# Confused on Cross Breeding Mbuna



## keg75 (Feb 6, 2006)

Hi All,

I am looking to restock my tank. With my stocking selection I have a good variety of colour and characteristics. Which is pleasing to the eye, which is the main purpose.

Anyway I currently have the following species

Cynotilapia Afra (Cobue) 
Labidochromis Caerulus (Electric Yellow) 
Melanochromis Cyaneorhabdos (Maingano)
Metriclima Estherae (Red Zebra)
Pseudotropheus SP Acei (Msuli Pt)

I am looking to add some fish and am concerned about cross breeding.

I know that fish in certain conditions will mate with other species ie a cyno with a labido, but am not concerned as I do have male and female of each species and the fish rarely produce offspring that survive past fry stage (but i'm going to change that soon).

Have in my selection eliminated any other fish which have the species names cynotilapa, Labidochromis, Melanochromis, Metriclima or Pseudotropheus? 
Is a Cynotilapia Afra (Cobue) able to mate readily with a Cynotilapia sp. "Mbamba" or a Pseudotropheus SP Acei able to get jiggy with a Pseudotropheus socolofi?

Why do they use a SP. in the name is it to confuse people or is there a reason for it.

Please let me know asap as I am hunting for options (to search for in my LFS), hopefully I'll get some options tomorrow.

Look forward to reading your responses and hopefully I am not going to be limited to gephyrochromis, iodotropheus, labeotropheus, petrotilapia and tropheos.

:fish: Keg75 :fish:


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

What are the dimensions of your tank, you have a lot of species already?

You already have a likely cross-breeding combination with the yellow labs and red zebras in the tank. You could remove one of those or not save any from from either.

I am very conservative in my mixing, but I would not add additional species in any of the families you already have except pseudotropheus. And that would be if you have an 8 foot tank, LOL!

Do you have problems with the cobue coloring up in your tank? I would think they would feel sub-dom to the zebras and maingano?


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## why_spyder (Mar 2, 2006)

keg75 said:


> Is a Cynotilapia Afra (Cobue) able to mate readily with a Cynotilapia sp. "Mbamba" or a
> 
> Why do they use a SP. in the name is it to confuse people or is there a reason for it.


Those Cynotilapia can cross, but my guess is that they won't if kept in good ratios. Males and females are different looking in color, size, and shape. What I'd be more cautious about is temperment - the C. sp. mbamba's are more aggressive than what C. afra Cobwe will be.

The "sp." notation simply stands for the fish not being officially described.

By the way, if you get the C. sp. mbamba's - a location is a must! There several different locations - here's just a few of the more common ones I know of:

Mphanga Rocks
Lion's Cove
Nkhata Bay
Kakusa
Senga Bay


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I would advise against keeping two Cyntotilapia species together if breeding and distributing fry is something you're considering. IMO, it's just too risky. I wouldn't buy fry/juvies from anyone who housed two species together.

You said you had a male and female of each species. Are you aware that these are harem breeders, not pairing fish? Each male requires multiple females, not just one.

Depending on the size of the tank, you may not need to add any more species, you may actually need to remove some of what you have and build on the breeding groups of the remaining species.

DJR is right, the Yellow labs and red zebras should not be housed together if you plan to breed and distribute any fry, so you already have one potential cause for hybridization.


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## keg75 (Feb 6, 2006)

This is a long response bear with me and please leave your comments.



DJRansome said:


> What are the dimensions of your tank, you have a lot of species already?


I have a 36" x 14" x 26" (LxDxH) tank, with DIY background, volume of water is approx 190-200 (as background displaces a decent amount of volume). The DIY BG has holes shaped behind the "rock" for hidy spots. With regard to BG I have fooled just abut everyone who's seen it - Every time some asks "how did you get the rocks to do that" I thoroughly love it!!... 



DJRansome said:


> You already have a likely cross-breeding combination with the yellow labs and red zebras in the tank. You could remove one of those or not save any from from either.


WOW okay, I didn't think they would be so much of an issue considering they aren't in the same species group ie labidochromis and metriclima. They have never really shown any interest towards each other that I've noticed. What do you mean by remove them, your sentence was a little jumbled. Why are the LAB and METS such a danger for crossbreeding - they are diff species and look nothing like one another.



DJRansome said:


> I am very conservative in my mixing, but I would not add additional species in any of the families you already have except pseudotropheus. And that would be if you have an 8 foot tank, LOL!


I was just thinking of a labeotropheus possibly, but i'm yet to decide. By adding Pseudo's wouldn't they mate with each other potentially? This is my confusion you read articles etc that sugest any sub groups of a species can cross breed and shouldn't be mixed, then you are informed that you can mix them. I don't have an 8' yet but i intend to shortly (once I find a carpenter to do my furniture (ie tv cabinet and 2 fish tanks matching for a good price).



DJRansome said:


> Do you have problems with the cobue coloring up in your tank? I would think they would feel sub-dom to the zebras and maingano?


Not really - I have - it appears 3 male cobue in the tank at the moment, that appear to be adults - they take up a 3rd of the tank each for their territory (they each ahve a hole). They are very colourful and will take on just about anyone in the tank inc the male maingano and zebras.... I think cobue are a beautiful fish (and would cosider a tank of just these). These are the only fish that have produced offspring (1 fish) past the fry stage other than the maingano (2 fish) . Cutting a long story short - upon cleaning my prof3 filter I noticed a splash in the waste water bucket - looking closer I found a juvenile cobue, he was bigger than intake vents of the filter by a long shot so I suspect he could have been in the filter some time, poor bugger.



why_spyder said:


> Those Cynotilapia can cross, but my guess is that they won't if kept in good ratios. Males and females are different looking in color, size, and shape. What I'd be more cautious about is temperment - the C. sp. mbamba's are more aggressive than what C. afra Cobwe will be.
> 
> The "sp." notation simply stands for the fish not being officially described.
> 
> ...


I wasn't expecting to put any more of the Cyno's together it was just an example. I think in a cookie cutter tank the moderators mention it's not a good idea along with not mixing Labs. The mbamba was an example only, but I'll check em out for tank #4 (the yet to be purchased 8') if I go the mbuna route over haps.

