# Community tank long term



## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Hello all,

Fmuellers tank has inspired me. I want to shoot for a tank with 4 species that I can enjoy for the next two years and let nature takes its course. If fry survive great, if not, I don't mind that either. I really don't mind if one species takes over either, I just want to let it evolve as Fmueller's tank has. Obviously it would be stupid to invest much money into this type of setup, so I will stick to the more common main stream species.

I already have the caudopunks and a group of multis, neither is breeding yet. What other fish would you consider a good addition?

I was thinking julies would be good and they would predate on some of the julie and caudo fry. Any other suggestions?


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## shellies215 (Jan 7, 2011)

What size tank?


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Wow sorry,

125g, 72x18.

I did want the xenotilapia flavipinnis, but I don't want to have to spend so much that I am worried about leaving the tank for a week.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Small julidichromis, or
altolamprologus (I know, you don't like them, but give them a chance  ), or
one of the smaller telmatochromis like vittatus,

and

small cyprichromis, or 
paracyprichromis.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I have never heard much about the smaller telmatochromis, are they similar to julies?

Altos are not my cup of tea, but I do need to try them. Do any fry stand a chance of reaching maturity with altos? I want to see the tank evolve over time, so if 100% of the fry are being eaten nothing new will happen.

Prov, I thought about sticking a pair of brevis in a corner.


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## Lestango (Nov 11, 2010)

I picked up some small T. vittatus at a swap a couple of months ago. Some were so small the seller didn't realize they were in the bag until I bought them. I introduced them into a tank direectly into some heavy java moss and they thrived on the goodies that lived in there until big enough to compete with other Tangs (J. transcriptus and N. helianthus) in the tank. They are really cool fish. Right now they are an inch to 1 1/4" and seem to be very self reliant but not obsessively possesive. But time will tell. I could easily see myself setting up a species tank with them.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I'm going to stick with the julies since the vittatus and bifs (if they are different fish?) are known to use shells in the aquarium. They may compete with the caudopunks.

Anybody see problems with:
Pair of caudos
Group of julis until I get a pair
Large colony of multis
Group of non jumbo cyps


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Looks 8) to me. Quite classy. In that size tank your Julies may form more than one pair. I had three pairs of Julidochromis "Gombie" each with its own rockpile going in a 60" tank once.

All the best James


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Do any fry stand a chance of reaching maturity with altos?


Yes, 22 juli's and counting after starting with 8. And that's in a tank with 8 calvus.



> Prov, I thought about sticking a pair of brevis in a corner.


You'd then have 3 species competing for shells. With what you're going for, I don't see a problem as long as you have lots of shells. Same with the vittatus. Of course they'll compete. Why is that bad if you have plenty of shells? No one parcels these out in the lake. If you want an evolving tank, then you need to have species that will do that for you.

My point is, if you have one rock dweller, one open water, one shellie, etc, what's going to evolve? All that may change are the numbers of each. In Frank's tank, the numbers changed as the fish took over new territories inhabited previously by other species. Specifically the juli's and leleupi. The many leleupi behaving themselves in that tank is the most impressive thing to watch, btw. I've seen the tank, and it's very unique.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Not sure on the cyps, unless I can find them local for cheap I am going to skip them. I'm not willing to pay the prices they are listed at, even hobbyist usually want a lot for them.

I have a question on making territories. Is it important to have different rock piles or is rocks lined up on the back glass in a continuous line fine?


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## Lestango (Nov 11, 2010)

I didn't answer all your ? on T. vittatus so for the record here they are. Vittatus is not the T. species confused with bifrenatus. IME other than they have a tubular shape I don't think they look like Julies. They have a much narrower body measured top to bottom - Kuhli Loach like, but not that extreme. Ideal for snaking through cracks and crevices among rocks.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think regular vittatus use shells in the aquarium only if all opportunities to use the rocks are taken by other fish. The smaller "shell" varient of coarse are closely related shell dwellers so I would never say "never".

But why not include them in an evolving biotope tank?

