# drilled tank questions...



## bearwithfish (Dec 20, 2010)

so i got the 72 bow front in and its drilled (which i wanted) how ever its drilled at the top of the tank ( i wanted the bottom But i can not be so picky at this time) .. the plan is to use a wet/dry filter i am making... this will be a fresh water tank (Lake Malawi Cichlids) so i really want to Over Dose on the filtration.. my question stems from never having used a drilled tank before.. i have seen Dorso over flows and they are quiet (which i like) so with the hole up high can i effectively build a short version and get good results? if not what should i do here i really want to make it work it i can but if not i am going to plug it and go with a more traditional (sorta) canister filter....


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Are there built in overflows or just holes near the top? Can you post a pic?

It may be designed to work with external durso's like I fitted mine with. There are different ways to do durso's. So, don't give up yet.


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## bearwithfish (Dec 20, 2010)

i am not giving up just a bit confused LOL as i have said else where i have done a lot of tanks over the years i just never did a drilled one....

there is just one large hole drilled near the top (i will post pix tonight) but yeah i can see how an external would work on it..... now for the part inside the tank should i use an elbow pointed down or up? or just let it flow into the hole? you pix look like you use both.. i am trying to get a lot of flow and little noise LOL....i know the hole in the end-cap makes a world of difference from all the reading i have done.. BTW the hole is approx 1-1.5 inches and has a bulk head included, i will need to saw off the very end as the last person glued an elbow on that will not work for me to add to this set up.... but i will have some room before the threads...

there is no overflow box at all inside the tank.. with this being fresh water should i build one? i was kinda hoping to avoid it as i just want massive flow... but the more i think on it the safer a box seams.. i


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> now for the part inside the tank should i use an elbow pointed down or up? or just let it flow into the hole? you pix look like you use both..


Depends on the height of the hole. I designed one drain with an elbow as an 'emergency' drain, but it turned out to be a nice skimmer and takes in a bit of water at all times. But that hole is lower on the back to allow for the elbow. If the hole is down a few inches, then obviously you don't want to just allow the water to drain into it because you're water level will be too low. The 'skimmer' drain also sets the water height. I played around with desiging this so the holes and drain heights would work a certain way. You don't really have that option. I cut the elbows off so they'd be the right height. Ended up having to use some plastic gutter guard inside because fry were getting into the drain and ending up in my perfilter tray. Some of this depends on pump output as well. If the pump is pushing near max of what the drain can handle, then the water will ride higher. I'd suggest being prepared with different fittings and ideas so you can do some trial and error.












> i know the hole in the end-cap makes a world of difference from all the reading i have done..


It does. Hard to see, but you want to drill the hole in from the side. That way you can just turn the cap to increase/decrease amount of air. You can see this a little better in this pic. The tee has a short length of pipe that the cap fits onto. Drill through the side of the cap and pipe. Obviously, don't glue the cap on. 












> BTW the hole is approx 1-1.5 inches and has a bulk head included, i will need to saw off the very end as the last person glued an elbow on that will not work for me to add to this set up.... but i will have some room before the threads...


I'd remove the bulk head and start new. They're cheap enough.


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## bearwithfish (Dec 20, 2010)

man thanx a ton really this helps so much .... so i am going to replace the bulk head (or make my own LOL) and put an up facing elbow to keep my level high and not take on so much in the sump with power outs (feeding time actual loss of poser etc..) and use some kind of screening or grid to avoid fish loss... now i really love the way you have the dorso drilled and you are the first one on any forum to suggest it this way so it can be tuned versus being drilled re drilled and then replaced to try again!!!!

now comes the question on my mind (again i know i sound like a noob) with the out flow so high as long as i have high turn over i should be good to go right? my thought was that waste does not suspend as much in fresh water (hence all my other tanks rely on mid level or bottom intakes for the filters) and i missing something in my assumtion?

again in case you did not catch it the first time thank you sooooo much i really mean it .. i am usually the one teaching and its good to know that A) i dont know everything and B) there are others out there willing to share knowledge LOL...


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> you are the first one on any forum to suggest it this way


Thanks, but not my idea orginally, I got it from somewhere. Just can't remember where.



> my thought was that waste does not suspend as much in fresh water (hence all my other tanks rely on mid level or bottom intakes for the filters) and i missing something in my assumtion?


I keep hearing that, but my prefilter pads would beg to differ. I think the whole design comes into play here though. I made my returns so they push and circulate water in all directions. There are a series of holes that shoot up for some surface ripple, then two rows that push water down. Here's a couple of pics. A bit hard to see, but you get the idea. I didn't glue the return line in, no need. And that gives me the option of changing things or just rotating it a bit to accomplish different things.





















