# Blue Acara goes absolutely nuts - nervous system? Tick?



## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Well, I've gone a long time with no illness, disease etc but this is something I can't figure out. I can't find a disease or illness that describes what is going on with this fish, the closest I can come to some sort of diagnosis is that it's a fit/seizure but try and find any solid info.

Info:

45 gallon
pH 7.3
KH 3
GH 5
Ammonia 0mg/l
NitrIte 0mg/l
NitrAte <10mg/l

50% weekly water change with water, treated with Prime and matched to be exactly the same KH GH pH.

Filter is what you'd understand as the Marineland C series (I think), it's the TetraTec EX700 or similar and it's in good order (clean half the filter material once a month in tank water).

Temp is a stable 26.5C.

I've had the fish for almost two weeks so he is new and I believe the problem was pre-existing although not apparent in the LFS. I was initially concerned with it being a swimbladder infection as by the time I had got home the fish didn't look right - 30 min journey in insulated bag, as soon as I get back I add prime to the bag water to detoxify ammonia whilst they sit and acclimate.

As soon as I got him out of the bag and into the water he sank to the bottom and sat very flat on his belly. Fine, new tank to the fish, just gone through a journey, seen it before, but didn't look quite right with how quickly he dropped to the bottom. So I watched and waited, he started swimming just fine but kept coming back down to rest. Eventually he chilled and started slowly exploring the tank, this is when things get weird.

He would lose control of his swimbladder on a right turn - specifically when he turned right. He would be zooming around getting excited, no problem, turn left sharply, no problem but as soon as he turned right it was almost as though a nerve was being caught and it caused him to lose it for a second, resulting in difficulty keeping stability and rotating clockwise along the horizontal axis (ie looking head on at the fish his belly would try and flip up, always the same way). He would remain aware and fought to remain upright and would still try and swim about but obviously struggling to maintain control.

After about 10 seconds or so of this he'd return to normal, just like that, no difficulty, nothing. He'd then swim about the tank again for the next few mins absolutely fine, get overexcited and make a sharp right turn and it would be off again.

This happened so I immediately added salt at the dose of 17g per gallon. Well, not immediately - I added it over several hours in two halves on two days, I combined this with a swimbladder medication (I believe it contains formaldehyde). I strictly followed the instructions for this and continued to observe the fish.

He continued to have difficulties every now and again but they were certainly reduced quite substantially - even right after the first dose of salt and meds he seemed much better. I performed a small water change on the fourth day and re-treated with the meds, again he seemed to get even better to the point that he could now swim back and forth and would only rarely lose control of buoyancy when turning right - instead of almost rolling over like before, he now either sunk or rose a little.

I left the tank for another four days at which point I performed another small water change and added no further meds. During those four days he continued to improve to the point that he no longer appeared to suffer swimbladder issues. I left it a few more days with meds in the tank and when I'd not seen him have any issues for those few days I started performing WC's to remove the meds and get the water fresh.

All went well, he's not had an apparent swimbladder spaz since. He zooms about the tank, chases the dithers, eats healthily, poops good healthy poop and rushes up to see me. Which is all well and good, but theres something else that's come through now and I've never seen anything like it. However it would be naive to think that it is unrelated to his swimbladder considering the issues - particularly how suspicious it makes me that it occurred when he turned one way and not the other.

Anyway, what happens now is that he will be absolutely fine, chilling out, swimming around, when suddenly you'll hear gravel and sand flying about the tank and donk, donk, donk, bang, scrape etc etc - he goes apes##t, I mean _really_ nuts:

Colouration intensifies.
Seems to skid the bottom of the tank but *not* rolling about as though it's swim bladder.
Breathing rate goes up (like hyper) although this may well be because of how nuts he's going.
Swims with ALL his force and aggression against the glass and all over it.
Slamming into the edges.
Slamming into hard scape stuff, and last night REALLY hard head first into the substrate - I thought it was game over for him then.
Shifts back and forth in one spot with his belly right on the ground after the spac-out - ie like he's passing water back and forth over his gills.

