# High Nitrites!!!! What else should I do??



## Peach (Sep 29, 2008)

Hi i'm new to fishkeeping and I was wondering I have a 20 gal tank currently with a cichlid in it and my tank is still in the cycling process (this is about the 2nd week or so). Recently during testing i've discovered that as my ammonia level is zero my nitrites are quite high! My fish seems to be doing very well, eating, hyper sometimes, curious all the usual that seems to indicate good health. However are high nitrites a usual part of the cycling process?? I'm very nervous! I've done 2 water changes within a few days to try to lower it and i've added some good bacteria that is sold in the fish store to help out but it hasn't lowered yet. Am I supposed to wait it out?? What else should I be doing? The other readings such as PH and hardness are fine. I'm just concerned for the fish! Thank you for any help.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> However are high nitrites a usual part of the cycling process??


Yes



> I'm very nervous! I've done 2 water changes within a few days to try to lower it and i've added some good bacteria that is sold in the fish store to help out but it hasn't lowered yet.


That's what I would do. It may still take a while to drop. Keep up with the water changes. The drop isn't gradual, it just suddenly does so. You might also try using a detox product like Prime or Amquel+.

Watch for signs like fish gasping at the surface that indicate the nitrite levels are having an adverse effect.

Wait it out and don't add fish until it drops. Also go real easy on the feeding until it does. I'd recommend once per 48 hours. Easy to kill them with kindness.


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## Joea (May 25, 2004)

Peach said:


> i've discovered that as my ammonia level is zero my nitrites are quite high!


What's "high"? Do you have a number?


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## Barbie (Feb 13, 2003)

The addition of salt at a teaspoon per gallon will also help their blood carry oxygen with high nitrite levels.

Barbie


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## Peach (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks so much all for your suggestions! I'll keep up the water changes, and that prime stuff sounds good i'll go look for it at the fish store. I've also added the salt as advised. Fish seems ok so far! The actual level was 1.6 mg/L before, but I checked yesterday after a 50% water change and it is now around 0.3 according to those colour tests. I'll keep at it, this cycling business is very nerve racking! Thanks again!


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## projectcam95 (Sep 12, 2008)

2nd week cycling the tank? My 29g is on like 6th or 7th week and its almost done cycling.

I had the ammonia spike, after that came the nitrite spike. Did a 20% water change and after like 6 hours it dropped to a safe level.

Now I'm just going to see if all the results are stable.


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## Peach (Sep 29, 2008)

It's now been 3 weeks cycling, oh gosh it takes more then 6 weeks to fully cycle??! I wasn't aware of any ammonia spike in my tank however the nitrites are now down to zero! yay! 6hrs to level nitrites!! wow mine took a few days!! Anyway good luck with yours projectcam95! Thanks to all for the great advice and comments!


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

do NOT use prime...the fact that it eats ammonia and nitrite sounds great until you break down the facts, if the prime is eating the ammonia and nitrite, the bacteria has nothing to eat, therefore they starve, which in turn causes another spike in ammonia and nitrite because all your bacteria starved to death.


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## projectcam95 (Sep 12, 2008)

As far as i know prime doesn't kill ammonia. It neutralizes it. There for it is still there and the bacteria can still eat it.



> Primeâ„¢ is the complete and concentrated conditioner for both fresh and salt water. Primeâ„¢ removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. *Primeâ„¢ converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form* that is readily removed by the tankâ€™s biofilter. Primeâ„¢ may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Primeâ„¢ detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels. Primeâ„¢ also promotes the production and regeneration of the natural slime coat. Primeâ„¢ is non-acidic and will not impact pH. Primeâ„¢ will not overactivate skimmers. Use at start-up and whenever adding or replacing water.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

gage said:


> do NOT use prime...the fact that it eats ammonia and nitrite sounds great until you break down the facts, if the prime is eating the ammonia and nitrite, the bacteria has nothing to eat, therefore they starve, which in turn causes another spike in ammonia and nitrite because all your bacteria starved to death.


I beg to differ as well. Prime doesn't remove ammonia or nitrite, but converts it to a non-toxic form that is still available to the nitritfying bacteria. So, go ahead and use it. Your bacteria won't starve. Prime doesn't cause ammonia or nitrite spikes.


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## PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn (Dec 26, 2005)

gage said:


> do NOT use prime...the fact that it eats ammonia and nitrite sounds great until you break down the facts, if the prime is eating the ammonia and nitrite, the bacteria has nothing to eat, therefore they starve, which in turn causes another spike in ammonia and nitrite because all your bacteria starved to death.


nonsense. it binds it in a non-toxic form (I would assume as ammonium) in which it poses no risk to the fish, but is easily available to the bacteria.

quite how it effects nitrIte I'm not sure (from what I can see Seachem themselves aren't sure how it works either) however it works in a similar manner of binding it in a non-toxic form that is still available to the bacteria.


