# La Ceiba breeding project.



## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

So I introduced both of my Males (4-5in) from Rapps into the tank with the two females (6-7in) from Ken and the water looked like a bubbling cauldron for a few minutes. Man these are some wild fish. I had to isolate the smaller male today with a divider so he would not kill the larger male. This is the opposite of previous encounters. Both males look like they spent the night in a blender. They have been in different tanks since the first week when they were only ~3in because the large one almost killed the runt. Con-specific aggression is way higher then anything I have owned before.

I lost my female do to aggression when I added the other two females from my friend a few months back. It happens really fast with these guys and I am wondering what my chances of long term success are in a 125g. I have never owned a fish with the tools and desires to shred another fish like these possess.

I will try and post pics soon and I will keep updating this thread as things progress or fall apart.

Wish me luck and enjoy the ride.

Chris


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128 (Mar 22, 2006)

Good luck! I wish you the best!

For sure take and post some pictures of these beauties! :thumb:


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Well I have never kept this particular species, but I can speculate based on what I know and have experienced with other large aggressive CA.

It's often very difficult to house a pair of large aggressive CA, with out some kind of outside threat (tankmates). Some pairs are simply incompatible with out it. And as you can see they can inflict serious damage very quickly, so being their to throw in a devider isn't always practical unless you are there to watch over them. A lot of people loose female CA from male aggresion. In a 125 gal. at their size,I would think you should be able to house them with cons at least for some time, though there are other choices. The tankmates may need to be introduced first, to get established. Your lone snook might do, though i sort of doubt it, as it's only one target and is unlikely to be able to defend from a pair of Parachromis.

'Pair bonding' is, to a large extent an adaptation to captivity. In the wild a lot of CA cichlids will pair up for the duration of a spawn and after that, it's bye, bye. So there is often nothing very 'natural' about being couped up in a small space with the other sex, 24/7, 365 days a years. Some CA, like cons for example, will often pair up, and then go find a breeding sight. Others,( typical for example of many Veija), the male will stake out a territory and then attract a very ready female. They are not too interested in being with a female that isn't ready to breed right away, and once the fry are gone it's get lost so I can attract another female. Of course more then one strategy can exist in a species or population (even polagamy). But in captivity, the abundance of food can keep the female ready more often, and an outside threat facilitates the pair bond as well as distracts or diverts male aggression. Of course some species pair bond better then others ----IMO, salvini or RD generally pair bond a lot better then black belts, for example. And there is definately selection for it over many generations in captivity ---- a male that kills his females before he even gets too breed doesn't get to pass on his genetics.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

And remember, Ken Davis has to keep his pair perminately seperated in their 125 gallon due to aggression ...


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## cage623 (Feb 2, 2008)

I would love to see some pics! I can't wait to keep updates on this. opcorn:

With out having the space right now for such a large tank I have to live vicariously through others on this site. Thanks for sharing!


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

Thanks guys it has become apparent I need all the luck and well wishing I can get.

D.P. I have heard that before and I will be ok with that if it needs to be that way. But alot happier if it doesn't. :wink:

Bernie, I have been thinking about how to deal with that issue since I decided to set up this tank. Ideally I was hoping for two pairs divided down the middle and the presence of the other pair being focal point for aggression for both pairs. I was hoping to give them all a chance to pick partners and then divide.

However the little guy jumped the divider today and I don't think the big guy is long for this world. He is in QT but I'm not holding out much hope. I left a 3/4in gap on the top, out of the water, and he jumped it. I checked on them several times during the day and he was on his side I checked an hour later and it was too late. I put him back on the other side of the divider and he immediately jumped it and attacked the other male again. I feel bad there was no reason to have the gap i could have moved the egg crate up. The bottom was buried in rocks anyway.

