# Tetra Safe Start failed me when adding fish



## joeyo (Jul 2, 2012)

Hey there!

Need some help if possible as I rushed the cycling process. 
I had the 220G tank running for a few weeks trying to resolve leaks, sand storm issues and finally I was able to get those issues resolved. I did a final cleaning of my sump tank and bio-balls and such and read up on doing the Safe start plus with fish option to get my tank going. I purchased six = two inch Placidochromis sp. Jalo's, three - Synodontis catfish and three pleco's. I added Safe Start 2 hours prior to adding these fish into my 220 gallon tank and in two days, four of the six Jalo's died. The cats and pleco's are fine. Two I had witnessed - when I turned on the light, they freaked, and went stiff. The water readings were 0 ammonia, 0 Nitrate, 0 Nitrite and pH is 8.2. Temp is 80 and I took a sample of water into my lfs just to ensure I was testing the water correctly. They received the same results that I pulled.

I initially added 4 bottles of Safe Start hoping to fast track the cycle process as they outline with fish. These 12 in total fish were likely unable to add much impact in a 220G tank as far as overloading it with ammonia in this two day period, but I'm stumped. Did they die of shock (New Tank Syndrome)? My new and very concerning challenge is that I have an order for 30+ fish coming in tomorrow and have two additional bottles of Safe Start Plus, but I am kicking myself for putting myself in this situation.

Any suggestions? Should I do a partial water change, even though Safe Start is against doing a water change at the start of a Safe Start Cycle? I picked up two 4" Yellow Labs tonight they entered in fine, but Should I get more Safe Start - I do not know if you can add too much. 

please let me know if you can help. :-?

Thanks, Joe


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## joeyo (Jul 2, 2012)

I should have rethought my title to say - I failed my fish, not the product! User error was the issue. 
Sorry for mentioning a brand name, I'm definitely not bashing the Mfr.

Thanks again.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Lots of possible scenarios to consider. I'll start with two. How was the leak resolved? Was the silicone recently replaced? The correct type of silicone for aquariums produces acetic acid as it cures. Breathing those fumes is very hazardous to humans and other creatures. If filled while the acetic acid is still being produced, it could lower the pH, perhaps below optimum for rift lake cichlids. The type II silicones produce ammonia instead of acetic acid, making them safer for humans since we tend to regard the acetic acid with its vinegar like smell as innocuous, but instantly realize ammonia as a danger. This type of silicone is not suitable for aquariums. It does not reach the final strength of type I. The ammonia can end up in the tank water and be too concentrated for normal tank start up procedures to deal with.

A product like Prime that detoxifies ammonia would be good to have on hand when new livestock arrives. Don't add any of the shipping water to the aquarium. it can be high in ammonia and carbon dioxide excreted by the fish in transit and perhaps contain pathogens. I try to add female cichlids first and let them adapt to the tank before adding mature males.


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## joeyo (Jul 2, 2012)

Thanks for the information. I initially used GE Type 1 on the back of the 3D background and then DAP 100% Silicon on the left & right seams (to the glass) of the the 3D background. From what the lable on the DAP product states - there is no mold guard additives and I also read that that cheaper brand also did not have mold guard. That all cured over two weeks before water went into the tank. So i think I am past that issue of it possibly leaching in the water.

On my most recent water change (before any fish were added, I was battling a sand issue where particulate matter was not visible, but still clouding the water. Water changes and a good cleaning of the sump and bio-balls addressed that. However, when I added the three 8 ounce Tetra Safe Start bottles and about two hours later added the 12 fish (3 Plecos and 3 synodontis cats and 6 jalo's. Slowly each of the Jalo's perished due to some level of shock. I have one Jalo left (the cats and plecos are bullet proof) as of this morning and as I mentioned I also took delivery today of 46 new cichlids, averaging 2" with a few about 1 3/4". I made certain to only put the fish in the tank and none of the transporting water. They were packaged very well - (live fish direct in UT). I also added two additional 8 ounce bottles of Tetra Safe Start to aid in seeding the tank, in the event the original dose was ineffective.

I waited about six hours and used my API freshwater master test kit + their GH & KH additional test kit. KH was 17, GH was 5, pH 8.4, nH3/nH4 was 0, NO2 was 0 and NO3 was also 0. I do have Prime, but did not use it yet. I was stumped in researching if its good or bad with trying to cycle with fish and Safe Start. In the tank, I have two returns, one at each end and I also added a wave maker at the bottom to move the water at the bottom. Unfortunate for me, that created a new sand storm, so I adjusted it, but the problem of clarity is back. I'm going to monitor the water ranges this week at 2x per day. I will try and maintain discipline and not do a water change as is recommended by Tetra, unless of course the Nitrate and Ammonia spike. I'm honestly surprised that everything is reading zero. 220G is a lot of water, so this might take a bit more time to start seeing some readings as I am certain they will come. Right now, my goal is to keep these guys alive and not stress them any more (after their travels). I'm only using the room lights to illuminate the tank, no LED's for a day or so. I fed them this evening and they did eat (NorthFin 1mm). Activity seems normal, most swimming across the bottom, but looking active and normal.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I killed an entire tank using the wrong silicone...if you use one with "bio-safe" it will never stop leaching.

