# Beginner Question about Tank Setup - 100g



## Rush22 (Aug 15, 2014)

Hello all,

I'm new to the Cichlid world. My parents and I recently bought for our sunroom a nice 100 gallon Oceanview tank+stand+lights set, but we've had some issues with setup. Hopefully some of you can help us with the issues we clash with:

_1. My mom read somewhere that it is unsafe to put ANY synthetic materials in a tank since they can diffuse into the water and be risky to the fish, so she's sure that even a* bottom layer of foam or 'egg crate' light diffuser will not be safe*. Yet I hear of many people (and experts) recommending to do just that - what is your experience?_

_2. My dad and I differ on *how much rock we think our tank will support and whether the cichlids will like it*. Since it is a 100g tempered glass tank, and since I've read this from so many cichlid keepers, keeping a lot of heavy rock is not that big of problem. Right now we have some fake Texas Holey Rock that are lightweight; yet in the future we may get big rocks. But my dad thinks adding too much rock is crazy; he thinks: 1) Cichlids will feel too confined with too much rock and 2) A lot of rocks will compromise the tank structure. I'm of the opinion that cichlids need not just rocks, but higher-layers of rock for territorial purposes, and that tempered glass is strong enough to hold a lot of rock. What do you think? 
_

_3. *Slight stand tilt:* We've discovered that our sunroom floor (it is ground level) is not as flat as we thought, and so our stand barely tilts about 2 mm if we try to rock it a little. We tried moving it to other areas, but this is one of the few against-the-wall locations that doesn't tilt that much, so it's an ideal location for us. I'm worried that even a slight tilt can be bad in the long-term, because tilting means that the weight is applied unevenly and can press down/break the stand. But my dad thinks that it's not that bad, that the weight of the tank will 'slightly bend' the wood of the stand and it will adjust itself. Am I overreacting? If any of you know effective solutions to correct a stand tilt safely, please let me know. Also tell me if I don't need to do anything and should just relax!_

My parents are a little stubborn when it comes to people writing on the internet. They seem to believe that a lot of stuff people write on forums are just whimsical people with opinions, not necessarily scientific. And I understand where they're coming from because a lot of other websites have trolls/inexperienced users, but I'm sure that on a reputed site like this there are people with valuable years of personal experience.

*So I'd like to show them the value/credibility of your experience. I know it's asking much, but In your answers, please state:*
- How long you have been in the hobby of aquarium keeping (and esp. cichlid keeping)
-The size and dimensions of your tank
- Approx. how level is your stand setup & what floor of the house it is on.
-The approx. weight of rocks you have in your tank AND how long it's held up for without problems.
- Whether you use a bottom layer of foam/etc inside your tank to support substrate and rocks, and how thick it is.
- Any other info you think would help a beginner (i.e. best filtration, cichlid combos, etc)

Thanks folks!


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

1)umm plenty of synthetic materials are fine in the aquarium. All fiter foams, bioballs etc are synthetic. The one thing to be careful of is using anything made for bathrooms as they can have antifungal coatings so just check before use.
2) you can completely fill your tank with rocks and some without any issues. The amount of rock work will depend on the species being kept

This well over 140lbs of rock.
3)it is good practice to level your stand. Shim the feet as required. My floor is so bad I have one end of my stand shimmed a full inch and the other end on the floor over its 5ft length
-Keeping fish 8 years various cichlid species the whole time
-Currently 2 tanks 48x18x18ins and 25x15x13ins
-Tanks all level. Ground floor, t&g on wooden joists
-Big tank has had anywhere up to 200lb of rock on and off for the last 3yrs
-I've always put my rocks directly onto the glass with a thin layer of substrate to spread the load due to the unevenness of the rocks.
-Find out whether or not you have hard of soft water and keep fish that suit your water because you'll have enough to get your head around with worrying about messing with your water chemistry.
DO YOUR RESEARCH before buying any fish. Going into the shop and buying a load of shiny fish usually won't end well (shiny fish syndrome will still afflict experienced keepers on occasion)


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

Oh and ask any question that pops into your head because it will be the answer to that so called stupid question that will cause you the most grief.


