# I've got myself an emergency here



## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

I have some Ich in the tank but I caught it very early, however now I also see what looks like Columnaris on my yellow labs face. I'm writing this at 4am on Thanksgiving, I have to leave for family at 11am, and I'm sure I have no chance at getting the medication I need tomorrow (Petsmart is not open tomorrow). I have the temp at 76-77, changed a third of the water, and I've added salt to the tank. I have checked all water parameters just moments ago and everything checks out, and the fish had seemed very happy about things. The only stress I can think of is the recent change to sand, and the lack of females (trying to get more).

What else do I do if I can't get any products!?! :-?

I'll cross my fingers someone catches this before I leave tomorrow. This is just such my luck


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't imagine there is anything else you can do for columnaris without meds, so try to be satisfied that you have done everything possible, nothing more you can do today and enjoy your day.

Robin has posted in the past that kanamycin (sold as kanaplex, I've only found online) or treating with Maracyn and Maracyn2 simultaneously are recommended for columnaris.

Good luck with your tank!


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Thanks, I'll just try and be content knowing we did what we can until we can get a product. The Yellow labs face is not any worse off looking than last night, so we will cross our fingers that he's just like this when we get home.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone, have a good one


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

An update: Got back from my family yesterday and the Yellow Lab had a the cotton-mouth symptoms appearing (he already had the piece of his face "fall off"). He had his fins clamped and was not using his right fin at all. One of my Acei was showing signs of Columnaris under one of his gills, and the other Acei has a discolored spot under his top fin. Checked water parameters again and did a 30% water change. Went to bed to lay awake for a few hours, stressing about the fish lol.

Woke up today, nothing had worsened in the tank, and in fact the Lab seems quite happy, no longer clamping fins and now using his right fin while swimming. I hopped on my motorcycle (it's cold, waah. Wish I had registered my car in time lol), and went to petsmart. The only related product they had was Melafix (big surprise), so I went to the Petco across town, same thing. I live in a horrible place to want to keep fish apparently, because I can never find anything, especially when I really need it in a hurry. I ended up just buying the Melafix, figuring that I had caught this problem really early and that will give Melafix more chance to work than had I been trying to treat a full-blown issue.

I feel very fortunate to have caught it as early as I did, and even having to wait through Thanksgiving day before I could get anything to help, I think the salt and temp drop really slowed it down. I would feel much better had I been able to find a more reliable product to remedy this, but now I know. I should order anything I MAY need for the future, and just hope I never need to use it.

Can I ask, I know this is a terrible condition (Columnaris), and everything I've read really has my stomach in knots. Is this as bad as I'm thinking it is? I've been preparing myself mentally for the prospect of losing every fish I have, to make sure I don't just quit and give up if that happens. Am I thinking too much into this?


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

Referring to your other post, I see now that you did start a new thread. Having experienced the wrath of Columnaris a few months ago, I would suggest ordering the med's online and have it shipped as quickly as possible.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

I've already ordered them to have on-hand either for the future or for this case if I need it. Unfortunately I did already dose the first day of Melafix already, and I will hope to see improvement before the stuff I ordered shows up. If I do then I will just finish the 7 day treatment with Melafix, or switch treatments after some water changing. *crosses fingers*


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Ok so obviously the "emergency" is over, which was how I felt about it when I noticed but knew I couldn't do anything proper until the day after next. Now that it's no longer Thanksgiving I just need to keep tabs on stuff and hope what I found in town works for the time being.

Here is a pic of my Lab to show what is on his face. I can't get a picture of my Acei to save my life, but the lab loves the camera.










edit: Perhaps this is relevant. Within the last 2 days I've had a big algae bloom on my rocks. It appears brown, but I'm colorblind enough to not be sure (I once wore a green zip-up sweatshirt for 4 years thinking it was brown, hah). It's not caused by too much nitrate, as I've tested and re-tested with practically nil on the reading (also tested with tap and bottled water as controls to make sure). Maybe it's just coincidence, or perhaps its related. *** tried researching the subject a bit, but can't find much of anything. Can't wait to be a fish-guru myself lol


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

I skipped feeding for 2 days when I noticed this. I threw a little food in there a moment ago, mostly because I was curious as to who would and who wouldn't eat with whats going on in the tank. Everyone including the lab was very enthusiastic about it, which I will take as a good sign. I'm still holding my breath though lol, my nerves are shot at this point :lol:


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

I wanted to add also that a few of our fish are rubbing rocks alot, sometimes twitching almost. I've been reading up on this and it all looks like gill flukes.

