# Fishless Cycle



## DanLong (Feb 2, 2018)

I'm doing a fishless cycle on my 125. I seeded it with some media and filter pads from my 46 gallon. Followed the procedure from the library on doing the cycle. I got some ammonium chloride powder as I couldn't find pure ammonia anywhere local.

It's been 10 days and my ammonia is still where it was on day 1. I was hoping with the seed media that I'd have some action by now, but nothing so far.

I know I just need to be patient, but if anyone has done this before, how long did it take before the ammonia dropped, especially if you used media from another tank? It wasn't a lot- just a small bag of ceramic and 2 old filter pads I took out of a canister.

Here's a pic of the tank. Lots of DIY components- lights, stand, filter. The stand isn't done yet, I have some nice wood to wrap it with. There is an identical 125 going right next to it that will be Africans. This one is going to be a community, some Red Head Geos that I have a line on locally from a guy who has 2" young ones, a couple pairs of dwarf cichlids, some angelfish, and schools of cardinals and corys.


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## Filet O Fish (Apr 26, 2012)

My 75 took about 12 days for the drop, but with no added media... I kept the ammo between 2-3 ppm. Curious about this myself as I've never seeded from another filter. Well, good luck. Looks like it's going to be a cool aquarium.


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## Old Newbie (Feb 18, 2017)

I started a 40 gallon breeder last winter using media from one of my established canister filters; it still took 3 weeks for the cycle to complete; my guess is that without well established bacteria though out the tank, the tank is not cycled well enough to process ammonia and nitrite. Hang in there, it will happen.


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## DanLong (Feb 2, 2018)

The ammonia has dropped to about 2ppm, but no nitrites at all yet.


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## Filet O Fish (Apr 26, 2012)

How much ammonia did you start with?


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## DanLong (Feb 2, 2018)

I started w/ 4ppm.


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## Filet O Fish (Apr 26, 2012)

That's good. Just hang in there man.

Oh, raise the temperature to 84-85...


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## DanLong (Feb 2, 2018)

I know... lol. I'll divert my attention from it today by finishing up the sump and plumbing for the other 125.


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## Filet O Fish (Apr 26, 2012)

Things that help the cycle:
Water aeration
Higher temperature
Good bio filtration (I'm using Seachem matrix)
Water movement
Faith....


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## DanLong (Feb 2, 2018)

less than .5ppm today, but still zero on the nitrites.


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## forkman (May 29, 2018)

I have had success wit API Quick Start. Others seem to like Dr. Tim's bacteria. I have also heard that ATM has a good bacteria product. I have cycled 2 different tanks in approx. 2 weeks using API Quick Start. It seems to quickly start converting ammonia to nitrites, but then nitrites seem to hang around for awhile before nitrates begin to show. If nitrites are still present once nitrates begin to show up at around 20ppm, I would do 25% water changes daily until nitrites were at zero. This process worked for me, but others may have better ideas.


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## DanLong (Feb 2, 2018)

Zero ammonia after my last post. I redosed it yesterday per the instructions. Still no nitrites.


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## forkman (May 29, 2018)

If you are using API Master Test Kit, I would start looking at the integrity of your nitrite test chemicals. Nitrites should certainly be present especially if you are readin 0 ammonia. That ammonia had to go somewhere.


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## forkman (May 29, 2018)

One thing to maybe consider is that your bacteria colony is stronger than you think and ammonia is quickly converted to nitrates. Have you been testing for nitrates?


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## DanLong (Feb 2, 2018)

I dosed with ammonia on Thursday and it was 4ppm yesterday when I tested. This morning it's down to 2ppm, but still no nitrites. I also tested with a 2nd kit I have just in case the nitrite test isn't giving correct results, and it came back with zero as well.

I did a nitrate test, they are at 5ppm, not much, but more than the zero you'd expect at this point in the cycle.


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## forkman (May 29, 2018)

I had a somewhat similar experience. I had what I thought was a very low reading for nitrates, then I shook my #2 nitrate bottle for a solid minute. I also banged it on the counter to release any crystals in the bottle. I tested again and much to my surprise, I had 40 ppm nitrates. Again, just my experience, but maybe worth a try. Hang in there.


