# using kusuri wormer plus with sterazin



## tompillen (May 15, 2010)

hi, my parrot fish is really not well. he is scratching and flicking on his filter/plant pot and has white patches all over him(not fungus jus the colour has gone). he keeps retiring to the same place in the tank. i am treating with sterazin (1 dose, day 2) but he is showing no sign of improvement. i have some kusuri wormer plus that has flubendazole in it which the manufacturers claim you can mix with other treatments but i want some advice before i do this. if i do nothing he will die (in my opinion) but i dont want to make him more uncomfortable. water parameters are all perfect and he has not eaten anything for 5 days now. i have today noticed loads of tiny worms in his tank and suspended in the water but there is no movement to them they all look dead. they are about 2mm long and white. my tank has also been dosed with interpet aqua tonic salt at the dosage reccomended on the box but he is STILL scratching himself. advice needed urgently pleaser i am running out of time. thanks


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## tompillen (May 15, 2010)

i have the ingredients for the sterazin, it contains: malachite green 0.08%w/w, formaldehyde 0.2%w/w, piperazine citrate 0.34%w/w and acriflavine hydrochloride 0.055%w/w.

i want to mix this with the wormer plus, 50mg/g flubendazole, 0.01% azadiratchin.

is this safe?

quick response needed please


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## tompillen (May 15, 2010)

triscuit, further to our pm i have not added any new fish to the tank ever! he is on his own and has been for years now. i had 2 to start with but sperated them after about 2 years due to aggression. i lost one, retard (due to her mouth being retarded!!!) this year and it was devestating. this is is why im so depserate to make this one, bully, better. i can not think of anything that was unusual that could have caused the illness. he just stopped eating for 2 days, eat again but only 4 pellets and now hasnt eaten for a week again. he always had a scratch every now and then but the scratching incresed and got worse after i dosed with octozin (dimetradole). i then found red spots around his eyes after the 1st does and black marks on his lips which i put down to him scratching excessively. these red spots dissapeared after a day or 2 but the black marks remain still and he is still scratching. i put my carbon back in and ran without meds for 48 hours and dosed with sterazin for what i think is flukes but cant see anything on him but he is definitely scratching really bad. 24 hours after the sterazin and i see loads of tiny white worms but there all dead. he is still scratching away and is now swimming around but returning to the same place, behind his pot facing the back of the tank. no fish added, no stressful incidents etc. just stopped eating. soooooooo frustrating. PLEASE HELP!


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

Hi,

I'm going to jump in not knowing all of what you've covered in your pms. 
From what I read here the first thing I would do is a partial water change of 30% using a good quality dechlorinator. I would also give the gravel a good siphoning. Check the filter media to make sure there is no build up and then after waiting 3-4 hours do another partial water change of 30%

You mentioned there being tons of dead worms in the tank. More than likely these are, (were) either planaria or nematodes. Both are harmless to your fish but their presence indicates that you've been over-feeding and/or not doing frequent enough water changes. If you've got substrate that is more than 3 inches deep remove enough to bring it down to 2-3 inches but don't do that until you've done the two water changes.

I know you said the water parameters checked out okay but presence of these worms makes me suspicious that something is off. Test kits are not always accurate.

Robin


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Thanks Robin-

That's exactly what I said in a PM, but the gravel in this tank is apparently very shallow and is vacuumed regularly. Is it possible that the meds helped get these worms out of the fish? I haven't seen anything like that, but the tank maintenance sounds sufficient.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

I don't think the dead worms he's seeing came out of his fish. As you already know, the parasites/flagellates that are thought to be responsible for bloat are not visible with the naked eye. You can see Anchor worm and camallanus worms but I've never heard of anyone seeing them in any numbers once they are dead--or alive for that matter.

I think the meds killed the planaria/nematodes that were living in the tank and that's what he's seeing. The tank maintenance may be sufficient as you say but I would still be suspicious that there wasn't some problem with maintenance/care if these worms were present in such numbers.

Robin

In the case of anchor and camallanus worms: anchor worms appear to grow out of a pimple/bump on the fish. Camallanus worms are seen protruding from the fish's anus and will retreat back inside when disturbed.


