# BRC=Bolivian Rams Club



## Compressed

With so many posts about the Bolivian Rams lately, I thought it would be fun to see how members there are in this club  Just check in here if you now own them and tell us about yours, how many, setup, spawning..etc.

I got my first pair about a year ago. The LFS guy sold me a pair..but he did tell me that the female was a trade in and he didn't know how old she was. She was full size and look ok..so I bought her..along with a male from younger stock. They did try to spawn.. but with me making major changes in my stock and tanks..they never had the chance because they were moved a few times. Well, after keeping her for a year..she did show signs of being old and died about 2 months ago. Last week I ran on to some very nice size juvies. I bought 4 and put them into my 75g with my lone male. They all seem happy as a lark and I hope to maybe endup with two pair. Great little fish indeed!!


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## cody6766

I have 5 in my South American tank

I got them 4 days ago and they're definately feeling their oats. They've claimed their places in the tank and even chase off the much larger jurupari in there with them. They're awesome little fish.


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## tmack

I've had 3 for about 2 weeks now, in a 20 gallon at work with a couple of neons & white clouds. I've gotten some help from Blairo and Dutch Dude in sexing 2 of them. Still trying to get a decent picture of #3 for them to look at. Then I'll take one home to another tank and leave the remaining 2 do their thing. They are very interesting little fish and so much fun to watch their behavior. They aren't fully adult yet - about 2 inches, but they're getting plumper with more color every day. It's been many years since I've kept and bred any cichlids, and these have been a great reintroduction to cichlids. Nice to have some fish with their own unique personalities again! I'm hooked on the Bolivians now!


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## Compressed

Here's a pic of three of mine>


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## Katie Rose

Here is my hot Bolivian Mama! I pulled a large spawn ages ago, I'm down to my last 50 or so out of 250+ fishies. I have had so many tanks with Bolivians I'm not even going to mention them!










Cathy
PS> You think Mama is hot, you ought to see Papa. (Just can't get a good pic right now!)


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## spqrzilla

Don't have any, but you are making me want some.


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## tmack

Nice fish & tank Compressed, and a very pretty fish Katie Rose! :thumb:


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## Compressed

Nice "Hot Mama" Cathy :lol: With that many Bolivian's ...you get first prize for how many someone owns!

spqrzilla....if ya have a Petsmart near ya..I'd check with them.

Thanks tmack!


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## spqrzilla

Haven't seen any Bolivians in the local Petsmart to date.


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## Compressed

spqrzilla...I believe most of the Petsmarts have just gotten them in ..in the last couple of weeks.


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## tmack

Compressed said:


> spqrzilla...I believe most of the Petsmarts have just gotten them in ..in the last couple of weeks.


Yep - that's where I got mine 2 weeks ago.


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## ChrisWalker

Hi, thought I'd add to this. Hard to get rams to stay stillso apologies for the blurring. Nice fish everyone!

My male and female pair, still as of yet to breed in a 28 UK gallon (33 US).


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## Dutch Dude

Hahaha,...well,...a good initiative and especially becouse there are so many questions lately abouth the Bolivian ram,...Microgeophagus Altispinosa.

I have had tanks in the past when I was a boy. After years without fish I decided to start a small 25 gallon tank. That tank was converted into a paludarium (half water and half land and a combination between aquarium and terrarium). After abouth 6 years I switched back to a fish tank. I reed a lot of books and was planing on some small tetras corydoras. I ran into some "Ram" like fish and at first site they had my attention. They came and greet me in the shop and I was amazed by their behavior. Such a shame they were so boring in collors. The LFS owner assured me that I would love the fish and they would grow out to gorgeous peaceful fish. That was 7 years ago and still 2 of the 7 I bought then are still alive! I don't think they will get much older tough. I originally bought 8 but one died in the first week. I kept the 7 Bolivians in a 35 gallon densely planted tank for more than 5 years together with some Otocinclus and Gouramis. Abouth 2 years ago I set-up a new tank and the Bolivians switched over to the 90 gallon (same tank as in profile). Abouth an half a year ago I ran into some youngsters and instantly I bought 8 of them. They are still in my tank but unfortunately they have all deformity's. I bought some Asian farm breed fish. Soon they will get a new home (tank in a resthome) and they provided me with abouth 80 youngsters that are good quality and not raised in medications and hormones. I bet they will live longer than the Asian farm fish! I'm planning 2 new tanks and one of them will be a 45 gallon and I will add abouth 7 from my best selected youngsters in there together with some Loricara and Oto's.

To all a warning,......be careful with the Asian farm fish,...mostly bad quality and if you can get a hold on fish from a local breeder that would be a much better choice!


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## justflow1983

I picked mine up 2 weeks ago when i decided to get back into tropical fish after "inheriting" a tank from some roommates. Definitely the most fun fish i can remember having, I'm setting up a larger tank soon so that I can shoal them. Great fish.


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## tmack

Dutch Dude - tell us about the deformities. I know some of us got ours recently at a chain LFS called Petsmart, and they may very well be Asian farm fish. As you may remember, mine are still young - about 2 inches ( 5cm), and I don't see any sign of deformities yet. What do we need to look out for?


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## Dutch Dude

Mostly the deformities are in the spine. The result is a bend of the body sideways but mostly a round back or high bodied fish. Some of mine do stay to small and my old male is still the bigest Bolivian in the tank. My dominant young male has a strange shape of the head and has a nose like he hit the glass to hard :lol: See for you're self.......warning,...its a bad pic!


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## Dutch Dude

Oooh,.....and the reason for the deformities is that the Asian farm fish swim in a lot of medications to reduce illness and lost of fish and the fish will get a lot of hormones to grow faster and mature faster (more color) so they can be sold quicker. In a natural breed it will last at least 4 to 5 months before the fish can be sold to a lfs.

Ruurd


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## mbunareunion

Well my pair are great, male has some great filaments, female has good color. They live with a pair of threadfin rainbows, 4 neons, 3 cory sterbai, and 4 zebra danios. Very peaceful planted 20 g in my living room. The rams and corys are on the bottom, the neons in the middle, and threadfins/danios are everywhere.


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## Beats

Hello, All!! 

I got 2 Bolivian Rams in mid February, and found out, with help from Blairo and otheres, that they were male and female  , 
but the female had a deformity.  (they came from a Singapore farm)

This is the female. There is something wrong with her lips and head shape.

















The LFS, where I bought her, told me that they will exchange her, when they get new rams, but, I've decided to keep her, 
since I'm pretty sure she's not going to have a future, if I return her to the LFS. 
I've decided to name her "Lips"   

AND..., day before yesterday, I got 4 more, 3 femals and 1 male from a different LFS    
(they are still in quarantine, and they also seem to be from Sinapore). 
I hope I got the male and females correct.... :roll: :roll: :roll: 
At first, I was only going to get 3 females, one to be a pair with my male, and the other two to keep Lips company, 
...but... fell in love with another Bolivian Ram male... 

I will probably split them into 2 or 3 tanks (this will depend on how many pairs I get -- 1 or 2-- 
and, on how the other females, without a male, will feel about sharing a tank with a pair/pairs).

Oh....*Bolivian Rams are addictive*.... :roll:    :roll:


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## ted29

I'll just say, what fabulous fish. Not as handsome as the blues BUT what characters.


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## demonsoni

I have 2,


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## Dutch Dude

Beats,.....I gues I'll have to call my male from the pic above,...Nose! He and (hot)Lips would make a perfect couple :lol: But,...thats sad for Bow, Band, Small and Back. :lol: Eeeeeh,....I didn't have my medication today :wink: Lips has indeed some deformity on the head and lips and that's probably a common deformity just like the high bodied fish and the once with a bend in the spine.

Ckohler,.....as far I can see yours are still youngsters and I hope you don't be mad abouth what I'm going to say right now but they are a bit skinny. How often do you feed them and what kind of foods? Maybe we can help you out with some food advice.


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## demonsoni

that was actually the day i got them...they are doing well and have more color now. At first i thought you were gonna say they had defects. NLS btw no advice needed.


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## Dutch Dude

hahaha,...no not every Bolivian has deformities :lol: OK,...NLS is a good choice and I won't give an advice :wink:


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## Katie Rose

Ahw, I like Lips! Reminds me of a song about butts

"I like big _lips_ and I can not lie, you other brother's can't deny, when a girl walks in with an itty bitty waist and round thing in your face you get..."

Sorry, I better get back to work...

Cathy


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## tmack

Katie Rose said:


> Ahw, I like Lips! Reminds me of a song about butts
> 
> "I like big _lips_ and I can not lie, you other brother's can't deny, when a girl walks in with an itty bitty waist and round thing in your face you get..."
> 
> Sorry, I better get back to work...
> 
> Cathy


Good thing you went back to work! Hahahahaha!!!


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## Dutch Dude

Whaaaaahahaha,...every thing alright Cathy? Did you skip the medicines today? :lol:


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## blairo1

:lol: :lol: Hey everybody!!!!

I have big smile on my face today, more and more threads popping up about our wonderful little friends, the Bolivian Ram. A fish that I feel is so greatly underrated, it's quite sad really. Many seem to miss the subtle but actually quite intense colouration, the patterning and details, as well as the delightful and comical characters these fish posess.

They interact with their owner, are personable and very pleasing to keep.

I love all of my fish but none are quite as precious to me as my Bolivian Rams. Since I really got into fishkeeping and particularly these fish, I really hoped and kept pressing to raise interest, to use the knowledge of the others on this site, to raise awareness and to share experiences and information. I hope that some of this interest and "rising" of BRO (Bolivian Ram Owners lol) has been due to our efforts. Cathy and Ruurd in particular have been my mine of knowledge and it is something I will never forget. Without their experience and willing to share this, I wouldn't be half the obsessive BRO as I am today :lol:.

Anyway I hope more people start to appreciate the Bolivian Ram again, hopefully something can be done to improve the quality of the strain. If you get a good, healthy pair, breed them and help spread the good genes!! With all these poor quality strains around it's no wonder people walk right on by them..... So do your bit and I hope we can see a rise in Bolivian Ram Owners in the future!


















Some days he gets REALLY yellow....









http://s100.photobucket.com/albums/m15/ ... rAggro.flv


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## Katie Rose

Gorgeous fish and pictures as usual Blair!


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## tmack

Yes - great pics and beautiful fish, as usual. I guess we can henceforth call you BRO Blairo! Thanks again to you, and to BRO Dutch Dude, and all the other BROs that have helped me better understand these awesome little fish. :thumb:


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## Beats

Yes! As always..., GREAT photos and BEAUTIFUL fish !! :thumb: 
And, I loved the video!! :thumb: 
Now, most probably..., everyone in The Bolivian Rams Club will be in front of their tanks, 
playing with their Rams!!  8) 

Ruurd..., I really like the idea of getting Nose and Lips, together !! :lol:

Cathy..., I hope you got your work done... :lol:

And, I'd like to also thank all the Masters of Bolivan Rams for sharing their knowldege and experice, too!!!  :thumb:


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## ted29

Over here in Ireland I just despair at the health of the Bolivian rams in the lfs. They all have sunken bellies. I asked a number of pet shop owners what they fed them and they all said flake food. I tried to tell them they need high protein pellet, frozen or wafer foods. And the odd algae wafer but they don't care.


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## Beaglegirl

I just got six BABY bolivians the end of January. Thanks to the folks on this board, they are now healthy and thriving. I didn't realize when I purchased them they were TOO TINY to sell. I got a good deal on them, but looking back the fish store was probably trying to cover their butts if some died. (I got all six for just under 20 dollars if I remember correctly.
Now, my biggest is about 1 inch! 
I'm addicted. I love these fish! Count me part of the Bolivian Rams Club


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## straitjacketstar

Some official BRC t-shirts need to be printed or something!

Gotta love these guys. Beautiful pics and fish everyone! Even the funky ones!  
I've got a funky little female who's head looks like it kinda tried to curl under itself and her gillplates are a bit short. The whole thing gives her a really big-eyed look, but she's hard to get pics of.
I have 5 ATM, one definite male, 4 definite females and one that wouldn't be so confusing if it didn't look like a "she" (down to the papilla) but act like a "he". :roll: 
In no particular order:


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## birdman1099

wow !!! I'm inspired !!!

Would you suggest keeping these in a 125 with some Goe. Altifrons, or in a species only 29 gallon??

I feel I need to get some


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## blairo1

*straitjacketstar*
:lol: I think you're trying to trick us, pic 2 and 3 are of the same female fish by my eye. Nice swollen vent and a little looker, got yourself a nice one there...

That last pic is a really healthy Bolivian, I'm not a fan of the two spots but that's one of the healthiest I've seen, nothing wrong with that fish!!

Thanks for sharing.

I'm trying desperately to get a decent shot of the male but he's forever at the back of the tank nowadays, tending to their never-ending stream of fry :roll:. He's a lot bigger than he was, all this mating every week has got his hormones through the roof, it's like watching the incredible hulk transform :? -> :x ->  -> :!: -> 8)

*birdman1099*
It can work, with the Geophagus, but you do need plenty of space and it's very hit and miss - one of my altifrons will swim with and ignore the Bolivians, the other one terrorizes them, or did, now he only shoo's them off if they go too close. How many geo's already in the 125.

Personally I think they will be "lost" in a 125, you'll have much more enjoyment watching them in a smaller tank, it sounds odd. The larger the tank I've put them in, the less they've responded to me on an interactive level, however in the smaller tanks they still rush the front, peck at the glass and generally swim all over each other trying to greet you (until the breeding starts).

So I'd tell you to do a heavily planted 29 with well broken territories and line of site, as well as a few bits of driftwood - make caves, nooks etc in which they back into and defend without being open - without their own little hiding holes they become very stressed and reclusive, whereas with adequate cover, they never hide :roll:.

You want 1 male and 3 females IMO, get them when they're a bit younger and allow them to mature together, establishing their own heirachy, once the male has chosen his mate you will generally find that the other females keep out of the way (the learn to pretty quick). Occassionally I will find that the male has rejected a female, or reallly dislikes a particular one and if that happens I remove them to the community tank (with my altifrons.) Otherwise they can be harrassed and become ill, which nobody wants.

Once the male has found his favourite mate (he will find a favourite) then you may consider removing the other two females, the only reason I keep them is to take some stress off the main female - when she's done breeding I'll remove her and allow the male to mate with another female, otherwise he harrasses her to spawn and she just doesn't have the energy...

:thumb:

Blair.


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## straitjacketstar

Blair, you caught that aye! :lol: 
Keen eye. :wink: 
I can't be picky of the Bolivians around here. Seem that all I can find are "males" (hormoned shipments I assume) or deformed fish.
I'm still trying to figure out the problem with my "shemale". Hard to get pics of since "she's" usually off hiding. So is the gimpy one. I love my boy. He's pretty but sure is taking his sweet time courting the ladies.
One more!









Love the hulk analogy BTW.










birdman, I'd also recommend the smaller tank. A 29 would be perfect. I also notice that in larger tanks they tend to be less "into eachother". Doesn't hurt, they just seem to be more into what everyone else is doing. When I had mine in a 50 each seemed more interested in property than eachother.


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## blairo1

:lol: Well I do have a BRC rep to uphold y'know . Haha. Otherwise I'll get the boot and end up making the coffee for the ABRCC (Annual Bolivian Ram Club Convention) and I don't know about you, but I don't want to get stuck with that!!!

That last pic looks like a male, is that "your boy" lol, very nice fish. Well all of your fish are looking nice and healthy. Got any full tank shots?

Blair.

-EDIT-

Oh not Bolivian Rams, but some of my fish none-the-less. I don't get much response elsewhere, Ruurd I know you'll want to see this  and I consider you people my friends. So let's see lol.

Taeniatus Dehane Fry, now 2 months old:









This is going to be their grow out tank in about 4 days time (ie when I get around to moving them):









Just a short video, Ruurd said I hypnotise my fish, I'm starting to believe him :lol:, what do you all think!? 
http://s100.photobucket.com/albums/m15/ ... NOFRYD.flv

Anyway sorry for going off track their a little, I hope I can be forgiven!


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## pk333

blairo 1

That's your grow out tank!!!

I don't know what prices for plants are where your from, but that's like AUS$200 to AUS$300 worth of plants in there.

There's gotta be a better way to do this, other than going through a LFS for everything. I don't trust buying other peoples unwanted stuff off of ebay.

Peter


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## Beats

straitjacketstar! 
Nice looking rams!!  and the boy is gorgeous!! :thumb:

Blair...
Your fish and your tanks always look soooooo GOOD!! 
...and.............that's just a grow out tank................ 

Oh! and I agree with Ruurd!
You hypnotise you fish!! :lol:


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## blairo1

:lol: Thanks!

*pk333*
Yeah I set this tank up purely for my Taeniatus fry to grow up in, I guess I'm crazy. I think it's more that I'm always looking for an excuse to set up another tank .

You can find info and pics regarding:
Full plant list, 
The fertilizers I use, 
CO2 set-up, 
Substrate, 
Stocking
etc,

in this thread - http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... highlight=

I've also kept it fairly well updated so you can see how the tank has grown.....

Well, here's the tank when I set it up 1 month (and a few days) ago:









And obviously now:









In the thread I show you 5 days growth, 10 days growth etc. I'd appreciate if you checked it out and commented if you haven't already!!

Re the cost, lol you see I have a very good relationship with the LFS I get them from - the manager is a woman who's really into me  and as much as my girlfriend hates it, she's ok with me using my sweet-talking to get us good ol' discounts :lol:!!

Haha the other assistant manager (who is in charge if she isn't there) really likes me as I'm about the only semi-intelligent person who he gets to speak to all day and we have frequent conversations, pulling out the fish books and comparing notes etc. So through him I can get just about any fish I want without paying ridiculous money.

So work your charms, be loyal and establish a relationship that is based on friendship, not business. This takes time and yes initially it's all full costs, but do it right and you end up with FRIENDS who will help you out regardless.... And no this isn't a privately owned LFS either so chains can be just the same....

I can't remember how much the plants etc were, I wasn't really paying attention. I guess at the end of the day I spent a good Â£1000 on this tank, even after discount. But you have to realise that it's a one off cost, after that you have all the ferts, co2, fish etc you need and those are things that last for quite some time. Now I have a vast selection of plants and often end up throwing away LOADS from pruning. Either that or I sell them on - this week I removed 6 netfuls of the floating plant, then 3 days later had to do it again!!! Hopefully I'll be ok for a week but then I WILL have to do it again.

So you see, it might burn your wallet initially, but by doing it right and investing in quality stock/produce, you will find that your costs go down over the long term.

*Beats*
Thanks for the kind words! I do my best to keep them looking good ! I think it's actually mutual - my fish hypnotise me, I hypnotise them. Seems to keep us both entertained for an hour or so lol....

Hows that article going!?

Blair.


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## Dutch Dude

Still with my mouth hanging open,....WOOOW!!! Quit a difference on that tank Blair!!! It's looking gorgeous and hard to believe it is a grow out tank!!! The fry are god developing and I don't know what you do with them but they are realy fast growing!!! Hahaha,....well,....I'm a bit shy and realy don't want to put my charms on the male owner of my regular lfs :lol: Soo I was right all the time!!! You do hypnotize you're fish :lol: No wonder you take such beautiful pics of them! About buying plants. My advice on a new tank is not to buy big amounts of expensive plants and keep in mind that you bought young plants that will grow and need some space for that. If the plants once start to grow you probably end up with a to densely planted tank and have to pull a lot out. In the meantime you can add cheap fast growing plants like Cabomba or Egeria Densa. Those plants will consume a lot of nitrates and nutritions from the water so the algea would have a poor chance. Once the tank is established you can pull them out and not much money wasted. Or,......ask Blair if he wants to set-up your tank :lol:

*Straitjacketstar* Nice fish and I don't see much of deformity. They surely have less deformity as most of my Asian farm fish! Nice fish!

*Birdman* A 29 would be perfect for some Bolivians! If you do regular partial water changes, have it densely planted and good filtration you would be able to keep 5 in there. At the moment I have 10 grown Bolivians with 3 Brasiliensis Bahia Red. The male Bahia Red is abouth 9,5 inch and they are doing fine with the much smaller Bolivians. I never had any aggression issues but I have to say they were growing up with the Bolivians. In near future I will set-up a new densely planted for the Bolivians and only add some Loricara and Oto's. Breed Bolivians in the current tank is a no go.

*Beagle girl* How are you're youngsters doing? Did you have some result on lowering the temperature?

I will update soon with some pics of my Bolivian fry over here. (poor looking tank compared to Blair)

Hee BRO's talk to you soon!

Ruurd


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## blairo1

Dutch Dude said:


> Still with my mouth hanging open,....WOOOW!!! Quit a difference on that tank Blair!!! It's looking gorgeous and hard to believe it is a grow out tank!!! The fry are god developing and I don't know what you do with them but they are realy fast growing!!!


Thanks Ruurd, lol I just feed my fry, a lot - these fry have eaten Hikari First Bites from day one - no BBS.

I now have them eating NLS pellets. I think this makes a big difference, on the next batch I will feed them BBS and then onto NLS to see if there is a difference in the growth, colouration etc when compared to using First Bites as the initial feed.



> Hahaha,....well,....I'm a bit shy and realy don't want to put my charms on the male owner of my regular lfs :lol:


Hahaa, no Ruurd if it's a guy you make FRIENDS, it's the LADIES you want to charm  hahahahaha. I'll tell you, I haven't been charming any guys :lol:.



> Soo I was right all the time!!! You do hypnotize you're fish :lol: No wonder you take such beautiful pics of them!


 



> *About buying plants. My advice on a new tank is not to buy big amounts of expensive plants and keep in mind that you bought young plants that will grow and need some space for that. *


I think that this was so important it needed to be quoted again and made bold, the easiest thing to do is to cram the tank with plants to make it look good now, but the harder thing to do is to look at the tank, research the plants, envisage those plants at a MATURE level and with the information (ie how tall, broad etc) you can plan the tank. In my tank I'd even say I planted it a little dense in area's, but that is a large part of what I was aiming to achieve in the tank - which is to allow natural selection to encourage the plants to outgrow their "neighbour". If a plant dies back, others fill it's space. I enjoy watching this.



> If the plants once start to grow you probably end up with a to densely planted tank and have to pull a lot out. In the meantime you can *add cheap fast growing plants like Cabomba or Egeria Densa*. Those plants will *consume a lot of nitrates and nutritions from the water so the algea would have a poor chance*. Once the tank is established you can pull them out and not much money wasted. Or,......ask Blair if he wants to set-up your tank :lol:


Ruurd giving the advice I wish I'd thought to give :lol:. I'd love to set-up people's tanks for them, I could do it all day every day and not get bored. Of course I couldn't follow a brief, that might be my downfall lol, it has to be what I'VE envisaged .



> I will update soon with some pics of my Bolivian fry over here. (poor looking tank compared to Blair)


Ruurd, you know how much I enjoy your fish, what I really want to see is how that little male is coming along. He was a real stunner and even in such early development was set to be the next Mr Bolivian 2007... How old are the fry from that batch now?

Did you get any survivors from their younger brothers or did they pick them all off?

Cheers bud.
Blair.


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## Beats

*Blair*


> Hows that article going!?


YES! That is something I have to work on ASAP!! 
(My excuse is..., that *my Bolivian Rams had me hypnotized* !! :lol: )

There's hardly any Bolivian Ram info in Japan. 
....and sadly on top of that, they're just called by their scientific name "Altispinosus", which is pretty long, hard to pronounce, and hard to remember, when pronounced/said in a Japanese way...  ...........So, over all, not many people over here, know the name or have never heard of the name of this beautiful, full of character, fun to watch fish.  
(which you could maybe even hypnotize, if YOU have any secrets to share !!!  :lol:  )

As for plants, I guess could try and charm my LFS guy...  
.... BUT...., I think I'll go with Ruurd's suggestion!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

*Ruurd *
I'd love to see your Mr Bolivian 2007!! 8) 8) 8) 
and thank you for the tips on buying plants!!


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## Dutch Dude

At first,....some old pics. This were the fry from the second batch when they were abouth one week old.










This pic is of 7 weeks ago and there are 2 batch of fry in the tank of 10 weeks and 4 weeks old.










And this one is from the male Blair is talking abouth in his post (pic of 7 weeks ago)










The tank now with the fry of 17 and 11 weeks old.










And finally the pic Blair is waiting for,...probably this is that male but I'm not for sure. I have 3 males that are ahead on the others and almost do look the same. The color on this pic is a bit washed out but in the real the colors are stronger.










They are still youngsters and the smallest one is abouth 1 inch (mostly females from the last batch) and the bigest abouth 1,5 inch. In abouth 4 to 6 weeks the first are ready to be sold. Of course I keep the best looking fish myself and will make a selection later on.

Abouth the question if the fry from the last batch survived,...yes,....only e few died becouse of disorders in development but not of them get picked or killed by their brothers and sisters like befor with the 1 week and 3 week old fry. There are still a few (abouth 4 fish) with some small deformity (youngsters of Asian bread fish) that I will pic out later. My opinion is that they shouldn't been sold so I won't. The other fish look healthy and do have the more elongated body shape and do have a lot in common with that 7 year old male of mine.

Beats,...don't stare to long at the movement of the Bolivians,....you now know what happens, haha :lol: Maybe you can find some info over there by their old name (from the 80's) Papilogrommis Altispinosa. Whahaha,...be careful with that lfs guy Beats and take care that you don't end up with pain in the,.....you know 

Blair,...thanks for the tip abouth charming and make friends,...all of my friends are girls and I'm no gay but now I do understand why I'm single :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well,....he is still a little boy and It will take a loooooooong time befor he can compete with all the beautiful Bolivians on this site, haha!


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## spqrzilla

I saw some at the local Petsmart location this evening as others above have mentioned, but I did not care for the look of the Bolivians they had. I may try another location in the metro area over the weekend to see if I can see some better looking examples.


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## Dutch Dude

spqrzilla, I don't know what you didn't like on the Petsmart Bolivians but if they are still youngsters and are smaller than 2 inch they don't have much color yet. The main thing to look at is their belly,...did they get enough food and the body shape becouse of the deformities. Most lightly the Petsmart Bolivians are Asian farm fish. Would be nice if their was a local breeder in you're aria! Good luck with finding some nice specimens

Ruurd


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## blairo1

Yeah Ruurd is right, here's my male when I got him (well a couple of weeks after I got him even). When I go looking at young Bolivians I look for fish like this:










and everyone's seen my male (and probably bored stiff of these pics by now SORRY, I will get some new pics of him when the bugger comes out and plays ball!)










That's the same fish, 9 months later (approx).....

This female:









used to look like this:









So don't expect anything too nice, they are particularly young there though. Some that come into the fish store will have more colour but as Ruurd says, check their stomachs but also check their body shape - a lot are coming in with really odd looking shapes, nothing like my young Bolivians.... :?


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## spqrzilla

Ruurd, I did not want to take any from the store because they didn't look healthy, several had at least one cloudy eye, dead one still in the tank, etc. There is another location of the chain a half hour to the west that I'll try this evening. Or I'll do the rounds of the better independants on Saturday.

I'm thinking that these will be fun to replace some german rams I lost earlier in the month.


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## Dutch Dude

Blair,...nice to see the enormous difference between the young fish a week after you bought him and how it looks like now!!! Quit a difference! But yeh,...you got mister Bolivian of the year 2006!

Spqrlzilla,...Hmm,...sounds like a bad bad lfs to me and very wise not to buy the fish! If you can get a hold on some local bread fish would be realy nice but I gues they are hard to find because most come from Asia nowadays. German Rams are stunningly beautiful fish but unfortunately delicate. The Bolivians tolerate much more. I don't know how large the tank is but if it is a 35 gallon or larger you can considered a small shoal of abouth 5 to 7. Their social behavior in a small group is so much more interesting than a single pair. I hope you find some real nice once in the other shop and do you keep us posted on that?

Ruurd


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## spqrzilla

I'm going to put 2 or 3 in my 26 gallon. I kept the blue rams there for 8 months before losing them.

None of the local fish breeders in the local cichlid clubs are doing much of anything with central or south american cichlids - everyone is into africans. A friend of mine got the only apistogammas offered at the spring fish auction. So I'm dependant on what shows up in the LFS' tanks.


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## demonsoni

why depend on them, spend some extra money and get exactly what you want online.


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## spqrzilla

Shipping costs are generally prohibitive for the kind and quantity of fish I am dealing with.


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## Dutch Dude

Yes I know,...those Africans are very popular and over here in the lfs they are the most common fish. I don't see often Bolivians over here to and they are often bad Asian quality. Rams are much more delicate and a lot of people don't exceed in keeping them longer than 1 or 2 years. My oldest Bolivians are 7 years but under normal circumstances and good health they will get abouth 5 years. I don't know why but mine are really getting very old. I gues those Asian farm fish wont live that long.

A 26 gallon tank is not that big. What is the footprint (in inch) of the tank? Is it a planted tank? Lots of driftwood? Good filtration system and the time to do 2 times a week a 25% water change? If it is a long tank and you answered "yes" to all my questions you could consider to have 4 of them. I would not ad 3 becouse. If there will be a couple from those 3 the third fish will get "harassed" a lot by the other 2 fish. I suggest to have a couple or 4 of them. If you take 4 there isn't much space left for tetras or corydoras.


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## Beats

spqrzilla
I really hope you find the Bolivans you're looking for!!  
When I went to look for females, for my male Bolivian, 
I actually stood in front of the LFS fish tank for an hour and a half just to choose... :lol: 
BUT, I think it was worth the time...since, I think I got all the correct body shaped ones !! 
No deformities !! 

***EDIT***

Ruurd....
So, three is not a good number....
I put two females in, with each of my males, and in both tanks, there is one, that's always hiding in the bushes..... They can't seem to come out to eat, since they get shooed off, by either the male or the other female in the tank. Maybe, it's time, I take the girls in hiding out, and put them with my deformed female...? :-? 
But, I don't know if the male and the female, in either of my tanks are a pair..... :-?


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## Dutch Dude

This is exact why in my opinion 3 is not a good number. If you have a couple no problems and if the tank is large enough no problems with 5 of them,.....but if there are 3 the third will get picked by the other 2. Beats,.....It's being a while and with all the Bolivian questions I cant remember the size of the tanks you have. Maybe you can give some more info? You have 2 tanks with each 3 Bolivians and one tank with a deformed female? What is the size and the footprint of that tanks?


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## Beats

Ruurd, thank you for your reply, but first I have to say...,
I loved your little rams !! Since it was on the previous page, I kept on thinking that it was on another thread....  
You seem to have three nominees for Mr. Bolivan 2007!!  
Aggg....how are we supposed to choose??? All of them look GREAT!!!  :thumb:

My Bolivian Ram tanks are temporary right now, since I don't know if I'm only going to get one pair or two. 
So, currently they are all in small tanks a little under 10g. 
First tank: 6cm (2.4") male, and a 4.5cm(1.8") and a 4cm(1,6") females. (in this tank the 4.5cm female is the one in hiding)
Second tank: 5.5cm(2.2")male, and a 5cm(2") and a 4cm(1.6") females. (in this tank the 4cm female is in hiding)
Third tank: One 5.5cm(2.2") deformed female with cories and endlers.

I was hoping to get the pairs first, then decide wheather, I want to put 2 pairs in one tank and keep the 3 girls in another, or a tank for one pair each and another for the 3 girls, or one huge tank for them all (space wise this may not be possible....), or one tank for one pair, and one tank with the other pair plus the three girls........???

I'm sorry this it's so complicated.....
Should I take the females in hiding out and put them in the third tank for now...?
And also, could 3 females in a tank be a problem, too :-?

Sorry for all the questions.... 

****EDIT****

and this info might not be needed, but I just got the females about 10 days ago, so they just got out of quarentine a few days ago .(a little too quick, but since there was only one male in the tank that I got in mid February.....,　I cheeted....　　　But, every thing looks fine...　No illness or anything)
So, the males and females have only been together a few days.

****SORRY another EDIT****
The first tank and the third tank is the biggest holding 36 liters, so maybe I could move the little female from the 2nd tank to this first tank and make it, I male+3 females, make the other just the male and female?
:-?


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## Beats

Good Morning!! Ruurd!!  
(Yes, it's 6:11am here !!)

Sorry to have given you a complicated question...  
I felt so sorry for the girls in hiding last night, since the shooing got so bad that they couldn't come out to eat. I was actually dropping food on the plants so that they won't get hungry.

Since I feel bad watching, I think I might, fist try getting the girl from the second tank into the first tank, and if that doesn't work, I will take both of the hiding girls to the 3rd tank, for now....

...and when all settles, I'll have to get the tanks that they need, ready!!


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## Dutch Dude

Good morning Beats! Its evening over here and I just read you're early morning long post, :lol: Thanks for the nice words of my fry. I have 3 dominant males of abouth the same size and way ahead in development. It will be hard to catch them but those 3 will be in my selection for my future Bolivian tank. There are some deformed fish unfortunately (probably becouse the parents are Asian farm fish) and I will take them out when I catch the first batch for the lfs.

Beats,....hahaha,....please don't say sorry for asking questions,.....thats what this board is about right? 

Well,.....you sure make things complicated for me :lol: Keeps me sharp at this hour, haha :lol: 
Sooo,...to clear things out,....you got one deformed female, possibly 2 couples and 2 extra females. What is you're plan on the deformed female? Do you want to keep her or bring it back to the shop?

You got 3 very small tanks. Imo they are to small for the fish. It's hard to give a proper advice on this. Are you considering a larger tank? I kept 7 Bolivians in a densely planted 35 gallon tank so that could be a solution to you're problem. If you don't have the room for that you can consider 3 times a 20 gallon tank and make a rack and place the tanks on top of each other just like in the lfs. That saves some room. You can have 2 of the tanks with each one couple and the third tank the 3 females and corys. One 130 liter (35 gallon) would be big enough to house all the fish IF well maintained, and a good filtration system like a good quality canister for example. For short term,.......38 liter is just to small for 4 fish of that size and will give some territorial issues like you have now.


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## Beats

Good evening to you Ruurd!!  
and Thank you for your reply, to a weird question.   

The current tanks are just temporary, to see if I get pairs. I already had these tanks as spares with little fish keeping the bacteria going so I just put them in there to see if I can get pairs first.

Their future tank will be bigger, but depending on whether I keep the pairs separated or not, or to keep the deformed girl away from the pairs is not decided yet.

If I separate the pairs, then I'll have two sets of offsprings which I could sell, and take to my second LFS. It will just be easier to keep the blood line, separate.

So, what I have been doing for the last few days is, waiting to see if I can get pairs, before I go out to buy tanks. 
(Well I won't have to buy one, since one of my JD will be moving into a bigger tank within a month).
If I do decide to somehow put them all into one tank, I'll have to take my deformed one to my second LFS (this is my LFS where I do fish trades, and where I got most of my female rams in exchange for my self bred cories) and some how make sure the fries from the two pairs wont end up getting mixed..., since if that happens, the second LFS who are interested in my future ram juvie's won't be able to take them (that was our agreement -- since it will cause inbreeding if the customers want to breed and it won't look good for me either), and the fry will just end up being feed for my other rams, JDs or Oscar.
...and yes, I will have to make space for another BIG tank.

As for tank racks, I aleady have one, with 6 small sized tanks (36literes or under) on it , so the ones I won't be using will be taken off and the ones I'll be needing for my rams will go on it. 
(I'm one of the stupid..... I have 11 tanks including a big Oscar tank + feeder tank) .

I guess I'm going to have to watch my rams very closely and work this one out myself...
I should have known about the "3", since I already have cichlids, and have put warnings on my blog info page about keeping "2" or "3" cichlids in the same tank, unless the "2" in the tank are pairs. I guess I somehow thought that being so peaceful, the Bolivian Rams won't be like Oscars or JDs!
I got the last female, so my deformed one wont end up in a "2" situation, which can usually bring out the worst, if they are the same sex.

I'll see and make sure they wont get stressed up!!


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## Beats

I'm sorry... While I was writing, I was thinking about the next tanks and whether I really want to breed or just have fun, and just enjoy watching how the Bolivian Ram parents raise their fry, etc, etc., ....and .....I forgot to *Thank you Ruurd, for your time and thoughts!!*   
I know the minimum tank size for the Bolivians, since I asked in another thread, and you kindly answered. I will make sure, that they won't be overstocked or stressed out !!


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## Beats

Since, people have their own textbooks as to how to raise and breed,
I didn't know if I should report..., but, I now have peaceful tanks. 
One with 1 alpha male & 1 alpha female with 2 female underlings (occasional gill flairing between the girls, but no one is in hiding and everyone is out swimming). And another with just the alpha male & alpha female, that don't really interact with each other (even in a good way, but it's peaceful).

I'll probabaly get flaired for saying this, but, whether it's my oscar, jack dempseys or other fish, I never put juvies in a huge tank. I have lots of tanks going and lots of unused tanks, so they will all start off in a small sized tank. That way I can keep a close eye on things. I can make sure that they're all eating well and keeping healthy, and I find that, that time can also be spent on seeing who goes well with who or who doesn't go well with who., etc, 
BUT, my fish all grow well (my oscar grew at a rate of an inch and a half a month, my jack dempseys both growing at over an inch a month, (until they get close to their adult size), my **** grow well, and they are all healthy.

I thought I'd add this, since I don't think I'm doing anything wrong, even if there are people, who are against this way of rasing fish.


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## blairo1

Hey *Beats*, as long as water quality is kept up with regular and frequent water changes then there is nothing wrong with your method. You just put the fish in bigger tanks as they require it, obviously that means you are not stunting them by keeping them in too small a tank for a long period/indefinately and you are meeting their needs.

The benefit in a larger tank is obviously that you have a much larger area for the fish to swim in, but a 2" fish in 120 gallons is pretty crazy, right. You also have a much larger volume of water so the waste disappates further meaning that, on the whole, your water quality is easier to keep up. But as I said, water quality is a case of good filtration and thorough cleaning combined with frequent water changes, whatever the size tank....

Nothing wrong with your method bud. It's called a grow-out tank . Lol.

Blair.


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## Dutch Dude

Heeey Beats.

At first,....I can understand why you keep the small youngsters in small tanks. I started with the fry in a 15 gallon (60 liter) and just filled it half. It's easier to observe and live food is easier found by the fish. When the fish became larger I added more water. Than there was a second batch and had to make room for them. I placed the oldest fry in a 35 gallon and filled it half and did the same thing. Finally I added the last batch of fry to the 35 gallon. I'm not saying that fry in a small tank is an bad option,....as long as the water is clean, and there is enough space for them to swim and they are not stressed. My opinion is that a 35 liter (10 gallon) is to small for 3 Bolivians. A couple is already on the edge if you consider that the size of the tank is abouth the size of their territory. But,....lots of breeders do keep their fish in tanks that size. Or good old Discus frieng Larry (Apistomaster) does the same. I like to give my fish more space. No hard feelings and no offence but just an other point of few.

So you're not sure on keeping the fish in one shoul or breed them. Did you considered a larger tank that can be split up in several unit with some tank dividers?

Abouth the couples. If you keep them in a big shoul they will pair up more easily I gues. More females to chose. Sometimes males cheat and have a second female as well.

I'm glad to hear the fish are doing well and there aren't territorial issues any more (if I understand it correctly?). You know what you are doing.

I hope you get some nice couples :thumb:


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## Beats

Hi, Blair! Hi Ruurd! 

Thank you for your understanding and kind words!!  
First of all,YES, there's NO territorial issues!! :thumb: 
Everyone's looking happy, swimming and eating!! 

...and as for water quality, 
YES, water changes and keeping easy maintenance tanks, are things that I've always worked on! 
BUT, I use a lot of helpful equipments, to make the water changes and cleaning as easy as possible.  So, it's kind of cheeting....  Hardly no water carring at all... 

On big tanks I use one of those tank hoses to clean the gravel with, while getting the water out, and as for smaller tanks, I either use a narrower hose or connect a straw (the ones for drinks) on the end of an air tube to clean and get the water out,....and as for fry tanks I just stick an air stone on the end of the air tube to get the water out WITH OUT the fry ,and put some red rams horns into the tank to do the bottom cleaning (their poop is also full of GOOD bacteria).

Then, I just use my water purifier, with hoses on each end, to get the warm water (the purifier can stand heat up to 38C or 100F) in to a big container, in my what's ended up being my tank room, adjust the tempreture, then use a little water pump with a hose to get the water into all the tanks. As for the fry tanks, and small tanks on which I want to lessen the water flow, I just use a bucket with several air tubes, to drip/hose the water into. 
...Well for hardier fish, I sometimes just use jars...  

Also, I think I'm helped out by the fact, that my tap water is subterranean water (? is this what you call it? the water from underground as opposed to stream water). 

BUT, YES, the Bolivan Rams will have a bigger tank  , although I'm leaning more towards two tanks for breeding and a community tank for my deformed female and 2 others. Right now, the two small tanks are right next to each other, and the rams seem to like interacting with their next door neighbours, so a big tank with dividers could be nice, but having two bigger tanks on my rack would be better space wise & maintenence wise  .
Right now, my JDs are in separate tanks and I will be raising them separatly, but someday I'm thinking of either having their tanks right next to each other, or getting a bigger tank with dividers (I wont be breeding them), so I would like to leave some space for that as well.

Ruurd
NO offence taken!! and NO hard feelings at all!!  

Blair
Your magic ratio of M1:F3 is GOOD!!  

Now..., I think I'd better go to bed....it's already 4:30am!


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## Dutch Dude

Beats,...I'm glad you don't took my words as offence and I noticed that Blair and I responded at the same time with abouth the same content. I'm convinced that you know what you are doing and till so far I can go with that. To all the possible new Bolivian fans i have to say that I don't recommend to keep Bolivians in 10 gallon tank for long term. If it is for short term (quarentine or grow out) pay a lot of attention to water quality's like Beats and Blair already mentioned. Soooo,....I was clear on that one wasn't I? :lol:

Probably it's morning when You read this post Beats and I hope you had a nice dream of some Bolivian tanks, hahaha! Have a nice day and talk to you soon :thumb:


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## mbunaferd

Hello All

I just finished cycling my 75gal, and the first thing I did was go to my LFS and I bought four beautiful Bolivians for my tank. I am thinking about getting two more to add to the group. I can't wait till they lose their fear, and start working their way around the tank. Right now they are sharing the tank with about 12-15 tetras, and soon or later Discus...

Wish me luck all!!!

Mbunaferd


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## Dutch Dude

Mbunaferd, Welcome to the BRC, haha! I predict you to get addicted to the specie. A group of 6 would be realy nice in a 75 gallon tank and they will show you very interesting and funny social behavior. Once they get used to the tank they greet you when you come close to the tank and beg for food. They do fine with tetras even the smallest species.

Abouth discus and Bolivians,.....You probably not gonna like my reply. I don't know if it is wise to have Discus and Bolivians in one tank. Temperature is an issue. Discus need at least a temp of 82 and preferable 84 to 86. That's to high for Bolivians I'm afreight. Probably they will stand the 82 but will decrease their health and live span already. A temp of 85 is a no go. You can consider 2 things,....switch the Bolivians for Ramirezi (also need high temps and do very well with Discus) or an other tank mate in stead of Discus.

Ruurd


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## Beats

Hi! *Ruurd* !!  
Agggg....  I didn't get to see Bolivan Rams in my dream....  
Actually, I don't remember, seeing any dreams :?
....or maybe I just forget easily. :lol:

*mbunaferd*
Congratulations on getting the 75gal all ready for your fish! :thumb: 
As, *Ruurd (Dutch Dude)* has said, YES, Bolivian Rams do come to you to beg for food !! 
I had all 6 of them lined up in front of me, last night!!
They are currently in 2 tanks, right next to each other.....
I don't know if they all had a discussion on how to come out to beg for food, 
but, I really had 6 little ones all lined up in front of me!!  :lol:  
They are very entertaining!! :thumb:

As for the Bolivan Ram and Discus problem, I'm sure you'll find the right fish for your community tank! :wink: 
Even if the combination, will not be what you had in mind, I'm pretty sure, that the fish you choose, will bring you LOTs of enjoyment!!!


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## ChrisWalker

Hi again people. Just thought I'd keep the thread going by sharing some more pics with my fellow Ram lovers. I'd like to see more of your photos too guys.

Oh and while I'm here.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivian_ram - This is the Bolivian Ram wikipedia page I created a few months back....Please guys add to this with photos, info, correct any mistakes etc....Help spread the word about this amazing fish. 

My pair are still yet to spawn  I've had them about 4 months now.










































Oh and they share with these two little blues. Also amazing fish.


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## Dutch Dude

Thanks Chris for sharing this great pictures of you're very handsome and good looking fish!!! :thumb: I'm impressed!!!

Ruurd


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## blairo1

Good stuff Chris, those Bolivians look nice and healthy.

Good to see they're not skinny and nice to see some other healthy Rams here in the UK.

What are your water parameters?
How have you gone about trying to induce spawning?

They are certainly ready for it, just get them some protein and a bit of fat. Ie bloodworms - I recommend you feed them bloodworms 2x a day instead of their regular feed, for 3 days, then return to your normal feed. I bet they'll spawn, or at least start to get the idea into their heads . This has worked for me over and over, :lol: now I don't even condition them, haha, they're just always "on" :roll:.

The wikipedia article you wrote is good, I would like to add to it, but I'm not too hot on how they want you to edit it lol - all I want to do is add my images distinguishing differences between the sexes, along side my text explaining each shot. I did this to try and help others positively sex their Bolivians, so I would be more than happy to put it on wikipedia. Copyright, of course.

Blair.


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## spqrzilla

Blair, beware of wikipedia's terms for contributions.


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## Beats

Hi Everyone!! 

It's 6am where I live, so I want to go back to bed.............

BUT, on seeing *Chris Wakers Great photos,* I thought I'd like to post a couple of mine up, too!  
(I only have a very small camera, and I tried using flash -- on the camera-- with several layers of tissue on it!! 
Blair, I think this was your idea!? :thumb: I think it worked out pretty good, considering the fact that this was only my second try at taking photos with flash and tissues!! 

This is Phoenix and Melody watching their neibours (the other Bolivaina Rams) in their temporary tank.









And this one is also Phoenix and Melody.
They have started moving around together, although, it's not always,









The Japanese Wikipedia articals on Bolivian Ram is just........#%&+*?.........  :-?


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## justflow1983

I just set up the new tank for the rams. Yea, I know its unplanted but I think the fakes look fairly decent, I went to michael's and bought some bouquet plants.



















The rocks are from the bottom of the waterfall down the street from my house. The fish themselves are a little washed out because I was gone last week and had them on one of those little auto feeders. Its a 29g stocked with 2 Bolivian rams, 1 leporinus fasciatus (when he gets to 4" the LFS said they'll buy him back), 2 harlequins, and 3 x-ray tetras. The two rams are schooling together and the small one is a female i think now, since there is definitely what appears to be an ovipositor. I was thinking of adding 2-3 rams and having a shoal, or a pair of angels to take up the top of the tank, plus a few more dithers for the color such as some lemon and red tetras. I'm well filtered and my water is hard but the ph is usually 6.5-7.0, i change the water frequently so the nitrates are rarely above 20 ppm. Any other stocking suggestions or ideas?

Also, the AC70 is loud as ****, should i switch it out?


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## justflow1983

here's the links to the pics since they didn't show up.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ... otostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ... otostream/

Andrew


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## ChrisWalker

Thanks for the compliments everyone  And great photos too, Beats and Justflow. It's interesting seeing how everybodies rams are so different.



blairo1 said:


> Good stuff Chris, those Bolivians look nice and healthy.
> 
> Good to see they're not skinny and nice to see some other healthy Rams here in the UK.
> 
> What are your water parameters?
> How have you gone about trying to induce spawning?
> 
> They are certainly ready for it, just get them some protein and a bit of fat. Ie bloodworms - I recommend you feed them bloodworms 2x a day instead of their regular feed, for 3 days, then return to your normal feed. I bet they'll spawn, or at least start to get the idea into their heads . This has worked for me over and over, :lol: now I don't even condition them, haha, they're just always "on" :roll:.
> 
> The wikipedia article you wrote is good, I would like to add to it, but I'm not too hot on how they want you to edit it lol - all I want to do is add my images distinguishing differences between the sexes, along side my text explaining each shot. I did this to try and help others positively sex their Bolivians, so I would be more than happy to put it on wikipedia. Copyright, of course.
> 
> Blair.


Blair, tbh I haven't tried to "induce" spawning in them, i normally feed them pellets. When you say blood worm do you mean live blod worm? I feed the tank freeze dried blood worms but the rams never come to the top to eat. Apart from that they get some frozen daphnia sometimes.

One of my blue rams is from down your way, the female is from Trimar mail order. Good service. What do you know about the quality of the rams, both blue and bolivian in this country?

I often read horror stories about poor quality fish from asian farms. Is that just something that those in the US have to deal with?


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## Beats

Hi! Chris!  


> I often read horror stories about poor quality fish from asian farms. Is that just something that those in the US have to deal with?


It's not only the US, but Japan, too.  
I was talking to my LFS guy, about which South East Asian countries breed Bolivian Rams, and I was told that the only one he's heard of are from Singapore, and those are the ones we get. 
BUT, he also said that when he went to get some fish for the store yesterday, he saw some "German Bolivan Rams" from Germany. I asked him, if he saw any differences between the Singapore ones and the German ones, but he said that they weren't that different..... :roll:

Now..., since I don't know that much more, I'll leave the rest to Blair !!!


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## blairo1

Hey Chris,

Bloodworm either live or frozen works. If they aren't so hot on the frozen, defrost it a bit in some tank water first (if you don't already). But preferably you want LIVE bloodworm, it's the worming motion that really excites them and set's them off. After feeding live bloodworms (or frozen) to mine they really go hyperactive and usually spawn that evening....

Tri-Mar are good and their SA's are great as that is what Monty is really into, but they aren't so hot on the Africans, some nice Juli's, Calvus and occassionally a nice Tropheus but nothing special.

I've actually stopped going there recently for reasons of my own and I actually use the local Maidenhead Aquatics. People may roll their eyes at the thought but the one near me is fantastic and the staff are really clued up and proactive in getting good fish and providing good information. Those are morals I certainly don't argue with. The bonus is I can get just about any fish I want and I get first pick of anything that comes in . I couldn't comment on other stores in other area's but this one is great and the stock is usually pristine (with a good quarantine period too).

Re quality of Mikrogeophagus in this country, it's the same deal as the rest of the world. Tri-Mar get the majority of their stock from Singapore, they get a lot of their Dwarf Species from Europe (such as Pelvicachromis) and these are usually of fantastic quality, but I have to say I've seen a larger number of healthy fish at my local Maidenhead. Most of their stock comes from Czech Republic, occasionally Brazil, with hardly any Singapore imports.

Even with this in mind it's hit and miss, in the past 5 months I've only seen TWO Bolivian Rams that I would have bought (and did), that's it, the rest had deformities, or in most instances such mild deformities you wouldn't notice (such as really long fins, odd shaped forehead and snouts), by all means not a NATURAL Bolivian....

10 months ago I got a group of 8 that were of "superior" quality (certainly in comparison to 90% of what you see now) and grew them up, selecting the best of the bunch and slowly breaking the group down until I was left with my male (see my pics earlier in the thread) and a female. As I said, since then I've only seen two that I could envisage maturing to be of a similar quality. I bought those two and another female that wasn't so bad and added them to my group, my male chose the nicest female and they are now my solid pair.

Your fish are very healthy and show a similar bodyshape and age as my Male, which makes me think you managed to catch the same "wave" of that Bolivian strain as I did. How long ago did you get yours?

You just have to frequently scour the LFS tanks and keep your eye out for the one or two nice Bolivians in a bunch. I can spot a striker now when they are just little babies, you can just see it, "ooh now that one, THAT ONE is going to be special".

Blair.


----------



## Beats

Oh..oh.... 



> in most instances such mild deformities you wouldn't notice (such as really long fins, odd shaped forehead and snouts), by all means not a NATURAL Bolivian....


So...., my 2nd Bolivian Male I bought for finnage IS considered a deforemed ram...
Well, I'm going to still breed him, to get finnage....


----------



## blairo1

Beats I'm only talking about in proportion to their bodies - in young Rams some have HUUUUGE dorsal fins on such tiny fish, it just doesn't look right, when I got my young male their dorsal fins were quite proportionate, certainly not as tall as some of the ones I've seen and this has always just been something I've watched for. I don't think it's a "deformity" as such, just makes me suspicious that some sort of growth enhancer has been used... There will always be natural variation in the lengths of fins, I'm just talking about the instances where it is quite strikingly disproportionate.

Blair.


----------



## Beats

Oh! Thank you, Blair!!  
I now feel better!!  But, yes, I was wondering about the growth enhancers and such, since I felt that some of them have too much color for their size as well.  
It will make them look better in stores, but I think I'm going to have to really look after them well, since they can't be as healthy and strong with all the chemicals and hormones that they've been injected with. This IS sad. 

I can't have any more Bolivian Rams (or any fish for that matter), because I won't have any space for them once mine grow up, but if we are starting to get German Bolivian Rams, I'm pretty sure other countries will get them as well or already have them (specially in Europe), so maybe getting hold of those, would be a much wiser & better choise.


----------



## Dutch Dude

Chris,.....over here in Europe there are also a lot of bad quality Asian Bolivians. I bought some Bolivians 7 years ago that were good quality and nice looking fish. Most of them died (becouse of high age) and I decided abouth 8 months ago to buy a new bunch of youngsters. They are all small and only one or two seem to look quit normal of body shape. Sooo,...I got abouth 6 deformed fish. :? Beats,.....good quality Bolivians have a longer body shape and get abouth 2,5 cm / 1 inch larger than most Asian farm fish. Probably the live span of the good quality (local breed) fish will be longer to. I rarely see Bolivians over here and never seen them a "German" Bolivians but probably that becouse they are just the neighbors or,.......the fish get to other countries where the word "German" is a reason to pay more for the fish. The Asian farm fish are cheaper than the local and European breed fish. Beats,...you're right that small Bolivians don't have that much color. You can see it at my pics. The largest fish are about 4 to 4,5 cm (1,7 inch) and doesn't have strong colors yet. The body shape is longer than the Asian farm fish that are showing some yellow already at that size and seem to have a shorter higher body shape. It's the youngsters I will make a selection of and keep the best and most perfect once.

Justflow,.....nice looking tank and I like to seen some more pics of you're fish later on :wink: And question,.....don't you want some real plants?

Beats,.....nice pics!!!! and,.....good looking strong colored fish to!!! :thumb:

Ooh and Blair,....glad you're back,...didn't see you on the board the last couple of day's and I did almost sent you a PM to ask if everything is OK :lol:


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## justflow1983

haha yea i do want to get some live plants, but I have to break the tank down in 2 months. I'm graduating from uni in may, and then going to spain for a much needed month off and to visit family and leaving the tank with a friend from grade school who likes taking care of things. After that I'll either be in Philadelphia, Limerick, London, or Seattle depending on which job I get, so it doesn't make sense for me to get any deeper into this than I am now. If I go overseas I'm gonna sell the tank and give the fish away, if i stick around i'll keep the tank and stock it better. So we'll see....

It's been very relaxing keeping the tank though, it really gave me something to take my mind off of my thesis.


----------



## blairo1

Hey Ruurd, yeah my PC died - the PSU went BANG, strong smell of smoke, felt the pop through the floor!! :lol: I thought it was game over. Went and got the new PSU today and wired it up, gotta love my built in surge protector... saved my PC many a time.


----------



## blairo1

Well as promised I have some new shots of my Bolivian Male, I'd love to hear what you all think!




























Blair.


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## tmack

Just one word - WOW! :thumb:


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## Dutch Dude

Hey Blair,.....wow,......so the PSU went up in very badly smelling chemical smoke! Awful smell! Luckely you are back and,......again,.....with great pics of you're beautiful colored fish!!! :thumb:

Keep it short this time but will be back tomorrow :wink:


----------



## Beats

Ruurd,
Thank you for your kind comments on my rams!  
and regarding "German" being the reason to pay more, YES, 
people here will pay more with out any questions for a "German Ram". :lol: 
It' like "Germany" = "Great Fish". The German blue rams, have their own names here, "German Ram".
BUT, that goes for Holland as well,  the blue rams from Holland are called "Holland Rams", and people will definatly pay more for them, too!! :thumb:

Blair,
....Your PC died....  My hard disc died a few months back, and I had to get a new one to install. Lost some data, but I was lucky some backups... 
BUT, I have yet to see smoke come out of PCs.... 

Your photos of your male ram.......drool
His color is just great!! The contrast between his yellow and red fins is awesome !! :thumb: 
Gorgeous Fish!! :thumb: 
I would love to raise mine, to look like yours...even if it's only a little.


----------



## ChrisWalker

Hi guys.

Blair, wonderful photos...How big is he? I've had mine since mid November. I was trying to figure out how old they might be. How old roughly are they when they're given to a fish store? They were about 1 and a half inches when I got them, now the male is about 3 inches including fins.

Dutch Dude, it's wierd - I thought we'd have more strict regulations in Europe about imports but obviously not. It's quite worrying really.

About the spawning, I'll get them some live bloodworm, see how that goes. Their pair bond seems fairly weak. Very "on and off". The male often does his little shimmy type move with his gills and fins flared etc, but the female is rarely interested. They'll go for a couple of weeks where they will follow each other around and be practically inseparable, and then there will be other times when the male pecks at her whenever she comes near - never with any real consequences but still.

There have been a number of times when the male has dug a little pit in the sand but nothing has ever come of it.

I can only hope that they'll get it right


----------



## blairo1

Thanks all!

He's 3.5" TL and really full bodied Chris.

They reach 3" pretty quick and then they just start to fill out and really bloom so the next 3 months are going to be the most interesting for you, in regards to watching them mature (or ripen as I like to think of it :lol.

I got this guy when he was really small, about 1.25"!!! Too young to be in the store really but I did my bit :lol:. I've had this guy for about 11 months now, so he's probably a year and a bit old - I would imagine they were 2, 2 1/2 months old when the LFS got them.

Re your pairs bond, Bolivians are just like that, seriously, they are on and off all the time. Once they have spawned together and managed to raise fry for a while, the bond strengthens and they take it in turns to guard whilst the other patrols, or feeds/gathers food. Once the fry are, well, usually eaten, then the bond breaks again just as quickly as it had formed.

I've found that my male is very selective about his spawning partner, and even offered 3 different females, who all courted him in turn, he still chose the same one time after time. So there is some connection there, but it's all about testing the ability of that fish and if it doesn't make a good parent, look out....

Blair.


----------



## ChrisWalker

Yeah, I was originally going to get another 2 females before I got the blue rams. But then I saw some blue rams in the LFS and I'd never seen them before in real life (for some reason they're kind of hard to come by up here, hence one of them being ordered from Tri-Mar). I had to get one.

The blue rams are interesting fish...They've only been together a few weeks but their bond seems very strong already. They don't seem as personal as the bolivians though, seem a lot more independent. Maybe because they're young, but with the bolivians I can't even come into the room quietly in the dark without them hearing me...."The food source is here, quick Attennnnn-tion!" - straight to the front lol.

It's wierd how the blue and bolivian rams sort of school together...They go around in their seperate pairs but acknowledge each other all the time...It's fascinating to watch a 3 inch bolivian ram lip lock with a 1 and a half inch blue ram..lol.


----------



## Beats

Sorry... I just wanted to correct something I wrote in my previous post.

In Japan we say "Holland Rams", but in English it will be "Duch Rams"... :lol: 
I really need to start posting during our day hours before going to bed, or I'll probably start writing very weird things... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## justflow1983

I finally decided against adding more rams to my 29gal after watching how much my current pair owns the tank, I couldn't make them share. This morning I put in 3 australian rainbowfish (something _splendida_) and made a great discovery. The addition of another large, active fish in the tank has them showing their fully colors all the time, like they need to remind them who the bosses are. Also, my _leporinus fasciatus_ has decided to take the bolivian's side, he schools with them and chases everything out of their territory for them. I know my tank is stocked funny but its working for now so we'll see how it goes.


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## Dutch Dude

Beats,....hahaha,...Holland rams :?: Hahaha,...how abouth Holland Bolivians,.....would they be worth more money to :wink: I have a nice bunch of youngsters  German breed fish are indeed of a high quality and based on selective breeding in stead of hormones and stuff.

Chris,...Unfortunately hormone treated fish come across our borders. I know the import of `colored or painted` fish is not allowed but I donÂ´t know abouth hormone matured fish. ItÂ´s a sad thing and it should be forbidden!!!


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## Beats

Ruurd, 
Holland Bolivians!! :lol:  :lol: That would be NICE!! They would sell for a higher price, just like the German Bolivians !!  
But...., I think we're going need more Bolivian Ram Fans in Japan...
Once we do have more Bolivian Ram Fans, maybe I could be your distributor!!  
We could both make money.......... 8)  8)


----------



## blairo1

Well I'll be in the States which is even closer :lol: so count me in!


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

I have 6 Bolivians in a 20 gal L with 9 Neon Tetras. I am trying to get a pair and then get rid of the extras everything is going good except I cant seem to make my tank look real! I want to make it natural looking but I am having a hard time with it a long with my 55 I have 6 Keyholes that I am also hoping to get 2 pairs of and I cant seem to find a look I like! Also I know that I need to change my substrate first off but that probably wont happen for a while so.......Anyways enough blabber! :roll:

Ill post pics in a min![/img]


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## Compressed

Cichlid Lover128..what do you mean by...you want it to look natural. Live plants? If not..trying to make it look great with plastic plants? Live plants are a whole different ball game..BUT..there are a few plants out there that don't need as much attention as others. Do you have a pic of your tank?


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

I have to get an updated one Ill get one on here later today or tomorrow! Sorry!


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

as promised here is my 20 gal L Bolivian Ram Tank








All plants are live

Here is my 55 gal Keyhole Tank








Again all plants are live and a piece of driftwood


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## blairo1

The natural look you want till come with:

Honey/natural coloured sand.
A dark blue background.

Your keyhole tank would look really nice with sand and a blue background.

Just my 2 cents but I think you should try it!


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## Compressed

Agree with Blairo 100% on the substrate and the need for a background. If you are not running CO2 and want real plants..ya got to give them the best you can.

The large gravel is not the best for plants. If you are afraid to work with sand..Petsmart was carrying this very very very small Tp Fin gravel..almost feels like sand...that is very easy to work with. Plus it's a natural brown.

For the plants...I would add some fert root tabs and add some Flourish Excel daily. BUT, be sure and read the directions..some have over dosed and killed some fish. I have had success with the Amazon "bleheri" sword..without running CO2..and they fill up a tank nicely. I see you have some swords in your tank now..they could be the "bleheri". You need to cut the old oval leaves off. They force grow them and that is way when you buy them there is an oval leaf on a stem. When those die back you should see a new leaf..shaped more like a sword.

Some other plants to consider in a low tech tank are the Cryptocoryne.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

Ya I know I want the sand but like I have said that isnt something I can work with just yet. I mean I am going to have move everything out and including gravel and basically start over plus not to mention money spent on gravel. But the background I can do so a blue background would work? Yeah I am going to buy a CO2 system when I get back and I save my money up.

I have some fertalizer sticks in there on all of them. And I give them plant grow solution every week when I do water changes. I have crypts in my 20 gal L and Java Fern on the driftwood in the 55! Thanks!


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## Dutch Dude

I agree with Blairo and Compresed and add that a black background is also a posibility. For the 20 gallon,....I would add some more plants and more driftwood and would remove some of the stones. Except fort the sand you can also use small gravel with a grain size of abouth 0,1 inch. Les natural but the build up of gases would be les than with sand and doesn't get siphoned up that easy (with cleaning the tank). I would recommend a layer of at least 2 inch with a good quality plant substrate on the bottom of the tank.

The 55 doesn't look that bad and the sand or gravel, background and some extra plants in the background (Egeria Densa would be great and are easy and cheap) would give the tank a much more natural look.


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## blairo1

Oh yeah, when I said blue I meant deep blue that fades to black....


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

I know about the gravel but again thats not going to happen for a while! Until I get my own house and such. I mean its going to be costly, I am going to have to do a HUGE water change out of both of them and scoop the gravel out, let the tank re-mini cycle through again, and add everything back. So I know for sure I could do it when I move that way it would be easier and less of a hassle.

When I get back from my trip I am going to get a piece of driftwood for the 20 gal L, a higher intensity bulb for the both the 20 gal L and 55, and a dark blue background for both of them. As for more plants I may add more I dont know I think I am pretty well stocked on plants for the 20gal L arent I? Thanks guys! I wanted to go with a natural substrate in the beginning of setting them up but my parents didnt like it and wanted color!! :roll: :roll: And I know now that if I change the gravel now they wouldnt care about the gravel it would be the cost and mess that would bother them! Thanks again!


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## Over_Stocked

If you were to add sand the cost would be about 15 dollars for both tanks combined. It really isn't that much work either. The mess is minimal, and putting down a tarp or sheet or something prevents major messes.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

Ok if I were to add sand how im I going to take the water out? Should I take 50% out and dump the rest out then scoop all of the gravel out or is there an easier way to do it? Please fill me in on how to properly do this because I dont want to hurt what I got going. Also when it comes to syphoning do I still do the usual thing or is there another way around it? Also is there a special type of sand I use or is it all the same? Like would the salt water sand work? Thanks!


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## Over_Stocked

You do not have to take out all of the water to take out all of the gravel. Kitchen sections at walmart have this strainer/scoop that works great for picking up the gravel. I then took a milk jug, attached a hose to it, and poured sand(mixed with water in a bucket) down the milk jug into the hose, to the bottom of the tank. then flushed the hose with water into the tank. it stopped the tank from getting too cloudy.

You don't need "salt water" sand. That is over priced and not necessary. Silica sand or pool filter sand from home depot is much cheaper, and just as good. To clean it you put the vac .5-1" away from the surface and everything comes up.

I've never had changing the gravel hurt anything.

Many people can give you pointers on how to switch, but it only took me an hour in my 29g tank.


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

I called my LFS tonight and I asked if they had a natural brown sand and they said yes and I asked how much for it and they said $15.00 for a 50 lbs bag and thats the only size they had. Is that a good deal? If so how many 50 lbs bags should I get for my 55 and 20 gal L? You guys really now how to persuade people dont you haha well actually I already wanted to add the sand but I figured it would be a pain but then I was like pain or not this an interesting project to work on. I am always in need of a project to do why not do it on my aquariums since I really LOVE aquariums and fish! Thanks guys! :thumb:

Please give me pointers and stuff this is my first time doing this! Thanks! Although this project isn't going to get started for a couple of weeks or maybe a month or two. Because I am leaving for England Thursday  and this my Senior year in HS and the year is closing down with papers EVERYWHERE!!!! :x :roll:


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## Over_Stocked

As I said: HOME DEPOT, Lowes, Menard's, etc, etc, etc, will be much cheaper. Much, much cheaper. You'll get to decide what color you want too.


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## blairo1

Ok *CiChLiD LoVeR128*,

Changing to Sand, my way:

You're taking the rocks/plants etc out anyhow so do this first - makes catching fish easier.

Depending on how many fish are in the tank I will either catch all the fish and put them in a 10 gallon poly tub with a load of their tank water and a few decorations/plants. Poly tubs are nicely insulated to keep the temp stable whilst I work. OR if there are a lot of fish/ones I really don't want to move, then it can be done with them in the tank.

Doing it by the first method is IMO a bit better - by keeping them in the insulated box it's nice and dark for them, as well as being far less stressfull over all.

Ok!

Give the gravel a really good stir up whilst substrate vacuuming until you get as much of the crud out as possible. Keep adding temp matched, dechlorinated water back as you will have been syphoning the gravel and some amount of water out of the tank. Next scoop all the gravel out, I just used my measuring jug to do this.

Then, having spent quite literally a half-hour rinsing the sand - take a wasteful attitude whilst doing this - I really blasted the sand with a hose and quickly tipped the majority of the surface water out. If it's light enough to be floating in those few seconds then it's light enought to be a pain in the neck later!

Fill the measuring jug with the rinsed sand, cover the top with your hand, allowing you to "carry" the sand right to the bottom where you gently pour it out. Replace rocks, plants etc, do another 20% WC and get the filter running back in the tank for 30 mins with a fine sponge over the intake to protect it from finer particles. Then re-introduce the fish gradually.

I did it this way with water in the tank and I suppose I could have kept the fish in there too but I didn't really like the idea of subjecting them to that sort of disruption. Had I kept the fish in they would have probably been 100% fine and due to my thorough rinsing the tank only took 24 hours for the "haze" to vanish. Literally 24 hours.

At the bottom of this page is a calculator for working out how much sand you need (in lbs):
http://cichlid-forum.com/articles/calculator.php

Hope that helps. 
Blair.


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## demonsoni

before and after:


















thats pool filter sand btw 5 dollars for enough to do a 55 gallon


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## ChrisWalker

ckohler1, cool pics...And good substrate change I love tanks with sand. Seems to reflect the light well and brighten everything up.


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## Dutch Dude

:thumb: only put sand in it and makes a big difference already!!!


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## Beats

I love the sand and your fish !! :thumb:


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

Ok thanks guys!


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## ChrisWalker

Hi all. Just gonna back track a little...

I got some frozen blood worm today, and wow...The Bolivians and Blues got crazy for this stuff!!!
All the other fish have had those freeze dried bloodworms before but they float so the rams never got any.

The female in particular is loving them...She's been charging around the tank searching for precious bloodworms, Lol.

Thanks for the feeding tips guys.


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## demonsoni

thanx


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## blairo1

*CiChLiD LoVeR128* did you see my little switching to sand post I made?


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

Yep I printed it off! thanks!


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## blairo1

Cool beans, just wanted to make sure it wasn't buried and you weren't pulling hair out :lol:


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## CiChLiD LoVeR128

Thanks!


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## mbunaferd

Hello All

Just thought I would share two of my rams with you. Forgive me...the pictures are a little blurry.
I will get it together in getting shots of them though. Plus a shot of my tank that I have all 6 of them in.

Enjoy, 
Mbunaferd


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## Beats

Great layout, Mbunaferd !!
I like that bambooish plant you have on both sides of the tank !! :thumb: 
It kind of gives it an Oriental look!!


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## mbunaferd

Thank You for the compliments Beats!!!

I appreciate it!!!!! Actually those bamboo plants are plastic, but I thought they would look good till my pennywort grows in its place


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## blairo1

I think it looks really nice *mbunaferd*, you did a great job and I'll bet the fish like it.

Are you open to suggestions? :lol:


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## mbunaferd

Of course Blairo, that is why we are all apart of this great forum!!!!

Fire Away!

Mbunaferd!


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## justflow1983

here's a couple pics of my two rams growing up... The smaller one is actually more colorful but I couldn't get a decent pic of it by itself. I'm pretty sure they're both males, but they're getting along pretty well and I don't care if they breed so I'm gonna leave it like that. I'm just in the process of getting them on NLS so they should color up more in the next few weeks.


__
https://flic.kr/p/457918755


__
https://flic.kr/p/457918753

Take care everyone


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## blairo1

*mbunaferd* it's nothing really, just TO ME the plants on the back left and right make the tank look a little symmetrical.

I really like those driftwood pieces so your going to be the medium for my experiment lol (if you don't want to, just tell me where to go  ). I had a thought about what I would try if I had that tank (because I'm always looking at my own tanks and thinking, hmmmmm :roll: ) and figured why not ask what you think about it/if you've tried it differently.

I will add at this stage that I am always open to suggestions on my tanks, go to town, constructive criticism and feedback are what it's all about people, it makes you think of things you would otherwise never have tried.... :thumb:

So if you're willing, let's see what it'd look like (please don't take offense, I really like your tank, it's just I saw the driftwood and it went HELLLLO lol.)

Ok.










A.
I'd move this piece to just about where the tip of the arrow is in the pic (maybe not quite so far). I just think it will help shift the weight from the center, balanced with left and right sides, to make it a little "heavier" on one side. We read left to right so I usually try to make the left side denser, going sparser on the right as, purely IMO, it feels more flowing.

B.
Right here I'd plant something nice and fast growing and that fills up some space, maybe Hygrophilia. I think it would blend quite well and add a bit more lively green to the tank, it's a good choice IMO because it really spreads out, so you have relative ease at keeping the mid and upper levels of the tank populated as well (no open "sky").

C.
Leave it where it is, just take the left hand side and swivel it towards the back pane so that it's at a 50 degree (ish) angle from the front pane, maybe a bit shallower, this leads on to....

D.
Which I'd move so that it's further over, pretty much where the left side of C. used to be. Literally 2-3 inches to the right, that's it.

I'd add a slight angle to the one on the left and a small plant in the left foreground (think Cryptocoryne wendtii....)

And uh, that about wraps it up. By this point you're thinking, dude, why not just rearrange my whole tank ! Well to me that's just a minor change :lol:.

It's more that I'm curious to see what it'd look like than anything, hope I haven't offended you at all :? !

Oh yeah and I like the substrate, what is that?

:thumb:
Blair.


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## blairo1

*justflow1983* you have healthy looking Rams.... Great stuff :thumb:.

Re NLS, I wouldn't expect to see massive colour enhancement, it lends itself more to improving your fishes health and keeping it there by providing them with a balanced and nutritious diet. This in itself will generally lead to the fish having better colouration and IMO is far better than using something to "enhance" their colours through other means....

.

Thanks for sharing!


----------



## justflow1983

Sounds good to me, Healthy fish = Nice to look at. Nice call Blairo on the left to right thing on ferd's setup, people are definitely responsive to those sort of subtleties. I would also try to fill in the rear of the tank with plants more evenly, even if you have a background, having some more plants there will give it a lot of depth and make it look like it just keeps going that direction.


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## mbunaferd

Hmmm Blairo...

Those suggestions sound cool!!!!!!! Thanx I will try your movements today, and repost the pictures. I felt that my tank was a bit off in placement of plants and driftwood. So I am really going to follow your sugggestions.

Also thanks for the illustration!!!!

Don't feel anyway in offering help, or critiques. I know all about it (I used to go to art school) 

That is the great thing about this forum. We are all here to help each other!!!

Thanx Blairo, and I will get back to you later today!!!!


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## blairo1

Good sport! lol.

I look forward to the pics, it might well look like crud (my idea) but it might get you to move a piece and then suddenly it can become obvious where you want the rest to go.....

:thumb:


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## musho3210

i got 2 young ones, i am pretty sure they can be called a pair, rarely you see them not swimming together. No eggs yet though. Got them last week


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## blairo1

Thought I'd just put up a shot of my male giving me some aggro whilst I'm trying to take photo's, a bit bleached out with the flash but it's made him sparkle. I just love it when they puff up their gills at you.

_*All are clickable thumbnails, click to enlarge!:*_


I figure if you like Bolivians you're probably a fan of German Blue's, here's a couple of shots of my female:



Amano Shrimp - algae patrol for my German Ram tank, I think the Bolivians would have a go at eating these though :? :


Finally, Ruurd you may want to know how they're doing - my P. Taeniatus Dehane male and Female have spawned again and they are looking really nice at the moment. Hard to get a pic of the female as she is forever guarding eggs but this is the male now:


I will have to get some shots of their last batch of fry as they are really looking set to be stunners, there are 3 or 4 males that should make their dad look plain.... .

Just to note, I have to do the actual numbers but it looks like I got about 40% males to 60% females in my conditions:
pH 5.5 KH 2 GH 6, Temp stable 25C.

On their next spawn I want to increase the temp a little and see what effect it has if any. Then after that I'm going to reacclimatise them to a pH of 6.5-7.0 to see what effect pH has on their spawns......

Anyone else documented anything like this with their fish, Cathy I know you have mentioned something along these lines to me before RE Bolivians (and German Rams?), I think it might be interesting to just bring that up here for people to read..... 

Cheers all!

Oh I couldn't leave my Rotkeil out, I love him to bits and he's finally lost his shyness and takes pellets gently from the tip of my finger   . What a dude!!

Blair.


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## blairo1

Wow, nobody responded, I guess you're all on holiday/asleep.....?

Keep the movement alive you slackers!!!!

:lol:

Just to let you all know I currently have about 150 German Ram babies, free-swimming at this stage and staying with their parents. This is their second spawn now, first one got eaten (who knows by) and she layed about 75 eggs, this time they really blew me away. I don't know how so many eggs come from such a small female. But boy are they fertile.

Both parents showing *very* strong instinct to guard their fry, this is technically their first time with free swimmers and they are doing just swell at collecting them all up, spitting them back together and keeping the 3 rummy nose tetra's away.

I don't think I have fry eaters here, we will see how they go....

:thumb:

Hope you're all well!

Blair.


----------



## Dutch Dude

Hey Blair. Congratulations with the Ram fry!!! So they are doing fine and turn out to be very protective parents! That good :thumb: I hope you will have some luck with the fry and they grow out to be perfect fish like their mom and dad! Mom and dad changed a bit in time and became very beautiful strong colored fish!

The P. Taeniatus did spawned again?! Wow,....they surely are fertile, haha! I'm curious at the first batch of youngsters and hopefully you can add a pic of them.

Do you keep us updated on the Ram fry? I hope they do well! See yah later bud :wink:


----------



## Beats

Hi! Blair!! 
Your photos are always soooooo :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Sorry, I haven't been around that much....I've been kind of busy..... 

My Bolivian Ram pal ,here in Japan was having tank problems in his home (When you have a number of tanks, I guess it sometimes causes controversies, when the family you live with aren't into fish).  All his fish tanks were going to get kicked outside of the house..... :x 
So, I been busy trying to fugure out ways and giving out ideas so he could keep at least some of his tanks inside the house. 
(I'm happy to report that) In the end, against all odds, we (or I should say he) managed to keep 2 big tanks indoors and his Bolivian Rams and German Rams are safe inside the house, :thumb: and with the additional plants layed out nicely in his tank, his family member decided that she liked the tank!! :thumb: and even the fish that were inside!! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

And on top of that, my brother who works abroad is coming back to Japan for a week.  
He arrives today (Friday - right now it's 4:15am or here). And, since I'm using his bedroom as my tank room, I had to clean up my bedroom, so that he can have some comfort when he returns... :lol:

And on top of that...., 
I just experienced something that was    in one of my Bolivian Ram tanks.....

My Bolivian Rams have grown since I last put up pics, but their still small, right.... 
BUT, I found out that in one of my tanks, my Bolivian Rams actually ATE MY ENDLERS!! 

The Endlers that I put in their tank were not my good ones, so they would've been feed to my JDs, so there's no harm done, but I really didn't expect them to eat my Endlers at their size!!

I was surching around the tank, going through all the plants, etc, but only found one alive and another dead without a head.... I checked my water just to be sure, that they didn't just die and disintegrate, but the water was A:0 N:0 N:between 5 to 10 and my Bolivians and otos are in great shape!!

Now, I will have to take Lips (my deformed female) to the LFS to be kept in their display tank for sure... The only tank that I can put her in at the moment is the Endlers&Cory tank, which has my top grade Endlers in it...
and I can NOT let her eat them up!!!!!
Well she could try sharing a tank with my Queen Imperial Tiger Plecos, but their tank is just big enough for them selves right now...(although that will change in a month), so I don't know, but right now, I'm thinking better be safe than sorry... 

It's not that I was on vacation or anything.... I was just doing lots of cleaning, and lots of thinking and in the end being shocked by my Bolivian Rams! :lol: I didn't know that a small sized Bolivan Ram had such a big mouth... :lol:

Aggghhhh.... your German Rams are soooo pretty.... now, I'm want some......
But, right now, I have no space.... Maybe once I find a nice home for my female JD, I'll get some!! As of now I already have 3 big tanks (one for Oscar, one for female JD and the big one for my male JD is coming ), if I could somehow make this 2, I will have more options for my Bolivian Rams future tanks, and room for German Rams as well!! 
...but, even so, my PH is sooo high, I'll have to use peat, or something.... PH is around 7.7 in all my tanks, so even if they breed I don't think that the eggs will hatch....    
So, I think I'll enjoy everyone elese German Rams in the mean time.

Anyway, GREAT pics!!! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


----------



## blairo1

Hey thanks guys, wow, *Beats* you sure have been busy! :lol:.

Sounds pretty crazy. I don't understand people who don't understand fish. We just seem to talk different languages..... Sounds like you guys managed to resolve it a lot more calmly than I would have!! lol.

Anyway I've just taken a whole bunch of shots of the German Blues with their fry, the Taeniatus fry and a few assorted other tankmates that I will post up in a while for you! I hope you like the pics, I got a couple of my favourite male, females are harder to catch as they are camera shy. There is a male with a red streak on his cheeks and very intense red colouration but he is so shy at the moment I had no chance at taking a photo . He is my 2nd favourite out of the lot.

Those will be up in an hour or two if you're interested....

I'm really itching for these German Blues to grow so I can move the Taeniatus on (apart from the choice pair I will keep) and move them into the Planted Grow Out, as I am calling it.... See in My Tanks for info.... I want to get my Bolivian pair in the breeding tank next, it's time to raise their fry after the German Blues have their turn....

It's all go with my plans....

Might go get some wood tomorrow. I'm going to build me a (basic for now) practice stand for one of my smaller tanks - it's currently on the floor in my lounge (aesthetics don't bother me, water volume does.) I don't have any fancy tools so it's me, my work bench, vice, level, pencil, tape measure and hand saw..... should be fun.

8)


----------



## blairo1

Well, pics first I guess!

Hard to get good shots of the fry without the flash knocking out their colour but who cares, you can see what's happening:

*All are clickable thumbnails, click to enlarge!*
Pelvicachromis Taeniatus, approx 10 weeks now.



Amano Shrimp:



Sumatran Goby:


Cory:


German Blue Ram Fry:




Finally a video of the GBR's with their fry:
http://s100.photobucket.com/albums/m15/ ... GBRFRY.flv

Let me know what you think!
Blair.


----------



## ChrisWalker

Hi guys...Glad to hear everyone's fish are ok...

Blair, wonderful to see some new pics...You have a knack for getting those shots.

Anyway, sadly I lost my male blue ram the other day from "unknown causes". The bolivians however are looking as perky as ever.

Thought I'd share this with you guys, just a quick caricature of my pair ...Any of you guys artists?


----------



## blairo1

:lol: That's cool, I want one done of my fish!!!!

One of my Taeniatus Dehane male all gothic and sweeping long fins would look awesome. If only I could draw (I suck at drawing).....


----------



## Dutch Dude

Beats,....you're Bolivians ate the endlers???????? Never heard such a thing befor of Bolivians!!! I'm stunned!

Blair,.....I thought building a practice stand is a good reason to buy some fancy tools, hahaha??? I'm very curious at that project! Are you going to put you're plans abouth the stand on the DIY section?

The Pelvicachromis (in Dutch cherry belly's :lol: ) are amazing!!!!! Wow they grow like mads and when I see the pics I could hardly believe it were that 10 week old fry!!!! I would have liked that the Bolivian fry would grow that fast but they go realy slowly right now!

What a wonderful sight those 2 small Rams with all that tiny fish surrounding! They are realy incredibly small and its a big bunch!!! I hope they won't eat the fry!

Chris,....Sorry to hear of the lost of the male Ram! I hear a lot of "on explained" deaths of Rams. As for as I know mostly the cause is protozoa parasites. Did you treat the fish against that when you bought them? Cathy and probably Blair to have a good treatment for those protozoa. I assume you will look for a new male? Bolivians are much hardyer and IMO a good fish for beginners. They can handle a lot more than the Rams. Nice drawing and you're female Bolivians even put lipstick on for the occasion! She does look a lot like the female of Beats (called "Lips"). I'm no artist but,...Cathy (Katie Rose) is!!! Did you visited her site already?

Talk to you soon guys :thumb:


----------



## justflow1983

Chris: great drawing, I really like it. Definitely need to put a little aggro in one, maybe a male flaring like a badass.

Blair: The secret to good woodworking is a good table saw. If you get a portable you don't need that much space, and with a good fence you'll be able to make many straight, controlled cuts. I just bought a fairly good one for $550 US so they're expensive but not outrageous, and its really the central tool to carpentry. Just be careful =)


----------



## blairo1

:lol: Thanks guys.

Wood doesn't bother me, I'm a tree surgeon, but I also do landscaping/fencing etc so I get to "play" with tools all the time. I just have more fun doing it ghetto style :lol:.I like seeing what I can do with the most basic stuff. I mean building a stand for a 30 isn't any huge task, so I might as well have some fun doing it right!! :lol:


----------



## justflow1983

True enough, a 30 should be pretty simple. Enjoy then! I had a project once where we had to take raw scrap wood from a tree and turn it into dimension lumber and then make a piece of "wearable furniture", it was a pain in the butt, but very meditative.


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## blairo1

:lol: Meditative, that's one word for it......


----------



## Kelzan

Hello all,

Right now i have 4 Bolivian Rams, and they are deffinitely one of the neatest fish i have owned. They are just hilarious at feeding time.

I have not looked through this whole thread, but i am curious to know is it possible to tell if they are male/female just by looking at them? I have one that has the 2 long strands? coming off the end of it's tail, and the other 3 don't. Also 3 of them seem to have wider tails then the other one. Could any of this be factors into what sex they are?

Thanks.


----------



## blairo1

:lol: Well there I am making a point in another thread about my sexing post being made a sticky..... and here you are asking for just that.....

Sigh..



blairo1 said:


> Hey sorry I forgot to post that sexing lesson I did. Gotta go find it because it's buried.
> 
> IF ONLY THEY'D STICKY IT in the SA section so I don't have to keep pulling it up. It's obviously something of interest, but I don't think the Admin likes me or (certainly seems that way) as I just get ignored.....
> 
> Oh well, I can only try and help!
> 
> 
> 
> blairo1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Until then let me try and help you out in determining sex. Take into account the only real way of knowing is venting them or seeing them spawn, the other details I will show you are just generalisations of what you would expect in differences between the sexes....
> 
> First up, ventrical differences:
> _click to enlarge:_
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how the males vent tapers back and is considerably smaller whereas the females points more downwards and is visibly fatter.
> 
> You can also see the difference in the length and shape of the pelvic fins, although this is not a sure-fire way of telling it can be an indicator.
> 
> Picture A. is of a female, I'm pointing this out first as you can see here that the females dorsal looks similar to what one would expect from a male:
> 
> You can clearly see her extended ray on the dorsal fin. So I'm not saying this is a way to sex them. You can see for yourself that females too can express these predominantly male characteristics.
> 
> Picture B. is also of a female:
> 
> Here too you can see the extended pelvic fins that you could expect on a male....
> 
> Point made?
> 
> Now onto the comparisons (generalisations, whatever you want to call it.)
> With that said, picture C. is of a male - you can clearly see the extended 3rd and 4th rays on his dorsal fin:
> 
> 
> Picture D. shows a "typical" female dorsal fin, you can see the progressive slope that I with no particular spine elongated.
> 
> 
> Picture E. shows a "typical" female head shot. You can see it is more rounded when compared to Picture F.
> 
> 
> Picture F. is the male head shot:
> 
> 
> Pic G. showing the extended rays on the Males tail fin:
> 
> 
> Pic H. shows the "typical" female tail and as you can see, even they can possess slightly extended rays:
> 
> 
> Like I said other than venting there is no guaranteed way of knowing, however the differences you can see above (however slight) can help.
> 
> Blair.
Click to expand...


----------



## Compressed

Thanks blairo..your post confirms that I most likely have 2 females out of my 5.


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## oxyoxymoron

Hey all.
I just joined the club today. I got 3 Bolivians at a steal (figurtively)- 1.99 US$ each! The LFS messed up and charged my the same price for them as the two corkscrew vals i also was getting. :lol: 
Theyre a nice size, and are doing fine in my planted 29 gal
the only problem is, they were pretty washed out at the LFS, and i think that is due to thier diet. Now that i have them, anyone know what the best diet is to get their color up?

These little fish are awsome, best *** ever kept


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## blairo1

I feed mine NLS as a staple diet. You must have seen my fish at some point..... I think it says it all.

Occassionally I will supplement them with a live (actual live not frozen) food once every 2 weeks. This really keeps them healthy.

Washed out colours can be a variety of reasons. Such as, if the light is too strong, temp is too cool/too warm, pH is too high/very hard water, not enough decoration, preferably in the form of plants and driftwood and the obvious, stress.

NLS will not make you think wow those colours have suddenly come out, what it will do is make your fish healthier and healthier until it's colours are naturally vibrant. My male just seems to get nicer every month....... I'd rather this than feed them a colour enhancing feed.....

Health first and foremost.

Blair.


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## ChrisWalker

The fish in fish stores always look washed out. It's why I believe that bolivian rams are often over looked in favour of blue rams. In fish stores bolivian rams often look pale, with little or no yellow on them...Often they have the stress markings out making them look even more grey/black...

People probably don't know how amazing they look once they've had them in stable conditions and on a good diet for a while.

I feed mine KingBritish catfish pellets and tropical fish mini pellets, TetraPrima sinking food, and frozen bloodworm/daphnia. Rams go ape**** for bloodworm lol.

Blair, forgive my ignorance but what exactly is NLS???


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## blairo1

New Life Spectrum 

http://www.feedmyfish.co.uk/index.php?o ... 1&Itemid=1

It's awesome.


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## Dutch Dude

I feed them several foods and believe a various diet is benefit their health. They are close relatives to the Geophagus and for that need some protein rich food every once in a while. The main food I feed are small discus pellets and they get those every day. Besides that I feed, high quality flakes, shrimp pellets, algea wafers and frozen like Artemis, krill, chopped mussels or cockles.


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## blairo1

You see, if I wasn't so lazy I'd feed my fish like Ruurd does :lol:. Trust me.


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## musho3210

i feed them flakes, live adult brine shrimp, frozen brine shrimp, frozen blood/black worms, shrimp pellets, medicated fish food, algae wafers. They were washed out while at the lfs but now they are getting a bit better color wise. *** only had them for 2 weeks though so hopefully the color will continue to get better.


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## justflow1983

I took mine a month to color up really nice, and now they're gorgeous. I do NLS in the morning, and then randomly do NLS, good flake, frozen brine shrimp, or algae wafers in the evening. I do flake fairly often because I have some flame and x-ray tetras in as midwater fish and they don't handle the NLS so well. I also find that if my tank has some salt in it (2 tablespoons for the whole 29 gal) that my fish are brighter, but I don't know if thats the general finding around here.


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## Beats

Hi, ALL !! I'm back!! 
(my brother who works abroad, was back home for a week, and my wisdom teeth was :x  :x me...)

Blair,
Have you ever thought about becomeing a camera man? 
Your photos looks like they are from an aquarium photo collection book!!  
And all the models in the photos are your fish!! :thumb:

Chis,
I'm so sorry for your loss...  My Japanese Bolivian Ram pal, just lost his South East Asian bred German Ram, yesterday, too...  
I like your drawing!! You're a great artist!! :thumb:

Ruurd,
Yes, my pure wild blood endlers (TL:2cm) were too small to be dithers for my Bolivian Rams...
But, since they weren't my very best endlers  , ...as long as my Bolivians enjoyed them it's O.K.!! :lol:

So, we're talking about food, now!
I feed my Bolivian Rams, Hikari Discus, Tetra Angel, 2 other types of small sized pellets, Spilrina small pellets, Hikari frozen bloodworm, daphia, and brineshrimp. I'm planning on giving them some of my home bred Red Cherry Shirmp,too. 

The babies are currently 2mm to 4mm (0.08" to0.16") or so...


----------



## blairo1

:lol: Thanks bud.

I've got about 3 or 4 preggo Amano shrimps right now, seriously FAT. I don't think I've ever seen Amano shrimps get so darned big.

Well they're with the Taeniatus fry so undoubtedly that will do them wonders..... I might set up a 10 to put a few shrimp in to breed for snacks, mostly for my Rotkeil, but I'm sure all of my fish would appreciate some young shrimp.


----------



## Beats

Ahggggghhhhggggg!!!  :x  :x  
I must be the most horrible aquarist around!! :x

My Bolivian Ram (name： Phoenix & Charms) had layed eggs, and the eggs had already hatched by the time, I realized!!!  
They must have layed their eggs 3 days ago, since they were moving the fry from the place they hid their eggs....

I knew Phoenix and Charms were up to something at the back of the tank, but it was in the back corner, where I had lots of plants, so I didn't pay that much attention. I always checked the flat stones I had ready for them, just in case, but they didn't lay their eggs on a stone. They must have layed eggs on a leaf or something, since I just took out the blogwood to wash, yesterday.....  ...what a horrible aquarist..... :x 
I also didn't really think that they were big enough to spawn, yet...

I even took photos of them right before they decided to dig holes for their wrigglers, in front of the tank.

I just realized that they had their wrigglers in the hole, at the very front of the tank, after I put a narrow hose into the tank to get some uneaten food out.... And this seemed to have frightened Phoenix, and he ate half the fry.... 

There's still half (or quater) of them left..., but, I only have the rough sponges on the filter intakes. I'm going to somehow have to change that to a fine sponge, so that the fry won't get sucked up, once they start free swimming...
I'm too scared to even take a photo.......

I'm going to have to read Blair's thread again, to make sure I get everything correct...... (http://cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopi ... c&&start=0)

.....geeee......I really didn't expect this.....


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## Dutch Dude

Beats,...You what??? Feed the Bolivians you're cherry shrimp?!?!?! Mannn,..those cost a fortune over here!!! Oooh I definitely want some shrimps to in my future Bolivian tank (with a lot of shelter of course) and I find them very attractive in the past! You got a lot of youngsters over there!

Congratulations with the Bolivian fry!!! If they are free swimming they need to be fed and preferable live bbs. I hope every thing works out well and the fry left will be raised by the parents! No you're not a horrible aquarist haha! They can realy surprise you with eggs or fry on a spot in the tank you wouldn't expect. My oldies laid once a bunch of eggs on a big echinodorus leave. So they preferable lay their eggs on a flat stone but leaves and driftwood is a good alternative.


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## blairo1

My Bolivians actually prefer to lay on plant leaves.....

Go figure.


----------



## Beats

Hi!! 
Amazingly, I still have 1/2 or 1/4 or 1/5 of wigglers left!!!  
They seem to be doing well! Some are soooo full of energy, that they nearly wiggle out of the pit... :lol: 
Both parents are on guard, and they are taking turns to rest.

The photo's dark and color is a little weird, 
but the wigglers are in the little pit, right next to and a little under the stone, in the very front.
You can kind of see that there's a little darker colored something in the pit. 
They are the wigglers!!!  









Ruurd, 
Thank you!! I will start getting live BBS ready for the wigglers. I thought that they hatched yesterday, but since the wigglers are so active, maybe they are already getting ready to swim... :?

As for my Red Cherry Shrimp..., I have 2 small tanks of RCS, and they are breeding like there's not end to it!! :lol: 
So..., some (or half) of them can definatly be food!! 
Maybe, I should take them to the LFS or sell them on the web, but they really do breed like    !!

Blair,
Yes...., you get the flat stones ready for them, you get the blogwood ready for them, ....and what they choose..................A LEAF !! :lol:

I hope your Amano Shrimp do well!!! 
Once they start breeding, you'll have more than too many, and will be happy to let your fish have some !!!


----------



## Beats

Just a little update.

The fry are still ALIVE!!  
...and...
They can't swim, yet, but they have become very good at wiggling and half jumping, so Mom&
Dad are currenty busy, collecting them, and putting them back into the pit!!! :lol:

I hope it all works out!!


----------



## blairo1

Sounds good, keep us informed......


----------



## Dutch Dude

Hey Beats,

I'm happy to hear the wigglers are doing fine! They can become free swimming every moment now and you have to get some live food ready (bbs) If not i suggest to get some Hikari First Bites,....once they are used to it they love it and hard to get them on other dry foods. But the best food are the bbs.

So far so good! If you want to play save you can siphon some out and add those in a separate (small) tank. If not keep you're fingers crossed that the parents don't eat them!

Do you keep us informed?

Ruurd


----------



## Beats

Hi, Blair! Hi, Ruurd!! Thank you!! 
So far so good!! 

......and.....Yes, I'd like to keep you all posted..., but, as of now, there's really not that much change... :wink: 
The wigglers are hopping about, since they aren't in their free swimming stage, yet...
Well...., so there was a change!! 
They are now more like hoppers, than wigglers!! :lol: 
So, Mom & Dad are having a harder time, since the fry go hopping about everywhere, and they have to go around collecting them, to put them back in the pit... :lol: 
I've just started giving them some Brine Shirmp Egg Yoke, but the live BBS's being hatched as I write, so that the fry can chase them around once they start swimming!! 

I'm hoping to get the parents out into their new tank, once the fry don't need their protection. 
(While I was being a bad aquarist, not knowing that they had spawned, and just went around washing blogwood, sticking hose in to the tank to clean the left over food, etc....... I also put in my Queen Imperial Tiger Plecos as well, since my plan was to move the parents into their new tank, the next morning...... :roll: I didn't know that they were already parents then.... :roll: )

I've covered one of the filter intake part with fine sponge, and I've also added a sponge filter, in exchange for the internal filter, which I can't take out to cover, since it's very close to where the wigglers are. (I don't want to scare the parents too much! :lol: ) . But, I've made sure that the bacteria on the internal filter will not be lost.

I've tried taking a photo...., but with my little 5 year old camera this was the best that I could get...
The center blur are the wigglers (now hoppers)!!









I think they should start free swimming very soon!!  I'll post again, when they do!!


----------



## blairo1

8) 8) 8)


----------



## Beats

Hi! All!!
The wigglers are now swimmers!! 

The video quality is bad, and it seems to take a lot of time to load, but, here they are swimming!


----------



## Compressed

Just wanted to show my Bolivian's playground. They are starting to show signs of the mating dance..YAH!


----------



## mrlimpet

i'm a member of this club! 

congrats on your spawns. :wink:

i got my first bolivian rams back in october 2004. great community fish and very hardy.

had one spawn and only have 2 left from that spawn (rest were traded to lfs for supplies or sold at auction). currently have 5 total in two different tanks.

ram fry hanging out with bristlenose fry...









young male from that first spawn...


----------



## Beats

Compressed
Nice playground !! :thumb: 
Your Bolivians are starting to show signs of a mating dance! That's great!!  
I was like..., "Oh, yeah!! I think I might have a pair!!  ", ....then 2 days later "huh??? wigglers!?!  "..... :lol:

Mrlimpet
WOW!! Nice juvies!! :thumb: 
I hope my fry will grow up like yours!!  And your young male looks gorgeous!!  :thumb:

I had another BIG surprise yesterday...    
My 2 little pairs of Dutch rams, both layed eggs!!  
I just got them a little while ago, and I was keeping quiet about them, since I was worried they might die or something, because I've been hearing so many blue ram death stories.....  
I was going to announce that I got them, once I felt that they were O.K, ....BUT, the 2 pairs in two different tanks, both spawned yesterday, before I had a chance to say anything...!!  :lol:  
I've got photos and videos of them, so I'll post them later, after I take a look at all of them. (...I took so many, I haven't seen them all yet! :lol: )


----------



## Beats

Hi, ALL!

Here's a video of my juvie Dutch Rams spawning! 
The female is only about an 1" and the male slightly bigger.





And here's a pic of them and their eggs after they were done.









...BUT, this pair ate ALL their eggs, today!!  
Since, they are sooo small, they even looked cute, eating the eggs!! :lol: 
I'm sure they'll do better next time.... :wink: (hopefully, they'll learn... :wink: )

And here's a pic of my other pair of Dutch Rams (same size as the other pair) with their eggs!









The photo's not good, but you can see the eggs on top of the shelter, and the male guarding them.  
These two haven't eaten any eggs, yet, and they seem to be doing a good job, guarding and fanning!!  
...BUT, they seem to have forgotten (?) the part about eating the unfertile eggs...   
The unfertile eggs are starting to get fungus..., but since I don't want to interfere, yet, I am hoping that they will notice the fungus, and suddenly realize that they are supposed to eat them!! 
....Well...., if not...., I hope that the eggs will hatch before, ALL the eggs get fungus!! :lol:

And this last photo is a pic of one of my male Dutch Rams


----------



## blairo1

Lovely Rams Beats .


----------



## Beats

Thanks Blair!!  
Since they are Japanese bred Dutch Rams instead of South East Asian bred Dutch Rams, I'm hoping, that they won't have as many problems... So, far so GOOD!!  
The second pair, ate their eggs, too!!  :lol: 
But, since they are sooo small, I think the eggs would have given them good nutrition!!
I'm hoping, they'll do better next time, though!!


----------



## macclellan

Can anyone sex these? I've read several sexing guides, and am thinking they are the same sex...
Both males? #1 is nipping a lot at #2, so I'm getting worried.

#1








#1









#2








#2


----------



## blairo1

Number one I'd say male, number 2 looks more female. Be easier to see if you could get a clearer vent shot on number 2......


----------



## Dutch Dude

Verry nice tank compresed!!!! Looks like a Bolivian paradise!!! :thumb:

mrlimet,......nice youngsters and may I ask what their age was when that pic was taken? I noticed already yellow bellies.

Beats,....Hahaha,...Holland rams from everywhere,...except Holland! You told me but I didn't know there were Holland Rams! :lol: They are beatifull dough and congratulations with 2 couples with eggs and realy amazing they spawned at the same time! Unfortunately one couple ate the eggs but they once spawned and will spawn again! Lets hope for the best for that other couple! How are the Bolivian fry doing? Already free swimming?

macclelan,.....sorry but I don't want to give it a shot,.....It's very hard to tell with fish of that age. What is their size,....abouth one inch? I realy cant tell jet


----------



## macclellan

Dutch Dude said:


> macclelan,.....sorry but I don't want to give it a shot,.....It's very hard to tell with fish of that age. What is their size,....abouth one inch? I realy cant tell jet


No, they are way bigger than that. About 2.5 inches. Sorry, blair, she won't show me her bottom. :lol:

Here is a pic of them in a 20g for some perspective:


----------



## macclellan

Hey ChrisWalker, I hope you don't mind, but I made your caricature into a desktop (for personal use only). Here it is (inverted and boosted contrast):


----------



## Beats

macclellan,
I like that inverted color version of ChrisWalkers drawing, as much as I like his origial! :thumb:

Ruurd...,
Unfrotunatly, the second pair ate their eggs, too... 
At first, they didn't realize that they had to eat the unfertile eggs, so I was getting worried, but, during the night, realization must have struck them, and while they were eating the unfertile eggs, they probably got carried away!!  :roll: :lol: 
But, it's O.K. They're still juvies themselves, and probably learnt something for their next batch!! 

The Bolivian Ram Fry are doing GREAT!!  I think I have 40 or 50 of them. They started free swimming around 3 days ago, and they love their live BBS!! I can actually see their stomach turn orange from the BBS they're eating!! Mom and Dad are still very protective of them, so for now, they are still with the fry. I'm hoping that I'll be able to take mom & dad out of the tank, at the right timing!! 
Wish me luck!!


----------



## Spirou

Hello !

Here are some pictures of my rams too !


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## blairo1

The first and last pic are the same fish right!

Nice Rams, I do love the little guys.


----------



## Katie Rose

Nice fish Spirou... 
Cathy


----------



## Spirou

blairo1 said:


> The first and last pic are the same fish right!


Yes ! You're right ! :wink:


----------



## denverone

This question is for Spirou. What are you using for your substrate I really like the looks of it as I am one of these days going to set up my 29 gallon for some of these fish

Thanks Chad


----------



## Beats

Spirou!
Nice photos and beautiful fish, you've got there!! :thumb:


----------



## macclellan

OK, So here is a story that you BRC Members are going to love:

I posted with pics trying to get my 2 BR's sexed (on page 12 of this thread). Blair thought #1 was male and #2 female, but asked for a better vent shot. Well, I spent a looong time watching them, and comparing with blair's excellent sexing guide. I determined that both are in fact males. This explains why I had so much trouble ID'ing them a few months ago. I'd stare and stare and be like "they look exactly the same!" D'oh~ Here are the vent shots:

#1









#2









I also knew that I wanted a pair. #1 was actually bullying #2 a bit, and #2 looked to have better color potential, despite being smaller. SOoooo, I decided to take #1 to the LFS. While at the LFS, I saw that they had about 10 BRs. There were males and females, it was so easy to tell! I spent about a half hour sexing them. Turns out I didn't have the gumption to turn in #1 due to the conditions the fish wree in. :roll: Buuuuut, the BR's were on sale for $3.00!!!!  So, I picked out what I think is a nice, fat female and took her home with me. 

I put #1 into my 10g crypt jungle for the next two months until my new 90g is up and running. I put the new #3 in with #2. Boy o boy did #2 look colorful and excited. 8)










Here is a closeup of #3









Of course, please correct me if I'm wrong on the sexing! That would make the story even funnier! :lol:


----------



## Beats

Congratulations on your new femals, Macclellan!!  
Master Blair, will probably be here with you shortly, but as his student, I also think that the first 2 are both males, and the new members that you added, are females!! :thumb:


----------



## blairo1

:lol: Yeah, definately males the first two.

The new one you've added with Male #2 is 100% female, so you did well :thumb: .

She looks ready to spawn soon, as soon as her colours come back on you watch........

Oh and just an FYI guys and gals, my Bolivians are still spawning about once every week, it's very frustrating for them (and me) so once the pelvicachromis fry are out the Bolivians are moving into that tank to raise some fry in.

Basically I want offspring of my male ASAP!!!!! I'm really worried because he is pretty special and God forbid something happened to him before I am able to tend a new generation of his genetics!!!!

Time for me, to get BR busy.......

Good job, *macclellan*. Glad to see my guide helped you out......

Blair.


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## demonsoni

sup members, i joined way back on page 2. Here is an update, see the before pic (page 2)









they are great little fish.


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## Dutch Dude

Macclelan,....I'm sorry that I didn't take enough time to look closely to the first pics,...... and Blair was right! The first 2 are definitely males and the 3th is a female. In the first pic they looked to me as younger fish but I was wrong. That second male is gorgeous and he has very strong colors! :thumb:

Beats,...sorry to hear the second pair Dutch eat their eggs to! But,...it was first spawn and they will spawn again and hopefully you will have some more luck the next time. Nice to hear the Bolivians do so well! Yes they love live bbs and the orange bellies is a good thing! Keep up the good work and do you keep us up-dated?

Ckohler,.....nice pair and the male has greath long trailers on his fins! :thumb: The female seem to be les happy,...is she always dark colored with a lot of black spots?


----------



## demonsoni

uhh she usually is not that dark, I just looked at her and she looks like the male. Maybe he stressed her out, or me with my incessant picture taking.


----------



## Beats

Ckohler
I really like the way your male has grown!! Looking really Good!! :thumb:

Ruurd
Thank you for your comment!! Yes, I think they've learnt something, so they will probably do a little better next time!! ...although, I'm not sure, when I'll get to see wigglers or free swimming fry!! :lol:

My second pair of Bolivian Rams are spawning as I write.
They started spawning at around 10:40pm (Japanese Time), just about 30 min ago.
I got some videos of them spawning, and here are 2 of them!! 











They are both about 33sec each, so you might have to wait a little while before you can see them.


----------



## Beats

They are done!! :thumb:

The stone that they layed their eggs on is orangish brown, so it's hard to see the eggs, but here are the pics!! 










different angle (Mama's looking a little tired...)









and here's one of proud Papa









I hope things will turn out good for them!


----------



## ChrisWalker

macclellan said:


> Hey ChrisWalker, I hope you don't mind, but I made your caricature into a desktop (for personal use only). Here it is (inverted and boosted contrast):


Hi Macclellan, no I don't mind at all, it looks better inverted 

**********

Well after seeing all you guys with your spawning bolivian rams I'm beginning to wonder what's wrong with mine, and if I'll ever get a spawn...A lot of your rams look quite a lot younger than mine, mine are over 3 inches long including the tail fin and still they haven't spawned. The male displays a lot but the female won't have any of it.

The tank is quite heavily planted with bogwood and they have numerous large flat surfaces and hidey places, but they always seem to concerned with when the next meal is coming.

The water quality is good and at 28 UK Gallons it's certainly big enough for them....

Maybe they're just destined to never spawn.


----------



## blairo1

You need to give them a high protein, high fat diet and nothing else for a few days to push them over the edge. Get yourself some live bloodworm and feed them this instead of flakes/pellets for 3 days running.

I feed mine, well, fed them, :lol: now they just won't stop, like this for 3/4 days, 3x a day.

On the last day don't feed them in the evening, ie lunch feed is the last one.

Then the next day give them the last bit of bloodworm in the morning and NO feed for the rest of that day.

If you have a male who likes a female and they are at spawning age then I'll bet you'll see them spawn that evening.

After that day fast return to your normal feeding cycle. This period has no effect on their weight or healthy IME as it is a short lived burst with fasting space inbetween to allow them to "clear out" their digestive system.... I WOULD not recommend you do it for more than 3 or 4 days every month otherwise you risk making your fish fat/unhealthy.

Blair.


----------



## Kjaer

Here a picture of one of mine: http://www.akvariesiden.dk/galleri_ny/p ... ?pid=22993
ANd one were he is spitting sand http://www.akvariesiden.dk/galleri_ny/p ... ?pid=22689
Wonderfull little fish


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## Beats

Nice pic and nice fish!! :thumb: 
I also like the way you have your blogwood and coconut shelter layed out!! :thumb:


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## Dutch Dude

Beats,....nice you're second pair allso spawned!!! lets hope for the best. Do you keep us posted?

Ckohler,....OK maybe she was a bit stressed by the camera or so and luckily not her normal colors 

Chris,....3 inch is a nice size and would be fully grown. What are the parameters of the tank (temp. PH, GH, KH) maybe a change in the parameters can set them to spawn just as some frozen foods like Blair does.

Kjaer,...nice fish and greath shot of the sand spitting Bolivian! :thumb:


----------



## ChrisWalker

Hi guys...

Blair and Beats...I regularly (every other day usually) feed them frozen Daphnia and bloodworm on top of Prima Pellets, King British Pellets and flakes etc... (never live). They have a pretty varied diet really.

The water params are, ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0-5, temp 27*C, PH 6.8-7.

Blair, I'll try giving them nothing but bloodworm for a few days.

I think the female just isn't enticed by the males display.


----------



## blairo1

That's because she isn't full of eggs yet and itching to lay.

When I fed them as treats I never saw any spawning action, some amount of interest from one of either parties but no success. The reason why the LIVE bloodworm diet has worked for me is because the excess fat and protein just seems to trigger the females (this has worked on 3 different females now) causes the female to develop eggs....

Every, single, time......... It makes such a difference and I see such big, healthy spawns after this, barely losing any eggs at all.

This method doesn't just work on my Bolivians, it also works on my Pelvicachromis, German Rams and when I had them Herotilapia's......

How many fish in the tank? M/F ratio's? This can make a difference. If the females have other females to compete with and only one male, they all gun for his attention........


----------



## Beats

I can really understand the male/female ratio, Blair is talking about!
I had 2 females (at one time 3) with my male in 2 different tanks, and in both tanks I got a pair!

I don't feed mine, live bloodworms, simply because I can't get hold of any, but just like you I do feed them frozen Daphnia, bloodworms, and brine shrimp, together with 4 diffent kind s of pellets.

Your water sounds great for Bolivian Rams!!

Maybe you could try what Blair has suggested regarding the live food, and if that doesn't work, maybe you could add a female or two?


----------



## ChrisWalker

Hi guys...Just got some new photos, thought I'd share.

Blair, now on day 2 of the Bloodworm only diet. One thing I can say is that all my fish, including the rams go ape **** for this stuff. It's insane.  We'll see how it goes.

Beats, another female isn't out of the question for the tank. It seems for the passed month my male has been quite aggressive to my female. She's fine because she's used to it, but another female may help diffuse the situation a little.

Ruurd, 3 inches is a good size i agree...Which again makes me wonder why they haven't spawned.

Anyway, photos!

First, the "playground"


























































Oh yeah, check out this little guy. New arrival as of the other week. He sure is energetic...Another ram who enjoys beating on his female counterpart sadly.









Final pic...My applesnail, appropriately named "Appley" lol....Anyway, just wondering, is it possible to clean his shell? Like with a toothbrush? Cus my otos keep trying to get on him lol.









Oh yeah, finally, do any of you guys have names for your Rams? The male is called Rameses I: Founder of the 19th Dynasty lol....And the girl goes by "Rameses II: The Great.


----------



## blairo1

Can you give me clear vent shots of each ram and label them so I know which is which, I seem to remember that we already determined that you do have male and female, but I'd like to be sure.

2 females with one male will always increase competition between females and they will try harder to be dominant, gaining the males attention, the dominant one is the stronger anyway and so they usually hit it off after a while of testing each other out.


----------



## ChrisWalker

Hi Blair. I've always been pretty sure they were male and female...The pics don't really do them justice but there are many clear differences.

I could only get a pic of the males vent. They thought it was feeding time, and so went crazy. Check out the older female pics for her vent...

Male.








Female.


----------



## blairo1

Oh yeah defo male and female there by the looks of things.......

Well keep trying, they'll get it eventually!


----------



## Dutch Dude

Chris,

You're water parameters are greath and a wonderful tank with great fish!!! :thumb:

I agree on Blair that you have a male and a female so no reason for them not to spawn. Eccept for more protein rich food some changes in water parameters can trigger them to! If the bloodworms don't work I suggest to bring down the temp to 25 degrees over a period of one week ( 2 steps of 1 Celsius). Let them get used to the lower temp for abouth 3 weeks or so and bring is up to the 27 again (over one week in steps of 1 Celsius). If you bring up the temp I suggest to add allso the blood worms to their diet.

The parents of my Bolivian fry did spawned always a few day's after a big water change (change in parameters).

I hope this helps.


----------



## ChrisWalker

Dutch dude, thanks for the temperature tip...I'll do it after next water change 

Oh yeah, I'm gonna have to correct something I said earlier....It seems my water is pH7.2!!!! I dunno what's pushed it up, maybe tap water has changed slightly since i last checked. Could this be what's stopping my Bolivians and blues exhibiting spawning behaviour?

Check this image out, it's mine from the Wikipedia article....This was in their old tank when the pH was 6.6....Check out the amount of yellow, they were always much closer in that tank, even though it was less than half the size of their new home. Maybe I need to bring it down. No chemicals though. Other suggestions welcome 










PS....In their old tank the water had about 10ppm Nitrate, now it has 0-5ppm. I'm assuming this has more an effect on plants than fish but just checking.


----------



## ChrisWalker

Hi guys...

Here's an update...I switched the substrate in my tank to sand, and it seems to have had a great effect on my two bolivians' behaviour. They're once again friendly with each other. I re-arranged the tank and created a specific area for them to spawn should they want to. And they've adopted it as their territory, so we'll see.

I also lost that other male blue ram, my second. Both to the same thing: mysterious Blue ram death syndrome. Within the space of a day he went from being fine to not. My female is still happy and healthier, happier now the male died because she's not getting beaten up constantly.

Anyway...All you ram breeders, do you keep them with a sand substrate? and how, if at all does it alter the PH?

PICS!

The new design:









My female blue ram in the bolivian's den:









My Ram trio, maybe someday my female blue will get a new parter.









Male caught mid "yawn":









Bolivian ram's mortal enemy!!! In his territory as he plans his attack from behind the sword plant :









And finally, the pair, being the friendliest I've seen them in a long time. Let's hope it continues. I can live without any spawnings as long as they stay friendly. Their colours have really come out now they're hanging out again:


----------



## blairo1

Looking good bud!

Sand helps, remember the name - _Microgeophagus_ - small earth eater. So they really do enjoy being able to sift through sand for food, in regards to breeding you will find them making deep pits all over the place which they will start taking bits of plant matter into for shelter and food when the fry come along.

This is the sort of behaviour that is missed without a sand substrate. You'll probably find that the rescape has given the female encouragement to fight back a little and after a rescape my pair usually start spawning. It seems to really excite them - new territories etc.

I've never really had or seen any buffering from "normal" sand substrates.

:thumb:


----------



## Freshy

Hi,

I have some questions to ask all the Bolivian rams bro/sis here..

- what is the growth rate of this ram?
- what size are they consider sexually mature?

I just bought four small rams - 1.5" TL - possible to sex them now?

Thanks!


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## Regulatorocks

dope lookin tank...i really want a blue ram now...


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## ChrisWalker

Blair: The reason I ask about the sand is because my goldfish tank has a PH of 6.6-6.8. And the tropical tank is 7.0-7.2. I don't get it, same water, same bogwood. The tropical tank has 3 pieces of wood in it and there are tannins, but no change in PH. Wierd. It doesn't bother me too much, i just don't understand it.

Freshy: Bolivian rams don't grow fairly fast. Mine were about 1.5" when I got them 7-8 months ago and they're a full 3 inches (including tail) now, and still growing. I think they are sexually mature pretty quickly, I would imagine yours are at 1.5". - but I'm not sure...One of the experts should be able to tell you more.

You should look at Blair's thread about sexing them. I know I personally, and a lot of other guys here can walk into a shop and sex every single one, but you have to know what to look for. So check his thread http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=142702.

Regulatorrocks: Thanks for the compliment, blue rams are cool, but IME quite aggressive and very delicate. Check this pic of my lil girl.


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## Dutch Dude

Nice tank Chris!!!! Looks good and nice and healthy fish to! :thumb:

Sand can contain a amounth of calcium and it can buffer. So the sand could be the reason for the higher PH. But 7.0 to 7.2 is nice for Bolivians so no problem :thumb:

Freshy,......Mostly they can be sexed at that size but it is hard to see and a mistake can be made. If the threat of Blair doesn't work for you, than I suggest to put some good sharp close-up pics of the fish on here so we can sex them for you. The pics have to be in focus and taken from the side so we can see the vent and the shape of the body and fin.
They can spawn for the first time at an age of abouth 8 months. So you probably got abouth 3 to 4 months to go. Bolivians do grow very slow and it will take abouth a year befor they are full grown. Yours should be abouth 4 to 5 months now.


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## Miwok

Why Bolivian and not german ?


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## andrew__

Just got some bolivian rams on tuesday and I love the little guys! I've got a breeding pair (sold as, haven't bred yet for me as I've only had them since Tuesday... but I trust the guy I bought them from).

here they were the night I got them just a bit after getting them into the tank:










I've got them in my 38gal with a pair of angels, 6 corys, 3 bn plec babies (1" and smaller) and 12 lemon tetras with no agression problems (I've got other tanks to move fish around in if there are problems) but I do need some advice on feeding... I'm also thinking about moving all my other fish out and getting 5-7 rams for the tank instead... but that I think will have to wait 

I've got 1mm NLS sinking pellets, flake and shrimp pellets (for my corys). it might just be that they aren't comfortable in the tank but these two have only eaten a little bit since I got them (mostly flake they find on the bottom). I was just wondering what a good way to make sure they're getting enough with the tankmates listed above and these foods...

Also: Blair - those are some amazingly coloured rams back on page 6! If I can get my rams to look even half as nice as yours... :thumb:


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## Over_Stocked

Try bloodworms. That usually gets them going just fine. Mine would attack frozen blood worm... it was hillarious. I had to scrape bloodworms from my lights.


----------



## andrew__

Over_Stocked said:


> Try bloodworms. That usually gets them going just fine. Mine would attack frozen blood worm... it was hillarious. I had to scrape bloodworms from my lights.


I'll pick some up and see how that works for them.

I had a bit more luck with NLS tonight, though only picking it up off the bottom where the pellets my angels missed landed. presumably my corys will find the rest.


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## blairo1

*andrew__*,

Thanks for your kind words.

FYI - my Bolivian Rams only eat the NLS by picking it from the substrate, this seems to be their preferred means of feeding and ties in with their foraging behaviour. This is also why I like sand as it lets them do this without the NLS sinking into the substrate. So don't be concerned that they are not actively chasing down pellets, as long as they are picking at it from the substrate and eating that way then you're doing ok.


----------



## moua

check out my rams


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## macclellan

What size is that tank? 20g tall? That looks like way, way too many rams for that footprint.

Just a guess, but was that an African tank in the past?


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## blairo1

*moua*

How long has this tank been set up?
What are your male to female ratio's?
What are the actual numbers (stocking)?
What are the tank dimensions?

First impression - not enough footprint, nowhere near enough for the amount of Rams I can see(7). Seven Rams should be in a tank 40 gallons and up, just to put that into perspective.

Second impression, not enough segregated and individual area's for territory that can be easily defended and generally undisturbed - the fish are always going to be right near each other.

Third impression - tank looks nice, fish look nice, need a bigger tank OR less fish and preferably some plants.

:wink:


----------



## Jkook

I was keeping Bolivian Rams for 3 years and had 3 generations. The decendants are still being passed around my club. I like the "attitude" of the Bolivian Rams as opposed to the Venezualian Blue Rams. The first pair where kept in a 10 gallon plant tank. When I got them I was having a hard time finding females. I sex them by looking for the female's ovipositor and finnage, but the ovipositor is the best method. I was also breeding ansistris brushy nose plecos in this tank. Cories and glo-lite tetras were spawning, but I had no luck raising fry. I also spawned and raised guppies and platies in this tank I had great water for the S. Americans.

I would feed flake and frozen mysis, and daphnia, live daphnia and mosquito larva.

The pH was 6 to 6.3 and the hardness was less than 10 degrees. The tap water is very soft here and comes out pH of 7 then drops to 4.5 in a couple of days with out a RO buffer, I used Marc Weis RO Vital at a rate of .5 teaspoon per 5 gallons. I perfromed 25% water changes every 3 days. I kept the temp at 80 degrees. Dropped to 76 degrees for 2-3 weeks then a 50 % waterchange and raise temp to 80-82 degrees to induce spawning. They spawned in a flower pot on its side and the female primarily took the duties of fanning eggs, when they hatched she would move them to a corner and the male could care less. I feed micro worms and liquid fry food. When they were about a quarter of an inch I would move them to a grow out tank and at a half to 3/4 inch I would sell them in auction. In the2nd and 3rd Generation I breed them for the side spot to be 2 spots, this mutation was about 25% of the spawn.

They original pair was 3 inches w/o tail when I sold them.

I was breeding the Blue Rams (Chech breed) for a while. Had a hard time feeding the fry as I did not have the time to keep a good infrusorian culture or rotifer culture. They spawned every other week and I could sell them easier than the Bolivian Rams, but like I said the attitude of the Bolivians made me a fan of Bolivians.


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## blairo1

Hey *Jkook*, welcome to the club!

Do you have any pics. :lol:

Interesting that you bred them to have two spots, I actually much prefer the single, solid diamond shaped spot. I had two-spot females before but chose not to breed them. What attracted you to the two spot variety, I've generally noticed that the twospots and the single spots have quite a difference between them. I particularly noticed this with their scale patterning.

The definately do have a personality don't they, still my favourite fish, I never get tired of interacting with them and have just moved my pair to their own 55 gallon for breeding antics.

Male:









Female:









I've actually done an article on sexing them with clear, close-up shots and it will be in the Profiles section of this website along with an article Dutch Dude and I have been working on. Unfortunately I had a hard drive failure so I'm at square one again (only with the article, not the sexing guide thank god). But that should prove useful to those sexing these fish, particularly at a younger age.

If you have any interesting experiences whilst you were breeding them we'd love to hear about it, as well as male to female ratio's in your parameters etc - this is all very useful in helping build a better idea and understanding of these fish.

:thumb:


----------



## Jkook

No pics. Sorry, I have never been able to take photos of my fish (no patience on my part).

The 2 spot was just something that was different and added intrest to the pattern of the fish. I know that there are what are known as the 2 spot race which comes from an area where not many fish exported from. These have a spot at the base of the tail.

