# Aquarium Sump Calculator



## AquaTester55 (Aug 16, 2006)

I have made a calculator coded through MS Excel 97-2003 format.

This calculator I call the Aquarium Sump Calculator or ASC. It helps you calculate the minimum size sump for your tank through dimensions and many automated calculations.

The reason I made this calculator is because I see all to often, people recommending these HUGE sumps, such as 150 gal sump for a 240 gal tank. WAAAAYYYY over kill.

So I hope the calculator helps.

I have yet to decide if I want to "sell" this calculator for cheap money due to the economy and the very little money coming in.

I have uploaded a demo version which has limited calculations.

http://www.innovationlandscaping.com/pictures/Book1.xls

Please let me know what you think of it.

- Justin


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## StevenAkaProek (Jan 20, 2009)

It's real good, great work

and not to blow your bubble, but there is already a free one

http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/sump.php


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

AquaTester55 said:


> ....
> 
> The reason I made this calculator is because I see all to often, people recommending these HUGE sumps, such as 150 gal sump for a 240 gal tank. WAAAAYYYY over kill.
> ....
> ...


Not way overkill at all, except in the very limited terms of what is required to prevent flooding in the event of power failure. In fact up to a limit, the bigger the sump the better. However once a system reaches a total of 5000 gallons, there is no advantage in terms of water stability in making it bigger. So, a simple way to calculate the ideal size of a sump is to subtract the gallonages of the tanks that will be connected to it from 5000. One guy I know with a concrete slab floor, jackhammered out a section of it, dug it out, lined it with pond liner and then built his tank racks over it.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> The reason I made this calculator is because I see all to often, people recommending these HUGE sumps, such as 150 gal sump for a 240 gal tank. WAAAAYYYY over kill.


There's nothing wrong with overkill for a sump. Those that recommend large sumps do so because it's a way to increase the volume of water in the system, not because it's the minimum size needed.


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## AquaTester55 (Aug 16, 2006)

Hi all,

Thanks for the replys.



> It's real good, great work
> 
> and not to blow your bubble, but there is already a free one
> 
> http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/sump.php


I have seen this calculator and To be honest, I was not very impressed at all. It doesn't even take piping into consideration nor does it take the water level in the sump into consideration.

This calculator does NOT take total aquarium volume in to the calculations. Its only L*W and does not account of the height. What this means, is if you have a custom tank with dimensions 48x24x108, odd size, but that sump calc will not tell you the proper size for the total aquarium volume (gallons) versus the biological media capacity of the sump filter... Mine will.

This was is the exact flaw I am working on resolving with my calculator. Mine will also take the complete volume into consideration. It will let you know if a sump is low on total volume, low on bio capacity, or if its good to use.

I will let you know when the new version is up. VERSION 1.15 2009.



> Not way overkill at all, except in the very limited terms of what is required to prevent flooding in the event of power failure. In fact up to a limit, the bigger the sump the better.


I run into this statement all the time. The fact of the matter is, canisters with much smaller volumes handle tanks the same size a sump is on that was told to be built with over 5 times the bio media.

Example. 240 gallon aquarium. 3 Eheim 2080s. 36 liters / 900 GPH. The rule of thumb I have heard is 1/3 tank volume capacity. This calculates out to a 80 gallon sump. An 80 gallon sump can hold over 300 liters of bio media. This is why I say....OVER KILL. WAY OVER KILL!

Some people may want to have a HUGE sump just because. There is really no reason for it but peace of mind I guess.

When new members come to ask about what size sump, they get told these enormous sump numbers. I wan't to limit this as much as possible.

When you tell someone this, you are telling them that sumps are horrible at bio filtration.



> There's nothing wrong with overkill for a sump. Those that recommend large sumps do so because it's a way to increase the volume of water in the system, not because it's the minimum size needed.


I ran into this statement as well. If you have a proper filtration setup, you don't need to increase the volume in the system. There is no need for it. I can see if you have a smaller tank, 55-75 gallon maybe with salt and you want the parameters to stay within spec longer and better, but with much larger tanks, you don't need this.


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## AquaTester55 (Aug 16, 2006)

> I have seen this calculator and To be honest, I was not very impressed at all. It doesn't even take piping into consideration nor does it take the water level in the sump into consideration.
> 
> This calculator does NOT take total aquarium volume in to the calculations. Its only L*W and does not account of the height. What this means, is if you have a custom tank with dimensions 48x24x108, odd size, but that sump calc will not tell you the proper size for the total aquarium volume (gallons) versus the biological media capacity of the sump filter... Mine will.


