# sump set up with out an over flow??



## newguyinillinois (May 1, 2011)

Ok. So I got a120 gallon tank,and I am thinking about building an sump setup to relace the canister filter. Only problem is my tank isnt drilled and on top of that, I dont like over flows. I dont want that in my tank. 
So heres my idea. I have all of my filter stuff in my basement. The filter hoses run behind the tank in my living room and through a a/c duct into the basement. I have a 90 gallon garbage can that I am going to use as my sump. Ill use the strainer and intake line from my canister filter just like they are used normally to siphon water out of the tank.My only modifcation will be to drill a small 1/8 inch hole in the strainer pipe just below where I want the minimum water line to be in the tank in case of a power outage. It will drain into an 5 gallon bucket drilled full of holes and filled with filter media.It will rest in a hole cut in the lid of the garbage can. In the bottom of the garbage can/ sump Ill dump a couple bags of lava rock in the bottom to give the nitrifyiing bacteria a place to hang out. On top of the lava Ill put a flat piece of slate to which ill attach a submersible pump. The pump will be plumbed with a check valve. The check valve will prevent water from siphoning back out in the event of an power outage, and will keep the return line primed. Just above the check valve, ill mount a float switch to turn the pump off and on. This will ensure that the pump never runs dry or that the bio media runs dry. Ill also keep my heater and bubbler below the float valve. So that will leave me with like fifty gallons of water to play with in order to find a sweet spot to make the system function. All I have to do is put a valve in the intake line to control the flow of water into the sump so that it is just a little bit less than the pump pumps out. Then just adjust the float valve height so the pump runs as much as possible without over flowing the tank.adjust the amount of water til it all functions.

CAN ANYONE SEE ANY REASON THAT THIS WOULDNT WORK??? ANY INPUT WOULD BE APPRICIATED.


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## garryism (Sep 4, 2011)

sounds good... but a few things to consider:

1 - will your pump have enough head to pump back to the tank in a quick enough flow to avoid having the sump overflow with the amount of water coming in through the intake of the canister?

2 - you will have to increase the temperature of your heater in the sump to compensate for the heat loss caused by the distance that the water has to travel before returning to the tank.

3 - you may have to drill more than one hole in your strainer intake just in case the first hole gets blocked... or you'll definitely get an overflow on the return.

that's all i could think of at the moment... hope this helps!


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## CITADELGRAD87 (Mar 26, 2003)

I can be made to work.

Caution areas from building my own sump:

The head height will have to be carefully matched with a pump that is capable of keeping up with whatever amount your strainer setup can draw. If it strains faster than the pump, the sump WILL overflow, it may take a LONG time, but it will happen.

Conversely, if the pump is pumping faster than the strainer can draw, the overflow will happen, but this time in the upstairs room.

My guess is you are going to have to buy too much pump and carefully use a ball valve to dial back the pump's output so that it does not overtake the strainer. Best bet here would be to use a T fitting, and instead of choking the pump, divert some flow back into the sump, put a filter sock on it and polish the water while you are at it.

You need to keep a close eye on the water level in the sump, I do not know if pump performance degrades over time, but it it does, you will get an imbalance. Nothing unexpected, just know what you are getting into.

Only other strange thing that may pop up is the effect of the air in that duct on the water in the pipe, it's going to get cooled or heated both ways on that trip, depending on the season. Not sure how much?


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## newguyinillinois (May 1, 2011)

It will never overflow. The float swich turns off the pump before the aquarium can over flow, and the hole in the strainer pipe sucks air and the flow stops if the power goes out. I keep reading these threads about diy filters and people trying to make them absolutely fool proof. I challenge you to find one filter on the market that is fool proof. Any canister filter on the market can spring a leak in the canister or a line and when it does the water will drain out of the tank down to the strainer dumping water all over. Yes things can go wrong. But what are the odds of a safety hole becoming completely clogged or a check valve not working?


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## CITADELGRAD87 (Mar 26, 2003)

I am pulling for you, not against you. I led with this can be made to work.

An issue, though, is going to happen when the float valve trips, turing off the pump, and the strainer keeps drawing.