At first I thought he'd seen his reflection and was going for it - that's the closest I can describe it as - as though he's trying to kill his reflection, but he isn't biting at the glass he's just swimming really hard and fast. I'll try and get it on film the next time he does it because it's really bad, he's going to kill himself soon if this doesn't stop because he is so violently thrashing around the tank.

Imagine a person freaking out, running into a wall, getting back up and before becoming oriented again, running full speed and slamming into another wall etc.... Seems completely randomly triggered too - usually in the evenings though, he's only done it twice during the day but a few times at night.

Well that's about as much information as I can give you Kim and Robin, I hope it's enough. Like I say I will get a video of him doing it and hope it isn't his last because this is the weirdest thing I've ever seen a fish doing for no apparent reason.

Help my fish! Maybe I should cull him, I just can't see that it's fair to have him go through this every so often because he's going to seriously injure himself and if I'm not around to end it, he'll suffer :










Blair.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Blair, this sounds identical to what happened with a group of electric blue Jack Dempseys that I had.

I wish I had some words of wisdom. :roll:

My conclusion was that the fish initially had some sort of stroke, or transient ischemic "attack" which only affected one side of their body and motions on that side. This would be the first thing I would notice...Something just not firing right in their brain, clearly neurological...I didn't come to this conclusion until the "darting and crashing" started, though. That began about a week after the first symptoms started, and it moved through all 3 fish, one at a time.

My first reaction was internal parasites in the brain area, so I treated the water column _and_ food with metronidazole. Each time a fish fell ill, though, it stopped eating after a couple of days, so the treated food wasn't going where I wanted it to go.

Unfortunately, I lost all 3, and wound up with them isolated in breeder nets to protect them from hurting themselves further before their deaths. I really thought this was something isolated to the EBJD's until I read this thread.

I lost alot of money with those fish, and I was crazy about them, so I've played over it again and again in my mind, trying to figure out what I could have done that would have helped them. In retrospect, I wish I had tried to force feed them the meds with tubing and a syringe, and if I ever experience anything like this again, I've got the equipment ready to give it a try.

Sorry I can't be of more help to you, but I thought I should let you know that I do know what you're talking about.

I really think in cases like this, the brain is affected...Whether it be by something internal going wrong, an injury (but not with 3 EBJD???), or parasitic...

I'm not sure there is anything you can do in these cases, but I always try.

Do you have access to any laboratory supplies? I have what we call a "butterfly" on hand in case this ever happens again...It's a little gadget that attaches to a vacutainer or syringe and is used to get blood from people who have terrible veins. It's a tiny needle with a plastic "butterfly" at the end of it to hold on to, then a very tiny tube that attaches directy to a syringe. I plan to remove the needle and "butterfly" and insert the tubing into the gut of the fish via the mouth, and force meds and food through that.

I know it sounds like a pain, but I'm kind of stubborn once I get something like this in my head! :lol:


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

It's very strange indeed Kim.

The thing is that he now swims completely normally and turns in a flash either way, with no problems or disorientation whatsoever, in fact he's perfectly normal in every respect, until he starts doing this crazy hard swimming every once in a while. Are you saying that it started like this with yours, and then progressively got worse? Or were yours permanently having difficulty in turning?

That's what I find so odd about it is that he no longer has problems turning, whereas if he still did then I would suspect it to be a pinched nerve/something similar. It seems to make sense that this would cause him to "stroke out" for a second or two when he turned right and would explain how he seemed dazed/disoriented for those few seconds. But now his apparent ease of turning right blows that out the water for me.

