# Update On Predatory Community Tank, going on 9 months now...



## terd ferguson

I hope this doesn't turn into another flame fest and then a lock. Keep it civil. This is not the place to discuss whether it's right or wrong to do what I'm doing. Some of you may remember a couple of similar threads of mine from a few months ago that quickly turned into a poo poo storm of "your fish will kill each other" or "your a liar if you say there's no aggression". This is a thread to offer my experiences so that others may learn from them. If it turns to that again, I'll have this one locked and deleted too.

For those that don't remember the old threads, my tank is 190 US Gallons. It measures five feet long by two feet wide by thirty inches tall. I have a 50 US Gallons wet/dry sump with a QuietOne 6000 (1,500 gph) providing the main filtration. this is supplemented with an Emperor 400 (400 gph), two Penguin 1140 powerheads (300 gph each), and a Magnum 25 H.O.T. pushing water through a Coralife TurboTwist 36 watt UV Sterilizer. There are also two 300 watt heaters, one in the overflow and one in the sump. I got this tank used as a "leaker" and took it completely apart and resealed it. I also built the stand.

The stock is as follows...
Parachromis managuense male (jaguar), about 14", named Tiny
Parachromis managuense male (jaguar), about 11", named Teeny
Parachromis managuense female (jaguar), about 5", named 
Parachromis friedrichsthalli male (freddy), about 12", named Captain Awesome
Parachromis loiselli female (loiselli), about 6", named Lois
Amphilophus festae female (True Red Terror), about 8", named Red
Astronotus ocellatus (Albino tiger Oscar), about 14", named Albie
Aequidens rivulatus male (Gold Saum or False Green Terror), about 7", named Stuart
Synodontus eupterus (Featherfin Catfish), about 6", named Corky

All sizes are measured with a ruler against the glass when the fishes come close. True size in photos may be deceptive due to angles and the 2' width of the tank. Keep this in mind when viewing photos. All fishes are really as big as claimed.

I change approximately 100 US Gallons or more of water each Sunday. Water conditions are tested regularly and are constantly excellent. I keep the temperature at 82 degrees. The substrate is pool filter sand with natural rocks and driftwood for hiding spots. I feed these guys 3 to 4 times per day. The feedings consist of manufactured pellets like Hikari Cichlid BioGold, Tetra Cichlid Sticks, and shrimp pellets. I also offer live foods from time to time. These consist of Rosey Reds, Comet Goldfish, raw Carolina Jumbo Shrimp from the grocer, nightcrawlers, crickets, and the snails that came on some plants I bought and have since multiplied and live in the sump.

I've tried a couple of different types of plants in the sump just to help with additional oxygenation and nitrate cleaning (too much is never enough, lol), but haven't been successful in this regard. The main problems have been that the plants are too fragile and shed leaves that get into the main tank. I wasn't happy with this and felt it took away from the aesthetics. I tried another type of plant and they didn't do well floating in the sump and not planted in a substrate. I can't have plants in the sand in the main tank as the fish will just uproot them and with a 30" deep tank, it's not easy to replant them.

Now, on to what has been going on in my tank for the last few months. First, I've learned an important lesson. Fish will jump out of a tank with no lid. I lost an Oscar and a Synodontus this way (both in the middle of the night). I fixed this problem by making a lid out of some 1/4" acrylic I had laying around and haven't had another jumper. Who knows why they decide to jump out, but they do. If you don't have a lid, buy one, get one, or make one. I had an outbreak of ich a few months ago as well. I had another Green Terror back then that was lost to the ich. I was able to successfully save the rest with high heat (90 degrees) and salt. Within a few days, all signs of ich were totally eradicated and it hasn't returned. I blame live feeders for this. I immediately purchased the UV Sterilizer to keep this from happening again. It has been successful so far.

Next, I'm going to relate to you how I've been successful in keeping an overstocked tank with big aggressive CA/SA cichlids with no murders. Be aware, many disagree with my stocking and methods of maximizing chances of success. Again, this is not the place to argue my stocking or methods. the bottom line is that it has worked for me so far (and I have no reason to believe it won't keep working).

My method is to keep the fishes "happy", if that's possible. I do this by feeeding them often and include live foods. I feel this keeps predatory fishes happy by allowing them to do what they do naturally. The little female jag loves the feeders so much, she'll cram up to four Rosey Reds in her mouth at once. It's funny to see a couple of different tails hangng out of her mouth wiggling.  I also keep the water warmer (82 degrees). Some reccomend colder temps to keep down aggression, I disagree. The warmer temps keep the fishes happier and increase metabolic rates allowing them to grow faster and thrive. I change a lot of water on a regular schedule to keep it super clean. I provide many holes, caves, and spots so that each fish can have a territory to call "home". All these things add up to maximizing your chances for success by minimizing the things and conditions which will make fishes unhappy wwhich will ultimately lead to frustration, "nuisance" aggression, and murders.

A lot of people won't believe me when I say there is ZERO aggression in this tank. Some will ask "what if the Parachromis breed, arent you concerned there will be aggression?". The answer is the male freddy and female loiselli have bred regularly and this hasn't changed aggression levels whatsoever. The eggs always disappear over the period of about 3 days after being laid and fertilized. I have seen the male freddy eat some of them and I suspect he and the Synodontus are responsible for their disappearance. The bottom line is there have been no murders. There is no lip locking, gill flaring, chasing, or prison yard style race riots of any kind. All these fishes seem to have a mutual respect for each other and their respective territories.

At the end of the day, and although I've been successful so far, this set up isn't for the average hobbyist. There have been a couple of problems that I've been able to learn from and improve upon (the ich and the jumping), although the learning curve is steep as I've lost a couple of good fishes as a result. This setup requires a ton of work and research to maximize your chances for success. At the end of the day, all you can do is to try to do everything possible to maximize your chances for success. There are no guarantees, things can change overnight. Fishes that get along for months on end may suddenly turn on each other. And, although this hasn't been my experience, it can and does happen. I can't over emphasize the sheer amount of time and effort involved with this kind of set up.

The bottom line is that all the hard work and effort I've put in has paid off for me by being able to observe the behavior, interaction and breeding of what I consider to be the most beautiful of the big aggressive CA/SA cichlids. It has truly been a fascinating and interesting experience. The different personalities and tank dynamics along with the beauty of all these fishes together has been the biggest reward.

Thanks for your patience in reading this. I look forward to trying to answer any questions any of you may have regarding my experiences. I am by no means an expert, but I like to pretend to be an amatuer ichthyologist, lol. 

Please remember, this is not the place for a debate on whether or not this is possible. This is also not the place to tell me "you'll have aggression sooner or later". This will only end up with my real life experiences locked and deleted so that no one may learn from my work. I'd like for this thread to last without arguing so that I'm able to update it from time to time. This way, folks can learn from whatever happens in my tank, good or bad.

Stay tuned for some new pics later tonight. Until then, here's a tank shot from a month or so ago...


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## terd ferguson

Here's a recent shot of Albie...


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## heylady

Interesting topic and a beautiful tank too!!  Your fish all look very nice...I'm a big fan of jaguars, any way to get a close up of one?? Do your male jags fight? Love your oscar too :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

Here's some shots from tonight...

Tiny...









Albie...









Captain Awesome and Lois, his ol' lady...









Red...









Teeny...









Stuart...









And a tank shot from tonight...









You can click on the pictures for a bigger image. :wink:

Thanks for looking.


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## Armandi_fishcarer

Hi terd ferguson

A well put together thread, good on you. 

What you have done & achieved is fantastic, & although there may be skeptics, it is something I enjoy doing myself. 8)

The wonderful world of fish keeping is a fun & very exciting world. It is I believe popular due to being able to change things all the time. 

Its when people actually come & see the tank setup is when they get the real shock & awe. 

Keep up the good work, god bless.

Regards Armandi :thumb:


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## Big Vine

Excellent update...glad to hear it's been working out. :thumb: 
Tank and fish look good in the pics too. You've got some nice specimens in there.

I know you mentioned something about aquatic plants not working out so well in the sump.
Would it be feasible for you to just submerge the roots of non-aquatics (such as bamboo or another tropical species which tolerates high moisture/humidity) and let them grow up and out of the sump? I know of someone over on another forum who does something similar, so I figured I'd throw the idea out there in case you haven't yet considered that as an option.

BV


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## heylady

WOW :thumb: Thanks for posting those pics....I am absolutely drooling over your jags.... 

To be fair, _all_ of your fish look good!! :wink:


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## terd ferguson

Armandi_fishcarer said:


> Hi terd ferguson
> 
> A well put together thread, good on you.
> 
> What you have done & achieved is fantastic, & although there may be skeptics, it is something I enjoy doing myself. 8)
> 
> The wonderful world of fish keeping is a fun & very exciting world. It is I believe popular due to being able to change things all the time.
> 
> Its when people actually come & see the tank setup is when they get the real shock & awe.
> 
> Keep up the good work, god bless.
> 
> Regards Armandi :thumb:


Thanks for the compliments. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

Big Vine said:


> Excellent update...glad to hear it's been working out. :thumb:
> Tank and fish look good in the pics too. You've got some nice specimens in there.
> 
> I know you mentioned something about aquatic plants not working out so well in the sump.
> Would it be feasible for you to just submerge the roots of non-aquatics (such as bamboo or another tropical species which tolerates high moisture/humidity) and let them grow up and out of the sump? I know of someone over on another forum who does something similar, so I figured I'd throw the idea out there in case you haven't yet considered that as an option.
> 
> BV


Thanks for the compliments and for the hint on the bamboo. I hadn't thought of trying that, but that's a great suggestion. I'll give it a shot and let you know how it works out. Thanks again.


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## terd ferguson

heylady said:


> WOW :thumb: Thanks for posting those pics....I am absolutely drooling over your jags....
> 
> To be fair, _all_ of your fish look good!! :wink:


Thanks a lot. :thumb:


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## shef

Nice looking tank! I really like the driftwood at the top, looks neat!


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## gage

very nice! really like the Parachromis in there


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## Big Den

Like your settup, love your style. I have a 8x2x2 with 2 jags 7", 3 green terrors 5", 3 synspilum 8" ,3 rainbow cichlids, 3 sajica, and 2 small plecs about 4 ". The rainbows spawn at least once a month. The synspilum dig huge craters all over the place. There is virtualy no aggression, just a bit of gill flaring but thats all. What do you think about the idea of adding more fish to this tank? All the occupants went in when they were all very small and seem to respect each other. I have 4 oscars in another tank 5x2x2 and was thinking of putting them in. They are odd sizes, 2 at 7" 1 at 5" and 1 at 3". I was wondering how they would get along, what do you think?


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## terd ferguson

shef said:


> Nice looking tank! I really like the driftwood at the top, looks neat!


Thanks. It wouldn't sink so t's just floating against the glass braces on top.



gage said:


> very nice! really like the Parachromis in there


Thanks. I'd really like to add a female Red Tiger Mota (Parachromis motaguense), but I haven't been able to find any local to me. If I could find one, I'd have 4 of the 5 species of Parachromis. They're really my favorite. I consider them apex predators, top of the food chain, so to speak. I'm toying with the idea of a 300g and a pair of dovii. I just don't know if I want another tank to take care of (I've already got several).


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## terd ferguson

Big Den said:


> Like your settup, love your style. I have a 8x2x2 with 2 jags 7", 3 green terrors 5", 3 synspilum 8" ,3 rainbow cichlids, 3 sajica, and 2 small plecs about 4 ". The rainbows spawn at least once a month. The synspilum dig huge craters all over the place. There is virtualy no aggression, just a bit of gill flaring but thats all. What do you think about the idea of adding more fish to this tank? All the occupants went in when they were all very small and seem to respect each other. I have 4 oscars in another tank 5x2x2 and was thinking of putting them in. They are odd sizes, 2 at 7" 1 at 5" and 1 at 3". I was wondering how they would get along, what do you think?


Thanks. The one advantage you would have in trying to add the Oscars would be the Oscars' natural behavior. They like to pal around together. This may make them less of a target to more aggressive fishes, being three fishes together (almost like a single big fish). Should you decide to add them, you should keep a close eye on the tank dynamics, watching closely for any signs of aggression, and be ready to take the neccessary actions if it goes badly.

Another thing to consider is that (I'm sure you know) Oscars are pigs and have huge appetites. This causes huge amounts of waste. You'll have to keep a close watch on your water parameters should you decide to add them. It will probably require a stepped up water change schedule and a larger volume of water changed.

The bottom line is that you know your fishes best. Be prepared for any eventuality and how to deal with it. :thumb:


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## Big Den

Thanks for that. Your right about them being pigs. While they are in the 5x2x2 I can monitor them easily. I have a eheim bucket filter on this tank with 2 other eheim 2317's. Its just that I wanted to try something else with this tank and was wondering about moving them. I was wondering how the jags would take to them. They are ok with the others but they have been with them for a year now, they have all grown together. I will post some pics when I work out how to do it.


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## jmreef

u could also try peace lilies and pothos they r used in betta bowls


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## Nighthawk

Great looking tank with an awesome stock list. :thumb: I also like the floating driftwood. Thanks for such an informative post.


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## terd ferguson

jmreef said:


> u could also try peace lilies and pothos they r used in betta bowls


Thanks for another good suggestion. I've also heard of people using mangrove trees (really small ones, lol). Anyone have any experience with those?


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## terd ferguson

Nighthawk said:


> Great looking tank with an awesome stock list. :thumb: I also like the floating driftwood. Thanks for such an informative post.


Thanks for looking and thanks for the compliments.


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## heylady

Mangroves won't last long in pure freshwater. They're usually used in marine tanks although they do well in brackish too....


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## BlackShark11k

Very nice :thumb:

I love the oscar and the big jags 8)

Art


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## terd ferguson

heylady said:


> Mangroves won't last long in pure freshwater. They're usually used in marine tanks although they do well in brackish too....


I think I'm going to try bamboo first and see how it does. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

artemis1 said:


> Very nice :thumb:
> 
> I love the oscar and the big jags 8)
> 
> Art


Thanks Art. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

Mini Update...

I finally found a good size (around 8"), nice looking Tiger Oscar to replace the one that jumped out a while back. He's got some really nice Orange. I'll try to get some photos up later today. :thumb:


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## trimac

I'm happy for you but didn't you mention that your fish got ich from live feeders-so why would you keep on using feeders if there is a chance they will get ich again?


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## trimac

Just a personal observation-I have found that tanks that are bare with hardly any caves actually have less aggression-the reason being that there isn't anything to fight over! Sounds crazy but it's true-though I do feel that cichlids are more comfortable if there is a cave.


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## terd ferguson

trimac said:


> I'm happy for you but didn't you mention that your fish got ich from live feeders-so why would you keep on using feeders if there is a chance they will get ich again?





terd ferguson said:


> Now, on to what has been going on in my tank for the last few months. First, I've learned an important lesson. Fish will jump out of a tank with no lid. I lost an Oscar and a Synodontus this way (both in the middle of the night). I fixed this problem by making a lid out of some 1/4" acrylic I had laying around and haven't had another jumper. Who knows why they decide to jump out, but they do. If you don't have a lid, buy one, get one, or make one. I had an outbreak of ich a few months ago as well. *I had another Green Terror back then that was lost to the ich. I was able to successfully save the rest with high heat (90 degrees) and salt. Within a few days, all signs of ich were totally eradicated and it hasn't returned. I blame live feeders for this. I immediately purchased the UV Sterilizer to keep this from happening again. It has been successful so far.*


You obviously still have the same reading comprehension problems from before.

*Do not ruin this thread like you did the others. This thread will last a lot longer and be alot more productive if you just stay out.*

I think you may actually be jealous. Do you remember when you said if this tank lasted a year I'd be "teh cichlid king"? Three more months to my coronation. :thumb:

***EDITED TO ADD***
For the benefit of others (trimac already knows, I've espoused my theories at great length in the other threads he's ruined)...

I offer live foods for a couple of reasons. First and most importantly, all my fishes are aggressive predatory piscavores in the wild. They are oppurtunistic feeders. It is natural for them to eat live foods. I feel as though depriving a preator of their natural predatory behavior will serve to cause frustration which will ultimately lead to "nuisance" aggression. That is, attacking each other out of frustration.

It is not my assertion that I am a magician that can make aggressive fishes non aggressive. I can only do everything possible to minimze "nuisance" aggression. And for me, this includes live foods.

Secondly, I can't prove where the ich came from. It is my theory that it did indeed come from the feeders. But, it may have been present anyway, with a weak immune system of the GT contributing to it's death.

Still, I have taken as many steps as possible to prevent a future ich outbreak (and other parasites t the same time). I keep the water conditions constantly excellent. I bought a 36 watt quality UV Sterilizer as well. I've also started breeding my own feeders rather than purchasing them from questionable retail sources.

*The most important thing to consider when thinking about live foods (besides desease concerns which I've already mentioned), is that these particlar breeds have evolved to be apex, top-of-the-food-chain predators in their natural enviornment. Just because you put them in a tiny glass cage, it doesn't change evolution and/or instinct. Just as a tiger in a zoo is still a tiger. Deprive them of their instinctual behavior and they will be frustrated and unhappy, which more likely than not will lead to problems. Just make sure you take the proper precautions to protect against desease and parasites. :thumb: *


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## terd ferguson

trimac said:


> Just a personal observation-I have found that tanks that are bare with hardly any caves actually have less aggression-the reason being that there isn't anything to fight over! Sounds crazy but it's true-though I do feel that cichlids are more comfortable if there is a cave.


It is my method and theory to not deprive aggressive fishes of anything that will make them more content and comfortable (besides keeping them in a glass cage). This includes "holes" or "houses" for each one (or pair) to have their own territory. Once territories are established, and each fish has his/her own place, there is also nothing to fight over while at the same time making the fishes more content and comfortable. This has worked well for me so far.

Besides the benefits of making the fishes more comfortable (going a long way to minimze "nuisance" aggression), bare tanks are not aesthetically pleasing to me. One of the big reasons I keep fishes is to have a little slice of nature in my home. Bare tanks, for me, are too sterile to be visually pleasing. No offense to any bare tank keepers, of course, it's just my personal preference (besides the fishes' comfort issue).


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## trimac

Let's stay away from personal insults and if someone wants to comment on a thread they should be able to-i was simply making a comment :-?


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## trimac

I disagree with your predator theory-cichlids are not all out piscivores most will accept frozen or dried food why would you put a fish at risk by feeding feeders is all I am saying. You ultim. feed your fish what you want it's your fish-I just find it odd that (you stated yourself) your GT got ich from a feeder and that doesn't deter you from using feeders in the future-and yeah I'm not a smart guy I guess all those years in boxing messed up my brain :lol: "punchy"
I'm not jealous I don't keep fish for the sake of going online and bragging about how I have this fish with this fish(not saying that you do that)-I keep fish cause I love the hobby -to be honest I like your thread and if someone questions you or calls you a liar-let it go-life is too short to get your panties in a bunch just cause you think someone is attacking you :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

trimac said:


> Let's stay away from personal insults and if someone wants to comment on a thread they should be able to-i was simply making a comment :-?


I don't think it was a personal insult to point out how you ruined two of my previous threads by misquoting me and telling outright lies. I also don't think it's a personal insult to mention your lack of fishkeeping knowledge so that others don't take your lousy advice. A couple of examples of this are when you said "my higher water temps caused the ich" (colder temps slow down the ich life cycle and will allow it to last longer in your tank) and when you ruined my Oscar R.I.P. tribute thread by saying that he "committed suicide" because he didn't like me, the water must be terrible, there was too much aggression, and I didn't care for him well enough. You were a Class A jerk in my other threads.

Or maybe it was where you went to my "home" forum at MFK and started a thread calling me out and calling me a liar when I claimed I knew dozens of guys with the same kind of stocking only to find out I was correct. Correct in that it is indeed possible and it is in fact happening in many many tanks to keep a predatory cichlid community tank?

The bottom line is you have killed many more of your fishes than I have of mine. And your misinformed posts and misinformation along with getting a 14 page thread of mine similar to this one locked and deleted (depriving forum members from gleaning valuable real life experiences in doing something out of the ordinary for this site) because of your insults have left a sour taste in my mouth. This is why you're not welcome in my thread.

Start your own thread and ruin that one. You are not welcome here.


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## illy-d

terd ferguson wrote;



> I hope this doesn't turn into another flame fest and then a lock. Keep it civil.


^Apparently you don't take your own advice - you advocate keeping it civil and then attack and flame someone who posts a legitimate question? I like your tank - but I think your attitude stinks.

Other than that I'd love to see this thread continue and I look forward to updates and especially more pictures... Also remember this is a 'forum' - a place to share ideas & insights (even when they are incongruous to your own). If you don't want feedback consider writing an article to post in the library section.


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## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> terd ferguson wrote;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope this doesn't turn into another flame fest and then a lock. Keep it civil.
> 
> 
> 
> ^Apparently you don't take your own advice - you advocate keeping it civil and then attack and flame someone who posts a legitimate question? I like your tank - but I think your attitude stinks.
> 
> Other than that I'd love to see this thread continue and I look forward to updates and especially more pictures... Also remember this is a 'forum' - a place to share ideas & insights (even when they are incongruous to your own). If you don't want feedback consider writing an article to post in the library section.
Click to expand...

I don't have anything against anyone else here but trimac. He ruined a 14 page thread of mine (along the same vein as this one) with months of work involved in it with lies and insults. That is why he is not welcome in my threads.

I am only tring to pass along information from my experiences in my tank (the same as the deleted thread). The main point sticking in my craw was that trimac called me a liar and said that I was "full of poo" (in the deleted thread and on my "home forum at MFK) if I said there was no aggression in my tank.

I'm not going to go on and on about this like last time. But if you feel like searching (here and at MFK), you'll see the jerky things and personal attacks trimac has perpetrated. This is why I've responded to him harshly and why he is not welcome in my thread. :thumb:


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## Big Den

illy-d said:


> terd ferguson wrote;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope this doesn't turn into another flame fest and then a lock. Keep it civil.
> 
> 
> 
> ^Apparently you don't take your own advice - you advocate keeping it civil and then attack and flame someone who posts a legitimate question? I like your tank - but I think your attitude stinks.
> 
> Other than that I'd love to see this thread continue and I look forward to updates and especially more pictures... Also remember this is a 'forum' - a place to share ideas & insights (even when they are incongruous to your own). If you don't want feedback consider writing an article to post in the library section.
Click to expand...

I'll second that. On first reading this thread I thought the author had some good ideas but he seems to have just got into a slanging match with someone that disagrees with him. I personally never feed live fish to my cichlids, they seem to thrive on pellets and frozen food quite well. I have kept cichlids for close on 40 years and have had hardly any problems with feeding.


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## illy-d

The point I was trying to make is that is a Forum - which means it's open for discussion regardless of whether or not it's criticism or praise.

I want to believe that your objective with this thread is to educate others by sharing your personal experiences and show that with ongoing care & attention a community tank of apex predators can succeed... But the way you flew off the handle when trimac asked why you continue to use feeders after losing a fish to disease which you felt was caused by the feeders makes me think that part of your motivation (possibly a big part) for having this discussion is to thumb your nose at trimac and basically say "I told you so". If that's the case then I think you are unintentionally undermining your own cause.

Aside from that I think that adding a UV sterilzer is a good first step in protecting your fish against infection. Another step that a lot of fishkeepers use is breeding their own live food - typically convicts and or livebearers - this way you ensure that the fish you are feeding are parasite and infection free.

For the record I was unaware of your past differences with trimac, and to be honest I couldn't care less. What I am interested in is what steps you take to make this community work - and I want to know the flipside of the coin - what are the challenges that need to be overcome if I want to try something like this in the future? To properly appreciate the task you are trying to accomplish I need to hear both sides of the argument. So I truly hope that this thread can continue - in a civilized manner.


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## terd ferguson

Big Den said:


> illy-d said:
> 
> 
> 
> terd ferguson wrote;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope this doesn't turn into another flame fest and then a lock. Keep it civil.
> 
> 
> 
> ^Apparently you don't take your own advice - you advocate keeping it civil and then attack and flame someone who posts a legitimate question? I like your tank - but I think your attitude stinks.
> 
> Other than that I'd love to see this thread continue and I look forward to updates and especially more pictures... Also remember this is a 'forum' - a place to share ideas & insights (even when they are incongruous to your own). If you don't want feedback consider writing an article to post in the library section.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'll second that. On first reading this thread I thought the author had some good ideas but he seems to have just got into a slanging match with someone that disagrees with him. I personally never feed live fish to my cichlids, they seem to thrive on pellets and frozen food quite well. I have kept cichlids for close on 40 years and have had hardly any problems with feeding.
Click to expand...

Look, the problem here is not that I 'disagree' with someone here. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Most here disagree with my stocking philosophy. That is, the same theory as is espoused here in keeping aggression in check by overstocking African cichlids. I'm doing the same thing with CA/SA's. The difference is I'm not telling everyone who does it differently that they're a liar (as trimac has done).

The problem I have is with trimac. This is because I had a 14 page thread with months of work recorded in it only to get deleted because of the actions of trimac. He lied, insulted me, called me a liar, said I was "full of poo", gave bad fishkeeping advice, said I was wrong if I thought I could successfully keep aggressive cichlids together with no murders at the same time he was trying the same thing and experiencing murders in his tanks and doing nothing to avert them, and I could go on and on.

In short, he ruined months of my work by being a jerk. And at the same time, kept others from being able to learn from my successes or failures by having the thread deleted because of his posts. There are those who have posted in this thread who remember the 14 page jag thread I'm refering to. It can't be accessed now as it was deleted by a mod friendly to trimac.

For the last time, this is why I've responded harshly to trimac posting in this thread. At the end of the day, I am doing something not readily accepted here (and almost frowned upon). That is, overstocking big aggressive CA/SA cichlids. Many believe it can't be done. When I tell them it goes on on a regular basis at sties like MFK, trimac called me a liar. Not only that, but he started a thread at MFK calling me out and calling me a liar and saying that I was "full of poo" only to quickly find out there were in fact dozens of tanks with the same kind of stocking. I only want to impart my experiences in how it can work and how it has worked for me.

*This thread is not to be considered advice. It is not to be considered asking for advice. It is to record my work and hopefully help those who may benefit from the information i'm providing. It is not for saying "you can't claim success for x number of years" (one of the problems in the old thread). It is not for saying "your fishes will eventually murder each other when they get to x benchmark (6", sexual maturity, breeding, an endless amount of time)". It is not for saying my old Oscar "committed suicide" (trimac posted this) for a retarded reason. These are just some of the things trimac did which ended up causing the old thread to be deleted. *

I claim success as I see it. Nine months with these big aggressive fishes together and not only no murders, but no aggressive behavior. For me, that's as successful as it gets. But, I will continue to update this from time to time with my successes and failures (as I did in the old thread) in the hopes of dispelling the conventional wisdom that says you can't keep these fishes together without a prison yard race riot on a daily basis.

That is why he (and he alone) is not welcome in this thread.


----------



## DMWave45

I assume you are buying the feeders from a LFS or something right now right? I was just wondering if you have considered breeding your own feeders to eliminate the ich or parasite possibilities. If not, it might be something to try. And if someone already mentioned this then nvm.
Also I really like that driftwood hanging at the top, looks great. Something I will most likely try in my next tank, (oscars).
Stuart looks like a real stunner :thumb:


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## Big Den

Personally, I like this thread because its what I do, less the feeders. I keep 2 jags, 3 green terrors and 3 synspilum in a 200 uk gallon tank along with 3 rainbow cichlids and 3 sajica. The tank is full of bogwood and rocks with java fern dotted about. The rainbows spawn frequently, the jags are at the moment digging a huge crater at one end. The synspilum are doing likewise at the other end. There is the occasional flare up, which I would expect, but no real malice. I have had this settup now for 14 months with no casualties. The rainbows at this moment are spawning on a rock right in the middle, driving off the gt's at the same time. Life goes on.


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## Toby_H

I have no public opinion on the relationship between Mr Ferguson and Mr Trimac 

Adding a UV light at proper flow rates will make a world of difference at protecting yourself from parasitic threatsâ€¦ I believe this is the short simple response to Mr Trimacs initial concern to continuing to use feedersâ€¦

I also believe you stated you are or are working on breeding your own feedersâ€¦ yet another fact that can alleviate concernsâ€¦

FYI - Iâ€™ve used feeder guppies from Frank N Pegs off and on over the years with no ill effects. The woman who supplies them is said to be anal about both water quality and avoiding excessive inbreedingâ€¦ both of these leave her fish more resistant to illnesses and less likely to bring them to your tankâ€¦ and the little they may bring should be irradiated by your UV lightâ€¦

PS - I saw your old Jag when I was there a short while backâ€¦ that thing was a monster 

PPS - Your Dempsey is still doing greatâ€¦ I have the offspring from her I wantedâ€¦ but Iâ€™m killing myself getting the new house & Fishroom set upâ€¦ as soon as time allows Iâ€™ll be bringing her back homeâ€¦ and Iâ€™m looking forward to seeing this oh so controversial tank myselfâ€¦


----------



## illy-d

I realize that you are doing something that is often dismissed as impossible in all but the largest of tanks - which is why I am so interested!

I would like to know the following;

- How big were the fish when you introduced them into this tank - you mention 9 months is the age of the set-up; but I have to presume your big fish are older than this.

- Did you introduce the fish all at the same time? If not what was the order?

- Have you tried floating plants? Either in your main tank or sump? I have had great success using Pennywort (letting it float) as a nutrient sponge... I also find the 'subdued' light created when the pennywort takes over the entire top of the tank made my fish less shy/skittish (my JD especially appreciated the subdued lighting).

- Thank you to nutcase for the info regarding the uv sterilizer. Is there a recommended flow rate or GPH to consider when buying a uv light? I've never had a UV light so I don't know what they are all about - are there things they don't protect against? Do you still have to QT new fish if you use a UV?

I'll have more questions as we go!

Cheers,

Daryl


----------



## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> The point I was trying to make is that is a Forum - which means it's open for discussion regardless of whether or not it's criticism or praise.
> 
> I want to believe that your objective with this thread is to educate others by sharing your personal experiences and show that with ongoing care & attention a community tank of apex predators can succeed... But the way you flew off the handle when trimac asked why you continue to use feeders after losing a fish to disease which you felt was caused by the feeders makes me think that part of your motivation (possibly a big part) for having this discussion is to thumb your nose at trimac and basically say "I told you so". If that's the case then I think you are unintentionally undermining your own cause.
> 
> Aside from that I think that adding a UV sterilzer is a good first step in protecting your fish against infection. Another step that a lot of fishkeepers use is breeding their own live food - typically convicts and or livebearers - this way you ensure that the fish you are feeding are parasite and infection free.
> 
> For the record I was unaware of your past differences with trimac, and to be honest I couldn't care less. What I am interested in is what steps you take to make this community work - and I want to know the flipside of the coin - what are the challenges that need to be overcome if I want to try something like this in the future? To properly appreciate the task you are trying to accomplish I need to hear both sides of the argument. So I truly hope that this thread can continue - in a civilized manner.


I've stated my piece on trimac and will try to get this thread back on track (it's not what he said in this thread, but ALL the things he said in the other one that got it deleted, again, months of work disappeared). But, to suffice it to say, this is not "nose thumbing", rather an honest effort to share what I've learned, both good and bad. :thumb:

Now (and hopefully from now on) back to business. If you'll read back, you'll see I started a breeding project for a less questionable food supply.

As far as what hurdles you have to jump to be successful at this, the list is long. Conventional wisdom says it just isn't possible for very long. For me, going against conventional wisdom is what has made it possible. For instance, live feeders, warmer water, same species males kept together, allowing breeding to occur, feeding heavy and often, etc.. All of these things, according to conventional wisdom should only serve to _increase_ aggression. But, this hasn't been my experience.

In fact, it's had the opposite effect (unless I'm magic or just really, really lucky, lol). My tank is extremely peaceful, which, in turn, makes it beautiful to watch. I'm not trying to 'educate', because I'm not an expert by any means, only hoping to help by imparting my experiences with this and the theories and methods that got me where I am.

Some would say I can't yet claim success (no murdering) and some would go even further to say I'll never be able to claim success because sooner or later, one of my fishes will murder another fish. And then, "I told you so". I claim success as I see it. I've experienced nine months together with big giant aggressive cichlids (some of _the_ most aggressive) sharing the same tank, breeding, with no murders, no gill flaring, no lip locking, no biting, no chasing, no false charges, no squaring off, no torpedo attacks, no scars, no missing scales, etc... Not only that, but my fishes are beautiful, healthy, growing and thriving. That's about as successful as one can get in my book. I see no indications (behavioral or otherwise) that this trend won't continue. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

nc_nutcase said:


> I have no public opinion on the relationship between Mr Ferguson and Mr Trimac
> 
> Adding a UV light at proper flow rates will make a world of difference at protecting yourself from parasitic threatsâ€¦ I believe this is the short simple response to Mr Trimacs initial concern to continuing to use feedersâ€¦
> 
> I also believe you stated you are or are working on breeding your own feedersâ€¦ yet another fact that can alleviate concernsâ€¦
> 
> FYI - Iâ€™ve used feeder guppies from Frank N Pegs off and on over the years with no ill effects. The woman who supplies them is said to be anal about both water quality and avoiding excessive inbreedingâ€¦ both of these leave her fish more resistant to illnesses and less likely to bring them to your tankâ€¦ and the little they may bring should be irradiated by your UV lightâ€¦
> 
> PS - I saw your old Jag when I was there a short while backâ€¦ that thing was a monster
> 
> PPS - Your Dempsey is still doing greatâ€¦ I have the offspring from her I wantedâ€¦ but Iâ€™m killing myself getting the new house & Fishroom set upâ€¦ as soon as time allows Iâ€™ll be bringing her back homeâ€¦ and Iâ€™m looking forward to seeing this oh so controversial tank myselfâ€¦


For the record, I can't prove the feeders introduced ich. It may have been a genetically weak Green Terror already with ich (not showing visible symptoms). Another GT that I got from the same store (in another tank) pooped out his swim bladder. 

And no worries about the JD, I know she's in good hands. :thumb:


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## Big Vine

Let's get a few things straight.
Terd...you can express your opinion about not wanting certain member(s) to post in your thread(s), but it doesn't mean they have to listen. By the same token, it doesn't mean you have to keep responding to them either.

And this goes for everyone...
Please leave it up to the mods/admins to decide whether or not the content of people's posts are crossing the line or not.

BV


----------



## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> I realize that you are doing something that is often dismissed as impossible in all but the largest of tanks - which is why I am so interested!
> 
> I would like to know the following;
> 
> - How big were the fish when you introduced them into this tank - you mention 9 months is the age of the set-up; but I have to presume your big fish are older than this.
> 
> - Did you introduce the fish all at the same time? If not what was the order?
> 
> - Have you tried floating plants? Either in your main tank or sump? I have had great success using Pennywort (letting it float) as a nutrient sponge... I also find the 'subdued' light created when the pennywort takes over the entire top of the tank made my fish less shy/skittish (my JD especially appreciated the subdued lighting).
> 
> - Thank you to nutcase for the info regarding the uv sterilizer. Is there a recommended flow rate or GPH to consider when buying a uv light? I've never had a UV light so I don't know what they are all about - are there things they don't protect against? Do you still have to QT new fish if you use a UV?
> 
> I'll have more questions as we go!
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Daryl


Daryl,

I'll answer your questions as best as I can.

- How big were the fish when you introduced them into this tank - you mention 9 months is the age of the set-up; but I have to presume your big fish are older than this.


The fishes were all different sizes when introduced and some were introduced together at the beginning and the rest singly as i found proper examples. Some were introduced as near fry size, some juveniles, and some adults.

- Did you introduce the fish all at the same time? If not what was the order?

This is the best order I can remember. They were not all introduced at the same time. The originals were introduced at the same time in a 55 as I was readying the big tank. These originals include a Jack Dempsey female (about 5"+, now on loan to nc_nutcase for breeding), a tiny (about 1") Tiger Oscar (the one that jumped). He was about 10" or so at death, a Green Terror male (about 2"), another Green Terror male (about 1 1/2", the one that died from ich), female Loiselli (about 4"), synodontus (about 4"), and a tiny petsmart jag (less than 1").

Then the move to the big tank after about 3 months. Shortly after, I began seeking out proper examples of the rest of my fishes on my wish list and aquired them as they became available, one at a time (during the span of about a month or so). First I think was Toby's festae (nc_nutcase) at about 5", big jag tiny (about 10"+), the freddy and the smaller male jag on the same day (both about 8" or so), and then another synodontus.

About 6 months ago was when the ich hit and I lost the one GT. A few weeks (?) later the Tiger O jumped. Right before he jumped, about 3 months ago I found a big Albino Tiger Oscar (about 10") I couldn't pass up. Right after this was when the original Tiger Oscar jumped out. I got another synodontus around the same time mainly for clean up duties, those Oscar's are messy eaters. Yesterday, I finally found a big enough and nice enough Tiger O to replace the one that jumped. The original Tiger O and the Albino became such good pals so quickly (and he seemed to mope at the loss of his buddy), I had to get another (today, finally).

My time frame and/or order may be slightly off here and there, but that's the gist. Different sizes at different times, some together.

- Have you tried floating plants? Either in your main tank or sump? I have had great success using Pennywort (letting it float) as a nutrient sponge... I also find the 'subdued' light created when the pennywort takes over the entire top of the tank made my fish less shy/skittish (my JD especially appreciated the subdued lighting).


I have not tried any plants, floating or otherwise, in the main tank. The constant sand re-arranging prevents them from staying planted. The 30" depth of the tank makes it difficult to replant. I feel that floating plants in the main tank (although I'd love to have some) would just clog up the overflow box drain.

I've tried a couple of different types of plants in the sump (although their neames escape me at the moment) with mixed results. The first, while growing well and flourishing, had fragile "leaves" (more like hairs) that would constantly shed and get into the main tank. This was ugly and unacceptable for me. So the plants went into my pond. The second with stronger leaves, didn't grow well and started to die off. So, it went into the pond as well.

I feel you can never really have too much filtration, so I'm still looking at options for something in the sump. A couple of people have suggested bamboo and I may give that a shot. I need something that won't shed leaves and will grow under Flourescent light decently (I've got a seperate light under the stand, over my sump, twin tubes something like 40 watts).

- Thank you to nutcase for the info regarding the uv sterilizer. Is there a recommended flow rate or GPH to consider when buying a uv light? I've never had a UV light so I don't know what they are all about - are there things they don't protect against? Do you still have to QT new fish if you use a UV?


I run my Coralife Turbo Twist 36 Watt UV Sterilizer with a Magnum H.O.T. canister filter (about 250 gph). Usually, the slower the flow, the better. This allows the water to have a longer exposure to the UV light. The "turbo twist" spiral helps in this regard as well. They are very effective at killing free floating algea and desease causing micro organisms. That is, if you choose the right size UV and the correct flow to complement your tank.

However, they are not magic. They can't replace sound procedures like quarateening new fishes, but rather complement them. It's just one more safety valve, so to speak.

I hope that answered your questions. If it hasn't or you have any more, ask away. :thumb:


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## trimac

Wow! Terd-it's funny people-if we were sitting here face to face would you use that same type of language with me in person-doubt it-anyways I have had disagr. with many on this forum and still had respect for them-for example years back Fishguy and I disagreed on identification on a fish-so what-people are allowed to disagree--but it seems like you take it to a whole different level-anyways I actually like your set-up-just lose the hostility :?


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## terd ferguson

trimac said:


> Wow! Terd-it's funny people-if we were sitting here face to face would you use that same type of language with me in person-doubt it-anyways I have had disagr. with many on this forum and still had respect for them-for example years back Fishguy and I disagreed on identification on a fish-so what-people are allowed to disagree--but it seems like you take it to a whole different level-anyways I actually like your set-up-just lose the hostility :?


Trust me, I wouldn't type anything I wouldn't also say in person. And it's not that we disagree. I disagree with many respectfully on the interweb. I tried disagreeing with you respectfully as well in the past. But that didn't work. You called me a liar, started a thread on another forum that said I was "full of poo", accused my fish of "committing suicide", gave out bad fishkeeping advice, etc....

There's a difference between respectfully disagreeing and what you did that ended up in months of my work deleted. It's as simple as that. I wish the other thread had not been deleted not only because of my lost work, but to shine the light on your behavior so that all who missed the thread could see your true atitude. :thumb:

[forrest gump]And that's all I've got to say about that[/forrest gump]


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## sweetsummerrose

Hello. I must say me and my husband thoroughly enjoyed reading your post. We stock africans and CA-SA. We have a jaguar, jack dempsey,green terror,midas,and two convicts in a 125 gallon. So far we have had minimal aggression also, but we all know it could change. We have recently also started feeding feeders, due to my africans breeding all the time  , I think they thrive on being able to be the predator they are. I also have always had my tank temps at 82 degrees, plus feed my fish 2-3 times a day also. I wont draw this out, but I just wanted you to know how interesting and informative we found your thread to be, so thank you.


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## illy-d

I've never had a tank with an overflow box so you could be right about the plants jamming it up... I had pennywort floating in my 135 that had an AC 110 (later an AC 70 when the 110 got too noisey), and XP3, and a Fluval 305 - I found when I first put it in it got pushed around the tank and would get pushed to the bottom by the AC... SO what I did was keep a single strand of the plant about 14" long and I hooked it behind my heater cord - this little anchor held it fast and it quickly grew into this;










If you can get your hands on some you may be pleased with the result! I bought it purely for nutrient absorption and ended up liking the look of it! Here's more info here;
http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/plant ... nywort.htm

Thanks for answering my questions above.
Cheers,

D

PS: post more pics! :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

sweetsummerrose said:


> Hello. I must say me and my husband thoroughly enjoyed reading your post. We stock africans and CA-SA. We have a jaguar, jack dempsey,green terror,midas,and two convicts in a 125 gallon. So far we have had minimal aggression also, but we all know it could change. We have recently also started feeding feeders, due to my africans breeding all the time  , I think they thrive on being able to be the predator they are. I also have always had my tank temps at 82 degrees, plus feed my fish 2-3 times a day also. I wont draw this out, but I just wanted you to know how interesting and informative we found your thread to be, so thank you.


You're welcome and thank you for reading. Good luck with your tanks as well. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> I've never had a tank with an overflow box so you could be right about the plants jamming it up... I had pennywort floating in my 135 that had an AC 110 (later an AC 70 when the 110 got too noisey), and XP3, and a Fluval 305 - I found when I first put it in it got pushed around the tank and would get pushed to the bottom by the AC... SO what I did was keep a single strand of the plant about 14" long and I hooked it behind my heater cord - this little anchor held it fast and it quickly grew into this;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you can get your hands on some you may be pleased with the result! I bought it purely for nutrient absorption and ended up liking the look of it! Here's more info here;
> http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/plant ... nywort.htm
> 
> Thanks for answering my questions above.
> Cheers,
> 
> D
> 
> PS: post more pics! :thumb:


That looks really nice and I'm sure it looks even better in person. The only thing stopping me from the same kind of floating setup is the overflow box and the return. My pump is flowing 1,500 gph. This water flows through the box (basically three sides of a rectangle) with a perimeter of only about 24". That same 1,500 gph comes back into the tank throught a 1 1/2" return line near the surface (for more surface agitation). That's a bunch of water moving around the surface, both in and out. I think this would wreak havoc with any kind of floating plant in the main tank. But thanks for the suggestion just the same.

Also, I think the pennywort you described is the second plant I tried in my sump (maybe it was moneywort?). That was the one that didn't shed leaves, but also started dying off. It's doing great in my pond though.

I'm sure if I put enough effort into searching, I could find something to attach to the driftwood, like anubias. They seem to do really well planted in my African tank. But, I think I'd rather just have a good water scrubbing plant in my sump to make everything easier.

I finally found the name of the first plant that grew like crazy in the sump, but shed too many leaves. It was hornwort.


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## TheOscarGuy

Great post, Terd! I really enjoyed reading through it and seeing all the pics. as I went through. I would say you have a tank most cichlid-holics would like to have (well, atleast I would), but can't due to aggression issues. Good job on the tank.

I didn't see any dithers - do you have any at all in this tank?


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## terd ferguson

TheOscarGuy said:


> Great post, Terd! I really enjoyed reading through it and seeing all the pics. as I went through. I would say you have a tank most cichlid-holics would like to have (well, atleast I would), but can't due to aggression issues. Good job on the tank.
> 
> I didn't see any dithers - do you have any at all in this tank?


Thanks for the compliments. Dithers aren't a part of my philosophy in keeping these fishes together. For me, a fish designed to be murdered or chased to death isn't a good option. In my opinion, it will only serve to encourage "nuisance" aggression towards tankmates, which is what I'm trying to avoid. And unlike live feeders, for instance, it's like you're training the fishes to murder tankmates (versus killing for food).

But, I don't have any paperwork to back that up. 

Keep in mind, these are just my theories and methodology that has given me good results. I know others who use dithers successfully (if you don't mind losing fishes, I don't like to lose fishes). I also know others who don't use dithers and that works for them. Each tank is it's own little world. What works for one may not work for another. The individual fishes' personalities are also a big part of the equation. With this kind of setup, you have to consider all the variables. The more variables you can make work for you instead of against you, the better your chances of success...

...or that can all be ruined by one fish having a bad day and going on a rampage. I've seen that happen on the forums as well. But, thanks again for the compliments.


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## trimac

Terd-actually no you wouldn't say that to me in person cause you would know of the consequences-so it's easy for you to do it on a forum cause I can't physically do anything :lol: 
I did in other forum state a statement you made was full of caca-one being you tried to say that CA/SA are just like Africans-not true-what you have done is rare and I would not recommend anyone to try what you have done-has it been a year? No do you know that many cichlids can live anywhere between 5-10 years yet you haven't even had these fish for one year-just wait-I had 5 cichlids in a 1000 gallon pond for two and half years-one day the RD decided to kill everyone-so be happy with your set up but don't claim success over 9 months. You claim I have killed many fish-what were you at my home??? Not only that look at what happened to me in a 1000 gallon pond --What do you think might happen with your stock! Not only that I opened a thread titled "how do you stock your tank"-and personally PM'd you so you could give your side and why you thought an overstocked tank could work-anyways I will be posting pics of my 240 gallon grow out tank that has an Umbee and Dovii-I feel that people don't take me seriously cause I have never left pics of my tank-but that will change on Saturday.


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## Big Vine

terd ferguson & trimac,

It would be a gross understatement to say that we are beating a dead horse here.

The two of you need to give it a rest now.
I'm getting sick and tired of all the pi$$ing and moaning from both sides. Folks already have enough 'caca' to have to wade through with the two of you bickering. You are both derailing what has the makings of a fantastic, informative thread.

BV


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## DMWave45

Agreed BV. It's a really nice thread besides the bickering


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## terd ferguson

Big Vine said:


> terd ferguson & trimac,
> 
> It would be a gross understatement to say that we are beating a dead horse here.
> 
> The two of you need to give it a rest now.
> I'm getting sick and tired of all the pi$$ing and moaning from both sides. Folks already have enough 'caca' to have to wade through with the two of you bickering. You are both derailing what has the makings of a fantastic, informative thread.
> 
> BV


I've said all I'm going to say about trimac. Please help me get this thread on track so it doesn't get ruined. Feel free to remove anything you feel necessary that wouldn't include actual informative posts.:thumb:

Understand though, it's hard not to respond to straight up lies and veiled threats like his last post.


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## cage623

I just want to say that I have been reading this thread for a few days now and have enjoyed most of it. I think is very interesting to see the success that you have had with this tank. I also really like this quote by you, Turd: 


> Each tank is it's own little world. What works for one may not work for another. The individual fishes' personalities are also a big part of the equation. With this kind of setup, you have to consider all the variables. The more variables you can make work for you instead of against you, the better your chances of success...


I totally agree with this statement.

Having said this I also aree with BV, 


> terd ferguson & trimac,
> 
> It would be a gross understatement to say that we are beating a dead horse here.
> 
> The two of you need to give it a rest now.


I have enjoyed reading this post and don't want it to also end up being deleted. I guess I like this tread because many people would also say that my tank "in theory" would not work. You can see what I keep in my signature. Although I don't have anywhere near the stock list that you have, most would say that my fish wouldn't not work in that tank for long. I have had them in that for around 5 years now with little to no aggression. I hope that your tank continues to thrive and the same for this post. Thanks for sharing with us all.


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## illy-d

If you get spawning from either the Jags or the Freddy/Loiselle that make it to the wriggler or free swimming stage do you have a plan for dealing with the fry? ie. let the parents try to raise them, or syphon them off to use as feeders later, or grow some up etc?

I know a lot of people get sensitive when it comes to hybrids - but personally I think it's kind of neat to see how they turn out (I don't think they should be marketed or even given away however).


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## trimac

Alright here is what doesn't add up I had a buddy of mine PM me on all of your past threads and I did a little research and something does not add up
1. You asked about starting up an African tank in August of 2007 (55gallon) Questions steming from filtration to types of fish-I found that kind of odd coming from someone who has pulled off what a lot of us couldn't.
2. You purchased your 190 gallon tank on October-which means it would be 6 months to this day-That is if you didn't let your water cycle-which you obvoiously didn't because you showed us Pics of a RT you stated that you purchased on October 22-so how could you have had these fish for almost a year-most of the fish you have you bought at medium to large size-and this is not coming from me but other people on this forum-it just doesn't add up-I'm happy your tank is doing well-but you make it sound as if you raised all these fish from juvis and have had this peace and tranquility for almost a year-which isn't even a lot of time when you are dealing with these type of fish-anyways I don't want to sabotage your thread-obviously a lot of people like what you are doing so with that said god bless and good luck!


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## heylady

Give it a rest Trimac. If you want to have a peeing contest with Terd, us the PM function, _please_.

I find this thread interesting. But then I've always been interested in different ways to do things.

Terd, have you ever thought about using an algae scrubber? Not very common in the hobby, more often used on the saltwater side, but it does work and even though it sounds like you'd be putting algae into your system, the opposite is actually true. It helps to keep it out. 
Check on-line to find out some information. 
I can't tell you how to make a really nice one for your tank but I can tell you what I've done with my saltwater tank...it's a cheap DIY didn't-cost-a-thing algae scrubber. I use an HOB filter on this tank. Right underneath the overflow part I have wedged a plastic lid from a regular food container. This sits right near my lights (which are on legs) and hair algae grows on this lid. The water returning from the filter passes right over the algae, they are very near the lights and I don't have a speck of algae in my tank. When the algae starts to grow too big, I remove it but I don't clean the lid. The algae regrows which of course, uses up any excess nutrients. The important parts are lights that are suspended above the algae so they get plenty of light, and a good flow passing right over them. Hope I explained that right. I need to mention that this lid is angled so that the water flows right over the whole thing before returning to the tank. I really should try and get a pic of it, my son has the phone right now so I will try later. 
Anyway, I haven't tried this on any of my fresh tanks only because I'm not using an HOB filter on any of them!
Something to think about.


----------



## terd ferguson

cage623 said:


> I just want to say that I have been reading this thread for a few days now and have enjoyed most of it. I think is very interesting to see the success that you have had with this tank. I also really like this quote by you, Turd:
> 
> 
> 
> Each tank is it's own little world. What works for one may not work for another. The individual fishes' personalities are also a big part of the equation. With this kind of setup, you have to consider all the variables. The more variables you can make work for you instead of against you, the better your chances of success...
> 
> 
> 
> I totally agree with this statement.
> 
> Having said this I also aree with BV,
> 
> 
> 
> terd ferguson & trimac,
> 
> It would be a gross understatement to say that we are beating a dead horse here.
> 
> The two of you need to give it a rest now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have enjoyed reading this post and don't want it to also end up being deleted. I guess I like this tread because many people would also say that my tank "in theory" would not work. You can see what I keep in my signature. Although I don't have anywhere near the stock list that you have, most would say that my fish wouldn't not work in that tank for long. I have had them in that for around 5 years now with little to no aggression. I hope that your tank continues to thrive and the same for this post. Thanks for sharing with us all.
Click to expand...

Thanks for reading and I apologize for the thread getting off track. I know that can be distracting. I'm trying to not let it happen again. Thanks again for reading. Stay tuned, I have some big plans for this thread.


----------



## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> If you get spawning from either the Jags or the Freddy/Loiselle that make it to the wriggler or free swimming stage do you have a plan for dealing with the fry? ie. let the parents try to raise them, or syphon them off to use as feeders later, or grow some up etc?
> 
> I know a lot of people get sensitive when it comes to hybrids - but personally I think it's kind of neat to see how they turn out (I don't think they should be marketed or even given away however).


I hope the pair (now pairs, stay tuned for a jag pairing update soon) will eventually stop eating their eggs. I do have plans for if they get to the wriggler stage. And technically speaking, they won't be hybrids. That is, the male Parachromis friedrichsthalli is more than likely actually a loiselli. I'm about 90% sure of this. Body shape and head shapes are the main clues here to it's true identity (more of a football shape rather than elongated like a managuense). There was a big discussion on this specific topic and my specific fish on MFK and the general consensus of experts who know far more than me is that it's a male loiselli. On a side note and believe it or not, I ordered a jaguar and got the male freddy/and/or/loiselli.

And, I know that hybrids are frowned upon here and am not trying to argue the merits of hybrids or the reasons why they should be culled. Long story short, hybrids occur in the wild with fishes just like they do with people. One of the most beautiful fishes I've ever seen has been a managuense/motaguense hybrid. It's not my place to decide which side is right or wrong and I'm not really on either side of the issue.

With that said, I'll probably just let nature take it's course. I've got enough tanks to care for now with an even bigger one in the works (hint, hint, stay tuned for this too). If any fry survive, I'll trade them at the LFS since they won't be hybrids.

Thanks again for reading and stay tuned for a big update very soon. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

heylady said:


> Give it a rest Trimac. If you want to have a peeing contest with Terd, us the PM function, _please_.
> 
> I find this thread interesting. But then I've always been interested in different ways to do things.
> 
> Terd, have you ever thought about using an algae scrubber? Not very common in the hobby, more often used on the saltwater side, but it does work and even though it sounds like you'd be putting algae into your system, the opposite is actually true. It helps to keep it out.
> Check on-line to find out some information.
> I can't tell you how to make a really nice one for your tank but I can tell you what I've done with my saltwater tank...it's a cheap DIY didn't-cost-a-thing algae scrubber. I use an HOB filter on this tank. Right underneath the overflow part I have wedged a plastic lid from a regular food container. This sits right near my lights (which are on legs) and hair algae grows on this lid. The water returning from the filter passes right over the algae, they are very near the lights and I don't have a speck of algae in my tank. When the algae starts to grow too big, I remove it but I don't clean the lid. The algae regrows which of course, uses up any excess nutrients. The important parts are lights that are suspended above the algae so they get plenty of light, and a good flow passing right over them. Hope I explained that right. I need to mention that this lid is angled so that the water flows right over the whole thing before returning to the tank. I really should try and get a pic of it, my son has the phone right now so I will try later.
> Anyway, I haven't tried this on any of my fresh tanks only because I'm not using an HOB filter on any of them!
> Something to think about.


Being that I have zero experience with salt water, I can't say that I've ever used an algea scrubber. I am also not familiar with it's use in fresh water. But with the way you've described it, it makes total sense how it works and why.

I am trying to subscribe to the same theory with plants in the sump. I'm just trying out different kinds of plants until I find the right one for my needs. I'll check into your algea scrubber idea and talk to my salt water friends to see if they have any experience with it as well.

The only question I would have regarding the algea scrubber as described would be "How much can actually be scrubbed with such a small colony of algae (food sized container lid)?". Or, "Have you noticed a difference in your nitrite/nitrate levels before you added the algae scrubber versus afterwards?".

Thanks again for the excellent tip though. I'm going to look into it further and eagerly await you to share more of your experiences with this. :thumb:


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## heylady

Take into consideration that this is a small scrubber and since this is a saltwater tank I have to keep my nitrates low to begin with. I feed every other day rather than daily and the bioload is not very high with only 4 fish. Having said that, before I did this, the tank (75g), used to have nitrates of about 10 sometimes higher and now has a steady 0.
I would think that a larger unit would be able to provide better results...


----------



## illy-d

I think having 2 breeding pairs in the tank is one of those events that could upset your balance - I hope I'm wrong, I hope it works out and the balance in your tank continues, But it has been my experience that multiple breeding pairs are harder to 'manage' than a single pair!

My tenant has 1 breeding pair of JD's and 2 breeding pairs of convicts in a 90g tank and he experiences massive aggression problems every single month... The 3 pairs spawn regularly - like a cycle; 1st the regular convicts, next month the pink convicts, 3rd month the JD's... The pair that is breeding controls the tank and absolutely beats on the other fish... I've convinced him to get rid of the female convicts when he moves and replace them with 2 males if he absolutely has to have 4 convicts in the tank... It's my feeling that the males will lose a lot of their 'fight' without females present and stay out of the JD's way...

I can understand where Trimac is coming from when he says that 9 months isn't a long time in the life of these fish and it could be a little premature to be claiming success - however, I think breeding is going to be one of those make or break type incidents - and if you can manage that I think it you will be overcoming a major, major hurdle!

I'm crossing my fingers for you and I hope to see those updates soon! (post pictures too as your Jags are beauties!).


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## terd ferguson

heylady said:


> Take into consideration that this is a small scrubber and since this is a saltwater tank I have to keep my nitrates low to begin with. I feed every other day rather than daily and the bioload is not very high with only 4 fish. Having said that, before I did this, the tank (75g), used to have nitrates of about 10 sometimes higher and now has a steady 0.
> I would think that a larger unit would be able to provide better results...


That's fascinating to hear that it would work so well even taking into account few fishes with few feedings. I'm going to do some research on this and see if it's feasible for my set up. Would you mind if I PM you if I have any further specific questions? Thanks very much in advance. :thumb:

Cheers,
Kevin (terd ferguson, here and everywhere)


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## illy-d

^ IN regards to heylady's algae scrubber idea I know a few people that grow riccia on top of their aqua clear filter sponges... Probably similar idea to the algae scrubber...


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## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> I think having 2 breeding pairs in the tank is one of those events that could upset your balance - I hope I'm wrong, I hope it works out and the balance in your tank continues, But it has been my experience that multiple breeding pairs are harder to 'manage' than a single pair!
> 
> My tenant has 1 breeding pair of JD's and 2 breeding pairs of convicts in a 90g tank and he experiences massive aggression problems every single month... The 3 pairs spawn regularly - like a cycle; 1st the regular convicts, next month the pink convicts, 3rd month the JD's... The pair that is breeding controls the tank and absolutely beats on the other fish... I've convinced him to get rid of the female convicts when he moves and replace them with 2 males if he absolutely has to have 4 convicts in the tank... It's my feeling that the males will lose a lot of their 'fight' without females present and stay out of the JD's way...
> 
> I can understand where Trimac is coming from when he says that 9 months isn't a long time in the life of these fish and it could be a little premature to be claiming success - however, I think breeding is going to be one of those make or break type incidents - and if you can manage that I think it you will be overcoming a major, major hurdle!
> 
> I'm crossing my fingers for you and I hope to see those updates soon! (post pictures too as your Jags are beauties!).


I understand what you're saying and agree with all of it. I feel that the parents having so far gotten rid of their eggs has gone a long way to reduce any breeding aggression. So far is the operative phrase here. I would be lying if I said I wasn't concerned about another breeding pair in this same tank.

My original plans didn't include a pair of breeding jags. This kind of happened by accident. When I was first starting out with this tank, the idea was to have one or two male jags. I bought a tiny jag from petsmart (this is the small female who is now cozying up to Teeny, the middle sized jag). My hopes were to get a nice male. After this, I found a nice bigger male (Tiny) and rescued him from a tiny tank in an LFS. He had been traded in for being "too mean". After that, I found Teeny in an LFS that was closing. He had more purple than I'd ever seen in a jag, so I bought him too.

So, long story short, in the last month or so, it has become apparant that this small jag is female and in the last day that she's exhibiting pre-breeding behavior. I am watching cautiously for now, waiting to see what happens. At the same time, I am prepared for any issues that may arrive with a prepared new home for the small female jag should it become neccessary.

Tiny is what the deleted thread was about. I had started that thread to have a record of the trials and tribulations that is keeping a tank like this with sometimes daily and sometimes weekly and sometimes monthly updates. It just got derailed.

I have the same plans for this thread. Good or bad, it all goes in here. That's what I think makes these kind of threads so interesting.


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## FiremouthShogun

I'm shocked your fish don't display normal cichlid behaviour..ie flaring gills at a minimum. The tank is clearly overstocked but why would everyone care what he does with his own fish. Breed him, stack'em do what you want. The fish do look healthy, that terror has some growing to do but she looks good too.

But kids don't try this at home...ugh..the you can do this too and add a few Oscars advice that this type of thread leads too will not be a good source of info.


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## DMWave45

I understand what you're saying but he clearly states that this isn't something that people should try on a regular basis and if they do he states the work that is involved with maintaining it.


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## terd ferguson

FiremouthShogun said:


> I'm shocked your fish don't display normal cichlid behaviour..ie flaring gills at a minimum. The tank is clearly overstocked but why would everyone care what he does with his own fish. Breed him, stack'em do what you want. The fish do look healthy, that terror has some growing to do but she looks good too.
> 
> But kids don't try this at home...ugh..the you can do this too and add a few Oscars advice that this type of thread leads too will not be a good source of info.


All my fishes are healthy and thriving. Believe me when I say that I'm as shocked as you are that they don't even flare gills at the least. But, because they don't display that particular behavior doesn't mean they don't display other normal cichlid behaviors. For instance, they dig around and improve their homes, they are breeding and laying eggs (although none have resulted in fry yet), they have voracious appetites and are even downright vicious when it comes to attacking prey, etc.. It's just the fighting each other that doesn't happen.

And as to your second point, I think I've gone out of my way to not encourage this kind of set up. I've even gone so far as to discourage this due to the amount of moeny, effort, and time involved.

With that said, it's not like I'm some kind of genious pioneer. I didn't invent this kind of tank. It has been done and overdone on other sites like MFK. Successful tanks with similar stocking that have lasted years, that is. To say that it isn't possible would be, in my opinion, wrong.

Now, with that said, stay tuned for a series of articles discouraging this kind of set up even more. Why would I go so far as to discourage something that has clearly worked for me and has clearly worked for many others? Because it's hard and expensive and time consuming and sometimes frustrating and your average hobbyist (read non-junky) isn't willing to put in the amount of work to make themselves successful and that will only end up in fishes dying and suffering needlessly. (Now that's a run on sentence.  ) And I don't like to see fishes suffer, mine or anyone else's. That's part of the reason why I'm a sucker for rescue basket cases. Several fishes in this tank are rescue cases (returned for getting too big or being too mean). If you were to pick out the three best looking fishes out of my pics, I bet you they'd be the three resce cases. I even bought a deformed tiny 1" jag from petsmart just because I knew no one else would and it would eventually die in the care of the workers at my local petsmart.

Thanks for reading and I think your concerns will be soon satisfied as to encouraging others if they already haven't been. Think of this as more of an information sharing rather than an "I did it and you can too!". It's more like scientific reasearch, didn't I mention I like to pretend I'm an amateur ichthyologist?


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## terd ferguson

Here's some stuff I've been working on in preperation for this new thread. Check it out and let me know if you'd like to see more. :thumb:


Thoughts on Owning a CA/SA Predator Community Tank
Or, The Adventures of an Amateur Ichthyologist
Or, How to Get Rid of All Your Spare Time and Money
Part I in a Multi-part Series

The Costs Associated With This Kind of Aquarium

If someone was to ask me should they attempt this kind of setup, Iâ€™d say probably not. This is not for the average hobbyist. There are lots of reasons and just one is the cost involved. Itâ€™s expensive. You have to have big tanks with big tank equipment. This means big money. Look at it this way, to do it right, youâ€™d probably need a 240 US Gallons tank. An acrylic tank is going to cost about $1,000 and glass will be a little less at about $800. Now you need a stand to put it on. Oh, and a canopy too. Thatâ€™s another $400 for the oak stand and $300 for the canopy. Now you need some lights to put in that canopy so you can see your monsters. Lighting for some setups can be as much as the tank itself. But, Iâ€™d just use a generic florescent strip lighting setup from a â€œBigâ€


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## illy-d

> How to Get Rid of All Your Spare Time and Money


 :lol: :lol: :lol:

(ain't that the truth)


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## TheFishGuy

Two things to everyone.

1.) The site is equipped with a swear filter for a reason. Please do not use clever way$ to avoid the swear filter. My time is valuable and I just spent the last hour cleaning this thread up.

2.) Can't remember what I was going to say :lol:

On a side note, don't take terd fergusons last post to heart. There's tons of ways to save money on huge set ups. Tons. My 800 cost me less than $3000 to build, filter and glass included. If you plan to do a large set up D.I.Y. is definately the way to go to save money. I have less than $1000 in my 240 gal. Just two examples 

I give these examples because as a hobbyist who wants to educate people about large fish my intent is to encourage people to keep large set ups. I just felt that the last statement could be a bit discouraging for someone planning a large set up in their future.

The cichlid-forum has an excellent DIY section filled with experienced monster tank builders :thumb:

Oh yeah, I remember what I was going to say for #2... And this is a general statement to anyone on the boards I moderate. Again, my time is valuable so if you choose to try and find a way around the swear filter I will no longer edit, just delete the post. So please bring your maturity and use proper language that my 9 year old can read. Thank you, thank you very much. Elvis has left the building 8)


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## terd ferguson

TheFishGuy said:


> Two things to everyone.
> 
> 1.) The site is equipped with a swear filter for a reason. Please do not use clever way$ to avoid the swear filter. My time is valuable and I just spent the last hour cleaning this thread up.
> 
> 2.) Can't remember what I was going to say :lol:
> 
> On a side note, don't take terd fergusons last post to heart. There's tons of ways to save money on huge set ups. Tons. My 800 cost me less than $3000 to build, filter and glass included. If you plan to do a large set up D.I.Y. is definately the way to go to save money. I have less than $1000 in my 240 gal. Just two examples
> 
> I give these examples because as a hobbyist who wants to educate people about large fish my intent is to encourage people to keep large set ups. I just felt that the last statement could be a bit discouraging for someone planning a large set up in their future.
> 
> The cichlid-forum has an excellent DIY section filled with experienced monster tank builders :thumb:
> 
> Oh yeah, I remember what I was going to say for #2... And this is a general statement to anyone on the boards I moderate. Again, my time is valuable so if you choose to try and find a way around the swear filter I will no longer edit, just delete the post. So please bring your maturity and use proper language that my 9 year old can read. Thank you, thank you very much. Elvis has left the building 8)


It's not my intention to discourage people from having big set ups. I think big tanks are awesome sights. But with the consideration of an overstocked tank, the same equipment that will work well for just a couple of fishes in a big tank will be inadequate for a big tank with more fishes. That is, a sump and pump will work fine for just a couple of fishes in a big tank. But with an overstocked tank being fed heavily, that same amount of filtration will be inadequate. That's not to say that you can't also have overkill filtration on the big tank with a couple of fishes. It certainly wouldn't hurt, but it's not needed.

The kind of person this article is aimed at is someone who has a tank or two and sees some photos of a tank like mine and says, "well my 55 with a couple of green terrors works well enough, I'll just do it bigger. it can't be that much more expensive, right?"

Of course, you can save a ton of money by doing it yourself and buying used equipment. But with that comes a gamble some may not want to take. Used equipment will almost always fail sooner than new equipment. This can cause a ton of problems if you're not prepared with back up pieces or are away on vacation when it happens. It's just all the more to consider.

I did everything myself with my setup, from a complete reseal of my used tank (that I traded a Craftsman tool chest for, I paid $60 for the tool chest from my neighbor), to plumbing my system, to customizing my sump, to building my stand, etc. I've got less than $700 total in my set up not counting fishes. Not everyone is capable of such work or may be just plain lazy and rather purchase it pre done. This is what I consider the average hobbyist. This is part of why I try to discourage the average hobbyist from trying this. Someone who wants to reseal a 200 gallon+ tank or attempt to build a stand to hold up thousands of pounds of water and glass that can destroy their home is not what I consider your average hobbyist.

And I apologize for the cursing, even if it was somewhat veiled. I never considered that kids may be reading this. This is entirely my fault and it won't happen again. I simply got caught up in the same arguing that ended up with my last thread being deleted. The information in here that can be used to help people is more important to me than defending myself against half truths and personal vendettas. Thanks for your time. :thumb:


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## Munky

Not only have a learnt a lot from this thread  i have also been thoroughly entertained (and i missed the swearing  ).

Thank you :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

Munky said:


> Not only have a learnt a lot from this thread  i have also been thoroughly entertained (and i missed the swearing  ).
> 
> Thank you :thumb:


Thanks for reading and you really didn't miss anything. I just said a couple of curse words I now regret using that a mod changed to more family friendly words. Well, that, and one of my posts was removed by the same mod where in response to the allegations that I lied about how long this tank has been running I typed...



terd ferguson said:


> This is just more crazy talk. Re-read my posts. Nothing has been exaggerated if you'll just read. Please stop side tracking this informational thread. Nobody wants to read this (insert bad word here). Start a new thread to run me down, but please stop doing it here. Please...pretty please...with sugar on top...


So, you really haven't missed anything. 

Stay tuned for more updates. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

The Jaguar Breeding Situation...

Ok, the tiny jag I bought from PetSmart at barely an inch long has blossomed. It has become quite clear in the last few weeks that this is a female. But, still being on the small side, I figured any breeding was still a ways off, if at all. Males and females of the same species don't always pair up just because they're in the same tank.

A quick rewind to when I bought this female- she was purchased way before Tiny or Teeny, she was one of the originals in the 55. I picked the biggest and darkest specimen from these tiny PetSmart jags hoping to get a male. My original plan for this tank involved one or two male jags (and no female jags) plus the rest of the stock in there now (some hadn't been located and purchased at this time). My plan was that if this (now determined to be) female turned out to be male, great. If it turned out to be female, great as well. I'd keep her either way. Then I found Tiny, who had been traded at my LFS for being "too mean". Being large and impressive, I couldn't pass him up. He's turned out even more awesome than I could've hoped. Then, I rescued Teeny from a different fish store that was closing. So, with the addition of Teeny and Tiny, my new plan was if this little one turned out to be female, I'd move her to a different tank to avoid trouble.

Anyway, fast forward to the last few days. It's become obvious that this female, Shorty, is very interested in Teeny, the smaller of the two males. Teeny has a much lighter coloration than Tiny. Maybe that's one of the reasons she chose Teeny over Tiny? And Teeny seems to have taken a keen interest in Shorty as well.

In any case, Teeny and Shorty have been hovering near the bottom, side by side doing a kind of dance. Sort of fluttering. First one, then the other. They are nearly always at each other's sides. Shorty, the female, has taken to digging a pit and somehow, despite her small size, moving a large flat rock into this pit and clearing it of all sand while Teeny looks on, presumably for a place to lay her eggs. She's never done this before. But, there are still no eggs, yet.

So far, the non existent aggression levels remain the same. No one has any fresh scars or missing scales or nipped fins. I am keeping a close eye on things (as I always do) ready to take action if things get out of hand. I realize that an actual spawn with eggs/fry could change the so far peaceful behavior. But, then again, I had the same fear when the Loiselli/Freddy began breeding and they turned out to be unfounded.

With that said, it may be as someone posted earlier. That this may be the make or break moment in my tank. One breeding pair may be ok, while two breeding pairs could be pushing my luck, especially if/when there's fry for the parents to defend.

My new plan is to watch carefully to see what happens next. If there's no trouble, I don't see a reason to do anything. If there is, I'll put Shorty in a 55 either by herself or maybe with Teeny. It just depends on how these events transpire as to what I'll have to do. But rest assured, I'll do the right thing, whatever that turns out to be. If there's fry, I'll offer them to local friends first and then trade the rest out for food and supplies from a couple of different LFS's (if the parents don't eat them, that is).

So, long story short, I'm hopeful, but anxious. I haven't seen anything yet that would be of concern. I'll continue to update with any new events. Thanks again for reading. :thumb:


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## illy-d

If you do get fry from either pair you could in theory raise these to be feeders... I say in theory because I had intended to do just that with some convict fry - only to have second thoughts of feeding offspring to parent (how human of me :? )...

If you get an opportunity to witness actual spawing you should try and get some photo or video of it and upload it & post it here!


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## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> If you do get fry from either pair you could in theory raise these to be feeders... I say in theory because I had intended to do just that with some convict fry - only to have second thoughts of feeding offspring to parent (how human of me :? )...
> 
> If you get an opportunity to witness actual spawing you should try and get some photo or video of it and upload it & post it here!


I'll charge up the video camera and keep my fingers crossed. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

Small Breeding Update......

I got a bunch of Convicts as fry last year. I fed some to the big fishes and I've been raising the rest since then in their own tank and now the males are a little over 2". There's 15 total, 6 males and the rest are females (duh,  ). I've got a bunch of small terra cotta flower pots in the tank with them. In the last few weeks, the Convicts have started to pair off and inhabit the flower pots.

About a week ago, I saw really tiny fry from one pair. The mom was gathering them up in her mouth and moving them. I saw them quite by accident. They're so small, they're easy to miss. In the last couple of days, two more pairs have fry. All total, there are 5 pairs with three of them having produced fry. One of the males, the biggest fish in the tank, hasn't seemed to have picked a mate. Either that, or he's splitting his time between the remaining females.

So, buying Rosey Reds and Comets from the LFS is almost done for me. I am well on my way to having a safe live food supply for my big ones.


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## illy-d

I've been thinking about something for quite some time now - something I observed in my tanks and in my tenants tanks... It has to do with keeping 'aggressive' cichlids together in a community and how chances may be improved...

What I've noticed is that fish that grow up together - fry from the same spawn seem to have a greater tolerance for living in close proximity - I think it's instinctual to increase ones chances of survival > the same principle is used by schooling fish: safety in numbers.