Regarding Julies, the are like bunnies - how manytime can they breed in a year? :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish:


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I have a question on making territories. Is it important to have different rock piles or is rocks lined up on the back glass in a continuous line fine?


If you want an evolving biotope, go for rocks and shells. Meaning long row of rocks, maybe a rock here or there dividing up some shell beds and scattered shells. Then get 2-3 rock dwellers, depending on species and a couple of shell dwellers. For what you're going for you want to blur the lines between territories a bit. Forget about cyps and paracyps. You want rock dwellers, shell dwellers, or anything in between.

Just be aware of potential hybridization between some species.



> Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think regular vittatus use shells in the aquarium only if all opportunities to use the rocks are taken by other fish. The smaller "shell" varient of coarse are closely related shell dwellers so I would never say "never".


This is what I've read, which makes one or the other a good candidate for this type of setup.

One I forgot about, if you come across it, is 'lamprologus' calliurus, sometimes called the 'lyretail brevis'. Not really a brevis, but looks similar, only larger with different markings and a lyretail instead of rounded. Females inhabit shells near the rocks inhabited by the males.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I like how this thread has evolved and you guys are throwing great ideas at me.

So basically make a bunch of mini territories with a mix of shells and rocks. I am cutting down some PVC pieces and putting end caps on them to hide in the rock piles, so that should add spawning areas.

for fish are you thinking something like this:
multi's
caudopunks
T. Vittatus 
J. transcriptus (any fry will not be sold since the julie x vittatus cross is likely.)

For a shell dweller would something like L. Hequi work?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> For a shell dweller would something like L. Hequi work?


Tough little fish. I'd probably go with something from 'lamprologus' instead.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I have access to some harder to find stuff via a club near me. A store about two hours away has T. Brichardi on the list. Are they similar to Vittatus?


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## Lestango (Nov 11, 2010)

T. brichardi are quite similar to T. vittatus, maybe a little smaller, but similar in behavior to my knowledge. And I am not convinced cross breeding will easily occur between Julies and the skinny Telmatochromis. I have Chalinochromis, and there I am worried about crossing. I don'r have mine together.

The behavior in my tanks between vittatus and transcriptus is rather discimilar. My julies really embrace the rocks and are reclusive. My vittatus are more like N. brichardi and C. ndobhoi ranging over the rocks. IME!


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Julies will hybridize with Telmats. I read an article on CRC and the author had hybrids. Specifically it was T. Vittatus and J. Dickfeldi.

I'm going to hunt down the Vittatus and just add them and the J. transcriptus. That will leave me with one shell dweller (multi's), one rock dweller (julis) and two fish that can take advantage of both (Vittatus and Caudopunks)

I feel like if I crowd too much then the offspring won't have anywhere to establish themselves, do you agree?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I feel like if I crowd too much then the offspring won't have anywhere to establish themselves, do you agree?


Depends on number of adults. You might want to limit to one breeder pair/group per species and let them attempt to colonize, but I'd never bet on the caudopunks. I think it unlikely any fry will survive. Even in a species tank, it's difficult as the parents seem to cannibalize. Sorry to toss this in now, but they may not be a great choice for what you're trying to do.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Well, I already have a pair of caudopunks so no harm in letting it work itself out. One advantage the caudopunks will have is that they are already adults, the rest of the fish will be juvies. Maybe that will give them an advantage.

I would put my money on the julies taking over, I'm not sure they can overthrow a huge colony of multi's though.

If the caudos don't make it, could you think of a replacement?


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

What about buescheri?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Maybe that will give them an advantage.


My point is, the best they'll do is hold their own, and they'll probably do that just fine, but they'll never colonize. At least not in my experience.

Seems you need potential colonizers. The only other one I can think of besides julies and multis is t. temporalis sp shell. They'll move into the rocks also. The other would be brichardi types. Contrary to their reputation, mine (n. pulcher) have not annihilated everything in their path. There's a t. temporalis or two living in their rock pile, and a group of temporalis on the other side of the tank. Young pulcher's have started to wander over to their side. It's been a two spieces evolving tank for me.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I see what your saying Tim. I have a feel of what kind of fish I need now.

