# Trying to create happiness



## 1fish_2fish (Aug 14, 2013)

Hi all I'm new to the forum and have been reading quite a few posts about different types of cichlid that can and can not go together. I was wondering if you all could help me create a bit more hamony in my tank.

I have a 36 gallon bow front aquarium (one of those starter kits from petsmart). As of right now I have 4 cichlids and 1 pleco (links below... idk what kind they are. Also I'm trading blue one in today, it harrasses everthing in the tank). I kinda fell into cichlids and don't know much about which ones can coexist well together.





































I saw a Red Banded Moorii in the pet store the other day and fell in love. In your opinion can he be introduced and not cause to much upset in the tank? I would like to add two more if possible. Is that ok for the size of tank? What kinds would you recommend?

On a side note i'm in the midst of redecorating my tank. I bought 4 cichlid stones and I also have a 'downed helicopter' for hiding place. I was going to try live plants. Any recommendations?


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## amcvettec (May 11, 2012)

36G unfortunately is too small for most Lake Malawi Cichlids due to their aggression. I definitely wouldn't add the Moorii - from a different lake and not compatible with what you have.

You can try to keep what you have and hope for the best. Or you can restock with something that would work in a small tank. Right now you have 4 different species that will all battle for territory that your tank doesn't have.


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## Pseudeotropheus BB (Jan 24, 2013)

Your best bet for a tank of this size is a single dwarf species tank. If Petsmart is the only local fish shop in your area your selection is pretty much limited to Demasoni and unfortunately this is not the best beginner fish due to there highly aggressive nature towards one another. Another possibility would be Iodotropheus sprengerae (Rusties) which is a fantastic beginner fish. If you are fortunate enough to have a local fish shop who specializes in aquarium fish than there are numerous options with the most popular being Saulosi due to male/female color. Permutts are also a favorite of mine.

Your best bet would be to research the forum's library and species profiles and soak up as much information as possible. African Cichlids require very specific conditions for a compatible environment.


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## 1fish_2fish (Aug 14, 2013)

Thank you guys so much for your help


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## FlyHigh (Nov 15, 2009)

after doing your research to determine what kinds of fish you want, consider buying them from an online vendor. There are some very good online stores where you can get just about any type of fish you want delivered to your home. Don't limit yourself to the small selection and usual poor quality from the big chain stores.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

When folks use terms like 'happiness' and 'harmony' in conjunction with fish, I am always a little worried about the fish being thought of too much in human terms. Fish largely follow certain genetically programmed behaviors. If you want to keep them in a captive environment, it's a good idea to learn what those behaviors are for the fish you want to keep, and set up the tank so that it best accommodates those behaviors.

All the cichlids you keep are mbuna from Lake Malawi in Africa. In the wild they live in large groups of fish of the same species, and they constantly interact with each other to establish a hacking order, meaning each fish needs to know at all times who is above and below it in the hierarchy. For this purpose, the fish are constantly chasing each other, with the sub-dominant individual swimming away from the dominant one. Serious fights or exhaustion due to stress rarely occur, because in the wild they have an ocean-sized lake at their disposal.

To keep them in the constraints of a tank, it is beneficial to keep as large a group as your tank allows and more females than males (1m to 3-4f), because males are usually dominant and appear more aggressive. Unless you are keeping dwarf species of mbuna like P. saulosi, a tank of at least 4' length is recommended. Even if everything works well, an mbuna tank appears always somewhat hectic, compared to for example a South American dwarf cichlid tank, where the fish are pair-bonding and not constantly engaged in maintaining a hacking order. South American dwarf cichlid would be one good choice for a 36G bowfront, but of course there are many others.

Best of luck!


