# Fish ID questions and sex my yellow labs?



## jkop (Jul 29, 2007)

Hi there,

Just like to say what a great site this is! I've leant a lot from the Library! On the downside it's made me want to build a tank the size of my house :lol:

I just wanted to try and sex my Yellow Labs as now they are bigger I'd like to get them to breed and to correct any ratio problems (they were bought very small)

Not the best picture but I'm 99% sure this is Male, he acts like the Alpha Male:










What about these ones?


















I have two others but they wouldn't sit still for me 

I also recently purchased some Dragon Blood's (not to everyone's taste I know) - are they too small to sex? Pretty sure from the colour on the first one compared with the others, he's Male.


























ALso what species are these? (Sex also be interesting)










Finally! I rescued this fish from a friend who was getting rid, what fish is this? It seems fine with my other fish but want to make sure: (Not sure how well you can see but there are black vertical bars behind the blue body)


















Sorry to ask so many questions, but I want to make sure all is well


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## copasetic (Nov 26, 2007)

labs- no one can accurately sex them from photo's, but i can say something is not right with 2nd pic of lab, Hybreed? 
Dragon bloods- look too young to sex other than top male, sub males will have same look as females.
Nest species- They are a carbo(bumble bee)
Last rescue fish- Unsure on this one. could be type of zebra doesnt look pure tho..


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## jkop (Jul 29, 2007)

Thanks - any pointers on how to sex my labs myself?

The bumble Bee one is this right?

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/m_crabro.php

I know the Rescue isn't a Zebra - I know what you mean from the last photo but looks more like in the top photo in real life but with some faint bars


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## dreday (Oct 12, 2007)

yea that one. crabro.

and the blue one saulosi maybe???
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1

also with the labs there are a few ways of determining males but i dont see any of those traits. but that does not mean that the supposed alpha male is not a male. usually the alpha male will grow the fastest and claim a large territory.

also the 2nd lab looks fine. i would not say hybrid, just genetic variation. every time a fish does not look like its poster match it becomes a hybrid when in fact it is pure. not every single fish is gonna be a show stopper. :thumb:

but to be sure you would have to vent them. and good luck. i tried and i could not do it at even 2"!!! i just wait until they have eggs in there mouth. :lol: which by the way left my original group of 9 labs with only 1 female in it :roll:


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## NYjets51 (Feb 10, 2008)

Your rescued fish could be what is called on this site a Metriaclima Zebra.


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## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

dreday said:


> also the 2nd lab looks fine. i would not say hybrid, just genetic variation. every time a fish does not look like its poster match it becomes a hybrid when in fact it is pure. not every single fish is gonna be a show stopper. :thumb:


Actually, the second lab does not look fine, and it is not a genetic variation. Any "lab" that lacks completely the black a lab should have, is a hybrid.


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## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

dreday said:


> also the 2nd lab looks fine. i would not say hybrid, just genetic variation. every time a fish does not look like its poster match it becomes a hybrid when in fact it is pure. not every single fish is gonna be a show stopper. :thumb:


Actually, the second lab does not look fine, and it is not a genetic variation. Any "lab" that lacks completely the black a lab should have, is a hybrid.


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## jkop (Jul 29, 2007)

Hi

Thanks for all the comments.

The Rescue fish, I checked the Zebra and I don't think it is, the mouth seems very different and the vertical bars are very very faint on it. It's also got yellow hue on the tail and fins. It's also not at all agressive which I'd expect from a Zebra.

re: Lab. I took a closer look and he does have Black lines on all fins, they are just quite faint and the flash was used in that particular shot which bleached it out.


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## dreday (Oct 12, 2007)

well do albino labs have any black stripes on them??? not trying to argue but just trying to figure out whats happening. everyone just loves to throw out hybrids so quick now.

i have some labs like the 3rd pic with very faint black. from the same clutch as some of the others i got. the others are simply stunning and much larger too. they are 3.5" while the faint one is 2". they are brothers and i think it is just due to variation.


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## bac3492 (Jul 25, 2008)

For the labs, look for egg spots. The best way is to vent however. Catch the fish in a net flip it over carefully. Look at their stomach and you will see 2 dots. the males dots/vent is( oo ) females look more like (oO) with a bigger vent


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## copasetic (Nov 26, 2007)

Its not the lack of black in pic # 2 that should raise questions. Its the red zebra like shade of its color that concerns me..


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## chapman76 (Jun 30, 2004)

For yellow lab #2 is the color to a point, but more so the lack of black. ALL yellow labs have black. Those so called albino yellow labs are hybrids also. Poorly bred yellow labs will have incomplete black or be a very washed out yellow. Nothing about this fish looks pure. Again, I will stress ALL as in every single pure Labidochromis caeruleus on the face of the plant has black. Period.

The last rescue fish is a Pseudotropheus saulosi. Everything about it screams saulosi. The reflective patch on the gill plate, the barring, the coloring, and pretty much everything else. The barring isn't black, it's a dark blue. It's also not that visible because he's far down the dominance chain I'm guessing.


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## copasetic (Nov 26, 2007)

chapman76 said:


> Again, I will stress ALL as in every single pure Labidochromis caeruleus on the face of the plant has black. Period.


The variant we know as electric yellow is a L.caeruleus from lions cove.. L caeruleus has lake wide distribution. Some of those do not have black or yellow!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

copasetic, could you specify some of the variants of Labidochromis Caeruleus that do not have the black? I'd like to look them up in my Ad Konings book, I'm not familiar with them.