Everything I have read about temporalis shell makes me think they would have no problem taking over an area of the tank and expanding until they dominated. One option would be waiting until the other fish had some solid numbers and then introducing a group of temp. shell. I would love to incorporate them if it would work.

I have never kept a brichardi type. The only problem I see is that they are so much bigger than the julies and multis that will also be in the tank. Again, don't you think it would be easy for them to drive back all of the other fish and claim the entire tank?

About the caudopunks, if they can only hold a territory thats fine by me. If they can't expand, I don't see how vittatus could either. Right now, if I don't find another colony fish then IMO in two years I will just have a tank full of julies and multis.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

My juli's don't expand beyond a certain point either. As a fry matures an adult is rejected. I've reached a balance.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Keep in mind too that this 'evolving' tank is going to naturally involve rejects and/or casualties. I'm not sure I'd undertake something like this myself. Interesting, sure, but it'll be hard on the fish. They're not going to politely yield territory to each other.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I will have rejects and deaths every so often, but I hope all is calm until the fry start maturing. If its too bad I will move fish out.

I picked up some more rock today and cut down a lot of PVC to hide in and around the rock piles. Also ordered more shells. I'm going for lots of shell beds and rock piles so everybody has suitable territory to expand into. I'm interested to see if the multi's would eventually take over a second shell pile.

Still can't decide on the 4th species. Altos grow too slow, Buescheri won't tolerate conspecifics, and the temp. shell and brichardi would out compete all the other species. Running out of ideas :-? :-? :-? :-?


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I did keep calliurus with multies in a big tank 8 (foot) without problems but the 'Lamprologus' calliurus (Moliro) never bred in there. If you got the calliurus going first then I guess that might be a 4th species. Not a collony former though think four collony formers might be pushing it even for this tank.

All the best James


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I'm going to see how multis, caudos, and julis work out unless T. Vittatus shows up local for cheap. I can always add something down the road.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Sorry for coming in late, but I only just found this thread. Not sure what to say about the admiration my 240G is receiving - just blushing   

I am also not quite sure it is as unique as people make it out to be. I recently had the chance to look at prov356's tanks, and found his 180G strikingly similar, with the biggest difference being that the focal point fish in his tank are tropheus, while mine are frontosa. I had previously tried tropheus in that kind of setup in a 125G, and that attempt crashed and burned. I am guessing the extra size is required, but he did an amazing job at setting up that tank. One of the finest I have seen in real life!

When I started reading this thread, a gazillion good ideas came to my mind, but by now all of those things have been suggested. :lol:

I'll just ad a few points. I have kept a huge colony of N. brichardi in a 125G with a big colony of multies. That setup worked amazingly well with the multies staying around their shells and the brichardi staying in their half of the tank, which in my case contained a huge piece of driftwood, but rocks would have been better. I tried to ad paracyps in the hope that they'd settle in over the multies, but had to pull them out within hours because the brichardi were beating the $#% out of them.

I think with basic decent aquascaping a 6' tank is plenty big enough for colonies of brichardi and multies, and that in itself will give you an amazing opportunity to observe the behavior of colony forming fish. On the downside, there is little doubt that those two colonies, and especially the brichardi will dominate the tank. Not much else will work with them, but you could try a type of julie and see how they compete with the brichardi about the rocks. Julies are tough and sneaky, and can get into crevices adult brichardi can never enter, but then the adult brichardi have foot troops in form of brichardi juvies. Who knows?!

Regarding other good tank mates for the brichardi and multies, I had one lone male goby in the tank that was never bothered. BN plecos also did well. If you want a Tanganyican catfish, S. petricola might be an option.

