# MBUNA Compatibility



## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

Hey,

You experience fish keepers have probably heard this a thousand times before and please no comments on needing a billion litre tank (cichlids snobs)

I have a 200 lite tank on order and want to stock it with Mbuna

The fish I personally like are below, would 4 to 5 of each work..?

Yellow Labs
Maingano
Jalo Reef
Chewere


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Welcome to Cichlid-forum!

A 209 liter tank is a great tank for mbuna, as long as it is 48" long.

You could do 3 species with 5 of each (1m:4f) very well in a 48" tank.

But I would skip the maingano (they are a little more aggressive and need a little more room).

And I would choose between the Jalo Reef and the Chewere because they are closely related (both Cynotilapia zebroides) and look too much alike (both blue barred fish).


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

Thanks for the quick response DJ,

So if I go yellow labs, and chewere could my third group be cobalt blue zebra..? 
and I know I'm probably breaking all rules but could I put a single OB peacock in as well (16 fish total)


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Is it a 48" long tank?

Yes to the zebra (Metriaclima callainos).

When you add the OB peacock, it would be an experiment. If it gets picked on or if it picks on others (OB peacock is a hybrid) then you may have to rehome when everyone starts spawning.

AND if you add him, don't save fry from anyone in the tank.


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

Evening DJ,

Another quick question, again apologies it's probably in the wrong category but I've heard so many different ways people say to cycle the tank. 
I have purchased some Fluval Cycle bio enhancer that KG Tropicals recommends. 
It says to dose the tank with it over three days which is fine but not sure if I need to buy ammonia to add as well..? 
Please could you clarify..?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't trust the bottled bacteria and would cycle only with ammonia. But you can check with the manufacturer if you want to try the Fluval product...I find manufacturers pretty responsive to individual questions.

I always allow six weeks. Take any claims you get from a manufacturer about duration with a grain of salt, but they should be able to tell you the steps and what to expect from your test results.

No matter what they say, I would not consider the tank cycled until your ammonia and nitrite are zero for several days and your nitrates are increasing.


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

Hey DJ, hope you are well..

So I filled the new tank on Sat night and dosed with Prime. Temperature I set to 28, filter and wave maker turned on.

Sunday morning I dosed with Fluval Bio cycle and repeated this on Monday and Tuesday morning as the instructions said. 
There is no mention of when to introduce fish and I appreciate you mentioned that a full cycle could take 4-5 weeks to complete properly using Ammonia.

As you suggested I called Fluval and spoke to them about the Bio cycle. The chap said 'I should be introducing the fish after the third dose (third day) so the bacteria have something to feed off'
he mentioned if I left it any longer then Id have dead bacteria in the tank. I proceeded to ask how many fish to introduce and he said start with 5 labs.

The problem is I wanted to put all 16 ish fish in together which seems to be the correct process for Mbuna - however how would I know any cycle has taken place which could lead to dead fish and £90 pounds up in smoke. 
Would I be best to add ammonia now and do a proper fishless cycle and keep a track of results...?

Currently Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0

PH 7.6 but with high range result is 7.4, do I need to add chemicals to increase PH..? - substrate is fine coral sand (aragonite)


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Seems if you want to take advantage of the product you have already used you should add the 5 labs. The fish themselves will add the ammonia. Then you will need to wait a month and add another group of 5, etc.

If you don't mind losing the $$ you could drain and start over with ammonia...no bottled stuff.

Test KH to verify that you do not need additives for pH. Sounds like you might be OK.


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## Old Newbie (Feb 18, 2017)

shiftyfox said:


> Hey DJ, hope you are well..
> 
> So I filled the new tank on Sat night and dosed with Prime. Temperature I set to 28, filter and wave maker turned on.
> 
> ...


You don't need fish in the tank to feed the bacteria. I would add 2 ppm ammonia to the tank and test to see if it is converted to nitrate within 24 hours; this way you are sure you have active bacteria and it is safe for fish. Bacteria in a bottle is not always reliable.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

But if it is not converted within 24 hours then you have to weigh continuing with the bottled bacteria in the tank or drain and start over.


