# The Hybridization Controversy



## African123 (Mar 22, 2011)

Within many posts are the discussions or hybridization. Many claimed fish like Rubin Red Peacocks or the Red Parrot are "man-made" and are unnatural. My question is why is it frown upon? And who are we to say which ones are "man-made", did you really scour every fish in lake Malawi to make sure the the Rubin Red doesn't exist outside the aquarium?

The practice of only breeding pure-bred is great, but I am constantly seeing hybridization being criticized. Certain points are made, _like human should not alter nature_, and _these hybrids would never survive in the wild_, but why don't we wait and see. I think we should let nature decide that, like it has done for millions of years, via natural selection. For example, who is to say 1000 years from now the all popular electric yellow wont be extinct, because stronger, faster, yellow hybrids took over. I believe that if the fish is *capable* of breeding, they should breed together because it is part of natural selection, as that certain species constantly seek to better themselves.

Just a thought.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Just a thought.


Thanks for your thought and welcome to the forum. As you're apparently aware, there have been many discussions about hybrids here, and some have gotten a bit heated. No harm in adding another, I guess, as long as it doesn't go in a bad way.

I think it's a personal choice, and our hobby, so we can keep whatever we like to keep. If you want to keep Red Parrot's and believe they occur naturally, it doesn't affect me or bother me. It's your choice. And breed whatever you like to breed.

Above all, enjoy your fish. :thumb:


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## eeztropheus (Jan 10, 2010)

Wow! Are you for real?

Pobably best not to entertain this...


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## Bamboo (Jan 12, 2011)

Hybrids , ie flowerhorn and red parrot mixes , are like flip flops .. when you find one , buy it in every color made . It's all entertainment for the human eye and appeasing to the psychic . With that being said , hybrids have nothing to do with fish conservation nor was it ever meant to be . Keeping herps for 20 + yrs , over the last fifteen years ball pythons have been bred in all morphs imaginable and they are still coming . Does herpetoculture have anything to do with herpetology ? No not really , it's all business for the seller and fun for the consumer. I do not bash hybrid fish but it's not my fortee. The academics of Ichthyology or a selective breeding to create a new fish flavor , they both have their place . It just all depends on your reasonsand goals for being in this hobby . 
I am absolutely fascinated with Ichthyology and conservation .


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## African123 (Mar 22, 2011)

Lol its just my opinion and I am seeking to persuade others, or having someone else persuade me, which is what I thought a forum is made for, discussions. I didnt think these gets heated lol


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

I'm only going to make a few points about your arguement here



> The practice of only breeding pure-bred is great, but I am constantly seeing hybridization being criticized. Certain points are made, like human should not alter nature, and these hybrids would never survive in the wild, but why don't we wait and see. I think we should let nature decide that, like it has done for millions of years, via natural selection. For example, who is to say 1000 years from now the all popular electric yellow wont be extinct, because stronger, faster, yellow hybrids took over. I believe that if the fish is capable of breeding, they should breed together because it is part of natural selection, as that certain species constantly seek to better themselves


see, something a lot of people, like yourself, fail to think about is that these fish have been around for a long time, they have already gone through the selection process and evolution, they aren't going to change much from where they are in nature in our lifetimes. putting them in an aquarium is not letting nature takes its course, it's man interefering, so whatever hybrids spawn in your tank is not nature, because chances are it would not happen in nature, especially if your fish are from different parts of the lake, a good but of us like to have a sample of a real species that exists in nature, and we work hard to keep it that way and spend a lot of money as well. where most of us come in on the hybrid areguement is, do whatever you want under your own roof, but don't start pushing them around the hobby, because at some point someone is going to call a lab/zebra hybrid a lab, and it makes it all the more difficult to find an actual yellow lab. It's a simple fact that it's better to have all pure bread cichlids, than no pure bread cichlids, because at some point, the ones that exist in our tanks, may be the only ones left, and it would be nice is they still existed in their original form as much as possible

