# Mixing a Big CA/SA or other with Mbuna



## Glenbo (Aug 24, 2009)

I have been thinking about mixing either a Texas or a Black Jack Dempsey or a Polleni with my Mbuna tank (which already contains a Convict and a Red jewel,Bristlenose and Clown Loach) or maybe even a Green Terror (just sold one actually..and miss him!)

I know people don't liek to mix them and I know the reasons why....water parameters...dietary..etc

I'm talking aggression wise...

I can get a Juvi of any of the 3 fish mentioned for pretty cheap (under Â£5) and wouldnt mind 'trying it out' how would it go down? and which would be the best choice? I'm thinking the Black JD.

I want like a large center piece New World.

Will any of these 3 at Adult size be able to eat a fully grown Mbuna?

If i keep the tank nice and crowded,I assume I can stop aggression.

Which shall I try out? if it gets bad I have a hospital tank and i will rehome....its been so far so good with my Con and Jewel.

My main concern would be whether these fish will be able to take a battering from a Demasoni while young as mine bosses my tank...the Con and jewel have learnt to stay out of his way 

Just for refrence my stock list in my mature 4ftx2ftx2ft (with 2 oversized external filters) is

Mbunas

5 x Labidochromis caeruleus (Yellow Labs)
2 x Labidochromis perlmutt
2 x Labidochromis Hongi 
1 x Pseudotropheus estherae (Red Zebra) (orange)
2 x Pseudotropheus socolofi 
1 x Pseudotropheus Demasoni
2 x Pseudotropheus Elongatus Mpanga
1 x Pseudotropheus Kingsizei
4 x Pseudotropheus callaninos (Cobalt Blue Zebra) 
2 x Pseudotropheus Greshakei (Ice Blue zebra)
2 x Melanochromis auratus
1 x Melanochromis Johanii

Non Mbuna

1 x Hemichromis bimaculatus (Jewel Cichlid) (male)
1 x Archocentrus nigrofasciatus (Convict Cichlid) (female)
1 x Chromobotia macracanthus (Clown Loach)
1 x Ancistrus Sp. (Bristlenose Plec)


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## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

Your tank, IMO, is fully stocked without adding a large fish of any region to it.


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## Blademan (Sep 20, 2008)

I agree, and it sounds like you already have a nice variety. Maybe you could start a new CA tank


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## Glenbo (Aug 24, 2009)

I want to overstock it tho...like people always advise with Mbuna tanks


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## terd ferguson (Jul 31, 2007)

You cannot erase evolutionary traits like territorialism or aggressiveness no matter what you do. It's just bred into the fishes over eons. A full grown male Texas or a full grown male Jack Dempsey can eat just about any full grown Mbuna, especially females with them being naturally smaller. I have zero experience with Polleni. But, it's not just about whether or not the Mbuna can fit into the New World's mouth. Often times, the "aggressive" New Worlds will kill just because they can or because "he was looking at me cross ways".

I don't necesarily think water parameters is a good argument against mixing africans and americans. Most of the fishes most hobbyists have are bred in aquariums for many generations. Most requirements they had in the wild have been "watered down" so to speak. CLEAN water is more important than anything else when it comes to water parameters in my experience with africans and new worlds. Dietary issues can be easily overcome with feeding different fishes different diets based on their requirements.

I think the main reasonmost don't mix the new world and old world cichlids is simply because they "don't belong together". It's your tank and your fishes at the end of the day.


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## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

Glenbo said:


> I want to overstock it tho...like people always advise with Mbuna tanks


Yes...with mbuna tanks. Not with mbuna and random Central American fish tanks. Doesn't work that way for these fish. And you can only overstock to a point, you can't just keep adding fish and adding fish. With what you already have in the tank, you're pretty much at that point where you should stop adding.


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## Glenbo (Aug 24, 2009)

Oh well i did it anyway, i bought a white convict and a black JD...will let you know how it goes.

This is how i want it to turn out...that will be the end of my stocking then.

With tons of ocean rock/caves...