My B. Rams never spawned on top of a rock like the blues do. The laid on the bottom to one side of a 1/2 quart clay pot. :-?

I have read that hardness and pH effect sex ratio (harder the water the less females). I have soft water so I had a ratio more or less 50/50 (this was dependant on recent rainfall in my area as the municipal water supply is from a river that is very soft and the watershed contains a number of pine swamps and contains a high concentration of iron and tanic acid. So when there was a lot of rain the water was even softer. (naturally soft water is not just good for keeping Amazonian fish, but is great for taking a shower as one gets nice and sudsy, plus not pesty calcium deposits to clean off the faucet and shower!)

I recently got divorced and all my tanks were dismantled last year, all my livestock were sold in auctions and to the LFS. I have since moved and have 1 tank up now, a 30 gallon Tanganykian tank (my first) w/ Neolamp. gracilis and Synodontis petricola. (I have always been in love with a tank that contained an breading colony of Brichardi) I will be setting up a 55 to 90 gallon S. American tank. The plan is wild Peruvian Altums angels (really Sclare), schools of cardinal tetras. farawella cats, Apistograma sp. and Bolivian Rams (I will try to get the 2 spot race), with lots of plants!


----------



## blairo1

Ah, a spot near the tail rather than side by side on the fish. Well now that is something I would like to see!

Good to hear your water is nice and soft, that's a harsh drop off though!!

That's a shame you had to get rid of all that stuff, probably the least of your worries at the time huh! Well there's always time to rebuild . I'm really interested to know more about your two spot variety so if you do get a chance or know someone who can, some photo's would be really useful!

:thumb:


----------



## moua

blairo1

the tank has been running for about seven months, as for the male and female ratio, i know i have three males, two feamales, and two subadults, however, i don't intend to have them breed. There are seven rams, one pleco, and one climbing perch. i agree a twenty gal is a little small, but they seem fine. i'll be moving them to a 29 gal later next month, and moving my climbing perch into my 60 gal when it hits the five inch mark.


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## blairo1

Well as they move to the 30 gallon they might be ok, problem is - you might not intend to breed them, but that's not going to stop them breeding. I imagine that when you move them to the 30 gallon you will almost inevitably end up with a pair breeding. Just watch how the aggression goes and be prepared to make changes! Personally I'd keep 1m/4f or 2m/3f in a 30, intended breeding or not this is just a good ratio and helps disperse and minimize aggression...


----------



## Jkook

This is what I read from the book "S. American Dwarf Cichlids" by Hans J. Wayland and Dieter Bork published by Verlog A. C. S. in Germany, publisher of the Aqualog series.

The 2 spot race is from the Brazillian state of Mato Grosso in the river Rio Pindaituba part of the network of the Rip Guapore.

There is 1 photo in this book and there are quite a few in the Aqualog S. American Dwarf Cichlid booklet.

:thumb: The photos show red blended into the dorsal fin, not just the edges. Real cool looking.

It seems that the newly discovered SA cichlids are imported to Germany first. Blairo, you are closer to Germany so you probobly would have good luck in obtaining some.


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## blairo1

> Blairo, you are closer to Germany so you probobly would have good luck in obtaining some.


  Already looking into it :lol:.

Thanks for the info on the books containing this fish, I'll have to look into that too.

:thumb:


----------



## edburress

I am new to this forum, and just wanted to share some fotos of my BRs. I have two pairs, this is dominant my pair.








another pic of my pair








the male displaying a little bit.








i think he likes her.









thanks,

Ed


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## spyder-CT

I have a 300 gallon with 7 pairs and a 180 with 3 pairs. I had 160 Rams but have sold most to LFS's and at local auctions. They are a favorite and a fish I will always have in my tanks.

Pics


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## blairo1

Welcome to the club guys!

:thumb:


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## Dutch Dude

Nice fish guy's and good to have new Bolivian addicts joining the club :wink:


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## andrew__

Just a new pic or two now that they've settled into my tank (and I've gotten new batteries for my camera :roll: )



















and a big pic with both my rams and my female silver angel


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## Dutch Dude

Hi Andrew. Good looking fish and they begin to develop filaments. Andrew,...did you noticed the little black dots all over their body? That's a stress sign. They are just in a new tank? May I ask what the temp, PH, KH and GH are?


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## andrew__

On the male they are only sometimes visible, the female shows them pretty much all the time. the temperature is around 77-78, pH 7.2 & unsure about KH and GH (hard water but filtered through peat). The tank has been running a few months but I only added these guys a little bit over two weeks ago. No one is picking on them but the female is about the smallest fish in the tank (about the same as the larger tetras I have). Do you think I should move the pair to my 15gal where they would be the only fish in the tank or give them more time in the big tank?


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## Dutch Dude

Hmmm,....I can see no reasons why the small female shows the stress sign. Sometimes they do if the lighting just put on but in normal circumstances they should not have the black spots. As for the water parameters you mentioned,...they are just fine. I would suggest to measure the KH and GH as well just to make sure.

There is always a fish at the lower side of the picking order and probably it is you're small female. They should be fine in the big tank. I would rather keep them in a larger tank than in a 15 gallon but it is doable.

How abouth the decorating of the tank? Are there enough hiding places and teritorial markers like stones and driftwood? Oooh,...and they don't like heavy lighting.

Ruurd


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## andrew__

lighting is fairly low (for a planted tank) with two 20W strips (1W/gal) if I can remember to put the second strip on after feeding.










I was going to be rescaping the right side today, I could try to include more of a cave like area there for her to hide in if she needs it. right now she spends most of her time (aside from when she's watching me at the front of the glass) around the anubias/crypt area. It might just be that she's the smallest fish in the tank. I'll try a bit of a rescape and see if that helps (a hot day like today and nothing's more appealing than playing in a large tank of water :wink: )


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## andrew__

ok this is strange. I'm mid rescape - all plants out, water level down, hands in tank moving things around - and this is the first time I've seen her _not_ showing stress colours! :-?


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## Dutch Dude

Whaaaaaahahaha :lol: ,....well maybe she is in love with you're hand 

Serious,....I don't see a reason for her to stress. The tank does have everything she needs. The plants are still a bit small but will probably grow in future. My experience is that they like to hide underneath or between the lower leaves of echinodorus species. There are Echinodorus that stay small so you could consider that as well. Caves are very rarely used as shelter. Maybe she needs some more time to settle in the new tank. She doesn't always were the stress sign so maybe it takes some time.

Good luck with rescaping and playing in the water :wink:

Ruurd


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## blairo1

Glad to see Ruurd is taking care of things whilst I'm all over the country.

Just stopping in to say that tank looks great Andrew, fantastic job and don't worry about caves as it's more likely than not that they'll never, ever, use them....

:lol:

You're better off with heavier planting, some nice open area's for them to "play" in, in fact your tank is about spot on. Personally I wouldn't change a thing, rather wait for it to grow in a bit before you decide you don't like it, those plants will fill in a lot.

:thumb:


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## andrew__

thanks 

I did end up doing some minor changes & added a few more small sword plants as per Dutch Dude's suggestion.

The tank as is:










and here's my male:










and female:










shortly after the rescape showing some nice colour for me


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## andrew__

my tank has gone completely insane tonight. The angels started to clean leaves yesterday which has thrown the whole tank into chaos. They can't decide if the want to try the sword again or maybe the anubias... which means they chase all fish away from the right side of the tank, get bored and then chase everyone back to the other side again so they can clean at the anubias for a bit.

But this isn't a thread about angels, it's about rams!

Whatever it was that seems to have triggered the angels seems to be affecting my rams as well:



















He's also chasing the female a bit (poor girl's gone from being left alone by everyone to being chased by large angels and her man in the course of just 2 days) and all out displaying and looking great.


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## JTank

Hi Everyone,

I am now a member of the BRC! :thumb: I am very excited. I love all of the info and photo's you all are sharing in this thread.

I got a trio of Bolivians 1m/2f three nights ago. They seem to be settling in nicely. They pretty much all hang together right now and are geting along great. The male is about 2.5", one female is about 2" and the other is slightly smaller than her.

This is my first tank in 20+ years. It took nearly six weeks for the tank to cycle. The LFS had the Bolivians on hold for me for about 4 weeks. They were very good about it. Earlier in the week they had ordered me two more females but the wholesaler ended up sending two males. I was kinda bummed. The fish guy said we can try again the next time he orders (two weeks away  ).

I need to order some NLS discus pellets for them. I picked up some Wardley Cichlid Crumbles and they do not seem to care for them. They are eating the flakes (ocean nutrition), and last night I fed some frozen brine shrimp and they went absolutely nuts.  On the second night I tried Frozen bloodworm and they like that too, but did not go as crazy as they did over the shrimp.

So, far here is my setup:

Tank~ 55 US Gallons
2~ HOB 40-60's
Digital thermometer
2~ 15w stock flourecents (will be upgrading in future)
200w heater
Fine natural color gravel with a couple hand fulls of pea size.
2 silk plants and live Java fern, Amazon sword and Wisteria.
A rock cave, driftwood and other misc rocks.
I will be adding some more plants soon. Probably some java moss and a few anubias. Possibly a few floating plants.

Water:
PH~ 7.4
Ammonia~0
Nitrite~ 0
Nitrate~ <20
Temp is 78f

Inhabitants:
3~ Bolivian Rams 1m/2f
3~ Cacatuoide Apistogramma 1m/2f? not sure yet we will see.
15~ Black Neons
2~ Otto's (going to get 3 more)
1~ L168 Butterfly Plec (pretty much full grown at 5")

Feeding Q's..... All of the fish seem to love frozen brine shrimp and blood worms. How often Should I feed them these? They are all eating the flake as well. When you _DO_ feed frozen foods do you give flake at the same time or just the frozen food? If it is ok to fed frozen once daily I was planning on feeding Flake/Pellet in the morning and frozen at night. Would this be ok?

I got the Black Neons a day before the rest of the fish. At the time no stores had any Rummy nose. A couple of days later they all seemed to have them. If I keep my boivian count at a trio,(since females seem to be in short supply around here), Do you think I could add 8-10 Rummy nose or would that be just too much tetra with the black neons? The LFS has the rummy's at 2 for 1 today. I was also thinking about another small plec, But I do not want to over do it. What would you do?

I will post some pics once I fine tune my tank photo skills.


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## andrew__

personally, I wasn't having any luck with the NLS 1mm sinking pellets, so I switched to Wardley's Crumbles :lol: They no longer wait for food to hit the bottom then forage but actually eat mid tank now. (I've even seen the male eat at the surface once, but I was feeding freeze dried blood worms which don't sink at all, think he was encouraged by how much my tetras and angels were attacking the surface  )

Stocking - doesn't sound like it's all that full right now, you might be able to get away with a small school of rummy nose tetras. To be honest it almost sounds like your 55 is stocked as full as my 38 :wink:

And now I've got some more Bolivian questions of my own:

I've recently scored a sweet deal on a 75gal  that will be getting here probably next weekend or for sure the weekend after that.

Stock list was going to be:
Angel pair (already have)
Bolivian pair (already have)
12 lemon tetras (already have)

maybe 8 _____ tetras (either more lemons or something else, not really sure what can be kept with large angels though)
or instead of more tetras maybe adding a pair/trio of a. borelli - not sure how they would interact with my rams though with a footprint of 4' x 18"

so my question is - if you suddently found yourself with a tank 30gals bigger and a foot longer, what would you add to the tank? more rams, some apistos, something else (I like the look of Dicrossus filamentosus... don't really know much about them though.), a few more tetras, or leave everything as is...


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## Dutch Dude

For some reason I missed all the new posts on the BRC and with few time to spend I try to give some replies right now. My bud Blair is bussy to so It can take a while befor he jumps in as well.

Andrew,...nice looking tank and great it worked out for the fish! I'm glad the female feels much beter now and they show off nice collors! After a rescape most fish have to settle in again and establish a new territories. So that could be the reason for the changed behaviour and the chasing's. They will sort it out but give it a week time. For the female Bolivian it worked out fine and she looks nice on the last pic.

Jtank,...welcome to the BRC and nice to hear you are back in the hobby after 20 years! Congratulations with the choice of fish becouse they will give you a lot of pleasure to watch and they can tolerate much more than their cousins German Ram. Abouth the food,...good quality flakes is good to feed and no problem in that. Personally I got great experiences with discus pellets. They are small and sink to the bottom and are full of nutrition and vitamins. That the base of my feeding regime. I feed my fish 2 times a day (youngsters more often depending on size / age). I feed one time the cichlid pellets and the second time an other food like frozen (krill, mussels, cockles, artemia) or small pellets (shrimp pellets, algea wafers) and vegetable flakes and good quality common flakes. As for the frozen,...they need some protein rich food every once in a while. I feed them several times (2 or 3 times) a week some frozen and would recommend to feed it once a week. Be careful that your fish don't become to fat so don't feed it to them every day. Blair uses frozen foods (blood worms) to condition his fish for spawning. I'm sure it is mentioned several times in this discussion so you can find the info by reading previous posts as well. Oooh and abouth the lighting,....If your plants do well with the 2 times 15 Watt I would not upgrade! Bolivians don't like heavy lighting.

Andrew,.....Angels often snack slender bodied tetras so I hope they leave the lemon tetras alone. If not I suggest high bodied tetras but be aware that some are fin nibbling like Serpae and Buenos Aires tetra. Colombians would be nice to! Probably the Bolivians do well with Borelies in a tank that size. make sure there are more caves as Borelli and coconuts are good caves and do look much nicer than red clay flowerpots :wink: In stead of the Apistos you could add the checkboards as well or,.....add 4 more Bolivians and keep them in a nice shoul. They show so much nicer social behavior if you keep them in a small group. Maybe your question abouth stocking the 75 would be a good post on the SA board as well.

Ruurd


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## andrew__

Dutch Dude said:


> Andrew,.....Angels often snack slender bodied tetras so I hope they leave the lemon tetras alone. If not I suggest high bodied tetras but be aware that some are fin nibbling like Serpae and Buenos Aires tetra. Colombians would be nice to! Probably the Bolivians do well with Borelies in a tank that size. make sure there are more caves as Borelli and coconuts are good caves and do look much nicer than red clay flowerpots :wink: In stead of the Apistos you could add the checkboards as well or,.....add 4 more Bolivians and keep them in a nice shoul. They show so much nicer social behavior if you keep them in a small group. Maybe your question abouth stocking the 75 would be a good post on the SA board as well.


Thanks for the advice. I was pretty lucky with these lemons as I bought them off another fishkeeper really cheap - & they're huge! (and from what I've seen fast enough - more heavily planted larger tank and there shouldn't be any problems... I hope) I haven't had too many of them colour up though so I'd probably not get any more lemon tetras (until I can try setting up a rio tapajos biotope anyway).

Four more Bolivians? that would be cool... I'll have to think about that. I'll try a thread in the SA forum in general though and see what suggestions I get. Needless to say I've never had a tank that big - I can't wait for it to show up.


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## JTank

> personally, I wasn't having any luck with the NLS 1mm sinking pellets, so I switched to Wardley's Crumbles They no longer wait for food to hit the bottom then forage but actually eat mid tank now. (I've even seen the male eat at the surface once, but I was feeding freeze dried blood worms which don't sink at all, think he was encouraged by how much my tetras and angels were attacking the surface )
> 
> Stocking - doesn't sound like it's all that full right now, you might be able to get away with a small school of rummy nose tetras. To be honest it almost sounds like your 55 is stocked as full as my 38


Andrew, That is funny about the crumbles/NLS pellets. Maybe, since mine are not interested in the crumbles, they will prefer the NLS Discus pellets then??? I will have to get some to try. I am going to think about what fish to add for a little bit.



> Jtank,...welcome to the BRC and nice to hear you are back in the hobby after 20 years! Congratulations with the choice of fish becouse they will give you a lot of pleasure to watch and they can tolerate much more than their cousins German Ram. Abouth the food,...good quality flakes is good to feed and no problem in that. Personally I got great experiences with discus pellets. They are small and sink to the bottom and are full of nutrition and vitamins. That the base of my feeding regime. I feed my fish 2 times a day (youngsters more often depending on size / age). I feed one time the cichlid pellets and the second time an other food like frozen (krill, mussels, cockles, artemia) or small pellets (shrimp pellets, algea wafers) and vegetable flakes and good quality common flakes. As for the frozen,...they need some protein rich food every once in a while. I feed them several times (2 or 3 times) a week some frozen and would recommend to feed it once a week. Be careful that your fish don't become to fat so don't feed it to them every day. Blair uses frozen foods (blood worms) to condition his fish for spawning. I'm sure it is mentioned several times in this discussion so you can find the info by reading previous posts as well. Oooh and abouth the lighting,....If your plants do well with the 2 times 15 Watt I would not upgrade! Bolivians don't like heavy lighting.


Thanks for the feeding advice Dutch Dude. I will follow a similar feeding regiment for my fish as well then. I should have been more clear about the lighting. I did not mean to upgrade the lighting itself, but rather the bulbs. I was planning on looking for the bulbs you recommended to me in another post of mine.

Here are a few pics I took last night. I plan to get better at tank photography so I can share more.










Male









Female


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## blairo1

*andrew__*, the Bolivians probably forage for the NLS after a while because they prefer them when they are a bit softer....

My Bolivians eat the NLS right away and everyone comes swarming to the front, but I'd say the majority of the Bolivians feeding occurs through foraging for these softer pellets after the initial rush. I'm not familiar with Wardley products, what are the specifics?

Your tank is looking great. :thumb: Keep taking pics each week/fortnight to compare the growth! Makes you realise how much it's filled in.

*JTank*, your tank looks nice, good set-up for the Bolivians and nice light levels. What bulbs are you upgrading to? Only one thing, I would personally remove the fake thin grass plant at the upper back left, replacing it with a java fern attached to the gap in the driftwood (where the top piece is stacked on the bottom piece). I personally find the fake grass stands out too much and I like the line you'd have along the top of all the driftwood without it there....

But that's just my personal taste :lol:.

What camera do you have? I'm guessing those shot's were ISO 800, s/s 60th, f6? Something like that? Assuming you don't have a flash rig to play with and only tank lights to utilize.

If that's the case then a tripod is your best friend. Aim for a lower ISO and higher f-number, this will inevitably result in a slow shutter speed to compensate, but you end up with a crisper, wider DOF shot....


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## JTank

*blairo1*
Thanks for the pointers. I will put my camera on manual mode and try the settings you recommend. I have a tripod around here somewhere, I will have to find it and put it to use.

I plan to upgrade my bulbs to"Trocal combicolor Congo white" by dennerle if I can find them. If not I will look for Philips / Osram 840 (84). Both bulbs were recommended by Dutch Dude in a post I made a while back about starting a bolivian tank. I am very thankful for everyones advice on all subjects concerning my tank. It has been a long while since I have kept any fish and there have been alot of changes in the hobby since then.

As for the plants, I plan to get a few anubias, java moss and some more java fern,soon. Once I get them, I will be taking out the 2 fake plants including the grass. I am merely using them for now to fill in a bit. I like the Idea of another java fern in the spot where the two driftwoods meet. If you have any other Ideas about plant suggestions and/or placement please let me know because that is an area that I am a little untalented in for sure.

I want to add one or two more bolivian females into this tank that would give me one male and 3 or 4 females. I am also going to pick up 3 more ottos. I got the only two that the LFS had at the time. I am also thinking about switching out the Black Neons with Rummy nose tetra's. Rummy noses were my original plan, but nobody had them at the time. Now the LFS's have them in again. I just think that the colors and patterns of the rummy noses would look nice and a little more contrasting. I am watching my apisto's closely because I suspect that I may have ended up with 2 males in the trio. Tough to tell right now.

I am enjoying my tank very much so far and with a few minor adjustments I will soon have it just the way I want it. All of the fish are doing well and I think they like their new home just fine.


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## blairo1

So I found the time today to tear down the 55 planted tank and move it from upstairs, to downstairs.

Wow that was a lot of work. I managed to pull it off in an hour and a half!! Got the fish in, Bolivians seem nice and happy, ready to breed, I just need to up the temp a bit and start conditioning them.

Anyway this is a night shot, JTANK this is also relative to you - this shot has 3 small LED's over the tank so I had to use a tripod on this,ISO 400, f18, s/s 30sec.









I'll get some pics up tomorrow when the lights are on for the actual scape pics.

:thumb:


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## andrew__

I like that lighting effect! do you keep those on all night?

also what sort of grass looking plant is that you have there? I seem to remember asking you this same question months ago but not sure if it's the same thing (or what your answer way for that matter)


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## Ape-Fish

Hi BRC guys!  these Rams look like fun. I'm thinking of joining the BRC club too, but i'm wondering if you could tell me the important differences between Bavarian Rams and the other 'lesser' Rams. :lol: Before i go out and get the wrong kind.


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## JTank

*blairo1*
Wow  That picture is like crystal clear. I will get out my tripod and take a few pics later after dark and see what you think.


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## blairo1

*andrew__*,
The lights are only on whilst I want to sit there and watch them all. It's very cool in person and isn't quite as bright as that shot, I overexposed to give you a better idea. It really makes for a realistic atmosphere as you sit there and the occassional dither darts through a beam of light, or a shrimp is highlighted as it forages for food. Makes you feel like you're looking into a moonlit stream . I wish I could remember what the grass is, it is aquatic though and I cultured all of the tall grass in this tank from what started as a clump of 5 blades.

*JTank*, thanks, it was just a quick snap to show the tank at night. Please take into account that it's about an hour after I filled it back up after transferring everything so it's still hazey as **** from the sand being stirred up again. When it has fully cleared I'll take some day time shots.

*Ape-Fish*
Bolivian Ram, dominant male(reeealy old pic now lol, his ray extensions are nuts now):









German Ram, male:









Quite distinguishable between the two. When looking for Bolivians I always look for the ones with the "cleanest" singular, diamond shape spot on the side of their body. Also look at the scale patterning, nice consistent even scales is also something I watch out for - I've had what I consider lesser quality rams where they had quite different scale patterns (not consistent) and they never caught the light in quite the same way:
_This is a female - you can see her swollen egg depositor. This is a fish I would not breed._









When buying Bolivians watch out for skinny fish, or fish that have massive eyes and finnage for their size (hormones). Ask where they get them from, if it's asia/singapore then be really stringent on your checks, my male above came from the Czech republic. You can get really nice farm bred fish from the asian market but they are very few and far between and are also, IME, considerably less fertile.

This is my dominant male when he was a baby, I'd already had them for a couple of weeks - fish this young should not have been sold, but you will see the difference between this youngster and the asian farm bred ones, particularly with the dorsal fin.









I'm really busy so hopefully Ruurd or someone can jump in from here with any other questions you might have, otherwise send me a PM with your q's if you get no luck and I'll keep an eye out for your questions - I can always find time to help someone set up a Bolivian tank and especially in choosing good stock.

I've got a sexing article on them so just shout when you want that and I'll send it your way.

HTH - not sure if it's the sort of info you were after, there is more, lots more, but that should get idea's in your head.

:thumb:
Blair.


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## Ape-Fish

Thanks for the info. blairo1! Great photos too! :thumb: Thanks for helping out a newbie.

The German Rams look more colorful - do the Bolivian Rams make up for this in some way?


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## blairo1

Yeah, they kick butt!
Bolivians have a much more personable character IME and are very cool.

It's more about subtelty with the Bolivians:









German Rams are cute, but they just aren't quite as smart, someone might disagree with me on that, but I'm sticking with what I said :lol:.

German Rams are a fair bit more delicate as well - they do best in temps 28-30C, KH2 GH6, pH5-6.5. Obviously this temp limits what other fish can be kept with them, unless you keep the German Rams in cooler water. Ok but they won't look as good, they won't breed etc.

Bolivians are much more hardy and tolerate a wide range of parameters - for example from 6-7.8. I keep my Bolivians in pH of 5.5, this is unusual but it works well for me and they have large spawns, good health, nice colour etc.

Just to keep it fair, here's a pic of the German Ram female:









hahahaa, is it any easier to decide?


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## Dutch Dude

Apefish,....well as you can see I'm from Holland and we got a big bear brand over here that is called Bavaria,....so I think a Bavarian Ram has druk to much beer, hahaha!!! :lol: Probably your referring to the Bolivian Ram (scientific name Mickrogeophagus Altispinosa). Blair explained all that and I couldn't do it any better :wink: Speaking of Blair,.....great look with the moon over effect!!! Nice idea Blair and saving costs to! Maybe a good alternative during the day to put some LED spots on the plants and leave the tube light off until evening.

Oooh and Apefish,...if you are a experienced fish keeper and are ready to put in a lot of effort to a delicate specie (equal to Discus) you could go for the German Rams. If you would like a perfect community fish that is much harder and has quit interesting and curious behavior I suggest the Bolivian Ram. Depending on the size of your tank you could keep a small shoal of them or just a couple.


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## Dutch Dude

Jtank,....I'm quit bussy at the moment so I peek every now and then at the forum. Tonight I discoverd I missed some things. Most were filled in by others but the Bulb thing wasn't. The Dennerle tube lights are expensive (twice the price of a normal tube light) and probably hard to get over there. I did looked at the color spectrum of several brands and could not find a similar spectrum to the "Dennerle Trocal Congo White" The spectrum that comes very close to it is color 840 or 84 (Philips, Osram) wich is called "daylight". The "Dennerle Trocal Plant" is the same as color 830 or 83 (Philips, Osram). That color is often used in offices and public rooms where "soft" lighting is needed. That color is close to a normal bulb light. Soooo,..some of my experiences,....Slow algea growth and best plant growth with the 830. Unfortunately the color is a bit TO orange imo. To compensate I suggest to add a 840 as well. That color pumps up the green and makes the light a bit whiter. I sugest to put the 830 in the back and the 840 in the front for the best result. The colors I mentioned are standard over here and probably in most European countries. They are cheap and should be easy to get. Be aware that there are other tube lights with the same color spectrum but have lower light output (old types like a 21). I would not sugest the old types becouse they lose their light intensety 4 times as fast as the new types and the new types got a higher output.

I hope this was an addition and if you cant get Philips or Osram over there maybe you can PM me the brands that are most common over there so I can help you finding the same spectrum.

Ruurd


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## JTank

Ruurd,

Thank you for the advice and offer to help me choose bulbs. I will take you up on the offer to help me choose when the time comes. It will probably be a month or so before I can get new bulbs.

You recommended those same bulbs to me a month or two back in a different post. I explained that my two bulbs are 18" and end to end lengthwise. So I unfortunately am unable to use a combo of 2 different bulbs. You then recommended that I go with the 840 or 84 philips, orasm. Maybe I will get a 48" hood to replace my two 24" hoods sometime so I can combine bulbs as you suggest. It sounds like a great combo, just what I am after.

I have not done any more photography on my tank yet. I was going to do some friday night but I had a little problem. My 10 y/o daughter said to me, "Dad........What is all that white stuff on some of the fish?".  Yup it was Ich. Black neons were the only ones showing any sign of it, but they were peppered. I was watching them earlier in the day and I did not notice it. I would almost swear it wasn't there 6 hours earlier. So I got on the health and illness forum and read up on it a bit. Decided I would do the Temp/Salt treatment. I slowly raised the temp to 81f and added salt to 3tablespoons per 5 gal over then next 36 hours. I did a gravel vac / 30% water change tonight too.

Everyone seems to be doing ok so far. Black neons are still the only ones showing signs of ich. Although I know that a fish can have it and not show it. Plan is to keep salt/temp up for 10-12 days at least and gravel vac/replace salt every 2 or 3 days at least. A bummer really as I have only had fish in the tank for less than 2 weeks. That is why I thought I would try the salt/temp first instead of harsh meds. I hope it goes good.

Tonight the bolivians look a little dark. For some reason I have a hard time maintaining temp. It fluctuates about 2 to 2.5f over the course of the day. got up this morning it was 79.5, during the day it is around 81 and in the evening it goes up to almost 82. At about 82 is when I start to see the bolivians darken up a bit and get less active. I lowered my water level a couple of inches so the hob's will splash a bit to aggitate the surface a little more. I hope I have made the right choices and everthing turns out good in the end.


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## andrew__

quick question: I just got a free pictus cat along with the 75 gal, he's smaller than my rams but I'm just wondering if he'll be a problem when he gets bigger, or only if & when they're trying to breed. (I love my 75gal, it's such a nice size, a lot bigger than I expected actually, even knowing the dimensions in advance)


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## blairo1

*JTank*
Ich is easy to beat if you catch it early enough, the probability is that the fish from the fish store were carriers.

If you catch it later then it can come back again, almost in waves. Given that the fish are peppered with it then I'd definately do the full course. I've only had ich a couple of times - usually after being away for a while as the water quality inevitably deteriorates, once it was fairly far along and it took me at least 7 ways to beat it into submission, the other time I caught it so early that with the initial treatment I never saw anything of it again. This is why I am a firm believer in trying to check each fish, every morning or evening. Once you get your eye in it doesn't take long.

The temperature is fine - I keep my Bolivians in 27.5C water all the time and my temp also fluctuates slightly (room where tank is gets lots of sun so warms up in the day). Your temp fluctuation is not something I would be worried about. Below 27C (81f) I find that the Bolivians are actually less active and don't show anywhere near as much colour, anything up to 28C is quite reasonable for them but I wouldn't keep them at anything higher than that.


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## Dutch Dude

Jtank,....sorry dude but when you mentioned the post some time ago and the 2 lights next to each other i did remember it. I'm getting old and forgetting things :lol: I would indeed suggest the 840's in your situation becouse they would be the best compromise. The 830 would be to orange imo.

Sorry to hear abouth the illness of your fish. Your girl is sharp and :thumb: she noticed the fish became ill. The temperature/salt cure seem to work OK in most cases and is done often. If it doesn't work you could also use methylene blue. That's a color agent that is relatively harmless to plants and bacteria and thats the "old" medication. Nowadays it is often mixed with malachite and that does kill most of the bacteria. It also prevents bacterial infections after the Ich but I would prefer one step at a time. You have chosen the most natural and harmless treatment but be aware that not all fish can tolerate the high temps. Neons do and it is on the upper limit for the Bolivians. Probably thats the reason why they get darker. Small dark spots all over their body is a stress sign so you could monitor them by that. I hope they cure soon and non of the other fish are contaminated. You know within the next days. Sooo,...if it doesn't work or some of the fish cant tolerate the temp for that long period I suggest the methylene blue.

I contrary to Blair I would worry abouth the temp swings in your situation. If fish are healthy they can tolerate a lot more and like Blair his situation you would not have any problem. But,....healthy strong fish don't get ill (Ich). So weak fish can become ill of small things,...like a temperature swing (it triggers Ich). Weak fish can be easy contaminated and treatment can be very hard. I once got a bad bunch of common neons and they get Ich time after time. The other fish weren't contaminated. My problem was solved by the big male Geophagus Bahia Red :wink: So abouth the temperature swings,....probably the heater can't keep up to the high temp.


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## JTank

*blairo1* I also suspect that the tetra's are where the Ich originated. All of my other fish came from the same LFS, and he actually held them for me for about a month before I picked them up. The tetra's came from a big national pet store and are the only ones so far showing visual indications of the parasite. One of the Apisto's was doing a little rubbing this evening so I will be watching closely. He (I suspect it is a male but not sure yet, I have one male one female and this one is ? but looks more like the one that is definately a male) only rubed a few times for a bout 10 seconds, but I have never seen him do this up to this point.

As for the Bolivians, They are doing pretty well although they are still a bit dark and seem to be a bit less active than before. I believe it is a combo of the temp change (just not used to it) and the salt. I am not too worried though because over all they seem well and do not have spots. Thanks

*Dutch Dude* No apology needed, I am thankful for all of your suggestions and advice. Yes, I have thanked my daughter many times over the last few days for her attention to detail with the fish. I think she will need a small tank for her room soon. :wink: She has shown much responsibility with all of the pets in our home in the last year.

The temp swings are about 2 to 2.5f degrees or so (usually up) and seem to be reflected by room temp. I do have a window air conditioner, but my house is very old and not very energy efficient so when the outside temp rises a lot it struggles to keep up. The heater in the tank is 200w and I seem to be able to get the low limit pretty much where I want it. I am more worried about the high end. Turning off the lights and opening the hoods seem to help with this though. I am slowly getting used to the little secrets of my particular tank. I will probably look into getting 2 smaller heaters to replace the one big heater in the future in an attempt to have a little more control over the situation.

Should I wait the full 10 days with t/temp treatment before I decide to go with the methylene blue? Or will I be able to tell sooner if the salt will work? I did notice tonight that at least 2 of the tetra's seem to be spotless now and the others are looking much better with a lot less spots.

Many thanks to you all for your help. I appologize for taking this post a little off topic


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## andrew__

Apparently they like the 75gal :thumb:


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## Dutch Dude

*Jtank*,....Every heater creates a little temperature swing. It turns on at say 75 and turns off when the temp is 76 (just an example). Some heaters have a larger gap between turning on and off and often thats the case with the low budget heaters. The Jager seem to be relatively cheap and quit stable with a small gap between switching on and off. Probably 2 heaters making things worse in stead of more stable becouse the heater with the lowest temperature limit works and the second heater (with the higher temperature limit) only switch on when the first can't keep up. The gap between will be larger. Maybe the problem is something diferent. Just an example. Your room temp in the morning is abouth 75 and your tank is 78. When the temperature in the room rises the tank temperature rises. So when it becoms84 in your room the heater doesn't turn on anymore but the temperature is raising caused by the room temperature. In this situation the heater is probably set to 78. To lower the temperature swing, you could raise the heater temperature to say 81 so that the maximum swing would be 1 (81 to 82 in the evening). If the Ich is cured and the fish became healthy and stronger you could bring the heater temperature back to it's origin and the fish will tolerate the small swing without getting ill. First thing is to get ride of the Ich and to increase the health of the tetras. Oooh and for you to know,....I don't know how it is in the rest of the world but here in Europe tetras are quit easy contaminated with Ich. The reason is the long trip they made (mostly wild specimen) and the poor conditions they were in befor they are introduced in our home aquarium. Ich is in most cases easy to treat and doesn't have to lead to casualties. I think you are doing fine with the salt and temperature cure and if the spots decrease you are on the way to healthy fish again. I would keep the temperature up until at least 3 days after the last fish witch Ich is cured. So I gues you have to be patience :wink:

Abouth your girl, if she is so responsible at taking care of animals and has such a good eye for details and likes aquariums It would be very nice if she would have her own. She probably also likes the Bolivians isn't she? And,....girls often like those small shrimp to :wink: They are fun to watch with their quick movements and constantly eating and it can be fun to spot them between the plants and driftwood.

Open the hoods and turn of the lights (during daytime) at hot summer days is indeed decreasing tank temperature. Be aware of cold air flows becouse it can make one side of the tank cooler and causing temperature difference in the tank it self. Weak fish can get Ich becouse of that. The overall temp in the tank can be made more stable to isolate the the tank (back and if necessary the coldest side) with Styrofoam. An other way to get a more sufficient working heater and more temperature stability is by aim the filter output at the heater so the flow of the water spreads the heat across the tank.

*Andrew* what did you do with your fish,...painted them :lol: Wow they look gorgeous man!!! They are nice colored up and good looking! :thumb:


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## blairo1

> When the temperature in the room rises the tank temperature rises. So when it becoms84 in your room the heater doesn't turn on anymore but the temperature is raising caused by the room temperature. In this situation the heater is probably set to 78. To lower the temperature swing, you could raise the heater temperature to say 81 so that the maximum swing would be 1 (81 to 82 in the evening).


I couldn't agree more, good thinking Ruurd.

Andrew the Bolivians look much, much happier now which is great. Did you up the temperature at all?


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## JTank

*Dutch Dude* This makes alot of sense to me the way you have put it. I have been keeping the temp around 81f, using only one light or no light at peek temp times and opening one or two of the hood doors. The temp swing has been very minor. :thumb: So I think when this is all over I will keep the tank temp at 80-81f.

The tetra's have even less spots today and are begining to (a little at a time) resume there normal schooling activities. The Bolivians are still a little less active and darker in color. Especially the male, he has alot of black on him. I am assuming that it could be the 3-4 tbs/per 5gal of salt if it is not the 81f temp causing them to be this way. They don't look sick or anything, just a little unhappy. They have taken a strange liking to the algea discs I am feeding the Butterfly Plec :-? They liven up for a bit after I drop one or two of those in. I need to get the NLS 1mm Discus pellets still. As of now they are on Ocean Nutrition cichlid flakes and wardly crumbles.

This reminds me......About the frozen brine shrimp and bloodworms.....Should I still only feed these once or twice per week even though they have apisto's as tank mates? The apistos are mainly carnivores i read. They are eating the flakes and pellets and look fine. I just want to make sure everyone is getting what they need.

I am now 99% positive that I have 2 male apisto's instead of one now too  . I was supposed to get only one male and 2 female but one was really hard to tell at the LFS. I can return it though, but it is too bad because they are both very good looking and it will hard to decide which one to keep. They do not have any more females either, so I will have to wait. Eventually i would like to have a total of 3 apisto (1m) and 4 or 5 Bolivians(1m). I might look into getting the rest online if the LFS has a tough time coming through for me.


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## andrew__

Thanks. They're definately the most colourful fish in my tank right now.

I did raise the temperature a little, it's now closer to 80 (then a little higher still because I added some more lights for my plants & don't have AC, though being in a basement helps with that a little.)


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## Dutch Dude

*Jtank*,....the reason of the Bolivian feeling not to happy could be in the mix of the salt and high temperature. When Bolivians are just new in a tank or there has been a major re scape they have to get used to the new situation. So probably he needs some time to get adjust. In my opinion the temp is on the high side for Bolivians and 76 to 78 would be beter. If the fish are healthy again after the cure and some extra attention afterwards (extra food and maintain very clean water) the fish can tolerate more. So if you manage to keep the temperature at the hot days around 81 you be fine. I would then suggest to put the heater at 79. During colder days the tank will be 79 and during the hot days 81 to 82 wich would be a maximum swing of abouth 3 (wich would be fine for healthy fish). But first step is to maintain the cure at least 3 days after all the Ich is disappeared and after that you can start to do 2 or 3 times a week partial water changes of 20 % until you are finally at the normal water parameters again. Then you can go to normal routines.

Yes Bolivians allso like the wafers for plecos and corys  You could crush them a bit so they will have les difficulties to eat them. The Wardly flakes are a good quality flake and thats OK :thumb: Besides that you feed cichlid pellets and they already get several foods and much better than only feed flakes. So no big problems for now and curing the Ich will take some time and your doing OK.  Abouth the frozen,....I feed them 2 or 3 times a week frozen (becouse my Brasiliensis Bahia Red need that and they share a tank) and no problem in that,....AS LONG as you make sure you don't overfeed the fish and they become fat. So that was the reason why I mentioned once a week becouse the change you fat them up is a lot smaler :wink: If you want to feed more often frozen,...say 3 times a week you should feed les and keep an eye on them so they don't get to much. As for the Apisto's,....the other food like flakes do have a high amount of fish meat so they get their stuff from that to :wink: If you want to know the best feeding regime for Apisto's you could open a new treat or contact good "old" Larry (Apistomaster). He is one of the discus and apisto experts on this board.

Hmmm,...so your stuck with a switched harem,...one female and 2 male  I would indeed return one of the males and weight for new females to show up.

Do you keep us posted abouth the Ich thing?

*Andrew*,.....they look gorgeous and yours seem to like the higher temps. :thumb:


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## JTank

*Dutch Dude* I see I see..... so once everyone is healthy again 79f will be my best low temp setting with possible swings to 81-82(fine for healthy fish). I understand now. Sorry I am a little slow sometimes.

ICH: Is almost totally gone now. There are 2-3 tetra's with one or two spots on them and that is it. :thumb: I am gonna beat this thing. 
This is the 7th night with salt/temp. I suspect that by tomorrow night the ich will be gone. If so I will keep the salt/temp up for 5 more nights for a total of 12 nights of salt/temp. That ought to do it I would think. I just hope it does not come back. As far as I could tell the tetra's are the only ones who got it. I did not see spots on any other fish, and I was keeping a very close eye on things. I also did a gravel vac on last firday(right before treatment) and sunday, and then again tonight. I replaced the salt by the percentage that was lost during the water change. I will do the same again on sunday. Then by wednesday I will begin to do the two small changes per week without adding salt to get things back to normal. I will also begin to slowly drop the temp to 79 as a low. Is one degree per day ok?

I also did a water test tonight after the water change; PH 7.4, Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 20ppm. Things are looking pretty good.

I will have to sit down and figure out a good feeding schedule to stick to and post it on the health/nutrition section to get some feed back. Right now I am thinking of Brine shrimp one night per week and bloodworm one night per week with no morning feeding the day after frozen is fed. Flakes and or pellets the rest of the time. Does that sound reasonable?

I has been a tough 2 months for me, six weeks of fishless waiting (cycling) one week of enjoyment and now 2 weeks of Ich treatment & worrying. Wheeeeeeew.

*andrew__*
I agree that your Bolivian Ram in the latest photo that you posted looks great! I hope once mine get all adjusted they will look as healthy and similar to yours. Congrats to you.


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## andrew__

JTank said:


> *andrew__*
> I agree that your Bolivian Ram in the latest photo that you posted looks great! I hope once mine get all adjusted they will look as healthy and similar to yours. Congrats to you.


I think I said that about blair's when I first got mine :lol:

about the ich - make sure you do keep treating after all the spots are gone from the fish - that's when the parasites are born from the substrate into the water column when the salt is actually able to kill them. The higher temperature in the ich treatment is used to get them to this stage in the parasite's lifecycle faster, the salt is there to kill them before they can find new hosts. (salt can't do anything once you see the spot). I'd recommend at least a week before you start to decrease the salt concentrations. Sounds like you're well on the road to recovery with this though, good luck! :thumb:


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## blairo1

Hey guys remember there will be a new "Mr (or Miss) Bolivian of the year" for this year. You'll all notice I haven't added any new shots of my male for months now - I want to adjudicate this so I'm staying out of it.... I'm serious, if people want to make a game of it then post all your favourite Bolivian Rams here, or maybe we should make a new thread, but first we need to know how many entries we have.

Age doesn't matter, I can tell a beauty when they are still young and whether they are one or two spot kinds makes no difference. I'll leave it open for a month (when we decide where to do this) and then Ruurd and I will discuss favourites and potential "winners".

What do you win, well if respect and admiration isn't enough then I don't know what is.

:lol:

In all seriousness I've been seeing more and more healthy rams, this is a great sign as it means that either quality is up, or more likely, people are better informed and are therefore staying away from the poor quality strains :thumb:. Andrews rams have come a looooong way since he bought them, it is a good reflection of the care they have received.

So who here thinks that Bolivian Rams are wusses!? Anybody?

It's a short clip but it shows how they work as a "tag-team":
http://s100.photobucket.com/albums/m15/ ... 4a1502.flv

The first Bolivian is the male, if you watch after he swims behind the sev he goes to "tag" the female in :lol:.

She's so funny, I was doing some tank maintenance and right now they have some wigglers. The female was guarding them right where there was a plant I wanted to move, normally my Bolivians will not attack my fingers even if it wiggle it right in front of their fry, so she wasn't going for my fingers but as I was putting the plant back in but she was doing her best to push it back :lol:. She was in between my fingers swimming like mad trying to stop the plant from going back where I want it. After this I put my finger right in front of her and she just stops and stares at it, then I poked her (gently of course) on the head. I had to do this a few times before she eventually bit me.

Try telling me she isn't smart enough to recognize me and my hands, they both know not to bite me, even if I'm centimeters away from their fry. Yet they will respond like this to the Sev who is 10" away from their eggs.....

Ruurd will remember how this pair co-operates, remember how they literally built a fort around them Ruurd? They moved a huge Anubias by several inches to block a gap in the circular wall of sand and debris they had created around their spawning site. Intelligent little buggers and so determined. The destruction is small scale but whilst they don't want something where it is there is no use in my arguing with them, as soon as I plant it they come over when I'm done and pull it up again. Then look at me like I should pleased, pssh.
......
Blair.


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## andrew__

Nice vid, I like how the sev. was basically ignoring your male for most of the early section :wink:

I noticed that same tag teaming going on with mine as well, and I was really impressed with the way my male dealt with my angel (well, no attacks but he definately let him know that there was a line he should not cross, and that that line was a lot closer to where the angels had spawned then it was to the rams).

Well, last night the eggs were showing eyes, but most had gotten fungus on them overnight. Down to 2 or 3 eggs now.


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## blairo1

Yeah the male is all show, he likes to stake his claim but it's the female who does the hard part :lol: But she's not so showy, like I said, good team lol....

He normally just stops, flares up and twitches at the offending fish and 9/10 times they scarper. The sev is very chilled out but if they push him too far he goes for them alright. Haha then they flee, oh yeah do they move quickly.


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## Dutch Dude

*Jtank* Haha,..no sorry's necessary and your not slow  Nice to hear the treatment is very successful and the tetras are almost cured of Ich. The plan you have sound good to me. One thing I would change and thats the time of temperature adjustment. I would spread that over a period of one week in stead of 3 days. Your water parameters are fine right now and so far so good! Your feeding regime sound very reasonable and plenty of various foods. That will surly benefit the health of your fish and also the life span.

Fish keeping can be a lot of fun but in case of troubles are illness it can be quit frustrating. I have had several tanks for years without any big problems. Abouth 2 years back I set up my 90 gallon tank and had all the bad things that can happen. I had leech, Hydra's, brown algea and bacterial bloom. Seeing back on that time I was very frustrated abouth the tank. Finely I got ride of all my bugs and troubles and learned a lot of it. It was expensive but I managed to get it back at a good healthy tank. The reason for the bugs were some floating plants I get from the lfs guy. Those plant came from a pond!

Andrew,...one correction abouth the Ich thing,...the salt doesn't kill the Ich parasites when they are free swimming. The salt couses to thicken up the slime coat of the fish. That makes it harder for the parasites to enter and to get to the skin of the fish. Because of the high temperature the free swimming stage (spread out to other fish) is much shorter as with lower temps so the change of contamination is highly reduced wich will decrease the Ich.

You did a wise thing to cycle the tank for 6 weeks and the Ich you get,.....a common thing and in most cases easy to treat. Your doing fine and nice to see you put in a lot of effort to give your fish a good live and good conditions! :thumb:

Andrew,...one correction abouth the Ich thing,...the salt doesn't kill the Ich parasites when they are free swimming. The salt couses to thicken up the slim coat of the fish. That makes it harder for the parasites to enter and to get to the skin of the fish. Because of the high temperature the free swimming stage (spread out to other fish) is much shorter as with lower temps so the change of contamination is highly reduced wich will decrease the Ich.

Hahaha,...yeah Blair's Bolivians are a masterpiece, haha! They indeed build a fort around them and moved even plants! I hardly could believe my eyes! Those little fellas that did some rescaping, haha! I also got a short unbelievable story abouth my Bolivians and Brasiliensis Bahia Red. Once a male didn't want my Bahia near his teritory and warned him by swimming towards him and flares. The Bahia was a youngster back then but still 9 inch and much larger as the Bolivian. He first ignored that small fish. So the female Bolivian came in as well and both attacked the Bahia. One pulled his fins and the male did a lip lock! I almost pissed my pants from laughing! The Bahia was stunned to and moved and took off, hahaha! One of my Bahia had an accident with a Bolivian. Both were swimming towards the same shrimp pellet. Did bite at it at the same time. The Bolivian had the pellet in its mouth and the Bahia the Bolivian! My first thought,...ooh my god he ate him! But,...the Bahia put his fins up,....big eyes and spit the Bolivian right out! Just a mistake, haha! It didn't bother the Bolivian and just continued feeding, haha! Soo Bolivians are small but ooh boy they do have character! Oooh and Blair,.....funny and very nice vid!!!


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## Dutch Dude

*Jtank* Haha,..no sorry's necessary and your not slow  Nice to hear the treatment is very successful and the tetras are almost cured of Ich. The plan you have sound good to me. One thing I would change and thats the time of temperature adjustment. I would spread that over a period of one week in stead of 3 days. Your water parameters are fine right now and so far so good! Your feeding regime sound very reasonable and plenty of various foods. That will surly benefit the health of your fish and also the life span.

Fish keeping can be a lot of fun but in case of troubles are illness it can be quit frustrating. I have had several tanks for years without any big problems. Abouth 2 years back I set up my 90 gallon tank and had all the bad things that can happen. I had leech, Hydra's, brown algea and bacterial bloom. Seeing back on that time I was very frustrated abouth the tank. Finely I got ride of all my bugs and troubles and learned a lot of it. It was expensive but I managed to get it back at a good healthy tank. The reason for the bugs were some floating plants I get from the lfs guy. Those plant came from a pond!

Andrew,...one correction abouth the Ich thing,...the salt doesn't kill the Ich parasites when they are free swimming. The salt couses to thicken up the slime coat of the fish. That makes it harder for the parasites to enter and to get to the skin of the fish. Because of the high temperature the free swimming stage (spread out to other fish) is much shorter as with lower temps so the change of contamination is highly reduced wich will decrease the Ich.

You did a wise thing to cycle the tank for 6 weeks and the Ich you get,.....a common thing and in most cases easy to treat. Your doing fine and nice to see you put in a lot of effort to give your fish a good live and good conditions! :thumb:

Andrew,...one correction abouth the Ich thing,...the salt doesn't kill the Ich parasites when they are free swimming. The salt couses to thicken up the slim coat of the fish. That makes it harder for the parasites to enter and to get to the skin of the fish. Because of the high temperature the free swimming stage (spread out to other fish) is much shorter as with lower temps so the change of contamination is highly reduced wich will decrease the Ich.

Hahaha,...yeah Blair's Bolivians are a masterpiece, haha! They indeed build a fort around them and moved even plants! I hardly could believe my eyes! Those little fellas that did some rescaping, haha! I also got a short unbelievable story abouth my Bolivians and Brasiliensis Bahia Red. Once a male didn't want my Bahia near his teritory and warned him by swimming towards him and flares. The Bahia was a youngster back then but still 9 inch and much larger as the Bolivian. He first ignored that small fish. So the female Bolivian came in as well and both attacked the Bahia. One pulled his fins and the male did a lip lock! I almost pissed my pants from laughing! The Bahia was stunned to and moved and took off, hahaha! One of my Bahia had an accident with a Bolivian. Both were swimming towards the same shrimp pellet. Did bite at it at the same time. The Bolivian had the pellet in its mouth and the Bahia the Bolivian! My first thought,...ooh my god he ate him! But,...the Bahia put his fins up,....big eyes and spit the Bolivian right out! Just a mistake, haha! It didn't bother the Bolivian and just continued feeding, haha! Soo Bolivians are small but ooh boy they do have character! Oooh and Blair,.....funny and very nice vid!!!


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## whirlpool

Hey everybody, after hanging around for a while, I've decided to join the forum and the club. :thumb:

I'm setting up a planted 40 gallon tank (36"x15.5"x17) that will be centered around Bolivians. I thought that I'd keep the tank at around 78 degrees, and my water out of the tap has a pH of 7.5 and a gH of 8. I will be adding CO2 though, so in the tank the pH should be a bit lower. I am planning on also having a small school of otos, one school of about 12 or so of a narrow-bodied tetra, and for the top section of the tank a group of hatchetfish or pencilfish. What do you think would be a good number of Bolivians for this size tank and what would be the best number of males and females in such a group? Also, could I add a Keyhole or similiar cichlid to this mix? Any other suggestions or concerns with my stocking list would be appreciated as well.

Thanks,
David


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## blairo1

> One of my Bahia had an accident with a Bolivian. Both were swimming towards the same shrimp pellet. Did bite at it at the same time. The Bolivian had the pellet in its mouth and the Bahia the Bolivian! My first thought,...ooh my god he ate him! But,...the Bahia put his fins up,....big eyes and spit the Bolivian right out! Just a mistake, haha! It didn't bother the Bolivian and just continued feeding, haha!


Haaaaahahahaha, sounds like the Bahia had more of a shock than the Bolivian! It makes me laugh how unphased Bolivians are, by anything. Once they're settled in the tank, familiar with it's inhabitants and familiar with you they really are so easy going. It's like they could care, but they aren't that bothered about it so "whatever y'know"....


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## Dutch Dude

Whirlpool,....welcome !

Tanks of 40 gallon are a nice size for dwarf cichlids like Bolivians. The temperature and tapwater conditions are fine for them and if you use a CO2 system the PH will lower and it would be nice if it would sink to PH 7. Oto's are fine with that temperature as well and are realy fun fish to wach. They would fit in perfectly. I do suggest to add 5 or 10 of them becouse they split up in groups of 5. I don't know why but they just do, haha! Basally you could put in almost every tetra as long as it isn't a fin nibbling kind. Blair has some great experience with rummy nose and they are from the same aria as well. Others do fine to such as Neon, Cardinal, Lemon, Phantom, Colombian, and so on.

If you want to play save you could ad 1 male and 3 female. But 2 males and 3 females would be fine to imo. I once kept 7 in a 35. That was realy on the edge although the tank was very heavy planted so 4 or 5 of them would be best imo.

Ruurd


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## Dutch Dude

Blair,...hahaha, indeed the Bahia had more of a shack as the Bolivian and he wasn't bothered by it, haha! They are realy clowns, :lol:


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## JTank

Lots of catching up to do on here:

*andrew__* Thanks for your advice.
I will be leaving the salt/temp right where they are for at least 4-5 more days. This will make the total treatment time 13-14 days, and 6-7 days after I saw the last spot (they were all gone on thursday). I will be doing one more gravel vac + salt replenish on the tank sunday (=4 over the first 11 days of treatment). Someone suggested this as a means to get some of the parasites out of the substrate.

*blairo1*
About the Contest..........My male is looking pretty sharp to me! :thumb: Although I am not too saavy about the technical aspects as far as body form etc.

The Vid is vey entertaining. My 3 y/o son said "Look they are dancing." Haha 

*Dutch Dude*
Thanks for your kind words and encouragement. As you can tell I do just want to do the best I can for all of my fish. All of the Ich is gone as far as I can see (as of thurs night) and all of the fish Including my Bolivians appear much happier and active this morning. I am delighted.

*whirlpool*
I am a little too new at this to begin suggesting stocking ideas, but blairo1 and dutch dude wll help you out I am sure. They are very knowledgeable and will not steer you wrong. It sounds like you are planning a nice tank. Be sure to keep ust posted on your progress.


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## Dutch Dude

Jtank,....good to hear the Ich is gone!!! Good job :thumb:


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## edburress

This isn't the best quality pic so you might have to click on it and view the full size image but I thought it was a really funny pic of a marital squabble between my domiant pair.

Male below, female above.


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## Dutch Dude

:lol: nice pic and yes,...every now and then a quarrel is good for a marriage,...especially after the quarrel :wink:

Thanks for the pic Ad :thumb:


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## blairo1

Dutch Dude said:


> :lol: nice pic and yes,...every now and then a quarrel is good for a marriage,...especially after the quarrel :wink:


Haha too true Ruurd, my pair always bicker before getting down and dirty :lol:.


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## Chris2500DK

I'm almost sold!

But I like my blue acaras too much right now, when it's time to try something different I'll go Bolivians


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## andrew__

Not the best picture (trying out some manual focusing options, but they're really limited and it looks like my crypts were 0.5m away, and the ram was too close... ) but based on his behaviour and colour today it looks like I should be expecting them to spawn sometime this weekend. Hopefully some hatch this time around!










Female is sort of showing stress colours again  there was a slight increase in light levels to accomodate the new plants I'm getting (tomorrow!) but hopefully once those are in she'll feel secure again. Can't wait for these plants though! starter portions of l. aromatica, sunset hygro, HM, glosso, etc... all for debugging html no less! 

*edburress*: love the action shot :thumb:


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## blairo1

Andrew, if that was at your minimum focal distance then the crypts are about bang on, you're getting too close to the fish. It would be better to shoot a bit further back so that you can get a crisp focus, then crop the image in giving you the same sort of shot, but sharper . It also looks like your camera is saturating the image - look at the greens on the plants, a _bit_ too bright. If you can look at the settings and see if you can turn saturation down a notch on the camera (under settings) that would give you a slightly truer representation.

Fantastic male, really nice and healthy, a good specimen. If you can, give them some live bloodworm, or at least frozen tonight 30 mins before lights out. Then again for breakfast, if spawning is on their mind this will generally trigger it (and it gives the female the extra protein and fat resources she needs for egg production).

:thumb:


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## Dutch Dude

Andrew,....Gorgeous looking Bolivian! He looks very strong colored and especially the orange belly! I hope you get some youngsters and they look like dad!

Chris,....I'm sure you won't regret the Bolivians.


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## Miss-Gina

Hello everyone i'm new here, I was told this is the place to come if i want help with my bolivian rams -So here i am and may i say its nice to meet you all :thumb:

I recently bought a pair of bolivian rams after much deliberation from trimar aquatics. They are both beautiful and very interesting to watch. I have them in my 96ltr jewul rekord accompanied by 4 panda cory and 3 khuli loach and 1 recently adopted clown pleco.

I'm unsure whether i have a male and a female or two males (as they couldnt guarantee the sex but promised to try and get me a pair). I only have one picture from a camera phone at the moment (which was taken to ID my plec) so its not perfect but i will get more. 








It may be hard to tell but i suspect the one closest to the camera is female as she is smaller and less colorful. This picture is a week old and the male looks considerably more colorful and more yellow today. They seem to have grown substantially since arriving two weeks ago.

I've noticed the smaller (suspected female) ram following the male constantly, and only when he's eating does he seem to chase her away. I'm not sure if they are having a domestic or if they actually are both males and being terratorial, any ideas what i should look for?

Sorry for the long winded first post :zz: if your still awake i'd really appreciate some feedback! 
Oh and i'll also try and get some better pics, but i'm using a camera phone atm so its difficult!


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## Dutch Dude

Welcome at the BRC Gina.

Your fish list is great for the tank size and you did not over stuck it like most people tend to do with small tanks. I even think there is some space for 5 Otocynclus what would be a great addition becouse of their cleaning abilities (small food particles and slimy algea) and funny behaviour.

Abouth the gender,.....The pic is sharp enough but unfortunately the body shape and vent isn't good to see. My first thought is that it could very well be a male and female (female on the right and male at the back). If you would manege to get a clear pic from the side of the fish would be great. The pic taken with the camera phone isn't bad at all! My pics are allso taken with a camera phone :wink: Taking gorgeous stunning and perfect pics, I leave to Blair :wink:
What you describe abouth their social behavior,...it could be a couple or will be in future. I gues the future will tell. It is positive that they get along well and so far so good.

Abouth the fish,....I'm a bit worried abouth the possible female. She is realy skinny and she needs definitely more flesh on her bones. The male also could use a bit extra but I'm not worried abouth him. I suggest to give them more often (3 or 4 times a day) small amounts of food (what they can eat in abouth 2 to 3 minutes). I would also suggest to feed them 2 times a week some frozen like bloodworms or artemis (brine shrimp). For more info abouth feeding regime and or foods I suggest to read the previous inputs and if you feel you should need more info don't hesitate and just ask 

Ruurd


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## Miss-Gina

Hello Ruurd,

Thank you for the welcome and the advice, i've researched the otos you recommended and they look very interesting. Infact, i think i may buy some for my tank because as its heavily planted it does need a lot of cleaning and they may benefit the community overall.

The picture i posted was taken a few days after they arrived from trimar, so they were probably still tired from their travelling and not at their best. Anyway, i hope you will see some improvement in these more recent pictures. As I've been watching their feeding behaviour closely and they dont seem to like feeding from the surface which was worrying me because i thought they weren't getting enough. I have small cichlid staple pellets but they float and i have to chop them up to get them to sink so they will feed lol :lol: Otherwise they eat the sinking catfish pellets that i give to my panda corys and khulis.

I have also given them some bloodworm and daphnia which they seemed to gobble pretty quickly.

Here are 2 pictures i managed to get of the 'male' at feeding time tonight:


















The pictures are not as clear as i'd like, but he is showing a lot more color as of late and he has also grown significantly which i'm pleased about.

Also, here is the more elusive suspected 'female' she stays out of the way at feeding time otherwise he seems to chase her away, i think he's greedy maybe? lol










I think she is still a bit on the small side, but as she is also showing more color especially yellow, i think she is improving?

As you can probably tell i'm really loving these cichlids, they are fascinating to watch. :thumb:


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## blairo1

Hey Gina,

Welcome to the BRC, good to see Ruurd has been helpful and on hand as always .

I recognize Trimars Bolivian Rams anywhere. They normally get them from the Czech which is the big difference - they are generally in better health than the ones turning up from the Asian breeding farms where hormones are used to accelerate growth, increase colour at young age etc, this is not good and causes deformity, infertility and overall weak fish.

They are usually massively underfed, unfortunately. Your latest shots show much healthier Bolivians but they do need a bit more on them as they are still showing the slightly sunken belly. You don't want them plump, just a bit fuller than that. I feed mine New Life Spectrum and they do really well. I occasionally treat with live or frozen bloodworm. Ruurd won't boast but on his diet he has kept Bolivians alive for 7 years!!

But I'm here to throw a spanner in the works :lol:. I think you have two males. It is very hard to say as I am basing that on finnage, head and body shape. But the best way is to vent them, as this is the only surefire way. In your latest pic of your two spot male, I can see in the second pic what looks like the males vent, but it's very hard to see. That fish I would pin as male, the "female", based on head shape and in comparison with my male (from trimar), is a male.... IMO of course.

I have an article on sexing Bolivian Rams here, it might not help you right now, but it should when they are a bit older (and ready to breed lol):

http://cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopi ... highlight=

Monty is pretty good with Bolivians so if he sexed them you might be ok. I personally believe you have two males. Time will tell us! Either way they are very nice specimens and show good colour and finnage, I'm glad you're enjoying their behaviour too. They are funny little characters. Just wait until you get a breeding pair, then they really go nuts. You get to watch them as they go through make-up's and break-up's :lol:.

Blair.


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## Ape-Fish

Hey! guys.  I found some bolivian Rams - they are calling them ruby clown cichlids. They are quite big - Are Bolivians bigger than Blues?
?


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## macclellan

Yes.


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## macclellan

Yes they are bigger than normal Rams, but I wouldn't exactly say they are big!


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## Miss-Gina

Thank you for the advice also Blair, you've been very helpful. After reading your article I suspect i do have a male and female (but i'm no expert lol).

When I look closely at my rams I can see differences between the ventrical that you show in your pictures and my male ram is starting to develop his extended tail fin wheras the females is more rounded (her head is also round compared to his). These seem to be the more obvious differences.

I cant be certain yet but i'm keeping my fingers crossed as i think my tank is probably too small for two males and I was really hoping for a breeding pair.

The male is chasing the female away a lot more recently and yet she still attempts to follow him around the tank. I dont know if maybe they are both males afterall or if he just doesn't fancy her :lol:

I'll concentrate on 'fattening' them up for now though and post more pictures in a few days to see what you guys think.

Thanks for the tips :thumb:


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## blairo1

No worries, glad it was of use to you.

It will be easier as they get a bit older. Also as you fatten them up they will start to get breeding on the mind and when this happens the vent is much easier to see.

If you can see a difference between their vents at this stage then chances are you have a male and a female so :thumb: good news. Head shape is a good key but as you saw in the article I gave examples of females that expressed otherwise male characteristics, venting is the only way really. The other features just help if you're still unsure.

Judging on their behaviour you mentioned in your previous post they sound like a pair beginning to flirt, to be honest I just like to throw a spanner in the works every now and again, my main point was that really from the shots we cannot tell and that is why I provided you with the link on how to vent them .

Make sure you give us a tank shot as well so that we can see what you're working with here .

Blair.


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## Dillen

Hi, I'm new to the site and found just the right thread, I gather.. I'm also a newbie on tanks as such, but just got my first 50 liter (60x30x30 cm) (sorry, european  started up with 10 neon tetras and two bolivian rams.. 1week ago, and they all seem to be fine so far.. The rams colours are getting better and better and they totally ignore the tetras.. I'm not sure, if I got a male and female though.. can you tell by the behaviour, if they are a pair? If I have two males or females, are there any tell-tale signs, I mean? And can you be sure, they'll pair up, even if you have one of each sex?
So far the bigger one is chasing the little one without attacking it as such.. and though it found its favourite corner of the tank, it doesn't seem to be chasing the other one away from it.. sometimes even trying to chase it in the direction of the corner.. 
I know now that I probably should have gotten 4-5 of them, but didn't want to overfill my tank being a newbie  I'm totally in love with the li'll critters though, so guess my next tank will be dedicated to them as well


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## Dutch Dude

Ruby clown cichlids,.... :lol: well that one I never heard befor. I think the owner of that lfs has quit a good imagination :lol: As some already posted is that they grow indeed larger than the German Rams. Most Bolivians grow to a size of 2,5 inch to 3 inch (TL) and some dominant male can grow even a bit larger.

Gina,.....Oto's are funny little fish and or almost as interesting to watch as the Bolivians. You may have found on articles about the specie that they don't live long or that they are very sensitive. I keep Oto's now for 7 years and don't have that experience. They are hardy once they are used to the water conditions. They don't like high temps so the upper limit is about 78 what would be a very nice temp for the Bolivians to. Oto's need some time to get used to the new environment and water values. If you buy them make sure they don't have Ich (they are sensitive to that just like neons) and let them very slowly get used to your tankwater by putting in small amounts of tankwater while the bag floats in the tank. Take the time for that and mix the water for about 1 to 2 hours. Luckily you didn't overstock the tank but keep in mind that you are already on the limit. The Bolivians seem to fit in well and they thank you for good care with nice strong collors.

Bolivians can be picky on food but mostly because they have to get used to the taste. That's one of the reasons why I feed mine a various diet. When they are new in a tank they can be shy and don't get the food from the surface. In time they probably will do that. For now some sinking food would be best and I have great experience with small discus pellets (Tetra).

The fish looks much better in the last pics! Good job Gina :thumb: Like Blair already wrote,.......they can still have a bit more flesh to their bones but they are surely looking much much better! I'll bet they become even stronger colored in the next weeks! So what do you think,...are you going for Mr. Bolivian 2007? :thumb:

Dillen,...welcome to the forum! A 50 liter tank is a nice tank to begin with and most of us European begin with a small tank like that. Once you can control a small tank you will be ready to put up large tanks that will be more easy to maintain as a small one (larger tank is more stable).

You never be sure if a male and female Bolivian pair up. Time will tell. Some behaviour can lead to building a bond a finally a pair only I find it hard to describe that behavior. Unfortunately it will take some time to be sure of the male female thing and if they become a pair or not. Did you checked the treat of Blair about sexing Bolivians?

Oooh and for most of us it is already to late, but I still have to warn you,...Bolivians can be addicting :wink:

Blair,.....I'm stupid, hahaha! Yes you already knew that but let me explain,.....The article (about Bolivians),....the one that you lost because of a computer crash? Yes,..remember it,.....my computer also crashed and I didn't make a back up,....sounds familiar? So I did loos it as well! Please can you sent it back to me?  :lol:


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## Dillen

Thank you for the answer, Dutch Dude.. After reading some more of the thread, I'm suddenly in doubt, if mine are even bolivian..  They look more like the blues, ChrisWalker shoved pictures of on page 5 of the thread.. It has been very difficult to find out the ecact species, since the shop sold them as "butterfly cichlids" and I obviously am to unexperienced to insist on the latin name.. (learned that now.. doh!) 
If they have orange eyes, are they then blue rams? Really sorry if so.. then I'm in the wrong thread and have wasted your time  ... not mine though, learning a lot on this site  
The trouble for me has been, that many pics on the net do not reflect the colours mine have, either they are very strong in colour, or have extremely long fins compared to mine.. but after reading about the many variation due to hormons and such, perhaps my blues are just more "original"? or younger?
Hope you can put me out of my misery


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## blairo1

Hey Dillen,

Do they look like this:










or this:










First one is a German Ram - Mikrogeophagus ramirezi. The second is the Bolivian Ram - Mikrogeophagus altispinosa.



Dutch Dude said:


> Blair,.....I'm stupid, hahaha! Yes you already knew that but let me explain,.....The article (about Bolivians),....the one that you lost because of a computer crash? Yes,..remember it,.....my computer also crashed and I didn't make a back up,....sounds familiar? So I did loos it as well! Please can you sent it back to me?


Oh man, Ruurd that made me laugh. It's not a funny thing to happen (as we well know) but for that to happen to the both of us like this, with losing the article, it's too funny. I've already been through the pissed off stage a few weeks back. I just wish I'd sent you a copy of the work in progress before I lost everything. Never mind. I will email your bit to you right now.

Blair.


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## Dillen

Weeell.. they're not as colourful as the blue (is that the same as german?) ram in the first picture, but have the orange eyes and the black line on the on the .. erhm.. the fins underneath the chest, hehe.. and their spots extend on the tail and fins, so I guess they're not bolivian after all.. sorry  Thanks very much for your help..


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## Dillen

Ps:But why call it the bolivian ram if it isn't a ramirezi?? Hihi.. just to say, it's really confusing to be a newbie  Thanks again


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## dgaddis1

Hey guys! I'm going to be setting up a new tank pretty soon. I've just moved into a new apartment and don't really have the floor space for my current 29G (planted, angels, rasbora's, and an SAE) So I've bought a 29G Bio-Cube which will sit on an end table next to the couch and not take up any additional floor space.

Anyhow...the new tank is going to be a heavily planted, very lightly stocked, low light, low maintenance setup. I'm planning to keep only two rams and a handful of oto's (3-5). The floor of the tank is 20in x 17.5in.

I'm trying to decide between german rams and bolivian rams. Germans are more colorful and don't get as big (which I actually like for this set up), but no one in town has any. A good local shop does have some very nice looking bolivians however. But, I've read that bolivians will eat smaller fish. Is this true, and would the bolivians be able to eat oto's? And what about the germans, should I worry about them eating the oto's? I know rams are peaceful compared to most cichlids, but they're still cichlids....

Thanks for any advice!


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## andrew__

I have mine with ottos and haven't had any problems. just try not to buy the smallest ottos and you should be fine.


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## Dutch Dude

Hi Dgaddis. I don't know were you reed that Bolivians eat smaller fish but I keep for more than 7 years Bolivians and kept them with small tetras like neons and I do keep them for a long time with Oto's. I never seen a Bolivian trying to eat a small fish. I did see them chase some fish out of their territory in breeding time but that's all. So keeping Bolivians with Oto's is no problem at all and thy will be perfect tank mates! Oto's are very interesting to watch and a good cleaning crew (pic up a lot of small food particles and also eat soft and slimy algae). Keep in mind that Oto's and Bolivians do best on temps around the 76. German Rams need higher temps and for that they can not be mixed with Oto's. If you decide to keep Oto's I suggest to buy 5 of them. For some strange reason they always stick with 5. I have had 15 in the past that split up in 3 groups of 5. So 5 would be great.

If the tank is set up I would love to see a pic


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## dgaddis1

Thanks for the info guys. I'd love to post a pic of the tank, but it's not set up yet. I have everything needed to set it up (tank, eco-complete, all filter/lights, heater, even all the plants and a really cool big piece of driftwood). I have everything except a place to put the tank, and the fish. My furniture was ordered almost two months ago, so I'm expecting a call any day now letting me know when the delivery will be.

I've decided against the German blues because of the different temp. requirements as well as availability. But I do have one last question about the bolivians; how big do they get? I've read everything between 2.2" to 4.5".

Thanks again, and I'll post pics on the tank is set up.


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## Dutch Dude

Lets keep fingers crossed that the furniture arrive soon,...2 months is a long time!

Most Bolivians grow to 2.5 inch to 3.5 inch. Some stay smaller and most leightley those fish grow up in poor conditions or come from an Asian fish farm. Wild caught specimen would grow a bit larger but i never seen them over here and probably would kill for it :lol: Adult males are a bit larger than adult females (abouth half an inch)

Ruurd


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## andrew__

About the ottos and groups of 5... it's true. I bought 6 and I always feel sorry for the guy who gets left alone 

Anyway, I'm sure somewhere in these 21 pages this has been answered but will bolivians be fine from free swimming on bbs? (Amazing success with this latest spawn, almost none have fungused, at least 50 with eyes today - spawn was on Wednesday afternoon.)


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## edburress

congrats :thumb:


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## andrew__

thanks. They're wrigglers now. I'm setting up my bbs hatchery tonight and trying to free up a tank to grow them out in. As fantastic as they are as parents at protecting their fry, it's not going to be easy once they're free swimming.


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## Dutch Dude

Dillen,.....To give an answer to the question why Microgeophagus Altispinosa is called Bolivian Ram. Both species are a breed apart (Rams and Bolivians) and do have the same specie name. Back in the 80's the specie name was Papilochromis Ramirezzi and Papilochromis Altispinosa. Nowadays the "family name" is Microgeophagus (dwarf Geophagus). The Ramirezzi was and is a very popular fish because of their small size and incredibly nice colors. So most fish keepers do know the Ramirezzi. Later the Altispinosa came to or lfs. Altispinosa comes from the rivers Guapore and Mamore and some of their tributaries in Bolivia (near the border with Brazil) The family bond with the Rams and their origin (Bolivia) made the name Bolivian Ram.

Andrew,.....Congratulations with your youngsters :thumb: Be prepared for a looooong time having them to grow out. After they reached a size of abouth 1 inch their growth slows down and down and down. Still got some 7 months old fry over here of abouth 1 1/2 to 2 inch :wink: bbs is the best food you can give your youngsters when they become free swimming. Some succeed with Hikari First Bites from the start but some of mine did eat the First bites after 1 month. The bbs is the best way to go and I feed it for abouth 3 months.


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## malawi_rainbow

Andrew_
What kind of hatchery are you using?


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## shrimp-n-grits

I'm just breaking in to say that I have a great pair of these myself. I have blues before, but they never seem to last more than a few months, so I decided to try the bolivians. Actually, 2 pair, bc I bought 2 (lfs man said 1m, 1fm) ended up with 2 males, so I bought 2 more and of course they are both fm. I am going to take one pair in soon and trade for some apistos, though. The pair I'm keeping spawned a couple of weeks ago but the male started eating them shortly after. I have since moved tanks around and they are just getting settled in really good again. I don't want/expect any surviving fry, but I do love to watch them spawn! (I'm such a perv that way!)
LOL


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## Miss-Gina

Hello everyone,

I promised i would post some pictures of my tank and also more pictures of the rams so you could see an improvement in them. 
As i was feeding them this morning I took a few pictures, but neither of the pair seemed to want to pose for the camera, so I apologise in advance for the quality lol :lol:

Firstly, here is my tank overall (some of the plants need a trim i know ) I use sand as my substrate with some pebbles scattered about around the bogwood. 








A random pic of the centre of the tank 









Also, here is the male ram who was deliberately making it difficult for me to take a picture of him. His colors are more vibrant lately and he is also starting to feed from the surface. 









And here is his partner in crime, she stays out of his way when he is eating and peeps at him over the top of the bogwood instead. 









I still think they look a little on the skinny side, but they are improving since i'm feeding them four times a day now. I've also looked into getting 5 ottos for my tank from trimar, but i think i'll wait another week before i do that just to let the rams settle.


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## dgaddis1

Hey guys, here's a preview of my tank. I haven't add substrate or fish yet, because the tank isn't in it's permanent location just yet. I'm doing 100% water changes every day to get rid of the tannis in the wood; it's slowly getting better. I'm going to plant the foreground of the tank with microsword. Let me know what you think!

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/foru ... 1185505768


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## Dutch Dude

shrimp-n-grits,....It happens quit often that parents eat fry when they become free swimming. Most fish need some practicing and after a few spawns ending up as lunch, most parents will succeed in the care for the youngsters. If you want to make sure to raise some fry, I suggest to pull half of the youngsters out and raise them in a small tank yourself. In the mean time the parents can take care of the other fry and practice. Oooh and you pervert!!!! Dirty fish voyeur! :lol:

Gina,....the plants do grow nice and,...you think they need a trim? Looks fine to me and Bolivians love densely vegetation. The fish looks much better now and they surely gain in color! :thumb: The red can be a bit stronger but that will take some time. They could be a bit more beefier but hey,...they look much much better. Great job :thumb: I suggest to keep on going with the feeding regime and you may just feed them a bit more. They still can use more flesh on their bones. If the fish eat from the surface they feel save in your tank. That and the good quality food brings up the colors. About the gender,....I'll stick to what I said before,...male and female. But,....thetas from the bodyshape and overall display of the fish,....the pics aren't sharp enough to vent them but I'm pretty sure that you have a male and female.

Dgadis,.....the tank does look a bit small to me (it was a 10 gallon right?) but with all those plants the Bolivians have some nice environment. You picked out some nice plants (small Anubias and Java fern) and easy to take care for. What kind of Echinodorus will be on the front? E. Tenellus or the bit larger specie like E. Bolivianus? Tenellus need a lot of light and are hard to keep clean. Bolivianus will be larger but is more easy to maintain. And,...nice puce of driftwood!

Ruurd


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## dgaddis1

Thanks for the complements Dutch Dude, but the tank is actually a 29G, but it's more cube shaped. (20.5in x 17in x 16in). Well, it's marketed as a 29, but it's more like 25G. As far as what kind of plant will go in the foreground, I'm not really sure yet...whichever the LFS has in stock probably.

Very nice fish and tank btw Miss-Gina!


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## Dutch Dude

Dgadis,....sorry bud  ,...the tank just looks smaller on the pic but probably that's because of the cube shape  But,....that means that the plants are larger than I thought and the Bolivians will have plenty of room!!! :thumb:


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## blairo1

*dgaddis*, that tank looks like it will be really nice when it is complete. What are you going to use as a substrate?

*shrimp-n-grits*, you think you're bad, hey I film my fish spawning, now that DOES feel odd. In fact I thought I had uploaded this vid but obviously I did not, so when it has finished loading I will post it up.

Here it is:
http://s100.photobucket.com/albums/m15/ ... 993687.flv

It's also about time I gave you all one sneak peak update of my Bolivian male. It's been quite some time. The pic does not do him justice, but at the moment I can't get anything better than low quality snaps as he is initiating spawning with his mate - he's a very hyperactive fish (as some of you will know). So he's only stationary for split seconds and when they do stop it's (typically) somewhere awkward:










More to come when he calms down some....

Blair.


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## Dillen

Dutch Dude: Thanks for the info on the naming.. Man, there's a lot to learn.. but very interesting too


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## dgaddis1

Thanks for the compliments everyone.

As far as substrate, I'm to use Eco-Complete, and maybe just a little black gravel, but hopefully just eco-complete. I've got 2 bags of, so hopefully that'll be enough.


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## Caius

Hi,
I've read much of this thread, but not all in one sitting (of course!) so it's possible I've missed some posts. I noticed some of the discussion of farm raised Asian-bred BR's showing up in the trade and some descriptions of how to spot them. But can anyone point me to photos showing the differences? I'm not sure I'd be able to pick up the differences just based on the text descriptions I've seen.

Sorry if pictures are already in here somewhere, it's a long thread!


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## Dutch Dude

Well basically the fish aren't that different. It is more that some of them (quit a lot to be honest) have deformities. Most of them have a deformity of the spine (the fish looks bended or even sidewards deformities). Some have a deformity at the mouth section like big lips, to small lips or the mouth lower to the body as usual. There are also fish that have a flat nose and a change in slop compared with healthy fish. Sooo,...if you find fish similar of bodyshape and appearance as those of Blair your :thumb: You can ask your lfs where the fish come from. Best would be fish from a local breeder or people in the hobby.

Unfortunately no pics but this description should give you the change of selecting good and healthy fish.


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## shrimp-n-grits

Oh I love the video and your male is a beauty, blairo!
I just love the kribs in the shot, too. I have 1 fm krib that I've raised from just a little thing. (Her parents kept spitting out babies and I had to rehome them, but I kept her and named her Sally. I don't normally name my fish, but she is just such a Sally!)) I just love her attitude and colors!

I'm hoping when my rams spawn again that the daddy won't eat the eggs. The last time he would be cleaning the rock, and every so often get an egg. It was like he wasn't really meaning to, but it just kept happening. He was still fending off any intruders, all the while snacking away. I'm not in it to breed them, but I love to watch their natural behavior. Any that survive will be great, I'll just take them in to the lfs. Unfortunately I don't think I'd ever get any money for them as the mother has 2 blotches on her sides instead of the usual one.


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## shrimp-n-grits

Oh I love the video and your male is a beauty, blairo!
I just love the kribs in the shot, too. I have 1 fm krib that I've raised from just a little thing. (Her parents kept spitting out babies and I had to rehome them, but I kept her and named her Sally. I don't normally name my fish, but she is just such a Sally!)) I just love her attitude and colors!

I'm hoping when my rams spawn again that the daddy won't eat the eggs. The last time he would be cleaning the rock, and every so often get an egg. It was like he wasn't really meaning to, but it just kept happening. He was still fending off any intruders, all the while snacking away. I'm not in it to breed them, but I love to watch their natural behavior. Any that survive will be great, I'll just take them in to the lfs. Unfortunately I don't think I'd ever get any money for them as the mother has 2 blotches on her sides instead of the usual one.


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## blairo1

Thanks *shrimp-n-grits*, you like Pelvicachromis huh!

These are the 7 month (2weeks) old fry from my P. Taeniatus Dehane parents and I've just had a spawn from this male and female:



















This is the other male I am going to be breeding (because of the clear markings on his tail) with another female who is like the one pictured above but with loads more spots, I mean loads. I've never seen a Pelvicachromis with that many spots. I'm keeping her hidden though .










The photo's, particularly of the male with no spots on his tail, do not do them justice. I'll have to get some decent shots not just point and shoot.

Re the Bolivians, having two spots on the side is not a bad thing, if the genetics of the fish are good - healthy shape, finnage, good colour etc, no deformity then that is moreover what you are looking for. The fry will probably come out a load of singles and a load of doubles. The LFS, in most circumstances, will not differentiate and will take them, single or double, as Bolivian Rams. So don't be afraid to ask for something.

:thumb:


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## GlasgowA

Hi everyone

After recent suberb advice from Blairo1 and Dutch Dude today I finallly purchased 2 Bolivian Rams (returned the Aequidens Pulcher/gold saum GT!), just took a picture so I could join your club (haha).

As usual the photo's are not great and the Rams have only been in the tank 2 hours (with the light only going on 5 mins before the photo) so be gentle.

Cheers

Andrew


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## fmueller

Hi All, just got some pretty decent shots of a pair of my B. Rams guarding a clutch of eggs and thought I'd share. Should have taken them out, because when I looked an hour later the eggs where all gone


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## Dutch Dude

Blair,....amazing the Dehane fry already spawned! Wow they are really fast at that! They look very nice and great pics as always!

GlasgowA,....welcome a board and congrats with your new addiction,...Bolivians!  
As far as I can see the fish look good only for the usual,....they need some more flesh to their bones. When they are used to the new environment and get the food they need I bet they will be more vibrant in colors. You know the needs on food? If not,....just ask.

Fmeuler,.....really nice and good looking fish! Unfortunately they eat the eggs but keep in mind,..they spawned once and they will do that again. Often the fish eat the first couple of times their eggs or fry and mostly because they are inexperienced. I wouldn't be surprised if they would spawn again at abouth 3 to 4 weeks from now.

Ruurd


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## fmueller

Dutch Dude said:


> Fmeuler,.....really nice and good looking fish! Unfortunately they eat the eggs but keep in mind,..they spawned once and they will do that again. Often the fish eat the first couple of times their eggs or fry and mostly because they are inexperienced. I wouldn't be surprised if they would spawn again at abouth 3 to 4 weeks from now. Ruurd


Hi Ruurd, many thanks for your compliments. As it happens, the adult fish in those pictures are actually from a spawn in my tank almost 2 years ago. With their parents it was just as you said, they were inexperienced and always ate the fry when they became free swimming - never the eggs or the wigglers though! After 4 or 5 spawns I got tired of that behavior and siphoned the fry into another tank as soon as I saw them free swimming for the first time. I brought them up on BBS and finely ground NLS, and the adult fish in my pictures stem from this spawn. Amazingly, after I siphoned out the fry, the parents never spawned again, and a year later I lost the male - but not before he won 3rd place in the South American Dwarf Cichlid Class at the OCA Extravaganza, which is probably the second biggest cichlid show here in the US. B. Rams are simply great fish 8)

Frank


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## gbleeker

Do you all think I could house a pair of rams in a 20 gallon? What about possibly a 10 gallon?


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## justflow1983

20L would be the absolute minimum I believe. the experts will be on soon to give you a good answer and explain why.


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## dgaddis1

Watch your units! 20G is a lot different than 20L. 20L is only 5.28G.

Not trying to be mean or anything, just trying to keep everyone from getting confused.


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## andrew__

dgaddis1 said:


> Watch your units! 20G is a lot different than 20L. 20L is only 5.28G.
> 
> Not trying to be mean or anything, just trying to keep everyone from getting confused.


he probably meant a 20 Long rather than 20 Liter


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## justflow1983

Yea I meant a 20 gallon long, sorry for the confusion.


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## blairo1

Yes this is why people hate abbrev.

:lol:

H2DI (Had 2 Do It).


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## GlasgowA

Hi Ruurd

Thanks for the welcome. I am currently using the following in the tank (not at the same time!):

New Life Spectrum Cichlid Formula
New Life Spectrum Small Fish Formula
Tetra Pro Colour
DelicaSea Cichlid Flakes
Tetra Variety Wafers
Gamma Improvit Cichlid Diet
Frozen Bloodworm
Frozen Brineshrimp & Spirulina
Lfe food blood worm when available

Hope that they will start beefing up a bit soon :thumb:

_220litre tank
4 Cleithracara Maronii 
2 Mikrogeophagus Altispinosus
4 Pterophyllum Scalare
1 Otocinclus Flexilis 
3 Otocinclus Arnoldi 
3 Panaque Maccus 
4 Pterophyllum Scalare_


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## gbleeker

I know you all read my question!!? Heh.
I know 20 gallons isn't that big, but is it doable for a pair?


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## gbleeker

Meant to say thanks for the help too!


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## Dutch Dude

Gbleeker. Sorry I did read your post this morning but didn't had the time to respond at that moment and forgot abouth it later. First a question,...is Bleeker your last name?

About a appropriate tank for Bolivians. In most cases a 20 gallon will be fine and a nice tank for a pair. A 10 gallon is to small imo. Did I answered your question?


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## Cordell

I have a 20 gallon long tank that I have 4 young cockatoo cichlids in. Do you think I could add a pair of Bolivan's to the tank? I have lots of caves and upside down clay pots with holes for caves. Some live plants and some fake. 
Thanks so much for your information!
Cordell
Fort Worth, Texas


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## gbleeker

Yea my name is Grant Bleeker.. do you know any Bleekers? That would be crazy, as it is a semi-rare last name.


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## Dutch Dude

Grant Bleeker,...I don't know any Bleekers and over here the name is indeed rare. I saw your name and that's a typical Dutch name. I live up north in Holland in a state called Friesland and the name is rare over here but probably more common at the south of Holland. Were does your family original comes from? Ohhh and Grant,....did I answered your question?

Sorry guys and girls,.....I have to stay in contact with or foreigh Dutch people :wink: :lol:

Cordell,....imo a 20 gallon tank is to small for 2 pairs of dwarf cichlids. The answer to your question,..no a 20 gallon would be to small for 4 cacs and a pair Bolivians. Do you got an harem of cacs (one male and 3 female)? If you got 2 male and 2 female I expect problems to. Sorry,...probably this was not the answer you were hoping for but I have to be correct and honnest.

Ruurd


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## Cordell

Ruurd,
Thank you for the information. Not sure about the 4 cockatoos I have as they are still young. I think I have one male and 3 females. As the larger one is the most agressive and holds the black fins up, two are turning yellow and the smallest I don't really know as it has not changed color and spends most of the time hidding from the larger one. I will buy a bigger tank. If the tank is big enough can the rams and cockatoos coexist in the same tank?
Thanks for the information!
Cordell


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## Dutch Dude

Cordell, If you would have a larger tank they can coexist. I would suggest to take the temperature around 78. I don't know if you have some room or money for a large tank but if it is limited I would suggest to take a long tank with a large footprint. For instants a 48 long, and 18 wide. The height is les important because they area all small fish so 12 high already would be enough. A tank with a large footprint gives more room for territory as a tank with a small footprint. The cacs need some caves and ideal would be more caves as cacs so they can chose. Bolivians don't need a cave but like hidden arias behind driftwood and plants were they can spawn (provide them with a flat stone). I suggest to add a lot of driftwood and plants and both species appreciate that.

About the cacs,....the 2 turned yellow are females for sure and they will be much smaller. The darker and larger fish will be a male and the third,.....why is he hiding for the male,....most lightly also a male so I suggest to watch him closely and if necessary switch him for a female.

Ooh and did you know that Bolivians can be kept in small shoals just like Geophagus? Of course you need a larger tank for that and a 55 could house perfectly 5 to 7 Bolivians. That's without other cichlids of course.

I think your question is worth to put on a new topic and the Apisto experts will give their opinion as well. I have poor experience with apisto's and only had a couple of cacs in the past.

Ruurd


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## Cordell

Ruurd,
Again thanks for all the information. Unfortunately, my husband came home yesterday with a pair of German Rams! He was trying to be sweet, since I had mentioned I wanted Rams. The choices of tanks I had was 150 gallon with 3 parrot fish, 4 firemouths, 5 clown loaches, 3 yellow labs, 2 blue moori (blue dolphin fish) a pair of bushie noses and some cory catfish. All still young, a 33 gallon tank with shell dwellers or my 20 long with the 4 cockatoos. I went ahead and placed the rams with cockatoos for now. We did a complete tank rearranement with a stone wall dividing the tank the clay pots and some caves on one side and caves make with flat stones on the other. And some real and plastic plants scattered about. So far the 3 larger cockatoos are staying on the one side with the clay pots and the smaller cockatoo and pair of Rams and the one smaller cockatoo on the other. I added a clay pot on that side this morning for it. I must say the Rams are very pretty, much more colorful than the cockatoos at this point. I will look for a 55 gallon set-up this week. Hopefully they will do OK until I find one and get it cycled!
Again thanks!
Cordell


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## sweetrain6

I've had 2 rams in a 29g for almost 8 months now, with what was originally 4 diamond tetras (is now 1, 2 died within a week, I think it was columnaris). The two rams seem to hide from each other constantly, one stays behind a piece of driftwood and the other stays by a rock, and thats where they stay... ALL THE TIME! I'm thinking of moving the one tetra down to my moms community tank and possibly adding 2 more rams to see if that livens the tank up at all, maybe a small school of neon tetras too?

Just wondering what you guys thought?


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## Dutch Dude

Can you provide us with some more information like the water parameters (PH, KH, GH, NO2, NO3 and temperature) feeding and water changing regime. Maybe a pic of the tank would be a good suggestion.

This behavior is not common for Bolivians so there must be something wrong for them to act like this. How are the colors of the fish and especially the red,...is it faded to pink? Have the fish little small dark spots all over their body?

Tetras would be fine with Bolivians and people seem to have very good experiences with rummy nose. Rummy nose are from the same aria as the Bolivians live in (in the wild), just like penguin fish.

I don't hope the tetras had columnaris because that's hard to get ride of if not impossible. Keep in mind that in mast cases only week fish will become ill.


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## dgaddis1

I'm getting my furniture this weekend! Which means not only will I finally have a place to sit, but I'll also be able to finish setting up my tank. I have one last question before I get my bolivians....

I'm worried I might have too much current for them. It's a 29G tank, but the filter is moving 243GPH. Will this be a problem? Thanks for advice in advance, and next week I'll post pics of my tank.


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## blairo1

*dgaddis1*
When I had my Bolivian pair in a 20 gallon tank (with some fry) I was using a Rena XP3 for filtration. I don't think you need to worry about your output.

Mostly because it will actually be about 50-75% of the stated output once loaded with media (and some gunk).

*sweetrain6*
I doubt it was columnaris, simply because your other fish are still alive. If your tetra's had columnaris, your other fish would have contracted it shortly afterwards and would also have died. You did not mention that you treated the tank, the only way to get rid of columnaris is with harsh treatments, if not full stripping down and cleaning everything, chucking away substrate/porous rocks etc etc - anything that could further harbor the bacteria.

It's more likely that they died from ammonia/nitrite poisoning - how did you cycle the tank? If not then they may well have been carrying an internal parasite/bacterial problem which would explain their deaths and none of the others.

More information about your tank would really be useful.

Blair.


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## Katie Rose

> I doubt it was columnaris, simply because your other fish are still alive. If your tetra's had columnaris, your other fish would have contracted it shortly afterwards and would also have died. You did not mention that you treated the tank, the only way to get rid of columnaris is with harsh treatments, if not full stripping down and cleaning everything, chucking away substrate/porous rocks etc etc - anything that could further harbor the bacteria.


Hi Blair, 
Figured I'd pop in and add my 2 cents worth - or 2 bits - regarding the columnaris thing. Since I've been working with Rainbows now I've come to the conclusion that columnaris is airborne and therefore can be in every tank. From what I've experienced, some fish are susceptible at certain times but that this bug doesn't wipe everybody out if water quality is kept up. In fact, I've had really good luck treating it in rainbows with 1 teasp. salt per gallon, temps at 74-76 and daily 50% water changes. My guess is if the fish is of strong stock, and like I said the conditions are really good, their own immune systems will throw off the bacteria.

Sweetrain, it sounds to me like they are scared and timid. Adding another 1-2 might help, as adding a bunch more dither fish to swim around so they gain some confidence. As Dutch pointed out, this could also be related to water quality as poor water quality stresses fish and makes them dark, uneasy and timid. What are your water change routines?

Cathy


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## blairo1

> Hi Blair,
> Figured I'd pop in and add my 2 cents worth - or 2 bits - regarding the columnaris thing. Since I've been working with Rainbows now I've come to the conclusion that columnaris is airborne and therefore can be in every tank. From what I've experienced, some fish are susceptible at certain times but that this bug doesn't wipe everybody out if water quality is kept up. In fact, I've had really good luck treating it in rainbows with 1 teasp. salt per gallon, temps at 74-76 and daily 50% water changes. My guess is if the fish is of strong stock, and like I said the conditions are really good, their own immune systems will throw off the bacteria


Hey Cathy, good to hear from you.

All I can say is wow, certainly goes against all the horror stories I've heard about columnaris. I'm fortunate though in that I have no first hand experience with it so I can only comment as far as what general research has taught me. .

How's the quilting? Aside from the columnaris, how are the Rainbows getting along? I know you were excited and intrigued when you first got them, how has that panned out? Still giving you laughs? I'm still not covinced with the Rainbows, haven't decided if I really like them or not yet.

Blair.


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## Katie Rose

My 'quilting' business isn't going well... but it is the summer so maybe in the fall it will pick up a bit.

Regarding rainbows - you should try a few as dither fish. I have some in with my bolivians and I just love that tank. The rainbows and bolivians like the same water, moderately soft to medium and temps in the upper 70's say 76-78. Feeding that tank is the fun part, the rainbows are like sharks! So, I drop in the sinking pellets and mix my flake food in a bit of water to pour that in on top of the pellets. That way enough food is in the water column that the bolivians have time to feed.

Oh, did I mention that I put my borelli pair in there too!? They are soooo dumb I practically have to hand feed them. They stare at the sinking food like they are wondering if they should try for it or not. By the time they go for it the rainbows have snarfed it down... But, the borelli love all that space. Who'd of guessed it? They swim all over and are constantly exploring. They are more fun to watch in that big tank - I'll never put borelli in a 10g again.

Well it is Monday, grocery shopping day. Yuck.
Good on you!
Cathy


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## sweetrain6

The tanks been cycled for about 2 years now, I started out with 2 heckellii in it, moved them to a 72g, then I had a green severum in it, until i moved him into the 72g too, and now these guys have been in there since boxing day.

The parameters are normal, ammonia is 0 as well as nitrate and nitrite. The tank is sand substrate with 2 caves made of slate pieces, a large piece of driftwood and 3 fairly large plastic plants. There are plenty of hiding spaces (which is where they stay) and dark and light spots because I'd read that they tend to like dark.

They're fed new life spectrum cichlid forumula daily, mixed up with some blood worms, spirulina shrimp and new life spectrum flakes (which they don't really like) to keep it interesting.

Their colour is good, the reds are red, but their body rarely shows yellow, it usually stays white. They don't have little black spots all over.

As far as diagnosing the mystery tetra disease, they got a cottony fuzz that started eating away at their lips, and on one starting eating away at the base of his tail, until it was almost severed from his body, he managed to survive, as well as the one I still have. I didn't have to tear the tank apart when it happened, I was using jungle buddies parasite gone, and then Aquarisol. I had moved the rams to a quaritine tank while all of this was happening.

I went and got two more rams yesterday, we'll see if that helps.


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## Katie Rose

Sweetrain, it is strange that there are no nitrates and you have fake plants....

How often do you do water changes? and how much do you change?
Cathy


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## sweetrain6

weekly water changes at about 1/4 each time


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## Katie Rose

Weird. Perhaps your test kit is old and not working? Hmm. Can't think of why there wouldn't be any. There should be some... If you have time, you might want to bring a sample of water into your fish store and ask them to test it for nitrates. Just to double check that your test kit isn't bad.

I usually change 50% per week in my ram tanks, but maybe that is overkill. What dither fish have you got in there? 
Cathy


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## sweetrain6

I thought that the water should have 0 nitrates and nitrites?

I had 4 diamond tetra, which as discussed have dwindled down to one, I was going to get more yesterday when I picked up the two rams, but the tank of diamond tetras looked extremely unhealthy, so I decided to hold off.

I think it was an aggression issue more than a poor water quality issue, we haven't had any problems with that tank... the reason I suspect aggression is because the one ram who would hang out by the one rock cave would always chase away the other if it came close, and so the other just hides behind the driftwood. Hence, why I thought adding a couple more might help.


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## macclellan

Established tanks should have 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites. Unless you have plants or a de-nitrogenator, your nitrates should steadily rise until a water change. I have trouble believe your nitrates are 0 too.


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## Dutch Dude

Cordel,....hahaha,...wel your husband was very kind to bring some GBR home. They are lovely fish to and really gorgeous with nice vibrant colors. The only thing on GBR is that they are delicate and need abouth the same care as an discus. Your cacs will do fine at 82 and they won't have problems with very clean soft water so this is also a nice combination. They are all youngsters and probably do fine for the mean time. A 55 would be great with these nice little dwarfs and you can add some real nice tetras to. Please keep us updated on this tank and I'm really interested! I'm considering the combination of Bolivians and Apistogramma Agassizzi also in a 55 gallon. Oooh and one advice,....real plants look so much better as fake once :wink:

Heeeeeey Cathy!!! Long time no see on the forum,...how are you? So the quilting business isn't doing that well at the moment? Well,....one big plus,....there is some time left to spend on this board :wink: Soooo,...I'll take advantage of that if you don't mind, haha! :lol: I got a simple question this time,....what should be the size of young Bolivians of abouth 8 months old? (not raised with the parents). Oooh and abouth the combination of Bolivians, Rainbows and Borelly,....how many of each specie do you have and what is the size of that tank? (a 55 I assume?). How are the Bolivians and Borreli get along? Do they share territory or does each have his own? Hmmm,...that one single question ends like a bunch of questions, haha! Well,...you know me by now :lol:

Sweetrain,....A nitrate level of "0" can't be right. I would expect at least 5 or more. If you would have 10 you still would be perfectly OK. What kind of water do you use for the water changes,...tap water or RO water? If it is RO water,...do you mix it with buffer or tap water? How abouth the other parameters like KH, GH and PH and allso important the temp???

If the Bolivians were stressed they would have shown small dark spots all over their body. If they every now an then show some yellow they are old enough to have a lot of yellow to almost orange all the time. So I'm suspicious at the water parameters to be honest.

What you described does sound like Columnaris witch is an bacteria. I did sniffed around at some discus sites and they do suggest to treat it the way Cathy did ,...add salt (3 gram a liter) and do keep the water very clean. There were also some cases were a higher water movement would slow down the Columnaris especially on the gills. Most important was to keep the tank spotless clean and do large water changes with aged water.


----------



## Katie Rose

> I got a simple question this time,....what should be the size of young Bolivians of abouth 8 months old? (not raised with the parents). Oooh and abouth the combination of Bolivians, Rainbows and Borelly,....how many of each specie do you have and what is the size of that tank? (a 55 I assume?). How are the Bolivians and Borreli get along? Do they share territory or does each have his own? Hmmm,...that one single question ends like a bunch of questions, haha! Well,...you know me by now


I'd say they should be about 1.5 - 2 inches. Or 4-5 cm.  I've had smaller ones, but I didn't cull them and in time they did grow. The big ones might release growth inhibiting hormones so it is important to keep that water changed so the other's will have a chance to grow big and strong. By a year they are usually around the 2 inch mark. By 3 years about 3 inches+...

I have 7 bolivians, a pair of apist. borelli, 8 small glossolepis wanamensis - Emerald Rainbows, and 5 Bedotia geayi - Madagascar Rainbows. I am way over stocked I know! I'm doing 50% water changes every 3 days... oh, I also have 1 melanotaenia preacox - Dwarf Neon Rainbow.

The bolivians are just fine with the borelli. I have my strange little coconut shell cave for the borelli and when they are in the mood they go take care of business. The 7 bolivians have formed 2-3 pairs now and they regularly spawn too. These are parent raised rams and they do as best as they can to raise their young. But, with all those rainbows they get them to the free swimming stage and then all get eaten. (I don't want any fry right now anyway!)

My other big tank is filled with my last batch of blue rams. I'm sooo happy that I can start selling them soon. I want some Melanotaenia herbertaxelrodi - Yellow rainbows and some M. Catherinae for that tank. Plus I need to move some Bolivians out of the other tank so they can spread out a bit more. (I'll probably give hubby some of the Madagascars to lighten the load on that tank...)

The borelli actually spend most of the time hanging around all that guppy grass I have at the top of the tank. They are quite the little explorers. When she is feeling feisty, she goes after anybody she wants in the tank and they all get out of her way!

Good talking to you!
Cathy


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## sweetrain6

macclellan said:


> Established tanks should have 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites. Unless you have plants or a de-nitrogenator, your nitrates should steadily rise until a water change. I have trouble believe your nitrates are 0 too.


I just tested again and the nitrate was 0. I just did a water change yesterday which could have something to do with it but I don't think water quality is an issue.


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## andrew__

sweetrain6 said:


> macclellan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Established tanks should have 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites. Unless you have plants or a de-nitrogenator, your nitrates should steadily rise until a water change. I have trouble believe your nitrates are 0 too.
> 
> 
> 
> I just tested again and the nitrate was 0. I just did a water change yesterday which could have something to do with it but I don't think water quality is an issue.
Click to expand...

Are you using API or other liquid tests similar to the API ones? If so, many people get readings of 0 if they don't shake the bottle before testing. It's almost impossible to have 0 nitrates, even after a water change of 25%.

Concentration1 x Volume1 = Concentration 2 x Volume2
20ppm nitrate x 75% of tank size = New Concentration nitrate in ppm x Full Tank size
(assuming your tap water doesn't have any nitrate)

If you do have 0 nitrate you're putting yourself at risk of other things like blue green algae etc and will have problems with plants as well.

Try bringing a sample of your water into an LFS and have them test it.


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## buntbarsch

Wow, I just discovered this topic  Bolivian Ram Club eh, excellent idea. Can I join????


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## blairo1

You have the Rams, the nice pics and the cute baby shot. You get a pass from me :lol:.

Welcome to the club!

Can you tell us a bit about how many Bolivian Rams you have, the size tank, water parameters, breeding practices? Full tank shot?

Nice to see some really healthy specimens, I'm guessing local bred? Or babies you've raised to maturity from imported parents.

:thumb: 
Blair.


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## Dutch Dude

Buntbarsch, Herzlich willkommen Klaus  to you American,....this was in the German language, "welcome Klaus". Nice looking fish Klaus and good sharp pic of the fry to! :thumb:

Cathy,...thanks for the info and I'm not worried any more. I was thinking that my fish were small but if 2 inch or a bit smaller is considered as normal they do fine. I got two batch,..one of 8 months and one of 6 1/2 month old. Most fish are abouth 4 to 5 cm. There are a few a bit larger and some are smaller (most lightly from the last batch) The last couple of weeks they got a grow spurt and they are nice colored already with strong red and yellow on the tummy. I didn't knew that the big ones might release growth inhibiting hormones.

I have noticed something strange and maybe you can tell me more abouth it. About 6 weeks ago I was convinced that most of the fish were male and probably around the 80%. By now it seemed to be more equal. I had a pic on here months back of a fish that was ahead of development. I was quit sure it was a male and Blair did to,....now he turned out to be a female! Is this common with Bolivians, did you have such an experience or did I become crazy and need to make a appointment with a shrink :lol:

So you got 7 Bolivians, a couple Borelli and some rainbows in a 55? Well,...I know you will provide them with good water quality so I'm not worried a bit but in most cases I would say,..your overstocked. But the thing were I'm interested in is the territory issue between the Bolivians and the Apisto's and the Bolivians towards each other. Do the Bolivians share their territory with the Apisto's? I would like 2 couples of Bolivians and one harem (1 m and 2 fm) in a 50 with lots of plants. So in your situation the female Borelli is in charge of the tank?

So you got a new addiction,...Rainbows, haha! Maybe you can put some nice pic on here of the tanks?

Oooh and some info for you abouth my old once,....the last died abouth 2 months ago and lived for just over 7 years. I hope my youngsters will be just that strong to.

Glad your back Cathy :thumb:


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## blairo1

> the last died abouth 2 months ago and lived for just over 7 years.


The Holy Grail of Bolivian Ram keepers everywhere. 7 years for a Bolivian Ram, that's a long, long time. Was that the second one you lost Ruurd? I remember Grandaddy Bolivian.


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## Katie Rose

I'm sorry to hear you lost your old one Dutch! I'm sure he lived a grand old life in your tanks.

There is NO problem between the borelli and the bolivians. Depending on who is spawning, the others stay out of the way. I would definitely recommend that combination...

Klaus, your fish are gorgeous. Welcome to the club!
Cathy


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## Dutch Dude

Yeh when I joined this forum I had 2 left of the original 7 Bolivians. Grandady was the Bolivian master of the tank to one day before he died (somewhere in February if I remember it well). The last fish,...grandma Bolivians, died 2 months ago. I thought this would be normal but considering most responses over here most Bolivians become 5 years of age. Well,...I think I was lucky to have such a strong line. They were different in body shape (more elongated) as the Asian I bought a year ago and probably they were local bred or eastern Europe but definitely no Asian fish.

Thanks Blair.


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## dgaddis1

Hey guys. Went to the lfs today to check out their rams. They have 5 left, the largest of which is about 1.5", the smallest around 1". I can't really tell the sex yet. But, if I had to guess, I would say 3 of them are male. They have more elongated points on the front of the dorsal fin, and seem to be more aggresive; they'll turn almost sideways and flare their gills at each other, then maybe take a nip and one will run off. They all look to be in good shape. I want to get a pair, so I'm thinking the best thing to do is get all 5 and when a pair forms take the other 3 back to the lfs. Is this a good idea or what?

In other news, the same store is getting some oto's in today (no one else in town has any) and they'll probably be ready to sell on Friday. Saturday I'm moving my furniture in, and Sunday I'm going to get fish! Finally!


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## blairo1

Sorry, what size tank again?

5 is a good number, at that size (way too small to sex yet) more is merrier and they will actually get on better in a larger group, then thin out as they grow removing the most inferior fish each time. I started out with 8 youngsters and did just that until I had my pair, well I had a trio, but the male didn't like the other female so much because she wasn't as fertile as the other, so I removed her too.

But yes, what you have outlined is the general idea and easiest way to end up with a decent pair.

Have fun shopping! :lol:
Blair.


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## dgaddis1

Thanks blair. It's a 29G. I'll post pics some time next week!


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## blairo1

Yeah sounds good to me.


----------



## pk333

**** Ruurd, I don't remember reading that your oldest ram died.

Sorry to hear about.

I can only hope that my fish live to that age.

Peter


----------



## pk333

PS... I almost succumbed today and bought a pair of blue rams. But then I came to my senses.


----------



## Dutch Dude

Cathy,....thanks for the nice words and yes they have had a good old live over here. It was their time to go but I felt sorry for them and I really was attached to them. But hey,..I got some nice fry now and hopefully I will enjoy them just as much and may keep them for at least 5 years.

About the Bolivians and Apisto's,...I was thinking on A. Agassizzii because they are from the same aria (Rio Guapore) and the double reds I like very much and they are good available. I was a bit worried over territories but that's probably no problem at all when I read your story. Thanks for the info Cathy.

Dgadis,....good to hear your furniture arrived at last! Mannn that took quit some time! Oooh abouth the tank,...is it already cycled? If not I wouldn't want to put fish in there for at least 2 weeks. If this is the case you probably can make an arrangement with the lfs to hold back the Bolivians and some Oto's. Your plan of buying all 5 of them is a good idea and perfectly doable in the 29 for at least the next 4 months. They are tiny little fish and be aware that they need extra care,...very clean water and abouth 5 feedings each day with various foods. Be aware that Oto's are vulnerable for Ich so I would wait at least a week to buy them. If they don't have Ich after a week they will probably be OK

Peter,..thanks mate for your nice words. Probably I didn't put it on the board back then (I was very busy) so you couldn't have known it.

Hahaha,....well Peter,...you told me that your niece wanted the GBR or was it you that want them after all, hahaha :wink: :lol:


----------



## HaydenC.

Ok i was at wal mart for target loads and i stopped in to look at the poor fish that they keep, and i saw 6 of what i thought then to be three stripe dwarfs, so i looked up some info and decided to buy these lovely little fish, well they were really bolvarian rams, and now i have 4 of them all under 2 inches, and i believe that the largest at 1.5 is a female and the smaller three are males. Well there fins are coming back since they were in a afrian cichlid tank. But yea i have had them for two weeks and they seem to be doing good, here some pics that arent really that good of what i think is a male he is about a inch.
































well if u have any hints or tips plv pm me thanks and hope u like my sucky pics


----------



## Katie Rose

Hi,
Good for you for the rescue. Are you planning on keeping them forever? Setting up a tank large enough for them all? If so, I'd recommend a tank with a 36-48 inch base. They are substrate spawners and have a little 'earth eating' action so I'd recommend sand or a small gravel base. They also like cover in the form of plants, etc. Though they aren't cave spawners, its good that you have some cover for them now. Driftwood and moderate water hardness would be just their speed. (Gh up to say 11 or so degrees, can be as little as 4-6). Temps 78 or so.

They will also feel better about life when there are other fish swimming around above them. Fish can be any kind of tetra or small rainbow. (Rainbow - if you get a bigger tank!)

They will look better and color up when they settle in and grow up a bit.

Cathy


----------



## blairo1

Just floating the boat as there seem to be a few Bolivian Ram questions popping up recently.

------------EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW IS IN THIS THREAD!!--------------

I know, I know, it's a long thread, 26 pages and all, but if you trawl through it there is information on sexing, breeding, feeding, tank size, substrate choices, aquascaping recommendations, other species that can mix with them etc etc etc.

Blair.
:thumb:


----------



## justflow1983

I saw some gold balloon rams today in the LFS. The were about 1cm long and looked sort of like blood parrots. Hideous, and really sad.


----------



## GlasgowA

Blair

Couldn't get your link to work for the 'everything you need to know' and I need to know :lol:

A wee piccy of one of the bolivian's one week on.


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## Dutch Dude

Welcome to the BRC Hayden. Your fish look very young to me and need some extra care for that. I would recommend to keep the water very clean and feed them at least 5 times during the day. Like Blair already wrote almost everything you need to know is written over here. If you can't find the right info or if there are missing things please say so and we probably can help you out on that.

About the fish you bought,...unbelievable they kept them in a tank with Africans! You saved those fish for sure! Good job :thumb:


----------



## Dutch Dude

Glasgowa,....hahaha,...the link didn't worked for me either, :lol:

About your fish :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: Good job and he colored up nicely!!!


----------



## Dutch Dude

justflow,.....unfortunately some fish are in poor health from a long journey or just bad care. Are you considering buying them?


----------



## blairo1

:lol:

No, no, no.

THIS thread, this thread right here, the one you are in.

:lol:


----------



## justflow1983

absolutely no interest in 'em. I was just revolted enough that I had to tell someone. The name on the tank was "gold balloon rams" and man were they ballooned...


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## GlasgowA

Blair

Thanks for making that extra clear, must have been the lazy Sunday feeling  . Got you know though :lol:

Cheers

Andrew


----------



## blairo1

He he he.

Made me chuckle - just thought of you guys clicking like mad :lol:.

Priceless.


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## Dutch Dude

Justflow,....yes sometimes pets get treated very bad and sometimes its making me angry.


----------



## dgaddis1

Hello again everyone, it's time for an update. First, to answer a very important question: was my tank cycled already? And yes, it was; it ran for just over 2 weeks w/old filter media in it from my old 29G.

I got my fish too! Got 5 oto's, but only 2 rams; the others had all been sold already. I'm 95% sure one is a male, the other I'm not sure. It looks like a female, but I'm not sure. They don't seem to like each other....each hangs out on different sides of the drift wood (hiding in the plants) and when they do get near each other they fight. The first two days they stayed tucked away in the plants, but last night they started coming out into the open some. Their color is much better already, and they're loving the flakes I'm feeding them. I'm going to get some sinking pellets later this week also. My tank has a LOT of current...when I feed them I put the flakes under the surface so they'll sink and as soon as I let go they get blown all over the place. It's fun watching the rams eat though; since the flakes are moving so much it's almost like feeding live food, they have to hunt it almost.

I'm hoping they'll start coming out in the open more, I think they're still adjusting to the tank and the brighter lights. They pretty much stay hidden most of the time...though if I sit right in front of the tank one of them (the suspected female) will come up to the glass and hang out with me  I think she's (or he's) figured out that I bring food lol.

I'll post pics before too long.

***Update: After reviewing Blair's article on sexing rams I'm very confident that the suspected female is in fact a female. But they might be too little to tell as both are less than 2in long.


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## Dutch Dude

Dgadis,....good to hear that things work out well. Unfortunately the other Bolivians were sold and hopefully you ran into more. Bolivians don't like bright light so that could be one reason why they stay in the plants and don't swim as much in the open. The other reason is probably because they have to get used to their new environment. Once they feel secure they come more to the open. They are new to the tank and have to establish territories. Thats probably the main cause of the fighting. Don't worry to much abouth it and I never had a Bolivian damaged because of the fight. Mostly it is flaring and lip lock or a short spurt and that's it.

I would love to see some pics of the tank 

Ruurd


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## GlasgowA

My Bolivians have been in the tank now for about 2 weeks and are doing great. They are in my 220 litre tank with all the other fish noted below and don't seem to get bothered by them or bother them.

My query is that they seem to have have taken up territories at opposite sides of the tank and chase (only) each other away when one or the other gets too close. One seems larger than the other but there doesn't seem to be any winner in the chasing (this isn't aggressive just a quick chase away). Is this normal behaviour, could I introduce a couple more and keep a group or am I at my limit? due space, territory etc.

Cheers

Andrew :thumb:


----------



## GlasgowA

My Bolivians have been in the tank now for about 2 weeks and are doing great. They are in my 220 litre tank with all the other fish noted below and don't seem to get bothered by them or bother them.

My query is that they seem to have have taken up territories at opposite sides of the tank and chase (only) each other away when one or the other gets too close. One seems larger than the other but there doesn't seem to be any winner in the chasing (this isn't aggressive just a quick chase away). Is this normal behaviour, could I introduce a couple more and keep a group or am I at my limit? due space, territory etc.

Cheers

Andrew :thumb:


----------



## GlasgowA

After my last post (above) I was watching them chasing/fighting and it looks like they are ramming each other with their noses/mouths into the others side, seems to be getting more aggressive!
I have added some pictures below. I have blown them up a bit so they do look pretty bizzare and very pixelated! Between my photography, my old sony 2 megapixel camera and picture it software I have probably made the photo's a lot worse than they were. They look a bit like hazy monsters so beware!!! If you are able to sex them, the info would be appreciated.

Cheers

Andrew :thumb: 

































See I told you


----------



## Dutch Dude

The arguing with lip lock (pulling each others lip) and short spurts to hunt the other fish from the territory is normal behaviour. Ramming each other in the side I would not put as normal behavior. Have we determined sex for you already? Could be 2 males and when I see the pics I wouldn't be surprised (based on overall appearance). In a tank that size you could easely keep 5 or even 7 of them. Probably the territorial issues will be smaller or disappear but some Bolivians have a bad attitude. Blair knows what I mean and also Beats had a male with an attitude.

Adding more fish depends also on the other inhabitants. Is this your fish list of the 220 liter tank?

4 Cleithracara Maronii 
2 Mikrogeophagus Altispinosus 
4 Pterophyllum Scalare 
1 Otocinclus Flexilis 
3 Otocinclus Arnoldi 
14 Paracheirodon axelrodi 
3 Panaque Maccus

Till resent I had 9 Bolivians in a 90 gallon (360 liter) tank without any problems. Yes they quarrel over territory but that's it.


----------



## GlasgowA

Dutch Dude

Thanks for the reply. Yes that's my stock for the 220 litre tank although the angels may be going (to a good home) soonish. The Bolivians have never liplocked just the 'sort of' butting although having said this, most of the time they are fine. I am amazed you managed to sex them through the photo's I posted up, although I really appreciate it.

As with my stocking levels, do you reckon I could add more Bolivians (to calm my 2 down) or am I maxed out at the moment all ready? :?

Cheers

Andrew


----------



## Dutch Dude

Well I see you already got quit a lot of fish in there and already have 4 keyholes as well. How do the Bolivians and the keyholes get along? I guest the Bolivians are in charge? :lol:

If the angels go there would be more room and probably you could still adding 3 Bolivians. It also depends on the length of the tank (and the keyholes) but as far as I can see your tank must be abouth 40 inch long, is that correct?

They are still youngsters right? An other possibility is to put in 4 young Bolivians and wait until there will be a pair and select those fish and take the others back to the lfs.

In my opinion a small shoal (5 or more) Bolivians is much more interesting to watch and till now I never head problems over territory or fish get bullied. Only the small quarrels what is quit funny and interesting to wach. I never head a fish damaged or injured because of the quarrels.

About the sex,...I'm not sure abouth it but the appearance of both fish could be male. The behaviour you describe could also be territorial issues between males. If you succeed to get a nice clear shot of the vent and a pic from the side Blair and I could give you more certainty abouth sex.

Ruurd


----------



## GlasgowA

Ruurd

Thanks for the reply. The tank is 40 inches long and the keyholes have been in since about May so are still fairly young. So you reckon that even with keeping the angels just now I could chance another 2 Bolivians and see what happens?

The angels now don't seem to suit the tank anymore but want them to go to a good home as they are great fish.

The Bolivians and the keyholes keep out of each others way, must admit that the keyholes hide away a lot of the time and don't know if that's to do with the angels?

If the answer is yes to getting 2 Bolivians with the angels then I will go tomorrow and get another 2 from the same batch as my ones are from.

Cheers

Andrew


----------



## Terra Incognita

Keyholes hide alot, I've noticed. A friend had a pair for a year, and those suckers still hid all the time.

As for Bolivians, I noticed today that theres a single guy in a less-than-well-maintained LFS that I go to for sponge filters. He looks abit beat up, since he's in a tank of small Green Terrors, so I'm thinking about going and picking him up. His colors aren't nearly as good as they could be, but I can't stand to watch him get pushed around all day.


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## Dutch Dude

Glasgowa,....you sound pretty much determined to rearrange a new home for the Angels so in future they will be moved out I guess.

I would dare to take the change and add 2 or 3 Bolivians so you have 2m and 2 or 3 fm. Did Blair and I sexed your current fish already? If your wise you arrange something with the shop that you can take the fish back if it doesn't work,...but for now I see no problems. If there are no problems between the keyholes and the Bolivians they will be fine. Moving out the Angels gives a bit more room and is positive to the bio load. Besides that Angels can harass other fish. Keyholes are known as shy fish. Keeping them with angels could be one of the reasons why they hide a lot but,....like Terra Incognito already mentioned,...they hide a lot any way.

Terra Incognita,....sad to hear they put a Bolivian in a tank with GT's!!! That lfs owner should get a kick underneath his bum! Bolivians can hold themself Pareto much together with (relatively) peaceful larger fish but they don't hold them self against GT's. If you buy the fish you save his live! As for the colors,...probably he is very pale and only got some orange on his belly. Red turned to pink and the blue hard to find. When the fish is in your tank he will have less stress and the colors will brighten up. It would be nice if you could find a partner for him or her because Bolivians don't feel secure when kept alone. But beater alone in your tank than killed by a couple of GT. It would be nice if you keep us posted abouth this.

Ruurd


----------



## GlasgowA

Ruurd

Thanks for all the advice. No the fish havn't been sexed yet (probably need a better camera for that!) 
I have spoken to my LFS and they are going to take my 4 angels back today so I will pick up 2 or 3 more Bolivians. Also thinking of adding a small shoal of diptail pencilfish. I have 14 cardinal tetras but just thought about something different since the angels are going away.

Thanks again for the help most appreciated.

Andrew


----------



## GlasgowA

Ruurd

Well took the angels back and well they only had 4 Bolivian Rams left so couldn't leave one on it's own. So now got 6 (hope this will work for a small shoal/hareem) :wink:

Will let you know how they settle in and will post pictures for some sexing lessons in a while.

Cheers

Andrew :thumb:


----------



## Dutch Dude

:lol: Yeeeeh you just cant leave one fish behind and 6 will be OK so I expect no problems from that. Nice you could turn in the angels at the lfs. Oooh I surely would like some pics and please keep us updated abouth how things go. You can expect a few day's of shyness from the Bolivians and after that a few weeks they need to determine territories. This will be really fun and interesting to watch and you can expect a lot of flaring, head shaking and lip lock.

The pencil fish will be fine but if I'm correct they will steal eggs in case some of the fish spawn. Pencil fish are fast fish and not easy to chase. If you aren't interested to raise some fry the pencil fish will be a good choice imo.

Did you already checked the sexing treat Blair added?

Talk to you later and I'm looking forward to the pics. :thumb:


----------



## dgaddis1

Hello again everyone! Time for an update on my Bolivians. Here's a quick run down of the setup again:

Tank: 29G Oceanic Bio-Cube
Lighting: 36W 10,000K
Filtration: Sump (built into the tank) 243GPH
Substrate: 100% Eco-Complete
Plants: Java Fern, Anubis Barteri, Green Wendtti
Fish: Bolivian Rams (2), Oto's (5), SAE's (5)

I added the SAE's because I was starting to get black hair algae all over the plants, and I was hoping they would act as dithers for the rams. I really think SAE's are great fish, in one night they cleared every little bit of the hair algae from the tank! Besides being awesome algae eaters, they're cool in general. They are very active, don't bother other fish at all, and are cool looking fish. And the dither idea totally worked, the rams don't hide all the time anymore. They now spend most of their time out in the front of the glass. Also, they aren't fighting with each other anymore, they're practically inseparable. Still not sure on the sex of the rams yet...I'm fairly certain one is a female, and the other I think is a male but I'm still not sure....might be a female.

I tried to get some pictures, but I'm not that good at fishtogography yet...so I shot a little video instead. I think the larger ram is the female, and the smaller the male. Doubt anyone can tell the sex from the video, but if you have a guess let me know.


----------



## blairo1

Looks good bud,

We need a full tank shot though.

It's easy - what camera do you have?

