# temperature control



## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

The ambient room temperature is probably in the 70's but my water temperature is usually around 88F. That is with a wood canopy, 220W of CF lighting, and 3 Rio 2100 pumps on, and heaters "on" (not really on, but plugged in - they are set for about 78F).

If I turn off the lights it will go down about 5*.

If I turn the pumps off it will go down about 5*.

If I open the canopy and turn on the ceiling fan I can bring it down to 74F.

One thing I noticed is that the compact fluorescent lights run really hot. I would say the total heat of the 4 strips is definitely hotter than a incandescent bulb of comparable wattage (yes, I know that not a fair comparison, but from a power perspective it should be). That was surprising to me.

Since I dont want to leave the canopy open and fan on every day with lights off, I am trying to think of legitimate solutions to this thermal problem. Right now I am thinking of using four 80mm computer fans in the back of the canopy. But I have two questions:

1. Should they blow in over the top of the tank, or should they blow out and "suck out" the hot air.
2. If I did 4 of these fans (about 20-30cfm each) would they make any difference. Would two be OK?

Ideally I would like to be able to keep the pumps and lights on without going above 80-82F.

Thanks,
Brad


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## a_c_arnold (Mar 7, 2008)

For starters, I would turn my heaters down. Maybe try a timer on your lighting and make it intermident.


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## under_control (Jan 9, 2008)

Add a fan to the canopy. Blow in and out. I'd start with two.


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## under_control (Jan 9, 2008)

Also, I set my timer to turn my lights off during times I am not home.


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## Stickzula (Sep 14, 2007)

Just for giggles, unplug the heaters and see if there is any difference. I know that the thermostat should shut them off @ 78*, but I would be interested to see if it really does.

Then I would add 2 of the fans that you are asking about. I would run them one day blowing out. Then reverse the polarity making the fan run in reverse, blowing in. If you want to you could try one in and one out to see if it makes a difference. If 2 bring your temp down enough then you are done. If they bring it down a little, but not enough, add 1 or 2 more. These fans have been tested and do work, but I don't know if blowing in or out is better. I would bet that out is better though.

I would also put your lights on a timer. That should help, but only marginally.


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## kingpoiuy (Jun 9, 2008)

Ya, I've got a heater with the temp listed right on it. I have it on, oh 75ish, and it's still turning on sometimes when my water is 83. When I had it at 80 it turned on about the same. Thoes heaters are strange sometimes.

I would pull the air out if I were you. If you suck the air out it will pull from many different areas. If you blow over the water it might work but will not cover as large of an area IMO.


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## mithesaint (Oct 31, 2006)

Do you NEED 220 watts of lighting? You didn't mention tank size or plants, but either way 220 watts is a lot of juice. You could save a truckload of cash on your electricity bill, and not have to worry as much about temp.

Fans would help too, but would really increase evaporative losses, and would make your AC work harder because of the extra humidity.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

Stickzula said:


> Just for giggles, unplug the heaters and see if there is any difference. I know that the thermostat should shut them off @ 78*, but I would be interested to see if it really does.


I did try this, the heaters really do work. Since there are so many variables to this I have unplugged them with different combinations, but I don't leave them unplugged for long because I want to minimize temperature fluctuations. Thats why I cranked them up higher than I would normally keep them.



Stickzula said:


> Then I would add 2 of the fans that you are asking about. I would run them one day blowing out. Then reverse the polarity making the fan run in reverse, blowing in. If you want to you could try one in and one out to see if it makes a difference. If 2 bring your temp down enough then you are done. If they bring it down a little, but not enough, add 1 or 2 more. These fans have been tested and do work, but I don't know if blowing in or out is better. I would bet that out is better though.


This is pretty much the approach I was going to take. However, since I would have to drill more holes in my canopy to mount them, for now I am just going to buy two fans and place them on the top of the tank to see if they doing anything. If they do I will install them in canopy. And depending on how well they do I might add more. I figure its cheaper than buying a chiller.



Stickzula said:


> I would also put your lights on a timer. That should help, but only marginally.


My lights are on a timer - but of all the components the lights are the lowest priority right now. I am fine leaving them off and just keeping on my moonlights. By the time I put fish in the tank I am hoping to have the temperature situation under control.

