# Tropheus Red rainbow



## Jorsay (Jul 14, 2008)

I hate when they call a tropheus a 'red rainbow'. What does it mean?

I am going to stock my new 300 gallon with tangs. I want to put in 8 to 12 tropheus (probably ILangi or something like them).

*Problem:* I would like to purchase these 8 to 12 from at least 3 sources so that I don't get all brothers and sisters. How can I be certain that they are the same species and not just one of the many 'red rainbow'?

I also plan to put in 8 to 12 troph black sp. Bemba. Any thoughts?


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## IrkedCitizen (Apr 26, 2007)

What other tangs are you going to keep with the tropheus? What are the dimensions of the 300 gallon? What filtration do you have? These are all important questions that need to be addressed. Because diet of all tank mates must be achieved and high water quality must be kept.

Moving on...

What does it matter if they are brother or sister? In the lake they don't care. They breed with whomever is willing to breed with them. So going to 3 different sources adds to the issue of trying to find 3 sources with these fish. Not to mention the shipping from each source to your house/airport. Shipping fish isn't cheap.

Ilangi are also not red rainbows. There are no red rainbows close to where the Ilangi are collected in the lake. The nearest rainbow variant to them is the Lufubu purple rainbow and the Chaitika blue rainbow.

About keeping the SP. Black Bemba with the Ilangi is that there may be a high chance of hybridization. The only sure fire mix to not have a hybrid is going with a Duboisi type as long as you don't keep them with a different Duboisi type.

I would also suggest keeping more than 8-12 fish in each colony.


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## deelay (Feb 17, 2003)

Tropheus moorii "Kampwimba" aka Red Rainbow, there are also caught at Kasanga but they have less red color in the dorsalfin. Here is a pict of some in my group.


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## Jorsay (Jul 14, 2008)

IrkedCitizen said:


> What other tangs are you going to keep with the tropheus? What are the dimensions of the 300 gallon? What filtration do you have? These are all important questions that need to be addressed. Because diet of all tank mates must be achieved and high water quality must be kept.


Thanks, but I can take care of those issues.



> Moving on...
> 
> What does it matter if they are brother or sister? In the lake they don't care. They breed with whomever is willing to breed with them. So going to 3 different sources adds to the issue of trying to find 3 sources with these fish. Not to mention the shipping from each source to your house/airport. Shipping fish isn't cheap.


Most animals, including fish, do not mate with their siblings in the wild. Fish that breed with their siblings are often less healthy. By offering fish the option of NOT inbreeding, they breed faster and produce healthier offspring. As far as shipping, at this time in my life, money is not an issue. Sources do not seem to be a problem either.



> Ilangi are also not red rainbows. There are no red rainbows close to where the Ilangi are collected in the lake. The nearest rainbow variant to them is the Lufubu purple rainbow and the Chaitika blue rainbow.


Thank you. I didn't know that.



> About keeping the SP. Black Bemba with the Ilangi is that there may be a high chance of hybridization. The only sure fire mix to not have a hybrid is going with a Duboisi type as long as you don't keep them with a different Duboisi type.


I have read quite a bit about hybridization among tropheus, and I do not believe that it will be an issue between black and moori when they have the option of breeding within their species.



> I would also suggest keeping more than 8-12 fish in each colony.


Why? I have had as few as five and they have bred successfully.

Thanks for your response.


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## Jorsay (Jul 14, 2008)

Deelay,

Those are beautiful fish! What is your opinion on colony size? I will have many other fish in the 300 gallon, so I don't think intraspecies aggression will be a problem with 8 to 12 trophs.


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## IrkedCitizen (Apr 26, 2007)

The problem isn't interspecies aggression it is aggression within the colony. It's good that you have done well with 5 tropheus before and got breeding but that might not be the case the next go around. People have had 10 fish end up as one single fish due to aggression.

Another thing about shipping is things happen, delays happen, which can result in dead on arrival fish. Which means you have to deal with getting a refund or getting sent new fish and having to pay for shipping again. So worse case scenario is that all three shipments all fish are dead. You are out more time and more money.

How you can say that the fish aren't breeding with their siblings in the wild is ridiculous. There didn't just happen to be a new species of 50,000 fish in the lake. It happened over time and by now they are all related.

