# "Reh Heads" & Convicts



## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

So a few months ago i decided to get back into fish keeping after a few years break due to traveling & after staring at my old 55 gallon & my other tanks sitting, collecting dust in the basement i re-set up everything & got the ball rolling on cycling.

I ended up buying a male convict, maybe 1 1/2'' in length about 4 weeks into the cycling to help take the cycling to the next level, also i love their personality's...2 weeks after that i purchased 3 Geophagus sp. "Tapajos Red Heads" (2 male, 1 female) off a fellow forum member...Awesome fish, them & the convict all got along great...2 weeks after that i bought 2 small female convicts...

Now it's been 3 weeks since the 2 female convict purchase. 8 days ago the male Convict & a female paired and spawned...There's 75-ish babies swimming around alongside them happy as can be...2 Nights ago the Dominant male & female Geo spawned, there's now 75-100 eggs...It's been a fun, exciting interesting week...

But where they are spawned has created a little dilemma for me...They both have spawned on the same large rock...Convicts after much moving around the babies for the last week ended up taking the "bottom bunk" of the rock, and the immediate vicinity substrate area. The geo's laid the egg's on the very top of the rock in the front taking control of the upper area of the tank.

Here's a pic of the large rock tower they spawned on:
(Prior to both spawns)










As of now i think i'm deadest on trying to let the parents raise them & let nature take it's course as the convicts i'm sure will breed a lot in the future so i'm not all that concerned on feeling the need to strip them & raise them in another tank.
The Geo's from what i understand after a couple months of studying don't seem to spawn so easily, though people have said they do, i also read a lot of "takes a long time" etc etc & i know from earlier attempts to purchase some they arn't all that available to purchase or they are on the pricey side so for a few reasons i have a desire to make the best choice for them to survive while letting the parents raise them if possible. 
Also my daughter who has taken a lot of interest in the fish as well, been using this be a educational experience.

Has anyone had similar experiences with these 2 breeds together? 
What concerns should i have apart from the common sense ones such as aggression?

The lone female Convict who's trying to survive being the loner now & stalked by the male several times of the day resides on the other side of the tank as does the loner male Geo now. The loner female Convict who has visible fin bites & highly stressed-skittish persona i know i'll have to remove from the tank or she'll prob die. She's also had a "swollen belly" since the Convict pair spawned & starting to think she's holding as well (I think).
The loner male Geo is prob living life now that he has 3/4 of the tank to himself for the most part, but will more then likely have to be placed in another tank i'm guessing to make things more peaceful with the Paired Geo's as he REALLY wanted the female the last month & still has show-able interest.

Think these 2 loners will do well in a 30 gallon for a bit or the long run?
or
Should i put some plans in the works to let all the Geo's have their own large tank loner male included & the convicts have their own as well?

Here's a prior photo of the whole 55 they're in before the spawning & a redecorating recently & new DIY canopy. I can update with more recent pics. of the tank, & stages of the spawning i've been chronicling with my digital cam once i find the elusive upload cable.










The 3 Geo's:









Any good advice?


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## aspen (Jun 15, 2004)

my tapajos spawn every 3 weeks or so, and if you want to save babies, you're likely going to have to grab the eggs and raise them yourself, ime. i'm pretty sure the small pleco i have grabs the eggs when he wants, at night-time.

that tank is plenty big enough for these fish, but i'd try very hard to establish 2 ends of the tank, with suitable breeding substrates for each fish, divided in the middle. fyi, my tapajos always breed low to the ground, a piece of slate is the choice breeding spot. i have 2 pairs breeding regularly in a 29 gal, 30 inches long.

in your tank, there seems to be too much current on the right side. obviously both species prefer less current. can you set it up so there is a quieter spot on each end? maybe move the penguin (330 i think) to the centre? or, try to reduce the flow.

what is your water hardness? convicts will breed successfully in hard water, tapajos i think need it quite soft for the eggs to be viable.

rick


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## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

Convicts and those geos are a bad mix. Especially in a 55gal, if I read that correctly.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

I agree... my two cents is this... If you want to breed cichlids they need to be in seperate tanks...


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

aspen said:


> my tapajos spawn every 3 weeks or so, and if you want to save babies, you're likely going to have to grab the eggs and raise them yourself, ime. i'm pretty sure the small pleco i have grabs the eggs when he wants, at night-time.
> 
> that tank is plenty big enough for these fish, but i'd try very hard to establish 2 ends of the tank, with suitable breeding substrates for each fish, divided in the middle. fyi, my tapajos always breed low to the ground, a piece of slate is the choice breeding spot. i have 2 pairs breeding regularly in a 29 gal, 30 inches long.
> 
> ...


Well the avg Hardness for my town & area is around 3 gpg w/ a PH of 7.0 out of the faucet. We have awesome public drinking water in the Boston area. The water i use for water changes i use Prime & some baking soda stirred with a powerhead over night in a 30 gallon bucket & kept @ 78 degree's with a 100 watt heater to maintain temps. PH before adding to the tank is 7.4/7.6

The equipment in the 55 is a Emperor 400 w/ added DIY cultivation sponges before the mesh part of the filter cartridges & a phosphate bag filled with a 50/50 mixture of extra carbon & ammo-chips, a Penguin 170 (apparently they don't make them anymore)also with a cultivation sponge inside on top of the typical filter cartridge, A Marineland HOT Magnum, 9 watt Coralife 3x Turbo twist UV Sterilizer i turn on every other week & a 200 watt heater.

