# Gold x Rotkeil Severum?



## Nathan43 (Jul 9, 2007)

Does anyone know what a cross between these two would produce? I think my gold may spawn with one of my rotkeils (Expensive feeders :? ) and was wondering what I should expect. Thanks


----------



## GBSTEVE (Dec 10, 2007)

I believe you get a mix of both red / rotkeil fry - I haven't found anyone with experience to tell me if the offspring later breed true to type.
Fingers crossed I'll find out this time


----------



## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Hard to say since they are differant species. I've never bred a gold to a green (which are the same species), so not sure if the golds are recessive or not.


----------



## MetalHead06351 (Oct 3, 2007)

the same thing is about to happen in my girlfriends tank, I was wondering how they would turn out too.


----------



## GBSTEVE (Dec 10, 2007)

Well, I have some fry at around15mm now - VERY low survival rate (about one dozen from approx 150 hatched) and they all have stripes and no red body colour at all - further net-browsing tells me the red is not recessive, so this would appear the case. My fry are now starting to get red colouring on the fins - no sign of red shoulders as yet. Growth rate of fry is very different through the brood, too. 1/3the survivors are still around 5mm.


----------



## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

My guess is as adults, they'd be a muddled mix of rotties and greens, as further research seems to bare out the gold is recessive.

Not surprised at the low survival rate, golds are nortorious for that, a hybrid between a gold and something else I'd imagine would be even worse.


----------



## HiImSean (Apr 5, 2007)

my pair have spawned about 10 times but the fry always get eaten. im putting them in a tank by themselves this winter so maybe ill get some fry to make it


----------



## Heros_Rotkiel (Oct 8, 2008)

Mutts? I gotta ask - why would you want to ruin such a nice fish to start with?


----------



## GBSTEVE (Dec 10, 2007)

Mutts? from an "aquarium strain" gold? As far as I can tell it's not concluded yet if the rotkeil is a different species? early pictures of rotties also seem to differ from what we now seem to accept as rotkeils- no severum striping in many - besides, it's the fish that decided to spawn :lol: I was more interested in raising the Uaru that spawned in the same tank - and they had eggs so I moved the sevs and left them to it.

Red sevs - aquarium strain
Super red sevs - aquarium strain
Rot / red sevs- aquarium strain?

Like the OP, I was interested and still am to see what will come from these parents


----------



## GBSTEVE (Dec 10, 2007)

Mutts? from an "aquarium strain" gold? As far as I can tell it's not concluded yet if the rotkeil is a different species? early pictures of rotties also seem to differ from what we now seem to accept as rotkeils- no severum striping in many - besides, it's the fish that decided to spawn :lol: I was more interested in raising the Uaru that spawned in the same tank - and they had eggs so I moved the sevs and left them to it.

Red sevs - aquarium strain
Super red sevs - aquarium strain
Rot / red sevs- aquarium strain?

Like the OP, I was interested and still am to see what will come from these parents


----------



## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

rotties are wild caught, so deffinately not an aquarium strain. They are currently considered a seperate species from green sevs, but as of yet they have not been fully described.


----------



## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

They are classified as different species, which necessarily means there's a reproductive barrier. Theoretically they can produce F1 hybrids (the fry you have now), but the F1s should be sterile (horse x donkey = mule). This is of course all in theory, so please do keep up posted.


----------



## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

There are currently 5 species of Heros; efasciatus, notatus, severus, spurius, and sp. 'red shoulders' (rotkeil).


----------



## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Don't forget the two newest undescribed species, _Heros sp. â€˜Atabapoâ€™_ and _Heros sp. sp. â€˜Iniridaâ€™_ that were just recently established.


----------



## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Man they are finding everything in the Rio Atabapo. It's ?!? sp. â€˜Atabapoâ€™ this, !?! sp. â€˜Atabapoâ€™ that.

I didn't know about the two new undescribed species. I did know that there was a Heros species found throughout the Orinoco drainage, but always thought it was a efasciatus variant.


----------



## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Yeah, differant color phases of _Biotodoma wavrini_ and _Laetacara fulvipinnis_, that new blue acara from there, two new large pikes, the orinico dwarf pike, the new sev ... it's wild.

There is a green variant yes, but the two from these rivers are differant enough that they warrented undescribed status as new species ... of course one a more indepth look is made, they still may be like the rotkiels just a green varient like the turquoise were/are.

Actually, if I remember right the two new ones are closer to notatus than efasciatus, especially in coloration and possible breeding (Inirida is thought to be a mouth brooder).


----------



## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

I'm sure I came accross a thread way back when this happened before and it was a mixed brood - 25% one the rest the other, and it seemed to stick roughly to that trend (although I was looking at a lot of different happenings like that so wouldn't be surprised if I got % muddled) so I guess it depends on which colour morph is carrying the dominant genes, right.

Wish I could find it.

You certainly can get aquarium strain Rotties, but not from any farm that I know of - seems to be more of a personal breeder level that this happens - probably due to how finicky they are, just ask Gerry (*Northshore*) how easily his gave up their fry.

When we talk about the Inirida how newly discovered are we talking here, I mean they've been around a while. Cool fish: http://www.raubwelse.de/galerie/cichliden/c234.htm

I wonder if these are what are currently being sold as the "pineapple" sevs?

Here's a good site for sev images, although as dwarfpike has noticed a few have been collapsed and merged together - blah :lol: I like some distinguishing features instead of all this clumping together:
http://www.raubwelse.de/galerie/cichliden/cichliden.htm


----------



## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Well .. in our hobby ... 'new' usually means 15 years or less. 

Though sometimes it's longer ... _Cichlasoma_ being restricted is still often said to be new despite the fact it was restricted in 1982. :lol:


----------



## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

:lol:


----------



## GBSTEVE (Dec 10, 2007)

peathenster said:


> They are classified as different species, which necessarily means there's a reproductive barrier. Theoretically they can produce F1 hybrids (the fry you have now), but the F1s should be sterile (horse x donkey = mule). This is of course all in theory, so please do keep up posted.


It's been a while, eh? Due to other commitments the remaining dozen fry went into the community tank and have now paired off between themselves, 3 x pairs. Only 1 male has reached a decent size with sizes going down to 3"!

Several clutches have been laid, but not lasted until hatching - until this week The smallest of the pairs now have a good brood of wrigglers which, as I type, are rising to free swimming with the diminutive parents bravely holding more than half of a 100 gall. tank.

All of the first generation are carbon copies of the rotkeil, but minus the red shoulder - body colour is predominantly turquoise -


----------



## bpman25 (Oct 21, 2010)

too bad, I was hoping you would see red shouldered golds.


----------



## Chromedome52 (Jul 25, 2009)

bpman25 said:


> too bad, I was hoping you would see red shouldered golds.


He still might in the next generation. Gold is a known recessive gene, so crossing it with a normal would produce all normals carrying the gold gene. So if he gets an F2 generation, there will definitely be golds, about 1/4 of them.

The red marking, I do not have any information on whether that can be passed on through crossing with other lines or not. It would be quite interesting to see what happens in his next generation.


----------