Cyps and other mouthbrooders have a hard time sustaining their population in a tank like this. Too successfully breed them, you need to intervene and take out females to strip them. If I ever loose the cyps in my 240G, I don't think I will be able to replace them. Last time I added small ones they disappeared quickly, as do any fry. It is only the old adults that do well in the tank.

Regarding the evolving tank idea, there is no need to wait until a species has been eradicated. If I see that fish are not doing well, as for example my brevis where at some point, that is probably a good time to move them to another setup. I also find it necessary to thin down very successful populations from time to time. For a while I did that with my leleupi, but their numbers seem fairly stable now, or at least I sell only very few. The julies on the other hand need frequent thinning of the herd now, otherwise they might conquer territory previously held by fronts :wink:


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Sorry for the double post, but I thought I'd just share some more info about julidochromis behavior. The latest issue of DCG Informationen (Feb 2011) contains a fascinating article by Dr Wolfgang Staeck on the subject. He draws on his own observations as well as those of others, both in the wild and in captivity. Dr Staeck explains that julidochromis will form breeding groups in which up to twelve fish share the brood care. The size of the group seems to vary a bit with species. The brood helpers themselves vary in size and age, and they spend considerably more time (94-98%) in the breeding cave than the parent fish (40-48%). It was even observed that the parent fish chase the brood helpers back into the breeding cave when they try to venture away from it. I don't believe the article is available in English, but if you can read German, I can not recommend it highly enough.

Just one more interesting piece of information, Dr Staeck writes that he has kept three species of Julidochromis for 10 years in his 450L (about 120G) tank without any sign of cross breeding. These three species are J. ornatus, J. sp. 'Kipili', and J. sp. 'Marlieri Sambia'. The julies establish territories of different breeding groups of the same species as far as possible apart, basically on opposite ends of the tank. On the other hand territories of breeding groups of different species are observed in very close proximity to each other, sometimes separated by as little as 2". Despite the distinctly different look of fry of different species, up to a size of about 0.6" in length fry of all species are allowed as guests in the territories of other species, and they are even allowed to act as brood helpers.

I found all of this fascinating. While julidochromis don't form the huge colonies we know from brichardi type lamprologine and L. multifasciatus, they seem to have developed a distinct collaborative approach for their brood care that can be observed in suitably set up tanks.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

*fmueller*
I did not know you posted until you said so in my other thread  .

You guys make it hard to decide on anything when you are feeding me so many great ideas. I am in no hurry, I still have a month or two before the multis will start to breed. 
I would love to introduce a pair of Brichardi. But if I did, I have to give up the caudopunks. Then again, I feel like I may be wanting the caudopunks to behave like Brichardi are already known to.

I would like to see how the caudopunks will behave once they get their numbers established. They could act exactly the same as a pair, but would be interesting to find out.
I do want to see how the julies will compete. My rock is setup sort of like your background fmueller. I chose rocks that have flat sides and stacked them against the back glass. The rock wall formed many small crevices and there is space behind the wall as well.

So its a toss up, between Brichardi, julies and multis OR Caudopunks, Julies, and multis.

If you guys have anymore opinions on the subject feel free to enlighten me. If not, I have been accused of "beating a dead horse" before lol.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

For the sake of discussion, which Brichardi complex member would be best suited if I decided to go down the brichardi road?


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

I have kept N. pulcher and N. brichardi. They both live in large colonies in which every member of the colony supports the breeding pair in their efforts to defend the group against outsiders. I have found their behavior basically indistinguishable. In both cases I observed the dominant male spawning only with the dominant female, but I have recently heard - I believe from prov356 - that sometimes the dominant male can spawn with several females. As far as I know, N. helianthus behaves the same as N. pulcher and N. brichardi, but my three N. helianthus are either all male or all female. At any rate, they have never spawned for me, and I've had them for years.

If you go with brichardi, I would expect them to dominate the tank. It will be interesting to see if the julies can carve out a niche, but I expect it will largely depend on clever aquascaping to give the julies sufficient space in an area with small rock crevices, and break the line of site between the juli area and the main cave around which the brichardi will set up shop. The brichardi prefer a comparatively large cave, because a dominant male brichardi can be quite an imposing fish that needs a bit of space.

