# GBR Experts Needed!



## mr86mister (Sep 19, 2011)

I've been in the aquarium hobby for almost 2 decades now(since I was 5 lol) and have tried everything. I currently work as a Saltwater Specialist at my LFS and local Zoo but have taken down my reef systems from home and want to set up a 20L planted, Pair of German Blue Ram (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi) system with a small school of Rummynose Tetras (Hemigrammus rhodostomus). I currently have a Quad t5 24w fixture and I plan on only using two of the bulbs though. I have an AquaClear 70 on there and will be dialing it down quite a bit and when they breed putting a sponge over the filter intake. I have and will be doing plenty of research on these guys(I love to read about stuff and learn before I begin).

Now here is the list of questions I have with experienced GBR keepers.

Best substrate for a planted system with this species?
Should I go Biotope?(soft, acidic water, driftwood, live plants)
Best schooling tetra?
3-4 Otocinclus ok?
Heating temperature? 83F?

Last but not least I am looking for tons of different links. I've found all the main ones on Google but am wondering if there are any good lengthy discussions on this species.

Thanks in advance everyone!


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## ivanmike (Jun 15, 2003)

I'd use sand as rams will sift if they can. 
What are your tap water parameters? Often if your water isn't all that hard you can get away with peat filtering through something as simple as a box filter with peat in a nylon stocking (as well as treating the next batch of water). Rams dig soft and somewhat acid, but I wouldn't go mental with the pH - constantly changing pH can cause many more problems than stable pH a bit higher than they like. 
I'd go the biggest tank you can (a 40 long - think a short 55) is a great ram tank. 
They also dig hotter temps. 80 -82 is probably fine for most of the time. 
Keep schooling tetras small and those that dig the heat as well. Neons aren't so fond of temps that high while cardinals are. My personal favorite is a school of black neons - anywhere from 6-24 depending upon tank size. 
If you plan to breed I personally would avoid any kind of catfish as they are pretty good at eating eggs at night. 
The above is pretty much my formula for all rams, apistos, and smiling acaras (although certain ones like bolivians don't need super soft water, and dorsiger can take colder temps). 
the tetra books by Linke and Staek on dwarf cichlids are a very good read (I probably butchered the spellings of their names)


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## mr86mister (Sep 19, 2011)

Sweet thanks for the input. Also when I mentioned 20L I meant 20 Long I forget that some use Metric system(I know I know I'm a dumb American...haha) I will be using RO/DI water for the system. I was aiming for a pH of around 5.5-6.5. I'm still doing some good research on a schooling fish that would do well and not get too big. Thanks for the recommendation, I think my shop may have some of the hose stacked away.


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## whitedevil13 (Apr 28, 2010)

I use a 1-5mm grain gravel for my rams, its light and smooth and they make their "holes" just fine in it without the debris mess.
id get atleast a 36" tank for them a 20L will be fine for about two pairs pending you have alot of visual barriers.

your RO unit should bring your down to around 7(mine is around 6) depending on your water supply. it sounds like you got it covered other then the substrate though. *** seen alot bred in 15g BB tanks with great success.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

otos are completely vegetarian, so they'll be fine.
I'd use sand too, rams sometimes excavate when they breed. I'd say lots of plants, driftwood, and rocks, as they are shy fish. As for pH, it depends on your rams: tank-raised farm bred rams are used to hard waters, while wild caughts require soft acidic water. I had rams at 80F and they were fine, but they showed the best colour at about 84F. I'd say cardinals if you're keeping them at 84-86F, if not I'd go with 82F and rummy nose or black neons. In a 20L i'd put a ton of line of sight breaks, and try 2 pairs. Rams are not capable of doing much damage to anything, so 2 pairs in a 30" tank should be fine. Be prepared to rehouse a pair though. And if you're going with 2 pairs, I'd buy 6 juveniles and let them pair up by themselves. That way, if two pairs form they'll already be used to each other, and fighting will probably be less often.

As a final note, rams can be finicky, and individuals injected with hormones tend to die fast. They're still very cool fish though.


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## mr86mister (Sep 19, 2011)

Thanks BIB and whitedevil! I'm currently looking to get just the Wild Caught Rams and I do want just a single pair. I do want the Wild Caught only because I'm looking for something a bit different and I think almost everything that they need in the wild in my system.

I picked up 4 nice pieces of driftwood, a few of petrified driftwood, and a type of rock called Hawaiian Sunset(the color I guess) that is shaped like slate to make a great breeding corner. I will be pretty planted with Amazonian plants and I have ordered Seachem Dark Flourite for the substrate. I made sure the pieces would be small enough for the rams to pick and push around.

The pH of my RO water is at 6.8 so I'm planning to bring it down. Is there something you guys would recommend on keeping it low? I hear peat moss is great at keeping it soft and acidic but would something like pH Down work just as well? Would using chemicals to keep the pH low affect the fish? If going the chemical way I would plan on treating the RO water 24hrs prior to doing a water change and make sure it is at temperature and proper pH level.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

Peat moss is good. I'd stay away from the chemicals; I try to use natural forms of pH control if at all possible. You could try black water extract instead though if you wish. I personally like the dark tanin colour, but thats just me


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## whitedevil13 (Apr 28, 2010)

clean fallen oak leaves will give you Ph balance and the tannins. Just make sure they are clean and collected from a natural source that is over 500 yards away from a manicured landscape.


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## mr86mister (Sep 19, 2011)

I was looking into using Oak leaves but they do Aerial sprays for West Nile and EEE around here so that's a bust.

Is there a good place to get Peat Moss? Any recommendations?


