# aggression? disease? please help



## grafxalien (Mar 26, 2008)

I have a 75 gal tank, and it seems like the past month my mbunas have been more agressive and skittish than normal. I have a couple fish that look like they have been bitten on their underside. However, I am not sure if bites can do this or not since I am relatively new to cichlids. The cobue(wild caught) that has these bites also has not eaten in over a week. He will take in food, hold it a second and spit it out (NLS cichlid). 
The other fish I am concearned about is what I think is a zebra obliquidens. He has been taking a lot of harrasment lately, and a couple days ago I noticed a white fuzzy spot on his tail fin...not sure what this is. Tank info and pics below. Any help would be appreciated, I really do not want to lose any fish...thanks

Tank info:

About 6 weeks ago I began to buffer and add some cichlid salt to get params to ph 8.4, gh and kh ~10. I did this slowly over the course of a month. I also do 30% water changes ever 1-2 weeks. Water seems pretty clean, 0 ammonia 0 nitrite not sure of nitrate bc my kit doesnt have that, but should be ok i think bc of regular water changes. However, i did notice some little white sprout looking things on a rock today that I have never seen before..not sure if that helps or not..

Pics

Cobue:

















A mixed guy that has similar bite marks (easier to see. Also, he is still eating like a champ)









Zebra obliquidens( the spot is very hard to see in the picture..)


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## efors (Jun 10, 2008)

Hello, grafxalien!
Now that I see the pics, I don't think those marks are bites. IMO, they look like fungal or bacterial infection (more likely to be fungi). I would love to see what other guys can say here about this; but I really think you should treat your tank with something like Pimafix.
Once again, good luck!
PS- I am concerned about the increase in pH maybe acting as a stress factor. It is better to have a stable lower pH than an unstable higher one. What was originally the water pH, before using cichlid salt?


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## grafxalien (Mar 26, 2008)

before adding the buffer, the tank was ph 7.2, GH 9 KH 1


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## grafxalien (Mar 26, 2008)

also, I 3 acei's and a mbamba that were taking a lot of heat in the tank. The mbamba had very similar sores under her mouth. I moved those 4 fish to a new tank I had set up for a new shipment of fish (that I have now put off). The tank has extremely similar water paras, +/- 1 GH/KH . A couple days later, the mbamba's sores are fine. and the aceis look better too


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

What is the full stock list (including male/female ratios) of the tank?

How long has this been going on?

Any losses?

I don't believe those are bites, either.

You raised the ph over the last 6 weeks, or did you raise it suddenly and have maintained it over the last 6 weeks?


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## efors (Jun 10, 2008)

Hmmm... Did those 4 fishes get better without any medication? Is there in the main tank any fish or fishes without white marks or sores of any kind? If you answer yes to both questions, then there may be at least an aggressor easy to identify. Anyways, if the sores are bites, I think they may have developed bacterial or fungal secondary infection. In that case I would treat the victims in your new tank with salt to help them in the healing process and with something like Pimafix, as I said before.
PS- Maybe it will be necessary to remove the aggressor(s) to another tank (if there is anyone).
Best wishes!!! :wink:


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## grafxalien (Mar 26, 2008)

The pH was raised over a couple week period, but has now been constant for ~3 weeks.

There was 1 male m. greshakei, 1 male l. chisumulae, 1 male c. afra cobue, 4 unknown acei, 1 male 1 female m. estherae, 1 female m. auratus 1 female l. mbamba , 1 male zebra obliquidens and 2 ,mixed cichlids.

As you can see, it is quite a mix of thing(not all my fault, bought tank from my brother with most of the fish already in it), this is why I sold my piranhas from my 55 gal tank and planed on moving some cichlids over and getting correct ratios.

10 days ago I lost my largest acei (3"). I got back from class and saw it getting beat up bad by the greshakei, so I put her in a hospital asap, died that night. At that point I moved the 3 other aceis to the 55gallon tank so they wouldnt be harassed. The male estherae and female mbamba have also been moved to the 55 bc of agression I have seen. All of the fish in the 55 gallon seem fine. The mbamba had the same marks under her mouth, but they are completely gone now that she has been in the other tank


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## efors (Jun 10, 2008)

Well, if the problem is aggression, just do the salt treatment and consider to remove the aggressor(s).