I wan't to add some more. Which is very important.

That calculator will give you the "Gallon" of the sump. This by no means tells you that it is "safe" for the siphon volume which comes from the aquarium during a pump shut down.

Believe it or not, gallons is not just gallons when considering this. Its the Length and Width and Height dimensions to consider and not the gallons. You are probubly saying, well, thats how you find out the gallons, your nuts.

Well here is an example. Lets say that you need atleast 6" of water volume in your sump to keep the pump running.

A sump that is 24x12x16 = 19.81 gallons. 
6" water level = 7.43 gallons. This means you can have 12.38 gallons (exactly) left in the sump for the siphon volume. Ofcourse exact volumes like this mean trouble.

A sump that is 20x12x19.2 = 19.81 gallons.
6" water level = 6.19 gallons. This means you have 13.62 gallons (exactly) left in the sump for the siphon volume.

A sump that is 20x18x12.8 = 19.81 gallons
6" water level = 9.21 gallons. This means you have 10.6 gallons (exactly) left in the sump for the siphon volume.

So there you have it. I would not trust that calculator because it can lead to trouble. My calculator will be as precise as I can get it. It will tell you the dimensions along with the gallons. You can even type in your own dimensions of a sump to see if that size will work.

Eventually, this calculator will be able to give you multiple dimensions for a certain gallon sump for better results.

I am also working on allowing the calculator to tell you how high you should fill the sump for the "initial start" to help reduce agravation by getting the sump height correct.

It will also give you a link to the "design" for that particular sump size. After all, the bio volumes are for a specific sump design.

A new feature which I just added, which needs some tuning, is how much bio volume is needed in a custom sump for a given aquarium volume. This is very important.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> If you have a proper filtration setup, you don't need to increase the volume in the system. There is no need for it.


Larger sumps than minimum have benefits in the freshwater world as well. So, I stick by my statement 'go bigger, if you can'. I never said 'need'.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

AquaTester55 said:


> ....I run into this statement all the time......


 The reason you run into the statement all the time is because it has been well researched by professional aquarists working in public aquariums, and because it "holds water" for the experienced aquarium hobbyist too. There are reasons aplenty not to make a sump the ideal size -- space, energy consumption, cost, access to other parts of the life support system for the tank, etc. Sometimes those real world reasons dictate no sump at all.

You have been working on a tool to determine a  minimum size sump based on a few of those variables, not the ideal size which has already been determined as a total of 5000 gallons in the system, something that in home aquarium terms translates to a more relevant "bigger is better".

The older calculator is probably better at determining the minimum size to prevent flooding than yours, because it's based on the tank "footprint" not its volume.


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## AquaTester55 (Aug 16, 2006)

> You have been working on a tool to determine a minimum size sump based on a few of those variables, not the ideal size which has already been determined as a total of 5000 gallons in the system, something that in home aquarium terms translates to a more relevant "bigger is better".


First, this calculator does not tell you the absolute minimum size. This will tell you the size that will fit your aquarium. Just because this calc display sizes smaller than what everyone else goes by, does not mean there is no room for error. I have designed the calculator to calculate a more than safe sump size that will filter an aquarium slightly larger.

The sump size is based, Length, Width, Height, Gallons, Bio Media Volume, beio media volume per gallon, Mechanical Volume, Continuos Sump volume, Aquarium Siphon Volume, Piping Volume, physical pump height, Overflow volume, and I will be adding more such as flow volume.

I wouldn't say its only a "few" variables. That one calculator which people seem to be using on the reef site does not take even half of those variables into consideration. Nor does anyone building a sump when they use the 1/3 rule.

This calc will also calculate above 5000 gallons.

BTW, I have never had an issue with, nor has so many others in the hobby, had issues with their aquarium's parameters due to its size with proper filtration and care.



> The reason you run into the statement all the time is because it has been well researched by professional aquarists working in public aquariums.


It may have been research, but the head loss for a 90 degree fitting has also been researched and EVERYONE on EVERY forum says you add 1ft of head for each 90* fitting.

Do you agree with that statement? Because its 100% wrong. Using the "rule" of thumb which is 1/3 the capacity is a horrible way of figuring the size. That rule is too "loose" just like the rule of thumb for the 90* fittings is too "loose".