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## mambee (Apr 13, 2003)

And ask your questions here because you might not get accurate answers at your local store.


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## OllieNZ (Apr 18, 2014)

mambee said:


> And ask your questions here because you might not get accurate answers at your local store.


+1
Couldn't agree more.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

tell your mom that she is looking way to much into this. u dont need to be a scientist to keep an aquarium. the "whimsical" opinions recieved on forums are usually based on experience from years of keeping fish. are there general guidelines to follow? yes there are. however, part of the enjoyment of the hobby is straying a bit from the so called rules and doing things a little different. imo. my question is about location of the tank. when u say sunroom, how much sun are u talking about.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Welcome to C-F!!

You asked a lot of good questions and I understand the concerns about whether information from the internet is viable or not. Now on to your questions.

#1. Synthetic materials cover a lot of products. As noted, many aquarium safe items are synthetic in nature and perfectly fine for use. I have used egg crate (lighting diffuser) in my 220G tank under my rocks because at one time this was the often suggested way to avoid problems. I absolutely hate it because my cichlids always uncover it and it looks ugly. I have since stopped using it in any tanks.

#2. Any aquarium can be completely filled with rock, regardless of whether it is tempered or not. The important things to remember are that the rocks are placed in such a manner that they won't topple over and that they make good contact with the bottom glass. Many cichlids like to dig and if the rocks are placed on top of the substrate, the fish can dig out the substrate and the rocks can topple. Cichlids like to establish territories and many use rocks and caves as part of this territory and also for safe places to hide and raise babies.

#3. It is important to level and plumb the stand to avoid any twisting or sagging. This can be accomplished by using shims or spacers under the stand. I like to place the tank on the stand in the location, check for level and plumb. Slide a tapered wood shim under the low end and tap it in until level and plumb. Fill the tank 1/2 full of water. Recheck with a level. Repeat steps until level and plumb.

-I have been back in the hobby since 2004 after a 30 year absence and have mostly Lake Tanganyika cichlids but also Malawi and West African cichlids with some non-cichlid species.
-I have 24 aquariums running, ranging from 10G up to 220G (72"L x 24"W x 30"H), all in my basement, on either carpeting or vinyl flooring.
-My 220G tank is on carpet over concrete floor (basement), has been setup since 2005 and has a couple hundred pounds of rocks stacked more than 1/2 way up the tank. Using a 4 foot long level, the bubble is within the window of the level.
-I do have egg crate under the rock piles but as I noted above, I don't think it makes a difference for supporting the rocks or protecting the glass.
-I agree with OllieNZ's comments regarding knowing your water parameters before choosing fish. A quality aquarium test kit is invaluable, especially for a new fish keeper. Also know that the pH of the water in the wild from where the species originally came from isn't always a requirement when keeping tank raised fish so don't get too concerned with that. Water hardness (GH) and alkalinity (KH) are also a factor so I recommend buying these 2 kits separately as they are not often included in the test kit.

Take your time and do some research on the fish you want to keep. There are so many choices out there for species so it can be hard to choose. It's also important to pick species that will do well together long term. You also need to become familiar with preparing your tank before you get any fish. There is a process called cycling and this process builds up the 'good' bacteria in the tank to establish to process ammonia and nitrite and converts these harmful substances to nitrate. Check out the Fishless Cycling article in my signature for more information.


