# need help with my pleco



## venustus19 (Aug 30, 2007)

i know pleco are not cichlids, but i need some help... my common pleco is not acting normal... he has been just sitting in one area not moving, and seems to be breathing heavily... and when he does decide to swim, it is very like "seizure like" movement.... he runs into things, and then just stops, and doesn't move again for quite a while...
anyone happen to know what might be going on, or what i can do... should i get him out the my main tank and into a hospital tank... what should i use to treat him.... i have melafix, but is that somehting that works on plecos too...

please help me out and let me know what i can do... i hate to loose him... he is about 4-5 years old....
thanks


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## venustus19 (Aug 30, 2007)

also, his mouth is wide open, and he hasn't shut it since i have been down here... about 30 minutes to an hour...

thanks


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

At that age, you might just be dealing with problems of old age. That's a pretty long time to have a pleco.

I would try removing him to a tank of his own, and do some daily water changes on the tank.

Have you tried offering him an algae tab to see if he's eating? You might also blanch some zuchinni for him and offer that to him, once you get him in the hospital tank so he can eat in peace.

Any discolouration?


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## venustus19 (Aug 30, 2007)

ya, it seems like he lost some coloration in him... also, it kinda looks like i can see his veins almost... i se like red strains through his fins...

i did take him out of my tank and put him in my 20 long...

he hasn't eaten yet, the algea tab is still in the tank...

i guess it could be old age, but i thought plecos, specailly common, lived very long time... like 10+ years... or is that just in the wild???

thanks for you input, i don't think he is gonna make it... he breathing is kinda far apart and he is not moving.

but you think i should do water cahnges every day though, huh??? is there a reason for that???
meantime, i will do one right now...

thanks


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## Big Vine (Feb 26, 2007)

Sorry to hear about your ailing pleco.



venustus19 said:


> it kinda looks like i can see his veins almost... i se like red strains through his fins...


This sounds like septicemia, which from my understanding is a bacterial infection. Treating with Maracyn/Maracyn II may be in order, but I'd see what the experts have to say about it first, as I've never dealt with it firsthand.

Best of luck, and keep us posted.
BV


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I agree with BV. The red streaks sound like the fish has sepsis.

What were the water parameters on the main tank?

What is your usual tank maintenance routine?

If it is septicemia, he will need antibiotics, but you'll have to make sure you pick up some that are safe for plecos. I've used the combo BV mentioned before in a tank with plecos without any problems, and using both those meds together gives you good coverage against both gram positive and gram negative bacteria.

I'd still do water changes daily before adding the meds, and treat for a minimum of 7 days.

The longest I've ever had a pleco live in my tanks was 6 years, but my sister has one that is 12 years old!


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## venustus19 (Aug 30, 2007)

thanks for the info BV... i am gonna hopefully run out after work today and grab some of that stuff... i read the bottle of the melafix i have, it didn't say anything about not using it on certain fish, so i did a dose of that... he is still kicking... s till not moving much, but i don't see the red strains anymore, and he seems to be breathing alittle more normal... he is far from being back to normal, but i am keeping hope...

thanks for you input so far... anything else you might think of or come up with, let me know...
thanks


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Anytime you experience septicemia, you want to take a very close look at your water parameters and tank maintenance schedule! Poor water quality or organ failure are usually the culprits...Sometimes it can be contributed to both. Poor water quality can cause organ failure.

Daily water changes will be just as important as the meds, if it's truly septicemia- and it certainly sounds like that is what it is.


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## venustus19 (Aug 30, 2007)

ok... i will continue the water changes when i get home tonight, hopefully he is still living...

can i ask a couple questions then?
i always thought plecos were really hardy fish... wouldn't my cichlids in the tank become ill if my parameters were off? i don't check my parameters every waterchange, but i will make sure i check tonight before i do a WC...

i have another thread going in the lake malawi section named "GOOD NEWS, no comes the story behind it"... please read that, so i don't have to rewrite it... the day i did the major move, is when i noticed my pleco acting funny, so i am not sure how long he has been like that... 
whould i do another major water change in my 90 too... or just concetrate on the 20 long with the pleco in it?
with 3 of my fish either prego, of with fry in there mouth, doing a waterchange won't stress them out, will it... should i take alternate route with my WC, or just do my normal...