Set it up on a tripod. 
Set the ISO to as low as it'll go - 100 is quite sufficient. 
Set your f-stop to 22ish.
Set your shutter speed, probably going to be either 25 or 30 seconds. Depends how bright the tank light is, but generally speaking that will give you a clear, sharp, deep focus in the pic. Fish will be blurred but it's the tank shot so that's not so important.

Also, in the video the one Bolivian swims around like a lunatic whilst the other is sitting still. I'd be willing to bet that the one swimming about the most is your male and the other is a female. Very hard to say though as that's based purely on my observance of behaviour alone.

Blair.


----------



## Terra Incognita

Dutch Dude said:


> Terra Incognita,....sad to hear they put a Bolivian in a tank with GT's!!! That lfs owner should get a kick underneath his bum! Bolivians can hold themself Pareto much together with (relatively) peaceful larger fish but they don't hold them self against GT's. If you buy the fish you save his live! As for the colors,...probably he is very pale and only got some orange on his belly. Red turned to pink and the blue hard to find. When the fish is in your tank he will have less stress and the colors will brighten up. It would be nice if you could find a partner for him or her because Bolivians don't feel secure when kept alone. But beater alone in your tank than killed by a couple of GT. It would be nice if you keep us posted abouth this.
> 
> Ruurd


Well I went in there and I think (just barely) managed to get the guy. Some of his fins are split, and his colors are crazily washed out. There's almost no color to speak of. In a little while if he gets settled in, I can get some pictures of the guy. He's alive, and he seems personable, even if he is abit... well, to put it bluntly, ugly and battered. He must be a tough cookie, though!  I managed to cut a deal with the person at the counter, and I explained how the little guys shape was bad, and he had no color and is so beat up, so I walked away with him for $1.50.


----------



## Terra Incognita

Alright, well here he is! He's in a 15g temporarly until I can free something up for him. He's in with 2 female convicts that are EXTREMELY docile. There's been not an ounce of aggression yet, and if I see some, he's being removed immediately into a fry tank, regardless of the fry.  (I'm just very proud of these female Cons, they're the biggest from my Cons first batch, and their eyes are straight purple. It's odd. ). His colors are starting to come in a little, so here ya go:

















The full shot of one of the photos, him enjoying his company, I think!









And a little extra, you can see the purple eyed Con.. and it looks like this in real life, excet even more so. Kinda creepy.









 He's looking up!


----------



## Dutch Dude

Dgadis,....the fish look quit active and are nice of color. The tank looks good so far we can see it on the vid. I really cont tell you the sex of the fish based on the vid and hopefully you manage to take some pics. If not you can use Blair his sexing treat and the older they become the more easy it is to sex them. Thanks for sharing the vid :thumb:

Terra Incognito,...WOW,..nice convict with mysterious purple eyes! They are just a bit smaller as the Bolivian so for now I don't see problems but when the Convicts begin to grow they probably bee les kind towards the Bolivian. Except for the teared fins the Bolivian doesn't look to bad. His colors will gain in strength but that need some time. He is not skinny so that's positive. Hee will be OK for now and good thing you rescued him,...it is a male by the way. What is his size you think,..2 inch or so?

Ruurd


----------



## Terra Incognita

Yeah, he's about two inches.

In time he'll be moved to a different tank, away from the Cons. I've got my fair share of experiences with Cons, and I feel that although these Cons are very docile, it could turn at the drop of a hat. So, I figure the sooner he gets out the better, but in the meantime the Cons pretty much leave him be. I'm tempted to put him into a 10g that I use as a plant holding tank, but I'm unsure if Bolivians get along with Blue rams. Plus, I don't think this little guy could contain himself, and he'd probably make a meal out of the various shrimp in the tank.


----------



## Dutch Dude

I kept small shrimp (bumble bee) with my Bolivians and most of the time without problems but every once in a while some ended as snack. I expect problems when you put in the Bolivians with the German Rams. I don't think the mix work that well in a 10 gallon tank. But,..hopefully Blair or Cathy jump in on that one because they have more experience with the German Rams. The Bolivians Con mix could work for a while but I expect problems with the cons in the future (when they become more mature and hormones start messing things up). Seems like you need a 15 or 20 gallon for the Bolivian in near future and a female as companion would be great.

Do you keep us posted on how things develop?


----------



## edburress

Terra Incognita...that purple eyed con is awesome :thumb:

I haven't posted here in a bit so i figured it was time. one of my male bolivians has done a lot of growing and starting to push his weight around pretty good. he's probably the most aggressive bolivian i've ever seen haha. he's defenitely over powering all the other males now. and starting to show some good color and breeding behavior now that he's the king of the tank.










There has been a few new additions to the family too, and despite the bolivians complaints haha, they had to make their residence together for about ten days while another tank was prepared. the bolivian above is my biggest male now, a good 3"plus caudal extentions, and he certainly had no reservations about going head to head with the 5" tapajos "orange head" picture below. I think he is just crazy and looking for trouble, because the tapajos is a good 5-6 times the mass of the little bolivian. luckily for him, the intrusion was only temptorary haha.


----------



## Terra Incognita

Dutch Dude said:


> I kept small shrimp (bumble bee) with my Bolivians and most of the time without problems but every once in a while some ended as snack. I expect problems when you put in the Bolivians with the German Rams. I don't think the mix work that well in a 10 gallon tank. But,..hopefully Blair or Cathy jump in on that one because they have more experience with the German Rams. The Bolivians Con mix could work for a while but I expect problems with the cons in the future (when they become more mature and hormones start messing things up). Seems like you need a 15 or 20 gallon for the Bolivian in near future and a female as companion would be great.
> 
> Do you keep us posted on how things develop?


I'll definately keep you updated as much as I can.  And I don't really feel good putting him in with my Blue ram, either. My Blue is reaally aggressive (ie, in QT he almost killed two juvie cons. The ones that made that little purple eyed one, actually), and the 10g is just used to hold some plants for a later project, and is pretty specifically setup for the blue rams needs. The Bolivian will probably be going into a 20long soon, when a couple more Con fry grow-out. Until that tank gets converted into an Apistogramma sp. tank anyways. :lol: Looks like my little bolivian will be an unwilling nomad in the future.


----------



## andrew__

edburress: great shots & fish :thumb:

Looks like you've got some of my favourite fish in that tank. What size tank is it and who all's in it?


----------



## Dutch Dude

Terra Incognito,...a 20 gallon tank would be fine for the Bolivians and maybe it even works out with a small harem of Apisto's like Agassizzi for example. It would be worth a new treat imo if it could work in a 20 gallon long tank.

Ed,...WOW thats a very nice looking Bolivians you got there!!! He looks gorgeous and healthy and very nice colored! I guess Blair now has someone to compete with :wink: :lol: Your Tapajos Orangehead look very nice to :thumb: Hahaha,...yeeeh Bolivians do have some character and I'm not really surprised abouth the lip lock and I had the same situation a while ago with my Brasiliensis Bahia Red. Most fish won't take the risk to an opponent that is at least 3 times their size :lol: Thanks for sharing the pics and the story and i would love to see some more pics of the whole tank for example. How long do you got your Bolivians?

Ruurd


----------



## edburress

andrew__: thanks! i split up the tapajos orange head and bolivians that was just for about 10 days while another tank was prepared. i have 5 tapajos 3-5" 2m/3f in a 75 now, they are the only thing in there currently. then the bolivian community is the tank in my tanks section, and i have another pair of bolivians in a 20g. then just a few overflow tanks for plants and growout.

Ruurd: thanks! I have had most of my bolivians for between one and two years. the male in the picture i've had for 1 year and 8 months. he's trying to court a young female right now, i've gotten some decent video of their behavior i will post tonight if i can figure it out. this weekend i'll try and get some full tank shots and more fish shots and post them :thumb: i'll put the bolivian shots here, and do a new thread for the tapajos so this thread doesn't get overly sidetracked. thanks!

ohh and Blair doesn't have anything to worry about, his "one spots" are beautiful and i am jealous haha

ed


----------



## blairo1

Now now Ed,

Don't sell yourself short, that's a very beautiful specimen of a Bolivian and looks nice and healthy, if we do have a Bolivian of this year contest then what I will do is make a new topic - keep your eyes out for it guys and gals.

I will ask people to PM me their submission, I will then host those pics on my photobucket account and simply number them. By hosting them myself people can then vote on the # without knowing who's it is, freeing us of prejudice (lol). Obviously participants will have to give me permission to host the specific picture for the contest. But I'll get into that in the thread.

I have a lot to do until around the beginning of September but after that keep a lookout. It should be interesting to see if it takes off, and if it does, what the results will be.

I won't be entering this one, maybe next year.


----------



## Terra Incognita

Dutch Dude said:


> Terra Incognito,...a 20 gallon tank would be fine for the Bolivians and maybe it even works out with a small harem of Apisto's like Agassizzi for example. It would be worth a new treat imo if it could work in a 20 gallon long tank.


Well I went to my favourite LFS today, and while they just got a giant shipment in of alot of various Apistos (seriously rare around here), I passed, and insted picked up a pretty little Blue Ram girly for my male. I'm thinking of putting the Bolivian up for adoption, and the LFS (very very reputable, and takes extremely good care of their fish, and I've witnessed Staff teaching things to experienced breeders of many species) offered to take him in if I couldn't find an owner. They even offered $3 In-Store Credit for him! Which isn't alot, but it's the thought that counts - they're willing to adopt a pretty little Bolivian, and even give me some money for it!


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## edburress

Here are two videos, they are short and fairly similar. This is the male i posted earlier, he is courting a young female that i have only had a couple months. They've been cleaning the small pieces of slate in the foreground, and it is hard to see because of the sand, but they have dug a depression right behind the rocks. there has been a lot of head shaking, tail flaring, and gill flaring, but i think me filming interupts the mood haha because they chill out whenever i decide to film.

http://s191.photobucket.com/albums/z3/e ... ianRam.flv

http://s191.photobucket.com/albums/z3/e ... on3005.flv

thanks,

ed

actually literally, as i was reviewing this before submitting....we have eggs! Guess that means there will be more pictures tomorrow!


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## edburress

Here is the video of my Bolivians spawning that i took tonight, I added a seperate thread for it, but I figured it should be in the BRC thread too for reference.

http://s191.photobucket.com/albums/z3/e ... on6003.flv

ed


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## Terra Incognita

Wow, ed! I love that video. It's always a joy to actually catch them in the act.

And I was checking out my little guy today, kinda just thinking about what to do with him, and I started to research him abit (and this thread was a GIANT help!) and I think I may have noticed something. Has anyone else noticed that there seem to be two regional
varieties of M. altispinosa? It seems one variety is small and colorful, while the other is larger and less colorful? I noticed it checking out shots of the species before it got popular in the hobby, as well as some reading on thekrib.com of people who suspected the same thing.


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## Dutch Dude

Ed,...WOW that male really is gorgeous and even stronger colored than I suspected. The difference between the male and the female is really amazing and proves the strong colored male! Great fish!!! I hope it will be a successful spawn and pleas keep us posted abouth that.

The male is just over 1 1/2 years old and probably grow even larger. He is really a stunning beauty! And know what,...I'm jealous!!!

Terra,....If your not planing on keeping the Bolivians and you find him an other home would be nice to. You saved the fish from that other lfs and noble of you to do.

About the 2 variants,.....there are 2 types known and that's the "one" spot and "two" spot. But,....I think it is the same specie and not every fish show his second spot. Sometimes when a "one" spot is close to spawning they show a second spot to. It would be possible that one fish grow larger than the other and more colorful as the other. The Asian fish mostly will be smaller but probably that has to do with the bad circumstances. By selective breeding fish can become more colorful but also smaller. So it would be possible that there is a different in size and color depending on strain. An other reason for the different is that Bolivians slowly grow and reach there maximum size after abouth 2 to 3 years. Older fish become larger but also fade in color when they are abouth 4 years old. So the smaller stronger colored fish can be youngsters and the pale larger fish old adults. I don't think there are deferment species or color variety's and all depends on circumstances they live in, age and the strain. But that's just my opinion based on experience and not on science.

Ruurd


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## edburress

Thanks for the comments! 

The eggs hatched after 64 hours at 80 degrees. The larvae are doing good, they are being transported between small nests in the sand. This is the females first brood, and I am excited that she is coming through like a pro. They should be free swimming pretty soon which probably means more pictures.

What Terra Incognita brought up about the variants is a really interesting topic to me. I tend to agree with Ruurd that there is significant variations between strains, but that it is not seperate forms or species. The "one spot" and "two spot" are defenitely recognized variations, but like Ruurd said, some "one spots" can show a second, and one of my "two spot" males, if the mood strikes him, doesn't show any spots, while retaining his color otherwise. Also, I've seen males, that have two spots on one side, and only one on the other? I certainly can't explain that haha. But it seems the abdominal spot count is of great variation within the species, and even inconsistant within an individual; and I think thats why the # of spots isn't used to identify the species. I think the red lining of the dorsal and caudal fins, and yellow chest are primary basis of identification. But I do think the variation of Bolivians is part of why I like them so much, they're all a little different. And I also agree that a particular fishs history, and environment has a lot to do with its adult color and build. Of course, that's just my opinion.


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## Fisherman451

Hoping someone can confirm that this are a M/F pair, bought a couple of days ago from my LFS and starting to colour nicely already. Thanks in advance

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1258931192&size=l


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## Terra Incognita

edburress said:


> What Terra Incognita brought up about the variants is a really interesting topic to me. I tend to agree with Ruurd that there is significant variations between strains, but that it is not seperate forms or species. The "one spot" and "two spot" are defenitely recognized variations, but like Ruurd said, some "one spots" can show a second, and one of my "two spot" males, if the mood strikes him, doesn't show any spots, while retaining his color otherwise. Also, I've seen males, that have two spots on one side, and only one on the other? I certainly can't explain that haha. But it seems the abdominal spot count is of great variation within the species, and even inconsistant within an individual; and I think thats why the # of spots isn't used to identify the species. I think the red lining of the dorsal and caudal fins, and yellow chest are primary basis of identification. But I do think the variation of Bolivians is part of why I like them so much, they're all a little different. And I also agree that a particular fishs history, and environment has a lot to do with its adult color and build. Of course, that's just my opinion.


Another thing that makes me think it may be a variant or something, is that everything I've read about collection points of Bolivians (various magazines, and some scientific-ichytologist (itchyghayfhaadlooogists lol) based articles) said that some points only had small colorful rams, while others only had larger, "duller" colored individuals.

Maybe not a totally different species, but I think it's possible there's variants based on locality. Similiar to Frontosas. Zaire blues, mpinbwes, Ikolas, etc. Even like Discus. I'm not too familiar with them, but I'm fairly sure there are different species based solely on adaptations that were made to fit their particular niche on their location (S. aequifasciatus, S. haraldi and S. discus).

Update for my little guy: My 55 was cleared of my Convict pair, and is now home to my Bolivian Ram, a Krib, and 3 Corydoras.. He seems more active in the 55g.


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## Dutch Dude

Fisherman,....those are indeed a male (left) and a female (right). :thumb:

Terra,.....color and size of certain species indeed can be different depending on aria or river of origin. That's also the case with their big relatives (Geophagus). So I go with that.


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## underOATH87

I decided to get two of these from my LFS last week. I couldn't tell for the life of me which ones were male or female, so I just had the owner get two that he thought would be a pair.









I'm pretty sure they are both of the same sex, probably male because one just hides in the plants now and the other is usually out swimming everywhere.

If anyone can sex them, that would be cool. If you need a better shot I can go take some new ones.


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## edburress

Terra...i see what you mean, and agree that could be the case, i've seen a lot of the variation that you speak of. regardless, it is really interesting to hear what people think about it.

ed


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## Fisherman451

Dutch Dude, thanks for that it was what I thought...I actually bought 3 of the beauties the other is not quite so obvious but I think it is a female as well.


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## justflow1983

Here are some photos of the Bolivians I removed from my tank. I had two males I believe, and one kept destroying the others. Since I couldn't find a female in my area, I removed both and changed my stocking.


























edit: I fixed the photo links


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## Dutch Dude

Underoath,....I can tell from the pic you added but looking at the overall appearance they could indeed be two males. To be more certain of that I need a clear shot from the side.

Fisherman,...if you add a pic of the 3th fish I'm willing to give it a shot :wink:


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## Terra Incognita

edburress said:


> Terra...i see what you mean, and agree that could be the case, i've seen a lot of the variation that you speak of. regardless, it is really interesting to hear what people think about it.
> 
> ed


Do you agree that it could be the point of collection? A kind of locality variant? Or just a fluke?


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## edburress

Terra Incognita...I agree that there is a lot of variation within the hobby, but I don't really think any different forms or species exist in the wild or within the trade, except the "two spot" and "one spot" variations. I think most of the variation of the specimen within the hobby is due to the spread between strong and poor strains. I have a pretty lengthy rationale for those opinions but I don't know if I should subject everyone to it :roll: but i could be swayed i suppose :wink:

if no one objects to a long, opinionated post, involing little science  i might post, otherwise i'll PM you if it's just you and I that are interested.

Update: the fry were free swimming two days ago (on the seventh day) and I left them with the parents for two days and removed 65 by syphon into a growout tank. there were some that escaped my efforts, plus the 15 or so the female snatched up during the chaos while the male attacked the syphon. she actually held them for about 30 minutes! The spawn was about 100, which is good sized for her first brood i think, she's still young and small. I tried to take some pictures, but the small fry with the sand plus my poor skills...they just didn't turn out.

ed


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## GlasgowA

Guys

Since my 6 Boivians went in a few weeks back they seem to have settled right in. I though I would post a few! pictures of them (not them all). They have coloured up a bit more and seem to be putting on a bit of weight.
Thanks for all the help in getting them settled in.
Cheers

Andrew


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## Fisherman451

Dutch, I will try and get a decent picture of Number 3 when I get chance, bit busy at work this week. I am pretty sure Number 3 is female also


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## Terra Incognita

GlasgowA, those rams look nice, and your tank looks stunning! The Cardinal tetras compliment them well.

edburress, I'd LOVE to hear your opinion. I'm beginning to think your way the more I think about it, and I'd love to hear what you have to say on it. You're much more knowledgable than me, I'm sure, when it comes to these types of things.


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## Dutch Dude

Ed,...feel free to discus the variation in Bolivians even if that involves some science. :wink:

Andrew,....Wow,...quit a difference with a couple of weeks ago! Good to see your fish do so well and you take good care of them. The tank looks good to and lots of hiding places and shaded arias with lots of plants. Good job Andrew :thumb:

Fisherman,....I'm looking forward to the pic.


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## Fisherman451

Ok as promished here is a picture of Number 3, She (at least I think) was quite a bit smaller than the other 2 I got at the same time, only now starting to colour up a bit

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1302754259&size=l


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## edburress

Fisherman451...you're right, it's a she :thumb:


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## Dutch Dude

Fisherman and Ed,....it is indeed a female


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## Lbrevis

I LOVE this thread!

I've been keeping bolivians on and off for about 4 years now, and I adore them! They are by far my favorite cichlid.

I currently only have a lone male. I was keeping a group of 4, but this male want on a mad rampage and killed the other 3. I would like to re-vamp the stocking of the tank. I will basically start the fish from scratch. I think I'll get a group of juvies, a decent sized school of tetras, a bristlenose, and maybe a lone angel.

But anyways, does anyone know where I can get some *quality* rams in the Chicagoland area?

Thanks, once again...great thread!


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## edburress

Hey guys, here is my take on the variation discussion. Note that it is all derived through experience and is opinion, not scientific. There is A LOT of text, but there are pictures at the end , so if you are interested in the variation topic, read it, if not scroll down and look at the pictures 

It seems like there are two different things to address: wild variation and domestic variation, i'll cover them seperately here. There are two variations recognized by most people, those being "one spot" and "two spot", it seems like most people will say that the two are all the same species. BUT moving on, covering the characteristics that make a species is important to establish. Bolivian Rams have a distinctive red lining of the dorsal and caudal fins, a yellow chest and abdomen, pectoral fins with a red and blue streaking pattern, the first three membranes of the dorsal fin are black, and a red anal fin: These seem to be the most constant characteristics. Suborbital and superorbital facial banding, abdominal spots, reddish pattern in the caudal and rear of the dorsal fins, and irridescent blue sheen on the nose and gill covers, and considerable variation of overall body color, especially along the back seem to be traits that aren't consistant within the species. The species also has six transversal bars, that sometimes make their appearence during courtship, but are almost never displayed otherwise. That being said, we can move forward.

We'll cover wild variations first. The areas of catchment for this species are as follows: Rio Mamore, Rio Guapore, and some isolated lagoons and pools in the vicinity. Taking these areas into consideration, when compared to the ranges of other dwarf cichlids, i.e. some species of Apistogramma, this is a limited range. Seeing as the Rio Mamore and Guapore connect, and the mentioned pools and lagoons are also in close vicinity and probably flood plains for the Mamore and Guapore in the wet season; I find it hard to believe a population of Bolivian Rams would develop much differently than the rest. I have seen pictures of wild fish documented from the Rio Mamore, those being: a "one spot" female, a "one spot" male and a male that displayed no abdominal spots. I have also seen wild fish caught from isolated ponds that directly resemble those from the Rio Mamore. I have also read testimonials of hobbyists owning wild "two spot" specimen. So, that already spans the accepted variations, essentially with half the distribution areas. I haven't seen wild specimen or seen pictures of wild specimen said to be from the Rio Guapore, so that is part of my visual that is missing. I've probably seen some, their origin just wasn't documented. If you look through other cichlids that naturally occur in different forms, they tend to have extensive ranges, or at least can be found in river systems not directly linked. Bolivian Rams are said to be rare in the wild now, taking that into consideration along with their limited range, I don't think any populations would have broken the mold from the rest. Considering the ranging size and color of the fish: as previously stated by Ruurd, coloration and size has a lot to do with age, and the fishes history and environment, including water chemistry. Differing catchment areas could produce varying specimen based on a lot of factors unrelated to genotype, i.e. water quality, water current, scarsity of food, number of predators, etc. In the wild i find it hard to believe a dwarf cichlid of any species would live beyond a year in a river or stream setting, but possibly be more long lived in a isolated pond with primarily its own species. this alone could provide for a considerably different coloration and size due to age. Also fish found in dense populations in isolated ponds could fail to reach full size due to population density, where as, a specimen in a river system, being younger, could reach a larger size. So i don't think there are any grounds to think that different forms, or species are present in the wild based on differing phenotype and size. But with all the possibilities and senarios, it is possible.

Clearly, everything about the wild types is very theoretical. The species history is complex and confusing, basically because their documentation has been poor, making anything difficult to assume. But, there probably aren't too many wild types floating around in the hobby, so the domestic strains will be easier to address. A lot of color morphs and strains of fish are produced in the trade. However, Kullander didn't sort out the classification confusion of this species until 1981. Then Linke and Staeck caught and bred wild fish in 1985, and i doubt those became the ancestors of all the bolivian rams now avaiable to hobbyists, meaning more recent trips by someone...but to the point, bolivians haven't been around for very long, and if anything, have been inbred extensively, not selectively, or any single population over any length of time bred in a positive manner, so i don't think any viable forms would have developed commercially either. My theory, based souly on experience, and what i have read, and pictures i have seen, and nothing scientific whatsoever, is that the variations seen in bolivian rams today are simply the spread between "good genes" and "bad genes". BUT i will say, that is being said without really seeing the appropriate number of wild specimen, and those being documented as to their origin.

Unfortunantely, a lot of fish are bred in poor conditions, ranging from extensive inbreeding, to hormones, to being raised in high temperatures to speed development. There are a lot of factors that deteriorate the quality of a strain of fish, and those factors are sometimes visible in the strains phenotype. There do seem to be some differing strains of Bolivians making their way through the hobby. The variation goes back to the characteristics listed at the beginning of this post, the ones that are inconsistant throughout the species: spot count, facial banding, coloration in the caudal and dorsal fins, and facial coloration, and overall body coloration are the characteristics that vary within those different strains. There are also some structural variations, of head shape and eye size, that could be different between strains, but we'll look at coloration and markings. The same inconsistancies that hint at different forms or species being present, is also what limits that arguement. The same characteristics can be inconsistant within an individual fish. Spot count can change on a specimen depending on mood, and stress level. Overall body coloration can vary drastically depending on many factors. This makes it hard to consider any varying quality as a source of a different species or color form. Another argument is the varying appearence within the species merely based on age. Sometimes the poor strains color up early, and look like they have great potential, only to fade early, and be more often then not, infertile. this makes it hard to judge quality based on appearence unless you really know what to look for, or know a fishes history. Sometimes the little female hiding down in the corner will produce broods of 100+ for years, and raise the fry herself, and the bold, plump female chasing the others around will produce none, or be incapable of raising her offspring.

To make a real solid theory, one would have to have compare wild fish from each locality. On the domestic side, to make a sound theory, I think you would have to keep offspring to adulthood and note phenotype in relation to parents; and do that with several different strains.

I haven't had the ability to take quality pictures for very long, or I would have a better selection to choose from, but I looked through mine and found some pictures that represent different strains, some of those that might be construed as varying color forms or even species. If you google image search Microgeophagus altispinosa, you can find more pictures of each strain proposed here. But these are all my fish, I've been fortunante enough to have acquired fish from several different backgrounds and been able to compare them. I'll try to explain why they are different, but the same...

Starting with several females, I tried to select from fish of approximate size and age to eliminate developmental reason for variation. All females are semi-adults. This is a pair, but look at the female, this is a variation i notice a lot, displaying a whiter body coloration than that of the typical yellow of Bolivians. Facial banding and abdominal spot also prominent.










This female shows the classic yellow chest, mild facial markings, and some darker markings along the back. This strain is common in LFS.










This female displays a very consistant greenish coloration, very faint, almost nonexistent facial banding, a prominent abdominal spot, and a melon colored chest. I'll note this is the most productive female i have and the only one that can raise her own broods.










This female is displaying "stress" or "fright" coloration, however, I have noticed that there could be strains that display this coloration regularly despite their mood. A generally dark coloration, primarily along the back and around the abdominal spot, and mild facial banding. This probably the classic FLS strain IMO.










Here is a good example: I took this picture at the Georgia Aquarium. SO you can figure these Bolivians are established, well cared for, and every fish in this setup carries the dark coloration on their back and sides. It makes me think some strains are just prone to this coloration so often associated with stress.










Looking back at these pictures, it's hard to judge them or rate them based on phenotype. The second female i have been unable to breed, despite pairing with a male. I am afraid she is infertile. She is a good example of how the dominant looking female can prove to be poor genetically. While the small female in the third picture seems to carry quite productive and quality genes.

Speaking of males, here are three males that differ significantly from a phenotype standpoint. All males are young adults. The first male displays a lot of golden yellow on the chest and abdomen, and reddish coloration in his dorsal and caudal, and good red highlights. Seems like the yellow bodied strains tend to show their six transversal bars more often then other strains. You can see them faintly here, they are visible in the rear half of the body, behind the golden yellow chest. If you scroll back through the thread to page 22 to Blairs male, you can see them well in it too.










In comparison with the white bodied female already mentioned, here is a closer picture of the male from the same strain that also displays that coloration, however also displays a prominent yellow chest, and shows irridescent blue-green tint in his caudal and dorsal instead of red-orange. Also seems more pastel in color than is traditional.










This male is my third, and final male. He seems to be the middle ground between the two previous. Prominent yellow chest, generally lighter body color than is traditional, yet displays reddish color in the caudal and dorsal. Also doesn't quite have as soft of facial features as the two previous specimen.










Obviously, there are some notable variations among the species, it isn't surprising that some say their could be multiple forms or species. There are strains that could arguably be labelled "yellow" "white" "grey" and "something in the middle". Howevever, going back to my initial theory: It's hard to premise a different species on "species characteristics" that are not consistant within an individual. If you look at every image, and compare them all, they all have red lining of the dorsal and caudal fins, the first three membranes of the dorsal fin are black, the ventral fins display a red and blue streaking pattern, and the anal fin is red. These four universal characteristics are what I feel draw this species together, and set it as indeed, one species and one color form, that is present in many strains which account for the variation.

Comments, critic, whatever, is welcome :thumb:

Ed


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## Dutch Dude

Lbrevis,...welcome to the BRC 

Ed,....I agree with the first part. When it comes to the pics I have an other opinion based on experience with the specie. Except for the strain, environment, food and so on there is a difference in color depending on dominance. The fish with the strongest color are the most dominant fish. That could be the reason for the stronger colors and bars spots and total appearance of a fish. The fish with the (permanent) stress spots are mostly the fish at the bottom of the picking order or fish that are raised in poor conditions or in poor health.

What is your opinion abouth that?

Question,....in the pic the first female tends to have larger lips,..is that correct? And if so, is she from an Asian strain?

Ruurd


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## edburress

Ruurd...I think I made it sound too much like I think those coloration variants exist. I was mainly just providing pictures that would show why some people believe that, and then explaining why I thought that variation was attributable to strain or individual differences, not actual differences in the species. I didn't mention heirarchy however! I am glad you did, I haven't had the room to house a large shoal like you have, so what you say is good by me. You did mention that the fish that display the darker coloration, if not the fish on the bottom of the pecking order, are fish raised in poor condition, and of poor health. I think that's what I was getting at. I think we're on the same page :thumb:

The first female: her lips aren't like the picture shows, she's appropriately proportioned. But...the first and second female are probably asian fish IMO. The third female, and the first and third male pictured are the only ones I know are not.

Ed


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## Dutch Dude

Ed,....I do think to we are on the same page. There are so many reasons for the slight coloration and size differences that it is easy to forget something.

Some people like to have an unique fish,...a rare specie or a rare sized fish. This makes it stronger to believe there are several species. For example abouth a year ago there was some discussion abouth the shape of the spots. Perfect would be a one spot Bolivian with a diamond shape spot. Well,....I got quit some imagination but have problems to believe such a Bolivian exists. The change of a Bolivian with a diamond shaped spot is probably just as large as one with a yin yang shaped spot :wink: :lol: Much more important is the health of the fish overall appearance and the fun you got on maintaining the specie. To me a 2 spot isn't les beautiful as a one spot and yes,....the dominant stronger colored fish are more attractive to watch. One drawback,......there are some dominant fish that are quit territorial an have an attitude problem :wink: Blair got a pair of those and they just don't work out in a small shoal because of that. Luckily most Bolivians are mild and perfect to maintain in a small shoul of 5 or more (if the tank is large enough!) There are some bad strains with deformities and as for as my knowledge and experience goes they are the Asian farm fish. So watch out when buying those.

Sooo,.....someone have an other opinion abouth this??? And,...Blair,...were are you,...I'm sure you have an opinion on this subject :lol:


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## Terra Incognita

Ed, that write-up was very very informative, and I really appreciate it! A very interesting read, and one I'm definately going to print off for my own personal information collection if this is no problem with you?


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## edburress

Ruurd...hahaha :lol: a ying yang shaped spot would be something to see

Terra...of course, go right ahead


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## Dutch Dude

,....yes a ying yang shape spot would really be cool! Oooh and for your information,.....I got a bunch of youngsters and discovered one fish that almost has 3 spots. The second spot most close to the tail is split up leaving a very small patch. No no no, not a new specie but just a slightly different spot :wink:

If I succeed to take a pic I will add it on here. The change of a sharp pic is not that big in a grow out tank with approximately 80 youngsters :wink:


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## Fisherman451

Wow shock and horror looks like my 3 have settled in just fine, just in from work(midnight) and it looks like My Male and I think its No2 female have been busy...there are about 150 eggs on some slate in the bottom of the tank, Have only had them for just 2 weeks today so rather chuffed that they feel happy enough to try and raise a family.


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## edburress

Fisherman451...congrats! I'd love to see some pictures?? :thumb:


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## Fisherman451

Ill try and get a photo today if I can. One or two questions if anyone can help. As this was totally unexpected and therefore I dont have any other tank that I could move them to would it be possible to remove some of the eggs to a breeding trap to save them all getting eaten or would it be better to leave things to take their natural course and hope for a few survivors, also will it still be ok to do water changes as I am due to do my weekly change on sunday? Thanks in advance


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## Fisherman451

Ok here is a photo of the proud mother with her first attempt at spawning. The male seems to want nothing to do with her now!!!....watched them for about half an hour earlier and she was dutifully looking after the eggs while he stayed at the other end of the tank....flirting with the other female!!!!!!!

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1340892668&size=l


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## Fisherman451

Hopefully this will work as a link that will click this time
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1340892668&size=l


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## edburress

Fisherman451...I'll get you started on your questions until Ruurd can get you on the best track.

about removing the eggs: it depends on tankmates as to when you'll need to remove eggs/fry. Personally, I'd leave them alone and remove them after they hatch. but if you have cories or pleco, that might scavenge at night, you could lose some. but it sounds like the female is doing her job, so she'll be able to protect them during the day. You can always leave them alone until you notice losses. I would expect the male to take part in parental care after the eggs hatch, if not before.

about the water change: I think that sunday will be the day the eggs will hatch (after 70ish hours) so i'd make sure that isn't happening while you do the water change and it should be fine. I would just exchange water, and not vaccum the substrate, especially if the pair have constructed depressions to shelter the fry in.

goodluck :thumb:

Ed


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## Dutch Dude

Fisherman,....at first congratulations!

By now you can see if the eggs are fertilized. The color should be yellowish and a small black spot in the middle of each egg should also be visible. If the eggs become white and start to fungus they are not fertilized. I hope the parents raise the fry but in most cases the eggs or the fry from the first spawns get eaten by the parents. So for now I would wait and see what happens. Keep in mind that they spawned once and,...they will do it again. A good couple that feel secure and happy in a tank *can* spawn every 3 to 4 weeks 

About moving the eggs,....if they are fertile it is possible. You can arrange a small (10 gallon) tank with the same water parameters as the parents tank. The tank should be cycled!!! You have to put very carefully the stone with the eggs to the hatching tank. While moving the stone it should be in the water all the time. You can first put the stone in a can (in the parents tank), move the can with the stone to the hatching tank and take the stone out of the can. You have to put an air stone a few inch from the stone with the eggs and make some small bubbles so there will be a small water movement long side the eggs to provide the eggs with oxygen (normally the parents do this waving with their fins). If you are lucky they hatch. If you succeed you will have youngsters that don't know how to raise their fry because they don't learned it from their parents.

An other possibility is to take the fry out of the parents tank a few days after they become free swimming. I have done this with my fry and simply because the other tank mates snacked from the fry.

The best possibility is to let the parents raise the fry. It can take several spawns before they actually raise the fry and not eat them. If fry is parent raised they grow much faster and learn from the parents how to raise their own fry.

When the eggs hatch the fish can't swim (wigglers) and munch several day's on their yolk sack. When they become free swimming they need some food. Best is baby brine shrimp and some even raise their fry with Hikari first bites. I prefer the bbs and when the fish are 4 weeks old use First Bites as an additional food. They need a bbs feeding every 3 to 5 hours. When you raise the fry they will be at least 5 months at your home before they are large enough to sell.

So be aware that raising the fry is a lot of work for quit a long period because Bolivians are a slow growing specie.

About partial water changing,....I suggest to do more frequent small quantities so there won't be large temperature differences or changing parameters (PH, KH, GH) So for example every 2 days 15% of the total tank volume. Don't siphon and don't come neart the eggs and parents and be careful not to disturb the parents or make a mess causing dust and dirt on the eggs. Make sure there wont be large movements in the water!

Mom Bolivian will guard the eggs most of the time and waves them to provide them with fresh oxygen rich water. Dad guards the environment. Sometimes one of the parents doesn't do his job and the one parent takes all the work. It is possible that your male tries both the females and see witch one is the best parent and chose her to be his partner (for most of the time).

It is just a short description I made but every detail is on this treat somewhere around page 7 to 15. You can find all the detailed info there and other methods and experiences from the real experts like Blair and Cathy.

I hope this helps


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## Fisherman451

Ed and Dutch thanks for all the good information...its so good knowing there are people there who are happy to help complete newcomers like myself. I have read through all the posts and to be honest I would be very surprised if I get lucky on the first spawning...but if you had said to me that the parents would be settled in and ready to attempt to breed after just 2 weeks I would have been amazed....I am just happy that they must be happy with the environment I have provided for their home. I will keep you all informed as to how things work out over the next few days. Once again thanks for all the advice


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## Dutch Dude

Fisherman,....your welcome. Successful with the first spawn is very very rare but,...you never know! Good luck :thumb:


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## Ape-Fish

Incidentally - has anyone come across a German/Bolivian hybrid? Is that possible? Has anyone tried a tank with both fish? just wondering.


----------



## Dutch Dude

Hi Ape-fish. No I never seen or heard abouth a Bolivian / German hybrid (except for humans) :wink: If you look close the both species you see quit some differences and now both species are named Microgeophagus but I would not be surprised if they will each be a different specie in the future. So if you can put them in the same tank without crossbreeding.

If I'm correct Cathy (Katie Rose) kept both in one tank. You have to make a compromise with both species. Bolivians feel best at temperatures around 74 wile Rams feel best around 84. Rams need soft clean water wile the Bolivians tolerate much more and prefer neutral water. Rams are quit territorial wile the Bolivians are more mild.

So if the tank is large enough (35 or more for a pair of each) and well planted, it is doable. I suggest the temperature around 80 to 82, PH somewhere around 6 and KH 2 to 3.

The Bolivians have to make the biggest adaption but they are well capable of that and are quit tolerant and hardy.


----------



## Fisherman451

Well as predicted by many and suspected by me, the first time parents have not managed to suceed with their first attempt at parenthood. Came home from work last night and the eggs had all been eaten, although the female was still guarding the stone where they had been deposited. Oh well such is life and hopefully they will try again and be a bit more sucessfull.


----------



## Dutch Dude

Sorry to hear abouth the eaten eggs Fisherman but I'm sure they will spawn again. Hopefully you will have some more luck next time.


----------



## Terra Incognita

So here's a little update on my rescued little guy. He's in a 55g now with a Krib, some Convict fry, and a Bristlenose pleco.










He's doing much better than he was when I first saved him.


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## Dutch Dude

Good job Terra and keep on going. It will take some time for him to color up but with all the proper care and attention he will be a nice, healthy and beautiful colored fish! Keep on the good work :thumb:


----------



## Oscar boy

Im shore that this question will have already been answered throughout this thread however I really donâ€™t want to go through every post to find it. I was just wondering if anyone could show me how to sex Bolivians as I have just set up my tank and am going out to buy some later this week and would like to get 1 male and 3 females.
Any help would be grately appreciated

Cheers evan


----------



## blairo1

Hi Evan,

You can find my sexing guide here:

http://cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopi ... highlight=

Make sure you click the images to expand them to full size.

I had a family emergency so I've been away for a while, looks like you guys have had some interesting discussions. I have thoughts to add to this at a later date but at the moment my priority is getting the Bolivian Ram article to Eric. The sexing thread will be a part of that and finally we can get it up in an easy to find, permanent location.

Sorry it's taken so long but unfortunately I've had a lot on my plate recently. I'll be back with you all in the BRC as soon as I can.

Blair.


----------



## Terra Incognita

Sorry to hear about the problems, blairo. I hope everything turns out well for you!


----------



## Terra Incognita

I'm contemplating getting my rescued male a female from a batch of Wild Caughts that my LFS just got in a little while ago. After being alone so long, I'm kind of worried that the little guy will hurt her, and at $15 for a nicely colored wild Bolivian Ram, I'd hate to see her get torn up. Does anyone know if this would happen, or what would happen differently?


----------



## edburress

It is very rare for a bolivian to injure or hurt another fish. However, it is common for established bolivians to be aggressive towards new comers even if they are opposite sex. As long as she has a place to take cover, and there are sight breaks in the tank, she'll be just fine. It shouldn't take long for the chasing to turn into flirting :lol:

If it were me, I couldn't pass up a chance to get wild caughts :thumb:

Ed


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## Dutch Dude

I agree with Ed. Sorry Terra but I don't remember the size of your tank any more but if it is large enough (20 gallon) you could add several youngsters and select a nice pair and take the others back to the lfs. The price of $15 is quit high for Bolivians but I would pay it without complaining if I was able to get a hold of some wild specimens!!! I never seen them over here and as far as I know Bolivia rarely export wild caught fish.

Ruurd


----------



## Terra Incognita

The tank is a 55g with a Krib, BN Pleco, Bolivian, 15 Serpae Tetras, and a female Blue Ram (who will be put back into the GBR breeding tank soon).


----------



## spqrzilla

blairo1 said:


> Sorry it's taken so long but unfortunately I've had a lot on my plate recently. I'll be back with you all in the BRC as soon as I can.
> 
> Blair.


You've been missed. :thumb:


----------



## Dutch Dude

Terra,....the tank still has some room for more Bolivians so you could easely have 5 Bolivians in there. The only thing that worries me is the Krib. How does he get along with the other fish?


----------



## Terra Incognita

Dutch Dude said:


> Terra,....the tank still has some room for more Bolivians so you could easely have 5 Bolivians in there. The only thing that worries me is the Krib. How does he get along with the other fish?


That is what I'm worried about. I got my Krib on the false pretense that they were generally peaceful. He should have his own take, or I should throw him with my friend's RD! The day I brought him home, he decimated 6 Neon Tetras out of a (then) beautiful school of 15 in my 20long. After that, I had to house him temporary with a Yellow Lab couple, where he ended up killing the holding female. He has a terrible attitude, and now has his own section of the 55g that he rarely leaves. It's a large maze of rocks. The only fish allowed in without getting hassled is my BN Pleco.

I think I will wait a while, as long as needed, and then import a Wild Caught pair of Bolivians insted, when I have their own tank setup for them.


----------



## Dutch Dude

As the older members of the BRC probably know I have some youngsters from january this year. They are 8 months old now and this weekend I sold 22 of them to my lfs. The colors are nice and they are abouth 2 inch now. This evening during one of the feedings I noticed a female that was very territorial. Two hours later I knew why,...she just did her first spawn :lol: Well,....I was pleasantly surprised! Probably it will be eaten with 4 loricarids and abouth 40 of her brothers and sisters. The eggs are on a small piece of driftwood and I know it's not a great pic but at this angle I could take the female and the eggs in one shot.


----------



## WNC_Dave

Well i just finished reading through all the pages of this thread... only took 2 days. I have kept ram in the past but do not have any currently. I have a tank that they would be great in though. Will have to look for some around town.

Dave


----------



## Dutch Dude

Dave,....good choice and Bolivians are much hardier as the GBR. Be carefull with Asian farm fish because of the deformities that occur due to medications. But,...I'm sure you did read abouth it the past 2 days :lol:


----------



## edburress

Ruurd...the youngsters look great! She looks very intent on defending hers!

Dave...where are you in WNC? Unfortunantly, there aren't too many places to find Bolivians in the area.

Ed


----------



## Dutch Dude

Yes she was defending the eggs heavily but,.....could not handle two Loricarids. They ate the eggs a few hours later. Not a big problem because I can't have fry in my grow out tank right now. She was the first to spawn and I guess there will be more soon, haha!

If you like I can put some pics on here of the youngsters.


----------



## edburress

Ruurd...I'd love to see some pictures. I remember when I first joined this forum reading through this thread and seeing the pictures of your batch on the early pages.

I have a group at about 5/8" still in a bare bottom tank, so my camera cannot sort out a focal point with all the glare, but as soon as they grow a bit more, I'll move them into a bigger tank with substrate and should be able to get good shots. I'll be sure to post them.

The same parents are guarding another clutch, so I am going to be swimming in babies soon :lol:

Ed


----------



## WNC_Dave

Ed
I am right outside of Asheville. I have looked around a bit. found some other rams but not any good Bolivians.

Any recommendations?

Dave


----------



## edburress

Dave

Unfortunantly, the nicer shops around Asheville don't carry bolivians at all. I have sold a lot of fish to WNC Imports, not bolivians, but apistos and kribs and I really like the people there but I don't think I have ever seen a Bolivian in their shop. Everything Fishy had some the last time I was there that potentially could have been Chezh bred fish, which are better than asian bred, but you would have to ask to make sure. The chain stores are the only places that regularly carry Bolivians, such as petsmart, but they are likely the asian bred fish. You've read the whole thread so I won't tell you the difference in strains :lol:

If you're not in a rush, I have two generations of offspring right now. I am only interested in keeping a hand full of them, so you're welcomed to some. They'll need to grow a few more months though. mom and dad are pictured in my tanks section.

Ed


----------



## cichlidaholic

Well, it took me awhile to read all the way through, too! :lol:

Talk about some passion for your fish!

I have two pairs, very young at less than 2 inches. One pair recently spawned, but much to my dismay I didn't realize it until they were free swimming and I saw this tiny "cloud" hovering around the parents. Thanks to counselling from Ruurd, we siphoned most of the fry out and are raising them in a seperate tank. The ones left in the main tank have slowly dwindled away, and there are only a few left. But the ones in the nursery tank are doing great. We're feeding them bbs and Hikari First Bites, and doing daily water changes.

These little guys have stolen my heart! After keeping mbuna for years, it was captivating to watch those two tiny parents defend their little brood...

I believe my second pair are also preparing to spawn, and may have already. They chose an area pretty deep in the plants, and have been very hard to see for the past few days.

Kim


----------



## WNC_Dave

Ed I agree. I used to go to Carolina Specialty Pets out in Hendersonville, but once they closed shop, I have not found a really good shop either. I go into WNC Imports and look around. I picked up some angels from them and most of them died. They did have some nice cichlids when i was in there last time(Maybe yours). Let me know when yours are old enought, I may take you up on the offer. I have a 55 with small angels in it right now that i want to ad some to and a 55 for africans that I have not stocked yet(got to rearrange my office).

Dave


----------



## Dutch Dude

Ed,... I can't add high quality pics but I will shoot some by the end of the week and add them over her. There is quit a difference between the small wigglers on the early pages and the young adults they become.

I also keep the fry in a small (half filled 15 gallon tank) bare bottom tank. More easy to clean and more easy for the fish to catch some bbs. I moved them to a 35 gallon when they were abouth 3 months and moved them to a 55 when they were 5 months.

I'm interested in pics of your fry to and would be nice! May I ask how old your fry is? I first was thinking my fry were behind on grow schedule but when I contacted Cathy (Katie Rose) abouth it they were nice on schedule. I just sold the first fish and the lfs told me that I could have sold them a few months ago. I did not and wanted to please the new owners with nice looking good colors young adults in stead of the skinny, tiny fish I see so often in the shops. The side effect is that the fry are spawning :lol:

Well,...this gives me the benefit to select the best for my own.

Kim,...It is nice to hear you have so much fun and are pleased with the Bolivians. They are really nice fish and show some very interesting and fun behaviour and show some nice brood care. Unfortunately most fry in the parents tank didn't made it but if some of them survive they will be the strongest from the batch. Good to hear the other fry are doing so well. Have you seen the yellow bellies yet (coused by feeding plenty bbs)???


----------



## cichlidaholic

We counted 7 left in the main tank with the parents, both are now allowed to stand guard again, although earlier in the week one was determined to run the other parent off. Must have been a marital squabble, because they seem fine guarding together now. 

I've got a feeling it's going to be awhile before I see those yellow bellies! Magnifying glass or not, I just see little swimming dots!

Kim


----------



## Dutch Dude

So they sort out their marital problems and you know what comes after a fight don't you? I give it 4 weeks for the next spawn :wink:

Hahaha,....so not even with the magnifying glass? Did you tried the Hubble telescope yet?  Did you know he is wearing glasses to? But serious now,...how abouth your husband,...can he see the bellies? It is always a nice check-up abouth their feeding. Did it succeeded with the visiting family member and the nauply starr?


----------



## cichlidaholic

Yes, she is going to send us one as soon as she gets back later this month! Hopefully they will have them in stock!

My husband has the same problem I have. He can't see too well, either!

They are all over the tank, and the numbers don't seem to be diminishing much!

We're having a BBQ this weekend for some of our fish geek friends...I'll get one of the younger ones to tell me what colour their little bellies are. (I sure hope they don't tell me that it's just dirt in the water and no fry! :lol: )

Kim


----------



## Dutch Dude

:lol: :lol: :lol: no lets not hope the black dots are dirt in stead of fry, :lol: :lol: :lol:

So she arrange the hatchery :thumb:

Ooh that sounds like a nice party Kim!


----------



## cichlidaholic

Yep, just a bunch fish geeks and smoked ribs and good food! Come on over! 

Kim


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## Dutch Dude

Hahaha I would love to Kim but the journey,...I think the ribs will end as carbon before I am at your place. Well,...I wish you and your fishy friends lots and lots of fun :wink:


----------



## edburress

Ruurd...my fry are 3 weeks old. average size is probably 1/2" TL. Their fins look to be developing really well.

But I could be a little off it is hard to judge when they are mostly transparent :lol:

Ed


----------



## blairo1

Pictures Ed!!!!

We need pictures!


----------



## cichlidaholic

I'm just looking forward to being able to "see" my fry at all! I hate getting old!

Blair, I have babies!

Kim


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## blairo1

Wahey!

Congrats Kim, I was actually just trying to catch up with everything I've missed these past two weeks. I finished going through your thread and thought I'd PM you to say well done and congrats.

They've done it now, you do realise that once they start they don't want to stop! Hehe, so how many are holding out so far? The Rams are looking great in your pics.

You mentioned having issues with the plants, it's a shame you didn't get to see the fry before they were free swimming - many times I have found that my pair have "pruned" a bit of leaf from a plant to cover the fry in their pit. It's very sweet and funny to watch them do this, it's also pretty convenient - they gather all the bits and bobs and put them in one place for you, so once the fry leave you can suck it all up :lol:.

Well you don't need to worry about that for now - your hands are going to be full with buzzing, bubbling, energetic young Bolivian rams! Sorry to hear about your problems at your end, I've had much the same here, hence my time away from the board.

I hope the Bolivians keep you nice and busy, it is an exciting time.

.


----------



## cichlidaholic

Thanks, Blair...

Thanks to Ruurd, we siphoned most of the fry out to a nursery tank, and those are doing really well. There are only a few left in the main tank with the parents, even though we left about 50 in there. I wanted to give them the whole "parenting experience", and I've enjoyed it so much that I'm moving them to their own tank soon. There are another pair in there with them that may have spawned inside a coconut shell, they are both inside and rarely come out, and if they do they don't go much past the door.

This was my first time with parents that actually care for their fry, so it's been a real experience for me! What ferocious little things they are when anything comes near the fry! They won my husband over when he went to siphon out the fry and the parents starting attacking the hose...Up until then, he wasn't overly excited about them, and now they have his full attention! 

Kim


----------



## Dutch Dude

Ed,....ooh they are just a bit older as the fry of Kim! The fins are indeed transparent and it will take some time before the first red is visible. Well Ed,...Blair has a point there,....how abouth a pic,...you got some talent for that so I'm trusting in your skills. When can we expect the first pics? :wink:

Kim,....Unfortunately you didn't have seen the fry and only some moving black dots :wink: and it will take some time to! Bolivians are slow growing but they make a spurt somewhere between the 6 and the 12 weeks.

Blair,.....you missed quit some nice discussions and we missed your comments. Glad you are back on the board again bud 

Unfortunately not great pics but here the promised pics of the fry


----------



## blairo1

Ah Ruurd, so when are you going to send me a couple so I can mix them with my bloodline.....

Lovely little fish.


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## blairo1

Who thinks I will be getting more fry soon?

Hey Kim, like you, mine are getting their own tank in a couple of days so I can get them to raise a batch for me, they of course have different plans.


----------



## Dutch Dude

Thanks Blair for the nice comment. Well you would a bunch for fre but I gues they will cost a fortune on getting them there don't you think :wink:

Hmmm,...bloodworm time Blair!

Oooh and Blair,...I have had eggs of one of the fry that has being eaten by 2 loricarids


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## Dutch Dude

Kim,....did you seen Blair his latest post on the Bolivian profile discussion? Finally you can see how fry look like  :lol:


----------



## blairo1

:lol:

Owza!


----------



## cichlidaholic

Dutch Dude said:


> Kim,....did you seen Blair his latest post on the Bolivian profile discussion? Finally you can see how fry look like  :lol:


Blair, in case you haven't noticed, Ruurd seems to be having alot of fun with the fact that I cannot see well up close. :lol:

If I hadn't noticed that little cloud of fry from across the room, I would have never known they spawned!

I'll get my friend to take pics of my fry this weekend and we'll compare them to Blairs. (Great pics, by the way!)

Kim


----------



## blairo1

Ah I think he's just jealous he couldn't make it to your BBQ, I know I am.

:lol:


----------



## edburress

Ruurd...the youngsters look great!!! Too bad there is a huge ocean between us, I would love to have some!!! :lol:

Well, like I said my fry are about 1/2" and I don't have substrate in their growout tank so my camera has a real hard time focusing on the little guys because of the glare. It hurts to post such bad pictures but here are the best that I could manage...if you click to view the bigger image they are slightly better.

This little guy is gunning for Mr Bolivian 2008 :lol: :lol: :lol: 


















I'll get better pictures when they grow a bit.

Ed


----------



## spqrzilla

Wow, I wish I could talk Ruurd into sending me a female for my boys.


----------



## blairo1

:lol: Ed,

Yeah he's a beaut in that first pic. I'm putting my money on that being a female though. Well give it about 5-6 months and we can find out.

We could always have a King and Queen of the year too for those fancy couples.

How are your fish doing *spqrzilla*.


----------



## Dutch Dude

Thanks Ed and Spqrzilla. I would love to exchange some of my fish with yours to get a new line or just give away some but that will cost a fortune to get them there :wink:

Ed,...the pics aren't as bad as my pics of the fry tank so nothing to be ashamed at. They look nice and do look quit big for their age. Nice little fish Ed :thumb:


----------



## Supercoley1

Well I'll be the newest member then please.

Only bought what I thought was a pair yesterday, then thought were both male, then today thought they were bot female, then a pair again.

So I'm not sure.

This thread has also given me something to try on my camera. I bought a 10mp Casio Exilim Z1050 2 months ago and although its **** good outside taking pics of the kids, I can't get close ups with macro mode on of the fish they just come out blurred. So I think I'll get the tripod out and reduce the the ISO (or whatever it was. lol) and then crop. see if that makes a difference.

Maybe then I can show you their vents. lol

Good read this article I am half way through and thought I'd post then carry on reading.

Andy


----------



## Dutch Dude

Welcome Andy :thumb:

Well,....taking pics whit such a nice camera must succeed  I take pics with a Sony Ericsson mobile camera/phone (3.2 mp) and that has its limitations. I turn out the flash and take the pics at night. Turn all the lights in the room off so there wont be reflections. I use the normal mode and not the macro mode. In stead of that I come close to the glass. When you just sit in front of the tank the fish become exited and beg for food. When you wait for 10 to 15 minutes they don't pay much attention to you and it will be more easy to take a pic. Oooh and did you know there is a separate section on this board for taking pics?

Good luck Andy :thumb:


----------



## Supercoley1

I will have a look but be warned about my abilities with a camera:

I have been a member on TFF since October and still have got no further
I have been a member on barreport and APC since January and still have got no further
Now I'm a member of UKAPS (UK Aquatic Plant Society) and still no better.

Not really great at cameras. lol but still willing to try to learn.

(p.s. can you tell I'm into plants. lol - these fish will have to get usedto changing their surroundings every year or 2)

Wil post pics ofthe tank when it starts to grow through properly.

Andy


----------



## spqrzilla

blairo1 said:


> How are your fish doing *spqrzilla*.


 I lost one of my Bolivians for unknown reasons but the remaining two are doing well. I'm trying to figure out how to find a female.


----------



## spqrzilla

Dutch Dude said:


> Thanks Ed and Spqrzilla. I would love to exchange some of my fish with yours to get a new line or just give away some but that will cost a fortune to get them there :wink:


Unfortunately it would be prohibitive indeed, but more to the topic, I've got little in the way of decent fish genes to tempt you to trade sadly.


----------



## Dutch Dude

Andy,....keep on trying dude and I would love to see some pics of the fish and,...the planted tank!

Spqrzilla,.....sorry to hear you lost one of the fish! Strange she died! Did you noticed something abouth the fish or her behaviour?


----------



## Over_Stocked

Could someone check out my thread to offer me some help with my "sick" bolivian: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... highlight=

I know this isn't the norm but Having just got these bolivians I'm a little more worried than normal, and in 15 years of keeping fish I've only had to deal with disease a few times...


----------



## Supercoley1

I posted these pics in another thread but thought the club might like to see them.

The Rams have been in the tank between 1 and 4 days in these pictures taken on Sun, Mon,Tues,Weds earlier this week.

























And this is their new home:

















Thanks for welcoming me to the club. I am proud to be a member and am overjoyed I git these fish (I was looking for blues but saw these and thought their more subtle colours were much nicer)

Andy


----------



## cichlidaholic

They look great, Andy! I'm sure you'll see some intensity to those "subtle" colours before long!

So much personality in such a tiny fish...I hope you like them as much as I like mine!

Kim


----------



## Supercoley1

They were nicely coloured up in the LFS. I meant subtle in comparison to the blues with their Neon felcks and swathes of colouring.

I can't wait for these to get more intense but think I made the right choice in not buying blues as I already have cardinals in the tank so subtle contrasts them quite nicely

Andy


----------



## edburress

Over_Stocked...since Ruurd or Blair haven't responded yet, I'll offer my thoughts. Flashing can occur after water changes or introducing new fish, which is said to be related to changes in water hardness. So, it is not necessarily a sign of coming disease, such as ich. I observed this with some of my bolivians when they were new, and I have never had a bolivian get sick. If the fish are new, I wouldn't treat them if it is not necessary. Bolivians are tough fish and I would be willing to guess they are fine, and just getting adjusted to their environment. Even if their color is not good, as long as they eat good and are social, they are most likely fine. I'd wait and see how it develops.

Supercoley1...very nice tank :thumb:

Ed


----------



## Dutch Dude

Overstucked,.....The fish aren't skinny and look fine,...except for the small black dots all over their body (stress spots). How abouth the temperature and KH and GH?

One thing is for sure,..they are stressed. The new environment is probably one reason and an other one could be a change in water.

Unfortunately flashing can be a first sign for Ich so I suggest to watch them closely. An other reason for flashing can be parasites like Gyriodactus or dactylogyrus. With those two bugs the fish will breath more heavy. Sometimes Planaria can cause flashing to but they are harmless worms that can be on the fish and causing itching. They are sometimes visible on the glass if you watch very closely. They are very tiny 1/10 inch and are white or transparent.

How abouth the other fish?

I would watch them closely and just like Ed mentioned,..watch them and see what happens.

I hope Ed is right and it is indeed change in water hardnes. But for now there isn't a reason to be woried to much. Just observe them daily and pleas report us if you see something strange or new. This isn't a illnes treat BUT,...it's abouth Bolivians so no problem at all. 

Andy,...thanks for sharing the pics. Your fish will color up but that will take some time. They first have to beef up a bit more and with a good diet they will show some good colors in the near future.


----------



## Over_Stocked

The Temp is 77 degrees (F) and my test kit seems to be missing the cards for kh/gh so I went by the horrible test strips to get a "soft" rating.

They don't seem to be eating that great, but that doesn't scare me as that seems to be common in new fish, so I'm feeding lightly.

None of the other fish have shown any signs yet, though the lone angel(which I think I'm going to give up--since it's mate died about a month ago) is sulking some... but has been since it's mate died.

One thing that I do have a question about--if it does turn out to be ick--and lets hope it's not, can I use salt/heat treatment? I have neons in this tank as well and have heard they don't tolerate it at theraputic levels?


----------



## Dutch Dude

The Bolivians probably tolerate the salt heath treatment. If not they already were weakened. I would stick to 3 days and slowly go back to normal temps. As for the neons,....I don't know and never had them in higher temps. I got bad experiences with the neons,...they are not as hardy as some say.

You could also treat Ich with methylene blue. This is a mild medicine and doesn't kill all your bacteria in the tank. In most cases it works quit efficiently. Most Ich treatment contain several medication and also treat for fungus and bacterial infections that could appear as secondary illness. I would not suggest to treat with those meds because those will kill most bacteria. I suggest to use those meds only if realy necessary.

How are things going right now???


----------



## Supercoley1

Neons and Cardinals are in fact very sensitive fish and I'm not sure why they are considered ideal for your first tank.

IMO and from many other posters on other forums I frequent they should be only added to a tank when it fully balanced not just cycled but when it has fully matured so there are no major fluctuations.

They are all too often the first fish to be put in a tank probably because they are so cheap.

Andy


----------



## Terra Incognita

Nice to see you on Cichlid-Forum from APC, Andy.


----------



## Dutch Dude

Andy,....the problems aren't with the neons but with the Bolivians,...and they can handle quit a bit. Neons are perfectly suitable as companion to Bolivians because they need the same conditions and don't like high temps like Cardinals do. Neons are nice looking small fish and in a smaller tank they display nicely if kept in a schooll of at least 12 fish. They are sensitive fish if it comes to Ich. The main reason is that it takes a loooooong time from the catch to the lfs. There are captive breed neons but they are more expensive (doubled prices) and most of them come from Asian farms and of poor quality coused by hormones and premedication. Well,....my returning Ich problem with a large school of neons is solved a long time ago by my big male Bahia red :wink:


----------



## Terra Incognita

Well I finally found a local place that has ALOT of Dwarf Cichlids (Apistos, Mic(k)rogeophagus, alot of various Kribs), and they happened to have Bolivians. All of their tanks were in perfect condition, and I noticed something peculiar about the Bolivians. They had no spot, none at all. Is this normal? I thought it to be odd, and so I held off on buying a pair (and insted got some Apistogrammas I've never seen before). But, here is an updated (albeit bad) picture of my old guy (estimated to be about 3 years old as it turns out!) that I saved from a big chain megapet. Don't worry, his mouth isn't deformed. I just caught him in a yawn.


----------



## Over_Stocked

Supercoley1 said:


> Neons and Cardinals are in fact very sensitive fish and I'm not sure why they are considered ideal for your first tank.
> 
> IMO and from many other posters on other forums I frequent they should be only added to a tank when it fully balanced not just cycled but when it has fully matured so there are no major fluctuations.
> 
> They are all too often the first fish to be put in a tank probably because they are so cheap.
> 
> Andy


In my expereince they aren't as sensitive as cardinals. Also, this isn't a new tank. I've had it set up over a year and have been keeping tanks for 15 years--but some how I've managed to avoid ich and beings I just got my bolivians I'm a bit nervous.

My neons have survived a year without losing one fish. I finally lost an angel about a month ago but he was pretty old to start with.

Dutch--I can't update on my fish as I'm away for the weekend. I won't be back till tomorrow and will give a full update on the status then.


----------



## Supercoley1

I've never experienced ich fortunately but I have had fish like danios that were always flicking and it was nearly always after water changes.

Maybe thats what it is.

I've never kept my cardinals at high temps. My tank is set to 24 but is normally 25-26 due to the lights in the day and the UV at night.

After water changes it goes down to 21-23 as I use cold water (to get my plecs and Otos at it)

I have however lost 9 cardinals this year when a moss wall attempt turned out to be a fish trap.

The others all have nice colours in their 24Âº water. What temp are they supposed to be at?

Andy


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## Dutch Dude

Terra....hmm,..no spot,....were they pail in color? Showing the spot and the other black markings also depend on mood. When 2 males quarrel abouth territory there colors will be stronger and also the spot and black markings. Sometimes they can fade the spot to a blueish color that comes close to the blueish lines on the tail end so it is hard to see. Did they look healthy to you? If so I won't be worried. Funny pic by the way,...looks like he is bored and lays with his head on the stone :lol: How is he doing?

Over-stocked,.....lets keep fingers crossed now and hopefully they turn to be alright.

Andy,...are you talking abouth Java moss on the background? If so I know people who don't have the fish trap issue with it and I have had it my selves on the tank floor (for the shrimp to take shelter) and have had no problems with this. Could it be that the fish died and floated towards the back and afterwords get trapped? Cardinals do best on higher temps and that why they are good tank mates for Discus. If a fish is maintained at the edge of themps they tolerate they become week and die rapidly. So maybe this was the problem. Also the temperature swings (adding cold tap water) won't benefit your Amazon fish! Some breeders do a temperature drop to induce spawning but that's not within several minutes but spread over some day's. Oto's don't like the swings to and need a stable water quality (specie that slowly adapts).

The temp for Cardinals should be around 26. The Oto's and Bolivians will tolerate this also. I suggest to do the water changes with tap water at the same temperature as the water in the tank.


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## Supercoley1

It was the plastic mesh that I was using that was the problem not the moss. (I was using christmas moss)

The cardinals would find a gap at the edge and get trapped behind there. I also had 2 Otos that got their heads stuck in the holes of the mesh.

One I rescued but the other I tried to rescue only to find all the head already consumed by MTS!!!

I promptly removed it and have had no deaths since apart from 1 cardinal that didn't make the scape changeover.

Andy


----------



## blairo1

I'd be careful with that difference in water temperature with your water changes Andy, especially with fish like neons and cardinals, it will shock them. I'm glad you've seemingly had no issues using that method, but I do urge you to at least think about doing it differently.

I assume (I hate assumptions, correct me if I'm wrong) you are not gradually pouring the new water in and allowing it to mix in a bit before you add a little more, in which case when you put that water in a current of cold water will pass over the fish very suddenly and this is really not doing them a lot of good.

I myself have used the cool water method to simulate rainwater (using actual rainwater) in order to initiate spawning, but that water is at a maximum of 1 degree cooler (I sit it with powerheads and heaters) and I introduce it with an air hose so the rate of addition is very gradual. I still have lots of success with this method as even the difference of 1 degree seems plentiful.

I have introduced water at 2 degrees cooler with the same method but had almost identical results - the most significant factor in the initiation of spawning was due more to the softness of the water being added (rain water) rather than temperature.

I know this because I have done similar tests with cooler water but with parameters matched to the tank (ie not softer, lower pH) and saw only the effect of a water change on my fish (fish that were wanting to spawn). The temperature may well signal the change in seasons to the fish, but it is the softness of the water (in SA fish) that they seem to wait for to show that the spawning season has begun - higher rain fall means larger quantities of soft water flow into streams, into rivers....

This influx of softer water is PERFECT for their eggs to hatch in and so the spawning begins.

Test it for yourself - I bet you'll find that you have equal, if not more success by adding small quantities of rainwater (or RO) than you would by adding quite significantly cooler tap water which has the similar KH GH to your tank. Like I said, the temperature can be a little cooler, but a degree is all I've ever seemed to need, the softness has played the more important part, acting as the trigger.

----------------

*Terra*, I'd personally avoid a fish with no spots, but that's just because I don't think it would look quite as nice - my male Bolivian that you have seen, on his one side he has the "perfect" diamond spot,









On the otherside......









So this is why I want to breed him, because he is the ideal fish if it were only that he had his diamond spot on both sides. It's a small imperfection, but I can live with it :lol:. Of course the spot doesn't have to be diamond shaped or have clean, sharp edges, but when *I* choose a Bolivian this is what *I* look for. Other people will prefer double spots or more rounded spots etc. At the end of the day it's your choice, but the spot is what completes the Bolivian for me.


----------



## Terra Incognita

Dutch Dude said:


> Terra....hmm,..no spot,....were they pail in color? Showing the spot and the other black markings also depend on mood. When 2 males quarrel abouth territory there colors will be stronger and also the spot and black markings. Sometimes they can fade the spot to a blueish color that comes close to the blueish lines on the tail end so it is hard to see. Did they look healthy to you? If so I won't be worried. Funny pic by the way,...looks like he is bored and lays with his head on the stone :lol: How is he doing?


The Bolivians in the store looked perfectly healthy. I watched them eat, they weren't skinny or chubby, all the rest of their colours were excellent, and they had the longest tail extentions I've ever seen, and the rest of the fish in the store were in absoulutely perfect health. But no spot. I found it odd. As for my guy, he's doing good. I added two large amazon swords to "his side" of the tank for him to hang around in, and he seems to be enjoying it. I've finally got him to eat Hikari Bio-Gold+, which makes life easier, and he seems happier, too.


----------



## Supercoley1

When I do my water change I siphon the water out a bucket at a time (or in the case of this setup 1 bucket) and then fill up the bucket from the cold tap and siphon it back in.

It takes 3-5 mins for the bucket to siphon back in but it doesn't disturb my sand which is why I do it this slow way.

The cardinals tend to head straight for the area the water is and play in it.

Yesterday the dominant bolivian was nosing sround this area too.

The temp went from 25ÂºC before I turned filter and heater off to 22ÂºC after I had added the water (its pretty cold here at the mo) but they stil played in this area while I returned the water and then I turned the filter and the heater back on.

They kept their colours and didn't seem stressed (and my plecs were at it bigstyle for a long while after)

I guess the reason I don't get the eggs from the plecs is either the soft water part you are talking about or that they just get eaten (as they would lay them on the glass and not hidden at all)

Andy


----------



## Dutch Dude

Terra,....to me the spot is les important than for Blair. I don't think a 2 spot isn't as beautiful as 1 spot and a diamond shape doesn't do for me what it does for Blair. To me the most important thing is the health of the fish and their total appearance. I can't realy tell why they don't have or don't show there spots. All the fish the same??? So in the worst case you end up with a Bolivian without a lateral spot. Long extensions only occur with full grown fish. Probably they are at least a year old. Well,...buying them or not buying them must be your decision. If you don't trust it, just don't buy them. I havent seen them so it is quit hard to give a proper advice.

Andy,...I'm a bit confused,....is it correct that you siphon one bucket out and replace it by one bucket and do the same thing again? Why do you take out the filter and the heater during the water changes?


----------



## Supercoley1

I used to do 50% water changes as I was using the EI method on the previous scape.

I would remove 4 buckets and the water level would be mid tank. I would then replace the 4 buckets using the sihon so approx 20 mins to put it in with the house temp bringing it up slightly.

I now remove 1-2 buckets then replace with syphon.

If I turn the cannister filter off it is to clean it or if the pipes look dirty (The in and out are glas and I tend to clean them every 2-3 weeks.

The heater is a Hydor ETH-200 inline external and requires flowing water through it so I have to turn that off as well.

Andy


----------



## andrew__

I noticed something strange from my rams yesterday - they have divided the brood and both are guarding separate groups of wrigglers.


----------



## Terra Incognita

Dutch Dude said:


> Terra,....to me the spot is les important than for Blair. I don't think a 2 spot isn't as beautiful as 1 spot and a diamond shape doesn't do for me what it does for Blair. To me the most important thing is the health of the fish and their total appearance. I can't realy tell why they don't have or don't show there spots. All the fish the same??? So in the worst case you end up with a Bolivian without a lateral spot. Long extensions only occur with full grown fish. Probably they are at least a year old. Well,...buying them or not buying them must be your decision. If you don't trust it, just don't buy them. I havent seen them so it is quit hard to give a proper advice.


I was just wondering if the lack of a spot was considered a bad thing health-wise. I know some of my Cichlids will loose some of their markings if they're in bad health. But everything else in the shop was near perfect condition, and everything was well taken care of, and since the rest of the ram was brightly colored, I can only imagine that this just happened to be a no spotted line. If I go back soon, I may consider picking up a pair.


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## blairo1

Supercoley1 said:


> I used to do 50% water changes as I was using the EI method on the previous scape.
> 
> I would remove 4 buckets and the water level would be mid tank. I would then replace the 4 buckets using the sihon so approx 20 mins to put it in with the house temp bringing it up slightly.
> 
> I now remove 1-2 buckets then replace with syphon.
> 
> If I turn the cannister filter off it is to clean it or if the pipes look dirty (The in and out are glas and I tend to clean them every 2-3 weeks.
> 
> The heater is a Hydor ETH-200 inline external and requires flowing water through it so I have to turn that off as well.
> 
> Andy


Andy, you are doing what I do, but we have a difference.


I turn off my filters on the tank.
I turn off my heaters.
I syphon out 50% of the water, pour this into my garden.
Then I use a 2 gallon bucket (yep) and I fill this with water that is matched to 26.8C.
I have a digital thermo to constantly monitor the tank, which runs at 27C, ambient room temp is 22C, so quite a difference. 
I see a drop to 26.8 after about 15 mins without adding water, hence why I add water at 26.8C.
I do this with each 2 gallon bucket - temp match, pour in slowly etc until I have replaced all 25 gallons.
I never see a fluctuation greater than .2-.4 of a degree with this method and it's not the quickest.

Which brings me to my suggestion/question - why not temp match the water you add?

It's a very easy thing to do and it saves you having a fluctuation (a rapid fluctuation, which it is) of 3-4C. That swing in temperature really isn't a whole lot of good for your fish mate! I'm sure they'll tolerate it, but trust me on this one.

-------------------

*Terra*
The spot is not a reflection of health, it is purely a marking that can occur in many differing ways - 2 spots, 1 spot, no spot, messy spot, clean spots - it's all down to genetic "luck of the draw" as far as we can tell. I do want to find out what happens if I try to selectively breed them for spots, but I almost guarantee a one spot male and female will still throw out two spot fry and two spots vice versa, no matter how many times I line bred them.

I put "perfect" in quotation marks to try and reflect some irony in the statement - what is perfect? To me a single diamond spot, to you maybe no spots, to Ruurd a female Bolivian with plump lips and a nice handbag is the winner....

:lol:

If the fish are healthy and show good finnage and physique then get them, chances are if you breed them you will find yourself with plenty of spotted fry.

Blair.


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## pk333

to Ruurd a female Bolivian with plump lips and a nice handbag is the winner....

rotflmao

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

what colour and how high are her stileto's?


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## Dutch Dude

Andy,....OK it is clear now why you turn the filter and the heater out and thought this was just a routine but it is only to clean it.

Andrew,....hmmm,...never heard of them splitting up! But maybe they have marital problems just like those of Kim had :wink: I guess this won't be a problem as long as the take good care of the fry.

Terra,....well I can imagine that the Bolivians aren't happy in the shop (probably a bare tank and only a thin layer of gravel). So it can be their mood not showing the spot. I wish I could give you a good advice abouth it but it is hard to do without seeing them.

Blair :lol: :lol: :lol: you forgot the nice round rear section  I certainly like the hotlips :lol:

Peter,.....nice boots with a mini skirt are more my thing :lol: Guys guys guys,....I try to behave and manage it and you just put it at the board :wink:

Blair,...I agree,...health is the most important thing and the spots,....more personal taste. I''m still looking for the ying yang shape spot :wink:


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## Supercoley1

Blairo

The 50% change was on the previous setup on full EI

This setup is only 10-20% so there isn't a whole lot of change but I do turn the heater & filter off every now and again while I clean the pipes.

The filter is cleaned every 2 months or so.

My temp is set at 24ÂºC but with lights and UV is normally about 25ÂºC so the heater hardly ever needs to kick in.

When I water changed this week with the 10% the temp dropped 1ÂºC

I use cold water because I have copper pipes in this house so I can't really just use hot water and also I have 2 very young children under my feet so speed is alwaysof the essence.

Son't want to be half way through temp matching and 1 wake up then I forget to turn the filter or heater on etc.

Andy


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## blairo1

> I use cold water because I have copper pipes in this house


Explains a lot, I didn't realise you were changing quite such a small quantity - the overall effect of that small amount of new water being cooler is pretty insignificant,so it's not really an issue by the sounds of things.

That and the kids thing, fish is one thing, fish and kids, no thank you! :lol:


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## Supercoley1

You should see the artistic wet finger smears with bits of biscuit and chocolate I get on the front of the tank!!!

Now there is something a lot of others can't boast.

Also external heaters I have found are a 'must be monitored at all times item'

They have a red coloured dial and an LED and sem to be a magnet for little fingers so every hours someone has to make sure it isn't set to 17 or 35. lol

Andy


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## edburress

I am in the process of setting up a few new tanks and felt the need to share one...I've had this tank going for about two months, holding extraneous fish. But my bolivian community was getting so chaotic with two pairs spawning, tetras spawning, and last week the angels I was growing out spawning. They all needed to be spilt up and provided space to do their thing. I have not had any luck isolating pairs of bolivians in the past, IME they seem to do better and spawn more in a competitive environment. But I feel this male is uncharacteristically aggressive which is the main problem with isolating him with a female. But I am not keen on having to remove fry immediately and raising fish that will be poor parents. So I've been leaving broods of 100+ with their parents until they are only 20 or so remaining, and removing those. Certainly makes growout easier but I want the fish to raise their offspring. So I set up this 20g tank for my best male, and his chosen young female. They've been in the tank for three days and are starting to court. They've been spawning every 3 1/2 weeks, so they are due soon. 








I just put a few medium sized amazon swords in. I don't have much of a green thumb and find it easier if I just use a few, hardy plants. The bolivians love to dig down into the root systems and shelter wrigglers there. 








I placed several pieces of slate near the front of the tank for spawnign sites, and to be condusive to taking photos  Although, last time I thought I was being clever and did that, they dug down to the slate platform that anchors the branch, and spawned there :lol: where I could not see. But typically they will spawn on these stones, and will dig pits between the pieces of slate as the first nest for the wrigglers when they hatch, before transporting them to the base of plants., which they seem to prefer.
Here is the male flaring his gills at me while I take pictures of his offspring :lol: 








The flash on my camera washes out some of the deeper coloration, here is a poor picture, but without flash that shows his true "courting" coloration.








I have bought a new camera, and have taken better pictures of my fry, but am having problems uploading them, so as soon as that gets worked out, I'll post them.

I had 1m and 2f bolivians 3 years ago that would breed fairly regularly, at the time I was breeding Apistos so the bolivians were not given the attention they deserved. I kept good notes about them, but didn't make any great efforts to raise the fry. Then because of racing I was forced to get rid of all my fish, including those bolivians because I had to be gone for long periods of time. Then 1 1/2 years ago I got the two males I have now when they were tiny fry. Since then I have went through some females trying to find some suitable ones, most seemed to be asian fish that were unfertile or completely lacking brood instincts. I bought three young females about 6 months ago, and they seem to be more promising, and will spawn regularly and show great brood care with what I know are their first spawns. I want to write an article for this site, but have to wait to read Blair and Ruurds and see if there is any need :lol:

Ed


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## Dutch Dude

Heee Ed,....Nice pics of a very nice tank :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: I love the branch in there and they show up very rarely over here. The tank looks realy lovely and nice Echinodorus. Of course they will be nicer in future becouse most of the store bought plants are from plant farms and have to adapt to be underneath the water.

I like the set up so far and only one small suggestion. Particularly the left corner seem to be a bit open in the corner. You could put a stem plant in there or my favorite Hydrocottyle Leucocephala. Those are the fast growing type and are very easy. They do need some nutrition rich water but you can easely detect when it is time to put in some Iron ferts. If they got a lack on nutrition the leaves become yellow or reduce in size. It can be put in a tank as stem plant (small groups) singley to create some contrast or fill up a gap or even floating on top of the surface. If they float they grow the best and have nice large leaves.

I like the java mos on the driftwood and this would be e perfect shelter for some small shrimps :wink:

Your fish are very nicely colored and are gorgeous Ed!!! I can see they get all the care they need. So just like Blair you got a quit aggressive / territorial male (aggressive in eartheater stile). Luckily I didn't have had this experience with one of my fish. The positive side effect is that he is probably a very good and overly protective dad. I wonder what would happen if he is placed in a group of 5 to 7 Bolivians.

So you want to write an article to? Well,....that's not a bad idea and may I ask what would be the main subject? Our article is more the base on knowledge what you need to know to maintain the specie, care, behaviour, territorial size, sexing, natural environment and demands on the tank. So if you would write an article abouth breeding them and the care for the fry in all the stages this would certainly be an addition.

About the article,...it has some delay and this has to do with a pic that I added from google (river Guapore) and not thinking of rights  Not that clever :lol:

Ed thanks of sharing this and it is realy a lovely and very nice looking tank,....and those fish,...I'm jealous! :thumb:


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## cichlidaholic

Very nice, Ed... :thumb:

I'll be anxiously awaiting pics of your fry! Mine are almost big enough for me to photograph with my point and shoot! :lol:

Ruurd, my little pair have turned out to be quite the tank terrorists! I've been watching them closely for the past few days, since I had noticed some extra "tension" in the tank, and they seem to be very focused on their former spawning spot. This morning, I woke to find a dead rummy nose tetra in their spawning area, and all of my other fish pushed to the far side of the tank. I didn't see any eggs, but they weren't overly enthusiastic about me sticking my hand in to remove the dead tetra, so I'm sure they are there or will be soon!

If you remember, I had planned on seperating this pair out from the others, but after getting rid of the angelfish, I thought it might be okay to leave them in. I guess I was wrong! 

By the way, my pair did have a bit of a disagreement while caring for the first clutch, and one (not sure whether it was male or female) was banished to the far side of the tank for about 24 hours, but obviously the lone parent decided the fry were too much to handle alone and allowed the other one to come back over!

What great personalities these tiny things have! (Although the rummy nose might disagree! :lol: )

Kim


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## blairo1

Wow Kim,

I'm surprised they would have killed a Rummynose! The reason I recommend and use those as dithers with Bolivians is because of their docile, non-predatory nature, in fact I've often seen my Rummynose sitting almost side by side with my Bolivians whilst they have fry.... Your fish must be pretty determined to keep those fry alive huh!

Hey Ed, fish are looking really nice bud, nothing like breeding colouration to bring out the colours in their fins. What camera did you get?


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## Dutch Dude

Kim,....wow!!! You got some very territorial species there! Killed a rummy nose?!?!?! My goodness! I never heard of this before!

Probably they soon will have some new eggs and the previous spawn was abouth a month ago?

Bolivians do have great personalities but usually they don't damage other fish and,...never heard of one who actually kills a tetra! Are you sure the Bolivians did or could it be an angel that became frustrated abouth his limited space? (becouse of the Bolivians claiming the biggest part of the tank)

Do you keep us posted Kim?


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## cichlidaholic

I got rid of the angelfish, Ruurd. I thought they were the ones that ripped the face off my Apisto, but now I'm wondering if my little demon rams didn't do it, after all!

Seems I got a pair of wild ones! 

I know they are preparing to spawn again, if they haven't already...They've claimed a particularly dense part of the tank as their own, the same place they had the last bunch. There are rocks, plants and wood - my husband got a little carried away with his aquascaping in this particular area, and it would be very easy for me not to be able to see the eggs! (Besides, you know how blind I am! :lol: )

The other pair seem very laid back and easy going, but this little pair act like serial killers!

Kim


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## blairo1

Sounds like you have a hyper aggressive/territorial male like me Kim - that's why I only have a pair and even in a 55 gallon tank it can get hairy sometimes for the female, hence why we advocate so much cover for them!

They are capable, it is surprising but if the Rummynose got himself into a corner where the Bolivians didn't want him he might not have been able to flee and this is what will make the Bolivians really go for it. Shoot, even my male hasn't killed, he's stood up to the big boy Sev, but he's no killer!

I think they're showing off to you because they want to compete with your expectations of African Cichlid aggression. "Those Africans aren't so tough, look what I can do!" Introducing something that can kick the males butt might be an idea - just to remind them that they aren't the boss of everything and that other fish CAN give them a whooping. My dominant Keyhole seemed to do a good job of keeping my Bolivian in check when they were sharing a tank temporarily, giving him a gentle nip or chase every now and again. Funny because the Keyhole was about the same size but so inquisitive I don't think the Bolivian male quite knew how to react :lol:.


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## cichlidaholic

You may be right, Blair...He may be competing with my trewavasae that is trying to rip everyones head off in the tank across the room! :lol:

Actually, these two are quite funny. This SA tank is on the bottom of a two tiered stand, right at the perfect level for my crazy cats to keep nose prints on the front glass at all times. I've got one cat that is a little "disturbed" and she thinks she can stick her paw underneath the tank to grab the little rams in their corner. They've attacked the glass trying to get to the cat to the point where I've been afraid they are going to hurt themselves, and I spend half my evenings trying to keep the cat from harrassing the rams and have to keep the door shut on this room during the day. But to watch them, you would think that if it came down to a fight, they might just win against a 20 lb cat!

Absolutely positively NO FEAR!

Kim


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## Dutch Dude

:lol: :lol: :lol: nice story of your "disturbed" cat and "disturbed" Bolivian, hahaha!!!


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## edburress

Ruurd...I'll probably rescape slightly per your suggestions, but I'll hold off since they are close to spawning again. If you and Blair left something open for an article about breeding and raising fry I would be very interested in that, as long as it is fine with Eric. I've already mentioned an article to him. I'll keep you updated.

Blair...Sony Cyber-shot DSC-H9. It's consideraby nicer than the Sony I was using before. The fry pictures aren't quite as good as I want, but they sell a few different lenses that I will look into when I can afford it, that will hopefully make it better for the shots of fry. I just started shooting with the Macro setting, haven't really researched any of the other setting to see if I can improve the shots. I've just had it a few days, it took me a year to figure out how to utilize my old camera :lol: I took some really nice shots of my tetras, but the growout tank is so bare, I think it's just not real condusive to good pictures. With the extent I have to zone on the little guys it has trouble focusing, any suggestions?. I am going to move them into a 30g soon, which should be considerably better for pictures.

Kim...great story :thumb: :lol:

Ed


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## mbunareunion

Kim - I had some issues with rams killing cory's but not with tetras or dither fish. I can understand the cory as they occupy the same level of the tank - it was just a bummer because they were sterbai new albino ones my fave store in southern oregon Nui Kai got in. I have some rummy's in my 20 G high with a single male and no problems, will be interesting to see what happens with a couple girlfriends added speaking of which....

One question I had for anyone who has ordered from Rapps, can I request females only - wanted to get 6 females and put the 2 males BRs I have each in a 20L with 3 ladies to see if I can get a pair. Anyone see a problem with this kind of set-up.


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## Dutch Dude

Ed,....good to hear your couple is preparing a next spawn and indeed wise not to make changes to the tank right now.

There are several articles on the internet abouth the Bolivians and still Blair and I found some room to combine information abouth the specie and sexing / breeding. So Ed I think after our article there will still be room for an other. If you like the breeding thing I can give a suggestion to ad also info abouth setting up a bbs hatchery as part of the process. I use a different system (Nuapli Star in tank bbs hatchery). I think it would be great to have all the info needed for people to maintain the specie. If Blair and I left some space open I would like you to jump in with a new article to cover it all. I guess it won't take long before our article will be on the profile section. I can't imagine Eric would have problems with that as long as it adds new information.

I also had troubles of taking pics from the bare bottom fry tank but,....I take the pics with a Sony Ericsson K800I phone so not realy surprising :lol: It has cybershot dough 

Mbunareunion,.....so you also experienced Bolivians killing a tankmate? Well,....with cory's I can immagine. If there is a fish that rapidly steals eggs or small fry it is the cory. And with good parents they defend their fry to the max. If the cory would have backed of there would not be a problem but probably he didn't.

Why don't you send Jeff Raps a PM to ask? He is a nice guy and will answer it but,....it can take several days.

1 m and 3 fm in a 20 gallon to pair up is no problem as long as there is some shelter for the fish like plants and driftwood. The more the better.


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## Kjaer

The bolivians i had liked the tabs meant for the corydoras


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## blairo1

:lol: Classic.

They do have eyes too big for their stomachs don't they!

Got any more pics - fill tank shots etc Kjaer?

Blair.


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## Kjaer

Overview of the tank.








The 4 rams i had in the tank


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## edburress

Kjaer...beautiful tank and rams :thumb:

Ed


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## Kjaer

edburress said:


> Kjaer...beautiful tank and rams :thumb:
> 
> Ed


Thanks, but its sold know. IÂ´m going to start up a bigger instead


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## Dutch Dude

Kjaer,....WOW!!! That's a very nice set up and I realy realy like that one!!! Plenty of shelter for the fish and very nice and natural looking!!! Stunning!!! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Ruurd


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## Kjaer

Dutch Dude said:


> Kjaer,....WOW!!! That's a very nice set up and I realy realy like that one!!! Plenty of shelter for the fish and very nice and natural looking!!! Stunning!!! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
> 
> Ruurd


Thanks. I specially liked the little echinodorus forest at the right side of the tank. I think i will have it in my new tank to.


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## Dutch Dude

I like the whole tank Johan and this is realy what I like!

There are several species of Echinodorus that stay small. Some look like grass like the Tenellus and some have the common shape only in a small package. Is the brand Dennerle availeble there? I like the E. parviflorus (25cm) E. Barthii (15 - 25cm) E. parviflorus 'tropica' (10 - 15 cm). The grass like Echinodorus Tenellus is hard to keep nice and need a lot of light but the E. Grisebachii and E. Latifolius are easy and look great. I find Hydrocotyle Leucocephala a great plant to. Nice for contrast, as stem plant and as floating plant as well, single or planted in a group.


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## blairo1

E. parviflorus 'tropica' - one of my favourite plants there Ruurd.

My Bolivians liked it too - its what they used to spawn on in an older tank.


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## Dutch Dude

Indeed Blair,....they are small and are a perfect shelter and they can hide underneath the leaves. The common E. parviflorus has the same appearance as E. Amazonicus only half the size with make them perfect for smaller tanks.

E. Grisebachii and E. Latifolius are the grass like species just like E. Bolivianus and all three of them can build a nice carpet. I have bad experiences with the Tenellus


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## Terra Incognita

So here is my guy. As said previously, I fear he's on his last leg (or fin, respectively). I'm not sure if some more experienced Bolivian guys can see it in his appearance, but in person his attitude seems to reflect my suspiscions.










I am surprised his fins look as good as they do in this picture. It seems he barely has the will to get away from an _extremely_ aggressive P. Pulcher who is pictured below, who constantly nips at him.









And truthfully, this Ram is the only reason my 55g is still stocked how it is. If this Ram passes, I see myself giving the Krib away, and moving the tetras to other tanks, or giving them to my LFS who has offered to take them all for $10 in-store credit. Not much, but it will get me a new sponge filter. I really wish I had taken better care of this ram, and I wish I could've saved him earlier from the LFS where he was getting battered by Green Terrors. However, it seems my new-found obbsession with Apistogrammas and other Dwarfs have taken up alot of my attention. And although my ram is a Dwarf, I don't pay much attention to him (except for the last couple of weeks, maybe 1 1/2 weeks), and I say that regretfully. But who can deny these buggers?









Maybe after this M. Altispinosa goes, I will purchase some healthy specimens I've found at my new LFS hotspot. Only time will tell, I guess. If this does happen, however, I believe I will have 3 pairs in a 55g to themselves, along with some Rummynose tetras. Does this sound resonable, or should I down it to 2 pairs, or maybe a harem of 1m and 3f? I will have the intent on breeding them in order to spread them around my area. So far, I have only found 1 store that carrys them, and I have been to many great LFS in my area, so it surprises me that only one has them in regularly. They're such great little fish with big personalitys, so it's hard to understand why they're under-represented in stores in my area, and it seems, in the hobby as well. It seems as if people are either really into Bolivians, or they've never had the chance to buy them, and the latter is truly a shame.


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## andrew__

Dutch Dude: Any tips on taking fish pictures with the Sony Ericsson k800i / k790a (same phone apparently but the 800's the international model? so I hear anyway). Just picked one up earlier this week and it's a fantastic camera outside in well lit areas, just haven't had much time to try taking pics of my tank yet.

A few more questions now, about stocking. I want to sell my angels and get a few more rams. Would 1 male, 2 females be alright, or what ratio should I be aiming for in a 75gal? Also, what tetras would typically be found in the same waters as Bolivians? And possibly 1 larger species no bigger than 6 inches max that would do well with a school of bolivians and small tetras (or I might keep either my emperors or my lemon tetras... or both and just lose the rasboras and not add anything else dither-wise.)


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## Terra Incognita

Terra Incognita said:


> So here is my guy. As said previously, I fear he's on his last leg (or fin, respectively). I'm not sure if some more experienced Bolivian guys can see it in his appearance, but in person his attitude seems to reflect my suspiscions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am surprised his fins look as good as they do in this picture. It seems he barely has the will to get away from an _extremely_ aggressive P. Pulcher who is pictured below, who constantly nips at him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And truthfully, this Ram is the only reason my 55g is still stocked how it is. If this Ram passes, I see myself giving the Krib away, and moving the tetras to other tanks, or giving them to my LFS who has offered to take them all for $10 in-store credit. Not much, but it will get me a new sponge filter. I really wish I had taken better care of this ram, and I wish I could've saved him earlier from the LFS where he was getting battered by Green Terrors. However, it seems my new-found obbsession with Apistogrammas and other Dwarfs have taken up alot of my attention. And although my ram is a Dwarf, I don't pay much attention to him (except for the last couple of weeks, maybe 1 1/2 weeks), and I say that regretfully. But who can deny these buggers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe after this M. Altispinosa goes, I will purchase some healthy specimens I've found at my new LFS hotspot. Only time will tell, I guess. If this does happen, however, I believe I will have 3 pairs in a 55g to themselves, along with some Rummynose tetras. Does this sound resonable, or should I down it to 2 pairs, or maybe a harem of 1m and 3f? I will have the intent on breeding them in order to spread them around my area. So far, I have only found 1 store that carrys them, and I have been to many great LFS in my area, so it surprises me that only one has them in regularly. They're such great little fish with big personalitys, so it's hard to understand why they're under-represented in stores in my area, and it seems, in the hobby as well. It seems as if people are either really into Bolivians, or they've never had the chance to buy them, and the latter is truly a shame.


Fixed. =P


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## edburress

Hi terra, normally healthy bolivians will have a nice yellow chest and abdomen. obviously, sub-dominant fish will have less coloration, but your rescued guy has quite minimal coloration that is limited to the throat area. Looking at him, he is certainly not very old, not even full grow. The greenish-grey coloration of the body and scattered markings along the back show he is stressed. Since he is a rescue and has not been in your care for long, you can assume his past has been poor which will drastically shorten life span. You can't really look at a picture and tell if a fish is near his end. But you said his behavior hints at this. I have never kept them with bolivians but I don't think a healthy male bolivian should have any trouble defending itself against a male krib.

Andrew_ I think a standard 75 will have the same footprint as Ruurds 90, so I am sure he can give you some real good advice about stocking options. If you look at Kjaers thread about his 86 gallon tank, there is a lot of information about the Rio Guapore biotope in there, including appropriate tetra species.

Ed


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## blairo1

> I have never kept them with bolivians but I don't think a healthy male bolivian should have any trouble defending itself against a male krib.


Ooh Ed, I had to jump in here because I do keep my 8.5 month old P. taeniatus with my Bolivian male, knowing how much of a nutcase my male Bolivian is, the only fish that he runs away from is the young taeniatus!! Unbelievable. Also when I had the parents in the tank with the Bolivians they too would very aggressively defend a large territory (when rearing young) and there wasn't a single fish that would cross to their half of the tank. They are really tough little fish, I think that if the Krib is dominating the Bolivian then this is probably the main problem. Kribs are a bit relentless in that they will seek out other fish, rather than just sitting and waiting.

Terra, I think that you either need more Bolivians or to get this one out of the tank asap, it doesn't look like a dying fish to me, just a very stressed one that needs some good recovery. It's past certainly hasn't helped give it good odds in defending itself against a male Kribensis.

Blair.


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## edburress

:lol: Blair I was hoping you would jump in, I remembered you had them together. Its funny your bolivians will challenge the huge Rotkeil and mine will push around large Geos but a similar sized krib will get the best of them :lol:

Ed


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## Terra Incognita

You two were right about my Ram, as you always seem to be! :thumb: I moved the Krib to a different tank, and my Bolivian coloured right up! He is offically the king of the tank now, and he seems to be loving it. Here's the best shots I could get of him. My lighting currently is yellowish, hence the pictures looking yellow. He really isn't this washed out in person, I promise. His colour isn't the greatest, but it's definately not as bad as in the photos. The best I could do:


















Now he only has to worry about this guy:









Thanks.  [/quote]


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## Dutch Dude

Andrew,.....well there isn't a special trick to take pics with the K800I. The only problem is the missing zoom function and the limitation with the flash. Some people cover the flash with some tissues to create a lower output and more defused light. Because of the small distance between the lens and the flash this is almost impossible with the camera phone. I take my pics in the dark. All lights off except of the tank. I take a chair and sit in front of the tank watching the fish for a while. At first they are very exited and beg for food or great me. After 10 to 15 minutes they ignore me and become les exited. This is the time to take the camera. I open the cover and keep it in front of the tank so it can adjust to light. I switch the flash off! I turn the brightness to +0.3 and take shots. You have to take the right moment were the fish swim very slowly or hang still in the water. I aim at the eyes or at the lateral spot (becouse of the contrast) so the auto focus can do its job properly. Keep in mind that you are lucky if you have 1 good sharp pic out of 50 attempts. This is how I do it. Taking pics of moving fish is hard but for normal pics the K800I takes very nice pics!

About the 75 tank,...Ed is right and it probably has the same footprint as my 90 gallon. If you would take 1 m and 2 fm you end up with 1 female getting picked by the couple. I a tank that size you could easely keep 5 Bolivians and when you have plenty of plants and territorial markers like driftwood you can add more and 7 of them won't be any problem. I read every now and then abouth a male that is very territorial. Blair and Kim do have such a male. I wonder if this would also be the case if those males were kept in a small group. I have kept Bolivians for more than 7 years and always kept them in groups of 7 or more and don't ever had a problem with aggression. Besides that they show even more interesting behaviour when kept in small groups. So,......if you like a couple,...that's fine,.....if you want more of them I suggest 5 to 9 depending on the set up (plants, driftwood). Bolivians do well with almost all tetras and even the small species. Don't put them together with the fin nibbling types like the Buenos aires Tetra. The Lemon tetras and the Emperors will be fine and nice looking fish to. You were asking abouth a second cichlid around the 6 inch to join,.....well,...if you want a group of Bolivians of 7 there won't be much room left for an other specie. Cichlids around the 6 inch that are peaceful and get along with the Bolivians is limited. I got only one good suggestion and that's the Guianacara. I got G. Rio Caronii and the did fine with my Bolivians. Make sure you got a small group of them to! They do best in a small group and their behaviour is very interesting and fun to watch just like the Bolivians. If you make plenty of shelter, some caves (flowerpots) and plants I think they get along well. Keep in mind that every fish needs his territory. So I think 4 Guianacara and a couple of Bolivians will do well. I have to mention that Guianacara do dig holes underneath driftwood and possibly plants. So if you want to play save I suggest a shoul of 7 Bolivians and the tetras (15 lemons and 10 emperor would look great!).

Terra,.....you got some great advice of Ed and Blair and good to hear he is fine right now. I short term kept a single Bolivian in a tank with some corydoras. The fish was good looking and had nice colors,...had,.....after 2 weeks he was pail and the red turned into pink and his orange belly turned pale yellow. Bolivians do best if kept as a couple or even better,...if kept in a group (shoul).


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## Terra Incognita

I'm very sorry for bombarding this thread with pictures of my little guy... but there's been some breaking news :lol: . I woke up this morning, looking at my tank, and was blown away. His colours have exploded, and they look wonderful. I almost have to go get him a mate now, as a reward for showing me his beautiful colors. Here are the best shots I could get, but it looks even better in real life, I assure you:


























I know they're bad, and out of focus, and small, but I'm unable to get better shots right now for various reasons. I'm always light headed because of medication I have to take for some past dental exams (ie, Vicodin for a Root Canal), and my camera isn't much for underwater pictures, and he's always wiggling around! :lol: But, although these won't be in national geographic, I feel they show his colour well enough.


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## blairo1

There you go, you see. And you thought he was on his way out......

There's a lot of life left in that fish, especially now. Get him 3 females, that's what I'd do.


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## demonsoni

updated my avatar...


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## Dutch Dude

Terra,..... :thumb: quit some difference and his colors are great!!!


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## GlasgowA

Hi Guys

The story so far..... :zz:

3 or so weeks ago 2 of my rams started to dig a pit into the sand, they eventually dug 3 pits in total, dotted around the tank. They never seemed to get peace and in the end nothing happened. At the weekend they sarted digging again and this time they seem very aggressive towards other fish who come close by. 
They have dug 2 pits, only seperated by a small plant which is just hanging on by a couple of roots! They are knocking other fish who come by (keholes and other rams). One special annoyance to the rams I have noticed is there is a bogwood cave close to the pits, which the rams never seem to use/take notice off, the enterence always seems to be blocked by one of my clown plecs. One of the 2 rams in question sat staring the plec out for hours last night and on the odd occasion attacked the plec (1-2 second bursts only) then went back to staring.

I have only been able to get frozen bloodworm and have been feeding that more regularly lately as per Blair's post.

My queries are:

Do they sound like they are getting ready to breed?
Could they have laid eggs already and my other fish population have eaten/stolen them (plecs, pencilfish)
What can I do, with my current population below, to help the rams breed more easily?

Any help would be grately appreciated :thumb:

Cheers

Andrew


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## Dutch Dude

Andrew, Your Bolivians are indeed ready to spawn! There is a big chance they spawn after the next partial water change. It is possible that the pleco's eaten the eggs. I saw 2 of my Loricarids snack away 100 eggs in abouth 5 minutes. I don't think you can do much abouth it and mom and dad have to defend their eggs. The only thing you could do is to take the pleco's and cory and Siamesis out or, rearrange a breeding tank for the Bolivians. Probably the last option would be the best but if you have the possibility (for a 20 gallon) it first have to be cycled.

Ruurd


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## GlasgowA

Ruurd

Thanks for the advice, I was due to carry out a water change last night anyway so did that and will see if anything happens today, can't find Blair's part of the feeding when ready to spawn, if I remember he says to stop feeding at one point do you know when is that?

Cheers

Andrew


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## blairo1

Hey Andrew,

I would usually do 3 days of "intensive" bloodworm feeding, on the 3rd day I wouldn't feed in the evening, give them the 4th day with no food and then return to normal. The water change should be performed when you stop feeding (ie that 3rd afternoon) and they'd usually spawn that evening if the other circumstances are right. It sounds like one of your Bolivians is getting very territorial with that pleco, nothing unusual there, they just know how much of a risk they are. I'd be surprised if you didn't have a spawn in the next few days.

:thumb:


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## GlasgowA

Blair and Ruurd

Again thanks for all your help. Will keep you posted.

Cheers

Andrew :thumb:


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## Dutch Dude

Yeh we like to be posted abouth this and lets keep fingers crossed


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## GlasgowA

Well I need my eyes tested. for the last 2 days I have seen, what I thought was very small bits of sand vibrating in the pits, turns out after closer inspection last night its fry...YIPPEE...

They have now got 3 pits and move the fry from one to the other (take it thats to keep them clean and away from prying eyes). Tried to take pictures but didn't work at all as I don't have a macro on the camera (as you can see below). At this stage what are the chances of them surviving? The parents are keeping everything away including me when I'm being nosey at the glass! Should I cover the inlet pipe to my external filter (at the moment they are at the opposite side of the tank) and what is the best feed at the moment

So many questions sorry

First time fish parent Andrew


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## Dutch Dude

Hahaha,...congratulations Andrew!!! Well next time you see sand wiggle you can ask a friend to take a pic of it,...this method worked fine for Kim 

It is wise to cover the filter inlets with filter foam for example. The water can go through but the small fish not. For now they are still wigglers but after 2 til 3 days they become free swimming. At first the parents try to keep them in the pits but when they become older they can't keep up and the fry will explore the tank.

When the eggs are hatched the youngsters will be wigglers for 2 til 3 days. That period they digest their jolksack. After the 3 day's they become free swimming and need to be fed. The best food is live bbs (baby brine shrimp). Some have also success with Hikari First Bites but I prefer bbs in the first 3 to 4 weeks and slowly start to feed the First bites. If you feed bbs you need to feed them 5 times a day. The bbs can survive abouth 2 hours in fresh water so that's the reason why you should feed them that often. If the fish are good fed their bellies turn orange to gold.

If you got more questions,...just ask :wink:


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## GlasgowA

Ruurd

Just away to my LFS for supplies. Can't move them to a tank on their own as the only other tank I have is a 30 litre Bi-Orb but feel that they are best left alone for the parents to try and look after. Will get the filter sponge and some bbs and see how they fare with all the other hungry fish.
Parents have been superb. Moving from pit to pit and trying to keep them in one place. I think the fry is starting to get restless as the parents are forever chucking them back in. Will let you know how they survive over the next week, fingers crossed.

Cheers

Andrew


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## Dutch Dude

Andrew,

It can work especially if the parents take such a good care. Please keep us posted and we also keep our fingers crossed.

Good luck :thumb:


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## nmartyn

hi all - new to the site. 
i've got 2 bolivian rams and both are very much 'duller' than those pictured here. any ideas why? i've had them for about 8months now and they seem pretty happy


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## blairo1

Hey, welcome to the club!

It can depend on a lot of things - tank mates, tank size, aquascaping, amount of light, feed, water change regime, water parameters - KH GH PH temp, health of breeding stock, whether the fish were hormoned (usually Asia farm bred) etc etc etc.

So if you could tell us:
Your water parameters.
What size tank they are in, maybe give us a photo or explain the aquascape.
What do you feed them, how much? 
How frequently you perform water changes and to what extent.
Other fish?

Then we might be able to work out why they don't seem to be colouring up as much.

:thumb:


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## spqrzilla

I wish I could take photos to match Blair and Ruurd as my dominent Bolivian has recently developed extraordinarily long fins. I tried shooting some with my digital camera but they came out pretty bad.


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## curt_914

I have recently gotten 8 of these little beauties, all about 1/2 inch long the largest is 3/4 inch. They are great little critters. They are currently in a 10 gallon quar tank with 9 panda corries 1/2inch long. They will be moved into there 55 gallon home in about 1 month as soon as I can get the $$$ for substraight, and lights.

Curt


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## StopWar

does anyone use any type of blackwater or blackwater extract? I recently bought Kent's Extract. Does is help in color or spawning? thanks.


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## curt_914

What type of Plant list do I need to be stocking my tank with?!?!?! I am tight on cash and if anyone has any cuttings or shoots I would be happy to pay shipping for them.

I was thinking a couple of Medium size Sowrds, Some dwarf Pigmy sowrds for the forground and some crypts, and java fern. I need things that will do well in low light as I am not set up for Co2 yet and am planing on a 216 watt lamp in the future.

Let me know what you think. I was also going to use Eco and Sand as the substraight.

Curt


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## spqrzilla

Curt, some of the local stores in the area have plants at reasonable prices, like Fish Den and there may be some at the RM cichlid club's auction on Saturday.


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## curt_914

I am hopefully going to go and look at the stuff on sat and get some info on the club. As for local stores I really dont like Fish Den. Everything is overpriced and their tanks are overstocked, Plus last time I was in there there plant tanks dont get enough light and their vals looked like it was melting. I have Primere Fish by the house and like what I have seen, I also want to go down to Neptunes in HR. Money is tight due to the wife being out of work for 3 months now. Which is why the tank isnt up and running yet. I am going to go look at HD this weekend for sand for the tank, any recomendations??

Curt


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## Dutch Dude

Nmartyn and Curt,...welcome to the BRC!

Nmartyn,.....like Blair mentioned there can be a lot of reasons why the fish don't have the bright colors as those from the pics of Blair and Ed. Keep in mind that those fish are adult and the most beautiful pics are of those in breeding colors. If they spawn they intensify in color but not to the extreme. So there must be a reason why your fish aren't as bright colored. To determine the reason we need info on several issues like Blair already mentioned. Previous in this treat we talked abouth water quality, feeding and set-up so you can find a lot of info on here. If you don't have the time (no one would blame you) :wink: you can provide us with the info and we can give you a proper advice.

Spqrzilla,.......well,....most important of taking pics is patience. Keep in mind that only 1 or 2 out of the 50 pics is in focus and good enough :wink: If I can do it you can do it :wink: And,...I have to make a correction,...only e few pics are from me but the most beautiful and sharp high quality pics are from Ed and Blair. Great work guys and,.....I'm jealous!!!

Curt,......the list of plants you mentioned are fine. Over here there are some cheaper brands but in most cases the quality of the plants is not that great. I got positive experience with the more expensive brands and often there are 3 or 4 plants in on pot in stead of 1 or 2 bad quality from the cheaper brands. Something to consider. If you decide for the cheaper brands I suggest to pay some extra attention to the quality. Bolivians don't mind the brand or type of plant as long as it provides enough shelter and shaded arias. They like to take cover underneath the leaves of Echinodorus. Some cheap and easy plants that do well with low light levels are Java fern, Egeria (Elodea) densa and Valisneria spiralis. The Egeria is a fast growing plant and they can grow 4 inch a week and with high light levels and CO2 even more! So you don't need much of it becouse of the fast growing and the increasing numbers. Except for that it produces a lot of oxygen and consumes lots of nitrates. This should be the plant in every new set up! it can be used as temporarely plant but also does well as permanent plant.

Curt,...is it correct that you want to ad a 216 Watt lamp on a 55 gallon??? I only have a 30 Watt tubelight with a mirror and that's it! If you like more light you could add 2 of them but why 216 Watt? Besides that Bolivians don't like high light levels!

I don't know Eco so no comments on that. Sand is the best substrate for Bolivians so they can sift sand (like their larger Geophagus relatives) and dig pits for their youngsters without damages becouse of gravel. Some small gravel (grain size 1/10 inch) would be fine to but sand is the best. Make sure it doesn't contain a lot of buffer. I hear good things abouth pool filter sand and I use river sand.


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## Ape-Fish

Incidentally guys, are Bolivian Rams know to dig in sand? I'm thinking of getting some for my 135g tank with 60" by 18" footprint :thumb: - about how many should i get for them all to be happy?


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## edburress

Ape-Fish....bolivians will sift through sand, in a similar fashion to the larger Geophagus, however they won't excavate large amount of sand like some Geos. During courtship and spawning they will dig depressions to store fry and occaisonally even eggs in. They don't usually uproot plants, but they will dig down into the root systems to shelter wrigglers, but are careful not to uproot them. I suppose they know they can't use them if if they are floating at the surface :lol: They function very well in groups, and you will really enjoy them :thumb: I'll wait and let Ruurd advise you on stocking levels as he has kept them in similar footprint as yours.

Ed


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## curt_914

Yep Dutch Dude you heard me right. I have been doing research on the High-Tec tank with co2 injection. I have had verrying oppinions on the mater. I am also looking at a 96 watt CF unit. Though most of the plants I have chosen will grow in a low light tank. I am still not sure what I am going to do. Though I am sure I want to save some money on this set up bacause I need to get it up in about a month. Also The 10 Gallon has gravel in it But I am thinking of pulling out the substraight this weekend for sand when I clean their tank this weekend. 1 bag of play sand should do ok in it. And I do have a hob filter that is working well plus I will re use as much of the tank water in the change.

I am going to look into the cost of getting pool filter sand As I have heard good things about it as well. Also should I have an Under Gravel Jet system on the 55 tank?? I Have seen them talked about extensivily for the Africans. As for Caves Do I really need to make any? I am going to have corrys in this tank as well as some hatchet fish and tetras. I figure the corries would appericate them. I know lots of questions.

Curt
http://www.aquatraders.com/index.asp?Pa ... ProdID=295
P.S. Here's the light I am seriously considering.


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## spqrzilla

Well, I'll keep trying Ruurd as I would really like to show off this one's fins.


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## Dutch Dude

Ape-fish,.....Ed already answered your question abouth digging. Your tank is larger than mine and depending on set up and other tank inhabitants you could add 5 to 11 fish. I guess 6 would be a nice number but if you realy like the fish and create lots of territorial markers with driftwood and lots of plants you could keep a larger number.

Curt,....I would not advice to make big changes in the 10 gallon tank! This disturbs the balance and this could very well have negative effect on your youngsters! So you could save that money and spend it to the 55 gallon.

High light levels and CO2 increase growth of plants. You also need to ad ferts for the plants. If you don't the plants will slow down in growth and algae take over. With low light levels the growth of plants is les and also the growth of algae is les! About 60 Watt would be plenty on a 55.

Spqrzilla,.......don't give up,.....and we like to see your fish


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## Dutch Dude

Curt,....I forgot to answer,.....you don't need caves and a under gravel jet system is a bad idea for a SA set up. You will need densly planted arias and driftwood for some shelter and as territorial marker.


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## traumatic

I'd like to Join the BRC! I just received a nice pair from a friend. The male is HUGE, the female is loose as a goose. I'm hoping to be nursing a large brood soon. I'll post up pics soon. I have them in a planted 28 gal bowfront currently, I'm working on getting them thier own setup soon.


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## curt_914

Dutch dude,

Thanks for the input, I bought 2 50 lbs bags of quickreit All purpose sand ( a little coarser then play sand ) for the 55 gallon. I have a few piece's of driftwood for the tank and have some crypts all ready in the 20 gallon and the 10 for them. I will be looking for some more plants for the 55 in the next couple of days. What additives would you put in the sand for the plants?? I wont do any major changes to the 10 gallon then till they are moved tanks. I hope thet in about 1.5 months to have them in the 55. I want to get some plants in the next 3 weeks so that they have about 3 weeks to set roots before the transfer.

Curt

P.S I will try to get a camera tomorrow to get some pics up next week.


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## demonsoni

Would my m/f ram do better in a 15 gal than the 20 tall they are in because it has a bigger footprint?


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## Dutch Dude

Curt,.....I don't know what the source of the sand is but I hope it doesn't contain a lot of calcium becouse this could realy mess up your water parameters like KH, GH and PH. That's why a lot of people are so positive abouth poolfilter sand. That would have been a save option.

Because Bolivians don't make deep pits and only 1 or 2 inch deep you can add a normal plant substrate. Lots of people use laterite but I prefer the (soft) clay based plant substrates (like Dennerle Deponit mix). You could also skip the substrate and put some clayballs (used for pond plants) or Echinodorus tabs deep in the sand between the roots of the plant. So several options and my favorite is the clay based substrate.

We would love to see some pics Curt :thumb:

Demonsoni,.....welcome to the BRC!

If your tank contains only a pair of Bolivians the 15 gallon volume would be sufficient. Of course the larger the better but this will do. They will do better in tanks with a larger foot print and this increases the size of their territory. So I would go for the 15 gallon.


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## edburress

traumatic....welcome to the BRC :thumb: Congrats on your new bolivians, be sure and get some pics up!

Ed


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## demonsoni

I've been in the BRC since page 2! 8) the tank they are in is more community, so i think the 15 will be much better because they will have approx double the territory since they will be the only two in tank.



Dutch Dude said:


> Demonsoni,.....welcome to the BRC!
> 
> If your tank contains only a pair of Bolivians the 15 gallon volume would be sufficient. Of course the larger the better but this will do. They will do better in tanks with a larger foot print and this increases the size of their territory. So I would go for the 15 gallon.


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## curt_914

Well My Mom Stoped at the pool supply store this morning. They said the sand I got was about the same thing as the pool filter sand. Plus They wanted $14 a bag for a 50 lbs bag ( Still not bad). My mom said main difference is the pool filter sand looked more like the common play sand in looks and texture. The sand I got is from the same company that makes the play sand. The main difference between the 2 is the one I got is a little corser then play sand. The sand I got is an all purpose mix for Portland Cement. I will try it as the tank will be set up a month before fish move in. I just have to find a KH, GH test kit as the one I have only measures PH, AM, Nitrates, and Nitrites.

Dutch I will see if I can get a camera this week for pics next week some time. Of my Rams and the new set up  .

Curt


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## Dutch Dude

Sorry Demonsoni,......I confused with someone else and to correct that,....

Traumatic,...welcome to the BRC!

Curt,...I realy hope your right abouth the sand and if that would be the case you have done a good deal. Well,...the future will tell.

I'm curious already and hopefully you will succeed to take some nice pics :thumb:


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## curt_914

Hey Guys got the camera, Just need battries. Which will come on friday when I get paid. I will also get the test kits this weekend if I have money left after paying rent and a car payment, plus getting food for the cats. So I should know about the sand in a couple weeks time as to if it will affect the water. I will let you all know what I find with the sand.

I was also talking to a shop in town yesterday and they dont recomend a sillica type sand for an aquarium because it irratates the fish's gills. Any one how uses playsand or pool filter sand notice a problem???

Also I will get pics up of the set up process in about 3 weeks. Need to pay bills but I hope to have 2-3 bags of eco complete plant substraight on the way. Then the fun begins!!

Curt


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## Dutch Dude

Curt,....play sand is save if it comes to sharp edges and pool filtersand should be save to. Silica sand does have some sharp edges and indeed can damage gills of sand sifting or digging fish and it can damage the whiskers of Corydoras to.

Well,...you made me curious Curt so I look forward to the pics and hopefully there won't be financial troubles to delay your project.

Ruurd


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## curt_914

Thanks Ruurd,

I am getting 3 checks this month, so I hope to be able to budget about $200 to finish up the tank and get it running and start cycleing it. Hope fully I can get a couple sowrds for the tank as well as some more java fern. Keep you all posted.

Curt


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## eco-mod

I've been hovering around the forum for a few weeks now and read this entire thread at least twice! I haven't picked up any Bolivian rams that have fit the bill of my liking yet, but have 5 German blues. I'm going to actually make a trip in 2 weeks specifially to find some quality Bolivians as few places where I am carry any rams, let alone quality/non-doped fish.

My main tank is a 110 Oceanic, planted w/ 8 rummynose, 5 black neon tetra, 6 SAE, 5 panda cory, 5 guppies, a few oto's, a kuhli loach and 5 German Blue Rams.

I also have a 30 gal that served as my service tank, but that is being redone specifically for the incoming Bolivians.

I do have a question regarding substrate suggestions for the rams w/ a planted tank. I plan to use pool filtration sand or quikcrete sand, but was curious as to if people were putting a base layer of Flourite or similar and covering it with sand or mixing it in. Suggestions are more than appreciated!


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## curt_914

Eco-Mod-

I am building a 55 gallon tank and am going to be using ECO Complete planting substraight under a base of Quikcrete sand. I have 2 bags of the all purpose sand but may be changeing it to play sand in a week or so. I am going to be rinseing the sand in the next week to two and if it is to coarse I am going for play sand as I dont want to dammage the gills of my rams or barbals on my corries. I should be getting everything togeather and set up by the end of NOV if you want to follow what I am going to be doing. I am also thinking about getting some florite for color contrast in the tank. The Tank is going to be Rams Corries and tetras Mainly. Welcome to the forum and I hope you enjoy your stay!! I know I am....

Curt


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## traumatic

substrate can be unpredictable when mixing different textures. Such as Flourite as a base, and sand on top. Naturally the larger granules of the flourite will move to the surface as the sand settles in between them. The fish themselves will inhibit this by sifting through the sand looking for food. I suggest using a thin layer (less than 1/2") of sand on bottom and a larger type sandy/gravelly substrate on top.

curt- you could just go w/ EcoComplete by itself. Or, Mix w/ the playsand to get the desired look. I've done mixes before (not fake painted gravel), and come up w/ some pretty neat looking substrates. It can look more natural than one or the other by itself.


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## blairo1

Just quickly jumping in to say a big welcome to all of the new members of the BRC! It's great to have you and I look forward to following your progress. Keep us updated as you go! Ruurd, Ed , myself and several others will do what we can to help you all out.

:thumb:

For those that are interested I have moved my Bolivian pair to their own 30 gallon so I can raise some of their fry, time to breed this male of mine properly. The Rotkeil is loving not having them in the other tank with him (see Oak leaf litter thread) so that's a plus too - gives him some peace and quiet. I'll keep you updated as and when.

Blair.


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## Dutch Dude

Eco-mod,.....welcome to the forum! You what???? Did read this treat at least 2 times  Wow,.....that most have taken you quit some time! Your question,........well I struggled myself for some time to select a plant substrate for my tank. All my previous tanks had very fine gravel (grain of 0.1 inch) and I also made a switch to sand. Finely I did added my favorite clay based substrate (Dennerle deponit mix)and put a layer of abouth 2 inch of sand on top. I hope this will be suficient but the future will tell. From what I hear the Flourite comes easely on top especially when you move a plant.

Ruurd


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## curt_914

Traumatic- Thanks for the advice I was acctually contemplating doing that anyway and mixing them. Which part of the forum could I start a thread in to do a photo diary of my build? I am also going to be using some Grapevine in the tank to simmulate roots but I have heard varying oppinions on this. Some people say they have had no problems others say it is nothing but a fungus bed and will rot and decay the water quality. Time will tell worst that will happen is I will have to pull it out and start with another piece of wood. The back of the tank is going to be black Vinyl. so the black on green should look great with a good mix on the substraight with some slate and "Beech" Pebbles for stone.

If all goes as planed I hope to have the tank up and going by December 1st. Pics of the rams will be up I hope next week.

Curt


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## eco-mod

Thanks for the tips on substrate. I've used laterite in 3 tanks including my 110 which is doing well, and I figured it would blend in best with some medium to dark colored sands well so I'll probably go with that or flora root.

Well on the ram front... the 3 rams I received today happened to be the goofy ass 'dwarf blue veil ram' otherwise known as obsurdly stubby and excessivly fat rams. So those just went into my sister's tank since she just likes the oh so pretty colors. Yet another disappointment from a website selling what they call german blue rams... Oh and as for the 5 other fish I waited 3 weeks for them to 'have ready', only one showed up alive, and they won't do a **** thing about it.

As for the positive side, my pair of blues in my 110 are spawning! I went down to feed the tank about 20 minutes before lights out and noticed the female ram was sticking towards the back of the tank. I took a closer look and had to look at an odd angle to find here and just behind her on the slate were about 150 freshly laid eggs! The male ate for a bit, took over the watch and she came out to eat quick. After done, she fought the other fish out of the area and went back to laying more eggs. I've never seen rams spawn first hand, and it was really quite the show. With any luck I'll have some newborn rams in the near future! On that note, about how many days does it take for them to hatch? I've got pics and a video on my other computer so I'll have to get some up tomorrow.


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## traumatic

I've been messing around with different substrates lately. A friend of mine just gave me a good 25 lbs of ada aquasoil. This stuff is like mud. I'll prob sit on it for a while and see what I can do with it.


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## spqrzilla

This is the best I can do with my digital camera, I've not the skills of Ruurd or Blair.










The photo does not really do justice to the long fins he is showing below and the edging on his tail. He's my dominant Bolivian at the moment, he's got another that is unfortunately getting picked on a lot and I'm trying to figure out if I need to separate them.


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## StopWar

I have a pair of beautiful bolivians in my 30 gallon. I was thinking of getting another pair perhaps or possibly a pair of apistos. Anyways, I want to make my tank softer and give it a blackwater tint. My options (as far as I know) are:
1) boiled oak leaves
2) peat moss in pantyhose placed in the filter
3) blackwater extract (tried)
If anybody has comments on those techniques or any suggestions I'd appreciate it. thanks.


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## eco-mod

Peat filtration worked well for me when I kept a 'wild' themed discus tank.

I finally picked up a pair of decent Bolivians today, one M and one F. Although they weren't as spectacular as I was looking for, they seemed to both have good personality and habits. I was teetering on wether to get them or not, but being that I had seen them for awhile now in a tank with friggin African cichlids that were keeping them cowering in the corners most of the time, it became somewhat of a rescue as well. They both seem to be doing just fine so far in the tank though the male had a bit of a tiff with the pair of german rams who's territory he was in.