Yeah i was aiming to attract the Geo's to the right side of the tank prior to the spawning as something told me the female was going to spawn soon as her belly was starting to swell & the courtship dancing was becoming more intense, so i cleared out the whole tank except the convict side, changed everything around. Clay flowerpot in the back corner with some plants on the sides of it, tossed a few boiled large clam shells i collected from the beach over the summeras, a smooth holding type surface as well to lay on, put more plants by the Convict side to screen their side away from the others so everyone had their own peaceful place in the tank with as least disturbance as possible, at least that was the goal at the time. Got everything finished, took a shower came back to feed them & i noticed the Geo's in the Convict area which didn't happen at all the whole 8 days of the Convicts tending to their off spring and noticed they had laid eggs on top of the rock tower. However this evening it appears the Convicts lead all the babies over to the right side of the tank now & have taken over the flowerpot so the same rock scenario is over for now.

As far as the current goes yeah the HOT was moved after that pic was taken. It now sits on the backside in the middle of the left side to the right of the 170 with the flow pointed towards the right to help bring water from the left side over to the right side where the 400 is as the 170 is really only intended as extra ammonia removal opposed to being a filter intended to handle that side of the tank.

As far as substrate goes, before i got into Cichlids i was big on keeping Clown Loaches which is what i kept in that tank years before & they loved the rocks which i've always been accustomed to. I've been debating the switch over to sand prob. for the last 2 months right after i got back into keeping fish. I think the sand over gravel debate has been the biggest studying point for me & my daughter & i setup a 10 gallon with CaribSea Aragonite sand as a test tank to see for myself if sand was the way i wanted to go, though i think i'd be going with pool filter sand as that seems to be the best overall choice. Since i made that final decision right when i was about to buy the sand & prep it for the 55 the Convicts spawned so that plan is on hold at the moment lol.

Are your Tapajos "Orange heads" or "Red heads" or the other one from the same area i cant think of the name?

When do you think it's ok to remove the egg's, how should i remove them using what & how should i house & raise them based on your personal experience?



SinisterKisses said:


> Convicts and those geos are a bad mix. Especially in a 55gal, if I read that correctly.


Well i've had plans for a month now to upgrade to a 120 or a 180 gallon just been watching for a good deal @ Boston Reefers & Craiglist so the 55 isn't a long term thing, it's what i had already. I kept all my old equipment & tanks knowing i'd be back into the hobby eventually.

As far as mixing the 2 species together it was a gamble & still is but it's something i wanted to see for myself before any further plans were made. I'm a very hands on do it yourself, see for yourself person. Especially when it comes to fish, they all have their own little likes & dislikes from the norm & not everyone has the same experiences. So far so good, but obviously with the latest developments my stance on it is changing due to the circumstances given.



TheFishGuy said:


> I agree... my two cents is this... If you want to breed cichlids they need to be in seperate tanks...


Breeding was never the intention, keeping them was. The spawning being a bi-product of keeping them is something i wasn't expecting so soon, though i shouldnt be surprised it happened as fast as it did with the Convicts. So the spawning which is the now not the mindset i had 2 months ago is what i'm fishing for advice on.

Prior to this like i mentioned to SinisterKisses i was already in the market for a much larger setup & yes they should be separated that i surely agree on as well. But i don't have a 120 gallon or 180 as of yet which i'm thinking i'll be putting the Geo's in.

What i do have at the moment to work with is a 10 gallon been running and cycled now for well over a month already to be used, a 20 gallon long & a 30 gallon besides the 55 gallon.

Am i planning on keeping the babies, no. I've already been seeking possible future homes for the baby convicts via friends & other hobbyist friends once they grow more over the next month or 2 which is the assumption i'm under, i'll leave that as a open question. I might keep a few though, pref females opposed to males if i'm able to spot the sex early. 
The Geo's same as Convicts, though i'm thinking of offering them on here first when they are ready.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

there's no need to do all that prep for your water...


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

TheFishGuy said:


> there's no need to do all that prep for your water...


Yeah i know, it's a old routine i had & peace of mind. :lol:
I never have had issues with water quality or disease or anything in all the years i kept fish, that being said i just stuck with what seemed to work, whether it be overkill, or over burden :lol: As long as they're happy i don't care.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

I understand old habits are hard to kick, but I also use prime, I just add it to the tanks while they fill...


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

TheFishGuy said:


> I understand old habits are hard to kick, but I also use prime, I just add it to the tanks while they fill...


Is the Chlorine, Chloramine etc etc removal instant? I was always under the impression gases like Chlorine need a little time to escape/evaporate first before it's actually gone & the Carbon can interfere with the chemicals in conditioners like Prime from working properly like it does with meds putting the gills of the fish @ risk of burns.

Now let me ask whats your opinion on salts & trace element supplements for South Americans & Central Americans? This field of things i'm not all too comfortable with experience & knowledge wise.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Everything wee keep has been bred for generations in tap water... they'll be fine...