In the two 33g grow-out tanks me & my tenant have we each raised about 15 - 30 convicts... He currently has about 10x 2" - 2.5" cons (males & females) that live in relative harmony - but his fish haven't spawned yet... In my 33 I must have had a couple dozen fry growing out - and at aprox 1" TL I had a pair form & spawn. They claimed a cave at the right side of the tank and would defend it against intruders - but with far less voracity then their parents had protected their cave...

I know a lot of people feel that getting your fish small and growing them up together can increase your chances for success... I am wondering if you made this statement more specific by spawning your own fish and growing up your fish literally from day 1 would it increase your chances for success even more?

I'm aware that most cichlids (the Brichardi is one exception I can think of) chase the young away when they are ready to spawn again, so perhaps once these fish reach sexual maturity all bets are off...

Anyhow, sorry for rambling... Best of luck with your fry & feeder program!


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## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> I've been thinking about something for quite some time now - something I observed in my tanks and in my tenants tanks... It has to do with keeping 'aggressive' cichlids together in a community and how chances may be improved...
> 
> What I've noticed is that fish that grow up together - fry from the same spawn seem to have a greater tolerance for living in close proximity - I think it's instinctual to increase ones chances of survival > the same principle is used by schooling fish: safety in numbers.
> 
> In the two 33g grow-out tanks me & my tenant have we each raised about 15 - 30 convicts... He currently has about 10x 2" - 2.5" cons (males & females) that live in relative harmony - but his fish haven't spawned yet... In my 33 I must have had a couple dozen fry growing out - and at aprox 1" TL I had a pair form & spawn. They claimed a cave at the right side of the tank and would defend it against intruders - but with far less voracity then their parents had protected their cave...
> 
> I know a lot of people feel that getting your fish small and growing them up together can increase your chances for success... I am wondering if you made this statement more specific by spawning your own fish and growing up your fish literally from day 1 would it increase your chances for success even more?
> 
> I'm aware that most cichlids (the Brichardi is one exception I can think of) chase the young away when they are ready to spawn again, so perhaps once these fish reach sexual maturity all bets are off...
> 
> Anyhow, sorry for rambling... Best of luck with your fry & feeder program!


You raise some interesting questions. I don't know the answer, but I'd love to find out. It's kind of like a cat and dog getting along because they were raised together from a kitten and puppy. Someone should give it a try. :thumb:


----------



## Toby_H

I think it's more the effect of, since they (siblings) have always been there, they are used to them being there... New tankmates are rarely appreciated (unless a mate) and the new fish to a tank has to find his place in the local pecking order... When siblings are raised together a pecking order just sort of happens... or more accurately, is slowly developed as they mature and the "battles" are much more nip and chase as opposed to fighting with the new guy...

At least thatâ€™s what I thinkâ€¦


----------



## ashilli48

terd ferguson said:


> jmreef said:
> 
> 
> 
> u could also try peace lilies and pothos they r used in betta bowls
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for another good suggestion. I've also heard of people using mangrove trees (really small ones, lol). Anyone have any experience with those?
Click to expand...

Here are few sites from folks serious about mangroves in the aquarium, fresh or salt.

http://toptropicals.com/html/aqua/plant ... ve_eng.htm

http://www.mangrovemania.com/mangrove_aquarium.html


----------



## ashilli48

Big Den said:


> Personally, I like this thread because its what I do, less the feeders. I keep 2 jags, 3 green terrors and 3 synspilum in a 200 uk gallon tank along with 3 rainbow cichlids and 3 sajica. The tank is full of bogwood and rocks with java fern dotted about. The rainbows spawn frequently, the jags are at the moment digging a huge crater at one end. The synspilum are doing likewise at the other end. There is the occasional flare up, which I would expect, but no real malice. I have had this settup now for 14 months with no casualties. The rainbows at this moment are spawning on a rock right in the middle, driving off the gt's at the same time. Life goes on.


Big Den,
You mentioned no real malice, so I assume no real malice. Did everyone get added at the same time? How big are the rainbow. I have a breeding pair alone right now that are great but they previously were housed with a false red terror, convict, jack dempsey, green severum and texas and were almost slaughtered. They were all raised together as juives. Just curious.


----------



## terd ferguson

nc_nutcase said:


> I think it's more the effect of, since they (siblings) have always been there, they are used to them being there... New tankmates are rarely appreciated (unless a mate) and the new fish to a tank has to find his place in the local pecking order... When siblings are raised together a pecking order just sort of happens... or more accurately, is slowly developed as they mature and the "battles" are much more nip and chase as opposed to fighting with the new guy...
> 
> At least thatâ€™s what I thinkâ€¦


That makes sense. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

ashilli48 said:


> terd ferguson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jmreef said:
> 
> 
> 
> u could also try peace lilies and pothos they r used in betta bowls
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for another good suggestion. I've also heard of people using mangrove trees (really small ones, lol). Anyone have any experience with those?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Here are few sites from folks serious about mangroves in the aquarium, fresh or salt.
> 
> http://toptropicals.com/html/aqua/plant ... ve_eng.htm
> 
> http://www.mangrovemania.com/mangrove_aquarium.html
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot for those links. :thumb: I just got done reading them and they're awesome. I was surprised at how well the red mangroves worked to lower nitrates.

This sounds like it may be just what I'm looking for. I didn't read about any problems growing them (like someone suggested earlier) as long as you keep the leaves above water. ashilli48, do you have any actual experience with these in the aquarium, I've got some more questions.

Thanks again very much. :thumb:


----------



## ashilli48

I just figured you had already bucked the system on keeping "incompatibles" you could disprove the "mangroves are only good in salt or brackish" theory as well.


----------



## terd ferguson

ashilli48 said:


> I just figured you had already bucked the system on keeping "incompatibles" you could disprove the "mangroves are only good in salt or brackish" theory as well.


   lol

I'm looking into it. I'm going to try these out. It sounds very promising. Of course, I'll update here with whatever I do and learn. :thumb:


----------



## Big Den

ashilli48 said:


> Big Den said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I like this thread because its what I do, less the feeders. I keep 2 jags, 3 green terrors and 3 synspilum in a 200 uk gallon tank along with 3 rainbow cichlids and 3 sajica. The tank is full of bogwood and rocks with java fern dotted about. The rainbows spawn frequently, the jags are at the moment digging a huge crater at one end. The synspilum are doing likewise at the other end. There is the occasional flare up, which I would expect, but no real malice. I have had this settup now for 14 months with no casualties. The rainbows at this moment are spawning on a rock right in the middle, driving off the gt's at the same time. Life goes on.
> 
> 
> 
> Big Den,
> You mentioned no real malice, so I assume no real malice. Did everyone get added at the same time? How big are the rainbow. I have a breeding pair alone right now that are great but they previously were housed with a false red terror, convict, jack dempsey, green severum and texas and were almost slaughtered. They were all raised together as juives. Just curious.
Click to expand...

Yes they were all added at the same time. The rainbows were the biggest in the tank at the time. Bit different now, the jags are around 6/7 inches. They chase each other now and again, but they don't seem to mean it, if you get my meaning. I have just had a spawning from the young of the rainbows, in another tank. I would like to take the rainbows out of the main tank but I would have to break it all down to catch them. The tank is 8x2x2 full of rocks and bogwood. I have a trio of green terrors, 2 males and a female. They lock jaws now and again but no damage is caused. The synspilum are also 2 males and 1 female, they do a lot of chasing but seem to stop before anything really happens. The relative harmony in the tank imo is because they have all grown up together. Its been 14 months now and who knows what may happen in the future.


----------



## terd ferguson

Exciting (for me, anyway) Update.....

After nearly a year of searching, I've finally found my "unicorn". That is, the Tiger Guapote, or Red Tiger Mota, or Parachromis motaguense. I found her on the other side of town in an LFS i check out about once avery three or four months. I'm pretty sure it's a female, which is what I've been looking for, both for the smaller size and the more vibrant coloration. She's a little over 2", so she's in the African tank for now until she gets some more size and then she'll most likely replace the female jag. This one has a lot of bright orange already, despite her small size. I think this is going to turn out to be my favorite. 

As an aside, I wish I already had that 300 I've been hinting about setting up. The had some nice grammodes at about 4" too. I've been interested in those for a while too, but feel like it's not wise to add any more fishes to my already heavy stocking. They also had some nice dovii and some giant Green Terrors that were pretty awesome. If I only had that 300 here already, I'd have walked out money poor but fish rich, lol. 

Stay tuned for pictures of my new girl... :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

Ok, this isn't the best picture in the world, but it's the best I could get in a hurry, lol. Sorry for the dirty glass. 










This photo doesn't do this little fish justice, the orange and blue are so vivid in person. I'll get some better photos up soon. :thumb:

As a bonus, here's a couple of my Africans and my no-eyed pleco (thanks to a Kenyi I eventually had to remove)...


----------



## terd ferguson

Here's a little better shot...










This one's going to be a stunner.


----------



## heylady

Remember that those links for mangrove seedlings are there to sell them to you. And if you read the testimonial of the mudskipper owner, that tank is a brackish tank.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangrove

There is only one true freshwater mangrove and it comes from Australia (_Barringtonia racemosa_) and I don't know of anyone selling them...

All the mangroves I've seen here in Florida are on brackish/saltwater coastlines. Never along any freshwater bodies and believe me, they have the opportunity to spread up freshwater rivers and streams.

Love the new fish!! And how's the second pair spawning going??


----------



## terd ferguson

heylady said:


> Remember that those links for mangrove seedlings are there to sell them to you. And if you read the testimonial of the mudskipper owner, that tank is a brackish tank.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangrove
> 
> There is only one true freshwater mangrove and it comes from Australia (_Barringtonia racemosa_) and I don't know of anyone selling them...
> 
> All the mangroves I've seen here in Florida are on brackish/saltwater coastlines. Never along any freshwater bodies and believe me, they have the opportunity to spread up freshwater rivers and streams.
> 
> Love the new fish!! And how's the second pair spawning going??


Thanks for the clarification on the mangroves. :thumb:

The jags haven't made any further progress. So far, it's been a lot of dancing and flittering, but not much more. The female's tube isn't extended yet, but she shows major interest in Teeny.


----------



## ashilli48

heylady said:


> Remember that those links for mangrove seedlings are there to sell them to you. And if you read the testimonial of the mudskipper owner, that tank is a brackish tank.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangrove
> 
> There is only one true freshwater mangrove and it comes from Australia (_Barringtonia racemosa_) and I don't know of anyone selling them...
> 
> All the mangroves I've seen here in Florida are on brackish/saltwater coastlines. Never along any freshwater bodies and believe me, they have the opportunity to spread up freshwater rivers and streams.
> 
> Love the new fish!! And how's the second pair spawning going??


What part of FL are you in Where have you visited? They are everywhere. Check out the display at the Florida Aquarium in Tampa. That is a freshwater set-up, with mangroves. Just ask the turtles and large mouth bass swimming amongst them. LOL!

I think the key to the Wikipedia article (if you choose to trust such a source) is :

"Plants in mangals are diverse but all are able to exploit their habitat (the intertidal zone) by developing physiological adaptations to overcome the problems of anoxia, high salinity and frequent tidal inundation"

I think the key words are exploit and adaptations


----------



## terd ferguson

ashilli48 said:


> heylady said:
> 
> 
> 
> Remember that those links for mangrove seedlings are there to sell them to you. And if you read the testimonial of the mudskipper owner, that tank is a brackish tank.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangrove
> 
> There is only one true freshwater mangrove and it comes from Australia (_Barringtonia racemosa_) and I don't know of anyone selling them...
> 
> All the mangroves I've seen here in Florida are on brackish/saltwater coastlines. Never along any freshwater bodies and believe me, they have the opportunity to spread up freshwater rivers and streams.
> 
> Love the new fish!! And how's the second pair spawning going??
> 
> 
> 
> What part of FL are you in Where have you visited? They are everywhere. Check out the display at the Florida Aquarium in Tampa. That is a freshwater set-up, with mangroves. Just ask the turtles and large mouth bass swimming amongst them. LOL!
> 
> I think the key to the Wikipedia article (if you choose to trust such a source) is :
> 
> "Plants in mangals are diverse but all are able to exploit their habitat (the intertidal zone) by developing physiological adaptations to overcome the problems of anoxia, high salinity and frequent tidal inundation"
> 
> I think the key words are exploit and adaptations
Click to expand...

I'll be visiting some pond stores this weekend and if I can find some, I'll be trying them out. I'll post up if I find some. If not, I'll just order some online somewhere.


----------



## heylady

www.sfrc.ufl.edu/Extension/pubtxt/for43.htm

I live in Pinellas Park. When you see mangroves along the inland waterways that are all over this area, you have to realise those are brackish waters. The tide backs up into them...look for them along a purely freshwater river and you won't see them.

I have been to the Florida Aquarium. Can't say I recall seeing mangroves where the bass are....

Edited to add this link to the Florida Aquarium (read down to mangrove):

www.flaquarium.org/cm/templates/exhibit ... &zoneid=28


----------



## terd ferguson

heylady said:


> www.sfrc.ufl.edu/Extension/pubtxt/for43.htm
> 
> I live in Pinellas Park. When you see mangroves along the inland waterways that are all over this area, you have to realise those are brackish waters. The tide backs up into them...look for them along a purely freshwater river and you won't see them.
> 
> I have been to the Florida Aquarium. Can't say I recall seeing mangroves where the bass are....
> 
> Edited to add this link to the Florida Aquarium (read down to mangrove):
> 
> www.flaquarium.org/cm/templates/exhibit ... &zoneid=28


I lived in Pinellas Park in '84 to '85 when I was in the 6th grade. 

***EDITED TO ADD***
I found a place with mangroves, my local coral/saltwater store. I'm going to pick some up today and will let you guys know how it goes. :thumb:


----------



## heylady

Small world isn't it? 

Sorry to derail your thread!! Won't happen again, and how's your new girl doing today?


----------



## terd ferguson

heylady said:


> Small world isn't it?
> 
> Sorry to derail your thread!! Won't happen again, and how's your new girl doing today?


You didn't derail it. The more information in here that may help someone, the better.

The mota is doing great so far. I went out and got some Rosey Reds for the Africans and she ate a couple. I got a bunch of Comets for the big tank too. Five dozen go pretty quickly, lol. All those scales floating around the water is like glitter. 

Also, I found a place with mangroves and picked those up today. Give me a little while to get a post together about what I did and how (with pics) and I'll get that up here too. :thumb:


----------



## ashilli48

Definitely don't want anything derailed! Although I think our discussion has been in the same spirit of your thread, doing what is not the norm.

I concede the typical use of salinity in the "diet" of a mangrove tree but that has been proven to vary, even in the USF article you posted. So to say they are all totally salt or even brackish, just because they need some salt. We all need some salt.  How much I guess is the debate. I actually add salt to my cichlid tanks and they are not brackish.

Also the article only focused on the 4 types of Florida mangroves. The are over 50 varieties of actual mangroves.

I just wanted to point out that you can aclimate something to a lot of different things i.e. diet, temperature, environment, pH, etc etc. If the process is slow sometimes the animal, plant or whatever will adapt. I 've seen freshwater fish aclimated to salt and vice versa on other sites. As long as you don't dump one in to the opposite environment it is used and expect it to live you should be ok.

Back to business at hand, how are the "incompatibles" doing? 

By the way I worked in Pinellas Park....for a day! LOL!


----------



## terd ferguson

Ok, as promised, here's the info on the mangroves I got today.

Here they are as I brought them home ($38 for 6 "trees", each approximately 12" long with nice roots)...



















I got some 1/2" Dow insulation foam (the same kind I use under my tanks) and cut 6 holes in it with a slot to slide the trees into the hole. This allows them the roots to be in the water with the trunk and leaves out of the water. It's like hydroponics...










Then I put them in my sump. The ball valve you see is for my pump. the edge of the blue foam is at the edge of a chamber seperate from the pump chamber...










Here's how deep the roots are in the water...










The guy at the reefer shop hadn't heard of anyone using these in freshwater, but then again, he doesn't know anyone that isn't a reefer, lol. I promised to let him know how they held up after a couple of weeks. For lighting, I'm using a 13 watt energy saving bulb (the "corkscrew" kind of bulb). This uses mega low energy and doesn't put out a lot of heat, but is really bright. I plan on leaving this light on the same schedule as my tank, 10 on and 14 off.

If these do well, I'll redesign my foam mounting and get four more trees. These things are supposed to do wonders for nitrates, time will tell. I'll let you all know how well this works out.

Thanks again for reading and keep checking back for more updates. :thumb:


----------



## ashilli48

Did he say anything about substrate or does it matter?


----------



## terd ferguson

ashilli48 said:


> Did he say anything about substrate or does it matter?


He said in saltwater, they're usually planted in substrate. But he's also seen them floated like I'm doing. So, I guess it doesn't matter.


----------



## terd ferguson

I shot a quick video, check it out. But, be nice, this is my very first interweb video, lol.


----------



## cage623

> I shot a quick video, check it out. But, be nice, this is my very first interweb video


Don't be so hard on yourself; I thought the video came out nice. My favorite part was the soundtrack! Do you play that in the background when you feed your fish? That could be the last thing those feeders hear. Or at least the last thing they hear before the snapping shut of your fish' mouth.  But yeah, good video. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

cage623 said:


> I shot a quick video, check it out. But, be nice, this is my very first interweb video
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be so hard on yourself; I thought the video came out nice. My favorite part was the soundtrack! Do you play that in the background when you feed your fish? That could be the last thing those feeders hear. Or at least the last thing they hear before the snapping shut of your fish' mouth.  But yeah, good video. :thumb:
Click to expand...

Thanks. Oddly enough, the soundtrack is just some free music on photobucket's video editing. I don't know anything about video editing, this was my first attempt. But, it was easy enough. There was a button to replace the sound in my video (mostly my daughter talking, lol). Photobucket had a bunch of lame music you can add and I tried to pick the best track.

Like I said though, it's easy enough and the next video will be a little better with better lighting and better music. Thanks again for the compliment and thanks for reading. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

So, the little mota is doing great, the jags still haven't produced eggs, and the mangroves are still alive. So far, so good. :thumb:

I spoke to someone with mangroves in his freshwater tank and he says he's had them for months now and they're doing fine. This gives me hope that mine will do well and be able to keep my water that much cleaner. He claims no additives or salt, however, his mangroves are planted in substrate. I don't think having them floated, ala hydroponics (like mine) vs. planted will make a difference if they are able to live in freshwater.

If my mangroves start to do poorly, I will add some gravel to my sump and try planting them. Anyway, thanks again everyone for reading. :thumb:

Oh, yeah, one more thing, I'm actively searching for a 300g (96x30x24). If I can't find a good used one soon, I'm going to go with a glasscages acrylic. I've got big plans in the works, stay tuned, you won't want to miss what's coming soon... :dancing:


----------



## illy-d

> I plan on leaving this light on the same schedule as my tank, 10 on and 14 off.


I don't know why - but I do know that some people (maybe reefers?) have the lights over their sumps or refugiums on a reverse schedule to the main tank? Maybe someone can elaborate as to why?


----------



## thetim6

Don't quote me illy-d, but I'm pretty sure it's to prevent pH drop at night time.


----------



## terd ferguson

thetim6 said:


> Don't quote me illy-d, but I'm pretty sure it's to prevent pH drop at night time.


The reefer guy that sold me the mangroves told me the same thing, it helps to stabilize the ph. I'd try this, but all my lights are on the same powerstrip.

He also told me when to measure ph to get your extreme high and xtreme low. You measure right before the lights come on (when they've been off all night) and right before they go off (when they've been on all day). Then, I guess you could try switching the lights on plants in a sump to the opposite schedule of the tank and test to see if it makes a difference.

Maybe I'll work out a way to try this? The way I figure it is, the more stability, the better. Again, it's all about making the variables work for you instead of against you. :thumb:


----------



## thetim6

Ya I imagine this would only be relevant in a tank with plants or an abundance of algae.

I am going to test the pH in my tanks at the extremes, I'm interested to see just how drastic the drop is.

I don't know much specifically about mangroves, but they have to actively remove salt from their system. They don't require it, but they have the ability to regulate it. That is my understanding at least.


----------



## terd ferguson

thetim6 said:


> Ya I imagine this would only be relevant in a tank with plants or an abundance of algae.
> 
> I am going to test the pH in my tanks at the extremes, I'm interested to see just how drastic the drop is.
> 
> I don't know much specifically about mangroves, but they have to actively remove salt from their system. They don't require it, but they have the ability to regulate it. That is my understanding at least.


Please post your test results, I'm interested to see the spread.

And, I have the same understanding about the mangroves.


----------



## Toby_H

Terd,

So what was the story with the big Jag you had to remove from the tank? I saw him at Frank n Pegs, he looked great. But the guy at the store told me you warned him this Jag is a beatâ€¦ it refused to accept tank mates in a 180 gal...


----------



## terd ferguson

nc_nutcase said:


> Terd,
> 
> So what was the story with the big Jag you had to remove from the tank? I saw him at Frank n Pegs, he looked great. But the guy at the store told me you warned him this Jag is a beatâ€¦ it refused to accept tank mates in a 180 gal...


Toby,

You must have me confused with someone else. I've never been to Frank and Peg's and I still have two monster jags and a smaller female. They're the same ones I've had all along. No one has been removed from my tank. And my tank is 190g, not 180g.

You can check out the video I posted the other day, it was shot the same day I posted it. You can see all the jags in it. They're doing awesome and getting some real size and girth to them. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

terd ferguson said:


> nc_nutcase said:
> 
> 
> 
> Terd,
> 
> So what was the story with the big Jag you had to remove from the tank? I saw him at Frank n Pegs, he looked great. But the guy at the store told me you warned him this Jag is a beatâ€¦ it refused to accept tank mates in a 180 gal...
> 
> 
> 
> Toby,
> 
> You must have me confused with someone else. I've never been to Frank and Peg's and I still have two monster jags and a smaller female. They're the same ones I've had all along. No one has been removed from my tank.
> 
> You can check out the video I posted the other day, it was shot the same day I posted it. You can see all the jags in it. They're doing awesome and getting some real size and girth to them. :thumb:
Click to expand...

In fact, I rescued another Parachromis today. I didn't want to let the cat out of the bag just yet, but I also didn't want anyone to think I was getting rid of fish because of aggression issues. I've always been more than honest in letting everyone know what's going on in my tank, positive and negative. When I have failed, I have posted it, just as when I've succeeded, I've posted it.

I wanted to wait a little while to announce this, because he's a little beat up from his former home. I wanted to give him a little time to settle in and heal up before I shot some pics and announced his arrival.

Anyway, I think it's a male freddy, but his coloration is a little confusing. But, I'm 95% sure it's either a freddy (Parachromis friedrichsthalii) or a male mota (Parachromis motaguense). The coloration is just a little different from a freddy or mota, but it could be because he's a little washed out right now from being beat up and the move. The body and head shape definately are not loiselli. The pattern is definately not managuense. And I know for usre it's not a dovii, lol. Pics will follow later tonight. He's about 10" and pretty laid back.

Again, to all reading, I've still got all my fishes. No aggression worries so far. I'll try and shoot another video later tonight showing all the fishes, including this new guy. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

This shot sucks, I know. I'll get some better ones tomorrow. This is with the tank light off and a little spot light, if he'd held still one more second, it would've been perfect...










I'm leaning towards male motaguense.


----------



## terd ferguson

Here's a head shot...










***EDITED TO ADD***

I'm 100% positive now that this is a male Parachromis friedrichsthalii after much interweb reasearch. I'll still get a better full body profile shot up tomorrow. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

Here's another shot from this morning. This guy's still kind of camera shy, I'm sure he'll settle in soon and I'll be able to get some better pictures up. 










And for Toby (nc_nutcase), here's proof of life (they kept dropping the copy of today's newspaper and then it just got all mushy, lol  ).










I know that last shot sucked, it was the only one where I could get Tiny, Teeny, and Shorty all in one shot. Thanks again for reading. :thumb:


----------



## Tyneway830

whats the difference between Parachromis friedrichsthalli, Parachromis loiselli, Parachromis managuense? can u show me the difference and explain? i thought they were all jaguars


----------



## terd ferguson

Tyneway830 said:


> whats the difference between Parachromis friedrichsthalli, Parachromis loiselli, Parachromis managuense? can u show me the difference and explain? i thought they were all jaguars


Jaguar is the common name for Parachromis managuense. Freddy is the common name for Parachromis friedrichsthalii. You can find more info on these in the profiles section here.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/results.php?genus=144


----------



## illy-d

Have you updated your signature to reflect current stocking? I'm trying to get straight where's where and what's what... Is the female Mota you talked about in the tank yet?

PS: How many feeders do you dump in at a time and how long do they last? I used to get feeders for my turtles as a kid and sometimes they'd live for weeks before becoming lunch...


----------



## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> Have you updated your signature to reflect current stocking? I'm trying to get straight where's where and what's what... Is the female Mota you talked about in the tank yet?
> 
> PS: How many feeders do you dump in at a time and how long do they last? I used to get feeders for my turtles as a kid and sometimes they'd live for weeks before becoming lunch...


Yes, I updated my sig. The 2 loisellis are the former freddy/loiselli pair, Captain Awesome and Lois from the pics on page one. I was unsure of Captain Awesome's true identity (loiselli? or freddy?) for a while. I have since found out for certain that he is indeed a loiselli, especially compared to the new freddy. His yellow has gotten extremely vibrant in the last couple of months. The freddy in the sig is the new freddy on page 9. I also moved a synodontis to the African tank to offset the bioload from adding the new freddy. All others are the same. I haven't put the mota in with them yet, she's in with the Africans. I'd like for her to get a little size first, I'm thinking at least 3 1/2" to 4". Sorry for any confusion. 

The only reason I added the mota to the sig (even though she's not in the tank yet) is because I've spent so long looking for her and am proud to have her. Just bragging a little. 

For feeders, I usually get eight dozen or so. I put a dozen Rosey Reds in my African tank and dump the rest (2 dozen Roseys and 5 dozen Comets) in the big tank. About half disappear within a few minutes and the rest are gone by morning. These fishes are well fed and have huge apetites, especially the Oscars and the Jags. The smallest jag, the female Shorty, will eat three or four Rosey Reds at a time. It's so funny to see multiple tails hanging out of her mouth still wiggling.


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## terd ferguson

Here's some random thoughts and a new tank update.

I'm going to pull the trigger tomorrow on a new tank. It'll be a Tenecor 350 acrylic. The footprint will be 96" long x 36" wide x 24" tall with overflows. It'll take about 4 weeks from ordering to be built and shipped.

The new tank will be replacing the 190 and will provide a couple of benefits for me. First, it will basically double my current tank size. Second, the shorter height of 24" will allow me to have some plants in the tank itself and make maintnance easier. I love planted tanks, but the 30" height of my current setup precludes having them. My arms aren't 30" long, lol.  Third, it'll allow me to get a couple of specimens I really like but just don't have room for. One of these will for sure be grammodes. I've loved these mini guapotes since I first heard about them and started researching them. The extreme width and length of this new tank will also give me tons of possiblities for providing "houses" and also allow much more swimming room.

The main theme of this new tank will be mostly Parachromis (much like my current setup) as they are the most fascinating to me. All of the current stock will be moved to the new tank as well as a couple of additions. Besides the grammodes hint, you'll have to wait to see what else is going in there. 

I'll be designing and building a stand for this new tank. I'll be able to use all the equipment from my current setup on the new tank, reducing start up costs. I'll probably end up designing a new wet/dry sump as well. I'm not sure if the current 50g sump will cut it on such a large tank with more stock, although it's working awesome in it's current state.

My original plan for a newer bigger tank was to get a pair of dovii. But I think my new, current plan will alow for a much more interesting tank. I more than likely won't be keeping the 190 (are you listening Toby?, lol.). It's a lot of work to maintain a big tank like this and with two giant tanks, I feel it's more than I want to take on. If I could put a dovii in the 190, I'd seriously consider keeping it. But, I feel the footprint of the 190 is just not conducive to keeping a dovii.

I'm also considering a "Back To Nature" type background for this new tank. I'd really like to go for a sandy river bed type biotope with a lot of wood and round rocks. I'm really excited about this and I think you guys will be too. Stay tuned, it's only getting better. 

I saw some pictures of a setup on MFK a few weeks ago that started this whole new tank ball rolling. The following pics are the look I'd like to accomplish (with a little more light). These pics inspired me and I can't wait to see were they lead.

Super duper teaser shots...




























I'd love to hear what you guys think about this.


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## trimac

Sorry to bust in on your thread again-but do you know it is a bad idea to feed Africans feeders-they are primarily herbivore and are prone to bloat????


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## terd ferguson

trimac said:


> Sorry to bust in on your thread again-but do you know it is a bad idea to feed Africans feeders-they are primarily herbivore and are prone to bloat????


I've got 16 Africans and a pleco and now the female mota in there. I only put a dozen feeders in there every couple of weeks. The pleco always eats one. I don't think that this scenario could lead to bloat. But, thanks for looking out. :thumb:

Also, something that amazes me is that the pleco can actually find a feeder and catch it with no eyes (and that a pleco would eat a feeder). The eyes were eaten by a hyper aggressive Kenyi almost a year ago. I finally had to remove the Kenyi due to these kinds of problems.


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## heylady

That tank you posted a pic of is amazing... :drooling: And a big congrats to you on getting a new tank!! :thumb: Wish I could get a tank that big!!
Are you going to make your own background or buy one? I've heard that the ones you can buy are really expensive...

Love your new jag too!  What awesome colors on that guy :thumb: Jags are on my "must have someday" list!!


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## terd ferguson

heylady said:


> That tank you posted a pic of is amazing... :drooling: And a big congrats to you on getting a new tank!! :thumb: Wish I could get a tank that big!!
> Are you going to make your own background or buy one? I've heard that the ones you can buy are really expensive...
> 
> Love your new jag too!  What awesome colors on that guy :thumb: Jags are on my "must have someday" list!!


That tank is truly awesome. The pics really inspired me when I saw them a few weeks ago. The wheels started turning right then and there. To give credit where credit is due, it's a memeber on MFK from the UK named nutty.

As far as the background goes, I haven't decided yet whether to make one or purchase one. I'm kind of a DIY type of guy and with the cost of the Back To Nature pieces, I may end up making my own.

The new fish was sold as a "gold jag", but it was incorrectly labeled. It is a male Parachromis friedrichsthalii or common name freddy. Thanks for the compliments. Given a little time for him to heal up from being beat up in his former home and I bet he'll be even better looking. :thumb:


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## ziyaadb

man i never had the time to go through the 9 pages esp after the fighting on page 2 but i just wana say that u may have swayed me from making another african tank to going to a sa/ca tank. Just awesome man awesome(your fish and tanks)


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## illy-d

Once I move in to my new place and get settled I am planning a small Orinoco bio-tope tank that will have a DIY background fashioned after a 'mud bank' or 'river bed'... I'll take lots of shots and start a thread in the DIY section... I've done about 22 months of research on these DIY backgrounds (even bought the supplies once, had the thing half 'carved' and realized I would be losing about 35% of the width of my 55g - so I shelved it)...

Anyhow I've got a tonne of ideas that I think you may find interesting so I'll keep you posted!

Also, I wanted to say that I think switching to a tank with a larger footprint will only improve your odds - once you add the female Mota to the mix you could potentialy have as many as 3 pairs of large, aggressive fish!!!

As for plants - I think you will still find that re-planting is a pain in the butt even with a shallower tank... What I had great success with was fastening hardy plants like Java Fern and Anubias directly to stones or wood... I think you could have success with plants such as Swords and Valisneria if you get them in the tank a few weeks before adding any fish to allow the roots to establish themselves... The funny thing about valisneria is that it is a pain in the butt to plant intitially - but once it's runners take off the new plants root themselves securely very quickly!


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## terd ferguson

ziyaadb said:


> man i never had the time to go through the 9 pages esp after the fighting on page 2 but i just wana say that u may have swayed me from making another african tank to going to a sa/ca tank. Just awesome man awesome(your fish and tanks)


Thanks for reading. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> Once I move in to my new place and get settled I am planning a small Orinoco bio-tope tank that will have a DIY background fashioned after a 'mud bank' or 'river bed'... I'll take lots of shots and start a thread in the DIY section... I've done about 22 months of research on these DIY backgrounds (even bought the supplies once, had the thing half 'carved' and realized I would be losing about 35% of the width of my 55g - so I shelved it)...
> 
> Anyhow I've got a tonne of ideas that I think you may find interesting so I'll keep you posted!
> 
> Also, I wanted to say that I think switching to a tank with a larger footprint will only improve your odds - once you add the female Mota to the mix you could potentialy have as many as 3 pairs of large, aggressive fish!!!
> 
> As for plants - I think you will still find that re-planting is a pain in the butt even with a shallower tank... What I had great success with was fastening hardy plants like Java Fern and Anubias directly to stones or wood... I think you could have success with plants such as Swords and Valisneria if you get them in the tank a few weeks before adding any fish to allow the roots to establish themselves... The funny thing about valisneria is that it is a pain in the butt to plant intitially - but once it's runners take off the new plants root themselves securely very quickly!


The background is one of the reasons I chose the 350 over the 300. I get 6" more width, 36" vs. 30" and it's only $150 more. I've also been reading up on the DIY backgrounds here and on MFK. There's some great work for inspiration. Good luck making yours, I can't wait to see how it turns out. What size tank will it be for?

I'm not too worried about the plants just yet. The tank won't be delivered for at least four weeks. My main focus right now is designing the stand and a sump. Designs are the easy part, lol. The building is the time consuming part. I've done the anubias and java moss on wood thing too. I could never really get the anubias to root well to the wood. By the time the fishing line disintegrated, the plants would just float away. I ended up planting them in the gravel where they do fine with my Africans. This may not be the case with the bigger fishes though. They dig much bigger holes.


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## illy-d

> Good luck making yours, I can't wait to see how it turns out. What size tank will it be for?


Thanks - I will start a thread for sure!... As for size I don't really know yet... My fiance and I had to sell our house here (in Victoria) and move to a more expensive market (Vancouver)... We've downsized from a 2 storey house with a 1,000 sq/foot, 2 bedroom basement suite to a 2 bedroom townhome that's only 950 square feet :lol: To be honest I don't even remember what the place looks like, I went to 16 open houses the weekend that we saw this place so I can't keep one property straight from the others in my mind... Smallest tank I would like is a 40 breeder, and I am hoping to be able to get a 75g or better yet a custom 90g that's basically flopped on it's side (so it's wider and shallower). It was hard to down size from my 135, but I take solace in the fact that I will be back into a house within 5 years (I hope) and get myself a real tank (like a 240g :thumb: ). For now though it's Dwarf cichlids all the way baby!!! (I'll just pretend I'm standing really far away from a big predator tank).


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## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> Good luck making yours, I can't wait to see how it turns out. What size tank will it be for?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks - I will start a thread for sure!... As for size I don't really know yet... My fiance and I had to sell our house here (in Victoria) and move to a more expensive market (Vancouver)... We've downsized from a 2 storey house with a 1,000 sq/foot, 2 bedroom basement suite to a 2 bedroom townhome that's only 950 square feet :lol: To be honest I don't even remember what the place looks like, I went to 16 open houses the weekend that we saw this place so I can't keep one property straight from the others in my mind... Smallest tank I would like is a 40 breeder, and I am hoping to be able to get a 75g or better yet a custom 90g that's basically flopped on it's side (so it's wider and shallower). It was hard to down size from my 135, but I take solace in the fact that I will be back into a house within 5 years (I hope) and get myself a real tank (like a 240g :thumb: ). For now though it's Dwarf cichlids all the way baby!!! (I'll just pretend I'm standing really far away from a big predator tank).
Click to expand...

That sounds great. I know what it's like to have to wait for what you really want. But, it'll make it all the more sweeter when you finally get it. 

If you get the custom 90 you're talking about, that should work out great for your DIY background. It'll be a little wider to give you some more room to make up for the space the background takes up. :thumb:


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## TheFishGuy

ziyaadb said:


> man i never had the time to go through the 9 pages esp after the fighting on page 2 but i just wana say that u may have swayed me from making another african tank to going to a sa/ca tank. Just awesome man awesome(your fish and tanks)


I would strongly advise against attempting a tank like this one in this thread. Stock light, and you will have your brutes for their entire 15 year lifespan. Africans only average 5-6 years on this planet, SA/CA live much longer if they are not over crowded, moved alot or over fed. Over stocking to prevent aggression does not work with SA/CA like it does with africans. I've tried... with horrible results. Guapote do not care for being submissive, it's not in their nature. They _must_ have control or one day they will snap and take control with much force. They need space, a spawning pair of jags in the wild will patrol an 8' radius and defend it to the death. Keep this in mind when choosing your fish ziyaadb. Big fish need big tanks, and SA/CA cichlids appreciate area, lots of it! The larger the footprint the better.


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## terd ferguson

TheFishGuy said:


> ziyaadb said:
> 
> 
> 
> man i never had the time to go through the 9 pages esp after the fighting on page 2 but i just wana say that u may have swayed me from making another african tank to going to a sa/ca tank. Just awesome man awesome(your fish and tanks)
> 
> 
> 
> I would strongly advise against attempting a tank like this one in this thread. Stock light, and you will have your brutes for their entire 15 year lifespan. Africans only average 5-6 years on this planet, SA/CA live much longer if they are not over crowded, moved alot or over fed. Over stocking to prevent aggression does not work with SA/CA like it does with africans. I've tried... with horrible results. Guapote do not care for being submissive, it's not in their nature. They _must_ have control or one day they will snap and take control with much force. They need space, a spawning pair of jags in the wild will patrol an 8' radius and defend it to the death. Keep this in mind when choosing your fish ziyaadb. Big fish need big tanks, and SA/CA cichlids appreciate area, lots of it! The larger the footprint the better.
Click to expand...

TFG is correct. He has years and years of experience. He definately knows what he's talking about.

With that said, I would like to respectfully take issue with one of TFG's points. That is the territory size required by these fishes in the aquarium. Most folks' guapotes didn't come from Rapp's and are not wild caught. They have been bred in aquariums for decades now. While I feel it's not possible to entirely erase natural instincts of these predators, they have never had a space as large as he describes to defend. I feel this is a different instinct than something like feeding live foods to keep them happy. This is because they will know hunger regardless of their enviornment. Aquarium bred fish (read: not wild caught or F0, F1, etc.) will not know the type of space they have in the wild. They only know tiny glass cages. This doesn't change their very territorial nature, it just makes the territory required much smaller.

You say the CA/SA's appreciate lots of area and they do. But if we really followed that advice, none of us would have any tanks at all, because at the end of the day, we can't provide them the proper space except for places like giant public aquariums. Just using the 8' radius territory you mentioned as an example for a pair of breeding jags, that equates to close to 1,000 US Gallons in order to have a mating pair of jags with a tankmate. I know literally scores of people with mating pairs of guapotes (read: one pair) with a tankmate or two or a few with no problems for years on tanks *much* smaller than the given example. That's not to say that it will work for everyone who would try this, but it does and can work.

In my case, this equates to "lord help the syno if he goes looking for crumbs in Tiny's house". I have found this to be similar with all my fishes. As long as they stay out of each others' "house", and they do (except for the syno, but he does most of his roaming at night when the others are sleeping), there are no problems. They know where their personal space is and the space of others. They worked this out by themselves. I didn't assign them a specific place in the tank to call their "house". That's not to say they don't swim around and come into close proximity to one another, they do. It's just that Teeny doesn't go in Tiny's "house" (his hole) and vice versa. The Loisellis don't go into the festae's "spot" and vice versa, etc.. But, they still swim and interact with each other with literally no problems.

Their life in the aquarium, while similar to that in the wild, is on a much smaller scale. At the end of the day, we are keeping these fishes in _tiny_ glass cages compared to where their wild counterparts come from. Just as you can change their behavior and instinct to accept pellets vs. the live fishes and insects and sometimes birds they eat in the wild, I feel you can change their behavior in respect to how much space they think they need. That's not to say you can cram as many fishes as you'd like into x size tank. Mine is very borderline stocking wise. A wrong move here or there could spell disaster. That's just the way it is in this line of work. It all comes back to trying as best as you can to use all the variables to your advantage, making them work for you rather than against you.

TFG, I certainly respect and agree with your experiences and advice dissuading average hobbyists from trying this setup. My words are merely my theories and experiences and are not to be considered advice. And while this tank hasn't been successful for a number of years yet, it doesn't mean it can't be. And it doesn't mean my fishes will die an early death from being stocked the way they are as long as their needs are met and their water is kept in excellent shape as it has been. This is also not meant to say that this all couldn't change next week if someone in the tank were to go on a rampage.

TFG, I welcome further discussion on this territory requirement and would love to hear more about your experiences in this endeavor, good and bad. Please add more to the discussion. We can all learn from each others' experiences good and bad. That's what this thread is all about. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

And, let me clarify just a little, TFG. I'm not saying you are incorrect. I'm asserting that we can both be correct and that it depends mainly on the dispositions and personalities of the individual fishes (in this case, guapotes, as we are discussing this particular issue of territorial requirements).


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## Toby_H

In this thread Terd has DISCOURAGED others from attempting such a tank. I hope this is still the mood of this thread. Sure Terd has the right to try this, and so do I. But just because I have the right to do something doesnâ€™t make it the right thing to doâ€¦



> I feel you can change their behavior in respect to how much space they think they need.


â€œBehaviorâ€


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## terd ferguson

nc_nutcase said:


> In this thread Terd has DISCOURAGED others from attempting such a tank. I hope this is still the mood of this thread. Sure Terd has the right to try this, and so do I. But just because I have the right to do something doesnâ€™t make it the right thing to doâ€¦
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I feel you can change their behavior in respect to how much space they think they need.
Click to expand...

â€œBehaviorâ€


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## trimac

Sorry to lazy to read all this thread-but, have your breeding fish actually had free swimming fry yet-cause if not that is when the problem of aggression MAY occur-I think a lot of times people get caught in the beauty and behavior of these fish and want MORE-heck years ago I was like that but may I recommend something Blair stated-why not make a cardboard cut out of the overall size of each fish and then use a cardboard box (app. size of your tank) then place the cut outs inside that way you could get a visualization of how crammed they might be at full size?


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## terd ferguson

trimac said:


> Sorry to lazy to read all this thread-but, have your breeding fish actually had free swimming fry yet-cause if not that is when the problem of aggression MAY occur-I think a lot of times people get caught in the beauty and behavior of these fish and want MORE-heck years ago I was like that but may I recommend something Blair stated-why not make a cardboard cut out of the overall size of each fish and then use a cardboard box (app. size of your tank) then place the cut outs inside that way you could get a visualization of how crammed they might be at full size?


The loisellis have been eating their eggs, so no free swimmng fry as of yet. But, if they do ever get to the point of having free swimming fry and I decide not to remove the fry, I'm sure nature will take it's course and they will be taken care of by the parents or someone else. And by that I mean nature will take it's course and someone will eat them or the parents will eat them as they prepare for their next spawning.

And for the record, nearly all the fishes in this tank are pretty darn close to full size now. Check back on page one and you can see their current sizes. Well, current as of a couple of weeks ago anyway. Only two are roughly half their full grown size (the female jag and the GT). The rest are at least or well over 3/4 of their potential full size. If you take a look at the tank shot on page one, you'll see that it's not as crowded as you may imagine. You must've also been to lazy (your words) to read about the 350 I bought yesterday that'll be here in about 4 weeks. It's certainly less crowded than a full grown dovii and a full grown umbee in a 240, lol. They'll certainly each get longer than your tank is wide. But, while we may have had our disagreements, I do appreciate what you're trying to do in housing them together and they look very healthy, so good for you. :thumb: Those two particular fishes, in my opinion, are the most aggressive of the big cichlids. They don't murder for food or frustration, they murder just because.

Being a teacher, I would think you wouldn't be so lazy (your words) as not to read before you post. All the questions you ask have always already been answered in the thread if you'd just read it. No offense. :thumb:


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## Toby_H

> It's quite the opposite. I encourage it by providing territory and enough tank features for each fish to claim his or her own space.


But I do not feel your tank offers enough space per fishâ€™s territory for it to be their territory. Instead itâ€™s their hole. Fish such as yours in the wild do not seek out holesâ€¦ they seek out, establish and protect territoriesâ€¦ Most people will fit in a 180 gallon tankâ€¦ but if I arranged thirty 180 gal tanks in my garage that doesnâ€™t mean my garage can now house thirty peopleâ€¦



> It has been my experience that it may not be necessary for them to have as much territory as may have been previously thought, so long as no one is left out.


Then your experience is in direct conflict with the experience of many hundreds of people over the course of a couple decades. This is why many of us say your tank hasnâ€™t gone sour yetâ€¦



> Watching my fishes' behavior for such periods puts me in a better position to predict what will happen in my tank than others on the other end of a computer in an interwebz forum, regardless of their decades of collective experience.


Feeling your year of experience out weighs many peopleâ€™s many years of experience is dangerousâ€¦ Iâ€™m not criticizing you for trying this, just offering a warning based on logicâ€¦ Enjoy it as long as itâ€™s workingâ€¦ but donâ€™t assume the hundreds of others who have explored this idea far further than you have, are idiotsâ€¦



> I respect you Toby, for your experiences and the work you do with the Dempseys. And while we may disagree on some small points, I feel we have more in common than we do differences in philosophies. That is, at the end of the day, it's all about the fishes.


Thank you for the kind words Kevin, and I hope Iâ€™m not being taken argumentatively. This is not my intention. Youâ€™ve done a great job at sharing your philosophies and offering examples of them in effect. But I think to disallow the experiences of the vast majority on the same topic to share their side would be a gross misrepresentation. I look forward to following the overall progress of your tank and although I hate to give back your Dempsey, Iâ€™m looking forward to seeing the tank when I do.

I will also say this, if you were denying the fish dÃ©cor or keeping low temps, etc to reduce aggression, I and many others (I assume) would speak up much more often and much more boldly. You have only (to my knowledge) denied your fish space, which is the bases of your experiment.


----------



## terd ferguson

nc_nutcase said:


> It's quite the opposite. I encourage it by providing territory and enough tank features for each fish to claim his or her own space.
> 
> 
> 
> But I do not feel your tank offers enough space per fishâ€™s territory for it to be their territory. Instead itâ€™s their hole. Fish such as yours in the wild do not seek out holesâ€¦ they seek out, establish and protect territoriesâ€¦ Most people will fit in a 180 gallon tankâ€¦ but if I arranged thirty 180 gal tanks in my garage that doesnâ€™t mean my garage can now house thirty peopleâ€¦
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has been my experience that it may not be necessary for them to have as much territory as may have been previously thought, so long as no one is left out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then your experience is in direct conflict with the experience of many hundreds of people over the course of a couple decades. This is why many of us say your tank hasnâ€™t gone sour yetâ€¦
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Watching my fishes' behavior for such periods puts me in a better position to predict what will happen in my tank than others on the other end of a computer in an interwebz forum, regardless of their decades of collective experience.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Feeling your year of experience out weighs many peopleâ€™s many years of experience is dangerousâ€¦ Iâ€™m not criticizing you for trying this, just offering a warning based on logicâ€¦ Enjoy it as long as itâ€™s workingâ€¦ but donâ€™t assume the hundreds of others who have explored this idea far further than you have, are idiotsâ€¦
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I respect you Toby, for your experiences and the work you do with the Dempseys. And while we may disagree on some small points, I feel we have more in common than we do differences in philosophies. That is, at the end of the day, it's all about the fishes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you for the kind words Kevin, and I hope Iâ€™m not being taken argumentatively. This is not my intention. Youâ€™ve done a great job at sharing your philosophies and offering examples of them in effect. But I think to disallow the experiences of the vast majority on the same topic to share their side would be a gross misrepresentation. I look forward to following the overall progress of your tank and although I hate to give back your Dempsey, Iâ€™m looking forward to seeing the tank when I do.
> 
> I will also say this, if you were denying the fish dÃ©cor or keeping low temps, etc to reduce aggression, I and many others (I assume) would speak up much more often and much more boldly. You have only (to my knowledge) denied your fish space, which is the bases of your experiment.
Click to expand...

No worries Toby about anything you've posted. But, let me just make one thing clear here. I'm not discounting others experiences in trying this before and failing. I just know the behavior that goes on in my tank better than anyone else on the whole world wide interwebz. It would be like me telling you that it's unpossible to breed and raise EBJD's because they are so fragile when small because I know of hardly anyone doing it successfully. You happen to know differently and your experiences would be different than those who have previously failed. That's all I meant. And for the record, I've seen at least as many success stories with this kind of set up as I've heard horror stories.

You would have to agree that fish keeping has changed very much in the last couple of decades. The equipment is better and people are finding with new technology and new ideas that things once thought not possible are now not only possible but likely. Not only that, but with information technology being what it is and people from all over the world being able to come together in one place to share their experiences with what works and what doesn't just wasn't possible decades ago. This is what's helped me be successful so far. It's the same with technology in life in general. There are those who choose to hang on to the old ways and put down those with new ideas (not that this is my new idea, many have gone before me). That song about the 'old hippy who don't know what to do, should he hang on to the old or grab on to the new' comes to mind.

*And I can't emphasize this enough, and you know I mean no offense by this, but we are all denying our fishes space by choosing to keep them in tiny glass cages.* I appreciate *everyone's* experiences and welcome them to share them here in my thread so long as it's not 155 posts like 'it didn't work for me so it'll never work for you'. I'm looking for more posts like you offer that are thoughtful and inciteful. Posts where folks actually sit down and think before just firing off a bunch of words. I think you know what I'm talking about.

I'm looking for real experiences beyond 'it didn't work for me'. I want to hear why these people think it didn't work for them. What may have contributed to problems. What precautions did they take to try and prevent problems. What worked and what didn't. There's a lot of that information missing from the naysayers and without it, we are all not as good of a fishkeeper as we could be. What I've done is a lot more than just tossing a bunch of fish in there and crossing my fingers. I try to share this in the hopes of furthering this hobby we all share that has obviously turned to nearly an obsession for me, lol.

What can I say? I love what I'm doing and am rewarded by my results so far. I can't discount the experiences of others who have been in this hobby longer than me just as they can't disount my experiences simply because I haven't been doing it as long as them. I'm a pretty smart guy and read a lot. The hours I spend each day watching my tank are usually spent with the lap top reading and researching all that I can. I've got a kind of arthritis (at only 35) that makes sleep difficult, so I read most nights too. I've gained more knowledge in a year than most casual hobbyists will in a decade. I'll put my knowledge of guapotes to the test against anyone anytime.

Remember, just because this isn't being done here doesn't mean it isn't being done. You're a member of MFK, I'm sure you've seen tanks that make mine pale in comparison with regards to stock you wouldn't expect to see work. I'll say this again (because I believe it to be true), it's about examining each and every variable that you as a fishkeeper can control and manipulating those variables (with the fishes' well being in mind, of course) and making them work for you rather than against you. It's not that different of a philosophy than what we all should be doing anyway, regardless of stocking. Just good enough is simply not good enough, as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks again for contributing to this thread. You have a lot to offer and constantly give me things to think about. I appreciate it. :thumb:


----------



## trimac

Wow! Awesome that you will have 350 gallon tank! Did you miss the part though where I mentioned I had a 1032 gallon pond on stand by :lol: I'm not talking about the fry getting eaten I am talking about when the fry are free swimming the pair will take up more territory to protect the fry-for example my brothers had a pair of cons in their 55 gallon when the fry were swimming the parents drove the fish to the other half of the tank-yes eventually they got eaten but for 3-4 months the other fish were constantly harassed-so Imagine Guapotes-crazy! I saw the pictures and I only saw 2-3 fish tops that looked big-talking about the image of your tank shot-and that was the jag and albino oscar-but heck if you have a 350 gallon tank on stand by you might be alright-by the way what will the dimensions be on that bad boy?


----------



## illy-d

Hey Terd I just wanted to say that I can fully understand why many experienced fishkeepers are outright predicting you will fail in this endeavor... However, for those that have predicted such a result I would also like to mention that many hobbyists are doing things today with success, that die-hard knowledgeable hobbyists of even 10 or 15 years ago thought was impossible... Which is why I am taking a 'wait and see' approach to this tank/thread...



> Watching my fishes' behavior for such periods puts me in a better position to predict what will happen in my tank than others on the other end of a computer in an interwebz forum, regardless of their decades of collective experience.


^I do take issue with this. As Nutcase stated this is a dangerous position to take and I feel that it could be the ruin of everything you've worked so hard to achieve in this tank... By dismissing the experiences of those who have gone before you, you are effectively blinding yourself with vanity... Scientists have a saying when referring to themselves and their work; "Standing on the shoulders of Giants" - they humbly acknowledge the work done by others that have gone before them and laid the groundwork for their success...

You will be much better off if you embrace the experiences of your critics. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best...


----------



## terd ferguson

trimac said:


> Wow! Awesome that you will have 350 gallon tank! Did you miss the part though where I mentioned I had a 1032 gallon pond on stand by :lol: I'm not talking about the fry getting eaten I am talking about when the fry are free swimming the pair will take up more territory to protect the fry-for example my brothers had a pair of cons in their 55 gallon when the fry were swimming the parents drove the fish to the other half of the tank-yes eventually they got eaten but for 3-4 months the other fish were constantly harassed-so Imagine Guapotes-crazy! I saw the pictures and I only saw 2-3 fish tops that looked big-talking about the image of your tank shot-and that was the jag and albino oscar-but heck if you have a 350 gallon tank on stand by you might be alright-by the way what will the dimensions be on that bad boy?


I know you've got the big pond  . From what I have seen and read, often times the parents will eat their fry when preparing to breed again to prevent competition for the new batch. Since these fishes lay eggs like clockwork once a month (usually at or near a full moon, by the way), I assume (maybe I'm wrong, it hasn't happened yet so I'm only really guessing here) that it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

I'll delve a little deeper so you understand where I base my guess. The eggs of loisellis, once laid take up to five days to hatch and then another three to five days to become wrigglers. It takes a little longer for them to become free swimming. Before they become free swimming, they will be well protected and well guarded by the parents in their nest. Since my fishes are very well fed and seem to respect each others' territories, I don't think that anyone will try and invade the parents' space to try and steal fry. Except for maybe the synodontis at night when the other fishes are sleeping. By the time the fry are free swimming, the parents will soon be preparing for their next spawn, taking care of any fry that may be left.

If I'm wrong (and I have been before), and there is a problem, I'll just suck out the fry.

You can't always tell just by pictures how big fishes are. Tank depths and widths are often deceiving when trying to judge true measurements. A real representation of their sizes and potential sizes when full grown can be had by reading what I've posted their sizes are and then comparing that to these fishes' respective profiles. And keep in mind that most profiles I've seen list their potential fully grown size as what they would reach in the wild. Fishes usually grow a little less in aquariums. For instance, I haven't seen many 20" jags in aquariums. Aside from that, of the ten potentially big fishes in my tank, seven have the realistic potential of being over one foot in length. Six out of those seven are either very very near one foot or are already much larger. I hope this puts it in better perspective.

The size of the new 350 is 96" long x 36" wide x 25" tall. It's a Tenecor acrylic tank with a lifetime guarantee. I won't be adding too many fishes to what I currently have, but I know for sure I'd like to get a grammodes or two.


----------



## Toby_H

Well I guess one thing Iâ€™ve missed is, what are you doing different from others?

Iâ€™m well aware of many of the â€œtechniquesâ€


----------



## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> Hey Terd I just wanted to say that I can fully understand why many experienced fishkeepers are outright predicting you will fail in this endeavor... However, for those that have predicted such a result I would also like to mention that many hobbyists are doing things today with success, that die-hard knowledgeable hobbyists of even 10 or 15 years ago thought was impossible... Which is why I am taking a 'wait and see' approach to this tank/thread...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Watching my fishes' behavior for such periods puts me in a better position to predict what will happen in my tank than others on the other end of a computer in an interwebz forum, regardless of their decades of collective experience.
> 
> 
> 
> ^I do take issue with this. As Nutcase stated this is a dangerous position to take and I feel that it could be the ruin of everything you've worked so hard to achieve in this tank... By dismissing the experiences of those who have gone before you, you are effectively blinding yourself with vanity... Scientists have a saying when referring to themselves and their work; "Standing on the shoulders of Giants" - they humbly acknowledge the work done by others that have gone before them and laid the groundwork for their success...
> 
> You will be much better off if you embrace the experiences of your critics. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best...
Click to expand...

Your first paragraph refers to what I've been saying all along.

I feel with your second paragraph that you've misunderstood me. I haven't dismissed anyone's experiences. I'm just having different experiences than some others have. I am far from arrogant. If it seems otherwise, it is because it is often hard to convey emotions through the typed words of interwebz forums. I certainly don't feel as if I'm smarter than anyone else here. I'm not here to prove anyone "wrong". I'm here because I love fishes and want to share what I'm doing and learning in the hopes that others may learn from my successes, failures, and/or mistakes.

The fact remains though, I do know my fishes' personalities better than anyone else here because I can observe them and they can't. They base their posts on experiences they've had with _different_ fishes, even though they may have been the same species. It all boils down to who knows better than me what is *actually going on in my tank*? No one in the interwebz as far as I know can see into my living room. What may or may not happen in the future I'll leave to gypsies and fortune tellers. :wink:

So, you see, it's not that I think I know more than others. It's just that I know _my_ fishes better than others.


----------



## Toby_H

So since you can feel whatâ€™s going on inside your body, do you have a better understanding of your internal organs than a doctor? Of course notâ€¦ thatâ€™s just sillyâ€¦

But why do you feel you can read a fish better than someone with many many years experience in keeping fish? Thatâ€™s just as sillyâ€¦

When I was younger I kept fish in sub par conditions and thatâ€™s all I had to compare them toâ€¦ So I thought they were â€œhappyâ€


----------



## terd ferguson

nc_nutcase said:


> Well I guess one thing Iâ€™ve missed is, what are you doing different from others?
> 
> Iâ€™m well aware of many of the â€œtechniquesâ€


----------



## Big Den

I am sure that this guy is actually writing this stuff to get a reaction from all of you, and I'm one of you. He wants the thread to go on and on for as long as possible. He had a thread deleted once before and started this one with an invitation to do the same. I personaly do not see any sense in what he has to say. Its contradiction after contradiction. Its not about keeping fish in harmony, its about him and his self opinionated veiws. If anyone was in a room with this guy listening to what he had to say I think someone would deck him. If he spoke to me like he is speaking to most of you, I would. I am 63 years old and have kept fish for 44 of those years. I have a tank now with jags, gt's and veija's in it, but I do not expect it to last forever without a problem, facts are facts, aggresive fish are aggresive, period.


----------



## Toby_H

When I was about 10 years old I had a 55 gal with 4 Oscars and 3 Pacuâ€¦ The fish looked healthy, grew, had good coloration, did not have clamped fins, rarely had disputesâ€¦ Of course the Pacu did not meet their full potential, but the Oscars did (10~12â€


----------



## terd ferguson

nc_nutcase said:


> So since you can feel whatâ€™s going on inside your body, do you have a better understanding of your internal organs than a doctor? Of course notâ€¦ thatâ€™s just sillyâ€¦
> 
> But why do you feel you can read a fish better than someone with many many years experience in keeping fish? Thatâ€™s just as sillyâ€¦
> 
> When I was younger I kept fish in sub par conditions and thatâ€™s all I had to compare them toâ€¦ So I thought they were â€œhappyâ€


----------



## terd ferguson

Big Den said:


> I am sure that this guy is actually writing this stuff to get a reaction from all of you, and I'm one of you. He wants the thread to go on and on for as long as possible. He had a thread deleted once before and started this one with an invitation to do the same. I personaly do not see any sense in what he has to say. Its contradiction after contradiction. Its not about keeping fish in harmony, its about him and his self opinionated veiws. If anyone was in a room with this guy listening to what he had to say I think someone would deck him. If he spoke to me like he is speaking to most of you, I would. I am 63 years old and have kept fish for 44 of those years. I have a tank now with jags, gt's and veija's in it, but I do not expect it to last forever without a problem, facts are facts, aggresive fish are aggresive, period.


You've got me all wrong mate. You can check me out on any number of forums I frequent (all under the name of "terd ferguson" or "terdferguson" to see that's this not the type of person I am. These include ar15.com, ak47.net. theakforum.net, glocktalk.com, binderbulletin.org (international harvesters), s2ki.com (S2000 forums), lightfighter.net (military forums), monsterfishkeepers.com, and if you do a google search of terd ferguson, you could probably find some more going way back I've forgotten about.

I'm sorry sir, but you couldn't be more wrong. Why would I go to so much trouble to get a rise out some fishkeeping strangers? What you're accusing me of is incorrect. Everyone is oppinionated, it just so happens that you don't agree with mine. That's what makes the world go round.

Cheers, mate. God save the queen, etc. :thumb:


----------



## Big Den

No I am not wrong. You love to get a rise out of people and I fell into the trap. Where do you get the time to look after your fish when you subscribe to so many forums.
"Cheers, mate. God save the queen, etc." And that statement only lowers my opinion of you.


----------



## Toby_H

> I'll give you a better analogy that may put it into better perspective. We've all seen the news stories of Pit Bulls chewing kids' faces off. That doesn't necessarily make Pit Bulls inherently dangerous as a species. A few bad apples ruins the barrel in this case.


Perfect exampleâ€¦ when the Pit Bulls are well cared for, they can be good dogsâ€¦ when they are forced into less than suitable conditions they are submissive to a point, then freak out in an explosion of aggressionâ€¦ which is exactly what Iâ€™m warning you to be prepared forâ€¦



> It doesn't take a genius to know whether or not there are problems in a tank.


You showed up at Cichlid-Forum stating you had 8.0 ppm of Ammonia and told us not to freak out that your fish are thrivingâ€¦ there was a problem in your tankâ€¦ you didnâ€™t see itâ€¦

Since the fish are not torn up from fightingâ€¦ you know they are not fightingâ€¦ but this is not an indicator of a lack of stressâ€¦



> An Pit Bull's owner is almost always in a better position to judge that animal's behavior than someone halfway accross the country who may have had bad Pit Bulls in the past.


I disagreeâ€¦ if I see a process that shows me that A + B = Câ€¦ and Iâ€™ve seen this process be proved true many many timesâ€¦ any you have identified A, then identified Bâ€¦ and are attempting to add them together for the first timeâ€¦ then I am much more likely to anticipate the resultsâ€¦



> I think your car/mechanic analogy isn't an accurate one either. In your analogy, you aren't as familiar with your car as would be your mechanic.


This is exactly my pointâ€¦ your 8 months of observing a single overstocked tank does not compare to the knowledge gained by experience that many many others haveâ€¦ Iâ€™ve watched overstocked tanks in my own home for yearsâ€¦ and Iâ€™ve watched under stocked tanks in my own home for years... I've watched them side by side to compare the differences... I know the differences in the fishâ€™s behavior in each situationâ€¦ you donâ€™t have this luxury.



> I am very familiar with my fishes, their behavior, their potential behavior, and their needs.


How do you know their potential behavior? Did you read it on the internet? We both know that isnâ€™t reliableâ€¦ and the subtleties can only be learned through observation and comparison.



> Each and every mod I've ever made to a vehicle was always the first time I'd ever done it.


But isnâ€™t it easier the second time? Also the mechanics of a car can be documented and taught much easier than the psychology of a fishâ€¦ therefore you had access to a far supperior guide. Also note with your cars you had a guide, read it, followed it and met with successâ€¦ But with your fish, you found the guide, took from it what you wanted, ignored the restâ€¦ Like youâ€™ve heard from the beginning, let the tank go a year with the fish as adults and you will (IMO/E) not meet successâ€¦ but I'll also have to admit here, this is my opinion and truly only time will tell.



> It's really not that complicated once you know theories of proper water and the rest.


A critical flawâ€¦ in the upcoming years youâ€™ll learn that â€œfish psychologyâ€


----------



## terd ferguson

nc_nutcase said:


> When I was about 10 years old I had a 55 gal with 4 Oscars and 3 Pacuâ€¦ The fish looked healthy, grew, had good coloration, did not have clamped fins, rarely had disputesâ€¦ Of course the Pacu did not meet their full potential, but the Oscars did (10~12â€


----------



## terd ferguson

nc_nutcase said:


> I'll give you a better analogy that may put it into better perspective. We've all seen the news stories of Pit Bulls chewing kids' faces off. That doesn't necessarily make Pit Bulls inherently dangerous as a species. A few bad apples ruins the barrel in this case.
> 
> 
> 
> Perfect exampleâ€¦ when the Pit Bulls are well cared for, they can be good dogsâ€¦ when they are forced into less than suitable conditions they are submissive to a point, then freak out in an explosion of aggressionâ€¦ which is exactly what Iâ€™m warning you to be prepared forâ€¦
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't take a genius to know whether or not there are problems in a tank.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You showed up at Cichlid-Forum stating you had 8.0 ppm of Ammonia and told us not to freak out that your fish are thrivingâ€¦ there was a problem in your tankâ€¦ you didnâ€™t see itâ€¦
> 
> Since the fish are not torn up from fightingâ€¦ you know they are not fightingâ€¦ but this is not an indicator of a lack of stressâ€¦
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An Pit Bull's owner is almost always in a better position to judge that animal's behavior than someone halfway accross the country who may have had bad Pit Bulls in the past.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I disagreeâ€¦ if I see a process that shows me that A + B = Câ€¦ and Iâ€™ve seen this process be proved true many many timesâ€¦ any you have identified A, then identified Bâ€¦ and are attempting to add them together for the first timeâ€¦ then I am much more likely to anticipate the resultsâ€¦
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think your car/mechanic analogy isn't an accurate one either. In your analogy, you aren't as familiar with your car as would be your mechanic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is exactly my pointâ€¦ your 8 months of observing a single overstocked tank does not compare to the knowledge gained by experience that many many others haveâ€¦ Iâ€™ve watched overstocked tanks in my own home for yearsâ€¦ and Iâ€™ve watched under stocked tanks in my own home for years... I've watched them side by side to compare the differences... I know the differences in the fishâ€™s behavior in each situationâ€¦ you donâ€™t have this luxury.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am very familiar with my fishes, their behavior, their potential behavior, and their needs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How do you know their potential behavior? Did you read it on the internet? We both know that isnâ€™t reliableâ€¦ and the subtleties can only be learned through observation and comparison.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Each and every mod I've ever made to a vehicle was always the first time I'd ever done it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But isnâ€™t it easier the second time? Also the mechanics of a car can be documented and taught much easier than the psychology of a fishâ€¦ therefore you had access to a far supperior guide. Also note with your cars you had a guide, read it, followed it and met with successâ€¦ But with your fish, you found the guide, took from it what you wanted, ignored the restâ€¦ Like youâ€™ve heard from the beginning, let the tank go a year with the fish as adults and you will (IMO/E) not meet successâ€¦ but I'll also have to admit here, this is my opinion and truly only time will tell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's really not that complicated once you know theories of proper water and the rest.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

A critical flawâ€¦ in the upcoming years youâ€™ll learn that â€œfish psychologyâ€


----------



## Toby_H

â€¦and I will likewise conclude my debateâ€¦

I actually just PMâ€™ed Kevin (Terd) to insure this exchange is keeping a peaceful mood. We have a difference in opinion. If I disliked or disrespected everyone I have differences of opinions with Iâ€™d be one lonely SOB.

I still think he is wrong on the stocking ideaâ€¦ and he thinks Iâ€™m wrongâ€¦ Iâ€™m sure weâ€™ve each been wrong before and nothing is won nor gained if one of us proves right (or wrong).

What I did thoroughly enjoy over these last few pages was hearing the logic behind the theory, especially as I got to pick at it. I cannot say Iâ€™ve proven him wrong, nor can he say heâ€™s proven himself right. Since there is no finish line to cross no one will â€œwinâ€


----------



## terd ferguson

nc_nutcase said:


> â€¦and I will likewise conclude my debateâ€¦
> 
> I actually just PMâ€™ed Kevin (Terd) to insure this exchange is keeping a peaceful mood. We have a difference in opinion. If I disliked or disrespected everyone I have differences of opinions with Iâ€™d be one lonely SOB.
> 
> I still think he is wrong on the stocking ideaâ€¦ and he thinks Iâ€™m wrongâ€¦ Iâ€™m sure weâ€™ve each been wrong before and nothing is won nor gained if one of us proves right (or wrong).
> 
> What I did thoroughly enjoy over these last few pages was hearing the logic behind the theory, especially as I got to pick at it. I cannot say Iâ€™ve proven him wrong, nor can he say heâ€™s proven himself right. Since there is no finish line to cross no one will â€œwinâ€


----------



## illy-d

Hey Terd,

I for one am glad that this thread is up and running and receiving a lot of attention. You've been doing something right to get the fish to co-exist thus far - and I'm not going to dispute that because I feel the info & pictures you've provided back up your claim.

However, I do feel that your loiselles eating their eggs is a sign of stress. In fact I feel it's one of the clearest indicators of stress that a breeding pair of cichlids can exhibit... However A LOT of cichlids eat their spawns when they are young and inexperienced parents - and it's because of stress of course... Even breeding pairs that are left alone in a large aquarium or even the wild (I'm guessing with the wild as I've never witnessed it in person) that eat their eggs are stressed... Being a young parent is stressful... There is no way around that.

I don't know that I would be willing to put a number on how many eaten spawns it takes to conclude that the stress is from the environment or from being inexperienced (nutcase says 3 - but I think he's just trying to illustrate a point). What I can and will say is that I am 100% certain that they are eating their spawns due to some form of stress.

If you continue to dispute or deny that this is the case it could come back to haunt you - which would be a shame because you seem to have managed well thus far... I would hate for something like this to be the straw that broke the camels back per se.

If you would be willing to entartain the idea of conducting an experiment you could probably quite easily determine if my experience & advice (and that of others) is worth listening to. If you have a 75g or 90g tank available to you I suggest placing the loiselles in this tank alone. If they spawn and don't eat their eggs on either the first or second attempt then I would think we can conclude that your big tank (with it's inhabitants) was the factor causing the stress... If they continue to eat their fry for another 3 or more times than I would conclude that the stress is not from the environment of the big tank and specific to this particular pair...


----------



## terd ferguson

Big Den said:


> No I am not wrong. You love to get a rise out of people and I fell into the trap. Where do you get the time to look after your fish when you subscribe to so many forums.
> "Cheers, mate. God save the queen, etc." And that statement only lowers my opinion of you.


Good sir, if you can't take me at my word when I state my reasons for starting this thread, then I invite you to no longer participate in it as you will only serve to rile yourself up along with me in the process. And for the record, I've been around the world three times. I've been to England twice. It's one of the perks having been married to a travel agent. But, in all those travels, I've never met as many abrasive, elitist personalities in one spot as I have here in two threads. And those people only add up to about 4 and nc_nutcase isn't one of them and neither are the majority of those who have posted in this thread.

But Big Den, keep posting and I'm sure this thread will end up gone like the last one. Again, it's just ponderous and sometimes a futile effort to use the interwebz.

I'm outta here for a while to clear my head. :thumb: Thanks to those who have appreciated what I've tried to do here. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> Hey Terd,
> 
> I for one am glad that this thread is up and running and receiving a lot of attention. You've been doing something right to get the fish to co-exist thus far - and I'm not going to dispute that because I feel the info & pictures you've provided back up your claim.
> 
> However, I do feel that your loiselles eating their eggs is a sign of stress. In fact I feel it's one of the clearest indicators of stress that a breeding pair of cichlids can exhibit... However A LOT of cichlids eat their spawns when they are young and inexperienced parents - and it's because of stress of course... Even breeding pairs that are left alone in a large aquarium or even the wild (I'm guessing with the wild as I've never witnessed it in person) that eat their eggs are stressed... Being a young parent is stressful... There is no way around that.
> 
> I don't know that I would be willing to put a number on how many eaten spawns it takes to conclude that the stress is from the environment or from being inexperienced (nutcase says 3 - but I think he's just trying to illustrate a point). What I can and will say is that I am 100% certain that they are eating their spawns due to some form of stress.
> 
> If you continue to dispute or deny that this is the case it could come back to haunt you - which would be a shame because you seem to have managed well thus far... I would hate for something like this to be the straw that broke the camels back per se.
> 
> If you would be willing to entartain the idea of conducting an experiment you could probably quite easily determine if my experience & advice (and that of others) is worth listening to. If you have a 75g or 90g tank available to you I suggest placing the loiselles in this tank alone. If they spawn and don't eat their eggs on either the first or second attempt then I would think we can conclude that your big tank (with it's inhabitants) was the factor causing the stress... If they continue to eat their fry for another 3 or more times than I would conclude that the stress is not from the environment of the big tank and specific to this particular pair...


I don't disagree with you and haven't denied or disputed that eating eggs can be a sign of stress. But that may or may not mean that the stress comes from overstocking. It could be as you described as new parents syndrome (my words to describe what you said). I can't ask the fishes. I did state that my tank was most likely not the most stress free way to breed fishes. Imagine trying to give birth to your child in a room full of tigers.

I am under no illusions. That is why, if you'll notice, I always use the phrase "so far" when refering to how things have been going in my tank. Thanks again for reading. :thumb:


----------



## Big Den

terd ferguson said:


> Big Den said:
> 
> 
> 
> No I am not wrong. You love to get a rise out of people and I fell into the trap. Where do you get the time to look after your fish when you subscribe to so many forums.
> "Cheers, mate. God save the queen, etc." And that statement only lowers my opinion of you.
> 
> 
> 
> Good sir, if you can't take me at my word when I state my reasons for starting this thread, then I invite you to no longer participate in it as you will only serve to rile yourself up along with me in the process. And for the record, I've been around the world three times. I've been to England twice. It's one of the perks having been married to a travel agent. But, in all those travels, I've never met as many abrasive, elitist personalities in one spot as I have here in two threads. And those people only add up to about 4 and nc_nutcase isn't one of them and neither are the majority of those who have posted in this thread.
> 
> But Big Den, keep posting and I'm sure this thread will end up gone like the last one. Again, it's just ponderous and sometimes a futile effort to use the interwebz.
> 
> I'm outta here for a while to clear my head. :thumb: Thanks to those who have appreciated what I've tried to do here. :thumb:
Click to expand...

