# future apistogramma addict



## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Hey guys,

I picked up a trio (1m, 2f) of apistogramma Iniridae and another pair of Atahualpa. If I get these guys breeding as fast as my last pair then a may become one of those people with a bizilion 10 gallon tanks 

If you have not already, try some apistogramma!


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

I don't think the _A. iniridae_ will be that cooperative ... even the expert breeders have trouble with that one. It's one of the most blackwater species available. Good luck though. :thumb:


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Dwarf,

I did not know they were any harder. Would Cutting my water with RO help? I'm guessing I need a PH of below 6?


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

One of our local apisto breeders has his Iniridae breeding. He had to drop his PH down to app. 4.6 with a very low TDS reading. I can not find his thread about spawning them unfortunately, just some fry photos.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Seems like some people have no trouble with them and others never have success. I still have to grow mine out, but I can't wait to see if they spawn for me.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*ahud*
no trouble keeping them? or no problem breeding them? 
IME, these guys were a breeze to keep, but not a single egg hatched in my hard water when I had them up in Ontario, Canada. They were rare to spawn even, or I missed the spawning each time.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

I think *ahud* might be reading the thread on Apistogramma forums. Most of the guys sharing thier experiences are die hard apisto keepers. Mike Wise provides an interesting bit of info from his experience.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I'm sure they are difficult, I will grow them out and if I don't have any luck I'll pass them along and try something different


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## Anthraxx8500 (Feb 11, 2011)

im sure youll make it work. like i said before try out the leaves method. i know that will lead to some serious black water action. u can order leaves straight from SA/CA or just use dried oak leaves.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

You can use either RO or rain water to help lower the PH of your tank, and using certain leaves will acidify your water further. I use 50%-50% rain water and tap water, then add one ketapang leaf (Indian almond leaf) each week when I do a water change. One leaf last about three weeks in my tanks as the otocinclus and rams horn snails like to snack on them.


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## David Kipperman (Nov 21, 2010)

They are one of the toughest Apisto's to breed. I have spawned them with ph of 4.6 and tds in the 2-3 range. Very tough Apisto!


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## Fishguy28 (Feb 5, 2007)

I had iniridae spawn once, what a P.I.T.A that was but they are definitely on my list of top 10 favorite Apistos. The atahualpa should be no problem at all, the only issue I had with them was aggression from the female. Good luck!


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I'm going to admit defeat  The two Iniridae died. I could not get them to eat good, so I think they just wasted away. The male eats and looks to be in good health. I think I will pass the male on and try for an easier to keep species.

I already have two pairs of atahualpa. They are by far my favorite so far.

What are some of you guys favorite? I want something that will breed in my water which is ph of 6, DH and KH 1-3.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

The agassizii super complex is by far my favourite group of apistos. There are so many good looking location and colour morphs.

Locally many hobbiests have had gret success with breeding panduro. I have found species from the regani complex and cruzi subcomplex relatively straight forward to care for and breed. Most of the cruzi subcomplex species are stunning fish.

However, if you're not keeping most apistos in the optimum conditions, they can be hard to breed and with many hard to keep alive long term. A fine sand substrate or a mix of sand and peat substrate is a must, so to is soft acidic water. Tank scape is important, but we have found there is a pretty wide range of scapes that the fish will live in comfortably.

If you can't get the water right, you are likely to struggle. A couple of our locally well respected hobbiest and specialist LFS have a belief that most soft water dwarf cichlids will develop intestinal and/or bacterial problems (and die in the short to medium term) if kept in water too hard for them. From my own experiences, I agree with them.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I thought my water is considered pretty soft and acidic? From what I read there are plenty of species to choose from besides the fish that need super low acidity. Anything that needs 3-4 PH I want to stay away from.


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## Fishguy28 (Feb 5, 2007)

If you want to stay away from the species that prefer really soft water, which is quite unstable in aquariums anyway, then you might want to check out apistogramma .com and find out what species are from white or clear water habitats that may be available to you.

