# Cynotilapia afra vs Metriclima pulpican



## ladybugzcrunch (Jul 26, 2009)

Can someone point out the difference between Cynotilapia afra (Metangula) and Metriclima pulpican? The pictures in the profile look nearly identical. Is there some defining trait that is not obvious in the profiles?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

A couple of cynotilapia were reclassified to metriaclima based on eating habits observed in the lake. Before that they were mainly differentiated by the shape of their teeth. The afra are smaller and less aggressive.


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## why_spyder (Mar 2, 2006)

The _Met. pulpican/kingsizei_ are more common. 

Also, I am not so sure the profiles are quite accurate - at least not up-to-date.


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## ladybugzcrunch (Jul 26, 2009)

How would I be able to tell the difference in tooth shape? There is not a good head shot of the Cynotilapia afra (Metangula) in the profile, isn't the head of Metriclima more elongated and Cynotilapia more compact roundish shaped? Does anyone know what the female Cynotilapia afra (Metangula) look like? You were all so kind to ID my fish on here as M. pulpican but I want to be sure that is what they are. The place I got them from is holding their ground and says they are Cynotilapia afra. Now I have 20 fry from them and want to trade them in. I want to be able to tell the LFS what they are without looking foolish  I also read online that M. pulpican males begin to color as males at 1/2 inch. Do Cynotilapia color this early? If not this may be the key to my questions unless of course I end up with 20 females My luck, I would not be surprised :lol:


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## why_spyder (Mar 2, 2006)

Most stores will get in M. pulpican as 'Cyno afra white top' or something similar - that doesn't mean that is the correct name. Goin' by the subtle changes in the head isn't a good way to ID a species - at least not in this case.

I don't know of a single mbuna that has males that color up at 1/2".


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## ladybugzcrunch (Jul 26, 2009)

Darn, I thought I could prove it that way  This guy I got them from breeds them, like ALOT of them and says they are afra. I agree, they do not look like the hara like he says BUT it is hard to say whether they are not some kind of Cynotilapia. BTW he was livid when I suggested they were Metriclima. He has so many Cynotilapia variants I have a hard time arguing with him so I just said okay it must be Cynotilapia. I now have one male 4 females and one unknown that looks like a female sometimes and a male other times. I separated this unknown and it looked more maleish but not like my confirmed male. After 2 weeks I just dumped this fish back into the tank with the male and 3 other females and it fit right back in. Not a nip or anything. The dominant male treats this fish like a female so maybe a dominant female? The other female the same size has held twice. Any who, they range from 2-3 inches. The smaller females are prettier than the large one. They have a bluish silver shine and can display barring. The babies start out translucent gray. At about 5/8 inch the babies start to show bars if you look closely. They still look grayish at this point. I only have one 5/8 baby (luckily found it after mom spit in main tank!) to go by but just stripped 19 more fry from her on Thursday. Any more clues


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## why_spyder (Mar 2, 2006)

Does this guy keep Ad's books around? When was the last time they checked one? If he knows his _Cyno_'s - he should know the location they came from if they aren't the _M. pulpican_. Just having them called _C. afra_ doesn't tell you, me, or the rest of us much of anything.

He may not be so livid if Ad's 3rd or 4th Edition was shown to him....


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Well first off, Cynotilapia sp. hara is not an afra, so you have him right there. Second, some of the cynotilapia have been reclassified as metriaclima, so last year he could have been correct.

The point I was trying to make is that originally cynotilapia and metriaclima were differentiated by tooth shape. I think the only way you can determine that is via autopsy, LOL. Well maybe a really excellent close-up pic of their open mouths.

BUT...

In the 4th edition, in spite of tooth shape, Ad moved some of the cyno's to the metriaclima category based on observations of their feeding behavior in the lake.

So unless we and our fishies can go to Africa and with our scuba gear, I don't see how we can tell the difference.

If you care about proper ID, the only way I've ever figured out to do it is buy a named fish with collection point from one of the very most reputable dealers in the US. When we say this, we mean a name that would be recognized and respected by the members of Cichlid-forum. I'm trying to say it may be impossible to buy a fish without complete scientific name and collection point and later determine what it is.


