# Seeking Advice/Discusion on species selection - 190 gal



## Dimidio11 (Sep 3, 2017)

Briefly about me. Former owner of a LFS that specialized in African Cichlids, Saltwater fish and Reef tanks.

My dad was the breeder, with 1000 Sqft of space designated for his breeding operation. Tanks were stacked 3 high, and he would suply our shop along with numerous other shops in the Inland Empire and Las Vegas. I loved Africans, but my hobby turned to Corals and Coral Propagation in the later years. The economy crash led to me closing the shop, and I moved to Phoenix in 2009. Recently I picked up a tank and decided I wanted to do an African Cichlid setup.

The Tank: 60" L x 24" W x 30" T

Filtration: Wet dry. I will be placing the wet Dry into a tank (elevated). Water will flow through the Wet Dry, then into the tank, following a path that will allow a fuller chamber that will allow cannister to function before it returns to the Aquarium.

I plan Sand (Coral, aragonite, or PFS or a mix of such). I am collecting Lace Rock with some slate. Shells and caves for the bottom in abundance. The Roc cover wil create numerous small caves and territories sloping down to an open sand area on the end of the tank.

Currently my list of desired fish is abundant. This is my only aquarum planned and I want them ALLLLL .. lol. I am not concerned with breeding nor selling babies so cross breeding risks i almost a non issue

MBUNA:
Saulosi or MSobo - small group 1M/4F
Polit - 1/3
Chewere 1M
Chailosi 1 M
Flavus 1 M -- With the elongatus types, I will add some females. 
Cobue Afra 1/3
Hara (afra) 1/3
Demasoni 1/6
Electric Yellow - 1/5
hongi 1/3
Blue lips = 1/4
Labeotropheus - red varierty forgot name - 1/3

Tanganyikans:
Juli transcriptus gombi or the likes - 1 pair
NeoLamp Brichardi, daffodil or Sunflower - 1 pair or maybe group
Alto Calvus - Black - 3
Alto Comp gold face - 3
Shell Dwellers - names forgotten) 6-10
Lepidolamp kendalli - 3-4
Chalinochromis Brichardi - 3-4
other lanps and neo lamp oddballs

Peacocks/Haps:
1-2 male peacocks - maybe a few females to entice coloring
Iceberg Electric Blue ahli - 1/5
Red Empress 1/3
Cop- Ivory mloto 1/3
dimidiochromis compressiceps - 1-2, Albino 1-2

Victorians:
Tough choices here but I'd like 2-3 diffferent species
Red Nyerei - 1/3
Obliq #44? 1/3
Pythn Island 1/3

Other Fish
Buffalo Head 2-4
Tinanti 2-4
Bushy bristle nose plecos - albino and otherwise -5-6
Clown Loach 3-4

I think that is my closest semblance to a plan - It is the kitchen sink method.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

So do you not really want advice?


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

That stocking list has more issues than TIME magazine lol. Honestly, it's a disaster waiting to happen. You need to decide on one Lake, one continent and herbivores or carnivores...


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## Dimidio11 (Sep 3, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> So do you not really want advice?


Feel free to critique the list. It is excessive as far as the amount of fish and species. I was hoping for a discussion and advice. I 'm not a newbie and this stocking list follows alot of my experience with successful tanks from the past. I'm looking for input. I still have a week or two before the tank gets water, so plenty of time for me to finalize my stock list.


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## Dimidio11 (Sep 3, 2017)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> That stocking list has more issues than TIME magazine lol. Honestly, it's a disaster waiting to happen. You need to decide on one Lake, one continent and herbivores or carnivores...


I have stocked numerous cichlid tanks with this formula without issues and have seen a serious shift in the market pushing for segregation of lakes etc.

The list was largely one continent with the exception of the last few fish which are optional at this point. I have done them with Africans and only the Tinanti has not been attempted for a long period of time. I am not 100% sure of their origin location.. like I said , it's been a while since I was in the industry.

As far as lakes... I have always mixed Tanganyikans, Malawi Cichlids and Victorians in "Community Cichlid tanks." I try to stick with dwarf type Mbuna due to aggression.

