# New Victorian shipment?



## gacichlids

Has anyone heard anything about any recent or upcoming Victorian shipments? I am trying to get some new blood for my obliqs. I can't afford a big purchase.

What is a good look for obliqs technically anyway. I always preferred full zebra striping, coming down from the dorsal and up from the belly, but some like plain solid stripes. Any advice here would be helpful too.


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## deadman

are you speaking about haplochromis sp. 44 red tail or the astotilipia latificanitia? to my knowledge true hap obliguedends arent in the hobby here in the us.


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## gacichlids

I have A. Latisfasciata, aka Hap. Obliquidens. The breeder where I purchased my male from has been breeding for like twenty years or more. I got my obliq females from a friend up in Michigan who is very reliable. They were sold as A. Latisfasciata "obliquidens", which I read was a new name for what was one called Hap. Obliquidens, not a different species.

Obliquidens were so popular not that long ago, and such prolific breeders that I find it hard to believe that they do not exist in the aquarium trade and recently read the opposite. I have heard they are becoming endangered in the wild but exist in the aquarium trade. Interbreeding obliqs ruins the striping, and the striping may appear more like hap 44 that you mention, but I believe there is no actual change to the dna of the fish, though they may be inbred and badly striped. That is why I tried to seek out two very different and distant sources for my "obliqs". But still, when your breeders die or get too old, you need fresh blood to keep producing good looking fish. So a lack of imports is a problem.

I have heard two different views on what striping is desireable, it comes down to straight stripes or zebra "broken" stripes. I have actually seen several adult obliqs in mixed cichlid bins down here, likely from the larger fish farms.


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## samaki

Hi
this is a case of mislabelling, H.obliquidens, is H.sp"red back scraper" a algae scraper from nyegezi bay, H.latifasciatus is an insect eater from Kyoga lake often called zebra obliquidens but this is not its scientific name, H.sp"44" is often called H.obliquidens just because of its yellow body color but it's absolutly not this species. Only tyhe red back scraper fit into the obliquidens description.
xris


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## StructureGuy

gacichlids said:


> I find it hard to believe that they do not exist in the aquarium trade
> 
> I believe there is no actual change to the dna of the fish, though they may be inbred and badly striped. That is why I tried to seek out two very different and distant sources for my "obliqs". But still, when your breeders die or get too old, you need fresh blood to keep producing good looking fish. So a lack of imports is a problem.


It seems to me that you are complicating things a bit. There are plenty of very nice strains of Haplochromis (Astatotilapia) latifasciata commonly available in the hobby. It's unlikely that you will ever find any wild stock. I would encourage you to drop the "obliquidens" reference for this species since it is not correct.

Kevin


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## deadman

where i am in texas they are abundant in the local fish stores. to answer your first question yes it would be best that the barring go from the top of the back to just above the belly. i believe this is correct.


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## gacichlids

Thanks. I just want fish from a source I can trust so I know exactly what I am getting. I just need fish that are of good solid quality that are not closely related to mine. Shouldn't be hard to find. I do appreciate the help in the barring.

The profile for A. Latisfasciata (the fish I have) has "Zebra Obliquidens" as the common name for that fish.


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## mbargas

gacichlids said:


> Thanks. I just want fish from a source I can trust so I know exactly what I am getting. I just need fish that are of good solid quality that are not closely related to mine. Shouldn't be hard to find. I do appreciate the help in the barring.
> 
> The profile for A. Latisfasciata (the fish I have) has "Zebra Obliquidens" as the common name for that fish.


Try the *Daytona Aquarium* in Daytona Beach FL. He has some nice ones with good color.


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## gacichlids

Thanks! I've been wondering what stores are good in Daytona. It'd be a great weekend trip!


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## football mom

I have recently purchased a group of Astatotilapia latifasciata, and have learned that "zebra obliquidens" is not a correct name for them, even though it is still used in the pet trade.
I really like them, they are active, colorful fish, and show no aggression to each other, or to the L. caeruleus that share their tank.


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## alanastar

Hi, "zebra obliquidens" is the old trade name for Astatotilapia latifasciata.
But i think it may stick because i for one can't say Astatotilapia latifasciata without getting my tongue twisted and end up looking silly !

