# Columnaris symptoms



## Guest (Sep 22, 2008)

Could stringy feces, mouthing food but still eating, be additional symptoms of Columnaris besides the common symptoms?

~Ed


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

When I had Columnaris in my tank, the fish wouldn't even attempt to eat.

Their feces can change due to several different factors...Change in food, medications, illness, etc...

What are the "common" symptoms you're seeing, Ed?


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2008)

Well as I've explained in my pms a week or so ago, some of my fish have become ill. Now two more are becoming ill and a few others are beginning to show some resembling symptoms.

The thing that caused this all is I believe too things. One, the Buccochromis rhoadesi I have that had blockage from krill/prawn and later developed into some sort of bacterial or parasite infection. Also, right around the time I was supposed to do my usual water changes I got very ill with a 104F at one point leaving the tank without a water change for something like 2-4 weeks... I don't remember the exact dates but in that general time frame. During this period I had the UV Sterilizer in the main tank shut off because prior to being ill I had Melafix in the water to treat a wound on one of the fish.

The good news though, a lot of the juvenile fish I have in there are still 100% healthy (probably thanks to the recent major water changes I have been doing and the large doses of Metronidasole and Salt I've been adding. I also added really small doses of tetracycline and Furan-2 but it didn't seem to do much) which is partially good news because they are ones that would be worth a lot of money as adults and as well be nice show fish....


The symptoms:
They seem to start out being a bit slow. They are slow to react and almost reluctant at first to come over to the usual crowd that hovers near the top of the tank begging for food. They do still eat flakes and pellets but are VERY reluctant to eating pellets (3mm size Dainichi brand, all my healthy fish find them irresistible to eat) and spit like half the pellets they take into their mouths but still eat.

They also didn't get skinny when I didn't feed for a day like the normal fish did. On the other hand, the ill ones haven't bloated up either...just stayed the same.

They have the stringy white feces. Sometimes it just happens over night. One day they are perfectly healthy and the next they are lethargic and have the white feces. Feces are necessarily white all the time, but stringy nonetheless.

They also just seem to hang out in one general area mostly (like by the rocks, or on the left side of the tank, or only swimming in the lower or upper water column, etc).

I'm not seeing any other symptoms, but in the ones I have been already treating for over a week now with little but some improvements with Clout I have seen torn fins not healing *(which is what made me suspect fin rot, which I understand can be associated with Columnaris. *I must note though that this fish has had all the other symptoms I mentioned but has not ever had stringy feces... and the entire time he wasn't eating (barely eating now) he never got skinny nor bloated)), and some damaged scales (the one fish kept trying to escape one time when I mixed a 1/4 dose of Furan-2 in the tank with the clout to possibly treat what I thought could be fin rot. Turns out it made the water extremely toxic and the guy kept thrashing and trying to get out banging himself against the hood. Immediately I did three 90% water changes and he was back to the way he was before). They will NOT eat anything but some flakes and brine shrimp/mysis shrimp but they mouth both of them but eat most of what they take in. Only one of them occassionally eats the pellets. One of them must be relatively healthy because I have been seeing normal colored and sized feces in there but I am not sure who they are from.

For now all I can say is I must be dealing with some sort of bacterial plague or parasite plague.

Any ideas for treatment? I will remove or risk killing the plants and biofilter in the main tank if I have to in order to prevent any losses and gain full recoveries of those already infected. The only thing though is I do NOT want to use anything that could stain the silicone (ie, no clout).

Immediate meds I have are Tetracycline (human grade and fish grade), Amphicillin (human grade), Clout, Metronidasole (must be pure, had to sign liability waiver), Furan-2, Triple Sulfa, Melafix, QuICK Cure, Salt, Epsom Salt.

Any other meds suggested I could get but would take a day or two.

Any idea what the **** is wrong? This has actually tempted me to see if I can make a DIY auto water changer siphon so relatives can do water changes when I am unable too... Kind of like the ones here: http://jehmco.com/html/safety_siphon_aq ... drain.html or maybe I'll just buy one...

Oh yeah, I'm having similar problems in my 29g except just stringy feces. I'm continuing the clout treatment and will see what happens. I have been lightly feeding flakes every day to see who eats and who does, and it appears that every day one more fish is eating or making an effort and I haven't lost one since last week now. So far so good I hope...

