# Roundy's ammonia - Bio-Spira and cycling



## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

Hi all,

Is anyone familiar with the generic RoundyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s brand ammonia? Is it safe for cycling? It list active ingredients of Ammonium Hydroxide and says it contains No Phosphorus. It lists no other ingredients.

I also bought some Bio-Spira to get the bacteria started. Should I grow a batch of bacteria in a smaller container (5-gal) and make sure that this works first? I have a 90-gal. tank, new never used.

Thanks


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

As long as it doesn't contain surfactants it should be good.
You can test by shaking: if there aren't any bubbles it should be cool.
I am not sure about phosphorus though, high levels of that can't be a good thing.

As for Bio-Spira, I haven't used it or any other bacteria in a bottle stuff.
To me they seem hit and miss so I just go with seeded media from seasoned filters.
It really is a more dependable method as long as the tank it came from isn't diseased. :thumb:


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

@smellsfishy1: Hey thanks. I will try the shake method. Oh and it says it contains No phosphorus so... good there. Unfortunately I don't know anyone with established tanks, or any tanks for that matter. I was thinking of a pet store but was advised against do to possible disease. So, here is to hoping this bio-spira works... :?


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

Ok so I shook the un-opened container. HmmmÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ seems to be air bubbles that disappear very quickly. No sign of suds though. Does this mean I am ok or... take this stuff back and look again?


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

Trunk,

The general consensus is that Bio-Spira doesn't work, the reason is, even if the right bacteria were in it, it's been in hot shipping trucks, its sat in warehouses, and it's on a room temperature shelf, it's just not likely that anything viable is in that bottle, if it's unopened I would return it. Just my opinion though, what you do is up to you.

Air bubbles that disappear is what you want, also, where are you from? I can confirm that Ace brand "Janitorial Strength Ammonia", $2.99 per bottle at most stores, is a pure ammonia and water solution, meaning Ammonia and Water, and nothing else. If you have an Ace nearby it's something to think about if you want confidence that it's the right thing.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

John27 said:


> Trunk,
> 
> The general consensus is that Bio-Spira doesn't work, the reason is, even if the right bacteria were in it, it's been in hot shipping trucks, its sat in warehouses, and it's on a room temperature shelf, it's just not likely that anything viable is in that bottle, if it's unopened I would return it. Just my opinion though, what you do is up to you.
> 
> Air bubbles that disappear is what you want, also, where are you from? I can confirm that Ace brand "Janitorial Strength Ammonia", $2.99 per bottle at most stores, is a pure ammonia and water solution, meaning Ammonia and Water, and nothing else. If you have an Ace nearby it's something to think about if you want confidence that it's the right thing.


actually, the general consensus WAS that true bio-spira DID indeed work, but it no longer exists in the form that people were familiar with, it was refrigerated and had a very short shelf life which made it extremely difficult to find.

there were a few products that have been adapted from bio-spira and some have shown some success, but nothing is 100%. the only two that i would even suggest trying, would be Dr. Tim's one and only, and tetra safe start. I have used safe start once with great (instant) success, but you have to be really cautious that it hasn't expired, and if it had been opened it will not work at all.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

Thanks for the warning guys. I bought this from a fish store in Milwaukee. It was refrigerated at that time. I am not sure what happened to it before hand. The guy in the store said that you need to keep it under 80 F at all times or it will go bad. So this stuff is not made anymore? Umm, how old is this stuff? Wonder if it has been in that fridge for along long time...? Still if this stuff doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t work I am back to square one, no bacteria. I may have to bite the bullet and go to a pet store after all. I am going to put some in a couple of 5 gal. buckets and see if I can get a culture going in any of the buckets. Then transfer a successful colony, if I can get one, into the tank.


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

Trunk,

There would really be no way to tell if it was culturing in the 5 gallon bucket, and the issue with Bio Spira is often housing and shipping, I personally have watched a fish store employee take the bottles out of a room temp box and into a fridge (thinking to myself, "what's the point" haha).

Cjacob, I was referring to and assuming he was using what is typically availavble now.

A word of caution using Dr Tims OR safe start, if either of those products at any point hit temperatures in excess of 95F then they will be usesless in an hour, that means if you order Dr Tims and the inside of the unairconditioned shipping truck hits 95+F (likely it will), or the safestart was shipped to the store in an unairconditioned truck, then it most likely won't work.

Cjacob, do you remember if the product was bought in winter or summer? I too have had success with safestart but in the winter, tried it again when I setup a tank in the summer and it was useless, this is just my experience though.

Finally, understand that these bacteria DO exist in the air and will form without seeding or using any products whatsoever, simply adding ammonia WILL start the cycle, albeit slower than seeding from another tank.

-John


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i actually don't remember when i used it, but i didn't use it with fish, i used it to start a fishless cycle, just in case it didn't work.

I know that marineland marketed a product called bio-spira, but i only ever saw pictures and i believe that it no longer exists but has turned into the tetra brand. they may have bio spira written on the saltwater product label. but i think most people think of the old bio-spira when you use the actual name


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i actually don't remember when i used it, but i didn't use it with fish, i used it to start a fishless cycle, just in case it didn't work.

I know that marineland marketed a product called bio-spira, but i only ever saw pictures and i believe that it no longer exists but has turned into the tetra brand. they may have bio spira written on the saltwater product label.

my assumption is that if it's called "bio-spira", it's not, or is way too old to be effective


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

Well just to add to the info:

This bio-spira is made by instant ocean. It claims to be "new" as a new product. It also claims to prevent new tank syndrome. According to the back write upÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s supposed to have a new shelf safe formula with no refrigeration required. Ironically the store dosn't seem to be buying that one...

