 5 cichlid species. If my 180 gallon has a large amount of rock and cover, and by avoiding the most aggressive of the mbuna, I hope that if I happen to get a mix of 9 plus females out of the 12, that I could consider leaving the remaining males in the tank and watch and observe. At 8, maybe keep two males. If I get 7 or less females, I would remove all but the dominant male. This sound right-headed?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'd go with option B. All Labidochromis caeruleus have black fins...the fish you describe sounds like a hybrid. The acei and hara females don't proviUsue much contrast...both a mid blue. Socolofi is at least a lighter blue.

Usually 3 males is better than 2 to manage aggression, and with 3m:12 you occupy 3 species slots. Some species may not tolerate extra males in the tank no matter what. Acei, labs and saulosi are most likely to tolerate extra males and maybe even have them all color up.

Socolofi and williamsi are on the aggressive side.


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## james1983 (Dec 23, 2007)

Have you considered a tropheops or labeotropheus species? They are more aggressive but offer some different colors and shapes.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Interesting - I had thought the species slots was literally the introduction of a different species of cichlid in the tank, not each 1:4 ratio. If that is the case, wouldn't I be better off to drop back to 8-10 juveniles of each species and assume I am shooting for a single male with his harem?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Eight of each is a common number of juveniles to buy. Gives you about a 50% chance of getting 4 females.

No you can do different species or same species, but you are shooting for a max number of fish and 1m:4f ratios (depending on species). You could do 5m:20f in a 72" tank of just Chindongo saulosi if desired. I mention them since there is a good chance multiple males will be tolerated...not so for some species.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Thanks. I am seeking a maximum variety of species without overloading the tank. I understand some deliberately overstock the tank to mitigate aggression, but I would prefer a more natural balance where the aquascape has enough room to temper the excessive aggression.

Assuming I keep 5-6 of each group of 8 juveniles I would buy for 5 species, that is about 25-30 adults plus the Lucipinnis. Do you have any strong preference for Multipuntata over Lucipinnis?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

5 groups of 5 gives you 25 fish plus 5 synodontis. If you are going for fry control choose multipunctatus. Lucipinnis are cuter.

That is an ideal level of overstocking to manage aggression.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Thanks DJ.

Still have lots to do before I will be ready to stock my fish, but I now have a clear idea of what species and stocking levels I am targeting. I like the lucipinnis' looks more as well. But as this set of fish is primarily for fry control it sounds as if I opt for the lucipinnis I risk having more fry making it to adulthood and disturbing the balance of the tank. Hence multipunctatus it is.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Ad advantage of the multiunctatus would be the chance to observe them spawn. I've only seen it once, but it's very cool.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I prefer to buy more than 8 if you want 4 females. The math tells you that you have approx a 50% chance at 4 females when starting with 8 unsexed fish. 50% is not good enough for me. Any extra females above the 4 goal is a bonus. And the 180 gives you plenty of room for extra fish.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

Thanks Iggy.

Running a simulation suggests you need at least 12 fish to have an 80% chance of 4 or more females.

That would suggest I would likely get at least one species without enough females. Equally, at least one where I would have at least 8 females. I take it in the former case (still short of females), I would buy a sexed female to make up for the shortfall. In the latter case (lots of females) would I still remove all the males but one, or see if 2-3 males can cohabit if they have a large bevy of females to share?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You can always see, but expect the more aggressive species to do better with one male/tank. Even if they get along...multiple males...especially two...may not color up and none of them may color up to their best ability.

You can't always get sexed females from reliable vendors...but when you can it's a great idea!!


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

I think I would buy some sexed adult females to make up ratios for which I am on the short side (i.e. 1m:2f, 1m:3f).

For the males, if I have more than 1, I assume the dominant male colors up but the sub-dominant won't and, if they can, even try to blend in with the females?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Some times none of them will color up...sometimes only the dominant one.

I get what you are saying on the sexed females...I'm saying they are not always available.


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## dcheney888 (Jul 30, 2017)

If you can't buy sexed females, do you just keeping adding juveniles if you see your ratio is going to be just 1m:2-3f?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I do.


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