# Salinity Parameters & Death



## Cichlitte (Mar 30, 2008)

Will attempt to make this as short as possible. I bought some plants (java fern & val) from a LFS... one I've purchased from many times. I put part into my 75 gal and rest into a 10 gal guppy tank to grow out more.

In 75 gal I had two pair of temporalis shellies, a pair of peacocks, and five semi-juvenile bristlenose plecos, sand bottom, holey rocks. (it's a tank in transition, thus odd mix) Guppies, baby guppies, a bristlenose pleco and three cories in 10 gal. Did a 30% water change in each tank a few days later, on schedule. All water parameters fine, both before and after.

Three days later, see fungus on two guppies, and a very small spot of fungus on mouth of female peacock (no, not holding). Think, oh ****, plants?? Put in a cup of aquarium salt, each tank, left for about six hours, then removed. Some interest over salt, but not much.

Wake up next morning to four dead plecos, and two dead female pregnant guppies. Have slowly raised temp in 75 gal to 82 degrees. I have Rx to treat whatever, but here's the question... I cannot find the "high" side of salinity tolerance for the temporalis/peacocks/plecos. Am wondering if my salinity is too high.

I have a hydrometer, but haven't checked yet, because I've been trying to figure out what level reaches overdose. I'm tired of looking for it, both here and everywhere. Can anyone help?


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## Cichlitte (Mar 30, 2008)

Admin... if I should move this elsewhere, please let me know. I just need an answer. Thanks.


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## aquariam (Feb 11, 2010)

1 cup to a 10G is definitely fatal. I've never really heard of anything about one measuring tablespoon per 5 gallons for freshwater community fish like that.

I wouldn't have added any salt honestly. If your tanks are healthy and the fish are healthy and everything was fine before and all that happened was some fungus came in on some plants I would just do water changes daily until it went away and maybe add some pimafix but I probably wouldn't. Really clean water usually fixes these things for me.

Going to the high side of salinity tolerance for freshwater fish, especially soft-freshwater fish, like most plecos, is not really good for them. Certainly just as bad as getting a little fungus on them. 
I would just do water changes every day until it goes away. Maybe take the plants out, rinse them really well in tank-temperature tap water for awhile.


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## scrubjay (Oct 25, 2009)

Not sure what you mean by this:


> "left for about six hours, then removed. Some interest over salt, but not much."


How did you remove the salt? What does "interest over salt" mean? 
Like aquarium said, I'm pretty sure you killed your New World fish by adding all that salt. Different species of fish will have different salt tolerances. Cichlids are more tolerant than some fishes. I'm not sure why you wouldn't try a medication for fungus though? Salt seems to be mainly used for parasites.
If you read this article on salt, you may understand why it may have killed your fish, and why it probably isn't great to rely on it as a fish health supplement:
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/salt.shtml


> "As with other parameters (pH, hardness, etc.) the real stress is not generally caused by the actual values in question, but by the speed of the change. Fish should be acclimated to higher salt levels the same way they're acclimated to differences in pH or hardness."


Any quick change in water quality can stress or kill fish: pH, temperature, salinity. Be extra careful with water changes with the African cichlids as they are some of the least tolerant to changes in temperature and pH especially.


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## steelers fan (Jun 26, 2009)

i think he put salt in a cup then lowered the salt cup and all into the tank for the fish to nibble on maybe...like a food bowl for a dog :-?


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## Cichlitte (Mar 30, 2008)

steelers fan said:


> i think he put salt in a cup then lowered the salt cup and all into the tank for the fish to nibble on maybe...like a food bowl for a dog :-?


Exactly. And "cup" doesn't mean a measurement. The one in the 10 gal was a shot glass, the one I put in the 75 was a small glass ramekin.

If you put salt into a tank like that, and fish "hover" above the water where the cup of salt is, it's a good indicator of parasites, then you can medicate with an anti-parasite. If they don't, it's most likely bacterial or fungal infection. It's just an old-time way to not start shot-gunning meds when you don't have access to a microscope or the know-how to understand what you see under the scope.

I've done it for years, with never a problem. That's why I was thinking perhaps salinity was too high already, and was looking for parameters of salinity. And the fish that died were fairly nasty with what appears to be a fungus.

I had already rinsed the plants... evidently not well enough. Is there anywhere that I can find the parameters for salinity for Malawi or Tang? Perhaps I'm just not looking in the right place, or have looked at it and not understood -- I know nothing about salt water tanks, etc.

And just as info... I'm a "she" instead of a "he."


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## 748johnd (Jun 30, 2007)

Cichlitte, I never put plants in my tanks without first sterilizing them. Rinsing them is not good enough. I recently bought a bunch of very clean looking anacharis and rinsed it and then put it into a plastic container for a couple of days before sterilizing it. When I went to sterilize the anacharis I noticed a small red worm crawling on the bottom of the container. Even if plants look clean you can't be sure what you are introducing into your tank. There are basically three methods of sterilization--alum, a weak bleach solution and potassium permanganate. You can PM me if you want instructions.