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## edburress

spqrzilla....your males caudal extinctions are looking good. I would suggest a darker substrate, preferably small enough grain for the bolivians to sift through. I know changing substrate is a pain, but the improvements you would see in coloration and behavior are more than worth it :thumb:

StopWar....I have two pairs of bolivians in a 30 (36"x12") without problems. That is a little smaller than I would typically recommend, but it can be done. It is largely dependant on the temperment of the males. Between spawnings, the females need plenty of cover and sight breaks so they are not harassed, so the tank has to scaped specifically with that in mind. Blackwater conditions are not necessary for bolivians, but if it is your preference (which is perfectly fine!) I would consider using peat, driftwood, or the leaves. I am sure there are quality chemical extracts out there but personally I would use the natural approaches. Post some pics!

eco-mod....I'd love to see some pictures of your new bolivians if you can get some up :thumb:

Ed


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## spqrzilla

edburress said:


> spqrzilla....your males caudal extinctions are looking good. I would suggest a darker substrate, preferably small enough grain for the bolivians to sift through. I know changing substrate is a pain, but the improvements you would see in coloration and behavior are more than worth it :thumb:


That's an interesting idea, I'll have to see if I can find something smaller grained.


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## StopWar

-spqrzilla
why does your ram look so devoid of color?


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## blairo1

Spooked fish, harsh flash .

He looks cute. I would definitely change substrate though - mikro - geo- phagus : small earth eater. They do like sand best .


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## curt_914

Hey Guys Just curious If I do end up with mostly males would some of you in the states be willing to trade for some females??? My Largest fish is now a little over 1 inch and I should have some pics up next week. Also I have found some Chinese Grass shrimp at my LFS, there are about 2 " would these be ok with the rams?

Curt


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## eco-mod

Those fish sound like they were sold way to young. In addition to that, I'd consider holding on to them for awhile longer until they are at least a little older and sexing them would be more successful. As far as the grass shrimp, I'm not entirely sure which shrimp they are as I have never heard of any that go by that name.

My bolivians I added yesterday are finally starting to settle in. Still some scuffles with the german pair in the tank but the bolivians are starting to fight back. The bol male who is the biggest of all the rams in the tank is definatly the biggest wuss. It's kinda sad really...


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## curt_914

No, they were sold to young. But I was on a rescue mission when I found out the store would be closed in less then 1 week, And didnt know as much as I know now. Plus I got them for $2 a piece. I dont mind them growing them out. I do plan to hold on to them till I can sex them properly. I will try to get the scientific name for the shrimp on monday when I head into the store. Also where do you all get your live food for the rams?

Curt


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## eco-mod

Oh yeah now I remember you saying that.

As for the food, I am pretty limited here where I am at for live foods, and my past experiences except for black worms, has been that the advantages of live foods compared to their frozen counterparts has not been worth the hassle. I feed them frozen brine shrimp every other day, frozen blood worms about once a week, and a mix of different flake and dry foods the rest of the time. This seems to be working out well for me.


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## spqrzilla

StopWar said:


> -spqrzilla
> why does your ram look so devoid of color?


Poor photography skils, harsh flash. He's more yellow, with more pink in the fins and with a side spot than my poor photo shows.


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## StopWar

oh ok. thats what i kind of figured. just didn't know if he was recently bought from the lfs. when i first got my rams they were very pale but soon colored up in my tank.

Thanks for the advice on the blackwater guys. I think im gonna try the peat moss in the filter trick, i just really like the subtle brown tint. Still got some peat leftover from my substrate switch. Just changed over to sand with a peat moss layer on the bottom.

I have another question, regarding food as mentioned above. If i were to feed my rams bloodworms every other day with my sinking pellets in rotation, would there be any problems?


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## blairo1

> If i were to feed my rams bloodworms every other day with my sinking pellets in rotation,


Waaaaaay overkill. You will end up with very fat unhealthy fish. Bloodworms aren't that high in protein, they are very high in fats and they are also quite hard for the fish to break down properly.

This is why I only really recommend the use of bloodworms as a spawning trigger - the higher fat levels aren't so bad in that instance as the female utilises them in egg production. The main reason I recommend bloodworm is because of the way in which it seems to excite the fish and the fat for the females egg production, that's it.

What pellet are you feeding. You'd be better off feeding that as a staple (forget variety is good - it's nonsense, as long as the feed provides the sufficient nutrition required then there is no need for such "variety".) If you did want to give them a treat there are more nutritious and readily digestible options available - such as mysis/brine shrimp, daphnia, etc - Ruurd is the one to ask about feeding live feeds like that, as I said the ONLY instance I use bloodworm is as a spawning trigger.

Blair.


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## Dutch Dude

Stop war,..... peat in a pantyhose or peat extract are "old" proven methods. Not only the PH will lower but the tannins also reduce algae growth and stimulate spawning. Most people don't like the yellow color of the water but that's different for you. I would prefer the peat.

Two pairs in a 30 can be done but just like Ed already told,...it depends on the temperament and the aquascape. I suggest lots of plants and driftwood.

Eco-mod,....Congrats with your new fish and good you saved them from the Africans :thumb:

The fish of Curt are indeed sold at a extremely young age and they should not being sold. Luckily Curt has bought them and took care of them.

Curt,.... I didn't heard of Chinese grass shrimp before and I would be carefull with that. Shrimp of that size can atack fish or fry. The small once like Cristal red or bee shrimp are fine. Make sure there is plenty of shelter for the shrimp were they can crawl under or behind when fish come close. Bolivians will snack some shrimp for sure so larger numbers is a must (start with at least 10 but preferable more). The large number is to make sure there are plenty of youngsters before the Bolivians snack all the shrimp.

I don't feed live foods only flakes, pellets, wafers and frozen. Live would be best for nutrition but you will have quit a high change for illness or parasites. Young fish you can feed with bbs and those are save to feed. You could grow out some bbs safely. Don't ever feed tubifex. This worm lives in polluted waters and mostly comes from suers. I do feed with a lot of variety. If a food provides all the fish need you could feed that every day like Blair already mentioned. I go for various foods to provide all the necessary stuff and the big plus of this is that the fish aren't''t picky abouth foods.


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## edburress

Hey guys I just wanted to do an update on my fry. Here is a picture at 7 weeks








and here is a picture at 8 weeks, after the facial banding and abdominal spot is developing. There look to be several "one spots" that I will keep, as well as one that has very bold facial markings, one abdominal spot, and a very prominent dorsal blotch, at the base of the first rays of the dorsal fin. I am fairly certain it is a male, and will defenitly be a keeper as well. The larger ones are getting little attitudes now during feeding, it is really funny to watch seeing as they are 3/4" and act so tough :lol: 








I have two groups, one at 10 weeks, the other at 3 weeks, I will try and collect another group and then place the pair back in a community tank to suppress their breeding. Hopefully I will get a couple good fry that are more stunning than their papa...









Ed


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## traumatic

Hey, cool Ed. The babies look great. That male is definitely stunning.


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## Dutch Dude

Ed,.... :thumb: Very nice good looking healthy fry and a beautiful male!!!


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## edburress

thanks for the kind words guys!

Ed


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## blairo1

Lookin' good Ed, almost ready for Bolivian of the Year!?


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## curt_914

ok guys here are a few pics of mine... I hope this works.








This first one is a fuzzy one of my big guy Spike








Spike again he is a little over 1 inch








Spike back shot








Small group








A couple others

I am still working with the camera. I think pics will be better when they get to the 55 gallon. I have been battleing with algee in this tank since its inception and as soon as these guys get moved out it is in for a good cleaning as the 10 gallon is going to be set up as the Quarintine tank.

Curt

Curt


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## eco-mod

Well a not very happy day today... Apparently my 2 bolivians that I 'rescued' are on a killing spree and killed my pair of german blues and now 2 rummynose... They are going in the 'not so nice' tank tonight. Needless to say I'm not very happy about this.


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## curt_914

Bump...
Hey Eco How did the move go with the rams??

I have noticed that 2 of my corries are missing some of there tails. I am gusseing that my bolivians are nipping fins.... Any thoughts? I Refinanced the car and dont have to make any payments, untill after the first of the year. So I can have the tank up and running by december 1st. I hope they can hold out that long and I dont lose any.

Curt


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## edburress

curt_914....the picture is not very clear, but I believe your guy "spike" is a female. In pic #3 the vent might be visible, which looks to large and blunt to be a males. But I cannot tell for sure in that picture. About your corydoras, bolivians will rarely harm other fish, although corys are one of the only fish that my bolivians will actually nip, all the other fish they will just dart at, and put on a good show of gesturing. So I suppose it is possible that they are causing the fin damage on the cories. The only other instance I can think of is when bolivians will nip the forehead of another bolivian, and this is usually between and male and female during courting, or between a dominant female and subdominant female and neither situation rsults in damage to a fish.

eco-mod....I can't believe bolivians would kill german rams! I have never seen this, but will admit on the forum we have heard a lot of similar stories lately. Sorry for your loss, blue rams are a beautiful species.

Ed


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## Dutch Dude

Hi guy's,....I jump in abouth aggression issues. I never notices my Bolivians nibbing fins of corydoras but,...I can imagine why they could do it. Corydoras won't let them hunt away and especially if they notice eggs. So the corydoras can be hard to get ride of and the Bolivians will protect their territory! Annoying cory's can be face to face with a mad Bolivian! If I'm correct Kim has had some problems to. Her Bolivians were spawning and claimed a big part of the tank. Eco-mod,.....what is the size of your tank and what's the temp? Did you had a pair of Bolivians? In some rare cases people tell abouth territorial Bolivians that are in charge over a 55 gallon tank or even larger. Blair does have such a pair. I noticed that in most of those cases the fish were in small numbers like a pair or 1 male and 2 female. I never heard of this behaviour if they are kept in a small group. Coincidence? I can not imagine that your Bolivians killed the Rummynose and the GBR! Are you sure abouth this? Were they damaged, missing scales, ripped of fins? What is the size of the tank and what were the inhabitants?

Ruurd


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## curt_914

Hey Guys Thanks for chimeing in. I am going to try to get some beter Pics tonight. Also Sounds like jen is getting a job offer tomorrow so it is going to be easier to breath money wise!!!! I can finally get the tank going! Thanks for the thoughts on the fins, The rams do seem to be becoming more teratorial. The only reason I think spike might be a male is the crown. The 3 front rays are elongated but again I will try to get some pics tonight. I am going to try to net them and put them in my live bearer breeder floot tank for the pics.

Curt


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## andrew__

From what I've seen of my rams they will definately attack corys when they are guarding eggs, but only if they get close, and they ignore them at all other times. It would definately be possible for them to do some damage though, these rams are the toughest fish in my tank (granted I've never really seen my angels go all out).

edburress: Love the shots :thumb:

------------

And now a shot of my own. I was trying to take a picture of a plant but my female ram just would not get out of the way, so I took a shot of her instead:










Colour's a bit off, I blame the flash, but overall I think I love this phone  (Sony Ericsson k790a). She always gets really colourful when they've got eggs.

And another from the last time they had wrigglers (they were about a day away from free swimming, I gave them to someone who had time to look after them, don't know about their success rate though.):


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## FishBliss

Hello Everyone,

I'd like to introduce myself. Blair found me over on AquariaCentral and invited me to join the club -- I have to say, I feel very humbled in the company of so much knowledge and experience!

With Blair's expert and extremely kind coaching I have purchased a pair of BRs -- I'll try to include pics here. I've had them for a week now and I'm already so very fond of them.

I have a 29 gal tank -- had it for 5 years, but always with coldwater fish. So I'm used to fishkeeping, but this is my first experience with tropicals so everything is new again. I'm very excited about life with Rams.

The other tank mates are 3 julii cories -- 3 more are on the way. I'm extremely fond of the cories, too. Who wouldn't be!

My tank is decorated with plastic plants, but the plan is to move to real plants as I gain confidence. I saw the post about Blair's oak leaf aquascape and I'm still gasping with admiration at the beauty of that tank! Now that I've found BRs I will plan everything in the tank to suit them. Plants, tankmates, etc.

So I'm browsing for suggestions on anything and everything. Totally open to anything you all have to offer. I've been reading this (very long) thread from it's beginning, and I'm looking forward to being involved.

hm, haven't figured out how to include an image....pics will have to come later....


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## blairo1

Hey *FishBliss*, welcome!

You're too kind by the way. :lol:

Images are added here using the button that says Img, you take the URL of the picture and insert it between







. Or if you have a photobucket account there is a selection box under the photo's that says IMG tag (or code or something), click that and it will copy it for you, then just paste it here.

I'll PM you about a couple of things, in the meantime you might want to ask Dutch Dude what he likes to feed his Bolivians, Ruurd (Dutch Dude) has kept Bolivians alive for up to and beyond 7 years! That's pretty incredible.

I'm sure the others will say hello shortly, there's a bunch of us nuts.


Blair.


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## edburress

FishBliss....welcome to the BRC :thumb:


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## curt_914

Allright guys,

Tips for doing a photo shoot for these little guys?? An Jen Got the Job!! I will try to get pics this weekend as I am back to mon - fri at work.

Curt


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## Dutch Dude

Andrew,...thanks for sharing! I hope the wigglers on the pic became nice fish! Didn't you had the time to raise them?

FishBliss,.....Welcome to the BRC :thumb: 
Well you found yourself a very good coach and if you follow his advice I'm sure you will be OK :wink:

I suggest to get ride of those fake plants and add some real once. Real plants do look much nicer as those fake plants and some species are quit easy. Java Fern, Egeria Densa, Anubia, Valisneria (spiralis).

A nice suggestion as tank mates are Otocynclus. They are a dwarf sucker mouth catfish and do eat diatom algae or soft algae. They also clean up small food particles. They are realy fun to watch and at the same time a cleaning crew.

You read the "story so far" and came by a lot of info. If you have some questions,..... just ask 

Ruurd


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## FishBliss

Hi everyone -- thanks for the welcome.

Ruurd, you have made good suggestions for plants, i'll look into them. I'm totally new at live aquatic plants so I know very little in terms of light, nuitrition, size, floating vs rooted, life span...

My intention is to cater to the Rams -- I understand they prefer lower light -- so I'll look into plants that will thrive in that condition. What do they think about moss, about floating plants, about short leafy plants, about tall knife-leaf plants, about grassy plants that cover the sand bottom?

I'm used to my land-based garden so I need to find out about water-based gardening -- elementary questions like: is sand all you need on the bottom? are the plants "planted" in hidden pots or just in the sand? I hear people talking about CO2 so what do I need to know/do about that? I hear people talk about lights and timers and algae....I suspect there is a whole world of knowledge I don't have that I should attain before I try to raise plants!

I'm full of questions...no need to answer everything....just letting you know the depth of my ignorance!


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## FishBliss

My rams don't seem to like each other any more. Well, to be more precise, the male seems intolerant of the female.

I've had them a week and for most of that time they have traveled side by side, or at least in the near vicinity. But today I noticed they were on opposite sides of the tank and tonight I can see that the male is being very aggressive in keeping the female over to one side. I dropped their food in a central spot and if she ventures out to eat he darts at her and clearly forces her back. I thought that maybe he was especially hungry so I added a tiny bit more food -- so he would see there was plenty. But he still chases her away. Right now I am watching them -- he is hiding behind a plant, observing the food area. She is inching closer, still mostly behind the rock on her side, but as she inches, he also inches -- ever so slightly -- so that you can tell he will dart at her if she crosses a certain line. If she retreats so does he and you can see him relax.

What has happened?

I did change the water today, as I do every Saturday. They didn't mind the water change last week... I also removed some mollies and platies that I had planned to take out. And I added a school of head and tail light tetras. The water parameters are the same as before the water change.

Will this pass or should I worry about the female? or the male, for that matter? Will he actually harm her or will he simply cause her to starve and be stressed?

I was at the fish store this evening and they had exactly one BR -- it seemed pretty clearly to be a female. I was so tempted to bring her home but I didn't because I didn't want to break up the pair that already seemed happy together...maybe I should have brought her home?


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## blairo1

*FishBliss*, this is what I mentioned before about how one may be ready to mate but the other is not.

On top of this I think we need to get some driftwood in the tank to really break things up for them, until you know exactly what you want to do. Get the driftwood next time you go and whilst you're there I'd pick up the other female, IF you're really confident it is a female, whilst you're there also pick up your sand. We need to get this tank set-up for them asap. Having a couple of females to disperse the males aggression could work very well whilst you are trying to get them to optimum health, or at least ready to breed. The third (and inferior) female can always be removed once a pair has bonded.

Is the male showing better colouration or is he still showing stress spots?

Finally, to ease your mind a little, very little damage is ever done with Bolivians, they may look like they're really going for it but they're actually pretty controlled, even after a week or so of harassment from a male the worst a healthy female can expect is tattered fins.

Keep feeding them, use a pipette to direct pellets to the female if the male is guarding the general grounds, it is important you keep her strength up and as long as you do she will be able to fend him off, or at least tolerate his boisterousness.

Chances are he has tried to initiate pairing and the female is not yet ready (ie doesn't have enough energy for egg production etc) so it has failed, the activity you describe sounds very much like an eager male impatient for the female to breed. What would normally happen is that she would lip lock and peck back at him, showing her strength, flaring at one another and slapping their tail fin into one another, this is how the bond is formed, this will happen a few times before they will bond and it is a test of the strength and ability of a potential mate - they want the strongest and most able mate.

If my male initiates spawning with the female and she is not ready he will chase her around the tank whenever he can see her and he really doesn't give up, it's not just a short chase like you are experiencing, so I would not worry, it sounds fairly normal for a pair in a new environment, testing one another's strengths and willingness to spawn. With my male I continue to feed them, I direct more food at the female and increase the feeding a little to really top up her energy, a couple of days of that and she's back at HIS side, wacking him with her tail to spawn.

I'll bet you it's because they're on a decent feed now, plus you did a WC so water conditions are good - probably the first chance they've ever had at spawning so one of them went for it and that lead to all of the above. If you can get more pics of the male that would be great, I want to be sure it is in fact a male (although this sounds like classic pre-spawning fallouts).


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## FishBliss

Thanks for the encouraging words. The female has shown some cheekiness today -- she sneaks over to the forbidden territory when he isn't looking -- she isn't frightened -- and if he chases her she turns around and darts back at him -- in the way you are describing. They are both flaring at one another almost constantly. It sounds normal from what you describe.

I'm not at all accustomed to judging behaviors of these type of fish, and I'm so excited to be learning about them. I just sit in front of the tank watching their every move. I'm completely captivated.

Just a question about driftwood vs rocks. Right now the tank is pretty clearly divided into 3 sections using tall rocks that have holes (I rearranged yesterday and they seem to enjoy swimming in and out of all the holes.) They have decided that Her section on the left, His on the right, and there is a central middle section. (Cories at the bottom, tetras all over the place.) Do rocks arranged this way create the proper setting? If I get driftwood would I arrange it similarly?

I will get sand today -- I have a day off so I'll spend time playing in the water! Like a day at the beach.

Regarding the males coloring, I will try to post pics today. (this site makes it a tad bit more difficult....) You can tell me if this is normal. Perhaps it is and I don't yet know enough to judge.

As always, I appreciate the input. I don't think these lovely creatures would get the care they deserve without all the information everyone on these forums is so willing to share.


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## FishBliss

Hi Ruurd,

I went to the fish store to look at otos. They had only one. Very small. I didn't get him. I've been reading about otos and the information I get is that they need companions -- so 3 or 4 is best -- and they are delicate. I've also seen that there are quite a number of types.

I'll continue to think about them -- I would like to add a couple -- but I don't want to kill them, either! 

Have you had good luck with otos? I imagine you have because it sounds like you are an especially experienced fish keeper...Any particular type you like best?

Blair recommended that I ask you what / how you feed the BRs -- so, before you take your time to repeat what you have already said, I'm reading this thread to glean that information. 8)

I looked at the live plants available at the fish store and they looked sort of patchy and not so beautiful. So I'm looking into other sources.

Again, thanks for the encouragement. (actually, the Rams thank you)


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## blairo1

Hey,

Yeah sounds like the normal behaviour of a male and female working things out again, I wouldn't get that other female - from what you describe it sounds like the male is feeling much better and starting to show spawning interest with this female. She is responding, that is good.

Get the sand in first, that's the first step. Once you've done that you can get the driftwood in, let it all settle for half an hour and then get the filters running, preferably with a fine sponge over the intake to help remove the tiny particles and stop them getting into the canister/impeller. The sponges can be removed after an hour or two as most of the particles will have sunk or will have been removed by the filter sponges. Make sure you give yourself a good couple of inches between sand and filter intake.

With driftwood you don't really need to arrange it, just go random - let it pile up on one another, some pieces coming right to the front, others running along the length of the tank, pointing in the air etc. However you like it to look and as long as there are at least 3 or 4 little areas where the female can hide, and a few "sides" where if a fish is they are out of sight from the other side.

Anything more is just personal preference. As you do plan on having a few plants take this into account with the driftwood and make sure to leave enough little gaps here and there to plant in.

You're well on your way.


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## eco-mod

Well things are going alot better now. I moved the bolivian pair into their own 30 gallon, I just need to get some sand and rearrange the tank. Picked up 5 new german rams in absolutly great condition. I've decided from now on it is definatly worth the hour and a half drive to this pet store. Acclimated very well, ate less than an hour after introducing them, and one pair has already formed with another in the works. I'm gonna try and get some pics of both the bolivians and the germans up here today.


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## blairo1

Sounds good eco-mod. Keep us updated!


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## FishBliss

ok, I'm going to try to post some pics. They are not the very best, but they show how well the male especially has acclimated to the new life. I changed to sand today. I got play sand from the lumber yard -- it turned out to have a slightly pink cast to it which I think is fantastic. The fish are very happy in it. Not stressed by the change at all. In fact, if you look at the picture of the male taken yesterday (blue gravel) and the one today an hour after the sand was done you'll see a big difference.

see shutterfly below --


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## FishBliss

http://share.shutterfly.com/action/...id=0AcuHLJi4cN2Lko&auto=0&m=1&d=1194821329076


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## FishBliss

hm, well, some more experimenting with how to get photos on here. The link to shutterfly will work, but it's a pain to go out to a different page -- better to get them in the thread....

I'll keep trying. Sorry about the trial posts -- there is no way to try it before you post it!

Cynthia


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## Dutch Dude

Cynthia (Fishblis),....Oto's do best in groups of 5. If you would add 10 they split up in 2 groups of 5. So I suggest to take 5 or 10 or 15. They are small fish but I would not buy them if they are smaller as 1 inch. When you add them to the tank make sure you take your time to mix the water in the back with the water from your tank. Oto's are sensitive to big changes in water chemistry and this is the main cause of them to die. Some Oto's do need low temps but those are very rare in the hobby. Most seen are the Vittatus and Affinis and they are save up to 76. I have had some good luck with Oto's. People say they are hard to keep alive but this isn't true. Most people keep them at to high temps and that will shorten their lifespan dramatically! They are sensitive when they are newly introduced. The first 2 to 3 weeks are critical. If they go trough it you will very much enjoy this specie!!! They are real fun to watch and are great tankmates for Bolivians!

About the foods,....I feed various foods like good quality flakefood like Tetra Pro crisps, small discus pellets (tetra or hikari), shrimp pellets, algae wafers tetra vegetable and every once in a while some frozen. I used to feed them more often frozen (3 times a week) but at that point they were sharing a tank with some Geophagus Bahia Red. Those definitely need high protein foods and becouse they were tank mates my Bolivians also feed on it. Now I feed only once a week frozen. Blair does have a different feeding schedule. The most important is that fish get all those vitamins and minerals they need to be healthy fish. I believe I can provide this with feeding different foods. The big plus of that is your fish won't get used to one particular food.

About the sand,...rinse it very well!!!! If not your tank will be foggy for quit some time!!!

The behaviour of your Bolivians in normal behaviour. Their social behaviour is realy fun to watch especially in groups of 5 or more. They quarrel a lot but also join in a group. The nicest quarrels are just after feeding time :wink:

Unfortunately your pic doesn't show. Hopefully it will succeed and I'm realy curious.

I would realy like to help you out with lots of info but unfortunately I'm very bussy and don't have much time to spend lately. I'm sure Blair guides you and he is a very knowledgeable person! We rarely disagree :wink:

Did you checked plants like Java fern, Anubia and Egeria?

Eco-mod,....sounds good and I'm realy curious at the pics!!! :thumb:


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## Over_Stocked

I have 29g SA Tank.

4 Bolivians( I think.. I can't find number 4)...
1 Angel
7 Neon Tetras
4 Mollies
2 Robo-Guppies

I did my normal 40% weekly change yesterday and put in a regenerated pouch of purigen.

I Regen the purigen in 1:1 bleach, then soak it in 3x dose of amquel, then rinse, then 2x dose of amquel.

I did my change, put purigen in, then walked away for an hour.

Came back to 2 dead neons right away. Two of my Bolivians are swimming irradically. Like one side is paralyzed. They swim in circles when spooked. My angel was wedged low in the tank but seems "ok" now. I have lost 3 more neons, and possibly a ram, but can't find him.

I thought it was the purigen, so took it out, put in cup of tank water and tested for chlorine--nothing.

My nitrates are 10, ph 6.8, temp 78, nitrites 0, ammonia 0.

I did another 50% change today, afraid something was contaminated, followed by 1.5x dose of amquel for whole tank.

I'm afraid I'm going to lose everything?

This is a planted tank, no co2, driftwood plentiful and it is on a strict 40% weekly change. I do my best to match temp of incoming water but have never had a problem with it.

What could cause this?


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## Dutch Dude

Well I don't exactly know what the stuff is but I read purigen (absorbing filter substrate) and you rinsed it in bleach??? Well according to a web site I found by Google I read that purigen can be regenerated with bleach. You probably know bleach kills bacteria right? So the bacteria on the surface of the Purigen is killed for sure. Do you use more filter substrates or sponges? How abouth the Amquel,....there is also a Amquel+ that should provide a stable PH. What are the addition's in the Amquel+ and is this the stuff you used? I realy do think it has to do with the regeneration of the Purigen (bleach) and or Amquel.


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## Over_Stocked

I used amquel+, from my understanding it's additions aren't "stable ph" as it says "does not in general affect water's ph". It claims it can reduce oxygen in tanks at first, but I have 3 hob filters and an air stone running right now.

Purigen is not my bio media. I have an ac70 with two spunges and bio rings, a penguin with filter floss and a cheapo with just rings in it. Besides, I wouldn't expect a change from the bio media to happen that quickly, and my tests all line up and there is zero ammonia.

I think it would have been either the bleach from purigen or from too much dechlor in neutralizing the bleach. I doubt it was the bleach as I can't find any trace of bleach in the water(chlorine test) or in the tank.

I may be afraid I overdosed amquel, but it does say I can give a bit more if needed to detoxify.

I hope atleast some survive, but it's hard to say now. All are lethargic, but atleast one bolivian hasn't been struck by the crazy swimming bug yet, and the angel seems to be coping. I haven't tried to feed yet as I don't want to muck up the waters.


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## Over_Stocked

Down to one ram, one angel, 2 neons, 3 mollies, 2 guppies. The ram and angel seem to be "breathing" heavy but aren't at the surface. The angel swims "funny" and gets stuck inbetween wood/rocks. The lone ram seems lethargic, but swims fine.

The other remaining fish seem ok. Any recomendations on the next step?


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## Dutch Dude

Everything points at the amquel+. I suggest to do a new measurement of the water (PH, KH, GH, NO2 and NO3) and do a large water change say 40% to 50%. DON'T add anything to the water and absolutely no Amquel! Just water at the same temperature as the tank water and that's it.

Pleas keep us updated and I like to know the new mesurements.


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## blairo1

Overstocked - the Amquel is a chlorine remover, right?

Bleach is chlorine, basically. So like Prime, Amquel etc will neutralise this. Based on that I would be very surprised if bleach was causing your problems.

What exactly does Amquel say about dosing - ie safe dosing? Is it like Prime that can be dosed up to 5x the normal?

I also notice it says safe for bacteria - that may be so at normal doses but at high doses the sulfides can cause harm to bacterial colonies, even wipe them out. I don't suspect that this is what happened but it's just a warning so you don't keep using so much.

Have you had any service work on your water lines? How about heavy rainfall the last few days? How far away from the plant are you? I'd phone them and ask if they've been doing any work in that time period, it could be that they flushed through a higher dose of chlorine, maybe they serviced a line and contaminants got in etc.

That would be the first thing I'd do - phone the water company.
Second thing I'd do if the water company can't help, use a different dechlorinating product and perform a 50% WC, this needs to happen ASAP.

Is there any possibility that some soap or remaining bleach on your hands could have come into contact with the tank/new water going in?

Hmm.


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## FishBliss

've had my pair of BRs for about a month -- they both seemed fine up until about 4-5 days ago. Now the male sits in a plant. At feeding time the female stations herself in the usual place, eager to eat. The male stays away. I never see him eat. I put shrimp pellets right in front of him and he seems not to notice at all. If he pecks at the sand he pecks near the food, but never right on the food. He is either really dumb, or has no sense of smell, or is sick -- or maybe depressed? The female has been interactive with him, they seemed to form a nice bond. But not any more. I think he may just fade away from not eating. Any ideas why or what to do?


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## Dutch Dude

He might be sick! The female is OK so probably it isn't something with the water. Did you recently changed something or added new fish and plants? Was this behaviour suddenly or slowly more and more? How abouth his eyes, and appearance? Do you notice something strange to the fish? Do you use CO2? How abouth the other tank inhabitants?


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## FishBliss

Everyone else in the tank is perky and happy, busy sifting the sand and eating and chasing and playing -- just like they should -- including the female BR.

The water quality is fine: 0, 0, 7, ph 7.4, temp 29C.

The one change I made was removing the gravel and putting sand 9 days ago. There was a slight spike in ammonia at that time, not very much, and 2 back to back water changes brought it back to normal. Everything was totally normal again by 2 days. None of the fish seemed stressed. They all seemed happier and more relaxed than ever. Especially the male BR. The male and female were interacting, chasing, lip-locking, tail slapping -- all good things.

He was hiding a little more about 3-4 days ago, but not all the time, but by yesterday he was hiding all the time and today also. He gets into the leaves of a tall plant and just sits there -- not at the bottom, not gasping at the top, just mid-water. His dorsal fin is raised, not clamped down. He doesn't LOOK sick. He just doesn't move around like he did before. He has always been a little shy -- can't take pictures of him -- but this is different.

Yesterday he did move down to the bottom so I dropped a shrimp pellet right in front of him. He never moved toward it at all. The female came to and ate it instead.

As I said, no one else seems upset at all. (3 cories, 10 head/tail light tetras, and the f BR)


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## FishBliss

Just to add, I don't have live plants, so no CO2, no decorations or fish have been added or changed. His eyes look clear, his fins look ok, his body doesn't have anything on it like fungus or worms.

He does have some spots that I have always assumed were stress related -- but he has always been like that -- sometimes more, sometimes less -- if I first turn on the light in the aquarium he gets more spots for a time or if I put the camera to the glass he gets more spots, so it seems that is just sort of his normal coloring. The spots never fully disappear.

I don't know what else could be stressing him. He's been happy for a month.


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## FishBliss

Just an update: On Sunday the driftwood I had purchased was ready to be installed. Now that 2 days have passed, the lethargic male has claimed territory above and under the driftwood, leaving the front and sides of the wood to the female. He is eating, although not heartily, and he is moving around now, within his own strict boundaries, but better than sitting inside one plant all day. He will accept food that falls in a certain area between two prongs of the wood but he won't venture away from that. He makes tiny advances toward the female -- as long as her back is turned and she isn't looking. She ignores him utterly.

In all the discussion about pairs I haven't seen comments on whether the female might be more dominant and whether she might be the one to reject the male. She seems perfectly happy, he seems dejected / rejected. (I might be anthromorphizing a bit...)

But I'm no longer worried about his health -- he doesn't seem in danger of death, only of unhappiness. But I'll let the driftwood continue to work its magic for a few more weeks and we'll see where he is then.


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## edburress

FishBliss....females can certainly reject males. The dramatic courting displays males put on are to display strength, fertility, and health. If a male is not performing such behavior that might be interpreted by the female as the male being too weak or unhealthy to spawn with, in which case she will not breed with him.

If he is not of good health, the female could be the dominant fish. I have never witnessed this with my fish, but I have had females that could out power subdominant males. I've had females who would not allow males near the eggs during the entire egg-stage, but this is a short period of female dominance.

Your bolivians don't sound like they have paired, but I would give your male more time to come around and see what happens, it's a good sign if he's established himself a territory on the wood.

Ed


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## blairo1

He really just needed that driftwood to provide the cover to allow them peace and quiet from one another, as well as an excluded area that can truly be deemed HIS territory. I did mention that it would make a big difference help, but you have to remember as well that there can be a long acclimation period with these fish before they feel comfortable in their a new homes.

If he's eating and has his territory, as well as making (blind) advances towards the female, it sounds like he's starting to feel at home and it won't be long before he's back to tricks.


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## Dutch Dude

Fishbliss,...for some reason I missed your posts.

I agree on Ed that the females are realy in charge. The courting of the males is to impress females. Once a female selected a male she can even put him to the test and flirt around with other males so both males will court again. Females can indeed be in charge over sub dominant and larger males! If the female thinks the male is to week it might be they both end up single and don't be a pair. The small black dots are stress marks and probably your male gets easely stressed out! The driftwood provides him a territory and hopefully he will be les stressed once he is used to his new environment.

Changing substrate causes a cycle of the tank so tat gave the spike and that was probably the reason why your male became stressed out.

Do you keep us updated?


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## curt_914

Hey Everyone, Just checking in. The BR are growing up well and I should be able to get them into there new home in about another month. I got my light fixture situated ( mom bought it for my birthday, 130 watt cf) as well as most plants situated. Just waiting on substraight now ( Have sand waiting to buy the eco complete). The wood has been soaking for a month in the cooler with a water change every couple of days. I have 2 pieces of grape vine, as well as some chunks of malysain driftwood. And beech pebels,

Hope all is well talk with you soon,

Curt


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## blairo1

Hey Curt glad to hear things are coming together for you, sounds good bud, keep us updated.

I have to say that I've changed out substrate on several occassions and I have never encountered even a mini-cycle - the amount of bacteria and it's efficiency in comparison to that of a well matured filter is pretty negligable IME. With a good filtration system and as I say, well established colonies, I've never seen even the slightest fluctuation - otherwise I'd be concerned because filters are there to provide us with that sort of stability. :thumb: You never know though - if the filters weren't running with good efficiency then some dependancy may well have been on the colonies within the gravel, however with such a light stocking I would be very doubtful, unless the filter was barely working at all....

Fishbliss - maybe you can refresh my memory of what filtration you have and how long it has been running, that could provide a more accurate answer. I seem to recall the tank being well filtered and certainly with well established bacterial colonies (within those filters) as it's been running for quite some time. I still suspect that the issue was due to the lack of cover in the tank causing stress, which in turn causes a loss of appetite, which in turn creates weakness, which leads to further stress - it's a vicious cycle that can be hard to break, I think you added the driftwood in the nick of time, much longer and you may have had some issues. As is, give it a couple of weeks of good feeding and see where things are at, I would imagine your male will be back to his usual self and raring to go....


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## blairo1

Ah sorry I just read the post I'd missed where you (FishBliss) did mention a spike in ammonia.

I find this really odd, what filtration do you have running? I've never had that problem before, but I do tend to "over" filter quite substantially so it could just be that. Hmmm.

The ammonia spike would very easily, when combined with



> lack of cover in the tank, caus_e_ stress, which in turn _would_ cause a loss of appetite, which in turn creates weakness, which leads to further stress - it's a vicious cycle that can be hard to break,


Sounds like things are ok now though, time will tell eh! Keep an eye on them and keep us updated, I'll keep a watch on the thread as I've been travelling a lot recently so keep missing posts etc, my apologies!


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## cichlidaholic

Just thought I'd throw a pic of some of my babies in the midst of things...










They seem to be really growing fast right now! Bossy little things, too! I accidentally left a small zebra (mbuna) in the tank when I moved the rams to the larger grow out, and they have harrassed that little guy to no end. :lol:

You gotta love something that tiny with that much attitude!

Kim


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## Dutch Dude

:lol: :lol: :lol: So Kim your babies harassed the Mbuna! They do have quit some attitude! Did you talked to them and pointed them to the fact one day they could be the victim? :wink: i surely would give them a good parental advice.  They look graet Kim and it can't be long now before they will defelop some pail blue in the paired fins and the first signs of red.

Curt,....good to hear and finally things come together. Waiting an other month can be a long time dough! :wink: Can we expect some tank shots in abouth 6 weeks,..what would you think?

Blair and Fishbliss,......if a tank with larger grain sized gravel is maintained for quit some time the gravel will be quit dirty. When the gravel is taken out most of the dirt will mix with tank water. The bacteria culture is established at the normal dirt amount and not at the extra dirt from the gravel. This could cause a ammonia spike! An other reason could be that not only the filter contains bacteria but they are all over your tank and also on the substrate. In the case of gravel this is not only on top but also between the gravel. Removing the gravel is removing a large aria with bacteria. In a healthy tank and well seeded filter those bacteria will establish fast but it could cause a mine cycle. So I'm not surprised abouth the ammonia spike.


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## curt_914

Dutch- Less then 6 weeks!! If I can get the substraight situated I will be posting pics of the build!

The 2 corries I had with the fin problem died a couple days ago. Otherwise everyone looks to be healthy. I am tradeing in my Iridecent sharks this weekend to a lfs I have here in town on sunday. I am also going to be looking for some bio agents to help jump start the cycleing in the new tank. I will get some more curent pics of the little guys up later in the week. I just did a water change and pulled a bunch of **** out of the tank. color on the little guys has faded a bit since the change but they are still bratty as ever. I am going to try the big tank with no co2 to start but we shall see how it goes. Any recomendations on fertlizers for the tank?

Curt


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## blairo1

Dutch Dude said:


> Blair and Fishbliss,......if a tank with larger grain sized gravel is maintained for quit some time the gravel will be quit dirty. When the gravel is taken out most of the dirt will mix with tank water. The bacteria culture is established at the normal dirt amount and not at the extra dirt from the gravel. This could cause a ammonia spike! An other reason could be that not only the filter contains bacteria but they are all over your tank and also on the substrate. In the case of gravel this is not only on top but also between the gravel. Removing the gravel is removing a large aria with bacteria. In a healthy tank and well seeded filter those bacteria will establish fast but it could cause a mine cycle. So I'm not surprised abouth the ammonia spike.


Ruurd, I guess I never had this problem because I always did a large WC with deep gravel clean before the change, then refilled, then left for an hour or two, then removed the gravel and did another large WC. You know me with my water parameters - never saw a spike. What you say makes sense in the scenario where that large amount of waste is suddenly released into the water without being removed as this, technically, is like having a huge bio-load all of a sudden.


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## Dutch Dude

Curt,....be carefull with ferts and pleas no chemicals,...those can give you a lot of troubles. In a new set up the most important is to grow a good bacterial culture and have some plants that consume a lot of nitrate and produce oxygen. Best bacteria are the liquid once. The multiply quit fast. The dried bacteria is also an option but they can couse a cout on the surface and do need more time to multiply. They are cheaper dough. Best plants to cycle a tank are the Egeria Densa. You can never have to many of those in a cycling tank. I would not add any ferts for the first month! After that you can add some iron ferts (important with Echinodorus) and or some liquid ferts. Be carefull with those becouse to much can trigger a algea explosion. Your from the UK? If so,...I'm loving the ferts of Dennerle (German product).

Blair,....yes I can imagine you didn't have had this problem and always keep your tanks spotless clean!!! Extremely clean to be more specific :lol: So in your case the amount of waste already was very low and the waste that came free after removing the gravel was cleaned out with your second WC.


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## FishBliss

Yes, I was mildly surprised that there was an ammonia spike -- though it was very small, about .25, and a few water changes cleared it up within a day or two. No other parameter was pushed out of balance. I (thought I) was very careful when I changed the gravel -- I kept the filter running, kept 90% of the original water, vacuumed the gravel first -- so I didn't think much would change. I would guess that Ruurd's theory of kicking up more dirt than normal is the right one.

I was pleased with the actual process of changing the substrate. I followed Blair's suggestion for putting down the sand -- found a small cup that had an opening small enough for my hand to cover, filled it with sand, stuck both my arms up to the armpits into the tank and delivered the sand directly to the spot, with almost no drift at all. The water was clear, right from the start.

And I do think I put the driftwood in place in the nick of time. The male's behavior is still very wimpy, but at least he eats and covers a little territory in the tank. He is kind of undignified though -- the female will dart at him and as he scrambles to get away he turns and bangs into plants or the wood or the filter...he's a bit like a cartoon character scrambling away in a panic. I hope he develops a little more courage -- otherwise I can't blame her for not liking him! I might have to give him some delicate name to fit his timidity -- I could call him Stan (as in Laurel & Hardy). She, on the other hand, seems to be more like Brunhilde.

The filter I have is an AquaClear Powerhead 301 with a Quick Filter on it. Several years ago I had an AquaClear 30 power filter but for some reason I didn't like that. Although I've had this tank for 5 years I have only just now really started to take the hobby seriously and my education about filtration is pretty elementary. I dropped hints to the relatives that gift certificates to fish supply sites and stores would be most useful and my plan is to upgrade the filter next. Any knowledge about filtration as it applies to Bolivian Ram tanks (since I'm now dedicated to that!) would be great.

About the baby Rams -- how big are they now? And how many are there?


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## Dutch Dude

You can check the equipment & supplies discussion abouth filtration. I do like the Eheim canister and I hear very good comments abouth the cheaper Marineland filter to! A Bolivian don't need a special filtration and for them the same as a planted tank.


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## peterl

I don't remember if I have posted in this thread, (i.e. joined the club!) and I don't feel like scrolling through 47 pages  to find out!

Anyway, here are some pics of my recently set-up 55 gallon tank. I have a pair of female BRs that were housed in a 29 gallon for a year, along with a shoal of Green Fire Tetras (Aphyocharax rathbuni), three cardinals that I moved out of my 15 gallon shrimp tank, four misc. corys (C. aeneus I think) and a Starlight Pleco (L182). I moved the whole shebang to the 55 last Sunday. I think I am going to add another 3 Rams as soon as my LFS has them or I find a local breeder.

All of the plants were propagated in my 15 gallon tank. Until Sunday, the sword in the middle took up a quarter of my 15!

I am running two AC 500s with sponges only, two 100W Visitherm Stealth heaters, and Power-Glo tubes in the hoods. The substrate is 40# Eco-Complete mixed with ~ 20# 3M CQ black S-grade.

The 15 gallon houses ~12-13 Red Cherry Shrimp, 3 Amano shrimp, 4 Otos, and a breeding pair of Sterbai Corys. The now empty 29 will soon be set up for Shellies, probably one of the Lamprologus species and a shoal of White Cloud Mountain Minnows.

Peter


----------



## Donna &amp; David

You guys got me, I finally joined your club :lol: I just got a pair (thanks to your perfect pics and description) and am enjoying them already! Personality plus compared to my GBR. Thanks to everyone here who made me take a second look at a entertaining little fish that I would have otherwise not noticed!


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## FishBliss

Horray! I'm no longer the newest kid on the block! Welcome.


----------



## Katie Rose

Neither one of you will be disappointed, these fish have lots personality. You both might want to think about treating your fish with medicated food right off the bat. Metro+ is my standard medicine for all newcoming rams. It is distributed by Hikari, and it doesn't dissolve well in water so feeding is the best way to administer it.

I dissolve a pinch in a 1/2 tablespoon warm/hot water and stir like crazy. (I use a shot glass). Then I pour it over their food. It kills off internal protozoa and parasites. It is very safe medicine, it won't harm your fish unless you feed it to them for long periods of time. Feed 5 days, 2-3 times/day. You can freeze leftover food and use it instead of making up a batch everytime. I usually use bloodworms to deliver the medicine - thaw them on a pile of napkins to get as much fluid out of them as possible. Then pour the medicated water over and let soak in a bit.

It occurs to me that I've been recommending the Metronidazole, flubendazole and fenbendazole lately. So, here is a link to this great fish guy's site. I'll include a direct link to one of his papers, but if you go to inkmkr.com/fish, you'll find links to other papers concerning this type of medicine and the great effects they have sick fish.

Hope everyone who celebrates Thanksgiving had a good day yesterday and is happily avoiding the shopping malls today like me!
Cathy

http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/FlubendazoleArticle.pdf


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## blairo1

Peter, lovely tank. I'm sure you've posted before but not so recently :thumb:.

Donna and David, welcome to the club! You might find this article (only a couple of grammatical errors to be worked out) by Ruurd and I helpful:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/m ... pinosa.php

My sexing one will be up anytime soon as well, but Eric has been working away like a champ so no pressure there.

Cathy - my first thanksgiving in the 19 years I've been coming here, man, I'm still stuffed from yesterday! Nice to have your wisdom drop in  - I don't have much experience with medicating (call me lucky if you will) so it's good to see you around.

Yes, I will be avoiding the malls, like the plague! Sales, pssh, everything is at least half price to me anyway, what with the exchange rate, hehehe.

:thumb: 
Blair.


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## mleibowi

Hi all. I'm thinking about adding either bolivian or blue rams to a 46gal bow. I have 2 beautiful large angels in the tank, 2 yo-yo loaches, and 1 bristlenose pleco. I'm planning on adding rummy nose tetras as well. I was wondering- I was planning on adding a male & female ram to my tank, but after reading the link on rams, it looks like my tank could accomodate 5 or more. If I get 5 rams, what should the male:female ratio be? If I were to get a male and female, would they necessarily pair up? Lastly, I was thinking of using a gravel substrate, as opposed to sand. I think my plants would do better in a gravel substrate. Any thoughts on what substrate would be best for my tank? thanks!


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## FishBliss

I would like those of you with trained eyes to look at the pics of my rams to verify that one is indeed female and the other is male. I was pretty certain at first, but the more I look at them them less certain I am.

One of them has a fairly prominent vent, but I've looked again and again at the pics on Blair's sexing guide and I'm not convinced it's a female -- the fins seems to just scream male...

The other ram is so timid, fins seem male, no visible vent, very shy and hard to photograph.

I'm just wondering because I either have a very aggressive female or I have 2 males....judging from their behavior...

the top 2 pics are Ram B, the bottom 2 pics are Ram A -- please set my mind at ease, folks...

(it's my understanding that you can click these thumbnails for a bigger image -- let me know if this is not true -- i'm new to photobucket...)


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## FishBliss

mleibowi said:


> Lastly, I was thinking of using a gravel substrate, as opposed to sand.


Hi Mleibowi -- I'm not experienced enough to answer your stocking question, but I can contribute my experience with sand so far. I got my pair of bolivian rams when my tank had gravel. They didn't seem as happy as they should have been and the folks here strongly suggested sand. I changed to sand and the comfort of my rams was visibly improved. They immediately set to work sifting the sand, something they didn't do with gravel. The other addition that made a big difference was the driftwood. (had rocks before) They really appeared to be more relaxed with the wood in place.

And my cories were extremely excited about the sand.

And I'm excited because it just looks so beautiful.

I don't have plants but I will in the future and I anticipate success, judging from what I've read.


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## blairo1

Second two pics are of a female.

First two, no vent visible, head shape indicates a male, but with no clear or visible vent it's almost an impossibility - I've noticed more and more with the Rams recently that females are showing a lot of male characteristics. This really confuses things further as it means that to really be certain you need to see that vent shot.

Pic one is showing a fish that needs more food, he (I stick with male for now) needs to be fed up - use a pipette so that you can really get the food right to him without the female realizing what's going on. She is ready to breed and if she's harassing him chances are it's because she wants to spawn, but he just doesn't have the energy to do it. Get some mysis shrimp, or bloodworm, and use the pipette to feed him, he will go straight for it and it's an easy fast way to give him the energy boost he is in need of to give him a headstart.

I stick with male and female because the behavior you have described to us between the two is typical of a male and female "flirting". If both were females you would never have seen such behavior to describe to us.

Glad you're enjoying the tank! Any chance of a full tank shot now?!

Blair.


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## FishBliss

All righty, then! You've helped me, once again.

I'll pipe the food in, special delivery, and hope for a happier fish.

Full tank shot....well, ok....battery is charging, so later tonight. Though I've had a tank running for 5 years I was never serious until now -- had the standard goldfish / castle / cartoon colors going on (having little kids does that to you) So there is lots and lots of room for improvement.

So far, in my 'grown-up' tank, I've changed to sand (didn't know you could do that), changed to driftwood (didn't know you could do that), changed to tropical warm water fish, and cichlids, to boot! (never expected to do that). Live plants on the horizon...


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## blairo1

:lol: Cool stuff!


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## mleibowi

Thanks, I went with the Eco complete substrate. I have a nice piece of driftwood in the tank and plenty of plants. The Angel I have begun laying eggs on a large sword leaf. I haven't gotten the rams yet, but I'm thinking about it.


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## FishBliss

okay, here is my tank -- with a very humble disclaimer that I am not an artist and it is a work very much in progress.

See if you can spot both Rams and one of the cories. The other inhabitants are 10 head and taillight tetras.


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## edburress

FishBliss....the rams and tank are looking good!

Blair and Ruurd....I just had a chance to read the article, very nice and professional :thumb:

Ed


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## cdc

Hi all,
I have been following this thread for awhile. I had bolivians a while back and just realized I really miss having them.
I have a 90g with 1 gold severum, 1 blue dempsey, 1 chocolate cichlid, 5 bosemani rainbows, 4 green swordtails, 1 clown plec and a raphael I haven`t seen in months. 
What would be a good number for this tank?
Filtration is 2 Aquaclear 500 and 2 powerheads with 30% water change every 5 days.
Thanks~


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## edburress

cdc....I am not experienced with dempseys (blue or reg) nor the chocolate cichlid. My only worry is that they would be too aggressive for the bolivians if they were adults. I am also not sure how big those fish get, you might be pushing stocking capacity, but I simply am not familiar enough with those species to offer quality advice.

if I am not mistaken cichlidaholic has a juvi blue dempsey with her bolivians. Maybe she can offer better advice.

You probably have room for a small group but I worry they might get picked on.

Ed


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## cichlidaholic

I _do_ have 2 pairs of Bolivians in with my juvenile EBJDs. But it is not a long term set up!

Right now, my rams are in charge, but once the EBJDs mature a bit, I'm afraid that might change, so I don't plan to leave them together and take any chances.

The juvenile EBJDs are from 3 1/2 inches to 2 1/2 right now, and are fairly passive. The little rams are very bossy and constantly running the EBJDs out of their territories. Once the EBJDs get larger, I don't think they will tolerate that very well. :lol:

In other words, I think I'm only getting away with it because the rams are mature and the blues aren't!

Kim


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## Dutch Dude

Peterl.......great tank and fish :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: You made me jealous! :wink:

Donna Dave,.....congratulations and welcome to the club :thumb:

Mleibowi,.....welcome to the BRC! For a planted tank sand is suitable and small gravel grain size of 0,1 inch. My previous planted tanks were always tanks with the small gravel. I provided my plants a high quality clay based substrate and had a thick layer of 3 to 4 inch gravel on top. Plants did well and were good looking. One minus on gravel is that dirt get trapped in it and in time the layer of gravel will become quit dirty. Some of my Bolivians became 7 years of age in tanks with gravel substrate. I'm convinced it the fish weren't happy in their environment they would never had reached that age. So the small gravel is no problem at all! I would not recommend larger grain size becouse even more dirt get trapped in it and decaying can be a problem.

Recently I escaped my tank and put in sand. I first tried the sand substrate in a grow out tank and a temporarely tank. Recently I set up a new home for my Bolivians and everything goes well. The plants grow nice and the Bolivians love the sand. For them it is more easy to dig pits and they sift the sand for food. I did added the same substrate underneath the sand but only put a 2 inch layer of sand on it. The sand is much more easy to clean and does look natural. So far so good,....plants are doing fine and my fish love their new home.

Fish Bliss,.....fish A could be a male. I agree with Blair that it is very hard to see with this specimen and one of the reasons could be that he needs to be beefed up and need more food. Fish B is a female. About the tank,.....nice looking!..... but I have to be honest,...it would have looked much much better with real plants. If it were only the cheapest and easiest plants like Jave fern and Egeria densa.

Ed,...thanks bud for the nice words abouth the article! You see,....space left for yours :wink:

CDC,...just like Ed I'm a bit worried abouth the Chocolate and the JD! Bolivians are brave little fish but when a JD shows some aggression the little Bolivians won't make a change! I reed that JD come in different taste,....some more peppered and some regular. So this also depends on the age and the temperament of your fish. You already have 3 large cichlids that could couse some territorial issues in the future.

Kim,....


> In other words, I think I'm only getting away with it because the rams are mature and the blues aren't!


I'm convinced of that and you made a good point!


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## nozar

really interested in these fish. possible i could purchase a pair online?


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## mleibowi

Thanks dutch dude. Right now I put in Seachem Eco Complete substrate, and it seems to be working fine. In other words, the plants aren't dying. My current stock list is 2 mature angelfish, 12 black neons, 15 harlequins, 2 yo-yo loaches, and 1 BN pleco. My angels have been very aggressive lately, and I'm concerned that may be the same sex. Depending on the advice I hear from folks, I may return one of the angels, and get a pair of german rams, or blue rams. Unfortunately, my LFS only has female rams for the time being. Would it work if I bought rams seperately, ie a female, then a male later on? Or should I buy a male-female together and introduce them at the same time? It's a well planted tank (46gal bow), with a nice piece of driftwood, and a couple caves.


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## Dutch Dude

Mleibowi,....good to hear the tank is doing fine,...except for the aggression issues with the angels. Bolivians and GBR are quit different fish so I do know something abouth Bolivians but my knowledge on GBR is limited. I would prefer to buy a male and female at the same time. Some fish get easely stressed if there isn't a partner or potential partner.


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## Ceelo

Well, reading through this thread really inspired me to get some rams! I have a 30G and looking for some advice, tips and all that jazz that can help me start one out.


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## WakinAZ

hey all,

Picked up four a week or so ago to do a 75 gal Cookie Cutter setup with some discus. I have really grown to appreciate them - they never seem to cease bickering amongst themselves, while they ignore the tetras and corys. They have colored up very nicely in my tank after looking so-so in the LFS tank (typical of just about all fish). I picked these instead of the Blues because they are supposed to tolerate a wider range of water chemistry, conditions, etc. My water has a high pH and hardness, but I change 50-75% each week, so it's hard but clean. Discus arrive next week so we'll see how it goes...

WA


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## edburress

Ceelo....I have two pairs in a 30 gallon (36"x12") without any problems. With two pairs the tank needs to be scaped specifically with the females in mind...plenty of refuge and sight breaks so they can avoid the males between spawnings. Sometimes males can harass them to the point where they can become stressed out if such cover is not provided. If you're comfortable sexing them you could get 2m/2f, if not you could get a group of 5 and go from there. three females would be fine initially but IME in this ratio the males will not switch partners so the odd female will lead an unfair life and need to be removed eventually.

A small group of 8-12 tetra would be good as companions. I have kept rummy-nose, lemon tetra and gold tetra with my bolivians. A lot of people also recommend ottos very highly. If you are not worried about losing eggs cory cats are also a good choice.

I would use sand as substrate or a very fine gravel. My bolivians prefer plants as cover. If you use rocks or driftwood, be sure and create sight breaks throughout the tank. laying driftwood flat across the substrate works pretty well. Hopefully that will get you started, and maybe Blair or Ruurd will have something to add...

WakinAZ....the bolivians will be fine in high pH and harder water. The strict/high volume water changes the discus will require will also benefit the rams, it certainly helps induce spawning.

goodluck guys :thumb:

Ed


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## curt_914

Well Guys I finnaly did it. I traded in my Irridesent sharks on sat  . Jen wasnt happy with me, but it was better for the fish. So now in my 20 gallon we have 1- gold veil angel, a small black angel, 4 corries, 1 chienese algae eater, and 3 dwarf platties. I am going to be redoing this tank in about 1 year. I got $29 fish credit for them at the store and I got a nice approx 10 lbs chunk of malysain driftwood to replace the grape vine in my 55 set up. I have been a little learry about the grape vine since I started reading about it and since I was soaking it. I will have the aquriaum stuff ordered in the next 2 weeks. so set up will be in the next 3.

Work is now a little rocky for me and I am looking for a new job. I am luckly still employed at the moment so it helps. The rams have been acting a little funny the last couple of days and I am attributeing it to the 10 gal tank they are in, and only being fed once a day. I cant test hardness at the moment and my test kit isnt the best in the world. I did a 50% water change last night and they seemed to be in a beter mood today. I really need to get the gravel out of the tank as it has crushed coral in it but have not been to enthused to change to much in the tank. But the corries arnt doing to well either. I think I may do an emergency substraight change later this week to all purpose sand and keep the current hob filter and a few hand fulls of gravel in some panty hose for the bacteria count to lessen the impact of the change.

I have also been fighting algae in this tank and think the change will be beter all around. Also guys what pellet food do you recomend for the rams? I was thinking Spectrum grow pellets, any thoughts.

Curt


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## Dutch Dude

Good to hear you trade in the in the sharks. Your small 20 gallon tank was way overstocked. In my opinion it still is to small for the angels.

I'm not surprised your cory's and Bolivians don't feel well. Coral does increase the PH, KH and GH so probably the PH is around 8 or even higher. The fish tolerate it short term but I would realy recommend to replace the gravel for some neutral substrate. Small gravel (grain size 0.1 inch) or realy recommendable sand. Poolfiltersand should be save and should be a neutral substrate.

When you change the substrate I suggest to use Blair his strategy. If I'm correct he does a large water change at first, removes the substrate (wait for half a hour or so so the dirt can settle) and do an second large water change to remove all the dirt. After that you can add the new substrate (sand). Make sure the sand is very very very good rinsed!!! It is important to do the first 2 weeks some extra water changes. The change of substrate can couse ammonia spikes!!! I suggest to do day 2, 4, 6, 9 and 13 a wc of abouth 30%. If a spike occurs you need to do a 50% wc!

That's how I would do it. Good luck Curt :thumb:


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## curt_914

Dutch I cant test GH/KH at the moment but water paramaters were as follows last night:
PH:7.2
AM:0
NiteRate:20
Niterite:0

Jen Is working late tonight so I am going to start rinseing the sand tonight. I dont plan on doing a heavly planted tank in the 10 as it will be Quarintien. But I will try to get it done and changed by the end of the week. will take pics and post progress.

Curt


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## Dutch Dude

The nitrate level is not realy a problem but if the KH and GH is high it could increase algae growth. The parameters you mentioned should be fine for Bolivians. A 10 gallon is imo to small for Bolivians and only suitable for grow out of a small number or as a Q tank.

I hope the change of substrate goes well but I suggest to keep monitoring the water parameters frequently after the change. Good luck :thumb:


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## curt_914

I didnt think Nitrate was a biggie. I am only using the 10 gal as a temp tank, Untill the 55 is set up. I am going to be changeing over substraight possiably tonight. starting with rinseing the sand for an hour or so, lol. I will keep as said some gravel for some bios as well as the mature HOB. Talk with you guys tomorrow about how it went.

Curt


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## Supercoley1

Hello all

Haven't been on for a while because I lost my job and also am working on restoring a dining table for my new house (yes Im gonna have to take this tank down to move it. darn)

anyway - The bolivians. The big, colourful male I had looks to me to be a definate female from the vent which although it sort of points is in no way pointed and since she fattened up its now massive!! Her colours are really really good too.

The smaller skinny 'beta' male as we were calling him has unfortunately died probably due to lack of food.

Would a large female be able to dominate a small male in this way? or is it just that this female is still a male just with a vent that looks like a females?

Also the tank is unrecognisable from the last pics you saw. I have been pruning it virtually every week (HO T5 lights seem to be double that of the WPG rule!!! therefore my 1.8WPG is growing as if it were 3-4WPG going by the T12 EPG rule)

I will post some pics later as I have just done a water change after pruning and the water is still 'clearing'.

Hopefully we can sort this sexing out once and for all so I can go and fetch a mate to complete the 'community'.

Andy


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## Dutch Dude

Curt,....the nitrate isn't a biggie but considering the high KH/GH coused by the coral enough to give this problem.



> I have also been fighting algae in this tank and think the change will be better all around.


Andy,.....Female Bolivians can indeed dominate a male! I think the skinny fish was already week before you bought him. Can you post some pics of your fish so we can see the vent of the male / female you are talking abouth? I once had a young fish that was way ahead in development and looked like a male. Blair also thought it was a mail and predicted he would be a wonderful fish. It was the biggest fish of my batch of youngsters but grow out as a female with pail colors. She was easely intimidated so not a fish I like to keep. Sooo,...what I'm trying to say is that we can sex the fish but we can be wrong sometimes. With some of the fish it can be very hard to see and especially fish that are skinny. Absolute prove for a pair is if they have spawned successfully. I realy like to see a pic of the fish Andy.

Ruurd


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## ChrisWalker

Hi all. Wow it seems ages since I last posted here. Approximately 30 pages ago lol. This thread got HUGE!

Anyway, just an update. I've had my Bolivians for over a year now and she still won't spawn with him, lol. Despite his best efforts to impress her. I had some problems with a nasty parasite recently that killed 10 of my fish but the Bolivians are still going strong and i think using Seachem Octozin sorted it out.

Anyway my main question is about peat in the filter, I'm considering adding it to get my PH under 7. It's stable and consistant at 7.2 out of my tap, and hard. What do u guys think?


----------



## rmslover

i currenlty have 14 that i am growing out to eventually spawn in the next 8 months. if i have the patience. i may end up unlaoding them at the auction in may and focus on shell dwellers for awile. i have so many ideas what i would like to do , just not the room in my apartment.

i thin i am going to sell my Peacocks at the january auction although i wanted to hold them for a while.


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## Speed6 Guy

I am just now finding this thread. I spent the last hour reading it. After all that I read I think I have two males. Bummer.

Here is the most active one he is always out and at the front of the tank to try and get me when I walk by.



















And this is the other ram who tends to stay back and only peak at me fom the back.



















But there is a lot of greaet info in this thread that needs to be put into a sticky or somthing.

I will be looking forward to seeing what you think of my rams. I want to breed them but I can't find a female to save my life.

Nate


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## mobie

Hello all, new to bolivians (about 2 months) and already they have picked their territory and laid 
eggs. Guess I'm doing something right. How do I insert pics?

[/img]


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## Supercoley1

Andy


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## Dutch Dude

Chris,.....good to see you back on the BRC! Well this post is indeed growing and growing :lol: Were will it end, haha! About your couple,...hmmm,...so you got a nasty bug in your tank. That's always a bad thing to happen. I hope you get ride of the parasite. About your couple,....is it a couple? Do they spend time together in a certain aria or do they each have a territory and only feed together? Did you tried the feeding regime of Blair to induce spawning? If your fish are from a SE Asian fish farm there is a very big change they won't ever produce fry. Most Asian farm fish (not only Bolivians) are premature by hormones. The side effect of that is that they become infertile. So hopefully you don't have Asian fish. An other reason could be the set up or the fish just don't match and didn't became a couple.

rmslover,.....so you want them to spawn within 5 months and sell the 14 fish in May? Keep in mind that the fry need to be at least 5 months before you can sell them.

Speed6guy,.....Welcome to the BRC. Nice looking fish and the fish on the first pics got some nice trailers! The first fish is most likely a male. The second fish is hard to tell and unfortunately I can't see the vent or the body shape. 
Nate, I hope you found some useful info on here and you soon find some females. I don't know the size of your tank and the other tank inhabitants but maybe there is some room for 2 couples.

Welcome moby! I love to see the pics :thumb:


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## mobie

Lets see if I do this right


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## Dutch Dude

Mobie,....you added a link to an other discussion board and this can't work! You first have to put the pic on imageshack or photobucket and copy that link on here like Andy told you.


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## curt_914

Ok Guys Did the substraight change! Everyone is much happier! Batterys in camm were dead so I will get pics up end of the week.

Curt

Cant wait to place my order now so I can get the 55 up!!!


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## Dutch Dude

Curt,...good to hear everything went well so far,...one advice,....keep monitoring the water right now! I love to see some pics :thumb:


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## curt_914

Ok Guys here are pics from last night. Found a couple batt's.
Guys are hard to get a clear pic of them. all of the rams are now between 1-1.5". Should be moving into the 55 in a couple weeks to a month.


























































Curt


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## rcervel

Hey guys,

First post here, just wanted to introduce myself to the Bolivian Rams Club. I'm not completely new to Bolivian Rams though, I had a pair before, but unwisely wanted to try GBR's. That didn't go so well. Now I'm back to Bolivians. I must say they are very interesting fish.


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## Dutch Dude

Curt,.....the tank has lots of potential but I realy recommend to add more plants. I know finance is a problem so I suggest cheap hardy fast growing plants like Egeria densa and Java Fern. The substrate and the stones and driftwood is looking good dough :thumb:

Rcervel,...welcome to the BRC! Bolivians are indeed realy fun to watch and especially in small groups of 5 or more (depends on tank size). They are not that difficult and quit hardy. Maybe you can tel us a bit more abouth your tank / set up or even add some pics?


----------



## rcervel

Dutch Dude said:


> Rcervel,...welcome to the BRC! Bolivians are indeed realy fun to watch and especially in small groups of 5 or more (depends on tank size). They are not that difficult and quit hardy. Maybe you can tel us a bit more abouth your tank / set up or even add some pics?


I'll try and get some pics up when I'm home. The tank is a 29 gal, south american. Swordtails, Hatchets, Neons, BN Pleco, Cory and Otos oh and 3 Blue Mystery Snails.


----------



## Dutch Dude

Rcervel,....sounds like a nice community tank with the Bolivians as eye catcher. :thumb:


----------



## curt_914

Dutch I know it needs more plants, lol... Would like some more java fern but we will see. Will be tradeing in my angels in a cuople weeks and re doing the 20 gallon. The rams are starting to show there coloration!! I am guessing they are around 5 months old, as well I am having as couple lip locking and pulling each other in the tank. When do rams start pairing off?? 55 is on its way to being set up. Will be buying substraight wensday next week. Will start set up right around x mas!!

Curt


----------



## ChrisWalker

Hi guys. Just thought I'd stop by and add some pics of my current setup.

Ruurd, my "couple" have a very tempremental relationship. They bicker quite a lot, and the girl isn't really bothered, but the male is constantly trying it on lol. They go for weeks where they'll be friendly and swim next to each other all the time, and then weeks where they pretty much avoid each other.

I don't really mind, because I know they're both happy and healthy - would just be nice to see some babies  Some people's breed within a week of getting them. lol.

Oh yeah, I think they're good quality stock too, as I got them from a very reputable shop. A small garden centre on the outskirts of my city, so I think they're from independant breeders so no hormones I don't think.

Anyway, for some reason my water is cloudy at the moment, even after a 50% (60Litres) + water change yesterday, but oh well.

I'm really happy so many people have started loving these fish. When I first got mine, only just over a year ago, it was so hard to find info on them and now...Thanks to all on this thread, particularly Dutch and Blair (I read your article - awesome), excellent stuff.

Anyway, the pics....

My male trying his luck with the female.









Closeup of male.









Closeup of female.









Male.









Female.









Male.









My biggest Cory - Puck, really is getting huge. lol.









Whole tank, here you can the quadruplet Platys, all born in my tank.


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## Supercoley1

I will post some pics later of this guy/gal's home later (9 weeks since the scape was started)

Here are 2 pics I managed to get some pics earlier so that fattened up and coloured up you can help me sex him/her. The initial views (and my opinion) were that I had a male but he was skinny.

5 weeks or so on and I am leaning towards female (unless I have the King Dong of the Ram World. lol)

Here are the piccies:


















Anyone have any ideas? This is the same fish in both pics and he/she attacks any other ram with a vengeance!!!

Thanks in advance
Andy


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## Dutch Dude

Chris,....long time no see! Wonderful tank and gorgeous fish! They look healthy and are nice colored!!! :thumb:

:lol: Well they can indeed have temperament relationships! Like Kim says,....marital problems :lol: A change in water parameter could trigger them to spawn but especially the female does need some protein rich foods to produce eggs. Did you tried the Blair method with the blood worms?

Yes I'm happy to this wonderful fish are finally getting the attention they should get. For some reason people thing they are dull looking Rams and are hard to maintain. I hope this treat wipes all of that and people will appreciate these wonderful nice looking, funny and social fish!

Good to hear you like the article 

About the cloudy water,...to me it looks whitish,...is this correct? If so there is a large change you have bacterial bloom. Lots of people confuse this with algae bloom but that will color the water green. Bacterial bloom is a temporarely phase in new set ups. When you do a water change the water will be les cloudy,...but only for one day or so. The larger the water change the larger the bloom. I once had bacterial bloom and the more I tried to get ride of it the worse it gets. IMO best way the get ride of it is to do more frequent small partial water change (2 times a week 25% each time) and add blackwater extract or peat. Give it some time. Pleas don't use meds or supplements but try to control it the natural way. If it is algae bloom (green water) I also suggest peat or blackwater extract, reduce lighting (small steps) and a very fine filter pad to filter it out of the water. There is an other possibility and thats cloudines becouse of the high amount of CO2. This can be measured but what I see on the pics looks like a bacterial bloom.

Andy,...I'm sorry but I have to mention your Bolivian displays stress spots. Is there any reason for that? I think it is a female.


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## Supercoley1

The problem I have at the moment is that I live in a shared house and there are 4 young children (2 of them mine) that like to play in front of the tank loudly and often doing what children do and dirty the glass with their prodding fingers.

When I first put the rams in the one I still have would charge to the front and stare me out but gradually has got to the point that she goes to the rear of the tank when anyone comes near.

This happens when I get the camera out and of course means that I end up having to chase her up and down to get pics.

At the end of January my family are moving into our own home and I am also putting the tank a little higher up so... less noise. Out of reach of my children (they are only 1 and 2 yrs old) and hopefuly will get her confidence back.

Im glad I judged the female bit right. Why would she have been fighting with the small male? or does it mean the small male was actually a female? There is a different shop near me that has some males with superb colouring, finnage and extensions and they are quite fattened already so I may get her a mate.

I have moved away from EI and onto a lean dosing routine where I only put in the ferts the plants need give or take rather than dumping exces in. It also means I can do 2 small water changes a week rather than the single 50% that EI demands. CO2 is still @30ppm but I have theLily pipe 1/3 above the water so there is plenty of surface movement to bring in the oxygen plus the plants are pearling like mad and producing loads.

Andy


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## Dutch Dude

Andy,.....the fish will get used to the noise. Mine don't bother if I take the stereo loud. Normally Bolivians come and great any one who comes in front of the tank. Of course they hide when the children touch the glass but still this shouldn't be to much of a problem. If Bolivians are skittish and hide a lot this has often to do with feeling insecure. And this has often to do with tank mates (or lack on tank mates like tetras and oto's) or the aqua scape. Could this be the reason for the behaviour of your fish?

Bolivians with long trailers are at least one year old or older. Adult Bolivians have a higher and rounder bodyshape compared to juvenile. So there is a change the Bolivians in the shop are older. If they look healthy (good colors so they probably are) and the price is reasonable you could add a male.

Andy,.....EI,....sorry,...doesn't ring a bell. A water changing regime of 2 times a week 25% sounds fine by me. I would prefer this in stead of the 50% once a week. More frequent smaller water changes would give more stability. I would not recommend larger partial changes as 35% unless there is an emergency like nitrite or ammonia (new set ups).

Do you have a recent pic of the tank,...I'm curious :wink:


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## Supercoley1

Im just waiting for nightfall to complete and then the tripod is coming out.

It maybe that since she chsed the other bolivian to death she is feeling lonely.

Her mates currently are 9 cardinals, 4 pitbulls and 3 Otos in a 33USG

EI is where you put an excess of fertilisers in each day and at the end of the week do a 50% water change to dilute ('reset') the tank.

I am now using a much leaner dosing routine wher I only put the amount the plants should need into the tank therefore no build up and no need to 'reset' plus it means I can do the smaller water changes.

Be back with pics in a couple of hours. you will be surprised by the change (even though it has had many many pruning sessions)

Andy


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## Dutch Dude

Andy,....well I think you could pull of to add 2 males and a female so there will be 2 couples. Loneliness can indeed create skittish behaviour and causing stress and the feeling of insecure.

OK now I know what IE is and to me this doesnÂ´t sound logical. Why creating and overdose on ferts and removing them to give an other overdose. So add less ferst and add only what the plants need sounds reasonable and much cheaper :wink:

I check the pics later on.


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## ChrisWalker

Ruurd, thanks for the reply.

I have tried Blair's feeding scheme, quite a few times but I think she's just still playing hard to get . At Pets at Home they sell these Tropical quintet frozen food packs which are really good, inluding bloodworm, daphnia, redworms (not sure what they are) and a couple of other crustaceans. The bolivians go nuts for them.

My bolivians also seem to love peas, although sometimes they look like they eat them just to stop everyone else getting them lol.

I'll try the water change scheme for the bloom. I think you're right, within half a day of the large water change it was like this.

Andy,

I have the exact same tank as you. Fluval Deep 800. I still have the hood that came with it though. **** lighting on it. 40W max! Like 1.2 Watts per gallon or something. Where did you get your new hood?

About adding more bolivians to it...I'm also considering taking my pair up to 4, however because of the footprint of our tank, (tall rather than long), I think maybe 3 females to 1 male may be better than 2 males.

However, Ruurd has kept these guys in groups so knows more about social behavior.

Ruurd, what are bolivians like in fours? I've seen them in a 3 and it was disasterous, the other female just got thrown about by my pair.

How do females react around each other if they're not in a pair? I shouldn't imagine there are many conflicts but it's good to know. I think 1 male and 3 females could be a nice balance.


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## Supercoley1

Chris. My hood is in the garage and ripped apart. The current hood is one I made with 4 pre cut peices of pine, 3 hines, screws, yacht varnish (interior) and antique pine dye (exterior)

Cost about Â£20.

quite easy really measure the tank. front and back the same length + 5mm space at each end for clearance. side are the side of the tank plus 2 wood thicknesses + 5mm at each end for clearance. This gives you the footprint for the top. Mine is one peice 3./5 of the depth fixed at the back (which I have fixed my lighting into and 2/5 hinged as a flap at the front.)

Do you have a Jackson Shipley near you? I gave them the measurements of my tank footprint (+1cm length and depth) and they did the working out for me and cut the wood. Charged me Â£14.00 total.

Pics of the tank for Ruurd. Sorry for being Arty but I was doing them for my journal on TFF as well.

Front of tank









Arty Farty View of the tank









View through the left hand side of the tank.









The scape is now 12 weeks in and the plants are in the main slow growers with the exception of the 'forest canopy' and therefore the actual scape will take a year or so to develop.

As Chris has said my tank is only 30inches/80cm long as it is a 33USG tall. with this in mind do you still think I could get 2 males and 1 female? I was thinking of restocking my cardinals back up to 15/20 now that I don't have a mesh moss wall (little fish trap) in the tank anymore.

I dont want to overstock too much so would rather have 1 pair of bolivians and a larger shoal of tetras again if possible..

Andy


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## ChrisWalker

Andy. Great pics, your water is crystal clear. What filter do you have? You still using the Fluval 3 that comes with the tank? I am. Good power filter but it rattles a bit.

I might actually consider the hood thing. Do you just fix 3 of those light starters to the top, and have 3 switches? Or is there a more complex way of doing it?

I personally don't believe the stocking of the tetras affects the rams too much. I just think that 2 males might be a bit much, but if you prefer the males over females it's entirely up to you.

I think you're tank is great, and the scattered, natural planting certainly works well for so it oculd be fine.

I'm planning the new layout of my tank for the new year, and if i do get more rams. LOADS of bogwood in mind. Blackwater, dark! lol.


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## Supercoley1

Chris.

I bought the tank second hand and it came with a fluval 3+ and a tronic heater. Can you see them?

Nope.
I am using a Tetratec EX700 (Â£47 from zooplus) which feeds into a Vecton2 200 UV which feeds into a Hydor ETH200 heater (all external.) The in and outflows are glass from Aquatic Magic which is why you cant see them. If you look closely at the top left of the front shot you can see a mass of bubbles which is the lily pipe outflow and the current this produces means there is never any protein film on the top and also pumps oxygen into the water.

This is why you cant see any equipment other than the CO2 glassware and the thermometer inside of the tank.

I am aiming at quite a bushy substrate but the plants are al low light and slow growers so it will be a gradual growth

My lights require no starters. they are sealed Realux 30W T5HO units from Aquaessentials.co.uk and they have the ballast encased within the reflectors 29" long so they fit this tank perfectly. They should last 2 years or so before they need replacing and were Â£30ish each. Each hasits own power cord and switch but I have them on timers so 1 is on for 10 hours and the other comes on for 2 hours in the centre (noon burst)

I was just asking if Ruurd thought that me adding 2 males and 1 female to create 2 pairs would overstock as I will be upping the cardinals soon. I just need to be sure it is female before buying a male really. I want to get it right this time lol.

Although it doesnt really show as the hardscape is meant to be subtle in this scape there is a huge 30cm piece of bogwood which is a cave and ledge diagonally in the right of the tank and the central sticky up bit is a moss, anubia and needle leaf wrapped piece of driftwood. There is also another piece of bogwood that the Java Fern is sitting on in the left rear so all in all a lot of wood (I have 4 pitbull plecs so I need it)


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## Dutch Dude

Chris,....your fish look gorgeous and I realy like the set up! Densely planted and an open space to swim :thumb: So you already feed protein rich foods and sounds like the fish like it very much. Hahaha,...so they play around with the peas :lol: Well,...I think you take very good care for your fish and I realy see no reason not to spawn. Did you tried not feeding them for 2 days and go back on the normal routine?

I hope the problem with the algae bloom will soon be solved! But donÂ´t worry to much abouth it. I have to warn for clogged filters becouse of the huge amount of bacteria so I suggest to check it frequently.

Andy,.....nice tank. Sorry but one thing I realy donÂ´t like,...the white background.

The size of the tank would be big enough to keep 4 Bolivians (the current female plus the 2 male and 1 female so you would have 2 couples). Of course you can put in just one pair of them and I donÂ´t expect troubles in adding a total of 20 cardinals. I do think this would be abouth the limit. You have an over sized canister so that gives you some more space for fish stock. Nitrates will be low and 2 wc each week will keep the tank clean.

If you want to be sure you end up with a pair you could buy 6 of them, and wait until they pair up, select a pair and return the other fish to the lfs.


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## Kjaer

Feeding time:


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## Dutch Dude

nice vid Johan and thanks for sharing :thumb:


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## blairo1

Hey guys and gals. Just stopping in really quickly to say I've got about 100 fry at the moment. They're with the parents in a tank that they will be able to raise them in....

I'll keep you posted!
Blair.


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## justflow1983

Hey blair, ever shipped to ireland? I've been thinking about setting up a tank here and the stock in the store here in dublin _had_ to have been hormoned, they were about .75 inches long and fully colored up.

Unfortunately my rams are back home in the states in the care of my parents.


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## Supercoley1

Ruurd

You have the same opinion as me on the white background. I'm not overly keen on it recently.

It will be in front of a cream wall soon and I am thinking of having no background at all.

I think I will pick up 1 of those big males after the move and see if she can kill him off. lol

Andy


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## curt_914

Never ceases to amaze me... Jen Gets a job we think we are going to get ahead and I get laid off....

I have ordered lights and substraight for the tank and we should have it up by the first of the year. I am now looking for a new job, but will have some time to build my CO2 Reactor and get the tank set up and going.

Curt


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## blairo1

justflow1983
Hey bud I guess I could do, not sure what customs would make of it seeing as I don't have an export license. I'm sure there's a way but it will take a good few months - they are only 1 week of free swimming, ie several months of growth ahead....

Hey Andy, nice tank. Just IMO but I think it will look much nicer when it is denser, at the moment I still see too many individual stems that stand out to me and I don't like that - but this is a gradual process and I'm really glad that you're doing it properly - ie letting it grow in rather than over-planting to create density early on.... I think a large reason so many have problems with plants in aquaria is precisely because of this - they envisage a densely planted tank and so plant it, densely, rather than being able to envisage how much those immature plants will spread and distribute themselves. So, kudos bud. Keep us posted!

Only one thing - white/no background- AK! If anything deep blue fade to dark blue. No background can work but I often found that you will get a refraction of the light somewhere on the back wall and if you're anything like me, that will piss you off to no end! :lol: Just a thought. Of course, no background trumps the photo backgrounds of a Colosseum underwater or something equally disturbing like that.

Johan, nice fish and good to see them interacting well on a social level, they look very healthy! :thumb:

Chris, I'm amazed you still haven't had a spawn from your fish! Have you had any eggs at all?

Curt - dude you're in the USA, you can get jobs there like there's no tomorrow, you should try Cornwall in England - highest unemployment rate, lowest rate of pay. If you need a quick buck why not do some night shifts at a quarry for a month, 14$ an hour, 12 hour days, 5 days a week. Yeah it sucks, but it's a little boost for not a whole lot of work (it is pretty gruelling sometimes).... No qualifications or experience and you can be on the best part of 48K a year, I know it's not that much, but temporarily.... Maybe think about it. It all helps right - I know CEMEX are looking for night shift workers at some quarries in TX, probably the other plants too.

Blair.


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## Kjaer

> Johan, nice fish and good to see them interacting well on a social level, they look very healthy! Thumb


 Thanks! Yes, they were some nice fishes  IÂ´m looking forward to keep bolivians again!


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## edburress

ChrisWalker.... About the spawning, one of my females will not lay eggs without flat stones, I usually use small pieces of slate. She'll usually select pieces 2x2" or 2x3". But she will not spawn anywhere else, might be worth a try to add a few flat stones to your tank to see if you can encourage her to spawn. Your bolivians look really healthy, your male looks a lot like one of mine :thumb:

Blair....get some pictures of your new fry for us! I took motivation from your rotkeil/oak leaf thread and added some leaves to one of my grow-out tanks. I think the bolivian fry enjoy them a good bit.

Ed


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## blairo1

What I've noticed so far which is quite interesting is as follows:

Previous spawns have often turned unsuccessful on account of there being too many predators, or generally too many fish in close proximity (community setting). What I will normally witness is the pair tending to their one group of fry, taking it in turns to "rotate" their position so that the other may feed, defend the outer perimeter of their area etc.

In fact, we probably all see this behaviour, but what I've seen this time - in a setting where the only predators are 3 white-tip tetra's, is something wholly different. Maybe some of you have witnessed it, if you have, I'd love to know.

In continuation - what normally happens in a community setting is that the pair will work together, very well, in defending their fry. However in such a setting they were often overwhelmed with the constant and spread attacks on their young. Now I've always hypothesised that the male is in fact highly intelligent, so much so that you can tell he actually gets frustrated with the female - he noticeably punishes her if she neglects to guard a spot, or if they lose a large amount of fry. At first I thought this was his hyper-territorial attitude driving such behaviour, but now, in a more relaxed setting, I have been able to establish that it is more than that.

He separated the fry at an early stage - the female had watch over the entire group and the male actively chased her away, took about 1/3 of the fry and then continued to ensure that the female did not take them back to the main group - he has been watching that group since day one, the female holding the majority. Don't get the wrong idea, they haven't broken the bond, quite the opposite, this seems to be a tactic. As the female lost a few on the first eve of their freeswimming, I noticed that her group had suddenly become considerably smaller the next day. Upon discovering this, I noticed that the male was surrounded by a mass of wigglers, easily half the group, which he still will not let the female near.

She has lost all of her fry, but he still has all of the fry he took, kept at the furthest possible point away from the white tip tetra's in a mass of driftwood where the female is not allowed near the group. My suspicions were correct - he is a superior parent (sigh, not getting into the m vs f thing here) and she, although very pretty, isn't the brightest fish, certainly not by comparison. I think a lot of his hostility towards her after a failed spawn is due to this.... before I was unsure whether it was him rejecting her and then his hyper-territorial nature taking over. But having seen the "tactic" he has used here I can only believe that he feels irritated at the females poorer parenting capability and really does seem to punish her for a failure.

I thought it fascinating that he seemed to posses the foresight from previous experience, to then separate the group in a seemingly intelligent way and to defend them himself. If he should fail then I imagine he will become quite stressed upon the realisation that he, alone, is no better than the female.

Pictures are impossible, they truly are in the tangle of driftwood where my flash won't penetrate, this is the closest I could get to the fry coming out and the male quickly whizzing into shot to flare at me, collect the escapees and return them to "fort driftwood knox".

You can tell he's feeling the strain:









I will endeavour to get better pics, of the actual group of fry, but it may take a while before they come out, I need to remove the tetra's first.

Blair.


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## justflow1983

Hey Blair, no worries about timing, it may be a few months or not at all before I can set up a new tank. My workplace is currently in the process of deciding whether they would prefer to have me in Bratislava or Dublin, so until thats settled it would be very irresponsible to set up a tank (I'm hoping Bratislava, I'd be designing a building with almost unlimited budget). Too bad though, I plan on doing a planted tank, maybe 80cm long or so, and it will be the first of that sort for me.

The quality of fish here that I've seen here so far really is sub par. Of course, I haven't looked outside of the city center so there's bound to be someone in the 'burbs that has better stock.

Great fish too, the spawning behavior is really interesting, it really takes bi-parental to an almost human level: divorce, custody battles, and all!


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## ChrisWalker

Hi all.

Thanks for the kind words about my rams.

Ed: Thanks for the thought. Although I have a lot of smooth rocks and slate chips etc...I don't actually have just a large flat piece of slate, so i'll give it a go. Cheers.

Blair: It's hearing about this kind of behaviour that makes me want mine to spawn so badly. It's about seeing another side of the rams for me. And I really want to experience it like all of you guys have.

Ruurd: The bacteria bloom is still very much in force, it seems to fluctuate during the day. All the fish seem fine, and I'm trying the water change method, so I'll see what happens. Can't find any peat around these parts for some reason. Don't really know what I'm looking for. Am i looking for a big bag like what you buy garden compost in?

Mikrogeophagus Aquascaping tips:

I've attatched a picture of a deliberately created territory for my rams...I got this arch of bogwood that I'd never put in, and they love it. I've also made a "crater" in the sand. It has some plant shelter from a crypt at the front, and an amazon sword towering above at the back.

They love it. They've been swapping turns to go under the arch and hang out. Though the male has been taking it by force a few times lol. But she gives as good as she gets...

It even resulted in a rare full lip locking earlier. Something I don't see very often. When I have time I'm going to add more wood and make more deliberate territories for them.

I also noticed in the photo is my final otto. I haven't seen him for weeks and thought he was dead, then when I went back to look for him he'd gone again!


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## MandaPanda006

I have a 29g tank set up right now, and I've been following this thread but I can't seem to find an answer on how many bolvian rams I can keep in a 29..I heard about 5 max with a lot of hiding places and good filtration. So how much room does that give me then in my tank to have some tetras/corys? I would like a small school of neon tetras or perhaps danios...what kind of tetras can they go with?? and perhaps a small school of corys..too much? Or is it one or the other with the tetras/corys..


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## Dutch Dude

Wow,...you guys have made quit a lot of posts over here and I have to do some catching up.

Andy,.....the background gives your tank a strange look. When light levels are low and people use dark driftwood a lighter beige or ecru color background can be nice but in a set up like yours is does takes all the attention and ruin the depth. Considering the colors of the plants a very dark background should look much nicer. Possible colors are dark blue or even aubergine but I would realy go for the black. Against the black background the colors of the fish will be much more impressive, the plants look stronger in colors and the wood will still be visible. I agree on Blair that some plants like the stem plants are to far from each other and scattered over a large aria. Those plants will be easy to move when the plants are full grown so for now I would plant those in small bushes. You got some nice pieces of driftwood and those look great. The plants still have to grow out so it will be more densely in the future. maybe to densely but time will tell. Your into aquascaping and for that there are some "rules". One of the famous is the triangle with stones. one stone in the middle and 2 smaller stones on the other corners of the triangle gives the impression the stone in the middle is much larger as he realy is and creates more depth. This kind of "optical tricks" is what a lot of aquascapers use. An other rule is that the eye needs one point of focus to create a relaxing set up. If there are a lot of things that will pay the attention it will make you look from the one end to the other and from object to object. The trick is to get one focus point to let the tank look more balanced. Out of studies people discovered that looking at a square space like a pic or a tank in this case will look deeper if the focus point is at 0,6 from the one corner and 0,4 from the other. So if your tank is 10 inch long your focus point should be at 6 inch from one of the sides. The focus point can be an open aria, a stone (keep the stone triangle in mind) or a large piece of driftwood, but one plant with a different structure or size can do the same thing. If you look at my previous set up of the 90 gallon (my tank profile) you can see that I put a lot of driftwood against the background at 0.6 and put large echinodorus to the left and right. This created lots of depth considering the distance from the driftwood towards the front window was abouth 15 inch. In your tank there is a piece of driftwood at 0.6 from the left corner what could be the focus point. Unfortunately it isn't that large but still can be the focus point. It is covered in plants so in the current set up it just doesn't pay enough attention. I don't want to tell you what to do but I hope you give this a thought.

Ed,....remarkable that one of your females only want to spawn on a piece of slate! Mine did even spawned on a big brought leave of an echinodorus.

Blair,....thanks for the nice pics! Interesting you describe abouth the parental behaviour of your fish. I can agree with the fact that some of the parents split up a second group or take over brood care in case of a partner not doing her or his job properly. In some cases one of the parents get chased away becouse of her or his poor skills. In your case the female isn't the best parent and your male takes over and probably select the healthiest fish (becouse he can't take care for all of them). In other cases the female chase away the male becouse he is eating it's own fry (would there be a reason for that?). Nice discussion!

Chris,....hmmm,....the bacterial bloom can take a while but luckily it isn't as bad as some other cycling troubles like cyanobacteria. I also discovered that the water became more whitish during light periods. I tried to decrease the light quantity and time but this only made it worse for the plants. The poor growth and even dieing plants coused even more troubles. You could filter over a very fine filter pad (Dennerle got some great stuff) but this won't make the water clear,...just a bit les cloudy. The filterpad will clog fast so you have to check it every day. It will take some time before the amount of bacteria suitable. For some reason they do grow very fast and one of the reasons can be a source of food. In time the food will be eaten and there will be a lack on food. Bacteria will die off and stabilize on a amount that fits with the amount of food (waste). In case you got a film on the surface,.....remove it every day and make sure it is open so gasses can be exchanged at the surface.

About the peat,...I would not use the garden type of peat but only use special aquarium peat. The last decade it became rare over here and as far as I know peat is only collected on some parts in Germany and some parts in eastern Europe. In stead of the peat you can also use peat extract also labeled black water extract. Tetra has some and Dennerle also got some. Those of dennerle is transparent and in fact Oak root extract. I would recommend the type that colors the water yellow like the tetra. You have to dose is a few times a week wile real peat lost for a long long time. The peat or peat extract can even trigger your fish to spawn.

In the last pic I noticed a more greenish color of the water. This can be of reflections of the light on leaves but it can be also becouse of algae bloom. If you put the water in a white bucket,...is it still white or is it green? If it is green you got an algae bloom in stead of a bacterial bloom. I still recommend the above but in addition you should check on the lighting (color, intensity and time period).

Welcome Mandapanda,.....Bolivians needs a territory = part of the floorspace. The footprint is the main thing to determine the quantity of Bolivians. Corydoras is also a specie that lives on the bottom of the tank. There have to be space for all of the fish. One single Bolivian needs a territory of at least 10 inch x 10 inch. In a tank with a footprint of 16 inch x 32 inch you can put in 5 of them. This can only work if the tank is heavily planted and does have enough teritorial markers like driftwood plants and stones. Territorial markers are changes in the aria that fish use as beacons for their territory. So in a tank with only a few beacons the fish will have larger territories. The number of 5 should be the maximum for your tank! So I would do a small step back and go for 2 couple. If you put in 2 couples there won't be much space left for corydoras so I strongly suggest not to put them in. A good alternative are Otocynclus. They are dwarfs and are excellent cleaners and real fun to watch. If you go for one couple you could put in some Corydoras. Because of the small size of the tank you could consider some dwarfs like the Corydoras Hastatus. So with the floor space stocked you still have some room in the higher regions of the tank. You can put in a nice school of tetras. Bolivians are very peaceful so you can even put in the smallest species. I even keep cherry shrimp with my Bolivians. The shrimp live in the higher part of the tank becouse the Bolivians spend hardly time close to the surface.

Soooo,.....resume

set up 1 
- 2 male and 2 female Bolivian
- 5 Otocynclus
- 8 tetras like rummy nose ....*or* small shrimp like Christal red or Chery or bee shrimp.

Set up 2
- 1 male and 1 female Bolivian
- 8 corydoras hastatus
- 12 small tetras like neons

This are just some idea's. I hope this was the kind of info you are looking for.


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## MandaPanda006

Thank you so much for explainging that me me, I greatly apprecitaed the set up ideas. I like the first setup with 2 male, 2 female etc.) Now all I need to do is find some one local who sells them!! :lol:


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## Dutch Dude

Fish from a local breeder would be great! I suggest to keep away from the SA Asian fish if you plan on breed them. I hope you find some nice youngsters. One suggestion,.....if you would buy 8 of them and wait until they pair up, you can select 2 pairs and take the remaining 4 fish back to the lfs. About 8 fish in your tank is quit a lot but considering youngsters between the 1 and 2 inch isn't a problem.


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## DarkMatter

I'd like to set up my 29 with these; how many could fit?


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## justflow1983

See MandaPanda006Â´s question


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## Geejo4

Wow. I also have a 29 gallon tank and I am planning on getting some Bolivians. I also have tetras and oto's too! haha



Dutch Dude said:


> One suggestion,.....if you would buy 8 of them and wait until they pair up, you can select 2 pairs and take the remaining 4 fish back to the lfs.


If you bring the 4 remaining fish back to the pet store, would the pet store refund you or would you have lost the price of the four fish? Not too many lfs' have bolivians so most likely I would have to go to Petsmart, which actually has a pretty good selection around here.

Thanks!


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## DeadFishFloating

Geejo4 said:


> If you bring the 4 remaining fish back to the pet store, would the pet store refund you or would you have lost the price of the four fish? Not too many lfs' have bolivians so most likely I would have to go to Petsmart, which actually has a pretty good selection around here.
> 
> Thanks!


My LFS here will either offer 50% of thier value in store credit. You are returning these fish some months after you first bought them in most cases. Or they offer your initial outlay in other fish, usually the option I take.

If you are returning fish in good condition a day or two after you first bought them, usually you'll be offered thier value in other fish.

Talk to your LFS and see what deal you can arrange with them.


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## blairo1

Geejo4 said:


> If you bring the 4 remaining fish back to the pet store, would the pet store refund you or would you have lost the price of the four fish? Not too many lfs' have bolivians so most likely I would have to go to Petsmart, which actually has a pretty good selection around here.
> 
> Thanks!


What I do is explain exactly what it is that I am doing - that I don't intend to keep any that don't pair up and that I will be aiming for either one or two pairs (for example) in total. I then explain to them my maintenance regime, the water parameters I keep them in, how I acclimate them etc. On top of that I give them an idea of the sort of tanks I keep, all of this is so that they are aware of your ability and dedication, you don't want to sound like you're boasting, rather sharing information, or they'll switch off. This is essentially so that they know the fish will be well cared for during that month or two when you will have them. I also explain that they will be larger, incredibly healthy and showing intense (but "natural") colouration, that they will have an easier time selling them and that they will be at sexual maturity - perfect for a hobbyist wants to start breeding them. I keep them updated as to how they're doing, take in photo's of mine to show the development etc. So far they've taken them back and I get 100% back either in supplies/credit or cash, but don't expect cash unless you really know the people (chains are pretty much a no-no on handing out cash, if you get on well with a manager, for example, you can get better than 1/3 - 1/2 the price you paid, you just need to have banter with them, work them out.)

I wouldn't unload all of it in one go on the day, rather I focus on one or two particular individuals who I know have the power to make such decisions and I then visit the store fairly regularly to make small purchases and generally chat - have a presence, be known. After a month of this I usually just ask outright "so, what can you work out for me today then bud....." 

If they look like they're not too sure then I go to my next step which is - I understand that they do not want to have to adjust the till/mess around with that, so how about they trade either some food/equipment (algae scraper pads are always useful)/fish of the same value... They usually go for that one readily, even the chains, but it's better if you can get money or at least store credit slips (you're only going to spend it there again sometime soon.)


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## Geejo4

Thanks *DeadFishFloating* and *blairo1*. I was just unsure on that. Now I have to go and get some of those Bolivians!


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## edburress

Blair....how are the fry doing?


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## andrew__

Been a while since I've last stopped by here, looks like I've missed a few pages...

Anyway, I've decided (today) that I'm selling my angels and adding 3 more rams (1m2f to bring myself up to 2m3f unless you can suggest a better ratio/number for a 75). That will leave my tank with:

5 Bolivian Rams
10 Lemon Tetras
6? Emperor Tetras
5 Hengel's Rasboras
4 Corys
3 Ottos
3 BN Plecos

Planning on selling my lemon tetras and adding more emperors (My males have been looking absolutely amazing recently and a local store has some relatively cheap). Undecided about the Rasboras, either going to sell them or buy more. I figure that since all my plants are from Asia it shouldn't matter so much that my fish aren't all from SA :wink:

Anyway, I am coming to the BRC asking for help deciding on a fish to add to this mix because I need something that is compatible with bolivians.

But not so easy as that! I also need something that is not going to be able to eat my rasboras, will not destroy my plants cleaning them up for spawning like my angels did, will not dig up my plants, will not harass my rams, will occupy the upper reaches of my tank and generally just be a good tankmate for all involved.

Anyone keep Festivums with their Rams? They sound like they fit this bill - upper levels, peaceful...


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## Dutch Dude

Heeey Andrew,....yeeeeh you missed a few pages :lol:

WOW,...eeeeeh,...quit some demanding on the tank mate, hahaha! Well the Festivums are the only fish I can think of! I think it could work. Bolivians handle them selves well against larger tank inhabitants and Festivums are described to be peaceful fish. I never kept them so if you want to be sure I would put on a new treat asking for compatibility for festivum. If the Bolivians can handle the angels they probably also handle the Festivum.


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## andrew__

ya, I think I might have to do that. There are a few other nice slightly larger fish I'm looking at, but few that are so specifically interested in the top section of the tank... And I really want my rams to be the focus of the tank as well.


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## edburress

Just wanted to share a video of some bolivian fry, please excuse the poor quality and my poor commentating.

http://s191.photobucket.com/albums/z3/e ... ids005.flv

Ed


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## Dutch Dude

Looks good Ed :thumb: They seem to be healthy well developed fry and it can't be long before they defelop some red in their fins. Oooh and,...nothing wrong with the comment or the quality bud! Thanks for sharing


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## edburress

Ruurd....They do have a good bit of red in their fins that the video doesn't show. Too bad they won't stay still long enough to take pictures :lol: Do you have pictures of your new setup for your bolivans? I would love to see some.

Ed


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## Dutch Dude

Sometimes it is hard to capture colors right on film or pictures so I missed them. Second thing would be some blue colors in the pelvic fins. Hahaha,...yeh those youngsters are quit active don't they.

I have taken a new pic of the set up. I made a fancy DIY background but it is hardly visible and covered in plants as you can see and the driftwood is hardly visible :lol: Dimensions are 40 inch long, 16 inch wide and 20 inch high minus filter compartment of 8 inch x 6 inch x 20 inch.
Inhabitants are 3 male and 4 female Bolivians, 8 Oto's and abouth 150 cherry shrimp and still growing in number. Some plants still have to grow and some plants realy need to be pruned :wink: I'll take some close up pics when I have done that


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## DeadFishFloating

Looking good *edburress*. Are you planning to keep any, or sell them all off?

Ruurd, another awesome setup. Love the size of those echinodrus.


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## Dutch Dude

Thanks Peter. Those are Echinodorus bleheri and they are close to the maximum height of 60 cm. I'm convinced they will reach that in a couple of months. I have to say I use CO2 and additional iron ferts and a heavy clay based plant substrate underneath the sand. I got the same plants in my Guianacara tank in small pond baskets without CO2 and the ferts and they are only 35 cm or so.


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## Dutch Dude

I did some quick pruning this afternoon and here some additional pics.

Complete tank shot,....notice the stone on the middle of the background. I made it hollow, filled it with plant substrate and put some Echinodorus tenellus in it. The tenellus is crowded with pregnant shrimps.










This shot is of the right corner. Sorry for the bad quality.










This is the left corner.










And finally the center


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## Kjaer

Looks very nice Ruurd :thumb: How did you build the background? Styrofoam?


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## Dutch Dude

Thanks Johan. Yes I made the background out of styrofoam just like most on the DIY section do. I covered and at the same time painted it with a special thixotrope epoxy paint. This stuff is after a week curing absolutely save for fish and is quit easy to clean and strong to! Right after the painting I sprinkle some sand in it to take a way the shining and let it look more natural. Right now it is almost completely covered by the plants :lol: This is how it looked like 6 weeks ago and you can see a bit more of the bg.


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## Kjaer

How big is the tank? Are the bolivians the only fishes?


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## blairo1

Yikes I've missed loads, I'm travelling a lot these days so hard to get "connected"...

Ed, looking good bud. Slooooow growers eh, :lol:, it's what makes them special.

Ruurd! Awesome, Nice to see you have been able to focus some energy on your tank and get that Dutch Garden going again. Johan, I imagine that is one of Ruurd's 90 gallons. Good to be home.


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## Dutch Dude

Hahaha,...no in fact it is a 50 gallon Blair / Johan. I think the garden thing let it look larger than it realy is. So when the plants grow to big you can help me a hand Blair with the chain saw? :lol: Blair,...good to hear from you again and I hope the traveling thing will finish quickly so you can spend more time with your Cat and on the board off course :wink:


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## edburress

Ruurd....beautiful tank, as always :thumb:

Blair....thanks and yes they are slow growing!

DeadFishFloating....I am going to keep a small group of 6. For several months I was planning on a tank for Guianacara but I believe I will setup the tank for the bolivian fry instead.

Ed


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## ChrisWalker

Hi guys.

Ruurd, you're tank looks wonderful. It looks so incredibly clean, and does indeed look bigger than it's size.

The algae bloom cleared up. Just got up one morning and it was gone, however I did resort to chemicals, but they got the job done.

New Rams! - Yep, as I had been planning for a long time, I finally decided it was the right time to get 2 more rams. Male and female. Absolutely tiny, smaller than any i've seen in a shop before. They're from the same place I got my older pair from so they're good stock.

They're really perky and have fit right in. They need feeding up a lot, cus they're quite thin. They're on double bloodworm for a while. 

It's quite surreal after seeing only 2 rams for so long. The behaviour is amusing to watch, something I've been missing out on for a long time. The 4 rams are always kind of close to each other, but they have little squabbles between the 4 of them.

I'm happy though as they're doesn't seem to be any actual aggression, the larger 2 have just accepted them.

Here are some pics, the water is slightly hazy as I did a tank re-arrange a couple of days ago in prep for news rams, you know to start afresh with territories.

Check out how small they are! They're about 1 and a half inches from head to tail...Any guesses as to how old they are?

Cheers guys. *I love these fish!*

Tank shot. (hazy water!)









Family shot!









The young male.









Another family shot.









Young female next to my biggest Cory - Puck.









Aww. Family fun.


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## edburress

ChrisWalker....the tank and the new bolivians look good. Get them fattened up :thumb:

Ed


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## Dutch Dude

Thanks for your nice comment guys.

Ed,...So you won't go for the Guianacara. They are just as mutch fun as the Bolivians so I hope you know what you will mis :wink: So you will set it up with 6 of your own youngsters (Bolivians) right? That's basically the same I did. I was planing on 2 male and 4 female and 1 of the males I just could not let go so I ended up with 3 males and 4 females. No teritorial issues but as you can see there are a lot of small and medium sized teritorial markers. Some small and mid size stones, lots of small pieces of driftwood. Most of them are covered by the plants so hard to detect on the pics. I have had lots of spawning but unfortunately non of them were fertile and the eggs fungus after 2 day's. For some reason the youngsters can't get it right. Maibe some of you have a clue why they don't succeed in fertilizing? PH=6.7 KH=3 conductivity is 360.

Chris,..... :thumb: wanderfull tank and set up and congrats with the 4 youngsters. They are skinny and stressed but this will change when they are settled and get some extra attention on feeding. So you finally get ride of the bacterial / algae bloom. Witch one was it? The first pics you added up hear it looked white and the last pics it looked green. Green is algae and white is bacterial bloom. Algae bloom can occur if there is a lot of nitrate and or phosphates in the water in combination with strong lights with a spike in the blue part. How long ago you added the meds? If the meds did their job and the circumstances aren't changed it can come back again. I realy hope you permanently get ride of it!

So the youngsters and the 2 adults get along well. They will be quarreling a lot for the first couple of weeks and when they settled peace comes back. They will quarrel every once in a while and this is part of their social behaviour. In a group they are so mutch more fun compared to a couple. Besides that I'm convinced that "aggression" (were some people talk abouth) doesn't occur when they are kept in small groups in the right circumstances of course.


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## ChrisWalker

Ruurd, I think the reason it looked white to begin with was due to some setting on the digital camera. You know different colour setups depending on lighting conditions etc. But the water was definately green. It's been over since just after Christmas. And it's not showing any signs of coming back.

I think it was triggered by those meds I used a couple of months back for internal bacteria. Octozin?

My water usually has a slight haze to it as I dose Flourish Excel which seems to have the cloudiness effect for a day or so.

I was quite suprised rreally by the way the 2 small new rams have been accepted by the 2 big ones. It also seems to have made the bigger ones colour up even more than before. My large female at the moment is looking stunning. In recent months she's developed a lot more of a "shiny" body than my male for some reason. She almost looks like she's made of a different type of scales. But she looks great. They all seem happy, and the 2 newbies are so excitable lol.

This must be what you guys go through every time you raise young bolivians. I still hope to see it one day lol.

Cheers.


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## mdog

A quick question on coloration.... In the pictures posted by Chris Walker there is a pic "Another family shot" where the rams are quite colorful. In the pic "Young female next to cory" the ram is mostly gray. That is how my two rams look - mostly gray. Is this just a young fish compared to a mature fish coloration? Thanks.


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## edburress

mdog....the grayish fish, with the black stress spots are new additions. They are stressed and slightly under weight from the LFS. Unfortunately, this is fairly normal for young bolivians from LFS. The larger ones, are healthy adults, and that is why they show good coloration.

The gray coloration is not particularly the color of younger fish, but stress coloration. This can be from being a sub-dominant fish, or from being moved recently, from being in poor conditions, or simply from being frightened.

Fish from asian farms are common in LFS, they are sometimes sterile and not as attractive. But under good conditions, they will usually color up nicely also.

It is possible your fish are just very young, or you have 2 males or 2 females, so they are not showing their color. What is your tank size and what other tankmates? Could you add pictures of your rams?

Ed


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## Dutch Dude

Chris,....I know the problem with the adjustments from the digital cams. This makes it so hard to take pics with the natural colors. I never heard of Octozin so I googled and came up with the next line


> OCTOZIN is harmless to invertebrates and algae when used as directed.


Yeeeeh,....it can benefit algae :wink: But seriously,.....it could have been the case. Luckely the problem is solved and I don't think it will come back,....it already should have been there.

I don't know Flourish Excel and I would be bothered with a cloudy tank. I use Dennerle V30 and the stuff is great. Nice green leaves and it doesn't contain phosphate (algae love those) or nitrate so save to algae growth. This is a complete liquid fertilizer. Dennerle should be available over there.

I'm not surprised the 2 larger Bolivians except the youngsters easely. In fact there is a big change they will act more like parents. Bolivians feel more secure in small groups and this is probably visible in their colors to.

Mdog,....young Bolivians do have a silver body color and this will change later on. The first colors are the red in the fins and the blue in the pelvic fins is the next. Later on they defelop the blue dots in the fins and the blueish lines on the body and the yellow to orange bellies. The youngster of Chris does show a lot of stress marks. Those are the black dots all over. In Chris his case this is normal becouse they are new introduced to the tank. Do your fish show those black dots? I did write this and went on with Ed his comments,.....well,...we agree, haha!


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## mdog

Thanks for the replies guys. The tank is a 29 gallon with 3 rams, 4 tetras (pristella and serpae) and 2 small cory cats. There are a good amount of live plants, driftwood, rocks and a fine gravel substrate. We have not had good success with the bolivian rams. It has gone like this...Put in 3 rams and after a week or so one starts to sulk, stops eating and eventually dies. Then this happens to one more and we are left with one. I started again and now one is in a hospital tank being treated with Clout and one in the main tank, while still very active is starting to mouth the food in a curious way. I know this usually leads to trouble. The tank has been up for around 6 months, we do weekly water changes of about 20 - 30% and all other fish have always been fine. I think there are plenty of territories set up.
As to color, I do see some black spots. Interestingly, the one with the most coloration (yellow, and some red on the fins) is the sickest. I've been through these problems (parasite,bloat?) with Africans with moderate success curing. Any help out there? Thanks.


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## Dutch Dude

The tanksize is OK for a couple and if it is densely planted with loads of teritorial markers you could even pull off with 2 couples,....but this also depends on filtration and footprint of the tank. You don't have a lot of tankmates and those you mentioned would be fine. The tank is planted and gets a weekly wc of 30%. Nothing wrong with that so this isn't the reason for the bad shape of your Bolivians. What you describe sounds like an internal illness. Probably they were already in a bad shape when you bought them. What to do? Sorry, I got know idea! I think it would be wise to put it on the illness board. Those guys can help you out with a possible diagnose and or treatment with meds available over there. Important things to know are,....how is their overall appearance, do they eat, do they hide or hang in the tank and very important,....how does their poo look like?

I hope you can save the fish!


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## Supercoley1

Hello all.

I have moved into my new house and while I had the fish out of the tank I rescaped.

Today I bought what I think is definately a male (has long extended tail rays and an extended dorsal.) Hes a bit thin and stressed out as new arrivals always are so is hard to see the vent. It doesn't help that the 'recently confirmed' female wont leave him alone and is chasing him all over trying to nip him.

Hopefully they'll settle down in a day or 2.

I will post pics up later today or tomorrow of tank and new arrival.

*Chris* - its funny you should mention about excel clouding the water up. I seem to recollect someone either on UKAPS or TFF saying this over the last couple of weeks. Most of us who also use excel (but only in cases of bad algae) are quite puzzled by this.

I myself used it at double dosage after going on hols in september and coming back to an algae fest but didn't experience any cloudiness.

Andy


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## curt_914

Hey guys Its been a couple weeks since I last posted and I figured I would jump on and give you an Update!

Still havent set up the 55 waiting on $$$ to get substraight and lights. Plus I need tops so the cats dont go swimming! Also going to get my 20 cleaned up and set up as another ram tank.

I do Have a breading Pair!!! Last week I had 2 guarding a rock with eggs on it! They were there for 3 days but unfortunitly none survived. I do have 1 digging pits in the corner by the rock though so possiably another clutch in a couple weeks. I still think they are a bit young for breading not even a full year yet. I am guessing age is around 6-8 months. I hope to have another job in the next couple weeks so I can get all this stuff set up. Take care will post pics when I can.

Curt


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## Dave in the basement

Hello all,

Instead of posting a new thread, I thought I would sneak these questions in here. I am hoping to soon join the BRC myself. 

1. What kinds of fish do you keep Bolivian Rams with?
2. Would Swordtails and Angels be suitable roommates for them in a 55?
3. Did they breed for you? (I donâ€™t want to have to find homes for jillions of baby Rams. Of course I havenâ€™t ever had anything successfully spawn in any of my tanks, but that is beside the point.)
4. Are caves a necessity, or would cover in the form of plants work?
5. Are they difficult to find, or are do they appear in most LFSs? I canâ€™t remember seeing any locally (northern Indiana), but I havenâ€™t been readily looking for them, either.

As you may have inferred, I am kicking around the idea of adding some spunky Rams to my 55 (which I am now in possession of!).

If you'd rather I create a new topic for these questions, I'll be happy to do so. As always, thanks for linking me to answers or taking the time to reply. I appreciate it!

Dave


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## ChrisWalker

Hey guys......Algae Bloom is back! :zz:

Got a few questions for all of you with spawning experience.

Firstly, it looks like my female is FINALLY ready to spawn. Since sunday the 2 older rams have been digging a pit at the front corner of the tank and chasing everything away from there.

There are a number of things that may have triggered it.

1. Addition of the young rams = competition
2. Finally got the water PH to 6.6 from 7-7.2 due to adding more bogwood.
3. Due to the new additions, only been feeding Bloodworm for a week (as Blair suggested).

Anyway, just wondering if it's normal for them to fight when getting ready to spawn. They've been digging and cleaning rocks for 3 days now, but today they've been fighting pretty brutally, and then going back to it.

They lip locked once for over 5 minutes, it looked like they were pushing each other, but matching each other's strength.

This is fine, but then my female lip locked with the males gills under his "chin" area, it didn't look pretty and now he looks like he has a little damage under there. What's going on?

Also how long should I expect this to go on before they actually spawn?

Cheers, some pics 

The female and her first pit, they've now moved further toward the back.









The not so happy couple!









During one of they're nasty fights.


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## ChrisWalker

Dave in the basement said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Instead of posting a new thread, I thought I would sneak these questions in here. I am hoping to soon join the BRC myself.
> 
> 1. What kinds of fish do you keep Bolivian Rams with?
> 2. Would Swordtails and Angels be suitable roommates for them in a 55?
> 3. Did they breed for you? (I donâ€™t want to have to find homes for jillions of baby Rams. Of course I havenâ€™t ever had anything successfully spawn in any of my tanks, but that is beside the point.)
> 4. Are caves a necessity, or would cover in the form of plants work?
> 5. Are they difficult to find, or are do they appear in most LFSs? I canâ€™t remember seeing any locally (northern Indiana), but I havenâ€™t been readily looking for them, either.
> 
> As you may have inferred, I am kicking around the idea of adding some spunky Rams to my 55 (which I am now in possession of!).
> 
> If you'd rather I create a new topic for these questions, I'll be happy to do so. As always, thanks for linking me to answers or taking the time to reply. I appreciate it!
> 
> Dave


Hi Dave, welcome.

I can get started on a couple of these based on my personal experience.

1. I keep my bolivian rams with a number of different spieces. I keep them with Harelquin rasboras, cherry barbs, guppies, platies, mollies and cories.

I recommend that they're kept with fish that live in similar conditions to them. ie:- PH below around or below 7, preferrably a black water environment, with soft water.

2. The swordtails like most of the common livebearers prefer harder water and higher PH than rams, but livebearers are pretty adaptable IME.

3. A lot of the guys here have had quite easy and frequent spawning experiences. I've had one pair of rams for almost 14 months and only now after adding 2 more are they looking like they're gonna spawn.

4. Caves aren't necessary IMO. When I've tried to have caes the rams simply don't use them. They don't seem shy enough to need them. I'd say they prefer dense plants and lots of bogwood. Mine like to swim under archways of plants and wood.

5. In England they're common. Even Pets at Home ( a big chain store in england ) stocks them so you shouldn't have too much trouble.

I hope this goes someway to helping you out. I'm sure some of the other guys will chip in with their own experiences.

You should check out the rest of the thread too, it really is a great resource.


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## JenTN

Sorry, I posted this in the wrong thread a few minutes ago 

Hello! I don't have any rams yet but plan to. I currently have (in a planted 55) white cloud minnows, black skirt tetras, and harlequin rasboras. I plan to add 4 rams, a couple of rainbowfish, otto cats, cory cats, and cardinal tetras (my lfs lady and I came up with this, and did the math on inches/gallons, etc.) Do you guys think this will be a good group? I plan on adding the rams last, because I know they require very little nitrites and I want to make sure those are under control before adding them.

The lady at my LFS says she has kept rams for a long time and they are some of her favorite fish!


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## Kjaer

> I recommend that they're kept with fish that live in similar conditions to them. ie:- PH below around or below 7, preferrably a black water environment, with soft water.


 Why blackwater? What I know are bolivians not a blackwater species :-?


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## Supercoley1

Just a note if it doesn't get deleted. If people do buy fish from 'a chain store' and are worried then I have 5 spare small bottles (30ml = about 3 courses) of Sterazin (Kills parasites, flukes etc) which I can send out.

I always use it (15 day doses) when I buy new fish just in case.

All I would want is Â£1 + postage covered.

Andy


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## ChrisWalker

Kjaer said:


> I recommend that they're kept with fish that live in similar conditions to them. ie:- PH below around or below 7, preferrably a black water environment, with soft water.
> 
> 
> 
> Why blackwater? What I know are bolivians not a blackwater species :-?
Click to expand...

Apologies, I just assumed with where they come from and the PH they prefer it would be. My mistake.


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## edburress

*JenTN*....that plan and stock list sounds fine to me. If the tank is newly setup make sure your tank is fully cycled, nitrites should be zero and there should be some nitrates before I would add the bolivians. If you have more specific questions, don't hesitate to ask. Goodluck :thumb:

*Dave in the basement*....Feel free to keep posting your questions in this thread. Chris got you started with your questions. I keep Gold Tetra and Rummynose Tetra with my bolivian rams. They do not need caves, and mine do prefer plants as shelter. Mine do breed regularly, but most bolvians are poor parents, so you probably won't have to worry about excess fry. IMO a neutral pH is best, although they are not picky and will do fine with a wide range of parameters. There natural habitat has pH between 7.4-7.6.

*ChrisWalker*....from your pictures, they certainly look like they are preparing to spawn. My bolivians will also bicker a good bit when courting, which sometimes includes liplocking. IME the courting process can last between 2-6 days and encompasses displaying, bickering, digging and cleaning stones, mostly by the male. IME when the female begins displaying and cleaning off a stone, spawning is very near. I'd keep an eye on the males injury, I have never seen biting of the gill area.

*Ruurd*....yes I will keep the bolivian fry instead of getting the Guianacara, but I will get them one day I am sure of it :wink:

Ed


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## Supercoley1

That last post causes me to give a huge sigh of releif.

I bought a male (thin and small of course as they always seem to be when newly bought) 3 days ago. He is in with the female that I bought in October and who seems to be a man hater. lol. She has harried her ex partner who came at the same time as her to death by starvation.

She seemed to be trying the same with this male but he is a courageous fellow and sneaks around the back of the tank darting out occasionally to steal a bloodworm before being chased to the back again. lol

She has been snapping and nipping at him continuously since he arrived and I feared the worst although her chest (and his) are a very intense yellow, and her vent big as it was is now even bigger. This of course left me in a 'Is this normal behaviour or am I going to be fishing out another dead male in a few days' situation.

Hopefully it is as you have said and this is the pre-spawning period as I also notice that there is a definate pit in the substrate in one corner, just where they hover and fight. This is also a little annoying as this corner was elevated for the effect of my aquascape. Oh well I suppose it will have to stay as it is now and I shall have to observe them closely.

Andy


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## edburress

Andy,

Your female could be ready to spawn and the new male doesn't have that on his mind yet. I would make sure he has plenty of shelter. If his chest and abdomen are bright yellow, he is probably fine. If the male is underweight it is very important that he is able to eat and has shelter and sight breaks. Keep a close eye on him, healthy females can be feisty if they are ready to spawn.

When two established fish lip lock during courting they are testing each others strength. It's a little different when one of the fish is new to the setup. She is probably ready to spawn, but simply chasing him around to establish her dominance. If you can help him get settled in, they should be fine.

Ed


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## Supercoley1

Compared to the male that she starved to death he is a strong brave little man.

After 4 days he only has 1 extended ray but she darts at him and he moves out of the way and the swims back beside her.

He is very yellow but very ovious to the eye he is thin in that his belly goes up instead of being a rounded shape.

He is stealing food though and sems to be reasonably happy although he does still show stress spots.

Fingers crossed

Andy


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## Dutch Dude

Curt,....Bolivians start to breed at the age of 8 months. They once spawned and will spawn again. I guess it will take some time before they get it right and I deal with the same issue right now. Mine already have had lots of spawns but non of them were fertile and the eggs fungus after 2 day's.

Dave,.....
1) Bolivians are a perfect community fish. You can keep them with small tetras, pleco's, corydoras, Gouramis, and so on. They are brave little fish and aren't fright of larger fish. So you can keep them with angels to.
2) Yes they are!
3) Yes they breed for me. The parent's have found a new home and I selected some nice youngsters. They did have some spawns but unfortunately non of them were fertile. This will take some time.
4) no they aren't cave breeders. They do need a lot of teritorial markers like small stones, driftwood and lots of plants.
5) sometimes they are good available and sometimes badly. Be carefull with selecting the fish. Avoid SE Asia fish becouse they are often in a bad shape, some deformities and hormone threatened. Fish from a local breeder are the best choice.

Chris,....hmmmm,...I didn't thought it would be back after 4 weeks or so! I would have expected this before. Well it is quit obvious that the couse is in the balance of the tank. Most likely it does have something to do with the color of the tubelights, the light quantity, the lighting period and the water chemistry. Can you tell us a bit more like the PH, KH, GH, NO2 and NO3. Times the tubelights are on, color or type of the tubelights and how many Watt they are? I'm sure your problem can be taken care of by making some small adjustments. If you like your free to PM me.

Couples can quarrel quit a lot especially if one of them things the other fish does do a lousy job. I guess the female made a mistake by grabbing the male at his gills. She could not let go becouse she wanted to let him know SHE was in charge. I would not be woried abouth it. In most cases they spawn 2 to 4 weeks later but,....you never know. Sometimes it takes ages and sometimes they spawn in a couple of day's. All depends on the couple and when they think it is time.

JenT,....Rams or Bolivians? Bolivians won't be an issue and the list sounds just fine.

Ed,....Bolivians are great fish but Ed,.....those Guianacara are some fun fish to! Only one possibility,....a new tank :wink:


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## ChrisWalker

Dutch Dude said:


> Chris,....hmmmm,...I didn't thought it would be back after 4 weeks or so! I would have expected this before. Well it is quit obvious that the couse is in the balance of the tank. Most likely it does have something to do with the color of the tubelights, the light quantity, the lighting period and the water chemistry. Can you tell us a bit more like the PH, KH, GH, NO2 and NO3. Times the tubelights are on, color or type of the tubelights and how many Watt they are? I'm sure your problem can be taken care of by making some small adjustments. If you like your free to PM me.
> 
> Couples can quarrel quit a lot especially if one of them things the other fish does do a lousy job. I guess the female made a mistake by grabbing the male at his gills. She could not let go becouse she wanted to let him know SHE was in charge. I would not be woried abouth it. In most cases they spawn 2 to 4 weeks later but,....you never know. Sometimes it takes ages and sometimes they spawn in a couple of day's. All depends on the couple and when they think it is time.


Ruurd...It's wierd that's it's back. I have no idea what's causing it as the tank has been set up well over a year ad has always been stable.

Here are total specs that I know. (Water tested just before writing this post using API test kit)

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: Somewhere between 0 and 5.
PH: 6.6
KH: No test kit.
GH: No test kit but my water is reservoir water and water company says GH is aout 2.4

Water Volume: 125 Litres (27.5 UK Gallons, 33 US Gallons)

Lighting: 2x T8 20 Watt Hagen Life-Glo 2. - "High Intensity Lamp, high noon spectrum". 135 LUX, 6700 K.

Photoperiod about 12 hours.

Treatments added to tank on a regular basis. API Stress Coat, Flourish Excel. Semi-regularly: Small amounts of Melafix and Pimafix.

Feed twice daily: Usually King British Tropical Mini pellets and catfish pellets. Regular frozen foods.

Only new food is this Daphnia that's not frozen, it's in sachets called Tetra Fresh Delica Daphnia.

That's all I know. Nothing really has changed in water quality since the tank was set up about 7 months ago. And the filter media was from my old tank so it's matured about 1 and a half years.

