# Discus, size aquarium and maintenance



## aggriffin3 (Aug 15, 2009)

Hi, at the moment I have a 40 gallon breeder 36x16x18. Is this tank too small for a pair or quad of Discus in your opinion. I have 4 yellow labs and 3 rusties in there that have been very healthy for the full yr. that I have had them. So the next question would be, how much more maintenance on this tank is required if I did go with a Discus tank seeing that what I have done now for the Cichlids in there seems to be working.

Thanks

Art

P.S. And are there some Discus that are more hardy than others?


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## SCARF_ACE1981 (Sep 27, 2004)

i hope you aren't planning to mix discus with mbuna

discus are very shy. besides they like totally different water parameters


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

The rule on discus is you never do less than 5 and you reserve 10 gallons per fish. This means the minimum tank would be a 55 gallon. The only alteration to this rule involves a confirmed breeding pair, in which case the pair can be kept in a 20 gallon.

Discus are an expensive fish. The last thing you want to do is be in violation of either of these two base rules. Otherwise your chance of success after spending anywhere from $100 to $200 on fish is pretty slim.

The work with Discus is up front. As babies and juviniles, they require outstanding water quality, which involves maintaining very low levels of dissolved organics and nitrates. This means lots of water changes (I'm talking 25%+ daily). Once adults, they are more forgiving as to water quality, but will likely require more effort than you are accustomed to. If you are not willing to put forth this effort, I would not recommend Discus.


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## aggriffin3 (Aug 15, 2009)

No, I was going to get rid of the Mbuna's but I will think this through really good before I just jump into it. Thanks for the input.

Art


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

I agree with kmuda with the possible exception of 5 Discus... I've seen 5 fail, just as four will. 
Personally I vote for 1 Discus, or a bare minimum of 6, minimum of 7. 
If I were you griffin, I'd buy 8 for a 100g tank and keep that 40g breeder for a pair that forms so that you can watch them breed and raise fry! 
Just a thought!


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Sorry number6 but imo a single discus is a bad advice. Discus do best in groups of 6 or more and only exeption is a proven stable pair. A 40 gallon breeder is nice for a breeding pair of discus.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Dutch Dude said:


> and only exeption is a proven stable pair


I don't know if we've discussed this in th past or not, but I totally disagree... I've owned a single Discus in a community tank and I've known several who have as well... and I've owned groups of Discus.

From my personal direct experiences; behavior wise, health wise, etc. the single Discus was an exact match for the large group with the obvious exception of laying infertile eggs.

I am open to any information that you have that says a single Discus is affected in "this or that" way. If you have no information about the affects of solitude life on a Discus, then why challenge me with zero info?


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## redblufffishguy (Jul 16, 2009)

I have an 80 gallon (48") tank with 4 discus and several other fish living very happily in it. The discus are about 3 years old, and I get eggs at least once a month. I do bi-monthly water changes.

I have never seen any agression or any other problem with them. There has never been illness.

My friend breeds them in 20 gallon long tanks. He grows the fry in 20 long tanks as well until they are about dime sized and then moves them to a 75 gallon tank (48") to grow to dollar size and ready to sell. He usually has about 100 of them in the 75 gallon tank. He does water changes every 4-5 days.

_*My point is, no rule is set in stone.*_

I say go for it, put a few in the tank. Make sure the water quality is stellar! Keep a close eye on them! If you start to see a problem take action.

If I had never tried to keep tanks that people said wouldn't work, I would probably still have a 20 gallon tank with tetras and a plec.

RBFG


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*redblufffishguy*
Although I agree with you in principle, there is nothing sadder than watching Discus grow up and hit that age when the three pick on the one to death, then move to the next, etc. until there is only one.

It is how I arrived at my one setup with a single Discus... and it wasn't fun, although I did enjoy that fish afterwards! I can't go with the exceptions (like your experience) as sage advice. Any number under 5 fails more often than it succeeds from both my personal experience and years of shared experiences on the forums. I also cannot say that since 4 worked in an 80g tank that "x" could work in a far smaller tank. We all know that rarely holds true.

Griffin... you will have to take the differing opinions you've heard and decide. You have redbluffguy far on one side, Dutchdude far to the other and my experiences somewhere in between. If you go for it, be sure to post back on here with your experiences so we can all see how it played out. 
:thumb:


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

Number6 said:


> Although I agree with you in principle, there is nothing sadder than watching Discus grow up and hit that age when the three pick on the one to death, then move to the next, etc. until there is only one.


Well said.... :thumb:

The only remaining point I will make is that I would consider it unlikely that "one" would have ever survived to be enjoyed had it not had the others with it as they were growing up. As a solo, I don't think it ever would have "hit that age".

I do not disagree with the "6" number. With Discus, more is absolutely better and with 5, if you loose one of them, you are down below what I consider the minimum. Not a good place to be.