I've not had any problems at all with him eating, he eats fine, doesn't spit out food, poops regularly and healthily etc. It's the strangest thing. It really is like he's scizo and just flips out for a while - when he does it he's completely unresponsive to _anything_ I do. I could grasp it, as I say, when he was turning and losing it, because I could see how it could occur, but this is really disturbing because there is nothing apparently wrong with him or his swimming 99% of the time, then he just flips and I swear I'm going to see this fish die.

:-?


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Here's a (not very good) video of him getting excited, eating and then swimming up and down at the glass trying to get me to feed him - this isn't him going nuts he just does this when I go up to the tank. However at the end of the video pay attention to his movement, something doesn't seem quite right.

http://s100.photobucket.com/albums/m15/ ... ra13gp.flv

I haven't seen him go nuts yet today, he did a little first thing this morning but not like usual and he stopped after a couple of seconds.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Well he's still here and has only had two spaz outs that I know of since I made this post.

He still doesn't seem quite right every now and again but he's eating, pooping healthy etc.... Weird.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Sorry I disappeared on you...I was traveling and then trying to catch up when I got back!

If he's eating, Blair, it's not as bad as my situation. Mine stopped eating as soon as the erratic behaviour started.

I agree that his movement at the end of the video seems kind of odd. I sometimes wonder if it is possible for a fish to have what we humans refer to as a stroke. That could leave residual damage (like we saw in the video) but allow the fish to recover, as well.

Please keep me posted on this...

Have you added any meds or tried anything at all?


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Hey Kim,

I figured you were probably busy, it is summer after all (you wouldn't know it here though!)

Apart from the initial meds I gave him to treat for the swimbladder, weirdness- :lol:, I've not wanted to add anything else - I'm pretty apprehensive when it comes to adding meds. I've only ever had to use Ich treatment on new arrivals a couple of times and this is my first for a proper treatment. He got through that fine and I've done several 30% WC's to refresh the water (3x in a week) then 50% as normal last change and normal 50% weekly since. You know me, the water is always pH KH GH temp checked and matched.

None of the other fish in the tank are showing illness or signs of possible contamination and they've been together for over two weeks thus far - I moved my P taeniatus to the tank and they are looking at their absolute best, wanting to spawn etc.

He's eating like there's no tomorrow although that may be because I'm still feeding him quite lightly until I figure out what's going on.

I've added a lot more driftwood to the tank that I had soaking and he's really calm and relaxed today, he's eaten and hasn't shown any signs of strange behaviour - what concerns me is that occasionally the behaviour seemed to be triggered when he ate, but not so any more. I must say he's looking particularly good today.

This video is from his last major "episode" which was quite a few days ago (3-4 days):
http://s100.photobucket.com/albums/m15/ ... ce01-1.flv

Bear in mind that this is considerably mellow compared to what he did before, which was simply this but a million times faster and banging into everything as a result. I've not seen him do this since but he is still a bit "bumpy" every now and then - ie bumps into driftwood as he tries to swim down - it's like he's a bit clumsy or something.

Hope you're well Kim!


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I'm great! I've been in Kentucky for a couple of weeks and now that I'm back here, I'm playing "catch up" on everything!

He's such a nice fish...

It's almost as if he can't propel himself forward properly...

But it does sound as if he's improving. Mine sure didn't. The crazy behaviour just got worse and worse until I had to put them in a breeder net to keep them from hurting themselves.

Hopefully, your guy is on his way to recovery...


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Hmm he just had another "funny five minutes". It's very odd.

I can't make up my mind what to do with this fish, if I leave him he's likely to injure himself badly, damage another fish or potentially even the tank. I just can't bring myself to cull him, but the last thing I want is for him to get badly injured during a freak out. If I were to cull the fish I have a 750x microscope, are there any dissections I could take to study for signs of parasite etc?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Do you know anyone in university (med school) that could perform a necropsy on the fish?

