# Pic of my Wild Red Head Severum's.



## NW Lover (Aug 28, 2007)

I bought them from the Cichlid Exchange. She follows him around like a stalker.


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## Bamboo (Jan 12, 2011)

same thing as a Rotkiel ?


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Bamboo said:


> same thing as a Rotkiel ?


Yes, "Rotkiel" translated is "red head".

I'm curious as to the type location of the fish?


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

They like more like sp. Rotkiel (red shoulder) than redheads (Rio Tapajos green sev's).


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## DDRE00 (Feb 5, 2010)

Any pictures around for the Green Sev from Rio Tapajos?


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Could only find a tiny pic of them.

http://www.amazon-exotic-import.de/Gallerie/Cichliden/Miniaturen/Heros sp. Tapajos.jpg

I think they should of got the common name 'rednose' or 'rudolph' sev to avoid confusion ... but confusion is what common names are for!


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

My red shoulders look nothing like the op's fish, but my red heads look exactly the same...


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

TheFishGuy said:


> My red shoulders look nothing like the op's fish, but my red heads look exactly the same...


See? This is why common names suck. I have no clue what a red shoulder would even look like if it's not a Rotkeil.


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

"Rotkeil" actually means "red wedge" in German. It's the shape of the red area.

Rot = red
keil = wedge


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## DDRE00 (Feb 5, 2010)

A typical picture of a rotkeil:
http://wwmiv.blogspot.com/2009/03/heros-heroes.html

nothing like the redhead picture that dwarfpike linked to.

If your fish looks like the picture above then it is a rotkeil if it looks like dwarfpike's link then I guess it is a redhead.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

DDRE00 said:


> If your fish looks like the picture above then it is a rotkeil if it looks like dwarfpike's link then I guess it is a redhead.


Rotkeil and redhead are the same thing.

Red Shoulders are different.


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## djm761 (May 23, 2011)

They have several Rotkeils at one of the LFS, the price 30.00 dollars per fish, that seems a bit high to me, or do you think I should purchase one at this price.


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## Bamboo (Jan 12, 2011)

djim , How big are the $30 Rotkeils ? 8 inch Rotkeils are about $40 and the babies ( 2 inches ) are about $7 here at the local fishstores ... I hear they are ( like Chocalate Cichlids ) are extremely slow growing , so maybe $40 for a 8 inch fish is a good deal ?


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

TheFishGuy said:


> DDRE00 said:
> 
> 
> > If your fish looks like the picture above then it is a rotkeil if it looks like dwarfpike's link then I guess it is a redhead.
> ...


Rotkeils don't have red heads, so I guess calling them read heads would be a serious misnomer. Rotkiels do have red shoulders.


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

TheFishGuy said:


> Rotkeil and redhead are the same thing.
> 
> Red Shoulders are different.


Can you post a pic with a wedge-shaped red patch on the head? Or a pic of what you think is a "red shoulder"?


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

The OP's fish is a H. sp. "Rotkeil" and that's what it should be called. Some people do call it red shoulder for apparent reasons. It would be hard to understand why it would be called "red head".


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

dwarfpike said:


> See? This is why common names suck.


 opcorn:


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## djm761 (May 23, 2011)

Bamboo said:


> djim , How big are the $30 Rotkeils ? 8 inch Rotkeils are about $40 and the babies ( 2 inches ) are about $7 here at the local fishstores ... I hear they are ( like Chocalate Cichlids ) are extremely slow growing , so maybe $40 for a 8 inch fish is a good deal ?


We just looked at the Rotkeil Severums they are all 2-4 inches long, and are showing red only on the anal and dorsal fins no red on the heads. and the price is 30.00 dollars per fish.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

I will do what I can to get pics...


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

djm761 said:


> Bamboo said:
> 
> 
> > djim , How big are the $30 Rotkeils ? 8 inch Rotkeils are about $40 and the babies ( 2 inches ) are about $7 here at the local fishstores ... I hear they are ( like Chocalate Cichlids ) are extremely slow growing , so maybe $40 for a 8 inch fish is a good deal ?
> ...


The price around here has dropped dramatically in the last few years as they have become more common. Around $7 for 2'' to 3" fish seems to be the norm, which is about 3 times wholesale. The anal fins should be orange and the heads are blue. This will show before the shoulder turns red.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

This is an F1 Rotkeil







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The color is very variable and can range from this to stripes and the red shoulder can be more pronounced. There is no red on the head. [/img]









A friend had a female that was almost entirely red on the body; not the head


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Here's my red shoulders










Male Rotkeil:









Male Red Shoulder:


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

They look great!

I'd think they are all the essentially the same as the OP's fish though...do you think the difference in barring patterns is significant enough to classify them into different "species"?

Might be confusing because male rotkeil has a fair amount of red on the face, and females don't (pretty much all blue).


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

My photo post has been edited to include more horrible photos


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

Mine as well.

Do the "red shoulders" ever show incomplete lateral bars?


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

The red shoulders have never had barring. THe one other person in our club that has them has never noticed barring either.