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## Peach (Sep 29, 2008)

Thank you so much all for the advice! I appreciate it very much! Well, the levels are good now, but i'll keep the product in mind in case I need it in the future! Sounds very helpful!


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## rjf (Oct 23, 2008)

I trust that you are adding a proprietary aquarium salt, and not table salt to your new tank. My new tanks ususally cycle in about 30 days. It sounds like you're on the right track with the ammonia coming back down at about 2 weeks. Keep in mind that the nitrifying bacteria need oxygen to do their job. Just make sure you're water has plenty of oxygen dissolved in it. I don't believe bubbles do the trick, it happens at the surface. If you have a canister filter make sure your return spray bar is pointed so that it creates a standing wave on the surface. If you're using an air pump, I think it's the bubbles breaking up the surface tension at the surface of the water that allows oxygen exchange. So a wall of bubbles does more good than a column of bubbles.


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## Peach (Sep 29, 2008)

Hi rjf, i'm adding marine salt is that ok? I heard it was the stuff to use. Oh I have an air pump that shoots a column of bubbles. I suppose I need more to create a wall then eh? Unfortunately because of a recent addition of 2 ranchu goldfish I discovered my tank was too small for them when my entire tank was polluted with waste and a nasty smell...i've ranted about this in some other topic too. And my filter got so clogged and gross I had to replace the whole thing and change the water, so I believe I must start the cycle process AGAIN! :x Well, I learned, LOL!


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Oh I have an air pump that shoots a column of bubbles. I suppose I need more to create a wall then eh?


You just need good water circulation and some surface agitation and you don't need any bubbles at 
all to accomplish that, let alone a certain configuration of bubbles.

There's some info here on using salt to help with a nitrite situation. Scroll down to *Salt and nitrite uptake.*

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/salt.shtml

From the site:
_
How much salt should you be adding to counteract nitrite? It is the chloride ion of salt that is effective, 
not the sodium ion. In order to be effective, the chloride-to-nitrite ratio should be five to one. So if 
nitrite tests at 1 ppm, you should add enough salt (as a temporary measure) to give a chloride level 
of 5 ppm. This corresponds to about 8.5 ppm of NaCl (table salt); very little--Ã‚â€" a fifteenth of a 
teaspoon or just a pinch-- in ten gallons. In fact, your water quite likely already carries this much salt, 
without any extra dosing at all; at any rate, your normal partial water changes will dilute out additional 
salt after the crisis has passed._

Yes, table salt. There's also some good info on the fear of using iodized salt in aquariums. If you 
dump in too much, it could be a problem. But using at the recommended rate above, it's not a concern.


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## rjf (Oct 23, 2008)

Right, you don't need bubbles at all. If you do rely on bubbles for getting oxygen dissolve into your water you should just understand that the oxygen isn't getting into your water by virtue of the bubbles themselves but rather the surface agitation they provide. Oxygen exchange takes place at the surface of the tank. None of my 3 tanks have an airpump. I make sure the return from the filter does a good job of stirring up the surface of the tank and that's all that's needed. If you don't have oxygen in your water, not only will your fish suffocate, but your bacteria will stall also. Once when an established tank began to show some nitirite I kicked up the aeration and that fixed the issue.

I say not to use table salt because it's typically idodized and I'm not sure that is a good thing for an aquarium. For years I used sea salt from Aquarium Pharmeceuticals. You know, Doc Wellfish. It's cheap and comes in a half gallon carton like milk does. It worked fine, but now I use Central American Cichlid Salt form Seachem. It comes in liquid form and is formulated specifically for my fish.

When I used sea salt I mixed one tablespoon per 5 gallons of water. With the seachem salt, I just follow the directions on the bottle.


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## Barbie (Feb 13, 2003)

Table salt, iodized or not is quite safe for your aquarium. People that use marine mix salts for buffers are adding a lot more iodine with no ill effects.

Barbie


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## rjf (Oct 23, 2008)

Seachem puts a pretty complete analysis of what is in their Cichlid salt on the bottle and I don't recall seeing iodine listed. I'll check again tonight, I'll be moving about 250 gallons of water and drinking almost as much beer this evening. The marine salt from Aquarium Pharmeceuticals is, as far as I know, NaCl and that's it.

I suppose if you use idodized table salt in your tank, your fish won't get goiters. Now you've got me thinking...a little ground black pepper too, some drawn butter, and maybe some tartar sauce. Nah, I won't even eat Talipia, why would I want to eat Cichlid? :lol:


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Barbie said:


> Table salt, iodized or not is quite safe for your aquarium. People that use marine mix salts for buffers are adding a lot more iodine with no ill effects.
> 
> Barbie


 110% agree.  Kosher salt from the grocery store is also additive free and often around 1/10 the cost of NaCl at a pet shop... the scottsman in my can't spend money on nothing!!!

rjf, you could say that the majority of gas exchange happens at the surface of the water, but when you say that no gas exchange happens from bubble to water, that error could cause someone to dismiss the important points in your reply. Gas exchange occurs from bubble to water AND at the surface of the tank... in many tanks, the majority occurs at the surface, and I know that is what you meant... others might not.

