# frustrated with foai (pics)



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

It has been 6 months since I bought 4 Cyathopharynx Foai "Cape Kachese" adults. I set up a, mostly open with one divide located about 1/3rd accomplished with plants and three river rocks, 165 gallon 6' with a 55 gallon sump that moves about 900-1000 gph after head, dim spot lighting etc. I added 15 or so Mpulungu dwarf cyps and the foai. I also purchased 12 juvi Cyathopharynx fry from a local source, my goal being to pull females from the juvi group once I can sex them so I can hopefully end up with 2m and at least 6 females if not more. Don't worry I'm not interested in keeping any of their fry since the local source said that his fry were C. Furcifer "Nyanza-Lac" but I desperately want them to breed, dig bowers etc... If I ever did keep fry they'd be to replenish my own group but that seems far off anyway.

SO, 6 months later I have added 4 of the juvis which I suspected would turn out to be female to the main tank and the other 8 juvis remain in the 80 gallon grow out. I have posted pics of what I suspect is a male from the adult group and fellow forum members agreed that he was, however he has yet to do anything resembling male behavior.

He is 5" at least and he lacks long ventrals, as do the others although his are a bit longer, he has not even the beginning of a lyre tail and, aside from some fairly obvious yet still silver marbling pattern on his back he is just another silver fish! He does not dig nor do the others.

Meanwhile in the grow out tank at least two of what I'm positive are males are defending each side of the tank and, though they are not yet digging, they are turning blue with Yellow and black fins!!

My problem is that, with all due respect to the Nyanza lac variant I was very much hoping to see th Kachese Foai in full dress. They were adults when I bought them as the add from Bluechip said "Adults 4" and breeding"... They are not wild so I guess I just didn't expect their settle in period to go 6 months!

I have a couple of concerns that may be causing them not to breed. #1 the cyps are aggressive, they're dwarves but they are claiming their territories aggressively toward the Foai. In the photo of the whole setup you can see the left 1/3rd of the tank which is open. I set this up to be one of to bower areas but one of the blue tailed cyps won't allow any other fish in that entire area most of the time. You can see poop on the sand on the left and none on the right because the cyp male doesn't allow the foai to sift through that area for longer than 3 seconds or so.

#2 Perhaps I have 3 males and 1 female? If that is the case will they not color up or dig because there aren't enough mature females?

Can these guys be vented accurately/easily? I'd risk scaring the **** out of them to photo their vents just for the peace of mind of knowing that it has something to do with the setup or tank mates.

Should I remove the cyps? There is a pair of Brevis right in the middle of the tank but they don't bother anyone.

It's so frustrating looking on an image search or on youtube at all these spawning Cyathopharynx vids with males colored up with bowers that are MUCH smaller than my so called male/s! It's also very frustrating that the juvis are coloring up in the tank across the fish room which is a four foot tank !! Why will they color up in a less than ideal 4' setup but not in the big tank which has been meticulously designed for them! WHY!!!

Here are some pics I just took today of all four adults. The largest is 5" give or take a mm. He is the one I was told was male in other posts. When I ordered them I ordered 2 males and 2 females, I'm still hoping that's what I got but if they're NEVER going to color up and dig then what's the point anyway! I'm almost ready to hang it up with these guys but I've got so much invested in them.

The so called male... This pic best describes how he truly looks all the time although if I snap one at a certain angle he looks a lot greener. Is he truly a male? To me his ventral fins look too short for him to be at his size?









Here is what I thought was the second male. he got an infection from an eye injury (I had Lace rock in the tank for a month or two after I got them... I didn't realize how much they run into things so I replaced the lace with round river rock and much less of it.) which led to pretty severe popeye about 4 months ago. He has since recovered and was in a hospital tank for 3 months getting treated with everything under the sun until I realized his eyes were not going to go back to normal, incidentally one of his eyes appears to be permanently swollen and I believe he is blind in one of his eyes because when you look straight into it it reflect red like camera redeye or something. He is also a different basic color than the others although he wasn't when I got him. ??? . He has been a shade of gold since I moved him back from hospital a month ago.??









Here is one of the 2 smallest ones and what, if I got what I ordered, should be 1 of 2 females. That is if the other two are males? One of the two smaller ones (They're smaller but they are definitely adult size at 3.75-4") has a bit more color, perhaps a bit darker fins and a few reflective blue/green scales but the only one that has anything resembling an obvious amount of color is the big one in the first pic. This pic is of the "female" with more color. She is also a bit grumpier than the other small one who is basically docile and non-confrontational... So is the Golden one in the pic above now that I think of it.









