# 125g first time Mbuna



## JBeast99 (May 4, 2014)

Hi all,

This is going to be my first attempt at keeping Mbunas, and I want to make sure I'm getting everything set up correctly. I have a 125 gallon tank, running a Fluval FX6. I've finished the aquascape with some sand, rocks, cichlid stones, and a few plastic plants (rocks bored me too much). Right now I'm finishing cycling the tank with the help of a few tinfoil barbs that I plan on moving here in a few weeks. I won't be adding any Mbunas for another 2-3 weeks, but I wanted to get an opinion on how I should go about stocking my tank. I've mostly kept community tanks, and I admittedly don't have a clue how to go about stocking this. I decided on Mbunas because I wanted to overstock a little bit, and just have a tank with a ton of color. Any suggestions/recommendations would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## kittyk (Sep 20, 2012)

Really like your tank setup   
I started my mbuna tank 1 1/2 years ago. Prior to that just had many years in community fish (still have my 30 g community). I've learned a lot on this site about mbuna's. Made some mistakes along the way  Probably the biggest mistake was overfeeding them , I was feeding 2-3 times day in beginning, because somewhere i read that keeping them well feed reduces aggression........but it also I believe caused my fish to get malawi bloat !! ....also might have been due to feeding them cichlid pellet wasn't the best for them. Lost all but two of them over 6 months....I changed their food and feeding right away after the bloat but I'm thinking they had some permanent internal damage caused by the bloat, the other possibility was internal parasite which I treated for several times. Anyway the two remaining fish along with 2 catfish and 2 bp did fine for over 6 months before I was comfortable ordering more mbuna's on-line. During that time I did have my heater burn out and when i caught it one fish died shortly after....so i blame that one on the stress from heater breakdown. Now i have two heaters....I always was planning a second heater ...oh procrastination !! I'm no expert on all this but recommend something to make some currents....i have two koralia powerheads (really like those) in each back corner.

What type of substrate are you using ? I'm planning on changing mine out this summer. I had ordered some crushed coral, but didn't realize it was so coarse !!...never have liked the look and none of the fish ever dig in it


----------



## hose91 (Mar 5, 2014)

Great start! A 6' tank gives you lots of options. Generally, Mbuna don't "school" but do better if kept in groups/harems, usually 1M to 4-7F depending on the aggressiveness of the individual species. To complicate this, Mbuna are tough to sex until they're more mature (probably true of most fish, I honestly don't know), so to achieve a solid harem, it's recommended you start with a group 1.5 to 2 times larger than what you want to end up with (i.e. 8-10) as juveniles, then as they get older you rehome the troublesome males until you reach a stable group.

In your size tank, 4-5 species groups seems to be generally most successful. Lastly, some basic guidelines when picking out species: 
1) start with some online dealers to see what is generally available (plus they often have pictures). You can then go to the species profiles pages in the Library on this site and read more about their diet, size, demeanor, etc. Generally some pictures are available and sometimes a longer species article is available to read as well.

2) Generally only one group from each genus (?). So, Labidochromis Caerulus (Yellow Labs) OR Labidochromis Chisulmae (lighter blue with blue bars) but not both. Other common genus names include Labeotropheus, Cynotilapia, Pseudotropheus, and Melanochromis. There are some successes with 2 from same genus, but it's best to try to avoid it if you can.

3) Generally you're trying to avoid species that look the same, or have females that look the same in order to tamp down aggression. This can get tricky as lots of Mbuna are Blue barred, or otherwise vertically barred. Good way to start is to pick some species you like, and then get some help from the more experienced Mbuna Keepers (I'm on my first tank, and just stocked it after learning most of these lessons here).

4) Most species have brightly colored males and less so females. Some look totally different, others the same. Remember that in a group, you'll generally have 1 M adult, so in some cases that will be your only brightly colored fish (like the ones in the pictures from the vendors!). Females can be really pretty as well, but take some research to figure out what you'll get with each species.

