# First Rift Africans ...



## wryan

Well, today I finally took the plunge and picked up my first Rift Lake Africans from one of our small LFS.

Pseudotropheus Acei and Julidiochromis transcriptus (unsure of what, if any, localized sub-variety - they were pretty busy and I figured I could ask later when it wasn't quite so hectic)

The Julies came from a breeding pair they had for a long time but finally sold.

They are all small juveniles ... about 1 1/8" to 1 1/4" long ... three of each.

I contemplated taking all the Julies (they had seven left) but then had second thoughts and figured I'd see if I can pick up some more individuals of each from another source, hopefully for genetic diversity's sake.

Right now they are all in a 10 gallon tank ... figured I could get away with it for a little bit, until I get some more larger tanks set up.

Their behavior and interactions are fascinating to watch.

All I can say beyond that, is that my homebrew fishfood appears to be very popular with them ... :lol:


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## Fogelhund

Congrats on your purchase.... however, Julidochromis transcriptus and Ps. acei are not very compatible fish long term. The direction that would be recommended, depends on which of these fish you want to keep, and what sized tank you end up getting. Of course, you have the option available to you that most of us ended up taking, which is getting more tanks... one to start with the transcriptus, the other the acei.


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## wryan

Fogelhund said:


> Congrats on your purchase.... however, Julidochromis transcriptus and Ps. acei are not very compatible fish long term.


Fogelhund,

Yes, thanks for the insights. The 10g was/is only a temporary solution ...



Fogelhund said:


> The direction that would be recommended, depends on which of these fish you want to keep, and what sized tank you end up getting. Of course, you have the option available to you that most of us ended up taking, which is getting more tanks... one to start with the transcriptus, the other the acei.


I currently have two tanks set up and running ... the 10g previously mentioned and a 55g which is a community tank of sorts (mostly anabantidae and botia)

I also have 20L (new) and another 55g, which is old and kind of rough ... but it holds water. Current plan is to use the old 55g as a sump for the other 55g which is in nice shape. Will just require constructing a new stand, to provide adequate working space above the sump.

Due to their small size at maturity, the 20L could be set up as a "cookie cutter" Tanganyikan tank, incorporating the Julies as part of the community ... or just left as species only tank. I just need to figure out where I'm going to locate the tank and pick up another filter for it.

The 10g will probably be relegated back to a hospital/isolation tank ... or perhaps a breeding tank for Julies if any pair off.

The P. acei will obviously need something quite a bit larger, given that they are roughly double the size of the Julies at maturity ... probably at least a 55 ?

The the fish in the currently running 55g can be re-homed (two went yesterday) and that tank converted to into a mbuna tank ... assuming the tank gods don't smile on me and I don't wind up with more glass in the interim ...


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## DJRansome

Some have success with acei in a 55G but a 75G 48x18 is more comfortable. There are other mbuna that don't get as large that would work in a 55G.

The julidochromis should be ok in the 20L as long as you did not get a large aggressive species.


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## wryan

DJ,

Thanks for the input.



DJRansome said:


> Some have success with acei in a 55G but a 75G 48x18 is more comfortable.


I was wondering how the aspect ratio of the 55's footprint might play into it ... but I can sure see how having 50% more tank width would be more "comfortable" (an apt description ) for a fish that grows to 6" O.A.L.

More room has to equal less stress which undoubtedly is a good thing.



DJRansome said:


> There are other mbuna that don't get as large that would work in a 55G.


More research ... 



DJRansome said:


> The julidochromis should be ok in the 20L as long as you did not get a large aggressive species.


Yeah ... from what I can tell from my limited research, these might be the smallest of the Julies (or one of them) ... 3" supposedly as the max O.A.L.

So hopefully we'll be good.


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## DJRansome

Acei often exceed 6".


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## wryan

DJRansome said:


> Acei often exceed 6".


Interesting ... thanks ... :thumb:

By how much ?


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## wryan

The temporary 10g home:










There's an anubias in there, along with some free floating java ferns (that I need to attach to rocks) ... and some java moss that had attached itself to the lava rock.

If past experience is any indicator, the java moss will go nuts and have to pruned to be kept in check and to keep it from attaching itself to the gravel.

They seem to be content ... nibbling and picking at everything ... with no adverse indications of stress.

Kinda surprising, as they're likely in pretty soft water.

That will be the next major task ... slowly changing over their water to what is there before it goes through the softener (hard)

The current setup here at the house is: well ---> pressure tank ---> sediment/iron filter (a simple affair that uses a poly mesh cartridge mebbe) ---> another small container that holds some kind of (dissolvable) element that is intended to reduce iron buildup in the water pipes I think (not sure exactly what it is) ---> softener ---> to the rest of the plumbing in the house.

I have a faucet between the pressure tank and the first filter that I can draw water from for PWC's ... or I can just put the softener on bypass to draw water from any faucet in the house ... but the water would still go through the sediment/iron filter and the other dissolvable element.

Anyone have any thoughts on the best course of action, in terms of which point I'm drawing water from, for PWC's ?


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## james1983

wryan said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> 
> Acei often exceed 6".
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting ... thanks ... :thumb:
> 
> By how much ?
Click to expand...

I had one around 7"-8".


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## wryan

james,

Thanks for the feedback ... good to know :thumb:



james1983 said:


> I had one around 7"-8".


Evidently life in the aquarium agrees with them.

How could it not, with a good dinner being served on a regular basis ?


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## DJRansome

It's easier to have hot/cold to mix for PWC...do you have this before the softener?

If you bypass the softener how long do you have to run the water before the salts are flushed through and you get "clean" water? Sounds like a good option.


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## wryan

DJRansome said:


> It's easier to have hot/cold to mix for PWC...do you have this before the softener?


Nope ... just cold.

Current procedure is to draw cold water in 1 gallon milk jugs ... it then sits at least 24 hours (but usually a week) to outgas and come up to room temp.

It's a pain in the butt which is why I'm looking to get away from it.

The temp hasn't been that big of a deal, given the current tank inhabitants and the amount of water changed (12 - 15 gallons on the 55 each pwc typically)

The temp will usually drop a degree or two at most ... but it may be more of an issue with the Africans, and it's obviously not "best practices" ...

Thanks for pointing it out.



DJRansome said:


> If you bypass the softener how long do you have to run the water before the salts are flushed through and you get "clean" water? Sounds like a good option.


The softener regenerates based on gallons used. I doubt there is very much salt (if any) in the water after a regen ... if there were, we probably be tasting it. Nonetheless it's probably worth checking.

I'm pretty sure the salt is only used to release the minerals in the internal resin beads in the softener, which the minerals in the (hard) water adhere to. Once it completes it's backflush any of the "salty" water should have been purged.

I do have an (never used) 65g plastic sprayer tank I could repurpose as a water holding tank to heat/age water ... although it would be more economical to just use the hot water from the domestic hot water heater, since the gas to heat it is free (but electricity isn't)


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## DJRansome

I thought you said you could bypass the softener...you would not taste the salt. It's not NaCl like table salt.

I would use water before the softener, even if it has to be all cold. You want to change 50% (or more) weekly (and all at once) if possible. Get a Python for siphoning water in/out and eliminate buckets.

You don't want to change temp by more than 1-2 degrees so if you need a storage tank that could work.


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## Deeda

wryan, it sounds like you have a Kinetico softener but I'm not sure what the 'dissolvable' element might be so if you have the system regularly serviced, I'd ask for more specifics.

I also have a similar setup for my well water (sans the dissolvable element) and I used to just bypass the Kinetico softener, fill a large Brute trash can (on a dolly) with cold water and then bring to temperature with a submersible aquarium heater before pumping the water into the 75G tank for a water change. It worked great but limited the amount of water I could change while waiting for the water to come to temperature.

Fast forward a few years and the addition of more tanks, we replaced our standard hot water tank with a tank-less unit which made it so much easier to do water changes by just bypassing the softener and getting both hot and cold water for water changes.

Another option may be to try mixing the raw cold water with enough softened hot water to get close to aquarium temp and see what difference it makes in the hardness for the aquarium. You may be able to get away from storing the water and be able to fill the tank directly this way.


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## daviddj

Any ion exchange based water softener, incl kineticos, that use salt (some "salt free" systems use potassium chloride) as a regenerant add sodium to the water. Usually, IIRC for every mg/L of calcium removed you have 2-4 times that amount of sodium in the treated water. Water softened this way is not ideal for fish tanks, pot plants, people on salt restricted diets or making up baby bottles.


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## wryan

DJRansome said:


> I thought you said you could bypass the softener...


Sorry ... yes I can bypass it.

The amount of time it takes to bleed the cold water lines of residual soft water is probably a couple of minutes ... at the very, very most.

Hot water is a completely different story though ... the HWH is a fairly large tank, 60 gallon I think ... to dump the whole tank would take a bit (and be pretty wasteful) ... and unless I shut off the heater, closed the valves, and actually drained it out the bottom the water would still likely be a soft/hard mix to some degree.



DJRansome said:


> you would not taste the salt. It's not NaCl like table salt.


You're right - about not tasting it (and there actually being "salt" in the water) ... but I just did a little reading on this technology and how it actually works ... enlightening to say the least ... and blew away some of my assumptions and what I thought I "knew" ... :lol:

Actually, the substance used to release the minerals for regeneration can vary ... either sodium chloride, potassium chloride (salts) or even sodium hydroxide (aka lye) ... depending on the specific type of resins used in the softener.

The softener we have uses sodium chloride (regular salt) ... the particular product we use is "Dura Cube Red Out" which is made by Cargill and is meant to handle water with high iron levels, which we do have. It is 99.65% sodium chloride and 0.35% citric acid (which I assume is the "Red Out" portion)

What happens is that the regeneration substance (salt/lye) allows the minerals (typically calcium, magnesium, iron, and/or manganese) to adhere to the resin beads during normal operation.

The way it is does this though is that the resin beads "give up" the salt adhering to them, allowing the minerals to replace the salt ... of course, the resin beads are "giving up" the salt into the water that passes through the softener. It appears as though the greatest amount of actual salt usage occurs in the regeneration/backflush process ... and is dumped to the sewer ... or in our case, septic system.

Evidently the amount "given up" during normal operation and usage of household water is fairly small:

_"As the softener removes hardness minerals from the water, sodium or potassium will be given back proportionally. Shown below is the concentration of either sodium or potassium *that would be added to the existing raw water concentration* if 10 mg/L of hardness is removed.

Hardness Removed .... Na+ or K+ Added Sodium
10 mg/L as CaCO3 .... (Na+) added = 4.6 mg/L
10 mg/L as CaCO3 .... Potassium (K+) added = 7.6 mg/L"_

... but it's certainly not nothing ... and mebbe there could be an issue where salt could end up concentrating over time ? Dunno ...

The above info is taken from a factsheet from the New Hampshire Department of Environmental Services (circa 2009):

http://des.nh.gov/organization/commissioner/pip/factsheets/dwgb/documents/dwgb-2-12.pdf

Our softener is pretty old though ... probably better than 35 years. It does have demand regeneration though (based on the amount of water used) rather than strictly timed regen ... but doesn't regenerate until late at night even then.



DJRansome said:


> I would use water before the softener, even if it has to be all cold.


Probably the easiest and safest route (assuming proper temp when added to the tanks as you specify below)



DJRansome said:


> You want to change 50% (or more) weekly (and all at once) if possible.


Curious as to the thinking behind the "all at once" aspect ?

Is it to ensure that a full 50% of the tank water is actually getting replaced ... as opposed to something less than that ? (as a consequence of multiple pwc's of lesser amounts ?)



DJRansome said:


> Get a Python for siphoning water in/out and eliminate buckets.


Yeah ... the buckets are going away for sure ... regardless of what specific system replaces them.

A CAWC system would be the least hassle (in theory ... :roll ... but I need to do some more research into it. And it wouldn't meet your guidance about "all at once".

On the upside though, I would assume however it would be gradual enough that the in-tank heaters could handle the cold incoming water.



DJRansome said:


> You don't want to change temp by more than 1-2 degrees so if you need a storage tank that could work.


Yeah ... storage tank is a definite possibility.

I think I need a fish room ... :lol:


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## wryan

Deeda said:


> wryan, it sounds like you have a Kinetico softener but I'm not sure what the 'dissolvable' element might be so if you have the system regularly serviced, I'd ask for more specifics.


Yeah ... not sure about the brand of softener (it's unlabeled) but I'll give the folks who supply our salt a call tomorrow and find out exactly what the dissolvable element is.

Whatever it is, it sure seems to last a long, long time ... I don't know that I've replaced it in years.



Deeda said:


> I also have a similar setup for my well water (sans the dissolvable element) and I used to just bypass the Kinetico softener, fill a large Brute trash can (on a dolly) with cold water and then bring to temperature with a submersible aquarium heater before pumping the water into the 75G tank for a water change. It worked great but limited the amount of water I could change while waiting for the water to come to temperature.


Right ... kinda interrupts the workflow I'd guess ... OTOH, it breaks it up into smaller tasks so mebbe it's less daunting.

Guess it depends on how one looks at it ... and how many tanks one is dealing with ... 



Deeda said:


> Fast forward a few years and the addition of more tanks, we replaced our standard hot water tank with a tank-less unit which made it so much easier to do water changes by just bypassing the softener and getting both hot and cold water for water changes.


Yeah ... that certainly seems like it could be a good solution ... probably more efficient energy-wise too.



Deeda said:


> Another option may be to try mixing the raw cold water with enough softened hot water to get close to aquarium temp and see what difference it makes in the hardness for the aquarium. You may be able to get away from storing the water and be able to fill the tank directly this way.


Yup ... I need to do some testing of the water again, only both softened and unsoftened this time around.

Thanks for the input ... :thumb:


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## wryan

daviddj said:


> Any ion exchange based water softener, incl kineticos, that use salt (some "salt free" systems use potassium chloride) as a regenerant add sodium to the water. Usually, IIRC for every mg/L of calcium removed you have 2-4 times that amount of sodium in the treated water. Water softened this way *is not ideal* for fish tanks, pot plants, people on salt restricted diets or making up baby bottles.


So it would seem ... 

This has really gotten me curious as to how much salt is actually in the water after it's softened ... going to have to see if I can check it, or have it checked.


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## Deeda

I would hazard a guess that the amount of salt residue left in the tap water is minuscule compared to the amount used to regenerate the resin. You can also do a quick search of "sodium content of softened water" to get a general idea of what some possibilities are based on the hardness reading of your raw water. The more grains per gallon of hardness in the raw water, the more sodium in the softened water, assuming you are using sodium chloride.