Charcoal removes chlorine 

All my fish are thriving and breeding... I do 1/3 changes once a week, some times I add the prime before, during or after... no one has filed a complaint yet LOL


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## aspen (Jun 15, 2004)

while i agree i wouldn't set this tank up with these 2 species, i don't see any reason there can't be accomodation for these 2 species. there's sure room. if it gets too chippy, just put in a divider.

i wouldn't bother raising convicts. there are simply too many baby convicts for too few enthusiasts. but the tapajos would be marketable. you might simply get a live bearer fry holder for the meantime, till you see that you have viable fy. any of the media in any of those filters, except the penguin would fit into an old style box type filter in a pinch to move them to a tank of their own. i would keep the light off, as light can encourage the eggs to fungas over. see what you get. if you've got 50 babies, that'd be worth getting a tank for, you'll get good credit at your lfs for them if you raise them nicely to 2" or so.

mine are red head tapajos.

fyi, i age my tapwater for 24 hours, circulate, then use prime and add it straight in. then i sit and watch the fish for any negative or positive signs.

rick


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

pairs in community settings in small tanks like these are nothing but problems...


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

Well i ordered a couple new heaters last night for the 30 gallon & 20 long as i already have filters from running those tanks years ago already, penguin 3x 170's & i have a few of the smaller one's i forget what they are. I have the 3 170's running on the 55 atm to get the bacteria cultivation moving along & filling the tanks with 70% water from the 55 gallon.

Going to set those tanks up & thinking moving the convicts into the 30 leaving the loner female in the 55 as i dont see much harm from her on her own in the 55 with the Geo's, the 20 L for the convict fry & thinking using the 10 gallon thats been running for over a month now using for the geo babies when the time is right for the time being.

Instead of using sponge filters for the fry i made DYI skimmer type tubes that encase the intakes of the HOB's for the 30, 20, 10. The tubes weighted down with gravel rock & the tubes go up to about a inch under the water line which seems to be too high for the fry to swim up to judging from my observations in the 55. Though i am questioning of possibly adding a mesh guard on the top as prevention for the just in case moment.

I also ordered brine hatchery stuff & egg's. Has anyone done the mason jar with a air tube method to hatching these? Does it work well?

Question about the convict fry & Geo's egg's. It's been about 2 weeks give or take a day since the Convict babies "hatched". They have been freely swimming with the parents around the tank for almost a week now. Should i wait the full month before removing them or is it ok to do so now? Besides the obvious stress i'm sure the parents will be feeling when that happens should i be concerned with the possibility's of the male hurting or killing the female after i take the fry or will they get over it & go on with life? Or should i just keep the parents & the fry together in the 30 gallon?

The Geo's. Is it ok/safe to remove the eggs at this stage? They now have little black marks on the eggs appearing to be form of the babies taking shape or do i wait & for how long do i wait til i take them from the parents?. If i am able to remove the eggs now what would be the best way of removing them safely & should i put them in a net in the other tank, put them in a little flower pot etc etc.

Also this guy's DIY project had me thinking of another alternative route on things as well
http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aq ... ytank.html
Anyone done this themselves?


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Please do not be offended but I'm going to pick this post apart. You have been great enough to post an informative post when usually no one does. So I'm going to do my best on every question and or concern. 



CrypticLifeStyle said:


> Well i ordered a couple new heaters last night for the 30 gallon & 20 long as i already have filters from running those tanks years ago already, penguin 3x 170's & i have a few of the smaller one's i forget what they are. I have the 3 170's running on the 55 atm to get the bacteria cultivation moving along & filling the tanks with 70% water from the 55 gallon.


Excellent, most people do not know to do this! :thumb:



> Going to set those tanks up & thinking moving the convicts into the 30 leaving the loner female in the 55 as i dont see much harm from her on her own in the 55 with the Geo's, the 20 L for the convict fry & thinking using the 10 gallon thats been running for over a month now using for the geo babies when the time is right for the time being.


Here's how I would use the tanks you have. The 20L should get a pair of convicts in it and that's it. That's all you'll ever need! They will spawn over and over and over again with no place to put the fry. No one wants them, no one has a place for 1,000,000 convicts... besides me! :lol: Using the 10 for the geo fry off the bat is a good idea, but soon they will need the space to grow out, and the 30 is perfect for that. You'll be able to sell or give away the geo fry without a problem once they reach an inch.



> Instead of using sponge filters for the fry i made DYI skimmer type tubes that encase the intakes of the HOB's for the 30, 20, 10. The tubes weighted down with gravel rock & the tubes go up to about a inch under the water line which seems to be too high for the fry to swim up to judging from my observations in the 55. Though i am questioning of possibly adding a mesh guard on the top as prevention for the just in case moment.


Nothing, I repeat, NOTHING is better than a sponge filter for fry tanks, or any tanks for that matter. You can filter your 55,30,20L and 10 with one air pump at 4-7 watts as apposed to all those H.O.B. or spill filters... With sponges there's no sucked up fry and they will graze on the ditrius on the sponge! What more can you ask for than cheap AND efficient!?!?!!!!

Incidently you can just as easily put a sponge over the intakes of the filters, no matter where the intake is they will find a way to get sucked in it... trust me I've been down this road... and it was bumpy...



> I also ordered brine hatchery stuff & egg's. Has anyone done the mason jar with a air tube method to hatching these? Does it work well?


It works but it's a pain in the rear. You need to get yourself some de-encapsulated brine shrimp and you will never hatch brine again. ALL of my fry grow up on it from the time they're wrigglers to an inch. The stuff is like GOLD!! PM me if you're interested and I will give you Dan Woodlands email to get some from him.