With regards to the look of the fish if you got two pseudo's that were distinctly different in colouring what is the likelyhood of type "a" wanting to get jiggy with type "b"?

Thanks about the sp. nomenclature. I did research and didn't see anything that jumped out about what you wrote. I guess as certain fish haven't been researched enough they get this designation, I guess that also explains why fish can be re-categorised as they have in the past.



cichlidaholic said:


> I would advise against keeping two Cyntotilapia species together if breeding and distributing fry is something you're considering. IMO, it's just too risky. I wouldn't buy fry/juvies from anyone who housed two species together.
> 
> You said you had a male and female of each species. Are you aware that these are harem breeders, not pairing fish? Each male requires multiple females, not just one.
> 
> ...


I am trying to reduce cross breeding by selectively picking species. which is whole point of the post, I'm confused :? :-? :? about what can be mixed. My friends brother in-law has cichlids also, and they bread at such a prolific rate that he gives them away. I'd like to avoid this scenario happening in future. It's cool to have fry reach maturity and if I increase stocking levels to get good ratios (male: females) then I may have a fry problem on my hands. If I have a explosion in population then I'd rather sell the fish to the LFS (obviously hybridisation becomes a problem for this though).

If I have at least 1 male and female per species, I assume they would be less likely to mate with other species. Obviously this can't be ruled out though. I have tried to maintain a harem style setup but I have had a few stock losses (for various reasons) and haven't restocked in a while - ie with the maingano I have a male and female in the 3' I originally had 5 fish (1 had to be segregated to avoid major agression between two brothers over their mother (sick little buggers). I will try and get stock list done and try and give a gender breakdown aswell. I would appreciate if you could provide a ratio of male to female for my list above if possible.

My focus really isn't to breed I'd like the fish in a happy environment and consequence of that is breeding. Obviously population explosions need to be controlled and if the tank is over stocked and breeding space is limited it makes it hard for fry to be created and ultimatley survive. It would be good to have fry maturing at a rate that is equal to the mortality rate (which i'd like to avoid). That sounds a bit confused but it is 2:03am at the moment).

Anyway it's a long post - thanks for taking the time to read it and hopefully you have some thoughts to add to alleviate my confusion.

Thanks 
:fish: Keg75 :fish:


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## bac3492 (Jul 25, 2008)

I dont think that will work in a 3ft tank. especially with the maingano. Mbuna like a long space rather than tall. You also cant buy pairs of fish, you need plenty of females to keep the males occupied. If you want to have color and just happy fish, you might want to go with an all male tank, maybe even drop mbuna all together. There are always problems that will be small or large because of their aggression.


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## keg75 (Feb 6, 2006)

The maingano isn't a problem the balance of power is fairly even between the 3 male cobue, the male maingano and the two zebra (not sure sex). I can't tell whch specific fish is the overall dominant one.

The male maingano used to be top dog in the tank but the zeb's usually sort him out. The maingano currently only has one female to harrass this is due to losses and segregation, which is why I want to get some juvenille females (ideally) to even out the harrassment. The female in the tank is hardly ever seen as she keeps a low profile from the male.

I'd like to get more females so I can try bringing the isolated male back into the community.
The segregated maingano has previously been trialed with the community but there was a fair amount of aggression between the two males. So much so that I had to get them seperated before they killed each other.

I like the mbuna I also like haps but have never kept them. my intentin is to get a 7-8 foot tank and transfer the mbuna to that then have the 3' for haps or possibly tanganika a tank.

Thats a bit of background regarding the maingano and crew. 
From what I'm reading I should not wrry about intro of another species and focus on optimising my stock levels for the current tank. What stock levels and ratios would you suggest for the current config assuming I didnt add another species.

I'm still interested to know more info on the original post as I am going to need to know for my stocking of the future 7-8' tank. I'd lke to know what speacies ie pseudo, will go together and whats a no no regarding cross breeding ie mets and labs.

keg75


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

> I didn't think they would be so much of an issue considering they aren't in the same species group ie labidochromis and metriclima.


It is because they look so similar. Cross breeding between species has much les to do with actual taxonomy, and everything to do with what the fish look like to each other. They may look different enough to your eyes, but this perticular cross is currently quite a plague in the hobby. They may be ignoring each other now, but when they reach sexual maturity it will become quite a problem, besdies a 3ft tank is WAY too small for red zebras even by them selves due to their aggression levels as adults.

Any mouth brood can and will cross with any other mouth brooder in less than ideal settings. An imbalance in the sex ratios is the biggest issue, but a hyperdominant male of anyspecies could easily take over an entire tank and breed with every female present regardless of the ratios.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

I wouldn't keep more than three species in a 3ft tank, so I wouldn't add anything at all, and I'd even think about reducing the numbers.

Personally, I believe that the estherae and maingano are likely to become too large and aggressive for the tank size.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Knowing the dimensions of the tank, I agree with Fogelhund 100%.

I also believe those acei are going to outgrow a 3 ft tank, I would advise 4 ft minimum for a group of acei. They aren't as aggressive as the estherae and maingano, but they do get big, and they do like to swim the length of the tank.

I think we're getting a bit confused over the male and female of a species thing...Whether _you_ want to breed or not, the fish will make the final decision. If you have just a pair of a species, the poor female can be harrassed literally to death without other females to take some of the heat from the male. It's not just about the crossbreeding aspect of housing them this way. :thumb:


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## Floridagirl (Jan 10, 2008)

Unfortunately, I agree with Fogelhound. It's so hard to start over when you get attached to your fish, but, what about a Saulosi breeding group. Or Rusty, or Demasoni? They are all smaller in size. You could do yellow labs also. I species and you would be sure about fry. You could possibly try two Saulosi and Rusties would give you 4 different looking fish. Saulosi males are blue/ black bars , females yellow/orange. Rusties males are orangy, purplish, females are lighter orange. Also, Some small Synodontis species can help keep the fry population down...Petricolas? Good Luck!


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## keg75 (Feb 6, 2006)

> It is because they look so similar. Cross breeding between species has much les to do with actual taxonomy, and everything to do with what the fish look like to each other


But one type is yellow and the other is orange... ??? Stupid fish!!! or is it more than just that. ie shape, characteristics.