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## 1fish_2fish (Aug 14, 2013)

I understand the pecking order. And they are fish, they are animals, they need to figure out their living arrangements. I kind of just fell into cichlid and even at the aquarium stores here I wasn't able to get much help on proper set up or fish to tank ratio. So now I have what I have and I really do enjoy the fish but now I'm in a position where I want to help them be happy (relative term). I'm slowly learning about them and trying to figure out how to help them sestain, to some extent, with what I have. To attempt to have them live in fishy "harmony". Someday (soon if I had it my way) I would love to step up to a 55g. That is what I was originally going to do but financially I had other things I need to take care of so I settled on my 36g. And again fell into cichlids but haven't had any real help with how to set it up or what needed to happen. Thank you all for all your help


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

If you're stuck with Petsmart selections, I would suggest returning your fish and exchange them for 8 Yellow labs. They may work in your tank. Try to end up with one male and 4 girls.

Just starting out? My guess is they didn't tell you anything about cycling a tank. Is your tank cycled?


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## 1fish_2fish (Aug 14, 2013)

I have a couple local stores around and I think I've gone to ever one lol. One actually did explain some stuff about cycling it. It's been up for about a month and I had many tropical fish casualties before I tried cichlids (the ph straight from tape is like 8.0). So with cichlids my tank has been functioning well. I test my water when I do changes and I try to do little like 10% changes every week. That's really all they were kinda helpful with though. No one really seems to have much clue about cichlids or atleast no one has helped me with them lol. So like I said earlier I'm really tryin to figure out how to get my tank to function as peacefully as possible (fully aware that cichlids aren't exactly peaceful lol)


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

A lot of newcomers to the hobby expect to get good advice from the people working at the stores where they buy their fish. Unfortunately that's working out far too rarely. Sure, there are some hobbyists who run stores and have tremendous knowledge that they are willing to share. But as a rule the employees in chain stores are overworked and underpaid, and could sell automotive supplies as well as aquarium fish - having knowledge of neither one.



1fish_2fish said:


> So now I have what I have and I really do enjoy the fish but now I'm in a position where I want to help them be happy (relative term).


What you have right now is a bunch of juvenile fish who are not displaying any adult behavior yet, but are playing around practicing what life might be like as an adult. At that age virtually all kinds of fish can be kept together and will grow up in the same tank just fine. I regularly grow out Frontosa and Tropheus together, but as adults I would never keep them in the same tank! When your fish reach maturity they will need a lot more space than your current tank can offer. I totally understand your desire to make do with what you have, but I am afraid you either need to get a tank suitable for your fish or fish suitable for your tank. If you don't do this, soon enough you will be pulling dead fish out of your tank again, and we all know how little fun that it.

Your stocking list consists of various mixed mbuna of one per species, which is not recommended, and you have quite an expensive tank - and one that offers plenty of interesting stocking options. I would recommend returning the fish to the store and following the stocking advice given by a number of members. A colony of yellow labs would work well, as would a colony of P. saulosi, or a stocking list based on some dwarf cichlids. There are other options as well, but no need to go into that if you want to tough it out with your current fish - until they are dead, that is.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's the way it is.


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## 1fish_2fish (Aug 14, 2013)

Currently looking to both options... looking at buying a 55g and selling my current tank. But depending on what I can do financially I may trade my fish in for something more suitable. Not trying to come off as not taking your advice to heart but it is also something that isn't going to be able to happen over night either. Thank you for all your help, it truely is appreciated.


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## 1fish_2fish (Aug 14, 2013)

fmueller said:


> A colony of yellow labs would work well, as would a colony of P. saulosi, or a stocking list based on some dwarf cichlids.


As far as doing a colony of P. saulosi what would my best option be for my tank? Male to female ratio? Also whats the best way to set up my tank? Are they going to breed?

Also any recommendations on dwarfs that would add variety and some type of color?


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

P. saulosi in a 36G, you could do 2-3 males and 6-8 females. If buying unsexed juveniles, I'd get 12 and hope for the best. You might loose a couple, but would likely end up with a nice colony.

