# Hybrid?????



## bran_jen

First off please don't yell at me for housing Electric Yellow, Jewel and Jack Dempsey's together. 
However I have created what I think is an Electric Yellow Jack Dempsey Hybrid or an Electric Yellow Jewel Hybrid.
I don't know how to insert a photo in here, but I do have a photo...
I can however email a photo to anyone who is interested


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## bran_jen

http://s1290.beta.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpeg.html


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## metricliman

They look like hybrids but mouthbrooders don't hybridize with substrate spawners.


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## bran_jen

that is all fine and dandy to say metricliman...however...i watched them come out of my yellow's mouth (female)...this is my second set of fry from this particular yellow, but the first one was with our male yellow...all of these fry came out almost black, some yellowed up, others did not...
at the time of fertilization....this tank housed:
2 female electric yellows
1 male electric yellow
1 female jewel
1 male jewel (recently died)
2 male jacks
1 female jack
1 pleco...
any time we realize our females are holding we remove them into their own tank until they release.
we have had 2 sets from one yellow (one reg and then this set) and one set from our second yellow, and our jewel's spawned, however the male ate them all and died...
i never intentionally meant to hybridize, however these are NOT pure yellows...
and they do live well together in their tank, so i can't see why something couldn't happen...

can anyone give me answers????


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## nmcichlid-aholic

Hypothesis: One of the Electric yellows that parented this batch of fry was hybrid to begin with and the traits of that fish are making themselves apparent in these offspring. I say this because Metricliman is correct - mouth-brooders and substrate spawners (which the jewels and JD's are) will not breed with each other.


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## Azedenkae

Aye, and even jewel cichlids are not known to be able to hybridize with americans.

I guess when it comes down to it it's _possible_, but I don't see JD traits in the fish you posted.


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## BC in SK

Azedenkae said:


> Aye, and even jewel cichlids are not known to be able to hybridize with americans.
> 
> I guess when it comes down to it it's _possible_, but I don't see JD traits in the fish you posted.


Really shouldn't say it is possible.......because we really don't know that it is possible. No one has ever seen or shown that a mouth brooding African cichld can breed with an CA/SA cichlid nor a jewel cichlid. It seems likely to me that they are just too genetically distant to hybirdize. There is a limit, at some point, in terms of what fish can or can't cross. Until some one actually shows that such a cross is possible.......I think it should be considered as very, very unlikely.

But yes, there are absolutely no JD or jewel cichlid traits in the fish in question. Hybrid yellow labs producing fry with some variation in traits. Not unusual for hybrid fish to spit out all kinds.


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## 24Tropheus

My guess is your Labidochromis caeruleus were not pure in the first place and your seeing the variation in the young typical in hybrids after the first generation.
Most look rather poor in comparison to thier pairents. 

Though Aulonocara x Labidochromis are pos they do not often happen by accident.
Kind of takes a bit of skill (usualy mixing sperm with eggs to create a new fish)
I have a pic somewhere of one.









All the best James


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## 24Tropheus

Poorish yellow lab (hybrids) producing poorly coloured young is not at all excetional. Breeding a subsrate spawner with a mouth brooder would be. :wink:


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## Azedenkae

BC in SK said:


> Azedenkae said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aye, and even jewel cichlids are not known to be able to hybridize with americans.
> 
> I guess when it comes down to it it's _possible_, but I don't see JD traits in the fish you posted.
> 
> 
> 
> Really shouldn't say it is possible.......because we really don't know that it is possible. No one has ever seen or shown that a mouth brooding African cichld can breed with an CA/SA cichlid nor a jewel cichlid. It seems likely to me that they are just too genetically distant to hybirdize. There is a limit, at some point, in terms of what fish can or can't cross. Until some one actually shows that such a cross is possible.......I think it should be considered as very, very unlikely.
> 
> But yes, there are absolutely no JD or jewel cichlid traits in the fish in question. Hybrid yellow labs producing fry with some variation in traits. Not unusual for hybrid fish to spit out all kinds.
Click to expand...

Yes it is very, very unlikely, but still possible. Possible =/= plausible after all.


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## BC in SK

Azedenkae said:


> Yes it is very, very unlikely, but still possible. Possible =/= plausible after all.


No, both the words possible and plausible imply likelyhood. Now we can't rule out and say such a cross is impossible, for certain...because we don't know for certain. But since we know for a number of reasons that it is very, very unlikely.....it is neither plausible nor something that should be claimed to be possible!