I plan on doing major water changes in all my tanks except for the 120g (wild fish tank) which will just get a normal one. In the 265g I am tempted to sometime this week or month maybe take all the fish and plants out and run bleach in the tank to sterilize the water of everything. Of course I will kill the biofilter but it should kill anything in there, except for the snails of course which seem to be immortals.

~Ed


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I know we've discussed this before, but I just went back through a few of your posts, and I am really concerned about the amount of medications that your fish have had over the past few months.

Other than the deterioration of the fins, I'm not seeing anything indicative of Columnaris. It _can_ be internal, but I truly believe it would eventually be external, as well.

I think I would lay off meds for awhile in an effort to get a clear picture as to what is going on. I would do daily water changes over a couple of weeks and see if their behaviour improves or changes in any way. For the fins, the water changes will do as much as most meds will.

The stringy and sometimes discoloured feces may be contributed to all the meds these fish have had over the past few months.

As far as the fins go, it might be a good idea to take a long look at the stocking and how it's working out as all the fish are maturing.

The problem with using so many medications is that your fish become immune to them, and when you really truly need them, they won't help.

What are the current water parameters on the tank?


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## becadavies (Apr 2, 2007)

I have to agree with Cichlidaholic......90% of ailments are water quality/stress related and most fishkeepers see a symptom and medicate unfortunately.

I personally have only ever treated my entire tank twice poss 3 times in my 9 years of african cichlid keeping. The most devastating was columnaris- By the time i realised what it was it was too late and no medication in the world could have saved my fish  Needless to say i lost them all in 3/4 days.... nearly put me off fishkeeping forever ( i said nearly :wink: )

If it is Columnaris then Higher water temperatures will elevate the diseases progress- its unnaturally contagious. I just hope it isnt for your and your cichlids sake.

I would do a large water change, keeping all the parameters as close to the norm for your tank as possible and like cichlidaholic said watch out for any bully fish.

Hope this helps

xxx


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2008)

Well the thing is after I did the two 95% water changes I didn't see any symptoms, other than those from the Buccochromis rhoadesi, until a week later when the tank already had clean water with carbon and purigen.

While I have no illusions that the bad water quality played a part in their current symptoms but I am not going to believe that since then (1-2 weeks ago) I've done at least 6 major water changes since I started the metronidasole treatment and am still seeing symptoms. There's no reason for a fish that was perfectly healthy when the tank had bad water quality to all of a sudden after a week of having clean water to start showing these symptoms and possibly refuse food all together.

About the multiple meds, I do agree 100% with the arguments that it could harm the fish long term, allow the fish to develop resistance to the medication, etc. Generally I only used the meds on two occasions at full doses when I treated fish. The first occasion was last year when my tank broke down with a parasite (for no reason, water quality was fine. All of a sudden fish started dying, no symptoms other than not eating) of some sort and the fish would not recover with the metronidasole that I was recommended by a few people to try. After losing a wild caught show fish, I put the fish in my 29g and tried Furan-2, Tetracycline, and Metronidasole and within 3 days they were cured as opposed to just a week on Metronidasole with no real results. The other occasion was with my catfish. With that one, I believe I only used Triple Sulfa and Metronidasole because I haven't seen it eat anything for nearly a month and was deeply worried. It took like 3-4 weeks to cure the guy but after all that time he finally started eating again and is now healthy in my main tank.

In the 120g, I added like 1/10th of a full dose of Furan-2 and Tetracycline in addition to the Metronidasole because some of the new wild fish were not eating and the one had a nasty wound of some sort by her genital pores that was bright red. It healed up 90% on her a few days later after starting that treatment, and the rest of the fish started eating but she didn't so I put her in my 20L with the other sick ones with Clout medicine since I also noticed stringy white feces. That tank I did not have any water quality problems. (Did do a water change in that tank when I was ill when I noticed fish courting).

With the torn fins, it's only on the Lethrinops and I suspect it is because they are all crowded in the 20L. I have absolutely no aggression problems in my main tank except for the stuartgranti peacocks but they only fight amongst themselves. When I put the lethrinops in the 20L his fins were fine. What freaked me out was how quickly they went bad and that they weren't healing.

