# I DONT KNOW WHERE TO START



## briman213 (Feb 18, 2009)

i am so frustrated with my tank, i fear i am reaching the end of my resolve. i have had a cichlid tank for approx 8 years now. i have had my current tank setup and running for around 5 yrs. with no real issues.

it is a 55 gal with about 15 fish in it, i keep it at 77-78 deg, and try to maintain a regular water change schedule, 30% every two-three weeks (gravel-vac/change filter cart one or the other every other time). i have mostly malawi's, but i have a few botias, as well as a daffodil. then i got a small case of ich, which i took care of with water temp, and salt. and i have had nothing but problems since. i bought my own test kit cause i was tired of going to the lfs to get it tested. my readings were as follows, 7.6 ph, 8.0 high level ph, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and 40 nitrates! i cant find anything to test my salinity, which i dont think has been right since the ich, and the subsequent water changes, i have increased my water changes to weekly, 30%, changes over to aqua-glo lights (per advise from elsewhere), and added some nitra-zorb to lower the nitrates to no avail.

and thats just the water issues, i now have at least two disease issues going on, i'm sure to do my inability to stabilize the water. i have fish with sunken bellies, one getting HITH, my electric yellow has some red blotching under his skin, darting across the tank, itches, and one has a heavy white film over its eyes.

sorry for the book, but its a mess, i am really attached to these fish, and hate to see them like this, they very recently all looked so great, now they are looking less great, to say the least.

please help!

-Brian


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Well, if your tank maintenance has been every 2-3 weeks for the past 8 years, this isn't something you're going to be able to fix over night. For now, I would do water changes twice a week, removing and replacing 30-40%.

Nitrates of 40 aren't bad, but they are getting there, and it can quickly get out of control if you slack up on the tank maintenance.

Water changes don't cause illness, so you've got some seperate issues there.

HITH is caused by poor tank maintenance or improper diet, or both.

Sunken bellies sounds like internal parasites.

The red blotches sound like septicemia, also caused by poor tank maintenance.

The film over the eyes can be contributed to poor tank maintenance, as well.

At this point you have far too many things going on to treat them all at once. Cleaning up the water is going to be just as important as anything else you do. I dare say none of this happened overnight.

From the problems you are having, I would suspect more than just the nitrates to be high. What kind of test kits did you get? Liquid reagent or strips?


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## briman213 (Feb 18, 2009)

i have the API master test kit, it has the liquid drops. i read the book that came with it before i tested, its a pretty simple process. i tested again last night, everything tested exactly the same. i have well water, it's pretty hard, so i usually do one change with softened water, one thats hard water. i used the test kit on my house water, had no nitrates, i still need to test it for pH though.

i also never said this happened overnight, but it has happened since i had ich, everything has spiraled out of control since then. the only thing they have had for awhile, is the sunken belly, which i didnt know was a parasite problem till i read it on here yeaterday, i thought they just werent eating enough.

i dont want you think i'm passing the buck here, the current state of my tank is a direct result of my actions, but i need to get it back in shape, i feel terrible that they are not healthy and happy.

thanks for the help

-Brian


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## cevvin (May 2, 2008)

How old is your test kit? The API test kits I think only last for a year, give or take a few months. Keep up with the water changes.


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## briman213 (Feb 18, 2009)

i just bought a new test kit on monday, from a pretty busy store, so it should be fairly new, i would hope. this weekend i am going to take a sample of hard, soft, and tank water to the LFS to have all 3 tested by them, just in case.

i am also wondering if i should pick up a second HOB filter, i though that one emp. 400 was plenty for a 55 gal. i currently run it with with the filter wrapped carbon cart, two on each side, i dont run the media cart.

i am also going to get a new heater, to rule out that mine is causing any darting. i have a 200w marineland, it has always seemed to do the job, do you all run two heaters or one? i run my HOB on one end, and my heater is in the other corner, is that ok?

i did a change of 15 gal on monday, i will do another 15 on fri, then get the water tested on sat afternoon.

