# Firemouth Experts Please ; )



## Big Vine (Feb 26, 2007)

For now I just want opinions on sexing these two fish based on appearance, if at all possible.

Firemouth *# 1* (approx. 3.0" total length)

































Firemouth *# 2* (approx. 3.5" total length)

































Together (*#1* on left; *#2* on right)

























I can also provide an account of their interactions with one another and with others from their initial group, but I want some opinions based purely on what you see in the pics first.

Thanks!
BV


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## Joels fish (Nov 17, 2007)

This sounds like a trick , but I'll bite.  From what I can see #1 female , #2 male.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

that would be my guess to, but only because of the fins, even though my female firemouth had nicer fins then my male.


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## BlackShark11k (Feb 16, 2007)

Agreed. First female, second male.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Agreed. First female, second male. :fish: :fish:


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## cage623 (Feb 2, 2008)

I agree with everyone else. I am more sure about #2 being a male than #1 being a female though. I also think that they are both nice looking FMs. I hope the little one (approximately 2") I just got this week will end up this colorful.


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## Mr.Firemouth (May 20, 2007)

The trailing ray extensions of fish #2 definitely says it is a male at that size.
The first fish is quite possibly a female as she is slightly thicker and has smaller pectoral fins.

The color is some what orange rather than red. This may be because of the camera used, white balance, and the flash. However, many FM's in the trade have orange coloring instead of dark red. No worries. :thumb:


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## Big Vine (Feb 26, 2007)

Thanks for the responses.
Let's now move on to what I've witnessed as far as behavior/interactions:

*PHASE I* - several weeks ago
-5 similar-sized firemouths
-fish *#2* (the one we're calling male) is largest of the batch
-he occupied 'sweet spot' at bottom of the tank; established as dominant fish
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*PHASE II* - couple weeks ago
-other 4 fish began hanging out more and more toward the surface of the water
-3 of them especially stayed loosely grouped together in one far upper corner of the tank
-the other one, which is fish *#1* (the one we're calling female) hung out more near the middle

_It became clear that the 3 up near the surface were probably all males.
Not only were they 'shooed away' by the dominant male, but they were also similar to him in appearance (as far as finnage and stronger coloration goes). Dominant male has a much better shape to him and better flowing fins, but these other 3 bear a stronger resemblance to him than to the suspected female. The fact that the suspected female was the only one allowed to really interact/hang out with the dominant male in any significant way (while the others were shunned)---combined with her more bluntly-shaped dorsal fin and overall shorter finnage and slightly less vibrant coloration---tells me that she is in fact the only female of the bunch._
_____________________________________________________________________________

*PHASE III* - about a week ago
-pulled out the 3 suspected subordinate males
-dominant male's attention focused more on the female
-interaction often consisted of him nipping at her tail fin, with her 'waving' her body at him and gill-flaring
-despite having the middle portion of her tail fin shredded away, she still kept trying to hang around the male

_This gave me the impression that he was perhaps looking to spawn, whereas she was not ready to do so (yet was still trying to 'woo' him?). At this point, I'm thinking I have somewhat of a pair in the making, but they're not quite there yet._
_______________________________________________________________________________

*PHASE IV* - today
-added a slightly larger female (from what I suspect) to the tank
-my current (suspected) female seemed to be the first to start attacking her
-male was more curious about the newcomer, but was gradually 'compelled' (by the current female's gill-flaring and attack-posturing movements) to engage in the attacks as well
-these attacks occurred repeatedly throughout the evening until I decided to remove the newcomer to prevent her (I'm assuming she based on body shape, finnage, coloration) from getting killed
____________________________________________________________________________
*SUMMARY/QUESTIONS*
Could this unified attack indicate that my current fish are in fact a pair?
_I suppose it could be a simple matter of two tankmates defending a common territory against a newcomer 'intruder,' but the newcomer in this case was in no way aggressive (despite being the alpha fish at the fish store). Plus, the male did in fact check her out in a more curious manner to begin with, but then only started attacking her when 'prompted' by the current female, whose posturing and gill-flaring seemed to get him riled up. In some instances she'd come up behind him when he was nearing the newcomer, and then she'd give him a nudge or a little bite on the 'backside,' which then sent him into attack mode against the newcomer. They would both then pursue her and bite at her, then take breaks as she hung out near the surface/behind heater, then repeat again a short while later, etc..._

