# African Cichlid Newcomer wanting advice



## Aquasplash~ (Sep 13, 2016)

So, I have a 630L aquarium stocked with tropicals. However, I have found they die too readily, lack personality and, except for kribs, do not breed or have young which are difficult to raise. Therefore, I would like to convert the tank to a lake malawi cichlid set up. I really want some advice on cichlid care and stocking. The tank is 180cm x 65cm x 65cm.

I am interested in these species
Labidochromis caeruleus/ Yellow lab
Metriaclima estherae- both the orange morph and the 'blue dolphin' morph, but likely not both. 
Pseudotropheus saulosi
Pseudotropheus sp. "Acei"
Maybe Cynotilapia afra

So, I have plenty of questions
1. Do those species work together? How many species would you recommend in that sized tank? What is your experience keeping/breeding them?
2. Are there any other colorful, moderately sized mbuna which may work? I would really love something red but it seems to be a colour lacking among mbuna. 
3. Are haps with these mbuna ever a possibility?
4. Recommended water change amount/frequency?
5. Which would you recommend, synodontis multipunctatus or synodontis petricola? 
6. M:F ratios for each species? 1:4 seems to be the general rule, but I heard more for the saulosi. I definitely want at least some breeding.
7. How many would you recommend in the tank?
8. Can I keep a large pair of bristlenose plecs with them? What about clown loaches?


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## Biciclid (Jan 27, 2016)

Great size tank, how are you set up for filtration? Any idea why the current fish have a short lifespan? Amongst the species you mentioned I would pick the M. esthrae (orange and/or OB zebras) and P. saulosi and leave the yellow labs out as 1) you already have loads of yellow saulosi (except the dominant male that will be blue with black bars) and 2) the labs easily hybridize with the zebras. P. acei (or elegans as new name) are great in that size tank and Cynotylapia afra (now zebroides) from various locales are great. With these 4 species you would have a good foundation for your stocking, with yellow and blue barred from the saulosi, orange and possibly OB/Mcats from the zebras, blue from the acei and a bit of variety from the Cyno. With a tank that size you still have room for another 1 or probably 2 species, look around for what you like, I would chose amongst L. Perlmutt, Labeotropheus or Iodotropheus). These are all pretty common mbunas so should be straightforward to find, have you got a local retailer or are you going to have the fish shipped? Once the list is settled you need to decide if you want to buy them as unsexed juveniles or as sexed adults. My advice is to take your time setting up the tank, if your current fish are not living long it may be worth to empty it and disinfect the tank and anything you want to use again, sort out the rockscape, make sure your filters are up to the job (maybe new media and start a fishless cycle so they will be able to sustain the big bioload when you add 30-40 fish all at once). Taking this time will pay off in spades for the future wellbeing of the fish and allow you to be sure of your stocking list. On this forum there are people who have a wealth of experience with these fish and are happy to help, I found their advice invaluable. It is always worth asking their opinion. Ciao


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## Biciclid (Jan 27, 2016)

With regards to your other questions, as a newcomer to malawis I stick to mbunas, some more experienced folk keep haps with them maybe getting them in first and giving them a size advantage and chosing "feisty" species so they can stand up to the little sodds (there are even hap/mbuna hybrids). As you mentioned the colour red is almost unavailable amongst mbunas (Pseudotropheus perspicax red cap, super red top Hongi, Labeotropheus trewavasae Mpanga red) but the first 2 are pretty stroppy and the latter is rare. I am thinking of getting for my 2nd tank some Iodotropheus sprengerae red (Makokola) that I think were line bred in the Czeck Republic to look redder than usual Rusties. You are looking at changing about 200 liters of water each week so set it up so it is not too cumbersome and puts you off. With a tank that size you cold go between 30 and 50 fish depending on species and size. M/F ratio depends on the species, so once you have made your selection you can look up/ask what to aim for. If you want the offspring to stand a slim chance of surviving maybe avoid the Synodontis, some people keep bristlenoses in a malawi tank, I leave them in my southamerican where they thrive in the soft acidic water. The mbunas clean the rocks and a good magnet cleaner does a better job than a pleco clearing the diatoms from the glass.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

First of all, what is the footprint of the tank (LxW)?

