# Borleyi vs Red Empress



## JAyliffe (Feb 29, 2012)

Came home tonight to watch two of my biggest guys getting it on. They are both around 5-6 inches now and beautiful looking fish. Mostly they swim around ignoring each other. The Red Empress probably is more aggressive but the Borleyi doesn't back down.

First the combatants

Borleyi Red Fin









Red Empress









I put the camera on sports mode and took them on rapid fire, I got quite a few action shots but these are my favorites





































They are now just hanging out again, and no one appears any worse for their excercise


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## brinkles (Jan 30, 2011)

Nice looking fish! I keep red empress, I've wondered if they look too much like borleyi to keep them together. All male tank?


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## JAyliffe (Feb 29, 2012)

It's almost all male, I couldn't part with my Acei and Yellow Labs but I'm going to if the Peacocks don't color up when they get bigger.


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## DanniGirl (Jan 25, 2007)

Neat shots. Thanks for posting.

Are the peacocks in the 250 gallon listed in your signature? Same stocking?


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## JAyliffe (Feb 29, 2012)

DanniGirl said:


> Neat shots. Thanks for posting.
> 
> Are the peacocks in the 250 gallon listed in your signature? Same stocking?


They are in the 250 gallon yes. I haven't updated the stocking in my signature yet but now it is 7 Acei, 8 Yellow Lab, 6 S.Lucipinnis and a number of male haps and peacocks. Of the haps, there are four or five in the five to six inch range, the two in this post, a Fryeri, a Moori and a Sulfur head (Ovatus). There's about six or seven other haps in various stages of maturity. For Peacocks I have about six of various different colours all around the two to three inch size and so far as I can tell all male (they were sold as male). It's a work in progress but I decided I was done with the more aggressive mbuna for now and slowly switched over, I just didn't quite eliminate the mbuna and since I have a large quantity of rock and other items in the tank I thought I would wait to see how things unfold before I ditch the remaining mbuna. I'll try to post some tank shots later when I get home.

I also have a hospital/time-out/any other purpose its needed for tank in the closet space behind the main tank (which is in the wall) currently has a couple more haps/peacocks that I wasn't sure about when I got them home!

Oh and the Demasoni left me a parting gift too =D> a single fry that's about 1/2 inch right now who I will have to deal with at some point in the future.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Empress is very nice.


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## JAyliffe (Feb 29, 2012)

13razorbackfan said:


> Empress is very nice.


Thanks  He came from a site sponsor and I must say I have been very impressed watching him colour up.


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## DanniGirl (Jan 25, 2007)

Actually, after reading you updated stock, the single dem may be just fine in the tank.

The tank looks good but by all means, update with new the pictures. :thumb:


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## johnchor (Apr 2, 2011)

hello

i prefer the Borleyi Red Fin rather than empress.
i like the red deep body look of Borleyi Red Fin. unique in haps.
cheers!


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## JAyliffe (Feb 29, 2012)

I'm torn between the two, I think they are both great looking fish. I'm hoping their spat is short lived so I don't have to seriously consider removal of either one. Here's a tank shot for DanniGirl as requested


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## johnchor (Apr 2, 2011)

nice fish and big plie of rocks
but the castle looks odd there...


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## JAyliffe (Feb 29, 2012)

I had a big gap in there before.... I like the castle there, I know it won't be to everyone's tastes


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Have the fish expressed dissatisfaction with the castle?


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## JAyliffe (Feb 29, 2012)

cantrell00 said:


> Have the fish expressed dissatisfaction with the castle?


I'd say that they are entirely satisfied given that it has at least two very large caverns where the lower sections are hollow. They spend a lot of time swimming in and out of the various parts of it.


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## DanniGirl (Jan 25, 2007)

The tank looks good, thanks for the picture! The shells (or rocks in the center, I can't tell) are a nice touch. :thumb:
You're right, you needed something in the center and the castle works well. It mirrors the landscape well; the repetitiveness adds balance to the tank. Good choice on your part. =D>


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## johnchor (Apr 2, 2011)

how about some tall plants in the center to replace the castle?

just a thought.

cheers!