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## grafxalien (Mar 26, 2008)

neither tanks have meds yet. I just noticed the the mixed guy that is in the above picture now has similar lesions on his pelvic fins. The lesions almost look transparent in the middle. I also just noticed on my last feeding, the cobue didnt attempt to eat any 1mm NLS pellets, but waited until there was smaller debris of it and ate a lot of that, and didnt spit it out

All off the fish look to have some type of injury on them. Most of them it is very small amount though, and i am not sure that I am not just seeing things now that I think it could be a disease of some sort. I cant see any white lesions on the greshakei, but it could be because he is so light. However, he does have a bruise mouth area


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## efors (Jun 10, 2008)

Be alert and if the white lesions turn fluffy, treat them with a med for fungal infection.
Keep in touch. I would like to read some good news about this case in the near future.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I think you're dealing with more of a bacterial infection than a fungal infection. That isn't to say that the infection didn't stem from injuries or wounds.

This may be full blown Columnaris, in which case you will need to move quickly. Slowly drop your temp to 76 - this will slow the spread of the disease. Do a good sized water change (40%), and treat the tank with Maracyn and Maracyn II together, or Kanamycin. I would treat the tank for at least 7 days, preferably 10. Squeeze in a couple of water changes just prior to adding medications for the day during this period.

After seeing your stock list, I dare say that aggression (or stress) at the very least may be involved, whether they look like bite marks or not. You have far too many males in the tank, and as you said, the stock list is adding to your problems. I would seperate all suspected females into another tank and see if things calm down until you decide where you're going with this set up. It isn't going to work long term as it is. :thumb:


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## grafxalien (Mar 26, 2008)

well..I am on day 4 of pimafix treatment. I also have added 3tbsp per 5 gal NaCl. Seems to be slight improvement I think, it hard to tell. The cobue still isnt eating, which worries me. However, still no losses, which is good.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Did you read my last post? :wink:

Pimafix is a preventative for fungal infection. It does not contain any antibiotics and isn't going to help a bacterial infection.

If the fish isn't eating, your choice of treatment isn't likely going to help.


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## efors (Jun 10, 2008)

Hi!
I'm sorry, grafxalien but if after 4 days of Pimafix treatment it is hard to see any improvement, you must use antibiotics as cichlidaholic says. So please, do a good water change and start the antibiotics treatment that cichlidaholic suggested you on a previous post.


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## grafxalien (Mar 26, 2008)

uhg, what ever is going on is getting aggravating. The color and size of the areas that are affected seem to change almost on an hourly basis. This morning, it seemed like most of the cobue's lesions were gone, and the area look normal. Now it has white area all on the underside again. I have also noticed, they are seeming to get more small translucent areas on their fins. ... I guess its off to buy some antibiotic tomorrow..hopefully that works because this guessing with treatment gets expensive.


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## grafxalien (Mar 26, 2008)

uhg, what ever is going on is getting aggravating. The color and size of the areas that are affected seem to change almost on an hourly basis. This morning, it seemed like most of the cobue's lesions were gone, and the area look normal. Now it has white area all on the underside again. I have also noticed, they are seeming to get more small translucent areas on their fins. ... I guess its off to buy some antibiotic tomorrow..hopefully that works because this guessing with treatment gets expensive.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I hope you haven't waited too late to initiate proper treatment. 

They've been a week without the antibiotics.


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## grafxalien (Mar 26, 2008)

do you think melafix would help any? Those antibiotics are too expensive for me right now...I am treating the whole 75 gal tank because multiple fish have whatever is going on..and they wouldn't fit in a 10 gal


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

No, Melafix won't help iif it's a bacterial infection. Columnaris is deadly. Melafix is good, but it's only a preventative for bacterial infection. It won't treat an actual infection.

You'll have to weigh the cost of treating the tank against possibly losing your entire stock list.


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## grafxalien (Mar 26, 2008)

uhg. Such a **** hard decisions. If I knew it would work, i would do it. Its just hard making a decision to spend so much money when all of the fish are still eating good and active, other than the cobue. However, as I said earlier, I saw him eating small particles of food, and assume he has been doing that all along because he has not lost any weight. This has been going on for a while now, and it just seems like everything I read about columnaris says that the fish will be dead quick. Why cant there be a website that has pictures of disease?? that would make things much much easier haha


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

grafxalien said:


> uhg, what ever is going on is getting aggravating. The color and size of the areas that are affected seem to change almost on an hourly basis. This morning, it seemed like most of the cobue's lesions were gone, and the area look normal. Now it has white area all on the underside again. I have also noticed, they are seeming to get more small translucent areas on their fins. ... I guess its off to buy some antibiotic tomorrow..hopefully that works because this guessing with treatment gets expensive.


