# Need help, sick fish!!



## edouthirt (Jan 22, 2008)

Hi there,

This is my first time dealing with a disease outbreak in my tank and I'm stressing a bit and am looking for some advice.

First, I had a female red zebra that on day 1 just had a couple of damaged scales and nipped fins from a relentless male (that I have since removed) and then on day 2 she looked completely awful and could barely swim. It was obvious to me it was disease but I have no idea what it is... I'm just assuming a bacterial infection that resembled fin rot as well as a ton of scale damage. I started dosing with melafix, but she didn't last through day 3. Also on day 3 I noticed one of my acei was palish in color and one of her pectoral fins had a big gash in it and she wasn't moving much and just hangoing out in the bottom corner of the tank. Additionally, I noticed one of my male yellow labs now looks horrible (similar to the way the original female red zebra looked except he also had a pimpleish looking growth right by his mouth). All of the other fish look completely fine and healthy.

I have not stopped dosing with melafix. And plan to do a water change tonight before giving another dose to try to keep water parameters as optimal as possible.

Current stocking list: 3 red zebras, 6 yellow labs, 6 acei, 2 female kenyi, 1 Cyno afra (male)

60 gallon tank: 48in X 15in

Water parameters: I wanted to test everything before I left for work today, but I was running late so I didn't have a chance. I do know that pH is at 8 and kH is around 200 ppm. I do keep up with weekly 35 - 50% water changes to keep nitrate below 40 ppm and always dose with prime. I'm assuming that my biofilter is still intact as I have done nothing to it and therefore ammonia and nitrite should be at 0. Temp: 80 degrees.

A couple other notes: I recently changed the rockwork when I had to pull the dead red zebra out from behind the rocks... I figured, "Hey, while I'm getting my hands wet..." and it made it a whole lot easier to remove the uber aggressive red zebra. Not sure how pertinent that is to anything, but I'm sure it stressed the fish.

Also, for the first time I added a buffer recipe (Kent Cichlid buffer) because I was starting to notice pH fluctuations. I followed the directions on the container precisely.

I do not have a hospital tank to use. The best I could do is set up a rubbermaid tub with an airstone or something.

My main questions are:

What do you suggest to remedy the problem? More medication on top of the melafix?

Is this something that is going to just keep spreading through the whole tank?

I know that I just gave you a lot to work with, but I have seen how many times somebody posts a "disease" question on this forum and you guys tend to do best when you have as much information as you can.

Thanks a bundle!

Eric


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Thanks for all the info, Eric. I can't tell you how much it helps to get everything up front!

Because you were so thorough, I don't have alot of questions! 

Did you stir up the substrate alot when you moved the rock? Do you clean your substrate regularly? (Check those water parameters when you get home tonight, just to make sure you don't have anything weird going on, but with your tank maintenance, I doubt this is the problem.)

On the fish that you lost, were there any white cottony growths on them? Anything unusual at all about their behaviour? Twitching? Flashing?

The first death sounds like it may have been due to injuries from the male. In fact, they may all be related to aggression.

Am I understanding that you removed that red zebra male, or did I read that wrong? If you removed him, when did you remove him in relation to the acei and the yellow lab?

Can you post a pic of the yellow lab?

I don't think the buffer has anything to do with this. I'm really leaning towards aggression, but let's get the answers to these questions and take it from there.

Melafix is a good preventative, but it won't replace an antibiotic.

Once you get this taken care of, we probably need to look into your stocking and make some changes, if you are interested in breeding at all!


----------



## edouthirt (Jan 22, 2008)

cichlidaholic,

Let me first say that I absolutely appreciate not only the help you are giving me, but I have been reading through this forum yesterday and today trying to find information before I asked anything and you have been such a great help to so many hobbyists on this site!! Thank you so much!

Ok, now back to business. I did stir up the substrate quite a bit when I did the rockwork change. In fact I did it on purpose to release any trapped gasses that might be in the sand (it had been about 12 weeks since the last time I had done that). And now the light bulb is going off, that I really should check the parameters just to be sure.

On the one that I lost, no cottony growths... just looked really beat up... lots of scale damage and torn fins. A couple of spiderweb like red marks on body (reminded me of vericose veins sorta). Behavior prior to getting beat up was normal... after the beating no flashing, just very sluggish which progressed to not being able to swim, which progressed to death. However, I have noticed a couple of the (healthy looking) other fish have been flashing from time to time recently, but it hasn't been obsessive or anything... I attributed it maybe to the water hardness change? I read in the library that a change in hardness can cause that at times.