Some of the specific issues I see are some of the related species like compressiceps/calvus, the two afra's, the elongatus types. Even concerned about the Hara and Polit, due to their color similarity. Another issue wil be the shelldwellers. Size and feeding needs will be a concern.

A large population of cichlids will general dilute the aggression allowing for any dominate male's aggression being less focused on any one fish.

I would probably opt for Msobo over Saulosi because there is less resemblance to the demasoni.

This tank will be 3 sided, and I might opt for the open area to be in the middle as opposed to the end. This should allow for additional benefits of line of sight aggression being less of an issue.

Food - I will be feeding generally flake foods heavy in spirulina. IT wil be a nice mix for my multi purpose target.


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## thornsja19 (Feb 4, 2017)

What exactly is the purpose of this post? Kinda just seems like you just want to hear yourself talk at this point. You obviously don't actually want advice because the vast majority of people here will tell you what you're planning is a horrible idea, and you just respond by basically saying that no, you're right because you've supposedly done this before. Not much of a discussion...


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Exactly, why do you need our advice when you already know everything? The reason why there has been a "movement" in the hobby to segregate lakes, is because responsible hobbyists have become more aware of the consequences and problems associated with mixing lakes and continents. People also used to think a tiny bowl was okay for goldfish and that the earth was flat but thank goodness for biologists and Christopher Columbus!


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## Dimidio11 (Sep 3, 2017)

thornsja19 said:


> What exactly is the purpose of this post? Kinda just seems like you just want to hear yourself talk at this point. You obviously don't actually want advice because the vast majority of people here will tell you what you're planning is a horrible idea, and you just respond by basically saying that no, you're right because you've supposedly done this before. Not much of a discussion...


Wow.. I guess let the flaming begin...

I offered as much info as I could. Not to hear myself speak, but to set the table so to speak.

I have had two responses... one who didn't see where I was asking for advice in my OP. So I clarified that I am open for critiques on my list etc.
The other told me to pick one continent, one lake and one diet -- as the only reasons to justify saying this idea was bad.

And now I have received your response. My OP's Title sstates the purpose of the post. I guess I could have repeated that in my post. Next you basically form an argumentative response and with an insult. Then state that obviously, I actually don't want what I stated I wanted. you follow up that assumption of my wishes by speaking for the members of this forum saying that the vast majority would say this plan is horrible.

I guess I was wrong to think that there was room for open dialogue in this forum of hobbyists. That maybe someone would state some of their concerns about species selection listed here. Similiar to how I expressed some of my concerns based on similiar colors markings and species and how I am trying to remedy it in my plan. At this time, it's not much of a discussion. Noone has entered the discussion except to flame me or to state some vague rules that may or may not have validity if we could hear more elaboration.

I reread my original post, and the list appears to be a finite list... I want to stress that it is not. It is my desired list and I see some limitations and concerns based on population count, diet and aggression that I don't want to inject into the conversation. I would rather hear from you all about your ideas and concerns.

I guess I just expected more from hobbyists. An open dialogue and not an attack based conversation.


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## Dimidio11 (Sep 3, 2017)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> Exactly, why do you need our advice when you already know everything? The reason why there has been a "movement" in the hobby to segregate lakes, is because responsible hobbyists have become more aware of the consequences and problems associated with mixing lakes and continents. People also used to think a tiny bowl was okay for goldfish and that the earth was flat but thank goodness for biologists and Christopher Columbus!


What have responsible hobbyist found to be the problem with mixing lakes. I'm not going to get into the mixing continents cause I still am not following where I mixed continents other than Plecos. What are the specific concerns with my proposed stock list? I don't know everything. I can state what I have experienced and look for intelligent discussion to help me finalize my plan.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

Nobody was trying to attack or insult you, you came off as someone who got on the forum just to say "I'm going to do this crazy stocking list even though I know it's ridiculous and I don't really need your advice because I know better than you." I'll be more specific about why it's not going to work if you would like but it's going to take a while and I don't want to waste my time explaining it to you if you don't want to listen.