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## Rush22 (Aug 15, 2014)

Hi again guys,

I'm a bit late to checking this forum; true story, today I was cleaning my pool-filter sand outside in our garden near some bushes and then I got bit by a lot of fire ants or some random bugs, I couldn't tell which - either way, half an hour later my body started swelling and I had trouble breathing so I had to go to the ER. But they gave me some IV and I'm okay now, so I got back in time to check your answers 

First off, THANKS for your responses, especially those of y'all that gave detailed ones. I can't thank you enough. I told my parents about what you said and noted how credible you are, especially OllieNZ and Deeda, keeping your tanks for nearly 8-10 years. They started opening up to a lot of the stuff you said.

Update on the tank: So now we moved the tank a bit over to a more even surface, and the tilting' s all about stopped. I'll fill it up with water halfway and see if I need to buy some shims from Home Depot. I bought some regular tan/brown pool filter sand, thoroughly soaked about 100 lbs of it (since its a 100 g tank), and have a nice 1 1/2 - 2 inch layer of sand, hopefully that should be enough for cichlids (I hear some people say 2 inches should be the limit, some say a bit more than 2 so the fish have digging room, so I'll just experiment). Over the next few days I'll be adding another layer of rock/pebble substrate and then the fake holey rock/larger stones.

*Deeda*, I took your advice and decided not to put a foam layer for substrate absorption, instead I just put the 2 inch layer of sand first. Amazing that you have 24 tanks! I can hardly imagine how much work it is, but I bet it's rewarding. And thanks for the plumbing info on the stand; we moved it over a bit and find that it's not tilting as much now, but I'll fill it with a halfway water test like you said and see if I need the shims. Regarding the water hardness, I live in Texas and the water tends to be pretty hard with minerals; I also hear that crushed corals can also be good for a cichlid tank, so I'm gonna look into that.

*Sumthinfishy*, you're right about people's advice. It's always nice to hear new methods that work from the experts who have experimented successfully 'against the rules'. (I.e. the fishless cycle, which I'm gonna try soon) As far as the sunroom, It's basically a room whose outer walls are all covered with large window panes, but there's an inner wall that's anchored to the house. So we put the tank against the inner wall so it doesn't get direct sunlight, to prevent algae buildup; yet the room itself is a little brighter than an average room, because all the windows let in more light. Would it be more the sunlight or heat that causes algae to grow?

*OllieNZ,* I like your tank! How old are those particular blue cichlids, and do you know how fast they grow? Wow 200 lbs of rock is something. Yea I hear putting the rocks directly on the tank is a good idea so the fish don't knock them over. I might also silicone-glue a little foam on mine to keep them sturdy. I notice you have some plants in there as well; do the cichlids not bother them? Are they real or fake/silk? I hear that for real plants the cichlids could dig at the roots so I'm a bit weary of putting them, might go w/ plastic.

*Mambee*, boy are you right about the fish stores! The commercial pet stores that we went to (Petsmart, Petco) had people who barely kept fish or were serious hobbyists, it didn't seem like they knew what they were talking about. But I went to a local fish store, and nearly everyone there had like 5-20 years of experience, and I was much more impressed. Their selection is a bit more expensive than the commercial places, but the quality is better.

Thanks again guys, I appreciate your answers, and I'll keep you updated!


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

Rush,

My suggestion to you would be to go on youtube and find a bunch of tanks PACKED full of rocks and show them to your parents!

If that doesn't work find some one local who has a tank full of rocks and take them to see it. Perhaps maybe an LFS or a fellow hobbyist. If you lived near my I would let you come see mine. My tank doesn't have a ton of rocks in it, but it's pretty full and I do have some 'synthetic'' materials in it.

Even if we all give our credentials your parents still may not believe us. Many people of the older generation are very skeptical of anything found online. This is not a criticism, just and observation. You are in a large city so I'm sure you could find some local tanks to show to your parents. Hopefully seeing is believing!

P.S. Sorry to hear about the bugs, hope you're feeling better!


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## Rush22 (Aug 15, 2014)

clhinds78, yes I'm feeling much better now after I took some medication, thank you. And you're right about the older generation being skeptical  I guess that's a natural trait. But I did manage to convince about the ability for tanks to show heavy rocks, thanks largely to the answers posted on this thread from credible hobbyists.

