# Slow GT growth???



## newbiechick (Apr 2, 2009)

Hi
I've had my GT for about a couple of months now and haven't really noticed any difference in size (still at about 2"). I only have experience with Malawi juvies so can't really say if the slower growth rate is natural.
Its currently in a 20long with 3 tetras and is being fed NLS 2-3 times a day, along with dried blackworms once in a while. I've been doing 20-30% water changes twice a week.

Any advice :-?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Just be patient...It sounds like you're doing everything right.

This tank is temporary, right?


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## newbiechick (Apr 2, 2009)

No definitely not staying in the 20gal  , eventually it'll move to a 55gal by itself.

Would you recommend frozen dried foods with NLS? The cichlid formula has pretty low protein & fat so while growing up would supplementing help?
Also which one would be better (looking at OmegaOne range): Mysis shrimp, shrimp, tubifex worms, blood worms or krill?


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## Lancerlot (Feb 22, 2006)

I've had 7 GT in total. Some grew 1"-6" in 4months. Some stayed 3" then in 2months got to 6-7". It just depends. Post a picture so we can see if the fish is stunted. Cause if it is, You know its going to take for ever to reach max size


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I don't care for the freeze dried foods at all, but you might try some frozen ones!


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## newbiechick (Apr 2, 2009)

Took some pics to show what I mean...the heater and tetras should give an idea of size.

Bad phone pics 







Cichlidaholic, you mentioned frozen dry foods aren't worth it in your opinion, what frozen food would you recommend. I'm guessing not beef heart right?


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## Lancerlot (Feb 22, 2006)

Blue acura body shape, Green terror color. Im just going to have to say that was crossed with a blue acura. Cause of the gill plates and the elongated body. I've never seen those species Fry turn out like this. I got a feeling this fish will never reach its potential size and other issues will appear.

Honestly looks photo shopped almost lol

1/2 of the fish is literaly Gt the other half is the Blue acura. This is like a bad fake picture almost. but it's not lol


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## Lancerlot (Feb 22, 2006)

The more I look at those pictures it gets more Awkward 

Female w/e it is btw!


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## newbiechick (Apr 2, 2009)

Thanks for the input Lancerlot   it would be great if other people can chime in...I had a feeling the growth was not quite right.
I actually got her from a really reputable lfs...what should I do?


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Hi *newbiechick*,

It definately looks deformed I'm sorry to say. I know this may be hard to hear, but it may be best if the fish was euthanasiad.

It is commonly believed here in Australia that many Asian imported Blue acaras have had GT's mixed into thier lineage somewhere along the line.

Recently some very nice German imported Blue acaras arrived in a few LFS up here in Brisbane. I have not seen Blue acaras this nice for atleast 20 years. I believe they came from the wholesaler/importer BayFish. If you do want to look for a new fish I would ask a reputable LFS and see if they could order some fish from BayFish, perticularly thier Melbourne operation.

It's been about 5 or 6 years since I last visited some LFS in Sydney. I do remember Lams Aquarium in Paramatta was pretty good. There was another very, very good LFS, but for the life of me I can't remember the suburb or name of it. Otherwise you should visit the NSW cichlid website, Australian Cichlid Enthusiasts Forum.


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## newbiechick (Apr 2, 2009)

Hey DFF 

Could you tell me why exactly you say she's deformed (same reason as Lancerlot?). I've been looking at a few threads for the past hour and get the impression that the orange/red lining on both the fins would make it a GT right?
I honestly don't think I would be able to kill it. Should I just be patient and see what happens or return her to the store?

I'm really bummed about this...she's my first non-african cichlid


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Hi *newbiechick*,

Her overall body shape looks very _wrong_. The size of the head in relation to it's body looks wrong. It also looks rather bloated. It's the over all impression of the fish we are commenting on. We are not looking at the edge triming of the fins to identify the fish.

As you have said, you have had it for a couple of months, and it's barely grown, even with 3 feedings a day of a top quality cichlid food. Even in a 20g long it should have grown and inch and a half to two inches in 3 months.

If the LFS will take it back, that may be your best option.

There are quite a few dwarf SA cichlids that would suite a 20 gallon long tank. My avatar is a picture of my male Laetacara (dwarf acara) dorsigera, which is fully grown at 3 inches/8 centimeters. That photo's a year old, he has since developed some very nice fin trailers, and has purple and orange trim to his fins.

If you do return her to your LFS, come back and talk to us about possible tank inhabitants and tank setup. Many SA fish like driftwood and plants rather than rock structures, even if it simply Anubis attached to Malaysian driftwood.


