# Randon deaths in large 180 - seemingly healthy fish?



## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

So I have a 180 with about - 30 or so mixed fish (mbuna) in it.

Met dolphin
Labs
Acei
Rusties
Green Afras
4 syno cats
Met. OB callainos

And everyone once in a while, say - monthly or so - I will find a dead fish. Last month it was a Rusty. Before that it was a Lab. Today it was one of my F1 met. Callainos OB.

These are seemingly healthy fish. The water is on an Auto change set up. Paramaters are all within excellent levels. Teh fish breed (Even had my fist spawn of met. Dolphin this week)

So what gives? Is it stress? I dont see bloat signs. It starts to bother me when i lose hard to find fish that arent breeding regularly for replacements.

Could it be stress of some kind? I have to many Met. Dolphin males. they tend to be annoying to the other fish in the tank. Plenty of rocks though


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## workharddieproud (Nov 7, 2013)

I think truth be known, allot of fish keepers lose fish from time to time. It is heart breaking and certainly un-explainable if your certain you have good water quality, parameters and feeding habits. I have had it happen, a matter of fact, this past Saturday I purchased 3 from a guy that breeds them and the 3 I purchased were all at least 4" in size. Got them home and in the tank, within 8 hours the largest of the 3 died???? I have purchased my cichlids from at least 9 different places and have had nothing but males and different sizes. My Yellow Lab that I still have is my first fish out of a batch 3 that I purchased IS STILL LIVING, has out lasted many others. Soooooo, Who Know's?? I certainly don't and don't think NO one can give a 100 percent proof positive explanation.


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

The only fish I've not lost any of are my acei. the first 6 cichldis I ever bought 3 years ago.

Go figure that one out.


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## typie88 (Jan 10, 2015)

I ve had the same thing happen recently also. Does anyone know 8 moving them to my tank would stress them to not eat and die?


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

Borsig said:


> So I have a 180 with about - 30 or so mixed fish (mbuna) in it.
> 
> Met dolphin
> Labs
> ...


Do you spend time on a regular basis observing their behaviour?
Maybe something is not right with your auto water change?
You should test for ph, gh, kh, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate with fresh test kits to rule all those out. Don't assume that they are in spec because sh1t happens even to the most advanced aquarist.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Anyone who seems healthy but spends some time lurking under the surface or behind a heater or filter intake?


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

test kits are in date - all paramaters in spec.

No one really hides between intakes, etc in my tank. Only rarely - its so large there are plenty of hiding spots. My point is, everyone is eating, normal, then once a month or 6 weeks or so - dead fish. *** had 3 die in the last 2 months, I think.

Truth be told I think its the Met. Dolphins bullying other fish.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Bloat will do that...take a fish once/month. But usually the sick fish stops eating the last day or two and lurks...at least occasionally before he just dies. Bullying will enable bloat. Any clear/white thread feces?

IME the sick/harassed fish do not take advantage of the hiding spots 24/7 no matter how many there are.


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

I dont really see it..

If it IS bloat - this is a 180 with many fish.

Course of action?


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

treat whole tank? Thats alot of water / space / fish etc...

Id do it to be safe if thats the course? I have clout on hand....


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

I'd be hesitant to treat such a large tank without a very clear diagnosis. Clout is a strong med. You might try removing some of the extra M. Dolphin males just in case that is part of the problem.

One thing that you can check is if everyone is eating - make sure nobody is mouthing the food and then spitting it out. And see if there are any fish being bullied to the point where they spend a lot of time in the top 4 inches of the tank (when you're not feeding them).


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

that was my thing- I have so many rocks. its nearly impossible tell if one of 30 fish isnt eating.

I will try and remove two of the met dolphin males. I really have no place for them. looks like they will have to get stuffed into a 20L with a divider.


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

Another dead mallainos OB this afternon.

*** had it - now Im pissed. I liked these fish. Alot.

Whole **** system gets clout and 2 met dolphins are getting booted.

I've had it. If it kills everything so freakin be it. Im sick of them dying one at a time.

The dolphins can death match it out in the 20L hospital for all I care. Im sick to death of losing my fish


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Sorry to hear your troubles.