Currently the 265g, I don't remember the exact number values for the pH, alkanity and hardness but it was all in the high range where it should be...the pH usually buffers around 8.2-8.4 (I have acid water at a pH of like 6, so I have to use buffers and I use buckets of Seachem malawi buffer). The nitrates are less than 20ppm. I had to toss my Nitrate liquid test kit recently and my test strip has the lowest reading at 20ppm and it's just barely any pink color. There are a VERY small number of nitrites though, probably because I had a small dose of furan-2 and tetracycline in the water for a day to see if the fish would respond (I believe I emptied one 10gallon-dose packet of furan-2 and 1-ten gallon capsule of tetracycline). Didn't do anything but turn the water yellow (the catfish did become more active though, they were previously hiding a lot) so I did a major water change and just stuck with Metro. There is no ammonia readings.

Currently I did a 50% water change today and vacuumed up all visible feces, including all visible stringy feces in the tank and in the sump and added a tablespoon of metronidasole and a handful of sea salt.

For now I am going to continue treatment with the metronidasole at a rate of 1-2 tablespoons a day. So far, no other fish other than two large ones have gotten sick and stayed sick. Two others that showed stringy feces today I noticed had normal feces.

Any suggestions as what to do next? Currently I am thinking on maybe fasting the tank while I treat, keep an eye out for symptoms and do a small water change every other day maybe, and in a few days try feeding and see how the two sick ones react. Currently the one is still barely eating and the other I didn't see eat at all, just spat all his food.

For now I am just going to stick with Metronidasole in that tank and if the fish don't improve soon I am considering treating them with clout. Their water is perfectly clean now and was before I started medication, so to me it seems like it must really be an illness. I can't see any other explanation. What is wrong, it was either passed on to them by the Bucco or induced by the water quality...

~Ed


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2008)

So does it sound like a good approach? To keep using metro and keep up the frequent water changes and fast them for a few days to see who eats who doesn't?

~Ed


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2008)

Now the two fish are NOT eating.

Any suggestions as what to do? I'm going to do another 50% water change more-or-less tomorrow.

For now I am still going to continue metro treatment and am going to fast the tank for a few days.

Also, if you guys STILL think (after the additional information I gave you above) a best approach at the moment would be to stop Metro treatment for a few days let me know asap. I am deeply worried about the fish as they are one of my favorites, and the one is particularly rare. Again I do agree with your arguments about over medicating, but I honestly don't believe that this is still just their reaction to bad water quality when the water was fine with no meds for a week then they showed symptoms, and now after nearly two weeks with treatment and clean water and a UV sterilizer they are still showing symptoms of something. I honestly believe that something is wrong with them. If you do still believe I should stop treatment, I'd want to your explanation for the events I described.

At the moment though, two fish that were showing symptoms in the main tank including not eating are now eating and have normal feces.

The one large one is being reclusive but does come over to examine food but does not eat. The other does go near the food and appears interested but doesn't eat. Neither of them have sunken bellies which is unusual because they either haven't been eating or barely eating.

In the 20L quarantine, all of them except for the one wild female I mentioned are eating or making an effort to eat. The one little S. fryeri I have in there actually appeared to have not only eaten flakes but went after a 3mm pellet in there and if he keeps it up for the next few days I was going to consider putting him back in the main tank to free up some room.

~Ed


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2008)

I have some disturbing news...

In the 29gal I took a closer look today for the first time in like 3 days and noticed a huge hole on the right side of one of the Lichnos, and on two other fish I saw similar holes on the sides but a lot smaller.

I couldn't net him out to get a close up shot but I did take three high res shots that generally show the affected area here: http://www.toadscastle.net/marduk/what%20the/

At first thought I immediately figured this was hole in the head disease, but I did dose small amounts of metro a few times AND clout which is what I have been dosing daily in that tank has metro in it as well.

And I had a chat with Dave (daves fish) for immediate opinion and he said it doesn't sound like hole in the head if I got a hole that big that fast.

What the heck is wrong with the fish? Is that actually columnaris or something else?

What should I do to treat them? What med should I start dosing now instead of Clout?