The two new concerning cases (lab and acei) neither are eating. The acei just sits at the bottom of the tank and get's left alone, whereas the lab is now being harrased by seemingly the entire tank (which I'm sure is only making his case worse.

I did remove the problem red zebra and took him to a LFS (made them put him in the "mixed tank" just in case, even though I'm fairly certain he is pure). I didn't notice the problem with the acei and lab until the following day, but there is a chance that they could also be victims from the bully. However, now... since I have removed the bully, male red zebra number 2 is puffing out his chest and I'm getting very frustrated and thinking about removing all the zebras, even though I love their color.

Posting a pic of the lab will be easier said than done but I will certainly try. My camera is garbage, but my girlfriend will be coming over tonight and she is a pretty good photographer. I'll ask her to bring her camera. The other problem is the lab spends almost all of his time hiding from everyone else in the tank now. SO getting him where we could snap a picture won't be the easiest thing in the world.

I'm not interested in breeding, but like I said, I'm considering gettign rid of the zebras altogether.

Thanks again.


----------



## edouthirt (Jan 22, 2008)

and yes i clean the substrate very well. every time I do a water change, i get as much detritus as I can and when I removed all the rock work I picked up every single piece, sifted the sand and went by again with the syphon.

Sorry, I missed that question the first time.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I'm wondering if you're now dealing with illness stemming from the stress from the aggression.

Anytime you have fish that aren't eating, you can count on something being wrong. With that being said, not eating is unfortunately indicative of alot of diseases.

Any white stringy feces? Bloating or emaciation??? Fin deterioration around the torn areas?

The red streaks sound like septicemia, another good indicator to check your water parameters. But, again, with your tank maintenance habits, I don't see how this could be a big enough problem to do this.

Do you have a hospital tank? If so, I would go ahead and move the two affected fish, just so you can keep a better eye on them. If the tank is small, you might need a divider.


----------



## edouthirt (Jan 22, 2008)

No white feces, bloating, or emaciation. Yes some fin deterioration on the lab, not so much on the acei.

I will definitely check the parameters when I get home and I'm doing a water change either way to keep nitrate as low as possible.

I don't have a hospital tank. I am in the process of getting supplies to set one up, but honestly don't have the money at this moment to finish that job. The best I can do is a rubbermaid tub with an airstone, which doesn't make it very easy to "keep an eye on them" as I will only have a bird's eye view". Should I do it anyway? Would this significantly help prevent this from spreading to any of the other fish.


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Honestly, it's one thing to raise fry in a rubbermaid tank or use on in case of a leak, but I think putting these fish in one right now would stress them out more than anything.

None of the other fish are showing symptoms at all?

If not, I would focus on checking the water, and use Melafix..If you can do daily water changes, do them, even if the parameters are perfection. If it's just wounds the Melafix is a good preventative for bacterial infections, but should you see any cottony or fuzzy areas around the tears, you may need to switch to antibiotics. (sulfa or erythromycin would be my choice...)

I really don't think the water is the problem here, and I'm concerned that they may be showing signs of bloat, but without more symptoms, I'm really hesitant to tell you to initiate a bloat treatment. Reclusive behaviour and not eating are both signs of bloat, but they go hand in hand with any other fish illness I can think of, and if the tank has been that stressed, it's hard to say what is going on.


----------



## edouthirt (Jan 22, 2008)

As of right now, all of the other fish seem fine and healthy. But I am going to keep a close eye on them.

I am fairly certain that at least the lab already is infected. I am debating stopping by petsmart on the way home to pick up an antibiotic and starting a dose tonight. I really hate to put all of the other fish through that, but... I'm not sure.

Ok, let's just assume that the lab is infected... if I don't start the antibiotics tonight and just keep dosing with melafix, am I putting all the other healthy fish at risk? In other words, is this contagious? Sorta like humans can catch a cold from eachother?

And another question... will antibiotics destroy my biofilter?


----------



## edouthirt (Jan 22, 2008)

Also, is there any point to dosing melafix and a true anti-biotic at the same time? Or should I stop the melafix if/when I start the antibiotic?