Thanks for all your input.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

mithesaint said:


> Do you NEED 220 watts of lighting? You didn't mention tank size or plants, but either way 220 watts is a lot of juice. You could save a truckload of cash on your electricity bill, and not have to worry as much about temp.


Do I NEED a fish tank? Haha. I like to be logical - I would hate to have my lights insulted by a double standard. The tank is 125G and eventually there will be a fair amount of plants in there. Or at least experimented with. The 220 comes from 4 55W strips. So I can use any increment of 55W I want - but I would like the option of all 220W. I think the tank looks great when its at full blast. Granted when I lift the lid of my canopy my living room looks like aliens are invading or something. Yes its overkill, but so are most of the things people do to their fishtanks (at least on this site). And I would have to disagree about saving money - 220W is not a big deal in terms of cost. I used an energy calculator and it said it costs like $0.20/day for 8 hours of 4 55W bulbs. Considering my fish are going to cost me about 1G and I've already spent 2G's on the tank/stand I can live with the extravagant splurging of $0.30 a day.

[/quote] Fans would help too, but would really increase evaporative losses, and would make your AC work harder because of the extra humidity.[/quote]

Evaporation is definitely another concern. Especially because right now I have glass tops on the openings in the top of the tank. So I would have to remove those for fans to work. But it can't be as bad as what I have right now. With the canopy completely open, glass tops off, and the ceiling fan on I think I lose several gallons a week to evaporation. And I don't have A/C. Thats probably part of the problem.


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## under_control (Jan 9, 2008)

You would not have to remove them for the fans to work. The fans would evacuate the heat that is heating up the glass and water below.


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## under_control (Jan 9, 2008)

And what fish are you putting in your 125 that are going to cost you 1g? What kind of tank/stand did you buy that it cost you 2g? I've seen some of the nicest 220g stands/tanks with custom stands, complete sump, and the like brand new for under that price.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

under_control said:


> And what fish are you putting in your 125 that are going to cost you 1g? What kind of tank/stand did you buy that it cost you 2g? I've seen some of the nicest 220g stands/tanks with custom stands, complete sump, and the like brand new for under that price.


I'm actually surprised by your surprise. I've done cheap before and I didn't want to go down that path again. Half of the price for thefish is for all the juvies I will need to get the male adults I want. Lets say 4 juvies or each species for 10 species * 10$ avearge cost per fish is 400$. The other half is for a colony of F1 Moba that are going to cost me 50$ a pop for 12-15 so thats at least $600. Final cost (not accounting for time adjustment of money) is probably more like 500$ once I have my final stock list and weed out the females and stuff. But that is probably a year or two away.

As for the stand, I did a post on this before, but it is surprisingly easy to rack up a large bill - I would think most people in the DIY section would identify with this. You always start a DIY project thinking its gonna be cheaper - but it rarely is for me. Unless I lie to myself. I think a lot times people don't realize the total cost of things. And if you saw my stand you would think I was an idiot for spending that much - its not that nice. But it was fun building and it filled my time for 3 months pretty well, so I am happy with it.

For my custom stand *** spent at least $1k on wood, paint, stain, hardware, tools, etc. And I emphasize at least. I think I am still trying to convince myself I didnt spent that much. The plywood alone was 65$ a sheet and I used three sheets, so thats almost 200$ right there. I also used high quality hinges which cost almost 200$. My lighting system was about 200$. The paint/stain/varnish was easily another 100$. I also had very few tools and woodworking supplies, so there were a lot of trips to the hardware store. They all add up.

Tank cost about 500$ for an acrylic 125G. Filtration another 200$. Pumps costs me 120$. Sand and rock about 100$. Other tank accessories easily another 100$. And who knows what else I'm forgetting.

And coming up I have some custom plumbing I want to do, so that will probably be another 200$.

With all those dollars signs I afraid to add it all up, but I know when I am done it will be at about the 2500$ mark. Certainly things could have been done cheaper, but at the same thing I don't feel I wasted any money for what I got. I really tried to buy things at a good value rather than a good price. I actually feel like I implemented a lot of cost savings in the whole process. I should also reiterate, from my own experience, its easy to "forget" or not realize the total cost of things. I cant tell you how many lowes/homedepot/osh purchases I have in my bank account in the past 6 months. I have been keeping a spreadsheet of all my costs and also keeping track of everything I spent so I know every little bit counts.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

under_control said:


> You would not have to remove them for the fans to work. The fans would evacuate the heat that is heating up the glass and water below.


