# Sump is Done



## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Just some hind sight. Would have used 1 1/4 inch pipe for the siphion. Might have gone thru back wall, into closet for a much larger sump. 
Anyway, it is in and working. Just to refresh your memory, this is what got me going
http://www.aquariumlife.net/projects/diy-overflow/120.asp
Got all pipe and fittings worked out








Found a vessel that would fit in tank stand








Used shoe boxes as media holders








Thanx to Hoosier Tank, found an affordable pump, put it all in tank stand








After inital run, pulled it out and put holes in stand for pipes








I left the spray bar unglued so I could move it








Hope I didn`t stress the guys to much when drill met wood, they sure scattered  
Kind of a let down now that it`s done...Have another cabinet on the other side..
Hmmmmmm, maybe a canister fiter out of a 5 gallon bucket


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## hidenseek (Nov 13, 2005)

Is this for your 55g tank? What kind of pump are you using for the return? How is the flow from the spraybar?


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## cevvin (May 2, 2008)

Is that black pipe or did you paint/dye it?


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## afoctober2 (Apr 7, 2007)

I"m curious what size pipe did you use and what kind of pump did you match that up with


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## Hoosier Tank (May 8, 2007)

=D> 
Looks good and glad you were able to find everything to fit in your stand. Nice design on the overflows!!
I know what you mean about the "let down" when a project is completed. Almost a "Well, now what can I do?" kind of feeling.
Hope you are as happy with your pump as I am with mine. What size did you go with? I am going to write a review for CATALINA AQUARIUM so wait a while and see how it goes then you can add a reply in the reviews section. :thumb:


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Thanx all for the replies..I used 3/4 for the siphion and 1/2 for the return. The return pump is a CA-1800 with a flow rate of 750gph @ 0 head. I think I will take the ball valve out of the return and go with a gate valve for better control. I think return is 400-450gph, more or less. Even with the pump, and shipping, I have quite a bit less than $80 in the system. I like the Krylon Fusion paint, just hope my prep was good enough to make it last. 8) 
I did a power outage test, unplugged the pump and siphion stopped at the expected level :thumb: Plugged it back in, and siphion started again when tank reached it`s level.
BTW..most of this was done under the watchful eye of my wife, with that "can`t understand what you need this for" look.


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## remarkosmoc (Oct 19, 2005)

Looks nice. I did the same with 3/4" drain and 1/2" return. I too wish I had my drains bigger. Looks nice :thumb:


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

KaiserSousay said:


> Hmmmmmm, maybe a canister fiter out of a 5 gallon bucket


I have been thinking about that for a while. I attempted a DIY sump with trickly wet/dry that was very similar to yours, but after having it up and running for a few days I finally tore it down. I couldn't take the noise. After a lot of research and experimentation I realized you cannot have a quiet sump without a pre-drilled tank. Or at least not safely.

Anyway, so now that I have some time on my hands I have been trying to come up with my next DIY project. I know there was a post a while back about a DIY cannister but I think it got more complicated than he had bargained for and never ended up finishing it. And after some thought I think I am coming to that conclusion as well.

Of course I will probably end up doing it anyway and should in no way be discouraging to anyone who wants to try it!


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## hidenseek (Nov 13, 2005)

well actually you can make a sump very quiet. just insert some kind of tube or mesh inside your overflow pipe where the water is sucked down and it will break up the sucking noise. if you're talkin about the water that flows into the sump area then my only suggestion on that one is to sound proof your aquarium stand! there are plenty of diy's on here that talk about killing the sound from diy sumps. check that out before you make your claims of sumps being noisy. don't take offense. just my two cents.

even with a pre drilled tank you are use the same concept that any sump uses. water gets sucked down through a stand pipe. all people do is create some kind of device to stop the suction on the downpipe, but still allows the water to flow.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Noise is always a problem, more so when the wife asks, " will it always make that NOISE?" :x 
On the intake, the foam does soften the gurgle..on the pipe that delivers water to the sump itself..if you make a distribution pipe(like a spray bar) that sits on some sponge, noise is all but gone  
All in all, the little bit of extra sound is more than made up for by the filtration. I would love to just go and buy a nice X4, but thats just not gonna happen  
Thanx all


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## Hoosier Tank (May 8, 2007)

I must have lucked out with the overflow / sump on my 180...only the soothing sound of water flowing in the hose to the sump, no "Gurgling". For comparison, inside the closed cabinet I have a 10g fry tank with a small air pump for the sponge filter and an airstone. That thing isn't the loudest airpump I've ever had but its hum / bubbling drowns out any noise from the sump. :lol:


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## Zack2112 (Jul 11, 2008)

Hey, i have not yet built my sump but i planned on working off hoosier tanks thread. I have not tried this myself but this is a link i came across to quiet down noisy sumps. Its worth a shot for those who have noisy sumps and wanna quiet them down.

http://home.everestkc.net/jrobertson572 ... ction.html


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Thanx Zach2112..might give that a shot...got mine down to a whisper with some sponge and an end cap with a couple 1/4 holes in it. Put the sponge in some pipe I stuck in the 90 that is unglued, topped off with the end cap.
Even if it ain`t broke, Sump it!