_*Any thoughts from anyone who still happens to be reading my long-winded rundown of the situation?*_ :-? 
BV


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## Joels fish (Nov 17, 2007)

Sounds like they're working on it. The fact that the male is courious about the other female says to me that the bond is not that strong between them at this point, but that should improve with time and a spawn or two. I find the females actions interesting. I cant say I remember ever seeing any of my females do something like that except when guarding young and the male was a little slack in his duties. Guess we know who's gonna be wearing the pants :lol: .I wouldn't try adding any other FMs at this point though , I think it would just mess up the forming bond . Just my 2 cents , I'm sure some more knowledgeable folks will chime in. Good luck! :wink:


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## Big Vine (Feb 26, 2007)

Thanks for your feedback, Joel.
I agree with your take on things....you're right about the female---she's pretty fiesty!

Still, I was a bit concerned about her---mostly her tail fin damage---so I thought it might not be a bad idea to add another female...just to see if the male would prefer her instead. Plus, I was hoping the dynamics and interactions with the new fish would give me the confirmation I needed to be sure I had a male and a female.

As you said, it appears that this new addition has helped confirm two things for me...
1) Fish #1 and the newcomer are in fact both female.
2) Newcomers are not welcome in this setup (so I won't mess with the FM stocking anymore); indicating to me that the male and female are pairing.

Based on all this, it appears you've confirmed my suspicions about things, and I've figured out what I wanted to know---thanks for your help! Of course, I welcome anyone else's input on the matter as well. :thumb:

BV


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## Joels fish (Nov 17, 2007)

Glad I could be of some help to you.


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## Mr.Firemouth (May 20, 2007)

You have definitely formed a pair if they are posturing to each other with dominant gill flaring and then swimming together. The fact that they protected a territory together(which is what happened during the attacks) is more evidence that the bond has formed.

I would suggest a 25%-50% water change with slightly cooler water(74*F) and increase feeding with possibly some frozen foods like bloodworms or enriched brine shrimp.

If you are interested in raising the fry then you will need some baby brine shrimp. I use frozen cubes from Hikari because they are easier.

HTH, Rich


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## Big Vine (Feb 26, 2007)

Much appreciated, Rich...thanks for the feedback and advice.
Female's tail fin damage does not appear to be getting any worse, but she does have some markings on her face and body indicative of some slight damage. Nevertheless, she appears to be holding up just fine, so I remain hopeful that her fiesty spirit will endure all of the male's aggressive breeding 'advances' until such time that she is ready to lay eggs. :fish:

BV


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## cage623 (Feb 2, 2008)

BV,

I just wanted to say that I enjoyed reading this thread. I like how you have shared your observations with us and it is nice to see how things have progressed. I hope that you continue to keep all of us updated on how your pair of FM is going. And at the risk of sounding demanding, can we have a few updated pics of them from time to time. I love to see how fish grow and change over time.

I just have one final question, what do you plan on doing with the fry?

I hope that all goes well with your new pair of FM and once again thanks for sharing with us.


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## FiremouthShogun (Apr 26, 2006)

Clean water, some high protien food and time....

I also think you broke down the process very well and maybe should be sticky'd up there with cons : P...

It could take up to a month for a spawn and you may want something in there to deflect the male's aggression and "bond" the pair. Gosh her fins are bad, I must say... As far as the 3 unpair'd go you probalby woudln't know if they were all sub-males or sub-females..I noticed the same exact behaviour in my tanks and a second pair formed out of the outcasts.

Nice big water change, a gaggle of live shrimp or some like protien and she'll start making her eggs.

Have you noticed any pits being dug ? Usually the 1st sign.


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

I just had a similar experience but my male ended up killing the female that he had apparently bonded with.  He then went crazy and started viciously attacking everything. I had to get rid of him. Unfortunately they were the best looking FM I have seen in person and showing great color at only 2in.

