# I feel pretty upset and lacking..



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

I know I am going to get a barrage of questions and a slap on the hand or two. But I feel more for the fish than to be too proud. And yes I have asked for help on this but didn't follow everything because I got injured the first time I spent 4 hours trying to take out fish from the 240 gallon tank. Ok that is all of the whining. I am going to tell it like it is and take the heat.

I just read the library article here on ICH after the fact!

I have two main problems. The 75 gallon tank has Pearl Ocellatus and Rainbow Red Lazer fish. I am extremely busy with personal matters..but I noticed today that the Rainbows were dying (2 out of 10) and looking at them closely I noticed no top fin or mostly looked raggedy and some had ICK. I was shocked. I quickly got out some metro and dosed with Metro before I left thinking that was what they needed. When I came home I noticed this is not the medication for ICK and I should have turned up the heat and used salt..haven't read the rest yet because I am not sure I should do this after giving them the wrong med.

Problem two is 240 gallon tank. I have written for advice previously about this. I have two sets of males of the same species that are aggressive with each other. I had them in the 75 gallon tank and then I got a 240 gallon tank hoping it would help them. I hear it is easier to care for etc. in 240 gallon. Well these two pair one Williamsi Blue Lips pair and one Snow white Socolofi pair, still were aggressive and perhaps more so. I removed one of each pair and put them in the sump for the time being until I can locate another home. Meanwhile the non-dominant Williamsi Blue Lips still in the large tank stopped eating. I got advice to take him out and treat him. However, with what happened that I explained in the first paragraph, I just threw up my hands and said..if he dies he dies. I was hoping that over time it might have been stress and he would calm down and get better. Yes I know that I was advised this was a serious situation for him to not eat even though hje looks ok. Now is he still living and acting ok except he is paler and leaving the area at feeding time. After a few days of this I could not stand it any longer so I picked up the only real medication I could find at Petsmart which was Erythromycin so out of desperation I got it (pretty expensive when you consider a 240 gallon tank). I also notice that the fish in the 240 gallon tank are all scratching their sides with sand. Lots of flashing in the water.

Now I don't know what to do and should I continue giving the treatments of the meds as I have?
I really need help and wish it would all go away and my fish would enjoy the tanks. But sometimes I feel like their worst enemy.
Where do I go from here?


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

By the way when I came home...the rainbows no longer have the white spots so maybe it worked ok?


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

No two of them were hiding. The two Rainbows look to be on their last leg. Dark looking too.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Don't beat yourself up...just go from here and do the best you can.

Keep the heat and salt in the ich tank...the rainbows may be a lost cause but hopefully you can prevent the occies from getting ich. Treat 3 weeks after you see the last spot on any fish.

Stop the erythromycin and provide test results for the water in the 240G. Although it has never happened to me, erythromycin can harm your beneficial bacteria.

Once your water is good, with ammonia and nitrite = zero and nitrate = 10ppm then you can decide on treating the williamsi.

I find the smaller tanks (75G) easier to care for than the larger tank (mine is 125G) BTW. I have never had trouble with the small tanks (10G etc.) like you hear, but it does seem logical.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

I was hoping you would answer. So stop both the metro and the Erythromycin? Can the fish tolerate the high heat?
btw the Nitrates yesterday were 40 in the 240 tank (much better than off the charts). I am going to test both tanks now


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I thought you were doing the metro in the 75G and erythromycin in the 240G.

Stop the erythromycin. Metro would be expensive in a 240G. I would definitely change 50% of the water in the 240G at this time.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

240 gallon tank:
Ph- 7.6
Ammonia- 0
Nitrite- 0
Nitrate- 160

75 gallon tank:
Ph- 8
Ammonia- 0.25
Nitrite- 0
Nitrate- 80
I did a 50% water change yesterday on the 75 gallon because the Rainbows stopped schooling.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> I thought you were doing the metro in the 75G and erythromycin in the 240G.
> 
> Stop the erythromycin. Metro would be expensive in a 240G. I would definitely change 50% of the water in the 240G at this time.


Yes you are right..I did Metro in the 75 gallon and Erythromycin in the 240...this was opposite of what I should have done yes?

Today I was only able to find the ER but I still thought I was doing right.

I hope my thermometers can get the water temp up to the 90 mark in the 75 gallon tank. Should I go shead with that treatment on the 75 gallon?

Let me know what you think about the 240 gallon...50% water change?


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Change 50% in both the tanks. Do another 50% every morning and night until the result in each tank is 10ppm.

When you change 50% you remove half the nitrate. So you would expect 80 nitrate tonight, 40 nitrate in the morning, 20 nitrate tomorrow night and 10 nitrate Friday morning.