Am I being a hypochondriac at this point? Can this be associated with what I have already identified? Or should I just throw my hands up and watch my fish die. If this is gill flukes this is getting a little ridiculous. My water parameters are fine and everything checks out. The layout in the tank is very much to their liking, and the only thing I can say caused this (short of the new fish) is the temperature variations before adding a second heater.

edit: I've been inspecting every fish for a while now, and I see no mucus or buildup on/around their gills. Also none are showing having a hard time breathing, no rapid gill movement, and no more trips to the surface of the tank than usual. So it doesn't appear they are going up to gasp for air.

Here is a video of my Blue Cobalt, he's rubbing a lot today. Seems to be focusing on his gills but I'm not 100% on that.


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

Some how you need to get the attention of some of the more experienced folks.

If they are eating, I would also take that as a good sign but I fear that doesn't mean that they are recovering yet. It could still be early, before the worst of it.

Keep being a hypochondriac until you get some more advice from other members and/or you no longer see any symptoms!


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

The ich I can deal with, the Columnaris is a hard blow, but at least has the chance of being managed. I'm praying at this point that the behavior I'm associating with flukes is actually just the other problems I've already caught. I'm officially having a bad day at this point, and I feel like burying my head in the sand.

Plus the Blue Cobalt which is rubbing a lot now shows no external signs of problems at all. No ich, no light spots, no discoloration. So that's making me worry even more now.

I really appreciate any guidance or opinions at this point. I need to restore some sanity. I've been googling and searching posts all day now and all it's doing is making me feel worse or making me doubt myself.

I'm also adding the option of a hospital tank for your idea's if one is needed. I have a 10 gallon already cleaned and ready to set up with a filter (no carbon), airstone, and heater. Catching the fish could be another problem entirely, plus I'm pretty sure the entire tank should be treated (whatever is going on now) since every fish in there has been exposed to this.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Have you treated with the columnaris meds yet?

My fish twitch when I add meds, but usually only right after I add them.

I have no experience with columnaris (I think), but until you treat with the appropriate meds there is not much else to do that you have not already done.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

I dosed the first day (of 7) with Melafix today. It's the only thing I could get in town today and I figured it's better than nothing for the time being. Perhaps I caught it early enough for it to help enough. As far as the twitching with the meds being added, I will keep observing them and see if it subsides, because at the moment I want to say it's becoming more frequent. They have been doing it occasionally for 3-4 days, and at first we thought they were just doing "fish stuff". They may have started doing the twitching/rubbing more often when I added the Melafix, however I can't say, since the first thing I did today besides a quick glance at the tank was go to get medicine. My observation on this day only started slightly before then after the meds were added.

To explain further into the twitching part of it, they tend to do it along the back of the tank. They will swim alongside it, occasionally twitching their head towards the glass every few seconds. I don't yet have a timeframe for how often they are doing that, but so far I have seen the Blue Cobalt and one of the Peacocks do it today.

I am also noticing the lab sometimes just sitting there, then bolting halfway across the tank and stopping. Also sometimes when just staying in one place I have seen a couple fish moving one fin very quickly, sometimes for 30 seconds.

Sorry for so much information I just want to make sure anything I have to help someone more knowledgeable help me make a proper diagnosis.

edit: I am not certain, but I have read around on twitching rubbing and melafix. I read from a few people who said their fish don't like melafix, and twitch/rub when they add it. I will be adding the dose tomorrow in increments, today I poured it slowly across the entire back of the tank to distribute it more evenly, however it might have been a bit much at once for the fish. I say again though that I'm not sure enough of that to relax on the "flukes" thought yet.


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

I like the idea of setting up the 10 gallon. You can isolate the sick fish and it will take less meds to dose the smaller tank. I believe that some meds may kill the beneficial bacteria, so it will aviod that potential problem in you main tank.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

That's true, though I'm afraid I'm too late to do that in this case. I will set it up anyway however, better now than later.

Also, to feel more active in this I cleaned one of the filters, I plan to do the other tomorrow. I had been putting it off for many reasons. I had never done it (nervous). It's hard to get the filters disconnected as the are. I also wanted to use them to their full benefit since I had done the move and used them for a quick-cycle. I'm sure I was making a mistake thinking "meh it's ok my nitrates are very low".

I probably cleaned a half-pound of waste from the one filter..... this guy obviously hadn't cleaned these things since forever ago. I've seen very dirty filters, never a canister. However I'm positive this was not a normal amount of waste, and I'm really glad I got rid of it. Can't wait to get the other tomorrow.