I've used clout in the past, but I was certain that I had a case of bloat. It can be difficult to monitor feeding when it's a whirlwind of activity, but a fish that is not eating is usually pretty easy to spot. It may show intense initial interest, but after it realizes it cannot actually feed, it will move away from the rest and somewhat 'sulk.' If not noticed at this stage, it's easy to see a fish who has zero interest in food, as it won't be 'excited' and may even head for a dark spot in the tank. Sometimes, a fish will seemingly eat and gobble up several pellets/mouthful of flake and then hold it in their mouth. I've observed this with a particular fish for almost 10 minutes, before it spew all the food out which was then eaten by the rest of the fish.

Removing extra males could do it. But I think I would dose their food with metronidazole for a couple weeks before treating the whole tank with clout. You really don't have any symptoms at this time, correct? Dosing food is a lot easier than treating a tank. Like kanorin said, clout is a strong med and will turn your clear silicone blue. Metro will not cause any harm, and could be looked at as a preventative measure.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

I would bite the bullet and order a bulk size Metro powder and treat the whole tank. Losing all you fish one by one will cost more than medicating the whole tank. In the meantime, you need to figure out what is causing the stress. You really need to take the time to obverse the tanks as much as possible.


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## workharddieproud (Nov 7, 2013)

What are you feeding habits? What all do you exactly feed? Feed all your fish the same food? Do you know what diet they all have, herbivore, omnivore or carnivore?? Feeding in MY opinion plays a big part in bloat and deaths. Bloat is not always easy to spot and harder with more fish in a tank.


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

Nls and spirulina. I usually feel like im not feeding enough.

I tried metro soaked food last night. Tonight 3 met dolphin males will be pulled and put in a 20l. Its not cycled. its the best I have. Its set up with dividers but will requie alot of water changes .


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Pull some media from your existing filtration and place it in a HOB for the 20 long.


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

Yep that was my plan. *** put a spare ac 110 on it. Will have some matrix from my sump and a few pot scrubs in it. Won't be perfect but it will be seeded.

The metria. Dolphins I am finding are very territorial fish. We like them, but I think they are a bad idea and they never breed. Im thinking of selling the f1 group I have and going with something more fun. All this fish do is fight and chase.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

Borsig said:


> Nls and spirulina. I usually feel like im not feeding enough.
> 
> I tried metro soaked food last night. Tonight 3 met dolphin males will be pulled and put in a 20l. Its not cycled. its the best I have. Its set up with dividers but will requie alot of water changes .


You know, I will probably get flamed for what I'm about to write but I have struggled in the past with bloat and other issues while feeding NLS. I am probably the only guy on this forum that does not like it. I replaced NLS with Hikari Cichlid Excel and could not be happier. I'm just saying.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I know everyone is leaning towards a possible bloat issue, but I'm not sure Borsig has any real symptoms.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

He may or may not have symptoms...he can't observe them because he has too many fish. Moving the aggressors is not a bad idea at this point though.


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

found one of a couple blue zebras that I had, (that came mixed in with my callainos OB) acting strangely in one of the corners where fish go to die.I actualy thought he was dead at first. Pulled him, put him in hospital with clout treatment (last night).

At the same time, my well pump broke (stress overload here - fish, well pumps, etc) so I havent been able to work with the tanks.

He looked to have bloat symptoms however I have not had time to observe him for white stringy feces.

ETA - just looked and he has white stringy feces.

It's bloat. But WHY? I feed NLS, do not overfeed, paramaters are fine?

Now do I clout the 180? Or do I try feeding metronidazole soaked food......


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

Also Im thinking about throwing this NLS in the trash. Should I just feed spirulina and ditch the NLS? Im confused as to why I HAVE bloat when I do evertything I can to prevent it, due to fear if it.

It seems there is no way to avoid it.

Im strongly considering shocking the tank with clout.


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## chopsteeks (Jul 23, 2013)

Do not throw the NLS away. Hold off feeding the fish with NLS for now. Spirulina flakes will help with digestive issues.

Have you used Epsom Salt in combo with Metro or Clout ? I find Epsom salt very effective in combatting bloat. I dose 1 tbsp. per 10 gallons.

