# Help keeping plants alive



## lightnb (Oct 20, 2012)

Hi,

I'm having a hard time keeping my plants alive- they seem to die slowly over 4-5 weeks. They loose their color and get... soggy? Its a 75g tank.

*The plants:*
I had some called "rotalla" or something like that that died the first time around. I also had something else that I liked but do know what it was called that also died. Now I have some dwarf hair-grass and a bunch of plants from my backyard pond (all the same species). I don't know what they are but I have attached photos of them. They are native to south Florida and grow in abundance in the canals and ponds here. I hope to be able to keep them alive. They usually have more red in the leaves when in the pond. The red has faded over the past few days in the tank. They also have some algae-like substance on the leaves. The fish suck the algae off the leaves, but don't seem to be eating the actual leaves, which is good.

*Lights:*
I read that the stock light (single 32 watt T8, full spectrum) is not enough, so last week I added 2 additional light fixtures, each fixture has (2) t5 (not HO) 28w lamps. Each fixture has one "colormax" tube and one 6700K tube. All are 48" tubes, 5 tubes total now. I don't believe the watts/gallon rules since wattage measures power consumption not light intensity (especially with the move to more energy efficient lamps). Do you think this lighting is enough for plants?

*Water:*
My KH test took 19 drops to change the color of the test tube. The chart only goes to 12, but I think it's one degree of KH per drop, so I'm guessing my water is 19dkh. GH was 125.3 ppm. The KH seems really high, especially since its off the chart. Phosphate was 0. PH is 8.4. Ammonia: 0, Nitrite: 0, Nitrate: 5ppm.

*More:*
I don't do Co2 injection at this time, but am planning to try a DIY yeast/coke bottle system at some point. I think there are other issues that need addressed first? I add 10ML of Aquaon plant food each day, although I'm not sure if it's the best product to use, or if it even helps. I read that in-substrate fertilizer tablets might work better? The substrate is sand.

*Photos:*
(the fish insisted on being in the shot!)


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## du3ce (Sep 11, 2012)

I think those are called rotalla indica. I would use root tabs or dose it with excel


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## lightnb (Oct 20, 2012)

So the PH/KH is OK? I'm not sure that those are rotalla indica (in my photo). The pictures of the rotalla indica I found online have different shaped leaves. It's also something native to Florida since it grows naturally everywhere. And rotalla indica is flowing and I've never seen these flower even in the pond where they grow naturally. The ones I tried the first time that died out might have been rotalla indica though. I got those from a store.


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## testeve (Sep 17, 2012)

I am actually a little surprised that your Mbuna haven't eaten these plants. Plants are living organisms and very much like fish. They all have different needs. Some prefer lots of light, some do not. Some need large amounts of CO2, and some do not. I think you get the point. Most plants though are pretty tolerant of water hardness and PH levels. These typically are not as big of an issue. Although, if CO2 is not available in sufficient quantities, plants can "make" their own by pulling magnesium and carbonate out of the water which may reduce alkalinity and hardness.

I will try to answer all your questions that I can. First, the plants that were originally red, that have since faded. Well the red in the plants is caused by the plants absorbing iron. If there is no iron in the water or soil, they will fade and turn back to green. Dosing iron in the water will return that reddish color to the plant. As for CO2, all plants need at least some CO2. Some like Java ferns and anubias, need very little, while others like glossostigma, need large amounts. Most plants, not all, though do need CO2 to be successful, and I believe the plants that you had turn "soggy", were lacking CO2. Be careful of using a DIY kit for CO2. You only want CO2 going into the tank when the lights are on. Most DIY kits cannot be turned off. If you leave a CO2 system running while the lights are off, you run the risk of suffocating your fish. Actually it is best to have the CO2 turn off, about an hour before the lights turn off, so the plants can use it all up. One other thing that you need to watch, is that sometimes too much CO2 can lower your PH. You can dose with a liquid CO2 product like Excel which actually has an algaecide mixed in with it. You can try this before going to the DIY kit and see if it works.

Sand is a horrible substrate for most plants, it is hard for some of them to spread their roots, and it offers little to no fertilizer benefit. I would definitely suggest that you put in some root tabs (preferably one with some iron in them so they can get that red color back).

You can also try adding some liquid fertilizer. Seachem Flourish is pretty good.

Some bristlenose plecos would be great to help with that algae on the leaves, if the mbuna aren't getting all of it.

Last thing I will say, is that it is a balancing act, and you want to try and find that right balance. If you have more light, you can give more CO2 and more nutrients. Assuming it is a fast growing plant. Slow growing plants usually need less stuff and less light. Just keep in mind that nutrients, fertilizers, CO2 and light are like the four food groups. Play with different amounts until you find what works for you. It also helps if you can identify exactly what your plant is,and then you can usually find on the internet what the requirements are.

I hope this helps a little.

Good luck!


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## lightnb (Oct 20, 2012)

Thanks!