10 x Labidochromis caeruleus (Yellow Labs)
2 x Labidochromis perlmutt
2 x Labidochromis Hongi
5 x Pseudotropheus estherae (Red Zebra) (orange)
2 x Pseudotropheus socolofi
1 x Pseudotropheus Demasoni
2 x Pseudotropheus Elongatus Mpanga
1 x Pseudotropheus Kingsizei
4 x Pseudotropheus callaninos (Cobalt Blue Zebra)
2 x Pseudotropheus Greshakei (Ice Blue zebra)
2 x Melanochromis auratus
1 x Melanochromis Johanii
1 x Crabro/Bumblebee
1 x Moori/Blue Dolphin

Non Mbuna

1 x Jack Dempsey
2 x Hemichromis bimaculatus (Jewel Cichlid) (male)
2 x Archocentrus nigrofasciatus (Convict Cichlid) (male + female)
1 x Chromobotia macracanthus (Clown Loach)
1 x Ancistrus Sp. (Bristlenose Plec)

I have another tank set up if anything starts getting out of control anyways.


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## Glenbo (Aug 24, 2009)

OK looks like i made a bad mistake...my Jack Dempsey was eaten by my Mbuna inside a hour....wont be trying that again. (he was bigger than them to)


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

and thats what you get for not listening...


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## Leucistic Guy (Jul 8, 2009)

A careless mistake that should/could have been avoided if you would've listened to SK.
Sk is considered an "advanced fish keeper/hobbyist" any info or suggestions give by her is almost always the best thing to do.
I never 2nd guess her suggetions.

Put yourself is that JD's shoes.

It's basically like throwing you in jail & making you fend for yourself, & to see how long you last. 
Or lets just say your a liverpool fan & we kidnap you & throw you into & ManU bar full of "holigans". I wonder how long you'll last?

Your tank is basically @ it's limit & you want to add 6 or more fish?
You should take your fish's well being in to consideration.

Would you have done this with a dog or a cat?
Why didn't you keep an eye on your tank for signs of aggression?
You were warned, you said you had a QT tank to "rehome" him why didn't you move him in there?

Don't mean to sound like an ahole but you should have been more responsible.


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## MonteSS (Dec 8, 2008)

Im calling Bravo Sierra on this whole post. Nobody could be that silly.

.....Bill


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## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

I can't believe you did that. What a selfish thing to do! I'm sorry, but you were given plenty of GOOD advise and warned against it, and you went ahead and did it anyway...and now the poor thing has been eaten. Nice.


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## Glenbo (Aug 24, 2009)

Yeh you say that but 3 other sites said it would work, I'm not gonna take a site that i have just joined as gospel,i just wanted mixed opinions.

If your gonna take cheap shots then i think i'll probably just go elsewhere...i held my hands up, I didnt expect them to eat him like that either and im gutted...nor did anyone say they would so quit being so rude.

Also quit saying my tank is overstocked,its a Mbuna tank....if any of you ever kept Mbuna before you would know that i am Understocked.

24 Mbuna + 2 convicts is not overstocked in a 100g+ tank.

If you go to the malawi forums (biggest one on the net) youll see some people stocking 20 fish per square foot.....I'm not prepared to cater for that but 30 fish in a 100gallon is enough for me.

This site is very rude...i have been here less than 24 hours,made 1 post and you are all jumping down my neck....i could of said nothing so obviously i was a little ashamed of myself,its almost like you are enjoying the fact that i screwed up.


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## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

I've been keeping mbuna for over 15 years actually. Don't assume that everyone posting in a Central American folder doesn't know their stuff about other cichlids as well.


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## Leucistic Guy (Jul 8, 2009)

We're not trying to be rude.
-You asked for a few opinions.
-didn't even wait for more the 2 replies or even 24hrs
-didn't listen to the opinions expressed
-bought a fish on impulse & didn't take the time to research.
-complain about the treatment you get after you we warned

If you read your posts & the other replies, you'll see that in no way did you do the right thing.
You need to be responsible if you want to take on the responsibility on caring for another being no matter the cost.

You could have & should have kept an eye on you new guy.
You said yourself you had a tank to move him to if you needed.
Eaten in less then an hour... Come on, you would have noticed the aggression the moment you put him in the tank if this was the case.

