# Thoughts on Albinos, Hybrids and line bred Peacocks



## james714 (May 31, 2009)

Just wanted to get some ideas of what people think of Albinos, Hybrids and line bred Peacocks and also on the Albino Electric Blues.

If you have some pictures to share, please post them up.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Well, there is a large probability that they are all hybrids in your list. Some are very attractive ornamental fish, the only problem is when they get bred back to the "normal" fish and pollute the lines.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'm looking for a slice of the lake so they don't interest me.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

james714 said:


> Just wanted to get some ideas of what people think of Albinos, Hybrids and line bred Peacocks and also on the Albino Electric Blues.
> 
> If you have some pictures to share, please post them up.


 Welcome to the forum. 
A single post to your username and this is the topic you selected? Interesting choice...

FWIW, I lump all of those you list into a simple category... pet fish, aka domestic cichlids.

For pictures, many of the common and recognized "breeds" have pictures in our profile section and of course you can browse through the unidentified section... plenty in there. 
Hope that helps.


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

Albinos are just a toss of the genetic ressesive dice. They do happen in the wild, but being rather obvious, don't tend to make it very long. In tanks, if you like the white with the creepy red eyes, thats fine with me, I personally don't.

As for hybrids- I don't have a problem with them in and of them selves, what I have a problem with is the irrisposibility of people who either call them something they are not or who indescriminately let them out into the general population. I also have a real problem with the poeple who create them just to sell them. Kind of like this fad of designer dogs.

Line bred fish to me personally is not a real issue. I show dogs and horse so line breeding is sort of a way of life for me. As long as it is done reasponsibly. But of course that is the hard part. It is quite easy for it to go all wonky. Just look at the bull dog and persian cats. They were so focused on the single trait, that they never stopped to look at what it was doing to health

I have a couple line bred peacocks, and while I like them for my all male display tank, I would not choose to breed them.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

For the purposes of a show tank, I don't have any problems with any of the above. Personally, I would not choose to stock hybrids or heavily line-bred fish in my tank because I place a high value on recreating nature - at least to the extent that it is possible in a 4 to 6 foot glass box.

For the purposes of breeding, breeding and selling albinos or line-bred fish is ok in my opinion so long as you clearly state that you are selling line-bred fish. I do not think it responsible to distribute hybrid fish because in most cases you can't know where that fish or its offspring will end up. It's kind of like planting a non-native plant (invasive species) in your backyard. This season, it may only be in your yard, but when its seeds disperse, next year it could be all over your neighborhood and nobody will know what it is or where it came from.

FYI this topic has been discussed more than a few times before. You can search for terms within the Malawi forum. Searching for hybrids or line-breeding should give you LOTS of opinions.


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## james714 (May 31, 2009)

Thank you all for all your opinions on the subject.

Personally, I am not an "albino" type of person either, however just wanted to see how many out there are really into albinos and such, because all of the sudden I had an interest on the Albino Eureka Reds, Albino Tropheus sp. and the Albino Electric Blues.


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## LaurenManzano (Aug 3, 2008)

Hey there,
I agree wit MalawiLover. We if you're breeding for specific traits as in color, fins, or albinism, you can call this line breeding. Is this really part of natural selection or you can say this happens naturally in the wild. In some cases, most of these unnatural traits that are bred in captivity wouldnâ€™t last in the wild. I particularly wouldnâ€™t want to keep fish that are line bred, you lose genetic diversity and much more. Albinism does occur but very rarely. As to hybrids, we as aquarists have a responsibility in keeping things as how they occur in the natural world. I keep several species of shell dwellers and I do not mix them because I enjoy seeing how they would look in the wild even though they are tank raised. Iâ€™ve seen soo many cases because we want to control our environment AKA introduction of invasive species itâ€™s just another way we like to play Imperial Creator (GOD).

Here's a great article about genetic diversification, section: GOOD BREEDING MATTERS, from the Calgary Aquarium Society:

As stocks of wild-caught cichlids dwindle from habitat extinction, it becomes more important to maintain breeding stocks in captive populations. One problem is the loss of genetic diversity in captive stocks, and the accumulation of defective or sickly individuals. This is often blamed unfairly on inbreeding, but aquarists should realize that inbreeding is neutral. The reason that it gets blamed is because those doing the inbreeding fail to cull out the inadequate fry. Lethal or sub- lethal traits then accumulate, and the problem is then unjustifiably said to be â€˜inbred fishâ€™. All breeds of domesticated animals, whether they be Charolais cattle, German shepherds, or roller canaries, were initially established by inbreeding for desired traits. Unfortunately, too many fish breeders can sell whatever they produce no matter what garbage the fish are, which is why you see parrot cichlids and crick-back goldfish in pet stores. But it is not the fault of inbreeding per se, just the failure to select and cull.