~Ed


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2008)

After looking at that picture I took, I don't think that's the fish that has it real bad. One of them has a hole like half the size of dime if not larger (not larger than a dime though) and appears darker in color than the one in the pictures. That may be the one but I am not sure. I remember seeing at least 2, maybe 3 fish with obvious holes...all on their right side too.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I don't see what you are talking about in the pics.

Again, I seriously believe I would clean the tank up and rid it of any medications, Ed. It's impossible to tell what is going on at this point, and I wouldn't want to advise throwing more meds in the tank.

Unfortunately, when you buy alot of wild fish, you take a bigger risk of introducing unusual problems into your tanks that we don't deal with everyday with tank raised fish. IMO, it's not worth the risk.

I would rid the tanks of meds (with fresh carbon) and do some daily water changes for a week or so, and see how the fish react.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2008)

I honestly don't now how you didn't see what I was talking about... If you looked on the right side over by the pectoral fins you'd see a huge hole. The color of it is washed out from the flash but it's there...

Anyway I zoomed up and circled the affected area so it would be easier for you to see:




























I don't know why you brought up the wild fish. This tank that the Lichnos are in has NEVER had wild fish in it for over a year, and I've broken down the tank and cleaned it twice since then...

And the 265g, while it does have wild fish in it, I haven't introduced wild fish in there since I first set that tank up last December... And even those wild fish have already been in the country for months...

I am not going to rid that 29gallon of meds... I've asked a few people their opinions and after seeing they agreed something is wrong and said I should treat the tank asap with Furan-2 or a similar medication and raise the salinity to 5% or 2tbsp of salt per 5gallons..

Personally, to be on the safe side, I wanted to double check with you that Furan-2 would help the fish heal up that huge hole on it's side, and the other two fish I have that have smaller holes (at the same area too...).

Please take a close look. If you need me to, I will net the fish out if I have to and do a super-macro shot of the affected area out of water. There definitely is a hole there and in my opinion it appears to be an Ulcer likely caused by a bacterial infection... I want to treat asap tomorrow before the hole gets too big and even exposes the fishes insides allowing for fungus to grow....

~Ed


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I see the areas now, but they don't go all the way through? (No redness or indication that there is infection...)

The reason I brought up the wild fish is because you've had alot of problems since you got them. You've had far more problems in your tank than the average hobbyist ever has. You don't have to keep the wild fish in the same tanks as the other fish, you can transfer things with nets, siphon hoses, your hands, etc...

IMO, it's definitely something to consider. :wink:

I don't know if the Furan 2 is going to aid in healing these areas or not. Since they don't appear to be infected, daily water changes and some Melafix might do the job just as well, and would certainly be less stressful for the fish than adding more meds.

As for what caused the meds, parasitic issues usually result in the holes going all the way into the internal organs of the fish - as if the parasite erupted from the inside. This doesn't look like what happened in this case, now that I can see the pics better.

The wound or hole looks very clean...So clean that it was difficult for me to see on the first pics.

You can certainly do whatever you want to, Ed. You asked me to respond to this thread via pm and tell you what I thought, and I have. I just think you tend to overmedicate your fish, and when you do that, it makes it hard to tell what's going on when you really need to determine a potential problem or course of action. I do not believe this is Columnaris.

My suggestion to clear the meds out of the tank was made so that once the tank was void of medication, you might be able to get a better grasp of what is going on with your fish. Too many antibiotics can wipe out the digestive system of a fish just as quickly as disease can, and this can result in a fish not eating or behaving oddly.

I _would_ give serious attention to the fact that your fish always have health problems, and try to determine the root of the problems.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2008)

The fish don't always have health problems...

The most recent one was the already injured wild fish that I got for my other tank that I removed after she wasn't improving and placed in a separate container for treatment.

The second most recent was also from that same tank back in like June or July where I had a bloat out break that killed 4 fish, but Metro saved the rest...

And then before that back in like March I had a bloat out break in my 29gal with Tyrannochromis f1s, two died but the rest including already severely bloated ones survived after being treated with clout....

And then back in February I had a few fish get infected with something in my main tank, probably got sick from the tank cycling and they weren't responding to clout or metronidasole even though they were bloating and had all the classic signs of bloat and were dying fast, I was told to separate them and treat them with Furan-2, Tetracycline and Metronidasole and Salt and it saved all but one of them...

