# dwarfs for 17g planted tank



## padlock 08 (Jul 31, 2008)

hey! im just wondering what your advise is on sa dwarf cichlids to put in a 63l planted aquarium with wood and water changes of weekly 10% using ro water. also what are your views on dither fish i.e. tetras


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## lotsofish (Feb 28, 2008)

I think you could keep a pair of apistos and 8-10 neons.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

Apistos are harem breeders, not pairing.

what are the dimensions of the tank? if it is 24" long and set up right i think a trio would be fine in there.


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

I addressed this stocking question on a different post of yours.

BTW, you need to do more than 10 percent weekly water changes, at least 25 percent once a week is a good minimum.


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## mok3t (Nov 28, 2008)

I just got some small German Blue rams and i'd highly recommend them. Feisty little things they are. Happy to see off a Gourami 3 times its size and colorful to boot.


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## Fishguy28 (Feb 5, 2007)

gage said:


> Apistos are harem breeders, not pairing.
> 
> what are the dimensions of the tank? if it is 24" long and set up right i think a trio would be fine in there.


There may not be enough floor space in the tank for a trio and there is no problem with keeping them in pairs. Most may be harem breeders by nature but it is not a concrete rule. There are plenty of beautiful species that do best in pairs. Inka, Panduro, Hongsloi and MacMasteri are a few examples of some fairly common ones that are best when keeping just a pair.


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## Fishguy28 (Feb 5, 2007)

Double post


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## Fishguy28 (Feb 5, 2007)

Fishguy28 said:


> gage said:
> 
> 
> > Apistos are harem breeders, not pairing.
> ...


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

I've kept pairs of Apisto Cacs in 29 gal tanks on several occasions with success... including repeated breeding... including growing to full adulthood...

Most of those 29 gal tanks were started with trios, but ended as pairs as the females would squabble until one needed to be removed or was killed.

I have alaso used a 6' 125 gal tank as an Apisto Cac colony tank and was amazed at the colony breeding arrangements they exhibited... I plan to convert this tank into an Apisto Colony tank again soon.

But after my experinece with Apistos and Rams (the only two Dwarves I have kept) I do not feel a 17 gal tank is large enough for either...

I'm not saying any of these are "rules", but each point is based on experience...


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## bobberly1 (Dec 2, 2006)

Yeah, not all apistos are harem breeders. you could fit an extra female or two either way.


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## Chris2500DK (Feb 15, 2006)

German blue rams, Nannacara anomala or some apistogramas should be possible. I'd start with 1m/2f to give the male a choice in mate. You could add a small school of tetras (10 or so) and a few cory cats as well as some shrimp.


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## padlock 08 (Jul 31, 2008)

ok thanks for the quick replies, how about a trio of german blue rams that will be whittled down to two and 5 hatchetfish and 5 cardinals, its dimensions are 60cm lond 30cm wide and 36cm high, a plan on anubias and java fern, wood and a few slate caves


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## Chris2500DK (Feb 15, 2006)

I'd get 10 cardinals, 5 really isn't enough for a schooling fish. Otherwise it sounds good.


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## padlock 08 (Jul 31, 2008)

ok ill bump up the cardinals to ten but can i still get the hatchets then too?


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## Fishguy28 (Feb 5, 2007)

padlock 08 said:


> ok thanks for the quick replies, how about a trio of german blue rams that will be whittled down to two and 5 hatchetfish and 5 cardinals, its dimensions are 60cm lond 30cm wide and 36cm high, a plan on anubias and java fern, wood and a few slate caves


You will only be able to do a pair of rams they form strong pair bonds and things wouldn't turn out so well for the third fish. There may not be enough surface area for hatchets, have you thought about ember tetras they stay small and you would be able to fit about 6-8 in there.


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## bobberly1 (Dec 2, 2006)

I'd stay at one dither group, hatchets get a tad big to have a well sized group in that tank anyway.


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## padlock 08 (Jul 31, 2008)

ok thanks ill just go for the one dither group, 10 cardinals, and the rams. what i was going to do was get a trio of rams (1m-2f) and let a pair develop, when this has happened i was going to remove the unwanted female and give her back to the lfs, how does that sound?


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## padlock 08 (Jul 31, 2008)

ok thanks ill just go for the one dither group, 10 cardinals, and the rams. what i was going to do was get a trio of rams (1m-2f) and let a pair develop, when this has happened i was going to remove the unwanted female and give her back to the lfs, how does that sound?


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## padlock 08 (Jul 31, 2008)

ok thanks ill just go for the one dither group, 10 cardinals, and the rams. what i was going to do was get a trio of rams (1m-2f) and let a pair develop, when this has happened i was going to remove the unwanted female and give her back to the lfs, how does that sound?


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

I still say a 17 gal isn't big enough for a pair of Rams long term... but I won't beat a dead horse...


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## padlock 08 (Jul 31, 2008)

hey, i resurected this thread as the time has come to add the fish/plants to the tank and im starting to get second thoughts. at the moment i have one medium sized piece of bogwood which i had previously soaked but has leached some tannins to slightly tint the water, and i also have slate pieces which can be made into caves ( one rather large pece is lying up against the filter casing to create a cave, its a juwel filter, and i lot more smaller pieces that can be siliconed to make a cave formation, should i use terracotta pots instead?