This post indicates that things aren't getting better.

The expense of getting a 100% positive diagnosis will be far greater than treating the fish, but if you want to know for sure, you'll need to find a vet that treats fish.

If you use the Maracyn and Maracyn II, you're treating for both gram positive and gram negative bacteria, which would take care of Columnaris along with any secondary infections from allowing it to go on for so long. (Kanamycin might be cheaper, but it might not be as effective.)

Fish can linger for weeks with Columnaris. I euthanized several because I couldn't stand to see them suffer any longer, and I misdiagnosed it initially and treated improperly.

I really don't know what else to tell you. I've recommended what I would do in your situation.

I know that it would be alot more costly for me to lose my fish than it would be to invest in the meds to treat them. Granted, I wouldn't go through months of expensive treatment, but I just feel that when I take on a pet, I'm responsible for their care. :roll:


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## grafxalien (Mar 26, 2008)

A new update. So tuesday night I decided I was going to move the cobue to the 10 gal tank, and wednesday when I got back from class I was going to start antibiotics. I transfered the cobue as planned on tuesday night, but to my surprise, when I got home on wednesday his lesion looked to be healing. I decided to wait one more day without antibiotics to see what would happen. Thursday he was even better. Today, there are NO visible lesions. However, he is still hiding and not eating, which worries me. This got me to thinking, the same thing happened when I took my mbamba out of the 75gal tank and into the empty 55 gal tank. Her lesions healed in a couple days, with no treatment...

It seemed like when the cobue was in the 75 gal the lesions would heal, but new ones would appear at the same rate.

I also found two new patches of some weird looking growths on rocks in the 75 tonight. I tried getting some pictures, but I could not get any in focus. The are small white sprout looking things like the diagram below. They occur in patches and wave in water current. Any idea what this could be?

Also, does anyone know if penicillin and streptomycin are safe for aquarium use? I know penicillin has good gram + and streptomycin has good gram - coverage, but I do not know if they are fish safe, or beneficial bacterial safe. I ask this because I can obtain these antibiotics cheaply through my lab.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I don't think either med would hurt if you could find out the appropriate dosage to use.


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## grafxalien (Mar 26, 2008)

GOOD NEWS. The cobue in the 10 gal hasnt had lesions in days and is back to eating like a champ today. Even took down medium sized Hikari pellets!!

I was thinking last night about all of the things going on, and how removing 2 fish led to them getting better. I also remembered, that I ran out of the normal tap conditioner that I had been using, and started using some stuff my roomate had bought in my 75 gal tank. I kept using the same amount, without thinking about concentration difference. I checked the label last night and it was MUCH less concentrated than my old stuff so I had not been using nearly enough as it recomended. I picked up some Prime today and did my water changes with that instead of his stuff. Could chlorine/chloramine cause some of the problems I have been experiencing? Namely skittishnes, slight fraying of fins, and small chest area lesions? This could explain why the cobue got better in the 10 gal tank with no meds...


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Yes, both can cause external inflammation.


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## efors (Jun 10, 2008)

Hi, grafxalien!
Congratulations for the good news; I feel very happy about that. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


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## grafxalien (Mar 26, 2008)

i'll keep you updated on if using Prime fixes the 75 gal.. hopefully it works. And if it does, I learned a lesson!


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## grafxalien (Mar 26, 2008)

hmm, thought it was working. The underside of the mixed guy I posted the picture of was about completely healed up, then yesterday an entire new batch of lesions appeared...this really is confusing me. Also, I noticed yesterday that the estherae is now holding...kind of makes me think the water is fine if she is holding...


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## efors (Jun 10, 2008)

Hi!
I feel very sorry about that, grafxalien. I think you should end using antibiotics; but if that female is holding, things are complicated a little bit now.


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## grafxalien (Mar 26, 2008)

yea. i just dont know what to do, especially since removing fish from that tank, and putting them in another tank without any treatment makes them get better. Really makes me think they are just scraping rocks...but who knows...argh


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Did you ever initiate any actual treatment?