Decline in genetic diversity is a more serious problem. It should be understood that low genetic diversity does not mean subnormal quality. Animals in a low-diversity population can be quite healthy and vigorous. However, when the environment changes, or a new disease sweeps through, high genetic diversity allows the species to survive no matter how great the mortality rate. Random variability of the genes ensures that at least a few of the individuals happened to have resistance.

In the aquarium hobby, it is therefore important to maintain high genetic diversity within a species population. The average aquarist cannot maintain large stocks of a species, though. This eliminates the idea of keeping genetic diversity high by the brute-force method of having thousand of cross-breeding individuals. Zoos get around this problem by regularly exchanging individual animals between themselves to keep the genes flowing between sub-populations.

A recent study on haplochromines out of Lake Victoria, carried out at the Ohio State University, showed that the best procedure to keep a cichlid population diverse is to periodically remove dominant males and to maintain more sub-populations [6]. Removing a dominant male after he has bred a few times will allow another male to get a chance to spread his genes about. Sub-populations are subject to random mutation of genes, which then have a better chance of establishing instead of being swamped in one large population.

Genetic diversity doesnâ€™t just mean color patterns or shape. It also means resistance to disease or environmental shock. Behaviour is known to be an inheritable trait. There are many other traits invisible to the aquarist but which have a very real impact on the population.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Even if pure, the albino look creeps me out. Just not a favorite.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

my lfs has a beautiful albino taiwan reef, if you saw it you might like albinos lol, but i wouldn't choose albinos to breed as some have said, some make great show tanks though

i don't remember the eyes being that red, but the body is white and still has the yellow tint to it and the orange anal fin, gorgeous fish


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

The problem is, how do you know it is pure? Unless you had albino's from a known wild lineage stock, you wouldn't know it is pure.

Many of the albinos are known to be hybrids, and the rest I'm sceptical on. As ornamental fish, no issues. When we start selling albino "siblings" and mix them in with normal coloured fish, we've risked ruining the domestic strains.


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## Wayne Quinn (Jan 24, 2008)

For myself, I have no issues with OB, Albino, or line bred fish, they make incredible show fish. I don't believe in mass production of these sorts, but I personally have spent a great amount of time in creating a unique gene for my show tank, using all the fry as feeder fish that derive from this species. I call it an OB Red Empress, it does breed true empress being have been bred back over 9 times, and the OB is standard now. The genetic make-up is virtually identical to a standard Taenilotus in every form, with the blue spotting coming at a later stage in their maturity. As fry (.5-1.5 inch) you wouldn't know they are OB until the coloring starts. I submitted a picture into the Nov Contest, finished 3rd, have a peek and see what I mean. The show fish side of it is absolutely incredible, as for reproducing for sale, not going to happen, but I do desire 4-5 more males for the 220 show tank, so some breeding will come of this until I get those males, the other fry is snacks for the frontosa, if they don't get eaten, then they will be humanely euthanized to prevent them from being able to grow or bred. the adult females are from my true empress line which throw 8-10 ob from each brood, and the rest, typically 20+ others are standard when grown to 1.5" and get culled in one form or another. As said before, its not morally wrong to want them, but its the responsibility of the breeder to prevent them from taking over our hobby.

http://theexoticfish.com/download/file.php?id=4581

that is not a spam link, but a good picture of the male OB Empress


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Wayne Quinn said:


> For myself, I have no issues with OB, Albino, or line bred fish, they make incredible show fish. I don't believe in mass production of these sorts, but I personally have spent a great amount of time in creating a unique gene for my show tank, using all the fry as feeder fish that derive from this species. I call it an OB Red Empress, it does breed true empress being have been bred back over 9 times, and the OB is standard now. The genetic make-up is virtually identical to a standard Taenilotus in every form, with the blue spotting coming at a later stage in their maturity. As fry (.5-1.5 inch) you wouldn't know they are OB until the coloring starts. I submitted a picture into the Nov Contest, finished 3rd, have a peek and see what I mean. The show fish side of it is absolutely incredible, as for reproducing for sale, not going to happen, but I do desire 4-5 more males for the 220 show tank, so some breeding will come of this until I get those males, the other fry is snacks for the frontosa, if they don't get eaten, then they will be humanely euthanized to prevent them from being able to grow or bred. the adult females are from my true empress line which throw 8-10 ob from each brood, and the rest, typically 20+ others are standard when grown to 1.5" and get culled in one form or another. As said before, its not morally wrong to want them, but its the responsibility of the breeder to prevent them from taking over our hobby.
> 
> http://Spammer please report to moderators.com/download/file.php?id=4581
> 
> that is not a spam link, but a good picture of the male OB Empress


IMHO, this is a grand disservice to the hobby overall. Sure, they make a nice ornamental fish, and are very attractive.