Any ideas?


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## Dutch Dude

Chris,....well to me it isn't that weird that it came back. As you probably know algae need certain circumstances to grow. When they grow they grow very rapid! Some of those good circumstances is a lot of oxygen, nutrition and especially phosphate, lots of blue and uv light and long light periods. Obvious the algae in your tank do have some good circumstances. To you / us to find out what they are so you can make it poor for them. By adding meds to combat algae you didn't changed anything to those circumstances. Yes the algae were killed (most of them) but only 2 or 3 survivors will come back,.....unless you make their circumstances poor so they can only established in small numbers and won't be any trouble. Small changes can make a big diference and large changes can couse a disaster. So what ever you change on prams, lighting and so on,...do it step by step!

So,...your tank....

Water seem to be perfectly fine and extreme soft but this definitely would not be beneficial for the algae bloom!

Lighting,....if the light level is low 12 hours will be fine. In your case the light level is quit high so this will be beneficial for the algae. As long as plants consume more nutrition as algae you would be fine but Echinodorus don't take a lot of nutrition from the water it selves. So this can be an issue. Except for that I get the impression that the type of tube light gives quit a lot of blue. Is the light color bright Chris?

Water treatment,....stress coat? Why? I can't see no reason for you to add this to the water. It could be beneficial in a Q tank with new bought fish to reduce the change on Ich but in a healthy tank with healthy fish it is of know use. Lots of troubles begin with this kind of supplements and except for that they cost you quit some money.

I did not know the Melafix and Pimafix but this is what I found on the internet,...a great article!

http://www.reefland.com/forum/marine-fi ... -work.html

I realy recommend to stop this treatment and save some money on it.

Florish,..never used it but sounds save by me! Lots of ferts add nitrate or phosphate to the water so be carefull with that. Dennerle V30 is also save to use and might be a good product in addition to the flourish. But if the plants grow normally and they seem to be nice green and healthy I would not change this. Just keep the V30 in your mind if plant growth slows down or leaves become yellow or fragile.

So put this thing together I suggest the next.
- quit stress coat immediately
- quit Melafix and Pimafix immediately

In the past I talked to some guy over here with the same troubles as you got. I can't remember if it was you or someone else. This guy did had 2 light strips but not behind each other but next to one other. If you are that guy I have to adjust the things I suggested underneath. For now I assume you got 2 light, one in the front and one in the back.

I would change at least one tube light and put in a 830 of Philips. You can get those over there right? Osram (83)is also fine and the same color. This tube light does contain a lot of orange in their spectrum what makes it hard for algae and very good for plants to grow. Plants do need abouth 2 weeks to adjust to the new spectrum so plant growth could be slowed down a bit for a short period.

I also think the light quantity is high and especially with the 12 hours duration. I suggest to change the lighting periods and build a dark period in between. Make sure tube light are on for at least 4 hours otherwise the photosynthesis in the plants didn't worked becouse the period is to short. I would use the next schedule.

tubelight unit 1 -> on 9:00 off 13:30 / on 16:00 off 23:30 = 12 hours (preferable Philips 830)
tubelight unit 2 -> on 9:15 off 13:15 / on 17:00 off 23:00 = 10 hours (yours or Philips 840)

I suggest not to change the light schedule at once but do it slowly. Remember,....large changes can be a disaster! I suggest you put on the current schedule so I can give you some suggestion how to change.

The dark period in between makes it harder for algae to grow. It doesn't effect the fish and in nature it can become dark during a thunderstorm in the wet season. It also contributes to the CO2 level. When lights go on it is only one that switches on or off at a time. It begins and ends with the Philips 830 and this is a warm color that resembles a sun set. Your fish know after a while that the second light will go out as well and take shelter to rest for the night just before it switches off.


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## ChrisWalker

Ruurd, Wow thanks for the info.

I'll stop buying Pimafix and Melafix. Done. I'll try and get those bulbs you recommend. The light in the bulbs is quite b

The Stress coat name is quite confusing, it's primarily my water de-chlorinator. Because I do my water changes straight from the tap I need it. And it's quite cheap.

Another problem, my lights are built into the hood and are controlled by 1 switch so I can't switch them on individually. I thought my lighting was quite low at only about 1.4 Watts per gallon.

The bulbs are just 1 behind the other on the hood.

This is the spectrum of it:










I'll try and cut the photoperiod for sure, and try and get hold of the philips bulbs.

Thanks a lot for the advice Ruurd.


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## Dutch Dude

Chris,....good to hear you already stop buying Pimafix and Melafix. I think it is a doubtful product and if it would work I still don't see the benefits of it in your clean well maintained healthy tank.

It is hard to find the spectrum curves on the internet but I can tell that the Philips 830 is abouth the same as the Dennerle tube on this page. http://www.dennerle.de/TrocalSpezialPlant.htm
The only diference is that the Dennerle tube got a foil layer that slightly reduce the blue and UV part. The dotted curve you see on this page are the growing curves of plants and algae. The small dots are of algae and the large dots are of a plant. As you can see plants grow best on a high red spectrum and algae the worst. The arrows point at the missing colors that reduces algae growth.

The spectrum of your tubelight contains a lot of green and quit a lot of blue and UV. This is beneficial for algae growth! The red spectrum is a bit low. Give yourself the time to get used to the color diference. At first it can be quit a shock if you are used to the bright lights. Your current tubes would be suitable in the front to brighten things up. I do think the Philips 840 would be a better choice and is an excellent combination with the 830. Both tubelights are standard colors and cheap. You can also check the Dennerle special plant and dennerle congo white. Those are abouth the same and only diference is the blue and UV reducing foil.

Have you checked if the stress coat does more and add stuff to the water. A good alternative could be Tetra Aquasafe.

The tubes can't be switched separately so I suggest to do the next.

on 9:00 off 13:30 / on 16:30 off 23:00 = 11 hours in total.

From this point you can experiment and slowly fine tune. My 50 (US)gallon tank does have a single tubelight (Philips 840) 30 Watt with a mirror and is 11 hours on like I mentioned abouve. :wink: So only 0.6 watt a gallon. I do add CO2!


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## ChrisWalker

Hi Ruurd.

Thanks for all this help. Once again I'm in awe of your enourmous Fishy knowledge :lol:

I've looked and can't find those philips lights anywhere in the UK. Are they a special aquarium light? Or are they just a normal flourescant tube for lighting?

I did find this Interpet Beauty light though. It says it's for aquariums that don't have plants and it doesn't encourage algae growth.

Here's the spectrum.










Would that be a good alternative if I can't find the others you mentioned?

Thanks so much Ruurd.


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## Dutch Dude

Chris,...I can't see the pic for some reason. I checked google but could not find the tube lights of Philips and Osram neither the Arcadia. For some reason I could not open the co.uk pages.

They are just common tube lights and the 840 is used a lot in office lighting. Its common name is Cool White (4000K, color index RA 85) The 830 is named Warm White over here (3000K color index RA 85). You can check this page for the spectrum. Unfortunately it is in Dutch but you can find the spectrum in the middle of the page. http://www.aquaclopedie.nl/informatie/licht.html#kleurW
I did find some xxxxx.co.uk pages on the Internet which should contain Philips TL-D tube lights but for some reason I can't open this pages. So I guess it should be available over there.


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## Supercoley1

Chris

for lights check lampspecs website. they sell almost all tubes.

Note for Ruurd - Not sure on Pimafix but Melafix is a natural med from API which is safe to use even with other meds. It is basically a tea tree oil mix.

Not that I need to use at the mo or indeed a long time as I have no need but I use a homemade version of 1ml tea tree oil mixed with 500ml DI water. Then shake before use.

Andy


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## Dutch Dude

Chris,â€¦I obviously got a virus on my PC that slows down all processes and don't allow me to visit co.uk sites. So I took a peek at work this morning and came up with the next links. Here you can find T8 and T5 tube lights of Philips and Osram with the mentioned spectrums. The spectrum of the tube light you added doesn't seem to be a good choice. This type of tube light takes up the red AND the blue / UV part. The green / yellow spectrum is very low and this will give a strange effect. So,â€¦this one is beneficial for the algae and does have a strange effect. I would not recommend it.

Here the links towards the Philips / Osram tube lights.
http://www.gbbulbs.co.uk/acatalog/Longlife.html
http://www.thelightbulbshop.co.uk/Shop/ ... iency.aspx


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## Dutch Dude

sorry double post


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## Dutch Dude

Andy,....I think my tank looks fine without it :wink:


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## Supercoley1

Indeed it does Ruurd. Was just giving you the info on what it was. I used to use it loads ages ago when I had mollies (the females always get a little beaten up during pregnancy)

Andy


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## Geejo4

I went to my lfs today to look for some Bolivians and finally there was some! As I was waiting for someone to help me a young girl about 7 decides that she also wants some of the Bolivians also. Cool right? NO! There was only three in the whole store, 2 in one tank and one in the other. :x Her and her dad was helped first. I was going to be so mad if she got more than one. She gets the one in the tank by itself and only gets that one. I was so happy. I had been watching the other two and thought that they might be a pair. I ended up getting those two and now they are in my 29 gallon tank. Hopefully I will be able to get some good enough pictures so I can have some one help sex them. Just thought i should tell my story for the day.  thanks!

-Joey


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## GoDSMiLe

Dutch Dude said:


> Some of those good circumstances is a lot of oxygen, nutrition and especially phosphate, lots of blue and uv light and long light periods. Obvious the algae in your tank do have some good circumstances.


Phosphate is actually a limiting nutrient for plants, and depriving your tank of it can actually lead to algae growth, as it'll allow algae to take advantage of nutrients in the water column that the plants cannot because of the lack of phosphate. I dose with dry phosphate every other day for my tank. The best place to get information on planted tanks is Barrreport.com, run by Tom Barr, one of if not the premier plant specialists in the US.



Dutch Dude said:


> Lighting,....if the light level is low 12 hours will be fine. In your case the light level is quit high so this will be beneficial for the algae. As long as plants consume more nutrition as algae you would be fine but Echinodorus don't take a lot of nutrition from the water it selves. So this can be an issue. Except for that I get the impression that the type of tube light gives quit a lot of blue. Is the light color bright Chris?


12 hours is normally given as the maximum time for lighting, and I would say its more typical to start with 10 and gradually increase if you don't have any algae problems. After approximately 12 hours the plants are unable to continue taking up carbon for growth, while algae has no problems at all.

Also, in regard to blue vs. red, I've only ever heard of differences in how plants grow (blue= shorter and bushier, red= tall and thinner). Karen Randall, another prominent aquatic gardener in the US, has used regular 4100K shop lights with success, and pretty much states that plants will adapt to the spectrum, making it a matter of personal opinion. Anywhere in betwee 2700K and 10,000K should be ok, with most people's preference being either 5000K or 6700K.



Dutch Dude said:


> I also think the light quantity is high and especially with the 12 hours duration. I suggest to change the lighting periods and build a dark period in between. Make sure tube light are on for at least 4 hours otherwise the photosynthesis in the plants didn't worked becouse the period is to short. I would use the next schedule.
> 
> tubelight unit 1 -> on 9:00 off 13:30 / on 16:00 off 23:30 = 12 hours (preferable Philips 830)
> tubelight unit 2 -> on 9:15 off 13:15 / on 17:00 off 23:00 = 10 hours (yours or Philips 840)


I have never heard of any provable advantages of the dark period, and anecdotal evidence on the Krib suggests that some people have suffered disaster with it. Tom Barr, on the topic, says if you feel the need have one, make sure each photo period is at least 5-6 hours, and the dark period is less than 2 hours.

Chris,
Tom Barr's research has lead him to believe the two greatest contributors to algae are any ammonia and a lack of nutrients, specifically carbon above all others. You add ferts (Flourish) but did not mention any CO2, which in most tanks is the greatest nutritional deficiency. If I read your post correctly, you've got 1.2 (US) WPG. This is a little low if you are planning on fertilizing, which might be a cause of excess nutrients in your water column, which could allow for algae growth.

You said that you had an algae bloom, correct? What type of algae is it exactly? You mentioned how your water sometimes looks murky, is that the algae you are referring to or something else more specifically? Milky water generally is attributed beneficial bacteria in the water column (and not in your filter gravel). This might happen with extremely thorough gravel vacuuming, increased fishload, overzealous filter cleaning, underfiltering, etc. Do you notice the algae after water changes?

Rex Grigg, another good place to start for plant information, has a website with common algae problems and good treatments 
link

Hope this helps,
Mike


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## Supercoley1

> After approximately 12 hours the plants are unable to continue taking up carbon for growth, while algae has no problems at all.


This isn't true at all. Plants will stop taking nutrient when they have had enough for the day which is why some plants start to draw their leaves in after 4-5 hours in some cases (mainly high light tanks) and is also why some of us use much shorter photoperiods like 8/9 hours to reduce the light after they stop so that algae cannot use this time.



> I have never heard of any provable advantages of the dark period, and anecdotal evidence on the Krib suggests that some people have suffered disaster with it.


This dark period is quite often used in non CO2 or yeast setups where the CO2 gets depleted. The dark period can then let the CO2 build up before the second photoperiod.

I think its a dennerle statement from their website that talks about tropical storms but how true this is Im not sure. I cant see it doing any harm as long as the 2 photoperiods are at least 4 hours each.

Here in the UK many of our top aquascapers are dosing at as low as 1WPG with great results. Water changes are also used (not EI quantities) to dilute the nutrient (if any) that is left.

Although I do agree with you on the phosphate issue I dont think from seeing pictures of Dutchdue's tank you can call into question the fact that he has success with his methods so if it works for him and Chris has similar level lighting then I can't see a problem with following his philosophy on planted tanks.

There are many different philosophies on how to create a planted tank and wether a user is right or wrong scientifically it doesn't matter if they achieve their desired results.

Andy


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## ChrisWalker

Ok guys. Thanks a lot for all of this it's really helpful.

Here's how it is at the moment. I've a feeling it may have been primarily to do with my lighting. I was using 2 Hagen Light-Glo 20watt high intensity light. Their highest point in the spectrum was in the green, with quite low blue and yellow.

I'm now using a Warm White bulb (like Ruurd suggested) and an Arcadia Original Tropical lamp with this spectrum:










I know the algae isn't caused by ammonia as i test frequently and never slip on my water change schedule so my water is always tip top (in terms of Nitrite, Nitrate, and Ammonia).

I only dose the Flourish Excel once or twice a week. So maybe the Carbon in the water is a problem as well as the light.

I'm a student so I can't afford a proper Co2 system, but could make a home made one. How would this affect my water conditions? Would I have to do more water changes? What would it do to my PH (currently 6.6)?

GodSmile: In regards to types of algae, I get green spot algae (i think) on the front of the glass. I get algae on plant leaves and my filter too.

The thing that's wierd is that the tank was ok for so long. And nothing really changed to cause this, except the use of those Octozin tablets to get rid of an internal bacteria problem.

Would it be of any use for me to post results of that Co2 test from the RexGrigg page?


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## Supercoley1

Chris

If its a CO2 test chart with Kh and Ph then ignore it. incredibly inaccuraate and not worth bothering about. If you reached 30ppm then your Ph would drop approx 1Ph

If your WPG is under 2 then I wouldnt bother with CO2. You are adding some with Excel and also the natural that there is. Godsmile would agree that TomBarr does some good guides for Non CO2 Lower light tanks.

Just FYI the Original Tropical is 4500K and is a plant spectrum light.

GSA is normally caused by lack of phosphate from all the reading and experience I have had with it. Normally comes on new tanks or tanks that have the glas cleaned all the time. If you leave it to run its cycle it should start to go orange and brown in 3-4 weeks. Then wipe it off making sure to remove most of it and you should never see it again. You will however still get diatoms on the glass which is good news for Otos and plecs.

Black algae on your filter I assume. BBA - Black brush Algae. Most of us in the UK get this with or without good CO2 and good circulation. There are some people running some test on control tanks here in the UK on another forum I go in to see if has any bearing to the relatively hard water that we in the UK have.

I think its the Octozin. Whenever I use Sterazin (I assume yours is a waterlife product too) I get a white film on the top of my water.

Andy


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## Dutch Dude

Godsmile,.....



> Dutch Dude wrote:
> Some of those good circumstances is a lot of oxygen, nutrition and especially phosphate, lots of blue and uv light and long light periods. Obvious the algae in your tank do have some good circumstances.
> 
> Phosphate is actually a limiting nutrient for plants, and depriving your tank of it can actually lead to algae growth


*I was talking about good circumstances for algae growth! *



> 12 hours is normally given as the maximum time for lighting, and I would say its more typical to start with 10 and gradually increase if you don't have any algae problems. After approximately 12 hours the plants are unable to continue taking up carbon for growth, while algae has no problems at all.


I was pointing to the situation with low light levels. Some plants (Echinodorus) will need a longer lighting period like 12 hours on low lighting levels. I would prefer a shorter period in common lighting levels. That's why I suggest 2 short periods.



> Quote:
> After approximately 12 hours the plants are unable to continue taking up carbon for growth, while algae has no problems at all.
> 
> This isn't true at all. Plants will stop taking nutrient when they have had enough for the day which is why some plants start to draw their leaves in after 4-5 hours in some cases (mainly high light tanks) and is also why some of us use much shorter photoperiods like 8/9 hours to reduce the light after they stop so that algae cannot use this time.


Andy,....we agree on that!



> Also, in regard to blue vs. red, I've only ever heard of differences in how plants grow (blue= shorter and bushier, red= tall and thinner). Karen Randall, another prominent aquatic gardener in the US, has used regular 4100K shop lights with success, and pretty much states that plants will adapt to the spectrum, making it a matter of personal opinion. Anywhere in betwee 2700K and 10,000K should be ok, with most people's preference being either 5000K or 6700K.


Yes there are some differences on aquatic plants v.s. light spectrum. This isn't to dramatic. It is proven that plants grow best on orange. When changing a light spectrum plants have to adapt to that particularly spectrum. This will take about 2 weeks. Algae can't adapt like plants and need the blue UV part. So over in Europe we try to reduce the Blue / UV part in the spectrum for planted tanks so plants will grow just as good and algae will have poor circumstances. Try your selves some spectrum's around 4000K. Much more warmth and nicer colors as the bright lighting.



> I have never heard of any provable advantages of the dark period, and anecdotal evidence on the Krib suggests that some people have suffered disaster with it. Tom Barr, on the topic, says if you feel the need have one, make sure each photo period is at least 5-6 hours, and the dark period is less than 2 hours


I do this for more than 7 years and for me it works. Also,.....



> This dark period is quite often used in non CO2 or yeast setups where the CO2 gets depleted. The dark period can then let the CO2 build up before the second photo period.
> 
> I think its a dennerle statement from their website that talks about tropical storms but how true this is Im not sure. I cant see it doing any harm as long as the 2 photoperiods are at least 4 hours each.


This is indeed the reason why I tried it and why I stick to it,....it works for me!



> Tom Barr's research has lead him to believe the two greatest contributors to algae are any ammonia and a lack of nutrients, specifically carbon above all others. You add ferts (Flourish) but did not mention any CO2, which in most tanks is the greatest nutritional deficiency. If I read your post correctly, you've got 1.2 (US) WPG. This is a little low if you are planning on fertilizing, which might be a cause of excess nutrients in your water column, which could allow for algae growth.


So tell me how I can grow plants in my Bolivian tank (pics previously to this discussion) with only 0.6 Watt / (US)gallon ??? I don't think 1.2 WPG is not enough. I am convinced that making the circumstances bad for the algae and good for the plants will solve the problem. Plants have to take over from the algae. In the current situation the algae are in charge so why give them more light to even grow faster?

Soooo,.....I will give you something to think about.

Years of gathering info on US tank enthusiasts and systems to create perfect circumstances. For you it works Mike so I won't argue your philosophy.

Over in Europe we have different methods and Dennerle put up quit a new philosophy. I was open to it and tried it. For me this method works.

Abouth 25 years ago my dad had a discus tank,....CO2 was still the stuff in the beer and the Coke but people in the aquarium hobby never heard of it. He filtered on a small Eheim over peat and carbon with oldfasion warm white tube lights. With great success! No algae issues and nice green plants without adding ferts to the water.

So what I tried to say,.......one method isn't holy and there are more roads leading to Rome! Some system may work for you but don't work for me (and reversed). It all depends on a certain balance. Some may find that balance with your philosophy and some may find it with the Dennerle philosophy. I was open towards it and I hope you will be to.

Chris,......I suggest to take some time and do one step at the time. CO2 can be added later on or not added at all. This can depend on plant growth and balance.


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## Dutch Dude

Geejo,......Joey,...good to hear you found a nice pair of Bolivians! You are so lucky the little girl didn't bought the pair :lol: Well it would be nice to see some pics of the tank and the fish over here!


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## Incredulous_Ed

Hey all, new to the club. I have a pir of bolivinas in my 20gal and the male wants to pair up with the female. He will display his fins, flare his gills, and then try to rub his body against hers, but she just ignores him. Anything I can do to make her want to breed with him?

Also, should I add a flowerpot so they can spawn in?


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## ChrisWalker

Incredulous_Ed said:


> Hey all, new to the club. I have a pir of bolivinas in my 20gal and the male wants to pair up with the female. He will display his fins, flare his gills, and then try to rub his body against hers, but she just ignores him. Anything I can do to make her want to breed with him?
> 
> Also, should I add a flowerpot so they can spawn in?


Ha ha... Sound like my oldest 2 rams.

Welcome to the club. Mine have been like that for 14 months and finally a week ago the female looked like she'd accepted him, and they began digging pits and cleaning stones. Sadly nothing came of it. But here's hoping for next time.

I've never had luck with flower pots, the rams always seemed to avoid them. Seems more of a Blue Ram thing than bolivian. Bolivians prefer flat or smooth stones, and slate. That kind of thing.


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## ChrisWalker

Hi guys.

All boring algae problems aside  My new rams are still doing well, and putting on weight lol.

2 weeks on.

Male.









Female









Just thought i'd share.

How old do you think they are? They're about 4-5 cm from nose to end of tail.


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## Geejo4

Dutch Dude said:


> Geejo,......Joey,...good to hear you found a nice pair of Bolivians! You are so lucky the little girl didn't bought the pair :lol: Well it would be nice to see some pics of the tank and the fish over here!


I was sooo happy when she didn't get them! Haha. Everytime I load pictures to photobucket they get really dark and/or blurrier than they already are? So they are really bad. Sorry.  Number 1 has the more slender head so I originally thought female but by their vents I thought male. The same thing except reverse with number 2.

Here is number 1. (the suspected female[according to their vents])








Here is number 2. (the suspected male)









Sorry that they are soo bad! haha
-Joey


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## traumatic

haven't been around in a while just wanted to update y'all on my BRs


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## Dutch Dude

Chris,.....the youngsters do fine and they already show some more flesh to their bones. Still stress spots but they need some time to settle in. Abouth the age,...hard to tell. In a normal situation they should be 5 cm at the age of approximately 8 months. When I take a look at the size of they eyes I noticed they are quit large compared to the size of the body. This could be of a set back in growth. So they could be a bit older. Bolivians keep on growing to the age of 1,5 years so they will grow larger in the next couple of months.

Geejo,....thanks for sharing the pics. Not a perfect quality pic but clear enough to get an impression. They look normal to me but they are skinny and need some more flesh to their bones. Unfortunately a lot of fish are skinny when we buy them in the lfs. Did you checked this treat on feeding Bolivians?

Traumatic,....good to see you on here and,.....wonderful healthy Bolivians!!! Very nice fish in a very nice tank!!! The tank is a bit small but their beauty proves they are happy! I like the aqua scape and this creates lots of shelter and some open arias :thumb:


----------



## andrew__

Well, I've sold my angels and getting ready to move onto something else for my tank, still no idea what though. A local SA dwarf expert will be getting in a shipment of apistos in a week or two so I may try to set up half the tank for a trio with my rams getting the other half, or maybe expand my current group... my rasboras have been re-homed and I'm thinking of selling off my lemon tetras to get something that schools well. everything's still up in the air though.

Rams continue to spawn, emperor tetras seem interested in doing the same, plecos are also spawning. In April I'll (possibly) be moving back in with my parents where the water is slightly softer so hopefully everyone will do better then.

*traumatic*: Very nice looking tank and fish  I wish I could get B. japonica to grow :roll:


----------



## traumatic

well, Thanks guys much appreciated.

Dutch Dude, I attribute thier beauty to whoever had them before me. I'm sure they've changed hands a few times. Both the rams (m&f) have staked out thier own territory and are having nothing to do with each other atm. I'm hoping to eventually get them to another tank - alone.

andrew__, thanks, the blyxa is growing extremely well for me and needs to be trimmed once or twice a month. The CO2 and my fert schedule have been tweeked just right recently and the plants have been doing very well over all.


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## Dutch Dude

Andrew,.....sorry but I can't remember the size of your tank. A group of Bolivians are much more fun as a single couple but the combination of a pair of Bolivians and some apisto would be very interesting to. If I remember correctly A. Borellii also occur in Guapore / Mamore rivers so they surely would fit in. Except for that,....Borelly are a more tolerant specie. Agassizzii would also be a very nice choice imo!


----------



## Dutch Dude

Traumatic,.....well your Bolivians are very nice specimen :thumb:

I like the aquascape of the tank very much and although it is a small tank I'm convinced your Bolivian couple will thrive in it because of the densely vegetation.

Keep up the good job :thumb:


----------



## Geejo4

Dutch Dude said:


> Geejo,....thanks for sharing the pics. Not a perfect quality pic but clear enough to get an impression. They look normal to me but they are skinny and need some more flesh to their bones. Unfortunately a lot of fish are skinny when we buy them in the lfs. Did you checked this treat on feeding Bolivians?


The pics are really bad.  haha. I will try to get some clearer pictures. I do vaguely remember something on feeding Bolivians but I don't remember any detail. Was it in this thread?


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## Geejo4

Got some pictures. Not sure if they are any better though.... Some have flash too! :lol:


























































and here is a video. I hope this works...
http://s246.photobucket.com/albums/gg92 ... 0_1061.flv


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## andrew__

Dutch Dude said:


> Andrew,.....sorry but I can't remember the size of your tank. A group of Bolivians are much more fun as a single couple but the combination of a pair of Bolivians and some apisto would be very interesting to. If I remember correctly A. Borellii also occur in Guapore / Mamore rivers so they surely would fit in. Except for that,....Borelly are a more tolerant specie. Agassizzii would also be a very nice choice imo!


It's a 75 though I think earlier I mentioned my future downgrade in volume but upgraded in length to a 5' 66gal in April.

I had no idea Borellii were even close to Bolivian Rams location-wise! I think you've just made up my mind. These are my favourite apistos and that they're from a similar location as these rams... :thumb: might have to start looking for some location specific tetras or pencilfish now.

rescaped my tank tonight (decided to spread out the few plants I have to give my fish more hiding places) and made my male ram very happy with a cluster of rocks, where he's been pretty much since then - should have made this area on the side of the tank beside my desk, now I'll never see him! :wink:


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## Dutch Dude

Geejo,....hahaha,...jeeeh some pics got flash indeed. Is your tank that low lighted or does the cam records it so dark? Did you checked the settings on the cam (brightness)? As far as I can see they already display nice colors so that's great! They can have a bit more meat on their bones but with a good balanced and high quality foods this won't be a problem.

Andrew,..sorry bud,...so much postings going on so I just can't remember but thanks for the info. A 66 gallon 5 foot tank is really wonderful for dwarfs and a large group of tetras would be an awesome sight!

Don't pin point me but if I'm correct Borellii also occur in the Guapore. That's the same with Gymnogeophagus Balzanii. I could not find this on mongabay http://fish.mongabay.com/data/Bolivia.htm 
I'm quit sure I did read this several times before. The A. Trifasciata is also good available and is also from Bolivia and not that rare.

Here a link with more info on Borellii and the distribution of the specie. 
http://cichlidae.com/gallery/species.php?s=262
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... php?id=243



> rescaped my tank tonight (decided to spread out the few plants I have to give my fish more hiding places) and made my male ram very happy with a cluster of rocks, where he's been pretty much since then - should have made this area on the side of the tank beside my desk, now I'll never see him!


 :lol: Maibe he is a bit shy :wink:


----------



## andrew__

Dutch Dude said:


> Andrew,..sorry bud,...so much postings going on so I just can't remember but thanks for the info. A 66 gallon 5 foot tank is really wonderful for dwarfs and a large group of tetras would be an awesome sight!
> 
> Don't pin point me but if I'm correct Borellii also occur in the Guapore. That's the same with Gymnogeophagus Balzanii. I could not find this on mongabay http://fish.mongabay.com/data/Bolivia.htm
> I'm quit sure I did read this several times before. The A. Trifasciata is also good available and is also from Bolivia and not that rare.
> 
> Here a link with more info on Borellii and the distribution of the specie.
> http://cichlidae.com/gallery/species.php?s=262
> http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... php?id=243


Checked PFKs fishmapper, and it shows Borellii being further south of the rams, generally only occuring in Paraguay. There were no collection points listed in Bolivia per se for trifaciata, however aside from sharing territory with Borellii in Paraguay they also are found along the Brazil/Bolivian border as far north or further than Bolivians. I'm willing to venture a little away from a "true biotope" so this isn't really a problem, I'll get a trio of whichever comes in next week and in my budget :wink:



Dutch Dude said:


> rescaped my tank tonight (decided to spread out the few plants I have to give my fish more hiding places) and made my male ram very happy with a cluster of rocks, where he's been pretty much since then - should have made this area on the side of the tank beside my desk, now I'll never see him!
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: Maibe he is a bit shy :wink:
Click to expand...

doubt it, his territory is front and center in the tank, he's left that area right now to come see if I'm going to feed him, but headed back to his rocks when he saw me looking.


----------



## Dutch Dude

Andrew,.....PFK's fishmapper,.....were can I find this???? Sounds interesting!!! So they occur in Bolivia but only on the Southern border with Brazil?

It is extremely hard to get a river biotope and collecting your own fish on special arranged trips would be awesome (like the trips arranged by Fellipe Cantera in Uruguay). Unfortunately a lot of profiles are incorrect or just a lack on info abouth fish collections and studies at specie distribution.

A biotope tank doesn't have to be a collection of fish and plants from the same river. This can also be from the same aria. So you could have a Bolivian biotope. I think it is more important that fish match and come from the same habitat and conditions. I'm sure A Borelli will thrive in the same conditions as the Bolivians. They are hardy (for an Apisto) good looking, and good available and easy to breed.

Abouth the shy Bolivian,.....shy towards you,....it was a joke :wink:


----------



## Dutch Dude

Andrew,...I found fishmapper but unfortunately it isn't correct all the time. For sure the Gymnogeophagus map is wrong and lots of locations are missing. Balzanii also occur in north Uruguay. The Bolivian map shows only collecting from the Mamore and non from the Guapore as far as I can see.


----------



## Dutch Dude

Oooh by the way,...if it is correct,....Apistogramma agassizzi Mamore Bolivia


----------



## Supercoley1

Ruurd - I think the fishmapper is just registered collection points for the fish and not where they actually live.

Some people claim a fish is from a different area than it was actually collected from. The fish does also live in the area that they state but most likely was either caught at the fishmapper site and a seller is claiming different or was collected from an unregistered site either illegally or legally not entirely sure if all collection sites have to be registered.

Andy


----------



## mdog

Hello all,
As mentioned earlier in this thread I have been treating two rams that were spitting out food and I have had some success. One was treated in the main tank and one is still in a hospital tank. They are both eating frozen bloodworms and frozen brine shrimp now. They eat some flake but also spit some of the flake out. Any opinions on this? How often do you all feed frozen foods compared to flake and pellets? Should I put the fish back into the main tank soon? It has been eating for 3 or 4 days now. I was planning on doing a water change in the main tank, adding or re-arranging some rocks and moving the ram back in. Thanks for the help.


----------



## Geejo4

Dutch Dude said:


> Geejo,....hahaha,...jeeeh some pics got flash indeed. Is your tank that low lighted or does the cam records it so dark? Did you checked the settings on the cam (brightness)? As far as I can see they already display nice colors so that's great! They can have a bit more meat on their bones but with a good balanced and high quality foods this won't be a problem.


My tank gets about 3 watts per gallon and is very bright, except when I take pictures... :roll: . I have a terrible camera. I will try to play with the brightness on it. I will be sure to give them some food also! Thanks!

-Joey


----------



## andrew__

I figured there would be a lot of missing information from there but as a general guide it's pretty good.

My tank will likely never be a good biotope since almost none of my plants are from South America and I'm keeping my emperor tetras (from Columbia, apparently) and corys.


----------



## Nowherman6

Hey everyone,

I by no means want to hijack this thread, but since this is where the experts are, I thought I 'd drop my question in here.

I'm planning a 20g long and once plants start to grow in and settle, I plan on adding some SA dwarves, preferably bolivian rams. I guess my question is, in a 30" X 12" tank, must they be kept in pairs?

Thanks, lots of great info around here


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## andrew__

personally, I would keep a pair of Rams in there. that's the same footprint as my old 38gal and I'm not sure I'd be comfortable keeping two pair in that size tank, and from what I've read rams are not the best fish to keep in trios (though many apistos can be and would also be very happy in a tank that size.)


----------



## Supercoley1

mdog said:


> Hello all,
> As mentioned earlier in this thread I have been treating two rams that were spitting out food


My Rams go for a bloodworm, flake or pellet and then spit it out whilst unching on some of it then they go for it again and do the same. Is this not normal? They eat it all and are nice and fat so I assumed they were just eating what they can manage to keep in their mouth a bit like us cutting our food as we eat it?

Andy


----------



## mdog

Supercoley1 said:


> mdog said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello all,
> As mentioned earlier in this thread I have been treating two rams that were spitting out food
> 
> 
> 
> My Rams go for a bloodworm, flake or pellet and then spit it out whilst unching on some of it then they go for it again and do the same. Is this not normal? They eat it all and are nice and fat so I assumed they were just eating what they can manage to keep in their mouth a bit like us cutting our food as we eat it?
> 
> Andy
Click to expand...

This is good to know. I'm more used to Africans that eat so wildly and never spit anything out unless they are sick.


----------



## ChrisWalker

mdog said:


> Supercoley1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mdog said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello all,
> As mentioned earlier in this thread I have been treating two rams that were spitting out food
> 
> 
> 
> My Rams go for a bloodworm, flake or pellet and then spit it out whilst unching on some of it then they go for it again and do the same. Is this not normal? They eat it all and are nice and fat so I assumed they were just eating what they can manage to keep in their mouth a bit like us cutting our food as we eat it?
> 
> Andy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is good to know. I'm more used to Africans that eat so wildly and never spit anything out unless they are sick.
Click to expand...

Hi guys.

I'll second what SuperColey said. My rams, especially the young ones (with only small mouths) do this alot with the pellets that the big rams take in one go. I see a lot of people being worried about this on forums...But it's surely not a problem.

About my algae bloom. It's still going! After changing the lights, the algae died down for a week but now it's as thick in the water as ever. I'm really struggling to think what else it could be. Water params are still fine. So anyway I just went ahead and ordered this:

http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/catalogue/aqua-el-internal-aquarium-filters-with-uv-c.asp

The 750 model, for tanks up to 300 litres, and mine is 125 litres. It also has built in UV LEDs. I'm hoping this will kill my algae. Anyone else have a UV filter?


----------



## Dutch Dude

Andrew,....I like the idea of the fish mapper and it surely is a general guide! Unfortunately there is some missing info but hey,....still lots of info on location and very useful for people interested in biotope tanks. Thanks for the info :thumb:

Nowherman,.....This wasn't a hijack and your question was Bolivian related,...so,...feel free to ask. The tank does have a nice footprint but imo still not large enough for a small group. I also advice only one couple.

Bolivians can be picky at foods. Taking a tetra crisp (red color) but do like the green once more and spit out the red and go for the next :lol: They also like to make food smaller before they eat it. So the behaviour of spitting the food out,...taste it or make it smaller and finally eat it is common behaviour. Refusing all the food indicate some troubles! Be aware of stress spots!

Chris,....so the light changing made a temporarily difference,....your close now! How are the plants doing? Are they still growing or slowed down in growth? Oooh by the way,.....the biological solution to your problem isn't done in one week! It takes more time.

Some suggestions:
- if the plants grow at a normal rate I suggest to reduce the second light period with half an hour to begin with.
- if the plants don't grow or grow poor, check op on CO2 level and add some ferts like Dennerle V30 (no phosphate and nitrate)


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## t0p_sh0tta

So, I have a 20gal long that is just about done cycling, and the LFS has a fresh shipment of Rams. There's currently nothing in my tank but some t-grade color quartz at the moment. Does anybody have any suggestions on lightly planted tanks? Pics would definitely be helpful. I plan to house a pair of Rams and maybe a couple of dithers.

Thanks,
-Lamar


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## Dutch Dude

Lamar,...are we talking abouth Rams (microgeophagus ramirezi) or Bolivians (microgeophagus altispinosa)? That's quit a difference you know.

Bolivians need plants and the more the better. Easy plants to grow are Egeria densa, java fern, anubia, valisneria. You can do with les plants but to compensate you have to put in a lot of driftwood to create territorial markers and shelter. I prefer a densely planted tank!


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## Nowherman6

Dutch Dude said:


> Nowherman,.....This wasn't a hijack and your question was Bolivian related,...so,...feel free to ask. The tank does have a nice footprint but imo still not large enough for a small group. I also advice only one couple.


Thanks Dutch Dude,

I'm actually going with a 36" X 12/13" footprint now (have a 36" stand already, why not use it all!) Glasscages makes an interesting tank, about 26 gallons, listed as 36 x 12 3/4 x 13. Either that or a full 30G, which is about 3" taller than that.

Either way, I guess still too small for more than a pair. May go with an apisto harem. Thanks again.


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## Dutch Dude

Nowherman,....If you go for the 36x12x12 and you ad lots of territorial markers and lots of plants I think you will manage to keep 2 couples in that tank! I would be careful with adding tank mates because the volume of the tank is quit small. I suggest only 5 oto's to the tank as cleaning crew. The 30 gallon tank would give you some more room for tank mates and a small group (8) of tetras can be added. Make sure the filtration can keep up on waste levels and I suggest 2 times a week a water change of 25%.


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## Dutch Dude

(8) = ( 8 ) -> small group of 8 tetras


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## andrew__

My male was feeling photogenic today


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## t0p_sh0tta

Thanks for the response Dutch Dude.

Seeing as how I'm new to this, I think that I'd be better off with the M. Altispinosa. My LFS has both, but I'd rather take the more robust fish at this point. I have several tanks that I'll be setting up in the near future, so maybe there will be some GBRs to come.

-Lamar


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## Dutch Dude

Andrew,..... nice fish! :thumb:

Lamar,.....Bolivians are indeed hardy fish and good looking to! They are not as colorful and bright colored as the Rams but they absolutely compensate with their interesting and funny behaviour. Rams are quit delicate and need the same conditions as Discus. Not the best choice for someone new to SA or the hobby.


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## Res_Publica

Well even when I have been login to cichlid-forum.com for a long time this is my first post so enjoy the pictures.


























Greetings
Javier
Trujillo Alto, Puerto Rico[/url]


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## Dutch Dude

Javier,.....those are some very nice fish! Welcome a board and thanks for sharing :thumb:


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## mdog

Hi again,
Well the Bolivian ram I was asking about died, leaving just one. Again, everything else in the tank continues to be fine but I can not seem to keep these rams. Do you think I have just been getting poor quality fish or is something else going on? I get a 6.0 pH reading (that is as low as my kit goes). Is this too low or should that be o.k.? I was told the pH may be fluctuating causing stress but why would pH fluctuate? Bacteria working? Plants growing? Those were some ideas given to me. I'm frustrated - any suggestions? Thanks.


----------



## andrew__

mdog said:


> Hi again,
> Well the Bolivian ram I was asking about died, leaving just one. Again, everything else in the tank continues to be fine but I can not seem to keep these rams. Do you think I have just been getting poor quality fish or is something else going on? I get a 6.0 pH reading (that is as low as my kit goes). Is this too low or should that be o.k.? I was told the pH may be fluctuating causing stress but why would pH fluctuate? Bacteria working? Plants growing? Those were some ideas given to me. I'm frustrated - any suggestions? Thanks.


sorry didn't see your earlier post so I might be asking questions that have already been answered.

What's your pH coming out of the tap? Are you doing anything to lower it? How often and how large are your water changes? are you using CO2 for your plants? have you been getting them all from the same source and at what size? Any symptoms in the rams that didn't make it?


----------



## mdog

Thanks Andrew,
Here are some answers:
pH out of tap is 7.2. I'm not doing anything to lower it but there are 2 pieces of driftwood in there. We do about a 20% water change every week and only add de-chlor (Amquel +). I don't add any co2 or fert. for the plants. Now that you ask I think all of the rams came from the same place, but at different times.. They were about 1.5" when I got them. As for symptoms they just get shy and stop eating. When they do eat they don't eat very enthusiastically. They don't really charge the food - the quick tetras seem to get most. They seem to go after the frozen bloodworms the best. Thanks for any input or help you can give. I'd like to get this to work!


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## andrew__

you could try some small sinking pellets to give the rams a better chance at getting the food before your tetras. I use NLS 1mm sinking discus pellets and they work pretty well. I always feed extra so my rams and corys both get food.


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## mdog

Thanks I do use the small sinkers sometimes and they do get to those a bit better. What do you think about this 6.0 pH? Is this a problem? Might this be why I'm losing these fish or do you all think I got fish from a bad batch - or from a couple of bad batches actually? Thanks


----------



## andrew__

I don't think the pH is a problem, but if you think that might be it I'd recommend smaller more frequent water changes to keep the swing smaller each time.


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## Dutch Dude

Mdog,....I was surprised by your post. You told us you were having some success and they did eat but also spit out some of the food. So if I understand correctly the fish became skinny and eventually died?

The PH of 6 should not be a problem but I personally prefer a bit higher PH. You wrote your test kit only measures as low as PH=6 so it could be lower??? Make sure you get the right reading with a test kit that will measure below PH=6. The KH and GH is also very important in this situation. If the KH and GH are to low the PH can crash. What is the nitrate level and did you measured ammonium and nitrite?

Bolivians don't like to pic their foods from the surface. Best is to feed them small sinking pellets like the NLS or the small discus pellets from Tetra and Hikary. If you do feed flakes make sure some sink and reach the bottom.


----------



## Res_Publica

Well, in my tank the PH is a 6.2. Bolivians unlike Bluerams are more tolerant of higher PH but I think 6 is Ok but always remember, a constant PH is better than X or Y PH.

Greetings
Javier 
Trujillo Alto, Puerto Rico


----------



## mdog

Thanks guys for the replies. I was surprised (and frutrated too) about the fish. It starting hiding, etc. and just wasted and died. The one remianing is very lively and eating well, as are the rest of the fish in the tank. Maybe I have been getting poor quality Bolivian rams and my water is fine? I will get a low pH test done and post results. The Nitrite is 0, Ammonia is 0, Nitrate is 5.0. I have another tank (55gal.) with the same water and same water change schedule and same readings and all the fish are thriving. I think the feeding is going o.k. now. I have small sinkers and am also making some of the flake sink and watching that all the fish get some, etc. I'm also using more frozen bloodworm. So the question is whether to start messing with the water buffers, etc. or trust the water and just try to get healthier fish from a better source?


----------



## Dutch Dude

Mdog,....I would certainly check that PH with a test kit that can measure below PH=6. Maybe it is fine but just to make sure the PH isn't below 5.5 and causing troubles.

Good to hear the other fish are OK. maybe it was just a weak fish and this can happen to all of us. As far as the water quality,....the NO2 and NO3 and ammonia levels are fine and point at a healthy very clean tank.

I'll wait for the PH level and if you will run a test at an lfs I recommend to also check the KH and GH.


----------



## blairo1

I don't think your water is the problem here, I will wait for KH GH tests but it sounds like your water is very similar to mine, actually recently I've had a pH of 7.8 out the tap and I keep the Bolivians at pH of 5.5 (my preference).

Leaving my tap water overnight with aeration is enough to see it drop to a pH of 6.0, entirely reasonable for Bolivian Rams, what about your water supply?

With a nice low KH as you pour more alkaline tap water in it hits the acidic water in the tank and "absorbs" this acidity - it can only buffer a certain extent with a low KH and therefore becomes acidic itself. In other words, if your KH is like mine then as you're adding the slightly more alkaline water to your tank, it will be dropping in pH slightly as it absorbs the acidity of the tanks water - balancing out and resulting in very little disruption of the final pH, at least, not to any extent that it has ever bothered any of my fish - not even the overly sensitive gobies. Ie my tank is 5.5, I add 25% water with pH of 6, test pH of tank and read 5.6....5.6.....5.6......5.5.

Now, if there is a substantial difference in pH or a larger water change, it is inevitable that you will see a greater knock on effect as you go outside of the water's absorption/buffering capacity. Ie if you're adding water with a pH of 7.2 to a tank with pH of 4.5 then look out is all I can say. I've done it (before I understood more) and had no problems (ph of 5 adding pH7), in fact everything was healthy, probably because I had a low enough KH that it dropped off to the tanks pH fairly quickly, but I don't advise it as it CAN and WILL put a lot of unnecessary stress on the fish.

Bolivians are hardy little things, the chances of it being your water are incredibly slim in my mind - even if your pH is rock bottom. pH of 4.5 has been done with large spawns, happy fish, excellent health, long fin extensions etc. However this really is outside of the parameters one would expect to find them in, I found better colour in the pH range of 5.5 - 6.0 and similar spawn size, metabolism etc. My point is I've kept these fish in water from pH of 4.5 - 7.5 and I know or have heard of others who keep them in anything up to 8.5....

Taking into account what I've seen from my experience in experimenting with these fish, it sounds more likely to me that it was weak, perhaps bottom of the wrung and not very capable or able to adapt to it's surroundings as well as others...... This will kill a fish almost as quickly as bad water.... Check your KH and pH, but my money is on you needing to find a better source for Bolivian Rams, unfortunately.

Buffering your water is not something you want to do unless you absolutely HAVE to, believe me. *That's* when you really start getting headaches because of pH bounceback.

Blair.


----------



## hey_wood1981

i have a group of 5 bolivian's along with angelfish and my ph is 8.2. like others i find as long as it's constant you should be fine.


----------



## mdog

Well, thanks again for all of the expert advice! I can't say how great it is to be able to hear from people (all around the globe) who know so much about what I'm trying to learn. I am old enough to remember when you would have had to go to the library to look things up. Anyway, I am glad to hear you all suspect it was the fish and not the water. I do not want to start messing with that as all the other fish and plants thrive. As far as testing the water for low pH, that was not so easy. I was surprised but the shops around here did not have low range test. I did pick up a hang in the tank pH meter that goes down to 5.5 but do not have any reading yet - supposedly takes a few hours. I'll post it when I get it. I also only found one person to test hardness (I'll probably just buy a better test kit for myself finally) and he tested "total hardness" at 25? I don't know if it's GH or KH or what. I do feel better with the info. you all have provided and will probably try fish from a different source. I saw 4 or 5 in a tank at a shop today that were small but pretty chubby and also had some decent yellow color. They were very active and pecking alot and looked better in general than the ones I bought in the past. Perhaps I'll try them.


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## Res_Publica

hey_wood.

I think that 8.2 for any South American is a little bit high, but is also true what you said, if is constant and you fish are ok, it should be fine.

Here, more pictures


























Greetings
Javier
Trujillo Alto, Puerto Rico


----------



## t0p_sh0tta

Question. In reading the Bolivian profile it states that they show "interesting" behavior in groups of 5 or more. Does anybody have a setup similar to this? What size tank would be required for such an arrangement?

Thanks


----------



## Res_Publica

I think a 30 long would be nice. I only have 4 Bolivians (1 male/3 females) in a 29 gallons tank and Iâ€™m working to get two more males.

Greetings 
Javier 
Trujillo Alto, Puerto Rico


----------



## hey_wood1981

Res_Publica

i agree. i think it's a bit high but it's high from the tap. i don't want to buffer my levels any. from what i've read it can be more of a hassle and the outcome can be bad. they seem to be very happy.

this is my first group and i have 5. they are very interesting, especially when new fish are added to the tank. it's funny to watch them scope out the newbies.


----------



## Dutch Dude

Top shotta,....I maintain 7 in a 50 gallon tank. That's realy the limit for a tank that size and you need to put in lots of territorial markers like driftwood, some flat stones and lots of plants. There is a pic of my tank abouth 3 pages back. For 5 Bolivians you need a tank of 35 gallon or more. Keep in mind that the floorspace is most important. So if a 35 is a high display tank it is still to small for 5 of them.


----------



## t0p_sh0tta

Well, I have an used 40 breeder and 30 long at the moment and I'm trying to figure out what to do with them. I recently picked up 3 females from the LFS. I think I'll finish planting the 40 and try and find 2 males to add to the mix. If problems arise, I'll sell the weaker ones off.


----------



## Dutch Dude

You will be fine with a 40 breeder and 5 Bolivians as long as you put in enough of territorial markers.

The 30 would be nice for a small harem of Apisto's or a pair of other dwarfs. It could also be a nice breeding tank for a pair of Bolivians.


----------



## mdog

Well I'm still at it and this is what I have found....Beleive it or not (I was surprised) I can't find a kit or anyone in my area to test below 6.0 pH unless I order a kit. Hopefully the 6.0 is fairly accurate and that's not an issue. Maybe you pros can use this other info: GH between 0-30 (a bit hard to read colors), KH between 0-40, pH 6.0?, NO2= 0, NO3=20 (I'm well overdue for my normal water change), temp 78, tank 29gal. Other fish are: 2 cory catfish(sterbai and I forgot the other at the moment), 3 pristella tetra, 3 serpae tetra, 5 cardinal tetra, 1 small bolivian ram. The Cardinals have been in 2-3 weeks, everything else 6-8 months or more. Everything else is doing great including plants, except as I mentioned I have lost several bolivian rams. Hopefully I just got bad fish and can re-stock without messing with the water. Any more opinions? Thanks for the patience and help.


----------



## andrew__

is that KG and GH in ppm or degrees? If that's ppm then I would 100% think about ordering a low pH test kit because it's very possible that your pH would be below 6.


----------



## Dutch Dude

Mdog,.....



> Believe it or not (I was surprised) I can't find a kit or anyone in my area to test below 6.0 pH unless I order a kit.


I'm surprised to,... my tetra test goes to 5.0 So you are using test strips? I don't think they are accurate and prefer the fluid tests. The KH and GH are ppm I guess? If the KH= 40 ppm = 2.2 you will be fine and no troubles. If it is lower your PH could also be below 6 and I doubt if this will be healthy over time. Bolivians can adapt quit well but their natural habitat most likely provide them with a higher PH around neutral. Blair also added a contribution towards this and he seem to know quit a lot abouth it so I can not argue this. Towards the measurements,....it is not accurate enough imo, especially PH, GH and KH. Hard to determine the exact value and hard to give a proper advice. I go with Andrew and also advice to order a PH test that can mesure below 6 or find someone who can measure it for you. Did you thought of a science lab or a school with a science lab? Maybe they will do it for free. The NO3 is a bit high but you know your selves. Not realy dramatic dough and for surely not causing the problems.

Your other tank inhabitants will like the soft and acid water so they won't have to much troubles with that. The Bolivians is an other story. Blair does keeps his fish at PH 5.5 and they are realy gorgeous fish. What will happen to the fish on long term can't be predicted though so we have to wait and see what their live span will be. I expect the PH 5.5. to be abouth the limit.

Hard to tell if the Bolivians were poor quality or it is (partly) caused by the water parameters. I can imagine that weakened fish will have more troubles to adjust to water close or at their limits. So it can be both. I can assure you that values of PH 6.5 to 7.5 are absolutely save. I have had Bolivians that became over 7 years of age in those conditions.


----------



## mdog

Well I'm back at it again. I had the water tested at a shop with a pH meter and it tested at 5.7. The hardness was in ppm and was on a strip test that is hard to read and from what you all say not so accurate. GH and KH both look like 0 on this strip. My common sense tells me the water should be fine, since all other fish in this tank and all other fish in another tank with same water and same maintenance thrive. Still, I'm left a bit curious. Would you buffer or add anything? I'd rather not if possible.


----------



## Dutch Dude

Well Blair keeps his fish at PH 5.5 so you will be fine to. I realy don't know abouth the long term but future will tell. If I was in your situation I would be very happy with the soft water. Now I need a RO unit to get it! I would have added some media bags with crushed coral to create more buffer. I don't like buffering the chemical way nor lowering the PH the chemical way. A small mistake can lead to a lot of troubles and fluctuating water parameters. So the only thing I would do is adding the crushed coral and experimentation on the quantity and take small steps at a time.


----------



## mdog

Dutch Dude... Thanks for the help. So for this 29 gal. about what quantity of crushed coral would you suggest so as not to disturb the existing fish? Do I put it in the filter (I have cannister) or just add some handfuls to the gravel in the tank?


----------



## Dutch Dude

Mdog,...I have know idea abouth the amount of crushed coral becouse i never needed to use it. I would have started with one hand full in a media bag or pantyhose and when you have the space preferable in the filter. Always put it in a media bag becouse you don't want to damage your impeller! I would never add it to the substrate becouse it isn't controllable. If you don't have the space in the filter I would hang the media bag with the coral in the tank close to the filter output.

I would keep an eye on the parameters the next couple of weeks. If it raises fast you can lower the quantity in the bag and if it isn't enough I would slowly increase the amount. I'm do think there are more people on C-F that use this method to create more buffer. You could open a new post to find out what their experiences are.


----------



## Geejo4

Hey everyone! I've had my Bolivians for a month tomorrow. I would like to try to breed them. I feed them a flake food and yesterday started feeding them frozen brine shrimp enriched with spirulina. The pH is at about 7.1-7.2. The temperature is around 78-79. The ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are 0. The other fish in the tank are in my signature. Is there anything else I can do to "help" them breed?  I placed a few flat stones in the tank also. Thanks!

-Joey


----------



## andrew__

Geejo4 said:


> Hey everyone! I've had my Bolivians for a month tomorrow. I would like to try to breed them. I feed them a flake food and yesterday started feeding them frozen brine shrimp enriched with spirulina. The pH is at about 7.1-7.2. The temperature is around 78-79. The ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are 0. The other fish in the tank are in my signature. Is there anything else I can do to "help" them breed?  I placed a few flat stones in the tank also. Thanks!
> 
> -Joey


sounds like a good setup to me, good luck :thumb:


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## t0p_sh0tta

Is it normal for my Rams to darken when they sleep? Every morning, they're quite dark while asleep, but they perk right up when they're awake.


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## Dutch Dude

Yes thats right. The colors turn pale and they show a lot of dark colors. They brighten up when the lights go on and need abouth 15 minutes to wake up. Keep this in mind in case you need to catch fish. They need to wake up after a completely dark period and are slow moving and les difficult to catch. :wink:


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## t0p_sh0tta

Thanks for the confirmation.


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## cichlidaholic

I'm going to try my best to get a video of this to post, but I wish you guys could see what I've got in my ram tank...

I'm sure you remember the surprise spawn that Blair and Ruurd had to talk me through about 6 months ago...I siphoned off a bunch of the fry and everyone had alot of fun at my expense because I couldn't physically "see" my little ones! :lol:

Well, I grew them out in a 5g tank for a couple of months, and once they were big enough for me to see them to catch them, I moved them to a 25G tank to grow out.

They are all between .5 and 1 inch right now...Except this one...

I noticed something darting out of the plants when I fed them the other night, but it was tiny and kept disappearing on me. I was pretty sure it had to be a ram, since that was the only thing in this tank since I had set it back up!

The next night I got down in front of the tank to watch closely when I fed them.

Sure enough, this little tiny thing comes darting out, maybe 1/4 inch...But it looks really strange, so I sat there for awhile, watching.

It is the tiniest little ram you can imagine, with no tail and no sign of ever having a tail, no eye on one side (or an indentation of where an eye ever was or could be) and this uncanny speed style "swimming" technique that tells me this little one has been this way since birth and adapted quite well.

I've been watching it daily now, and it is eating quite aggressively, but has developed this odd little way of "bouncing" itself off the leaves of the plant through the water.

There is no earthly way I could bring myself to euthanize this little guy...

Anyone ever had this happen?

I will try to get a video!

You have to see it!

Kim


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## Geejo4

cichlidaholic said:


> It is the tiniest little ram you can imagine, with no tail and no sign of ever having a tail, no eye on one side (or an indentation of where an eye ever was or could be) and this uncanny speed style "swimming" technique that tells me this little one has been this way since birth and adapted quite well.


Thats so cool! I hope he does well.


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## Geejo4

andrew__ said:


> sounds like a good setup to me, good luck :thumb:


Thanks!

-Joey


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## Geejo4

Here are a few pictures of my two. Again, I am so bad a taking pictures and the camera is horrible to begin with so sorry on the quality. I was wondering if anyone can help verify the sex of them. I have used Blair's guide and I think I have a male and female. Other people are better at this then me so I'll try to see if I am right. Thanks!

Here is the "male":









and once more...









and the "female":









...









Sorry but one other thing.  My "male" doesn't have that one main spot on him at all. Is this normal or is it just him? And is there anything that I might be doing to cause that?

Thanks!
-Joey


----------



## Dutch Dude

Kim,.....


> everyone had a lot of fun at my expense because I couldn't physically "see" my little ones!


 :lol: I'm not denying this 

So actually a deformity made it so far and adapted it selves to survive. I'm curios how it will look like but Kim,....please euthanize him. The longer you wait the more difficult to do.

I did had some deformities amongst my youngsters as well. Some were small such as curled pectoral fins, some larger such as bended spines but also some realy large deformation. Thees fish stayed small with larger heads and big eyes and abouth 1/4 of the size of their brothers and sisters. But nothing like the jumping creature you have!


----------



## cichlidaholic

I know what you're saying Ruurd...I shot a video of him but it was too dark so I'm going to try to get a better one this weekend. I think you'll be quite surprised when you see how well this little one gets around.

And then you'll see why I can't euthanize him... :roll:

Euthanasia has never been a problem for me before. But this little guy adapted and got to this point before I saw him even...6 whole months!

He will never leave my house, and I might just set him up in his own luxury suite here on my computer desk...

I'll try to get a decent video so you can see!

Kim


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## edburress

Joey....your setup looks good. I agree that you have a male and female. The female shows stress spots, but as long as her chest has a strong color like that, she is healthy. It is rare for a bolivian to not have an abdominal spot, but it does occur. One of my male fry does not have a spot either, so it is normal. It just adds character :lol: Good luck with getting them to spawn :thumb:

Ed


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## Dutch Dude

Joey,...I agrea that you have a male and a female. Nice looking fish and they are still youngsters and will gain in beauty. So you can look forward to a beautiful pair.

I would not worry abouth the missing spot. I also would not be surprised if it will be visible during spawning! I have one spots and 2 spots and during spawning the one spots show also a second spot.

Kim,....well if you make the choice to keep him it would be wise to give him a tank on his own. He probably will be a weak fish becouse of his deformities and disabilities and should not come to the point of spawning. I'm curious dough to see a pic or a vid of him.


----------



## blairo1

Hey Kim,

If he's not being beaten on, is able to feed and swim around, shows good health (aside from his slight deformation) and doesn't struggle then no real harm in caring for him and raising him - not like you'll be breeding him or selling him and if he's healthy, he's healthy. I'd be concerned about how he will fare long term in a tank with other fish, particularly other Bolivians and certainly wouldn't put him with anything more boisterous than his own kind!

Hey Ed - no abdominal spot on my dominant male:










TaDa!









:lol:

Joey - I think the others have sealed the deal, nice fish!


----------



## cichlidaholic

I'll try for another video this weekend, he hangs out around the planted corner and it's pretty hard to get the lighting like I want it. He's really good at hiding for it to take me 6 months to find him!

I'm going to set up a small tank on my desk this weekend for this little one to have to himself. He's earned it!

Kim


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## infotech

I got two Bolivian Rams about two weeks ago. They aren't nearly as colorful as some of the pictures I've seen here. I bought some blood worms for them yesterday evening hoping that it'll help bring out the colors in them.

As of today, they only have red along the edge of their fins and a little bit of other colors. Based on the size of them, I'd say one is likely full grown and the other is just a tad smaller. I'll try to get some pictures up soon.

They are a bit stand offish right now but are getting more out going as the days go buy. They'll come out from the root, or rocks and watch me while I'm working on my computer but no way they'd chase my finger around like in that video Blair posted!

Is there any chance of bring out their colors?

Here's a photo of my setup: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2349/228 ... 9975_o.jpg

I recently added a long airstone that tanks up the entire back of the tank because of some problems with my Rasboras.

My tank is cycled and I keep nitrates lower than 20 with a weekly 20-25% water change. The main type of food I feed them is slow sinking pellets.

Temp: 81 F
Tank PH: 7.5
20 gallon long 
5 Corey Trilineatus 
3 Harlequin Rasboras

This is an excellent thread! I had no idea these fish had such a following. My excellent LFS recommended them.


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## Donna &amp; David

Kim,
I can't wait to see a pic/video of your little guy! It is amazing how they can adapt and survive. I still have a brilliant rasbora that is missing his whole back tail fin (was like this when I got him) and I figured he wouldn't last the first week, well, Mr. Wiggles (as my kids named him) is still with us and wiggles everywhere! Originally I thought his tail had been eaten by something at the lfs but now that it has been so long (almost a year) I think he was born that way. I agree, your little guy deserves a palace of his own as just surviving is a big feat! Enjoy you little guy, even if he is different!


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## cichlidaholic

I agree, Donna...If this were something I had noticed in the beginning right after they were born, I would have culled the little guy - just because I would have been afraid he was suffering, and I can't stand that. But, I couldn't see the little things until they were over a month old - they looked like dust in the water to me, I had to get a friend with a SLR cam to make a pic so I could see what they looked like! 

But to find him and know that he survived 6 months and adapted so well... there is just no way I can part with him. Once I get him on his own and can observe him better, this one might even get a name! If I can get a good enough video of him, I think you'll all agree with me that these weren't injuries, they were deformities.

Considering his size and limitations, don't you guys think a 2.5 gallon hex would be okay if he's kept alone???

Kim


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## edburress

infotech....I wouldn't worry to much about your bolivians just yet, two weeks is not long to get settled in. Even if they are nearly full grown, most come from the LFS in poor condition. Mine were very young, but they took 2 months before their color came out, and 3 months before they spawned. Your setup looks fine for a pair. I would suggest adjusting your temperature down to 77 degrees, 81 is a little high for bolivians, unless your rasboras need it that high, then the bolivians will be able to cope just fine. Good luck :thumb:

Blair.... :lol: yeah my male pulls out all kinds of color patterns when trying to impress the female. He was working is stuff pretty hard without any spots but with strong facial banding...








and he wasn't getting anywhere so he tried to impress her with his spots and faded his facial banding about 20 seconds later :lol: ...









Ed


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## Geejo4

*blairo1*, *edburress*, *Dutch Dude* thanks for the comments!

I'm glad to know that a missing spot isn't anything to worry about! Thanks again!

-Joey

PS: new smilies? opcorn: :drooling: :dancing: :fish: ????


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## infotech

Thanks for the info ed. Nice looking fish you have there. Now that I know I can try and interact with them without traumatizing them, I got right up to the tank and got their attention. They came right out and stared me down and they swam around more, looked at me some more, and I'm almost certain their pelvic fins got more colorful the longer they moved around than I've seen before but it could just be I didn't know what look for/expect from them previously. I just started really reading about them. Cool fish for sure. :thumb:


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## t0p_sh0tta

What algae eaters are okay to keep with Rams?

I really like Corys, but I don't want them hanging out on the bottom, stressing my rams. Will they eat shrimp? If all else fails, I'm pretty sure Otos will work.

Thanks,

Lamar


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## blairo1

Hey Ed,

I still think your fish is one of the nicest "other" Rams I've seen, so he can't be doing too badly. You'd laugh at my male at the moment - he's actually getting harassed by the female for a change, I made a few tank layout changes to try and confuse him to give her a break - worked a charm. She's now almost ready to induce spawning and he's actually finally calmed from hyper aggro to, super aggro.... :lol:

Lamar - Corydoras are great, but they are a major PITA when it comes to breeding - as dense as they seem they are actually fantastic little fry hunters. My personal favourite for algae control are _Crossocheilus siamensis_ - the true Siamese algae eater, particularly in a planted tank - well I would actually really only recommend them in a planted tank. Without plants they can be semi-aggressive, particularly to other SAE's or Corydoras, in a planted aquarium they will be more than happy to spend all day just nibbling over plant leaves keeping everything pristine.


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## infotech

I got a couple of pictures of my Rams. They aren't nearly as colorful as they could be but I suspect they're still getting used to their surroundings because I've only had them 2 weeks.

THe pair. Can you tell if they're male and female? The image isn't that great.









Here's one of them with the Corey cats. This is their favorite corner to hide. It's behind some african root This one is a little clearer.









Finally, here's a close up of one of them. I can't tell if this one is the same as the second image or not.


----------



## blairo1

We need side on vent shots really, if you can. I know how challenging it can be with these fish. Have you read my sexing guide?

On a whim - from your first photo only, female on the left, male on the right. Those are my suspicions. With some side on, clearer pics (try and get more light in there) we should be able to say with 99% certainty.

Blair.


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## Dutch Dude

Ed,....your male is realy a stunning beautiful fish!!!! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Lamar,...... In my Bolivian tank (50 gallon 7 Bolivians) I also maintain abouth 200 cherry shrimp. Most of the shrimp live in the top layer of the tank. The Bolivians don't bother to hunt on the half grown or adult shrimp becouse they are to fast or to hard to crack. If they occasionally feed on baby shrimp. The large number of shrimp produce a awesome amount of baby's so no problem at all if some end up as snacks. I do recommend a large number of at least 20 but preferable more. You could buy 10 of them, put them in a 10 or 15 gallon and within 3 monts you will have abouth 60 or so maybe even more. Make sure there is some shelter for the shrimp so they can hide. Lots of plants will work just like java moss and floating plants. Here a pic of one corner of the tank.










I prefer Oto's as algae eaters for a Bolivian set up. They won't snack the eggs like most pleco's 
do. If you don't mind breeding them you coulp add small ( up to 4...5 inch) pleco's as well.

Infotech,....I expected pail washed out collors but hey,...they arent that bad in coloration. You see all the smal black dot's? Thats theyr stress coat. They still have to get seteled and feel secure in their new home. By that time they will gain in coloration. I noticed you have lots of blue in the spectrum of the tubelights. This will fade the red colors. So I would recommend a diferent light spectrum like a cool white tubelight.

I disagrea on Blair abouth the Crossocheilus siamensis. Although they are some of the best algea eating fish I would not recommend them in a Bolivian set up. They are highly (hyper) active and will snack fry if they get the change. They also can grow to a size of 6 to 7 inch!


----------



## t0p_sh0tta

Thanks Dutch, Otos it as (especially since my LFS is having a sale).


----------



## Dutch Dude

OK,..oto's are great fish. Be careful with introducing and take your time to mix your tank water with the water from the lfs. Keep an eye on Ich for the first 2 weeks becouse they are sensitive for that. Once they are used and settled they will be fine and great cleaning crew!!!


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## green_fox

woo i can be part of this club with 3 in my 20 gal planted


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## Dutch Dude

:lol: welcome to the club green-fox! So,....how old are your fish, did they spawn and do you have some pics? Would be nice!


----------



## pmisery

This is a great thread. I am working on changing over to some Bolivians. Would Neon's and Pete the Pirate, and the two otos make good tank mates?

Pete the Pirate is a special fish as well, he is a small little Oto that looks like he was only born with one eye. The socket si there where the eye should be but there is nothing there, so I named him Pete the Pirate.

I am excited to get some Bolivians, but I just need to take care of the tank first.


----------



## green_fox

ill try give me a couple days and no breeding


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## Dutch Dude

:lol: Pete the pirate, the neons and Bolivians mix very well! I like the story of Pete the pirate :lol: :lol: :lol:

So what size tank we are talking abouth and what are the plans for aquascaping?


----------



## Mistersprinkles

edburress said:


> infotech....I wouldn't worry to much about your bolivians just yet, two weeks is not long to get settled in. Even if they are nearly full grown, most come from the LFS in poor condition. Mine were very young, but they took 2 months before their color came out, and 3 months before they spawned. Your setup looks fine for a pair. I would suggest adjusting your temperature down to 77 degrees, 81 is a little high for bolivians, unless your rasboras need it that high, then the bolivians will be able to cope just fine. Good luck :thumb:
> 
> Blair.... :lol: yeah my male pulls out all kinds of color patterns when trying to impress the female. He was working is stuff pretty hard without any spots but with strong facial banding...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and he wasn't getting anywhere so he tried to impress her with his spots and faded his facial banding about 20 seconds later :lol: ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ed


Top fish is textbook PERFECT


----------



## cichlidaholic

I agree, but I think they are the same fish, Mistersprinkles!

Kim


----------



## edburress

Thanks everyone for the comments.

Mistersprinkles...Thanks, I appreciate the comment! Kim is right it is the same fish, you can watch a short video of his spawning colors with the link below if you want. The female he is courting is a juvenile and provides a great contrast in coloration.
http://s191.photobucket.com/albums/z3/e ... on3005.flv
Hopefully, I will have an article up soon, about breeding and raising fry.

Ed


----------



## blairo1

:lol: Ed your male and female act just like mine, he's on edge and she keeps darting off just as he gets excited :lol:.

Too funny, I love seeing it in other peoples tanks. How is the article looking?


----------



## infotech

I finally got a decent picture of one of my rams from the side. Does this look like a male or female? The other one is too fast. Every time I get close, it seems to swim away as soon as I click the button.


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## pmisery

Dutch,

Here are my tank specs.

12.5W X 30L X 18.5H are the tank specs. Which comes out to about 30.03 gallons US. Here are some more facts about my tank. I might repeat some specs but you can never have too many specs in my opinion.

Eco-Complete Substrate - 2 bags (40lbs)
Plants - Hygrophila difformis, Echinodorus, Glossostigma elatinoides, Rotala rotundifolia
Aqua Tech 30-60 Gallon HOB Filter with 3 stage filtration
Two small pieces of rock, I am forgetting what type. I have taken out the big piece on order to make room for the new pieces of driftwood that are soaking at the moment.

8.4ph with hard water.


----------



## edburress

infotech....that picture is a little too dark to say for sure. When I enlarge it, I believe I can see the female vent, but I can't be certain. The general body and head shape make me think it is a female but no promises :lol:

Blair....Yeah, they are so entertaining to watch! The article is coming along, just some painstaking editing and decisions about pictures to be done.

Ed


----------



## blairo1

> I believe I can see the female vent, but I can't be certain. The general body and head shape make me think it is a female


I second that notion....


----------



## Dutch Dude

Ed,....the male is realy stunning!!!! Nice and funny vid and thanks for sharing :thumb:

Infotech,...looks like a female to me


----------



## Dutch Dude

pmisery,......sounds good! You picked out some interesting plant species. Will you be using CO2? This will benefit your plant growth and lowers the PH as well! If you have a limited budget,....a tank that size would also do well on a yeast CO2 system and you could DIY one your self. So can I expect an Amano style tank? If so I suggest to keep the stock low and only a pair of Bolivians a school of 10 to 16 neons and Pete. You could consider adding some shrimp. Keep in mind some baby shrimp will be snacked by the Bolivians but in large numbers (20 or more) this won't be to much of a problem.

Sound to be a nice tank!


----------



## infotech

Thanks for the clarification. I was thinking that was the female but wasn't certain. The male is a bit bigger than her and has been all over her lately, chasing her, kind of nipping at her. I saw them locking lips, or whatever you call it a week ago. Today he seems to be chasing her a bit more than normal. He doesn't show the same stress markings she does but they're both eating good.

Thanks again!


----------



## Cthulhu

Hey everyone, 
I just picked up 2 bolivians this past saturday. I've been reading alot from this forum as well as the aquaria central site while researching bolivians and making the appropriate adjustments to the tank.

I think I got a male and a female. I used Baliro's sexing guide as a refrence.

They are still really smudgy from the lfs and the move but I've already noticed their colors coming in.

I had a concern about one having stringy white poo and posted about it in the illness forum.

I'm feeding slow sinking chiclid pellets and a few assorted fd foods.

One qnique thing I've noticed is that my rams are more likely to hold still for a pic than any fish I've had in the past. unfortunately my home internet is down and I can't post pics from work. hopefully by the time their colors come in well I'll be able to post a few pics.


----------



## Dutch Dude

Cthulhu,...welcome to the BRC! When Internet is up again at your home we realy like to see some pics of the fish. Good to hear you manage to sex the fish with the help of Blair his sexing guide. Sometimes it can be hard even for the more experienced Bolivian owners.

Keep a close eye on the Bolivian with the stringy white poo. It can be worms (flubendazolle is a mild worm treatment and quit save in use) but the stringy white poo can also point at Bloat. What ever you do,...feed high quality foods and keep the water clean!!! Ill check the treat on the illness board.


----------



## Cthulhu

What's the best overall food for rams?

I've been feeding slow sinking chichlid pellets (wish I could have found the regular sinking) and I also suppliment w/ assorted fd foods tubifex bloodworms and brine shrimp and the occasional algae wafer.

I just got back from petsmart and picked up some Jungle parasite clear. I've had good results with it in the past and It was the only medication I could find that covered internal parasites aside from the medicated food which I imagine would work better but I don't have much of a way to target feed my rams yet.

While I was there I also picked up some sinking shrimp pellets made by Aquarian (API).

side question: Would a ram eat fd krill? I ask because I have some left over from a previous inhabitant. they're pretty big so ouf course I would break them up before dripping them in .


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## Dutch Dude

Hmmm,...I'm a bit confused abouth your post. Are we talking abouth Microgeophagus altispinosa (Bolivians) or abouth Microgeophagus ramirezi? Quit a diference. The foods you mentioned sounds fine by me. A good quality sinking pellet, protein rich live or frozen food and some plant mater as well (algea waffers).

Are your fish ill or do you premedicate Ramirezi?

I don't know abouth Ramirezi (smaler fish) but adult Bolivians do eat krill. Be careful with those heavy fat foods becouse you can overfeed and the fish can become to fat. Chop them up in small particles will be fine. This can be a perfect food to get more flesh to the bones of skinny fish or feed to induce spawning or as a treat every once in a while.


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## Cthulhu

I'm pretty sure they're just regular bolivian rams. I'm just a bit worried about the white stringy poo I've seen. I was advised by another member not to medicate unless they start refusing food becausde the wierd poo isn't proof enough of internal parasites to risk dosing the tank.


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## cichlidaholic

Thought I'd throw this pic of "Little Forrest" in this thread!










This is the little ram that I was telling you about that managed to survive 6 months without any sign of a tail, missing an eye on the other side, and somewhat deformed on the other side of his body, as well.

He's got his own penthouse suite now, and is very happy!

I just couldn't cull the little guy. He's come too far and slipped past me for over 6 months, so he's earned the right to be pampered a bit. :wink:

Have you ever seen such a perfect little face on this good side?

Kim


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## Dutch Dude

Stringy white poo can be caused by worms or intestinal parasites like flagellates (causing bloat). If a fish that is contaminated with flagellates (and suffering bloat) it will be very hard to treat it if it refuses to feed. One reason is you can't treat the fish with medication soaked foods so the parasites will be killed from the inside of the fish. The other reason is that if the fish refuses to feed the process of bloating already has started and the fish already became very ill and weak and the chance of become cured is quit low.

Best is to move them to a quarantine tank so you can keep an eye on them and meds won't effect the display tank.

Some important things to know.
- when did you bought them
- is their something hanging out of their anus (worms)
- are they clamping fins
- are they hanging in a corner
- do they have troubles with balance
- do they feed good or do they spit out all the foods
- are the fish skinny, normal or bloated

You can check the illness board as well. I definitely would not wait to the point they won't feed any more! Important to know is how long they have the white stringy poo. If it is more as 2 day's I do suggest treatment. But first you need to know if you have to treat for flagellates or for worms.


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## Dutch Dude

Cthulhu,......sorry I forgot your name but I was pointing towards your treat on the illness board and I gave a response over there ass well.

Heeey Kim,.....we don't agrea on the stingy white poo thing! First time we disagree :lol:

So little Forrest doesn't have a tail at all! I can tell you I have had some fish like him to but with a tail! Some of them did quit well and hardly grow in length but became rounder and high bodied and stayed behind in development. Some died natural becouse of the deformities (probably also on internal organs) and the others I helped. Not an easy job to do after so much care but I didn't want to put bad quality fish to the lfs and their new owners. Luckily little Forrest is excepted by her step-mom and she will be take care of him :wink: So he will talk abouth you later on,.....my step-mom always said,....life is just like a box of candies,...you never know what you are going to get :lol:


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## Cthulhu

I got them on saturday
I have seen one (male) with the stringy white poo off and on since shortly after I got them 
No clamped fins
They sometimes hang out in the corner, apart and together alternately
they aren't ravenous eaters. I see them eat and occasionally spit.
the female is well sized and the male could stand to do some fattening


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## wantabiggertank

Hi all, I just want to say I am happy to have found this site.

I bought a fish tank, 40 gallons tall from a relative that had just gotten it a month before and decided fish were not for them. It came stocked other than I got rid of an Angel, some odd tetra's and a common pleco, and I bought some corries.

The tank has the following fish

5 fancy male guppies
6(have only seen 4) scarlett badis
5 gold barbs
3 panda corries (soon to be 6)
2 bolivian rams
1 german blue ram
5 bamboo shrimp

I went out and bought an API liquid master test kit and test the tank once a week, so far everything has been fine and stable. I do water changes once a week of about 15-20% and vacuum the gravel, I want the best for the fish in the tank and that is why I am here, first I am not sure if I have male or female rams, and second, I have had the tank for a month now and have seen no improvement in color of the BR's.

I have money to change the tank if necessary, I have been buying live plants two at a time and plan on having it heavily planted, so any advice anyone can give me would be great. Also, does anyone know if I should get a second blue ram or should I post in a different thread?

Thanks in advance


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## cichlidaholic

I don't think we really disagree on the white stringy feces, Ruurd! :lol:

I just thought these particular little Bolivians were new to the poster, and the food change was the first thing that came to mind!

Last night I had the bright idea to scoop out a friend for Forrest...One of his siblings that was the same size in body - without the tail of course. Forrest has obviously settled into his new home and claimed the entire territory, and you should have seen the little battle that followed! He pushed the other perfectly formed ram all over the tank. 

And, of course, my batteries were dead on my camera!

I have a question...

How are the blue rams working out with the Bolivians, wantabiggertank? Are any of them mature and spawning as of yet?

Kim


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## Cthulhu

Last night I was watching them pretty closely and saw that they aren't eating. they aren't thin yet but both could stand to be a little fatter. I dosed the tank with parasite clear (Jungle).

On the plus side however, I think the male is courting the female. he's always following her around and showing off his still smudgy colors.

I think love is in the water


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## Dutch Dude

Cthulhu,.....I think it is a wise thing to treat the fish. So far I didn't detect side effects on Dimetridazole. After the treatment you should do a large partial water change like 50% and I do suggest to add some liquid bacteria as well. For the next two weeks I suggest to do more frequent water changes to keep the water perfect clean. Good quality foods and some frozen will be beneficial for their health as well.

Something all Bolivian owners should know is that most Bolivians spit out foods, pick it up, spit it out and finally eat it. I think the reason for this behaviour is to make the food smaller so they can swallow it easy and the other reason I suspect is to check the food. So if a Bolivian spits out food several times but finally eat it this is not becouse they are ill. Fish with Bloat for example stop eating. They pic foods up, spit it out but don't eat it.

Also,....Bolivians aren't always active. They can hang (and float) around in their territory. This is totally different to fish with Bloat. Often they display a fast breathing rate, clamped fins (especially the tail) and laying on the substrate.



> I think the male is courting the female. he's always following her around and showing off his still smudgy colors.


His colors will gain in time. They first have to settle and need some good care. The behaviour of the male is indeed promising but time will tel.

Wantabiggertank,....welcome to the BRC! I suspect both Bolivians to be females. For the Rams I'd suggest a couple as well. Seeing your stock list I do think your tank is fully stocked after that.

For wc I suggest to do larger partial changes like 30% to 40% each week. Bolivians aren't that picky at water quality but Rams are! They need very clean water and have abouth the same demanding as Discus. So not an easy specie! I noticed you got gravel with a large grain size. It looks nice but you need to vacuum it very good becouse dirt can easily get trapped in the pockets between the grains and leading to all sort of troubles like cyanobacteria. For a planted tank larger gravel is not recommended. I prefer very small grain gravel (1/10 inch grain size) or sand with a good quality plant substrate or work with fertilizer tablets or clay balls close to the roots. Are you planing a CO2 system?

What species of plants are in there? Echinodorus horisontalis? Myrophyllum? Egeria?

To be honest,....I would definitely change the substrate!

Kim,....


> I don't think we really disagree on the white stringy feces, Ruurd!


 Oooh,..OK :lol: I responded to the illness board abouth the post of Cthulhu,....so see you there?

Aaaaah how sweet,...you gave little Forrest a room mate! Unfortunately he doesn't like him but after some quarreling and some drinks the both will be fine.


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## Cthulhu

the instructions on the parasite clear say to wait 48 hours, then do a wc (25%) and treat again (up to 3 total treatments)

are you saying I should do the water changes daily? I would think that would reduce the effacy of the medication. But, I've been wrong b4.


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## wantabiggertank

Thanks everyone for you help. Having two female BR would it be wise to get a male or leave good enough alone? They all three seem to get along well. As for the Blue Ram, I will have to see if I can find another one at a lfs soon. Thanks again.

Substrate change, first, what do you recommend I change to that will be good for the fish and good for the plants? Also, how do I change the substrate without hurting the fish? I think that a sand or fine gravel would look a lot better.

I have no idea what the plants are, they came with the tank, I know one is a fern or some type.

I will do 30-40% water changes for now on, I really didn't know I needed to do that much.

Thanks again everyone, I am so new to this but must say I am already hooked, I want the best for my fish and I already want a bigger tank.


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## wantabiggertank

Sorry for the double post, not sure how to edit my last post.

Here are my questions, I will be going to the LFS tomorrow.

I am getting a second filter, any certain kind better than the other?
What kind of sand and what color is best?
What type of sand is best for live plants?
What kind of live plants to buy?
How do I change the substrate without hurting or stressing the fish? The scarlett badis are very small, about 1/2" is all and the bamboo shrimp don't swim, they just run around the bottom of the tank.

Thanks again everyone, your help is much appreciated.


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## Cthulhu

Last night The male had a brief "Episode". He sort of stopped moving, sank slightly, clamped his fins and started wriggling about. it kinda looked like he was rubbing the side of his face in the substrate.

He acted like that for only about 30 seconds that I saw. I didn't see either ram eat last night either.


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## Dutch Dude

Cthulhu,....They sometimes do that when something is iching. This can be of small water bugs. If he did this only once I would not be woried but keep an eye on it. The meds need time to kill the flagellates.

I suggest to do a 50% wc *after* the 2 day's of meds. If they aren't cured do a new dose of meds (see prescription) and cure for an other 2 day's and do an other 50% wc. If necessary a new dose of meds and again a 50% wc. If they still aren't cured after 6 day's you can consider to stop the treatment. So basically you can handle like the prescription only increase the wc from 25% to 50%. This should keep the tank clean. Are they in a quarantine tank? If not,....are their tankmates?

Wantabigertank,.......I do suggest to return one of the females (the one with stress spots) and get a new male so you will have a pair. Same for the GBR,.....I recommend a pair (male and female).

For substrate I do suggest sand. This display natural but the big plus of sand is that the fish can sift it like their big relatives Geophagus. So best is sand but small gravel (grain size 1/10 inch) would do. For sand I suggest river sand or pool filter sand. Keep in mind that sand with sharp edges can damage their gills during sifting and that the sand doesn't effect the PH so no beach sand!!! The color is up to you and what you prefer. The fish don't mind.

As for the substrate change,.....is there a possibility to split the tank (filter foam tank divider). If not,...is there a temporary home for the fish? If you can split the tank you can do a substrate change at one side while the fish are in the other side. If your done move the fish over and do the other half. Best would be to catch the fish and put them in a temporary home for several hours. This can be a bucket but I do suggest to keep the temp right with a heater! When you put in the new substrate I suggest to wait an hour and do a large wc of abouth 50% to get ride of the dirt that is caught in the current gravel. You may need to do an other wc 2 or 3 day's later and go back to the normal routine of 30% to 40% a week.

The wc of 30% to 40% takes out lots of waste and reduces nitrates. This keeps the tank clean and thats realy necessary for the Rams.

Abouth filtration,....there are so many diferent types brands and systems I cant point you to one or two. Personally I prefer canisters for smaller tanks. Eheim is a good brand but quit expensive. Marineland would be a good alternative! Maybe you can put this particular question in the equipment board and get the advice of more people. I would first do that and when you have chosen a type and brand to buy one. I understand your very enthusiastic but with equipment that is expensive and important you might want to do some good investigation before buying one.

Abouth the plants,.....you already got some nice once so maybe you won't need to buy more and give it time so the plants can grow.

All above is my opinion and other people may have diferent ideas or methods. Look for info, put posts on several folders / boards and you will get plenty of info. This is one part of the fun of a new set up. Please take your time to gather all the necessary info.

You can check Equipment and supplies, Tank setup and Aquarium decoration boards as well.


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## Cthulhu

I don't have a qt tank, just the one show tank they now share with 3 swords (1m 2f), an angel and a small dojo loach I'm looking to rehome.
about the dosing/ wcs: good, I just wanted to make sure we're on the same page. I do like the idea of doing a larger water change between doses. that wc and dose are scheduled to go down tonight when I get home from work.


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## Dutch Dude

OK no delicate species so you should be fine. Keep an eye on nitrite though!


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## wantabiggertank

Dutch Dude thanks so much for all your help. I am going to the lfs tomorrow to get everything set up and everyone happy.


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## Dutch Dude

Wantabigertank,..... :lol: your are realy entusiastas don't you? I did suggest to check some more opinions and gather a bit more info but probably this takes to long :wink: :lol:

Sooo,....I'm curious what you will buy today


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## wantabiggertank

Not buying a filter yet, I am still researching that. I plan one exchanging the female bolivian with stress spots for a male, I also plan on trying to find a female blue ram, Getting either sand or very, very fine gravel, and some more hiding places for all the fish. That is on my to do list this weekend.


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## Dutch Dude

Aaah OK,.....that sounds like a good plan to switch out one female for a male and get a second Ram as well.

To me the best hiding places are nice pieces of driftwood. They don't have to be huge and smaller pieces can be put together or divide the floorspace in several parts. This way you can create several territories.

Wise to do some research on the filters. Lots of possibilities in a wide price range. Imo it is nice to take a oversizes filter that can be adjust in flow so you can adjust it to your tank. In the US most filters are already oversize if it comes to flow. In Europe we use larger amounts of filter media with a lower flow. Abouth 2 to 3 times turn over an hour is normal over here. But like I already told,....lots and lots of possibilities, systems, brands and opinions. Have much fun during the process of research.


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## Cthulhu

My BRs are still alive. I have to imagine they're eating when I'm not around/ the lights are off because they don't have sunken bellies and I've had them for just over a week. I gave the last dose of parasite clear on sunday evening.

I didn't see them eating or pooing over the weekend but then again I didn't get much chance to watch them. I guess I'll just have to wait and see.


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## pmisery

After reading Blair's sexing guide which is very good and with Kim's input too I think I have two females. There were paired up at the LFS which made me and the attendant think they were paired. He made them scatter and they paired back up with each other. So here are the pics, please guess away. I might have to wait until they get a little bit more unstressed and social.

This is thought to be a female she has her vent pointed kind of down.









This is the best picture of the other one for now. I will try to take some more later.










But they both have females shaped heads, however on the second fish, it's tail fins are very elongated whereas the other fish has the shorter female tail.

They are becoming more social, so I will try and snap some more pics.

Thanks.

More pics.


























The unknown fisy, hopefully the male.


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## Dutch Dude

Cthulhu,...good to hear the Bolivians are still alive. maybe you can feed some frozen and check if they eat it. Most fish are eager to feed the frozen. Did they become more active now and how abouth fin clamping?

pmisery,.....the first pic confirms my suspicion of the female. Sorry but the pics of the second fish aren't clear enough to see the vent so I can't sex it based on these pics. The body shape resembles a female but as long as I can't see the vent I can't confirm. Who is in charge,...the one with the black dots or the female?


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## Cthulhu

I haven't seen any more fin clamping Though I'm beginnning to suspect more and more that I have two males. I suppose only time will tell. they are more active. The alternate between swimming closely together and hanging out in opposite corners. sometimes they nip at eachother but it doesn't seem particularly agressive, like they play occasionally. and I often see them hovering together facing eachother.


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## MFielding

pmisery,

I'm thinking you have a male and a female. I am just going off your descrtption of the "males" tail, and the pic that seems to show an elongated dorsal fin ray just two or three rays back. These are just a couple things that seem to be true with my Rams. I am no expert by any means and may be completely wrong.


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## Dutch Dude

Cthulhu,....good to hear they aren't clamping and are OK so far. I do suggest to take a close eye on the water quality and keep is spotless clean for the next couple of weeks. They also need some extra care on food and 2 or 3 times a week frozen or live would be great. If they gain in health you could reduce the number of frozen feedings. Make sure you got some high quality foods with lots of vitamins. Also keep the stress levels low. Don't change the tank for the next couple of weeks or add any new fish. After 4 weeks you can go to normal care again. By that time they should be healthy again.

Mfielding,....Most reliable sexing is to look at the vents. Unfortunately the pics are blurry and the vent isn't visible at fish number 2.


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## Cthulhu

This morning I saw one of them clamping again. he stopped shorthly there after. either way I'm going to stop by the lfs on my way home from work and pick of some frozen bloodworms. I'm sure the swords won't have any complaints


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## MFielding

Most times I can only tell which is which by watching them spawn. The one the eggs come out of is the female.  During spawning, it is easy to see the vents, and pretty easy to tell the difference, I would agree.


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## Dutch Dude

Cthulhu,.....hmmm,....so one of the fish starts clamping again! How does his poo look like? Is he eating? Was it only one short clamping or did he do it more often? I would keep a close eye on him! Swords are sword tail livebearers? If so they definitely need a lot of vegetable mater in their diet.

MFielding,....


> Most times I can only tell which is which by watching them spawn. The one the eggs come out of is the female.


 :lol: :lol: That's definitely the most reliable!



> During spawning, it is easy to see the vents, and pretty easy to tell the difference


 That's for sure and the vents of females are more pronouncing just before , during and a couple of day's after spawning.


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## Cthulhu

yea, the mostly get algae disks with supplimented flake and anything else they can steal from the rams or angel.

but you were right about the bloodworms they went nuts. everyone. one of my swords started guarding a heavily en bloodwormed area so I threw in an extra to make sure the rams got some

Still havent seen them pooing and haven't seen any clamping since the last time. but then again, I spend most of my day at work.

The one that I think is male wasn't eating much but the female became much more active.


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## TabMorte

Okay in my 29 long we've decided to go with Bolivian Rams but I have some questions and I've been sifting through this thread but holy 66 pages!

So questions!

Tank Mates:

I have three Black Skirts that have gotten a bit too large for thier 10G and would probably like some buddies would they be okay tank mates for the BRs or should I go with something smaller like a cardinal/rummynose? Any other good tank mates for BRs? I'm trying to keep the tank as south america as possible with the exception of a couple ottos because I think they'd be better clean up crew then cories with the BRs.

Filter:

I've got a biowheel 150, that sufficent or should I look at upgrading to the 200?

Substrate:

Will sand be that much better then gravel? Pool sand or play sand? Does it make much differance for them?

Picking out the fish:

And when I go to pick out my fish what should I look for? What's my target size range to get them at the ideal age? I'm thinking about going with two pairs if I can sex them accurately, is it best to get them all at once or get a pair let them settle and bring in another pair later? Or would it be best to get 1 male and three females and let him have his pick (though will the remaining ones be able to stay in the tank if I go that route?)


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## Dutch Dude

> I've been sifting through this thread but holy 66 pages!


 :lol: yes it would take you abouth a week to reed it, haha!

Black skirts are fine as tank mates. You can go for almost every tetra (except for the fin nibbling species), pleco's and cories (can eat eggs dough), loricarids, oto's and more peaceful smaler fish. The tank is a bit to small for other cichlids or a larger number of Bolivians. The volume will do for 4 Bolivians but the footprint is probably to small.

A nice stock would be the 3 black skirts, a pair of Bolivians, 5 oto's and 10 small tetras (or increase the number of black skirts to a total of 8)

The filter,.....well I don't have experience on this type so I can't comment on that.

Sand is the best substrate for BR. They can and will sift it just like their big relatives Geophagus. They also dig pits in it during spawning. Pool filter sand and play sand will both be fine. Make sure you rinse the play sand very well so all the small sand particles will wash away. If you don't rinse it well your tank will be cloudy for a long long time. Small gravel (grain size maximum 1/10 inch) will also be OK but the sand is realy the best substrate.

When you select the fish you need to watch them closely and check the batch in the shop for a while. A lot of bad quality deformed fish come from SE Asia. Most common deformities are, short high body, bended spine, deformed paired fins, mouth to low on the face or enlarged lips, to blunt head shape. Your best bet at a pair is to buy 6 youngsters and wait until they pair up. Once they do you can select the pair and take the other back to the lfs. Keep in mind that your tank is much to small for 6 adults! Best quality BR's are the once from local breeders or other people in the hobby!!!


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## TabMorte

Yeah my local Big Als actually gets thiers bred by one of their employees so I know they're locally bred at least (though where's the origional stock is from I can't say). I had considered a 33 L but unfortunitly I don't have the room for one, it's just 3 inches too long for the space I've allotted for the tank which is a pity as I hear the Rams are best kept in larger groups.

That's roughly what I was thinking for the tank to start.

My plan was something like:

1 pair of rams, 5 ottos, 6 black skirts and 6 rummy nose or glow lights tetras.

That way we'll get some pretty decent schooling and color.


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## edburress

If you have a good selection to choose from, I would look for a female that looks strong and has some attitude so she can look after herself between spawns, when the male can become bothersome. In contrast, I would look for a nice calm male.

Maybe someone can post a link to Blairs sexing guide for you, but I have no idea where it is.

Be sure and post pictures when you get them :thumb:

Ed


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## TabMorte

Of course I will!

But it won't be for a few months. We're picking up the new tank tonight and there's still cycling to be done.

I'm planning to pull the old filter off my 10G and throw that on there to help things move along more quickly but it'll still be a while unless I can find some biospira.

Is it better for me to put the tetras in first or the rams first? Does it matter with rams? Usually with my little tanks I go peaceful fish first then more aggressive ones.


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## pmisery

What sort of bottom fish, like corys will go ok with BR's? I am looking for a ground crew to do some cleanup.


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## Dutch Dude

Tabmorte,....always good to get a hold of some local breed fish!!! This still isn't a warranty you will get good fish but at least they are not treated with hormones and lots of meds. Still keep your eyes open for the deformities.

Ed did a very good suggestion to select a female with a lot of personality and a more calm male. I never had issues with territorial males but I always kept Bolivians in small groups and I suspect them to be more tolerant.

I checked for Blair his sexing quid but could not find it. I did find our article abouth Bolivians and here the link.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/m ... sa_pt2.php

If I remember it correctly the sexing article is added here abouth 5 pages ago.

Your suggested fish list sounds fine by me. You don't realy need a bottom fish for cleaning becouse the Oto's will clean this as well (during night). If you do like some you could add cories, small (up to 5 inch) pleco like a bristelnose, or Loricarids / rineloricarids like the Rineloricara filamentosa. Keep in mind that all coridoras feed on eggs and wigglers just like pleco's and even the rineloricarids.

For the fish it makes no diference witch one goes in first. For a more smooth cycling I would suggest to start with the 3 blackskirts, if all goes well a week later the other tetras and 2 weeks later the rams and the oto's. Normally I suggest to start with algae eating fish but Oto's are a bit more delicate when they are introduced in a new tank. Once they are established they are quit hardy.

Every time you add fish there will be some stress and new territories have to be established. Considering your fish list I don't expect problems.


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## TabMorte

The black skirts I imagine will be THRILLED get to their new home. They're huge! I got them only a year ago as little guys and they survived my inadvertant fish in cycle and everything and the two largest are bigger then tonnies now, and the smaller's rapidly catching up. I'm a bit concerned when I get them some buddies they might eat their new friends so yeah that's probably a good idea. I'll put them in and then give them some more black skirts and let them settle their school out first.

Playsand is in the tank now, I'm a bit annoyed they didn't have the pool filter sand which would have looked a little more uniform BUT I think that the play sand will ultimately be a bit more natural looking. Hopefully it will settle out so I can start adding Ammonia tonight.


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## Dutch Dude

I suggested the blackskirts are first fish to introduce becouse I asume they are in a good health and are quit tolerant if it comes to water quality.



> I'm a bit concerned when I get them some buddies they might eat their new friends


 I may assume a 1.5 inch tetra don't fit their mouth right?

Play sand should be fine but the negative side is all the dust sand that is in it. If you rinsed it well most of it is probably washed away. I mix some very fine gravel with the sand (only one hand on a bucket of sand) to give it a more natural look.


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## TabMorte

Yeah I have learned already when you think your sand is rinced enough to need to rinse it some more. The dust doesn't wanna settle in the tank. I've drained and refilled a few times to clear out some of the access. Eventually I'll just have to let it sit I guess.

And no I don't think they could literally eat them but I'll have to keep an eye out for any weird aggression. I supose if they pick on the little guys the little guys can go in the 10G though until they grow up a bit.

And the three I have are in very good health yes. I think they'll be able to handle any initial water quality issues. I'm trying to get my hands on some biospira so we can quick cycle the tank. I would run my new filter on the 10 to pick up some bacteria but I think a penguin 200 would blow away my poor fishes.


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## pmisery

So I think I have two females, so I added a male. His vent was small and aiming backwards, should be a male. For a bit two of them were trying to bite each others lips, is that a sign of courting?

A picture of him is in this link. It is the only gallery I have there.

http://picasaweb.google.com/pat.mcsomething


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## Dutch Dude

TabMorte,.....depending on the thickness of the layer of sand it can take several day's for the fine dust to settle and give more as a week some fog effect in the water. I fill half a bucket with sand, fill it with water, turn it around with my hand and let the water run out (be careful not to let the sand run out) and I repeat this 20 times with the same sand!!! I use river sand (from a Dutch river named Maas) with is quit close to play sand.

When you put the sand in and filled the tank you need put in the heater and connect the filter and let it run for a week. Best would be to use an established filter or add some liquid bacteria or use quit large amounts of water from an established tank. At the end of the week you can do a 50% water change. A week after that you can do the same, measure the water prams (or let them check at the lfs) to see if there is ammonia or nitrite. If so your tank needs more time to cycle. When the tank is through the first process of cycling (usually abouth 3 to 4 weeks) and no ammonia or nitrite is measured you can put in the first fish (usually algae eating fish) and in your case the black skirts. Every time you add fish the tank goes through a mini cycle so keep an eye on the prams!

The sand needs to settle right now so I suggest not to do water changes all the time. Eventually it will clear up. If you have your doubts abouth the sand rinsing you can take it out and rinse it more and put it back in. Make sure you turn out the filter when you remove the sand or add the sand!!!

I never kept black skirts but I expect them to be fine with smaller tetras especially when they are in a larger tank.

Pmisery,.....lip lock is to determine who is in charge. This can occur between males, females and couples. If a male and female lip lock for a longer period there is quit a large change the both will be partners in future. If fish from the same sex lip lock it is to determine who is the strongest and in charge. This is normal behaviour and in new set ups and new introduced fish it is done more often becouse the fish have to establish territories and a hierarchy


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## pmisery

The bigger one of the 3 seems to be the aggressor of the tank. The two smaller ones are swimming near each other and hope fully courting each other. I will try and get some video of this and post it to You Tube.


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## TravisLovett

Haha so wow, I've been trying to sift through this thing and right now I think I've read 30% of it.

Lots of information here, and my interest has definitely been sparked! I currently have a 55 gallon aquarium that I want set up as a SA community.

I have only a few obstacles....

1. I have no experience in live plants. What plants should I start out with? Are live plants a must for BR?
2. What would be a good colony for a 55g? Should I go with 1 male and 4 females or make two seperate pairs?
3. I also like apistos, could I have a pair in with the rams?
4. Could Dwarf pikes play a role in this aquarium some how?

In doing this aquarium I know I'd like to have Neon Tetras and some dwarf Corys in the community I suppose the only variable would be the Rams, Apistos, and Dwarf Pikes. Im kinda nervous in starting this project because I have no experience with any of these fish. What can I say though, 66 pages of interest has to mean something.

P.S. My goal is to have this tank cycled and ready for the 2008 ACA show in Atlanta in mid July.


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## Dutch Dude

Travis,.....it is obvious you want an interesting and diferent tank apart from all the others for the ACA show. Unfortunately your not experienced with plants! I do suggest to gather info on plants as well. I can point you at some easy species but they would be from all over the world and very common and not special.

You like the Bolivians, Apisto's, Pikes and tetras as well as corydoras. This mix isn't possible becouse of the size of the tank and mainly the behaviour of the Pikes. Your new in SA cichlids and experienced in Africans? If so,....a SA cichlid need much more space as Africans!!!

I want to do a suggestion towards a fish list and set up. I suggest a Bolivia biotope tank.

The fish list could be:
- 1 male 1 female Bolivian
- 1 male 2 female Apistogramma Agassizii *OR* A. Trifasciata
- 8 Nannostonnis trifasciatus
- 12 coridoras hastatus (dwarf corydoras and swim and school just like tetras)

All the mentioned fish are from Bolivia,...and yes,....the A. Agassizii occurs also in Bolivia http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/p ... 1141114726 (go with navigation to Bolivia)

Interesting plants would be Echinodorus Bolivianus (grass like and grows up to 4-5 inch), E. Bleheri and E. parviflorus, Mentioned species are not to difficult but need nutrition at the root system. You could use a plant substrate (I prefer clay based) or push plant growth tabs deep in the sand between the roots. I'm not sure the last 2 mentioned Echinodorus are from Bolivia or not but info abouth the origin of the plants are very hard to find. E. Bolivianus is definitely from Bolivia, E. parviflorus from Peru but also could occur in Bolivia. Maybe someone on the plant forum can help you with that.

I would definitely go for a sand substrate mixed with a few hands of small gravel. make sure you create at least 4 caves for the Apistogramma. PVC tubes would do just like small flowerpots are coconut shells. You could cover it up with plants driftwood or stones. I would also put in quit some driftwood. So,...what do you think?

As for the dwarf pike,.....not a good mix with tetras and small corydoras and female Apisto's. They would do much better with mid sized cichlids and large high bodied tetras like blackskirt. As for the plants,.....Bolivians don't have problems with fake plants but pleas if you add them take some good quality that resembles the real once a bit. I prefer the real plants!


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## TravisLovett

Which of the mentioned species would help keep algae in check? Or would that be mainly my job? I deal with algae growing on the glass of my african tanks, but in a planted tank will algae attach itself to the plants? I think I am going to go with just Bolivians and skip on the apistos seeing as the BR is what made me want to start this project to begin with. Also what do you mean by a clay based substate? I was planning on using Pool Filter sand, what would I have to do to it to make it grow plants? Also I am unsure about lighting.......I guess I got some reading to do ha!


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## Dutch Dude

> Which of the mentioned species would help keep algae in check?


 Correct me if I'm wrong but don't Nannostonnis eat algae to? You can always add a small Loricarid specie. If not,....it will be your job indeed!

The water for Africans is much harder and contain more calcium and for that algae will grow faster. Besides that you probably use lights with a high blue spectrum and this also increases algae growth. Probably nitrate is high to becouse of the high stock levels of the average African tank. Yes, if algae grow in a tank they also grow on leaves of plants. M ore algae grow on old leaves or bad leaves of plants that do poor.

A clay based plant substrate is mostly a mix of sand, clay, minerals and a small amount of peat. This contains all the nutrients plants like Echinodorus need. On top of the plant substrate you put a layer of normal substrate like sand or very fine gravel. You can do without a plant substrate but do need to put the fertilizer tabs into the substrate right between the roots of the plants.

Best lighting for a planted tank are tube lights with a high red / orange spectrum and a low UV spectrum and limited blue. I have good success with the Philips color 830 and color 840.

I think you have to do a awful lot of reading abouth SA cichlids and their needs and plants as well. This will be completely diferent compared to the Africans!!!

If you skip the apisto's you can put 5 Bolivians in there. I suggest 2 male and 3 female.


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## curt_914

Hey guys I thought I would give you an update!! 
I am going to be ordering a Eheim 2217 canister filter. My substraights are on the way And I am soaking the wood. If all goes as planed you should see an update with Pics in about 3 weeks on the 55 gallon!!

I havent had any more eggs since the clutch about 2 months ago. I also got the Chineese algea eater out of the tank. Ever since I took out the CAE the rams have been very reclusive and hidding a lot. They are still eating and come out when they think no one is watching.

Hope all is well,
Curt


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## Dutch Dude

Curt,...great to hear and pleas keep us posted :thumb: Eheim is expensive but very reliable and parts are very long available (some over 25 years!). So a good choice!

HUH,....your Bolivians act shy????? Are there other tank inhabitants like tetras?

Travis,.....to give you an idea on a planted Bolivian tank,....








[/quote]


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## curt_914

Yea they are being shy. I think it has something to do with chaseing the AE around the tank. Right now only a set of 5 panda cories but I will have some tetras in the 55. I found a good deal on the 2217 for big als. And the rena XP2 is going on the 20 gallon tank. But I will keep you all posted.

Curt


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## TravisLovett

I do have experience with Africans, Central Americans, and South Americans such as Oscars, Pikes, Severums, Peacock Bass, and Festae. These Dwarves are just new for me. So I have read about this eco-complete substrate. Would I just put this under my Pool Filter Sand? Then plant some easy to keep plants into the mixture? Do you churn the sand in these aquariums as you would any other sand bed?

Here is a stocking list I am thinking of.

5 Bolivian Rams
12 Neon Tetras
some Otos
a couple of nice small plecos

I have an Emperor 400, would this work as filtration? Or would the current be a little to much?

Here are some simple plants that I am thinking of.

Java Fern
Java Moss
Lace Jave Fern
Guppy Grass 
Hornwart
Anubias sp.
Crytocoryne sp.

I know they may not be from the same area (plants and fish) but this is what I am wanting. What do you guys think?


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## pmisery

My BR's are acting like they do not like each other. So from my point of view, based on the vents i have two females and one male. The male is the smallest of the three and he hangs out on the other side of the tank. The biggest female has one corner of the tank. The other female seems like she goes back and forth but I am not sure. The biggest one is the most aggressive though. Is that behavior normal when they are introduced? When should I see the male pick at mate? He has been in there since Saturday. I still have not seen them eat. I drop flakes in the morning while the lights are still off. Should I change the timer to have the lights on before I feed them?


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## edburress

pmisery....my bolivians took 4-6 weeks to pair themselves, and roughly 3 months before they spawned. Now both pairs breed regularly and do not switch partners. So I would give them time to form a pair. About the feeding, I would make sure the food readily sinks. Mine eat flakes and will feed from the surface, but for the first months they would only eat sinking pellets (mostly from the substrate) until they got settled in. Now they eat anything that hits the water.

Ed


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## Dutch Dude

Curt,....Bolivians should not be shy and greet you when your close to the tank.

Travis,.....sorry,...I thought your into Africans but i made the wrong assumption. All the fish you mentioned are the somewhat larger fish that dig and probably most of then destroy a planted set up in a short period of time. Most dwarf cichlids are good suitable for community set ups and planted tanks. So this will be a new adventure for you in the hobby.

Abouth the substrate,....over here we use diferent brands and diferent types so I can not give you proper info on brands. The eco-complete substrate sounds to me like a soil type of plant substrate. Not my favorite type becouse of decaying over time. On the site of Dennerle (German brand) you can find lots of info on the new European philosophy on planted tanks and their range of products. Unfortunately it is not available (jet) on the US market. Maybe available by on-line shop. Their philosophy is quit diferent compared to the common philosophy but for me it works. I hope you enjoy the info on the site and I hope this will contribute to your knowledge on algae growth and planted tanks. Here the link http://www.dennerle.de/EN/

Your stock list sounds OK and a nice choice! Oto's do best in groups of 5 or more. In a 55 gallon you can do with only one small (4-5 inch) pleco.

Your plant list is fine but I have negative experiences with the javamos. Dirt get easily trapped and can cause problems. So if you want to add it make sure you clean it every partial water change or,....add some shrimps! I have know idea what guppy grass is so I can't comment on that. Egeria Densa is an other very easy plant that takes out a lot of nitrates and produces lots of oxygen.

I can comment on the Emperor becouse we don't have it over here but to me 400 gph sounds a awful lot on a 55 gallon tank,....especially on a planted! You don't want to bring in to much oxygen and lose most of the CO2. Over here 2 to 4 times turn over is common.

Pmisery,.....when Bolivians are introduced in a new environment they do need some time to establish territories and to sort out who is in charge. So for that it is normal behavior they quarrel a lot right now. Over time this will reduce but quarreling is quit normal behaviour. Give them at least a month to sort things out. I'm surprised the male is the smallest one! The larger fish is the strongest so that one will take charge. Eventually the male will be in charge. Sometimes Bolivians pair up after a week or so and in some cases it will never happen. They do need some time and during spawning they can switch partners becouse mom or dad turn out to be a lousy parent.

You need to feed the fish with the lights on for at least 15 minutes!!!


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## Cthulhu

I lost one of my rams last night. It was the one I suspected to be male. I'll keep a close eye on the female (might be male) she is significantly more active than the male was.

I think I jumped the gun on naming them (Westly and Buttercup) bad luck I suppose. well, bad luck and parasites I suppose.


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## Dutch Dude

sorry double post


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## Dutch Dude

To all members of the BRC,......we made a total of 1001 replies in this treat  :thumb:


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## Dutch Dude

Cthulhu,...sorry to hear abouth the los  This was the one who clamped his fins? Unfortunately he didn't get cured of the internal parasites. How is the female doing right now? I would wait a few weeks and get a new male,...unless the female shows also signs of the internal parasites.


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## Cthulhu

Yea, it was the male who was clamping. the female still looks fairly healthy. I'd like to see her fatter and she's still smudgie.

I've put my tank on a two week quarantine to avoid introducing any new parasites.

as a side note. my two female swords look pregnant. am I correct to assume that the fry will be a good, possibly stress reducing treat? I don't intend to try to breed the swords but I would like them to provide diet suppliments. Wow, that sounds kinda mean when you write it out lke that. cycle of life

Does anyone know where I might be able to pick up a healthy male in a few weeks? I'm in southern CA.

Hopefully by then I'll have dropped Time warner cable and get an ISP that works the way it should. If that's the case I'll post pics of my female to get another opinion on her sex (as I said in an earlier post I'm becoming less and less sure that I sexed them properly.)


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## Dutch Dude

A good idea to put the tank in quarantine for the next couple of weeks. This time you can spend on arranging a new male and to keep a close eye on the female. It will take time for her to fatten up and to gain in color.

Aaaah you got the sword tails for live food? That's a good idea but I have difficulties of looking at fish that snack on other baby fish. kind of sad,..but it is live cycle indeed. I have know idea if this will help reduce stress but she will be busy hunting down the live food (baby sword tail) and fatten up at the same time :wink:


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## Cthulhu

It's not why I got the swords, I just like how they look in the tank. I've had them for a while but the females never looked pregnant before.

I don't have a grow out tank so I can't try to raise them for sale.


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## Dutch Dude

:lol: So this wasn't part of your plans. Well,...most female live bearers are pregnant for most of the time :wink: If the fry stay at the top level of the tank some of them may grow up!


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## Cthulhu

only since introducing the rams have the swords shown any signs of pregnancy. The first female looked pretty chubby when I got her but the stress of the trip home caused her to miscarry.
since then, nothing... until recently


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## Dutch Dude

Well always nice to see some fry swimming around. Lets hope they don't end up as snacks for the Bolivians.


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## t0p_sh0tta

How fitting. I was doing some tank maintenance today and came across ~30 free swimming fry!

I do have a problem though. The tank has been set up for about 5-6 weeks (since the cycle was complete). I have the normal brown algae outbreak, but I also have what I believe are hydra attached to the glass. From what I've read, they are likely due to over feeding. I would like to scrape the glass, but how would I remove the hydra from the water?

The tentacles on these don't resemble hydra IMO, as they are all very uniform, and the only movement that I've observed is from water movement. They look similar to umbrellas that have turned inside out.

What should I do?

-Lamar

edit: I am sure they're not hydra. They look almost identical to these.


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## Dutch Dude

At first congratulations on the fry!!!

Hydra's,....well I have experience with them :? Hydra's are named after a myth abouth a monster with 10 heads. The problem with hydra's is that they have 3 way's to multiply. By seed in the water, splitting up cells and a baby is born on the foot of the hydra and next is that parts of the hydra can grow out to complete new hydra's. So when you scrape of the hydra's and they are broken into 3 parts, those parts probably will grow out to 3 new hydra's. Well,....probably your not to happy to hear this but don't worry!!! You can control the growth of the hyda's a bit by not overfeeding! An other reason can be an explosion of microorganismes in the water witch is quit normal in a new set up. When the tank is stable the micro organisms will reduce in number and become stable. And the only thing that kills hydra's is a med named Flubendazole 5%. This med is used for worm treatment and available with the vet and in some country's also in the lfs. Flubendazole melts the Hydra's but it can also kill snails and elephant fish. Flubendazole is a mild med that is quit save to use. The only problem is you got some small fry! I don't know how many hydra's you got and what type. The most common are the small green once of abouth half an inch. They don't be a treat to your fry. The larger types (white, gray) can grow over an inch and do feed on fry as well. If you have the small (green) type I suggest to wait a couple of weeks so the fry are a bit larger and can handle more. If you got a real explosion you could treat them with the Flubendazole but keep in mind that there is a chance this can effect the fry.

Flubendazole is available in a solution (liquid) but this type can't be stored for a long time and will lose strength. The powder would be the best choice. Before you put in the meds you need to do a large water change of abouth 40%. You can take a cup of tank water and add the powder. A dose of 100mg / liter = 26 mg / gallon is quit save to use and effective on killing the hydra's. If you have water with a KH of 2 or lower you need to add the meds over a longer time span (several hours). Mix the powder in the cup well. That's not easy with Flubendazole becouse it doesnt solute that well in water. When it is mixed you can spread it over the tank water surface. You need to create enough water movement on the surface and if possible add an air stone. After 48 Hours I suggest to add 25 mg / liter = 7 mg / gallon to the tank. after 5 day's all the hydra's should be melted and reduced to a dot on the glass or completely gone. You can do a large water change again and preferable add some liquid bacteria to the tank. The flubendazole will kill some of the bacteria in the filter and also kills some of the micro organisms (worms and shrimp related creatures) as well as snails. This can cause a mini cycle becouse of increased waist levels and reduced bacteria. I have never had problems with adding the flubendazole whether it was for worm treatment or killing hydra's. I also suggest to hear other opinions on the illness board.


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## DrewWoodside

Hey guys, not to jump off topic too much but.. I just got myself a bolivian ram and i introduced him a bit early in the cycle period.. Day 2. I was inpatient I know. For a while he would just run up and down the 29 gallon standard but he's finally settling down today. He's still showing minimal color but his fins look find and his curiosity has increased. I've been putting some flake food in and he keeps sampling it but then spitting it back out. Do these rams eat flakes? Or is he still just being finicky due to a new situation/tank setting. Thanks for any help and I hope he pulls through!


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## t0p_sh0tta

Thanks for the advice Dutch Dude. I am going to confirm that these are infact hydra before I take action.

Drew, it's normal. My rams like to play with their food and sift through the substrate for it. Sometimes they play with the flakes to break them up into smaller pieces. If you use a sand substrate, give the NLS (New Life Spectrum) pellets a try. They're tiny and my rams love foraging for them.


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## DrewWoodside

Ok, I couldn't tell for sure. Thanks a lot


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## Dutch Dude

Top-shotta,....here a link to a pic with the common green hydra. As you can see a new hydra is growing on the foot of the adult.

http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=h ... 9%26sa%3DN

Drew,....Bolivians can be picky at new foods. Sometimes you have to be more persistent and after a few times spitting is out they mostly feed on it. Bolivians also chew on the foods, spit it out and pic up the small particles and eat it. Flakes are fine but I suggest also to feed a good quality sinking pellet like discus pellets or the mentioned smaller NLS pellets. Every once in a while some frozen or live foods keeps the fish healthy to and stimulate spawning.

Bolivians need some time to get used to their new home. This can take one or 2 weeks. When they are used to their new home and they get the foods they need they will gain in color. This will need time dough.


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## ElPorcoRoso

Hi all,

I recently bought my third BR, and after a few weeks she has clearly paired with my dominant male. They have staked out some territory and have been displaying some unusual behavior. Some of it seems (based on what *** read in this forum) like spawing behavior and some of it Im just not sure whats going on:

Theyve been pecking around a rock and the female has been brushing her belly along it as though she were laying eggs but I dont see anything. Then she turns around and pecks at where she touched. The male will peck around too and they both seem to be shaking their heads and shuddering. .. oh score, wait I just looked and theres a pile of white eggs, n/m!


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## Dutch Dude

This is definitely spawning behaviour!!! The female is practicing to lay eggs and the picking at the stone surface is cleaning the stone. It can't be long before they spawn. Did they already dig some pits? I do suggest to feed some frozen like Artemis or bloodworms. Females need some extra protein for the spawn. A few day's of feeding some frozen and a water change after that will trigger spawning.


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## ElPorcoRoso

HI Dutchdude,

Well as I was typing she must have dropped her eggs because I looked over and there was a sheet of white eggs on a rock.










The male is still making passes over the eggs. The female on the other hand seems to be standing guard. She has a weird expression on her face, her lips look pursed together. She is doing a good job of keeping the other fish away.

I have two small bristlenosed catfish in my tank, are they known to be egg eaters? Should I be concerned about my glowlight tetras?

Im so happy!


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## Cichlidfied

Hello everybody. I've read up to page 40 already. I decided to go ahead and post a pic of my BR tank. I'm adding the tank in my profile for the specs and all. Y'all gotta have a lil patience though. It takes a few days for that to post.


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## curt_914

Hey guys Looks Like 2 weeks to a new home!! Substraight will be here tomorrow and tuesday. Drift wood is soaking, and I will have plants in 2 weeks. Still no job so Once all is here I can get it set up! I have the eheim 2217 going on the 55, as well I hope to have the new lighting system in 2 weeks as well. It Is the Nova Extreme 4-54w T5, with white moon lights. will have 2- 10000k daylight, as well as 2 Geiseman 6000k midday bulbs. Stock list is of course going to start with 8 Bolivan Rams, and 5 panda Corries. Hope to add 12 more Pandas as well as some neon tetras, black neons. Also planning on mabye some Marbled hatchet fish and some glo light tetras. Will post pics up of set up in a couple weeks.

Curt


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## Dutch Dude

Elporcoroso,...congrats on the spawn! But,...keep in mind that most fish eat their first spawns. But once they spawn they will spawn again and again and again!

Cichlidfied,...nice looking tank :thumb: It will look even nicer when the plants grow out.

Curt,....good to hear everything is going well so far. Do you keep us posted when you set up the tanks? And of course,...we love some pics as well.


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## pmisery

Will the BA's eat Red Cherry Shrimp? I am looking to add those to my tank and I am hoping they would not eat them. But also knowing that RCS like to reproduce, it would be easy food for them and then also, I would be getting the strongest of the shrimp, that are able to survive. What do you guys/ladies think?


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## Dutch Dude

I have a population of abouth 200 cherry shrimp in a 50 gallon tank with 7 Bolivians. Occasionally the Bolivians snack on the small baby shrimp. They never kill adults and ignore them for most of the time. If your number of cherry shrimp is large enough (say 30 or more) the loss of some baby shrimp is no problem. They reproduce like mad once. :wink:


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## pmisery

Now how many CRS can I fit comfortably in a 30g tank?


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## pmisery

One of the females, I presume because her vent is larger and pointing down is the aggressor of the three and pesters the two smaller fish. She is the biggest, I wonder if I take her out, will the small male and female maybe then pair?


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## Dutch Dude

Pmisery,.....depends on the footprint of the 30 gallon. If it is a tall tank you easily can keep a pair. If it is a normal shape tank you can keep 2 pairs and with lots and lots of plants and driftwood possibly 5.



> One of the females, I presume because her vent is larger and pointing down is the aggressor of the three and pesters the two smaller fish. She is the biggest, I wonder if I take her out, will the small male and female maybe then pair?


Hard to say,....maybe the addition of a second male solves the problem.


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## DrewWoodside

I've been looking at pics of Bolivian rams and my bolivian rams look slightly different. Mine aren't fully yellow at the front of the body. They have every other characteristic of the pics i've seen except instead of a yellow front they have just a reddish orange color around the lower and tummy area. Do Bolivian rams just tend to vary slightly from fish to fish? Was this fish mismarked or? Thanks!


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## Dutch Dude

Drew,....healthy Bolivians that feel OK or if they are ready to spawn frequently show a orange belly. Younger fish often show the yellow belly. So this is normal and no hybrid or misidentification. You got healthy adult Bolivians :thumb:


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## DrewWoodside

Thanks Dutch, Is it worth it to add Cory's to a tank of dwarves? I'm not trying to breed them so cory's eating the fry or eggs isn't a concern. I feel as though part of the reason people add cory's to dwarf tanks is because they fit the biotype so well and they clean waste. Isn't it true however that the feces/waste Cory's produce themselves negate any cleaning value they may have? As well as the fact that they inhabit a similar region of the tank as dwarves? I really want to make the tank appear to have an authentic south american feel, which is why I want the Cory's but I'm worried they will only stress the dwarves in the long run. Thanks everyone.


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## Dutch Dude

Keeping Corydoras and Bolivians in the same tank is no problem at all. They only snack on eggs and fry but if your not interested in breeding this won't be a problem. They are also fine with smaller pleco's and Loricarids like the L. filamentosa.


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## Tabatha

*edburress*

On page 30, the images are missing from your variation discussion. Is it at all possible to update those or direct me to other similar photos?

Many thanks,

Tabatha


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## edburress

Hi Tabatha,

I made new folders for all of my photos, so all the photobucket links do not work now. All the images are still there. Honestly, I can't remember which photos were included. Here is the link to my bolivian ram folder http://s191.photobucket.com/albums/z3/e ... tispinosa/
There are lots of pictures of breeding coloration, stress coloration, juveniles from 3 weeks to 6 months of age, some vent shots, videos of courting, breeding, wigglers, etc. All the pictures are of my fish except the image labelled georgia aquarium. My article is being put together right now, it should be up soon, it will include all the pertinent pictures related to breeding and fry.

If you have any questions about them, don't hesitate to ask.

Ed


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## Tabatha

Wow, that's fantastic, thank you!!! :thumb:


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## Supercoley1

Hello all I haven't posted in a while due to a house move but I though I'd show you how the tank has progressed (has been a little rearrangement in there too)















#

Hopefully that'll 'butter you up' he, he for a question I have on my BRs

As some of you will know I bought 2 rams last year and initially thought they were both male. I turned out that one was female and she was the stronger fish and starved the smaller male to death.

