# Shipping A Holding Female



## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

I recently ordered a couple additional female Yellow Labs. I think one of the females I received is holding eggs! Is this possible? Wouldn't the stress of shipping cause her to "abort?" (probably not the correct word) Also, some breeders use sedatives in shipping. Would the sedative harm the eggs?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Possible! She would not necessarily spit the eggs just due to shipping. Hopefully your breeder did not use a sedative...did yours? I would expect the fry would be OK, but hard to tell without knowing the chemical that was used.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

I contacted the breeder. They can't tell me for sure if sedatives were used on my order. But they told me that when they _do _use sedatives, they use Aquacalm. I wish I could get a picture of the fish in question, but I don't know where she is at present.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I could not find anything about the impact of Metomidate hydrochloride on fry. Are you going to raise them?


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> I could not find anything about the impact of Metomidate hydrochloride on fry. Are you going to raise them?


I don't know.... I wasn't planning on this.... I'm not prepared for it.... I don't know what to do.... _*Help! Panic! *_ I don't have an empty tank to put her in even if I _could _catch her, which I can't.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would let this batch go. You can't be absolutely sure who she spawned with.

Are you going to eventually raise fry?


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> I would let this batch go. You can't be absolutely sure who she spawned with.
> 
> Are you going to eventually raise fry?


That's true; they could be hybrids, huh? I hadn't thought of that. What do you mean by "let this batch go?"

Do I eventually want to raise fry? I hadn't decided yet. I expected to have a couple more months to think it over and research what all is involved. I live in a small apartment; don't have room for a lot of tanks.....


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Let her spit in the tank with the adults. That will be what you usually do with females that hold in the tank ongoing.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

Yeah? And then what happens?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The adults in the tank eat the babies as soon as they are spit.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> The adults in the tank eat the babies as soon as they are spit.


Then how do you explain this?

https://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/vie ... 9&t=454233


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

2 out of 20? Most were eaten...I rarely have survivor fry (like six in 15 years) but if you don't want any stock Synodontis.


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## sir_keith (Oct 30, 2018)

DJRansome said:


> 2 out of 20? Most were eaten...I rarely have survivor fry (like six in 15 years) but if you don't want any stock Synodontis.


Granted, these are not Malawians, but a picture is worth 1000 words nonetheless...


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

Can you tell if she is still holding? If they are survived all of this so far, give them a chance if they survive in the rocks. If they are hybrids, just don't give away or let breed as adults.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

noki said:


> Can you tell if she is still holding? If they are survived all of this so far, give them a chance if they survive in the rocks. If they are hybrids, just don't give away or let breed as adults.


Yes, she is definitely still holding. Is there any way to tell how much longer she has to go before she spits them?


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

Mother lets them go when the babies are getting too big and they are free swimming. Can you see the fry when see opens her mouth? Yellow labs are harder to see inside, since they have small pointed mouth lips.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

No, I can't see any fry yet. But mama herself looks very healthy.... much better than I would look if I didn't eat for 2 weeks!


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## SenorStrum (Aug 14, 2020)

Here's how I think of this. I think it's actually super common to get a holding female. 
I'm going to guess that you ordered a "guaranteed female" and I'm also going to guess that Dave was involved somewhere along the line.

If I were in the business of selling "guaranteed female" mbuna, I would simply wait until one had a mouth full, and then send her. What is a more sure way to know? This has some unintended consequences, though. In your case, you got a holing fish and babies you didn't know what to do with. I got a horrifically emaciated fish who nearly died. I think that she had been holding for some time and was therefore predictibly skinny. I'm guessing that they sent her right after spitting. Lucy barely made it, and I won't be doing that again.

For the question of "When do females spit?" The answer is yes. We see new fry in the tank ALL THE TIME. Since we put 10 petricolas in there, we do NOT see fry surviving to join the population. They get spit, they get found. They last maybe 1-2 days, then they're gone.

Sometimes though, they do it all dramatic like. Sometimes, the new moms just get so hungry during feeding time, and well - Spit. During Feeding. The results are "exciting" and predictable. I personally hate seeing it, as, well, I... just don't want to. Last time it happened, Calypso, our try-hard Astatotilapia Latifasciatus released 4(?) fry about dead center in the tank high in the water column just after feeding. Just kinda Opened her mouth and was like "mama's hungry, get the heck out!" and there they were. One, whom La Sra. Strum has now named Icharus (sic. I think it's funny. Whatever.) flew high and down the overflow. He has earned the place in a grow-out tank.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

SenorStrum said:


> Here's how I think of this. I think it's actually super common to get a holding female.
> I'm going to guess that you ordered a "guaranteed female" and I'm also going to guess that Dave was involved somewhere along the line.
> 
> If I were in the business of selling "guaranteed female" mbuna, I would simply wait until one had a mouth full, and then send her. What is a more sure way to know? This has some unintended consequences, though. In your case, you got a holing fish and babies you didn't know what to do with. I got a horrifically emaciated fish who nearly died. I think that she had been holding for some time and was therefore predictibly skinny. I'm guessing that they sent her right after spitting. Lucy barely made it, and I won't be doing that again.
> ...


