# Metronidazole and Brine Shrimp for Bloat



## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

My new 90G project has succumb to bloat. Three of the nine fish in the tank are not eating flakes, crisps or pellets. However, when i feed frozen brine shrimp they actually eat some without spitting, reluctantly but they actually do eat a little. I am currently treating with Jungle Parasite Clear and plan on doing three treatment spread 48 hours apart with a 25% WC before each treatment.

AFTER treatment is finished, i want to feed Met treated brine shrimp for a few days seeing that its the only food that they ingest. Does anybody know how to dose Met and Brine Shrimp?

Thanks


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## jordanroda (May 4, 2006)

Dude.
brine shrimp is your problem


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

jordanroda said:


> Dude.
> brine shrimp is your problem


no, i never feed brine shrimp. after they stopped eating for almost a week, i bought some frozen brine shrimp for a "test" and they ate "some" reluctantly which gave me a sign of hope.

the fish i keep are haps and peacocks not mbuna.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Seachem recommends 1 measure (100mg) per 1 tablespoon of frozen food paste.
I would double this for usage as treatment for bloat.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

GTZ said:


> Seachem recommends 1 measure (100mg) per 1 tablespoon of frozen food paste.
> I would double this for usage as treatment for bloat.


Wow that seems like a strong dose. i have read on some reef boards that they soak food in a 1% Metronidazole solution for a few hours and then feed. that on the other hand seems to be not enough.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Perhaps start out with 100mg/tbsp.
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product ... azole.html

```
There is little danger of overdosing. Usual dose is 125 mg/10 gallons.
Use 1Ã¢â‚¬â€œ2 measures (each about 100 mg) for every 40 L (10 gallons).
```


```
To feed, blend 1 measure with about 1 tablespoon of frozen food paste.
```
I'm going by what I've read regarding metro being difficult to overdose.
Dosages vary quite a bit from one manufacturer to another, Fishzole recommend 250mg/10g while Seachem says 125mg/10g. I don't think dosages need to be all that accurate.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

Would buying tablets from the Pharmacy and crushing them into a powder be the same as buying Seachem Metroplex? Its SO expensive around here.

I am going to try it and when its all over i will post my experience with bloat, metronidazole, epsom salt and parasit clear. i am hoping for a 100% recovery. This is my second case of bloat in over 13 years of keeping Malawi cichlids. Sadly, these fish came from a reputable breedier in my area and i am 99.9% certain i bought them already ill. I contacted him right away and he said there was no guarantee on WC fish.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

With bloat you don't really want them to eat unless they are fully recovered, at which time they will eat the normal food with gusto.

If I buy metronidazole from a fish room supplier rather than a branded medication it is less expensive. Shop around.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

DJRansome said:


> With bloat you don't really want them to eat unless they are fully recovered, at which time they will eat the normal food with gusto.
> 
> If I buy metronidazole from a fish room supplier rather than a branded medication it is less expensive. Shop around.


I want to be prepared if after the treatment they still will not eat. At that point I would want them to ingest the medication via brine shrimp because they seem to eat a little of that at least.


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## eeztropheus (Jan 10, 2010)

Don't worry about them not eating. DJRansome is right you should not be feeding at all during treatment for bloat. Think about it, if your fish have an intestinal blockage due to bloat feeding is only going to compound the problem. During treatment your fish will be fine if they don't eat for a week.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Hard to say whether or not to feed metro soaked food to an *already, clearly bloated fish*. On one hand, as you say, you may be compounding the problem, on the other hand, if there's an opportunity to get a more concentrated dosage into the fish, you should.
Also, you need to be careful when determining whether the fish has bloat or not, apart from the obvious swelling. A fish with bloat doesn't eat at all.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

GTZ said:


> Hard to say whether or not to feed metro soaked food to an *already, clearly bloated fish*. On one hand, as you say, you may be compounding the problem, on the other hand, if there's an opportunity to get a more concentrated dosage into the fish, you should.
> Also, you need to be careful when determining whether the fish has bloat or not, apart from the obvious swelling. A fish with bloat doesn't eat at all.


the swelling has been minor but present. thankfully the swelling has been going down with each passing day. as stated before, the affected fish started out by having ZERO interest in food. now they are showing interest in food but they spit it out immediately. however, the brine shrimp seems to "stay" in them but they eat one or two and then just hover there whereas the healthy fish are going CRAZY over the brine shrimp.


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## Kanorin (Apr 8, 2008)

I think there is no way around dosing the water with metro or clout to make sure that even fish which aren't eating (or eat very little) get enough medication.

If you want to additionally feed metro-soaked food to the tank during the recovery period - I guess this isn't a bad idea to ensure the epidemic does not come back. However, know that changes in diet can probably contribute to intestinal stress and maybe to bloat in the first place. So I'd stay away from any new foods during this period. If you already feed your fish brine shrimp once a week, then maybe this is ok since they are used to it (although some might argue this kind of diet may contribute to bloat in the first place!).