I then bought another male which as expected was skinny and smaller than the female by a large margin. Of course she dominated the male easily but he was much stronger than the previous male and stood up to her as much as he could.

Since this time he has developed into a beautiful fish, strong in colouration and very long extensions on his tail. He is glowing gold on the whole of the front of his belly (I know he is definately BR and not Gold Ram).

The problem I have now is that over the last month (since the female gave up being the dominant fish, he has been chasing her and trying to become a pair and she doesn't seem interested at all. She looks stressed most of the time but is still eating well. They rarely swim together but do sometimes. Most of the time they spend in opposite ends of the tank, where occasionally the male will venture over to try and tempt her into spawning before giving up and returning to his half of the tank.

What should I do or should I just accept that she doesn't want to pair up with him. Is it because she doesn't like not being dominant?

I will try and get some pics later but they are very hard to take pictures of at the moment.

One other question I have is that I never did find anywhere if Bolivian Rams like a current or like calm water.

Many Thanks and hope you like their tank as much as they do.

Andy


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## Supercoley1

Managed to get some pics.

This is the female. she often looks a lot more stressed than this but still shows her gold, red & blue colours. Just with stress spots added.









This is the male who has ventured into the females corner an hour or so later than the female pic was taken. You can see the female with more stress spots than the previous pic at the back corner of the tank.

You can't really see how long his tail rays are but they are about 1cm long. He often looks a lot brighter than this too but I guess this is inbetween his showing off to the female periods. 
Also his black spots are normally quite luminescent blue instead of black!! And his facial black lines are rarely black, even when his whole body is glowing with colour. 









Andy


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## Dutch Dude

Andy,......A very nice looking tank :thumb: For Bolivians a heaven with lots of plants and hiding places and very nice to look at. You have done a great job :thumb:

Abouth the Bolivians,.....it sounds to me that your male is ready to breed but your female not. The male will chase the female all the time and she will be stressed of it. Do you feed frozen? This might help the female to get ready for spawn as well.

I do think that it is best to keep a small group of Bolivians over a single pair. Problems like this hardly occur within groups. They might switch partners but overall the attention is split to multiple fish. You could add a second couple.


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## Supercoley1

Thanks for the comments on the tank. They love sheltering in the caves and under the Lilys but are not afraid to show themselves in the open areas either.

I've always fed them with frozen bloodworm. They seem to love the 'idea' of it being natural prey landing on the surface and rush up to drag it down. They will not do this on their own. They always wait midwater for the other to appear and then go up and grab the food together which is quite amusing.

Could I do something with the temperature to 'tempt' them. It is currently 27ÂºC but with the plecs and cardinals I have I would feel safe from 24-29 if needed.

I may look for another 'couple' if they continue like this.

Many Thanks
Andy


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## andrew__

great looking tank!

my female will sometimes also show stress spots until she's ready to spawn, when she is ready and while she's guarding eggs her colours rival my male's

(still can't get over that tank. What's the wide leaved plant in the middle? some sort of appon?)


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## Supercoley1

Its actually a Philippine Java Fern. Very slightly smaller than your standard shop Java Fern but I have found it quite easy to grow once it had passed its original leaves phase.

This tank is only 80cm Long (33USG.) If it looks bigger to give this plant the appearance of being very wide leaved I must have got the sense of depth better than I thought. lol

I'm glad to hear it may be just that she's getting ready. I hope she is just (still) coming to terms with being relieved of the dominant fish responsibility by the new male, although this is a month+ ago now.

Will keep you up to date.

Andy


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## DrewWoodside

what is the best temperature for happy bolivians? I also have cory's so I want them to be happy too! thanks


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## edburress

DrewWoodside....I keep all of mine at 77 degrees, although anywhere in the range of 75-79 would be great. That's fine for the cory's as well.

Ed


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## DrewWoodside

thanks ed!


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## Dutch Dude

Andy,...the tank does realy look larger as 33 gallon so you did a good job on the aqua scape and definitely created more depth! :thumb:

You could lower the temp and add RO water but for most Bolivians you don't have to do anything for them to spawn except a regular water change. Maybe they need some more time. I do think you still have room left for a second couple!

I keep mine at 77 to.


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## Supercoley1

No chance of RO water. I need my free nitrates and phosphates from the tap. Theyhelp maintain the plants. lol

Water is moderately hard in my area and natural Ph is 7.2-7.4. With CO2 it drops to about 6.4 and stays that way so it is stable.

No idea what 77F is in C. Mine is set now at 26ÂºC. I have also removed my UV steriliser 2 days ago for a few reasons.

1 - It reduces the flow from my filter as it is inline and my heater is also inline. I need a decent flow to distribut the ferts and CO2 and thefilter is about 6xtank volum per hour.
2 - It raises the temperature.
3 - I wanted to reduce the equipment on this tank.
4 - I didn't really need it, as oyu can see the water is crystal clear and I've never had any diseases even before I got it.
5 - I can sell it to either....up my cardinals back to 20 or buy another pair of Rams....or maybe both (but not cardinals and rams introduced at the same time of course.)

She seems to be calming down these days but the 2 of them tend to stay a long way from each other whereas they used to 'argue' together. Her stree markings are still there buit disappear during her 'alone' spells. Maybe she is just getting ready to 'go all the way' lol

Andy


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## dwarfpike

77 F = 25ish C

your 26C is about 78.8ish F

So you are dead on temp wise. :thumb:


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## DrewWoodside

I had mine at 80 b/c the LFS where I got them said they like that. I suppose I'm going to drop it down to 77/78 now.


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## Dutch Dude

At 80 is to high imo. They be fine on 75 to 78.

Supercoley,....a nice converter http://www.wbuf.noaa.gov/tempfc.htm


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## lucky69

Hi,

I tried to sex my boliviam ram but i only find male. Is there somebody to confirm it?
Thanks.


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## Dutch Dude

Pic nr 1 male, 2 female, 3 looks like a male, 4 not visable, 5 female, 6 and 7 hard to tel but looks like male to me.


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## edburress

That's exactly what I came up with also, the picture of 4 would need to be more straight on from the side, from that angel it has qualities that make me think male and female.

Nice looking youngsters!

Ed


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## mcflyyy

justflow1983 said:


> I picked mine up 2 weeks ago when i decided to get back into tropical fish after "inheriting" a tank from some roommates. Definitely the most fun fish i can remember having, I'm setting up a larger tank soon so that I can shoal them. Great fish.


I just discovered these guys and now have 4 in my community tank, they went straight in like they own the joint! Would they be happier with a few more friends? 
Also, is there an easy way to sex them? mine are only yound at the moment


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## Dutch Dude

A group of 4 Bolivians is nice and if the footprint, size and aqua scape allow it you can add more and find them to be even more interesting. What is the size/dimensions of your tank and what are the other inhabitants?


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## mcflyyy

Its a 4ft tank with a wide variety of smaller school fish (Raspboras, platies & the like) a few gold sucking catfish, 2 pictus cat's as well as Sven the 4inch severum and a and lots of plants, rocks and driftwood to hide in. Sven & Pictus Cat's have claimed the best caves but i'n about to put some more in. I was just curios about the comment about shoaling comment as they seem to be solitary fish with weel defined territories. I'm very new to all of this so I could be on the wrong track entirely  
Cheers,
McFlyyy

I'd love to stick up a photo of the tank but I haven't figured out how yet


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## Dutch Dude

Well they have a lot in common with their big relatives Geophagus. Imo they are the most interesting and show very nice interesting social behaviour in small groups.


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## D-007

Hi all,

finally got some pictures of my M.altaspinosa's so I could join the group and get some help; I hope that's ok 

The tank is a 55g and also has 3 male Biotodoma cupido's; 9 Neon Tetra's; 2 Otocinclus sp; 2 Corydoras sp.

I think I have 2 males and 1 female :-? as shown in the pictures and using the sexing guide by *blairo1*. I've also enclosed a picture of how the tank looks right now.

My 'female' is not doing too good though it would seem. She (if it is a she) is not eating, breathing heavily and stays near the bottom of the tank amongst the plants or in one of the caves - never at the surface. The tank did have a slight outbreak of ich when they were added and I raised the temp to 86Â°F slowly over the course of a week. Before y'all yell at me about that, I found that remedy/tip in the library. Everyone else is now doing fine, swimming around actively and eating, except this one Ram. 10 days have now passed and I'm looking at getting the temp slowly back down to about 78Â°F, so my plan is to put her in a hospital tank and treat her in there. I'll be picking up a tank tomorrow, cleaning it and getting it setup for her.

This is where I need some help though; once setup, the tank will be bare bottom with plastic plants and a coconut cave (already boiled). Here are my questions:


I know I'll have to acclimatise her to the hospital tank but should I also bring the hospital tank tempreture down over the following days once she is in?

Then, should I and is it ok to treat her with Maracide from Mardel, which I have to hand?

Is there anyrhing else I can do?

I hope my pictures aren't too bad to enjoy/view and that I don't offend anyone by asking for help at the same time.

Regards,
D

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i161/ ... anRamA.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i161/ ... RamA-1.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i161/ ... anRamB.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i161/ ... RamB-1.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i161/ ... arring.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i161/ ... Female.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i161/ ... 5-2008.jpg


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## D-007

Well I decided to add the Mardell Maricide to the main tank in the end because as I was filling up the 10g hospital tank and nice crack speedily started making it's way along the front of the glass. 

Talk about moving fast to get the tank empty; never knew I could move that quick :lol:

I'm also bringing the temps of the main tank down to 78Â°F over the next few hours - seems my live plants don't like the higher temps either.

Fingers crossed all will turn out well and the 'female' will start eating etc


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## Dutch Dude

Welcome at the club D! At first, you don't offend anyone by asking info and thats were this board and post are for,....share knowledge and discus troubles and or ideas. So feel free to ask anything abouth the Bolivians and their needs and care.

Hard to tell the sex of fish number one,.....could be a young female. What I do know is that fish number 2 is deformed and skinny. His spine is bended and the fish is skinny and show stress spots. I can imagine this is disappointing for you to hear but I have to be honest abouth it. So I would take him back to the lfs.

The set up looks fine and it will need some more time for the plants to grow larger but so far so good.

How do the cupids and Bolivians get along? I have my doubts if this mix will work. The cupids and Bolivians do have some similarities in coloration and I hope this doesn't give troubles in the future (a cupid mistaking a Bolivian for an other cupid and attacking him during breeding). But,...I'm not experienced in this particular fish mix.

Is the ill fish the same as on pic number 2? If so I think meds won't cure him.

The temperature and salt treatment are well known to be useful for Ich treatment so this doesn't surprise me. Bolivians don't like the high temps and most plants have a hard time with it as well. I do suggest to decrease the temp slowly to avoid temperature shocks. So I recommend 2 to 3 F a day. You will be at a normal temperature in 3 to 4 day's.


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## D-007

Thank you for the welcome and the reply 

I have been lowering the tempreture very slowly as recommended and will be putting in the final Maricide dose on Thursday night, which by that time I hope to have the tank down to 78Â°F.

The Cupids are doing ok with the Rams currently but I'm going to get them into a tank of their own in the future once I can find some females for my three males. From what information I have been able to find about them, they seem to have the same temprement as Bolivians but get larger.

The sick fish is the second last picture and is not in any of the previous ones - it was easier to take as it stayed pretty still although it kept turning it's back to the camera :roll: This is the one that I think is a female.

I cannot take any of the Rams back as they have been in the tank over a month now but eventually I would like to breed my Rams - do deformaties pass on to the young if breeding occurs?

If I can find good tank-bred Bolivian Ram stock; something I'm having a hard time achieving as you've already noticed, I would like to have 2 males and either 4 or 6 females - would that be a step in the right direction?

I'll try to get some better pictures of each of the other two Bolivians - the ones that I think are males - with my limited Kodak Easyshare C875 digicam  and then edit the previous post.

I'm also going to a nearby river this weekend hopefully to find some driftwood for the tank.

Thank you again for taking the time to reply and for the pointers.

Regards,
D


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## Dutch Dude

The fish on the second last pic could be a female but is is realy hard to see and no clear shot of the vent.

Deformities do pass on but there will be healthy fish among them as well. You can select the healthy fish and go on with them. Do keep in mind that deformities will occur in the line.

I keep 7 Bolivians in a 55 densely planted tank but this is realy on the edge. I keep them for many years now so I know what they need and this makes it more easy for me. I do suggest a maximum of 6 in a 55 if the tank does have a normal shape. The footprint is the most important and each fish needs a average territory of a circle with a diameter of 10 inch (or a 10 by 10 square) If the cupids be moved in the near future you will have room for the 6 Bolivians. If breeding is a serious goal you might want to stick with 4 of them. Mine breed all the time and are still young fish but most fry get eaten by the other Bolivians. A smaller number of Bolivians reduces the chance for that and offers them more floor space. If you go for 2 males and 4 females you have a maximum of 2 couples. This could be a benefit for raising fry.

I like the cupids and they do look a lot like Bolivians. I kept off becouse I do read a lot abouth aggression during spawning. I never kept them but I still find them a interesting fish. I'm curious abouth your future experiences with them when they are adults.

Well the pics aren't that bad but it is quit difficult to get a sharp clear shot of the vents. You will manage and the cam doesn't have to be a problem. I take my pics with a sonyericsson phone :wink:

Oooh be careful with that driftwood! It can be contaminated with oil and stuff from the river and can hold lots of micro organisms you don't want in your tank. If the water is clean and no boats on it you can do it but you have to boil the wood before you put it in the tank. This can be a problem with large pieces.


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## D-007

Regarding the wood from the river, no boats travel on it thankfully  As for the treating it, I'm going to put any pieces I find in a 33g plastic container and soak them in Potassium Permanganate until the water turns brown, then rinse off with a hose and finally pour boiling water over them and letting them soak in that for 24 hours.

I also have some better pictures of the 2 'males' - looks like the deformed one is a male (2xpictures of him) and I think the unflawed one is a female (1xpicture) .... hope that can be confirmed.

I wasn't able to get a better picture of the 'sick' fish as that one stayed in a cave - if I don't see any improvement in it by Sunday I'm putting it in a hospital tank.

I will go with your advice on 6 Rams for this 55g - 2 males and 4 females - just got to get some.

By the way, thank you for pointing out the deformed Ram; I didn't know until you told me what to look for. As I cannot take him back to the LFS, what do you recommend I do with him?

Thanks again for the guidance.

Deformed Male Bolivian Ram
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i161/ ... cture1.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i161/ ... cture2.jpg

Unflawed Female Bolivian Ram
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i161/ ... cture1.jpg


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## Dutch Dude

Confirm! Deformed fish is male and second fish is female! I noticed the deformed male is not that skinny any more. So you do a good job on feeding. How is the female doing right now?


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## D-007

Excellent news, thanks! Both the confirmed male and female are doing fine ... eating etc. I have noticed that the female is the more dominant of the two since she is always chasing him away. :-?

The sick 'female' is still no better and I'm going to transfer her to a hospital tank either Saturday or Sunday as that is when it'll be ready. I'll also be able to take a picture of her/it then since the only decor in the tank will be plastic plants that I have already sterilized by boiling. I'll be following up her treatment of Maricide with Maracyn-Two from the same company (that is their recommendation).

In case I didn't mention it, it is not eating (about 1Â½ weeks), it's fins are clamped, it hides all the time around the bottom of the tank, it's breathing is heavy/rapid and it's coloring is nonexistent other than the stress spots/bars. It also could be a deformed specimen. From what knowledge I have and what I have read, it could have a secondary internal infection/disease; but I'm no expert. 

I'll just do what I can and hope for the best as well as post my updates.

Regards,
D


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## blairo1

Hey guys, so maybe I should divulge a bit;

To be honest I've been having a bit of a crud time recently for general reasons I won't go into and it's really drained me. To top it off I lost my female Bolivian after she was severely wounded via the male (if only I'd been present when the fight took place) and it was horrible, she lost her eye, massive shock etc, clearly struggling so I ended it . Not a happy day for me.

I'm struggling with fish at the moment, I love them all to bits but losing her put a big downer on me, my chances of finding a decent mature female are, as you all know, slim to none and I desperately wanted to breed those two, a week later and they would have had the perfect environment (more plants are on order after a tank re-shuffle).

Thank god for my Rotkeil, he's such a friendly dude if it weren't for him I think I might have packed it in (I wouldn't really, but it's bad enough, in my mind, to have thought about it). So that's pretty much why I've been away, I needed time to get over my downer (don't worry no fish got neglected, of course) and I'm hoping that the arrival of my new plants and a new scape will re-invigorate my passion..... I'll have pics to update you all with and the passion to really get back into the boards, I feel like I've lost touch and probably some respect, but I'll be back, you watch.

Blair.


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## Dutch Dude

D,.....Did I missed all the info abouth the sick one? I assumed he was stressed and hiding a lot! Clamped fins, not feeding, hang on the substrate, heavy breeding......it does sound like Bloat or extreme stress. Not sure abouth recommendations right now. If it is Bloat chances are very small he will cure after such a long period. If it is stress you can save it but it should not take to long becouse he will weaken to much. Does the fish get chased all the time by the other 2? To be honest,.....I think it is Bloat and it probably won't take long before he/ she dies. You can try to treat it with Metro but I think it is to late for that. I'm sorry,...I wish I had better news and I'm missed the info abouth the illness.

Heee Blair. I missed you bud!

I'm sorry to hear abouth the loss of the female! Maybe you can find a nice batch of youngsters and raise them and join them later on with your hyper territorial male. At one point I'm surprised he damaged and harassed his female and on the other hand,....some males show more aggressive if kept as a pair. I never read abouth such behaviour if they are in a small group of 4 or more. Maybe you should give that a thought. I'm sure you will enjoy the Bolivians even more in a shoal! So,....what do you think Blair?


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## edburress

Blair...sorry to hear about the loss of your female! It was a beautiful fish. Don't get discouraged, I have lost fish after having them for years and years, but such is part of the hobby. If you found a pair as nice as yours, I am sure you can find another quality female!

Looking forward to the pics of the new scape!

Ed


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## cichlidaholic

Blair, if you'd come visit me in Canada I'd send you home with lots of nice females...

Glad to see you back, you're presence is always missed around here!

Now, for a thread update, I have about 100 new babies I siphoned off last night and put in a grow out tank! My "good parents" are spawning every 2-3 weeks now. Baby machines! :lol:

Kim


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## D-007

*Blair*, sorry to hear about your Bolivian Female loss but glad to hear you are on the positive side of things again. Chin up mate. :thumb:

*Cichlidaholic*, may I inquire if you will be selling some of the young when they grow?

*Dutch Dude*, I think _I_ may have been the one confusing you; sorry about that. To clarify I have the following:

1x deformed Bolivian now confirmed as Male.

1x healthy Bolivian now confirmed as Female.

1x sick Bolivian as yet unconfirmed sex.

To update, I whipped the sick fish out of the 55g earlier and put it in a 10g as the other fish were picking at it; I believe they sensed it was on it's way out. I'm thinking it will die in the next few hours. I also tend to agree with you that it has/had bloat and am really hoping the other fish in the 55g didn't get it. To be safe I will do a 50% water change tomorrow and then begin the treatment of Maracyn-Two.

Thanks and regards,
D


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## Dutch Dude

D,.....I'm sorry abouth the Bolivian! I never experienced Bloat until 6 weeks ago and bought some Apisto's. I didn't recognised it as bloat and when I did I was already to late. I lost 4 of the 6 apisto's. I have had them for 10 day's in quarantine and already introduced a pair to the 90 gallon. Non of the fish in the 90 gallon became ill. The same for 2 males in the Q tank.

Bloat is caused by flagellates in the intestines. Those couse demage in the intestines and later on also on the other organs. The intestines become infected and lots of bacteria shut it of. So the fish can't poo any more. In this stage the fish does no longer feed and bloating of the belly begins. If it comes this far fish are very hard to treat. So if Bloat is discovered in an early stage it can be cured quit easily but if it made progress chances are very small.

Best meds for Bloat treatment are Metro (metronidazole) and dimetridazole. I have had good success with an other batch of apisto's and cured the fish with dimetridazole. The drug dimetridazole is easy to solute in water and metro isn't. You can add it to the tank (read the description) and also soak some foods in a mix of 20% meds and 80% water. If they eat the food the meds will cure the fish from the inside and the chance of healing is much larger. That's also the problem with treating Bloat,....most of us notice the fish won't feed.

Keep your eyes open to stringy whitish poo, fin clamping, hang in a corner and refusing to feed.

I'm not to woried abouth the other fish. They are definitely in a better shape and not showing signs of illness. I do suggest to treat them just to make sure.


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## D-007

Thanks for the info and tips, now I know what to keep an eye out for.

Incidently, what should I do with the deformed male that's in the 55g with the healthy female?

Regards,
D


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## cichlidaholic

D-007, I don't sell my fry. I give them away, but you'd have a long road trip to Canada from North Carolina! :lol:

Once you get a breeding pair worked out, you'll have more than you can handle...These little guys spawn every 2-3 weeks, producing 100 fry each time.

Has anyone noticed that they tend to lose a significant amount of fry within a day or so of siphoning them out and moving them?

Kim


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## blairo1

Hey guys thanks for all the support and kind words, it means a lot.

Kim I'd love some of your lovely little nippers, might be the most expensive Bolivians ever bought :lol:.

I'm sorry to read that some of you have been experiencing difficulties of your own with our favourite little friends and I wish I'd been around to help out (thanks to our resident fish-a-holics here you couldn't get better advice, but it's nice to contribute anyway.)

So Ruurd, here is what I believe happened:

In such a selective environment the male had made his choice of mate, they had spawned on many occasion however the female never really seemed to be able to see through the rearing process, she was certainly a bit ditsy (bless her) and this infuriated the male to no end.

Many here will understand that, some new to the hobby may not, but if my fish have taught me one thing and just that one thing, it is that they possess quite astonishing awareness. There is no doubt in my mind that my male had twigged that this female was incapable of full term care, not only that she was incapable of full term rearing, but that she was weaker, genetically speaking, she was not as feracious, prolific or procreant a breed, certainly not compared with the male.

He worked this out, it happened in a matter of days, perhaps even hours and as would occur in the wild (I can only assume due to the behaviour) he attempted to push her from his territory, unfortunately I was not around when he finally rejected her, I should have pulled her sooner but I failed her, I had hoped that reconciliation was a possibility, it seemed possible, but I misjudged.

Under "normal" circumstances it is likely she would have survived, but those of you have read my posts, who know this male, he was clearly brutal in his rejection of her, he, as a result, has been put in the tank with the Sev, Keyhole and dominant Pelvicachromis, he is the bottom rung fish - Rotkeil >Pelvicachromis>Keyhole>Bolivian male and he knows it, although in some ways he hasn't been the same since she "went", he doesn't fight back, just accepts his place and gets on with it. My aim is to hammer down his hostility and see if being bossed around for the next x amount of time (ie until I get new females) will sort him out a bit before I introduce several females.

I refuse to keep these fish in pairs any more,not unless the male is one of gentle nature, my male needs several females, or rather, my females need other females to take the heat for a while. I always knew this but the female, for a long time the female was strong enough, she gave him as good as she got, but unlike the male she didn't seem capable of keeping this intense activity up, no matter how good the diet etc, he outpaced her in the end.

1. Keep groups of these fish.
2. Don't push it too far.
3. Learn from your mistakes, quickly.
4. Learn from my mistake, please.

When I find more females I will give them their tank and rear them well, the Bolivian male will be introduced to their world, when they are ready to spawn, so hopefully they can give _him_ the run around for a change.

Ps, my Keyhole is a legend, he is the one working on taming the male Bolivian, following him around (passively) but just keeping the Bolivian on his metaphorical toes, no flaring, no fighting, nothing, just an authoritative presence. The Bolivian is only boss to the cory's..... you can tell he knows it....

pps, anyone miss my ridiculously long postings?


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## Dutch Dude

Blair,.....


> my male had twigged that this female was incapable of full term care, not only that she was incapable of full term rearing, but that she was weaker, genetically speaking, she was not as feracious, prolific or procreant a breed, certainly not compared with the male.


 I think your right abouth that. The problem with just one pair is that he can't select an other more capable female. Also,....there is no other male that can compensate his "aggression" and stand up against him. So far I never heard of this kind of troubles with small groups of 5 or more Bolivians. I'm still convinced these fish do best in a small group.

My young fish are still attempting to raise the fry and to be honest,....they aren't the best parents. No wonder,....they get pulled out of the tank at the age of one week and not get raised by their parents (large community tank) Luckily I have one male that turns out to be a good parent. He spawned with several females and took care of all those fry,....and even some of the fry of his tankmates. Well it isn't hard to understand he couldn't cope this job. After abouth 5 weeks I still have 3 nice fry left. Those will be strong fish and learned from their dad unlike most fish from breeders and fish farms. Future will tell if they are better parents and pairs have a more stable bond.



> pps, anyone miss my ridiculously long postings?


 YES!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## D-007

Dutch Dude said:


> .......... Best meds for Bloat treatment are Metro (metronidazole) and dimetridazole.


I have found that Seachem carries metronidazole but who carries dimetridazole? :-?


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## D-007

Btw, Blair and Ruurd, if I may ask, how come your article on M.altispinosa in the Library did not include how to differentiate between male and female specimens?


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## andrew__

There's another thread floating around here somewhere written by Blair... Here's the guide. (if you need to find it fast just search for keywords "sexing" from author "blairo1" and you'll find it a few times over :wink:

Blair - sorry to hear about your girl. She pretty much made my male look plain in comparison. Hope you can find a few new fish the same quality to fill out your group.


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## blairo1

Yes Ruurd these fish are most definitely suited to small groups, pairs will work but I would only advise this if you have other females available IMMEDIATELY should the male reject one of them, if that's the case you may as well just have them all in the same tank......

Well we had to find out one way or another and although my pair were successful for a long time, it collapsed in on me in the end.... So even if things seem gravy, remember that these fish have made their calculations long before you'll catch on to it.

:lol: Ruurd I can just see the male racing around the tank stopping in at each of his girls fry nurseries, doing his bit, then shooting off again. No wonder he couldn't keep it up, sounds like a similar situation some _people_ get themselves into and look how stressed they get!! Crazy, it's nice that you have been left with a few very strong fish and I will be curious to see how they fare in raising their fry full term! My male is very similar in his abilities but it sounds like you have a super-dad there bud! Mine just got hacked off with the female and would separate the fry into a group for him and a group for her, hers being considerably smaller, this, to me anyway, is clearly a result of his realisation that although she could produce decent sized spawns, she wasn't up to the rest of it...... A lone fish, however, will have great difficulty raising fry, he shot himself in the fin with that one.

*D-007*, we discussed this and thought that the sexing article would be better off as an individual guide, one which I intended to work on when I next got the chance to take high quality photo's of the fish, unfortunately I didn't get the chance to do that, so I'm going to go through the thousands of images I already have and see if I can't put together a sexing guide with clearer pics, which I will then submit to the library. For the meantime I've relied on good people like Andrew (thanks bud!) to point others in the right direction :thumb: .....

I know Ed was working on an article as well and I wonder how that is going?

Again thank you all for your kind words and support, it means a lot....

PS. Kim, you quiet helper you, not even asking for the thanks which you deserve, thank you Kim.

Blair.


----------



## Supercoley1

I think judging by your experience here Blairo I will take Ruurd's advice and get another pair because my female used to look like a prime specimen and very dominant but the male who has now been in situ for 3 months is now absolutely stunning and chasing her a lot.

They seem to have developed territories so I think they may be a similar similar mismatch to yours.

I have some changes to make in my tank today anyway so I might just pop out and see if I can find another male and female to add later in the day once the changes have been made.

Good luck with your search. I am seeing some nice specimens at my local MA at the moment, 100x better than the ones in [email protected] although I know you don't rate MA too highly they seem to be getting better and better these days.

Andy

Andy


----------



## blairo1

Alright bud, do it, before it's too late! Sounds exactly like what happened with mine..... Even after a tank move, re-arranging etc it only seemed to delay the end result.

If maidenhead are getting better stock that's great, I've always been on at them about getting them from the Czech rather than Asia and they tend to listen and I do ask that it goes to the top, from store manager to area manager etc :thumb: So I think you may have got lines crossed somewhere - I actually highly rate maidenhead, or at least the one near me is far superior to even the local run shop, which is a great shame in terms of keeping family business going, but at the end of the day it comes down to the choices they've made eh.

I've got my order in anyway - Czech or German farmed only, just below sexual maturity, excellent specimens or no sale.... Am I too specific? :lol: Thing is, they'll do it for me, that's why I like 'em so....


----------



## D-007

Thanks for that link Andrew and the tip on finding it quickly 

I look forward to any future article being added to the Library on sexing these guys as I agree it would be of great benefit to those that know not how to tell them apart. It was from one of the pages in this thread (sorry I can't remeber which page exactly plus I'm still working my way through it  ) and the help of Dutch Dude that I was able to learn how to do it, so kudos to you both.

Regards,
D


----------



## cichlidaholic

Blair, I've been called a lot of things...But "quiet" was never one of them! :lol:

Kim


----------



## Supercoley1

Well here they are and they did come from maidenhead. they were in the same tank but not paired up. I chose the ones I thought looked the bes (and I am normally wrong. lol)

These 2 are about 60% the size of the 2 adults I currently have and I can say the adult female is already enjoying the fact that the male has his beady eye on the new female rather than chasing her about and has lost most of her stress spots. She also seems to be enjoying dominating the new small male. lol

Here is a pic of the new female still in the bag. I chose her because her ovipositor is very swolen and therefore I am hoping she will pair with the adult male. This pic shows just how swolen she is but pairing will take a little time yet.









And this is the new male which I picked because he was dominating the tank he was in so will stand more of a chance against my adult male who is quite literally a stunningly beautiful healthy fish which means he is also a very strong fish too.









I bought them today because I am removing a fair bit of plantmass tonight (to send to some members on UKaps and therefore this should remove some territory markers the adults had already decided upon, give me some more viewing space for the fish and more importantly have somewhere else to position a breeding stone for the second pair.

Hope all goes well now.

Andy


----------



## edburress

Blair....my article is done and submitted. Hopefully it will be up soon. It is about breeding and raising fry, and there are some pictures of male and female fry at 5-6 months, to "help" sexing fry that young.

blair btw, the picture I posted of the 3 week old fry a long time ago, did turn out to be a female like you thought. She's about 1.5" now and still the largest fry, although the males are catching up fast now. At that age I was convinced she was a male :lol: I have a male "one spot" fry that is going to be a stunner.

Ed


----------



## blairo1

:thumb: to you all really.

Andy those pics are promising mate, nice to see them in at a decent size rather than the usual "far too young to be sold let alone shipped" lot..... That male should turn out a treat!

Ed, I look forward to seeing the article bud and I expect it will cover everything that Ruurd and I couldn't at the time, it will be nice to have an in-depth article specifically about rearing these fish for our members eh! So the feeling I got from your fish turned out to be correct, well she must be a stunner by now Ed and if she's that far ahead I should expect her to give even the hyper males a run for their money!

I want pics, of the female and one spot male!! You brought it up mate :lol:.


----------



## Dutch Dude

D,....I don't know if it is available over there but Flagellix of the brand Colombo contains dimetridazole.

Blair,....super dad is indeed an amazing fish. His bond with the female didn't worked and did his very best to raise the fry on his own. A lot of the small fry were eaten and I do have some suspicions towards the Oto's! They always hang around a bunch of wigglers bus don't take interest into eggs.

Be careful with the Czech fish,...I have some very bad experiences with Czech apisto's and Bloat!



> Blair, I've been called a lot of things...But "quiet" was never one of them!
> 
> Kim


 :lol: :lol: :lol:

Andy,...nice fish :thumb:

Ed,......


> At that age I was convinced she was a male


 I have had the same situation and probably Blair still remember. It was the biggest fish among the batch of abouth 80 and was the first to show some red and blue. It realy looked like a dominant male at that point. After all it turned out to be a very large female. Later on she was the pail fish of all and got chased by females half her size! Doesn't sound like a good future parent so I sold her to the lfs.

Good to hear the article is done and Ed and submitted! I hope it will be soon on the profile section and library becouse it does contain a lot of useful info abouth breeding and raising fry. It is a perfect addition to the already existing articles and everyone should read it!!!

Blair,.....I hope the sexing guide will be soon on the section as well becouse the pics and your great guidelines makes it much easier to sex the fish.


----------



## Supercoley1

Just thought I'd update. After 5 hours of the new BRs arriving this is how the adult female looks now:









I guess you could say that she's instantly been cured. lol

I also finally managed to get a pic of the adult male, not great but at least in the open:









And this is the newly arranged scape (had to make room for 2 flat stones at either end and removed some of the foreground plants









Thanks for the advice Ruurd. It seems to have worked a treat. Now preparing for a week or 2 of warfare. lol then in a months time I'm going to up the cardinals to 20 and this tank is finished stockingwise.

Andy


----------



## Cichlidfied

D-007 said:


> Thanks for that link Andrew and the tip on finding it quickly
> 
> I look forward to any future article being added to the Library on sexing these guys as I agree it would be of great benefit to those that know not how to tell them apart. It was from one of the pages in this thread (sorry I can't remeber which page exactly plus I'm still working my way through it  ) and the help of Dutch Dude that I was able to learn how to do it, so kudos to you both.
> 
> Regards,
> D


Page 11 :thumb:


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## D-007

Cichlidfied said:


> Page 11 :thumb:


 :lol: Thanks for that, CRS is playing havoc with me lately :lol:



Dutch Dude said:


> D,....I don't know if it is available over there but Flagellix of the brand Colombo contains dimetridazole.


Doesn't look like it is but finding Metronidazole as well as Clout should be good.

*Supercoley1*, nice setup and nice specimens ... if I may say it, "very inspiring".

Regards,
D


----------



## edburress

*Supercoley1*....fish are looking good :thumb:

*Blair*.... :lol: I'll try and get some pics up tomorrow. I have pictures of 2-3 months ago, so I will get some up-to-date ones.

Surprisingly, the large female (same as your experience *Ruurd*) doesn't have much attitude. Two of the mid-sized females seem to have a lot of attitude and are starting to get territorial, so hopefully I will get some really strong females out of the group. I am also glad to see that both the larger males seem very calm and non-aggressive. I will take the two "one spot" males and pick out 4 females to go with them.

I know when I got 3 females for my male to choose from, he paired with the smallest one, and absolutely doesn't tolerate the others. So, most of my experience reveals the smaller to mid-sized females turn out the most attitude. I had much more success when I kept the 2 pairs together. Eventually I split them into two setups 1m/1f, and 1m/2f and neither of these worked out as well. So, I am going to keep a group of 6 out of the fry, 2m/4f.


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## cichlidaholic

Supercoley 1, they look fantastic! Amazingly "settled" to be so new to the tank...

Kim


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## Supercoley1

Kim. I think you got confused there by my lack of info. The adult female had been in since approx September last year, the adult male since January this year.

The adult female had become somewhat stressed out from the male's attention which is why I put the pic up to show she seems to be a lot better now.

The post above is of the new juvys.

Sorry about that but yes the newbies do look settled too now. Nice to see everyone is wandering around the tank now I have opened the front up a little bit. There is quite a lot of chasing going on though but it's not too brutal at the moment.

Andy


----------



## cichlidaholic

I'm easily confused, Andy! :lol:

And, as long as this thread is at this point, there's no way I'm going back through to try to figure things out!

Kim


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## Supercoley1

Ruurd,

I have to kneel and worship you. You are the Bolivian man.

Its only 2 days since (on your advice) I added a second male and second female to the tank AND....

....when I came home from work today, the adult female who was ignoring all advances from the adult male to the point she was getting stressed and looking very 'spotty' is now more than colourful. She is looking almost luminous, and the 2 of them are swimming together as if they were always meant for each other. She also has a much larger vent than 2 days ago!!! Fingers crossed.

The 2 new juvys are also together but are now in the rear corner of the tank. This shouldn't be a problem because there is a nice smooth stone in that corner. They aren't as colourful as the adults but seem happy enough and they are still new to the tank so hopefully they wil colour up in the next few weeks.

Great advice as always and many thanks.

I will try and get a pic at the weekend just to show how colourful they are. They look like they've been photoshopped.

Andy

Andy


----------



## Dutch Dude

:lol: I'm just a normal guy Andy! But,.....good to hear the addition of two more fish worked out so good and the pair got a better bond to each other. The larger vent sounds promising!


----------



## Trinidad

I just got an adult (pair?) of Bolivian Rams. I'll try to get pictures of them, but is it natural for females to chase other rams away or open their mouths and charge? My thought to-be female was doing this.

Thanks!


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## Dutch Dude

> is it natural for females to chase other rams away or open their mouths and charge


It is normal they chase away other Bolivians from their territory. Mostly short spurts and when the fish flees the spurt ends. They do lip lock but normally no demage has been done. I like to see some pics.


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## Trinidad

I'm having trouble focusing on the fish. Any advise would be appreciated. (Using Olympus DSLR)

In the meantime, I made a 4 minute video that has some short clips of the Bolivians.


----------



## mcflyyy

I find the camera will focus itself much better if you turn off the room lights and leave the tank lit. Also try not to use a flash and it should all work itself out. Hopefully


----------



## mcflyyy

Hi All,
I've had my 4 rams for a few weeks now and although they're all healthy, happy and seem well fed, I never see them eat :-? As I said they're all healthy but I am really curious - between all of the catfish and scavengers in the tank I didn't think there would be much leftovers. 
Should I be getting some special food for them or just leave it alone?
Cheers,
mcFlyyy


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## cichlidaholic

What are you feeding them, mcFlyyy?

They should be greedy little eaters, and 4 weeks is more than enough time for them to settle in.

Kim


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## mcflyyy

Hi Kim,
The whole tank gets a combination of flake, frozen bloodworm, cichlid pellets and live crickets. The crickets never last more than 3 seconds but these guys don't actually seem to be eating even the bloodworms that sink  
Thanks for your help,
Mcflyyy


----------



## Dutch Dude

Trinidad,...your Bolivians show normal behaviour. The larger one on the right of the tank claimed the large flat stone as his / her territory and thats why the smaller one got chased away. If the small one left his territory he / she stops chasing.

Macflyyy,...... thats strange! I like to see a pic of the aquascape and I like to know what their tank inhabitants are,....especially becouse you feed crickets! Do your Bolivians display small black dots all over their body?


----------



## Supercoley1

Quick update on mine.

The adult females seems to have refused the adult male although she is still guarding the stone they were had as their teritory. She is still fully coloured up and hasn't returned to her stressed state so I don't really know what is happening there.

The adult male, juvy male and juvy female are all in the other side of the tank where the juvy female seems to be accepting the adult male (who is literally double her length) but all 3 get chased away from the adult female's side.

Lets hope that the adult male and juvy female get together and then once hes grown maybe the juvy male will get with the adult female.

Hope that didn't confuse you all too much. lol

Andy


----------



## Trinidad

Thanks for your input, Dutch Dude and mcflly. (Good advise on the pictures)

I'm going to stop trying to sex my Bolivians, until I get some good photos. It doesn't really matter, as they are all doing great + looking really healthy. I'm quite pleased with them. They seem to be switching territories everyday, though. :/ Not like I care. 

I added some cories to my tank today (6) so my tank is almost complete. I can't wait till my Bolivians color up. I hope feeding them bloodworms helps.

Andy, I hope that your Bolivians pair up, as they are very beautiful and look healthy.


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## Supercoley1

I have solved the problem (or some of it)

Whilst doing tonights water change (and prune) I was trying to cut a lotus stem at the base near the female's stone and she was attacking my scissors. I had to be very careful and cut whilst she was not charging at them. lol

On closer inspection of the area the roots seemed to have a 'heathaze' so I had to look even closer and lo and behold the 'heathaze' is actually loads of little wrigglers. This is why she has been chasing everyone away!!

I would have to asume that because she is also chasing the 'father' away that she has decided he is no good and is going to go it alone.

So in one way good and one way bad but I'm quite cheery at the moment. She got a little stressed from the scissors incident but hopefully she'll have forgiven me for that by tomorrow.

Many Thanks Guys
Andy


----------



## mcflyyy

Hey Supercoley, 
I like your planted tank, I keep hearing people say live plants are too much effort but I reckon they're worth it!

Thanks for you help Dutch & Kim,
Below is the latest photo of my tank, since then I've added 2 hollow logs on the back left and my rams have claimed one each :thumb:

They have no spots or other signs of stress, all look happy and healthy. In fact the one I'm sure is male has just started showing fantastic bright colours

Their tankmates are:
1 gold severum
1 geophargus rio pindare
4 giant danios
4 sunset platies
5 harlequin raspboras
4 assorted barbs
a couple of gold sucking catfish
2 pictus catfish

I realise this is quite a list for a 4 foot tank but they have plenty of room and water levels are all good and steady. I change 25% weekly and double that every 3 weeks

All of your advice to others in this forum has helped me out a lot, and any info you could give me would be great.
Cheers,
Mcflyyy

ps: aquascape...

http://www.resdagboken.se/Default.a...leries&journeyId=47909&page=&pageSize=12[/url]


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## Dutch Dude

Andy,.....they need some time and I would not be surprised if they switch partners for a couple of times. Sounds good your female is colored up nicely and don't display the stress spots any longer and is taking care of a nice bunch of wigglers!!!


> I would have to assume that because she is also chasing the 'father' away that she has decided he is no good and is going to go it alone.


 This can very well be the case. I'm curious if she manage to raise the fry on her own.

Trinidad,....


> They seem to be switching territories everyday, though. :/ Not like I care.


 it will take a couple of weeks before they establish their own territory so I guess they will switch a couple of times more :wink:

Mcflyyy,.....thats indeed quit a stock list but it also depends on the volume of the tank. It doesn't look crowded to me. Unfortunately Geophagus don't do well on their own and do best in groups of 5 or more. The tank looks nice but I would get ride of the large gravel. Bolivians, Severum and especially Geophagus like to dig and sift in the sand. This is part of their natural behaviour and they just can't do this in your tank. An other reason to get ride of the large gravel is that dirt will get taped in the arias in between and will be very difficult to remove. If the dirt can't be removed it can begin to decay and couse all sort of troubles. The aquascape looks nice but sand substrate would create a more natural look. Good to hear your fish feel happy and thats the most important of course!!! Oooh I also suggest to take the water changes up to 35% or even more each week.


----------



## mcflyyy

Cheers Dutch Dude,
I'm in the process of setting up a new 6ft tank with a sand substrate and lots of rock- I was planning to fill it with africans but now I think I'll move my poor cichlids out of the community and let them have their own tank.
i've been searching for some more geo rio's but they aren't all that common in Aus. I know he needs some friends 

Thanks for the advice, I'm off down to my LFS with the VISA 

Mcflyyy


----------



## Dutch Dude

A 6 foot tank will be perfect for a nice group of Geophagus!!! I advice to give them a more natural environment with some nice large pieces of driftwood. Oooh en when your done I realy like to see a pic of the tank on this board :wink:


----------



## Supercoley1

I have started feeding the wrigglers with Hikari First bites as they are swimming an inch or 2 before being sucked in and spat out again by mum.

Just wondering how much and how often I should be giving?

Andy


----------



## cichlidaholic

I have best success with a clutch if I feed both bbs and Hikari...I seem to have more "survivors".

I try to feed every 3-4 hours for the first couple of weeks, but sometimes it isn't possible to do it that often.

Kim


----------



## Supercoley1

what is bbs and when you say every 3-4 hours how much. do you measure it or use the tip of a teaspoon handle or????

I'm a virg...I mean newbie at egg layers. lol

Andy


----------



## Toby_H

bbs = Baby Brine Shrimp... typically referring to live hatched (although frozen cubes are also available but have weaker results).

I feed my fry live BBS with a turkey baster... When I first start I can clearly see how eagerly the fry are eating... I doubt they will ever 'stop' accepting live hatched BBS, but I can see a reduction in their eagerness... this is when I stop feeding (as one turkey baster full of BBS can vary somewhere in the billions, I see no way to extimate the volume of BBS to fee, plus I feel the fish's behavior is a much better indicator).

I will confess I've never bred Rams, but caring for SA/CA Cichlid fry doesn't change much from species to species with the exceptions of starting size and growth rates... with some exceptions such as mouth brooders...


----------



## Dutch Dude

Andy,....over here there is an in-tank bbs hatchery available. Most of them get exported from Germany. The hatchery is labeled as "naupli star". I suggest to check Google for a on line store. It works fine for me and once a day I ad some eggs and once a week I clean the hatchery. The system will provide constant bbs when the lights in the tank are on.


----------



## D-007

The hatchery Dutch Dude is referring to is available in the USA from Dr's F&S. Link is below and I hope that helps 

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... atid=10692


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## Supercoley1

Well she didn't let him help. Silly of her because I think they became too much for her to defend once they started swimming rather than shuffling on the bottom and they've all gone now.

Quite hard for 1 fish to defend such small wrigglers from Tetras and other Rams etc.

Better luck next time I hope. At least it shows me now that my params are perfect for breeding.

I've seen the BBS hatcherys on ebay. May invest in one next time if they are not too domineering (remember the scape still has to look good. lol)

Until I can afford financially and logisticaly to have another tank then I have nowhere really to keep the youngsters anyway.

Was nice to see my fish are healthy and productive though.

Andy


----------



## cichlidaholic

It's frustrating to watch them go through all that work and then lose them, isn't it? 

When I siphon my fry off, I start them out in a 5G, then as soon as they are large enough for me to catch them, I move them up to a 10G...Usually a couple of months elapse between tank changes. I find that if I put them in too large of a tank, I lose more of them. I don't know why that is...Maybe they don't get enough bbs to start out with???

Here are some semi-decent pics of mine that I took tonight:

I think the little one is getting scolded!










This is the "outsider" of the adults that doesn't have a mate - I think it's a male, but I'm probably wrong...I lost one a couple of weeks ago for some strange reason, right around the time the other pair spawned.










I'd be interested in hearing what you think is the sex of these two:



















Mine are preparing to spawn again...They're averaging every 3 weeks now, but I still can't tell which is the male and which is the female unless I'm watching the spawn. :wink:

Kim


----------



## Supercoley1

I think the last 3 pics are all females personally but I am no expert lol.

I don't have room for another tank yet and the iwfe refuses to have fish tanks in bedrooms etc so at the moment I shall just have to keep watching them breed and then lose but one day maybe I can get my 8G Nano done (that I have been planning for a long time but something always comes up to use the money)

Andy


----------



## blairo1

My P. Taeniatus fry were fed 100% First Bites and my survival rates were absolutely fantastic, I think it's pretty decent stuff if you can't get/be doing with bbs, although the amount of bbs generated and the minimal effort required to hatch them means it's really just a matter of choice, I found the first bites were easier for very small fry to eat initially, whereas at that early a stage some found bbs to be a little too big ( during that first week of feeding.)

Kim, Andy is about spot on there, three females, the outcast would be better determined with a side shot, but from what is visible, female.....

Just out of interest, do any of you sleep, ever, because this thread is like a starbucks, the same people are there every day, before you arrive, and after you go, so much so that you wonder if they _ever_ leave.....  Nice to see the thread is still busy as ever!


----------



## cichlidaholic

blairo1 said:


> Just out of interest, do any of you sleep, ever, because this thread is like a starbucks, the same people are there every day, before you arrive, and after you go, so much so that you wonder if they _ever_ leave.....  Nice to see the thread is still busy as ever!


Sleep? What's that? :lol:

Well, you've both confirmed why I am confused about sexing these fish...

The last two pics are my breeding pair! One of them has to be a male. I've got the fry to prove it! The only time I can tell who is who is when I'm watching the female lay eggs. As they are right now, I cannot tell any differences between the two of them, and since their markings change with their mood, I can't even find any distinguishing traits to help me tell who is who between spawns. But I know for a fact that the last two pics _are_ my pair. And for what it's worth, I thought they both looked like females, too.

The "outcast" still hangs out on the opposite side of the tank where it used to spawn with the one that died.

One of the pair (who knows which one) goes over often to "visit", which never happened when the other one was alive, so I'm betting that's my male and he's setting up house on the other side of "town" with his girlfriend. :roll:

Men...

Kim


----------



## blairo1

Well Kim the one above last does have a tapered vent but it is very large for a male (this is the one I suspect is male) whereas the last pic, of the female, the vent points downwards more - if in doubt compare the angles of the vent - males will always have a shallower angle to their vent than females......

But yes they are very similar looking indeed eh, enough to trick me at a glance!!


----------



## cichlidaholic

I wasn't trying to trick you, Blair...

Just trying to see if I was stupid! :lol:

My vision isn't what it used to be, which I'm sure Ruurd will point out any time now! 

Kim


----------



## edburress

I fell for that too, I thought both vents looked female but agree the second to last picture is almost certainly the male that just has a large vent.

I also suspect the three fry that made their way into the pictures are all females.

*Blair*....Sorry for the delay but I finally got some pictures of a few of my fry, they are 8 months old, and range in size from 1.25" to 1.5". Pardon the algae in the grow out tank, it gets a good deal of natural sun :roll:

Female after bickering with another female (angle makes head shape look odd but the next shows it correctly) 








same female before she got worked up, less color but this picture shows her head shape and straight spine well. She's about 1.25"








This is the largest of the group, also female, about 1.5". She hates the red light on the camera so I couldn't get a side shot.








Two pictures of the one spot male. In the picture his colors aren't great. He's about 1.5", and really calm and unaggressive.
















I still have a group of 12, as far as I can tell only three males and nine females. The large female has very good color but seems to get pushed around by the smaller ones. Here is a video of two females bickering over territory. Both these females are 1.25" and have a very fiery attitude and should make great parents, I hope they will pair up with the unaggressive males!
http://s191.photobucket.com/albums/z3/e ... V01760.flv
I know a lot of you have seen this pic, but for those who haven't here is the father for reference









I hope to eventually move nine of the fry into a 75g and keep them with a shoal of tetra and a shoal of corydoras hastatus. Cheers,

Ed


----------



## blairo1

Lovely, great stuff Ed and very entertaining.....

I love the shot of the female all puffed up, it's very funny when they strut around like that - the fighting face :lol:......

It's a shame that one spot doesn't have more colour but I bet he'll be a late bloomer, you can see the yellow breast starting to radiate through and he looks like a fantastic specimen, very healthy, fingers crossed he develops the strong colours of his dad. The largest female is cracking, I love it when you can see the yellow shimmer right up to their dorsal, a sign of a happy fish and good health.

So Ed, all great pictures of great fish, but which one is the mother of this stock!?

:thumb:


----------



## cichlidaholic

Ed, that male is absolutely stunning! No wonder all the girls like him!

I'm really wondering what I'm doing wrong, though. Those that snuck into the pics are also 8 months old, and although several of them are starting to show some nice colour in their fins and bodies, they are nowhere near the size of yours. I would say my largest from that clutch is no more than an inch.

For reference, how large are your adults? (Maybe I've got a smallish breeding group...I know they are well fed!)

Kim


----------



## edburress

Kim....Thanks! My female is 2.25" and the male is 2.75". Ruurd said my fry are a little ahead on growth, so I wouldn't worry about your fry. I only fed them First Bites until they were 12 weeks old, and then started crushing up shrimp pellets and switched them over to that.

Blair....Thanks for the comments, they are entertaining to watch. I also hope the males will be late bloomers, all three look almost identical and only show a small amount of yellow in their chest. For whatever reason, several of the females are looking great!

The mother of the batch doesn't like the red light on my camera so I don't have any great pictures but here are two of the better ones. She gets overlooked in my posts and really she does all the work :lol: In these pictures she is about 1.75"








and here is her and the male having a marital dispute (there clutch is on the other side of the branch, under the male, so their colors are faded some)








She doesn't have the blues that the male does, but she has a nice yellow chest and orange in her fins. I am glad she colored up, she was really greenish-grey for several months when I first got her.

Ed


----------



## curt_914

I Have another Spawn!! Happened on sunday and we will see what the story is when I get home. I do have some pics of my Pair and will post them later. Will keep you all posted. Unfortunitly they are still in the 10. If anyone in colorado needs some good fish let me know. I am keeping the pair for sure and mabye a second when I find them. Otherwise I will have 4 fish that will need a good home. in the next couple months. The 55 is going to be for 10 Cacatouides I am getting on thursday. And the 20 will be my ram home.

Curt


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## peterl

regarding this post:

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... highlight=

Last week, I put a small piece of slate next to the depression the female dug. Today I have somewhere near 100 eggs on it! :dancing:


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## conoholic

baught my first ram ( angel ram ) a few days ago along with 2 angel fish ( one died and other one is still alive and doing great along with the ram )


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## edburress

Hey BRC members,

My bolivian article is finished, here's the link...
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/b ... sa_pt1.php

It isn't up on the site yet, but this is the final version and should be up at some point. Thanks Robert and Eric for making it happen! and thanks Ruurd (Dutch Dude) and Peter (Deadfishfloating) for the initial feedback on the rough draft.

Any feedback: positive, negative, goofy, all is welcome.

Ed


----------



## D-007

Great article and great pictures ... well done and thank you for doing it! opcorn:


----------



## dwarfpike

It took a couple of hours to make it past those first two pics  ... but it is very detailed! :thumb: Excellantly done. Two thumbs up. :thumb: :thumb:

And I assume the info is good ... having never bred them yet ...


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## blairo1

Hehe, very good Ed, I love that last picture of the article, probably one of my favourites of your pics I've seen.

Nice and detailed, interesting to read a bit more in-depth about the way in which _you've_ gone about prepping them etc, it should really help out a lot of people new to the site, and I'm sure some long-term members along the way. I have to say that since the formation of the BRC and all of the work that's gone into it from all sides, there's undoubtedly been a boom in new Bolivian Ram owners, certainly to this site and to a couple of others that I frequent occasionally.

I think generating this much attention and interest to these fish has really enabled us to help them in the most effective way possible, I've generally noticed an increase in healthy stock of Bolivians and if you ask me, it's because people _do_ have this information and knowledge available, so they are better educated and informed, the result of which is a demand and desire for better quality. Hopefully the increasing demand for better quality reaches far enough to affect the mainstream breeders, forcing an improvement.....

I hope.

Great article Ed.
:thumb:


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## cichlidaholic

Great job, Ed!

So nice to see a man agree that the woman is in charge! :lol:

Your pics are just amazing!

I'm so glad to see this little species getting the attention it deserves!

Kim


----------



## Compressed

:lol: I can not believe this thread is still going :lol: Fish on People....Fish on!


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## Dutch Dude

I quickly drop a line in here. I'm very busy right now so a lack on time to spend a lot of time on the board. I hope you all understand.

I do want to respond to the article of Ed,.....you have done a magnificent job Ed and realy a nice article abouth breeding Bolivians! I realy like the pics and just like Blair,....the last one is realy stunning. Not only the fish but it also show the bond between both fish. I hope it will soon be added to the Bolivian profile and library.

It is good to notice people show more interest in Bolivians. They used to be the boring gray fish no one noticed in the lfs. I hope treats like the BRC help people understand that some species just don't look great in the shops but gain in beauty in your home aquarium. Except for the good looks, Bolivians turn out to be a quit hardy fish that are fun to watch, especially in small groups they show some realy nice, interesting and fun behaviour. I wish some species like Guianacara will get the atention in the future. This is also a specie that deserves to be noticed by people in the hobby.

Ed thanks for your great article and you have done a very nice job :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


----------



## cichlidaholic

Thought some of you might like to see this video of the "new" pair spawning:






It seems my male has enough energy to keep up with both females.

He spawned with the female who recently lost her mate, and the following day he spawned with his old mate.

The spawn in the video didn't last, though. The male was too busy chasing after the other female trying to get her in the mood, and this mom just isn't any good at guarding the eggs, even though she looks like she has it all under control!










Kim


----------



## infotech

I have one male Bolivian Ram. My female didn't make it through a bought with pop-eye. I'd like to get another female, but I'm concerned about how they'll get along.

What is the best way for me to proceed? Can I buy one female, or should I get more than one and let the male have his pick? If so, how many? I have a 20 Gallon Long with 5 Rummy Nose, 5 Harlequins, and 5 Coreys.

Thanks!


----------



## infotech

I decided to get just one. They seem to be getting along so far.


----------



## blairo1

Hi infotech, you could always add another couple of females and a male if you find the single female is having a hard time coping (or vice versa). Just keep an eye on them, how densely aquascaped is the tank?

Anyhow I've been throwing together a little website to host video's of my fish so that friends and family can watch them in one, organised place. It'd be nice if you guys would check it out, read through it and let me know what you think (there's a guestbook on the site). Basically the video's on there at the moment (only 6) are lower quality but it's to get the ball rolling. I've ordered a load of plants and once they arrive I'll be making high quality videos like the tester available on the homepage of my site, hosting them for download so that if you like the smaller video preview, you can download the hi-res full screen version (without it being a huge file either ).

Just something I did for fun, I might have to throw together a BRC website, so I'll be asking for vid and pic submissions from you all :lol: - evil laugh....

Right-o:

http://www.blairo.moonfruit.co.uk/

Visit it!!
:thumb:


----------



## infotech

Blair,

That's a nice site! With the Ram I just added, I now have a pair again. They seem to get along just fine. She has a tendency to nip at the Corey Cats but the two haven't been nipping at each other, yet.

They are great fish. What are the signs to look for when purchasing a new one?

My tank is pretty densely planted on both sides and a little more open in the middle.


----------



## infotech




----------



## blairo1

Hiya mate, nice tank and it should do the pair well in there!

I'm sure they'll enjoy themselves plenty :lol:. I don't think I'd change anything unless you start having problems in which case I'd simply add a few more plants and or driftwood. I've been putting together a website for the Bolivian Rams Club so if you'd like to check it out:

www.BRC.moonfruit.com

On it you will find the articles section where you can view the article written by Ruurd (DutchDude) and myself (which can also linked to via my signature on this site) as well as my Sexing Guide to help you in determining the sex of the fish in question. (I assume that's what you meant by your last question?)

:thumb:


----------



## infotech

Thanks for the vote of confidence!

The male started nipping and chasing the female so I bought some more water sprite and moved some stems of the existing plants just a bit to make each side a little more dense in front of the root and left it pretty open behind them.


----------



## ElPorcoRoso

Hi BRC,

My dominant male has been acting strange for the last few weeks. He hasnt been eating much even when blood worms drop right infront of his face. He hasnt been courting his female either. His coloration looks good, no stress marks but he seems to have lost interest in doing much of anything cept hiding, unlike my other rams.

Is this typical behavior? He used to be so active and territorial. I wouldnt be so upset if my female would mate with any other male but she seems to prefer her now catatonic mate.

What can I do?


----------



## Dutch Dude

This isn't typical behaviour! Sounds to me like a health problem. Did you changed something in the tank or perhaps added new fish recently? How does his poo looks like?


----------



## ElPorcoRoso

His poo looks whitish, but *** just noticed this today so I'll keep looking. He also looks like he's 'coughing,' flicking his lips in a rapid motion. I havent added anything new to the tank in many months and I do regular water changes...


----------



## Dutch Dude

Whitish poo can be 2 things,....one, intestinal worms,....two, flagellates (couse of Bloat).

Intestinal worms are a common thing on fish that feed on live foods like tubifex. The fish feed a lot but slowly become skinny. Sometimes you can see red things (worms) hanging out of the anus. Most worms can be treated with Flubendazole 5%. This is a mild medicine that is quit save in use even at a higher dose. It doesn't kill flatworms unfortunately. But most worms are segmented worms and they will be killed by Flubendazole.

Fish with flagellates often start to become les active, spit out food, and finally refusing food. You have to treat it as soon as possible. Once a fish stops feeding it will be very hard to combat flagellates. Best way is to put it in a quarantine tank and add the normal dose of Metronidazole (Metro) to the water and soak some food like flakes or small pellets in a mix of metro and tank water. The medicated food will combat the flagellates from the inside. Thats why it is so important to start the meds before the fish refuses to feed. Keep in mind that only 2 meds are effective on Bloat. The most common is Metronidazole and the second one is Dimetronidazole. Next stage of the illness is hanging in a corner, clamping fins, balance problems, bloated belly, and final death.

So does the symptoms of the illness fit one of the above?


----------



## blairo1

Guys and gals!

Newbs and Vet's, I'm copying this here from a message I sent to Kim because I worded it well and didn't want to try it a second time and come out with babble, but I need all of your help!

I'm burnt out today, had a mad few days rushing around and trying to keep up with the surge in interest of the Bolivian Rams Club website (400+ views, not bad for an unlisted site in 72 hours!!)

So I'm taking a day off before I even start putting together the picture submissions page, I have a good few so far but I feel more encouragement is in order from/though other members via the BRC thread as it's not meant to be selective - *anyone* can email me pics, new or old, especially if they have a prime example of both ends of the spectrum - the healthy fish and the weak/hormoned/deformed fish as these pics will be incredibly useful in producing the factsheet type document regarding selecting the best specimens.....

Come on, don't be shy individuals, get snapping and become a part of the clan, remember I am fairly capable with photoshop so if a shot is everything you wanted but slightly soft on focus, I can work with it, don't be afraid of the quality or quantity, submit submit, submit! No-one is judging, I aim to give everyone who submits a picture "air time" so if you do send a pic and don't see it up with the first lot, don't be disheartened, it's only because I will have run out of room for the moment (remember I am still limited to the size of the site, once I have funding I can expand it and this will no longer be an issue).


----------



## Dutch Dude

Sorry Blair,....I don't see a thing,..only a black screen with a small white line around it :?


----------



## blairo1

Eh?

At the website:
http://brc.moonfruit.com/

Seems fine for me, do you have anything blocking the flash? I run something which checks the site regularly to make sure it has not gone offline and this will tell me if it's been off at any point so let me go check.

Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean Ruurd. You're confusing me! :lol:

E2A - nope, my site monitor is showing 100% uptime with no outages (checks every 60 mins).... It may be that I was in the process of making some changes/checking things through the admin account and that may have put it down for the time I was doing the checks....

Blair.


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## Dutch Dude

I'm not sure what causing the problem. I checked it quickly and it was there. I closed the window and went back 10 minutes later and only the black screen. I can see no reason for this and I don't have troubles at viewing other sites.



> Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean Ruurd. You're confusing me!


 hahaha,..like always Blair :wink:

Good to see there is also a pic of Ed at the main page! :thumb:


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## blairo1

As long as it's working now then that's ok! Have you tried it since then?

It's been getting a stream of hits all day so hopefully it was only a temporary thing whilst I made changes :? . Otherwise I will have to try and investigate further. On another forum people have been viewing the site and leaving me comments since then so I'm not too sure what happened!

Weird....

Hey I've got someone who wants to submit a pic to the site and it's of F1 Bolivians, a very nice example, so I have permission to host that and with any luck we can also get pics of their fry, apparently they've just had their first practice spawn! Kim, Ed and a few others have made great submissions so we're getting there! Ruurd, I'm sure you have some other pictures I've not used/seen/had access to (when you get the time bud, I know you're busy) which would be appreciated....

This is my list, so any help.....

1. A factsheet that will cover the basics of ensuring you purchase quality stock by providing "check-points" if you will, so that the aquarist is better informed with readily available information AT the fish store (ie what to buy, what to avoid, what to ask)....

2. Aquascaping examples - pictures showing nicely aquascaped tanks with Bolivians that are clearly thriving, each as an example of the type of suitable aquascape (ie different size tanks, different styles, whatever)....

3. An article regarding the treatment of illnesses to ensure that IF people you run into problems, they know exactly what to do.

Those are just a few things that I would like to put together and add to the site on top of the others already mentioned! Obviously if you help you get credited, even if it's just to submit your aquascape photos for use as in point 2.

:thumb:


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## D-007

I've got a picture of a deformed Bolivian to help with part 1 of your list if you want  ... the original post was on page 71 of this thread and is the 4th post from the bottom of the page.


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## blairo1

PM sent bud.... Check your inbox!


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## Dutch Dude

Blair,...I love to add some stuff and willing to write to but at the moment I'm to busy for that. I check in the weekend If I can make or find some nice pics of my tank set-up and or fish. But I can't promise anything at the moment.

In the meantime I checked the site and it was normally displayed. So maybe I visited the site 2 times while you were making changing.

By the way,....D-007,....I have had deformed Bolivians as well so nothing to be ashamed of. I probably have some pics as well of a deformed head and bended spine


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## edburress

My 9 1/2 month old fry spawned today. They were courting actively yesterday so I put two small pieces of slate where they were displaying and today they laid eggs. A really small spawn, only 64 eggs but the female is only 1 1/4" TL.

They aren't being too aggressive and have been alternating fanning shifts. The male did leave the female for a few hours today but started checking on the eggs occasionally and now has started fanning them again. There are more maturing bolivians in the grow out tank so I don't expect the spawn to be successful but I still have some hope.

Interestingly, they did not cover the eggs in sand like their parents do. My other adult pair also does this, so I am not sure if they don't know what to do, or if they simply didn't feel the need to cover them.

Hopefully the clutch will still be intact in the morning. Here are a few pictures, they are poor quality because of the lighting but I will get better ones tomorrow.

Ed


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## blairo1

Hehe Ed that made me chuckle, randy little blighters, they're not waiting for anyone are they!!!

Is that my favourite male? The one with the inflatable head? :lol: He's obviously a stud - if the heater breaks does he bang it and say "aaaaayyyyy :thumb: ".....

(Fonz)


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## edburress

*blair*....you're right they aren't waiting on their siblings or me to get them out of the growout tank :lol: This morning the eggs were gone like I predicted. I noticed when I cut the lights out that they sat near the eggs but did not continue to closely attend to them, so I figured they would get eaten overnight by the other fish. Ohh well, they will have many more chances to get it right, hopefully they learned something :lol: As soon as I can identify three pairs I will separate them out into their own tank away from the others.

Ed


----------



## blairo1

Sorry they lost the spawn Ed but mate, they're just getting started and from the looks of things, good luck getting them to stop! :lol:

:thumb:

So I may have sourced some WC Bolivians straight from the fisherman in Bolivia.......

Waiting, seeing, hoping........


----------



## Dutch Dude

Ed,....nice youngsters :thumb: They are grown nicely and this was their first spawn and many many more to come. It took mine quit some time to get it right but now they do I have constantly a breeding couple. Two pair are breeding right now and the third is preparing a spawn. All on the right side of the tank!

Blair,....some wilds would be realy great!!! They are realy rare and not much fish coming from Bolivia. So if you can get a hold on them would be great.


----------



## mcflyyy

Hey Dutch Dude, Blaire and everyone else who's helped me out recenty,

About a month ago I was asking advice about making my rams a bit more comfortable. It took awhile but I've just set up a brand new 4ft setup with a sand substrate (old tank had a very large gravel) also added a couple more rams so now I have 6. 
I just wanted to let everyone know that after being in the new tank for about 2 days they are all so much happier, much brighter colours and more active. :dancing: 
Thanks everybody for your advice! :thumb:

Next thing I need some advice on his how to convince my girlfried that in addition to 2x 4ft tanks in the living room and office, maybe a 6ft would look great in the kitchen...

Thanks again all,
Mcflyyy


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## Dutch Dude

Good to hear it all worked out and the fish already show stronger coloration and look happy :thumb: Do you have pics of the fish and the tank?



> Next thing I need some advice on his how to convince my girlfriend that in addition to 2x 4ft tanks in the living room and office, maybe a 6ft would look great in the kitchen...


 :lol: pay more atention to her as to the tanks, take her out for lunch, give her flowers and some nice but small presents, go out to the movies,.....at first she will expect you cheated on her becouse your atention is overwhelming. Just ignore or say noooo honey of course not! She will have even stronger suspicion of you cheating on her. So after a couple of days you want to talk with her. Tell her your struggling in your mind for soooo long and don't know how to explain it to her,.....and at the moment she becomes realy stressed you tell her you realy, realy, realy,...... want a 6 ft tank in the kitchen! She will be so relieved that it is only abouth a tank that she will say yes!

Well,....would it work? I don't know. Maybe this is the reason why I am single :wink:


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## mcflyyy

:lol: :lol: :lol: 
I'm sure that method has it's advantages, just not certain it would work in my case! I might give it a shot though, I really want that tank 

Cheers,
Mcflyyy

ps will post some pice when I get my act together


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## blairo1

Yeah, just wear a cup in case she jumps the gun......

:thumb:


----------



## mcflyyy

Good call Blaire, you must have met her!


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## rachelchick

Hey! I'm sure the info is somewhere on here, but it's WAY late and this may just be easier. I've got a pair of bolivians that I've had for about a year or so. My male has been dancing for my female for many, many months and today they spawned for the first time! I'm SO HAPPY!!! I took some pictures, played around on the computer, and then went back and checked on them. At first I thought the eggs were gone, then I realized they had covered most of the eggs with sand. I just looked through this thread and saw that someone had mentioned recently that this is normal behavior?  I don't really know what to expect. ---- I've also currently got some clown loaches in the tank, do you think any of the eggs/fry will survive? If not, how often do bolivians spawn (considering, of course, that conditions are right?)?


----------



## rachelchick

Second question:
If you had to sex this fish, would you not think it's a female?

















EVERYONE (my bolivian pair, my cacatuoides pair) in the tank chases this fish around (obviously you can see the stress spots). It took my pair so long to spawn that I thought I'd give my male another choice. He has never acted even REMOTELY interested in this gal. Weird. Do you think I ought to just move this fish out of the tank? No damage has been done at all, but I feel bad that she's kind of out of the loop . . .


----------



## edburress

rachelchick....congrats on the spawn :thumb: You're right, sometimes the males have to work very hard to get the females attention :lol:

Both my adult pairs cover their eggs in sand 30-60 minutes after the spawn, and usually uncover them late the next day. My young pair recently chose not to cover the eggs. I figure it is a good sign when they do since it shows they have some instincts of what to do. For about a year my pairs spawned every 3-4 weeks, now they seem to have slowed down a little and now spawn every 4-5 weeks.

I don't keep loaches but I would assume they would actively eat the eggs.

Your picture is a female. You are right, she does have stress spots so it might be good to remove her. But at the same time, she may be diverting some aggression away from the other female, so I am not sure. Also, after this spawn there is always a chance the male will try and spawn with her to see which female is the strongest. What is your tank size? If you tank is large enough for the two pairs, simply adding some more cover or sight breaks might be plenty to limit the aggression towards this female without removing her.

Ed


----------



## rachelchick

I'm glad that this sand covering thing isn't just something nutsy MINE decided to do!!  And the eggs made it through the night! Even this morning with my loaches swimming around, there were no little scuffles - so good news for me! We'll see how they fair! :?

I noticed after adding this other female that the one I had was far more interested in the male than she was before(they became inseparable), so maybe adding her to the tank was a good catalyst for them spawning. I think I may leave her in, but probably a good idea to try to break up the tank better so she can have some of her own space . . .


----------



## Dutch Dude

Congrats on the spawn!

My fish always cover the eggs with sand to. They uncover them abouth 24 hours before hatching. My fish are 1.5 years of age (fry of my previous Bolivians) and spawn every 2 to 4 weeks. I keep them in a tank with 7 of them, 250 cherry shrimp and 9 Oto's. So far they only managed to raise 1 fry! I have some suspicions towards the Oto's feeding on the resting fry during the night. The one fry I also suspect to feed on his baby brothers and sisters. If you definitely want to raise some fish you could siphon them out at the age of 1 week and raise them yourselves in a small tank and move them to a larger tank once they start to grow. Keep in mind that it is a lot of work (feed at least 5 times a day with bbs and first bites of Hikari and that they need this care for at least 5 months before they can be sold. It is a lot of fun to see them grow and develop.

For some reason I don't see the pic


----------



## lestatak

I have four Bolivian Rams in a 30 gallon with very dull coloring. What can I do to get their coloring up? They are less than a year old but not sure thier exact age. They share thier tank with 25 cardinal teras and 6 corydoras.


----------



## cichlidaholic

What are you feeding them?

What kind of substrate are you using?

Do you know the sexes?

What else is in the tank with them?

Kim


----------



## ShawnStanley

Do you have to use sand with Bolivian Rams or will they still be happy with a black gravel substrate? I really do not want to use sand.


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## cichlidaholic

You don't have to use sand, but I've kept them with fine gravel, and I've kept them with sand, and they certainly seem to prefer the sand. They are from the eartheater family, so of course, they prefer something they can easily sift, and those little mouths aren't too big.

Kim


----------



## lestatak

What are you feeding them? Flakes, algae pellets.

What kind of substrate are you using? Sand

Do you know the sexes? No

What else is in the tank with them? 3 small and growing bn plecos, 25 cardinal tetras and recently added 6 corydoras from my big tank due to fear of my growing oscars eating them.


----------



## rachelchick

lestatak

Mine really prefer to have a lot of plants and places to hide and have territories. You might have too many in the tank for them to each have their own place? Also, I'm pretty sure that they are carnivorous, so I don't know if the algae pellets are really helpful.


----------



## lestatak

I will feed them more shrimp pellets. Trouble is they seem to always stay near the bottom of the tank. Would a little beefheart be good for them? The tetras seem to out battle them for food.


----------



## edburress

They are not carnivorous, actually they really enjoy green foods! I feed mine zucchini two times per week. Other than that, a quality shrimp pellet is a good core food or any quality sinking cichlid pellet, and occasional frozen is a good treat. The tetra will tear at the zucchini, but won't really eat it, so the rams should be able to get all of that for themselves. If they eat the algae pellets I'd just keep feeding it to them :lol: I wouldn't feed them beef heart.

If you could post pictures we could sex your fish for you. Clear profile shots from the side are best.

Ed


----------



## rachelchick

Hooray for OMNIVORES!


----------



## edburress

:lol:


----------



## rachelchick

Question - my eggs - mentioned earlier - have hatched and are now wigglers. I'd like to see if my pair can raise any of them in this community tank. (I know it's probably unlikely, but it'd be great if they could. Has anyone had any luck with it?) Can someone tell me what to expect? - I've never had any of my fish spawn before. I start feeding them once they are free swimming? and how often?


----------



## edburress

Congrats :thumb:

I suggest the long answer, and just read my article :lol:

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/b ... sa_pt1.php

But quick answer...the parents not eating the eggs is a great start! The fry will start swimming on the 7th day, and you can feed live BBS, frozen BBS, or a powdered food like First Bites. It is in detail in the article but generally a small amount every 3 hours. Depending on where they are being kept, a small pipette or eye dropper might be needed to get the food to the fry.

Since it is their first spawn I would just let them practice and see how they do. Eventually it might be necessary to remove some fry to raise on your own but their first few spawns ideally just let them get some parenting experience.

Ed


----------



## rachelchick

hey, just wanted to thank you for the info! I've searched this site for information and somehow never came across that article! Very helpful! Hey, just wondering - have you ever raised fry in a community tank? Just wondering. I really don't feel like setting up a baby tank right now - would any survive if I just left them where they are? - Assuming, of course, that they all don't get eaten. -- The parents are actually do REALLY well! They defend their little babies vigorously.


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## cichlidaholic

I've never been able to raise one single ram fry in a community tank, and I bet mine have spawned 20-25 times. One set make really good parents, but once the fry start free swimming, within a couple of days they get brave enough to move out too far, and the parents lose track of them...

It's easy enough to siphon them off and move them, but you do have to be diligent with their care and need another tank.

Kim


----------



## rachelchick

Yeah, I just don't think I'm up for babysitting another tank right now --- I've got three babies of my own - I don't need to be cleaning another tank at the moment. The fry are definitely fewer in number each day, but oh well! I'm still proud of how well the parents guard over them!


----------



## cichlidaholic

It's hard to find a good set of ram parents these days.

I have one set that could care less and give up before they are even wigglers, and another set that will take on anything to protect their fry.

I'd say you're lucky to have a pair that you _know_ you can salvage fry from in the future when you're ready. :thumb:

Kim


----------



## IN2_Rams

A little history on my tank since this is my first post here. Got a bad case of ick about a year ago that wiped out my tank. Stumbled onto Bolivian Rams at PetCo and fell in love with them.

I have 5 rams in a 38gal, and they all enjoy their various places of the tank. Their tank mates include my Opline Gourami (the only survivor of the ick outbreak!), 4 corys, 2 butterfly hillstream loaches and my kulii. So, except for my survivor and my affection for unusual loaches, I'm moving towards the SA theme...

Are there some other tank mates that I should consider like Hatchets or so? If I add something else, I'll wait until my old Gourami kicks the bucket unless someone says otherwise.

Thanks for the input!


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## Dutch Dude

I'm very limited in time so I haven't been that much around the last month or so. It is good to see the BRC is still going on and questions still get answered. :thumb:

IN2-rams,.....welcome at the BRC!
Your current tank sounds like a nice community tank. A tank were the Bolivians perfectly fit. The current stock level is OK. Adding new inhabitants depends on the new fish and number and the filtration and water changing regime. Hatches and almost every tetra will be fine. I suggest to keep away from the fin nibbling type like Buenos Aires tetras for example. Oto's are a great addition as well. Bolivians don't pay much atention to tetras so you can add even the smaller species like Neon's. Considering your current stock level I expect that you have some room left for a school of 8 to 12 tetras. I do suggest to do a 50% water change every weak to compensate for the higher stock level.


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## curt_914

Hey Guys I need to get rid of 4 of my Rams. Please check out my add in the tradeing post. I am keeping 2 pairs so I will still have some.

Curt


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## jcushing

just thought id add i picked up 6 rams for my 110g. seems a bit rough so far, they are all more interested in their "turf" then eating. 3 of them have eeked out pretty firm homes, the other 3 kinda float and get bumped from 1 territory to the next. ill try and get some pics going cause im curious to know my M/F ratio. theres not one in there that stands out to me one way or the other and *** read the sexing guide like 5 times.


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## edburress

Sounds like they are behaving like bolivians :lol: They will bicker until they get the lines drawn for their territories. In that size tank they will have plenty of room so I wouldn't think you'll have any problems after they get settled. Feeding seems to be a common issue with new bolivians but as long as you have a quality sinking food they should pick up on it rather quick. Pics would be great!

Ed


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## jcushing

im using omega 1 sinking shrimp pellets, i got 1 ram about 2 weeks ago and i was waiting for the others to come in at the store and it? has been gobbling them up. the new ones are the oens that arent eating but they are quite a bit larger than the first one. that hasnt stopped it? from being a real terror though, it? claimed about half the tank so i rearranged it a bit and it seems a bit better. i figure its just going to take time.

so far though there have been quite a few interesting battles though...


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## jcushing

tank shot its 5ft x 18" btw 110gal



best i could do on this guy/gal


this one is one of the more defensive, hes got a primo spot though


first one i added, and the smallest (has claimed like half the tank)


one of the floaters and some of his tankmates


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## blairo1

Hi everyone I hope all are well!

Just sticking my head in really to say I am still on the planet, I've started a new job so I'm insanely busy but I'm hoping things settle down again soon and I can get my weekends back! Need to update the BRC site! Argh, the time, the time!!


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## cichlidaholic

Slow down and take care, Blair!


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## DirtyBlackSocks

Can add myself to this thread.

I've got a 75 gallon heavily planted that is stock with:

A mated pair of angelfish (1 leopoldi, 1 sclarae "sunset")
2 wag tail platy's
5 congo tetra
5 bosemani rainbow's
6 blue ram
8 corydoras sterbae
4 clown loach
4 bushynose pleco's (1 veil tail albino male, 1 albino female, 1 gold finned veil tail black male, 1 regular female)
A few otto's
Some suriamensis

Most importantly, 6 bolivian ram.

The bolivian's are full grown wild caught specimins, in fact they're the largest ones I've ever come across and get a very nice deep green hue to their entire body.

Oddly enough the blue ram are nearly half their size and constantly bully them out of territories.


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## edburress

*jcushing*...#1 unknown, #2 male, #3 female, #4 male. None of the vents are visible in the shots but based on head shape and finnage I am certain of the last 3.

*Blair*...nice to see you on the boards again!

*DBS*...wild bolivians! Any exports from Bolivia are very rare these days, I'd love to see some pictures :thumb:

Ed


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## DirtyBlackSocks

I'll definitely get them up Ed.

These guys have very remarkable color that I've never seen in bolivians, a very deep greenish hue - similar to what you see in breeding insignis. That goes all the way through their face, almost like a green tin foil.

I don't think a camera will accurately capture the sheen it gives off, but it should at least show the difference.

I believe I've got 2 males and 4 females, judging by their vents and behavior.

Another thing I found interesting is that I originally had all 6 housed in a 29 gallon, and all of them were breeding and digging pits without fighting at all.

Now that they're in a larger community tank the males seem to square off all the time - though I think the blue ram's pushing them out of their ideal space might have somthing to do with it.

I'll get pics up tonight or tomorrow depending on time.


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## jcushing

so after looking at all my new additions i really think that they are all male, thats why i was having such a hard time figuring them out. how bad would that be? 5M 1F?


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## edburress

Well that's not a good ratio! In that size of tank it may not be a disaster but some of the fish will prove to be sub-dominant and probably won't show good color. I'd wait and see how they do together and consider trying to track down a few more females at some point and removing a few of the sub-dominant males too. Even 50/50 ratio is fine and a few extra females won't hurt anything.

Ed


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## jcushing

im thinking i might have to remove 2 of them, they dont seem to be dominant to muscle in on the females claimed territory on the left side of my tank and spend alot of time at the middle area of my tank. ill give em 2 weeks to settle in and go from there.

if i do pull them and replace them with 2 females that would put me at 3m/3f


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## fishkeeper93

im thinking of adding bolivian and german rams in my new 88gal 5ft tank what would the limit on how many each and what would the best ratio be


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## ChrisWalker

Hi all, long time no post.

Need some quick assistance, as my oldest male ram (had him about 20 months) seems to be sick. Symptoms.

- He's started breathing heavier and faster than the other rams.

- Shy and lethargic, not really coming out to eat, which isn't like him at all.

- Stress colours showing a lot of the time.

- I suspect he may have *Hole in the Head* disease, as such I'm doing more frequent water changes and have added melafix/pimafix. He has 2 small holes, one next to each eye, and I think another is opening on the front of his head. From what I've read, it's still early at this stage.

- As well as that, he also has some white pimples on the rear of his dorsal fin, they look a little like ich, but I know they're not. The older ones seem to have healed a little and aren't bumps anymore, but just white marks.

- He also had what can only be described as fluffy poo. A little like white stringy poo, only it looked broken and fuzzy. I've been treating with InterPet anti-internal bacteria too.

This isn't looking good for him but anything to help will be greatly appreciated. It's very distressing as he's my favourite fish.

The water quality is fine, my nitrates rarely get above 5! I'm strict with my water change routine and do about 30% per week.

Tank is 28 UK Gallons (33 US Gallons). The other 3 rams he shares with are all fine and their usual "show off" selves.

I just don't get it.

Thanks!


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## DirtyBlackSocks

White poo is an indicator of heavy stress, it means that the bad bacteria's and protozoans living within his intestinal tract have taken over as a result of a diminished immune system.

Are you sure he's not being picked on by the other rams? If that's not the case you're going to need to go over any recent changes - most importantly any new live additions that weren't quarantined.

As far as treatment, I would move him to his own tank and see if that improves his behavior and appetite - I would also get some New Life Spectrum Thera-A to start feeding him in hopes of keeping his guts moving and pushing those new parasites out.

If it continues to worsen I would treat him with some metro, as well as food that's been dipped in concentrated doses of metro.

You should also post about this in the disease/illness forum to get the best advice possible on this site - read the sticky posted at the top of the forum and answer all of the questions on there.


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## DirtyBlackSocks

Some pictures - this is immediately after a water change and the fish are a bit light in color by comparison, I'll see if I can get some more down the line after they calm down that show off how deep the green gets in them. Hope you enjoy.


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## cichlidaholic

Very nice...Just imagine how they'll look once they are settled in well!

Can we expect updates? :thumb:


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## DirtyBlackSocks

Updates as soon as they're showing their true coloration and I find time to take the pictures - the problem is this is a heavily planted tank with a very high stock - so I have to feed quite a bit, by day two of a water change there's quite a bit of food particle floating around in the water and it marrs the pictures.

I'll probably have some new ones up tomorrow or the next day to show the difference - I'm not sure the camera will capture entirely how great these guys look in person though, it's one of those sheens that you just can't get without looking in person.

There is a very large amount of green missing in most of those shots, though. Will definitely be getting some new ones up soon


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## eguthrie

Hi all. Sure have enjoyed reading this thread. A lot of interesting and useful information from so many Bolivian Ram experts.

I bought 2 Bolivian Rams about a month ago. They're so lively and feisty. I really love them. One is definitely a male, and I thought the other was a female, but not so sure now.

For the first 2 days after I purchased them, they seemed to be always following each other around the tank and courting. The male would sometimes kind of curl his body towards her, like he was displaying. But after that, the male got really aggressive and started chasing the female into hiding. Several days later she got braver, and now they each have staked out territories on opposite ends of the tank. They have faceoffs at this imaginary vertical line about two thirds from the left side of the tank. A few times they've done that liplocking thing, hanging on to each other for up to ~8 seconds.

Below are links to some pictures of the one I think is a female. She's doesn't show nearly the aggressiveness that the male does and has a more prominent vent than him. Can anyone tell definitively whether this is a female? And if so, is there any chance these 2 will reconcile?

http://mycast.orb.com/orb/data/image?mediumId=O3mVodAP&l=eguthrie&maxWidth=800&maxHeight=600

http://mycast.orb.com/orb/data/image?mediumId=OG906Gnc&l=eguthrie&maxWidth=800&maxHeight=600

http://mycast.orb.com/orb/data/image?mediumId=OAMufRaX&l=eguthrie&maxWidth=800&maxHeight=600


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## DirtyBlackSocks

It's hard to say based around the vent - though it is larger than what I would consider normal for a male - and the head says female to me.


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## eguthrie

Thanks DirtyBlackSocks. If it IS a female, given the antagonistic behavior between the 2 of them now, do you think there is a chance they will ever mate? Or if they don't get along now, does that mean they will never get along?


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## DirtyBlackSocks

Well she isn't showing stress coloration so I wouldn't worry too much - as long as they're both getting their share of food I'd say just leave them be and see how they sort things out.

She appears to be a young ram, so the male may want to breed while she is unable to produce eggs yet. It's very common, especially in South American's.

Fortunately bolivian's are pretty easy going on eachother and I don't see there being any huge problems from anything you're describing. I say leave them be and monitor their health - if their coloration and appetites degrade notably you need to either put in a divider or move one to a separate tank, but from my experience what you're describing is a female that simply isn't ready to commit to the task of breeding yet.

Males are always eager beavers


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## eguthrie

Hope you're right. I don't necessarily want to raise any young. I just want to see them go through the motions of interesting mating behavior.

Aside from the fact that each has staked out its territory, there's no harm to either. Both seem pretty comfortable with the situation.

Their feisty behavior is really fun to watch. They even try to shove the biggest clown loach, which is probably 10 times their weight. :lol:


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## edburress

DBS...nice looking rams. They have good shape and look like they are nice and big. The reddish color in the abdomen is unusual for bolivian rams, but it gives them a nice look! All of my rams also show the iridescent blue/green on their cheeks and snout, it is also the first color to develop in fry at as little as 3 weeks but then largely disappears until they are mature.

Keep updating, I am interested to see them when they are showing their full color :thumb: I also look forward to comparing notes on my spawns and spawning behavior to those of wild rams.

Ed


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## edburress

*Blair*....This is one of my fry from a spawn last August. One of the "one spot" fry and turns out when she is breeding she is basically a "three spot". I figured I'd get your blood boiling :lol: :lol: :lol: She may prove to be my most capable parent of the fry I raised. They still haven't raised any fry to free swimming but they do cover them in sand now and the eggs develop eyes and the last time they even hatched but then overnight they disappeared. Hopefully they will figure it out soon enough. The large male switches back and forth between three females but now seems to be sticking with this one. He doesn't help much with tending the eggs so I think the female just gets tired after 3 days and they get eaten.


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## Supercoley1

Not been on for a while. the adult pair had spawned twice. Then I spotted Cammallanus worms coming from both males (not the females surprisingly.)

I was sorting this out trying to source something suitable and bought some dog wormer with Flubendazole (or something like this) when disaster struck.

No it wasn't the fish dying from the worms!!!! My 3 year old son decided to wake up without waking his mother first and when she came downstairs she discovered this (I was at work!!)
















He had tried to copy Daddy but improvised. Instead of adding plant fertiliser he added washing up liquid!!! God know how much because this picture is 9-11 hours later than the event.

Needless to say all the fish were either floating on the surface or lifeless on the substrate  Even the Malaysian Trumpet Snails were lifeless too.

Pity because I was really enjoying the spawning/failure routine and hoping the next would work and observing etc.

Anyway rather than go into a sulk I got on with things and decided whilst cleaning out all the water to change the scape. Totally new design, new wood, same plants but in totally different arrangements. Don't think I will be using Cichlids this time. Maybe Black Corys, Zebra Otos and Zebra MicroRasbora but I thought I'd share it with you on here seeing as you have all helped me through the spell with the BRs:

Water still to clear a little plus the CO2 is on at killfishinstantly levels which means there are loads of miniature bubbles everywhere. No fish will be added for another month or so









Hope you like it. I will still come in here every now and then and see whats happening and many thanks for all your help with mine.

Andy


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## cichlidaholic

Oh, Andy! I remember those days...Let's see...My son gave my fish a glass of iced tea (no harm, but I was quick on the water change), a beer (another quick water change and a couple of losses) and finally, a grilled cheese sandwich that he didn't want to eat but couldn't figure out how to make it look like he _had_ eaten it. He simply _never_ thought of suds...

The tank looks beautiful now...Looks like you made the absolute best of a bad situation!

Give the little one a hug and maybe let him pick out a few fish this time around! :thumb:


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## DirtyBlackSocks

well guys I'm back out of the club 

I was given 8 wild sajica that I replaced the blue and bolivian ram with - did a complete rescape of my 75 gallon and passed the bolivian and blue ram onto a friend who now has them living (probably more happily) in a 120 gallon tank FULL of plants.


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## infotech

My female Bolivian Ram is starting to stick up for herself. For the past couple of months, the bigger male has chased her around the tank and basically made her fight for her food. Now, all of a sudden I see that she is starting to make her fins really big and start moving towards him very confidently and quickly before retreating back to where she happens to be chillin at the time. I guess she's starting to assert herself more.

Her colors are much better and all of the stress marks are gone. It's really good to see 

If he wants, he can (and does) chase her and make her go away, Like yesterday when she snuck up and at a huge clump of blood worms before he knew what was going on :lol: , but at least she isn't getting run all over the tank any more. :thumb:


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## cale262

82 pages later, I thinks I just found the fish for my newest tank :thumb:


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## Dutch Dude

Hey guys and girls. It's been a long time since I was here. I was to busy to keep up on the BRC treat and only rarely posted on this board. I have to do some real catching up on here becouse I missed quit some posts. Good to see questions are still answered and the post is still quit active.

Ed what a wonderful fish :thumb:

Andy,...sorry to hear abouth the lost  It is realy a pity you lost all the fish but seeing the pics and the foam on top of the tank there was no way they could have survived. I guess the washing up liquid is now in a closet with a lock? When your son is a bit older this story will probably make everyone laugh at birthday parties :wink: Your new set up is realy very good looking!!! I like it a lot Andy!!! It is just to beautiful not to put in some dwarf cichlids!!! Bolivians would fit but a harem of apisto's would also be very nice!!!

Kim,...


> ...Let's see...My son gave my fish a glass of iced tea (no harm, but I was quick on the water change), a beer (another quick water change and a couple of losses) and finally, a grilled cheese sandwich that he didn't want to eat but couldn't figure out how to make it look like he had eaten it. He simply never thought of suds...


 :lol: :lol: :lol:

DBS,...I probably missed something but your Bolivians get a new home becouse of the Guianacara? Good to know they do well in their new home and Bolivians do apreciate densely planted tanks.

Infotech,.....this sounds as normal behaviour of the female. You might keep an eye on them. I suspect her to become ready to spawn soon.

Cale,....


> 82 pages later, I thinks I just found the fish for my newest tank


 You reed everything??? Must have taken you a month or so, haha! Maybe you can tell us more abouth your tank and (future) inhabitants. If your tank is large enough I suggest 5 or more Bolivians.


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## cale262

Dutch Dude said:


> ...
> Cale,....
> 
> 
> 
> 82 pages later, I thinks I just found the fish for my newest tank
> 
> 
> 
> You reed everything??? Must have taken you a month or so, haha! Maybe you can tell us more abouth your tank and (future) inhabitants. If your tank is large enough I suggest 5 or more Bolivians.
Click to expand...

OK,... maybe I didn't read everything  ...I did spend a good solid two hours + skimming through the 82 pages of this thread (very inspiring by the way). I'm working on a moderately planted 36x20x12 with driftwood and shale which is cycled and waiting. I was planning on a few German Rams as I have some very limited experience with them (Long story, short answer, 5yrs ago, LFS: "No worries, Oscar's never eat other Cichlids" :roll: ) I have since decided 4 BR's, 3FM & 1M would be better with a few smaller tetra tankmates (LMK what U think). I'll post some pics when I get closer to ready :wink:


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## cale262

OK, closer to ready (=took a quick pic)...and very open to suggestions. Personally I'm thinkin a few smaller privacy plants...?


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## Dutch Dude

Cale,....a nice start of the tank! I think 4 Bolivians will be fine along with some nice tetras and some algea eating fish. It looks like you have put the plants in there and didn't removed them out of the baskets. Is that right? You could definitely use some more plants. Echinodorus or anubia's will be highly appreciated by Bolivians. Both species are in a lot of diferent types. Some large and growing over 20 inch and some small around 4 to 6 inch. I think some of the small once would be nice in front. The fish will take shelter underneath the leaves and even might spawn on them. You can remove the caves becouse Bolivians are substrate spawners. They mostly spawn on flat stones or driftwood.


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## cale262

Dutch Dude said:


> ... It looks like you have put the plants in there and didn't removed them out of the baskets. Is that right? ...


The plants were taken out of the baskets and most of the foam was removed being careful not to break any established roots,...I went out this afternoon and picked up some more plants from the LFS, I've removed the slate/caves and added more plants to the background, centre (Java moss) and front 1/3 including anubias,cryptocoryne (brown & green) and some hygrophila.

Thanks again for the input, I'd like to have everything in place b4 introducing the BR's to their new home :thumb:

Here's 33g v1.2... (lighting is not the greatest this time of day)


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## Dutch Dude

Looks better already and will gain in beauty when the plants grow out. If you put in new stem plants I suggest to cut the stems just above the foam. The foam is often drenched with phosphates / nitrate for plant growth. Thats one reason to get ride of the foam. The other reason is that it won't decay. Fresh cut stems will develop new roots in abouth a week or so.

I hope you keep on updating us and off course we like some pics when the fish are in the tank. :thumb:


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## cale262

Well I picked up 5 BR's 2day, I don't know if I'm going to keep all of them yet, we'll see how they get along for a few days and adjust accordingly...here's a couple of them checking out their new accomidations...


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## infotech

Well, it turns out my female has taken over the tank. I've had the suspicion for a few days and it was finally confirmed today at feeding time. The male finally crossed a line that neither of them do often, and she chased him away!  She has three quarters of the tank to herself. I noticed the change after I'd been away on a business trip for five days. When I left, the male was chasing her all over the place.


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## jcushing

dont feel bad that your males are pansys mine are too  , the smallest ram in my tank is a female thats younger than the rest but she claimed litterally half of a 5ft 110gal aquarium. she will chase away anyone and wont back down when shes inside her "turf". when shes out testing the borders on the outer limmits of her turf she will retreat back to her driftwood though. my most dominant male has only claimed maybe a 4"x4" square outside his "cave"


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## IN2_Rams

This may be a silly question, but is there any reason why Bolivians and Blues can't be mixed in the same tank (given size, territories, etc)?

Thanks!


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## edburress

*Ruurd*...Nice to see you on the boards again, the Guianacara thread has been hogging your attention :lol:

*jcushing* and *infotech*...I also have a few males that get pushed around, it annoys me but is also kind of funny. After they start breeding it actually works out good if the females are aggressive and the males are calm.

*cale262*...Nice progression of the tank, it already looks very good! I would examine the fish on the right of your picture. I think she has a bent spine near the base of the tail, a common deformity in bolivians. It may only be the angle of the pic but take a look at it. The other fish is a male and he looks good. I'd fatten them up a bit. Keep updating on the tanks progression :thumb:

*IN2_Rams*...The only thing to consider is the temperature difference. Blues prefer warmer temps like 82 and bolivians prefer slightly cooler, for example 77-78. bolivians are hardy and if you combine the two species set the tank up for the blues and the bolivians should be fine. If the tank is fair sized I wouldn't expect territories to be a problem. bolivians are very conspecific focused and probably won't pay much attention to the blue rams.

Ed


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## blairo1

edburress said:


> I also have a few males that get pushed around, it annoys me but is also kind of funny. After they start breeding it actually works out good if the females are aggressive and the males are calm.


Wow, now that would be nice, a calm male, shoot I've never seen one of those! :lol:



> If the tank is fair sized I wouldn't expect territories to be a problem. bolivians are very conspecific focused and probably won't pay much attention to the blue rams.
> Ed


Nope no problems whatsoever, I kept a pair of GBR's in my 55 with a group of Bolivians for quite some time and never had any issues.

I kept the water at a temp of 27.5C, KH2, GH 5, pH 6 and had spawns from both the ramirezi and altispinosa. You may find that the Blues aren't quite as colourful as they could be but it's a matter of compromise (or rather it can be). I do prefer to keep Blues to a species only tank in which I can provide "ideal" parameters, but it all comes down to personal preference. You may find that if you have a particularly boisterous Bolivian male he will push the Blues around but given appropriate space and aquascaping this is little more than a brief shooing off, IF you don't provide adequate cover the Blues will be harassed by particularly territorial Bolivians as they are unable to leave the line of sight....

On a side not, my rescue case Bolivian male is an absolute stunner, this guy is making my main male look pale in comparison, and the one spot on either side, win. 

Pictures, at some point (just to make you curious).


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## Dutch Dude

IN2rams,......why Bolivians and GBR are not the best mix is becouse of their diferent needs. GBR have the same needs as Discus. Very clean and soft slightly acid water of a temp of 82 to 86. Bolivians are the more tolerant and adaptive specie. They do well on a wide range of water parameters but the biggest issue is the high temperature. Bolivians live in the cooler waters in Bolivia near the border of Brazil. The best temperature for Bolivians is around 76. A temp of 80 is abouth the limit of being healthy. If they will be in a high temperature their lifespan will reduce definitely. A lower temp for the GBR can couse serious health issues. Bolivians do tolerate more and are the hardier specie so if you go along with this mix I suggest to put the temp at 82 and provide soft very clean acid water. It can be done but imo not the best mix.

Ed,....I still have limeted time but I'm occasionally on the board. My mom past away after a long period of being sick (cancer) so my time was spend on other stuff. The time I did spend here was indeed on the discus and Guianacara. Good to see the guianacara treat up again and I like to keep it there for a while so people notice this very interesting and peaceful specie. Nice to see you are still joining the BRC and thanks Ed for your welcome. Thanks mate. :thumb: How abouth your article by the way?



> I also have a few males that get pushed around, it annoys me but is also kind of funny.


 This is indeed funny and normal behaviour. No aggression but just the social behaviour in the group. This won't lead to troubles or injuries as long as the tank is large enough and as long as there are plenty of territorial markers like plants, small stones and driftwood. I think the quarreling within the groups keeps things in balance. When you add a pair in a smaller tank the "aggression"will be pointed towards one fish. Multiple fish will keep each other in line. That is one of the reasons I don't suggest to keep them in a harem (one male several females) but just make an equal mix of male and female. If the number of fish don't allow this I suggest to keep one extra female ( 2male and 3 female for example). Ill bet people disagree :wink:

Soooo,........Blair,...how are you doing bud? :wink: Yeah you know everything abouth more territorial males! It just depends on the fish and their mood. Sometimes females are dominant (mostly during spawning or raising fry) but this definitely can turn around and the males are the more dominant fish. In my experiences males are in charge,...until spawning!
So the rescue case male becomes a stunner,...pics up please


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## jcushing

sadly i dont have to worry about my dominant female anymore, she died yesterday. she showed evidence of a pretty bad callumanus infection. she was very healthy acting right up till the end, just seemed like she was always pooping. so i finally found out what has been mysteriously killing off my fish one by one since i added the 1 ram and some angels to the tank maybe a month ago. since i added them i lost 3 of the angels, 2 of the rams, then 2 corys, and 4 penguin tetras i had already. (i hadnt lost a single fish in this tank all the time prior)


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## Dutch Dude

Sorry to hear abouth the lost! Are you sure the fish died becouse of the worms? Mostly fish with worms become skinny first before the finally die. Most worms are easy to treat and Flubendazole is a relative save and mild treatment for most worms, hydra and gill flukes. It doesn't kill flatworms by the way. I hope you be able to save the remaining fish. I suggest to feed with food soaked in a mix of tankwater and meds.


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## jcushing

working on it, if you havent seen those worms before look em up, its gross.... by the time the worms get to the stage they were at with my ram the fish is usually pretty far gone.

been using jungle tabs, jungle parasite food, and i have some panacur in the mail...


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## IN2_Rams

jcushing

Did a quick search and found a reference to Levamisol and fenbendozol...

quote - Apistomgramma forum...
callamunus has a a complex life cycle using inveterbrates as the intermediate host, for this reason it has been suggested that it isn't likely to be a huge problem in aquarium fish.
some research has more recently shown that it can have a few direct lifecycle generations and so pass from fish to fish. the repeat dosing with medications will not be more effective when repeated more regularly. it needs to be done so that any eggs can hatch and tissue stage worms can develop to adult/or intestinal bound worms, this is often suggested as 2 weeks in mammalian worms.

i have used levamisol, i think the previous post suggest it is available as a bird wormer, take care that it doesn't have sugar or a carbohydrate in to increase palatability as this will encourage bacterial blooms in the water and reduce dissolved oxygen

i have also used fenbendazol in the a palatable dog wormer form, looks a bit like a stock cube and my fish eat it directly when crumbled in the tank... not so useful when fish severely affected and not eating

what dosing are you using?
levamisol 1-2mgs/l as permanent bath

fenbendazol 50mgs/kg orally
end quote...

Hope this helps :thumb:


----------



## Jason L

I have had these guys for about two years now. Great fish, tonnes of personality, plant friendly and great parents. I have sold/given away at least 200 fish from this pair. The sub dominant male at the rear is no longer in the tank.


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## jcushing

theres levamisol in the jungle parasite food, i have panacur on the way wich is fenbendazol .

the meds in the jungle tabs are also supposed to work so only time will tell i guess. havent lost a fish since the female ram, and all the fish are pooping like crazy, wich has to be a good sign.

still have 4 rams left, 2 keyholes, 3 angels, 2 corys, 2 penguins, and amazingly 16 rummynose, i have never lost a rummynose!


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## Dutch Dude

Jcushing,....lots of advice especially on the heavier meds. If I'm correct fenbendazole is close related to flubendazole. If I'm correct fenbendazole only works properly if it is in the food. If the meds don't work you can also try worm meds for pond fish *but only as a last recourse *and be very careful with the dosage!!!!!! Don't ever use several meds at once and stick to the normal dose or slightly overdose at max 10%. Clean the tank before you use the meds! Most worm meds don't kill the eggs so you need to give a second treatment at 10 day's after the first and I suggest a 3th treatment 10 day's after the second treatment just to make sure. Flubendazole is save to use but I'm not convinced it will be sufficient with this type of worm. Levamisole is a anti biotic if I'm right so I doubt if this will kill the worms and probably only cure secondary illnesses. Please keep us posted

Jason,.....WOW  Those are realy beautiful Bolivians of a rare beauty and qualety :thumb: Also a very nice pic with the 3 of them lined up! Are your fish wild caught specimen? They are stunning!!!


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## star rider

Dutch Dude,
Just an FYI. Levamisole Hcl (aka levasole) is originally a pig worming med. here in the states it is available from feed stores.
Hcl is a water soluable version of the med but must be dosed again as it will not kill the eggs. Levasole is sold as the 'sheep' version .it usually is a pill and is not water soluable unless crushed with the outer shell removed.

Levamsole is best used in food but is absorbed thru capillary action in the gills.


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## Dutch Dude

star rider,...thanks for the additional info :thumb: There is always something to learn right :wink:


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## jcushing

*** been vacuuming the sand as my fish have turned into poop machines to get any forms of worms out. hopefully thats a good thing, that they are pooping the dead worms out. the medicated food im feeding them has lavamisole in it and callamanus is listed right on the bottle, the only problem has been getting them to eat it. its floating food so *** been concerned with my bottom feeders like the rams actually getting the meds. i think ill try some garlic tomorrow to help the obviously not that tasty food.

i do also have fembendazole on the way wich does have to be put into the food. i dont expect that to be a problem since its the food they are used too.

once i kill the worms they have i will have to treat again in a couple weeks to get the hatchlings. i will be very happy when this whole thing is over


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## Dutch Dude

Sounds OK so fare :thumb: You can try to soak discus pellets with the meds and feed those. Discus pellets will sink and those are the favorite food of my Bolivians.


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## t0p_sh0tta

Recent pic. They've been digging a bunch of pits, I'm just waiting for eggs to be deposited at this point.

1st spawn in the new tank! (It's only been set up for 1.5 months).


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## blairo1

:thumb:


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## t0p_sh0tta

Question for you all...

I've had several successful spawns, however the fry are picked off 1 by 1 by the other tank mates.

I have a spare 10 gallon tank that's holding java moss at the moment. How soon after hatching would it be appropriate to transfer the fry to this tank?

Should I keep the temp the same as the main tank, or bump it up a 2-3 degrees?

Thanks,

Lamar


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## blairo1

Fill up the 10 gallon with tank water, get a heater in there and let the temp stabilize properly overnight, next morning set up the filter with established media and add a little more tank water.

Get the fry when they just start bumping around the pit - they still have the orange sac and aren't quite able to swim with much intention. Using a large pipette suck out about half of them, the rest you can either take or leave some with them (which I prefer).

Make sure you do daily 10% water changes to keep those nitrates right down and at the same time don't go too large as you want stable parameters...

Oh and keep the tank nicely shaded, they'll be much happier and less likely to suffer deformity.

:thumb:

http://s100.photobucket.com/albums/m15/ ... read-2.flv


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## t0p_sh0tta

Cool, thank you. Do you always use bare bottom tanks for the fry?


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## blairo1

Just makes it a lot easier to keep clean but some floating moss or something like that wouldn't hurt. With it bare bottomed you can easily remove any uneaten food with a pipette and you're less likely to suck them up when you clean it.


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## DMD86

Hello

I'm new to the hobby and I'm currently cycling my tank with cherry barbs. Once my tank has been fully cycled and established I'm really looking forward to adding a pair of bolivian rams. While I have the appropriate volume capacity in my tank I'm a little worried about its dimensions. I was hoping you guys could advise me as to whether or not my tank will be suffice.

I have an Aqua One 510. It's a 75L tank with the following dimensions - 51 x 54 x 34cm. Considering this is what I have, can I still have a pair of Bolivian Rams with 6 cherry barbs?

many thanks,

Don


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## Dutch Dude

Hi Don and welcome. This gives a floor space (footprint) of 54x34 right? I think this will do and abouth the same footprint as a 15 gallon. The height gives you some nice possibilities for aquascaping! The 6 barbs will be fine along with the Bolivians. You might want to consider to put in a small pleco such as a busynose or even better,...5 oto's as cleaning crew. In my opinion the tank is to small for both, the oto's and the busynose. If it was my tank I would go for the oto's.

Tp shotta,.....Blair already answered the question and nothing to add. Nice pic and nice fish :thumb:


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## richlindsey

Hello everyone. We would like to buy about 8 or so juvenile bolivian rams for our 55 gallon SA tank. They are very difficult to find in our area (Atlanta). Can anyone recommend a good breeder or two from whom we could purchase some nice rams?

Thanks!


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## Dutch Dude

Hi richlindsey. Abouth 8 in a 55 is realy on the edge and you have to make sure you put a lot of plants and driftwood in it. It has to be very densely planted!!! If you can't provide that I suggest 6 what can be considered as maximum for the tank size. So 8 can couse a lot of territorial fights and stress out the fish.

I suggest the trading post on this board or aqua bid to find some good qualety local bread fish. I suggest to keep away from the SE Asian fish (hormone treated) and watch out for the Czech fish (often lots of internal parasites).

Good luck and I assume we get to see some pics when they have been arrived in their new home? :wink:


----------



## DMD86

Dutch Dude said:


> Hi Don and welcome. This gives a floor space (footprint) of 54x34 right? I think this will do and abouth the same footprint as a 15 gallon. The height gives you some nice possibilities for aquascaping! The 6 barbs will be fine along with the Bolivians. You might want to consider to put in a small pleco such as a busynose or even better,...5 oto's as cleaning crew. In my opinion the tank is to small for both, the oto's and the busynose. If it was my tank I would go for the oto's.
> 
> Tp shotta,.....Blair already answered the question and nothing to add. Nice pic and nice fish :thumb:


Thanks for the reply.

Yep, 54x34 is the base and its 51 high. I guess ideally I'd rather a longer and shorter tank, but I'm glad that it will do!

I'm awful at aquascaping. I've seen so many beautiful aquariums in this thread and I don't know where to start. At the moment I simply have 3 cherry barbs, one peice of driftwood and a bunch of Hygrophila polysperma. Any suggests are welcomed.

Aren't I fully stocked with 6 cherry barbs and 2 bolivian rams? Otherwise I'd love to add some otos.

Edit: Oh yeah, and I have white pebbled substrate too.


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## Dutch Dude

H polisperma is a nice fast growing plant and I do like the "sunset" the most. But,...it is not an easy plant and needs a high light level. If you can't provide that I suggest to keep them a bit smaller at a length of abouth14 inch or so. If you let them grow to the surface the top of the plant will be nice but take away lots of light so the lower end will be bare stem becouse the leaves will die. Depending on what you like I do several suggestions.

Sugestion 1
Echinodorus parviflorus (10 to 14 inch) centre plant at the back and only on in the midle
Echinodorus parviflorus "tropica" in front at the corners (4 to 6 inch)
Falisneria spiralis "streight" at the corners.

Sugestion 2
Java fern all over the tank, at the back at the sides on the driftwood and Falisneria at the back.

Sugestion 3
Anubia species. and some floating plants.

Just some suggestions and something to think abouth. All mentioned species do well with moderate light levels (1 Watt/gallon) and are easy to maintain. My personal choice would be suggestion 1.

Blair is the master of aquascaping on here so he probably does have some nice suggestions as well.


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## pinkjello

I just got two bolivian rams today - they are quite big..both males apparently, i will post some pics when i take them..they are gorgeous!!

Gwynneth


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## richlindsey

Thanks Dutch Dude. The tank is quite heavily planted and has lots of driftwood. It has four separate "apartments" if you will with blocked lines of sight. We were planning on starting with eight just to make sure we got some breeding pairs. Figured we would pair down the number when they have grown a bit. Should be able to find homes for the extras at our local club. Does that make sense? Do we need to keep them in pairs or are they harem breeders like some apistos? What m/f ratio should we strive for?

I have been watching aqua-bid and will continue to keep an eye on it. Are there any reliable breeders or importers with an online presence that anyone could recommend?


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## Dutch Dude

Gwynneth,....Hmm, two males is not a good idea. Bolivians do best in small groups of 5 or more (if you have enough space for them) or as a pair.

Lindsey,....


> We were planning on starting with eight just to make sure we got some breeding pairs. Figured we would pair down the number when they have grown a bit. Should be able to find homes for the extras at our local club. Does that make sense?


 This does make sense indeed. If you have 2 males and 3 females you definitely end up with at least one pair. Bolivians do best in small groups of 5 or more or as a pair. Very rarely some males chase the female constantly around if she isn't ready to breed. This can couse enormous tress for the female and she can die. I never heard this if Bolivians are kept in a small group and in my experience they show much more social and funny behaviour in groups. So I recommend to keep Bolivians in groups just like their big relatives Geophagus. I suggest to keep away of the SE Asian fish and be careful with the Czech fish.


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## IN2_Rams

richlindsey,

I've had good success with my local PetCo carrying bolivians. They call them ruby clown cichlids at mine. The name made Wikipedia, so I just laugh and move on...
I agree with Dutch Dude (almost out of habit now). I keep 5 in my tank and they are wonderful to watch in a group! 
Good luck...


----------



## eguthrie

My 2 bolivian rams still each have their own territories, and flare up when they confront each other. (No harm done to either though.) So I'm still not sure if I have 2 males or a male and a female.

From this pic, can you someone tell me the sex of this fish?

Thanks. 
Evelyn


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## blairo1

That's a female.

:thumb:


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## eguthrie

That's what I thought, but I was hoping they'd start getting chummy with each other.

I guess time will tell. Thanks.


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## Mercury

I have 2 bolivian rams in a 30 gSA tank with 2 cories, 4 otos, 4 inseminated guppies, and neons. The tank has apenogeton, anacharis, java fern, moneywort, frill, dwarf hairgrass and subulata plants. The guy who sold me my rams said they were a pair, and it appears that one is a male, and one is a female, but to my knowledge they are not a _pair_. The "male" chases the "female," who has a very sunken belly. The male is well nourished and eats a variety of flake food and bloodworms. Bloodworms are the only thing the female will eat and are also the only frozen food I have tried. The pH is between 6.4 and 6.7, water quality is very good and temp is 80F. I was wondering what I can do to get these two to pair up.

Also, in one eye, the male has a cloudiness that is greater in the center of the eye and fades closer the the outside, and the iris is slightly discolored.

Thanks for any help.


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## Mercury

I found an image of a ram with an eye disorder that sows the same cloudier cloudiness over the center of the pupil and iris discoloration. But these symptoms are both not as terrible as the ones in the image.







The ram is healthy, besides these symptoms. As for breeding, would reducing the light be a good thing to do? The plants haven't become very thick yet.


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## 3569Ryan

oops wrong thread


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## Dutch Dude

Mercury,.....at first I recommend to drop the temp to abouth 76F. Bolivians don't like those high temps. Why is the female skinny and poor feeding,...is she ill, does she have worms or internal parasites? How long do you have the fish and what is their estimated age? I had some real old Bolivians and those start to develop star. If your fish are youngsters you definitely got a health issue!!! Can you add a pic of the your fish?


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## richlindsey

We are now official members of the BRC! Seven beautiful young bolivian rams arrived via FedEx yesterday and are now enjoying their new home, a heavily planted 55 gallon SA community tank. Other inhabitants include 11 Rummy Nose tetras, 18 Lemon tetras, 12 pygmy corys, 5 ottos and 5 young bristlenose plecos. Two of the plecos will soon be moving to another tank. That seems like a lot of fish but the water quality remains very good.

The bolivians have colored up nicely and seem to be happy but I am worried about them getting enough food. The tetras are very agressive eaters and seldom let much food get to the bottom of the tank where the bolivans are staying so far. I have been feeding both flakes and small sinking pellets twice daily and frozen foods as a treat every few days. I am never really sure if I am feeding the correct amount. We plan to start culturing daphnia for live food but haven't started that yet.

Is the current feeding regimen satisfactory for the bolivians or should I be doing something different?

Thanks!


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## Dutch Dude

Hi Lindsey,

Congrats on the new roommates :thumb: Good to hear they do fine and colored up nicely. What is the size of the Bolivians? There are quit a few inhabitants in your tank so the change of feed reaching the substrate becomes smaller. You could first soak the sinking pellets in some tank water (a few minutes will be enough) so they sing a bit faster. The food should be eaten within abouth 5 minutes. If the food doesn't reach the substrate you probably need to feed a bit more. I also drop in the food over the entire length of the tank.

I suggest to keep an eye on the bellies of the fish. They should be nice round like the fish of Evelyn on top of this page.


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## richlindsey

Thanks Dutch Dude. The smallest is about 3cm TL and the largest is about 4cm TL. Tonight will be the first time I will be giving them frozen bloodworms. We'll see how that goes. Hopefully some will make it down to the bottom. The tetras go wild for the bloodworms so they don't last long. I may try putting some flake food first at one end of the tank and then sneak in the bloodworms at the other end...


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## Dutch Dude

At that size you should feed at least 2 times a day. I think the blood worms will be eagerly eaten :wink:


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## t0p_sh0tta

Don't keep rams in multiple tanks.... you'll end up with simultaneous spawns!

I just used my last "extra" tank to house some RCS. I guess I'll have to go tank shopping again.


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## cc_woman

I have 2 bolivian rams in my 90 gallon discus tank. I am not 100% sure what sex they are. They seem to be fighting a little more lately. Could it be possible I have 2 males? I would love to get 3 females, but how do you sex them? I can sex GBR's easily, but have always had a problem with the bolivians. My bolivians are about 4" right now, and I should have no problems finding more of them...so what should I look out for in females? I love the BR's, I would love to keep GBR's or Gold rams again someday, but they didn't do well in my hardness


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## Dutch Dude

Blair has wrote a perfect sexing article for Bolivians and you can find it over here,...http://www.brc.moonfruit.com There is a second article as well abouth maintanance.

If you can't succeed in sexing them we can help you out. We need a clear shots of the fish and the vent. The fish need to be 1 1/2 inch or larger becouse it is to hard to sex them at young age. Be aware that your fish may not reach their normal lifespan becouse you keep them in high temps. They prefer lower temps.


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## cc_woman

Yeah I was reading you guys talking about them being at lower temps. I think when I get my discus 100% better, and I get my RO system up and running, I will put some GBR's in the discus tank instead. In the case of the temps being too warm for the bolivians, I am trying to free up another tank to put them in instead. Gotta sell some fish first  But I would still like to have at least 1 pair, or 5-6 of them. What are the minimum tank requirements for 5-6 of them? I will try and get clear shots. When venting, is it the same as venting mbuna? I have vented some of my fish before, so I know all about the process. Will the vent hole appear larger than the anal hole on females, and the same size on males?


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## Dutch Dude

Abouth the venting you can find all the info and pics at the link. I can tell but the pics do more as a thousand words. Rams have the same needs as discus so they should be good tankmates. Unfortunately rams are bad parents and have short live spans.

A very densely 30 gallon tank with a large footprint will be the absolute minimum for 5 Bolivians but I recommend larger tanks. I recommend a 50 gallon for 6 of them.


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## blairo1

http://brc.moonfruit.com/#/articles/4528900931

I'm having some issues on the site with updates, so let me know if you have any problems viewing the page and I'll try fixing it, time is short anyway - rebuilding my car engine (fun!).

:thumb:


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## cc_woman

Great link, thanks blairo :thumb: By the looks of things I do have 2 males. I will for sure try to get some pics (as soon as I find my camera) and will try venting them. So if I keep my discus tank temps at 82, will the bolivians be able to stay with them? If so I will try looking out for 3 females. I don't care if they spawn or not, would be a great experience though


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## blairo1

It was a while back - but I've kept and bred Bolivians in 28C water before, they were in there for quite some time, now I prefer a more relaxing 26C (79f) but they didn't seem to suffer any real ill effects, their colours popped like mad and they were very active, I would expect a reduced life span.

FYI guys, I just picked up a young group of 6 Bolivians, we'll see what the mix is soon enough but at the moment I'm leaning towards a 50/50 mix of 3m/3f which is :thumb: as I'm after 3-4 females to go with my older male and another younger spritely "lad" to give him a run for his money :lol:.

Some really nice specimens..... Pics to come when they get a bit of weight on.


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## blairo1

Tank re-scaped for the new additions, it will be about two weeks for the plants to re-settle and fill in to the desired amount:









Inquisitive!


















Oi oi!




































One of the other inhabitants:









:thumb:


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## Zack2112

Blair, your new bolivians look amazing, and i love your new tank scape. After reading your posts and seeing your tanks you have made me the newest member of the BRC, i picked mine up yesterday, they look nowhere near as nice as yours tho. a lfs ordered them for me because i kept coming in asking the last few weeks, since they had never heard of them before they only ordered me 4... im hoping to pick up a few more as they are just juvies, i think i have 2 males and 2 females but im having a hard time sexing them, i will post some pics soon. Thanks for getting me interested in bolivians, they are my new favorites!


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## Zack2112

Blair, your new bolivians look amazing, and i love your new tank scape. After reading your posts and seeing your tanks you have made me the newest member of the BRC, i picked mine up yesterday, they look nowhere near as nice as yours tho. a lfs ordered them for me because i kept coming in asking the last few weeks, since they had never heard of them before they only ordered me 4... im hoping to pick up a few more as they are just juvies, i think i have 2 males and 2 females but im having a hard time sexing them, i will post some pics soon. Thanks for getting me interested in bolivians, they are my new favorites!


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## edburress

Blair... the new bolivians look great :thumb: Glad to see the gill flaring in the photo, we know what that means :lol:

I also like to see the Corys going for a big swim high in the water column!

Ed


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## blairo1

*Zack2112*, thanks for the kind words! I'm sure yours will turn out a treat, it just takes a little time as they're usually in a bit of a state at the LFS (malnourished). Get some pics up, see if we can't help sex your Bolivians. Have you seen the guide here:
http://www.brc.moonfruit.com/#/sexingguide/4528902946

Ed, :thumb: they're a little bit on the skinny side, the females aren't too bad actually it's mostly the males but I'll soon fix that - got them on finely chopped krill, river shrimp and bloodworm NLS blend that I freeze into chunks.... Working a treat, just got to sneak it past the sev or he nails it in one :lol:. Those corys are my _Corydoras arcuatus _and they have always been like that, it's very entertaining as they rarely sit on the substrate and spend most of the day zooming around all over the tank.

You've probably seen my other post regrading the _Crenicichla_ so you may know that I'll also be adding a single specimen (potentially pair) of _C wallacii _and a pair of _Laetacara dorsigera_.

This should make for a really interesting community, we'll see how it goes. I'll keep you updated.


----------



## edburress

Blair...That sounds like a very interesting stock! Nice to hear you're getting yourself some new fish, that's always exiting. I'll keep an eye out for pics when you get the crenicichla.

My young bolivians are still trying to raise me some 3rd generation fry, every time so far they disappear before they are free-swimming. Here are a few pictures from their current spawn. These parents are from my older pair, I believe next week is actually their 1 year birthday :lol: Maybe they will get it right this time.

Pair negotiating their fanning duties (eggs are on the rock directly in front of the female)








Here is the clutch, they covered them with sand after 23 hours and did not uncover them until right when they hatched! First time I have observed them wait that long, but they started removing sand and transporting wigglers into a pit almost simultaneously. They hatched after 62.5 hours, but the wigglers are being concealed in a pit between the pebbles so I can't get a good picture.








The only interesting thing is that I am treating this tank for Ich and the bolivians spawned at 88*! and are seemingly immune to Ich.

Ed


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## Zack2112

Hey everyone, I tired to get pics of my new rams but my camera is not working very well and wont stay focused I took a few minutes of video instead. The lighting is poor and the quality is not that great but maybe you can still help me sex them. They are all juvies and a bit skinny as they were not in very good care at the LFS.

Im almost positive Ram #2 is a female. (correct me if im wrong.)

*** looked over the sexing guide countless times but i cant be sure as they are skinny and i cant see their vents that well.

Also i noticed a spot above and to the right on the eye of Ram #3, does anyone know what that is? it doesnt seem to have any effect except for its the only Ram with stress spots still, but they come and go. could the stress spots be from being malnourished at the LFS?

