# How Long Before Cloudy Bacterial Bloom?



## GABBA (Jun 3, 2011)

Hi. I have recently set up my 6ft x 1.5ft x 2ft fish tank and am now trying to cycle it. As I live in Australia and cannot buy pure ammonia (the shops do not sell it here - not allowed) I am using the "raw shrimp" method. I have put 5 medium-sized raw shrimp into 3 small stockings and have dropped them into the tank. They have been in there a couple of days and I can see some nasty fungus/bacteria growing on the outside of the stockings. I have also checked the ammonia levels of the tank and they seemed to have gone up (compared to the 0 result before I started - which can be expected).

My question is, how long would I usually have to wait before the cloudy bacterial bloom starts? The reason I would like to know is that when I see the actually cloudy tank I can assume I am on the right track.

Please note that I am using a Aqua One Nautilus 2700 UV canister filter, however I have switched the UV component off. I'm not sure if that makes much of a difference.

Thanks.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

I'm unfamiliar with the 'cloudy bacteria bloom' but I'm also unclear why you'd want that to happen. Bacteria in water has nothing to do with the growth of the proper nitrifying bacteria in your filter and substrate. Just measure your ammonia levels each day and chart them. When they reach peak and start to go down, take out the shrimp and check for nitrite levels along with ammonia levels until both reach zero. You should then see some nitrate in your tank. In order to be sure that your tank is fully cycled I'd then do a water change to reduce the nitrate levels and repeat the process one more time before adding fish.

If you know someone with a healthy tank and an extra filter to spare you can speed up the process by including this filter to 'seed' your tank with the proper bacteria.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

btw, check your stores for something called clear ammonia - it's simply ammonia without the detergents/surficants/perfumes. It's what you want if you can find it.


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

The cloudyness is your tank cycling. It's normal. Like Yael said monitor your parameters, the cloudyness will go away once the bacteria in your filter/substrate has caught up to speed, water readings will tell you the rest. Leave the shrimp til your ammonia readings are 0, some saltwater guys say 2, but i agree with others that say 0. You need the ammonia levels to cycle, 0 is a indicator of success. I cant say how long i've never done this method lol.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

I'm not sure I'd leave the shrimp past when you see an ammonia spike cause with that much decaying shrimp there you might overwhelm any bacteria. I'd take it out once I got my ammonia to ~4ppm and then watch the cycle progress to see how long it takes. From ~4ppm you should see ammonia got to zero in ~24hrs. If it takes longer it just means that your nitrifying bacteria needs to grow some more so repeat the addition of shrimp (or find clear ammonia) and watch the progress again until ammonia and nitrite disappear/convert quickly enough.


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## rgr4475 (Mar 19, 2008)

From this article - http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/cycling.php

_It takes about two weeks for the first group of bacteria (nitrosomonas) to become mature enough to convert all the ammonia in your tank to nitrite. During this period, your ammonia levels will steadily increase, potentially reaching very toxic levels. Following the establishment of nitrosomonas bacteria, it takes the next group of bacteria (nitrospira) about 14 days to mature to a level that they can convert all of your tank's nitrite into nitrate._


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

Just to be clear - you won't see this as a cloudy mass in your tank. It's growth in the filter and substrate. Your tank may get cloudy but that's not the bacteria that you want and it will eventually clear up. The only way to tell the progress of nitrifying bacterial growth is to follow ammonia, nitrite and nitrate with your test kits.


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## rgr4475 (Mar 19, 2008)

Yael said:


> Just to be clear - you won't see this as a cloudy mass in your tank. It's growth in the filter and substrate. Your tank may get cloudy but that's not the bacteria that you want and it will eventually clear up. The only way to tell the progress of nitrifying bacterial growth is to follow ammonia, nitrite and nitrate with your test kits.


Just to add, the cloudy water during cycling is a bacteria bloom, specifically heterotrophic bacteria. Autotrophic bacteria does the nitrifying and doesn't divide fast enough to see. I've had cloudy water in every tank I've ever cycled at some point during the cycle.