Couple notes just to clarify:
-I have been running the powerheads alone since medicating earlier today to avoid the carbon in the canisters until I could get to them. Now I have the one filter going with the powerheads until I do the other filter tomorrow, also removing the carbon in it.
-I DID remember to clean the filter using only tank water

And an update on the behavior in the tank. 
-I've noticed less rubbing (though they still are) and less twitching. They may be doing it whenever I'm not looking, as I have been preoccupied with the filter for a while. 
-I do still see the occasional "fin flapping" as I'm calling it. Side-fin going crazy (just one side at a time) for about 10-30 seconds. 
-*The raggedy lab is acting somewhat strange and I felt it best to make a quick video to show you guys. This plant has been his favorite safety place from the other yellow lab, but he swims in a strange way at times. Here's that video 



*. A side-note on that lab is he was pretty beat up when we got him, he's looking better than he was then, but he's still raggedy. He's missing fin, but it's from past abuse and I see no signs of disease on him externally.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

I've been observing now for an hour and a half. The cobalt is the only rubber now, he has no external symptoms besides the rubbing.
The yellow lab seems quite unhappy. He's twitching by turning sideways and darting forward with an exaggerated curving of his body. He's also spending a lot of time in the front top corners of the tank. Facing the front and swimming against the current created there with large movements as opposed to his normally easily quick moving self. He's not swimming against the glass or anything, and he is able to move quickly without so much movement still when he wants to.
And the Peacock is doing the "twitch against the back of the tank" thing. He spends most his time chilling around and looking at ease, like normal.

I should add that the Generals are showing absolutely no signs of anything besides the Ich. Which is clearing up nicely for the male, and the poor female is at the point now where the male was yesterday.

The Acei are hard to read because they're... stupid. But they seem content. They do both however do show small signs of Columnaris. They occasionally bolt off in a direction then stop, but they have always done that since I got them. Maybe that means something (that they been mindless swimmers), but I had just been chalking it up to them being,,, well,, stupid.

I also have the fact that I have a disproportionate number of males. This is how it was when I got the tank, and I am looking for females. As it stands I have:
-2 male yellow labs 
-1 male and 1 female peacock
-I'm not sure about the Acei, no matter though (they just swim all the time anyway)

The rest is ok, but I wanted to throw the male/female thing in there in case anyone thinks perhaps that's causing stress. It could make sense if it's possible considering the "alpha" yellow lab is the worst off from what I can tell.


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## Jgorb (Jan 2, 2004)

Fish scratching and flicking can be due to a lowered ph. Check and raise if needed. Hopefully this helps


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

There may be a couple of things going on...sounds like you may have too much aggression as well...but the #1 priority by far has got to be the columnaris and I would expect Melafix to do nothing for it at all. You are already treating the ich with salt and temperature.

I'd ignore everything else and get the meds...I would have tried ordering from an online vendor Thanksgiving eve for overnight delivery...at least for delivery the day after Thanksgiving.

You should expect the columnaris to progress unchecked until the meds are started. If the columnaris meds are on order...then work on the aggression while you wait for it. The lab that is lurking at the surface needs to be isolated from the others. If there is no other tank then a divider or at least a breeder net for a couple days will help.

I just searched for your tank size and stock list. You have a 135G with these fish? I don't know what a Five Star General is. But regarding the Malawi you are understocked...they are harem fish and 1m:4f would work better. Once the illnesses are past you probably want to add fish. The peacock may never be happy with mbuna like the cobalt, but in a large tank you can see if it might work.

2 Five Star General (WC) 
2 Peacock (WC) 
2 Yellow Lab 
1 Blue Cobalt (WC) 
1 Albino Pleco 
1 Standard Pleco 
1 Synodontis Eupterus


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

All the fish get along ok except for the 2 labs, besides them there are no issues with aggression. Even the labs are ok though for the time being. The raggedy one gets chased but soon as he hides the chase is over, it happens maybe 5 or 6 times a day.

I have medication coming as I speak, it will be here in 3 hours. My friend from out of town is grabbing it for me on his way in.

*In 3 hours I will have API Em-Erythromycim as well as Maracyn II. They did not have any Maracyn but the Erythromycim is the same active ingredient. Sound good?

Do I treat with both at once or just one at a time? I know you use Maracyn and Maracyn II at the same time so I assume it's the same deal.*


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yes both at the same time. If the lab is hiding near the surface as you mention, that is the symptom of aggression. Aggression is often not witnessed. I think you need to add fish to your tank as soon as everyone is well. The last thing you need is bloat on top of everything else. Hope all goes well!


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

The buddy bringing me the meds from out of town was initially going to be bringing all the females I needed. I had to cancel that because of these health issues.

As far as the hiding near the surface, the one doing it the most is the dominant lab, not the one he chases from time to time. He's also the worst looking one as far as these problems go. And yes bloat would be a bad thing at this point lol.