By the way guys, I have a few more questions (you don't have to answer all if there are too many for you lol):

-I'm a little concerned about the expenses of getting cichlids. I live in the Dallas,TX area, and there are several good commercial pet stores as well as dedicated fish places where I check out fish. I notice that juveniles are naturally on the cheaper side (4-8 dollars), but the larger ones and especially the unique colorful ones are quite expensive (upwards of 30-50 dollars), and often are mostly found online. Since I'm just starting a 100g tank with no fish yet, what do you recommend? I was thinking of getting a tank full of about 20 juveniles (thus using the 'crowding' principle) from the local pet store, since I hear juveniles are more tolerant of each other. Is it true that if I buy juveniles, it will be harder to tell the males from the females (I want to be careful which genders/ what ratio I want to buy)? Also, if I buy them online, it would be harder to return them or even sell them, right? Please let me know your experiences.

Questions:
-About how much money would you say you spend on the cichlid-keeping hobby overall (i.e. filters, buying foods, other expenses, etc) on a monthly basis?
-For those of you who have other pets(dogs, cats, etc) or fish tanks, how would you compare the cost of keeping cichlids as opposed to them (i.e. more or less expense, and by how much)?

-How much has 'fish-mixing/experimentation' cost you? If you had to spend more money early on because of fish dying or having to return/sell them, at what point do those 'trial-and-error' expenses start to level off? At what point can you confidently purchase &introduce an online cichlid (at around 30-40 dollars) into your tank without worrying much about potentially losing that fish?

-For a beginner what in your experience is a good mix (i.e. haps vs mbunas, Lake Malawi VS Tankganyika, etc)? I"m reading the "Specific recommendations for beginners" article on this site but I'd like to also hear your experiences in your early keeping days.

-Have you ever sold fish online, and if so, how long did you have to wait before someone bought it from you? What are good ways (or specific websites) to sell them?

-What are major pointers you can recommend so I can keep at minimum any unnecessary mishaps/costs (i.e. fish injuries due to aggression, sickness, etc?)?

I ask these questions because as enjoyable as I anticipate them to be, I naturally want to keep it as affordable as possible. I'm a determined person, and I'm willing to succeed and learn from my mistakes, but I don't want to spend money unnecessarily when more affordable or time-tested techniques are better.

Thanks!


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

to answer your question regarding heat or light causing algae; excessive sunlight will cause the algae, but if the water gets to warm then it has less oxygen in it, which will obviously suffocate the fish.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Sorry to hear about your 'insect' encounter but glad you are feeling better.

First off, what are the dimensions of your 100G tank? This will help you choose appropriately species and quantity that will work well for it.

I found that the initial cost to buy all the equipment is the largest expense. Replacement filter media is usually negligible but this depends on what type of filter you have. Power filters that use replaceable cartridges are usually an ongoing expense unless you are comfortable with using non-aquarium media. Canister filters need the fine media pads replaced less often though this depends on how dirty they get but this can also be replaced with Poly-fil batting from craft stores.

My 4 feline friends cost me much more to feed and maintain then all my fish tanks do, probably because they are older and have health issues. Cat food and kitty litter aren't cheap with 4 of them!

I don't experiment with what fish work well together, I prefer to research what species will work together and choose tank mates wisely. This cuts down on potential problems down the road with trying to figure out how to remove offending fish in a decorated tank easily, what to do with them when I remove them and the feelings of guilt when they kill each other.

I find that Malawi Mbuna cichlids are too active for many Tanganyika cichlids and I do not mix them, this probably explains why I have so many tanks! I only have 2 large tanks, the 220G and a 75G, the rest are under 40G and these tanks are mostly species only or a mix of 2 species.