> Question about the convict fry & Geo's egg's. It's been about 2 weeks give or take a day since the Convict babies "hatched". They have been freely swimming with the parents around the tank for almost a week now. Should i wait the full month before removing them or is it ok to do so now? Besides the obvious stress i'm sure the parents will be feeling when that happens should i be concerned with the possibility's of the male hurting or killing the female after i take the fry or will they get over it & go on with life? Or should i just keep the parents & the fry together in the 30 gallon?


Standard practice around here is to remove 2/3 of the fry once they're free swimming for a day or so leaving the rest for the parents to rear. It's a little tricky in your case due to the community setting they're in. Here's what you do:

1. Remove the male and put him into the 20 long.
2. After a week, remove the female to join him in the 20L with plenty of hiding spots for her. She will not be happy leaving her fry in the 55, but it's a better place for them and her. Yes, you'll lose the fry to either filtration or the goes. Not an issue, it's nature and the geos will like the protien. Besides, you have no other outlet for convict fry, you will soon be overrun with them. I do not remember if you have other convicts, if you do now is the time to get rid of them.



> The Geo's. Is it ok/safe to remove the eggs at this stage? They now have little black marks on the eggs appearing to be form of the babies taking shape or do i wait & for how long do i wait til i take them from the parents?. If i am able to remove the eggs now what would be the best way of removing them safely & should i put them in a net in the other tank, put them in a little flower pot etc etc.


The geos will take better care of the eggs than you will. leave them with the parents!



> Also this guy's DIY project had me thinking of another alternative route on things as well
> http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aq ... ytank.html
> Anyone done this themselves?


As for the guys project...I'll admit, I didn't look at it, I've provided you with the simplest outcome of everything you're doing with what you have to do it with... 

I'll check it out and nit pick it too :lol:

Listen, I've been around the block, I've bred countless cichlids from every continent and currently have 33 tanks set up from 10 gallons to 1200... I'm a board member of the Ohio Cichlid Association and run Monster Fish Rescue. I'm also a carpenter... I say that because I've tried all the DIY stuff and have failed in every aspect of this hobby. From those failures I've learned the simplest, most efficient and most inexpensive way to run my fishroom...

The advice given is from 24 years of keeping and breeding cichlids... do with it what you will 

I jst figured you spent all that time on your post the least I could do was return the favor!

Have great day and don't forget to make someone smile today


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

Right on. Thank you for the info & feedback, been quite helpful, much appreciated. :thumb:


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

They are called "Orange head", not "red head".

Cons and OHs come from different continents, they require different water parameters, they need different substrates, and they have different temperaments.

A breeding pair of cons are some of the meanest fish. There will be serious aggression once the con fry become free swimming. The OHs won't be able to defend themselves because they have to keep their months shut to hold the fry.

OHs get to 8"+. A 55g is not big enough for them in the long run.

You mentioned you are hands on kind of person and like to see what works. You might want to reconsider what "works" means - you can probably keep a penguin and an ostrich alive in the same cage in your living room. They may even lay eggs for you. Is it "working"?


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

peathenster said:


> They are called "Orange head", not "red head".


A common name is just that, a common name. Orange, red, purple... all in the eye of the beholder. Hence scientific names...



> Cons and OHs come from different continents, they require different water parameters, they need different substrates, and they have different temperaments.


I do not subscribe to this theory in any way shape or form. I've got almost forty species of cichlids under my belt (bred) and I do NOTHING to my water but ad dechlor. These species come from africa, SA and CA. As of latelty it's been mostly CA/SA... Technically my water comes out of the tap perfect for africans... Yet I keep mostly CA/SA and BREED THEM.

These fish have been bred in captivity for so many generations it doesn't matter any more. I even have F! and wild caught species that are thriving and breeding... The greatest thing about cichlids is their adaptability. Just look at their history.



> A breeding pair of cons are some of the meanest fish. There will be serious aggression once the con fry become free swimming. The OHs won't be able to defend themselves because they have to keep their months shut to hold the fry.
> 
> OHs get to 8"+. A 55g is not big enough for them in the long run.
> 
> You mentioned you are hands on kind of person and like to see what works. You might want to reconsider what "works" means - you can probably keep a penguin and an ostrich alive in the same cage in your living room. They may even lay eggs for you. Is it "working"?


- Gigantic tanks are not always needed... I'm breeding 13" oscars in a 50 breeder as we type. Sometimes to get things to spawn that's what it takes... Managing aggression is the key to being a successful breeder.


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

TheFishGuy said:


> peathenster said:
> 
> 
> > They are called "Orange head", not "red head".
> ...


IMO "common names" refer to those given to species that already have scientific names. Things like "green terror", "red terror", etc. Look what they have done to the hobby. Are you happy with the confusion among the three species referred to as "green terror"? Or that regarding festae and urophthalmus as "red terror"? Geophagis "Orange head" Tapajos is an undescribed species and as such, no scientific name has been given. Is it then ok to disrespect the original name and call it whatever you want? Just like for "green terror" and "red terror", vendors came up with the name "red head" because it makes the fish sound more attractive and therefore more profitable, at the expensive of bringing in unnecessary confusion to hobbyists. Is this something you support?

