# 40g sump design



## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

I am currently building a 40g long sump with a grow out chamber that is roughly 20g.

*however, the plexiglass is about 1/8" to narrow. 
i already siliconed this with a lot of silicone but should i be 
concern that it will flex or possibly buckle under water pressure?*

i havent tested it yet. im waiting for it to fully cure so i can put water in it.
then i can finish the rest of the chambers.

heres a pic of my design.
im using a 1000+gph to divert flow to the main tank and the grow out tank will
be controlled with a ball valve but i will only use a nozzle for the return instead of 
a spraybay in the pic.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

I have been using a design very similar to that and am getting good results. Remember that water will be on both sides off the plexi at least as high as the pump chamber so pressure will not be too great. I cannot say how the plexi will perform as I use 1/4" float glass for the baffles.

I am curious how well this works. Keep us informed :thumb:


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

the grow out tank chamber is only 14".
and the sump chamber is 6". so theres 8" to the top that will not
have opposite pressure. i used plenty on silicone hoping it will
do the job.

on the other note, im also thinking of using crushed corals to help
buffer the water and maybe use plants also on the grow out side to help
with water quality. i've read the crushed corals loses its buffering after some time and 
i need a lot of plants to help with water. i may not have enough room for the
plants and **** on the right side.


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

oops! somethings wrong with my computer.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

I loaded ours with swords and wysteria. Stuff is growin like weeds.

I was going to use plexi but opted for float glass. Another thing you might consider is to put a stiffenner (is that a word?) on one side before filling with water. Could be anything like another strip of plexi or piece of pvc or whatever is available in your scrooge bucket. Remember the water will be on the warm side and plexi gets flexible when warm.


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## mightyevil (Oct 23, 2008)

I think that the return chamber will be too small and will need to fill it constantly so your pump does not run dry. You may want to consider an ATO system for it.


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## ksk_che_che (Sep 26, 2007)

My thoughts exactly.


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

i have another plexi that may be an inch taller but thats it.
well what i can do if it requires constant filling is raise the water
level in the chamber during operation.

i tested the growout side and bio side and it seems to be holding
water. i will let it sit for a day or two but it looks like its not plexing at all.


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## ksk_che_che (Sep 26, 2007)

Yes you can raise the last baffle before the return higher, BUT that will almost completely remove your wet/dry. The purpose of that baffle being that low is so you dont flood the wet/dry full of water, which would still work but would not be a wet/dry any longer. That baffle sets the size of your wet/dry compartment. The higher you can start the wet/dry chamber and the higher you keep it off the bottom the better your sump will be. This will maximize the height and capacity of your return section. And you can also fill the space below the wet/dry with extra biomedia. I dont think trusting your entire bio-loa on a wet/dry is very smart, if your pump stops working you will lose all your bacterial growth. Some biomedia should be fully submerged IMO.


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

my other plexi was actually the same height.
i just saw your design also. it looks practically the same as mine.
anyways, i will copy what you did to the pump. i will use a 90degree elbow on
the pump. i will cut it shorter so its about 1/2" above the floor.
this should give me another 1+1.5" for safety.

about 2" of my biomedia will actually be submerged.
the rest will be above water, plus i also have biostones that will
be in both side of the pump wall (shortest chamber) along with 
the charcoal bags. 200watt heater will also be below the 
biomedia chamber and a 250watt inside the tank. i like having 2 heaters
instead of one for safety measure just incase one fails.

no leaks so far and still holding. no going back now. 
just installed the last chamber.
due to the amount of silicone (and its white) im covering the silicone lines
with blue tape to hide the ugly silicones.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

ksk_che_che said:


> The purpose of that baffle being that low is so you dont flood the wet/dry full of water, which would still work but would not be a wet/dry any longer. That baffle sets the size of your wet/dry compartment.


The wet/ dry level will be as high as you set your operating water level or as *low* as the baffle.

The purpose of that baffle is to set a limit to the capacity of your pump chamber so you do not overflow the display in the event of overflow failure. It also helps to remove bubbles but for the most part setting ot too low allows more volume to be sent up to the display and under certain circumstances this could overflow the display.


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## ksk_che_che (Sep 26, 2007)

Having it too low makes more volume? That doesnt make sense, could you explain? 
To me, having it too low means your pump will have a tendancy to run dry more often due to evaporation. Having it too low wont make your pump pump any faster or your overflows any less.

As long as the return section is big enough and you have the right sized wet/dry chamber this design can work. If this wont you could always do away with the dry and be a full wet sump.

As I said before, that is my point to a drawback of a setup like this. Having the wet/dry in the sump takes away from the height of your return section. Like mightyevil and I suggested, his return looked too small.


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

well all the chambers are siliconed so i can not 
make the return side wider. its a new 40g tank and i dont really want
to go around removing the silicones. i may end up damaging the bottom silicones
and i dont really want that.
any suggestions? i should've post the pic before i finished it.
it was just stock in my head that i want the growout to be 20g
and didnt think to make the return side wider.

my other sump was a wet/wet and it was a pain to 
clean under the biomedia. i had to remove all of them to
get the waste underneath. thats why i opted for this design. i will be putting 
the biomedia in a window type of screen so i can easily remove them when i want
to vacuum under them.

well hopefully the 90degree elbow will be ok. theoretically, i can have 
my water level at about 1" before i start adding water right?