So it looks like I will have one male (knocking on wood) and two females. The females have lived together their entire lives and the larger one is queen and the smaller one has no issues with that so they get along great right now. The queen doesn't seem to be aggressive if not challenged. That is why I lost my female she was the only YH left in the tank and it was HERS. She ran the show for about two weeks after I introduced the others, but I came home and she was shredded and didn't last long. She found the others breaking point I guess.

So now my plan is to set up caves on opposite ends with a big pile of wood in the middle to break line of sight. Let a pair form and see how they tolerate the odd girl out. I would love for the male to bounce back and forth between the two if they do not form a real strong pair If I have to accomplish this with dividers instead of a wood pile I will.

Cons might be in the future if I end up with a just a a pair. The large female and the snook act paired. They guard what ever cave they want together. She had eggs and nothing came of it. Which I am glad for but he may have to be removed because he is a distraction to my goal. There are five silver dollars in this tank as well and they are mostly ignored. If they start disappearing I will move them to another tank. Other then cons what might work as a good target fish? Does anyone make chain mail for fish? Something like a shark suit would be great.

I will be rearranging tomorrow and then i have family in for the weekend so i probably wont get a chance to post any pics until Monday.


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## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

i have had JD's where the male has swapped feemales but he will find the domonant one and go bnack to her or stay with her after he swaps, then they both killed the other female.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

chrispyweld said:


> Other then cons what might work as a good target fish?


Well, IMO, cons are probably the best bet, but just about any CA cichlid could be seen as a major competitor and draw the attention of your fish. Spilirum for example, I would think, should work similar to a con, though IME, they have significantly less ability to depend space.

Jewel cichlid is another possibility though, IME, cons tend to have greater ability to defend from such tankmates.

Mbuna is another option, though a lot of people won't like that choice. It will be seen as a competitor, though probably not to the same extent as another CA would be. And it's something to consider, if your La ceiba end up killing or being completely intolerant of other CA.

I've often heard on fish fourums that if a convict was 10-12" it would dominate anything of it's size. While it would be one tough fish, no doubt, I don't really agree with this, at all. Convicts really don't have a bite compared to some of the larger CA and for the most part, their ability against larger fish has most to do with their small size. A female con, for example, is an almost impossible target for many large Veija --- virtually, "unfightable". But a few months back my 1 yr. old , 8" dovii X RT hybrid defeated my 3 yr. old pair of cons ( cons ended up hiding, held prisoner in a small cave). I seen it coming, though I really didn't think it would happen this soon. Certainly not the 1st time either, that I have had cons that couldn't stand up to some larger CA. All it takes is the ability to hit the target and the meaness and willingness to hit it at high speed. What really suprised me though is the hybrids ability to hit even the female con at top speed ----and of course no con is going to stand up to that. Anyways, my point is if your La Ceiba have the ability and the willingness to do it, don't be too suprised, if even cons don't end up working.


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

The big guy didn't make it. Frustrating. I can only hope nothing happens to the little guy now. I probably will not be ordering another fish from Jeff if this doesn't work.

I actually love cons so they would be my first choice anyway.

Thanks Bernie.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

I've never kept that species before, but I've bred other aggressive cichlid pairs before. It takes some trial and error to be successful.

It sounds to me like you may need to either keep a single pair (one male and one female) in a completely divided tank---with the male on one side, female on the other.

Or, once the male is significantly larger--using a partial divider, with the opening point only large enough for the female...but it's a bit risky, because it's easy to misjudge the size of the opening to make.

You could keep the other female in another tank, as a backup...in case the first one doesn't work out.

The target fish (convicts, etc.) suggestion would be the next option, though with extremely aggressive cichlids it usually only works in monster sized tanks.


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## Hanafuda (Mar 31, 2010)

Smart fish.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

A devider is definately a safer method. Many years ago I bred RD that way twice ---- I didn't trust my old aggressive female with the younger and somewhat smaller male. I placed a flat rock on the female side right beside the light difuser devider and enough eggs got fertilised to make huge batches of fry. Unfortunately for me, no LFS around here would even take them for free back then ----- claiming they take up valuable tank space for too long and the juvies/sub-adults end up being returned after they wiped out their tankmates.