I will not comment on what you have done with your own fish, except to say that I'm saddened that experienced hobbyists like you are opponents, rather than proponents, of responsible fish keeping. Just know this - a couple can live in a room the size of a prison cell, with foul odors, and still reproduce (very sorry for the wording). A proper living environment is therefore not "needed". But is this something you would like to experience personally?

I assume the answer is "no". Then why do you do this to your fish? Because you can. And you have the "right". And you don't care.

With a little research, most people can find out what their tank and water can comfortably support. Most people also have a long list of fish they wish to keep. The question is this: when conflicts arise between the two, what are your priorities?


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Do you realize you're stressing your fish more by trying to get their water "perfect"?

The up and down of messing with the water chemistry is intensely more damaging then breeding cichlids in small spaces. You don't think that when experienced breeders use these small tanks they do water changes or something??? C'mon man... Of course water changes are done... on a daily basis...

Comparing people to fish is ludicris. Keep in mind this is coming from someone who runs a rescue! It's not my first day... I've been doing it for 24 years now... I care for my fish better than most people care for their kids. And experience has tought me that some times using a 125 for certain pairs of fish is wise, and sometimes it's just not necessary. Oscars in nature stake out an area of 32 square feet (as big a 4x8 sheet of plywood) to defend and spawn in. To attempt to reproduce that is rediculous. ANY TANK IS TOO SMALL. when you compare it to the river and lake systems of central and south america. When a pair shows interest in spawing in the 1200 gallon they are pulled, quaranteened for a few weeks being feed quality foods then put together to spawn. After spawning they go back into the general population. The fish here are treated like kings.

As for your common name issue... I do not support ANY common names because of confusion... Opinions vary, and you're entitled to yours and I'm entitled to mine. 

When turning in fry for Breeder Award Points it's required to use the scientific name.


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

TheFishGuy said:


> Do you realize you're stressing your fish more by trying to get their water "perfect"?
> 
> The up and down of messing with the water chemistry is intensely more damaging then breeding cichlids in small spaces. You don't think that when experienced breeders use these small tanks they do water changes or something??? C'mon man... Of course water changes are done... on a daily basis...


You are saying improper water treatment is deleterious to fish. That, I don't disagree. But I am confused with a number of things.

1. I never said improper water treatment is good? 
2. Why is proper water treatment (such as adding driftwood or peat moss to lower pH) stressful to fish?
3. Why do we have to choose between suitable water and ample tank space?

My point, Sir, is that one should understand what fish one can keep in the water and tank one can provide.



TheFishGuy said:


> Comparing people to fish is ludicris. Keep in mind this is coming from someone who runs a rescue! It's not my first day... I've been doing it for 24 years now... I care for my fish better than most people care for their kids. And experience has tought me that some times using a 125 for certain pairs of fish is wise, and sometimes it's just not necessary. Oscars in nature stake out an area of 32 square feet (as big a 4x8 sheet of plywood) to defend and spawn in. To attempt to reproduce that is rediculous. ANY TANK IS TOO SMALL. when you compare it to the river and lake systems of central and south america. When a pair shows interest in spawing in the 1200 gallon they are pulled, quaranteened for a few weeks being feed quality foods then put together to spawn. After spawning they go back into the general population. The fish here are treated like kings.


I admire what you have done in fish keeping and animal rescue. With all due respect, Sir, saying "I've been keeping fish like this for 25 years and therefore it is right" is like saying "I've been jaywalking for 25 years and therefore it is the right way to cross a street". I don't mean what you did is wrong. I'm simply arguing about the logic here.

Of course we cannot provide what they enjoy in nature. For most species anyways. But does it make it ok to keep large fish in small tanks? What you did with the Os are perfectly fine. But that's not what we are arguing here. The OP does not keep the orange heads in a 1200 gallon tank and only move them to the 55 for breeding.



TheFishGuy said:


> As for your common name issue... I do not support ANY common names because of confusion... Opinions vary, and you're entitled to yours and I'm entitled to mine.
> 
> When turning in fry for Breeder Award Points it's required to use the scientific name.


Then there should be no further discussion on this topic.

Just to clarify - I am not arguing about what you did in your past 25 years of fish keeping. I'm arguing that it is inappropriate to keep a breeding group of cons and OHs in the same 55g tank with gravel substrates....


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Until offically described, _Geophagus sp._ 'Tapajos Oranghead' *IS* the scientific name for all intents and purposes ... With orangeheads, redheads, and Tapajos 1's being common names.

I dislike the common names as well, and would prefer everyone including LFS used the latin names. But then I also think Catholic masses should still be in latin, so take that as you will. 

As for the OP situtation: Gravel bad for Geos ... Cons bad for these Geos aggression wise.


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

peathenster said:


> They are called "Orange head", not "red head".
> 
> Cons and OHs come from different continents, they require different water parameters, they need different substrates, and they have different temperaments.
> 
> ...


Orange head, red head...That is actually quite arguable...Most people base this knowledge off a book published 9 years ago by Thomas Weidner...I've read both sides on the argument & still til this day whether they are the same or different has yet to be officially said t least from what i've read from many sources...What i do know is there's many variants of "orange heads" & true they are the same species, i'm leaning on the argument red heads and a few others are sub-species as "Orange Heads" are genus of the Geophagus species...Even til this day they are still finding more variants...