I am starting to think bio-spira is like Kleenex. ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s just a common name now... I bought the 30 gal. size. They wanted way too much for the 75 gal, which was the largest size they had.

So why can I not tell if the culture in the 5 gal bucket is working? Can't I just test the bucket to see if the ammonia is gone?


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

Trunk,

Heat and aeration are both important to the bacteria, they will grow slower at room temp than at tank temp, additionally they need oxygen, so it will work if you use an airstone, but will take much longer than if you tested it in your filtered, heated tank. If it's just a bucket of still water it wont grow at all.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

trunk said:


> This bio-spira is made by instant ocean. It claims to be "new" as a new product. It also claims to prevent new tank syndrome. According to the back write upÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s supposed to have a new shelf safe formula with no refrigeration required. Ironically the store dosn't seem to be buying that one...


The Instant Ocean product is for Salt Water only. The freshwater product would be Tetra SafeStart. Instant Ocean is a subsidiary of Marineland (was purchased by Marineland several years back). Marineland is owned by United Pet Group, which also owns Tetra.

The inventor of the original BioSpira (and the Biowheel, for that matter) was Marineland Labs, with Dr. Timothy Hovanec as it's "Chief Science Officer". Dr. Tim was the one who performed the research that identified the correct strains of bacteria performing the nitrogen cycle in our tank and headed up the formulation/packaging of BioSpira.

When United Pet Group purchased Marineland, they did not take Marineland Labs. Dr. Tim spun off Marineland Labs and formed Dr Tim's Aquatics, which makes Dr. Tim's One and Only (amongst other products). So the best part of Marineland became Dr. Tim's Aquatics.

So there you have the incestuous relationship within the industry. Of the "bacteria in a bottle" products that will actually work, the common factor in all of them is Dr. Tim.

As a result, if purchasing "bacteria in a bottle" and given a choice between Tetra SafeStart and Dr. Tim's One and Only, I'll go with Dr. Tim's.

As for still finding the original BioSpira on a shelf (or in a refrigerator), it is highly unlikely to remain effective.


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

kmuda,

Would you agree with me though, based on Dr Tims statements that it will not survive prolonged exposure above 95F, that shipping either product right now will render the product ineffective? I would think you would need to make special shipping arrangements to ship it cold or at least room temp in order for it to remain effective, not sure how one would go about that.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

I cannot recall the specifics, but I came across a webcast of a radio show featuring Dr. Tim himself where he was discussing One and Only. This topic was specifically discussed.

While the original BioSpira could not withstand standard shipping under heat or cold, the reformulated One and Only could. Freezing would kill the bacteria but heat (for the duration of time involved in shipping) would not. Not that it will withstand the heat indefinitely (it will not) but the period of time involved in shipping should not affect the product (according to Dr. Tim).

But this is one of the reasons I would place more trust in the Dr. Tim's product I pulled off a shelf (as opposed Tetra). Dr Tim's is a company run by scientist (who are also hobbyist) and are more likely to go the extra step to ensure proper shipping and storage of their product.

If you google Dr. Tim's One and Only AND Tim Hovanec, you can probably still find that webcast.

It also would be a good question to pose in the Dr. Tim's Aquatics forum. They may be able to provide specifics.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

@kmuda: Nice history lesson! Thanks That does clear up the bio-spira name thing up... well at least some  So this stuff that they sold me, even if it was in pristine condition, would not be good for a fresh water tank? What if I am using it just to get the bacteria going?

Thanks.

@john27: I am sure your right about the shipping thing I have been in the back of a transport in August and itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s hotter than oblivion. Well above 90. And this is while its parked at a warehouse! Can't imagine while sitting in a parking lot waiting for a refuel and a bite to eat...

SO if the transporting was not refrigerated for get it! Dead bacteria.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

I just read the former post by Kmuda, so I guess I stand corrected? AMAZED, but corrected.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

If they sold you "Instant Ocean BioSpira", it would not work in a freshwater tank (the bacteria are different). If they sold you "Marineland BioSpira", it is an old discontinued product. Even refrigerated, the bacteria would be dead.

For anyone interested, I believe this is the "webcast" I mentioned earlier but I don't have 38 minutes to listen to it at the moment.

http://www.petfishtalk.com/interviews/d ... d_only.htm

Albeit... I may stand corrected, it may be that One and Only (and SafeStart) would be susceptible to prolonged heat as could occur during improper shipping. Still researching.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

Imagine that.... the answer was in the Dr. Tim's forum all along, in a recent announcement from them.



Dr. Tim's said:


> *Nitrifying bacteria are sensitive to environment conditions* Ã¢â‚¬â€œ even when the bacteria in the bottle are the correct species there are certain environment conditions that harm and even kill the bacteria while they are in the bottle leading to their inability to accelerate the establishment of nitrification. The first condition is being exposed to temperatures outside the range they can survive. If the liquid in the bottle freezes the nitrifying bacteria are killed. It donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t matter the brand Ã¢â‚¬â€œ freezing kills the nitrifying bacteria. High temperatures also can kill or damage nitrifying bacteria. If the bottle is exposed to 110Ã‚Â°F for a day or so the bacteria can be killed. Prolonged exposure to temperatures over 95Ã‚Â°F drastically reduces the shelf life of nitrifying bacteria.
> 
> Unfortunately, the normal way aquarium products are distributed is awful for nitrifying bacteria. The process is that a pallet of product is shipping by common carrier to the distributorÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s (or chain storeÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s) warehouse. The product is not shipped in any special containers to protect against heat or cold and the truck is not temperature controlled. Once at the warehouse the pallet is checked in and stored in warehouse without any temperature control. The product can be in a warehouse in the middle of Texas or Arizona in the summer time or Chicago or update New York in the wintertime Ã¢â‚¬â€œneither are great conditions for nitrifying bacteria.
> 
> ...