I believe it is aggression that has caused this issue and not your ways of feeding the fish. It is at times tough to single out the aggressors as lots of aggression and fighting happen when you are not there to observe them. In fact aggression and fighting will cease when they see you. But taking out the known aggressors is a great start.


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

In essence, it sounds like you are losing them to bloat. Something is stressing them to get them to that point, and that can include many factors. Removing the ones you suspect can help, or rearranging the rock work can possibly allow someone else to assume the dominant role. In regards to yours, I don't think diet is one of them. I've fed NLS and spirulina/veggie flake for many years without bloat issues. Aggression is more than likely the problem. That said, I wouldn't use clout at this point, it's a much harsher med and most of your fish are still seemingly OK. I agree with one of the previous posters about using Metro(Metronidazole) powder and treating the whole tank because there may be others who are on the edge of the disease too. A teaspoon will treat 140 gallons I think, but you can add more without ill effects because it's much easier on the fish.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

Borsig said:


> Also Im thinking about throwing this NLS in the trash. Should I just feed spirulina and ditch the NLS? Im confused as to why I HAVE bloat when I do evertything I can to prevent it, due to fear if it.
> 
> It seems there is no way to avoid it.
> 
> Im strongly considering shocking the tank with clout.


Forget the Clout. Get a bulk format of MET. Epsom salt for sure! Read the bloat article on here.
Feed only spiralling flakes until things go back to normal.


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

During treatment, I wouldn't feed at all honestly. Feeding sololy spirulina is not necessarily a good thing either.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Good advice on the treatment. For when they are healthy...I feed NLS exclusively and have for 10 years...it does not cause bloat. Stress causes bloat and IME it's usually harassment. Of course it could have been harassment once causing your first death and now your tank is infected.

Harassment is a tricky thing...sometimes impossible to observe. You did suspect your dolphins so maybe you were right.

I do like the metronidazole treatment and I dose more than MFG recommendations AND 2X daily. I treat the whole tank, put the whole dose of metro in a cup with some tank water...soak the pellets briefly but not until they fall apart. Then I dump the whole mess in the tank. For the ones still eating, met works better internally. For the ones not eating a lot of the metro is not absorbed by the pellets and will float around the tank.


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

what metro are you guys using?

Most cost effective? I se kens has a 500MG powder for $40. But he ships slowly


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I'll send a PM


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

thanks!

Do you all think we should stop feeding here?

Continue metro soaked food for those that are eating? I have a little seachem metro left until i can source more.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

What I do is don't feed in the hospital tank (for those that are not eating anyway) and do feed with medicated food if they ARE eating in the main tank so the epidemic stops.


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

Thats what I was thinking. Seems the most logical course.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I do that because I read somewhere that metro is more effective when ingested...it seemed to make sense. Hope Iggy gave you my metro supplier (I think he did)...very reasonable for metro and quick shipper.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

I did DJ. You gave me that supplier info years ago.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

DrgRcr said:


> During treatment, I wouldn't feed at all honestly. Feeding sololy spirulina is not necessarily a good thing either.


Is there any scientific literature proving that feeding spirolina to a bloat stricken fish is either good or bad? A fish that is not eating will obviously not eat the spirolina flake. A fish that is infected and still eating will get worse if it eats spirolina flake? Or will the spirolina flake make the situation better? Do we really know the right answer?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Since it is a digestive issue, it makes sense not to feed.

Spirulina is widely regarded as an ideal feed for algae eaters, but it's a good part of a balanced diet...not a good thing to feed solely...it is suspected of causing dark blotches on fish that eat too much.

The problem with bloat and science is the scientists don't really know much about it. I have used the metronidazole cure a couple times with success. I got it from others who were successful. People seem to have good results unless the fish is too far gone. IDK of any clinical trials though.


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## chopsteeks (Jul 23, 2013)

A tip I learned from an old-timer when feeding Metro soaked food ---- sprinkle a tad of garlic powder !!

Metro's taste is very bitter..by giving it a garlic flavor will stimulate your fish's appetite and mask the bitter taste of Metro. Likewise, fish loves the taste of garlic and boosts their immune system too !!