What traveling around the world has to do with it I fail to see. Been to England twice? I am absolutely gobsmacked. Are you trying to impress me? I am honoured, round the world *twice*? was that in one go or did you stop to post a useless thread on one of your many forums? I think you are a sad lonely person and I can only sympathise with your plight. Man, you have got to get out more!


----------



## Big Den

terd ferguson said:


> Big Den said:
> 
> 
> 
> No I am not wrong. You love to get a rise out of people and I fell into the trap. Where do you get the time to look after your fish when you subscribe to so many forums.
> "Cheers, mate. God save the queen, etc." And that statement only lowers my opinion of you.
> 
> 
> 
> Good sir, if you can't take me at my word when I state my reasons for starting this thread, then I invite you to no longer participate in it as you will only serve to rile yourself up along with me in the process. And for the record, I've been around the world three times. I've been to England twice. It's one of the perks having been married to a travel agent. But, in all those travels, I've never met as many abrasive, elitist personalities in one spot as I have here in two threads. And those people only add up to about 4 and nc_nutcase isn't one of them and neither are the majority of those who have posted in this thread.
> 
> But Big Den, keep posting and I'm sure this thread will end up gone like the last one. Again, it's just ponderous and sometimes a futile effort to use the interwebz.
> 
> I'm outta here for a while to clear my head. :thumb: Thanks to those who have appreciated what I've tried to do here. :thumb:
Click to expand...

What traveling around the world has to do with it I fail to see. Been to England twice? I am absolutely gobsmacked. Are you trying to impress me? I am honoured, round the world *twice*? was that in one go or did you stop to post a useless thread on one of your many forums? I think you are a sad lonely person and I can only sympathise with your plight. Man, you have got to get out more!


----------



## terd ferguson

Big Den said:


> terd ferguson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big Den said:
> 
> 
> 
> No I am not wrong. You love to get a rise out of people and I fell into the trap. Where do you get the time to look after your fish when you subscribe to so many forums.
> "Cheers, mate. God save the queen, etc." And that statement only lowers my opinion of you.
> 
> 
> 
> Good sir, if you can't take me at my word when I state my reasons for starting this thread, then I invite you to no longer participate in it as you will only serve to rile yourself up along with me in the process. And for the record, I've been around the world three times. I've been to England twice. It's one of the perks having been married to a travel agent. But, in all those travels, I've never met as many abrasive, elitist personalities in one spot as I have here in two threads. And those people only add up to about 4 and nc_nutcase isn't one of them and neither are the majority of those who have posted in this thread.
> 
> But Big Den, keep posting and I'm sure this thread will end up gone like the last one. Again, it's just ponderous and sometimes a futile effort to use the interwebz.
> 
> I'm outta here for a while to clear my head. :thumb: Thanks to those who have appreciated what I've tried to do here. :thumb:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What traveling around the world has to do with it I fail to see. Been to England twice? I am absolutely gobsmacked. Are you trying to impress me? I am honoured, round the world *twice*? was that in one go or did you stop to post a useless thread on one of your many forums? I think you are a sad lonely person and I can only sympathise with your plight. Man, you have got to get out more!
Click to expand...

You've registered your opinion in this thread and the deleted one. Why would you keep wasting your obviously valuable time by visiting a useless thread just to insult and threaten me? Still bitter about that old Revolution, peasant farmers and all? Bell end. :thumb:


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## TheFishGuy

Please stop feeding the fire with comments like:

"I think you are a sad lonely person and I can only sympathise with your plight. Man, you have got to get out more!"

"Still bitter about that old Revolution, peasant farmers and all?"

Perfect examples of getting personal for no reason on a _fish_ site.

To everyone that posts in my folder; You've got to have thick skin to post. You've got to let things slide off your back and not get personal. When that happens that's when _I_ go on a rampage.

Enough.

Now back to the debate and my $.02

Kevin & Toby, I have read the past few pages and enjoyed them. Really, I did. As for the spawning and eating of the eggs I have two theories. 1, they're both female, or two they're eating their eggs to "protect" them. Meaning if the conditions aren't right weather it be water quality or too many predators present they will eat their eggs. I know this from experience, not from reading. As for the stocking levels.... It's not so much that the tank is over stocked, and it's not that I can't picture it because I have the exact same size tank and have tried it in the exact same size tank. Maybe not with the exact same species but darn close... My 185 is stainless steel. It measures 60"x24"x30" tall. I've had it for 18 years and a ton of fish have lived in it, it's one of my favorite tanks. (hence the having it for 18 years) I used to have your kind of time to be able to sit and watch my fish, now it's more like I get a chance to sit for about 30 minutes a week to observe.... But back when I had that time I pretty much quoted you word for word. I would tell these people from fish clubs that no one can possibly know my fish better than me, I watch them for hours a day! I know what pet peves they have, I know their territories down to the square inch, if I hear a sound from the tank from across the room I could have told you which fish it was! The tank went well for a long time, I'm not going to say how long because it was 18 years ago when I first got the 185 but I'd have to say it went well for about a year or so, give or take a few months... Here was the stock list, I remember it well.

11" pike cichlid, more than likely a belly crawler
12" common oscar
14" jaguar (more than likely male)
2-10" pink tilapia of some sort? :lol: 
2- texas roughly 9-10 inches
10" midas
8" male salvinii
2-14" plecos

Those were the actuall dimentions of the fish TL, I measured them as I pulled them out. A practice I started 20 or so years ago. Every time a fish gets moved or purchased or sold it gets measured and entered in a log. Oh yeah, and did I mention I'm a carpenter? :lol:

There were two survivors of that tank, one of the texas (who died a week later) and the jaguar. The jag was torn up, more than likely by the midas. I say that because I've tried on numorous occasions to keep midas and jags together with no long term success. And it's split 50/50 as to who comes out the victor. At any rate, all the killing took place within a four to five hour span. When I showed up the remaining texas was literally stuck in piece of decor, I had to break it to set him free. My prize oscar of the time was dead, I cried, a lot. I was mad because I chose to prove everyone wrong, yet I was the one who was wrong, they all told me it would happen yet I said to myself.... This tank is huge, you've got to be kidding me. I was a teenager and I knew everything :lol: All it took was one afternoon and the jag snapped, went crazy, he was the largest fish in the tank, show quality, but was down two notches in the chain of command. The oscar would allow the midas to feel as if he was in charge, but everyone knew the oscar ran the tank, the jag and the midas often battled half heartedly for second position on the totem pole, the jag would always back down, lowering his head in a submissive position... I think the midas just pushed him too hard that afternoon and here's my theory as to how it went down.

The jag more than likely crossed over the to the right side of the tank, which was where the midas patroled. Oddly enough their territories overlapped by about 3". The midas went in to protect his "half" of the tank and the jag more than likely turned to run. Now this is what I think happened because I knew these fish so well. Every time the jag would turn and run that was the end of it. This time I think the midas followed him into his territory, as to try and say "that's right buddy, it's _my_ tank!" That was his mistake because the jag never let anyone near his pipe. Never. And everyone respected that. After that it was all over for the midas, I'd bet my bottom dollar he was the first to go. Now the oscar was like the police man of the tank, constantly breaking up small arguments umungst the smaller fish and keeping the peace. Much like many of the oscars I've had since him. More than likely he was next on the list to get killed simply trying to break it up. It was more than likely at this point when the texas got stuck in the ceramic root. He was a coward... Now with those two gone it was more than likely a free for all with the jag. At some point someone got in some shots and tore him up pretty good, but he was still the victor. He was taken to our supplier and I didn't keep fish for about six months after that because I was so upset. Now here's the kicker, the fish, all of them except for the oscar grew up together from the average size of an inch. They started in a 55 and progressively moved up in tank size then were in the 185 for roughly a year together. They were the first "community" of cichlids I ever kept.

A few years later I tried it again with a similar stock. Jags, oscars and midas were always my favorites so I needed to try it again. The results were very close to the same but this time I was home and was able to pull the jag out, but was never able to keep it with another fish again. When a jag or in theory any guapote is forced into submission it will eventually snap and kill everything in site, proving it's dominance, proving its power because it feels it needs to. You can't suppress thousands of years of evolution, you just can't. I've accepted that, yet still choose to keep jaguars. I currently have four. A wild caught female, a stunted female and two juvies. My hope is that in a 14' tank I can get one of the four to coexist with other fish, namely oscars and midas. I'm not sure if it's going to work but my theory is size matters.

Listen, you can read all the books and internet forums you want, but the simple fact is you've got to experience it yourself. Every cichlid is different and will most definatelty have it's own personality. That's what makes it so hard to give advice about them. So I use my personal experiences to give that advice. And if I give advice from another source I give it credit and usually follow with "now this isn't my experience, it's what I've read or been told"

In this perticular situation I do have first hand experience a few times over. And no matter how much you think you know your fish Kevin, you don't, they _will_ suprise you time and time again. My hope is that you're able to get your stock into the 8' tank, and my hope is that one of those jags doesn't snap. But if I was forced to make a bet as to what's going to happen, I'd say one of your younger smaller jags will eventually have his way with the entire stock. I hope I'm wrong, I really do, because I wouldn't wish my experiences of keeping jags in "communities" on anyone. I love jags, but they are not meant for a community aquarium setting. That's my opinion backed up with my own personal experiences. Geeze, after reading this I feel like I need to go fish out my jags out of the 800 :lol: I just hope the 800 is big enough, because if not, then it's back to square one with me.

I wanted to share that with you and everyone if they choose to read my long winded post. I haven't told that story for a while because I tend to become very attatched to my oscars. The male was a breeder and the female died, he didn't eat for over four weeks and was on the verge of death. I put him in the community to hopefully perk him up and it worked like a charm. I think he thought the young fish in the tank were like his kids and he had to keep them in line, much like my most recent female that died. She was the same way...

Do with this story what you will, believe it or not I am trying to help.


----------



## DMWave45

Informative post TFG. I just thinking the same thing. No matter how much you think you know your fish, you can't really. I mean just think of how many seemingly completely normal people whose family would say they would never do anything bad suddenly snap and go kill a bunch of people. It sucks. but it's true. I really do hope it works out though and I think this is a cool thread. :thumb: 
Also, you have some sweet looking fish. :fish:


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## terd ferguson

TheFishGuy said:


> Please stop feeding the fire with comments like:
> 
> "I think you are a sad lonely person and I can only sympathise with your plight. Man, you have got to get out more!"
> 
> "Still bitter about that old Revolution, peasant farmers and all?"
> 
> ...snip...
> 
> Do with this story what you will, believe it or not I am trying to help.


I sincerely thank you for sharing this story. This is easily the most excellent post in this thread and the best story I've heard in a long time (except for losing your fishes, of course). It mirrors my story in nearly every way, it's almost eerie.

TFG, again, thank you. That was a really great post. :thumb:

And about the personal stuff, I really tried to be polite, I really did. It's hard to remain polite when someone continues to threaten, insult, and call me a liar. I am a man of my word and being called a liar is the worst kind of insult as far as I'm concerned. I promise to try harder to refrain from poking fun at Englishmen. Honestly, I was almost proud of myself for not taking it to another level like I did in the first thread after being called a liar. I thought it a lighthearted response to an insult. But, I live and learn.

Thank you again for your time and participation. Please feel free at any time to share more experiences about that tank or any other. I really loved reading it. :thumb:

***EDITED TO ADD***
Oh, and the loisellis are definately not both females. I am 100% certain of this. Water conditions are also not a factor. Either they are inexperienced or are protective/intimidated by the others as has been suggested by TFG and nc_nutcase.


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## terd ferguson

DMWave45 said:


> Informative post TFG. I just thinking the same thing. No matter how much you think you know your fish, you can't really. I mean just think of how many seemingly completely normal people whose family would say they would never do anything bad suddenly snap and go kill a bunch of people. It sucks. but it's true. I really do hope it works out though and I think this is a cool thread. :thumb:
> Also, you have some sweet looking fish. :fish:


At the end of the day, a tiger is still a tiger.


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## terd ferguson

Let me just add this little bit about the egg eating. I am eagerly awaiting the results of this realtively new breeding behavior from the jags. Whatever may happen, it will be very revealing. And I'm not making any predictions, I don't know what will happen.

And while I'm on the subject, I may as well let you guys know, there are still no eggs from the jags. The females breeding tube has been extended for a couple of days now. She skirts back and forth on a couple of different flat rocks as if she's laying eggs, but nothing comes out. All the while, Teeny keeps a close eye on her taking time to show off by swinging his head back and forth.

Thanks again to everyone who is keeping up with this. I do appreciate it. :thumb:


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## TheFishGuy

Admittedly I can say the water conditions my fish are kept in now compared to back then are far more superior, The tank had two fluval canisters running, a 30" bubble wall and a whisper three (or so it was called at the time) Geeze, I think I still have that spill filter :lol:

The funny thing is there was always a power struggle between the jag and midas from day one, but like I said, the jag ALWAYS backed down. He acted as if he knew he could take anything in the tank but respected the other fish. The best thing I can compare him to is the character the Rock played in the run down. He never used guns because bad things happened when he did, and at the end of the movie he used multiple guns.... and bad things sure did happen...

I love my fish, and wish I had more time to observe them, but with four kids, a wife, a dog, a tree house under construction, a 40' pile of limbs and brush to send through the chipper shredder, Monster Fish Rescue on the rise, 50-60 hours a week at work and side jobs time just doesn't allow it. But through that past experiences I've become a pretty decent judge as to who can go with whom. But I'm still learning lessons. For example. Three very very large oscars came in as a rescue. Two were put in my 185, one in my 240. The two in the 185 flared gills and showed off a bit to one another. So in order to lighten the bio load on the 240 I put two very passive midas in the 185 with the close to 14" oscars (13 and 3/4" to be exact) and the next day they had killed one of the oscars working as a team (both midas were male) and proceeded to damage the other. Needless to say I had to make a very painful phone call to the person who nominated me for animal planets hero of the year for the work I do with recueing large fish. I was embarrased, and shamed for killing his oscar because I made a poor judgement call. I put the midas in the 185 to hopefully spread the aggression amungst the two oscars and all I did was manage to kill and oscar this guy had for years.... I would have never imagined they would do that, heck, they were living with four oscars in a bare 240 and never once nipped! Lesson learned... no matter how well you think you know someone they constanly surprise you in some way or another.... BUT I think that's exactly why people keep large CA/SA cichlids because of that exact reason... They're constantly surprising you, keeping your attention, making you slowly fall in love with them... Now wonder why I love my wife so much, she's just like a cichlid! Hopefully she doesn't decide to kill me some day for spending all my "Free time" playing with my fish as she likes to say or posting on forums all night :dancing:


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## Big Vine

TFG...excellent posts. :thumb:
I was totally fascinated when I read over those experiences you just shared. Some really good reasons there for why folks need to really respect the fish they are keeping and stay mindful of what those fish are capable of.

I'm just curious to know what you would do differently if you could go back in time and had another chance at choosing target-fish for those oscar rescues you put in the 185 gal.
Looking back, do you think it would have been safe to use just one of the smaller midas for this purpose? Or would even one be too risky? Best to use something else, such as convicts, just to be on the 'safe' side? Do you think the outcome would have been different if the oscars had different personalities, or would that have really made a difference in terms of ensuring their survival (i.e. their ability to withstand and fend off bullying from the midas)?

I'm sorry about the loss, and my intention certainly isn't to keep raking you over the coals about it. I just want to get some further insights for my own selfish reasons (being a fellow oscar-keeper), but also I think it would be of benefit for others as well.

BV


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## terd ferguson

Big Vine said:


> TFG...excellent posts. :thumb:
> I was totally fascinated when I read over those experiences you just shared. Some really good reasons there for why folks need to really respect the fish they are keeping and stay mindful of what those fish are capable of.
> 
> I'm just curious to know what you would do differently if you could go back in time and had another chance at choosing target-fish for those oscar rescues you put in the 185 gal.
> Looking back, do you think it would have been safe to use just one of the smaller midas for this purpose? Or would even one be too risky? Best to use something else, such as convicts, just to be on the 'safe' side? Do you think the outcome would have been different if the oscars had different personalities, or would that have really made a difference in terms of ensuring their survival (i.e. their ability to withstand and fend off bullying from the midas)?
> 
> I'm sorry about the loss, and my intention certainly isn't to keep raking you over the coals about it. I just want to get some further insights for my own selfish reasons (being a fellow oscar-keeper), but also I think it would be of benefit for others as well.
> 
> BV


I too would like to hear about this.

Also, I seem to see a common thread in CA/SA murder stories. It always seems to involve a midas or red devil. As much as I like them, this is the main reason I chose not to have on or both of these in my tank. TFG, do you think things would have turned out differently in both of the cases you described without the midas? This is something I've thought about and would like to hear others' thoughts as well.


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## TheFishGuy

If I were to go back I'd have done the same thing. The midas are much smaller than the oscars, and like I said, were very mild mannered. It would have been very hard to catch convicts out of the 800 to use as dithers for the oscars. I assumed that the oscars would have joined forces to annoy the midas, since the midas stayed out of the oscars way in the 240 I figured the same thing would happen. My thought was they'd target the midas not each other. It seems as if the midas figured hey, these are new fish let's test their stamina.... At the time I thought about putting my bocourti in with them as they too are rather passive, but I thought they might be too passive... Currently the two 11" bocourti are in the 800 with all the smaller fish and doing just fine with them...

As far as midas are concerned in my opinion from my experiences with them I've never had one go nuts on a tank. That's not to say it wouldn't happen, or won't happen here but it hasn't thus far... I think in the four times I tried to keep midas with jags it's the midas seeing the potential in the jag and attempting to put it in its place right off the bat. Then the jag just can't take it anymore... BUT, for the average aquarist who doesn't have tanks ranging in the size of mine the midas and jag are not community cichlid fish. Both have been known to snap. They're best kept as wet pets...


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## trimac

Alright here's my two "pesos" worth! I don't think people get upset with your set-up I think it is the way you "sometimes" state things. For example on another thread you stated that you had 15 convicts in a 10 gallon tank-and the way you stated it offended me. Why? Because we all know having 15 convicts in a 10 gallon tank is crazy-that is a statement you would make to someone who knows nothing of the hobby-so when you made that statement it is like questioning peoples intelligence. For example, I have a Male Dovii and Male Umbee through years of experience and research I should not be attempting this I mean trying to put two of the baddest cichlids in an 8 foot tank sounds absurd. But, I feel I have a chance with careful planning and years of experience. However, I am not going to make statements implying that I am successful just because I have had these fish for maybe 3 months together. I know it is not your intention but at times you come off that way and I think it gets under people's skin. And yes I agrree with illy-d and others that just because you spend hours watching your fish doesn't mean you know them or what will happen as compared to others like myself who have had years of experience. Take for example my Chihuahua-I know what he likes, dislikes etc, but if he got sick would I know how to better diagnose him than compared to a veterenarian-No way!
And please stop referring to the thread that got deleted. Not only that you said that in all the other forums your name stays the same "Terd" we'll if that is so I never stated you were full of " " cause the guy or gal I stated that to was not named "Terd" I do like though the last 3 pages or so because it has been a healthy and respected debate and I hope Terd that you and I can bury the hatchet and agree to disagree on certain ideas of fish keeping :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

trimac said:


> Alright here's my two "pesos" worth! I don't think people get upset with your set-up I think it is the way you "sometimes" state things. For example on another thread you stated that you had 15 convicts in a 10 gallon tank-and the way you stated it offended me. Why? Because we all know having 15 convicts in a 10 gallon tank is crazy-that is a statement you would make to someone who knows nothing of the hobby-so when you made that statement it is like questioning peoples intelligence. For example, I have a Male Dovii and Male Umbee through years of experience and research I should not be attempting this I mean trying to put two of the baddest cichlids in an 8 foot tank sounds absurd. But, I feel I have a chance with careful planning and years of experience. However, I am not going to make statements implying that I am successful just because I have had these fish for maybe 3 months together. I know it is not your intention but at times you come off that way and I think it gets under people's skin. And yes I agrree with illy-d and others that just because you spend hours watching your fish doesn't mean you know them or what will happen as compared to others like myself who have had years of experience. Take for example my Chihuahua-I know what he likes, dislikes etc, but if he got sick would I know how to better diagnose him than compared to a veterenarian-No way!
> And please stop referring to the thread that got deleted. Not only that you said that in all the other forums your name stays the same "Terd" we'll if that is so I never stated you were full of " " cause the guy or gal I stated that to was not named "Terd" I do like though the last 3 pages or so because it has been a healthy and respected debate and I hope Terd that you and I can bury the hatchet and agree to disagree on certain ideas of fish keeping :thumb:


The convicts in that tank are tiny. I was waiting to get a pair or two and turn the rest loose. And, I believe I've stated about a thousand times in this thread that people shouldn't attempt to duplicate what I'm doing. So what's the real problem?

And I can post a link to your locked thread on MFK where you said I was "full of ---" if you like. I'm all for burying the hatchet but you have a way of talking down to people based on your years of experience that comes off more as abrasive than helpful. Maybe you should rethink the way _you_ say things.

I strive to represent honestly what goes on in my tank and the hurdles I've overcome to be where I am right now. I state over and over that this is not to be considered advice. You act as if I'm advocating this setup for anyone and everyone because it has worked for me so far. This thread is not solely designed for people thinking about a predatory community tank. There is lots of other info in here that will benefit any SA/CA cichlid keeper. Think of this thread as more of a journal to record my experiences rather than a debate as to whether or not what I'm doing is right or wrong. That's what I tried to explain in the very first post. You had this very same argument with another member here two years ago.

So, long story short, stay in your lane and we will not have any problems. At the end of the day, you and I are doing the same thing. That is, keeping fishes together that shouldn't normally be together.


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## thetim6

Hey I didn't forget about you dude, I've just been swamped with school work and studying for finals. Tomorrow I'll test the pH in the morning before class right before lights on and then again right before lights out tomorrow night. I'll test each tank twice and I'll test multiple tanks (planted vs. not planted.) It will be interesting to see the results.


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## trimac

You have to understand that even though your thread is to base experiences with your tank-that it does not neccessariy mean people are not going to question your set-up-I am just blunt-that is the way I am-anyways I must admit I enjoy debating with you-cause honestly you make some good points-but I do agree on illy-d's theory on why your fish are eating the eggs-what plans do you have if one day the Jags breed-they are known to be really psycho when they breed?


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## terd ferguson

thetim6 said:


> Hey I didn't forget about you dude, I've just been swamped with school work and studying for finals. Tomorrow I'll test the pH in the morning before class right before lights on and then again right before lights out tomorrow night. I'll test each tank twice and I'll test multiple tanks (planted vs. not planted.) It will be interesting to see the results.


I'm looking forward to finding out your results. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

trimac said:


> You have to understand that even though your thread is to base experiences with your tank-that it does not neccessariy mean people are not going to question your set-up-I am just blunt-that is the way I am-anyways I must admit I enjoy debating with you-cause honestly you make some good points-but I do agree on illy-d's theory on why your fish are eating the eggs-what plans do you have if one day the Jags breed-they are known to be really psycho when they breed?


I understand what you're saying, but this thread is not a thread entitled "am I right or wrong in overstocking". The deleted thread devolved into that and that's why it's no longer around. This is a thread to record my experiences with this tank, like a journal. I really thought i made that clear in the first post of this thread. It's not that I don't want others to offer their experiences. That's not the case. I just don't want 155 posts that say "this'll never work" clogging up the information being provided. It's just not neccessary. We all know there are many here who feel this won't work. I'm not trying to prove those people wrong or trying to change their minds. I'm just offering my experiences, good or bad.

If the jags (or loisellis, for that matter) have fry and it becomes a problem, I'll suck out the fry and offer them to friends and a couple of local shops. If they have fry and it doesn't seem to be a problem, nature will take it's course. they will most likely be eaten or survive. If any survive, I'll offer them to friends and a couple of local shops, because as you know, I'm already pretty full.


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## Toby_H

That is assuming the Jags do not turn the tank into a conducive breeding environment... by killing all the potential threats to their fry...

I personally have no problem with you doing what your doing... and I don't get the feeling Trimac nor others do either... I also understand you have stated many times that you do not suggest others try what you are trying...

But people will still read your thread, think it's a good idea and attempt to duplicate it. Someone saying "it's okay for me to do this but it's not okay for you to do it" just doesn't work. What does work is experienced members posting their similar experiences and opinions based on experience to let readers know why they shouldnâ€™t try it... which is because it doesn't work...

Why do you suggest they do not try it? Because it takes a ton of hard work... a ton of luck... and is still more than likely going to end up a big loss... We are being discouraging to you for the exact same reasons you are discouraging others from duplicating your tank...

To say we are being jerksâ€¦ is to also admit your being a jerkâ€¦ although I donâ€™t think either of us are being jerksâ€¦


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## terd ferguson

nc_nutcase said:


> That is assuming the Jags do not turn the tank into a conducive breeding environment... by killing all the potential threats to their fry...
> 
> I personally have no problem with you doing what your doing... and I don't get the feeling Trimac nor others do either... I also understand you have stated many times that you do not suggest others try what you are trying...
> 
> But people will still read your thread, think it's a good idea and attempt to duplicate it. Someone saying "it's okay for me to do this but it's not okay for you to do it" just doesn't work. What does work is experienced members posting their similar experiences and opinions based on experience to let readers know why they shouldnâ€™t try it... which is because it doesn't work...
> 
> Why do you suggest they do not try it? Because it takes a ton of hard work... a ton of luck... and is still more than likely going to end up a big loss... We are being discouraging to you for the exact same reasons you are discouraging others from duplicating your tank...
> 
> To say we are being jerksâ€¦ is to also admit your being a jerkâ€¦ although I donâ€™t think either of us are being jerksâ€¦


If the jags start a bunch of static from or because of their breeding, I'll remove the female. She wasn't part of my original plan in the beginning anyway. I'll either find a good home for her or put her in her own tank.

I understand the "do as I say and not as I do" sentiment. The main reason I would discourage it is because of time involved. Most average hobbyists don't want to spend an hour a day feeding, more time to prepare frozen foods, refilling a gallon of evaporated water in the sump three times a day, and two and a half hours (or more) per week doing water changes. Etc. And if they aren't willing to do these things, they will fail. And I don't want to see anyone fail and lose fishes in the process.

It's not because I think I'm better than them (or anyone for that matter) and I know you haven't suggested this. It's just that I happen to be lucky enough to be a stay-at-home dad with that kind of time on my hands.

Besides that, it's very risky. Risky in that these fishes are very territorial (I'm not talking to you specifically Toby, I know you know these things). Risky in that these fishes have the capability to wreak havoc and destroy everything else living in the tank on any given day. I don't encourage these kinds of risks, even though I am personally taking these risks. There may be a small percentage of people who may succeed in doing this. If I were to encourage this, the vast majority of failures would easily outweigh the small successes in terms of both loss of life of fishes and people who may be turned off of the hobby. These are not my goals with this tank or this thread.

I haven't called anyone a jerk for suggesting that this just isn't possible. I have called people jerks (and worse) for being disrespectful, attacking me personally, and making threats. To give an example, Big Den made lovely comments on the first couple of pages and then out of nowhere, 9 pages later, runs me down personally and says he would "deck me". And I didn't even respond harshly to that. Sure, I made a Revolution joke (with him being British and all). But, he started it. 

The bottom line is, I don't criticize anyone (personally or otherwise) for their theories or methodology in keeping fishes. I expect the same respect. But, I am a grown man with little patience for being attacked personally because someone doesn't like what I'm doing in my fishtank. If someone else starts static, it is hard for me not to respond. I try and respond politely first. But ,if they keep it up, I'm only human. And you end up with the thread being locked and/or deleted, thereby ruining it for everyone. That is why I discourage the "it'll never work/yes it will" debate in this thread. It only leads to heartache.


----------



## Toby_H

Well darn it Kevin... I don't like what your doing in your fish tank... but you still seem like a cool guy...

No need to disrespect, logical debate goes much further and is much more likely to be read by others... I agree with you there 100%...

PS - I've not taken anything you said in this thread personally... and I hope the reverse is true as well...

(I wish our politicians could learn to debate as well as we have here )


----------



## terd ferguson

Here's the specs of the new tank...










It should be here in about 4 weeks. Like I said, it's made by Tenecor and will be acrylic and the dimensions equate to 357 US Gallons. You can click on the picture to view it larger.


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## TheFishGuy

Aren't they more expensive than glass tanks now considering they're a petroleum product? Just curious as to why you went that route? (I personally like my DIY tanks and glass tanks, But I'm a cheap s.o.b.)


----------



## terd ferguson

TheFishGuy said:


> Aren't they more expensive than glass tanks now considering they're a petroleum product? Just curious as to why you went that route? (I personally like my DIY tanks and glass tanks, But I'm a cheap s.o.b.)


Actually, it's funny you ask that. The price of acrylic tanks is supposed to go up May 1st due to it being a petroleum product. At least that's what fishtanksdirect.com told me. I'm sure they're being honest, I wasn't on the fence as to whether or not to purchase and the price of oil is getting higher each week.

The advantages that acrylic has for me is it's 1/2 the weight of glass, stronger than glass, with the seams chemically welded the seams are stronger than the acrylic, and Tenecor's LIFETIME WARRANTY against breakage. The warranty and weight were the deciding factors. My 190 is definately over 400 pounds empty. I can imagine a 300g glass tank would be at least 600 pounds and probably more. That's just more than I'm able to move with the resources I have at my disposal. The acrylic 350g will likely weigh less than my glass 190g.

Glasscages tanks may seem cheaper at first glance. But, then you have to add in overflow boxes, lids, and shipping to a town near you plus a big truck or trailer to get it home. By the time you factor that stuff in, a glasscages 300g (96x24x24) is over $1,700 and that's not including renting a truck or trailer to get it home. And it only has a 90 day warranty. I didn't pay too much more than that for this Tenecor with the lifetime warranty, free shipping, and it will be delivered to my house.

I know this sounds like a contradiction (buying a big new tank), but I'm cheap too. I got the 190 as a probable leaker for a Craftsman Tool Chest trade. I paid $60 for the tool chest from my neighbor. I didn't get to find out if it leaked or not. My neighbor dropped his end helping me carry the tank in the house. I had to buy the big pane and replace it and went ahead and took the whole thing apart and resealed it.

All things considered, this Tenecor acrylic was the way to go for me if I was going to have a really big tank and no headaches. :thumb:


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## Splash55

I love the way you take care of your fish and understand their individuale needs.I realize that this set up would not work for your average aquarist. Takes a lot of patience and knowledge of the fish your are dealing with. I enjoyed reading this thread very much. :dancing: :fish:


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## swamptrout

terd, what have you got the driftwood at the top stuck to?
looks good and something i would consider doing myself.


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## terd ferguson

Splash55 said:


> I love the way you take care of your fish and understand their individuale needs.I realize that this set up would not work for your average aquarist. Takes a lot of patience and knowledge of the fish your are dealing with. I enjoyed reading this thread very much. :dancing: :fish:


Thanks for reading. I'm glad you've enjoyed it so far.


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## terd ferguson

swamptrout said:


> terd, what have you got the driftwood at the top stuck to?
> looks good and something i would consider doing myself.


The driftwood at the top was originally attached to slate. The way it was attached, it wasn't going to sit right on the bottom. I figured I would remove the slate and it would sink and I could place it however I liked in the bottom. But, it wouldn't sink (and still won't). The bottom of the wood where it attached to the slate is flat. This flat part is up against the glass braces at the top of the tank. So, yeah, they're just floating. They're not attached in any way. Eventually, I'm sure they'll sink. I don't know how long that will take though.

With the new tank, I'll probably reattach them to the slate but in a different orientation so they'll look good. at the bottom.


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## terd ferguson

I need a favor. Read on and you'll see what I need help with. :thumb:

With the new tank coming in about a month, I'm starting to gather the supplies I'll need. This includes materials to build the stand, more decor like rocks and wood, etc.. I'm going to have sand in the new tank. I'm sure you guys saw the pics I posted of the tank I'd like to pay homage to with natural colored river sand and pebbles. Here's where I start to go back and forth.

I had black 3M ColorQuartz in the 55g some of these guys started out in. It had a black background with wood and plants and looked simply awesome. My wife mentioned to me last night how good that could look in the new tank. So, I got to thinking about it and now I'm going back and forth between the river sand and the ColorQuartz in black. The rest of the decor would still be natural with wood, rocks and plants.

So, what do you guys think. I'd like to hear some opinions. You've seen the pictures a couple of pages back of the river type sand. Here's a couple of pics of the 55 from when it was first set up...



















Help me decide which way to go. And thanks again for reading. :thumb:


----------



## Toby_H

Here are some of my related thoughtsâ€¦

I use Pool Filter Sand from Leslieâ€™s. Leslieâ€™s is a nationwide chain that has their own brand of pool supplies. Itâ€™s $8 for 50 lbs of â€˜naturalâ€™ looking tan sand, very consistent larger grains. The stuff washes up very easily compared to other brands of PFS and makes play sand look like dirt (IMO, no offense to PS users).

If you decide you want to go with the black sand look then 3M quartz is the way to go, but xxxx does it get expensive! So what I would suggest is to mix 60~70% black gravel with 30~40% black 3M Quartz. This will give the black look, will give the practicality of sand (debris stays on top) but will save you a bundle.

Lucky Stone is a landscaping center on Old Lancaster Rd in Pineville. I stop by there every 3~6 months and get cut rock. They have stone cut into brick shapes as well as cut flat like slate. I like the what they consider small pieces, usually what they consider scrap. Iâ€™ve picked up rock from there about 6~8 times over 4 years and have yet to pay for any of the scrap rock Iâ€™ve taken away (youâ€™ve seen my tanks so you have an idea of what I was getting, not small pieces at all for an aquarium, but for landscaping purposes they are tiny). I have started bringing them toys for their Christmas toy drive as payment.

I understand Lucky Stone is quite a drive from you, but Iâ€™m sure there are places on your end of town that could do the same, or if you have other reasons to come down this way.

Last thing, I plan to make a large purchase of Driftwood from Tedâ€™s Fishroom in the next month or so. His prices are real good and Iâ€™ll be getting a small (bulk) discount on top of that. I planned to get â€˜extraâ€™ and make it available to people in CAAS (our local fish club) so if you have any special requests let me know, here is his site - http://www.tedsfishroom.com/wp/driftwood

Note to everyone else - People in local fish clubs do things like this all the time to save each other money and share opportunities. In the last 4 years of being involved with them Iâ€™ve both given and received many of such opportunities and have made a couple friends along the way. To be a fishhead and not get involved with them (IME/O) is just crazy. And if there isnâ€™t oneâ€¦ start oneâ€¦


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## DMWave45

I like the colorquartz a lot but for these fish and the look you're going for I'd the the sand is definitely the way to go. I think it works best with the wood.


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## cage623

First off it is nice to see that everyone (for the most part) is back to getting along on this post. I have been reading it for a while now and thought that there were a few times that it might be locked.

IMO, I'd go with the sand. I love the look of a tank that is aquascaped so they look as natural as possible. I don't mind the look of the colorquartz but I think that when you are talking about a tank that is the size you are setting up that the sand would work better. Once again IMO, the colorquartz does not look as good on a very large scale. However, the sand with the natural decor done on a large scale can be truly amazing. I can't wait to follow the progress of your new tank and I hope that everything with your fish will continue to work out in that tank.


----------



## thetim6

This is the data I got from my experiment. I'm not surprised by the results, but I was surprised at how high all the pH's were. I checked my tap water and it's pH 8.0, this past summer it tested at pH 7.6. Either they changed something since then, or my test kit is bad.


----------



## terd ferguson

nc_nutcase said:


> Here are some of my related thoughtsâ€¦
> 
> I use Pool Filter Sand from Leslieâ€™s. Leslieâ€™s is a nationwide chain that has their own brand of pool supplies. Itâ€™s $8 for 50 lbs of â€˜naturalâ€™ looking tan sand, very consistent larger grains. The stuff washes up very easily compared to other brands of PFS and makes play sand look like dirt (IMO, no offense to PS users).
> 
> If you decide you want to go with the black sand look then 3M quartz is the way to go, but xxxx does it get expensive! So what I would suggest is to mix 60~70% black gravel with 30~40% black 3M Quartz. This will give the black look, will give the practicality of sand (debris stays on top) but will save you a bundle.
> 
> Lucky Stone is a landscaping center on Old Lancaster Rd in Pineville. I stop by there every 3~6 months and get cut rock. They have stone cut into brick shapes as well as cut flat like slate. I like the what they consider small pieces, usually what they consider scrap. Iâ€™ve picked up rock from there about 6~8 times over 4 years and have yet to pay for any of the scrap rock Iâ€™ve taken away (youâ€™ve seen my tanks so you have an idea of what I was getting, not small pieces at all for an aquarium, but for landscaping purposes they are tiny). I have started bringing them toys for their Christmas toy drive as payment.
> 
> I understand Lucky Stone is quite a drive from you, but Iâ€™m sure there are places on your end of town that could do the same, or if you have other reasons to come down this way.
> 
> Last thing, I plan to make a large purchase of Driftwood from Tedâ€™s Fishroom in the next month or so. His prices are real good and Iâ€™ll be getting a small (bulk) discount on top of that. I planned to get â€˜extraâ€™ and make it available to people in CAAS (our local fish club) so if you have any special requests let me know, here is his site - http://www.tedsfishroom.com/wp/driftwood
> 
> Note to everyone else - People in local fish clubs do things like this all the time to save each other money and share opportunities. In the last 4 years of being involved with them Iâ€™ve both given and received many of such opportunities and have made a couple friends along the way. To be a fishhead and not get involved with them (IME/O) is just crazy. And if there isnâ€™t oneâ€¦ start oneâ€¦


I've got pool filter sand in the current setup. I like it ok, but it's very "bright". The light reflecting off of it makes photos difficult, especially if the subject is near the bottom. If I don't go with black ColorQuartz, I'd like a more natural colored "river" type sand a little less white.

On this topic, does anyone know of any dangers in collecting some real river sand locally? Are there any precautions I can take other than washing it as you would pool filter sand or play sand?

And I definately need some of that wood. Just let me know when you need the money. And thanks again. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

DMWave45 said:


> I like the colorquartz a lot but for these fish and the look you're going for I'd the the sand is definitely the way to go. I think it works best with the wood.


Thanks for your opinion. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

cage623 said:


> First off it is nice to see that everyone (for the most part) is back to getting along on this post. I have been reading it for a while now and thought that there were a few times that it might be locked.
> 
> IMO, I'd go with the sand. I love the look of a tank that is aquascaped so they look as natural as possible. I don't mind the look of the colorquartz but I think that when you are talking about a tank that is the size you are setting up that the sand would work better. Once again IMO, the colorquartz does not look as good on a very large scale. However, the sand with the natural decor done on a large scale can be truly amazing. I can't wait to follow the progress of your new tank and I hope that everything with your fish will continue to work out in that tank.


I appreciate your opinion and thanks for sticking with this thread. I mostly agree with what you've said about the sand. My old 55 looked really good too though (in my opinion of course  ).


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## terd ferguson

thetim6 said:


> This is the data I got from my experiment. I'm not surprised by the results, but I was surprised at how high all the pH's were. I checked my tap water and it's pH 8.0, this past summer it tested at pH 7.6. Either they changed something since then, or my test kit is bad.


Thanks for going to the trouble to test and make a graph. It would seem to indicate that plants will lower the ph at night. Being that the heaviest planted tank in the test showed the largest variance, I wonder if the results on a heavily planted large tank would show an even greater variance.

But, thanks again and nice work on the graph. :thumb:


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## Rift485

Very nice graph I wasn't even aware of a pH cycle :thumb:


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## Toby_H

> On this topic, does anyone know of any dangers in collecting some real river sand locally? Are there any precautions I can take other than washing it as you would pool filter sand or play sand?


Locally collected sand is likely to have bacteria/parasites/etc in itâ€¦ The reptile people often take locally found sand and microwave it to kill everything. Iâ€™ve not tried this personally but it gets good reviews from them and seems to make sense. Just use the (not so) common sense ideas such as sifting through for metal (ya know thereâ€™s gold in these here parts) and let it cool downâ€¦ I would try a small sample and if all goes well increase from thereâ€¦


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## DMWave45

On the ph graph though the heaviest planted is the smallest tank and the least planted is the biggest tank right? I would think that a large tank would have less variation if it were to be heavily planted. But maybe not.


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## terd ferguson

nc_nutcase said:


> On this topic, does anyone know of any dangers in collecting some real river sand locally? Are there any precautions I can take other than washing it as you would pool filter sand or play sand?
> 
> 
> 
> Locally collected sand is likely to have bacteria/parasites/etc in itâ€¦ The reptile people often take locally found sand and microwave it to kill everything. Iâ€™ve not tried this personally but it gets good reviews from them and seems to make sense. Just use the (not so) common sense ideas such as sifting through for metal (ya know thereâ€™s gold in these here parts) and let it cool downâ€¦ I would try a small sample and if all goes well increase from thereâ€¦
Click to expand...

Microwaving 200 pounds of sand doesn't sound like all that much fun.


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## rmcder

A lot of people seem to swear on darker substrate to bring out the fishes' colors. Aesthetically? I think either one looks just fine.


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## Toby_H

terd ferguson said:


> Microwaving 200 pounds of sand doesn't sound like all that much fun.


I talk to a Tegu breeder who keeps 12" of local dirt/sand in each of his 4' x 8' breeding cages... he microwaves the substrate once a year in early summer to kill any mites/parasites/etc that got in the dirt in the spring time...

He suggests 20 lbs for 3 minutes... although I agree it's not quite a trip to carrowinds, it's not a trip to the dentist either...


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## DMWave45

What kind of microwave has a 20 LB capacity?


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## Toby_H

most kinds...

How many cubic feet is the interrior of your microwave? I have an averaged sized kitchen model that is 1.2 cubic feet...

I work in construction materials testing and happen to know that large grained sand has a dry weight of around 120 lbs... so 20 lbs would be 1/6 of a cubic foot...

For those who do not wish to trust the weights I quoted picture a 50 lb bag of sand... cut it in half then pull a couple more scoups out... I have bowls big enough to fit that into... bowls that would easily fit into my microwave...


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## DMWave45

WOW I'm stupid....for some reason I was thinking 20 gallons, I even wrote lbs. too. Haha oh well. Yeah 20 lbs makes sense I was just thinking,"My microwave probably has a one gallon capacity..."


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## Toby_H

easy mistake...


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## terd ferguson

nc_nutcase said:


> terd ferguson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Microwaving 200 pounds of sand doesn't sound like all that much fun.
> 
> 
> 
> I talk to a Tegu breeder who keeps 12" of local dirt/sand in each of his 4' x 8' breeding cages... he microwaves the substrate once a year in early summer to kill any mites/parasites/etc that got in the dirt in the spring time...
> 
> He suggests 20 lbs for 3 minutes... although I agree it's not quite a trip to carrowinds, it's not a trip to the dentist either...
Click to expand...

I had to google tegu. That's an awesome looking reptile. 

Twenty pounds for three minutes doesn't sound too bad. Thirty minutes of actual cooking time plus sand transfer from buckets to microwave. Two hundred pounds would probably only take a couple of hours start to finish (maybe?). Anyone who has cleaned ColorQuartz knows that it's no walk on the beach either. I think it took me a couple of hours to do 50 pounds, if I recall correctly.


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## terd ferguson

While I'm here I thought I'd let you guys know how the two new fishes are doing. The female motaguense is still in with the Africans. She's eating A LOT and seems to have put on an inch since I got her a couple of weeks ago. I use Hikari Cichlid BioGold almost exclusively in the African tank. At this rate, she should be big enough to go in the other tank in another couple of weeks.

The freddy is doing great as well. He gets on fine with everyone else. The male loiselli paid close attention to him for a couple of days after he went in. I think it's becuase they look really similar in pattern and shape. I think perhaps too that the loiselli wanted to make sure his mate would remain his.

The mangroves are still alive. They have a couple of brown spots on some leaves, but don't look like they're dying. I have increased the light on them to about 15 hours a day and lowered them a little so their roots are a little deeper. I thought maybe the roots may be a little too close to the surface. I'll have to wait and see if this makes any difference. I'm encouraged that they're not dead and/or dying yet.

Just thought I'd add, if you use the Hikari BioGold, you know it can be expensive. If you print out the page on PetSmart.com where it's $8.49 and take it your local store, they will pricematch their own website. They may not like it, but it is their store policy. Ask to see a manger if they give you any static. In my local store, it's supposed to be $19.99. That's a pretty big difference and can save you a ton of money. It is an awesome staple pellet. :thumb:


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## DMWave45

Thanks, good tip with the pellets. :thumb:


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## TheFishGuy

I use pond pellets for aggressive fish made by purina. $17.95 for a 50 pound bag  Very similar ingredients to tetras cichlid sticks :thumb:



> I have bowls big enough to fit that into... bowls that would easily fit into my microwave...


My wife just loves it when I take stuff out of the kitchen to use in the fish room


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## terd ferguson

TheFishGuy said:


> I use pond pellets for aggressive fish made by purina. $17.95 for a 50 pound bag  Very similar ingredients to tetras cichlid sticks :thumb:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have bowls big enough to fit that into... bowls that would easily fit into my microwave...
> 
> 
> 
> My wife just loves it when I take stuff out of the kitchen to use in the fish room
Click to expand...

With all the fish you have, you should own stock in Purina, lol.


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## TheFishGuy

Nah, 50# lasts about 6 months...


----------



## illy-d

In regards to sand...

I agreee black sand looks better and brings out the fishes colour. Partly because I think most of thes fish prefer a more subdued lighting - the black offers a sense of security where as the lighter sand reflects light and produces glare - thus the fish may lighten their colours and appear more washed out... Just my opinion I have no scientific data to back this up... However I just moved and didn't have time to set up my aquarium right away so my fish stayed in a white 7 gallon bucket with an AC filter & heater for 3 days - when I looked in the bucket to get them into the tank they were very washed out and had almost no colour at all.

That being said black sand has disadvantages too. Primarily cost and a close second is how much cleaning it takes..

Pool filter sand or silica sand used for sandblasting is by far the cleanest substrate I have ever used... Sure it's white & brite, but after drinking a couple of coronas and watching my C/A cichlids I feel like I'm back on the beach in Mexico!!! A real bonus is that this stuff is cheap!!! A buddy of mine paid more for his PFS at a Pool & Spa store so I suggest looking at a building supply store... Target brand silica sand for sand blasting cost me $9 for an 80lb bag.

The biggest risk with collecting sand has already been mentioned - parasites and organisms... Now, how many of these will be able to survive in temps of 80 - 82 degrees is hard to say... but why take the chance? If you collect your sand I would wash it, bleach it, bake it, and microwave it!!!

I like the suggestion of mixing the gravel with the sand - it will save you money and offer a 'natural' look as well IMO.

PS: It could take your driftwood years to get water logged enough to sink... it drifts because it's so bouyant obviously!!!


----------



## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> In regards to sand...
> 
> I agreee black sand looks better and brings out the fishes colour. Partly because I think most of thes fish prefer a more subdued lighting - the black offers a sense of security where as the lighter sand reflects light and produces glare - thus the fish may lighten their colours and appear more washed out... Just my opinion I have no scientific data to back this up... However I just moved and didn't have time to set up my aquarium right away so my fish stayed in a white 7 gallon bucket with an AC filter & heater for 3 days - when I looked in the bucket to get them into the tank they were very washed out and had almost no colour at all.
> 
> That being said black sand has disadvantages too. Primarily cost and a close second is how much cleaning it takes..
> 
> Pool filter sand or silica sand used for sandblasting is by far the cleanest substrate I have ever used... Sure it's white & brite, but after drinking a couple of coronas and watching my C/A cichlids I feel like I'm back on the beach in Mexico!!! A real bonus is that this stuff is cheap!!! A buddy of mine paid more for his PFS at a Pool & Spa store so I suggest looking at a building supply store... Target brand silica sand for sand blasting cost me $9 for an 80lb bag.
> 
> The biggest risk with collecting sand has already been mentioned - parasites and organisms... Now, how many of these will be able to survive in temps of 80 - 82 degrees is hard to say... but why take the chance? If you collect your sand I would wash it, bleach it, bake it, and microwave it!!!
> 
> I like the suggestion of mixing the gravel with the sand - it will save you money and offer a 'natural' look as well IMO.
> 
> PS: It could take your driftwood years to get water logged enough to sink... it drifts because it's so bouyant obviously!!!


Thanks. Those are all good points. I think I've pretty much decided on the black ColorQuartz. Mostly for how well the colors of the fishes looked in my old 55, the brightness of pool filter sand, and because of the risks associated with natural sand. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

Here's a little news for you guys. I was watching the tank yesterday and had what I thought may be a brilliant idea with regards to the ease in which acrylic tanks can get scratched. I thought to myself about the tear off film they use on NASCAR windshields and if that could be applicable to acrylic tanks. I live in Concord, NC which is pretty much the NASCAR capitol of the world. Almost all the teams have their shops here or very close by (Mooresville, NC).

I got on the phone to a buddy who is parts manager for Team Gannassi who sent me to the company that does the installs of the tear offs for all the race teams. The guy I spoke to happens to keep Oscars and Green Terrors, by the way. Small world and all.

He says it should definately work on the outside of the tank. The inside is a no go. For those unfamiliar with windshield tear offs, it is a clear film applied to the Lexan windshields of race cars that is as clear as glass. The Lexan windshields have the same drawbacks as acrylic tanks. That is, they scratch easily, but they're much lighter andd safer than lass (the same as us, no?). The film is applied much like window tint to the windshield (or fishtank in our case) except they use multiple layers (the tear off part). When it gets dirty and scratched from road debris during racing, they simply peel off a layer revealing a brand new clean and clear layer underneath.

The only potential drawback is that the "adhesive" only lasts so long. The guy I spoke to seems to think at least a year wouldn't be out of the question. I know what you're thinking, what's this going to cost? Well, he's going to call me back with more firm pricing for a larger sheet. But, to give you an idea, a standard NASCAR windshield sized piece of 30"x60" is around $50. He's going to give me a break for a larger piece and thinks it will be a little less than $100 installed for all three clear sides (excluding the back which is black acrylic) of this new tank. The measurements would be 14' long x 2' high. That's for the front and sides of the tank.

Now, I ask you this. Is $100 an unreasonable amount to insure that the outside of your acrylic tank (less if your tank is smaller than mine) won't get scratched for at least a year? I'm not sure, but I'm seriously considering it. I'll fill you guys in with more details when I get the call back. Stay tuned...


----------



## Toby_H

It's a very creative option and sounds like it will work well... I don't have any acrylic tanks except for a couple very small ones that haven't been set up for years... but I don't think scratches on the outside would really be much of a concern.

I've also read many times it is very easy to buff out scratches in acrylic... but you have to drain, clean and dry the inside to do so, but the outside can easily be done (or so I read).

Other large acrylic owners will be able to respond with more clarity of the importance... I'm just offering food for thought...


----------



## terd ferguson

nc_nutcase said:


> It's a very creative option and sounds like it will work well... I don't have any acrylic tanks except for a couple very small ones that haven't been set up for years... but I don't think scratches on the outside would really be much of a concern.
> 
> I've also read many times it is very easy to buff out scratches in acrylic... but you have to drain, clean and dry the inside to do so, but the outside can easily be done (or so I read).
> 
> Other large acrylic owners will be able to respond with more clarity of the importance... I'm just offering food for thought...


I've heard that you are able to clean up scratches on the inside without draining water and with the fishes in there. It's like wet sanding. But, I agree that inside scratches would be the main concern with an acrylic tank moreso than the outside. This wouldn't be able to protect the inside.

I talked to the tear off guy and the total cost for an exact size piece cut to fit is $155. So, I don't know if it's worth the expense. I don't have enough experience with acrylic (besides my sump which I haven't scratched) to know if it would be worth it. My gut says it's probably not necessary at that price. Maybe some other acrylic owners will weigh in on this subject.


----------



## DMWave45

I have never owned an acrylic tank so I can't say for sure but I think it wouldn't be worth it. How much scratching would even be occuring anyways. And like has been said it can be buffed out. If it were to last the lifetime of the tank maybe. but since it's only one year i'd say it's not.


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## terd ferguson

DMWave45 said:


> I have never owned an acrylic tank so I can't say for sure but I think it wouldn't be worth it. How much scratching would even be occuring anyways. And like has been said it can be buffed out. If it were to last the lifetime of the tank maybe. but since it's only one year i'd say it's not.


I think you pretty much summed it up perfectly. Maybe if it lasted longer or was cheaper...


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## terd ferguson

I have a small update to offer. In preperation for the new tank and the grammodes I'd like to add, I made another pickup. I got a 55g from my neighbor because he wanted to get rid of it. I also got two giant goldfish with it. I got the whole set up for the price of free.  I spent the last couple of days cleaning it up, it was filthy with algea. The goldfish seem healthy though and ate immediately after going in my pond.

I'm giving the 55 stand away on a local forum. The stand is quite ugly.  So, I'll build a simple stand for this and set it up and put the mota in there and the grammodes when I find some. I found some grammodes in an LFS, but they want $90 each for 4"ers. I'm not willing to pay that much. So, I'm still on the hunt.

I've also been gathering materials for the new 350g stand. I got some 7" LVL's (laminated veneer lumber for those of you who don't habla) for the base and top. I got these for free from the same neighbor. LVL's are much stronger than your typical 2x4 or 2x6 and are capable of withstanding a much greater force when on their edge. I'll need to pick up a couple of 2x6's, a couple of 2x4's, some construction adhesive, a couple of sheets of 3/4" plywood, and some screws and I'll be ready to start building the new stand.

The mota is eating like crazy and growing to match. The freddy is doing well in the big tank and is healing up nicely. The mangroves have sprouted new leaves so I guess they're doing fine too. All in all, it's been a pretty good week. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

Also, I'm going to try and get some good updated photos up soon. Stay tuned. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

The bulb in my UV sterilizer went out yesterday or the day before. It's only been 5 months. I would've thought it should last longer. :-? I've got a new bulb on the way, but with the lights on longer for the mangroves (and no UV) I can definately tell a difference with clarity and algea . The lights on the tank and the lights on the sump have been on the same switch for conveniance. I'm going to switch it so I can turn them on and off independently. I'll get the tank back to 10 hours a day and give the sump 15 hours a day opposite the tank.

Also, the little female jag has stopped acting like she wants to drop eggs. Perhaps she's still not quite ready. I also tried feeding live crickets over the weekend. I got a dozen and they were gone as soon as I dropped them in. I'll definately get more and add them into the rotation. The freddy is looking nicer each day. The female mota has nearly doubled in size and the orange is spreading and is much more intense. I'll get some new pics up soon, I've been a little busy. Three more weeks til the new tank gets here.


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## dwarfpike

I've never had multiple tanks so never used a UV myself, but from my reading in saltwater articles 6 months seems to be normal for continuous use. Though someone with more experience might pipe up.


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## Toby_H

I replace my UV bulbs yearly... I use them 24/7...

I've never had a UV bulb stop emitting light...

They loose their UV mojo after a year (some say less) but they still emit light after their mojo is gone...


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## terd ferguson

All has been well lately. The jags have successfully spawned. Still no problems to speak of so far. Time will tell what happens next. I'll keep you guys updated. Thanks again for reading.


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## illy-d

^That is a lot of EGGS!!!

opcorn:


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## cage623

Good thing you have that bigger tank coming! That is a ton of eggs. Congrats.


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## terd ferguson

cage623 said:


> Good thing you have that bigger tank coming! That is a ton of eggs. Congrats.


The new tank should be here in a couple of more weeks. But, there hasn't been any problems so far. While the jags are protective over their eggs, everybody else pretty much stays away from them. The daddy, Teeny, only leaves the eggs during feeding or to display (just fins, no gills) if someone gets too close. I've only caught the momma, Shorty, leaving them a couple of times for a split second to get a pellet. She's constantly cleaning the site, shooing away poop and the like. For her first time and being smallish, she's doing really well.

But, so far, everyone respects the couple's boundaries and doesn't bother them or the eggs. These eggs have lasted longer than any of the loiselli's spawns. So, I'm hopeful, but anything can happen.

Anybody need some jags?


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## Jaws

Your fish look fantastic for what I would consider crowded conditions. Have you had any spawns in the past?

I'll admit I'm a skeptic esp with fry on the way. Maybe your fish are docile.

Thanks for the thread.


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## terd ferguson

Jaws said:


> Your fish look fantastic for what I would consider crowded conditions. Have you had any spawns in the past?
> 
> I'll admit I'm a skeptic esp with fry on the way. Maybe your fish are docile.
> 
> Thanks for the thread.


Thanks. I take very good care of them. The loisellis have spawned a few times, but have always eaten the eggs. This is the first spawn for the jags. All the eggs are all still there, by the way. Maybe this will confirm or deny the earlier discussion as to a stressful enviornment causing the loisellis to eat their eggs versus being young parents not knowing what to do.

And you're not the only skeptic here, believe me.  But they are all docile. There hasn't been any aggressive behavior since the beginning. The only behavior I would characterize as aggressive is the male daddy jag extends all his fins when someone comes around the eggs and that is very very minor. There is no gill flaring or chasing or worse.

Thanks for reading. :thumb:


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## clgkag

How are the mangroves at reducing your nitrates? I heard you were doing this on another forum and didn't see any updates. Was looking to see how it worked before I tried it.


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## terd ferguson

clgkag said:


> How are the mangroves at reducing your nitrates? I heard you were doing this on another forum and didn't see any updates. Was looking to see how it worked before I tried it.


Nitrates have gone from 40ppm (before the mangroves) to 20ppm just before the weekly water change. This is with no other filtration changes. It didn't happen overnight, more like a steady decline (I wonder how far it'll go). So they seem to be working as they should. They are growing new leaves, but losing leaves at the same time. In other words, a new leaf (or two) will sprout and an old leaf will turn brown and fall off. I don't have enough experience with mangroves to know if this is normal. But, the fact that they're still alive with no special care other than regular florescent lighting is encouraging.

Sorry I haven't updated as much as I should with things like the mangroves. I've got some projects taking up a lot of my time. Getting all my stuff ready for the new tank and picking up a hardtail Triumph are mostly responsible (and me being a little lazy about posting). But thanks for reading and keeping up. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

I've got exciting news to share. The jag eggs are hatching as I type this. There is easily HUNDREDS of wigglers. The momma, Shorty, is scooping them up as they hatch and depositing them in a safer place but still very close to the eggs.

This should definately disprove the theory spoken about earlier that the loisellis were eating their eggs because the enviornment is too stressful for them to be allowed to hatch. The next couple of weeks should go a long way to prove or disprove my belief that this tank can work under a variety of circumstances (same species males, overstocked with aggressive fishes, SUCCESSFUL BREEDING, etc.).

With that said, there is still no aggression issues (and I've been watching extremely closely). Shorty is mainly concentrating on moving the wigglers as they hatch. Teeny is standing watch to make sure no one gets too close. But, as far as that goes, it's as if their tankmates understand somehow what is happening and are giving the new parents extra space. It's like a festivus miracle. But, honestly, I didn't expect it to be any different based on all their past behavior. They seem to somehow share a mutual respect for each other and their respective spaces (and I know that sounds kind of crazy, but the only other way to describe it would have to be sheer luck and I don't know anyone _that_ lucky, lol.).

This is by far the most exciting moment with this tank for me. Check out the photo below and click on it for a larger version. You can see in it and the earlier photo the two different colored eggs on the branch and slate it's attached to. The wigglers are the little gold spots (a third color different from the two different colored eggs) on the sand in between the two wood branches.










Now how many of you local guys want 100 or so jags? I'll need maybe ten of you to step up.    :thumb: opcorn:

Seriously, I'm on the fence as to what to do next. My first instinct is to leave them in there at least until they're free swimming and observe closely the dynamics of the tank. But, behavior so far indicates no problems. Obviously, I can't keep HUNDREDS of jags. I'm leaning towards probably putting them in a 55g by themselves when I think they're ready to be seperated and grow them out a little before handing them out to friends or taking them to all the local LFS's. But friends and LFS's can only take so many. As to the rest, ??? Trying to sell via the interwebz and shipping hundreds of jags a few here and there seems like a giant hassle. I'm open to suggestions. 

Thanks again for following my story. Today has been a great day (and i didn't even have to use my AK, lol). :thumb:


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## heylady

First, congrats on the wrigglers!! :thumb: Your jags are awesome and if my hubby would let me, I'd be begging for a couple of fry from you!!

I tend to agree with you on your theory of inexperienced parents being the reason behind the other fishes eating their own eggs. Some fish just need a few tries to get it right. (I should know as that darn texas of mine is _still_ eating the eggs... :roll: Every angel I've ever had needed multiple tries before it sinks in too)

Glad to hear the mangroves are doing well and that they are doing their job of reducing nitrates!!


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## TheFishGuy

Wonder if you could do something for me Terd?

Could you list (to the best of your ability) the pecking order in your tank?


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## terd ferguson

heylady said:


> First, congrats on the wrigglers!! :thumb: Your jags are awesome and if my hubby would let me, I'd be begging for a couple of fry from you!!
> 
> I tend to agree with you on your theory of inexperienced parents being the reason behind the other fishes eating their own eggs. Some fish just need a few tries to get it right. (I should know as that darn texas of mine is _still_ eating the eggs... :roll: Every angel I've ever had needed multiple tries before it sinks in too)
> 
> Glad to hear the mangroves are doing well and that they are doing their job of reducing nitrates!!


Thanks a lot. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

TheFishGuy said:


> Wonder if you could do something for me Terd?
> 
> Could you list (to the best of your ability) the pecking order in your tank?


No one really "rules" the tank if that's what you're asking. It's kind of like all the Parachromis share the top spot. The festae would be next with the GT at the bottom. It's like the Oscars are too dumb to be on the list (in a funny way). I guess you could say it's more like a democracy than a monarchy. I hope that makes sense.


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## terd ferguson

I thought I'd add a small update. All the eggs that are going to hatch have hatched. The momma, Shorty, has moved them all to a different spot into the back left hand corner of the tank. I think she feels they'll be safer there and she will be able to protect them better as they are surrounded on almost all sides by glass.

There's still no problems from the parents trying to protect their babies or from tankmates trying to eat babies. There's so many fry, it's like a solid wiggling mass in the corner of the tank. Anyway, just thought I'd let you guys know all is still well. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

Shorty has moved the fry again back to the original spot. :thumb:


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## TheFishGuy

They will move them quite a bit. Instead of cleaning one spot they clean the other spot and move the kids. Then when that house gets dirty they move em again and so on. It's during the moves when fry will get picked off...


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## terd ferguson

TheFishGuy said:


> They will move them quite a bit. Instead of cleaning one spot they clean the other spot and move the kids. Then when that house gets dirty they move em again and so on. It's during the moves when fry will get picked off...


The two places she's been moving them back and forth to are only a few inches apart. She's been able to maintain pretty good security in such a short distance. All the other tankmates are still giving the new parents plenty of room to conduct their business.

When is the soonest I can move the fry into another tank? I'm afraid if I wait until they're free swimming that it'll be harder to catch them. Caring for fry is still pretty new to me. I've only had a couple of African spawns and a couple of Convict spawns to practice. I stripped the Yellow Lab of her fry and raised them in a ten gallon. With the Convicts, I let them take care of it all. I'd like to keep as many of these jags as I can to grow out a little before trying to pass them off. Who thinks 400 or 500 jags will be ok in a 55g until they're about 1/2" or so?


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## TheFishGuy

The fry would be fine in a 55 till 1/2" given lots of water changes. But I'd wait till they're free swimming to move them. All you really need to do is get prepared with a bucket and a short length of hose. Then shut the lights off on the tank and in the room for an hour or so. Then come back in and quickly turn on the lights and siphon them out. Good luck though, ma and pa are gonna be fighting it every step of the way. Wear gloves :lol:


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## TheFishGuy

I should also mention that jags tend to be much larger versions of convicts. you will have trouble finding them homes and they will constantly spawn just like cons. Most pet stores will not be interested in them. Not in the quantity you'd like to move them. You might find your self just letting them go and letting nature take it's course because you'll have so many fry you won;t know what to do with them!


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## Toby_H

Itâ€™s rather easy for parents to guard wigglers as wigglers only need a couple of square inches of spaceâ€¦

But free swimmers need a couple cubic feet and this is far harder for the parents to offer when tank mates are around. If you let them hit this stage this is where I would expect problems. Keeping the tank well fed (over fed) often helps keep the tank mates too full to face off with the parents.

If you remove the fry as wigglers then you have to assume the responsibilities that the parents are now offering. This is mainly guarding (easily offered by you) and cleaning (a little more difficult). Iâ€™ve toyed with sponge filters and small powerheads to do this and quickly gave up. For me itâ€™s far easier to let the parents get them free swimmingâ€¦

At night the free swimmers collect in a little ball and the parents guard that ball. I usually wait about a half hour after lights out and either (like TFG said) flip the light on and suck out the little ball or do the same with a flashlight. I find it easiest to use a wide hose and siphon into a bucket that is only a little bit below the water level of the tank (keeping the siphon slow, not excessively slow, but definitely not violently fast).

I find that remove 100% of the fry often causes considerable aggression between the parents as well as toward tank mates. Therefore I usually leave about 50 or so fry with the parents to keep them occupied. Iâ€™d personally be nervous to keep free swimmers in your tank but the parents would need far less space for 50 than they would 1,000.

For me, when breeding in a community tank, feeding time is the fry snatching timeâ€¦

Best of luckâ€¦ and I agree your Jags breeding is putting your concept to the testâ€¦


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## terd ferguson

nc_nutcase said:


> Itâ€™s rather easy for parents to guard wigglers as wigglers only need a couple of square inches of spaceâ€¦
> 
> But free swimmers need a couple cubic feet and this is far harder for the parents to offer when tank mates are around. If you let them hit this stage this is where I would expect problems. Keeping the tank well fed (over fed) often helps keep the tank mates too full to face off with the parents.
> 
> If you remove the fry as wigglers then you have to assume the responsibilities that the parents are now offering. This is mainly guarding (easily offered by you) and cleaning (a little more difficult). Iâ€™ve toyed with sponge filters and small powerheads to do this and quickly gave up. For me itâ€™s far easier to let the parents get them free swimmingâ€¦
> 
> At night the free swimmers collect in a little ball and the parents guard that ball. I usually wait about a half hour after lights out and either (like TFG said) flip the light on and suck out the little ball or do the same with a flashlight. I find it easiest to use a wide hose and siphon into a bucket that is only a little bit below the water level of the tank (keeping the siphon slow, not excessively slow, but definitely not violently fast).
> 
> I find that remove 100% of the fry often causes considerable aggression between the parents as well as toward tank mates. Therefore I usually leave about 50 or so fry with the parents to keep them occupied. Iâ€™d personally be nervous to keep free swimmers in your tank but the parents would need far less space for 50 than they would 1,000.
> 
> For me, when breeding in a community tank, feeding time is the fry snatching timeâ€¦
> 
> Best of luckâ€¦ and I agree your Jags breeding is putting your concept to the testâ€¦


Thanks for the tips Toby and TheFishGuy. They are much appreciated. Things are still pretty much the same. Shorty's moved the fry a couple of more times back and forth between the same two spots. The fry are visibly growing. You can see eyes and tails. The others are still giving the parents plenty of room and seem to be going out of their way to stay out of the parents way. Time will tell what happens next.

Thanks again everyone for reading and following my story. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

A number of the fry have seperated themselves from the wiggling herd and are swimming on their own. My babies are all grownz up.


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## terd ferguson

I woke up this morning to about 500 free swimmers. 8) Still no problems, still no aggression. The tankmates are still giving the parents and fry plenty of room to feel safe. It's not like the parents are having to keep them away, the tankmates just seem to know what to do and how to act. With the two jags being brand new parents, they are doing an excellent job, unlike the loisellis' attempts.

Long story short, so far so good. Thanks again for reading. :thumb:


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## Big Vine

I've been following along, and I must say that I'm truly amazed.
It's almost beyond belief to imagine everyone still getting along in there amicably with a spawning pair of jags tending to free-swimming fry---I'd just about need to see it in person to believe it. Err...on second thought...got any video footage? lol 

Congrats on the luck you've been having so far!
Sure, you've gotta be doing a lot of things right for this to be working as well as it sounds, but man, you gotta know that sweet lady luck is on your side on this one. Hope she sticks around, lol. :dancing:

BV


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## illy-d

I'd love to see more photos myself! Have you started working on a stand for the new tank yet? If/when you do you should start a thread in the DIY section.

If your still considering syphoning out some of the fry I would do what nutcase suggests and leave some in... My former tenatn and myself used to do this with our breeding convicts and we both noticed that the fry that stay with the parents actually grew much faster than the fry we seperated off... In his case he put half the fry into a small growout tank and only fed them once a day with weekly or bi-weekly water changes (the same treatment his main tank got). In my case I syphoned the fry into a small growout tank and fed 3 or 4 times per day with 30% water changes twice weekly - our 'human raised fry' were smaller after 1 month then the fish raised fry in both cases (and his fry were roughly the same size as my fry - even though I thought I was providing better care - and more food... go figure).

Anyhow sorry for rambling. Great job so far and keep doing what your doing.

Cheers,

D


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## terd ferguson

Big Vine said:


> I've been following along, and I must say that I'm truly amazed.
> It's almost beyond belief to imagine everyone still getting along in there amicably with a spawning pair of jags tending to free-swimming fry---I'd just about need to see it in person to believe it. Err...on second thought...got any video footage? lol
> 
> Congrats on the luck you've been having so far!
> Sure, you've gotta be doing a lot of things right for this to be working as well as it sounds, but man, you gotta know that sweet lady luck is on your side on this one. Hope she sticks around, lol. :dancing:
> 
> BV


What's almost more amazing to me than what you speak of is that all the tankmates are keeping to one side of the tank to give the parents room. The parents didn't have to chase them there or keep chasing them away. And some of those fishes had "houses" near the jags' "house" where all the fry are now. It's like they moved in with their cousins on the opposite side of the tank. That's what I mean when I say I'm amazed- that is, that the others are so willing to share their territory to accomodate the jags.

Check them out. It's not some of my best photo work (I usually like to take photos at night with every light but tanklights out) and there's some reflection, but you get the idea...

Jags on one side...










Everyone else on the other side...










As far as luck goes, I can't honestly say that it's the main reason that this is working (although I'm sure it plays a small part). I mean, how long could this luck hold out and how could anyone be _that_ lucky (if that's what it was)? Two breeding pairs, one successful? Big, same species males (4 big male Parachromis)? Overstocked? Relatively small tank? Overfed with live foods included in their diets? Decorated tank with multiple terriitories to fight over? I honestly don't think luck could overcome all these situations. Maybe, just maybe, it's like I've said all along? Control your variables and make them work to your advantage and almost anything is possible. These are, at the end of the day, just fishes. They're not a savage 1%er biker gang coming to burn your town to the ground and rape your women.  That's not to say it's not a lot of work to make this happen, but, _it is happening and it can't be considered impossible_.

Thanks again to everyone following this thread. I appreciate it. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> I'd love to see more photos myself! Have you started working on a stand for the new tank yet? If/when you do you should start a thread in the DIY section.
> 
> If your still considering syphoning out some of the fry I would do what nutcase suggests and leave some in... My former tenatn and myself used to do this with our breeding convicts and we both noticed that the fry that stay with the parents actually grew much faster than the fry we seperated off... In his case he put half the fry into a small growout tank and only fed them once a day with weekly or bi-weekly water changes (the same treatment his main tank got). In my case I syphoned the fry into a small growout tank and fed 3 or 4 times per day with 30% water changes twice weekly - our 'human raised fry' were smaller after 1 month then the fish raised fry in both cases (and his fry were roughly the same size as my fry - even though I thought I was providing better care - and more food... go figure).
> 
> Anyhow sorry for rambling. Great job so far and keep doing what your doing.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> D


I haven't started building the new stand yet, although I have all the materials together to get started. I've been putting it off until the tank actually gets here in case there are any slight measurement discrepancies. I would hate to build an 8' stand only to find out the 8' tank length was inside measurements and be an inch short (or something similar). I'll certainly include a write up when I build it with pics, but it'll probably be in this thread. I think it'll be easier that way for those of you still following this thread.

Thanks for the tips and thanks for reading. :thumb:


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## illy-d

You know what just occurred to me - and it could be foolish thinking on my part, but one thing that is unique in your tank is the wood at the top... Everybody puts wood on the bottom to build caves & territories and the fish will seek these out for a peaceful refuge...

In your tank they have these massive 'roots' providing shelter from above (much like the bank of a river with overhanging branches) making the whole tank a sort of peacefule refuge...

I wonder if this helps at all? I mean I had 120w of light above my 6' 135 - which isn't much light from a planted tank perspective, but it was fairly bright... Once I added floating plants and they formed a carpet across the top of the tank my Jack Dempsey - which are famous for being skittish became much calmer. Not only did I see more of him, but he was far less protective over his cave on the left side of the tank and would allow my trio of clown loaches to bunk in there with him - which never happened early on in that tank's history...

Just a thought...


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## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> You know what just occurred to me - and it could be foolish thinking on my part, but one thing that is unique in your tank is the wood at the top... Everybody puts wood on the bottom to build caves & territories and the fish will seek these out for a peaceful refuge...
> 
> In your tank they have these massive 'roots' providing shelter from above (much like the bank of a river with overhanging branches) making the whole tank a sort of peacefule refuge...
> 
> I wonder if this helps at all? I mean I had 120w of light above my 6' 135 - which isn't much light from a planted tank perspective, but it was fairly bright... Once I added floating plants and they formed a carpet across the top of the tank my Jack Dempsey - which are famous for being skittish became much calmer. Not only did I see more of him, but he was far less protective over his cave on the left side of the tank and would allow my trio of clown loaches to bunk in there with him - which never happened early on in that tank's history...
> 
> Just a thought...