Sorry for the rambling. Hopefully that helps. There are lots of options and also lots of similar stocking threads on this site. I also found it helpful when researching to just search for the name of the species I was considering, (like, say "perlmutt") and then paging through the google results you get to read the stocking threads and compatibility. You'll see pretty quickly some common themes when you do that! Good luck, ask questions and the experts (not me) will keep you out of trouble (which they did for me!).


----------



## JBeast99 (May 4, 2014)

KittyK - Right now I have play sand as my substrate. It's actually worked well for me in the past, and with the rockwork, my pH has been around 7.6 so I don't think I need to go with the coral. The barbs right now seem to really enjoy the sand, and I don't think it will be an issue with the cichlids, but I suppose we'll see. I've also see some tanks with powerheads, but I wanted to get an idea of how it will work as is. The FX6 seems to be putting out a good deal of current, but I can always add more later.

Hose91 - Thank you so much, that was exactly the kind of advice I think I needed to hear. I've been doing a lot of research, but it's been a bit overwhelming with all the different species. I'm thinking of starting with a group of yellow labs as a start, and I will build my stock off there. I'll definitely be updating this as I work on it some more. Thanks!


----------



## seattle_530 (Mar 6, 2007)

You can get away with putting more than one group from the pseudotropheus family as they seem to throw all sorts in that family. How I select stock is choosing a fish I can't do without. Than ask the forum members about compatablity and do a lot of reasearch using the profile section of this forum. I find it to be a lot of fun and you bone up on fish knowledge. Last but not least nothing beats a well thought out aquarium and inhabitants, it's very worth the effort....also search the threads to find other stocking advise posts and look up those fish. Last piece of advise, try to stay away from the "highly agressive" to "extremely aggressive" fish they always lead to tank nightmares


----------



## hose91 (Mar 5, 2014)

You're welcome, and Seattle_530 was also spot on with his advice on things I forgot. Pseudotropheus is the "holding" bin for species that the Ichthyologists aren't quite sure what to do with yet, so sometimes you can do more than one there. His advice on stocking threads was also more clear than mine. The search function here uses the google engine, so you get results back for the site in a familiar google format. Not to be confused with straight google searches, on which I often used the "images" tab to get an idea of what a fish looked like (beware here, though, not every picture on the page will be accurately labeled, but if 8 out of every 10 match, you probably have a decent idea what it looks like).

It's definitely overwhelming at first, but also imo the best part of setting up a new tank. Some of the "tank nightmare" fish commonly advised against are Ps Crabro (Bumblebee, they're big and apparently mean), Metriaclima lombardoi (Kenyi), blue barred fish, (also mean, lots of other blue barred options out there), Melanochromis Auratus (cool looking fish with gold and black horizontal stripes, but aggressive). There are probably others out there. Of course, not every Kenyi is going to be a night mare fish, but for me, there were enough anecdotes that I chose to avoid it, and the others. Demasoni are a really cool looking blue and black fish, but are a little harder to keep as they're quite hard on themselves. There are LOTS of really good Demasoni threads and active keepers here who can help guide you if that's one you would like.

On the positive side, there are some cool species with blue males and yellow females (Met. Msobo Deep, Ps Saulosi, Met Membe Deep, and Ps Interruptus), and some cool marbled ones (most anything marked OB for Orange Blotch, but usually not just orange), some yellow with brown stripes (Cyno. "Lion", Ps Elongatus Chailosi), lots and lots of blue barred fish, some solid colored fish (white, yellow, blue, rust purple). This is one of the best parts. I'll reiterate that starting with the online vendors is the best way to go, (this sites sponsors has 3 or 4 really good ones with big stocks) because now you know what you can get (and there are tons of profiles on this site that exist in the lakes but aren't commonly for sale), and they helpfully sort them by lake and then by Mbuna or Hap/Peacock! have fun, looking forward to watching you sort it out.