This fish did not come from "Dave," but your theory still makes sense regardless of who the breeder is. I was mostly just surprised that she continued holding throughout the shipping ordeal. I figured the stress would trigger her to give up on this brood. Unfortunately, I don't have the ability right now to set up a grow-out tank, so I guess it will be law of the jungle for this batch... "nature red in tooth and claw" and all that.



SenorStrum said:


> ....One, whom La Sra. Strum has now named Icharus (sic. I think it's funny. Whatever.) flew high and down the overflow.....


Nicely done! A classical reference and a play on a dreaded fish disease. Worst name for a fish store: Ich-R-Us Aquatics.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

Would I be able to use my planted 20g tank as a grow-out tank? What would I have to do to make it suitable for mbuna fry?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Sure. Make the parameters match your main tank. Are you OK with the fish digging up or eating the plants as they mature? What will you do with the fry?

I assume you will remove the tetras, rasboras and shrimp?


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> Sure. Make the parameters match your main tank. Are you OK with the fish digging up or eating the plants as they mature? What will you do with the fry?
> 
> I assume you will remove the tetras, rasboras and shrimp?


I don't care if they destroy the plants. _One_ of my reasons for getting into the mbuna hobby in the first place was because I wanted to get out of the live plant hobby. The tetras and rasboras are the remnant survivors of a planted 55g that I had running for a long time. They are 8+ years old, and I don't expect them to be around much longer in any case. What will I do with the fry? Don't know... maybe sell them or give them away... maybe try to introduce a few back into the main tank if there's room... ??? I haven't decided for sure yet if I'm going to do it. Just considering ideas of what to do with my 20g once the current inhabitants "move on."


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Oh, those choices, hmmmm....? :-? 
- Most of us just let the holding female go full term. She eventually spits out the babies and the other Cichlids in there, catfish, loaches, etc.... just take care of the bizness. It's usually over in seconds. And well, that way there's just no baby fish to worry about.
- or - 
- You do like some of us have (or will), and get some more valuable Cichlids. Kind of surprising to learn just how valuable, grown-out F1 babies can actually be from WC parents. I myself made literally 'tens' of dollars ( :roll: ) in selling F1 baby fish from WC Cichlid parents originating from CA and SA. Some of those parent fish I kept then, I even collected originally myself. 
-
And no... you aren't gonna get rich or anything selling baby fish like that. But, it is kind of fun raising the babies out. And, selling them helps to off-set (at least partially) some of the costs of being in this hobby. I remember doing a guest speaker presentation (Collecting in Honduras) for The Potomac Valley Aquarium Society in Fairfax Virginia. I brought in some F1 Amatatlania spilurus and Parachromis motaguensis babies that I gave away to the club to make money in an auction for the members. The amounts bid on those baby fish that day, were pretty eye raising!


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

The holding female that I got by accident has a couple favorite hiding places where she usually hangs out. But tonight she's swimming all over the tank and looking a bit stressed. She even started glass surfing. Could this be a sign that she's getting ready to spit? Maybe she's trying to get away from all the other fish....???


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yes, getting ready. More probably she is frantic because the babies want out and she is trying to keep them in. They do the same thing in a tank by themselves.


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## SenorStrum (Aug 14, 2020)

Auballagh said:


> . I myself made literally 'tens' of dollars ( :roll: )


HA! I love it. "Literally tens of dollars" is one of my favorite things to say at work. Also, when somebody asks me for a financial estimate, my answer is "At least $12" and I have yet to be wrong!


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

Do females ever refuse to spit, and consequently starve to death? My Yellow Lab was already holding when I got her, exactly 3 weeks ago. So she's been holding for _at least_ 3 weeks, probably longer. She seems stressed, constantly glass surfing. Why won't she spit?!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

28 days is average so you are good. If she starts to look skinny (concave belly), you can strip her. It always seems to take forever for them to spit, but I would not worry until it has been more than a week since she started acting frantic.


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## SenorStrum (Aug 14, 2020)

Smeagol said:


> Do females ever refuse to spit, and consequently starve to death? My Yellow Lab was already holding when I got her, exactly 3 weeks ago. So she's been holding for _at least_ 3 weeks, probably longer. She seems stressed, constantly glass surfing. Why won't she spit?!


They don't refuse to spit. What I've noticed on a number of occasions is that they try really hard, but the flesh is weak. And so, unfortunately, the temptation of feeding time is just too much, and this peculiarly bad time is precisely when they choose to evacuate their progeny.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

What should I expect _after _she spits? Will she immediately go back to normal behavior, or will it take her a few days to recuperate?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

She will be back to normal. If she got skinny, the "recuperation" will be gaining weight after her 28 day fast through normal eating.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

Lots of news.... My first holding female must have finally spit. I didn't see it happen; but her "baby bump" is gone, and she's eating now. So, I guess that's that. Did you notice that I said "my _first_ holding female?" That's because now I have another Yellow Lab that's holding! The first one was already holding when the UPS man brought her to me. This second one must've spawned in my tank, which means I know who the daddy is (a big dominant male jerk named Napoleon). If that isn't enough, last night I saw a pair of Acei spawning. I don't know if they were successful, but they sure were trying hard.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Yep.
You'll get used to it, soon enough. And, welcome to the African Mbuna world, man. They actually do this kind of thing in the aquarium -_* ALL THE TIME.*_
And, like I said earlier.... if you report and share here that you've got a WC female (worth $$$), holding proven F1 babies in her mouth? (Or eggs laid on a spawning site).
-
**ahem**
-
You'll probably wind up getting more C-f PMs than you would believe.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

She was in the planted tank? How many fry did you get?