Here is the other small one who is all kinds of plain and I would be very surprised if she was not female. She never chases anybody and just scoots around sifting sand.









Here is how the tank is setup









I think my next fish room purchase is going to be a punching bag.


----------



## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

The Cyps could be an issue, but then again they are still small at 5". Keep in mind, this is a 10" fish. The colour should come soon, but that it hasn't yet would be my biggest concern. The males ventrals haven't even fully grown yet.


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

What blows my mind is that they were advertised as "breeding"! surely a giant fish farm like Bluechip was not providing the accommodations they now have?

Do you think he is in fact male? Can you visually sex the others? I would first like to know if I got what I paid for and, second, I would like them to tell me what I must do to get them digging and breeding!

Here are more pics, maybe they'll help you guys help me? TIA Anyway 

The big alleged male. "He" has recently started chasing the others if they sift to close to him. He doesn't pursue but for the longest time he was getting bullied a bit by the others (It's pretty wussy bullying if you compare to pretty much any other cichlid but they were just taking little runs at him here and there), he seems to have become the boss as gentle of one as he may be.









If he looked like he does in this pic, taken shortly after I got him when I still had the lace rock in there, I'd only complain a little but it's a camera trick, he is never that green to the naked eye although his fins have been going dark the last couple of months when he eats. The one on the left is what I thought was female but am more and more thinking she is a he. She was the most aggressive of the others but now the big one (middle) is most aggressive, though still not very, and then "She" (Left) is, while the other two, the one on the right and the other "gold" colored one are quite docile and seem to be peaceful. All of them seem to be relaxed, they eat well they swim all over and seem to be quite comfortable so I don't know what gives.









A female? I think so... I believe this is the calm silver little one.









this is for sure the docile one. The gold one is too but this is the little silver one with no marbling or dark fins at all.









However they all look like total **** compared to what I was paying all that money for, LIKE this!








I know it's probably hard to tell but this fish doesn't look any bigger than my so called male/s. So what gives? Is it the size of the mature colony or will they color up regardless of how many breeding females are present? Should I dump the other eight sub-adult juvis from the growout in there and see what happens? FYI, according to the yellow on the Furcifer's fins in the grow out tank there are 5 males and 3 females (Which sucks because I don't want any of the males, however, if the foai don't get their act together I may sell them and just ride with the Furcifers!)

OYYY! :-?


----------



## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> #1 the cyps are aggressive, they're dwarves but they are claiming their territories aggressively toward the Foai. In the photo of the whole setup you can see the left 1/3rd of the tank which is open. I set this up to be one of to bower areas but one of the blue tailed cyps won't allow any other fish in that entire area most of the time. You can see poop on the sand on the left and none on the right because the cyp male doesn't allow the foai to sift through that area for longer than 3 seconds or so.


I'd get the cyps out. The foai need to be dominant IME and not bullied by anything else. My male didn't color up until he started building pits. If yours aren't building pits, then it may be due to the cyps. Mine were building pits at under 5".



> #2 Perhaps I have 3 males and 1 female? If that is the case will they not color up or dig because there aren't enough mature females?


My m/f were very different in size. You could very well have 3m/1f. In the pic where the male is showing some green and there are two others same size, with one smaller seems to indicate that to me. But, mine still dug pits and colored up with no females present. They don't wait in the wild until a female wanders by to start thinking about pit building and showing off. I wouldn't go by aggression level alone. My sub males could be very docile. If the male's fins are coloring up, that's a good indicator.

A tank with all males video

Everything but the smallest seen at the end of the video were males. I ended up with 8m/3f. I had one that was in between the males and females in size that also turned out to be male.

So, I think you have males there that just need to be allowed to dominate the tank and be given more time.


----------



## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Bluechip would definately have had them on their own....


----------



## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

I agree with Tim, remove the cyps. I had my Furcifers for almost two years, it wasn't until I replaced the cyps with cyp. micro, that they coloured up and started digging. I would actually reccomend cyp. Pavo. I think the one with the bad eye is a female because the anal fin is rounded and not elongated as it would be in the males. I also tend to think that there may be three males. from that photo, I can definately see green scales on three of the fish. Be carefull mixing these guys up, once you mix in the female furcifers there is no way of telling them apart, making them unselleable in the future. Try to post more pics of the anal fins.