And the last paragraph is why I would recommend Dr. Tim's over Tetra SafeStart.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

Well I called the store and explained I needed fresh water. Unfortunately, they will not accept returns of this product. They said they couldnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t guarantee how I took care of the product while out of the store. I see their point but sounds like an excuse... Oh well lesson learned and I will move on.

So! The bacteria I need is in the air? Guess I will start adding ammonia to my tank and begin the lengthy process of cycling that way.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

If it's Marineland BioSpira, the store is at fault for selling an outdated product. There should be a "use by date" on the bottle. If that date is prior to the date of your purchase (with your receipt as evidence), they should honor a refund.

If they sold you a Saltwater product for a Freshwater tank, again, they are at fault.

Point is, I would not take "NO" for an answer, if either of the above is true.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

Good points! I will check the date. But, to be honnest I never told them I had s fresh tank. Maybe they should have asked? I just told them I need bio-spira


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

Ahhh..... then they potentially gave you what you requested (if it's the Instant Ocean product). If that's the case, it's best your honest and I applaud you for being that way. Too much of that is missing in our society today.

Although.... a good store clerk would have sought clarification. Never know, if you ask the right questions, might find something else to sell, or at least prevent an unhappy customer.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

Ok the sell by date is 02/2010 - So they shouldn't have sold it to me.

On the receipt it says No refunds all sales final. Does that mater if the sell passed the sell by date?


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

I would take it back and raise a fit. Even if it's the wrong product and they will not give you a refund, force them to give you a product with a valid sale date. You may be able to exchange it for store credit.

At least that is what I would do, otherwise the store will never learn.


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

To quote Dr Tim himself, "If the bottle is exposed to 110Ã‚Â°F for a day or so the bacteria can be killed. Prolonged exposure to temperatures over 95Ã‚Â°F drastically reduces the shelf life of nitrifying bacteria. "

So what I take from that is 24 hours above 110F will kill the bacteria, above 95F will reduce the shelf life, possibly also reducing the speed at which it works.

A recent study done by the San Fransisco state university determined that on an 87 degree day in San Fransisco, measure at 9:30 AM in the morning (87F outside temperature) the inside of a car reached 118F, now a metal shipping truck or otherwise will likely get even hotter, and this 2 to 3 days of exposure while it's on the shipping containers and trucks leave pretty low odds of survival.

You may call the shipping courier Dr Tims uses and ask them if the trucks are air conditioned, or if they offer any cooled or refrigerated shipments, Dr Tims also says that the only way to EXTEND the shelf life beyond the estimated 1 year is refrigeration, so by that I assume colder than room temperatures wont harm it.

Also, as far as using a smaller quantity, I recently asked Dr Tim the same question, his response was that the bottle labeled for that size of aquarium will INSTANTLY cycle the tank, meaning pour it in then drop the fish in, a bottle labeled for less than that size will greatly speed up the cycle, but it may still take time (but if it contains half of the necessary bacteria, then it only needs to make one division to be ready for fish!)

I think I am going to start a Topic on Dr Tims section of this site to get his take on the shipping issue, maybe it's not an issue at all, he's really the one to ask about it!

-John


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

John27 said:


> I think I am going to start a Topic on Dr Tims section of this site to get his take on the shipping issue, maybe it's not an issue at all, he's really the one to ask about it!
> 
> -John


I think that would be a good idea, although they partially answer the question in the same post from your quote (last paragraph) where they state:



> At DrTimÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s we pay close attention to the weather and ship to our customers at every level (distributors, stores, hobbyists, etc.) in Styrofoam boxes with gel packs or heat packs (depending on the time of year).


So the question to ask of your LFS is..... did they get it straight from Dr. Tim's or from a PetCo (or substitute any chain store) central warehouse. Because the one area where Dr. Tim's looses control is at the "distributor".

The key is that the product must be "Treated the same way you would a fish" and fish somehow wind up in the stores alive. As long as similar precautions are made, the product should be viable.


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

Kmuda,

I missed that, good catch, but in that case one could guarantee success if they order it directly from Dr Tims then, although I wonder how long the gel packs last? I guess Dr Tims will answer that, because personally, if you add the cost of the product already, plus the cost of overnighting it if that were necessary, it might not be worth it to instant cycle.

-John


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

John27 said:


> if you add the cost of the product already, plus the cost of overnighting it if that were necessary, it might not be worth it to instant cycle.
> 
> -John


That.... is the problem. 

I read your post in the Dr. Tim's forum. I look forward to their response.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

@kmuda: Just got done with the audio clip. Great stuff thanks for the info and the research.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

Since we are on the subject of bacteriaÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ I used to have a salt tank and there was a bag of gravel in the sump. I was told it was there to promote bacteria growth. Question is now, do I need anew bag of gravel to put in my fresh water sump.


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

Well trunk,

Whats your filtration setup? The bacteria will live in substrate (sand/gravel), on a bio wheel, on biological media such as fluval biomax (If it's a Fluval or Hagen Aquaclear filter it's got it included), Eheim Substrat pro just to name a few, additionally they live on coarse filter sponges.

On that subject, any and all of the above mentioned items should only be cleaned with TANK WATER, otherwise you will destroy the bacterial colony, and even then it should be cleaned in sections, not all, to ensure your bacteria stays safe.

However bio-balls are intended for wet/dry systems, like a sump, I would not recommend bio-balls in a constantly submerged portion of your filtration, I would recommend anything else above for constantly submerged media.

