# Breaking the Rules: Your Experiences



## dielikemoviestars (Oct 23, 2007)

So I think most of the regular users of this forum know the cardinal rules of keeping Malawi cichlids. Look at the cookie-cutters in the library, go conservative with ratios/number of species, etc. This is all tremendously helpful, especially for someone new to cichlid-keeping, because it works a large majority of the time.

But I want to know what's worked for you that "shouldn't have."

I'll go first:

60g (48"x16(?)") footprint. Stocking list:
2m:4f socolofi
2m:4f:?juvies hongi
1m albino greshakei
2m:4f saulosi
2f unknown, likely Melanochromis something
2m:2-3f RZ

I'm pretty sure there was 1 more species in there, but can't remember right now. At one point, those numbers were much higher, but I sold about 1/3 of the fish at one point.

Never lost a fish, never had one take a beating. Tank was up for 2+ years.

Another one (not my tank, but I saw it and it's been running for 5ish years with no aggression-related deaths):

6x1.5x2(tall)
4m:4f Mel. auratus (serious)
4+m assorted peacocks (dead serious)
6(sexes unknown) albino socolofi
between 15-20 other assorted mbuna and haps, including YLs, RZs, I think a Red Empress or Taiwan Reef...

No joke. It worked. I completely agree with what you're thinking: that thing's a ticking time bomb. But these are all full-grown fish. I still agree, one stressor and it's going to be a blood bath.

Your turn!


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## RRasco (Aug 31, 2006)

I always try to over stock my tanks. IME there is always more aggression with less fish. As long as you and the filtration keep up with the bioload, it works out well. When I stock conservatively I always have fish bullying others. If there are plenty of other fish to distract the bully, he barely pays attention to one fish very long.

Also, I have about 80 fry in a 29 gallon growout. Its only temporary, but it looks ridiculous.

In the 55, my Hara have a 4m:1f ratio. I didn't do that on purpose, but all the fry that survived ended up being males. I plan to get rid of them, when I decide to let go, but they actually got along for the last year or so. Hara are not always available, hence why I have a growout full of them for my selective pickings.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

My tank hasn't been up long enough to qualify for bending the rules and it working.

I believe when I brought up something like this a month or two ago, it was generally accepted that it should be up for 2 years before qualifying as "it works".


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## pretty-nifty (Nov 4, 2009)

When I first started out, my first tank was a 29G.

4-yellow labs (at least 2 females known)
5-white top hara (at least 2 females and 2 males- not sure about the 1)
2-sexfaciatus (Both male)
1-Scienochromis fryeri
1-common pleco
1-clown loach

Started the cycle with the 4 labs (and a Penguin 150 Biowheel) The rest of the fish were added within a two month period. Also added a 2nd Penguin 150 at this time. Kept this setup for 13 months. Never lost a fish and no one got beat up either. There were torn fins on rare occasions but that's about it. 2 of the female labs held on 3 separate occasions. 1 known to full term with visual on fries before they were eaten. The female afras held on 2 separate occasions. 1 fry survived which is now 1+ in.

All are now moved to a 75G with additional fish and species.

This may have worked because there were lots of hiding places.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

way back before there were fish forums to warn me against the idea :wink: , I bought a 33g long and put 6 Kenyi in it. 3 males, 3 females... no caves. I had that breeding group for a couple of years until I traded them in the local fish store. They produced insane numbers of fry for me... since then, I've read nothing but 2 decades worth of stories about these nasty fish that proved that my 33g group was a rare exception! 8)


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Everything I have tried that was not supposed to work...did not work. Less than 12 Demasoni... Leleupi and shellies... Peacocks and mbuna...


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

umm... a couple months keeping 3 male 3" rusties alone in a 33XL sort of breaks the rules for me. Only planning on keeping them there until I decide which one I ultimately want to keep in my display, and find someone to take the other 3. I didn't expect 3 males of any mbuna species to tolerate being alone in any size tank for even this long without any other fish to spread out aggression.


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## wakeupplan (Nov 17, 2010)

My tank has been running for almost a year now with more males then females. And it has been about six months since the last fish was introduced

I have two males that are supposed to b real big pains
One big male bumble be and a male auratus
Plus I have a big male yellow lab/zebra hybrid
Two male red top hongis
Two male ob peacocks
One frontosa
One Tropheus duboisi 
Plus a few zebra males and some other random boys

The only females I have for sure is a female kenyi and yellow labs. I have only had to remove one fish from that tank and it was a female red empress that the ob peacocks chassed relentlessly.

