# A schwack of fishies



## Zaphod (Jun 9, 2015)

Our 75G tank has a few nice Africans in it... Not sure of all of their types or sexes so here are a few pictures...










One of the tiger stripe ones (not sure what they are called) won't close it's mouth. I suspect broken jaw... and the on eelectric yellow is in rough shape but we are treating it.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

1. OB Peacock female (man made hybrid)
2. OB Peacock male
3. common pleco
4. beat up Labidochromis caeruleus
5. Hybrid
6. Slightly deformed OB Peacock
7. Nimbochromis venestus
8. hybrid
9. OB Peacock


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## Zaphod (Jun 9, 2015)

Thank you! The yellow does seem beat up as opposed to fin rot, but the fungus still needs treated right?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Zaphod said:


> Thank you! The yellow does seem beat up as opposed to fin rot, but the fungus still needs treated right?


Yes it does.


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## Zaphod (Jun 9, 2015)

We started Tetracyclin last night.


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## Ten Tonne Tomahawk (Apr 24, 2015)

Fogelhund said:


> 1. OB Peacock female (man made hybrid)
> 2. OB Peacock male
> 3. common pleco
> 4. beat up Labidochromis caeruleus
> ...


#3 is not common Pleco or _Hypostomus Plecostomus_, it a sail finned Pleco, or _Pterygoplichthys gibbiceps_
The way to tell is that the Gibbiceps has a pattern consisting of lines, while the common pleco should have a pattern consisting of spots. (there are a miriad of species, but the common Pleco and the Sail finned Pleco are the most common.)


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Ten Tonne Tomahawk said:


> #3 is not common Pleco or _Hypostomus Plecostomus_, it a sail finned Pleco, or _Pterygoplichthys gibbiceps_
> The way to tell is that the Gibbiceps has a pattern consisting of lines, while the common pleco should have a pattern consisting of spots. (there are a miriad of species, but the common Pleco and the Sail finned Pleco are the most common.)


Very much disagree. Fish in question is a common pleco, _Pterygoplichthys paradalis_
You've got the pattern back wards: Sailfin pleco has the large distinct round spots, as well as a very large dorsal fin. Click on any of these sites and you will see it is not a match with the fish in question.https://www.google.ca/search?q=pter...&ei=1NqCVYX6EerIsQSMlxY&ved=0CIEBEIke#imgrc=_

On a common pleco, the spots join together to make sort of a 'worming' pattern. http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/species.php?species_id=88


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## Ten Tonne Tomahawk (Apr 24, 2015)

BC in SK said:


> Ten Tonne Tomahawk said:
> 
> 
> > #3 is not common Pleco or _Hypostomus Plecostomus_, it a sail finned Pleco, or _Pterygoplichthys gibbiceps_
> ...


On a Gibby, the lines across the face are fine, like the ones on the picture #3. I focused on the facial features. Looking again, he does lack the lighter skin coloured blotching and the higher head. 
I guess you're right.
Sorry, Fogulhund, I seem to have made an error.
No-one tells my wife, deal?

Just to be clear, Hypostomus Plecostomus is the same as Pterygoplichthys paradalis, right? Just an older name that the lab coats decided to change....


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Ten Tonne Tomahawk said:


> On a Gibby, the lines across the face are fine, like the ones on the picture #3. I focused on the facial features.


Whether young or older, the pattern on the face of a "gibby" is not at all, like the one in picture #3.


Ten Tonne Tomahawk said:


> Just to be clear, Hypostomus Plecostomus is the same as Pterygoplichthys paradalis, right? Just an older name that the lab coats decided to change....


No, 2 different species. Not even the same genus.
_Hypostomus plecostomus_ Described 1758. Commonly imported in the 60's and 70's, from Venezuela, Suriname, Guyanas. Not thought to have been bred in captivity. Not so common today as it needs to be caught live and imported.

_Pterygoplichthys pardalis_ Described 1855. Comes from the Amazon but is rarely imported as a wild caught today. Commercially produced in huge numbers by the ornamental fish industry and is the most commonly available Loricariidae species today (some Ancistrus species, bushy nose plecos, may becoming more common as they are also commercially produced).


