# How many plants to see a reduction of nitrates?



## rgr4475

In a 180g tank, how heavy would I have to have my tank planted to notice some type of reduction of nitrates or slowed down production between water changes?


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## DJRansome

For me it was not so much how many as what kind. Fast growing plants definitely rather than medium or slow growing. For me even one plant of vallisneria contortionist sucks the nitrates out of my tank in like a week. But then if I don't fertilize to raise the nitrates back up it starts to die and I get cyanobacteria.


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## PfunMo

Definitely a question with no firm answer. The more and faster growing , the better. But as mentioned it takes quite a lot to balance the good and bad points on planted tanks with cichlids. For my money, I found the plants to be far more effort and study than water changing. While doing water changes for fish health is a nuisance, it is a far more easily managed setup. Kind of like juggling one or two things instead of ten! Plants are nice but definitely take a learning curve to get it right.


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## Flippercon

I don't remember who told me but I was told house plants are the best at this. I was told to put the roots in the water and it should do the trick. I have not tried this yet,but will be as soon as I get to my mothers to steal a few plants. I too am trying to find some way to reduce nitrates. Keep us posted on progress with this.


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## rgr4475

Great info, thanks a lot.


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## prov356

Flippercon said:


> I don't remember who told me but I was told house plants are the best at this. I was told to put the roots in the water and it should do the trick. I have not tried this yet,but will be as soon as I get to my mothers to steal a few plants. I too am trying to find some way to reduce nitrates. Keep us posted on progress with this.


That was me. I got it from Diana Walstad's book 'Ecology of the Planted Aquarium'.


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## Flippercon

Yes how could I forget. Thanks Tim


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## mthom211

You could use a floater like frogbit, it is very good and very easy to grow or put some pothos cuttings in, they grow like a weed in my tank


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## paradigmsk8er

I've had good luck with letting my java ferns do their own thing in the tank...After a few runners broke off and began floating around, I let them be and the cycle continued...I ended up with dozens of plants, most small, that just grabbed onto spots in the tank...95% of them are still floating or at least have completely exposed roots and have been tied down with hemp rope and a staple into my background. My nitrates stay nil almost all the time..

I can't honestly tell you how much is due to my sump and how much is due to the plants but they certanily make a difference. I have some java moss growing randomly throughout the tank too though it has proven more difficult to cultivate, so I just let it go and luckily some colonies have established themselves. The fish leave both alone and since the plants are out of the substrate the fish don't uproot them much either.


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## kriskm

Some people in our local fish club have been experimenting with willow branches. They produce a rooting hormone, so the minute you put the cut end in water, they start producing roots and sucking up nutrients from the water. Their rooting hormone can also help other plants in the tank, as it will encourage those plants to grow more roots too. As long as you don't mind a small willow tree growing out the top of your tank.


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## Rhinox

I've heard some good things about red mangroves. Technically, they grow best in brackish/salt water setups, but I've been hearing they do just fine in fresh water to, albiet grow a little slower. Personally, I'm skeptical of their ability to suck up nitrate because they grow so slowly, though. I mean, they're a tree!


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## Flippercon

Hey Tim can you go in your book and name a couple of these house plants? I was talking to someone at work about this idea and they said to be careful cause some house plants viny ones have poison.


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## rgr4475

More good ideas :thumb:


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## prov356

Flippercon said:


> Hey Tim can you go in your book and name a couple of these house plants? I was talking to someone at work about this idea and they said to be careful cause some house plants viny ones have poison.


I'll check it out this weekend, but I'm sure they're thinking of the plant being poisonous when eaten, particularly by pets. I really doubt that there are plants that release toxins through their root system.


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## Flippercon

Not to Hijack rgr4475 ,but I finally got over to my moms and she gave me a bunch of Pothos ivy (devils ivy) and I stuck it in the tank. I have seen her from these things out of cups after they were clipped. I have them on 4 of my tanks at the moment. All 4 tanks are different in many ways : substrate,plants ,fish , and filters. So I will revisit this post in a months time to update the outcome.


