# Trouble with Aceis. A killer within...



## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

My trouble started a few weeks ago. I ordered 8 aceis with 20 demasonis, 8 labs and 4 multis. al but a three aceis were DOA from the breeder. Then the last three died. The breeder was vary accommodating about the DOAs and sent me replacements free of charge, including no additional shipping. I got the new ones on Thursday. This time things were better they sent me 10 Aceis and 3 dies in delivery. All seemed fine but over the last four days more and more Aceis ended up dead. I tried watching to see who was the culprit but they are really tricky. As of this morning there were only two aceis left. I looked in in the tank around 11:00 and one of my Dems ended up dead! This really urked me since it was one that was showing awsome colors. I looked in the tank a little while ago and another acei is on its back. I have seen this before it will be dead soon enough.

So what do you think is the Aceis or the Dems? I have to believe this last Acei is the bad guy. During the time I was waiting for the replacement Aceis all was tranquil in the tank. No issues no fights. No dead fish. Do I need to separate this Acei and try to sell him to a lfs?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Sounds like an illness or a water issue. If they were aggression deaths that happened that fast you would see the biting and dive bombing.

I have never seen aggression result in a death overnight. My aggression deaths usually occur after a long period (weeks) of relentless chasing until the victim just gets worn out and develops bloat due to his weakened condition.

I had a demasoni almost die from aggression, but it happened when I had two in a divided 10G hospital tank and one jumped the barrier. Two males in 1/2 of a 10G for several hours.

The victim recovered, but there was no question what happened in view of the large number of missing scales and mostly missing fins.

Are there any symptoms of illness or injury before the deaths?


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

Hmm not that I noticed... Both Aceis were active yesterday. Came for food like everyone else. I will retest my water. I have Ammonia, Nitrate, nitrite, Ph and hardness test. I will report back when I am done.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

I guess it could be my Nitrites. Up untill this test they have always been 0, well at lest since the tank was cycled. The ph could be higher too. My Nitrates have always been high I thought they would go down after my weekly 20% water changes.

Thoughts?

Water stats --

Temp: 82
PH: 7.8
NO2: .25 ppm
NO3: 40 ppm
KH: 71.6 ppm
GH: 214.8+ 15 drops on a 12 drop scale...


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## awilson0001 (Sep 2, 2010)

another thought is the ph from the supplier. i did that once, bought a fish and didnt even think about the ph. he died in like 2 days. the store gave me another after we figured it was ph poisoning. 
the replacement spent like 5 hours in a drip bucket and in he went. he acted weird after like 3 days, lasted about a week, then just died.
are there any bodily injuries?
maybe call the supplier and ask what their ph is.
does ph change during shipping?


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## soulpride (Aug 30, 2009)

i would do a large water change asap. since nitrite is also deadly to fish. i would check for any left over food or any dead fish that still in the tank these could spike the water even in a cycled tank. never pour bag water into the tank. if the fish was shipped with some dead fish with them in the bag. do a temp. then dump instead of slow accl. process. yes ph can change during shipping from waste such ammo build up and so on. if the ph is 7.5 and up they should be fine and slowly adjust to new ph. so a search on this forum there some one posted about dead fish he order.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I think pH shock is going to show an immediate impact. If the fish survived the first several hours it would have acclimated to the pH.

I added some new fish (Tangs) into a quarantine tank that I thought was "close enough" in pH and the fish went still and dark...like they were sleeping. I that that was it, but after a couple hours they gradually began to move around and return to a normal color.

That nitrite is an undesirable reading, but I still think the fish would survive 12 hours. Mine do gasp at the surface when I get a nitrite spike (once, quarantine tank, nitrite 0.5).

Because the deaths are happening over time, and the demasoni are impacted, I'm wondering if the original acei brought bloat into your tank. Obviously the shipping stressed them because all but three died in the bags.

You would have symptoms with bloat however. The one fish that is about to die will stop eating. Breathe heavily. White thready poop. Do you have any of that going on?

Boost up your weekly water change, 50% is more reasonable.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

I don't see any white stringy poop. The fish were gasping a bit before they died. Yesterday they both were eating fine but I do remrmber the fish that died was not eating this morning. How do I fight the bloat? I would hate to loose them all over this.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

I also do not see any bloating in the intensinal regoind of the other fish. I wounder if it is something other than the bloat?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

We call it bloat, but the fish is not always bloated. It can also be emaciated. Or "normal" shaped.

It could be something other than bloat, especially if they were eating fine yesterday.

The thing about bloat is that it tends to take a fish every couple of days or weeks so you don't even connect the deaths.

Keep observing for symptoms, maybe more clues will develop.

Meanwhile you could take a look in the Library for treatment with epsom salts. Can't hurt and it might help with any developing intestinal blockages caused by the bloat organism.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

My water is rather soft. So I already add 1/2 tablespoon to 5 galons of water to harden it up. Will adding more be ok?


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

Should I also cut back on feeding? They sure all act hungry. I hold may hand above the tank. The universal signal for feeding time... they all come a swimmin' But if they have intestinal parasites I would think cutting back on food a bit might help. Also I am turning up the heat, I read that higher temps promote immunity.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If you already have epsom salts in the water I would not add more.

Turning up the heat has some specific benefits with certain parasites, but I would not say it improves immunity. With ich you turn up the heat to speed the lifecycle of the parasite. I'd keep the temp normal until you diagnose.

