# What species of female peacock/hap is this?



## rpd1113 (Jun 7, 2015)

I ordered this girl from live fish direct some time ago. I have been trying to ID her but am having some trouble finding anything that looks like an exact match. From my order receipt I have deduced that it is either a female apache or red shoulder. Could be something else but I 100% sure ID'ed the others and those were the only 2 that I wasn't positive about the ID. She has already had about 3 batches of fry and they must all be hybrids because I have no male apache or red shoulders in my tank. The fry are all still about an inch but already showing a variety of colors in each batch. On top of that from my research I have found that apache cichlids are a hybrid also so who knows what the make up could be? And there doesn't seem to be a lot of info out there about Apache cichlids so I can't even tell how the colors may vary from one strain to another. She has a little hint of yellow on the anal fin and has a very boxy/stout shape for a peacock? Anyone have any thoughts on what it may be?


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

If is a female Aulonocara, but you will never know which type for certain.


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## Liz777 (Apr 27, 2015)

Looks just like one of my females from my OB Peacocks. And I really mean just like my girl.


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## Ten Tonne Tomahawk (Apr 24, 2015)

Liz777 said:


> Looks just like one of my females from my OB Peacocks. And I really mean just like my girl.


 Funny, this is not an O.B. female.

there is plenty that it isn't, but I have no idea what it is. You will find this ID impossible.


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## Liz777 (Apr 27, 2015)

Mine came from a female peacock. I pulled her out of the tank and that's what she spit. That's really interesting. So it's some kind of male something?



Ten Tonne Tomahawk said:


> Liz777 said:
> 
> 
> > Looks just like one of my females from my OB Peacocks. And I really mean just like my girl.
> ...


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## Liz777 (Apr 27, 2015)

Maybe OB and Acei from my tank???



Ten Tonne Tomahawk said:


> Liz777 said:
> 
> 
> > Looks just like one of my females from my OB Peacocks. And I really mean just like my girl.
> ...


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## Liz777 (Apr 27, 2015)

I can see why you're thinking red shoulder since I just saw one online that looks like what we have. I swear it looks like you peeked in my window and took a picture of my fish. I guess it will remain a mystery as to what we have. :?



rpd1113 said:


> I ordered this girl from live fish direct some time ago. I have been trying to ID her but am having some trouble finding anything that looks like an exact match. From my order receipt I have deduced that it is either a female apache or red shoulder. Could be something else but I 100% sure ID'ed the others and those were the only 2 that I wasn't positive about the ID. She has already had about 3 batches of fry and they must all be hybrids because I have no male apache or red shoulders in my tank. The fry are all still about an inch but already showing a variety of colors in each batch. On top of that from my research I have found that apache cichlids are a hybrid also so who knows what the make up could be? And there doesn't seem to be a lot of info out there about Apache cichlids so I can't even tell how the colors may vary from one strain to another. She has a little hint of yellow on the anal fin and has a very boxy/stout shape for a peacock? Anyone have any thoughts on what it may be?


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

She is just a hybrid that happens to look like one of the previous ancestors. Same as the OB Peacock hybrid offspring.

These are just hybrids. They are nothing specific. The deeper body and less defined head may just mean a Hap X Aulonocara cross, which is exactly what the Apache is I think. Apache might be Protomelas spilonatus crossed with Aulonocara(?), more or less.

These Apaches are somewhat of a mystery, try looking for pictures of adults... you find different looking fish, some look like Spilonatus, some look quite different with a red shoulder. Think they are often hormoned.


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## Ten Tonne Tomahawk (Apr 24, 2015)

Thing is,
"Red Shoulder" is a colour variation of Aulonocara Stuartgranti. There are at least 20 colour varieties of this species alone. Anything from completely Blue, to completely yellow and all manner of in between. And that is 1 species. 1. You would have NO way of discerning which variety this girl is, and that would be assuming she's a Stuartgranti, which would be a pretty big assumption.
There are about 4 species that I would safely say it isn't, Aquillonium, Jacobfriebergi, Kandeensis or Ethelwynnae. That only leaves a plethora of possibilities left.


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## Liz777 (Apr 27, 2015)

I think you're right, mine is just reflecting ancestory like my son has his grandmother's nose. My male from the OB spawn looks exactly like some of the red shoulders that I've seen in some pictures over the past few days.

It's fun looking and speculating.