If that relationship is not finely tuned, the siphon will break to arrest the strainer, which would be a pain. To avoid this, the relationship between the float switch and the tank water level needs to be carefully coordinated.

You will also have to take care to always fill with the same amount of water, but that's a simple thing to mark once you have it dialed in.

Again, I think you are getting support and good advice here. I made my own sump, I don't think it's me-proof. I did try to think of everyhting before I started, and I am still discoveing things.

It's important, however, to be aware of all posibilities and variables so you can plan a system that should work the way you want it to.


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

The biggest flaw in your plan is the anti siphon hole in the intake. Consider the scenario where you lose power, and the tank drains until the anti siphon hole works, and then the siphon is lost. Now, power comes back on, the pump starts again and the tank fills. How will the siphon start again?

This is where an overflow comes into play - they are designed to keep the siphon. Not sure what your experience is with overflows and why you are opposed to them, but I've been using a Marineland SOS overflow on a non drilled tank for close to 10 years with no major issues. It takes up no more space than a typical HOB filter. I'd greatly prefer an internal overflow, but it beats the risk of drilling the tank.

The other thoughts I have is that you are putting a lot of trust and faith into a lot of potential failure points. Check valves, float switches etc. can all fail with no notice, and then you have an issue.

It is not clear whether your intention is to try to build a better mousetrap, or to save money and do something on the cheap, or something else. If it is to build a better mousetrap, spend the money on multiples for the things that can fail. Ie, put a second float switch above the first one so that if the first one fails, the second one will save you. This is sort of the same logic used on well equipped fishing boats and bilge pumps. When the S hits the fan, you want to be sure all your systems are covered in duplicate.

I am not trying to dissuade you - I love the idea of keeping the filter stuff and other equipment out of the tank as much as possible.

cheers


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## iwade4fish (Jan 5, 2009)

The idea being, water in = water out. Piece of plastic grate in front of holes, been working great for two years.
No overflow, no siphons, no headaches.
Nice and easy, mac-n-cheesy!!


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

iwade4fish said:


> The idea being, water in = water out. Piece of plastic grate in front of holes, been working great for two years.
> No overflow, no siphons, no headaches.
> Nice and easy, mac-n-cheesy!!


oh yeah, totally, but that is a drilled tank. the OP's tank is not drilled.


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## The King Crabb (Jun 28, 2011)

Nodima brings up a lot of good points. I wholeheartedly agree with buying two of anything that can potentially fail except for the pump, I recommend just buying the one.

A thought for restarting the siphon, what if you attached a small pump (100GPH ish) to the siphon inside of the sump so that it gets the siphon going and once it's running the power of the siphon gravity should push the pump even faster, right? Just spit balling here, never tried it.


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## iwade4fish (Jan 5, 2009)

Word.


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## livingroomdiver (Oct 10, 2011)

I guess I don't understand the aversion to drilling. This makes for a lot of extra equipment, cost and failure risk. I have mine drilled, and other than clogs and plumbing failures, my overflow risk is very low. The only thing visible in my tank is a 1" elbow at one end and a 1/2" at the other. Very clean. Very balanced, no problems with restarts. Easy squeezy.


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

The below problem could be solved with a powerhead placed pointing towards the siphon, this would reprime it if the overflow failed. This would though increase flow through the siphon when it is working .. but you could adjust for that.

I believe though he already said the pump would cut out if the water level got too high in the tank. But thought I would suggest a method to reprime the siphon, just like we prime our siphons when we clean the tank by putting it into a powerhead or filter.



nodima said:


> The biggest flaw in your plan is the anti siphon hole in the intake. Consider the scenario where you lose power, and the tank drains until the anti siphon hole works, and then the siphon is lost. Now, power comes back on, the pump starts again and the tank fills. How will the siphon start again?
> 
> This is where an overflow comes into play - they are designed to keep the siphon. Not sure what your experience is with overflows and why you are opposed to them, but I've been using a Marineland SOS overflow on a non drilled tank for close to 10 years with no major issues. It takes up no more space than a typical HOB filter. I'd greatly prefer an internal overflow, but it beats the risk of drilling the tank.
> 
> ...


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