# Cichlid deaths need info!!



## jldean23 (May 11, 2012)

Hello everyone just need some info i have a lil problem dont know what it is you can see my tank in the tank section but i have malawi mbunas in my tank demonsi, kingsezi pulpican, elongautus yellowtail, red top zebra, jalo reefs, for some weird reason espically the kingsezi keep dying and others my water is a ph of 8.2 ,gh is at 17 drops kh is at 11 i do water changes every week 30% check my water all the time the new setup is about 3 months old should have cycled already been doin this for years cant seem to figure out what it is they are not stressed get feed good but they will quit socializing stay close in a knook in my 3-d background stay put wont eat at all then die all the rest are eager to eat like normal my filtration is a sun-sun canister filter 303b 295gph i think with uv keeps water cyrstal clear i just dont know if were i use hbh cichlid frenzy food a flake protien is 42% fat is 10% fiber is 3% moisture is 10% they dont have bloat or no big belly is this food messing up their digestive tract why they quit eating or????? i ordered a diffrent food hbh natural 8 veggie flake the protien is 28% fat 9% fiber 6% moisture 10% has more veggies see if it makes a diffrent never had this problem like they get depressed stay to themselves dont eat then die my kingsezi was beautiful and lost him any info or advice would help maybe its the food or disease if its a disease its a non-showing disease thanks guys


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

It is not the food.

Since you didn't cycle the tank - please tell us what the Ammonia and Nitrites read. Please don't use strips but a drop kit.

I don't know about the DIY background and whether it needed to leach for a while before putting it in with fish, something I would verify.

Having a bunch of different blue barred species together would greatly increase the odds of some serious stress and death in and of itself.

Bloat will manifest as a fish dying every few weeks in the manor you describe most often without swollen bellies.

If the Nitrates and Ammonia are zero, and the DIY background doesn't seem to be an issue, I would treat the entire tank with Metro and add no one until I went at least 6 weeks with no deaths.

If you have more information on the timing and number of deaths that may be useful for us to help.

Good Luck.


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## jldean23 (May 11, 2012)

the tank is cycled i even used nutrafin cycle to help it meant to say tank is cycled and i use drop tests not the strips and with my background i used stryofoam and because of leeching i used drylock concrete sealer not concrete its safe for ponds and fish so there wouldnt be a leech problem in the water im out of drops for nitrate and ammonia waiting on my guy to get more in stock now as for aggression weirdly enough there is almost no aggression i did have a elet blue johannii that ahole picked on every one and everything scaring my new stock but he has been gone for awhile what aggression there is is a lil species rivalry between same species lol u know this is my rock and the background and tank is maybe 3months total with this water never had a problem till this food and as you say its one bye one maybe lost 5-6 most is new stock just ordered within last month some since the get go but like didnt start till the food it seems if it is bloat like my king sezi he stayed to himself guarding his rock the cichlid frenzy food wouldnt touch it throw some earthworm flakes he would eat sometimes then quit kinda hid then died no buldge showing bloat but to be honest never had cichlid with bloat after all of these years keeping them there is plenty of air real plants anibuis , amazon swords pool filter sand and crushed coral mix for substrate clean my filter every 2 weeks use uv 2 days out of week lol im lost i dont think its ammonia but when i get tester i will know i take extra maintenance to keep tank perfect i order fish from flordia cichlidstore.com they come healthy something wrong hope this helps let me know...


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

So are ammonia and Nitrates currently 0, I didn't see that anywhere I could tell?

If you bought new fish and did not put them in QT and they stopped eating within a month, how can you assume they did not bring something into the tank?

The stress of shipping can bring on illness - IME you just can't assume all fish coming into the house are healthy and not carrying anything - sometimes you get some very nasty s*#@ from _reputable_ dealers, but I won't go there right now.

Bloat can happen to anyone, perfect water does not preclude bloat from occurring, water quality is a major but not sole contributor. If you keep Africans long enough you will deal with bloat at some point, especially with new arrivals.