And I do agree with your last sentence. Testing water daily or every other day tells you exactly whats going on with the tank.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

rgr4475 said:


> Yael said:
> 
> 
> > Just to be clear - you won't see this as a cloudy mass in your tank. It's growth in the filter and substrate. Your tank may get cloudy but that's not the bacteria that you want and it will eventually clear up. The only way to tell the progress of nitrifying bacterial growth is to follow ammonia, nitrite and nitrate with your test kits.
> ...


  It sounds like you agree with everything I said.

That said, neither of my recent tanks showed a cloudy bacterial phase, but I started with enough 'live' stuff (rocks or plants which were live from the start) that my tanks were never sterile enough to support a mass bloom of opportunistic bacteria.


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

Think he was correcting you bro, and just agreeing with your last part haha 

The raw fish method has been used by saltwater guys for ions, as it works. You just dont see it often in the freshwater hobby. Chances are he's using brand new filters, maybe not, but chances are most people who go through the proper cycling stages tend to get a cloudy water look for a tiny bit. Lets break down the terminology rgr4475 mentioned here.

Heterotrophic is usually used in reference to a type of bacteria and its food source.
A heterotroph is an organism that requires organic substrates to get its carbon for growth and development.
Heterotrophic bacteria is often seen during the first week of a new aquarium tank being set up as an excess of organic material causes the water to turn milky white briefly. (New Tank Syndrome).
This type of bacteria is often sold in liquid form and is used to consume the waste products of fish, uneaten food and plant debris (Mulm).
It is naturally in soil and so Walstad type tanks have these.
============================================================================

Autotrophic is an organism that produces complex organic compounds from simple molecules and an external source of energy, such as light or chemical reactions of inorganic compounds.
Typically used in context with aerobic bacteria and nitrifying bacteria. that is they take oxygen and a form of nitrogen (ammonia or nitrite) and convert it into another form like nitrate.
===========================================================================

New Tank Syndrome is the term given to a new tank when it goes through several notable stages.
Lots of beads of oxygen or nitrogen appear on the sides of the tank and ornaments. This is a natural feature of new water on initial contact with new objects and soon passes within 24 hours.
The tank water may turn a cloudy white colour. This is a bacteria bloom caused by heterotrophic bacteria feeding off the organic matter in the tank and a sign that the initial cycling process is working well. It passes naturally within 3-4 days. A beginner often thinks something is wrong and performs water changes which may expose the fish to ammonia and nitrite poisoning as it delays the cycling time of the tank.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

From everything I've read, the nitrifying bacteria is substrate bound as a biofilm and doesn't exist as a 'free swimming' water born phase. That's one reason that people are concerned with the 'quick start' products (in liquid). A cloudy tank is not a prerequisite for a proper cycle - it's just a harmless phase that happens when the complex of bacteria isn't present and one species opportunistically overwhelms the tank. It over grows itself and dies off which then leaves room for slower growing and more varied species begin to grow to form a more natural biota.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

btw, I'm not a 'mate', I'm a woman with a PhD in Molecular biology and a BA in animal behavior and ecology.


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

Yael said:


> From everything I've read, the nitrifying bacteria is substrate bound as a biofilm and doesn't exist as a 'free swimming' water born phase. That's one reason that people are concerned with the 'quick start' products (in liquid). A cloudy tank is not a prerequisite for a proper cycle - it's just a harmless phase that happens when the complex of bacteria isn't present and one species opportunistically overwhelms the tank. It over grows itself and dies off which then leaves room for slower growing and more varied species begin to grow to form a more natural biota.


Maam, 

It's in both. It's more concentrated in a bio-film manner on surfaces, but it does also exist in water. It's how it's delivered into the filters to develop on surfaces. People are into liquid starts cause they dont want to do a fish cycle, and liquid methods are a popular way to do a fishless cycle, but that way has many fans against it, as there is for it. As he cant buy pure ammonia in australia he just went another time tested method.

A cloudy tank is a good indicator the cycle has started as you can see it visually. Heterotroph needs organic carbon to grow, the raw shrimp in this case. The bloom is the Heterotroph growing as it consumes the organic matter, but when that depletes, and goes without its food source, yes it dies off. Then starts the autotroph stage, and unlike Heterotroph, autotrophs can synthesis their own food.