I had to drain/dry the tank, scrape off all the silicone used to install the 3D background, scrape the glass, wash and start over with new aquarium safe silicone.

Then...no problems at all.


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## joeyo (Jul 2, 2012)

Quick update on the tank, water levels and vibe.

First off, thank you for responding to my questions, I think the support is great, even when I make bone head decisions, judgment is not passed. 
; - )

Water parameters are 0's pH same 8.4. I added 3 plants, about 12" tall, also added four large pieces of spider wood. Plants and spider wood are just floating at the top. The said about 10 days before it would sink. 
The fish appear healthy, actively swimming around, and eating well. 
I am stumped that I'm not getting readings yet.

Any suggestions?

Thanks, Joe


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## joeyo (Jul 2, 2012)

Lost 10 fish today, as a result of this, I did a 30% water change and also added Chemi pure. Went to the LFS and explained my situation and also brought them a sample of my tank water. Water tests out fine. I witnessed some swimming prior to their death, one swam in circles, another dove head first into the sand and others I found randomly today. Sad day for sure.

Thoughts?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Do you think you might have a silicone problem? It does not show up on any tests.


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## joeyo (Jul 2, 2012)

Hey DJ, I just reviewed the timeline on my overall build - this fourm is like my progress journal!

Stages:
Plumbing
I used Oatey products, clear primer, purple primer and their pvc glue. I even removed the excess goop around the bonded edges internally, where I could reach. In a few areas I used their liquid thread compound vs.Teflon tape. That paste has Teflon in it, worked very well.

3D Background
I used GE #1 Silicone for the main job for sticking the 3D background on to the glass. That cured for over 3 days, dry no substrate. 
I later bought DAP 100% silicone to do the left and right sides of the glass, most likely that following day. So if there is a silicone issue, it would be the easy to remove those DAP silicone side strips. I read that DAP 100% silicone did not have anti mold additive in it and tried to save a couple bucks. 
When I filled the tank at this stage, water was very clear. Just 3D background and no PFS substrate.

Substrate 
All-Star Pool Filter Sand, purchased from Menard's. Because I had not rinsed it, I had to do about 7 tank water changes, over 3/4 and two were 7/8th, as I was trying to rid the sand storm & milky colored water. Great lesson in "don't believe everything you read" - that PFS is pretty clean straight from the bag!

I had the tank in testing operation for about a week and a full month since silicone was used for the 3D background. All heaters and filters were running well so on Dec 3rd, water was still milky but decent. I used Prime, couple hours later added 3 bottles of Tetra Safe Start, raised the temp to 80F then added the 12 initial fish. Plecos, Synodontis cats and six Jalo's. The Jalo's all died within a few days. The Plecos and Synodontis are (still) doing well, but I think they can survive about anything. The recent 10 that perished, were all new.

I'm pretty bummed as work is insane at year end. I purchased Chemi Pure, threw it in the sump, I'm out all day today so can't do anything till Saturday or Sunday.

I'll likely remove the remaining fish, place them in a 10 gallon hospital tank,which also concerns me. New tap water (not tank water) with Prime and an airrater? Hope for the best!

Adjustments:
Strip off the DAP silicone on the left and right sides, replace with GE #1 
Rinse the sand more in small buckets. 
Re-start but go fishless cycle?

Thoughts please.

Thanks, Joe


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

I would not use any primer, purple or clear. You are not dealing with a high pressure hot temperature pipeline. You don't need primer and although nontoxic, it is adding one more chemical to the stew. Ditto for the Teflon tape and thread compound. There may not be a silicone issue in the tank but I would suspect the total background and the sand.

Pool filter sand can contain additives designed to keep life forms out of the swimming pool. You have to be careful which one you select, and since they don't need to support animal or plant life, the manufacturer has the option of not revealing all that is in the product.

If you see oils and scum on the water surface, besides being unwanted chemicals, they may also block the air/water interface preventing the exchange of carbon dioxide and oxygen. That could result in not enough oxygen for the fish and too much carbon dioxide. They might originate from both the sand and the structures in the tank. Air stones may help break them up and allow the filters to capture them to an extent.