Finally Ram #4 has a ripped up tail. It was this way when i got them. Again, it seems not to be a bother and it is one of the more active rams in the tank.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## blairo1

Ed, that's excellent!

I can't wait to start breeding these guys again, alas last time I was in the middle of breeding the _P. taeniatus_ so the Bolivians got put on the back burner, much to my frustration. Then I couldn't get any for the longest time (until I posted actually). The differences in quality between your tank raised specimens and my fish-store specimens are quite apparent.

Interesting that they're so, productive :lol:, considering the conditions. I found my Bolivians really started to pop with colour and became increasingly interested in breeding in 28C but it never went above 28.5C. They loved it..... I find it interesting that they tolerate 30+C with such apparent ease though.

Here are some more update pics for you:




























The Bolivians new friends:








(See my Laetacara thread for more pics of these guys - http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... p?t=178409)

They get on really well with the _Laetacara_, I was a little concerned that the Bolivians would bully them but they don't even pay the slightest bit of attention to them.

Here's the completed hard-scape:









They're already starting to get breeding idea's, three of the females keep following the "oldboy" around, Hugh, as I like to call him. :thumb:


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## fredtex

ok boy's I have 3 bovarion ram's in a 20 g. tall. last night I had them spawn so i tooh the (man out) out of the tank and put him in a 33.g now momma is sitting on the egg's fanning her fin's off only leave's to move a snail or run off the male. if these turn out.we will have more BR's in the world raised with no hormone's


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## blairo1

:thumb:

This is a real feisty little one, they're growing fast!










I've got my water up at 27.5C to speed up their metabolism a bit so I can get them to a decent size before the old-boy (Hugh) gets too keen and starts trying to spawn with them all. These guys had really sunken bellies when I got them a week or so ago but they're starting to come into their own. I have my 3 females selected, just deciding on which male to keep now and then it's splitting time.


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## Dutch Dude

Hi guys,

Blair,....nice fish and I'm curious how they will grow out after a couple of months. I'm sure your care and foods make them stronger colored and brighten up as well get some more flesh to their bones. The last pics proves your doing an excellent job on it. :thumb: I like your laetacara! Nice fish and they also occur in the Guapore river drainage (more to the south). I'm planing on reducing the number of Bolivians in my tank to 1 or 2 pairs and some other dwarf. Laeticara is a possibility but I expect them to destroy my colony of cherry shrimp so I probably go for Apisto's (moste likely A. borellii opal red mask). Still the L. dorsigerus is a very attractive fish!

Zack,.... welcome to the club :thumb:

Fredtex,...congrats on your spawn 

Ed,...very nice fish and good strong colored. For my youngsters it also took quit some time before they learned the trick of how to raise fry. Once they learned they spawned on and on and on,....it is even boring! I don't breed them any more and luckily most get eaten by the other tank inhabitants. Why I don't breed them,...simple,...lack on time and all the energy costs, food and energy that is needed to raise them to a decent size to be sold,....and receiving only 3 Euro ($4,50) for a fry what cost me abouth 5 Euro ($7.50) to raise :lol: So I only breed my own stock for my own tank. Currently I have 2 nice parent raised youngsters that will be among my future stock. One pair of wilds would be an great addition so I could cross breed the wilds and domesticated.


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## mathas

I joined the club yesterday as well! Their coloration is still a bit dull, but I'm already seeing an improvement over yesterday, so they should start looking much more vibrant over the next couple of weeks.

Here are the only two I could get to sit still for long enough to take a halfway decent picture of:


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## edburress

Blair... that's a great picture of the Laetacara, it sure looks like a tiny thing! I can't wait to see how he looks when he grows out some under your care. I've been tempted by them quite a few times but none of the youngsters I've seen look that nice or I wouldn't of past them up :lol:

Ruurd... Nice to see you on the boards again!

Zach... Has anyone sexed your fish yet? I'll take a look at your video and get back to you.

Mathas... nice looking fish, I am sure they'll color up once they get settled in. I do think they could use a little fattening up :thumb:

Ed


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## fredtex

I Just want to say ty. for the info on your site it helped alot. update still no wiggler's it should be sometime tomorrow. mom and dad taking turn's fanning the egg's


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## justhooked

Woooooooooo Hoooooooooooooo! I am in! I got 4 Bolivian Rams today! They are too cute! I have only seen all of your pictures of them before today. I am sooooooooo excited! Once they settle in I will get pics and post.


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## edburress

*Zack*... Nice Video :thumb: I watched it twice and I think: #1 male, #2 female, #3 female and #4 male. I am certain #2 is female. At 2:35 in the video two fish are lip-locking, are those #2 and #3? If so, I think they are both female. I am fairly certain #4 is male, especially since you said he was one of the more active fish. #1 is a little thin and could go either way but I am leaning with male. Hope that helps. When you look at Blair's sexing guide really focus on the size of the finnage, the beginnings of caudal extensions (males), and head shape. Your #2 is a "classic" female build and your #4 is a "classic" male build.

*Blair*... I took a second look at the last picture you posted, his fin development is really nice. His dorsal rays are about as perfect as you can get :thumb:

Ed


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## blairo1

Ruurd, thanks bro. It won't take too long, some regular waterchanges and my special diet will have them ripe and ready in no time. Definitely 3 males, 3 females, which is what I suspected all along and is exactly what I aimed for - the 3 females are beautiful specimens and 2 of the 3 males are fantastic specimens. So another fortnight and I will leave the Old-boy and a younger lad, with their harem of harlots :lol:.

*mathas*, :thumb: they look good, they need the obvious care and attention but give it a week or so and I bet there's a marked improvement, I've only had my lot for a week and a half and they've gone from being skinny runtish LFS specimens to being colourful eager and ready to breed, all in a fortnight! What are you going to be feeding yours? I have been giving mine the special treatment to speed things up - a blend of salmon skin, mussels, squid and krill with garlic and shelled peas (to get them to eat the peas). It's really made a huge difference in an incredibly short time.

*fredtex*, the BRC site? You're more than welcome, nice to know it's still getting use even though I haven't been able to update it yet (money vs service issues).

*justhooked,* welcome. :thumb: Let us know more - what sort of tank are they in, what will you be feeding them?



> Zack... Nice Video Thumb I watched it twice and I think: #1 male, #2 female, #3 female and #4 male. I am certain #2 is female. At 2:35 in the video two fish are lip-locking, are those #2 and #3? If so, I think they are both female. I am fairly certain #4 is male, especially since you said he was one of the more active fish. #1 is a little thin and could go either way but I am leaning with male.


I completely missed that post. Having just now watched it I concur with Ed, 1 I feel fairly certain is the subdominant male. Because these "inferior" fish are low ranking they are often much harder to sex, this is because the vent usually retracts somewhat, finnage does not grow as rapidly as others (IME) and they frequently are malnourished, to an extent.

Because the general growth rate seems to slow the male characteristics that further develop (and make the differences somewhat easier to distinguish) are reduced, so it is often at times like this that a low ranking male will be perceived as a weak female, it would not surprise me if this was their intention.

So just to reaffirm - 1 inferior male, 2 female, 3 female, 4 dominant male.

Thanks Ed, he's one of the fiesty buggers, it's between him and my other favourite one spot male for their place in my tank. Chances are I'll go for the single spot, he's even nicer than this one, even if he is subdominant (barely) to him. I have a tendancy for choosing subdominants, I call them late bloomers, they aren't obvious, but given the time they come into their own. :lol:.


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## justhooked

They are in a 65 gal Hex with a large piece of driftwood, a couple man made caves, and lots and lots of plants both real and silk. The top half of the tank I am planning on putting hatchets and ultimately an angel. Hopefully out of the 4 I get a pair for that tank. The other 2 will go into my 30 gal community.

I just got them yesterday and they haven't eaten yet but I have this assortment of foods: Hikari Cichlid Staple Pellets, Hikari Sinking Wafers, Wardley Algae Wafers, Tetramin Flakes, Bloodworms, Krill, frozen liver and veggies. Which of all of this is the best combo for my Rams or should I be feeding them something different?


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## edburress

justhooked... mine love the Hikari sinking wafers, so you could try those since you already have them. They are usually good for picky fish, but eventually they will probably eat anything you put in there.


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## Zack2112

i am worried about one of my bolivians, it is the one that i noted had a spot above his eye in the video. again, its the only one with stress spots still but had the brightest colored fins. i believe it is developing a bad eye quite rapidly. the left eye is bulging outward and seems to be much larger than the other. it is starting to become cloudy as well. i dont think the outlook is good for this one. i have a small 5 gallon i am going to set up as a hospital tank for the time being. does anyone have any suggestions as to treatment. the water is clean and nitrites,nitrates,and ammonia are all in check. no other fish seem to be having problems.... although just remembered that i did have a few cardinals die when i first got them that seemed to have a messed up eye like this. could it have spread from them?

I would appreciate it if someone could respond quickly. I am leaving for the night in a few hours and want to start treatment asap.

Thanks in advance.


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## Zack2112

I had not heard any responses so i set up a 5g for the one ram. just a simple hospital tank. i removed a filter from my 20g and emptied the filterbag of carbon and am running that on the tank. I am treating it with maracyn to fight whatever bacterial infection caused the popeye. hes about the same today. in better news. my female bolivian and the one you described as the dominant male seem to be spending more time around each other. hopefully i will see some spawning activity.


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## blairo1

> . i removed a filter from my 20g and emptied the filterbag of carbon and am running that on the tank. I am treating it with maracyn to fight whatever bacterial infection caused the popeye


 :thumb:

Good move.

Most likely he was scarred on the eye during a tussle and this will have allowed infection, happens pretty easily under a lot of stress if a fish gets scraped, particularly on the eyes. I've only ever had it on a fish a couple of times as a result of fighting and I simply let it get on with it, did a few waterchanges to keep the water clean and it went down in no time, he was fine and had no cloudiness at all (pelvicachromis sp.)


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## Alti1979

Hi, since three weeks we (my girlfriend and I) have 4 Mikrogeophagus altispinosa's after we fell in love with them. We love their faces and their curiosity and that they sort of yawn, actually everything about them.  They live in a 180 litre aquarium that we have for two years now, together with 10 Nematobrycon palmeri, 7 Corydoras paleatus and one Panaque albomaculatus. Here are some pictures of our cuties:























































Also we have a question, in the last picture you can see a smaller female, who has red in her eyes, we have not seen this in the other three altispinosa's, is something wrong with her?

Thank you very much,

Alti1979


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## blairo1

Hi Alti and welcome to the club! Nice looking fish and I like the look of the tank, I'd love to see a full tank shot!

Re your last Bolivian, nothing wrong with her eye at all, some have that colouring, others don't.

You can see it in Eds picture here:









:thumb:


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## Alti1979

Thank you very much for your quick reply, tomorrow we will make a new full tank shot because the lights in the aquarium are off now due to the time here


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## fredtex

update on spawn came home from work fri. all egg's was gone. so mabey next time this was ther first spawn so it was a good practice run.


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## Alti1979

Here as promised yesterday, a full tank shot of our 180 litre aquarium.


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## edburress

Alti1979... That is an exceptional tank! Very natural looking :thumb: I am sure the bolivians will be happy in there.

fredtex... Sorry to hear the eggs were eaten, but they will get it right in time.


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## blairo1

Very nice Alti, that looks like quite a group of _Crossocheilus siamensis _you have there, no wonder the plants are looking nice and clean . I like the driftwood arrangement, the Bolivians must enjoy themselves in there!

:thumb:


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## Alti1979

Thank you very much for your nice replies, actually there are no Crossocheilus siamensis in our aquarium, the other inhabitants are:

Nematobrycon palmeri:









Corydoras paleatus:









and Panaque albomaculatus LDA31 (on the right of the alti female on the wood  ):









Comments and tips are always welcome,

Alti1979


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## justhooked

I don't know how you guys get really nice pictures. Maybe it is operator error or it could be my old digital camera. Either way, here is a picture of my 4 babies. They range from 1" - 1 1/2" not including their tails.


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## Alti1979

Hai Justhooked,

Great fish, alti's aren't they  I take my pictures with a digital camera too, I don't use the flash light but ajust the aperture and the shutter speed, maybe you could try too play with this on your camera? Also, I take a whole lot of pictures and only some come out good :wink:


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## justhooked

Yes they sure are. I guess it just takes time and practice. I took 25 just to get that one.


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## Tak17

Hi! First off I want to say that this forum has educated me quite a bit on my latest fish adventure and I enjoy reading everyones insights. I have 5 bolivian rams with no other fish. The two biggest(male and female) every once in a while (for about 5 days now) face each other, flare their gills, and sometimes lip-lock for a couple seconds. I know that this is sometimes a sign that they are going to pair, but after doing this, they slowly back off and go their separate ways and dont really do anything else to tell me they are pairing. Can anyone tell me what is going on? Any tips on how to induce them to breed? Water conditions, lighting, etc.? I have a 29 gallon planted.


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## fredtex

ok 2 thing's 1 how often will thay spawn and I have 2 placo's in the tank with them (good or bad) i mean should i leave then or take them out.


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## Alti1979

Tak17, you could check out Blairo1's website http://www.brc.moonfruit.com/ for instructions on how to induce your alti's to spawn and for lot's of other usefull information about alti's. You can find a feeding scedule in the Care and Maintenance article on page 3.

Fredtex, I do not know how often altispinosa's spawn or about your pleco's, maybe someone else can answer your questions. I do know that pleco's often form a territory and that alti's need their room for a territory too. What pleco's do you have and what size are they or what size will they become? I myself have a Panaque albomaculatus in my tank, fullgrown he will be about 5.1''.

Excuse me for my English,

Alti1979


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## edburress

*Tak17*... The behaviors you describe are certainly involved in courting. Lip locking is rare but sometimes my fish do that, however it is usually two females. I think most bolivians in LFS are a few months shy of breeding age, so if your fish are new then they may simply need a few months before they spawn. Here is a link to my article about breeding them, it focuses mainly on behavior and fry development. Blair has a nice diet to induce spawning, hopefully he will step in and share it with you. Personally I don't do a whole lot to induce spawning, but there are some details in the article.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/b ... sa_pt1.php

*fredtex*... Bolivians typically spawn every 3-4 weeks. It is fine to leave the plecos in the tank but they could potentially eat the eggs. If you are keen on raising fry I would remove them. You could also take a look at the article above and it would give you a good idea of what to expect.

*Alti1979*... no need to apologize about your english, it is great :thumb:

Ed


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## Tak17

*Tak17*
aliti1979, thanks for the link. It was very helpful.

edburress, thanks a lot for the insight. my 2 bolivians are almost 3 inches, so I think they are mature, and the male's coloration is very similar to the first picture in your article, so I hope he's ready. And the only thing I am still wondering is about courtship. Do the female's coloration change during courtship? Because it seems the male has gotten a yellower chest, but the female hasn't really changed colors. Also, does the intensity of courtship increase as time passes, or one day they decide to spawn? They dont really seem attached or anything, so I was just curious.


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## fredtex

my pleco's is 3.5 in and is a common pleco. had them for about a yr. and ty for the spawn info.
I've got a male in a 33g i've got to find a mate for and i'll make my new 29g there home.


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## granthoy

Hello!

I'm just new to the BRC but not new to the forum and have just picked up my first group of Bolivians and GBR's.

Here's the skinny...I have a 36 gallon bowfront and the dimensions are 30Wx15Dx21H. I had originally planned to have a pair of Angels but the LFS had nothing good :? ...so ended up making an impulse buy and bought two female Kenyi. Soon learned that no matter how pretty they are, they do not play well with others, or themselves, etc and that our tank was way too small. So on advise from the Lake Malawi group, and upon doing some additional research, I returned the Kenyi and exchanged for our Rams!

Now have 2 GBR's - pretty positive they're a M/F pair with the F @ 1.5" and the M @ 1.25" and 3 Bolivians. The Bolivians are between 1.5" - 2" and here's where the problem lies. At the store I thought I was getting 3 females...now I think I might have been wrong and picked up 3 males! I've had them in the tank since yesterday and everyone is already very social but there is a lot of posturing and chasing going on and some occasional ramming (probably just for territory) but as I watch the interactions, I honestly can't see any differences in the 3 Bolivians. I was wondering if anyone can tell me if I have males or females. I was able to get some pics that will hopefully help to determine what sex they are. I'm beginning to think that all the rams at the store were male...hmmm...

Anyway, if I do have boys, will this be a problem?? Right now it's just the Bolivians picking on each other and they seem to be leaving both of the GBR's alone. The male GBR nudges the female around and seems protective of her so I'm assuming that's a good thing.

And one other question, I just noticed in the last hour that a couple have been sliding across some of the larger rocks in the aquarium...appear to be scratching an itch! What does that mean?? Is it good or bad!?!

Here's the pics - keep in mind they just came from the LFS yesterday so still have some adjusting to do...

Ram #1









Ram #2

























Ram #2 with GBR's









Ram #3









Thanks in advance!

jen


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## edburress

*Tak17*... Usually both fish color up in the days before and through spawning. Then while they care for the eggs and young their coloration fades and their markings (facial banding and abdominal spot) darkens. Males look good almost all of the time, but can look exceptional during courting. Females can look very similar to males, but sometimes females barely show any color, it just depends on the individual. I have nice young females and also females that don't look very attractive even during courting.

Intensity of the courtship is interesting. Usually the males court really dramatically for a few days, and the females can act indifferent sometimes, but when the female begins displaying or cleaning a potential spawning site, spawning will probably occur within the next day.

Here is a video, it does a good job of showing what a drab female might look like in comparison to an older dominant male.
http://s191.photobucket.com/albums/z3/e ... ianRam.flv
Here the female was more or less gray, but they spawned the next day. So intense coloration isn't always the best means of predicting a spawn. Behavior is the best indicator, specifically the females behavior. You can see the male picking at the stones in the video, when the female starts acting like that it is a good sign :thumb:

This video shows post spawn coloration, all the colors wash out, except the yellow chest and they maintain very dark markings during parental care.
http://s191.photobucket.com/albums/z3/e ... gglers.flv

*granthoy*... Welcome to the BRC! It does look like you have three males. I am not sure how that will go, I don't have any experience keeping males together without females. It probably just depends on the individual fish. I would expect them to show a lot of territorial behavior, even long term, but possibly live together without any problems.

When the fish rub themselves on the substrate or decor, it is called "flashing". This is a common precursor to external parasites like Ich. But also, is normal after water changes, due to fluctuations in water hardness, in your case it could be because they are new additions to the tank. For flashing to be "normal" they don't do it very often or repeatedly over a short period of time. I would keep an eye on them since they are new and evaluate them as they settle in.

They look good for being in the tank one day :thumb: They are a little thin (normal from LFS) so I would feed them well over the next few weeks.

Ed


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## granthoy

Thanks for the confirmation...I was pretty sure I had boys but just wanted a second opinion. :thumb:

Things seem to have settled down a little bit today and the largest of the Bolivians seems to be the boss now. I plan to watch the LFS and possibly exchange 2 males for females if there are any other problems...

As well, the flashing has ceased and everyone seems quite content. The other 4 hang out and do their own thing and bossy just comes out to mooch food and chase away the group when they get to close...I can't believe how easy it is to become fixated on these fish for so much of my day! I had forgotten how enjoyable an aquarium in the house can be!

Anyhoo...one last question, would anyone have any concerns with adding 2 Angels to this tank...it is definitely tall enough and the Rams are staying in the lower level. Any compatibility issues I should be aware of??

thanks again!

jen


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## cale262

New 50g. planted BR tank...










BR's checking out their new home...


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## cc_woman

Great tank cale.


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## WhitetigerFish

Very awesome tank!! I am thinking about setting up a full 55 gallon BR tank, which currently has JD,FM,Geophagus,Clown loaches moving to my 100 gallon. I will post pics soon. How many BR for the 55 gallon 36" tank 22" tall 18" deep??


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## blairo1

Nice tank cale, how about a front on shot though so we can get a better perspective of it . Your Bolivians look very nice and healthy.

WhitetigerFish - cale probably has 2 males and 3 females, or something along those lines. I keep 7 in my 55 gallon with my Rotkeil sev and a pair of Laetacara, although I will be reducing the Bolivians numbers down to 5 (2m 3f is a great mix for a 55). If you want any other info you haven't already read in this mammoth thread then check out the site in my signature. I'm sure Ed can drop in and link you to his great breeding article too, as undoubtedly you'll end up wanting to watch them raise fry.

:thumb:

(I'm older today :dancing: opcorn: 8) )

My head hurts.


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## WhitetigerFish

Thanks Bro Blairo I was hoping to hear from you on these awesome fish, he has definitely stole the show from my JD, FM, Geo and everyone else in my tank. As they grow out and go into the 100g and I keep the bolivians probably with geo I was wondering if my fake plants will be fine? I have a lot of nice green fake in the tank and my one BR seems to love it but I wanted to make sure first! Thanks again... Pics very soon


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## justhooked

I am so excited! My 4 Bolivian Rams turned out to be 2 male and 2 female. Two have already paired up and spawned last night!  I will try to get pics. My other 2 are doing the little lip lock battles, so maybe they will pair up too.


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## blairo1

It's all going on eh! They're at it in my tank too, not quite ready to breed yet; give it a fortnight and I reckon I'll have two pairs ready to go.

Must be something in the water.

:lol:


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## justhooked

Here is my eggs & Momma peeking out. I wasn't going to add those neon "caves" into the tank but my 7 year old daughter begged me to, now I am glad I did!


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## blairo1

:thumb:

Holy dayglo batman!

:lol:

Here's a little video of me feeding my Bolivians some krill by hand, also my Rotkeil sev, or as I like to call it, pre water change play time - gets them all relaxed and ready for my waterchanges and keeps them happy throughout.

http://fruityjuice.webs.com/videos2.htm


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## cale262

blairo1 said:


> Nice tank cale, how about a front on shot though so we can get a better perspective of it . Your Bolivians look very nice and healthy.
> 
> WhitetigerFish - cale probably has 2 males and 3 females, or something along those lines. ....


Good Guess, 5 BR's (3FM/2M) and another pair in a 20gal.

Thanx for all the compliments, Here's a front shot...Not the best quality pic, don't know why but this tank doesn't like it's pic taken...


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## DMD86

Hey guys,

I'm finally the new owner of two beautiful bolivian rams. I just need a little advice on how to care for them.

Water quality is no problem, I do multiple small water changes through out a week and my nitrates are never over 10ppm.

Enviroment and feeding are my two biggest issues.

Unforunately when I picked them up there were no sinking pellets in stock. The gourami's always beat them to the flake. 3 days later I have the pellets, except now the bolivians have learned to go to the surface to feed! I'm trying to put flake in one corner and the sinking pellets in another in hope that the bolivians will find the other food source.

Sometimes they spit out the food, and attempt to eat it again and ultimately fail. Any ideas?

Lastly, their behaviour is much different to what I expected. Don't get me wrong, they're my new favourite fish. I have a rock laying against a piece of driftwood. I was thinking that the bolivians would turn that "cave" into a territory but perhaps it is too small. They never go inside it. It's quite small, they wouldn't be able to swim around inside but i'm certain they would fit. a 2 inch honey gourami fits in there quite comfortably. Is it too small?

Also, it appears that I have two male bolivians. They aren't hurting each other but occasionally they fire up and face off. There doesn't appear to be any constant harrassment. Any problems here?

Eating and enviroment aside they have beautiful colouration. In fact they are more colourful now than what they were when I picked them up from the LFS.

They might not be as pretty at the GBR but they are at least just as pretty. They're the kind of fish that might not catch your eye from a far... but as soon as you approach the tank you recognise the subtle beauty .


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## WhitetigerFish

I think your set up will be fine. Good water conditions and the rams will find the food. there probably a little excited still about their new home but pretty soon they will settle in territories and speed to the food source imo. I'm not an expert though im sure blairo will have some more pointers. Here is a pic of my tank and my single bolivian =)


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## DMD86

> They might not be as pretty at the GBR but they are at least just as pretty. They're the kind of fish that might not catch your eye from a far... but as soon as you approach the tank you recognise the subtle beauty Wink.


Ok, because I'm an idiot and can't find the edit button I did mean to say that they might not be *prettier than the GBR but they are at least just as pretty.


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## edburress

DMD86... Your tank sounds fine. If the bolivians are feeding from the surface then they will do fine. I don't think they'll have any problem competing for food once they get settled in. IME if they feed on one kind of food, they will quickly expand to other foods.

The cave isn't too small, it's just that bolivians very rarely use caves. They prefer areas with driftwood and vegetation and even open areas. Flat stones for spawning sites are also beneficial. Goodluck,

Ed


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## blairo1

Any of you guys see my feeding video?

http://fruityjuice.webs.com/videos2.htm

Will backread properly but thought a couple of you might enjoy it in the meantime.


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## Hubbynz

hey blair who is the big boy? I am surprised he doesn't eat your dithers.


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## eric

Blair, your fish are spoiled. Make them come to the top of the tank.


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## jack lover

ya i am going to cycle a 30 gallon soon and get i koi angel and 2 geman blue.and i have two bolivians in my 20 gallon with some guppies.


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## blairo1

:lol: Thanks guys.

Hubbynz - the Rotkeil severum is the big boy and he's a good 7.5" (not so big to some). He's very well behaved and mild mannered, naturally he has his moments but I have him well trained not to damage my plants (I haven't had to reinforce this in months either, he's pretty smart).

He doesn't really eat dithers as you might expect, as he ages he tends to snack on one or two of them every once in a while but nothing devastating. Although he has whittled my group of Rummynose in half, bloody expensive fish they are too. Might have to get him some shrimp to hunt.

Eric, good to hear from you, my fish certainly are spoilt! In a good way though. I rarely feed them like that, it's only on water change days where I have my hands in the tank anyway so I like to play with the feesh for a while before I drain half their water. They don't seem so bothered if I do this first and they know what it means now so it prepares them for what is to come.

The rest of the time I like teasing them up to the surface and watching them race to get at pellets as they start to sink.


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## D-007

Really enjoyed that video mate. Have to admit I was paying more attention to the Rotkeil though, he is a beauty :thumb: Does he give any grief to the Rams? Would love ask more about him but seeing as this is a Ram thread I won't


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## blairo1

Nah he's in my ram tank, so you're ok .

Thanks bro! As far as giving grief to the Bolivians - he couldn't care less what they're doing or where they are in the tank. You can see the tank as it is normally in the first video of the site and a bit more of the Rotkeil, I'll have to make a little compilation of his antics soon.

:thumb:


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## ridley25

I'm in the club after months of waiting!
There are 4 rams in my 29 - hoping to get it down to a happy pair. I'd love to think I didn't select 4 males from the LFS. I'll post pictures as soon as I can so that the resident experts can help me sex them.

kevin


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## DMD86

Hey guys,

Bolivians' seem to be taking the pellets for the most part. They fail with the flake, they're unable to eat it. They swallow it and spit it out repeatedly. It's not as if they don't go for the food, they're as eager as all my other fish.

Does anyone know why? It's high quality flake.

Like I said, they are better with the pellets but even then they still spit it out.


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## Hack022

I think I may have the BR bug. I set-up a 90g SA dwarf tank and wanted to do BR's in the community but they just weren't available around here for some reason ( I'm happy with my apisto pair and lata dors, but really want to do some BR's).

I've now seen them in a couple of LFSs and I"m strongly considering redoing my 35g african to a BR tank.

So If I take this plunge (more than likely), how many rams should I stock the tank with initially(assuming I can only get juvies) and what number should I be looking at to maintain a happy tank. Are there any tankmates that you might suggest work with the final stocking #,

Thanks


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## blairo1

Welcome Kevin, get those pics up! Have you seen my sexing article: http://brc.moonfruit.com/#/articles/4528900931

*DMD86*
They generally do this as they eat, mine are very selective and take their time after the initial bout of chasing pellets, but because I feed NLS which is quite a dense pellet they normally chew it up, spit it out and suck it back in etc, then move onto another (not always finishing the first). They take in plenty this way. Do they have sunken bellies?

*Hack022*
Well if you posted in here expecting not to get persuasions then lookout, but it sounds to me like you've already made your mind up and just want some affirmation .

http://brc.moonfruit.com/#/articles/4528900931

Ed has a great article regarding breeding them too, I'm sure he'll link you to that one if you don't find it earlier in the thread.

In short - a group of 5 as your final stock - 2m 3f can work well although in smaller tanks I prefer female heavy ie 1m 4f (so you don't end up with two pairs and one outcast). Suitable tank mates are pretty diverse in range, are there any dithers in particular you are attracted to? A personal favourite for many are the Rummynose Tetra and they work especially well in situations where you want to raise fry. Corys work well with Bolivians - I like a group of 5 Corydoras arcuatus but bear in mind that they are little fry stealers. Freshwater sumatran gobies always did well with my Bolivians and added some odd ball interest without really using any tank space. Golden Nugget plecos have always been a favourite of mine.

I'd start with a group of 8 juveniles and if you are able to sex them then get 3 males and 5 females - allows you to remove the runt from either group.

:thumb:


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## D-007

blairo 1 said:


> Nah he's in my ram tank, so you're ok :wink: .


Cool thanks

Was he introduced to the tank after the Rams or before?

Does he bother the Rams when they're breeding or eat their eggs or do you remove them when that happens?

And lastly I hope you don't mind me asking this one:

Right now my 55g has 1 hot female Ram :lol: , 8 Neons, 2 Honey Gouramis, 2 Corydoras, 3 male Cupid cichlids and a lone Otocinclus.

I've wanted to keep Severum's many a time before with Bolivian Rams but have always been led to believe they need to be kept in groups (at the least 2) never a single specimen - somewhat like Discus.

I'm planning on breaking down the tank in about a month and am looking to redo the 55g around the Ram's; I'll be getting another 4 when the guy is ready, with at least 1 of them being a male  .

What I'd like to keep in there with them would be the Otocinclus (plus 4 more of them) and the Neons and a Severum, most likely a Gold Severum as I haven't been able to find a Rotkeil on this side of the pond. Maybe even one of the Cupid's :-?

Thoughts?


----------



## blairo1

D-007 said:


> blairo 1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nah he's in my ram tank, so you're ok :wink: .
> 
> 
> 
> Cool thanks
> 
> Was he introduced to the tank after the Rams or before?
> 
> Both! Initially he was introduced to the 55 after the Bolivians and then later with tank changes he had the tank without Bolivians (instead Pelvicachromis) and obviously this later led to the re-introduction of more Bolivians. You follow :lol:.
> 
> Does he bother the Rams when they're breeding or eat their eggs or do you remove them when that happens?
> 
> When I very first introduced him in the Rams had a group of wigglers and had never experienced a fish this large before so they got a bit skittish and the Rotkeil being new didn't really pay much attention to anything other than where he wanted to chill, which was right over their fry, at least until he realised and nailed the whole lot in one..... The Bolivians went nuts and wacked him, well that gave him a shock. Generally the Bolivians keep him fended off very well: http://s100.photobucket.com/albums/m15/ ... 4a1502.flv and I've never had a problem with him actually attacking them, he will occasionally pseudo charge if he gets really fed up of them harassing him but after that he normally skulks off. I've bred P. taeniatus in there too and they ruled the tank, you'd get little standoffs between huge Rotkeil and tiny taeniatus, very funny, but they'd spook him into submission in the end.
> 
> And lastly I hope you don't mind me asking this one:
> 
> Right now my 55g has 1 hot female Ram :lol: , 8 Neons, 2 Honey Gouramis, 2 Corydoras, 3 male Cupid cichlids and a lone Otocinclus.
> 
> I've wanted to keep Severum's many a time before with Bolivian Rams but have always been led to believe they need to be kept in groups (at the least 2) never a single specimen - somewhat like Discus.
> 
> I've never had a single issue with him being shy, reclusive or inactive, he's a very outgoing personable fish and happily eats from my hand (as you have seen), He doesn't even have a cave as such, I've just always worked with him to provide a plant free area where he likes to chill.
> 
> I'm planning on breaking down the tank in about a month and am looking to redo the 55g around the Ram's; I'll be getting another 4 when the guy is ready, with at least 1 of them being a male  .
> 
> What I'd like to keep in there with them would be the Otocinclus (plus 4 more of them) and the Neons and a Severum, most likely a Gold Severum as I haven't been able to find a Rotkeil on this side of the pond. Maybe even one of the Cupid's :-?
> 
> Sounds cool, be aware of a couple of things though - the Sev will eventually develop a taste for little fish that can fit in his mouth - ie Neons, otocinclus, sumatran gobies, even rummynose tetra. I'm not saying it can't be done but just don't be surprised to lose one or two every now and again (primarily dithers). My sumatran Gobies lived with my Rotkeil for many, many months, once I changed the scape to leaf-litter it triggered a hunting instinct as the gobies would plough through and rest under the oak leaves, when in a densely planted tank I never had a problem, so plenty of cover is very important. It's only something that has happened as he's fully matured (ie in the last month) and even so he's never touched anything apart from that one off goby kill and my dithers.
> 
> Jeff Raps, seems to be where many have got their Rotters from, I don't know if that'd work for you. But I'd be inclined to try for a Rotkeil, I prefer them anyway but they're a little smaller and don't seem quite so piscivorous until they really mature, whereas my Gold would hunt anything even when only the size of your palm.
> 
> This is how big he was when I first got him (Feb 2007):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jun 2008:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quite the different fish eh, he's filled out even more now.
Click to expand...

 :thumb:


----------



## ridley25

> Welcome Kevin, get those pics up! Have you seen my sexing article: http://brc.moonfruit.com/#/articles/4528900931


I've scanned the sexing article many times, but until one sees them in action, it's all pretty hypothetical. Finding time at work these days to just stare at the tank has been difficult - I think my in-store sexing skills were as poor as my timing.

These pictures won't help with sexing, but here's a first look. I hope to get my SLR into work one day when I'm not on the bike. Until then it's the point and shoot:


----------



## Hack022

Thanks blairo1.

The wife has graciously allowed me to keep this tank (was suppose to sell it when I got the 90). So when I'm on vacation in two weeks the conversion is on. My only requirements for dithers are peaceful and colorful (I have pencil fish in my SA tank and those guys can be buggers in picking no each other and on the apistos).

Looking forward to joining the BRC.



blairo1 said:


> Welcome Kevin, get those pics up! Have you seen my sexing article: http://brc.moonfruit.com/#/articles/4528900931
> 
> *DMD86*
> They generally do this as they eat, mine are very selective and take their time after the initial bout of chasing pellets, but because I feed NLS which is quite a dense pellet they normally chew it up, spit it out and suck it back in etc, then move onto another (not always finishing the first). They take in plenty this way. Do they have sunken bellies?
> 
> *Hack022*
> Well if you posted in here expecting not to get persuasions then lookout, but it sounds to me like you've already made your mind up and just want some affirmation .
> 
> http://brc.moonfruit.com/#/articles/4528900931
> 
> Ed has a great article regarding breeding them too, I'm sure he'll link you to that one if you don't find it earlier in the thread.
> 
> In short - a group of 5 as your final stock - 2m 3f can work well although in smaller tanks I prefer female heavy ie 1m 4f (so you don't end up with two pairs and one outcast). Suitable tank mates are pretty diverse in range, are there any dithers in particular you are attracted to? A personal favourite for many are the Rummynose Tetra and they work especially well in situations where you want to raise fry. Corys work well with Bolivians - I like a group of 5 Corydoras arcuatus but bear in mind that they are little fry stealers. Freshwater sumatran gobies always did well with my Bolivians and added some odd ball interest without really using any tank space. Golden Nugget plecos have always been a favourite of mine.
> 
> I'd start with a group of 8 juveniles and if you are able to sex them then get 3 males and 5 females - allows you to remove the runt from either group.
> 
> :thumb:


----------



## Hack022

Thanks blairo1.

The wife has graciously allowed me to keep this tank (was suppose to sell it when I got the 90). So when I'm on vacation in two weeks the conversion is on. My only requirements for dithers are peaceful and colorful (I have pencil fish in my SA tank and those guys can be buggers in picking no each other and on the apistos).

Looking forward to joining the BRC.



blairo1 said:


> Welcome Kevin, get those pics up! Have you seen my sexing article: http://brc.moonfruit.com/#/articles/4528900931
> 
> *DMD86*
> They generally do this as they eat, mine are very selective and take their time after the initial bout of chasing pellets, but because I feed NLS which is quite a dense pellet they normally chew it up, spit it out and suck it back in etc, then move onto another (not always finishing the first). They take in plenty this way. Do they have sunken bellies?
> 
> *Hack022*
> Well if you posted in here expecting not to get persuasions then lookout, but it sounds to me like you've already made your mind up and just want some affirmation .
> 
> http://brc.moonfruit.com/#/articles/4528900931
> 
> Ed has a great article regarding breeding them too, I'm sure he'll link you to that one if you don't find it earlier in the thread.
> 
> In short - a group of 5 as your final stock - 2m 3f can work well although in smaller tanks I prefer female heavy ie 1m 4f (so you don't end up with two pairs and one outcast). Suitable tank mates are pretty diverse in range, are there any dithers in particular you are attracted to? A personal favourite for many are the Rummynose Tetra and they work especially well in situations where you want to raise fry. Corys work well with Bolivians - I like a group of 5 Corydoras arcuatus but bear in mind that they are little fry stealers. Freshwater sumatran gobies always did well with my Bolivians and added some odd ball interest without really using any tank space. Golden Nugget plecos have always been a favourite of mine.
> 
> I'd start with a group of 8 juveniles and if you are able to sex them then get 3 males and 5 females - allows you to remove the runt from either group.
> 
> :thumb:


----------



## D-007

*ridley25*
Here's what I think they are:
1st and 3rd pictures look like a female (same one?)
The 2nd looks like a male.

NOW, I'm no expert so *blairo1 *will be correcting this if I'm wrong :lol:

As for the point and shoot quality, they look pretty good in my book ... great job :thumb:


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## cale262

Of course all the kewl stuff has to happen when I'm not there...My BR's just had little ones :dancing: ,but I won't be home for another week to see them :? Man work sux...


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## justhooked

I am sure it is in one of these many pages but, how often do Bolivians spawn normally?


----------



## cale262

justhooked said:


> I am sure it is in one of these many pages but, how often do Bolivians spawn normally?


Good question...I don't really know myself,..I do know this group has only been in my tank for less than three weeks now...begginers luck more than likely


----------



## blairo1

Not sure where Ed is, haven't heard from him in quite some time and I hope things are ok. Meanwhile I try to hold the fort here :lol:.

You guys will find Eds article spot on, really nothing I can tell you that he hasn't included here:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/b ... sa_pt1.php

:thumb:

*Ridley*, D007 is correct (and yes *D* they are the same fish in 1 and 3). The second pic could potentially be female with a receded ovipositor, but a clearer shot will make sure, until then, looks more likely that it's a male.

Just as an update for people looking for info:

Eds Breeding article:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/b ... sa_pt1.php

My Sexing article:
http://brc.moonfruit.com/#/sexingguide/4528902946

Ruurd and I also wrote this General Care article, it is here on the CF site too:
http://brc.moonfruit.com/#/caremaintenance/4528902938
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/m ... pinosa.php (in case the BRC site is temp down).


----------



## justhooked

Ok, I read the breeding article. Now I have questions! I have 4 BR in my 65 gallon hex. I know that one pair has emerged, but now I am thinking the other 2 have paired up as well because I have been having spawns every 9 - 14 days. I thought it was the one pair because the spawns all happen in that neon cave thing my daughter begged to be put in the tank. Nothing ever comes of the eggs. They end up being eaten before they reach wigglers. I guess the question is could it be the one pair every week and a half, or are these rams taking turns in the spawning site. They all are young between 1 1/2" and 2", and when there are no eggs everyone swims together but when there are eggs present in that cave it is defended royally.


----------



## ridley25

> Ridley, D007 is correct (and yes D they are the same fish in 1 and 3). The second pic could potentially be female with a receded ovipositor, but a clearer shot will make sure, until then, looks more likely that it's a male.


Thanks blairo1 and D007. I wasn't hopeful enough to think I picked some females since they squabble so much. Every feeding turns into a Sergio Leone standoff - something my uninformed intuition would ascribe to male behaviour.
If I can get my employees and coworkers to stop making me work today, I will take more and better pictures!


----------



## edburress

*Blair*... Thanks for linking my article! Everything is fine with me, just been busy the last few weeks and haven't been checking the board.

*justhooked*... Hopefully my article was some assistance. As for the spawns every 9-14 days, I suspect those to be from different females but the only way to be sure is to observe them. All my adults spawn every 3-4 weeks, however when my fry were 10-12 months old, I did have a few spawns every 2 weeks that were certainly from the same females. So it is possible in your case, but I suspect otherwise. Based on the size of your fish I would assume they are a comparable age.

Ed


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## justhooked

I will have to spend even more time watching my fish then! Oh darn! :wink:


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## justhooked

Well they have spawned again. It has to be 2 pairs or at least 2 different females. It has only been a week since the last spawn. And in that same neon cave thing!


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## Dutch Dude

Justhooked,.....when my Bolivians were around 8 months of age some of them spawned for the first time. The eggs were eaten becouse the fish were still in a grow out tank with abouth 50 of their siblings. Short after that I sold the fish to the lfs and kept 7 of them for my own tank. After a short period they paired off and start to spawn. One pair spawned every 2 weeks and ate the eggs again and again. I guess they needed to learn the trick and slowly they made progress. One day they learned the trick and were able to take care of their fresh hatched fry. Some females and some of the males turned out to be bad parents so the couples switched partners. Now I have 1 good pair a moderate pair and 2 bad parents who aren't able to breed successfully. The good couple did have a period of abouth 5 months were they spawned every 2 to 3 weeks. During the summer they only spawned a couple of times but recently they start spawning at a high rate again.

Young couples can spawn every 2 weeks. In my experience those eggs are smaller compared to adults and more skilled parents. I think it is one couple that spawns in that cave and will need some time to figure out how things work. It took my youngsters abouth 4 months but once they succeed they could not be stopped. There is an other reason why I think it is the same couple,....why give up a good spawning site! Mine always spawn at the same sites and always dig pits in the same aria's. I have had 2 spawning couples just split by one small echinodores and only 5 inch between the spawning sites. The only open possibility is that one male spawns with 2 females,.....but this won't last and he will select the best parent and stick with her.


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## justhooked

Thank you. After watching these guys more closely and trying to find little differences in the appearance, I think you are right.


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## Hubbynz

Ok I bit the bullet.....there was a delay on the shipment of my aspito cacs and I saw some beautiful Bolivians at my LFS and I have opted for them instead for my planted tank. I am pretty sure I selected a female and a male but will put some pics up in a couple of days to confirm.

Cue little things and defiantely underrated.


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## Hubbynz

**** looks like I have two males as far as I can tell based on Blairs sexing guide. Both have elongate 2nd and third spikes on their dorsal, more beak like face and their privates both face backwards........no worries I can return one to the lfs and get a female although I am tempted to keep both and add a female and wait to see who she pairs with before returning.

heres the pics.....do they have black stress dots??? My water parameters as ulways under control although I don't test water hardness.


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## Hubbynz

Ok I returned to the LFS to try and source a female and they only had two bolivians left....anyway I still couldn't tell if they were male or female so one of the more experienced staff vented sexed them for me and assured me they both were female and I think he was right.....please don't tell me I have three females. I know the quality of them isn't as good as most of the Bolivains here but these guys are quite rair in my neck of the woods and I don't see them too often round here.

I decided to get better vent shots so you guys can verify them

[b]So introducing the new female[/b]


















*Large Male???? (please tell me one of my males are actually males???)*


































*Small male????*[/u]
[img]http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq174/Hubbynz/Fish/bolivians060.jpg

*Not sure which fish this one is lol*

















there home


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## Dutch Dude

More important as determine sex is their health. They need to get some good qualety pellets and some frozen every day so they will beef up. Right now they are poor looking skinny and stressed fish. With some good foods and clean fresh water they should become nice and healthy again.


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## Hubbynz

Dutch Dude said:


> More important as determine sex is their health. They need to get some good qualety pellets and some frozen every day so they will beef up. Right now they are poor looking skinny and stressed fish. With some good foods and clean fresh water they should become nice and healthy again.


Don't worry I noticed this right away and have been trying to fatten them up the last four days. The larger one is already looking alot plumper and his colours are really starting to show. They all go absolutely crazy for algae waffers too.


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## Hubbynz

Dutch Dude said:


> More important as determine sex is their health. They need to get some good qualety pellets and some frozen every day so they will beef up. Right now they are poor looking skinny and stressed fish. With some good foods and clean fresh water they should become nice and healthy again.


Don't worry I noticed this right away and have been trying to fatten them up the last four days. The larger one is already looking alot plumper and his colours are really starting to show. They all go absolutely crazy for algae waffers too.


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## sweetiekatz

Hi there, so glad I found this forum! Been a fish keeper for a while, worked my way up from goldfish to 10 gallon community tanks and now venturing into the world of more advanced tank setups.

I have fallen totally in love with Bolivian Rams - their personality and intelligence is just wonderful, so much fun to watch! I am in the process of setting up a 20 long South American tank and am hoping to get a pair to make it their home. BR donâ€™t make it to my lfs very often so I grabbed two when I saw them a couple weeks ago. From what I can tell, they are both males. They are residing in the 29 gallon community tank right now, they fuss with each other a bit over territory but have pretty much divided the tank in half. I took a short video of them patrolling the tank, watch in high quality or they look like fuzzballs:






I am absorbing so much information from the posts here, will probably be back to ask questions!

Hereâ€™s my South American tank in progress:










Karen

29 Gallon Community 
1 Corydoras arcuatus â€œSkunk coryâ€


----------



## sweetiekatz

Hi there, so glad I found this forum! Been a fish keeper for a while, worked my way up from goldfish to 10 gallon community tanks and now venturing into the world of more advanced tank setups.

I have fallen totally in love with Bolivian Rams - their personality and intelligence is just wonderful, so much fun to watch! I am in the process of setting up a 20 long South American tank and am hoping to get a pair to make it their home. BR donâ€™t make it to my lfs very often so I grabbed two when I saw them a couple weeks ago. From what I can tell, they are both males. They are residing in the 29 gallon community tank right now, they fuss with each other a bit over territory but have pretty much divided the tank in half. I took a short video of them patrolling the tank, watch in high quality or they look like fuzzballs:






I am absorbing so much information from the posts here, will probably be back to ask questions!

Hereâ€™s my South American tank in progress:










Karen

29 Gallon Community 
1 Corydoras arcuatus â€œSkunk coryâ€


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## Dutch Dude

Hubbynz,.... :thumb: they are realy skinny and with your care they can become stunning fish. People who remember how poor looking Blair his male was when he bought him almost can't believe that the fish has grown to such a nice specimen. Once the fish are nicely beefed up with nice you will find sexing easier.

Karen,...welcome to the BRC. Thats an amazing looking tank! It does have some similarities with Blair his tanks and realy is nice looking with lots of potential. Some of the plants still need to defelop more so I'm curious how the tank will look like in another 6 months or so.

You received 2 nice youngsters and they seem to be happy in the 29. :thumb:


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## Zack2112

Hey everyone, I have a quick question about tank mates, I have not had an issue with my bolivians and other fish yet, in fact they ignore all of the other fish and only pay attention to the other bolivians. Right now i only have 3 bolivians because it was all i could get and I am waiting to redo my tank to add more. There is also a small shoal of tetra and a couple corys. My question is this, would it be safe to put 6 F1 1-1.5" rotkeil severums in the tank with them for the time being. It is a 60 gallon, same footprint of a 55 but 4 inches taller. I have wanted a rotkeil for a while and came across a deal i couldnt refuse. I just want to know if it will be ok to keep the rotkeils in the tank with the bolivians, or do you think the bolivians may pick on the new inhabitants. As hard as it was to get my bolivians they are about 20 times easier to get than rotkeils around here, i dont want the new fish to be eliminated from the tank. I know a new tank will be needed eventually or fish will need to be sold, but a new tank will definitely not happen before the fish come.

Looking forward to a response, Thanks in advance!


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## Dutch Dude

I'll expect the rotkeils to be fine for the first 2 to 3 months. There will be some quarreling and this will increase as the Rotkeils grow to the size of the Bolivians. I'll doubt that someone is experienced on keeping 6 baby rotkeils and 3 bolivians in a 60 gallon so you just can't be sure that it works. For the case it doesn't I suggest to make an arrangement with the lfs for temporarily storing one of the species. I don't know abouth you plans on a second tank but for 6 rotkeils you need a huge tank! I assume you will grow out some and select one or 2 of the best looking fish. From what I read abouth it a 55 is the minimum size for a single rotkeil.

For now I'll think the baby's are fine but I would keep a close eye on them!


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## blairo1

I'd say a standard 75 is minimum for a single Rotkeil (Ruurd my "55" is actually a 75, I bought it as a 55 but never thought to check it :lol.

I wouldn't keep a Rotkeil in a tank with a standard 55's width, my Rotkeil is a solid 8" now, 13" width isn't going to cut it long term.

I'd try it and see - with that many fish they may well just sink into group mentality and just scoot around in schools with one another, as Ruurd points out as the Rotkeils get bigger they will start to become dominant over the Bolivians and when this happens you will really need to move them out as the Rotkeils jaws will be larger and more powerful than the Bolivians when they are just a little bit bigger.

I don't envisage a problem short term, but you will need to have a backup plan ready to go.


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## Dutch Dude

> I'd say a standard 75 is minimum for a single Rotkeil


That is what I often see as minimum tanksize but I also see a group of people who are able to keep them in a 55. It is always better to provide your fish more space as the minimum requirements but thats obvious. I'm not woried the Bolivians bully the rotkeils but the rotkeils bully the Bolivians. If this will happen when both species are the same size is hard to predict and depends on the aggression level of the youngsters. I noticed that some temperament SA cichlids start to show more temperament and aggression if they reach abouth 1/2 the size of their maximum size. So I expect you will have a couple of months to arrange something for the rotkiels. I'd follow the advice of Blair on this! I'm not experienced with rotkeils.


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## Zack2112

Thanks for the replys, I appreciate your responses. I didn't expect to find anyone who had any experience with this, I just need a temp home for the Rotkeils. I was more worried about the Bolivians picking on the rotties for now. By the time I really have to worry about the Rotkeils going after the bolivians I should have a new home for them. Unfortunately there are no LFS around here that would hold either of the fish (LFS around here are quite sad) I do plan on selecting 1 or 2 of the best Rotkeils and sharing the rest with those trying to find some. Im not positive at the moment, but i really wanted to get a Rotkiel and just couldn't pass it up. My dominant bolivian can be kind of an *** to the others two bolivans, i will just watch carefully. Im also rescaping the tank in a couple weeks when i have a free weekend, ill be adding lots more driftwood and some plants to break up the tank more. I will just watch them closely.

You guys have told me what i wanted to hear though, I'm glad you think it should be fine in the short term.

Oh, I just had another thought, I know a 20h is too small for the bolivians, however, would it be a good idea to put the bolivians in their own 20h for a day or two while the Rotties get used to their new home? Could this cut down on the aggression toward the Rotties?


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## Dutch Dude

I would not be to woried abouth the rotties. I'll expect some quarreling. The small tank comes in handy when things don't work out. You can put the Bolivians in there if they don't get along. If Rotties are so rare over there they probably are expensive right? If so you can grow them a bit and sell them and buy a larger tank. The curent tank would be nice for the Bolivians and a larger tank would be more suitable for 1 or 2 rotties.


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## Hack022

looks like I made it to the club on the Saturday.

I found a local breeder who had 6, 1 years olds that he happily gave me. Based on the sexing guide it'd say I got 4m and 2f. Low and behold I get home from work today and there are eggs on the large piece of driftwood I have in the tank. The breeder was pretty sure I'd end up with a least a pair, but wow that was quick.

My camera doesn't take the best tank photos but I'll post some

Question: There are 6 in a 35g tank and I have a breeding pair. Do I pull everyone else out and put them in my 90g SA community tank. Should I keep the other female such that there is 1m 2f in the tank. FYI I have 4 rummynose tetra's as dithers?

Thanks in advance



















Wish I coul dget better pictures to sex, but my camera just doesn't take good close-ups through the glass


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## Dutch Dude

Well 6 in a 35 is quit stuffed. But,...not impossible to do although it will never be my advice to do so. By the looks of it the tank is densely planted and does provide a lot of cover. I expect the 6 of them be fine in that tank. As for the breeding couple,....they might loos fry,..if not all the fry becouse the other Bolivians will snack on them. You have several options. Leaving the pair on his own is one of them. An other is siphon the fry out of the tank when they are at least free swimming or when the other inhabitants start to snack on them. Keep in mind that raising Bolivians takes quit some time. They need to be in your care for at least 5 months before they can be sold to an lfs. I prefer selling around 8 months becouse at that age they already show most of their adult colors. So all depends on your goal with the fry. What are the inhabitants of the 90 gallon?


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## Hack022

I'd like to raise some fry as part of the hobby experiance, but I'm not looking to breed for selling/showing.

I think I'd like to remove 2 of the sub males to the 90g, but would like to hear others thoughts.

90g stock (heavily planted with driftwood and caves)

12--marble hatchets
14--pencil fish
2-apistos (pair)
5-Lat D's
4--corys


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## NonstickRon

I've got 1. Had bought a male and a female but one of them died shortly after bringing it home despite my efforts to save it.

Here's my boy (i think?). He's currently king of the tank.


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## mallic9381

hi everyone im new to this forum, can anyone help me identify which of these rams are male or female pls, and r they going to have more colours in the future thanku


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## AnDyF_27

in the 2nd pic the ram in the back that is bigger than the one in front of it is a female. always look at the belly, the female will show pink where as the male doesn't ,also there will b irridescent blue dots around the black spot they have, males rarely have these dots they might have 2 to 4 dots around the black spot, again very rarely will u see that
so just look at the belly and the black spot


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## AnDyF_27

the 3rd pic shows what i mean


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## mallic9381

so u think the ram in the first pic is a female too?


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## Tak17

Hi, I've been trying to breed Bolivian Rams for a couple months now. I have 2 males, 3 females, and I have them at the right temperature, pH, Nitrates, etc. The only problem is the water hardness is very high in my area, about 240 ppm (mg/L) for KH and about 180 ppm (mg/L) for GH. Does anyone know how sensitive Bolivian Rams are to water hardness as far as breeding is concerned?


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## blairo1

Generally if the water is too hard the eggs will not develop properly, but the Bolivians do have a tendency to surprise us by breaking the "rules" sometimes.

In a KH of 13 I can't see the eggs developing I'm afraid, that is incredibly hard water! Are you certain the KH and GH readings aren't mixed up?

....

Here's my favourite juvenile male at the moment, showing that these really are small sand sifters:









The juveniles are getting there, the females are ripe and colourful ready for breeding, another month and I should start to see some pairing and breeding activity. The "oldboy" is amping up the pressure on his young lady friends :lol:.


----------



## Zack2112

I have a story I just thought I would share, I found it kind of interesting. There is no importance of this post, just something I thought some may like to hear.

When I first bought my bolivians I thought I had 2 males, and 2 females. They were very young so it was hard to tell. One of the suspected females got a bad case of pop eye and was quarantined and treated for a couple of weeks, they eye went back down but seemed useless after that. The fish seemed to be very weak and stressed still but I kept up with it in quarantine for an extra month. In my 60 it had become apparent that i had 2 males and a female. Yesterday I got 10 baby F1 Rotties, with no where else to hold them I put them in my 60 with the rams and tetra. When I added the rotkeils I also reintroduced my female bolivian that had seemed to get better(except for the eye.) The rotkeils were all great but I was very worried about the bolivian. it was being picked on and poked at on the side of the bad eye, I added lots of clay pots to give it some cover from the others until I have time to re-scape the tank this weekend. It was very stressed, swam kinda leaned to the good side, and was hanging out in a pot in the back corner of the tank. Today when I got home from school I checked on the tank to see my dominant male hanging out away from his usual spot.... I took a look where he usually hangs out and what one do you think was there? Thats right, the female with one eye. Another surprise came of this too. It is not a female. Now that it is comfortable in the tank its stress spots are gone, the fins are up and color has popped like mad. Must have been all that bottled up anger that made him determined to be the new boss :lol: . Ha Ha You gotta love bolivians.

I just found this to be quite interesting and thought I would share. I would never have suspected this fish would rule the tank.


----------



## Tak17

blairo 1,

Two of my rams were courting a little when I first got them, but they have yet to pair. yes, the water readings are correct, but will this extremely hard water prevent them from courting or spawning in the first place?

Thanks,

Tak17


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## hey_wood1981

i have 5 bolivian rams in a 90 gallon. 4 males, 1 female. no one has paired up with the female :-? 
is there anything i can do to help encourage a hook up? i've had the group for about a year.


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## Hubbynz

Zack thats a pretty crazy story

Well a quick update on the three skinny bolivians I got hold of three weeks ago. Well they are starting to fatten up nicely and I have just purchased some NLS so hopefully they will colour up nicely.

Well anyway I need some helping sexing what I think is a male as I am planning to remove the third bolivian as it seems two are pairing up...but I want to make 100% sure it is a male first.

The pair hang together in the same part of the tank all the time and chasing off the third if it comes near. The "male" is also aggressive with the lil female but no way near as much or as often with the third one. Usually when the male comes at the female she drops her head in submission and leaves her alone.

The "male" does not have cadual fin extensions but his tail is more in a lyreate shape than the others which are more truncate of flatter and his 2nd and third spikes are longer than the rest. From Blairo's sexing guide his vent looks more male but I'm not sure??? :-? :-? Please help

Another further question is that my Bolivians all look alot darker than everyone elses....is that because of the dark substrate as my panda corries look more of a light tan brown than white??

Anyway here are the pics


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## fredtex

Hay all, well since my first spawn vanished? I took the placo's out and my bolivian's spawned agian. that was 3 week's ago now I have about 30, 1/2 in. fry in a 10g. you was right when said they grow fast the first few week's thank's agian for all the help.


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## Dutch Dude

Zack,..... :lol: :lol: :lol: Bolivians keep on surprising you every time aren't they. I have also a story to share. Abouth 2 years ago I was the owner of some "Geophagus" brasiliensis. Not the best choice but when I bought them they were lovely peaceful fish. When they reached a size of 8 inch their temperament developed. I also had a group of 7 Bolivians in that tank. Once a pair of the Bolivians were cleaning a potential spawning site on the right of the tank. When the large brasiliensis went by he immediately get attacked by the Bolivian! It punched in his side and all fins up and head shaking and tail whipping towards the 8 inch Brasiliensis. :lol: Such a funny sight!!! But,.....I was stunned the small Bolivian even did a lip lock!!! Imagine that!!! I could not belive my eyes! The brasiliensis could have eaten him alive! At first I though he would eat the small guy but no! His eyes went big, fins got stretched and probably he was so surprised about this behaviour of the small Bolivian that he went off. The Bolivian was the winner! Hard to belive but a true story! Later on the brasiliensis became aggressive and pushed around all the bolivians and pleco's so I had to sell him. This story and the story of Zack proves that Bolivians are brave fish with lots of character!

Hubby,....2 Bolivians aren't the best chance for long term success. I recommend small groups of 5 or more. The fish on the first pic is probably a female. Dough the vent is pointed backwards but I have seen this more often with young or skinny females. I can't be absolutely sure abouth this so I would say,...most likely a female. The darker colors are coused by the stress spots. Almost every scale has a small dark spot on it and this is making the fish darker.


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## Hubbynz

Well I did it, bit the bullet and and very very reluctantly returned my large male convict to the LFS (he killed my prize female about 2 months ago). So this freed up an extra 20 gallon high (78 litre) tank which I decided to give a revamp and move my Bolivians into.

Here are pics of the previous setup which I was not happy with as it did not take advantage of the tank height (48cm) and had limited plants as the con would destroy them all.










Here are pics of the revamp. I managed to locate two really nice large pieces of driftwood that look like trees roots. I am trying to create the environment of tree roots growing up through the water and they extend about 8cm out of the top of the water. I have attached anubias, java fern and some moss to the roots.

I also added a cute lil juve Keyhole to the tank who follows the three Bolivains everywhere. As I suspected the Bolivains would not look so dark on a lighter substrate although they are a lil washed out with the tank switch. I was considering added one maybee two more Bolivains to the tank and some high stem plants maybee val or something. I will add more moss to the wood once I grow more.

Anyways I'm really stoked with the new look but I am still looking for more ways to improve it.


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## Dutch Dude

Hubbynz,....very nice tank! For the size and shape you realy made an nice aquascape!!! Unfortunately a tank this size and this dimensions does have a small footprint,.....I hope your Bolivians manage to sort out their territories. They do show some stress spots on the pics but I assume they are fairly new to the tank.


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## tigger101023

I have a brand new bolivian ram (first one ever) - I am working on pictures to help get is sexed as I just can't tell. Anyway, I got this one because it was the healthiest looking (to me) and picking on the remaining fish in the tank. I got it 2 nights ago, yesterday it was fairly pale and shy, today it's darkened up with what I believe to be stress bars and appears to be chasing it's own reflection in the acrylic - trying to lip lock and such. I remember seeing it lip lock with other fish in the store. Is this normal behavior? It's not bothering any tankmates (tetra, pencilfish, clown pleco). Will it calm down after a little while?


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## Dutch Dude

A single Bolivian is a bad idea. He or she will be stressed most of the time. They prefer to live in small groups. Maybe it is whise to get another 4 (depending on the size of the tank!!!!). Stressed Bolivians show small black dots all over. They also quarel quit a bit with theyr fellow Bolivians. That normal behaviour and this social behaviour is what makes Bolivians fun and interesting fish. One moment they quarel or even lip lock and an other they seek for each other company and swim side by side.


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## Dutch Dude

More info on here http://www.brc.moonfruit.com/


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## tigger101023

I didn't intend for it to be alone forever, but the store's stock was low and with the was this guy was picking on the others. I was going to wait until they get their next shipment and get this one sexed. I don't care about breeding - the behavior would be nice, but I won't be raising fry. I just assumed 2 boys would be bad. I'll read your article, too - thanks!


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## Dutch Dude

Nothing wrong with your intentions and short term no problem.



> I was going to wait until they get their next shipment


The abouve can be a problem. For some reason there is a gained demanding for Bolivians but good qualety is rare. When fish stores buy them they are hard to sell becouse most fish will be poor looking and pail colored in the lfs. This is the reason they aren't among the frequent stock. It might take a while before you walk into a new reasonable qualety batch. Did you checked aqua-bid for example?

I hope the content of the article was helpful and I assume you also checked Blair his article on sexing Bolivians?


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## michelle767

Hey all. Wanted to join in on the Bolivian ram conversation. I currently have three, one male and two females, in a 29G. They were breeding regularly until I added a dwarf gourami to the mix, who has been chasing them around mercilessly - he's getting booted soon. Unfortunately, they're not the most attractive bolivians I've seen. They don't have much color or finnage. But they were the only ones I could get around here. (If anyone has some lookers they'd like to sell, please let me know.)

But I really posted because I wanted to talk about my first Bolivian, Mama. The first tank I got about five years ago was a 29G that I didn't know to cycle first. Of course, I inadvertently killed several fish in the process of trying to get it going. I was checking craigslist, though, for an already cycled tank and found someone who was selling one. It was a 20L and came with Mama and her brood of 5 juvies, about an inch long. (Bolivian senior was ancient and had turned black, so I thought it best not to move him). The 20L worked out and I was able to transfer some of the filter material and decorations over to the 29 to get it going. But in the meantime I fell in love with Mama and her brood. I had her for about a year and a half (she was already about 2 1/2 when I got her) and then she died when I had some complications while moving. I gave some of the brood to my parents and some to others when I was downsizing. I'm kicking myself now for it.

Here's to Mama. I probably wouldn't be as fish-obsessed now if it weren't for her. She was huge, by the way. I've never seen a Bolivian as big.


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## ridley25

More sexing help if anyone is bored. I have 4 in my 29 gallon. They've been in there for a few months with no issues. I'm afraid to remove any because of my inexperience...I don't want to end up with two males!







































...and one because he/she looks so cute...


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## Hubbynz

Ok well Dutchdude and Blair are defo the best at sexing but I will say that the top one is defo a female and the third one is possibly male (tail fin extensions?)

Here is an update on mine who are feeling at home in their new tank. As you can see they are alot fatter than a couple of months ago and finally their yellow is starting to come out nicely.

Can some please help me sex my big one who I think is male...as you can see he has a backwards facing vent, possible beginnings of fin extensions and is totally different shape to the females.

Hope it is a male otherwise I have three females. :-(

Sorry about the poor quality of the pics I am waiting on a new light for the tank.


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## D-007

1st picture: the one in the foreground is female; the one in the background looks to be a male ... but .... hard to be certain due to the fish's swimming angle. Dutch or Blairo will probably know for sure.

2nd picture: female as your 3rd picture is of the same fish but closer.


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## Dutch Dude

On the first pic the fish in front (to the left) is definitely a female. The one at the right is a bit harder to tell but this could very well be a female as well. Your fish surely beefed up nicely! You have done an excellent job Chris!

Males vents are smaler and more pointed backwards while female vents are larger and more blunt. Often the vents of females are les pointed backwards but I noticed that this isn't always the case with young fish.


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## D-007

ridley25 said:


> More sexing help if anyone is bored. I have 4 in my 29 gallon. They've been in there for a few months with no issues. I'm afraid to remove any because of my inexperience...I don't want to end up with two males!



*ridley* the first picture is a female.

This one I think is a male but I couldn't zoom into it to be difinite.









The other pictures didn't show vents so I couldn't tell.

If you want to try yourself at sexing them, have a look at Blairo's *website* and go to the Articles section then the Sexing Guide - this is how I learned how to sex them and am now more confident at doing so. Plus it allows me to help Blairo and Dutch Dude in that respect (they are the Master's on it though; I'm just the Padawin :lol: )

8) 
D


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## blairo1

The last fish pictured in D007s post looks male to me as well, so you've obviously learnt well, young padawan.









A lot of characteristics do point to that one having more in common with females (ie the shorter pelvic fins, lack of extensions on the caudal, 3rd and 4th spinuous rays not extended on dorsal) but head shape and that ventricle points towards male. I bet this is a frisky fish, right?

Your first pic of your post looks female, I can't see the rest too well but from my general inclination I'd say males.

Hubbynz I believe D007 nailed it on yours.

See, you're better than you thought D .


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## Chris2500DK

So bolivians just became my number one consideration for my revamped tank.

I was originally considering german rams with cardinal tetras, but my environmental conscience (and the rising electricity costs) makes me wince at the thought of heating a tank to 82F-ish for ze germans. I don't want to be responsible for killing off those cute and cuddly polar bears!

The tank is 40 gallons, 32" wide, 19" wide and 16" high, and I've just finished decorating it yesterday. Hopefully it should be suitable for them.










I was thinking something like 6 bolivian rams, 20 neon tetras and 3 siamese algae eaters (the real ones). How does that sound?

I would try to get 2m/4f but how important is the sex ratio in case I'm unable to sex them accurately in the shop?


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## blairo1

Hi Chris, excellent aquascape and your plans are sound.

At the small size in the LFS getting them right isn't entirely essential at this stage, just go with your best inclination and you can always switch them around when problems present themselves at a later date.

I would like to see how you've attached your overhanging root clusters, how does that fit in with your hood? Pics please! I like this design but I would probably have to cut my hood to incorporate it, although you may have just tempted me too far....

:thumb:


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## Chris2500DK

Thanks for the quick reply Blairo 

This is the tank from a distance, the light is a 70W 10000K MH.









The roots are attached with suction cups and zip ties and are tangled into each other for stability. It's pretty simple really, hopefully it'll hold up. I attached them to the canister filter plumbing as well.

I'm not sure how visible it is from the picture but at the centre back there's a cluster of Pistia which I'm hoping will spread out to cover most of the surface eventually.
Also, all the larger rocks are actually hollow rock modules, so the fish can use them for caves.


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## Chris2500DK

Double post.


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## ridley25

Chris2500DK,

Stunning tank. I too am hoping to do the 'roots/branches poking into the water' thing for an Acei tank I'll be setting up. Don't be afraid to be too nerdy by posting more pictures of how you did it, or how it's holding up!

kevin


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## Chris2500DK

Thanks Kevin 

Here's another shot without the cover on










As you can see, the roots just break the surface, and I've used cable ties to attach suction cups to the ends. The big one in the far corner is attached to the nozzle from the filter return so it's really stable, and all the roots are tangled so they support each other.

I ended up not going with Bolivians this time around. The ones I could get my hands on didn't look too nice, and the LFS had some really pretty Honduran red points so I ended up going with those.
Some day when I'm redoing a tank or the girlfriend lets me put up another I'll end up with bolivians (if I can find good ones at that time).

I'll be posting about the tank in the Central American part of the forum when there's news


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## ridley25

Thanks Chris. I'll save your picture for my future plans. It sounds like, at the very least, I should plan on mounting my lights above the tank as opposed to in the hood.


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## Dutch Dude

Chris,.....realy an awesome tank :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: I realy like the aquascape!!! It is hard to get roots like that over here and I would have liked those for my tanks as well. Unfortunately you didn't get a hold on good qualety Bolivians. Bolivians or Honduran red points ,...your tank is amazing! Keep up the good work and I hope it inspires more people to create a more natural look.


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## Chris2500DK

It should be possible for you to buy them from here (Denmark) and have them shipped to you in Holland. If you want I can send you a few links to webshops selling them and you can contact them about shipping costs to Holland.


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## Dutch Dude

The real qualety roots found in peat are rarely availeble over here and what is availeble is from Germany. Thanks Chris for the offer but I think the shipping costs make the roots become very expensive. Maybe you still can post the links so I can take a peek at the prices and maybe some board members from your aria are interested as well. I expect it to be fine to post the links over here becouse it won't effect the sponsors on this board. Right now I'm experimenting with using oak branches. I put them in a water drum and see how they come out after the winter. I hope the wood will be hardened by the long period in the water. I already have a large quantity of driftwood (the cheap stuff) but finding branches like parts is very difficult.


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## D-007

A bit late in the game but I also wanted to say well done with the tank Chris :thumb: I looks really, really nice.

Pity you weren't able to get the Rams but as you said, hopefully for the next tank :wink:

Oh, regarding:



Chris2500DK said:


> I was thinking something like 6 bolivian rams, 20 neon tetras and 3 siamese algae eaters (the real ones). How does that sound?


I would get 5 Otocinclus instead of the Siamese Algae Eaters; just my thoughts 8)

Regards,
D


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## rjh5791

What is the differencer between males and females?


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## Chris2500DK

There's a sexing guide here http://brc.moonfruit.com/#/sexingguide/4528902946


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## klopek

Okay I can't say that I read every single post in this thread but I did skim through most. And it is because of this thread and others on this site that piqued my interest in Bolivians, so much so that I started up a tank specifically just for them. Here is a few photos of my new guys:




























They have only been in the tank for just a few days but seem to be swimming around all over. I purchased 6 young little guys and am having a great time watching their antics

Frank


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## dogdoc

O.K. I'm in. I have been trying to find some of these to order for a while. Couldn't find them on Aquabid or any of the usual suspects. Finally talked my LFS into ordering some for me. So I brought home 7 to live in my 75g planted tank. I'll try to get some pics soon.


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## edburress

klopek... Nice youngsters :thumb:

dogdoc... welcome to the BRC!


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## edburress

I haven't been on this thread in a while (I've been too distracted with my Geos 8) ) but wanted to do an update. This is a female, one of my fry from August 2007. So she's 15 months old now, she's spawned 10-12 times but is just now developing some nice breeding coloration. I wanted to show her development, so here she is at 5 months








and again at 8 months








and again at 15 months








She actually is starting to become reminiscent of her dad...







[/i]


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## D-007

Nice specimens klopek :thumb:

Welcome to BRC dogdoc and can't wait to see the pics :wink:

Wow, she looks gorgeous Ed and the transformation was great to see I bet.


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## Hubbynz

Ed they look amazing I wish mine looked half as good as them :-(


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## cc_woman

Beautiful girl :thumb: I love seeing fish grow up from babies, it is so much more of an experience worth having 

Just a question guys, since I cannot find the answer on any sites I have visited. What is the maximum age BR's usually live for? And I used to have 2 male BR's, then I got 3 more of them from a friend. I was hoping I would get some females out of the bunch but no, of course I got all males, so now I have 5 males in my 90 gallon tank. Is this fine as long as there are no females around? They have been living this way for a couple of months now and from time to time I see a couple of them go at it, but they never hurt each other.


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## cc_woman

Beautiful girl :thumb: I love seeing fish grow up from babies, it is so much more of an experience worth having 

Just a question guys, since I cannot find the answer on any sites I have visited. What is the maximum age BR's usually live for? And I used to have 2 male BR's, then I got 3 more of them from a friend. I was hoping I would get some females out of the bunch but no, of course I got all males, so now I have 5 males in my 90 gallon tank. Is this fine as long as there are no females around? They have been living this way for a couple of months now and from time to time I see a couple of them go at it, but they never hurt each other.


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## Dutch Dude

Realy wonderful fish Ed :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: Thanks for sharing the pics and to see the development from fry to adult.

Right now my young tank raised pair (11 months of age) spawned for the first time (witch is late). I ame amazed that they get it right in the first spawn and exactly know what they have to do. They fanned the eggs, covered them with sand, picked out the hatching eggs and put them in a deep pit in the sand. So far they dug the deepest pit I ever seen of Bolivians. A nice clutch of wigglers are in there and I expect them to become free swimming by Thursday or Friday.

CC-woman,....normally Bolivians become around 5 years of age. Thats for the good qualety fish of course but unfortunately lots of poor qualety come from SE Asia. As for their maximum age,.... When I bought my first batch of Bolivians they were an excellent qualety and quit large in size. Since them I never seen such a good qualety over here in the shops and even my home bred offspring of Czech bred Bolivians aren't the qualety of the first batch I owned. That first batch were originaly 8 fish. One of them died in the first couple of months. Of the remaining 7 fish, 4 of them became around 4 to 5 years. The age of 5 years can be taken as normal live span. The remaining 3 became 6 1/2 to 7 years of age. I think this is quit rare and never heard of someone who had Bolivians of 6+ years of age. I think the reason for those 3 fish become 6+ of age has to do with the good qualety strain but also a high number of good qualety foods. I feed Tetra discus pellets, (back then also Tetra color pro and vegitable flakes) and every day some frozen like chopped mussles/cockles, artemis, bloodworms and so on. The main food was the high qualety flakes and pellets and in addition the frozen. The lower water temperature of 24C to 25C could also be a reason for the long live span. Metabolism slows down and this might increase their live span.


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## JustNick

Hi Everyone

I have long admired Bolivian Rams and as soon as I bought my new tank I decided that they would be the fish I would design my tank around.

This week the local pet store (independantly run :thumb finally got in some bolivians so tonigth i popped in to see about 6 rams, all looked alright so I decided to pick up three in order to get at least some females. I was half-certain on one of them beiong female but I am aware that females can look like males and vice versa. That, and the assistant wasn't the most patient for me to look thorugh them all carefully.

On the journey home I could feel some commotion in the bag, at that point I knew I had picked up at least two males. After plopping them all in the tank I have had time to look over them carefully, and yep, you've guessed it, 3 males in a 30g. Brilliant.

The tank has been runnign for about 3 months now had has 5 Zebra Danios, a BN Plec and 4 tiny guppy fry I picked up by accident when stealing some weed from my dad haha. There is one large peice of root and a smaller one surrounded by lots of thick plants. The Bolivians have chosen their territories; one over the large piece of wood covered in algae, one underneath it on the pebble, and the third under plants with sand....and the BN. The more tatty Bolivian under the wood keeps trying to get to the sand and plant area and is naturally being pushed back. Anythign I can do or should I consider spiltting them up?

I will try to get a female to replace my pair that aren't the best looking and see what happens. I would keep them all but I just don't have the space.

Second time lucky!

Nick


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## ted29

Just one question for edburress. Was the young girl at 15 months flaring her gills at you when you took the photo? Beautiful pictures. :thumb:


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## IN2_Rams

Hello all,

I lost my rams about a month ago. I can't explain what happened except that the female started staying on the floor of the aquarium and really didn't eat or move. The two remaining males died shortly after she did. This is an older tank and I've been following the same regiment for years. I've tested the water and my conditions are stable. I can buy old age if it were one - even two. But all three have me baffled!

The pristella tetras are doing great and showing strong colors. The pleco and cory are all doing well, too. Water is pH=8, am=0, nitates are good. Like I said, though, they've been in this tank for at least a year.

I don't want to restock without knowing what went on and no one else has shown any abnormal signs during this month. I hope you all can help!


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## edburress

Thanks for the kind words everyone!

*ted29*... she was flaring at her mate, luckily they don't mind my camera being right in their face :lol:


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## blairo1

*IN2_Rams*
We need a ton of information, KH, GH, pH, Temp, WC regime, Dechlorinator used... before we can even make a guess as to what may have caused it.

There are so many variables, one thing you might try to remember is if you'd washed up/cleaned your car/changed oil etc (anything with potential contaminate) on a day when you would have introduced your hand to the tank (through feeding or otherwise - having oil on your hand and handling food is a quick way to cause some problems).


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## ridley25

So I'm fairly certain that I have 3 males and 1 female in my planted 29g. The other inhabitants are 3 Metae cories, 12 Rummynose tetras and 1 Bristlenose pleco.
They've been together since September 5th with no issues - there are regular squabbles, but they're short.
I'm thinking of giving two of the males to good homes, but if I'm left with 1m/1f who don't like each other, will the male harass the female into bad health?
I'm afraid to pull the trigger here because I'm not experienced enough to know if the female is bonded with any of the males. She has a nice niche in the back of the tank and has nice colour, so I don't want to ruin what could be a stable situation.

Thanks,

kevin


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## andrew__

Hello! Been a while since I've popped in here. Quick couple of questions - What is the best food for fry? Can they eat Hikari First Bites... until they can take crushed flake for example? I've never gotten this far with a spawn before due to tetras but a recent filter crash killed off my last tetras in this tank, and the panicked water change I did when I found it I think brought them into "the mood" :wink:

And now that the questions are out of the way... pictures!

Female:



Male:



Neither wanted to show their spots off while I was taking pictures :roll:


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## edburress

Very nice bolivians Andrew :thumb: It looks like they have a nice natural looking tank to live in as well.

They can eat First Bites from very early on. After they get big enough to eat crushed flakes and pellets, IME they'll eat anything you put in there. Goodluck with the fry!

Ed


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## andrew__

Thanks. Do I start feeding once they're free swimming?


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## Dutch Dude

> Thanks. Do I start feeding once they're free swimming?


Yep! At least 5 times a day but preferable 7 times. Good luck :thumb:


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## andrew__

Dutch Dude said:


> Thanks. Do I start feeding once they're free swimming?
> 
> 
> 
> Yep! At least 5 times a day but preferable 7 times. Good luck :thumb:
Click to expand...

!! Fortunately I'm currently employed in a "seasonal position". Shouldn't be a problem :thumb:


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## andrew__

They've started exploring their tank and swimming just a bit for short bursts. I'll be setting up a tank for the fry when I get a spare minute... but so far their father's doing an excellent job with them.

Here's a crappy pic (these guys are small!)


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## andrew__

Here are a few better shots:

Proud dad with kids:










A little fuzzy (had to bump up the ISO to get these shots without flash)


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## Dutch Dude

Looks good Andrew and so far the parents do fine. Are you already feeding? Well fed fish have orange bellies and this is a helpful indicator. Personally I prefer to feed bbs and feed hikari first bites after 3 to 4 weeks as extra food. Lots of people grow the fry on only first bites. I think first bites is the best powder food available and I definitely recommend it.



> Fortunately I'm currently employed in a "seasonal position". Shouldn't be a problem


 This definitely helps with all the feedings and in a couple of weeks also a lot of water changes. A nitrate level below 15 creates a normal growth. If the nitrate is lower they might grow faster and larger and if the nitrate is higher as 15 it might slow them realy down in growth,...something you don't want becouse Bolivians are already very slow growing fish. The first 7 weeks is OK but after that they slow down. Thanks for sharing the pics :thumb:


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## ridley25

> So I'm fairly certain that I have 3 males and 1 female in my planted 29g. The other inhabitants are 3 Metae cories, 12 Rummynose tetras and 1 Bristlenose pleco.
> They've been together since September 5th with no issues - there are regular squabbles, but they're short.
> I'm thinking of giving two of the males to good homes, but if I'm left with 1m/1f who don't like each other, will the male harass the female into bad health?
> I'm afraid to pull the trigger here because I'm not experienced enough to know if the female is bonded with any of the males. She has a nice niche in the back of the tank and has nice colour, so I don't want to ruin what could be a stable situation.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> kevin


Bump


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## D-007

ridley25 said:


> So I'm fairly certain that I have 3 males and 1 female in my planted 29g. The other inhabitants are 3 Metae cories, 12 Rummynose tetras and 1 Bristlenose pleco.
> They've been together since September 5th with no issues - there are regular squabbles, but they're short.
> I'm thinking of giving two of the males to good homes, but if I'm left with 1m/1f who don't like each other, will the male harass the female into bad health?
> I'm afraid to pull the trigger here because I'm not experienced enough to know if the female is bonded with any of the males. She has a nice niche in the back of the tank and has nice colour, so I don't want to ruin what could be a stable situation.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> kevin
> 
> 
> 
> Bump
Click to expand...

I would be inclined to remove only one of the males and replace it with a female if possible, that way you still have a chance of at least 1 pair. The only thing I'd be concerned about is the tank size and territorial disputes. However, heavy planting and driftwood placement can help keep that down.

Obviously, optimum water parameters would be required too.


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## D-007

Awesome pics Andrew!!! Congrats and thanks for sharing :thumb:


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## Dutch Dude

Kevin (Ridley) Sorry I didn't responded. I spend les time on C-F so I don't read all the posts any more.

To answer your questions,....the short squabbles are normal behaviour and this is the social behaviour people talk abouth if it comes to bolivians. If the 4 of them do good now I don't see a reason to take the 2 extra males out. Bolivians do best in small groups. You indeed take the risk with a young pair that doesn't work out and the male chase the female to death.



> so I don't want to ruin what could be a stable situation


I agrea so I would advice to keep it like it is OR replace one or two of the males for females. If females aren't availeble I would keep it like it is.


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## ridley25

Thanks for the replies. Until I'm able to definitively source another nice female or two, I'll leave things as is.

kevin


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## Dutch Dude

Kevin,...I think that is a whise decision. I hoop you find some nice females later on.

Ruurd


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## andrew__

Had to move my female due to aggression. Male's still doing a good job protecting the very free swimming fry - the more they swim though the less likely a pleco or cory will be able to get them and the happier I am. They seem to be eating so that's good. :thumb: growing a fair bit each day as well. I've just got another day of work then I can focus on getting my fry tank setup and going. Going to try to get it setup on my desk so i can watch them all day opcorn:


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## leamos

This is just what i need. I bought an adult pair a few weeks ago, put them in a 2ft planted with 2 danios and a cory. Everything was fine, swimming around together, then the male started becoming overly agro towards the female so i rearrange the tank a bit to give the female a bigger slice of the tank, now the female has the best spawning sites on her side. The male sits on the edge of her territory and begs and digs little drenches towards her to get her attention. But she doesn't want a bar of him now. Been feeding live blackworms, frozen brine and bloodworm flakes, and doing 15 - 20% water changes every 5 or so days. What now? are they about to spawn?


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## Dutch Dude

> Everything was fine, swimming around together, then the male started becoming overly agro towards the female


When a male and female bond as a pair the male checks the strength of the female to test out if she is able to raise fry. This often appears as quarreling, flaring and even lip locks. This is easy confused as aggression but in fact it is part of their spawning behaviour. When a female isn't ready or doesn't meet the standard the male acquires for his partner and the mother for his fry things can turn negative. The male can chase the female all around the tank and with overly territorial males this can even lead to her death. Thats why I recommend to keep Bolivians in small groups of 5 or more. In your case the behaviour sounds like normal pre spawning behaviour of a young couple. The male started to dig pits in the substrate and this is definitely preparing for a spawn. In this stage males leave the females alone for most of the time and spend a lot of time on preparing the pits were they will shelter their fry for the first 10 day's after hatching. When the male has finished he will gain in color and come and visit the female more often and showing off his nice colors.

I'm convinced you will have some eggs very soon!


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## leamos

Thanks dutch dude, i really hope so. The pair is the 2ft until my geo tank is up and running. and when i move them across i was planning on adding a few more fish. Just looking over at the tank and the female is stunning, all the colour and fine detailed patterns on her fins of her geo cousins


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## Dutch Dude

Im convinced they will spawn for you leamos and the strong colors are also an indicator. This is the period Bolivians are at their best coloration and all the colors boost up and they realy look awesome. I also like to watch the "dances" they make with the head shaking and showing off. Mostly the first spawns end up fungus or eaten but once they get it right they can spawn every 3 weeks for you. So there will be plenty of chanses. I think they will like the future larger home and I defenately would put some more in there. Their care is basically the same as for Geophagus (also the foods) and like you wrote,.....take a good look and you will see the resembles not only in body shape but also in behaviour. Good luck and do you let us know when they have spawned? I say within 2 weeks from now and I'm qurious if that gamble is right :wink:


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## fredtex

Happy new Year ya all, may all your spawn's be big one's! :thumb:


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## leamos

The female does this display where she's almost vertical and flares all her fins and puffs out her throat, the male as you said isn't paying her much attention(maybe 1 visit an hour) and then back to his terracotta pot, as for pit digging this male must of been a council worker coz not alots being done. Female on the other hand is cleaning her pebbles and doing her best to keep the danios and cory out of her patch. Its wierd every other cichlid i have breed its the male going off his tree.

I was looking at the sexing guide on moonfriut site and my pair contradict the vent pic!?!?! The female(who is smaller and has rounded 'cockatoo like' dorsal fin) has a small backward pointing vent at the moment. and the male (bigger with the long narrow spines) appears to have more of an egg tube thing going on. I'm confused!!!

Also,How come there's 4 or 5 variants of GBR, and only the one BR?(or is there) when BR are easier to breed and raise


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## leamos

Tried to get pics of the female in all her glory, i apologise for the quality i'm a 'button basher'
























NB you can see the male sulking over by his pot in this last one


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## leamos

She's getting more and more gold by the minute, there's only half an hour between the first pic in the last post and this one
















This is the male straight out of the bag from the shop hence the distress patterning


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## D-007

leamos said:


> (SNIP) .... this male must of been a council worker coz not alots being done.



Love the analogy ... I know exactly what you are talking about; :lol: 



leamos said:


> I was looking at the sexing guide on moonfriut site and my pair contradict the vent pic!?!?! The female(who is smaller and has rounded 'cockatoo like' dorsal fin) has a small backward pointing vent at the moment. and the male (bigger with the long narrow spines) appears to have more of an egg tube thing going on. I'm confused!!!


Could you be mistaken about which one is the female and which one is the male? Venting is 100% correct but using finnage etc isn't and plenty of what were thought of as being male were in fact females and vice versa. Even I got it wrong when I first got my female; at first I thought she was a he :lol: That was before I learnt how to vent them.


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## andrew__

wow, that is the most colourful ram I've ever seen :thumb: (and I've read _almost_ all 98 pages here :roll: )

In less exciting news I believe one of my plecos ate my remaining fry and caused some pretty bad damage to my male who is missing a small piece of his gill plate (I think it was a pleco because one of my plecos had also taken some damage, but only on his fins).

My male's being treated and looks like he'll be ok. Watching closely for fungus etc but he's acting normal, no stress spots at all, eating well. He'll be joining my female in the 65 gal once he's healed up and the next time I want to breed them I'll set up their own little tank for it with no other inhabitants at all. (and have the tank fry proof too, sponge filter & all that fun stuff.)


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## Dutch Dude

The fish on the first series of pics is a male (smaler pointed backwards vent) and the stressed fish is hard to see but looks like a female to me. :wink: They appear to be young fish to me. When Bolivians are younger as 2 years they tend to have les orange in their belly and show more yellow. The red in the fins is poor dough and should be stronger around spawning. Maybe this gain later on. Both fish look healthy and have nice round filled bellies like they should have. Their body shape is also very nice and I think you have a nice couple there :thumb: I assume the female (last pic) does look more colored and les stressed? Do you have some pics of her so we can check if it is indeed a female or not?


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## leamos

Once again i apologise for the quality, yep he's a she and vice versa, well at least the guy at the LFS gave me a pair, u can see why he(and i for that matter) thought it was the other way round going by the finnage
















Can't really see it clearly, she's camera shy but the broader, rounder vent is there

ok makes a bit more sense now, i thought it was a bit odd for the 'female' to be taking the lead


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## klumsyninja

Hey there BRC, I don't want to hijcak a thread or anything but could I add Bolivans to this tank?

http://cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=185552

I already have 2 of them in a 20G but want to put them in here to free up that 20. I think I might add a couple more and make it 4 Bloivians.. you can PM me with the answer so as not to hijack this thread or whatever.. I tried reading the 98 pages but whoah...


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## edburress

klumsyninja... That's a beautiful tank :thumb: But I would never keep bolivians with T. meeki. I'd be ready to remove a lot of fish from your tank as they mature. That's way too many.


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## Chris2500DK

Woot! After a long search I'm finally a member of the BRC 

I have 5 2" bolivians in my tank with 19 neon tetras, 3m/3f endlers and 2 small ancistrus.

I'll try getting a few pictures tonight, too many reflections in the glass when it's light.


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## Chris2500DK

Got a picture of the tank, the bolivians didn't feel like standing still for closeups


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## edburress

Chris2500DK... Great tank :thumb:


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## Chris2500DK

Thanks 

I have a question about numbers. Right now I have 5 young bolivians, should I get another 5 of the same size and let them sort things out themselves and be prepared to remove any fish that are bullied, or would the 5 be about what I can expect to keep in the tank?


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## leamos

Beautiful tank......the only thing i would change is the neon's..... they take to much of the show away from the beautiful bolivians, nice school of danios would be my choice, but thats just me. Really nice setup but chris


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## Dutch Dude

Leamos,.....congrats you have a male and a female :wink:

Klumsyninja,....I agrea on Ed that the tank will be overstocked or at least aggression becomes an issue when the fish are growing to adults. I also agrea on removing some of the fish later on and don't add the Bolivians at all.

Cris,.....long time no see! Good to see the pics of your beautiful tank :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: I realy like it a lot and the neons look great!!! They also prefer the cooler water just like Bolivians. IMO 5 adult Bolivians is nice for this tank and 10 of them is definitely to much. If it was a realy densely planted tank with lots and lots of territorial markers and sight breaks 7 adults might have worked but I think your tank is to open for that. I would stick at 5 of them in the end but to temporarily put in some extra youngsters to make sure you end up with males and females is an option. I do want to advice to increase the number to 5 again when fish start to spawn for the first time.


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## Chris2500DK

Thanks Dutch Dude, I think I'll leave them as is until I can get them sexed. If the distribution is completely off then I'll get some more to get a better m/f ratio.


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## Dutch Dude

:thumb:


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## klumsyninja

Right, the plan never was to keep all those fish I was going to grow them out and keep the nicest of the group in an amount that will be happy. I decided not to do the Bolivians in there too. I don't want to stress them out at all they live a good life in my 20 I will just keep them in there. Thanks for your help guys, much appreciated.


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## leamos

This is where my little guys call home


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## leamos

Just watching the male standing on his head in the middle of the tank twitching and flashing his fins at the female, and changes his colours in seconds, changing from solid gold to yellow/gold with two dark bands/blotches across his forehead. then when all banded up he dances and jerks his way down over his rock. then turned away from the female and started dancing and flashing while back up towards the female. Female is taking more interest in his displays and the usual sparing on the boundary has turned to dancing and flashing, so fingers crossed

Did a another water change yesterday(30%) and added 1/2 dose of blackwater extract. Within minutes of adding the BWE the pair behaviour changed, might just be the catalyst they needed (god i'm impatient, the tank was only setup 18 dec)


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## Dutch Dude

Klumsyninja,....I think that was a whise decision. A 20 gallon is a nice size for your bolivians and keeping the nicest fish from the once in the larger tank. When fish start to mature the aggression increases so be prepared to take some out in a couple of months. 
By the way,.....the BRC treat is for Bolivian related questions and free to post on :wink:

Leamos,....nice tank!!! A small Bolivian paradise! Do you keep shrimp in there? It could be! For the behaviour of your Bolivians,.....definitely pre-spawning and it probably won't take long now. Feeding some frozen bloodworms can help the female to defelop the eggs. Large water changes also can trigger spawning just like the addition of BWE or peat. Be careful not to add to much so your PH doesn't change to much. A small change of PH could trigger dough.



> god I'm impatient, the tank was only setup 18 dec


 :lol: :lol: :lol: You are now but after a while you get used to all the spawning. They can spawn every 2 to 3 weeks fore around 8 months, take a short rest and start again :lol:


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## leamos

yeah been feeding bloodworms, will give the female a few more days to fully colour up (fins getting redder by the day) and do a 50 or 60% wc.......thats if they can wait that long 

i suspect my N. brichardi (tang.) pair has eggs in the tank next door, haven't seen them much in the last week. So i'll be sick of fry soon enough

On BWE, i was reading the product safety thingo online of the product i'm using and it says the product has a ph between 8 and 9?! Does it acidify the water once it begins to be breakdown?


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## Dutch Dude

> On BWE, i was reading the product safety thingo online of the product i'm using and it says the product has a ph between 8 and 9?! Does it acidify the water once it begins to be breakdown?


I'm not sure abouth this info. Basically black water extract is peat extract. As far as my knowledge goes peat extract should have a low PH. The purpose of peat extract is to soften the water and to add tannins and minerals (that are dissolved in the peat) so according to that it should also have a low PH. There is also an extract from Oak roots availeble that does the same as the peat extract only doesn't give the brown/yellow coloration to the water. If you want to soften the water you could also buy a bin, put an air pump on it and drop in water and peat. Let is sit for a couple of day's and use the water for waterchanges (or make a mix of tapwater and aged peat treated water).

For Bolivians it isn't necessary at all. Once they start spawning they often get triggered by a large water change.

Some protein rich foods helps defelop the eggs and keeps your Bolivians in a good shape.


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## leamos

here have a look - http://www.aristopet.com.au/userfiles/F ... xtract.pdf

My bolivian were teasing me last night both hovering over the male's rock, swimming around each other, and then nothing, can't be long now


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## Dutch Dude

Yeah your right,....it does indeed have a high PH.  I'm not sure why! Maybe they added something to the solution that gives the higher PH. Sorry I can't tell you why!

Are you sure there aren't eggs on the stone? They are small and should be amber colored and probably covered with a small layer of sand that they will remove a day before the eggs hatch. If not they are definitely practising on spawning.


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## leamos

It says on the bottle "NOTE: Aquamaster Blackwater extract is not harmful if overdosed" so i'd say they add buffers to prevent a sudden pH drop. So in other words it'll soften and stain the water but keep the ph neutral to slightly alkaline perfect for bolivians

As for eggs, no eggs yet. Females not quite as keen as the boy is. Having said that i did a big wc so tonight or tomorrow night it might happen. but for all i know they could have spawned and eaten without me even knowing


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## Dutch Dude

> It says on the bottle "NOTE: Aquamaster Blackwater extract is not harmful if overdosed" so I'd say they add buffers to prevent a sudden pH drop. So in other words it'll soften and stain the water but keep the ph neutral


 Well that came to my mind as well but I started to have doubts becouse this will take away some of the benefits of peat extract. The reason why most people use peat extract is to lower the PH and soften the water. If buffers have been added to the extract it no longer softens the water or let the PH drop. I also expect that some of the minerals and tannins will be neutralized by the buffer. This makes me wonder how much the stuff would add except for some coloration of the water. But I'm no scientist so don't take it for granted. I know the Tetra blackwater extract is real peat extract.

As for the spawn,.....it is quit normal that they eat the first spawns or mes up in fanning the eggs or protect the eggs. I have Bolivians (artificially raised) that needed abouth 20 spawns to get it right. I still have a male and a female of their offspring and they are tank raised by their parents. They were late with spawning but did the right thing in the first time. They managed to protect the fry for 3 weeks and after that the tetras and other fish snacked on them. I have to say that I didn't do anything to prevent it and I didn't add any food for the fry becouse I was not planing on raising more Bolivians. It could have been that they or some of their tank mates snacked on the eggs or that it was no more as a practising spawn. Be patient and I'm sure they will spawn when they are ready.


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## leamos

Just did a search, tetra brand has a pH of 6.3. Found this website with heaps of aquarium product material safety data sheets - http://whatsinproducts.com/ only thing is u have to do a search, clicking thru the pet menu gets u nowhere


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## Dutch Dude

OK,....PH of 6.3 still sounds higher as I expected. I do know if you want to lower the PH with peat extract you need to put in a smaler dose multiple times a week. Peat will lower the PH constantly and can be put in a media bag in the filter,.....if the filter does have a media reservoir  Thanks for the link and great you do so much investigation :thumb: I like it when people do that becouse it proves they try to accomplish the best for their animals. makes me


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## leamos

I emailed the company for an explaination, no reply yet.

As for my pair, the males clearly frustrated with the female, and now chases her around the tank instant of displaying and has taken the entire tank as his territory and the female is hiding up in the corner behind some plants...........now what?


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## Dutch Dude

> As for my pair, the males clearly frustrated with the female, and now chases her around the tank instant of displaying and has taken the entire tank as his territory and the female is hiding up in the corner behind some plants...........now what?


Well this is a problem!!! This exactly is the reason why I always suggest to keep Bolivians in small groups. The atention will be spread to all the Bolivians. It is not rare males can chase females to death when the male is ready to spawn and the female isn't. I never heard this happen in groups of 5 or more. I never dealt with your current issue so I can only give some advice based on common sense. Most important right now is to create lots of sight breaks so the male can't see the female all the time. The problem still will be there but the female does have more chance to escape the males atention.

Do you have a spare tank so you could separate the male for a couple of day's to a week? Is thee female still feeding or did she became pail with lots of black dots all over? What is the size of your tank? (sorry I forget) Can you get a hold on 2 or 3 more Bolivians?


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## leamos

Had to put the male in a holding cage for the time being doesn't matter what i put in the tank the male is actively looking for her, and attacking her, she been feeding the whole time, still nicely coloured (concidering). The tank a 15gal 2fter, so its to small for anymore bolivians unfortunatly, i'll let the female rest for a few days and make the male cool his heels. Once the female is rested up, ill do a tank rearrange, and try again


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## Dutch Dude

Leamos,...sounds like a good plan! The tank is indeed to small for more Bolivians. The problems you have right now occur more often with a single pair. Blair kept his pair for abouth 2 years or so and suddenly his male started to chase the female all the time and eventually killed her. Sometimes a pair does work out but if they don't you have quit a problem especially in a small tank. Do you keep us posted?


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## andrew__

100 pages =D>

That's a lot of Ram info! :thumb:

:fish:

Update, my rams seem to be doing well in my 65 gal with my sev, who's completely ignoring them. My male is more or less all healed up (not getting worse at least) and they seem to be enjoying their 5 feet of swimming space. No new spawning attempts from them but their last attempt was stressful, they can have some time off.

Anyway, looking forward to another 100 pages here opcorn:


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## D-007

Woohoo 100 pages. :dancing: Way to go BRC members :thumb:

Now all we need is a BRC T-Shirt :lol:


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## blairo1

Hi guys just to let you know I've been having issues with my inbox (er I let it get a bit full I think) so if you've PMd me and not heard back that's why, so please don't take offense, I recently had loads of old PMs pop up from a few of you here in the BRC so just know I wasn't choosing to ignore your questions .


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## erin1010

Have any of you ever kept a school of tiger barbs in with Bolivian Rams? I'm just looking for two more fish, not to have them spawn and my lfs says they have great difficulty sexing their Bolivians. They seemed to think my tank would have enough room for the fish to be separate from each other if they didn't get along that well, ie were both males. I have a 55 gallon tank at 77 degrees, wouldn't be putting the Rams in until end of April when the tank will have been running 4 months. Our local water is fairly soft and I have a tank with a sand substrate, a large piece of bogwood, and fake plants at each end of the tank, I am bad with live plants.


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## Dutch Dude

Blair,...good to see you back on the forum!!!! I did send you some PM's and indeed no responce,...now I know why :wink:

Andrew and D007,.....wow,...I didn't even notised we already are at page 100! This post is going on fore a very very long time now and good to see it is still active! The info on C-F for Bolivians is huge and I have seen links on several other boards that pointed Bolivian owners to the BRC. I want to thank Compressed very much becouse he took the initiative to launch the BRC :thumb: Lets go for page 200 

Erin,...welcome to the BRC. I have no experience on tiger barbs and only kept barbus schuberti in the past. Barbs can be "agresive" and also can nible on the fins of their tank mates. I don't know if thats the same for tiger barbs or not.

So your lfs isn't able to sex the Bolivians. There is a article on sexing Bolivians written by Blair. Here is the link to the site http://brc.moonfruit.com Go to articles and choose sexing guide. In a 55 it would be best to keep 5 to 7 Bolivians. They realy do best in groups. With a group that size you most likely end up with males and females. Sand substrate, driftwood and (fake) plants sound like a good set up to me.

Ruurd


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## Georgy

i have had my bolivians in my community tank for a while but i still cant get them to spawn.
I used to have 4 gourami's in with them but moved them to the new tank i recently got to give the bolivians more peaceful tank also to persuade them to spawn but thats another unsuccessful story!

The tankmates in with the 4 bolivians (2 male, 2 female) are:
4 neons, 3 Pentazona Barbs, 2 cory's, 1 firemouth, 1 clown plec, 1 common plec.

Pics:
These are the pair I would like to spawn, slightly larger and slightly older:

Female 1:









Male 1: 









Other pair:
Female 2: 









Male 2: 









So what am I doing wrong? Any suggestions?


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## leamos

geogry, your females still look young especially the smaller one

quick update: released the male and did a big water change with rainwater, so far staying on the females old side of the tank and is sheepishy displaying to her through the gaps in the plants. Females fins are nice and red. just keeping an eye on them, male might have learnt his lesson


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## Dutch Dude

Leamos,....hmmm,....adding soft rainwater may trigger spawning behaviour and right now I don't think the female is ready for it. So for now I suggest not to do things that can trigger spawning like adding peat / blackwater extract, very large wc's, change in water temperature or change in softens or PH. It would be wise to give them some more time and trigger spawning when their bond becomes normal again.

Georgy,...nice looking fish! They all look young to me. How old are they and what is their size? The second female is quit young and probably not old enough to spawn. Besides that she is stressed! See the pail colors and all those small black dots all over,...that stress. I expect your fish to be a little young. Not impossible to spawn but it might take a couple of more months. What are you feeding the fish?


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## Georgy

The first two were the breeding pair i wanted. They are both bout the same size, approx 2.5" long.

I wasnt expecting the other female to be ready as she is quite small indeed!
I have had them probably a good 6 months.
The 1st female has a large egg tube, her vent has always stuck down but it just seems to stick out more now.

They're normal food is pellet and bloodworm occasionally. But i gave them a few days of bloodworm a couple of weeks ago hoping to help development but nothing!


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## Dutch Dude

Georgy,.....I suggest to feed more blood worms (or live foods like artemis, daphnia or bloodworms) for a week or so (as extra food) and do a large (50%) water change after the week. This may trigger spawning. A enlarged egg tube can point at a new spawn in the make. Bolivians spawn from the age of 8 months but successfully spawns can be present at 1 year to 1 1/2 years of age. Once they start spawning they can go on for a long long time.


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## leamos

The pair were hanging out together last night flarring and shaking at each other so i think they are in the process of reestablishing their bond


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## Dutch Dude

Good to hear and glad the chasing around didn't occur! So hopefully things work out better this time. :thumb:


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## leamos

The female is in control this time, they keep to their own territories most of the day and then at night the male makes repeated missions into the females territory, does i bit of displaying, and quickly darts back to his side of the log. Spotted them doing a synchonized vertical display over the territory boundary, almost nose to nose, looked like a mirror image, wish i had the camera handy!


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## Hubbynz

I don't know if people remember my formerly super skinny and badly coloured Bolivains well here is an update....far more colourful and plump......I even found a big fat male (with 3 girlfriends opcorn) of really good stock. Unfortunately they have shown no interest in breeding over the past 2-3 months. 























































hope you likely I'm still **** at taking pics


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## Dutch Dude

Leamos,...good to hear things are OK for now and the female is in the leading position. Haha,...sounds like a funny sight the two fish doing a mirror act, haha!

Hubby,...are those the same fish??? Unbelievable! What a diference! You have done a realy awesome job :thumb: Keep up the good work Hub


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## D-007

They are looking really nice Hubbynz, well done. :thumb:


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## D-007

Question that I was asked yesterday but couldn't for the life of me give a proper answer, so assistance is needed please 

As far as I know, Bolivian Rams and German Blue Rams cannot be kept together in the same tank. But the question that I didn't have the answer to is what are the *specific reasons* for that being the case?

Thanks
D


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## Hubbynz

Two main reasons is that they require totally different temperatures (Bols around 24 degrees and Blue Rams around 30 degrees) and secondly due to being bigger in size Bolivains can easily dominate and intimidate Blue Rams.

They could live together possibly at around 28 degrees but it is not an ideal situation for either.


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## Dutch Dude

Hubby is right,.....they do need a diferent temperature. Bolivians are large and a hardier specie while GBR are small and delicate. Bolivians do best on neutral PH and GH while GBR need soft very clean water. To keep both species in one tank you have to make lots of compromises with a rather large chance the GBR will become ill and die. The GBR are defenately the delicate once.


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## erin1010

My tank is cycled now so I will be slowly adding fish. I currently have 9 danios, will be adding 6 or 7 panda corys this weekend and in another 3 weeks to a month 11 tiger barbs. I am still thinking 2 bolivian rams but my lfs says tank should probably be up at least 4 months 1st. A couple of questions. Do you guys have your tanks up 4 to 6 months before adding bolivians? Also, they think the barbs will keep to themselves in the school, which I hope they will. I have fake plants at both ends of my 55 gallon and one big piece of bogwood. There is some hiding but not a ton, you all look like you have lots of hiding for your bolivians. Do I need more hiding places? I can't seem to keep live plants, in or out of water but could get more fake plants I am not trying to have the rams breed but I do want them to be happy. Thanks for any thoughts


----------



## Dutch Dude

Erin, maybe you can add a pic of the aquascape so we can get an impression of the hiding places so we can give a proper advice if you should add more. Bolivians are hardy fish and imo 4 months is a long period. Al depends on the tanksize and bio-load, filtration and water changing schedule. Small fish like tetras won't ad much bioload but in a small tank Bolivians can be quit a diference. You can start with the barbs and add new species every 3 to 4 weeks so the bacteria can adjust to the higher bio-load. You need to measure nitrate and especially nitrite and ammonium frequently so you can judge if the tank is cycled or not.


----------



## erin1010

Our friend has our digital camera right now, I will get my husband to get some photos when it comes back. The tank cycled with the danios in there and some help from my oscar and pleco tank. Panda corys are going in this weekend and after 3 weeks to a month, tiger barbs, I will have them test at the lfs, they test for free on Wednesdays. I have a Whisper filter. How often do you do water changes on your Bolivian tanks? While the tank was cycling I did a 20% after one week, and then 10% every other day, and one other 20% change in there. I hope to be able to get down to doing a 20% to 30% once a week but will do more if that seems better for the fish. The danios seem to love the water change time and want to see what I'm doing.


----------



## D-007

*Hubbynz & Dutch Dude*, thank you both for passing on those reasons .... now I can go and answer the question more confidently.

Again, much appreciated,
D


----------



## Dutch Dude

D-007,...your welcome.

Erin,....so there is still some time to make changes to the aqua scape before the Bolivians will be introduced. I look forward to the pics of the tank.

I keep 8 Bolivians in a densely plated 50 gallon along with 8 green fire tetras, 9 Oto's and abouth 250 cherry shrimp. I put in double the amounth of food necessary for the fish becouse of the shrimp. I have a small Eheim Ecco canister of 160WPG and aditional it also pumps the water through a internal foam filter. I do only once a week a 50% water change and thats it. Bolivians are hardier as most people think and don't have much in common with their relatives Ramirezi. All depends on your tanksize, filtration and stock level if you will be able to do the 30% weekly changes.


----------



## dawsha

Hello! I am a new member as well as a Bolivian Ram enthusiast. I have read this entire thread (whew!) and am very excited to join such a great group. I have one pair of BRs and they have spawned for the first time a couple weeks ago. They are currently in a community tank so their survival rate is not great, however I will be moving the pair, along with any surviving fry very soon to an established 20 long, with Otocinclus and dwarf shrimp for tank mates. I am very optomistic about fry survival after they move to their own tank. 

My male is an F1 and they paired up after only 1 week in the tank, and she is quite the bully. I will attached a couple pics, even tho I am no photographer! LOL (I hope it works!)


----------



## dawsha

any hints on attaching pics? It did not work for me!!! :-?


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## ridley25

Use
http://www.photobucket.com
to upload your pictures, then copy the "image" line into this thread. (it will make sense once you're in photobucket.)


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## dawsha

Thanks for the tip!


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## Dutch Dude

Dawsha,....welcome to the BRC. Quit an achievement to read through 101 pages of BRC!!!

Your tank looks spotless clean and does have some good territorial markers as well. The fish are realy good looking and healthy! The red seems a bit pail but I think the strong lighting is the reason for that. Good to hear you have witnessed their first spawn and belive me,....many more to come!

Nice tank and very nice fish :thumb:


----------



## bolson

Okay, we want into the group. The we is me and my 9 year old son. After trying GBRs, unsuccessfully, we decided to move to the Bols and have loved every minute of it so far.

We currently have a 29 gallon tank with 4 Bols 2m/2f (I think), 2 Julii Cories and a BN Pleco. My son really wants to add about 7 Cardinal Tetras, but stock is low locally and I think we need to let the tank continue to mature.

The tank has been up for 4 weeks and was seeded with a log and filter from a 10 gallon tank that had been thoroughly cycled. So hopefully the tank has cycled. I only have the Tetra water test strips and it indicates a very slight level of Nitrates (<20), so I think we are good, but I want to be cautious about adding additional fish.

Right now we only have silk plants and an artificial piece of driftwood. I feel like such a poser on this sight without live plants. However, part of the fun in this adventure is the progression into the hobby. My son began with a sunken Bismark sub and bright orange starfish for aquarium decoration, and now he wants no part of those and is becoming interested in live plants, etc. I think eventually we will get there.

Once I figure out how to take decent and visible pics I would like to put our Bols up on the forum for some verification of sexes. We have a Canon SD500 camera, can anyone give a general ISO setting on manual function that captures the fish without being blurry? Watching the 4 interact is a lot of fun!


----------



## ridley25

bolson said:


> We have a Canon SD500 camera, can anyone give a general ISO setting on manual function that captures the fish without being blurry?


Try this: http://www.kwas.ca/Articles/Camera.pdf


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## dawsha

Dutch Dude said:


> Dawsha,....welcome to the BRC. Quit an achievement to read through 101 pages of BRC!!!
> 
> Your tank looks spotless clean and does have some good territorial markers as well. The fish are realy good looking and healthy! The red seems a bit pail but I think the strong lighting is the reason for that. Good to hear you have witnessed their first spawn and belive me,....many more to come!
> 
> Nice tank and very nice fish :thumb:


Thanks!  As I said the BRs will be moving onto a 20 long this weekend and I will then post a full tank shot of the new set up. My spawn is dwindling rapidly in the community tank but the new parents have proved to be very good parents indeed. 
Their red is really quite vibrant - my lighting and camera skills do not do them justice......


----------



## erin1010

Dawsha, what other fish are in your community tank? I am hoping to keep a couple of Bolivians in my 55 gallon community tank. I still need to get photos up of the tank, it has danios and panda corys in it right now. Your fish are beautiful.


----------



## dawsha

I have one Angel fish, 11 black neons and a BN pleco. The fry are disappearing rapidly! I will be moving the pair to their own tank this weekend....The black neons are very fast and I think they are getting the majority of the fry. Now that they are free swimming and harder for the pair to track, they are easy pickins! Danios are also very fast and corys are famous for egg stealing. Good luck to you if you wish to raise any fry!


----------



## D-007

*dawsha*, nice pair of Bolivian's you have there.

*bolson*, easiest live plants that I would recommend are Java Fern, Anubias and Watersprite.

The Java Fern you just tie to some decor, the Anubias can be done the same or you can plant it in the substrate covering only the spindly looking roots and the Watersprite you can plant at the back.

The first two are slow growers and are not very light demanding. The Watersprite will grow pretty easily as it too doesn't demand much light, plus it can also be used as a floating plant.

You can also try an Amazon Sword as a center piece.

Pop some root tabs in the substrate or use a product like Flourish Excel and you'll be good to go.

Hope that helps,
D


----------



## dawsha

Well, yesterday, my pair lost the few remaining fry they had (1st spawn- in a community tank); today the male starts acting like he is ready to go at it again; apparently she is not. She is pretty stressed and staying at the upper levels of the tank, which is totally out of character, he does not let her eat. How long do I wait to see if she will start to accept his advances and/or move one of them to a different tank? Do I wait until there is damage done?! I work full time so I am worried what will happen tomorrow while I am at work....please help! (My angel fish has even joined in the chase and keeping her stressed/trying to hide....


----------



## Philg

I am starting a bolivian ram tank so thanks for all the great input


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## edburress

dawsha... nice bolivians!


----------



## dawsha

edburress said:


> dawsha... nice bolivians!


Thanks! Well, I moved the female to my 20 long so she can relax for a bit. I had planned on moving both of them Saturday but this will give her a reprieve as well as some healthy dwarf shrimp to snack on! LOL


----------



## D-007

Philg said:


> I am starting a bolivian ram tank so thanks for all the great input


Welcome to the BRC *Phil*. Hope you'll be able to post some pictures when you get the chance. :thumb:


----------



## Hubbynz

I have had a male with three females in a 20 gallon for around 3 months now and I can't for the life of me get them to breed. They interact well together not overly aggressive just chase each other around a bit but with very little lip locking. None of them look remotely interesting in breeding or pairing up and its driving me crazy. They also spend alot of time swimming at the front of the tank and watching me instead of establishing territories.

Any ideas? I have tried water changes and blood worms.


----------



## dawsha

Wow!  4 in a 20?! You are braver than I am. LOL I am worrried about putting my established pair in a 20 long.....Do you have a pic of your set up? Maybe your male is not quite up to the task....seems weird that with 3 ladies to choose from he has not done so.


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## blairo1

How old are these fish Hubbynz, what sort of size?

IMO, they're either still sexually immature or there's too little free territory for a pair to risk the energy required to spawn. Try removing one of the females, unless of course they are still immature, in which case a little more patience will help.

Is the Keyhole still in there? If so, I'd say there's your answer .


----------



## Beaglegirl

DutchDude wanted to see some pics, and I don't know if he saw my other post. 
BUT, I think the pics belong here than the other post 



























I was told mine were all males, they lived about 2 years in a 29 gallon tank. I moved them to a 38 gallon tank and they are breeding. A LOT. One of my "he" fish must be a "she" fish! 
I really didn't want to breed them, but now they are having eggs and fry and I can't resist trying to rear up some.


----------



## Dutch Dude

Hey Beaglegirl,....STUNNING fish and you realy did an amazing job on them :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: Thanks for sharing the pics 

I spend les time on this board becouse I also join some other boards like Finarama and Simplydiscus.



> One of my "he" fish must be a "she" fish!


 :lol: Yeah I indeed was convinced you had all males. I guess it is just like with some humans,.....some look and act more like the opposite sex  Luckily I'm not making the gender mistake with humans  Any way,...I'm glad they turned out to become beautiful fish and considering how you received them I never expected them to become this beautiful. All credits to you and you did an amazing job! Nice your fish thank you with spawning and breeding.

Ruurd


----------



## Beaglegirl

Ruud
You weren't the only one who told me I had all males. I heard it from other boards and places too. Even though now, this is pretty much the only fishy board I'm on. 

Maybe the 29 gallon was just too small for 4 of them. (???)
I don't know WHY they like this tank better, I even moved all the decorations from the 29, so the decorations pretty much stayed the same.

Who knows! I would have been very happy with all males. My mbuna breed like rabbits and I'm constantly inundated with FRY. 
So, to tell you the truth, I didn't WANT any more.

BUT, since these guys are much more of a challenge to rear in a community tank where others are eating the eggs and fry, I think I'm up to at least trying to rear a few.

I can't turn down a challenge :wink:


----------



## bolson

Can I get some advice? I believe we have two males and two females in our 29 gallon tank. The males were in the tank for two weeks before the females were introduced. I probably would have done it the other way around but females were not available three weeks ago.

For the first week with all 4 in the tank my alpha female pretty much held here ground and claimed about 1/3 of the tank and a terracotta pot cave in the area. This occurred despite the fact that the females are smaller than the males.

Well, just yesterday I noticed that the alpha female has been kicked out of her territory and has been picked on by just about everybody. She now usually hangs out on a large leaf or amongst the leafs. She seems less colorful and holds her dorsal fin in a defensive position most of the time.

I am a little concerned about her health because she was the dominant female and even the more dominant ram in our tank. I am thinking of putting her in a cycled 10 gallon aquarium by herself for a little while to fatten her up and give her some relief.

Would this be advisable or should we just let them sort their order out a little more and let her toughen up? I just don't want her to become susceptible to disease.


----------



## bolson

Beaglegirl

Beautiful tank and beautiful fish. What kinda of plants are you using. I watched you video and I thought I saw some Seagarden plants by Aquarium Systems.


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## Dutch Dude

Beagle girl,....


> So, to tell you the truth, I didn't WANT any more.
> BUT, since these guys are much more of a challenge to rear in a community tank where others are eating the eggs and fry, I think I'm up to at least trying to rear a few.
> 
> I can't turn down a challenge


You wild find that parent raised Bolivians make much better parents as the artificially raised fish. You could keep some parent raised fry for future stock.

Bolson,....you have a fairly new community so the fish need to adjust a picking order. This can take some time. It helps to put in a lot of territorial markers and plants so each fish can claim it's own spot in the small tank. I won't suggest to take the fish out just becouse it looks a bit faded in coloration or becouse it found shelter among the plants. If a Bolivian is realy stressed they show small black dots all over. If your fish displays The black spots I suggest to keep a close eye on her especially around feeding time. When she doesn't feed and hides all the time you can give her some relive by putting her in a separate tank to gain in health. I advice to do this only for a week or so and there is a possibility the new environment makes her stressed even more. Before she is introduced again you need to change the aquascape so all fish need to establish a new teritorie. If you don't,... she probably will be picked and chased by the other 3 fish becouse they already settled and she is considered as intruder.

Maybe you can post a pic of your tank on here so we can give some advice abouth the aquascape. I also like to see a pic of the stressed fish. I suggest not to move the fish until we received some more info to give you a better advice.

Ruurd


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## FishingFrk

*Do bolivians always remain "paired up" even when not spawning?

*I had a pair of bolivians that had FINALLY spawned. I was so happy, but they died shortley after due to intestinal worms.  So I have been trying to get a pair out of a new set of rams I have. Im just wondering if they will still pair up even if they arent interested in spawning right away. Do all of your pairs stick by each others side 24/7?


----------



## bolson

Dutch Dude

Thanks for the adivce. We actually did change the aquascape after I made my initial post and it really seams to have helped. The female I was concerned about has taken up an area again and has regained some toughness. Not what she once was but she's certainly not the door mat she was the other day.

I'll try to get some pictures up soon, my photography skills suck on ice. So I need to experiment a little to get the best shot.


----------



## Crane

Hi, I am looking for advice. I've had a pair of Bolivians in a 20g high for about 3 months and they just had average bickering, lip locking and separate territories. Yesterday I noticed the male hanging out in the females territory and this morning I noticed they were sleeping in his. They've been hanging out all day together. Swimming same direction and very much pals. Also the female belly is larger. What if anything should I do to encourage mating and the survival of any spawn?

I'm so glad they're finally getting to it!
Tell me what to look for...


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## Dutch Dude

Fishingfrk,......young Bolivians males often try several females. They can steal a female from an other male and spawn with her or spawn with 2 females at the same time or withing several weeks. After some testing of the females broodcare the dominant male picks out the best female. Same for the remaining fish and this is why people often end up with one good pair that spawns often and raise their fry and a couple that isn't as active and turn out to be les skilled parents. Once they have spawned a couple of times and raised some fry the bond between male and female often will be for live. Exception is when the female isn't ready to spawn for a longer period and the male becomes frustrated with her. If this happen to a pair in a tank on their own it can lead to the male chasing the female to death. Thats why I always suggest to keep Bolivians in 40 gallon tanks or larger in a small group. The male will look for an other female or spread his atention on the other Bolivians as well. So the bond between male and female can be for life but can change if breeding becomes an issue.

They don't spend all the time side by side. A pair can split up and snif around the tank to look what is going on and then spend some time together. They do both defend their mutual territory and around breeding time they spend all the time close to each other. Often the male on the outer shell of the territory while the female defends the spawning site it selves.

Bolson,....good to hear the rescape worked out well. Make sure they all can find a proper territory by adding sight breaks, plants stones. I look forward to the pic.

Crane,....give them some time to build up their bond. Are they still young fish? Any way,...when Bolivians are happy you don't have to do anything to get them to spawn. Sometimes you can encourage them to feed some frozen or live bloodworms. A large water change also can triger a spawn. Give it some more time.


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## erin1010

Just curious. How big do your bolivians get when they are full grown?


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## erin1010

One more question. I will still try to get my husband to post pictures of our tank. Do you think it would be better to have 9 instead of 11 tiger barbs? They said I needed at least 7 and I picked 11 because I thought that might make them better schoolers but I want to make room for 2 bolivians also. The danios and pandas are small and not big waste producers. I will try to get a picture but I have fake plants at both ends and a two pieces of bogwood together in the middle. The plants at one end are thick enough so my shoal of 6 pandas I had to work to find this afternoon at lunch.


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## Beaglegirl

> Beautiful tank and beautiful fish. What kinda of plants are you using. I watched you video and I thought I saw some Seagarden plants by Aquarium Systems.


*Bolson*
I only use silk plants in my tanks. But, I don't remember the name brands. Sea Garden sounds familiar, but when I get them home I rip them out of the packaging so fast I rarely read it LOL
Thanks for the compliment on my tanks and fish, greatly appreciated 

Thanks *Dutch Dude*. I'm going to let the parents practice guarding for awhile. I might suck up a few fry with a turkey baster to try to rear up, but I'm going to give the parents a chance. They are prepping their favorite piece of slate tonight. I suspect eggs by morning 
here we go again


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## Dutch Dude

Erin,.....when Bolivians are proper raised and received all the care they need they can grow up to 3 1/2 inch. By the time they reached the maximum size the fish are 2 years or older. The smallest full grown female I keep is around 2 1/2 and the largest male is abouth 3 1/3 inch. All measurements are TL = total length from head to tail (without the filaments on the tail).

Tiger barbs can be mean fish but Bolivians can hold them selves well against fish 4 times their size so they will be fine. If your list is 11 tiger barbs, 6 pandaÂ´s, 9 danioÂ´s and 4 to 6 Bolivians you will be fine. You do need to make several suitable arias so each Bolivian can claim a territory. A pic would be helpful to get an impression of the curent aqua scape. I also suggest to do 2 water changes of 40% each week or just one large 60% water change and you will be fine with that stock list.


