# Decided on EB JD's for the focal point of the new 75g...



## teqvet (Mar 24, 2008)

... and just brainstorming at this point. Wife saw some grown pictures of them and thought they looked absolutely stunning, and seeing how the tank is going in our bedroom... if I can keep her in there any longer than that's just good news all around 

The measurements on the tank are 48"L x 18"W x 20"H. I'm planning on painting the back and sides of the tank with a dark and/or black paint or using a moss wall (if I can reason with myself that it won't be an issue with the filters). Speaking of, I was going to start out with an emperor 400 on the tank until the fish got a bit bigger. Would that suffice for the time being? I have media that is filled with yummy bacteria in our 55g that can be moved over to the 75g to get things jump started.

I was planning on going for a planted tank but haven't gotten in to enough reading yet to make sure they'd be ok with JD's. I know that JD's are carnivorous so I just assumed they would leave the plants alone. My next problem was what other tank mates would 'get along' with the JD's, and by get along with I mean survive. I was reading that loaches are a no go as the JD's get older if they start breeding. Would cory cats be ok as well as some form of plecos? Also, would it be ok to get several juvie EB JD's to start with until I am able to figure out a male/female pair and take the rest back to the LFS?

Wife and I are really stoked about this as it's going to get finished about the same time as we get a new king size bed delivered (which we have been needing for over a year now with 2 young children always trying to pile in with us for late night bedtime stories.

Thanks again as always.


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## teqvet (Mar 24, 2008)

Doing a bit more reading I am seeing that if I pair 2 EB's together then if they were to have fry they fry would basically be sterile/dead fry for some reason? The way to breed them would be to have 1 normal JD and an EB JD if I wanted to keep an EB in the tank and still have EB fry? Any further explanation on this would be stellar.

Our LFS just had a huge shipment of EB JD's come in 2-3 days ago, and I didn't realize they were so 'rare'. They were priced at 6.99 This is Petland we're talking about though, not a mom-n-pop LFS as we only have one of those and he really hasn't a clue on cichlids of any sort... he's mainly a SW guy.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

emperor 400 will be ok for a while i would imagine.

dont do planted with JD's, yes, they are primarily carnivores, but you will be replanting uprooted plants every hour... not worth the effort.

if you like loaches get clowns, very rarely are clowns bothered by cichlids IME, i had a red devil and flowerhorn with my clowns fine, only problem i was worried about is the rate of growth, flowerhorns grow an inch a month, clown loachs an inch a year, so as long as the loaches arent eatable, they will be fine.

plecos are good, but like to eat fish eggs.

starting with multiple juvis is the best way to do it, if you let them pair naturally then they have a better chance of not fighting later in life.

but i do need to add, EBJD's are EXTREMELY hard to keep alive until they hit 5" or so, they are more then just prone to parasites and disease, it is almost inevitable that they end up with one or the other, i have heard that putting a UV light bulb will help a lot with them, though i would be waiting for *Toby* to answer all your questions, he is the JD master of disaster on this forum LOL (hint hint *Toby* )


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

> Doing a bit more reading I am seeing that if I pair 2 EB's together then if they were to have fry they fry would basically be sterile/dead fry for some reason? The way to breed them would be to have 1 normal JD and an EB JD if I wanted to keep an EB in the tank and still have EB fry? Any further explanation on this would be stellar.


this is a quesiton for Toby, all i know is that the fry are very VERY weak. and yes, using a normal dempsey with an EB is the way to go forsure.


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## MacFish (Jan 4, 2006)

teqvet said:


> The way to breed them would be to have 1 normal JD and an EB JD if I wanted to keep an EB in the tank and still have EB fry? Any further explanation on this would be stellar.