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## thornsja19 (Feb 4, 2017)

Wasn't really an attack based conversation. I'm just saying, if you did any real research, read any of the other posts on this site, talked with the vast majority of other hobbyists... pretty much anyone will tell you the one continent/lake/diet thing. And you knew this because your response to caldwell's advice was that you know almost everyone in the hobby advises that and you don't agree with it. So honestly, what was the point of opening a thread asking for advice if you knew ahead of time that you wouldn't be open to/taking 98% of the advice you were going to receive? If you think you know what you're doing and you know that almost everyone is going to tell you it's a bad idea and you don't care, then why not just go ahead and do it? Why ask for advice you know you're not gonna take? It just kinda seems like a waste of time for everyone involved


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

First off, what do you think might be a potential problem with putting a compressiceps in with shell dwellers?


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## Dimidio11 (Sep 3, 2017)

thornsja19 said:


> Wasn't really an attack based conversation. I'm just saying, if you did any real research, read any of the other posts on this site, talked with the vast majority of other hobbyists... pretty much anyone will tell you the one continent/lake/diet thing. And you knew this because your response to caldwell's advice was that you know almost everyone in the hobby advises that and you don't agree with it. So honestly, what was the point of opening a thread asking for advice if you knew ahead of time that you wouldn't be open to/taking 98% of the advice you were going to receive? If you think you know what you're doing and you know that almost everyone is going to tell you it's a bad idea and you don't care, then why not just go ahead and do it? Why ask for advice you know you're not gonna take? It just kinda seems like a waste of time for everyone involved


Honestly.. Then don't waste your time. Ignore this post. You have failed to discuss the species list in any detail. You have not discussed any problems that might arise.

My statement was that I have seen a shift to segregrate fish based on lakes. Even though I see numerous posts on here talking about stock lists with some intermixing of lake species.

But as I said, it was an attack based response. It is full of assumptions about me as the OP and not about the topic and information in the post. Additionally, your repsonses have misrepresented my responses. Your final statement is that it would jsut be a waste of time. Besides the fact that you are again assuming that any advice received will fall on deaf ears, you are actually wasting your time complaining about the prospect of wasting time, so it is obviously not a problem. Now please make it a problem and ignore this thread. If you have nothing to offer about the actual topic, please just don't reply. Thank you for your time.


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## Dimidio11 (Sep 3, 2017)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> First off, what do you think might be a potential problem with putting a compressiceps in with shell dwellers?


That is a concern and thank you bringing it up. For me the concern is that they would be eaten. That being said, I have had a 5-6" Compressiceps shwing decent color in a tank with a breeding pair of Juli's. I say pair, but when I tore the tank down. I pulled out 100+ Juli's from various spawns that I added to the fish room.

Juli's are pretty extreme in the way they tend to cling to the rocks as a cautious behavior against predators. Are Shell dwellers as cautious?


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

The comp would most certainly eat anything it could fit in its mouth, as would the peacocks and the red empress. Even the mbuna would take out the shellies... The constant digging of all the haps and peacocks would stress the shellies to death even if they didn't get eaten because they don't like their shells to be messed with. Tangs and Malawis have similar water parameters but Victorians and river dwellers like buffalo heads require different water parameters. Most Mbuna are too aggressive for victorians and haps and peacocks as well. I could go on but I think you might have a good idea by now


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

In a 190 gallon tank you could have a really nice Malawi peacock and hap tank, or a Mbuna tank, or a Tang tank, or a Victorian tank or a shellie tank etc... but not a mixture.


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## judyok (Aug 12, 2014)

So I raise Tanganyikans and my advice for the Tanganyikan list would be to eliminate a few fish from your list. The fish that will likely go on a murderous, slaughtering rampage when they pair off will be the Lepidolamp kendalli, the Brichardis and the Comps or Calvus may eat some of the shell dwellers when the grow larger. Pick either the Comps or the Calvus not both, the julies will do fine, maybe some Cyrpichromis for the upper regions of the tank. If you want shell dwellers with Comps I would choose the Dwarf Sumbu Comps. I do keep bristlenose plecos in all my Tanganyikan tanks and they seem to do fine. If you want Mbuna just stick with Mbuna only, good gravy those are aggressive fish.

