# Fish breathing heavy.



## chronotrigger (Sep 5, 2010)

Hi, I'm new to the forumn so please bear with me. I have a 55 gallon tank set up with a heater, light, and 2217 Eheim that has been established for 2 1/2 weeks. Starting with no fish, over the past month I have been introducing a new group of small fish about every week. I will not get anymore until I upgrade to a larger tank. It contains 4 female peacocks (1 1/2 - 2/ 1/2 in.), 3 male peacocks (all around 3-3 1/2 in.), clown loach (1 1/2 in.), 3 clown pleco (2 in.), 10 corys (1 in.), 1 blue dolphin (2 1/2 in.), 2 frontosa (2 1/2 in.), 1 red jewel (3 1/2 in.), 5 little purplish cichlids with yellow/orange fins (2 in.), 4 insignius (2 1/2 in.), 3 nyerei -1 male- (all about 2 1/2 in.), 1 male hap (i think, about 3 1/2 in.), and 3 compressiceps hap (2-3 in.) The tank is maintained at 80 degrees, has 0-.25 ppm ammonia, and looks to be at a ph of 7.5. My electric blue fish is breathing heavy, acting sluggish, and not eating. I am pretty sure he is a peacock (he has 7 or 8 black stipes, whole body is blue, has white stripe running along top of spiny fin, and some orange in his pelvic, anal, and caudal fins.) I cannot see anything visible wrong with him. I did a 50% water change last week on wed. Please help.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Welcome to Cichlid-forum!



chronotrigger said:


> 4 female peacocks (1 1/2 - 2/ 1/2 in.),
> 3 male peacocks (all around 3-3 1/2 in.),
> clown loach (1 1/2 in.),
> 3 clown pleco (2 in.),
> ...


That is a lot of fish and quite a mix in a 55G. 

What is the reading of tests for nitrite and nitrate? How did you cycle your tank?


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## chronotrigger (Sep 5, 2010)

I thought that was included with the ammonia test. I'll need to get a "new" test kit for everything. Yes, I know it's quite a few fish. I got a little carried away. I plan on buying a 100+ gal tank closer to Christmas and am planning on transfering all my fish into it. I was thinking since they're mostly pretty small I coulld get by for a little while. I noticed this a couple days ago. I did a water change on wed and added 11 tablespoons of aquarium salt (started totally fresh). Also put a couple new fish in the tank that were larger than he was. He was the top dog. So I think he got stressed. All my other fish look great and all are eating. I've decided to do the "sdenovan" clout treatment and have quarantined the fish in a 10 gal. tank. I'm not sure how to go about mixing the metronidazole powder with my tetra color tropical granules so I can treat my healthy fish as a preventative measure. What are your thoughts? Thanks.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

chronotrigger said:


> I plan on buying a 100+ gal tank closer to Christmas and am planning on transfering all my fish into it. I was thinking since they're mostly pretty small I coulld get by for a little while..


Since the mix is concerning, I don't know if this will solve your problem 100%. At 2 inches or more, many of those fish are mature enough to be aggressive right now. I'd probably choose a theme (all male or mixed? Peacock/hap? Mbuna? Tang?) and return some fish to the LFS until you have the larger tank cycled.



chronotrigger said:


> I noticed this a couple days ago. I did a water change on wed and added 11 tablespoons of aquarium salt (started totally fresh). Also put a couple new fish in the tank that were larger than he was. He was the top dog. So I think he got stressed. All my other fish look great and all are eating..


Why did you decide to add salt? How did you cycle your tank?



chronotrigger said:


> I've decided to do the "sdenovan" clout treatment and have quarantined the fish in a 10 gal. tank. I'm not sure how to go about mixing the metronidazole powder with my tetra color tropical granules so I can treat my healthy fish as a preventative measure. What are your thoughts? Thanks.


If this is your first fish that seems ill, I would not treat the tank as a preventative.

I think before I start medicating I would get the test kits. If your cycle is not complete, the fish could have those symptoms just from nitrate issues and then meds will just make things worse.