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

Morning DJ,

I introduced the 5 labs last night and tested the water this morning. 
Temperature 26.5
PH 7.4
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0.25 
Nitrate 20

A little concerned about the Nitrite, should I test again tonight or add Seachem Prime or do water change..?


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## Old Newbie (Feb 18, 2017)

I would do a 50% change, add enough Prime to treat the entire volume of the tank and continue to check the level daily doing water changes as necessary.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The bottled bacteria product may advise not to change water, since you would then be removing the bacteria.

I think if you are using the product they will have to advise you.

Using the bottled product may be a little more like cycling with fish where you have to tolerate some toxins, IDK.


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

Thanks guys,

how about a compromise, do new readings tonight and maybe dose with prime to help nitrite levels and leave the water change in less nitrite reading increases too much

I realise nitrite reading should be 0 but how high before I should be doing a large water change - 0.50ppm


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Again...with bottled bacteria it may be that you have to tolerate a moderate nitrite reading. When you cycle with ammonia, if there is no nitrite the 2nd group of bacteria will not grow.

And does the bottle say to change water or not?

You can't apply the same logic as cycling with ammonia. That is not the design of the product. You can tell since the instructions are to add 5 fish...not all at once.


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

Hey DJ,

5 labs of about 1.5 inches have been in the new tank for 6 days now. As you know I dosed with the bottled bacteria for three days prior to adding the fish.

The first 5 days readings were 
Temp 26
PH high range 7.4
Ammonia 0.25
Nitite 0.25
Nitrate 20

Today's reading (6th day) 
Temp 26
PH high range 7.4
Ammonia 0.50
Nitite 0.25
Nitrate 20

Should I now do my first water change tomorrow (7th day) to bring levels down and clean up the bottom.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I sound like a broken record. What does the manufacturer instruct?

You could ask them why you have nitrite and ammonia, just out of curiousity.

Your levels are not deadly as yet.


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

There are no other instructions on the bottle.

Would you expect more ammonia and nitrite if fish were added with no bacteria..?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yes but not after one week.

Cycling with ammonia you have no toxins. Ammonia and nitrite would be zero.

Cycling with fish the fish have to survive through the toxins and may survive or not and may have permanent damage.

It seems like cycling with bottled bacteria is better than cycling with fish but worse than cycling with ammonia.

I Googled Fluval (go to the fluval website, not the vendors) and found this in FAQ:

*I've been cycling my aquarium for several weeks and have a high level of nitrite. How can I eliminate it ?*
We recommend a double dose of Fluval Cycle Biological Enhancer after having performed 50% water changes. At this stage, one or two 50% water changes should dilute the nitrite sufficiently to ensure the bacteria introduced keeps the nitrite level down.

To me this means they EXPECT you to have high levels of nitrite after 2 or 3 weeks. What I don't know is what do they consider high? 1ppm? 2ppm? 5ppm?

Right under that FAQ is see this:
Can't Find an Answer?
Contact Us

So hit Contact Us and see what level you should get to before you do the water changes.


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

My Conclusion on bottled bacteria (cycle) - Absolute waste of money

I have 5 yellow labs (1.5 inches each) in my new tank for 3 weeks now and have seen no improvement in ammonia levels and yes a cycled tank may take double this time but I believe I would have had same results with adding no bacteria from the start

Levels over the past week have been..

Ammonia 1ppm
Nitrite 0.25
Nitrate 20
Ph 7.4

Shall I now do a water change and is 1ppm of ammonia enough to start the cycle..?


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## Old Newbie (Feb 18, 2017)

I would do a 50% change; the ammonia that the fish excrete should be enough to culture bacteria. As far as adding bottled bacteria, I have used Smart Start Complete with good results on my 75 gallon tank a couple of years ago, but I added the entire 12 oz bottle not the 7.5 oz that were called for. The tank had crashed and ammonia and nitrites spiked; the day after adding the Smart Start ammonia and nitrites were back to zero.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

shiftyfox said:


> a cycled tank may take double this time but I believe I would have had same results with adding no bacteria from the start


 I agree with the bottled bacteria being a poor investment. You may still have 1ppm ammonia at this point, AND you would not have fish in the tank having to live in the ammonia and nitrite.