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## Cichlitte (Mar 30, 2008)

748johnd said:


> Cichlitte, I never put plants in my tanks without first sterilizing them. Rinsing them is not good enough. I recently bought a bunch of very clean looking anacharis and rinsed it and then put it into a plastic container for a couple of days before sterilizing it. When I went to sterilize the anacharis I noticed a small red worm crawling on the bottom of the container. Even if plants look clean you can't be sure what you are introducing into your tank. There are basically three methods of sterilization--alum, a weak bleach solution and potassium permanganate. You can PM me if you want instructions.


Sadly enough, I know better. I was just overworked and got lazy because it's a place I buy from often and trust. I know... bad thought process.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Cichlitte said:


> If you put salt into a tank like that, and fish "hover" above the water where the cup of salt is, it's a good indicator of parasites, then you can medicate with an anti-parasite. If they don't, it's most likely bacterial or fungal infection.


I've heard many an "old wive's tale" and there's often some truth behind each, but this one sounds like it's rubbish. Perhaps it works for flukes, and the myth has extended flukes outwards to "all parasites". Flukes curl up and drop off fish if suddenly exposed to high salt concentrations or formaldehyde... most other parasites would be more likely to burrow further into the skin of the fish.

Both Lake Malawi cichlids and Lake Tang cichlids are very salt tolerant, far more so than the plecos. No one cares about the dosages to reach mortality as no one wishes to expose cichlids to unnecessary stress with sub-lethal levels over something like a fungus that likely has some underlying cause triggering the outbreak.

I would begin by checking out the pH, GH, KH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels of the tank so I could begin to guess at what is going on in there, and I would have started by doing large water changes and slowly raising temp as I checked out the true situation in the tank. 
It probably would have been days (or never) that I resorted to meds or salt. IME, too many fish are killed by over reactive owners than are killed by some little illness...

I can't even begin to think how many times Iv'e seen Ich on some frshwater or saltwater fish and plain good old quality care cleaned it up! even on something like a Discus or Powder Blue Tang...


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## Cichlitte (Mar 30, 2008)

Number6 said:


> Cichlitte said:
> 
> 
> > If you put salt into a tank like that, and fish "hover" above the water where the cup of salt is, it's a good indicator of parasites, then you can medicate with an anti-parasite. If they don't, it's most likely bacterial or fungal infection.
> ...


I would say that I must be an old-wives-tale-rubbish individual. I already said... "All water parameters fine, both before and after." And I'm not an over-reactive person. But don't feel the need to post the numbers... believed it would be taken at face-value. Guess not.

Indicated 'twas a short abbreviated version of how I was treating an unusual situation. And it isn't Ick. Wouldn't have bothered posting if that's what I believed it to be. Yeah, I'm doing "extra" water changes. And do them often, and on schedule.

Yes, there are different schools of thought on the use of salt in a "freshwater" tank, and I happen to be one of those old-school folks who believe salt has its place Think I said something about raising temp in the tank, BTW.

I know how to deal with fish. I might or might not agree with your theories. That wasn't the point. My question was about salinity parameters. And no one bothered to tell me that... it was the original question.

Ya know... I've posted a question two or three times here. And out of three, or so, I get smacked. Not trying to be a flamer, but wondering why I bother to post. Seems as if I must "prove myself" prior to asking a question. I don't have the time for proving myself. Some do know quite a bit about the keeping of fish, even tho' they don't post here often.

If I sound a bit miffed... 'tis because I am.


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## scrubjay (Oct 25, 2009)

Cichlitte, I'm sorry you feel you were "smacked," because I don't think anyone intended to insult you. It's really hard to tell how experienced a person is from one post, and sometimes certain points in a post get lost, so I think Number6 was just trying to help you get to the bottom of the problem.

As for myself, I was confused as to what you wanted. Since I have never heard of this "salt test," I really did just assume you poured a cup of salt into each tank, so going from that, to dead fish, to wondering what salinity tolerance your Africans have... But see, I had never heard of salt being used as a parasite treatment before coming to this forum. As a fish biologist, I tend to think the "attraction to salt" is probably not a valid test for parasites--as a scientist, I tend to be very skeptical unless I see some experimental results. But it does sound as if some people have success treating parasites with salt as a "dip" or bath, I don't know. I know that Rift Lake cichlids are definitely more salt-tolerant.

Here is a table showing the various concentrations in the lakes:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/aquarium_salts.php

It does turn out that plecostomus are salinity intolerant. 


> Members of the Loricariidae family of suckermouth catfish, called "Plecostomus" or "Plecos," are almost exclusively a freshwater fish. With little tolerance for salinity, their geographical range is from Panama to Uruguay in South America.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Yup, trying to get to the bottom of what allowed an opportunistic illness like Fungus to attack the fish and trying to get to the bottom of which of your actions killed these fish.

