# Crenicichla wallacii.. Getting them in at LFS. I want some.



## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Pretty much in the title really - the local fish store is getting some C wallacii in and I'm quite interested in them, mostly because I can't really find any information on them at all, pictures are scarce too. This makes me want to keep them and learn about them by doing.

I want to get either a single individual, or a pair, but I want to know whether they'd work in my 55 SA - current stock of 7 Bolivians, to be a group of 5 (2m 3f), 1 Rotkeil sev, 4 Congo tetras and a bunch of Harlequin Rasboras (currently 4, to be a group of 10).

So would an individual specimen work? How about a pair?

:thumb:


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Right up my alley ... photos won't be the best, it was my first time and with a borrowed camera.

Male:



















Female:










These are the new wallacii from Colombia though, there is quite a debate going if they are really wallacii (which are from Guayana) or a new, closely related species from the Rio Atapabo and Rio Orinico. My male is starting to get darker fins finally, so deffinately looking more like a wallacii.

Your harlequins might be in trouble ... these guys will go after fish that, while they can't swallow completely, if the head fits in their mouth, fair game. Everything else should be fine, I have mine with rummynose tetras. I've kept mine with _Laetacata dorsigera_ and a small _Vieja argentea_ that I am baby sitting. They mostly ignored the dwarf acaras, and owned the argentea. :lol: But the argentea started the fights, the dwarf acaras didn't.

Currently am keeping them with _Anomalochromis thomasi_ which are a good fit, fiesty enough so there is a lot of interaction and fin flaring, but no damage really, not even split fins.

They are supposed to get about 6", but I've never seen any above 4". Could even do two pairs in a 4' tank like that, have two males and two females in a 3' tank and the females do have some split fins, but no real damage. I want to move them to a 4' tank soon though. Four would be better than two, just becuase until they pair they can't stand each other ... and since they leave other fish alone mostly, 4 spreads the aggression around more. One would be fine of course. Your tank does have enough plants and line of site breaks, you might be able to do a male and female though, just keep an eye on them and have a backup plan.

Forget prepared foods though. At least flakes ... they learned to take flakes from the dwarf acaras, but they loose wieght on just flakes. I alternate frozen bloodworms, mysis shrimp, daphnia, and glassworms. They do take freeze dried daphnia as well.

Am probably forgeting things, so ask away.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Excellent, I was hoping you would chime in. :thumb:

You've pretty much made my day with that post - I was hoping to hear something along those lines. To learn that you've kept them with _L. dorsigera_ is even better news because I was considering trying a pair in the tank. Although I wonder if this may be too much with the Bolivians as well - in the way of back ups in case things do go wrong, I have a 40 gallon piled high with driftwood that's kept cycling so if I have issues I can move stock around and disperse numbers between the two tanks. I also have enough driftwood to resurrect a forest, so if needs be I will happily adapt the scape to max out the territory availability and to really segregate everyone.

So if I want to end up with a pair, my best bet is to start with a group - makes sense, but do you think I'd have any issues with this number considering the number of Bolivians - my Rotkeil is so relaxed he won't even pay attention to the dwarves so that's not something I'm worried about. I just don't want unnecessary stress due to lack of territory.

I'm calling the Bolivians a group of 5 because I will be reducing the numbers to a 2m 3f ratio, or even 1m 4fm very soon. Bear in mind that until then they are a group of 6 juvies (2") and 1 adult.