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

So actually I know you can make a quiet sump. Literally quiet - not "low noise", and no "soothing sounds". And if you read what I wrote I actually said that you can have a quiet sump, but only if the tank is drilled. And as a side note I have checked my claims. I will explain since people seem interested.

First of all, based on some of the suggestions made it needs to be understood that in a sump system there are two sources of noise: the drain pipe in the tank and the sump. In both the drain pipe and the sump the noise has one cause - the mixture of air and water.

In the drain pipe the noise comes from air being sucked into the drainpipe. In the sump the noise comes from air exiting the drain pipe, either above or below the water line.

Most DIY experiments you will find deal with only one source of noise, the drainpipe. The most commonly used is the Durso standpipe. This does a very decent job. Another popular one is the Hoffer gurgle buster which was also posted. However, these solutions will not a silent sump make, since they only address one source of noise. For this reason you will be very hard pressed to find a solution to a quiet sump. In order to do that you need a complete solution that will eliminate both sources of noise.

There are two methods that I have found and tested that will eliminate all noise from a sump - making the noise level equivalent to that of a canister. This one is the easiest to implement:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showt ... genumber=1

The concept is this. If you can eliminate the air from getting sucked into the drainpipe then you will have yourself a quiet sump. One way to achieve this is to control the flow of the water out of the drain pipe thereby creating a true siphon. Most drain pipes do not act as true siphons, nor can they with the presence of air. This is the equivalent to a siphon used when doing water changes. No air in your drain pipe means no noise.

Now, conceptually this can work with a non drilled tank. However it is not advisable. The reason being that the dynamics of a HOB overflow are the not same as a gravity controlled drain. The draining ability of a HOB overflow is a function of placement relative to the water line as well as the volume of water in the source and drain. From everything that I have seen, read, or testing, with a HOB overflow you are limited to the existing DIY solution that only address the drainpipe noise, not the sump noise. That is why I said only a drilled tank can have a quiet sump.


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## Hoosier Tank (May 8, 2007)

Wow... nice read on RC there *boredatwork*! And I see it was contriversial at first but started to make sence to me later on. Plus noise level is kind of subjective. Some may think mine is disturbingly loud while I think it's quiet. Thats why I tried to compare it to the airpump in my fry tank.... but those do vary in sound level as well. :roll: 
I Have seen some HOB overflows that have an airline run from above the water level, down into the drain tube to release the air... That is supposed to help quiet them as well.


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## willny1 (Nov 17, 2008)

I am waiting arrival of my pump (thanks guys :thumb: )

I see that some of you are not happy with 3/4 for the siphon and 1/2 for the return. Can you explain why?

I want to try and get this right the first time :lol:

I was searching the forum and came across a thread where someone said that if you put a bigger return line than what the output size of the pump is, it will increase your return rate. Because of less friction basically.

Kaiser, You put your spray bar so that is pushes water the full lenght of the tank? Or is that positioned so that it goes front to back? How long did you make it?


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Greetings Will..I would have gone with 1" on the siphion, more flow to the sump. The 3/4 is alright, it will not out run my pump. I would guess total system flow at 450-550gph. The 1/2 return is just fine for me. Old wisdom says larger intake than outflow on pumps. I never glued the spraybar, so I could rotate it. Right now it is pointed up enough to help out gas the water. The water is calm about 6" away from the spraybar. As far as any back preassure(friction) the more sharp bends(90deg.Elbows)the harder the water needs to be pushed.
The spraybar is a tight fit from back to front on the left hand end of the tank.
In my original post I said I would have gone through the wall behind the tank for a much larger sump, 30gal tub. The wife will be away next month for 2 weeks, once it`s done....
How mad could she get  
Good luck on your sump


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## Rockydog (Oct 21, 2007)

boredatwork said:


> There are two methods that I have found and tested that will eliminate all noise from a sump - making the noise level equivalent to that of a canister. This one is the easiest to implement:
> 
> http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showt ... genumber=1


Thank you so much for that link. I've been struggling to silence the bubbling in my sump since the beginning without much success. That thread lead me to a silencing T by MrSandman










Within 5 minutes from some spare parts my sump is completely silent.

Thanks again, Rocky


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## willny1 (Nov 17, 2008)

Thanks for the info Kieser.

I also believe it is easier to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission


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## willny1 (Nov 17, 2008)

Thanks for the info Kieser.

