# TDS values in Lake Tanganyika



## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

I found a great read on water chemistry of Lake Tanganyika.Also explains issues of suppliers using excess salt, how the stress affects the fish,and the difficulty they acclimate to different conditions.

http://www.tbas1.com/Exchange/The%20New ... d%2011.pdf

I just measured my TDS in my tanks yesterday and they were all in the 400s

This could explain why I have to acclimate fish slowly from suppliers that may have much higher TDS.But since I send fish to others as well I don't really want to increase it as fish do better going into higher TDS than lower.

My tap is 85ppm

lake Tanganyika is around 600PPM


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## jrf (Nov 10, 2009)

Interesting article. Osmotic shock has always seemed more plausible than pH shock to me. HereÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s another good article on the topic: pH Shock and the Wives?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

From the link:

_One of the most characteristic aspects of stress in fish is osmoregulatory disturbance, which is related to the effects of both catecholamine and cortisol hormones. The extent of the disturbance following stress depends upon the ionic and osmotic gradients (difference) between the internal fluids of the fish and its surrounding environment (water). *If the stress is persistent and of sufficient intensity, changes in the cellular structure of the gills may occur under the influence of cortisol. In this situation, increased death and turnover rates of branchial epithelial cells leads to accelerated aging of the gills. These degenerating and newlyformed gill cells do not function normally, which further limits the fishÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s ability to maintain water and ion homeostasis under stressful conditions. Thus, acute stress limits the fishÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s capacity to osmoregulate, and prolonged periods of extreme stress may result in osmotic shock and death.*_

It says the same thing as the other source in the other thread. Stress kills the fish by damaging the gills via the release of cortisol. If a fish has been so stressed that damage has occured to the gills to the extent that it is having trouble with osmorgulation, then acclimating via the drip method could help the fish survive for a while, but not necessarily undo damage or ensure long term survival. I'd be interested to know if this gill damage can be reversed. If so, then it might support the idea of drip acclimation for any fish that have been known to undergo servere stress. If a fish needs to be acclimated slowly to survive, then it suggests that it arrived in a weakened or damaged state. I'm choosy about where I get my fish and how I ship them in, so maybe that's why I don't have to acclimate via drip method. And I've not experienced mysterious fish deaths over time, so there's really no problem to solve, in my case. Actually, I have experienced mysterious deaths over time with the occasional purchase from a local retailer. One of the reasons I don't buy from them any more.

I'd like to relate a personal experience that I thought of the other day. I used to breed and ship triglachromis otostigma. Now I had shippped many fish prior with virtually no losses, But these guys really were hyper fish, and stressed out when bagged and boxed. Any movement of the box caused them to bounce around in the bags like little jumping beans. It was freaky, I'm sure, for anyone who handled the box on it's journey. I always added a fish or two because I could guarantee there'd be a DOA or two every time, no matter how I shipped or who I shipped with. Little doubt that stress killed them. The release of the hormones like cortisol did it's damage quickly. I stopped shipping them because I knew they just weren't good candidates for it. I have no idea how they were acclimated by the buyer, but never heard back that they had suffered any further losses.



> This could explain why I have to acclimate fish slowly from suppliers that may have much higher TDS.But since I send fish to others as well I don't really want to increase it as fish do better going into higher TDS than lower.


You could drive yourself crazy with that. I hope TDS meters don't become part of the required equipment for keeping fish alive. They have their place, though, I'd agree. I've thought of getting one myself.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

Another great article jrf !!

prov356 wrote


> You could drive yourself crazy with that. I hope TDS meters don't become part of the required equipment for keeping fish alive. They have their place, though, I'd agree. I've thought of getting one myself.


Yeah and I am crazy enough as it is. For a $20 purchase on ebay I think it will be worth it to check tap vs tank every once in awhile.Also now I see why I have to add water slowly when I do 40-50% water change and add buffer/cichlid salt in 2 half doses during filling.If I do it quicker I have some fish shake and show irritation.I might use it too when I receive fish to see if acclimation is even needed.

As for fish being able to reverse gill damage after drip acclimation that is tough to say.I have seen fish that had severe ick or ammonia burn that recovered but I guess it all depends on the fish,extent of damage,and how long it was subject to stress.