Yes, EB x EB result in weak fry that typically all die when they reach free swimming (if they make it that far)
Right now, the only way to breed them is to cross an EB with a regular JD. The resulting fry will all look like regular JD's but will all carry the recessive blue gene. Typically these are known as BGJD. You then breed an EB with a BGJD to get 50% EB, 50% BGJD. Or, breed BGJD x BGJD to get 25% EB, 50% BGJD, 25% JD. It is best to use no inbreeding (or line breeding) when you are trying to breed EBJD's. They are already very inbred and that is one theory as to their weakness.



teqvet said:


> Our LFS just had a huge shipment of EB JD's come in 2-3 days ago, and I didn't realize they were so 'rare'. They were priced at 6.99 This is Petland we're talking about though


$6.99 for EB's is an incredible price. Buy as many as you can! As gage said, they tend to be touch and go until they reach 3"+ so if you want 1 or 2 really nice ones, you are best advised to buy at least 10. Add them in your cycled 75 Gal and as they grow isolate the best ones and sell the rest. You can be sure you will lose a few which is why I say get 10. At $6.99 each, it won't break the bank. Normally EB's go for around $20 - $30 each so buying 10 is not possible for most hobbyists.

Good luck :thumb:


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## teqvet (Mar 24, 2008)

Good deal, I'll go check on them again tomorow tos ee if they are still in stock and if so buy a few and put them in the 29gallon we have until the 75 is up and running.

I need to paint the tank back black as well as either paint this wrought iron stand or find a lumber stand for very cheap  thigns are expensive!!!

Right now possible stocking selections I have looked at are as follow:

Oscar
Clown Loaches
BN Pleco
Cory Cats

That is in no way a stocking list but the few fish that I have read that can prosper well in a tank with a JD. if it comes down to it, I may just have to get 1 JD of whatever variation as the wife likes more than 2 fish in a tank, being that when we get these fish they won't be very big at all.

Suggestions and ideas are always wanted


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## teqvet (Mar 24, 2008)

Blech.. ran by the LFS a bit ago and they had 2 of the 20 something EB JD's left... and the price tag on them were actually 35.99$ not 6.99$ as I had thought I read. I certainly don't want to pay that type of money to petland for EB's less than 2" so going to need to broaden the horizons a bit I think.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

MacFish gave you great input, he really knows his Blues tooâ€¦ consult his post for breeding basics.

I have made several â€œpairsâ€


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## teqvet (Mar 24, 2008)

toby - thanks for the wall of information. Greatly appreciated. I was thinking of just going with Blue X Blue simply because they are absolutely gorgeous fish when they are grown out adults. The wife and I looked at some normal JD's and they look stunning when grown out as well, so that's where our issues lies now. I have plenty of time to decide still as I'm in the process of painting the sides and back of the tank black, and possibly building a stand (or buying warehouse shelving). With the sides and back of the tank painted black, I thought that would accent the color of the blues just that much more.

Substrate is something else I have been going back and forth on as well. I have 3m color quartz in our 55g w/ the mbuna and really love that look, but wasn't sure if I should do it again with JD's or stick with normal sand. I plan on adding driftwood with some java ferns possibly to set it off a bit as well.

I guess I wanted the option there to breed and sell a few if I could but it may not be the best in the long run..if we want to keep loaches as well that is.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Please note these guys are still in the fishroom until I decide where I want to display themâ€¦ so the tank isnâ€™t very pretty, plus Sunday is water change/tank cleaning day at Tobyâ€™s house.

After 67 pics, these are the only three worth sharing (and thatâ€™s why I donâ€™t take new pics often )




























PS - That male is between 7~7.5"


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## teqvet (Mar 24, 2008)

How often do the blue's turn out looking like this:


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

There is a very wide range of what an adult Blue Dempsey will look like, the one you pictured is an amazing looking specimen...

The male in my pair is one I choose not to spawn as I much prefer the darker/deeper Blue with distinct black pattern. Although I don't think I've ever seen one break 8" and keep the distinct dark pattern that I like.

I'll go take a max of 15 pics of my best looking big male (9.5" last time measured)... if one comes out decent I'll post it...

