# Please Help Newbie - Should I do a cichlid tank?



## crabhead (Dec 19, 2013)

Hi all. First post here.

I want to set up a tank in the very near term and have spent the past several weeks reading and posting about this online. I've gradually moved toward being very interested in cichlids and would like your help to see if I should pull the trigger.

Some info about me:

• I'd like to produce a saltwater look (white sand, fake coral, shells, blue background, etc)
• Tap water PH: 7.4 - 7.6
• Hardness: 4.2 grains / gal (71.9 mg CaCO3/l or 4.0282 dH if I did the conversion correctly) = just barely "moderatley hard"
• I'd like to set up a small tank that does not require a ton of maintenance. I'd rather not have to use additives to adjust the water PH and hardness at every water change
• I'm considering dwarf cichlids (maybe shelldwellers - brevis, multis, ???)

Below is the list of components that I THINK I will purchase:

• 15 gallon aqueon tank (that's about as big as I am willing to go) http://www.aqueonproducts.com/assets...7984_400wh.jpg
• aquaclear quietflow 30 powered filter (200GPH) http://www.aqueonproducts.com/assets...0364_400wh.jpg
• 75 watt submersible heater with temperature dial (whichever brand is available...)
• a mercury thermometer with suction cup
• 2 inches of 50% play sand / 50% crushed coral/argonite
• a bunch of artificial coral or texas holey rock
• artifical plants & anenome
• 24' aqueon deluxe florescent hood http://www.aqueonproducts.com/assets...6881_400wh.jpg
• Turbo shells, whale eyed shells, escargot shells, hermit crab shells, anything similar to that size (2 or 3 shells for every shellie - Avoid shells that have too many spirals)

Questions: 

• Will cichlids work within my parameters?
• Which type and how many can I consider?
• Will they require a lot of maintenance (I understand shelldwellers don't like water changes more than every 2 - 3 weeks)?
• Are there any other fish that will work with the cichlids that occupy the higher levels of water?

Thanks for the help!


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

My main concern is that if you're trying to emulate a salt water tank I'm not sure shellies are the way to go. Don't get me wrong, they are cool fish, they just don't have the vidid colors of SW or even other african cichlids. If you want salt-water-like color look into mbuna or peacocks. These fish, however, would require a much larger tank. A single species tank could be done in a 40G, but that's as small as you could go. So for your sized tank shellies are a good option.

Shell-dwellers-and most african cichlids for that matter-should work find in your water parameters. Most fish in the hobby these days are tank raised and can adjust to a somewhat wide range of conditions. With the argonite and holey rock you should be just fine as far as hardness goes.

I would actually do pool filter sand instead of play sand. Play sand can contain father fine particules that don't settle very easily and can get damage your filter. Furthermore, most play sand I've seen isn't very white. I use PFS in my tanks and it works well and is a little whiter than play sand.

In a tank that small I'd say a breeding group of shellies would be enough. I'd go with 1m and 2-3f. That and a BN pleco would make a nice tank.

From what I've read and seen shellies are pretty hardy fish and don't require a ton of maintenance. Daily water feedings and weekly water changes are basically it besides occasional filter cleanings. You may want to get a water test kit and test your water frequently, especially in the beginning.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

You don't have particularly hard water. I'd consider adding a little bit of Seachem Malawi/Victoria buffer to every bucket full of water you refill with. It will increase pH, gH and kH slightly. It's inexpensive to use (buy the big jug of it, use a measuring spoon).

If you want to keep shell dwellers you really shouldn't crowd the tank with too much stuff. Maybe a couple of attractive rocks, and the shells, and that's it. They are a bottom dwelling fish and taking up too much of that bottom real estate with ornaments and fake corals etc doesn't make sense. It's not nice for the fish. An aquatic environment should be nice for the fish before it's nice for you. Decorate it to their tastes.

You could easily do some shell dwellers in a 15 gallon. Just don't add all those ornaments and fake corals and junk.


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

pablo111 said:


> You don't have particularly hard water. I'd consider adding a little bit of Seachem Malawi/Victoria buffer to every bucket full of water you refill with. It will increase pH, gH and kH slightly. It's inexpensive to use (buy the big jug of it, use a measuring spoon).
> 
> If you want to keep shell dwellers you really shouldn't crowd the tank with too much stuff. Maybe a couple of attractive rocks, and the shells, and that's it. They are a bottom dwelling fish and taking up too much of that bottom real estate with ornaments and fake corals etc doesn't make sense. It's not nice for the fish. An aquatic environment should be nice for the fish before it's nice for you. Decorate it to their tastes.
> 
> You could easily do some shell dwellers in a 15 gallon. Just don't add all those ornaments and fake corals and junk.