> put an up facing elbow to keep my level high and not take on so much in the sump with power outs


Watch your returns as they're usually what siphon drains during power outs. You can see mine aren't any lower than the drains, so they're fine. Plus I designed it so that the returns go up above the tanks before flowing down into. If the returns extend down into the tank, then you need to plan to use check valves, drilled hole near the surface to break siphon, or both.


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## bearwithfish (Dec 20, 2010)

my returns will not be drilled and i was considering a "T" from pump to have one return in the middle of the tank angled at 45 degrees at towards the front of the tank and one at the far end from the overflow with a 90 degree turn (to shoot towards the other end) and have that also angled about 45 degrees down.....
i have used a siphon break on my salt so i am familiar with that part. i guess my only real worries are 
A) height of the out flow (this needs experimentation) 
B) noise.... the hole in the back will help but i worry that the part inside the tank will make a ton of racket.... i dont want to face hte pipe down to avoid flooding LOL ... oh unless a siphon break would work in this case also .. perhaps drilled just below where i want the water line and in a power out case it will only draw to there...hmmmmm what are your thoughts...

but again i guess its one of those things i am going to have to see in action to really understand .... you have been a great help i am just a paranoid person until i build it some things will not make sence

i am the guy who needs to see it to understand it (your pix have been great) it am basing most of my concerns off of a set up not really related..... sorry for being so circular in my discussion its kinda how my mind works LOL


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> but i worry that the part inside the tank will make a ton of racket....


Not sure why it would. A durso is quiet. It's usually when the water hits the sump that you get the noise.



> i am the guy who needs to see it to understand it


I'm the same. I'd suggest getting hold of a cheap tub of some sort to act as a temp sump, and using that to test. PVC piping and fittings are cheap, so they can be redone at little cost while testing. Mine didn't work exactly as anticipated when I first started it up, but was easy to tweak and modify. Expect that.

Glad to help.


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## bearwithfish (Dec 20, 2010)

glad i am not the only one LOL
here are some pix


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Pics are a bit dark, so I'm having a hard time really seeing what you're dealing with.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

If at all possible, do your setup and tuning in a garage.
A pair of sawhorse, bench top, or any other stable surface that would replicate your tanks height.
A container to act as the sump.
No pressure or floor worries.
You can focus on setup and fine tuning only.
I know, it`s a tough time of year to be out of the warm house, but doing it this way makes the final setup very easy.
Good luck with your project.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I can see the pics better now, maybe it was my home computer. 

John makes a good point. I always do this in my basement near a drain.

I see one drain there. I would run it first as is with just a strainer over it. See what the water level does, then go for some type of elbow only if needed.

Can you get a pic from the front showing the hole placements and heights?


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## bearwithfish (Dec 20, 2010)

i can try the back is black and the bulkhead is also so they all came out solid looking LOL.... with out an accurate measurement i would sat the enter of the hole is approx 2inches down from the rim and about 2.5 in from the side...

thank you for the siggestion about testing .. were i in any other situation i would do just that... my actual plan however is to work on the seals this week end... and work out the plumbing basics this is an intentionally slow build and it most likely will not see water for another month or two as i get things moving.. here is the full list of items to be done and sorta the order (some will be done at the same time) 
new seals

plumbing

stand (modification or rebuild i have not decided yet)

build the wet/dry (bio-tower and spare tank) design ATM calls for a small refugium for plants as the stock i am considering typically will tear them up if they were in the DT

background (see other thread it will be made from plastic pavers)

substrate (crushed coral and aragonite mix to address water issues and for the great look)

then finally water and start the cycle.. this will give me 4-6 weeks to work out various decor and start locating the stock i would like...

now i know a lot of this will need tuning once assembled but i am ok with that....


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I think I can see enough. I re-read and see there's just the one hole for the drain. This should work well.

Another suggestion came to mind. Consider using the ball and socket tubing inside the tank. You can find it cheaper elsewhere, just wanted to show you what it was. It can give you some flexiblity when positioning returns. Teeing them off and pointing one up for surface ripple and one down for circulation is something to consider. I used these on my first tank project, but made my own returns in the fish room due to cost. I needed 16 returns.

Have you thought about pump and pump size? What size will your drain plumbing be? Hard to tell, but looks like 1" PVC lying there in the pic. Have you seen the drain size calculator? If that's 1" PVC, it'll handle 600gph. I'd push it to it's max. I like the Danner mag drives. The mag 7 will only do about 400gph at 5' head, so I'd bump up to the mag9.5 (they're calling them mag700 and mag900's now apparently). They've got a sale going here. You can always throttle it back with a valve if it pushes too much. Better to have too much than not enough, and it's only an extra $17 for the 900 over the 700. (Now why they rate them at 3' head is beyond me, since no one puts the tank rim at a height of 3'.)