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## nhra_20 (Mar 22, 2010)

not to interrupt this thread, but I was at a LFS the other day and theyt had a tank with discus and angel fish in the same tank. This is something I would like to do since I have a tank with angels in it, but with 6 being the minumim general rule, is it okay to add say one or two at a time? Or is it best to do all six at same time?? And is a 54 gallon corner tank bow front okay till I get a bigger tank??


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

As a general rule, it is not recommended to combine Angels and Discus as Angels are notorious for carrying diseases for which they are immune but Discus are not. That said, it is commonly done although Discus enthusiast will cring if you bring it up. I absolutely would not recommending keeping young angels and young discus in the same tank.

When buying the Discus, it is important you get them all at once.... in that the baby/juvie discus are less stressed in numbers. If you only get two, they will be in constant stress. With Discus, stress usually equals death.

The key to discus is getting them grown. Once grown, they are not drastically different (in care) than other fish. But they can be difficult to care for to adulthood. So you take every advantage you can. Which includes initial stocking at the right level.

My philosophy is you only stock to the tank you have. Not the tank you plan to get as those plans have a habit of never becoming reality and you're left with a problem. Once the hobby becomes a problem, people tend to leave it.


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## redblufffishguy (Jul 16, 2009)

I agree number 6.... the full spectrum of experiances have been listed....use the info, and make a decision one way or the other!

RBFG


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

see now i can get discus pretty cheap, but i'd probably never breed them


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

> I am open to any information that you have that says a single Discus is affected in "this or that" way. If you have no information about the affects of solitude life on a Discus, then why challenge me with zero info?


My goodness,....it is not abouth challenging you number6! To me it is abouth a solid and save advice towards the OP.

I kept a Stendker alenquer for around 3 months as only discus in a tank. It was shy, ate just enough to stay alive and absolutely not happy. As soon as he received a bunch of half grown discus, he started to feed heavy, became the dominant fish, changed to brighter and stronger colors,...sign of a happy discus. But hey,...who ame I.

My expirience is no exeption and most experts and knowledgeble people advice against a single discus.

If someone jumps from a 30 feet high building without breaking a single bone doesn't mean everyone can do it without injuries. The chance is fairly large it will go wrong. I refuse to give an advice with such a risk!


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Dutch Dude said:


> My goodness,....it is not abouth challenging you number6!


ah but you do... rudely at times as well. 



Dutch Dude said:


> I kept a Stendker alenquer for around 3 months as only discus in a tank. It was shy, ate just enough to stay alive and absolutely not happy. As soon as he received a bunch of half grown discus, he started to feed heavy, became the dominant fish, changed to brighter and stronger colors,...sign of a happy discus.


I do not challenge your personal experience... I accept it and would agree that one does have to have a Discus with the right personality for the solitary life. My recipe for finding such a Discus is tried and true... watch the tank full of young Discus (3" is best, but 2" and up works) and one will stand out as very aggressive... get that one! This advice has been followed by many and I've had folks check back in with me years later saying all was great. Are we all mad? deluded? :lol:



Dutch Dude said:


> most experts and knowledgeble people advice against a single discus.


this I will challenge... I don't know how you poll the "experts" but I have frequented many a Discus forum and although less popular an option than groups of Discus, I've not seen any articles nor many threads saying that single Discus setups cannot work. Perhaps there has been these sorts of threads in more recent years?

I must say that you tempt me to setup a single Discus planted tank again because you've reminded me how enjoyable it was and I can take photos and document how it can be achieved. 
Perhaps.... 8)


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

People like Dick Au and Heiko Bleher for example. Are those enough expert number6? It is fine by me and do wat you want to do.


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## redblufffishguy (Jul 16, 2009)

Dutch,

Whats up?? You have taken this thread so far off topic that your posts now seem like attacks and are getting quite rediculous!

I have never kept more than 4 discus in a tank, and I agree with 6.... a single discus tank with plants would be very cool!!!!

Chill out dude!


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## aggriffin3 (Aug 15, 2009)

I visited the LFS yesterday, and although nothing is absolutely written in stone with all the rules that are given on fish, I think I will go with the percentages and wait till I get a bigger tank so I can add the minimum 6 that was perscribed to me by some in here and the LFS expert.

Thanks for all the info. By the way, is there money to be had in breeding Discus? Is there enough of a market to make it profitable?

Art


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## redblufffishguy (Jul 16, 2009)

Tons of money to be had.... But make sure you have room for lots of tanks!!!


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

A single discus tank would indeed be cool and in reach for more people. Those who did proper research on discus know it is a social animal living in famely like groups of around 30 fish. Putting only 6 in a 75 gallon is already quit a compromise but it gives enough stability within a small social group. A single discus can not build a pair bond and no social bond. It often feels unsafe by it's own cousing stress, cousing poor appetite and eventualy cousing illnesses. A single discus often wasts away over time. To every "rule" are some exceptions but imo it is wrong to promote those exceptions especialy to people new to discus. I kept a pair of discus for 5 months in with a group of Guianacara. My aqua scape and expirienced helped in achieving this combination. Dough I will never advice such a combination becouse not everyone is expirienced or knowledged enough to do the same. So all the advice I give on a board like this is based on "save" and solid advice.

