# Minimum tank size question.



## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

hey guys, i have a guy that will make any size tank i want, as in any dimensions, what would the minimum dimension size be for either:

- A Pair of Salvinis 
- A Pair of Firemouths
or
- A Pair of Carpintis

thanx,
Gage


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128 (Mar 22, 2006)

Hey there gage!

The minimum tank size for a pair of Salvini's or Firemouths would either be a 40 gal breeder or a 55 gal but the best way to go for the Salvini would be a 75 gal IMO.

As for the Carpintis it would be a 75 gal and even in then it would be rather risky and the best way to go would be a 125 gal. As far as what I have heard they are VERY much like their cousins the Texas.

Personally if I were you I would either go with the Salvini or the Carpintis. :thumb:


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

I think gage meant a pair of sals plus a pair of firemouths or texas.

Which I would think you'd need a 6 foot tank for a pair of sals and a pair of texas.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128 (Mar 22, 2006)

Oh! Sorry about that! 

Then yeah for a pair of Salvini and Firemouths I think a 125 gal would be the absolute minimum.

With a pair of Salvini and Carpintis I think it would have to go bigger. Because of the sizes of the Salvini and Carpintis and also the aggression. I think a 150 or 180 would be the absolute minimum for a pair of Salvini and Carpintis.


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## Joels fish (Nov 17, 2007)

Maybe I'm wrong here but I don't believe there is a lot of difference in footprint between these tanks. If *gage* can get any dimension he wants, then IMO he's best served by an 8' tank like a 250 or 300g . That gives him ample room not only for a full grown pair of Carpentis, but just about anything else he can think of too . Just my 2 cents.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

nonono, i meant a Pair of sals, OR a pair of firemouths, OR a pair of carpintis. i dont want more then 1 pair per tank! lol

id like to have all 3 of these fish in pairs in separate tanks for each pair, as i want to do Biotopes for all them, but i need to know the minimum dimensions i can go with for each to know if i will have room.

im not to partial to the carpintis but id like to do at least a pair of firemouths in one tank and a pair of salvinis in the other.

would a pair of salvinis work in a 42"x12" tank?


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

btw, if i had room for an 8' tank id get a pair of dovii for it lol.


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## Joels fish (Nov 17, 2007)

Well that clears things up a bit then :lol: . Sals and FMs would be fine in a 55g the carpentis would need more like a 75g or 90g . Since it's just gonna be the pairs in each, 4' tanks ought to be all you need. Plus some grow out tanks of course.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

hmph, my only problem, being 15, i only have my bedroom to work with as far as tanks, and i cant really fit 2 full blown 48" tanks more then i already have lol, so theres no way of Sals being happy in a 42" tank then huh? dam, oh well, i tryed LOL


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

i keep reading that the minimum tank size for a pair of firemouths is a 35g (36x12) is this just enough to keep them alive or to keep them happy, because if they wont be happy in here then im not doing it, but im curious and need to know if they will be happy and content in there, i mean, within reason, they should be happy as long as i provide them with what they need, no? and knowing me probably will be spoiled like crazy, im just like that LOL, i spoil all my little animals! lol. i might be able to fit another 4' down in my bedroom, ill have to see once i get my 90g tank down there (i just switched rooms so i dont have all my tank set up down there yet).


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## Hubbynz (May 10, 2008)

simple solution

move your bed out of the room and sleep on the couch in the lounge....lots more room for fish tanks


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

How would you feel if your parents went around asking the minimum requirements to keep you alive?

You and the fish will be a lot happier if you do not squeeze them into a box that is too small for them to thrive...


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## MetalHead06351 (Oct 3, 2007)

A 35 gallon would keep fm's alive, but they might not be happy. They also might be very happy theres no way to tell. They would certainly fit in that tank but if you could go bigger I would. In a 42 inch tank like you mentioned you could fit a little more than a pair, something like dithers and catfish, and i've found that something to chase makes any cichlid happy. They would also help keep everything cleaner making matainence just a little bit easier.