I like a little aggression with the fish because their behavior is so interesting, but not to murderous ends. I don't really enjoy fish hovering up in the corners of the tank stressed to the max or chewed up torn up fins.


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## thornsja19 (Feb 4, 2017)

Ok if you want specifics... I won't even go into detail about mixing lakes but I'll focus simply on the Malawi species as a starting point... 1st off if you're going to have breeding groups of Mbuna the smallest groups recommended for even the least aggressive species is a 1M:4F group. So your multiple groups of 1:3 are a bad idea. Having single males in a tank that has breeding groups is a bad idea because the solo males will try to mate with the females of other species, causing extra fighting. Either each species should have a breeding group or an all male tank. Demasoni are extremely con-specific aggressive, so larger groups are required. 1:6 is a bad idea, need roughly 30 of them for a tank that size. Then onto the Haps/Peacocks section. Similar advice as the mbuna. You should either choose breeding colonies or an all male tank with 1 male per species. Having breeding colonies and solo males in the same tank is a bad idea. Also, the vast majority recommend not mixing mbuna and haps/Peacocks as the mbuna tend to bully the haps/Peacocks. Some guys have had luck with an all male hap/peacock tank with a few mellow mbuna such as yellow Labs/Acei, but on the whole mixing isn't recommended. So yeah, just the Malawi portion of the stocking idea is way off, without even taking the Tangs/Victorian's into account. Once you do that, the list seems completely out of hand compatibility wise and way overcrowded, and just looks like it would take an absolute miracle getting the most mellow fish possible for it to work


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## Dimidio11 (Sep 3, 2017)

caldwelldaniel26 said:


> The comp would most certainly eat anything it could fit in its mouth, as would the peacocks and the red empress. Even the mbuna would take out the shellies... The constant digging of all the haps and peacocks would stress the shellies to death even if they didn't get eaten because they don't like their shells to be messed with. Tangs and Malawis have similar water parameters but Victorians and river dwellers like buffalo heads require different water parameters. Most Mbuna are too aggressive for victorians and haps and peacocks as well. I could go on but I think you might have a good idea by now


Shellies are a definite concern as I have not attempted them in mix tanks. I usually kept them in smaller species tanks with some mild mannered dither fish. Rainbows usually did pretty well in tanks like this. Being my only tank, I am trying to get a full mix of fish. We all know the hobby is addictive. I am not trying to reenter the hobby more than just having a nice tank. Shell dwellers are not a priority any more than an idea.

I am planning a dense lace rock stack. Creating many small territories. I was hoping the Shell dwellers would take to these small territories with cover. The digging might definitely be the final nail in the ideas coffin. That is something I did not consider as a factor.

As for Victorian water parameters, I have never seen it as an issue, short of my attempt to breed some zebra Obliq's that were wild caught. We struggled to get them to breed and over time the colony thinned a bit. We were finally successful when we added some F1's to the colony. After that, they were Rabbits in terms of their promiscuity. Our normal Obliq's, flamebacks (which we understood were extinct in the wild), and red tails all bread fine an coexisted in the same waters as Malawi and tanganyikans. The lakes do vary but it seems like water parameters become less of an issue after generations of captive produced stock become the selection pool.

Buffalo heads were also effective in this manner. I had a pair in the show tank of mixed Africans for years without issues. They used the rocks and terrritory as a defense.

Tinanti's I can't say much in terms of experience.

I agree as a blanket statement regarding mbuna's peacocks and the likes. I have kept them together longterm but peacocks in particular have always struggled more with the aggression than an electric blue ahli or a compressiseps. I might scratch peacocks offthe list.

One of my tactics that seem to have always helped me, is I start all fish young. Starting with the wimps or more fragile types, and the smaller species like Juli's Calvus/comps Lamps etc. I then add Peacocks or other Hap types that have some size. Before these get too large, I add mbuna and the more aggressive guys. Because of this, I am going to have to decide on the peacock types early.