My all time favorite is Biotoecus opercularis not an Apisto but still an awesome dwarf. They reputedly need very soft water to reproduce but my wild group never did until I used a 70/30 mix of ro and tap to get a ph of 6.8 and a bit higher tds.

















A lot of it is just experimenting with water conditions until you find something they like. The loss of your iniridae may have been due to handling while being captured, shipped, ect. ect.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Commercial strains of A. cacatuoides are usually the easiests of the apistos to keep and spawn. However a lot of people do not like thier look.

My personal favourite are A. agassizii. There are so many different wild locational variants and colour morphs, and there are quite a few good looking commercial line bred strains as well.

A lot of local beginners have had good success with A. panduro and A. baenschi.

Apistos from the Regani complex appear to be quite forgiving as well, locally hobbiests have been having success with A. cruzi, A. eunotus, A. masken, A. sp. "Pebas" ("Morado"), and A. sp. "Papagei"


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I spawned f1 Atahualpa with no problems. I feel like I can handle a bit more than the commercial strains (I don't like them TBH), but want to avoid fish that even the pros have trouble with. I already have a RO/DI from my saltwater days, so I can start playing with RO mixes.

I'm ordering some indian almond leaves soon too.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

*Fishguy28*

I will check those out! They look awesome.


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## michael l (Aug 16, 2009)

ahud, you live in s carolina, pick up dried oak leaves, they work just as well as almond leaves and are free, just remember pick up only the ones that have fallen off the tree and are dried, it worked for me, too bad i don't have oak trees here


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

There are many good looking SA dwarf cichlids, you don't have to stick to apistogramma. You could check out profiles for, Dicrossus, Cleithracara, Crenicara, Ivanacara, Laetacara, Nannacara, and Taeniacara. Some genus only have one or two species, while others half a dozen.

There are also quite a few different West African dwarf cichlids that have similar needs to South American dwarves.

My latest purchase is a pair of Nannacara anomala.

Male









Female


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## Fishguy28 (Feb 5, 2007)

ahud said:


> I spawned f1 Atahualpa with no problems. I feel like I can handle a bit more than the commercial strains (I don't like them TBH), but want to avoid fish that even the pros have trouble with. I already have a RO/DI from my saltwater days, so I can start playing with RO mixes.
> 
> I'm ordering some indian almond leaves soon too.


Most of the Cacatuoides complex are very forgiving most coming from the whitewater or clearwater habitats of Eastern Peru.

atahualpa are one of my favorites, I did notice that they lay unusually large eggs for an Apisto.

panduro, steindachneri and as DFF said baenschi along with the common species of the regani complex are great choiced too.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Hey guys,

I'm going to try those nanacara anomala and I might be getting some apisto. Hongsloi.

Thanks for the picture Deadfishfloating. I think my LFS has some.


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## Anthraxx8500 (Feb 11, 2011)

nice suggestion. i dig em. may have to go try getting my big male a girl again.. she died after poping out a few too many litters. idk


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

DeadFishFloating said:


> There are many good looking SA dwarf cichlids, you don't have to stick to apistogramma. You could check out profiles for, Dicrossus, Cleithracara, Crenicara, Ivanacara, Laetacara, Nannacara, and Taeniacara. Some genus only have one or two species, while others half a dozen.
> 
> There are also quite a few different West African dwarf cichlids that have similar needs to South American dwarves.
> 
> ...


Where can I find some information on these fish?


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... php?id=147
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/n ... nomala.php

The article, while not going in to great detail is right about the females aggression. In the photos above, the female is showing spawning colours. While I can not see where the eggs are, I am sure she is guarding some eggs under the ketapang leaf to her left. She has been very aggressive and chases the male on sight.

The black pipe you see above the male is actually three by 2.5inch drainage pipes zip tied together, the pipes are about 4inches long. They float at the surface and make for a good safety refuge for harrassed fish.