If your filter has no biological media I recommend fluval biomax, I've always had good luck with it and it's cheap and readily available, it also seems to stay clean.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

All excellent questions, sorry I didn't mention them before.

Substrate sand.

Filtration:






You can see the gravel sack in the 5-gal at start of clip. I believe the wet/dry is using bio-balls.
The pump is an Ehiem.

I tend to keep the water in my sump below the bio-ball line. I am not even sure they work otherwise.


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

Your all set man, you have basically as good of biological filtration as can be from the looks of it, so now you have two options.

1: add ammonia and remove the existing fish, in about 30 days it'll be ready

2: Pending what Dr Tims says on the topic I started, purchase One and Only nitrifying bacteria in an appropriate size for your tank (or a smaller size, and then add ammonia and it should be ready in a week or two) then add fish, if you use the one for the right size tank, then you can add the fish same-day.

-John


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

Thanks John,

Glad to hear it! This system worked great for my salt tank. That is until I had to go out of town on work for three weeks. Left it the hands of a friend and when I got back the sump pump was burnt out and all the fish were dead. Gerrrr....

Anyway so that bag with the gravel used to set in the right side of the sump (the inflow). Do I need a replacement for this bag or can I just clean it? Or do I even need it? It was used in a salt tank so I am not sure that it is safe for this new tank.

Thanks

p.s. I started to add the ammonia. Figured might as well get started on the 30 day approach till I know whatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s up with Dr. TimÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s brewÃ¢â‚¬Â¦


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

Trunk,

That gravel may have been something intended to buffer the water, either way it's not necessary, I'd leave it out.

-John


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

actually, i think the date is the manufacture date. not the expiration date. you have to double check though.

in the pet store's defense, most normal employees that are just there for work, will not know the old bio-spira, therefore not know that there was a freshwater product under that label, and even if they did know of the old stuff, it's been gone for so long, they may just assume you knew what you wanted.

also, very few products in the pet store have expiration dates, so they are not trained to check dates and rotate product like a grocery store employee would. it's no excuse for the pet store, but knowing this, we should always check dates before buying anything, though i know you didn't know about this before this thread, just a good practice for the future


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

Well I got a very fast response from Dr Tims, according to him, "3 day or sooner" shipping will likely be successful, so to me that means you need to have recieved it by the third day. He also says they watch the weather conditions and pack accordingly, so then, you can have it ready instantly if you get the right size bottle, or get it ready much quicker, but not instant with too small a bottle, or wait 30 days or so the choice is yours. However, Dr Tim has made me confident that if you ship _directly from him_ the product will be safe, however if you purchase from a pet store the potential is that it was shipped in too long of a period, or stored in a hot warehouse too long, and Dr Tim confirmed that two days in this kind of heat and "The bacteria will be toast".

Also, one tip (whether you do the add and wait method OR use Dr Tims product), Dr Tim said the bacteria grow best at around 91F, so crank that heater up while your cycling, it should cut down on your time!

Let us know how it works, and keep the pictures coming!

-John


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

@john27: Thanks for the research! Sounds good, I will probably buy some from Tim. I am a fairly patient person... but 30 days is a long time.

@cjacob316: Yah I am really torn about the return thing. I am to blame for not asking them the right questions. Still they should not sell past the manufacturers sell by date. The date on the bottom of the bottle has the words "SELL BY" above it. If it was a manufactured date it should say something like "MADE ON". Still I think an exchange for the same product (with a valid sell by) or a store credit would be good business practice. I will pitch a $17 (90%) store credit and see what the say. If they don't go for it then that was probably my last shopping experience there. I may or may not post a review on Google.

Well thanks for all the help people! This has been a great thread. One last thing though... Anyone have an opinion on whether I need to put that gravel bag or a replacement gravel bag in the inflow of my sump again? See the video a few post back about the filtration system.

Thanks all!


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

Trunk,

You don't need the gravel, it may include a buffer which, if your water parameters are good could screw things up. Your good on biological filtration.

Also, I work retail, selling an expired product is unacceptable, a cash 100% refund is what you should expect, I wouldn't even offer the $17 store credit, I'd ask for cash, see what heppens.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

@John27: Cool thanks. I didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t really want to use that bag anyway. 

I just called the store this morning. The clerk that sold it to me answered. After explaining the bottle was expired he was very apologetic. He was surprised since they just got a shipment in. After checking he said all the other bottles were still good. He told me that it would probably still be ok but if I wanted to come down for an exchange he would see no problem with that. So the store is being a good sport about this. Now my issue is I really don't need the salt-water product. I will go down to exchange it and explain the situation. They may just give me a credit. If not I will just take the exchange; after all I paid for it right?

Thanks again


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

well it makes it easier when it says sell by, i'd say return it because it really is their responsibility to sell "good" product

if shouldn't matter how you handled it because it should have been in the trash 6 months ago


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

Just to update on the bio-spira I bought...

So I stopped at the store during lunch. The guy was really embarrassed. You could tell he was sincere. He showed me some other bottles and they were good. Accidents happen and he was more than willing to exchange. No harm done. I told him that I really needed fresh water. Now this is where I question. He told me that really their was no difference between the fresh and the salt and that is why he only carries the salt type. I told him about Dr.Tim and the conversations on this forum. Didn't seem to phase his opinion though. BUT! No worries, I ask him for a credit and just pick up an equivalent dollar amount from the store. He was eager to do so and actually gave me more than the dollar amount. So, IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m a happy customer.

If anyone lives in the S. Milwaukee area and wants a recommendation for a fish store PM me and I will pass the name of this store on to you.


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## Rick_Lindsey (Aug 26, 2002)

Just a thought on the bag of gravel... It may have been seeding media (either added to the sump to seed it in the first place, or there to collect some bacteria to seed another filter).