Discus should be kept in groups of 6 or more and a proven stable pair is the exeption. Sometimes 4 or 5 works out as well but more often it doesn't. I did not made this up and I did not do this discovery. People far more expirienced (the discus experts like I mentioned before) already made this discoveries decades ago and my own expiriences subscribe to this.

I don't think I brought this off topic becouse the discusion was abouth a number of discus for a 40 gallon breeder and "one single discus" was brought up as possibility.



> Whats up??


Maybe I'm tired of defending my expirienses and advice. Thats why I post so rarely on C-F while before I was one of the frequent posters.

@ Art,....you received solid advice. I suggest not to go smaller as a 75 gallon for 6 discus and while you are saving money for a new tank and fish,...read read read :thumb: If you look for a way to earn some extra money discus breeding small scale won't be it. You need lots of space, you will consume lots of water, electric energy, time and hard work to only earn back your expenses and maybe 1 or 2 $ for each fish. It does contribute to your knowledge dough and it is a great expirience. You can also make people happy with good qualety affordable discus. I suggest to check out www.simplydiscus.com

To number6 and redbluff,.... I hope I made my point of vieuw clear now. To you what to do with it. To me it isn't fun any more and it feels like wasting my time so I quit this discusion.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Dutch Dude said:


> Those who did proper research on discus know it is a social animal living in famely like groups of around 30 fish.


 It is lines such as this that are simply rude and unfounded. 
I am well aware of how Discus live in groups of related individuals in the wild, and how a pair forms and how they swim off together to spawn,etc. I am also aware of the nuances of a Discus' instinct and how it can be applied to keeping this (normally) social fish as a solitary Discus, but not as a solitary animal. I am well aware of what drives shoaling instinct and have read countless studies on shoaling behavior, the drivers, and the disruptors. I've applied this knowledge to many species of shoaling fish and found some interesting things...

Dick Au and Heiko are very experienced and avid Discus experts. (Did you know that they disagree on some topics with each other? )I respect their opinions... but I don't take them as the "end of the pursuit of knowledge". I would challenge them and have done on different topics. I know the limits of my knowledge and lack of experience, so my questioning stays at a healthy and respectful level. If either of them ever showed a disdain for new information from the likes of folks like me, they would drop quite a few notches in the level of respect I currently hold them in. Fortunately they do not disregard nor insult those with differing opinions... they may not agree, and might suggest I consider x, y, or z... and I would definately listen. 
:thumb:

Dutchdude... you are always welcome to disagree with me, or anyone else... but might I suggest that you take a page out of the books of those you do hold in high regard and act a bit more like them?


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## Klave (May 4, 2010)

I think that I've seen a lot of different "amounts" of Discus in groups. 
Single Discus is out of my experience, not good, since they are a "group fish" and tend to "fade" away alone.

I started with 4 Discus a loooong time a go in a 125 gallon tank, and it worked really well,,then I got my hand on a huge Discus that turned out to be a male and also turned out to be a good "dad". 
I introduced him and 1 more Discus to the group and they got along fine after while,
the big male litterlly took over half the tank ( it was on this side I got a lot spawning and fry from this couple, NO I'm not starting that discussion again) with the one female and the rest of the group got the other half of the tank.

Now, on the other hand, I started with 2 Discus ( due to this lovely couple I saw at the LFS), then I added four more Discus and they were all juveniles ( 2 bigger and 2 little smaller) and now they are a happy group and the one pair is egglaying every other week, but not an experienced couple.

The funniest interaction in this tank is between the Rams and the Discus and the 2 smaller Discus really buddy with the Rams.


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## redblufffishguy (Jul 16, 2009)

Well said 6!


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Klave said:


> I think that I've seen a lot of different "amounts" of Discus in groups.
> Single Discus is out of my experience, not good, since they are a "group fish" and tend to "fade" away alone.


A very positive way to post and disagree with one of my suggestions. :thumb:

Interesting that 4 did well in a large enough aquarium. We now have two examples of fewer than 6 (but in an aquarium large enough for 8 or more) doing well.

It almost makes me rethink my standard advice of 6 or more...


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## Klave (May 4, 2010)

Well,,

Nature is not "exact" IMHO, and I've seen so many settings that should not "work" and they did and the other way around with settings that should just be fine and they turn disaster.

I think also that the best group of Discus is 5 - 6 or more depending on tank, but my 4 Discus 125 gallon tank worked just fine and what they did was that they bonded together and just really swam around as a group in this tank, no problems what so ever.
The "problem" I got in there was when I put this big male in there that started to really dominate the tank in really god-ol' cichlid manner .

I have this new rig with FM, new experience to me and I have 6 in a 55 gallon and I will readily report about my progress in this tank as I tag along in the CA forum.


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