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## lil mama (Nov 24, 2007)

Hubbynz said:


> simple solution
> 
> move your bed out of the room and sleep on the couch in the lounge....lots more room for fish tanks


 :lol: :lol:


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## Joels fish (Nov 17, 2007)

> simple solution
> 
> move your bed out of the room and sleep on the couch in the lounge....lots more room for fish tanks


 Bed !? We don't need no stinking bed! :lol: :lol:

So here's a thought , since you can get a custom tank in whatever dimensions you need then see where you want to put the tank, measure the space and calculate some dimensions accordingly. Height is going to be less important than length and width. If you have a space that could fit a longer /wider tank but not the height then have a tank that is less tall made. The same can be applied to all the dimensions, such as wider but not so long. The key is to maximize the footprint while saving available floorspace in the room.

And if all else fails , get rid of the bed.


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## Joels fish (Nov 17, 2007)

Oh and smething else, I used to breed FMs in a 29g. This was not exactly optimum but it worked while the FMs were still not full grown. Also since a 42" tank only needs 6 more inches to be 4' it might be worth seeing if there's away to come up with the extra space.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

I think a 42"x12" could handle a pair of breeding firemouths with no issues. The salvani are more iffy. Cichlidlover breeds them in 40/50 breeder tanks, which are 36"x18" footprints. So it could work.

I would deffinately avoid either texas cichlid in it though, would need a 75/90 gallon for those unless you just want to bred them for the experience. Both breed at around 3-4" mark, and for that a 42"x12" would be fine.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128 (Mar 22, 2006)

> Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:16 am Post subject:
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...


Actually I have a Sal pair in a 55 gal which is 42x12 a 4 foot tank and I have a pair in a 40 gal breeder which is 36x18. Both of my pairs are doing really good in both the 55 gal and the 40 gal and have no problems as long as I divide them of course. I would definitely not advise going any lower then the 40 gal breeder or the 55 gal for a pair of Salvini. I think a pair could easily go in a 40 gal breeder or a 55 gal for longterm! :thumb:

Also the Texas and Salvini both start to spawn and breed around the 2-3 in mark. Sorry not trying to be a know it all.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

It's not a know it all when you have the experience Cichlidlover ...

but if gage wants a biotope style tank, I don't thing it would be divided. So what size tank would you personally try an undivided pair of salvani in?


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

Toby_H said:


> How would you feel if your parents went around asking the minimum requirements to keep you alive?
> 
> You and the fish will be a lot happier if you do not squeeze them into a box that is too small for them to thrive...


i specifically said that i wont do it if they have no chance to be happy buddy, wanna calm down a little, im not putting them in a tank they will not be happy in, i dont need this from you, i am asking what the minimum tank size is for them to be happy. no need to be so stuck up


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## Big Vine (Feb 26, 2007)

What do you expect, gage? I mean, just look at Toby's sig. line. :lol: 
Still, I'm sure he didn't mean any harm by what he said, and he does make a good point. By the same token, you did mention that you were looking for the minimum tank size they'd _thrive_ in, correct? So there ya' have it. You're both on the same page, no? :wink:

BV


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## xalow (May 10, 2007)

> i only have my bedroom to work with as far as tanks, and i cant really fit 2 full blown 48" tanks more then i already have


You could try getting a stand that would house two tanks with one above the other. The DIY section could be a great help there if you were up to building it yourself.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

Big Vine said:


> What do you expect, gage? I mean, just look at Toby's sig. line. :lol:
> Still, I'm sure he didn't mean any harm by what he said, and he does make a good point. By the same token, you did mention that you were looking for the minimum tank size they'd _thrive_ in, correct? So there ya' have it. You're both on the same page, no? :wink:
> 
> BV


i just dont understand why he felt the need to come off rude instead of just straight up telling me that they wouldnt be happy in the size tanks i listed, instead, he felt the need to be rude about it, i think he needs to grow up a little, could he not have just told me "the Sals will probably not be happy in a tank the size you listed" or something on that lines instead of what he decided to say? i dunno, my 2 cents i suppose.

yes, i did mention if they werent happy i would not do it, which is why i dont understand why he even bothered posting, i would rather not waste my time on non-useful posts like his.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

xalow said:


> > i only have my bedroom to work with as far as tanks, and i cant really fit 2 full blown 48" tanks more then i already have
> 
> 
> You could try getting a stand that would house two tanks with one above the other. The DIY section could be a great help there if you were up to building it yourself.


if im able to find one i will do that forsure, but i dont trust myself building one  :lol:


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

BTW, i dont mind dividing the tank if need be, i would prefer not to, as i would like them to be a happy pair, not miserable, but yes i would prefer not to have to.