> but when they reach sexual maturity


All the species in my tank have individuals that are mature. I have noticed that my LABS are wooing each other which is the first time I've seen that. I had a mature one and 2 juveniles. so I suspect the juv's have matured or coming into maturity.

The zebras don't get too aggressive to the point of chasing continuously.. one sits in the middle of the tank - the other hangs out lower they do face off against each other and every now and then they chase other fish - but I don't see that as problematic. The largest zebra is approx 5" now.

It appears I need to get my 8' ordered (which is going to cause an arguement about the depth of it with the Mrs as 24" deep cause a walk way issue) to alleviate any potential stress on the fish.

Wouldn't a hyper dominate male be a problem in any tank? What is solution if this occurs removal of the subject or buy more targets for him?



> I wouldn't keep more than three species in a 3ft tank, so I wouldn't add anything at all, and I'd even think about reducing the numbers.
> 
> Personally, I believe that the estherae and maingano are likely to become too large and aggressive for the tank size.


What about overstocking of tanks - are your guys opinion that it is not the best approach?

The mainagno and zebra have full size individuals and no problems are occuring at present that casue me concern. I don't like it when a particular fish gets pummeled by another I don't get any kicks out of the see fish killed and it bugs the **** out of me when a fish is constantly chased (as has happened previously in my tetra tank).



> Knowing the dimensions of the tank, I agree with Fogelhund 100%.
> 
> I also believe those acei are going to outgrow a 3 ft tank, I would advise 4 ft minimum for a group of acei. They aren't as aggressive as the estherae and maingano, but they do get big, and they do like to swim the length of the tank.
> 
> I think we're getting a bit confused over the male and female of a species thing...Whether you want to breed or not, the fish will make the final decision. If you have just a pair of a species, the poor female can be harrassed literally to death without other females to take some of the heat from the male. It's not just about the crossbreeding aspect of housing them this way.


I'll list the stock and sex (if known) of each type below so you can see what i have rather than just a species list. i have an acei that 5-6" now he's awesome looking and do think he's a little cramped now. So thinking the 7-8' is going occur sooner than later..

Yeah the discussion is tending more to the stocking of the tank rather than what species are available to be added to this community. I'd like to understand about more about why we can readily added psuedo's yet cyno are a not recomended...

The fish stocking and sexing (as best as i can determine) is here... (how do you do tables :-? )

Cynotilapia Afra (Cobue)
5 fish, 3 male, 2 female (due to mating and lack of restocking) originally i purchased 4 fish with the hopes of having 1m 3f mix but I think I had 2m 2f mix.

Labidochromis Caerulus (Electric Yellow) 
3 fish, 1 male 2 female (possibly) it may be 2m 1 fm had 5 previously but they sucumbed to a mysterious disease due to my neglect (busy at work and being shattered after work) 1 fish is a lot older than the other two, one juv took an interest in the older fish recently. The 2nd juv I'm not sure is male or female.

Melanochromis Cyaneorhabdos (Maingano) 
2 fish, 1 male 1 female. I had a pair of fish initially they had 2 males that subsequently kill father and then mother I removed on of the sons to stop another murder. I added two new females but one died (for a crater looking hole in abdomen).

Metriclima Estherae (Red Zebra) 
2 fish, possibly 1 male and 1 female I did have 4 of these initially but 2 died.

Pseudotropheus SP Acei (Msuli Pt) 
I had 4 black acei ( suspect they are hybrid as they have a yellow tail not a white one as is shown in some pics. They haven't done well seem to get sick more readily then the others. I think I have one left.
The musli point I had 4 originally now I have 2 or 3, 1 large male and 2 females I think.

Plecostomus catfish - 1 monster 7" poo machine. He needs to get out of this tank as I have an effective depth of 8 (out of 14) that he can free swim in.

With the fish losses it sound alot but that is over 3 years of haveing my mbuna. I haven't restocked the fish since this time last year, the only addition recently (6-8months) has be a cobue male that was born (the one form the filter). I have been very busy at work and haven't done much around the house, with my fish or my friends (where did the last year go???)

Anyway I hope that helps - I do'nt think I've got too much fish at the moment I agree the ratios are out and need to do something about it.

Anyway please make comments as I'm appreciable for info provided.

cheers Keg75

p.s one question that off topic - the waste water (do you pour down the drain or does it go in the garden) am concerned about nitrogen killing grass and plants....


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

keg75 said:


> I need to get my 8' ordered


Agree :thumb:



keg75 said:


> Wouldn't a hyper dominate male be a problem in any tank? What is solution if this occurs removal of the subject or buy more targets for him?


I'd remove a hyper dominant male in a large well stocked tank. But first I would eliminate other causes of the abberant behavior.



keg75 said:


> What about overstocking of tanks - are your guys opinion that it is not the best approach


Overstocking a 36" tank is stocking it with 12 Demasoni (which works because they are dwarf). Take a look at the cookie cutter tanks in the Library. They show the correct level for an overstocked tank. For example, 15-18 full size mbuna in a 48" tank is an overstocked level.



keg75 said:


> i have an acei that 5-6" now he's awesome looking and do think he's a little cramped now. So thinking the 7-8' is going occur sooner than later..


 :thumb:



keg75 said:


> why we can readily added psuedo's yet cyno are a not recomended...


Pseudotropheus category is a holding place for diverse fish that have not yet been classified. The cyno's are distinguishable by their teeth so are known to be part of a more closely related group.



keg75 said:


> With the fish losses it sound alot but that is over 3 years of haveing my mbuna.


Some of the losses you describe do sound like they might be attributable to a lot of large fish in a small tank, however.



keg75 said:


> I do'nt think I've got too much fish at the moment.


 



keg75 said:


> the waste water (do you pour down the drain or does it go in the garden) am concerned about nitrogen killing grass and plants....


I pour mine down the drain as I need the water pressure to restart the suction on the Python multiple times during water changes on 4 tanks. But lots of people run the Python out the window. Nitrogen is ferilizer, it won't hurt plants.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

You are already overstocked in this size tank, that's the problem, and the species that you've chosen aren't going to adapt as they mature, things will just get worse.