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## fish_addiction (Sep 29, 2009)

Kanorin said:


> I think there is no way around dosing the water with metro or clout to make sure that even fish which aren't eating (or eat very little) get enough medication.
> 
> If you want to additionally feed metro-soaked food to the tank during the recovery period - I guess this isn't a bad idea to ensure the epidemic does not come back. However, know that changes in diet can probably contribute to intestinal stress and maybe to bloat in the first place. So I'd stay away from any new foods during this period. If you already feed your fish brine shrimp once a week, then maybe this is ok since they are used to it (although some might argue this kind of diet may contribute to bloat in the first place!).


Agreed,

Treat the whole tank asap. I wouldn't feed the fish at all while you're treating. Clout worked great for me, but like most, I learned the hard way. I followed the instructions in this post to a "T", and it saved my fish from the brink of death: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=24132
Good luck


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

my tank is already undergoing treatment...i stated this in the original post.


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## fish_addiction (Sep 29, 2009)

Mudkicker said:


> my tank is already undergoing treatment...i stated this in the original post.


Yes, but you also stated that you're feeding or trying to feed brine shrimp which is a huge mistake with African cichlids. I was pointing you to a thread showing a method that alot of folks, including myself have used with success. Forget trying to feed the fish anything. If you're treating with Metro, then I would say keep it up, but I've never used it, just clout.

Also, you should have posted this in the "Illnes, health and nutrition" forum.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

fish_addiction said:


> Mudkicker said:
> 
> 
> > my tank is already undergoing treatment...i stated this in the original post.
> ...


I don't know, I think it was pretty clear that the brine shrimp was just a test...and that I was not feeding during treatment.



Mudkicker said:


> no, i never feed brine shrimp. after they stopped eating for almost a week, i bought some frozen brine shrimp for a "test" and they ate "some" reluctantly which gave me a sign of hope.
> the fish i keep are haps and peacocks not mbuna.





Mudkicker said:


> AFTER treatment is finished, i want to feed Met treated brine shrimp for a few days seeing that its the only food that they ingest. Does anybody know how to dose Met and Brine Shrimp?


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

This is a confusing one. If a fish is bloated because it has an intestinal blockage then initially I wouldn't medicate at all--I'd stop feeding and add Epsom salt to help things move along. If a fish is bloated because it has bloat, well, fish that have bloat don't eat. :? 
mudkicker's fish sound like they have bloat until you get to the brine shrimp eating part. Perhaps brine shrimp is just impossible to pass up--even for a fish that has bloat?? I honestly don't know.

But getting back to your question: how to dose metronidazole with brine shrimp. Not sure if brine shrimp is the best way to go as far as a met-vehicle, but I think I would first of all finish out the JPC, (which contains metronidazole) and then if the fish are eating and swimming normally there's really no need to feed them medicated food. Bloat is thought to be caused when the fish comes under some sort of stress, (rough handling, aggressive tank mates, poor water conditions, etc) and the flagellates that normally reside harmlessly in the fish's intestines suddenly increase in numbers and overwhelm the fish. 
So if your intention is to ward off future bloat episodes the best plan is to keep the tank as stress-free as possible. 
Whatever treatment you choose: fit in as many partial water changes before, during and after treatment as you can. It's believed that bloat is spread when healthy fish mouth infected feces so the water changes and gravel siphonings will help with that but I've also read that the flagellates may have a free swimming stage during an bloat outbreak so the water changes and gravel siphonings will help in that regard also.

If you choose to feed fish metronidazole soaked food--food of any kind, then I would go with the dosage that GTZ recommended.

Robin


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

thanks for all the replies....i will post the conclusion to my bloat experience.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

Need your ideas...

Today marks 48 hours since my third and final treatment of Jungle Parasite Clear.

I plan on doing a 50% water change and add some carbon. I will keep the Epsom Salt mixutre going for 1 more week.

I decided to hold off on feeding the brime shrimp mixed with Met.

When should I try to feed normal food?


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Didn't you start on Monday? What was your treatment schedule?


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

Oh, I think you had already started when you posted on Monday.
Following your initial post, you treated for 9 days (3 dosages each followed by 2 days per dosage).
At this point, I would, as you say, perform a water change and a thorough vacuum. I would probably attempt a metro soaked pellet feeding, not a lot, just a few pellets and see if they're readily and quickly eaten. If they are, stop feeding and observe as often as you can for bowel movements. From there, either continue feeding metro soaked food daily for the next few days or, begin another JPC treatment after a 48 hour break.
Any physical difference with the fish compared to the beginning of treatment?


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

GTZ said:


> Didn't you start on Monday? What was your treatment schedule?


my first treatment was on Friday evening.

the fish look much better and are behaving normally. only one was showing a slight swollen belly but it looks very much back to normal now.


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

did a 75% WC, added carbon and replenished Epsom salt. waited a few hours, fed some spirulina flakes and there is absolutely no change. the sick fish are still spitting.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Sometimes it just takes longer--(another round of meds) to do the trick but it's also possible that the failure of the JPC to clear this up is telling us that perhaps it's not bloat. Hard to know.