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## Dimidio11 (Sep 3, 2017)

judyok said:


> So I raise Tanganyikans and my advice for the Tanganyikan list would be to eliminate a few fish from your list. The fish that will likely go on a murderous, slaughtering rampage when they pair off will be the Lepidolamp kendalli, the Brichardis and the Comps or Calvus may eat some of the shell dwellers when the grow larger. Pick either the Comps or the Calvus not both, the julies will do fine, maybe some Cyrpichromis for the upper regions of the tank. If you want shell dwellers with Comps I would choose the Dwarf Sumbu Comps. I do keep bristlenose plecos in all my Tanganyikan tanks and they seem to do fine. If you want Mbuna just stick with Mbuna only, good gravy those are aggressive fish.
> 
> I like a little aggression with the fish because their behavior is so interesting, but not to murderous ends. I don't really enjoy fish hovering up in the corners of the tank stressed to the max or chewed up torn up fins.


Thank you for the insight. I actually only tried Kendalli one time, and in the first week, this particular tank had an issue and we lost the tank. We sued to have a monkey tail skink climbing aroung the fish room. He must have gotten stuck and he pulled out the airlines to sponge filter. only time that had ever happened, but I never tried the kendalli again. I love their look, but their aggression is definitely a concern. Do they take large territories? Would just a single specimen be ok in a community setting, or would it still be overly aggressive?

I love Cyprichromis but my love for mbuna overshadows them as an option.

Never had many issues with neo and alto lamps aggression, except towards similiar species or defending a nest. I was hoping that a 190 gallon would allow me to have a couple different types of calvus/comps. Even considering the size of the tank, do you feel they would have too much conflict?


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## Dimidio11 (Sep 3, 2017)

thornsja19 said:


> Ok if you want specifics... I won't even go into detail about mixing lakes but I'll focus simply on the Malawi species as a starting point... 1st off if you're going to have breeding groups of Mbuna the smallest groups recommended for even the least aggressive species is a 1M:4F group. So your multiple groups of 1:3 are a bad idea. Having single males in a tank that has breeding groups is a bad idea because the solo males will try to mate with the females of other species, causing extra fighting. Either each species should have a breeding group or an all male tank. Demasoni are extremely con-specific aggressive, so larger groups are required. 1:6 is a bad idea, need roughly 30 of them for a tank that size. Then onto the Haps/Peacocks section. Similar advice as the mbuna. You should either choose breeding colonies or an all male tank with 1 male per species. Having breeding colonies and solo males in the same tank is a bad idea. Also, the vast majority recommend not mixing mbuna and haps/Peacocks as the mbuna tend to bully the haps/Peacocks. Some guys have had luck with an all male hap/peacock tank with a few mellow mbuna such as yellow Labs/Acei, but on the whole mixing isn't recommended. So yeah, just the Malawi portion of the stocking idea is way off, without even taking the Tangs/Victorian's into account. Once you do that, the list seems completely out of hand compatibility wise and way overcrowded, and just looks like it would take an absolute miracle getting the most mellow fish possible for it to work


I definitely understand some of the concerns. 1M:4F is good small colony in a breeder tank. assuming there are dither fish. we would all agree that due to the Demasoni being so aggressive a large colony is needed to dilute the aggression of the dominant males. That is the same theory I work from. As a whole , I am tryign to create a large colony of assorted species, diluting their aggression. By having females from all of the species in there, this seems to help. I am not worried about cross breeding as a consequence as I am not trying to maintain perfect strains for resale. I thought about going all males but feel the aggression would be magnified by the larger male population, and the lack of females to help dilute the aggression. The lack of females might help though because it might not trigger the male aggression as much. Something to think about.

Anythoughts on the specific species, such as polit Vs hara seeing that they are a simliar sky blue color?