I think I will try both ways to see the difference. In another post someone explained the effectiveness of the fan is that it blows across the water. When I open the top of the tank and turn on a fan I can make it go from 84F to 74F easily. Thats a big drop. I am not sure if a small 3" 20CFM fan can have the same effect when the water surface is not exposed to the moving air.

But I also noticed that the inside of the canopy is pretty warm. Thats why I asked about the direction of the airflow into our out of the canopy. Its possible I might get enough heat reduction in the canopy space to cool the tank. But I doubt this since the room temperature is about 76F and the tank still sits at 88F with everything on. So it seems that having a cooler area around the tank is not good enough. I have a feeling I will need to blow the fans across the water with the glass tops off.

But I will try all methods and find out which works best. Thats the only way to know.


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## under_control (Jan 9, 2008)

Yes, a fan across the water will reduce the temp of an already heated tank, however if you prevent it from heating up from the lights by running the fan, you don't have to compromise for evap.


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## Rizup (Jan 29, 2008)

Here's what I did to cope with the heat:

1) Installed 4 - 120 mm Thermaltake SilentCat fans in my canopy wired to an AC to DC Adapter that allows me to regulate the voltage going to them.

2) Cut eggcrate to fit the tops of my tanks - I flipped open the glass tops and cut the egg crate to fit the front section.

My heaters keep the temp between 79.5 and 80 degrees (one comes on if the temp drops to 79.7 and the other if it drops to 79.5). When the weather started getting warmer, the tank temp got to almost 85 degrees! The fans were already in place at this point to deal with the heat from my canopy lights. By fitting the egg crate to the top of the tank I have been able to keep the temp at or below 81 degrees. Of course I also have my central AC set lower than normal, but I think if you do the egg crate and fans you will be pleasantly surprised. The extra evaporation is what cools the tank. Hope I could help or at least give an idea.

Mike


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## spotmonster (Nov 23, 2006)

Make a hole on one end of the canopy strickly for air intake. Mount the fan (or 2) on the other end blowing out. There's no need for fans blowing in and out. The air will still move the air across the water and or lights. When you have fans blowing in and out of a sealed environment you will eventually burn one out due to them never being exactly equal.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

I dont know about burning out fans, haha. Most computer systems use both inflow and outflow for maximum efficiency and you can actually find many studies documenting this. Usually in a computer case you have a fan on the bottom in the back to blow air in and a fan on the top front to suck air out. That way you are controlling the airflow through the case.

However, since I am dealing with water, and a lot of it at that, I think its a little different situation. But yea, I have a lot of good scenarios to try out thanks to all your suggestions! Hopefully I will order the fans soon so I can post some data on the different scenarios.


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## mithesaint (Oct 31, 2006)

$2500? Crikey  :thumb: If you can, great. I did a DIY stand because I could make it cheaper and stronger. You did a DIY stand because you could make it original and better. I think it's safe to say that most, but not all DIY is partly due to reducing cost. My plywood was $27/sheet. My hinges were $10 special from HD. Different strokes for different folks. :thumb:

If you have the cash to spend $2500 on a set up and another 500-1000 on stock, why not keep going with the best? I've never used one, but what about a chiller? Beats messing around with wiring fans and extra evaporation and all that jazz. Just a thought.

BTW, pics please. opcorn:


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## spotmonster (Nov 23, 2006)

boredatwork said:


> I dont know about burning out fans, haha. Most computer systems use both inflow and outflow for maximum efficiency .


Don't get me wrong I haven't done any scientific studies about this theory  But I have burned a few out when there was a totally sealed environment and the "in" fan was not able to keep up with the "output" size. My experience comes from the car audio field. I think in the case of computers it doesn't really meet what I'm saying because computer cases are not air tight. So even though you have input and output fans, they don't have a backpreassure working against them. This is usually due to extra holes being drilled in the case at one or more locations, the case leaking around the edges, or the fan being mounted to an opening larger than it's own diameter.

But then again, I suppose where you're installing them may not be totally air tight either.

Good luck, let us know the results.


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## under_control (Jan 9, 2008)

I think a canopy would be anything but airtight and burning out a fan would be of no concern.


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