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## wryan

Deeda said:


> I would hazard a guess that the amount of salt residue left in the tap water is minuscule compared to the amount used to regenerate the resin.


Dee,

That's my suspicion as well.



Deeda said:


> You can also do a quick search of "sodium content of softened water" to get a general idea of what some possibilities are based on the hardness reading of your raw water. The more grains per gallon of hardness in the raw water, the more sodium in the softened water, assuming you are using sodium chloride.


Yup ... :thumb:

IIRC, ours is pretty hard.

I'll pull a sample of the water before it goes through any of the filter/softening equipment here before I hit the rack tonight and test tomorrow when the light is good enough to read the test results.


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## wryan

These little guys are just a crack up to watch ... and they all seem to learn real quick.

Anytime I come over to the tank they all come to top front, waiting for chow.

Been feeding small amounts, usually 3 to 5 times a day. Mostly flake, sometimes the dust that was left from a jar of Omega Tubifex worms, and my home brew fish food. And it looks like they been working on the algae that was on the plants, as well as picking the sponge filters clean.

One of the Julies has staked out the right side of the tank as his domain - which apparently includes a substantial portion of the left side as well ... at least according to his definition :lol:

There's a little area in the back right corner, underneath the sponge filter, that he's taken ownership of as his cave.

Woe to be to anyone who ventures near ... he will go after any other fish in the tank, regardless of where they are ... but it's not constant or continual. Still, the other five fish generally stay to the left.

The two other Julies seem to hang together ... and occasionally the larger of the two will take a pick at the smaller one.

The Acei seem pretty peaceful towards the Julies and among themselves. One of the three has a darker coloration than the other two.

Added a few more rocks this evening to break up sight lines and built a little cave.

Cheap thrills ...


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## wryan

Parameters on the water straight from the pressure tank ... before it goes through any filtration or conditioning:

Carbonate Hardness - KH = 14 degrees/250ppm ? (14 drops)
General Hardness - GH = 28 degrees/501ppm ? (28 drops)

PH looks to be around 7.4 to 7.6 (tested with both the regular and high pH tests in the API test kit)

Didn't test for ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate ... _yet_ ...

(They all showed zero when I initially tested the softened water a year ago, when I starting setting up tanks)

Sooo ... since the general hardness is showing as high it as it is, mebbe just a little baking soda added to raise the pH up a bit ... and not the full Rift Buffer Recipe treatment ?


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## DJRansome

I would use the water before the softener. Why add even more chemicals to counteract bad chemicals? Why not chemical-free water?


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## wryan

DJRansome said:


> *I would use the water before the softener*. Why add even more chemicals to counteract bad chemicals? Why not chemical-free water?


That *is* the plan ... and the test parameters I just listed are for the water *before* the softener - IOW: straight from the well ... (aside from the comment I made about there being no ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates when I had tested softened water year ago when I started setting up the tanks)



DJRansome said:


> Why add even more chemicals to counteract bad chemicals? Why not chemical-free water?


LOL ... I'm not trying to "counteract bad chemicals" ... only trying to provide something that fairly closely (chemically) resembles the native environment of the species I'm trying to keep/breed.

In the case of the Acei, the water params out of the well are pretty close ... but ...

The species profile on this site lists the "native environment" water params for Julidochromis transcriptus (including variants) as:

pH: *8.6* - *9.1* (I'm at *7.4* - *7.6* out of the well, before the softener ... which is _slightly_ alkaline ... as compared to 8.6 - 9.1 which is _strongly_ alkaline) Given that the pH scale is _log_ ...

Water hardness: Very Hard (I'm about 30 points short of that, assuming that 530 is the demarcation between "hard" and "very hard")

Is any of that really important ?

Who knows ? :-? ... I sure don't ... I was however under the general impression, from what I have read, that it _might_ _be_.

This is the first time I've attempted to keep Rift Lake fish ... I guess though the fact that none of 'em have gone tiz up, after being in softened water for the last several days, could be taken as a "sign" ...

:lol:


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## DJRansome

If you have 7.6 out of the ground that would work. Your KH is fine. Don't add anything.


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## BC in SK

wryan said:


> Water hardness: Very Hard (I'm about 30 points short of that, assuming that 530 is the demarcation between "hard" and "very hard")


I'm not sure where you got the notion of 530 ppm as being some sort of demarcation point between hard and very hard ?? Any thing above 200 ppm could be considered very hard. Your water at 501ppm (dGH 28*) is extremely hard!
There are all kinds of recommendations for water parameters when it comes to rift lake cichlids. But that can be very different then an actual measurement taken from the actual lake. Your water has a GH of over 2 times that of Lake Tanganyika and 6-8 times harder the lake Malawi http://malawicichlids.com/mw01011.htm. Your water is already considerably harder then the water your fish come from....so can't see how there could be any benefit to your fish by trying to make it even harder!


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## wryan

BC in SK said:


> I'm not sure where you got the notion of 530 ppm as being some sort of demarcation point between hard and very hard ??


Water Hardness - The Krib



BC in SK said:


> Any thing above 200 ppm could be considered very hard.


Sure ... given that "very" is a fairly _subjective_ term and could be rather _arbitrary_.

You know: Just like "extremely" is ... 



BC in SK said:


> Your water at 501ppm (dGH 28*) is extremely hard!


I sure wouldn't argue with that characterization ... :lol:

:wink:



BC in SK said:


> There are all kinds of recommendations for water parameters when it comes to rift lake cichlids. But that can be very different then an actual measurement taken from the actual lake. Your water has a GH of over 2 times that of Lake Tanganyika and 6-8 times harder the lake Malawi http://malawicichlids.com/mw01011.htm. Your water is already considerably harder then the water your fish come from....so can't see how there could be any benefit to your fish by trying to make it even harder!


Thanks ... I appreciate your insights.

The suggestion that I initially offered as a possibility (to add baking soda, and skip the while enchilada as far Reef Buffer Solution) I thought was to raise the pH ... not to necessarily increase the hardness ... but I'm still pretty early on in this venture and (admittedly) do not have a full grasp of the inter-relationship between the various parameters (KH, DH, pH)


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## wryan

DJRansome said:


> If you have 7.6 out of the ground that would work. Your KH is fine. Don't add anything.


Got it ... will do (or, in this particular case: _not do_ ...  )

:thumb:


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## Aaron S

These fish are not as sensitive as some would like to let you believe. I mean you don't really want to be putting them in pH5 water, but the most important thing is that your hardness/pH is constant. That is most easily accomplished when you don't add anything - I agree with DJ to add nothing.


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## BC in SK

wryan said:


> BC in SK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure where you got the notion of 530 ppm as being some sort of demarcation point between hard and very hard ??
> 
> 
> 
> Water Hardness - The Krib
Click to expand...

OK, I see where you are getting that from.
Read that article before and for the most part I think it is pretty good. The only part I would really take exception to is the listing of lake Malawi as liquid rock. Not true at all. It's been measured for the purpose of science (my link provided is one example), so the actual measurements are not really very debatable. Ironically enough, using these groupings or classifications, Lake Malawi would actually be soft to very soft, not above hard and so called 'liquid rock' as the article states. This notion is based on popular recommendations over the years; not measurements taken from lake Malawi.
Another measure of over all hardness is electrical conductivity. Measurements taken in lake Malawi have an electrical conductivity of 200-240 microsiemens.... also an indicator that it is really not all that hard. Lake Tanganyika is much harder with an electrical conductivity of around 600 microsiemens.
Anyways, your water is plenty hard even for Tanganyikans. Don't really think you need to change it. Just makes water changes more difficult then they need to be.


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## wryan

Aaron S said:


> These fish are not as sensitive as some would like to let you believe.


Not entirely surprising ... 

IME, I've found that as a general matter, _Life_, can be pretty tolerant of a variety of conditions and adapt over time.

One point in regards to that, is the provenance of the fish in question: are they wild caught ... or have they been raised somewhere other than their native environment ?



Aaron S said:


> I mean you don't really want to be putting them in pH5 water, ...


Sure ... but where do you draw the line ?

Given that the pH scale is a logarithmic scale, a pH of 7.6 is *ten times* less alkaline than a pH of 8.6 ...



Aaron S said:


> *but the most important thing is that your hardness/pH is constant*.


... or at least doesn't involve large/dramatic changes in a short period of time ... :wink:



Aaron S said:


> *that is most easily accomplished when you don't add anything* - I agree with DJ to add nothing.


I'm all for less complication if there is no real/significant benefit ... leaves me to direct my efforts at other stuff.

Not having to add anything certainly reduces the opportunities for a Homer moment and the potential for doing something stupid that could have bad consequences.


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## wryan

BC in SK said:


> OK, I see where you are getting that from.
> Read that article before and for the most part I think it is pretty good.


BTW - thanks for the link on the Talling's work ... :thumb:

Actual data is always handy.



BC in SK said:


> The only part I would really take exception to is the listing of lake Malawi as liquid rock. Not true at all. It's been measured for the purpose of science (my link provided is one example), so the actual measurements are not really very debatable.


Right.

Yeah ... it was likely a careless generalization by the author (possibly while thinking of Lake Tanganyika, rather than Malawi), and was probably meant to be humorous ...



BC in SK said:


> Ironically enough, using these groupings or classifications, Lake Malawi would actually be soft to very soft, not above hard and so called 'liquid rock' as the article states.


Right.



BC in SK said:


> This notion is based on popular recommendations over the years; not measurements taken from lake Malawi.


Could very well be.



BC in SK said:


> Another measure of over all hardness is electrical conductivity. Measurements taken in lake Malawi have an electrical conductivity of 200-240 microsiemens.... also an indicator that it is really not all that hard. Lake Tanganyika is much harder with an electrical conductivity of around 600 microsiemens.


Good point ... :thumb:



BC in SK said:


> Anyways, your water is plenty hard even for Tanganyikans. Don't really think you need to change it. *Just makes water changes more difficult then they need to be*.


Makes sense to me ... easier is a good thing AFAIC.

Now, I just need to move them over from the softened water to the untreated water ... 10g tank ... probably do a gallon per pwc every other day for the next couple of weeks.


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## wryan

Picked up another 20L tank and three 10g's at the Petco dollar-a-gallon sale yesterday ... plan is to set up two open racks with two 10g's on the bottom and a 20L on the top in the office/computer room ... which will become, de facto, the "Tanganykian Room" ... :lol:

Also grabbed about 70 lbs of larger red volcanic rock (9 or 10 pieces roughly football sized) from the local landscape place and scored some 1/8 and 1/4" clear acrylic from a local plastic place to fab up some covers for the tanks.

Mebbe start cutting the wood for the racks/stands today ... if I can get to it.


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## DJRansome

Acrylic will warp, I always end up buying glass covers at Petco (the glass places by me charge more).


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## wryan

DJRansome said:


> Acrylic will warp, ...


Interesting ... wonder why that is ?

Do they seem to consistently warp in a particular direction (length or width) ... like sagging into the tank, across the short dimension ?

Or is it just a general, randomized distortion ?

If it's the former, I wonder if doing a "eurobrace" sorta thing on it with some of the scrap would eliminate or minimize the problem.

My primary interest was to stop evaporation loss.



DJRansome said:


> I always end up buying glass covers at Petco (the glass places by me charge more).


I got two sheets: 16 3/4 x 72 x 1/8 and 15 x 72 x 1/4 ... figured I'd use the 1/8 material for the smaller 10g tanks, where it's spanning less distance.

It was free, so it's kind of hard to beat the price ...


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## Deeda

I went the 1/4" acrylic lid method and find it sags downward in the middle after a couple days and flipping it over worked for a couple days before sagging again. I only use it for emergencies when cleaning my glass lids.

My local glass company cut some lids for me to sizes for some tanks that I wanted to use as sliding glass tops and I'm generally happy with them. It was cheaper than buying the glass canopies online.

I am also trying double wall polycarbonate (greenhouse panels) on my 10G tanks and so far I like them after 8 months of use. I had to order the material online since I couldn't find it locally and it's more expensive than glass but much more lightweight.


----------



## wryan

Deeda said:


> I went the 1/4" acrylic lid method and find it sags downward in the middle after a couple days and flipping it over worked for a couple days before sagging again. I only use it for emergencies when cleaning my glass lids.


On one axis only ... or both ? (length-wise and width/depth-wise)

Is this on 10g tanks ?



Deeda said:


> My local glass company cut some lids for me to sizes for some tanks that I wanted to use as sliding glass tops and I'm generally happy with them.


What thickness of glass did they use ?

What size tanks ?



Deeda said:


> It was cheaper than buying the glass canopies online.


I picked up a Aqueon hinged glass lid for the first 20L online last year at a pretty decent price (was on sale)

When I got it I was very unhappy to find that it didn't completely cover the top of the tank ... there was a gap. I assumed that perhaps the incorrect plastic piece for the rear had been included when it was packaged and called Aqueon Customer Service and was told that they changed something in their tank sizing and/or the plastic piece a number of years previous and that the lids no longer completely covered the the top opening of the tanks.

The young CS lady I spoke with didn't feel that there was any real solution she could offer, beyond perhaps a refund or returning the item to where I bought it.

One thing I'm going to with that acrylic is cut a piece to replace the plastic piece on the Aqueon top that''s too short.



Deeda said:


> I am also trying double wall polycarbonate (greenhouse panels) on my 10G tanks and so far I like them after 8 months of use. I had to order the material online since I couldn't find it locally and it's more expensive than glass but much more lightweight.


Those look interesting ... :thumb:


----------



## wryan

BTW - the LFS uses some sort of plastic tops on their 10g tanks that just lift off ... kinda shaped like this:
__.............__
..l_________l


----------



## Deeda

The tank I had the acrylic bow on is 24"L x 18" wide and the acrylic bowed on the long axis.

All my glass lids are double strength glass and the edges are swiped/seamed which means the edges are smoothed over to avoid cutting myself.

The 24"L x 18"W tanks are 1/8" thick two piece lids and I used silicone to make a DIY hinge so I can open the smaller front panel just like a store bought one. I did also buy the plastic back strips online so I can cut out spaces for airlines and heater cords.

The 33L's (48"L x 12"W with center brace) and 40B's (36"L X 18"W no brace) tanks are the ones I made sliding glass tops (3/16" thick glass) for based on this design Sliding Glass Tops. The long lids on the 40B's are a pain to clean since they are so long.