I lost a tank in May thread here, and three professors and Northern Arizona University have reviewed the information with nothing positive to report as to what happened and it has now gone to the University of Arizona to see if there is any input from down there, stuff happens to everyone.

As an aside, the following is not a criticism of you in any way, just a reality that some of us old goats may need a little help. The large text blocks that you are posting are often avoided because they are tough to get through, myself included here. White space is free.

Sad fact is, my eyes suck anymore and I know I am not the only one, just an observation that may help you with getting more feedback. No offense intended.

BTW - I still don't think it is the food.

More information on who came in when, how long until they stopped eating, and how long before they died is all very valuable in trying to figure out what is going on.


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## jldean23 (May 11, 2012)

ok lol ummm all fish was new stock this was a brand new tank from the getgo my older fish are in the 35 hexagon had them for years!

have a orange yellow lab or u could say orange lab of all the years with cichlids never seena orange lab that and a fire jewel had bumblebees my male was 5-6 years old but tank is new built stand re-siliconed tank then got new stock so tank and all stock is 3 months old some fish are in tank for about 2 weeks but problem was before them

and as for ammonia and nitrites lol i said before u missed it lol im out of ammonia and nitrite drops ordered a api master test kit also new gh/kh kit so as off now cant test ammonia or nitrites i had my other cichlids my big adults in tank for 2 weeks before i bought new stock then put them in the old hex also wv had a big power outage i was without power for 4 days had a battery bubbler changed water to keep cool twice a day lost 1 fish from that then the stop eating happened.

but they seemed ok the one that died was my pretty jalo male but he was always sketchy from the get go hiding in a hole i made in background for a fish to hide if it was picked on he always stayed in it never left never ate then when he died so did the others one bye one .

i put aquarium salt in tank to help no loses in the past 2 days but as you said earlier if i have had bloat i never seen in the past years dont hadley ever lose fish last one was dropping water put mirror in tank to get fire jewel amped up he chased his mate to her death other than that nothin confusing if a fish is stressed they get ick and not one of these fish get ick with what ever problem it is lol but when i get test kit in the mail i can say what the amm and nit is.....


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## NeptunesNeighborhood (Apr 19, 2012)

If you're saying you had adults in a new tank for 2 weeks and then added more fish and they have died, your tank may be cycling. I don't know if you fishless cycled it or if you moved established bio media from another filter, but definitely post the results when you get your test kit.


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

jldean23 said:


> ok lol ummm all fish was new stock this was a brand new tank from the getgo my older fish are in the 35 hexagon had them for years!


All new fish are in new tank and all old fish in old tank, check...



jldean23 said:


> ...all stock is 3 months old some fish are in tank for about 2 weeks but problem was before them


I don't understand, what was the order of stocking? Has all the new stocking been in the new tank for 3 months or not?



jldean23 said:


> and as for ammonia and nitrites lol i said before u missed it lol im out of ammonia and nitrite drops ordered a api master test kit also new gh/kh kit so as off now cant test ammonia or nitrites


So, you have no idea if the tank is cycling of not, check...I don't trust nutrafin cycle unless you are going to use it to speed up a fishless cycle using ammonia to get the bio-filter going.



jldean23 said:


> i had my other cichlids my big adults in tank for 2 weeks before i bought new stock then put them in the old hex also wv had a big power outage i was without power for 4 days had a battery bubbler changed water to keep cool twice a day lost 1 fish from that then the stop eating happened.


Okay, old fish in new tank for two weeks then moved them back, then major changes in environment due to power outage, cause and effect, maybe?



jldean23 said:


> but they seemed ok the one that died was my pretty jalo male but he was always sketchy from the get go hiding in a hole i made in background for a fish to hide if it was picked on he always stayed in it never left never ate then when he died so did the others one bye one .