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## Ten Tonne Tomahawk (Apr 24, 2015)

OK.
I think I get the issue now. It's more geographical and a result of Australia's poor range of cats. It is geographical from the point of view that some part of the world call things different names. I'm no expert on cats, as you may have established yourselves. In Australia, we have the Hypostamus Plecostamus (or Pterygoplichthys pardalis) and they are bred in large dams in the tropics of Australia to feed our local market. This is known, in Australia at least, as a "Common Pleco" A more sought after species is the Pterygoplichthys gibbiceps, due to it's nicer colouration, generally larger size and higher dorsal fin. This is known locally as a "Sail Fin Pleco", or simply a "Gibby". For a long time, these were the only two larger sized options available. Since then, what is locally known as an "Orange Spot Pleco" has become available, although, I admit to knowing nothing more about it. There are also Albino versions of all of these available as well.
In Australia, we have also had the "Common Bristle nosed catfish", sometimes referred to a Bristle nosed pleco in the continental US. This is what I believe to be Ancistrus cirrhosus. I recall it being called Temminckii and it seems I was not too far from the mark. It's likely a blend here. (I also recall the genus being called something in the order of Ambestoma, but I'm not 100% sure and my spelling is likely way off.) Bear in mind, my info is 10+ years old and I don't google it, I remember it. Regardless, the Bristle nosed catfish is of no relation to the larger Plecostamus, other than bearing a resemblance and thus sharing the name erroneously in the US. These Cats stay small and breed willingly in Aquariums, unlike their over sized friends. There are marbled, longfinned, peppermint and albino versions and combinations of, to name but a few.
Now, we have 2 very distinct sizes, the 'pleco' size and the Bristle nose size. 
If this fish (#3) is not from the list of fish I outlined above, it is highly probable that I have never seen it and am confusing it with something I have seen.
Also of note is the Pterygoplichthys pardalis may be here masquerading as a common pleco in the place of the Hypostamus of old if, as you suggest, it has been commercially bred. It would, however, have needed to have been smuggled illegally into Australia and I would likely have heard the whispers. Anything new here creates whispers and they spread like wildfire. 97% of cihlids are prohibited imports here. 99% of cats are. The common bristle nose catfish has never been legally imported into Australia. Never. It came in accidently as a pleco shipment sometime prior to '75 and has simply survived in the hobby via breeding and occasional smuggling.


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

Pterygoplichthys pardalis (which has had many name changes or mis-identifactions over the years) is thought to be the common mass market Pleco, since they can breed them by the millions in mud ponds and distribute world wide. There are a few related fish which have always had taxonomic or ID issues it seems.

The original Hypostomus plecostomus (or a related fish) is supposedly the original "Common Pleco" which was originally imported for aquariums 50 years ago. They do not intentionally import them anymore because there are more attractive fish so in theory they should not be in the hobby anymore.

Gibbiceps is also bred in ponds. Not sure why it doesn"t just replace the regular common Pterygoplichthys. All of these mud pond bred types are supposed to look much inferior to the wild fish, the wild fish have much better defined markings and are not so dull.


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## Ten Tonne Tomahawk (Apr 24, 2015)

noki said:


> Pterygoplichthys pardalis (which has had many name changes or mis-identifactions over the years) is thought to be the common mass market Pleco, since they can breed them by the millions in mud ponds and distribute world wide.
> *No. Not us, sorry. The continental US doesn't supply Australia anything)*
> The original Hypostomus plecostomus (or a related fish) is supposedly the original "Common Pleco" which was originally imported for aquariums 50 years ago. They do not intentionally import them anymore because there are more attractive fish so in theory they should not be in the hobby anymore.
> *Unless they have been able to breed them here (Australia), like the Pterygoplichthys species, I'd have to agree, but I guess I'll never know for sure.*
> ...


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

The OP is from Canada, not Australia. This is an I.D. thread.
The fish in question is the same kind of pleco in my tank; the same kind I see in other people's tank and the same kind that has been commonly available from an LFS for as long as I can remember. No reason to think it is anything but _Pterygoplichthys pardalis _. What is called here in North America under the common name "plecostomus" or "common pleco".
Interesting to speculate what is sold in Australia, but really nothing to do with the ID of this fish.
Would not need to be an expert what so ever, to distinguish _Hypostomus plecostomus_ from _P. pardalis_. Different body shape, different pattern on the body and different number of dorsal rays. Even with out counting dorsal rays, one good look at the dorsal fin would be enough to see the difference.


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## Ten Tonne Tomahawk (Apr 24, 2015)

BC in SK said:


> The OP is from Canada, not Australia. This is an I.D. thread.
> The fish in question is the same kind of pleco in my tank; the same kind I see in other people's tank and the same kind that has been commonly available from an LFS for as long as I can remember. No reason to think it is anything but _Pterygoplichthys pardalis _. What is called here in North America under the common name "plecostomus" or "common pleco".
> Interesting to speculate what is sold in Australia, but really nothing to do with the ID of this fish.
> Would not need to be an expert what so ever, to distinguish _Hypostomus plecostomus_ from _P. pardalis_. Different body shape, different pattern on the body and different number of dorsal rays. Even with out counting dorsal rays, one good look at the dorsal fin would be enough to see the difference.


