# When using a python-type system...



## heyteacher (Jul 12, 2010)

...how do you go about prepping the new water? Do you add to the tank (before re-filling) the amount of Aqua Safe you need for the total # of gallons you will be replacing? :-?


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## Dj823cichild (Mar 30, 2009)

Either or in my opinion will be fine. As long as you add it you can't lose.


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

If you don't have chloramines (tap tests 0 for ammonia) you can add the total tank amount of water conditioner to the tank (so in a 75 gallon tank you add enough to treat 75 gallons) before you fill, then just fill 'er up! If you have chloramines, sometimes it takes awhile for the bond to break and though not always the case, in some situations it can stress the fish or damage the biological filter. You could always "test" it, but the safe way to do it would be to buy a new plastic trash can, treat the water in it, then pump it out with a powerhead or other pump.

-John

Also I don't know what water conditioner you are using (I think you said aquasafe?) Consider API Tap Water dechlorinator next time, it's super concentrated so it is THE cheapest, hands down, AND it detoxifies chloramine and heavy metals. I'm a heavy proponent of the stuff because people spend way too much on water conditioners that, in a cycled healthy tank, are unnecessary.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I like using a reserve water tank so that I can treat as well as get the water to the correct temperature before adding. It is not a big factor usually to add it either way. I have found using trashcans for reserve supplies is a good way to soak carpeting, though. They are not made for that and often develop stress points which leak. Plastic barrels are a much safer alternate for the plastic cans. Stick a plastic trashcan over your head on a bright day and you can see the weak points where the light shines through.


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## Rialb30 (Feb 25, 2010)

Where do you find the plastic barrels?


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

Go to wal-mart to a hardware store (Wal-Mart if your a communo-terrorist who doesn't support the working man... haha kidding), and just get a big plastic trash can, rubbermaid makes them for peanuts, 38 gallon, 55 gallon, all sorts of sizes.

-John


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I prefer the plastic barrels as they are designed to hold liquids which the Rubbermade type items are not. I find that most will leak at some point, either now or later. For plastic barrels, I shop Craig'slist and such. Local shopping papers sometimes have them. They are often listed as food grade barrels but some are for chemicals that you need to decide if they are right for your use. If that doesn't produce results, there is always the farm saupply type items. There are heavy duty plastic water tanks for cattle but they seem rather overkill for my use. Spray equipment uses plastic in different shapes as well. I like the cheap used food grade barrels for my space and use. Often in the $15-20 ramge.


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## tokyo (Jan 19, 2010)

PfunMo said:


> I prefer the plastic barrels as they are designed to hold liquids which the Rubbermade type items are not.


+1 :thumb:

I use a 30g compost bin/barrel as a sump for my 55g. I bought it at the local agway(farm & garden supply) for $15. I have also found cheap food grade barrels on craigslist. They are just as cheap as the trashcans, it just takes a little more effort to find them and go pick them up.

I'm going to be converting my rubbermaids, that I had originally bought for water conditioning, into redworm cultures. Home grown fish food :thumb: (not for mbuna though)


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

What I think we get into is the greater pressure and how long the pressure is maintained. While the trashcan is designed for paper and can hold a pretty good weight of junk, it is not nearly as much pressure as filling it with water and leaving it there for extended periods. In the round barrels, the pressure presses out in all directions but in the flat sided plastic the sides bow out and this creates stress that the plastic is not thick enough to stand for long. Both work but over time the one designed for liquids lasts better.


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

pfunmo,

Sorry! I didn't read your post well enough, and I see what you mean. I personally haven't had any bad luck using some of the rubbermaid heavy duty ones, but I can understand where you are coming from!

-John


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

No problem, John. I was a great fan of the plastic trash cans until a couple split and I started looking for the reason. I really was surprised that I never found one that would pass the test once I started putting them over my head to look for bright spots. I got around to asking myself how they could all be such bummer quality and finally it hit me that they were made only as good as needed for trash and that takes a whole lot less than water. I'm a Ballwin, Mo. reject myself. Wish I were a bit closer to visit some of the shops in your area.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

heyteacher said:


> ...how do you go about prepping the new water? Do you add to the tank (before re-filling) the amount of Aqua Safe you need for the total # of gallons you will be replacing? :-?


Adding directly to the tank is perfectly safe. This stuff works quickly. When adding to the tank, add enough to handle the entire tank volume. This is the advice that Seachem gives regarding their product 'Prime', and AquaSafe will be similar.


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

prov356 said:


> Adding directly to the tank is perfectly safe. This stuff works quickly.


My tap water has Chloramines and I use Prime. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve found it doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t act fast enough if I dose or double dose and then add water straight from the tap. If youÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re just dealing with chlorine, you should be fine though.


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## tokyo (Jan 19, 2010)

jrf said:


> prov356 said:
> 
> 
> > Adding directly to the tank is perfectly safe. This stuff works quickly.
> ...