What you've said makes sense, although the wood wasn't on top from the beginning. I'm sure it helps. I like the added space it gives for more of a sense of seperation. It kind of doubles the tank's footprint, allowing spaces on the floor and near the surface for a fish to call home. That one lone Convict stays up in those crevices most of the day. In case anyone doesn't remember, there was a lone survivor from feeding Convict fry to the big boys. I've just left him in there since then. He's almost 4" now. I didn't want to put him in with the breeding Convicts because he was so much bigger than the rest. :thumb:


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## Big Vine

Nice photos! :thumb: 
I like that theory about the surface-level cover provided by the floating driftwood...makes sense that it would make everyone more comfortable. I've used fake floating pond lilly pads for the same effect, and it has worked well---especially back when I had juvie salvinis. Allowed them to hang out in the open much more without feeling so vulnerable. Plus it gave the younguns' a place to seek refuge when the best hidey-holes at the bottom of the tank were occupied by the older, more dominant fish.

BV


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## terd ferguson

Well, I woke up this morning to about 80% of the fry missing. Somebody must have had a pretty good meal overnight. But otherwise, everything's still fine.


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## Toby_H

Missing fry doesn't surprise me at all... although I am surprised that the parent's didn't put a hurting on the culprit...

I'd wish you luck but either luck isn't invovled or you've got plenty already...


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## terd ferguson

Turning the tank lights on this morning reveals only 11 fry left. Otherwise, everything's still fine.


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## Toby_H

Question:

Who is eating the fry?

I understand it seems to only happen at night so you may not be able to answer, but I think it would make a difference...

If the parents are eating them I would consider this improper behavior, although not uncommon for young parents. If they eat brood after brood of their own offspring, I think we could use that to conclude the environment does not cater to breeding.

If other fish are eating them and the parents are protecting the fry, but not killing the tankmates, I would consider this 'typical' behavior for a Cichlid Community setting.


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## terd ferguson

nc_nutcase said:



> Question:
> 
> Who is eating the fry?
> 
> I understand it seems to only happen at night so you may not be able to answer, but I think it would make a difference...
> 
> If the parents are eating them I would consider this improper behavior, although not uncommon for young parents. If they eat brood after brood of their own offspring, I think we could use that to conclude the environment does not cater to breeding.
> 
> If other fish are eating them and the parents are protecting the fry, but not killing the tankmates, I would consider this 'typical' behavior for a Cichlid Community setting.


I am almost positive the parents aren't the ones eating the fry. Their nearly perfect parental behavior is what makes me think it's someone else. Both parents are eating pellets at feeding time, although the female hasn't eaten a lot due to being more concerned with watching after her fry.

The fact that the fry only go missing at night leads me to believe it's more than likely the only nocturnal resident who is responsible, the synodontis. I think the parents haven't hurt the one responsible for the missing fry because they don't know who it is since it happens in complete darkness in the middle of the night when everyone's "asleep". I feel like if the parents were eating them, I would've witnessed it. The effort they put into caring for the fry also points to someone else being responsible.


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## TheFishGuy

I'm going to go with the parents being the ones eating the fry. They'll do it to protect them. The synodontis would have to be insane to try and break into the nest.

Actually, I'll even go as far as to guarantee it's the parents.


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## BlackShark11k

TheFishGuy said:


> I'm going to go with the parents being the ones eating the fry. They'll do it to protect them. The synodontis would have to be insane to try and break into the nest.
> 
> Actually, I'll even go as far as to guarantee it's the parents.


Hmmm.

Not so sure the syno wasn't who did it. Synos rob cichlid nest in the wild regularly.

Of course, I have never kept a syno and so i shouldn't be talking


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## terd ferguson

TheFishGuy said:


> I'm going to go with the parents being the ones eating the fry. They'll do it to protect them. The synodontis would have to be insane to try and break into the nest.
> 
> Actually, I'll even go as far as to guarantee it's the parents.


I'm going to have to disagree with you. While I haven't witnessed him eating jag fry, I have witnessed him eating loiselli eggs in the middle of the night. Every now and again, I'll shine a flashlight in the tank late at night. One of these times, while the loisellis were sleeping, the synodontis was getting his fill of eggs. The cichlids are inactive for the most part at night with no lights. The synodontis, on the other hand, is very active late at night. Since the fry are disappearing at night, I'm assuming the synodontis is the guilty party.

With the fry, the jags have literally half the tank to themselves with every one else sharing the other half. There isn't a threat of invasion by tankmates. Why the other cichlids don't bother the parents or fry, I don't know and quite frankly, it puzzles me.


----------



## DMWave45

It seems like it could be the syndontis but then again, how many fry were there? I guess they were still tiny though so it wouldn't be very much food even...


----------



## terd ferguson

DMWave45 said:


> It seems like it could be the syndontis but then again, how many fry were there? I guess they were still tiny though so it wouldn't be very much food even...


You bring up an excellent point and one I haven't thought about. Could the synodontis actually eat that many fry? Remember, the first night fry started to disappear. About 80% went missing. That's 80% of almost 1,000. That's a lot of fry at one time for a synodontis.

But, with this in mind, this proves at least that the mother (Shorty) can't be responsible. Here's how- Shorty's belly is sunken in from not eating at all during the egg stage and very, very little during the fry stage. Being as small as she is, that many fry at once would have definately made a difference in her belly size. Along with this, the daddy (Teeny) ate an incredible amount of food during the egg and fry stages.

So, thanks to you, I'm rethinking the synodontis being responsible. But, I still don't think it's the parents either. A good educated guess would be the one with the most insatiable appetite. That would be one or both of the Oscars.

Oh yeah, the 15 or so fry left (I recounted and got 15) are all gone as of this morning. There are none left that I can see. The possibility exists that there may be a couple in a nook or cranny somewhere. But for all intents and purposes, the fry have been wiped out. With that said, I still consider this a small success. Why? The jags successfully spawned, laid eggs, hatched them into 1,000 fry, and gave excellent parental care. Maybe the parents will learn from this experience and the next time, some fry will be able to survive.

In any case, all is still well. Thanks again for looking everyone. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

I just thought I'd add while I'm at it that the mangroves are still ok. The roots are growing and appear very healthy. They keep sprouting new leaves up top too. The mota is still in with the Africans. She has really put on some size. She's about 4" now. that growth doesn't reflect the massive increase in width and thickness she has put on though. Her colors are getting better and better as well. I'll probably move her in with the big guys when the new tank is set up which will hopefully be in the next couple of weeks. The original schedule I was given says that it should be ready to ship next week. I'll try and post some updated photos of the fishes and mangroves very soon.

Thanks again for reading. :thumb:


----------



## illy-d

*terd ferguson wrote:*


> Maybe the parents will learn from this experience and the next time, some fry will be able to survive.


Be careful what you wish for... It could be a blessing in disguise for a couple of reasons;

1). If TFG is right and jags breed like cons and are hard to off-load having a bunch of fry could create a whole new set of problems for you.

2). You seem to have a balanced tank at the moment - for fry to survive it may mean the parents have to be more _assertive_ in their duties, which could disrupt the balance.

As an aside I would also like to mention that in a lot of cases when catfich or plecos are robbing eggs or fry people suggest leaving a 'night-light' on so the parents can protect their brood... In your case it could just infuriate Teeny and or Shorty - which could be a bad thing... If the robber is making off undetected in the night I would tend to think of it as 'No harm, No foul'.

I'd love to see some pics of the Mota as well.

Cheers,

D


----------



## south coast nelly

I would think its ever the parents eating the fry by mistake or could it poss be the filter??
Iam glad everythings working with the mix of cichlids,,,,iam rehoming my jag brutis to my local aqaurium next week<they>phoned me 5times now :lol: 
my tanks 5ft/2ft/2ft and brutis wanted to own the whole tank


----------



## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> *terd ferguson wrote:*
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the parents will learn from this experience and the next time, some fry will be able to survive.
> 
> 
> 
> Be careful what you wish for... It could be a blessing in disguise for a couple of reasons;
> 
> 1). If TFG is right and jags breed like cons and are hard to off-load having a bunch of fry could create a whole new set of problems for you.
> 
> 2). You seem to have a balanced tank at the moment - for fry to survive it may mean the parents have to be more _assertive_ in their duties, which could disrupt the balance.
> 
> As an aside I would also like to mention that in a lot of cases when catfich or plecos are robbing eggs or fry people suggest leaving a 'night-light' on so the parents can protect their brood... In your case it could just infuriate Teeny and or Shorty - which could be a bad thing... If the robber is making off undetected in the night I would tend to think of it as 'No harm, No foul'.
> 
> I'd love to see some pics of the Mota as well.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> D
Click to expand...

 You make excellent points and it's hard to disagree with any of them. The only real reason I'd like to see some fry survive is to find out if the parents are in fact eating them to protect them or if it is indeed someone else who is responsible. If it's not the parents, which I believe it's not but can't prove, that may finally put to rest any theories that the tank is too stressful of an enviornment for the fishes to successfully breed and raise fry until they're old enough to be on their own. I took a baby step with the loisellis laying eggs, but they ate them. Then another step with the jags' laying eggs and them hatching, but the fry disappeared. I just need that final confirmation with fry surviving on their own.

If the jags do start breeding regularly and a lot of fry are surviving, well that'll be great for me. My Convict breeding program is going nowhere. It takes much too long to get fry large enough to feed to the big fishes and a lot of fry are being lost due to getting stuck in the crevices in the gravel in their own breeding tank. Also, the convict numbers aren't what I'd hoped they'd be, even with at least 5 pairs spawning. 500 to 1,000 jag fry every couple of months is miles better than what I'm having to go through with the Convicts.

I'll try and get some pics of the motaguense for you. She's really surprised me with the rate of growth I've seen. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

south coast nelly said:


> I would think its ever the parents eating the fry by mistake or could it poss be the filter??
> Iam glad everythings working with the mix of cichlids,,,,iam rehoming my jag brutis to my local aqaurium next week<they>phoned me 5times now :lol:
> my tanks 5ft/2ft/2ft and brutis wanted to own the whole tank


Well, I'm positive it's not the filter. The overflow box is much to high to be the culprit. The powerheads have sponge filters on them, so they can't be the cause either. The Magnum H.O.T. that runs the UV is too far away to have sucked in fry. Also, the mom did a very good job of keeping the ball of fry contained and not letting them wander off. None of this excludes the parents being the reason for the missing fry (or their tankmates), however.

Good luck with your jag. How big is he?


----------



## terd ferguson

Here you go D, although it's not the best photo. You can click on it for a larger version. The bubbles and daylight hurt the quality a little. I'll get some better shots tonight.


----------



## illy-d

she's a nice looking fish :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> she's a nice looking fish :thumb:


Thanks, here's a couple more. Click on them to make them larger...


----------



## AU Chief

That is an amazing looking fish. I hope I can have one some day.


----------



## terd ferguson

AU Convicts said:


> That is an amazing looking fish. I hope I can have one some day.


Thanks for the compliment and thanks for reading. :thumb:


----------



## illy-d

Any info or updates? This thread got bumped off the first page so I'm just trying to bring it back...


----------



## terd ferguson

Nothing really new to add. All is still well. The jags are starting to act like there will be more eggs soon. Thanks for staying interested.


----------



## lestatak

Just curious as to the growth rate for a Jag? I just bought one that is about 1 1/2-2". He's too small to put in with the big boys so I have him in my ram tank. I think I may have to isolate him as he definitely has a eye for my cardinal tetras.


----------



## lestatak

Anybody?


----------



## terd ferguson

lestatak said:


> Anybody?


Jags will grow slowly when small. It took my female almost six months to go from one inch to four inches. Once she hit four inches, her growth rate seems to have increased.


----------



## terd ferguson

I have another batch of jag eggs on my hands, only this time there appears to be more.


----------



## terd ferguson

I did a waterchange today. It was interesting to say the least.  Momma jag doesn't like syphon tubes near her eggs.


----------



## terd ferguson

The eggs have hatched. This time, there were more eggs but less wrigglers. All is still well otherwise.

The mota is still doing fine with the Africans. The mangroves are still getting new leaves so I guess they're doing fine too.

Thanks again for reading. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

The wigglers are in fine shape. She has put them in the corner again. But this time, she hasn't moved them and has surrounded them with rocks. It would seem as if she has learned from the last time and is trying to better protect them. What do you guys think?


----------



## Blu-ray

Congrats on the fry terd!

can I ask why you don't move the fry ( at least some of them ) to another tank? lack of time to take care of them? or not having empty tank at the moment? or something else!


----------



## TheFishGuy

terd ferguson said:


> What do you guys think?


I think they mast a few days longer, but not too many.... No matter how good the parent the fry will eventually want to go on walk about. That's when they'll get picked off...

I love jags, monsterous versions of convicts! They'll never stop! :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

Blu-ray said:


> Congrats on the fry terd!
> 
> can I ask why you don't move the fry ( at least some of them ) to another tank? lack of time to take care of them? or not having empty tank at the moment? or something else!


Thanks.

I have three tanks going and they all have predators in them. I have an empty 55g, but I don't really want to set it up for these fry. Also, I've got a big tank coming any day now and I've got a lot to get ready to get it going when it arrives. And, honestly, I wanted to see what would happen. Now, I'm curious to see if the fry will last longer. I think my ultimate goal is to see if any of the fry from this spawn or subsequent spawns will make it. It happened to a Convict fry out of a hundred or so I fed to the big tank. So, why not a jag? And, since there is still no negative consequences from allowing nature to take it's course, I figured I'd let the fry have another shot at survival.

Thanks for reading. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

TheFishGuy said:


> terd ferguson said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you guys think?
> 
> 
> 
> I think they mast a few days longer, but not too many.... No matter how good the parent the fry will eventually want to go on walk about. That's when they'll get picked off...
> 
> I love jags, monsterous versions of convicts! They'll never stop! :thumb:
Click to expand...

I don't know about that. I've got a four inch Convict in there that survived from being fed as a fry.

And if I had to pick a favorite in my tank, it would be the jags. Especially Tiny, he's so big now and thick and 'majestic' (if a fish can be majestic).

Thanks for following along. :thumb:


----------



## TheFishGuy

Small newly swimming fry less than 1/4" will not survive... Too easy of a target


----------



## haibane

That red is one sexy girl...


----------



## terd ferguson

TheFishGuy said:


> Small newly swimming fry less than 1/4" will not survive... Too easy of a target


You're more than likely right. 



haibane said:


> That red is one sexy girl...


Thanks. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

I've got a couple of other updates to offer. I got an email notification today that my new tank will ship on June 19th. Shipping is supposed to take four to five days. I'm pretty excited about that.

Also, some of you who caught the "other" thread may recall I also wanted to add a salvini to this tank. Well, after looking around town for a few months, I gave up. I found some tonight (of all places) at Wal Mart. I got two pretty good looking ones for $4 each. They were labled as "misc. s. american cichlids" and in with some Convicts. They are between 1 1/2" and 2" and already displaying great coloration. I've put them in with the motaguense and the Africans for now. I'll ty to get some photos later tonight.

When the new tank gets here, the mota has gained enough size to go right in. I'll probably keep the two salvinis in with the Africans until they get some decent size to them and keep the best looking one in the new tank (or maybe both).

Thanks again for following. :thumb:


----------



## Blu-ray

terd ferguson said:


> And, honestly, I wanted to see what would happen. Now, I'm curious to see if the fry will last longer. I think my ultimate goal is to see if any of the fry from this spawn or subsequent spawns will make it.


I understand you, my oscars have spawned, I separated most of the fry but let some of the be with parents to see what would happen finally. wanna find out how long they will keep them. its 11 days and parents are still guarding them.

good luck.


----------



## TheFishGuy

That's impressive Blu-ray. Have you noticed that the fry with the parents are growing faster than the fry you're raising?

Mr. F, You're going to want a male sal in with that group, he should do fine. To sex them look for a dark splotch on the dorsal fin.... if there's one it's a female... Should go well with your mix seeing as their nick name is "the mini guapote" :thumb:


----------



## Blu-ray

TheFishGuy said:


> That's impressive Blu-ray. Have you noticed that the fry with the parents are growing faster than the fry you're raising?


they are still pretty small and hard to compare but I feel those with parents are getting larger! they always swim around the parents in a group and I have seen that they even feed from the mucus of the parents' bodies. thats really nice to watch. some times the parents get angry of those little bites and shake themselves to disperse the fry :lol: 
I should wait some more days to make a better comparison.
in first days it seemed they are smaller than separated fry because I couldn't feed them well ( parents don't allow me to do anything, I get my hand over the tank to feed the fry and they jump up to kill my hand! ) but then i found another way, fry like to play in the current of sump outlet falling to the tank, because theres more current and oxygen, so I inject the newly hatched brine shrimps to the last compartment of the sump and it goes straight to the fry :lol: so they get enough food now.

terd, I'm sorry for talking about my fish in your thread.


----------



## terd ferguson

Blu-ray said:


> terd ferguson said:
> 
> 
> 
> And, honestly, I wanted to see what would happen. Now, I'm curious to see if the fry will last longer. I think my ultimate goal is to see if any of the fry from this spawn or subsequent spawns will make it.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand you, my oscars have spawned, I separated most of the fry but let some of the be with parents to see what would happen finally. wanna find out how long they will keep them. its 11 days and parents are still guarding them.
> 
> good luck.
Click to expand...

Thanks and I'm glad your fry are doing well too. It wouldn't surprise me that the fry raised with the parents would do better and grow faster than the fry seperated from the parents. Good luck to you as well. :thumb:



Blu-Ray said:


> terd, I'm sorry for talking about my fish in your thread.


No worries friend. This thread's purpose is to pass along experience and information. I appreciate you sharing yours. Thanks. :thumb:



TheFishGuy said:


> Mr. F, You're going to want a male sal in with that group, he should do fine. To sex them look for a dark splotch on the dorsal fin.... if there's one it's a female... Should go well with your mix seeing as their nick name is "the mini guapote" :thumb:


I'm not sure of their sex yet. At Wal Mart, I got the two that looked healthiest and had the brightest colors (I still can't believe that Wal Mart had salvinis). They've been hiding from the mota since I put them in. The motaguense is turning into quite the boss, in every sense of the word, in the african tank. I plan on moving the mota when the new tank comes around the end of this month. Putting her in at a little over 4" with a bunch of 12" to 15" fishes ought to fix her attitude, mini guapote or no. 

I'd also like to add a male grammodes, but the only ones in town are $80. I don't want to pay that much for one fish, especially one that's not especially rare. Maybe Wal Mart will get some of those? 

And, TFG, thanks for the tips on sexing the sals. :thumb: I still owe you guys some pictures, I'll see if I can't scare them out of their hiding spot.


----------



## terd ferguson

I forgot to add that the fry are still doing well. Shorty (momma jag) still has them corralled in the corner. She hasn't moved them this time at all. She has also barricaded the corner with rocks she has moved to make like a fence, to better protect them I assume. That behavior has kind of surprised me. The rocks she had to move to make the barricade are pretty big in comparison to her size. The fry still aren't free swimming though. Once that happens, as you all know, they'll be much harder for momma jag to protect.


----------



## terd ferguson

The fry are free swimming as of late last night and it appears that none are missing as of yet. Shorty didn't move them at all this time. They stayed in one spot, corralled so to speak, with rocks she moved to make like a fence.


----------



## terd ferguson

The fry went missing again, a little each night like last time until there were none left. I figured out what happened though. As the lights go out, the fry start to wander away from the safety of their parents before the mom can round them all up. The next time they spawn, I'll suck some fry out to raise up.

Thanks again for following. :thumb:


----------



## TheFishGuy

My midas are on their third spawn, actually they're spawning as I type, it's neat to watch but dad gets all pissy when you watch :lol: They ate their first batch, then their second batch, well half of them, I saved the other half... So this is their third... We'll see what they do this time...


----------



## terd ferguson

TheFishGuy said:


> My midas are on their third spawn, actually they're spawning as I type, it's neat to watch but dad gets all pissy when you watch :lol: They ate their first batch, then their second batch, well half of them, I saved the other half... So this is their third... We'll see what they do this time...


Good luck. :thumb:


----------



## cage623

Hey TFG,

Did you video those Midas? That would have made a great youtube video (hint hint :wink: ). Good luck.


----------



## TheFishGuy

No.... :?


----------



## cage623

Oh well, you are better off. Then instead of "TheFishGuy" you would have to change your name to "TheGuyWhoVideoTapesHisFishGettingBusy" and that is just way too long of a name.


----------



## TheFishGuy

True... but kinky...


----------



## DISCIPLE

terd i wanna say i have thouroughly enjoyed your posts here as well as our beloved mfk home board. that is really impressive. i am doing the same on a smaller scale. also the jag advice you gave me was right on point. thanks again. sadly my 5.5" jag was killed due to me forgetting to replace my intake cover after cleaning and wc. i got another in february at 1.5" and im expecting a growth spurt here now that the 4" mark has been reached. :dancing: 
back to your tank.......I LOVE IT! can you tell me what you secure your wood at the top?


----------



## Blu-ray

terd, its a long time that I'm planning on sand substrate for my next tank, bright sand like yours. but theres one thing annoying me, you know large fish like yours and mines produce large feces and I think its not interesting to see them on a bright substrate. do you have any solution for this problem? ( except daily gravel vac. :lol: )


----------



## Toby_H

Blu-ray said:


> terd, its a long time that I'm planning on sand substrate for my next tank, bright sand like yours. but theres one thing annoying me, you know large fish like yours and mines produce large feces and I think its not interesting to see them on a bright substrate. do you have any solution for this problem? ( except daily gravel vac. :lol: )


Strong enough filtration to not allow waste to settle on the bottom...


----------



## terd ferguson

DISCIPLE said:


> terd i wanna say i have thouroughly enjoyed your posts here as well as our beloved mfk home board. that is really impressive. i am doing the same on a smaller scale. also the jag advice you gave me was right on point. thanks again. sadly my 5.5" jag was killed due to me forgetting to replace my intake cover after cleaning and wc. i got another in february at 1.5" and im expecting a growth spurt here now that the 4" mark has been reached. :dancing:
> back to your tank.......I LOVE IT! can you tell me what you secure your wood at the top?


Thanks for following along with my saga. I'm sorry about your jag. It sucks when you lose a fish because of something dumb. I lost a great Oscar for not getting a lid on my tank in a timely fashion. Good luck with the new jag. :thumb:



Blu-ray said:


> terd, its a long time that I'm planning on sand substrate for my next tank, bright sand like yours. but theres one thing annoying me, you know large fish like yours and mines produce large feces and I think its not interesting to see them on a bright substrate. do you have any solution for this problem? ( except daily gravel vac. :lol: )


You can try to get a powerhead to push water around to get the poop circulating into your filtration or you can vacuum a lot. But, Toby is correct. If your filtration is strong enough, the poop will not settle on the bottom.


----------



## terd ferguson

Stay tuned for a quick picture update very soon... :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

Parachromis motaguense, still doing great. The Africans she's in with, not so hot. They're being picked on. She'll have to be moved soon to avoid a death. The WalMart salvinis are impossible to photograph, but I'll keep trying...










Big tank full shot from just now...










Oh yeah, Christmas came early...  :lol: :drooling: :dancing:  8) :wink: :thumb:










Now who's coming over to help me get this monster in the house? opcorn:


----------



## ArcticCatRider

Well, gotdernit... aren't you justa lucky 1. Man, that gonna fit in the house, or you takin out the sawzall? :lol: 
It's gonna look good once that baby's setup! :wink: :thumb: opcorn:


----------



## Toby_H

I hope it doesn't fit in his house... because I'm 30 minutes down the road and I know it'll fit in my garage 

Congratts Kevin...


----------



## terd ferguson

ArcticCatRider said:


> Well, gotdernit... aren't you justa lucky 1. Man, that gonna fit in the house, or you takin out the sawzall? :lol:
> It's gonna look good once that baby's setup! :wink: :thumb: opcorn:


Thanks. Stay tuned for a lot more pictures over the next couple of weeks.



Toby_H said:


> I hope it doesn't fit in his house... because I'm 30 minutes down the road and I know it'll fit in my garage
> 
> Congratts Kevin...


Don't worry, it'll fit. Measure once, cut three times I always say. 

The 190g, on the other hand, would fit great in your garage. Bring some cash and four or five big guys and you can get it.


----------



## DISCIPLE

way to go TERD! im sooooo jealous :drooling: :dancing: :thumb: 
one question for you.
how did you secure the driftwood @ top of the tank. i cant see it whatever it is and thats a major plus!


----------



## terd ferguson

DISCIPLE said:


> way to go TERD! im sooooo jealous :drooling: :dancing: :thumb:
> one question for you.
> how did you secure the driftwood @ top of the tank. i cant see it whatever it is and thats a major plus!


I bought that driftwood attached to slate. I removed the slate to arrange it in a different way on the bottom. It wouldn't sink though. So, the flat edge of the driftwood (that used to be against the slate) is floating against the glass braces at the top of the tank. So, it's not "attached", just floating.


----------



## BlackShark11k

Nice! Can't wait to see that monster going!


----------



## Beals

those fish are awesome looking very nice


----------



## terd ferguson

artemis1 said:


> Nice! Can't wait to see that monster going!


Thanks. I can't wait either. :thumb:



Beals said:


> those fish are awesome looking very nice


Thanks, there's some better detail pics earlier in this thread. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

It's in the house.


----------



## Toby_H

That rocks... now all you have to do is lower the house 3' so you can slide the stand under it  That might be easier than lifting the tank... 

PS - I have an insanely busy weekend including the fish club meeting here Sunday. But I do have a good bit of free (flexible) time early this week (work is ugly slow). If you need a hand muscling it one day this week let me know... (but you can't have your girl back yet... I have one more male that wants to have his way with her... assuming that's still cool with you...)


----------



## terd ferguson

Toby_H said:


> That rocks... now all you have to do is lower the house 3' so you can slide the stand under it  That might be easier than lifting the tank...
> 
> PS - I have an insanely busy weekend including the fish club meeting here Sunday. But I do have a good bit of free (flexible) time early this week (work is ugly slow). If you need a hand muscling it one day this week let me know... (but you can't have your girl back yet... I have one more male that wants to have his way with her... assuming that's still cool with you...)


I appreciate the offer to help. It's not as heavy as you'd think. Me and another guy got it in the house. That's the beauty of acrylic. No worries about the JD. As you can see, I've got my hands plenty full. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

I've got all the wood I need for the stand. Construction for that will begin tomorrow. I also got about $100 worth of PVC and fittings for the plumbing today. I had to wait till I actually had the bulkheads in hand to get everything right. I also picked up some Krylon Fusion spray paint to paint the PVC drains and returns black to help disguise them. I've used this in the past with good results and it's fish safe.

I'll post some pics tomorrow to show progress of the stand. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## bl00dr0ck

What an awesome tank!!! I've always been a Rift Lake guy, but after looking in on this forum I've been stung by the urge to extend my collection to this side of the Atlantic. I can't believe that Salvini is from Walmart!!!
Great stuff!
Scott


----------



## terd ferguson

bl00dr0ck said:


> What an awesome tank!!! I've always been a Rift Lake guy, but after looking in on this forum I've been stung by the urge to extend my collection to this side of the Atlantic. I can't believe that Salvini is from Walmart!!!
> Great stuff!
> Scott


Thanks. The size and personalities of the big CA/SA's won me over.

Wood has been cut and construction of the stand has begun. Stay tuned for pics.


----------



## terd ferguson

This is most of what will be holding up almost 4,000 pounds of water, acrylic, sand, rocks and fishes.










And allow me to introduce Beffy McShovelton and Angus Stabbington III. I got these two for next to nothing yesterday. I've always wanted one and with the bigger tank they'll have a nice home for a while. An even bigger tank may be in the distant future now. 










And just a quick tank shot from today.










I'm making progress on the stand and will get some more pics up soon. I also rescued a smaller female Red Terror a week or so ago who was very beat up. She's now healing up and out of quarantine and eating like an Oscar. I haven't gotten any decent pics of her yet (or the Salvinis) but I'll keep trying. You can see her in the full tankshot just under the piece of wood on the right top. Click on the pics for larger versions. 

Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## BlackShark11k

Nice TSN


----------



## terd ferguson

artemis1 said:


> Nice TSN


Thanks. I love the way they cruise around.


----------



## trimac

Oh no-you got a TSN! When it gets big it will eat a lot of your fish even your larger cichlids-you do know that they hunt at night and will eat anything that fits in their mouths and they get to atleast 3 feet!


----------



## terd ferguson

trimac said:


> Oh no-you got a TSN! When it gets big it will eat a lot of your fish even your larger cichlids-you do know that they hunt at night and will eat anything that fits in their mouths and they get to atleast 3 feet!


Same old, same old, doomsday, end of the world, all my fishes are going to start a prison yard race riot and murder me in my sleep, etc..

trimac, you should know me well enough by now to know that I do proper research. What makes you think that you're so smart and I'm so dumb as to not know what kind of fishes I've bought? How do you know I don't have special plans for these TSN's? How many forums are you going to post this same question on to try and make me look stupid again? Give it a rest. Why are you still trying to bother me? There's plenty of other threads for you to post your jibber jabber in.

And don't come back in here and say you were only trying to help. You know I don't need or want your help. I've told you so many, many times. I'm doing just fine without you. This thread documenting my work speaks for itself.

To everyone else, sorry for the slight rant. I've had problems with this one before. But, thanks again for looking. Stay tuned for some updated pics of the new stand construction later tonight. :thumb:


----------



## remarkosmoc

those are awesome I gotta say im a little jealous :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

tannable75 said:


> those are awesome I gotta say im a little jealous :thumb:


Thanks. 8)


----------



## terd ferguson

As promised, here's an updated shot of the stand. It's still unfinished but getting there. This is the top and the base. I've got all the legs cut and they will be in place tomorrow. I'll post more pics then. The new tank is going where the entertainment center/TV/chair/ottoman is now (top of the pic).










Besides this new tank and stand along with maintaining all my other tanks, I've seriously got a lot of projects going on at once. This is why I've been a little slow in updating lately. To give you an idea, I've got the Chevy pickup I'm doing bodywork on and painting flat black (the one in the pic of my new tank just delivered in the front yard). I've also got to get new flooring down in place of the carpet in the room the tank is going in before the tank goes in (that'll be the next few days).

And if that weren't enough, here's a little something I threw together in my spare time. 1969 Triumph hardtail with jockey shift, kick start only, no front brake, springer front end, etc.. I dub thee "Momma Tried" (who likes Merle Haggard? :dancing: ). I'm a DIY type of guy. 8)



















And here's a shot of Albie I took tonight as he was begging for some attention. He never gets enough. 










You can click on all the pics for a larger version. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

If anyone else is interested in more info about the TSN's, there are now 8 species recognized. Here's an interesting paper...

http://www.mapress.com/zootaxa/2007f/zt01512p038.pdf

But, my keeping them is merely clever subterfuge. They are being trained as ruthless assassins for a secret mission on the Texas/Mexico border to infiltrate a rival's tank and eat all his fishes at night (when they like to hunt). The training is going well. They are now being instructed in clever disguises (false mustaches and beards mostly). Oops, I've already said too much, lol. :lol:


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## stuckinthemiddle

Dude, thats an awesome bike! I don't know which I like better, the bike or the fish! How many CC is that? (dont mean to wander from the fish subject)


----------



## remarkosmoc

turd ferguson said:


> But, my keeping them is merely clever subterfuge. They are being trained as ruthless assassins for a secret mission on the Texas/Mexico border to infiltrate a rival's tank and eat all his fishes at night (when they like to hunt). The training is going well. They are now being instructed in clever disguises (false mustaches and beards mostly). Oops, I've already said too much, lol. Laugh Out Loud


I had to read up a little bit but when I caught on that's halirous! :lol: :lol:


----------



## TheFishGuy

What are your plans with the TSN?


----------



## terd ferguson

TheFishGuy said:


> What are your plans with the TSN?





terd ferguson said:


> But, my keeping them is merely clever subterfuge. They are being trained as ruthless assassins for a secret mission on the Texas/Mexico border to infiltrate a rival's tank and eat all his fishes at night (when they like to hunt). The training is going well. They are now being instructed in clever disguises (false mustaches and beards mostly). Oops, I've already said too much, lol.


Or, if they're ordered to stand down, they'll go in a really large pond awaiting their next super secret mission.

Seriously though TFG, in your work with monsterfishrescue, what's the biggest non-wild TSN you've come accross? The biggest I've seen kept in captivity was four feet in a video. All the other really big ones (again, non-wild) I've seen were around three feet. Have you ever rescued a really big one (or kept a rescue til they got really big)?

***Edited To Add***
The IGFA world record for a TSN caught with rod and reel is 51" and 43 1/2 lbs.. But, again, I've only seen one close to that size in captivity. I know it's in their genetics to get larger than that. I'm just wondering what their ultra maximum, rogue fish status, potential could be.


----------



## terd ferguson

stuckinthemiddle said:


> Dude, thats an awesome bike! I don't know which I like better, the bike or the fish! How many CC is that? (dont mean to wander from the fish subject)


It's a 650cc from a '72 Triumph Tiger. The frame is a 1969 Triumph hardtail. And thanks for the kind words. :thumb:



tannable75 said:


> I had to read up a little bit but when I caught on that's halirous! :lol: :lol:


----------



## DirtyBlackSocks

Good looking tank!

We've got a guy out here with a 10,000 gallon tank chock full of cichlids that should be ripping eachother apart but choose to co-exist by what would be considered tight quarters due to the space in the tank I suppose.

FYI the only fish he's ever had to remove due to aggression issue's are TSN, and he's got A LOT of big mean fish in there - so you're going to want to keep an eye on them!


----------



## terd ferguson

DirtyBlackSocks said:


> Good looking tank!
> 
> We've got a guy out here with a 10,000 gallon tank chock full of cichlids that should be ripping eachother apart but choose to co-exist by what would be considered tight quarters due to the space in the tank I suppose.
> 
> FYI the only fish he's ever had to remove due to aggression issue's are TSN, and he's got A LOT of big mean fish in there - so you're going to want to keep an eye on them!


Was the TSN's problem aggression or hunger? Did he murder just to kill or for food? Just curious.


----------



## DirtyBlackSocks

The guy feeds the tank 200 lbs. of hikari sinking gold a month so I don't think it was hunger, he just liked to chase and bully things around.

You can view the tank at:

http://www.fishtankwebcam.com

Login: ilovefish
Password: ptcptc

He's had a lot more luck with niger and red tails, I think. Tiger's just seem to be overly aggressive in general when they get to a good size.


----------



## DirtyBlackSocks

Side note, and sorry if this is derailing a bit:

The camera pans from side to side every 5 minutes or so, so you're never seeing the entire tank - and it's about 13 feet deep, so you really only see about 1/4 of the fish that are in there.


----------



## terd ferguson

DirtyBlackSocks said:


> Side note, and sorry if this is derailing a bit:
> 
> The camera pans from side to side every 5 minutes or so, so you're never seeing the entire tank - and it's about 13 feet deep, so you really only see about 1/4 of the fish that are in there.


No worries. Thanks for the link. That is a cool tank and I love the webcam. Thanks again. :thumb:


----------



## TheFishGuy

The largest that's been here was 37". The largest I've been able to keep is 34" and two years old. It seems as if a 14' tank wasn't big enough for him. He jumped around this past Christmas while I was working in the tank. Took off like a rocket and hit the block wall outside of the tank, fell back in and I had to put him down he was in such bad shape. Ponds are great, but need to be covered and filtered well with large water changes. Their water needs to be pristeen in order for them to thrive. Incidently, they will fit fish in the mouths much larger than you thought possible. The 37" TSN ate an 11" oscar.


----------



## terd ferguson

TheFishGuy said:


> The largest that's been here was 37". The largest I've been able to keep is 34" and two years old. It seems as if a 14' tank wasn't big enough for him. He jumped around this past Christmas while I was working in the tank. Took off like a rocket and hit the block wall outside of the tank, fell back in and I had to put him down he was in such bad shape. Ponds are great, but need to be covered and filtered well with large water changes. Their water needs to be pristeen in order for them to thrive. Incidently, they will fit fish in the mouths much larger than you thought possible. The 37" TSN ate an 11" oscar.


Thanks for the info. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

Here's some shots I took tonight that came out ok. Click on the photo for larger versions, sorry for all the bubbles. As always, thanks for looking. :thumb:

Jags and GT's...

Aequidens rivulatus, "False Green Terror" so called "Red Saum". Check out the long finnage.



















Parachromis managuense, "Jaguar". The beast that is 'Tiny'.




























Parachromis managuense, "Jaguar". Almost as beastly, catching up fast, 'Teeny'.


----------



## Big Vine

Nice pics...I especially like that first shot of your jag, 'Tiny.' 8) 
BV


----------



## terd ferguson

Big Vine said:


> Nice pics...I especially like that first shot of your jag, 'Tiny.' 8)
> BV


Thanks. :thumb:


----------



## BlackShark11k

Nice find with the red saum.


----------



## terd ferguson

artemis1 said:


> Nice find with the red saum.


Thanks. Some classify them as a seperate species. I don't know if they are in fact a different species or are just a geographical color variation. But they are definately different than all the Gold Saums I've seen. The dorsal fins on the 'Red Saum' are way longer than that of the Gold Saums I've had and seen at the same body size. This particular fish has a dorsal fin that extends well past his tail fin. The 'red' on the fins is still orange, but it's a lot more red than yellow/gold like the Gold Saums. It has a lot more blue on it's sides as well. It's a cool fish for sure. Thanks for the kind words. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

While we're discussing geographical variations, check out these pics of the Parachromis loiselli and the Parachromis friedrichsthalii. Could these be the same? The same as in both loisellis? Their head and body are shaped differently even though both are males. What I call the loiselli (or "Captain Awesome" if you will) is more football shaped. What I call the friedrichsthalii is shaped much more like a jag, especially the head.

The coloration, although similar is the main difference between the two. The loiselli is very yellow with blue/green highlights. The freddy is a paler yellow with more whiteish highlights. It's almost confusing, lol. Check out these pics I shot tonight and tell me what you guys think.

Parachromis loiselli male, "Captain Awesome"










Parachromis friedrichsthalii male, "Joe Kicka**"










The loiselli again



















And the freddy again



















The light can be deceiving at times when viewing pics making the two fishes look more different and/or more similar than they are in real life. In real life, the color difference between the two is drastically different as is the worm like patterns on their faces.

Also, the framework of the stand is together. I'll get some pics of it up tomorrow. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

As promised, here's a shot of the stand's skeleton completed and together.










Next will be the plywood for the top and bottom. More pics will follow for that. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## WakinAZ

Nice and sturdy looking. Looks like it will have no problem supporting a ton and a half of aquarium.

Eric


----------



## terd ferguson

WakinAZ said:


> Nice and sturdy looking. Looks like it will have no problem supporting a ton and a half of aquarium.
> 
> Eric


I sure hope so. :lol:


----------



## WakinAZ

So is that your own design or is it a design from the internet or... Also, just curious, why no lag bolts, etc. vs. the wood screws?

Looking good, if I ever go bigger than 125 I will seriously look into acrylic for the lighter weight and strength.


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## terd ferguson

WakinAZ said:


> So is that your own design or is it a design from the internet or... Also, just curious, why no lag bolts, etc. vs. the wood screws?
> 
> Looking good, if I ever go bigger than 125 I will seriously look into acrylic for the lighter weight and strength.


Thanks. The design for the stand is partly lifted from several DIY links on the interwebz with my improvements. There are 16 legs in total around the 24 foot perimeter of the stand, all sandwiched between the top and bottom frames. The weight is transferred from the top frame to the sandwiched legs to the bottom frame. No weight is resting on the screws. This eliminates the need for, extra time in construction by drilling holes for, and extra cost of lag screws. It's the same design as the 190g stand, only larger.

You can think about it like this, the second story of my house weighs a lot more than this fish tank. It (along with the first story) is constructed in the same way as this stand with nails. There are no lag bolts. It's all about weight transfer. Another way to look at it is this- the tank is supported by the stand's top frame which is supported by the legs, which are supported by the bottom stand frame, which is supported by the concrete slab. The screws aren't holding any vertical weight.

For weight reference, my 190g with 1/2" thick glass weighs at least 350 pounds with it's euro bracing up top and extra bracing underneath. The same size tank made of acrylic would weigh 170 pounds. The new 350g in comparison weighs 250 pounds. If the 350g were made of glass, it would weigh well over 500 pounds. And keep in mind, the acrylic has a solid top while the glass tanks have euro bracing not covering the entire top, making the weight difference even more dramatic.

So, acrylic is less than half the weight of glass. This was a huge factor for me when selecting the material for this new tank. Trying to move 500 pounds+ through narrow doorways and lifting it on a stand is harder than you think. Even with 4 or more people. Try and fit two guys (one on each corner of the tank) plus a 500+ pound tank through a doorway at the same time. This is not taking into account the other advantages acrylic offers such as better clarity, stronger seams, lifetime warranty (with Tenecor), etc.. The only real disadvantage is the higher relative cost of acrylic for smaller tanks and the fact that acrylic is more easily scratched than glass.

Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

Here's a close up of the sandwiched legs...










And here's a shot of the stand with the plywood top on. I'm cutting out the plywood for the bottom now.










There will be more pics soon. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## remarkosmoc

As I look at that pic, I'm wondering if the tank is going to go in the room the stand is in, and if not, can you get that stand into the room its headed to?


----------



## terd ferguson

tannable75 said:


> As I look at that pic, I'm wondering if the tank is going to go in the room the stand is in, and if not, can you get that stand into the room its headed to?


No worries, it's going in that room. I've got a really good wife to let me carry on with major construction in the house. :lol:


----------



## illy-d

By the time it's complete the stand will probably weigh more than the tank (empty of course) :lol:

Looks good - I follow the same principle on my DIY stands with the weight always being supported by vertical members, never hardware... It translates into a seriously overbuilt stand, but compared to what you would spend on a commercially bought stand you save money and get extra piece of mind!

I'm sure you've already thought of it, but if you're using a sump that won't fit under the tank through the openings on the front of the stand you could make a door at one of the ends and slide the sump in that way...

I'd like to see a shot of the tank on the stand with something for perspective (be it a beer bottle or a 10g tank like TFG used during his monster tank build - something that's pretty much universal in size).


----------



## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> By the time it's complete the stand will probably weigh more than the tank (empty of course) :lol:


It probably will once it's all said and done with.



illy-d said:


> Looks good - I follow the same principle on my DIY stands with the weight always being supported by vertical members, never hardware... It translates into a seriously overbuilt stand, but compared to what you would spend on a commercially bought stand you save money and get extra piece of mind!
> 
> I'm sure you've already thought of it, but if you're using a sump that won't fit under the tank through the openings on the front of the stand you could make a door at one of the ends and slide the sump in that way...


It's like you read my mind. 



illy-d said:


> I'd like to see a shot of the tank on the stand with something for perspective (be it a beer bottle or a 10g tank like TFG used during his monster tank build - something that's pretty much universal in size).


It may be a week or so before the tank goes on the stand. I don't want to have to move it twice. The stand as it sits in the photos is 98" long x 38" wide x 34" tall. The tank is 24" tall. So, the top of the tank will be about 5' high.

I'll get some shots up of my progress soon. I've got the plywood for the bottom cut out and am about to attach it. After that, I've got to cut a couple of holes for the drain and return lines in the top of the stand. Then comes the decorative skin, moulding, and doors. Then, stain and clear. While all this is going on, the carpet in that room will be coming up and replaced with wood flooring. As you can see, I've still got a lot to do, but it won't tanke too much longer. 8)

Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

*EXCITING UPDATE!!!*

Over the last week or so, there' have been some goings on in my tank. I wasn't sure what to make of them until today. It seems as if the two females who have spawned previously have been acting strange. The loiselli female, who hasn't laid eggs in a couple of months, seems to be fat with eggs again. Now, that's not strange. What is strange is that she has switched mates. She has abandoned Captain Awesome and has joined up with Joe Kicka$$, the male freddy. They are at each others' sides and swimming together. I expect a spawning soon from these two.

Even stranger is Shorty's behavior, the female jag who has had free swimming fry twice now. She too, perhaps inspired by the loiselli, has also switched mates. Her choice is none other than Tiny. She has even moved into his house on the opposite side of the tank from where her house with Teeny was.

Let me rewind a little. Over the last week, Shorty has been hanging around Tiny's side of the tank. During this time, Tiny and Teeny (Shorty's former partner and other male jag) have been swimming back and forth side by side. During this behavior, they would both flare out their fins and mouths as if to say "look at me, I'm more handsome than him". I think they were displaying for the female (Shorty) to try and win her favor. The two big males, while seemingly in competition with each other, didn't make any aggressive moves towards each other. They only displayed what I call "strutting behavior". There was no fighting or lip locking between them, only the "strutting".

I know, I know, big deal right? Well, today, Shorty has laid more eggs than ever. And they are in Tiny's house. And Tiny has fertilized them. Check it out...




























In short, I'm very surprised and amazed at this behavior with not one, but two pairs. I'm even more surprised it has resulted in a jaguar spawn. Being able to observe this kind of behavior without aggression/murder/fighting is what makes all the work that goes into this tank worthwhile. Comments and opinions on this are, of course, welcomed.

Thanks again for looking and stay tuned for some new pics of the new stand's progress. :thumb:


----------



## illy-d

That's awesome - and unbelievable... You really must have magic water :wink:

That strutting as you describe it is a very common first step in aggressive behaviour - in the wild it is perhaps the most important stap as an intimidating display is the best offense and the best defense (with two formidable combatants they are both aware that a full on battle can result in injury & death two *both* fish, which obviously is not ideal for either).

Think of this as Alert Level 1 and just observe for now - but be ready with a divider (or isolation tank for the 3rd wheel fish) just in case!

Thank you for the update and pics!

-D


----------



## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> That's awesome - and unbelievable... You really must have magic water :wink:
> 
> That strutting as you describe it is a very common first step in aggressive behaviour - in the wild it is perhaps the most important stap as an intimidating display is the best offense and the best defense (with two formidable combatants they are both aware that a full on battle can result in injury & death two *both* fish, which obviously is not ideal for either).
> 
> Think of this as Alert Level 1 and just observe for now - but be ready with a divider (or isolation tank for the 3rd wheel fish) just in case!
> 
> Thank you for the update and pics!
> 
> -D


You may be correct, but it stopped as soon as Shorty chose her new mate a few days ago and hasn't begun again. And, it's hard to describe, but there is a clear difference between what the two males were doing and what I would characterize as "aggressive behavior". I would describe it like they were showing off _for her_ rather than against each other. A better way to describe the behavior is to liken it to a couple of male peacocks strutting for a female trying to display their tail feathers as large and as beautiful as possible to try and win her over. One will pass by the female and then the other will try to top that display with more majesty and beauty. I have seen male to male breeding aggression and general big fish tankmate aggression and this wasn't the same.

Whatever their motives, the tank requires much closer observation because of the breeding. Protection of the eggs and then the fry can be a critical time for aggressive behavior to rear it's head. And while it hasn't happened in the past, that doesn't mean it won't happen this time. Or next time. Or the time after that. Et cetera.

Thanks again for looking. :thumb:

So again, this is a new hurdle to overcome. And while I'm cautious, I'm also pretty confident that this will turn out just fine based on the fishes' behavior in the past and during this new episode.


----------



## terd ferguson

I guess I should add that I picked up 200 pounds of 3M's awesome ColorQuartz today. I tried to pick up some grammodes from a big time LFS I visit every two or three months way on the other side of town. But I couldn't force myself to pay $90 each for 2" to 3" ones. I tried to haggle but no one had the authority, lol. These fish have been on my wish list for a while now.

On the bright side, I met a local guy in my local aquarium club that has grammodes spawns from time to time. He's promised me some fry the next time they spawn. Gotta love local clubs. If you have one, you should join. If not, you should start one. :thumb:

Also, I'm ready to start on the new stand's outer decorative skin. I've got to decide exactly how it'll look (stained oak vs. stained b i r c h vs. painted black) and then pick up the materials. I still owe stand progress pics too. I'll get them up soon. Thanks again for looking. :wink:

***EDITED TO ADD***
I tried to type b i r c h without the spaces and the curse filter must have thought it was something else. Here's what it looks like when you type b i r c h without the spaces- birch. Crazy, huh?


----------



## illy-d

> Gotta love local clubs. If you have one, you should join. If not, you should start one.


Ain't that the truth - I'm a member of 2 (I recently moved) and the savings available to club members from retail outlets is awesome - but the deals to be had through trading with members is even better...


----------



## TheFishGuy

TheFishGuy said:


> What are your plans with the TSN?


----------



## terd ferguson

terd ferguson said:


> TheFishGuy said:
> 
> 
> 
> What are your plans with the TSN?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> terd ferguson said:
> 
> 
> 
> But, my keeping them is merely clever subterfuge. They are being trained as ruthless assassins for a secret mission on the Texas/Mexico border to infiltrate a rival's tank and eat all his fishes at night (when they like to hunt). The training is going well. They are now being instructed in clever disguises (false mustaches and beards mostly). Oops, I've already said too much, lol.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *Or, if they're ordered to stand down, they'll go in a really large pond awaiting their next super secret mission. *
> 
> Seriously though TFG, in your work with monsterfishrescue, what's the biggest non-wild TSN you've come accross? The biggest I've seen kept in captivity was four feet in a video. All the other really big ones (again, non-wild) I've seen were around three feet. Have you ever rescued a really big one (or kept a rescue til they got really big)?
> 
> ***Edited To Add***
> The IGFA world record for a TSN caught with rod and reel is 51" and 43 1/2 lbs.. But, again, I've only seen one close to that size in captivity. I know it's in their genetics to get larger than that. I'm just wondering what their ultra maximum, rogue fish status, potential could be.
Click to expand...

Like I said, when they get too big for the 350g, they'll go in my giant pond. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

I should add that everything's going swimmingly (lol :lol: ) with Tiny and Shorty's spawn. They both hover over the eggs protecting them. There haven't been any problems of any kind as of yet. I expect the eggs to start hatching tomorrow night or the next morning.

I thought the two Tiger Shovelnoses could be a problem as they've set up shop next to Tiny's house where the eggs are now. But, the two jag parents don't seem to be bothered by them and the two TSN's don't seem to be interested in the eggs. However, when the fry become free swimming may be a different matter.

The synodontis has been banished to the other side of the tank. His former home was in and around Tiny's house, eating the left overs from feeding (that's where they seem to settle). Momma jag kept pushing him out until he finally learned to move on.

At the end of the day, things are still going great. I plan on keeping some fry from this spawn. Now that Shorty has swapped mates, I regret not keeping any of the fry from her and Teeny's spawns. But, I had no idea the swapping would take place and figured I had plenty of spawns left to get some fry from them. This time, I'll syphon some out and raise them up in a spare 10g for a while. I may keep a couple of good ones and sell the rest. My local LFS's seem to never have more than one or sometimes two jags, if any at all.

Also, the female loiselli's belly looks fat and her tube is starting to extend. She has definately aligned herself with the male freddy, Joe Kicka$$. I would expect to see eggs from them soon.

The floor of the new stand is totally down. I ran into some clearance problems and had to cut and install it in four sections versus two. Live and learn, etc.. Today I plan on cutting holes in the top of the stand for the drain and return lines and shopping for skin materials. I may get some cutting done on those as well.

One more small update-
This is a bad news, good news type of update. The bad news is the ballast went out on my UV Sterilizer. I've only had this a little over six months. CoralLife has a one year manufacturer's warranty. I bought it from Big Al's, so I gave them a call asking their advice. The good news is they told me to ship it back to them and they would replace it with a brand new one. I'll be shipping that back today. Turn around time should be less than two weeks to have a new one here at the house. I feel like Big Al's has gone above and beyond their responsibility in replacing this and they've always given me the best customer service (which is a big deal to me) with the best pricing too. So, I would reccomend Big Al's for any of your interwebz shopping aquarium needs.

As always, thanks for looking. :thumb:


----------



## roman_back

any updated photos?


----------



## roman_back

also as well as u.. i am doing the agressive community in my tank.. and as u stated i have no real big problems at this time either.. i think i have the recipe for ur majic water :lol: congrats to you and this thread has gave me inspiration when everyone else said it wont work!!! :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> also as well as u.. i am doing the agressive community in my tank.. and as u stated i have no real big problems at this time either.. i think i have the recipe for ur majic water :lol: congrats to you and this thread has gave me inspiration when everyone else said it wont work!!! :thumb:


I'll get some new tank photos up for you tonight. Good luck with your setup. It sounds cool, but that dovii more than likely won't work out and will definately get too big for your 140g. You probably need a 180g minimum for a male and a 240g would be better.

I would love nothing more than to have a dovii in my tank and have all five Parachromis together. But their reputation of total intolerance to tankmates has kept me from trying it. And please remember, because it's working for me doesn't guarantee it'll work for you. But, good luck though. Keep us updated and thanks for the kind words. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

I've got bad, bad news. My daughter came back from her grandparents excited to see the new eggs. Well, she ran up to the tank and it spooked Tiny. He slammed into the glass on the side of the tank *very* hard. He's not doing well at all. He's still breathing for now, but can't swim. I don't know if he'll make it or not.

So, needless to say, I'm pretty torn up right now. Time will tell. Say a plittle prayer for Tiny.


----------



## BlackShark11k

Good luck with tiny, hope he recovers...


----------



## swamptrout

no good with Tiny, hope he pulls through.

can the daughter go back ?


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## terd ferguson

Thanks guys. He's still alive, but only just barely. He was trying to swim when I checked on him three hours ago (5:30 a.m. my time). But I don't think he's going to make it.


----------



## FiremouthShogun

sorry to hear that but hope he pulls through.

My nieces did the same thing on the 4th my jaw dropped..noooooooooo...


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## DirtyBlackSocks

Bummer Terd


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## terd ferguson

Thanks you two. Tiny is still alive, but again, just barely. He's laying on his side on the bottom. He's moving his fins and his gills, but doesn't want to try to swim. If I get the net near him, he'll swim away. When I say swim away, it's not normal swimming. It's uncoordinated and sideways and he ends up sliding back to the bottom on his side. He's not really moving his tail. I'm worried he may have broken his spine or something. I've seen him move it only a couple of times when he tries to swim since the injury. No one has bothered him and it seems like Albie, who was kind of his buddy before, is trying to get him off the bottom occasionaly. Anyway, he has messed himself up pretty bad. 

I'm still holding out hope but I'm afraid I'm just prolonging his suffering. I've adopted a wait and see approach and will give him a couple of more days to see how he does. When I found a big Oscar on the floor after he jumped out a few months ago, he recovered but it took him a few days. So, this gives me hope for Tiny. I'm certainly open to any advice.

Also, seconds after Tiny's injury, Teeny immediately took over daddy duties watching over the eggs with Shorty. She didn't like this at first and would shoo him away, but came around to accept him after a couple of hours. The eggs have hatched, but I'm having a hard time seeing the fry. Shorty is still guarding something she's hidden in the rocks, I assume this is the fry ball. When they become free swimming, I'm sure I'll see them.

Aside from all this, I got the holes cut in the top of the stand for the drain and return lines. I also got some 1/4" oak plywood for the outside and cut it to shape. I still have to attach that and also procure all the decorative trim/moulding and cut and fit that. I bought the stain and polyeurothane as well. I'm going to call it 75% done so far.

It's been very hard for me to get motivated with Tiny being injured. It's really bringing me down. He is my favorite and my best looking and biggest fish. I miss not seeing him cruising around and seeing him laying on the bottom is tearing me up. 

I'll definately be keeping some of the fry from this spawn to somehow keep Tiny's memory alive should he not recover. I'll try and get myself back into the groove of things and get going again, hard as that may be. It's just hard to get excited about it with things the way they are. I'll update with Tiny's condition when I have any news. Thanks again for looking.


----------



## fishkeeper93

good luck with the fry and hope tiny makes a full recovery


----------



## terd ferguson

fishkeeper93 said:


> good luck with the fry and hope tiny makes a full recovery


Thanks. I went out and got a small set up (14g) for the fry today. I finally saw some of them. Shorty has them hidden under a rock. As soon as they're free swimming, I'll syphon them out and put them in the new set up.

As for Tiny, I'm thinking he's paralyzed from the "waist" down. If this is the case, I'm pretty sure there will be no recovery. He is still breathing and moving his gills. He also is moving his pectoral fins. But, he hasn't moved his tail at all. I tried picking him up and there was no resistance from the waist down. He still tries to swim a few times a day, but with no tail movement.

This really sucks. At least Tiny will live on through his offspring. Don't get me wrong, I haven't given up yet. But it's not looking good.


----------



## remarkosmoc

Condolences. That's really a bummer but if he doesn't make it as you said you have a set of offspring he can live on through. I've never heard of them hitting the glass hard enough for preferment injury. I had a pair that I couldn't turn the lights on before dawn or they would freak out and I would hear thump,thump,thump for 10 seconds as they swam frantically and hit all 4 walls, but they never hurt themselves, I just learned to do do without pre-dawn light in that room!.


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## terd ferguson

tannable75 said:


> Condolences. That's really a bummer but if he doesn't make it as you said you have a set of offspring he can live on through. I've never heard of them hitting the glass hard enough for preferment injury. I had a pair that I couldn't turn the lights on before dawn or they would freak out and I would hear thump,thump,thump for 10 seconds as they swam frantically and hit all 4 walls, but they never hurt themselves, I just learned to do do without pre-dawn light in that room!.


Thanks for the kind words. :thumb: He hit the glass so hard, I thought the tank was going to break or fall over. The sound was sickening. He's still not improving.

Fishes can do a lot of damage to themselves by flipping out like that. The other big male jag, Teeny, hurt himself pretty bad when I first got him . I got him from an LFS that was closing. When we were netting him out of the tank at the store, he hit his head on a corner of the bracing at the top of the tank. He hit it so hard, that he gouged his head and you could see his spine. It healed up just fine though. If you look closely at Teeny's pictures, you can see a sort of "notch" on his forhead right above his eyes.

Here's a photo to illustrate. You can click on it to make it larger...


----------



## mr.fuji

Sorry to hear about your Jag  
I once had a severum slam into the glass so hard he knocked himself out.
He was face down in the sand,so I picked him up and pushed him through the water a bit and he came back.


----------



## roman_back

as i sit here a work, board out of my mind :zz: i finnaly get a chance to read up on this complete thread.. and what an amazing thread this is. i feel me and u have alot in common, as my dovi and my red terrors, which i now found out are myans... became rescues and my quest for the agressive community was kinda thrown in my lap. the dovi at my lfs was labled a red devil.. i kindly told the owner what he had.. and he quickly noted "its yours if ya want it" so i took it home. it was maybe an inch long and was almost gar food twice. but it survived. the larger of my myans was in a 5 gallon bucket and i was just kinda browsing around my lfs and the lady that had it stated these exact words to the owner " this is a pretty fish but it keeps killing all my angel fish, and it was outgrowing my 29 gallon"... :roll: as soon as i heard that i asked what she wanted for it and that it would go to a good home.. and she just handed me the bucket. so i do know where u are coming from on the rescues and i actually read the statement you made about the hobby being expensive.. That is the realest advice i have heard.. and i got stupid and wanted to blow money... so i bought the fluaval fx-5(by the way, in my opinion the BEST canister on the market) and 160lbs of Tahitian moon sand, on top of the 50-120 dollar pieces of drift wood and i have 1 100lb slab of white granite as my center piece and 2 20lb pieces of marble and a few other expensive little 4-8 lb rocks as well. but to make a long story short. it takes money to do this hobby right and as with u the clean water.. plenty of territories and lots of observation it is possible, and i fully agree with you on the whole feeding live feeders to keep agression down... dang it... IT WORKS!!! but your tank seems to be going better than mine as mine is only a 140 and i have a juvi dovi who thinks he is 10ft tall and bulletproof. i have the common gill flaring but thats it.. they all seem to respect each other and they all get along. this by far is one of the best threads i have encounter and i guess it touches home. i hear it all the time that my tank is a disaster waiting to happen.. and im not doubting it will but i have spare tanks waiting for "safe tank" purposes and i hate to see a fish suffer of be mistreated. but it is a beautiful sight to see these natural pretators live in harmony in my very own livin room. it makes the $2,900 i have in my tank well worth the price.. big props to you terd and i have your back on this one.. i say keep the info comming and the heck with all the haters!!! people sometimes get jealous when you accomplish something that they cant :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

mr.fuji said:


> Sorry to hear about your Jag
> I once had a severum slam into the glass so hard he knocked himself out.
> He was face down in the sand,so I picked him up and pushed him through the water a bit and he came back.


Thanks. I tried holding him under the oxygen bubbles and moved him back and forth but it didn't help. He was breathing ok, just not moving his back half.


----------



## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> as i sit here a work, board out of my mind :zz: i finnaly get a chance to read up on this complete thread.. and what an amazing thread this is. i feel me and u have alot in common, as my dovi and my red terrors, which i now found out are myans... became rescues and my quest for the agressive community was kinda thrown in my lap. the dovi at my lfs was labled a red devil.. i kindly told the owner what he had.. and he quickly noted "its yours if ya want it" so i took it home. it was maybe an inch long and was almost gar food twice. but it survived. the larger of my myans was in a 5 gallon bucket and i was just kinda browsing around my lfs and the lady that had it stated these exact words to the owner " this is a pretty fish but it keeps killing all my angel fish, and it was outgrowing my 29 gallon"... :roll: as soon as i heard that i asked what she wanted for it and that it would go to a good home.. and she just handed me the bucket. so i do know where u are coming from on the rescues and i actually read the statement you made about the hobby being expensive.. That is the realest advice i have heard.. and i got stupid and wanted to blow money... so i bought the fluaval fx-5(by the way, in my opinion the BEST canister on the market) and 160lbs of Tahitian moon sand, on top of the 50-120 dollar pieces of drift wood and i have 1 100lb slab of white granite as my center piece and 2 20lb pieces of marble and a few other expensive little 4-8 lb rocks as well. but to make a long story short. it takes money to do this hobby right and as with u the clean water.. plenty of territories and lots of observation it is possible, and i fully agree with you on the whole feeding live feeders to keep agression down... dang it... IT WORKS!!! but your tank seems to be going better than mine as mine is only a 140 and i have a juvi dovi who thinks he is 10ft tall and bulletproof. i have the common gill flaring but thats it.. they all seem to respect each other and they all get along. this by far is one of the best threads i have encounter and i guess it touches home. i hear it all the time that my tank is a disaster waiting to happen.. and im not doubting it will but i have spare tanks waiting for "safe tank" purposes and i hate to see a fish suffer of be mistreated. but it is a beautiful sight to see these natural pretators live in harmony in my very own livin room. it makes the $2,900 i have in my tank well worth the price.. big props to you terd and i have your back on this one.. i say keep the info comming and the heck with all the haters!!! people sometimes get jealous when you accomplish something that they cant :thumb:


Thanks. I'm really glad you enjoyed it. I like this part of your post the best...



roman_back said:


> but it is a beautiful sight to see these natural predators live in harmony in my very own living room.


I know exactly what you mean. It's a good feeling and an awesome sight. I appreciate the kind words and thanks again for reading. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

I got some more done on the stand. I put 1/2" plywood on all four sides of the outside for more lateral support. Each of the sides is one solid piece of plywood for more strength. This was an addition not in my original plans. But the extra $30 is a cheap price to pay for more peace of mind. Better safe than sorry and all that. I cut out holes for the doors in the front and on top for the drains and returns. I cut out holes for a door on the left and right sides (on the ends) as well after the photo was taken. It would've been easier to use multiple smaller pieces of plywood for each side (where the doors are) instead of one solid piece, but it wouldn't have been as strong and wouldn't provide as much lateral (side to side) support.

The next step will be to nail up the oak plywood and trim. I'll be using 1/4" oak plywood, 1"x6" oak, and oak moulding. The moulding is the most complicated part of the build. If you've ever tried to cut accurate 45's and getting them to match up, you know what I'm talking about. I'm going for as few visible seams as possible. And there's not a lot of room for error, oak is crazy expensive. But, it'll be worth it. It should look awesome.

Anyway, here's a shot from the front of the stand with some Reds for size reference. Remember, this is 98" long x 38" wide x 36" tall. I would have liked for it to be shorter, but my current wet/dry sump setup prevents this. 









This is not my stand but it will give you the general impression of the look I'm trying to achieve. 








A guy on reefcentral built this one. There are some real pro woodworkers over there. If you ever get the chance, you should check out their DIY forum here...
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=0398f6c048da8d9cc1f6eb8b82bc5e30&forumid=3 
Even though it's a reefer forum, I've learned so much about so many facets of fishkeeping that are applicable to freshwater just by browsing around over there. It's a great forum.

I've already got the oak plywood cut and ready to fit. I'll try to get on that tomorrow. Of course, I'll get some more photos of the progress.

More updates soon and as always, thanks for looking. :thumb:


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## oscarlover43055

Those pics were taken on the "marlboro" smoke break. But wow, if you make that you can come make me one too. What is the stock list going to be for the tank?


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## terd ferguson

oscarlover43055 said:


> Those pics were taken on the "marlboro" smoke break. But wow, if you make that you can come make me one too. What is the stock list going to be for the tank?


All the fishes in the 190g are going in the new tank. And it's not that hard to do this kind of stuff. And I can't come to Jersey, it's a little too far. lol. 

Thanks for looking. :thumb:


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## roman_back

you get that tank you gonna try a dovi?


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## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> you get that tank you gonna try a dovi?


I would love to add a dovii. I just don't know if I want to risk that. I mean, I've been very fortunate so far with being able to have all these predators together. But, there's not too many other fishes that are as intolerant of tankmates as a big male dovii.

I know a lot of dovii keepers. I've talked to a lot of them at length regarding the idea of adding a dovii. My ultimate (probably unreachable) goal was to be able to have all five of the Parachromis together. In talking with these folks, in all but the largest setups (thousands of gallons), the dovii ultimately would end up killing anything else it was housed with aside from a mate. And a lot of times the male dovii is responsible for killing it's mate as well.

Don't get me wrong, I love the dovii. As far as I'm concerned, a big full grown male dovii is one of the most awesome sights in an aquarium. And I'm glad you're doing well with yours. I just don't know if I'm ready to risk it.

Please share with me more of your experiences with your dovii in your community setting. What size tank is he in and what is the stocking? How often and what do you feed? How has his growth been? How does he get along with his tankmates? etc. Feel free to share anything and everything about your setup and your dovii in this thread. I appreciate hearing from anyone who is keeping a dovii with tankmates. And if you have pictures, post them up. I love to see those doviis. 8)

Here's one a guy over on MFK has. When I see pictures like this, I'm just in awe of how cool dovii are. Like I said, I'd love to be able to try it. I just don't know if it's possible and I'd be afraid I'd be pushing my luck a little too far.


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## roman_back

here are a few photos of my dovi, *** had him for 7 months and i had him gave to me when he was about an inch long, he is now currently 4 inches and a hog, he eats a bunch. he is in my 140 with the stock thats in my signature. he keeps my convics on edge right now cause my con's are spawning and laying eggs in their terra cotta pot. that so far is the only threating agression i get is when my con's spawn and the dovi and sal eat the eggs and wrigglers. i think now the cons know their place and almost without any trouble give up thier nest and this round seems to be goin better. my con's just had eggs last night and they almost get the drill and they kinda sence that the only reason they are in my tank is for the other fish to eat thier eggs and they seem to allow it and accept it now. the first pic is when i first got the dovi and it was in dec-jan?? the last ones are last week. 



























here is my little red terror and him and the salvini are the main two i have agression problems with. and its just more of a gill flareing and ha ha look at me.


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## roman_back

and here is my tank. its a 140.


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## terd ferguson

Thanks for sharing those pics. Your fish look great. Your dovii looks to me like a hybrid. It's all Parachromis, but it looks like a dovii x jag or a dovii x freddy (or it could be the lighting and angle of your pic). I'm not hardcore anti-hybrid like a lot of people are around here, although I can understand their reasoning. That's too big of a discussion for this thread, but suffice it to say that hybridization does occur in the wild. I've seen a couple of dovii x jag and dovii x other Parachromis and they were some awesome looking fishes (like yours). The ones I've seen looked great and had the dovii aggression x10. In fact, one of the best looking Parachromis I've seen was a dovii x jag.

I'd like to see some more pictures of this fish if you don't mind taking/posting some more. Especially a good side full profile shot. Try shining a bright light on him, like a flashlight when you take the shot. A camera flash will just reflect off the glass and mess up the picture. Also, try taking the pics at night with no other lights on in the house except the tank lights.

I really look forward to seeing more of this fish. Your salvini looks great too. He's got nice finnage and great colors. Your Red Terror looks like it's got great potential as well. Thanks again for sharing. :thumb:

Check out this dovii x flowerhorn at about 15"...


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## roman_back

I will go home tonight and get some photos. its 6:15pm and ill be back in the morning wit some pictures. be ready ill have a bunch lol :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> I will go home tonight and get some photos. its 6:15pm and ill be back in the morning wit some pictures. be ready ill have a bunch lol :thumb:


Thanks again. Can't wait to see the pics. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

As I was searching through some old photos reminiscing about Tiny, it occurred to me that I've never shared how the 190g came about. I was searching for a suitable tank for a couple of months to start this CA/SA project about a year ago. I bought a 55g and a few fishes to go in there with the intention of growing them out and moving them when a good deal was found on a large tank. Back then, I had a beautiful female JD (now in Toby H's breeding project), a couple of GT's, the female loiselli, a one inch tiger O, the synodontis, and a couple of 3/4" jags in a seperate 10g. One of those tiny jags is now Shorty.

Here's that tank.


















One of these tiny two is Shorty.









Here's that tiny Tiger Oscar. He later jumped out of the 190g when he was almost a foot long. Another lesson learned the hard way, a good lid is a must.









And here's that JD. Maybe Toby will post some updated shots of her. HINT HINT. It's been a while since I've seen her.









Shortly after setting up the 55g, I found a suitable sized tank. It's my current 190g. A deal was made to trade my Craftsman rolling tool chest for the tank and a sump full of bio balls. It had previously been a reef tank in a local Burger King but had been empty for some time. The guy I got it from said it would probably need resealing. No big deal, right? Here's how I brought it home. Notice the overflow box in the very center of the tank (more on this later).










I got it all cleaned up and was ready to move it in the house. 190g of 1/2" glass is heavy, about 500 pounds heavy. I recruited a neighbor to help me get it in the house. I planned on resealing it inside the house in case of bad weather. Did I mention I have an extremely understanding wife that puts up with dumb stuff like resealing giant tanks inside? Well, as we got through the sliding glass door and got into the kitchen, he bumped into his feet and dropped his end right in the floor. I was somehow miraculously able to hold my end, but the damage had been done. One of the big panes busted. Luckily, neither of us were hurt and only one pane was broken. Another lesson learned the hard way, get more people to move heavy tanks.

So that solved the resealing deal. I decided to take the whole thing apart and get a new piece of glass and put it all back together. I had to call 25 glass shops to get a decent price. I ended up paying $115 for a 5'x30" pane 1/2" thick. The prices ranged from that all the way to well over $400. The bonus turned out to be that the glass was low iron and much clearer than the other panes still unbroken. I decided to make this the front of the tank.

So, I cut out the silicone in the overflow box and removed it. I cut away the broken pane and then the rest. I had to remove every scrap of old silicone with razor blades and then finished it off with rubbing alcohol to make sure it was clean. I got some 90 degree corner clamps and a bunch of silicone from Lowes and got to work. I had a buddy help me set the panes. I let each pane cure for a day, but you can do it all in one step.

Here it is in my living room being put back together. Notice the broken pane against the wall in the background. I also relocated the center overflow box from the center to the back wall.









Seeing as how the bottom of the tank was drilled in the center for the center overflow box, I had to make some changes to the plumbing. Here's what I came up with. Unlike the drawing, I ended up building Durso standpipes for the drains. They are super quiet, I heartily recommend them.









After getting it all back together, I built a stand much like the stand I'm building now for the new 350g. I also painted the back of the tank black. I did this in the house too as I didn't want to take a chance moving the tank outside and then back in again. Did I mention my loving, understanding wife?  I got it all set up and filled it and added the inhabitants of the 55g and some more I had picked up in the mean time. The timeline on all this was about three months from 55g to 190g.

Here it is as it was first set up and filled.

The fishes quickly redocrated and here's the most recent tank shot from July 4th. All those rocks in the first pic are still there somewhere under the sand. The fishes cover and uncover them daily along with moving them all around.









I kept picking up specimens that were on my list as I found quality examples until I got what you see now. I had never resealed a tank before, let alone putting one together from scratch. It was a very rewarding experience and I learned a lot along the way. This tank has been one giant learning experience from day one. As I've said many times before in this thread, it has been and still is a tremendous amount of work, but it has been more than worth it. The rewards of living with what I consider to be the best of the big guapotes and big cichlids far outweighs the work that has gone into this.

You can click on all the pics to view a larger version. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

The tank shot from when it was first filled was left out and it's too late to edit. So here it is.