The genetic makeup is not "nearly" identical to a standard taeniolatus, no matter how you spin it. You've taken a Red Empress, and crossed it with OB Peacocks, and bred the strain from there. It is a hybrid, not a Red Empress, and it shouldn't be presented as such. The closest accurate and honest presentation of this fish should be OB Peacock x Red Empress hybrid.

Perhaps you are acting responsible in your culling of the OB Peacock x Red Empress crosses, but if these hybrids make it outside your front door, others will not, and then they will get mixed and ruin the Red Empress strain in the hobby. It has happened with other species.

Accurate and honest portrayal of this fish would be a good first step here.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Ok, in the photo contest I note that you state you didn't use OB Peacocks to hybridize these. What did you hybridize it with? That is how it should be presented.


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## Wayne Quinn (Jan 24, 2008)

No it was not a Peacock. The original cross came initially from a Thumbi Is Trewavasae. When in reference to breeds true, its stated solely that it will throw fry consistantly that represent the breeding male and female. It is however, still a hybrid.

I will, upon having similar sized fry at the same time, place 2-3 of each into a tank together so I can point out the genetic likeness of both lines. Until 1+", though well experienced in rearing fry, can't tell them apart until the blossom becomes apparent.

As far as "labeling" the species as a hybrid, I, and call me ignorant here if need be, thought that OB in the front of Red Empress labeled this as a hybrid as this is something that will not under normal circumstances happen in the natural habitats of Lake Malawi. The Dominant Gene is P.Taenilotus, the OB is evident, and having been bred back repeatedly, this has strengthened the gene, thus naming its as such, and OB Red Empress. there has Been no cross into any other genetics since the initial, and only been line bred back to make it more domineering. I think the end result does speak for itself.


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## Wayne Quinn (Jan 24, 2008)

and my apologies on the link then, I wasn't aware of this issue with the other website.


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## firenzena (Nov 29, 2009)

I have kept an accidental spawning of Aulonocara Sp. Rubescens with A species Maleri.

Would this union be best described as:

Hybrid, or outcrossing, particularly if I reintroduced a different Rubescens male to mate with selected fish of first spawn.
But I would always keep this experiment separate from the population of initial union.

Is Rubescens a hybrid?

I have no real issue with any union of any 2 fish as long as they are responsibly notated as such and not misrepresented.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

rubescens is a man made fish, with unknown origins.

A rubescens and maleri breeding would result in hybrids.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Wayne Quinn said:


> As far as "labeling" the species as a hybrid, I, and call me ignorant here if need be, thought that OB in the front of Red Empress labeled this as a hybrid as this is something that will not under normal circumstances happen in the natural habitats of Lake Malawi. The Dominant Gene is P.Taenilotus, the OB is evident, and having been bred back repeatedly, this has strengthened the gene, thus naming its as such, and OB Red Empress. there has Been no cross into any other genetics since the initial, and only been line bred back to make it more domineering. I think the end result does speak for itself.


The problem is that there are MANY people who do not realize there is no OB genetics in Haplochromines of Lake Malawi, including Red Empress. (I'd argue that except for a limited number of devoted hobbyists, most are unaware) In the event of an "OB Red Empress hybrid" sibling gets out, that looks like a normal Red Empress, many people would wrongfully assume it could be bred with regular Red Empress, and distributed as a Red Empress.


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## firenzena (Nov 29, 2009)

Fogelhund said:


> rubescens is a man made fish, with unknown origins.
> 
> A rubescens and maleri breeding would result in hybrids.


My understanding is that Rubescens is line bred from Maleri initially done in Germany by Peter Rubins hence the name. German Red is more specific as they designate the locational variant of Maleri

That was sort of the point of the post.
German reds, Eurekas and Rubescens are given titles and while not occurring naturally in the lake 
do they not hold the same basic DNA Makeup as the fish they were initially line bred from?