Then see how the fish are doing. Clean water can only help.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

I want to add that I bought a cichlid tolerant catfish at a local pet store..the Fish room...maybe the catfish introduced it..probably so. And the catfish died right away never to be seen once in the tank...and no I did not put the water in the bag into the tank lol.
The catfish was put into the 75 gallon tank where the ich now is.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> Change 50% in the both tanks. Do another 50% every morning and night until the result in each tank is 10ppm.
> 
> When you change 50% you remove half the nitrate. So you would expect 80 nitrate tonight, 40 nitrate in the morning, 20 nitrate tomorrow night and 10 nitrate Friday morning.
> 
> Then see how the fish are doing. Clean water can only help.


Should I stop both medications and should I raise the temp and put in the salt in the 75 gallon tonight?


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yes after your water change. Raise the temp and add the salt gradually...some tonight and the rest over the day tomorrow.


----------



## Mudkicker1 (Aug 6, 2013)

DJRansome said:


> I find the smaller tanks (75G) easier to care for than the larger tank (mine is 125G) BTW. I have never had trouble with the small tanks (10G etc.) like you hear, but it does seem logical.


DJ, can you expand on this statement please? In what way do you find 75 easier to care for?

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Quicker water changes. Easier to reach into and lift rocks out off. Less to clean. And always handy to be able to separate fish in separate tanks rather than having just one big one.

I've never experienced the instability of a smaller tank...less water and quicker fluctuations in water chemistry. I was expecting it but have never experienced it.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

I just removed the water from the 75 gallon. I lost another Rainbow..the darkened one and notice that a lot of the rainbows have been pooping thread of white poop..That means metro needed right?


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Rainbows are not cichlids. IDK how to treat them or if they get bloat. I thought they had spots? Sounds like at least the 2 are too far gone. Not sure how rainbows would do with occies in any case.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

One of the oldest and largest breeders of Cichlids say the rainbow red lazers go perfect with shell dweller cichlids because they are gentle and stay at the top of the tank in schools while the shellies are at the bottom. I find this to be true. If you look them up you can see their water parameters. They are a fairly newly discovered fish,,,not from Africa but live well with them.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

https://www.reef2rainforest.com/2015/07 ... described/
This is the general class of Rainbows but the red lazer is very new..the top of the male's head gets a bright red when he is the dominant one..interesting fish and go well with the cichlids.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

The rainbows had regular poop before today.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Do they have ich spots?

Maybe the breeder can advise you on diagnosing and treating their illness?


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

Yes they do have white spots and no fins... and the breeder said to treat the whole tank...did not say with what but I assume he means treat for ICH


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The symptoms are ich so I would treat for ich

Did he say why the fins are missing?


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> Do they have ich spots?
> 
> Maybe the breeder can advise you on diagnosing and treating their illness?


Yes they have white spots like ICH all over and no fins. The breeder said to treat the whole tank.
I am getting ready to run the parameters again this morning.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

Water parameters this morning for Nitrates

240 gallon tank: 80
75 Gallon tank : 20

Interesting


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Keep doing water changes. Did the rainbow expert say why they have no fins? Usually we see the spots on the fins, so IDK if that means anything.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

No I think they rotted..fin rot? they did have find..I am talking about the top fin..the others are still there. And now 4 ocellatus have died since I added the salt.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

naturlvr said:


> No I think they rotted..fin rot? they did have the back fin..I am talking about the top fin..the others are still there. And now 4 ocellatus have died since I added the salt.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

Maybe I should have given them ER? (erythromycin). Now two more Rainbow are breaking away from their group..bad sign.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would check with the rainbow expert.

I have never heard of shellies dying due to ich treatment so I would not connect those 2 facts.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> I would check with the rainbow expert.
> 
> I have never heard of shellies dying due to ich treatment so I would not connect those 2 facts.


I cannot figure out why the shellies are dying..so far the rainbows are holding on with the ich treatment. They look a little better.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Glad the rainbows are better. How is the Williamsi?


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

Cannot believe that my Williamsi is still swimming around. Not eating now for at least two weeks. I feel so helpless.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You are not helpless, just overwhelmed with everything that needs to be done and doing as much as you can.

Do you have the nitrates in the 240G down to 10ppm as yet?

When you feel ready you will likely want to remove the Williamsi.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

What do I do with him? Do I put him in the 10 gallon tank with meds? the Nitrate levels are

240 gallon: Nitrates 10

75 gallon between 10 and 20

75 gallon tank >>> Good news finally..the rainbows are growing their top fin back and no white spots seen!! None have died overnight. the pearl ocellatus are just hanging on..not near the shells.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Put him in the 10G tank and observe feces.

It is possible he will eat when alone.

Do not medicate until you have a diagnosis.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> Put him in the 10G tank and observe feces.
> 
> It is possible he will eat when alone.
> 
> Do not medicate until you have a diagnosis.