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## tompillen (May 15, 2010)

right, my gravel is absolutely minimum due to having crustacean parasites years ago, i always keep it minimal, barely enough to cover the bottom of the tank. i change 6 x 10ltr buckets EVERY sunday without fail (25% of my 240ltr tank) and all 60ltrs are removed using a powerful gravel cleaner. these worms were definitely NOT in my gravel i am 100% sure of this. i use tetra aquasafe dechlorinator (have done for several years). my fish has no visible worms or parasites - i have spent hours and hours looking at him over the last week. nothing upset him or was changed from my normal maintenence which is why i can not understand it. he just stopped eating, eat 4 pellets 2 days later and stopped eating again and started scratching a few days later. my filters are clean and regularly mucked out. this is the reason i have 2 filters so i can do 1 at a time and not mess with the water quality. the testing kit i use is by api and its the liquid type - this is the most accurate testing kit i have found so i trust the results.

i dont want to find out why it happened i just want to know what to do to get it sorted as quickly and stress free as possible.

as i said, he just stopped eating, ate again 2 days later, stopped eating again and now continually flicks and scratches against the filter and plant pot. i have not seen him go to the toilet but i have noticed a couple of bits of poo in the tank with all i can describe as big white lumps mixed with the normall brown colour poo that comes from his pellets, but this is the only poo i have seen in a week.

i have dosed twice now with waterlife sterazin (ingredients in above post) but he is still scratching and sulking back to behind his pot facing the back of the tank. he has no trouble keeping upright and showing no signs of swelling/thinning of his stomach so im ruling out bloat.

he ate a pellet today but it had been in the tank a little while so was soft and most of it came out his gills. i put a couple more in but he completely ignored them.

i will keep you updated but in the meantime, is it safe to do a small waterchange and dose with sterazin every other day until the scratching improves? *** read that sterazin is only active for 24 hours in water???


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

> i dont want to find out why it happened i just want to know what to do to get it sorted as quickly and stress free as possible.


I don't blame you on that! But unfortunately when diagnosing fish, especially over the internet where it's impossible to look at anything under a microscope, finding out what led up to the fish's ailment has a lot to do with figuring out what exactly is wrong and then we can make a better estimation of what to do to heal the fish. Fish show the same general symptoms for many different ailments.

In answer to your original question: I would not mix meds. Especially two that are both targeting the same problem--parasites. Meds are great but along with healing they add an additional stress to your fish and when fish are stressed they have a much harder time healing.

So here's what I would do: 
Continue treating with the sterazin following the treatment directions on the package exactly and finish the entire treatment. I believe they want you to dose on day 1, 3, 6, 8 and 10--not exactly every other day. Just prior to each dose do a partial water change using a good quality dechlorinator. Feed the fish sparingly during treatment and remove any uneaten food after ten minutes.

Robin

Do a search for planaria and nematodes--you'll feel better knowing what the dead worms are and I'm 99% sure they are one or the other. I use to have a good link that had pictures and descriptions but I can't seem to find it right now. :?


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## tompillen (May 15, 2010)

thanks robin, your replies are appreciated as are yours triscuit and anyone else who chips in. im scratching my head trying to find a cause but i just cant find one! im far from the perfect fish keeper but i treat my fish like they were my children (sad but true!) they are completely reliant on me and i do every thing i can to ensure they are safe and comfortable. i have e-mailed the manufacturers and awaiting a reply for recommendations on upping the dose due to the size of my fish and volume of water and amount of filtration i have. i will continue as stated on the bottle with this med on its own until im told different and see what happens. as for feeding - he wont eat at all so im only offering 1 pellet in the morning and leaving it for an hour to see if he tries eating it as he shys away when i open the lid and takes a while to gain confidence after i shut it. i have been on the net constantly trying to find out what these little fu**ers are so i can get them gone! i know he is old but he's not dieing of old age and as this is the case it is soley my fault and its my duty as a fish keeper to get him well again. when its his time to go of natural causes i wouldnt use meds or anything to stress him out - just let him go when he's ready but i beleive he has a good few years left if i can just get him eating again. he has been much more active today but still scratching and still not eating. keep the advice coming, i am listening and taking it all into account before i do anything.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

Just be cautious about maiking the cure worse than the disease.

Old age is hard to define, but keep in mind that susceptibility to disease can be a sign of old age. Old people, pets, and fish all die of something: even grampa has a heart attack finally. Slipping off peacefully in the night is what we all hope for, but rarely is aging so graceful. 7 years is a long time for a captive fish, no matter how long you think it should live.


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## tompillen (May 15, 2010)

quick update, i gave him a 30 ltr water change this morning to suck out all the dead worms and uneaten food. about 20 minutes after i noticed him picking up gravel and filtering it through his gills - something he hasnt done in years! he then kept looking up at the lid and looking through the gravel. i opened the lid and for th first time in over a week he didnt dart off and hide! i put a pellet in and bang! he ate it - then another and another and another! i thawed out a couple of peas, shelled them and fed him 4 pieces to help clear his stomach out and he wolfed the whole lot down! im so happy he is eating again, i thought i was gonna lose him. i know my problems far from over though. he is still scratching and a white worm looking lump has appeared just behind his eye. its not moving it looks like what i can only describe as a little bit of toothepaste! i will carry on with the sterazin but may up the dose from 16ml for 240ltrs to about 17 or 18ml just to give a bit more strength to it unless anyone recommends against this.