*First stocking idea (questionable?):*
4 _C. wallacii _(aiming for pair)
5 _M. altispinosa_ 
1 H. Rotkeil (chilled as you like).
2 _L. dorsigera_
10-12 _H. bleheri_

*Safer stocking* - without _C. wallacii_ breeding potential:
1 _C. wallacii _
5 _M. altispinosa_ 
1 H. Rotkeil (chilled as you like).
2 _L. dorsigera_ (instead of a breeding pair of _C. wallacii_)
10-12 _H. bleheri_
*
"Safe" stocking idea*:
1 or 4 _C. wallacii _(aiming for pair)
5 _M. altispinosa_ 
1 H. Rotkeil (chilled as you like).
10-12 _H. bleheri_

Harlequins are out, that's cool - I've only got four left because my Rotkeil has been munching them since I rescaped and pruned, they don't have the height of the plants for cover, tasty. They can stay in for sev snacks, unless they pose a hazard to the dwarf pikes? I love _Hemmigrammus bleheri_ anyway, so they are definitely in, probably my favourite dither fish. :thumb:

Have you tried them on New Life Spectrum pellets? I don't really feed flake anyway and prefer pellets - they should be fairly young so I should be able to get them onto the pellets without tooooo much difficulty (maybe? I don't know, you're the dwarf pike expert). Whilst at the LFS I'll stock up on plenty of "live" feeds as I like to treat the Rotkeil every once in a while - I've got lots of whole krill and river shrimp, but I'll grab some more bloodworm, mysis shrimp etc.

I've sussed the sexing of them - females with the spot on the dorsal there. :thumb: I like that the females are somewhat more interesting in colouration than the males, makes a change eh! I'm definitely into keeping a pair of these fish, I want to see their breeding behaviour, having not kept Dwarf Pikes before and having had my eye on them for so long, it's about time I think.

Here's the new scape in case you haven't seen it, obviously if you can envisage the density of the plants along the back and particularly the left behind the driftwood - this will be dense with hygro and cabomba, a few bits of bacopa sticking through here and there.










If I were to go with stocking idea one, I'd chuck a load more driftwood in there, unless you think I could get away with it using plants more than hard scape for cover.

Cheers bud.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Most of my dwarf pikes usually stick to the middle of the tank, the exception were the _Crenicichla compressiceps_. At least when the driftwood is stacked vertically. Well, mid-level to top part of the bottom ... so shouldn't be too bad of space issues with the bolivians and dorsigera. I would add at least one large vertical piece to that back right corner, they tend to associate more with the driftwood than the plants in my tank.

I've found dwarf pikes and _Laetacara_ a good mix, they are found together in the wild alot ... Guayana wallacii w/ keyholes, Colombian wallacii /w orangeflossen _Laetacara_, dorsigera and bolivian rams with regani, curviceps with regani, noto's with orangeflossen, compressiceps with buckelkoffs, ect ect.

The rummynose have been safe, the pikes don't pay much to any attention to them except during feeding time. Of course, the largest rummynose are the same size as my smaller male and female!! Haven't tried NLS, but other pellets they spit back out. Those big shrimp pellets I feed for like the catfish and such they will attack and rip apart once soft, but becuase they are shredding them it's hard to tell how much if any they eat. My feeding schedule for that tank is frozen every other day, flake or freeze dried daphnia during the inbetween days with those shrimp pellets as treats and algae wafers for the rubberlip plecos at night (otherwise the dwarf jewels eat them).

Yup, females will have that orange dorsal ring. I'd love to see them breeding too, dwarf pikes have been hard to crack. Compressiceps and regani have been bred, but wallacii and noto's haven't yet due to what I've seen. Of course, noto's are blackwater fish found with heckel's discus, so that one's not a surprise. Wallacii are just rare though. I'm deffinately trying for it though, pikes are considered some of the best parents in the cichlid world and I am eager to see it. I know the largest pikes still were protecting their fry for 6 months after spawning!!!

I'd try for tank setup number one ... but then as *TFG* has noted, I am trying to convince everyone to try both dwarf pikes and dwarf acaras.  I think I covered everything in your post, but may have missed something, if so just let me know. :thumb:


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Thanks bro, that settles it - I'm going to add some more driftwood to the tank, I actually wanted to try and hang a couple of pieces down in the back right, so that sounds fitting with your suggestion :thumb:.