It may not be correct but will be with us for some time.

Not sure if the barring is a good indicator for quality of fish either, they are like a finger print - all different. For example i am in to my 3 generation of "outbreeding" with these fish and my last pairing produced such an array of markings. some blended in, some only half way down the body, some only had two stripes. With no wild stock for over 30 years it is difficult to say what the original fish looked like, but commercial breeders select "desirable" fish (to them) for uniform long dark barring and after so many generations that's all you see.

If you want to breed your fish try and track down fish from different suppliers/breeders to ensure unrelated fish ( distant at the least )

Here is a "3rd generation" outbred fish (from original pairs i purchased not wild)


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## deadman

i may be mistaken but i believe that ll of the ones available in the hobby came from a one time collection from the lake many years ago.


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## gacichlids

Alanastar--
I know what you mean. I got my male from down south from an old breeder, like been doing them for twenty years, then I got some from up in michigan from a reputable source. But three generations in, you start having problems, striping on one side not the same as the other, really bad variations, incomplete striping. I agree, in my experience, the striping from the bottom up seems to be the striping we are losing, or to put it another way, the striping from the top down is not complete. From what I can remember from almost twenty years ago, Zebra obliquidens that people respected in the cichlid trade pointed out to me as as desireable, and I sure liked them the best, were the ones with real zebra striping, stripes up from the bottom ending in a point alternating with similar stripes down from the top. A common variation I have seen that seems consistent with males is an X on one flank and straight stripes on the other side. Females seem to come out with all straight stripes, but some are bold and go all the way down the sides and some don't.

I don't know about the one shipment thing, I thought they were brought in pretty regular up until 2007, the last shipment. I read on one site that they were getting a shipment in of vics, the first shipment in a years, but I think perhaps the site was outdated. That's why I was asking.

I am seeking out A. latisfasciata down here that should be different blood lines since they originally spring from this older breeder. I will buy up what I can get, then perhaps I will find people to trade with, so we mix up our bloodlines again. That should help. I've been culling my stock and trying to be selective.


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## samaki

hi, i wouldnt focuse on the barring as wild individuals does'nt have a regular one, many wild fish have irregular barrs, it's not a criteria to select the strain.
xris
yu may cross a 20 generation fish with another 20 generation fish and in many case yu'll have an individual with almost the same genetic diversity as when they were imported in the hobby.


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## alanastar

Hi again,

I think it is easy to confuse what is "desirable" - usually selectively bred for these characteristics as what is would have been found in the wild (more natural). The irregular banding after 3 unrelated generations would make me think that wild stocks may have been highly variable.

This is just a thought on my part and not fact. There are many species of malawi's that are selectively bred for what is a more "desirable" look. But when we get throw backs they are looked upon as inbred runts.

I am very interested in this and would like to hear what others think.

paul


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## dogofwar

Paul - your perspective is right on.

Some confuse more colorful, larger, longer fins, perfect banding, etc. with more authentic to what is found in the wild... while (ironically) the most colorful, largest, longest finned (i.e. aethetically desireable) fish come from line-breeding (i.e. just the opposite). Look at peacocks.

We're superimposing our aesthetic values on nature. But I guess that's part of keeping fish in a glass box...

There is natural variability in a population of animals.. some more so than others... just look at people!



alanastar said:


> Hi again,
> 
> I think it is easy to confuse what is "desirable" - usually selectively bred for these characteristics as what is would have been found in the wild (more natural). The irregular banding after 3 unrelated generations would make me think that wild stocks may have been highly variable.
> 
> This is just a thought on my part and not fact. There are many species of malawi's that are selectively bred for what is a more "desirable" look. But when we get throw backs they are looked upon as inbred runts.
> 
> I am very interested in this and would like to hear what others think.
> 
> paul


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## football mom

I agree, the "desirable" traits become fixed in a line of animals after being selectively bred for these traits.
We as hobbyists have a tendency to always assume that "wild stock" will always display the
traits we desire our stock to have, not taking into account the natural diversity in any wild gene pool.


