# Just An Idea



## Justin1982 (May 28, 2008)

This isn't really a DIY. Maybe it will just help you sleep better at night. Instead of using eggcrate to dispurse the weight of the many large rocks in my tank I have used two large Italian tiles that I had left over from my little kitchen project. I beleive this dispurses the weight perfectly even unlike eggcrate. If you are going to do this just make sure that the tile you choose does not affect the water. Just an idea.


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## greenbirds (Jul 30, 2007)

That seems like a good idea, given the fact that eggcrate costs $11/sheet -- a ridiculous price for cheap plastic IMO. My only concern would be that some tiles have a criss-cross pattern on the bottom... Does anybody think there's a chance stagnant water could become trapped under there, leading to anaerobic activity in time --> Hydrogen sulfide gas?


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## jcushing (Apr 6, 2008)

then flip the tile upsidown and put the smooth side on the bottom


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## greenbirds (Jul 30, 2007)

:thumb: Why didn't I think of that?


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

I did the same thing but before you put that tile down run a bead of silicone like you would to set tile but let the 1/8" bead of silicone dry then put your tile down. Why you ask??? Because with all that weight one imperfection or even a grain of sand could break the bottom of your tank. I used slate tile which looks great when my cichlids dig down to it!!! :thumb: 
I sleep better knowing my tile sits on silicone :zz:


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## kingpoiuy (Jun 9, 2008)

What a good idea!


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## Justin1982 (May 28, 2008)

BenHugs said:


> I did the same thing but before you put that tile down run a bead of silicone like you would to set tile but let the 1/8" bead of silicone dry then put your tile down. Why you ask??? Because with all that weight one imperfection or even a grain of sand could break the bottom of your tank. I used slate tile which looks great when my cichlids dig down to it!!! :thumb:
> I sleep better knowing my tile sits on silicone :zz:


That seems like a good idea but I wasnt really into draining the whole tank so I just moved the rocks to the side of the tank then swept all the gravel away from the middle using a flat ruler. It was pretty easy actually. Took me about 45 minutes.


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

Justin 1982 It sounds like you have already done this if it worked out for you than great.
There is another option out there aswell I have seen a plastic membrain for putting under tile for waterproofing in showers and such this could just be placed under the tile aswell.

As long as precautions have been taken I recommend tile over eggcrate to anyone.


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## spotmonster (Nov 23, 2006)

Well it does sound much cheaper. The silicone idea isn't bad. But without silicone, I don't see any protection from "cracks in glass due to falling rocks". If you're of the crowd that subscribes to this train of thought. The tile can crack and also crack the glass. I believe eggcrate would offer much more protection from this scenario.

But over all I'm not totally sold on any "additional protection". I have eggcrate in my 90 but not my 55. In truth I don't loose sleep over either tank. I'm not sure if I will use it or not in my up and coming 180 set up.


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## Justin1982 (May 28, 2008)

I had actually thought about putting something like styrofoam under the tile before I started but I realized that the tile would basically act as a piece of glass itself and could possibly crack. The tile is flat on the glass there is no way it is cracking.


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## sweede (Oct 26, 2004)

Justin1982 said:


> This isn't really a DIY. Maybe it will just help you sleep better at night. Instead of using eggcrate to dispurse the weight of the many large rocks in my tank I have used two large Italian tiles that I had left over from my little kitchen project. I beleive this dispurses the weight perfectly even unlike eggcrate. If you are going to do this just make sure that the tile you choose does not affect the water. Just an idea.


contrary to whats assumed. placing a flat object ontop of another flat object, then placing an irregular shape on top of everything does not make the "wieght" spread out.

Using eggcrate also has the advantage that if something is dropped, the plastic absorbs the impact and the glass has a better chance of surviving.

if you use a hard tile, theres a good chance that dropping something on the tile will just transfer the force of the impact to the object below it (think of two balls in billards that are touching and hitting the cue ball to the first one transfers motion of the cue ball through the 2nd ball and makes the 3rd ball move without moving the 2nd ball and stopping the cue ball).