Thank you for the reply.



noki said:


> She is just a hybrid that happens to look like one of the previous ancestors. Same as the OB Peacock hybrid offspring.
> 
> These are just hybrids. They are nothing specific. The deeper body and less defined head may just mean a Hap X Aulonocara cross, which is exactly what the Apache is I think. Apache might be Protomelas spilonatus crossed with Aulonocara(?), more or less.
> 
> These Apaches are somewhat of a mystery, try looking for pictures of adults... you find different looking fish, some look like Spilonatus, some look quite different with a red shoulder. Think they are often hormoned.


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## Liz777 (Apr 27, 2015)

I've definitely noticed the color varieties like you've said. That was a bit confusing to me until you cleared that up.

Thank You



Ten Tonne Tomahawk said:


> Thing is,
> "Red Shoulder" is a colour variation of Aulonocara Stuartgranti. There are at least 20 colour varieties of this species alone. Anything from completely Blue, to completely yellow and all manner of in between. And that is 1 species. 1. You would have NO way of discerning which variety this girl is, and that would be assuming she's a Stuartgranti, which would be a pretty big assumption.
> There are about 4 species that I would safely say it isn't, Aquillonium, Jacobfriebergi, Kandeensis or Ethelwynnae. That only leaves a plethora of possibilities left.


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## Ten Tonne Tomahawk (Apr 24, 2015)

Liz777 said:


> I've definitely noticed the color varieties like you've said. That was a bit confusing to me until you cleared that up.
> 
> Thank You
> 
> ...


You would think it was a case of several different species, however, ichthyologists have studied this and it is a very unique case of one species with an extraordinary amount of colour morphs, mostly dependent on the reigon of the lake it happens to be gound in. Almost Unique in the cichlid realm, I think Ophthalmotilapia ventralis has a fair number, as does Frontosa, but I think Stuartgranti has the most.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

Ten Tonne Tomahawk said:


> You would think it was a case of several different species, however, ichthyologists have studied this and it is a very unique case of one species with an extraordinary amount of colour morphs, mostly dependent on the reigon of the lake it happens to be gound in. Almost Unique in the cichlid realm, I think Ophthalmotilapia ventralis has a fair number, as does Frontosa, but I think Stuartgranti has the most.


Please understand, I'm not picking on you in the least.... The challenge in such a discussion, is exactly what is a species? I mean if you look at it over time, Pseudotropheus zebra probably had the most morphs, but then they got split into dozens of species, estherae, callainos... heck we could go on forever...

Of course A. stuartgranti has a bunch of morphs, but in this liquid world of nomenclature, at what point does that end up as 15 species?

Splitters and lumpers... crazy stuff. opcorn: :lol:


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## Ten Tonne Tomahawk (Apr 24, 2015)

Fogelhund said:


> Ten Tonne Tomahawk said:
> 
> 
> > You would think it was a case of several different species, however, ichthyologists have studied this and it is a very unique case of one species with an extraordinary amount of colour morphs, mostly dependent on the reigon of the lake it happens to be gound in. Almost Unique in the cichlid realm, I think Ophthalmotilapia ventralis has a fair number, as does Frontosa, but I think Stuartgranti has the most.
> ...


I'd completely agree that it needs to happen, it's just way too hard. From what I understand though, they use intestinal length, fin Rays, teeth, skeletal composition and scale positioning and the stuartgranti juggernaut can't be split? I can't understand it and I agree it should change. It likely will once the lab coats take a closer look. 
Also, fogulhund, in this hobby, you do need a bit of a thick skin. If you stick your neck out to venture some advice or knowledge, you will likely bump heads with 2 very different groups of people. 1. The tellers of all and knowers of nothing. They say a little bit ok knowledge can be a dangerous thing.these fools are deadly. These are the people who try to tell you about fish having a 3 second memory. I try to shut these out and ignore them. Then there are the second group. The well educated. These are the ones to listen to. They may have a very focused knowledge on a handful of species, but their knowledge is very good most times. They may have a blanketing deep knowledge of almost everything, but I have found this to be rare outside of shop keepers. Most people who are worth listening to will have a pretty broad knowledge across a large, but focussed area, like Mauna, or tanga yikes, for example. Whatever the case, I like to listen to the second group and this forum has plenty. I don't consider spirited discussion, or correction 'picking on' me. You give more than most and are worth listening to.


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