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## ksk_che_che (Sep 26, 2007)

Not enough filter floss then if debri is getting to the bioballs, unless your talking algea blobs?

1" No, the pump would suck to fast causing cavitation. It will get pretty close though, that just gives you a little more room in the return, not much considering your return size. But hay its something!


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

ksk_che_che said:


> Having it too low makes more volume? That doesnt make sense, could you explain?


That baffle is basically a bubble trap. But it does other things which can be useful. You size the volume of the pump well so you do not overflow the DT with this baffle, that is its primary and most important function. You can use standpipes on the pump to fine tune this volume if you goofed.

It does not determine operating level. You determine operating level by filling the DT until it overflows and fills your sump to a level you feel comfortable with, and you mark this level. Turn your pump(s) on, let the waterlevel stabilize and this is your operating level, mark it, use this line as an evap top off MAX . It will not in most cases be the height of that baffle and usually is higher. The lower the baffle is the more bio chamber volume is available to overflow the DT if that is possible.

Ideally this baffle would be at the operating level height or close to it but that would require reverse engineering to calculate and most of us do the math first and get as close to a "ball park" volume number and baffle our sumps and the waterlevel is what is is and for the most part you run what you brung from there on out.


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

thats what i was saying. if it requires constant filling, i can always
raise my operating level. unfortunately, this will increase the height of 
the water in the bio chamber but hopefully not much.

im not about to gut this sump but im open for other solutions.

i believe somebody called the debris, "mulm".

right now the 90deg is has about .5" between the sump floor.
is this ok or will it cause the cavitation your refering to. no idea
what cavitation is this hobby. care to explain?


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

Your operating level is what it is, you can raise it but at the risk of going over your Pump_Off upper limit. This limit could be conservatively established or aggressively set to hold more volume in the system.

What it looks like you need to do is first find your Pump_Off and Pump_On levels as suggested earlier or however you felt comfortable doing this in the past and see how much your Bio chamber remains submerged. Then you can make educated modifications as necessary if even needed.

If your bio is too submerged you could raise them a bit. Very simple, best solution on the quick.

I would only use an elbow on the pump if it were absolutely necessary. Just use the cage that is usually supplied and or a prefilter if one is included. You do not want to add restrictions to the inlet side of your pumps. JMHO.


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

thanks for the reply.

my 125g tank only empties about 3g when the pump goes off.
also if it does flood the pump chamber, water will be re-directed to the 
bio chamber and even back to the grow-out side because the plexis
are below the frame. 
grow out side is 1" below and bio is 3" below. so if 
the water level rises in the return side it will go over the bio plexi first 
before it actually floods the floor.


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## ksk_che_che (Sep 26, 2007)

mel_cp6 said:


> thanks for the reply.
> 
> my 125g tank only empties about 3g when the pump goes off.
> also if it does flood the pump chamber, water will be re-directed to the
> ...


That is exactly what you want it to do! Thats why you place that inner return baffle to the height just below your wet/dry chamber. You understand it now, when the pumps turn off and water emptys from the tubes it will flood the return section first, then continue to rise into the wet/dry. It wont flood the fuge untill it reaches the inner baffle of it. Then if it continues to rise you have a problem.

And fox, I still dont understand what your saying. The baffle heights will not make the pump pump faster or slower.
And the baffle heights will not make the water flow faster or slower into that section. Your pump is the deciding benifactor on how much water goes through the system.

But you are right about 2 things. 
1: The inlet side restriction - thats why you get a very strong pump. That was just an idea if things got to the worse. Perfectly fine to do just lowers the gph of the pump.

Its sounds like Mel, you might be safe to run without one from what you've just said.

2: The return section - it has to have enough volume to handle the backflow from the pipes and he must also keep the running water height in the return low enough that if his overflows in the display tank failed that he wouldnt pump too much water in.

#2 is def a must with DIY or HOB overflows. Not so much for pre-drilled tanks.

I guess I just assumed he knew that much already. :-? All this work to get rid of the "mulm" ....lol

If you measure the height difference from your overflow height to the height of your inner frame on the tank, then measure the inner tank dimentions you can roughly calculate how many gallons should be in your return. Roughly because you still have a little space inside the overflow.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

ksk_che_che said:


> And fox, I still dont understand what your saying. The baffle heights will not make the pump pump faster or slower.
> And the baffle heights will not make the water flow faster or slower into that section. Your pump is the deciding benifactor on how much water goes through the system.


I am lost with your line of reasoning ... you keep mentioning how to make a pump pump faster. Please explain to me how a baffle makes a pump more efficient and pump faster, ya lost me there. I can not understand how you can get more power outta your pumps by setting a baffle height. Could you please show me how the pump work "faster" this way? Mine only work at one speed.