> Larger sumps than minimum have benefits in the freshwater world as well. So, I stick by my statement 'go bigger, if you can'. I never said 'need'.


What are these benefits? I don't see them and in my many years of being in the hobby, never have seen these benefits that people don't talk about...


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> What are these benefits?


More stable water parameters. You essentially end up with an understocked tank.

Note the example you gave.



> The reason I made this calculator is because I see all to often, people recommending these HUGE sumps, such as 150 gal sump for a 240 gal tank. WAAAAYYYY over kill.


Wouldn't you agree that if an individual 'overstocked' a 240 gallon tank with 300 gallons worth of fish, it's 
now within a 400 gallon system? That's the benefit right there. More stable water parameters and more 
room for error. And in the real world, most of us push the stocking limits. And even if they behave 
and don't push the stocking limits, now you've got 240 gallons worth of fish in a 400 gallon system.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, really, I'm not. I've built several and have done these calculations 
partly to figure out how to get the biggest I could get in the space that I had. Water volume is very 
important. I don't see how that can be argued with.

But, I admire your ability to put this together and wish you well with it. I really think that you *should *
market this as a minimum required sump, but asterisk it with 'bigger is always better' footnote. I 
don't see that that would devalue the spreadsheet.

This is just meant as constructive feedback, so please don't take it any other way. I'll go away now


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

I do think the calculation program is deceptive when it says the result is the correct size for a sump rather than admitting it's the minimum size that probably will not overflow, although during a power failure, or a problem with tank plumbing, the "correct" size sump may be undersized for even that minimal need. If you don't add in some extra margin in this program as it suggests, the sump will fill right up to the limit and any water motion will be spilling water out while the power is on. Major spill if the power goes off!

I also think it's wrong to ignore and try to discredit real research that has been done in the aquarium field by professionals, just in order to promote interest and potential sales in a product that may be more hype than help. Aquatester55 would be joining a long line of promotors of aquarium snake oil and nowhere near the first to prey on our hobby. I vote to disable the link to his/her dubious product.


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## AquaTester55 (Aug 16, 2006)

> I do think the calculation program is deceptive when it says the result is the correct size for a sump rather than admitting it's the minimum size that probably will not overflow, although during a power failure, or a problem with tank plumbing, the "correct" size sump may be undersized for even that minimal need. If you don't add in some extra margin in this program as it suggests, the sump will fill right up to the limit and any water motion will be spilling water out while the power is on. Major spill if the power goes off!


I don't have much time right now but wanted to reply to you.

The calculator is designed with a custom "error margin". Its defaulted to 5 gallons. You can have this as large as you want.

No this calculator will not give you the absolute minimum, meaning, water filling to the brim.

This calculator takes lots into consideration so that during a power failure, it will be able to handle more than enough of the volume of water which will enter the sump.


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## AquaTester55 (Aug 16, 2006)

Once I finish the new version, I will upload the full file so that others can "beta test" it and see for them selfs how accurate and safe this calc can be.

That one calc on the reef forum, IS closer to the absolue minimum. Its funny because people don't argue over the results of that calc but they argue over the results over mine which has a much higher margin of safty built into it.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

Hmm. This is a scary thread.

My only feedback on the calculator is that the colors hurt my eyes. Its hard to look at. But I also opened it in OpenOffice so maybe they look different in Excel. And yes this is a serious comment.

As for the sump size discussion, just a few points. I have no idea how these calculators work in terms of coming up with a sump size, and quite honestly I am not interested, but I think there are a few points that have already been made that are worth repeating.

In a calculator you can't take into account practical considerations. I know this is an obvious statement, but if you took a poll, I bet you most of the people who have sumps calculate the size to use based on the space they have available. For example when I was going to install a sump I got a 29G tank for my 125. The problem was it didn't fit into my stand. So I had to go to a 20G sump. Other than making a custom sized tank I didn't have any other choice. I only say this to point out the extent to which a calculator can be useful and to say that I don't know how scientific people are in choosing sump size - or any filtration for that matter.

As for the size of the sump, I think size does matter. Prov already made this point well. When stocking a tank we take into consideration the amount of fish that can be in the tank based on the tank size, biologically speaking. I don't see why that same rule wouldn't apply to a sump size.

