# think there sick ? but dunno



## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

so we ended up getting 2 happ 44's one is male and other was female and we also got 3 chinese algea eaters aswell as a synodontis, we have 2 small apple snails and about 15 or so mollies and one small regular algea eater before putting in the happs and synodontis and chinese algea eaters....

had em in for about 4 days now ad the female has died, and the male hasnt been acting normal like he was before, everything else is doing ok in the tank, *** checked the ammonia and it at 0 and the hp level is 7.6-7.8 give or take a little...and water temp is at 81 or 82deg

the synodontis and happ 44 have something all over there body it seems, almost looks like small air bubbles or like a fuzzy substance or mold like stuff but it isnt green or anything more of a white colour to it .... i took pics with my cell so they arent the greatest... i will post them in a minute after i figure out how... but what do you guys think is going on here ??

the tank and water itself is very clean looking as well,, any help would be great

thanks rob


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)




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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

That, to me, looks like a full blown case of Ich, AKA white spot. I'd start by raising the temp to 86F, and adding aquarium salt to the amount of 1 tablespoon every ten gallons.


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

hmmm, i rear you are able to epsom salts for aquirums... the tank is roughly 65-70gallons...

temp it at a 81 or 82 at the moment.... what causes "itch" like how can i prevent it again... not really any close petstores for fish near me we bought these fish from big al's which is hour away


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

That does not look good at all. I am sorry to see your fish like that.


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

ok well have the temp up at 86 or 87 degress now, but we dont have any aquarium salt for it ..... i have read the you can use espom salt but is that true ??

i have a feeling that there all gonna die, as some of the smaller mollies are starting to rub there face's on the pots and glass now...


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

Epsom salt can;t hurt as magnesium has a number of healing properties, but its nothing like salt. You should have some aquarium salt handy. For the moment you can use ordinary table salt as a replacement. I would only put in 1 teaspoon for 20 gallons of table salt thou.

You really should pop out and get yourself some ich medication. Hear are some checmicals to look for when at your LFS (local fish shop)

Methylene Blue - this is a hemoglobin transfer agent so on top of helping take care of ich it will allow the fish to breath a lot easier which is a major problem with ich. Downside of this product is its blue and can stain silicon and airlines.

malachite green - great for general ich on most fish, you need to know your tank levels are good before adding this one thou.

I would take the fish out and put them in a bath (small containiner) do the bath below. It has helped people save far gone fish in the past.



> For severe infections (especially with sensitive fish such as Clown Loaches) I would recommend a bath in Methylene Blue for as many fish as I could capture (especially the really sick ones that tend die quicker from ich such as Clown Loaches again). This bath will also help with the main reason ich kills (at least in my opinion), depletion of oxygen from damage to the gills (methylene blue is a hemoglobin transfer agent). To prepare this bath I use 1 teaspoon 2.303% solution per 5 gallons (double dose) in a bath of aquarium water from the tank the fish you wish to treat came from, I usually use about a Ã‚Â½ gallon of water, however you may use less. I also recommend about one teaspoon of salt (Sodium Chloride) per gallon of dip water to aid further in aiding the fish via production of more mucous, and yes Clown Loaches CAN tolerate some salt, just not a lot Please reference this article for research proving this: Ã¢â‚¬Å"Salt in Freshwater AquariumsÃ¢â‚¬Â


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Kosher and sea salt that you use for food work as well. Just make sure there are no anti-caking agents in the salt. It will clearly say it in the ingredients if there are anti-caking agents.

Also....Be sure to gravel vac all your substrate once a day and re-adding salt but pre-dissolve it before adding to tank.

Also...I would keep the tank as dark as possible except for a few minutes a day to inspect and feed a bit if they are eating.

Continue this for a minimum of 5 days after you last see any ICH on the fish.

PS.....90 degrees if possible for you heater to reach that is optimal as it will kill the ICH outright as soon as it falls off the fish. 86 keeps it from reproducing but anything over 89.7 will kill it outright ONLY when it falls off the fish. While it is attached to the fish virtually nothing will kill it that won't kill the fish as well.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*Rob1984*
Did you add all these fish at once? And did you cycle the tank before adding fish? E.g. Waiting three weeks after putting so e fish food in the tank to rot?

Your fish have both Ich, bacterial infections, early pop eye and more... Only time i ever see fish give in to every single opportunistic pathogen like this is from ammonia and nitrite poisoning...


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

So far we have cranked up temp, and added 3 teaspoons (70gallon tank)

Once we get some aquarium salt then from local shop IF they have it that is very small place, do I add the aquarium salt to the show tank ? And leave fish in or add salt and move ALL fish to a different tank, with X amount of water and then the X amount of chemicals ya listed below, sorry this is all new for me I've NEVER had a ich problem with prior fish before


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

The mollies were in there for a few years before adding anything, we then added a little algea eater, and 2 small apple snails, and then couple weeks we've added the 2 happ 44's as well as the synodontis.....