You should definitely get something in there to help try and focus their attention on until they are ready to do the deed if you don't all ready. I would hate to hear yours ended like mine did.


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## Big Vine (Feb 26, 2007)

Well, I wish I would have updated sooner, but things only really 'hit the fan' within the past day or so. In a nutshell, the male in particular was getting quite aggressive---kinda like what you were describing, chrispyweld.

Needless to say, I got rid of the firemouths. :? 

Why did I get rid of them?
Well, my $30.00 leopard frog pleco ended up dying, and I'm pretty sure it was the male FM that stressed him to death. See, I did a few things wrong with this setup. Having the 4 raphael cats in with 2 fancy plecos was a big mistake, IMO. The leopard frog plec had been showing signs of starvation---even despite loading the tank up with food for these guys---and I think a lot of it had to do with the raphaels being such pigs and gobbling it all up before the plecos really had a chance. The male firemouth would attack all bottomdwellers, but of course the raphaels were barely phased by any of it. The plecos, on the other hand, seemed to tolerate this pestering rather poorly. Stress just seemed to be adding up, leading to starvation.

My first mistake in this poorly thought-out plan to 'fix' things was pulling all the raphael cats out of the tank. I figured hey, if they're the ones stealing all the food, then maybe removing them will give the plecos more to feast on. I should have realized at the time that this only resulted in the plecos becoming even bigger targets for the male FM. I think this ultimately led to the death of the leopard frog pleco. In retrospect, I should have gotten rid of the firemouths sooner.

After the death of the leopard frog pleco, I couldn't help but stay really focused on my other pleco (the peppermint pleco). I noticed the male FM chasing him all over the tank, and the pleco seemed awfully stressed about the whole ordeal. He'd go on scavenging missions in a desperate attempt to fill his belly (which appeared sunken-in); only to be met with attacks from the FM. I decided enough's enough and ultimately chose to keep the pleco instead of the firemouths. I just hope the pleco will pull through okay following this whole ordeal.

So where does that leave me now?
This tank now has one 2-3" peppermint pleco (which I've read will hit 6-7"), a large school of silvertip tetras, and that's it... Not sure where to take things from here... My crayfish breeding project has been taking up a lot of my attention as of late.

Sorry to have hit a dead end with this one guys.
I would have loved to see what was gonna be in store for this FM 'pair' I had in the making, but I just didn't wanna have to lose another pleco in the process. The remaining pleco is my favorite, so I'm hoping he'll pull through and stay with me for the long haul.

BV :?


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## cage623 (Feb 2, 2008)

BV,

Sorry to hear what happened. IMO you did the best thing by getting rid of them when you did though. I too have had to recently give some fish away because of the way things were going. I know how much it sucks but I guess you just have to know that in the long run you did what was best.


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

Sorry to hear that, I know first hand how much this sucks. 

Is it just me or are the FM's getting meaner. I have seen better specimens recently than I have ever seen in person but they are psycho. I don't know maybe they are closer to wild than what I am used to or what.


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## Joels fish (Nov 17, 2007)

Man that really sucks. at least the casualties were minimal. The only time I can remember Any of mine ever behaving like that was just before a spawn and while guarding fry. Considering the circumstances though you did the best thing. Geez, I wonder what they'd have done if they spawned! Still quite a shame ,they were real nice FMs.


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## Big Vine (Feb 26, 2007)

Thanks guys.
This is all just a part of fishkeeping...there wouldn't be any 'good' without the 'bad', eh? :roll: 
Oh well, at least I learned from it anyway and hopefully saved my peppermint pleco's life in the process.

Now I just need to figure out what to do with this setup!
I've considered most CA cichlid options available to me, and none seem to fit the bill (not if I intend to keep that pleco alive and thriving anyway). SA cichlids offer more choices, but none of them are all that appealing to me at this point in time. I'm thinking I'll do one of the following:

-add a non-cichlid (blasphemy, I know it :lol: ) centerpiece such as an opaline or gold gourami

-leave as-is for in case the **** hits the fan between my oscar and salvini in the 75 gal.
(I'd swap out the pleco with the salvini, because I know the sal would harass/kill the pleco---granted, my oscar may end up doing just the same... :? )

Anyway, that's where things stand.
I'd love to hear any feedback or other ideas if you've got em'!
I'm leaning toward going the gourami route, because I've been wanting to keep one again. I've had them in the past, but always in groups of 2-4 and in smaller tanks before I really knew any better (which never worked out due to conspecific aggression). I may just go out and find a nice keeper later today.

