# Cichlid mouthbrooding vs the Egg Tumbler science experiment



## Tropheus_Man_77 (Apr 14, 2016)

I have conducted a science experiment regarding the egg tumbler and African cichlid mouthbrooding. I have put in my own research to find out which is better. The way i did this is from counting the cichlid eggs after striping the eggs out of the mother's mouth, and than waiting until the fry are free swimming, and make a percentage of survival our of how many are left from the begging number. With the mouthbrooding, I would strip the eggs and wait until a mother picked them back up. Than I would count the fry while being in their own tank with the mother afterward. What was interesting was that the first three mothers I tested spat the eggs before i could even get a chance to collect the data. I did 4 tests for the egg tumbler, and 4 for the mother cichlid. the mother cichlid spat 3 times on her own, which makes 0% for those three tests. 
I did in fact get the to count the eggs, and get the mother to hold. This mother ended up having about 93% survival rates for her young. But when everything is averaged down, that makes the percentage in the 20's. The tumbler on the other hand had survival rates around 80% the whole time! Everything averaged for the egg tumbler was about 83%. For the mothbrooding mother african cichlids, about 23% 
That shows that when breeding african cichlids in captivity, you will most likely have the highest percentages with the egg tumbler. If scientists were to repopulate endangered species of cichlids in the wild, they would have to find the fastest way. They would have to use the egg tumbler.


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## Warhawk77 (Jan 8, 2014)

That is interesting info. But I have 2 questions.

1- How old was the mother that keep the eggs and was this her first spawn? I ask because if she was a first time spawn the data isn't accurate as it takes some females a few tries to learn what they are doing.

2- Also out of the batches in the tumblers how many where deformed or stunted? Most fish will eat fry and eggs that have issues so if you need to only count healthy fry.

I will say my experience is mostly with American cichilds but very few of my females got it right the first time, with the 2nd or 3rd spawn they knew how to do it and they did much better. Most parents will remove fry that won't be able to grow up to be healthy and they do the same with eggs. I'm not saying your info is not correct, I know if you pull the eggs you will normally get more fry. If it was me I would do the test again with the same females to see if the results hold the same.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Also doesn't the fact that you stripped the mom and let her pick the babies back up distort the results? Would that be a true test of holding?


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## Fish Jerk (Mar 9, 2016)

If they spit them out it usually means they are infertile.

The mouthbrooding percentage is actually very close to 100%. If it's a batch I care about I will open up the mom's mouth with my thumb and actually count them - but not take them out. That is probably where most or all of your casualties came from.

There is a big advantage to the egg tumbler, though. The whole point is to reduce the time between broods and allow the mother to continue eating normally right away, which will increase the total number of broods dramatically, and lessen the chance of the mother dying off. So you get 80% survival of 10 broods instead of 99% survival of 5 broods, and 100% survival for mother.

That's why the egg tumbler exists and sees use. If you have a wild mouthbrooder and really want to pump out some fry with her to sell quickly, then an egg tumbler is the only thing that makes sense.


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## Tropheus_Man_77 (Apr 14, 2016)

It was not the mothers first spawn, and I made sure that all of the eggs were healthy by stripping them 3 days after. And I made sure that her picking the eggs back up didn't distort the results by making sure it hold for at least 24 hours. And I made sure that they were fertile because I only counted the ones that I saw breed, just to make sure that the female didn't pick up her eggs without fertilizing them. -And thanks for replying-I might try another one of these tests with your guy's advice


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## Warhawk77 (Jan 8, 2014)

Fish Jerk said:


> If they spit them out it usually means they are infertile.
> 
> The mouthbrooding percentage is actually very close to 100%. If it's a batch I care about I will open up the mom's mouth with my thumb and actually count them - but not take them out. That is probably where most or all of your casualties came from.
> 
> ...


That makes sense I didn't know why the tumblers get used but I'm not in the breeding business but good info for sure.


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