I've check the ammonia level, and ph level and it all good as stated in my first post


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

Heater is turned up to 33.5 celcius.....how do I get the stuff fall off the fish ?? Once it falls off it should kill it being that high....


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Number6 said:


> *Rob1984*
> Did you add all these fish at once? And did you cycle the tank before adding fish? E.g. Waiting three weeks after putting so e fish food in the tank to rot?
> 
> Your fish have both Ich, bacterial infections, early pop eye and more... Only time i ever see fish give in to every single opportunistic pathogen like this is from ammonia and nitrite poisoning...


Rob1984...can you answer this before we go any further? Almost impossible to cure these fish if the tank is not cycled.


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

The tank and everything was at her mothers for 5 yrs or so, and then moved here and mollies were put in the tank after water was added and they were fine the entire time ...

The happ 44 and synodontis had to with stand a hour long drive from petstore as well.... Nothing is really close as to were I live....

But no we didn't cycle the tank before re adding the mollies in after the move....


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

33.5 is high, 30 the parasite will die. i would pull it back to 31 deg.

The tempreture cause the cells to collapse in the parasite and death. But the problem with this method is the oxygen (that the fish are having a hard time dealing obsorbing with there gills infested) is less in a high tempreture. So make sure there is a LOT of surface movement caused by filters and airstones.

I agree with Number6, the fish look like they have something else on top of white spot. The meth blue bath I suggested should help with secondary problems also. But if you see the white spot is gone but they still don;t look right, then you might need something like an antibiotic.

You water quality is crutial with treating this.. test every other day until this is gone.

Ammonia should be zero (most toxic to fish
Nitrite should be zero (second most toxic)
Nitrate should be between 5-40 normally, in your case of illness it needs to be 5-10 (not as toxic as the other 2 but evidence has shown this is still a major cause of desease)
PH should be whatever your fish can handle, for your tank I would guess around the 7.5ph Changes in ph can cause stress also.
KH is important in maintaining PH amoung other things.
GH is less important in many peoples eyes, but magnesium is important in my eyes for healthy fast healing fish amoung other things.

Do a large water change (50% or more) at the end of each treatment to:
1) remove the treatment
2) keep nitrates down
3) remove excess parasites from the substrate
4) improve water quality in general.


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

PH level is 7.6-7.8 give or take alittLe.... Ammoinia level is 0, and I dunno how to check nitrate.... ?


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

nitrite is zero too ?

Nitrate is tested using a dropper test kits like all the others. I wouldn't be using the test strips if thats what your doing.


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

the kits i have only test for ammonia and ph levels...

they are the kinda that you put water in test tubes and then add drops of a solution... and then compared the chart on a card that is provided with the kit

i dont know how to test for nitrate level ?? dont say anything in the kits i have


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Rob1984 said:


> the kits i have only test for ammonia and ph levels...
> 
> they are the kinda that you put water in test tubes and then add drops of a solution... and then compared the chart on a card that is provided with the kit
> 
> i dont know how to test for nitrate level ?? dont say anything in the kits i have


You need to get a nitrite and nitrate test kit.


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

What should my levels be at for those ??? Also what's the different between them.... And willl I need two seperate kits to check. Them both


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

yes two seperate kits, the difference is big.

Nitrite will harm fish a lot faster the nitrate.

You will need both of them thou. But if you can only afford one get the nitrite and do water changes more frequent to make sure nitrate is down.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Nodalizer said:


> yes two seperate kits, the difference is big.
> 
> Nitrite will harm fish a lot faster the nitrate.
> 
> You will need both of them thou. But if you can only afford one get the nitrite and do water changes more frequent to make sure nitrate is down.


I agree....you want nitrites at 0. Very toxic. If you have nitrite readings your tank is not cycled.


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

ok, will check my petshop here 20 mins from me, it VERY tiny..... I think my bathroom is almost as big as the fish store


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Rob1984 said:


> ok, will check my petshop here 20 mins from me, it VERY tiny..... I think my bathroom is almost as big as the fish store


Let me ask you....you said the tank was established and then you moved it to your house. Did you clean the substrate and filters as well as the filter cartridges? Did they stay wet with tank water while moved or did they dry out?


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

Ya I'll see what I can get at the semi local petstore that or I'll check petvalue as well.... And I'll test em and post my results as soon as I can


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

the pump/filter stayed wet and no didn't get cleaned..... Didn't even think we'd be getting other fish like we did either.... And it was only disconnected for few days during the move

Maybe we should take it all apart and clean it sometime this week....