Humans were one of the last animals to become part of this earth. most creatures did most of their evolving before we got here, we were the last to have to evolve into our current state. Since **** sapiens sapiens came to be, evolution has come to nearly a standstill, because the earth has not changed much during the existance of humans. we have changed the lanscape around us, and it has forced some change, but animals are more likely to die off from it than evolve to survive it, too drastic of a change at one time creates extinction, not evolution. most of the changes to animals have been because of man, not from nature.

a fish from the northern point of the lake would never mate with a fish from the southern point of the lake in the wild because they would never encounter each other in the wild. certain fish rarely move away from their habitat, most of the fish at each collection point have lived in those areas for many years without ever crossing. if labs and zebras were ever going to cross in the wild and create a single species that takes over, they would have done it long before humans ever discovered cichlids


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

It's fine to let nature decide it in the lake. Once we put the fish in our little glass boxes we have changed natural selection and try to avoid unnatural pairings, to the best of our knowledge and ability.

People say red rubins are man made because the breeder claims credit for making this fish. :thumb: If you are looking to have a little slice of the lake in your aquarium, you may prefer fish that are verified to appear there.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

I don't like hybrids, particularly franken fish such as parrots. I also don't care for extreme versions of fish such as balloon rams and angelrams. People are, of course, free to keep what they want. Hybrids do occur in nature as was clearly demonstrated by Rusty Wessel when, at our annual club social dinner, he showed a clip of carpinte crosses that occur naturally in Mexico. The issue for me is that hybrids that appear normal, enter the channels as species either intentionally or by mistake. 
Apparently, according to Oliver Lucanus, of Below Water ( http://www.belowwater.com/ ) flowerhorns have become established in Singapore from breeders dumping their fish when the market for flowerhorns bottomed out. The specific example he cited was of a pond area where they would normally collect chocolate gouramis, which contained a number of breeding pairs of flowerhorn and nothing else. Personally, I believe there are more than enough species of desirable cichlids available without creating frankenfish.


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## football mom (Feb 19, 2006)

>>> someone is going to call a lab/zebra hybrid a lab, and it makes it all the more difficult to find an actual yellow lab. <<<<<

So true.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

Hybrids are just a fact of life. Ever wonder how many posting here are Hybrids themselves or how many Wild Caughts were Born In The USA or Taiwan for that matter? You would be surprised Be Sure. The big problem for me with hybrids is people pawning them off as F1's or pure bred.

TBH the only way to insure no Hybrids is to have separate tanks for each fish, thats okay for breeders but no fun innit for me so my tanks have mutts in em along with the pure bred. I am okay with that and when I confirm a spawn visually and my LFS agrees to relieve me of the fry I'l catch the soon to be mom and strip else nature takes its course and the muts increase by one or three. I'm okay with that.


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## rgr4475 (Mar 19, 2008)

Tri_Pham said:


> I didnt think these gets heated lol


Welcome to the internet.


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## Carmesi (May 8, 2008)

So many extreme views. if the fish breed then the potential is there in nature, but because it doesnt happen that way "naturally" and "right now" its not a fish I want, cause i want whats there right now. But I could care less if there are people who do. I do understand that it makes it harder for peeps like me to find a pure line of naturally occuring fish and hope that those that have hybrids make sure to responsably label them as such. I have no argument against hybrids, i think the argument is against those that lie. cant stop people from lieing. Let there be man made fish, let there be a market for man made fish, just dont call them what they are not.

every once and a while I have a female thats holding in a tank that has multiple species of males. the way I see it... free fish food.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*Carmesi*
It's not just the lied about fish though is it? How many unidentified fish on this and other forums have been labelled with a scientific name. Since hybrids can look like mom, dad, or a combination... Yikes!