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

Fogelhund said:


> Bluechip would definately have had them on their own....


What do you mean? Like separated by sex for sure? or in breeding groups on their own?

Anybody have an opinion on why one of them is gold?


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

noddy said:


> I agree with Tim, remove the cyps. I had my Furcifers for almost two years, it wasn't until I replaced the cyps with cyp. micro, that they coloured up and started digging. I would actually reccomend cyp. Pavo. I think the one with the bad eye is a female because the anal fin is rounded and not elongated as it would be in the males. I also tend to think that there may be three males. from that photo, I can definately see green scales on three of the fish. Be carefull mixing these guys up, once you mix in the female furcifers there is no way of telling them apart, making them unselleable in the future. Try to post more pics of the anal fins.


I'm not looking to sell any of them unless I sell the whole group out of frustration LOL. But it'll be some time before I can't tell them apart as the adult foai are easily 3 times bigger than the juvi fry


----------



## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

Welcome to the world of Cyathopharynx.You have to have 10 times the patience than any other average cichlid.My wild adult furcifer males only dig pits and fire up impressive color when a female is within a week of wanting to breed.I think having more females at breeding size will encourage the males to color up. In the wild there is always a female ready to breed close by to give the males a reason to use energy.

I agree with all in getting rid of the C.leptosoma and getting a much more laid back fish such as Paracyprichromis or C.micro.My group would not color up at all when I had a group of Kitumba cyps in the tank.

Also when it comes to breeding Cyathos,they do not breed regularly like a clock.My group bred like crazy for a couple months and now there has been no breeding activity for about 4-5 months.

This is why I think not many aquarist breed Cyathos often b/c they get rid of their group too early or when the breeding stops for a long period.


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

I wouldn't really mind if he was silver a lot of the time as long as he had some impressive fins. I have seen a big Foai colored down before but his lyre tail and ventrals made up for it kind of.

I'll pull the cyps and see what happens :?

How long after, or how soon after could they begin to show color etc.?

I hear mixed info between some of these replies versus other posts of mine... Some say that many females have green scales while this one says they must be female because they reflect green. Not sure what to think there but I will say that you can't see any reflective scales on the 3 smaller ones when you're not shooting a camera at them.

I do suspect that one of the small silver ones is male because it's fins also go a bit dark during feeding like the big one's fins do.

So that makes 2m/2fm if the golden one is female. Maybe I'll write bluechip and ask how they determined wether they were female or not.


----------



## markw (Feb 20, 2004)

BioG said:


> I wouldn't really mind if he was silver a lot of the time as long as he had some impressive fins. I have seen a big Foai colored down before but his lyre tail and ventrals made up for it kind of.
> 
> I'll pull the cyps and see what happens :?
> 
> ...


I'm sure Chip would have vented them to sex them. I just would also add that you really have to be patient with these guys. I have bred them for years along with Cyath. furcifers and you will find that they will colour when they want to, and not before. But when they do, it is spectacular, and with my experience, it just keeps going! Not to dispute others with regard to the presence of the cyps, but I have had luck with keeping them together while they breed. I kept, a colony of cyp. kekeses with the foai, and microlepidotus kirizas with the furcifers. When the male builds his nest, nobody gets near it...(not even me, when I wanted to move a rock!)
But you'll find what works best for you and just have fun trying. If it was easy, it wouldn't be any fun!


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

Thanks mark, you're post had a nice blend of encouragement plus some realistic info :lol: All I needed to keep plugging along. I think I will still remove the cyps and see what gives, I don't like cyps, because I see them as an auxiliary fish and not a center piece fish, pushing non-conspecific tankmates around.

I may seriously add a dozen Velvet Red Swordtails to the mix if I can find them (I will qt them for a long time since they are so prone to disease)


----------



## S4surf (Oct 18, 2006)

Hey BioG,

I have not had these in a long time but have bred them twice in a 240. In my experience kitumba cyp's did not bother them but they were in 8ft of water.

I think you are close to the top of the hill where color is concerned. these fish as Fogulhund stated get to 10" and at 5" are still quite young. The male you pictured is right on the cusp in my opinion and you should see him struting his stuff soon. They are magnificent once they get there, but many people move on before they have a chance to see it. The original trio I had went to 6" before they started but the end result was truely worth waiting for. the male would dig a pit in the 240 from front to back (24" round) and dart across the tank like a tuna 

The only true way to sex them is venting, however if their ventral fins extend into the start/middle of their anal fin they are usually male. don't judge their sex by the shimmer in their flanks because the females can show this quality just not as vibrant.