Hope that helps.


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## rjf (Oct 23, 2008)

Number6 said:


> ... the scottsman in my can't spend money on nothing!!!


You know who invented wire? It was two Scots arguing over a penny.

I'm a healthy portion Scots too.

I had read somewhere that no oxygen exchange occurs at the bubble to water interface, I was never quite sure I believed it though. At any rate, I don't like bubbles. I think they detract from viewing and they are noisy. I just make sure my return bar upsets the surface of the water nicely and I'm good.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

LOL, good one!

Agree on the bubbles as well... only in one or two of my tanks do I employ an aerator and it sure isn't for looks.


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## Barbie (Feb 13, 2003)

Iodine is something reef people dose, the corals can use it so actively. It's definitely in reef salt mixes in a pretty good quantity .

Barbie


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## rjf (Oct 23, 2008)

I see. I know pretty much nothing about salt water tanks.

I'm looking at my Seachem Central American Cichlid Salt. It lists its essential elements as magnesium, calcium, sodium, and potassium. It also specifies how many mg/L your water will have of each of these four elements when the salt is used as directed. It also states the product will restore and maintain important trace elements such as iron, manganese, and iodide.

So there _is_ iodide in my Cichlid salt, but only a little. It would be less than the manganese which is specified at 10 ppm in treated water.

BTW - I'm digging my new avatar.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> It also states the product will restore and maintain important trace elements such as iron, manganese, and iodide.


I'd just be cautious of a company telling you what they're selling is important to your fish. Maybe it is, 
maybe it isn't. And maybe you need to add it, and maybe you don't. Seachem is in the business of 
selling additives.


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## rjf (Oct 23, 2008)

I like Seachem. I think they're in Georgia. I've called them with a question and the person I spoke to was very technical. Just about too technical for me, I'm sure the guy was prepared to discuss aquarium chemistry at any level. They've even gone to the trouble of brewing up separate Central American and South American Cichlid Salts. The label on the Cichlid Salt has a little bar graph showing how the 4 primary elements match the level found in the fish's native water. I place some trust in Sea Chem that the stuff is good for my fish.

It's a good point though that some additives you don't need. I'm lucky my water supply is hard, pH 7.8 water and I don't have to do much to it, but I still need additives. I use Amquell Plus, Seachem Cichlid Salt and Cichlid Trace in my water. I used Stress Coat for a number of years on the advice of a LFS. Then one day I asked myself why I was pouring aloe vera in my tanks and I quit using it. Similarly I bought some Boyd's Vita Chem because I thought it might help a fish that had hole-in-the-head. That fish is gone, but do fish need to take vitamins?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If your pH is 7.8 why add cichlid salt and cichlid trace?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> If your pH is 7.8 why add cichlid salt and cichlid trace?


I think there are just two approaches here. Some try to replicate lake water conditions and add the trace 
elements believing that it'll be best for the fish. I'm not one to do that, but couldn't prove there's no 
benefit. I started out with rift lake cichlids with sort of the same approach, but have since moved away 
from that, and I've not seen any detriment. Until someone does some sort of scientific study, hard to be 
dogmatic either way.  Ask the folks selling additives or vitamins and they'll try to convince there's some 
benefit. I've seen too much in the way of marketing claims that are really out in left field to put much 
stock in any of it. If we were dealing with products for human use or consumption, then I think you'd see 
a lot of it either change or be removed from the shelves because they couldn't back up the claims.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'm not saying it's bad to add the stuff, but how do you know? What if you already have some of those trace elements in your water and now you are overdosing?

I am of the school that unless I am sure there is a documented, repeatable positive impact, why would I spend the time and money? Just my two cents. :thumb:


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## PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn (Dec 26, 2005)

DJRansome said:


> If your pH is 7.8 why add cichlid salt and cichlid trace?


have to agree, thats my viewpoint. and why I always ask for the water parameters out the tap.

if the waters 7.8 and stable then you don't really need to play with it, however you do also need to know your GH and KH as well.

for me the water comes out the tap at pH 7, and almost no GH or KH, and as such, for my Malawi's and CA's I buffer with Epsom salts and Bicarb. as for trace elements, I'm not swung there, a good diet ought to supply a lot of those trace elements.


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## rjf (Oct 23, 2008)

This has me thinking. I'm pretty sure I can get a lot of info about my water supply from my city hall. I've seen the report in the past and it lists trace elements that are in the water.


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