# Jewel tank size/population?



## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Curious what folks that keep jewels think... min tank size for what #'s?

I've heard they are psychotic when breeding/protecting fry - how does one keep a community of them?

I've only really read up on Mbuna conditions - so my slate is clean here.


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## nauTik (Mar 18, 2009)

lol funny you just posted this just now, I was just looking for the very same information just out of curiosity.

Only could find info on keeping a single pair of them so far.


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## toume (Oct 7, 2010)

Well...I haven't kept jewels for several years, so take this or leave it, but here's what I did:
(and I made a lot of mistakes, ha, but this set up was successful for the 3 yrs I had it)

I had a 55g (started 20g long with 1m, 1f, and upgraded) with 2 males and 6 females. 
I had 2 Aquaclear 40's on it with a bubbler. 
I was interested in getting breeding groups, so this worked fairly well. I kept my 20 on hand and cycled to remove a pair if I saw them coloring up to breed <- Necessity, IME.

Otherwise, the parents beat the living **** out of the others (my two males esp. had at it--the non-daddy wanting to eat the babies). If you're not careful, you're tank can get decimated overnight. So even if you miss the signs beforehand, you have to either remove the parents and brood or the other inhabitants of your tank (best not to disturb the parents if possible). However, it's pretty easy to catch the parents once they have eggs (they don't want to abandon them). I usually removed the eggs first, then the parents, so the eggs don't get eaten. <- This kind of stresses them out though. And they'll bite you while you do this (doesn't hurt though :lol: ), try to get you to leave them alone.

I treat them similarly to my current Green terror. Normally, they aren't overly aggressive, but when they fight over breeding rights to a female....watch out. Males will also be kind of aggressive towards females when they want to breed--beat them up quite a bit.

Over all, I probably got a couple hundred fry over the years. I kept 6 and raised them--only kept the 2 females, rehomed the excess.

I traded them in because I got so tired of removing fish all the time--either for time outs, for injury, or for breeding.

From what I've spoken to others about (on/off this forum), my Jewels had really excellent instincts when it came to parenting (sometimes this gets bred out of them since breeders often quickly remove eggs). They were pretty nasty about it. Note: be careful rearranging the tank if they're eggs about-- you'll get bitten then too :lol: (I was just trying to trim plants... :roll: )


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## toume (Oct 7, 2010)

PS- This was when I was in high school, and it was my home tank. My parents helped a bit, but they don't like doing research--hence the mistakes that were made...


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

So... for a 20 gallon tank.. A pair would probably be safest... alone?

What about a 16 gallon bowfront? (it's tallish)


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Here you go:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/h_guttatus.php


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Thanks - had no idea what their real name was 

Also, it does say "ideal" - I guess I was wondering if someone were to keep a very small stock(ie, 2)... would it stress the fish in a small tank?

(Running out of room for big tanks!)

(in addition to what I have in my sig, I have a 20g, 16g bow, 10g then a 75g for an adult beardie, and a 20 breeder for a young beardie, a medium terrarium for a gecko)


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Glaneon said:


> Curious what folks that keep jewels think... min tank size for what #'s?
> 
> I've heard they are psychotic when breeding/protecting fry - how does one keep a community of them?


Minimum tank size?

For a pair 15-20 gal. would be a bare minimum, as they are not really a very big fish. 6" TL is about the very maximum for a male. And usually they don't get this large, especially when kept in small tanks.

This is my male, born february, 2008.









And here he is measured at 5" TL, nov. 2009, at almost 2 years old (1yr. 9months):


















Females are considerably smaller. My female, purchased april, 2007 and measured at 3 7/8" TL, nov. 2009, at probably about 3 years of age:










For larger numbers of jewels, a 4 ft, tank would probably be minimum to house them longterm. But no assurance that males will tolerate each other, even in large tanks. Over 3 years ago, i bred newly purchased jewels in a 15 gal. tank (with other tankmates). No problems with the 4 jewels (2 male, 2 female) to begin with. But about 6 months later, now considerably larger and in a 6 ft. 180 gal., one male became dominant and completely intolerant of the other male. They were not even breeding in the larger tank as they didn't own space against the other tankmates, but the subordinate male had to be removed. Long term, generally, can't expect males to co-exist ---- always possible of course but a better then good chance of it not working out.

Physchotic when breeding/protecting fry?

The same could be said for ANY substrate spawner breeding in the community tank. According to some aquarists, NOTHING can live with a breeding pair of kribs, for example :lol: 
But it really depends on the relative strength of their tankmates. If none of your tankmates can stand up to them, sure it's possible, they could be deadly. As well, like most cichlids, conspecific aggression is high, so in a lot of situations, other jewels could be at high risk with a breeding pair in the tank.