----------



## cdc

Hello all,
Read thru most of the posts..
I paid close attention to the article on 
sexing the 4 I have. It appears I have 4 females!
How crazy is that?
I guess my question is how well will they get along?
There is definitely 3 dominant ones. No actual harm
has occurred. The 3 have their territory and the lone one just hangs out
where she can. They live in a 90g with a gold sev., a very mellow blue 
dempsey, a young chocolate cichlid, 8 sunburst platties, 7 cories, 2 albino bristlenose
plecs and a clown plec.
I think I posted pics of the 90g in the photography section!


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## Dutch Dude

No worries, the 4 females will be fine. In a tank that size you could easely add 2 more Bolivians so you can add 2 males after all. I would be more worried abouth the sev but from what I have read and has been told they come with diferent characters and temperaments.

Feel free to post a pic of the tank over here so we can see the home of your Bolivians. You could also start a post on the SA cichlids section abouth your tank but thats up to you.


----------



## cdc

Dutchdude,
Good to know that they will get along.
I would be scared to try and get 2 males,
unless someone could guarantee they would 
be males.
I posted pics of my 90g in the photo section, 
take a look! I think its on the 2nd page. Its
titled 90g.
Oh, the Sev and blue dempsey are very mellow,
the Sev does a few laps to get the dempsey going,
but no harm. She never bothers the rams or platties.
Thanks~


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## Dutch Dude

Don't be scared to buy 2 more Bolivians. If they also turn out to be females you won't have problems. Thats the benefit of keeping Bolivians in groups!


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## cdc

If I ever come across a couple I may take the
plunge. I waited a long time to find these, I took 
all they had!


----------



## ted29

6 weeks old










pictures taken April 2008

I had 40 that survived and I sold 32 of them. I kept 8 of the best. I'll show more later


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## Dutch Dude

CDC,...I don't know the age of your fish but if they are still youngsters, don't be surprised if there is a male among them. At young age they are hard to sex.

Ted,.....congrats on your new fish. They look older as 6 weeks but I assume you bought them 6 weeks ago. I still see some stress spots and I wonder why. I also notice brown diatom "algea"on the substrate, in the moss and on the edges of the plants. This might indicate your tank is out of balance or an issue with waste levels.


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## jjmirks

i am getting blue rams today


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## Dutch Dude

jjmirks,....congrats! :thumb: But I hope you knew that they don't have much in common with Bolivians but only the Microgeophagus :wink:


----------



## cdc

True, I don`t really know how old they are. Got them 2-3 mons ago
at a chain pet store... only thing we have locally. The 2 independents
closed after "they" moved in.


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## D-007

I *finally *got some more Bolivians - (actually about the beginning of the month but I've been a bit under the weather for a while ) - to go with my current lonely female.

They're still in quarantine in a 20g long and I'm hoping to move them over to the 55g about mid March.

I got 2 Males and 2 young Females. The females I am working on fattening up with frozen blood worms and frozen spirulina brineshrimp; they are smaller than my current female as well as the males.

I'll have some pictures of them in the next couple of days to show off.


----------



## blairo1

Hey D!

At last bud, well I look forward to seeing your pics, how about a tank shot too. Are you planning on breeding and rearing fry?

Remember to check out Ed's article:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/b ... sa_pt1.php

Of course for those new BRC visitors the thread is a lot to go through, so to bring it back up for those who will find a basic care guide useful, here is the article Ruurd (DutchDude) and I wrote:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/m ... pinosa.php

As our older members know I also put this information into a website, on that site you can find the sexing article (see articles section). I must apologise that I have not yet updated or upgraded the site, it's really just been a case of too little free time and obviously hosting it is going to cost me money, which I'm happy to do, but can't afford right now - too many other projects first and foremost. Until then enjoy the site, I hope the info is of use and I urge you to read it, if you still have questions feel free to post here...

http://brc.moonfruit.com/

Nice to see there's still a steady influx of new BRC nuts, well done Ruurd for holding the fort! :thumb:


----------



## WNC_Dave

Well after a year of looking i finally found a store with more than one and i picked up 3 today. I will post up some pics once they settle in. I have them in a 56 tall with some neons and will be adding some angels later when i find some i like. I also have some sword plands and will be making it a very heavily planted tank.

Dave


----------



## D-007

Congrats on the acquisition *WNC_Dave* and good luck with them; especially with trying Angelfish with them. opcorn:

*blairo*, I'll be taking pics tomorrow of them so fingers crossed I'll get them uploaded before the night is out. Been doing a lot of running around this weekend including picking up a used 55g and used 120g (48x24x24) with stands.

As for a full tank shot, I be glad to put up a pic of the 20gL QT tank they're in  and then when they are all in the 55g with the solitary female (which I will have to remove 2 Biotodoma cupido's from and then rescape) I'll pop up a picture of that one.  

Wicked, first post on page 105 !!! :lol:


----------



## DUZBOMB

I just wanted to say thanks to all of you for your contribution on this thread and forum and in the library, i couldnt have done it without you. :wink: check out my first ram tank, i named it Bolivian Ram Flooded Rainforest Biotope, please take a look and comment. things are coming along nicely and the rams have colored up. i love these fish already :thumb:


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## Isis24

I bought 2 Bolivian Rams yesterday!!! Count me into the club! I was hoping for one male and one female, but I think they're both males :? I did check out blairo's guide, but I'll post pics to get a confirmation about their sex. One is 2 inches long, the other is slightly larger. How old are these? I don't know where they come from, but I'd like to hear expert opinion on whether or not these are disproportionate/deformed, etc. Are these good quality fish? Thanks, and enjoy!

Fish #1 (the smaller one)









Fish #1









Fish #2 (the larger one)









Fish #2









note: fish #2 does not like fish #1. If they're both males, one has to go back. Which would you keep?


----------



## WNC_Dave

The color on fish one is not as good as fish 2 but it could be from stress. Give them lots of hides and see if they get along better and color up more. but if i had to choose right now i say fish 2 bigger and better color....

Dave


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## DeadFishFloating

Hi *Isis24*,

Nice looking tank and fish. If you ever get the chance, think about changing your substrate to sand. After all, your rams are dwarf eartheaters, and love sifting sand, looking for food.


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## edburress

Hi Isis24,

Fish 1 is female, fish 2 also looks female but from the photo I don't know for sure. The pelvic fins look long for a female but that may just be because it is larger than the other.

To answer your questions: Their development looks fine and proportionate. You'll get a full idea of their quality when they breed and you can see the development of their fry.

At 2", they are 12-15 months old, females would probably be closer to 15 months.

Picking a fish to keep is difficult because fish #2 only looks more colorful than fish #1 because it is the dominant fish, if you removed fish #1, fish #2 would probably look more like fish #1. If anything, I would keep fish #1 because it is a healthier weight and female.

Ed


----------



## Isis24

Wow! I'm surprised that I have females! I really thought they were both male!!! I'll keep them both and get a male....then we'll see what happens  Once he picks a mate, I'll return the other.

I've named them Punky and Funky. If I get a male....I guess he'll have to be..... Hunky?

Thank you for your help WNC_Dave, DeadFishFloating, and edburess!

I'm really really excited about these rams. Their tank was ALMOST ready, but took a step back. I was resealing a 25G (first reseal ever!) but realized that I touched the seams with my oily fingers before applying the silicone :? That was after a whole lotta rubbing with alcohol. I've removed the "new" silicone, and will reseal again tomorrow. Hopefully they'll be in there next week!


----------



## ktluvsfish

I got my bolivian rams about three weeks ago and they are doing fabulous! I was really nervous about getting them because I tried to keep them in the past, but for some reason couldn't keep them alive (I think it was the supplier that I was getting them from).

I added my bolivian rams (1m, 2f) to my planted 75 gallon tank and within 3 days I had eggs! They aren't fertile and are getting eaten, but I was shocked that they adapted to the new tank so quickly. Now I have a 2nd batch of eggs against the side of the glass. These guys are busy! I don't have any pics yet, but I'll post em up as soon as I get some good ones.


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## D-007

Ok here are the picture of my Bolivian's in QT - sorry about the delay, been under the weather for a bit. Sorry about picture quality but I'm using a Kodak EasyShare C875 camera and don't really know what the best settings are for it. 

First picture is one of the males at the front and a female behind him.










Second picture is of the other male and female by my DIY filter.










Third picture is of the QT tank that they are in - with the males about to spar again. :roll:


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## erin1010

Blairo, Dutch Dude, and anyone else with input, this is my community tank that I want to add a couple of rams to. I was going to have you take a look and see if you thought there were good arias for them. Thanks.


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## edburress

*ktluvsfish*... Such a quick spawn is a good sign that they are very happy in the tank :thumb: It is interesting they spawn on the glass, I would love to see pictures!

*D-007*... Nice looking bolivians, that first male looks very nice... a good match for my female I think opcorn:

*erin1010*... I think that's a good start. I might look for a second piece of driftwood, a smaller piece to lay flat across the substrate and create a sight break. If you moved the existing piece back and to one side, placed the other piece beside it, and brought some of the smaller plants up into the foregound, it would creat more natural territory boundaries. Don't be afraid to get more asymmetrical :thumb:

Ed


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## blairo1

D, nice Bolivians mate, you did well there. Worth the wait in the end eh!

I love that male, keep us updated on how things get along with them. Are you going to breed a group and distribute? It seems like they're quite hard to get for you out there.

Erin I can only reiterate what Ed has already expressed, be brave, have you considered using easy and fast growing plants in place of the plastic ones, it really creates a more natural environment and visually (at least in my opinion) creates a very appealing look. Hygrophilia is incredibly easy and a fast grower that adds a lot of nice flowing greenery to a tank in very little time. Cabomba grows well although you won't get the full colour range of the leaves, both look great. Java ferns are pretty tolerant too and look good in place of slower growing amazon swords, whilst still providing a different shape to break up planted areas. :thumb:

I haven't really done any Bolivian pics in a while, here's one of my males, this guy has almost caught up to the "oldboy" in size, he's only a young'un but what a beast :lol:.










I don't know if this will be too large for your monitor but really it's just to show the iridescence in his black spot. I'm really liking this guy, so far his demeanour is quite mellow especially considering his size compared to the others his age.


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## edburress

Blair... Great male! Indeed he does look like a beast, how big is he? I like the look of the pebbles. I must admit I am a little envious of the picture quality too :lol:


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## D-007

*Ed:* Thanks, wish I could have got a better shot of the 2nd male as both look really good for her. Plus the females are coming along well too and once all my Rams are together in the 55g, that'll be the reward for me. Then I'll be able to work on improving things for my _B. cupido's_ :wink:

*blairo:* Yeah, definitely worth the wait. I'll most likely wait and see about the breeding - looking for a good guide on it really. Also, your male looks awesome, I really like the look of his pelvic fins.


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## edburress

D-007... here are some teaser pics I took yesterday.
















She hatched Aug 07, so she's around 18 months old. I can't wait to see how she gets along with your males, she doesn't have too much attitude but she is good sized for a female. She's spawned 7-8 times, the last two times getting the fry to free-swimming so hopefully they will be able to raise some fry.

Ed


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## okcomputer820

I just got three of them a week ago, all 1 inch or less. They are housed in a 40 gallon with a Severum who is mild mannered and they all get along just fine. The rams like to chase each other a lot, not sure if I have all males or females, but they've all claimed their territory fine. My set-up is very simple, 40 gallon tall, ph 6.3, 0 nitrate or ammonia, large marineland bio-filter, plenty of air pumping through, temp 79deg, 20% change once week. If anyone who is an expert on these Rams has any suggestions for me to give them the best suitable envrionment, please post and I'll greatly appreciate it! Thanks.

Ram 1:









Ram 2:









Ram 3:


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## ridley25

This is a tough one to pull off, but they sure do prefer sand to gravel.


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## okcomputer820

tough one to pull off cause of tank size or do the fish not look healthy? Thanks!


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## ridley25

Tough in that changing substrates is a pain.


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## edburress

Hi okcomputer820,

They are showing stress coloration (dark lines and splotches) but they are new so that isn't anything to worry about, they are probably still settling in. You'll need better pictures to sex them, but honestly they look a little too young to sex. Blair has a nice sexing guide on his website, give it a look...
http://BRC.moonfruit.com/#/sexingguide/4528902946

Like ridley25 said, changing over to sand substrate is a good idea, they are mini eartheaters and like to sift through the sand.

Ed


----------



## okcomputer820

Blair's website looks pretty full-proof in determining the sex, thanks for forwarding. I'll take another look at these guys now....


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## D-007

Ok *blairo*, you jinxed me (in a good way); :lol: The QT tank my 4 'youngsters' are in now has eggs  ; guess they weren't listening to me when I told them to wait until they get into the 55g :roll: :lol:

Btw *Ed*, those teaser pictures were very nice - she looks a lot like my solitary female that is in the 55g that will be getting redone. Man, I can't wait for the weather to improve so that she can come over.

Here are 3 pictures of the two that laid eggs:

*Picture 1 with no flash*










*Picture 2. Male on the left, female with her rear in the ??? *










*Picture 3 - I zoomed in a bit  *










I was surprised to see the 'caves' had been moved and that's what led to me taking a closer look. Also, the eggs were not there last night before lights out - so they got 'busy' during the night. I'm also quite surprised at how colored up the female has gotten in less than 24 hours. I didn't do anything special either btw.

Wonder if this happened because the tank is in our bedroom  :lol: The little pervs :lol: :lol:


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## edburress

D-007... Congrats on the spawn, it looks like a lot of eggs! Keep us updated on how they do :thumb:


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## D-007

Thanks *Ed*. As it happens, all the eggs were gone by this evening. I'm not surprised and in a way a bit relieved as I'd rather get all my Rams in the 55g first and then worry about breeding.

By the way, I just sent you a PM


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## Jake Levi

Really nice looking little guys,

its right on about the substrate, they like to move it around, your hiding places are good, I use little clay flower pots, I also use a lot of plants, I just have better luck in well planted tanks. I have always kept Rams and Severums together, when my Turquoise Severums pair off they will be in a 75 with some Rams, just a nice mix, along with a few corys and ancistrus.


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## ktluvsfish

Here are some pics of my rams and their eggs. When I took the pics, almost all of the eggs had been eaten, they were literally scattered everywhere though! Right now I have a male and two females, but I may get rid of a female and just keep one pair depending on how things work out.


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## edburress

Hi ktluvsfish,

Those are the eggs scattered all over the tank? I don't believe those are from you bolivians, they don't spawn in that manner. Those eggs look to be quite larger than bolivian ram eggs as well. I would assume those are from a pleco or _Corydoras_.


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## ktluvsfish

I am almost positive that they are from my Bolivians, but I thought that they looked quite large too. I don't have any cories in the tank, and my pleco doesn't have a mate. Maybe they are from my loaches??? The reason that I thought that they were my bolivians is because the eggs are all over the territory that a pair of my BR's has claimed. They appeared very soon after adding them to the tank. I have had my loaches for over a year and they have never spawned before, but it is a possibility.....


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## Isis24

ktluvsfish: Full tank shot? pretty please? 

Edit: just kidding...I saw the other thread  Very nice!


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## ktluvsfish

Thanks Isis


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## edburress

Hi ktluvsfish,

Usually bolivians lay eggs on smooth stones, and sometimes they choose to use horizontal driftwood, a broad, low leaf or dig a pit and use the bare glass; but in all these instances the eggs are a tight, concise clutch like is typical of substrate spawners and fish that tend the eggs. I know nothing about loaches, so would have no idea how they spawn.

I have an article about breeding the fishes:
http://cichlid-forum.com/articles/breed_micro_altispinosa_pt1.php

But nonetheless, your bolivians look very nice :thumb:

Ed


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## ktluvsfish

Thanks for the advice and the article Ed


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## Isis24

I'm very excited--I apparently had 2 female rams, so I went out and bought 2 (supposed) males, in hopes of getting a pair. I put them in their brand new 25G. That was 2 days ago. Yesterday, there was some odd behavior between the largest male (3") and smallest female (2"). There was some tail slapping, lip locking, body shaking, and the "pair" was chasing off the other two rams. Is this breeding behavior? The female's vent is HUGE today! She was also picking at a smooth stone I added just for them. Does this sound promising? I'll post pics tomorrow


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## Isis24

Ok, well... I knew it!!! I have eggs! I watched the whole thing...it was adorable. They spawned at about 7pm last night. Here are some pics:


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## Jake Levi

Congratulations ! Enjoy the continuing show.

Now starts the real fun.

Nice looking tank too.


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## ktluvsfish

OMG Isis, that is so cool! Congrats on the spawn. Now I know the eggs in my tank are deffinetly not from y bolivians, lol.


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## D-007

Congrats also Isis!!!


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## Isis24

Thank you  I'm super excited. ktluvsfish: it will be really interesting to see what hatches out of the eggs in your tank!!

This is the first time I've had Bolivians (and therefore the first time I've witnessed them spawn), and i just have to say that I'm extremely impressed with their skills so far. The parents are so attentive, and they haven't tried to eat any of the eggs (yet?). It has been 38 hours since the eggs were layed. It must be their first time, and after trying to count the eggs, I think there are about 120 or so. They've dug a depression right behind the rock that the eggs are on.

Now...two of the eggs are covered in fungus -- do I have to remove them, or can I just let them do their thing? Considering the time since they were layed, will any more eggs fungus at this point?


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## edburress

Isis... let them do their thing. Some of the eggs could still fungus but I'd just let them go through the process and gain experence. They will probably move the wigglers into the depression they constructed. They should hatch after 62-64 hours (at 76-78Âº)


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## Isis24

Thanks, edburress. Mama actually ended up eating those two fungused eggs. I'd say a few more probably fungused, but no more than 4. There are still over 100 eggs there, and I can't wait for them to hatch!!! As of right now, it has been 62 hours since they were all fertilized. It's going to be soon! I'm at home, so I'll be checking pretty often...

The parents have dug a depression....err.....HUGE cave under the driftwood (behind the rock) in the picture. It's a HUGE pit. I'm not sure what the norm is, but this looks pretty darn cool. I hope that they don't eat the fry  Once they get to the free swimming stage, I might take out about 25 fry or so to grow them out in a separate tank.

So... as far as "bad parenting skills" go, is that still something that can happen? It's their first spawn, and they've been model parents so far.


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## Isis24

They hatched!! It happened approx. 63 hours after fertilization. Right on target. At first I thought that the parents were eating the fry because they would pick them up and swim past the pit they had dug, but I finally realized that they were using a different pit--an ACTUAL pit, instead of the cave. They're just using the cave as a path the the smaller pit they dug. The pit is about 1.25 inches in diameter. I can't SEE any wigglers (or wrigglers?) but that's because that corner of the tank is densely planted. I hope they're in there!


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## blairo1

:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Nice to hear of your success Isis. It's always a joy when fish breed and especially when you get a chance to see it in action.

As for the bad parenting - I've always found Bolivians to be pretty efficient parents, several different females that I've spawned with my (admittedly singular) male have always shown strong parental instincts. You will likely lose the first couple of batches, either through predation or through the parents trying to recuperate some energy.

My theory behind why parents may eat their offspring is that they are clearly intelligent creatures and I do not find it at all hard to believe that they evaluate their offspring's chances of survival. If they see it as too large a risk then they will likely try to recuperate the energy they lost during egg production and spawning. I theorise this because it is almost as if they do it so that they may spawn again sooner, this time better prepared for the environment, but also because in my experience it was usually the female that ate the young.

You will probably find them shuffling their choice in pits around the first few times, they really are learning and testing it all out. So don't be surprised or saddened to lose a couple of batches, it's natural. Once they've really got into the swing of things they only get better and better. Some just aren't cut out to be parents and the more successful specimen will usually end up rejecting that individual.

They are pretty feisty little parents and aren't as dense as some other first time parents can be, but they have their moments. I have a couple of videos for you:

Bolivians gettin' fruity
http://s100.photobucket.com/albums/m15/ ... bc1514.flv

Bolivians vs Rotkeil sev
http://s100.photobucket.com/albums/m15/ ... 4a1502.flv

Bolivians vs finger 
http://s100.photobucket.com/albums/m15/ ... rAggro.flv

What you are looking for:









Hehe, they are awesome little fish and you're about to start seeing the best part of their little characters IMO.

:thumb:


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## Isis24

blairo1: thanks for the info, videos, and pic. I've seen the "Bolivians vs Rotkeil Sev" video on another thread. Hilarious! I really really like these fish (and the Rotkeil, too)!

I think that the wrigglers are still in there. While I was at work, the parents dug 2 more pits (why so many?) and i think they moved the wrigglers into one of them. Unfortunately (actually, quite fortunately for the fry), that pit is quite hidden away in a thicket of plants. I can't see anything  I hope these fry survive. The only other fish in the tank are 2 other bolivians (which I'll be returning to my LFS now that I have a pair), and 8 dwarf cories. Seems safe... I hope the parents won't be tempted to eat their babies...I'm keeping them well-fed 

I have a couple of questions... Ed's breeding article says that the fry become free-swimming in 7 days. Is that 7 days from hatching?? And when is it that I need to start feeding them...? Is it right when they become free swimming?

Lastly, I saw the cutest Keyhole babies in my LFS, and I really really want one! Can I have one with my Bolivian pair in a 25G?


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## edburress

Hi Isis,

The 7 days is from when they were laid, so ~4 days from hatching. You can start offering food as soon as they're free swimming. About the pits... they often transfer the wrigglers once or twice per day and often this means new pits are constructed for each transfer, and sometimes a pit is re-used.

Ed


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## pipluplover1

I got 3 1.5 inchers, 2 males and one female. ill post pics later. The male and female always hang out while the other male stays away, the male and female also have there on "cave" that the protect. at what size are the mature? 
Im going to try for wigglers. :fish:


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## Compressed

OMG..this is still active :lol: I have sold or torn down most of my tanks. The last tank torn down was my Discus tank..BUT I'm still running a 29g with Bolivians in it 8)


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## Isis24

.....and that's the important thing!!

My wrigglers are doing great, and according to what I've read, I should expect them to become free swimming tonight!

How long can you leave the fry with the parents? Is it possible to leave them there indefinitely (until they're big enough to sell)?? I know that it will be months, but the only tanks I have are 40G, 25(where they are now), and a 5G. The 40 is "full", and I can't imagine that the 5G will be adequate for long...

What happens if I leave the fry with the parents in the 25? Does that work? Do the parents eat the fry??

Thanks


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## Dutch Dude

I should need to do a proper read up on the BRC becouse I didn't post here for a while so I don't know the history. If the Bolivians are in a 25 on their own you can leave the fry in there. They might eat the fry but they will spawn again. Parent raised Bolivians turn out to become skilled and good parents and I would prefer those over artificially raised fish. You can keep the fry with the parents for at least 2 months. By then the bioload of the tank becomes an issue and it is better to keep them in a larger tank or split up the group. Keep the nitrates below 15 mg/liter all the time and do lots of feeds and start with at least 3 feeds of bbs a day. If you plan on dust food to raise them I suggest at least 7 small feeds of Hikari First Bites. Good luck :thumb:


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## Isis24

Thank you 

the tank inhabitants include the 2 Bolivians, 1 keyhole baby (1"), and 8 dwarf cories.

When the fry become free-swimming, I MAY take out 10 or so and put them in the 5 gallon. This my first time seeing a bolivian spawn, and I really want some babies!! At least if the parents eat the fry, I'll still have a few to raise and enjoy.

I will be raising them on Hikari First Bites. I'll do many feedings per day.

If the bioload becomes a problem, my severum will be waiting....


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## Newbreed

What do u feed and how should u feed a group of bolivian ram's every time i drop flake food in the tank they miss it and only grab a few of the pieces i drop in. but when i drop in a bottom feeder pellet they go after that like its doomsday rations and they try to take and stake claim on that pellet and i get lots of fighting going on. What should i do?


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## Isis24

I usually add flake food/crushed pellets slowly. I don't dump them in all at once. In your case, if you do that, the flake might get stuck under the gravel, so your Bolivians won't be able to find it. When you have sand, the food will sink and sit right on top of the sand. Then the Bolivians can easily sift for extra food.

Update on my Bolivian fry: They're free swimming! Adorable--I can actually see them now! They only get about an inch off the ground, but still very cute. I've fed them 3 times today so far (it's currently 2pm). They're such good parents.

My dwarf cories hang out around the fry a LOT, and the parents constantly chase them off. Are the dwarf cories big enough to actually eat the fry, or are they just there to get to the Hikari First Bites??


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## Isis24

Sorry to be a pain.... but I need help!

I'm currently feeding my Bolivian fry Hikari First Bites 7-8 times per day since yesterday, which is when they became free swimming. The thing is....I don't see them eat!! They completely ignore the food. I see less fry today than yesterday, but I don't know if that's because of starvation, or because "somebody" ate them.

What do I do!?

Also...very curious to know about growth. How big are they supposed to be now, and how much will they grow per week for the next 4 weeks?


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## edburress

I posted this in another thread but wanted to add it here so it could be archived in the BRC for others to access

Development time-line:

egg or "birth" :lol: 









3 weeks, 3/8"









5 weeks, 1/2"









8 weeks, 5/8"









15 weeks, 3/4"









5 months, 1 1/8"









7 months, 1 1/4"









8 months, 1 1/2"









9 months, 1 5/8"









9 months (w/ first spawn)









10 months (w/ second spawn), 1 3/4"









11 months, 1 7/8"









15 months, 2 1/4"









18 months, 2 1/2"









19 months, 2 3/4"


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## Hubbynz

great idea Ed and a great quality Bolivain


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## Newbreed

my rams look anywhere from 5 months to 1 year hmmmm


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## pipluplover1

mine look 6 months..... :?


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## Isis24

I thought somebody may be interested in an update of my Bolivian fry (I myself never get tired of seeing fry or adult bolivian pics  ).

Here's a pic from a little over a week ago:










I moved 7 fry to a 5 gallon when dad ate most of his babies (unless it was my twig catfish who ate them.... I never considered that, because he's really dumb, and the bolivian parents never chased him away). There are 6 left (I literally lost one -- I have no idea where it went). Here are a couple of pictures I took yesterday (There's white fuzz on my driftwood, and I have no idea what it is):


















They are currently 2 1/2 weeks old.

How long can I keep the 6 fry in the 5 gallon? There's 1 cherry shrimp in there with them. I don't have any other "empty" tanks, but I do have the 25G that their parents are in.

Hope you enjoy the blurry pics!


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## edburress

Hey Isis,

I enjoyed the pictures, it looks like they are doing a good job with their young. The 5g will be fine for a while. I used a 5.5g initially with 40+ fry and they stayed in there for 4 weeks I think, before I moved them onto 10, 20 and 30g tanks as they grew and developed. The small initial tank makes it easy to do water changes and easy to feed the fry, so I wouldn't worry about the small size for a while.

Ed


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## Hubbynz

A few pics of my Male Bolivain


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## pipluplover1

WOW! nice pics up there people! opcorn:


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## pipluplover1

anyone have any left? :fish:


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## blairo1

I always have some fairly recent pics but I usually refrain from posting as they're more for my records than anything else, so you have to excuse the poor quality as they're "snaps" rather than the pictures I would normally prefer to share, but as you asked:

The beast (furry stuff is dying algae, just reintroduced some old wood to the tank )









Ed I realised I didn't get back to you about the "beast" male, he really is huge compared to his tankmates of similar age, although the difference is starting to become less obvious, fortunately he's not too much of a bully and it looks like the male pictured next will be the one to watch - although smaller he's certainly capable of standing his ground. The "beast" already has the TL of a fully grown "average" adult, it is only his overall bulk that is slightly less than that of my old male.

The smaller but suave male (he knows how to work his way with ladies):


















As they're in the same tank an obligatory Festivum update (seeing some pre-spawning from them too at the moment, pretty certain I have 1 male and 2 females so looking good as two have paired off but are very mellow towards the third).









:thumb:


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## pipluplover1

nice!


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## Newbreed

Update, Final Stocking:

6 Bolivian rams

2 Bushy nose pleco's

8 espei rasbora's

12 rummy nose tetra's

1 mystery snail/ blue

And possibly 4 cory dory catfishies. a random assortment of them no clue what i have

Will this affect my chances of getting a spawning pair of rams, my tank is just starting to mature.


----------



## Dizzcat

How many fry to live past 2 weeks in the norm?

Hello everyone  I am not new to the forum, just have never posted on the BRC before.

I have a pair of them, have had them 2 years. My babies have spawned many times in the past. The very first time they did I got 15 to grow out to the "teen" size. After that we had many things go wrong. I had regular aquarium rock substrate (pea sized) and one spawn they lost all the wigglers in the rock because they couldn't dig them out. The first spawn made it because they used a natural indent in a lava rock as a pit. I switched to a tiny rock after that. They then spawned 3 more times with the mom eating the wigglers as they hatched! So I never knew if the smaller store made a difference. When I set up my African Mbuna tank I had a ton of play sand left over and loved the look so much I redid the Ram tank with that. Wow did they love that :thumb: My male loved it so much I had to put him on the other side of a divider for a month because he dug huge pits and started attacking everything! He had never done that before!

So, a couple days before Christmas I happen to notice my female over a big batch of wigglers. I had been so preoccupied with the holidays I didn't take the time to really watch the tank once or twice a day like I usually do. She dug a nice pit right in front against the glass. So, I did a frantic water change and as I was she made it so easy to put in my divider because she held them all in her mouth till I was done! After I got one side done she swam over and I put in the divider (she acts like she knows when I do!) and she dug a pit with her nose and spit them in it! I was so proud of her! That batch was about 150 wigglers. After they became free swimming they were getting past the divider. I cover mine with a fine netting because as we all know they swim right thru the holes! These little ones were going past were its against the side. So, I took everyone else out of the tank and put them in another for the time being. Papa stayed in on the other side. The female developed issues with him after the second spawn and would never let him near after they spawned. He patrolled the other side and collected any strays and kept them under him. Problem was, the water movement was too much and they slowly starved to death  They could not get enough to eat before the current took it away. So, I put my breeders net in and scooped up as many as I could. All but one died within a couple days. Except one big strong one.

Next spawn was January. This time I put the divider up on the other side of the tank with the papa. He turned out to be the best parent! Mom patrolled the other side, keeping all other fish away. After a week I scooped up a bunch and moved them to a small 2.5 gallon tank to grow some. As time went on these started to die off. The ones with dad were too, but he had a group that was getting strong. There was no water movement on his side, just what came thru the divider. As I squirted in the BBS it stayed in a cloud instead of floating way. I ended up putting the ones I took away back with him, because his looked stronger. I got 9 that time to live past a month.

Next batch was in Feb. They spawned in the middle of the tank. This time she let him help. I just left them alone because I didn't have anymore room for fry. All fry were gone after 2 days of free swimming. The other fish snagged them.

OK, my questions. :-? The largest group I have gotten past 3 weeks is 15. How many in a clutch of 200 is normal to live past that time? I have noticed the ones who live to 3 weeks will live on. I feed them frozen BBS. Would I have a higher survival rate if I did the live BBS? My biggest batch to live I had put a bunch in a 5 gallon the day after they became free swimming. I tried a breeders net, and an angel sucked most thru the netting. I have since made a cover for it with plastic canvas. The angel could not get to them then! I also raise the temp to 80 degrees F because I read it helps survival rate.

Since their last spawn I have moved them to a 30 gallon tank. I now have a 10 gallon I use for mouth brooders and their fry, but I would use that for Ram fry next time. Any thoughts on its setup? It has a 1/2" layer of sand and a couple fake plants and/or rocks (right now a pot and rocks because it has a holding M. Greshakei female in there). A small HOB filter and nice heater. I keep this tank at 80 Degrees for the fry. It has been up and running for almost 2 years now.

What am I doing wrong? Would live food make a difference? I swear you say boo and half of them die on the spot! 

I started reading past posts on this thread, but after 20 pages decided it was too much to wade thru another 90 :lol:

So here are my kids

The Male. He is big at almost 4" and a wonderful dad! 









The mama. She is a feisty one! She was attacking him right after a spawn in this pic:









A spawn, mom in the back, pops in front.









Little Free swimmers









This is the only one to make it from the Dec Spawn, He's 1 1/2" Next to him is one from my Jan spawn. See how much smaller they are compared to him? They are 1/2-3/4". They are only 1 month apart! Why? 









And finally, a pic of my cuties. All fry now live with the folks in the big tank. So I have 2 adults, 1 "teen" and 7 "Kids". Its really fun to watch all the interaction! :thumb: 









Thanks for reading this far  I have so many people that want my Bolivian Ram fry, but have such bad luck with raising many to sell-able size. Any idea how I can get them to grow faster too? Any and all suggestions and ideas are welcome! 
Thanks :thumb:


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## pipluplover1

well, I have never had the breed (yet.....) in other words, I got nothing, but nice rams dizzcat! and welcome to BRC! :thumb:


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## Dewdrop

Wish I could help Dizzcat but I'm brand new to rams. 
Four days ago I freed up a 10g. fry tank all but a tiny bn pleco and couldn't stand it looking so empty soooo I added 5 little panda cories from Walmart. One died the first day,the next morning another was dead. Went back to a different Walmart to replace them and they didn't have the panda cories so I ended up getting 6 neons and the only 3 tiny what appear to be Bolivian rams they had. I'm sure everyone is cringing at me having 3 panda cories, 3 Bolivian rams, 6 neons, and a tiny bn pleco in a 10g. tank but they are all very small right now and I have a 29g. tank to move them to eventually. Right now they sure look cute in there though, even though the rams aren't to colorful yet being so tiny. I'm really enjoying these tiny fish. My other larger tanks have malawi cichlids and I'm new to this world of tiny fish. About 3 weeks ago I got some guppies, ghost shrimp and bumblebee gobies. I'm now finding good things come in small packages :thumb:


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## pipluplover1

ok, lets revive this thread, for the Bolivains! Ok, post your pics of ALL your rams! "GO BOLIVIANS!"
:thumb:


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## illy-d

quick question for the BRC experts... In a tank with a foot print of 12" x 36" what is an ideal number of Bolivians to keep?


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## D-007

Not a BRC expert but I think you can keep 3 pairs in there but make sure there is plenty of driftwood and plants to avoid too many territorial squabbles.


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## Dutch Dude

Hi there,

I rarely visit the BRC so I have know idea what is going on here at the moment but I have seen some questions not getting answered,....so just a quick responce.

Dizzcat,....very nice Bolivians! They spawn regularly and thats a good thing. I'm convinced the problem is in the food. I prefer live BBS but also have fed Hikari First Bites. If you hatch bbs the old fashioned way you need to do AT LEAST 3 feeds a day. With the first bites abouth 6 to 7 small feeds. It is best to first soak the first bites in some tankwater for a couple of minutes and then put it in the group of fry with a pipette or turkey baster. You can feed the fish when they become free swimming. With parent raised fish you will have a smaller number of survivors but they will be of good qualety.

Illy-d,.....minimum number is 5 and maximum number is 7 if you want to play things save. So I would go for 6 witch is a nice group. Make sure you create lots of sight breaks (driftwood and plants) and here we go again,....lots of territorial markers :wink: You need to create at least 4 potential spawning sites.


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## ridley25

Glad you're still around, Dutch Dude:

This morning I noticed wigglers in my tank that can't be more than a day or two old. Besides the mated pair (I didn't know they were mated until this morning) I have two additional males, 11 rummynose tetras, 3 cories and a BN pleco in my 29.
Will all the potential predators should I even bother trying to feed the fry? The parents have been doing a decent job protecting them. Should I help them out by feeding some Hikari First Bites?

kevin


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## ridley25

Also...since I now know I have a pair, should I find new homes for the other males? (They've coexisted peacefully since April 2008 in this tank.)


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## illy-d

Dutch Dude said:


> Illy-d,.....minimum number is 5 and maximum number is 7 if you want to play things save. So I would go for 6 witch is a nice group. Make sure you create lots of sight breaks (driftwood and plants) and here we go again,....lots of territorial markers :wink: You need to create at least 4 potential spawning sites.


Sweet info - Thanks Dutch Dude!

I just picked up 6 young Bolivians - they are floating as I type this and in 20 minutes or so I will probably start them on a drip... From what I can tell I Have 2 males for sure... I'll probably have a better idea of what I have when they settle in and colour up.

Tank decor will remain how it is for two days or so and this weekend I will do a major re-scape. I have plenty of wood and java fern so I think I will add some more rock work. I have an idea of what I would like to accomplish scape wise - I just need to get me the right size riverrocks!


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## Dutch Dude

Keven,....yeah I'm still around only not as often as before and Ã


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## ridley25

Thanks for the quick response, Ruurd. The males will stay and I'm off to buy some "First Bites." The excitement of being a first time father precludes me from not trying to raise the fry!

kevin


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## illy-d

Thanks Ruurd - this will be my second go round with Bolivians... The first 4 were highly entertaining but died after about 4 years... By then I had shifted my focus to larger cichlids and didn't think it would be appropriate to mix them with the dwarves (the Rotkiel was okay)...

I'm finally settled into a place where I will be for a few years and I have my little tank set up in my office - I've sort of neglected it for about a year (still did my water changes) as it has housed primarily tetras... I'm excited to have Bolivians in my work place again!

My new scape probably won't be as aesthetically pleasing as my old layout as I am going to try and focus more on function. I'll put more emphasis on 'hard-scape' like rock & wood and perhaps add some plants later - most of my driftwood is 'planted' with java fern so there will be plenty of greenery from the get go...

I'll try to get some pics up next week. From the glimpses I have seen of these guys so far (they have only been in the tank a couple hours and are still 'hiding') I think I have at least 3 males and maybe 2 females - I don't know if I am seeing some fish twice and others not at all... There are 6 of them - maybe i'll be lucky with my ratios and be 3:3...


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## briansbelle

i LOVE this thread. i am looking forward to getting my bolivians soon, and i want 2 tanks of them 

i have a few questions though:

1. can i keep a pair in a 28 gallon bowfront-24" long along with 10 furcata rainbows and a BN pleco?

2. can i keep a pair in a 20 gallon long with 6 praecox rainbows and a bn pleco?

i really like these little guys and cant wait to get my tanks setup for them :wink:

i have alot of driftwood, that is soaking outside right now, gonna let it soak till the end of june/middle of july. and then boil/bake it before i put it in the tank. and will be running peat in my filters. i have a planted tank right now that i have peat in so this wont be too different..LOL!

i dont plan on getting my rams till the ACA this summer.

also i am not going to do alot of plants in the tank, mostly drifwood and coconut shells, but i will have a few low light plants in there, anubias and java fern mostly and a few moss balls.

thanks for any help...this will be my first try with bolivians and i want to make sure i do everything right.. LOL

:wink:


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## briansbelle

ok so i have managed to get a bigger bowfront. i am getting a 46 gallon bowfront. 36" long.

how many rams can i keep in there with about 10-12 dwarf rainbows and 6 cories?

thanks for the help all, i am stoked to get these guys :dancing:


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## klumsyninja

*briansbelle*

I'd try 6


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## briansbelle

ok thanks so much!!

i am so happy about getting the bigger tank, now i can keep more of these little cuties.


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## Dutch Dude

Kevin,..your welcome. Pleas keep us up-dated on your experiences with the future new batch.

Hi Illy,.....Yeah I remember. Good to hear you can set up a Bolivian tank at work. For some people it works relaxing. Most Bolivians have a life span of 4 to 5 years (7 years is posible dough). I hope you will enjoy the fish just as much as your previous batch. We defenately like to see some pics of the fish and tank :thumb:

Brainsbella. I suggest 5 Bolivians for the 46 gallon bow front, 10-12 of the dwarf rainbows but no corydoras. I expect it will be to crowded on the bottom to keep and the corys and the Bolivians along with your aquascaping plans. For the 20 gallon,.....a pair of Bolivians is posible but I don't recommend it. This tank will be a nice size for apistogramma in stead or,.....the rainbows and the corydoras. Be aware that small tanks like that are easely overstocked.


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## Isis24

Here are my two-month old Bolivians! These are from a spawn on March 7th. There are 4 total, and two are much bigger than the others. The two bigger ones are an inch long, and the two smaller ones are 7/8 of an inch. I hope you enjoy the (horrible) pics!


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## briansbelle

thanks for the help DD.

i was going to do rams in the 20 gallon long, until upgraded to the bigger bowfront, just so i could have more rams  but now since i am getting the 46 gallon instead of setting up my 28 gallon i dont plan on adding any rams to the 20 gallon long :wink:

can i keep 1 bushy nose pleco and a clown pleco in the 46 gallon with the rams instead of the cories?

as for the 20 gallon long,right now i have cobue fry and demasoni fry growing out in it, along with some guppies which i will be giving away soon.

so i think i am just gonna leave the 20 long as a growout tank until i can come across either dario dario, badis badis or maybe annacara anomala. something small for the tank.

thanks so much for the help i appreciate it.


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## Dutch Dude

Isis24,...thanks for sharing :thumb: Those youngsters seem to defelop just fine. They will grow quit fast for the first 3 months and slow down in growth more and more.

Briansbelle,....I think the BN is OK and a good tankmate. Whiptail catfish are also a possibility. They like the lower temp and are realy oddballs. Oto's are also good tankmates but a bit more delicate especially in the first 3 months. I'm not a fan of clown Botia. They can be bullies sometimes. But I think your tankmates will handle that.

Nanacara anomela are nice fish but for their size quit some temperament. Not sure if a 20 long is large enough for them and I recommend to do some research on that. Like mentioned some easy apistogramma species would also do well in a tank that size, and especially A. cacatuoides and A. Borellii. There are still plenty possibilities with a 20 long and I think it is a whise decision not to put a pair of Bolivians in it.

Ruurd


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## briansbelle

thanks DD,
actually the clown is a pleco. its called a clown pleco, i am not a fan of clown loaches either... 

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/profiles/profile80.html

i had apistogrammas before i got my blue rams, had 4 apistos and all but 1 died on me so i am not wanting to do them again.. :wink:

might do a pair or so of badis badis, or dario dario..not sure yet 

thanks


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## illy-d

Just be aware that adult BN Plecos can & will eat Bolivian Ram eggs. I witnessed this happen a few years ago when my Bolivians spawned for the 2nd time (the first time they ate the eggs). 
This was the culprit - a 3.5" BN pleco of some sort;









These were the parents;

















The theft occured not too long after these pics were taken - I had a feeling that some of my cory's may try to be thieves in the night so I set-up a desk lamp beside the tank which I left on after the tank lights went out - hoping that would discourage any theives and allow the parents to protect their clutch... Well, no sooner did I put the camera away and turn off the tank lights and the BN pleco came out of hiding and went straight for the eggs... The parents tried to shoo him/her away but it was to no avail... So, if you're planning on spawning your Bolivians and want them to have a chance at raising the fry I would reccomend No ADULT pleco's...

Here is a pic of the 2 BN plecos I have in there at the moment - I don't think these guys are big enough to bully my new Rams... Maybe I'll get another spawn and we'll see


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## briansbelle

thanks for the heads up.

the bushynose plecos i have are small like yours are. i was just thinking of putting them in there to grow out till they are big enough to fend off my alpha male flavus-he's mean. he has already killed one of the little plecos. 
right now i have 3 plecos in my 30 gallon planted tank which is way too many.
that is why i wanted to put one in the ram tank... 

also what would be a good bottom cleaner/algae eater for the tank, i always like to have a clean-up crew on hand... 

:fish: :fish: :fish:


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## illy-d

It's been my experience that BN plecos will eat left over food - I see my little guys eating NLS pellets all the time (they love them).

I don't think I have enough real estate in my little tank to keep any Corydoras this time around so I am going to rely on the baby BN plecos, the Rams themselves, and cut back on their portions... I find it very easy to over feed with NLS as a little seems to go a long way...

I have a 75g tank with one bigger BN pleco and when these guys get bigger I will move one of them there...

Re: your clown pleco... when I first started I had 2 of these guys (i think they were clowns) in a 10g tank I inherited from my father-in-law... Believe it or not one of them killed the other - apparantly they can be territorial... have plenty of pieces of wood and hiding places... This is what I had;








I think they were clowns...


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## briansbelle

looks like a clown to me  
i only have one clown pleco.

so you think i will be ok as far as putting one BN in the tank till he is a little bigger?

after he becomes too big what should i get as a clean-up crew? i like snails so maybe a few apple or mystery snails would help.

i also like flying foxes/SAE-siamese algae eaters.

thanks a bunch!


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## illy-d

A 46g bow is def big enough to house an adult BN pleco or two - depending on your light cycle you may have to feed veggies, sinking pellets/wafers in order to supplement their diet... My 75g has enough algae to keep an army of BN pleco's happy :lol:

The pleco's will ignore your Rams and for the most part make excellent tank mates - unless of course you want your rams to spawn at which point you may have an issue... Interestingly I kept the very same pleco in a tank with my breeding convicts and it didn't get to eat any eggs in tha tank! :lol: If you have a mature & experienced pair of Bolivians they may be able to defend their clutch from your plecos without incident - it just didn't happen that way for me... I do know of other people who have kept the two species (Bolivians & BN PLeco's) in the same tank for years without incident - and they get spawns every few weeks like clock work...

I'd just play it by ear... For me if I was to have my new Rams spawn in the next couple months or so I don't think I would do anything or interfere in anyway as I am not prepared to raise a batch of fry at this time... I was dissapointed when it happened before and the eggs got eaten because I had 2 tanks set-up dedicated to raising fry from various species - I was hoping to raise up some Rams!...


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## klumsyninja

From experience with planted tanks, BN's rip em up.. they do they gotta do to go where they want and that usually involves rippin up all your plants.. Otto's are a WAY better choice and you can pack em in there too as they're tiny and have a a very small bio load.. EXTREMELY cute and efficient at keeping your tank tidy. I always have em in my planteds. Lot's of fun to watch em buzz around the tank too.


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## D-007

Ditto on the Oto's :thumb: Beautiful little fish and a great compliment to almost any tank.


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## klumsyninja

klumsyninja said:


> they do they gotta do to go where they want and that usually involves rippin up all your plants..


Should read " they do WHAT they gotta do, to go where they want....

Sometimes I forget to type entire words.. lol

But ya, Ottos for the win!


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## Dutch Dude

I have no problems at all with BN ripping up plants. BN do need a cave like shelter such as driftwood, coconut shell, PVC tubing or small flower pot. If not provided they dig out their own cave and in your case probably between the roots of your plants (roots supporting the cave structure). Oto's are wonderful fish I admit but,...they are more delicate. If you like to end up with say 5 then I suggest to buy at least 8 of them.


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## briansbelle

i am scared of ottos b/c they are so delicate. the tank isnt even setup yet, and i hear they like well established tanks.

i do have an SAE in my planted tank and he does a good job- kinda  he isnt as good as the bushynose.

i dont plan on having many plants in the bolivian tank, mostly driftwood,and coconut shells with some smooth pebbles for breeding.

only plants i plan on having are anubias and java fern, and maybe some java moss. and also a couple fake tiger lotus(silk). the bushynose plecos i have in my planted tank dont tear up the anubias at all. i am guessing b/c the leaves are so tough, and the java fern is a big bunch of it, so if they do chew up a little more than likely i wont really be able to tell b/c its a bush of java.

and i am going to attach the java moss to the driftwood and there is alot of java moss too...like a basketball sized clump...that i will be getting.

the only plants my bushynose eat in my planted tank is the ozelot sword i have, but the leaves on it arent as hardy as anubias.

thanks for the help!!


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## dwarfpike

I've never had problems losing otto's even in new tanks, but I do treat them like I do any sensitive fish (rummynose, cardinals) and make sure they are at the pet store for at least 2-3 weeks before I buy them and drip acclimate them. As callous as it sounds, I let the pet store handle the die off before buying.

As for bristlenose, mine tore through both stem plants I've tried (rotala and hornwort). And it wasn't digging them up, it was eating them! But it left the anubias/swordplants/crypts alone. Still, I prefer otto's with dwarf cichlids ... but that's mostly from watching my bn chase pike cichlids and convict pairs around a 3ft tank. :lol: Well that and soooo much less waste!


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## klumsyninja

I've never lost any Otto's establishing them in my tanks either. I drip acclimatized mine too and they are all doing fine. I got mine at Walmart too of all places! (_cheap_)

I had floating plants all the time and I'd watch the pleco tear up the place as he forced his way around. My tank however was VERY densely planted.. So there wasn't a lot of floor space for him to cruise around without blazing a trail.

I guess it always depends on your tank and your fish.. But that's my experience anyways


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## briansbelle

thanks guys!

i might get a few ottos and try them out. as for my planted tank, it isnt heavily planted but not lite either, there is still plenty of open space to swim around without leaving a path of destruction :lol:

and the bolivian tank is not going to be as planted as the other tank, so i will give them a try and if they get too much of a hassle i will put the BN in my mbuna tank, i have 8 tanks to choose from so finding them another tank to call home shouldn't be a problem :wink:

thanks a bunch guys i really appreciate the input, i like to research ALOT! :wink: before i just throw a bunch of fish toghether...

i have heard ottos have to have algae to eat so i will let the tank establish itself, get some algae goin(which shouldnt be hard, i am running a light with 2 39 watt bulbs on a 46 gallon bowfront.)


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## illy-d

So a quick update... I've had my 6 bolivians in their new home for about 2 weeks now. I re-did the scape last week in an effort to create more site breaks. Mission accomplished bit I am not happy with the result and have decided this will be a transition stage - more changes to come.

Of the 6 Rams I am confident I have two males - they are larger then he rest, don't display obvious genitalia and have trailers on the upper & lower rays of the caudal fin.

The remaining 4 Rams are not so easy to sex. I could have 4 juvenile males, but I think one of these smaller fish is female - maybe 2...

Despite only having 6 rams and a relatively small tank it's hard to keep track of these fish... I've created a lot of hide-aways and often I'll observed the tank for a time - decide I have a female for sure in the bunch, then I'll leave, come back and not be able to pick out which one I thought was a female...

I don't think these Rams are of the highest quality to be sure. Some of the smaller fish appear emaciated and the two larger males don't have the best colours on them. I am hoping clean water and a good diet will bring all of the fish up a notch or two. Only time will tell.

I have to say I find the interaction fascinating. The 6 fish so far display mainly ritualized 'aggresion' with flaring, ramming, some very minor and abbrevited lip locking and no damage inflicted. There is very little chasing - and none of it lasts more then a few inches, and often 3 or 4 fish will be taking part in these 'sparring' matches. No clamped or tattered fins and nobody hiding from the others - they often disappear from view, but ultimately swim happily into view a few moments later.

My tank is also probably overcrowded with tetras - it makes for a very active but distracting tank...

I'll get some photos up soon and may make a thread for the tank. Stay tuned.


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## orchid

Great Thread 
Here are my 2 supposed to be male and female but no look breeding them so far 



















i also have a question about compatability, could you put them in a tank with betta fusca or would they harass them ?


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## dwarfpike

They should be fine with the wild bettas, which actually make good tankmates for south american and west african dwarf cichlids. :thumb:


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## illy-d

Three cheers for Bolivian Rams: Hip, Hip, Hooray.
Two weeks into keeping these guys again and I question why I ever stopped in the first place. Best 'community tank' cichlid ever - the Bolivian Ram.
The next time I am able to set-up a 6 foot tank I'm getting a dozen of these guys and like 50,000 tetras (I tend to overstock, even in hyperbole).
What a blast.


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## Isis24

Fry pics! These are the same fry that have appeared in this thread a few times already. They're 2 1/2 months old, and they already have COLOR! I've heard that they don't get any color until much later. Is that true? The largest of the bunch is 1 1/4", and the smallest (really much smaller than the other 3) is still under an inch. in volume, the little one is about half the size of the others.

In fact, it's quite strange...i think the little one has some sort of epilepsy. every few days or so, he falls to the bottom of the tank, ends up on his side, and starts twitching. After about 10 seconds, he gets up like nothing happened. The first couple of times I saw this, I thought he was dying! It's been weeks though... He's quite slow to eat though. He WANTS to eat, but it seems like he either doesn't see the food very well, or...I don't know. He only goes after food when it's right in front of his face. I'm kind of worried about him, because he's clearly the weakest of the bunch. Any thoughts?

Anyway, here are some pics!





































The algae is embarrassing...so sorry about that. It's actually clean now, but it was so tough to get these pictures in the first place, that I didn't want to try again! I hope you enjoy the pics.

Lara


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## jimmyjazz1039

Hi guys, I'm new to these forums and pretty new to fish keeping in general, have a few fish in my thank, plus a frog and shrimp. I'm looking for a little advice regarding my Bolivian Ram, firstly what would you recommend to be the minimum size of the tank? Mine's a 60 Litre tank I'm not convinced it's big enough, but the store said it'd be fine and several websites range in their advice from 50 Litres to 100 as the minimum requirement.

Secondly some fish are best kept in schools, is the Bolivian Ram such a fish? Mine is on it's own right now and I'm reluctant to get any more fish since I intend on buying a larger tank in the near future. So will my Ram suffer from being on it's own?

Thirdly although the species is considered a peaceful fish my one does like to chase my Black Sailfin Molly, the Ram doesn't chase any other creatures in there though, just him. The Ram does also get chased around by my Gold Loach, I'm not too concerned about that though.

Lastly every now and then my Ram does like to sit at the bottom of the tank, dorsal fin down, and looking a little sorry for itself. I've read another thread on here about someone who's Rams started doing the same and they eventually died, so again should I be worried?

In addition to that last part I have recently lost a fish, it was a Clown Loach and completely unsuitable for my tank (which has taught me to research my fish choices before buying them rather than relying on the people at my local fish shop...) I did a 50% water change immediately after and as yet none of the other fish are exhibiting any behavioral problems, though the tank does seem to be heating up, the heater is on 26 degrees but the tank thermometer says its at 29. Ammonia, Nitrates and Nitrites are all at the levels they should be thanks to the water change.

Sorry for the length of this post, but like I say I'm a bit of a rookie so want to make sure my now favourite fish (since the clown loach is no longer with me) continues to live and thrive.


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## D-007

*Lara -* 
Great fry pics and thanks for sharing :thumb: Regarding the youngster with 'epilepsy', if you can isolate it in a hospital tank that would allo you to keep a better eye on it. Not sure what it's problem is but if it isn't developing properly you may have to consider culling it if things don't improve.

**********

*jimmyjazz -* 
Your tank of 60 litres is the bare minimum for your Bolivian, if it was in there on it's own. With you having other fish in there, the tank is overcrowded. So your intention of getting a bigger tank is a step in the right direction.

It's chasing of the Molly is because it see's the whole tank as it's territory and the Molly as an 'intruder' for want of a better word.

They do indeed fare better when kept as a group. It's 'sorry for itself' behaviour seems to indicate that it could be stressed out from being chased by the Loach. Then again, it could be just taking a break from chasing off the Molly. What decor do you have in the tank?

_My advice/suggestions:_
Firstly, increase your water changes to 30% and perform them every other day to keep the water parameters in top condition. This will help prevent any further losses. Secondly, if you like the Ram best, take the other fishes back and exchange them for either another Ram (of the opposite sex) or better still some dither fish like tetras (6 of them). Make sure there is good cover in the tank too. If you can get a picture of your Ram showing it's underside, we can help to sex it for you. Have a look at the second link in my signiture to understand what I mean better; you might even be able to sex it yourself :wink:

This will tie you over untill you can get a bigger tank, I would look into a 200 litre (55g US) if you can or as close to that as possible. Once you have your tank, decor should be fine sand, some smooth flat rocks, some driftwood and plants. Once the tank has cycled, you can transfer the Rams and tetras and then gradually begin to further stock the tank. This is a lot to plan for but you CAN do it gradually.

Regards,
D (BRC Padawan :lol


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## illy-d

hey jimmyjazz - welcome to the cichlid-forum and to the BRC thread as well. D-007 is right a larger tank would be better for your fish AND that in turn would be more rewarding for you as well... If I was in your shoes again I would take my next bit of advice as seriously as possible - buy the largest tank you can afford/fit in your house. Seriously, once this hobby gets a hold of you you're gonna end up with the biggest tank you can afford/fit in your house anyway so you might as well save money/time by skipping all of the small tanks and start with the big tank that YOU cangrow into... In the very least if you can get a tank big enough to accomodate a group of 5 or more Bolivians I think you will fall i love with thieir group behaviour as much as their individual behaviour...


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## Isis24

illy-d: your advice is hilarious, but SO true! I first officially joined the hobby in late October, and I just bought a 125 gallon! 4 tanks later (and only 7 months), it was bound to happen. jimmyjazz....consider the advice! :fish:


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## D-007

I have 6 that are occupied and 5 more out in the back yard waiting to be cleaned up/resealed. The smallest tanks I have are 2 10g's and the largest is a 125g. The other tanks are 20gL's and 55g's plus a 30g.

That 125g tank is outside and I am going to dismantle it so I can use the glass to build 2 180g plywood tanks. I think I can safely say I have that MTS syndrome for sure now :lol:


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## Isis24

Bolivian Ram Club on page TWO!? Blasphemy.

Well, the fry are growing fast! They're 3 months old now. I've moved them into my 25G to give them more room to swim. Here's a pic:










It has been 3 months since the original pair spawned. A a couple days ago, I realized the temperature in the tank was a bit high (80), so I turned it down two degrees. This seemed to have a big effect on the pair. They spawned last night!!!










This time, the male ate all the eggs. When I woke up this morning, I saw him picking them off the rock one by one. I was so so upset. They did so well the first time around. I don't know why this happened :-(


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## D-007

Where was the female?

The youngsters are certainly looking great - well done.


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## Isis24

When the male was eating the eggs, the female was at the other side of the tank. It's strange though, because after their first spawn, the female took on the primary parental role. She looked after the eggs, guarded the fry, etc. The male dug pits mostly, but spent less time around the eggs. When they hatched, the pair worked together to bring the fry to one of the pits. He was eventually the one who ate all of his fry after a few days free-swimming.

This time around, the male dug a pit and hovered above it for a day a two BEFORE the spawn. He didn't do that last time... Immediately following the spawn, the female took guard as usual, but the male just wandered off the other side of tank. Overnight, he managed to displace the female and took guard of the eggs. I think he was trying to keep the female away, but I can't be too sure. Then he ate his babies!!! I'm still upset about it. The strange thing is that the male is STILL hovering over that pit he dug a few days ago. It looks like he's guarding eggs that don't exist!!

Who knows when they will spawn next. I hope they'll spawn again in 3 weeks, but who knows. They went 3 months with no action!

Anyway, thanks for looking, and thanks for the comment!


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## edburress

Hi Isis, sorry to hear about the eggs being eaten. I'm afraid that's the life of a owner of a young pair of bolivians :lol: Your youngster looks great, its shape and fins have developed well. She'll be a stunner :thumb:

It's always possible a problem occurred before the male physically ate the eggs. I think sometimes when few of the eggs are fertile, they are developing fungus, or are compromised for any reason, the pair often opts to eat them. Unfortunately, from our point of view, it seems rather pointless and frustrating. I'm sure they'll become much better and more consistant with time. If the female will monitor and fan the eggs and the male digs pits like crazy, they probably have good instincts and just need experience, and work out their marital problems.

Ed


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## jamesman_1994

i origonaly had one ram in my south american tank, it seamed prety lonely so i got it a m8..... but i soon found out that they rn't realy the best fish when you put them in a tank with 3 firemouths 4 convicts some kribs green severums, and a big pink firemouth and a large chocklate brom. even tho i found them cool with all the colour they just wern't able to survive. so now i have settled for a lookalike red horse face. i only got him yesterday, well i think it is a him... but it seams to be able to deal with it's tank m8s so i am happy.


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## Isis24

Great news! My Bolivian pair spawned again!! They spawned on the 6th, but I waited to write about it because I figured the male would eat the eggs....again. But the eggs are still there! There are more eggs than I've ever seen from them -- probably about 200. The strange thing is, they spawned quite soon after the last try--17 days later. I know the norm is 3 weeks, but this is even shorter.

Anywho, I can already see little black dots in the eggs, so I know that they're forming well. A lot of the eggs fungused over, probably about 20 or so. With their last successful spawn, only 3 eggs fungused. I hope everything will be ok.

Well, after reading Dizzcat's foray into feeding live bbs, I think I want to try that. When do I need to start working on that? The eggs are scheduled to hatch tomorrow (the 9th) at 8-10am or so, and I think they should be freeswimming in the morning of the 14th.

I'll get some pics up of this spawn and my growing babies! They are HUGE! Only 4 months old, and they have lots of pink coloring, and about an inch and a quarter. I feed them hikari micro pellets, but they're really outgrowing those.

Oh! Just went to check on the parents, and it seems as though they've picked out and eating the fungused eggs. Papa also dug a pit right next to the stone with the eggs. It's funny--I move that rock around every once in awhile, but they ALWAYS spawn on it, no matter where it is in the tank! There are 3 other smooth stones in there, but they always pick the same stone to spawn on.

Thanks for reading!


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## Isis24

They're free swimming!!! They are SO cute. There are definitely more than 50, but I can't tell how much more than that. They're in a far back corner of the tank, so maybe I can count later. I had to remove Papa because him and Mama were lip locking and he's the one who always ends up eating the fry. So far so good. Mama seems really stressed, though the only other tankmates are dwarf cories and a twig catfish (never eats fry or eggs).

Taking a picture now would be pointless because I can barely see anything, but maybe in a few days if they're still not eaten!! I hope it works out well. Mama has never eaten her eggs or fry, so I have confidence in her (though she's only been through 3 spawns so far).

Thanks for reading!


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## trub

Hey guys, i've only just found this site- and i'm _sooo_ glad i did!

Currently i'm embarking on my second venture into the world of this awesome fish,
using a 30''x12''x18'' tank. I previously had both an Alpha pair and a Beta pair in a 37gal tank, alongside 5 Corydoras Trilineatus(sp?), 13 Cardinal Tetra, 18 Harlequin Rasbora and a Bristlenose Plec. All lived happily and although the Rams bred, they could never get the fry past a couple of days.

I want to make the tank as close to a biotope as is possible on a low(ish) budget and as is practical, and because of this i am wodering the following.

What are the best plants to get? I already have Java Fern on some bogwood.

Am i right in presuming sand is the best substrate? (Hope so, already got it, lol)

What would be the best dither fish to get? I would prefer either Rummynose or Cardinal Tetra's if possible.

And, as it stands, the only other tankmate they have is a Golden Nugget Plec.

I look forward to all comments, and thank you in advance, Mike.


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## Isis24

Java fern is great, and I've had luck with crypts and anubias. Oh! Amazon swords are also great, and my Bolvians always dig pits for their fry right at the base of the amazon sword.

Yep, sand is the best, because Bolivians love to sift through it, and again, they dig pits for the fry in the sand.

Dithers depend on whether you want to breed the Bolivians or not. Most dither fish will eat eggs or fry, but I'm not too knowledgeable on that point, so I'll let someone else chime in on this.

Your tank dimensions are exactly the same as mine, and I keep a bolivian pair along with 8 dwarf cories and a twig catfish (who is heavily supplemented with algae wafers and vegetables--he gets skinny FAST if I don't do this!). None of the tank mates eat fry, which is great.

Lastly, I'm not too sure on this point, but your pleco might go for eggs or fry (never had a pleco, but I think I remember hearing this fact many time here).

Good luck, have fun, and post some pics!


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## leopartner123

Hey all

I have a 29g tank set up and want to make it a planted SA. I want to stock my tank with a type of ram/dither fish. What would you all suggest? What are the pros /cons of both? German blue rams are soo much prettier, but i hear bolivians have more personality but are meaner. Any input/suggestions would be appreciated.


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## gage

I have had bad luck with the aggression of Blue Rams more then Bolivians to be honest, my Bolivians have always gotten along with everyone in the past, my Blue rams killed off dithers (I watched one psychotic male tear apart a red phantom tetra... out of that tank he went in with the bigger fish!!!

in general, IMO, there is no upside to having blue rams over bolivians, depending on the type of color you like, meaning do you like color? or do you like Iridophores (meaning the pigment cells that reflect the light in color)?

in general:

Bolivian's: Colorful, Personable, Peaceful, Hardy fish

Blue's: Iridophores (shiny), not usually personable, usually peaceful, but weak fish

Blue Rams naturally don't even have half the _color _ the ones you see in stores, a natural blue will only have a blue sheen when it turns under the light, they have selectively bred the Iridophores in the fish to have much stronger color on them, the selective breeding makes them weak.

Bolivian's colors are all natural (unless hormones are used).

It's really up to you, I am biased as I am very fond of all the Bolivians I've had in the past, and I have only kept them in pairs.

which brings me to my question :lol:

When Bolivian's are kept in groups, do you have to worry about them pairing off? or will they just stick to there school?


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## Dutch Dude

When Bolivians are kept in a group they will pair off,...if the group contains male and female off course. Imo the number of males and females is less important. The pairs will spend a lot of time togeather but also school in the group. After feeding they usualy start to quarel over territory. When there is danger they school togeather but they also socialize and play around in a group. Bolivians do so much better in a group and they will be much more fun to watch. Keep in mind that every Bolivian needs it's own territory and lots of sight breaks and territorial markers are availeble.


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## gage

so in other words whether you get pairs or not they will hang together anyways? sounds cool, I'll do that then.

It is a 90g tank that is going to have a lot of driftwood with moderate amount of plants (no CO2 or anything special so as much as the tank will allow )


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## Dutch Dude

> so in other words whether you get pairs or not they will hang together anyways? sounds cool, I'll do that then.


Not exactly,.....they will quarel and keep to them selves or to their partner and school togeather,.....all mentioned during the day. Thats their social behaviour people talk abouth. They have quarrels, make love take it easy and relax in their own territory and hang out with their friends / famely. :wink: IMO it isn't realy important to have equal number of males of females.

I don't know the exact stock list and it depends on that but a 90 gallon *could* hold 9 bolivians.


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## gage

hey, thanks for the help DD, I don't think I can have 9 " :lol:, as I will have a couple other bottom dwelling cichlids, so I want 5 to be my max if I do decide on Bolivians, but I am wanting a shoaling cichlid that takes on the lower half of the tank, so If the bolivians pair off and quit shoaling it is no longer what I am looking for 

however, if Bolivian rams are naturally pairing I will get a pair

EDIT: so lemme get this straight, they will hang in pairs,_ and_ hang in groups? that sounds cool


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## cholly2

*Hi anyone have Balloon Rams?? Im wondering what they need to strive . R they ok with that funky belly?? spec diet needed ? PRASAP Chaz *


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## Dutch Dude

Baloon rams are heavily deformed Microgeophagus ramirezii. Bolivians are Microgeophagus altispinosa so they aren't the same specie.


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## JenTN

Hello all! Looks like I'll be joining the club in a few weeks when I get my Bolivians! Right now I have a pair of Angels and 5 Flame Tetras (working to a shoal of 15). I cannot wait to get the Rams. I have never even seen one in person, they are snatched up very quickly around here. I am ordering mine, I don't want any from Asia. I have really enjoyed the pictures and stories on this threads...these guys seem like characters! They should fit in nicely with my Angles. In the past few days mine have stuck together like glue, then spawned, had a huge spat, fought for a day, divorced, and are now back together once I diverted their attention with the Tetras. :fish:


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## jack lover

Well hello all i got some questions about my bolivian tank  ,

I currently am cycling a 20g long (us) gallon with fourilite and have co2 and some fertilizers in there and my tank is pretty planted 3 watts a gallon and have a AT(aquatech) 50 and it is doing good so far and it going to house this 4 Bolivians hopes for a pair, 10 flame tetras(von rios) and 5-6 oto cats is that a good stock?

I do a 1 month filter clean and weekly 20% water changes to not disterb the plants i have a pH of 8 and am trying to lower it with co2 and driftwood  My only consern is about the rams will they do good in the flourite substrate or should i mix it with dark sand so they can sift through it?


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## gage

Ideally put the fluorite layer down first, then dump 2-3" of sand on top of it.

how many plants do you have? the fluorite may not be needed and may become a hassle.


----------



## jack lover

I have 5 small sword plants growing out for my 55g 1 java fern, Money wort, cherry hedge, madagaskar lace, hornwort, java moss, assorted hygro and others


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## gage

oooooook, ya, you want the fluorite :lol:


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## Dutch Dude

Gage,....I overlooked something in one of your posts.



> I am wanting a shoaling cichlid that takes on the lower half of the tank, so If the bolivians pair off and quit shoaling it is no longer what I am looking for


After they pair off they don't stop shoaling. They don't stay a in the group all day either. They display a variety in behaviour during the day. Some moments they shoal and some they keep to them selves or to the pair. If you look for a cichlid that stick in the group all the time you can stop looking on SA cichlids becouse they won't. I'm not sure why you want them to act like a group all day. Why Gage?


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## gage

double post...


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## gage

hehe, I was just looking to see if there was a SA cichlid that would shoal, just for something I'm not used to.

I may just have to start up a Tanganykan tank also, I could never get rid of my SA tank, like Sa's waaaay to much 

but regardless, ran into some really nice Bolivians today, so I grabbed a couple, will get more when I run into more!

They have been in the tank for about an hour and look at the nice colors already! they like my Amazon tank


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## Dutch Dude

Hi Gage,

Bolivians and most real geophagus are fish that shoal.

Those are some really nice looking Bolivians. Nice strong colored already after such a short time in your tank. :thumb:


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## Isis24

Gage, your bolivians are adorable! I want more bolivians in my tanks! I also can't wait to pick up a few more. I want to have 7 or 9 Bolivians in my new 125.


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## gage

thank you guys  they hang together all the time... I need more!!!!!! This is male and female though, so I'm hoping they pair up.


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## il2fd

Currently have:
- 4x Bolivian Rams
- 2x Gold Rams
- 2x German Blue Rams
- 2x Neon Blue Rams

Love them to bits.

My favorite photo:


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## gage

nice Blue ram 

just picked up 3 more bolivians


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## blairo1

Hello everyone, guess who's back from travelling. 8)

Several months have passed and man it's been a struggle to be without my fish, but I still have them all  , a friend took them all on for me whilst I've been away. So I get to reset everything now I'm back and settling down again.

Thinking of redoing the flooring in the lounge, after which I will put in the 7fter I've been saving for. Well, makes no sense to do it before :lol:. 7ft SA, should keep me entertained, the Rottie certainly needs it he's put on some size since I left!

Anyway, for those that remember, my OldBoy Bolivian is still alive and kicking! Although he's certainly showing his age, and coming back from such a long travel has really enabled me to see that, poor old guy, he's grandaddy now.

Nice to see this thread still alive and some of the old school of posters are still around!
Blair.


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## Isis24

That is so exciting! About the 7 footer I mean. Your rottie will look amazing swimming the length of a 7 footer. I've saved up and recently put a deposit on a 6 footer for my Severum, and I couldn't be more thrilled. Are you going to keep Bolivians in there?

How old is your "Old Boy" bolivian? Must be a bit sad to come back and see that your fish look aged 

I think we need a picture.


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## Dutch Dude

Heee Blair bud,.....finally back!!!! I did send you a PM some time ago but probably it was lost among the others. Good to have you back on the board and great to hear you have new plans for a large 7 ft tank :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


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## gage

Can't wait to see the school of 20 Bolivians in the new 7fter (hehehehehehe).

nice to have you back 

btw, any recent pics of Granddaddy Bolivian? How old is the big boy?


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## blairo1

Hey everyone! 

Yup it sure is exciting, I decided to travel instead of moving, now I know I won't have to shift it all to another country I can get the tank I've been after, I've found a company to build the whole thing, very nice stands and canopy too so I've got go get some more money together now I'm back and then I'll take it from there.

I'm still very tempted to go with a big(ger) fish set-up, but the main focus I think is to have a pair of Rotties (ie a female to go with my male), a group of Bolivians - the others are in sexual prime now so that's a plus I guess. Some more Laetacara as the female kicked it whilst I was away (no idea as I wasn't around to diagnose). And I'm still dead set on a pair of dwarf pikes.

I guess the old boy must be at least 5 years old, or around that. He's so mellow now it is kinda  as he was always such a maniac, still, nice for the other fish I suppose :lol:.

Ruurd I was able to get on using my mobile at certain points but i haven't been able to post, so I've kept up with you guys but honestly it's been such a time I can't remember when we spoke last. How are you my friend?

I will get some pics of the Old Boy once I get them set up and relaxed back in my kingdom :lol:.


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## Dutch Dude

Hee Blair,

I'm doing well my friend and good to hear things are OK over there as well. Good to have you back on the board although we probably won't discus Bolivians as much as we used to do. After 10 years they start to become boring. They spawned every week, I artificially raised wigglers, I had parent raised fry and breed 3 generations. I seen almost everything of their behaviour and no more real surprises left. Time to move on. I sold my 7 fish to someone with a 125 gallon heavy planted tank and he was pleased with the good qualety fish. I'm sure they will receive proper care and I hope the new owner does have the same amounth breeding and maintaining them as I did. For me time to move on to something more challenging,.....breeding Discus.

I love your rottie so I would love to see him with a nice female! Reading your plans I gues you will need some more tanks around as only a 7 ft. Good to hear the fish do OK except for the one Laetacara that died on you. When Bolivians become old like your male they indeed become more mellow and colors start to fade and can become fat as well. Still I would not be surprised if the old male occasionally would "fight" with a young male to prove he is still kicking. I seen this more than once with one of my old dominant males until 3 months or so before he died at the age of 7 years.

Talk to you later bud and welcome back :thumb:


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## GotTanked

Hey,

I have a 30G Long tank and I want Bolivian Rams. How many would be feasible? I was hoping to have a shoal of 10-ish tetras, and possibly some top-level fish too.

Tank has Tetra Whisper 30 HOB filter. Low light, will be planted with Anubias Nana, Java Fern, Java moss. Has manzanita driftwood and burls, will have rocks.

What do you experts think?


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## JenTN

Woo-hoo...I'm FINALLY a card-carrying member of the club :dancing: I was planning on having to order Bolivians. However, my LFS finally had some in stock, and they were NOT hormoned (yay!) I got a lovely group of five juvies about a week ago. They are so pretty and lively. The travel in pairs, or separate into a group of 3 and a pair...or individuals or 4 and 1...or the group of 5 will shoal together. My sister comes over often, and she has decided they are her favorite of my fish (surprising because she really likes my Angels). They swim all over, and have staked out territories. They definitely have the most personality of all the fish in the tank!

I think the got the name "ram" from all the lip-locking they do


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## GotTanked

They were actually discovered by a dude named Ramirez, hence the Ram. Not to be a prick about it, just thought you may think it was cool.


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## guitarz1972

I'm in the process of taking down my 44 gallon tank and setting up a 110 gallon in its place. Of the fish I have in the 44 gallon right now, the two bolivian rams are the only two fish I'm intending to keep.

They're both males evidently. Each one has permanent claim to about a six-inch radius area, one underneath some vals on the side and the other lives in the middle part of a growing melon sword. When I feed the tank, one will invariably invade the other's territory and chasing will ensue. Occasionally, I catch them in a lip-locking contest. The little skirmishes they get into are really hilarious.

So the new, "dream tank" will be a 110 gallon freshwater planted, 5-6 angelfish, 18 cories, 18 silver hatchets, 4 otocinclus, a pleco of some nature - and of course, the rams. Can't wait to see how these jokers do in their new home.

C


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## FishingFrk

Does anyone have any experience with their *bolivians eating their eggs* after spawning? I have a new pair that spawned for the first time and the female slowly pecked away at her eggs. I have heard that it is common for young pairs to be crappy parents and some will improve with experience while others will not change. So im wondering if i should give them time and see if they get the hang of raising them, or do you think theyre doomed as parents? Is this common with first spawnings?


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## infotech

I have two Bolivian Rams that I've had for over a year now. I posted in this thread back when I got them. THey were supposed to be male/female, but it turns out they are both males. Whenever I feed them brine shrimp or blood worms they tend to fight each other. For a while they both controlled a half of the tank each. Surprisingly in the past week or so the smaller of the two has taken over pretty much all of the tank. The little guy won't let the big one out of his corner without a bought. Is this normal, or should I ask my LFS to give me another to try and pair up a male and female?

I have a 20 long with plenty of plants and hiding places.


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## FishingFrk

I feel your pain. These things can be the most moody, confusing fish ever. Sometimes my pair loves each other while other times they nearly rip each others lips off. Right now my little female controls the whole tank and punks the 2 other males, go figure. I feel that these things really need a lot more space than is usually recommended. I have 3 in a 28 gallon and thats def not enough. If you want a pair i guess the only remmedy is to get a female.


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## infotech

I think you're right that a larger tank is needed. My 20 long has the foot print of a 29 gallon and I have it full so lines of site are broken up. Early on, before I had so many plants and root the big guy would harass the little one non-stop. They seem to go through stages.. I just got a new 75 gallon I considered getting 5-6 Bolivian Rams and some Geophagus, but decided to go mbuna instead. However, the draw of seeing the Rams in the larger tank is still making me consider it.


----------



## infotech

Well, one of the BRs in my tank forced the other to a far corner. The poor guy spends his time hiding behind a filter. Is there anything I can do?


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## GotTanked

You can rearrange the tank decor, or remove one of the problem fish to a better environment.


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## guitarz1972

Well life is good! I've set up a 110 "extra-tall" that I craigslisted for $100 with the stand! It's heavily planted, but I'm too cheap to invest in a CO2 system right now - so we'll see what happens there in the weeks to come.

Anyway, I've stocked it with six angels and six bolivian rams. Here are the other guys -

6 albino cories (half of them not really looking too good; a couple "runts" in the mix and perhaps some questionable stock from the LFS at the time)
1 bristlenose pleco
2 yo-yo loaches (some of my plants carried in a minor snail population)
9 silver hatchets (currently in quarantine due to ich)

I'm trying to feed the tank twice a day on my days off from work, and once a day in the evenings during my four-day work week. Just feeding with Spectrum Thera-A pellets now, but I might go back to doing a bloodworm-pellet-garlic extract cocktail pretty soon for some variety.

The angels are pretty small, but I'm hoping the angels and rams will start pairing off, and that I'll see some nice coloration soon. The rams seem to be settling in nicely. Gotta love those dwarf cichlids!!


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## infotech

GotTanked said:


> You can rearrange the tank decor, or remove one of the problem fish to a better environment.


I rearranged the tank and they are getting along better now. I actually catch them on the same side of the tank when I go in to feed them. One of them is always a little higher in the water than the other...


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## hollyfish2000

question about feeding. I just got five Bolivians from the LFS and they're in my 30 gallon quarantine until they're transfered to my 60 gallon very heavily planted tank with tetras, cories, BN pleco.

right now I'm feeding frozen blood worms and brine shrimp and NLS H20 flakes. Is that a good mix? I can also give them the occasional shrimp pellet or algae wafer. And zuccini, if they'll eat it. Any suggestions welcome.

My 60 gallon is only 36" long. I'm assuming five Bolivians is all I should have? It is very heavily planted with driftwood and rocks as well . . .

I don't know their sexes. They were all in the same tank at the LFS, so I assume raised together? They seem to get along fine. And I love them. Wow, do they like to say hi when I'm walking by!


----------



## hbeth82

Just added 5 of these little guys to my 55 over the weekend and so excited to finally have them! Really like watching them and they certainly add some character to the tank. They're not too excited about eating just yet and mostly scavenge of the bottom but it took them a while to catch on while they were in the 20 isolation tank, so I figure this will be the same. Unfortunately, this is the best picture I have of them so far,










Would much rather be sitting in front of the tank than this stupid computer screen right now opcorn:


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## mrs.som

We became proud owners of a quartet of BRCs yesterday (hubby fell in love).
I'm just wondering, from your experience, how long it usually takes (in days) for them to feel comfy and confident in the tank. Right now they are mostly hanging out in the back corners where the plants are.

Thanks!


----------



## Fevz

Hello all. I am new in this forum and i am freshly in love with cichlids  
Few months ago i bought a pair of bolivian rams and i just enjoy looking at them. They are really interesting fishies. Annyway this is a pic of my male ram

EDIT: *sigh* I hvae to have 5 posts to post links :? 
I will give you the pic when i get there :thumb:


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## D-007

Glad to see this place is still going strong 8)

*hollyfish2000:* The bloodworms and brineshimp are good foods. The flakes are good when they sink but IMO they would be better off with pellets that sink. The zucchini may or may not be eaten by them; depends on their 'mood' at the time. :wink: Food suggestions would be sinking pellets, home made fish food (plenty of easy recipes on the net or PM me for one) and frozen bloodworm or mysis shrimp as a treat once a wek.

*hbeth82:* Congrats on the new additions.

*mrs.som:* Congrats on becoming Ram owners =D> It should take no more than a couple of weeks for them to settle in; most likely a lot sooner.

*Fevz:* Welcome to the BRC :thumb: Looking forward to when you can post him


----------



## poorgirl




----------



## poorgirl

Can you guys sex my rams....I know 1 is male but not sure about the other 3:


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## poorgirl

The 3rd ram is always very pale looking ..not sure why as the other 3 seem to be coloring up fine.

All in half sand, half gravel substrate with the sand at the front.


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## D-007

Regarding the first picture on it's own, it looks like a young male.

Regarding the 3 pictures you provided above, the 1st specimen looks to be a female. The 2nd specimen I can't tell as the vent area can't be seen. The 3rd specimen looks to be a male.

Given that the 3rd Ram is a male, being subdominant will contribute to the paleness along with being a youngster.

Can we get a full tank shot to show them in their glory :wink: ?


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## Dutch Dude

Poorgirl,

Looks good! They have grown and still need some more growing to do and some extra flesh on their bones but so far you have done a great job. First is a male, second a female, third hard to tell but might be a male, fourth most likely a male. The pale looking fish is probably the fish below on the picking order. Things will get better later on but I expect that one won't show strong colors up until it starts to breed. For now it looks like 3 males and a female but I'm not 100% sure on the fish on the last 2 pics. The female (pic 2 ) already shows some nice trailers! I'm sure she will become a very beautiful female!

In a month or so sexing will be easier.

Ruurd


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## poorgirl

Thats guys.

I was hoping the 2 new rams are females. Looks like only one is a sure female. Just have to wait and see about the other unsure one. Hopefully the pale will be a female too. Since I brought it about a month back it is still not showing sign of developing the sexual organ.

Anyway here is 2 pics of my tank


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## CGY_Betta_Guy

I have a spawn of fry about 3-4 weeks old that are still with their parents in my 55G tank and are free swimming and fairly active. They are currently separated from the rest of the tank with a tank divider so the fry are safe from the other rams. I was wondering how long the fry should be kept with the parents? I am guessing its might be a good idea to put them into a grow out tank eventually.


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## GopherWacker93

i was sold a pair of bolivian rams a few months back. The male is smaller then the female and will chase her away just so her cant see her every time she comes to close. Why is that?


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## Fevz

My bolivian club is bigger now. I have 7 of them in my new 400L tank. My oldest and the biggest is the tank boss. He even scares my red heads


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## Fevz

Oh and here's the pic of my dominant male 










Will give more pics, when i get more time


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## sophie

Thought I'd post here.

My BR was my first ever cichlid. I've had him for about 6 years now (actually bought him for my son...). I've been severly affected by MTS - multiple tank syndrome- since then (220 g with Fronts, 2 x 180 with trophs and a 125 mixed haps) 

don't have a pic but do have a small video.



Sophie


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## Chris2500DK

Here's my male









and with one of his two females









I'm planning to get 2 or 3 more as soon as I get my new tank running.


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## Compressed

:lol: :lol: This is STILL going :lol: :lol:


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## leopartner123

Could someone tell me if my bolivian is male or female


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## Chris2500DK

Looks like a male to me.


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## adam79

I agree, male. His business looks too narrow to be a female.


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## ron_s

just picked up a couple rams at my lfs. pretty sure this one is a female, can anyone confirm?


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## D-007

Agreed ... it does look like a female


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## Fevz

I have few questions in my mind. 
First one is. When did your rams start to spawn after you got them in tank?
And the second is a bit strange. So here it goes. Every day, before lights go on, my rams have really beautifull colours, and then when the lights turn on they lose their colours. Then they look like one in a photo i posted few posts up.

Hope you guys understand


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## CGY_Betta_Guy

My rams started spawning about 2 months after putting them into the tank. I think they needed to establish their dominance order as well as territories. The plants grew in which helped alot as well.

I would say the lights turning on freaks them out a bit and they stress out thus losing their colors.


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## knfanning

I'm a proud owner of 6 juvi bolivians now. I paid for 3 and my lfs gave me 3 for free because they were th last in the tank due to a few defects like curved spine on 1 and clamped tails on the other 2. They were going to end up as feeders so I thought I'd give them a a chance to come around. I have one of them currently quarantined because he looks kind of week the other 5 seem to be doing great though


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## Cvurb

Hi guys, I guess this thread has not been open for awhile, but might as well. I have 3 Bolivians in my 50G, just got a pair, their first spawn was successful, and my fry are just starting to get free swimming! I have a lone male, but will be getting him a female. I was wondering if it is ok if your Bolivian does not really have a yellow color, but a orangish one. He is amazingly pretty, I will try to get some picks of the males!


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## D-007

*Cvurb*, can you get a picture of that particular Bolivian you are asking about? I'm leaning to it being ok but without a picture I'm hesitant to say yes 100%.

Congrats *knfanning*. The clamed tails could be just down to stress or unsuitable water conditions at the LFS.

I agree with *Betta_Guy*'s thoughts on the lighting question. Do they stay dull/uncolored for the whole time that the light is on?


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## Dutch Dude

Adult healthy Bolivians show a nice orange like color in stead of yellow. Also dominant fish show stronger orange as sub dominant fish. :thumb:

Clamped tails often relates to serious health issues like intestinal parasites. A lot of small black spots and pail color of the body and dark eyes relate to stress or not feeling well.


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## Cvurb

Yah Dutch Dude, My dominant male has more orange than my other male, who has a lighter yellow. I'll Try to get a picture of him.


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## Dutch Dude

Cvurb,...it is also in the females. A dominant female can be as strong colored as a male and also show the orange. It isn't always strong orange and depends also on the spawning activities.


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## Cvurb

Here is the male that is not paired up:









Here is the pair:


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## Dutch Dude

Nice young Bolivians! Their colors will be stronger over time and they will show more blue almost iridescent in the second half of their body. It is likely the trailers on the fins will grow larger as well. Keep on the good work :thumb:


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## Cvurb

WEll they do have pretty long trailers, about 1.5 cm, the camera doesnt really pick them up though


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## Cvurb

Well I'm kinda mad atm... My Other Male is trying to spawn with my female, and he is scaring away the male from the pair, will the female succumb to his efforts? Or will she ignore him? I'm trying to buy another female ram, but they don't have any in stock at my LFS right now, next week though.


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## Fevz

It's natural that they scare males around. When my bolivians spawned few weeks ago. They terorised every fish in the tank


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## Cvurb

Well it is not that, I know they fight, but this one male is breaking up a pair it seems like and is trying to spawn with the female from the pair.


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## Evan805

As of yesterday I am the proud owner of four Bolivian Rams! 2 male and 2 female.








When I put them in my tank they had almost no color at all. I am happy to see some subtle tones today. It almost seems that they're pairing up already.


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## Cvurb

I wouldn't say pairing up this fast is impossible. But Very unlikely. They are most likely under stress, and like mine, they form a little group when they are stressed. But that would be awesome if they did already pair up.


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## Evan805

Cvurb said:


> I wouldn't say pairing up this fast is impossible. But Very unlikely. They are most likely under stress, and like mine, they form a little group when they are stressed. But that would be awesome if they did already pair up.


It's kinda strange... one male and one female are one the left of the tank and one male and the other female are on the right side of the tank. All four will meet up and hang out in the middle for a bit then they will go back to their sides. I dunno?? I saw a little lip locking this morning. Maybe I'm just over-analysing.


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## middlearth

Hi- I'm setting up a 46 gallon and had pretty much decided to get a couple of pairs or so of apistogrammas, but the Bolivians look amazing- pretty fired up thread!! 
Anyone know if they would sort themselves out OK if I got a couple of each?
Would you recommend a pair of apistos and maybe 3 Bolivians?

Gosh, I hate the deformed looking rams of any sort- I can't believe they sell them!

Thanks for any input! :wink:


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## Isis24

What are the dimensions of the tank? If I were to mix the two species, I would do a trio of apistos and a pair of Bolivians, since Bolivians are pairing fish and apistos usually harem fish.

What kind of plants/decorations do you have in the tank? A picture would be great


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## Cvurb

*Evan805* The lip locking can be territorial, and pairs will do it to test each other. I would wait another week to make sure. My Bolivians were fighting one day, then layed a batch of eggs the next.


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## middlearth

Isis24 said:


> What are the dimensions of the tank? If I were to mix the two species, I would do a trio of apistos and a pair of Bolivians, since Bolivians are pairing fish and apistos usually harem fish.
> What kind of plants/decorations do you have in the tank? A picture would be great


The tank isn't set up yet, my husband finally finished the stand he made for it yesterday :dancing: 
It's a bowfront: 36Lx20Hx16 deep at widest point. I've got tons of bogwood and will have a planted tank( but no CO2 so not too heavily planted)... I guess I'll have to figure out how to post pictures eventually...! :wink: 
It seems with the apistos it depends on the type- I read last night recommendations to keep the trifasciata in a trio, but the Agassizi females would kill each other off...

So if I break up lines of sight, perhaps they will each establish a territory and stay out of each other's way?


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## Isis24

yes, i think it's likely. 36x16 is a good footprint and I think it's enough room to keep a pair each of bolivians and apistos (or a trio of apistos if it's a harem type).

Congrats on having the stand finished 

In the photo section, I think there's a sticky on how to post pictures.


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## Cvurb

Has anyone ever had any experience with Bolivian Rams, and Cockatoo Apistogrammas together?
And would it be ok if I had 2 pairs of Bolivians and a pair, or a trio of Apistos in a 55G tank, heavily planted, with lots (Lots) of Driftwood?


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## Compressed

All I can say after a long absence is WOW! This thread is still active...who knew?! On a sad note I went through a divorce & lost my Mom and had to put my fishkeeping on hold for now. But, there are a couple of empty tanks in the basement and I hope to get some more BRs soon :wink:


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## cage623

*Compressed*

Look what you started!!! :lol:

I just got my first rams a few weeks ago. Before that I was mostly a larger CA guy. But I moved my tank into my office and didn't want anything too aggressive for the tank. I know it has only been a few weeks but I am pleasantly surprised with these feisty little guys. Here are some pics:


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## Compressed

Yep, I've been known to cause trouble


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## D-007

Welcome back Compressed. Condolences on the loss of your Mom.


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## Compressed

Thank You D-007


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## wdywarrior

does the black sand keep the bolivians from showing their bright colors. i have had 6 bolivian rams for 12 weeks now and are not coloring up. is it due to my black sand? thanks.


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## Cvurb

No, your Bolivians are too youngl (Do you have males?).


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## wdywarrior

lfs said i have 4 males and 2 females. but i can't tell.


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## Cvurb

Then they are probably too small to have colors yet.


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## cage623

*wdywarrior*

It is my belief that the color of one's substrate makes absolutely no difference on the color of fish (at the very most it is a very minor factor in the equation). I do believe that some people prefer black substrate and backgrounds because it allows the color of their fish to stand out more. If your BR's are not showing much color they are most likely just too young. The way you need to look at it is color is costly by a metabolic stand point. Fish have to invest energy into producing scales with brighter colors. The only reason they will do so is if it directly benefits them and they have the energy to spend on it. Young fish get nothing out of being more colorful. The reason adult fish benefit from color is it attracts mates and thus has a large benefit. The other reason your fish don't have much color would be if they are stressed or starved for energy (lack of food). But normally aquarium fish don't have problems with ingesting the needed food to keep good color, especially when fed a quality flake or pellet.

Give it some time, the color should come with a little more age. If you want more input on them I'd post some pics. If there is a problem people on here may be able to identify it or help you determine the sex of your rams. Good luck.


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## arKat17

<------- Rex

I've owned 3 Bolivian Rams. 2M, 1F.

RIP Rex - the first BR I ever owned. I think he died of old age. (he's my avatar)
My second BR, Rex's Brother (RB for short), died of old age too.
My third BR, Rex's Wife, is alive and kickin.

I love BR's because of their personalities and colors. If you ever buy these guys make sure to put sand in the tank because they love to dig and make round holes and shimmy around in them all day. My Rams were never skiddish or afraid of people as they walked by the tank and loved getting fed. They are bottom dwellers so they eat off the ground, which I find entertaining. The 3 Tetras that live with my BR right now are companions, they all hang around eachother and Rex's Wife is the leader of the pack of course. Without her I doubt they would really be at home in there tank.

If anyone is interested in Bolivian Rams - hands down - my favorite fish. There personalities outweigh any saltwater or african mbuna any day.


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## Cvurb

I need my LFS to get in more Rams... I want another female to bring my BR count up to 4. I think I will call them now... They are probably sick of me... Like every other day I ask them when they will get Bolivian Rams in


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## Cvurb

DANG, not until next Thursday :x


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## Newbreed

You live very close to me. I live in san diego.

There are 2 great places to get Bolivian Rams here.

Pet Kingdom in Ocean Beach and Aquatic warehouse. on Clairemont mesa Check them out.


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## Cvurb

My Bolivian Ram place is GREAT, mine spawned first time, and both parents knew exactly what to do, so they have a great breeder with strong lines. I would like to go to those places, but I can't drive yet (Those are like 50min away) and my parents get kinda lazy.


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## Mirriah

Hello BRC folks!

I've just set up a tank earlier in the month and while in the LFS I ran across some bolivians! They were just so cute, so I went home with three, two females and one male.

Well in very short order they've stolen my heart! Such cheeky and charming little fish.

Anyway I had to come on and post because 'lo and behold I have ram eggs as of today! Seems really fast but I'm glad they like my tank! :lol:

I've never dealt with fry or eggs before, so some advice would be very welcome. Is there anything special I need to do for them?


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## cage623

At about what size is BRs pair off? I have 6 in my 72 gallon, I believe that 4 are males and two are females. I would say that largest one is just around an inch at the moment and is starting to show nice coloring. The others are just a little bit smaller and have a varying degree of color to them.

Also is it too late to add a couple more? I have had the above group for about a month now and I would like to get 2 more females. I would have gotten more originally but the place that I get them from always gets them at such a small size, they are hard to sex.


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## Cvurb

My didn't pair up until they were full grown, might be different for others.


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## JenTN

Well, here are a few pictures of mine- they don't do them justice I am a horrid photographer. Mine have spawned twice but both times the eggs got eaten by cories at night  I now have a divider so if they spawn again I will put it to use.


























These pics were from a few months ago.

It's amazing how much these guys have changed since I got them (I have 5)!!! They were so drab and tiny- I am really glad I read and researched, I would never have bought them at that color, let alone stalked the store for weeks until they finally had some LOL. I was glad to be able to get some locally that weren't hormoned.


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## Evan805

Everytime I go to my LFS to check out their bolivians they always look so stressed and washed out. ...In my tank they really color up nicely.


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## Cvurb

Well all fish in a LFS will not show his/her true colors, and a thing to really look for in Bolivians is if they are small and really colorful, because if they are you could bet that they were given hormones, thus making them colorful, and then people want to buy them.

BTW my Bolivians just spawned again!


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## Compressed

U GOT to be kidding me :lol: :lol: This is still active..OMY!


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## Dutch Dude

Hahaha,....look what you started Compressed :lol: Isn't it great?! :thumb: :fish:


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## iLuvAngels

Hi,
I've got a question to ask my fellow Bolivian Experts.....I'm getting 6 juvenile Bolivian Rams in about a week and am SO excited  It has taken me about two years to finally get them. I will be putting them in my Quarantine Tank for a couple of weeks before placing them in my main tank. Just wondering how quickly do they establish territories? Since it is my quarantine tank, I don't have substrate or live plants. I do have a few fake plants and some other little decorations here and there where the fish will be able to hide if they feel the need to.

Will they be okay in this set up for a couple of weeks until I move them to the main tank? I always quarantine my new fish just to be on the safe side but want to make sure the Bolivian Rams will be okay since they establish territories.

Thanks


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## iLuvAngels

Getting my Bolivian Rams next week and I am SO excited!


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## Dutch Dude

Don't worry, some fake plants will be fine for quarantine. Main concern will to fatten them up becouse most Bolivians are way underfed when they arrive at our homes. Good foods are small discus pellets like Tetra Discus, some frozen artemis and bloodworms. On occasion you can also feed some chopped frozen krill. A good qualety flake is also a posebilety but during chewing and picking up a lot is turned into dust and is a messier food. I suggest to keep the water qualety high during the quarantine so they gain health quickly. Ooh and by the way,...don't feed to much bloodworms. You will be fine :thumb:


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## iLuvAngels

Thanks for the reply  They are around 2 months old. I am getting them from a breeder so hopefully they will be in better condition when I get them than if they were at the Local Fish Store. I just filled up the quarantine tank with water from my main tank and put fake plants in it. I'll run over to the store to get the food you suggested tomorrow.


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## Dutch Dude

Oooh you get babies of only 2 months! Thats great! Hopefully it is a hobby breeder. And,...don't be disapointed abouth their dull colors. Most likely they will only show some color in the pelvic fins and thats it. This will change in a couple of months.

If the QT is a new set up I suggest to keep a close look on nitrite and ammonia. Best is to feed them small feed 3 to 5 times a day. Don't feed to much bloodworms becouse this can couse gas build up in the intestines. When the fish grow to say 1 1/2 inch you can reduce to 3 feedings and when they hit the 2 inch you can reduce to 2 feedings. (feel free to PM me)

Take care and have lots of fun growing out your Bolivians. :thumb:

Ruurd


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## iLuvAngels

Thanks Dutch Dude,
I'm sure you will probably be hearing from me after they arrive. I'll be sure to PM you if I have any questions. Yes, I am getting them from a hobby breeder which is a plus. I was going to ask you about feeding them since they are so young but you already answered my question 

I have an extra media in my 65 gallon tank that will be placed in the filter of my QT so it will already be cycled when my "baby bolivians" are put in their temporary home. I'll be sure to check the parameters every day just to be on the safe side.

Counting down the days! :fish:


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## Dutch Dude

Eeeeh,....sorry I must have been sleeping becouse I forgotten all abouth the small size of the fish and the foods I suggested. 

At that size they should eat the suggested foods but depending on the size of the fish you need to chop it up. At 2 months they should be around 1 inch. If they swallow the bloodworms there is no problem but if they don't you might want to chop them in smaller pieces. I take a sharp knife and chop the frozen cube into slices. Be careful not to cut your selves! They probably swallow the artemis without cutting but again,..if it is to large you can cut it. The discus granules are most likely to large but when they are soaked after 10 minutes they can pic small pieces off. If that doesn't work you can feed some flakes. In smaller fish (say 4 weeks) you can put some pellets in a pepper mill and grind them down to dust food. Make sure you keep the tank clean enough and especialy the substrate. Decaying foods can foil the water rather fast.

The Bolivians are most likely not used to the pellets. The fish can be picky if foods with a diferent taste are introduced. It takes them 1 or 2 weeks to get used to the taste. In such a situation it is best to feed the new food in the morning when the fish are hungry. This way they are les picky and get used to the food faster.

It is indeed a big plus your fish come from a hobby breeder!

Talk to you soon and take care,

Ruurd


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## iLuvAngels

Well, I'm an official member of the BRC! My little guys arrived yesterday. All were alive and well. I drip acclimated them for a few hours and they are now in swimming around in my QT.

I am so happy that I finally got my Bolivian Rams


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## car0linab0y

Joined the club today I guess. My first non-Africans. They're in the wife's community planted tank. It's supposed to be a suprise, so hopefully she doesn't notice them for a while.


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## Janis64

Mine arrived Wednesday of last week. On Tuesday night they spawned with about 200 eggs laid on a rock. Yesterday we got wigglers that mom and dad have moved into a depression they created.

I wasn't expecting this so soon. They are way cool fish!


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## car0linab0y

Janis64 said:


> Mine arrived Wednesday of last week. On Tuesday night they spawned with about 200 eggs laid on a rock. Yesterday we got wigglers that mom and dad have moved into a depression they created.
> 
> I wasn't expecting this so soon. They are way cool fish!


Did you wait until they claimed an area and then put the rock there, or was the rock there already and they claimed it?


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## Janis64

car0linab0y said:


> Did you wait until they claimed an area and then put the rock there, or was the rock there already and they claimed it?


It's a planted 55G and I had a couple of rocks in with the Eco-complete when they arrived. More were added a couple of days later. I tried to assure that some of the rocks were more sheltered than others. They were focused on 2 different sheltered rocks in 2 different areas then settled on the one for spawning. The one they picked is under a medium sized sword with another smaller sword to the side, near a corner of the tank. It is the most sheltered location.


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## car0linab0y

Got eggs today... wasn't prepared at all. Looks like the Danios will have a high protien dinner this evening.


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## irondan

i have been keeping bolivian rams for years and they are among my fav cichlids. beautiful and great personalities. here are a few pics
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii11 ... oct113.jpg
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii11 ... oct213.jpg
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii11 ... moct22.jpg
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii11 ... 3oct24.jpg


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## kamikazi

I'm now part of the Bolivian Ram Club. Pretty excited about it, last July I got a 29 gallon tank. I finally got the tank setup and cycled a few months back and then a few more months of waiting for one of the lfs to get some in stock.

I debated alot between Bolivians and Blues. I decided on Bolivians b/c they seemed much calmer than Blues at the store, plus they are hardier.

I will try to get some pictures soon.

I bought 2 BRs (not sure on the sex yet) and they are in the 29 with 1 peppered cory, 5 x-ray pristella's and 5 golden pristella's.

I wouldn't mind having a top of tank dweller, but I dunno if that would be a good idea or what to get.


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## kamikazi

More dominant[/img]








Less dominant, he colors up when the other isn't looking.


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## Chubbs the Jellybean

The more dominant one is identical to all 3 of my BRs lol, i think he's a male


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## BladeRider

I returned to fish keeping in December after a 7 or so year break and fell in love with the Bolivian Rams at my lfs and decided I was going to have some.. So 3 months down the line I have 2 pairs which are both now breeding


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## BladeRider

Here is one of my pairs of Bolivian Rams with the fry they are now raising in my community tank. I've had them since January and this is their second attempt at parenting. They are in a 100 x 30 x 45 tank with Purple Emperors and Black Widow Tetras.

LINK


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## Fevz

Oh you guys have such cute BR's! I really miss mine gang of 7 rams back in days. I am seriously thinking of replacing dicrossus with these guys in my 15 gallon tank :fish:


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## cjacob316

I just got a couple of br's, I had some a while back, and really wanted to get some again.
How do you sex them? vent?


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## Thepauly

What might be the M/F ratio if I wanted, say, 5 of these cool dudes in a 55gal? Keep looking at larger CA cichlids, but always catch myself coming back to BR's! thanks!


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## Chubbs the Jellybean

2m/3f or 1m/4f

Right now through dumb luck I have 3 males in my 30" tank, thank god they don't bother each other


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## Thepauly

Thanks! Was about 50 pages deep in this thread searching for that answer....didnt work out too great! Now I cant wait to pick some of these up!


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## PanzerWels

Got a pair of Bolivian rams about a month ago, and one week later they spawned  
I managed to save some of the fry, and now have 25 growing fast youngster in my 10 gallon tank.

Here is a photo of the female with her babys (about two days old as free swimmers) does this make me a member of the club?  









Cheer's...PanzerWels...


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## Dutch Dude

Panzerwels,.....Congrats on the fry. Whats stressing the female? She shows the small black dots and often this is related with high stress levels. Have you checked the water qualety?


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## PanzerWels

Hey Dutch Dude, thanks for the message.

I believe she is a bit upset due to the male Bolivian was trying to eat the fry and they had a bit of a fallout over it, and she had to sent him packing!.
Also haveing to Anglefish hovering overhead, waiting for her to let her gaurd down was not helping the matter much either!

This photo was taken about two weeks after the fry were removed, she looks a bit happier here, but it looks like the male/female relationship gets a bit fragile at times as the male is a bit of a bully boy  .


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## ADG

Hi all, thought I'd ressurect this superb mega-thread with a question of numbers. I've recently moved my Bolivians into a larger tank, a 100 x 40 x 55 cm Fluval Roma 200. They currently number 4 and my alpha male is resorted to his old bossy ways - particularly has it in for my largest female.

In their old tank I boosted numbers froim two to four to spread the aggression and it worked very effectively, so I'm wondering can I get away with getting another 1 or 2 into this tank? I have two females and two males right now.

These two fish in particular in the past have tried to spawn (particularly after the second pair were introduced) but have been unsuccesful. The female no longer looks interested in spawning and the male hounds her all the time.


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## Cromak

I have 4 wild caught, full grown.. They are almost all pushing 4" 
They are in a 55 gallon along with 8 German blues, I'm trying to get a mated pair or pairs.. So far all doing well but to keep these together i may have to increase the tank size.














































Oh and these are old pictures.. Ill post new ones once i can get them. They are much more colored up now since settling into the new tank.


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## JRo

I'm the proud owner of a 29 gallon with a group of 1:2 bolivian ram! For some reason they seem to have all bonded together, and swim around the tank in a large group. I've got them in there with 7 loreto tetra and a bulldog pleco. They seem quite happy, and I was contemplating adding a single larger cichlid, like an australoheros oblongum. Is this a recipe for disaster? The tank is quite heavily planted and driftwooded.


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## ADG

Hi, can't advise on larger chichlids, I am strictly a dwarf type only man! But I just had to come on and mention two of mine are in the process of spawning with a stone covered in tiny ram eggs - this is the first time any of my rams have made it to this stage so I am pretty stoked. We'll wait and see what happens next: trying not to get my hopes up yet but... progress!


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## TeteRouge

Been hearing about BRs on here for years. I am in the process of re-doing my tanks due to a family emergency requiring a sudden trip, failure of auto feeder (or something) -resulting in the loss of my Koi Angels and rummynoses-long story, another time. Anyway, I picked up a pair of Bolivian Rams a month ago. Now I see the appeal, they are real characters! Totally fun to watch! For now they are inhabiting my 10 gal "quarantine" tank (ha!) with a few others...

Sorry about the horrid photo quality-done on a phone...it doesnt do the colors or tank any justice, but its all I have at the moment.._have_ to get (and learn to use) some equipment..

Himself

Shy one


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## Z90a

Hey 
I'm looking into getting a pair of these guys for my 20 long. I want some boxwood and rocks in the tank to plant java moss and java fern on. I read that Bolivian rams like lower light levels. So what light should I get that works for those plants and the rams. 
This is my first tank and I'm so excited. What food and filter should I get. It'll be just two or three rams in order for them to pair off after pairing I'll separate the single into a 10 gal. Would this workout. I'm also thinking of a dwarf pleco to eat the allergy
Any sugestions


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## TitoTee

Anybody remember this thread?


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## ADG

I read this thread from start to finish (apart from a couple of corrupted pages half way through) about a year and a half ago when I was first got my Bolivians. It is a goldmine of information.


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## halffrozen

I knew there was one!!!


----------



## TitoTee

On a side note I just picked up a pair of GBR (Florida raised) yea! And I pair of Electric Blue.

Both pairs are Bonded :thumb:

Now I just sit and watch opcorn:

He had no Bolivian's or I would have snatched some of them as well.


----------



## Ranks

Hi everyone, I mistakenly made a topic asking these questions before I saw this topic--but they seem more fitting here.

Currently in my 29g I have:

2 Bolivian Rams
8 Rummynose Tetra
1 Albino BN

I'm extremely happy with my fish--especially the rams who are incredibly endearing--but have a few questions.

1. Today my BRs stopped camping on different sides of the tank and actively began to move around the tank with one another. They had fought relentlessly for the past few days with one of them usually losing and being chased around the tank, but today, despite there being a fight every few minutes, they refuse to move around without one another. Is this normal behavior for fish who have established a pecking order? Is it a phase? Is it prelude to becoming a pair? I've seen sexing guides from this forum and others and believe that I may have a male and female (due to shape of the face and tail), but they are only around 2 inches at the moment and their fins are not so distinct from one another. If this is not a sign of pairing, what are some other behaviors I could be looking out for?

2. My rummynose simply outcompete everyone during feeding time. I throw in wafers, dried bloodforms, flakes, and pellets...and everything besides the wafers never reach the bottom of the tank due to my rummies. Is there a certain way I could be feeding my BN and BRs? I've tried manually putting the food on the ground, but as soon as my hand comes out of the tank the rummies take it all as the other fish seem to take a long time identifying food from substrate (white sand)

3. The top of my tank seems extremely barren with no activity. I've read that some people like to add hatchetfish, but I have a top that does not cover the whole of my tank (it has a hob filter) and do not want to add them for fear that they will jump out and die. Are there any alternative top-dwelling fish that work with rams? I've heard that some people have success adding gouramis or bettas, but that does not seem like such a good idea given that they are territorial.

Wow, that turned out to be quite a wall of text. Thank you for your patience!


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## NewRamMoma

I have had good luck (so far!) keeping my BR with Golden Wonder Killifish. The killies stay at the top and the rams cover the rest of the tank with my tiger barbs. Seems to be working for me. They also have quite the personality, so between the tigers, killies and rams it is just a tankful of personality!


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## BigJag

Just placed an order for 4 Bolivian Rams to go in my 35 gallon tank. Set the tank up yesterday and today I put 8 Neon Tetras, 3 Cory Cats, and a Bristlenose Plecto in it. My BR's will be here on the 17th and I cant wait. When researching the Rams, one site gave the scientific name as Mikrogephagus Altispinosa, is this correct? If not, what is the correct scientific name for them?


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## BelieveInBlue

yup that's right, although The genus can be spelled Microgeophagus or Mikrogeophagus.


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## iLuvAngels

First let me say that I LOVE my Bolivian Rams!!!!!
I've been keeping them for a little over 2 years now. I'm moving my 5 Bolivian Rams from the Community tank to a tank of their own. I just bought a 30 Gallon Long for them but am going to take it back and exchange it for a 30 Breeder which is what I thought I was buying in the first place.(I hope they have one in stock) One pair has formed out of the 5 and I'm hoping they will get past the "egg" stage of spawning once I move them over to their own tank and away from all the pesty fish in the community tank.

I want to make this Bolvian Ram tank as perfect as I can for them and also as pleasing to the eye as possible. I want a beautiful tank! Nothing fancy and high tech though. I'm moving a few ferns and anubias from my main tank to the new one and also want a few more easy plants that go with Bolivian Rams.Does anyone have an all Bolivian Ram tank? If so, can you post pictures of your aquarium so I can get an idea of how to set this tank up? Don't worry, I won't steal ALL of your ideas 

Thanks!


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## FishLover66

WHEW! I can't believe I made it through this thread! I certainly learned a lot! Now I REALLY can't wait to get my Bolivian Ram pair!


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## ADG

this is a thread thet just keeps on giving 

Good luck with your Bolivians. I've got 4 adults and 1 juvenile from a spawn last year in my main tank, and nine 5 week old babies in the grow out.


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## cmm933

does anyone know how to sex Bolivian rams?


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## FishLover66

cmm933 said:


> does anyone know how to sex Bolivian rams?


Here is a link I found in this thread (somewhere): 
http://brc.moonfruit.com/#/sexing-guide/4528902946


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## Compressed

You have got to be kiddin me :lol:


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## ADG

ello here's a few of my 2 month old fry










feeding time!


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## dwarfpike

Compressed said:


> You have got to be kiddin me :lol:


Nope, 5 years and counting!!!


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## ADG

The thread that never knows when to die. Compressed spawned a monster here!


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## Compressed

Is there a prize or something.....ribbon, plaque... anything 8) ?


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## garryp

I have: 75 gallon, well planted, CO2 and roughly following PPS with daily injection and daily 10% water exchange, approx 40 common community fish. ammonia, nitrates, nitrites are always reading 0. The tank is filtered by an Emperor 360 at each end. I hate the noise of the Emperor power filters, but they are otherwise good. So circulation is forward across the surface then downward at the front glass. The middle is a mixing area where the CO2 injector flows.

To that I added 6 Bolivian Rams, about 1 inch length, about a week ago. They stay at the bottom, usually in a corner, usually as a group, though there is one wanderer that sometimes makes me think I have lost one because it is out of sight. Sex of the 6 is unknown.

They seem happy, occasionally locking lips, staring one another down, etc. And my 2 cories seem to think they have found soul mates.

Their co-occupants are such aggressive feeders that I see little getting to the low level of the rams. I do see them darting for pieces that I cannot see, but I am concerned that they do not get enough. I feed cichlid flakes, "green" flakes, and small sinking cichlid pellets and a small dose of dried worms.

Will the Bol Rams ever become more aggressive feeders? Can they possibly get enough to eat? If I put flakes in water to wet it, and pour in, the larger flakes quickly reach the bottom, but they only go for fine stuff. And they pick at the bottom very little, so the pellets are probably going to waste. Normal?

Also, when can I expect then to start pairing up? I put in a couple of small flat rocks in case they get the urge.

Are they intimated by too many companions, all of which seem to ignore them (except the cories). When it is not feeding time and you look at my tank from across the room, the 40 companions mostly vanish among the plants as if the rams aree not there.


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## Hunnee75

Hey all-I have recently acquired some bolivian rams. I bought two, initially. One of them died within days of purchase, while the other one is thriving. They were sparring pretty consistently. I'm not sure what the sexes were, I believe that the one that persevered is a female. I bought another yesterday, and am not sure of the sex. Could I have a little help, if I post the pics, please? The ovipositor on the one that was purchased yesterday is not evident at all. Are they visible in juveniles? As I said, I now believe (judging by the ovipositor) that the first is a female. Thanks in advance, for your help, guys...


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## mrkengos

I love my bolivian rams too ... got 4 online a couple weeks ago and they are settling in just fine. One pair started breeding already!!! I thought they would be way too young for that.


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## Hunnee75

Were you able to buy them sexed? Or were they sort of a grab bag?


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## ADG

Hunnee75 said:


> Were you able to buy them sexed? Or were they sort of a grab bag?


The first two I bought were a more mature, easily sexed pair of adults, but I still needed confirmation online. The second pair I was sure I bought a male or female, turns out both were female as they've both spawned in my tank with my male. I guess they were too young when I brought them home to be sure of the gender. Easiest way to sex is to examine the vent/ovipositor. Post some pictures, and we can try - but on a juvenile it won't always be developed enough to tell. I have a 6month old ram we raised from the first successful batch of fry - I am unable to sex it yet.


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## Hunnee75

I have some pics, but I can't figure out how to post them. The one that we just purchased doesn't have a visible ovipositor, and is relatively small... Does that mean it's a juvey??


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## Hunnee75

Still trying to get a pic on here... Sorry.


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## Hunnee75

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos- ... 1145_n.jpg


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## Hunnee75

This is the female. I'm posting one of whatever-sex-it-is next...


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## Hunnee75

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn ... 9938_n.jpg


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## PaulC

Hello Everyone,

I have been reading this thread with great interest over the last few days (up to page 74 so far). I have kept tropicals for a number of years but it was only a couple of months ago I found out about Bolivian rams and pretty much fell in love with them.

I am looking to add a couple of BR's to my setup but want to run it past you guys first if thats ok:

*Aquarium Specs*
Model: Aqua One AR-850
Capacity: 165 Litres
Filter: 1000 Ltr / Hr external with trickle system.
Substrate: Fine clay cat litter. Ver soft and light.

*Average Water Parameters*
Ammonia: 0
Temperature: 26
Nitrite 0
Nitrate: 40 
PH: 7.2
KH: 13

*Inhabitants*
11 Lemon Tetras
2 Female Dwarf Gouramis
4 Neons
5 Red Wagtail Platy's
1 Female BN Pleco
6 Peppered Cories










The layout is as of yesterday. From what I understand, two rams will need at least a couple of hiding places. On the right are a couple of medium pieces of bog wood covered in a large anuibias. This provides a nice hiding place with gaps between the wood and the roots from the anubias.

The back has some new plants which will fill out but I am adding several more which should also provide good hiding places. Finally, I will be adding more wood (maybe stone) to the centre / left amongst the plants. Hopefully this will be enough.

Although the plants look newish (and some are), the tank is very well established (3+ years).

So my questions are:

1. Will 2 rams be suitable in this tank with the existing inhabitants
2. Would two BV's of the same sex be ok together

Thank you for looking.


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## Hunnee75

From my research, and reading the info on here, two of the same sex are discouraged. They should be fine with the fish that you have in there. I have a pair that are male and female, and they get along with everyone. The male has a slight distaste for my gold gourami, but other than that they're good... The BR has more bark than bite...


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## PaulC

Hunnee75 said:


> From my research, and reading the info on here, two of the same sex are discouraged. They should be fine with the fish that you have in there. I have a pair that are male and female, and they get along with everyone. The male has a slight distaste for my gold gourami, but other than that they're good... The BR has more bark than bite...


Thanks Hunnee - Do you think this will be overstocked?


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## Hunnee75

How many gallons is that?


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## PaulC

Hunnee75 said:


> How many gallons is that?


44 US


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## Hunnee75

It should be alright, where they're all small fish. A good rule of thumb is one inch of (full grown) fish per us gallon...


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## Lil'Gills

Hello all!

I just thought it was time to come out of the shadows, as I've been stalking this thread (and getting loads of information from it) for months! I think it's fantastic that there is such a welcoming group of keepers, and a club specifically devoted to the proper care and keeping of these amazing and beautiful (and so often overlooked!) little fish!

I'm the proud owner of four little 'Livies - purchased at the beginning of May (I'm fairly sure I have 4 females and 1 male). They're living quite happily in my 29 gallon community tank, and *hopefully* will be soon upgraded to a 55 that's been hanging out in my basement just_ BEGGING_ to be put to use. . .

mostly I just wanted to say hello - and thanks for all of the wonderful information gathered here. I've really enjoyed reading about all of your personal experiences over the last 6 months or so, and am looking forward to being more active on here. It didn't take very long for these little guys to become my favourite fish (to be fair... ALL of my fish are my favorites, in one way or another!)

http://www.fishtanks.net/fishtank.php?fishtank=4976

The tank has filled in quite a bit since then plant-wise (need to get some new pictures!), most notably the floating plants which cover the entire surface, much to the joy of the fish who dwell there. I'm just about to add a shoal of 19 wild-caught Jelly Bean Tetra and call it done. . . that is, until I set up the 55, which *hopefully* will be within the next month :thumb: Since I'm here, I might as well ask - Do any of you have a recommendations on the best brand/size canister filter for the 55 gallon? If it helps, it's long, not tall!


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## halffrozen

Look into the SunSun/Aquatop's(heard MANY good things about them) or get an Eheim or Fluval.

Check out the Review Section, it is full of great information!

Always better to over filter!

Also, Bolivian Rams do not like a strong current, so keep that in mind.


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## LilGills

Fantastic, thank you! It seems like Eheim is the most highly recommend brand. . . Should be a fun move


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## halffrozen

Boom!


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## FishLover66

WOW! What a beautiful Bolivian! I can't believe how bright that yellow is!!!! Gorgeous.


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## oldwheat

This is my breeder male..


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## FishLover66

Wow, another beauty! I'm planning on going to my fave LFS tomorrow to pick up a male. Hopefully I can find a colorful guy.


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## Lil'Gills

Beautiful babies, both of you!!!

I just finished my tank upgrade to the 55g - my little rams are still settling in, it's only been two days, but so far so good!


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## ADG

Love your layout there, lil. Can you provide detail on the plants you've used; paricularly the one just below the surface?


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## LilGills

Thanks for the compliment, ADG! Sorry to have been away for so long - September has been a beast of a moth over here!

I've gotten a lot of comments on those floaters! In truth, if its the plants with the pointed, ovalish shaped leaves you see floating at the surface, THOSE are PLASTIC! I got them to shade the fish (who all came from other tanks with a nice canopy of floaters)and also to give the floaters something to hang onto while they grew out! I'm surprised at how many people seem to like them - even in person(I didn't!)! They were the biggest 'bang' for the buck, PetSmart sells a huge bag of them for around $10 - called Bamboo leaves, lol! Since then the other floaters have taken off, so the plastics have been removed, and I'm starting to get a nice bunch of roots dangling down into the water 

Otherwise, the large swords at the back are Kleiner Bar Swords. The smaller grasses are a combination of Pygmy Chain Swords and Dwarf Sagittaria, the taller grasses are a combination of various Vals (Spiral and Jungle, neither of which seem to fare well in my soft water), and the taller more 'wavy' grasses are Cryptocoryne Spiralis (which does great in my tanks). The stem plants are Cabomba and Anacharis, there are a few varieties of Java Fern in there (most obviously the one toward the right of the tank, on top of the largest rock - a Windelov). There is also a Cryptocoryne Wendtii, and a couple of other tiny shoots of this and that - you probably can't even see them in this shot! Basically. . . I pulled every plant I could spare from every tank I have and tossed it in there! Seeing a LOT of melting on my gorgeous swords, and the crypts also *sigh* Hoping they rebound quickly and thrive in this tank as they have in my others! The wood is manzanita . . . this is a low-tech, low-light tank. Really looking forward to watching it grow over the years!

I have 2 new little Bolivian Rams in quarrantine right now! One male and one female. They'll be ready to go in on Wednesday, crossing fingers that all goes well, and the current 4 accept them into their group. This will bring me up to a total of 2 males and 4 females. . . I love my little rams, and they seem very happy in their new tank.


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## BelieveInBlue

Very nice tank.

As a side note, swordplants feed heavily from the roots; if they're melting a lot, adding a root tab might help. Same goes for the crypts. Of course, the swords might be melting because the floating plants are blocking all the light.


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## LilGills

Thanks for the input, Blue! 
I do have root tabs in there, and lots of new growth everywhere else. . . I think I need stronger lighting for this tank, looking into a dual tube - right now I'm only running one. The canopy isn't as dense as it seems in the shot, to be honest - and even less so now that the plastics have been removed.

Crypts. . . in my experience. . .are notorious for melting when they're moved, and they're coming back quickly.

The Swords are the ONLY new to my tank plants in this setup, and they were shipped through the heat from a high-light Co2 injected setup. . . so I was kind of expecting them to have some difficulty with settling in. *sigh* Just hoping that I'm not adding TOO much lighting now  Adjusting to a new tank is always tricky for me at first.


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## Lil'Gills

*Pokes thread*

C'mon, guys! Lets see those little 'Livvies!!! I want some fishy eye candy!!! I know you're out there. . . show yourselves!


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## Lil'Gills

I suppose I should put up some of mine to get the ball rolling. . . these are from a few months ago, I have to take some newer ones 




























C'mon, guys - show me your babies!!! *luffs Rams*


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## halffrozen

Just to show them more and more... here are some of my new BR in my 75gal.


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## dougjeffries68

Our first successful brood.

It is fun seeing others enjoying their rams. Very fun fish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOgwcyVk ... e=youtu.be


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## Lil'Gills

AHHH! THERE they are!!! I had *almost* given up on this thread! Hooray for 'Livvies!

Frozen, your babies are beautiful! The tank looks great, too - who else lives in there with them? Do you have a full tank-shot, I'd love to see it. Very nice!

Doug! Awww! Those are Rams born in your tank? Wonderful! I can't tell scale from the video, born in April - how big are they? Do you have any shots of mom and dad? That must have been an amazing thing to see. . . maybe one day I'll get lucky enough to become a gRAMa! 

To the rest of you hiding in the shadows of ramville . . . come on - I know you're out there, show off those beautiful Bolivians! Lets get this thread going again!


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## Lil'Gills

I HAVE EGGS!


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## nxzemagrl

I have 2 and absolutely love them! :fish:


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## BillyBlyth

Hi. Can anyone help me sexing my Rams. I think both male. I've made a college for each one, sorry i couldn't get better pictures.


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