Patience, patience 
Steve


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

Thanks! I noticed in the pics I posted above that the pretty male in the very last photo (Not Mine!) has a more pointed nose than do any of mine. Is this a sex indicator or just a mturity thing.

Also, I hear what everyone's saying about patience and size but I have furcifer growing out in an 80 gallon across the fish room which are barely 3.5 inches and they are beginning to color up! Not brillliant but enough to see yellow in their fins and some very aggressive behavior etc. What gives there?

Are Foai harder to keep comfortable than Furcifer? They can't be right? They are physiologically the same fish but were labeled differently because they exist, in some cases, breeding side by side without hybridizing right?


----------



## S4surf (Oct 18, 2006)

I have only kept furcifer's but I agree with your conclusion.

The ones in the 80 could just be more comfortable for whatever reason, or just the characteristics of that strain/species. They can get aggressive, in fact some of the Ophthalmotilapia ventralis family are downright nasty. Maybe combining them into the big tank or swapping out the bigger ones will help?

I think it is just the angle the camera is at and the fish is raising its head towards the lense. I could be wrong because some Nasuta's sure have a snoze :lol:

Steve


----------



## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

I wonder if the tank being so open and bare has anything to do with their comfort level. Perhaps a couple of big caves for them to hide in, with some large flat slate... say 14-18" might increase their comfort level. Just make sure there is no sharp edges on such rocks.


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

Interesting... That is perhaps the only difference between the big tank and the 4' one with the furcifer in it, more rocks. The furcifer grow out tank is mainly dedicated to some calvus and so there are many more places for them to seek refuge.

I also removed the cyps (No easy task in a 6' foot tank, I think I'll use a hook next time !!) so we'll see if I can get these guys going.

I feed mainly NLS cichlid formula but I have been supplementing frozen brine about 4 times weekly. I feed 3 times daily enough for them to eat in about 1 minute. I'm hoping this is a proper regiment to condition them or perhaps grow them to maturity?

My water parameters are all top notch so, other than the rocks I'm not sure what else I can do? I have added more plants (Mostly very big, non-resting aponogetons and some shorter vals) which are flourishing and filling things out. They seem to appreciate hiding in them from time to time.

I also picked up some Red velvet sword tails which are in qt where I will collect their young and form a school for Foai dithers if I can stomach the fact that they are not tanganyikans :lol:


----------



## Jolly cichlids (Jun 19, 2009)

My advice it get rid of that black sand, it is not doing your foai justice. I've always had white aragonite and my foai/furcifer color up from 2.5 inches and up. As well keep the middle open stack the rocks to the sides like your doing, for some reason my foai always make bowers on the sides by the glass. I'm guessing they feel they can defend the territory easier this way just a natural aquarium instinct.


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

Really? I had heard that dark sand would bring out their colors more! :-? It stands to reason because it does so with virtually every other cichlid I can think of...  :roll:


----------



## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I would go with light sand also. I've never seen them with black sand and I don't think it has any effect on how much the fish colors up. It's all about showing for the females.

There are certain species that like to build their bowers up against or on top of rocks. I don't think it's common to find them out in the middle of a strictly sandy area. I found a couple of small rock piles were often used by them. They'd build up against them.

My furcifer colored up and built bowers at a smaller size than what you have.


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

The cyps have been gone for a few days and there's no real difference. I will try scaping a bit (Adding a big flat rock for him to build something on in the open area?)

The black sand isn't hurting anything is it? DOes the color of the sand freak them out or something causing them not to build or color?


----------



## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

It took 2 months after removing my Jumbo Kitumba cyps before my wild furcifer Kigoma to color up and start breeding after having them a full year and they were 6 inch + fish.Mine seem to be seasonal breeders as they bred like crazy from Winter to early Spring and stopped. Now the male is coloring up and making a bower which is sure sign that a female is close to being ready.

As to fin extensions,they keep growing longer with age, once the male is 8 inch + that is when they are quite impressive.


----------



## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> The black sand isn't hurting anything is it? DOes the color of the sand freak them out or something causing them not to build or color?


No, I just think they'll show better. Personal prefereence.

I'd add the rock and give them more time.