I was told plecos would get their eyes pecked out by the mbuna. Is the algae bad for the plant growth? It came with the plants when it took them from the pond, it didn't grow while in the tank. I have an upside down Malawi catfish in there. I don't know if he eats the algae or not- he's never out of hiding when the lights are on. What about the air pump? Should it be set to run only when the lights are out? Or not at all? I wanted to try the DIY Co2 to see if it improved anything before investing more heavily in the pricey stuff. Maybe if I unplugged the bottle from the tank at night so the gas just went into the air instead of the water and then plugged it back into the tank line in the morning? If the Co2 works, how immediate is the change?

I read somewhere that algae should grow on the rocks for the mbuna to graze on. wouldn't an algaecide stop that? And are root tabs and Excel available at the box pet stores or do I need to order some online?


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## testeve (Sep 17, 2012)

I have never heard of mbuna eating the eyes of plecos? But then again I don't have mbuna. Sid someone on his forum tell you that? I read all the time about people getting bristle nose plecos for their tanks.
I don't thinker catfish will eat any algae. The algae can affect the leaves ability to photosynthesize if it gets too thick and blocks the light from penetrating. You could also try manually removing it?
Injecting the co2 with the kit would definitely be better for he plants than the liquid. And if you can disconnect it at night that would be the best bet. Make sure though that you have a really good diffuser to get the co2 into the water. You should see results almost immediately (couple hours). You will see tiny oxygen bubbles start forming under the leaves of the plant. It's really cool! Air pumps are for oxygen so you an leave them on all the time. You can excel and root tabs at any Petco or lfs. The algaecide won't get rid of all algae. It just helps reduce it a little. You probably wouldn't notice it. But you don't need to do both. Try the DIY first and see how it goes.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

There are pictures and stories on the forum of plecos without eyes. The BN have about a 60% initial survival rate in a mbuna tank (IME)...then once they make it for a month or two they are good forever.


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## lightnb (Oct 20, 2012)

Thanks,

I got some root tabs from PetSmart today. I couldn't find Excel, but they did have "flourish" and a liquid Co2 product by API. I didn't get either of the later because I didn't know if they would be helpful? I'm noticing algae growth on the tank walls now. Probably from the lights and the nutrients added? Will a bubble wall hose work as a diffuser? If not, how should the design of a diffuser look? So air pump on 24/7? The air pump doesn't reduce carbon dioxide? I thought there was some reason not to use air pumps with pants.



DJRansome said:


> The BN have about a 60% initial survival rate in a mbuna tank (IME)...then once they make it for a month or two they are good forever.


So... buy two?  The fish just get used to them? Or they get big enough to defend themselves?


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## testeve (Sep 17, 2012)

The root tabs and the DIY CO2 should be good enough. You probably don't need the liquid carbon and flourish since you have the other stuff. If the tabs and co2 don't work we can try something else, but i think they will work.
Too much light and/or nitrate can cause algae. Nutrients too, but I thought you didn't buy any? The root tabs wouldn't cause it. I don't know if a bubble wall hose would work very well. I would use something designed for co2 diffusing. Hydor makes a pretty good diffuser that isn't too expensive. But you can also get any number of glass tube diffusers with ceramic discs for around $10 or even less. If your lfs doesn't carry these, you can get them pretty easily online or even from amazon.
The air pump might limit the amount of CO2 that can be absorbed into the water, might be best to remove it. Let me know how it goes.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The BN are either savvy enough to hide when mbuna get curious...or not. The ones that hide survive...the ones that don't figure it out fast enough do not. I don't find size of either the BN or the mbuna to be a factor.

I would actually choose an easier plant to get started...you have a LOT of variables going at once and each needs a lot of knowledge and tinkering to jump right into a high tech tank with high tech plants. Try anubias and get some success going...then add more challenging plants and more high tech options.


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## lightnb (Oct 20, 2012)

I picked the ones I picked because they are free! (from the backyard pond). I haven't done any Co2 yet, because I'm trying to address the fish related and water clarity problems first from my other thread. I did add two BN plecos They are small, but hide from the cichlids, so hopefully they will live. The plants are turning red again on the leaves, more red than they were in the pond. I guess that means that there's iron in the water (probably from the root tabs?). I'll post back here after the other issues get addressed.


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## testeve (Sep 17, 2012)

Sounds like things are doing better? More on the air pump. I was checking on them, since I've never really used them. If you do the co2, you definitely want to remove the air stone. The agitation it causes on the surface will speed up the process of co2 off gasing which defeats the while purpose of injecting it.
Keep us updated in process, maybe some new pics?


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## testeve (Sep 17, 2012)

opcorn:


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## lightnb (Oct 20, 2012)

I think the plants might actually be "broadleaf ludivigia" or something similar. I recently added two Amazon Swords in addition. The ludivigia, if that's what they are, don't seem to be dying, but they don't seem to be growing explosively either. I can't tell if they are getting better. I'll try with the air pump off and see if anything exciting happens. Let me observe for a few weeks and then I can post back the results.