The wallacii should be coming in on Tuesday and I have a couple reserved so I'll try get my hands on a couple more. I guess I'd be more likely to see breeding if I gave them the privacy of their own tank, might be something I'd try later on. The dorsigera are a must have for me, there's a good reason for wanting to push them on people, they're seriously cool little fish and I look forward to seeing how they interact. Intense colouration!

This should make an interesting tank, I do have the 40 back-up so it's worth a shot. If I have problems it's not really an issue as I can just re-distribute (and still keep them all, hahahaaa!)

Thanks for the help, I'll let you know what the outcome is - you never know if they'll A. Turn up, or B. Actually be wallacii until they're there - a couple of nice shipments have been redirected recently :x waiting on WC Bolivians and they ended up in the States somewhere.

Hopefully I'll have some pictures for you once they're out of quarantine.

:thumb:


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Yeah, wallacii and noto's look a lot alike especially when smaller, and the male regani and wallacii look alot alike as well. Deffinately post pics if/when they come in.

Regani and compressiceps have been bred in only 30" long tanks, but the pairing usually takes a much larger one. The pair bonds seem very stable from what I read, so if they do pair you probably could move them to a 40 gallon.

And yeah, I kept the pair of dorsigera and returned the two, moved them into a 20 long with a regani dwarf pike ... waiting until I get one more tank up then will do a biotope tank (fish wise, not plantwise, am brown thumb so stick to easy stuff) centered on the regani and dorsigera with some black phantoms. Still need to find curviceps though, every LFS that has 'curviceps' listed are really dorsigera!! *grumbles* I can't help *Deadfishfloating* with the _Laetacara_ club until I get cuviceps!!! :lol:


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Well I've been assured they will not sell any of the pikes until I've been in to take my pick, so that's a good start at least - means I get best of the bunch, whatever they may turn out to be. I'd be ecstatic if they were regani, but the fact that so little information or images are available on the wallacii makes me incredibly eager to keep them.

I've also sourced some Laetacara dorsigera, two phonecalls is all it took, that is pretty rare for down this way as you don't usually find any of them apart from a few fleeting moments, so I'm going to buy them up shortly...

Hmm, this is happening quicker than I anticipated, I was expecting it to take a couple of months to get the stock list sourced not a matter of hours, this makes me nervous, it's too easy.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Excellant!! Since they are sexable, try to get females as large as you can, preferable near to or the same size as the males. In nature most pike pairs found don't have the huge size discrepancy you see with most south american cichlids. Plus, since they don't tend to like each other, closer sizes means the female/s won't get picked on as much. In my tank, size matters more than sex. The largest pike is male, and rules the tank (now that I removed the bristlenose pleco :lol: ). Next comes the largest female, she is longer than the next male and will pick on him. Third is the smaller male, and of course last is the smallest fish which is a female. The larger female usually leaves her alone, but she gets attention from both males where the smaller male deffinately leaves the larger female alone.

If they are regani, see if you can find out what race/river they are found from. They have differant requirements (Tefe are blackwater, Guapore need cooler temps, ect). I would treat them as differant species, as they have already broken one off from the regani species and set it aside as an undescribed one (Xingu). It is kinda of like the differant color phases of _Pelvichromis_ species, how they have broken off some of the color forms into new species like rubrolabiatus and signatus. Regani are easy to tell apart from wallacii and notos if they have females, their dorsal markings are ringed in white and usually are irregular. Mine below is the main amazonian race (I believe).










As for the wallacii, this one isn't mine but it was the best pic of one I could find, ironically on google. It is the True Guayana wallacii. It was when I was first trying to figure out if the wallacii we had in were really wallacii or not so I don't remember the site unfortunately to credit the person. So my apologies in case the taker of said pic and fish sees this. My largest male is starting to get the black trim though and is looking more and more like this one:


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

That male is awesome, if I get a single specimen I think it may have to be a male, that fin colouration is just spectacular. I love these fish, seriously hooked. They're in tuesday and you know I'm going to be peering into the tank to check them out, who cares if they're not released until friday .