----------



## wryan

Deeda said:


> The tank I had the acrylic bow on is 24"L x 18" wide and the acrylic bowed on the long axis.


So ... (sorry about this, just trying to make sure that I'm understanding you correctly) ... the "u" of the bow went from the front to the rear ... and if you looked at the tank from the side, you would be looking at the "u" (of the bow) face on ?



Deeda said:


> All my glass lids are double strength glass and the edges are swiped/seamed which means the edges are smoothed over to avoid cutting myself.


I had the edges polished and ground on the piece I got for the center brace to repair the old 55 ...

I might try a flap disc in an angle grinder on a scrap piece of glass and see how that works as far as polishing the edges.



Deeda said:


> The 24"L x 18"W tanks are 1/8" thick two piece lids *and I used silicone to make a DIY hinge* so I can open the smaller front panel just like a store bought one.


Resourceful ... :thumb:

Tip a friend told me: If you need to a smooth surface to lay the silicone on, that the silicone won't adhere to, then: wax paper ....



Deeda said:


> I did also buy the plastic back strips online so I can cut out spaces for airlines and heater cords.


Right.



Deeda said:


> The 33L's (48"L x 12"W with center brace) and 40B's (36"L X 18"W no brace) tanks are the ones I made sliding glass tops (3/16" thick glass) for based on this design Sliding Glass Tops.


Thanks ... appreciate the link.

Helped a friend set up his wife's daycare this summer ... the kitchen and utility room had to have FRP installed ... so I'm familiar with the corner channel.



Deeda said:


> The long lids on the 40B's are a pain to clean since they are so long.


I can imagine ... just handling the glass lid for the 20L makes me a little nervous.

Thanks again.


----------



## wryan

The red lava rock I picked up the other day at the landscape place.










Around 72 lbs of it ... it's not the ideal stuff, as it seems to have less pores in it than the stuff I could find 30 years ago ... but the price was right.

Some of it had moss growing on it, figured I probably ought to clean/sterilize it before sticking it in a tank ... so I started to boil it in a large aluminum pot we use for canning.

Unfortunately, most of the pieces are so large that they won't fit ... so I'll need to use the kettle for turkey fryer.


----------



## wryan

But not before it passes a very through going over by Inspector No. 7 to ensure all that old peanut oil has been removed ... :lol:


----------



## Deeda

The 24" side of the tank is the front face and the acrylic bowed in the middle, slightly coming off the tank trim on the left and right sides of the tank.

You should be able to use some sandpaper to sand the edges, I've used that method on glass before. Definitely use heavy gloves when working and I also used a dust mask.

I don't think there is a need to sterilize or boil the lava rock, usually a good strong spray of water is sufficient to dislodge any dirt or debris, unless of course the rock doesn't sink.

I also have a couple 'inspectors' like yours that need to check everything new that comes in the house. Nice pic!! If you haven't already found out, porous rock like yours is great for attracting cat hair and eventually your filters will pick up any that get in the tank. :lol:


----------



## wryan

Deeda said:


> The 24" side of the tank is the front face and the acrylic bowed in the middle, slightly coming off the tank trim on the left and right sides of the tank.


Got it now ... :thumb:



Deeda said:


> You should be able to use some sandpaper to sand the edges, I've used that method on glass before. Definitely use heavy gloves when working and I also used a dust mask.


Yup, will do.



Deeda said:


> I don't think there is a need to sterilize or boil the lava rock, usually a good strong spray of water is sufficient to dislodge any dirt or debris, unless of course the rock doesn't sink.


Yeah ... unfortunately this lava rock has less pores than the stuff I got 30 years ago ... it's also a good bit more crumbly. Also not as buoyant ... sinks immediately.

I'm boiling it (and rinsing it) very thoroughly because it was kept outside on pallets at the landscape place (huge operation) near their truck scales ... so probably a lot of dust (in addition to the moss) ... there are also some white deposits ... which I suspect may be rock salt and/or whatever is used to deice their lot (and probably the local roads)



Deeda said:


> I also have a couple 'inspectors' like yours that need to check everything new that comes in the house. Nice pic!!


Thanks ... that one is into everything.

She's a complete hoot ... but also a bit of a pain.



Deeda said:


> If you haven't already found out, porous rock like yours is great for attracting cat hair and eventually your filters will pick up any that get in the tank. :lol:


Hehehe ... _yeah_ ... cat hair is a never-ending battle here ...

These rocks will get dried and then bagged in plastic bags until used.

A couple of years ago we ran into a real mystery. These large (thin) sheets (6" x 6" to 12" or more long) of fibrous material started randomly appearing on our living room floor. They looked like some material out or off of a piece of furniture ... stuffing out of cushions, that covering that's typically used on the bottom of a sofa or love seat.

We thought maybe we had some stealth colony of mice tearing our furniture apart surreptitiously or something while we slept. Turned over all the furniture to check the covering on the bottoms, pulled all of it out and checked the backs that were up against walls ... then we went through the rooms and I tried to figure out what the cats might tearing up and hauling into the living room ... nada ...

Then one day I happened to be there when one appeared.

The ceiling fan had been off, so when I came into the room I turned it on ...

It was a combo of cat hair and dust that was settling on the fan blades and would come flying off at random times, always when no one was around or watching ... :lol:


----------



## Deeda

I've experience the exact same thing with the ceiling fan issues. I have hardwood floors upstairs and occasionally see giant dust/hair bunnies blowing across the floor


----------



## wryan

Deeda said:


> I've experience the exact same thing with the ceiling fan issues. I have hardwood floors upstairs and occasionally see giant dust/hair bunnies blowing across the floor


Too funny ... 

We never noticed anything amiss ... until we got inside cats and pulled the carpet in the living room up.


----------



## wryan

Did the first pwc on this tank tonight (about 2 1/2 gallons on a 10 gallon tank) and vacuumed the gravel to drain the water. One gallon was straight from the well, before the softener/filtration gear. Only -1 degree temp difference in tank water after the pwc.

There was essentially nothing that I could see coming up in the vac.

I take that to mean that:

1. I'm probably not overfeeding them, or ...

2. These little guys are good about cleaning up whatever hits the floor.

Or possibly a combination of the two.

The one Julie is still trying to "rule the roost" ... she'll chase after the other Julies and the Acei's ... but the other Julies are the only ones I've seen her drive up into the corners.

It's funny though ... because it doesn't seem like once she's pushed one (or both) up there that the aggression continues ... and she'll will tolerate them in close proximity (less than 1") without going after them on the left side (mostly) and the middle (sometimes) of the tank.

There's some erect finnage going on at times (by multiple parties), as well as some shimmying and shaking (usually by the smallest of the three, who I take to possibly be a male)

Got all the lava rocks boiled, rinsed, and bagged except for one which was too large to fit in the aluminum pot. Hope to paint the backs of tanks tomorrow and start cutting the wood for the stands ... along with rehoming about 6 fish out of the 55g DT, in preparation for setting it up as a Malawi tank.


----------



## DJRansome

You should consider removing the julidochromis that are being driven up to the surface...this is behavior that leads to killing the rejected individual. When will they be in the larger tanks?


----------



## wryan

DJRansome said:


> You should consider removing the julidochromis that are being driven up to the surface...this is behavior that leads to killing the rejected individual.


I'm willing to consider it ... although due to my lack of familiarity I'm not entirely sure it's all that vicious.

The individuals that are chased into the corners do not remain there for any length of time ... typically it's less than 15 to 30 seconds.

So I'll defer to the informed judgement of those here, including you of course.



DJRansome said:


> When will they be in the larger tanks?


The 20L's (intended to be their eventual home) or even another 10g are probably at least 5 to 7 days out. I have a couple of extra sponge filters running in the 55g and it's going to take a little bit before they are populated with beneficial bacteria.

Assuming I can catch the six or so fish out of the 55g that I intend to (eventually) set up as a mbuna tank, I could move the two outcast Julie's (and the acei as well) to the 55 tomorrow.

At that point there should be no remaining fish in there that would be a threat to them.


----------



## wryan

Here's a video showing an example of the behavior:


----------



## wryan

Ok, I tried the youtube button in the board software with a straight link to the video and with embed code ... neither seems to work.

What do I have to do get the board software to recognize it as a valid YouTube video ... :roll:


----------



## wryan

Read the instructions for posting YouTube videos I guess ... :lol:


----------



## DJRansome

It's hard to get them out in time once you notice the behavior.


----------



## RayMontana

wouldnt more hiding places help? That poor fish has nowhere to get away from the one pestering it. I know that wont solve the problem but might keep the guy from being under constant harassment. It might keep him around long enough to be able to have a chance to catch him.
Where as now you have to take one of them out now. Pretty much right now.I would.


----------



## wryan

DJRansome said:


> It's hard to get them out in time once you notice the behavior.


IOW: It can go south in a hurry ?


----------



## wryan

Ray,

That's the thing though - the harassment isn't constant.

But it is ongoing.

Unfortunately I was not able get the other fish in the 55g rehomed today ... hopefully tomorrow.

As far as more hiding places go, that's good point ... i'm sure it couldn't hurt.


----------



## wryan

Got some info on the dissolvable cartridge before the softener that is used to treat mineral build up inside the pipes.

Description from the mfg's website:



> Inhibits lime scaling
> Sequesters iron and manganese to reduce staining
> Slow dissolving crystals are ideal for intermitten flow rates in household use
> Cartridge is compatible with most makes of filter housings.
> Crystals are compatible with all makes of phosphate cartridges.
> Poly Guard Crystals contain 100% slowly soluble food grade phosphate.
> Meets ANSI/NSF standard 60/61 for drinking water application.


----------



## Deeda

Thanks for the above info. Now I'm very curious how much and what type of iron you have in your well water?

I wanted to add that even though I have a water softener for my well water, figuring out what I needed for my particular treatment needs was left up to a professional. It was tested at 18 GPG (322 PPM) hardness with 2PPM of clear iron.

I did a bit more online reading and found interesting material about the Resin Life and keeping it clean which may explain your need for the 'dissolvable' cartridge.

It is also possible that since your unit is at least 35 years old, the resin isn't working the way it is supposed to either due to age, fouling or possibly an undersized unit. A friend was complaining about iron stains in all her fixtures and odd tasting water and once she had a pro come out, they found her existing system was undersized (and old) and installed a new & larger unit and it eliminated her problems. She also has high iron content and didn't require any other special media for her set up.

Just a couple thoughts to ponder in the wonderful world of private well water treatment and ownership. I'm dreading the day when my well pump dies in the middle of a water change day.


----------



## wryan

Deeda said:


> Thanks for the above info.


My pleasure ... I posted in the hope that it might be of use to others who may interested or dealing with similar issues.



Deeda said:


> Now I'm very curious how much and what type of iron you have in your well water?


No idea really ... other than this:

I know that when I've pulled the iron/sediment filter to replace/clean the cartridge, I've seen the filter medium - which is very similar to "Micron Polishing Cartridge" used in a Marineland Magnum filter - at different times caked/covered in either 1. rust-colored sediment, or 2. what I presume to be "iron bacteria" ... which is usually pretty dark ... almost black.

The iron bacteria is kinda similar to the slime inside a fish tank ... other than it appears dark (which might just be the underlying iron that it's "digesting")

I usually take the used filter cartridge and soak it in a solution of "Iron Out" - which renders the filter media sparkling white again - then flush it with softened tap water and let it dry for them next time I need to swap out a cartridge.


----------



## Deeda

My 20" sediment filter looks the same as yours when dirty and I even find small black particles in the bottom of the housing when I change the filter and clean the housing. I actually took a sample on the black 'stuff' to work a few years ago and had it analyzed in their lab. No surprise, it was iron!!!

I clean my used cartridges the same way. I actually made a filter cleaner holder out of 4" PVC pipe, solvent welded a flat bottom cap on it and have a loose cap for the lid. I mix the Iron Out solution with water and soak the element until clean. I even made a gadget from 1/2" PVC pipe and a Tee fitting so I can lower and lift element out of the solution and even swish it around without getting the solution on my hands.


----------



## wryan

Deeda said:


> My 20" sediment filter looks the same as yours when dirty and I even find small black particles in the bottom of the housing when I change the filter and clean the housing.


Yup ... same here on the black particles on the bottom of the housing.



Deeda said:


> I actually took a sample on the black 'stuff' to work a few years ago and had it analyzed in their lab. No surprise, it was iron!!!


Interesting ...

I thought the rust-colored stuff here was clearly iron ... but I was really wondering about the black stuff ...

Didn't figure it could be too bad, given that we've been drinking the water now for some 40+ years ... 



Deeda said:


> I clean my used cartridges the same way. I actually made a filter cleaner holder out of 4" PVC pipe, solvent welded a flat bottom cap on it and have a loose cap for the lid. I mix the Iron Out solution with water and soak the element until clean. I even made a gadget from 1/2" PVC pipe and a Tee fitting so I can lower and lift element out of the solution and even swish it around without getting the solution on my hands.


Excellent ... :thumb:

=D>

I really need to fab up something like that for a cleaning container for the Micron Filter carts for the Magnums ... _so I can stop catching grief for having appropriated various containers to use from the kitchen_ ... :lol:

Might have to use larger pipe though for the whole house filter though ...


----------



## wryan

Got the four fish rehomed to the fish store out of the 55g ... picked up another 5 P. acei which are acclimating in their bags in the 55g.

Will move the three acei in 10g over to the 55 here in a bit ...

I think rather than moving the two picked on Julies out of the 10g, I'm going to move the problem child over to the 55 ... where she'll have to deal with more fish ... and where she'll have a lot more real estate to stake out her claim.


----------



## DJRansome

Julidochromis are supposed to form a pair and reject everyone else. So you should expect what is happening to happen. Why not move the reject pair that is to their permanent 20G and see if they will bond? If not you may need to add back the bossy one and another 3 juveniles to provide lots of choices.


----------



## wryan

DJRansome said:


> Julidochromis are supposed to form a pair and reject everyone else. So you should expect what is happening to happen.


Yup ... I'm not surprised by what is happening at all.

What I lack however, is an "experienced eye" (with this particular species) to know exactly what it is I'm seeing ... my only real experience with breeding fish is with Green Terror's ... and from what I can remember, during their courtship, things got kinda frisky ... to say the least.

IOW: There seems to be a mix of behavior ... not all of which I take to be necessarily of ill-intent.