1. Do those species work together? How many species would you recommend in that sized tank? What is your experience keeping/breeding them? 
_You will have some crossbreeding with the species you picked for sure. To fully answer this question, need tank size._

2. Are there any other colorful, moderately sized mbuna which may work? I would really love something red but it seems to be a colour lacking among mbuna. 
_There are lots of colorful mbuna. Red, unfortunately is just not present in mbuna. You'll find plenty of advertisers claiming they have a line-bred red ____, but I've always found that the pictures have been manipulated and in person the fish is orange at best._

3. Are haps with these mbuna ever a possibility?
_With yellow labs and Ps. acei they are. Not with the others._

4. Recommended water change amount/frequency?
_50% once per week is a good rule of thumb. Can be more or less depending on how many fish you have, etc._

5. Which would you recommend, synodontis multipunctatus or synodontis petricola? 
_Personal preference. Multis are better at fry control and are larger._

6. M:F ratios for each species? 1:4 seems to be the general rule, but I heard more for the saulosi. I definitely want at least some breeding.
_1:4 should work for all of the species you listed._

7. How many would you recommend in the tank?
_Need tank dimentions._

8. Can I keep a large pair of bristlenose plecs with them? What about clown loaches?
_Yes, but know that the mbuna may or may not attack them. Seems to be about 50/50 in my experience. _


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Kanorin said:


> First of all, what is the footprint of the tank (LxW)?


180cm x 65cm x 65cm.

Top of the first post.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Aquasplash~ said:


> So, I have a 630L aquarium stocked with tropicals. However, I have found they die too readily, lack personality and, except for kribs, do not breed or have young which are difficult to raise. Therefore, I would like to convert the tank to a lake malawi cichlid set up. I really want some advice on cichlid care and stocking. The tank is 180cm x 65cm x 65cm.
> 
> I am interested in these species
> Labidochromis caeruleus/ Yellow lab
> ...


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## Aquasplash~ (Sep 13, 2016)

I was not expecting that many replies  Thank you all.

@Biciclid
The tank has its original two filters on it- 2 Aqua One Aquis 1250s I believe.
As for the short lifespan, it isn't all of them. I have had some for well over 3 years. But the smaller tetras ect- cardinals and rummynoses don't seem to do too well. They just die. It may be the PH, the tap comes out 7.5 without adding anything. It may also be poor stock. There isn't much I can do about that as where I live there are only 2 fish shops with the same suppliers and no online order places I know of.
I don't like L. Perlmutt at all. Can you recommend any good species from the other two genuses?
I will probably get decent groups of unsexed juvies due to the lack of selection here, unless I buy them from other hobbyists.
I don't think the tank needs stripping down, I feel it is the fish more than the tank as some species thrive and even breed, especially rainbowfish and kribs [they don't survive though]. The gravel will be going and the tank will be wiped out, but I want to keep the media which is cycled.
What are the best haps with mixing with mbuna? I will probably do all mbuna though to make it as easy as possible for myself.

@Kanorin I don't think I would do 50% weekly. I was thinking more 1/3 weekly or 40% biweekly. I don't want to stock it too heavily.

Is it best to add the fish all at once or one species at a time [$$ would encourage the latter]?
Will both synodontis multipunctatus and petricola eat all/any fry? I certainly want survivors but not whole batches.
Probably giving up on red. Blue and yellow are nicer, less line bred and less hard to find!
Any experience keeping bristlenoses with these mbuna? I will probably not do the clowns, they get massive anyway.

Ok, I think I will drop the yellow labs. I don't want hybrids and they will be overkill with the saulosi anyway [which I definitely want]

How do these guys sound together?
Metriaclima estherae- blue male and orange females [or just orange]
Pseudotropheus saulosi
Pseudotropheus sp. "Acei"
Cynotilapia afra 
Large bristlenose pair
Maybe synodontis

What numbers would you suggest? Can I add another species? Any recommendations?


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## Biciclid (Jan 27, 2016)