I don't think I have that many problems... That's only like three problems the past year that happened in my tanks, and one that already came injured and sick but I wasn't aware when I purchased her (I tried to make an effort to hand pick the healthiest and most robust wild specimens, apparently I overlooked the injury on the one).

The problem with the wound though is that it is also on a few other fish but smaller, and on the one with the largest wound it does appear a tiny bit pink, and it appears deep and I am not sure but I think I can see organs...

And with the nets, I do see your point about the potential of transfering illnesses but I do pretty much have separate nets for each tank... I have a really large 3ft long net for my large tank, a black net for my 120g, a green net for my smaller fry tanks, a brine shrimp net for my guppy fry tank, and another larger green net that I use whenever needed (usually when unpacking fish).... The nets are always dry before I use them, and I don't recall a single moment where I moved the nets from tank to tank while they were still wet...

Anyway, I'm not trying to constantly disprove your theories. It's just that I don't see why you just can't take my word that there's a huge hole on the side of my fish or that a few fish are suddenly sick and aren't responding to metro treatment...

And the reason I do want to use Furan-2 is because I fear it could be caused by a parasite or bacterial infection since holes are on more than one fish, they seem to get larger slightly by the day, etc... Otherwise I would just use Melafix because I have used it in the past and it did help clean up wounds...

~Ed


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2008)

Interestingly, when I fed Mysis shrimp, Brine Shrimp and Pure Spirulina Flakes (<----forgot I even had those flakes...I bought them last year and since then they were buried in my freezer) the two big sick ones APPEARED to have eaten a few shrimps, but they will not touch nor go near the others when I feed pellets or flakes (been feeding spirulina flakes and cichlid flakes, and 1mm and 3mm dainichi pellets).

The one is being very reclusive while the other acts normal, just mouths food a lot. And the one is still showing stringy feces...

Anyway I did a 4/5 water change while vacuuming all the visible GREEN feces and flakes and when I filled it back up the catfishes were all full of energy (must've not liked the metro in the water, one of the plants died too) so I didn't add Metro and instead just added a few handfuls of salt.

I figured I'd take your advice on that tank and give them a break again with no meds and see how they respond this time around, if more get sick again like last time or if they are indeed improved after all this time. I'm going to keep feeding mysis/brine and spirulina flakes and keeping an eye on the two sick ones.

Oh, and one of the other fish, my taiwan reef, that was being very reclusive and not eating started eating again two days ago and has normal feces again. He was more than happy as a herbivore to munch on the spirulina flakes (the tank gets a mostly carnivorous diet, though there are veggies in the pellets and flakes and hair algae on the rocks).

In the 20L, one of the fish is cured and is eating pellets again and has normal feces. It's been a few days since he's been eating so I am going to leave him in there for a few more, and if he's still the same I am going to reintroduce him back into the 265g.

In the 29gal lichnos tank, I did two major water changes and added carbon to get any remaining clout out. I did discover though that I did leave carbon in the tank by accident when I started clout treatment a week or two ago meaning that for probably a week the lichnos were only exposed to the clout partially as it was absorbed into the carbon, leaving me to wonder if what you said about the possibility of a parasite making the hole on the fish and not a bacterial infection. Either way, I'm going to start Furan-2 treatment to help prevent fungus and heal up those holes.

And speaking of the holes, they are all bigger and the one that has the really large one, his hole got deeper and some of his flesh is hanging off... Tonight I added 6 tablespoons of salt to help until I add Furan-2 tomorrow...

~Ed


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

IMO, 3 instances of health problems in the past year is too much. It indicates that something just isn't right.

For instance, I've not had any illness in my tanks in over 2 years. The last disease introduced to my tanks came with 3 groups of wild fish I purchased, and only affected those wild fish while they were still in QT...It didn't spread to my other tanks. Things like that are to be expected, especially when purchasing wild fish.

I'm appreciative that you're so attentive to your fish and I can see that you're very dedicated to taking care of them. :thumb:

Because of the concern and care that you show, it's hard to figure out how the fish are becoming ill to start with...So, you have to consider transfer and the overuse of medications as being possible factors.

