# Bolivian Ram Question... Not sure what's wrong with him



## iLuvAngels (May 14, 2008)

I've got a Bolivian Ram that I first thought was constipated because of his swollen stomach and lack of activity. He was also laying on the substrate a lot and not swimming around like my other Bolivian Rams. 10 days ago I removed him from the main tank and put him in QT. I did not feed him for a couple of days and then gave him peas for the next few days. Well, he doesn't look as swollen now but he is still laying on the bottom of the tank a lot. He also looks as if his balance isn't too well and sometimes lays on his side. Anyone know what could be wrong? Dropsy? What should I do?

I can't take a picture of him but his coloring is fine, there isn't anything visibly wrong with his body and he doesn't look bad physically. I just don't know what else to do.

Thanks


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Try epsom salt. one cup per 100 gallons...


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## iLuvAngels (May 14, 2008)

Thanks, He is in a 5 gallon quarantine tank so should I add something like a teaspoon? How often should I change the water when epsom salt is added?


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

I'm a big fan of multiple water changes. I would change 10% daily. Keep that temp for him around 86. They like it warm... Make sure he's got a bubble wall in there. Warm, highly oxygenated water is good. My guess would be what ever a 1/16th of a cup is? LOL Sorry, my quaranteen tanks are in the 20-70 gallon range...


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## duds (Apr 16, 2010)

1 cup = 250 mL, 1 cup per 100 gallon translates to 2.5 mL per gallon. Your 5 gallon tank would require 12.5 mL. If you don't have metric measuring spoons, google tells me that 12.5 mL = 0.845350568 tbsp.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Nice one duds!


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## duds (Apr 16, 2010)

I do what I can :thumb:


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## iLuvAngels (May 14, 2008)

Thanks. I've been adding the epsom salt and making small water changes as advised. Not sure if he'll make it though. Sometimes when I check on him he is laying upright and other times he is laying on his side.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

As long as he doesn't go upside down we're doing ok. It's when they go belly up when it's over and RARELY will they bounce back...


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## iLuvAngels (May 14, 2008)

So there is some hope left? What about feeding him? Should I continue to just give him a small amount of peas every day? I really hope I can get him to bounce back.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

I would not feed for a couple of three or four days.


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## iLuvAngels (May 14, 2008)

It's been about 2 weeks now that he is laying on his side off and on. How long will it take for me to know whether or not he is going to be okay? I'm wondering if the bubble wall plus the filter (just a small azoo filter) is too much for him as far as the water movement. Not sure how long I should continue to wait for him to get better. I just don't want him to suffer. I fed him some peas yesterday because it has been a while since I fed him. He did eat them so still has an appetite. I just don't know what to do :-?


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

I read the advice of keeping Bolivians at 86,....oooh my goodness,...thats way to warm for Bolivians! They prefer temps around 76 to 78. There are several articles in the library section that should provide you the right info how to keep Bolivians. There is also a huge amounth of info on the BRC tread.

Abouth the bloating,....there can be several reasons like an intestinal bacterial issue but it can also be a heavy infestation with worms (tape worms for example). Often fish with an intestinal bacterial issue won't last long and start wasting away rather fast. The situation with your Bolivian seems to last long. Doing nothing won't help the poor guy so I would either treat with prazi or a dewormer containing prazi and see if things improve or take to poor guy down and stop the suffering.


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## duds (Apr 16, 2010)

Dutch Dude said:


> I read the advice of keeping Bolivians at 86,....oooh my goodness,...thats way to warm for Bolivians!


I believe that temperature was stated to go in conjunction with the epsom salts as a treatment, not as a long term tank temperature. The salt + heat treatment seems to be a common simple fix for some illnesses.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Hi duds.

I'm aware that a higher temp can have a posetive effect on healing or the absorption of certain meds. The temp suggested is way out of the comfort zone for Bolivians and in stead of a healing effect is can make the situation even worse. In the case of an bacterial issue you don't want to raise the temp for example becouse this will increase the growth of bacteria. If the fish looked healthy but would not eat a higher temp might have been a good choice but it should not exceed the maximum temp a specie can tolerate. IMO a temp of 82 is maximum for Bolivians. Now the situation is not feeding but bloating. If is fish is bloated you don't want to feed it so it will bloat more and more. The reason for the bloating should be the choice for treatment in stead of treating for something becouse it sometimes helps. The epsom salt was a good choice dough but it should have solved the issue by now. A bacterial issue probably would have been fatal after 2 weeks. This makes me think it might be paresite related. Thats why I suggested to start with prazi or a dewormer containing prazi. Other posebilety is to put the fish to rest becouse it is already suffering for a long time.