Yellow Labs are a great start, as they are apparently pretty easy going, and a spectacular looking fish. You'll have fun building around those. Last note for now is that blue, yellow, white, and orange and black to a lesser extent, are the colors you're going to find. Not any true reds in Mbuna, nor greens. Still some spectacular combinations. I just started a 75G tank with Met Membe Deeps, Melanochromis Cyaneorhabdos (Maingano), and Labridochromis sp. Perlmutt and couldn't be happier with the combination, although I agonized for a while over some other choices.


----------



## nmcichlid-aholic (Mar 23, 2011)

If I were stocking this tank, I would go with:

1M/4F - Labidochromis caeruleus (yellow labs, which you've already said you want)

1M/4F of one of the following Cynotilapia species:
Cynotilapia sp. "Lion" (Lion's Cove)http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=698
Cynotilapia sp. "Hara" (White-top Hara)http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=2626
Cynotilapia zebroides (Cobue)http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1371

1M/4F - Pseudotropheus elegans (formerly "Acei" - there are 2 common varieties) 
Ngara -http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=835 (I prefer this one, as it's a little more uncommon)
Msuli -http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1460

1M/4F - Labeotropheus trewavasae (Mpanga) - not totally red, but pretty close http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=2295

1M/7-8F Pseudotropheus cyaneorhabdos (Maingano) http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=756

I would be tempted to skip the Cynotilapia species if I could find a nice group of one of the following Metriaclima zebra types (females aren't real colorful, but the males are spectacular):
1M/4F - Metriaclima sp. "Zebra Chilumba" (any location - Luwino, Maison Reef, Mpanga) - http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=810 http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=2289 http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=2290
1M/4F - Metriaclima fainzilberi (any location)http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=2327

Those are just some ideas. A 125G allows you to stock some of the larger mbuna species, so I'd take advantage of it! Good luck!


----------



## seattle_530 (Mar 6, 2007)

+1 on the Labeotropheus trewavasae (Mpanga), but good luck finding them. Also those suggestions are great but usually you can't find adult fish in the groups you want and if you do it's going to cost a lot. I would stick with only 3 species that get 6" or more and try to get some of the smaller variety. Don't let me put fish in your tank however. A 125 can fill up fast when all your fish are 6+ inches.


----------



## JBeast99 (May 4, 2014)

Thanks for all the advice guys, I really appreciate it!

One other question... I'm trying to figure out how to physically stock my tank, and a few thoughts came to mind. Should I add all the 30-40 fish at the same time? I'm concerned about adding all that biomass and the filter not being able to support those additions all at once. On the other hand, it seems like adding one group at a time would potentially mean that all the territory in the tank would be claimed by the earlier fish, and it could lead to aggression when the new groups are added....

Anyone have experience or advice on this?


----------



## hose91 (Mar 5, 2014)

I cycled my tank using about 2-3 ppm ammonia each time I "dosed" it back up on the fishless cycle and then put 37 juvenile fish into a 75G. 4 days in. Biofilter hasn't even blinked. 0 ammonia. 0 nitrite. Nitrates climbing, but controllable with water changes, obviously. The 37 fish also are sorting out territory simultaneously, which keeps everyone on their toes. I was worried, but it's working beautifully so far (knock on wood).


----------



## nmcichlid-aholic (Mar 23, 2011)

hose91 said:


> I cycled my tank using about 2-3 ppm ammonia each time I "dosed" it back up on the fishless cycle and then put 37 juvenile fish into a 75G. 4 days in. Biofilter hasn't even blinked. 0 ammonia. 0 nitrite. Nitrates climbing, but controllable with water changes, obviously. The 37 fish also are sorting out territory simultaneously, which keeps everyone on their toes. I was worried, but it's working beautifully so far (knock on wood).


I think that you should remove the barbs now and continue cycling as mentioned above by Hose91. It's really hard to quantify how robust your biological filter is when you cycle the tank using live fish. You should have a bio-filter working now, so if you remove the barbs and start dosing with ammonia, your cycle should be complete pretty quickly, plus you'll have a definitive number as far as how much ammonia the bio-filter can process. As noted above, once you can measure that your tank can process anywhere from 3-5 ppm efficiently, then you should be fine adding all of the juvies at once. It is best to do them all at once if possible.