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## chronotrigger (Sep 5, 2010)

A little over a month ago I bought the tank, holey rock, heater, and two sponge filters. My roomate bought a mixed bag of little babies off craigslist. Alot of them look like they have ob patterns but definitely aren't peacocks. Some are powder blue with faint black vertical stripes. Some have one long single black horizontal line and are starting to become more yellow. Mbuna? Kenyi? Anyways, the tank was set up with weekly water changes to remove hormones and encourage growth. About 4 weeks ago I bought a few fish of my own to add in. After about a week he took all his babies out. I then set up my eheim 2217. My last water change was last wed. Now that I don't have the babies I figured I could do water changes monthly like in my downstairs tank. What do you mean, "how did I cycle my tank?" Are you refering to when I added the salt. I just sprinkled it throughout the tank. I added the salt because I was told it was beneficial to gill function. The hap and the largest male peacock are going gone gone. I haven't really noticed much aggression at all though. When I first added the "Hap" and larger peacock the fish that is now sick showed the larger peacock he wouldn't take no bull. They'd fight but then quit. Now the blue one does nothing but huff and puff under holey rock and doesn't eat. All my other fish appear fine, but I will get a nitrate test tomorrow. I don't think I have any mbuna or tangs mixed in. Are you saying things will get hairy if they breed? Thank you for all of your help.


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## AnnaFish (Aug 9, 2006)

> "how did I cycle my tank?"


Tank cycling refers to the process of setting up the nitrogen cycle in your tank filter.

Fish waste and uneaten foods produce ammonia, which is toxic to your fish. There is a bacteria that can build up over time that will convert the ammonia to nitrite. Nitrite is also toxic to fish because it affects red blood cells and reduces their capacity to absorb oxygen in their blood stream. There is another strain of bacteria that will build up that consumes nitrite and produces nitrate. Nitrate is much less toxic to your fish but will need to be kept in check by water changes (I like to do 50% twice a month, but all of my tanks are understocked.)

What I would do first thing in the morning (now, tomorrow is Labor day so this might not work out for you) is go to your LFS (petsmart/co won't have it, find a local store) and ask for BioSpira or some other kind of auto cycler. It should be a bag of stinky pink liquid. You will need 2 ounces.

Also purchase an aerator and an air pump. There are three reasons for this:

1. You have a lot of fish in your tank. More fish means more oxygen consumption means, especially under stressed conditions you may be running low on O2.
2. If your tank is beginning to cycle, but isn't complete (I suspect this as you have had the fish for a while and are only now noticing this problem) there may be nitrification going on but no nitrafiction... so you will have the blood oxygen absorption problem.
3. If your fish are stressed out, it is a good idea to raise the tank temperature a bit to help fight off infection (it's like giving them a mini fever). Again, higher temps mean less dissolved O2. (Do not raise your temp higher than 82 deg F).

After you make your purchases, go home, do a 75 percent water change, and pour in your auto-cycler. Set up your aerator.

Check your water stats (you need a test kit that measures Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate. pH is a good idea too) twice a day -- you should see ammonia at 0, nitrite at 0, and some nitrates if things are going well.

Note: If you cannot find auto-cycler, there is a product made by Seachem called Stability that claims to serve the same function. Not a lot of us here have faith in it but it is better than nothing. Seachem's Prime will also detox your water if it has chlorine or ammonia in it.

Is your sick fish the largest one? He will be your oxygen deprivation canary. He will be the first to suffer.

You mentioned that you had a tank downstairs. Can you tell us more about this tank as well?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

chronotrigger said:


> I don't think I have any mbuna or tangs mixed in. Are you saying things will get hairy if they breed?


Once you get your tank cycled, these are the things to keep in mind regarding stocking. They will breed (if you mix genders) whether you want them to or not so these factors still merit consideration.

Peacocks and Nyereri are harem breeders, think in terms of 1m:4f to spread the male agression across a larger number of females.
Cories prefer a lower pH and are not likely to stand up to cichlid aggression. 
Frontosa thrive in a 72" species-only tank, rambunctious mbuna disturb them
"purplish cichlids with yellow/orange fins" sound like Pseudotropheus Acei, a mbuna


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## chronotrigger (Sep 5, 2010)

I'm not familiar with photobucket. Here is the purple/yellowish one.







Can I make it to where only one link can access my whole album?


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## chronotrigger (Sep 5, 2010)

A few of the downstairs tank.


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## chronotrigger (Sep 5, 2010)

temp: 80 deg
PH: 8.2
ammonia: 0 ppm
nitrite: .50 ppm
nitrate: 40-80 ppm
I guess a water change is necessary?


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## AnnaFish (Aug 9, 2006)

Yup yup.

Looks like you are partway through that cycle. 0 ammonia but you still have nitrites. Also that's a decent amount of nitrate.

50-75% water change IMO.

I'm glad you got a hold of those test kits. Did you find any autocycler?