-Rick (the armchair aquarist)


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

I bet you're right Rick, I guess I will keep the bag in a dry place for a while. I imagine that will kill of any of the old saltwater bacteria. Then when I need to seed the 20 gal, I plan to house the holding mothers in it, I will have something...


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

trunk said:


> I told him that I really needed fresh water. Now this is where I question. He told me that really their was no difference between the fresh and the salt and that is why he only carries the salt type.


It's good they stepped up to the plate, but they are flat out wrong about the Saltwater working in a freshwater tank. They are different species of bacteria.

As an example, you cannot take media from a saltwater tank to cycle a freshwater tank, or visa-versa.

And it's the reason why both Tetra and Dr. Tim's manufacture a freshwater product AND a salt water product.

Regardless, I'm glad things worked out.


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

Common sense tells me there's a difference, if a manufacturer was confident their product worked in both scenarios, then wouldn't it make more sense for them to market it as such? Would you ever see Valvoline sell "Ford Engine oil" just assuming it's customers would know it also works in GM, Chrysler and import products? It seems counter intuitive to specify if the product was universal.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

Depends if they calculated how many people run both fresh and salt tanks at the same time. Double your sales for these people. Just a thought, not saying thatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s what they are doing. It would seem logical to me that species of bacteria in salt v.s. fresh would be biologically different.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

I am a little perplexed...

I have added two caps of ammonia for two days and my ppm is still at 1. Shouldn't it go up? Or at least be more than that? I calculated the cap to be 49.8 ML so thatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s like 100 ML of ammonia to 340687.1 ML of water. Isn't that more than 1-2 PPM?

I am just starting to wonder if that sand I got from lake Michigan had bacteria in itÃ¢â‚¬Â¦


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

oops my calculations are a bit off... 4.98 ML not 49.8

so, 8 ML off ammonia in 340687.1 ML of water. So I think thats like 23 PPM?? umm am I failing chem 101 here? :?


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## Rick_Lindsey (Aug 26, 2002)

What's the concentration of your ammonia solution though? Probably 10% or less.

-Rick (The armchair aquarist, who hasn't done the math)


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

Excellent question Rick! I think you just hit the nail on the head. I'm sure that's what's missing in my formula. Unfortunately, the Ammonia doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t have the concentration listed. Guess I can do a test by adding a known amount of water and a known amount of the ammonia and do some algebraic magic. I figure that if I can get the known amount of water up to the PPM I need, I can then scale it up to the tank size.

Thanks


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## Rick_Lindsey (Aug 26, 2002)

trunk said:


> Guess I can do a test by adding a known amount of water and a known amount of the ammonia and do some algebraic magic.


Or you could just keep adding till the test kit reads where you want . If you're at 1ppm now with 4 caps of ammonia... how about add 4 more caps, wait a few hours, and test?

-Rick (the armchair aquarist, who prefers to keep things simple, especially when precision is not required)


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

Well the easy way to see if you've somehow jumpstarted the cycle is tet for nitrates! The presence of nitrates (being higher than that out of your tap if there is any of your tap) is typically an indicator that you are on the last leg of the cycle, so your ammonia could be converting to nitrates, because the bacteria is established, however it will need to divide a couple more times to be fish ready (if you are still getting a reading).

Also, most Janitorial/professional cleaning ammonia solutions are 10% ammonia I use Ace brand "Janitorial Strength" ammonia which is 10%, and two capfuls gave me just over 5ppm.

Rick is right though, precision is not necessary, you just want enough to simulate the biload of a stocked tank, so 5ppm or so, the only disadvantage of having a little more than that would be an increase in time to cycle (but it'll be a larger bacteria colony so all the better!)

-John


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## DrTim's (Jun 8, 2010)

Hi All

I hope you don't mind if I jump in here about using ammonia and how to get a reading that sort of matches your expectations. You're right in that you don't have to be all that precise just don't let the ammonia get over 5 ppm.

But if you want to get more precise there are two problems:

1) What are the units of measurement? The units can be ammonia (NH3), ammonium (NH4+) or nitrogen (N). The solution you have and the test kit you are using may not be in the same units (Like pounds versus kilos or inches versus millimeters and in extreme cases it can matter like when the probe that was suppose to land on Mars crashed because the engineers mixed up english units with metric units  )

2) What does the solution concentration really mean? When a company says 10% ammonia they may mean 10% of the solution is ammonium chloride or maybe ammonium hydroxide or ammonia or ammonium. If they mean the chemical compound then the actual ammonia added is even less because neither chemical is 100% ammonia.

In any case, I won't go into a full chemistry lesson (unless you want me to!) just remember that it is better to start slow (a lower concentration) and as someone said measure the nitrate to make sure the cycle is working and slow add more and more of whatever solution you are adding.

Cheers

DrTim


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

This particular brand of Ammonia uses Ammonium Hydroxide as its active agent. It doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t go as far as tell you what the concentration is but it sounds like the going standard is 10%. At this point I am using the add more, test and see approach. K.I.S.S. right?

Anyways, I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t have a NO2 test. When I bought my salt tank (already stocked and active) I went to a pet store and they said I really didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t need one. But, sounds like I need to know when the NO2 peeks in the cycle process. Back to the pet store J Ã¢â‚¬Â¦

I do have a NO3 test, IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve used this API brand for some time, that I tested the tap and tank water with. The tap water is at 0 PPM and the tank is at 5 PPM. So, is that enough of a difference to suggest ammonia conversion?


