# Black Calvus not eating and constantly opening/closing mouth



## rower11 (Aug 27, 2016)

We're having an issue with our Black Calvus and hoping someone has advice. We got him (guessing gender) the beginning of October. Supposedly wild caught (if that matters for this). He was hiding most of the first week, but eventually got used to the new tank. Since then, he's always come up for food, and is usually hanging around mid-tank. He and an auratus chased each other a bit when we first got him, but he won that. (And interesting aside, the auratus went from a muddy black to bright yellow now, as I guess she is no longer the dominate fish in the tank).

I have not seen him picked on at all, and the only fish he has bothered is a much smaller altolamprologus compressiceps we got at the same time. And that fish has just learned to stay out of his way.

Here's a couple of pictures:


http://imgur.com/TLZnG


On Friday morning, we noticed that he didn't eat (we typically feed high quality spirulina flakes and occasionally some New Life Spectrum pellets). He also seems to be constantly opening and closing his mouth, at various speeds. Occasionally fish don't eat so that didn't bother me, but the breathing/mouth thing is stressing me out.

Video of the way he is breathing: https://vid.me/RFTh (Sorry, it looks like the glass has some streaks, probably from dripping during the water change).

He also is staying close to the bottom of the tank (see second picture), almost resting on the ground but not quite. Though if startled, he'll quickly swim into a rock (which is not unusual). What is a bit unusual is that when he does that, sometimes his tail is still hanging out. Normally when he does that, he goes in and turns around immediately and you see his head in there, not his tail. It just seems vulnerable to me.

He is the only fish not eating and displaying this weird breathing issue. I don't see any spots on him or any other fish, and they are scratching themselves. I've never seem him pick up anything pebbles/crushed coral and spit them out like a few of the other fish do.

His stomach/side is also now looking a bit concave. But it's hard to tell since they're such narrow fish, and maybe that's just be because he hasn't eaten for a few days now?

details:
75 gallon tank, and we do have a mix of mbuna, altolamprologus, peacocks, (yep, mixing lakes, I know, but haven't had any issues with fighting), a rock kribensis, along with a synocat (Synodontis petricola I think), and a pleco.

Ammonia is 0, Nitrites are 0. Nitrates were high when we first noticed (80) but did a water change and they're between 20 and 40. Temp is 77, pH is stable at 8.2, dH is 14, kH is 10 I believe (using API tests).

Any advice/suggestions would be really appreciated. Thanks in advance!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

What happens when you isolate him in a hospital tank and feed just NLS?


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## rower11 (Aug 27, 2016)

Unfortunately, we don't have a hospital tank, so I don't know what would happen.


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## BuckeyeTez (May 10, 2016)

Gorgeous fish, hopefully it's nothing bad. Maybe do another water change to get the nitrates under 20 and see from there?


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

rower11 said:


> Unfortunately, we don't have a hospital tank, so I don't know what would happen.


A large national chain is currently running their "Dollar-A-Gallon" sale thru January 28th on tanks (up to 55g, 75g available in select stores)

They have three locations in N.H.: Salem, Concord, and Portsmouth.

While the tank itself isn't the only equipment required, the bucks saved could go towards the rest of the gear.


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## rower11 (Aug 27, 2016)

Thanks. Going to do another water change shortly to bring the nitrates down further.

I think one of the other fish is now doing the mouth thing too. Would there be a reason to not treat with Metronidazole? I've never used it before, but am now nervous there's something like a parasite (though we haven't added new fish in over a month).


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You want to first diagnose the disease so you treat with something that will help. Metronidazole is not the first thing that comes to mind for parasites in a carnivore.

Keep observing for more specific symptoms.


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## rower11 (Aug 27, 2016)

Thanks. I think his color is lighter/more faded today, and he's staying above ground, but barely (his stomach is off the ground, but he's almost like a tripod, resting on the tips of his pelvic fins and tail. I don't see anything like ich or anything fuzzy on his scales or by his gills. I did another water check and the ammonia and nitrites are still 0, but the nitrates are back above 40.

What are the symptoms for too high nitrates? Just fin deterioration or other symptoms as well? Could it just be that? If so, though, wouldn't most of the fish be affected? Sorry if these are novice questions. Thanks again.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Get the nitrates < 10ppm and keep them there. You might have to do daily 50% water changes. No...when there is a problem with the tank it is common for one fish to show symptoms and the rest appear fine...for a while.

IDK what the mouth thing is. I did have a female that bounced along the bottom for weeks/months but once the big male died of old age she was fine.

I was hoping same would happen to your guy once he was isolated. The stock mix is likely to be a problem if it's not already. Agression or harassment is often not observed by the fishkeeper, even if he/she is watching closely all through the day.