What if the result had the opposite ending, & the JD ate all you african?
Would you just say oop I made a mistake... Oh well...
No way because the loss would've made a bigger impact on your wallet.
Maybe this way you'd realize that listening to others may have been the better choice.
You should consider yourself lucky because it could have easily turned out this way.

Just because you can "overstock" your tank doesn't mean you should.
Have you ever thought of the possibility of your fish cross breeding?
You'll have a tank full of hybrids in no time. This is a big "no no" in the African community.
Try & sell the "mutts" & see what response you get on any forums.

If you don't want aggression then keep all females, & have a tank for breeding.

I bet if you asked this same question & posted the same result on the "Malawi Forums" you'd most likely get the same result there too

Don't expect to be treated like a "saint" when you acted so carelessly.
In this hobby we never like or enjoy seeing a fish die, whether its our own or another members.



Glenbo said:


> I have been thinking about mixing either a Texas or a Black Jack Dempsey or a Polleni with my Mbuna tank (which already contains a Convict and a Red jewel,Bristlenose and Clown Loach) or maybe even a Green Terror (just sold one actually..and miss him!)
> 
> I want like a large center piece New World.
> 
> ...


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## Glenbo (Aug 24, 2009)

To be fair your loving the cheap shots.

No i couldnt see the agression because the tank is like a reef of pebbles and ocean rock.....i havent got xray vision...i just looked for him and found him hanging out the mouth of one of my zebras.

Yeh the Malawi Forums said it would be ok until the JD gets big,MFK said it would be fine and its doen regulary...fish forums said they dont advise it because of dietary differences but it would work.

And to be fair...I'm English so it was the next day before i read most of these replys.....I wrote this post last night.

So what you want me to do about it mate? I told you I was ashamed of myself and that i learnt a lesson...what do you want from me? a letter of apolagy? grow up man.

It was foolish..it was a risk and it didnt work out...lesson learned, time to move on.


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## terd ferguson (Jul 31, 2007)

People here can be kind of abrasive. But, it's because they're passionate. I do things in my big tank that EVERYBODY told me would never work. As it turns out, I've been very successful. But, it was a GIGANTIC gamble. When you do things a lot of experts recommend against, you've got to be prepared to take a few bruises if you're wrong. Read through the first few pages of my big thread and you'll see what I'm talking about. Then read the rest, it's really good otherwise. 

The reason I'm saying this is to let you know most here are very serious and don't take well to those doing things outside what is considered "conventional wisdom" when it comes to fishkeeping. Believe me, I know better than anyone. I'm also on MFK, my username is terd ferguson there too. I still post here only because of the gigantic thread I have going that documents my big tank for the sake of knowledge and science. Were it not for that, the abrasive personalities would've run me off a long time ago.

*No offense meant to anyone posting in the thread as I'm only speaking generally about experiences I've had here in the past with different members. But, to those posting in this thread, lighten up a little. Nobody likes to see a fish die needlessly. And this bloke doesn't seem any different. He admitted he jumped the gun and made a mistake. Give him a break.*

Glenbo, stick around and give it another chance. Abrasive personalities aside, there is no other site on the innernetz with more Mbuna knowledge than here. There are a lot of smart folks here when it comes to Africans. And even though I like MFK better (no offense, it's just my favorite), when it comes to Africans, this is THE place to go for info.

Cheers mate,
Kevin :thumb:


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## cichlidfeesh (Apr 6, 2009)

I agree with Kevin when it comes to some abrasive people on CF. I also agree that sometimes going against the grain works. I am having a hard time understanding how the larger fish ended up in the smaller fishâ€™s mouth? Was he picked apart after he died? My jag has a huge mouth, but he canâ€™t even fit some smaller fish in his mouth. Anyways, I think that if you introduced your jack into your tank differently it could have worked. It takes a while for fish to become comfortable enough to claim a territory, and until then they are very vulnerable. Plus every Jack Dempsey I've owned was a complete spaz and couldnâ€™t fend for itself. I guess I've never had any luck with them.

EDIT: Just realized you used to have a green terror and miss him. Out of all my fish my GT is definitely my favorite. Not only is he extremely colorful, but his personality is amazing. :thumb:


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