# Mayan or Midas Help



## Deftik (Apr 25, 2013)

This photo was caught in 2012, the next 2 fish in 2013. We immediately figured these to be Mayan Cichlid but upon closer inspection a friend suggested they could be a "Barred Midas". We didn't expect them not to be mayans, so the photos aren't so great, all fish were released immediately. Thanks for your help!
*2012*


*2013*


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## Deftik (Apr 25, 2013)

So is nobody going to reply to this because they don't know the answer or because I caught it as opposed to having it captive in a tank?


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## Chester B (Dec 28, 2012)

Central and South Americans take a little longer to get replies in unidentified as fewer of us are knowledgeable on these fish. We're thes caught in PA?


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## Deftik (Apr 25, 2013)

Miami, fl. I make a trip down there to fish for them because cichlids are very prominent down there. Sorry if my inquiry came off as rude


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## Azedenkae (Apr 19, 2012)

Could be Amphilophus longimanus, actually. Or a related species.


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## Mr Chromedome (Feb 12, 2013)

The the way the bars fade into spots suggest _citrinellus_ complex rather than a Mayan, I think your friend is correct. I know both species can be found in the waters of southern FL. Could even be a cross of the two, but more likely just a barred Red Devil type.

It is definitely not a _longimanus_ or any of their relatives, fin coloration is all wrong, among other things.


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## Deftik (Apr 25, 2013)

Is a barred red devil the same thing as a Midas or are they different?


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Deftik said:


> Is a barred red devil the same thing as a Midas or are they different?


Very similar but slightly different, and considered separate species. Both red devil and midas cichlid are 2 amongst a dozen species, that as Chromedome mentioned, are often reffered to as the citrenellus-complex.


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## Deftik (Apr 25, 2013)

So the final verdict is were stuck between a red devil and a barred midas? Anyway I get differentiate between the two for my next encounter?


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

urophthalmus should have a clearer tail spot and be more coloured than that.
Barred Amphilophus citrinellus should have a less clear tail spot and less colour than that.

I guess they must have gone there own way (away from wild types) or might be hybrid.
Those fins are large for iether kind of where the Amphilophus longimanus guess came from I guess.

Thinking mostly uropthalmus as those have at least 10 variants and can clearly carry genes that can lead to different shapes and colours.

Sorry no firm answer here iether.

All the best James


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

The lack of cranial hump on such mature fish puts me off the citrinellus idea.
Erm correction on the tail spot. Yep that bit looks far more barred citrinellus.

Bit of a puzzler.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

24Tropheus said:


> urophthalmus should have a clearer tail spot and be more coloured than that.
> Barred Amphilophus citrinellus should have a less clear tail spot and less colour than that.
> 
> I guess they must have gone there own way (away from wild types) or might be hybrid.
> ...


Lots and lots of jibberish ; the fish has already been identified by Chromedome. Citrinellus -complex; no real way of knowing exact species; red devil or midas or cross of the two most likeley.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Hi BC in SK, so nice to hear from you again on this freindly site.
Jibberish? Sorry, I tried to put things simply, for you to understand.
Is English your first language?
If you point out the difficult bits your struggling with, I will try and explain them for you.

All the best James


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## infamous (Mar 28, 2012)

I have no idea what they are...but that is very cool being able to catch cichlids on rod and reel. Have you caught any other species down there? Living up North a warm water fish to me is a Largemouth Bass.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

24Tropheus said:


> Hi BC in SK, so nice to hear from you again on this freindly site.
> Jibberish? Sorry, I tried to put things simply, for you to understand.
> Is English your first language?
> If you point out the difficult bits your struggling with, I will try and explain them for you.
> ...


Reading it over again, yes it's clear enough to me. :lol: 
I just think adding one's .02 cents on fish that one is not all that familiar with, is not always helpful in identifying cichlids.....but rather, it serves to confuse.
The fish is not striped at all, like a mayan cichlid, but rather like a midas-type (citrinellus-complex). It has neither the eye, forehead nor snout of "exCichlasoma" urophthalmus.
Maybe the fish is a hybrid with some mayan ancestory (?).....but it has no obvious identifiable mayan traits.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

While no proffesional icthyologist (just a hobbyist) I am familiar with both, having kept and bred both in the past.
Even wrote the BCA Information Pamphlet on uropthalmus (still available and quoted as a refference).
I did not always specialise in Tang cichlids. 

All the best James


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Now looking more closely they do not seem to be all the same.
The pre dorsal spot on the ones held up by the young lady are there. Yes? and not on the other ones? And not big enough for uropthalmus but more like a festae. Still it is there and not a barred citrinellus feature.
Long snout is a feature of none barred citrinellus not barred ones which do not have a "snout" yes?
Thus the mouth shape and lack of nuchal hump kind of more like uropthalmus than a barred citrinellus yes?
Would love to have thier DNA checked out.

All the best James


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## Mr Chromedome (Feb 12, 2013)

Bars, or the lack thereof, have no relevance to the shape of the fish's head! They are simply color variations of the same species, the head is going to be the same shape on both. As for the hump, that isn't always present outside of breeding season, nor is it present on females (unless you can definitively sex the fish in the photos). It comes and goes on males depending on their condition. Also, the size of the fish suggests they are still young, all the species we've discussed get much larger than those in the photos. More importantly, If you look at the OP's photos, you will note that the large black spot on the flanks is wider than the bar on which it sits. If you look at images of _urophthalmus_, you will see that, even when it does show a spot in the bar, it is no wider than the bar.

Anyway, I did not say that it was _citrinellus_, I said *COMPLEX*; that means anything from the group, from _amarillo_ to _zaliosus_. It is likely that it is mostly _labiatus_ (which was pond bred for the hobby long before the Midas was available), though it is possibly of hybrid origin, what some refer to as "MiDevil" (a name I really don't care for, feels like it legitimizes the cross). And finally, the feral Mayans in Florida are primarily the colorful form that gets confused with _festae_.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

"citrinellus, I said COMPLEX; that means anything from the group, from amarillo to zaliosus. It is likely that it is mostly labiatus"

Thanks my bad...................

What species comprise the "citrinellus complex" please?

All the best James


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## Mr Chromedome (Feb 12, 2013)

Well, if you accept _Astatheros _as a genus, then basically the genus _Amphilophus _minus _trimaculatus _and _lyonsi_ would be the complex. A couple of species have fairly distinct shapes, such as _sagittae _and _zaliosus_, but for the most part they all look very much the same. The two that have been in the hobby longest, _labiatus _and _citrinellus_, are both from Lago Nicaragua, and have been in Florida long enough to establish solid populations. In the US there are specialists keeping _chancho_, _hogaboomorum_, _xiloaensis_, and a couple of others. A couple of US suppliers have had several of these available over the years, one of them frequently travels to collect breeding stock so that the pedigree is impeccable.


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## Skylinemp4 (Mar 28, 2013)

A couple of my buddies down in Pensacola on the Naval base use to catch these, and use them as bate to catch big reds. I never knew what they were, but looking at those it brought back the memory of seeing them.


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