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

> i will carry on with the sterazin but may up the dose from 16ml for 240ltrs to about 17 or 18ml just to give a bit more strength to it unless anyone recommends against this.


I recommend against this!
Just follow the package directions and finish out the entire treatment.



> he is still scratching and a white worm looking lump has appeared just behind his eye. its not moving it looks like what i can only describe as a little bit of toothepaste! i


_A worm looking lump?_ Is it fuzzy or smooth? Is it a lump or long and string like (worm like)?

I'm glad he's showing improvement. Fit in those water changes whenever you can. Keep a close watch on the lump-worm-toothpaste behind his eye. If it starts to spread or change in any way let us know.

Robin

From your description I can't say what the lump-worm-toothpaste spot is but my initial guess is that it's some kind of bacteria. As a precaution to keep it from spreading you could increase water movement and add salt, (sodium chloride) at the rate of 1 tablespoon per five gallons. Dissolve the salt first and add it gradually over several hours time. The increased water movement and salt are not a cure for bacterial infections but rather help to prevent the bacteria from adhering to the fish's skin.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

That's good news, Tom. Keep up with the water changes. Do another one today for good measure. :thumb: What ever you do, DO NOT overfeed. Keep it to a minimum even though it's tempting to feed him as much as he wants. I'd even suggest waiting until he poops normally to feed him again.

I believe this tank has been salted already for an extended period... one of my theories is that the salt has caused some irritation for the fish. Robin- what is your experience with long term elevated salt levels (when not trying to cure something like ich)?


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## tompillen (May 15, 2010)

he eat the once this morning but when i dropped a pellet in this evening he ignored it again. at least his stomach is full. i take it the peas will help to get things moving inside him??? i am gradually reducing the salt lever with small 24 ltr water changes every day or everyother day (whenever the med is due) and hopefully it will help. do you advise following this med up with melafix to help with the irritation and as a preventative for bacterial infections? is it normal for him to eat then ignore it again? is it possible he wont eat anymore because he knows he cant get rid of what he has just eaten? will the peas act as a mild laxative to move his stomach again?


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## Robin (Sep 18, 2002)

> Robin- what is your experience with long term elevated salt levels (when not trying to cure something like ich)?


Personally I don't routinely add sodium chloride to my tank but many experienced aquarists swear by the routine use of 1 tablespoon/per five gallons and feel that their fish are healthier as a result. I have no argument with them--I've never heard anyone prove its harmful in anyway and besides, it's not a lot of salt. Of course some fish are more sensitive then others so just with the addition of anything new to your tank if you decide to add salt you should make the change gradually and watch for any indications that the fish are stressing. Something else to watch out for if you're adding salt is that salt doesn't evaporate out of the tank so you need to take that into account when doing water changes otherwise you may end up increasing the overall amount of salt. 
Tom: I would not stress over the eating at this point. It's a very good sign that he's shown _some_ interest in food but I'll second triscuit's warning: don't overfeed! Melafix is for healing wounds to prevent infections. If your fish has raw areas from scratching then go ahead and use the Melafix to heal those areas.

Robin


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## tompillen (May 15, 2010)

hi, after eating for 2 days he has stopped eating again - completely ignoring anything put in front of him. i thought he had his appetite back as he was eating like normal but now he has not eaten again for 2 days. i am due to do the last dose of sterazin in 48 hours. he is still scratching a bit but nowhere near as much. i have been doing daily 30ltr water changes to dilute the salt out. i have not seen him poo or seen any poo in the tank. i have notices some holes under his mouth on his 'chin'. he had no trouble eating and crunched his pellets like normal when he did eat. why wont he eat again? he seems more timid again now and shys away constantly. i thought he was on the mend but he is going back to how he was. i have been sooooooo careful to minimise stress. i have kept the lights off all the time, kept the water perfect and continued with the meds. why is this happening. what am i doing worng? could it be a secondary disease. he has eaten a few peas that i thought would help get his insides moving again but have not seen him go to toilet yet. please help!


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

You say there's no sign of bloating, so I don't think a laxative is going to help matters. But, if you want to try Epsom salt, it can't hurt. I dose at 1 TBS per 5 gallons, or about 1 g/L. Epsom is magnesium sulfate, and is pretty gentle at that concentration.

Other than that, I don't think there's any other treatments that you should try. I'm going to sound like a broken record, but your fish may be too old to have a properly functioning immune system.


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