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## Joels fish (Nov 17, 2007)

> but i dont trust myself building one


 I've built my last two stands and they've held up fine. They're ugly as sin but they work. My carpentry skills suck. I just made them with 2x6s and used way more wood than needed but they aren't gonna break :thumb: . In fact either of them could probably support my F-150. Better to over do it than not especially when your woodworking talents are like mine.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128 (Mar 22, 2006)

> but if gage wants a biotope style tank, I don't thing it would be divided. So what size tank would you personally try an undivided pair of salvani in?


At the beginning when they aren't paired off yet the Males and Females will treat each other as any other cichlid in the tank but as long as their is a lot of hiding places and room it should be fine in a 55 gal. My advice would be either buy the Males and Females at the same time with a ratio of 4 Females and 2 Males or you can just buy 3 Females and 1 Male. Although it does work better with the first ratio. What you want is a strong bond and for them to choose not to be forced. It just works better that way. As long as you keep them fed with high protiens and weekly water changes they will spawn on a regular basis. Yes, this does mean a TON of fry but it also means less dividing. The 2nd batch they had which I am raising currently in the 29 gal they had a STRONG bond and I only divided them for safety. They didn't want to be seperated of course and the longer I kept the fry with the parents the longer the Female had time to build up for the next batch! I had no problems with fighting between the two when they raised the fry and they raised the fry for a bout a month! When I divided them they decided to dig a pit underneath the divider and the Female swam over to the Male and they started courting!  :lol: Which I then took the divider out and they spawned and now I am raising this new batch. I think a pair would be fine without dividing in a 75 gal but to be on the safe side a 125 gal would be the best option.

I feed them flakes in the morning and then frozen food at night and I alternate foods: Brine Shrimp, Emerald Variety, Bloodworms, Beefheart, Mysis Shrimp, and Plankton (Both mysis shrimp and plankton should be only fed once a week. They both have high protiens and will cause health issues if fed too much.). I also do weekly syphons of about 30-50%. Hope this helps!


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Toby_H said:


> How would you feel if your parents went around asking the minimum requirements to keep you alive?
> 
> You and the fish will be a lot happier if you do not squeeze them into a box that is too small for them to thrive...


Dude, thatâ€™s not in any way rude. Itâ€™s a good point. I didnâ€™t type it in a rude mood nor with rude intensions. So there is no need to attach such a mood to my postâ€¦

It boils down to, you asked us the wrong questionâ€¦ You meant to ask â€œWhat size tank would it take for a pair of Xxxxx to thrive?â€


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

LOL, sorry, i took your post the wrong way, i apologize for that. im used to being able to ask the minimum tank size, but the minimum tank size being the minimum for happiness, not survival, i should have known better then to assume you were being rude, as i have not seen one rude post from you...ever.

i am however surprised i didnt post the happiness thing in my first post, usually i add that, was to excited about potentially getting new tanks i suppose.

again, im sorry about the little freak out thing Toby...we good?


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

CiChLiD LoVeR128 said:


> > but if gage wants a biotope style tank, I don't thing it would be divided. So what size tank would you personally try an undivided pair of salvani in?
> 
> 
> At the beginning when they aren't paired off yet the Males and Females will treat each other as any other cichlid in the tank but as long as their is a lot of hiding places and room it should be fine in a 55 gal. My advice would be either buy the Males and Females at the same time with a ratio of 4 Females and 2 Males or you can just buy 3 Females and 1 Male. Although it does work better with the first ratio. What you want is a strong bond and for them to choose not to be forced. It just works better that way. As long as you keep them fed with high protiens and weekly water changes they will spawn on a regular basis. Yes, this does mean a TON of fry but it also means less dividing. The 2nd batch they had which I am raising currently in the 29 gal they had a STRONG bond and I only divided them for safety. They didn't want to be seperated of course and the longer I kept the fry with the parents the longer the Female had time to build up for the next batch! I had no problems with fighting between the two when they raised the fry and they raised the fry for a bout a month! When I divided them they decided to dig a pit underneath the divider and the Female swam over to the Male and they started courting!  :lol: Which I then took the divider out and they spawned and now I am raising this new batch. I think a pair would be fine without dividing in a 75 gal but to be on the safe side a 125 gal would be the best option.
> ...