Yes, I'd get the bigger tank soon, and certainly not add anymore fish. :thumb:


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## keg75 (Feb 6, 2006)

I don't get this overstocking issue - I've seen a display tank in an LFS that had a massive amount of fish. You could barely see the back of the tank - isn't that over stocking?

I have 15 fish in the tank whish is close to the 55G cookie cutter example below that suggests 12 fish. obviously I'm over the suggested limit but as I said I've had no problems with aggression, any losses are from my laziness.

Extract from http://cichlid-forum.com/articles/cookie_cutter_55g.php

From the Smaller, Less Aggressive Mbuna Aquarium

Select any 3 species (*max 12 fishes*): 
â€¢ Metriaclima estherae
â€¢ Pseudotropheus saulosi 
â€¢ Pseudotropheus sp. "Acei" 
â€¢ Labidochromis sp. "Hongi" 
â€¢ Labidochromis caeruleus 
â€¢ Labidochromis sp. "Perlmutt" 
â€¢ Labidochromis chisimulae 
â€¢ Iodotropheus sprengerae 
â€¢ Cynotilapia afra 
Do not mix any Labidochromis species.

I'll have to put some serious thought to my new tank. I'd like an 8'x24"26" (LxDxH) but it's going to cause a problem with the thoroughfare into my lounge/ hall from the front door. I'm thinking dropping the depth to 20" and have a chamfered corners (bay style tank). Better get cracking on a design I guess.

With the python does that waste water down the drain to create a suction for cleaning? Can you reverse flow for filling? I looked at python website (it appear not to have been updated since the 80's) and couldn't find a manual or anything about how it works.

Thanks for your advice thus far. I appeciate it.

ta Keg75

p.s. My DIY background cement is thinning out - could this be due to the mbuna picking at algae on the background or the pleco grinding on it for algae. Do you have any suggests how to fix it before the polystyrene shows through completely?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Oh, I see the source of your confusion. African tanks are stocked by footprint, not gallons, with the length of the tank being most important. The fish all want a piece of the bottom for their territories. Your tank is 36" x 14". A 55G tank is 48". A 36" tank would be stocked with a single species of dwarf mbuna for best odds of success. I have one, and did have 12 Demasoni plus 3 yellow labs in it. Some people have great success with that, but I did not like the aggression levels and upgraded to the 72" tank for the mbuna.

Then, the number of species makes a difference. Trios of 5 different species in a 55G would be a mix with low odds of success, while 3 species with 5 fish in each group (if they are full size mbuna) would be a mix with high odds of success. Fewer males to battle over the available footprint keeps the aggression down.

Regarding the LFS display tank...sometimes LFS tanks are successful because the fish are in them for a couple of weeks. If it's a long-standing display...well anything CAN work odds of success are lower with a bad mix.

Python...best fishkeeping invention ever. Well other than the discovery of the nitrogen cycle. To siphon, the running tap water starts and maintains (or restarts, if necessary) the suction. To refill, adjust temp of tap water and reverse direction to pump it into the tank instead of pull it out. Hard to explain but easy to understand once you try it.


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## Super Turtleman (May 21, 2007)

It seems to me that the information about your tank is here in front of you but you're reluctant to accept it. That pleco is way too big for your tank, plus all it's really doing is adding a huge amount of bioload to this without any real benefits (unless you REALLY enjoy him). You have too many speies and some that are really aggressive and it seems to me this tank will have a die off eventually (sooner if not later).

I'm not trying to be harsh and I'm not an expert by any means, but I've done a lot of reading and it looks like your tank is a recipe for disaster. If you wish to keep everything you've got, you need to build that 7-8' tank now...and we all know that those plans usually don't happen overnight...or within the month even. I would say you should focus on 2 species to keep in this tank and once you have your new monster set up, then you can decide on what you'd like from it. Also, I didn't read anything about what filtration you've got in there. If you've had this tank running with a similar stocklist for 2-3 years, you must have very good filtration and/or do a ton of water changes.

There is also the exception to every rule, and maybe someway somehow all this will work out for you in this tank. Either way, good luck. :thumb:


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## keg75 (Feb 6, 2006)

Thanks DJ!! I get it now. I thought it was based on volume like it is for Tetra. So it's more of a territory issue for the males. So if I had a tank full of females I could put em in a Sardine can LOL 

If you have fish that live at the top of the tank (acei) and then have fish that live at the middle (cobue) and the bottom (maingano) how do the territories work then?

I get what your saying about the ratio of species, obviosuly if you keep one type you get a great visual effect (like mass planting petunias) and their natural behaviours occur without harrassment from other species. Kim Jakobsen acheived that well with this tank....http://www.kim-jakobsen.dk/images/Akvarieoplysninger/Akv7 20070207.jpg (KJ won a tank of the month back in 2007 - he has a good selection of tanks here http://www.kim-jakobsen.dk/index_english.htm

The python works like a spraygun I suspect. The running tap water creates low pressure thus a vacuum and when your filling, it's just like a hose pipe. So if you extract 10Gal of water from a tank have you run 10 gallons from your faucet down the drain to create the vacuum? It would be good to have a system like a python that primes from the tap and then gravity cuts in like a standard syphon which would save water. Being in Australia water saving is a big concern.

Thanks again

Keg75

p.s. here's my tank


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## keg75 (Feb 6, 2006)

Super Turtleman said:


> It seems to me that the information about your tank is here in front of you but you're reluctant to accept it. That pleco is way too big for your tank, plus all it's really doing is adding a huge amount of bioload to this without any real benefits (unless you REALLY enjoy him). You have too many speies and some that are really aggressive and it seems to me this tank will have a die off eventually (sooner if not later).
> 
> I'm not trying to be harsh and I'm not an expert by any means, but I've done a lot of reading and it looks like your tank is a recipe for disaster. If you wish to keep everything you've got, you need to build that 7-8' tank now...and we all know that those plans usually don't happen overnight...or within the month even. I would say you should focus on 2 species to keep in this tank and once you have your new monster set up, then you can decide on what you'd like from it. Also, I didn't read anything about what filtration you've got in there. If you've had this tank running with a similar stocklist for 2-3 years, you must have very good filtration and/or do a ton of water changes.
> 
> There is also the exception to every rule, and maybe someway somehow all this will work out for you in this tank. Either way, good luck. :thumb:


I'm hearing you guys.