Thanks DJ


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Ok so I got the meds and treated the tank for the day. I'm basically using maracyn and maracyn II. Is there any abnormal behavior anyone has seen when treating using these? I'd rather not freak out anymore if I see new strange behavior.

Thanks


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

My fish shakes his head when I put in the meds but other than that he acts normal. Eating, swimming...you would not know he was sick except for the gray patch.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Ok thank you for that DJ I've seen a lot of that today. Now I don't have to worry about that like I would have, you rock.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

I just skimmed the whole thread, and so I hope I'm not missing anything here with my comments.

First- what you think is aggression and what the fish are experiencing are probably not the same thing. :wink: DJ is right- any fish hanging out at the top is losing the battle. Also- do not mistake lack of observed aggression for thinking it's a peaceful tank.

Second- Keep in mind that if you move a fish to a different tank, you will still need to treat all fish for all symptoms. Even if you don't see the outward manifestation of ich, columnaris, etc, all fish have been exposed and are carrrying the disease organism.

Third- I'm worried that you are limiting oxygen by turning off your big filters. If the filters are as dirty as you say, then the carbon isn't doing anything anyway. Yes, clean it ASAP, but turning it off and letting it sit will create a huge anaerobic cesspool if it's as dirty as it sounds.

Make sure you treat for the full recommended time, even if you no longer see signs of disease. Start with fresh carbon when you are done with the medications, and then throw that out after a few weeks. Carbon is not useful unless replaced or regenerated every couple weeks. And, unless you are removing medications, there's little reason to use it in the first place.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

> I just skimmed the whole thread, and so I hope I'm not missing anything here with my comments


Thank you for reading it all, sorry to give you so much to read haha. At this point I'm not feeling so much stress, I think because I've actually done what I can and should be doing now that I got the right meds. I went through your comments and explained a bit into them for ya. Thank you for your input it's very appreciated.



> DJ is right- any fish hanging out at the top is losing the battle. Also- do not mistake lack of observed aggression for thinking it's a peaceful tank.


Oh I'm definitely not saying otherwise. I had fish coming yesterday but had to cancel due to these health problems in the tank. If not for that I would have my male/female ratio all set except for the peacocks, which they didn't have females for.



> Second- Keep in mind that if you move a fish to a different tank, you will still need to treat all fish for all symptoms. Even if you don't see the outward manifestation of ich, columnaris, etc, all fish have been exposed and are carrrying the disease organism.


That's true, I have not moved any fish out of the tank at this point and I don't plan to unless a sick fish is having too much aggression pointed his way. I did set up the 10 gallon just in case something happens though. I also plan on picking up a 20g for a worst case scenario if I need to pull out a couple fish (most notably the five stars).



> Third- I'm worried that you are limiting oxygen by turning off your big filters. If the filters are as dirty as you say, then the carbon isn't doing anything anyway. Yes, clean it ASAP, but turning it off and letting it sit will create a huge anaerobic cesspool if it's as dirty as it sounds.


I have to fix the one that I cleaned, as it's currently sitting in my bathtub. I wouldn't feel right doing the other filter until this one is fixed. Last thing I want is no filtration at all for the time being. I will say though I added airlines to both powerheads as well as an airstone in the middle of the tank. It's probably safe to say there is more oxygen in there than usual lol.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Ok, going to start the 3rd day of treatment today. So far I have not lost any fish, they have all been acting funny however. Everyone is in the top right of the tank, near the surface. They've been doing it for 2 days now, thought they do not look distressed or short of breath. I'm hoping that is just the medication. Also the yellow labs face is looking much better, I won't hold my breath, but it is nice to have a good sign once in a while.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Hanging out up there is a sign that something besides just the meds is a problem. What do you have for filtration on there right now? What is the temp? Have you checked nitrates or ammonia since moving the big filters?


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

For filtration I have one knockoff eheim canister, and a new Rena XP4 that I just hooked up today to become the only filtration once it's established. Temp is 76.5. Ammonia is between 0 and .25ppm. Nitrates are between 10-20ppm. 
Every one of them is very much enjoying food also.

Here's a pic of what they are doing, the water is cloudy due to meds, but not nearly as cloudy as this camera makes it look.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

One XP4 might not be sufficient for a 135G...I have two of them on my 125G and would not go lower. That combination of meds did not make my tank the least bit cloudy...maybe look for other reasons for the cloudy water. I've been treating a fish for what might be columnaris for a while now and I do notice there was no impact on eating or lively behavior...just the leison.

For me the leison went completely away during the course of the meds, but came back once the course of meds were complete...several days after. 