That's my big rule breaking tank and for now all has ran smoothly and there has been little fin nipping and just a bit of fighting over caves or hiding holes.

And the other rules I'm breaking is I have a smaller tank with three zebras and a fire eel. But that's not as bad I guess. the zebras seem to care less about the fire eel.


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## dielikemoviestars (Oct 23, 2007)

wakeup - how big is that tank?!


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## JimNY (Dec 11, 2010)

My tank has been going about 3 months:
1M:3F Melonchromis Auratas
2M:2F Kenyi's
1M:1F Labeo Twavasea
5 Ps. Elongates Likoma(unsexed yet)
1 Syn. Angelicas
NO Issues- all 1 big happy group all haging out together!

Tank#2(haps)
1M:1F Nimbochromis Livingstonii
Im Eye biter
1 Male Orange shoulder peacock
3 P. Milomo(unsexed yet)
1M:1F Protomelos Taen. "fire blue".
2 Pictus catfish
NO issues at all,either


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

Really, thousands of hobbyists have had success with mixed tanks over the years... mixed as in a bunch of different species together, males and females. Even including Auratus and Kenyi!

This obsession with "perfect" sex ratios or all male seems a bit extreme to me, the idea that this is the only way. Of course, you can always try for perfection, reality seems way less predictable. People should try to avoid disasters, but also hobbyists should be able to have fun. Many of theses rules are rather extreme but just basic guidelines.

There are many different ways to keep Malawi cichlids. Basic rules I've seen... the bigger tank the easier... adding juveniles is better and easier... they all will possibly hybridize.


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## ridley25 (Jan 5, 2008)

Glaneon said:



> I believe when I brought up something like this a month or two ago, it was generally accepted that it should be up for 2 years before qualifying as "it works".


I would agree with that definition.

In my 36" 38 gallon I had 5 crummy labs (probably hybrids) with 1m/2f Tropheops sp. "red fin" and singles of demasoni & Ps. sp. "acei" (Ngara).

No one died but it only took about 5 months before there were fish constantly hiding and plenty of badly torn fins.

It's been a saulosi only tank since then, which isn't breaking any rules.

kevin


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## master chi (Jan 3, 2010)

Rhinox said:


> umm... a couple months keeping 3 male 3" rusties alone in a 33XL sort of breaks the rules for me. Only planning on keeping them there until I decide which one I ultimately want to keep in my display, and find someone to take the other 3. I didn't expect 3 males of any mbuna species to tolerate being alone in any size tank for even this long without any other fish to spread out aggression.


 the 33 xl I know is 48 inches long so technically no rules are broken when keeping yellow labs. how long is your tank?

I have thought of getting one of these 33 gal,48 inch long long tanks to try a species tank.

does anyone have experience with these?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

ridley25 said:


> Glaneon said:
> 
> 
> > I believe when I brought up something like this a month or two ago, it was generally accepted that it should be up for 2 years before qualifying as "it works".
> ...


Me too. The first year the fish are maturing and until most of the tank is spawning you are not seeing adult interaction. Joea said once something like calling a tank a success too soon (at the one-year mark?) is like calling a marriage a success during the honeymoon. :lol:

Maybe I spend too much time in the Illness forum trying (and often failing) to help people with desperate illnesses wiping out their tanks.


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## vahid (Jan 9, 2011)

Ok, in the case of tanks consisting of Juvies you should wait 1-2 year to judge the tank stablished and successful but what is the waiting period for the tanks which are begun with stocking adult fish?


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*vahid*
6 months minimum in my experience, though even then, there are no guarantees. I once had apistos and amano shrimp together for quite some time until one day... the apistos discovered that a dead amano tasted good. They then ganged up on each shrimp till none were left!!!


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## RRasco (Aug 31, 2006)

DJRansome said:


> Maybe I spend too much time in the Illness forum trying (and often failing) to help people with desperate illnesses wiping out their tanks.