I have been keeping fish for 12 years but only started a few months ago with mbuna so I am no great expert but being a veterinary surgeon and having been in your shoes I did plenty of research. You are right that rummy noses really prefer soft acidic water, i keep minae at 1-2 KH. You have a big tank, mine is as long but not as wide. I have acei, yellow labs, rusties, labeotropheus trewavasae and cynotylapia afra jalo reef; for my 2nd tank I will have saulosi mainganos perlmutts and ?red rusties? These are some general concepts (being such they have their limits) I have gathered:
Mbunas are feisty (some more than others) omnivores to vegetarians (acei and labeotropheus are more at the vegan end of the spectrum) and they live in a rocky environment. Haps and peacocks are of milder temperament, mainly carnivore diet and prefer sand and open water. This means that keeping both will involve some compromise both in thr setup and choice of fish, possibly putting the (sexed male) haps in first until they have a size/age advantage and chosing amongst the less meek ones (Aulonocara firefish -that is a man made hap/mbuna hybrid anyway- and Aulonocara stuartgranti group? Here the advice of more experienced hap keepers would help). When the time comes to put the mbunas in avoid the ones with the worse reputation (chipoke, auratus, crabro, johanni, demasoni et al.) and juggle the feeding to avoid the mbunas getting the dreaded bloat because of food too rich in animal protein. If the base of your selection is a few haps (with some red?), Saulosi, estherae, acei, afra I would consider mainganos (can be stroppy but hopefully amongst themselves and both males and females look great). Possibly also Labeotropheus. My advice is to plan it out then put it on this forum for the more experienced members to check and help you avoid at least the biggest pittfalls.


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## Aquasplash~ (Sep 13, 2016)

Thank you so much for your help. Unfortunately, I went back over the fish allowed to be imported into my country and no saulosi ):

When I combined fish on that list [which is a bit outdated but probably accurate] and fish I actually like I got these. So the stocking will have to revolve around them. Suggestions? Please disregard the prior list, I had not checked thoroughly enough.
metraclima aurora
metraclima elongatus
metraclima estherae
pseudotropheus flavus
pseudotropheus socolofi
cynotilapia afra
labidochromis caeruleus
pseudotropheus johannii [but they are agressive]
synodontis petricola/multipunctatus

electric blue haps [but may not be a good idea with mbuna!]

I will ask at the LFS about salousi, but I am not hopeful. I may be able to get aceis [unclear].

@Biciclid The rummies and cardinals will be moving to the smaller tropical tank where I will use some peat ect to drop the PH to below 7. I think they will like that better.


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## Biciclid (Jan 27, 2016)

I understand your predicament as here too (Italy) supply of quality fish is patchy (I get mine overnighted from Milan about 300 miles away). Then my advice is to get an exact inventory of what you can get from your lfs and reliable online retailers (that often have more variety and better quality) then put the list on the forum with your preferences so people can help to narrow it down. At least for mbunas the general consensus is to avoid picking species that look similar (to avoid conflict or hybridization), don't pick fish from the same genus (more chanche of hybridization) except for Pseudotropheus (that is kind of a holding genus for species that have not found a definitive taxonomic osition), possibly avoid having zebras and labs (hybridization) and avoid the worse psychos bearing in mind that even the milder ones can go postal so be ready to intervene.


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## Aquasplash~ (Sep 13, 2016)

Biciclid said:


> I understand your predicament as here too (Italy) supply of quality fish is patchy (I get mine overnighted from Milan about 300 miles away). Then my advice is to get an exact inventory of what you can get from your lfs and reliable online retailers (that often have more variety and better quality) then put the list on the forum with your preferences so people can help to narrow it down. At least for mbunas the general consensus is to avoid picking species that look similar (to avoid conflict or hybridization), don't pick fish from the same genus (more chanche of hybridization) except for Pseudotropheus (that is kind of a holding genus for species that have not found a definitive taxonomic osition), possibly avoid having zebras and labs (hybridization) and avoid the worse psychos bearing in mind that even the milder ones can go postal so be ready to intervene.


I checked, there aren't many online retailers here and none have better selection than my LFS, which is the biggest in the country. I think they could order any of the fish on the list above, so they are my main options. I will ask about the acei when I am next there but I think I could get a nice stocking list together from the others. I just want advice on which fish on the list above can and can't go together, how many and M:F ratios.


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## Biciclid (Jan 27, 2016)

What do you like best? I know you said you wanted to see some breeding but is the survival of the fry important for you? The best chances for this to happen are in a single species tank (to avoud hybridization) then to teansfer the holding female to a dedicated tank. If you let the females spit in your main tank only a minority will survive the adult mbunas and even those will be eaten by the Synodontis. So if all the fry is going to get eaten there is no concern about hybridization, just pick amongst those the species you like best then the one you like second best that does not look like the first and so forth. Try and get the acei as in a tank that size they look great and are usually no trouble


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Which country are you from?


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## Aquasplash~ (Sep 13, 2016)

Not saying online sorry.


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## Biciclid (Jan 27, 2016)

Your choice but I think the only provenence/skin colour members of this forum care about is that of their fish...