Back in the 1970's , one of the first cichlids I ever bred. I've had them a few times since as well as the last 3 1/2 years. bred them in 10, 15, 29, 33 gal. and 4 ft., 5 ft. and 6 ft. tanks. Always in a community situation. They are an aggressive species. Ounce for ounce quite capable. SOMETIMES even quite capable against larger fishes. But IME, less capable and less demanding of space then breeding convicts, and considerably less serious then breeding salvinis. Both of these being other somewhat smaller sized cichlids that i have bred many, many times in the community tank. In fact, at times, I have had both of these cichlids (cons and sals) prevent jewels from holding territory and spawning. Auratus as well --- actually never bred jewels with these in the tank, ever. Kenyi ---not always able to stand up to these either.

A couple short videos of the 2 jewels pictured on top:

http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z116/Bern-C/?action=view&current=fish3270.mp4

http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z116/Bern-C/?action=view&current=fish3269.mp4

They were unsuccessfull in this tank (6ft. 125 gal) because they could not defend from an 11" pleco. the pleco ate their eggs a number of times with in a day or two of them being layed. Just as a comparison, I've never had a pair of convicts that couldn't defend from a pleco, no matter how much size differrence (even tiny female cons will bite them in the tail so that they swim away).

Anyways, in a mbuna tank, your choices long term would probably be either a single or a pair. A single is a much safer option; probably better with less aggressive mbuna. But a pair MIGHT work O.K. in larger tanks even with more aggressive species. To house a single pair long term in a small tank, usually you still require tankmates to serve as dither/target fish so that the pair does not stay scared all by itself and also to re-direct aggression outside of the pair themselves.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

I was just thinking of a pair in a 20 gallon - nothing else.

Perhaps... a crayfish? (electric blue?)

(my other option would be a single jewel in my 125gal mbuna tank; where the kenyi will leave if they become belligerent)


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## toume (Oct 7, 2010)

I think a pair could fair OK in a 20g long--that's what I had....just make* sure * of the sexes. If you wanted dithers, in this size tank, I'd go for something a bit healthier than the normal ones (like tetras) and suggest barbs. It depends on the personality of your fish really, but the bowfront is probably too small.

But I'd see how they do alone first, and if you want them to breed, you might not want to put anything else in that could get at their eggs (like Bernie said with the pleco)-- I don't know if a cray fish would do this (all I know is they eat small fish), but it might get too large for a 20?


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Unfortunately my 20 long is occupied by my young bearded dragon.

This is a 20 tall. Sounds like I shouldn't push this. Just figured if I only have 3 critters (2 fish + 1 crayfish) it might work.


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## bernie comeau (Feb 19, 2007)

Glaneon said:


> I was just thinking of a pair in a 20 gallon - nothing else.
> 
> Perhaps... a crayfish? (electric blue?)
> 
> (my other option would be a single jewel in my 125gal mbuna tank; where the kenyi will leave if they become belligerent)


Personally, I really don't have a lot of faith in JUST a lone pair working out in small space , over the long run. MAYBE a very well bonded pair, but you seldom have that with younger fish. All the times when they are not breeding and just too much opportunity for domestic disputes to occur whith no where else to direct their attention and aggression except apon each other.

Crayfish? If the jewels are small enough, a crayfish could eat the jewel. If the crayfish is small enough, jewels are very carniverous and would probably rip it apart and eat it.

The 15 gal. mentioned before, that I bred newly purchased jewels in, was part of an experiment I undertook after arguing extensively (excessively? :lol: ) about dithers/target fish on this fourum over 3 years back. Since I had never kept tetras, danios and livebearers in many, many years, I decided to see for myself, again, how they fair with young breeding cichlids in small space. Innitially I stocked serpae tetras, zebra danios, 1 paradise fish, 1 CAE (chinese algae eater), and 1 pleco. Then I added a very young male and female convict ---- took them about 3 weeks to pair up after which the serpae tetras and zebra danios were all killed off shortly after. I kept the cons in the tank until the remaining fry were a little too large to be easily swallowed then removed the convict pair. About 10 tiny young small convicts remained, as well as the paradise fish, CAE, and pleco. I then added 1 blue gourami, 3-4 swordtails, 3-4 zebra danios and 4 jewel cichlids. Some of the young cons were removed for feeders, while some remained. The jewels spawned at least twice in this tank and the danios and swordtails did not last more then a few weeks. Paradise fish, blue gourami, CAE and pleco all survived and all did quite well most of the time. Tank was set up for only about 6 months, so it is short term ----and sort of a waste of money as it showed me what I already knew :lol: ----some gouramis and bottom feeders have better chance of surviving and thriving with breeding cichlids in small space, then the so called small schooling dithers. Mind you I sure didn't give the dither/target fish much of a chance with a 15 gallon tank, though I must note that the small schooling dithers were all stocked in numbers of 3-4 ( zebra danios twice I did that!) where as the bottom feeders and gouramis were stocked as a single (so they only got one chance, that's it!).