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## jgentry (Jul 3, 2008)

DeadFishFloating said:


> Hi *newbiechick*,
> 
> It definately looks deformed I'm sorry to say. I know this may be hard to hear, but it may be best if the fish was euthanasiad.
> 
> ...


You can't be serious? You want him to put an healthy fish down becuase it hasn't grown as fast as you think it should?

It looks like a well fed female GT to me. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no reason to get rid of it or kill. Female GT's can be notorious slow growers. I have a wild female that is growing at a very similiar pace to yours. They will often grow very slowly then all at once hit a growth spurt. It is also possible that it spawned with another male at in the sellers or stores tank. If that is the case the early breeding can really stunt there growth.

I can't believe people are telling you to put this fish down when there is nothing health wise wrong with it :-?


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## gnomemagi (Jun 13, 2009)

Also seems like a female GT, although it may be too early to really sex the fish.

As said above, GTs do indeed grow slowly - I would give it some more time. You like the fish - thats the important part, not whether it has a Blue Acara cross in it or not.


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## Lancerlot (Feb 22, 2006)

gnomemagi said:


> Also seems like a female GT, although it may be too early to really sex the fish.
> 
> As said above, GTs do indeed grow slowly - I would give it some more time. You like the fish - thats the important part, not whether it has a Blue Acara cross in it or not.


If u look at the 3rd picture u can vent her


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## gnomemagi (Jun 13, 2009)

Aha! :lol: A female it is.


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## newbiechick (Apr 2, 2009)

Actually when I bought her you could tell straight away she was a female, which is what I wanted. 

My main concern now is that, if she is a cross are health problems pretty much guaranteed in the future?

Thanks for your help guys...


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## swamptrout (Jul 2, 2007)

hi newbiechick, health issues (if any) are not going to be any different to those that affect a pure bred fish. Only problem that some people have is that it is a hybrid fish - if it later gets bred with a GT then the offspring will be sold off as pure GT's when clearly they are not.

where in syd you from?


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Hey *jgentry*,

Like *Lancerlot*, when I look at the pics provided by *newbiechick* the shape of her GT looks wrong. I does not look like a normal 2 inch GT. There is also a difference between growing slowly and not growing at all. If you read *newbiechick's* first post, you'll note she has said it hasn't grown for a couple of months, not that it's growing slowly.

As for recommended euthanasia, well I forgot which forum I was on. Here in Australia, on our local forums, it's very common for experienced keepers/hobbyiests to recommend that any slightly malformed, deformed fish or runts to be put down. We have very restrictive import laws on many cichlids, therefore there is great concern to keep bloodlines _"clean"_, to preserve the purity of our cichlids. We never know when new or wild cuaght bloodlines will be available to mix in with our current stock.

There are quite a few examples of impure bloodlines here in the Australian hobby and LFS industry. The main ones being our _mutt_ electric yellows, Geophagus araguaia & Geophagus tapajos being gross bred so that now most LFS will only sell "orange heads" now instead of the locational variant, no one here thinks our Red terrors are a pure breed any more. And like I mentioned earlier, the common Blue acaras here are thought to have been mixed with GT's.

Now *newbiechick* may not be intending to spawn her GT, but quite often this how crossbreads or undesirable fish enter our LFS. Hobbyiests don't intend for thier fish to spawn, but they do and then they want to be rid of the fry. They take the juveniles to a LFS who buys them on the cheap, and then the LFS sells them on. Except a couple of months down the track it becomes evident that the fish are deformed, but the LFS continues to sell them to recover the money they spent buying them. There are some very poor quality geo's for sale in 3 LFS at the moment, they have crooked/bent spines, but the LFS are selling them cheap becuase they want to recoup thier money.

But I guess this whole discussion goes back to whether *newbiechick's* GT is malformed or looks fine.


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## jgentry (Jul 3, 2008)

I agree completely with trying to keep lines strong and pure. I also am a strong advocate of culling weak and deformed fry :thumb: . This is an absolute requirement of people that breed aquarium fish of any kind. I however think you are seeing a bunch of deformities that are not there in this fish. Also, you have zero ways to know that this fish is a hybrid. Have you seen it's blood lines? Do you know were it came from? If you do not them you are simply guessing based on what you see. I have had the pleasure of keeping a couple of wild GT and all of them are different depending upon there collection area. I had a really chuncky gold saum pair for a long time and now have a silver saum pair that is very long bodied and completely different looking. I have kept several female GT and it is very common for one to pretty much not grow to any visible amount for a few months. They often have a huge growth spurt at some point and grow several inches over a short time. I have had 2 separate females do this.