But to answer your question... not many at all, you should expect an average adult male's color to be half way between the one in my pair and the one you posted. The female I have pictured above is only slightly lighter than most of my other females. In my experience, females don't get nearly as pretty as males.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Here is my biggest male:










Now keep in mind all of the pics I took tonight are of fish kept in brightly lit tanks with only breeding caves for cover... so they are all a bit washed out...

Here is the same big Blue when he was in a 125 gal community tank with lots of driftwood:

Under the shadow of floating plants









Directly under the light in the same tank









And also for reference, this is the same male from the Blue x Blue pair when his tank had a piece of driftwood and java moss (moss kept interfearing with the overflow pipe in that tank):










So I guess I need to stop posting pics in Teqvet's thread and make one of my own huh? lol


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## teqvet (Mar 24, 2008)

no no no!! I appreciate it. Honestly there doesn't look like a -whole- lot of difference in your fish when he was in his 'regular' tank and the fish that I see posted. It looks like the fish's color really depends on lighting and it's environment, though I'm sure that isn't entirely correct.

The difference in your guy in the breeding tank and his 'regular' tank are like night and day.. I would not have known it was the same fish.


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## teqvet (Mar 24, 2008)

Ok, wife has said she wants 2 Blue JD's now after seeing more pics. I think your recent ones did her in Toby. Not really wanted I wanted because finding a m/f pair is going to turn out pricey in the long run I am afraid.

That aside, how is this for stocking potential:

2 Blue JD (1m/1f)
1 FM
4-6 yoyo or clown loaches
school of tiger barbs / cherry barbs/ giant danios (1 of the three)

Would this be pushing it for the Blue's? Would I be best off leaving the last option off and using the loaches as my dither fish?


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## MacFish (Jan 4, 2006)

Great shots Toby :thumb:

Your fish are really stunning!



> That aside, how is this for stocking potential:
> 
> 2 Blue JD (1m/1f)
> 1 FM
> ...


I think that is pushing it for a 75 Gal. You would be okay for a while but I think the clown loaches would need to removed once they grew. They get quite large but it takes a long time. 
I'm not too sure on the Yoyo's as I've never kept them.

The Cherry barbs would likely get eaten. I don't think they are quick enough. A small school of giant danios would be okay but you could also go with other smaller tetras. I had a school of Lemon tetras in the past with me EB's. I also had a small school of Serpae tetras with my current EB and they were fine. I think the regular JD I have with him now made short work of them though


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## teqvet (Mar 24, 2008)

Yea, I know the clowns grow to a pretty decent size in time. We'll be moving in 3-4 years at which time I plan on doing a 200+gal tank. Any idea on the growth rate of clowns in that amount of time? If they would get to big for a 75g in that time frame then I'd likely stick with the yoyo's as I know they are tried and true  I have 3 of them in my 29gallon and know they'd love a bigger home with more buddies anyways. The firemouth would work out ok in this case also?


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Thanks Mac  That means a lot coming from someone who knows Blue Dempseys too.

A Quality diet and clean water are a must, but both of these factors have been the same for my fish in both breeding tanks and 'regular' tanks... but beyond that, lighting and colors of the environment have a very heavy impact on them... which is true for most, if not all, Cichlids...



teqvet said:


> That aside, how is this for stocking potential:
> 
> 2 Blue JD (1m/1f)
> 1 FM
> ...


A few thoughts...

Yoyo's should be fine...

In my (limited) experience with Clown Loaches they grow at (what I would consider) typical rates until 4" or so, then grow real slow until full adult size (12"+). The thing with them though, larger ones are highly sought after and carry a nice price tag. These are one of the few fish I'm confident I can sell when they get too big for a set up and then can replace them with smaller ones.

A lone Firemouth with a â€˜pairâ€™ of Blue Dempseys is probably going to get picked on pretty bad once they are adults. Something still on the docile side for Cichlids but larger growing, such as a Severum, may work better. A female (not a male) GT/Saum may also be a good choice, one or two female Convicts maybe... I just haven't had much luck with FM's in tanks with bigger adult Cichlids. A pair of FMs might work but two pairs in a 4â€™ tank is taking a risk with expensive fish (which I wouldn't suggest).