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## Nodalizer (Nov 7, 2011)

I wouldn't clean it right now. Fix this problem first then look into it.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Rob1984 said:


> the pump/filter stayed wet and no didn't get cleaned..... Didn't even think we'd be getting other fish like we did either.... And it was only disconnected for few days during the move
> 
> Maybe we should take it all apart and clean it sometime this week....


NOOOOOOO!!! Please don't clean anything. I meant the opposite. If you cleaned then you removed the nitrifying bacteria that converts the fish waste from ammonia to nitrite then to nitrate.

What type of filter/s do you have on the tank?


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

Kk cool, I'll see what I can get at the petstore and test and then post my results and then we can go from there hopefully.... Or should there be something I should also buy at store when I'm there chemical to help fix/prevent this again


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

We have the Eheim classic it the type that is a tall cylinder with sponge like filters and stone or rock in it and such for filtering it the the 2215 model


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Rob1984 said:


> We have the Eheim classic it the type that is a tall cylinder with sponge like filters and stone or rock in it and such for filtering it the the 2215 model


That's a good filter. Did you drain in and let it sit for a while before filling it back up?

Just really hard to say without nitrite and nitrate test kit.

As bad as those fish look I am not sure they are going to pull through. I hope so.

PS...don't buy any chemicals to put in the tank. Just make sure you get some prime as a dechlorinator for when you do water changes. Continue to use heat and salt. Don't let the LFS try to sell you something for ICH because the medicine may kill off what little bacteria you do have.

Also...make sure while you have your temp cranked up that the surface of the water is being really agitated because the water holds less oxygen at higher temps. If not your fish will be gasping for air.


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

Nope, water was left in the filtering system... Never changed anything... Weird thing is everything was totally fine until the new fish were added 2 haps44's and the synodontis and chinese algea eaters 3 of those....

And hasn't been 5 days since they were added and now we have trouble, would it have been stress from the long ddrive and move ?? (Hour drive or more)


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

Alright, so 2morrow we will grab the testing kits and some aquirum salt.... Do ya just toss the salt in or do I need to boil water and dizzolsve it first then drop it in ???we have a 70gallon tank


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Rob1984 said:


> Alright, so 2morrow we will grab the testing kits and some aquirum salt.... Do ya just toss the salt in or do I need to boil water and dizzolsve it first then drop it in ???we have a 70gallon tank


Just add the salt...I did 1 table spoon per 5 gallons....to the water directly from the tank. I scooped some out with a large tea pitcher and added the salt...stirred and poured in the tank. Don't add it all at once. Split it into like 4 or 5 different doses and add some every 3-5 hours until you reach the full dose.

Sounds to me like the fish you added were already sick and it spread. You need to try and keep the tank dark and stress free. I would do 25% daily water changes adding salt back with the new water.

Also...your fish look really bad. You might have to resort to more extreme measure such as ICH medications. If you do go with meds...turn the heat back down slowly to 78-80 and remove your carbon from filtration if you have any.


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

so went to two pet stores and neither of them had nitrate tester kits......

but i did grab aquarium salt, and told the guy what my problem was and he mixed up some stuff to help prevent ICH as well as cure it, he says he use's it all the time ...

forget what all was in, but also told him where we got the fish and he said that the problem was were we bought them, as the Big Al's in kitchener ontario canada here use's reverse osmosis water system rather then trated tap water and such like regular people use.. he said he has alot of people that come in with problems with there fish from Big Al's....

crappy thing about that is that they have a HUGE selection, and arent very expensive.... not many fish stores around here with large selections to choose from


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

Well both haps are dead now, and it seemed like he was pretty clean when I flushed him.... So maybe it is getting cleared up or it fell off him ??......

I'm defintly not impressed..... 40 bucks out the window for nothing, guy at Big Als wouldn't even compensate us for the fish like most do...


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Rob1984 said:


> Well both haps are dead now, and it seemed like he was pretty clean when I flushed him.... So maybe it is getting cleared up or it fell off him ??......
> 
> I'm defintly not impressed..... 40 bucks out the window for nothing, guy at Big Als wouldn't even compensate us for the fish like most do...


How long did you have them before they developed this? Did your other fish have any illness before adding these new fish?

How many fish do you currently have in the tank? 
Are they all sick?

I am not sure what to tell you other than you are in a bad situation that is two fold. First....you may have a cycling issue with the tank and the other is the illness in the tank. I am not sure but you may have several infections and/or diseases.

There is no quicker way to make people sick of this hobby than to get their first tank setup and to have major issues like this. Most people throw their hands up and say it is just not worth it.

You may be better off to totally start fresh. It may be a good thing for the family to start fresh picking out your own substrate, rocks, plants and later on...fish. Just a thought.


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

we bought the fish last thursday so they were sick and have died before a full week.....