Maybe you've got all this worked out. I just love these projects.


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## bearwithfish (Dec 20, 2010)

ok so let me take that one at a time 
that was 3/4 inch scrap i placed in there off my old tank just so it would not be on the floor LOL 
the bulk head looks to take 1 inch but i am going to measure this soon to be sure 
it seems to me that getting 5x turn over works out to 360 GPH that said i was considering about 400-700 depending on what i find for a pump and i always use a t valve back into the sump for regulating throttle (to prevent burn out on the pump LOL) 
now as for the returns i kinda like the ball and socket but.. i am a cheap guy and prefer to create things so that the tank is that much more my own you know? that said i also have a butt load of PVC hanging around so cost will be next to nothing for the returns (again i am a cheap guy) .. i have been looking around at pumps and think i found one on Dr. froster and smith for about 37.00 shipped (http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/p ... catid=8164) the 2300 but i have not decided fully as i have time to consider this yet...


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Be careful with picking a pump. Those are rated by simply 'gph'. That means it'll push that much if you're not pushing it vertically at all, so it's kind of a useless rating. Max head on those is 6-7', so gph at 5' is going to be quite a bit lower than the max gph given, particularly with a max head of 6'. At 5', you'll probably get a trickle. If a pump doesn't give a rating at certain head heights, I'd seek that info out or pass it by.


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## bearwithfish (Dec 20, 2010)

ahh good point ..... i need to push it at about 5' not counting bends and such ssoooo the search continues... LOL i have time .. maybe i will find one used .... i looked in the trading post did not see much there will check a few other places.... again time is my friend in this build


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## Malawi_Junkie (Nov 26, 2009)

Danner mag-drive pumps are amazing IMO. They're a little pricey but well worth every penny from my experience. Mag-drive 9.5 = 950gph and has a max head height of 14 ft which lists 800gph @ 3ft which would be close to your desired flow rate. The 12 would definitly get'er done.


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## bearwithfish (Dec 20, 2010)

i think i have found the pum pi wanted and the price is right froma company i have done business with in the past.... now i just gota get the dough together and we are golden.... cut off the old bulkhead last night and found that i would have been able to salvage it but for the last owner PVC glueing it with half a bottle LOL..... so at least i have the part to bring with me for size comparison.... a 1" pipe slid into the old one what would you say the OD was? i can bring the old one with me but having a bit of a clue would help too....


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> a 1" pipe slid into the old one what would you say the OD was?


Not sure I understand. Can't you just measure the OD?


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## bearwithfish (Dec 20, 2010)

yeah wheni am home but the thought just poped in my head i am having a slow morning ..not enough coffee or smokes yet LOL


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

A 1" PVC pipe has an OD of 1.315". (about 1-5/16")

Here's a chart of sizes


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## bearwithfish (Dec 20, 2010)

right but i was refering to the OD oft the bulk head that takes the 1" PVC pipe its all good man just thinking out loud and not making sense to my self either LOL


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I know it requires 1-3/4" hole, so it's probably somewhere between 1-1/2" and 1-5/8".


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## bearwithfish (Dec 20, 2010)

ah ha thank you .... again just kinda over thinking with under brain power LOL you rock man thanx


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## bearwithfish (Dec 20, 2010)

ok so i measured the hole and it is 1.75" that said if i was to use sch 40 PVC i think a 1.5inch connection may be the best fit to make my own bulk head... with out having been to the store to measure it yet does this sound accurate?

also messing around last night i was incluned to "make" the old one work just for fun LOL it turns out that 3/4" PVC slides super tight inside the 1" PVC that is glued into the hole!! this brings up the question as to weather or not 3/4" would support enough flow in this case? if so i have 98% of the materials i need on hand and can make this this week end after i do the seals...

thoughts? and yes i have had a bit of coffee and seem to be thinking much better today LOL


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> ok so i measured the hole and it is 1.75" that said if i was to use sch 40 PVC i think a 1.5inch connection may be the best fit to make my own bulk head... with out having been to the store to measure it yet does this sound accurate?


Not sure, as I always just bought my bulkheads. I looked into making them, but the fittings aren't really made for that purpose, seemed to me, and I didn't want to risk leaks just to save a few $$.



> also messing around last night i was incluned to "make" the old one work just for fun LOL it turns out that 3/4" PVC slides super tight inside the 1" PVC that is glued into the hole!! this brings up the question as to weather or not 3/4" would support enough flow in this case? if so i have 98% of the materials i need on hand and can make this this week end after i do the seals...


