# Black Belt has lost his mind



## amazonfriend (Aug 15, 2006)

Before I get rid of my best looking fish - - in my tank. I need a few opinions.... Pleaz!
I have a beautiful BB! I love his coloring! I am partial to my fish after taking care of them for a year or 3 years. 
but my BB has lost it.

I have a 120g, 6 ft long.

my bb (7-8in) is getting close to the size of my oscar (8-9), yep the bb is harrassing him. I have divided the tank.
I was going to rehome my O and keeping the bb. and get 2 smaller CA's. 
well... now my BB is chasing and harrassing my silver dollars and pleco... why would he fool w/ the pleco (14 in). the silver dollars are a large around as the BB.

I have had the BB 1 year and the other fish 3+yrs.

I have read up on the bb characteritics. 
they are usually ok w/ dither fish. why would he be picking on the nonterritorial fish??

He is darting into the screen at the SD's trying to get them (scratching up his mouth) and attacking the pleco if the pleco is on his side of the tank.

What are my chances of keeping the BB and being able to have other tankmates w/ him?

I really don't want a 1 fish tank.

SUGGESTIONS PLEASE

Thoughts

H E L P !! !! !!


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## amazonfriend (Aug 15, 2006)

Wise Cichlid Lovers - Please give some advice

let me change my question.
I have a BB, his is being very aggressive towards my O. I put in a divider. now he protects the divider and goes after my dither fish. The O 
If I remove the O and the divider what are the chances he will leave my SD's/pleco alone? The BB seems t be obsessed w/ the screen divider and anything else he sees. He was going after my hand today while I fixed the divider and his colors have changed becuase he is so upset.

he has roughed up my SD's

Advice Please


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## fishghost (Jul 27, 2003)

amazonfriend said:


> Before I get rid of my best looking fish - - in my tank. I need a few opinions.... Pleaz!
> I have a beautiful BB! I love his coloring! I am partial to my fish after taking care of them for a year or 3 years.
> but my BB has lost it.
> 
> ...


He's doing what most big territorial fish do. Unfortunately, either you keep him or get rid of him.

Keeping him means you will just have a "wet pet". If he's 8 inches and being a terror now, he's gonna dominate that tank when he gets in the 12 inch range. Does your pleco have a place to hide?


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## Chromedome52 (Jul 25, 2009)

I''ve never met a Black Belt that wasn't extremely aggressive when it is the dominant fish, but they do seem to be "smarter" than many others. I'd guess yours was just laying low because he wasn't yet big enough to take on the Oscar. Once he was close enough in size.....

I'd say that you are not likely to get him to co-exist with the Oscar. Oscars just don't have the necessary dentition to face off with most large Central Americans. Their mouth is more designed for sucking in prey to the throat, where it gets crushed by the pharyngeals.

Those are some big Silver Dollars, and I would guess that he is mistaking them for competitors due to their size and shape. The Pleco is a large, slow target, and it is in what the BB has now declared his territory. Like I said, I have yet to meet a mellow adult Black Belt.


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## amazonfriend (Aug 15, 2006)

thanks for your input!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I do realize I can't keep the O and the bb in the same tank.
I didn't to get rid of my O and then the bb still harrass everything in my tank. I have become partial to my O (had her 3+ yrs)

I want to make the best decision for my fish and me.

How do people keep huge fish 10-12in Red Devils, Midas and the live w/ other fish??
they are mean bullies too.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

THis is typical of the black belt and many others they're related to. I keep black belts, syspilum, fenestratus, bifas and argentea. They all have the potential to lose their mind and in a small tank like a 120 (small for them) they will take over and rule with a firm hand (fin)

As for your last question... They don't. Not unless they have huge confines. And those that say they do have not kept their heavy hitter long enough. In my experience most people get to the point where you're at and either give up on fish completely or get rid of the aggressor. Never having the experience of keeping fish that have the potential to reach 14-16 inches.

I have a 14' 1500 gallon tank full to the rim with heavy hitters. Size matters, but if just one of the fish I keep decides to lose it's mind there's the potential of a mass murder...

Get another tank and make a double stand, one on top of the other... the you can keep both.


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## amazonfriend (Aug 15, 2006)

Thank you Fish Guy!!!!!!!!!!