You'd also be surprised as to what species will breed with what in an aquarium setting even when there are enough in the colony to go around.

Ultimately it is up to you. Do what you want. I simply am giving you another perspective.


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## deelay (Feb 17, 2003)

Jorsay said:


> Deelay,
> 
> Those are beautiful fish! What is your opinion on colony size? I will have many other fish in the 300 gallon, so I don't think intraspecies aggression will be a problem with 8 to 12 trophs.


30 is a number i prefer, i never keep them under 23( the magic number) *** tried with 7 red cherry once but that went straight to h***

In the long run its cheaper for me to have many so i dont loose some because of agression.

It could work if you got 1 male and 8-10 females.


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## Jorsay (Jul 14, 2008)

IrkedCitizen said:


> The problem isn't interspecies aggression it is aggression within the colony. It's good that you have done well with 5 tropheus before and got breeding but that might not be the case the next go around. People have had 10 fish end up as one single fish due to aggression.


"Intra", the term that I used, means "within the same" species.



> Another thing about shipping is things happen, delays happen, which can result in dead on arrival fish. Which means you have to deal with getting a refund or getting sent new fish and having to pay for shipping again. So worse case scenario is that all three shipments all fish are dead. You are out more time and more money.


I understand but, again, the money is simply not an issue for me at this time.



> How you can say that the fish aren't breeding with their siblings in the wild is ridiculous. There didn't just happen to be a new species of 50,000 fish in the lake. It happened over time and by now they are all related.


I do not understand your point. A sibling is a brother or sister, not a cousin. Further, I do not know if you are saying that siblings must mate in order for speciation to occur or what exactly you are saying. Anyway, speciation does not require or even usually entail mating between siblings or mating between different species. The fact remains, it is somewhat rare for siblings to mate in the wild. There are many precautions in nature working against such a mating besides just poor fitness of the offspring and often including a proclivity not to mate with siblings.



> You'd also be surprised as to what species will breed with what in an aquarium setting even when there are enough in the colony to go around.


I am well aware that intersibling and interspecies breeding occurs quite readily in a fish tank. It even occurs in the wild. However, as I have pointed out, when given the option, animals will _tend_ to mate within the species.



> Ultimately it is up to you. Do what you want. I simply am giving you another perspective.


Thanks again for your input. [/quote]


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## Jorsay (Jul 14, 2008)

Deelay,

When you had seven, did you have other fish in the tank with them or were they alone. In your opinion, is it possible that having a crowded tank distracts the rampaging male enough to prevent severe beatings? I ask because I have had tropheus many times with success and never had more than 6 at a time, but I have always had them in a tank with many other species. When they fight, they inevitably wonder into frontosa territory or near brichardi fry and they are chased away and thus distracted.


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## deelay (Feb 17, 2003)

Jorsay said:


> Deelay,
> 
> When you had seven, did you have other fish in the tank with them or were they alone. In your opinion, is it possible that having a crowded tank distracts the rampaging male enough to prevent severe beatings? I ask because I have had tropheus many times with success and never had more than 6 at a time, but I have always had them in a tank with many other species. When they fight, they inevitably wonder into frontosa territory or near brichardi fry and they are chased away and thus distracted.


The funny thing is that they where swimming in a 150L tank in the store and that worked well, i watched them for some weeks before i bought them.
I Put them in my 860L tank with 15 other fishes like occelatus, nasuta and some callochromis macrops, first week was ok, then... 1 male got crazy and 10 days later it was over.
So from my eperience i whould say, few trophs in few liters(gallons) or else it will not work, they have to be where there are not enough space.


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## Jorsay (Jul 14, 2008)

Thanks for the input. I appreciate it.


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## Crush (Jun 9, 2004)

Jorsay said:


> Most animals, including fish, do not mate with their siblings in the wild. Fish that breed with their siblings are often less healthy. By offering fish the option of NOT inbreeding, they breed faster and produce healthier offspring.