I went back and found an old video of my males digging pits while they were still smaller than yours. Both had built them against rocks.


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

prov356 said:


> > The black sand isn't hurting anything is it? DOes the color of the sand freak them out or something causing them not to build or color?
> 
> 
> No, I just think they'll show better. Personal prefereence.
> ...


I did the same. It seemed, from what I saw on youtube that the rock was basically creating a corner effect in at least 2 corners... Oy :roll: It'd be quicker to paint him blue! I think my wife spent less time designing our nursery for our firstborn than I have for this Cyathopharynx project! :lol:


----------



## Cooder (Jul 19, 2011)

So could you keep adult breeding furcifer or foai in a 4x2x2?

just wondereing for a planned setup, if not i might go some E sp Kilesa. or some melanogenys. furcifers look really nice in the photos *** seen, but probably not the best choice for me...very expensive over here in Australia and hard to find....


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

Holy Cow!!

I swapped the sand out for some natural sand and Wellah! all of the sudden one of the small sub-adults (3"+) colored right up. I mean while the tank was still cloudy from the sand transfer!

The same little guy is slightly protecting an area as I right this and looks as though he's waiting for plans on how to build a bower.

Not only did the little guy color up but for some reason, they all have become blatantly easy to sex in that all the females went as silver as salmon and the males went equally as silver but with black fins!

Anyway it looks like I've got 3 males and 8 females. I doubt the little guy will be able to hold his ground long being as the next biggest male is 2" bigger than he.

I can't believe the sand made any difference. I'll be eating humble pie all week if anyone wants some!  :thumb:


----------



## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Glad you are getting somewhere with them finally. Hopefully in a few weeks/months, you'll be happy you waited, and share some pictures of us how they look.


----------



## pomi (Oct 13, 2009)

Very interesting story to read, as I have Foai on my wishlist.

I'm glad you found the solution to their coloring.


----------



## Jolly cichlids (Jun 19, 2009)

Good job BioG :dancing: , I've been doing foai for about 15 years on and off and Foai/furcifer are my favorite cichlids to watch breed. Hopefully now the breeding comes next :thumb: .


----------



## hbbyhorse (Oct 15, 2010)

Well, after reading this thread, I now know that I need to move the Tret's out of my big tank and give it over to the ruzibas, they are about 3" and I've seen no color at all :-(
great information, thank you


----------



## OzDreamer (Jun 23, 2010)

I don't know enough about foai to have given you advice, so I've kept quiet until now. However, with my experience with lighter fish, especially Tanganyikan cichlids like Julidochromis, the darker substrates do influence the color of the fish. I had Jul. dickfeldi over black Colorquartz with a black background, and they darkened up a lot. Just a few hours after placing them over pool filter sand, they lightened up immensely.

The bolder colored fish, like Yellow Labs, look much better over darker substrates and against darker backgrounds. The Tanganyikans with their subtler colors look much better over lighter substrates.

I'm glad to hear that your foai have colored for you. I'd love to see some photos of them if you can share some with us.

Christopher


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

OzDreamer said:


> I don't know enough about foai to have given you advice, so I've kept quiet until now. However, with my experience with lighter fish, especially Tanganyikan cichlids like Julidochromis, the darker substrates do influence the color of the fish. I had Jul. dickfeldi over black Colorquartz with a black background, and they darkened up a lot. Just a few hours after placing them over pool filter sand, they lightened up immensely.
> 
> The bolder colored fish, like Yellow Labs, look much better over darker substrates and against darker backgrounds. The Tanganyikans with their subtler colors look much better over lighter substrates.
> 
> ...


That was actually my logic going into the black sand idea as I use black sand to bring out the brilliant dark colors in my Black Calvus setups and light sand in my white Calvus setups because White Calvus over black sand would negate some of their more brilliant coloring as they try to blend in,

However the opposite happened in this case with the Foai coloring up, more every day!, and beginning to divide territories with the lighter sand. They are kind of showing the best of both worlds with the females being a quite pleasing brilliant silver and the males with very dark fins all the time occasionally looking a bit green (Hoping the Big Green will come soon). Interesting.

As of now. The two malES have staked out each far side of the aquarium and are defending their respective areas vigorously. However, "two males" may have been a misnomer because ,of the two who seem to be coloring up, neither of them are the big one who seemed to show the most color since I got them and thus I assume I have three males for an overall ratio of 3m/6fm but, as these fish have so elequently shown me, I could be wrong :roll:


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

the "big one" as I called it showed the most green in photos but at 5"+ with his ventrals yet undeveloped I'm beginning to wonder if he is a she? He/she sure acts like a female.

