# Demasoni aggresion issues have begun.



## Joekahuna (Oct 9, 2007)

As some of you might know, I have a 55 gallon with 11 demasoni( one female is in a separate tank because she is holding) For the past 2-3 days I have seen two demasoni hiding around the filter and heater, they darkened up to hide in the shadow. Today I rearranged my rocks and made more caves/holes, to see if this would help. It didnt. The dominant male now has half the tank and the rest of the fish are in the other half. everyone is fine, the other two are still around the filter, the dominant male chases one of the females into "his side" and tries to seduce her or whatever it is they do. The question is, 
Should I remove the dominant male? 
should I remove the two hiding around the filter?
All of the above?
and last how do you tell your males from females? thanks


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

try taking some rock out, don't allow them to hold territories


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

^ or if you are like me and can't imagine a mbuna tank with no rocks, then try adding so much small~medium sized rocks that the male can't chase everyone away from all the lil nook and crannies around his territory. I had this problem about 1+week ago. I rearranged entire tank and made a rock pile stretching the entire 4ft tank and about 2/3 height of the tank(instead of initial smaller separate piles of rock). The chasing was still there, but there were no more stressed out fishes. Even fin nipping almost completely went away. I believe this worked because there is now so many places to hide/run and there are no distinct piles of rocks where the fishes shy away from due to a known "owner" of the pile.

The best short term solution I have tried is to isolate the dominant male, but another dom male will appear to reclaim that spot, and he might be less aggressive, or might even be a worst psychopath.

Sexing young demasoni is practically impossible by merely observation. You can probably identify 1~2 dominant males, but the rest you probably can't tell until they are holding, or big enough for you to vent accurately. I was trying very hard to tell male/female in my batch of 18 but could not. Recently 2 of the fishes i thought were males (because of bright color, aggression, and shaking motions), they ended up holding.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If he is keeping all the fish on the other side, I'd probably try to remove him. This has not happened to me with Demasoni, usually for me all fish are all over the tank except the two victims, and so I remove them.


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## Joekahuna (Oct 9, 2007)

ok, I didnt feel like opening another post with stocking questions so here it goes. So, The agression issues have gone for some reason, maybe because I changed the gravel to sand and rearranged the rockwork, I think I have more caves now. The question is, if I have 12 dems, rarely all 12 are in the tank at the same time, usually there is one or two females in a separate "holding tank", how many Rusties can I fit in there, if any?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You can do 1m:4f of the rusties and maybe even another species. I'd up the count a little on the Demasoni however.


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## TheCrazyCunuck (May 31, 2010)

I wouldnt remove it. Another will become dominant.


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## kabuto (Mar 9, 2007)

TheCrazyCunuck said:


> I wouldnt remove it. Another will become dominant.


the point of removing dominant fish is only if he is overly aggressive.
Another dominant fish will step up for sure yes, but the next individual might be less aggressive.

I've found my gentle dominant demasoni male by doing this. He only fights with other large males, and mostly leave the others alone. He owns the right half the tank, and 2nd dominant male owns the left half. All the fish are on the right side of the tank.


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

Is it almost always a subdominant male that gets pushed away into hiding? I just got ten in my 67 gallon tank and have one that is now very pale and hiding near the top by the heater. It comes out to eat and I think stays out when the lights are off but am not sure on that one. Should I remove it and try beefing it up in my 20 gallon holding/fry tank? I just didnt know if females get pushed and stressed out like this too or if this may be a good way to determine the weaker males. They are all still small, at about an inch and a quarter and I cant get anymore right now as I pretty much cleaned out the shop as well as my wallet for a bit. Anybody have luck with them breeding and growing out the fry?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

k7gixxerguy said:


> Is it almost always a subdominant male that gets pushed away into hiding?


IME yes.



k7gixxerguy said:


> I just got ten in my 67 gallon tank and have one that is now very pale and hiding near the top by the heater. It comes out to eat and I think stays out when the lights are off but am not sure on that one. Should I remove it and try beefing it up in my 20 gallon holding/fry tank?