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## Chromedome52 (Jul 25, 2009)

According to Ken Davis, the Rotkeil without bars are hybrids with _H. efasciatus_. I was surprised to hear this myself, I had hoped they might be a mutation. However, the red band is obviously the same shape and in the same place on both fish.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Interesting.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

I wonder where Ken got his info... Anyone know? I've gotten a lot of compliments on my severum collection. I'd hate to have it be tainted with a hybrid. Not to mention I have two breeding pairs of these that constantly spawn. Fry are currently growing out and are accepted in our b.a.p. program. Hybrids are not allowed.


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## peathenster (Oct 7, 2008)

I think the confusion is partly due to the fact that very few wild H. efasciatus has been imported lately. The only batch I can think of were available in the first half of 2009, referred to as H. efasciatus "Tapajos", which turned out to be H. sp. "rotkeil". What should be the most common species is actually the rarest one.


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## DDRE00 (Feb 5, 2010)

TheFishGuy said:


> DDRE00 said:
> 
> 
> > If your fish looks like the picture above then it is a rotkeil if it looks like dwarfpike's link then I guess it is a redhead.
> ...


I'd say that:
rotkeil and red shoulder are the same thing
red head are different.

Refering to pics in previous post.

Edit: I read som more posts and maybe I'm wrong. Could it be that there are more species:
rotkeil: barring
red shoulder: no barring otherwise very similar
red head: according to dwarfpikes pictures and same as sp "Tapajos"
??


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

I don't think there's a severu, out there that's got a red head.


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## Chromedome52 (Jul 25, 2009)

Actually, the last paper done on _Heros _places all these red marked fish as populations of _efasciatus_, as is the Turquoise Sev, formerly _H. appendiculatus_. However, there are some problems with the paper, and a lot of people simply don't want to accept that the Rotkeil form is simply a population. _Heros _needs more research for certain.

I checked the thread at ACA forums where Ken Davis commented on some of these fish, and he said he believes they are hybrids. I overstated his opinion in my previous post, sorry. However, given Ken's experience and knowledge, and without a verified import source for these fish, I would tend to believe him. Regardless, Red Shoulder and Rotkeil are both names for the same fish, and I have also seen them called Red Head from several sources. As noted before, common names are generally useless for identification purposes. In this case, scientific names aren't much better!


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## Riceburner (Sep 3, 2008)

so what are my old ones...?


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Those are rotkeil...


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## Bamboo (Jan 12, 2011)

BillD , what are those ? What's the length ? I've never seen sev's that blue ...they are very nice !


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## djm761 (May 23, 2011)

Bamboo said:


> BillD , what are those ? What's the length ? I've never seen sev's that blue ...they are very nice !


X2 very nice fish


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## Riceburner (Sep 3, 2008)

I can see the confusion....

I always thought of mine as Red Shoulder Sevs....not Red Heads. Seems both names are being used.
http://www.cichlids.com/pictures/pic/Re ... tkeil.html


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

Bamboo said:


> BillD , what are those ? What's the length ? I've never seen sev's that blue ...they are very nice !


That particular fish is the smaller of 2 males I picked up as fry at auction (3 for $2). They were supposed to be F1 and have no reason to believe they weren't based on the seller. He is about 4 1/2" long and the other male is a little bigger. Sometimes they are even bluer than the photo and other times the blue fades away and they are striped. The damage you see is from fighting with the other male. I have been surprised by the level of blue at times and the less prominent red on the shoulder.


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## allierw (Apr 20, 2006)

I have a pair of WC sevs that look similar to the photos. How big are everyone's? Mine are about 6" and have spawned. I was just wondering if they are adult size, or if they would get as big as tank bred Sevs. I've read that the tank raised ones usually get bigger.


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## Fish042099 (Mar 14, 2012)

What lighting are you using?


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## spxsk (Mar 29, 2006)

View My Avatar, and let me know what you think those are. They are wild, and the parents of many fish that look like the OP. You can see the male of mine is completely red on his head. So, Red Shoulder, Red Head, Rotkeil, who knows.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

The discussion as of late is they are all the same.... So essentially everything pictured in this thread is the same fish....


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## neutrino (May 4, 2007)

> The discussion as of late is they are all the same.... So essentially everything pictured in this thread is the same fish....


Exactly my understanding. I won't even get into the merits of the Heros Efasciatus vs. Heros sp. 'rotkeil' discussion, except to say that rotkeil does help to identify what is a distinctive fish-- whether it turns out to be merely a color form or a separate fish or whether "rotkeil" sticks or is eventually discarded I'll leave for those actually studying and/or classifying these fish to work out. What I have seen is obvious rotkeils called both red heads and red shoulder by hobbyists and retailers and imo it's splitting hairs to try and distinguish between these imprecise names.

As far as color, having had quite a few rotkeils, the extent and intensity of red can vary with different individuals, and will also vary with mood and feeding, sometimes considerably. So to what extent any red extends into the 'head' area may differ between fish and may also depend on just where you consider their "head" to end and their "shoulder" to begin, "shoulder" being a somewhat imprecise term for a fish, anyway, imo-- though I think in any case you could justifiably the red covers more 'shoulder' than head. In some moods and some individuals, the red can extend some ways back along and underneath the dorsal... but that doesn't make them red "backed" severums.


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## neutrino (May 4, 2007)

correction to above: though I think in any case you could justifiably *say *the red covers more 'shoulder' than head.

(wouldn't let me edit after I saw the typo in original post :x )


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## redblufffishguy (Jul 16, 2009)

Great looking fish! Also love the cylindricus in the background!

RBFG


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