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## Chunkanese (Feb 4, 2011)

I think the first response summed it up very well. It's as simple as this. Aquarium fish are not wild. Rare species that are in conservation likely won't be put into situations that allows hybrids. These fish do not get put back into Malawi. What happens in the hobby doesn't directly affect wild fish other than say demand or over fishing. I think the goal is to conserve the true wild species. Than if hybridization does occur in the aquarium it's not a big deal it is still nature if you like it or not. This same theory allowed for evolution. Nature. Those who are interested in pure specimens won't purchase hybrids. Where as others like me don't mind. I don't breed any fish. But a one of a kind fish is special. However I still love certain breeds. Hybrids will happen. But it's not taking away pure needs either. It's just more fish breeding that's occuring.


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## Carmesi (May 8, 2008)

> It's not just the lied about fish though is it? How many unidentified fish on this and other forums have been labelled with a scientific name. Since hybrids can look like mom, dad, or a combination... Yikes!


I am assuming that those that have fry in their tanks would know if they were hybrids or not. So there are 2 scenarios:
1. You are trying to breed them and either tell the truth when you know they are hybrids, or lie to sell them as pure strain.
2. you are not trying to breed, but it happens and there is potential for hybrids as there are multiple species in your tank. in which case I would hope you would just assume they are hybrids rather than guess.

The solution to number 1 if you want to breed, is to only have one species in a tank that could possible breed together. unless of course you want hybrids, but then you must be honest about what they are.

so in all scenarios it comes down to honesty. And unfortunately we cant make people be honest, so we will always have this problem. Once you know a reputable breeder, support them.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Chunkanese said:


> Those who are interested in pure specimens won't purchase hybrids.


Really? How am I able to avoid it? I visit breeder's homes and I look at a tank full of perfect looking yellow labs. I ask the guy about their lineage, and he assures me that the parents are from Germany. :thumb: sounds like it might be good...

The yellow labs are brought home to see them promptly attack other mbuna and throw a couple of all yellow fry. Breeder is contacted and he says "some oddball fry now and then is normal and not all yellow labs are as mellow as you read on the internet".

Oh really? back in the day yellow labs acted exactly as advertised and threw only yellow labs as fry... culls were because they had peppering and looked dirty, not because they killed other fish! 
Seems like now-a-days reality has been altered to fit sloppy animal husbandry practices.

So... how do I avoid hybrids?

Carmesi, I agree... once you find a reputable breeder who knows their stuff, they are worth supporting. :thumb:


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

How to avoid hybrids? I'd agree with Number6, find reputable breeders. Avoid the temptation to buy inexpensive fish from other hobbyists unless you've been to their fish room and know that they're commited to keeping lines pure. You can see from some of the posts in this thread that there are a lot of lax attitudes out there. I've even seen sloppiness from some professional breeders that *seem *to be legit, so you have to be careful. I've got a very short list of from who and from where I'll buy fish, this is that important to me. And I'm talking about being sold as one thing when it's really a cross of two things. If someone want to buy/sell flowerhorns or whatever, I don't have a problem with that. Who knows, maybe I'll own one someday. It's the practice of not knowing what we have, so we guess and pass it on as a certainty that I have a problem with.


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## Chunkanese (Feb 4, 2011)

I meant exactly what you said. People who don't want hybrids will go to reputable breeders. I don't think hybrids should be breeding. I think keeping first generation hybrids is fine for people who don't mind. But I wouldn't recommend breeding with hybrid animals as it could mess up the local population of that species. That's one reason I don't breed or remove holding females because I like my mixed tanks. I have 2 pictus cats that would happily get any fry. Maybe in the future I will dabble into breeding but it would be single species habitats. I should point out the only "hybrid" fish I have is an ob peacock, and an ob zebra which may or may not have a mix. All the rest are true lines.


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## Sheribobbins (Jan 13, 2010)

What about quazimottos?!?! Put'em to sleep? Let them live? Feed them to your Venestus or Fronts? LOL


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## Nina_b (Jan 3, 2011)

There can be great beauty in deliberately selecting traits. I had ornate goldfish for a long, long time, and I loved them.

