# Real newbie help/information



## rmcder (Jul 9, 2005)

I already know that this post is going to cause a lot of cringing, but please have mercy and bear with me. I have a reasonable background with New World cichlids; Africans are another thing entirely.

I recently cleared my 75-gal tank and decided to temporarily throw some color in the tank (there's the first cringe). I went to Petsmart (second cringe). I picked up fish more or less randomly (third cringe). I KNOW I'm going to have to make adjustments to what I have, so at least give me points for asking some questions (stupid though they may be).

Near as I can figure (since I don't necessarily trust the Petsmart labels), I have two kenyi; both blue (males?) and about 3". One seems to spend his time chasing the other, so they're currently leaving everything else alone. I have a demasoni; about 1.25"; might not be healthy as it isn't very active and not eating that I can see, and a 1.25" 'bumblebee'. I think I have a 1.25" auratus (but it's so washed out now that I'm not sure), a 2" johanni and a 1.25" cyanerhabdos. I have three yellow labs about 1.25-1.5". I have two of what I think might be rubescens peacocks (orange bodies, darker orange heads); 1.5", and one jacobfreibergi, about 1.5".

I believe my (eventual) problems will be with the kenyi, demasoni, and auratus, yes? Who else should I be looking out for? I think the peacocks and labs are ok together?

One last thing, my understanding is that water pH is not as large an issue as it once was, but my fish are doing some 'scratching' on the rocks and sand. pH is right around 7, 0% ammonia, 0% nitrite, 10% nitrates, so I don't see any obvious water issues. Some dissolved mineral? Should I boost the pH a little?


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## Schticky Schnauzer (Aug 2, 2013)

Anything from petsmart is likely mislabeled, hormoned, and a hybrid. Peacocks and Labs dont do great together, because the labs are too excitable and hyper, so the peacocks never reach full coloring. The peacocks seem to small to have gotten that much color, so hormoning is probable. *** never kept Mbuna, so I cant offer anything there. As for the scratching...I would be on the look out for Ich. My wife bought a pair of rams from them a while back, and they brought Ich with them. Nothing else was introduced to that tank but those 2 fish, and the ich was apparent within a few days.


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## rmcder (Jul 9, 2005)

Yeah, I knew that there would be issues with Petsmart; I've seen it with the New World stuff. And I'll keep an eye out for ick; so far no indication of it. For now, most everyone seems relatively happy, active, and colorful, so we'll see how things shake out. As I become less ignorant, I'll no doubt approach the tank differently! ;-)


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## Bowfront (Jun 3, 2013)

While Petsmart and Petco do get many hybrid fish, they also get some really nice specimens as well from time to time. I bought a few really beautiful Tropheus Moori and Tropheus Duboisi from there that were definitely pure bread fish and are doing great. I've also seen a lot of really nice yellow labs, red and cobalt zebras and OB peacocks there for very inexpensive prices. You just need to know what to look for.

.


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## cichliddoc (Oct 15, 2013)

Petsmart carries more common cichlids, you need to be careful, me and my family go there from time to time.
Its really funny when the workers see me, because they ask me questions all the time and want me to help customers. I've a few cichlids there that nice. One day they had frontosa (4) marked as afras, priced at 7.99.


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## Paradox057 (Oct 15, 2013)

Hi there,

I know this thread is a few months old, so you have probably learned everything that I am about to say the hard way, but for anyone else reading, I'll add my $0.02.

Firstly, Mbuna and peacocks, while possible, should not really be kept together. The agresssion of the mbuna will drive the peacocks crazy and wont allow them to color or even worse will stress them to death.

Secondly, get rid of the demasoni and the auratus. They are both super ******* aggressive fish and will eventually murder everything in your tank. The auratus IMO have no place being sold and the demasoni,really should not be housed outside of a species only tank. They are a dwarf mbuna but they are nasty! Even in species specific tanks, they really need to be kept at about a 1m to 8f ratio and even with that, you will eventually have a dead fish here and there. Just downright nasty little Napoleonic mbuna.

Lastly, PH in that tank is entirely too neutral. try buffering it to about 8.0 as that is the general PH of Malawi. (If you ever decife to keep Tanganyikans, you should push it closer to 9).

I hope that helps.