----------



## roman_back

amazing!!  my fish re-decorate my tank all the time..i get soo mad!! lol.. i like to keep the sand all nice and even and the plants all in order ect... well thats about impossible and i now know that covering back up thier pits is a horrible idea.. especially if i am to keep peace in my tank. beautiful tank terd and here are some photos of mine from last nite.
we will start first with the tank,








the red terror
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa29 ... 017F-1.jpg
my female con
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa29 ... 016F-1.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa29 ... 002F-1.jpg
the sal
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa29 ... 015F-2.jpg








the dovi








http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa29 ... 005F-2.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa29 ... 004F-2.jpg
my jack
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa29 ... 009F-2.jpg
my myan(false red terror)








my pair of cons
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa29 ... 006F-2.jpg
my catfish
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa29 ... 007F-2.jpg
the royal pleco
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa29 ... 010F-1.jpg
and the firemouth
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa29 ... 001F-2.jpg
here is a classic photo of my firemouth, this was in the 55 about 9 months ago








enjoy!!! :thumb:


----------



## sick_lids

im not sure that you could call my tank a predatory tank, but my stock list is, oscar, jag, RD, and GT. they are all getting along just fine, although anything i add to the tank winds up dead or worse. they are all in a 120 gallon tank with tons of filtration and water changes. i love these large, predatory fish. so much personality.

oh yeah, there is a FM in there as well, i couldnt catch him to get him out, he just hangs out underneath the oscar and eats whatever he spits out!


----------



## terd ferguson

Thanks for the pics. All your fishes look great. I still wish I could see a better shot of that dovii. 8)


----------



## terd ferguson

sick_lids said:


> im not sure that you could call my tank a predatory tank, but my stock list is, oscar, jag, RD, and GT. they are all getting along just fine, although anything i add to the tank winds up dead or worse. they are all in a 120 gallon tank with tons of filtration and water changes. i love these large, predatory fish. so much personality.
> 
> oh yeah, there is a FM in there as well, i couldnt catch him to get him out, he just hangs out underneath the oscar and eats whatever he spits out!


What's worse than dead?  If they keep killing any additions, I wouldn't add any more. Maybe they're trying to tell you something, lol. It sounds like a good mix though. Got any pics?


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## TheFishGuy

Folks, please only post a maximum of five (5) pictures per post. Any more than that and the page takes forever to load.

Thanks


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## terd ferguson

Sorry about that, I had no idea. :wink:


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## TheFishGuy

No problem, most people don't


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## roman_back

terd ferguson said:


> Thanks for the pics. All your fishes look great. I still wish I could see a better shot of that dovii. 8)


well sounds like your just gonna have to come see the tank in person lol. thats about the best photos i can get of him.


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## sick_lids

i will post a pic 2morow, and i no longer even try to add any more tank mates, havent since they killed the last two, its officialy their tank!


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## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> terd ferguson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the pics. All your fishes look great. I still wish I could see a better shot of that dovii. 8)
> 
> 
> 
> well sounds like your just gonna have to come see the tank in person lol. thats about the best photos i can get of him.
Click to expand...

Kentucky is a little far to go see a fish, lol. 



sick_lids said:


> i will post a pic 2morow, and i no longer even try to add any more tank mates, havent since they killed the last two, its officialy their tank!


I'm looking forward to the pics. :thumb:


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## Big Vine

Wow, some pretty cool updates in here from you guys! :thumb: 
Terd---it's nice to be able to see how your current tank has transformed into what it is today. You've obviously put lots of hard work into it...glad it has paid off.

Sorry about Tiny though.
I didn't see it mentioned specifically, but I'm assuming he has either passed on his own or you have put him down?

Anyway, the plans for the new tank and that stand you're building look great---keep up the hard work!
BV


----------



## terd ferguson

Big Vine said:


> Wow, some pretty cool updates in here from you guys! :thumb:
> Terd---it's nice to be able to see how your current tank has transformed into what it is today. You've obviously put lots of hard work into it...glad it has paid off.
> 
> Sorry about Tiny though.
> I didn't see it mentioned specifically, but I'm assuming he has either passed on his own or you have put him down?
> 
> Anyway, the plans for the new tank and that stand you're building look great---keep up the hard work!
> BV


Thanks for the kind words. About Tiny, he's still hanging on but not improving. I'm having a difficult time deciding to euthanize him. I guess I was hoping that he would improve and that if he didn't, he'd go on his own. But I can't let him suffer with a broken back. It's just a difficult situation all around. 

As far as the stand goes, I've been able to get some more done. I've got a couple of pictures I'll post up in a little bit. Thanks again for reading. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

Here's the stand now covered in 1/4" oak plywood. One solid piece was used for each side both for strength and beauty no seams showing). You are looking at the stand laying on it's back. The front of the stand is facing up.









Here's a view with the front still facing up. The open area is the bottom of the stand. Again, one solid piece of 1/4" oak plywood.









You can now see the columns starting to take shape.









More progress on the columns.









A very expensive and very small pile of wood, lol.









Things are moving fast with the stand now. I had to borrow a brad gun and compressor as it was too hard and frustrating to drive nails through the oak 1x. I'll have some more done and some pics to show tomorrow. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


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## roman_back

lookin good man!!!  im gonna try to leave work here and head to Atlanta to the chichlid convention. good luck wit the fish and the stand!!


----------



## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> lookin good man!!!  im gonna try to leave work here and head to Atlanta to the chichlid convention. good luck wit the fish and the stand!!


Thanks. Be careful and have fun down there. I saw some pics on MonsterFishKeepers.com. There was a ton of cool fishes. Enjoy. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

I got some more work done on the stand today. The brad gun makes a world of difference for nailing through oak. Now if they could only make something to take away the headaches from cutting and fitting moulding, lol. 

Some more work on the columns.









The columns one step further.









Another view.









Here you can see the how the columns will finally look from the front.









This trim will be going along the bottom and top.









So far so good. More pics to come as more progress is made. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## Big Vine

Looking good---those columns are really nice.
As for Tiny...not sure what to tell you. If he's feeding and not getting picked on, then I suppose I'd give him some more time and see whether he manages to make some sort of miraculous recovery. As for how much time to give him---that's a tough question to answer. I would think that if things aren't looking better within a couple weeks, it may be time to consider euthanizing him. About all I can suggest is to just do whatever you think is right by him. :?

BV


----------



## terd ferguson

Big Vine said:


> Looking good---those columns are really nice.
> As for Tiny...not sure what to tell you. If he's feeding and not getting picked on, then I suppose I'd give him some more time and see whether he manages to make some sort of miraculous recovery. As for how much time to give him---that's a tough question to answer. I would think that if things aren't looking better within a couple weeks, it may be time to consider euthanizing him. About all I can suggest is to just do whatever you think is right by him. :?
> 
> BV


I appreciate the compliments on the stand. In regards to Tiny, no one is picking on him but he's not eating either. Since he's not improving and not eating, I'm sure he'll just end up starving since the injury hasn't killed him. I'll have to euthanize him. It's tme, I've given him plenty of time to show an improvement. I think letting him keep going in this condition would just be cruel and selfish. So, that's that. 

In regards to the stand, I've got it pretty much trimmed out. I ran out of 1x8 oak, I need four more feet to finish it up completely. I also need to pick up some more brads. Once I have those and make a few cuts, it'll be ready for stain.

I'm using a Pre-Stain conditioner first so that the softer pine moulding will better match the oak when staining. After that comes one or two coats of the stain itself depending on color results after the first coat. Then comes seven to nine coats of polyeurathane with steel wool and a day to cure in between each coat. Then, it'll be done. The rest is pretty much easy work. 8)

Here's a couple of more pictures of how the stand looks now. Keep in mind, it's still sitting on it's back with the front facing up.










The right side of the stand with the front still facing up.









Thanks again for looking and thanks for the advice Big Vine, I appreciate it. :thumb:


----------



## TheFishGuy

Please take this as a compliment: ( I'm a carpenter)

Not too shabby for an amature :thumb:

Do you plan to combine painting and staining?


----------



## terd ferguson

TheFishGuy said:


> Please take this as a compliment: ( I'm a carpenter)
> 
> Not too shabby for an amature :thumb:
> 
> Do you plan to combine painting and staining?


Thanks. I'm definately an amateur, lol. But thank goodness for teh intarwebz. It will end up being stained. I guess I can go ahead and tell, it'll be MinWax "Ebony". It's a black stain that is semi transparent. I've found that around 6 or 7 coats of poly with steel wool in between each coat makes it shine just right (when re-finishing military rifle wood anyway). I've already got all stuff to do it (conditioner, stain, polyeurathane, sponge rags, tack cloth, etc.). I've just got to pick up four more feet of 1x8 oak and some brads to finish the stand up. I'll probably get that later today and finish up tonight.

Here's a quick photo I found on Google images.









I think the stand's going to look awesome with the black background and black ColorQuartz. I can't wait to see it set up. It's getting closer.


----------



## terd ferguson

Well, I got everything finished except for one small detail. I was a foot short on the moulding I used on the top and bottom. The bad news is Lowes had it on clearance because they're discontinuing it. When I went to get the 1x8 oak, they didn't have any more of the moulding. So I'll have to call every Lowes in town and see if I can scare up one more piece.


----------



## LJ

Tough break with the moulding. I gotta hand it to ya Terd, you are pretty handy....man.


----------



## terd ferguson

LJ said:


> Tough break with the moulding. I gotta hand it to ya Terd, you are pretty handy....man.


Thanks. handy...man, handy man. I get it, funny jokes.  Bite off more than you can chew and then chew it. Get in over your head. If someone else can do it, chances are you can too. Don't accept no for an answer. And other motivational phrases, etc.. 

Besides that, I live with three girls (wife and daughters). When you live with three girls, things like resealing a giant tank in your living room or building a quality piece of furiture like this tank stand is a flipping cake walk.


----------



## terd ferguson

terd ferguson said:


> Well, I got everything finished except for one small detail. I was a foot short on the moulding I used on the top and bottom. The bad news is Lowes had it on clearance because they're discontinuing it. When I went to get the 1x8 oak, they didn't have any more of the moulding. So I'll have to call every Lowes in town and see if I can scare up one more piece.


Well, the early bird gets the worm, so to speak. After calling every Lowes in town, all they could do was special order it for $19 for 8'. I decided to drive to a Lowes near by (not my regular one). Well, they had five pieces even though the computer showed zero. It was on clearance too and was even cheaper than the stuff I originally bought at $5 for 8'. $3 and change for 8'. I went ahead and got it all so I'd have enough to do a canopy too. Needless to say, I'm relieved to not have to rip off all the already installed moulding and get new stuff. 8)

I'll have some pics of the stand entirely done later today. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## sick_lids

sorry it took a couple of days, but here are pics of my tank.


----------



## terd ferguson

Nice fishes sick_lids. They all look great. :thumb:

I have another update to offer as of today. The female loiselli has finally decided to lay some eggs again. It's been almost three months since the last time she did. At that time, she was dropping them every three to four weeks like clockwork with the male loiselli. None were ever able to hatch as they would be eaten before making it that far. We'll see what happens this time. If you'll remember, she chose a new partner about three weeks ago, the freddy.

And not to be outdone, Shorty, the female jag appears as if she's ready to drop eggs very soon as well. She's already cleaning out her nest and looks to be fat with eggs. This time it'll be with Teeny again.

It looks as if there will be two simultaneous spawns. And while there have been spawns previously from different pairs, they were never at the same time. Things are still calm so far. I'll update when there's news.

Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## FiremouthShogun

Really like the woodwork. As an apartment dweller I really envy you guys that have a tool shed : )

Not to mention 190+g tanks.

Good job! Looking forward to more pics.

-Sho

:thumb:


----------



## ArcticCatRider

Man, that stand is really comin' along nice. :]
It looks like the stain will turn out amazing ! :thumb: 
Good Luck! :wink:


----------



## terd ferguson

FiremouthShogun said:


> Really like the woodwork. As an apartment dweller I really envy you guys that have a tool shed : )
> 
> Not to mention 190+g tanks.
> 
> Good job! Looking forward to more pics.
> 
> -Sho
> 
> :thumb:


Didn't you see I built this in the living room?  And thanks for the compliments. :thumb:



ArcticCatRider said:


> Man, that stand is really comin' along nice. :]
> It looks like the stain will turn out amazing !
> Good Luck!


Thanks. I'm almost ready for the pre-stain conditioner. I may have that on by the end of the weekend. Pics will follow of course.


----------



## terd ferguson

The loiselli eggs were all gone this morning with no signs of wrigglers. Someone must've eaten them again. I guess they just can't get it right. :?

Everything else is still going great. I hope to have the stand stained by the end of the weekend. This would include the pre-stain conditioner and one or two coats of stain. Once this is done, it'll take about a week to apply six or seven coats of poly with a day or so to dry (and steel wool buffng) in between each coat. I'll be sure to post picture updates at each step.

Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

I'm super busy, but here's a couple of quick teasers with the pre-stain conditioner and one coat of stain.

Side of the stand facing right side up...









Front of the stand facing right side up...









I'm going to add at least one more coat of stain, maybe two. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

Another coat...










One more coat should do it.


----------



## terd ferguson

The third time's the charm...



















The polyeurathane is still to come (and more pics of course). So what do you guys think so far?

Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## stuckinthemiddle

hey Terd,

why did you change your picture in your avatar?


----------



## terd ferguson

stuckinthemiddle said:


> hey Terd,
> 
> why did you change your picture in your avatar?


Because I have discovered Squidbillies. Funniest stuff I've seen in a while.


----------



## stuckinthemiddle

ok, just wondering....by the way, that stand looks awesome. You should go into the stand business and sell them out of your home.


----------



## terd ferguson

stuckinthemiddle said:


> ok, just wondering....by the way, that stand looks awesome. You should go into the stand business and sell them out of your home.


What size, color, and price point are you looking for?


----------



## ArcticCatRider

It is looking great so far.I like that stand. The stand will really be complemented once that big, beautiful tank is sittin on top of it, full of water and fish! :thumb: :wink:


----------



## terd ferguson

ArcticCatRider said:


> It is looking great so far.I like that stand. The stand will really be complemented once that big, beautiful tank is sittin on top of it, full of water and fish! :thumb: :wink:


Thanks, I totally agree. 

Also, more jag eggs today. I think I counted close to a million, lol. Ok, well maybe not a million, but at least a thousand.  

Proud momma...









Proud poppa...


----------



## stuckinthemiddle

Holy cow thats alot of eggs! I assumed that bigger fish will lay more eggs, but it just sunk in after seeing all of those eggs!! Im used to seeing only a couple hundred con eggs. Puts things in perspective.

You ever tried siphoning the eggs out once they hatch and raising the fry?....all million of them?


----------



## terd ferguson

stuckinthemiddle said:


> Holy cow thats alot of eggs! I assumed that bigger fish will lay more eggs, but it just sunk in after seeing all of those eggs!! Im used to seeing only a couple hundred con eggs. Puts things in perspective.
> 
> You ever tried siphoning the eggs out once they hatch and raising the fry?....all million of them?


It seems as if there's more eggs each time they spawn. It was my intention to syphon out the fry last spawn. If you remember, the female, Shorty, had switched mates and spawned with Tiny. Tiny then paralyzed himself by hitting the glass. I wanted to syphon out some so he could somehow live on. But, the wrigglers disappeared that first night.

I got another small setup of 14g for the purpose of raising some fry from either the jags or the loiselli. It's up and running and cycled now. I'll take some from this spawn once they become free swimming. I wouldn't mind having another pair in the new tank, especially with Tiny not improving. I'll grow them out a little to maybe an inch and pick a few good ones to continue on with.

And as far as Tiny goes, I finally found some clove oil this past weekend. I had been looking all over and finally found it at GNC. I think that if Tiny was going to show some improvement he certainly would've done it by now. I'm sure he's a lost cause as much as it pains me to say it. I'm not usually the kind of person to give up, but there's just not a lot else I can do.


----------



## terd ferguson

I talked to Big Al's today with regards to my UV Sterilizer. They've had it for two weeks, it had to be sent to their testing facility. They determined the ballast to be defective. A brand new one is shipping out to me tomorrow. I'll be glad when I get it back and running again. With the feeding I do and some messy eaters, free floating algea can be a problem. Not to mention the desease protection makes for peace of mind. :thumb:


----------



## fishkeeper93

lovely stand terd i agree you should make make business out of it and ill be the first customer 6'x30"x30" plz ship it to england lol once again nice stand :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

fishkeeper93 said:


> lovely stand terd i agree you should make make business out of it and ill be the first customer 6'x30"x30" plz ship it to england lol once again nice stand :thumb:


Thanks for the compliments. For the right money, I'll build one and ship it anywhere.


----------



## LJ

Stand is looking great Terd.

Hey about Tiny, first off I'm really sorry about what happened.

I was thinking, when I used to live in Maryland our LFS had a paralyzed Oscar. It would just lay on its side at the bottom of the tank, but it was there for years. I was just getting into fishkeeping so I never thought to ask them how they fed it. I'm not sure why I bring story up.....I guess just because if you can find a way to feed him you might be able to keep him around.....then again maybe that would just prolong suffering.

Regardless, best of luck.


----------



## terd ferguson

LJ said:


> Stand is looking great Terd.
> 
> Hey about Tiny, first off I'm really sorry about what happened.
> 
> I was thinking, when I used to live in Maryland our LFS had a paralyzed Oscar. It would just lay on its side at the bottom of the tank, but it was there for years. I was just getting into fishkeeping so I never thought to ask them how they fed it. I'm not sure why I bring story up.....I guess just because if you can find a way to feed him you might be able to keep him around.....then again maybe that would just prolong suffering.
> 
> Regardless, best of luck.


I appreciate the story and the condolences, but I haven't been able to get Tiny to eat since his accident. I don't know if that would be fair to Tiny or not (assuming I could get him to eat). Emotion says keep him alive, logic says end his suffering. He has moved himself around the tank a few times although I've only seen him move a couple of times. Regardless, either he's paralyzed for life or he will die. Neither is a happy ending. But thanks again for the well wishes. :thumb:

On the brighter side, the jags' eggs are hatching. Shorty is moving the wrigglers to the most secure spot so far in her breeding experience. I assume she is learning and changing in order to be more successful. She is putting them in a cavity in driftwood where it's attached to slate. It is surrounded on three sides and she can guard and watch it easily.

My plan this time is to leave some fry in with the parents and syphon the rest out. The fry that I take out will be grown out to around an inch and then graded. The best few out those will be raised up a little larger to get another pair or so to eventually go in the big tank.

My "go to" LFS just got a breeding pair of jags that have since had fry, so mine going there is pretty much out. But, there are a couple of other shops in addition to some buddies and my hungry fishes that will take care of whatever I don't keep.

I'll try to get some pics up later. Thanks again for following my saga. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

Oops, I hit "quote" instead of edit.


----------



## terd ferguson

All the eggs have hatched and Shorty is cleaning off the bad eggs now. This batch looks to be the biggest so far. :thumb:


----------



## LJ

> All the eggs have hatched and Shorty is cleaning off the bad eggs now. This batch looks to be the biggest so far.


Congrats :thumb:


----------



## Big Vine

Stand is looking great!
And wow, that's a lot of eggs they laid. opcorn:

BV


----------



## ArcticCatRider

Man, that was a load of eggs there. :thumb: 
You'll have a great treat for your fish when gettin' rid of all the little ones you ain't keepin' :lol: 
Anyways, how's the stand comin'?

And I just happened to snap some pics of my dovii today. Here ya go.


----------



## terd ferguson

LJ said:


> Congrats


Thanks. :thumb:



Big Vine said:


> Stand is looking great!
> And wow, that's a lot of eggs they laid. opcorn:
> 
> BV


Thanks a lot. :thumb: About 95% ended up hatching. Most are still wriggling. I expect to have a whole bunch to syphon out tomorrow when they start swimming. 



ArcticCatRider said:


> Man, that was a load of eggs there.
> You'll have a great treat for your fish when gettin' rid of all the little ones you ain't keepin'
> Anyways, how's the stand comin'?
> 
> And I just happened to snap some pics of my dovii today. Here ya go.


I took a break from working on the stand for a couple of days. I've got to get busy getting ready to put flooring down in that room so I can hurry up and get that tank up. But your dovii and your salvini both look awesome. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

I hesitate to post the details of my Convict breeding project because I know of the flaming that will come along with it. But, regardless of recommendations otherwise, it is working for me wonderfully. I have had more spawns and fry than I can count and ZERO fish losses in the six months it has been up and running.

I started out with 14 Convict fry about six months ago in a 10g. They started pairing up and breeding just like all Convicts do. The largest males are now about 4". That's right, you heard me correctly, 14 Convicts in a 10g. I know this goes against all reasonable recommendations, but like I said, it has been working for me wonderfully.

Today, I moved this breeding project into the 14g. This went fine. I have six clay flowerpots that I moved with the Convicts. These are their houses and where they lay their eggs and care for the resulting fry. I've already got a new batch of eggs since the move. I plan to move all these convicts into the new tank once it's set up. I assume they'll be just fine based on the brutish male that has survived in the 190g since being fed as fry for food with a bunch of other Convict fry.

*Now, if you want to flame my stocking with these cons, by all means go ahead. I've heard it all before here many times. It resulted in getting another long thread of mine deleted because of anti-overstocking jibber jabber. I'll probably either ignore you or make fun of you. In my case, overstocking CA/SA's works the same as overstocking Africans in keeping down aggression (including something as rediculous as keeping 14 breeding convicts in a 10g). My tanks haven't exploded and I have had ZERO fish murders in any of my CA/SA tanks. My water quality remains excellent due to overfiltration and frequent large water changes. My fish exhibit phenomenal growth and are healthy and thriving. You can see this in my photos. In my case, overstocking CA/SA's have been more successful in regards to aggression levels than with Africans. The evidence from my posts and the pictures of my fishes with no injuries or torn fins speak for themselves, in addition to the zero murder rate in the last year. Like it or not, that's the way it is in my house. Your experience, of course, may differ, but you can't argue with my results.*

Now, thanks for reading all my posts and checking out this thread. I'll reward you with some fresh pics from today along with a couple of exciting new additions as soon as I get them converted from raw to jpeg. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

Part of the reason (besides sharing and documenting my esperiences) for posting about the Convict breeding project and move was because of the new additions. From my local aquarium club, I got 5 tiny 1/2" HRP fry and a 2" L-14 Goldy Pleco. These are now in the 10g along with two tiny 1/2" Convict fry that must've been hiding somewhere the last time I dipped out feeders. The jag fry will go in this same tank probably tomorrow when they become free swimming.

I've always loved plecos. It was my first fish when I got started in the hobby. I have a common one now with no eyes. This was the result of a Kenyii attack. I had to remove the Kenyii because of that and a murder. This was over a year ago. My LFS's never have any rare plecos so when this one came up I jumped on it. This is why I love local clubs. They are often times better than your LFS. If your'e not a member of one, join. If you don't have one in your area, start one. :thumb:

Anyway, sorry for more rambling. Pics will follow shortly. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

Sorry, double tap. Pics soon!


----------



## ArcticCatRider

terd ferguson said:


> But your dovii and your salvini both look awesome. :thumb:


Thanks man, just picked up that salvini about 2 weeks ago! She was looking washed out at the store, and I have really been wantin 1, so I got her for free....  
And since she's been in the tank, she has really got the green pearl color coming in :wink:


----------



## terd ferguson

ArcticCatRider said:


> terd ferguson said:
> 
> 
> 
> But your dovii and your salvini both look awesome. :thumb:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks man, just picked up that salvini about 2 weeks ago! She was looking washed out at the store, and I have really been wantin 1, so I got her for free....
> And since she's been in the tank, she has really got the green pearl color coming in :wink:
Click to expand...

Cool, I got a couple of tiny Salvinis from Wal-Mart I've been growing out. I think they're a male and female. They look different from each other anyway. One has black on the dorsal and the other doesn't.


----------



## terd ferguson

Oops, I tried to edit but I hit "quote".


----------



## terd ferguson

terd ferguson said:


> Oops, I tried to edit but I hit "quote".


And I did it again. :lol:

"I am so smart! S...M...R...T! I mean S...M...A...R...T!"- Homer J. Simpson


----------



## terd ferguson

The Chain Gang...









The big daddy male...









Oh so small HRP, Cryptotherus sp. Honduran Red Point, still technically undescribed but basically another kind of Convict...









Scobinancistrus aureatus, a.k.a. Sunshine Pleco, a.k.a. Goldie Pleco...









You can click on the images for larger versions. More coming. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

Bosom buddies...









Captain Awesome, male Parachromis loiselli...









Captain Awesome again...









Joe Kicka$$, male Parachromis friedrichsthalii...









Joe again...


----------



## terd ferguson

Big ol' Albie...









Bobo...









Mom tending to her young 'uns...









Enjoy! Again, click on the images for larger versions. Sorry for all the bubbles, I like bubbles. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

It's been a few days since an update. The wife, kids, and I took a little vacation to the beach down around Wilmington, NC. It was a nice break. 8)

When I left, the fry still weren't free swimming. So, I just left them in there with the parents and everyone else while we were gone. I returned to at least 1,000 free swimming fry. I syphoned about 300 out and put them in their own tank for now. There are at least twice that many left with the parents. I'd like to see some survive with the parents. I know it's a long shot, but time will tell.


----------



## terd ferguson

Tiny hadn't made any improvements in the four weeks since his injury. It was time for me to do right by him. I used clove oil and he went to sleep peacefully. He was my favorite and I'll miss him.  He was 14" from the tip of his nose to the tip of his tail. Here's my little photo tribute...





































R.I.P. Tiny, you'll be missed.


----------



## Blu-ray

Sorry to hear about your loss, terd. he was a great fish.


----------



## terd ferguson

Blu-ray said:


> Sorry to hear about your loss, terd. he was a great fish.


Thanks for the kind words. I enjoy your threads and fishes as well. Keep up the good work. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

The heater in the African tank went out last night. It was a Top Fin 200 watt model. It has lasted about a year. I'm somewhat dissappointed in that. The temperature had dropped to 76 degrees this morning from the 82 to 83 degrees I normally keep my tanks at. I picked up a new one of the same model at lunch today. I was most concerned about the female mota I have been growing out in that tank, but all is well. There appear to be no ill effects, thank goodness.

The fry I left with the parents in the main tank have been slowly disappearing again. I'm down to around 20. But this time, they've lasted a little longer. My previous record was three days I believe. So far, it's been five. It's somewhat encouraging they're lasting a bit longer this time. But my ultimate goal of having some survive all the way still appear to be unreachable. Maybe in the bigger tank it will be different. Or maybe not. We'll see.

The fry I removed to the little tank were with those tiny HRP's from the photos above. I mistakenly thought they were too small to eat the fry. But, those five little guys had a few great meals, lol. I'm not too worried about not getting any fry to raise though. I'll let you guys know why soon. You can probably figure it out if you pay attention to details. 

More later. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## stuckinthemiddle

Terd, I counted all of the fry in that bucket and there are only 299....your short one...just joking.

Awesome pics. I very much enjoy reading this thread! 

Any plans to replace tiny?...or maybe with something different?


----------



## stuckinthemiddle

One last question, are those TSN cats a pair or just hangout together? How do you sex them?


----------



## terd ferguson

stuckinthemiddle said:


> Terd, I counted all of the fry in that bucket and there are only 299....your short one...just joking.
> 
> Awesome pics. I very much enjoy reading this thread!


Thanks a lot. I'm glad you are enjoying it.



stuckinthemiddle said:


> Any plans to replace tiny?...or maybe with something different?





terd ferguson said:


> I'm not too worried about not getting any fry to raise though. I'll let you guys know why soon. You can probably figure it out if you pay attention to details.





stuckinthemiddle said:


> One last question, are those TSN cats a pair or just hangout together? How do you sex them?


TSN's breeding behavior in the aquarium is unknown so I doubt they are a pair. They do enjoy schooling together and spend a lot of time cruising around together. I don't know how to sex them. Since they are not known to breed in aquariums, I don't think it matters.

Thanks again for following. :thumb:


----------



## roman_back

now with room for one more its time for a Dovii lol


----------



## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> now with room for one more its time for a Dovii lol


That's not entirely out of the realm of possibility, but it's pretty far out there. You know I still wish it were possible. Maybe once the new tank is established for a while, I'll get a smallish male.

But, I've already made a roster change. I'm just waiting to see who notices it before posting pics. :thumb:

I should also add that I aquired some PVC to do an undergravel jet system. Total cost was around $10. I already have the powerheads to run it. Even with all the flow I currently have, none of it gets deep enough to remvoe the poop from the back corners. Hopefully, this will eliminate that problem in the new tank.

With planning the UGJ, I decide to use 1/2" piping. I decided that the smaller diameter pipe will increase the pressure enough to allow more jets per powerhead. More details and pics on this later once construction has begun.

Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

As of today, all fry are gone. They made it 7 days this time. Also, if you'll remember, I had promised my wife to get new flooring down in the room the tank is going in. Well, I started that project today. I got all the carpet ripped up and hope to start laying flooring tomorrow. After that, things should move very quickly to get this beast set up. I can hardly wait. :thumb:










Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## stuckinthemiddle

The Festae?


----------



## AnthonyB

four Jags are now listed instead of 2? (Well 3 when Tiny was alive)...

Real interesting thread, something similiar to what I have been thinking about when we finish building the new house.. But that is a ways away, although we have at least started digging the foundation..


----------



## terd ferguson

stuckinthemiddle said:


> The Festae?


Uh, no. I got the extra festae about three weeks ago as a rescue. She was beat up really bad and has some HITH. I'm trying to fix her up. She's got good color, so I hope she heals up nice. I believe I mentioned something about this in this thread a while back. But, good guess.  :thumb:



AnthonyB said:


> four Jags are now listed instead of 2? (Well 3 when Tiny was alive)...
> 
> Real interesting thread, something similiar to what I have been thinking about when we finish building the new house.. But that is a ways away, although we have at least started digging the foundation..


Ding, ding, ding. The new guy got it right.  I'm glad you like the thread. With your new house being built, it'll come faster than you think. Good luck with that and start a thread with your tank plans and what not when it comes time. :thumb:

I go to an Asian fish store about once every three months when I visit my doctor. I haven't been to that place without leaving with a fish yet. He has awesome fishes, mostly a lot of high dollar flowerhorns. Also, he's got a giant 3'+ silver arowana and always has the best looking big Green Terrors around. It's also where I got the male freddy and male loiselli, both of whom were labeled as "Gold Jaguars" (and the GT "Red Saum").

Anyway, on to the new pickups. With the loss of Tiny and the fact that jags are probably my favorite of the Parachromis I keep, I knew I needed another. The tank just seemed so empty without Tiny and I wanted another pair in the new tank. He had a small colony of sub-adults between 4" and 6". Two of these (one male and one female) exhibited what I consider awesome (and slightly unusual) coloration for their size. They both had a nice purple/violet sheen like most jags. But the female had awesome spotting/bars at about 4 1/2" and the male had a super green sheen around his face at a little over 5". So, long story short, I brought them home. They're not a pair now, but they've been hanging around together a lot.

I'll get some pics later tonight when it's dark. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## AnthonyB

Yeah, it will be here eventually.. I keep telling my wife "Whatever you want honey, just don't take away my fishtank area".. Actually, she is the one who offered up the tank idea when we first started building and has moved the tank from the office to the wall between the office and family room.. In doing so the tank went from a 6 or maybe and 8 foot length take to a 10 or maybe 12 foot length tank.. But, I will believe it when I put the order in for it and it shows up.. Been out of the "hobby" far to long and have about a billion ideas built up, will figure it out in the next 6 months or so,, nah.... Don't even like thinking or talking about it much as I might jinx myself..

Hoping to put a fish room into the basement underneath the office so I can do filtration and other tanks down there.. That is just asking for the look from the wife however so I won't push my luck yet..


----------



## terd ferguson

I finally got some pics of the new jags. Check them out.

Here's the male at about 5", maybe a little bit bigger. Notice the hint of green around the eyes and mouth. This photo was taken with a flash. It came out pretty good unlike my usual flash photos.  









The male again without flash. Check out that head shape. Very nice and very predatory for such a small size.









This is the female with the same male in the background. She's about 4 1/2" with nice coloration and spotting/bars. They've been hanging around together in my tank despite having been kept seperate at the LFS.









Another one of her.









And the two of them together again. Nice little bump on that male's head.









Sorry for all the bubbles. You can click on each image for an enlarged version. thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

I also picked up a couple more of the tiny salvinis that my Wal Mart has. They went in the African tank with the mota and the other two salvinis. It would appear that I have three females and one male out of the four, but they are still pretty small. Although one is clearly outgrowing the other of the original pair. The biggest (I suspect female) is between 2 1/2" and 3".

The reason I got two more is because a while ago, I worked out a trade deal with Toby for a male mota when my new tank is set up. I'm giving him my female JD that he's been using in his breeding project and a couple of the sals. But, I still wanted a nice one or two salvinis for the new tank.

I'd love to post some pictures of these guys, but they are very camera shy. As soon as the camera comes out, they retreat to the back corner. I will keep trying.

And while I'm at it, the female mota has put on some real size and thickness since the last photos were posted. She's pretty shy too, towards me that is not her tankmates. I would estimate that she's now right at 6". Her colors are amazing. I'll try to get some new photos of her as well.


----------



## roman_back

any photos of the festae!! and looks like u picked up a few new good lookin jags.. the question is.. since adding new fish to the tank are they gettin picked on like all the "newbies" usually do, and do u think the new additions will upset the balance of "peace" in the tank.? just kinda some food for thought i was pondering on.. let me know thanks!


----------



## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> any photos of the festae!! and looks like u picked up a few new good lookin jags.. the question is.. since adding new fish to the tank are they gettin picked on like all the "newbies" usually do, and do u think the new additions will upset the balance of "peace" in the tank.? just kinda some food for thought i was pondering on.. let me know thanks!


I took some photos of the festae the last time I posted a bunch of pictures, but they turned out blurry. I'll try to get some more. :thumb:

The two new jags aren't getting picked on. They were pretty much accepted (or ignored) right away. I don't think they will upset the dynamics any time soon. When they get larger and/or spawn may be a different story though. We'll have to wait and see. But, their personality tells me things should be ok.

When I consider a new tankmate, I watch the fishes very closely at the store for at least a 1/2 hour or more. First considerations are for quality, color, and patterning. But just as important is personality. I won't buy a "bully" that beats up or chases it's tankmates. I look for laid back (not lethargic) examples.


----------



## LJ

> I won't buy a "bully" that beats up or chases it's tankmates. I look for laid back (not lethargic) examples.


Perhaps the most critical determinant in your success?


----------



## terd ferguson

LJ said:


> I won't buy a "bully" that beats up or chases it's tankmates. I look for laid back (not lethargic) examples.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps the most critical determinant in your success?
Click to expand...

I'm sure that plays a huge part. A lot of those with single speciman aggressive tanks will pick _the_ most aggressive fish they can find. This is great when you only have one fish in the tank and makes for great personality and interaction. It's fun to watch them try and attack you through the glass and bump the top trying to get your finger. But, for a community tank setting like mine, this is probably the worst thing you could do.


----------



## ashilli48

terd ferguson said:


> I also picked up a couple more of the tiny salvinis that my Wal Mart has. They went in the African tank with the mota and the other two salvinis.


You wording leads me to believe you bought fish from Wal-Mart and they went straight into the main tank. Say it ain't so!


----------



## terd ferguson

I got a lot of work done on the floor in the last couple of days. All the carpet is ripped up and about half the flooring is down. I figure maybe two more days work and it'll be done. Once it's down, the tank stand and tank can be put into place.  8) :thumb: :dancing:  I can't wait, it's getting closer. 8)

This is the first time I've tried this kind of job. It's been surprisingly easy and the results are much better than expected. Trying to do it around that big tanks stand and some furniture is kind of aggravating though. Move something out of the way, lay some flooring, then move it again, then repeat several times. :roll: Here's a quick photo...









Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

ashilli48 said:


> terd ferguson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also picked up a couple more of the tiny salvinis that my Wal Mart has. They went in the African tank with the mota and the other two salvinis.
> 
> 
> 
> You wording leads me to believe you bought fish from Wal-Mart and they went straight into the main tank. Say it ain't so!
Click to expand...

Believe it or not, my Wal Mart has a pretty good fish department. I've gotten several fishes from them. They are always healthy and the tanks are always well taken care of. My hospital/quarantine tank has the tiny HRP's and a very small goldie pleco in it at the moment. I was afraid the sals would eat the HRP's. Besides, I've got UV sterilizers to take care of most disease causing micro-organisms. I may be pressing my luck, but I rarely quarantine new fishes (unless they come from unknown private parties like the HRP's and the goldie pleco). The places I buy from have excellent track records. That's why I buy from them.


----------



## ashilli48

What area of the country are you in? Must be a nice Wal-Mart. I gave up on them years ago. Nothing ever lived.


----------



## terd ferguson

ashilli48 said:


> What area of the country are you in? Must be a nice Wal-Mart. I gave up on them years ago. Nothing ever lived.


I'm in NC. The Wal Mart is relatively new, around a year old. So everything is still nice. I've gotten a bunch of goldfish from them with no problems (and they're usually the worst looking tanks at the bad Wal Marts). As far as cichlids go, I've gotten a couple of Africans and these four Salvinis. The Africans have been great and the first two Salvinis have had no problems for the few weeks I've had them. In fact, one in particular is turning out to be a stunner. I've been trying hard to get a good photo, but all these sals seem really camera shy.

At the end of the day, I've seen and heard of a lot of bad Wal Marts. And I've been to one or two good ones and heard of a few more on the webz. The bad seem to out number the good. But mine is pretty good. I'd go there any day over one of the LFS's in town. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

I got all the flooring laid. I still have to do the 1/4 round moulding around the baseboards and I'll be done. It won't be long now.  Here's a couple of more pics from tonight.

The floor...









My little deformed jag I got from PetSmart about six months ago. He's growing very slowly at maybe 3" (he was less than 1" when I got him), but he eats well. I've given him a better life than he would've had at the store. Check out his face and mouth.









One of the newer Salvinis I got just the other day. The biggest one I got a few weeks ago looks 100 times better than this one. Ironically, she's 100 times more difficult to photograph.









The blind pleco with no eyes.









One of my Oscars.









And then the battery went dead. You can click on the images for a larger version. Thanks again for looking. Stay tuned for more soon. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

And for roman_back, here's a shot of one of the festaes from a while back. I meant to get some shots of them tonight, but the camera's battery went dead before I could get a good one.


----------



## roman_back

THANKS!!! wonderfull looking festae you have there!!


----------



## stuckinthemiddle

Are the red terrors a pair? If so, have they spawned yet?

RTs are top on my wish list. Awesome looking fish by way, would love to see current pics! :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> THANKS!!! wonderfull looking festae you have there!!


Thanks. :thumb:



stuckinthemiddle said:


> Are the red terrors a pair? If so, have they spawned yet?
> 
> RTs are top on my wish list. Awesome looking fish by way, would love to see current pics!


They're both female. The smaller one that I got most recently was very beat up and has some HITH. Her fins and scales have healed and I'm working on the HITH.


----------



## ArcticCatRider

Terd, do you use medications to help treat the HITH on your Red Terrors?
My buddy's Oscars have a little bit of HITH and he doesn't know what to use, if there's medications, and I've never used them, b/c I don't have a problem..
Tell me how you're treating it please. :-? :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

ArcticCatRider said:


> Terd, do you use medications to help treat the HITH on your Red Terrors?
> My buddy's Oscars have a little bit of HITH and he doesn't know what to use, if there's medications, and I've never used them, b/c I don't have a problem..
> Tell me how you're treating it please. :-? :thumb:


I've just increased my water change schedule in dealing with the HITH. I don't like to use a lot of chemicals (other than dechlorinating) or meds unless absolutely necessary. With that said, I don't have any previous experience with HITH, only what I've read here, MFK, and Google searches. The common thread seems to be water changes.

I may end up moving this little RT to a seperate tank where even more frequent water changes wouldn't be such a hassle. I'll get her straightened out. Good luck to your buddy. :thumb:


----------



## illy-d

I can't wait to see photos of the tank & stand in place!!!


----------



## severumfreak

how agressive is stuart? i have 2 and want to know how mean they get.


----------



## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> I can't wait to see photos of the tank & stand in place!!!


Thanks. Me neither. It shouldn't be too much longer now. Days instead of weeks. 8)



severumfreak said:


> how agressive is stuart? i have 2 and want to know how mean they get.


My GT's are as laid back as they come. But, that doesn't necessarily mean yours will be. Each fish will have a different personality and react differently to tankmates. It also depends on the size of their tank and available territories (the larger the better). With a big enough tank, you can get any fish to coexist with tankmates. Good luck. :thumb:


----------



## ArcticCatRider

Thanks Terd, I am gonna try and get my buddy to join on here, soon as he gets back in town.
Thataway, if he has questions, he can ask. But I'll start helpin' him on the waterchanges, he's fairly new. :wink:

Anyways, how's the flooring coming? I wanna see that big 'ol purty tank all setup and full of fish!!! :lol: :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

ArcticCatRider said:


> Thanks Terd, I am gonna try and get my buddy to join on here, soon as he gets back in town.
> Thataway, if he has questions, he can ask. But I'll start helpin' him on the waterchanges, he's fairly new. :wink:


That's a great idea. There are a lot more knowledgeable folks here than me when it comes to treating disease. But, waterchanges are definately the main treatment for HITH. Good luck. :thumb:



ArcticCatRider said:


> Anyways, how's the flooring coming? I wanna see that big 'ol purty tank all setup and full of fish!!! :lol: :thumb:


The flooring is finished for the most part. I had to go out today and get one more piece of quarter round shoe moulding to finish it up. I'm about to cut it right now and nail it in place. After that, I can start moving the furniture back in and set up the stand where it's going to go. Then I just have to round up a few buddies to set the tank up and test fill it. It's all downhill from there. Like I said earlier, it's now days rather than weeks.


----------



## terd ferguson

The floor is done and the stand is in place!   8)










The furniture is still not where it's going to go, but who cares, lol. The end of the room looks much smaller with the 9' wide stand there. The stand is in the center of the wall and I've got about 2 1/2' on either side of the stand. I'm going to leave the ends of the stand open for two small (14g) tanks and the 2 1/2' on each side should leave me room to get to those. The front of the stand will have doors to hide the sump, but those will come later. I found a place online that sells unfinised oak cabinet doors real cheap, between $10 and $30 each depending on size. I'll stain and poly them to match the stand after everything is set up and running.

So, the next step is to get my 1/2" Dow insulating foam cut and laid down and then set the tank up on the stand. After that, it's all easy.


----------



## remarkosmoc

That is going to be a nice room. I like the layout with the big tank on one side and the fireplace on the adjacent wall.


----------



## terd ferguson

tannable75 said:


> That is going to be a nice room. I like the layout with the big tank on one side and the fireplace on the adjacent wall.


Thanks a lot. I'm still deciding if I want it on the wall opposite of the fireplace. It's a little longer (18' vs. 13') plus it has two outlets versus one outlet. It'll probably stay where it is though because that's where the wife would like it to be. I'll just deal with the outlets (or lack of).


----------



## stuckinthemiddle

I was gonna ask you about outlets. How many plugs are you going to be using?

Also, whats the dow foam for and it goes under the tank, but on top of the stand?

Looks awesome by the way, cant wait to see it with fish in there! Whats your ETA on that by the way? one week? :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

stuckinthemiddle said:


> I was gonna ask you about outlets. How many plugs are you going to be using?
> 
> Also, whats the dow foam for and it goes under the tank, but on top of the stand?
> 
> Looks awesome by the way, cant wait to see it with fish in there! Whats your ETA on that by the way? one week? :thumb:


I use three power strips for the current setup. This includes the two small tanks too. It'll probably be the same for the new set up. There are other outlets close by, but only one on the wall the stand is on.

The Dow Insulating Foam goes between the stand and the tank bottom. It evens out any small irregularites in the top of the stand that could lead to stresses on the tank's structure over time.

All I really have left to do is get the tank on the stand and test fill it, wash 400 pounds of sand, move the sump and other equipment and then move the fishes. It shouldn't take too long. Washing all that sand is the hardest part I've got left to do.


----------



## ArcticCatRider

Terd, aren't you going with black sand this time? Like, 3M colorquartz?
Any ways, Good Luck on washing all of that. Gonna be a P.I.T.A
But, the best wishes...
any update pics of the fish or tank?


----------



## terd ferguson

ArcticCatRider said:


> Terd, aren't you going with black sand this time? Like, 3M colorquartz?
> Any ways, Good Luck on washing all of that. Gonna be a P.I.T.A
> But, the best wishes...
> any update pics of the fish or tank?


Yes, I'll be using 3M ColorQuartz in black. I had some in a 55g a while back and it looked really good and brought out the fishes color a lot more. No new updates for now. I'm waiting on help to get the tank on the stand. It should be on the stand this weekend. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

I did a big water change today and less than an hour later, the female loiselli has laid eggs again. The female jag (not the new one) looks to be ready to lay some eggs any time now as well.

Stay tuned for a photo soon. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

Check this out...


----------



## Joels fish

Pretty sweet :thumb: :drooling:


----------



## Toby_H

Looks nice Kevin, real nice...

Let me know when your ready for the other Mota


----------



## terd ferguson

Joels fish said:


> Pretty sweet :thumb: :drooling:


Thanks.



Toby_H said:


> Looks nice Kevin, real nice...
> 
> Let me know when your ready for the other Mota


Soon, real soon.  Those Salvinis are turning out really nice. One is clearly outgrowing the others and I think it's female. I bought two more (all they had) last time I was at that Wal Mart so I could still have one or two. 

By the way, I never asked, how big is that male mota? And if you have a pic or two, please share.  Also, a pic or two of that female JD would be cool too. I'd like to see how she's looking now. :thumb:


----------



## trimac

Terd, sweet-alright man send that magic water-my word is my word (remember a year ago)


----------



## Toby_H

The Mota is about 8~9â€


----------



## terd ferguson

trimac said:


> Terd, sweet-alright man send that magic water-my word is my word (remember a year ago)


Yay, I am "teh cichlid king".  Seriously, I appreciate your PM over on MFK. I have a new respect for you, you are a man of your word.



Toby_H said:


> The Mota is about 8~9â€


----------



## terd ferguson

I worked on my plumbing today. I got the Durso Standpipes done. I'm 99% finished with the PVC returns and the UGJ. I have to pick up a couple more PVC fittings to finish those up. I had to modify my returns to clear the standpipes which is why I have to get more fittings for those (the returns). I also have to get a barbed fitting to connect the powerheads to the UGJ, somehow I forgot those when I bought all my PVC.

I'll pick up those fittings tomorrow and get all the PVC painted black with Krylon Fusion. Then it's on to washing all that sand. It's almost finished. 

Check it out...









You can see the returns on the right. I had to take them sideways and then back vertical to clear the big standpipes. The holes in the bottom of the overflow box are a little too close together. I need a couple more 90's to get the returns finished. But otherwise, everything's going smooth so far.

Also, if you read earlier, the loiselli laid more eggs yesterday. Well, she ate most of those eggs today. Shorty, the larger female jag, has laid a bunch more eggs today. Since the loiselli has started laying eggs again after a few months of no eggs, I was hoping to have two groups of fry at the same time. But, I'll have to hope for next time.










Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## trimac

Keep on rocking with your fish-my Umbee got sick and so did I-who I am to say that you don't care about your fish-I do like your 5 Parachromis idea it would be rad if you could pull it off-good luck-but I don't think you need that-good job!! :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

trimac said:


> Keep on rocking with your fish-my Umbee got sick and so did I-who I am to say that you don't care about your fish-I do like your 5 Parachromis idea it would be rad if you could pull it off-good luck-but I don't think you need that-good job!! :thumb:


Thanks Art. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

I got all my plumbin painted. It's curing now. I also nelected to report that I finally ot my UV Sterilizer back fro Big Al's last Thursday. It's been hooked back up and operating again. Today, I had to pick up the other 200 pounds of ColorQuartz. I finally have everything needed. I've been given one more quick chore to do before I can fill the tank. I have to paint that room now. That should take maybe two days and then water starts going in. :thumb:

I also finally gave in and picked up a male grammodes. The store guy gave me a bit of a break on the price and I could no longer resist, lol. I'll get some pics up later.


----------



## Toby_H

It's so close I can taste it...

I'll touch base with you this weekend about dropping the Mota off next week... I can't wait to see it...


----------



## terd ferguson

Toby_H said:


> It's so close I can taste it...
> 
> I'll touch base with you this weekend about dropping the Mota off next week... I can't wait to see it...


That's cool. That one Salvini that's outgrowing the others is looking awesome. The others look good too, but that one is just better than the rest. I think you'll be really happy.

Oh, and you think _you_ can't wait to see it. lol.


----------



## terd ferguson

Ok, as promised, here are the two best shots I could get of the grammodes. This guy is cool. He is quickly becoming one of my favorites. These shots don't do him a lot of justice, but he's got crazy blue and a lot of red spots. I think he's going to be a real looker. Check him out...



















Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

Here's a small new tank update. I'm going to pick up paint tomorrow for the room. That should take two days to do two coats. I'll be washing the sand in between coats of paint. I plan on having water and fishes in the new tank before the coming weekend is up.

Also, here's some other things I've been thinking about. A buddy has made me a ridiculous offer for my big female RT. Like an offer I can't refuse, lol. If you remember, I picked up those two TSN's for a steal. I've also got a decent offer on the table for those. Mind you, I haven't offered these for sale. It's just a couple of buddies of mine who obviously like them a lot more than me and are willing to show it with cash. 

So, you guys also know how much I love the guapotes and that my dream was to have all five Parachromis together somehow. The LFS where the Jeff Rapps grammodes came from is supposed to get about a dozen 5" male doviis of great quality tomorrow.

So, I'm thinking of moving the smaller female RT with the HITH to her own tank in order to better treat her condition with even more frequent waterchanges. This will be easier in a smaller tank. I got her with the HITH but great color for next to nothing if you recall. I'm also thinking of taking this big pile of money for the other RT and TSN's. And if that happens, I'm seriously thinking of picking up the best male dovii that comes in to replace the RT's and TSN's if the dovii is up to my standards (looks and temperament).

Call me crazy, but I think I'm going to give it a shot. If there are problems, I can always return the dovii (or lose a fish, it's a gamble). It should, however, be very interesting. Long story short, 2 different pairs of jags, a pair of motas, loiselli/freddy pair, male loiselli, male dovii, grammodes, 2 O's, the synodontis (and maybe an additional syno for clean up) and maybe my convict colony too in the new tank. That would be 11 guapotes plus the O's and syno(s) and maybe the dozen or so cons. The convicts are the only "maybe" as far as going in the new tank.

Toby will be taking 2 of my four Salvinis I've been growing out. As to the other two, I haven't yet decided. Maybe he'll want those too or I'll grow them out a little more and sell/trade them. Or maybe I'll keep them. I don't know if the two GT's would be up for this new stocking or not. They already have trouble competing for food with all the big guys now. Their growth has been very slow, although they're healthy otherwise.

I'm just kind of thinking out loud and may be getting a little ahead of myself. All I know is that all five Parachromis plus the grammy and O's (and maybe the cons and maybe the GT's) would make a much more awesome and interesting tank. I'm going to seriously think about this idea some more and let you guys know what I decide tomorrow after seeing the doviis. 

Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## ashilli48

I'm rooting for your man! But, if had'nt seen dovii in person I might think you had a chance. And the dovii I saw were small too!

Will be watching. opcorn:


----------



## roman_back

Well my friend good luck!! and as u know i have a dovi in my tank and all is still fine!! i even have the pair of cons and a sal in my tank.. as you spoke of with your GT my firemouth is getting that way. he isnt growing and is at the bottom of the food chain in my tank. he isnt getting picked on and is actually holding his own. but he struggles for food. im in the process of clearing out my africans out of my 55 and ill move the firemouth and cons over to it to kinda get the smaller less "tempermental" fish out of the big tank. thanks for the update terd and ill keep ya posted with mine as well!! -happy fishkeeping-


----------



## terd ferguson

ashilli48 said:


> I'm rooting for your man! But, if had'nt seen dovii in person I might think you had a chance. And the dovii I saw were small too!
> 
> Will be watching. opcorn:


I hear you. I hear stories like that too. We'll see. It will be awesome if it is able to work out. I'm not aware of anyone with all five Parachromis in anything under "thousands of gallons". So this is sort of uncharted territory. Well, maybe not "uncharted", I'm sure someone's probably tried this before (probably unsuccessfully). My advantages would be that the dovii is smaller and the other Parachromis are already bonded and established. So, if the dovii is a trouble maker, it would be more like 2 vs. 1 in any potential conflict. Almost anyone the dovii would choose to go after has a mate. Maybe this will discourage any bad behavior. I will also be able to pick from about a dozen males. This will allow me to try and find the most laid back example. My only disadvantage is the reputation of the dovii itself.

I'm still waiting to hear about the doviis coming in. But it should be anytime.



roman_back said:


> Well my friend good luck!! and as u know i have a dovi in my tank and all is still fine!! i even have the pair of cons and a sal in my tank.. as you spoke of with your GT my firemouth is getting that way. he isnt growing and is at the bottom of the food chain in my tank. he isnt getting picked on and is actually holding his own. but he struggles for food. im in the process of clearing out my africans out of my 55 and ill move the firemouth and cons over to it to kinda get the smaller less "tempermental" fish out of the big tank. thanks for the update terd and ill keep ya posted with mine as well!! -happy fishkeeping-


Thanks buddy. I will more than likely rehome the GT's too, either in one of my tanks or a friend's. I'll surely update with any new info. Thanks again. :thumb:

I should also add that the grammodes is certainly living up to it's reputation as the "mini dovii". He bit the tail clean off of the smallest Salvini (1 1/2") in the african tank. It would seem to be just pure spite as he didn't try to eat the sal. Going in with the big guys should fix his wagon. 

More soon when I find out about these doviis. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## roman_back

what are the actual dimensions of your new tank terd?


----------



## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> what are the actual dimensions of your new tank terd?


8' long x 3' wide x 25" tall with two overflow boxes built in. The overflow boxes each have two holes, one for drain and one for return (2 drains and 2 returns total). The back piece and the overflow boxes are black acrylic. The top is totally closed in with two large removeable lids about 2'x2' square each.


----------



## terd ferguson

The doviis didn't come in with today's shipment. I'll let you guys know as soon as I know. I picked up the paint today for the room. I'm taping up trim now getting ready to paint. My plan is still to have the new tank filled by the end of the weekend. I'll update and post pics when there's something to show. 8)

Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


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## crotalusfan

I can't wait!!! opcorn: =D>


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## Big Vine

Sounds like a heck of a plan with all those Parachromis, Terd.

Best of luck with it---I hope it works!
BV


----------



## terd ferguson

crotalusfan said:


> I can't wait!!! opcorn: =D>


Me niether. The painting is almost finished. 



Big Vine said:


> Sounds like a heck of a plan with all those Parachromis, Terd.
> 
> Best of luck with it---I hope it works!
> BV


Thanks. I'm still working out the finer details.


----------



## terd ferguson

The painting is finished. Work will begin in earnest tomorrow morning on washing all that sand and setting up and filling the tank. :thumb:

Thanks again for looking.


----------



## ArcticCatRider

Haha, Good luck with the sand.
Sounds like you'll have a fun few hours :lol: 
How you doin it? the old bucket?

Well, We're so ready to see that tank, hope all goes right for ya! :thumb: opcorn:


----------



## terd ferguson

ArcticCatRider said:


> Haha, Good luck with the sand.
> Sounds like you'll have a fun few hours :lol:
> How you doin it? the old bucket?
> 
> Well, We're so ready to see that tank, hope all goes right for ya! :thumb: opcorn:


I just got done washing the sand. You were right, I did it with the old bucket. It took four hours start to finish. I'm too tired to put it in the tank tonight. I'll do that first thing in the morning. After that comes water, then equipment, and then fishes. 

Thanks for the well wishes. Look for photos as soon as the fish are in it. Now it's time for a good old fashioned glass bottle Sun Drop after all that work. If you don't live in the South, you probably don't know what that is. You should. :thumb:


----------



## ashilli48

Apprently I'm too far south to have had one. Born in Atlanta now reside in Tampa.

Looking forward to the pics. How many pounds of sand again?


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## terd ferguson

ashilli48 said:


> Apprently I'm too far south to have had one. Born in Atlanta now reside in Tampa.
> 
> Looking forward to the pics. How many pounds of sand again?


Sun Drop is mostly NC, SC, and GA. Pure can sugar in the glass bottles, no high fructose corn syrup.


----------



## terd ferguson

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Check this out.










I just got done catching all the fish and moving them. I've been working on this since lunch time. I've still got a little more to do as far as decorations. It's still a little cloudy, I can't wait until it clears up. More pictures soon. 

A tremendous amount of blood was shed during this set up. I got it all on camera. Let me get them uploaded. Warning: it's not for the squeamish. opcorn:


----------



## terd ferguson

Guess what I found in the bottom of my sump when I cleaned it out to move it?










This is an inch and a half jaguar. Judging by it's size, it has to be from Tiny's one and only spawn. I've got a part of Tiny to live on after all. I am so glad. I still can't believe it. 8)

Now for the carnage and bloodshed.

*WARNING: GRAPHIC PHOTOS, NOT FOR THE SQUEAMISH!*

I stuck myself pretty good while cutting some Spa Flex. I nicked a vein, it was spurting out with each heartbeat. Blood went everywhere. Don't worry, it's worse than it looks. I probably should've gone to get stitches, but I was past the point of no return with setting this tank up. I had to continue.

Four good spurts before I could get some pressure on it.


















Notice the Band Aid already there. You would think I would've learned the first time. Don't rush with a sharp knife. It doesn't look like much, but I hit the bone.


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## terd ferguson

The first night with the new tank up and running has gone great. The cloudiness is slowly clearing up. I haven't had any major issues so far. On the old tank, I had to dial back my pump with the ball valve. On the new tank, I have to dial back the drains and run the pump full blast (1,506 gph minus head loss). I am flowing nearly twice the water now. It took me a while, but I finally got the drains and returns equalized.

The black sand looks great and the fishes' colors are already looking good even after being a little stressed from the move. The big RT is gone now. The smaller RT is in a QT tank where I'm hoping to finally put an end to her HITH. I added salt and plan on changing her water daily which will be much easier in the smaller tank. I've yet to add the female mota, but I will get her in there later today. I just spent so long catching the others and setting up, I really didn't feel like doing anything else, lol. It ended up taking a lot longer than I thought, especially after I cut myself and could only use one hand. 

I had a small problem when moving one of the TSN's. The spine of one of her pectoral fins got stuck in the net and it took me a good half hour to get her free. She seems to be fine now though her fin is a little torn. No one else had any problems moving although it did take a while to catch them all. They can be pretty smart when trying to avoid being netted.

All 14 Convicts survived their first night. It's funny, in a small tank, they got along great. In this giant tank, all they do is chase each other around and flare gills. Everyone else is still getting accustomed to their new surroundings. No one has really claimed a territory yet. It'll help when I finish adding all the rocks and the rest of the wood today.

I'll get some more and better pics up tonight. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


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## Blu-ray

Congrats on the new tank, terd, thats great. love the 3' width of it :drooling: 
waiting for new pics!

that baby Jag in the sump, thats wonderful hes survived and grown up there! I had seen oscar fry in my sump but they would die if I wasn't moving them to the tank, cuz my sump is pretty small. and good tinys left a son for you!

ps: glad you didn't cut off your finger :lol:


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## remarkosmoc

That is awesome that a fry survived in the sump =D>


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## terd ferguson

Blu-ray said:


> Congrats on the new tank, terd, thats great. love the 3' width of it :drooling:
> waiting for new pics!
> 
> that baby Jag in the sump, thats wonderful hes survived and grown up there! I had seen oscar fry in my sump but they would die if I wasn't moving them to the tank, cuz my sump is pretty small. and good tinys left a son for you!
> 
> ps: glad you didn't cut off your finger :lol:


Thanks alot. I'm super happy about the jag, I hope he turns out to be male.



tannable75 said:


> That is awesome that a fry survived in the sump


When I saw him in there, I couldn't believe my eyes. I'll call him Tiny Junior if he turns out to be male.


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## terd ferguson

The tank has gotten clearer and I've added some more wood and some rocks. I still have to organize all my plugs and mount the powerstrips to the stand so my cats and/or dog can't step on them and turn them off (which happened today). Otherwise, I'm pretty much finished.Well, except for the doors for the stand. I have to order those online and then stain them to match.

I moved the grammodes and the mota into the big tank today. So far so good with them. The grammodes is quickly becoming my favorite. He did, however, murder another tiny Salvini today before I moved him. This time, he bit the head and tail off leaving the middle. I guess they didn't get the message the first time, lol. But, no problems so far in the big tank.

The female mota has really come out of her shell since moving into the big tank. She used to hid whenever I would come up to her in the african tank. She would always be peeking around the corner of some driftwood or her strawberry pot to see if I was still watching and if I was, she'd dart back behind it. Now, she just cruises around. It's nice to see her out and about.

The convicts have started to make homes and re-pair up. The male loiselli and male freddy are chasing each other around and the female loiselli acts like she's trying to choose between the two. She seems to be leaning towards going back to the male freddy that she last spawned with twice.

Somehow, like magic, the drains and returns have equalized with both fully open. It may have something to do with making small adjustments in the water level in the tank and in the sump. But, I don't really know. I just know I'm flowing as much water as is possible with my plumbing and pump, which is good.

All in all, everyone seems to be enjoying exploring their new home. I haven't had any issues besides almost cutting off my thumb, lol.  I'll try to take some more pics tonight when it gets dark.


----------



## terd ferguson

I took a couple of pictures earlier. I still need to add some rocks (lazy) and aother nice piece of wood (waiting on silicone to cover the screw). You can click on the images for a larger version. Check 'em out and let me know what you think. 

Male grammodes...









Female motaguense...









Again...









Left side...









Tank shot...


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## remarkosmoc

Lookin good. Hows the hand?


----------



## roman_back

I SAY BRING ON THE DOVI!!!! :dancing: looks freakin awesome!!!! i too have the black sand but mine is the actuall tahitian moon sand. the fish love it and their colors look amazing too. i also have attinic lights on mine as well, it makes for a good color booster!! good luck with the hand, and as far as an update wit my tank......i did a real thourough cleanout of it.. took out all decor and plants ect and sifted the sand. i lost one of my clown loaches to the salvini. :x that has been the first time i have seen my fish act the way they did, but i did remove thier hiding spots ect, so for me my loss count is 1. good luck and it looks great.. happy fish keeping!!


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## terd ferguson

tannable75 said:


> Lookin good. Hows the hand?


Thanks, the hand is fine. Super glue works wonders. 



roman_back said:


> I SAY BRING ON THE DOVI!!!! looks freakin awesome!!!! i too have the black sand but mine is the actuall tahitian moon sand. the fish love it and their colors look amazing too. i also have attinic lights on mine as well, it makes for a good color booster!! good luck with the hand, and as far as an update wit my tank......i did a real thourough cleanout of it.. took out all decor and plants ect and sifted the sand. i lost one of my clown loaches to the salvini. that has been the first time i have seen my fish act the way they did, but i did remove thier hiding spots ect, so for me my loss count is 1. good luck and it looks great.. happy fish keeping!!


Thanks for the kind words. Sorry about your loach. As for the dovii, I'm waiting on the shop to get some.


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## illy-d

Looks great! :thumb: =D>


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## stuckinthemiddle

Dude, That tank is ginormous.....it makes your fish look tiny! More pics please!!


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## Toby_H

Looks awesome Kevin... I'm really looking forward to seeing it in person Thurs. I hope you have room for another male attitude!


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## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> Looks great! :thumb: =D>


Thanks.



stuckinthemiddle said:


> Dude, That tank is ginormous.....it makes your fish look tiny! More pics please!!


I know. I'll try to get some more pics soon. :thumb:



Toby_H said:


> Looks awesome Kevin... I'm really looking forward to seeing it in person Thurs. I hope you have room for another male attitude!


Thanks. I'm looking forward to seeing that mota in person. Can't wait.


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## Big Vine

Wow, man...everything looks fantastic! 8) 
Extra bonus points for nearly chopping your thumb off. opcorn: 
BV :lol:


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## terd ferguson

Big Vine said:


> Wow, man...everything looks fantastic! 8)
> Extra bonus points for nearly chopping your thumb off. opcorn:
> BV :lol:


Thanks. 

The 190g tank and stand is up for sale if anyone local is interested. Please don't post in this thread about it, PM me for more info.


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## roman_back

quick update.... my tank is now WWIII!!! :x ever since the tank cleaning sunday.. and the sal's mis-hap with the clown loach.... he has gone nuts.. the sal is picking fights with the little red terror and my firemouth. all three are just flareing gills and locking up... this is soooo not good!!! im at a loss.. i went home to eat lunch and the old lady was tellin me they was actin up.. so i sat and ate lunch in front of the tank today and it appears my salvini has gone nuts! i really expected this behavior out of my dovi first.. and hes actually the more reserved one. i dunno what to do... i guess im gonna have to clear the africans out of the 55 sooner than i thought! any advice and or input would help, im going tonight after work and getting some feeders maybe that will calm them down a bit.


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## Mudfrog

Killer new tank! I'm insanely jealous


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## Toby_H

roman_back said:


> quick update.... my tank is now WWIII!!! :x ever since the tank cleaning sunday.. and the sal's mis-hap with the clown loach.... he has gone nuts.. the sal is picking fights with the little red terror and my firemouth. all three are just flareing gills and locking up... this is soooo not good!!! im at a loss.. i went home to eat lunch and the old lady was tellin me they was actin up.. so i sat and ate lunch in front of the tank today and it appears my salvini has gone nuts! i really expected this behavior out of my dovi first.. and hes actually the more reserved one. i dunno what to do... i guess im gonna have to clear the africans out of the 55 sooner than i thought! any advice and or input would help, im going tonight after work and getting some feeders maybe that will calm them down a bit.


The delicate balance of an overstocked tank is easy to tip overâ€¦ be grateful it works while it works and be quick to adjust when it doesnâ€™tâ€¦ Thatâ€™s the breaks of an overstocked tankâ€¦

Best of luckâ€¦


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## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> quick update.... my tank is now WWIII!!! :x ever since the tank cleaning sunday.. and the sal's mis-hap with the clown loach.... he has gone nuts.. the sal is picking fights with the little red terror and my firemouth. all three are just flareing gills and locking up... this is soooo not good!!! im at a loss.. i went home to eat lunch and the old lady was tellin me they was actin up.. so i sat and ate lunch in front of the tank today and it appears my salvini has gone nuts! i really expected this behavior out of my dovi first.. and hes actually the more reserved one. i dunno what to do... i guess im gonna have to clear the africans out of the 55 sooner than i thought! any advice and or input would help, im going tonight after work and getting some feeders maybe that will calm them down a bit.





Toby_H said:


> The delicate balance of an overstocked tank is easy to tip overâ€¦ be grateful it works while it works and be quick to adjust when it doesnâ€™tâ€¦ Thatâ€™s the breaks of an overstocked tankâ€¦
> 
> Best of luckâ€¦


Toby is right. It's always a gamble with these cichlids when overstocked. But, it doesn't even have to be overstocked for what happened in your tank to take place. All you need is two fishes who decide they no longer want to play nice. I try not to do anything to upset the balance, like moving around decorations. This may upset the fish and cause them to act out as yours have. That's one of the reasons I was worried about moving all my fishes to a totally different enviornment than they were used to. It's also part of the reason I decided to throw the Convicts in the new tank, as a sort of distraction from all the new surroundings. Mineis working great so far, knock on wood. Good luck to you, roman_back. Now you sal has a taste for blood. 



Mudfrog said:


> Killer new tank! I'm insanely jealous


Thanks. :thumb:


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## roman_back

well i got the feeders last night and that spread the aggression out.. i woke this morning to a small red terror with some fins niped off. other than that all seems normal this morning.. ill post more when i go home for lunch. and for the record... ill never remove all the decor and plants from the tank again... ill just have to deal with it taking longer and being more difficult to clean the tank than to loose another fish! like you have said before.. this is sort of uncharted territory and many people have done it but not many have it documented.. the reason for me telling my findings along with yours to help educate a bit or even kill the curiosity if you will. thanks for reading and posting... this is by far one of the best threads *** read and posted in, in a long time..! :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

I'm glad it's getting better for you. And thanks for sharing. That's what this thread is all about, information that can help others. Good luck and let us know how it goes. Thanks again. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

Ok, so I've got acouple of new items to report. First, Toby_H worked out our trade today. He brought me the male Parachromis motaguense and took home a really nice Salvini and another Salvini with potential. Check out these shots and notice the hints of blue.




























And with the female who has been following him around shortly after adding him.


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## terd ferguson

Also, it seems as if Albie, the big Oscar is a female. She is digging a nest and has dropped a tube. She has never ever dug in the sand before. I guess the other Tiger Oscar is male. I'mnot sure with Oscars. But, I'll find out if there ends up being fretilized eggs. 










Also a big thanks to Toby for the awesome motaguense. I hope those Salvinis turn out nice for you. I can't wait to get the chance to come and check out your new fish room. Thanks again. :thumb:


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## roman_back

hey terd... this is just plainly an opinion.. and i dont mean one thing by this ok?.. but with you having such a predatory tank why not loose the big and messy oscars and that would make room for a dovi, and i would about guarentee your tank would be much cleaner!! lol.. just a suggestion and its your tank and your fish.. and the tank and fish both are looking wonderful!


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## Toby_H

I saw this tank in person yesterday and **** was I impressed. You did a great job putting it together Kevin. I canâ€™t wait to see it with the finishing touches put on it (doors, molding, etc) when I come to pick up the GT 

I was there when the Oscar first started digging and it was the same as when my big Lutino Oscar was nesting/spawning. I have had female Os nest & lay eggs with no male or with other female Os. So no guarantees on fry but she is definitely nesting and definitely had a dropped tube.

Lastly, Iâ€™m really glad the Mota ended up in your tank. His colors popped as soon as he entered the tank and he kept them even when meeting the bigger Jags. Iâ€™ve never seen so much blue in him as I did in your tank.


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## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> hey terd... this is just plainly an opinion.. and i dont mean one thing by this ok?.. but with you having such a predatory tank why not loose the big and messy oscars and that would make room for a dovi, and i would about guarentee your tank would be much cleaner!! lol.. just a suggestion and its your tank and your fish.. and the tank and fish both are looking wonderful!


There's no way I could ever, EVER get rid of the Oscars. Albie is my wife's absolute favorite fish. She's the one who picked her out. She says she'd take a hammer to the tank before I let Albie go.  Besides, Albie's got an awesome personality. She comes up to the tank and wags her tail like a dog whenever I come up to the tank. When Tiny got hurt, Albie tried to nudge him to get him upright and swimming. She did this from time to time for four weeks. When the others would come around Tiny as he was laying on the bottom, Albie would keep them from bothering Tiny. Sometimes a weak fish will become a target for aggression, especially when it's a former "boss" like Tiny was. Albie personally kept that from happening for the four weeks I tried to heal Tiny. And in doing so, it's possible she prevented an aggressive catstrophy. Once something like that starts, it's hard to stop.

I still can't get used to saying "she" when talking about Albie. I had just always assumed she was male for no particular reason. But, along with being my wife's favorite, Albie is definately one of my favorites too. She has such nice colors, size, and personality. Messiness aside, I think my tank would be worse off without Albie. And Albie likes having an Oscar buddy, so I can't really get rid of the other one either. I used to have another big Tiger Oscar a long time ago that ended up jumping out and later died. Albie moped around until I went out and got her another buddy.

Basically, I'm not worried about any of the fishes in there now getting along with a dovii. They have all proved that they can tolerate each other even in close quarters. It would be the dovii's tolerance or intolerance of the current inhabitants that gives me pause. And I'm not really worried about the messiness either. Whatever extra cleaning/waterchanges I have to do are worth it for being able to have such a cool fish. But I appreciate the suggestion. :thumb:


----------



## dwarfpike

The new tank looks 100 times better than the old one, allowing them to spread out more. The old tank never looked right to me, not becuase I thought you were courting a bloodbath but becuase in nature you just wouldn't see that many apex predators in that close poximity. I try to make my tanks look like, if you put on a snokel and mask, you'd see the same fish and relationships you'd see in the wild.

But everyone has differant tastes and wants differant things from their fish and tanks. No one I think can argue how beautiful that new male mota is though.


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## terd ferguson

Toby_H said:


> I saw this tank in person yesterday and darn was I impressed. You did a great job putting it together Kevin. I canâ€™t wait to see it with the finishing touches put on it (doors, molding, etc) when I come to pick up the GT
> 
> I was there when the Oscar first started digging and it was the same as when my big Lutino Oscar was nesting/spawning. I have had female Os nest & lay eggs with no male or with other female Os. So no guarantees on fry but she is definitely nesting and definitely had a dropped tube.
> 
> Lastly, Iâ€™m really glad the Mota ended up in your tank. His colors popped as soon as he entered the tank and he kept them even when meeting the bigger Jags. Iâ€™ve never seen so much blue in him as I did in your tank.


I appreciate you bringing me the mota Toby. He is turning out to be a great fit so far. I was a little apprehensive when you told me how much of an atitude he had. But he seems to like his new home. The female is pretty much still following him around wherever he goes. This is promising as it's the first step in becoming a pair. The next step is usually some kind of bonding behavior where the male and female will work together to do something like shoo another fish away from their future spawning site or work together to clean up a site for their house/future spawning site. Once that happens, it's usually not too long before eggs show up, within a month or two anyway. But, the swimming together so soon after their introduction is definately a good indication of their compatibility.

Toby, I'm glad you got the chance to check out my set up firsthand. It's hard sometimes to share the actual awesomeness of all those big killers together on the interwebz. Seeing the interaction in person just cannot be conveyed through pictures or even video. To see them investigate and then eventually accept a new tankmate is so cool. Also too cool is to see the very beginnings of the pairing up and spawning. Seeing the two motas together for the first time, it's like they belong together and always have been together. And now with Albie acting like she's going to lay eggs, it just keeps getting better. I feel so lucky everytime I sit and watch this tank. I wish I could have all you guys over to check it out. 