Not neccessarily so. There is a 2007 study by Thunken _et al._ published in Current Biology entitled "Active inbreeding in a cichlid fish and its adaptive significance" that examines the inbreeding *preference* of Pelvicachromis taeniatus.

http://www.current-biology.com/content/article/abstract?uid=PIIS0960982206025711

Abstract:


> Levels of inbreeding are highly variable in natural populations. Inbreeding can be due to random factors (like population size), limited dispersal, or active mate choice for relatives. Because of inbreeding depression, mating with kin is often avoided, although sometimes intermediately related individuals are preferred (optimal outbreeding). However, theory predicts that the advantages of mating with close kin can override the effects of inbreeding depression, but in the animal kingdom, empirical evidence for this is scarce. Here we show that both sexes of Pelvicachromis taeniatus, an African cichlid with biparental brood care, prefer mating with unfamiliar close kin over nonkin, suggesting inclusive fitness advantages for inbreeding individuals. Biparental care requires synchronous behavior among parents. Since parental care is costly, there is a conflict between parents over care, which can reduce offspring fitness. Relatedness is expected to enhance cooperation among individuals. The comparison of the parental behavior of in- and outbreeding pairs showed that related parents were more cooperative and invested more than unrelated parents. Since we found no evidence for inbreeding depression, our results suggest that in P. taeniatus, inbreeding is an advantageous strategy.


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## Jorsay (Jul 14, 2008)

Crush said:


> Not neccessarily so. There is a 2007 study by Thunken _et al._ published in Current Biology entitled "Active inbreeding in a cichlid fish and its adaptive significance" that examines the inbreeding *preference* of Pelvicachromis taeniatus.
> 
> http://www.current-biology.com/content/article/abstract?uid=PIIS0960982206025711
> 
> ...


There is no disagreement between this statment and what I have stated. Please notice that the statement acknowledges that inbreeding is not the norm (i.e. "mating with kin is often avoided", "empirical evidence for (inbreeding advantages) is scarce", and it refers to "inbreeding depression" in nature [which is what I was referring to as 'precautions']). This is a study that is done on a single subject that is presented as an acception to the rule; the subject has an _abnormally_ high level of inbreeding. This study supports what I have stated above.

As I stated above, inbreeding _rarely_ happens in nature. Inbreeding _can_ and usually does lead to less healthy individuals.

Although I have no proof and have never discussed the topic before this thread, based entirely upon my knowledge of nature, I am certain that a colony of wild tropheus is not made up entirely of brothers and sisters. I would prefer to copy that model by purchasing tropheus from several sources. I suspect that it would lead to a healthier colony and more natural behavior.


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## Bettacreek (Mar 22, 2008)

I personally have 10 duboisi in a 72g bowfront, and, I honestly would never keep 10 in a colony for any extended period of time. Sure, they're spawning up a storm, but for the most part, there's so much aggression in the small colony that all you see is hiding fish and fighting fish. We're going back to pick up the second batch of fish soon, we were just "experimenting" with this small colony before picking up the rest. I'm honestly not sure why you would brush off everyone's advice about colony size. If you are adament about keeping your 8-12, then don't ask others' opinions about colony size. And, as far as inbreeding goes, people apparantly don't understand what inbreeding does. It does not cause health issues in any species. It simply increases your chances of recessive genes showing, whether they're good or bad.


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## Jorsay (Jul 14, 2008)

I don't think that I have brushed off anyone's advice about colony size. I was simply having a conversation for the purpose of learning from the experience of others. In such conversations, it is helpful to have some back and forth discussion as was the case above. If someone is upset because I asked "why", I think that is a bit thin skinned for a conversation, don't you. I apologize if I have offended anyone.

There was a response above that seemed to direct the conversation toward areas in which I wasn't interested in discussing. The implication seemed to be that I was incapable of choosing tank size, fish food, and keeping water clean. I tried to respond in a civil and nonconfrontational manner saying "Thanks, but I can take care of those issues." In an indirect and somewhat confrontational manner, the same post corrected me about what a rainbow tropheus was. I acknowledged my ignorance and thanked him for the information. The post also asked a question and stated some erroneous information. I tried to replied politely. Finally, the post suggested colony size. I simply asked "why" and stated the nature of my confusion comes from my own experience or lack there of.

