# Nitrates, how much is too much?



## Boe82 (Mar 6, 2014)

I have been doing some reading on this and I am not sure I have really gotten anywhere. I have a tank that is empty atm, it is still established(hasn't been empty for very long), but the nitrates are testing at 160ppm(api master kit), I did a 50% pwc lastnight then I fill it up and did another 30% try try and get as much debris out as I could, test again this morning and it is still or rose back up to, 160ppm. Right now it has a UGF, but I plan on taking that out eventually once I have a HoB established on it, the tank has been set up for many many years now, my future plan for it is to eventually move my calico convicts and raphael catfish into it, but it may temporarily hold some african cichlids, at most I hope only a couple of weeks, until my 125 finishes cycling. That is, unless the nitrates are just too much.
I have read it many ways, from trying to keep it around 20ppm, to only go as high as 40-50ppm and even that nitrates to a point don't matter until you start seeing 200+ppm, since my kit stops at 160ppm, I don't know where it is for sure, but I am a little worried at this point about putting any fish in it.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

20ppm is the signal for a water change. Fish can handle a higher level if they've gotten used to it but over the long-term it does them harm. You definitely don't want to introduce fish to the tank till you get the problem resolved.

Have you tested your tap water? Sometimes that can be a contributing factor.

How old is your test kit? You can get inaccurate readings from old ones.

If the above issues are not the problem, my guess is that your UGF is probably the culprit. They can become nitrate factories.


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## Boe82 (Mar 6, 2014)

Yea, that's why I am trying to get away from them(UGF). I don't know how long the store had the test kit but I haven't had it for very long, less then two weeks, my other tank only tested at 10ppm Nitrate, but it is cycling.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

Boe82 said:


> Yea, that's why I am trying to get away from them(UGF). I don't know how long the store had the test kit but I haven't had it for very long, less then two weeks, my other tank only tested at 10ppm Nitrate, but it is cycling.


OK. So it's not your test kit or the tap water.

My advice would be to remove the substrate and rinse it in a bucket using tank water. Take out the UGF and get the HOB started. You could treat the tank like you're doing an accelerated fishless cycle (including dosing ammonia). My guess is that you'd cycle fairly quickly since the beneficial bacteria are in the substrate.

This seems the fastest way to be able to be able to get fish into the tank without exposing them to toxic nitrate levels.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

I agree with zimmy, I would remove the UG filter now and get rid of all the gunk that is under it. You can minimize the amount of gunk that is released into the tank by manually siphoning through the up tubes of the UG filter with a hose.


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## dledinger (Mar 20, 2013)

I could never see how anyone gets any resolution in the API kit after about 40 or so PPM. I change water every Friday. Its red when I change it, yellow afterwards.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

It is hard to get any resolution at high concentrations, but what's happening in this case is that the UG filter has a large pool of solid waste that will dissolve a bit with each water change- it's a losing battle to wait for the mulm to dissapate in water changes. So, yeah- yank out the UG filter, rinse the substrate until water runs clear, then you'll be in good shape to reestablish the biological nitrogen cycle.


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## dledinger (Mar 20, 2013)

I think we are over complicating this. The op needs to do a series of water changes until the test shows straw yellow, and then figure out water weekly percent water change will keep it there. Its science for sure, but its not rocket science IMO.

Regarding the undergravel, theyre frowned upon greatly these days, but can work absolutely fine as they did for decades if well maintained. Its sad to see undergravel filters crapped on by so many people who have never used one! Not to apply that to everyone in this thread....it just seems to be a trend on all the forums I frequent.


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## Thalas_shaya (Mar 10, 2014)

> I have read it many ways, from trying to keep it around 20ppm, to only go as high as 40-50ppm and even that nitrates to a point don't matter until you start seeing 200+ppm, since my kit stops at 160ppm, I don't know where it is for sure, but I am a little worried at this point about putting any fish in it.