I'm from Australia. I can also read the location of the OP. I'm well aware it is an I.D. thread. I'm sure you have one, since the OP is in Canada and you are next door. It would be a fair assumption that what's been in YOUR LFS for as long as you can remember is NOT in mine.
I'm not speculating anything about what's in Australia, I'm reporting fact. Trust me, I'd love a little exposure to the species you guys have up there. We're still getting over a smattering of L number cats.
My point is, what I saw there, in pic #3 didn't match what I remember "Common Plecos" to be. It also had the squiggly pattern on the muzzle. That is something that I had been led to believe indicated a Gibby. (It certainly isn't the only sign, but one of many) given the pic didn't offer much more to the inexperienced eye. You mention Dorsal rays and quite correctly, they are a fairly definitive way of sorting this out. Unfortunately, they are neatly folded down and disappear down the curve of the fish's spine in the only photo either of us has seen of the animal. 
It may well be easy to tell from one "common pleco" (Hypostomus plecostomus) to the other "common Pleco" (Pterygoplichthys pardalis), but if you have never seen them both side by side and had no idea there were 2 "common plecos" then you wouldn't even conceive of one fish actually being 2.
Also, if the new "common Pleco" is the Pterygoplichthys pardalis, it is the same family as the gibby, making my initial mistake a little more forgivable.
This is what we have, called a gibby here.

See the squiggly lines on the muzzle of the OP's photo? 
Similar to my 'Gibby' right, also in the OP's photo, under the fin, in what may be considered an 'armpit' on a fish, the blotched pattern, that is not consistent with the spotted pattern of the "common Plecos" that I have seen here.
This doesn't make me any less wrong, but it may just go to show that I didn't make an uneducated stab in the dark.
I don't have a photo of any of the "Common Plecos" that I have had to do a comparison.


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## BC in SK (Aug 11, 2012)

Pretty sure what is sold here as a "sailfin pleco" or "spotted sailfin pleco" is NOT the same fish as in your photo. 
_Pterygoplichthys gibbiceps_ is a highly variable species, but it really doesn't deviate too much from a spotted pattern such as the specimen in this photo:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/image.php?species=pterygoplichthys_gibbiceps&image_id=1096
Not 100% certain what kind of pleco yours is, but the pattern on the body is like that of _Pterogoplichthys pardalis_. "Common pleco" will vary considerably in terms of coloration: from a muddy brown showing no pattern to a lighter brown color showing a detailed pattern. Mine have changed color depending on what tank they are in. Here's a picture showing a lighter color and the detailed pattern on the head:http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/image.php?species=pterygoplichthys_pardalis&image_id=8066


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## Ten Tonne Tomahawk (Apr 24, 2015)

Mine looks like a cross between Hyp. Plecostamus and P. Gibbiceps, to be honest.
Kind of more like the Gibbiceps 'sub adult' picture on the planet catfish site. I can't do the link thing.


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

A hybrid of Pterygoplichthys pardalis might be more possible. There also is Pterygoplichthys joselimaianus in the hobby, which is more yellowish. Yeah, just like some cichlids, do we really know what these aquarium strains come from for sure?

A good Gibbeceps always reminded me of the Thing from the Fantastic Four. Always thought they were cool looking, don't see them like that anymore.

As for ID of Pterygoplichthys versus Hypostomus, here is a quote from Planet Catfish...
"Pterygoplichthys can be identified by the number of rays in the dorsal fin. More than 10 indicates that it's a Pterygoplichthys. Most other plecos have 8 or fewer rays (in particular the larger Hypostomus species that are most likely to be confused with Pterygoplichthys)."

As for names, this is all similar to the confusion with Aulonocara nyassae or Haplochromis ahli from the old days as trade names. The common "pleco" had a different genus a few years ago also... Liposarcus.


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## Ten Tonne Tomahawk (Apr 24, 2015)

This has a lot to do with why I'm not a big fan of "common names" for fish. Sure, I say Electric Yellow, or Electric Blue instead of the latin name, so I'm a bit hypocritical there, I admit. For me, they are more trouble than they are worth.
This big fat armour plated monstrosity in my tank will require some further digging, and I for one will stick to Synodontis cats for any advice I can give. It would seem Australia's supply isn't the envy of the world and thus isn't the best experience to draw on for accurate advice.


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