# Bolivian rams vs Blue rams???



## Hubbynz

Ok I am thinking of getting a pair of blue rams but I am not 100% sure of the difference between them and Bolivians. It seems that Bolivians are alot more popular on this site....

this is what I have gathered so far.....

Blue rams are more colourful, prefer warmer water and are smaller and more fragile???

Are there anymore major differences? Could some please give me a basic overview???

I prefer the colours of a Blue Ram to be honest.


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## blairo1

In short:

Blue Rams:
Intense colour (if kept well).
Poor parents.
Not the most intelligent of fish.
Very comical.

Bolivian Rams: 
Subtle but beautiful colours (if kept well).
Good parents. 
Higher level of intelligence and sociable interaction (particularly with their owner).
Less comical, more, cute.

Both fish are easy to keep and breed, the only difficulty is in finding good stock to start with.

Blue Rams like it considerably warmer and therefore to get the most out of them it is better to keep them at this warmer temp (30C for me) - which is limiting other species that can be kept with them. To keep other species with them you compromise on behalf of the Blue Rams and although they will still breed etc the colours and fry development just isn't as significant. I prefer to keep Blue Rams to species only tank in which I can provide the ideal parameters, I just don't feel that they fit well into the average community unless it is built around them, but they CAN adapt.

Basically if you don't have anything too aggressive and your fish can tolerate 28C temps, and you don't mind compromising, then Blues can work in your tank, so go with what you prefer.

Bolivians fit easily into most community settings and their parameter requirements are much more forgiving for community/general tank mates etc. They are somewhat more boisterous and can therefore tolerate pushier tankmates than the Blues. If you have fish that could pose problems (keyholes, other bolivians, apistos etc) then really you're better of with Bolivian rams as they can tolerate this and still thrive. Plus you may have fish that can't tolerate temps much over 26-27C.


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## Hubbynz

hmmmmmmmmmm

Thanks for all the detail Blair it has defiantely got me thinking :-?

I was going to setup a 66litre (almost 20 gallon) tank to be stocked with a pair of blue rams and a keyhole, tetras and corys.......

Maybee I should go for a pair of bolivains instead and a keyhole....or perhaps two keyholes and one bolivain.

I still would definately prefer blue rams but they sound alot more challenging to keep.....I don't know what to choose now :-?


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## Dutch Dude

Bolivians are les colorful but definitely a hardier specie. Bolivians do best in small groups just like their big relatives Geophagus. The tank is to small to keep a small group of Bolivians and there is only room for a pair. If you are new to the hobby or new to SA cichlids I suggest to go with the Bolivians. If you are a bit more experienced and willing to do 2 to 3 times a week a 50% water change I suggest the stronger colored GBR. If you want to raise some fry (for fun) I suggest the Bolivians again. Be aware that your tank is quit small and it is easely overstocked.


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## hollyfish2000

A 20 gallon is quite small. I personally wouldn't do more than a pair of blue rams (which I prefer to Bolivians) a small school of tetras (maybe 6-7) and a small group of small cories, say 3 or so. While most folks seem to prefer the Bolivians, I didn't have a great experience with them. I found them, frankly, a bit obnoxious, and I'm much happier with my laid back blue rams. Both types were attractive, though, IMHO.


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## Dutch Dude

Lets through in an other dwarf specie that is colorful,....how abouth Apistogramma? Some domesticated species like A. agassizi, A. hongsloi II, A. cacatuoides and A. borellii (Opal) are not that difficult to keep and are very nice colored. They come in a small package as well and be fine with small tetras. They prefer densely planted tanks with some caves. Be aware that most specie do fine in a small tank but species like A. pandura are more territorial and need a large tank. Wild specimen are delicate so I suggest the domesticated mentioned species.


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## NYjets51

I hate to kind of steal Hubbynz thread, but what pH can blue rams be kept at?


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## blairo1

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... php?id=421


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## NYjets51

Yes I know it says <6, but can they be kept at anything higher? Like how some people keep angels at 7.8 even though it says <7


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## blairo1

You can keep them up to a pH of 7.6 ish but I wouldn't push it higher. There are people who do keep them in a higher pH, but I usually hear of more problems occurring when they're kept in the 7.5+ range. Plus I found their colours to be washed out and they got stress markings with ease.