I'd remove it and return it to the LFS after letting it heal up. Trade for females.



k7gixxerguy said:


> this may be a good way to determine the weaker males.


IME yes.



k7gixxerguy said:


> They are all still small, at about an inch and a quarter and I cant get anymore right now as I pretty much cleaned out the shop as well as my wallet for a bit.


Removing 2 sub-doms and being left with less than 12 individuals could be a problem. Trade any and all sub-dom males for females.



k7gixxerguy said:


> Anybody have luck with them breeding and growing out the fry?


Yes...they are easy to breed.


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

DJRansome said:


> k7gixxerguy said:
> 
> 
> > Is it almost always a subdominant male that gets pushed away into hiding?
> ...


Yes...they are easy to breed.[/quote

Thank you for the info. I just spoke with the store where I got my fish this weekend. They will swap out fish with me as they get weeded through to try to get the right ratios. At least they will know that what they are getting back are males. I will introduce the hiding subdom to the 20 gallon tonight. Have you tried beefing them up quicker and reintroducing before or is it more personality then size?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

k7gixxerguy said:


> Have you tried beefing them up quicker and reintroducing before or is it more personality then size?


I think it's personality. Once their confidence is gone...it's gone.


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

OP, sorry for the thread jack. I thought we may as well keep the demasoni trials and tribulations to one thread.


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

Ok, so my hospital tank is all good at the same temp and parameter as the mbuna tank. Herein lies my problem. I have the one subdom demasoni that hides a couple inches from the top by the heater. It comes out when I feed and occasionally on its own for a couple hours. It still is so small that identifying while out in the crowd is not something that I feel that I can do. As soon as I open the top, he darts out and into the rocks or the crowd that thinks that they are going to get fed. If I leave the lid open as soon as the net touches the water, he's gone. If I remove the hood, he stays away. I don't want it to die or be killed, but am not sure how to go about catching him. If I pull the rocks out, I'm afraid that I will disrupt the biological cycle that has just been established and still not be able to distinguish the subdom from the group. Any words of advice?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

k7gixxerguy said:


> but am not sure how to go about catching him. If I pull the rocks out, I'm afraid that I will disrupt the biological cycle that has just been established and still not be able to distinguish the subdom from the group. Any words of advice?


Removing the rocks will not disrupt the bacteria or the cycle...bacteria live mostly in your filter media. Don't scrub the rocks.

I usually wait until they start wearing him down and he isn't moving so fast. :thumb: Check every day though.

If you stare at them long enough, sometimes you can ID a unique mark on the gill plate or tail that can help you ID when they get all mixed together.

Also I purposely stack my rocks so I can remove 1-2 and have a space for a divider to section off the last rock pile. If you can "divide" him in that section you minimize the # of similar fish to sort out and the # of rocks you have to remove.


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

Ok, so the one demasoni that seems to spend some time behind the heater is still coming out and hanging out with the others for extended durations of time, so I will wait a while longer to see where things go. Another has me slightly concerned though. It spends its time under the edges of one of the highest rocks in the center of the tank. It is so tight where it goes that it has to clamp its fins to get in. He doesnt always come out to eat either. I feed them twice a day, about enough that its all gone in thirty seconds although they still search the substrate after this to see what they may have missed. This ones colors are quite distinct too, not washed out, very dark bars. Should I be worried about this one at all? My water parameters look pretty good with pH 8.3, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 20ppm, kH 10, gH 15. I'm probably going to boil and add some more of the rocks that I had collected initially which will give some more hiding spots as well.


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

Here are a few pics of the tank. The first couple are before I stocked and also before I added a few more rocks to make the openings or tunnels in the rocks smaller. Sorry about the blurry fish pics, they are way too quick for the iphone.