I read this as a new fish that never ate, I am assuming this fish was sick from the get go then.



jldean23 said:


> i put aquarium salt in tank to help no loses in the past 2 days but as you said earlier if i have had bloat i never seen in the past years dont hadley ever lose fish last one was dropping water put mirror in tank to get fire jewel amped up he chased his mate to her death


I hardly lose fish either, but stuff happens, doesn't mean you are a bad fish keeper if fish are currently dying or that you are a great fish keeper because you have been lucky enough avoid having illness come through the front door and not had to deal with something like this before.



jldean23 said:


> other than that nothin confusing if a fish is stressed they get ick and not one of these fish get ick with what ever problem it is lol but when i get test kit in the mail i can say what the amm and nit is.....


No, fish do not automatically get ich if stressed, IME Malawi cichlids are far more likely to get bloat.

I see three possibilities, a cycling tank poisoning the fish, stress induced illness by the moves and loss of power/loss of stable water, and/or sick fish that came through the door...


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## jldean23 (May 11, 2012)

ok when i first got tank set up once i got my canister filter up and running i had my old stock in the new tank for 2 weeks when i ordered the new fish i put old adult stock back into 35 hex kept the orange lab and jewel sold my bumblebees to my buddy unluckly he used colored cement bricks for backdrop in tank killed all of his fish including the bumblebees i sold him my old fish my adults are fine still kickin well.

And for the tank cycled yet it should be maybe its no and i didnt use any filter cartriges from 35hex to jump start cycle in new 55g tank why i used nutrafin cycle to help bacteria get started to help the new cycle off tank and yes new fish in new tank and old stock in hex

And all fish ate fine at first ate every day then out of the blue one bye one once a week one would quit eating then die some died from trip in mail lasted 2 days which is understandable but a total of 3 for sure are doing the quit eating then die and im not tacking any offence just glad im getting helped on this cause been doing this for years and has me dumb founded looks like a demonsi is starting the stop eating and hiding

should get testing kit in the next 4 days lol amazon free ship is slow!!!!


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

I'd start treating the entire tank with metro ASAP or you can try the bloat treatment with clout found here.


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## jldean23 (May 11, 2012)

no deaths as of 3 days got the new food in the hbh 8 veggie flake they are all eating it good my api test kit will be here tomorrow and the gh/kh will be here monday

if my tank is cycled perfect what would be the reading for perfect water never dealt much with nitrite and nitrates like i said before my ph is at 8.0-8.2 the ammonia should read 0 will know tomorrow. If my water quality is perfect what should everything be at in your zone of the perfect paramaters for a mbuna tank????

but ill wait to buy medications any local pet store doesnt carry those items maybe petsmart might and one thing that i have researched is if theyhave bloat or intestinal problem mostly bloat though there is always a white stringy pooh with bloat havent seen that i know some diseases or parisites can be killed by raising water temp.

as for now everyone seems fine maybe it was a fluke were the shipping done damage to them i dont know but can test water tomorrow!


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

jldean23 said:


> no deaths as of 3 days got the new food in the hbh 8 veggie flake they are all eating it good my api test kit will be here tomorrow and the gh/kh will be here monday
> 
> if my tank is cycled perfect what would be the reading for perfect water never dealt much with nitrite and nitrates like i said before my ph is at 8.0-8.2 the ammonia should read 0 will know tomorrow. If my water quality is perfect what should everything be at in your zone of the perfect paramaters for a mbuna tank????
> 
> ...


You do not always see white stringy poo, but it is a 100% predictor/confirmation of internal issues when you see it.

Ammonia and Nitrites should both read 0ppm - always.

Nitrates below 20ppm will be fine, I assume based on your water change schedule you will be under 10ppm.

Your pH is fine and based on the pH, I will guess your water is plenty hard, if it is tap water, since you aren't doing anything to get the pH up there, but you should confirm on Monday.

It doesn't hurt to have Metronidazole in the house if no one around you carries it, very safe for the fish and your bio-filter, one of the site sponsors has it very cheap.

I live 2hrs from Phoenix, so I keep a small fish medicine chest at the ready; where I can treat my 125 for most anything starting the day I see a problem. I have way to much tied up in fish to wait until I can make the 4 hr round to to the valley for medicine. Your mileage and situation will obviously vary.

Glad to hear 3 days of no loses...