When I do another water change tonight which should be the last one needed for the moment, it will be easier to get him with the water level down. Hopefully no more body injuries lol.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

Good news...the Rainbow Red Lazers are back to pooping brown. They are not back to their schooling behavior yet.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

I managed to get the sick Williamsi out of the 240 g tank. Now what do I do? He is in a 10 gallon tank.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

See if he is passing feces and whether they are clear/white and thready or thick and food colored.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> See if he is passing feces and whether they are clear/white and thready or thick and food colored.


Not sure how he could pass any feces when he has not eaten in 3 weeks approx.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Try feeding him. Wait 24 hours to confirm.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> Try feeding him. Wait 24 hours to confirm.


He is lying on his side not eating a thing just as usual..I can definitely confirm that he will die tonight if drastic measure are not taken.. :-?


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

I have Erythromycin and Metro...I have to do something!


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

I also have Clout


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

naturlvr said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> > Try feeding him. Wait 24 hours to confirm.
> ...


 However the lying on his side is new since he got into the 10 gallon tank. He just went back to being upright. He is giving me a scare. I makes me sad because this was my favorite fish. He always came to me and stayed with me as long as I was at the tank. He was the friendliest.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

Nitrates are 10 in both tanks.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You could try metronidazole. No feces yet right?


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> You could try metronidazole. No feces yet right?


Right..no eating, no feces. He turned darker when I put him in the 10 gallon...probably stress. What do you think of using clout? I put Metro in the tank for now.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

IME Metronidazole is more effective than clout.

You could double the dose of metronidazole.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

ok i will


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

He is still alive today. In the 75 gallon tank the rainbows are still hanging in there and looking better but the pearl occelatus are all dead.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

What do you think of Kanaplex? Amazon rates it better than Metro plex..it soaks into the fish's skin and gills without ingesting. Would like to know your opinion.

And here is a combination of the two plus garlic all in one treatment:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CN3KT89/re ... ljaz10cnVl


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Never used either of those. I use straight metronidazole purchased from a fish room supply store for a lot less than pet stores. 100 grams for $15 or 500 grams for $39.00. The fish breathe in the metronidazole through their gills anyway.

Kanaplex does not have metronidazole. I would recommend it for columnaris but not bloat.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> Never used either of those. I use straight metronidazole purchased from a fish room supply store for a lot less than pet stores. 100 grams for $15 or 500 grams for $39.00. The fish breathe in the metronidazole through their gills anyway.
> 
> Kanaplex does not have metronidazole. I would recommend it for columnaris but not bloat.


OK then I will get the Metroplex since I am about out of it. You mean 10 Grams for $15...yes?


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Metronidazole
METRO-100G
100 gms Powder
$15.00

Metronidazole
METRO-500G
500 gms powder
$39.95


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> Metronidazole
> METRO-100G
> 100 gms Powder
> $15.00
> ...


Thats a lot cheaper than Amazon...its 10 grams for $15!


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

To catch you up on the 240 gal tank and the 75 gallon tank:

The 240 gallon tank : Nitrate level 20 
the 75 gallon tank: Nitrate level 20 the six rainbow that were still alive when I started the salt cure for ich are still alive and look free of ICH..the poor pleco doesn't look happy but who can really tell? So if I read correctly, three days after no ICH seen...I can discontinue the salt and heat treatment right?


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I thought it was 3 weeks.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> I thought it was 3 weeks.


 this is a quote from the forum library:
How long? The salt bath should be maintained for approximately 10 days, or for at least 3 days after any visible signs of Ich can be detected. Do not discontinue treatment when the spots go away. If you use a higher dosage of salt, watch the duration more closely. One article (on guppies) specifically stated not to leave the fish in salt longer than ten days, but their dosage recommendation was on the high end at 5 tablespoons per 5 gallons.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

To update on the Williamsi Blue Lips: He is still in the hospital tank. I have tried feeding him with food soaked in garlic but he is not interested in eating. He hangs out behind the bubbler all the time. This is at least a month of no eating. I ran out of Metro today and my order from two days ago has not been shipped ...so today I called <vendor name removed> which is so much cheaper ( I was able to overnite it for tomorrow morning ). At this point he has yet to respond to metro and I cannot tell of anything else going on with him, now that he has been removed from the stress of being bullied. But of course being in the "hospital" is stress too. Any ideas? I will keep giving him Metro though he will miss a dose today, until he dies or gets well.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Treat with a double dose of metro for 3 days then try feeding.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

OK. I cannot believe he is still alive.


----------



## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Remember they are evolved to live a month without food on a regular basis...when females hold fry for one example.


----------



## naturlvr (May 16, 2019)

This will be my third day of double dose Metro. He is just getting darker which I take as a bad sign.


----------