Picking up the dorsigera tomorrow.

Come tuesday I'll take the camera to the fishstore and snap some pics of the little blighters, post them back up here for confirmation before friday.

:thumb:


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Yeah, if mine looks even half that good I'll be happy. I think of them as 'firefin' pikes after finding that pic.

They are deffinately addictive, with the various color variations and differant species ... they are as bad or even worse than kribs. I used to know a fellow that bred 7 differant _P. taeniatus_ and two differant _P. subocellatus_ and _P. roloffi_ and was always trying to find more!! I am the same way with the dwarf pikes, have several tanks planned out depending on which species and/or race I can find. Ie Guapore regani I would mix with bolivian rams and dorsigera. Amazonian regani with curviceps. My noto in with Apisto gibbiceps for a rio ***** look, the wallacii are going to be with _Biotodoma wavrini_ and the rummynose in an Atabapo tank, true Guanayan wallacii with keyholes, and the list goes on and on!!!

All of the attitude and personality of the huge 28" pike cichlids in a managable size. They even beg for food like cichlids 3x their size do.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Yeah, some biotope tanks would be very cool with the Dwarf Pikes. It's dangerous when I decide to try a new species, I usually end up hooked. These are no different and I don't even have any yet....



> They even beg for food like cichlids 3x their size do.


That is what I really like - the sound of their big boots personality. I've made a little mix of chopped krill, river shrimp, bloodworm and NLS frozen into chunks ready to trial, I tested it on my other SAs and they all went nuts for the stuff :thumb:.

I'm really getting interested in these dwarf acara too, I've been watching a few videos online and they look very personable.

I'll get the pics of the dorsigera up tomorrow.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Mine were always more timid than say the pikes or dwarf jewels, but after a while would still come out and play a bit. The pikes really don't need dithers, but it deffinately helps with the dwarf acaras. Now that I moved them into a differant tank without tetras, they hide all the time again. They will be getting some black phantoms eventually, but need to set up another tank first to rearrange things before I can get to that.

I will deffinately be interested in seeing if they take that mix. I gotten them to take freeze dried daphnia and krill before, but not pellets yet. In nature, their primary food seems to be bloodworms and other little insects, as well as apisto fry. They are deffinately hunters.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Just got back from picking up the _L. dorsigera_ - pretty young but showing that purple/pink breast. Hopefully it's a male and female - still a little small to really tell but judging by the early behaviour and the fact that one is going really pink when the other is around, I'm hoping. Any indicators I can look for other than ventrical?

1:


















2:









They're a little sandy - new fish always seem to get sandy in my tanks :lol:. They're very active and not shy at all so far.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

It certainly looks male and female based on the fins, but they also look very young yet so I wouldn't bet any of my tanks on that guess. :lol:


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

:lol: Well that's pretty much what I went on - the one just looked like a proper little dude and the other a dainty lass so I went with that gut instinct....

Scientific eh!

Laetacara number 1 is a brave little soul and enjoys swimming around with its fins all flared and strong dark colouration, even venturing into the mid levels of the tank! Still a little skittish but understandable really.

Laetacara number 2 is definitely the shyer of the two and seems to enjoy the company of number 1, it doesn't display marking or colouration anywhere near as dark as number 1 but their "resting" colours are almost identical, apart from number 1 still shows more colouration on its breast.

Both have dashed at the pellets eagerly and ate them up no problem. I've got all sorts ready for the pikes - a salmon skin with krill and mussel mix, bloodworms, mysis, etc etc etc

:thumb:


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Lunchy munchies!









Cruzin'









That is the one that, based on behaviour, attitude, finnage etc, _has_ to be male. I hope.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

It's Tuesday!!! And since you are on D.P.T. ... you are 8 hours ahead ... where be those pikes!!! :lol:


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

:lol: Well the delivery didn't arrive until too late so I couldn't get to the LFS to take pics unfortunately. I'm hoping I can stop off that way tomorrow or Thursday otherwise I'll just have to wait until Friday when I know I can swing by and pick them up. I'll give them a call tomorrow, see what the score is.