I also believe it is easier to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission 

I think I will be getting the same pump as you. The CA1800 rated at 650gph @ o head. My head loss will be 4 feet give or tale an inch or three. I looked on the website for head loss and it wasnt too descriptive. Any information provided to you in the box regarding head loss?

My guess is the pump would be at 75%. Giving me 488 gph at 4 feet.

From what I found :

Sch 40 Pipe Size - 3/4 - 660 gph

- 1" - 960 gph

Wouldn't going up to an inch overflow be too much for the output of the pump at this point? Or am I missing something...

Hoping to go pick up the supplies for PVC overflow tomorrow. :fish:


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## mia_ann (Dec 20, 2008)

Maybe this is a dumb question, but what is the purpose of the pump?


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

After running this for awhile, yes I would(will)go with 1" siphion..I will put a gate valve in this line so as to match my pumps output, wide open. Right now, I have a ball valve controlling the pump output, about 3/4 open. My sump is small, 6.75gal, was the largest I could get into my stand. The in and out for this is very tricky. Going to a larger sump, 18-30gal. will alow me more lattitude. Will keep the ball valve on the pump side for any service issues
Am very happy with my lil systems performance, best dollar for filter I ever spent. :thumb:


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## willny1 (Nov 17, 2008)

mia_ann said:


> Maybe this is a dumb question, but what is the purpose of the pump?


Not a dumb question at all. 
Link below tells you all about it.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_sumps.php


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

Rockydog said:


> boredatwork said:
> 
> 
> > There are two methods that I have found and tested that will eliminate all noise from a sump - making the noise level equivalent to that of a canister. This one is the easiest to implement:
> ...


I also tried that method. In my opinion I was not as happy with the results as with the Herbie method, but I found it pretty effective since it does treat the issue of the noise in the sump itself. But you still have air in the drain, and that creates some amount of noise.

The presence of noise comes from air in the drain, but the amount of noise has a lot of factors. When I first did my testing of different drain systems I was using a very short drain pipe - from tank to sump was about 1 foot. In that system, almost all of the drain types were pretty quiet. But when I changed to a longer drain thats when the type of drain system made a big difference. Point is that there are a lot of factors to the amount of noise. So different systems can offer acceptable results. Tthe only way to remove the noise is to remove the air in the drain pipe.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Update on an update..the "pretzel" is gone, too much noise(from both the overflow and my wife)
I was going with bulldogg7 skimmerless overflow, but you know that will just put me looking at gurgle busters again.
I now have a skimmer, overflow, 2 U tubes going into 1 1/4 line to the sump.
Know what...no noise..none..nada..zip =D> 
I had to put a gate valve on the flow into the sump, it was out running my pump wide open.
The plus(other than noise) is the increased flow. Seems easier to control the sumps level.
The minus is not having my pick up tubes down where the grungy stuff lives. 
Now moving my hob around for the best pick up I can get.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

So that is a known method to silence an overflow and in my experience it is the only way to quiet a sump. The only issue is that most designs that implement the gate valve account for a second emergency drain. The reasons are (very) well documented in this thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showt ... rpage=25&p agenumber=1

As well as this one:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showt ... genumber=1

But if you don't want to read it all (which takes all of the fun out of it) I can summarize. Of course I am assuming you didn't already do this. I read your post a few times and don't get the impression that you did.

To recap, by controlling the flow through the drain pipe with the gate valve you are eliminating the air being sucked in - only water travels down the drain. This creates a true siphon and is noise free. A true siphon will also realize a higher maximum flow rate then a regular drain pipe. The problem is that the gate valve setting is dependent on the flow rate of the water out of the tank. If there were to be any change in the flow rate (through any number of factors) then the gate valve would need to be adjusted. If you watch your tank religiously 24 hours a day you might be able to catch it when the drain gets off balance. But if you don't then you can theoretically have a situation where the drain flow rate falls below the return pump output. This has been documented. However, some people claim this is not a realistic scenario, but most setups I have seen usually include at least one emergency drain just in case.

Also, if you want to spend a few days reading read through the whole thread on the first link there is a discussion at the end as to why this method may not be "safe" for external overflow setups. Something to think about. But I also know there was one person who did it without any problems (at least at the time of the post).

Those issues aside I am glad someone else finds overflows noisy. I always feel like I'm the only one, haha.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Thanx BAW
Always a pleasure to see your posts. I have seen the first(Herbie) but not the other.
Now that there is some peace and QUIET, maybe I can get some reading done  
I will wait a day or two to get into the second thread, need some me time that does not involve plasitc pipe and solvent.
Sheesh..the guy did his drawings on autocad, reef people can be so in intimidating.


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## boredatwork (Sep 14, 2007)

KaiserSousay said:


> reef people can be so in intimidating.


I agree, but that's why I always like to see the reef stuff coming over to the freshwater world.

As for that second thread its more of reading interest than implementation, in my opinion.


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