You might try doing another round of JPC
or
you might try the Clout
or 
you might go a completely different route and treat for an internal bacterial infection. I would try one of the following: 
Maracyn and Maracyn-two, used concurently
Furan 2
Kanamycin--Kanaplex

Sorry not to give you something more definitive. It's really difficult to diagnose over the internet--so many fish illnesses show the same symptoms so you basically have to go with your best guess since you can't do any actual testing on the fish and then add to that the confusion over Bloat itself. There are many who believe it's primarily bacterial in nature so that's why if someone has faithfully done the anti-parasite route I suggest going with an antibacterial.

Whichever way you go continue doing as many partial water changes as you can using a good quality dechlorinator.

Robin


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

Robin said:


> Sometimes it just takes longer--(another round of meds) to do the trick but it's also possible that the failure of the JPC to clear this up is telling us that perhaps it's not bloat. Hard to know.
> 
> You might try doing another round of JPC
> or
> ...


Thanks for the reply. 
I may try the antibacterial route. Before the JPC treatment, i had done a Seachem Metroplex treatment and followed the Seachem directions. It lasted around 1 week. 100mg every 48 hours. My tank is 90g so after 4 doses the container was finished.
In short, 1 week of Metroplex followed by 1 week of JPC and still no change. This means that the sickest fish(3) have not eaten anything in over 2 weeks. 1 in particular is beginning to look very thin and frail. 
I have been keeping fish since the mid 90's and this has been by far my biggest challenge. My gut tells me it might be something else because i have treated similar symptoms before and had great success with JPC.
I am SO upset at the breeder that sold me these sick fish. :x 
When i contacted him less that 1 week after i took them home, he told me that there no guarantee on Wild Caugt fish. 3 of the 9 fish in the tank are WC, however only 1 of the Wc is sick...its the sickest one as a matter of fact.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Do try the antibacterial route. I feel a little more inclined towards it after this last post of yours.

Metronidazole works as an anti-bacterial and anti-parasite and it's a great medication but some bacterias need a specific anti-biotic to knock them down. Same with parasites--some meds are going to work better on certain parasites then others. 


> 1 in particular is beginning to look very thin and frail.


Something that is commonly referred to as 'Skinny Disease' comes to mind. The med that I usually recommend for that is the Maracyn combination. Best if you put the fish in a hospital tank for this one as it can get expensive treating the entire tank. You might also do a search for 'skinny disease' to see if any pictures descriptions match what you're seeing in your fish.



> This means that the sickest fish(3) have not eaten anything in over 2 weeks.


 Not a huge concern now. Fish can go for a month or more without eating. Getting them to eat at this point is more of a test to see if they're getting better. 


> I am SO upset at the breeder that sold me these sick fish.


 I don't blame you but the dealer may not be to blame. Fish become more susceptible to disease when they are stressed and no matter how careful you and the breeder are the journey the fish take to get to you is inheritantly stressful. Plus the breeder may not have had them long enough to observe any tell-tale symptoms.

Let us know how it goes

Robin


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

Robin said:


> Do try the antibacterial route. I feel a little more inclined towards it after this last post of yours.
> 
> Metronidazole works as an anti-bacterial and anti-parasite and it's a great medication but some bacterias need a specific anti-biotic to knock them down. Same with parasites--some meds are going to work better on certain parasites then others.
> 
> ...


Seeing that i have over $300.00 invested in my 9 fish, i might as well spread the wallet and treat the whole tank with Maracyn and Maracyn 2, don't you think? How much does one box treat? My tank is 90G. How many treatments do you suggest?

thanks


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Mardel Instructions:
Add the contents of one packet per 10 gallons of water and repeat every 24 hours for 5 days. Repeat this 5 day treatment only once if needed. Important: Treat for 5 days even if visible signs disappear. May be used concurrently with Coppersafe, Maracide, Maracyn Two or Maroxy.

For just the Maracyn: one package of 24 will cost somewhere around 12 dollars--Maracyn-two is probably the same. Often you do end up doing the second 5 day treatment.

And even tho 'they' always say it won't effect your bio-filter I would at the very least test the water before, during and after treatment.

Robin


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

UPDATE

All fish except for 1 are slowly but surely showing signs of improvement. No more spitting and they are eating more and more eagerly with every passing day(veggie flakes only). Starting to notice normal feces as well.

I have isolated the 1 fish that did not repond to treatment in a bare 20g and am currently treating with Maracyn and Maracyn Two...but it does not look good.

It would seem thah the JPC has done the trick...i was expecting much worse. I am sure that the Epsom salt and daily water changes helped things along.

M


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## Mudkicker (Apr 2, 2003)

UPDATE

have not lost a fish so far.

all fish are behaving normally and eating.

however, there are two fish that are eating in a way that i have never seen before. they take the flake from the surface, then dive down to the bottom, position themsleves in a 45 degree headstand, seems like they are chewing the flake for a few seconds, then they release a few "bubbles" from their gills and then shoot back up to take more flakes and repeat the process all over again. they never spit the food.

anyone ever seen this behaviour before?


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