Tonight, for example, after I moved the acei to the 55g, the "aggressive" Julie laid down on her side in a shallow crevice between two rocks, while one of the other two (the larger one for whatever that's worth) sided up to her, heads to tails, and there was what I took to be some displaying (possibly for each other's benefit), going on by both fish. The one that has been more aggressive, after 30 seconds or a minute or so, came out and they swam around each other ... with no particularly aggressive behavior noted on the part of either.

FWIW, the tank seems a little more relaxed since I moved the acei's ... who always seemed to be swimming and in motion. The Julies seem far more laid back ... generally they just sort of hover and float around the tank ... much less active.

Unless they are going after something of course ... then they're like little torpedos ... :lol:

Dunno ... maybe having the acei's in there was acting as a trigger for aggressive behavior ... too much commotion ? Dunno ...



DJRansome said:


> Why not move the reject pair that is to their permanent 20G and see if they will bond?


20g tanks really are not ready yet ...

I'm going to keep a close eye on things and hopefully avert any genocides ... but if someone does die, it will be on me (having been forewarned :wink



DJRansome said:


> If not you may need to add back the bossy one and another 3 juveniles to provide lots of choices.


I think there were two Julies remaining tonight when I was at the LFS ... and both were a good bit smaller than the ones I have.

I almost took them ... but decided to hold off, due to their size - and knowing my own tendency to get my cart before my horse.

BTW ... from the looks of it, the acei's, after being moved to the 55g, apparently thought they had been invited to a smorgasbord ... 

It's a planted tank, with a good bit of algae and who-knows-what-else living in there ... they looked like they were having an absolute feast ... :lol:


----------



## Deeda

I've had a couple different Julidochromis (J. marlieri 'gombe', J.dickfeldi 'Livua', and J. regani) species but not the J. transcriptus and bought them as juveniles at or under an inch long. I've also never kept them in a 10G mostly because I'm not a real fan of that size tank.

I did look at your 10G tank video and agree with the comment that you need more cover for the fish, whether that be stacked rocks as high as possible, fake or real plants that can offer hiding spots both high, low or floating or even small pots or pieces of PVC pipe or fittings.

The tanks (24"L x 18"W x 15"H) I have kept Julies in have offered the rocks and plants method and I have been able to keep 6 adults in and they've spawned multiple times so it works for me but may not work for others. I don't know if I just got lucky with the male:female ratio or if there was sufficient cover to reduce the visible aggression. However, the J. regani were moved to a 125G at 2" in length and had enough room to grow to almost 100 strong in 2 years so they don't fall in the smaller adult size group!


----------



## wryan

Dee,

Thanks for the additional info.



Deeda said:


> I've had a couple different Julidochromis (J. marlieri 'gombe', J.dickfeldi 'Livua', and J. regani) species but not the J. transcriptus and bought them as juveniles at or under an inch long.


IC.



Deeda said:


> I've also never kept them in a 10G mostly because I'm not a real fan of that size tank.


I'm not really not either ... although I just bought another three that size.

Mainly intended to use them for other purposes (hospital tank, growing food, etc.)

It's just a temporary solution as far as these guys go.



Deeda said:


> I did look at your 10G tank video and agree with the comment that you need more cover for the fish, whether that be stacked rocks as high as possible, fake or real plants that can offer hiding spots both high, low or floating or even small pots or pieces of PVC pipe or fittings.


Right, point taken.

Since I had to pull all the large rocks out of the 55g yesterday to catch the fish that I was rehoming, there are a bunch of smaller rocks which are a more appropriate size for the 10g tank ... so I'll pull those and start building more structure in the 10g. Will also drill a small clay pot today and add that to the tank as well.

Finally there's a number of java fern floating around in there which I will pull and superglue to rocks, so I can spread it out around the tank (with it free-floating, it kinda tends to collect in one spot around the filter due to the currents)



Deeda said:


> The tanks (24"L x 18"W x 15"H) I have kept Julies in have offered the rocks and plants method and I have been able to keep 6 adults in and they've spawned multiple times so it works for me but may not work for others. I don't know if I just got lucky with the male:female ratio or if there was sufficient cover to reduce the visible aggression.


Ran across an article yesterday on cichlidae.com on an experiment done in Japan back in '09 on "cooperative polyandry" in J. transcriptus which I'm still in the process of reading/digesting ... interesting stuff:

"Living on the wedge: female control of paternity in a cooperatively polyandrous cichlid - Proceedings of the Royal Society of London B: Biological Sciences

Dunno if that behavior extends beyond _transcriptus_, but I'd guess it's certainly possible (mebbe even likely :-? ) ... mebbe it could, at least to come extent, account for your "luck" ... :wink:



Deeda said:


> However, the J. regani were moved to a 125G at 2" in length and had enough room to grow to almost 100 strong in 2 years so they don't fall in the smaller adult size group!


Interesting ... single species in that tank ?


----------



## Deeda

wryan said:


> Deeda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've also never kept them in a 10G mostly because I'm not a real fan of that size tank.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not really not either ... although I just bought another three that size.
> 
> Mainly intended to use them for other purposes (hospital tank, growing food, etc.)
> 
> It's just a temporary solution as far as these guys go.
Click to expand...

I understand that, I do have four 10G tanks set up & cycled as either emergency, hospital or fish I buy at auction that I don't really want afterwards. 



wryan said:


> Deeda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did look at your 10G tank video and agree with the comment that you need more cover for the fish, whether that be stacked rocks as high as possible, fake or real plants that can offer hiding spots both high, low or floating or even small pots or pieces of PVC pipe or fittings.
> 
> 
> 
> Right, point taken.
> 
> Since I had to pull all the large rocks out of the 55g yesterday to catch the fish that I was rehoming, there are a bunch of smaller rocks which are a more appropriate size for the 10g tank ... so I'll pull those and start building more structure in the 10g. Will also drill a small clay pot today and add that to the tank as well.
> 
> Finally there's a number of java fern floating around in there which I will pull and superglue to rocks, so I can spread it out around the tank (with it free-floating, it kinda tends to collect in one spot around the filter due to the currents).
Click to expand...

Sounds good. You can also use black thread to tie the java fern to a rock or even leave the thread long enough so the plant can float higher in the tank and not get buffeted around by the current.



wryan said:


> Deeda said:
> 
> 
> 
> The tanks (24"L x 18"W x 15"H) I have kept Julies in have offered the rocks and plants method and I have been able to keep 6 adults in and they've spawned multiple times so it works for me but may not work for others. I don't know if I just got lucky with the male:female ratio or if there was sufficient cover to reduce the visible aggression.
> 
> 
> 
> Ran across an article yesterday on cichlidae.com on an experiment done in Japan back in '09 on "cooperative polyandry" in J. transcriptus which I'm still in the process of reading/digesting ... interesting stuff:
> 
> "Living on the wedge: female control of paternity in a cooperatively polyandrous cichlid - Proceedings of the Royal Society of London B: Biological Sciences
> 
> Dunno if that behavior extends beyond _transcriptus_, but I'd guess it's certainly possible (mebbe even likely :-? ) ... mebbe it could, at least to come extent, account for your "luck" ... :wink:
Click to expand...

I think I remember reading that article, I'll have to take a look at it again.



wryan said:


> Deeda said:
> 
> 
> 
> However, the J. regani were moved to a 125G at 2" in length and had enough room to grow to almost 100 strong in 2 years so they don't fall in the smaller adult size group!
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting ... single species in that tank ?
Click to expand...

No, I also had Black calvus, Cyprichromis leptosoma 'Utinta', Neolamprologus pulcher 'daffodil' and a dozen Synodontis lucipinnis though they were bought as 'petricola'. I just loved this tank set up and unfortunately had to take it down to a slow leak. It was a resealed tank and I must have done a poor job on the repair though it was set up for almost 2 years.


----------



## wryan

Got a little more structure added, made 3 tunnels/caves, and got 6 of the larger java ferns attached to rocks:


----------



## wryan

Couple of closer ups of the inhabitants, sold supposedly as transcriptus:


----------



## wryan

Deeda said:


> I understand that, I do have four 10G tanks set up & cycled as either emergency, hospital or fish I buy at auction that I don't really want afterwards.


 



Deeda said:


> Sounds good. You can also use black thread to tie the java fern to a rock *or even leave the thread long enough so the plant can float higher in the tank and not get buffeted around by the current*.


Great idea ... thanks. :thumb:

What I've noticed was that the two "outcasts" had mostly been relegated to the top 1/3 of the tank, on the left side. They now appear to be moving lower ... although the top dog is regularly patrolling all the floor.

Probably too soon to tell for sure, but with the added structure it seems to have calmed things down a little bit.

Didn't get the flowerpot drilled ... too cold and nasty to walk up to the shop to get a masonry bit ... mebbe tomorrow ... :lol:



Deeda said:


> I think I remember reading that article, I'll have to take a look at it again.


From a breeder's perspective, I would think it could be interesting to try it as a technique ... three sources, with two resulting lines ...



Deeda said:


> No, I also had Black calvus, Cyprichromis leptosoma 'Utinta', Neolamprologus pulcher 'daffodil' and a dozen Synodontis lucipinnis though they were bought as 'petricola'.


Beautiful fish all ...

I've been looking at the Black calvus myself - very sharp - as I consider how I would setup and stock a large Tang tank.



Deeda said:


> I just loved this tank set up ...


I can imagine.



Deeda said:


> and unfortunately had to take it down to a slow leak. It was a resealed tank and I must have done a poor job on the repair though it was set up for almost 2 years.


Sorry to hear that ...

I may have mentioned it before, but there's a product for silicone removal that Ace Hardware carries which is made by McKanica ... comes in a tube, kinda like toothpaste.

Seems to work pretty well for getting that last little bit that can be hard to remove ... just don't get it on any silicone you don't want compromised.


----------



## wryan

Deeda said:


> ... Another option may be to try mixing the raw cold water with enough softened hot water to get close to aquarium temp and see what difference it makes in the hardness for the aquarium. You may be able to get away from storing the water and be able to fill the tank directly this way.


Did a little more research into this tonight ... but I still need to test/retest DH/KH/ph on both treated (softened) and untreated water tomorrow and see what the numbers are ... but I'm guessing that using around 3 to 1 ratio, it will fall within a reasonable range.

Checking at the kitchen faucet I find that the cold water is around 55F and the hot water is around 135F. Doing a little math using a 3 to 1 ratio, it looks like that would make the resultant mix about 75F. So that's roughly the ratio I'll be dealing with ... unless I jack up the temp on the water heater even further.

With the water heater set to 150F, the ratio would to 4 to 1 and yield a mix temp of 74F.

The actual resultant mix temps are somewhat irrelevant because what I plan on doing is installing a thermostatic mixing valve, which I can set to a particular temperature ... mainly just ran the numbers to get an idea of the ratios of cold (hard, untreated) water to hot (filtered and softened) water.


----------



## wryan

The two outcasts were spotted this morning cruising the bottom of the tank into "The Forbidden Zone" ... and, although they were observed, they were not attacked or otherwise molested ... 

Considering the idea of "spreading the aggression" and providing multiple distractions, I'm going to head over to the LFS and pick up the last two Julies they have left.

Should provide some motivation to get the rest of the tanks set up and running.


----------



## Deeda

Thanks for all the updates, nice to hear the redecorating has helped! Also the tip on the silicone removal product though my concern would be that it might compromise the seals between the glass panels when used to remove the secondary seal that is normally removed during a reseal project.

Before we switched to the house tank-less water heater, we considered buying a RV style unit so I'm not sure if that might be an option to consider instead of mixing cold raw and hot soft water.


----------



## wryan

Deeda said:


> Thanks for all the updates, nice to hear the redecorating has helped!


My pleasure.

(I do have to admit however that just chronicling the adventure has it's own appeal, in and of itself ... )



Deeda said:


> Also the tip on the silicone removal product though my concern would be that it might compromise the seals between the glass panels when used to remove the secondary seal that is normally removed during a reseal project.


A reasonable concern I'm sure.



Deeda said:


> Before we switched to the house tank-less water heater, we considered buying a RV style unit so I'm not sure if that might be an option to consider instead of mixing cold raw and hot soft water.


It could be a possibility ... thanks.


----------



## wryan

So I stopped by the LFS to pick up the two additional Julies and unfortunately only came away with one ... evidently at some point during the process of netting them the second one decided to suicide itself and must have launched out of the tank ... couldn't be found anywhere.

The only good that came out of it was that while I was waiting for that drama to subside, I happened to notice a tank with about a dozen or so Melanochromis auratus that I have been overlooking somehow for the last couple of months.

Took three of middle-sized individuals ... they look to be roughly about 1 1/2 inches ...


----------



## wryan

Results on water retests:

Untreated hard water:
KH = dKH 11, ppm KH 196.9 (11 drops)
GH = dKH 20, ppm GH 358 (20 drops)
pH = 7.4 - 7.6

These were done just now on water drawn late last night, so it's been sitting in a sealed milk jug for something less than 24 hours.

On the pH, it's kinda hard to tell on the low pH test, because of the low color saturation on the test results ... but I'd lean with it being more bluish than greenish (more towards 7.6)

On the high pH test I'd say it's looks to be between 7.4 and 7.6.

Treated soft water:
KH = dKH 10, ppm KH 179 (10 drops)
GH = dKH 5, ppm GH 89.5 (5 drops ?)
pH - not tested

The only thing I can say about the treated/softened water test results is that the KH test results are for sure - the color saturation of the test results leave no doubt in my mind.

The GH test results less so ... the color saturation on the GH is pretty low ... it looked as though the color started to change at around 3 drops ... but until there were 5 drops added, it didn't appear to have a bluish tint (more greenish)

I'm not real sure what to make out of the KH being as high as it is, in both the untreated/hard and treated/soft water.

All hardness tests were done twice on both treated and untreated water.


----------



## wryan

wryan said:


> ... I'm not real sure what to make out of the KH being as high as it is, in both the untreated/hard and treated/soft water.


Although, IIRC, this might be good ... in that it lessens the tendency of the pH to swing ??


----------



## DJRansome

I would not use softened water regardless of the test results.


----------



## wryan

DJRansome said:


> I would not use softened water regardless of the test results.


In terms of the Rift Lake fish, wasn't really planning to ... beyond maybe using it maybe a 1 to 4 ratio, to temper the (cold, hard) water straight from the well up to an acceptable temperature.

Just mainly included the softened/treated water numbers for comparison/completeness/comment.