If you go with the caudopunctatus, I'd expect the julies to rule the tank, but it will be less obvious. They'll both compete for smaller caves and crevices, and I have a hunch that the julies will get all the good spots and the caudos will have to make do with what's left. That said, I have far less experience with caudos than with the other discussed species.









_Neolamprologus brichardi 'Princess of Burundi'_


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Interesting stuff,

Brichardi has always been on my want list. The colonial behavior seems so interesting to watch. I have never wanted to do a species tank with them because what fun is it if they have nothing to protect their fry from. Fmueller, do you think the multis would be ok with Brichardi? How did your multis and brichardi behave? Did they just ignore each other or was there skirmishes between the species? I think the julies would have an advantage in the large rockpile in my tank, its nothing, but tiny crevices and caves.

On the other hand, if I stick with my caudopunks I wonder if I will be able to witness skirmishes and fusses between the caudopunks and julies? IMO the caudopunks do not hang out in cover like julies, so I think the caudopunk fry would not survive and as prov356 predicted I will have my pair of caudopunks holding their own, but never expanding their numbers.


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## Lestango (Nov 11, 2010)

Frank - you probably heard it from me. I have 1 male and 2 female helianthus in a tank with a spawn only 3 weeks apart from each of the females. Both females are staying closer to their fry and the male is overviewing his colony. Right now the older are around 3/8" OL maximum and the younger half that size, just moving on to be able to eat crushed flake food.

The fry of each spawn are intermixing and feed along side each other. The females are not antagonistic toward each other but seem to have their own cave that they favor in my rock assemblies. It is quite interesting that when individuals of the older spawning start to venture a bit to far from the group the male and females chase them back "home". Yes, all three adults work together in this manner.

I have two other juvie lamprologine species (Julidochromis trabscriptus "Bemba Kissi" and Telmatochromis vittatus) in the tank in small number along with some target livebearers and I will probably have to move the non-conspecific cichlids very soon. Though the helianthus aren't acting like they want to purge the tank of them, they aren't able to feed as freely as I like and I will grow them out in another tank. Quite soon however, I suspect the helianthus will prettymuch need to occupy the whole tank as the fry continue to grow, and the adults will be spawning again.

This is about as fascinating a spawning as I have witnessed in my many years of keeping cichlids. :thumb:


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Lestango - interesting observations regarding the helianthus. Based on our limited amount of data there is of course no way of telling for sure, but maybe the one male, several females thing is specific to helianthus as opposed to brichardi and pulcher? These fish have been in the hobby for so long, yet so little has been documented about their behavior!

Ahud - my multies and brichardi had one battle that ended the war, and that was when the brichardi moved in. Previously, when the multies had tropheus as tank mates, they left their shells on one end of the tank unattended and moved into a big cave under my giant piece of driftwood. That had always annoyed me, because my plan was for the tropheus to live in around that piece of wood and it's many holes and crevices to provide cover for their fry. Unfortunately the multies did not care for my plans, and I ended up with an abandoned shell bed on one end of the tank, and a happy multie colony on the other side.

I bought the brichardi as an adult breeding air with 4 fry of various sizes at an auction. Obviously somebody was selling the remainder of a colony. In my 125G, the brichardi set to work immediately, and it took them under 5min to work out they wanted the cave the multies were in. In the next 10min the multies were evicted and chased into the shells they had not used in over a year! I never saw a single one of them venturing over to the brichardi cave again, and they brichardi never went over to the shell bed of the multies.

Later when the brichardi colony grew, sometimes brichardi juvies would wander over to hang out in multi territory, but they never got close enough to the shells for the multies to be worried.