At the same time I think I also understand the point Aquatester is trying to make. Let me know if I'm wrong. By example, if I had a 125G tank and I had a large canister that was providing adequate filtration, and then I add 3 more canisters, have a really gained anything in terms of filtration by adding the "extra" filters? To that I would say the only thing gained is margin. Margin being defined as the difference between the bio load of the fish and the filtration capability of the canisters .

I think the same thing is being said about the sump. More water and media volume means more margin. As for what that margin gives you I am not sure. I think that is the real issue.

One last point. Based on some of the comments made about water volume, and specifically referring to the description of step 4 in the Directions of the calculator - a sump does not need to have a safety water margin. You can strategically position the intake of the pump to accomplish this - of course this means the fail safe is the pump potentially running dry, which can be a bad thing. But I always like to throw that out there as an option.


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## AquaTester55 (Aug 16, 2006)

> Wouldn't you agree that if an individual 'overstocked' a 240 gallon tank with 300 gallons worth of fish, it's
> now within a 400 gallon system? That's the benefit right there. More stable water parameters and more
> room for error. And in the real world, most of us push the stocking limits. And even if they behave
> and don't push the stocking limits, now you've got 240 gallons worth of fish in a 400 gallon system.


I do agree. I took this into serious consideration when programing the calc.

When you provide the dimensions equaling to 240 gallons, the calc is programed so that there is atleast a bio volume of 53 liters available in the sump at all times. That is a lot. .225 liters per gallon is the figure I go by and thats a lot too. This calculates to 11 liters for a 55 gallon tank when you could have 5 liters or less.

The more aquarium volume you input into the calculator, the more bio volume the calculator is figuring and the larger the sump it tells you to use.

Low Vol and Low Bio are two seporate phrases that you will see on the next version that will come up when a sump is not sufficient. You can have a sump with enough volume to hold water, but it may not be able to hold enough bio media. This is all coded into the calculator



> My only feedback on the calculator is that the colors hurt my eyes. Its hard to look at. But I also opened it in OpenOffice so maybe they look different in Excel. And yes this is a serious comment.


which colors? On my screens with Excel, it looks fine but I will change it if you let me know which colors are hurting the eyes.



> bet you most of the people who have sumps calculate the size to use based on the space they have available.


I appriciate this comment. I really do. This is the exact reason why I build the calculator. I have seen many recommend a sump that for 1) is way to large for their tank and 2) most of the time can't fit under their aquarium or 3) can't afford it. This is where canisters can be cheaperin the short and long run.

Eventaully, the calc will not display all the tank sizes in a table like it is now. It will show you 3-5 tank sizes instead. It will pick the sizes from a database in the excel sheet. This is so that there is more room for a custom setup.



> As for the size of the sump, I think size does matter. Prov already made this point well. When stocking a tank we take into consideration the amount of fish that can be in the tank based on the tank size, biologically speaking. I don't see why that same rule wouldn't apply to a sump size.


Already taken into consideration.. May need some tuning, but already in code.



> One last point. Based on some of the comments made about water volume, and specifically referring to the description of step 4 in the Directions of the calculator - a sump does not need to have a safety water margin. You can strategically position the intake of the pump to accomplish this - of course this means the fail safe is the pump potentially running dry, which can be a bad thing. But I always like to throw that out there as an option.


There does need to be a safty margin. This is due to a couple reasons.
1) Media takes up space and will displace water, so calculating the sump size to the exact gallons won't work. After installing media, the sump volume has now been decreased.
2) If I had not included this, the calculator would calculate to the exact sump size. This means, a 90-95% chance of overflow. Entering "0" will do this. Its defaulted to 5 gallons. I will be talking to CPR, the makers of Bio Bale and to some Bio bale companies to figure out how much volume they take up when inserted into a specific volume chamber.



> I also think it's wrong to ignore and try to discredit real research that has been done in the aquarium field by professionals, just in order to promote interest and potential sales in a product that may be more hype than help. Aquatester55 would be joining a long line of promotors of aquarium snake oil and nowhere near the first to prey on our hobby. I vote to disable the link to his/her dubious product.


Think again if you are thinking I came up with these numbers out of my ass. I have done the research as well. I am using bio volume figures from commercial companies and inputing them into my calculator.

I do not appreciate your last paragraph at all. I am in no way trying to promote a product that could lead to disaster.