----------



## wryan

wryan said:


> Results on water retests:
> 
> ...
> 
> Treated soft water:
> KH = dKH 10, ppm KH 179 (10 drops)
> GH = dKH 5, ppm GH 89.5 (5 drops ?)
> *pH - not tested*
> 
> ...


Thinking back on it, when I did test the softened water within the last year it was also in that 7.4 - 7.6 range.


----------



## wryan

Got two coats of black put on the backs of the two 20L's and the three 10g's ... hopefully one more coat will do it.

This time I used Rustoleum "Painter's Touch" flat black latex paint ... which advises using a brush rather than a roller. Wasn't impressed with the brush-on the first coat, so I went with a small 3" roller on the second coat and it looked a lot better than the first.

Probably didn't wait quite as long as I should have to apply the second coat tho, as there appeared to be some bubbling where the first coat may not have fully dried after initially applying the second coat. Interestingly, as the second coat dried, the bubbling seemed to go away ... although I need to inspect the back closely to be certain. Be interesting to see how it holds up long term.

I didn't bother masking the frames, as I figured it was latex and it should be pretty easy to scrape off any excess with a credit card.

When did the 55g last year I sprayed it, using Rustoleum "Flexi-Dip" - a pliable plastic/rubberized paint that is supposedly easy to remove ... just peels off. That appears to have held up well ... but I didn't really care for having to mask it off to spray it, all the overspray in the air, etc. ... and if I were to use that again I'd be inclined to just roll it on.


----------



## wryan

Also did some needed maintenance on the 55g since it's been up and running for year now. It's a planted tank (low-tech) and I had tried a number of different plants in it, some of which made it and others which didn't.

Anubias, Java fern, and Java moss all did well ... in fact, the Java moss (free-floating) did a little too well ... to the point that it was taking over the top of the tank and cutting the light on two sides. So I pulled most of that about a month ago and gave about half of it away to a neighbor up the street. If what I have here survives, it might get used in 10g's for cherry shrimp or fry, or get used in a sump to consume nitrates.

Also trimmed back the roots of the Java ferns, and pruned off some more sprigs to propagate on other bare rocks and fill in holes on existing ones.

There's an Amazon Sword in there that was doing really great after I got it initially ... but it's taken a beating, having been chewed on by various inhabitants. Still, it's not gone yet ... I failed the last time I took a stab at trying to pull it, due to the amount of roots down in the gravel. Probably need to get that out of there, prune it, and find a place to stick it where it won't get chewed up so bad.

Was a good amount of dead/decaying plant material along the back of the tank, trapped in smaller lava rocks, which I stirred up and let the filters remove overnight. Still need to vac the gravel there before putting the rock work and aquascaping such as it is back together.


----------



## wryan

Help me out here:

Have five A. stuartgranti F2 "Ngara Flametails" 1 1/4" juvies coming tomorrow which will go in the 55g for the time being. So with ...

Eight P. acei - 1 1/2" - 1 3/4"

Five A. stuartgranti - 1 1/4"

Three M. auratus - 1 1/4" (probably will pick up more)

I'm guessing that I'm going to need some additional tanks ... eventually.

Here's a couple of questions:

1. The acei's will need a larger tank due to their size ... 48" x 18" footprint ok ? ... or does it need to be a 6 footer ? (I realize that the answer is probably somewhat dependent on who the additional tank mates might be ... my intention is to go with a male female mix, regardless of who they are)

2. Given that both the acei's and flametails are reputedly both fairly peaceful, but have similar coloration (although the inverse of each other) could they co-exist in the same tank without aggression/hybridization issues ?

Other species, one or more of which, that I'm looking at keeping that might factor/fit into that particular tank equation:

Labidochromis Caeruleus
Metriaclima estherae (Red)	
Iodotropheus sprengerae

3. From what I can gather the M. auratus is a particularly aggressive mbuna species that probably shouldn't be housed with the above long-term. At their current size, there does not appear to be much in the way of aggression presently ... but I realize that this likely will not continue indefinitely, as the fish mature.

What would be the minimum size tank, if I were to keep these on a "species-only tank" basis, with a male/female mix ?

What ratio of male to female ?


----------



## wryan

Looks like we may have impending nuptials here.

Today one of the Julidochromis outcasts (there were three) - one of the larger ones - has taken up residence in a small rock cave/tunnel structure in The Forbidden Zone on the right side of the tank and is being not only tolerated by, but actually tended to and guarded by its Ruler ... who seems pretty focused on ensuring that the remaining two come nowhere near that side of the tank.

Lots of interesting behavior by the apparently newly-committed couple ... :lol:


----------



## RayMontana

My M. estherae are jerks they fight all the time..my l.caeruleus are pretty mild mannered. Those Auratus will be a problem. They are nice looking fish however. Maybe you can have them in a tank all by themselves..
I see them in tanks at the LFS or wally world usually with kenyii....I just say to myself poor people that buy those for their community tank. We used to get many trade ins at the store I worked at. I had a deal with the boss. We had first dibs. I got alot of cool fish that way.


----------



## wryan

Ray,



RayMontana said:


> My M. estherae are jerks they fight all the time..my l.caeruleus are pretty mild mannered.


Thanks for the insights.



RayMontana said:


> Those Auratus will be a problem.


Yeah ... I got an example of that tonight ... there's still a Spotted African Leaf Fish in the 55g that I haven't rehomed or moved to another tank yet. Was the more attractive of the two I had, but the smaller of the two, and was constantly bullied by the larger one. He's pretty slow-moving and laid back ... and has been a little under the weather ... still recovering from all the aggression.

He was going after a chunk of freeze-dried tubifex that one of the Auratus had it's eyes on ... and the Auratus took a pretty nasty peck at him on his gill plate.

Kinda surprising, given the Leaf fish is probably getting close to 4" (Auratus around 1 1/4") ... and is probably 8 to 10 times the body mass of the Auratus ... 



RayMontana said:


> They are nice looking fish however. Maybe you can have them in a tank all by themselves..


Or in a tank with tankmates that are willing and capable of defending themselves.

Either way, I'm good with it.



RayMontana said:


> I see them in tanks at the LFS or wally world usually with kenyii....I just say to myself poor people that buy those for their community tank.


LOL ... yeah ... they're probably in for some nasty surprises.



RayMontana said:


> We used to get many trade ins at the store I worked at. I had a deal with the boss. We had first dibs. I got alot of cool fish that way.


Sounds like it was a sweet deal ... :thumb:

Thanks again.


----------



## wryan

wryan said:


> Help me out here:
> 
> Have five A. stuartgranti F2 "Ngara Flametails" 1 1/4" juvies coming tomorrow which will go in the 55g for the time being. So with ...
> 
> Eight P. acei - 1 1/2" - 1 3/4"
> 
> Five A. stuartgranti - 1 1/4"
> 
> Three M. auratus - 1 1/4" (probably will pick up more)
> 
> I'm guessing that I'm going to need some additional tanks ... eventually.
> 
> Here's a couple of questions:
> 
> 1. The acei's will need a larger tank due to their size ... 48" x 18" footprint ok ? ... or does it need to be a 6 footer ? (I realize that the answer is probably somewhat dependent on who the additional tank mates might be ... my intention is to go with a male female mix, regardless of who they are)
> 
> 2. Given that both the acei's and flametails are reputedly both fairly peaceful, but have similar coloration (although the inverse of each other) could they co-exist in the same tank without aggression/hybridization issues ? ...


Mmmm ... _alrighty then_ ...

From what I can discern from reading this article:

The Peacocks of Lake Malawi by Marc Elieson - cichlid-forum.com

... although it looks like some folks do it, mixing mbuna and peacocks is a less than ideal situation ... certainly for the peacocks, due to the mbuna's temperament ...

The question regarding hybridization is still unclear to me, but is largely moot given the above I guess ...

Still not sure on the tank length tho' ...


----------



## DJRansome

Peacocks and acei should work in 48x18 or larger.

What is A stuartgranti? There are lots of kinds, including Ngara. Those would have to be in a separate tank.

Auratus ideally would be 1m:7f in a 72" tank although some have had limited success in 48x18 with 1-2 other mbuna species.


----------



## wryan

DJRansome said:


> Peacocks and acei should work in 48x18 or larger.


Got it.



DJRansome said:


> What is A stuartgranti? There are lots of kinds, including Ngara.


Aulonocara stuartgranti (Ngara) "Flametail Peacock" ?



DJRansome said:


> Those would have to be in a separate tank.


Ok.

Is that due to aggression, tank size required, too similar in coloration, possible hybridization ?



DJRansome said:


> Auratus ideally would be 1m:7f in a 72" tank although some have had limited success in 48x18 with 1-2 other mbuna species.


As of this afternoon I have six individuals ... they are about 1" to 1 1/4" or so long and all have the juvenile/female coloration.

Thanks.


----------



## wryan

The missing Julie at the LFS materialized ... so now we have 5 of the Julies ...

Dunno if this had anything to do with the decreased aggression/pairing/etc. or not, but after I added structure I was doing a little reading on here and ran across an old post of Fogelhund's that suggested adding some (zebra ?) danios to the tank as dithers ...

I had three here in the 55g so I netted them and moved them to the 10g ... the following morning was when I observed the dominant Julie being pretty friendly with one of the others.


----------



## DJRansome

Dithers are good if your fish are hiding. That's not your issue, right? Your juli's are not hiding...they are forming a pair which is what they should do.

You would not mix peacock species because they crossbreed, but more importantly once mixed, you will not be able to sell or rehome the original fish or any survivor fry because the females of different species are basically indistinguishable. Not a lot of demand for "unknown peacock female".

You had peacocks listed twice...one A. stuartgranti and one A stuartgranti Ngara. I thought you had 2 groups.


----------



## wryan

DJRansome said:


> Dithers are good if your fish are hiding. That's not your issue, right?


Yes, that's correct ... they aren't ... although they flee from aggressive behavior on the part of the dominant fish.

But none of them have actually retreated to a spot or spots and stay there ... they'll all still cruise around the tank to some extent ... and more so now, as opposed to when there was less structure.

It's looks like I had the terminology wrong - should have been: (danios as) target fish ?



DJRansome said:


> Your juli's are not hiding...they are forming a pair which is what they should do.


That's appears to me to be the case ... although there is an additional development.

Three of the five are roughly the same size, with one of these tending to be the dominant one, who has tried to rule the tank.

Next is a somewhat smaller one - maybe roughly half the size of the first three above - which was the one I picked up today. He's still holding fins erect in interactions - which seems to cause aggressive behavior on the part of the dominant fish.

Finally, there is one about half the size of the one immediately above. This one has learned better than to display erect finnage.

And when I say "half the size" above I mean body mass not length. Just guessing, I'd say they might be from three successive spawnings.

The additional development is that the one who was accepted into the dominant one's area/side of the tank seems also to be spending time with the other larger one.

But the majority of the shimmying and shaking is with the dominant fish.



DJRansome said:


> You would not mix peacock species because they crossbreed, but more importantly once mixed, you will not be able to sell or rehome the original fish or any survivor fry because the females of different species are basically indistinguishable. Not a lot of demand for "unknown peacock female".


Got it, makes sense.



DJRansome said:


> You had peacocks listed twice...one A. stuartgranti and one A stuartgranti Ngara. I thought you had 2 groups.


Yeah, sorry ... I didn't make it clear - there is only one group of peacocks: 5x of A stuartgranti Ngara


----------



## wryan

The five Aulonocara stuartgranti Ngara referred to above:



I make them to be around 1 1/2" to 1 3/4" ... they are a little larger than what I expected them to be (1 1/4") ... but I'm not really complaining either.


----------



## wryan

In the last 36 or so hours, the behavior of the Julie who was being courted by the most dominant Julie in the tank changed and it joined in with its prospective partner and started exhibiting aggression towards all the rest of the fish in the tank. A relentless "two against the world".

So last night, after removing the Ctenopoma acutirostre from the 55G to a newly setup 10G, I moved the three "outcast" Julies and the zebra danios to the 55G ...

The Ctenopoma is pretty slow and laid back and was being out-competed as far as food goes in the 55G ... since the P. acei and M. auratus all appear to pretty much resemble a pack of starving wolves in the presence of any food.

Additionally, over the last month or two, the Ctenopoma has become very tentative about taking food into it's mouth, and looking like it's having trouble swallowing. I've generally fed them (I originally had two, one since rehomed to the LFS) freeze-dried Tubifex ... which was happily accepted.

When I made up the last batch of my homebrew food, I over-dried it in the oven ... and it became about as hard as concrete. That hasn't been a problem - since was intended to feed smaller fish, who could couldn't fit the whole pieces into their mouths and actually had a bit of an upside in that it took quite a while to soften up in the tank ... allowing them to pick at it longer.

Could be that at some point, the Ctenopoma ingested a chunk of this latest batch and was injured by doing so. As of a week/ten days ago, I've started to put the food into water for 15 minutes or so to soften it up before putting it into to the tank.

The Julies I placed in the 55G seem to be holding their own against the Malawians ... in fact, the only trouble I've seen has been between the largest Julidochromis (larger) and the smallest M. auratus (smaller) ... all at the instigation of the auratus ...

Dunno what's up with that ... other than mebbe some kind of "small man syndrome" thing ... :lol:

Everyone else just pretty much ignores them.

The Julie pair in the 10G seem pretty happy at having the place to themselves ... they cruised around the tank together scoping it out, after I finished putting it back together when I was done moving the other fish to the 55G.

I have a flat piece of sandstone I will add to the tank today ... just in case these two have any immediate plans.


----------



## wryan

Got the 4th coat of paint put on the two 20L's and three 10G's day before yesterday, after checking for light bleed through on the 3rd coat with a flashlight. Hope that does it.

Also got the acrylic lids for the 10G's cut to size and got slots cut into one of them for the filter air line and heater wire using a Roto-Zip and a rotary burr. These are 1/8" thick acrylic and I think they are going to work fine. They are capable of supporting a small (6 or 7 lb) cat without bowing too badly. Just to be safe I'm going to solvent weld a 1" tall brace of the same material stood on edge running front to back. Have to clean up the edges on them today and might try my hand at flame polishing them.

After that it's on to cutting wood for the racks/stands.


----------



## wryan

Not a whole lot to report on the Julie 10G ... things are fairly calm for the most part.

The less dominant fish seems to spend of its (her ?) time kind of staying out of the way the more dominant fish (him ?) in various locations ... usually in a (lower) corner of the tank or on top/behind/next to the sponge filter. She usually does come out to eat when I feed them. But she isn't staying in one place, like she might be guarding eggs.