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## J_Nordstrom (Sep 24, 2011)

I just got me a couple GBR's about a week ago. Planning on doing a community tank with them. I have them in a 30 gallon for right now and once my 55 gallon gets cycled I'm putting them in there. Right now I have them in with a betta and everyone gets along, I'm wanting to get a school of neon tetras to put in with them but my LFS is out right now. If you're planning on breeding and if you haven't already, get a flat rock for them. They like to lay eggs on them. I would also like to know where to get peat moss from, my ph is a little high and the water isn't soft so I definitely need some.


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## TeteRouge (Feb 15, 2009)

Re: peat... I picked up a box of Fluval Peat Granules from my LFS at the owners recommendation. He said it would work well with my 2 SA style tanks (Bolivian and Blue Rams, Blue Lace Angels) and my Aquaclear HOBs. I put the peat an emptied mesh media bag and place it inside the filter just under the ceramic "macaronis". The tanks are planted and have driftwood, water is still extremely hard, but ph and total alkalinity are way lower. Out of faucet, ph is 7.8, TA (KH ppm) is 180+, in the tank ph is ~6.2, TA is 40. I don't know what is optimal, but they seem to be doing well.


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

That's perfect  They'll love the water.


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## TeteRouge (Feb 15, 2009)

BelieveInBlue said:


> That's perfect  They'll love the water.


Good to know! Thanks 

HTH


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## ivanmike (Jun 15, 2003)

If the peat is making that much of a difference I would treat the water you use for water changes prior to adding it to the tank. Something as simple as a box filter with peat and some gravel or ceramic macaroni to weigh it down should suffice. Make sure you treat a good amount as frequent water changes are essential for almost all dwarf cichlids. You'll want to preheat this water as well.


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## TeteRouge (Feb 15, 2009)

ivanmike said:


> ... I would treat the water you use for water changes prior to adding it to the tank... You'll want to preheat this water as well....


Hmm. shouldn't be too hard to do. Have peat granules, empty media bags, and a tea kettle... Usually do small (10-15%) water changes 2x a week, with substrate siphon vac. Anyway, hopefully OP can use ideas floated :wink: :thumb:


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

Just a side note, but please start your own thread; you're starting to hijack this thread.


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## ivanmike (Jun 15, 2003)

FWIW, any peat is OK if it's not treated with fungicides. When I use it I get it by the bale - much cheaper.


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## TitoTee (Feb 18, 2006)

If I'm not mistaken driftwood softens water and lowers pH.


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## woaisqt (Oct 8, 2011)

Heating temperature


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## mr86mister (Sep 19, 2011)

Hijacking is alright with me. It always throws in different ideas. I picked up Eheim's Peat Pellets and it says to use the entire 1Liter bag for 80L (4 cups for 20 gallons) but I am actually going to start with only about half of that and see what it is. My system has settled in around ph6.8 so I just put a bag of this stuff in 3 days ago and I am testing it bit by bit to see how low it will go. I pretreat my RO water with pH Down to ph6.0. This is gradually helping bring down the main system as well. I will be taking a few pictures of it and will post it on here. The only problem is now I am a bit torn between the Mikrogeophagus ramirezi and Apistogramma Cacatuoides and what I would like to breed in the long run. They are both gorgeous and require the same habitat but GBR's seem to be a bit more sensitive than the Apisto's. Any comments on that?


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

I have both in a 50L; no problems so far and they exist find. There's kind of an understanding between the two: they keep to themselves in their respective turfs. Oh and my pH is at 7.5. With tank raised fish, the pH is not nearly as important as consistancy. The pH, temp, etc stays very constant, and I keep nitrates under 20ppm, so they're all completely fine. It's easier to adapt your fish to higher/lower pH, temp than to adjust it constantly and stress the fish.


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## mr86mister (Sep 19, 2011)

Perfectly put BIB. This is the exact reason why I am not adding my show fish for at least a month. I want to make sure everything evens out. It's funny you mentioned nitrates. Coming from the Reef side of the world anything above 5ppm is a no no  . So for a second I was like "woah wait what?". lol. I am(by habit) doing weekly 25% water changes on this system, as I used to for my SPS(Small Polyp Stony) coral systems. Would you say this is a bit overkill?


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## BelieveInBlue (Jul 17, 2011)

I do 40% a week plus various small gravel vacs here and there  So overkill? nawww


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## mr86mister (Sep 19, 2011)

Ok good. My W/C OCD is ok to have! haha


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## Rammer (Jun 6, 2011)

I love this thread!! I am actually going to eventually set up a GBR bitotope tank(Orinoco River in Venezuela). My stock list in a 40 breeder is 3 pairs of rams, 25 cardinal tetras, and 8 otos. I personally will probably be using black water additives to my tank to help with water chemistry and make it more natural. My substrate will most likely be Eco Complete mixed in with some pool filter sand or similar. My lfs has fine sand for about 25 cents a pound, ya just can't use a gravel vac on it with out taking some sand with you lol. I will be following this thread if it continues for sure!

Oh BTW I am just entering the salt water world of fish keeping lol. I will be keeping SPS down the road and my ram tank will be as clean as my reef lol if I get into the habit of it!


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## mr86mister (Sep 19, 2011)

Rammer- Glad this thread can help you out a bit. The world of Saltwater is insane and really so much you can do. Let me tell you, some of the toughest things is compatibility of fish. Get a good strong protein skimmer, high flow, high light, and pristine water and you should be able to get into SPS down the road for sure!


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## Rammer (Jun 6, 2011)

I have my fish picked out, just tweaking the tank a little bit. I purchased it off of craigslist and to say the least, it had some issues... I will hopefully set the ram tank up in the next month or so while I am waiting for the reef tank to cycle. Thanks for the tips!!


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