thanks

-Brian


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## briman213 (Feb 18, 2009)

i forgot to ask what you all think about the need to setup my 30 gal as a hospital/quar tank, i have all the fish i think a 55 gal can handle, so i dont really need a quar tank, but a hospital tank may not be a bad idea.

it would also allow me to get the eco-complete gravel in a tank, and get it cycled, so i could move it into my 55. i have a crappy whisper HOB filter, and a marineland 100 w heater, i could set it up and get it cycled (fishless cycle i guess).

thanks,

-Brian


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

First, I wasn't implying that it happened overnight, just that it wouldn't be something you could fix quickly. :wink:

Often, if a tank isn't well maintained, adding meds can start a chain reaction of events. I really think this is what has happened in your case.

Rather than put more meds in now, I would focus on the water quality and get that taken care of first. Once the tank is pristine, the fish may behave differently...And improving the water quality may help prevent the HITH from getting worse, and resolve the eye issues. I would increase the water change amount to 30-40%, though.

How have you dealt with the substrate? Have you churned it often to keep it clean? If not, this may be something we need to address, but whatever you do, don't clean it all at once! If you stir it up too much and it hasn't been cleaned well in awhile, you could release bacterial pockets into the water and make things worse.

Now, if you want to move the one with red streaks into the extra tank and treat with daily water changes and antibiotics, that's not a bad idea...

I don't keep a hospital tank set up at all times, because I am of the belief that a daily water change is going to be as beneficial to a sick fish as anything else I can do for him.

What you can do is place a hydro sponge filter in the main tank in a back corner to keep it seeded.


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## briman213 (Feb 18, 2009)

first off i want to say thanks for all the help and advise, i can already see an improvement just from my past two water changes!

i am going to do another 15 gal change tonight, then i am going to go to the fish store and have them do a test on my tank water, my softened water, and my straight out of the well hard water. i currently use a gravel vac on the gravel, i pretty much use the vac on everything i can get the head into, without disturbing the decorations. and i was doing it every 2-3 weeks, (on my _OLD_ maint. schedule :thumb: )!

its funny that you ask about substrate, cause i am starting to want to redo basically my whole setup. after seeing the pics of some of the more natural african habitats, i want to switch over to that. i am currently running the tank with all my left-over fresh water tank decorations, i.e., the fake petsmart specials (which i am a bit embarassed to admit having seen the awesome habitats on this site!)

i would like to switch over to the eco-complete gravel (dont really want the sand) and do a more natural rock-scape. as i have learned from this site, i need to be very careful about making this switch, especially regarding the gravel switch. my proposed plan of action was to move my current decorations temporarily to one side, remove that side of the gravel, replace it with the eco, then move the old decorations back for now. then in a few weeks (adivse please on the timing) do the same on the opposite end. then in a few more weeks, remove the current (horrible) petsmart ****, and setup some rock-scapes based on what i've seen on here.

lastly, as i have learned, the hospital tank would need to be cycled, which from what i read will take 4-6 weeks, and if i keep doing my 30% twice a week for that long, i can prob fix 99% of my problems, then maybe we will need to look at an internal/external parasite treatment (or hopefully not!)

my final unresolved question is this, to help with the ich i had, i really upped the salt in the tank, since then, i have no idea of the salinity of my water. i have prob replace all the old water through the water changes, but i am nervous about how much salt i add when i do the water changes due to the fact that i dont know the current salinity. i read somewhere for cichlids it sould be .0018-.0022, is that right, and how do i find something to measure that low? my brothers salt tank measuring device is only down to like .16.

sorry for another book,

-Brian


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

Let me just address the hospital/quarantine tank issue. This is really quite easy. Have a little bit of gravel and a few rocks in a 10-20 gallon with a small HOB filter and heater stuck in a closet somewhere. When you need it, pull it out, fill it with water prepared exactly the way you do the water in the main tank when doing water changes, pull some media from your existing filter, add injured/sick or new fish and you're set. You can also leave the small HOB on the main tank all the time so that it has a bacterial colony and then just move it over when you need to (which is what I do.)