As to the GT's, I'm sure we can work something out. For everyone besides Toby(we discussed this at length yesterday), the GT's are _not aggressive enough_. This is strictly a feeding issue. These two GT's are very meek and it's like they're scared of their own shadow. This is not because of any overt acts of aggression directed towards them by tankmates, it's just their personalities. But because of this, they have trouble competing for food and grow slowly as a result. They are hesitant to go to the top with everyone else at feeding time because of this meekness. So, while I've been able to keep them in a community setting with other larger and more aggressive fishes, they may not be the best fit keeping the GT's' best interest in mind.

Don't get me wrong, it's not like they're neglected. They are just not able to live up to their maximum true potential because of their personalities. And as much as I like them (because they *are* interesting and beautiful), I'd rather see them thrive in Toby's tank than get by in mine.

Thanks again Toby for the awesome fish. I have a good feeling he's going to a valuable addition (he is already  ). The doviis still didn't come. Ash said to call back Monday when they order again. I can't wait to check out that fish room of yours. Got anymore Parachromis? I still need a 100% positive ID freddy.


----------



## terd ferguson

dwarfpike said:


> The new tank looks 100 times better than the old one, allowing them to spread out more. The old tank never looked right to me, not becuase I thought you were courting a bloodbath but becuase in nature you just wouldn't see that many apex predators in that close poximity. I try to make my tanks look like, if you put on a snokel and mask, you'd see the same fish and relationships you'd see in the wild.
> 
> But everyone has differant tastes and wants differant things from their fish and tanks. No one I think can argue how beautiful that new male mota is though.


I agree 100%. I appreciate the compliments too. The old tank could've been a lot better with a longer length and shorter height. Like 6' long x 2' wide x 2' tall vs. 5' long x 2' wide x 30"tall. But, I made the best out of what I had. This new tank, however, is about as good as it gets for a proper enviornment for these guys (well maybe besides TheFishGuy's 14 footer, lol). They don't miss the 30" depth and they sure seem to appreciate the extra width and length.

I get what you're saying about the snorkel bit. I wish I had the talents of someone like Amano to create such works of art. It's just hard for me to go all out because of the difficulty in keeping plants anchored. Now that I'm 100% set up and running, I may try to anchor some plants to rocks and wood. My only problem with that is I don't want to see any rubber bands or fishing line. I'd like the plants to look as natural as possible (black sand isn't exactly natural, lol) and not obviously tied to something. I absolutely love the true biotope look and have the utmost respect for those that are able to go to such lengths to do it right. But, I'll never be that guy, I'm a little too lazy.  I also love what I call "the natural look" which can mean many things to different people. But, to me, it's fish, wood, rocks _and_ plants.

Nealry all of my time and energy has been tied up in planning and getting this new tank set up for the last few months. Now that I'm a little more free, I can start to devote some of that time and energy to start fine tuning the aquascaping.

Thanks again for looking and the kind words. :thumb:


----------



## dwarfpike

I use cotton thread, brown when tying anubias or java fern to driftwood, and grey (or other matching colors) when doing the same to rocks. Much easier on the eye than rubberbands or zip ties, and after a while they disolve, but are harmless to the fish when they do so. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

dwarfpike said:


> I use cotton thread, brown when tying anubias or java fern to driftwood, and grey (or other matching colors) when doing the same to rocks. Much easier on the eye than rubberbands or zip ties, and after a while they disolve, but are harmless to the fish when they do so. :thumb:


Since you have some experience with this, maybe you can help. I've tried fishing line before with plants to wood and it eventually dissolves and the plants eventually come unanchored. Let me in on your secrets to keeping them anchored once whatever is used to anchor them dissolves. Also, I don't have a large selection of plants around here and I'm very far from a plant expert. I really only have experience with anubias and mosses in my african tank. Any tips as to plants that will do well with average lighting and may be readily available (common) is also appreciated.

Thanks again for the help. :thumb:


----------



## roman_back

I feel so lucky everytime I sit and watch this tank. I wish I could have all you guys over to check it out. 

As to the GT's, I'm sure we can work something out. For everyone besides Toby(we discussed this at length yesterday), the GT's are _not aggressive enough_. This is strictly a feeding issue. These two GT's are very meek and it's like they're scared of their own shadow. This is not because of any overt acts of aggression directed towards them by tankmates, it's just their personalities. But because of this, they have trouble competing for food and grow slowly as a result. They are hesitant to go to the top with everyone else at feeding time because of this meekness. So, while I've been able to keep them in a community setting with other larger and more aggressive fishes, they may not be the best fit keeping the GT's' best interest in mind.

Don't get me wrong, it's not like they're neglected. They are just not able to live up to their maximum true potential because of their personalities. And as much as I like them (because they *are* interesting and beautiful), I'd rather see them thrive in Toby's tank than get by in mine.

Thanks again Toby for the awesome fish. I have a good feeling he's going to a valuable addition (he is already  ). The doviis still didn't come. Ash said to call back Monday when they order again. I can't wait to check out that fish room of yours. Got anymore Parachromis? I still need a 100% positive ID freddy. [/quote]

i wish i could come see it.. would be an amazing site.. and as i have said before.. my firemouth is like your green terror.. he isnt being picked on but he isnt agressive enough when it comes feeding time to get the food he needs and or wants.. the reason why i want to clear out my 55 and put the firemouth, cons and the jack dempsey over there and have the more laid back agresssive ones in the 55. and then that would leave the dovi, sal, feste, and the myan in the 140.. then i would space the aggession out and give a bit more breathing room.


----------



## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> i wish i could come see it.. would be an amazing site.. and as i have said before.. my firemouth is like your green terror.. he isnt being picked on but he isnt agressive enough when it comes feeding time to get the food he needs and or wants.. the reason why i want to clear out my 55 and put the firemouth, cons and the jack dempsey over there and have the more laid back agresssive ones in the 55. and then that would leave the dovi, sal, feste, and the myan in the 140.. then i would space the aggession out and give a bit more breathing room.


Whatever you decide to do, watch closely after any moves. That's probably the most vulnerable time for violence. When these fishes get stressed, they can lash out as you saw. Just be prepared for any eventuality. Good luck and let us know how it goes. :thumb:


----------



## ArcticCatRider

Man, I love that new tank! it looks amazing!!! And especially the fish, maybe ifI vacation next year in North Carolina, I'll just come see our tank. Lol :lol: jk
But I like it, more pics soon?
I'm about to change the gravel over to PFS in my 29 gal. this weekend, so I'll have some pics up 1 day here soon.


----------



## terd ferguson

ArcticCatRider said:


> Man, I love that new tank! it looks amazing!!! And especially the fish, maybe ifI vacation next year in North Carolina, I'll just come see our tank. Lol :lol: jk
> But I like it, more pics soon?
> I'm about to change the gravel over to PFS in my 29 gal. this weekend, so I'll have some pics up 1 day here soon.


Thanks. I'll get some more pics up soon. I actually like photographing this tank. It's so easy. The other tank was a lot harder to photograph due to all the light that would reflect off of the white sand. I look forward to seeing your pics. :thumb:

And NC is a beautiful place to vacation. We've got it all, from the beach to the mountains and just about everything in between. Well, except desert, but who wants to visit a desert anyway? :lol:


----------



## terd ferguson

My sister-in-law has a tank that is literally overgrown so she brought me a couple of plants. It's just a couple of sword type plants and some java moss. But what a difference it makes. I love the contrast of the black and green. What do you guys think?


----------



## dwarfpike

The black sand deffinately makes the green of those plants snap!! :thumb:

As for the cotten thread, I never had trouble getting them to sink into soft driftwood before the cotton thread disolved. Hard rocks like granite I would retie after about two months, it might take two or three times before the anubias roots took hold.


----------



## terd ferguson

dwarfpike said:


> The black sand deffinately makes the green of those plants snap!! :thumb:
> 
> As for the cotten thread, I never had trouble getting them to sink into soft driftwood before the cotton thread disolved. Hard rocks like granite I would retie after about two months, it might take two or three times before the anubias roots took hold.


Thanks. I tied the swords to round stones with fishing line and semi-buried them in the sand. The java moss is tied to the wood with the same fishing line. I just hope the fishes don't tear them up. I love the look.


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## terd ferguson

Ok, one more plant and two more small pieces of wood. I also removed the small clay pots as the Convicts now have some more hiding spots thanks to the plants and wood. I'm pretty happy with it now. I've still got some small stones to scatter around the front, but other than that, I'm pretty satisfied. Let me know what you guys think. Click on the images for a larger version. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:










Right side...


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## ArcticCatRider

Got the sand in the tank!!!
Nevermind the sock, and cups :lol: they're holding some gravel, until more bacteria are established on the sand, tell me what y'all think! (The pics are for you Terd, said I'd take some.) :wink:


----------



## terd ferguson

It looks good. Nice cons too, I love Convicts. Such a big atitude in such a little package. 

What's under the rocks on the right?


----------



## ArcticCatRider

Thanks, I'm gonna get some shots of my tank, convicts and all,then post it later. My male is beautiful when he holds his color, then the female, she is ahhmazing. :wink: 
Under the rocks was my pleco, 9.6 inches long  
And I think my JD is under there too. Right now this tank is growin out fish for my 150!


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## illy-d

Hey Terd - Love the plants! As mentioned previously by another poster the Anubias make take a little longer to bond with very hard rocks like granite - but it will get there eventually...

The best medium for attaching plants is wood IMO - the roots are able to get a hold very quickly and once attached they are there for good!

I did notice in your picture of Albie that her pectoral fin seems kind of chewed on and tattered - it doesn't look infected though which is good... Any idea what it's from? Normally when fish are bullied it's the tail fin that gets munched on first - and hers appears to be in good shape...


----------



## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> Hey Terd - Love the plants! As mentioned previously by another poster the Anubias make take a little longer to bond with very hard rocks like granite - but it will get there eventually...
> 
> The best medium for attaching plants is wood IMO - the roots are able to get a hold very quickly and once attached they are there for good!
> 
> I did notice in your picture of Albie that her pectoral fin seems kind of chewed on and tattered - it doesn't look infected though which is good... Any idea what it's from? Normally when fish are bullied it's the tail fin that gets munched on first - and hers appears to be in good shape...


Thanks for the planting tips. As to Albie's pectorals, I don't know. My best guess is that she's been digging a lot lately in pre-spawning behavior. Maybe that's what did it. And you're right, her tail fin is fine. I'll try and get a close up tonight. Thanks again. :thumb:


----------



## roman_back

i agree with you.. the greens on the black sand pop! almost wish my tank and stand was black instead of the brown..


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## roman_back

i have a sword over on the right.. and i had some java moss on the large rock in the center.. it never took hold and really made a mess of my tank.. also was all inside my fx5.. i got rid of it before it tore my filter up...i have a piece of brazilian drift wood and a piece of african spider in my tank as well.. but im suprized your sand has stayed so even, my myan loves to dig and as you see in the center of my tank its all humped up in the middle.. kinda makes me upset in a way... it makes my tank look messy.. but hey they live in it.. so i just let them do thier thing! terd the tank is looking good.. and on a side note.. i won a filter and protien skimmer in a raffel at the lfs today.. i think with the $700 filter skimmer combo out the way im gonna attemt salt.. so now im in search of a large tank.. then i can put my c/a's in a larger one and make my 140 salt!! the lfs said i should get the larger tank for the salt and i told them no way!! im to partial to my cichlids and there is no other fish that could replace them lol!


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## terd ferguson

Looking good roman. I've never had a lot of luck with java moss either. I hope it stays down this time. As to the sand, the big jag pair is starting to dig in the back right corner. The rest of the sand is staying pretty flat. Good luck with the reefer setup. I like them but they always seem like a black hole for money. At least you got a good start with the frre equipment. :thumb:

I also found a big Convict today. He's a monster male at 6" with long trailing fins. I went to take pics as I put him in, but the battery was dead. It's charging now so look for some new pics of everyone soon. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

Alright, here's some fresh pics. I forgot to disconnect the bubbles from the powerheads. So, the pics aren't as good as they could be. Sometimes I get lucky, not this time, lol.  Even if some are out of focus a little, there's some good color representation. You can click on the images for a larger version.

First up is that new monster Convict. This guy is every bit of 6 1/2". Check out his trailers, they go an inch past his tail fin.









Next up is the mota pair. These are my favorite to photograph because of the beautiful color contrast between the two. They hardly ever leave each other's side.









Again.









Female loiselli.









Male loiselli.


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## terd ferguson

Just a couple more. 

Male freddy.









Albie (al "she" now, lol).









Closeup. Danger lurks here.









And finally, Tiny jr., a.k.a. T.J., a.k.a. J.R. Ewing.









Thanks again for looking. I promise next time to get rid of the bubbles.  :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

Shorty gets the award for the first to drop eggs in the new tank. It's only been nine days since the fishes were transfered. I think that's a pretty good indication that they are getting settled in. They have all pretty much settled in to the area each pair or individual wants as their territory.

The Oscars had originally wanted the spot behind the smaller strawberry pot on the right. But, Shorty and Teeny felt this was a little to close to their spot in that pot. They kept shooing the Oscars away from behind the pot until they finally got the message and moved left a little.

The motas have chosen the middle of the tank in the back. The grammodes is not far away, in some of the driftwood just in front of the motas. The motas, by the way, are very tolerant (for now) for others being close to their house. The female loiselli seems to have switched back to the male loiselli (from the male freddy). They have taken the larger strawberry pot on the left. The male freddy likes to hang out in the middle sword near the motas.

The GT's seem to like to hang out on the left between the pot and the tank. The convicts pretty much call home wherever they can get away from the TSN's. Most are dug in in the bottoms of pieces of driftwood or dug in under rocks. Well, all except for the new large one. He is clearly not intimidated by the TSN's at all and even chased them off at one point earlier today.

While I'm at it, the LFS still hasn't gotten their shipment of doviis yet. But they will sooner or later. This is one of the best LFS's in the area and they only buy quality (and hence, only sell quality). The main guy knows I'm waiting, he's just trying to get the best for me that he can. Sometimes this can take a while.

Thanks again for looking. I'll update again when there's more news with this latest spawn. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

The jag eggs are hatching. 8)


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## Big Vine

terd ferguson said:


> Next up is the mota pair. These are my favorite to photograph because of the beautiful color contrast between the two. They hardly ever leave each other's side.


I agree...they look gorgeous together like that! 8)

Good luck with them new jag wigglers!  
BV


----------



## terd ferguson

Big Vine said:


> terd ferguson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Next up is the mota pair. These are my favorite to photograph because of the beautiful color contrast between the two. They hardly ever leave each other's side.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree...they look gorgeous together like that! 8)
> 
> Good luck with them new jag wigglers!
> BV
Click to expand...

Thanks. There were less eggs than usual this time. This of course means less fry this time around. They should be free swimming in another couple of days.

Also, if any of you guys are members at MFK, there's a guy there that picked up a 13" dovii that had been raised in a community setting since the size of 2". A different guy had to get rid of all his tanks and trade the dovii into an LFS where the MFK member traded for him. Long story short, this is one of the most laid back dovii in existance and tolerates tankmates extremely well. This is the kind of personality I'm looking to add with a dovii. Go to MFK, if you're a member there, and search through threads created by member "Balton777" and check them out. It's fascinating. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

All of the jag fry are gone as far as I can tell. The female mota now has dropped her tube. It shouldn't be too much longer before she's dropping eggs. I figured it wasonly a matter of time.


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## roman_back

i swear my dovi is really calm as well, *** had him since it was about 1in long and hes almost 5-6. he is prob the least agressive fish i have in my tank, my firemouth has more of a mean streak in him than the dovi does.


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## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> i swear my dovi is really calm as well, I've had him since it was about 1in long and hes almost 5-6. he is prob the least agressive fish i have in my tank, my firemouth has more of a mean streak in him than the dovi does.


I've heard quite a few people say this until their dovii hits the 8" or so mark and then the killing spree begins. I'm not saying yours will, but it's best to keep a close eye on them when they start getting around that size. :thumb:

Also, I've got some news to report. The motas have laid eggs. This female is much more proactive in keeping others away from the eggs. She also likes a little more protected space around her egg site than the jags or loisellis. The male mota also has received an injury to his eye. Since I didn't see it happen, I can't say for sure who's responsible, but my theory is it was probably the female during the mating process. It's not serious and I'm sure it'll heal up just fine. I haven't observed any behavior that would cause concern other than the injury. The eggs caught me totally off guard. They came very quickly after her tube became visible. With my others, it was a month or two before eggs showed up once the breeding tube dropped. This was just a matter of days. Also, she didn't lay down nearly as many eggs as the jags or the loisellis, but this is also her very first try.

I'll update as new news becomes available. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


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## roman_back

well terd seems to be since the new tank build is complete the thread is winding down a bit lol... i figured i would post up.. cant let this thread go!!! but anywho... on a side note... my salvini has still sustained his "temper" he acts almost bi-polar sometimes.. ever since his incident involving him eating my clown loach he has "not been himself" so to say. him and the smaller of the red terrors have their gill flareing sessions and i woke this morning to find the smaller feste with some tail fins beat up pretty bad... sooo im assuming it was ol' sal again lol. but other than that the tank is fine.. the pair of cons are digging and her tube is dropped.. the cons nest is next to my 4-line pictus cat's den... so the cons and the cat are at it a bit... so far thats about all i got! untill next post... happy fishkeeping!


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## roman_back

here is a photo of the two.. having a dissagreement










and this one is a good one.. i walked up to the tank with the camera and he got defensive.. he bowed up in half like this picture and started flaring his gills and whipping his tail at me.. was hilarious!! :lol:


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## terd ferguson

I'm glad to hear things are going well for you roman. I haven't updated much lately as I've been pretty busy. The Chevy needed a carb rebuild and school has started back up. I've got two daughters, so my schedule gets a bit hectic until everyone settles into their new routine.

With that said, the motas' eggs hatched. The female moved the fry somewhere out of sight. I assume they have disappeared, but I don't know for sure. They would be free swimming by now and I'm sure I'd see some if they were still around. The female is still very protective of her nest though. There's not really anything else newsworthy to report. Everything is still going just fine. I'm still waiting for that elusive shipment of dovii from the LFS. That's about it for now.


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## terd ferguson

Well, the motas sure had me fooled. I assumed their fry had been eaten, but I was wrong. They were just hiding them well. I discovered them today out on a feeding expedition. I figured something must have been up since they were still very protective over their nest. It doesn't look like it in the photos, but I estimate about 300 fry swimming.

Mom and dad with fry cloud...









Mom and babies...









Thanks for looking. :thumb:


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## Toby_H

I thought he would be eager to spawn... he spent three months begging a female Slavini to come into his cave but she hated him... I'm glad he's finally found a girl that loves him... or is at least willing to, well ya know


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## terd ferguson

Toby_H said:


> I thought he would be eager to spawn... he spent three months begging a female Slavini to come into his cave but she hated him... I'm glad he's finally found a girl that loves him... or is at least willing to, well ya know


She almost put his eye out when they were pre-spawning/spawning. So, I don't know how happy he is about that.  But, he has made some beautiful babies and is super cool. Thanks again for bringing him. How's that salvini coming along?


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## terd ferguson

The mota fry are still around and seem to be diminishing more slowly than the jags' fry have in the past. I feel this is due to the female mota being much more attentive to her fry. She is much more watchful and protective over her fry but not to the point of attacking anyone. It's mostly that she keeps them in a tighter ball and NEVER leaves their side. In comparison, the jag female lets her fry group into a much larger ball which is, in turn, harder to protect. The jag female will also leave them from time to time at feedings to get a little something to eat. This opens up another oppurtunity for predation.

So while the jags make for excellent parents, the motas are just that much better at it in this particular community setting. And it's only thier first shot.

Also, I have some sad news to report. Tiny jr. didn't make it. I found him stuck against the filter tube dead. Cause of death is unknown, his fins and scales looked perfect and the HRP's he was in with weren't known for their aggression towards him. My best guess may be a parasite. He had a tiny string of whiteish poop hanging out when he was dead. None ofthe others show any signs of parasites or illness however. I'm really disappointed he didn' tmake it. I had high hopes for him.


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## Toby_H

I'm really sorry to hear about Tiny Jr...

The Salvinis were put into a 30 gal by themselves. It's a top shelf tank without direct lighting so they don't get much attention (attention = some drunk guy staring into their tank, my fishroom seems to be a drunk guy magnet). But I did a big water change yesterday and it seems at least the male has grown a bit. His colors are MUCH nicer than the last male Sal I had... the female seems a little runt'ish but we knew that when I picked them up. I have high hopes for the male.

By the way... The female Dempsey I got from you was in a 75 gal with a mate and a handful of Jewels. She had been there for a month or two without spawning. About an hour after yesterdayâ€™s water change she had turned Jet Black and killed every Jewel... I guess she's ready. I hope her mate is ready for one spunky chick!!!


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## terd ferguson

Toby_H said:


> I'm really sorry to hear about Tiny Jr...
> 
> The Salvinis were put into a 30 gal by themselves. It's a top shelf tank without direct lighting so they don't get much attention (attention = some drunk guy staring into their tank, my fishroom seems to be a drunk guy magnet). But I did a big water change yesterday and it seems at least the male has grown a bit. His colors are MUCH nicer than the last male Sal I had... the female seems a little runt'ish but we knew that when I picked them up. I have high hopes for the male.
> 
> By the way... The female Dempsey I got from you was in a 75 gal with a mate and a handful of Jewels. She had been there for a month or two without spawning. About an hour after yesterdayâ€™s water change she had turned Jet Black and killed every Jewel... I guess she's ready. I hope her mate is ready for one spunky chick!!!


I thought that Salvini had potential. Glad you like him. They've got a tankful at my local WalMart for $4 each. Most look as nice as that one. Sorry about your Jewels. I guess that JD needs to release some frustrations, lol.

I've got another small update to offer. The jags laid eggs again tonight. The motas' fry is still hanging in there. They've already lasted longer than any of the jags' spawns. There are still plenty left, I guess about 200. They're dwindling much slower than the jags' fry would. Maybe one of these will be the one to make it? But, the tension will be a little higher with the jags having fry to protect soon. I'll update with any news.

Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


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## roman_back

i want to see a dovi in the tank man!! opcorn:


----------



## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> i want to see a dovi in the tank man!! opcorn:


Me too. 

The jag eggs are now hatching. I've still got a lot of mota fry as well. I'm really surprised they've been able to last this long. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

The loisellis laid eggs last night. So, to sum up, there are lots of free swimming mota fry, newly hatched jag fry, and loiselli eggs. This is the first time there have been three spawns at the same time. So far so good. :thumb:


----------



## BigJagLover

So do you ever raise the fry or just see how long they last. I ask cause you have all those pairs and fry but you always leave them and then you end up wit tiny JR's. Just wondering.

Awsome though on all three having fry/eggs at the same time. Idon't think it would have been soooooo successsful in the 190.  Good luck and when's the dovii enter the mix?


----------



## roman_back

well it must be the season.. my myan and my feste layed eggs this weekend, my festae is the female and is about 3-4 inches and the myan is the male and he is around 8-9inches. didnt think that kind of size difference would permit breeding. this is a first for me besides my convicts having eggs. so far *** had 3 broods of eggs from my cons and never had any hatch. hopefully i have some luck from my festae. anyone know what the outcome will be since the festae and myan are so closely related?? kinda interested but i dont like the idea of having a "hybrid" or a "mutt" so to speak. but the large myan has become super agressive and is very protecive. the others in the tank kinda show him and the festae respect and stay away. no fighting, some gill flairing but nothing serious to note. and thats the latest update from my end of it!!


----------



## terd ferguson

BigJagLover said:


> So do you ever raise the fry or just see how long they last. I ask cause you have all those pairs and fry but you always leave them and then you end up wit tiny JR's. Just wondering.
> 
> Awsome though on all three having fry/eggs at the same time. Idon't think it would have been soooooo successsful in the 190.  Good luck and when's the dovii enter the mix?


I just let nature take it's course in regards to fry. As to spawning in the 190g, I had a couple of times with two spawns at once. I'm still looking for the right dovii specimen.



roman_back said:


> well it must be the season.. my myan and my feste layed eggs this weekend, my festae is the female and is about 3-4 inches and the myan is the male and he is around 8-9inches. didnt think that kind of size difference would permit breeding. this is a first for me besides my convicts having eggs. so far I've had 3 broods of eggs from my cons and never had any hatch. hopefully i have some luck from my festae. anyone know what the outcome will be since the festae and myan are so closely related?? kinda interested but i dont like the idea of having a "hybrid" or a "mutt" so to speak. but the large myan has become super agressive and is very protecive. the others in the tank kinda show him and the festae respect and stay away. no fighting, some gill flairing but nothing serious to note. and thats the latest update from my end of it!!


Cool, it's fascinating watching their behavior when rearing fry. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

I should add that I still have plenty of mota fry and they're getting big (well, big for fry anyway). They've lasted over two weeks now which is much longer than any other batch has managed. Also, the jag fry are free swimming now. We shall soon see if the mota fry lasting longer is due to the protection of the mota female or if this is just a new dynamic that will spread to the other mating pairs.

I know it's still too early to proclaim victory, but the mota fry lasting so long has me very hopeful that some will make it all the way. This will be a huge milestone for me should it happen. The other thing that I would like to see happen is the successful addition of a dovii male. Like I said, I'm still looking for just the right specimen. If that works out well, I'll get a female a few months down the road and see if I can get them to spawn as well. I don't really know how much more I could accomplish with these guys other than just enjoying the benefits of all this hard work.

Thanks again for looking. I'll continue to update. :thumb:


----------



## roman_back

just a suggestion... why not try adding the female dovi first? smaller and less potential agressiveness. as for an update... i found out both my fish are myans.. so no worrys of cross breeding. the eggs have now fell off the side of the pot and are in a big pile on the bottom of it. they look almost like they are tad-poles now. a little white dot with a hair comming out the back is about the best i can describe them. for the first time the two myans have spawned i can say they seem to be VERRY good parents and very protective. kinda excited on how many survive. the dovi and the salvini kinda do a "fly-by" :fish: past the pot and you can just tell they want the taste of the eggs sooooooo bad!! :lol: glad to hear your spawn is doing so well!! i go pick up my 280gal on the 10th. but its going to be a salt.....or just maybe i might make the 140 salt and move the cichlids into the 280... dunno yet.. i still have to support my floors in the house before i add another tank! welp thats all for now!! good luck and happy fishkeeping! =D>


----------



## Big Vine

Good to hear some more positive updates, terd. opcorn:



roman_back said:


> or just maybe i might make the 140 salt and move the cichlids into the 280... dunno yet..


Yes, I think that's the right idea! :thumb:

BV


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## roman_back

Yes, I think that's the right idea! :thumb:

BV[/quote]

Seems to be the common statement from all fellow cichlid lovers lol... its just that the 280 has a built in overflow.. i won a saltwater filter and protien skimmer and uv sterilizer at the lfs on a raffle. so i feel the 280 is better suited for salt.. but i do wish my c/a's were in the larger tank. like i said i dunno yet.. like i said.. i have to support my floors in my house to handle 475 gallons of water in one room and the two larger tanks on the same wall lol.  so it will actually be spring time before the 280 is up and goin.


----------



## terd ferguson

Big Vine said:


> Good to hear some more positive updates, terd. opcorn:
> 
> 
> 
> roman_back said:
> 
> 
> 
> or just maybe i might make the 140 salt and move the cichlids into the 280... dunno yet..
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I think that's the right idea! :thumb:
> 
> BV
Click to expand...

Thanks for keeping up. :thumb:

And roman, the 280g would be plenty good for fresh or salt. Just don't run the protein skimmer for fresh. The UV would be beneficial for salt or fresh.


----------



## terd ferguson

Also, I've got another update to share. Today, without any explanation, all the jag fry disappeared within an hour. I saw them this morning and they were all gone at lunch. I have no idea what happened to them, but I'm sure someone ate them, although I don't know who. This is pretty unusual. Most of the time, they dwindle down day by day and usually go missing overnight when it's dark. But, those jags will be at it again soon, I'm sure. 

The mota fry are still going strong. There seems to be around 100 still left after nearly three weeks.

And now something that has me a little excited. If you've been following my story, you know my loiselllis have spawned many times. But, the eggs have never made it to hatching. They were always eaten by the female. Well, this time, they finally got it right. And boy did they ever get it right. Today, I found (and I'm not exaggerating at all) _*at least*_ 3,000 free swimming fry in their strawberry pot.  The sheer numbers are incredible.

I'll try and get some pictures of this loiselli school. It's incredible. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

Here's a quick shot...










Click on the photo to view a larger version. This is only _*half*_ of the fry. The male has the other half just outside the pot on the backside. This is also unusal behavior for my tank anyway. The other breeding pairs would either take care of fry together equally or only the female would tend to them. But, in either case, the fry would be kept together. This time the mother has half in the pot that she won't leave and the male has the other half that he doesn't leave the side of. Interesting to say the least.


----------



## terd ferguson

This should give you a pretty good idea of the sheer number of loiselli fry...


----------



## roman_back

amazing.. i do have one question.. i do notice that all your fry keep getting ate... what if i would want to grow mine out.. what could i do to ensure a good survival rate. i know a divider wont help because yes it will keep the fish away from the fry but wont keep the fry from swimming to the bigger fish. any ideas would help!! thanks


----------



## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> amazing.. i do have one question.. i do notice that all your fry keep getting ate... what if i would want to grow mine out.. what could i do to ensure a good survival rate. i know a divider wont help because yes it will keep the fish away from the fry but wont keep the fry from swimming to the bigger fish. any ideas would help!! thanks


I would syphon some out and put them in another tank. :thumb:


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## roman_back

here are some photos i took at lunch wit a cell phone. enjoy!


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## roman_back

here is another shot, this one is from today at lunch.


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## terd ferguson

Nice pics roman. :thumb:

I took a couple more tonight. The first is of the loisellis and the few fry they have left. 










The next is of an Oscar. If you've followed any of this thread, you know I'm a sucker for rescues. So, a neighbor of mine had this Oscar in with a 6" Jaguar in a 125g and out of nowhere, the jag beat this Oscar half to death last night. The jag was relentless and wouldn't stop bullying the Oscar. So my buddy brought him to me. He's pretty big, I estimate close to 16". You can see in the pic that he's bigger than my albino Oscar, Albie, who is easily 15". This new guy is much thicker as well. He's pretty beat up now but some salt and Melafix will fix him right up.










Speaking of Albie, she hasn't been displaying any other breeding behavior since I last told you guys of her digging around a few weeks ago. But, since this new Oscar has gone in, she's been hanging around him (I'm guessing it's a "him") a lot, much to the chagrin of the other Tiger Oscar with whom Albie spent almost all of her time. What does this all mean? I don't know.  But, I'll let you guys know when I know. :thumb:

Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## HiImSean

good luck with the oscar. you gonna still keep it after you fix him up?


----------



## terd ferguson

HiImSean said:


> good luck with the oscar. you gonna still keep it after you fix him up?


Yes, I'll keep him. Assuming there are no problems between him and the other two Oscars that is. None so far though.


----------



## terd ferguson

That new Oscar is doing better already. He didn't eat yesterday but more than made up for it today. He and the other two Oscars are getting on fine too. I was a little worried as Oscars can sometimes be very aggressive towards other Oscars. But, so far so good.

I don't see any mota fry around anywhere. They're more than likely all gone. They lasted quite a while though. There are still more loiselli fry than I can count. Literally thousands. I'm thinking if removing some into my now empty hospital tank to grow them out a little. I may do this tomorrow.

Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## roman_back

well i have a bunch of free swimmers also.. tryin to figure out a way to keep some. on a side note i have BAD news. i had a contractor come look at my home last night to estimate on how much it would cost me to support my floors for my new 280. well come to find out the home has been infested with termites and the floors have all been redone.. and half-a**. my load bearing wall is sitting about 9 inches off to the side of the main beam in the home. so the contractor said it would cost $7,500 to have my floors fixed right and $1000 if i wanted to just have supports built for the tank. soo i guess im not gettin the tank. :x thats all for now!


----------



## Big Vine

Those are some nice shots of the loiselli and their fry! 8) 
Congrats on that oscar rescue---I'm glad to hear all 3 of them are getting along thus far.

roman_back...sorry about the floor situation  
BV


----------



## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> well i have a bunch of free swimmers also.. tryin to figure out a way to keep some. on a side note i have BAD news. i had a contractor come look at my home last night to estimate on how much it would cost me to support my floors for my new 280. well come to find out the home has been infested with termites and the floors have all been redone.. and half-a**. my load bearing wall is sitting about 9 inches off to the side of the main beam in the home. so the contractor said it would cost $7,500 to have my floors fixed right and $1000 if i wanted to just have supports built for the tank. soo i guess im not gettin the tank. :x thats all for now!


That really sucks about your floors. If you've got a garage, maybe you can think about setting one up out there.



Big Vine said:


> Those are some nice shots of the loiselli and their fry!
> Congrats on that oscar rescue---I'm glad to hear all 3 of them are getting along thus far.
> 
> BV


Thanks. Still no problems with the new Oscar. In fact, he and the big Albino have been swmming around together a lot. The other smaller Tiger Oscar is never far away though. They're like a trio. But, I am glad they're getting on well. I was kind of worried.

As for the Loisellis, there is stillliterally thousands of fry. I am still amazed at the numbers. Everything else is still going well. The other good news I have is I finally got rid of the 190g. Someone came to pick it up today. If it had stayed here another week, I would've just set it back up, lol.


----------



## terd ferguson

There are still plenty of Loiselli fry. The new Oscar is still doing great. He is constantly staring at his own reflection, lol. Maybe he's vain. 

I've got an offer from a local guy who is looking to re-home his 10" male dovii. He's supposed to be calm, although he is currently housed by himself. I'm optomistic, but I don't "need" one so bad that I'll take the first one that comes down the pike. I'd rather be patient to select just the right personality for the best fit in my tank. I'm supposed to go see him this weekend, so I'll let you guys know.

Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## dwarfpike

For my own sanity, those oscar lengths are TL and not SL right??


----------



## terd ferguson

dwarfpike said:


> For my own sanity, those oscar lengths are TL and not SL right??


Yes, total length. I describe all my fishes' measurements in total length, from mouth to tip of the tail. And for the record, there are only a couple that have been measured out of the water with a ruler. The rest are my best guess based on comparison to the confirmed fish lengths and known/confirmed tank features. For instance, Albie (the albino Oscar) is one of the fishes I've measured out of the tank with a ruler. He (or she) is for sure more than 14" total length. The newest rescue Oscar is easily two inches longer and almost half again as thick.


----------



## dwarfpike

Okay good ... :lol: I can easily imagine a 14" oscar with a 4" tail as I've seen a few before ... I couldn't picture a 18" oscar plus that same 4" tail though!

TL seems to be the new trend, so I was thinking that's what it was. Guess us old hobby fuddyduddy's have to get used to it. At least seeing it, I doubt I'll ever measure in it myself. If standard length is good enough for the scientists, it's good enough for me.

How about another full length shot if your plants have filled in some?


----------



## terd ferguson

dwarfpike said:


> Okay good ... :lol: I can easily imagine a 14" oscar with a 4" tail as I've seen a few before ... I couldn't picture a 18" oscar plus that same 4" tail though!
> 
> TL seems to be the new trend, so I was thinking that's what it was. Guess us old hobby fuddyduddy's have to get used to it. At least seeing it, I doubt I'll ever measure in it myself. If standard length is good enough for the scientists, it's good enough for me.
> 
> How about another full length shot if your plants have filled in some?


I feel it's easier to convey the fishes' true size with total length versus standard length. At least in this non-labratory setting. I can understand the need for standard length for scientific purposes as a better way of comparing and recording specimens. When others list sizes for fish, it's easier for me to picture them using total length than trying to figure out how big their tail fins may be.

As far as the plants go, it's been mixed results. The java moss is thriving. The swords, on the other hand, are only doing "so so". One got completely destroyed, another is doing "just ok", and the last is doing great. The mangroves are still thriving. I just got a new camera. As soon as I figure it out, I'll get some fresh pics up.

Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

I got a new camera so I took some quick test shots to see how they turn out. I'm sure they'll get better as I learn more about how to work this new camera. Anyway, there's still tons of loiselli fry. Everything else is going fine. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:

loiselli parents...









again...









new Oscar healing up nicely...









grammodes...









freddy with a little bit of mota tail...


----------



## Mudfrog

Looking Great!

I'm thinking about going back to black sand when I upgrade the Dovii to his next tank. He just looked sooooo much better with black sand 

So did you pass on the Dovii?


----------



## terd ferguson

Mudfrog said:


> Looking Great!
> 
> I'm thinking about going back to black sand when I upgrade the Dovii to his next tank. He just looked sooooo much better with black sand
> 
> So did you pass on the Dovii?


Black sand definately makes the colors pop. I didn't get the chance to check out that dovii this weekend. I'm in the process of rescheduling with the owner. Hopefully, it won't be too much longer.

Also, the new rescue Oscar and the big albino Oscar seem to be getting very cozy. I have a feeling they'll have eggs soon. opcorn:


----------



## Big Vine

Nice pics...congrats on the new cam.
I especially like that shot of the red oscar posing for the camera! 8) 
BV


----------



## terd ferguson

Big Vine said:


> Nice pics...congrats on the new cam.
> I especially like that shot of the red oscar posing for the camera! 8)
> BV


Thanks. That guy has quite the personality. He spent his first few days "staring in the mirror" at himself. He seems to like to keep his mouth open a lot. He makes "faces" at me. It's pretty funny.


----------



## roman_back

well i gave away my african's in the 55. i moved all the baby myans to a 10gallon.. and i moved the firemouth and 2 cons out of the 140 and into the 55. then i was at the LFS and couldnt refuse the juvi firemouth, sal and tex that was there... :dancing: got some new fish and will have photos up soon!! anyone want any myan baby's???? LOL


----------



## terd ferguson

I now have _four_ confirmed breeding pairs. Check it out!


----------



## roman_back

my god!!! that is amazing terd!!


----------



## Big Vine

Nice to see that your 'magic water' sig. line still applies more than ever...:dancing: 
BV :lol:


----------



## HONDO

congrats on the whole deal. this is my favorite thread i have ever read. its been like reading a good novel... took me a few days, now im kind of sad its over.

terd, could you describe your ugj a bit more. how you set it up, how you arranged it etc? im trying to keep sand clean and your equipment looks very familiar to whats laying on my basement floor.

thanks again for a fantastic thread.


----------



## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> my god!!! that is amazing terd!!


Thanks. 8)



Big Vine said:


> Nice to see that your 'magic water' sig. line still applies more than ever...
> BV


For sure. :thumb:



HONDO said:


> congrats on the whole deal. this is my favorite thread i have ever read. its been like reading a good novel... took me a few days, now im kind of sad its over.
> 
> terd, could you describe your ugj a bit more. how you set it up, how you arranged it etc? im trying to keep sand clean and your equipment looks very familiar to whats laying on my basement floor.
> 
> thanks again for a fantastic thread.


It's not over by a long shot. Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? lol.  Seriously, I will continue to update this thread with all developments. As for the UGJ, I ended up not running it. I couldn't hook the powerheads to the PVC, so I kind of said "screw it". I just use the powerheads on their own. If you want to build your own, there is an excellent article on this site. It's the one I used to model mine after. Here's a link...
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ug_jets.php

And thanks HONDO, for the kind words. I like hearing folks enjoy reading about what I'm doing.

For everyone else, the Oscar eggs were gone this morning when the lights came on. I suspect they weren't viable and/or not fertilized. They stayed that white color. I assume either the parents ate them or the synodontis. But, it's only their first try. I'm anxious to see what happens next time with them. If you guys remember, it took the Loisellis several tries before they got it right. Maybe the Oscars just needed some practice.

Anyway, thanks again for looking. I appreciate the interest in my little project. It definately has been a hard but rewarding and enjoyable experience so far. :thumb:


----------



## HONDO

great, thanks again. i was trying to figure out how to hook it to a powerhead, im thinking about attaching it to the output of my eheim 2217. well see. thanks for the response and i will be keeping an eye on this thread. good luck and keep it comin!


----------



## Big Vine

Maybe the oscars will get it right next time...or maybe they're both females...:?



terd ferguson said:


> Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? lol.


Trick question. :lol:

BV


----------



## roman_back

> It's not over by a long shot. Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? lol.
> 
> :? umm... germans lol.... :lol: ya got me there for a min.. i had to re-read it twice lol... i was like "what the...." haha...
> as far as an update on my end.... i have the myans clearing back out the clay pot and the vent tubes are down again.... are they able to re-produce that fast???? i mean i still have fry in my 10gal growin out and there are gonna be more??  im in a pickle if more arise.. they may have to become feeders  dunno.. will know more come monday!!


----------



## littlefish1000

:dancing: Hey turd,I also tried dry humping my wet sump...and Holy Cow!did it ever produce results...Got peacock bass strutting all OVER the joint...got a net I can borrow?


----------



## littlefish1000

HEY TURD...just thought I`d let you know...I`ve been dry humpping my wet sump and darned if I did`nt get a bunch of central Americans!


----------



## littlefish1000

Germans?!!!Pearl Harbor?read your history pal...Fish had nothing to do with that


----------



## terd ferguson

Sorry I haven't updated in a while. I got rid of my bike and took on a new project that's been keeping me a little busy.










Anyway, on to fishier news. The loisellis have laid eggs again today. This time there looks to be about 5,000 if you can believe that. And not to be outdone, the jags and motas have also laid eggs. All three batches appear to be fertilized. The Oscars are doing the dance and I expect eggs from them soon as well. This is another first for me. That is, the loisellis still have fry left and are having another batch at the same time. Right now, the female is doing security for the eggs and the male is still watching over the fry. The fry are now around an inch long (or very close). It'll be intersting to see how this turns out.

I'll try and get some new photos up soon. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## remarkosmoc

Sounds awesome. I love this thread :thumb:


----------



## roman_back

well after i moved my cons into the 55 i now have about 200 fry there.. have sold most of the 1st batch of the myans, have the remaining 100 or so in a 10 gallon. and the myans have now laid eggs again.. seems to be more than the first batch as yours are terd. the whole pot from side to side is covered, so now i have 100 or so growing out, more on the way and about 200 free swimming cons to deal with!! seems like ill not have to buy feeder guppies for awhile lol.


----------



## terd ferguson

The new loiselli eggs have hatched and are wriggling. If the older batch of fry doesn't eat them, they'll be swimming in a couple of days. :thumb:

I assume the jag eggs have hatched as they are no longer where momma laid them. Where she has moved the wrigglers, I'm not sure. I think they're in a nook in the driftwood where she's made her nest. This is a new spot this go around for her eggs.

The mota hasn't laid nearly as many eggs as the others, but she is still young. I'm sure her egg count will go up as she matures more. Her eggs have either hatched or have been eaten. I don't see her wrigglers, but that doesn't mean they're gone.

I'll continue to update. Thanks again for looking.


----------



## terd ferguson

Ok, so the loisellis have lots and lots of fry once again. I've seen the jaguar fry, the momma has them hidden in a nook of driftwood. The mota I think is a different story. She didn't lay many eggs to begin with. Of those, only half appeared fertilized. I don't think these have actually hatched. They got really fuzzy, so I think this batch was no good.

There are still plenty of the older batch of loiselli fry. They are actually starting to look like their parents now. Some of them get picked off from time to time, mostly by the Green Terrors. The GT's wait til the parents aren't watching and swoop in and eat one or two. But, the fry are getting larger and there are enough of them that I think it's very possible that some can reach grow out. Again, time will tell.

Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## roman_back

what do u feed ur fry??


----------



## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> what do u feed ur fry??


They eat whatever the big ones spit out. I don't feed them anything specifically.


----------



## terd ferguson

There seems to be even more loiselli fry than last time now that they're free swimming. Also, there are still fry from the previous batch still hanging around. There appears to be at least 500 jaguar fry free swimming as well. The mota eggs must not have been any good. I can't see any of their fry anywhere. New pictures are coming soon, I promise. opcorn:


----------



## Mudfrog

Dovii.. Dovii.. Dovii..


----------



## terd ferguson

Mudfrog said:


> Dovii.. Dovii.. Dovii..


I'm still looking. I'd be more than willing to try out yours for a while.


----------



## Mudfrog

terd ferguson said:


> Mudfrog said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dovii.. Dovii.. Dovii..
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still looking. I'd be more than willing to try out yours for a while.
Click to expand...

I bet you would 

He still won't accept any tankmates.. The female is at 4", I've heard of them spawning at that size but he won't take to her.. I'll try again when she's at 5".

It is getting annoying only being able to keep one 7" fish in a 120g though 

It'll be different when he's 18" in a 240+ though..


----------



## Mudfrog

Heck I'd be happy if he just allowed her in the tank much less spawning


----------



## roman_back

well all my new batch of myan fry are free swimming.. and man is there a bunch, still have 100 or so growing out in a 10 gall.. they are gettin too big for the 10 so either they are goin to be feeders or im getting a 30 gall for my fry. the parents are 10X more protective over this batch then the last, my dovi does flybys and grabs a mouthfull when he can, the large myan male has kicked the dovi's butt the past few days he is missing a few scales on his side and his tail it torn. gonna have to get a divider or something, the agression has arose in my tank. :?


----------



## roman_back

Well its been almost a month... any updates??


----------



## ArcticCatRider

Hey Terd.
I ain't been on here in a while, but how are your fish and the big 360 doin'?
Get that dovii yet???

Btw, I rescued a 8 inch GT on Saturday, and He must be hurt or something Ima try to fix him up, Other tha that, my tanks, and fish are doing great too.


----------



## roman_back

my myans laid eggs again. :roll: its almost like clockwork.. i have now gave up on tryin to save and sell them.. im just using them as feeders. the parents almost dont care anymore and are not as protective. on a side note, i had to move my juvie green texas and my adult firemouth over to the 140. the pair of con's killed my juvie sal and juvie firemouth. so i saved the other two before something bad happened. its bad when i have dovi's sal's and jack dempseys living together with no problems but i put a mated pair of cons with a few others and its a complete disaster. so now i have a 55 gallon that is a convict tank lol. not what i wanted. well thats all for now. :thumb:


----------



## exasperatus2002

Any pics?[/list]


----------



## terd ferguson

Sorry it's been so long without an update guys. Long story short, it's been the same old same old. Batch after batch of fry from the same old players. The Oscars still haven't had a batch of eggs hatch which leads me to believe they are both females. I currently have two batches from the loisellis and the big jags. They became free swimming in the last few days. They have each had three batches since the last update if I remember correctly. The smaller jags are doing quite well and seem to have paired up. They have been looking as if they are going to drop eggs any day for the last month. The female's tube has been out at least that long. Time will tell. That will make five breeding pairs once they succeed.

There has been one surprise. There is still a lone fry left from the loiselli spawn back at the end of September. All his brothers and sisters disappeared weeks ago but he's still hanging in there. I wonder how long he will last?

Thanks for still being interested and thanks for looking. :thumb: I'm uploading some updated pics right now. Stay tuned. opcorn:


----------



## terd ferguson

terd ferguson said:


> Sorry it's been so long without an update guys. Long story short, it's been the same old same old. Batch after batch of fry from the same old players. The Oscars still haven't had a batch of eggs hatch which leads me to believe they are both females. I currently have two batches from the loisellis and the big jags. They became free swimming in the last few days. They have each had three batches since the last update if I remember correctly. The smaller jags are doing quite well and seem to have paired up. They have been looking as if they are going to drop eggs any day for the last month. The female's tube has been out at least that long. Time will tell. That will make five breeding pairs once they succeed.
> 
> There has been one surprise. There is still a lone fry left from the loiselli spawn back at the end of September. All his brothers and sisters disappeared weeks ago but he's still hanging in there. I wonder how long he will last?
> 
> Thanks for still being interested and thanks for looking. :thumb: I'm uploading some updated pics right now. Stay tuned. opcorn:


Oh, and still no dovii. I've been super busy through the holidays with family in and out of town along with my kids starting gymnastics a couple of times a week. On top of that, I've been fooling with that Bel Air. I've got it lowered, driving and a new interior in it. 

I do plan to see about getting the dovii very soon though. Stay tuned for the pics. popcorn:


----------



## terd ferguson

Just took these tonight. 

Current batch of loiselli fry...









Current batch of jag fry...









Grammodes...









The rest of the gang...


----------



## chrispyweld

terd ferguson said:


>


Whats up with his face?


----------



## terd ferguson

chrispyweld said:


> Whats up with his face?


He's had that dark spot since I got him. It's much more pronounced when he's in his breeding coloration. Here's a different angle. He's flaring at me to keep me from eating his babies, lol...


----------



## Snakes to Cichs

I have to say the pic you labeled "The rest of the gang...." is one of the coolest pix I have ever seen. =D>


----------



## roman_back

bout time terd.. thought u fell off the face of the cichlid planet lol.. glad to see things are doing fine. *** had 4 batches of myans... and 3 batches of cons.. hard to believe the myans are out-breeding the cons lol.. :lol: keep us posted... and dont wait soo dang long next time!


----------



## terd ferguson

Snakes to Cichs said:


> I have to say the pic you labeled "The rest of the gang...." is one of the coolest pix I have ever seen. =D>


Thanks very much. :thumb:



roman_back said:


> bout time terd.. thought u fell off the face of the cichlid planet lol.. glad to see things are doing fine. I've had 4 batches of myans... and 3 batches of cons.. hard to believe the myans are out-breeding the cons lol.. keep us posted... and dont wait soo dang long next time!


Hey, that's good news. Glad everything's going well with your fishes. :thumb:

Here's a small update on my tank, there's still a pretty big cloud of loiselli fry and a slightly smaller cloud of jag fry. The one lone fry from back in September is still hanging around. He's found himself a good hiding spot that nobody can get in to eat him and bits of food seem to find it's way in there for him to eat. I'm amazed he's lasted this long and wonder how much longer he'll make it. I'll try and get a picture of him, it's kind of hard though with him under some wood.

Now for some more good news. The TSN's are finally going. I had been growing them out for a guy who ended up flaking out on me a while back. I was going to put them in my pond to make room for a dovii or two. As it turns out, I've found a much better option. I'm donating them to a South American aquarium exhibit. They'll have 3,800 gallons to enjoy. This place is like a museum/public aquarium. They have a South American display tank, local lake fishes dispaly, and a Southeastern US swamp display along with a lot of other cool stuff like a planetarium, etc.. It's a nature type science center.

With that said, as soon as the TSN's are gone (in the next week), I'll be placing an order with Jef Rapps for 6 Parachromis dovii to try and get a pair. I spoke with him this morning and the biggest size he has is around 2.5" to 3", still too small to be sexed. Hopefully, I'll get a male and female out of the six. I'm still trying to decide if I want to put them striaght in the big tank or grow them out to around 5" to 6" in one of my smaller tanks first before adding them. Jeff Rapps also told me he has a big proven breeding pair of dovii at 9" and 13". Despite the cost, this is somewhat tempting instead of ordering the six juvies. Either way, I'll have some dovii soon. Stay tuned. :thumb:

Besides moving the TSN's, I'm moving the GT's and the RT in my sig. This is also to make room for the coming dovii. The TSN's have pretty much put a whooping on the Convicts in the big tank and there's only one left. I've been growing out some more in my breeding colony to replace these in the big tank. When these Cons get big enough, I'll add a couple of pairs to the big tank. I really love Convicts and the interaction with them in the big tank is really cool to watch. Also, I plan to add another Synodontis eupterus to help with clean up duty.

Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## LJ

> I'm donating them to a South American aquarium exhibit. They'll have 3,800 gallons to enjoy.


Excellent


----------



## pbyrley

> I'm donating them to a South American aquarium exhibit. They'll have 3,800 gallons to enjoy.


I am fascinated by this thread - I wish I still lived in Huntersville (near Concord, NC), I would beg to see terd's tank. I would like to know where there is a SA exhibit in case it is somewhere in driving distance for me.

Thanks again for all the hard work - both in keeping your fish so happy and in reporting to us.


----------



## terd ferguson

pbyrley said:


> I'm donating them to a South American aquarium exhibit. They'll have 3,800 gallons to enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> I am fascinated by this thread - I wish I still lived in Huntersville (near Concord, NC), I would beg to see terd's tank. I would like to know where there is a SA exhibit in case it is somewhere in driving distance for me.
> 
> Thanks again for all the hard work - both in keeping your fish so happy and in reporting to us.
Click to expand...

Catawba Science Center in Hickory. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

OK, so the TSN's and GT's are off to their new home. I have spoken with Jeff Rapps and Ken Davis about getting the dovii. Jeff's dovii are too small to be sexed at 1 1/2". Ken can guarantee a male and female at 4 1/2". So, I sent a money order off to Ken today. Shipping will likely occur Monday and I'll have the two dovii on Tuesday. These particular dovii are of the Lago Nicaragua race. They're a more taller bodied fish than the riverine dovii from Costa Rica. The Nicaraguans also have more of a gold color on their bodies. Overall, they are a beautiful fish. How's that for an update? 

Here's two of Ken's Nicaraguan dovii a member on MFK has. The male is about 7" and the female is 4 1/2"....


----------



## ArcticCatRider

Darn, now those are beautiful!  
Can't wait to see some pics of them in their new home :fish: 
:thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

The dovii(s) will be here tomorrow by 3:00 p.m. E.S.T.. :dancing:


----------



## roman_back

here is the latest shots from my tank.. here is my dovi








my clown loach eating the myan babies









and my 55gallon convict breeding tank


----------



## roman_back

my royal pleco next to my 4-line pictus








my female con








another shot of the 55g breeder tank


----------



## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> here is the latest shots from my tank.. here is my dovi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> my clown loach eating the myan babies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and my 55gallon convict breeding tank


Lookin' good. :thumb: Love that royal pleco.


----------



## roman_back

thanks!! u wouldnt happen to know the sex of my dovii would ya?? its about 8'' now. and its right at a yr old


----------



## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> thanks!! u wouldnt happen to know the sex of my dovii would ya?? its about 8'' now. and its right at a yr old


That's 100% male. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

Here's my dovii...

Male...









Female...









Male in the tank...









The loisellis, the jags, the motas, and the Oscars all appear to be ready to lay eggs again any minute. The loisellis and jags do it about once a month on or near a full moon. The Oscars and motas not nearly as often. Four simultaneous spawns has happened before, but not with some new, smallish tankmates. The jags and loisellis each have around 200 good sized fry from their last spawn. And then there are still the five or so loisellis from the August '08 spawn still hanging around. These guys are now on their own and are no longer being protected by their parents. They're well over an inch now and look like minature versions of the parents.

The male dovii is about 4 1/2" and the female is about 3"+. They are not yet a bonded pair. We will see what happens. I'll get some more pics when they get settled in. For now, it's lights out to try and ease the stress from shipping.

Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


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## roman_back

the poor things look so pale :-? just stressed i assume?


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## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> the poor things look so pale :-? just stressed i assume?


That and this particular race is more gold than blue.


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## terd ferguson

The dovii both made it through the night without any scars. The female has been hiding in the java moss a lot. The male, however, has been out swimming around exploring. I'm a little nervous for him as he doesn't yet know where to stay away from (the fry). The jags chased him away a couple of times, but the little dovii is pretty fast and nimble. I wonder what went through his mind the first time he saw that big male jag come out? I'm sure he'll learn soon enough where the "danger zones" are. So far, so good. 8)


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## roman_back

yea, my dovi seems to have good common sense. he stays away from the much larger myan father.. and he really dont bother many tankmates. he has it out for the female myan for some reason. he will flare his gills at her almost like clockwork as they pass each others paths. other than that my tank has became stable, the 55 gallon i had some problems in, i had a juvi firemouth, juvi salvini and a juvi green tex in there with the cons and they totally went crazy... needless to say i only have the green tex left and i moved him into the 140. its bad when i have a 140 full of half grown... predatory fish and the juvi can survive, but i put them in a 55 with 2 convicts and its suicide! :-? but im glad u have made it back on here more frequent terd.. i missed ya and this thread.. im sure others did too!! :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> yea, my dovi seems to have good common sense. he stays away from the much larger myan father.. and he really dont bother many tankmates. he has it out for the female myan for some reason. he will flare his gills at her almost like clockwork as they pass each others paths. other than that my tank has became stable, the 55 gallon i had some problems in, i had a juvi firemouth, juvi salvini and a juvi green tex in there with the cons and they totally went crazy... needless to say i only have the green tex left and i moved him into the 140. its bad when i have a 140 full of half grown... predatory fish and the juvi can survive, but i put them in a 55 with 2 convicts and its suicide! :-? but im glad u have made it back on here more frequent terd.. i missed ya and this thread.. im sure others did too!! :thumb:


Thanks for the kind words. :thumb:

The female dovii won't come out of hiding. I'm kind of worried as she is very timid. I totally understand, she's pretty small and there are multiple groups of fry being protected. The male, on the other hand is swimming around as if he owns the tank. He's figured out where the danger zones are and avoids them. I've seen him eat, so all seems well for now.

This guy is not camera shy. Here's a couple of pics I took tonight...




























And here's one I've been growing out to eventually put in the big tank. It might be a while though. This is an L14 pleco, common name Goldie Pleco or Sunshine Pleco. I got it back in August at about 1 1/2". He's barely 2 1/2" now, very slow grower. Also in the shot is a Petsmart Synodontis I picked up today. It's a Synodontis decorus x multipunctatus hybrid. This guy is very cool looking. He should hit 8" or so max. I was going to get another Synodontis eupterus to aid in clean up for the big tank, but this guy was so much more interesting. I've heard them called "Zebra synodontis" for a common name. Hybrid hating aside, Petsmart is discontinuing these, so get one while you can (and they're on sale for $14).


----------



## roman_back

how does it feel to have all the parachromis now?? =D>


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## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> how does it feel to have all the parachromis now?? =D>


Nervous. :lol:


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## roman_back

:lol: i completly understand. but what ur doin is amazing.. i feel i am even accomplishing something by having my dovi in a community settin with other large agressive fish. its truley astounding to watch them all live and interact together. :dancing:


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## terd ferguson

Here's a couple of shots I took tonight that turned out ok...

Lutino Tiger Oscar









Red Tiger Oscar









Tiger Oscar









Jag Pair


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## terd ferguson

Couple more...

Female Mota









Male Loiselli, I love his finnage









Tank Shot (specks on the left and middle are fry)


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## terd ferguson

I found the female dovii today missing half her face. She was still breathing, but only barely. I moved her to a hospital tank, but she died soon after. I think this was a combination of being too small along with being too timid with a little "wrong place, wrong time" thrown in as well. She had been hiding in the java moss near the loisellis' fry grazing area. All the fishes that spawn will allow (tolerate) others swimming near their fry. Camping out and setting up shop in their fry grazing areas is definately out though.

The male is still more than fine. He is eating really well and is not in any way timid like the female was. He swims around quite a bit, but seems to know to stay away from fry. I'm confident he'll do well.

This goes back to what I've said in the past and bears repeating. When selecting a fish to add, personality is probably the most important part to maiximize your chance at success in a community like mine. In this case, I had no hand in selecting the fish as I ordered them from one of the best in the biz. I think too timid is as bad as too aggressive/territorial in my case.

I'm not even sure that the small size played a large role in the female dovii's death. I've added smaller fishes before without problems. In fact, there's a tiny little texas in there now that's less than 2 1/2" that is largely ignored. My bigger female jag went in at 1 1/2" and has gone on to spawn tens of thousands of fry. I think this is due to the way they carry themselves. For instance, the texas swims around confidently and is afraid of no one. He has no problem hanging around inches from the bottomless pit that is my giant 16" Oscar's mouth. I think it's a matter of "if you don't run, you won't get chased".

For the record, this is the first cichlid on cichlid not for food murder in this community. I'd like to hear others' thoughts on this as well. But please don't respond with "this is a sign of things to come" type posts. I feel like this is a minor hitch in the road, I don't need another "your tank is doomed to fail" argument over a single death from what is more than likely my fault for not trusting my instincts and adding a fish I felt was too timid to make it. But I would like to hear your experiences with aggressive Americans and how they react towards new timid tankmates.

Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


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## imusuallyuseless

Just want to say sorry for your loss. Sometimes you just have that feeling that things aren't going to work out with a particular addition, but you hope for the best anyway...sometimes in vain. What are you plans for replacement? Several grow outs to find one w/the right personality?


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## terd ferguson

imusuallyuseless said:


> Just want to say sorry for your loss. Sometimes you just have that feeling that things aren't going to work out with a particular addition, but you hope for the best anyway...sometimes in vain. What are you plans for replacement? Several grow outs to find one w/the right personality?


Thanks for the kind words. What you've described is probably the best scenario if I have to get females shipped. Or, I can take my chances with just another single female and grow her out in a smaller community until she reaches around 6" and try that. I really haven't decided what to do yet. I really wish I had a local source with multiple females available to choose from. For now, my immediate goal is to power feed this male dovii and get some size on him. He is ruthless with pellets, lol.


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## roman_back

So sorry to hear about the loss. this just goes to show dovii's aint as big and bad as everyone makes them out to be. also.. like i stated in my above posts. my little green tex i had in my 55 with the cons. he was gettin beat up bad in there. then i moved him to the larger tank with the full grown fish and they ignore him. and even if you look back at latter post, my dovi when purchaced was less than 2'' in size. here is the photo








he was almost gar food 3 times note the scales missing on his side. but for his fortune and my misfortune the gar committed suicide and jumped out the tank. i hate to hear for ur loss, but i think the right thing to do is buy about 6 and pick one out, the only bad thing is... what do u do with the other 5 dovi when u pick the one u want??? not everyone has a tank, or the knowledge to care for one of these fish. looks like a tuff decision terd.. either way i got ur back! :thumb:


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## imusuallyuseless

I personally think trying to get another single female is going to lead to frustration, unless you're getting it from someone that's already had it in a 'mixed' tank if you will, where it has been dominant so that it has the 'right' personality...but I don't even have one of the parachromis...so take my thoughts w/a giant grain of salt :wink:

Anyway, Just want to say you've done nice work w/your tank so far, so don't let this setback discourage you.

PS If you ever decide to rescue any fry from that tank, please please let me know if you be interested in selling me some mota's :fish:


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## terd ferguson

imusuallyuseless said:


> I personally think trying to get another single female is going to lead to frustration, unless you're getting it from someone that's already had it in a 'mixed' tank if you will, where it has been dominant so that it has the 'right' personality...but I don't even have one of the parachromis...so take my thoughts w/a giant grain of salt :wink:
> 
> Anyway, Just want to say you've done nice work w/your tank so far, so don't let this setback discourage you.
> 
> PS If you ever decide to rescue any fry from that tank, please please let me know if you be interested in selling me some mota's :fish:


I think if you can get a fish a little under 6", and as long as the current stock doesn't kill it, it can learn to be a community fish for sure. But, I've also added much larger fishes that are still doing just fine. It's probably been about half and half (big and small) with regards to the sizes of the fishes I've added. And that female dovii was the only murder. I think she was too timid, as I've added even smaller fishes too.

The motas just spawned again, but the eggs fuzzed over.


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## terd ferguson

Here's another mini update...

The loisellis laid eggs again last night. They still have around 100 fry from their last spawn hanging around and four or five from back in August. The big jags' fry are getting quite large and I'm starting to wonder what I'm going to do with them if they keep surviving. They are pretty close to 1 3/4"-2" now and number around 75. They will be laying eggs again any day.

The smaller jags still look to be ready to drop eggs any day. They have been displaying breeding behavior for the last couple of months, but still no eggs yet. The motas spawned around the same time as the loisellis, but the eggs fuzzed over and weren't fertilized.

The male dovii is still doing well and eating well. I can't really tell if he's packed on any size, but I see him everyday and sometimes it's hard to tell. The tiny texas is doing great as well. He seems to pal up with the biggest Oscar now and then and they swim around together. That's pretty funny to watch, a 16" Oscar with a 2 1/2" texas swimming side by side, back and forth.

I also added two more Synodontis eupterus I got from Ken Davis a couple of weeks ago. One wasn't well after shipping and died the day after adding him. The other is doing great. I also got another Synodontis eupterus from a member of the local aquarium club that's doing great too for a total of three. The floor of my tank has never been so clean, lol. 

The convicts in my breeding colony are getting big and I'll be adding them to the big tank in the next month or so. There's five, three females and two males. There's a group of about 30 fry in the tank with them. Once I move the parents, I'll put some of the fry in the big tank for food and grow the rest out to add to the big tank later. I think I'd like to have about 10 cons total in the big tank (like I did before the TSN's decimated their numbers).

I still haven't moved that Red Terror to my neighbor's place. I just haven't been able to catch it. That is the fiesties fish I've had when the net comes out. But, as soon as I can catch it, it'll be gone. I still don't have concrete plans for a female dovii in the very near future, but there will be one sooner or later. All in all, and long story short, it's been the same old same old. Lots of babies, and lots of eating.

Thanks again for looking, pictures soon. opcorn:


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## terd ferguson

I got some plant clippings tonight from a guy in my local aquarium club. I love local clubs. 

The guy I got the clippings from is a planted tank guy and says these are all hearty and need little to no special care or ferts (especially the way my fishes poop, lol) other than lights. I forget all the names, I got about six or seven different varieties (some are in with my cons and hrp's). The fishes have done really well with the swords and java moss and I think they'll do well with these as well. I can't wait til they get to growing.

Here's some pics...

Tank shot (the light green plants are the new ones)...









Giant male loiselli in breeding dress with some new plants...









A little better view of the above plants with a couple of loiselli fry...









More new plants...









Jag fry with more plants...









Horrible dark shot of the male dovii with still more new plants...









Tiny but very brave Texas...









You can click on the photos for a larger version. Thanks for looking. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

Here's two more shots showing two very similar, yet different fish. Both of these have been confirmed as two different races of Parachromis loiselli by Ken Davis and Paul Loiselle. I have been calling the second fish a friedrichsthalii as it has always looked so different from the first fish. There are as many subtle variances in coloration and body shape as there are similarities, but I have to defer to those with much more knowledge than me. 

Captain Awesome, giant male loiselli, 13++









Joe Kicka$$, male loiselli, 12"









Also, I now have jaguar fry surpassing 2" in total length. This is a first for this tank. The older loiselli fry (only 4 or 5) are taller but are now being eclipsed in length by the jags. The jags are also much more curious and roam around quite a bit out of their parents' nest and what I would consider their "comfort zone". They are still watched over by the parents and frequently go back to their nest, especially at night. The oldest loiselli fry, on the other hand, spend all of their time hiding in nooks and crannies and are totally independent of their parents. Once the current batch of loiselli eggs hatch, there will be three generations of loiselli fry in the tank at the same time. In a few weeks, a significant number of these will be headed to Ken Davis to be spread throughout the globe, lol.

I once thought that the chances of long term fry survivability was a long shot at best. I am starting to come to the realization that it is now a strong possibility with these jags. Their numbers (50 to 75) along with size and growth rate, even if there is some attrition through predation, give this batch a good shot at making it. Being eaten is honestly no longer much of a conern due to being too large for their main adversary, the synodontis. The rest of the tank are fed so well that fry are largely ignored as a food source. Their current size is when jaguar growth starts to really take off until around 4". It will take much less time to go from 2" to 4" than from eggs to 2". Many are now as large as the smallest fish I've ever introduced, their mother.

I have to think that the argument of whether or not this enviornment is conducive to breeding can finally be put to rest. Whether or not this enviornment will be conducive to long term fry survivability is still up in the air, although it is becoming more likely with each passing week. And with each successive batch lasting longer and longer, I feel it can only be a matter of time. My other remaining goal, a community of Parachromis including dovii, is still a long way from becoming a reality. Successful dovii spawning in this community, also not guaranteed, can come sooner. But true success will be measured in years rather than months. But, so far, so good (touch wood  ).


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## wolf13

Having finally read through this entire thread, I have to say you have a heck of a tank most people can only imagine having and a species list most people couldn't imagine trying. Absolutly incredible.

A couple of questions. Earlier in the thread, you mentioned there was no real pecking order, Is that still true with the larger tank, more species and more spawns?

At the end, you make mention of the little texas in there, but I never saw a plan for him. is he going to be a permenant resident?

Also curious, how much territory is left in the tank for spawn sites for another pair or two, especially were you to get spawning community dovii?


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## terd ferguson

wolf13 said:


> Having finally read through this entire thread, I have to say you have a heck of a tank most people can only imagine having and a species list most people couldn't imagine trying. Absolutly incredible.
> 
> A couple of questions. Earlier in the thread, you mentioned there was no real pecking order, Is that still true with the larger tank, more species and more spawns?
> 
> At the end, you make mention of the little texas in there, but I never saw a plan for him. is he going to be a permenant resident?
> 
> Also curious, how much territory is left in the tank for spawn sites for another pair or two, especially were you to get spawning community dovii?


The only fish that seem sub-dominant are the smaller jaguar pair at 7" or so. Everyone else are all pretty much equals and seem to show what I can only describe as mutual respect. The dovii and texas are still too new and too small to be anything but sub-dominant though the dovii will surely find his proper place as he gets larger.

You're right that there was never a texas in the plans. I got him as a distraction just before adding the dovii. I wanted something smaller than the dovii who otherwise would've been the smallest fish in the tank. I still haven't decided whether or not the Texas will be a permanent addition. Probably not as I would still love to have room to get a 100% positive freddy.

As to your last question, I think one additional spawining pair is probably the limit (if I haven't reached the limit already). Whether this will be an additional female dovii or a future freddy pair is yet to be determined. With that said, I think I could move the grammodes and smaller jag pair to make room for both a freddy and dovii pair. That's a tough decision though as I really love the grammodes and I think the smaller jags will turn out to be more stunning in color and pattern than the big ones I'm more emotinally attached to. But then again, the grammodes doesn't really offer anything the dovii doesn't satisfy. My original intent with the grammodes was to have a "mini dovii" as I wasn't (still aren't) sure a dovii would be possible. And larger grammodes go for $100+ where I'm from.  Long story short, the smaller jags will likely stay due to their potential and I could stand losing the grammodes for a freddy.


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## terd ferguson

The latest loiselli eggs hatched late last night. This makes three generations of their fry in the tank at the same time. There's four or five of the oldest, around 75 of the second, and about a zillion of the newest. Once these guys get bigger than 1/4", a bunch will be sent to Ken Davis for worldwide distribution, lol.

The jag fry seem to be growing at an astonishing rate now. I can see clearly visible growth each day. It's amazing. I've started to feed them flakes now in addition to bloodworms. Some of these fry will even come to the top to feed with their parents. I guess I've got to stop calling them fry now. They're large enough to now be considered small juveniles I think. 

I'm closer than I thought to moving the Convicts to the big tank. I've raised these 5 (2 males & 3 females) in a 29g for the last six months from 1" to restart my breeding/feeder program after the TSN's ate most of the original ones. The males are now getting close to 3 1/2" with the females at around 2 1/2". There's at least 30 fry in there with them around 3/4". Some of the female fry are already showing color on their bellies. I'll probably move the adults next weekend.

I figure I'll move the adults to the big tank and grow their fry out to around the same size (as the current adults) and put five or so more in the big tank. I'd like to have around 10 or 12 in the big tank for the interaction. Whatever's left over will serve as the new breeder/feeder colony in the 29g for an additional safe, live food source for the big tank.

Since I've been using the 29g for the cons lately, I haven't had a dedicated hospital tank (and touch wood, I've not needed one). And if I do need one, it should probably be bigger than the 29g. So, I picked up a 55g from a buddy today for free to store in the garage for "just in case". I've always had an Emperor 400 running on the big tank for just such an emergency. I'm also tempted to set this up to rear fry to sell, but I'm still not sure if it's worth the hassle.

Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

I finally got a new battery for my good camera. Recent pics have been with the old one. I don't think I've posted any pics of the smaller managuense pair since I first got them. So here's a couple of shots. The male is right around 7 1/2" with the female being only slightly smaller....



















Here's the larger female from the large pair of managuense with the male in the background....









Some of her fry playing around...









Here's how far away from the parents they wander when they get curious (see the full tank shot next for reference)....









The large managuense pair's nest is in the center of the tank in the very back. The little jag in the previous shot is in front of the strawberry pot on the right hand side....









I wish I could take better photos to really show the true colors of these fish. It is much more awesome in person than the pictures show. These are all taken with no flash, just the tank lights on. You can click on the images for a larger version. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

The little dovii took a big stride today. He went up to the top to feed with everyone else. I had been feeding him directly in his hiding spot. He is still dark indicating his subdominance. He'll come around soon enough when he gets more size and confidence. 8)

Check out the blue despite the dark coloration. Look closely and you'll see two teeth on the bottom. He's going to be awesome...









Here's another shot of some of the jag fry...









Click on the photos for a larger version. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


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## wolf13

man, you are a good advertisement for parachromis' and any tank that makes a 15+ inch oscar look tiny is impressive. have you ever done a vidio of feeding time?


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## terd ferguson

wolf13 said:


> man, you are a good advertisement for parachromis' and any tank that makes a 15+ inch oscar look tiny is impressive. have you ever done a vidio of feeding time?


Thanks. I've only done one video a long time ago. It's in this thread somewhere way back. I really should do another. :thumb:


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## travis2k

*** been following along since near the beginning, dont you think its time you had the thread title changed to going on 20 months now? Hehe, great job with all the fish, stunning.

For pics, try learning to use the flash rather than fighting it, I have found it really helps the colors show up, you just have to take the pics at a slight angle, to avoid the reflection.
(I beleive a polar lens filter will also block the glare)

I used to do the no flash thing, but found my photos turned out better when I use flash (you might wreck some photos with reflections, but the ones that work, look way better.
From what I see of "pro" photo guys, I beleive they use another external flash above the tank as well.

It's all about light.

Keep up the hard work, and the updates.


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## terd ferguson

travis2k said:


> I've been following along since near the beginning, dont you think its time you had the thread title changed to going on 20 months now? Hehe, great job with all the fish, stunning.
> 
> For pics, try learning to use the flash rather than fighting it, I have found it really helps the colors show up, you just have to take the pics at a slight angle, to avoid the reflection.
> (I beleive a polar lens filter will also block the glare)
> 
> I used to do the no flash thing, but found my photos turned out better when I use flash (you might wreck some photos with reflections, but the ones that work, look way better.
> From what I see of "pro" photo guys, I beleive they use another external flash above the tank as well.
> 
> It's all about light.
> 
> Keep up the hard work, and the updates.