In the meanwhile I have been busy aquascaping with the dwarf pikes in mind, so consider this an intermission:


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Excellant driftwood pieces and placement. I almost prefer lower tanks becuase it's hard to find good looking, tall pieces of driftwood. But alas, sev's are so tall you need the extra height with them. And it still leaves a large opening for your rottie ... let's just hope the pikes are big enough he won't consider them pasta noodles!


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

:lol: Thanks bud.

It's the Laetacara that I'm concerned about, they're so small (as you've seen in comparison to the cory) and they hang around in the plants. This is exactly the sort of behaviour that excites the Rotkeil and gets him all curious. Granted he's too mellow to do much and usually just cruises over at which point they're outta there but still, he gets that naughty look that any sev owner can tell you about.

Not sure how big the pikes are coming in at, I generally trust Cichlids to have enough initiative to keep well away from his mouth, hopefully they'll wise up nice and quickly.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Right so got off the phone to the LFS and the pikes didn't make it down this way :x.

:lol: I can't say I'm angry or surprised actually, it's a pretty regular thing down here with the rarer fish. You have to be really persistent and eventually they get it sorted. Hopefully this won't be as long winded as some of my other attempts at getting fish. Bolivians have been unbelievably difficult to get hold of the last few months.

I'm speaking to another LFS that I _used_ to use and have started to take interest in again, so we'll see what they say about it, with their orders coming from the German breeders I'm hoping _C. regani_ might be available but I'm pretty set on _C. wallacii_ after all their elusiveness. I do love the colour of _C. regani_ but after seeing that picture you posted of the _C. wallacii _male I think they're insanely cool.

Probably not a bad thing - gives me time to thin out the Bolivians and for the _Laetacara_ to juice up a little. I'll let you know what the result of LFS talks tomorrow are. What are some of my other options in case the availability is limited? I really like the idea of _C. wallacii_ or _regani_ due to their being found in the wild around Bolivians, Laetacara etc, it's not something I want to stray too far from.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Those meanies!! They must have heard you were being helped by an irishman!! :lol:

Wallacii males are deffinately pretty, the female regani are prettier imo though. Regani and bolivian citrus dwarves are the two from around the same area as bolivians and dorsigera, but the citrus dwaves have only been collected once.

If they are importing from Germany, might see Noto's, uro's, or heckeli. I'd stay away from heckeli, they are a rapids dwarf ... which means aggression similiar to compressiceps. Noto males are probably the prettiest dwarf, assuming you like kribs. Lots of multicolor pastel colors. Uro's are one of the smallest pikes, maxing at about 3" or so, but not very colorful.

Noto male:


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Well I went into the LFS by chance today and what did I find!










Unfortunately I only had my phone with me, they were saying it is _C wallacii_, but it's pretty big, larger than the photo portrays anyway. So I reserved it, they only had the one male that happened to turn up in the next delivery :roll:, but first I wanted to see if you could confirm whether it is truly _C wallacii_ because I didn't want to bring home a monster.

It was 4.5" and full bodied, maybe even 5"TL!

Any thoughts bud?


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

You mean you don't carry an expensive camera with you at all times in case you go into the LFS????? 

As far as I can tell by the pic, it doesn't seem to be a dwarf. The head shape is differant (dwarves tend to look bug eyed, this one doesn't), missing the spot on the base of the caudal fin (though stress could cause the midlateral band to cover it) and it's missing the tail pattern ... but that fact could be from the cell pic washing it out, plus that notch in the tail is where that band would be. If you peek at the noto pic above, you'll see the band I mean. While you can't see it in my wallacii pics, it is there just not as colorful as the noto.

But the midlateral band running through the tail does look dwarf.