Take care,

Ruurd


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## duds (Apr 16, 2010)

Ruurd,
Thanks for the in depth reply. I think it's safe to say that you have more experience than I do in both the areas of bolivians and treating illnesses. To be honest I didn't know enough to distinguish between parasitic and bacterial illnesses. I appreciate the knowledge.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

An interesting read:

http://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=31


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

> An interesting read:
> 
> http://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=31


Indeed an interesting link but also an old article and on some points a bit outdated. If you look up info from the Guapore and Mamore you will find that the average temp of those river systems are not that high and around 76 F and off course a shift up and down depending on the wet or the dry season. Not all info from Lee his article is adequate and are based on only his expirienses with that single pair. Back then there wasn't much info abouth the specie so for the time a valuable article. Most of it is still up to date but not all. Bolivian fry tolerate nitrates up to 25mg/liter but in the long run it will slow growth down. They don't need soft water and actualy do best on a PH around 7 and at PH=8 the eggs still hatch. Lee mentions his pair spawned every 3 weeks while most report every week for months in a row. Still the article is worth the read and the more you read abouth Bolivians the more you discover how hardy and adaptable they are. A perfect dwarf for people new to the hobby and still interesting enough (especialy around breeding) for the expirienced people.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Duds,...your welcome. I do happen to know some things about bolivians and unfortunately I also learned some things abouth illnesses (also the hard way). Unfortunately we won't save all fish that become ill becouse some illnesses are very hard to diagnose. In a lot of situations you can narrow it down like I did in my previous post. How is the poor guy doing?


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## iLuvAngels (May 14, 2008)

Acutally still not doing too great. He is still having problems laying upright and keeps leaning over to the side a lot. He is laying on the bottom of the QT and swims from one side to the other but stays on the bottom as he swims. Not really swimming around at all. His coloring is still good but he hasn't grown much at all in comparison to the other Bolivians that are in my main tank which I purchased with him.

I hate to do this but think I need to euthanize him. What is the easiest most humane way to do it? I just don't think he is going to get much better. 

Thanks


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## iLuvAngels (May 14, 2008)

I don't need to euthanize him now. I was going to do it this morning but when I checked on him, he was already dead.

Thanks for all the help everyone.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

iLoveangels,...sorry to hear you lost the Bolivian. Unfortunately we can't save all the fish that become ill.

In case you consider to euthanize a fish in the future (lets hope you won't need to do that) there are several methods. Some quickly snap the head (I find this dificult to do becouse I don't like killing) but some also put it in a bag with some water and put the bag in the refrigerator. The fish will cool down and slowely go to sleep. In case people might think I'm a rude guy,...no I don't like to kill an animal but in some cases we can't cure them and to let the animal suffer is ruder as to kill it and take it out of it's misery.


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## iLuvAngels (May 14, 2008)

Thanks Dutch Dude  I had become pretty fond of the little guy. I love the personality of the Bolivians. How they greet me everytime I come up to the tank. If I can ever get a pair out of the remaing five I have, I would love to attempt breeding them.

I agree with you, allowing an animal to suffer it worse than putting it out of it's misery but of course that is very hard to do. He must have known how hard it was for me to do and went on his own.

I'll keep all the information given to me in mind in the event I have to actually go through with the euthanization if something like this happens again. Hopefully not, but I understand that is very possible.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

I loved to keep and breed Bolivians for over 10 years and their personalities were the main reason why I liked them so much. After keeping a specie for so long and breed 3 generations the challenge was gone so I switched to discus. I still have good memories when I think abouth the funny behaviour and especialy abouth the behaviour of a group. I'm prety sure I will once keep them again but for now I'm completely addicted to discus :wink:

There is a rather large chance you will get a pair from a group of 5. If they once start to spawn they go on and on and on. Plenty of chances to raise a batch. If you need my opinion later on,....feel free to send a pm  For now enjoy your remaining 5 fish, grow them up and feed them various foods (also some frozen). If they breed for you it would be nice, if not they will be fun fish to keep and with proper care they can become 5 to 7 years of age.

Take care and have lots of fun with your fish,....ooh and don't forget to share some pics with us :wink:


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