I've taken a lot of interest lately on the debate & from the Orange heads i've seen Orange heads tend to have the orange bleed over to the cheeks, and on the cheek area as well as the frontal portion of the head, while the "red heads" don't bleed there colors over to the cheek area, the coloration is confined to just the frontal portion of the face and head...Breeders have also noted differences on the 2 when it comes to brooding...So for now as mine matches what people consider "red heads" i'm going to refer to them as "red heads"...Hence un-described by science, nothing is actually official...At least from my understanding :-??

Yes they come from different continents CA/SA but they arn't worlds apart...This isn't african w/ the americans...My fish in question are also not from the wild where scientific parameters are exceptionally important...These were captive born & raised in aquariums...There's a bit more leniency as they grew up under other/our conditions & honestly i don't think my own water parameters are really far off from the right conditions these fish should be kept in...They are happy, active, healthy & breeding...I gotta be doing something right, right?

As far as the Con's attitude, yeah i established that a week+ ago when i was asking for advice, followed by me mentioning my intentions of separating them which i also asked advice on after my first series of questions were answered...

They all have their separate tanks now for the past week...

3 geo's are in the 55 with a loner Con female & the cons are in their 20L with 30-40 babies as i let the geo's eat half of the original amount & the 30 is being cycled to house the babies to grow out in...But like i said in a previous post i've been searching around for the right 120 gallon @ the right price whch the geo's will be going into, then the cons are going back into the 55...

As far as the whole what works statement, i'm going to leave it be & not even get into that with you as i don't see it being worth my time...

As far as keeping fish goes, i'm 29 years old, soon to be 30. I've been keeping fish since i was 13. I'm only new to Cichlids, not fish keeping...I have some years under my belt on some things in this hobby i'm not entirely dumbfounded on things...



peathenster said:


> Look what they have done to the hobby. Are you happy with the confusion among the three species referred to as "green terror"? Or that regarding festae and urophthalmus as "red terror"? Geophagis "Orange head" Tapajos is an undescribed species and as such, no scientific name has been given. Is it then ok to disrespect the original name and call it whatever you want?


Wasn't said to me, but i'm going to respond to it anyways...I think that's really personal preference as the fish i'm sure arn't feeling "dis-respected", more on the lines of you coming off as you were...Not everyone is uptight about what the names some fish are referred to as...Not everyone is hard-coded into the hobby enough to remember scientific names...

I tell you one thing, i'm feeling a little dis-respected by your demeanor that you displayed in your responses to this thread...
A little less preaching & maybe a bit more teaching would be my advice...



dwarfpike said:


> As for the OP situtation: Gravel bad for Geos ... Cons bad for these Geos aggression wise.


Yeah i know...The cons have sand in their new tank (which they seem to really enjoy digging in), i had plans for sand for the Geo's as well, but those intentions are on halt while they are raising their young for a bit or til i score the 120 gallon i think i have my eye's set on then i can get that setup in the meantime...I've also removed pretty much all the fake plants & have replaced those with live java moss...Being my first time having spawnings, & 2 different species in the same week i was ill prepared at first...Also didn't want to end up stressing the geo's out switching out the gravel with sand while they had a spawn either & i opt'd to keep them with the parents opposed to raising out of the tank...


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

CrypticLifeStyle said:


> peathenster said:
> 
> 
> > They are called "Orange head", not "red head".
> ...


If my posts came across as rude, that was not my intention. Some of my concerns were already expressed in earlier posts by others and I did not feel that you took them seriously. I am very happy that the breeding cons have their own tank now. The loner con may pick off some fry but probably won't harm the parents.

There seem to be two species of OHs, "Tapajos" and "Araguaia". The differences are relatively subtle - "Tapajos" have orange cheeks and shows orange/red on the top of the caudal peduncle, whereas "Araguaia" doesn't. Further arguments will probably involve the very definition of "species" and off-topic here.

The OHs will care for the babies for up to four weeks before they try to breed again. They will protect, herd, and even feed the babies during this period. The way they do it is just amazing - they pick up food, chew it, then spit it out for the babies to eat. It is extremely rewarding and fun to watch. But with gravel substrate this becomes so much more difficult - now you see, there are actually good reasons that they should be kept with sand substrates.....I understand and appreciate your concern about changing substrate at this point. I guess whenever possible.

The last point about names - I disagree that it's a personal preference. For your pets' nicknames, by all means. But in "conversations" with others perhaps one should make an effort to avoid confusions. Also, many species are named after people without whom we wouldn't have known this much about fish, so perhaps we should honor them.


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

CrypticLifeStyle said:


> Orange head, red head...That is actually quite arguable...Most people base this knowledge off a book published 9 years ago by Thomas Weidner...I've read both sides on the argument & still til this day whether they are the same or different has yet to be officially said t least from what i've read from many sources...What i do know is there's many variants of "orange heads" & true they are the same species, i'm leaning on the argument red heads and a few others are sub-species as "Orange Heads" are genus of the Geophagus species...Even til this day they are still finding more variants...
> 
> I've taken a lot of interest lately on the debate & from the Orange heads i've seen Orange heads tend to have the orange bleed over to the cheeks, and on the cheek area as well as the frontal portion of the head, while the "red heads" don't bleed there colors over to the cheek area, the coloration is confined to just the frontal portion of the face and head...Breeders have also noted differences on the 2 when it comes to brooding...So for now as mine matches what people consider "red heads" i'm going to refer to them as "red heads"...Hence un-described by science, nothing is actually official...At least from my understanding ?