I need to get the big tank up n running but it comes down to organising a stand. I have my current 3' on breeze blocks and 2x4's it looks [email protected]#%, this was supposed to be temporary (2 years is long enough for temporary). My carpenter is useless with respect to timing but does fine work. To put into persepective I want a matching tv cabinet (tasmanian oak) - I got a quote from an independant carpenter and it was A$6000 my guy can do it for A$3500. Big difference in price! Thats a lot of fish food. The timing is an issue and I really need to put a stick of dynamite under his bum to get him moving. If I can get him to build a stand I'll do the tank very quick as my LFS can do them in 2-3weeks (diy background - will take 2 weeks) I could have everything moved over in 2-3months (after cycling)

Filtration I have a 2080 prof 3 on the 3' at the moment. I initially bought a 2028 prof 2 for the 3' but ran it on my 4' tetra tank. I got the prof 3 to ultimately run on the big beast tank but I have'nt got it yet, so the prof 3 is on my 3'. I think that's decent filtration - I don't do water changes often as I'm slack and I've been under the pump at work which takes it out of you. As I said in previous post I haven't had a life for past year.

I'm claiming my life back and part of that is getting stuff done around my house ie garden landscaping, finishing my fish tanks, finishing my pond & deck (started nov 06) but I've had numerous delays - breaking toe, bad weather, and various other **** we all have to deal with.

Once I've got my new tank up n running I'll be able to sort out my 3' - thinking of changing the BG. The one in there is thinning and you can see the foam.

Anyway I'm going to signoff tonight. But before I do DJRansome if I get the new tank up and running what amount of fish do you recommend as a maximum. Keep in mind it's foot print will be between 72 and 84 inches long by 18 to 24 inch deep possibly with 8-10" chamfered corners on the front.

Thanks keg75


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## Super Turtleman (May 21, 2007)

Keg, with a tank that big, your options are almost limitless. Instead of poeple telling you what you could put in it and how many, you should decide what you'd like to go with (mbuna, haps and peacocks) and go from there. Lots of potential with a tank that size...


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## why_spyder (Mar 2, 2006)

keg75 said:


> So it's more of a territory issue for the males. So if I had a tank full of females I could put em in a Sardine can LOL
> 
> If you have fish that live at the top of the tank (acei) and then have fish that live at the middle (cobue) and the bottom (maingano) how do the territories work then?


Please don't misunderstand, females can be aggressive too - I have a few of my own that will take a male and make him feel like a fry. Females are more free-roaming by nature, and don't hold down territories. However, they do have maternal instincts that can be triggered - and they will go on the offensive to keep a male or female away from them (especially if they are holding fry).

There is only a few species of mbuna (both male and female) which take to the open water readily (like_ Ps. acei_), most stay to the rocks (males at least). Females of all species are more apt to be top/middle strata swimmers like in nature. Males will stay towards the middle/bottom of the strata - securing a territory around/under/beside a structure (rock, fake plant, pot, decoration, etc.).

Some males take up larger territory than others. Species found in the sediment-free rocky biotope in the wild - will be more aggressive of their territories than species found closer to the sediment-rich/sandy biotope areas. The reason being that competition is higher in the sediment-free zones; there is better sunlight for biocover to grow.

So when you buy species that are found in the sediment-free area, they will be more likely to want more space in your tank because of their instinctual behavior. Get species that are closer to the open water/sandy zone, the species will be less dominating in your tank.

... that was a mouthful. Hope it wasn't too overbearing or confusing.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The fact that Acei do spend some of their time swimming at the top doesn't mean they don't need any territory on the bottom. They also want a four foot tank length. Malawi really don't fall into top, middle and bottom swimmers. They all want a piece of the bottom.

What you put in your big tank depends on the size because 84 x 24 has fewer restrictions than 72 x 18. I have a 72 x 18 tank and am very comfortable with a limit of 5 species (plus 3 species of catfish, which don't count for territories). And don't champher the corners if you want to maximize space and fish because that eliminates two corner territories that could otherwise be used.

If you go 72 x 18 you could keep the species you have and just fix the ratios. A group of 5-6 Synodontis Multipunctatus would take care of any fry so you wouldn't have to worry about the zebra-lab combination.

If you live in a water restricted are (my waste water just goes back to the aquifer), then use the Python as a siphon without the tap water to drain, and use tap water only for the refill part. Some people run the Python right out the window into the garden.


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## keg75 (Feb 6, 2006)

DJRansome said:


> The fact that Acei do spend some of their time swimming at the top doesn't mean they don't need any territory on the bottom. They also want a four foot tank length. Malawi really don't fall into top, middle and bottom swimmers. They all want a piece of the bottom.


Righto... If you have a DIY background can you create ledges that increase the foot print area for territory building? See figure for what I mean. The area of the ledge (near top has an area underneath that could also be used for territory building too.












DJRansome said:


> What you put in your big tank depends on the size because 84 x 24 has fewer restrictions than 72 x 18. I have a 72 x 18 tank and am very comfortable with a limit of 5 species (plus 3 species of catfish, which don't count for territories). And don't champher the corners if you want to maximize space and fish because that eliminates two corner territories that could otherwise be used.
> 
> If you go 72 x 18 you could keep the species you have and just fix the ratios. A group of 5-6 Synodontis Multipunctatus would take care of any fry so you wouldn't have to worry about the zebra-lab combination.


I don't know if I can get the 84"x24" past the missus. She doesn't want the tank to dominate the lounge room. The 24" depth will cut into the thorough fare to the point where you'd have to "squeeze" through from the front door to the lounge. The chamfering of the corners would make it easier to negotiate the tank. I got it solution - get a bigger house!!!



DJRansome said:


> If you live in a water restricted are (my waste water just goes back to the aquifer), then use the Python as a siphon without the tap water to drain, and use tap water only for the refill part. Some people run the Python right out the window into the garden.


I'd consider getting a python as I have 3 tanks currently and I empty them with a standard gravel filter and bucket and fill them with the hose (no temp adjusted water) or a large pot (with temp adjusted water). The water generally gets run down the street drain. I'll pour my next water change on the garden beds and see if the plants are okay - I may as well use the water for something other than wahs dirty off the driveway. If I get a python I'll prime the line with the tap water and then run the pipe out to the graden under gravity.