Too many antibiotics can wipe out the good bacteria that your fish need to survive, as well as the bad bacteria - and I'm not just talking about the bacteria in the water column of the tank. When this happens, the fish's immune system is severely compromised, leaving the fish wide open to one ailment after another.

Your mom is a nurse, right? Ask her what overmedicating can do in this respect...I try not to compare humans to fish, but in the case of medications, it's a fair comparison.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2008)

Today before I started Furan-2 treatment for the ulcers to prevent infection I looked at the holes again and noticed that the one with the big hole now has white stuff around it and hanging off.

I think it's safe for me to assume that it is Fungus... My question is, will Furan-2 still treat both the hole and fungus are should I use Triple-sulfa? (triple sulfa box says it treats fungus, Furan-2 doesn't say it does.)

~Ed


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

It's hit or miss whether the whitish area you are seeing is fungus or not. It could just as easily be a bacterial infection.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

The fungus disappeared on the one with the large hole, but now I see the white fungus on another fish with a smaller hole.

For now, I am going to continue treatment with 2tbsp of salt per 5 gallons and furan-2, unless you think I should use Triple Sulfa in stead.

In the 265g, just the two big fish are still sick. The exochochromis is still being reclusive and is NOT interested at all in the flake or pellet foods. The Lichnochromis is still very interested and non-reclusive by mouths both flakes and pellets. I was thinking of doing a major water change today and added a small amount of carbon and starve the tank til sometime this weekend and see how they go after the food then. If they still don't go after it, I was thinking of first taking the exochochromis out and putting him in the 20L and treat him with clout or something to see if that helps him....

Anyway I wanted to ask you. Do you think it's possible that some of the fish could have internal bacterial infections and not parasite infections, which would explain why the metro and clout in the 265g and the 20L aren't helping some of the fish?

~Ed


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2008)

All the fungus is gone and the hole on the one appears to be healing up. It looks like it may leave a nasty scar though...

Someone I spoke to said that the ulcers could've been caused by an outbreak of some sort of flesh eating bacteria. I forget what exact kind he said though.

Anyway in the 20L yet another fish started eating today and even had normal feces for the first time in weeks. When my new digital scale comes in the mail I am going to stop clout treatment in the 20L and dose Oxytetracycline hydrochloride because the Buccochromis rhoadesi is still not responding, and another wild fish in the 20L still isn't eating so I figured since she is starving (hasn't eating since beginning of last month) I'd try an antibiotic to help her in addition to the Bucco.

In the 265g I am also going to dose the Oxytetracycline hydrochloride. The two fish in there still are not recovering after nearly 2 weeks of clean water so I am going to dose the tank directly. Any parasites should've been killed by the Metronidasole so hopefully the Tetracycline will kill whatever else is bothering them. The person I spoke to suggested that they could have a secondary internal bacterial or fungal infection caused by the parasite or whatever else it is.

Anyway, the point is for the most part the fish are slowly getting better. I'll just have to be more vigilant and religious with water changes from now on to help prevent problems like this from happening in the future...

~Ed


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2008)

My scale arrived today and I dosed the 20L. If the Lethrinops and S. fryeri keep eating by this weekend I am going to remove them to the 265g.

Currently I am dosing the Oxytetracycline hydrochloride at exactly 4.8grams per 20 gallons at least (but no more than three times) twice daily.

In my 265g, after realizing that I'd need 63.8grams of the ARG brand of Oxytetracycline, I decided to just use the rest of my old stock of a different brand of the med that expires next month for 2-3 doses, the first dose being today. The idea is to wipe out any harmful bacteria that could still be lurking in the water, and to treat the two sick ones. During this period I am not going to feed and if I do it will be a very small amount of 1mm pellets.

*Also, a new symptom appeared on my Exochochromis*. Now I am seeing some redness (sores? I am not sure. It appears kind of like how a red rash would on human skin) on the underside of the Exochochromis male near the gills. I am now until the impression that at least him is infected with some sort of bacterial infection or internal fungal infection, or yet again something else. It shouldn't be a parasite since it would've been killed by the metronidasole. Anyway the tank water was clean for I guess nearly two weeks now and they still haven't improved much at all...