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## briman213 (Feb 18, 2009)

did another 20 gal change last night, i decided to add salt this time around, only a 25 gal dose though. i am starting to figure that since my ich, i have prob cycled all the water out of the tank at least three times without adding salt, (and that doesnt count the two 20 gal changes, and the 15 gal change i have done this week, with no salt added.)

i forgot how much it clouded up the water when you add it, but this morn water looks great, crystal clear, and my nitrates are down, not quite all the way to 20, but def not the 40 they had been at.

thanks,

-Brian


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Why are you adding the salt, Brian? Was it just for the ich, or were you adding it for some other reason all along?

How are the fish behaving now? Are you seeing any improvements?

I wouldn't change out the substrate until we get all of this worked out, but I understand your desire to do so. You should have seen some of the decor I had in my first cichlid tank! I'm just glad they couldn't report me for cruel and unusual punishment! :lol:

When you do change the substrate, because of your less than ideal tank maintenance, I would remove the fish from the tank, maintain the filter media/bacteria, do the change quickly along with a very large water change (80%) and test the water before returning the fish to the tank. (A large rubbermaid container with a hydro sponge will keep things nice for them while you switch it out.)


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## briman213 (Feb 18, 2009)

I have always put salt in the tank, per my LFS directions, but I added a big dose of salt a few months ago, to help fight the ich. it did the job, the ich is all gone, and i have done all my subsequent water changes without adding salt.

so i figured through all the water changes i have done, i've prob pulled and replace all 55 gal at least three times now, never adding salt. most of the high-salt content water is out of the tank, so i prb had very little to no salt at all.

my LFS guy told me to add salt per the directions on the container, tablespoon per 5 gal. so when i did my 20 gal water change, i added some salt this time. is that not right?

i see your point on waiting to do the substrate change, i have no prob with that, it makes sense. no point in stirring the pot, i'll get the water back in line, then do the change.

are you saying that i can do the gravel/decorations all at once? i thought that would throw-off my cycle?

by "maintain filter media" what do you mean, just dont change it, or soak it in a container with tank water?

lastly, what exactly is a hydro sponge?

thanks again,

-Brian


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

These fish do not require salt. The only time there is really a need for it is when dealing with illness or injuries, and not in all cases as far as that goes.

Your beneficial bacteria is in your filter media. As long as you do the substrate change quickly and keep your filter media submerged in tank water, you can do it all at once. I recommend removing the fish while doing it to prevent toxicity from bacterial pockets within the substrate that you currently have.

A hydro sponge is a simple filtration system that hooks up to an aerator. We use them alot in fry tanks and hospital tanks.


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## briman213 (Feb 18, 2009)

wow, all this time i thought i needed brackish water because of what the guy at the fish store told me! i will keep doing my water changes without salt, then when i do my gravel change, and the big water change, i will have most of it back out.

if i were to use my python and fill my 30 gal with their tank water, would i have a little more time? i have never built rock caves in a tank like this before, not sure of what to use, and how long it may take me to do it.

i am also considering a canister filter to go along with my emp 400 HOB. i was interested in the rena xp3, though i am not sure what media to use in it. prob a course filter, bio balls, and ceramic, but im open to suggestions. i also like the idea of getting a flow thru heater to get mine out of the tank.

once i get my nitrates back down to a good level, i will do the gravel change.

thanks,

-Brian


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## SupeDM (Jan 26, 2009)