I'd try some extra filtration to see if you have oxygenation problems. For me I just stick on an extra HOB and if the fish go back to their rocks, problem solved. If not I keep trying to ID the problem.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

I think the cloudiness is a bacterial bloom- and the bacteria are using oxygen. Your fish need more aeration, and some more water changes while the tank is going through this process. Add Prime to counter the ammonia.

The new XP4 will help, but in no way is going to be sufficient filtration for your tank. I run an XP3 on a 40 gallon, and still have an extra powerhead for circulation. With your stocking level, the entire volume of water should circulate 6-10 times an hour- so your filtration total should be at least 800 gallons per hour. A HOB (hang on the back) filter would be a nice complement to the XP4- look at the AC110 for an example.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

For the time being I still have my old large canister going in tandem with it for the next month at least. Plenty of filtration, plenty of water movement, plenty of oxygen. I ensured the oxygen part by hooking up the powerheads again today with airlines. Plus the XP4 is disturbing the surface of the water halfway across the tank. The water has been "mega oxygenated" recently because I've been using the powerheads to blow air to help with oxygen while medicating along with an airstone. Lets just say there's so many tiny air bubbles moving through the water that my wife is getting agitated because she can't see everything. I'm sure it's no oxygenated wonderland, considering the meds, the bacteria bloom, and the illness, but I'm very confident there's more than enough oxygen in there for those guys.

I'm seeing the lesions get better, but I'm also seeing a lot of spotting, like Ich. I can't tell if it's still the Ich, I keep forgetting it hasn't been that long since finding these problems, so to have Ich flaring up on other fish just now is unsettling, and makes me wonder if it IS actually Ich. But like I said the Ich showed up on it's first fish 5 days ago, so I'm fairly confident it's not a further issue.

As far as the cloudy water, I've done every test I have so many times each day it's ridiculous. Nitrates nitrites ammonia ph, am I missing anything here? I don't want to just do another water change (did 2 50% changes before treating with maracyn + maracyn2, one 25% yesterday) because I don't want to interfere with the Maracyn treatment.

Water conditions:
Ammonia- .15ppm
Nitrate- .13ppm
Nitrite- .10ppm
PH- 8.0

The haze I was speaking of is the yellow color of the maracyn 2. It clears up a bunch before the next days treatment. That picture was not long after treatment. Also like I said it wasn't nearly as hazy as the picture made it look, I can look in one end of the tank and see the other side no problem.

I'm not trying to just shoot down any idea's you have, I really *really* appreciate your input on this and I don't want to seem like I'm not acknowledging your advice. I know there is no miracle post that can *poof* and make my fish better. At this point perhaps I should just realize I'm doing what I can and what happens,,, happens. It pains me to think of losing these fish, but I have to draw the line somewhere. 160$ spent on meds alone for a 5 day treatment. I still have not lost a single fish, all are still eating, the yellow labs face is obviously healing now. I have to try and find solace in these observations, and just hope for the best.

Edit: Looks like I'm going to lose one of the Acei today. Since writing the this post I found him being very lethargic, swimming at times but mostly sitting on his bottom fins on the sand. I removed him from the tank and put him into quarantine if for nothing else to keep other fish from picking on him. I'm not expecting him to make it at this point  . If only I could sum up my feelings with "frustration" but it doesn't come close


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Also, is it normal for small bubbles to stick to fish when using powerheads to oxygenate the water? Both powerheads are going, and for some reason the airline by itself isn't pulling air so I added an air pump split between both powerheads. Lots and lots and lots of tiny bubbles going around the tank. Would they stick normally or am I looking at a problem with their slime coat?

Here are some pics of my dead Acei. The white splotches on him were not very noticeable until he died. I watched him die, so he had been dead about 5 minutes at this time.

















Notice the splotches behind and under his gills, under his eye, and on his mid-section.

In the main tank, the fish are no longer crowding up at the top right of the tank like they were. They had been hanging around there for about 3 days until now. I have added their meds today also so it's not just the water being less medicated. I had the powerheads blasting air bubbles but I'm seeing a lot of bubbles on fish and started worrying about gas bubble disease or whatever it is, and turned off the air, but left the powerheads running. It may be the amount of circulation in the tank causing them to stop hanging out on the top right. Just in case is was the air I raised the spraybar and it's stream is actually clearing the water surface and spraying back down. That should be plenty of agitation, as it's quite turbulent on the left side of the tanks surface.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Acei #2 is down, so that's both the Acei. The two fish I had gotten at the pet shop I drove to. I'm not doubting that they probably brought something into my tank (hitting myself for not having a quarantine at the time), but is it possible they were just the weaker of the fish in the tank? They either both died because they were already ill when I got them, or Acei are just more susceptible to disease. Obviously this is just a thought, anyone with experience to say otherwise?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I do see bubbles sticking to the fish for a time after a water change.