Still, I'm all ears for any other suggestions...thanks for tuning in! :thumb: 
BV


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

**coughs**dwarfpikes**cough cough**dwarf acaras**cough cough**

I'm sure you can find some south americans to fit the bill ... the only central I'd try with the pleco are probably nano's at this point if you can find them. I mean there are way more south americans out there than centrals ... I'm sure you'll see something ... not that I have any suggestions or anything.


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Shocking reccomendations LOL


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## Big Vine (Feb 26, 2007)

LMAO...
Well, for better or for worse I decided to go ahead and add an opaline gourami. I'm pretty sure things oughta work out just fine now. On the odd chance that it doesn't, then it's back to the drawing board.

Sadly this tank is now retired from the world of cichlids...for the time being anyway... :zz:

Still, I think I'll be happy with the current setup, and so will the fish! :thumb: 
BV


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

:zz: :zz: :zz: Normal fish are boring..............................................................................


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

I definitely see the draw to community fish. After so many re-dos on my tank recently due to aggression and deaths I though about it myself. A peaceful tank that you don't have to worry (so much) about a fish going on a killing spree sounds relaxing.

But I only have so many tanks so cichlids it is for me!!!! :thumb:


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Hey, some people recommend home built 800 gallon aquariums, I recommend dwarf pikes and Laetacaras ... 



> Sadly this tank is now retired from the world of cichlids...for the time being anyway...


NOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ...

well okay, at least it's a labrynth fish. Am a closest wild betta lover, and day's spiketail paradise fish ... and sparkling gouramis ... oh and chocolates ... and badis ...

Some of them act apisto like though, so it's cool ... stop looking at me like that!!! Philistines.


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## ChromisBeginis (Oct 4, 2005)

Big Vine, 
I would be suprised if you could not find a cichlid that would play nice with your pleco. Given Firemouths are sandsifters, they are bad choice with some catfish. I found that out myself under a similar circumstance to yours when my female Firemouth harassed my coryâ€™s to death :x

On top of it, I realized later she was eating the food I was dropping in the tank for the coryâ€™s too. Well, atleast she is grew some, and now I have a new method of feeding her. opcorn:

I think your FMâ€™s aggression was some inborn instinct they have to be aggressive with catfish.
My female seams pretty relaxed, thatâ€™s why I was surprised she attacked the coryâ€™s to death. But even the new smaller FMâ€™s I added to the tank have gotten little if any of her wraith.. As long as no one goes near her shrimp pellets she appears to live an let live. :fish:

But that was a nice pair you had  , how about a 30g tank, just for the Firemouths?


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## Mr.Firemouth (May 20, 2007)

Too bad about the Plec.
The lesson learned here was not so much about compatibility, but about territory and available tank space.

Unfortunately, the size of fish is only a part of an equation when determining territory. Territories for cichlids can be as large as 24"X24" per pair or larger. In a 38g tank you can see how quickly you ran out of room. Larger fish of course will need larger territories.

Then aggression will play into this. Aggression is increased when breeding, for obvious reasons, and is always intensified by smaller confines. This is one reason that I say a 75g is ideal for FM's. Smaller tanks make them increasingly more aggressive.

When fish are kept that have similar needs, such as spawning sites, food requirements, etc., you again will need larger confines like a 4-6ft long tank to accommodate these overlapping territories. Your problem with the cats was indeed that they were not sharing a large enough space to feed everyone.

This brings me to the most important issue of aquascaping. The aquascape has 3 zones, preferred substrate(Sand/pebbles) is best chosen for feeding requirements(ie; sand sifters)
hard scape(including rock types;limestone and driftwood) Caves are of the utmost importance with Plecs and substrate spawning cichlids.
And the upper zone...Floating plants. The upper zone offers shelter to fish that may need a break from all the chasing/attacking.