If you feel smacked down, I don't see why. All I challenged was your info like "fine" and "fish hover if". I never suggested that your situation might be Ich. Perhaps you misread that...

I did answer your question about salinity. I explained quite clearly that it is higher than many of your other fish, and something that knowing the exact level for isn't something worth knowing. If you wish to know what the exact salinity level that is lethal to a pair of Peacocks and then to Telmatochromis temporalis sp shell then you also have to specify what duration you are asking about and need to ask about each species separately. The errors in your question led to me giving the appropriate answer to the question "as asked".

If you wish to know the lethal dosage to those two species for constant and long term exposure, then I do not know it and I'd be shocked if anyone else does. I would guess that they would have had to run the experiment themselves to determine the lethal levels. Lots o luck trying to locate that specific information!


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## Cichlitte (Mar 30, 2008)

I would say I was having a bad day, and was also extremely frustrated. And most likely asked my question poorly, due to my frustration. Yes, sometimes one's words on a screen don't come across as intended. On my part, if I seemed pissy, I apologize.

I own a bait & tackle store, and a watergarden store that sells koi. Thus, I'm used to using salt for different treatments. Quickest, least harmful and least expensive treatment for ich and chilodinella. We also use when treating for other parasites such as flukes, lice, anchor worm. Not because it kills the parasite, but because it aids the slime coat.

I'd read the article about aquarium salt posted above. Unfortunately, I'm not smart enough to figure it out. Guess what I am looking for is a parameter I can understand, such as is given for different lakes for pH, i.e. Lake Malawi's pH ranges from 7.8 to 8.6, Lake Tanganyika pH levels range from 8.6 to 9.5. Perhaps there is no such thing, or I'm just unable to understand the tables.

So I was wanting is to test my aquarium water to see if I'd accidentally gotten a build-up of salt over time. I've had folks do that in a pond...replacing more salt than was actually "removed" with water changes. And yeppers, unfortunately I probably OD'd my bristlenoses with salt. I wonder why they're touted as being an okay companion fish to cichlids if their tolerance is that low?

I did find this "All fish can handle some salt in moderation. Its all on how much they can handle. A brackish tank is a freshwater aquarium that has rather high salinity but not enough to be considered marine. A marine tank ideally should have a salinity of 1.023. So for a true brackish tank you would want around 40-50% of the marine salinity so ideally around 1.011-1.015. A pure freshwater aquarium would read out at 1.000 so by keeping it no higher than 1.005 you are letting your aquarium have the benefits of salt without it harming them."

Does this sound reasonable? 1.000 to 1.005? In the meantime, off to do another water change.


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## scrubjay (Oct 25, 2009)

I have to admit, I fail at chemistry AND math!! :lol: I can figure it out, but my mind seems unsuited to it!
"Salinity" in the Rift Lakes may be high, but salinity measurements include all salts, not just Sodium Chloride, so presumably a water body could have high salinity, but still be low in sodium chloride. And conceivably, a species could be tolerant of high salinity, but not high sodium chloride concentrations? I have no idea, sorry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salinity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresh_water


> Freshwater can be defined as water with less than 500 parts per million (ppm) of dissolved salts


500 ppm = 0.5 ppt (0.5%). "Other sources give higher upper salinity limits for freshwater, e.g. 1000 ppm or 3000 ppm [1-3%]" The "1000 ppm" here must be the 1.000 you are referring to? :-?

In the paper linked below, it says Lake Malawi salinity is 0.205, but how does that translate to your scale? 2.000? :? But the salinity of the sodium chloride portion is only 0.0212. Does that matter in terms of adding salt to a tank?

"The composition of Lake Malawi waters (WÃƒÂ¼est et al., 1996) is given in Table 2."
http://www.eawag.ch/research_e/apec...n of State for Freshwater/millero frank j.pdf

All I have discovered is that I am very intolerant of salinity! :roll:


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## Cichlitte (Mar 30, 2008)

scrubjay said:


> I have to admit, I fail at chemistry AND math!! :lol: I can figure it out, but my mind seems unsuited to it!
> "Salinity" in the Rift Lakes may be high, but salinity measurements include all salts, not just Sodium Chloride, so presumably a water body could have high salinity, but still be low in sodium chloride. And conceivably, a species could be tolerant of high salinity, but not high sodium chloride concentrations? I have no idea, sorry.
> ...
> 
> ...


 :? H-e-doublehockeysticks... Okay, I understand the part about salinity and "all salts" now. That makes sense. And I, too, have discovered the salinity intolerance factor.... and here I thought all science guys were good at math and 'twas just me. :lol:

This afternoon, fourth or fifth day in a row, I've done yet another partial water change. And I decided that instead of beating my head against a wall researching, I'd have been better off to use that energy on the water changes. At least I know there's no chance of salinity overload now. 

Thank you for your research and help. 'tis appreciated.


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