Also you are not totally cycled, even for the 5 fish you have...so maybe not faster.

Finally, when your ammonia and nitrite are zero, that will only support 5 fish. Every time you add fish you have to wait to grow more bacteria. When cycling with ammonia you can stock all the fish at once with sufficient bacteria.


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

Definitely a lesson learnt.. 
Dr Tims Ammonia, no fish and six weeks waiting next time for me

I've already asked the Mrs if I can buy another tank, her response - "isn't one enough"


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Next time you can use media from your established tank to start the new tank...no cycle required.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

"A 200 liter tank is a great tank for mbuna, as long as it is 48" long."

A standard 200 liter tank is 1 meter long. That's 39", not 48".

You will need a second tank soon enough!


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

Morning All,

Did a water change as Old Newbie suggested and readings still have ammonia in but nitrites none. When is this blinking cycle going to kick in, fish have been in the tank almost 4 weeks now. 
Ammonia - 1ppm
Nitrite - 0
Nitrates between 5 and 10
Ph 7.4

Also is it worth adding some cichlid salt just to raise the Ph a little..?


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## Old Newbie (Feb 18, 2017)

7.4 is fine; continue doing 50% water changes daily until ammonia drops to zero. I know it is a pain in the rear, but you are closing in on your goal.


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

So I assume doing daily water changes wont affect the cycle i'm trying to achieve..?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

No. You are trying to grow beneficial bacteria and it grows on filter media (as well as other surfaces), not in the water column.


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

Hey,

FRUSTRATED now...

It's been a little over six weeks now I've had 5 yellow labs in the tank for and I still have ammonia readings. 
The Nitrite stays at 0 even after a week from the last water change, so I guess that cycle is complete..? 
However the Ammonia after a week is anything from 0.50 - 1pm

I understand that I could do daily water changes to dilute the ammonia to get it to 0 ish, but is that defeating the object as I want the cycle to be doing that for me..?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Unless you are changing 100% that is not your problem. What is the ammonia reading from the tap?


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

0ppm


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If your ammonia is not zero, the tank is not cycled. Or...possibly 0.25 if you use Prime as your dechlorinator which can give a 0.25 ammonia reading.

With fish in the tank you want the ammonia to stay under 1ppm.

The bacteria needs to grow enough so that it can take the ammonia down to zero in 24 hours. It is easier without fish in the tank.


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

I understand both ammonia and nitrite has to be 0 to be a fully cycled tank. 
How come the nitrite is staying at 0ppm but ammonia isn't being dealt with. 
Yes I do use prime.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

There are 2 types of bacteria. Usually the ammonia eating one grows first. It creates nitrite as waste.

Then the nitrite eating one grows, and it produces nitrate as waste.

Between using a bottled product (impact unknown) and having fish in the tank...results may be more unpredictable than fishless cycling with ammonia.


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

Shall I do daily water changes or leave for a week for ammonia to get to around 1ppm..?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I understood you to say that even with daily changes the ammonia is .50 to 1.00ppm?

Keep it under 1ppm. Maybe try every other day?


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

After 5 days from the last water change ammonia is 1ppm and nitrite is 0.

If I ever get this darn tank fully cycled what are my options for adding more colour to the tank, ideally blue.

I know my tank is on the small side 90x50x50cm but what other species could I add..? 
Currently 5 yellow labs, would 4 jalo reef be ok 1m 3F..?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would no do 2 species in a 35" tank. If I wanted blue and yellow-orange I would stock with the single species Chindongo saulosi. Blue barred males and yellow-orange females.

I would not do 1m:3f of anything...I have never had luck with trios or quads. Jalo Reef is not overly timid. If you cannot get saulosi in the UK you could try 1m:4f labs and 1m:4f Cynotilapia zebroides Cobue, but have a rehoming plan. Cynotilapia zebroides females are drab.

Know that when you double the bioload you may have another mini cycle.


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

Could I get away with x1 demansoni with the 5 labs..?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Probably, if it is a female.


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