# Please help sex gold saum/green terrors



## stz (Jul 27, 2009)

Hi! I've got a pair of these which I'm having trouble sexing. Because they've been getting along I've been putting it off and assuming I've got a male and a female even though their behaviour and appearance gives me some doubts. Recently they've grown on some and they are now rearing up on each other. It is important to sex them because if they are both males I'll have to make the decision to move one on sharpish. Here is some images.

http://www.tropicalfishforums.co.uk/gal ... /9/2/3.jpg
http://www.tropicalfishforums.co.uk/gal ... /9/2/2.jpg
http://www.tropicalfishforums.co.uk/gal ... /9/2/1.jpg

Right. The same fish are on the left or right each time to make it easier. When I got them and since I've had them I've assumed that the guy on the left is a male, because:

Pro
Guy on left has more trailing fins of a male
Guy on left shows more aggressive attitude, chasing etc
More colouration in the body even if it is iffy.

Cons
Growing slower
Less colouration in the face

Been assuming the lady on the right is a female. Again:

Pro
Shows rounder fins.
As peaceful as it gets
Plainer body

Cons
Mucho face colouration
Growing faster

They fight for a while. Usually the 'female' wins and the 'male' rests or hides, 'she' doesn't really harass 'him' further. Occasionally the male wins and the 'female' hangs out and gets rubbed/flicked against for a while by 'him'. They've been lip locking alot though so I can't really let it keep on forever, I'm not really experienced with cichlid spawning but I assume that if they were actually a male and female they'd actually stop and spawn after a day or two of this right?

Heres some pics from when I got them.

The guy on the left.
http://www.tropicalfishforums.co.uk/gal ... 0_4963.jpg
And the one on the right.
http://www.tropicalfishforums.co.uk/gal ... 0_4966.jpg

They've been fighting like this for maybe 10 minutes a day since saturday. Today I've noticed a couple of missing scales on the 'female' and the 'male' is hiding as much as possible. Very dark colouration, small mouth wound. I've got the chance to return one tomorrow and a positive ID would be very helpful in deciding what to do. There are a few pots/caves in the tank and they sometimes hang around in one together but recently the 'male' is reluctant to come out at all apart from for food.

I suppose that could mean 'he' is actually a 'she' and there could be eggs somewhere but as 'he' picks two spots to hide in I really doubt it. I've also not seen any but I've not gone pulling things apart.

Mucho appreciated if you can help.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

After reading what you've wrote and looking at all the pictures provided I'm inclined to think the one on the right in all the pictures is the male. That was my gut reaction when I first looked at the pictures... BUT I've never been good at sexing young green terrors. I've had young GT's spawn but was still never confident in the sex of the who was who in the pair :lol:

Not sure what my post accomplished... :lol:


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## stz (Jul 27, 2009)

Ah in the end I realised that I'll never be able to sex these fish unless I get really lucky. I've been looking at pictures of juveniles and adults who both share traits from either sex. It looks like venting or witnessing extreme male or female behaviour (such as laying eggs!  ) is the only reliable way to determine.

They stopped lip locking but one had taken to hiding and had gone very dark. Both fish had damaged each other too. I took the guy on the left back to where I got him. They were happy to have him back an inch or two bigger. I'd rather one happy displaying fish with nice fins than two ragged unhappy hiding fish.

Ended up with some more silver dollars for one tank and some more tiger barbs and shrimp for another.


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## Ronny_M (Jan 8, 2009)

Before reading your post, I looked at the pics and at first glance the one on the right looked more male to me to.

But after reading your post I was a bit undecided.

Looking at your third picture though, it looks like they both have their organs sticking out.
In my experience, males generally have a smaller pointed organ where females have a thicker, rounded one.

Judging by that, I'd say the one on the right is a female and the other a male, but it is very hard to tell from that pic.

Have you tried venting them? May also be difficult at that size but worth a go?


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## Chromedome52 (Jul 25, 2009)

Well, unless my computer is reversing the photos, the fish on the left is a female: note the dark black mark in the center of the body with white areas on either side; Less intense reflective color on the flanks; and the much less prominent orange caudal band. The one on the right is the male, much stronger reflective coloration and a broad orange band on the tail.

If the one on the left is suddenly hiding in a pot, I'd be checking for eggs and/or wigglers.


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

If I had to choose---I'd say the one on the right was male, and the one on the left is female; however, it's very tough to tell when they are small. I've had females that were just as bright as any of my males, and I've had "ugly duckling" males before. Usually, I can't tell until 2 pair off from a group.


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## stz (Jul 27, 2009)

Thanks for the replies but I've got to say I've returned the one on the left. To summarise.

Left = female colouration but male attitude, after fighting hid if lost, slapped/rubbed if won.
Right = male colouration but female attitude, after fighting displayed if won, floated if lost.

Both had almost identical looking vents. The left had darkened in colour and taken to hiding including some strange behaviour behind some pots. No eggs or anything but a small excavated patch.

There is a real difference between 'needing to know the sex to avoid an aquatic war' and 'if I had to guess at calling one a male and one a female'. Because of this I knew I'd never be able to accurately sex.


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## BRANT13 (Feb 18, 2009)

sounds like u had a possible pair......why you return one :-?


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## stz (Jul 27, 2009)

Because it was impossible to accurately sex them. Because they were lip locking daily. Because they had injured each other on the face, the lips and were missing scales etc. Because one fish had lost all colour and taken to hiding and was obviously as stressed as it is possible to get.

I mean, after 4 days of it. No eggs. No sign of co-operation I've got to either use a tank divider in order to give them some space and hope in a month or so they can handle reintroduction, or hope they settle down, or hope they breed and hope they don't kill the rest of the tanks occupants, or allow one fish to be bullied to death, or allow both of them to accept a temporary truce but occasionally rip each others fins off and maybe succumb to a secondary infection, maybe lose an eye.

I may have had a male/female pair but it obviously was a forced pairing IF it even was a pair. I've spoken to people who have breed them and they say they are usually a good as gold when they pair and pick mates naturally.

Pretty much because I had the chance to return one. Because all outcomes bar successful settle and breeding or both being female would result in death/injury/stress. I didn't really fancy those odds hey, I'm not trying to maintain an aquatic arena.

Also from looking at pictures of young and old and talking to people I came to the conclusion it would be impossible to accurately and beyond all doubt sex these fish at this age.


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## stz (Jul 27, 2009)

I mean, look at this grown pair. They've breed and one is male and one is female. Would you like to put money on which one is which if you didn't know that it is one of each?

http://www.tropicalfishforums.co.uk/for ... 1248726487

http://www.tropicalfishforums.co.uk/for ... 1248726487


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## oldcatfish (May 27, 2009)

stz, you made the right decision.

In my experience GT's aren't the easiest fish to pair up, especially with just 2 (even if they are male/female). I've always had to use the group of at least 6 method to get a good pair----and even then the males can be very rough on the females. I've had males that would kill all other GT's except the chosen female....but still give her a daily beating. And yet the same male is relatively peaceful with other species of cichlids, when kept without a mate. Gt's just generally don't like their own kind.


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## thinking_fish (Aug 13, 2007)

I would guess the one on the right is male but they are a little young yet.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

the one on the right looks like a male with tattered and torn fins.


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