*If you think I should try an alternative medication than Tetracycline in light of the new symptom I am noticing let me know.*

~Ed


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## jennye0 (May 27, 2008)

Hey Marduk,
The fish with the hole on its side looks like it might have had bloat, because sometimes it causes them to blow a hole on their side. All my fish had bloat last week and I treated the tank with metro. They all healed quickly but later I noticed one of my aulonocaras had a hole like that on its side. I separated him and started giving him salt dips so it wouldnt get infected and the hole completely closed in less thatn 5 days. Then about to days ago I noticed that the other side of the fish was starting to get a small hole, and he died yesterday. My guess is he still had infection inside his body.










You could try salt dips if you want, they seem to work the best for me when my fish get infection. It also completely cured my acei from columnaris once.


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2008)

I looked up Columnaris again and I think the Lichnos have it... Those fungus things looked just like small whitehead pimples as described in the library article, and besides stopping eating for a while they did sometimes linger at the surface (not for extended periods of time, just for a few minutes at a time). Right now though the Furan-2 appears to be working though with healing up the large ulcers.

I do still see some go up to the surface sometimes though.

*ALSO the Lethrinops in the 20g appears that it has Bacterial Gill Disease. His gills are blood red and VERY swollen on his throat. At first I just though it was his colors because he does have a reddish colored throat but after looking closer I can see that it's his gills.

Currently that tank has around 5% salinity (1 cup salt per 20g) and past few days I have been dosing Oxytetracycline hydrochloride at 240mg/gal or 4.8g/20gal. Should I do anything else or just keep dosing twice daily? *

~Ed


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2008)

I have been thinking that what I am seeing on the lethrinops maybe is just it's coloration since he did have red on his throat. But his gills themselves are red. To be sure I am going to take a picture tonight or tomorrow to try and verify if it is a bacterial infection or if I am just paranoid. If he's fine, he's going back into the main tank because he's has a healthy appetite the past 2-3 weeks and regained his weight.

Unfortunately I made the decision to euthanize my F1 Protomelas spilonotus tanzania Liuli 7-8" male and my A. swallowtail peacock 6" male today or tomorrow. The peacock has been eating the past 2 weeks but I am concerned because he has not gained his weight back and doesn't have a healthy appetite like he should, just a small appetite. And the Protomelas has been eating on and off. I decided my priority is tank stability in the 265g and I want to fish out the last two sick fish which are both 8", but I needed room in the 20Long. My priority I guess is to take care of the expensive ones first too.

Otherwise, the 265g has been stable the past 2-4 weeks. All the other fish in there that I left in there that were sick were cured by the Metronidasole. The two remaining are the Lichnochromis 8" male and the Exochochromis 8" male. I am VERY optimistic about the lichnochromis as he still makes an effort to eat and is still active in the tank. The exochochromis I am going to euthanize if he doesn't get better from tetracycline and then clout (if metronidasole, clout, and tetracycline and even clean water for two weeks won't cure him, nothing will and I am NOT going to keep trying to rear him. Being sick for a month is ridiculous already...).

My plan is to after I get the two fish out of the 265g and do a 50% water change (can't even see the back of the tank anymore, it's dark red from the tetracycline) to let the remaining antibiotic sit in the tank for a week, but half way I am going to turn the uv sterilizer back on and add a small amount of carbon, and then do a major water change at the end of that week to remove all the remaining antibiotic. The idea was to attempt to treat the two fish and to wipe out any free swimming harmful bacteria...pretty much wipe everything both beneficial and harmful from the tank.

In the 29gallon the fish are stable. I am keeping an eye still on the one Lichnochromis that has the dark spot. After I finish Furan-2 treatment in there I am going to keep the water clean but with a cup of salt in it to help prevent a return of what I suspect was columnaris. The one fish's ulcer is also almost completely closed up.

Anyway I am just glad I am getting near the end of this whole problem...it has been a disaster for me. I am just glad that everything is going well in my 120g with the ~$1,000 worth of fish in there. Once the 265g is stable and I sell off some of the fish to make room after a few weeks, I want to add a lot of the new fish in the 120g into the 265g to be their home.