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## terd ferguson (Jul 31, 2007)

Sorry about your loss chrispy. Your experience goes right along with mine. These are the wildest acting F1 Parachromis I've seen. My male hasn't shredded anybody, but he sure doesn't let anybody get in his strawberry pot either. For tankmates, I'd try other Parachromis. But you might be pushing it with four in a 125g. With guapotes, it's their teeth that do the most damage. When one sets his sights on another, well you know.

Good luck with the rest! :thumb:


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

Thanks guys.

Things have calmed down and the three of them seem to get along fine for now. The male is still quite a bit smaller then either female so I may have to wait a while until I see any breeding action. Once his fins heal in a couple days i will post some pics.


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## Bkeen (Mar 13, 2009)

Maybe they'll chill out. I love big pairs. I'm currently trying to get a pair out of six Nandopsis Haitiensis in my 125. Post up some pics of these monsters for us.


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

Sorry no pics yet.

I will be re homing the Snook tomorrow. The largest female has laid hundreds of eggs on a large flat rock and she and the snook are defending it. Not the pair I am hoping for at all. She is almost as large as the snook is now. I know I will have to wait for the male to grow some more before I can expect anything

On the up side this is the second time the larger female has laid eggs and she still seems very tolerant of the smaller female. She does not try and push for space but is happy with her corner. This could very easily change, especially if there is ever actual fry involved, but for now I am hopeful. Who knows how the male will act when he hits puberty though.

I will have some time to post pics tomorrow.


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## MetalHead06351 (Oct 3, 2007)

Gotta love the la ceibas, lol. They are just very agressive fish, I have an f0 in my 125g with fo loiselli and motaguensis and tank strain freddy, and i've noticed a few things about their behavior. They are always going to fight, you just need some other fish to spread out the agression. Convicts are a great idea, but don't always work- which was the case for me. When my parachromis's got around 1 1/2 inch larger than the convicts, they got eliminated. I've had great luck just keeping parachromis's together with a senegalus bichir. 2 Males seems to never work though. And as with most ca's dividers are a very good thing to have handy. Good luck with them, they are beautiful fish.


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

Thanks.

Where did you score a wild caught "La Ceiba"?


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## MetalHead06351 (Oct 3, 2007)

From Jeff Rapps


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

Wow I am surprised Jeff got rid of one since there are only 5 WC in existence.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

There were 5 adults according to Ken Davis (from a post of his on another site), but they did end up catching a few juvy's as well. They just couldn't tell them apart from the other _Parachromis_ at the small size.


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

Well sweet. If I get any fry we should breed them with yours.


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

So the project is officially a failure.Came home just now and the male is in numerous pieces.

There has been no signs of aggression since the other male died. Everything has been running smoothly. I swamped around the tank decor last night to give it more defined areas and added some Terra Cotta pots and everyone looked happy. The large female just seems to have the tendency to snap. I'm sure rearranging the tank was a factor as well. I didn't expect that much of a reaction. I should have been more organized from the beginning but this all happened pretty fast from idea to implementation. I can only assume that I would have had better luck if they were more similar in size and introduced younger. I may try again with the other female if I can get in on another order with the local club but I doubt that will happen any time soon. Who knows if a good male comes around I may give it another go despite the males source. I may will leave genetics to some one else.

I may move the larger male in to the 55g and try for a community with my remaining fish in my 125g.They have all lived together before in relative peace. I think she will end up alone in the long run and I don't want a 125g tank for a single fish that isn't larger then she will get. She sure is pretty though.


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## terd ferguson (Jul 31, 2007)

Sorry about that crispy. Wish We were closer together! I'm still looking for a Jeff Rapps female for my Ken Davis male (and still don't want to pay all that shipping from Jeff, lol  ).


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