That's what I wanted to do with mine, but I couldn't find anyone to do it for me without spending a fortune. I dissected the last fish myself, but didn't really know what I was looking for so it wasn't very helpful. I basically confirmed that there were no visible parasites in either the brain or intestinal tract, but other than that, I had nothing to compare anything else to. All the organs looked perfectly healthy, but without killing another fish, who knew if they looked the same or not.

With my EBJDs, the erratic behaviour eventually intensified enough that I had no choice but to move them to a breeder net for their own protection. But, Blair, I don't think any of mine survived more than 2 weeks from the onset of symptoms, so that makes me think you've got something different going on...

I just wish I knew what it was!

If it is neurological, then it may be something that will "repair" itself over time. Sometimes, the person or animal that has a neurological incident will just "retrain" themselves to function around the damage left by the incident, and this may be why it seems to "repair" on it's own.

On the other hand, if it's something equivalent to a human "stroke", then this episode could be a precursor of worse neurological deficiencies to come...

It's a tough call.

I think I'd have to let it play out, unless the "attacks" (for lack of a better word) start to become more frequent and the risk of injury become higher. I might even put him in a smaller tank all by himself with only soft decor like plants and reduce the risk of injury. (This is why I sometimes end up with 15 tanks set up at a time, so take what you will from what I'm saying! :wink: )


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Well this is the dilemma, he is such a beautiful fish and otherwise seems healthy, it just seems so random I could only imagine it's something firing off in his neurological system.... Very odd.

I actually know someone who lives within 30 minutes of me who performs necropsies on local aquatic species for a profession, they're a member of the family! So I'll have to try and make the connection (extended family) and see if they'd do it, if it comes to that.

Although he is eating well and when I see him poop it looks healthy, is there a possibility he may have internal parasites? Remember earlier that I mentioned it seemed to be triggered after feeding initially.... I started feeding him up a bit to see if he puts weight on, but I have not really seen any gain, still eats, still poops, just not sure if he's putting on weight.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Sure it's possible...I'd soak his food in metronidazole or praziquantel for a bit and at least give it a try.

I don't think that's what's causing the crazy swimming, though...


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## BethL (Jul 18, 2008)

Many years ago I had some fish that acted like yours and my guys were also new. They were swimming like mad and hitting the glass. I used parasite guard and in less than 24hrs the behavior completely stopped and I didn't lose any of them.

They didn't have any of the other symptoms that you've talked about though.



blairo1 said:


> Well this is the dilemma, he is such a beautiful fish and otherwise seems healthy, it just seems so random I could only imagine it's something firing off in his neurological system.... Very odd.
> 
> I actually know someone who lives within 30 minutes of me who performs necropsies on local aquatic species for a profession, they're a member of the family! So I'll have to try and make the connection (extended family) and see if they'd do it, if it comes to that.
> 
> Although he is eating well and when I see him poop it looks healthy, is there a possibility he may have internal parasites? Remember earlier that I mentioned it seemed to be triggered after feeding initially.... I started feeding him up a bit to see if he puts weight on, but I have not really seen any gain, still eats, still poops, just not sure if he's putting on weight.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

How are things?


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

He seems fine Kim, thanks for asking!

Well I say fine, he's still a fruitcake but it's not as bad as it was - I haven't seen him have an episode for a few days, generally they've been getter fewer and further between. When he goes off on one now it doesn't seem quite as drastic as before - he was really plummeting into stuff whereas now he just seems to swim really hard against the glass in one corner, maybe bump around a little but then goes and chills out until whatever it is has stopped.

His gut isn't filling out, but on the same count it isn't receding either - I've not been feeding very much whilst I consider my options and I think that what I've decided is try and feed him really well over the next fortnight, see if his stomach starts to fill, if it doesn't I'm going to go ahead and treat for parasites - although after this duration I would find it very odd considering how well he eats and seemingly healthy he is (apart from the spac). I am always very hesitant to use meds so I've not done anything yet, I wanted to see what time would do first and foremost.