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> She was in the planted tank? How many fry did you get?


No, I never moved her. I kept her in the 75g.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

Update.... I just spotted a single fry hiding in a crevice where larger fish can't reach him (or her). Short of removing it to a different tank, is there anything I can do at this point to increase the odds of survival?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Chances are the fry will be fine. You could add a pile of pebbles for it to use as it darts out to grab food if you think it is needed.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> Chances are the fry will be fine. You could add a pile of pebbles for it to use as it darts out to grab food if you think it is needed.


I don't understand. Before, everyone told me all the fry will get eaten by the adults. Now you're saying it will probably be fine. What's going on?

As for food, what can the fry eat? It's too small to eat regular food, isn't it?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The adults usually eat the fry immediately. IME survivors last forever.

You don't see 20 fry...right?

IME they eat the regular food...even if they drag it into their spot and it softens so they can nibble. If you try to direct fry food to them, it just draws the attention of the adults.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> The adults usually eat the fry immediately. IME survivors last forever.
> 
> You don't see 20 fry...right?
> 
> IME they eat the regular food...even if they drag it into their spot and it softens so they can nibble. If you try to direct fry food to them, it just draws the attention of the adults.


No, I don't see 20 fry. But _I didn't see this one either_ for a few days. There very well could be more of them hiding in other crevices outside my line of sight. But assuming there _is _only one, that still doesn't answer my question. The conventional wisdom seems to be that fry are a quick and easy snack for the adults. That's what I was told repeatedly. How did we move from the assumption that the fry _will _get eaten to the assumption that this one particular fry will _not _get eaten? How does surviving 3 days make so much difference?

As for food drawing the attention of the adults, that might be moot point. They're already aware of him. A few adults have darted at him, tried to catch him, but he can get far back into the crevice where they can't reach him. But he will have to come out eventually, right? He can't live in that little crevice forever.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The answer is: they eat the fry immediately. Any left the next day are likely to be ignored. It is not as black/white as that, but trying to make the point.

It is likely some of the attraction when they are first spit is the frenzy and the inability of the fry to hide. The adults lose interest quickly. Remember they are not really predator fish.

He will come out and they will ignore him...eventually.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> The answer is: they eat the fry immediately. Any left the next day are likely to be ignored. It is not as black/white as that, but trying to make the point.
> 
> It is likely some of the attraction when they are first spit is the frenzy and the inability of the fry to hide. The adults lose interest quickly. Remember they are not really predator fish.
> 
> He will come out and they will ignore him...eventually.


OK. Thanks for that explanation! I think this is the first time I've heard about the distinction between those that get eaten immediately and those that survive a few days.


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## Livvie15 (Jul 30, 2020)

My Mbuna Will. Not. Stop. Breeding!! I occasionally see a baby that has survived but then they disappear.

The first few times they seemed to hold for 2-3 weeks but now they've gotten better at it they seem to hold onto the fry longer, and their chins are bigger too hahah. It's so cool when you can see the little fry looking out of mum's mouth. I can sometimes see their eyes through the mother's cheeks when they are big enough.

It seems as soon as one spits them out, a different female is then holding. I don't know how I don't get any survivors tbh as there's 6 females breeding all the time. Each female usually has more eggs again within a few weeks of letting the previous batch go.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

Livvie15 said:


> My Mbuna Will. Not. Stop. Breeding!! I occasionally see a baby that has survived but then they disappear.
> 
> The first few times they seemed to hold for 2-3 weeks but now they've gotten better at it they seem to hold onto the fry longer, and their chins are bigger too hahah. It's so cool when you can see the little fry looking out of mum's mouth. I can sometimes see their eyes through the mother's cheeks when they are big enough.
> 
> ...


Which species do you have?


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

Do females always spit all their fry at one time? Or might they spit a couple today, a couple more tomorrow, and so on?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

IME one/two usually escape first, but when she spits she spits them all.

The female can take the entire brood back in her mouth when threatened initially, but I have not personally experienced this.


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## Smeagol (Jan 23, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> IME one/two usually escape first, but when she spits she spits them all.
> 
> The female can take the entire brood back in her mouth when threatened initially, but I have not personally experienced this.


Well, here's what happened. As previously discussed, I had been watching 1 baby for several days last week. But then it disappeared and I didn't see it for a few days, so I assumed it finally got eaten. Meanwhile, I have a 2nd holding female that's getting ready to spit. Tonight I saw _two _babies. I don't know if they are _new _ones that just "escaped" from the 2nd holding female as you described, or if they are more survivors from the earlier brood.


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