No need to signal mbuna when it's feeding time, they will congregate when someone walks into the room, LOL. Once/daily as much as they can eat in 60 seconds with 1 day/week fasting is a good regimen.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

Ok I am starting to see the last Acei darting at the Dems now. What should I do remove him. I don't have another tank so I would have to put him in a bucket till I figure out what to do long term.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Chasing is fine. If the Demasoni is already sick, it is actually natural and expected.

If you are saying the Acei is a psycho fish and you can see him damaging the other fish, yes you can put him in a 5G bucket, but only with a filter and heater.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

Seems a moot point... I can't catch the little bugger anyway... Man, these guys are fast! I will try to watch for damage. Except for little red spots on the belly of the dead fish I really could never see damage. Like no missing fins even though they did swim funny before they went belly up.

I have seen even the Dems chase each other so maybe its all normal cichlid behavior. My Nitrites are back to normal. as should be expected I am doing a 10% change each night trying to keep the stress down from poor water. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m also only feeding them in the mid morning. 60 sec feed no more. I hope this will help their little bellies if they are blocked. Feeding is about as aggressive as ever. Maybe a bit slower? I think all my worrying is making me see thingsÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ J

I can't get any meds as all the fish stores were closed today. I will probably stop by after work tomorrow.

Btw what should cichlid carp look like?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

After years of trying different methods, I find it's best to resign yourself to removing all the rocks when you have to net a fish.

In addition I drain half the water and use a divider between rock piles (tank is set up for this, I only have to remove a few rocks to divide rock piles). Then hopefully you will have to remove rocks only on the side of the divider where the fish is.

Fish poop should look something like what the fish ate. Since in my case it is a brown pellet, it's brown. When you need to be careful is when it becomes colorless (may appear white) because then the fish is passing mucous and not food waste. This is a sign of blocked intestines.

You might want to post a pic of the little red spots on the belly of the dead fish. Bloated fish can have redness and a bump around the anal opening.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

All dead fish are down the drain, I hope I won't have anonther oppertunity to take those pictures. They did have read around the rectum. Could be my issue.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

So I just got my clout lfs was out of stock.... Unfortunatly I had another loss. THis time a Lab. I set it of to the side as I had to get to class this evening and could't deal with it. Strangly when I got home the FIsh had blood around the gills. Is this normal for bloat?

Also the library says to put this in the tank with your fish. THe package recommends treating infected fish in a seperate tank. Which should I do? The library also says it stains silicon and such blue. Anyone know how blue are we talking. Like ocean blue or sky blue?

Thanks for the quick advice I figure I better get moving on this...


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

Also can I keep feeding over the three days of treatment.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

Also, it says do not use on bottom feeding fish would this not include my multis? Do I need to remove them?

Say I get another tank and treat it. Will the fish just get the parasite when I put them back in the untreated main tank? Sorry all the questions but.... just worried about my babies!

Thanks


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)




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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

This is the most recent loss... No spots on this ones belly but obviously very sick.. even before being dead...

http://picasaweb.google.com/110028169986552777076/Tank#5514775775277072578

The rest seem health enough I guess. Of cousre soon as I think that they another ends up dead.
http://picasaweb.google.com/110028169986552777076/Tank#5514775784387840546

Another concern is I am not sure if this one is sick or holding. It seems to be hanging out in the back of the tank and is not comming over at feeding time.

http://picasaweb.google.com/110028169986552777076/Tank#5514775809079814066

http://picasaweb.google.com/110028169986552777076/Tank#5514775817255017266


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I have not seen the red gills, but I also don't know if I've waiting 12-24 hours and looked. Any dead fish go directly to the freezer.

I would do clout in the hospital tank with the sickest one only. Like the one lurking in the corners and not eating. (Can't tell if the fish is holding from the pics.) The silicone is a transparent turquoise, not terrible but better the hospital tank than the main tank. Use the directions in the sticky in Illness, not package directions. No food.

I'd use metronidazole in the main tank. Doesn't kill your bacteria or your cats, doesn't stain. Again, use directions in a link in cichlidaholic's posts (not package directions). Do a search to find her posts.

I measure the dosage into cups of tank water (those little bathroom paper cups) and add the NLS pellets I plan to feed. Soak a few seconds but not so long that the pellets get mushy. Dump the whole cup into the tank.

This way the ones eating get internal meds and the rest get the treatment in the water which is how the directions say to treat.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

While not being able to find the clout in stores I was also asking for the metronidazole. They don't even carry that one. Besides fish stores any idea where I might try to get some locally? I would rather not order it on line. I live in the Milwaukee area.


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## wesmast1 (Jul 31, 2010)

nitrite is NO2 and negative ion and nitrate is NO3 negative ion


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I order all my meds online and overnight as well if required. I also found LFS never had what I needed when I needed it.


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## trunk (Jun 25, 2010)

http://picasaweb.google.com/110028169986552777076/Tank#5516206690079045122

Well 48 after meds in my maintank and the tank I bought to put sick fish in. THings seemed better all around till I came home tonight and found another dead Dem. I don't see any sign of sickness. No red spots in the rectum region, no signs of white **** in the tank. But there is a big hole missing on the side. (see Photo) I am not sure if this was cause of death or the multis getting a free meal.

I am really not sure what to do.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Sometimes one particular fish is too far gone to be helped by the meds. If the others are looking better I'd continue.

That fish looks like he's been dead a while so maybe he was just hiding and died 48 hours ago.


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