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## grafxalien (Mar 26, 2008)

I added pimafix to the whole tank, it did nothing. I have removed two fish from the tank of the course of this, and put them in a tank with just salt. No other treatment. And they both had no lesions in 2-3 days.


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## grafxalien (Mar 26, 2008)

Ok, another strange turn of events to report. So I get back yesterday after being gone for the weekend and my roomate left a note that the filter on the 10 gal, which had the cubue in it, stopped working sometime over the weekend. The cobue still looked fine, but I moved him back to the 75gal since it would be a couple days to get the 10 gal running agian. There was some elevated agression of course for a couple hours after adding him, but it settled back down. Well, i just checked him, and he already has one lesion on his underside. So, he went from having lesions in the 75, to having no lesions in 2 days when i put him in the 10 gal. He continues to have no lesions for the couple weeks he was in the 10. Then, within ONE day of putting him back in the 75, he has a lesion again....?!?!?!


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

> After seeing your stock list, I dare say that aggression (or stress) at the very least may be involved, whether they look like bite marks or not. You have far too many males in the tank, and as you said, the stock list is adding to your problems. I would seperate all suspected females into another tank and see if things calm down until you decide where you're going with this set up. It isn't going to work long term as it is.


I really think you need to read back through the thread.

If it is bacterial infections (from wounds or whatever the source) you've never properly treated these fish. Melafix and Pimafix are preventative meds. They don't do much once the problem exists.

Your stock list is highly indicative of aggression issues, and now you're questioning why the "lesions" reoccur when you moved the fish back into the main tank? Your answers are way back in page 1. :thumb:


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## grafxalien (Mar 26, 2008)

well, after some more thought today, i think I may have some type of parasite. take a look at the picture below, this is what the mixed guy used to look like. Lots of yellow, now he is just dark (pic on first page). The picture of the auratus is from what she used to look like, now she he yellow is also very muddy and dark.

The more i think about the "lesions" on the mixed guy, the more I dont think they are just from agression and hitting rocks etc. They seem to change shape and reappear in different locations way too fast. They also have a pearly white with a hint of blue appearance to them. This kind of sounds like what I have read about parasites.

Does this sound like I could have a parasite? If you know of any good resources online that describe/have pictures of parasite infections, I would love to read them.

I know the aggression in the tank is a huge part, it probably is keeping the fish slightly stressed, so their immune system cant fight off the infection. But, I cant really do anything about giving these guys to other people until I get them in good health...


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Fish will darken from stress. That isn't necessarily indicative of illness. The fish in the top pic looks part crabro, so the darkening could also indicate a male. The auratus could also be a subdominant male, or a stressed female.

See what I'm trying to tell you about it being hard to pinpoint problems in a high stress tank?

They could be sick, but until the stressors in the tank are alleviated, it's going to be very difficult to figure things out.


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## grafxalien (Mar 26, 2008)

well I put the mixed guy in a 10 gal tank(no meds, just NaCl) by himself. Once again, within one day all of the lesions were gone. I really dont understand what could heal that fast. Even if it is a wound from hitting a rock, I would think it would take longer than one day..

He is still the dark color, but like you said, could be just displaying make colors...


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## grafxalien (Mar 26, 2008)

went to aquarium adventure today and asked some workers there about it, and they said they had never heard of anything like what I was describing....


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## Suzanne (Jul 29, 2007)

With regards to aggression only, I was speaking with a fish retailer and I was telling him my frustration with the agression in my tank and the death of fish which I thought was due to the stress of the agression. The sales person told me add many fake plants to the tank to slow the agression down quickly. Although I thought he was just trying to "over sell" me, I bought a bunch of plants and added them to the tank. WOW! he was correct. It did dramatically lower the aggression in the tank. It takes a little more time to clean, however my fish are very happy and that tank looks good! Just a thought.......

Suzanne


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## Doane (Jun 19, 2007)

I think at this point, fake plants would be too expensive for the OP. If meds are too expensive, fake plants may be as well.

To the OP. Take Kim's advise, she knows here stuff. When you browse the threads and someone has MODERATOR under their name, they typically are breeders / storeowners / people with waaaayyy more experience than the average joe. If you want to know whats wrong with your fish tank, take Kims advise and head bad to the first page of the thread, she told you how to get your fish healthy, so you can resolve your aggression issues.

Best of Luck.


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