I do not sell fish online nor have I ever purchased any online. I haven't found a need to because I belong to a couple local fish clubs in my area and I am able to buy and sell any fish I don't want or that I have raised through the clubs. I find it an excellent method to get quality fish for usually reasonable prices and I highly recommend seeing if there is a local fish club near you.

You can see if your local fish store will accept any fish you don't want, some will give you store credit, some only a dollar or two and some won't take any of them. You can place an ad in this forum's Classified section or your local paper or online websites. We can't recommend specific websites per forum rules though members can PM you their suggestions.

I highly recommend starting out with juvenile fish rather than adults, simply because of the price difference. I find it very enjoyable to see the young fish grow up and mature into nice specimens. The downside with buying juveniles is that you may have to remove any extra males in the near future to avoid aggression issues and it takes a few months to see your tank full of fish. The usual recommendation is to buy at least 6 fish with the hope of getting at least 1 male to 4 or 5 females, depending on the species. Many Malawi cichlids are harem breeders rather than pair breeders.

Is your sun room connected to your home's heating/cooling system? Is there any way to regulate the temperatures? I see you are from Texas so heating isn't usually an issue, the problem may be keeping the room cool enough to avoid over heating the aquarium. As sumthinfishy noted, warmer water holds less oxygen so increasing the surface agitation of the water will help, as will good water movement throughout the tank.


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

Rush,

For your size tank and since you're knew to the hobby, I'd highly recommend going with an mbuna only tank. They are pretty easy to care for once you learn a couple simple principles and are cheap (at least when compared to male peacocks).

This bring me to my next point, an all-male peacock tank can be quite beautiful, but it will cost you. You'll either have to buy 3-4 juvies at $8-10 a peace or adult males at $40-60 a peace. Mbunas can be had for around $8-10, sometimes less if you buy from a local breeder.

This brings me to my final point, if you want to get fish the cheapest look for local breeders either at fish clubs or on craigslist. This can be a great way to get cichlids cheap. Since mbunas are fairly popular and easy to breed a lot of ppl raise them and then sell them cheap. I picked up most of mine for around $5 a piece.


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## dalto (Aug 20, 2006)

If you are in Texas it shouldn't be too hard to get fish inexpensively. Just go to one of the area auctions. Even if you have to drive a few hours it may be worth it to full your tank.


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## TINY (Aug 14, 2014)

I'm looking at one of the sponsors online fish store, you can have male peacock between 2-3" for around $12-15. I'm in a same boat as you are, and still doing my research. If you have an intention of getting all male, I would just try get all males from the get go, and avoid the trouble of waiting to sex them and catching at a later time. Also, if you have concerns about piling tons of rocks, advice to me was, peacocks do not require lots of rocks compare to mbunas. Just do your research to avoid unnecessary expenses, either from buying livestocks or equipment.


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

TINY said:


> I'm looking at one of the sponsors online fish store, you can have male peacock between 2-3" for around $12-15. I'm in a same boat as you are, and still doing my research. If you have an intention of getting all male, I would just try get all males from the get go, and avoid the trouble of waiting to sex them and catching at a later time. Also, if you have concerns about piling tons of rocks, advice to me was, peacocks do not require lots of rocks compare to mbunas. Just do your research to avoid unnecessary expenses, either from buying livestocks or equipment.


Which sponsor was that? I know a few online retailers carry them, but the selection is usually limited.


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## Rush22 (Aug 15, 2014)

Hey guys, 
Wow this looks like great info you've given me - thanks a bunch!

*Sumthinfishy*, ah good point about the water getting too warm. Since it's not directly by the window I can manage to keep it at a steady mid-70s F most of the time. And we do have an A/C unit installed exclusively for the sunroom in case it gets too hot (which it can in Texas).