So would MaleriX Rubescens be hybrid given they hold the same gene if not the same colouration.

I


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

firenzena said:


> My understanding is that Rubescens is line bred from Maleri initially done in Germany by Peter Rubins hence the name. German Red is more specific as they designate the locational variant of Maleri


Maybe... the origins really are unknown, though some have theorized that "might" be true.



> That was sort of the point of the post.
> German reds, Eurekas and Rubescens are given titles and while not occurring naturally in the lake
> do they not hold the same basic DNA Makeup as the fish they were initially line bred from?
> 
> ...


No, they have been line bred or potentially hybridized. Even if they were simply line bred, it was done so to create different characteristics. This would be akin to different geographical variants essentially. If they did breed, what would you call them?


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## firenzena (Nov 29, 2009)

Aulonocara sp. "Firenzena' LOL.

No of course I wouldn't call them anything.
What I was endeavouring to comment or illustrate was that responsible line breeding, or outcrossing, or hybridizing in an artificial envirionment is in as much mirroring what would happen in the natural environment.

That this in itself has lead to variants in the lake.
If an open water space that has seperated related species over time is bridged by one or more individuals then are the resulting fry of unions of those fish hybrids?
In the wild then a new variant is born. In the tank it is a hybrid?
The fact that its name is latin for you and me and not a outcrop of rock should make a
difference?

The term hybrid seems to have differing connotations to many, and many times it is negative.
I quite like the idea of hybridisation under controlled situations and when they are selectively bred. 
Intent is key to the discussion.
Its the resulting random fry that emerge from "community" tanks where 50% of parentage is a guess that I like many cringe at.

Even if the origin is unknown the likes of Rubescens have made a place for themselves in the hobby.

If by chance after a few generations my combination results in a Rubescen coloured fish that is more inclined to colour up in a community peacock situation would it find favour?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

There is very little evidence to support any idea that speciation occurs through hybridization though. With our ability to check DNA sequencing, very few fish have been found to occur due to hybridization. There are a couple, but none that I know of in Lake Malawi. Now hybridization does occur in the lake, but it doesn't seem to result in "new variants".

The colour doesn't make your fish less desirable, in fact it is a fantastic looking fish. I just am pedantic when it comes to accurate labeling and representation.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

firenzena said:


> What I was endeavouring to comment or illustrate was that responsible line breeding, or outcrossing, or hybridizing in an artificial envirionment is in as much mirroring what would happen in the natural environment.


 I am certainly not anti-hybrid, but I do challenge this suggestion completely. In the wild, we have natural pressures that drives the most advantageous design for the cichlid. 
In captivity, we have the whims of man that will drive what lives, and what does not. How can we view man's whims as equivalent to the fascinating drive behind evolution?


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## firenzena (Nov 29, 2009)

firenzena said:


> Intent is key to the discussion


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*firenzena*
What are you suggesting?

How will the owner's intent change things? 
One cannot possibly breed for fitness in the natural setting unless there is some group of omnipotent cichlid owners out there who know all the selective forces at play on wild fish and can copy them...

So you must mean something else when you say intent is the key.


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## firenzena (Nov 29, 2009)

Is the intent to deceive

If I were to hybridise, cross breed, outcross, or line breed and try to pass the offspring as something they are not. eg a pure strain of a particular species then I believe that would be wrong.

If I were trying to mirror something it is a facsimile is it not?
Call a spade a spade

Nor would I ID off the net a fish whose history I know nothing of as a "probable" something
At that end of the day if I were to create a beautiful fish that fits into the hobby and it is ID'd as what it is then I have no issue with it

The Thread title is " Thoughts on Albinos, hybrids, and line bred peacocks"

If it was " Do you think hybrids, albinos, linebreeds are better and should replace 
naturally occuring species in the hobby" then my thoughts would different.

I would love to have a group of F0 examples in my tank and would do everything to preserve them.
How sustanible is that practise.

You extract a Group of F0 from the lake then the moment you do you are playing the omnipotent role you speak of in terms of natural selection, to both the ones you import to captivity and to the ones left behind.

You select the males and females you wish to breed from?

I agree leaving the lake and fish alone with no selective catching for the industry would be the purist form of natural forces of which you mention.

But again that isn't the question posed in this thread.

I understand that the whole hybrid issue is a hot potato, and there are polarity of thoughts,
but think the market will dictate the place of such fish and their value, but doesn't discount the merits of such disscussion.

I like this thread.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

if you want to breed to distribute just do your best to get wc's and you shouldn't have issues :thumb:


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