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

sweede said:


> Using eggcrate also has the advantage that if something is dropped, the plastic absorbs the impact and the glass has a better chance of surviving.
> 
> if you use a hard tile, theres a good chance that dropping something on the tile will just transfer the force of the impact to the object below it (think of two balls in billards that are touching and hitting the cue ball to the first one transfers motion of the cue ball through the 2nd ball and makes the 3rd ball move without moving the 2nd ball and stopping the cue ball).


I don't necessarily think the tile is a great idea, but your argument is backwards. The plastic eggcrate will absolutely not absorb any appreciable amount of impact. Its crappy cheap plastic! I tried to find the sticky or post where someone contacted an AE who proved eggcrate does not help distribute weight so as not to illicit scathing responses, but basically a little piece of plastic will not absorb the impact because its plastic. Its like saying if you put a layer of cotton on the bottom it would help. The plastic eggcrate will just break or bend if you dropped something on it. The tile is hard so that _could_ actually absorb the impact.

The pool ball example is not a legitimate analogy because you are talking about two objects in motion. The rock and eggracte is one object in motion and one fixed. And the bigger issue in your example above, you are not comparing it to anything. You need to think about if you used the pool balls, and then for comparison you use a hollow plastic ball, like a wiffle ball. What would happen to the wiffle ball? Its simple physics, momentum is mass times velocity. By definition a pool ball would send the wiffle ball flying. A large mass at a certain velocity will cause a small mass to move at a large velocity.

Think about it this way. Pretend you are a fish tank. If you lied down and someone was going to drop a large rock on you would you rather be protected by tile or eggcrate? Especially if the rock was pointy end down. The plastic would crush under the rock and you would feel like the eggcrate wasn't even there. Now, if you had the tile protecting you it would still hurt, but not as bad.

I can see it now... the aquarists version of a bulletproof vest...eggcrate! Hahahaha.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Sweede's idea is not backwards. He's kept up with what has happened in the last fifty years. Compressible materials that are weak enough to be destroyed in an impact are what protect us in the modern car. Fenders and bumpers used to be harder and tougher. The bumper withstood great impact, but the impact was transferred to other more expensive parts of the vehicle, and to the driver and passengers.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

I agree with what you say Mcdaphnia. And for that matter I wouldn't disagree with the heart of Sweede's comments. But I cant see the connection of the theory to eggcrate.

Bumpers do not use plastic. In fact those materials are made exactly for the application you are talking about. Those materials use a lattice cell structure usually out of foam (even though foam is plastic). I would not equate eggcrate to a new modern bumper but an old fashioned chrome bumper. Even on new bumpers, they have plastic covers over the shock absorbing materials - what happens to the plastic? It breaks and falls apart. I dont think an eggcrate bumper would receive a 5 start crash rating. I guess I am having a hard time seeing why people think eggcrate is so magical.

I am not saying there are not materials that could achieve this purpose, but its not going to be a plastic eggcrate.

I finally found the thread I was looking for...

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... c&&start=0

It's an interesting read. It should be a sticky. Unfortunately the conclusion has not caught on. Note it does not decry the use of eggcrate - just not for weight distribution purposes. I wish more people on this forum would read that thread. it's one of my pet peeves.

But since this is one of those derisive topics I will consider my soap box removed. I move on to a thread about DIY stand design, or how much GPH a tank should have, hahaha.


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

Well this is where I jump back in and mention as in my earlier post that I run 1/8"beads of silicone under my tile. I have the hard protection and weight spreading of the tile but the impact absorbing of the silicone and it looks great when it gets dug up :wink:

I'm not much of an eggcrate fan for the bottom of a tank it just seems wrong (even the name)


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## bentcountershaft (Nov 23, 2007)

One thing I like about using egg crate is that it provides a relatively non-slip surface for the rocks to rest upon. A tile, being smooth offers little protection against rocks sliding out of position and thus preventing one of (but not all) the situations that cause rocks to fall. The thing to use for this that is almost perfect is a bath/shower floor mat. The rubber would absorb impact better than most things and it would be a non-slip surface for the rocks to rest on. The downside is that I'm willing to bet they have some sort of mildew resistant coating on them which would of course kill your fish, thus making them completely useless in our application. I've been considering trying a small piece of the thick rubber mats used on garage floors (some workplaces use them for people to stand on that would normally be standing on concrete all day, supposed to help their back) and testing their effects on water and aquatic life. If someone makes these that don't leach chems or have any ill effects, I'd think that would be pretty close to a perfect solution.