What are your thoughts on the tank? This is still a work in progress - The pump on right is to aid in oxygen exhange by breaking water surface. An oversight on my part as everything was intended to be hidden. The next tank will have a trickling inflow which will hopefully create a turbulence that will so alleviate the need for airpumps or filters (that create noise) in front of the background.

Also I want to get a good bed of algae on the rocks simliar to one of Kim Jakobsens tanks from website above. This algae covering will give the real and fake rock a more cohesive and natural appearance. Currently there is a brown/ slightly green style "algae". This algae covering is the start of a good aufwuchs bed I assume? but with aufwuchs how do you get the fauna generate?
What the best way to get nice grean bed of growth on rocks? I'm possibly fighting an uphill battle whilst I have the pleco in the tank.

The discussions complete swung away from species list available but is good as I'm learning from my learned forumites.

Thanks again for your comments.

Keg75

p.s what are your thoughts on this stocking level? 



 ?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Keg, depending on the species of mbuna, the typical territory they will hold in the wild ranges from 1 meter to 3 meter cubed. That is for one male....

You can artificially adjust that in an aquarium, but there is only so far you can go.


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## keg75 (Feb 6, 2006)

thanks fogelhund for your comments....

The confusion I (and I am sure other people) have regarding stocking is caused by inconsistencies in approach to stocking levels. I guess the rules in place aren't hard and fast and people have their own opinion of what works well and what doesn't. I do understand what people are trying to acheive with balancing fish stocks and ratios but I guess it comes down to trial and error in the end. Could this "trial and error" be what happening in the 75gal tank because you write on the description for it "With the high levels of stocking, there really hasn't been much sustained aggression, and so far no injuries" .

I have just looked at your tanks and noticed that you have what appears to be a decent stocking level in your (34 fish including the cats (which you can exclude for territory purposes)) on the 75 gal http://www.cichlid-forum.com/tanks/displaytank.php?tank=16329&group=owner. That amount of fish doesn't align itself with the cookie cutter for a 75gal tank, which as best i can make out is approx 20 adult fish or upto 30 juveniles.

Is the stocking level in this particular tank to acheive a certain ratio of species. Is it becase they have bred (but presence of cats would suggest fry wouldn't survive to maturity)?

Your suggestion that the territory is 1-3cubic metres but can be adjusted in a tank artificially. This would inficate that we should only keep possibly 1 male and a harem...but it appears in practice, people push the limits it seems, I guess people have a nice setup but want that lovely fish they see at the LFS so the try and shoe horn in another species... 

Thanks again for your comments. The questions I have put forward are to prompt a debate which will hopefully help others to gain a full understanding of what we as aquarists are trying to acheive. I'm just trying to get a full understand of the philosophy and thinking behind why we do certain thing in our aquariums.

BTW I do like the setup of the 75 gal. the rocks and background make it look fairly authentic biotope. What are blast rocks - are they from a quarry because the look like they're from a river?

Cheers

keg75

p.s. Your website in your profile doesn't work and when you look at pleco.net gallery - I'm not authorised do you need to unlock the gallery are is it for your own purposes?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I tried the ledge idea in my first tank too, it did not work for male territories, although the females liked the ledges (which didn't solve the problem). What has worked for me is to think of male territories like cubicles...substrate for bottom and rock piles for walls. The males are better when there are rocks blocking their line of sight to the next male and a solid boundary to defend. Here is left half of my tank floorplan:









72 x 18 is a great size, I would not go any bigger, I agree with your Mrs. I don't like deep tanks and the mbuna don't need the height. My tank traveled into the house on end on a hand cart (like you'd use to move a refrigerator)...the corners were not a problem.

I have all filters and equip behind my background and see no need for pumps or trickling inflow. The filter return provides the surface disruption.

I don't think you can duplicate aufwuchs (especially the fauna) at home, sounds like you already have the "standard" algae and the mbuna prefer NLS anyway, LOL.

That you tube stock list was similar to mine if you eliminate the Melanochromis (because it's a single) and the peacocks (bad mix with mbuna) and have only one type of zebra in the tank (which I would do). Five species, 6 individuals in each group (except 20 for the Dems to spread aggression). And I have 11 Synodontis plus a Bristlenose.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

> I have a 36" x 14" x 26" (LxDxH) tank


Is the LFS display tank bigger than this?

You don't have the space to overstock. And, you'd be surprised how much difference that extra foot in length makes with the 55G tank...There is no comparison to the fish!

You have way too many species and the male / female ratios aren't the best on most of them.

The acei will outgrow the tank.

The only two species (and that's the max number of species I would put in this tank size) that might work long term are the afra Cobue and Yellow labs. The rest are either too aggressive as fully mature adults or will grow too large and need more space.

15 fish isn't unreasonable for this size tank, it's the species you've chosen to make up those 15 fish. :wink:


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## keg75 (Feb 6, 2006)

DJRansome said:


> I tried the ledge idea in my first tank too, it did not work for male territories, although the females liked the ledges (which didn't solve the problem). What has worked for me is to think of male territories like cubicles...substrate for bottom and rock piles for walls. The males are better when there are rocks blocking their line of sight to the next male and a solid boundary to defend. Here is left half of my tank floorplan:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I get what your saying about the cubicles. Won't that promote "prairie dogging" LOL. the creatin of disctinct zone that block line of sight is tricky whilst at the same time looking natural. I guess the painting of the tank ends helps this territory, as they tend not to get "spooked" whilst in the end territories.

Do you have any photos of your tank that you can post?



DJRansome said:


> 72 x 18 is a great size, I would not go any bigger, I agree with your Mrs. I don't like deep tanks and the mbuna don't need the height. My tank traveled into the house on end on a hand cart (like you'd use to move a refrigerator)...the corners were not a problem.


It is a nice size but I'd like to get maximum amount of volume for the space. I think my tank dimensions will be 78" x 20" x 30" which will look awesome along the entry wall. I am already thinking about the structure of the background and how I can create segeregated zones for the fish. I'm going to do a background similar to what I did on the 3' (see pic in previous post) but I would like the ability to remove it for cleaning and to shift it around at my leisure to mix things up a bit. I'll make improvements in the inlet and outlets to aid in water turbulence at the surface with need for additional apparatus.