----------



## JBeast99 (May 4, 2014)

Barbs will be coming out in the next week or so as I find a new place to house them, and I'll finish cycling from there. Then I'll be gone for about 3 weeks, and when I return, I'll have the money saved up to stock the tank, pending solid water parameters.

Here's what I'm thinking so far, please let me know what you think. I plan on purchasing about 8 unsexed juvies of each:

Pseudotropheus saulosi
Metriclima estherae
Labeotropheus trewavasae (likoma)
Pseudotropheus acei
Cynotalipia "lion" lupingu (or afra)
Labidochromis caeruleus

If it came down to it, and I had to choose one species to drop off this list, it would probably be the pseudotropheus saulosi.

What are your thoughts? Again, I'm new to mbuna and I really want to make sure I do this right. Thanks!


----------



## Ramseydog14 (Dec 31, 2013)

I really like your tank and stock lists. If I had to drop one species from your list,..it would be the Yellow-Labs. Not that they aren't great fish,..but you will get the your Yellow coloring from your female Saulosi,.along with great looking blue/barred males. Especially if you are going to keep Met Estherae (Red Zebra). It would be an either or for me with those and the Yellow-Labs..and since you like Saulosi also,..I would drop the Yellow-Labs. I just bought a group of 5 small Saulosi..and so far they are about the coolest Mbuna I own,..very active and healthy, beautiful colors.


----------



## nmcichlid-aholic (Mar 23, 2011)

I agree that you will most likely want to avoid the combo of Ps. saulosi, L. caeruleus, and M. estherea. The yellow females of the saulosi, as well as the yellow labs and estherea will all be a potential cross breeding issue. Maybe you could swap out the yellow labs for a white fish like Ps. socolofi (snow white socolofi) -http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1786, or white labs - http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1666. It would give you another color that you don't have already, and hopefully decrease some of the hybridization/fighting issues.


----------



## JBeast99 (May 4, 2014)

Ok thanks, that's exactly why I need the help haha. That being the case I'm looking at:

Labeotropheus trewavasae (likoma)
Pseudotropheus acei
Cynotalipia "lion" lupingu (or afra)
Pseudotropheus socolofi

and one of the two:

Labidochromis caeruleus
Metriclima estherae

Or should I just go ahead and stick with those 4 species listed at the top?


----------



## seattle_530 (Mar 6, 2007)

If your hearts set on not going with the saulosi than I would do the yellow labs. I think that would brighten the tank a lot. Nice selection let us know how it turns out by dropping some pics


----------



## hose91 (Mar 5, 2014)

Pretty good list over all. The yellow labs look great with Acei, imo. I'm also a bit partial to the maingano for their blue and black horizontal striping on both sexes from birth (Melanochromis Cyaneorhabdos, I think, their classification has moved around from Ps to Melano and maybe back again?). They've also got a cool shape, like little torpedos in the water. I also really, really like my Lab Perlmutts, more so than I even expected. They are a very light pearl color with brown vertical bars, and the males color "up" to lose the stripes and become solid pearl with the yellow tipped dorsal fin, the females keep the light color and brown stripes all the time. A very cool looking female. I don't think they'd conflict with the Cyno Lion's in your list. They might since I've not kept Cyno Lions, but my sense is the lions are more yellow then pearl white as a base color. Here's a recent reference picture...









The yellow ones are my Membe Deep juvies, the center fish is the dominant male undergoing his color change (he'll look like a Polit when done, solid light blue body with black face back to the gill plate). You can see 6 perlmutts here with their yellow tipped dorsals, and one maingano on the left in focus. For size reference, here's a full tank shot:









Bubbles on the glass from water change, and the bright led washes out the rocks, but you can see the cave in the lower left where the previous picture was taken. The perlmutt seem to like that cave best, the Maingano have sort of set up shop in the middle of the tank, and the Membe's seem to like the rock pile above the cave. There are always fish under the two overhangs on the right as well, and I originally had a big gap to the left of the tallest double stacked rocks and it was suggested I fill it in, so I did, and it was a GREAT move. They're not above the rocks much in this picture, but it was right after PWC and they were still a bit cautious. As I look at the tank now, they're filling the water column and there are 8-10 up above the rocks at any one time.