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## ladybugzcrunch (Jul 26, 2009)

Hmmmm. Okay I see your point. Unfortunately, this is a site sponsor we are talking about so I would say he is reputable. I did send him the link to the profile for M. pulpican but he said no they were Cynotilapia. Maybe he is just a little behind and like you said was right last year before they categorized? He also categorizes kenyi in Pseudotrophus instead of Metriclima so maybe he is just behind. Here is the man in question a few weeks ago. He has not gotten much bigger but he has lots more egg spots, I count 5.
















I can get more recent pics of the male, females and fry if need be. What would you call them if you were trading in fry?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I thought in an earlier discussion you said the females were drab? Exactly what did he sell them as? Did he give you a correct scientific name and a collection point? Not doing that does not mean he is not reputable, it just means they are tank raised fish, the collection point has been lost, and the buyer is accepting them on that basis.

Kind of like, if I sell you Red Zebras, you are not going to later come and ask me whether they are metriaclima estherae minos reef. He's thinking: If you cared about that sort of thing, you would have bought the ones I had labeled that way. (Or from another vendor that sells them labeled that way.)

I guess I'd say "they were sold to me as xxx". Unless you are able to verify that it's not that fish. For example, if vendor says it's cynotilapia sp. hara and females are not blue.


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## justinf67 (Jul 19, 2009)

she got a pulpican...just like I did. I have the same guy. the male is def pretty. females are ugly.....I say its blatant misrepresentation...I ordered from the vendor in utah. here is a direct image that i ordered from








This fish is labelled as a hara. that is exactly what it is...what they sent out is a pulpican. female pulpicans are drab and ugly... Whats sad is the hara that I ordered were a replacement. I asked for it on the phone and he told me the females were pretty....bs... hara females are def pretty. not pulpican females...

ladybugz, u have a pulpican. if it was a hara, the female would be pretty...also, look at the picture i posted. its similar, but the barring is thinner, and runs up to the face on the hara...


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## ladybugzcrunch (Jul 26, 2009)

Thanks Justin, you are right about the vendor. =D> =D> My new females were also replacements. I do not think the new females are that ugly (I have seen much worse) but I did expect prettier. I think I will turn the fry in as M. pulpican and be done with it. I defiantly can see that these are not sp. hara but thought maybe they were some other Cynotilapia and the vendor got confused? I am glad to hear I was not the only one that saw something very wrong with my order of hara. Out of curiosity, did you get REAL hara from this vendor before? You say you got them as a replacement. I asked for a replacement because one of the females looked weird and the other had black marks on it so they sent me two more which look much better but are more shiny silver bluish not blue. Also, did you complain about the mistake? I did but they stood their ground on the species. When I asked for collection point they said Likoma which is also consistent with the idea that they are pulpican. However, they deny this is anything but Cynotilapia. All I wanted to know is what kind of friggin fish I have  Why can't they just admit their mistake and relabel the fish correctly.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Metriaclima pulpican is/was formerly known as cynotilapia pulpican. Also formerly identified as pseudotropheus sp. 'kingsizei'.

The classification as metriaclima pulpican is recent, the 3rd edition listed no such name. It takes a long time for new classifications to be recognized by everyone in the industry.


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## justinf67 (Jul 19, 2009)

ladybugz, i had ordered demasoni, mbamba, and saulosi... before they shipped, they called to tell me they were out of saulosi, so I asked for the white tops instead. i had told him I wanted a species that had pretty females as well. he assured me the females were pretty. ended up with the pulpicans. i got 12 demasoni, and even those were messed up. out of the 12, id say 5 or 6 had barring issues...its taken me some time at my lfs, but my demasoni are now all correctly barred...mbamba were great though...needless to say, I havent ordered from them again.. internet ordering from the vendors on here hasnt been kind to me. my only good experience was someone off aquabid strangely enough...

djransome, it is still a blatant misrepresentation of fish... it is labelled on the website as white top afra "hara" not only is it not "hara", but they send a completely different fish from the picture that they list....thats pretty blatant to me... dont believe me, just check out the link on the site, which i cant mention... my females are ugly as sin by the way. they are brown with a TINY bit of silver showing....