DJRansome said:


> I have all filters and equip behind my background and see no need for pumps or trickling inflow. The filter return provides the surface disruption.


My 3' BG has the outflow on the left side with 3 vents which are formed out of the horizontal lines between the rocks (above the wood) the heater and two outlet pipes sit behind for full height of the tank. i will change the design so i have vent at the sand lvel only which will be easier to clean. The inlet I made has a horizontal spray bar which fill the space around the pipe the space has vents going down into the tank (there is a vent at each end of the acei and 2 more to the right. I didn't push water up to the surface to create a turbulence. Over time a scum layer forms (not good) , which caused me to add the pump in front of my background to create a turbulence. the new tank i'll pus the water up and over a ledge to create a "spillway" this should help eliminate the scum forming and cause oxygen exchange. Hopefully I get the design spot on as i'd hate to intoruce a "trickling sound"



DJRansome said:


> I don't think you can duplicate aufwuchs (especially the fauna) at home, sounds like you already have the "standard" algae and the mbuna prefer NLS anyway, LOL. .


I didn't think you could - NLS is that new life spectrum? is that your recommnedation for food. I use Sera Granugreen, Granured and Catfish Chips. I have another post regarding food see here http://cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=146945&highlight=



DJRansome said:


> That you tube stock list was similar to mine if you eliminate the Melanochromis (because it's a single) and the peacocks (bad mix with mbuna) and have only one type of zebra in the tank (which I would do). Five species, 6 individuals in each group (except 20 for the Dems to spread aggression). And I have 11 Synodontis plus a Bristlenose.


There are some quite a spectacular tanks on youtube (along with the web for pics), which is good for inspiration.

The intention with any of my tanks is to have seperation of mbuna, haps and peacocks to alleivate any stress. I was actually concerned about adding the pleco as I didn't think they would handle the conditions. he seems to be doing fine (added at 2" now 7-8" - he's neeed to move !! )

It astounds me how some people go to a LFS and pick 20 fish at once on looks alone and then add em all together in one tank, noobs. Do the resarch then buy the fish...(I didn't get it quite right myself in the past, but i'm not as bad as some 



cichlidaholic said:


> Is the LFS display tank bigger than this?


I haven't seen it in a long time, it may be a 48" x 24" x 18". it appeared to have about 100-200 fish in it and non were for sale, all looked in good condition - that tank was from http://www.morleyaquariums.com.au/ but it doesn't appear they have a gallery yet.



cichlidaholic said:


> You don't have the space to overstock. And, you'd be surprised how much difference that extra foot in length makes with the 55G tank...There is no comparison to the fish!


Yeah well it's like you guys mention it about length for territory creation. Who cares what the fishies think  jokes :wink: !!



cichlidaholic said:


> You have way too many species and the male / female ratios aren't the best on most of them.


yep, which is why I'll now expedite the new tanks design and purchase, and get dynamite for my carpenter.



cichlidaholic said:


> The acei will outgrow the tank.


If he's max size now what do you mean by outgrow? if you have a fish which is 5" what should your minimum width be, 2.5 times length or something like that?



cichlidaholic said:


> The only two species (and that's the max number of species I would put in this tank size) that might work long term are the afra Cobue and Yellow labs. The rest are either too aggressive as fully mature adults or will grow too large and need more space.
> 
> 15 fish isn't unreasonable for this size tank, it's the species you've chosen to make up those 15 fish.


I was thinking after this discussion started about just have about 12-15 cobue in the tank as that would look awesome. about 2/3 of my fish are small or still maturing so i have a couple of months to get my tank ordered. as a relief I can put a couple of fish in my isolation tank (26"12"12") with the maingano.

For the 78"x20"x30" What stocking level would you have for what I currently own. If there is opportunity for 1 or 2 more species to be added would it be better to add labeo, a psuedo or a tropheus. I think I have 5 types remaining to choose from without risk of crossbreeding occuring. Aggression level should be peacefull to midly aggressive/aggressive. no higher.

Just had a thought If I get the big tank 78x20x30 up n running would the prof 3 - 2080 be suitable by itself or would I need additional filtration?

Anyway thanks again and I hope I haven't bored you too much with yet another epic response.

keg75


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Unfortunately, most mbuna will appreciate the length of the tank over any other dimension.

LFS tanks are in a different category than our home tanks. They aren't put together to work long term, in most cases. Very few show tanks are labeled "No sale". Fish come and fish go, and employees remove poor beaten bodies before the store opens in the a.m.. :wink:

For instance, I currently have a very overstocked 55G, with the floor space divided into three seperate "territories". The left hand side of the tank is "ruled" by a large wild male Cynotilapia White top. The center of the tank is overseen by a large male Msobo, and the right hand side belongs to a young male White top (son of the big guy) who is just starting to come into his own. This is a 4 foot tank, and I'm not counting on it working long term with 3 males thinking they are in charge. Once the younger one takes on his daddy, I'll have to pull one of them. But, I'm fortunate in that I have a place to put them when I pull them! :thumb:

When it blows up, it blows up fast, and that is something to always keep in mind. If you have multiple tanks and can pull a fish really fast, you can experiment more. But, we still can't expect these fish to adapt to whatever situation we put them in.

I've had acei reach 7 inches...  The smallest females were bigger than 5 inches. Try having 4 or 5 of those doing their schooling thing at the front of a 3 foot tank and it's going to be total chaos for the other fish, plus it will increase the acei aggression out of frustration alone.

Be careful moving fish into the smaller tank with the maingano.

No Tropheus in an mbuna tank! They have different dietary needs, different water needs, and different everything...The longer tank would make a wonderful Tropheus tank, but they are very limited as to what can be housed with them.


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## copasetic (Nov 26, 2007)

Yes the python wastes water down the drain to create a suction. But you can turn the faucet off once the flow is going by its self. And yes they fill from the faucet. A Simple turn on your faucet adaptor. Oppss i didnt see page 2.. Already answered sorry!