As I said, I have never tried a group larger than 6, so I simply don't know. Based upon my inexperience and the conscensus of experience to the contrary here, I would say that you are probably correct, it is healthier to keep a larger colony.

As for intersibling mating, what I have said above is accurate. Expressing certain recessive traits can make the individual more susceptible to diseases as well as increasing abnormal physical and behavioral traits, and thus they are less healthy. It would be inaccurate to imply that this is as often beneficial as detrimental to the overall fitness of the individual or the population. Most often, inbreeding has a net negative result in health.

Just looking for information and opinions. Didn't mean to cause a stir.


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

I'm still not sold on the idea of large colonies being safer than a smaller colony other tham for aggression dispersal. I'm not so sure anymore that it is even natural behaviour for tropheus to exist in large groups in the lake except for the sake of raiding/foraging.

The more I read of people's experiences, the less I know for sure. :lol:


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## flynn (Dec 20, 2005)

Just my two cents...
When keeping 2 colonies toghether, one MAY (or often will) take over. Meaning the other MAY NOT show much coloration. One good reason why, IMO, one large colony have a nicer look than two smaller ones.
Also, what other fish do you plan to keep with them ?
I kept several different Tangs with mine, and I really find that I like my tank much better now with mostly just my Ts in (well with a few smaller Julies and BN).


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## Jorsay (Jul 14, 2008)

Flyn,

Thanks for the input. After this discussion, I am really struggling over what to do. I don't know if I said this already, but I just purchased a 300 gallon. It is sitting empty, waiting for me to make up my mind.

I currently have the 90 with a good mix of healthy, happy Tangs, apparently in violation of many dearly held beliefs, such as 6 fronts in a 90, 6 brichardi that have had as many as two sets of fry at once and have not terrorized the other fish while doing so, 4 leleupi that don't bother any other fish but each other, only 5 Tropheus bemba and they have not killed each other, etc... Quite frankly, the dogma of at least 23 tropheus, huges tanks for fronts, brine is higher quality protein than mysis, tropheus shouldn't eat brine, took me by surprise. I have a science background, and I find some of these claims are based upon ideas that conflict with conventional science. It also sounds to me like some are just repeating ideas that they have heard elsewhere from possibly questionable sources. There is even a thread on this site suggesting that some poor guy who just purchased a 300 gallon for his six fronts didn't purchase a large enough tank because of the dimensions (that sounds just plain silly).

I have always liked the mixed tank. It seems more natural to me. It also seems prettier and more interesting: different shapes, colors, sizes, and behaviors and lots of things going on at once. My intention was to do the same with the 300 gallon tank.

That said, comments like yours


> I kept several different Tangs with mine, and I really find that I like my tank much better now with mostly just my Ts in (well with a few smaller Julies and BN).


 make me stop and think. What is it exactly that you like more about your tank when it has fewer species? Would I be happier as well if I didn't mix them?

When I purchased the 300 I felt that it was large enough for two 8-12 troph colonies. Exspecially with many other tangs in the tank; I believe that more fish act to distract the agressive tropheus. It certainly works that way in my 90 gallon, not just for the trophs, but for all the aggressive alphas.

I should say that I have around 900 pounds of rock in my 300 gallon and it seems quite different then most of the set ups that I have seen on this site. My tanks are set up so that once a fish is in the tank, it will be nearly impossible to remove it. In other words, there are many places for a fish to hide and hundreds of pounds of rock would have to be removed to catch a single fish. There are many places deep within the rocks where a fish can go and not be seen from any angle. I like to put the fish in and leave them alone. Perhaps so many hiding places also controls the aggession.

Anyway, you just have to read this thread and others to see the anger that arises when one dares question the conventional 'dogma', so it can be difficult to have a reasonable discussion about such things. I appreciate your calm, noncondescending feedback about your 'firsthand' experience.