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## AlphaWild (Apr 9, 2009)

If it were me, I'd add more rock and make the spaces tighter. If the fish want to hide, that means hiding from you too, so those big open see-thru spaces may not feel safe to a fish low on the pecking order. It's not at all unusual for my fish to cram themselves into tight spaces; they like it that way. But not coming out to feed could be a problem if it persists.


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

Ok, I'm going to redo/add more rock tonight. Interesting question though. Do mbuna typically like more current or less? I'm trying to decide where to put the bigger section of rock at, near the filter outlet side or the heater side. Don't get me wrong, there will be rock all the way across but I know one area will be built up moreso then another.


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

Also, one Dem has claimed the area in the corner by the two rocks at the bottom end of the heater. It seems colored up decently and fins out most of the time without hiding behind the heater itself. Should this just be considered his territory or not. You can see the area in question in the second pic above.


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## AlphaWild (Apr 9, 2009)

I don't see any significant preference in my tank in regards to the current produced by a spray bar on an Rena XP3 and an Emperor 400. When they think foods coming, they get right into the current, noses up. Otherwise, they're all over the place. If I tinker at all with current, it's to try and get "dead spots" where detritus collects moving back to the intakes.
If he's not hiding, I'd say he just likes the spot.


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## riverpaws (Dec 7, 2011)

My acei currently love the current made by the powerhead I have. They skip around in it all the time like they're enjoying themselves. They move in and out of it in a little school and leapfrog each other.


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

Alright, I added more rock today making a ton more hideaway spots that they seem to love. The largest pile is right under the hob as well so I have seen a benefit from this. When I feed them, the pellets that don't immediately sink get pushed down on the larger flat rocks rather than into the gravel substrate. Now they don't have to dig through the gravel to get the last few morsels. I also pulled two subdom males and have them in my 20gallon hospital/fry tank to take to exchange this weekend. Hopefully our girl guessing goes well to get two more. It appears that of the seven still in the tank that two maybe three are males. There is one that seems like more of a loner but won't give up its spot and is very dark. It has always had a spot under larger flat rocks near the substrate while the others tend to go a couple layers up. Would this likely be a male? It chases anyone that tries to enter his spot.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

k7gixxerguy said:


> Would this likely be a male? It chases anyone that tries to enter his spot.


It's hard to tell. Is he bigger than the others?

This is the thrill of demasoni. :thumb:


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

DJRansome said:


> k7gixxerguy said:
> 
> 
> > Would this likely be a male? It chases anyone that tries to enter his spot.
> ...


He is average size for the group. Are the males normally bigger even when they are so young? They are about 1 and 3/8" now.


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## AlphaWild (Apr 9, 2009)

Not that it's in any way conclusive, but usually my males outgrow my females (I can't usually tell until they're breeding age). And I have seen a preference for claiming caves at substrate level, which means the dominant male usually gets first pick of the prime spot. Good luck with the trade-in!


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

Ok, new issue here. Monday I did the rock rework and waited a couple hours to see if the two skittish/stressed subdoms would find one of the newfound areas in the rock. By bedtime, about five hours later, the one was still by the heater and the other was 2/3 the way up the center of the back wall and looking really stressed. I removed them both, they finally didnt have enough in them to bolt as soon as I got the net near the water. I placed them in my hospital/fry grow out tank which has the same water parameters as the big tank. I set it up two Sundays ago but have not done any fishless cycling as I knew that it would be needed before the cycle would be ready. I placed an extra foam block in my 67 gallons filter at the same time that I setup the 20, then put it in the 20s filter along with the charcoal cartridge that had been running. The fish ate the first day in there but then didnt want to yesterday. I woke up this morning and went to try again but the one that hung out by the heater had died overnight. I removed him and had to head out for work. When I got home, I checked on the second who wasnt looking good either. It kept hiding way under a rock but my girl said it looked bad a couple hours earlier. The fins werent beat up on either, they actually colored up more when I put them in the 20 so I thought they would be ok. I checked my paramaters in fear that the ammonia may have spiked depending on when the lil guy died. It still read zero with an API master test kit, but nitrites were at 1ppm. I did a 30% water change and in pouring it in the second dem flushed out from under the one rock and just laid there at about a 30 degree angle from vertical. It is still breathing, but just was sitting there like if it were sleeping. Its dorsal fin is up but tail fin looked somewhat clamped. This is really bumming me out as I have no idea what happened/is happening. The fish that was by the heater used to always come out when it was feeding time, then an hour later it would be back by the heater. I honestly cant say how the other had been eating before or if it had stopped. Does anyone have any ideas or anything else that I can look for? The tank had sat for about eight years unused, but was washed out and new gravel put in, new filter media, etc. when I set it up two sundays ago.