I've kept my adult Blue Dempseys with a wide variety of tankmates, but I do not have much experience growing them out together. I have raised all of my groups of Blues with just Blues or with Dwarf Cichlids (adult Apistos). Hopefully someone else (Mac?) can chime in with some experience there.

As for barbs/danios/tetras/etc, I keep Red Seprae tetras with many of my young Cichlids just to 'fill the void', then when the Cichlids start eating the Tetras I move things around. I personally do not care for any of the 'dithers' that are large enough to potentially keep with Adult Cichlids. In my opinion they distract my eyes from the centerpiece. Just one guys opinion...

I won't push the subject as you've already hear my schpeal, but have you made a decision on the UV -vs- Medication/Diet in regards to protecting yourself from parasitic infection? I guess it's worth hearing more input on your stock list first, but I hope we come back to that


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## teqvet (Mar 24, 2008)

Toby_H said:


> I won't push the subject as you've already hear my schpeal, but have you made a decision on the UV -vs- Medication/Diet in regards to protecting yourself from parasitic infection? I guess it's worth hearing more input on your stock list first, but I hope we come back to that


I'm still trying to read and understand about the diets of the blues. I understand they need to be fed good quality meats while young so they stay nice n fat, and by fat i mean healthy  Mixing in some small pellets/flakes with it to vary the diet a bit. I've never had any issues with fish to warrant using medication so I'm honestly ignorant in that field. Our 55g has been setup for about 6 months now and our 29gallon about a year. There haven't been any illnesses/deaths except for new fish dying after being received due to rough shipment. (lost 4 out of 5 petricolas when I ordered my bunch of msobos and white tops - was literally sick to my stomach at the money that was literally flushed down the drain there. That's probably my biggest concern in getting young Blue JD's. I don't want to spend 100$ on a group of 5 (after shipping charges) and have 4 die due their frailty. Definitely has me nervous and wanting to take every precaution possible.

The UV lights seem to be pretty expensive from what I have looked at. is there a specific model for a 75gallon you'd recommend? Student loan cash comes in about 3 weeks so I'll likely siphon some of that to invest in to the tank. If I can find an economical way to deal with a UV setup then I can see myself setting it up. I'd need a 2nd filter aside from teh 400 emp anyhow. The magnum 350 canister(150$ roughly if I can get it before the sale ends) + the UV sterilizer (8watt) is about $110. So 260ish sound right for those two combined?

I also need to get a light setup as well, and right now I am looking at this setup: Hagen Glo T5 HO Lighting System - Double - 48 . That runs about 160ish. is that light going to be overkill or just right?

Wife's gonna kill me if she ever finds out what this is going to total out to  She's the one who said we just ahd to have the Blue JD's though and I told her if I was doing it, I was doing it right! lol


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

buying locally, $260 may be right... I buy this sort of equipment online and this saves a bundle. A 9W UV and a Mag 350 will be a good bit under $200 online then try to work youself a deal on shipping, it works sometimes.

I have Danner and Turbo Twist UV lights, and I love them both for different reasons. You will probably want the Turbo Twist as I listen to your price concerns, just don't drop it 

I recommend 10 gph per 1W of UV power and 1W of UV power per 10 gal of tank volume... these are both ACTUAL volumes not RATED. Using the micron Cartridge with a blue sock on it will cut your actual flow to at least half of what the filter is rated for. Then when servicing the filter just clean the blue sock and let the micron cartridge mature. The magnetic driven motor will not suffer from being slowed down in this way.

I also agree you will want a second filter for the 75 gal... an Emp 400 will work, I prefer the AC110. There is plenty of info on this site comparing the two so I'll leave that decision up to you.

Hereâ€™s some food for thought - http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... p?t=184003


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Oh, and if your not doing a planted tank do a single strip light... you saw what happened to mine with too much light 

You may even want to use a floating plant, many of which are fine with a single strip light.


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