man cichlidlover, youve done some crazy research on these guys huh? :lolne thing i will say is I refuse to feed beefheart, a fish is not meant to metabolize animal protein, so i avoid it, and i cant stand flakes! :lol: none of my fish will eat them, including my Salvini.

and that brings me to my next question, being that i already own one male Sal, at about 4"TL, would it be OK to add a female on the divided side and hope they get a strong bond? is this way to much to hope for? or is there a decent chance of it being OK? or am i way to hopeful and under estimating the conspecific aggression level...?

trust me, i know about the high protein level thing, my flowerhorn just recovered from constipation (dam krill...) took about 2 weeks to recover completely...

im pretty partial to the Omega One and NLS food (NLS not o much now that *** found out about that it can cause issues like growth looking things on the mouth)

so as far as feeding, i have NLS Large fish formula, Omega one Kelp pellets, Omega One cichlid pellets, Omega One super pellets, and for frozen i have Mysis (sometimes) krill, bloodworms (sometimes). what can i add frozen wise that they will appreciate a lot (this goes for all my fish)

as far as water changes, i do 50% weekly, sometimes 70 as my tank right now is pretty overstocked, i will do 50 with the sals, good?


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

> man cichlidlover, youve done some crazy research on these guys huh?


Yup, which is why I posed the question for ya *gage* ... even though I've kept them before and researched them, nothing comes down to expierence ... so if I were ever to want to breed them, I'd be going to *cichlidlover* myself.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

the only thing i can think of is...cichlidlover is crazy, he is a crazy person... :lol:

but,* cichlidlover* do you think a pair of Salvini would live in a 55 with no fighting? is it even possible? or will they need bigger, i would prefer not to seperate, which is why i ask.

back to the firemouth idea, i go back to the question, is a 35g big enough for a pair to live happily, i can buy a group of 6 in these if necessary. i cant with the sal because i already own one.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

In the wild firemouths are found in groups much like _Satanoperca_ or _Geophagus_ are. Those two genus do not like being kept in only pairs, but I am not sure about firemouths. I'll let someone with more experience take over for that.

Normally I would think a pair of 6" cichlids would be fine in a 36"x12" tank as a breeding pair though, should be plenty large enough but wider is better. (Personality dependant of course).


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128 (Mar 22, 2006)

> man cichlidlover, youve done some crazy research on these guys huh? :lolne thing i will say is I refuse to feed beefheart, a fish is not meant to metabolize animal protein, so i avoid it, and i cant stand flakes! none of my fish will eat them, including my Salvini.
> 
> and that brings me to my next question, being that i already own one male Sal, at about 4"TL, would it be OK to add a female on the divided side and hope they get a strong bond? is this way to much to hope for? or is there a decent chance of it being OK? or am i way to hopeful and under estimating the conspecific aggression level...?
> 
> ...





> the only thing i can think of is...cichlidlover is crazy, he is a crazy person...
> 
> but, cichlidlover do you think a pair of Salvini would live in a 55 with no fighting? is it even possible? or will they need bigger, i would prefer not to seperate, which is why i ask.


Well not really research but study by keeping them. Of course you don't have to feed Beefheart but Salvini are predators and crave and need fresh meat. It brings a lot of healthy protien and also helps them grow faster. Oh yes 50% weekly water changes would be excellent! As to your 4 in Male question it's rather iffy. I mean it could work if you buy several Females around 2.5-3' in mark which can be hard to find! So really I think starting with juvies would be better!