The fittings and pipe cost pennies. I'd use new stuff that was optimally sized. Just me.


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## bearwithfish (Dec 20, 2010)

kinda my thoughts as well just playing around and found it "worked" LOL ....


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## Tristan_1202 (Apr 28, 2010)

I know that this setup would be overly excessive for freshwater applications but even so it is well worth the look and contemplation. It is essentially a fail safe overflow system with zero noise due to the pipes being under continual syphon. The real benefit of this design allows you to put a lot more flow into your tank then you could ever get with a standpipe.

http://www.beananimal.com/projects/sile ... ystem.aspx

It might be too late for your tank now, but maybe a good reference point for the future?


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Tristan_1202 said:


> I know that this setup would be overly excessive for freshwater applications but even so it is well worth the look and contemplation. It is essentially a fail safe overflow system with zero noise due to the pipes being under continual syphon.
> 
> http://www.beananimal.com/projects/sile ... ystem.aspx
> 
> It might be too late for your tank now, but maybe a good reference point for the future?


I had seen that article when I designed mine. Just seemed somewhat complex and required an overflow box be built into the tank. Looks like fun, high tech stuff though, a tinkerer's dream. I was going for simple as I had eight tanks to do.

I took a lot from what was called the 'Herbie Method', I believe on Reef Central (at least I think it was Reef Central). I do like how they cut slots into the upturned elbow as a strainer. I ended up adding gutter guard to mine to keep fry out.


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## Tristan_1202 (Apr 28, 2010)

Yeah I wouldn't want to do this to 8 tanks, 32 holes is a few too many. I plan on starting this setup this week sometime. Just need to order a couple pieces of tinted glass to make the overflow box. My current overflow box is noisy and a pain in the you know what so it's time for an upgrade. The best part is the tank is empty so I can tinker all I want.


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## bearwithfish (Dec 20, 2010)

so the Brother in law is hanging out tonight and we get tossing ideas around about this and that and the issue of my bulk head came up.. he agrees with not using a smaller tube inside and also agrees that waiting to order one is a pain in the butt as we can not get them locally... so he gets looking at the thing and just smiles and asks for a hack say blade and a screw driver.. dude in 10 minutes he had the "glued" in piece out and the bulk head is not even nicked!!!!!!!! so i am back in the game.... i need a few more pieces (that i can get locally on Friday) and i can start assembly on the external dorso!! i am so excited!!!

now i want to go over this part one last time (please for give me) 
the hole is 1"
so should i go 1" to 1" and down to the sump with 1" or should i go 1" to 3/4" at the "T" ffor the dorso and 3/4 to the sump? my plan is to go 3/4" for the return.... (will go over the return in another post soon as i had a cool idea i want to focus on) ....
the planed pump will have a safety "T" to regulate flow to the tank but will have 1000GPH at the 5' head height... i will be able to choke it back and re feed the pump to the sump to avoid burn out (much like i had in my salt water tank)


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Go with 1' for the drain, don't restrict it. 3/4" is fine for the return.

I believe with mag drives you don't have to T it back to the sump. It can be valved without damage to the pump. Not sure what pump you have though. Maybe someone else can confirm that.


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## bearwithfish (Dec 20, 2010)

thank you .. now on to the return 
i was considering a few options and wanted to ask about them

1) return to center of tank and submerged spray bar to opposing end of tank with holes every 1/2 - 1 inch (from center to end)

2) spray bar in middle and opposing end (center and end)

3) angled elbow in middle and one at opposing end (no spray bar just open ended pipes)

4) Spray bar type pipe from top to bottom on opposing end and 2 rows of holes in different directions....

i want the most flow with the least equipment in the tank... all pipes will be painted but i still dont want a ton of junk in the tank LOL


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

I went with spray bars at the ends with 3 series of holes, one at the top for surface ripple, and then tow rows in the lower part of the bar for circulation. Some of it depends on drain placement, but I'm not sure that there's really a 'wrong' way to do this. I like to just be sure of getting some surface ripple.


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## bearwithfish (Dec 20, 2010)

great deal!!! upon further thought i was leaning more towards one accross the back with holes to hit the sirface a bit and then two rows at 45 and 90 degrees from the surface (downward of course)


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

bearwithfish said:


> great deal!!! upon further thought i was leaning more towards one accross the back with holes to hit the sirface a bit and then two rows at 45 and 90 degrees from the surface (downward of course)


That's exactly what I did, but on the ends. Works well.


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## bearwithfish (Dec 20, 2010)

as my overflow is on the right (when facing tank) i will install this from the center to the left


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