here is what i do: and i did it this past sunday...
in my 90, i do about 40% WC, razor blade the glass to remove algea, take off filters(AC110, Magnum HOB 250) and clean them, replace DIY polyfill bags, and return to tank... fill tank up with water, and add my stress coat per the directions on back... during water fill-up, i add baking soda to up my PH... now i usually don't do a set amount, i just dump some in, cause everywhere i read, people said that baking soda only gets so high of a PH and then settles...

that is pretty much it...

this past WC was differ though, cause i put my small fish into 90, and took my pleco out, and added a few more rocks, so the big mom can spit her fry, and so the little guys had a place to hide if they got picked on....

i'll check my parameters when i get home, and do a waterchange... hopefully he is ok... i appreciate all the help on this... i love this forum, and everyone has great opinions... especially the MODS....

thanks again everyone... i'll keep you posted with the parameters and how everyone is doing...


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I'm willing to bet that the "major move" is what stirred the water up enough to cause these problems.

It sounds like you're going to need to do some serious water changes...

Post back with the water parameters...I'm referring to the tank the problems started in, but it's going to be important to keep the smaller tank pristine, as well, if you want this guy to recover.

Plecos are usually tough, but you may have released some bacterial pockets from the substrate when you did the overhaul on the tank.

Water changes ALWAYS help, there is no need to neglect the tank when fish are holding.


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## venustus19 (Aug 30, 2007)

i will post back later tonight with my water parameters, but i wanted to get my pleco and the 20 long going with the meds... i went out and got marcyn II, and did a WC, and added the appropreiate amount for day 1... it doesn't say anything about doing a WC everyday for 5 days, it just says add 1 pouch for every 10 gallons of tank water... so, my question is right now, for tomorrow, am i supposed to do another WC, or just add the pouches everyday, and leave the WC go?
thanks...


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## venustus19 (Aug 30, 2007)

ok... i checked my parameters in my main tank... 
PH = 8-8.2
Ammonia = .25-.50 PPM
Nitrite = 0 PPM
Nitrate = 20-40 PPM

i did around a 50% WC just now, so i will check parameters agian tomorrow night.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

You need to get that ammonia level down with frequent water changes. It should be zero. You may need to do more than one water change a day. Using Prime with the water changes will aid in detoxifying the ammonia.

I would imagine that is the reason your pleco has septicemia. 

It can also do long term damage to the internal organs of your other fish.


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## Denny (Sep 27, 2008)

I have 4 little piggies (plecos ) in my community 85g tank. Most plecos are very hardy. Keep in mind there are many different species of them. I do a 50% WC at least once a week and add a little sea salt with each WC. 


















Mine will eat everything except the other cichlids they can get away with. Your fishes health dependes on your provider instincts. Vary the feed if you can, no blood worms and if possible provide your cichlids with a treat of live grass shrimp; not frozen. I've found the cichlids benefit from the live shrimp as feed and excercising and toning their natural instincts. Nothing lives forever but with your good care all benefit from each other. Enjoy!


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Denny, food isn't the issue here. The pleco appears to have what is commonly called "blood poisoning".

And, it is best NOT to recommend feeding live food to fish unless you know the species involved. :thumb:


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## venustus19 (Aug 30, 2007)

do you know if i should do WC's everyday still... the Maracyn II says nothing about doing WC's... it just says for day 1, use 2 packs per 10 gallons of tank water, and days 2-5, just use 1 pack per 10 gallons of tank water...

i am unsure if i should or not... i hate to do one or the other, and screw up... you happen to know what i should do...

i am thinking the directions say nothing about WC's, so i should probably not do them...


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I would do daily water changes just prior to adding meds. :thumb:


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## venustus19 (Aug 30, 2007)

ok, just a little update for tonight...

my pleco is still alive, so that is good news, but i did read, that septicemia can be a long and terrible death, so i hope that is not the case, lets keep our fingers crossed...

on my main tank, i checked my parameters again, and they are as follows:
PH = 8-8.2
Ammonia = not quite 0, but def under .25PPM
Nitrate = 10-20PPM, closer to 10

so, much better than yesterday, but i am gonna do another 50% WC right now, just wanted to give you an update, sinse you guys have been helping me so much...

again, thanks for all your help so far.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Keep the water changes up...It may take you a couple of weeks to pull out of this completely as far as keeping the main tank where you want it to be. It's easy for that ammonia level to creep back up. Once things are leveled out, take a good look at your normal tank maintenance habits as well as your filtration on the tank. If you're doing regular tank maintenance and still having problems, you may need to cut back on feeding amounts and increase your filtration for the tank.