Heterotroph will convert the ammonia into nitrites, it's own by-product, but not as well as autotrophs which create there food through chemosytnesis

Nitrosomonas marina (converts ammonia to nitrite) and Nitrospira (converts nitrite to nitrate)


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

I was told in a pm that one can get clear ammonia in speciality stores in Australia so it does exist. The problem, imo, with shrimp or other forms of rotting fish is that it puts a lot of other stuff besides ammonia into your tank water - various rotting chemicals like putracine as well as a fair amount of histamine. Shrimp are notorious for producing pseudo allergies in people but in reality, the less-then-fresh shrimp releases lots of histamine which creates the reaction. I just think it's better to avoid all that in your tank if you can get ammonia.

My only point was that the cloudy bloom is not a prerequisite for a healthy cycle and isn't a good indicator for whether you tank is converting ammonia/nitrites. Get a test kit so you know what you're doing and avoid all the guess work.


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

I was making some corrections to the last post, but apparently its too late lol. But one of the points i wanted to make was
A lot of those liquid starters are filled with heterotrophic bacteria.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

I used one of them on one of my recent tanks - it might have helped but it certainly wasn't 'instant' as claimed. It caused me much grief and lots of extra water changes until I added a filter from a friend's tank to properly seed. Maybe it could have shortened the cycle but those products have no business saying that you can add fish to your tank risk free within 24 hrs.


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

Yeah those products are ****. I've read people that rave about them, but with as many people that dont have good experiences with them is a good indicator for me it's hit or miss, and not worth trying. It's why i'm big on just using existing sponges or pillow stuffing in my filters for seeding in new filters, and water taking out during water changes from established tanks to put in new tanks. They wernt even sure what actual sub-bacteria's were precisely the ones that were involved til Dr. Tim w/e his name is did some big study.


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## rgr4475 (Mar 19, 2008)

Yael said:


> rgr4475 said:
> 
> 
> > Yael said:
> ...


I did agree, just adding some technical jargon.


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

CrypticLifeStyle said:


> The cloudyness is your tank cycling. It's normal. Like Yael said monitor your parameters, the cloudyness will go away once the bacteria in your filter/substrate has caught up to speed, water readings will tell you the rest. Leave the shrimp til your ammonia readings are 0, some saltwater guys say 2, but i agree with others that say 0. You need the ammonia levels to cycle, 0 is a indicator of success. I cant say how long i've never done this method lol.


Just going to stick with my original post here^^ :thumb:

With the addition of, you should just remove the shrimp.  
Apparently it can cause Saprolegnia http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com ... #rawshrimp opcorn:


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

It's really worth trying to find the clear ammonia. It's just much easier, cleaner and now safer.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

rgr4475 said:


> Just to be clear - you won't see this as a cloudy mass in your tank. It's growth in the filter and substrate. Your tank may get cloudy but that's not the bacteria that you want and it will eventually clear up. The only way to tell the progress of nitrifying bacterial growth is to follow ammonia, nitrite and nitrate with your test kits.
> 
> Just to add, the cloudy water during cycling is a bacteria bloom, specifically heterotrophic bacteria. Autotrophic bacteria does the nitrifying and doesn't divide fast enough to see. I've had cloudy water in every tank I've ever cycled at some point during the cycle.
> 
> ...


 8) ha, I thought so. I try to avoid the technical jargon (even if it would make me sound more authoritative sometimes) because I've found that for many folks it makes their eyes cross - at least when I try to do it, you did great.


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

Still confused where i was wrong lol


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

I think the error is in the assumption that the bacterial bloom is somehow related to the growth of the nitrifying bacteria when in fact it's only at best coincidental. The bacterial bloom is fast growing bacteria that over populates in an opportunistic way and then dies out because it's starved itself. The bacteria you want is much slower growing - some might be in water, but most is in the biofilm growing in the filter and on substrate so it's slowing growing away underneath all that gunk you can see. Equating the bloom to the growth of the bacteria you want is like equating a weed take over in a tilled garden to the success of the crop seeds you've planted.