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## gbarnga

football mom said:


> I agree, the "desirable" traits become fixed in a line of animals after being selectively bred for these traits.
> We as hobbyists have a tendency to always assume that "wild stock" will always display the
> traits we desire our stock to have, not taking into account the natural diversity in any wild gene pool.


And, in other wayy, exporter on the field will only choose fish with color patterns of aquarist choicesâ€¦ So already a phenotype selection on the fieldâ€¦


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## dogofwar

Great point!



gbarnga said:


> football mom said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, the "desirable" traits become fixed in a line of animals after being selectively bred for these traits.
> We as hobbyists have a tendency to always assume that "wild stock" will always display the
> traits we desire our stock to have, not taking into account the natural diversity in any wild gene pool.
> 
> 
> 
> And, in other wayy, exporter on the field will only choose fish with color patterns of aquarist choicesâ€¦ So already a phenotype selection on the fieldâ€¦
Click to expand...


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## 6stang9

Just a sad note, my wholesaler has been getting "super red zebra obliquidens". I hope that they are just juicing them, but it scares me that they might be hybreds.


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## football mom

"Just a sad note, my wholesaler has been getting "super red zebra obliquidens". I hope that they are just juicing them, but it scares me that they might be hybreds."

And if they are a hybrid, how would you know, really? Possibly by breeding them to see if the offspring breed true, and by then they are all over the hobby...


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## dogofwar

Wholesalers probably aren't a good source for "pure" Vics or "pure" much of anything. Sadly.



football mom said:


> "Just a sad note, my wholesaler has been getting "super red zebra obliquidens". I hope that they are just juicing them, but it scares me that they might be hybreds."
> 
> And if they are a hybrid, how would you know, really? Possibly by breeding them to see if the offspring breed true, and by then they are all over the hobby...


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## gacichlids

It's really hard to know if you have the right fish if you don't have some kind of guidelines, but then in creating them, we change what really truly exists.

I have straight barred females I got from up north and a male with straight bars on one side and an X near the tail from broken bars. In my first spawn with them, the females were straight barred and the males all had the x near the tail on one side. I have not yet gotten a female with broken bars. Do they exist or is it a male trait? You know as fry, it appears as an X or crossed bars. I've had weak stripes on a female that stop midline or faded, but not the broken barring. Number of stripes seems to vary on both sides.

I really like a totally broken barred male with Fred Flintstone stripes, tiger striping, up from the bottom and down from the top. You never see these anymore but I remember seeing some in the better lfs. I'm breeding for them as well as straight barred for those people that want them. I think I will have a really great looking totally broken barred male soon.


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## football mom

Now that you made me think about it, my 3 males all have a "broken" looking bar near the tail, and the females have much straigter bars.... they haven't spawned yet, but I will definitely be looking for that broken bar on the offspring.


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## deadman

we must keep in mind that water quality and stress also play a part in coloring, 
here is my male 3rd generation {first 2 pics.} followed by the source of his line his great great grandfather so to speak {third picture}.
there is also line breeding where some one breeds out a specific quality to enhance it. id like to see a picture of one of these super red zebras.

also in the female picture notice her bars arent perfect but that trait didnt seem too be passed on too much, like out of every 100 that she produced maybe 8-9 had this trait and it was gender specific.


























this female produced the second female.


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## alanastar

Many Lake Victorian basin cichlids can produce colour mutations. I have witnessed this in this species, usually one male in every other brood of fry.










Deadman the male in your picture i believe is one of these colour mutations. If you have been selecting these mutations over 3 generations they can not be viewed as the norm but as a result of forced selection.

My personal experience has been that they are way down the pecking order in the brood, with slower growth rate. 
I know this sort of selecting is happening in Europe and may be the result of the "super red"

It would be interesting to put a standard male in with your males and see if the females have a preference for breeding..


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## deadman

alan i didnt select him for his coloration actually he was quite small when i seperated the ones i was keeping. his off spring however do not dispaly that dark coloratiion.