I had a similar situation a while ago in one of my 75 gallon tanks. It had been running for around 7 years and then things started to get a little funky whee fish werent acting right stopped breeding then the disease outbreaks started first ICH then HITH then sunken bellies etc. I followed all the usual things to do, Massive water changes and gravel vacuming and such. I even took out all the decor and vacuumed all the gravel. But I just couldn't get my nitrates under controll. I finially decided to really get crazy one day and I stirred up all the gravel like crazy and even after all the vacuming I had done it was freakishly dirty. I couldn't believe it so I started doing a little research and I found something called old tank syndrome. I ended up taking out all of the gravel and rinsing it with water from the tank. Within one week of doing this everything was back to the way it should be. Nitrates were easy to control rarely getting above 10ppm and within 2 weeks the fish were acting healthier and eating better and I again saw holding females. If I was you I would get the Xp3 and instead of spending money on the ceramic rings or bio balls I would put some of the gravel from the tank in the baskets. I would then shake things up by doing a thurough cleaning of the gravel and by thurough I mean using your hands to stir it up very well If you get alot of dirty looking stuff out of it then you may have the same problem I had.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

If you're switching to sand, rinse and cleanse it the night before, then let it sit in your house to come to room temperature. You would be surprised how much it will change the temp of your water if you leave it outside on a cool night.


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## briman213 (Feb 18, 2009)

i have decided not to go with sand, i think i want to use the eco-complete gravel. seems like great stuff, just not sure what rocks to use to build the cave system for them.

i did another change last night, happy to say when i tested today, nitrates are down again, looked to be between 10-20 ppm, prob around 15.

i also bit the bullet and bought a rena xp3, as well as the bio stars, ceramic media, nitra zorb, filter floss, and even the new rena flow thru heater (ouch). figured i owed them really great water since i put them thru this, sort of as a punishment to myself, or my wallet 

the fish are def happier, more active, more colorful, little more aggresive again. the eye cloud is def clearing up, but my electric yellow still has some red blotching on him, he is darting less, but he is mouthing the side of the tank like crazy, some bellies are still sunken, and the peacock whose eyes are clearing up, looks to have a little white thing on his side fin. looks like a little piece of white flesh sticking about 1/16th of an inch out of the fin, right where the fin and his body meet.

-Brian


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Well, it sounds like we're making progress!

If the yellow lab has septicemia, it may be irreversible. Ideally, you would isolate him and treat with some broad spectrum antibiotics and daily water changes. I would be very hesitant to put meds in the main tank right now, though.

Are the ones with the sunken bellies eating?

Any chance of a pic of the white thing?


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## briman213 (Feb 18, 2009)

everyone is eating, eating really well too, i exaggerated as to the the size of the litte white mark, it not sticking out, i guess it looks more like a little ich spot, looks like a fight injury.

i will try to get some pics of it , and some of the yellow lab, so you can see what you are dealing with. you may need to show me how to post them, i dont see a pic insert option, just the img.

i am thinking of putting my current gravel in my 30 gal, and putting tank water into the 30 when i change to sand to use as a hospital tank until i get my problems fixed.

i have noticed more itching/flashing from more fish, as well as the one with the spot seems to be a little front heavy, doesnt sit level in the water, head seems to be tipped down alot, from the gills forward?

i looked at a bunch of tanks on here last night, i think i may go with the sand. any recommendations, i dont want it to be too fine, dont want it getting in my hob, and i want it to be pretty white, lkm what you think.

thanks,

-Brian


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Medium grain silica sand is the best, IMO. But I would hold off on that until we get everything else resolved.

To post pics, you need to upload them to a photo host, like Photobucket. Then you just copy and paste the img tag underneath the pic into your post on here.

You kept the established old filter on the tank, right?


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## briman213 (Feb 18, 2009)

yes, i still have my emp 400 hob on the tank, and i am going to continue to use it alongside the xp3.

i saw a tank on here with carib-sea torpedo beach sand, it looks like just what i want, is that a good sand for me?

i will not mess with anything until the tank is sorted out, especially because i want to add one or two while everyone is out, and i am redoing the tank. i want to get a blue like in your avatar photo, thats a cobalt right?

i will attempt photos tonight, i also have another stupid question: i was supposed to only be getting males for my hap/peacock tank. but i recently had babies, three of which are perfect, and apparantly very happy. So how can i tell who is my female, i think its the one with the white spot, and the clearing eye cloud, cause she never colored up, she is still just a ruddy dark brown, everyone else is a color.