The more dominant fish spends his time either patrolling the tank, eating algae off the plants/rocks/heater/sponge filter, or charging at the less dominant fish. These really don't seem to be "attacks" per se ... as the more dominant fish doesn't seem to be biting and the less dominant fish usually doesn't move far (couple of inches at most) and usually returns immediately and proceeds to shake and shimmy, along with exhibiting short darting motions.

There's a pretty good amount of brown (diatomaceous ?) algae starting to grow on the plants, heater, etc. I assume that would be good for any fry that might eventually show up.

I got the gravel thoroughly vacuumed in the 55G tank and took a couple of pieces of the new lava rock I picked up and busted it up with a masonry chisel and hand sledge into smaller pieces. Have added about half of that so far, will finish scrubbing and rinsing the rest of it off and add it to the tank later today. Like how it's shaping up and the fish seem to be enjoying the additional nooks and crannies as well.

Will take some pics later tonight after it gets dark out and post them.


----------



## Aaron S

The "charging" behavior is pretty common for mbuna and not a concern. When fish spend a long time behind filters or otherwise oriented vertically that can often lead to disease and death from the induced stress from aggression and you might want to try to fix it.


----------



## wryan

Aaron,

Thanks for the input.



Aaron S said:


> The "charging" behavior is pretty common for mbuna and not a concern.


I probably didn't make it clear in my post: These aren't mbuna ... they are Tanganyikans - Julidochromis transcriptus (theoretically)



Aaron S said:


> When fish spend a long time behind filters or otherwise oriented vertically that can often lead to disease and death from the induced stress from aggression and you might want to try to fix it.


Fair enough ... although the amount of time it's spending vertically isn't anywhere near the majority of the time. I should probably take a video of the behaviors and post it so you and others can see exactly what I'm seeing.

Have any ideas on how to fix it ?

I've added a good amount of structure to tank - more plants, additional rocks with caves/tunnels ...


----------



## wryan

wryan said:


> I probably didn't make it clear in my post: These aren't mbuna ... they are Tanganyikans - Julidochromis transcriptus (theoretically)


Additional data:

Two fish only currently in the tank, which had appeared to have paired off ... prior to removing the other fish that had been in the tank.


----------



## DJRansome

Unless your "juli-rock" is vertical, likely any juli that swims vertical is not happy. This is the behavior of a julidochromis that is being rejected by the established pair. Keep an eye on him/her in case you have to rescue. The fix is not more structure...the expectation is to have to remove fish that don't pair off and are driven away.


----------



## wryan

Short (one minute thirty second) video showing an interaction.

The fish on the right is the dominant one ... and apparently the "side roll" when he is in the rocks is an aggressive display.

A longer video (3:30) will follow in the next post showing the charging behavior (occurs @ the 3:00 minute mark ... unfortunately, the interaction after the charge occurs at the back of the tank and is partially obscured by plants)


----------



## wryan

DJRansome said:


> Unless your "juli-rock" is vertical, likely any juli that swims vertical is not happy. This is the behavior of a julidochromis that is being rejected by the established pair. Keep an eye on him/her in case you have to rescue. The fix is not more structure...the expectation is to have to remove fish that don't pair off and are driven away.


Yeah ... pretty much all the vertical swimming/hovering/etc is occurring on vertical surfaces/structure ... so I don't read much into that.

I've seen the other Julies in the 55G do the same thing ... it's actually behavior that makes them kinda endearing ... those little torpedo bodies hugging and following the structure like they have some sort of internal magnet sticking them to it.

Nonetheless, I'm trying to keep a close eye on things.

I'm not seeing any evidence of anybody getting beat up ... though I realize that could change in a heartbeat ... quite likely when I'm not looking.


----------



## wryan

Next video (note behavior at the *3:00* mark)


----------



## wryan

Interesting paper which describes aggressive behavior in Julidochromis _marleri_ (description starts near the end of page three) ... although it is specific to a particular Julidochromis _species_, it may well encompass the entire _genus_ ... dunno:

Sex-reversed dominance and aggression in the cichlid fish Julidochromis marlieri


----------



## wryan

55G tank after the clean-up and adding some additional rock work.

Still need to get that floating Amazon Sword out of there tho' ... along with the air line for the sponge filter ... :lol:


----------



## wryan

Things have been pretty chill in the Julie 10G tank over the last 36 or so hours. The subordinate Julie seems to be spending more time out in the middle of the tank and in open water. Observed one instance of it rubbing its body against the dominant fish.

In the 55G have one auratus whose color is really washing out ... might be starting to make the transition to male coloration. This one spends a lot of time in the left front corner of the tank and going up and down ... over and over again. It does venture out into other parts of the tank ... but it's the only fish in the tank - other than the larger of the two Syncrossus berdmorei - that I've observed doing this up and down against the glass behavior.

The three Julies in the 55G are taking on all comers ... despite the size disadvantage, being about the smallest fish in the tank. And they are usually the ones initiating it. The largest one has staked out a large rock in the right front corner of the tank and woe unto anyone who dares to trespass.

Started clearing out what will become the fish room in the basement.

It's an 11 1/2' x 17' room that is pretty much finished off (drywalled walls and ceiling), including carpet. There's also a roughly 4' x 8' hall or entryway leading into it and 4' x 5' alcove off the main area.

It's immediately adjacent to the plumbing from the main upstairs bathroom ... so I'll have easy access to water and drain lines.

Once I get all the junk moved out of it, I'll take some pics and probably start a separate thread to document the build.


----------



## wryan

It appears I have located and secured a 100 Long tank - 72 (H) x 18 (D) x 17 (T) ... just waiting for me to get over and pick it up, which might happen as soon as tomorrow afternoon.

I know it's a little on the shallow side, depth-wise ... but is this a reasonable sized tank for either the Pseudotropheous sp. "acei" and/or the Aulonocara stuartgranti (Ngara) Flametails ?


----------



## DJRansome

I would say yes.


----------



## wryan

DJRansome said:


> I would say yes.


Thanks.


----------



## wryan

The sub Julie is excavating an area under a small rock (not visible from the front of the tank) behind another rock ... under the very careful supervision and prodding of the dominant fish.

Apparently they weren't happy with the flat rock I added ... mebbe was a little too public ... :lol:


----------



## wryan

Looks like the Julies have gotten a little too overzealous in their excavating ... it appears that the smaller piece of lava rock is falling into the pit that they dug between the larger and smaller rocks. Might have to move the smaller rock and reposition that flat piece of rock in place of it.

In other news, the young female cat went in and got fixed today and came through with flying colors apparently. Maybe now she'll quit climbing on top of the 55G ... :lol:

Also it appears I may have a deal pending on a 2nd 6 foot tank. This one is a black trim 125G and looks to be in pretty good shape. Includes a stand. :dancing:


----------



## Deeda

Yep, that is why rocks should be placed directly on the bottom glass!

Sorry your cat was broken. :lol: It is possible that she will still climb on top of the tank since she is used to it and if you have fluorescent lights, she may just be seeking a warm spot.

Fingers crossed on the new tank!


----------



## wryan

Deeda said:


> Yep, that is why rocks should be placed directly on the bottom glass!


Good point ... :thumb:



Deeda said:


> Sorry your cat was broken. :lol:


Yeah ... at this point, she probably is too.

I really hated to do it on the one hand - she's been through a lot ... plus hate to do anything that might alter her personality, which is pretty unique.

But the risks of her getting out and becoming pregnant were too great ... not to mention the 7 to 10 day periods of constant yeowling at all hours and rubbing all over everything were getting to be a bit much ... :lol:



Deeda said:


> It is possible that she will still climb on top of the tank since she is used to it and if you have fluorescent lights, she may just be seeking a warm spot.


Yeah ... but not for too much longer ... 

Any visits to the fish room will require that she be accompanied by an adult (human) ... :lol:



Deeda said:


> Fingers crossed on the new tank!


Thanks.


----------



## wryan

Was seeing an significantly increased aggression level on the part of one of the larger M. auratus yesterday.

This was just out of the blue ... dunno what set it off, but this one seemed to be chasing most any fish that came close it in the center of the tank.

Don't think it could be a lack of food ... the tank gets fed 3 to 5 times per day, in small amounts (all consumed in a minute or less)

Wife says the fish are growing and getting bigger ... I'm not sure I'm seeing it though, maybe because I'm looking at them pretty closely on a daily basis and she's not.

Probably just the nature of the species, or the particular individual.


----------



## wryan

Last Sunday I did a little road trip and picked up the 100G Long tank.

The tank glass appears to be in great shape, looks like it was never set up or filled for length of time (no mineral deposits) and no chips on the corners.

The plastic frames on the top and bottom are a bit of cobbled together affair ... looks like four 36" tank frames were used: two on the top and two on the bottom ... which might mean it was a homemade tank.



















Now just have to get it inside the house to clean it up, leak test it, and start working on it.


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## Deeda

Yes, it does appear that someone replaced the original trim with 2 trim units, I've not seen a tank with 4 separate openings for glass canopies.


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## wryan

Deeda said:


> Yes, it does appear that someone replaced the original trim with 2 trim units, I've not seen a tank with 4 separate openings for glass canopies.


Yeah ... kinda makes ya wonder they didn't bother contacting one of the major tank mfg's and just order a set of frames for a 125G ...

It did come with the 4 glass canopies BTW.


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## Aaron S

It is easy (and cheap) enough to make your own glass canopies by getting glass at lowes and buying the marineland handles and plastic bits - so that wouldn't deter me. My tank is a home-made tank too where they took two smaller tank tops and stuck them together. The result is that all the top sections are slightly different widths


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## wryan

Aaron S said:


> It is easy (and cheap) enough to make your own glass canopies by getting glass at lowes and buying the marineland handles and plastic bits - so that wouldn't deter me.


Yup ... there are multiple ways to skin that cat ... from picking up plastic hinge material for glass ... or just using FRP corner bead to make a sliding set up like Deeda did. Plastic handles/knobs are easy enough and the plastic strip across the back can be the ones made for an aquarium lid ... or just a piece of acrylic or polycarbonate.

I was pretty sure from the pics in the ad that this tank was in good shape and was a good value for the asking price ... although I didn't catch the two-piece frames before I drove up to pick it up.

I have it on good authority that the plastic frames used on the tank came from a Michigan-based injection molder, who doesn't produce any frames longer than 48".

That company was apparently acquired by Glasscages at some point ... so it almost makes me wonder whether the tank itself was early effort by Glasscages.

It appears that current Glasscages tanks that are over 48" just use a basic 90 degree black plastic angle, with mitered corners for trim and they use eurobracing and/or glass strips running front-to-back for bracing.



Aaron S said:


> My tank is a home-made tank too where they took two smaller tank tops and stuck them together. *The result is that all the top sections are slightly different widths*


Side to side or front to back ?


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## wryan

Was looking at the fish in the 55G late yesterday afternoon while the sun was making a brief appearance and shinning thru the living room window. The P. acei are really starting to color up very nicely and the largest Flametail peacock has easily discernible egg spots on its anal fin, although not much else in the way of color on any of them, other than their ventral fins.

Got the Magnum 200 cleaned and swapped out the micron cartridge with the media canister filled with Seachem denitrate. Amazing how much crud those bonded filter sleeves catch ... must have rinsed and wrung it half a dozen times before the water got to anything approaching clear.

Need to do a pwc and test for nitrates today as a baseline and then eventually see what effect the denitrate has on the nitrate level.


----------



## Aaron S

The dimension differences are only along the length of the tank.

I love watching these cichlids grow up.


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## wryan

Aaron S said:


> The dimension differences are only along the length of the tank.


Got it.



Aaron S said:


> I love watching these cichlids grow up.


Yup ... :thumb:


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## wryan

Got the pwc's done on the 55G and 10G tanks yesterday. Will test for nitrates today and clean the Magnum 330 filter today and and maybe set up a 20G long.

Realized today that I haven't seen the male BNP in the 55G for several days now ... hope he's just hiding ... but that isn't like him - he'll usually come out when I put food in the tank, regardless of the time of day.

The Ctenopoma acutirostre in the one 10G tank is still pretty much hiding behind the sponge filter all the time, has been ever since I put him in there a couple of weeks ago. The auratus that's in there with it is busy excavating a cave under a piece of lava rock ... they don't seem to pay much attention to each other.


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## wryan

Just a little update - the Julidochromis have spawned. Noticed them yesterday when my nephew and his wife were over and we were looking at the tanks.

They appear to be around 3/16" to 5/16" long and there are at least 4 of them, mebbe more ...

Like their parents they are quick little buggers.


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## wryan

Did a little observing yesterday and noticed additional Juli fry in the 10G ... some of them are so small they're almost impossible to see ... only notice them because of their movement, which can be surprisingly quick for something so small.

Also have had some problems with the 55G:

Lost all (5) of the Flametails ... they were picked off one or two at a time during the night. Dunno who was the culprit as I never noticed any aggression.

There's also one Juli and one yellow tail acei that are currently MIA in that tank ... although I have had fish disappear for days and then reappear.

One of the auratus has had a very substantial color change ... mostly greyish at this point.

He tends to stay at one end of the tank and most of the other fish stay at the other end most of the time because he'll chase them out of his end ... although the largest Juli - which is actually way smaller than the auratus - still chases the auratus ... :lol:


----------



## wryan

The male auratus mentioned above is probably 2 1/4" long. The aggression mentioned I've only noticed within the past couple of days.

There is a female that is slightly larger - 2 1/2" or so. She currently seems fairly aggressive herself.

These two are the largest of that species that I have - the other 4 auratus are considerably smaller.

It appears the first two mentioned above are courting. To say it is somewhat aggressive would be an understatement.

Interestingly, all of the fish in the tank do not appear beat up in the least ... fins all look good, not torn or shredded up, nobody appears to have been chewed up, etc.


----------



## wryan

As of about a month ago the 10G tank with the Julies had gotten pretty heavily coated with brown algae on the plants and side and back glass. Seemed like the stuff was everywhere.

In the past several weeks, much of it has disappeared ... and while I was observing the tank the other day I noticed the adult Julies grazing on it ... so apparently it's been eaten. Pretty surprising how much of it they consumed. Not real hard to imagine with the fry in there, it eventually might get picked fairly clean.


----------



## wryan

Can't recall if I asked this before or not.