In the same breath, there can be great beauty in preserving species as they occur in nature.

I think we are confusing arguments here, as some previous posters have pointed out. Creating a new, colourful strain of peacock certainly has its place. Selecting yellow labs for purer colour and darker black fins do as well. This has little or nothing to do with people who lets breeding happen, and then sells you mutant yellow labs who proceed to beat down all your other fish (sigh. Wish this wasn't my situation either). This is a process whereby someone, at some point, misleads another person. I can't really blame anyone for getting angry at this.

That said, the idea that jut because things can breed, they should breed seems a bit off to me. The logic bothers me, not so much the intention. Just because we can murder thousands, does not mean we should - isn't this why we do fishless cycling? In the same breath, what about the nile perch? Is this brute taking over good, because the perch is better adapted? Eh?
Add to that the dubious possibility of natural selection in a fish tank. Hmm.

Perhaps then we need to figure out what we are talking about. Hybridization for sake of new and interesting pets? Hybridization as a concept? Evolutionary theory? Preservation? All different topics, which would have different responses and debates.


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## AlphaWild (Apr 9, 2009)

I have to comment on the argument that only those who want hybrids will purchase hybrids and "purists" (for lack of a better word) will seek out confirmed breeders. I just came to this thread after reading numerous "I didn't realize what i was buying at the LFS" posts. We can all preach that you shouldn't buy anything until you've fully researched what you want and how it will fit your setup, but that doesn't happen. Tons of folks are buying fish every day thinking they're buying a legit species because they bought on impulse. Maybe some don't care when they find out the truth down the road, but I'm sure many more feel cheated by some careless breeder who didn't care what they put into circulation.

My opinion; it isn't that owning or appreciating the look of a hybrid is good/bad, it's that distributing a hybrid, known or suspect, should be discouraged in order to keep them out of general circulation.

On a side note, during these debates the term "hybrid" is often confused with "line bred". Just something to keep in mind.


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## cjbtech (Dec 5, 2008)

This is a topic that will out live every poster on every forum on this planet ! The 2 major complaints I have with hybrids & some hybrid keepers are this; Responsibility & attitude.
1. The responsibility of being forthright in your keeping, breeding, & then selling of the fish. Its like the old shampoo commercial you sell it to a friend & THEY sell it to a friend & so & so on....
Whos really accountable at the end of the day ? Where does it go where is it breeding ? If we as fish keepers aren't careful we will shoot ourselves in the fish tank.
2. Attitude. I have no doubts that hybridization probably occurs in the wild, it's a percentages thing & it gets "selected" out. That being said; comments of "If it happens in my tank it can happen in the wild." I don't think this is so for a lot of fish. I am especialy fond of the Frontosa/Gibberosa species. If you were to take a Zaire variant which is a deep water fish & house them with say a Kavala variant which is generaly known to live in much shallower water ( ie Force them to live together) the result will undoubtedly be a hybrid. This would NOT have happened in the wild. You now have a fish that would look very much like either of it's parrents & damages our hobby a little at a time.
Lets face it , the radical looking hybrids will never harm our fish keeping (flowerhorns, blood parrots etc. to each his own) it's the psychotic yellow Labs or the Front that looks a lot like a Kavala, but isn't.


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## dogofwar (Apr 5, 2004)

Good post, Nina - lots of issues get mixed together in the "hybrid debate"...

What I think gets lost a lot in these conversations is that - since the dawn of fishkeeping - man has been intentionally creating "fancy" fish to suit his aesthetic desires. Creating "fancy" fish, including through hybridization, is nothing new.

The art and the science of creating fancy "fish" requires extensive skill. Developing quality lines of flowerhorns and other Ã¢â‚¬Å"fancyÃ¢â‚¬Â


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