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I understand your disappointment that the fish you received were not what you wanted, and I think we've aired that issue. If there are any further discussions about this or any other vendor, if you would place your comments in Reviews I would appreciate it. Thanks!


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## ladybugzcrunch (Jul 26, 2009)

DJRansome said:


> Metriaclima pulpican is/was formerly known as cynotilapia pulpican. Also formerly identified as pseudotropheus sp. 'kingsizei'.
> 
> The classification as metriaclima pulpican is recent, the 3rd edition listed no such name. It takes a long time for new classifications to be recognized by everyone in the industry.


I see your point there and that makes sense. What book do we believe  Some of the current works I have been reading contradicts one another, some experts are lumpers and some are spliters. Others say that all mbuna (wild) have so much gene flow due to natural hybridization that it is difficult to impossible to tell the difference between species even using genetics. So how do those fish tell which female is their own kind when the female is brown? Many peacocks have brown females that look all the same and several mbuna look VERY similar. Maybe that is why it changes so much? Thanks for all the comments BTW.


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## why_spyder (Mar 2, 2006)

ladybugzcrunch said:


> some experts are lumpers and some are spliters.


This is very true. As far as I know, any _Cynotilapia_ collector I have met is a splitter - I mean just look at all the color variances between the _C. afra_ species. If you 'lump' these together and start breeding different locations together - all the fry will NOT look like the parents, some will look like the father, some will look like the mother, and some will be a hodge-podge of the two. But if you breed the same location with the same location - all the fry will look just like both parents. :thumb: That's a win for the splitters! :lol:



ladybugzcrunch said:


> Others say that all mbuna (wild) have so much gene flow due to natural hybridization that it is difficult to impossible to tell the difference between species even using genetics. So how do those fish tell which female is their own kind when the female is brown?


The few people that I have heard talk about constant gene flow between locations weren't credible people - but I haven't heard this from a lot of people. The problem with some of this thought is the barriers between locations (valleys in the floor, islands, long sandy beaches, etc.) that _prevent_ gene flow. If the gene flow was constant - there _should_ be a more homogenized color pattern, body shape, etc. It is the barriers that help to create the many different 'locale' variations that we see in species like _C. afra_.

As far as females finding the right mate - I think alot of it is instincts. Females have to find the right mate or her spawn will be for nothing basically*. Hybridization does occur in the wild - but very seldomly. I think Ad Konings, with his many many hours of underwater observation, has only seen one or two hybrid fish. Just two! *The only way a hybrid would carry on its genetic traits is if females preferred his colors over their same species' colors - and continually spawned with him. Over time this could yield a new species, IMO.

Now to really boggle the mind - look at _Metriaclima_ sp. "Kingsizei Lupingu" from Lupingu (page 183 in the 4th Edition of the 'Malawi Bible' :lol: ). At that one location there is FOUR different male color morphs established - and all are the same species. Males range from predominantly yellow to predominantly blue - with two variations in-between. Talk about confusion for the female. And did I forget to mention - there is a _C._ sp. "Lion" that is found along side these with identical coloration as one of the male color morphs? The only way to tell them apart is to look at the teeth!

Sorry for the rant that is all over the place - but I love talking about _Cynotilapia_.  Maybe that is why I'm not welcomed to many mbuna parties....


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## why_spyder (Mar 2, 2006)

ladybugzcrunch said:


> When I asked for collection point they said Likoma which is also consistent with the idea that they are pulpican.


http://www.malawi-dream.info/Cynotilapi ... Island.htm
http://www.riftlakes.com/cichlids/cynot ... fra_e.html






This is about the only _C. afra_ that I have seen that was labeled Likoma that doesn't have a 'red-top'.

I kind of wonder if LiveFishDirect got the rights to use *YogurtPooh*'s _C._ sp. "Hara" photo to represent their stock...


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## ladybugzcrunch (Jul 26, 2009)

Great info, and that link leads to a beautiful set up!