I would agree about the fake corals and decor. I prefer a tank that closely emulates a fish's natural environment not one that tries to emulate a foreign one. That's just my personal preference, to each their own. I've seen many cichlids tanks that attempt to mimic a SW setup and some of them do look pretty cool it's just not something I would do you. If that's your preference tho go for it. Just make sure to leave plenty of room for the fish and shells.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

yes, u want to make it as natural as possible in the glass box in your livingroom. kind of contradictory dont u think? i know im just being a *********, but i always have to comment when someone mentions natural environment, when a fish tank in itself has nothing natural about it. glass box, four walls, people walking by, etc...


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## B.Roberson (Nov 6, 2011)

Hey, first welcome... I dont think anyone said it! 
Go for a 30gal long.. Not hard maintenance,and WAY more opportunities....
then u could landscape/and fishscape a lot better. just a thought


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

B.Roberson said:


> Hey, first welcome... I dont think anyone said it!
> Go for a 30gal long.. Not hard maintenance,and WAY more opportunities....
> then u could landscape/and fishscape a lot better. just a thought


Even a 20L would be better. I think that make awesome shell-dweller tank.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

i think a 33 long 48"x12"x13 is an awesome tank for shellies. however the op said that the 15 is as big as they would go. u could maybe get away with a couple of german blue rams or a pair of apistos, but u are very limited by a 15 as far as cichlids go. imo


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## crabhead (Dec 19, 2013)

Thank you all so much for the advice! I think gallons 15 is my max right now. This is going on a kitchen counter under some cabinets so the height has to stay at 12", and while I'd love to go to a 20 gallon long, it already took some arguing with the wife to go from 10 to 15!  I was also amazed that a 15 gallon tank weights 170 lbs! Not sure if it is safe to put 225lbs on my counters. I also want to be able to put other things on that counter.

Updated list *(bold is new)*:

• 15 gallon aqueon tank http://www.aqueonproducts.com/assets...7984_400wh.jpg
• aquaclear quietflow 30 powered filter (200GPH) http://www.aqueonproducts.com/assets...0364_400wh.jpg
• 75 watt submersible heater with temperature dial (whichever brand is available...)
• a mercury thermometer with suction cup
• 2 inches of 50% *pool filter sand* / 50% crushed coral/argonite
• *a couple of pieces of texas holey rock or normal rocks*
• *a couple of artifical plants*
• 24' aqueon deluxe florescent hood http://www.aqueonproducts.com/assets...6881_400wh.jpg
• Turbo shells, whale eyed shells, escargot shells, hermit crab shells, anything similar to that size (2 or 3 shells for every shellie - Avoid shells that have too many spirals)
*• Seachem Malawi/Victoria Buffer, 1.2 kg / 2.6 lbs
• Seachem Prime 500ml 
• Tetra 77962 SafeStart PLUS Concentrated Aquarium Bacteria
• API Freshwater Master Test Kit*

Fish options:

• 1m and 2-3f shelldwellers & 1 BN pleco
• couple of german blue rams or a pair of apistos

Follow up questions:

• argonite vs crushed coral vs other? Any benefits in buffering, fish happiness, or white color?
• will it be easy to clean sand (vs gravel with non shelldwellers) with a suphon or will the sand get dirty over time?
• Is 50/50 PSF sand and buffering substrate (argonite) good with my water quality or should I go 100% argonite?
• Will the argonite / texas holey rock ever cause the water to be too alkaline or hard? AKA, will I have to constantly monitor water conditions or will those materials buffer the changes to within an acceptable range?
• If I go normal rocks vs texas holey rock, is there a particular type of rock?
• Do I have the right chemicals listed above?

IMPORTANT QUESTIONS:

• Can you direct me to photos of neat looking (SW or native) smaller cichlid tanks on this site?
• I chose shelldwellers mainly because everyone has said how interesting they were. Do the non-shelldweller dwarves (german blue rams, apistos) have equally interesting behavior?
• I don't mind that the shell dwellers are dull looking, but it would be nice to have something swimming above with more color. Is there any other non cichlid, middle swimming, tropical fish that I could add to the tank to give it color? I wouldn't mind only 2 or 3 shelldwellers and 2 to 5 colorful middle swimmers.