Plus he/she is much bigger than the other three yet he/she doesn't stand his/her ground at all when the males pursue. Is this an indicator that the big one might be female?

I know I hastily posted that I could see clearly between the sexes a few days ago but perhaps I was just so excited that any progress had been made with my ongoing foai project.


----------



## sapir7 (Apr 21, 2010)

The big one you posted is definitely a male, the female ventral fins don't get that long and I never seen marbleing on a female foai before. Just give him time, if not your other two seem like they're becoming more dominant and will show some nice color. Good luck tho man, I'm having some problems with my Sibwesa too now that I got micros in the tank lol.


----------



## swk (Mar 16, 2010)

glad they're coming around for you. Kachese wasn't my first choice, but I couldn't pass up the deal that was out there. Sibwesa have been my dream featherfin for many years, but these kachese are nice for the time being


----------



## S4surf (Oct 18, 2006)

It sounds like it was worth the effort to change out the sand BioG 

You are in for a treat once these fish get comfy which does not seem to be far off. I bet you have not seen any fish thats this fast in one of your tanks.... Like I said before, the pectoral fins on a female will always be less than half way down their anal fin but they can have a shimmer of greens/blues in their flanks. If your not sure of sex please post a picture and we will do our best to help. Even having three males should not be a problem in that tank space.

Happy New Year,
Steve


----------



## punman (Oct 24, 2003)

I had juvenile cyps and Foai Sibwesa in a 180 gallon. They matured and both fish were breeding in there with no problem. They got along fine.


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

I don't have any problems with this setup now but I do have, perhaps, one last question. ok, a couple of questions.

#1- My biggest foai, a 5"+ (Male?) is not colored up at all though he does seem to be a male with yellow tips on longer ventrals (Though not much longer than the females) and some somewhat obvious marbling (Though the marbling is colorless now) on his side. Of the four adult foai only one is an obvious female as she is bright silver (Quite pretty like a coho salmon really). The "Gold One" in the pics guards the right side of the tank and has black fins the majority of the time which means he's male right? The one I have described in other posts as "The second female" or "The aggressive female" is actually a male as he is building a small bower (Only 6-8" is this normal?) on the left side and defending his territory.

My question is this; Is it normal/possible for two, clearly smaller, male foai to submit a much larger, healthy (And in the case of " The Gold One" healthier; the gold one had a serious case of popeye 6 months ago and he still seems to have vision but one of his eyes is permanantly swollen and reflects red in the pupil like redeye in a camera) or is it usually/always the larger, healthier male that wins out?

My big "male" doesn't ever even put up a fight and very much behaves like a female. I also don't think I could tell the difference between the big one and the female if it weren't for the fact that she is bright silver and he is plain silver with some patterning differences, I would say the ventral fins are not yet obvious enough to sex from that.

#2 Once Cyathopharynx build bowers etc. would it be advisable to return my cyps to the setup? Are foai easily chased off of their bowers once they're established?

#3 I am thinking that I will definitely have to get rid of one of the males (Which is a bummer since I originally ordered the adults as 2m/2fm and when shipping is $75 it stings when you don't get what you paid for but I'm sure it's a common mistake with this species.) Is this accurate or will one of the extra males just stay colored down and be otherwise content/healthy?

Here are some shots of what I hope s the final setup. I replaced the old plants with some darker ones that have to grow out to take up some height and I'm hoping, once that's done, they won't be after each other so much.

Thanks again everyone for holding my hand throughout this project!:clapclap:










Here's "The Gold One" with fat eyes. He's always got a golden hue vs. the others and normally has black fins with blue streaks in them but I think the cam freaked them out a bit. They're VERY skittish! They don't seem to even like the main fish room light on as they hide and color down every time I turn it on. Probably because it illuminates me on the other side of the glass. Could I be that ugly? He defends the right side of the tank but he hasn't built anything yet?









This one is the one which I'm pretty certain is female:









The fat eyed gold one and the female:









The "Big male" which is a good inch+ bigger than everyone else but doesn't fight back or color up. Also, the camera is lying so much in this photo as you can't see any green in him unless you flash a pic at him.