I have never said that its the final design. I am still inputing data and tuning calculations to make this the most reliable sump calculator to which I have seen yet. The final version won't be out for some time. This is another reason why only a "DEMO" version I up for grabs. This limits your calculations.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

AquaTester55 said:


> Think again if you are thinking I came up with these numbers out of my ass. I have done the research as well. I am using bio volume figures from commercial companies and inputing them into my calculator.
> 
> I do not appreciate your last paragraph at all. I am in no way trying to promote a product that could lead to disaster.
> 
> I have never said that its the final design. I am still inputing data and tuning calculations to make this the most reliable sump calculator to which I have seen yet. The final version won't be out for some time. This is another reason why only a "DEMO" version I up for grabs. This limits your calculations.


 OK, so your numbers come from using the advertising claims of various commercial companies, rather than from science and empirical data. That may explain why this all seems like hype and self-promotion. You need to factor in the tank foot print to ensure you don't come up with a result suggesting a tank that won't fit under the stand, although some people do use remotely located sumps, even 100 and 300 gallon Rubbermaid stock tanks or large rigid ponds. You need to factor in a lot more practical variables and put a lot less emphasis on the advertised biomedia performance claims. You need to accept the constructive criticism you've received, and put some real world caveats in the program. Even Mapquest and GoogleEarth do this.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

AquaTester55 said:


> > which colors?
> 
> 
> For me it is the high contrast of colors - the black with the dark blue in combination with the light blue. But like I said I can only open it in OpenOffice, so its possible in Excel its ok.
> ...


Maybe its just definition of terms. I think what you are talking about is media displacement. I thought you meant a margin of water so as not to flood the main tank.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

boredatwork said:


> ....Maybe its just definition of terms. I think what you are talking about is media displacement. I thought you meant a margin of water so as not to flood the main tank.


 I did notice he/she was talking about media displacement and pretty much not being concerned with protecting the pump from running dry, flooding due to power outages, etc. The crazy thing about that is that the biomedia ought to be in the tower above the sump, or at least in the air space above the normal water line in the sump, and so it is displacing air, not water. Bioballs, biobales, etc. are all designed to work in the "dry" part of a wet/dry biological filtration system.

Generally the way you determine that safe water level to avoid flooding in an off mode is to do a live test. Use a minimal amount of water to operate the system. Turn the power off. Wait. Then fill the sump up to your comfortable high level, perhaps an inch or two below the rim. Restart the system and once the water level in the sump stabilizes, mark that level and when you do water changes, refill to the mark but not over.

Water changes are one of several reasons for having as large a sump as practical. Some fish behaviors (breeding, pairing, and so on) can be interrupted by water changes and water level changes in the tank. Removing and replacing water from the sump can largely prevent that kind of disturbance to the fishes' territory. If the sump is minimal, you can't do a water change without lowering the water level in the tank, or running the pump dry. Another reason is the increase in the air/water interface, an important zone in determining carrying capacity of a system. And it is not just the biomedia that possesses colonies of beneficial bacteria. It is also the walls and floor of the tank and sump, so increasing the volume of the sump also increases those biologically active sites.


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## AquaTester55 (Aug 16, 2006)

> pretty much not being concerned with protecting the pump from running dry, flooding due to power outages, etc.


You have not read any of my posts have you? Flooding, this is the "siphon volumep Pump from running dry, this is the "Sump water level". different pumps will need different water heights depending on the plumbing and situation.



> The crazy thing about that is that the biomedia ought to be in the tower above the sump, or at least in the air space above the normal water line in the sump, and so it is displacing air, not water. Bioballs, biobales, etc. are all designed to work in the "dry" part of a wet/dry biological filtration system.


Some bio media can be in the water depending on the design, so I try to add a little margin for error with this.


> Generally the way you determine that safe water level to avoid flooding in an off mode is to do a live test. Use a minimal amount of water to operate the system. Turn the power off. Wait. Then fill the sump up to your comfortable high level, perhaps an inch or two below the rim. Restart the system and once the water level in the sump stabilizes, mark that level and when you do water changes, refill to the mark but not over.


This is what you do when you can't comprehend simple mathematics.



> Water changes are one of several reasons for having as large a sump as practical. Some fish behaviors (breeding, pairing, and so on) can be interrupted by water changes and water level changes in the tank. Removing and replacing water from the sump can largely prevent that kind of disturbance to the fishes' territory. If the sump is minimal, you can't do a water change without lowering the water level in the tank, or running the pump dry.


This is a special case and would need a special size sump. This is not true for all situations. There is no reason why you can't still use the calculator to determin bio volume.