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## Pseudeotropheus BB (Jan 24, 2013)

It would be best to provide your tanks dimensions for the best recommendation. In the meantime I will provide some information however it would be wise to spend some time in the forums library as there is a wealth of information there.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/i ... n_list.php

The good news is your tank is cycled or at least your readings indicate that. First you should raise the PH to 8 however you should do this slowly over a period of days not to exceed .2 per day in order to reduce stress. Second you need to determine which type of Malawi Cichlid you want to keep, the library is your friend and will help you make a determination. Currently you have a mix of Peacocks and Mbuna which in most cases not the best scenario and in this case a terrible one. The Mbuna you currently have are the standard fare which Petsmart offers and this is usually not a good thing. Bumblebee, Kenyi and Auratus are three of the most aggressive Mbuna in the hobby and are not recommended in general and definitely not for the beginner, they are down right nasty fish. Your fish may be fine now but once they mature there will be deaths. There are quite a few beginners who make this mistake so dont feel too bad however a change should be made and you need decide which path to take. The decision is two fold. First you need to determine if you want to house Mbuna or Peacock/Hap, not both. Once you make that determination you need decide on which species you want to house in the tank, again its best to research the library here. The extreme vast majority of Mbuna hobbyists will house groupings of males and females of select species. In your case (75 gallon tank) this will either be three or four Mbuna species . This is just the basic information and I just dont have the time to go into all the detail however there is other important information that needs to be followed so hopefully others will go into finer detail or again go to the library and read up. I am more of a Mbuna keeper however Peacock/Hap male tanks are gorgeous but I will leave information in regards to their species to other more experienced hobbyists.


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## rmcder (Jul 9, 2005)

Thank you for the continuing help/information.

Paradox057, I think you confused my joining date for my posting date. This thread is about a week old, and my stock dates back no more than two weeks; so I most definitely hadn't learned all that you had to say! ;-) The same, of course, goes for Pseudotropheus' comments (and this is a standard 75g: 48"x18"x20").

At this point, I'm leaning toward peacocks/haps, and preferably an all-male tank; I really have no interest in dealing with fry. I'd like to think that the labs would be ok in a peacock/hap tank, though? Do we have any peacock/hap folks reading?

For now, I'm dealing with small fish, and I view this a temporary situation to keep the tank active. I'll rehome things as it becomes necessary, and by next spring, I should be in a better position to make intelligent choices and changes. In the meantime, I guess I'll be doing a lot of studying... ;-)


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## JPM2091 (Feb 7, 2007)

You will very likely have issues with that combination as they mature, however, sometimes people can find a composition that works for them which generally hasn't worked for others. I feel compelled to say that I highly doubt the composition you have now will work--there are way too many aggressive fish in that tank which will only become more aggressive as they mature.

The most concerning thing you mentioned which needs to be addressed ASAP is your pH. It should be at least 7.8, probably more like 8.0-8.2. Neutral pH (7.0) is way too low for any African Cichlid.

Good luck and enjoy!


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## rmcder (Jul 9, 2005)

JPM2091, where are you in NY? I'm about 60 miles north of NYC.

You know, the pH thing is why I originally steered away from African cichlids. I'd been told (recently) that tank-bred fish probably are no longer in high pH water; so I didn't consider it an issue. Petsmart's water is, of course, around a pH of 7. I guess I'm going to have to consider throwing in some small chunks of coral or something.

As to stock, I doubt that in a year it'll look anything like it does now. I'm trying to identify peacocks and haps which will max out at 6" or less, and am trying to group basic coloration into categories so I can avoid (most) conspecific aggression. Again, I figure to have all males. At some point, I'm going to put up a list of stuff I'm looking at so you guys can help me eliminate potential problems.


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## JPM2091 (Feb 7, 2007)

I'm in NYC, but I went to college upstate!

You definitely want to keep your pH at 7.8 despite whatever you've been told. Even if they can survive in pH that low, they won't thrive (which is what we want right? =P). You'll see MUCH better color with pH around 8.

I'd recommend Kent Cichlid Buffer to get your water chemistry to where it needs to be for your Africans. I've used it for years, and it works like a charm. I'm confident your LFS will have it. Just follow the dosing directions on the back and you'll have a stable pH of 7.8.

I also suggest testing the tap water at your house so you know what effect water changes are going to have on your pH (allowing you to adjust your pH buffer dosing).


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## rmcder (Jul 9, 2005)

Tap water is right around a pH of 7. So ok, I did a water change, and between last night and today, brought the pH up a little; I think it's right around 7.3. I have a couple of very small crumbs of coral on the bottom. I'm looking at my tank, and nearly every fish is swimming in the upper half of the tank; weird! Wonder if they're avoiding the (presumably) higher pH around the coral crumbs?

Thanks for the tip on the buffer material; I'll look into it.

Oh, and one potential problem has been avoided. The demasoni I thought was sick, apparently was. Found it dead this morning.


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## rmcder (Jul 9, 2005)

Ok, as usual, the more I read, the more things to consider...