*Deeda*, thanks so much for taking the time to post a lot of info!
My tank is 60 in long x 18 in deep x 21.5 in tall. So it is a bit taller than it is deep.
Yes I've been hearing a lot about investing in quality filters. I'm really steering towards cannister filters because my tank is a large one; I might buy 2 and even a small HOB just for extra mechanical filter support. I know a lady who has FOUR filters on a large tank and she claims she needs to really do a cleansing every couple of months! I guess the principle of redundancy and over-filtering is a good way to go.
Good to hear about cichlids being less expensive than the bigger pets lol. I know that for dogs and cats the main thing to worry about is mostly food and toys; with fish we also have the filtration, pet replacement issues so I was wondering if the costs would get out of hand, but as long as its manageable I'm content with that.
I think that researching the fish, as you said, is a good way to go. Maybe if I ever decide to experiment I'll hold off until I feel I'm advanced enough lol. Right now I'd rather go with what works so as to make things easiest on myself. Thanks for the tip on not mixing Malawi Mbunas with Tanganyikas, I'll also have to do more reseach in that regard and see what works. I still have a few weeks of fishless cycling to do so I'll have plenty of research time.
Oh fish clubs! I didn't even think of that- that sounds like a nice idea. And I also see that the trading post on this site is a good way to go, too. I'm also looking at Craigslist and other local aquatic dealers; in fact I'm thinking of calling all the major suppliers around and asking their store policy before I buy, that way I can plan in advance. 
I was thinking of buying maybe 20 juveniles at once (using the overstocking principle), but if 6 or 7 is enough in the beginning then perhaps I'll try that. Yea I'll have to find a good balance of males/females - I've even heard of some doing all-male tanks, etc. I actually want to lessen the chance of fry because I'm not sure what I'd do with them. I'd imagine it'd be a hassle because you'd need an extra tank for the mother and there'd be a lot of moving.
And yes, our sunroom does have an A/C unit for it exclusively, so keeping the temperature stable is no longer difficult.

*clhinds78,* 
Thanks for the recommendation. Yes I wasn't really sure if Mbunas or Haps was the way to go, but its sounding more like Mbunas are good to start with. As far the all-male peacock tank, it sounds nice becuase I'd rather limit the amount of fry, but if it's pricey then I'll have to reconsider. Would you have to overstock in either situation? And yea, I've been looking around and as you said Craigslist and similar sites do have some good deals. I just messaged a dealer 3 hours away who has a whole list of juvies at around 5-7 dollars each, so I'm happy with that. Now I just have to research which ones to get.

*dalto*, good suggestion, I'll look around for some auctions, I didn't even realize they auctioned fish. I found some dealers a few hours away who can ship them, so I'll see where I can get the better deal.

*Tiny*, oh okay I didn't realize that peacocks didn't require as many rocks. That was a concern of mine because try as I might it's been really hard to find quality rocks around here! I was able to get some fake Holey Rock for a good deal, and picked up a few pieces of slate from a nearby creek, and that's it. I was worried it wouldn't be enough for a cichlid tank. But if there are some who don't require as much rock, that'll be ideal - I-'ll have to do my research on that and calculate a mix.

Thanks again for your help, guys, I'll try and keep you posted in the following days/weeks on my progress


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

Both hap and peacocks are sexually diamorphic-meaing only the males color up. A lot of he hap species can grow to over a foot and would probably be too large for a 5' tank. Ahli and intermedius are two haps that stay pretty small and are beautiful!

Some of the mbunas are diamorophic too, but there are many that aren't or that have just as beautiful females as males (soulosi and kenyi are two that come to mind).

Haps and peacocks really aren't harder to care for than mbuna, but since they are diamorophic it can be trickier to bet nice looking specimens and expensive. You want to overstock with haps and peacocks just as you do with mbuna-especially if you're going with all male! I'd think you could probably house around 20-25 male haps and peacocks in your tank as long as none of them grow too large or about 30-35 mbuna. I once heard a rule of 1 mbuna per 2 gallons and one hap or peacock per 3-4. That's a bit extreme, but not too far off.


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