A skimmer and a sump for the tank would help dilute and remove chemicals being leached from sand and structure. I would first put in several air stones and then consider the skimmer and sump. If you can remote plumb (run pipes to and from it) the sump, a 100 to 300 gallon Rubbermaid livestock watering tank is about a buck a gallon on sale. I have seen them placed in closets, storage rooms, basements, and garages.


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## joeyo (Jul 2, 2012)

Came home last night, lost more fish, however, the Chemi Pure has really cleared the cloudiness away, still needs more time, but it's impressive. Also expensive!

Readings are still zero. But I can now smell the "aquarium water" smell, so cycling has to be starting. That smell is a normal good aquarium smell.

Thought a lot about this build. Very torn, and disappointed with my decision to fast track cycling the tank. Pretty confident that plumbing (primer/glue) is not the issue.

The silicone caulk was cured and if we're even talking ppm's,the DAP caulk, which is in question here, is only 40" in total, 1/4" wide and had cured. Any leaching would not destroy fish so quickly from that little amount in a 220 gallon aquarium with a 48x15x15 wet dry sump & a Fluval SP6 Pump. Not a scientist, just trying to be practical here while supporting logic processes.

It's got to be the lack of good bacteria in the water. Fish are flashing, scratching in the sand etc. Damage is done. I made the decision to to use Safe Start,it's hit or miss at that point. Cycling took longer than fish could handle. Lesson learned. Fish can handle the turbulence of mother nature, but not the impatience of man. Really appreciate everyone's support and suggestions.

This is a great but humbling hobby isn't it!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I am not saying it is the silicone. But just so you/other readers do not get the wrong impression...it's not a matter of curing if it has the mold (or other) additive. That will leach into the tank forever. My tank was 125G and the fish died just as quickly.

If the good bacteria were the problem, you would see ammonia and/or nitrite so you would be able to confirm the source of the problem.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

I can't let a myth get past unremarked. There are no good (cycle) bacteria in the water. They are thigmotrophic, as tightly attached as a paint film to surfaces in the tank and filter media.


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## joeyo (Jul 2, 2012)

Quick update on the status of the tank. I've been doing water changes every other day. My readings show ammonia and nitrate only, nitrite has always shown zero. Trying to feed only 1x per day. Still seeing flashing from a few fish, but no deaths since last week. Water has been clear but has a consistent haze even after water changes. My spider wood is growing some white hair algae. I'm going to reduce the amount of hours I use the led lighting per day.

Really bummed about the amount of money I've dumped into Safestart, I feel like I am doing a fish in cycle and no benefits from Safestart, total waste of money.

Today marks my second full week with a stocked 220G tank. Fish seem to be adjusting, claiming territory, seeking dominance within species. I have five 1 3/4" yellow labs and two have been swimming in circles chasing each other, one has gotten so much black across his whole body as I believe he is loosing the dominance battle. No nips in his fins, just chasing. I always thought they were the peaceful ones. I've witnessed my yellow tail acei doing the dance, they are about 2 1/4" so surprised to see that so soon. Otherwise everything is going well. Just staying on top of the water changes every other day, 30% & a couple 50% when I was cleaning the poop on top of the sand.

Thanks, Joe


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## Pdxmonkeyboy (Oct 17, 2016)

nitrite is always the last to show and it takes longer. typically it's a week or two from when ammonia starts dropping to zero. Glad that the fish are not croaking anymore. Keep up on the water changes!!


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Pdxmonkeyboy said:


> nitrite is always the last to show and it takes longer. typically it's a week or two from when ammonia starts dropping to zero. Glad that the fish are not croaking anymore. Keep up on the water changes!!


 It's not at all typical for nitrite to "show" last. Ammonia is first converted to nitrite and then nitrite is converted to nitrate as the different cycle microbes use each type of molecule as an energy source. For nitrite to appear last in tests, either there was an error in testing or there would have to be a huge flourishing population of microbes that use nitrite as their energy source. That way nitrite would be converted so fast it would not show up in tests. Then something would have to change in the tank to kill off the microbes that were so successful. Could this be a typo? Could nitrate have been intended?


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## joeyo (Jul 2, 2012)

As a continued effort to keep everyone updated on my tanks progress, I wanted to add a picture of the tank. I am still cycling, and currently have a bacteria bloom, still continuing to do water changes every other day. I did a big clean up yesterday as I noticed there were two fish that had managed to die behind the 3d background. When I moved the tank to see what else was going on back there, I noticed lots of waste had built up across the bottom lip of the background. Because its 3D, it was not practicle to silicone the bottom lip, so I just buried/covered it with sand. Well now I know, Its going to be part of the cleaning process, joy joy!



Enjoy!


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