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

JAyliffe said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> > Have the fish expressed dissatisfaction with the castle?
> ...


My poor attempt at humor to illustrate a point, I guess.

Mbuna absolutely love PVC fittings and flower pots too!


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## JAyliffe (Feb 29, 2012)

johnchor said:


> how about some tall plants in the center to replace the castle?
> 
> just a thought.
> 
> cheers!


I'm working on plants in the background. I had vallisineria in there originally but it didn't stand up to the mbuna population very well. Now I have less mbuna and more haps/peacocks I'm going to try to get plants growing again, bothe behind the castle and in front of it. They may hide the castle somewhat but I don't envisage them replacing it.


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## JAyliffe (Feb 29, 2012)

cantrell00 said:


> JAyliffe said:
> 
> 
> > cantrell00 said:
> ...


The haps and peacocks seem to be quite happy with it too.... Your original comment put me in mind of a fish called jonchor swimming around holding a placard declaring the ugly castle must go


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## johnchor (Apr 2, 2011)

The haps and peacocks seem to be quite happy with it too.... Your original comment put me in mind of a fish called jonchor swimming around holding a placard declaring the ugly castle must go .... wahahahhahahahah.... lolx.


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Funny stuff...


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## littleolme (Nov 1, 2011)

Very cool shots of them in action!


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## JAyliffe (Feb 29, 2012)

littleolme said:


> Very cool shots of them in action!


Thanks, here's a final one of the 'victor' posing


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## Swifterz (Aug 3, 2009)

i have both in my 120. both are about 7". no problems.


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## JAyliffe (Feb 29, 2012)

Swifterz said:


> i have both in my 120. both are about 7". no problems.


I think my Red Empress is a bully boy, the only one in the tank he doesn't go after is the Fryeri who will chase him instead (if approached). No-one messes with the Fryeri, but he doesn't feel the need to make the point very often. I left the lights off apart from feeding yesterday, everything was a lot calmer


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

Jayliffe-

Do you have a video of your tank anywhere?


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

JAyliffe said:


> Swifterz said:
> 
> 
> > i have both in my 120. both are about 7". no problems.
> ...


You sure you don't have a female somewhere? Is there a particular fish he is shimmying around besides the Borleyi?


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## JAyliffe (Feb 29, 2012)

There are a couple of female mbuna (acei/yellow labs) in the tank but I had assumed he wouldn't be interested in those. Is it more a case of any scent of a female is enough?


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

JAyliffe said:


> There are a couple of female mbuna (acei/yellow labs) in the tank but I had assumed he wouldn't be interested in those. Is it more a case of any scent of a female is enough?


Hard to say for sure but with the size of your tank I find it odd or rare that two equal sized fish of different species have run the other in the corner of the tank unless there is a female he is interested in. Have you seen the Empress following another fish around shimmying or displaying then going back after the Borleyi? He is a gorgeous fish so if it were me I would remove him to another tank for a few weeks then move him back. I usually go 6 weeks. If it doesn't work after the first removal it usually won't. Also....this is just my personal opinion but a Borleyi like you have is a dime a dozen. Your empress shows amazing variation of different colors. That is the fish I would keep if it were me unless he is constantly harassing others as well.


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## NJmomie (Jan 17, 2013)

JAyliffe said:


> I had a big gap in there before.... I like the castle there, I know it won't be to everyone's tastes


I don't mind the castle as long as it's Hogwarts  ... what I would consider changing would be the blue background. I think black would make it look more dramatic.


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## JAyliffe (Feb 29, 2012)

cantrell00 said:


> Jayliffe-
> 
> Do you have a video of your tank anywhere?


I don't at the moment... I assume you're thinking that would be the easiest way to get opinions on likely 'hidden' females?


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

No.

Putting a male hap / peacock tank together myself. Many of the same species.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

JAyliffe said:


> cantrell00 said:
> 
> 
> > Jayliffe-
> ...