~Ed


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2008)

*jennye0*
My fish had a similar hole to that, but my guys didn't get holes until after weeks after they were already swimming in Clout. It can't be from bloat, because it should've been cured by the clout. My guess is they had columnaris and the clout helped subdue the bacteria and help the fish fight it. Once I saw the ulcers and then the white pimple I knew it was actually a bacterial infection bothering them and they are all healing up now....

That hole on your fish does look VERY nasty though... What probably happened is the internal damage from bloat caused a bacterial infection that killed your fish... From my research there are LOTS of bacteria that can cause ulcers on fish, but from what I read in the library article on columnaris the white pimple on or near the ulcer is from columnaris...

This is the article I read: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/c ... %20example

And the part that identifies the white pimple thing: "â€˜On the fourth day I noticed the scale that was turned up, now looked like a small pimple, all white, around 3ml in diameter and about the same in distance protruding from the body.â€™"

On my Lichnos it wasn't a scale that was like that but definitely the exact same kind of white pimple protruding from the infected area.

To me, that description on that article about the white pimple thing confirmed for me that they were infected with columnaris. For a while though I assumed it was probably aeromonas or another similar bacteria that causes ulcers...

~Ed


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2008)

RIP My male Exochochromis anagenys. Found him floating around in the 265g this morning. At first I didn't know what I saw because the tetracycline made the water a dark brown...I can barely see the fish in there. Well at least now I don't have to worry about euthanizing him.

Anyway I was going to do maybe like 5-6 major water changes today to get the water super clean for the fish and get the uv sterilizer up and running again, and then if the Lichnochromis doesn't resume eating tomorrow I was going to separate him into the 20L and get the 265g under control and medication free for now.

And if the Lichnochromis doesn't eat, I was considering force feeding him crushed pellets or flakes through a syringe with air tubing going down his throat. If I do this though it will only be once a week or once every other week just to make sure he has energy. Because of how rare he is, he is the only one I am willing to give special treatment and rear him for no longer than one extra month to try and get him to recover. Otherwise, I'll euthanize him by freezing as well.

Anyway I didn't get any chances to do water changes last week up to today, so I didn't feed any of the tanks at all except for the 120g which I only fed twice...they've been getting a little nippy on my albino taiwan reef in there forcing him to hide on the gravel but since he still comes up and swims around and eats when he sees me and when I feed I am not worried. I am going to have to sell him soon anyway since the tank he is in will be made into a species/fry grow out tank soon.

My plan though is after I get the 265g pretty much sterile clean and add carbon (was going to recharge my purigen too sometime this week) and euthanize the two fish in the 20L and get the Lichnochromis in there if he isn't better after swimming in two doses of tetracycline for a week is to get the 20L sterile for a few days as well, then resume tetracycline treatment for a week and then clean the tank again and then dose clout for the remaining time. If the Lichnochromis isn't better by that time, and hasn't recovered from pure tetracycline and clout treatments then pretty much nothing will save him. I gave them every oppurtunity to recover from a week of clean water before they got sick, to swimming in metronidasole, to swimming in clean med-free water for two weeks and then swimming in a small dose concentration of tetracycline for two weeks....

Anyway here's pics of the fish I lost today. I wasn't really upset, since I was expecting him to not recover and was going to euthanize him any day now anyway with either bleach (the chlorine should pretty much instantly K.O. the fish right?) or freezing him. Still was a bummer because he was one of my favorite fishes.

You can also see him in the video here: 































He was a nice specimen... Oh well... I'm more worried about the Lichnochromis though since they are one of my all time favorite haplochromines...

~Ed


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## jennye0 (May 27, 2008)

Sorry for your loss, he was a very nice fish. Good luck with your lichnochromis, hope he gets better.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2008)

Great news so far. My Lichnochromis acuticeps PIGGED OUT on San Francisco Bay Brand Frozen Plankton (basically it's baby krill, more specifically it is E. pacifica...it's a tiny bit larger than mysis shrimp) and swallowed except for a few super small pieces of garbage he spit up.

I'm going to try again tomorrow or the next day. And when my LFS gets live feeder grass shrimp back in stock I will give him that too...

He still won't swallow pellets or flakes anymore though...keeps mouthing the pellets. If he keeps eating the shrimps though and gains his weight back I'll be thrilled to declare him as being cured...

~Ed


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