I think you're confusing the "red" or "orange" as being a point of identification when it is not. I think what you're describing is _Geophagus_ sp. "TapajÃƒÂ³s Orange Head" vs. _Geophagus_ sp. "Araguaia Orange Head". In either case, Weidner used orange in the name, not red and that's the point people who argue for the name he used as proper. Regardless if the book is 9 years old, it's the first time they were in the literature.

The rampant use of "red" has caused many people to think _Geophagus_ sp. "Red Head" and _Geophagus_ sp. "Orange Head" are different fishes, when they are not. The river is the argument for the distinction, it has nothing to do with the specific color used in the name.

If we really want to be picky, the rivers name has to come first, and all words following the Genus have to be capitalized and parentheses aren't required.

But back to the actual thread, a 55 is too small for a group of _Geophagus_ and convicts are a not good choice of tankmates.


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

peathenster said:


> If my posts came across as rude, that was not my intention. Some of my concerns were already expressed in earlier posts by others and I did not feel that you took them seriously. I am very happy that the breeding cons have their own tank now. The loner con may pick off some fry but probably won't harm the parents.
> 
> There seem to be two species of OHs, "Tapajos" and "Araguaia". The differences are relatively subtle - "Tapajos" have orange cheeks and shows orange/red on the top of the caudal peduncle, whereas "Araguaia" doesn't. Further arguments will probably involve the very definition of "species" and off-topic here.
> 
> ...


Trust me I took them seriously...I had to, experienced advice will always be better suited then my own in-experience...Plus the expertise & knowledge base in these forums is what attracted me to become a member in the first place...This forum is by far the best Cichlid forum as well as the most active from what i've seen...I love this forum...

Yeah the concern of the loner female con came when i left half the con fry in the 55 for the Geo's to snack on & noticed she was snacking on them as well with no concern over them being of her own species, then the wider range of concerns came into play as like you mentioned her eating the Geo fry...As far as she goes i'm not quite sure what i'm going to do about her yet, but i am leaning towards finding her a new home, and possibly the loner male Geo as well which i'd hate to do, but when i start thinking of making things as less stressful as possible within my range of plausible solutions rehoming them seem to be the best solution added in it isn't in my best interests to keep building up more tanks right now being as i'm a single dad lol. I gotta keep myself in control financially...Which is why i'm also being a consumer on the 120 gallon & avoiding buying it new...

The substrate part i totally understand, and i do feel guilty it has been stalled as long as it has especially after seeing how much the Cons are enjoying their sand substrate...Before i started into Cichlids 2 months ago, there was a 2 year break since the last time i kept fish due to traveling...I kept mostly Clown Loaches, common & gold nugget pleco's, knife fish, elephant noses, tiger barbs, serptae tetra's, bleeding heart tetra's, blue & kissing guarimis & a bolivian ram. When i wanted to get back into the hobby 3 months ago one day i just took it all out of storage, cleaned it all up, and set things up to get the ball going...Got the tank cycled & decided to get into Cichlids as i always regretted not getting into them before...
Tank was cycled & a fellow forum member who lived close by was selling the Geo's & there was another party interested in them so i grabbed them to not let the opportunity pass me by, then next thing you know i was having babies so my original plans were thrown off course on the substrate due to a time crunch & a love shack week apparently in my tank with the 2 species...Also i was a bit unsure of what sand i wanted to go with & as odd as it is, at least to me being right outside of a major city, Boston i'm having the worse time finding a place that actually carries pool filter sand...I'm using caribsea agronite reef sand atm for the cons, but i'm really wanting to go with the pool filter sand in the 55 gallon as i can see a lot of headaches with the caribsea in the 55, so that too has played a role in things trying to actually locate a place that actually has it...Home Depot, lowes neither carry it where i am, only pool supply places around me seem to not have it or only sell to supply dealers...

I was really avoiding being rushed into things when i got back into the hobby but due to certain circumstances, situations & time constraints i got a bit pinned down on some things i was hoping to avoid :lol:

I understand where your coming from on the names thing...I'm big on respect, but in a public setting like this with such a mixture of much expertise & beginners alike, being less formal appeals to the majority & with less confusion so all can partake in the conversation not only limiting to just those that know the names scientifically but what can be commonly associated with of a more informal setting & subject interest...I know half the time i'm reading some of the posts on these forums i have to look up the scientific names that people are talking about in order to have an idea of what kind of fish it is, opposed to hearing a common name and automatically picturing the fish mentally as it's how i've remembered them by...Also i find it easier to associate information using common names opposed to the scientific names...No harm intended, just easier for a "newby" ...Part of the learning curve...One day i'll be dishing out the scientific names as well...lol



edburress said:


> I think you're confusing the "red" or "orange" as being a point of identification when it is not. I think what you're describing is _Geophagus_ sp. "TapajÃƒÂ³s Orange Head" vs. _Geophagus_ sp. "Araguaia Orange Head". In either case, Weidner used orange in the name, not red and that's the point people who argue for the name he used as proper. Regardless if the book is 9 years old, it's the first time they were in the literature.
> 
> The rampant use of "red" has caused many people to think _Geophagus_ sp. "Red Head" and _Geophagus_ sp. "Orange Head" are different fishes, when they are not. The river is the argument for the distinction, it has nothing to do with the specific color used in the name.
> 
> ...