Septicemia is a very serious illness. Depending on how long it's been going on, damage may have been done to the internal organs of the pleco. The fact that he is still alive is a plus, though, so I would continue what you're doing. :thumb:

Good luck!


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## Big Vine (Feb 26, 2007)

Yes, best of luck, and please continue with the updates.
I'm hoping the pleco will be able to muster up the strength needed for a recovery. :thumb:
BV


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## Denny (Sep 27, 2008)

Here's some additional info on your problem. I hope it helps. Also read up on Furanace. It might help you with your problem. One thing about Furance you have to keep in mind is that it turns your water yellow green. You should use it in another tank. Found it to be very good should your cichlids ever have the bloat. OK here's some info:
Common Name: Hemorrhagic Septicemia 
Pathogen/Cause: Various organisms, Ammonia spike (This may have been the cause)
Physical Signs: Distinct bright red streaks on fins (caused by vascular inflammation due to systemic/bloodborne bacterial infection) and occasionally patchy red discoloration on the flanks of the body. 
Behavioral Signs: Depends on severity of condition. If due to ammonia, may show in conjunction with hyperventilation (fast breathing) and gasping at the surface, erratic swimming, etc. 
Potential Treatment: Broad spectrum antibiotic. Can resolve spontaneously in some fish if source of water quality problem is removed. 
Other Notes: Check water quality, especially if fish exhibiting other signs of ammonia poisoning (gasping at surface). Regular water changes and measuring of ammonia/nitrite (especially if relatively new tank) are a must. In FW, commonly seen in goldfish due to their naturally high ammonia output. In SW, often seen in tangs due to their inability to tolerate sudden water quality changes and susceptibility to shock.


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## venustus19 (Aug 30, 2007)

thanks for the info... i am under the assumption that my ammonia is what caused him to get septecemia... he is doing much better, but i still don't think he is eating... when i do my WC every night, his wafer is broken apart due to the water, and i don't think any is missing... he is breathing better, although i think his mouth is still open, and i haven't noticed the red streaks, but i also have not been turning on the light... so i am not 100% sure that is gone, but when he is close to the front of the tank, i do not notice it... he still doesn't really swim around, but when he does move, he moves not so erratic like before...

i still have tonight and tomorrow night to use my maracyn II... for the 5 day treatment...

i do/and will still have plenty of maracyn II left... do you think if he is not better by sat, i should run another 5 day treatment on him, or just put him back in my tank and hope for the best???


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

It's not unusual to have to treat longer than the package directions say to treat. When I use antibioitics, I always treat for a minimum of 7 days, 10 if it's really severe.


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## venustus19 (Aug 30, 2007)

10 days in a row, or do you think i should wait a day or 2...

i started on mon, will end on friday... should i wait till monday again to start again, or just conitue for another 5 days???


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I go 10 days in a row...You have to keep in mind how mild these meds are to be able to be purchased without a prescription!

Keep up the water changes, as well! That's got to help!


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## venustus19 (Aug 30, 2007)

figured i just give an update:

pleco still fighting... maybe small degree of getting better... i think he finally ate, i went down there the other night to suck up the un eaten wafer, and it was not there... so either it totally disinegrated, which i highly doubt, got sucked up into filters, which i also highly doubt, or he ate it... i am going with he ate it... 

i was also reading the maracyn II box... i did read the directions, but in an area that was "about maracyn II", it said, that water changes, changing out filter media, and temperature do not have to be messed with... unless the parameters of the water are bad, no need to do waterchanges everyday... so, i stopped doing th WC everyday... i am gonna run the 2nd treatment without WC and and see what happens... i am hoping he gets better faster without doing the WC... i am thinking the WC took out the treatment, and was kinda useless...

that's it for now... just thought i'd share... i guess it is good to read the whole "manual", and not just the directions...


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

If you did the water changes just prior to administering the meds for the day, you didn't remove the meds.

They might not be deemed "necessary" by the manufacturer, but they always help in situations like this. (Keep in mind that they will be more than happy to sell you more meds, as well. :wink: )


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## venustus19 (Aug 30, 2007)

ya, of course... who wouldn't be happy to sell more stuff 

say i do my WC at 10pm... after the WC, i then administer the meds... then the following day at 10pm, i did another WC, and then administered the meds, so on and so forth...

my thinking behind not doing the WC, is that the meds continue to stay in the tank, getting a little more "aggresive" each day. i do not administer any more or any less meds, but just that all the meds given stay in the tank... i don't know, jsut my thought...