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## DanLong (Feb 2, 2018)

And the strangeness continues... I dosed ammonia on Friday after a zero reading, to "feed" the bacteria. Tested Saturday and Sunday- 4ppm. Tested today- 2ppm. Still zero nitrites or nitrates.

So it's taken 3 days for it to drop 2ppm, I thought once there were bacteria there that the ammonia should go to zero in 24 hours or so?

I started the same cycle on my 125g African tank yesterday, dosed w/ammonia and rinsed out a filter sponge from my 46g in the sump to get some bacteria in there.


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## forkman (May 29, 2018)

Not sure what is happening with your tank. The only difference I see between your tank and mine, is if I remember correctly, you used a powder form of ammonia and I used liquid. I don't know if that could make a difference or not. I found my ammonia at ACE Hardware. Did you try banging your nitrate #2 bottle against a hard surface and shaking the heck out of it?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

It does not go to zero until enough bacteria have grown.


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## DanLong (Feb 2, 2018)

DJRansome said:


> It does not go to zero until enough bacteria have grown.


It did go to zero, it took about 2 weeks. Then I waited a day, and added more ammonia. Now 3 days later it's still at 2ppm. I expected that it'd turn around from 4ppm to zero in 24hrs or so (based on the article), and my nitrites would be elevated and that part of the cycle would start.


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## ironspider (Dec 5, 2017)

DanLong said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> > It does not go to zero until enough bacteria have grown.
> ...


I had the same problems with my cycle. Went to zero but then it just stopped. I basically started over at that point and added different bio media to the canister (those ceramic rings.) Added ammonia as instructed, then water changes and finally somehow it worked out. So I suggest starting over basically. Use a half of the original dose every other day and go from there, you'll eventually be able to dose up.

My cycling took about 8-10 weeks, longer than it should have.


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## DanLong (Feb 2, 2018)

ironspider, I'm not sure what to do about media, I have about 15lbs of lava rock that was new for this tank along with a couple dozen scrubby sponges. I have a bag of ceramic rings I took from my other tank to seed it. My ph is a little low, around 6.7, I could increase it if that will help but it's right where I want it for the fish that are going in here. The article only talks about if the ph is under 6 that there could be issues.


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## Old Newbie (Feb 18, 2017)

DanLong said:


> I dosed with ammonia on Thursday and it was 4ppm yesterday when I tested. This morning it's down to 2ppm, but still no nitrites. I also tested with a 2nd kit I have just in case the nitrite test isn't giving correct results, and it came back with zero as well.
> 
> I did a nitrate test, they are at 5ppm, not much, but more than the zero you'd expect at this point in the cycle.


You can make yourself crazy testing for nitrites and nitrates too early. Just test for ammonia for now, once it goes from 4 ppm to 0 ppm consistently over night start testing for nitrite. Once nitrite goes to 0 ppm overnight, test for nitrate.


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## DanLong (Feb 2, 2018)

Old Newbie- that sounds like a good plan. It does get frustrating, I want to stock this tank!


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## ironspider (Dec 5, 2017)

DanLong said:


> Old Newbie- that sounds like a good plan. It does get frustrating, I want to stock this tank!


I feel your pain. It drove me crazy.


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## Old Newbie (Feb 18, 2017)

DanLong said:


> Old Newbie- that sounds like a good plan. It does get frustrating, I want to stock this tank!


Unfortunately, cycling properly takes time. There is a way to help things along; I have used SmartStart Complete in the past with good results, others have used it with varying results. Here is a thread from this forum talking about the product:
https://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/vie ... 6&t=431409


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## DanLong (Feb 2, 2018)

I'm going to do the patience route, rather than adding more stuff to the tank. Ammonia was zero last night. Dosed it this morning.Hopefully the turnaround time for it to go back to zero will keep getting shorter. 2 weeks the 1st time, a week this time.


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## DanLong (Feb 2, 2018)

Much faster turnaround, had .25ppm yesterday, zero today, so it took 3 days. Dosed it again today.