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## chronotrigger (Sep 5, 2010)

It shows on my API test kit diag. chart that adding salt is good when the water is high in nitrites. So if I change 30 gal I need to add 6 tbsp of salt back. Does it heart my bio filter more when I add in the tapwater before/after adding prime v.s. mixing prime into the tapwater before adding it to the tank. I guess it doesn't really matter because it wouldn't be feasible any ways. No I did not get any auto cyler. I emptied some of my eheim "nasty" water from our established tank into the 55 gal. when I initially started this tank. I was told that would help start the bio filter. Will I be ok without the auto cyler? Thank you so very much.


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## PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn (Dec 26, 2005)

I would advocate doing a 50% WC using a 5* dose of prime to lock the ammonia/nitrite as a non-toxic form

this enables you to have a high level of nitrite for the bacteria, but not poisoning the fish. thus speeding the cycle and minimizing the risk to your fish.

the issue being that it wont be easy to test the levels (it'l still register as nitrite) so I would recommend 50% once a week, with the 5* dose to treat the water in the tank, adding the strong dose for the tank volume if the fish seem to be gasping.


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## chronotrigger (Sep 5, 2010)

Just did a 50% WC and added a half a cap of prime. It says to use a capfull per 50 gal. Should I add more? No fish are gasping. I quarantined that one yesterday. He just got treated with clout again (day 2). All my fish are feeding well except one. I think she is holding allready (well what do you know.) I sure hope so, her mouth looks flare like all the others I've seen. Should I start preventatively feeding all my fish medicated food, or do ya'll think it's my nitrate/nitrite levels causing my one fish to stress.?


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## AnnaFish (Aug 9, 2006)

Looks like you found your own autocylcer! In the future, I would transplant some filter media instead of the sludge. I'm sorry I didn't think of that before. I kept forgetting you had another tank. Anyway, Psychotic's 5X prime suggestion is very good. Prime will lock up the toxic ammonia and nitrite into an inert form that won't harm the fish but can still be converted by the bacteria.

I don't know how half a cup compares to a cap full, but five caps is fine. It is good that you quarantined the ghasper. Are you sure he has clout (I don't know anything about Clout other than that it exists.)

As far as medicating the food, I, personally, would hold off. Maybe wait for another opinion. But unless you are noticing symptoms in other fish, preventatively medicating is not recommended. The only time I know of people pre-medicating is for tropheus against bloat because they so often have it coming out of your LFS.

At this point I would continue to monitor the situation, do water changes as needed, and other than that, try to keep stress to a minimum. Keep an eye on that female.


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## chronotrigger (Sep 5, 2010)

I believe/ed him to have bloat for no other reason than he was hidng when feeding (not eating for 2 days, almost 5 now-treating-), alltogether lethargic, and gasping for air. He looks a little better now. "Clout" is a medication I'm treating him with. Female is pictured in new peacock thread in Malawi forumn.


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## AnnaFish (Aug 9, 2006)

I always forget Clout is a medication.

It sounds like a disease!

lol


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Those symptoms may have been attributable to the toxins in the water rather than bloat.


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## AnnaFish (Aug 9, 2006)

Yeah since he was the biggest, he'd have been most affected by an inability to absorb oxygen.


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## chronotrigger (Sep 5, 2010)

He wasn't the biggest. He didn't start acting like that til after my buddy added what we think are two different kinds of haps to the tank. Both of them were at least a 1.3-1.5X as large as the gasper. Started acting funny a couple days after. I figure I might as well continue to treat him all the way through since I did start. I'll continue to do 50% wc weekly until my cycle is completely stable.


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## Fevz (Nov 18, 2009)

I'll ask my question here, so i don't have to open new topic. 
I have my aquarium for about a year and it was doing great until this week. The fish are all scared and if i come close to tank they swim away under rocks and roots. They were not acting like this before. 
Today i found my only female geophagus dead and all of the fishes were breathing heavy. I emediately did some water testing with a nitrite 0,05 mg/l and nitrate 25mg/l. 
I thik they were breathing heavy because of the nitrite in the tank, so i imediately did a 25% WC and they seem to be breathing a bit better.

So is there annything to do to get rid of nitrite and to get them back to normal? Should i do WC every day or what?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

To get rid of nitrite you need beneficial bacteria to grow (or regrow). You can wait, or add Dr. Tim's One and Only to help with this. Or if you have another established tank, you can add a used filter or filter material to the tank with the nitrite problem.