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## ladybugzcrunch (Jul 26, 2009)

justinf67 said:


> its similar, but the barring is thinner, and runs up to the face on the hara...


My guy has a bar on his face?


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## ladybugzcrunch (Jul 26, 2009)

Okay, I know you guys are most likely tired of me second guessing you but I am not convinced that the fish I have are M. pulpican. Somehow they just do not look like it to me. The guy I got them from says they are Cynotilapia afra from Likoma. Whyspyder: Thank you for the GREAT link to the white top from Likoma. There is almost no info on these fish, do you know any more about them. You are the Cyno guy so I thought you would know. My females are not as pretty as the male but they ARE NOT brown. I could only find one good side view picture of the female C. afra Likoma white top. I am sure there are different qualities of these fish and wish I could find more female pictures or pictures of fry even! My females change color by the second. When they get angry, they show bars. When they are scared, they get dark. When they are content, they are pretty and have a blue purple shine (very infrequent and next to impossible to get a picture of because they are scared of the camera!). Here is the most decent picture I could get of two of them:








They do not look like pulpican females to me and the male has a different face than pulpican. Perhaps they are Cynotilapia afra white tops just not white top hara?


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## why_spyder (Mar 2, 2006)

IMO, if you want to play it safe - just go with the name of _C. afra_ Likoma because that is what you bought them as. The name given is not obviously WRONG (i.e. the coloration isn't way off, nor is the body shape, temperament, etc.) so that would be the course of action I would take.

I don't know much about the _C. afra_ from Likoma - I have only seen them for sale a time or two. It is hard to say whether these species could be one in the same with _M. pulpican_ - there is always a bit of variance of coloration and body shape within a population. Maingano Island is just off Likoma Island's shore - so depending on where the fish are collected a species from 'Likoma Island' could very well have came from or near Maingano Island. I don't know how much variance there is in _C. afra_ around Likoma Island, but I have seen online the 'white top' and 'red top' versions.

Also, you need to get a good look at the teeth. This may have to wait until the fish are 3" or more - but their teeth will tell you quite a bit.

Again, if you the seller says _C. afra_ Likoma - go with that. At least you have a location... :thumb:


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## ladybugzcrunch (Jul 26, 2009)

Okay, thanks. Tell me about the teeth. The teeth on my fish seem big compared to my other fish. What am I looking for exactly. My very large yellow lab has teeth I can see but they are very tiny and look reddish and have big spaces in between. I can not see the teeth on my kenyi at all and he is just as big. The suspect fish have teeth that look different like lots of them, big and close together, zigzag like. It also looks like the bottom row stick out farther than the top row but perhaps that is just because the mouth is slightly open. The male has whitish teeth but the largest females teeth look to be a little more yellow? I know Cynotilapia have unicusped teeth but how can I tell if there are two peaks or one per tooth when I can just see that they are teeth  The male and largest female are 3 inches or so now.

Edit: On a side note, the seller is selling them as Cynotilapia sp. "hara" White Top Afra but when I questioned them about the species and location they just said C. afra collection point Likoma consistently. They did not seem to push that they were hara but did give me a caps lock email when I suggested Metriclima.


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## why_spyder (Mar 2, 2006)

Found this online:

A) _C. afra_ Jalo Reef
B) _Met. greshakei_ (albino) - or similar _M. zebra_-type
C) _Labeo. fuelleborni_








http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/ ... ?highres=y

_Metriaclima_ teeth are usually smaller and more like a fine comb (for feeding off aufwuchs)- _Cynotilapia_ have bigger teeth that have noticeable gaps between them (less specialized for feeding, possibly more specialized for fighting/sparring).


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## why_spyder (Mar 2, 2006)

A real good close-up:









http://www.african-cichlid.com/AfraCobue.htm


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## ladybugzcrunch (Jul 26, 2009)

Wow, that must be some great camera!!!! Better than my eyes!

Here is the best shot I could get of his mouth. You can not see much from the pic, I know but you can see the teeth right. 








This angle makes him look like a fat head lol. I had to hide in front of the tank and wait for him to come to the glass. Maybe when I move them into the 75 I can get a good shot of them when I catch them?


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