Basically any time you wipe out all the species in a given environment (cleaning and sterilizing the tank) what you get first is one or two colonizing weed species - they live on anything and grow fast but deplete what they need to grow and tend to be self-limiting. What follows is colonization by a more stable slow growing mixed population of species with enough diversity to balance each other and not over populate to their own detriment.


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## GABBA (Jun 3, 2011)

I would be more than happy to use pure ammonia if you or anyone else could advise me where to get it from. Of course it's available in "speciality" stores and is available to those that require it for their work. In the same way a scents who works in a lab could probably get their hands on some radium or something.

What the supermarkets do sell here is cloudy ammonia, which has soap, but from what I have read I shouldn't use it.

My only options are raw shrimp or fish-in method.

Anyway, to update I have had five medium sized shrimp in the tank for about 5 days so far and the tank is yet to go cloudy.......???? I tested the ammonia yesterday and it read between 0.25 and 0.50. Everything ok???


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

You're shooting for a reading of 3 - 4 ppm of ammonia to get a good test for conversion and to promote growth. See my pm about what I learned about cloudy ammonia. Take a look at the label to double check please.


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

Can't you get Dr Tim's Ammonium Chloride? He is a sponsor here and sells it specifically for cycling tanks. Is there some kind of import restrictions for Australia?


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

Yael said:


> I think the error is in the assumption that the bacterial bloom is somehow related to the growth of the nitrifying bacteria when in fact it's only at best coincidental. The bacterial bloom is fast growing bacteria that over populates in an opportunistic way and then dies out because it's starved itself. The bacteria you want is much slower growing - some might be in water, but most is in the biofilm growing in the filter and on substrate so it's slowing growing away underneath all that gunk you can see. Equating the bloom to the growth of the bacteria you want is like equating a weed take over in a tilled garden to the success of the crop seeds you've planted.
> 
> Basically any time you wipe out all the species in a given environment (cleaning and sterilizing the tank) what you get first is one or two colonizing weed species - they live on anything and grow fast but deplete what they need to grow and tend to be self-limiting. What follows is colonization by a more stable slow growing mixed population of species with enough diversity to balance each other and not over populate to their own detriment.


Isn't that what I said in so many words? He had the shrimp in for less then a week, he got a bloom which is typical for most people when freshly cycling a tank, especially those going a organic matter method. I just don't see it as any other bloom for such a small time frame. Only so many blooms happen in fish tanks.

Well Gabe you can do the fish food way instead of raw shrimp. Maybe some snails with it. Anyone you know around you with a established tank? Maybe the person who pm'd yael about ammonia in Australia can post or pm you with info since your the op with the question lol.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

He hasn't had a bloom yet and his ammonia levels are still low - too low to really promote much nitrifying bacterial growth. He needs to find a way to get his ammonia a bit higher. I also pm'd him with the info that I was sent so he has it and can decide how he wants to proceed.

I'm not sure how to be more clear - while it may be normal to see a bacterial bloom, it's neither necessary or a particularly good indicator of your cycle progression. That's because that bloom (mostly) isn't made up of the right bacteria. It's only coincidental to what you're hoping to see. The only way to know where you are in the cycle progression is to do the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate measurments on a regular basis. The numbers tell you where you are, what to do and what to expect once you understand where and how your nitrifying bacteria grows.


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

Yael said:


> He hasn't had a bloom yet and his ammonia levels are still low - too low to really promote much nitrifying bacterial growth. He needs to find a way to get his ammonia a bit higher. I also pm'd him with the info that I was sent so he has it and can decide how he wants to proceed.
> 
> I'm not sure how to be more clear - while it may be normal to see a bacterial bloom, it's neither necessary or a particularly good indicator of your cycle progression. That's because that bloom (mostly) isn't made up of the right bacteria. It's only coincidental to what you're hoping to see. The only way to know where you are in the cycle progression is to do the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate measurments on a regular basis. The numbers tell you where you are, what to do and what to expect once you understand where and how your nitrifying bacteria grows.