I would not say Acei are more susceptible to disease. Hard to say what caused them to die. Sorry for your losses.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Thanks DJ. I can deal with the Acei passing, they were new additions. I feel bad about it but I just want to focus on the other fish now. The male Peacock seems to be the one on the decline now, so I'll be crossing my fingers for him. As far as the bubbles, thank you for that info. I had been changing the water a bit recently so that might be all it is.

The peacock seems to be swimming at a slight tilt, maybe 10 or 15 degrees. It doesn't seem in distress, but it is clamping fins at times. Is the tilt an ominous sign?


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Stop feeding completely- nothing for the rest of the week.

Nitrites and Ammonia combined with one or more diseases... topped off with the stress of medication. I think you've got your hands full. 

Bubbles are normal... measurable nitrite and ammonia are not.

See what you can do to get those values to zero. Hopefully your new filter will colonize quickly, although the antibiotics are going to mess that up. After the meds are done and you do a massive water change, start feeding again, but do so at very low levels. Your fish do not need food right now- they need clean water.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Well I've learned a valuable lesson today, luckily it was in my favor when discovering it. I'm colorblind,,, not fully, but I'm pretty bad with shades and stuff, though I try to get by (much to the enjoyment of my wife, who finds it hilarious when I get it wrong). I had her look at the tests, then I had a buddy who came over look at them. They say my nitrite is zero and my ammonia is zero. I could have sworn they were darker than what both of them were saying, but I'm in no position to doubt them lol. The nitrates I stated earlier still stand, as I had my same buddy check that for me the other night, hence the eerily specific number of .13ppm hah.

Anyone know of a reliable test that doesn't use colors? I sure would love something I could easily check without needing someone else.

Oh ya, and that means I'm in the clear on those. I wouldn't have caught this issue yet if not for you triscuit, and probably would have started messing with things to correct an issue that wasn't there. So thanks 

Would it be a bad idea to treat with Jungle Parasite Cure as well? I know I had the ich in there, I can't be sure I don't have internal parasites. As my labs do have concave bellies now. Is it a harsh treatment for fish? Should I wait to use it after the end of the maracyn treatment?


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Well, I just watched my favorite fish die, the one in my avatar. He was looking a bit down and then bam, he just went. When at the end he had very pronounced stringy cottony looking strands hanging from him. Classic columnaris I assume?

I'm very saddened by the loss of this Otter Point Jake. He was my absolute favorite fish in the tank, and I was very excited to have him for the time that I did. I made a terrible mistake by not using a qt like I knew I should, I should have just made the room to put one in somewhere. Now I'm losing my favorite fish, wc no less, just because of 2 plain Acei. I'm going to bed, and I'll just hope I don't lose anymore during the night.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

I'm sorry we couldn't help him.

The test tube kits are the best option... don't know what to tell you other than you can always bring a sample into your LFS. Nitrate readings are whole numbers in increments of 5. 0.13 makes no sense at all, ever. :wink: In an established tank, I expect to see at least 10 ppm of nitrate, and in poorly maintained tanks folks report nitrate in excess of 100 ppm.

I would wait on any further meds for right now. The columnaris is the killer here- get that under control first.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

> Nitrate readings are whole numbers in increments of 5. 0.13 makes no sense at all, ever.


Hurp durp I meant 13 not .13 :lol:

We woke up to our Albino Pleco dead in the tank also today  . It's ok though, I feel terrible about it, but we'll start over if we need to. I already lost the fish I was trying really hard to keep alive, so now I'll just wait and see. At least the FSG's are looking tip-top, we can find comfort in that for now.

Thank you for all the advice thus far, there's nothing you could have done for my fishies that you haven't done already


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Still want to know what a five star general is.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

> Still want to know what a five star general is


Hemichromis elongatus

Here's my pair  He's full grown at 6". We're actually planning on giving them their own tank once this is over, since we're losing fish it will make it easier to start again anyway. Plus they'll most surely breed that way.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Just an update for today. I lost one of the labs (the sad looking one). I don't want to speak too soon, but the other lab seems to be pulling through. His face completely healed and I think I can chalk up any strange behavior now in him to stress from the meds. I'm not holding my breath for anything at this point though.

Today was the last day of treatment with Marcayn + Maracyin 2. I can't afford any more medicine after 5 days of treatment on a tank this large. 160 bucks didn't do the trick apparently, as whoever was looking bad is gone now. So I'll be doing some substantial water changes tomorrow. How much water should I change you you think? Maybe a 50% water change every day for a few days?

I'm thinking about treating for Ich tomorrow, as I am seeing new Ich parasites on the female FSG. I've had the tank salted this whole while, so I may want to kick it up a notch depending on how harsh a parasite treatment would be on the fish. Can anyone answer that for me?