Sorry bud, think I would need better pics to tell.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

:lol:

Thanks bro, personally I reckon it's a _Crenicichla johanna_ but obviously I've never really seen them in person either.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Hope ya don't mind, showed it to someone that specializes in the larger pikes over on MFK ... they are most confident that it is a johanni ... that thick midlateral line is rather distinctive in pikes.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Glad I stuck to my suspicions eh! Otherwise I might have brought home a potential 14" monster!

:thumb:


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Indeed, colors to rival your rottie ... but everything else besides the rottie in the tank would be lunch!! Becuase they are rarely bred (except compressiceps), pikes are seasonal ... though I imagine germany would have some regani being bred. Not sure when the atabapo/orinico collecting season is though for the wallacii.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Man I'd love some of those regani - they're the ones that first got me curious about dwarf pikes, but I'm stubborn and dammit I really want some wallacii now. :lol:

I just looked at it  that's huge! It's mouth didn't look like the mouth of a dwarf pike, certainly not in the pictures I've seen, it looked like he could fit the best part of a younger Bolivian into his mouth and I swear you could tell by looking at him he was going to get bigger. Something just screamed, dustbin, about those jaws.... Glad I had my conversations with you bro otherwise a few months back I would've probably bought it under the guise of a wallacii (especially as pictures seem so rare) and had an interesting introduction to "dwarf" pikes.... :?

:thumb: (Thanks!)

edit - I can get them to use German importers, a lot of stuff at the moment is coming from Brazil but they still get the lists from the German breeders, I'll have to get a copy and see what's on offer - if I can't find the wallacii I'd be more than happy with some German bred regani.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Ok, well I went to the LFS this morning specifically to get these pics.

Unfortunately they were doing all the WCs and fiddling with electrics so there were bubbles and all sorts flying around making a good pic very hard to take, but I tried to get the head markings in and as much fin colouration in. The majority of the pics are of the smaller specimen, this is not the fish I showed you yesterday but it looks to be a younger specimen of the one that I did show yesterday.

Here is the big one that I caught on my phone recaptured, surprise surprise, what is he doing:









He wasn't coming out of there either so no full body shot, but based on the head markings and lateral stripe over the opecular and onto the lower jaw, I'd say they were one and the same, so:




































What are your thoughts bud, feel free to post the pics wherever you need for confirmation of _your_ suspicions!

:thumb:


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

I'd bet money on it being Crenicichla johanna.... See the latest pics previous page.

I warned the LFS too, just in case.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Deffinately 100% johanna now with the new pics ... the first pic shows the juvy coloration of the lugubis species, and the last pic shows a huge midlateral line that no othery creni has.


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)

Cheers mate, unfortunate, but there you go! I shall be informing the LFS on the morrow of their pocket rocket dustbin "dwarf pike" monster!

It's a shame because I quite like the johanna :lol:. I'd like one with my Rottie in a 6ft.

The hunt continues!


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Yes, I've recently had to pass on johannas due to tank size. Very pretty fish, a large tank with large pikes and sevs is a beauty to behold. What really killed me is my fav lfs had cinctas, passing on them caused part of my soul to die. :lol:


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Hmmmm ... as my pikes start to color up more, am starting to think they might be _Crenicichla sp. 'Orinico'_ instead of wallacii. The problem is there are hardly any pics of either species out there. The following links are curtesy of the Cichlid Room Companion:

Orinico:
http://www.cichlidae.com/gallery/images/p01765.jpg

Wallacii:
http://www.cichlidae.com/gallery/images/p01394.jpg

Mine has the caudal spot that the wallacii has, but the dorsal fin has the iridescence lining that the Orinico does. And there are no pics I can find of wallacii females, so can't really compare though my females are starting to show the same pattern as the orinico, but that doesn't mean much as noto's share the same pattern.

I don't suppose anyone reading this purchased those 'orinico' dwarves from Rapps a few months ago when he had them?


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