Maybe some people just have bad luck, I've never had an outbreak of anything in my tank other than algae. *Knocks on wood*

I do think we need to abide by certain rules, that is for sure. Tetras and Oscars don't mix, mmkay? The rules should be used as general guidelines, but some things are capable of working outside of the 'rules'. I think the problem comes with the online communities where people try to crucify each other because somebody is breaking the rules. It's this extremist mentality where everyone has to have the same stocking as everybody else or do things a specific way. What works for one person may not work for the next, that's how life works, even in an aquarium.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

It's not really an extreme, more of a guideline because "more often than not", certain combinations don't work well long term.


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## bmweiler09 (Nov 17, 2009)

Glaneon said:


> It's not really an extreme, more of a guideline because "more often than not", certain combinations don't work well long term.


Right, this can be a very expensive and discouraging hobby, especially if you come home to 6 dead $9 fish because you didn't follow the basic guidelines. Sure people would never know if certain combinations or ways of doing things would work or not without trying, but as a forum we need to be pointing each other and newcomers in the right direction with the best advise.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

RRasco said:


> I think the problem comes with the online communities where people try to crucify each other because somebody is breaking the rules. It's this extremist mentality where everyone has to have the same stocking as everybody else or do things a specific way. What works for one person may not work for the next, that's how life works, even in an aquarium.


I don't think that it is the rule breaking that gets folks jumped on here on C-F... it is IMO, the rejection of warnings that usually get attacked. I'm sorry, but the attitude of "well it worked for me, it can work for you" is just plain idiotic. Take my Kenyi tank example... imagine if I went around cichlid forums telling people to try a 33g long setup for 3 male Kenyi and 3 female? I predict nearly 100% failures... yet, it worked for me! Wisdom says that I must have been lucky. :wink:


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

There's a lot to be said for a lot of variables we may not consider when it comes to aggression:

amount of light (time)
strength of light (brightness)
color of light
temperature of water
salinity
hardness
pH
feeding frequency
feeding amount
food type

That's just off the top of my head -- and it's impossible to say any 1 factor can have 0 effect; they're animals, no two are identical in behavior.


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## pretty-nifty (Nov 4, 2009)

Glaneon said:


> There's a lot to be said for a lot of variables we may not consider when it comes to aggression:
> 
> amount of light (time)
> strength of light (brightness)
> ...


I agree on this one.


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## RRasco (Aug 31, 2006)

I agree with everything said. I still think people get too crazy over telling people how to setup their tanks. Guidelines are good, I'm not saying they are not. I just think people overreact sometimes. This most certainly is not a blanket statement, it doesn't apply to all situations. Maybe I should point out I'm not specifically talking about stocking certain species together as much as I am talking about stocking numbers (multi-species). I have success overstocking, but some fish just flat out won't work together.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

I definitely agree that almost all of the guidelines that are advised in this forum can be bent. And sometimes that line of success vs. failure can come down to a single very aggressive individual fish.

But it is often the case that people who are new to Malawi cichlids post a stocklist and ask for advice about what they can/cannot add to their tank. Often they already have a stocklist that has a very low probability of long term success. I figure that any newcomer to the hobby would want to know that their stocklist has a low probability of success - and that they also might like to hear an alternative with a higher probability. Ultimately, they can sift through the replies and decide how to stock their tank, but I assume people post because they desire more information.

Furthermore, I just don't feel comfortable giving anyone advice on a stocklist that I believe would have a lower than a 60-70% success rate. The only exception is if someone says that they must have a certain species and acknowledges the risk and has a hospital tank at the ready.

Now to the original question - what rules have I broken.
I have 7 species of mbuna in a 125 gallon tank. In all, the tank has been up for 1.5 years, but the stocklist has been in flux. Thus, I wouldn't recommend my mix just yet - and not everything is breeding yet.
I have 2 species from the genus cynotilapia in the same tank. (No signs of crossbreeding or interest in the other species in 8 months - both species have bred). Note that they are from the same collection point and thus, probably encounter each other in the wild and do not crossbreed there.
I (temporarily) have a single pair of yellow labs hanging out in my 125 gallon. I won't be harvesting fry from them or from any similar-colored species while they are in there.


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## hs5964 (Aug 21, 2010)

Ha, good topic.

I have 2 Zebra Danios in my 125g Mbuna Tank, I used them to cycle it. I would of got them out, but the tank is too big and they swim too fast to catch them  Been in there for going on about 5 months already. All my Cichlids are the 3" range, they don't even notice the Danios, lol.