Nope - I won't give up keeping fish like some may do. I love to watch them swim. and cleaning the tank and stuff is my "me time" LOL. This is just a project for me to work out and get a happy tank again.

black belts, syspilum, fenestratus, bifas and argentea - Oh my Gosh, that must be a gorgeous tank!!! is that your 1500 gal? if not what size?

Long term I can't do 2 tanks. too much on my plate between the kids, dog shows, amazon parrot and tortoise; I stay pretty busy! and work full time. I have already thought about it and seriously considered it :wink:


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## Reiner (Jul 17, 2002)

2 tanks really takes not much more then 1 tank to clean if you have 2 hoses. I have a 180 gallon tank and a 80 gallon tank in my family room that I clean at the same time. I take out 50% water from the 180 and vacuum up the poop. Then I use masking tape to tape the hose onto the center brace of the tank and start filling the tank. While that is happening I take out 50% of the water from the 80 gallon tank and clean it. Once the 180 is full I take off the tape with the water still running holding a bucket I carry it over to the other end of the room and fill the 80 gallon tank. Filling the 80 takes about 10 minutes so doing 2 tanks only takes 10 more minutes then doing the 180 on it's own.


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## amazonfriend (Aug 15, 2006)

Ha

you have quiet the system down!!

I do something similar, I use a long hose and just run it out the front door to the yard.

do you add all of the chlorine remover to your tank before adding the water?
I have city water


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## amazonfriend (Aug 15, 2006)

My local Fish store has 2 Syspilum of nice size. 
I bet that would not work w/ my BB

HA


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## Reiner (Jul 17, 2002)

I'll add the chlorine remover during the fill. Been doing it for years without a problem ever. I use Los Angeles tap water and it has a lot of chlorine in it.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

DO NOT add synspilum with black belts! My big male synspilum and one of my female black belts are always causing problems :?

The fens are in a different tank and so are the argentea. There's four bifas, three black belts and one male synspilum in the 1500 together...


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## amazonfriend (Aug 15, 2006)

Fish Guy - advise taken :thumb:

wow those guys are in 1500 gal. wow!!
what type of tank set up is it? inside outside, in an office your home.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

I have a suggestion that should work for you.

Your BB is likely a dominant male...and he will fight any other fish for domination of his territory. He will likely fight any large cichlid that "challenges" his domination by being in the same tank. Here is what I would do.

Remove the oscar for sure, and probably the silver dollars (though you might be able to keep them). Set up one side of the tank for your BB (a large piece of driftwood,etc.)---then make the other side of the tank more cluttered with rockwork (lots of smaller hiding places).

Then add SMALLER but tough cichlids on the other side---you could add 2 or possibly 3 CA's such as Salvini, Convict, or Neets.

Another option would be adding a few Malawi Mbuna such as "Pseudotropheus" Estherae (Red Zebra), Melanochromis Auratus, Pseudotropheus Socolofi, Pseudotropheus Lombardoi "Kenyi," or most any of the aggressive Mbuna species. You should be able to find appropriate ones in the "mixed large Africans" tank at your LFS. I know many people will throw a fit over this suggestion, but it will work if you set up the tank correctly. Most of the aggressive Mbuna will be good choices because they are fast and agile--they will be able to out maneuver your BB among the rockwork. They also share similar dietary needs and water conditions. If you choose this option, the key to success for you is to keep an area too cluttered for the BB to actually catch the mbuna---but also an open area for the BB to dominate, and to not overstock the Mbuna like you would in a typical setup. Ideally you would also have all of the same sex, or a harem group of one species.

**There is the slim possibility that your fish won't tolerate other tankmates....but I've only ever had that happen once in all of my years of cichlid keeping. It isn't likely that you have one...it's much more rare than most people think. Likely you just need to add fish that your BB can't catch, and an area that's large enough to satisfy your BB.

If you are interested in more details of either option...just ask, I've done both many times and they usually work.


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## zambian (Aug 20, 2007)

Amazon friend, you have a pretty long aquarium. Take the advise that OLDCATFISH has given you. I have a Jack Dempsey in my aquarium who has cleaned me of my other cichlids. I have recently introduced a female Jack and things are not going too well.

I am looking at rearranging my tank and making it uncomfortable for the Jack to dominate the entire tank, then I'll introduce a few Malawis(yellow, Demasoni and a few other smaller fish) I am certain this will work, just make sure the your dominant fish has a good comfortable section of the tank.

Good luck!