If I were to attempt jewels in a small tank again, I would start with a group of jewels. 5-6 jewels should be more then enough to get a pair and then remove extras once you get a pair. For tankmates I would try a group of 5 or so paradise fish. As long as they have plants (fake or real) that come all the way up to the surface. That is key for them to co-exist with breeding cichlids ---- lots of plants (fake or real) that come up to the surface of the tank. I would stock a CAE as a bottom feeder/algae eater and have lots of hiding places/caves on the bottom of the tank.You could try tiger barbs or danios as well, but i really don't have much faith in these surviving long term with breeding jewels in small space. Of course anything is high risk with jewels in small tanks.


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## toume (Oct 7, 2010)

I currently have two platys in with a mated pair of Cons...they stay at the very top, and move very little during breeding times. So, for dithers, I wouldn't put in peaceful community fish, like platys, tetras, or danios. They have to be hardy, fast, and easy to blend in with your tank.

Glaneon, you could try a pair of jewels in your 20H, a 29H would be better, but it could work. You'll just have to try it. I wouldn't do the cray fish though--where I am jewels are pretty expensive, and I wouldn't want to risk losing them. Also, you could do what Bernie suggested (and as I did in my first set up) and put in multiple females for the male. Then once you get a pair, either return, re-home, or sell the excess.

Bernie mentioned that a lone pair might not fair well on their own without distraction in the tank, so try some dithers--but I would suggest more aggressive types, like tiger barbs, but I'd pick something that stays relatively small and that won't eat/tamper with eggs. <- My platys will actually go after the babies once they have tails and swim around...so be aware that dithers can do this still (now granted my platys spawned in my tank about a yr back and were raised with Cons and tiger barbs...so they may be above normal in that regard).


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

I think Jewels are around $5-7 here. I wouldn't want to buy 10 just to find 2.. but 2 alone is nuthin'

After the peace-of-mind I get from larger tanks (easier to keep stable) - I may just keep a goldfish in the tank to keep the bio media alive and use it as a hospital/isolation tank.


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## toume (Oct 7, 2010)

A goldfish? I don't know if I'd put them in your hospital tank...(mainly because I know what some of the other kinds of fish you keep are) they aren't fast and aren't meant to take a beating.

Any tetras you like? I've been into rummynose lately.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

If they're in the hospital tank, they're not going to be very enthusisastic about taking on something. It's a comet goldfish, so I think it's a little LESS aggressive and more responsive to being poked.

I also figure they're hardy and unlikely to get sick from a little exposure + medication.

I don't know what else to keep in there to keep the BB alive.


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## toume (Oct 7, 2010)

Oooh a comet! It's called a goldfish, but it's actually more of a koi--if that makes any sense/difference.

Oh, and it'll put up a little better than say fantails and it'll be faster as its a bit more stream-lined (body-wise). And no goldfish is ever aggressive, ha.


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## Woundedyak (Oct 19, 2007)

I have a 29gal with 10 jewels in it. There is only one breeding pair and they breed about every 4-6 months. Everytime the male chases one off, two will circle around and nab a few eggs. After 24-36 hrs, The aggression in the tank is gone. I have plenty of multi level caves and plants tucked in corners. This seems to give them enough spots to hang out in with out getting in each others way. Any other time I would think this is way overstocked, But I've had the same setup and haven't lost a single Jewel in 5yrs now.


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## toume (Oct 7, 2010)

Wow....5 yrs? That's great, though I really can't imagine that many jewels in a 29. 
They only get 4", but that's still a sizable fish. Don't they run into each other?
(Definitely not saying anything bad about this set up b/c it seems to be working?--I'm really curious....)


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

Saw a pair of adult jewels at the LFS today.. prolly 5" easy.. Not colorful at all like the younger ones you see that are all red.


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## toume (Oct 7, 2010)

They would probably color up once you bring them home?


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

I dunno. But the thought of having 10 in a 29 is pretty cool.


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## Woundedyak (Oct 19, 2007)

toume said:


> Wow....5 yrs? That's great, though I really can't imagine that many jewels in a 29.
> They only get 4", but that's still a sizable fish. Don't they run into each other?
> (Definitely not saying anything bad about this set up b/c it seems to be working?--I'm really curious....)


I know, It's crazy! I have them in my office at work. The tank is a super basic setup and water changes don't happen as much as they should and these guy's just keep swimming along. Crappy cell pic.


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