Thanks for the kind words guys!  But really I am not the only one that can help! I must and I want to give credit to BV and Bernie! They have helped me a ton! :thumb:

Yes, I am a rather CRAZY person! :lol:  I will admit it! Why would someone want to keep 2 pairs of the same fish? :roll: :lol: Well I will tell you why: I LOVE THEM!! Just like Blario1 is to Bolivian Rams! I am VERY partial to them! :thumb:

Yes, I think a 55 gal could keep a pair of Salvini without fighting if you keep them well fed with high protiens and have them spawn on a regular basis but like I said the bond needs to be strong! The more fry they have the more they will be preoccupied with making sure the fry are safe instead of deciding who takes over the parenting and who is a threat! In my 55 gal I just have the pair and nothing else and they REALLY are AWESOME parents! However, it does depend on the personality just like every fish and everyone will experience different things! One thing I did happen to read is over a period of time it is a good idea to give the Female a rest period after a few batches or so! Because if they are well fed with protiens and clean water they will spawn VERY regularly! However, it would be a good idea to be on the safe and better side to go bigger but as juvies I think it will work well and should work as full adults! Just study them and make sure things are going good! :thumb:


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## blairo1 (May 7, 2006)




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## CiChLiD LoVeR128 (Mar 22, 2006)

Oh 2 more things I forgot to mention: whatever you do don't be tempted by Alagefix! It is evil! It is poison in a bottle! It has instant fish killer written all over it! Yes, it says safe for all fish and plants but that is a lie! Don't be tempted of any alage medication for that matter! Stay away from the dark path! Just use alage scrappers. But leave the alage on the back glass for the fry to munch on they will love it! Just thought I would tell you! :lol: :wink:

And finally the last thing when I started I added Bueno's Aires Tetras and Giant Danios. Yes, over time they will be killed off but they will help your pair bond become even stronger and build confidence. It's basically a pat on the back saying good job to the pair because they will work together on defending the fry. It will help trust me! :thumb:


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## Joels fish (Nov 17, 2007)

> In the wild firemouths are found in groups much like Satanoperca or Geophagus are. Those two genus do not like being kept in only pairs, but I am not sure about firemouths. I'll let someone with more experience take over for that.


I've found over the years that pairs work fine , and groups can be a bit of a handfull. Large tanks offer enough space to handle the conspecific aggression of a group , but in Gages case a pair would be absolutely fine in a 35. As always the key is having a pair with a good bond and some good hiding spots just in case of marital strife. As *CiChLiD LoVeR128* said about the Sals , target fish are good for FMs too. Helps with the shyness and gives them something to chase besides eachother.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

CiChLiD LoVeR128 said:


> Oh 2 more things I forgot to mention: whatever you do don't be tempted by Alagefix! It is evil! It is poison in a bottle! It has instant fish killer written all over it! Yes, it says safe for all fish and plants but that is a lie! Don't be tempted of any alage medication for that matter! Stay away from the dark path! Just use alage scrappers. But leave the alage on the back glass for the fry to munch on they will love it! Just thought I would tell you! :lol: :wink:
> 
> And finally the last thing when I started I added Bueno's Aires Tetras and Giant Danios. Yes, over time they will be killed off but they will help your pair bond become even stronger and build confidence. It's basically a pat on the back saying good job to the pair because they will work together on defending the fry. It will help trust me! :thumb:


thanx for the help! btw, i never use chemicals to get rid of Algae, i dont like using chemicals.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

Joels fish said:


> > In the wild firemouths are found in groups much like Satanoperca or Geophagus are. Those two genus do not like being kept in only pairs, but I am not sure about firemouths. I'll let someone with more experience take over for that.
> 
> 
> I've found over the years that pairs work fine , and groups can be a bit of a handfull. Large tanks offer enough space to handle the conspecific aggression of a group , but in Gages case a pair would be absolutely fine in a 35. As always the key is having a pair with a good bond and some good hiding spots just in case of marital strife. As *CiChLiD LoVeR128* said about the Sals , target fish are good for FMs too. Helps with the shyness and gives them something to chase besides eachother.


thanx! i will go with a pair of firemouths to!


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128 (Mar 22, 2006)

> thanx for the help! btw, i never use chemicals to get rid of Algae, i dont like using chemicals.


Yep not a problem! Good luck! :thumb:


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

after all this, i think im going for a pair of Amphilophus robertsoni for the 55, i know 10" is a little big for a 55, but i can bother my parents to upgrade if i notice any unhappiness coming from them, robertsoni are fairly easy to find in my area for a good price.


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