Thanks again!


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

I'd have to throw a vote in for going with a pair of Bolivian Rams (much hardier than GB Rams) along with a school of smaller tetra. This route will help "fill out" your tank, since if you were to go with shellies you would most likely not want any other fish in with them.

If you were to go this route, I'd suggest going with an Amazon theme and use a few pieces of driftwood, sticks/twigs, plants (live or fake), and even some leaf litter. The Rams should show you plenty of interesting behavior, especially if you go with a pair.


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## crabhead (Dec 19, 2013)

CjCichlid said:


> I'd have to throw a vote in for going with a pair of Bolivian Rams (much hardier than GB Rams) along with a school of smaller tetra. This route will help "fill out" your tank, since if you were to go with shellies you would most likely not want any other fish in with them.
> 
> If you were to go this route, I'd suggest going with an Amazon theme and use a few pieces of driftwood, sticks/twigs, plants (live or fake), and even some leaf litter. The Rams should show you plenty of interesting behavior, especially if you go with a pair.


Okay, adding a pair of Bolivian Rams plus school of small tetra.

Only issue is that I am reading that the rams and apistos seems to like lower PH water and leaf litter/plants. That seems like a lot more work since my water is a little alkaline and introducing live plants and leaf litter means specific lighting, water conditions, and, I would assume, more cleaning...


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

Here's a link to a species profile:http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/mikrogeophagus-altispinosus/

And a couple pics (not mine) of examples of smaller Amazon themed setups...


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

crabhead said:


> Okay, adding a pair of Bolivian Rams plus school of small tetra.
> 
> Only issue is that I am reading that the rams and apistos seems to like lower PH water and leaf litter/plants. That seems like a lot more work since my water is a little alkaline and introducing live plants and leaf litter means specific lighting, water conditions, and, I would assume, more cleaning...


GBR's and Apistos are a bit more sensitive than Bolivians. I guarantee Bolivian Rams from your LFS will do well in your tap water, and spawn none the less. You also do not need to add live plants, nor any plants at all for that matter. Driftwood and DEAD leaf litter is by no means high maintenance! Not only that, but the addition of those two things will naturally make your water more alkaline!

What are you considering high maintenance and "lots of cleaning"? Every tank is going to take some work. They are not self sustaining environments. :?


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## crabhead (Dec 19, 2013)

Thanks for the pics. The top one is neat looking.



CjCichlid said:


> GBR's and Apistos are a bit more sensitive than Bolivians. I guarantee Bolivian Rams from your LFS will do well in your tap water, and spawn none the less. You also do not need to add live plants, nor any plants at all for that matter. Driftwood and DEAD leaf litter is by no means high maintenance! Not only that, but the addition of those two things will naturally make your water more alkaline!
> 
> What are you considering high maintenance and "lots of cleaning"? Every tank is going to take some work. They are not self sustaining environments. :?


Okay I'll see if I can find those at the LFS. So I would need freshwater driftwood available at the LFS? Where do I get leaf litter from; backyard?? Not having to have live plants is a plus for me. I guess my concern is that I have read that drift wood/organic matter will leach tannins into the water and cause it to turn yellow and look dirty. the last thing I want is a mucky looking tank similar to what I have seen many people have. The salt water allure was due to the fact that everything usually looks bright, clean, clear, and crisp. I don't mind doing water changes ever other week or so while siphoning, cleaning algae on the tank walls ever month or so, changing filters on a regular basis, and testing the water occasionally, but I don't want to have to baby the tank to keep the fish happy and the tank looking good. I'm counting on you guys to teach me what I need to do, though. I'm truly a complete newbie!


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

Ah, understood. Well, driftwood and leaf litter will indeed leach tannins into the water. This however is exactly what makes the water more alkaline, as well as what the fish like. By no means do you need to have tea colored water, but a little tinge will not only look natural, but be beneficial as well.

I'd suggest collecting your own wood vs buying it, but it's up to you. Most hardwood will work just fine in the aquarium (think oak or beech). Same goes for the leaf litter..


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

the bolivians get bigger and nastier than german blue rams. they are not suitable for a 15 gal, especially with tetras


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## CjCichlid (Sep 14, 2005)

Bolivans are far from "nasty" and in my opinion, would do just fine in a 15gal. Same footprint as a standard 20gal, just not as high.