You can also shut the pump off during water changes. You don't need to keep it running when doing a water change. Sump size is personal prefrence above the safe sump size.



> Another reason is the increase in the air/water interface, an important zone in determining carrying capacity of a system.


You will get more than enough surface agitation in the sump along with the output to the aquarium. You don't design a sump or aquarium system taking into consideration for the "cross section surface area" of the waters surface for oxygen exchange. This happends very easily and efficiently without use huge sumps.



> And it is not just the biomedia that possesses colonies of beneficial bacteria. It is also the walls and floor of the tank and sump


It also everything inside the aquarium. You NEVER count the size of the tank. Why? Because its not porous and holds VERY VERY VERY VERY little bacteria if any compaired to bio media. This is a BS comment.



> so increasing the volume of the sump also increases those biologically active sites.


In your mind, you will want to add as many glass/acrylic seporation walls in the sump as possible because you are counting on bacteria growing on them. You NEVER count on non porous media to cultivate bacteria.


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## AquaTester55 (Aug 16, 2006)

> OK, so your numbers come from using the advertising claims of various commercial companies, rather than from science and empirical data.


Comes from commercial companies running their systems on large tanks. Real world data, not just advertised claims.



> That may explain why this all seems like hype and self-promotion.


Not at all but you have a closed mind so keep thinking that. I am not here to convince you.



> You need to factor in the tank foot print to ensure you don't come up with a result suggesting a tank that won't fit under the stand,


This is actually a good idea. Will code it immediatly. This is another reason why I made the calc, just never coded to compare the foot print of the aquarium vs the sump.



> You need to factor in a lot more practical variables and put a lot less emphasis on the advertised biomedia performance claims.


There is no advertised bio performance claims. Only the amount of bio media that is "suggested". I say suggested because depending on the real world situation, you may need more be this will be rare. After all, basic calculators like mine is just programed with simple code, it doesn't have a brain and does not know what you are thinking of doing with your aquarium, so you need to think about what you really need, but this will give you a very healthy starting point if you are doing something special.



> You need to accept the constructive criticism you've received, and put some real world caveats in the program. Even Mapquest and GoogleEarth do this.


I am accepting proper suggestions. I have accepted a few through this one thread. I am ignoring other BS comments though.

So far I have 7 suggestions in my list in excel which I will be putting into the calculations.


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## AquaTester55 (Aug 16, 2006)

> For me it is the high contrast of colors - the black with the dark blue in combination with the light blue. But like I said I can only open it in OpenOffice, so its possible in Excel its ok.


I am actually working on a computer with open office. I will take a look. I have also noticed from computer to computer, using MS Excell, the colors will be slighty different. So I will work on the colors.



> Maybe its just definition of terms. I think what you are talking about is media displacement. I thought you meant a margin of water so as not to flood the main tank


I took both into consideration. I am taking a lot of variables into consideration.


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## iceblue (Apr 27, 2004)

I'm sorry but I too see no practical use for this calculator much less so if I had to pay to use it. For the average Joe out their who just wants to get a trickle filter/sump because he heard it was a good idea he would only need to measure the inside dimensions of his stand and then go to a retailer or online and find a pre-engineered wet/dry filter that will fit and be capable of handling his tank..

For us results driven Do It Yourselfers, we usually put a lot of time and effort in finding out how we can exploit advantages for any given project. The one big advantage for having a sump is getting as much water capacity out of it as we can for our freshwater tanks whether inside or outside the stand. I'll not get into the reasons why. There are hundreds of members and thousands of posts that logically espouse the benefits. I don't see any down side to it that would make me want to minimize this aspect of a sump.

Here in is where I think your calculator may not be that beneficial for that new person coming into the DIY aspect of the hobby. They may take it as gospel when they really should be thinking "outside the box" and asking questions.


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## AquaTester55 (Aug 16, 2006)

> The crazy thing about that is that the biomedia ought to be in the tower above the sump, or at least in the air space above the normal water line in the sump, and so it is displacing air, not water. Bioballs, biobales, etc. are all designed to work in the "dry" part of a wet/dry biological filtration system.


I also want to add this too. You obveously do not know this and don't factor this in. You have not provided the mathematical equation for figuring how much water will be siphoned from the tank during a pump shut down so you obveously do not know the sump is the correct size without it flooding, this is with your "see if it floods" procedure.