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

I am using clout for the first time on the small blue zebra I pulled the other day. I am on day 3 (as recommended by the sticky in the health forum). If he lives - then the stuff is gold. He has clear white stringy, and was distressed when I pulled him.


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## chopsteeks (Jul 23, 2013)

What is the temperature of your tanks ? Bumping up the temperature to 80-82 degree range should help with bloat. If you do, make sure to increase aeration too.


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

around 78F


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

chopsteeks said:


> What is the temperature of your tanks ? Bumping up the temperature to 80-82 degree range should help with bloat. If you do, make sure to increase aeration too.


Just curious, how does increased temperature help? I'm always looking for more bloat info.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

GTZ said:


> chopsteeks said:
> 
> 
> > What is the temperature of your tanks ? Bumping up the temperature to 80-82 degree range should help with bloat. If you do, make sure to increase aeration too.
> ...


Answering my own question here after some google fu. Increased temperature inhibits the growth of flagellates. Unfortunately, the suggested temperature is ~95F for 7 days. :roll:


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

Defintely bloat. The zebra in the QT tank that was beign treated with clout did not make it. He died this afternoon on day 3 of treatment.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Sorry for your struggles.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

Borsig said:


> Defintely bloat. The zebra in the QT tank that was beign treated with clout did not make it. He died this afternoon on day 3 of treatment.


Don't give up. Dose your main with Epsom salt and please get your hands on some MET ASAP. All of us go through this at one point or another.
What most of us have learned is to be prepared with hospital tanks and medication on hand.


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

500G can of metro was ordered today and is on route usps priority. Probably be here wed.

How much met powder for the 180, and how long? The bloat cure articles dont really cover large tanks.

Epsom salt - i can get this today on the way home. Recommended dosing? 2 tablespoons per 10G?


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

also the bloat article recommends 30-40% water changes daily while dosing the metro.

Most of my fish, if not all are eating.

I will turn off the auto water changer during this process of dosing metro in the water column. Does the water need to be 30% changed daily if they are feeding?

Should I dose in food, AND the water column since they are eating? A few days of water colum dosing? I plan on treating the food for about 10 days, thru next weekend. Since you can't OD metrodiazole.

ETA - for metro dosing - 1 teaspoon =5 grams is it?


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

I would really like to have some detailed information on your ''auto water change'' system please. Every detail that you can think of. Maybe there is an element there that is causing stress. Temperature fluctuation? Chlorine/Chloramine?


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

No chlorine. The AWCS was installed about six weeks ago. I had been losing the occasional fish well before that. I think this has been an ongoing problem that has started to get worse.

I am on a well. water change is simple - water is drawn off the cold water line in the house, thru a 1/4" tubing line. (icemaker type) It feeds to a float valve in the sump, which maintains a level. Rate of exchange is controlled by a metering valve and drain on the sump drain line, that feeds to the floor drain in the house. Its currently set at about 2 GPH. The tank is a 180. The heater is in the sump (300w jager) the thermal mass is large, and there is not enough water injected into the column to cause any temp fluctuations that I am aware of. It gets a squirt or two (1/4 cap per squirt) of prime every day or two for extra measure.

The 40B fry and growout tank is on the same system of water change, and does not seem to be affected, that I can tell.

The same water is in a 75G Hap tank (5 p. pheno Tanzania) and they seem OK . (manual water changes on that one)

Should I further test for Chloramine in my well water? Its never been a problem. If so can you recommend a test kit?


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

I don't believe chloramine is ever found in well water. Unless you were adding it yourself.


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

I wouldnt think so either, Chlorine, nor chloramine , unless someone is dumping it on the ground.

I even removed the softener from my system ( we really didnt need it, our water isnt nasty hard) so the water would better serve our fish. We get a little caclium, but nothing bad. I need to re -test my hardness, I forget what it is now. We dont have an iron problem either.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

By measuring the met for the tank, and swishing it in a cup with some tank water, you can then add your normal amount of pellets. Let the liquid soak into the pellets a little but not so they fall apart. Dump the whole mess into the tank. This gives you both medicated food and medication for the water column.


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## Borsig (Nov 21, 2012)

Still dosing the metro.

No deaths in about a week, but thats not unusual.

May do a water change and another dose today.


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