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## DrTim's (Jun 8, 2010)

If the nitrate test shows an increase over time than you can assume the process is working. But generally the nitrite concentration gets higher than the ammonia concentration and takes longer to cycle. This is because the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria grow much slower than the ammonia-oxidizing bacteria. For these reasons, I consider nitrite to be more dangerous than ammonia during cycling.

A common mistake is to assume since ammonia is zero and nitrate in increasing all is fine. Many people, such as yourself, do not have a nitrite test kit - probably because the store told them only about ammonia. So they don't measure nitrite but most fish die between days 12 and 20 after setting up a new tank and at time ammonia is probably zero but nitrite is off the scale.

Also the concentration of ammonia in ammonium hydroxide (NH4OH) decreases over time since the ammonia off-gases. At the high pH of NH4OH the ammonia is in the gaseous form (which is why you can smell the ammonia) and it bleeds off to the atmosphere. Again not a problem when you are not trying to be precise but an interesting fact nonetheless.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

WeÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ll all should be well. I ordered a 4 oz bottle of "one and only" and its in the mail. Shipped today.

I also got the RoundyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s material report for their ammonia. The only additive is this "Cloudy" ammonia additive. The letter that came with it assured me that there are no perfumes. The Chemical family for this "cloudy" stuff is "Aqueous polymer dispersion" and the official product name is "Acramin Binder Ban-c". No I do NOT pretend to know what that means but was wondering if anyone around here does. Is this stuff bad for fish?

Hope it is ok because itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s already in my tank. If this is bad what do I need to do to get the tank ready for my Dr. TÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s 1-n-only soup?

Additional info... I know that the 4 oz is too small for this 90 gal but like others have suggested by adding ammonia it should speed up the cycle.

Thanks


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

Trunk,

Sounds great. Remember to continue to add the same amount of ammonia every day until one hour after adding ammonia you have no ammonia/nitrite readings, at that point your ready but DONT STOP adding ammonia until the day you add fish! Otherwise the bacteria you've built up will die off, even if not completely they could shrink to the point where they can't handle the bioiload your introducing. Also, whenever you stock your fish the bacteria will grow/die to match that load, therefore if you add 10 juvenile fish, two weeks from then I personally wouldn't add more than 5 juvies, otherwise you could face an ammonia spike. For that reason (as well as agression, etc.) I reccomend completely stocking your tank on day one.

-John


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

@John: Thanks! Yah I plan to get all the fish on day one. So... I hope that I am using enough ammonia for the load. Right now my ammonia appears to be holding at 4 ppm. I test before I add the dayÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s ammonia.


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

Sounds good, once you get a test result of Ammonia: 0, Nitrite: 0 Nitrate: a number above 0 your cycled, do a big water change and start acclimating!


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

I added 4oz of Dr. Tim's to my tank Friday. I have a 90 gal tank so i realize it won't be instantaneous like the bottle says. How much longer will a 90 gal take to cycle than a 60 gal tank with a 4oz bottle?

Before I added the Dr. T's to my tank it was rid of the ammonia in about an hour so, more like two. So I thought now the ammonia nitrification might be set but it still takes an hour to get to 1ppm and a pit longer to get to 0. My NO2 is still way too high looks to be about 5ppm. I havenÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t bothered testing the NO3 yet. My Ph is about 8.

So like the kid in the back of the car.. are we there yet?


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

Trunk,

Start testing for Nitrate, Dr Tims is the complete bacteria package, so in other words, it's already creating nitrates, in a few days your nitrites should drop to 0, and your ammonia will be converted straight to nitrates, without any nitrite reading.

As far as "are we there yet", almost! Once your getting only nitrates, and you can add the amount of ammonia that would normally get you 2-4ppm ammonia and it is very quickly converted into nitrates (someone want to share their opinion on exactly how long?), your ready to stock.

-John


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

Well, if anyone was curious about the answer to the 4oz Dr. Tim's in a 90 gal. tank: 12 days.
That is the time it took to get my N02 down to acceptable level in an hours time.

Unfortunately by the time my tank was cycled the dealer I was going to buy my fish from was out of stock for Dems and multis. So I had to wait, because I didn't want to pay shipping twice and I wanted to add them all at the same time. Well best laid plans lie in waste. As you will see belowÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

I got my fish today. The Dems, Electric Yellows and Multis look great. But... 7 out of the 10 aceis that they sent me were DOA. The dealer has given me a credit for the 8 aceis that I paid for (thatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s right they through in a couple freebies). This is good because when I got home from work one of the three survivors was dead and another looks like he is on his way out. He keeps dropping to the bottom of the tank and turning on his back belly up. He tries to get back up to the top of the tank but soon enough he is down again. I am a little worried that something was wrong with the all the aceis (sickness???). I imagine though, traveling with all the dead fish was really hard on them so if any survive I guess itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s just a bonus now. Should I move both aceis to another tank? I would have to get another tank.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

hmm looks like the Multis are not opposed to hitting a fish while he is down. They keep "nibbling" on the "sick" acei. He is still breathing but that doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t seem to bother the ethics of the multis :?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Should I move both aceis to another tank? I would have to get another tank.


I'd euthanize him. Unlikely he'll recover. No point in leaving him there to die and add to the ammonia load.



> That is the time it took to get my N02 down to acceptable level in an hours time.


I kept seeing this idea of ammonia and nitrite needing to be 0 within an hour of adding ammonia running through this thread. Not sure where that ever came from, but not true. Instead, if you get 0's from ammonia/nitrite after 24 hours, you're good to go.

Also sounds like you were being encouraged to push a lot of ammonia. 2ppm every other day is fine. All that ammonia probably just ended up extending your cycling time.