BTW, your GPS example means nothing to this conversation and is completly different.

When the sump fills up with water from the aquarium and the plumbing during a pump shut down, the water is going to start taking up space where the bio media is located. This means that the bio media is not going to allow the sump to hold as much water as it could have without the media.

This is why the calc will take the volume the bio media takes up into consideration.


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## zugbug (Dec 12, 2005)

I dont know if I dare jump in on this discussion as it seems a bit prickly...but here it goes. I had the opportunity to take a behind the scenes tour of the Cincinnati aquarium (well worth the extra $15). I got to see first hand the filtration set ups they use and the sumps are quite small in relation to the tank, but the biomedia towers are huge on the biggest shark tank it was 20 feet high.....this was mostly air/biomedia/water not flooded. So there was very little of what we call sump areas just enough to give a flooded suction on the pumps. So maybe they know something that we can learn from


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

I love keeping all equipment in the sump... heaters, filters (like socks or other mechanical filtration), bio-media (bioballs or scrubbies),etc. I often keep fish fry and fresh water plants in there as well. My cichlid tanks benefit greatly from larger sumps...

On my reef tank, I have the mechanical filter pad, the bioballs, the heater, the return pump, the pump to the skimmer, the return from the skimmer, a frag rack, compact fluorescent light, macro-algae, and snails.

To me, the sump is the ugly to the show piece up top.

Some minimum or fish person recommended size for JUST bioballs and water volume seems to be contrary to EVERY reason I like sumps.

The link on reefcentral is NOT showing the recommended sump size by the by... it is showing the amount of overflow to expect when you lose power and I can tell you, it is VERY accurate. I make sure to leave 10g of room available on my setup since the calculator says 9.6g and when I shut off the power, it is perfect.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

zugbug said:


> I dont know if I dare jump in on this discussion as it seems a bit prickly...but here it goes. I had the opportunity to take a behind the scenes tour of the Cincinnati aquarium (well worth the extra $15). I got to see first hand the filtration set ups they use and the sumps are quite small in relation to the tank, but the biomedia towers are huge on the biggest shark tank it was 20 feet high.....this was mostly air/biomedia/water not flooded. So there was very little of what we call sump areas just enough to give a flooded suction on the pumps. So maybe they know something that we can learn from


That's exactly why you'll have trouble doing this with a formula. Every application is different. Of course, 
if you're filtering huge tanks in a public aquarium, the rules change dramatically. They've tailored the 
filtration to the tank and occupants. You've already got a huge tank that's going to dwarf any sump. And 
you'd never invest the dollars and make the space to build huge sumps in a public aquarium. To them, 
biofiltration is what they're obviously focused on. Adding 1% more volume to a huge tank by building a 
larger sump wouldn't make sense or provide much benefit. They've already got the volume and need 
the bio. To use that example and say then that it doesn't make sense or provide benefit for home 
hobbyists, well, I think then the thinking is too narrow.



> Here in is where I think your calculator may not be that beneficial for that new person coming into the DIY aspect of the hobby. They may take it as gospel when they really should be thinking "outside the box" and asking questions.


I've got to agree. I've seen it happen in other areas of the hobby. A newcomer reads one article 
that looks authoritative and starts to run with it before asking experienced hobbyists. I still think it 
should be offered as a guideline, not the gospel.


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## AquaTester55 (Aug 16, 2006)

> I dont know if I dare jump in on this discussion as it seems a bit prickly...but here it goes. I had the opportunity to take a behind the scenes tour of the Cincinnati aquarium (well worth the extra $15). I got to see first hand the filtration set ups they use and the sumps are quite small in relation to the tank, but the biomedia towers are huge on the biggest shark tank it was 20 feet high.....this was mostly air/biomedia/water not flooded. So there was very little of what we call sump areas just enough to give a flooded suction on the pumps. So maybe they know something that we can learn from


Thanks for the input.

This is an area where no preprogramed calc, such as mine can lend a helping hand. I can only imagine the amount of gallons they are filtering and the bio load they have in the shark tank.

Calcs can not work for everyone or for every situation. Its impossible. Unless you have experience in every single department, there is no way someone could make a calc for that.

The ASC is for your standard aquarium owner. The calculator will have its limits and it will be along the lines of 1000 gallon aquarium or less. Any larger and I will be playing with fire.