----------



## 55gal (Jan 19, 2009)

Every time you disturb the substrate it's good practice to check your water specs. This could prevent any problems from happening in your tank

Just an FYI
*Maracyn Two* is an antibiotic used to treat internal infections ( Gram Negitive Baceria )

*Maracyn* is an antibiotic used to treat internal bacterial infections and fungal diseases.
( Gram Positive Bacteria )

Something to keep in mind


----------



## edouthirt (Jan 22, 2008)

Thank you 55gal, I will keep that in mind. I already bought some triple Sulfa so I am going to try my luck with that.

Ok... so update...

Came home from work and tested water. It was fine. Amm: 0, Nitrite: 0, Nitrate: 20 ppm, but I did a water change anyway so the nitrate is probably around 10 ppm now.

Yellow lab looks way worse and was barely swimming, so unfortunatley I had to remove him because I was afraid that the other fish would just continue to harass him.  Here is how he looked minutes before I removed him (I was able to get my girlfriend to take the picture... thank you heather!):

He is now in a rubbermaid tub with an airstone (against cichlidaholic's suggestion, but I didn't really have a choice) and I dosed the water with melafix and sulfa. He actually is moving around quite a bit more than he was in the tank.

The acei is doing about the same but swimming a bit more than she was. I am going to keep dosing the the tank with melafix as well.

And I have decided that all the red zebras are definitely coming out. Probably on Sunday.

Any other suggestions? Diagnosis on the lab?

Thanks again!

Eric


----------



## edouthirt (Jan 22, 2008)

Sorry, here is the picture of the sick lab:


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

He looks rough...

I would continue with the antibiotics and do daily water changes prior to adding the meds.

Are you far enough down into Florida that the temps aren't fluctuating too much without a heater?


----------



## edouthirt (Jan 22, 2008)

Sad to say, he didn't make it. And I definitely needed a heater! and didn't realize it until it was too late. I have great insulation in my house, but apparently not great enough.

Now I have another problem (and man am I getting sick of these issues)... I am continuing to dose the main tank with melafix because the red zebras (which I removed all of them today as well as the two female kenyi) reeked their fair share of havoc on a lot of the fish, so I am just going through a regular 7 day dose just to be sure... plus the somewhat sick looking acei is still in the tank (which by the way she is looking a lot better).

Anyways... the point is... I removed all the rockwork (again) today so I could get the zebras and kenyi and did a partial water change while I was at it. Left the tank while it was emptying and came back to find that my F1 cyno afra male had been sucked up the python hose a couple of inches!!!!! I freaked and reversed the flow to push him back out. At first I thought I lost him, but then he came to... however pretty beat up with some scale damage. He's pretty much just keeping to himself in the rock work at the moment (which is to be expected)...

Anything else I should do for him? Will the continued dosing of melafix be enough you think? I REALLY am starting to hate losing my fish. This has been the most frustrating week so far in my fish keeping experience. But I am determined!!!

At least the kenyi and red zebras are out... so I really think I am going to have a much more peaceful tank!

And one more thing... Any real diagnosis on that lab? I just want to know so it will help me identify these things in the future.

Thanks!


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I can't give you a "real" diagnosis on the yellow lab. He just looks very, very stressed and has alot of fin deterioration. Either and both could have stemmed from the overly aggressive situation he was in...When fish are really stressed out, their immune system weakens, so this is one of the main reasons we encourage people to be careful with their stocking. It's hard to convince someone of what can truly happen until they experience it first hand, as you have.

I actually sucked an interruptus up the hose one time, but caught it fairly quickly.

I would just keep a close eye on this guy for awhile. Should he start to show signs of illness, you may need to do something other than what you're doing.

To aid your fish in healing quickly, I would do daily water changes and dose the tank with the Melafix right afterwards, especially if they are beat up and as stressed as that lab was.


----------



## edouthirt (Jan 22, 2008)

Thanks again cichlidaholic!!

The afra is looking better and better every hour it seems. He is still spending a lot of time in the rock work, but he did that before the "incident" anyway. All of his color is back, and I can really only see one area of scale damage. I'll watch the water paramenters closely and continue the melafix, but I think he is going to be fine.

Taking out the red zebras and kenyi has made a huge difference. The tank is a whole lot more peaceful now, and the fish behavior seems a lot more natural.

This has been quite the learning experience!!


----------



## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

edouthirt said:


> This has been quite the learning experience!!


And who would have thought you could actually learn something from a bunch of fish? :lol:

Just wanted to say kudos to you for acknowledging the problem areas and taking care of them! You have no idea how many people refuse to believe that aggression is the root of their problems... :thumb:


----------