I have sponge filters running in all 4 tanks (3 - 10G, 1 - 55G) ... how often should they be cleaned/rinsed out ? (in a bucket of tank water)

In the case of two of the filters (in the 55G) they get picked over/vacuumed pretty well by the fish in the tank. On the one in 10G Julie tank, it gets picked over ... but not as much as the ones in the 55G (will possibly change now that there are fry)

The other two 10G tanks not so much.


----------



## Deeda

Thanks for all the updates!

As to the sponge filter cleaning schedule, it will vary from tank to tank. I would just remove one and see how dirty it is and then base your cleaning on that.


----------



## wryan

Deeda said:


> Thanks for all the updates!


My pleasure ... 

Saw some interesting behavior yesterday that I hadn't seen before ... at least not to that extent.

Momma and papa Julie faced off and locked lips in a tussle for an extended period of time ... probably lasted 20 - 30 seconds or more ... 

After that it was pretty much back to normal.



Deeda said:


> As to the sponge filter cleaning schedule, it will vary from tank to tank. I would just remove one and see how dirty it is and then base your cleaning on that.


Fair enough ... :thumb:


----------



## wryan

Looking for input/feedback from the more experienced eyes.

Below is a picture of the larger/more dominant of my breeding pair of Julies. These were originally sold by my LFS Julidochromis transcriptus - however I'm questioning that, as they don't look like the photos of transcriptus that I've seen ... the vertical banding extends down past the midline (more evident in the other smaller/submissive fish of the pair) and the black stripe below the eye (which is less evident in the other fish of the pair)

The mother (I believe) of this fish was also pretty large for transcriptus - from what I can recall, I'd guess she was probably close to 4".

So I'm guessing Julidochromis Marlieri "Gombe" perhaps ?


----------



## wryan

Below is a picture (although not quite as good as the one above) of the smaller/submissive fish of the pair, showing the vertical banding to the bottom of the body and a hint of an additional strip, below the stripe below the eye:


----------



## wryan

Bueller ?

... anyone ?


----------



## wryan

Set up a 20G Long day before yesterday on the shelf under the 55G display tank. Used a sponge filter from a 10G that had been previously set up and running.

Also used that medium Black Diamond blasting media for the substrate. This will be my first experience with using sand rather than gravel ... will be interesting to see how it works out, in terms of vacuuming it to keep it clean ... the stuff sure seems awfully fine to me ... :roll:

I picked up 6 Labidochromis caeruleus yesterday afternoon from a LFS and added them to the 55G. They range from 1 3/4" to mebbe 2 1/4", with most of them being around 2". They look to be Lions Cove (I) from what I've read, and there appears to be only one male, based on their coloration ...

Last night I managed to move 4 of the 6 auratus, including the male that had changed color, from the 55G to the 20G Long. Since the 55G had so many rocks and plants in it, I used a long/tall glass jar as a trap, to trap the fish in in order to remove them. Wasn't too keen on placing a glass jar in the tank tho' ... going to see if I can cobble up a fish trap out of acrylic for future use, should be a little safer. (Thanks to CF member daviddj for the idea)

To say that things have calmed down a bit in the 55G would be an understatement. With the (dominant) male auratus moved to the 20G, fish in the 55G are now inhabiting the entire length of the tank. Even the larger Julie seems to be more relaxed, with less chasing of tankmates out of that end of the tank.

Plan is to: 1. move the other two auratus in the 55G into the 20G Long (will likely need to add more structure), and 2. move the Julies in the 55G into a 10G once it's cycled.

May eventually end up rehoming the auratus back to the LFS, due to their aggressiveness ... unless they settle down and spawn, in which case I might hang onto them, just for the experience and learning.


----------



## wryan

Quick update:

All auratus have been moved to the 20G Long. Interestingly enough they seem less aggressive overall now as a single-species tank, without all the other fish that were in the 55G ... even though the tank is considerably smaller. Which not to say that there is no aggression whatsoever. But it doesn't appear all that bad (no continual targeting/hounding)

However, when I initially started moving them in, the females hounded the dominant male (for quite a while) ... who has once again taken up residence on the right side of the tank. He will occasionally chase someone over to the left. The others tend to hang around on the left side. Lots of digging in the sand.

The yellow labs in the 55G seem to be acclimating ... and it now looks like three of the six fish have black anal/pectoral fins ... so if that is actually a true indication of the male sex, I may have three males (at least) The one I originally noticed as having black anal/pectoral fins was the largest of the bunch and his coloration is a bit faded as compared to the rest ... but he's the only one exhibiting vertical barring (which is pretty light)

There's been a lot of digging in the gravel along the back over the last couple of weeks ... couldn't really see who's doing it. However today one of the BNP's started to dig under a good-sized lava rock from the front side. Given that rock has two others stacked on top of it, I'll be needing to move at least top rock before it comes crashing down.

The small Julie (1 1/2") in the 55G is starting to get pretty plucky ... he will occasionally dart over and hit the larger Julidochromis and is always facing off with the acei and labs.

Hope to get some pics tonight and post them.


----------



## wryan

Going by size, it looks like there are at least 3, maybe 4, different spawns in the Julie 10G tank ... they now range in size from about 1/8" to around 3/4" ... they just keep cranking them out.

These are a couple of the largest:


----------



## Iggy Newcastle

I finally managed to make it through this thread. Good read and thanks for sharing.

What's going on with the Auratus? Still in the 20?


----------



## wryan

Iggy Newcastle said:


> I finally managed to make it through this thread. Good read and thanks for sharing.


My pleasure ... thanks for having a look.



Iggy Newcastle said:


> What's going on with the Auratus? Still in the 20?


Yup, all six of them are still in the 20G Long.

The male has the right 3/4's of the tank and usually guards it from the middle/halfway ... will chase the others all the way over to the left wall. It's pretty aggressive ... but I suspect it's mostly just courting or reproductive behavior. Doesn't appear that anyone is the worse for wear (no obvious physical damage like nipped/shredded fins, etc.)

They've excavated all the sand away from the bottom of the two large lava rocks and dug some pits.

Haven't seen any indication that anyone in that tank is holding.


----------



## wryan

Got the 100G Long moved onto some cardboard yesterday evening and got it about 1/2 way filled before I ran out of water ... wife had been washing clothes and cleaning all day long.

As of now, no sign of any leaks ... will get it filled the rest of the way here in a little bit and then let it sit for 48 hours before pumping it out.


----------



## wryan

Still no evidence of leaks in the 100G Long after filling it up the rest of the way the following day ... so I'd say it should be good to go ... :thumb:

Gonna head down to Menards later and pickup the lumber and fasteners to build the stand.


----------



## Iggy Newcastle

Sweet

Good luck on the stand project


----------



## wryan

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Sweet
> 
> Good luck on the stand project


Iggy,

Thanks ... I wasn't looking forward to having to reseal the tank if it leaked ... 

Got some nice (relatively straight and unwarped) 2 x 4 x 8's picked up yesterday, along with some star-head screws. The screws were the type with the tapered head ... they will be flush when installed, so that the cabinet cab be skinned. Forgot to the pick up the cabinet screws for the rest of the racks tho' ... so it looks like I'll be making a trip back there at some point.

Next thing is cleaning up/out the garage so I have a place to work ... will get started on that today.


----------



## Iggy Newcastle

I've never built a stand. But I have used star head deck screws for my outdoor box turtle enclosure. They will easily be flush, or sunk. I used my Milwaukee impact. It was a breeze.


----------



## wryan

Iggy Newcastle said:


> I've never built a stand. But I have used star head deck screws for my outdoor box turtle enclosure. They will easily be flush, or sunk. I used my Milwaukee impact. It was a breeze.


I plan on drilling countersinks for the heads ... I could just drive them in ... but that tends to start very small splits along the grain.

Probably not a big issue on something that doesn't hold a lot of weight ... but on a stand I'll go the extra mile and avoid the worry.

Making some progress on the garage clean out. Not quite as much as I'd like, mostly due to the weather being nice/warm and needing to get some yard work done ... but it's getting there. There's a 50% to 70% chance of thunderstorms Wednesday and Thursday, so I should be able to get some more inside time in.


----------



## DJRansome

As long as the legs are under the rails, and the weight of the tank is not hanging on the screws, not a problem.


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## wryan

DJRansome said:


> As long as the legs are under the rails, and the weight of the tank is not hanging on the screws, not a problem.


The legs will be under the rails, both length and depth.


----------



## wryan

Finally managed to tear down the 10G Julie tank, give it a good cleaning, and fish all the offspring out into another 10G tank I had set up.

The largest of the offspring are probably 1 3/4" at this point (click for larger image):










Hopefully that will get the pair back to breeding.


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## Iggy Newcastle

:thumb:


----------



## wryan

Thanks Ig !

I had a couple of old Marineland Magnums (a 200 and a 330) I was running on the 55G ... over the last couple of weeks the motors on them finally gave out so I picked up a Sunsun 304b to replace them. Very impressed with it so far ... particularly how quiet it is. Did a great job cleaning up the 55G in fairly short order.

Noticed that there are two yellow labs in there that appear to be holding.

Also it appears that the two Julidochromis transcriptus in the 55G that were rejected by the pair have finally decided that their prospects of getting a different mate are pretty slim and maybe they'll settle for what's available. Need to move those two to their own tank asap.

Need to get back on the fish room project so I can get more tanks set up.


----------



## Iggy Newcastle

Yea how is the room coming along? It takes so much time getting things going. I think im putting my ideas on hold til fall or so...


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## wryan

Slow (no) going at this point ... hope to get back into it by this weekend. I figure I have a good month and half before the weather gets decent and the outdoors start calling. Hope to get all the walls washed down and the last of the mudding done this weekend on the room. The paint after that.

I did get a HOB and a canister filters cleaned out this evening. Also got a glass cross-brace siliconed in on the old All Glass 55G tank earlier today. Should be fully cured by Friday morning ... at that point I'll silicone the plastic trim/frame back on the top.

After that cures I'll move all the fish out of the newer 55G into it and then tear the newer one down for a really thorough cleaning ... would like to change substrate at that point ... if I can find what I'm looking for: large sand/small gravel with a particle size of between 1/16" to 1/8".

Should be small enough to pack fairly well but easy to vacuum without sucking up a bunch of substrate while you're doing it. Something just a bit larger than, to maybe 2x, the size of sugar. Tried "medium" Black Diamond blasting media from Tractor Supply (sieve size 20 - 40) as my first foray into "sand" ... so far not impressed.

Still too small IMO, I'm afraid it will get stirred up and adhere to the bio film on the glass, get sucked up in filters etc.


----------



## wryan

Got the plastic frame siliconed on the old 55G tank a few days ago.

Went to fill it with water and found out it is out of level by about an 1/8" ... it's an angle iron frame with two occupied 10G tanks on the lower shelf.

The frame is fairly flimsy too ... so the tank won't be getting filled until it gets moved downstairs into the fish room.

Delivered 20 Julidochromis transcriptus to a LFS about a week to 10 days ago. Kept three here ... one which was under an inch and two of the larger ones (1 1/2") ... amazing how changing the population changes the dynamics of the social order. One of the larger Julies became super aggressive ... constantly hounding the other two ... to the point I pulled them out and stuck them in a different 10G tank.

This past Wednesday (?) I picked up five Synodontis eupterus (1 1/4") and put them in the tank with the aggressive Julie ... same deal ... she won't let them alone. I'm think I need to move her out of there and into the 55G tank with the big fish ... where she'll be the smallest fish in the tank.

Now have blue-green cyanobacteria growing in the 10G tank that the proven breeding pair of Julies are in ... the female seems to be eating it.

Need to do some plant work today and trim back an anubius and some java fern.


----------



## DJRansome

Eupterus are more solitary than some of the other African Synodontis like multipunctatus, petricola and lucipinnis.


----------



## wryan

DJRansome said:


> Eupterus are more solitary than some of the other African Synodontis like multipunctatus, petricola and lucipinnis.


Yup ... that's seems to jive with what I've observed in the short time I've had them.

They tend to bunch up together in darker hiding places during the day (or high light conditions) when they aren't particularly active ... but when they do start cruising the tank (@ feeding time) it's as individuals and not as a group.

I'll probably pick up some of the other species you mentioned at some later point ... just because I think the schooling behavior would be fun to watch.


----------



## wryan

The J. transcriptus fry in the 10G have started to venture out into the other areas of the tank beyond the lava rock where they were hatched. I have observed only three fry so far ... but there may be more, which could be smaller and harder to see. They are probably 1/4" long at most.

About a week ago I picked up 7 Neolamprologus cylindricus from a local breeder. Only 6 made it home ... one might have gotten trapped in the folds of the bag they were in ... anyways DOA. They were put in the newly setup 10G tank in the fish room by themselves. They are around 5/8" or so long at this point ... all seem to be doing well and always seem ready and willing to eat. Keeping the tank at around 79F and feeding around 4 - 6 times per day in very small amounts.

All the BNP eggs in the 55G are gone at this point. I haven't seen any fry, but I assume they hatched. The parents will be getting their own 20G Long tank as soon as I can get the auratus moved into the 20G Long that's already set up and running down there and get the tank that the M. auratus are currently in (upstairs), moved down to the fish room. It appears that both auratus that were holding have now spit.

The L. caeruleus fry in the 55G seem to be gaining size pretty quickly, maybe approaching 1/2" at this point. Not sure how many there actually are ... only see a couple at a time.

Have two 20G Longs and a 55G I hope to get the backs/bottoms painted on today or tomorrow so I can get them set up and running.


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## wryan

Got another 10G tank moved down into the fish room yesterday. Pulled out the old substrate (small gold gravel) and replaced it with aragonite (Caribsea "Special Reef Grade") and stuck the AC30 HOB on it to clear the clouded water. Was mostly clear this morning ... until I stuck a big piece of lava rock in and rearranged substrate which stirred things up a bit. Still it's not too bad ... should clear up in a couple of hours.

Plan is to move the two rejects from the original Julidochromis transcriptus group - which are currently in the 55G with Malawians - to see if maybe they will pair up and breed. Judging by size alone, it appears that they may be a male and a female. They have grown much more tolerant of each other ... with a little behavior that I took to possibly be courting. Think being in the 55G, where they are essentially the smallest fish in there, might be putting a damper on any nuptials ...

Earlier today I fished out 3 Melanochromis auratus fry out of the 20G Long they and the adults were in and stuck them in the 10G in the fish room that the Neolamprologous cylindricus are in. They are all about the same size - about 5/8". This will likely be a temporary solution, as I suspect the auratus will grow much faster ... plus given how aggressive they are.