What I find interesting is how many wholesalers and retailers still salt their fresh water tanks heavily.When I worked at a LFS 10 years ago we used salt for the goldfish and koi b/c it did prevent higher losses but probably b/c our supplier was salting too and this made out tds closer to theirs.If the importers/wholesalers stopped using salt I believe everyone down the supply chain would not have to use it and the fish health would be much better.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Also now I see why I have to add water slowly when I do 40-50% water change and add buffer/cichlid salt in 2 half doses during filling.If I do it quicker I have some fish shake and show irritation.I might use it too when I receive fish to see if acclimation is even needed.


Why the shaking and irritation? What specifically is going on in your water that would cause this?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

dmiller328 said:


> What I find interesting is how many wholesalers and retailers still salt their fresh water tanks heavily.


I read that some of the chain stores use salt because they do not cycle and it helps counteract problems with ammonia and nitrite short-term.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

> Why the shaking and irritation? What specifically is going on in your water that would cause this?


The main fish that would do this is Paracyprichromis, some Cyprichromis,and C.furcifer in grow out.

I think it is caused by the filling my tanks straight from the tap too quickly with my python hose since there is quite a bit of TDS difference from the tank and low tds tap.The chlorine from the tap is unmeasurable and I use prime just to be safe.Temp matched within a couple of degrees

In the future I am wanting to use a plastic drum for preconditioned water and I am sure there would be 0 irritation even if I do a huge water change very fast.

*Djransome wrote:*



> I read that some of the chain stores use salt because they do not cycle and it helps counteract problems with ammonia and nitrite short-term.


I can kind of see why they would during cycling but I still see cups of dissolving rock salt in every tank at a chain store that has had tanks running for many years.I think it comes down to their bottom line as it prevents loss from receiving fish from suppliers that use salt.They also believe that salt helps prevent parasite and bacterial infection.Then the customer brings the "healthy looking" fish home to find the fish dead within a couple of days or with a disease from the stress they dealt with in high tds water and the change to much lower tds water.

Even Discus and other soft water fish are known to handle a change to higher tds water than the other way around.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I think it is caused by the filling my tanks straight from the tap too quickly with my python hose since there is quite a bit of TDS difference from the tank and low tds tap


Why TDS? Why do you suppose it would make the fish do that? I would agree there's some irritant in the source water, but why TDS? That's not really an irritant. Why not something else unknown and not easily measureable? Some chemical process that's going on.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

We can rule out pH difference,chlorine,and temp as not irritating them.So it leaves only TDS or hardness difference , an unknown irritant in the tap water or some chemical process of the cichlid salt mixing in the tank.Why though only affecting certain species if it was an irritant?

From the research a sudden lowering of TDS can cause cells to burst in the gills and on the fish.I believe the fish would show irritation if that happened or the cells expanded without bursting.

All I know is slowing the filling rate down some and dosing the buffer/cichlid salt in half doses fixes the issue.If there was an irritant in the water it should still be there even if filled slower.

Having the water preconditioned in a barrel should take care of the issue of large water changes whatever the issue may be for me.


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## ebjdftw (Aug 24, 2010)

thats a good read. thank you for sharing that.


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## shellies215 (Jan 7, 2011)

*Djransome wrote:*



> I read that some of the chain stores use salt because they do not cycle and it helps counteract problems with ammonia and nitrite short-term.


I can kind of see why they would during cycling but I still see cups of dissolving rock salt in every tank at a chain store that has had tanks running for many years.I think it comes down to their bottom line as it prevents loss from receiving fish from suppliers that use salt.They also believe that salt helps prevent parasite and bacterial infection.Then the customer brings the "healthy looking" fish home to find the fish dead within a couple of days or with a disease from the stress they dealt with in high tds water and the change to much lower tds water.

Even Discus and other soft water fish are known to handle a change to higher tds water than the other way around.[/quote]

When you see the cups of salt in the tanks, it is usually for two reasons: #1 to sell more aquarium salt, and #2 Those are usually "constant turnover systems" so the tds and salt does not ever "build up". The tap water flows in through a series of chemical filtration units, and flows out into the sewer drain as "grey water" at a set GPH, with a seperate re-circ pump in the system. Many of these stores used to use the giant bio tubs in the back room, but disease spread, and total fish loss led to the newer systems. I can't say this is the case in every chain store, but I can tell you I've seen it first hand.


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