You're right, I have been fighting the flash. I really should try and learn my camera better. I know guys like Mo Devlin use up to three flashes, including one above the tank. His photos are always of THE highest quality. My set up isn't fancy, just a 14mp Kodak with no other special equipment. But I could do better.

Thanks a lot for the tips. I'll give it a shot and post some results. opcorn:


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## terd ferguson

I now have _five_ breeding pairs. The smaller jag pair laid eggs during the night.


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## terd ferguson

The loisellis laid eggs a few days ago. These are now free swimming. This makes three generations of their fry in the tank at the same time. The smaller jag pair is taking very good care of their eggs for first time parents. The larger jag pair is laying eggs right now. They will have two generations of fry in the tank at the same time.

All in all, things are still going well.


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## clgkag

do you have a place lined up to get rid of all your fry? Sounds like the tank is going to be overrun here pretty soon.


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## terd ferguson

clgkag said:


> do you have a place lined up to get rid of all your fry? Sounds like the tank is going to be overrun here pretty soon.


I haven't had to worry about it for the last year and a half as the fry problem would take care of itself. The jags and loisellis are the only ones currently lasting a long time. I'm starting to wonder now what I'll do when they start to survive. I have a market for all the loiselli fry I can save. The managuense fry, on the other hand, are a little harder to get rid of being more common in the trade. As much as I'd hate to, I'll have to cull them or put them in my giant pond. But, I imagine my pond would be over run in short order too.


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## terd ferguson

The smaller jag pair's eggs are hatching. They are a very golden color versus the others' who have been a little more greyish. The larger jag pair's eggs should be hatching tomorrow or the next day. The loisellis fry are free swimming. This time, there's a lot less than usual. There was the normal amount of eggs, just not as many fry. Someone must've had a good snack.


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## ashilli48

terd ferguson said:


> ashilli48 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did he say anything about substrate or does it matter?
> 
> 
> 
> He said in saltwater, they're usually planted in substrate. But he's also seen them floated like I'm doing. So, I guess it doesn't matter.
Click to expand...

Any updates on the mangroves "that you aren't supposed to put in fresh water because they won't survive?" :lol:


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## eraserhead

Hey man, more power to ya. I've got a tank going very similar to yours. Mines just a 175 gallon with a 40gal sump, but I'm running a big denitrator in there that works really well. My stock list is:

2x vieja melanurus (male & female- just spawned) 10" & 7"
1 parachromis friedrichsthalii - 9"
1 labiatus 10"
1 parachromis dovii 14"
1 jack dempsey 7"
2x bocourti (male & female) 13" & 11"
1 redhead severum 8"

All of the fish are wild caught with the exception of the dempsey. I also have a gold dempsey who is growing quickly in another tank, and I'm going to put him in the big tank when he is big enough to deal.

No problems. I clean the tank regularly to get their **** out of there, but the nitrates never hit about 25 or so with the denitrator. I won't say there is no aggression, but nobody ever gets stressed or beaten up. They just chase each other around a little and butt heads, but hardly ever lock lips. ****, the melanurus were comfy enough to spawn, and the fry should be free-swimming in the next 2 days. Purists are just obnoxious as far as I'm concerned! Don't tell me how to run my tank. My fish are happy. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

ashilli48 said:


> terd ferguson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ashilli48 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did he say anything about substrate or does it matter?
> 
> 
> 
> He said in saltwater, they're usually planted in substrate. But he's also seen them floated like I'm doing. So, I guess it doesn't matter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Any updates on the mangroves "that you aren't supposed to put in fresh water because they won't survive?" :lol:
Click to expand...

LOL, The mangroves are still doing great. I did lose one when I moved to the big tank. I'm pretty sure it was my fault, I broke a root. But otherwise, they are still growing and doing their job keeping nitrates down to next to nothing. Just to give an example, on water change day, they are usually around 10ppm.

I'm glad you brought that up as a matter of fact. I am in the early planning stages of building a bigger sump. I have the acrylic already. The sump I have now is really too small, although it is working well. The new one will be 100g vs. the current 50g. Basically, I am going to make more room for mangroves after the bio filtration and before the pump. This space can also be a refuge for fry or a sick fish.


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## terd ferguson

eraserhead said:


> Hey man, more power to ya. I've got a tank going very similar to yours. Mines just a 175 gallon with a 40gal sump, but I'm running a big denitrator in there that works really well. My stock list is:
> 
> 2x vieja melanurus (male & female- just spawned) 10" & 7"
> 1 parachromis friedrichsthalii - 9"
> 1 labiatus 10"
> 1 parachromis dovii 14"
> 1 jack dempsey 7"
> 2x bocourti (male & female) 13" & 11"
> 1 redhead severum 8"
> 
> All of the fish are wild caught with the exception of the dempsey. I also have a gold dempsey who is growing quickly in another tank, and I'm going to put him in the big tank when he is big enough to deal.
> 
> No problems. I clean the tank regularly to get their #%$& out of there, but the nitrates never hit about 25 or so with the denitrator. I won't say there is no aggression, but nobody ever gets stressed or beaten up. They just chase each other around a little and butt heads, but hardly ever lock lips. #%$&, the melanurus were comfy enough to spawn, and the fry should be free-swimming in the next 2 days. Purists are just obnoxious as far as I'm concerned! Don't tell me how to run my tank. My fish are happy. :thumb:


That sounds like a really cool tank. Please share more details on your denitrator. Algea Screen? opcorn:


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## ashilli48

Thanks for the update....how 'bout some pictures of the mangroves?


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## terd ferguson

ashilli48 said:


> Thanks for the update....how 'bout some pictures of the mangroves?


Not very exciting but here you go... 










We also got a new fish watching buddy to go with our German Shepherd Dog. He's a little Chihuahua we rescued. I think I mentioned before I'm a real sucker for rescues. Besides fish, this brings our animal count up to 2 dogs, a Mexican Amazon Parrot, and a cat. All the natural enemies living in harmony, lol. 

Here's El Guapo...


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## ashilli48

Cool....I was hoping for a side shot but you may not be able to accomplish that depending on how your sump is set up.....


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## terd ferguson

Also, There occurred today what I consider very odd parental behavior. The loiselli pair as you know currently have free swimming fry less than a week old. As you've also read, you know they usually have around 4,000 fry each spawn. This time for some reason, they only had about 400 free swimmers. There were a lot more eggs that looked viable. I'm not sure of the reason as to why there were so few free swimmers.

I had to mention the above to set up the odd part. The small jag pair had spawned and got a whole bunch of wigglers. Well, this morning, when the lights came on, the small jags only had around 30 wigglers in their nest. Not only that, but both the male and female had some scratches around their faces. I figured someone must have come during the night for a snack figuring them for a push over.

I was wrong. The loiselli pair had apparantly stolen the rest of the jags' wigglers and moved them into their own nest with their own free swimming fry. It seems as if the loiselli pair are now raising the jag fry as their own.

Check it out. The smaller white/gold spots are the jags' (now the loisellis') wigglers. The bigger grey spots are the loisellis' free swimmers.









Here is what the jags are left with. You can see the damage on the female's face.









Now, if you've seen my tank shots, the loiselli pair's nest is in the big strawberry pot on the left side of the tank. The smaller jag pair moved their home from over on the right side to behind the loisellis' pot just before spawning. I figured the jags felt safer on the left due to having two other breeding pairs close by to maybe keep other tankmates from bothering their coming fry.

So, has anyone else experienced any behavior similar to this? The only thing I've seen that comes close is back when Tiny paralyzed himself, the other large male jag immediately took over parental duties with Tiny's fry. This just seems very odd to me. :-? opcorn:


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## dwarfpike

I haven't had it happen, but read a Dr. Leibel article where his pike cichlids would signal and steal the dovii fry across the divider and raise them. So rare but not completely unheard of.


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## terd ferguson

ashilli48 said:


> Cool....I was hoping for a side shot but you may not be able to accomplish that depending on how your sump is set up.....


I'll see what I can do. I'll need to clean off the side of the sump where the mangroves are so you can see their root structure. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

dwarfpike said:


> I haven't had it happen, but read a Dr. Leibel article where his pike cichlids would signal and steal the dovii fry across the divider and raise them. So rare but not completely unheard of.


That's fascinating. Do you have a link or can you go into more detail? What do you mean by or how did they "signal". I'd think it would pretty crazy to steal fry from spawning dovii.


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## dwarfpike

Sadly, the TFH the article is in is in storage (circa late 1990's if I remember right), so I doubt I'll get to it. With snow on the ground, it's too cold to go digging through the 20+ boxes atm in an unheated storage unit!!! :lol:

The tank was divided by plastic eggcrating in his office. The pikes would flicker their pelvic fins, essentially calling the dovii fry over to them. Appearantly this pissed off the dovii to no end. But instead of eating the fry, the pikes began hearding/raising them even though they never laid eggs themselves. It was one of the spangled pike species.

If I do happen across it, will grab it and post it up for you.


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## terd ferguson

dwarfpike said:


> Sadly, the TFH the article is in is in storage (circa late 1990's if I remember right), so I doubt I'll get to it. With snow on the ground, it's too cold to go digging through the 20+ boxes atm in an unheated storage unit!!! :lol:
> 
> The tank was divided by plastic eggcrating in his office. The pikes would flicker their pelvic fins, essentially calling the dovii fry over to them. Appearantly this pissed off the dovii to no end. But instead of eating the fry, the pikes began hearding/raising them even though they never laid eggs themselves. It was one of the spangled pike species.
> 
> If I do happen across it, will grab it and post it up for you.


Thanks, that's very interesting. I've sent Dr. Leibel and Paul Loiselle an email asking about this behavior. I'll post their answers. opcorn:


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## terd ferguson

Two new records for my tank.

1. Largest Batch of Fry. This stood at around 4,000 to 5,000, held by the loiselli pair every time they spawned. The large jag pair have shattered this record. I know this sounds hard to believe, but I estimate 10,000 free swimmers.   

2. Quickest time between spawns. This record was also held by the loiselli pair at about 4 weeks. The motas laid eggs again only two weeks since their last failed spawn resulting in unfertilized eggs.

Check out the jags' fry. It's impossible to get them all in one shot. They take up about 3 cubic feet, lol.


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## terd ferguson

Here's the response I got from the esteemed Paul Loiselle in regards to the stealing fry question...

"_Dear Kevin,

Parental Central American cichlids - including guapotes - routinely kidnap other cichlids' free-swimming fry in nature as well as under aquarium conditions. However, the only species I have seen snatch wrigglers in this manner were a pair of Neetroplus nematopus that kidnapped most of the spawn produced by a neighboring pair of Cryptoheros nigrofasciatus. Given that "neets" tend to be over the top in so many other respects, I just put this down as another one of their charming little idiosyncracies! Given your observations, I obviously need to rethink this position.

I will definitely follow up on your forum posting. You have apparently managed to put together a very improbable version of the proverbial "Peacable Kingdom"!

Ho ela velona!

Paul_


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## terd ferguson

Everything's still going great. All the jag fry from the 10,000 batch disappeared within two days except for 20 or so survivors. The loiselli's last batch also disappeared entirely within a couple of days. The mota's fry, however, are sticking around. They don't have as many as the others, usually about 200-300 hatch. There are now about 100 left. The four or five big fry (now sub-juveniles) are still around.

The dovii is doing well and now spends 100% of his time out in the open. He is getting lighter in color and a lot of blue on his fins. I finally was able to catch the RT and sent him on to my neighbor. I sold my grammodes for big money. The reason for this is two fold. One, I got big money and two, I want to make more room to try another female dovii and a real deal 100% freddy (or a pair).

Otherwise, it's just the same old, same old. I'll get some new pics and a video up soon. Stay tuned and thanks for looking. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

I finally got my lighting fully sorted. I'm now running four units with two 4' T5 bulbs per unit. There's eight total 4' T5's. Each of these has super bright reflectors as well. I had been running two of these T5 units (two 4' bulbs each) and two 4' shop type lights with regular florescent bulbs. With the new lights, it's now super bright and it really makes the fishes' colors pop. Pictures are still inbound soon. opcorn:


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## wolf13

very interesting what the doctor had to say. I am in love with your tank.

I wasn't around for your earlier threads, so I was wondering about life before this thread? did you raise the original inhabitants at the start of the thread mostly together in the 160, or were they added piecemeal at different sizes to the 160 or were they transfers from a previous tank?

Also, whats your feeding schedule like now, I know in the first post you mentioned multiple feedings a day, but how about now?

And if you were to start all over, (aside I am guessing from starting with the 160 and just skipping to your current tank); what would you change or do differently?


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## terd ferguson

wolf13 said:


> very interesting what the doctor had to say. I am in love with your tank.
> 
> I wasn't around for your earlier threads, so I was wondering about life before this thread? did you raise the original inhabitants at the start of the thread mostly together in the 160, or were they added piecemeal at different sizes to the 160 or were they transfers from a previous tank?
> 
> Also, whats your feeding schedule like now, I know in the first post you mentioned multiple feedings a day, but how about now?
> 
> And if you were to start all over, (aside I am guessing from starting with the 160 and just skipping to your current tank); what would you change or do differently?


Those are some good questions. Some of these were started in a 55g before the 190g. The 190g held most of the current stock. They were introduced at different sizes ranging from small juveniles (2" or so) to large adults and everything in between. I've made some moves when a lot of money was offered for fishes that didn't interest me as much (non Parachromis). I've moved a fish or two to make room for more Parachromis. I've traded two for a motaguense and a big Oscar. And I donated the TSN's to a public aquarium's South American exhibit rather than put them in my pond (they ate a lot of Convicts and were on the verge of being big enough to soon be able to choke down bigger fishes). The theme has always been mostly Parachromis.

I still feed them at least twice a day. Most of the time, it's three times a day. I still give a large variety of healthy foods. I use Hikari pellets pretty much exclusively for a staple. I supplement this with market shrimp, frozen bloodworms, market scallops, market fish filets, and live feeders. The live feeders are given ince or twice a month. When my Convict breeding colony starts to get over run, I'll put a bunch in the big tank. Otherwise, I get 100 comets from a confirmed safe source. About once a month, I'll starve them for a day.

If I was to do it all again from the beginning, I would've stuck with only Parachromis. That's pretty much where I've ended up. I probably still would do an Oscar or two. Their personality is just too good to not have one or two. I also would've gotten the dovii sooner. I would also have some sort of easier, faster water changing system. Even with the python, draining and filling 200 gallons once a week takes about 2 1/2 hours. That's pretty much it. I just love the guapotes. They are endlessy fascinating and reward me in many ways.

Thanks for following along. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

I should also add that I'll be picking up a couple of the "La Ceiba" freddys from a local club member soon. For those unfamiliar, these are a race of Parachromis which may or may not be a seperate, new species of Parachromis. Experts are still undecided. They are now mostly considered to be a geographical varient of Parachromis friedrichsthalii. This was the main reason for selling the grammodes (besides the money, lol).

Also, with the dovii gaining more confidence with each passing day, the little Texas has served his purpose. I got the little Texas so that the two then new dovii wouldn't be the smallest fish in the tank. The hope was that the Texas might serve as a distraction ensuring the safety of the smallish dovii. As you gus recall, it was a 50% success with the female dovii being killed within a week. I'll probaly move the Texas out as soon as a good female dovii becomes available. I'll more than likely go with Ken Davis again. I've been more than happy with him so far. :thumb:


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## wolf13

Thanks, Very cool on the yellowheads, I've seen aquamojo's photo's of them and they are gorgeous. They have a rep as another ultra aggressive species even for parachromis so I'll be excited to see how they fit in. I figured they'd show up in your tank someday though.

while this thread is worthy of following for pure curiosity's sake, I have learned a great deal from it, and between you and aquamojo, I have really fallen in love with parachromis. I may soon be biting the bullet and purchasing a house finally, which means I will finally be able to do a large tank and large fish (no I am not buying a new house just for that, I have a lot of reasons to want out of this dump and half of them are neighbors, but it is on my mind and has been a long term goal since I started). While you certainly have a unique tank that I wouldn't try and emulate (especailly the dovii  ), its also been a wealth of information. So thank you for continuing to post in this thread.

oh, I've been meaning to ask, you wouldn't happen to be the poster of the same name that used to be on PBN?


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## terd ferguson

wolf13 said:


> Thanks, Very cool on the yellowheads, I've seen aquamojo's photo's of them and they are gorgeous. They have a rep as another ultra aggressive species even for parachromis so I'll be excited to see how they fit in. I figured they'd show up in your tank someday though.
> 
> while this thread is worthy of following for pure curiosity's sake, I have learned a great deal from it, and between you and aquamojo, I have really fallen in love with parachromis. I may soon be biting the bullet and purchasing a house finally, which means I will finally be able to do a large tank and large fish (no I am not buying a new house just for that, I have a lot of reasons to want out of this dump and half of them are neighbors, but it is on my mind and has been a long term goal since I started). While you certainly have a unique tank that I wouldn't try and emulate (especailly the dovii  ), its also been a wealth of information. So thank you for continuing to post in this thread.
> 
> oh, I've been meaning to ask, you wouldn't happen to be the poster of the same name that used to be on PBN?


I'm glad you like the thread. You get the reason I started it. I think some people used to think I started this to prove how smart I think I am or something like that. It's all about the information. I want to document my successes _and_ failures. It's all for the common good. And maybe along the way, I can pass along some valuable information. And I'm not talking about how to duplicate my set up. But with this setup and stock comes overkill everything. Filtration, disease prevention, feeding, temps, water parameters, habitat. It all becomes that much more important because I need all the help I can get, lol.

Besides the unconventional stocking, I've done other things that would be considered "out of the ordinary". The use of mangroves for filtration comes to mind. I like to use the analogy of racing. With vehicles put to extreme use as in racing, engineering tougher and better components eventually trickle down to regular cars. While I would like to think of myself as a pioneer, the truth is I'm just a regular guy who is not always ready to take conventional wisdom as gospel. I'm not the first to try any of this stuff. I just put it all together in a way that works. For the time being anyway. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. I've been lucky so far.

And Mo Devlin is a guy I admire too. He and his awesome photography (along with a couple of others on MFK) is one of the main reasons I got interested in Parachromis. His devotion to the photography and the fishes inspires me. At the end of the day, it is all about the fishes. He is truly one of the good guys in the hobby.

Good luck getting your house. There's nothing like the feeling of going into "your" house for the first time after the closing. Thanks for the compliments and thanks for "getting it". :thumb:

***EDITED TO ADD***
I've been on a bunch of forums as terd ferguson, but I've never heard of PBN.


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## Big Vine

Well I've finally gotten caught up on everything I've missed since moving (just before Christmas), and I'm happy to see you're still sharing some excellent updates and posting up some nice pics as well. Way to go, terd, and congrats on all the successes and learning experiences you've been through with this setup...keep it up! :thumb: 
BV


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## terd ferguson

Big Vine said:


> Well I've finally gotten caught up on everything I've missed since moving (just before Christmas), and I'm happy to see you're still sharing some excellent updates and posting up some nice pics as well. Way to go, terd, and congrats on all the successes and learning experiences you've been through with this setup...keep it up! :thumb:
> BV


Thanks BV.


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## terd ferguson

I'm supposed to go check out those Parachromis "la ceiba" this weekend. In the meantime, I got this little guy today, labeled by the LFS as a "black jaguar". I'm pretty sure it's a loiselli, but I had to get it on the off chance it turns out to be Parachromis friedrichsthalii. It's very hard for me to tell the difference between these two sometimes, epecially at a small size. Body and head shape is much more managuense than loiselli, but pattern and coloration say loiselli.



















He went in the big tank straight away. He's already eating with the big boys, which is a great sign. Nobody's paying him much attention. He and the dovii swam together for a while this evening.

Besides this, the big jag pair and the loiselli pair both have a new batch of eggs. The jag batch is as big as ever while the loisellis seem to have another uncharacteristically small batch. The smaller jag pair look to be ready to give it another try anytime. The motas have 30 or so fry they're tending to. And the Oscars, who knows when they'll do the deed again. It's impossible to predict their spawning behavior. They'll act as if they're going to lay eggs any minute for weeks at a time. Then they'll stop and eggs will show up with no hint or explanation.

I plan to work on some good pics and a video tomorrow. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


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## dafishman2323

hey terd, nice tank, your tank is one of the reasons i wanted to get a parachromis, my tank is just gonna be a 125 gal with 1 losiellei, 1 texas, 1 sal and 1 cutteri, bt im having trouble decideding to order from jeff rapps, or ken davis, does jeff rapps have a minmium order


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## wolf13

nice looking guy little guy! but I can't help you on ID, I have a hard time learning ID from photo's, I need live specimans to watch for a while. Maybe a cross?

You're lucky to have stores that have so many options. everything is african's around here, and in the past few years I've only seen a handful of Jags outside the petsmart tanks and not a single other parachromis.


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## terd ferguson

dafishman2323 said:


> hey terd, nice tank, your tank is one of the reasons i wanted to get a parachromis, my tank is just gonna be a 125 gal with 1 losiellei, 1 texas, 1 sal and 1 cutteri, bt im having trouble decideding to order from jeff rapps, or ken davis, does jeff rapps have a minmium order


Both those guys are some of the best in the biz. You couldn't go wrong with either of them. For what it's worth, Ken Davis' shipping will be tons cheaper for you as he's in Georgia and Rapps is in New Jersey. It'll probably come down to which one has what you want in stock when you're ready to order. Good luck and be sure to share pics when you get them. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

wolf13 said:


> nice looking guy little guy! but I can't help you on ID, I have a hard time learning ID from photo's, I need live specimans to watch for a while. Maybe a cross?
> 
> You're lucky to have stores that have so many options. everything is african's around here, and in the past few years I've only seen a handful of Jags outside the petsmart tanks and not a single other parachromis.


There's really not that many Parachromis available around me. They are few and far between (besides in my tank, lol). When I see them, I buy them. So what's in my tank is what's been available to me for the last two years (minus the dovii, he came from Ken Davis).


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## Notrevo

TF - so the fish count in your tank is 21? You are working some magic indeed; I am having trouble with the 12 I have in mine! I am thinking about getting rid of about three of them. Continued success to you!


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## terd ferguson

Notrevo said:


> TF - so the fish count in your tank is 21? You are working some magic indeed; I am having trouble with the 12 I have in mine! I am thinking about getting rid of about three of them. Continued success to you!


With the newest loiselli, it's 22. It's not as bad as it may first sound though. For instance, the three synodontis being non guapote works well. Same with the Convicts. Same with the Oscars. With the Parachromis, it seems that most problems are con speicific. So, there's really only 12 Parachromis in nearly 400 gallons. At the same time, 8 of these 12 are part of a breeding pair. So, it's more like 8 guapotes (four pairs and four singles). And with each fish or pair with it's own seperate "house", they all feel relatively secure. When you think about it in these terms, it's easier to understand.

I'm thinking the newest loiselli is female. If this is true, she will more than likely form up with the lone male loiselli. Using the reasoning above, it's almost like I'm not even adding a fish since she will share the already present male loiselli's "house". In other words, adding another fish doesn't have to equal adding more territory. It'll be the same kind of thing if I get a pair of the la ceibas. Adding a pair is the same as adding a single as far as space (territory) requirements go.

When I get the la ceiba(s) this weekend, I'll more than likely rehome the Texas. He has served his purpose marvelously. I would like to get a male and female of the la ceibas, but I'm not quite sure if both will be available. I know the guy has 8 to choose from between 3" and 6". One of those may or may not be female. I'll just have to wait and see. Thanks for the well wishes.


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## wolf13

I know you have stated repeatedly that there is very little aggression normally, do you feel a part of that is because you have so many pairs rather then individuals? I recall you previously mentioned the idea that most fish aren't alone in your tank so an aggressor is taking on two rather then one? possibly increasing territorial protectiveness especially during spawning, but also stabilizing aggression in general because they have territory's and are paired rather then alone and seeking mates and territory?

Have you had any parachromis that you actually haven't been able to keep so far because it wouldn't settle in (besides the female dovii)?


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## terd ferguson

wolf13 said:


> I know you have stated repeatedly that there is very little aggression normally, do you feel a part of that is because you have so many pairs rather then individuals? I recall you previously mentioned the idea that most fish aren't alone in your tank so an aggressor is taking on two rather then one? possibly increasing territorial protectiveness especially during spawning, but also stabilizing aggression in general because they have territory's and are paired rather then alone and seeking mates and territory?


I think what you've said is a big part of it. Also, having enough space for each fish or pair to have their own house plays a role. In other words, they're not all fighting for same clay pot. I feel like keeping them happy is also very important. I keep them happy by feeding them often and a lot, warm water, frequent large water changes for excellent water parameters, overkill filtration, overkill disease prevention, etc.. I think the fishes being happy leads to less frustration. And I think frustration leads to nuisance aggression taken out on tankmates. And don't forget luck, I'm sure that plays a big part as well.

It's more the sum total of everything taken together than just one thing that makes this work. I don't think I would be so successful if I wasn't taking into account the big picture. I take each and every variable that I can control as a fishkeeper and try to manipulate those to work for me rather than against me.



wolf13 said:


> Have you had any parachromis that you actually haven't been able to keep so far because it wouldn't settle in (besides the female dovii)?


Not so far, touch wood.  Every Parachromis I've ever had is still in there with the exception of the female dovii you mentioned and the giant jag, Tiny, who paralyzed himself (I ended up having to euthanize him). I've traded and sold some fishes (non-Parachromis), but only to make room for more Parachromis. This "la ceiba" (or pair) will more than likely have to be the last additions. I feel I'm at the limit without moving anybody else. And the Oscars sure aren't going anywhere, they're my wife's favorites. I guess I could move the smaller jag pair if push came to shove and I found a nice freddy (or pair).

Now these "la ceibas" may be a different story as far as aggression. I don't know. I've heard some say their aggression is on another level. But I've heard some say the opposite as well. Basically, they sound like every other Parachromis. I think it all comes down to the individual fish's personality. But these "la ceibas" are less removed from the wild as well with most being F1 or F2. That could have something to do with elevated aggression levels. I've not had any wild caught, but I understand they seem to have less "manners" than those bred in aquariums for generations.

I'll tell you one thing though, I'm going to find out.  The good news is that with them coming from a local club member, I'll be able to study a group of eight or so and choose the one (or pair) I think will be the best fit in my tank personality wise. So, I'll at least have that working for me. It's all about trying to maximize you chances of success. I control every aspect of their enviornment. The only thing I can't control is the fishes' minds (...yet, lol). But I can still try and make them as happy and content as possible.

Keep this in mind too, I've got several fishes in the tank now that were given/traded to me or came from an LFS that someone traded in because they were "too mean". Just something to think about. I feel the enviornment is as important as the fishes' personality or reputation when it comes to managing aggression and their territorial nature.


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## wolf13

How long have you ever gone without feeding?


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## terd ferguson

wolf13 said:


> How long have you ever gone without feeding?


The longest I've ever gone was a week in the old 190g during an ich outbreak. I feed them three times a day, six days a week for the most part. After skipping a day, I get a bath when it's feeding time. They go nuts, like big slobbering dogs waging their tails. 

Also, I try to target feed the smaller ones a couple of extra times a day. I use Hikari sinking pellets and drop them where the smaller fish are. The extra feedings help the smaller ones grow faster. I feel the bigger they are, the less likely someone will be to challenge them. And the faster I can get them bigger, the better.


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## dafishman2323

hey terd, thats a nice new parachromis you got do you know what it is. also im getting 2 loisellie here pretty soon, my lfs got some in so im getting them there. also how do you tell male from female


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## terd ferguson

dafishman2323 said:


> hey terd, thats a nice new parachromis you got do you know what it is. also im getting 2 loisellie here pretty soon, my lfs got some in so im getting them there. also how do you tell male from female


I am 99% positive it's Parachromis loiselli and about 90% sure it's a female. As far as telling male from female, like other Parachromis, it can be tricky until they reach around 6". With the loisellis though, females will usually be a brighter yellow. They will also be more solid yellow with black bands while the males will have worm markings of a contrasting yellow on their faces and spangles on their fins.

You can look back through this thread to see some pics of male and female loisellis side by side. :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

More babies. The loisellis have a newly hatched batch. Both the large and small jag pairs both have an abundance of fertilized eggs.


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## KC

After 3 days of reading, off and on, all I can say now that I finished it is, "wow". Thank you for keeping us informed with the updates for all this time. Your racing analogy has merit, I can see alot of useful information trickling down.

About the GT, what happened to him? You removed it about the same time as the TSN's, but I missed where exactly he went. What prompted you to include the GT at the beginning, him being SA and outmatched from the get go. I understand how the oscar got there (wife's influence) and the natural progression to 3 oscars from that point, but why include the GT's in the 1st place? I would think that for the best chance of success, mixing SA and CA together might not have been the best bet.

Also for what it's worth, Apistogramma routinely steal fry in the aquarium setting. I can't explain exactly why, but I enjoyed hearing that your parachromis are so simliar to my apistos. And yes, I got lost in the wrong forum and ended up here!

This was a truly enjoyable read, thanks.


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## terd ferguson

KC said:


> After 3 days of reading, off and on, all I can say now that I finished it is, "wow". Thank you for keeping us informed with the updates for all this time. Your racing analogy has merit, I can see alot of useful information trickling down.
> 
> About the GT, what happened to him? You removed it about the same time as the TSN's, but I missed where exactly he went. What prompted you to include the GT at the beginning, him being SA and outmatched from the get go. I understand how the oscar got there (wife's influence) and the natural progression to 3 oscars from that point, but why include the GT's in the 1st place? I would think that for the best chance of success, mixing SA and CA together might not have been the best bet.
> 
> Also for what it's worth, Apistogramma routinely steal fry in the aquarium setting. I can't explain exactly why, but I enjoyed hearing that your parachromis are so simliar to my apistos. And yes, I got lost in the wrong forum and ended up here!
> 
> This was a truly enjoyable read, thanks.


Thanks for the kind words. As to the question why have the GT's, I just like them. They didn't get picked on, but they were very timid. They didn't compete well for food with the others and therefore grew even more slowly than usual. And being so timid, they weren't very interesting to watch. I felt the space they took up could be better utilized with more Parachromis (just more personality), lol. So they went to friends.


----------



## dafishman2323

hey terd, im wondering how personable the parachromis(losiellei and mota mainly) are, are they like oscars will they come up to the tank when they see you.


----------



## marmot74

dafishman2323 said:


> hey terd, im wondering how personable the parachromis(losiellei and mota mainly) are, are they like oscars will they come up to the tank when they see you.


I have an Oscar and Loiselli in the same tank as well and the Loiselli loves to come visit me. Actually all my fish do (Midas, Jag, Lois, Jack, Oscar). The only one that doesn't come out is my evil Salvini  Except when I have food


----------



## terd ferguson

dafishman2323 said:


> hey terd, im wondering how personable the parachromis(losiellei and mota mainly) are, are they like oscars will they come up to the tank when they see you.


They are very smart and interactive. They will come up to the front to see me. Sometimes the females stay behind if there are wrigglers. But once their fry are free swimming, they come up front too. The oscars, on the other hand, will get you wet, lol. They get so excited and splash around like crazy at the top of the tank.


----------



## Manoah Marton

Could you post some pictures of your convicts? Are they breeding?
I LOVE your tank. It's amazing that you were able to house such aggressive species together.
If I was EVER to get a HUGE tank (like yours) I would do the same thing you did.
Thanks,
Manoah Marton


----------



## terd ferguson

Manoah Marton said:


> Could you post some pictures of your convicts? Are they breeding?
> I LOVE your tank. It's amazing that you were able to house such aggressive species together.
> If I was EVER to get a HUGE tank (like yours) I would do the same thing you did.
> Thanks,
> Manoah Marton


I've been promising to get some new pics and a video up. I've just been busy with my two old chevys. My bel air has been lowered and has a new interior. My pickup has been lowered and given a facelift.

The convicts don't breed in the big tank. I have a seperate 29g with five adult convicts as well (2 males and 3 females) and many juveniles. When the juvies start piling up in there, I put them in the big tank. Some make it, most don't. There are probably a couple more cons in the big tank than in my sig line. I'm thinking of emptying that 29g of convicts and put them in the big tank so I can use the 29g for growing out some fry.


----------



## terd ferguson

All Your Parachromis R Belong To Us...

Parachromis friedrichsthalii "la ceiba"...

#1...









#1 in the tank...









#2...









#2 in the tank...









They don't look like much now. This is due to a super long car ride and rushed pictures. They looked awesome in the other tank and will again soon in my tank once they're settled. The big one is 6" and the smaller one is 4 1/2". I'm unsure of sex as I'm not as familiar with these as the other Parachromis. I'm not even sure if I have a male and a female. A little time will surely tell. Thanks for looking. :thumb:


----------



## marmot74

Thanks for this Thread Terd! If it wasn't for this I wouldn't have gotten a Jag and Loiselli and now they are my favorite 2 fish I have!


----------



## terd ferguson

marmot74 said:


> Thanks for this Thread Terd! If it wasn't for this I wouldn't have gotten a Jag and Loiselli and now they are my favorite 2 fish I have!


You're welcome. Thanks for following along.

A little update on the new guys. These guys are a little more active sooner than any other I've added. They are not shy in the least. Both the big and small jag pair have wrigglers along with the loisellis and the new guys are not in the least bit shy about swimming nearby. The big momma jag chased them away a few times, but it didn't intimidate them in the least, even being much smaller.

I'll give you a bit of a back story on these guys. I got them from a local aquarium club member. He got about 20 (large fry/sub juvie) from Ken Davis a few months ago. They have weeded themselves out to about 12. Two have grown into magnificent specimens and are most definately male and female at about 8" (he's keeping these). The two I got, I'm not so sure of the sex. All but the two big ones are very similar looking. I got the biggest one (not counting his two bigger 8" ones) hoping for a male and one I thought had the best coloration hoping for a female. My goal is, of course, to get a pair. We'll see how that works out.

Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

So Ken Davis has told me these are both males. He gave me an easy way to sex them. The males will have spots on the non paired fins. He also sent me some pics of the wild caught parents. Check 'em out...

Daddy...









Momma...


----------



## terd ferguson

Here is some more back story on the origins of these fish. Ken Davis strongly believes this to be a seperate race of Parachromis versus a sub race of loiselli or friedrichsthalii. Five of these fish were caught wild in a lagoon near La Ceiba in honduras. Since then, the lagoon was destroyed and a hotel was built on the site. Ken believes this to be the only location of these fish.

So, of the five caught, one was released. One pair went to Rusty Wesel and one pair went to Ken Davis. Jeff Rapps sells the fry from Rusty's pair. There are NO OTHER wild caught Parachromis sp. "la ceiba yellowhead" in existance in or out of the hobby. Ken Davis believes them to now be extinct in the wild due to the destruction of their only habitat. Reintroduction into Honduras is next to impossible due to introduced managuense outbreeding and outcompeting other species. Couple that with the horrible conditions in Honduras where these come from (think sewage, trash, sanitation), and reintroduction just won't work. So these are the only fish that we as hobbyists may ever get.

With that said, a male and female from Ken would be breeding brother and sister. Same with a male and female from Rapps. So now that I have two guaranteed males from Ken Davis, I need to find a female from Jeff Rapps' stock in order to breed quality (non inbred) fry. I would like to see these proliferated PROPERLY into the hobby. That is, always called Parachromis sp. "la ceiba yellowhead" and never interbred with other Parachromis. Ken hopes to have DNA extracted for a 100% confirmation of these fish being a seperate species.

With only two wild caught pairs supplying the entire hobby, the danger of something happening to one or all four is high. That is why my number one goal as a lover of all things Parachromis is to now get a hold of a Jeff Rapps female and breed them profusely and proliferate the fry. If anyone local to me can help with this, PM me.


----------



## chrispyweld

I have read on more than a few forums where other respected collectors/scientists have disagreed strongly with this theory. He has gotten a lot of flak from what I have read about his classification of some of the fish he has. Owning some F1 Davis stock myself I would love to find out the results of the DNA test too.

I'm not suggesting that we start interbreeding them or anything like that I'm just not getting too excite until I know for sure.

I will try to find the threads I read it was sometime ago, I think on the Cichlid Room Companion forum.

Would be cool though if it is indeed an new species but I think the majority of experts out there think it is a color variant of Freddie or Loiselli. If you do indeed end up with some Rapps' stock put me down for some offspring or anything extra you end up with and need to re home. I would love to spread the wealth too. Mine are a lot smaller but very cool all ready.


----------



## dwarfpike

Of course the experts can't agree if it is a Freddie or a Loiselli ...


----------



## terd ferguson

chrispyweld said:


> I have read on more than a few forums where other respected collectors/scientists have disagreed strongly with this theory. He has gotten a lot of flak from what I have read about his classification of some of the fish he has. Owning some F1 Davis stock myself I would love to find out the results of the DNA test too.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that we start interbreeding them or anything like that I'm just not getting too excite until I know for sure.
> 
> I will try to find the threads I read it was sometime ago, I think on the Cichlid Room Companion forum.


Here's exactly what Ken has to say in my thread on MFK...



fishfarm said:


> FYI, I don't agree with the name changes people keep giving these, started as loiselli, then fredrichsthalli, call them Parachromis sp La Ceiba yellow head and never cross them with domestic fish, eventually I'll get someone to do DNA on them (Maybe Mitchi). I'm positive they are a new species. I want them to be discribed as Parachromis warreni after the man who collected all 7 of the wild fish that were ever collected. Ken


and this...



fishfarm said:


> This stoy has it's own life, Warren Van Varrick has caught a grand total of 7 adult Parachromis sp. La Ceiba in a small isolated lagoon about 3 miles north of La Ceiba, Honduras, It has now been destroyed. Only 5 wild fish exist in the hobby, My pair, Rusty Wessel's pair and a male Warren kept. That's it, if others claim to have wild fish, they are full of sh*t. According to Rusty Wessel they caught a similar Parachromis species in the Rio Danto 15-20 years ago, it was never bred and is not in the hobby, the Rio Danto is about 5 miles north of where this fish was actually collected, they are not from there. He told Jeff Rapps to call the fry he raised from his pair P. loisellei "Rio Danto", Jeff sold a bunch under this name, which is incorrect and Jeff now sells them as P. fredrichstalli La ceiba. I have always thought these were a new species. Mo got some F1, fry from Rusty raised them up and took some of his spectacular pictures of them. Juan Miguel needed pictures of P. loisellei for cichlidae.com so Mo sent the pictures, Juan looked at them, knew they were not loisellei and ID'ed them as Fredrichstalli from the pictures, I then sent pictures of my pair, Rusty's pair and the biggest wild male Warren caught (Which was released, pic below) to Dr. Paul Loiselle and just asked what he thought. He said not loisellei, closer to fredichstalli, but different from both. No DNA or counts have been done on this fish to correctly ID it, it's all conjecture, but by some very knowlegeable people. Thus I sell them as Parachromis sp La Ceiba Yellow Head, which I hope anyone who breeds the F1 will call them also. I fear some will be crossed with domestic loisellei and fredrichstalli because of all the name mix-ups, they should be kept pure. Ken


http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231748

I say if Ken Davis, Rusty Wessel, and Paul V. Loiselle think it's different, that's good enough for me.


----------



## terd ferguson

chrispyweld said:


> Would be cool though if it is indeed an new species but I think the majority of experts out there think it is a color variant of Freddie or Loiselli. If you do indeed end up with some Rapps' stock put me down for some offspring or anything extra you end up with and need to re home. I would love to spread the wealth too. Mine are a lot smaller but very cool all ready.


So, how big are your two? Are either big enough to show the spots on their fins?

And yes, they are very, very cool. They just act "different" than the rest. They're very "jerky" but not in a shy or intimidated way. And they are really fast too. I also found out tonight that they LOVE shrimp. I cut up market shrimp into bite sized pieces for the big guys. The biggest of the "la ceibas" crammed three pieces in his mouth (and I fed them three times yesterday and twice today). Very aggressive in going for food.

I've got other F1 fishes, but these seem to be more "wild and untamed" at such a small size than any I've seen.


----------



## chrispyweld

Yeah I read about the Warreni name and that was a big deal because it didn't fall in line with the way these things are named because blah, blah, blah,... I don't remember I was looking for pictures and housing requirements, temperament info, Ect...

Interesting though when I bought them from Ken earlier this year he labeled them as Parachromis loisellei " La Ceiba" F1-Yellowheads. Seems he has even changed his views at least a little somewhere along the way.

Like I said we wont know for sure until the DNA test. For now per advice I have received here I am labeling them as you are Parachromis sp. "La Ceiba". It's probably the most responsible way to go.


----------



## terd ferguson

chrispyweld said:


> Yeah I read about the Warreni name and that was a big deal because it didn't fall in line with the way these things are named because blah, blah, blah,... I don't remember I was looking for pictures and housing requirements, temperament info, Ect...
> 
> Interesting though when I bought them from Ken earlier this year he labeled them as Parachromis loisellei " La Ceiba" F1-Yellowheads. Seems he has even changed his views at least a little somewhere along the way.
> 
> Like I said we wont know for sure until the DNA test. For now per advice I have received here I am labeling them as you are Parachromis sp. "La Ceiba". It's probably the most responsible way to go.


That's the way they named Parachromis loiselli, lol. I though whoever found it got to name it? I suggested "Parachromis terdfergusoni'. I don't they'll go for it.  

I'm very interested to see DNA results as well. That would settle it once and for all.


----------



## chrispyweld

Mine are about two inches. I have tried to get pics of them but they move like lightning!! They seem pretty skittish but the are the smallest fish in the tank too, not by much though. I went in on my order with another member who has two as well. I was at his place today helping him move a tank and has one that has grown much faster then the rest and both of his are larger than mine. They are the kings of that tank though and have claimed many guppy fry since they were first received from what I understand.

To be honest I'm a little unclear as to what to look for as far as sexing goes if you could fill me in I would appreciate it. 

I have a big package of "Krab" in my freezer. I can't eat the stuff myself. For my bachelor party I went fishing in the Puget Sound,wife was 8 months Prego, it was the respectable way to go. I caught this fish with a mean looking toothy grin. The Capt. said it was a Polk and no good for eating as they were scavengers and full of worms. "Only used for imitation crab" he told me. It's always in the ingredients too(shivers). Anyway I cut off chunks from time to time as treats and they go crazy for it.

They're are funny mine will nip anything that has it's back turned, even the 5in Cutteri. They remind me of Kato from the pink panther, not realy trying to harm the others just keeping their defenses keen. Heck I may have just come up with a name.


----------



## terd ferguson

chrispyweld said:


> Mine are about two inches. I have tried to get pics of them but they move like lightning!! They seem pretty skittish but the are the smallest fish in the tank too, not by much though. I went in on my order with another member who has two as well. I was at his place today helping him move a tank and has one that has grown much faster then the rest and both of his are larger than mine. They are the kings of that tank though and have claimed many guppy fry since they were first received from what I understand.
> 
> To be honest I'm a little unclear as to what to look for as far as sexing goes if you could fill me in I would appreciate it.
> 
> I have a big package of "Krab" in my freezer. I can't eat the stuff myself. For my bachelor party I went fishing in the Puget Sound,wife was 8 months Prego, it was the respectable way to go. I caught this fish with a mean looking toothy grin. The Capt. said it was a Polk and no good for eating as they were scavengers and full of worms. "Only used for imitation crab" he told me. It's always in the ingredients too(shivers). Anyway I cut off chunks from time to time as treats and they go crazy for it.
> 
> They're are funny mine will nip anything that has it's back turned, even the 5in Cutteri. They remind me of Kato from the pink panther, not realy trying to harm the others just keeping their defenses keen. Heck I may have just come up with a name.


Ken told me the males will have spots on the non paired fins. The part about keeping their defense keen is dead on with what I've seen.


----------



## chrispyweld

Like caudal, dorsal, and anal fins?


----------



## terd ferguson

chrispyweld said:


> Like caudal, dorsal, and anal fins?


Correct. :thumb:


----------



## chrispyweld

Seems I have at least one male then. I'll check the other out soon.


----------



## chrispyweld

Looks like I have a male and a female so far. I could be wrong, time will tell.


----------



## terd ferguson

chrispyweld said:


> Looks like I have a male and a female so far. I could be wrong, time will tell.


I'm jealous.


----------



## chrispyweld

Yeah but all I have is the 125g and I wasn't looking for breeding activity now. How long before the hit spawning size?

You have me thinking that getting a Rapps' female is the way to go too. If they are as rare as mentioned it's the responsible thing to do. Maybe I should start saving for a 75g and move the Texas and what ever else I have that will work into it and dedicate this one to breeding.


----------



## terd ferguson

chrispyweld said:


> Yeah but all I have is the 125g and I wasn't looking for breeding activity now. How long before the hit spawning size?
> 
> You have me thinking that getting a Rapps' female is the way to go too. If they are as rare as mentioned it's the responsible thing to do. Maybe I should start saving for a 75g and move the Texas and what ever else I have that will work into it and dedicate this one to breeding.


One thing's for sure, the breeding stock of these "la ceibas" is miniscule compared to others. All that can be done to propagate them is a good thing. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

Parachromis loiselli with fry...









See the little fella? There are several this size scattered around the tank in different nooks and crannies...









The battery died in my good camera again. These were taken with my old camera. I took more, but they sucked. I've really got to break down and buy a rechargeable battery for my good camera instead of using disposable batteries. More pics soon, I promise, lol. opcorn:


----------



## Big Vine

Nice content in those pics---especially the first one---but that shoddy quality is inexcusable (just kidding!). 
And yes, get proper batteries...those disposables only last for maybe a dozen pics or so. :lol:

Don't come back until you've rectified this situation! (again, you know I'm joking, right?)  
BV opcorn:

P.S. Oh, and in case I haven't made it clear, I was joking... :dancing:


----------



## terd ferguson

Big Vine said:


> Nice content in those pics---especially the first one---but that shoddy quality is inexcusable (just kidding!).
> And yes, get proper batteries...those disposables only last for maybe a dozen pics or so. :lol:
> 
> Don't come back until you've rectified this situation! (again, you know I'm joking, right?)
> BV opcorn:
> 
> P.S. Oh, and in case I haven't made it clear, I was joking... :dancing:


OK, I'm back.  I took these last night, still the old camera though.

2 male Parachromis sp. "la ceiba yellowhead"









Same 2 "la ceibas" with small female Parachromis loiselli









Female Parachromis motaguense









Male Parachromis dovii, now well over 7". The true colors aren't showing up in this photo.









Large Parachromis managuense pair with fry









Smaller Parachromis managuense pair with fry









And a tankshot


----------



## illy-d

What's that dark browny red fuzzy stuff on the logs and pots some sort of short growing moss?


----------



## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> What's that dark browny red fuzzy stuff on the logs and pots some sort of short growing moss?


It's algae. I have promised Ken Davis some fry so I leave the lights on so they won't get eaten at night. I've got to get the fry big enough to ship and then the lighting schedule can get back to normal. I did the same thing the last time the loisellis spawned. But a couple of days or so before they would've been ready to go, they all disappeared.

When the lights stay on, the algea grows. Heavy feedings don't help matters.  When the lights are on a more normal schedule, the algae recedes.


----------



## illy-d

Wow - that's thick!!! It looks pretty good though...


----------



## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> Wow - that's thick!!! It looks pretty good though...


I guess, I don't like it much. I'd rather it not be there. But it's not hurting anything.


----------



## Big Vine

I especially love that full-tank shot which shows the aquascaping you've done...I think it looks great. Gives a neat perspective on things, although I'm sure there's no substitute for seeing it firsthand, in person! 8) 
BV


----------



## terd ferguson

Big Vine said:


> I especially love that full-tank shot which shows the aquascaping you've done...I think it looks great. Gives a neat perspective on things, although I'm sure there's no substitute for seeing it firsthand, in person! 8)
> BV


Thanks a lot. I love the plants. You're right, pictures don't really do it justice. Come on up and check it out. You should see people's faces who think a 55g is a "big" tank when they see mine for the first time.


----------



## Big Vine

I can believe it!
In the not-so-distant past I also used to think a 55 gal. tank was on the 'large end' of things, but now I'm of the opinion that my larger 75 gal. isn't all that 'large' either. I definitely can't see my oscar being kept in anything smaller, that's for sure! Only tanks on my horizon from now on will start at 6-foot 125 gal.+ 



terd ferguson said:


> You're right, pictures don't really do it justice. Come on up and check it out.


Thanks man, I just might end up doing that someday! :fish: 
You happen to be anywhere near Raleigh? I've got family there, so a visit up that way just might be in the cards sometime.

In the meantime, I'm more than happy to enjoy the pics/vids...thanks for sharing. opcorn: 
BV


----------



## terd ferguson

Big Vine said:


> I can believe it!
> In the not-so-distant past I also used to think a 55 gal. tank was on the 'large end' of things, but now I'm of the opinion that my larger 75 gal. isn't all that 'large' either. I definitely can't see my oscar being kept in anything smaller, that's for sure! Only tanks on my horizon from now on will start at 6-foot 125 gal.+
> 
> 
> 
> terd ferguson said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're right, pictures don't really do it justice. Come on up and check it out.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks man, I just might end up doing that someday! :fish:
> You happen to be anywhere near Raleigh? I've got family there, so a visit up that way just might be in the cards sometime.
> 
> In the meantime, I'm more than happy to enjoy the pics/vids...thanks for sharing. opcorn:
> BV
Click to expand...

I'm near Charlotte, it's about 2.5 hours SW of Raleigh. And thanks for the kind words. :thumb:


----------



## wolf13

actually looks pretty natural, like the vids taken from some of the native habitats. I love your RTM female :thumb: you don't realize how big that tank is looking at a picture until you sit back and think about how big those oscars really are. Something i've been meaning to ask, how big are those flower pots and do you find your cave spawners sticking to them or also using "natural" caves, such as driftwood or rock nooks?

and yeah, I realized how small a 55g is trying to aquascape one, even my 55g 18 wide is just so limited in space it feels small.


----------



## illy-d

What are the dimensions on that bad boy again?


----------



## terd ferguson

wolf13 said:


> actually looks pretty natural, like the vids taken from some of the native habitats. I love your RTM female :thumb: you don't realize how big that tank is looking at a picture until you sit back and think about how big those oscars really are. Something i've been meaning to ask, how big are those flower pots and do you find your cave spawners sticking to them or also using "natural" caves, such as driftwood or rock nooks?
> 
> and yeah, I realized how small a 55g is trying to aquascape one, even my 55g 18 wide is just so limited in space it feels small.


The bigger strawberry pot the loisellis use has an 8" mouth. The smaller one the motas use has a 6" mouth. The loisellis and motas lay their eggs inside the pots. The big jag pair lay their eggs on the slate base of some driftwood. Sometimes they put some onto the dirftwood too. The smaller jag pair put their eggs on the back of the tank the first time and have used a clay pot "saucer" for their eggs this time. I think they switched places because last time (their first spawn), 95% of their fry was stolen by the loisellis.

Thanks also for the compliments. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

illy-d said:


> What are the dimensions on that bad boy again?


It's 8' long x 3' wide x 25" tall. It's 358 US Gallons plus a 50 US Gallons wet/dry sump.


----------



## terd ferguson

I just got word from my local freddy source. I'll be picking up at least six small juveniles, all around 2" or less. These originally came from Ken Davis. I'll grow these out in a seperate tank until they're large enough to be sexed in order to get a pair. When they hit 5" or so, I'll add them to the big tank.

Also, I'm waiting for Ken Davis to get some of Rapps' "la ceiba" fry. It shouldn't be too much longer. I'll get a few of these so I can get a genetically different female for good breeding. It would be a few months before these will be big enough to be sexed to get a female to go with which ever male I decide to keep out of the two I currently have.

So, with the above in mind, I'll have to make a move or two to make these additions possible. The Texas will be gone as soon as I find a good home for him. If you remember, he wasn't part of the long term plans but still served his purpose well. One of the male "la ceibas" will go as well. I can't get rid of the Oscars, they're my wife's favorites. This pretty much leaves my smaller managuense pair as the only option for someone to move. I don't "need" two pairs of jags, as much as I like them. And moving them will allow me to have all six (if you consider the "la ceibas" a seperate species) of the Parachromis.

So, I'll be moving at least two fishes for sure, probably four in order to add three.


----------



## chrispyweld

That will be a sight to behold.

If you end up with any extra females from the Rapps' stock let me know I will happily buy them from you and pay to have them shipped when the time comes. I am liking my two more and more every day but i am lean towards to the idea that I have two males now. The "female" may just be a sub dominant male. Still not 100% but i think I'm right.

You'll have to send me some of that "magic water" too. :wink:


----------



## terd ferguson

chrispyweld said:


> That will be a sight to behold.
> 
> If you end up with any extra females from the Rapps' stock let me know I will happily buy them from you and pay to have them shipped when the time comes. I am liking my two more and more every day but i am lean towards to the idea that I have two males now. The "female" may just be a sub dominant male. Still not 100% but i think I'm right.


Ken Davis sold out of all his "la ceiba" fry. That's why he's getting some from Jeff. But, it works better for me this way. Ken's shipping is way cheaper for me due to geography. Even if you do get a male and female out of your two, they'd be brother and sister. For good breeding, you'd definately want different genetics. I'm thinking ten or so fry should guarantee me at least one female. It'll take a while for the fry to grow large enough to be sexed, but if I get more than one female, I'll hook you up. :thumb:


----------



## chrispyweld

Thanks I know it will be some time but that gives me a chance to decide what route to take.


----------



## mainganio

can you post a picture of what the tank looks like now and the fish that are in it. thanks :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

mainganio said:


> can you post a picture of what the tank looks like now and the fish that are in it. thanks :thumb:


The stock list is in my sig line. There's a picture from a few days ago a page or two back. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

Well, I put the Texas and smaller jag pair up for sale. This is in preperation for the coming freddy pair and "la ceiba" female.


----------



## mainganio

ok thanks terd ferguson


----------



## mainganio

in the photo of your tank a couple of pages back. 
what are the three fish to the left hand side of the oscars? :wink:


----------



## Drowned

terd ferguson said:


> freddy pair


What are these?  I'm not familiar with the US common names of fish.


----------



## terd ferguson

mainganio said:


> in the photo of your tank a couple of pages back.
> what are the three fish to the left hand side of the oscars? :wink:


The three small fishes to the left of the Oscars are the two "la ceiba" males and the small new female loiselli.


----------



## terd ferguson

Drowned said:


> terd ferguson said:
> 
> 
> 
> freddy pair
> 
> 
> 
> What are these?  I'm not familiar with the US common names of fish.
Click to expand...

Sorry, it's Parachromis friedrichsthalii. :thumb:


----------



## wolf13

page 2, can't have that.

so how are the La ceiba's settling in? aggression levels showing? Get the freddy's yet?

I was shocked last weekend, I visited a shop back home I seldom get too (far side of town, and closed on sundays) and they had an 8 -10 inch jag. gorgous coloring and marking, but both eyes were cataracted over. Didn't really get to talk to the shop owner, but I was curious if this was a common issue with Jags.


----------



## terd ferguson

wolf13 said:


> page 2, can't have that.
> 
> so how are the La ceiba's settling in? aggression levels showing? Get the freddy's yet?
> 
> I was shocked last weekend, I visited a shop back home I seldom get too (far side of town, and closed on sundays) and they had an 8 -10 inch jag. gorgous coloring and marking, but both eyes were cataracted over. Didn't really get to talk to the shop owner, but I was curious if this was a common issue with Jags.


The "la ceibas" are doing great. I will be looking to rehome one in the near future and replace him with a female. The only aggression I see with them is when feeding. It's not directed towards tankmates, but towards the food. They are quick to go after food.

As far as the jags and eye issues, I've not seen any that weren't the result of injury.

Also, I'm still looking for a home for the smaller jag pair and the texas. Nobody local has expressed any interest. :-? I don't really want to ship them.

I set up a new 55g. I plan to put my Convict breeding colony and a pair of HRP's along with my blind pleco, an L14 pleco and a baby synodontis in there. That will empty out two smaller 30g's. I'll use one of those to raise fry in for Ken Davis and the other to grow out the small freddys I'll be picking up soon.


----------



## marmot74

Hey Terd,

What kind of plants are those in your tank and whats your substrate? Swords? Any issues with the boys chowing down on it?


----------



## KC

What are you using for background? I remember the 1st pics of tank when you 1st set it up and it didn't have a background but appears to have one now. How did you accomplish that with tank set up?


----------



## terd ferguson

marmot74 said:


> Hey Terd,
> 
> What kind of plants are those in your tank and whats your substrate? Swords? Any issues with the boys chowing down on it?


The big plants are Amazon Swords. The smaller ones, I'm not sure. I got them from a local aquarium club member. They are just clippings from his planted tank. The substrate is 3M ColorQuartz SGrade in black. Nobody eats the plants, but they do dig some up from time to time. It's not really that big of a deal though. Maybe one of the small ones get uprooted each week.


----------



## terd ferguson

KC said:


> What are you using for background? I remember the 1st pics of tank when you 1st set it up and it didn't have a background but appears to have one now. How did you accomplish that with tank set up?


The back of the tank is black acrylic. The way it looks now is because of hair algae growth. I got it from leaving the lights on, lol. The fry love it though, they feed on it.


----------



## KC

terd ferguson said:


> The back of the tank is black acrylic. The way it looks now is because of hair algae growth. I got it from leaving the lights on, lol. The fry love it though, they feed on it.


Love the effect, I couldn't tell from the pictures it was algae. It gave the illusion of a custom background job, great effect.


----------



## terd ferguson

KC said:


> terd ferguson said:
> 
> 
> 
> The back of the tank is black acrylic. The way it looks now is because of hair algae growth. I got it from leaving the lights on, lol. The fry love it though, they feed on it.
> 
> 
> 
> Love the effect, I couldn't tell from the pictures it was algae. It gave the illusion of a custom background job, great effect.
Click to expand...

Lolz. For a truly unique custom background that looks like it could cost hundreds of dollars, just leave your lights on 24/7 for about three months. But you'd better have a UV sterilizer to keep the water clear if you want to see anything. 

Also, there's a small update to report. I found a buyer for the smaller jag pair. A local club member is making room for them in his 75 tank fishroom. I hate to see them go because they are really good looking, maybe even with more beauty potential than my big ones. But, I know they're going to a great home and this will allow me to add the freddys to make all six Parachromis. I'm now seeking a good home for the extra "la ceiba" male.

I have moved the inhabitants of a 30g into a newly setup 55g. These are 3 HRP's (one breeding pair and an extra male), a very small jag, L14 pleco, and a Synodontis hybrid. That 30g will soon contain as many loiselli fry as I can catch to grow out and send on to Ken Davis. I'll also soon be moving my convict breeding colony into that same 55g so that the six small freddys can go into the other 30g. I'll keep the freddys in there until they reach about 4" to 5" and can determine sex. I'll then take the best male and female and add them to the big tank. The other four will be passed on to local club guys.

I also picked up a couple of other tanks in the last couple of weeks. All total, I got the 55g and stand, a 40g long, and a 40g Eclipse with built in filter and light. I got these for free from a buddy getting out of the hobby. The 55g is set up as described above. I'll build a stand to hold the two 40g's (one on top and one on the bottom) soon. I don't know what I'll put in them yet. Maybe the Texas will find a nice home in one for a while. Nobody local is interested in him. 8)


----------



## terd ferguson

I wanted to add a couple of other thoughts as well. First, the dovii. He is growing like a weed. I've been cramming market shrimp and Hikari Cichlid Gold down his gullet as often as he'll eat, lol. His coloration is becoming more gold. The dark coloration that usually means subdominance is fading. Along with that, his confidence is growing. My best guess is he's at least 7" now. His atitude is great with regards to his tankmates. The best way I can describe his personality is utterly confident. He is becoming very personable and interactive with me. He seems very curious about the world outside the tank. He likes to check me out whenever I get close to the tank. He also seems fascinated by my little chihuahua when I hold him up in front of the tank. He's grown a couple of teeth on his bottom jaw. He just seems to get cooler all the time.

The two "la ceibas" are also doing well. Their personality remains much the same as they've grown. As I reported earlier, they seem more "wild" than other F1 fishes I have. They behave so differently than the others. I don't really know how else to describe it. But they are a couple of very cool fish for sure.

Everything else is still going "swimmingly".  Things have been hectic around here lately non fish wise. I'll get some fresh pics up soon. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

Slightly off topic, but I lost my biggest oldest fish yesterday. It may be hard to believe, but this is a Comet goldfish that was 13 years old. Cause of death is unknown, but I have to assume it's a natural old age situation. All other fish in the pond are fine. I always hate to lose one.

R.I.P.


----------



## roman_back

i cant seem to get a good coloration photo of my dovi.. he has purple's and blues in his fins and a green and gold spangles on his gill plate. he has a mouth FULL of teeth, id say he's around 10-11 inches. him and my large male myan will puff up and open their mouths at each other, havent locked jaws yet, but i think that agression there is due to the myan protecting his fry.. my myans spawn like clockwork every 3 weeks. i could almost set my watch by it.


----------



## Snakes to Cichs

Sorry to hear about your Goldfish bro. That thing was freakin huge!!!


----------



## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> i cant seem to get a good coloration photo of my dovi.. he has purple's and blues in his fins and a green and gold spangles on his gill plate. he has a mouth FULL of teeth, id say he's around 10-11 inches. him and my large male myan will puff up and open their mouths at each other, havent locked jaws yet, but i think that agression there is due to the myan protecting his fry.. my myans spawn like clockwork every 3 weeks. i could almost set my watch by it.


I often have the same problem with pictures. I think the secret to good fish photography lies with a remote flash above the tank. At least that's what Aquamojo says and he takes some awesome photos.



Snakes to Cichs said:


> Sorry to hear about your Goldfish bro. That thing was freakin huge!!!


Thanks for the kind words.


----------



## terd ferguson

Well, the smaller jag pair along with the Texas went to their new home yesterday. A buddy in the local aquarium club has a fish room with 75 tanks. He got them and will give them a great home. I guess they were bigger than I thought. Check them out, they're in five gallon buckets and stretch accross the entire bottom. The bottom is a little over 10" in diameter.

Male...









Female...









Now, I am actively searching for a female dovii and a female "la ceiba". If local sources do not pan out, I'll get them from Ken Davis. I am also waiting for the freddys, shouldn't be too much longer until they're here. Again, they'll have to grow a little before going in the big tank. I am now seeking a home for the extra "la ceiba" male. I will have moved four fish to make room for four more. And as nice as those jags were, I think the additions will be worth the moves. :thumb:


----------



## marmot74

Hey Terd,

What GH, KH and PH do you keep your large tank at? Just curious since you get such good results.

Mike


----------



## terd ferguson

marmot74 said:


> Hey Terd,
> 
> What GH, KH and PH do you keep your large tank at? Just curious since you get such good results.
> 
> Mike


PH is 7. GH and KH, I have absolutely no idea, I don't test those levels. It's however it comes out of the tap from the city water supply. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

The jags and Texas are doing well in their new home. Another buddy is coming tomorrow to get the extra male "la ceiba". If you recall, I made these moves in order to add a pair of freddys. They are still with a buddy, but will be coming very soon. I'm still looking for a female "la ceiba" from Jef Rapps' stock for more diverse genetics. High shipping charges have kept me from getting some from Jeff. A female dovii is still in the works as well.

Everything else is still going along just fine. I've still got 4 or 5 juvies (probably managuense) well over 2" still doing well. They are getting some courage and now come out of hiding from time to time to feed on bits and pieces that go to the bottom. Breeding is still as it has been for all pairs. The fry disappear a lot faster than in the past though. No pair has had a significant number of fry last longer than a week in a while.

Anyway, here's a couple of pics that turned out ok.

Parachromis dovii male, about 7"+. Just a hint of the awesome colors he has. When he swims under the lights just right, WOW. 










Parachromis sp. "la ceiba yellowhead" male, about 6". Very awesome and very wild.










Tank shot.


----------



## KC

Just keeping tabs on this thread, what happened with the grammodes? I thought I read that you got some or were getting some but there is no mention in your sig.


----------



## terd ferguson

KC said:


> Just keeping tabs on this thread, what happened with the grammodes? I thought I read that you got some or were getting some but there is no mention in your sig.


I got one and kept him for around 8 months until I got a dovii. The dovii fulfilled everything the grammodes did and then some. So I sent the grammodes to a buddy's tank to make room for more Parachromis. I'm still waiting on my local source with the friedrichsthaliis. But, at least he's growing them out for me for free, lol. Other than that, everything's still going the same as always. They're on the same basic breeding schedule, but the fry do not last as long as they once did. That said, there are still four or five getting some good size. There are also around ten more on the way to getting some size to them.

Basically, it's all routine. Almost boring, lol.


----------



## Chinoy

Hi Im just responding to the first post. Lost intrest when it turned into an argument on page 2.

Yes you can keep a lot of aggressive fish together. Without any body getting hurt.

Here is what I have in my tank with Aprox sizes.

1. Green Jaw terrors x 2 6.5" each
2. Jaguar 1 x 5" and 1 x 3"
3. Red Zebra X4 Two males and two femals 4-5" each
4. Jewel Fish x 4 both breeding. And the fry are doing well.
5. 4 x Convicts 3-4" each
6. 3 Yellow Labs 4-5" each
7. Two Rainbow Sharks
8. Two Fire mouths x 4" each
9. 2 x Venus Morphs.

Cleaning Crew
8. Two Pelco's (Sucker Fish)
9. Two Zebra Loaches

Everybody gets along fine. The trick is to feed them often. Right temps, clean water, And lots of hiding places (Though I found his tank pics to show none). Mine have tons and tons of hiding place.

My Jags love to take rides on the Internal filter. Its a huge 1500 Ltr/Hr Boyu unit.
He will sit on top of the head and then dive into the stream. And shoot across the tank. 
He will then turn around and swim back to the head fighting the flow all the way.


----------



## terd ferguson

I haven't been on much lately. Things are still going very well. Breeding has slowed way down though. They must be on some kind of cycle. It has happened before where spawning didn't take place for two or three months. After that, it was more than ever. So, I'm sure they'll start back up soon enough.

There are still fishes alive that were spawned many months ago. They are more than well on their way to long term survival.

Here's a couple of pics I took tonight that turned out ok.

Parachromis dovii male, 8"++









Guapotes for days...









Tank shot. How many guapotes can you count?









Cat: "If only I could figure out how to get in there and get me some feeeesh..."
Fishes: "If only I could figure out how to get outta here and eat that cat..."









You can click on the pics for a larger version. Thanks again for looking. :thumb:


----------



## cichlidfeesh

You have some really beautiful fish there. It's always awesome to see those heavyweights living together! I love your big jaguar, great looking fish


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## terd ferguson

cichlidfeesh said:


> You have some really beautiful fish there. It's always awesome to see those heavyweights living together! I love your big jaguar, great looking fish


Thanks a lot.


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## cichlidfeesh

Oh sorry.. I forgot to mention I really like your aquascaping. It is apparent that you have devoted a lot of time and effort into this tank. I am confused a little bit on your tank though. Forgive me, I havenâ€™t found the time to look through all 57 pages, but I was wondering how many gallons is the tank on the previous page? I noticed you said something about 190 gallons in your original post, and also it was different tank. In your Sig it says 360g, so is the original photo your 190g and the long tank on the previous page your 360g?


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## terd ferguson

cichlidfeesh said:


> Oh sorry.. I forgot to mention I really like your aquascaping. It is apparent that you have devoted a lot of time and effort into this tank. I am confused a little bit on your tank though. Forgive me, I havenâ€™t found the time to look through all 57 pages, but I was wondering how many gallons is the tank on the previous page? I noticed you said something about 190 gallons in your original post, and also it was different tank. In your Sig it says 360g, so is the original photo your 190g and the long tank on the previous page your 360g?


A couple of the current stock along with some others traded off in the past started off in a 55g a little over two years ago. After a couple of months, I got the 190g. This is the tank you see on the first page of this thread. After a year or so in the 190g, I got the 360g. That's the tank you see on the last page. It's been running about a year now. I update my sig line when there are changes.

If you ever get some free time, check out the entire thread. There's a lot of good info from me and a lot of others. It applies to any kind of setup, not just large tanks. There were several other species (and some decent pics of big fishes) at one time or another. I ended up moving them or trading to make room for more Parachromis. Don't mind the jibber jabber in the first couple of pages. Long story, but some will never agree that what I'm doing can work long term. They don't post much in this thread anymore though. With that said and with this kind of setup and stocking, there are no guarantees. I've seen too many horror stories and not very many success stories.

****EDITED TO ADD***
Thanks for the compliments. :thumb: *


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## edburress

Beautiful tank, and nice collection of Parachromis too :thumb:


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## terd ferguson

edburress said:


> Beautiful tank, and nice collection of Parachromis too :thumb:


Thanks for the kind words. :wink:


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## roman_back

my male dovi is colored very much like yours... i just cant get the blues and purples in his fins to show like u did.. i hope to get some photos up soon its been too long since *** posted here.


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## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> my male dovi is colored very much like yours... i just cant get the blues and purples in his fins to show like u did.. i hope to get some photos up soon its been too long since I've posted here.


The picture I posted does nothing to show his true colors. When he swims under the light just right, he looks amazing. I look forward to seeing yours too.


----------



## vaypourus

Well. I just spent 3 hours reading this thread from page one.

I think you should become and awesomeologist.


----------



## lostnight

Been a while since I checked in on this thread, looks like I everything is going nicely. I am jealous, which that aquarium and fish were in my fishroom. :drooling:

I did buy 4 young parachromis at the ACA convention this past weekend. At first they were labeled as Loseillis, but later that weekend Dr. Paul Loisselle informed the seller that he thought they were Freddies. So they were relabeled as such. They are from Honuras. Mo was telling be about them, I thought he mentioned the name yellow heads when describing them, and he showed me pics of his on his cell phone. They looked awesome, hope mine turn out as nice as your's and Mo's.


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## chrispyweld

*lostnight*
If they are the "Yellow Heads" then there is still an ongoing debate about the correct name for them. Although that is a pretty reputable source. There have been many discussions but to my knowledge they have not been scientifically classified yet so you will hear them referred to by both Freddies and Loisellis.

Great fish I have a couple in the six inch range and they are looking great. Very predatory but not overly aggressive in my experience.


----------



## lostnight

Oops, I spelled Honduras wrong. I guess calling them "Yellow Heads" won't hurt. Weren't there some green parachromis that were also very predatory looking? There was debate about them also.


----------



## terd ferguson

For the record, and from what I know from talking to Ken Davis, the fish in question are a seperate species of Parachromis. They are being called (and should be to avoid confusion) Parachromis sp. la ceiba "yellowhead". These were collected from a lagoon which has since been destroyed. No others have ever been collected and a hotel has been built on the site of the lagoon. Five live wild specimans were collected. Rusty Wessell has one pair and fry are sold through Jeff Rapps. Ken Davis had the other pair, but the female has since passed. He still has the male.

It is my opinion that these should be kept pure until their true genetic status can be confirmed. They should not be interbred or hybridized. If one was to want a good breeding pair, you should have a male from Ken Davis and a female from Jeff Rapps (or vice versa). All the fry from Ken would be brother and sister, and likewise for all the fry from Jeff. But, it is more difficult now that Ken has lost his breeding female.

I have a guaranteed male from Ken Davis, now about 7". I had another roughly the same size, but once it was determined to be male also, I got it to another hardcore Parachromis buddy. I am seeking a good female from Jeff Rapps. I was hoping to find one semi-locally, but have not had much luck. It really sucks to pay $60 shipping for a single $10 fish from New Jersey. Ken was telling me a few weeks ago that he was going to get some of Jeff Rapps' fry to raise up to get another genetically diverse female for a good breeding pair.

Basically, the controversy comes down to this. Are these a new species of Parachromis? Or, are these a geographically different race of loiselli or friedrichsthalii? Or are these a naturally occurring Parachromis hybrid?

From what I know and have seen, they look much more freddy than loiselli. They are also much more "wild" acting than any of my other F1 Parachromis. They are more "hunter" than "pet". They are very beautiful. For sexing, only the males will have spots on the dorsal and anal fins. I feel like they are indeed a seperate species. But that's just my opinion.

This is a pic of Ken Davis' wild caught male...









And here is Ken's deceased wild caught female...









Here's one of the F1 males when I first got the two...









Here's the F1 male I still have from two months ago...


----------



## chrispyweld

From what I have read on the subject Ken is about the only person who believes these to be a new species. He has actually been criticized very heavily for stating that they are a new species on many other cites. He gave them a "Scientific" when first discovered that was never adopted.

This will be one of those conversations that takes years to get answered and will just get people worked up for years I'm guessing.

If DR. Loisselle doesn't think they are Loisselli that rules them out as far as I am concerned.


----------



## lostnight

I'm not sure if mine are from Ken Davis or Jeff Rapps. The guy who sold them to me was named Allen, he was from the UK, don't know if he presently lives there or not. Mo found him there so he could sell me some.


----------



## terd ferguson

chrispyweld said:


> From what I have read on the subject Ken is about the only person who believes these to be a new species. He has actually been criticized very heavily for stating that they are a new species on many other cites. He gave them a "Scientific" when first discovered that was never adopted.
> 
> This will be one of those conversations that takes years to get answered and will just get people worked up for years I'm guessing.
> 
> If DR. Loisselle doesn't think they are Loisselli that rules them out as far as I am concerned.


I admire Dr. Loiselle very much and his opinion holds a lot of weight as far as I'm concerned. This goes for Ken Davis as well. I've sent Paul an email asking his opinion. I'll post his response. The bottom line is that until proper DNA tests are done, we'll never know. This has been something Ken has talked about, but it hasn't been done and who knows if/when it will be.