1) i will go with a cheap C02 system where compressed co2 is pumped into a small container in the morning and it is then difused into the water over the course of the day.

2) im getting root tabs (fertilisers) too so what plants can i keep with java moss/fern (i have 1 wpg but am getting reflectors which double light output so it will be 2wpg, right?)

3)i want to keepfry and sell on so i can lessen my tank costs so what are the most in demand and prolific breeders that are suitable for this tank water changes with ro water are possible

4) what are the best tank mates, i was going to go with 10 cardinals or rummy-noses and 3 ottocinclus/siamese flying foxes to keep out algae from the glass and leaves

what should i do? thanks in advance for all the advice :fish: opcorn: :thumb:


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## Hubbynz (May 10, 2008)

3) Double red aspitogramma Cacas are quite popular espically if you get good stock and very easy to breed and look after.

4) What are the best tank mates: If you want a breeding setup then most tetras, catfish and cories will eat your eggs/fry.


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

Absolutely don't get siamese flying foxes or siamese algae eaters of any kind. They grow quite large and are not appropriate for a small tank. Otos are great, but they often are somewhat delicate and prefer a more established tank. So I might advise you to wait and add them a bit down the line.

Some good plants for you: anubias, crypts (I like the wendentii), and wisteria. You could also do the "moss balls," which are kind of a hoot, in addition to java fern.


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## padlock 08 (Jul 31, 2008)

thanks for the speedy replies,this tank has been set up since early december holding stray fish so id say its pretty well cycled but nevrtheless ilq wait for a few q weeks and make sure its perfectly cycled . should iget a harem?


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

Is your question about cycling and harems about the otos? No, otos don't need a "harem" per se (I have no idea how one goes about sexing otos, if it can even be done). But you do need to get them in a group to feel more secure. Given that you're likely to lose some, I'd probably start out with 5, although that might be pushing it in 17 . . .

Obviously, otos need to be in a cycled tank. But even in a cycled tank, in the early months, there can be quite a bit of fluctation of chemistry until things get a bit more stablized. I personally didn't add otos until my planted tank was up and running for about three months or so. They also really do prefer live plants, so planting the tank first before adding the otos would be preferred. (I really love my otos . . . ) BTW, they love slices of zuccini or cucumber hung from a veggie clip on the side of the tank. It's a good way to make sure they're getting enough to eat.


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## padlock 08 (Jul 31, 2008)

thanks i didn't know all that. should i get a harem of the apistos to get the most fry ? what would be a good ratio?


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

I have always bought apistos as pairs 1M-1F, because that is how they were sold in the store. I believe that harems are best, though 1M-2F . . . Of course, my male just died and his female is now and forever widowed, so I'm not what I'd call a very good apisto-keeper . . .


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## padlock 08 (Jul 31, 2008)

hopefully il have better luck, so if i can get 1m 2f will that be best? also should i get flower pots to use as caves? if so how many? the otto's wont eat my fry will they?


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

I'd recommend you post something specific about Apistos and what they need to be happy, and get good recommendations from those who have been more successful than me! 

As for the otos, no they won't eat the fry . . .


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## padlock 08 (Jul 31, 2008)

ok, something specific.... so what gh and ph are optimal for apistos to breed, show the best colors and behave most naturally, what tank environment should they have i.e. caves plants, i like the crypts. java fern and moss, moss balls (maybe one big one or 2 small ones) and the anubias. it can be planted in the substrate too, right?Is Co2 really necessary for these plants, also would amazon swords be an option? :-? :? :-?


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## padlock 08 (Jul 31, 2008)

ok so i brought my 15 unwanted fish from my african tank to the lfs today to trade them in for 10 cardinals and a trio of apistos but whan i got there i saw that they only had what looked like 2 very badly bred agasizzi so i didn't want them. i then went to the cardinal tank and aked for 10 cardinals but they gave me an eleventh free in case 1 died, it was then that the german blues caught my eye ! i saw three very beautiful fish in the tank 1 male with long flowing fins, a small female (the only one with an obviously pink belly) and another medium sized one who's sex we're not sure of. i also got 2 clay flower pots and a piece of bogwood. i wanted to stain the water so i just ran the bogwood under the tap to remove any dust and put it in the tank i also rinsed the pots so as to remove the labels and any dust. all are now in the tank, the cards are just staying as a shoal in the main swimming area while the rams slowly wandered the tank. the unsexed fish is now stationary behind a flower pot after the male swam and mouthed at it a few times and the other two are in the open, the male occasionally swims at the female and once she went into a cave with him. could this be the start of a pair bond already and is the unsexed fish a rejected male that should be removed. also for water changes i have ro water but would collecting rainwater in a large tub and filtering it with a spare fluval 4plus with a bag of activated carbon overnight be beneficial or dangerous, as rainwater is naturally soft and acidic, just right for cardinals and gbr's. however rain could contain polutants so im hoping the carbon will remove them. does anyone have any experience with this and can they advise me please as soon as possible, thanks in advance :fish:


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