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

NOt to confuse you even more, but i would stick with your original plan especially if you already have hard water. It will just be easier.

Aragonite and crushed coral are the same thing and they both buffer your ph. I think just the aragonite would work fine. Sand is a little trickier to clean, but its not that hard. Basically, you hover the siphon over the sand to collect the debris on top. You can also suck some of the sand into the siphon just make sure it doesn't go all the way through. One way to do this is to pinch the siphon tube to lesson the flow. This is how I clean my sand and it works just fine. I like sand because the debris stays on top of it making it easy to remove.

In this size tank there really ins't a lot of options for tankmates. Shellies can be quite fiesty - especially during breeding - and don't mix well with tetras and the like. There are some other tang cichlids that would work with them, but they would require a larger tank.


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## crabhead (Dec 19, 2013)

clhinds78 said:


> NOt to confuse you even more, but i would stick with your original plan especially if you already have hard water. It will just be easier.
> 
> Aragonite and crushed coral are the same thing and they both buffer your ph. I think just the aragonite would work fine. Sand is a little trickier to clean, but its not that hard. Basically, you hover the siphon over the sand to collect the debris on top. You can also suck some of the sand into the siphon just make sure it doesn't go all the way through. One way to do this is to pinch the siphon tube to lesson the flow. This is how I clean my sand and it works just fine. I like sand because the debris stays on top of it making it easy to remove.
> 
> In this size tank there really ins't a lot of options for tankmates. Shellies can be quite fiesty - especially during breeding - and don't mix well with tetras and the like. There are some other tang cichlids that would work with them, but they would require a larger tank.


After doing more research, and talking to a former fishstore owner (current manager of our water utility and someone who claims to have introduced many cichlids to the US :-? ), I am thinking that the shelldweller multies or brevis may be the only option. He even went as far as to say that NO cichlids would do well in a 15 gallon tank due to their aggressiveness. He said 55 gal minimum for Africans and 30 for South Americans. I can't believe he is completely correct though. How do you guys think a pair of Brevis and a pair of Multies would fare together in a 15 gallon? Really wish I could mix in another colorful fish with either species.  I might abandon this whole cichlid thing and go with some blue platties and dalmation mollies. Any advice on that setup?


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

Ya, I'd say he's pretty off base. You can keep a pair of shellies in a tank as small as 10G, but bigger is always better. You can also keep mbunas in a tank as small as 40G if you only have one species. There are many different sized cichlids in any given region that could be kept in smaller tanks. Multies are about the smallest cichlid you'll find tho.

You might be able to get away with two species of shellies, but it might be tough. You'd want to make sure you have plenty of shells and hiding places in the tank. A 20L would be better for a two species shell-dweller tank.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

CjCichlid said:


> Bolivans are far from "nasty" and in my opinion, would do just fine in a 15gal. Same footprint as a standard 20gal, just not as high.


we can never definitely say how any fish is going to act in a givin situation. however my own experience with bolivian rams is clearly different than yours was. i had a pair in a 15 gallon who proceeded to beat eachother up as well as the small tetras that they were in there with. i ended up moving them to a 125 with a bunch of bigger ca/sa fish where they did great. ( meaning they held their own against much bigger fish) im not discrediting your opinion, just letting the op know that my experience with bolivians in a 15 was not a good one.


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## crabhead (Dec 19, 2013)

Okay...I'm going to continue to look into brevis and multies. So there really is no other fish beside a bn pleco that could survive with just 3 brevis OR multies in a 15 gallon tank? Plecos don't seem to be the most active daytime fish in the world.


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## pablo111 (Dec 10, 2013)

I think you're not going to enjoy a Shelldweller setup. You don't seem keen on the idea of having a low number of fish in the tank, and keep trying to squeeze something else in. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's just a sign, to me at least, that cichlids are not the way you should go.

Something that hasn't been suggested yet is a single SA/CA cichlid in the 15 gal. You certainly would have some aggression issues if you kept a pair of rams in a 15 gal, but you could keep a single Ram, Kribensis, Apisto, etc in the tank with some community fish and it'd make for a nice setup.

By the way the filter you listed on your list of things you were going to get on the last page-- not so great. You should get an Aquaclear filter. They are the most versatile Hang On Back filters out there. You can get a lot more media into them.