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## thornsja19 (Feb 4, 2017)

Actually, with mbuna specifically they work the opposite to that thought process. The reason that hobbyists recommend either every species gets a breeding group or an all male tank is because those are the two best ways to spread aggression. If each male has enough females of his own species, he will be spending so much time trying to mate with all of them that he won't pay attention to males of other species too much. If there are no females in the tank at all, then none of the males have a reason to be in mating mode establishing dominance, and they just tend to all kind of mellow out as a result. However, if a there are solo males and another species had a breeding group, then the solo males will attempt to breed with that group's females because they don't have females of their own. Which then puts them in direct competition with the males from the breeding groups, causing a free for all deathmatch between all the males in the tank. So yeah, that's why with mbuna/haps/Peacocks you either want each species to have a breeding group or just single males with no females in the tank whatsoever. It's not a matter of worrying about crossbreeding because we don't like hybrids, it's that when you have crossbreeding that means you have a lot of excess fighting among your males throughout the tank. And as far as the Demasoni go, the reason they need large numbers is because they are a species that basically ignores everyone else in the tank. So you need a large colony of them to spread their aggression because to them the rest of the fish in the tank don't matter, they really only focus on each other.

As far as your species concerns go, a good general rule is if you're going to have 2 species together with a similar coloration they need to have different barring patterns to coexist. An example would be that it is a bad idea to keep standard Socolofi and Cobalt Zebras together, seeing as they are a very similar color and neither have any barring. However, Socolofi, Demasoni, and Mainganos could potentially work together because although they are all a similar color Socolofi have no barring, Demasoni have vertical barring, and Mainganos have horizonal barring. It would obviously be better to have fish of all different colors, but as long as proper M:F ratios are followed similar color with different barring could work


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## Dimidio11 (Sep 3, 2017)

thornsja19 said:


> Actually, with mbuna specifically they work the opposite to that thought process. The reason that hobbyists recommend either every species gets a breeding group or an all male tank is because those are the two best ways to spread aggression. If each male has enough females of his own species, he will be spending so much time trying to mate with all of them that he won't pay attention to males of other species too much. If there are no females in the tank at all, then none of the males have a reason to be in mating mode establishing dominance, and they just tend to all kind of mellow out as a result. However, if a there are solo males and another species had a breeding group, then the solo males will attempt to breed with that group's females because they don't have females of their own. Which then puts them in direct competition with the males from the breeding groups, causing a free for all deathmatch between all the males in the tank. So yeah, that's why with mbuna/haps/Peacocks you either want each species to have a breeding group or just single males with no females in the tank whatsoever. It's not a matter of worrying about crossbreeding because we don't like hybrids, it's that when you have crossbreeding that means you have a lot of excess fighting among your males throughout the tank. And as far as the Demasoni go, the reason they need large numbers is because they are a species that basically ignores everyone else in the tank. So you need a large colony of them to spread their aggression because to them the rest of the fish in the tank don't matter, they really only focus on each other.
> 
> As far as your species concerns go, a good general rule is if you're going to have 2 species together with a similar coloration they need to have different barring patterns to coexist. An example would be that it is a bad idea to keep standard Socolofi and Cobalt Zebras together, seeing as they are a very similar color and neither have any barring. However, Socolofi, Demasoni, and Mainganos could potentially work together because although they are all a similar color Socolofi have no barring, Demasoni have vertical barring, and Mainganos have horizonal barring. It would obviously be better to have fish of all different colors, but as long as proper M:F ratios are followed similar color with different barring could work


Thanks for the input. Definitely alot to consider. Doing this without the security of 100+ fish tanks to move fish to and all of the other pros of being an LFS and a breeder is definitely different. That and I love the fish and varieties so it is hard to choose when I only have one tank.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

In a 60" tank for Malawi mixed gender I would not exceed 5 species (depending on the species...some even less) with 1m:4f of each.

I have had bad experiences with many experiments mixing lakes...including calvus, leleupi, trets, shellies, nyererei and flamebacks.

Also demasoni and hara.

The astatotilapia is working well with the borleyi and maleri at this time...but in an earlier all-male hap and peacock tank he was too aggressive.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Dimidio11 said:


> As for Victorian water parameters, I have never seen it as an issue, short of my attempt to breed some zebra Obliq's that were wild caught. We struggled to get them to breed and over time the colony thinned a bit. We were finally successful when we added some F1's to the colony. After that, they were Rabbits in terms of their promiscuity. Our normal Obliq's, flamebacks (which we understood were extinct in the wild), and red tails all bread fine an coexisted in the same waters as Malawi and tanganyikans. The lakes do vary but it seems like water parameters become less of an issue after generations of captive produced stock become the selection pool.