I did 3 groups of 10 (actually I ordered 14 Membe Deeps, was charged for 12, and I'm pretty certain I've got 13 in the tank!), and 5 1" syno lucipinnis (sold as dwarf petricola), they've been in the 75G tank for 10 days, and although they're still skittish when I move and they can see me, they recover and come back out fairly quickly. It's been a great first tank experience so far, and a nice active, colorful, busy tank.

You've done a nice job spreading your stock list around and I think with the 6' tank you'll be ultimately successful no matter which way you go. You're in for a treat for sure!


----------



## nmcichlid-aholic (Mar 23, 2011)

JBeast99 said:


> Ok thanks, that's exactly why I need the help haha. That being the case I'm looking at:
> 
> Labeotropheus trewavasae (likoma)
> Pseudotropheus acei
> ...


This list looks pretty good - my only real concern would be availability, particularly the L. trewavasae (Likoma). That's a rare one that I don't see on dealers stock lists too often. Will you be ordering online or from a local shop? If you can find them, then great, but if not you should have an alternate idea. If ordering online, you should find a vendor to work with and check their stock list to help finalize your selections. They are usually pretty good at suggesting combos that will work, especially when you have a good idea of what you want already. You can PM me if you want a suggestion on which vendor to try.

The Cyno "lion" Lupingo are awesome - one of my all time favorites. Are you thinking of the regular blue socolofi, or the snow white? And which Ps. "acei" are you doing - the yellow tail or white tail? I would probably get the yellow labs, too - they should get along well with the others and it's hard to beat the pop of yellow they add to the tank. All in all, though, I think it's going to be a great tank!


----------



## nmcichlid-aholic (Mar 23, 2011)

Oh yeah - I would also suggest a small group of Synodontis catfish (like dwarf petricola/lucipinnis, or multipunctatus). They are a great choice to add a bit of diversity, get along very well with African cichlids, and are almost always in constant motion sweeping the floor of the tank for scraps. I've got (or will soon have) at least a trio in each of my tanks and I love watching them - they are very entertaining, and pretty cool looking, too!


----------



## JBeast99 (May 4, 2014)

seattle-530 - Pics will be coming in a few weeks for sure!

hose91 - Wow, I love your tank, super clean! And the rockwork looks great! Way better than what I've got haha, oh well

nmcichlid-aholic - After really looking at some of the vendors on this site, I see what you're talking about with the L Trewavasae likoma. I think I've got a solid foundation of four species, and I'll have to pick my last one based upon availability. I will be ordering online, as my LFS isn't the greatest where I'm at, and I typically see the "Mixed African Cichlid" tank there. For sure I want to do:

P Acei - White Tail
P Socolofi - Albino White
C "Lion" Liupingu
L Laeruleus - Yellow Labs

Then for my last species I'll look into one of the following:

L Trewavasae likoma
L Trewavasae Chilumba
L Fuelleborni Marmalade Cat

Really what I want to do is find something that's more of a Red/Orange, which I know is going to be a bit difficult. I'll basically leave my options open for whatever is available when I place the order. I do plan on some sort of cat, whether it's one of those Synos or maybe Pictus cats. I've heard people have successfully kept them with Mbuna, and I've enjoyed keeping them before. Any experience?

Thanks for all the continued help!


----------



## seattle_530 (Mar 6, 2007)

I saw a online dealer that has Labeotropheus Trewavasae Ochre Chilumba they are nice and red/orange. Also Labeotropheus	fuelleborni "Katale Orange Side"


----------



## promoe (Apr 28, 2009)

IMO the Cynotalipia "lion" lupingu wont color up as you would expect. I think you would be better off doing Hara.


----------



## jimmie (Oct 23, 2002)

Yellow labs more bright yellow, but you can stock your tank up with mbunas, , many different colors and mixed breed cichlids...


----------