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

pablo111 said:


> I think you're not going to enjoy a Shelldweller setup. You don't seem keen on the idea of having a low number of fish in the tank, and keep trying to squeeze something else in. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's just a sign, to me at least, that cichlids are not the way you should go.
> 
> Something that hasn't been suggested yet is a single SA/CA cichlid in the 15 gal. You certainly would have some aggression issues if you kept a pair of rams in a 15 gal, but you could keep a single Ram, Kribensis, Apisto, etc in the tank with some community fish and it'd make for a nice setup.
> 
> By the way the filter you listed on your list of things you were going to get on the last page-- not so great. You should get an Aquaclear filter. They are the most versatile Hang On Back filters out there. You can get a lot more media into them.


Good thoughts and :thumb: on the AquaClear! I have one on my 10G tank and it's one of the best HOB filters I've used. I've never had an Aqueon and I'm sure they're good, just not as good as the AC. I would go with an AC30 for a 15G tank.


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## spotmonster (Nov 23, 2006)

I won't chime in about fish, many others have offered good advise here.

I will say this, many others have recommended you abandoned the saltwater idea. Don't get me wrong, they have offered up very nice alternatives. BUT, if you want a saltwater look, don't let others talk you out of it. No matter what species you choose. I love lots of different kinds of tanks, natural and not. I always cringe when people say things like ...."your fish will like it better" .... "this decor will make your fish unhappy"... "it's not natural".... The truth is, a large majority of us, maybe all of us, got into the fish hobby because we wanted an aquarium ( even if only the 1st tank) to act as a piece of beautiful decor in our home. Most people end up deciding they don't want the upkeep and en up staying in the hobby for 1-2 years before they sell off their equipment. The rest of us, like those of us on this forum, remain in the hobby and keep tanks for more than just decor purposes. Simply because they want to help save an endangered species, have love for a certain fish, or just enjoy breeding and seeing "natural" behavior. I think the term "natural" when referring to decor has validity, IF the goal is to create an environment the fish's ancestors came from as closely as possible. But as far as the fish "not liking what you put in the tank" That's all nonsense. The fish like to hide and do not care what they hide in. They could care less if they are hiding in a cave of slate, a bright neon pink fake coral, or a miniature copy of the statue of liberty. Unless you purchase wild caught fish, the fish you buy have no idea what their natural environment looks like.  Although they retain most of their ancestors "traits" , they were born in glass boxes, and will remain in a glass box for the rest of their lives. The important part is they have enough space, the right tank mates and they are kept healthy with proper care and maintenance.

My point here is " personal preference" should determine how you decorate your tank. After all, if you aren't happy in the end, the tank will soon disappear. And we have one less person in the hobby. So take all the advise in consideration, but in the end, do the decor how you want it :thumb:

The advise on peacocks and mbuna for a saltwater look is spot on. But I would recommend a 55 for a nice start up size tank. But you can still have a saltwater look with a 10-20 gallon tank.

I also advise you buy your fish from your local fish store that are kept in the same tap water as yours, and concentrate on regular water changes, instead of worrying about bufffers and additives. Constant water conditions are better than parameters that are constantly changing because chemicals are constantly being added.

In case you haven't seen my post, look at my signature below. There is a link to pictures of my "saltwater look alike tank" for inspiration. It may help decide which decor you want to go with.


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

I guess I was not saying you shouldn't do it, I was just saying it's going to be hard in a tank that size. Most freshwater fish that closely resemble to look and colors of saltwater fish require a larger tank than 15G. Even saltwater fish would do better in a larger tank.I guess you could place fake corals still place corals and use a blue background in a 15G tank, but the fish will pretty much still look freshwater. To me that is not a bad thing, but to each their own.

Having said this, I still think you can have a pretty cool looking 15G tank. I've even seen some pretty sweet looking 5G tanks!


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## spotmonster (Nov 23, 2006)

"A single Ram, Kribensis, Apisto, etc in the tank with some community fish and it'd make for a nice setup". I think this idea would serve you well, and will add lots of color to help create a nice "saltwater" look.

I'm with you on the nice bright tank with nice clear water idea. If you look at my tank,that is EXACTLY what it is.


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## spotmonster (Nov 23, 2006)

And oh, let me add, try to get as large a footprint as you can. Not to insinuate your wife is stupid, but will she know the difference between a 15 and a 20 long? It's only 6" longer. Maybe you divulged too much info when you started your negotiating process  of course, 6" is a big difference if your space is limited.