JD x yellow lab. Different sub-families . It would be a cross between Cichlinae X Pseudocrenibrinae. Never been shown to be possible. It would be a cross between different tibes: Heroini X Pseudocreninlibrini ( Only cross between tribes that i know of is Tropheini X Pseudocrenilibrini........these are all mouthbrooders, closely related and were once considered to be the same tibe , Haplochromini). There is every reason to beleive that these fish would be too genetically distant to cross!

Even if they were close enough genetically, breeding behavoir would be a major barier. They have to do things right in order for the eggs to get fertilized and cared for properly....let alone go through the act. The only cross between a mouth brooder and substrate spawner that I know of is Tilapia zilli X Oreochromis species (If my memeory serves me correctly, O. mosambicus). I read about it in Eleanor Trewavas's book on Tilapias. In the preface it talks about how suprised she was that such a cross was possible. But this is a cross of closely related species. Oreochromis species were once placed into the Tilapia genus and members of the Coptdon group (eg. T. zilli) of the Tilapia genus are very closely related to Oreochromis species. So the only known cross of a cichlid substrate spawner with a cichlid mouthbrooder is between closelyrelated species.

Had jewel cichlid pair up with salvivni. Over a year.....no eggs were ever layed. I blame differences in breeding behavoir that prevented a spawning act. And that is between 2 substrate spawners from the new and old world. Of course had they actually bred, I really doubt any fry would have come from it, because they are too genetically distant.


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## Azedenkae

Yes, that is correct, they all denote possibility. But in different ways.

Possible = It can happen, doesn't matter how likely.
Plausible = It is likely to happen.
Implausible = It is likely to not happen.

Again, it's possible, but implausible.

Don't see why you're so hung up on it. I'm just stating the truth, that it is _possible_. Meaning that it can happen. Because why? Because humans can hybridize with fish for example. Absurb, almost close to zero chance, but possible is still possible whether the chances are close to 0 or not. That's all I'm implying when I'm saying that it's 'possible'.

You say it yourself, it is highly highly unlikely, but that again doesn't mean that it's impossible - and therefore we shouldn't say that it is impossible (not possible), because it is possible. On the off chance it does happen, then it isn't impossible eh?

You don't have to explain to me how distant they are, I'm aware of that. Hence why I stated that it's quite implausible. But again, a possibility is still a possibility.

All there is to it lol. Chillax.


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## BC in SK

Azedenkae said:


> Again, it's possible, but implausible.


 Yes, it is definately NOT plausable.....implausable.

And no, should not say it is possible, because it very well may not be possible......very, very unlikely, so good reason to think it may be impossible. Dictionary definition of possible: 1. that can happen or be done. It has neither been shown that such a cross can happen or be done......so no reason to think it is possible.


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## Azedenkae

That _can_ happen. You say it yourself, it can happen, but chances are low. There's a chance that it can occur, and that's what possible means. When something is said to be possible it means that it can happen, there's a chance that it could occur, whatever _it_ is.


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## bran_jen

ok...thank you all for your imput....
most of you say you don't see jewel or jd in these fry...what do you see?????
they don't seem to have normal yellow bodies...but if not, what do they have
i did not intentionally breed these fish...but i also don't believe my tanks must be one fish breed either.
i am not as fish savvy like you all, and i came on here looking for advice and not scrutinized (like i was in the chat room)....

an no i will not kill these fish!


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## Azedenkae

Oh we're not scrutinizing you, just each other. XD

Okay let's get some actual opinions going then, apologies for not doing so earlier.

First off, nice mix of fish. A relatively peaceful tank, with JD being the worse usually and Jewels being the worse when/if they breed. Normally anyways, all fish have their own personalities. I keep heaps of varieties as well, love to see the contrasts.

Next up, whatever it is, hybrid or otherwise, definitely is interesting. Grow 'em out and see what turns out.  Alternatively, can you take a closer clearer side picture?


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## BC in SK

bran_jen said:


> ...what do you see?????
> they don't seem to have normal yellow bodies...but if not, what do they have


I see fry that are undoubtebly mbuna. I don't see, at least based on the picture, any fry that are 'black'. Some of the fry are darker in coloration, sort of a muddy yellow and showing the typical striping both horizontally and vertically that mbuna pocess,(but not always exhibated, especially as adults). Maybe they were 'black' at an earlier stage......but that is not apperant from the photo.

