# pH Impact on Life Span (when less then ideal)



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

This question came up in another aquatic life group I belong to, I've wondered about it and would love to know what all of you have experienced.

If you keep a fish at a higher or lower pH than would be ideal, is it's lifespan shortened? Is it more prone to illness? Or does it acclimate and thrive?

Let's say you are keeping a clown loach in an African cichlid tank with temp=78 and pH=8.2.

And also let's say for the sake of the discussion that everyone agrees the ideal range for the clown loach is min temp=78 and max pH=7.0.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

I have no proof, as any test would require many tanks and many years, but IME and just a general impression of my cichlids... yes, I'd say for certain.

I don't think it's just the pH, as I've run tests manipulating pH and the test subjects lived normal life spans... I believe it's more about the total environment and how energy efficient the animal is in optimal conditions vs less optimal.


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

I can really get into this as I am a Biology major with a minor in chemistry.

For starters, extremely high or low pH values generally result in complete loss of activity for most enzymes found in organisms, fish included. 
These enzymes are responsible for most of the processes involving digestion, respiration etc.

Enzymatic reactions can be altered, slowed down, even disrupted to the point the fishes organs are placed in danger. 
Each enzyme has an ideal range where it is most efficient and effective. Thus, we have natural habitats where creatures thrive and have adapted to over thousands even millions of years.

Could you imagine if the pH of your blood was not able to be regulated and dropped under 7.0 and into acidic conditions? Luckily our bodies can produce bicarbonate to counteract all of the acidic byproducts our body produces during our functional activities. 
What if this was somehow interupted and the process no longer could be completed?

Take a fish which is native to waters that have a pH of 5.0, place it in a body of water that is above 7.0 and you have serious issues. 
This fish is producing bicarbonates to offset the acidic water conditions. It now is in basic water and will continue to produce these bicarbonates when it no longer needs to.

Ionic strength also fluctuates and changes under different hydrogen ion concentrations. PH is a logarithmic scale and abrupt changes can cause serious damage to balance of that organism.

To simplify, the idea that animals have an ideal range of pH in which they thrive is important.
You place their regulatory systems, receptors, and organs under great stress and force them to adjust to a property that is very crucial.

Some fish that are native to rivers and streams are better at adjusting due to the many waters that will dump out or feed into other waters. In considering lake bound fish, you must understand water properties do not vary especially at lower levels.

It definitely will factor in because it does take a toll on an organisms body if it struggles to remain fully functional in a less than optimal condition.


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## PaulineMi (Apr 3, 2008)

Great explanation smellsfishy1.



> Each enzyme has an ideal range where it is most efficient and effective. Thus, we have natural habitats where creatures thrive and have adapted to over thousands even millions of years.


What about fish that have been tank bred for several generations?



> Take a fish which is native to waters that have a pH of 5.0, place it in a body of water that is above 7.0 and you have serious issues.


Totally makes sense. However if a fish is kept in water that is consistently above or below the ideal from birth would it's longevity be affected?



> It definitely will factor in because it does take a toll on an organisms body if it struggles to remain fully functional in a less than optimal condition.


Would this be more of a factor in WC fish vs tank bred fish?


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## natalie559 (Dec 6, 2007)

My tetras and angel are kept in the same tap water as my mbuna. I don't do any adjustments. My ph is 8.5 after a 24 hour rest. The angel and tetras have been with me for 4 years now and look great! No breeding from the tetras probably due to ph but also no disease.


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## RyanR (Apr 29, 2008)

smellsfishy1 said:


> I can really get into this as I am a Biology major with a minor in chemistry.
> 
> For starters, extremely high or low pH values generally result in complete loss of activity for most enzymes found in organisms, fish included.
> These enzymes are responsible for most of the processes involving digestion, respiration etc.
> ...


Thus is true, though many cold blooded animals have several "kinds" of enzymes that do the same thing at the same rate... just at different temperatures. These critters upregulate the production of the enzymes that work best for the temperature they're experiencing.

I'd reckon this applies to fish in similar ways with regards to pH. Plus being able to tolerate a range of a given environmental variable is pretty key for being able to acclimate and ultimately evolve and adapt to new conditions.

I'm sure that pH is a factor at *some* level... how much, I dunno. There are just so many environmental and nutritional needs that fish have, that it's always going to be hard to get them all perfect, and teasing out which is the biggest problem in an aquarium is really difficult... which is why most folks aim for consistency.

-Ryan


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I think pH gets blamed for more than what it deserves to get blamed for. Without the formal studies we 
can only go by experience. And, I don't think user experience will support the idea that we need to spend 
a lot of time adjusting pH to get our fish to live long healthy lives. The life span of most aquarium fish 
isn't even known. If fish are living shortened lives, it's probably due to water quality issues which affect 
pH, not the pH itself. I have nothing but my own experience and gut feelings to back that up, but that's all 
anyone else has.