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## Outcastgsx (Nov 15, 2010)

This topic is funny because my friend and I joke how there are so many guide lines on what should be with what and so on. I belive just use common sense, if your new to the hobbie then yeah follow the guide lines but try to go outside the box sometime its not that bad. I was in this hobbie in the mid 90s. I was like 15 or so and had species that at the time for my age and location where crazy. I had solusis, red top zebra,white top afras,jalos,checkerd boards,cheweries,auroras,johanies,socolifis,fuliborni,auratus and some more but I just cant remember. lol I had only a 55g but not all where in there at the same time. I had maybe 18 to 20 fish, never lost one due too aggresion most of the fish spawned especialy the great chewerie,lol fav. Never had a ph tester, cycled my tank for a week, I just feed them speralina and did my weekly water changes. Now over a decade later I see there are guide lines for this and that, shoot I used to sit in front of the tanks and hand pick the alpha males and only 2 maybe 3 females and mind you all my males in my 55g where alpha males and not the 4 plus females everyone seems to claim one needs and never lost a fish. Today I still have a 55g with a 135g set up and running I just need a 500w heater, a 10g for emergency which at the moment houses 3 small cobues. I only have 10 demasonis not the 12 plus and there doing just fine, already spawned, polits,cheweries,flavus and all are doing good in a 55g, about 5-6 of each too. I will be getting tropheops chilumba, m. chilumba luwino reef, msobo and one more all in my 135g. I like fish that are aggresive keeps things exciting! Like I said dont be scared to think outside the box, and buy the fish you like.


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## Trench (Jan 4, 2011)

When i first got into Mubuna , i went crazy. i was like 14 and i had atleast 60 fish in a 60 gallon plus all the fry that survived as well... later in my 20's i keep africans with south americans my domant fish was a Cynotilapia sp. ''Lion'' Mara Rocks , I had a Red Devil in that tank that was "ATLEAST" 6 times his size. somthing was wrong with that afra cause the devil prolly could have ate him but he pushed that devil around like a red headed step child lol. i think theres somthing to be said about this ,my buddie brought up the other day. Fish that are raised together form a comunity of sorts a pecking order. but that was the meanest Mbuna i ever had and this was in a 125 gallon tank.


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## Trench (Jan 4, 2011)

> I have 2 species from the genus cynotilapia in the same tank. (No signs of crossbreeding or interest in the other species in 8 months - both species have bred).


 Im curious what 2 types do you have bro?


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## Cyclesafety (Feb 8, 2010)

Today's conventional wisdom is tommorrow's old school thinking - for example, undergravel filters and aquarium salt. I know, there are _still_ two sides (or more) to these practices.

I think that one should absorb as much knowledge as possible, but then make incremental changes from the cookie-cutter to "the better" and then observe results. The frustrating thing - as mentioned many times above - is that it takes a very long time before changes to the system run their course.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

Trench said:


> Im curious what 2 types do you have bro?


In my 55 gallon I have Cynotilapia sp. Mbamba (Nkhata bay) and Cynotilapia afra (Nkhata bay). The afra (my icon) is the king of the tank, but doesn't bother the mbambas unless they come in his breeding den.


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## Outcastgsx (Nov 15, 2010)

Yo man your Afra is beautiful! I have some small cobue, I hope they get as colorful as most I have seen in pics.


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## magic_cichlid (Jun 30, 2003)

I had a 29 gallon tank with a breeding quad of Sci. Fryeri. Every other month each female would give me between 60-90 fry. Tank was running and breeding for over 3 years. Sold lots of fry. Never a problem in the tank.


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## dielikemoviestars (Oct 23, 2007)

I agree, that Afra is gorgeous. I was wondering what it was - glad I read through the thread to find out.

Magic - that's nuts! Pictures?!


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## magic_cichlid (Jun 30, 2003)

No, unfortunately not. I had pretty cool pics too...breeding w/eggs laying on slate, babies in the mouth, etc. I wish I had kept them. When we moved 5 years ago I sold everything. Just now getting back into Fryeri...this time with a bigger tank though. I knew I was pushing it but it worked. I had to make homemade caves for the females to hide in that were too small for the male. I think that's why it worked because he couldn't get to them if they weren't interested.


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