# Red Empress male holding eggs?



## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

OK guys....just turned the lights on a few minutes ago and noticed that my male(pretty sure its a male) is holding. Last night he was digging out a large hole in the coral/sand in the back of the tank next to a large rock. Every time a fish got close he chased them away without mercy ALL over the tank for at least 30 seconds. I am pretty sure it is a male as the head/lips are turning blue and the ends of the fins are turning yellow/red with blue dots and the sides behind the gills are turning orange. I have had female empresses before and they never showed any coloration or virtually none.

The only fish I am not sure are males are the fusco, red fin borleyi and electric blue ahli. I did not notice any spawning type before over the last several days. The empress last night would chase any fish away from the hole he dug but the two he wouldn't chase as hard are the borleyi and fusco but they are a bit bigger than he is so not sure if that was why.

Have you guys ever heard of male empresses holding eggs? Maybe this was a female showing male colors to avoid aggression?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Males don't hold. Maybe it's just the pics, but I can't see the holding bulge.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

DJRansome said:


> Males don't hold. Maybe it's just the pics, but I can't see the holding bulge.


That's what I was afraid of. The pics don't show the bulge very well but its there for sure. There was a part of the body near the anal fin extruding last night and on my electric blue ahli. I think they are both female and I think I now know why the aggression level the last couple of days has been really bad. I am just trying to figure out the male they are trying to spawn with.


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## frank1rizzo (Mar 14, 2005)

they can lay eggs with no males.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Whats weird is I have never seen a female empress take on or start to take on the colors of the male. Knowing that the empress and ahli are now females it leaves me with a problem. I was trying for an all male tank as it is only a 75g. If I had a bigger tank I would just add some more fish hoping they were males. I guess I am going to have to dismantle my rock structure to catch and return them to my LFS. This is a real bummer.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Ah the pleasures of an all-male tank. :thumb:


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

DJRansome said:


> Ah the pleasures of an all-male tank. :thumb:


I am seriously thinking about returning ALL the fish I am not 100% are male to my LFS for store credit and buying 3+" male fish online that have already been sexed. Any site sponsors you guys would recommend?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Please make recommendations via PM only to avoid violating CF rules.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

1. It looks as though it is a fish that has been hormoned at some point.
2. It is holding.
3. It doesn't look like a pure Red Empress.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Fogelhund said:


> 1. It looks as though it is a fish that has been hormoned at some point.
> 2. It is holding.
> 3. It doesn't look like a pure Red Empress.


Do you think it will fully color as it continues to grow? You know....this is about the 3rd fish I have bought from this LFS that has colored either a) when it is a female or b) at WAY too young an age.


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## brinkles (Jan 30, 2011)

If it was hormoned, it will fade.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

brinkles said:


> If it was hormoned, it will fade.


Thats what I was worried about. I am going to take her back on saturday. I wish shipping wasn't so expensive otherwise I would have no worries ordering males online. I am worried about buying more fish from the same LFS where I keep getting these hormoned fish.


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## brinkles (Jan 30, 2011)

I wouldn't buy squat from them.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

brinkles said:


> I wouldn't buy squat from them.


I was going to take a couple back for store credit and buy some prime and more NLS. I am going to try and order online when I have some extra $$$ to pay for the $40 overnight freight plus the cost of the fish. This hormoning of the fish is illegal isn't it?


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## brinkles (Jan 30, 2011)

I can't imagine it's illegal, seeing that they sell all those dyed fish. I'd def. trade them fish for food and prime.

I have some really great places to shop for fish locally, yet can't find NLS anywhere!


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

brinkles said:


> I can't imagine it's illegal, seeing that they sell all those dyed fish. I'd def. trade them fish for food and prime.
> 
> I have some really great places to shop for fish locally, yet can't find NLS anywhere!


I took them back today and they just received a shipment of fish and they were hormoned as well straight from the supplier. I pointed out the 1" red fin borleyi having FULL male colors and fins as well as some other fish. I voiced my concerns and will not buy any more fish unless he changes vendors.


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## brinkles (Jan 30, 2011)

It's hard to sell $10 little silver fish, unfortunately. One store local to me has a display tank with colored males, and the other is considering it. That way they can show customers what the little silver fish might turn into.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

brinkles said:


> It's hard to sell $10 little silver fish, unfortunately. One store local to me has a display tank with colored males, and the other is considering it. That way they can show customers what the little silver fish might turn into.


Oh they have display tanks. They have 1 410g african tank and 2 225g african display tanks. I think the problem is sexing them at such a small size when they are all just drab looking or silver as you say. I think after what I witnessed today that it is not the LFS but the supplier. Either way it makes me angry as I have had to return 5 fish so far that looked to be coloring as males, fin shape, etc...or the hormoned 1" borleyi's that were dressed as full grown males. I am going to 2 other LFS's tomorrow to see if they haveany new fish in but they are mainly saltwater.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I believe it IS illegal and as mentioned tends to happen at offshore suppliers as opposed to US LFS.


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## brinkles (Jan 30, 2011)

I hope it's illegal, I'm curious now.


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## Dominateprimate (Aug 27, 2011)

I don't think it's illegal because my LFS has dyed fish as well ("strawberry tiger barbs" just as one example). My LFS was nice enough to warn me that the fish was dyed before I made a purchase though. I don't think they knew when they bought them that they were just albinos dyed red.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Dyed fish is different than hormoned fish. Not sure about the legality of dyeing fish, but remember, they still could have been dyed abroad and shipped here with the deed already done.


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