Dwarf cichlids would be an option instead, but not in addition to P. saulosi. You could do Rams (I particularly like Bolivian Rams) or pretty much any type of Apistogramma. There are lots of Apistos out there! These are from South America. There are also West African dwarf cichlids, but they are less often kept, and harder to come by. Therefore maybe less suitable for a beginner.

Pretty much any type of cichlid will breed if kept in decent condition. Heck, some breed even if not kept in decent conditions :lol:

Have fun! I appreciate that you are clearly wanting to do the right thing :thumb:


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## amcvettec (May 11, 2012)

P. Saulosi are more docile than some mbuna and often you can have 2-3 males without problems but sometimes the dominant male may not tolerate any males. Ideally, look to purchase about 12-15 juveniles - they will all be yellow at first. Within a few weeks you will notice the males starting to color up to their blue barred appearance. If a fish looks to be ostracized from the group, badly beaten up or hiding behind filter/heaters then it is time to remove that fish.

Ideal set up for these tanks is a sand substrate (pool filter sand is a economic option) and lots and lots of rocks. I did not purchase my rocks - I picked them up from the edge of a newly constructed parking lot. I think landscape supply calls them rip-rap. They stay nicely and offer lots of hiding spots/caves for my fish.

Mbuna are notorious breeders. If you are not interested in saving fry (ie growout tanks) then look into purchasing a small school of syndontis cats (http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/spe ... ies_id=103). Maybe at least 3-4 as they like to school. These guys are great at picking up fry that aren't eaten by mbuna adults.


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## 1fish_2fish (Aug 14, 2013)

Thank you very much!! I really want this stupid thing to work out. It has been nothing but a headache since I decided to get it.



amcvettec said:


> Mbuna are notorious breeders. If you are not interested in saving fry (ie growout tanks) then look into purchasing a small school of syndontis cats (http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/spe ... ies_id=103). Maybe at least 3-4 as they like to school. These guys are great at picking up fry that aren't eaten by mbuna adults.


I have a pleco in there as well. Will that be good enough to take care of a fry problem if I were to have one?


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

Plecos are herbivorous, but may eat small fry? Fish are opportunistic, so I'm not sure. What species do you have? Most grow very large, and produce a lot of waste.


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

There are about as many types of plecos as there are cichlids. They have a wide variety of dietary needs, but all of them would have considerable difficulties catching mouth brooder fry, even in a small tank. Common plecos, which are the most frequently sold variety in chain stores, will quickly outgrow almost any home aquarium, and are entirely unsuitable for a 36G tank. A good pleco to keep in your tank would be a bristle nose or bushy nose pleco. They are great at eating algae. If you have good quality P. saulosi fry, most stores will happily take those of your hands for a modest amount of store credit.


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

That's an awesome picture! Is that native in Ohio, Frank? :wink:


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Iggy Newcastle said:


> That's an awesome picture! Is that native in Ohio, Frank? :wink:


That's not my picture. It's from http://www.bowfinanglers.com. I hope they don't mind me using it to caution people against buying common plecos to keep in fish tanks. I have seen video footage of those plecos ravaging whole ecosystems in Mexico. They originally come from South America and are an introduced species in Central America and as far north as Florida. Thankfully Ohio winters seem to take care of them :wink:

Check out this video taken in Florida, and keep in mind that those fish are a harmful pest in that environment. The guy fishing them does a great service!


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## Iggy Newcastle (May 15, 2012)

> Check out this video taken in Florida, and keep in mind that those fish are a harmful pest in that environment. The guy fishing them does a great service!


Trust me, I understand the damage a non native fish or animal can do to a body of water. I live near the Illinois river. The asian carp/bighead carp have ravaged it. They hold tournaments to see which boat can capture and kill the most. Every effort is being taken to prevent them from entering Lake Michigan. So absolutely no offense taken!


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## 1fish_2fish (Aug 14, 2013)

I have a bushy nose in my tank right now


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