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## Joea (May 25, 2004)

dreday said:


> well do albino labs have any black stripes on them??? not trying to argue but just trying to figure out whats happening. everyone just loves to throw out hybrids so quick now.
> 
> i have some labs like the 3rd pic with very faint black. from the same clutch as some of the others i got. the others are simply stunning and much larger too. they are 3.5" while the faint one is 2". they are brothers and i think it is just due to variation.


Albino _L. caeruleus_ available in the hobby are likely hybrids as well.

All yellow variants of _L. caeruleus_ have black in their fins. Any yellow _L. caeruleus_ without any black at all, that are sold as _L. caeruleus_, are hybrids. The absence of black is not genetic, not a variant trait nor can it be line-bred out. Very faint black is still black.

My guess for fish #2 would also be a _L. caeruleus/M. estherae_ mix. A very common hybrid in the hobby unfortunately.

Eggspots are not an accurate way to determine the sex of any mbuna. As stated, venting is the only way to determine sex of _L. caeruleus_. There are no physical traits to differentiate male and female _L. caeruleus_.


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## jkop (Jul 29, 2007)

thanks for all the answers!

I spoke to my LFS and as I'd like them to breed they are going to swap #2 for a pure female for me and I'm going to get another couple of females, to address the probable ratio imbalance.

This fish was originally out of there "what's left over" bargain tank which may explain.


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## copasetic (Nov 26, 2007)

DJRansome said:


> copasetic, could you specify some of the variants of Labidochromis Caeruleus that do not have the black? I'd like to look them up in my Ad Konings book, I'm not familiar with them.


Straight out of my ad konings book. 3rd edition. L.Caeruleus form Kaiser point is all white no black and no yellow.. And from Lundu is just more creamy white still no black.. Variants from undu point and chizumulu are blue with black barring. Thats just going by the photo page, now i will quote us a paragraph from my fav. cichlidiot 
"Within a single population of L.caeruleus there may be some individuals with a black submarginal band in the dorsal and some that are entirely white. Such polymorphism should not be regarded as specific variation. There is a gradual change in the color pattern of the individuals of each neighboring population. In Tanzania the most northerly populations are entirely white; at Lundu males have a yellowish patch on the head; at Thumbi point males have a blue hue all over the body; and at liuli the population exhibit a degree of barring on the white body, a feature that is intensified in those at hongi and lundo island. In Mozambique, at Liutche these bars have almost dissappeared, and at londo L.caeruleus is white with a black band in the dorsal fin. Mixed population(with or without a submarginal band in the dorsal) are also found at Nkhata Bay in Malawi."
He then goes on to talk about the "mother of pearl" or perlmutt. how he is unsure if its just a variant of L.caeruleus or a single species.


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## chapman76 (Jun 30, 2004)

copasetic said:


> The variant we know as electric yellow is a L.caeruleus from lions cove.. L caeruleus has lake wide distribution. Some of those do not have black or yellow!


Sorry, I was too vague for most people. All of the yellow variants HAVE black. The blue ones might or might not. All of the yellow ones do.


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## jkop (Jul 29, 2007)

I took a look at hte species page and they are a dwarf species right? My fish is much bigger (5")



chapman76 said:


> For yellow lab #2 is the color to a point, but more so the lack of black. ALL yellow labs have black. Those so called albino yellow labs are hybrids also. Poorly bred yellow labs will have incomplete black or be a very washed out yellow. Nothing about this fish looks pure. Again, I will stress ALL as in every single pure Labidochromis caeruleus on the face of the plant has black. Period.
> 
> The last rescue fish is a Pseudotropheus saulosi. Everything about it screams saulosi. The reflective patch on the gill plate, the barring, the coloring, and pretty much everything else. The barring isn't black, it's a dark blue. It's also not that visible because he's far down the dominance chain I'm guessing.


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## chapman76 (Jun 30, 2004)

Dwarf is a misleading. My males were significantly larger than my females. My males would hit 4-5". The females would typically top out in the 3-4" range. They considered dwarf, but I'm not sure why. They're bulky for 5" also.


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## copasetic (Nov 26, 2007)

yes i have a 3yr old boy i call jumbo.. he must be 5". Chapman read the first part of konings quote again.. I believe that applies to all L.caeruleus even the lions cove variant(electic yellows).


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Well, I like the ones with the black! And yes, I forgot that the non-yellow morphs are also L.C.


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## jkop (Jul 29, 2007)

Many thanks for this post!

I returned the hybrid and got two 100% females today. We vented the fish to find the females too which was cool!

Is this method true for all cichlids?

I saw a Aulonocara Calico - I can't find any references to it in the profiles section but I can find references on the web in patchy detail. Is it known as something else?



bac3492 said:


> For the labs, look for egg spots. The best way is to vent however. Catch the fish in a net flip it over carefully. Look at their stomach and you will see 2 dots. the males dots/vent is( oo ) females look more like (oO) with a bigger vent


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## dreday (Oct 12, 2007)

only for the ones that are monomorphic.(sp) or as juvies. peacocks and haps tend to be the same when young. so around 1" you could vent to get the right sex ratio.

labs, acei, red zebras are monomorphic meaning the males and females look the same. they have slight differences but they are not a guarantee on sex. any sub male can look like a female and a dom female can look like a male.(sometimes)


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## Joea (May 25, 2004)

jkop said:


> I saw a Aulonocara Calico - I can't find any references to it in the profiles section but I can find references on the web in patchy detail. Is it known as something else?


Probably an OB Peacock. A man-made hybrid.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... hp?id=1372


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