When I kept them in pH 5.5 they were so vibrant it's unreal. Really worth providing them with the right environment, if you think they're nice in general water wait until you give them ideal conditions.


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## dwarfpike

If you would be happy with a tank just containing the blue rams and either cardinal tetras or rummynose tetras, and nothing else (no cories, ect) ... then it sounds like you'd enjoy the blues more. The reason I only recommend those two tetras, is besides them and discus, nothing else really enjoys the hotter water blue rams need to thrive.

If you find that too limiting, I'd go bolivians which open up the types of tankmates you can have with them.


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## NYjets51

Blairo, how is it even possible to get the waters pH level down to 5.5?


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## blairo1

With a ridiculously low KH and driftwood!

My pH can hit 5 really easily left to it's own devices - I actually have to buffer my KH to maintain a neutral pH.

Other options are to use Peat in your filters as this softens it, reducing the KH and therefore dropping the pH. However with this you also need to make sure that you have a nice big container with peat in, to ready water for your water changes.

OR, you can use a Reverse Osmosis kit and then buffer the water UP to the desired pH etc.

:thumb:


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## carpio77b

My blues are thriving nicely at 79 deg. F w/ 6.2 pH. I do water changes every two weeks and use peat moss in the filter. The tank is heavily planted. Here is a list of other fish in the tank that are having no problems with the conditions:

male betta
bamboo shrimp
african frog
white cloud tetra
rummynose tetra
dwarf honey gourami
otos
(3) kinds of cories
hillman loach


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## Hubbynz

Ok what if I want for

1x Apistogramma Cacatuoides Double Red German 
1x Keyhole
1x Bolivain ram

all in a 20gall?

No pairs so pressumably limited aggression?


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## lotsofish

I've kept the cacauoides with rams so I know that combo works. Not sure about the keyhole but someone else can comment on that.

I do suggest adding a few corys and a bristlenose as a cleanup crew. Also a few tetras for a little more movement in the tank. The rams and apistos are not the most active fish. If your tank is heavily planted, you may not see them much. However, the Bolivians are not as shy as the blue rams in my experience.


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## cc_woman

I was just reading this, and I find it very interesting. I just wanted to add that if you want to lower the KH and pH in your aquarium, and you already have a higher pH, say of about 7.6, you don't have to use complete RO water and then use the buffers. You can use a combination of RO and tap, you will just have to experiment with what ratio of RO to tap you will need to lower the pH and KH. I know some people around me who do this with their discus tanks, and they typically use a ratio of 30%RO and 70% tap, or 60% tap and 40% RO. So depending on what your KH and pH are already at, will determine what ratio you will need.

IMO I like the german blues, I have kept both, and failed with the GB's but I will try again in the future for sure once I can get my RO up and running. It is true though that you probably should lower the pH to at least the 6's, since mine were kept in a pH of 7.6. They are definitely not very hardy, and the ballon rams, gold rams etc are all the same when it comes to maintenance. The bolivian are definitely more hardy, and less shy, I have a pair of them that are doing great. It all depends on how much work you would be willing to put into a tank. I also have to say that I absolutely love using shrimp as a clean up crew, and you can definitely mix them in with any kind of rams. I kept the cacatuoides in with GB's and bolivians, so they would most likely work together. I have heard of the apistos preferring cooler water though than the GB's so I would maybe use caution when keeping those 2 together, since either one or the other might suffer from it. But others who know more about the apisto's might be able to tell you if it will work.


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## blairo1

cc_woman said:


> I was just reading this, and I find it very interesting. I just wanted to add that if you want to lower the KH and pH in your aquarium, and you already have a higher pH, say of about 7.6, you don't have to use complete RO water and then use the buffers. You can use a combination of RO and tap, you will just have to experiment with what ratio of RO to tap you will need to lower the pH and KH. I know some people around me who do this with their discus tanks, and they typically use a ratio of 30%RO and 70% tap, or 60% tap and 40% RO. So depending on what your KH and pH are already at, will determine what ratio you will need.