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## DanLong (Feb 2, 2018)

And..... we have nitrites! The ammonia I put in yesterday is zero today and my nitrites are sky high. Welcome phase 2 of the cycle!


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## Old Newbie (Feb 18, 2017)

DanLong said:


> And..... we have nitrites! The ammonia I put in yesterday is zero today and my nitrites are sky high. Welcome phase 2 of the cycle!


Hang in there!


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## DanLong (Feb 2, 2018)

Today I tested, after adding 4ppm ammonia yesterday, zero left today and the nitrites are also much lower, .5 and they were 5 yesterday. I wonder if this part will go faster due to the seeded media I used.

The 2nd tank finally ate its 1st batch of ammonia and I re-dosed that yesterday. Between 2-4ppm today on the test.


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## Old Newbie (Feb 18, 2017)

DanLong said:


> Today I tested, after adding 4ppm ammonia yesterday, zero left today and the nitrites are also much lower, .5 and they were 5 yesterday. I wonder if this part will go faster due to the seeded media I used.
> 
> The 2nd tank finally ate its 1st batch of ammonia and I re-dosed that yesterday. Between 2-4ppm today on the test.


Once the nitrites start dropping the cycle finishes fairly quickly.


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## DanLong (Feb 2, 2018)

zero/zero/zero today on ammonia/nitrites/nitrates. I added ammonia and will test tomorrow. I expect at some point the nitrates will start to rise but have not seen it yet.

On the other 125, that one had 3ppm ammonia yesterday. Zero today and nitrites were about .5- so that one is going into phase 2 of its cycle.This one was much faster than the 1st. Same filtration, media, even the seed media was from the same tank. I think the higher PH is the difference.

If I can get tank 1 to cycle ammonia and nitrites in 24 hours for a week or so straight, I'm going to get some fish.

Now... I have a decent colony growing in there if it can take 4ppm ammonia and eat it in 24hours. What do you think happens with stocking it with fish? I'm planning on probably 50 fish in here, mostly small ones with the Angels and Geos. If I do a partial stock, the colony will shrink, then if I add more fish would I expect a spike in the numbers and stress to the fish?

Or would you fully stock it all at once?


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## forkman (May 29, 2018)

The interesting part from your post is that you have 0 across the board, even with nitrates. The nitrites should be converting to nitrates at this point. Did you try shaking your #2 nitrate bottle vigorously for about a minute? I would also try banging it against a hard surface to dislodge any crystals in the bottle. You may be surprised with your nitrate reading after doing so, I know I was the first time I cycled a tank.


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## glickster (Jul 19, 2018)

forkman said:


> The interesting part from your post is that you have 0 across the board, even with nitrates. The nitrites should be converting to nitrates at this point. Did you try shaking your #2 nitrate bottle vigorously for about a minute? I would also try banging it against a hard surface to dislodge any crystals in the bottle. You may be surprised with your nitrate reading after doing so, I know I was the first time I cycled a tank.


Agreed. My Nitrates were at 40 ppm when the cycle finished. Been staying between 20-40 with water changes.


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## DanLong (Feb 2, 2018)

Yes, I had read about the vigorous shaking/banging of #2 before. I have 2 test kits so I can try another. We'll see how it looks today when I test, I added 4ppm ammonia yesterday.


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## DanLong (Feb 2, 2018)

Update- during today's test, I used the other kit's nitrate test. I'm easily over 80 if not higher- the colors are close up at that end of the range. I'm going to chuck the nitrate chemicals in the other kit.

Ammonia was 1ppm and 0 nitrite. I tested ph again and it was back down to 6, it fell .5 since yesterday's test. I gotta find a way to get that stable.

the African tank ate all it's ammonia and the nitrites are about 1-2 ppm today. Looking good there. I think the higher ph really makes a difference on the environment for the bacteria colony.


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## forkman (May 29, 2018)

Sounds like you are cycled. Congrats!


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## DanLong (Feb 2, 2018)

Forkman, yup it seems like it. I just need to get the KH up enough to keep the PH from crashing. I'm looking at some potassium carbonate, it's supposed to raise the KH without increasing PH.