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

Here are a few pix with the new rock setup. Is this a bit better? There are tons of lil nooks that they can back into and not worry about someone sneaking in from the backside. The last one also shows the demasoni that I said earlier finds low places in the substrate. I think he thinks hes a snake slithering under that flat rock.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Try looking at each demasoni and see if anyone has thready white poop. Did you have the nitrites in the hospital or the main tank? And the deaths were in the hospital tank only?


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

DJRansome said:


> Try looking at each demasoni and see if anyone has thready white poop. Did you have the nitrites in the hospital or the main tank? And the deaths were in the hospital tank only?


Yes, the nitrites were only in the hospital tank. No stringy white poop on any demasoni, I had been looking for that. Deaths were in the hospital tank. The pH is the same, ammonia was zero, it was slightly cooler at 76 degrees wheras my main tank is 78. I've been trying to get it to come up a couple more degrees to match up or go a degree or so warmer than the main tank.


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## Fishingback (Feb 9, 2012)

The L. hongi and L. caeruleus may have issues later on, due to the hongi chasing the caeruleus.


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

Fishingback said:


> The L. hongi and L. caeruleus may have issues later on, due to the hongi chasing the caeruleus.


The rusties aren't hongi. ???? Not sure where that statement came from.


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## AlphaWild (Apr 9, 2009)

Wish I had an answer for you, but I don't.  Any fish I've pulled from being bullied was noticeably beat up, especially the tail.


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

Well it looks like one more subdom demasoni is being pushed around. I have seen one by the heater once or twice. There are seven total, 5 that hang out around each other a lot and two that keep to themselves. One wedges itself in the rocks super tight and the other hides either in the rocks near the heater or up by the heater. I will try to snag it out tonight when I get home. It will get traded in tomorrow leaving 6 demasoni. So I will try to get seven more tomorrow night as we are venturing to our preferred lfs to get some plants for my girl's nano setup and maybe a couple shrimp and lil fish. Any advice as far anything else that I can look for for getting females. It appears now that of the nine original, 4 were males, five females. The one that is getting pushed out now is the very first one that I picked too. Two of its bars actually make a "V" on its right side making it very easy to identify.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Really no way to pick females that I know of. The smallest ones maybe.


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

DJRansome said:


> Really no way to pick females that I know of. The smallest ones maybe.


Picking the little ones does frighten me though because the size that they are it seems the little ones were the ones getting pushed around alot too. Who knows, I have considered taking the seven back in to get something different as the shop is so far from my house that its hard to trade them in one here one there to try and get it right.


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

Ok, so I decided due to the distance and impracticality of swapping demasoni to switch up for now. I plan on building a larger tank in a year or so, so the 67 may end up eventually as a demasoni species tank only. For now though, I traded the dems in and got a breeding pair, about 4.5" of electric blue haps of the iceberg variation. It was supposed to be a male and two girls but the other female was missing. They are getting me two more girls which hopefully with the fish breeding will support my oncoming mts syndrome. I also picked up a synodontis petricola and will snag two more when I get the other one or two girls for the blue.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Big fish for a 55G.


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

DJRansome said:


> Big fish for a 55G.


It's a 67, 18 by 18 by 48. And since I get glass from my work, I will probably be building a six foot tank sooner than later. Oncoming MTS me thinks.


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