> That's exactly why you'll have trouble doing this with a formula. Every application is different. Of course,
> if you're filtering huge tanks in a public aquarium, the rules change dramatically. They've tailored the
> filtration to the tank and occupants. You've already got a huge tank that's going to dwarf any sump. And
> you'd never invest the dollars and make the space to build huge sumps in a public aquarium. To them,
> ...


Agreed. I have no intension for the calc to be used in a situation such as that. like I said earlier, there are certain situations where the calc can't be used at all, at there are areas where it can give you a starting point to work with, other normal conditions, it can give you the correct sump eventually once I am finished with it.

I hope everyone understands that I am not trying to make this calc work for every darn situation out there. Its impossible. This calculator is only to be used (once finished) for your standard aquarium hobby and not for area which need extra thinking on the actual variables at play such as Local fish shops, public aquariums, in home extra large aquariums.


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## AquaTester55 (Aug 16, 2006)

I have done a tremendous amount of recoding to this calculator. Taking even more into consideration, adding saftey equations and figures and defaults. I am working on the ASC Introduction and the ASC Descriptions and Explanations pages so users better understand how the calculator works below the surface.

I am wanting to make some more graphics so the calculator doesn't look so much like..well....cells.

I am doing research for denitrification as well. I have drawn up some sumps that can perform denitrification with adjustable flow rates. I will eventually be including this into the calculator as well.

Here is a picture of the new version.


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## AquaTester55 (Aug 16, 2006)

I am adding an area for "Additional Volume". This is where you can add a specific amount of additional water to your entire filtration/aquarium system. So if you would like to keep an additional 50 gallons of water in your filter for more stable water parameters, enter the number "50" into this area.

Hint: Keeping the water level in the sump low while adding additional volume will make the calculator pick out a sump with a very large foot print (Length/Width). Although, rasing the water level in the sump will allow the ASC to pick out a sump with a smaller foot print.

The ASC can still pick out a standard sump size when performing this function. Although, the database goes up to a 240 Gallon sump, the database is limited and the ASC may turn up a result message saying "No Standard Sump Sizes Available in Database".


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## Rivermud (Nov 22, 2004)

I'd like to first say that after reading this post I'm a bit flabberghasted. I can personally state that personal jibes being taken in this thread do nothing to convince me to buy or use a product. McDaphnia may have come acrossed as harsh in his opinion of the calculator but his opinion was quite valid, especially in this hobby. This thread is for DIY projects and ideas and as such we are normally pushing the limits of everything we have as the base of our hobby. Initially the tool IMHO was definitely a "minimum" tool rather than an optimal tool.

The definition of optimal in the case of aquaria follows along the lines of prevention. Basically overkill in most cases is a solid practice because we do not want to ever have the chance of being unprepared. In the instance of having "too much filtration" I can honestly say there is no such thing unless you cannot support the bactirial colony and have a devastating die off of the colony. Having extra canisters for example allows you to rotate your cleaning while not killing your entire colony since you still have canisters running with thriving colonies. A sump is also useful for a whole lot more than biological and to a lesser extent mechanical filtration. Being a place for pumps, heaters, plants, fry, injured fish, or whatever else you can think of, makes them highly useful.

Earlier an example was given earlier about overfilling the sump. I did not appreciate the comments that followed. Filling a sump in the most intelligent manner definitely involves physical checking and doing a power off run. If you simply trust mathmatics for this I can guarantee you will eventually get bit.

You have since modified your calculator to now add more volume witht eh addition of a new field to enter the extra gallonage into. This pretty much makes the calculator the "useless" tool it waas thought to be in the first place imho yet again. First, if you know how many gallons you want your sump to be you don't need the calculator. Second, if you build everything to the minimum you are bound to get hurt by it. Third, this calculator will be used by people who need more than the minimum and it will be called gospel and add yet another myth to the hooby which has WAY to many in it in the first place.

While I understand your desire to make a tool that in your mind is useful, your thought process goes against the practiced, tried and true methods developed over time with skilled aquariasts and proven research. Bio media and bio load can never be an exact science because it changes per hobbyist. to try to contain this in a nice little package is counter productive. There have been thousands of threads through the years on this forum discussing issues regarding fish and aquarium health directly related to bio load. Please do not be the cause of the next hundred. A sump is simply one tool we use to provide for our hobby, we do not need min maxing adding to the myths we already have


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

This topic has obviously moved beyond fishkeeping and into a discussion about the software and merits of this new "product".

Thread closed.


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