Keep in mind something I always tell newbies "the bigger the tank, the easier it is to maintain". A 10 gallon is much harder to take care of than a 55 gallon at least in my opinion. Or maybe "more forgiving" is a more appropriate term.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

well put spotmonster. you are right on the money with the "natural" issue. all your other points i agree with 100%


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## crabhead (Dec 19, 2013)

clhinds78 said:


> Good thoughts and :thumb: on the AquaClear! I have one on my 10G tank and it's one of the best HOB filters I've used. I've never had an Aqueon and I'm sure they're good, just not as good as the AC. I would go with an AC30 for a 15G tank.





pablo111 said:


> I think you're not going to enjoy a Shelldweller setup. You don't seem keen on the idea of having a low number of fish in the tank, and keep trying to squeeze something else in. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's just a sign, to me at least, that cichlids are not the way you should go.
> 
> Something that hasn't been suggested yet is a single SA/CA cichlid in the 15 gal. You certainly would have some aggression issues if you kept a pair of rams in a 15 gal, but you could keep a single Ram, Kribensis, Apisto, etc in the tank with some community fish and it'd make for a nice setup.
> 
> By the way the filter you listed on your list of things you were going to get on the last page-- not so great. You should get an Aquaclear filter. They are the most versatile Hang On Back filters out there. You can get a lot more media into them.


Thanks for the advice, but I did/do have the aquaclear in my list...what am I missing?? :-? :-? :-? Ohhhh I see. I had the wrong link. Yes, I meant aquaclear not aqueon. Do you think the 30 is too much for a 15 to 20 gallon? Should I go 20?



spotmonster said:


> I won't chime in about fish, many others have offered good advise here.
> 
> I will say this, many others have recommended you abandoned the saltwater idea. Don't get me wrong, they have offered up very nice alternatives. BUT, if you want a saltwater look, don't let others talk you out of it. No matter what species you choose. I love lots of different kinds of tanks, natural and not. I always cringe when people say things like ...."your fish will like it better" .... "this decor will make your fish unhappy"... "it's not natural".... The truth is, a large majority of us, maybe all of us, got into the fish hobby because we wanted an aquarium ( even if only the 1st tank) to act as a piece of beautiful decor in our home. Most people end up deciding they don't want the upkeep and en up staying in the hobby for 1-2 years before they sell off their equipment. The rest of us, like those of us on this forum, remain in the hobby and keep tanks for more than just decor purposes. Simply because they want to help save an endangered species, have love for a certain fish, or just enjoy breeding and seeing "natural" behavior. I think the term "natural" when referring to decor has validity, IF the goal is to create an environment the fish's ancestors came from as closely as possible. But as far as the fish "not liking what you put in the tank" That's all nonsense. The fish like to hide and do not care what they hide in. They could care less if they are hiding in a cave of slate, a bright neon pink fake coral, or a miniature copy of the statue of liberty. Unless you purchase wild caught fish, the fish you buy have no idea what their natural environment looks like.  Although they retain most of their ancestors "traits" , they were born in glass boxes, and will remain in a glass box for the rest of their lives. The important part is they have enough space, the right tank mates and they are kept healthy with proper care and maintenance.
> 
> ...


Your tank is beautiful! Okay let's say I do get a 20 gallon and I go with non shelldwellers. What can I fit in there? Still just a single Ram, Kribensis, Apisto, with some community fish? Which community fish will go well with the 3 cichlids?


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## crabhead (Dec 19, 2013)

Updated list:

Updated list (bold is new):
• 15 gallon aqueon tank
• *aquaclear* quietflow 30 powered filter (200GPH) http://usa.hagen.com/Aquatic/Filtration/Clip-On/A600
• 75 watt submersible heater with temperature dial (whichever brand is available...)
• a mercury thermometer with suction cup
• 2 inches of 50% pool filter sand / 50% crushed coral/argonite
• a couple of pieces of texas holey rock or normal rocks
• a couple of artifical plants
• 24' aqueon deluxe florescent hood http://www.aqueonproducts.com/assets...6881_400wh.jpg
• Turbo shells, whale eyed shells, escargot shells, hermit crab shells, anything similar to that size (2 or 3 shells for every shellie - Avoid shells that have too many spirals)
• Seachem Malawi/Victoria Buffer, 1.2 kg / 2.6 lbs
• Seachem Prime 500ml 
• Tetra 77962 SafeStart PLUS Concentrated Aquarium Bacteria
• API Freshwater Master Test Kit

*Fish options:
•	2 m and and 4 to 6 f shelldwellers (multies)
•	1 m and and 2 to 3 f shelldwellers (brevis, or lamprologus ocellatus)
•	single Ram, Kribensis, Apisto, with some community fish
•	Mix or non cichlid tropicals, blue platies, dalmation mollies, larger tetra (different water requirements than above)*


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

Looks like you've selected some good equipment there. Just so you know, the AC30 is only 150GPH.