In the meantime, yes, nitrite will cause your fish to breathe heavy because it burns their gills. What is your nitrite measurement now? You should do water changes as required (test every day) to keep the nitrite under 0.05.

Nitrite can permanently damage your fish. What are the readings for ammonia?


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## chronotrigger (Sep 5, 2010)

Yesterday was the third day in a row I did a 50% wc on my 55 gal. with the gasping nyerei. I will measure the nitrates when I get home. Hopefully they should be down around 10-20 ppm. We shall see. The quarantined fish finally seems to be eating (very timidly) and is much more active. He is still breathing heavier than I would like. The qt tank is very well aerated and is easily within all acceptable parameters. It looks like I need to thin the herd so to speak. I'll start with the female peacocks since they'll just crossbreed with other fish in the tank. I'm thinking of getting a 30 gal. to put the 9 female peacocks from both my tanks in. Do you think that maybe in 6 months to a year they will be big enough to acurately id? They're mostly around 3 in. long but not real "tall" which leads me to believe they're still fairly young.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

3" is pretty mature for a peacock. If they are females you can't expect to ID the species no matter how mature they are as females of many species look almost identical.

A 30G probably won't be big enough for 9 3" fish. I have 4 peacocks in my 36" tank and they are crowded.

Glad to hear your QT fish is feeling better!


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## chronotrigger (Sep 5, 2010)

The qt fish is definitely eating now. I checked the nitrates last night after doing a 50% wc three days in a row (didn't do one yesterday) and it read as 20 ppm. This morning my female nyerei is still gasping and not eating. How long should I wait before I make a judgement on if the nyerei has bloat or if it's just the nitrates that were way too high?


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## Fevz (Nov 18, 2009)

I did three WC in three days and i still get some nitrates on the tests. It shows a bit below 0.05. So i think i'll make another watec change tomorow because they still breathe quite fast


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## chronotrigger (Sep 5, 2010)

My qt'ed fish died (an aneocolor from what I'm told) about an hour ago. I was going to begin day three of the treatment @ six today. All the parameters in the qt tank were fine. It's been 4 to 5 day since I noticed symptoms. The fact that my male "aneocolor" is showing some similar symptoms is what concerns me more. We were never able to diagnose what was causing these symptoms, high nitrates or some sort of sickness. I have lightened the load in the tank recently and do not see much aggression. Should I start feeding with met soaked in? I believe the parameters to be acceptable but will do my tests in a bit. In the meantime I'll change the water in the qt tank to get it ready in case I decide to remove the male aneocolor. Your shared knowledge is greatly appreciated.-Go Texans!-


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

So the fish you are concerned about now is an aneocolor in the 55G? I'm not familiar with the aneocolor, is that the Astatotilapia aneocolor?

What are your test results for pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?

What is your new stock list?

What are the symptoms of the male aneocolor at this time?


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## chronotrigger (Sep 5, 2010)

Ph: 8-8.2, ammonia: 0, nitrite: 0, nitrate: 40 ppm. 1 red jewel, 2 frontosa kigoma, 5 kadango red fin, supposedly 1 male and 3 female aneocolor (i think I have two males and two females,) 4 insignus, 2 hap comp, 1 male peacock, 1 clown loach, 5 corys, and 3 clown plecos. Not much aggression. They're all small fish. What would you think of that mix in a 100+ gal tank? I do plan on getting at least that large of a tank in 3 months. I really don't want to sell any fish back because I wouldn't think the lfs would give me what I paid for them. I guess a wc is in order. Thanks.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

1 red jewel
2 frontosa kigoma
5 kadango red fin
2 male and 2 female aneocolor
4 insignus
2 hap comp
1 male peacock
1 clown loach
5 corys
3 clown plecos

It's easier for me to evaluate the list in the above format. Still too many and not the best mix for a 55G. Are any of the fish larger than 1.5" including tail?

What are the symptoms of the aneocolor at this time?

As you know, aggression is often not witnessed. Looking at that mix unless these are all fry it would be hard to believe you don't have some aggression. I don't think I would do this mix in any size tank to be honest.

I would decide all-male or mixed gender. If all male I would stock one male of each species. If mixed gender, choose 3 species and stock 1m:3-4f In either case I would lose the fronts, the clown loach and the cories. Plus lose any fish that matures at more than 6".

If they get sick and die, you are not going to get what you paid for them either. Plus you had to buy all the medicine. Eventually if you do mixed gender you will have fry and recover your investment. :thumb:


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

OP -- I hope you appreciate how kind and patient folks are being on this forum. If you had posted that stock list and your lack of understanding about cycling on another fish forum I visit, you'd have been ripped a new one!!!