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## Aquasplash~ (Sep 13, 2016)

I'm happy with where I live, just not saying online. I don't see why it matters.


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## Biciclid (Jan 27, 2016)

It can help particularly with stocking issues. I am thinking at some point of setting up a discus tank, I even joined a dedicated Italian forum but no usefull advice about top breeders over here until on an international forum a nice fellow from Saudi Arabia told me about this breeder that has crazy good looking fish. Friended him on facebook and when the time comes I know where to go. I have also been asking if anyone knows of breeders/retailers in maybe Germany or Czech republic (where the main european malawi breeders are) that ship to my country Again your choice


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Aquasplash~ said:


> I'm happy with where I live, just not saying online. I don't see why it matters.


Because many of the jurisdictions have prohibitive lists, but actually a great deal more fish available than official. But hey, be worried that we are coming after your fish, wife, or tea kettle, because you mentioned a country. opcorn:


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

These could work together, along with a group of 5 Synodontis.
metraclima estherae
pseudotropheus flavus
pseudotropheus socolofi
cynotilapia afra

I'd try for 1m:5f of each.


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## Aquasplash~ (Sep 13, 2016)

Okay, I will ask at the LFS store about the saulosi, but I couldn't find anyone saying they had them online here, so I think the prohibitive list is right.

I am more worried about sorting out my stocking than where I will get them from right now anyway. I need somewhere to start.

Here is a list of my favourites [ranked]
Definitely want cynotilapia afra and yellow labs and/or pseudotropheus flavus.

Order of preference
cynotilapia afra
labidochromis caeruleus
pseudotropheus flavus
metraclima estherae
metraclima aurora
metraclima elongatus
pseudotropheus socolofi


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## Aquasplash~ (Sep 13, 2016)

But I am happy with any stocking suggestions from that list 

I would like babies to survive, at least a few, and no hybrids. Which are likely to hybridise?


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## Biciclid (Jan 27, 2016)

Basically don't pick two species from the same genus (although you can do it with pseudotropheus) don't pick estherae if you are having Labidochromis caeruleus and even so there is always a chance of hybridization. To minimize it, the more females per species the better, if there are males with few/no females of their species then any port in a storm...


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## tanker3 (May 18, 2015)

Order of preference
cynotilapia afra Nice fish and colorful, but a little timid
labidochromis caeruleus Always a good choice for any tank.
pseudotropheus flavus Grows a little big, but I have no experience with this fish
metraclima estherae You maybe disappointed. They did not stay "Red" enough for me.
metraclima aurora These get kind of mean, maybe the meanest of the list.
metraclima elongatus No experience with this fish
pseudotropheus socolofi Nice "Blue" color, but may clash with the Zebras if you get Blue males.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'm still only seeing the one combo option given your list because of the reasons tanker has given. Babies are only likely to survive if you have other tanks to separate the mom and then them.

Afra, lab, flavus and socolofi are unlikely to hybridize if you have 1m:4f of each.


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## The Dude315 (May 19, 2015)

I have Nyererei in my tank with Haps and Peacocks. They are normally suggested as tankmates for mbuna. They are very fiesty / aggressive. I've got 3 males in my 150 which I'm constantly adding and removing fish to get a successful combination. They are redder than red.. my dominant male in my 150 and my 75 (which has 3 females for the lucky bachelor) are bright ride. Fortunately there are alot of other fish in the 150 which keep the targetting to a manageable minimum. They are amazing fish. I'm very happy that they were brought to my attention.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I did both combinations...nyererei with haps and peacocks (washed out) and nyererei with mbuna and females (overly dark...like black). For me their color was much better in a species tank.

See how they do at around the two-year mark (with haps and peacocks) before making a final decision on whether it's a reliable mix.


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## Aquasplash~ (Sep 13, 2016)

Yes, those are lovely. But I have decided all mbuna is probably best.

So, I have narrowed down my selections a lot.
metraclima estherae
pseudotropheus flavus and/or labidochromis caeruleus
cynotilapia afra or pseudotropheus elongatus
pseudotropheus socolofi [unless I can get acei]
synodontis petricola

So, suggested numbers? I would like around 25-30 fish total [including the synos]


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

1m:4f of each except elongatus with 1m:7f. Five Synodontis.

Do not combine estherae and labidochromis caeruleus.


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## Aquasplash~ (Sep 13, 2016)

Is that because they will hybridise or because they would be agressive towards each other?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Hybridize for the estherae/labs. 1m:7f of the elongatus because of aggression.


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