I am not certain about your stocking. Two groups of shellies alone will be plenty for a 15G tank. I would worry that the live bearers would be crowded out and harassed by the more feisty cichlids.

If you wanted to do a non-cichlid tank with colorful fish you could go with a blue half moon betta, red or orange platties and some Dalmatian mollies. That would make a nice, colorful setup and it sounds more like what you are looking for.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

save your money on the buffer chemical. the holey rock and arogonite are good, but those buffers are a waste of time and money imo. MOST fish (especially cichlids) will adapt to your water. if u adjust yoyr water to the fish it is an uphill battle. u will constantly spend time and money trying to keep ph/hardness up. its all about keeping it constant. as long as u keep it constant they will be fine. just be sure to acclimate them properly when first introduced to your tank and they will be fine. i know many people use these products and that is their decision, but i have many tanks with many different types of fish and believe me they do fine without the chemicals. unless u are getting wild caught fish, they are all bred here in the states in commercial water. IMO


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## spotmonster (Nov 23, 2006)

I would not give up on a pair of Bolivian Rams as Chris has suggested. It seams to be a very popular choice for these size tanks. For any of these choices, I would try tetra's, platy's, swordtails etc. I have not kept rams, so I'm just going off of tanks i've seen and read about. There's an awful lot of info out there about small ram tanks.

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=257907

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=279402


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## spotmonster (Nov 23, 2006)

sumthinfishy said:


> save your money on the buffer chemical. the holey rock and arogonite are good, but those buffers are a waste of time and money imo. MOST fish (especially cichlids) will adapt to your water. its all about keeping it constant. as long as u keep it constant they will be fine. but i have many tanks with many different types of fish and believe me they do fine without the chemicals. unless u are getting wild caught fish, they are all bred here in the states in commercial water. IMO


I'm of the same opinion as sumthinfishy on this.


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## ChuckinMA (Aug 24, 2013)

I have Bolivian Rams in a high traffic area small tank, and they quickly acclimated to all the activity happening a few feet away. There is no hesitancy about swimming "front and center" which makes them interesting to watch. They're also non-aggressive making stocking easier. Since you mentioned this is a kitchen location, you'll probably want fish that don't get spooked easily.


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## Pseudeotropheus BB (Jan 24, 2013)

A pair of Bolivians would work fine in a 15G and am a little surprised that folks have advised against it. In regards to the shellies I would not do a mixture. I would recommend adding only one from the group of Occelatus, Similis or Multifasciatus. Brevis are a little larger (mine are 2.75") and need a little more room, imo.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

yes bolivian rams would work out great. they will never ever be aggressive towards eachother or other fish. and they will actually do well in a tank as small as 2.5 gal


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## crabhead (Dec 19, 2013)

Okay so you guys convinced me to go with a 20 gallon and to deviate from my cichlid obsession  I bought some stuff last night, but it was pricey as you can't find 20 longs in a kit. I'm perfectly okay with returning stuff if it's not right or I can get a better price somewhere. Questions to follow! 

*Bold is what I own now.
• 20 gallon long Deep Blue aquarium http://www.deepblueprofessional.com/standard.html
• Perfecto (marineland line) Hood with 24" daylight fluorescent bulb (http://www.petmountain.com/product/aqua ... black.html)
• Aquaclear 30 power filter (150GPH) http://usa.hagen.com/Aquatic/Filtration/Clip-On/A600
• 100 watt Aqueon Pro shatter proof submersible heater with temperature dial http://www.aqueonproducts.com/assets/015/27971.pdf
• a mercury-free in tank thermometer with suction cup*'

Still to buy:
• 1-2" inches of white pool filter sand / or white gravel
• smooth black slate
• a couple of artifical plants
• black or dark blue bacground
• Seachem Prime 500ml
• Tetra 77962 SafeStart PLUS Concentrated Aquarium Bacteria
• API Freshwater Master Test Kit

Fish options:
• Community tank with some of the following: interesting colored platies (blue), dalmation mollies (white on black, black on white, orange on white), larger tetra, and a single GBR, Bolivian Ram, kribensis, or apisto. Eventually 1 or 2 catfish.