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I always have to order Metronidazole online, but I would never be without it. I rarely use any other medication.

It's ich that is treated with heat and salt.


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## jldean23 (May 11, 2012)

I change my water 30%-35% every sat or sunday lol at first i had one heck of a algae outbreak in the 3rd week of starting tank on background had a plant bulb 
seemed my fish hated it wouldnt come out bye the time the light came algae disappeared in 2 days in the past with a new tank might get cloudy but water has been super my water out of the tap is 7.4 usually gh 3 kh 2-3 so before i added fish i used baking soda bring up ph and epsom to bring up gh.

i dont know if there is a way to bring up kh usually if i had high ammonia or med amm in my tanks in the past you could almost see a yellow tint in water like when i do water changes but with this tank barley see a tint im very surprised how good it has stayed lol my cichlid buddy his water from tap i swear his water is cloudy as **** for some reason he bought a canister filter helped a lil or it could have been what i think is he uses sinking pellets they get stuck in a non water movement zone and i think that is his water problem mine is so crystal clear and his isnt i think i have got him convinced to switch i also told him to get a cordyous cat any left overs he gets helps clean tank

ok since switch of food 3 days all are eating the hbh 8 veggie flakes another question might sound stupid if the protein is 28% fat 8% fiber 6% moisture 10% is that food enough protein or like in the week on every sat and sun through in earthworm flakes since it has more fish meal in it and thanks guys for all the help!!!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would not use earthworm flakes. Maybe NLS every other day or so. Fish meal is not the best ingredient...look for krill or a specific type of fish.


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## jldean23 (May 11, 2012)

ok im at work so i wont be able to post amm and nit till mid when i get off work tonight should post it about 12;30am


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## jldean23 (May 11, 2012)

ok done test ph is 8.2 
ammonia is below 0.25 maybe 0.18 ppm its lighter than 0.25 ppm in the middle of almost yellow and teal i think is 0.25 color 
nitrate is 3-4 ppm
nitrite is 0ppm

gh/kh will be done monday i dont trust my old tetra kit wait till monday it is old as it can be maybe 6 years old


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

jldean23 said:


> ok done test ph is 8.2
> ammonia is below 0.25 maybe 0.18 ppm its lighter than 0.25 ppm in the middle of almost yellow and teal i think is 0.25 color


Anything other that 0.0 is completely unacceptable and that is your issue.

Your tank is cycling, while ammonia is not 0.0 there is irreparable damage being done to your fish, I would score some Dr. Tim's if I could.

Otherwise 90% water change to start then 50% or more each day until you read 0.0 on your test for both Ammonia and Nitrites consistently.

Good Luck...


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## jldean23 (May 11, 2012)

just did the water change and im using prime suppost to get rid of ammonia


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## jldean23 (May 11, 2012)

ammonia is at 0


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## jldean23 (May 11, 2012)

no deaths 5 days i think ammonia is below the color of 0.0 ppm will get test kit for gh/kh tomorrow


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

jldean23 said:


> no deaths 5 days i think ammonia is below the color of 0.0 ppm will get test kit for gh/kh tomorrow


I'd keep up with the frequent large water changes and keep feeding levels very low while the tank continues to cycle.

Glad to hear you have identified the source of the problem.


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## jldean23 (May 11, 2012)

after all this time why is it still cycling been over 3 months i dont get it and i only done about 45% water change with prime changed it sat night checked it every day hasnt gone up at all?????


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## jldean23 (May 11, 2012)

ok just tested water again no ammonia got kit in
gh is 13 drops
kh is 8 drops

last time i checked kh it was 5 drops ph is still 8.2-8.3 went up some might take a bit to move it up more


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

jldean23 said:


> ok just tested water again no ammonia got kit in
> gh is 13 drops
> kh is 8 drops
> 
> last time i checked kh it was 5 drops ph is still 8.2-8.3 went up some might take a bit to move it up more












The less you mess with the water the better, what is it out of the tap?


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

jldean23 said:


> after all this time why is it still cycling been over 3 months i dont get it and i only done about 45% water change with prime changed it sat night checked it every day hasnt gone up at all?????