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## rower11 (Aug 27, 2016)

Thanks for all the advice! We're doing daily water changes to get the nitrates down, and probably were overfeeding, so making sure to do not do that from now on, too.

We currently have a Penn Plax canister filter that has the sponge and floss pads and charcoal. I was trying to look up what else might help keep nitrates down. Would adding something like Seachem Matrix and/or Purigen to the filter (or something like ceramic rings) help by creating spaces for anaerobic bacteria to live? Or are those just extra products that aren't really necessary?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Not necessary unless your tap water has nitrates. Better to find out where the "dirt" is coming from and eliminate it. Is your tank overstocked?


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## rower11 (Aug 27, 2016)

Sorry for the delay in responding. We got the nitrates down to 10 on Wednesday and holding steady. A couple other fish have stopped eating too and one was doing the mouth thing, though not as obviously as the calvus. The calvus had been hiding in a rock but with his head out and still breathing (not eating). Finally came out Friday night and we noticed he had got like a feather/thin string of poop coming out of him and his belly is bigger.

Started treating the tank (since it's now a few) with API General Cure, but it was too late for the Calvus. Unfortunately, he died yesterday morning. Our big peacock (who was part of 2 we added about 5 weeks ago), was one of the ones that stopped eating only 2 days before, and he actually died a couple of hours before the calvus. I noticed at Friday he seemed pretty listless, and by Saturday morning was dead. So we lost our two prettiest (and most expensive fish) in a matter of hours.

The good news is that the third guy (who also had the white poop and wasn't eating for a few days) is looking better today. He's still bopping his lips a little, but he's swimming fine around the tank, isn't hiding, and his belly looks normal. We'll obviously continue the tank treatment for the full time, but I'm hoping maybe he'll make it. I feed just a tiny bit this morning, and everyone, including him, ate a bit.

One quick question about frequent water changes-- as long as we're putting in the same temp water, adding prime to dechlorinate it, and adding buffer to make sure hardness and pH stay the same, is it fine to do them a few times a week? In other words, is it better to do two or three small changes a week, or one big change (if the numbers are holding steady)? I just wasn't sure if too many changes would be a shock to the fish.

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Re: overstocking, probably a bit? I'm not sure of the exact definition of that. This is the first tank I've been involved with/had. My husband had cichlids for years when he was younger, though this is his first tank in probably 10-15 years, too. I thought overstocking helped a bit to decrease aggression? We don't have two of the same of any fish. And while there are occasional chases, we've never seen fighting (which he apparently did years ago when he had a South American chiclid tank), and no one is missing parts of fins. So for now, I think they're OK. If they do start to get aggressive, we'll make changes. And actually, the calvus was the one who actually chased the altolamprologus compressiceps (who was much smaller), and that guy just learned to get of his way. He's actually out and about the tank much more the past few days.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Sorry for your loss. Hope you find out what is was/is soon. Meanwhile, FWIW see below.

It's better to do one large change than many smaller changes.

Overcrowding (to the right level, not the most fish that will fit) helps manage aggression with Malawi but not Tanganyikans (except maybe tropheus). One of each can work for Malawi if no two look alike and all are the same gender.

In a 75G for Malawi the proper level of overcrowding would be something like this:
- Mixed gender 20
- All male one of each 12
- Tanganyikans 22 (with 12 of them being cyprichromis and 6 of them being shellies)

Death from aggression is usually not from outright killing. What happens is the fish feels stressed and his immune system weakens and he gets sick. So even if your guy was the one chasing, he may have felt harassed and like he had to defend himself.

The thready/clear feces symptom is usually something we look for in a fish that is more of a herbivore with a long gut like cows have...easy to obstruct. Like demasoni or tropheus. Fish with bloat also seldom have a swollen belly in spite of the name. Not saying a carnivore like calvus can't have bloat...but the same symptom in a carnivore may mean a different disease and a different medication.


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## rower11 (Aug 27, 2016)

Sorry I didn't write back to this one. Thanks for the information on crowding/overcrowding. I'm not sure of exactly the gender breakdown, but I think we're in the right range numberwise (14 plus a synocat), so I think that's good. No one seems stressed, chasing, etc, and everyone's fins look great.

As an update, the third fish that wasn't eating and had the thready feces (and another one I realized wasn't eating), started to try to eat but kept spitting out food for a few days. But after we finished the general cure, within a couple of days they finally started keeping food down, and they look great now. Active, healthy, eating fine. We're doing well keeping the nitrates down too, which is great. And the other fish in the tank seem healthy and look awesome.

So I just wanted to say thanks again for the advice and information a few weeks ago!


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