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## sweede (Oct 26, 2004)

boredatwork said:


> The pool ball example is not a legitimate analogy because you are talking about two objects in motion. The rock and eggracte is one object in motion and one fixed. And the bigger issue in your example above, you are not comparing it to anything. You need to think about if you used the pool balls, and then for comparison you use a hollow plastic ball, like a wiffle ball. What would happen to the wiffle ball? Its simple physics, momentum is mass times velocity. By definition a pool ball would send the wiffle ball flying. A large mass at a certain velocity will cause a small mass to move at a large velocity.


Not detailing the flaws in the rest of your argument, I'll highlight this one, since i do play pool quite often.

in billards, if your object ball is frozen to another ball (frozen meaning touching), neither ball is in motion.

http://artpad.art.com/?k53bw6fxhws

This is a small variation of a basic shot in billards that's done medium stroke, just below ball center, commonly called a stop shot.

If you replace the cue ball with a rock, the orange ball with your egg crate, whiffleball or another object, and the yellow ball is the glass.

dropping the rock on the plastic forces the plastic to flex. when objects move (plastic.. flexing), it uses energy and disapates it through the plastic.

if you replace the orange ball with another solid object such as tile, if the falling speed of the rock is greater than the amount of energy the tile can absorb, then the tile shatters and the rock continues to fall.

While the tile may or may not absorb all of the impact, it could absorb enough of the impact that the glass flexes and absorbs the rest.

Further comments above suggest that car bumpers are based on a similar concept (which, they are), but instead of using rigid plastic they use foam (polyesterne or polystyerene, spelling probaby is rong).

if you find a foam product that's suitable for use in a fish tank without needing to be sealed, by all means use that over eggcrate, tiles, whatever, if you wish to absorb damage from falling rocks as it's far superior in its impact absorption abilities.


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## sweede (Oct 26, 2004)

Now that i think about it when it comes to load distribution, the answer is quite simple..

take equal height, width, thickness of eggcrate , solid plastic, ceramic tile, whatever and add weight to it and see which one bends or breaks first.

My guess is that is going to be (in order from weakest to strongest, in terms of flex).
Solid Plastic
Egg Crate
Tile

In terms of cost? Egg Crate is by far cheaper and by far superior.

However, based on the other URL referenced in this thread where the manufactur states that the AG aquariums can support 8,000-10,000 PSI ?

If you have a rock that weights say, 300lbs and the total contact area of said rock is only 30 square inches? you're exerting 10psi onto the tank bed, over the contact area.

Now, i'm not sure how much pressure water is exerting, but i know it's not 8,000 PSI...


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## Justin1982 (May 28, 2008)

Well some people may have taken this post I started a while back a little too far.

All I can say is that after 3 months I have had not catastrophes using the Italian tile.
I hate the look of egg crate the fish expose when they dig their little pits, bowls and caves. All I can say is that I am much more confident and happy using a QUALITY, well made tile that matches the color of the sand in my tank. So if the tile becomes exposed when the fish start digging. It doesnâ€™t matter because the tile is color matched to the gravel.

Personally I donâ€™t even think the amount of weight that is dispersed on tempered glass as being the problem. I think it is more important to really take your time when stacking boulders and rocks in your tank. Glue helps, but with the size of the rocks in my tank, I wouldnâ€™t consider the glue reliable. Always make sure your rock pile is snug. :thumb:


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

I'm with you Justin1982 :thumb: 
The only difference is I put protection between the tile and the bottom of my tank.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> However, based on the other URL referenced in this thread where the manufactur states that the AG aquariums can support 8,000-10,000 PSI ?
> 
> If you have a rock that weights say, 300lbs and the total contact area of said rock is only 30 square inches? you're exerting 10psi onto the tank bed, over the contact area.
> 
> Now, i'm not sure how much pressure water is exerting, but i know it's not 8,000 PSI...