I could use this knowledge as I have a pump that is about 400gph short of what is needed how high or low would I make this baffle to get your faster pumping out of the ol girl? You could save me a few bucks. Thanx :thumb: opcorn:


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## ksk_che_che (Sep 26, 2007)

A siphon would be the only way to make your overflows flow more but you pump probably would not keep up. A closed loop system would be the only way - closed loop = no air in the plumbing. 
Dont ask me how to set one up I never have, but with a closed loop you have no head loss so your pump will pump its maximum.


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

> I guess I just assumed he knew that much already. All this work to get rid of the "mulm" ....lol


its not only because of the mulm. 
my 30g wet/wet sump leaked and i also have a 20g that i was going to use as a sump for my 75g that are now currently housing 50+frontosa ****. 
so i figure why not make a sump that can accomodate the **** as well.
this way, i dont have to keep transfering **** to a different tank. 
plus it may be more efficient to run it this way. it means, 1 less heater, filter and air pump assuming it works.

so theres numerous reasons why i making this. sump leaked, grow out tank, efficiency, wanted a wet/dry, possibly planted fuge and ease of cleaning the mulm.

i think my only mistake was making the return chamber to narrow. 
its around 6x7x12". i should've made it 6x10x12" but like i said to late now.

i will post pics sometime today if i can.


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## ksk_che_che (Sep 26, 2007)

With those extra inches you lost roughly a gallon. But the way a wet/dry works your sump should be fine. If there ever was a power failure, your wet/dry would then fill with water saving your bacteria from dying off. I see that as a plus. You will have to wait and see how much evaporation you have so you know roughly when it needs to be topped off. Depends on how well the sump is covered, but I'm going to say it would be ready for water change before it needs to be topped off, so when you make your regular water changes you just add that much more.

Could you show some pics of your operating and non-operating heights?


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

i wont be able to post a pic of it in operation just yet. im missing one 1" coupling.

but here's a pic of it now.
good thing when i did my stand i decided to only attach the 3 studs with the screw from the front. this way i can remove them when i need to remove the sump.
dont worry about the stand its hidden behind a couch.


















heres a pic of my 75g im working on btw.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Looking good :thumb: 
Keep giving updates, if you would.


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

all the plumbing are done.
hopefully no leaks. just waiting for pvc the glue
to dry and it should be running by next week.
i hope everything work as planned.


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## edemirci1 (Mar 15, 2010)

thanks


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

heres some update.
it looks like the return is dropping about 1" of water height.
it will require to be filled back up every 3 days or risk running dry.

since its a new tank i dont really want to remove the last 3 panels just to move them about 6"
to the right.

heres my idea.
1. use a top off kit. (to pricey though and still need a bucket)
2. use a 5g bucket with a pump connected to a timer.
3. put another plexi to the right of grow out side and use this a the top off chamber.

im leaning towards 3 for many reasons.
its same as option 2 but within the sump.
no risk of bucket flooding the sump incase of failure.
water (if any) will be going back to the bio chamber if pump never went off.
i can size the top off chamber accordingly. can handle a week of top off if needed. 
no need to gut the sump. 
can still add top off kit in the future.

anyways, what do you guys think?
unfortunately its to late to fix the problem but
looking for other solution without having to gut the sump.









line with arrow is the tube connected to a small powerhead.
do you guys think i can use a 1/8" air line with a control valve to reduce flow.

btw, option 2 is to sell it and make a new one.
***lesson learned, make the return chamber wider next time*** :wink:


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

Is the sump open on top to air? Getting glass or plexi panels on there if it is open should lengthen the time between top offs to where you might not need to. Also is the display covered?

Can your sump accomodate 3 gallons without overflowing the display. That would lengthen the top off time and having the bio balls partially submerged is not the end of the world. There is a LFS here with a 500 gallon cichlid tank using a 75 gallon sump filled with bioballs and they are all submerged and floating around. One of the cleanest and healthiest tanks I have seen.

You could ditch the Bioballs for pond media mesh and have the bio chamber fully submerged and raise the sump level. I would not give up on that sump until you have exhausted a few solutions, this way the next sump you design will build off what you have "figured out does not work". :thumb:


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

right now it is open. i havent moved the **** yet so the 20g canopy is on the 20g.
main tank is also covered.
the tank drains about 3 gallons when power goes out.

im thinking of raising operating level but im also going away for a week or more in 
july. so i will need a top of at some time. right now i dont want to spend more money 
that i dont have.

i may get a plexi glass to cover the inlet chamber too.
i can cut out openings for the drains and return line i suppose.


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

well i just installed another panel. this will be the top off chamber.
i think i might as well build a ato kit since i was going to use one in the 
future anyways. i will be on a 2wk holiday in the summer and i will
definitely need one. 
for the meantime i will just manually top it off.
it kind of worked out i guess. i like having the idea of 
the ato kit. im may significantly reduce maintanace of water.


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## mel_cp6 (Feb 3, 2009)

heres some more updates.
thanks for all the members that helped btw.
much appreciated.

i made a bag out of window screen for the biomedia. it makes them easier to remove
when i have to clean underneath.









heres the other panel installed. 
**** are settling in very well. just need to get ato kit and it should be all done.


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