So, if you were to have kept the same fish in a 4-6' long tank with varying hardscapes for shelter you would of been more apt to be successful.

The additional feeding to try to support the fish is a double edged sword also. The main reason is overfeeding leads to higher Bio-loads from extra fish waste and any uneaten fish foods. Therefore, when food density is increased water changes and gravel vacuuming must be increased also to compensate, as the filter will not keep up in breaking down the particulates.
This affects everything from the bacterial counts that are processing nitrogenous waste to the dissolved oxygen levels within the water itself. That is one reason why the females fins did not heal within 3 days. When water quality is increased via nutrient export thru water changes fish wounds will heal very quickly without any secondary infections that would erode finnage.

Part of the challenges of keeping fish is understanding how the aquascape, feeding requirements, and water parameters play into compatibility of having a community setting vs. a species only tank.

HTH, Rich


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## Big Vine (Feb 26, 2007)

Thanks for the input Rich.
Just to clarify---although water quality may have played a role in the female's tailfin lack of healing, I can't help but think that the continuous harassment (the nipping of chunks out of it) from the male was mostly to blame.

But you're right---those recommendations you gave would definitely be a much better recipe for success. I agree completely. Limited tankspace (and space for tanks) can often lead to these types of lessons when one tries to 'push the envelope' on stocking. 

In case anyone's wondering, this tank is now home to a juvenile opaline gourami as centerpiece fish, a large group of orange juvenile platies, and the young peppermint pleco I mentioned earlier in the thread. I have no plans of changing anything either. The opaline gourami/orange platy combination is something I stumbled upon by accident, but I'm glad I did---the contrast in colors is fantastic! (and any extra platy offspring which happen to survive the parents and gourami will be reserved as feeders for my oscar/salvini tank)

BV


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Big Vine said:


> Just to clarify--- Limited tankspace (and space for tanks) can often lead to these types of lessons when one tries to 'push the envelope' on stocking.
> 
> BV


(clearing throat) Um, this sounds like an excuse. People that come in second place make excuses.

Now. Take charge, get rid of some stuff you really don't need or use and go get yourself some fish tanks and fill them with cichlids.

This message will self destruct when you grow some hair on your chest.   :fish:


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## Big Vine (Feb 26, 2007)

LMFAO...yup, one of my favorite excuses!
Say, how's that leg of yours doing? Seems to me like it could use a cold beer...better ring the 'summons bell' for wifey to go get you some! :lol: 

I think my next excuse for this sort of tank stocking issue will be that I broke my leg or something like that...pffft, as if that ever happens to anyone...:roll:

BV

P.S. Here's me dancing on my non-broken shins...:dancing:
(yes, I'm a horrible dancer :lol: )


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Listen........ I'd be willing to bet my incredibly awesome wife that I can walk around your home and find atleast five spots for decent sized tanks. Thee's always a way to fit more... ALWAYS!!

Mrs Fishguy says:
"Did you tell all them I'm waiting on you hand and foot?"

:lol: :lol:


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## Big Vine (Feb 26, 2007)

Haha...what can I say in response to that?!? More excuses, that's what!  
Our plan is to relocate across the country for my wife's work in the next 6 months or so...hopefully straight into a house. Once we've done that, she says "anything goes" as far as setting up tanks. But until then, any more tanks will almost certainly result in divorce papers being thrown at me...

BV :lol:


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Big Vine said:


> But until then, any more tanks will almost certainly result in divorce papers being thrown at me...
> 
> BV :lol:


Is there something wrong with this??? :lol: J/K


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

The key is to get your sig. other into fish as well ... mine likes bettas, giving me an excuse to set up even more cichlid tanks with various kribs and chromides to share space with "her" bettas! :thumb:


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## Big Vine (Feb 26, 2007)

Lol...ironically it was my wife who got me involved in fishkeeping in the first place!
She had worked in a Ma' & Pa' pet store a while before we met, and she used a lot of the experience she gained to help me ('us' at the time) get into fishkeeping. Somehow at the time I don't think she realized the 20 gal. community tank we started out with was going to lead to what would (eventually) be hundred+ gallon tanks! :lol:

For the most part she doesn't mind my obsession with the hobby, but her work commitments have been keeping her crazy busy to where she just doesn't have the time to really get involved. Still, I try my best to keep her somewhat interested...:wink:

BV


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

My sig other is pretty tolerant of my fishiness ... even lets me spend vacation time hunting down the lfs and seeing what they have in stock!! :lol:

As she explained to someone, "He doesn't go out drinking, doesn't smoke, no drugs, no strip clubs, doesn't cheat, and doesn't spend abnormal times playing video games. He does this instead, keeps him out of trouble." :lol:


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

dwarfpike said:


> "He doesn't go out drinking, doesn't smoke, no drugs, no strip clubs, doesn't cheat, and doesn't spend abnormal times playing video games. He does this instead, keeps him out of trouble." :lol:


This is exactly what my wife says. Because if I was going to bars I'd be spending more there than on my fish..... well... maybe not...


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Between the fights and the alcohol, deffinately less money in fish ... but then I don't have an 800 gallon aquarium ... or a 240 .... or a ... :lol:


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Speaking of pikes, My belly crawlers are insane... I quaranteen goldfish to feed the clown knife in my 240 and I dropped a few in the other day and the male pounded four....at the same time! :lol:

I hate having to use feeders....................


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

The BC's were never switched to pellets before you rescued them? They are usually one of the easier pikes to switch over. I've always had good luck with fried dried krill place in the filter return to jet it across the tank as first step ... though the dwarves are more picky, stickly frozen so far, though my new ones beg like full grown pikes  ... BC's rock though, neat fish. If I had a larger tank I'd take that rescue off your hands :lol:


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Oh, they eat pellets just fine, but they just can't stop eating.... :lol:


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Oh yeah, people think oscars are eating machines ... pike rank right up there ... even my dwarves will stuff themselves of frozen goodies, and with huge bellies still try to beg for more at the front of the glass ... :lol:

And we so hijacked Big Vine's thread. Don't tell the mods .... :wink:


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

uh...uh...uh... OK


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

So do you think we can continue to sneak pike cichlid posts under the Central folder just for fun??? Did you ever find a home for one of those BC's? I thought I remember your site saying you had to, but your current list of fish in the 800 only listed one?


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

The one in the 800 is mine, the two up for adoption are still in the 240.


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## FiremouthShogun (Apr 26, 2006)

BV,

Sorry about the crash.

I can relate about the tanks as my wife's got me on lock down with just 1. Booo hissss...She didn't say what size one hmmmmm I got a 20' wall to fill woot!

In regards to FM's I've had some really nasty males and 1 really nasty female. It's all fish dependent. You may have been best served by removing the male and letting the girl heal up b4 adding a new male.

Also Catfish and FM's share the bottom strata wich always leads to competition.

I've been travelling for a bit but decided to add my 2 cents....so there....


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## Big Vine (Feb 26, 2007)

FiremouthShogun said:


> I can relate about the tanks as my wife's got me on lock down with just 1. Booo hissss...She didn't say what size one hmmmmm I got a 20' wall to fill woot!


Now that's the right idea---20' wall = 20' tank, right?!?! :lol:



FiremouthShogun said:


> You may have been best served by removing the male and letting the girl heal up b4 adding a new male.


Well, I added a slightly bigger female in the hopes it would maybe lead to a quicker pairing (or at least distract the male from nipping at the other female). As it turned out, they both started tearing after the larger female, so that idea went kaput in a hurry!

Are you suggesting I should have swapped out the male instead and tried adding a more peaceful one?

BV


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

It's about time this thread got back on track. Wish there was a mod around.


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## Big Vine (Feb 26, 2007)

Mods are sure scarce 'round these parts, I tell ya.
BV


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## TheFishGuy (Apr 21, 2005)

Sheesh, what an out of control site. :roll:


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## FiremouthShogun (Apr 26, 2006)

Please post site feedback in the feedback and suggestions thread.

Thanks

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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