Tank manufacturers are well aware that we intend to put rocks in aquariums and build them to hold 
them. Tanks will hold more rocks than you could ever put in there. I wish more would read the other 
thread too. All eggcrate does is absorb some impact, so you don't end up chipping the glass if you drop
a rock. It's not needed for weight distribution. So whether it actually does or not is a moot point.

Anything you use whether it's tile or eggcrate can trap detritus and anaerobic pockets can form no 
matter how flat the tile.

Give the tank manufacturers some credit. They know we need to sleep well at night too. Tanks blow out 
from improper support on bad stands, not from rocks, and no amount of eggcrate will help to avoid that. 
Notice that warranties are only honored when a tank is set on a proper stand, and they mention 
nothing about being void if you overfill with rocks.


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## nick a (Apr 9, 2004)

While I think the tile is a creative option to eggcrate--the basics that prov356 just stated are still true.



> My guess is that is going to be (in order from weakest to strongest, in terms of flex).
> Solid Plastic
> Egg Crate
> Tile


Sweede, you've fallen in the same conceptual trap that many seem to. The bare fact is that anything placed directly atop a plate of glass can only FLEX as much as the plate of glass below it.


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

I think what justin1982 is trying to get at here is that he is using an alternative to eggcrate that looks way better when exposed. Anyone keeping africans knows its not if but when will the tank bottom be exposed. I use slate in my tanks and could almost go without substrate. It looks great. A bonus with the tile if done right it will protect the tanks bottom. As far as cost tile in that small of a quantity doesn't cost much and could come within $10 of eggcrate. :thumb:


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

The "discussion" centers around the question of "Does the eggcrate, tile, or whatever, have any real function"?

1. Some would say that it does not offer any additional protection so there is no point in using it. 
2. Some would say that it does offer protection so it is worthwhile using it.
3. Some would say that either way using it can't be bad so why not us it.

Like most "hot topics" they usually spin out of control devolving into a useless waste of time, which is a shame. I actually have it on my agenda to do an analysis of the eggcrate scenario to get some definitive answers, but don't expect me to get around to it anytime soon. I need to have my brother do all the work since he is the mechanical engineer.

The point that prov makes was actually posted in an extremely long thread a long time ago by an AE for one of the tank manufacturers. One would think that would be pretty definitive source, but that didn't seem to do anything to put an end to the controversy.


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## pmac (Dec 1, 2008)

I just used a couple layers of high-density foam on the bottom of my tank, I got it really cheap off of a roll from the hardware store. It seems to work really well


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## brycerb (Dec 23, 2007)

I just recently solved my problem by getting rid of my large rock caves and went will slate tiles. I went to Lowes and bought a box of tiles for $20, then had my 5 year old son smash them into many pieces. Lastly I spred them all out on the living room floor and had my son grab whatever piece he liked and just stacked them howerever I could, kind of like a Teepee on rock. The end result was way more natural looking and provides way more caves for fry then before. They don't reach 1/2 as high as before, but I like it better then the organized look. Plus without the hieght their is no real risk of falling rocks.


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## brycerb (Dec 23, 2007)

I just recently solved my problem by getting rid of my large rock caves and went will slate tiles. I went to Lowes and bought a box of tiles for $20, then had my 5 year old son smash them into many pieces. Lastly I spred them all out on the living room floor and had my son grab whatever piece he liked and just stacked them howerever I could, kind of like a Teepee of rock. The end result was way more natural looking and provides way more caves for fry then before. They don't reach 1/2 as high as before, but I like it better then the organized look. Plus without the height their is no real risk of falling rocks.


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## brianmccord2001 (Apr 9, 2008)

I just use left over blue styrofoam to line the bottom of my tanks. Cheap, effective. You guys really get into these discussions, don't you? opcorn:


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## Justin1982 (May 28, 2008)

"Just an idea" That probably got a few to many responses. Although we all got a little more educated on the different setups people are using.


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