I hope I don't come across as rude, becuase I'm not trying to be. Just not seeing what you guys are seeing 

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about the Geo's but am very interested to here more if you don't mind sharing. Are you saying that the Geophagus are hybrids or are they just weak from inbreeding or not labled correctly. I am unaware of any geophagus crossing. Always interesting to here how things our aquarium wise in other places.


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## newbiechick (Apr 2, 2009)

I had no idea my post would lead to this kind of discussion...I thought someone would suggest a different kind of frozen food and that would be it :?

As for getting a spawn later on, thats not going to happen. I started off with a 'wet pet' in mind and will be sticking to that. I'm most probably not going to be returning her to the store, just want to see where this goes. If she remains stunted at 3-4" thats fine, she'll just be a weird dwarf cichlid.

After all she seems otherwise perfectly healthy, puts on amazing colours whenever I put in the blackworms and is happy schooling with the tetras :lol:

hey swamptrout I've moved to Perth now...guess I should change it in my profile...


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

*jgentry*,

Geophagus araguaia "orange heads" and Geophagus tapajos "orange heads" will cross breed. The problem here is whether they are locational variants of the same species or different species. The general feeling here in Australia is that they be treated as different species, thus crossbreeds are undesirable. Unfortunately quite a number of araguaia have been sold as tapajos and crosses have occured. When you see the the two species side by side, the differences are quite noticeble.

http://eartheaters.qldaf.com/index.php?page=orangehead

The same will occur with the different locational variants of Geophagus altifrons. The problem here is whether you look at an altifrons and see an altifrons or see a locaional variant. And whether you believe it's acceptable for different variants to be mixed or not.

Secondly we do sometimes see geophagus with bent spines for sale in LFS. There are a couple of hypothesis for they have bent spines, but inbreeding is not one of them. One theory I have heard from LFS owners/employees is becuase of the relative high carbonate hardness of our water combined with lack of water changes. What ever is cuasing the deformaties, bent spines, and/or short and/or high bodies is a result, but not notice able untill they reach around 1.5 to 2+ inches TL.


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## jgentry (Jul 3, 2008)

Very interesting.

To my knowledge we do not even have Geophagus araguaia in the states. I have never seen them available, only tapajos so I guess that is why it has never came up. Has DNA testing been done on the 2 to prove if they are the same? If not you definately want to keep them separate until something can be proven. Altifrons are not much of an issue over here of late because nobody is offerring anything other then Tapajos. To much politcal **** to be able to get any of the other ones right now other then the very few people breeding them. Tocantins can be found but that is it. I suspect that most of the altifrons if DNA tested would prove to be the same fish. There are a couple that display very different traits that would probably be grouped differently in my mind if when DNA is done. I have 2 alfifrons from manaus that I cannot find more of and they are very different from tapajos or tocanitins.

I would suspect the stores dirty water is causing the late deformities. Everything I have raised displayes these type of things by 0.75". Eitherway the stores hould be more responsible and not sell the fish. They should be food for the stores wetpet.

I guess the bottom line is everyone needs to be more responsible.


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

The deformaties are coming from the breeder. I know this for a fact, as I've been to his place and saw a batch previous to the current one and mentioned to him that they should be culled. He bought my breeding pair to add to his bloodlines. When I saw some of these fish for sale in my LFS, I asked if xxxx had sold them the fish and they said yes.

Now as to whether araguaia are available in the USA well that's a sticky issue. I believe that many of the "orange heads" I see here on C-F are far more likely to araguaia rather than tapajos. However, rather get my head bitten off, I keep my mouth shut. But I believe if you were to use Thomas Weidners differences between the two species, well you may come to the same conclusion. All I can say is read the descriptions and look at the photo's provided in the EartheaterAustralia link and make your own mind up.

Then of course Heiko Bleher throws his two cents woth into the discussion;


> Now first of all I wanted to tell you all that there is a big error in locality for one of those mentione here. Please note for the sake of identification:
> 
> 1. Geophagus sp. (or G. proximus variant, as explained in m book on page 269 and provisionally identified by S. O. Kullander) with a pink (or light orange) coloured head is from the TapajÃ³s river - I collected it there myself and introduced the very first into the hobby.
> 2. Geophagus sp. (also classified at this time as G. proximus variant) with a almost red head (some times bright red, as shown with the specimen I collected in the Rio Arapiuns - an black water affluent of the TapajÃ³s - and introduced as well is the ONLY second varinat known from the so called Geophagus sp. "Orange-Head".
> ...