_So just asking how should I go about my large water changes to clear the meds, as well as how harsh are parasite meds to fish?_


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

I have changed the pictures of the dead fish to cute fuzzy kittens. That is all


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Sorry for your losses, it stinks to have illness in your tank.  I'd do a 90% water change one time.

I'd also watch the lab with the columnaris spot because as mentioned mine did come back a couple days after treatment each time. The Maracyn and Maracyn2 treatment can be repeated once, but maybe put that one lab in the hospital to reduce the dosage.

The salt-heat for three weeks should have cured your ich...has it been three weeks?


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

I got hit hard by a flu bug today, so I'm just now getting around to the water change, thank you for the advice. I did a 90% water change and I have my salt measured and dissolved to start adding to the tank.

You're right about the ich, it hasn't been long, it just feels like it has been lol. My concern was that I thought I saw new ich on fish. I'll keep a close eye on that as well as the yellow lab, he's not in the clear yet I'm sure.


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

How's it going Teggy?


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Losing fish every day sadly. All I have left are the two Hemichromis elongatus, the blue cobalt, one catfish, and one pleco. The female Hemichromis elongatus has just started sitting on the bottom of the tank, like all the others before they died. The male is going to follow close behind it seems, and the cobalt is still flashing rocks like crazy. Even my large pleco and catfish look like they're going to bite the bullet. I did all I can, I'm out of options and money. All I can do is wait for the tank to be void of all fish apparently. Very frustrating and depressing


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

I'm sorry for your losses. It's very painful to watch our fish die after we've tried everything. Not that it's any consolation, but columnaris is fast moving, deadly, and difficult to cure. You did what you could.

When you are ready to rebuild your tank, make sure you've sterilized everything and quarantine any new fish for at least three weeks prior to adding to the big tank.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Big Bummer..
Going over all the Q&A on this, probably no one single thing caused all your grief.
Think you just got a tank load of bad luck and trouble in a big rush.

Good luck on the new improved tank.
Think you will make any changes on stocking for the new one?


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## amusrobs (Nov 6, 2010)

I watched your rubbing video. My chilids do that all the time. Especially the dominant ones. I thought that it was a teritory thing. You know... leaving a scent like a dog, but I could be wrong. Anyone else know? 
Hospital tank is a good plan too. We use ours all the time. Less meds=lower cost. Good luck!!


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Thank you for the kind words. We have some valuable lessons to take away from this experience. Some of which include the quarantine tank, keeping reliable products on-hand to avoid the extra time and hardship it took to get what we needed, and lets not forget having someone that isn't color impaired check your tests. I've already painted the stand and prepped the 40g tank for our quarantine tank. We were going to keep the FSG's in there from then on, but it's looking like they aren't going to make it. So we'll just have to make another plan.

Our plans at this point are to set up the 40g tank and if there are any survivors move them to it. That will let us take the time we need to clean and prep everything like we didn't have the chance to do when moving it here, because of the fish we were transporting. I will set up all the plumbing that will be needed for jets and the sump most likely at this point too. However if it appears someone in the tank may pull through I will give them more time without disturbing them before I do all that.

I don't want to give up on my dream of a beautiful Malawi tank, so I plan on an all Malawi stocking. I had a couple of fish I was looking at but I really want to feed off of your suggestions. I had made a thread about it a while back, hoping to get my mind off of the losses in the tank. I would love some input from anyone who cares to share their suggestions  http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/...5&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

I want to again thank everyone who helped me out in this thread with your advice and knowledge. It was because of all of you that I was able to do all I could for these fish, and that helps ease the loss a bit. It was all very much appreciated :thumb:


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Sorry for your losses, Teggy. Sometimes fish will get one thing and then because they're not feeling well that leaves them open to other things, things that they would normally be able to fight off and it's a real challenge to figure out what to treat and often by the time you do, it's too late.

Your experience, while not uncommon, is not the norm, so yeah, look forward to a beautiful Malawi tank. As awful and difficult as this has been, you're learned a ton about fish and that'll go along way.

Robin

And I never saw the pics of the dead fish but despite the sadness of this thread I laughed out loud at the cats in the sink. Thank you.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

> And I never saw the pics of the dead fish but despite the sadness of this thread I laughed out loud at the cats in the sink. Thank you.