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## venustus19 (Aug 30, 2007)

ok... another update and questions...

he is still living, not sure how well he is living, it doesn't really seem like he is getting better... his red strains are gone, but he still really doesn't move, not sure how much he eats, if anything, but i have been doing the treatment now for 11 days... 
should i stop doing the meds, or keep them up???
if i stop doing the meds, should i keep him out of my main tank, or see what happens... 
i guess i am afraid that if i put him in the main tank, he'll either effect the other fish, or die... either one of which i do not want...

so, not sure what to do... i hate to keep giving him meds if i am just prolonging his life by days, and not years... i don't have a pic of him either, but right on the front of his mouth, on the top part, is all whitish looking... it's been there from the beginning, but has not gotten better... i thought it was just from him running into things, but it's not getting better... can i put the maracyn II in plus like melafix or something else for is wound, or is it not a wound, and is another disease...

let me know what you think i should do... i hate thinking that i am just prolonging the enevidable, and i also hate thinking that maybe the best thing to do is to take him out of the tank and put him in the freezer or something and let him die... 

any thoughts...
thanks


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## Big Vine (Feb 26, 2007)

At this point I'm gonna have to say that long-term exposure to nitrAtes may be catching up to him. And I say this based on information I've seen posted over on another forum (oscarfish.com) by an experienced member.

This member, who also happens to be a senior mod and part of the 'Advice Team,' has investigated several studies relating to nitrAtes and their long-term effects on fish. According to these studies, a constant exposure to nitrAtes at or exceeding 21 PPM will, over the long-haul, lead to permanent damage---which ultimately will manifest itself in the premature death of fish due to organ failure.

I would have to assume that this, along with any possible recent exposure to septicemia and/or any other bacterial ailments, is what is ultimately responsible for what you are now witnessing in your pleco. 'Kmuda,' the member who has referenced these studies, has stated that these long-term effects usually creep up by about the 5-year mark.

I'd of course like to see some input from others on this issue, but based on what has been going on I'd strongly consider euthanasia. Sorry for the grim feedback. Your efforts in trying to help this fish have been nothing short of admirable.
BV


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## venustus19 (Aug 30, 2007)

i know it is not the feedback i would like to hear, but it is the feedback i want/need to know... i do not want my pleco to be in "pain" so to say, so if euthanasia is the answer, so be it...
he has lived a good life, so i am not sorry to have to do this to him, i am just sad...

now, if i am going to eithanize him, how should i do it... what is the most human way to do it...

should i: take him out and put inn freezer...
should i: take him out and put him in a plastic bag of water and freeze him...

or any other options you think is better... please let me know, so he can finally be in peace...

thanks...


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## venustus19 (Aug 30, 2007)

well, dispite the feedback about euthenizing my pleco, i jsut couldn't do it... but, now that i didn't, i am glad... i found him last night swimming around, sucking on the glass, and eating a wafer... i am sure he ate, just when i was not around, but that was the first time i saw him act normal since this thread started... so, hopefully he will be good to go to return to my main tank soon... i am gonna wait about another few days, and make sure he stays normal...
just thought some people who helped me would like to know...
thanks again for your input, even though i didn't take it. :lol:


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## Denny (Sep 27, 2008)

Glad for you. Sometimes it's worth waiting and not rushing into things. Hope the pleco recovers fully.


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## venustus19 (Aug 30, 2007)

well, sinse the last post to this thread, it's been over 2 months, and for those of you who care, my pleco is doing very well... maybe even better than before the septicemia... he is swimming all over the place, and when i go down there for food, he acts just like one of the cichlids... swims around the top of the tank, and chases the other cichlids around, not in a harmful way, and they don't fight or anything, but like "i'm here for the long haul, this is my tank"... he has been through alot sinse i started this tank in Jan 05... through the noobie stage of not knowing how to stock a tank, to 2 major moves and overhauls, the sepsis... i am sure the list is longer, but enough said...
he is the oldest fish in my tank, and although i will never get a common placo again, i would have hated to loose him...
anyways, thanks again to all that helped me through this process and helping my pleco recover a million times better than i would have ever guessed.
thank you, thank you, thank you...


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## venustus19 (Aug 30, 2007)

hey guys... i was just wasting some time at work on this forum, and run across my thread about my pleco... figured i would give another quick update...
ALL IS WELL WITH HIM STILL!!! :thumb: =D> :thumb: 
i am shocked this thread started way back in Nov. of 08... 
ok, that's all.


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