The way he is now isn't so bad, he's not likely to hurt himself as before and I'm getting attached (reluctantly), so I would really like to keep him as my wet pet. Hopefully his gut fills out and the episodes continue to diminish.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Blair, this will be the first time I've seen a fish pull through something like this, so please give periodic updates on him.

I wonder if it's possible for a fish to have seizures? Dogs and cats have seizures...


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

cichlidaholic said:


> I wonder if it's possible for a fish to have seizures? Dogs and cats have seizures...


Technically anything with a brain can have a seizure since all it is is abnormal electrical activity. The question come to whether or not the fish brain is complex enough for that type of disturbance to show a meaningful outward effects.

The behavior of Blair's fish reminds me of the non-convulsive gand mal seizures where the person repeats a string of words or phrase, or does an odd repetative movement.

I did a quick google of "siezure activity in fish" and turned up lots of papers about it, but in every case I read they were trying to induce the siezure chemically and they were using electrical monitoring devices to detect the seizure. It does not really mention and physical manifestations, but that doesn't mean there weren't any, just not relavant to their research.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

This was undoubtedly a seizure of some sort. Or a seizure created by epileptic manifestation?

Let me finish the "arc" in this story by explaining that he is dead as of yesterday evening, I've seen some horrible stuff in my time but I've never seen any person or animal suffer a seizure like that before. The seizure didn't kill him - it almost did because you could see his muscles were in such a seizure that he could not even move his gills to breathe, this was for about 30 seconds or so - he went in-between spiralling loop the loops, twisting, swimming upside down, like a pinball all over the tank and then went from dark to really light, not dead white, or loss of colour, but really light and stayed upside down in one place, in seizure.

Every single inch of him was rock solid quaking, his eyes, his fins were flared all absolutely pumped and flickering (seizure) at such a rate that you could barely see the movement, even his eyes were juddering, his mouth protruded as if making a full bite and locked there - ie incredibly powerful muscle spasms throughout his entire body. Even the spots on his dorsal fin were quaking, it sounds odd but they really were, it was as if even the chromataphores were being "squeezed".

The seizure passed and the fish righted it self, started to "cough" as it restarted use of its gills and looked as though it may pull through again, although at this point it was half unconcious and only started to come back. So it was at this point I said enough, I will not have this fish living like this, not to have him survive and go through it again. I netted him, understanably with no resistance, the fish couldn't care less, took him outside and a sharp stout whack on the top of the head just above the eyes did it, his eyes went from darting and just sunk and relaxed almost immediately.

I've put down fish before, and I've culled, but this was a big fish and for some reason that made it all the harder, I've been struggling with this one morally for a while now and I have to say, I'm not sure I feel any better about it - I never kill fish if I can help it, I just don't know what else I could have done for him, far from an excuse, that to me, is an unacceptable failure.


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## MalawiLover (Sep 12, 2006)

You did the right thing Blair. You did as Nature would have done.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I would have done the same thing, Blair. So sorry...


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Thanks you two!

I hate to think what it would be like going through that in your final minutes, it was really difficult to watch but at the same time I was absolutely fascinated and watching as closely as I could; by this point I knew the fish had to go so I used those few seconds to try and take in as much visual information as possible.

It was much like the behaviour you'd expect in an epileptic seizure in humans, the muscle rigidity and spasms, the eyes rolling, difficulty breathing, occasional convulsive motions usually followed by intense short "quivering" seizures. That he righted himself and returned to breathing after the seizure passed and, potentially, if left to it would have recovered (to a degree, only to have it happen again), seems to signify that this is rather an epileptic type disorder, rather than disease/parasite in origin. Surely such parasites would be indicated by a fairly constant decline in the health of the fish, or at least an increase in severity of the condition. In this case the symptoms certainly got much better, both in terms of severity and frequency, only to suddenly have a major episode...

Very odd and a first for me.

It leaves me with a 45 gallon of "open water", so watch this space I guess.


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