I removed the male yesterday, as he has spent the majority of the last two days hiding up in the pipes.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Hi deadfishfloating,

I found the article on nannacara, but what about ivanacara, cleithacara and creniacara?


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

You can go into the species section of C-F and find information on many species. Otherwise try google, but you have work out what reads like bs and what appears to be close to the mark.

A good forum that specialises in dwarves is Apistogramma Forums.


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## Fishguy28 (Feb 5, 2007)

ahud said:


> Hi deadfishfloating,
> 
> I found the article on nannacara, but what about ivanacara, cleithacara and creniacara?


I believe Ivanacara adoketa needs very soft water and from what I hear are quite aggressive.
Cleithacara border on dwarf/medium size cichlids
Crenicara, as for these guys I haven't seen one for almost 20 years.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I bought a large air pump, and four more tanks so I'm going to more room to experiment. I'm for sure going to try A. panduro, A. agazzi, and Nanacara Anomala. I still have a tank or two open incase something else shows up. OH, I also want A. Borellii!


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Where do plan on keeping the fry? I have three tanks for every breeding pair I keep.

A breeding tank. I try and leave the fry with the parents for as long as possible. Some times this is as short as 4 weeks before the parents get busy again, some times it can stretch out to 8 weeks. But once the parents (female) brings out a new brood of fry, the older fry are viewed as a threat, and are picked off, especially if they get too close to an apisto female and her new fry. If you intend to grow out a batch for sale or trade, they need to be removed from thier parents before a new batch of fry arrive.

A fry tank. Once I remove the fry from thier parents, they go into a small, bare bottom tank. They recieve 2 or 3 feeds of bbs and/or small fry food a day, and a 50% water change every second day. Regular, small feeds and constant water changes and waste removal are essential for good fry growth. A number of factors determine how long the fry spend in the fry tank, but I try for 6 weeks if possible.

A growout tank. These tanks are bare bottom, but I have driftwood with anubis, java fern and java moss in these tanks. The driftwood and plants help some fry escape from thier larger, more aggressive brothers and sisters. I feed these guys 1 or 2 times a day and do a water change and vac twice a week. It can take up to 6 months from when fry are free swimming to when they are all sold. I like to have a good idea at the sex ratios, and to see if any of the males or females are potentially good looking enough to keep for future stock.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I'm not planning on keeping many fry. With the atahualpa I will grow out a small group of females to add to my 120g which is basically going to be an Atahualpa/harlequin rasbora tank.

As for the other pairs, I will end up using the fry as feeders unless someone in my club is interested in fry. I don't have the time or the tank space to grow out/raise fry.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

OK.

Then I highly recommend looking out for one of the Pebas subcomplex species; A. sp. Papagei, A. sp. Roca Eterna, A. sp. Putumayo, or A. sp. Pebas. There are a few locational variants of A. sp. pebas that are all very nice. As a whole, these subcomplex species are beautiful.

Or try and source Apistogramma (cf.) bitaeniata and Apistogramma agassizii "Flamenco". Both species are from the Rio Tigre and are stunning.


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## Fishguy28 (Feb 5, 2007)

ahud said:


> I bought a large air pump, and four more tanks so I'm going to more room to experiment. I'm for sure going to try A. panduro, A. agazzi, and Nanacara Anomala. I still have a tank or two open incase something else shows up. OH, I also want A. Borellii!


All of those species are easy to breed, just remember panduro prefer pairs and agassizi should be kept with a minimum of 2 females.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

I've always kept agassizii in pairs. I don't think I'll ever go back to trying trios in 24"x12" tanks. Like I've said elsewhere, provide enough structure, line of sight breaks and hidey holes, and aggression becomes a minor issue.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I put another female Atahualpa in my 120g and now I have a female on each end with eggs/fry. Only took the female one day in the tank before she was tending eggs! My male is a ****.


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