Gonna do a 30% water change today.


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## forkman (May 29, 2018)

I don't have any experience with kh. I know I should probably test for it. I perform 50% water changes weekly. I seem to accumulate about 15 ppm per week. So if I did a water change at 30 ppm and only did a 30% water change, I would end up at 21 ppm. After a weekly increase of 15 ppm, I would end up at 36 ppm. If I did a 30% change again, I would decrease that to about 25ppm. The next week of a 15 ppm increase ends up at 40 ppm and so on and so on. If I only performed 30% water changes, I would continue to increase and never get my nitrates under control. In the scenario above , if I performed a 50% water change when it was at 30 ppm, I would end up at 15 ppm. Add my normal 15 ppm weekly increase and I would end up at 30 ppm again. Another 50 % water change gets me back to 15 ppm. So a 50 % water change works for me and keeps my nitrates at a maximum 30 ppm. Everybody is different, but once you get your tank stocked and running for awhile, you may want to establish a weekly increase in nitrates and determine how much of a water change you will need to perform to keep your nitrates under control and make sure they don't continue to escalate by not doing a big enough water change. Others may have different input as to what works for them, but at this time a 50% weekly water change works for me.


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## DanLong (Feb 2, 2018)

We put the 1st 3 fish in today. A local guy had some red head and orange head Geophagus for sale. Got 3 that are about 2" long. They are doing well so far! Nitrates were around 20 this morning when I checked. I did about a 35% water change yesterday.

We ordered some fish from <vendor name removed> yesterday that should be here Tuesday. 10 each of Cardinal and Rummynose tetras, and 6 each of False Julii and Panda corys. We also have an order pending with angelmania for a dozen angelfish, they will probably be a couple weeks before we get them.


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## forkman (May 29, 2018)

Keep in mind that your nitrogen cycle may adjust slowly to an increase in bio load. Your next addition of 12 fish at one time could result in an ammonia spike. I added 4 fish at a time spaced one week apart. Let's hope your bacteria are populated enough to handle 12 fish at once. Good luck, sounds like you are off and running.


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## freshwaterhobby (Jul 14, 2018)

DanLong said:


> We put the 1st 3 fish in today. A local guy had some red head and orange head Geophagus for sale. Got 3 that are about 2" long. They are doing well so far! Nitrates were around 20 this morning when I checked. I did about a 35% water change yesterday.
> 
> We ordered some fish from <vendor name removed> yesterday that should be here Tuesday. 10 each of Cardinal and Rummynose tetras, and 6 each of False Julii and Panda corys. We also have an order pending with angelmania for a dozen angelfish, they will probably be a couple weeks before we get them.


Your tank is beautiful - hope you post more pictures once you have your fish settled in 

I have multiple freshwater tanks, and have been into this hobby for 15 years, but I still learned a ton from the back and forth conversations on this thread...thanks everyone!


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## DanLong (Feb 2, 2018)

Forkman, I'm definitely going to keep tabs in the parameters as we add fish. In addition to the 3 Geos, we had a little albino cory in our other tank who looks like he has not grown at all. We put him in the big tank last night and he went right to town going after some fungus that had sprouted on a piece of driftwood and swimming all over the place.

I guess there is no way to know what the expected bio load is when you do the fishless cycle.

We'll have 32 fish added this week between the tetras and corys. They are all going to be small, under 1" for the tetras so hopefully the tank volume will be able to cope with the load. We found out the angels will not be here til aug 8, which is good, it'll give the tetras as week to settle in and let the tank adjust.


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## DanLong (Feb 2, 2018)

Here's a pic of the new guys. Not the clearest pic. They are all over the place today, and they have cleaned up the sand from almost all of the debris that had accumulated while cycling. They love hiding in the wood and rockwork and dart across the bottom to the next safe place.


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## DanLong (Feb 2, 2018)

We added 20 small tetras and 10 corys yesterday. We lost a couple tetras over night, surely due to stress as they were shipped from CA to DE. Monitoring the water parameters. All good so far today, 0 ammonia and nitrite, 20ppm nitrates.


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