So, sorry, I vote no. It has no appreciable affect. Keep the water quality up and parameters within 
reasonable levels, and there's no reason why most fish can't live very long lives. I'd hate to see 
someone reading this thread and believing that they now have to find the 'ideal' pH for their fish and then 
go to lengths to adjust it.


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

PaulineMi said:


> What about fish that have been tank bred for several generations?


depends on how many is "several" Some process can adapt quickly, some take many, many generations. If the breeder of the tank ganerations was truely selecting only the strongest and healthiest fish to mate, then the process would likely be quicker, than random pairing.



> However if a fish is kept in water that is consistently above or below the ideal from birth would it's longevity be affected?


the amount above/below would affect how much the said fish's body could deal there by shortening the lifespan accordingly.



> Would this be more of a factor in WC fish vs tank bred fish?


Any fish, regardless of where it came from would have the same trouble with the same amount of difference from where it was acustomed.


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

Tank bred for several generations means nothing. 
Evolution or true/full scale adaption takes hundreds even thousands of years to compile enough genetic mutations both advantageous and detrimental, to change allele frequencies and traits.
Adaptions to better suite organisms to live in different habitats would need more than several generations. F0,F1,F2,F3.... all will experience the same issues in regards to pH.

The natural selection of traits that allow individual organisms to survive and reproduce are already predetermined by their ancestral genetics.
These animals we keep are not adapting to our water, they are genetically mandated to either tolerate or not to tolerate it. 
If it survives is not the question but what if it struggles to thrive?
Is it ok since it isn't dying quickly or hasn't died YET?

If you continue to subject organisms to less than ideal pH that is not within range it *will* have negative effects and cause health issues that can cause them to die prematurely.

Compare to diseases that cause secondary infections and illness. This is why when organisms contract a virus they die of common sickness. HIV is a perfect example. Immune system becomes depleted so people die of common colds.
Complications become more prevalent and health issues will escalate.

How could pH not have an effect on lifespan?
Biologically and chemically it is critical so YES, it does factor into lifespan.
It isn't a matter of pinpointing your pH value so it is exactly 8.2 or anything like that.

Be aware of the fact that swings in any direction and exposure to out of range conditions can cut the lifetime of the animal short. 
Obsessing over some number is not the intention of this thread hence the name of the title.
I _*hope*_ people read this and understand that pH does play a role in the quality of life for animals.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

pH is neither sensed nor reacted to by fish provided it is within the normal range for life. 
pH swings do NOT affect a fish when it is ONLY the pH that is altered. I.e. KH, GH, etc. remain the same. I have tested with dwarf cichlids and moved them repeatedly (short durations and long) from water with a pH of 5 to a pH of 8 and back. No deaths, no stress, fish were returned to multiple display tanks where they bred and lived anywhere from 3 to 5 yrs... generally a longer life span than normal for Apistogramma species.

Now I believe that keeping fish in water with a pH that is less than optimal will shorten their life span, but I firmly believe that it has to do with how ammonia interacts with pH, osmoregulation, etc.

P.s. 1st generation adaptations are common and can easily be reproduced in one's own aquarium... if it's in the genome, it could be activated and put into good use! It doesn't take mutations, evolution yada yada...


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## RyanR (Apr 29, 2008)

smellsfishy1 said:


> Tank bred for several generations means nothing.
> Evolution or true/full scale adaption takes hundreds even thousands of years to compile enough genetic mutations both advantageous and detrimental, to change allele frequencies and traits.
> Adaptions to better suite organisms to live in different habitats would need more than several generations. F0,F1,F2,F3.... all will experience the same issues in regards to pH.


Not necessarily... read The Beak of the Finch. Depending on the strength of the selection factor, evolution can happen pretty darn quickly. Especially if the genome already has what you need to handle it. If critters were so immutable as to not be able to handle a range of suboptimal environmental conditions, we'd be in rough shape. There's a LOT of stuff hidden in the genome that can either be switched on or upregulated to handle changing conditions (of course, this isn't "evolution"). The vertebrate genome is loaded with all sorts of goodies.

If the animals are healthy and thriving (as much as can be in an aquarium), you should should be fine.

Anyway, this is part of the reason why I avoid wild caught fish.

-Ryan


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## PaulineMi (Apr 3, 2008)

Ryan R wrote:


> Anyway, this is part of the reason why I avoid wild caught fish.


I feel that way also. You guys explain the reasons better than I ever could though. :wink:


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

I respect all opinions in this forum but here is something I don't understand. 
There really isn't any difference to what anyone is saying, why is there disagreement?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

natalie559 is saying something different. Her example is even more dramatic than the one I suggested.

I just wondered if we are being unnecessarily cautious when we refuse to put a clown in a cichlid tank because of pH (and temp and water movement, etc.), or if there really is an adverse impact.


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

I wouldn't put a clown loach in a cichlid tank for many reasons but neither pH nor temperature would keep me from putting a clown loach in a cichlid tank. It would be different factors.

As for Natalie559's experience, it shows that the pH may be preventing breeding in her tetras but I don't know much about tetras to comment beyond that.


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