How have you determined this? I'm not trying argue, as I have always treated my water separately so have no experience with adding it directly to the tank. I'm just curious how you determined that it wasn't acting fast enough, and fast enough for what?


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

tokyo said:


> How have you determined this?


Determined by my fish flashing and darting around in the tank as it was filling. Which is not the case when I pre-treat the water in a tub first.



tokyo said:


> fast enough for what?


Fast enough to break apart the chlorine + ammonia bond and then bind to both the ammonia and the chlorine.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Determined by my fish flashing and darting around in the tank as it was filling. Which is not the case when I pre-treat the water in a tub first.


Interesting observation. I wonder if you could post this experience up on Seachem's site and see what they have to say. Of course, they could always argue that it's something else affecting them, not the chloramine, but it'd be interesting to see what they suggest it might be. If this is truly the case and is common to a lot of keepers, it'd be good to know. Experience trumps anything coming from people selling products. Anybody else experience this?


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

Here's what I submitted to Seachem:



> My city water is treated with chloramines and IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve noticed that my fish donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t react well when I dose my tank with Prime and then try to fill straight from the tap. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve tried dosing for the entire volume of the tank and double dosing for the entire volume. Regardless, while the tank is filling, IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve observed my fish flashing and darting around in the tank. However, when I use a tub and a powerhead to first mix the water and Prime I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t have these issues. Does it take longer for Prime to process Chloramines, and is it possible that this is the reason for my observations?


I'll post the response when I receive it. The only other factor I can think of is water temperature. I use a heater in my mix tub while going by feel when filling straight from the tap. So, I know the water temp from the tub is much closer to the tank temp. However, I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t think IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m that far off when going by feel, and even if I am I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t think it would result in flashing.


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

Seachem was quick to respond:



> _Thanks for the email with regard to this. Prime should react with chloramines instantaneously, however, keep in mind that the chemical needs to come into contact with the new water. Depending on how well the water is being circulated will determine how quickly this happens. If you are able to treat the water first, this may be the better option for your fish. Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance._


It seems itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s an issue of circulation and not the speed of the chemical reactions. I can accept this. My water changes typically go down below the filter intakes. Consequently, I turn off the filters and end up with little to no circulation until the filters come back on Ã¢â‚¬â€œ and they donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t come back on until IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve added enough water for the filters to self prime when I plug them back in.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Interesting. Then the best thing if adding directly to tank might be to keep some type of powerhead, etc running to ensure good circulation while filling. I did a somewhat related test one time, but using chlorine. I added a boatload of chlorine to a tub of water, then added a bunch of dechlor. It did work instantly once I stirred the water a bit. So, makes sense what you're seeing. The flashing and darting are almost certainly due to a toxin, not temp. Good to know. I've modified my position on this, thanks.

Regarding Seachem's response to me, you can see how it changed a bit when presented with your experience.

_



There is no danger of any harm to either your fish or biofilter when adding Prime directly to the tank. Prime works immediately to remove chloramines from tap water, therefore, this would take care of itself once the new water was added. One point that I would like to make, however, is that if you add Prime directly to the tank, then you will need to dose it for the entire volume of tank water; conversely, when dosing Prime to the replacement water only, you will only need to dose it for the amount of new water being added. Therefore, doing this will save on product in the long run. We hope this information helps, but please let us know

Click to expand...

_


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Maybe there is a small way to get around the question and still make water changing easy. I find I get far less reaction from my fish by doing smaller water changes more often. I think of keeping the tank stable as one of the prime objectives to maintain. Even if we could keep the temperature and chemicals near the same as the tank, I feel the large changes are more likely to bother the fish. Lots of things in their world that we can't always measure, I'm afraid.


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

prov356 said:


> Then the best thing if adding directly to tank might be to keep some type of powerhead, etc running to ensure good circulation while filling.


Yeah, itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s good to know that I can toss in a powerhead and fill straight from the faucet if I need to. At this point, my mixing tub is no more effort than using the faucet. It has a heater, a powerhead, and a Mag 5 water pump with enough hose to reach every tank in the house. A single powerhead would have been a lot cheeper than my current setup. :lol:


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Lots of options, I guesss, and that's good.

Regarding keeping water changes small, that's another option for those affected by this. Lucky me, we still have only chlorine here, so I can pretty much change out what I want and dechlor is sort of an afterthought. Not sure it's even needed, but I use it when filling directly instead of prepping in a holding tank. Point is, all source water is different and everyone needs to adopt a plan that works for them and their fish. It's hard to generalize when it comes to water changes, methods, and amounts, although there are often posts here looking for that magic number.


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## heyteacher (Jul 12, 2010)

Wow! I had no idea my question would expand to such discussion and questioning! That's fantastic!
In the process I have learned that since my ammonia level is at 0 coming out of the tap, I can refill the tank directly from the faucet as long as I get the temp adjusted (using a thermometer) before I start filling.

Thanks everyone! We can learn so much from each other! =D>


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