There are many freshwater species that can tolerate higher nitrates, particularly if they creep up there over time, but cichlids are not one of those species. You have to keep their nitrates lower, and generally 20 ppm is regarded as the max.
City of London, UK tapwater comes out at 40-50 ppm nitrate, and many Londoners still manage to keep fish, so 20 ppm is not an absolute upper limit. I've read stories of snail tanks that flourished at VERY high nitrate, so there are some critters that appreciate it, just not cichlids.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

dledinger said:


> I think we are over complicating this. The op needs to do a series of water changes until the test shows straw yellow, and then figure out water weekly percent water change will keep it there. Its science for sure, but its not rocket science IMO.


Rinsing the gravel in tank water, removing the UGF and replacing the gravel in the tank is a pretty straightforward set of steps. It may sound like rocket science but it's going to be more effective and far less labour intensive (not to mention less wasteful of water) than doing many water changes. Addressing the root cause usually leads to a good outcome more quickly than just dealing with the symptoms.



> Regarding the undergravel, theyre frowned upon greatly these days, but can work absolutely fine as they did for decades if well maintained. Its sad to see undergravel filters crapped on by so many people who have never used one! Not to apply that to everyone in this thread....it just seems to be a trend on all the forums I frequent.


I admit I've never used a UGF (I use sand in my tanks so they wouldn't work for me anyway). I'm curious to learn what maintaining them well looks like.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Way back when I was a teenager, I worked for a family run fish store that used undergravel filters in all the tanks. One of my duties was to maintain the tanks, remove dead fish and water changes. Shutting off the air supply to the uplift tube, a length of vinyl tubing was shoved down the uplift tube and the accumulated debris was then siphoned out from under the undergravel filter plate. This method works fairly well, similar to the present day method of gravel vacuuming. It wasn't a perfect solution but was very common back in the day.

Planted tanks and undergravel filters was a bit more difficult because the plant roots would intertwine in the UG slots and reduce the amount of debris that could be removed easily.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled program!!!


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

I have used UGFs and am much happier without them.

As far as high nitrates go- remember that most lakes and streams, even those subject to wastewater effluent, have nitrate concentrations below 1 ppm. So, when we say 20 mg/L is okay for aquariums, we're still way out of the ball park when compared to natural systems. Ground water (where the high nitrate in tap water comes from) doesn't usually support a robust aquatic biome, so it can be a bit of a quandary to figure out what the fish can handle.


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## Boe82 (Mar 6, 2014)

> Rinsing the gravel in tank water, removing the UGF and replacing the gravel in the tank is a pretty straightforward set of steps. It may sound like rocket science but it's going to be more effective and far less labour intensive (not to mention less wasteful of water) than doing many water changes. Addressing the root cause usually leads to a good outcome more quickly than just dealing with the symptoms.


This is what I eventually plan on doing, actually I was getting ready to do it when I had to separate a couple convicts, so now the tank has an inhabitant, I got a secondary HoB filter running in it building up bacteria(it is new) so once it has had a good while to run and get established, I will start the process of removing the ugf


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## dledinger (Mar 20, 2013)

Just as with any filter, we have to clean the mulm from our mechanical and biomedia, a UGF is no different. It's absolutey amazing how much **** accumulates in the gravel. I've seen 3" of gravel packed absolutely full of trash.

Keep in mind, years ago many freshwater fishkeepers thought it was bad to change water. Tanks running for a year, or years, with only top offs and tiny changes incindental to periodic cleanings were commonplace. Can you imagine the nitrates in a tank like that...they had to be off the map!


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## ozman (Sep 7, 2012)

dledinger said:


> Just as with any filter, we have to clean the mulm from our mechanical and biomedia, a UGF is no different. It's absolutey amazing how much #%$& accumulates in the gravel. I've seen 3" of gravel packed absolutely full of trash.
> 
> Keep in mind, years ago many freshwater fishkeepers thought it was bad to change water. Tanks running for a year, or years, with only top offs and tiny changes incindental to periodic cleanings were commonplace. Can you imagine the nitrates in a tank like that...they had to be off the map!


yep i remember those days way back when i was around 13yrs im 54 now that i tried my very first tropical tank it was only 2ft with neon tetras etc. 
what a disaster with my own lack of knowledge and the lack of help in those days. :-?

thanks to time and sites as this we have so much help that if you do your homework it's almost impossible to fail. HOMEWORK is the key word and follow it through.


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