Yeah, I don't see how water parameters are really an issue. Malawi cichlids and "Victorians" in captivity are most often kept in much harder water then they come from. I suppose if one was trying to replicate the water parameters they come from, Malawi and Victoria are similar enough with enough overlap that maybe they could be in the same tank, but tangs definitely not.https://malawicichlids.com/mw01011.htm Lake Victoria: dGH: 1-4, electrical conductivity 91-145 microseimens. Lake malawi; dGH: 3-6, electrical conductivity 200-240 microseimens. Lake Tanganyika: dGH: 10-13, electrical conductivity around 600 microseimens. These are measurements taken for the purpose of science (not somebodies made up recommendation). But a number of aquarists have actually gone to lake Malawi, went into the water at many of the popular collection sites and taken their own measurements. I use to have a few links of these actual measurements but these sites are no longer on the internet. What they found are pH measurements ranging from 7.6 -8.1 and electrical conductivity any where from about 200 to 240 microseimens. GH is not high, nor total ionic concentration. Barely hard or border-line soft. Certainly can't be described as very hard. Most of us would have to invest in an RO unit or use distilled water to even come close to replicating the overall numbers of lake Malawi or lake Victoria. The vast majority of aquarists would have harder water coming out of their tap and even some will dump more "cichlid salts" in the mistaken belief they come from liquid rock. The fact that they have successfully been kept in much harder water over the many years is a testament to their hardiness and also reflects the fact that particular water parameters aren't all that important for these fish.
The odd thing is, many of the Malawi keepers that make a big deal about "water parameters" will stock BN plecos, a fish that most certainly does come from water that is very soft and acidic, and Synodontis from lake Tanganyika which actually does come from hard water, in the very same tank with their Malawis. The only Syndontis from lake Malawi is _S. njassae_ an it's not common in the hobby at all. Not only does a BN pleco come from very soft acidic water, but it is also sub-tropical :lol: If you keep cichlids that come from the same general area as a BN pleco, you'd get an earful from some aquarists, if you didn't give these fish a cool down period of 60* f or less. Of course that is debatable and it likely matters more so for some fish then others. Many cichlids are at least as adaptable as BN plecos or Synodontis and many of them are at least as hardy. If one is going to take a hard-line approach against mixing cichlids based on "water parameters", then at least be consistent. No BN plecos or Tanganyikan syndontis in your tank!


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## Dimidio11 (Sep 3, 2017)

Thank you DJ

BR - Than kyou as well. I agree with alot of your observations.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