Until then, we can all agree that these are awesome fish. I'll try and get a good pic tonight of my male. And for the record, I'm not worked up about their identity. I'm just trying to err on the side of caution in case they are indeed a new species. If they are (and this is a big if), they should be called by a seperate name and not allowed to hybridize. If they are a new species, there are now only 4 wild caught specimans still living. Again, if they are a new species, responsible breeding should be done to allow these to proliferate in the hobby and maybe one day be reintroduced into the wild.

Remember, these are all "if's". I don't know what the answer is for sure, I just know they are different. And I have two seperate races of F1 loiselli (confirmed by Dr. Loiselle as two seperate races). They are definately not loiselli, in either body shape or colration/pattern. They look closer to friedrichsthalii, but again, still different.


----------



## lostnight

Yeah, I agree with what you said. I'm trying to figure out the origin of the 4 I bought. I asked Mo on a thread at MFK if he knows. I got 3 little ones and one large (relatively speaking) one, so likely 1 male, 3 females, in a 55 gowing out, hopefully it will keep a young breeding pair for a while, that's a ways off though. I also have another 55 that is very lightly populated, I can use that for another group of 4 with the same 1/3 ratio. Once I find out if my 4 are from KD or JR, I'll just order the next 4 from the other source, then swap the males. Sounds like a plan if I can get the info on the origin of mine.


----------



## chrispyweld

I was not saying that you were worked up. My apologies if it came across that way.

I fully agree with you about not letting them cross. Responsible breeding is of course the prudent course of action. And agreed, they are great fish.

I was just making a comment about the scientific name, which people tend to get upset about. (reclassification, misclassifications, yada yada yada...)

They have made the shift to friedrichsthalii pretty much across the board now. They were original listed as Loiselli by Ken and Freddies by Jeff but they appear to be Freddies across the board now so it looks like we got one out of the way. :lol:


----------



## lostnight

chrispyweld said:


> They were original listed as Loiselli by Ken and Freddies by Jeff but they appear to be Freddies across the board now so it looks like we got one out of the way. :lol:


Well, the 4 I bought at the ACA were labeled as loisellis on Thursday and Friday, but the labels changed to Friedrichsthali by Saturday. So by using this logic, I can assume that the ones I ordered were from Ken Davis stock, so I should order the next 4 from Jeff Rapps.


----------



## terd ferguson

chrispyweld said:


> I was not saying that you were worked up. My apologies if it came across that way.
> 
> I fully agree with you about not letting them cross. Responsible breeding is of course the prudent course of action. And agreed, they are great fish.
> 
> I was just making a comment about the scientific name, which people tend to get upset about. (reclassification, misclassifications, yada yada yada...)
> 
> They have made the shift to friedrichsthalii pretty much across the board now. They were original listed as Loiselli by Ken and Freddies by Jeff but they appear to be Freddies across the board now so it looks like we got one out of the way. :lol:


I understand totally. I didn't think you were accusingme of getting worked up. I just didn't want you to think I'm taking a "hard stand" as to their identity. Until there's proof either way, it's still up in the air as far as I'm concerned. I mean, we are talking about two different opinions. Neither of the two (or three-loiselli?, freddy? or new species?) opinions is based in fact, just experience. I have a hard time deciding who to believe because the opinions being offered come from people I trust and admire and at the same time are different.

DNA tests would settle this matter once and for all. It was done with the EBJD's.


----------



## terd ferguson

Here's two shots from tonight...


----------



## lostnight

Very nice, love the darkened dorsal with blue tips.


----------



## terd ferguson

vaypourus said:


> Well. I just spent 3 hours reading this thread from page one.
> 
> I think you should become and awesomeologist.


I glossed right over this with all the la ceiba talk. That's funny right there.  Thanks.


----------



## joeyballz

I love the yellow heads. I have 2 from Ken Davis. There were sold to me as Loiselle so I prefer that name over Freddie, so now I just call them yellow heads. I met Dr Loiselli this past spring and asked the same question and he's certianly on the side of Freddies. I asked Aquamojo some stuff in an email about these guys last week and this was his response (I only read this page of the thread so hopefully this is new info):


> The "Yellow Head" is actually a variant of P. Fredrichsthali...originally thought to be Loiselle. The vertical bars in the fish proved this to be the case. Loiselle do not have the bars. The Yellow Head has been added to the ACA CARES conservation list recently. This done primarily becasue of that "loss of habitat" that you referenced.
> 
> Michi Tobler recently spoke at the convention about species variants...primarily Archocentrus, but also made refereence to the Yellow Head. the fish he photographed were not caught in the same river system as the ones we brought back from Honduras. So perhaps the fish is in other water sheds.


----------



## terd ferguson

joeyballz said:


> I love the yellow heads. I have 2 from Ken Davis. There were sold to me as Loiselle so I prefer that name over Freddie, so now I just call them yellow heads. I met Dr Loiselli this past spring and asked the same question and he's certianly on the side of Freddies. I asked Aquamojo some stuff in an email about these guys last week and this was his response (I only read this page of the thread so hopefully this is new info):
> 
> 
> 
> The "Yellow Head" is actually a variant of P. Fredrichsthali...originally thought to be Loiselle. The vertical bars in the fish proved this to be the case. Loiselle do not have the bars. The Yellow Head has been added to the ACA CARES conservation list recently. This done primarily becasue of that "loss of habitat" that you referenced.
> 
> Michi Tobler recently spoke at the convention about species variants...primarily Archocentrus, but also made refereence to the Yellow Head. the fish he photographed were not caught in the same river system as the ones we brought back from Honduras. So perhaps the fish is in other water sheds.
Click to expand...

I have heard tell that other specimans were captured in another water system. One guy made a claim on MFK and everybody balked including Ken Davis. That is, until the guy name dropped big names and proof. It was generally determined that _maybe_ there were a couple of other wild caught yellowheads from another water system brought back to the USA.

And for the record, my male and female loisellis will show vertical bars from time to time. Just as any other general ID or sex guidelines, this is not concrete criteria for a positive ID. This is not to take anything away from Mo Devlin. He is very knowledgeable and a guy I admire and respect. It's just that all Parachromis will show vertical bars from time to time. Some more often and darker than others.

Loiselli pair showing vertical bars...









Smaller female loiselli showing vertical bars (in the top center, and a different female than above)...









And I've got plenty more pics showing the same characteristics and just as many of the loisellis _not_ showing vertical bars.


----------



## lostnight

That's the thing that confused me, I've also seen loisellis with some stripes showing. It's maddening, can't there be spine counts done or something?


----------



## terd ferguson

lostnight said:


> That's the thing that confused me, I've also seen loisellis with some stripes showing. It's maddening, can't there be spine counts done or something?


There as many similarities as there differences between the loiselli and friedrichsthalii. It can be very maddening. I went back and forth with my other big male loiselli thinking one week it was loiselli and freddy the next. This went on for over a year with experts ID'ing him as both. That is until I emailed Paul V. Loiselle. He determined it to be a seperate race of loiselli. And his word is gospel as far as I'm concerned. I have called that fish loiselli ever since.

With geographical differences in color and patterns, along with the differences between wild caught and captive bred specimans, along with whatever diet a hobbyist chooses to feed his particular fish affecting their coloration, body shape varying from fish to fish, etc. and you can see the endless variables involved in one loiselli looking one way and another looking differently. And with loisellis and freddys being so close in looks to begin with and it just gets harder. But then again, sometimes ID is crystal clear. Go figure. It's just one more of the many things that fascinate me with the species of Parachromis.


----------



## terd ferguson

It's also worth noting that the big tank has been going for just over a year now. This month marks the two year anniversary of the beginning of the guapote community. In this time, I lost a fish to disease and got a UV sterilizer to prevent it. I lost a fish to jumping out (in the old 190g), and got a heavy duty lid to prevent it. I lost a fish to glass banging. I lost a fish to murder, and chalked it up to a timid fish choosing the wrong hiding spot in a group of fry. I've lost more fry than I can even guesstimate to predation. I've had several fish come and go besides the Parachromis mainstays. I loved them all, but love the guapotes even more. I donated acouple of TSN's to a local public aquarium's awesome South American exhibit.

All in all, it has been a metric s-ton of hard work. But all the hard work, and even the losses, have been a tremendous learning experience and more rewarding than most can imagine. In the beginning, 99.99% of the folks here said this tank would never work long term. I'm not saying I proved them wrong, because long term can mean many things to many different people. But it can no longer be argued that long term success with this setup is not at least _possible_.

Now, I guess some may ask "what now?". Well, I still haven't acheived my ultimate goal of all six (if you count the yellowheads as a seperate species) Parachromis together. I'm still missing friedrichsthalii (unless you consider the yellowhead a freddy). I still don't have all six species paired up. And although I've had as many as five breeding pairs at the same time, I still don't have all six Parachromis spiecies breeding in the same tank. I have reached a lot of goals, including having fry survive to grow out in such an unlikely enviornment, but there are still more to go.

I've had successes and failures. And it's all been documented here. And I thank you all for being interested in and checking out what I'm doing. Other than just documenting this tank, I have learned a lot from others posting in this thread, like using the mangroves to aid in nitrate reduction (which is still working awesome, by the way). And I thank you all for that as well.


----------



## joeyballz

I grabbed that mangrove idea from you at MFK. It didn't work out as well for me but I was pretty over stocked. I still have them though. In 20 years everything we call a freddie or loiselle will proabaly be 20 different species, kind of what's starting to happen with convicts now.

I got home last night to find my yellow heads had spawned. They've been courting for weeks. It's their first time so we'll see what happens. So far they tend to the eggs like pro's.


----------



## terd ferguson

joeyballz said:


> I grabbed that mangrove idea from you at MFK. It didn't work out as well for me but I was pretty over stocked. I still have them though. In 20 years everything we call a freddie or loiselle will proabaly be 20 different species, kind of what's starting to happen with convicts now.
> 
> I got home last night to find my yellow heads had spawned. They've been courting for weeks. It's their first time so we'll see what happens. So far they tend to the eggs like pro's.


How many mangroves do you have and how big are they? How do you have them planted/floating? It's cool the la ceibas spawned. Is this their first spawn? How many eggs, can you guess? Just curious how they compare. :thumb:

Oh, and I need a female, lol.


----------



## vaypourus

Terd-

Curious why you went with the mangroves over an algae turf filter?


----------



## terd ferguson

vaypourus said:


> Terd-
> 
> Curious why you went with the mangroves over an algae turf filter?


It's easier to float the mangroves in my sump is the simple answer. And they do a really good job. One of these days, I'm going to get around to building a bigger sump that will allow for more mangroves and overall larger filtration capacity. Something along the lines of at least 100g, like a 6x2 size. I know a couple of guys who run an algea turf filter and speak highly of them. They say they work really well and are easy to keep up with.


----------



## joeyballz

terd ferguson said:


> joeyballz said:
> 
> 
> 
> I grabbed that mangrove idea from you at MFK. It didn't work out as well for me but I was pretty over stocked. I still have them though. In 20 years everything we call a freddie or loiselle will proabaly be 20 different species, kind of what's starting to happen with convicts now.
> 
> I got home last night to find my yellow heads had spawned. They've been courting for weeks. It's their first time so we'll see what happens. So far they tend to the eggs like pro's.
> 
> 
> 
> How many mangroves do you have and how big are they? How do you have them planted/floating? It's cool the la ceibas spawned. Is this their first spawn? How many eggs, can you guess? Just curious how they compare. :thumb:
> 
> Oh, and I need a female, lol.
Click to expand...

we pm'd for a while on MFK (Danger_Chicken) so I set it up pretty much like your's, I even got them from the same guy. 6 plants, floating on styro, CP light on fro 15hrs. They were growing really fast at first so I trimed them after 2-3 months. It took a while for them to get leaves again and only 5 have them. Since they are growing so much slower now I may have messed them up when I trimed them. The roots all look good with little hairs. I'm in the process of building a sulfer denitrator for my 220 so the mangroves may go when it's complete.

This is their first spawn. There looks to be about 100 or so eggs but I'm real bad at judging eggs and fry count. My female is pretty small I'm guessing about 4-5" I have a few pic's of her contorting her body at the male. He defends her and the eggs from everything in the house and she defends the eggs from him, but from what I can tell she doesn't have to. If they make it I'll hook you up. I got mine at 1" last Nov and the first six months they grew really slow, it's just been the last 2 months that they gained size and color. So it could be a while.


----------



## terd ferguson

joeyballz said:


> terd ferguson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> joeyballz said:
> 
> 
> 
> I grabbed that mangrove idea from you at MFK. It didn't work out as well for me but I was pretty over stocked. I still have them though. In 20 years everything we call a freddie or loiselle will proabaly be 20 different species, kind of what's starting to happen with convicts now.
> 
> I got home last night to find my yellow heads had spawned. They've been courting for weeks. It's their first time so we'll see what happens. So far they tend to the eggs like pro's.
> 
> 
> 
> How many mangroves do you have and how big are they? How do you have them planted/floating? It's cool the la ceibas spawned. Is this their first spawn? How many eggs, can you guess? Just curious how they compare. :thumb:
> 
> Oh, and I need a female, lol.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> we pm'd for a while on MFK (Danger_Chicken) so I set it up pretty much like your's, I even got them from the same guy. 6 plants, floating on styro, CP light on fro 15hrs. They were growing really fast at first so I trimed them after 2-3 months. It took a while for them to get leaves again and only 5 have them. Since they are growing so much slower now I may have messed them up when I trimed them. The roots all look good with little hairs. I'm in the process of building a sulfer denitrator for my 220 so the mangroves may go when it's complete.
> 
> This is their first spawn. There looks to be about 100 or so eggs but I'm real bad at judging eggs and fry count. My female is pretty small I'm guessing about 4-5" I have a few pic's of her contorting her body at the male. He defends her and the eggs from everything in the house and she defends the eggs from him, but from what I can tell she doesn't have to. If they make it I'll hook you up. I got mine at 1" last Nov and the first six months they grew really slow, it's just been the last 2 months that they gained size and color. So it could be a while.
Click to expand...

Cool. I didn't know you were the one from MFK. :thumb: Sounds like they have good parental skills which is always a good sign especially for their first spawn.

Paul Loiselle got back to me about the yellowheads. Here's what he said...



Paul Loiselle said:


> Dear Kevin,
> 
> Based on the photos I have seen of the fish, I would come down on the side of a geographic color variant of Parachromis friedricksthali. Its melanophore pattern corresponds perfectly with that of more typical populations of that species from Belize and the Yucatan. The fish is most emphatically NOT P. loisellei.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Ho ela velona!
> 
> Paul


----------



## chrispyweld

Thanks Kevin for posting that reply. That is what I have head more often then not a variant of Freddie's. On another cite I was looking at a member who was on the trip these were collected on said that he had a few as well. They were fry when he collected but turned out to be these "yellow heads" when grown out. He was pretty hot with Ken for clamming he and Jeff had the only pairs and anyone else was lying since Ken was there when this person had collected them as well. I will try and find the article again.


----------



## terd ferguson

chrispyweld said:


> Thanks Kevin for posting that reply. That is what I have head more often then not a variant of Freddie's. On another cite I was looking at a member who was on the trip these were collected on said that he had a few as well. They were fry when he collected but turned out to be these "yellow heads" when grown out. He was pretty hot with Ken for clamming he and Jeff had the only pairs and anyone else was lying since Ken was there when this person had collected them as well. I will try and find the article again.


No problem for posting the emails. The guy you're talking about sounds like the same guy on MFK that made outrageous claims about having wild la ceibas. I say outrageous because nobody believed him, and from Ken's story of collecting the only two wild pairs in existance from a now destroyed habitat, who would? Then he dropped some big time names and had evidence. Turns out the guy was completely legit. Nobody took him seriously because of something ridiculous like a low post count or something. Just goes to show. That's why I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. You never know who you're talking to on the innernetz. :thumb:

I think the bottom line is that these fish are indeed special. They're special because they're a new race of freddy at the least and a new species at the most. Either way, that makes Parachromis nerds like me happy to have them. Besides, they are super cool in their own right, regardless of the "controversy" as to exactly what they are. I knew they were not loiselli, but the rest I leave up to the real experts.

I'll try to dig up the thread on MFK with the info I'm talking about.


----------



## terd ferguson

I guess since the ID controversy is pretty much settled, that means I have all five Parachromis living together in harmony, lol. I'm still looking for the "regular" freddys though along with a female for the dovii and a female for the "la ceiba". My local source that was growing some freddys out for me hasn't been heard from in a while. :-?


----------



## dwarfpike

Ken will have youngin's soon, but it would take quite a bit of time to grow them out before you can plunk them in the shark tank there.


----------



## terd ferguson

dwarfpike said:


> Ken will have youngin's soon, but it would take quite a bit of time to grow them out before you can plunk them in the shark tank there.


That's not my _only_ tank you know.  I've got plenty of room for growouts. But fry will take nearly a year before they're big enough to go in the big tank.

Any details on the fry? I would assume they would have to be from Jeff Rapps' stock?


----------



## dwarfpike

That's what I meant, I think your other line on freddies were larger sizes.

No, I believe Ken has a breeding pair of freddies ... or at least used to, as he frequently has baby freddies available. I think I remembering him replying to a post on MFK somewhere that he finally enticed the pair to breed again, but I might be off. They are on his current list as upcoming after the ACA convention.

edit: erm, regular freddies ... not the yellowheads.


----------



## chrispyweld

I believe we are talking about the same guy.

I hear Rusty Wessel has found them in other rivers near by now too. So hopefully we can get a more divers gene pool going for these guys, they are nice.


----------



## terd ferguson

chrispyweld said:


> I believe we are talking about the same guy.
> 
> I hear Rusty Wessel has found them in other rivers near by now too. So hopefully we can get a more divers gene pool going for these guys, they are nice.


Forgive me, but I've been trashing on my pickup a lot lately (trying to get ready for paint) and have been a little too busy to keep up with other members' fishes like I should here and on MFK. How big are yours now (la ceibas)? How are they doing atitude wise?


----------



## chrispyweld

5-6in range now I got these on Jan 8th and the largest was about a half inch at the time. Most of the interaction is between the two. I have one that is brightly colored and a submissive that is very pale and washed out. I believe they are both males. They are predatory but not killers. They wont attack what they cant eat but are not afraid to claim space either. Great fish.

I lost the USB to my camera so I can't charge it. :x I plan on getting a new one soon so I can post some pics, maybe you can verify sex for me.


----------



## joeyballz

I've had wigglers since yesterday and the parents are still doing great with them. I'd love to read some of these articles and threads if you guys can find them. I tried finding them on MFK but haven't had any luck.


----------



## chrispyweld

joeyballz said:


> I've had wigglers since yesterday and the parents are still doing great with them. I'd love to read some of these articles and threads if you guys can find them. I tried finding them on MFK but haven't had any luck.


Can you post pics of your pair?? PLEASE!!!!!


----------



## terd ferguson

chrispyweld said:


> 5-6in range now I got these on Jan 8th and the largest was about a half inch at the time. Most of the interaction is between the two. I have one that is brightly colored and a submissive that is very pale and washed out. I believe they are both males. They are predatory but not killers. They wont attack what they cant eat but are not afraid to claim space either. Great fish.
> 
> I lost the USB to my camera so I can't charge it. :x I plan on getting a new one soon so I can post some pics, maybe you can verify sex for me.


Cool, I was just wondering if you thought they acted more "wild" like mine do. That's the only way I know to describe it. They're not particularly aggressive, but they are very confident. I've had some fishes in this tank that were timid when smaller and wouldn't compete or food very well. They'd wait for food to float away to a corner and sneak and get it. Not these la ceibas. When feeding, they are not afraid to mix it up with those MUCH larger and compete or food with the big boys. I'd love to see some pics of yours.

Ken Davis told me only males will have spotting on the dorsal and anal fins. Mine were much the same as yours. One was very bright and the other just didn't display the same color. I kept the good looking one and got the other to another local club member.


----------



## terd ferguson

joeyballz said:


> I've had wigglers since yesterday and the parents are still doing great with them. I'd love to read some of these articles and threads if you guys can find them. I tried finding them on MFK but haven't had any luck.


Search my threads or posts on my MK profile. I'm pretty sure I had a couple of "la ceiba" threads with the other havy hitter la ceiba/Parachromis keepers chiming in.



chrispyweld said:


> Can you post pics of your pair?? PLEASE!!!!!


Yes, this. Pretty Please. :thumb:


----------



## chrispyweld

The brighter of the two has very few spots on the tail and mostly just around the base not it the middle or end of the fins. The paler of the two has spots through out.

I'll get a USB...


----------



## joeyballz

You don't have to ask me three times to post pictures 

*[Begin Hijack]*

This tank is really hard to photograph. Some of the pic's are ok some are not that clear. These were taken at various ties over the past 6 weeks. Click the pic's for full size.

The first day the YH were added to the tank. The convict pair "tried" to show him who's boss. They live "behind" the background now. They are my biggest worry for the fry.









*Male*


















*Female*



























Flaring at the male









*Pair*


















*With eggs*


















*[End Hijack]*


----------



## chrispyweld

Awesome pics.

I am really thinking I have a pair after seeing these. In the first pic of the female see how there is just like one row of spots at the base of the fin, exactly how my colorful one looks. The pale one has fins like your male except there is not that much blue yet.

How big are these again?


----------



## clgkag

Dude, those are stunning!


----------



## joeyballz

not sure exaclty but the female is around 4-5" and the male 5-6". I'd guess on the smaller size of those guesses :roll:
How big are your's?


----------



## terd ferguson

joeyballz said:


> not sure exaclty but the female is around 4-5" and the male 5-6". I'd guess on the smaller size of those guesses :roll:
> How big are your's?


Yours are awesome, for sure. Beautiful. Amazing. =D> Thanks for posting the pics and no hijack worries here, lol. My male is around 7" now. I'd love to have a female for him.

Also, just when I had given up on my local freddy source, he PM'ed me yesterday on the local club forum. I should be getting a pair or a group to grow out very soon. These are Parachromis friedrichsthalii (not "la ceiba") originally from Ken Davis. I'm unsure as to numbers, sexes, or F1/2/13 or whatever. All I know is he had six or seven about an inch long or so six months ago or so. I'll have more details soon. opcorn:


----------



## lostnight

All these pics are getting me anxious to get my little buggers to breeding size. I've already done two sizeable water changes in their aquarium, and I've only had them for slightly over a week.


----------



## terd ferguson

lostnight said:


> All these pics are getting me anxious to get my little buggers to breeding size. I've already done two sizeable water changes in their aquarium, and I've only had them for slightly over a week.


Let's see 'em. :thumb:


----------



## TheFishGuy

Not to be a pain (the pictures are great by the way) but we're only supposed to put in five pictures per post... Just a friendly reminder... Just do what I do... Post two times in a row :lol:


----------



## KC

TF, I remember reading previously in this thread that your new additions are often placed in your African tank until they grow out enough to make it in the big tank. Do you think growing up in that environment has impact on how they behave in the 360? I don't know how the fish that were already adults at the start of this thread were raised though, just the additions.

I also remember reading that TheFishGuy grows out all his young oscars with an old dominate female oscar and as a result they are particularly well behaved and don't smash dithers, or something to that effect. Perhaps he can chime in and give the particulars. Anyways, the way young cichlids are raised will influence their adult behavior, at least to some degree, and I was wondering if perhaps a little time in a crowded (I assume) African tank might have some bearing on your success?

I have noticed similarities in success stories and have been wondering about this for a while now before deciding to chime in.


----------



## chrispyweld

Interesting notion...


----------



## lostnight

terd ferguson said:


> lostnight said:
> 
> 
> 
> All these pics are getting me anxious to get my little buggers to breeding size. I've already done two sizeable water changes in their aquarium, and I've only had them for slightly over a week.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's see 'em. :thumb:
Click to expand...

I'll try to get pics in the next couple of days. They are still a little skittish, but they're getting more outgoing. The biggest one hides the most, go figure.


----------



## terd ferguson

KC said:


> TF, I remember reading previously in this thread that your new additions are often placed in your African tank until they grow out enough to make it in the big tank. Do you think growing up in that environment has impact on how they behave in the 360? I don't know how the fish that were already adults at the start of this thread were raised though, just the additions.
> 
> I also remember reading that TheFishGuy grows out all his young oscars with an old dominate female oscar and as a result they are particularly well behaved and don't smash dithers, or something to that effect. Perhaps he can chime in and give the particulars. Anyways, the way young cichlids are raised will influence their adult behavior, at least to some degree, and I was wondering if perhaps a little time in a crowded (I assume) African tank might have some bearing on your success?
> 
> I have noticed similarities in success stories and have been wondering about this for a while now before deciding to chime in.


I took down the African tank a while back. It was technically my daughter's tank, although somehow I did all the work, lol. I sold it and got her a nano reef.

But as to your question, the only ones I raised in the African tank was the female mota and the grammodes. I kept them in there until I thought they were big enough to go in the big tank. Now, some of the fishes in the big tank were added as adults, some as juvies, and a few were raised from fry or near fry size. The female jag has been with the big guys since being 2" long. A convict survived from being dumped in with a large group of fry for food for the big guys. Also, I have somewhere between 5 and 10 Parachromis "somethings" in the big tank that have survived from hatching until now that they are a little over 2". I have a good feeling that most of these will grow out to adulthood.

To be more specific, I'm not sure if potentially aggressive fishes can be "trained" by raising them with more docile adults. The africans wouldn't have been good role models, all they did was chase each other in circles, lol. As to your comments about TFG putting growouts in with a mature docile Oscar, that's interesting. I imagine that fishes could potentially have a better community atitude if they are raised in a less aggressive enviornment. Maybe like a monkey see, monkey do type of thing. In all honesty, I'd rather grow out fishes in the big tank than in a smaller one. I think my community is docile enough to teach the growouts the right attitude. I think smaller fishes get to learn the tank's dynamics sooner and they are better for it in the long run. In any case, a new addition's (to the big tank) biggest worry is to stay away from fry. If they can do that, they will more than likely be just fine. At least that's been my experience so far.


----------



## lostnight

terd ferguson said:


> lostnight said:
> 
> 
> 
> All these pics are getting me anxious to get my little buggers to breeding size. I've already done two sizeable water changes in their aquarium, and I've only had them for slightly over a week.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's see 'em. :thumb:
Click to expand...

Snapped some pics tonight, none are great though. They are still little babies compared to others posted in this thread. They'll get there some day.









. 








.








.








.


----------



## joeyballz

Looks good. One male is startin g to color up. over the next 2 months you will see a lot of changes. Once you see a pair "starting" to form get the others out of there. My male is growing like crazy right now, that's what he looked like in May. Turns out there are some of the most amazing parents I've seen. I have to put the fry food on an 18" plastic stick. Both parents hit that stick hard and with those fangs I'm certian they'd brawn blood.


----------



## lostnight

Cool, I do like the look of the male, and his profile is quite predatory. I'm glad to hear you say that your's looked like mine so recently, I think it's time for another water change!


----------



## terd ferguson

lostnight said:


> Cool, I do like the look of the male, and his profile is quite predatory. I'm glad to hear you say that your's looked like mine so recently, I think it's time for another water change!


Pics 2 and 3 seem to show alpha male material. Good lookin' fish. :thumb:


----------



## lostnight

Thanks, I think he'll be a nice one. Not overly aggressive either, at least not yet.

The water change has been put on hold, we are getting severe storms in Dayton, looks like multiple rounds to come, and my basement fishroom is flooding a bit, I've already sponge-mopped up two buckets, oh joy.


----------



## lostnight

Wow, the rain is incredible, cars are literally floating within walking distance (10 minute walk)from me. They just showed that on the news. 2 more buckets mopped up, many more to go.


----------



## terd ferguson

lostnight said:


> Wow, the rain is incredible, cars are literally floating within walking distance (10 minute walk)from me. They just showed that on the news. 2 more buckets mopped up, many more to go.


Hope you're not up to your armpits yet. opcorn:


----------



## lostnight

Nah, it wasn't like that, just sponge-mop type flooding. PITA, but I manged to control it. Right before I went to bed I noticed that my young pair of Lamprologus tetracanthus bred for the first time, there was free swimming fry. Their aquarium is in the basement fishroom, I was too busy mopping to notice. I think the tetracanthus can appeal to people who like aggressive predatory CAs, the tetracanthus fit that bill. Grow to 8 inches, big canines, substrate spawners. Sound familiar? I made a quick vid before going to bed.


----------



## terd ferguson

lostnight said:


> Nah, it wasn't like that, just sponge-mop type flooding. PITA, but I manged to control it. Right before I went to bed I noticed that my young pair of Lamprologus tetracanthus bred for the first time, there was free swimming fry. Their aquarium is in the basement fishroom, I was too busy mopping to notice. I think the tetracanthus can appeal to people who like aggressive predatory CAs, the tetracanthus fit that bill. Grow to 8 inches, big canines, substrate spawners. Sound familiar? I made a quick vid before going to bed.


Cool video. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

Well, I finally had my first spawn in months. I'm not sure why everyone took a break all at the same time, but things have picked back up. Nothing significant has changed with regards to water parameters or habitat. But a few days ago, the large managuense pair laid eggs and now there are thousands of wrigglers. Hopefully this will inspire all the other pairs to pick it back up again as well. opcorn:

Also, I saw a good sized managuense fry/sub-juvie about 2" long in the sump under all the bio balls. What they eat down there in the dark to survive is beyond me, lol. I'll try to get him out pretty soon. I also gave some frozen bloodworms for the first time in a while and the juvie fry growing out in the big tank came out in force from all kinds of nooks and crannies. These guys are a few months old at the least, probably around six months or so. I knew there were around 5, but yesterday I saw at least 10 in the 1" to 2"+ range all scattering about trying to scoop up bloodworms and avoid the big guys.

I'll get some new pics up soon and a video. opcorn:


----------



## lostnight

terd ferguson said:


> Also, I saw a good sized managuense fry/sub-juvie about 2" long in the sump under all the bio balls. What they eat down there in the dark to survive is beyond me, lol.


Sounds like he's had a sheltered life, lol.

You have some interesting activity going on there, must be a fun aquarium.


----------



## terd ferguson

lostnight said:


> terd ferguson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I saw a good sized managuense fry/sub-juvie about 2" long in the sump under all the bio balls. What they eat down there in the dark to survive is beyond me, lol.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like he's had a sheltered life, lol.
> 
> You have some interesting activity going on there, must be a fun aquarium.
Click to expand...

Funny joke.  It's an awesome tank indeed in all seriousness. Sometimes I find myself taking for granted the true awesomeness of it all.

Here's a pic of a proud diddy with some of his youngerns...


----------



## lostnight

Nice swarm, I hope mine parachromis will have broods like that some day. Must be a full time job for the parents to fend off all the predators.

That got me thinking about something. My Orange Pike is extremely predatory, But he didn't seem too concerned about picking off fry from the Caquetaia spectabilis swarm when they bred. Maybe some of the bigger fish think it's too much of a hassle dealing with angry parents to put much effort into such tiny morsels.


----------



## terd ferguson

lostnight said:


> Nice swarm, I hope mine parachromis will have broods like that some day. Must be a full time job for the parents to fend off all the predators.
> 
> That got me thinking about something. My Orange Pike is extremely predatory, But he didn't seem too concerned about picking off fry from the Caquetaia spectabilis swarm when they bred. Maybe some of the bigger fish think it's too much of a hassle dealing with angry parents to put much effort into such tiny morsels.


That's nothing. Those same jags had a fry cloud that was like 3 square feet. I guessed around 10,000. There's a pic back a few pages. It was incredible. 

Another thing to think about is keeping breeding pairs' tankmates very well fed. If they're not constantly hungry, they may not try as hard to eat the fry. This could prevent over protective parents from wounding a tankmate if they were to try to get too close.


----------



## joeyballz

Are you still looking for a female YH? He has 4 one might be female.
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/ ... 1253030164


----------



## Blu-ray

Hi terd, hope everything is going well for you.

I slept for a full 12 hours last night and had a funny dream about you I wanted to share! :lol:

it was me and you in a garden and you had your 360g tank there! there was soily floor and fruit trees around your tank. you had a severe case of algae on your tank's front glass that you wasn't able to remove it. it was totally covered with a thick layer of a strange algae. there were somethings growing on it and I noticed they look like small cucumbers!!! I wanted to tell you this but I didn't remember the English name of cucumber! I told you it looks like a fruit, I don't remember the english name, its like carrot but its green! you got it, then we discovered a cucumber vine next to the tank with ripe cucumbers and its sprigs had gone through the tank! the mystery was solved. :lol: :lol:

after that I saw something like a small snake on a tree, I showed it to you and you took it with your hand and told me that its just a myriapod! and it really was. I was thinking that its interesting if you throw it in the tank and fish hunt it, but you released it in the garden. terd the merciful! :lol:

then I woke up and came to post it!


----------



## terd ferguson

Blu-ray said:


> Hi terd, hope everything is going well for you.
> 
> I slept for a full 12 hours last night and had a funny dream about you I wanted to share! :lol:
> 
> it was me and you in a garden and you had your 360g tank there! there was soily floor and fruit trees around your tank. you had a severe case of algae on your tank's front glass that you wasn't able to remove it. it was totally covered with a thick layer of a strange algae. there were somethings growing on it and I noticed they look like small cucumbers!!! I wanted to tell you this but I didn't remember the English name of cucumber! I told you it looks like a fruit, I don't remember the english name, its like carrot but its green! you got it, then we discovered a cucumber vine next to the tank with ripe cucumbers and its sprigs had gone through the tank! the mystery was solved. :lol: :lol:
> 
> after that I saw something like a small snake on a tree, I showed it to you and you took it with your hand and told me that its just a myriapod! and it really was. I was thinking that its interesting if you throw it in the tank and fish hunt it, but you released it in the garden. terd the merciful! :lol:
> 
> then I woke up and came to post it!


All hail terd the merciful. I love it.   What's funny about that and the part you probably didn't know is I DO have algea growing on the glass I can't get off. I hope it doesn't sprout cucumbers.


----------



## Blu-ray

:lol: 
Usually I don't remember my dreams when I wake up but this one was so clear!! 

Also I remember you showed me a few pictures of the front glass showing that you clean off that cucualgae but a day later its all back again! :lol:


----------



## ashilli48

terd ferguson said:


> vaypourus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Terd-
> 
> Curious why you went with the mangroves over an algae turf filter?
> 
> 
> 
> It's easier to float the mangroves in my sump is the simple answer. And they do a really good job. One of these days, I'm going to get around to building a bigger sump that will allow for more mangroves and overall larger filtration capacity. Something along the lines of at least 100g, like a 6x2 size. I know a couple of guys who run an algea turf filter and speak highly of them. They say they work really well and are easy to keep up with.
Click to expand...

so the mangroves are still thriving, in freshwater no less.......hmmmm.....do recall someone poo-pooing that idea a while back.....good to see all is well with the whole deal....which I remember being poo-pooed as well....lol!


----------



## E_Unit79

Hi terd,
I am new to the forum and have read many pages of this thread but not all. I know in the beginning you mentioned issues with plants in your main fish tank. I was wondering if you ever considered some floating plants like hornswort or something close to that I have been told is good because it does not have to be planted. Either way I like this thread and like you tank. Wish you all the best

Eric


----------



## terd ferguson

Hey guys. Remember me? It's been a while. Life has been super crazy busy lately. But the tank and fish are all still doing great. The dovii is about a foot now and looking awesome. More of just the same old same old.

In other fishy news, I rescued a MONSTER managuense last week. It came in the local fish store pretty messed up with hole in the head and was just laying on it's side in their tank. He was also really beat up from being in their CA/SA community tank. It seems as though a couple of Midas/Red Devils had their way with him since he was under the weather. They called me up and gave it to me cause they knew he would have the best shot at recovery with me. He stopped laying on his side after a couple of days in my hospital tank and is swimming normally. His appetite isn't the greatest though. I can't get him to eat pellets or shrimp, just frozen blood worms so far. He is HUGE and has a great pattern, right about 15". He's about as long as Tiny was but thicker in the face with giant lips and big eyes. His head is about four fingers wide! So roughly nearly four inches thick! 

He's super cool, I hope he makes it. If I can get him fixed up, I'll add him to the big tank. I know I've been slacking with the updates, but honestly there's not been much action. Just lots and lots of fish food, lol.  I'll put up some new pictures soon.

***EDITED TO ADD***
I forgot to add that there's still four or five little juveniles in the big tank from a spawn way back when. The largest of them is close to 3", they grow so slowly when they're that little. It doesn't help that it's hard for them to feed. They hide in nooks and crannies and dart out at feeding time to grab what they can of what the Oscars spit out. One has just started to get brave and swim around quite a bit most of the time. The only fish he seems scared of is the dovii, lol. When the dovii comes round, he goes into hiding until the dovii's out of sight again. :lol: That largest one is either a loiselli or a loiselli x mota when they spawned a couple of times. The other juvies are managuense.


----------



## Burtle

We're gonna need more pictures.
Wanna see this monster Jaguar!
I love this aquarium.


----------



## terd ferguson

Here's a couple of that big managuense. He is MASSIVE!...










This kind of shows the hole in the head. Check out those big lips...










Parachromis sp. "la ceiba yellowhead" closeup...



















Parachromis dovii...










Sorry the pics kind of suck of the big tank. The air bubbles and lighting ruin it, lol.


----------



## Gliven

looks like he may have pop-eye to shame because he is a really nice fish.


----------



## mattfromcraig

That Jag is gorgeous, can't wait till mine gets that big. He is only 10 now. Getting ready to buy a 220 so I thinnk he will grow a little faster in it, nice looking fish keep up the pics we all love them.


----------



## Burtle

The Jag looks ancient.
Great collection of Guapotes!


----------



## ashilli48

what's the latest? The Dovii get a mate yet?


----------



## terd ferguson

ashilli48 said:


> what's the latest? The Dovii get a mate yet?


No, not yet. I haven't been really looking lately. Things have been going so well in there, I've been hesitant to change it, lol.  That dovii is getting quite large though, easily over a foot now. I promise to get some fresh pics up soon!


----------



## ashilli48

Wow, a foot! Praying for the status quo, however unimaginable it may be...... 8)


----------



## remarkosmoc

Lookin great!


----------



## roman_back

hey terd, its been awhile since *** posted as well. i got wrapped up in the saltwater stuff and havent done much to my cichlid tank in forever.. i do have some bad news and was hoping u of all people could help me. my dovi, whom is now approaching 18" decided he wanted to be a ******* and eat the floating thermometer, he now has a piece of glass in his mouth and its turned into a tumor. its to the point now where he can only eat pellets. i dont know what to do, or how to help do u have any ideas? im going to post this in the illness section also but here is a photo. please help me if u can!


----------



## terd ferguson

roman,

Sorry to hear about your dovii. He looks just like mine, just bigger (and minus the tumor). I'm really at a loss as to what to do. Maybe lance it? If the glass is still in there, I'd think you'd want to get it out. I don't see it being easy trying to operate on a giant dovii, lol. I'd try and post on MFK and see if any of those fellas can help. Try some of the big guapote guys over there. I haven't been on much there at all, life gets in the way, lol. I hope everything turns out ok. Let me know how it goes. Good luck!


----------



## roman_back

i dont have an account on MFK, would u care to ask the guys over there? also how would i treat the wound, or even put him asleep for that matter. i also dont have a hospital tank large enough to home him in his recovery process. i just dont know what to do.  he is one of the best colored dovi's i have ever seen and he is actually really laid back and never shows agression to the other fish, hes a "predatory community" fishkeepers dream.. a tame dovi lol.


----------



## Bkeen

roman_back said:


> i dont have an account on MFK, would u care to ask the guys over there? also how would i treat the wound, or even put him asleep for that matter. i also dont have a hospital tank large enough to home him in his recovery process. i just dont know what to do.  he is one of the best colored dovi's i have ever seen and he is actually really laid back and never shows agression to the other fish, hes a "predatory community" fishkeepers dream.. a tame dovi lol.


Man that is rough. Poor guy- at some point you have to make a call on this fish...


----------



## BigJagLover

Hey terd hows the big jag doing? has he healed up any since the last pic? I hope so hes a nice fish. By the way what are you feeding the dovii he's a " football"? Looks good though. glad to hear all is well with the tank. Best of luck to ya and i rooting for this to work as i want one of these tanks myself on day.


----------



## terd ferguson

BigJagLover said:


> Hey terd hows the big jag doing? has he healed up any since the last pic? I hope so hes a nice fish. By the way what are you feeding the dovii he's a " football"? Looks good though. glad to hear all is well with the tank. Best of luck to ya and i rooting for this to work as i want one of these tanks myself on day.


He's doing MUCH better! He righted himself from swimming on his side on the bottom pretty quick. He didn't eat for the longest time. I started getting worried. I finally ended up having to feed him by hand. I have to wait for him to come to the top and he wants me to put the food right in his gaping mouth! 

The dovii, and everybody else, gets a mix of Hikari Cichlid Gold, nightcrawlers, market shrimp, different fish filets cut up (swai, tilapia), scallops, whatever is on sale in the supermarket seafood section. I feed them twice a day. That dovii has really packed on some serious size in the last few months. He's at least a foot now, maybe more.

I don't see any reason things will change any time soon. It's been almost three years now for most of these fishes. And the dovii's been in there almost a year and a half now. There's still a couple of little guys left in there born way back when. The bigger of the two is closing in a 4". I have no reason to believe both of those won't continue to grow out to full adult status. I can never really declare it a success, something crazy could happen at any time. But this is as close as anybody's ever come so far! I don't know anybody else doing this without murders and constant fueding and injuries. :thumb:


----------



## JackalBG

Nice


----------



## roman_back

well my big dovii died this morning.. and that is it for me... my tank is going up for sale and im gonna hang it up for awhile.. its to hard to loose a big fish like that, especially one that you have raised from a fry.


----------



## hakkadeimos

well i have just read your whole post and what a trip ... nice fish .. and my condolences to all the owners of the fish we lose


----------



## terd ferguson

JackalBG said:


> Nice


Thanks!



roman_back said:


> well my big dovii died this morning.. and that is it for me... my tank is going up for sale and im gonna hang it up for awhile.. its to hard to loose a big fish like that, especially one that you have raised from a fry.


I'm so sorry to hear that. I know the feeling. I felt the same way when Tiny was paralyzed. I was sick and ready to give up. But I'm glad I didn't. Give it some time and think it over before you sell your tank. You'll regret it if you sell it.



hakkadeimos said:


> well i have just read your whole post and what a trip ... nice fish .. and my condolences to all the owners of the fish we lose


Thanks!


----------



## roman_back

i was just starting my cichlid tank and stumbled upon this forum and read your thread about 2 yrs ago, i noticed i had the same thing going as u, just on a smaller scale.. i didnt realize how unheard of or how many people would degrade or think less of someone for housing these big aggressive fish together.... i kinda feel like *** took this journey with ya lol.. and in the end.. i only lost one fish to aggression, and that was a clown loach that my salvini decided he wanted to make lunch when i was cleaning the tank. in a way i lost the dovi to aggression but it was to a thermometer instead of another fish. all in all i feel if u have a large enough tank, proper knowledge of these guys, introducing certain fish at the right times/sizes and a whole lotta luck it can happen. this thread is one of the few good finds on the internet these days... im glad i am a weee little bit part of it lol. and thanks terd for allowing me to input my updates here and there in this thread also!


----------



## terd ferguson

roman_back said:


> i was just starting my cichlid tank and stumbled upon this forum and read your thread about 2 yrs ago, i noticed i had the same thing going as u, just on a smaller scale.. i didnt realize how unheard of or how many people would degrade or think less of someone for housing these big aggressive fish together.... i kinda feel like I've took this journey with ya lol.. and in the end.. i only lost one fish to aggression, and that was a clown loach that my salvini decided he wanted to make lunch when i was cleaning the tank. in a way i lost the dovi to aggression but it was to a thermometer instead of another fish. all in all i feel if u have a large enough tank, proper knowledge of these guys, introducing certain fish at the right times/sizes and a whole lotta luck it can happen. this thread is one of the few good finds on the internet these days... im glad i am a weee little bit part of it lol. and thanks terd for allowing me to input my updates here and there in this thread also!


Well said roman! I've had several broken thermometers over the last few months. I stopped keeping them in the water. I've got one tied to a string now. I dip it in there during water changes and keep it out the rest of the time. I've got three heaters ("two is one, one is none" rule) and even if they all went out, my house is never cold enough to hurt the fish.

I'm sorry about losing your dovii. They're definately my favorite guapote (if I had to choose one, it's sooo hard, lol). I think you should start off another small one. Get back on the horse so to speak. You'll never get the money your setup is worth when you sell it. And when you do sell it, six months later you'll start getting the itch again and you'll have to buy another setup.

I appreciate your contributions. Feel free to share in this thread any time. It's all in the name of research and getting proper information out there. :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

I took some pics and a couple of videos a few days ago. Check 'em out...

F1 Parachromis sp. "la ceiba yellowhead" from Honduras...









Parachromis loiselli. One of the juveniles that have grown out in the big tank from beng hatched as eggs almost two years ago...









Tank shot...









Here's a couple of little guys I pulled out of the sump a few months ago. One is a stunning male Parachromis managuense. The other one is a Parachromis loiselli/motaguense/loiselli x motaguense, I'm still not entirely sure? I found another one in the sump a few days ago but haven't been able to catch him yet.









Next up is that giant Parachromis managuense rescue. I'm so glad I was able to get him healthy again. He is super nice looking! 









Here he is again in a video this time. I had trouble getting him to eat for a month. I finally figured out he will only eat directly from my hand! He's healthy enough now that it won't be very long before he moves to the big tank.
http://www.youtube.com/user/imahugegiga ... b3WXMd948E

And here's a quick video of the big tank.
http://www.youtube.com/user/imahugegiga ... 6zY3Wgdgus

Sorry for the video links, I can't seem to embed them. If you can, feel free. Hope you like them! :thumb:


----------



## PepoLD

terd ferguson said:


> I took some pics and a couple of videos a few days ago. Check 'em out...
> 
> F1 Parachromis sp. "la ceiba yellowhead" from Honduras...


whowow i've been trying to identify that cichlid on my fishtank forever... haha and suddenly i saw him on your pics! i bought it like 4 months ago as "Mercury Cichlid.." i was like yeah right, but i liked his similarity to the Salvini, and they go everywhere togheter hehe  good to know its name at least


----------



## chrispyweld

These are pretty rare in the hobby. I doubt you would find one mislabeled.


----------



## terd ferguson

PepoLD said:


> terd ferguson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I took some pics and a couple of videos a few days ago. Check 'em out...
> 
> F1 Parachromis sp. "la ceiba yellowhead" from Honduras...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whowow i've been trying to identify that cichlid on my fishtank forever... haha and suddenly i saw him on your pics! i bought it like 4 months ago as "Mercury Cichlid.." i was like yeah right, but i liked his similarity to the Salvini, and they go everywhere togheter hehe  good to know its name at least
Click to expand...

Like chrispy said, these are pretty rare in the hobby. As far as I know, there is only one or two wild caught breeding pair. Could be that you have a Parachromis friedrichsthalii. They are very similar. Post up a pic and we can tell you for sure. Feel free to post it in this thread if you like. :thumb:


----------



## PepoLD

really? I've seen a lot here in Mx


----------



## terd ferguson

PepoLD said:


> really? I've seen a lot here in Mx


They are just now starting to be spread around. If you look back in this thread, you will see how they came to be. Only two wild pairs were collected by Ken Davis and brought back to the US from a lagoon in Honduras which was later destroyed to build a resort. Ken Davis kept one pair and the other went to Rusty Wessell. There was one other wild pair collected previous to that. One of those three wild pair is no more as of six months ago or so (Ken Davis'). My fish is F1 from one of those three wild pair (Ken Davis'). Rusty Wessell has the other of the two collected from the destroyed lagoon and Jeff Rapps distributes his fry. Someone else high up in the hobby is supposed to have the only other wild pair left. Long story short, there were only three wild breeding pair in existance for the last three years or so and only two wild breeding pair for the last year or so. And the second wild pair (I forget the guy who has them) are not having fry being distributed. So they can't be that wide spread.

The first fry from these wild pairs are just now reaching adult hood and sexual maturity. My male is one of these from Ken Davis from early on. Hobbyists have been breeding these fry and distributing them in the last year or so. But, unless you had one fish from Ken Davis and the other from Jeff Rapps (who distributes Rusty Wessell's fry), you would be breeding brother and sister resulting in genetically inferior fishes.

So, again, long story short, Pepo, I'm not saying you're wrong. But it could be you're mistaking the "honduras yellowhead" for the much more common Parachromis friedrichsthalii which look very similar. Or there could be a fellow down in Mexico breeding the "yellowheads" for distribution into the hobby in your specific area. But they are not exactly "all over" in most parts of the USA or the world for that matter. Especially of the F1 variety.


----------



## chrispyweld

Mo Devlin or aquamojo collected fry the same time as the others were collected that ended up being some of these and he got a pair.

I have females from Davis and a couple males from Rapps. can't wait till the males get a little bigger so I can try breeding these guys. Hopefully I can get two pairs. I came across one other woman who has females from Rapps and males from Davis.

Which reminds me she told me to register my pair with ACA CARES. Anyone know how.


----------



## PepoLD

Yeah i might be wrong then... hehe here's a terribad quality pic i just took with my cellphone

















i know, sorry about the quality but gf have my camera  ill try to get a better shoot tomorrow


----------



## dwarfpike

*chrispyweld* - http://www.cichlid.org/index.php?pageid=aca_cares_preservation_program

Towards the bottom is the email addy of Claudia Dickinson and the info she needs to add you to the list of keepers.


----------



## chrispyweld

Thanks D.P.

Penny cat from that thread is the other gal I was referring too. I found my comment on her vid. :lol: :lol:


----------



## terd ferguson

PepoLD said:


> Yeah i might be wrong then... hehe here's a terribad quality pic i just took with my cellphone
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i know, sorry about the quality but gf have my camera  ill try to get a better shoot tomorrow


In the first pic, the fish on top is definately a Salvini, not "la ceiba yellowhead". But it's a nice Salvini nontheless. I can't quite make a judgement on the other fish in the two pics, the photo's too blurry. If you can get some better pics, I can tell more.


----------



## terd ferguson

chrispyweld said:


> Mo Devlin or aquamojo collected fry the same time as the others were collected that ended up being some of these and he got a pair.
> 
> I have females from Davis and a couple males from Rapps. can't wait till the males get a little bigger so I can try breeding these guys. Hopefully I can get two pairs. I came across one other woman who has females from Rapps and males from Davis.
> 
> Which reminds me she told me to register my pair with ACA CARES. Anyone know how.


That's great you've got males from one and females from another. That guarantees good genetics. I wish I had a Rapps female! These are awesome fish and I'd like to see the resposibly spread in the hobby. Good luck chrispy! Feel free to post here as to how it's going with yours. Quality, correct info is what this thread is all about! Thanks for sharing! :thumb:


----------



## PepoLD

terd ferguson said:


> In the first pic, the fish on top is definately a Salvini, not "la ceiba yellowhead". But it's a nice Salvini nontheless. I can't quite make a judgement on the other fish in the two pics, the photo's too blurry. If you can get some better pics, I can tell more.


Yep the fish on top is the salvini i had that hangs around with this other i was refering to 

i got the camera today.. but it had no batery and gf have my cables.. haha ill take that pic someday this week


----------



## roman_back

PepoLD said:


> terd ferguson said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the first pic, the fish on top is definately a Salvini, not "la ceiba yellowhead". But it's a nice Salvini nontheless. I can't quite make a judgement on the other fish in the two pics, the photo's too blurry. If you can get some better pics, I can tell more.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep the fish on top is the salvini i had that hangs around with this other i was refering to
> 
> i got the camera today.. but it had no batery and gf have my cables.. haha ill take that pic someday this week
Click to expand...

Both fish in these pics appear to be salvini's to me.


----------



## PepoLD

roman_back said:


> PepoLD said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> terd ferguson said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the first pic, the fish on top is definately a Salvini, not "la ceiba yellowhead". But it's a nice Salvini nontheless. I can't quite make a judgement on the other fish in the two pics, the photo's too blurry. If you can get some better pics, I can tell more.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep the fish on top is the salvini i had that hangs around with this other i was refering to
> 
> i got the camera today.. but it had no batery and gf have my cables.. haha ill take that pic someday this week
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Both fish in these pics appear to be salvini's to me.
Click to expand...

yeah is my cellphone cameras fault  but is totally different than a Salvini, ill update that pic later this week


----------



## chrispyweld

terd ferguson said:


> That's great you've got males from one and females from another. That guarantees good genetics. I wish I had a Rapps female! These are awesome fish and I'd like to see the resposibly spread in the hobby. Good luck chrispy! Feel free to post here as to how it's going with yours. Quality, correct info is what this thread is all about! Thanks for sharing! :thumb:


I got lucky. A local club put in an order to Rapps and I tagged on a few fish otherwise it would probably never happened. I talked to Jeff ahead of time and he said he had no problem sexing them and a few that were larger he would send. www.drywashaquarium.org of Phoenix AZ. (Shameless plug...deal with it) is awesome and I ended up paying very little for shipping when it was split up amongst the club.

What is strange is the five survivors of the original order from Ken ended up all being females. They were 1/2in when I got them so there was no way to determine sex. What are the odds?

I can use all the luck I can get so thanks. :lol: :lol:

If I ever get some fry I will be sure to send some your way if your interested. In fact I have the possibility of two F1 breeding pairs and only enough space for one. Hmmm...


----------



## PepoLD

Okay got new pics.. this time it isn't the camera's fault hehe i guess im plain bad taking pics 


































Hehe well i hope those help this time


----------



## PepoLD

PepoLD said:


> Okay got new pics.. this time it isn't the camera's fault hehe i guess im plain bad taking pics
> 
> Hehe well i hope those help this time


Btw looks way darker than usual, i woke them up early to take this pics, ill take him more tonight with normal coloration


----------



## terd ferguson

Last pic shows Parachromis friedrichsthalii, and a really nice looking male at that. He bears a strong resemblance to Mo's Parachromis friedrichsthalii "cenote escondido", which is simply a geographical varient of the freddys. The ones I posted are Parachromis sp. "la ceiba yellowhead" from Honduras. I believe they are now thought to be yet another variant of Parachromis friedrichsthalii, though they were first thought to be a new and seperate species of Parachromis.

Feel free to share more pics if you get better ones than this! :thumb:


----------



## terd ferguson

chrispyweld said:


> terd ferguson said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's great you've got males from one and females from another. That guarantees good genetics. I wish I had a Rapps female! These are awesome fish and I'd like to see the resposibly spread in the hobby. Good luck chrispy! Feel free to post here as to how it's going with yours. Quality, correct info is what this thread is all about! Thanks for sharing! :thumb:
> 
> 
> 
> I got lucky. A local club put in an order to Rapps and I tagged on a few fish otherwise it would probably never happened. I talked to Jeff ahead of time and he said he had no problem sexing them and a few that were larger he would send. www.drywashaquarium.org of Phoenix AZ. (Shameless plug...deal with it) is awesome and I ended up paying very little for shipping when it was split up amongst the club.
> 
> What is strange is the five survivors of the original order from Ken ended up all being females. They were 1/2in when I got them so there was no way to determine sex. What are the odds?
> 
> I can use all the luck I can get so thanks. :lol: :lol:
> 
> If I ever get some fry I will be sure to send some your way if your interested. In fact I have the possibility of two F1 breeding pairs and only enough space for one. Hmmm...
Click to expand...

I really appreciate the offer, but overnight shipping from AZ to NC would probably kill the deal.


----------



## trimac

roman_back said:
 

> well my big dovii died this morning.. and that is it for me... my tank is going up for sale and im gonna hang it up for awhile.. its to hard to loose a big fish like that, especially one that you have raised from a fry.


I know its tough-but dont let it make you quit the hobby. Take a break for awhile but dont quit.
My Amarillo recently thrashed my prized Trimac so I know how you feel.


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## roman_back

trimac said:


> roman_back said:
> 
> 
> 
> well my big dovii died this morning.. and that is it for me... my tank is going up for sale and im gonna hang it up for awhile.. its to hard to loose a big fish like that, especially one that you have raised from a fry.
> 
> 
> 
> I know its tough-but dont let it make you quit the hobby. Take a break for awhile but dont quit.
> My Amarillo recently thrashed my prized Trimac so I know how you feel.
Click to expand...

well i have ventured over to the saltwater side of the hobby, its kinda a new challenge and something a bit different. its kinda took my attention off cichlids for the past 6 months or so. my g/f is wanting the extra space in the living room that my 140 has occupied, i would hate to sell the big tank, but i am also building a race car too. money is going everywhere but into my cichlids.


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## terd ferguson

Just checking back in. Everything is still everything. All is well in Parachromis heaven. :thumb:


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## PepoLD

Pics!!


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## PepoLD

any update? /bump/bump/bump

Id love to see new pics :fish:


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## TheFishGuy

opcorn:


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## PepoLD

Well since you don't update your thread ill post you a pic of my freddy! 
[/img]









Kk! i hope thats enough motivation so you update us!


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## terd ferguson

Sorry guys! Hopefully this'll tide you over, lol. :thumb:

It's been a little over three years now. First, a little bad news. My tarded Syndontis died a couple of days ago. No outward signs of disease, maybe just age? Otherwise, everything is still everything.

Here's some pics that turned out ok. Sorry for the glare.

Parachromis managuense male, hatched from eggs in the big tank, made his way to the sump as fry, pulled from the sump at around 1 1/2" and moved to a 29g to grow out...









There's another loiselli (same story as the managuense above) in the tank with him, but very camera shy. There is also a 2" motaguense male down in the sump that I can't get to without moving all the bio balls. He seems to have done fine down there so far. I have no clue what they eat down there, lol.

Parachromis motaguense (?) male juvenile, hatched from eggs in the big tank, spent his entire life in the big tank. Notice the red on the belly, he's going to be NICE!...









Same male motaguense...









Smaller Parachromis motaguense (?) male juvenile, hatched from eggs in the big tank, spent his entire life in the big tank. Less red on the belly than the previous male, but it's there although its not showing up in this pic...









Oscar trio, always pal'ing around acting goofy. Notice the larger of the two juvenile motas down low for size reference...


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## terd ferguson

Parachromis loiselli female adult...









Parachromis sp. "la ceiba yellowhead", F1 male...









Same male la ceiba...









And the tank ruler, Parachromis dovii F1 male adult, just a hint at the awesome colors he displays. Man, when he gets right under the lights...  (wish I was a better photog)...









F1 dovii male once again, nuchal bump getting prominant, as is the territory he claims. For some reason, he will bow down and be submissive to the la ceiba even though the dovii is much larger. 









I hope these will hold you til next time... opcorn:


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## TheFishGuy

terd ferguson said:


> The stock is as follows...
> Parachromis managuense male (jaguar), about 14", named Tiny
> Parachromis managuense male (jaguar), about 11", named Teeny
> Parachromis managuense female (jaguar), about 5", named
> Parachromis friedrichsthalli male (freddy), about 12", named Captain Awesome
> Parachromis loiselli female (loiselli), about 6", named Lois
> Amphilophus festae female (True Red Terror), about 8", named Red
> Astronotus ocellatus (Albino tiger Oscar), about 14", named Albie
> Aequidens rivulatus male (Gold Saum or False Green Terror), about 7", named Stuart
> Synodontus eupterus (Featherfin Catfish), about 6", named Corky


So, what is left in this original group? This was in your 185...


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## terd ferguson

TheFishGuy said:


> terd ferguson said:
> 
> 
> 
> The stock is as follows...
> Parachromis managuense male (jaguar), about 14", named Tiny paralyzed charging glass to defend fry, I ended up putting him down with clove oil after a month of no improvement and no eating.
> Parachromis managuense male (jaguar), about 11", named Teeny still there.
> Parachromis managuense female (jaguar), about 5", named still there.
> Parachromis friedrichsthalli male (freddy), about 12", named Captain Awesome still there.
> Parachromis loiselli female (loiselli), about 6", named Lois died from a severe intestinal blockage I couldn't fix (I think from shrimp shell, I now shell all shrimp for feeding), added another female loiselli shown in the above post.
> Amphilophus festae female (True Red Terror), about 8", named Red long gone when the 190g was still running, I took her out (a buddy's house) to make room for more Parachromis.
> Astronotus ocellatus (Albino tiger Oscar), about 14", named Albie still there.
> Aequidens rivulatus male (Gold Saum or False Green Terror), about 7", named Stuart Died from ich in the old 190g early on. I treated with heat and salt, he was by far the worst affected and could not be saved. I immediately got a giant UV Sterilizer and haven't had another instance of ich.
> Synodontus eupterus (Featherfin Catfish), about 6", named Corky died a couple of days ago, detailed in the above post.
> 
> 
> 
> So, what is left in this original group? This was in your 185...
Click to expand...

In addition to the above list, here's what fishes that were added and approximately when (and are still in the big tank today)...

Parachromis loiselli male adult, added as an adult long ago in the 190g before the switch to the big tank.
Parachromis motaguense female adult, grown out from a sub juvie in a smaller tank, added at about 3" to the big tank when it was first set up.
Parachromis motaguense male adult, added to the big tank within the first week or so of it being set up. 
Parachromis sp. "la ceiba yellowhead" male adult, added just before the dovii.
Parachromis dovii adult male, added as a juvenile of about 4" about 1 1/2 years ago.
Astronotus ocellatus, GIANT 15"+ tiger oscar given to me by a buddy when he outgrew his 90g.
Parachromis motaguense, two sub juvie males. These appear in the above post and were hatched from eggs and have survived in the big tank the whole time. (there may be two more small ones hiding in the big tank that rarely show their faces from out of their hiding spots.)

In addition to these there were some that came and went. These were...

2 TSN's that grew from 8" to 18". These started out in the 190g and made the move to the big tank for a while. These were donated by me to a South American exhibit in the Hickory Science Center public aquarium (Hickory, NC) before they got big enough to eat any Parachromis, lol. These were a temporary addition at the time.
Cichlasoma grammodes juvenile male. This guy grew from 4" to 6" in about six months. He was originally a dovii substitute before I was brave enough to try adding a dovii. Donated to a buddy to make room for a real dovii pair.
2 other Synodontis eupterus adults both added the same day almost two years ago. One died the day after shipping, there was a hole in the bag. The other died about six months ago, same as the recent one (no outward signs disease or sickness).
Aequidens rivulatus, GT male. Moved to a friend's tank. I love the GT's, but they will not feed aggressivly enough with the larger Parachromis(es) to thrive in my tank.
Several convicts. Males and females. I was hoping the fry from a few breeding pairs would offer feeding diversity to the larger Parachromis. They didn't have enough fry often enough to really contribute in that way. They are now in their own tank (about 20 of them together).

Also, there was another fish death. This has been the only murder (not the only death/loss)...

Parachromis dovii, female sub juvie. Added at 3" at the same time as the male dovii. She had her face bitten off within 24 hours of being added to the big tank after choosing to hide in the loiselli pair's fry grazing area.

And if that weren't enough, here's one more that will eventually go in the big tank...

Parachromis managuense GIANT male adult at about 15"+ (and handfed only). He was rescued/given to me by the local fish store owner in terrible shape. He was laying on his side on the bottom near death in the store, bad HLLE, and popeye. I got him better with frequent water changes, he began to eat after a couple of weeks and his HLLE is much better after almost six months in his own tank. At first he would only eat directly from my hand. I've been training him to eat on his own from the top of the water. He will go in the big tank very soon.

And just a couple more, lol. These guys were hatched from fry in the big tank and wound up in the bottom of the sump under the bio balls. Whether or not they will go into the big tank or to another friend's tank is still up in the air. They're currently in a 55g together...
Parachromis managuense juvie males (2 of these, 1 in the above post).
Parachromis loiselli/motaguense male/female (?). Not sure about this one, too early to tell, he's still small and a slow grower.
Parachromis loiselli/motaguense juvie male. This guy is still in the bottom of the sump under the bio balls. Hard to catch or I'd have him out in another tank already.

Hope that clears it up (probably more confusing, lol). The dates may be off a tiny bit, I'm going by memory. It should all be pretty well documented in this thread, although I know its hard to go through 65 pages.  But the 190g was setup with about half the listed Parachromis over 3 years ago. And the big tank has been going for right around two years now.

The dovii and the la ceiba are my favorites if I had to choose. I have a bunch of F1's in there, but these two are definately the most "wild" acting of them all. They display much more predatory behavior when feeding. They are calculating when eating,carefully examining their prey before a swift attack. The dovii in particular is very curious, but very smart at the same time. He's well over a foot now from 4 1/2" when he was added a year and a half ago.

I chalk it up to a miracle and good luck that the dovii hasn't decimated the rest of the tank based on real life the experience of others. He stakes out a larger territory than the others. He keeps others mostly out of his space mostly by bluff charges (charge and turn). His speed is blinding.  He is surprisingly submissive to the smaller la ceiba though. They both claim territory on the same side of the tank with the la ceiba in the strawberry pot on the right and the dovii with the rest of the majority of the right half of the tank. The dovii will allow others on his side with no ill effects, but sometimes he just needs his alone time I gues and will shoo others out (except for the la ceiba that he submits to and tolerates extremely well).


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## BigJagLover

That is definitly an impressive tank you got there. Love the gaupotes, they're just amazing.

By the way i'm originally from Winston-salem, NC. I'm accually coming down there for a chicken stew in OCT. I was wondering if time permits, could i come google and drool over you tank?

Awsome tank man, truly awsome.


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## PepoLD

FINALLY!!! 

Hahah gotta love updates on your tank! keep them comming! :thumb:

your Dovii looks gorgeous :dancing:


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## Guapoako318

Those jags are amazing


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## terd ferguson

Guapoako318 said:


> Those jags are amazing


Thanks!

I looked in my sump yesterday and saw the little fella had somehow made it to the pump chamber. I scooped him out of there and put him in a 55g. Lo and behold, there's another 1" or so little bugger in the first chamber under the bioballs. I think fry must somehow be _in_ the bioballs for a while before making their way down and out. They would've had to have been in there for MONTHS. Wierd. Wonder how many are still in there?

Pics soon...


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## PepoLD

Just found a small T. Meeki i lost 2 months ago in my sump... idk what he was eating or how he survived, but i was amazed!


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## TheFishGuy

THs kind of stuff happens all the time, I had nics, convicts, jags, a crayfish and numerous african cichlids beinf found in the sump. Crazy part is how do they get past certain things like the sponges??? LOL


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## terd ferguson

I have been promised a 3" female F2 la ceiba from a local club member. This one was raised from fry. Parents were one from Rapps and one from Davis. I can't wait! Pics when she gets here... opcorn:


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## ChadRamsey

terd ferguson said:


> Thanks. It wouldn't sink so t's just floating against the glass braces on top..


hmm, interesting. i LOVE the look of driftwood floating or protruding into the water from above. I have been trying to come up with a way mount a piece that over comes the buoyancy. But just letting it float is interesting.


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## terd ferguson

ChadRamsey said:


> terd ferguson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks. It wouldn't sink so t's just floating against the glass braces on top..
> 
> 
> 
> hmm, interesting. i LOVE the look of driftwood floating or protruding into the water from above. I have been trying to come up with a way mount a piece that over comes the buoyancy. But just letting it float is interesting.
Click to expand...

Ilove that too and kind of miss it. I want to get some small branches and add them. I'm just waiting for summer to cool down to go out and collect some from my local river.


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## Notrevo

Terd - I still don't understand the lack of mayhem although you posted your rationale. Amazing stuff. I wanted to ask an opinion. While creating your happy medium for the fish, how much of a role do you belive the aquascaping/decor plays in keeping things...er...civil in the tank? Do you think a more sparse setting helps or deters specific to your setup? Thanks


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## terd ferguson

Notrevo said:


> Terd - I still don't understand the lack of mayhem although you posted your rationale. Amazing stuff. I wanted to ask an opinion. While creating your happy medium for the fish, how much of a role do you belive the aquascaping/decor plays in keeping things...er...civil in the tank? Do you think a more sparse setting helps or deters specific to your setup? Thanks


I think the decor plays a major role in keeping things civil. They don't have to stare at each other all day every day as in a sparsly decorated or empty tank. "I had to kill him. He was looking at me cross ways...".


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## terd ferguson

Here's a few pics of my favorites...

F1 Parachromis dovii male, now well over a foot...


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## terd ferguson

F1 Parachromis sp. "la ceiba yellowhead" male, very close to a foot...


















This pic came out the best of all. Smallest fish in the tank. Young juvenile Parachromis male, maybe motaguense, maybe loiselli, just shy of 4". This fish was hatched from eggs in the big tank. Somehow he's managed to survive. There are two of these out of well over 100,000 fry....


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## TheFishGuy

What are the dimentions of your tank again?


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## terd ferguson

TheFishGuy said:


> What are the dimentions of your tank again?


8' long x 3' wide x 25" tall.


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## mlancaster

Hi *terd ferguson*,

Thanks for the updated pics. The little guy looks great. I also like body shape of the La Ceiba; he looks thick.

Thanks,
Matt


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## Notrevo

terd ferguson said:


> Notrevo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Terd - I still don't understand the lack of mayhem although you posted your rationale. Amazing stuff. I wanted to ask an opinion. While creating your happy medium for the fish, how much of a role do you belive the aquascaping/decor plays in keeping things...er...civil in the tank? Do you think a more sparse setting helps or deters specific to your setup? Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> I think the decor plays a major role in keeping things civil. They don't have to stare at each other all day every day as in a sparsly decorated or empty tank. "I had to kill him. He was looking at me cross ways...".
Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback. Do you have a full pic of your tank you can post? My guys are small...largest is an A. Amarillo that I am considering giving away to LFS...not that interested anymore but even she is only about 6" and she is by far the largest of the inhabitants. I asked about your decor (and for the pic) to see how I could match it for when my guys/gals get older/larger. Thanks! BTW, that is truly an impressive Dovii!


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## terd ferguson

Here's one from a couple of months ago. Keep in mind, my tank is three feet wide. This gives a a lot of floor space for creating different and seperate territories.


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## cichlidsrule16

Your tank is amazing, wish I had the room to keep some of those. Truly jealous of your predatory tank. Keep the pics coming, very nice.


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## Manoah Marton

This thread is getting better and better! I love the natural look of your tank, and the way the algea is growing on everything. It give's it a really lake appearance.
Great job, and hope this keeps going!!!

Manoah Marton

P.S. Earlier, you mention you fed your fish feeder fish. Do you still do that? And have you ever had any problems with parasites or the like?


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## terd ferguson

cichlidsrule16 said:


> Your tank is amazing, wish I had the room to keep some of those. Truly jealous of your predatory tank. Keep the pics coming, very nice.


Thanks a ton!



Manoah Martin said:


> This thread is getting better and better! I love the natural look of your tank, and the way the algea is growing on everything. It give's it a really lake appearance.
> Great job, and hope this keeps going!!!
> 
> Manoah Marton
> 
> P.S. Earlier, you mention you fed your fish feeder fish. Do you still do that? And have you ever had any problems with parasites or the like?


Thanks! I like the natural look too (obviously, lol). I still give live foods. I use crickets, night crawlers, and comets. I had one bad case of ich back in the beginning. I don't think it was from feeders, but rather a new fish. I got a big UV Sterilizer and haven't had a single issue since. Its a 36 watt Coralife Turbo Twist.


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## Manoah Marton

I see...thanks for the info :thumb:


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## yearmax

Love the post and ur tank looks good. As you will see from my stocking below I have a pretty good mix in my tank. I love my fish and find it to be a very peaceful hobby. Honestly your post is the reason I venture into a mix of cichlids **** if the mix of people we ave in this world can live together then why can fish. I will post up some pictures soon as I just added a couple more today and I think for now my stocking is done. Ihave to get some picures of the new guys and ten I will put up my pic's

Again thanks for your venture and keep up the good work..


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## yearmax

Here are pic's of my tank and my new kids.. Hope you all like. Thanks again Terd for your postings. Keep them coming..

http://s85.photobucket.com/albums/k80/y ... on%20tank/


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## terd ferguson

Everything is still everything. A bit boring to be honest. It will be four years this summer. The bigger fellas are getting a bit long in the tooth so to speak. I've been contemplating lately breaking up the community in order to grow the world's largest dovii.

Thoughts?


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## yearmax

I like the interaction of all th fish together so I guess I would vote on the no side. On the other hand it would be cool to how big the Dovi would get.

I guess you could say i am on the fence...

The better question would be what do you really wnt to do???


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## BigJagLover

Which ever way you go I think would be cool, big help right. Personally if i had 4 years of success in something that's not suppose to be successful, I guess i would get bored as well. So I vote with a heavy heart, to go for the dovii. I mean he's what 15+" now and close to 2 years old. How long are you going to be satifed with just one spectacular fish that's on the back end of fast noticable growth/ that would be my only reservation on the whole thing.


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## Logan Brace

You've really got something good going on man! Congratulations on 1,000 replies!


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## c333davis

I read through the whole thread a while back... fascinating! Love seeing your pictures and hearing the stories. Congrats!


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## dlwn88

Manoah Marton said:


> This thread is getting better and better! I love the natural look of your tank, and the way the algea is growing on everything. It give's it a really lake appearance.
> Great job, and hope this keeps going!!!


How do you successfully pull this off, having the algae grow like that without having it get out of control. Sorry, I'm a little bit new when it comes to freshwater tanks. Mainly have been doing salt water lol.


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## Leighfost

I too have a love for the Parachromis type cichlids. I have one Dovii currently and LOVE him. I also have a Male Jack, Female Jack and Male Convict. NO aggression! They have been living together now for almost a year. I to have made caves and such to give my Dovii a place of his Own, which he protects quite well.

Grats to you! Love you tank!


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## clekchau

wow i just read the whole 67 pages as i'm setting up tank like yours but mine will be all male hopefully

i can't believe how successful you have been with these bruisers, good job. i'm too scared to try it lol


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## ashilli48

where we at on this thing? :fish:


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