I would vent the suspected females if they are of size.


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## JAyliffe (Feb 29, 2012)

cantrell00 said:


> No.
> 
> Putting a male hap / peacock tank together myself. Many of the same species.


I'll see what I can do on the video front once I have worked out who is causing the mayhem in the tank. Right now, the Fryeri, Moori, Empress, Borleyi and Ovatus are the largest fish in there although the Ovatus isn't colored up yet. How soon before you get your fish?


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## JAyliffe (Feb 29, 2012)

13razorbackfan said:


> JAyliffe said:
> 
> 
> > cantrell00 said:
> ...


Ah, venting.... I haven't quite got the hang of that as yet though I would assume that a 2 1/2 to 3 inch Phenocilus should be old enough to be vented


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Yeah.....3" should be big enough or close to it. I would go ahead and try to get her out. Problems will only get worse and a Fryeri can do A LOT of damage to other haps and peacocks. They can be down right brutal because they are very fast and powerful.


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## ratbones86 (Jun 29, 2012)

That borleyi is a great looking fish! I love them they are one of my favorites! I just wish i had a bigger tank to keep one i only have a 55g which is my biggest at the moment.


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## JAyliffe (Feb 29, 2012)

Things were a lot calmer in the tank last night, a little chasing still going on but noticeably less. Working on the theory that I have unintentionally introduced a female hap to the mix, is it possible that she got what she wanted (a mouthfull of eggs) and now isn't taunting the males so much? I know I have observed my mbuna most actively attempting to spawn immediately after water changes and the increased aggression was just after my latest water change so that might have been the trigger for the female hap to go into action. If I'm right then she ought to be a little more obvious very soon since she'll have the swollen throat.

In any case, my plan for now is lights off whenever the boys get at it and this weekend I'm pulling every hap that I'm not 100% sure of being male (there's two or three candidates).


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The females don't taunt the males...the males compete over the females. I'd imagine things will be worse now because the only female is no longer capable of spawning...and the males will still go after her...they don't get it (or don't care) that she can't.


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## JAyliffe (Feb 29, 2012)

An interesting article http://jeb.biologists.org/content/215/1/68.full discussing the stimuli that set off the males. Taunt was probably a poor word choice on my part but much as the arrival of a woman in a room filled with men might provoke various reactions the article I linked to suggests that male cichlids react more strongly to the presence of a gravid female as opposed to a mouth brooding female. So passively or not, she started it.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

JAyliffe said:


> An interesting article http://jeb.biologists.org/content/215/1/68.full discussing the stimuli that set off the males. Taunt was probably a poor word choice on my part but much as the arrival of a woman in a room filled with men might provoke various reactions the article I linked to suggests that male cichlids react more strongly to the presence of a gravid female as opposed to a mouth brooding female. So passively or not, she started it.


I just read the summary of the article and must say.....wow. I will read the rest a bit later but it makes total sense in what I have witnessed in my tank especially with peacocks and haps. I have noticed that when a female is holding the male seems to have calmed down a bit. Thanks for that find.


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## JAyliffe (Feb 29, 2012)

13razorbackfan said:


> JAyliffe said:
> 
> 
> > An interesting article http://jeb.biologists.org/content/215/1/68.full discussing the stimuli that set off the males. Taunt was probably a poor word choice on my part but much as the arrival of a woman in a room filled with men might provoke various reactions the article I linked to suggests that male cichlids react more strongly to the presence of a gravid female as opposed to a mouth brooding female. So passively or not, she started it.
> ...


Hope you have a lot of time for reading later because this one's even better 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2902620/

"While visual cues are important for social behaviors in this species [23, 25, 26], olfactory cues may also provide crucial information on sex, reproductive condition, and dominance status. Previous studies in A. burtoni show that olfactory signals are used for perception of social information [25, 27], and that the olfactory system is responsive to putative pheromone compounds [28-30]. In the closely related tilapia Oreochromis mossambicus, chemical communication is also used by both males and females for reproductive and dominance behaviors [6, 31]. These studies provide support for the importance of olfactory-mediated behaviors in A. burtoni, but whether the olfactory system might be influenced by the animals' internal physiological state remains unknown."