Just observing their respective behaviors after I put them in was interesting. The cylindricus have been very active and will chase each other around ... but they don't seem to be staking territories and the chases are over almost before they start. Different deal with the auratus ... it seems like at least two of them staked out spots immediately ... and they are acting pretty aggressive in defending it. They seem more aggressive with each other though ... actually going head to head and locking jaws.

Now that I have all the fish out of the auratus 20G Long upstairs, I need to drain it, and remove the substrate, and move it down to the fish room ... so I can set it up as a species only tank for the BNP's, now that they have bred. Hopefully get that done this afternoon.


----------



## wryan

Made a couple of what I thought were interesting observations today:

The 10G auratus and cylindricus fry tank has a fairly substantial amount of brown diatoms, green hair algae, and colonial blue-green "algae" (of some variety) growing in it. Today while I was observing, I noticed the auratus tended to graze on whatever was growing on the substrate (brown diatoms/CBGA) while the cylindricus tended to graze more on what was growing the two lava rocks (brown diatoms/green hair algae) I suspect that there is enough algae growing in the tank that I would not have to supplement the diet of auratus with commercial food for quite some time. As the cylindricus is reported to be a carnivore, I'm not so certain that would work for them ... since I don't have a microscope and can't really see what sort of little creatures might be living in the "aufwuchs" (if any)

Also: the substrate (white aragonite) which is covered in shade due to overhanging rocks has nothing growing on it.

In the 10G tank with the breeding pair of J. transcriptus there is an anubias growing which covered very heavily with what I suspect is brown diatom algae. It is a very dark brown with a slight purplish hue to it. It also grows on the glass, filter and heater although usually not as thick and it seems to ebb and flow, increasing and then decreasing. This evening I saw the larger J. transcriptus (which I take to be the female) violently lunge at an anubias leaf and tear off a sheet of this algae about the size of a nickel to a quarter, suck it in and chew on it, then spit it out ... only to repeat the cycle several more times before allowing whatever was left to sink down to the substrate. In the 16 or so months I've had these particular fish I had suspected this might be happening but had never actually observed it first hand.

Their fry have now moved off the substrate to hanging on vertical surfaces (glass, heater, sponge filters) and grazing them, for whatever is growing there. The number of fry seems to be increasing as I spot more of them at any given time ... might be up to 6 or so by now. Largest might be close to 5/16 inch.


----------



## wryan

Another spawning, or maybe two, from the Melanochromis auratus.

The P. "acei" have not spawned after 16 months ... despite the one being the dominant male of the entire tank ... beginning to wonder if I have all males.

Got the 20G Long moved down into the fish room, black "sand" cleaned and put back in and the tank filled with water. Need to clean the glass on the inside, install the heater, and hook up the sponge filter. Have a piece of Mopani wood I need to attach some anubias to and stick in as well ... then it's just a matter of chasing down the BNP's in the 55G and moving them into their new home.

Have seen no evidence of BNP fry in the 55G ... so perhaps the eggs or fry were eaten.

Hope to get to painting aquarium backs and bottoms sometime later today.


----------



## wryan

Picked up 3 Super Red shortfin BNP and 3 Calico Long Fin BNP juvies at the OCA auction last night. They are about 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" long.

Also picked up 6 S. fryeri juvies as well. Probably 1 1/4" most.

The BNP's went into established tanks and seem to have already started working on whatever is growing on the surfaces. I offered the S. fryeri some Omega One Super Color flake food and they didn't seem at all interested in it. Next I'll try some freeze-dried Tubifex I guess. If anyone has any insights on what to feed them, it would be appreciated.

The M. auratus fry seem to be growing significantly faster than the Tang's in the tank with them (J. transcriptus, N. cylindricus) ... but all seem to be doing fine. Have a couple of L. caeruleus in the living room 55G that are about the same size that I need to net and and stick in that tank, when I tear the upstairs tank down.


----------



## wryan

The three Super Red Short Fin BNP's have managed to pick off pretty much all the algae (brown diatoms) that was growing the 10G tank I stuck them in, in the space of about 36 hours. The tank hadn't been set up all that long (couple months ?), so it wasn't all that heavily covered. Will probably relocate those to another tank and let them work on cleaning it up.

The three Calico Long Fin BNP's are in a 20G Long (with the six S. fryeri) &#8230; plenty of algae growth in there to keep them occupied &#8230; at least for a while.

Freeze-dried Tubifex (and veggie wafers oddly enough) seem to be working for the S. fryer.

Got the four P. acei moved yesterday from the upstairs tank down to the old 55G tank in the fish room. Hopefully they will spawn now that they have a tank to themselves.

Also moved a quarrelsome J. transcriptus to a 20G Long from the 10G tank that the S. eupterus are in, since it was constantly picking on them.


----------



## Deeda

Wow you have been busy.


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## wryan

Yeah ... I managed to summon up a little energy finally ... and then ... 

:lol:

The BNP's seem to pretty much demolish all the brown diatom algae in whatever tank I put them in.

Did some clean up on a couple of tanks yesterday, along with a couple of PWC's, drew water, and added the pleco caves to what will be their tank.

Today mebbe prep and paint the back of a 55G tank, install the HMF in a 20G Long, hook up the central air pump, straighten up the fish room.

Currently have two tanks (10G, 20G Long) which are set up and running but empty ...


----------



## wryan

Got the central air pump hooked up and running, the HMF installed in a 20G Long ... running a total of 9 outlets/devices (hard) and still having to bleed off air.

Like the water movement on the air lifter on the HMF ... :thumb:

Still have some clean up/straightening up to do in the fish room before I'm done for the day ...


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## Deeda

Great to hear on the amount of air produced. :thumb:

I should have posted yesterday to tell you to install the airlift off center on that tank so that if you decided to add a 2nd airlift, you could split them more evenly.


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## wryan

Deeda said:


> Great to hear on the amount of air produced. :thumb:


Yah ... :thumb:



Deeda said:


> I should have posted yesterday to tell you to install the airlift off center on that tank so that if you decided to add a 2nd airlift, you could split them more evenly.


I just did the slit thing - didn't cut a notch - so it should "heal" and close up if I ever wanted to do a second lift tube.


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## wryan

Just a little update - I have added some more species, which I picked up at the GAAS auction awhile back (couple months ?):

Julidochromis ornatus - 6
Julidochromis dickfeldi - 6
Julidochromis regani - 2
Julidochromis transcriptus "Zambia" - 3
Neolamprologus pulcher "Daffodil" - 3
Agamyxis pectinifrons -1 (Spotted Raphael catfish)

and another 4 BNP's ...

I lost two of the J. orantus when they got stuck in the bag as I was emptying out into a tank and failed to notice, so down to 4 now.

The two J. regani are near adult-size and were sold as a "possible pair" ... indeed they are, as they have already spawned once ... :thumb: They are very dark, almost like the "Kachese" variant in the CF species profile. Handsome fish (IMO)

One of the J. transcriptus "Zambia" was killed off by the other two, who have apparently paired off. They are in a 10 gallon tank with 3 Synodontis eupterus, so I'm not expecting much in the way of fry until I can move the S. eupterus.

I haven't seen the Spotted Raphael cat in a while ... but may be entirely normal, as they are light averse and prefer dark spots during the day. This supposedly was a wild caught specimen.

The 4 BNP's (1" to 1 1/2") were tossed in the upstairs 55 and they proceeded to pretty much pick it clean of the brown diatoms it was covered in.

I also picked up 6 Neolamprologous multifasciatus at an OCA auction ... they're sharing a 20G Long with the J. dickfeldi. No indications of spawning by either ... the J. dickfeldi are on small side, but probably possible with the multies.

The original J. transcriptus pair have continued to breed ... and there are about a 1/2 dozen or so juvi's which are better than 1" long, and some smaller fry as well. The 2 "outcasts" from that original batch of J. transcriptus did eventually pair up after I moved them to a 20G Long and have produced one spawning so far, the largest of which are around 1/2".

P. acei still have not bred that I've seen ... not really sure what's up with that ...

Need to move some fish around and get the backs on the three empty tanks painted so I can get them set up and spread out the fish I have. Also need to get rid of some fish.

Hopefully get back to working on the fish room in fairly short order.


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## wryan

Correction:

Yesterday afternoon I went to feed the fish in the 55G tank that Pseudotropheus acei are in and I noticed one juvi about 1/2" long ... there may be more.

So it appears they have successfully spawned ... :thumb:


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## Iggy Newcastle

Got caught up again.

I've had a similar situation with anubis and thick diatomaceous(sp?) algae covering the leaves. Transcriptus in the tank as well. Never saw them feeding on any of it, though. I ended up with various types of algae all over the glass and decor. Pretty hideous. I said 'the heck with it' and added a small army of BNPs. They've done a good job.

Congrats on all the spawnings. I think once you get accustomed to the behavior of the mouthbrooders you'll easily recognize when a female is holding. I'm referring to the Acei fry you just found.


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## wryan

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Got caught up again.
> 
> I've had a similar situation with anubis and thick diatomaceous(sp?) algae covering the leaves. Transcriptus in the tank as well. Never saw them feeding on any of it, though. I ended up with various types of algae all over the glass and decor. Pretty hideous. I said 'the heck with it' and added a small army of BNPs. They've done a good job.


I have been impressed with how well the 4 have done in the upstairs 55G I put them in.

I need to spread the ones I have (around a dozen total) around better, between the various tanks.



Iggy Newcastle said:


> Congrats on all the spawnings.


Thanks.



Iggy Newcastle said:


> I think once you get accustomed to the behavior of the mouthbrooders you'll easily recognize when a female is holding. I'm referring to the Acei fry you just found.


Yeah ... I have seen it with the M. auratus and L. caeruleus ... both of which have spawned for me.

And I have seen courting behavior from the P. acei ... but I don't recall ever seeing any of the females holding.

Will have to pay closer attention.


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## wryan

Was just downstairs trying to catch up on maintenance, feed the fish, etc. ... and I noticed the Neolamprologus multifasciatus have spawned ... =D>

:thumb:


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## Iggy Newcastle

Sweet! They're really fun.


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## wryan

Iggy Newcastle said:


> Sweet! They're really fun.


Yeah ... their antics are pretty cute.

On the adults, it appears I have 1 male, 5 females (?) ... all of them exhibit darker barring, except for the smallest one ... who appears to be a bit younger than the others.

The shells are in the center of a 20G Long tank and the male hovers over his "harem" dividing his attentions among them ... along with keeping the J. dickfeldi corralled into two groups, mostly at either end of the tank ... :lol:


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## Deeda

Congrats on the multies spawning!!! I'm always surprised at just how little the fry are and how well they blend into the substrate.


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## wryan

Thanks Dee !

Yup, they're pretty tiny and they really do blend in well ... possibly why I missed them before now.

One of the things that I forgot to mention that I picked up at that GAAS auction a couple of months ago was a bag of 10 Cherry Red Shrimp.

Didn't have a separate aquarium set up and cycled to put them in so I just took a 10G tank, set it on the floor and tipped one end up a little, and poured them out of the bag into the tank.

After that, I took a gallon jug of hard water - since I didn't have any soft water drawn that was at room temp - and set up a drip line to feed it in slowly. Think I eventually put 2 gallons in. Threw in a little Java Moss too.

To my embarrassment, I have to admit that I have really done nothing with them for the past couple of month except throw in a little flake food occasionally. Haven't even done that for at least the last three weeks.

Yesterday while doing maintenance I scoped out the tank and found - amazingly - that quite a few of them were still alive.

So drained and refilled one of the 10G tanks I had freed up in the meantime with some soft water and moved most of them over to it.

They seemed pretty happy with their new digs.


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## wryan

Just a quick update:

Added 5 juvenile Julidochromis marlieri (1 1/2" or so) that I picked up at the auction at the last OCA meeting. Also picked up another 6 Yellow Labs (about 1" or so)

These guys are all hanging out in 20G Long until I can get more tanks set up.

I now have all the Julidochromis species: dickfeldi, marlieri, ornatus, regani, and transcriptus ... but not all the various color morphs from the different collection points.

Sad to report that I just found the male J. ornatus that fathered the recent spawn I discovered a couple of days ago on his side, dead on the bottom earlier this evening. This particular fish had what I considered to be a rather odd-shaped mouth - which became more noticeable as it grew out. The mouth was unusually small and seemed to lack the large lips julies typically have.

The BNP's that just hatched out a few days ago seem to be progressing pretty rapidly as they absorb their yolk sacs ... they are probably 1/2" or better long at this point and still hiding in the cave. I wouldn't be surprised to see them venturing out by sometime tomorrow ... looking for something to eat.

The S. fryeri that was holding had either spit or swallowed ...

Funny thing: in that 20G Long described above there is a matten filter ... and there are also a pair of youngish BNP's (the one is just starting to get his bristles) As I was sitting there watching them that male started to swim down the jetlifter to the space on back of side of the filter. Then - before he even made it all the way - I noticed: the glass on that backside area had been getting pretty well covered with brown diatoms, never cleaned since I set the tank up ... but it was clean as whistle as I sat there looking at it.

Apparently this wasn't his first trip down the pipe ... :lol:


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## wryan

Moved the 3 adult Yellow Labs out of the upstairs 55G tank, down into the 55G that has the Electric Blue Haps ...
Moved the 3 N. pulcher down into a 20G Long of their own as well:




























Hopefully, now that they are in a species-only tank, that will spur them to spawn.

That leaves only a Clown Loach, a Spotted Raphael Cat, a very small BNP, and the pair of J.reagani in the upstairs 55G.

Also moved the 6 juvenile Yellow Labs in the 20G Long to a 10G tank to grow out ... probably the only real benefit there, that it makes it a little less crowded for the J. marleri to grow out/pair off in the 20G.


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## Iggy Newcastle

I e had BNPs do the same on sponge filter lift tubes. I have them in all my display tanks now, except 1, but that aquarium is getting a makeover this weekend. Looks like you could use one in the Pulcher 20L, lol.


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## wryan

Iggy Newcastle said:


> I e had BNPs do the same on sponge filter lift tubes. I have them in all my display tanks now, except 1, but that aquarium is getting a makeover this weekend. Looks like you could use one in the Pulcher 20L, lol.


Yup ... although the pulchers do graze a bit on the algae.

If they spawn, I imagine the fry will as well ... :thumb:


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