-Brian


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

That's probably her. But the fry may not be pure, so keep them to yourself!

The sand you are talking about is nice, but if I'm not mistaken, it may alter your ph somewhat.


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## briman213 (Feb 18, 2009)

to be honest, i dont even want them, i never wanted any breeding, cause it looks like two of the babies are females also, no spots (not that thats definitive)

what can i do with them, they're too cute to flush, but i dont really want them, i never thought they would make it with all the big boys in there! but they're smart little things, hide well, sneak out for food, good instincts!

another sand mix i have seen that i like is a pool filter sand/ivory coast african cichlid mixture, even alot of the all pool filter sand tanks look great.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Both males and females have egg spots, so that doesn't mean anything. Usually, they don't show up until they start to grow up a bit.

Keeping hybrids in your tank just invites more hybrids into your tank...They will breed with most anything you have, and their behaviour is very unpredictable temperament wise. So, it's your call...(But please don't flush. There are better ways to euthanize if this is what you decide to do!)


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## briman213 (Feb 18, 2009)

well now that my nitrates are down, and everyone seems so much happier, i am wondering what treatments i need to do.

eye cloud is all but gone, still some sunken bellies, some flashing, itching, etc. Should i just get a broad spectrum antibiotic, or do the internal and then the external parasite medication?

also, what brands that are commonly found are the best, and are compatable if i need to do 2 treatments at once. and how do you reccommend dosing.

thanks,

-Brian

ps i will need to remove my charcoal filters before i dose correct?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Are you sure your water is okay first? Ammonia and nitrite are both zero, and nitrates are 20 or below?

I would continue frequent (daily) water changes for a week. The itching and flashing may still be because of the poor water quality. Since you just got the tank cleaned up, I wouldn't want to throw any meds in there just yet.

If they are still flashing this time next week, then we'll consider meds. And yes, you will need to remove carbon (only) if it's less than 2 weeks in use.


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## briman213 (Feb 18, 2009)

ok, i'll keep doing the changes, my last test a few days ago was all zero, nitrates maybe 15 ppm or so.

i've been doing three a week for almost two weeks now, 30-40% each. i'll keep doing them for another week, but i have a feeling i will have to use meds, by then my charcoal will be over two weeks old.

i am waiting to change to sand, as well as i am also waiting to set up my rena until after i medicate, only reason i was kind of wanting to get it over with, no biggie.

i'll let you know how things are looking in a week, as well as that days test results.

thanks again for all your help, and patience. BTW, my fiancee wont let me off those babies, says they're "too cute"

-Brian


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## briman213 (Feb 18, 2009)

well i did another 30% change last night, waited 5 hours, then tested my water, pH was 7.8, high level pH was 8.0, ammonia was 0, nitrites 0, nitrates are now under 10.

the eye cloud is almost all gone, the wound on the fin has healed almost completely, but still not sitting level in the tank, head is almost always down, almost completely vertical. but she is eating, and looks way better.

i am down to _some_ sunken bellies, _some_ flashing/darting/itching.

still some red blotching on the yellow lab, but he looks better, but i am noticing that he is spendng alot of time on the bottom of the tank, not swimming much. he will come out to eat, and to do a little scratching, but thats it, he hides the rest of the time.

could it really still be my water after all these changes? i know my pH is a little low, but not that bad i dont think.

-Brian


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## briman213 (Feb 18, 2009)

Well my nitrates are below 10, still having health issues. i decided to dose the JPC in the whole tank, followed directions, did three doses, waiting to see. i'm hoping to rid myself of at least the sunken bellies.

Got my rena hooked up, works awesome, but i think it is spitting some of my filter foss back into my water? Gonna have to get the floss out of the basket and see if that does it.

If i dont start to see some improvement, should i dose with JPC again? Or move to a different treatment option?

-Brian


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