> so i realize it won't be instantaneous like the bottle says


Does it really claim that, instantaneous? Meaning no ammonia or nitrite spikes at all? Very, very few have ever experienced that. Most get spikes for a while. Cycling time is shortened, but rarely 'instantaneous'. That's why fishless is always a good way to go even when seeding with bacteria in a bottle or used filter media or whatever. And just as an aside, going forward you can get the same results by using filter media from an established tank. Now that you have one going, you shouldn't need to spend the $$ on the bottled products when cycling tanks.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

Euthanasia has proved to be unnecessary, time of death 10:15 CST.

One acei remains. He seems fine he is chasing dems around the tank.


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

4 ounces of Dr Tims isn't enough for instantaneous cycling, but I used 8 ounces in my 75 and did indeed experience instant cycling. I had no ammonia or nitrite spikes for a solid week (after that my tank leaked so that's a different story, but it's hard to beat adding it, adding ammonia constantly every day, and my nitrates piling on and no ammonia or nitrite ever recorded before the leak.)

-John


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

Yah I am pretty happy with the stuff. They do say that if you add the amount suggested for your tank you can pick up the fish the same day.

I can believe that...

On an aside, does anyone think I should ask for free shipping to repace these aceis?


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

trunk said:


> Yah I am pretty happy with the stuff. They do say that if you add the amount suggested for your tank you can pick up the fish the same day.
> 
> I can believe that...
> 
> On an aside, does anyone think I should ask for free shipping to repace these aceis?


I suppose it wouldn't hurt to ask. See how important your repeat business is to them! Good luck.

-John


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

I just went to the retail reviews and saw they are one of our site sponsors. They get good reviews for the most part and I am actually happy with the other fish.


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## DrTim's (Jun 8, 2010)

I have never heard that the ammonia and nitrite need to be gone in one hour for a tank to be consider cycled. How fast they disappear to a certain extent depends on how fast you add the ammonia either as a one time shot or slowly over time. Ammonia excretion in fish is continuous. The peak excretion is about 2 hours after feeding (give or take).

Let me give an example. Say you feed your fish 10 grams of food and this will produce 3 grams of ammonia (this is just an an example). That rate is over a 24 hour period of time. I did my master's thesis on ammonia excretion in striped bass based on water temperature and daily feeding rate and all the values in the literature are rates of ammonia excretion over a 24 hour period of time. But the rate over the 24 hours is not uniform. It peaks like I said about 2 to 3 hours after feeding and slows down but is still measurable at 24 hours.

What this means is that the bacteria do not experience a pulse of 3 grams of ammonia in one burst (like if you just dumped 3 grams of ammonia into the water). Thus you don't need as big a bacterial biomass to handle 3 grams over 24 hours compared to handling 3 grams in 1 hour - make sense?

The best way to cycle a tank is to add a little ammonia several times a day so it never gets too high and keeps the bacteria growing. Too much ammonia will inhibit them or produce too much nitrite which is also bad. This is how we feed the bacteria we grow - with dosing pumps instead of just dumping the ammonia into the culture tanks.

I would say your tank is very well cycled and sorry to read about the shipping problems. I do think you should ask for free shipping. To me the fish should get to your door alive.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> They do say that if you add the amount suggested for your tank you can pick up the fish the same day.


But, is that a good practice? IMHO it's better to let the tank sit empty for a few days or more while you make sure you get the results you're hoping for by dosing ammonia. In that time you can make sure other parameters are in line and equipment is all working properly.

I was very glad to see Dr. Tim's offering ammonia and suggesting fishless cylcing now. They've had a manufacturer in the UK that's been doing that for a while and it's good to see it here now too. It'd be nice to see the shops start recommending fishless cylcing instead of continuing to send folks home with fish same day. Even with bacteria in a bottle that works well, I still don't like the practice. Just me. I just don't think we should be searching for a product that allows us to set up a tank and add fish that day or even next day. Practicing a bit of patience from the start will help down the road.

Just my .02



DrTim's said:


> The best way to cycle a tank is to add a little ammonia several times a day so it never gets too high and keeps the bacteria growing. Too much ammonia will inhibit them or produce too much nitrite which is also bad. This is how we feed the bacteria we grow - with dosing pumps instead of just dumping the ammonia into the culture tanks.


I've at times considered testing this to see if a dosing pump method would reduce cycling times, all other things being equal. Seems though that even if dosing, you can build quite a bit of ammonia in the early days before bacteria are established. Moreso than if just adding the one dose because you add it then leave it alone until it drops. Myabe a hybrid solution would be best where an initial dose is added, then the dosing pump is brought into play once ammonia drops to 0.

I've gone to recommending only using 1-2ppm ammonia and only adding it every 2-3 days once nitrite peaks to keep those levels somewhat in check. I've been involved in more than one thread where fish were ordered, but nitrites hadn't dropped yet. Dropping ammonia additions to less than 1ppm every other day while doing daily water changes has been the solution to quickly finishing up a cycle, in those cases. Seems to agree with what you've been posting here at CF.


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

prov356,

If your cautious, you can add Dr Tims and ammonia, just to be safe. That's what I did, it's not like it "won't work".

-John


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> If your cautious, you can add Dr Tims and ammonia, just to be safe. That's what I did, it's not like it "won't work".


That's what I've been suggesting for years here. I'm all for being cautious, particulary when fully stocking with expensive fish. :thumb: No good reason not to. Impatience is the only reason I can think of that anyone wouldn't.


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## DrTim's (Jun 8, 2010)

prov356

It is always best to set-up the system and make sure everything it running right, then start cycling and get that going and then add fish (and of course add a little DrTims!) and never add fish the same day as you set the tank up but as you said patience. Unfortunately, there is a big gap between what's best and reality. Most calls I get are from people who set-up the tank and the next day filled it with fish and now their ammonia and/or nitrite are outta control.