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## 6stang9

dogofwar said:


> Wholesalers probably aren't a good source for "pure" Vics or "pure" much of anything. Sadly.
> 
> 
> 
> football mom said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Just a sad note, my wholesaler has been getting "super red zebra obliquidens". I hope that they are just juicing them, but it scares me that they might be hybreds."
> 
> And if they are a hybrid, how would you know, really? Possibly by breeding them to see if the offspring breed true, and by then they are all over the hobby...
Click to expand...

I bought one of the "super reds" from my wholesaler just to see what it would look like, through him in a 135 mixed show tank. Now 2 weeks later his "super red" is gone. I have other "regular" obliq's that have more red than it. I know just one fish won't tell you much, but I believe they are just juiced to appeal to buyers. And dogofwar is correct, most wholesalers are not a good place to get anything "pure" that you want to breed. Mine gets all there fish from Taiwan.


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## deadman

taiwan is a massive farmed fish producer. lots of wholesalers get there stock from there, and so do transhippers that bring stuff to the states. private breeders is the way to go.


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## 6stang9

deadman said:


> taiwan is a massive farmed fish producer. lots of wholesalers get there stock from there, and so do transhippers that bring stuff to the states. private breeders is the way to go.


Thats why I think most of the obliq's you get in stores have been crossed with sp 44's, hence the full body stripes. Some lfs in my area buy from private breeders and have the old school looking ones. That's just my opinion.?


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## dogofwar

I've never understood why many LFS would rather buy fish...with cash...and pay shipping...sight unseen...and frequently get crud...rather than buy from local hobbyists...often for credit...and less than they would pay wholesale...and not pay shipping.

At least a handful around here are enlightened...the rest...not so much.



6stang9 said:


> deadman said:
> 
> 
> 
> taiwan is a massive farmed fish producer. lots of wholesalers get there stock from there, and so do transhippers that bring stuff to the states. private breeders is the way to go.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats why I think most of the obliq's you get in stores have been crossed with sp 44's, hence the full body stripes. Some lfs in my area buy from private breeders and have the old school looking ones. That's just my opinion.?
Click to expand...


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## 6stang9

I dont know for sure, but I would say my wholesaler gets obliqs for about $.39 apiece????


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## dreday

yea shipping is minimal when you find a good farm. you make such a large order that it breaks down to cents per fish, or less. also they may have a merchant acct with ups or pick up at the airport.

LFS just dont want joe smoe to sell them some nice convicts that are sick with ich. or look good as babies and grow into some lack luster traits. not saying local breeders are bad(i am one too) just that it is hard to gain the favor. i have tired many times to sell my fish to the stores here. only one will always take them, but only so many. they wont buy a large group, breeder yes, adult fish yes, and for half of the supposed selling price.

still trying to win over the store closest to me(almost got them) but they dont have much to offer in the way of supplies. store credit would not be as helpful as cash. :thumb:


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## Alistriwen

Interesting read here. I have been keeping A. Latifasciata for over a year now and as Im sure is the same for most folks who have the fish, had many many fry. I got my breeders from two sources and I never really paid much attention to the striping. After reading this I decided to browse some of my pictures of the fish and I came across one picture with two males one with stripes that extend all the way from top to bottom and one with stripes that go only half way. 
Curious, I then went down to the fishroom to look at the fish and couldn't find the fish with the stripes extending only half way. All of the fish had mostly full stripes. What I think it suggests is that the stripes in a given fish are variable given the circumstances. The picture, I believe, was taken not too long after a water change so there wouldn't be any fish waste in my shots and usually these guys get really stressed when I change the water and lose a lot of their red and yellow colouring for an hour or so and it seems their stripes fade also.

When I looked in the tank with 40 or so 2" + juvies I found that there was an even split of full stripes and half stripes it was puzzling. It could be that the grow out tank is bare bottom and the fish are less comfortable with nowhere to hide, I don't know. Another thing I noticed some time ago is that one of my females has a solid black face much like the male in a previous poster's picture. I personally like that trait but it seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

Here's the pic I was referring to. My photography skills aren't very good unfortunately so their colouring doesn't shine through at all but the stripes are clearly visible.