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## testeve (Sep 17, 2012)

Are they growing any taller? The way you can propagate a stem plant is by trimming a few inches off the top and replanting it in the soil. The new piece will grow roots and the. Start growing. The old plant will grow a new top.
Looking forward to more updates.


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## lightnb (Oct 20, 2012)

So I bought a tank from a guy on Craig's List (55G) that came with a planted substrate. He said it was 7 layers, I'm not sure what the layer are but it appears to be some kind of soil plus clay and fertilizer, with pebbles over the top. I've moved all (most) of my plants there a while back. They aren't dying but they aren't thriving either. So I guess that's a step forward? I really think its a water problem. The well water I've been using is PH 8.4 with 19 DKH. In the [planted tank with the driftwood the PH drops to about 8.2. So I had this crazy idea. I have this giant (165k+ gallon) pond in my backyard, where the plants came from. So why not pump water from the pond into the planted tank? The pond is 8.5 DKH and PH 7.8. I imagine it will sit around 7.7 or so with the driftwood. So over the past few days I've been slowly replacing the water with pond water. It makes the tank a bit cloudy but the filter cleans it up in a few hours. I think its just rich in sediment. I also think the water has tannins in it. So I'm going to use the pond water for weekly water changes for a few weeks and if the plants take off, we'll know if was high PH or high hardness that was the problem. I'm thinking of investing in a good DI/RO unit too in the next month or so, but need to save some money first. Just wanted to post an update so you wouldn't think I forgot!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

What kind of plants? What kind of lighting do you have?

There are a lot of plants that do fine with a high pH...would you consider switching if the "new" plants will thrive without RO?


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## testeve (Sep 17, 2012)

IMO it isnt the pH. Seems more likely to be lack of CO2 or light or both. Do you have the CO2 system running? And what are you using as the injection method to the water?


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

If you don't have CO2 yet, I recommend getting a good pressurized system. Much easier for a bigger tank. In a 55 you would have to have a few big bottles to get the CO2 going (if you went with a DIY).


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## lightnb (Oct 20, 2012)

So a Co2 system would be a better investment than RO for plants?

I have some angel fish in another tank and I was hopping the RO would be good for them, too, since it would make the PH about 7 (as opposed to 8.4) which might be better for them since they like softer more acidic water...

I don't have the Co2 running ATM, I stopped until I could get a "real" system. I had an incident with a bunch of the mixture getting into the air line, and its a lot of work to remix bottles every 2 weeks. How long do the real Co2 systems go before needing a Co2 tank change? You go to some sort of a gas dealer to have your tank filled on a regular basis, I assume?

I'm still not sure what all the plants are. I have some Amazon swords and they are doing fine. The other plants have some sort of green algae/moss gunk growing on the leaves. I really want to make a tank with grass and one of those fake trees inside, so I'd like to figure out a way to make any kind of plant grow.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If you are going to have grass, you are going to need CO2, lots of light and a regular test/dose schedule so I'd wait until you are ready to get a "real" CO2 system.

For now I would just remove the plants that are not doing well and add more of the ones that are.

RO is only going to affect pH and your plant selection...not the growth of current plants.


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

lightnb said:


> I don't have the Co2 running ATM, I stopped until I could get a "real" system. I had an incident with a bunch of the mixture getting into the air line, and its a lot of work to remix bottles every 2 weeks. How long do the real Co2 systems go before needing a Co2 tank change? You go to some sort of a gas dealer to have your tank filled on a regular basis, I assume?


I have heard up to 2 years (yes, 2 years) on a 5 lb. CO2 tank. You would go to either a welding supply or beverage supply to get your tank refilled. In the short run DIY is less expensive but pressurized is really worth the money.


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## tharsis (Dec 5, 2012)

The plants in your first image are a ludwigia species I think. They are generally considered a higher light species so IMO you don't have enough light. 2xT5NO puts you in the low end of low light on a 75 gallon tank...the amount of gallons doesn't really matter, it is the distance from the substrate and the type of light that ultimately controls the amount of available light. The PAR (Photosynthetically active radiation) values determine plant growth, and the lights you have are considered on the low end when they are ~20" from the substrate. The plants just don't have enough light intensity to grow, they may have enough to sustain themselves but that is all. As a result they are unhealthy which allows the algae to appear.

I wouldn't even worry about CO2 to be honest. CO2 is meant to provide the bioavailable carbon for plant growth, so you can look at it as a nutrient. The amount of nutrients required by the plants depends on how fast they grow which is ultimately driven by the amount of light available. People that dose CO2 usually do it because they are limited in that nutrient from fast growth (high light). Aquarium water will typically have a small amount of CO2 in the water due to equilibrium with the atmosphere, high light tanks result in the plants using that CO2 very quickly so additional CO2 is added to keep up with the demand. There is typically no nutrient deficiencies in low light tanks because the demand never exceeds what is readily available.

So in your case, you won't really need to add CO2 unless you increase the lights. The plants you currently have in there now will never really thrive because you don't have enough light. You can try some low light species like hygrophylia difformis or hornwort or anacharis, these grow very well in low light environments.


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