Now Weidner quite clearly states Geophagus araguaia sp. "orange head". When we (Aussies) say araguaia, we are reffering to the Rio Araguaia, which is the main tributary of the Rio Tocantins as is clearly seen on any map of Brazil. So Heiko's post cuases a little confussion when he says the araguaia is a Xingu affluent, which it is not by any map. Of course then Weidner dillutes the water when he says that no one can confirm these fish are from the Rio Araguaia, as he only went by a couple of examples of the species that were in a fellow hobbiests tanks and were purported to have been collected from the Rio Araguaia. :?

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?hl=en&rl ... a=N&tab=wl

Confused yet?


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## newbiechick (Apr 2, 2009)

:-? :-? new thread :-? :-?


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

You're right *newbiechick*. Very sorry about this.


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## newbiechick (Apr 2, 2009)

Oh thats alright DeadFishFloating, I appreciate your advice... :thumb:

One last question, maybe one of the mods can chime in...is she most likely a GT or a cross?


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## newbiechick (Apr 2, 2009)

My GT/Acara whatever she is has laid eggs in her growout tank where she is by herself, is this normal? I noticed her vent was quite pronounced yesterday and she was constantly rubbing and clearing out a rock face.

She's only about 3", does her laying eggs mean that she is stunted?


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

No, not stunted ... though her growth might slow down a bit if she's giving energy over to egg laying.


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## cichlidfeesh (Apr 6, 2009)

Agreed with dwarfpike. I've seen this behavior in many female fish just to lay unfertilized eggs for the sake of it. They do tend to slow in growth because of this. I'm not sure how long it takes to develop eggs for a GT, but this is probably a big clue to your original problem.

-As a side note, I would recommend black substrate for GT's if you want to see better colors.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

I'd like to throw out another possibility.

"Green Terror" is a common/hobby name, not a scientific one. A. Rivulatus is the scientific name---and even that is used incorrectly to describe more than one distinct species. The original "true" green terror is a distinctly different species than the fish that is considered the green terror today....and the edge coloring of the fins are not what distinguish them. There are several fish included in the "green terror" complex, and at least one is reported to be a "dwarf" species.

To make things even more confusing, there are many acara type fish that are similar in coloration to "green terrors." And they do occasionally come onto the market.

At one time, I had 3 distinctly different fish species (all males), that were sold as "green terrors."
To someone not very familiar with the "common" version, they all could be mistaken for the same species. But they were definitely different fish---and the differences became even more apparent as they grew.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

*oldcatfish* - Heh, I thought I was the only one that remembered those dwarf green terrors from the late eighties/early nineties. Though I haven't seen any since then. They are deffinately differant than the deformed short bodied green terrors seen today.

Now that the blue acara group has it's own genus, _Andinoacara_, hopefully someone will work on the green terror minicomplex within it.


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## newbiechick (Apr 2, 2009)

This seems to be more complicated than I thought...its just a waiting game I guess, see how she does once I mover her into large tank just for her.

Thanks for the info guys, I really appreciate it... :thumb:


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## Donnixd (Sep 13, 2009)

DeadFishFloating said:


> Hi *newbiechick*,
> 
> I believe they came from the wholesaler/importer BayFish. If you do want to look for a new fish I would ask a reputable LFS and see if they could order some fish from BayFish, perticularly thier Melbourne operation.
> 
> Australian Cichlid Enthusiasts Forum.


Hey DFF, can a regular person buy fishes from Bayfish or you need to own a Local fish shop? i'm wanting to buy some SA at the Mel branch..


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## DeadFishFloating (Oct 9, 2007)

Hey *Donnixd*,

BayFish won't deal with the general public. Most LFS should order from BayFish for you. However BayFish has denied access to thier website for the general public. So we can't even see what they have in stock. The Melbourne facility does bring in a lot of SA cichlids, especially dwarf SA's.

There is a large Melbourne contingent on Discus Forums, and a couple of them have very good relationships with thier LFS. Look for *Hassles* in the Dwarf Cichlid Discussion forum, as he has contacts with a few LFS in Melbourne.


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## Donnixd (Sep 13, 2009)

ah ty DeadFishFloating. i'll def check it out

p.s srry for somewhat trailing away from the post's topic


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