And other fish in there are 3 chinese algea eaters, one regular algea eater and then like 15 mollies or so... And the sick close to death synodontis... He has red marks on him now 

None of the other fish have signs on them of anything, they are acting and eating perfectly normal


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Rob1984 said:


> we bought the fish last thursday so they were sick and have died before a full week.....
> 
> And other fish in there are 3 chinese algea eaters, one regular algea eater and then like 15 mollies or so... And the sick close to death synodontis... He has red marks on him now
> 
> None of the other fish have signs on them of anything, they are acting and eating perfectly normal


I would absolutely not add anymore fish right now. I would allow the tank to become a bit more stable first...maybe a couple months or so.

Once it is stable...then you should be ok.


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

Ya I'm so disappointed now, I just don't care hahahaha ugh !! I won't be dissapointed if the rest die off at this point ....


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Rob1984 said:


> Ya I'm so disappointed now, I just don't care hahahaha ugh !! I won't be dissapointed if the rest die off at this point ....


I would just continue doing what you are doing with feeding normally etc....After a month or so I would then find a new home for these fish and add the ones you want. I would just do a bunch of research on this site and learn as much as you can.


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

The big synodontis is got some red lumps on him now it seems.....


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

So maybe the synodontis will make it..... Got up this morning and he has a big patch on the one side is falling off and other side there are some smaller pieces coming off as well..prolly gonna do a 30% water or more....


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Rob1984 said:


> So maybe the synodontis will make it..... Got up this morning and he has a big patch on the one side is falling off and other side there are some smaller pieces coming off as well..prolly gonna do a 30% water or more....


Yes....water changes sound like a god idea.


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

Well bad news other guy died this morning after I got back from lfs.... He was doing good but think we didn't catch it in time.... But noticed the lfs has a few bala sharks gonna get tank all fully cleaned up and all... Then gonna grab some live plants and see how the live plants do... If live plants can survive then there shouldn't be any reason why the bala sharks or any other fish can't live in it you know....


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Rob1984 said:


> Well bad news other guy died this morning after I got back from lfs.... He was doing good but think we didn't catch it in time.... But noticed the lfs has a few bala sharks gonna get tank all fully cleaned up and all... Then gonna grab some live plants and see how the live plants do... If live plants can survive then there shouldn't be any reason why the bala sharks or any other fish can't live in it you know....


I would not add any fish right now. Just because plants can survive doesn't mean the fish will be ok. Plants are not susceptible to the same diseases/cycle that fish are. Plants are much more simple lifeform.

You really need to make sure your tank is cycled. If you get more fish it will just cause the problems to worsen and it will never get better no matter how many fish you buy to replace the dead ones. The ammonia and nitrite poisoning and the stress from the aforementioned plus the diseases and bacterial infections will just continue to spread and worsen. A new fish to that current bad situation will be in MUCH WORSE shape than the fish that are already in the tank. The new fish will have to adapt from good living conditions to a very bad situation.

Please don't add fish until your tank has stabilized or you have taken it down, cleaned and cycled it.


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

Ya I know when I said I wanted them bala sharks I meant after I get the tank cleaned and **** free and all....


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Rob1984 said:


> Ya I know when I said I wanted them bala sharks I meant after I get the tank cleaned and #%$& free and all....


Yep...that makes sense.


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## TrashmanNYC (Dec 10, 2007)

Rob1984 said:


> Ya I know when I said I wanted them bala sharks I meant after I get the tank cleaned and #%$& free and all....


Bala sharks get rather large.


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

Yes I know they get big, me and my dad also had some red tail sharks too....

We have a 70gallon tank...

2morrow I'm going to drop/change water, and clean the filter out except the charcoal filter, toss some cycling medications, as well as some dechrolinator and check the levels of everything and see how everything does for a little bit before adding anything....

I'm hoping to get something that eventually gonna eat them mollies in the tank we have hahaha I don't like them, gf does but ya.... Hahahaha


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## TrashmanNYC (Dec 10, 2007)

Rob1984 said:


> Yes I know they get big, me and my dad also had some red tail sharks too....
> 
> We have a 70gallon tank...
> 
> ...


They get much bigger than red tail sharks. Red tails grow to about 6" and Bala sharks can get to 15".


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## Rob1984 (Jan 4, 2012)

Even better  .... Biggest the guy at fish shop I was in today said he has seen is 8-10" and that guy was 8yrs old..... And the red tail sharks me and dad had one was 8 or 9inchs and other 2 were about 6-8inchs


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## TrashmanNYC (Dec 10, 2007)

Rob1984 said:


> Even better  .... Biggest the guy at fish shop I was in today said he has seen is 8-10" and that guy was 8yrs old..... And the red tail sharks me and dad had one was 8 or 9inchs and other 2 were about 6-8inchs


4ft tank might be a little small for them.


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