# Beat columnaris w/out meds?



## wicked1 (Jun 4, 2006)

I've had a horrible experience w/ columnaris. (i think.. no microscope to look for sure)
South American cichlids, 220gallon planted aquarium. Perfect water. Well established (20 years old aquarium). no diseases in years.

Got a new fish.. Had been watching it at the pet store for a couple of weeks, and he seemed healthy all that time, so I did not quarantine it.
Bad idea! A week after introducing it to my tank it was dead and a few of my fish had gray patches. On one it progressed to rotting fins, so I started trying to treat him.. Large severum, about 10 years old.. Beautiful 'pet' fish.. (He would let me pet his forhead, interacted w/ me, etc). He was going down hill fast so I ordered nitrofurazone and kanamycin. Put him in a hospital tank w/ the recommended doses of each. He died quickly. I'm 99% sure the kanamycin killed him. After 1/2 day in the tank he was not looking good.. more fuzz was appearing on his body. I researched it and saw I could use a double dose of kanamycin for "systemic infections" so put more in, and he immediately darkened and breathing slowed.. I watched him die.. Only took about 15 min after the 2nd dose of kanamycin. After I realized he was breathing his last breaths, I put him back in my main tank at a power head to get fresh water over his gills, but it was too late .

Back in the main tank at least 4 fish (eartheaters) have hazy skin and are flashing occasionally. One just sits at the bottom. But, it's not progressing so quickly on any of them. It's been a few days w/ little change. I am terrified of this kanamycin now!! Wondering if the place sent the wrong meds or something! (I got it from Angels Plus.. Only place I could find it in bulk.. It's obviously re-packaged by them so human error is a possibility). I've been doing every other day 50% water change w/ 1/2 RO, 1/2 tap. I had salt in there for 4 days, but I have a black ghost knife and some clown loaches, and they didn't appreciate the salt. SO, i've not been adding it when I do my water changes the past couple of times.

Is it possible for fish to beat this w/ their own immune systems? 
Has anyone else seen an immediate bad reaction to kanamycin? My sev was weak, but am sure he would have lasted at least a few more days if I would have left him in the main tank.

Thanks for any advice.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Really sorry for the loss of your severum. 
When fish are already weak from illness any medication can push them over the edge--just as you mentioned. He might have lasted a few more days in the main tank but really you did the right thing in removing him. As far as the kanamycin not being good--don't know. Unless you were treating large numbers of fish I wouldn't buy meds in bulk just because of the shelf life. I've used kanamycin many times with no issues.

So back to the main tank. The fish don't seem to be getting worse--that's good. It may be your extra water changes that's helping. It's impossible to know exactly what your fish are suffering from. Yes it could be Columnaris and yes they can, with the right conditions, get better on their own. If you want to go that route I would turn the heat down to 76', continue to do daily or every other day partial water changes and increase the water movement in the tank. 
Salt, sodium chloride, can help with some bacterial diseases. In smaller amounts it's supposedly prevents bacteria from adherring to the fish's skin. In large amounts, what is referred to a salt bath, it can actually cure a fish of Columnaris. In the library section of this site there is an article on the treatment of Columnaris and you will find that the author does not recommend meds for Columnaris but sodium chloride.(I don't know about the black ghost knife fish but I have successfully treated Clown Loaches for ich with a solution of 4tablespoons salt per five gallons and the clowns had no problem with the salt whatsoever--that was five years ago and the loaches are quite large and healthy today and digging up any plant I try to grow in the tank :? ).

And yes it's always good to quarantine but that's no guarantee. I recently bought a juvenile bristlenose pleco--qt-d him for 4 weeks, put him in one of my tanks and a couple weeks later the tank had ich. The ich just didn't show up on the bristlenose--who did a superb job cleaning both the quarantine tank AND the main tank despite the ich. (Ich is gone now after a ten day salt and heat treatment).

Again, sorry about your severum. He sounds like he was a great fish.

Robin


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## wicked1 (Jun 4, 2006)

Thanks for the reply. 
I did try a salt bath a couple of times (or dip.. basically a little under seawater level of salt) and he got worse afterwords. I don't think the dips were physically harmful to him.. Both were on the lowest end of what's recommended, and he never showed signs of distress in the treatment tank. But, (some people would think I'm crazy for this, but I think people here will understand) south american cichlids, and especially Severums, are some emotional fish! I think the act of singling him out and removing him from the tank stressed him out enough to weaken him more.. I've never in my 30+ years in the hobby successfully treated an alpha fish for similar reasons.. you single them out, take them out of their stable alpha environment, and it's a huge blow to their fishie ego's. Treating smaller dumber fish, though, is never an issue.. they don't seem to care if you net them and move them or whatever.

I was only up to 1tablespoon per 5 gallons of salt in the big aquarium, and the loaches and knife were always strangely active, which I took to be a sign of distress, but they were eating and nicely colored and all. It sounds like you've used higher concentrations of salt than that. I'm going to put salt in w/ todays water change and slowly get it back up to at least the same 1T/5G.

Since it's not progressing too quickly I think I'll keep taking it slow and do as little as possible.. Water changes and salt. I'll update the thread as things progress.


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## wicked1 (Jun 4, 2006)

Well, 
Now that the lights are on, I see some issues... The one eartheater who didn't show any signs of trouble now has a lesion on his side.. red raised scale w/ fuzz around it. 
I suppose Ill start w/ 1/2 doses of antibiotics in the big 220 gallon (that's why I got bulk antibiotics). 
Nitrofurazone is in there now. If they are still all OK in a few hours I may add a couple grams of kanamycin.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Potassium Permanganate or Methylene Blue are options as well, being useful as baths/dips. You can add nitrofurazone and or kanamycin to the bath with methylene blue, but not with potassium permanganate.
http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/20 ... baths.html


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## wicked1 (Jun 4, 2006)

What kind of doses of kanamycin are people using? I've seen instructions for 125mg/10gallons all the way to 4000mg/10gallons!
1gram(1000mg) per 10 gallons is what killed my sev. I have the low dose level in my display tank now, (125/10) and no signs of trouble, but not sure if it will help either.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Seachem (Kanaplex) recommends 360mg/10g, every 2 days. Max 3 doses. Another recommends 125-250 mg/10 gallons. Treat every 48 hours (24 hours for severe problems) with a 25% water change before each treatment. Treat for 10 days.


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## wicked1 (Jun 4, 2006)

Thanks! I don't understand why there's such a huge range of dosing for Kana.... The powder I have says 1tsp per 10g, and on my mg scale, 1tsp is about 1.5 grams! And this is pure powder! not like kanaplex which is cut w/ potassium salts (I think). 
I'm sticking w/ the lower doses for now. No improvement on the fish w/ the lesion on his side, but the others seem to be perking up a little.. I think they may have beat it mostly on their own.. Wonder if they are more resistant to it now.. (not sure if immune system gets programmed for bacteria the same way it does for viruses).


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## wicked1 (Jun 4, 2006)

Today's update.. The hole on the side of the male eartheater (tapajos red head) continues to get worse, but he must not feel bad.. They are breeding right now!


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## wicked1 (Jun 4, 2006)

So, it's been about 9 days of treatment.. Eartheater still has a spot on his side, but it's not fuzzy and appears to be getting smaller. All the other fish are OK. I think I'll stop dosing the meds.. Hopefully this is all over!


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