# # of Egg Spots



## Liquid_Pyro (Jan 7, 2010)

Hey I was just looking for some more confirmation that the more egg spots a male cichlid has the more eggs a female will produce. I read that Eva Hert has done some research on proving this, in one of the articles from this site. Is there anything else on this topic?

The reason I ask is, when looking to purchase a male should one just pick the one with the most egg spots? Or would you pick the largest fish over the one with the most egg spots or the fish with the best color over the most egg spots.

I have a number of Fryeri Hap fry that I am raising, which are starting to show their spots and color, but I cannot keep them all. I would love to keep the best male from the group and at least 3 females (although thats going to be hard to pick which ones are female as I read they can have egg spots too). How do I choose?


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## benny71 (Sep 30, 2010)

Sorry, I can't answer your question about egg spots, but I pick the fish with the best color if I'm buying a mature fish(I usually buy juvies because they are cheap and I like seeing them grow up).


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## toume (Oct 7, 2010)

Hm...that'd be an interesting correlation if they could prove it--the number of egg spots to numnber of fry...

However, it's always a gamble. Using egg spots as a determinant of sex is an incredibly* bad* idea.

Because you're right, females have egg spots, and they get them as they grow too (so some that don't have them as juvies can then have some show up). And not having any egg spots on a male is possible as well.

I'm like Benny, I go by color, activity, and personality. I'm more likely to buy the bully fish in the tank because I have bullies at home :lol:

Honestly, I would either keep them as long as you can, until you can vent them if possible. Otherwise, you just have to gamble on it.


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

Dominant males do usually have nicer egg spots. I don't understand why people say that egg spots mean nothing, when they obviously mean something with most species, it's just that you can't make an overall blanket statement about them, you just have to use experience. I think the hormones create bigger and more eggspots when the fish is acting dominant.

As for choosing males based on eggspots, if I understand your question, more eggspots doesn't mean a male is necessarily better. Individuals can be different, both in quality of barring as well as eggspots. Just pick which males are the best color and body shape overall.

This brings up the question, could one line breed out eggspots? Or increase eggspots thru selective breeding? Probably possible.


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## Liquid_Pyro (Jan 7, 2010)

Hey thanks everyone so far.

Here is the article I read talking about the egg spots, just in case anyone was curious

[/url]http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/mouthbrooders.php
The problem I am facing is that I...t hopefully someone can provide some guidance


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## toume (Oct 7, 2010)

Noki, all I know is my own experience. And my dom female zebra has large, bright defined egg spots whereas my two lab males (that I vented) have none at all--they're both 2" approx. So... IME, egg spots can give hints as far as sex, but should not be used as a determinant. To go by them is a 50/50 shot. If a fish is too small to vent, I prefer to watch behavior and how it interacts with its fellow species, especially if I have some proven sexes in the mix--along with color and finnage shape.


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## toume (Oct 7, 2010)

Liquid_Pyro said:


> The problem I am facing is that I have around 20 fryeri at the moment, ranging in size from 3.25 inches to 1.5 inches and need to start finding homes for some of the fish


Most of them then could be large enough to vent. I highly suggest this method. It's a bit nerve wracking, but it works. I would also take a pic, since you have to do it pretty quickly and there's no time for staring though it's a bit awkward to maneuver (plus if you have a question, you can post it on the forum).

I really wish there were easier ways to sex, but if the fish is monomorphic...there really isn't one. You can guess, but you can't be sure. And it'd suck if you gave away the ones you wanted...


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

Egg spots have more to do with the hierarchy of dominance in a tank. This is related to gender, but not exactly a readout of gender - usually males are dominant over females, but not always. This is especially true when you have a large colony with multiple juveniles of both sexes.

For example, I bought my group of Cynotialpia sp. Hara as juveniles between 1 and 2 inches. When I purchased them, fish A was bigger than fish B and fish B was bigger than the rest. Fish A had the most eggspots (3) and fish B had fewer (2). After about a month or two, Fish B outgrew fish A and obtained a third eggspot. Around this time Fish A's third eggspot disappeared (it sort of gradually diminished to nothing).

After about another 2 months I witnessed fish B (male) spawn with fish A (female). After venting everyone, I noticed that there were a few subdominant males with fewer eggspots than my alpha female (fish A).

Just to confuse things, it appears that there is also some genetic component to the number of eggspots as well. It apparently isn't all about dominance - at least not in every species. For example I have two male Labeotropheus Trewavasae and my subdominant male has twice as many eggspots as my dominant male. However, they are just reaching maturity so it's possible this may change.

My advice: Vent them to determine gender. Choose the males with the best color rather than more eggspots.

Edit: I just read that article you linked and it's interesting. I'm gonna try and find the original article by Eva Hert and see if I can make sense of it. It might even be time for an experiment of my own.


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## toume (Oct 7, 2010)

Hmm...interesting--I hadn't heard about the dominance argument. 
:thumb: Thanks! I'll have to watch for that--going by your example, I have a similar situation in my tank. :lol:


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## torin32 (May 24, 2010)

The only true way to determine sex is to vent your fish enuf of this hogwash.


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## toume (Oct 7, 2010)

:lol:

We know, we know--we're just looking for an easy way out 

Plus, I don't think the fish store will think kindly of us netting their fish, flipping them over, and staring


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

toume said:


> Plus, I don't think the fish store will think kindly of us netting their fish, flipping them over, and staring


I've done just this. Usually they don't care.


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## toume (Oct 7, 2010)

Seriously? .... :drooling:


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## Liquid_Pyro (Jan 7, 2010)

Thats hilarious "Kanorin", checking out the fish in the pet store. I have never sexed my own fish before, but I have been meaning too with my main breeding group as I know I have too many males. I also searched for the the main article about the more egg spots males have the more eggs females produce, but came up with very little results, thats why I posted in this forum.

So until now I never even thought to look up how many egg spots the father of my Fryeri had. I haven't owned the parents of the fry for almost a year, so I went back through some pictures and found out that my 7" plus male did not have any egg spots and yet he consistently produced 80+ fry with a female that had one egg spot.

Information on the internet about the Fryeri say they produce 60 to 70 fry. So in conclusion, egg spots are not really something I should pay much attention too when picking out the best male from the batch of fry to keep.

Thanks everyone for the great responses so far!


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## HerdnKnox (Jul 24, 2010)

Newbie around....what does vent mean? opcorn:


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Check out the article in the Library (Breeding section) on venting. You flip the fish over and examine the vent area to determine gender. Males will have two openings about the same size like this oo. Females who have laid eggs have one opening larger than the other like this o0. Of course, if she has laid eggs you already know she is a female, LOL.


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