In summary, once territories were established, the mix of multies and brichardi in a 125G worked extremely well for me. I would not try it in a 4' tank though, because I don't think there would be enough space between the colonies for either one not to feel excessively threatened by the other. Brichardi will display the full blown colony and protective behavior without the presence of a real threat. If there is a threat, in my experience brichardi are not fish that do skirmishes, they will seek a decisive battle. In a tank environment, that often means the brichardi will have the tank to themselves.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I read these posts with interest. Kind of agree pulcher and brichardi are not great community fish in most tanks. I kind of have not explored the other species of this complex or close species. It could well be that one or more of em is not as bad as brichardi and pulcher for taking over tanks and killing other stuff. One of these is Neolamprologus helianthus but rather sadly most of the stuff sold in the UK as helianthus just turns out to be another regional variant of brichardi. 

Kind of can we have the three you have settled on again? Kind of getting a bit confused.  

Kind of think your 4 th species should not be a Neolamp but good old Julidochromis transcriptus.
Go for a unusual wild type maybe Julidochromis transcriptus (Pemba) or one of the other darker types. Even if it takes over, then at least you have fish that will sell well. :wink:

All the best James


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> but I have recently heard - I believe from prov356 - that sometimes the dominant male can spawn with several females


Yes, one male, three female pulcher breeding group. The male has spawned with at least two females now. My pucher and temporalis 'shell' keep to their space also in a six footer with an occasional wandering by a juvie pulcher to the temporalis territory. The temporalis are feeling the squeeze and have stopped spawning. They were breeding prolifically when they ruled the tank. That's one of the problems with an 'evolving' tank, it may evolve in a direction you don't want it to go.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

I'm not aiming for 4 species any longer. I'm sticking with three species.

Brichardi are so alluring, and their behavior makes me want to mix them with something else that much more. I might have to go back on my word and setup a small species tank for them. I guess its not really practical to think they will work in a 6foot tank with three other species 
Sticking with julies, multis, and caudopunks seems like the safe route. If the caudopunks get dominated and I remove them do you think julies and multi's could still make for an interesting tank?

I enjoyed this thread a great deal, this type of "fish talk" always gets me excited about the hobby. If I had a friend close by for these type of discussions I think I would have a tank on every wall lol.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Just to update everybody.

I'm going to setup a 65 gallon for Brichardi, so no more worrying about how I can fit them into the community tank!

For the community tank, I am going to let the caudopunks and multis populate it and in the future either add Brevis or Julies, not sure which yet. A few of the multis are actually defending caves they have made by digging up under the rock. I think it will be interesting to see if I ever have mini colonies of multis situated around caves. I'm enjoying the caudopunks because they are always out and about, displaying to each other and the multis. I think the caudopunks and multis are a nice match for what I want out of the tank since they are both able to use rocks and shells.

I'm leaning towards Brevis as a third species since everybody thinks julies will dominate the caudopunks that I am growing very fond of. The Brevis seems like they will fill my need for a third species without being in the picture too much. I have an area in the corner of the tank with scattered shells that two unpaired brevis (they were free) are currently living, most likely I will remove these two and start fresh with fry if I decide to go with Brevis.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Juli's won't dominate caudo's except in the sense of picking off fry. My caudo's hold their own just fine against julies, they don't look for trouble, but aren't wimps either. They'll go nose-to-nose with adult tropheus. They defend a small area, but defend it well. But, I would hold off on the julies or you'll never see any multi fry or caudo fry staking out new territories in the rocks. I'd add the julies while some open rock territory still existed or they may just get beat on with no space to retreat to. Not trying to discourage, just emphasize that timing is everything. Eager to hear how it goes.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

That was kind of my thinking, I'm sure no caudopunk fry would last long with the julies. At the same time, that may be the reason I add julies down the road. The caudos still have not bred, I hope the pair gets down to business soon.

For now its watch, feed, and water changes. opcorn:


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## Frazee86 (Aug 1, 2010)

ahud said:


> For now its watch, feed, and water changes. opcorn:


isnt that what it normally is anyways? haha opcorn: :fish:


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

Nope, later comes territory rearranging, pulling bad fish, ect.


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## ahud (Aug 22, 2009)

still no caudo fry............ :zz:


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