I have also noticed that most of the pics of adult male foai I have seen seem to feature males which have a slightly more pointed nose than mine, Am I seeing things there?

Anyway thanks again and chime in! All thoughts/suggestions are welcome


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

Also:

To reiterate my #1 question, and add to it, will the larger, healthier male likely color up and take a territory from the smaller male eventually?

I ask because the bigger one is clearly the more attractive fish due to the fact that the gold one has the weird eye.

I'd rather the ugly one be the outcast so I'm wondering if the big one just needs time to dominate or if this is the pecking order until I intervene?


----------



## micr0 (Dec 27, 2010)

I had 2m 1f foai Kabogo blue in a 125 gallon (originally had a bigger group but that's a different story). My thoughts at the time were that a second male would keep my big male on his toes and displaying more, as well as disperse the aggression towards the female. Well, while I was a away at school the prefilter on my powerhead fell off and my subdominant male was sadly sucked into it and killed.

I had considered this a tragedy, but to my surprise, once the subdom was gone my bigger male immediately colored up to previously unseen levels. He built an enormous bower and the pair has been breeding ever since. :thumb:

Just my 2 cents...but you might consider removing the other male and seeing if that accelerates your dominant male into breeding condition.


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

I have definitely been considering that but it's the subdominant male that I want to color up since he is bigger and better looking (His eyes are normal  8) )

I keep you all posted


----------



## S4surf (Oct 18, 2006)

Just let them be until they grow a few inches...I found that when I had three males two stayed colored and the third was at female levels.

From the picture you show of the gold one with the bad eye, she's a nice girl  but I believe a different strain then the others. I think you said you have two different types but I can't remember which ones.

I would also put back the cyp's but that is just me. I'd rather enjoy the whole setup and the fucifer's are strong enough to breed when their ready. The wait is worth the time spent once they mature.

The tank looks good BTW

Steve


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

The nice "girl" is definitely a boy although it's tough to tell from the photos as he is colored down because of the camera. He was actually the first to get the black fins and very aggressively defends the far right of the tank. Earlier today I saw him flashing some green around.

I did have two strains at one point but I thought better of it, bit the the bullett and ordered more kachese so they are all kachese at this point. The "Nyanza Lac" Furcifers are growing up in a 55 elsewhere in the room and I'll likely sell them off if I can't sneak another big tank under my wife's nose 

I think he has the gold hue from the gamut of meds I put him through when his eye injury/swelling would not go away. He seems and acts healthy but the eyes seem to get bigger and smaller all the time never returning to their normal size :-?

He went through about 3 months of meds. I can't be sure if or which one of them turned him gold but he wasn't that color before the incident.

Oddly the eye injury happened originally because he scraped his eye on the lace rock I had in there at the time while swimming away from the big male who was harassing him quite a bit. Now the tables have turned for sure! :thumb:


----------



## S4surf (Oct 18, 2006)

Yea, from the picture "she"  had short fins but the color definitely threw me off..especiallly for a female. what you are seeing makes more sense.

Post up some more pics when they mature

Steve


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

I removed the big eyed gold one (Couldn't help myself) and, to my surprise, the other three adults colored up! :-? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :-? :x

2 things I find upsetting as a consumer: Drive thru employees who screw up the simplest job on earth and getting my fish order wrong!

I know most guys guarantee their fish but no one that I know of promises to reimburse shipping costs if they screw up and shipping is $75! So giving me $50 in free females doesn't really cut it when I'm punished @ $75 for their screw up!

I was already a bit irritated that 3 out of 4 of them were coloring up but considering that this whole 6 month long saga of changing things around, swapping sand, moving cyps etc. etc., may have been due to the fact that there wasn't a single breeding aged female present!! That's upsetting.

I ordered 2m/2fm of "breeding" 4" Cyathopharynx Foai "Kachese" and got 4 boys and thus have 2 fish I need to get rid of which is a difficult task in and of itself because this is a rare fish in the hobby for obvious reasons.

I know that with Cyathopharynx nothing is for sure but I ordered "breeding" Foai so I'm thinking I have cause for complaint. Plus, I sent two emails for reassurance that I wanted 2m/2fm so... Anyway, I guess I'll update this thread in a year or so when I finally get a decent ratio going! :roll:

It's a shame, all this has built a certain resentment in me toward this species when they used to be my dream fish.


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

So I'm down to 3m/and 5 maturing fm (I hope) and my question is this.