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## keg75 (Feb 6, 2006)

cichlidaholic said:


> Unfortunately, most mbuna will appreciate the length of the tank over any other dimension.
> 
> LFS tanks are in a different category than our home tanks. They aren't put together to work long term, in most cases. Very few show tanks are labeled "No sale". Fish come and fish go, and employees remove poor beaten bodies before the store opens in the a.m.. :wink:


Dodgy buggers... 



cichlidaholic said:


> For instance, I currently have a very overstocked 55G, with the floor space divided into three seperate "territories". The left hand side of the tank is "ruled" by a large wild male Cynotilapia White top. The center of the tank is overseen by a large male Msobo, and the right hand side belongs to a young male White top (son of the big guy) who is just starting to come into his own. This is a 4 foot tank, and I'm not counting on it working long term with 3 males thinking they are in charge. Once the younger one takes on his daddy, I'll have to pull one of them. But, I'm fortunate in that I have a place to put them when I pull them! :thumb:
> 
> When it blows up, it blows up fast, and that is something to always keep in mind. If you have multiple tanks and can pull a fish really fast, you can experiment more. But, we still can't expect these fish to adapt to whatever situation we put them in.


I've had that happen when my first maingano juveniles matured. The the two males (juveniles) killed their dad and then tried it on with their mum to the point she had no tail from the nipping, I debated euthanisia, but her injury healed. The damage must have been more than what could be seen on her skin as she had limited movement from her mid section back to her stump. She sucumbed due to an aggression from the large acei (I suspected that it was due to her erratic swimming action from the injury at the time). With regards the juvenilles - once dad was out the way they started on each other hence them being separated as they currently are.

I have 3 tanks presently an old 48x14x18 (tetra), the 36x14x26 (mbuna) and the 26x10x12 (isolation for mbuna) so it's tricky to move anything around. The intention is the 48 goes, the mbuna go from the 36 to the new large tank. The 36 was to become a hap or cock tank but I do like the idea of one species ie cyno afra "cobue" or something else smallish. The 26 will be an intro tank or possibly I'll use at work or something.



cichlidaholic said:


> I've had acei reach 7 inches...  The smallest females were bigger than 5 inches. Try having 4 or 5 of those doing their schooling thing at the front of a 3 foot tank and it's going to be total chaos for the other fish, plus it will increase the acei aggression out of frustration alone.
> 
> Be careful moving fish into the smaller tank with the maingano.


The acei may be 6+ inch. It's hard to measure him unless I net him and I don't really want to do that for this site. He's pretty big.

If I put anything in with maingano I'll try and add mutliple fish at once. He did have some friends in there for a while, I got 2 yellows (inch long) and a small maingano (inch long) and they kept getting trapped in between the Silicone which fixes the background (i had gaps just big enough for the idiots to jam themselves in) I was sick of rescuing the morons so I transferred them to the 26" to grow out enought to not get trapped. The maingano was okay with them but they were only small and could get out his way easily.



cichlidaholic said:


> No Tropheus in an mbuna tank! They have different dietary needs, different water needs, and different everything...The longer tank would make a wonderful Tropheus tank, but they are very limited as to what can be housed with them.


In the profiles under Malawi Mbuna there are Tropheops sp. "name", that is what I meant to say. The tropheus are tanganika fish aren't they. A side note I remember fishing in Tanganika when I was a kid, we were in Zambia for 10 years - the most vivid memory I have of fishing is seeing the guts of the fish pop out there mouths 'cause we had brought them up off the bottom - not nice to see  which is why now i'll only catch and release.

The list of remaining species I could chose from (which I had worked out prior to starting this post) was

Gephyrochromis
Iodotropheus
Labeotropheus
Petrotilapia
Tropheops

from your comments some psuedotropheus are available aswell.

In the large tank what are your suggestions for fish stocking and could I add 1 or 2 different species or not?

With the current species list what number and ratio would you add to the large tank?

Cynotilapia Afra (Cobue) 
Labidochromis Caerulus (Electric Yellow) 
Melanochromis Cyaneorhabdos (Maingano) 
Metriclima Estherae (Red Zebra) 
Pseudotropheus SP Acei (Msuli Pt)

ta keg75

p.s. copasetic thanks for your comments. Anyone know how to do a DIY Python?


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## copasetic (Nov 26, 2007)

Python sells just the valve needed at the sink. Then its simply garden hose fittings and a gravel sucking attachment. Oh and a shut off valve.


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## chapman76 (Jun 30, 2004)

I don't feel safe using a garden hose. Some people might, but I think long term it will harm the fish because of the VOC's in most garden hoses. I use water safe tubing intended for RV's. I found mine at Menards. Not sure what you have in Oz.


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## keg75 (Feb 6, 2006)

I have used garden hoses for a while and have seen no adverse affects. but i find that the dirt you drag into the house with them and havingto wipe them clean is annoying. I have been using a large steel pot (stewing pan) to do water refills, I think I get about 10-12 litres every trip back and forth to the sink. better thing anout using internal taps (faucets) as opposed to outside taps is temperature control.

I found a DIY python in the DIY section of this site. so may attemp that at some point after i get my tanks up n running.

As for the fishies in my tank. does anyone have any thoughts about my last queries regarding the setup for the new tank, ie stocking level and ratios.

The conversation just seemed to stop dead after my last post, is there nothing more to be said or you getting sick of me asking :?

keg75


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Is 78 x 20 the final size? *I'd start with five* species like you have on your list. Your footprint is 2" wider and 4" longer than a standard 125G, so not going to buy a huge amount of additional territories.

I'd switch two of five species. I'd do Demasoni instead of Maingano, just personal preference since I prefer the vertical bars to the horizontal stripes. And I'd switch the Cobue since I'd worry they would not color up with those tankmates. I'd substitute Cynotilapia sp. hara (a.k.a. white tops) because they are awesome with the Demasoni.

After about a year of seeing how everyone settles in, breeds and aggression works out, I might consider adding a species or two...maybe after a year if you want more fish add the Maingano or Albino Socolofi, etc. I would not exceed 7 species no matter what. I did find that 5 fills up my tank of about the same footprint more than enough.


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## copasetic (Nov 26, 2007)

on my local fish club site. someone had a great idea for adding a in line declorinator to your python.


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