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## amazonfriend (Aug 15, 2006)

Thanks!!

would the mbuna be over stressed? would they be able to swim arournd when the bb was happy w/ his big territory?


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Personally I would not mix the mbuna with the black belt. There's a definate possibility a big male red zebra could kill or stress to death the Black Belt. Plus... They're africans... :lol:


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## amazonfriend (Aug 15, 2006)

I have always heard you dont mix africans w/ SA or CA.
why? (I am learning all I can)

wow - I am surprised the African could stress out the BB. I keep learning knew things.
at this point I would be impressed to see someone chasing the BB - a taste of his own medicine - opcorn: but I wouldn't do that. :thumb:

fish drama - oh man!!


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## zambian (Aug 20, 2007)

Yeah, I know how you're feeling about your BB. I felt the same about my Jack Dempsey, I really needed someone to give him a taste of his own medicine, however, when I brought in my female and she beat the **** out of him, I was so pissed off.

I've had a divider there for over 10days and an a little scared about removing it. If you're looking at getting rid of your Oscar who you've had for 3years just to keep your Black Belt, you must really love your black belt, be careful what fish you introduce there, make sure it's certainly smaller fish so that they understand and grow to live with the dominance of your black belt.

The Learning Lives on!


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## RyanR (Apr 29, 2008)

Interestingly, a large black belt passed through the LFS recently. Same story. A big guy that dominated someone's 125g... and then a 180g... and the owner just had to trade him in. Fortunately, that one found a new home pretty quick.... usually, large cichlids languish at the LFS for a month, and then wind up in our house. :lol:

As you know, our BB is becoming a handful, too. I'm hoping to put her and our Texas in a new tank soon.

Good luck!
-Ryan


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## JerseyGiant88 (Jun 17, 2009)

if you want to keep more fish in your tank than the BB then take oldcatfish's advice. i was having a similar aggression problem but reversed with an extremely aggressive and territorial auratus who was dominating the whole tank. so, following oldcatfish's advice, i split my tank into two halves. one side was rock work for the mbunas and the other side was heavily planted along with some driftwood for my 2 JD's. it worked perfectly with my JD's holding down the planted side and the mbunas staying on the rock work side. there was still some friction when someone intruded onto the wrong side, but once the trespasser went back to their side everything would go back to normal again.

i would definitely give it a shot. just make sure you keep a close eye on your tank so you can intervene if anything starts to get too severe.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

amazonfriend, I sent you a PM.

Yes, a lot of people are against mixing mouthbrooders and substrate spawners. The key is understanding the behavior for each, and providing each with an appropriate area to dominate. And a little luck. I've done it dozens of times, and it never failed---as long as I set up the decor right, and didn't overstock the Africans. And the CA needs to be quite a bit larger than the mbuna.

Of course there are those rare fish that must be isolated...but it isn't as common as one would think. I've only ever had one.

I actually have a lot of experience with Malawi cichlids--even more than with CA's. I've had most of the more aggressive mbuna species too....but I've never had one that could outfight a large CA---out in the open. Near rockwork, then yes....they are just to fast & agile for the CA's.
And that includes the Red Zebra---I actually would try that species.


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## amazonfriend (Aug 15, 2006)

Very Interesting!!!

then I would be an official 'mixer'
hey - I could enjoy a mixed drink while watching my mixed tank. HA!!

I am doing a bit more research on my options. I have them narrowed down to 2.

for now I have set up a 29 gal and moved the BB out of the 125 gal. that is only a temporary place for the BB, too small for him. 
oh the O and SD were SO happy to swim from one end to the other!! The screen in the middle really upset my SD's, poor guys.

Thanks SO much for everybodies input! especially oldcatfish.
I am so discombobulated with my tank upset!!!

Thanks All!


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## zambian (Aug 20, 2007)

yeah, I've mixed CAs and Africans before. Forget what people are telling you, CAs and Africans have a meeting point for PH and temperate, just make sure you understand it and you'll be fine. I think it's somewhere around 7 - 7.5 for PH

I had a yellow electric and a Jewel with my Jack Dempsey and they lived just fine. The yellow would pick fights with my JD but the yellow is fine and knows when to run for cover and understands when it can get away with it.

The yellow was fine to watch, an avid digger and fun....if I were looking at breeding Jack Dempseys I would certainly get a 3" Yellow for my 6Inch dempsey.

It's all about the way you arrange your aquarium.


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