As to what is the fastest way to cycle - there was a study done years ago, I think by Dr. Ron Malone at LSU and his results showed that the quickest way was to actually start by adding nitrite! and get the NOB going, then start adding ammonia. This makes sense because the NOB are the slowest to establish and are inhibited by high nitrite concentrations. But overall my experience is that many small additions of ammonia will result in a faster cycle then just adding a lot of ammonia once a day.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Unfortunately, there is a big gap between what's best and reality. Most calls I get are from people who set-up the tank and the next day filled it with fish and now their ammonia and/or nitrite are outta control.


You're absolutely right. I see it here all the time also. Hopefully by continuing to encourage the best way, it'll be adopted more and more. And that's what I do. If asking before the setup, I encourage what I believe to be the best practice. If dealing with a toxic levels, then the recommended methods and solutions change. I do understand that more often than not, best practice isn't what happens. Hopefully that can change over time. I've seen what I believe to be a growth in understanding about cycling tanks here at CF over the last few years. Nothing I can quantify, of course, but I do believe there's been growth. But, there's still a lot of myth and misunderstanding also. I appreciate your posts where you dispel some of those myths.



> As to what is the fastest way to cycle - there was a study done years ago, I think by Dr. Ron Malone at LSU and his results showed that the quickest way was to actually start by adding nitrite! and get the NOB going, then start adding ammonia. This makes sense because the NOB are the slowest to establish and are inhibited by high nitrite concentrations.


I had read that. Only problem is not real practical for most aquarists. We have trouble just finding the right ammonia.


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## John27 (Jun 6, 2010)

prov356 said:


> > If your cautious, you can add Dr Tims and ammonia, just to be safe. That's what I did, it's not like it "won't work".
> 
> 
> That's what I've been suggesting for years here. I'm all for being cautious, particulary when fully stocking with expensive fish. :thumb: No good reason not to. Impatience is the only reason I can think of that anyone wouldn't.


Although if your a patient person, your not really part of the Dr. Tims One and Only market :lol:


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Although if your a patient person, your not really part of the Dr. Tims One and Only market


Not true really. I've been giving this some thought and I think there should be a very wide market for a product like this. Some including myself keep meds on hand for unexpected illnesses. I think a bottle of Dr Tim's should probably be part of that arsenal. Not to combat illness, of course, but the unexpected decline of the biofilter.

Also, I really wish the local shops would adopt the practice of teaching new keepers of fish the fishless cycling method and show them how they can speed it up by sending them home with Dr Tim's and a bottle of the ammonia that he offers. I'd like to see every first time tank started up this way. The only possible inhibitor I see is the cost. Many start out small and want to keep costs down. Not sure how to get around that. Unfortunately, too often they get around it by subjecting fish to massive amounts of ammonia/nitrite. And then they rely of poor advice from the shop to resolve it. Or they end up here seeking advice. Same scenario plays out all the time.

I think the market is very wide. I'd just like to see, as I'm sure Dr. Tim would, the product used proactively instead of reactively.

Last thought, I think the fish keeping industry needs more products put out by people like Dr Tim's and Pablo Tepoot (maker of NLS) who are hobbyists themselves. They use science to try to offer something that makes things better for all of us, and then come forward in forums like this to answer questions and offer help. I applaud them. =D> I don't know of any others out there doing that. Not on a large scale.


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## DrTim's (Jun 8, 2010)

I hear a lot that it cost too much to buy a bottle of bugs or store owners will tell me that it's too much to try and get another $10 to $15 from someone who just bought a new aquarium. I realize times are tight but it also a fact that there is going to be an ammonia/nitrite spike and that will lead to problems for the aquarium owner - they will have to change water (costly for saltwater) they may have dead fish (costly for all), they may (ok will) be upset or worse to have to go through all the trouble they are going to face. So is $10 to $15 really too much (yes, I know I sell the bacteria) but back away from that for a second. If a new dog or cat owner was told their new pet had a 50:50 chance of making it or that that owner would have one month of **** would so many people own a dog or cat? Or would they gladly pay a small amount to eliminate that problem? I think we all know the answer. The biggest problem we have to that when a new aquarium owner is the most excited and most into the tank there a good chance of disappointment all because of $10? It makes no sense to me. I have a few stores that tell me they basically don't let people out the door without a 2 oz bottle of my bugs and they become repeat customers who buy more fish, more food, more everything and some even graduate to a bigger tank. That $10 is an investment not an expense in my opinion. Ok, I will get off the soap box!

You know most of the companies that many feel are leaders in the industry (Marineland, Aquarium Systems, Tetra, and others ) were started by hobbyists with a better idea. Unfortunately, they are now owned by the corporate world that puts money first. But there are a few of us trying to remedy that! We're small, nimble and care about fish, the customer and the products. Focus on those and your company will survive, in my opinion. Thanks for the nice words.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

DrTim's said:


> You know most of the companies that many feel are leaders in the industry (Marineland, Aquarium Systems, Tetra, and others ) were started by hobbyists with a better idea. Unfortunately, they are now owned by the corporate world that puts money first. But there are a few of us trying to remedy that! We're small, nimble and care about fish, the customer and the products. Focus on those and your company will survive, in my opinion. Thanks for the nice words.


Sorry for digging up an old thread, I've been occupied elsewhere and have fallen behind on my Cichlid-Forum participation..... but I just had to state that you could not be more correct, and Kudo's for being on the other end of that equation.

The larger the companies get, the more problems they have and the less the quality of their products. Your former company is a prime example of this, albeit their customer service remains excellent (for the moment anyway.... at least until some of the suits decide it should be outsourced as a cost saving measure.)


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