What I took from my quick scan read of the article is that in crude terms a gravid female excretes a fishy perfume that says "eggs this way" with the inevitable results  So now I don't think taunt was too strong a word, even if it wasn't a visual signal...


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I find my males go even more crazy trying to spawn with holding females...at least for a day or two after.

Taunt implies intent...she can't control her natural perfume so to speak.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Yeah.....sounds as though the pheromones are what drives the male into hyper activity. Makes sense when you think about it.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

DJRansome said:


> I find my males go even more crazy trying to spawn with holding females...at least for a day or two after.
> 
> Taunt implies intent...she can't control her natural perfume so to speak.


I wonder if it is different for Mbuna than haps/peacocks? I noticed that my males seemed to really calm down a bit after the eggs had been fertilized. I do find this topic very very interesting.


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## JAyliffe (Feb 29, 2012)

It might be that whatever chemicals are triggering the behavior build up during spawning (in a tank scenario) and stay at sufficient levels to incite the males for longer than maybe true in the natural habitat. Perhaps stocking levels intended to control aggression is a factor there. That's pure speculation on my part, I will happily admit I have no expertise here. As RBF comments, this topic is quite fascinating, part of what to me makes cichlids so much fun to keep.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

JAyliffe said:


> It might be that whatever chemicals are triggering the behavior build up during spawning (in a tank scenario) and stay at sufficient levels to incite the males for longer than maybe true in the natural habitat.


That makes sense as well and would imagine water changes would help reduce the pheromones.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Ok....I finished reading the article and found this to be the most important. I will quote the section below but basically a male can use visual clues to identify females and this was tested using side by side tanks without access to the same water. When water from a gravid female was introduced to a male without seeing a female the male would still start behaving the same way. The pheromones released in the water were 10 times more effective than the visual clues. Here is the paragraph:

Male A. burtoni had higher urination rates when visually exposed to gravid females relative to brooding females, suggesting that they can distinguish female reproductive state based on visual cues alone. In another study using the Nile tilapia Oreochromis niloticus, female visual cues alone were also sufficient to increase courtship behaviors and GSI in males (Castro et al., 2009). *In our study, rates of courtship behavior by A. burtoni males given visual cues alone, however, were ∼10-fold lower than when gravid females were in the same compartment and males had access to full sensory information. Previous studies also showed increased courtship behavior in male A. burtoni exposed to water that had housed gravid females (Crapon de Caprona, 1974; Crapon de Caprona, 1980).* Thus, it is possible that* olfactory information from gravid females is required to prime the male's reproductive system* before he invests in potentially energetically demanding visual, and possibly acoustic, courtship displays.

That is really some cool stuff.


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## JAyliffe (Feb 29, 2012)

Quick update, I pulled one fish tonight just as I was about to feed (I got a bigger net to make catching it easier). The aggression was definitely less the last few nights after me leaving the lights off a lot of the time but there was still a fair bit of chasing going on. So now, a few hours after I took one of the prime suspects out, it would appear that I found my 'hidden female'. Everyone appears to be swimming round a lot calmer than they have been all week


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## cantrell00 (Oct 30, 2010)

13razorbackfan said:


> DJRansome said:
> 
> 
> > I find my males go even more crazy trying to spawn with holding females...at least for a day or two after.
> ...


I have found the same to be true with mbuna also.

They still try to some degree but nothing like before they hold.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

JAyliffe said:


> Quick update, I pulled one fish tonight just as I was about to feed (I got a bigger net to make catching it easier). The aggression was definitely less the last few nights after me leaving the lights off a lot of the time but there was still a fair bit of chasing going on. So now, a few hours after I took one of the prime suspects out, it would appear that I found my 'hidden female'. Everyone appears to be swimming round a lot calmer than they have been all week


 :thumb:


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