Is what will likely end up to be 2m/4-5fm enough for Cyathopharynx to ever settle in properly? Will they harass the females to death?

I'm keeping them in what better be an ideal setup (Although I really think an 8 foot tank would be so great to watch with these guys the way they swim) @ 6', 165 gallons, 55 gallon sump, Play sand, 1000 gph return (after head) aimed right at one another to slow current, strong spot lights directly over plants, a few rocks for territory division and plants to compliment the divide.

The only Tank mates are a trio of Black Pec Calvus. Do Cyanostictus do well with Foai? How about CHalinochromis?

Anyone who has seen my other extensive foai threads may recall that I have a group of 12-15 cyps (5m/?fm) which I removed thinking that their breeding harassment was bothering the foai as the male cyps wouldn't allow the foai to sand sift or occupy the territories where they could build bowers etc. Anyway I had 4 male Foai which I thought were 2m/2fm (Because I bought them that way) and a bunch of immature juvis and I think this is why they wouldn't color up?

They have now colored up and one of them half heartedly built a little bower to the left. I removed one male because their was too much aggression (I thought they were going to chase each other out of the tank!- I selected the least attractive male to remove) and now have 3 males to 5 sub-adult females (I think). Since then the bower building stopped but the larger of the three males has gained a bit of aggression (It's general aggression though he's not actively chasing fish from a set territory like the other one does.) but he stays colored up most of the time. What's up with that? Is it because the juvis aren't mature yet?

Would it be detrimental to re-inro the cyps now or should I wait until they build sure bowers? It's a bit of an empty tank to look at as it is now but I don't want to stifle the foai. On the other hand it could be some time before the hopeful females actually interest themselves in spawning? They seem to grow and mature at the same rate as a dang calvus and I'm not so sure I want to look at this barren tank for a year before I intro my cyps back.

TIA and I'm sure I'll have more ?'s soon A proper cyathopharynx setup has always been a dream project of mine so I'm being incredibly obsessive about it so thanks for all your input and patience.


----------



## Furcifer158 (Feb 16, 2008)

I would just keep them by themselves. They really do do the best in this set up. When I grow them up I keep them in tropheus tanks. I have found that it makes them a bit less skiddish living with the craziness of a tropheus tank, so when there older and I get into a tank by themselves they become the dominate fish in the tank and color up fast. Its takes about a year to really grow them out from say a 2" fry to 4 to 5 inch. They do grow slow, almost as slow as alto's

The Best thing you can do is just leave the tank alone if you want them to get comfortable. The more you change in the tank the longer it will take for the to color up and breed.

They do fine in a 6' tank for a long time, few years, but I agree the bigger the better on the tank size. Mine will be going into there 220 7' tank here in the next few months.


----------



## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

Furcifer158 said:


> I would just keep them by themselves. They really do do the best in this set up. When I grow them up I keep them in tropheus tanks. I have found that it makes them a bit less skiddish living with the craziness of a tropheus tank, so when there older and I get into a tank by themselves they become the dominate fish in the tank and color up fast. Its takes about a year to really grow them out from say a 2" fry to 4 to 5 inch. They do grow slow, almost as slow as alto's
> 
> The Best thing you can do is just leave the tank alone if you want them to get comfortable. The more you change in the tank the longer it will take for the to color up and breed.
> 
> They do fine in a 6' tank for a long time, few years, but I agree the bigger the better on the tank size. Mine will be going into there 220 7' tank here in the next few months.


Thanks! My new years resolution is to fiddle with my tanks less and watch them more! How long would you say it takes, under optimal conditions and health, for them to grow from birth to sexual maturity?
I'm just wondering if it's worth it to buy more adult females or wait and make my own?

Also, I keep reading posts about providing them with the proper vegetable diet, I feed NLS cichlid formula and frozen brine shrimp. They seem fat and happy on it?


----------



## Furcifer158 (Feb 16, 2008)

I would say it takes around a 1.5 years to reach maturity. Sometimes sooner, sometimes later. I have had over 10 variants of Furcifer and Foai now and this seems the average for me.

Forget about the food, Just stick with NLS, in fact my tank only gets NLS grow with has less veggies in it than cichlid formula I think?
I used to feed strictly spirulina flake food that was 100% spirulina and in fact my fish started to get less color and stop breeding, ever since then I have stayed with NLS.

If you can find adults females, might as well get them. If you can trust the vendor with its true its location.


----------