Questions:


is my flourescent hood going to be bright enough and good enough to eventually support a java fern or should I get an affordable LED hood with night mode: http://www.petmountain.com/product/aqua ... riums.html

Is the aquaclear 30 the right size (150 GPH) or should I step up to the 50 (200 GPH)? What about the Biowheels? I hear they are good to.

the guy at the LFS who had owned his own store and been in the business for 30 years said to steer clear of white substrate, especially sand. that's the opposite of what I have heard online. Will a white substrate (sand or gravel) become dirty looking even if you siphon it with each water change? He claimed also that I would end up sucking up more sand than waste. Opinions?

Finally, any fine tuning advice on fish for the community tank? Numbers, species, other cool looking/acting fish?

Thanks again!


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## crabhead (Dec 19, 2013)

Oh duh....all of those single fish ARE dwarf cichlids. 

The other single I was considering was a dwarf gourami. The LFS people (even the good store) seem to suggest that a lot of these guys can live together, but I don't trust that the PH/Hardness requirements of all of them are that similar.


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## spotmonster (Nov 23, 2006)

crabhead said:


> Questions:
> 
> Is the aquaclear 30 the right size (150 GPH) or should I step up to the 50 (200 GPH)? What about the Biowheels? I hear they are good to.
> 
> the guy at the LFS who had owned his own store and been in the business for 30 years said to steer clear of white substrate, especially sand. that's the opposite of what I have heard online. Will a white substrate (sand or gravel) become dirty looking even if you siphon it with each water change? He claimed also that I would end up sucking up more sand than waste. Opinions?


I'd go with the 50 for sure. A 50 is just about right. If cost is no issue, I'd consider a 70. A 70 is overkill, which in my mind, makes it just right 8). For your set up on a counter top and fish choices, maybe the 70 is too big and too much flow though. The Aqua Clears are hands down the most bang for the buck. Stick with them.

White is a great color. If you do you maintenance you will be fine. Having both crushed coral in one tank and black sand in another, I can tell you the white is way more forgiving cosmetically. Everything shows up against the black!

You will suck up sand until you get the hang of it. I still do, I just don't worry about it too much. especially with pool sand as you are buying, it's cheap, so you will probably have some left over that you can keep to add if you need any down the road.


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## crabhead (Dec 19, 2013)

spotmonster said:


> crabhead said:
> 
> 
> > Questions:
> ...


Great to hear about the white sand...I might just go for it!

So the only worry I had with going to a 50 aquaclear was that the flow would be too high. Does this have any affect on noise? Also do any of the fish I am looking at mind the higher flow? What's the benefit of the higher flow?


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## spotmonster (Nov 23, 2006)

I think the 50 will be very good. But if you you want to see the flow, hook it up with no media in the tank and then decide. If you don't run any media, and dry it out, I'm sure you could still exchange it. But either way, don't let me get you too worked up over it. With proper maintenance the 30 will do the job fine. I just always try to get as large a filter as I can. The extra capacity will also increase time between cleanings slightly.

Higher flow rate simply means more turnover per hour. More filtration. More flow will equal more noise if the water level is allowed to drop below the filter output, but as far as between a 30 and a 50, I don't think there's much difference in noise level in the filters themselves. Somebody else chime in here and correct me if I'm wrong, as I haven't ran these 2 filters in years, just going off of memory 

As for water movement in the tank. I don't think either one will cause too much movement. For the size of the filters vs the length of the tank, the filter could be placed off to one side, so one end would have more movement and the other remain calm if need be. Rock work can also be used to break up flow. As long as I don't have hurricane waters flowing through my tank that are so strong the fish can not stay in place, I don't pay much attention to "too much flow".


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## clhinds78 (Jul 27, 2012)

Also, the aquaclear filters have an adjustable flow rate so how can always turn it down. I agree with spotmonster, more filter capacity is always better even if you have to turn the flow rate down.

I'm not too certain about that LED hood. I would want more specs such as brightness and color temp. For plants, even java fern, 6500k is the best. I would use this light with an all-glass hood.

http://www.aquatraders.com/LED-24-HI-6500K-p/56282p.htm


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