Lol good, I realized there was really no point of showing those after the fact. Not like I needed help diagnosing at that point. So I figured hey, fluffy kitties.
And yes, live and learn. That is unfortunately how most people need to really take it in. I enjoy researching most of all when it comes to this stuff, yet I still botched it up. Thank you for the positive words, I will be hoping for a more prosperous tank in the near future.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

I wont go on to say what fish I've lost in the last day, as it's all getting a bit redundant I suppose. I've been watching closely and the Blue Cobalt I have to say is just as perky as ever, swimming around and just having a grand old time. I would like to think that he and the male FSG will make it (ya I did lose the female sadly), but the remaining FSG has hazy eyes and I'm not counting on much there. I'll keep you updated on any good news that comes along


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

I wanted to pop in and say that it looks like this may be over. The male FSG is 100% cleared up (eyes too), as well as the Blue Cobalt. Both are looking very happy, extending fins and eating and such. I also still have the catfish that I had before getting this tank, so that's good news as well. Looks like now I can finally start the planning of what to do next.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Glad to hear you have turned the corner!


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

Good to hear!


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Thanks much, it's good it wasn't a complete wipe. I'm stoked to at least still have the beautiful cobalt and the large male fsg, not to mention the large syno tanganyika that I had before all of this making it as well.

Tomorrow I'll be starting to set up the 40g tank and I'll go pick up a female FSG, I saw one at the lfs about 30 minutes away for 10 bucks believe it or not. After a month I'll toss the male in there and start hoping for the best


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Buy a bunch of large, inexpensive tetras (like Buenos Aires) to keep the big tank cycled. If they are fine for a month you should be OK restocking.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Well at this point what I'm thinking is..
- set up smaller tank
- fill with water from large tank
- hook up second filter from large tank to smaller one
- move fish to smaller tank
- do all the work and arranging I want in the large tank without time constraints (plumbing, sump, etc)

I'll probably be keeping the water in the large tank, though I may still do the cheap fish test for a while before moving these fish back and getting new stock.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Then feed ammonia to the big tank so you don't lose your bacteria?


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Oh lol that went right over my head. I had other stuff on my mind when I posted that... yes you mean to keep the inexpensive fish in the large tank while it's empty to keep the cycle going. I will do that, thank you for driving it home for me lmao.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Ammonia would work too. Just seems the tank is not toxic since your cobalt and others survived, so why not maintain the bacteria.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

My thoughts exactly at this point. I had been developing a plan that was based around needing to change/clean the tank, but like you said it seems to be ok now so why waste it. I will definitely be continuing the cycle in the large tank now, considering how long it would take to cycle again I'm sure.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

I didn't follow this post blow by blow, (just dropped in for the fluffy kitties pics  ), but if the problem was in fact Columnaris then you should feel confident using the big tank without any sort of breakdown and cleaning. The bacteria that causes Columnaris is one that commonly resides in your aquarium--harmless until the fish becomes stressed. So the best way to avoid a re-occurrence is to keep your tank as stress free as possible.

Robin


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Just finished setting up the 40 gallon, and I'm happy with how it came out. I'll post a pic once the water clears a bit more. My plan will be to have these inexpensive fish keeping the 40g cycling, and keep the 3 remaining fish in the large tank. Like you said the best thing to do right now is minimize stress on them. To keep with that my plan will instead be to use this smaller tank as a quarantine once I get new fish, then once that is done I will move the large FSG to this 40g while keeping the new female in there from quarantine. They'll then have their tank to themselves and the other fish will be at home in the large tank. That should minimize stress on them as much as possible.

I'm just weary to have the FSG's in the large tank anymore once I get the new fish. They have a reputation for being the "I'm gonna eat you and if I can't I'm gonna beat you up" type of fish. They seemed perfectly fine before, but now with all the new fish coming I don't want to risk it. Besides, the male/female will be much happier on their own I'm sure, even if it is a smaller tank.

I've had to forfeit the idea of moving the large tank away from the wall to make it easier to retouch the paint on the back. I just don't want to risk any more stress on the fish I have left. Draining the water enough to do that would certainly require moving the fish, or at very least draining the water to a very stress inducing level for them.

This is my plan thus far, feel free to point out any faults you may see in it. I certainly don't want to make any further mistakes.


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## Teggy (Nov 5, 2010)

Here's a pic of the 40 gallon all set up. Can't get the camera to take a decent picture for some reason so it looks cloudy, but it's actually clear. Picked up 8 danio's and 6 gourami to keep it cycling. I'll probably give the gouramis to a friend once I get all the future fish home, but the Giant Danios are something I've always liked, and I'm confident they'll be ok in either tank once all is said and done. They're hardy little buggers lol.

Just for the record I despise the fake ornaments in there. The rock is legit, but everything else is fake. I'm hoping I'll have found/purchased a nice piece of driftwood before the FSG's make their home in this tank. I will say though that the one on the left isn't meant to sit like that and that makes me like how it looks more lol.


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