I know he hasn't had a bloom yet as stated in the op's first post, but you originally questioned what is it, and why he's waiting for it. I'm treating the question as a normal cycle bloom, your treating it as not normal or something other. Even though I said keep checking your parameters on my first response, me saying a bloom is normal somehow got translated into being a good indicator of cycle progression which I didn't specifically state, though it could be in par with what the water parameters are showing which again I said on the first response. Only thing I do change on is on using raw shrimp. I learned more on its drawbacks, I wouldn't OK it in the future. 
Good luck Gabba I'm withdrawing from this thread before it goes into page 3 haha.


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

...dbl posted


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

What I've been trying to say is that the OP's question was the wrong one for what he wants to accomplish. It's the wrong question because the cloudy bloom isn't indicative of how his cycle is progressing. It's only (sometimes) coincidental when it happens and there's no need for it to happen at all.


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## GABBA (Jun 3, 2011)

I quite possibly ask the wrong question, I just assumed that a bacterial bloom was a part of cycling a tank.

Anyway, it has been a week with 5 shrimp inside the tank and I just did a test for ammonia - it looks as though its only reading 0.25! Why isnt it increasing? Could it be that there are not enough shrimp(s) in there....? The tank measures 6 x 1.5 x 2. The filter had been used previously BUT it was stopped for a while, so im guessing the bacteria would have died. I didnt test for nitrites as I assume it is too early.......


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

Test for nitrates, perhaps your old filter wasn't as dead as you thought. I don't know if you got my pm about the ammonia you have available but if you're not seeing nitrates, it might be worth giving the alternative a try. Be sure and test your tap water as a comparison to your tank water.


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## GABBA (Jun 3, 2011)

Thanks. I will read the PM tonight when I get home from work. I will also test the nitrites tonight and see how they read. If they are 0 I may have to try something else.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

You're looking for a nitrATe reading - if your tank is processing ammonia then it's also possible that the nitrITes have already been converted to nitrATes.
Best of luck!


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## GABBA (Jun 3, 2011)

Ok, so the prawns/shrimp have been in my tank for just over a week now and I did some tests on the water earlier tonight. This is what the readings looked like to me (used the API liquid testing kit):
Ammonia: 0.25
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5ppm - 10ppm

So what does this mean?


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

Test your tap water for nitrate. If the nitrate is not coming from your tap then your tank is processing some ammonia and nitrite. It won't be cycled until ammonia and nitrite both read 0.


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## sumthinfishy (Jan 26, 2013)

i'm not sure, but i think i now have a phd after reading this discussion. lol


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## Randy_G (Nov 3, 2003)

Okay I have spent a little while with my friend google and the other fount of all knowledge on the internet wikipedia.  Here's what I've found. Most makers of cloudy ammonia will only tell you that it has ammonia, water and some other ingredient in it. However I have found a manufacturer that does list something other than a cryptic "other ingredient" in it's MSDS. ( link is for demonstration purposes only and not in anyway being used to promote the following product cloudy ammonia MSDS ) This shows the usual "other ingredient", but also shows "EDTA, tetrasodium salt".

From what I can find out, this is merely a water softener (it dissolves limescale). It and the "other ingredient" amount to a whopping <1% of what's in the bottle. That means if you dose the aquarium to 2ppm ammonia, you are putting in 0.4 ppm of a water softener, and a further 0.4 ppm of "other ingredient". In real terms what is being added is a negligible amount of a water softener (which means you might need to add a tiny amount of sodium bicarb to offset it, and a tiny amount of what is most likely a surfactant (other brands of cloudy ammonia mention surfactant in their MSDS)(breaks the surface tension of water). One of the most common surfactants are the sulphates (or sulfates), and is most likely in cloudy ammonia. All these do is reduce the surface tension of the water, and create foam to help remove dirt etc. In the concentrations that we are talking about in cloudy ammonia, it would not really be cause for any alarm or worry. A large water change after cycling would reduce the amount of any surfactant in the water to basically 0. A large water change is something we do anyway. From what I have read, in my unedumacated, and unprofessional opinion (which is only edumacated by internet  ) cloudy ammonia is a reasonable alternative to clear ammonia. Obviously if clear ammonia is available, the I would prefer to use that, but in it's absence I would use cloudy ammonia. As I intend to do with my own aquarium, and as others have done with theirs.

Needless to say, if I am wrong please let me know where I got my facts wrong.


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