Yeah, I didn't want to go into too much detail, but here's an easy way of working out how much RO to Tap you need to attain a certain set of parameters. By doing like this (as cc_woman has suggested) you will save a lot of money:

Hardness of Tap Water - Required Hardness = Parts of Osmosis Water
Hardness of Osmosis Water - Required Hardness = Parts of Tap Water

Example; 
Your tap water has a hardness of 20, your required hardness is 5:
20-5 = 15 parts osmosis water.

Your Osmosis water has a hardness of 1, your required hardness is still the same (5):
1-5 = 4 parts tap water (negatives are ignored as positive numbers).

So you can see the above equation tells you how much to mix. With a tap hardness of 20 and an RO hardness of 1, it will take 15 parts osmosis water and 4 parts tap water to make up a hardness of 5.

To the OP, I've kept a Keyhole with my Bolivians and had no issues, the Keyholes will be dominant and you need to keep an eye on them because some can be really pushy of other fish. Bolivians get stressed by this constant pressure, especially in such a small tank. I don't see why you can't do it, you may find some quarrels initially but if you get fish with a good temperament and you aquascape heavily then it's entirely possible. Keep a close eye on that Keyhole and make sure he's not a bully, mine was.


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## hollyfish2000

For reasons I can't quite explain, I wouldn't do an all male SA cichlid tank. The interaction between the sexes in interesting and the girls look as good as the boys (except for the apisto, but even then the girls have their appeal). Now, this is being said by someone with an all male peacock/hap tank, so I see that I'm being inconsistent . . .

Your pH will drop if you use pressurized C02 in your tank. I can't explain the process, but mywater is over 7 out of the tap and with C02 it's about 6.2-6.4, perfect for angels, apistos and blue rams, etc. I previously mixed tap with RO water, but once I started the C02, that wasn't necessary. My rams are in temps 78-80.

For what it's worth . . .


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## hollyfish2000

double post, sorry


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## blairo1

> The interaction between the sexes in interesting and the girls look as good as the boys (except for the apisto, but even then the girls have their appeal). Now, this is being said by someone with an all male peacock/hap tank, so I see that I'm being inconsistent . . .


I really couldn't agree more.

The problem is in this size tank mixing sexes of various species will result in a dominant pair breeding and making life misery for the others. Personally I'd take *hollyfish2000*'s line of thinking and in a 20 gallon I'd stick to a breeding pair/harem, with some interesting dithers/tank mates.

FYI - be careful if you drop the KH and pH in your tank because the water you add should match it as closely as possible.

The thing is that pH change through carbonic acid (co2's effect) is different to the pH change experienced from introducing an altered KH (and therefore pH). The majority of fish will be fine, however with too big a difference you pose several risks, especially to sensitive species. I've done both - I've had a lower pH through co2 and added tap water that was a little more alkali, never had a problem, BUT, my KH is so low that as soon as I add pH 7 water to acidic tank water it crashes, immediately crashes - my water has almost no buffering capacity and therefore the moment an acid hits it, it becomes acidic - makes my life easy. But I still prefer to match parameters. If I had a stable KH out the tap - ie if the water was better able to absorb an acid without becoming an acid (buffering), then when I added that to the tank it wouldn't crash, it would push my pH up - not good.


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## Mtngoat

Question: I am new to chiclids and went to purchase a blue ram and came home with a German ram because of a mistake. When I was at the fish store again I realized this and got a blue ram with the intention of returning my German ram. Both are males and I have to admit I fell in love with both. My German boy comes over and hangs out with me! And my blue is beautiful and so fun to watch. It's only a 45 gallon tank and I have Cory's which another post above said is a no go for blues? I can't keep them both can I?
Also is it ok if I post this here? I'm new


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## Mr Chromedome

Would have been better to start your own thread rather than dragging up one that is over 10 years old. You're lucky someone noticed this.

That said, Blue and German are two names for the same species. The most commonly used name these days is German Blue Ram, or GBR for short; scientific name is _Mikrogeophagus ramirezi_. Your second picture shows one of these. Your first picture shows a Bolivian Ram, a different species (_Mikrogeophagus altispinosa_) from nearly the opposite end of SA. The Bolivian prefers mid 70s F., while the other prefers temperatures in the low to mid 80s.

It is not recommended to keep the two species together because of the temperature differences. As far as keeping Corys with them, I think that is usually advised against for breeding fish, not so much for individuals.


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