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## alanastar

Hi Alistriwen,
I have 2 males just like yours with the dominant male showing half bars. When he was the only male with many females he had full length bars. I do think as you they come and go with circumstances. I also have fish with beautiful thick dark barring which seems to be popular and some fish from the same brood with uniform broken bars and "Y" bars.

I believe to look for poor quality fish you need to look more closely at the scale definition and fin rays (broken) and general body shape rather than colour and banding which can come and go over time.
Another thing is i haven't seen any hybrids with this fish, so would be interested to view some.

A very good thread :thumb:


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## football mom

I purchased my group of A. latifasciata (3 males, 6 females) about 1 month ago. No spawns yet. I have them in a 55 with some L. caeruleus, but the labs don't harass them. I am thinking about moving the labs, though, to see if that makes a difference.
The dominant male A. latifasciata I have noticed, has varying degrees of red on his body, sometimes quite a lot, sometimes, not so much. The two sub-dominant males will only show a blush of red. 
They are very, very active fish, much more than the labs, and they are always begging for food!


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## ophelia

Did the Vics in Lake Victoria 'mix'? If so, when did they start mixing? I sure know they will in a tank! LOL

Whatever 'desirable' markings make them desirable, I think they are the most beautiful fish in the world. I went from 300 fish to 1 in the last year and the last one standing is a x. Phyotophagus (Christmas Fulu), that I'm sure is not 'desirably' marked. But I love him!


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## alanastar

ophelia said:


> Did the Vics in Lake Victoria 'mix'? If so, when did they start mixing? I sure know they will in a tank! LOL
> 
> Whatever 'desirable' markings make them desirable, I think they are the most beautiful fish in the world. I went from 300 fish to 1 in the last year and the last one standing is a x. Phyotophagus (Christmas Fulu), that I'm sure is not 'desirably' marked. But I love him!


I think they have probably been "mixing" for millions of years :wink: 
I may be wrong here but it is believed the lake was dry (again) 40,000 years ago and would have been repopulated by surrounding bodies of water. We are lucky to witness a time where the species in the lake have radiated to a degree many of them are very closely related.

A. latifasciata is found from lake Kyoga, unsure whether it was ever present in Lake Victoria itself.
:thumb:


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## Alistriwen

Yes, Lake Victoria and satellites produce some of the most brilliantly coloured freshwater fish in the world. It is truly a shame that Lake Victoria (I believe the biggest lake in the world?) has had food fish introduced to it which have decimated the native fish populations. I can only guess at the species, now extinct, that once thrived in the lake. I imagine many were never introduced to the hobby and thus, unlike a latifasciata do not exist abundantly outside of their natural range.


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## Darkside

Lake Baikal is the largest lake in the world it dwarfs the other lakes, I think Tanganyika is second. Area wise Superior is larger than Victoria. That being said I think there are about 50 species in the hobby left over from earlier imports and there are still some fish in the lake.


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## Alistriwen

Hehe, well I looked it up and Lake Baikal is the caspian sea which isn't a freshwater lake. Michigan-Huron is apparently larger than superior which IS larger than Victoria but Victoria is larger than tanganikya hehe.

And yes, many species did survive in the hobby but many of the endemic Victorian species have been extirpated and I imagine some will have been lost to science.


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## Darkside

I hate to reference wikipedia, but lake Baikal isn't a saline body of water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Baikal

It has about as much fresh water as our great lakes combined.

Victoria is very shallow, its smaller than lake Tanganyika. Size is usually measured in volume unless stated otherwise.


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## gacichlids

The stripes fade or "break" as the fish grow too. After two generations of breeding straighter striped females hand picked for me from a very reliable source up north with my more zebra striped male from an old breeder down here, and the females from that breeder are also straight striped generall. On the third generation I got a fully zebra striped female, double XX on both sides. As the fish grows, the X bars break in the middle, forming the zebra striping. I also got more irregular striping, suggesting that it definitely seems to play a factor. I kept this XX female, thinking at first it was a male and I was going to have an awesome male. I could be wrong still, but she's definitely venting as a female.

I love that some breeders still keep this once common fish from way back, even though they fall out of fashion. It means we dont have to get lousy fish. I guess that's where our personal love of fish pays off. A group pix of some of mine:


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