You are correct and i stand corrected on that specific article on what variations that thread author was referring to...What gets me is after these past 9 years and the years prior to his publication as to why a lot of these species are still "undescribed" ...You would think the variations would be of official findings by now...Whats the hold up :lol:

But being said as they are the same species, what has created difference in coloring distinction between the orange & red? I came across another fish on this site under Geophagus as well, i forget the name of but it's also in the same family as the orange heads but has no color on the head, but the rest of the body coloration's are the same...What are the underlying circumstances that created these differences of the same species?

Yeah the 55 is temp housing. But as of now the dominant male is about 5" the other male is around the 4 1/2'' mark & the female is approaching 4'', the female con is maybe a inch. Weighing in the baby factor i hoping to think a 120 gallon would suffice as a habitat for either the paired Geo couple and some of their babys to live out in or the 3 of the current geos w/ some of the babies as well...

Which brings me to another question, lets say i went with the scenario of keeping all 3 Geo's that i have now, and went on to keep a few of the babies for myself as well, and the loner male Geo ended up breeding with one of the babys that turned out to be a female & they paired when she grew up, would there be any form of genetic entanglement under the impression the 3 i have now came from the same parents as well? Yes incest is the question...lol

My new data upload cord for my digital camera arrives tomorrow so i'll be able to post pics finally as i've been recording the events of everything since they transpired...Be a lot easier to point out & show it all...


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

a few quick suggestions:

1. Keep the extra male. They like to hang out as a group, and having extras actually makes the pair bond better and somehow motivates them to spawn.

2. It's difficult and stressful to change all the substrates at once. I once tried taking half of the gravels out and mixing in some sand. Not an even mix - lots more sand than gravels in some area, and almost exclusive gravels in other areas. It's very easy to do and gives the tank a more natural look.

3. Pool filter sand and play sand both work well. If you can't find them, wait. I somehow have the impression that agronite sand raises pH....I'm probably wrong but the point is to make sure it's the right sand...

Good luck with the fry!


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

CrypticLifeStyle said:


> What gets me is after these past 9 years and the years prior to his publication as to why a lot of these species are still "undescribed" ...You would think the variations would be of official findings by now...Whats the hold up :lol:


Well, when you considered it took about 35 years to formally describe the original green terror ...


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

dwarfpike said:


> CrypticLifeStyle said:
> 
> 
> > What gets me is after these past 9 years and the years prior to his publication as to why a lot of these species are still "undescribed" ...You would think the variations would be of official findings by now...Whats the hold up :lol:
> ...


lol thats just poor


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

Well here's a few photos of things...

This is the paired Geo's on guard duty watching over the eggs:





































Here's the Convict eggs guarded by mom when i first discovered them:










1 week old & first swim with the parents outside of the cave:



















Con babies @ 2 weeks of age with dad's eye always keeping a eye out:



















I'll upload some more with the new convict tank & the new look of the Geo tank now with sand in a bit


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

Well here's the 55 Geo tank with the new sand & a few bundles of live java moss placed around any possible spawning places. I ended up using a white pool filter sand i got for $10- per 50lb bag, only took maybe 30 min to clean 2 bags i purchased. Very satisfied i went with the pool filter sand route, the stuff is great & cheap...





































The Convicts current home in a 20L. There's a bunch of live java moss i havn't aquascaped yet as they love to bite me anytime i put my hand in the tank lol. The fry seem to love playing in it & eating it so it's worked out well...



















They've completely dug out a cave under the driftwood in the center.

Here's the make shift brine hatchery i made. It's isnt a site of beauty but it's functional for now:


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

tanks look great! =D>

impressive brine shrimp hatchery too - even with a lid!


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## hey_wood1981 (Apr 7, 2004)

The 55 looks much better. Shorten the filter intake a.s.a.p.! Your geos will spit that sand right into the intake, trashing the filter.


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

peathenster said:


> tanks look great! =D>
> 
> impressive brine shrimp hatchery too - even with a lid!


Thank you...Yeah, the lid comes handy with any evaporation or water spilling over from the water being air stoned...Think i'm going to make another one but bigger & with a drain valve from a 5 gall poland spring bottle...



hey_wood1981 said:


> The 55 looks much better. Shorten the filter intake a.s.a.p.! Your geos will spit that sand right into the intake, trashing the filter.


That came to mind but i opened the half way point enough where there wasn't enough suction power from the bottom to suck up the sand...This pool filter sand really works well, it just falls right back down...Think the name of it is called MYSTIC WHITE II Pool Filter Sand
http://www.u-s-silica.com/images/mysticbag2.jpg


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

The loner female con in the Geo tank laid around 100 egg's the other day (it never ends i tell ya)...With no male Con in the tank she hasn't shown any aggression towards the Geo's, she's always been very tolerable of the others...I'm guessing these wont mature enough however, as there's no males to fertilize them correct so they wont become anything? Also is it typical this time of year for most of these fish to spawn? I've noticed everyone around here & on Craiglist everyone's having babies these last few weeks...

Also side question, has any of you posted video's on here that are uploaded on photobucket w/o directly linking to your photobucket account? I tried but dosn't seem to work, only the link ever shows up or nothing @ all, or it shows as a still picture...


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

Never-mind about the egg's question...They turned white, answered my own question :lol:


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