Never bred yellow labs, nor am i familier with exactly how yellow lab fry look like.......maybe somebody who has, can shed some light. It is well known that even some wild caught yellow labs can be sort of a dark color, with muddy blackish markings......traits that are not usually sought after as many people like the unmarked, bright yellow coloration. One of the more common yellow lab hybrids out there is a yellow lab X red zebra. IF your parent fish were of this kind of hybrid (or another cross) , I wouldn't even be too sure which of the two colored variations of fry is showing traits of another species. Then again it may be just variation with in the species; as well as mood/status with in the group.


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## cichlid-gal

Possibly posting a picture or pictures of the parents would help with they hybrid parents question and as yellow labs are notorious cross-breeders it seems more possible and plausible that the parents are hybrids and are passing on those traits


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## nmcichlid-aholic

Nobody is saying you need to kill them - if you are happy with them, then keep them. We just encourage people not to distribute hybrid fish because as you are finding out, it's confusing and disappointing to learn that your fish you thought were pure really aren't. I couldn't say for sure what these fish are made of aside from yellow labs, but it looks like it might be some species of Aulonocara. Just a guess, though.


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## Azedenkae

Aye, many people couldn't care less if their fish is pure or not, they just love the fish for what it is or what it has, be it coloration, personality, behaviour or whatever else. If you like it, then keep it.

But yes, when people don't label their fish properly then it gets really confusing, though I guess that applies to every fish. Anyways yeah don't have to kill 'em, just keep 'em and if you pass them on, all you need to make sure of is to label them correctly. If you think they are hybrids, then pass them on as such - possible hybrids.

Something that hasn't brought up is that this is possibly a new trait that has arisen, whatever it is (I honestly can't tell). Mutations occurs in every organism, and this is how new traits can be seen arising in fish (which can cause confusions).


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## asoloza

I know this was years ago but can i get that picture you have, do you have a pic as a fry and mid age and adult? I think I have an electric yellow x red jewel. Thanks


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## BC in SK

asoloza said:


> I know this was years ago but can i get that picture you have, do you have a pic as a fry and mid age and adult? I think I have an electric yellow x red jewel. Thanks


It's a 4 year old thread. Don't expect an answer from the original poster, as he/she never posted again on this forum.
I you want your fish ID'd, start a new thread and post a picture. A jewel X electric yellow hybrid is more then unlikely. As mentioned in this thread numerous times, they are too genetically distant, not too mention the fact mouthbrooder crossing with substrate spawner is a major hurdle. So far, mouth brooder X substrate spawner has only been accomplished by research scientists using fairly closely related species (not very distantly related species which is what a jewel and electric yellow are). Despite what Azendenkae keeps saying in this thread that it is possible.....IMO, nobody should be saying that and misleading people, because so far it has not been demonstrated to be possible!
Looking back at the picture of the supposed hybrid fry, I'm not even certain they are hybrids. I've since bred electric yellows many times, and although I have not seen any that look quite like some of those in the link, I am really not certain it is outside of the realm of what electric yellow fry may sometimes look. No and, ifs or buts, both horizontal and vertical striping is mbuna. They ALL have it, though it is not necessarily typically expressed. Of course, since yellow lab hyrbids are fairly common in the hobby, it is a definite possibility that one or more of the parents are carrying genes from another species. And that could be a mix with any Malawi in the hobby, peacocks and haps as well as mbuna.


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## Gabriel304

I have personally owned a a blood parrot and jewel pair. No fry from them but they did pair up just like central Americas. They went through all the motions and we're bonded. It's possible


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## BC in SK

Gabriel304 said:


> I have personally owned a a blood parrot and jewel pair. No fry from them but they did pair up just like central Americas. They went through all the motions and we're bonded. It's possible


Not really sure what you mean by "it's possible"'?
What is possible???
So what if they paired up and produced no fry. Both substrate spawners so it's not a mating of substrate spawner with mouthbrooder. If they didn't lay eggs it's not even a mating. If no fry were produced , it doesn't demonstrate that cichlids that are more distantly related can cross breed. As already mentioned in this thread, I had a jewel-salvini pair. Does not show that it is possible for more distantly related cichlids to crossbreed, unless they produce offspring


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## Sinister-Kisses

...yes, sorry, but if they don't produce fry then it hardly counts to prove "it's possible". Fish are hard-wired to reproduce. If they lack partners in a tank that they CAN reproduce with, it stands to reason they will attempt with what is available to them - it's instinct to want to reproduce. Random species go through the motions all the time, doesn't mean they will ever be able to produce viable offspring - therefore, going through the motions does not equal "possible".


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