The over whelming vast majority of tanks in the hobby are mixes of some sort. 
But some are not keen on mixing cichlids. There is a fairly narrow view on the "correct" way to stock a tank. People read on the internet and think recommendations are some sort of Iron clad laws; the thinking is, if you deviate, it will certainly end in disaster.
There is almost always more then one way to do something. Of course some stocking has better chance of turning out well, then others, but sometimes it's people are not familiar with a different approach.
Let's take, for example, the all-male hap/peacock tank that is often recommended. It's often advocated as a means to better manage aggression .......but really it is more so a way to maximize color. Few will do so with out running into aggression problems. Fish are removed or added, and the aquarist may succeed over the long run, but seldom with out some aggression issues. Some on this forum even will even recommend an all-male mbuna tank as an option. I know at least some aquarists have actually had long term success with this, though I really can't find any threads on line to document any long-term success. But really, I would think many hodge-podge mixes of cichlids would likely end up having less aggression issues.
I can't help too much about the specifics on this proposed mix....because it's not my mix so I don't really come from this experience. I know many Vics will mix fine with mbuna as I know of many people who have done so over the years, as well as having done it myself to some extent. But i think it often can really depend on the specific Vics chosen. They vary a lot in terms of toughness and aggression. I currently have 2 female zebra obliquedens (_Astatotilapia latifasciata_ which I have had a little over a year now and I am really surprised at how tough they really are. And very, very outgoing. That is one Vic (actually from lake Kyoga) that I know of other aquarists who have had great success mixing with mbuna.
Tangs, I have virtually no experience with. Had brichardis 40 years ago. Didn't do so well in my tanks but that is so long ago, my ways and methods would be so different today that it doesn't mean too much. Pretty much only see them in species only tanks. Some aquarists warn they can own space as large groups and can be deadly this way (?). Julies and trets, have often seen them in Malawi tanks in the past. No question, some aquarists have had success with these kinds of mixes, though I couldn't tell you how often as I am not coming from personal experience here. I would tend to think that at least with some of the larger tangs, you might want to consider singles, as breeding in a heavily stocked tank might pose a problem, but who am I to say, I've never owned any tang besides brichardi.
Demasoni, I would have never tried them if listened to this forum only. I stumbled across thishttp://www.cichlidforums.com/showthread.php?43297-Twelve-demasoni-minimum and started to question things. I especially like the opening post, and think it's fairly telling that real aggressives like kenyi and auratus killed off their females, but demasoni didn't. I've had demasoni for over 2 1/2 years now. Started with 6 and currently have 18 adults spread over 4 tanks (75, 90, 125, 180), plus many younger ones. When am I supposed to start seeing these problems :-? The conspecific aggression has been worse with my yellow labs, at times way worse. And, IME, nothing like auratus or kenyi. I know they are fickle but i think multiple males are at the heart of most peoples problems. I've had 3-4 males in a tank for a whilke and then removed extra males and it tends to improve things. I doubt when people have 12 or 20 in a tank that it's a 1: 11 or 1:19 ratio. Lot's of demasoni might be a starting point but i don't think a 1:6 ratio is bad.....I've had 1:1 to 1:5 at best and IMO things are more then fine. Also, following the advice in the linked thread I initially avoided adding or subtracting to the groups, but have since tried a number of times to suit my purposes with out any real problems arising!
Buffalo heads, had them back in the '80's. Didn't do so well but that is with primarily other substrate spawners such as jewels and CA. I don't want to exaggerate as it's not as if they got beat on, but they were low in the pecking order as they are not very tough. I dunno if it's a good idea keeping them with a lot of mbuna. Sometimes different fishes don't pay that much attention to each other because they have others that receive their attention, but Buffalo heads with mbuna, I personally wouldn't bet on it.
I think picking one to a few from each group might make for an interesting tank. Cichlids most often direct their aggression towards their own kind or similar and IMO that is why some mixes work out better. Every cichlid will count in terms of the pecking order but the more dissimilar often don't receive excessive attention. You may have to draw on your own experience more so then anything else as notions of the "correct' way to stock a tank are pretty rigid on this forum.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

I don't agree with all of the stringent stocking "requirements" I see on here a lot of times, but there's common sense approaches and then there's just throwing a bunch of fish in a tank and see who comes out on top. Like dimidiochromis compressiceps with shell dwellers or Mbuna with non aggressive haps. I concede that the water parameter argument is practically moot unless dealing with WC fish.


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## Dimidio11 (Sep 3, 2017)

Thanks again for all the posts and replies. There were some very long posts and I appreciate you taking the time to keep the conversation going. BCinSK, thank you for sharing your experiences and observations.

I started stocking the tank. It has been well seeded and currently has some bushynose, Electric yellows, Clown loaches, Syn. multis's, and a trio of zombabwe rock "Yellow Blaze." Right now, I am just keeping an eye on the water quality and making sure to keep enough food source in the tank. Algae is blooming a bit already, and tests are showing perfect in terms of the nitrogen cycle. Surprisingly, my Phoenix, AZ water is lower PH than I expected. Not worried abut the PH other than, I created a slowflow area of the sump with plans to add crushed coral for media to allow for more denitrification.

Rocks are stacked. I will be re stacking partialy whenever I add new fish. Partially to control aggression, and also to improve the stack. I estimate the lace rock 180 lbs

My stock list is still coming together. I have changed some of it, but not much. I found my old stock list on my 170 gal show tank and it was very similiar. When I sold the shop, it was still there stocked and doing well after a couple years. It had a more dense rock stack, and was only viewable from one side, which helps add significantly more cover for the fish. I am just going to focus on my experiences. I have recruited the assistance of an LFS who has extra space if I need to remove any fish due to aggression.


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