Thanks


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## flynn (Dec 20, 2005)

I guess what one has to consider is that, in the end, you will be the one looking at your tank for years to come...
I never tried, but can easily see that with 2 different Tropheus variants you may have a "dominant variant" that kind of take over the other one (not necessarily).
People talk and talk about feeding issues, which is in my sense a worthless point as long as you know about NLS (and there may be other equivalent food that I don't know of). You can keep just about any Tangs on that and have no problems. I have to apologize, I'm what could be called a "heavy feeder" at times... fed Ts with NLS Grow up to 3" (!) and never had a problem.
To answer your question, I had my 20 jumbo Cyps with 20 Ts in a 5 feet tank. All spawning like crazy, and the Cyps can keep the Ts at bay when spawning no problem. But something was looking weird... just like those 2 groups just didn't fit... Different shapes, different colors, should look nice... but didn't ! And it wasn't number. I finally sold the Cyps, and now have probably more than 40 Ts and they look much calmer (well in a Tropheus manner) and the overall look of the tank is much more pleasant. 
In a large tank, I believe you sure can have a couple of rockdwelling species and it would still look great. But, IMO, don't mix Ts with a specie that will swim up with them. (unless you have seen it before and like it, of course !).


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## RayQ (Sep 26, 2007)

The bottom line is that you have to do what YOU want - I don't think that other peoples experiences or beliefs really matter in the end with regards to tankmates (they all live in the same lake). . . as long as you can deal with any situations that may arise (if any). Today's quality foods make feeding a snap so I don't think that is an issue and with the rockwork that you are proposing. chances are that some fry will make it, no matter what species they are.

With regards to the buying a few specimens from different vendors, make sure that thier suppliers aren't the same - I mixed two F1 "Bulu Point" colonies of about 20 from different suppliers and later found out that they both came from the same florida wholesaler - probably relatives.

I say good luck and I would love to see some pics - huge tanks are always AWESOME!

Ray


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

Jorsay, with a 300 gallon tank, you could easily have a multi-species community, including a large colony of tropheus.

I'd love to see pics. :thumb:


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## ashilli48 (May 14, 2006)

quote "Anyway, you just have to read this thread and others to see the anger that arises when one dares question the conventional 'dogma', so it can be difficult to have a reasonable discussion about such things. I appreciate your calm, noncondescending feedback about your 'firsthand' experience." quote

I think you may have mistaken anger for passion. Most folks on here have been doing this a long time. Long enough, perhaps, to have not had the advantages afforded by a forum like this. They are passionate about fish, even those they will never see or own. The well being of the species at hand seems to be the ultimate goal. Second the fish keepers enjoyment/hapiness. More often than not, both are wrecked if you go at something outside of conventional wisdom/experience.

Having said all that try reading http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... highlight= , all 36 pages. Talk about bucking conventional wisdom. If you feel like you want to see something a certain way, in a certain setting, with certain tank mates, etc. knock yourself out! After all money is not a concern, as you said.

The only thing I would advice is your approach. You come off articulate, intelligent and thoughtful. However your tone is a bit condescending. The opinions on here are very valuable. I think some of your responders feel like they were intellectually or verbally slapped in the face for doing just what you asked, "give me your opinion".

My two cents and I'll go: You have the money? Contract a serious case of MTS (multiple tank syndrome) and you can watch all kinds of different sizes, shapes colors, etc. :thumb:

Take care and above all else, have fun!


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## ashilli48 (May 14, 2006)

oops


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## katytropheus (Jul 13, 2008)

It is very tempting with the large number of tropheus colorations to get hung up with mixing a lot of variants. My mo in the hobby has been if I saw a rare, beautfiul fish, buy it and try to make it work. I have changed over to one breed--tropheus and one vairant Bulu Point Cherry Spots. I certainly understand the "itch" you have to go variety in a big tank--I have a 375 and you really need a lot of tropheus, based on their size, to get a complete look in the tank. Also, like you, I have a ton of rocks and the only way a fish is coming out is if they are floating.

I went with the one variant to a large degree to see if I could get a breeding colony going. A lot of what I read on mixing variants seemed to indicate that mixing may cut down on breeding, although many people have apparently been successful with breeding with multiple tropheus colonies or tropheus in with other Tangs.

I was somewhat antsy on throwing some killer "yellow" tropheus in with the Cherry Spots but I received some nice feedback on actual coloration versus pictures posted online.

Bottom line, do what you feel you will enjoy long-term. The key to me is a setup that will have staying power in retaining your interest as well as keeping the fish alive.


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