Please take advantage of the great library here to study species and stocking and take the time to figure out what you want your tank to be:

all mbuna
peacock/hap with breeding
male peacock hap

And then adjust your stocking to meet your desires.

Immediately, though, remove all the cories and find another home for them or put them in a tropical fish set-up of some kind. They don't belong in an African cichlid tank under any circumstance.


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## chronotrigger (Sep 5, 2010)

Why no cories? What's the reasoning? Because they need different parameters, get bullied, etc. I have had cories in both tanks with african cichlids and they have flourished. My buddy Tye's cories on the other hand get their eyes pecked out. I initially thought they would be beneficial in cleaning up excess waste, but now have learned if I don't overfeed that shouldn't be an issue. Not only that, but they contribute toward the bio load even though they are the size of a nickel. The cories are going bye, bye I guess. Why no clown loach? The only reason I ask that is because I really like him. And no frontosa because they are too laid back? Our two frontosa in the dowstairs tank seem to be thriving and they're mixed in with haps, peacocks, and mbuna. They have learned not to take any $&#@. I plan on doing a mixed gender tank. I was thinking I could see what the juvenile insignus and red fins turn out to be and then aquire or get rid of fish to obtain the correct ratio of males to females. I would also like to have my aneocolors too. I do plan on getting a 140-180 gal. tank in 3-4 months. I was under the impression that in my 140 gal. I could have my all male peacocks/haps mixed in with mbuna. For example maybe 6 demasoni (1m,5f) and 6 yellow lab (1m, 5f). If my understanding is correct it may not be the best idea, but if the tank is large enough it won't be as big of a problem. I was wanting a good variety of size and color.


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## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

Cories are a new world fish that have different temperament and water needs than Africans. They are fine with dwarf SA cichlids, though, if you wanted to go in that direction.

As for no clown loaches, some folks do put them in with Africans, but others (like me) strive for more true-to-type tanks and don't.

Now that said, many of us with Malawi tanks do include synodontis catfish even though they are technically from a different African lake. BTW, they do everything a cory would in terms of keeping the bottom clean, but have the added benefit of being extremely beautiful, suitable to the higher pH and rarely are bothered by the cichlids.

I don't keep frontosa, so I don't know how well they'd do in a "mixed lake" tank. If your tank is large enough, they might be fine. If I were to have frontosas, just speaking for myself, I'd have them in a species only tank.

Three mbuna species do extremely well mixed with peacocks and haps -- yellow labs, "rusties," and p. acei. All three of these can be in groups with gender not a big deal in a tank with either another breeding group of peacocks or haps or with an assortment of male peacocks/haps.

Many folks also do a demonsoni and lab tank, which has nice color and activity. I have no experience with this as I don't like the aggression level of demonsoni.

Hope this helps!


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## chronotrigger (Sep 5, 2010)

Time to cruise the library.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

So meanwhile, what are the current symptoms of the aneocolor?


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## chronotrigger (Sep 5, 2010)

Same as the peacock was. Not eating and lethargic. Breathing harder each day. I haven't seen any stringy, white poop. Just did a 50% wc.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Is he lurking under the surface, behind filter intakes or heaters? Ever hovering in a vertical position? Any swelling around the eyes or belly? Do you see regular poop?


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## chronotrigger (Sep 5, 2010)

No regular or white poo. He does seem to be hiding. He looks more full than what I think he should.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The inability to poop at all is also a symptom that can be caused by bloat. The hiding in the places and positions I described is a symptom of harassment and therefore stress. The problem you will have if you remove him to treat is the same thing will happen when you return him to the tank. Once a victim always a victim I have found.

How many days since he has eaten? How long has it been since you had nitrite in the tank? And all the other fish are eating and pooping?

Maybe the right thing to do is treat him in another tank and while he is recovering, you could redo your stock in the 55G? Or get the 72" (or larger) tank set up?

So in a 72" mixed gender tank you would want maybe 5 species. 1m:4f of each. In addition to the others listed, I would lose the jewel and fronts. Not sure about the compatibility of the remaining haps but others can chime in.


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## chronotrigger (Sep 5, 2010)

It's been 6 days since the male has eaten. All the other fish in the tank are eating met soaked food and pooing normally. A male and female are both qt'ed and being treated with clout to be honest with you. Today is the third day of treatment. It's been 2 weeks since there's been any nitrite in the tank. I felt I had to do something.


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