# Tropheus sick?



## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

_Sick Tropheus_

Today my tropheus are a lot less active than usual and I have at least one individual with bulging eyes - see photo. The tank has an automatic water change system, and the filter is running great. Water parameters are ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate, close to 0, pH 7.6, GH 9. They have been that for months. I added some multies recently, which are looking fine, but maybe they introduced something that's a problem for the tropheus. Darn, shouldn't have done that :?

Have added Clout as soon as I noticed there was a problem. Any other advice?

Many thanks

Frank


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

_Sick Tropheus_

Darn, I just found a dead one in the plants - see photos. Another one is on the way out - floating upside down. I took both out. What a nightmare!

Frank


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## frank1rizzo (Mar 14, 2005)

No suggestions on the cause, just wanted to pass along a


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

I guess the question is how much Clout should I dose - what it says on the bottle or go higher? Also, should I raise the temperature in addition and/or give salt, or leave it be with the Clout?

Frank


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## frank1rizzo (Mar 14, 2005)

Clout is a strong med... I wouldn't bump the dosage. But that's JMO.


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

Frank, don't overdose with clout!

I had a kasanga female like this about 2 months ago. Stayed that way for a month, and ate throughout. It eventually returned to normal. I was waiting for asecond fish to start with the same symptoms before treating and it never happened. I have no idea what the cause was. Nothing had changed, no new fish had been added. There's even fry in the tank that were seemingly unaffected.

I'm not sure how to advise you. It would appear ot be a bacterial infection, and I'm not sure raising temps or adding salt will do anything other than possibly stressing the rest out, which in turn could potentially cause more problems.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Yeah, Clout is a real hammer in my experience. If fish are weak already and you give Clout it can be enough tot finish them off. That's why it's important to catch the issue early, which I might have managed. I have the one with bulging eyes, the two dead one, and one is hanging at the surface now gasping. The others are not as active as usual, but other than that seem kind of ok.

I wonder what I should do regarding water changes - just let the auto water changer do its job, or do a big manual change now. It would waste some Clout, but no harm in that, because I have plenty it. Bought it for pond treatment.

So far my eretmodus seem unaffected. Hope it stays that way!

Frank

PS: Some days ago these tropheus were still spawning, and I had a whole bunch of females holding, plus plenty of fry in the tank. Whatever this is, it came on fast. I suspect the darn multies of introducing the pest, even though they are perfectly fine themselves.


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## Floridagirl (Jan 10, 2008)

I'm so sorry. :? We all want to do out best by our pets. Good Luck.


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

Frank, it could have been aggression related to spawning. I've seen it/heard it happen on more than one occasion.


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## billansor (Apr 4, 2009)

Hi

I am new on here but not new to fish..

I know Frank too.. Been to his house....
You guys have a great article on here that I stumbled upon in trying to find a reference to AD Konings..
here is the article posted by fish phenom

"Malawi bloat" is a disease perptuated by microscopic flagellates (parasites) that are commonly found in healthy fish. These one-celled protozoans reproduce by binary fission. They can occur on the skin, in the intestine, internal organs, and in the blood of fish.

Intestinal flagellates can be found in many fish which they do not harm. The pathogenicity of the organism varies from fish to fish. Thus, Angelfish may not be affected at all by the same flagellates that damage say a Discus. The intestines of these fish can contain millions of flagellates averaging in size of about 8-12 microns. Here is a list of some commonly known flagellates:

A. Hexamita 
B. Spironucleus 
c. Trichomanas 
D. Bodamonas 
E. Protoopalina

The most recognized are the first two.

Most researchers support the view that some of these protozoans reside in the intestines of healthy fish (dormant), but can proliferate to harmful numbers under stressful conditions.

Here is a recent quote from Ad Konings from his book Back to Nature Guide to Malawi Cichlids 2nd. edition pg. 46:

"Malawi Bloat is believed to be caused by a flagellate (a unicellular animal, a protozoan). This flagellate occurs in the intestines of all Malawi cichlids but normally causes no harm since the fish's immune system can cope with it. However, in a stressful situation such a balance may disappear and the fish may lose its resistance against an outbreak of a flagellate "attack". This often leads to bloat."

Fish are very good at fighting off disease, but when exposed to stressful conditions over a lengthy periods of time their immune systems weaken, thereby exposing them to the possibility of contracting various diseases. Under "stress" the organism multiplies causing considerable localised damage. Once severe enough, the intestinal lining is penetrated and the organism enters the blood causing systemic and organ infections. In large numbers they can block the intestinal tract of a fish creating the"bloat"effect.

Some stressors:

1. Low oxygen (O2) levels 
2. High nitrite (NO2) levels 
3. High nitrate (NO3) levels 
4. High ammonia levels (NH3) 
5. High or low temperature levels 
6. Water pH 
7. Lighting 
8. Rough handling fish 
9. Overcrowding 
10. Not enough shelter 
11. Harassment 
12. Excessive salt 
13. Improper diet (specifically herbivores)

What one should remember, is that the parasitical outbreak is brought upon by any number of stressors (some listed above), many times in conjunction with one another. Therefore, sometimes the best way to treat a disease is to prevent it from ever happening. A clean non-stressful environment will breed colorful, thriving cichlids.

If they get bloat from diet, is this in fact something different from bloat due to internal parasites?

No. They are one in the same. Diet in this case being the "stressor".

Is bloat only caused by these parasites, which in turn only become a problem if the fish is too stressed, which in turn can result from any number of causes, including diet, excess salts, etc?

As far as what has been proven, yes. Although, some tend to argue bloat can be bacterial in nature. I tend to agree with experts who feel bacterial complications are secondary in occurance only after the parasite has intially infiltrated the host.

Breeding aggression will bring about the protozoans problems..

Just look at this article and also add some Epsom Salt to your tank about a cup for every 50 gallons.. In your 125 stay at 2 cups.. be sure you disolve.. You can email me at [email protected] for more information...

Bill


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 11, 2006)

I would look into your auto water changer.... are you passing it through an efficient carbon filter?
Does the pH always sit at 7.6?


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## billansor (Apr 4, 2009)

Hi Frank
Whats the update on your Trophs?? 
Bill


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## Bweb (Mar 31, 2009)

I'M not an expert but isn't the recommended ph 8.6 that's what the profiles are saying just a thought I don't know if that could be the problem but it might be causing stress. hope the fish get better fast :thumb: [/i]


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## NewETown (Jul 31, 2008)

Raising the temperature of the water (slowly) can be beneficial, but you absolutely have to add more oxygen to your tank if you're going to do that. I don't care how much filtration/circulation you have, just add more. Increasing the temperature of a tank reduces the dissolved oxygen in the water, and you can literally choke your fish.

Other than that, sorry about your losses, it's really frustrating when these little guys randomly die :-/.


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