75 gallon tank 48" x 18" footprint. Lots of filtration (I think), Aquaclear 110 plus Eheim 2217. Because of tank size, and a need to crowd the fish because of aggression issue, I figure I have to use fish which are on the small side. I like the idea of peacocks/haps, but they tend not to be particularly small when fully grown, and if I want the color, I have to go with males. That means conspecific aggression issues suggest I have to have singles of several different varieties. THAT means, if I want to set up the tank with juveniles and let them grow out, I have to put this all together, all at once. The more I think about that, the harder it seems to accomplish.

So... My alternative is to think about mbuna and general color schemes rather than individual fish colors. Yellow and orange is easy. Blue is a little harder. Saulosi would give me blue and yellow/orange, but a lot less blue. Could I fill in more blue with cyanerhabdos (both sexes blue), or would that lead to aggression between the male saulosi and the cyanerhabdos? Or maybe go demasoni with yellow labs; or cyanerhabdos with yellow labs; or either with female saulosi? For red/violet, add rusties to the mix? I could really use some help here from mbuna folks!


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## cichliddoc (Oct 15, 2013)

You have a couple choices with popular combinations, 1 the dem/ lab tank about 15-20 dems and 8-10 labs (white or yellow or albino) the large number is due to aggression, saddly they weed themselves down some, beautiful tank, 2 crazy aggressive tank, kenyi, labs, bumble bee, Johanni, etc. You could do an a male tank of crazy fun,3 the mixed community tank, labs, zebras,acei, afra, and other semi aggressive fish. I have the third choice and its really nice, once and awhile things don't work but that's with any tank;, I hope this helps, everybody does things differently, so its your turn. Good luck.


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## rmcder (Jul 9, 2005)

A follow-up for you cichliddoc (or anyone else who'd care to chime in)... The dems, it seems, are beautiful, but homicidal. I just got rid of a homicidal 4" female salvini who killed or intimidated every fish in the tank regardless of size; so I'm not sure I'm ready for a repeat. ;-) That also eliminates the "crazy aggressive tank" from consideration. Where are saulosi and cyanerhabdos on the aggression scale, and would they coexist do you think? I certainly like the demasoni/male saulosi color pattern and would like to include it in my tank, but I could live with cyanerhabdos only if I had to. If labs can deal with dems, I assume these guys would not be an issue. Rusties work with all the combinations? Zebras?


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## Floridagirl (Jan 10, 2008)

Saulosi, White Labs, Maingano, Rusties!


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## amcvettec (May 11, 2012)

Male Cyanerhabdos tend to be more aggressive with their females so stock 1M:7F. Saulosi are one of the more mild-mannered mbuna which is why they are the top choice recommended for smaller tanks. Saulosi are typically tolerable of more than one male in the tank so the 75g should allow you to stock 3M:12F.

I would not stock red zebra (estherae) in the tank due to the close similar color to the saulosi females. Rusties would work great with the above two species. Stock 1M:5F.

The combo of Saulosi and Demasoni most likely would not work due to both males being blue-barred so I would avoid that mix.

If you will be stocking one species at a time, start with the Saulosi since they will be the most timid. IF you buy juvies - the trick is to purchase double the amount of females you want to end up with then remove extra males as they mature.


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## rmcder (Jul 9, 2005)

Thank you both for the additional ideas and information. These fish are all smallish, but how many full-grown versions of these can a 75g support without running into serious bioload issues? The high F/M ratio for the maingano has me a little concerned about overall numbers.


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## amcvettec (May 11, 2012)

3-4 breeding groups is the typical recommendation with Mbuna for a 75g. With the Aquaclear and the Eheim, I think you will be fine. Is the tank already cycled?


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## rmcder (Jul 9, 2005)

amcvettec said:


> 3-4 breeding groups is the typical recommendation with Mbuna for a 75g. With the Aquaclear and the Eheim, I think you will be fine. Is the tank already cycled?


I'm coming from New World cichlids and have been running the tank for nine years. I figure it's pretty well cycled by now! :lol:


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## k7gixxerguy (Jan 12, 2012)

Paradox057 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I know this thread is a few months old, so you have probably learned everything that I am about to say the hard way, but for anyone else reading, I'll add my $0.02.
> 
> ...


While demasoni are a challenge, their aggression has always been conspecific aggression in my experience. The balance is hard to achieve with other dems or blue and black barred species. Have you ever even kept dems paradox? If so, what with, what kind of setup, how much and what kind of territories, etc. Im not saying that you couldnt have had a severely nasty grouping but I think that you are greatly overstating their aggression as far as towards other species. Just my 2 cents.


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