Overload your bio-filter, you get a mini-cycle.

We would need to know the days the fish were added, fish removed, numbers and sizes, any days the tank was empty, etc. to make an educated guess beyond that.

Please research fishless cycle for next time, I simply do not believe NutrFins claims regarding their product and question whether you ever actually had a cycled tank to begin with.

Glad to hear no new deaths.


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## igoryek69 (Dec 20, 2006)

IME..keeping demonsi in groups smaller than 15, it's a matter of time until they stop eating and start hiding in all corners. Hope you find a solution quick.


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## jldean23 (May 11, 2012)

I had 5 demonsi 2 died they all eat 1 likes a terra pot stays in it ok tank ran for 4 days without fish added old stock 8 adults for 2 weeks got new stock in 4 jalos 4 kingsezi 5 demonsi 4 yellowtail 2 alge eaters stayed in tank 1month in had power outage lost 3 jalos then my pretty kingsezi male then 2 demonsi and 3 female kingsezi

orderd more fish 3 1/2 weeks ago 2 male jalos 4 female jalos 2 female yellow tails 2 female kingsezi 4 albino arutus 3 died in shipping have one left total fish is 19-20 will have to count biggest is 2" maybe

demonsi in a group of 15 never heard of that one from the get-go the demonsi lasted the longest through all this no deats in my 35 hex 1 big fire red jewel 1 3 in eletric yellow and a large 5 in orange lab he has red teeth

and ill do fishless cycle next time you think dr. tims is the best thing to use fishless cycle or something else??


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## GoofBoy (Jul 3, 2007)

jldean23 said:


> I had 5 demonsi 2 died they all eat 1 likes a terra pot stays in it ok *tank ran for 4 days without fish* added old stock 8 adults for 2 weeks got new stock in 4 jalos 4 kingsezi 5 demonsi 4 yellowtail 2 alge eaters stayed in tank 1month in had power outage lost 3 jalos then my pretty kingsezi male then 2 demonsi and 3 female kingsezi
> 
> orderd more fish 3 1/2 weeks ago 2 male jalos 4 female jalos 2 female yellow tails 2 female kingsezi 4 albino arutus 3 died in shipping have one left total fish is 19-20 will have to count biggest is 2" maybe
> 
> ...


IMO, *this* is where you have no bio-filter whatsoever, I see nowhere where you could have a cycled the tank after that.

All you need is ammonia and a test kit to do a fishless cycle.

My version of fishless cycle (I use generic brand Ammonia that has no fragrance and does not foam when shaken).

IME, the ~100% water change makes the surfactants which are 1 in a billion concentration to start with a total non-issue, if you can score pure ammonia all the safer for the fish.

1 ) If you have some 'dirty' media, which you do from your established tanks, put some of it in the filter and add ammonia to get up to 3-5pmm - remember how much you put in. The dirty media will speed up the cycle time greatly.

2 ) Dream of all of the great fish you are going to get.

3 ) Check Ammonia every day, if (Ammonia > 0) go back to Step 2 if (Ammonia = 0) goto step 4

4 ) Add the same as the initial amount of Ammonia each day.

5 ) Dream of all of the great fish you are going to get.

6 ) Check Nitrites every day, if (Nitrites > 0) go back to Step 4 if (Nitrites= 0) goto step 7

7 ) You are cycled.

8 ) Add the same as the initial amount of Ammonia each day until the morning your fish are going to be put into the tank.

9 ) Morning you put fish into tank, turn off filters and do not touch them.

10 ) Drain tank completely.

11 ) Fill tank at temp you want to keep your fish and double dose with prime.

12 ) Wait 15 minutes and start your filters.

13 ) Add fish to your cycled tank later that day.

Do not let the tank sit with no food for your bio-filter (ammonia) for more than a day or so, it will die off, and you will lose your cycle.

Hope this helps someone.


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## jldean23 (May 11, 2012)

ok cool thanks lol to late now maybe if i get a new tank...


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