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## rgr4475

Flippercon said:


> Not to Hijack rgr4475 ,but I finally got over to my moms and she gave me a bunch of Pothos ivy (devils ivy) and I stuck it in the tank. I have seen her from these things out of cups after they were clipped. I have them on 4 of my tanks at the moment. All 4 tanks are different in many ways : substrate,plants ,fish , and filters. So I will revisit this post in a months time to update the outcome.


No, please do. Very interested in hearing the results. Thanks!


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## Flippercon

Will do . The tanks they are on are different in size from 10g to 125g. The ten has HOB no substrate and krib fry , 20g has HOB moon sand cons/danois, 55 has HOB sand driftwood various cichlids, and 125 has canister sand and multiple Ebjd/jd/loaches/dithers. So there is many variables to work with. I just hope the out come is what we expect. :fish:


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## FishFlake

I set up a 10g just to see how well some plants removed the nitrates. It has 2 red mangroves and every inch of the surface is stuffed with water lettuce. I started with just a few lettuces, but now it's a carpet. There are no fish. Each week I drain out about 1/2 - 2/3 of the water and replace it with the water from my CA tank water change. Afterwards the nitrates in the 10g measure about 10. By the next water change the nitrates are at zero.


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## Flippercon

FishFlake said:


> I set up a 10g just to see how well some plants removed the nitrates. It has 2 red mangroves and every inch of the surface is stuffed with water lettuce. I started with just a few lettuces, but now it's a carpet. There are no fish. Each week I drain out about 1/2 - 2/3 of the water and replace it with the water from my CA tank water change. Afterwards the nitrates in the 10g measure about 10. By the next water change the nitrates are at zero.


Some confirmation there ! The plant idea is looking good. Thanks for the post fishflake


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## Flippercon

Ok I have had the ivy in the tanks for 3 weeks now and the results are great. no harm to any fish at all. My dojo loach hangs off it. :lol: well the reduction in nitrates is outstanding. I have not changed wc or feeding schedules at all just the ivy in the tank.My 125 had a bad nitrate problem it was going up to 20-30ppm in 3days, with 2 50% wc with vacuum a week. Now its one 50% wc a week and nitrates are at 10 ppm.  :thumb: I would definitely recommend this method to help with nitrate reduction, as long as wc were done on a regular basis.


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## rgr4475

Flippercon said:


> Ok I have had the ivy in the tanks for 3 weeks now and the results are great. no harm to any fish at all. My dojo loach hangs off it. :lol: well the reduction in nitrates is outstanding. I have not changed wc or feeding schedules at all just the ivy in the tank.My 125 had a bad nitrate problem it was going up to 20-30ppm in 3days, with 2 50% wc with vacuum a week. Now its one 50% wc a week and nitrates are at 10 ppm.  :thumb: I would definitely recommend this method to help with nitrate reduction, as long as wc were done on a regular basis.


Very Cool! Thanks for experimenting!


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## Flippercon

Yeah no problem. Gotta go steal some more from my mothers house. Thinking about getting a bunch and rubberbanding a bunch together and growing it up the wall. Got an experiment to make a curtain out of some. I have a 55 in front of a window and this would be a pretty cool curtain if I can get enough.


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## rgr4475

Flippercon said:


> Yeah no problem. Gotta go steal some more from my mothers house. Thinking about getting a bunch and rubberbanding a bunch together and growing it up the wall. Got an experiment to make a curtain out of some. I have a 55 in front of a window and this would be a pretty cool curtain if I can get enough.


Good idea. But as of right now, you just threw some on top of the water?


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## Flippercon

I stuck the cuttings (like a vine) in the water. So one end was under the water (about 4-6") , and the rest I Hung over the side of the tank. My idea was to just bunch more together with a rubber band so you have more then just a few in the water. Kinda like a 5x effect. I will take some pictures when I get off work.


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## rgr4475

Flippercon said:


> I stuck the cuttings (like a vine) in the water. So one end was under the water (about 4-6") , and the rest I Hung over the side of the tank. My idea was to just bunch more together with a rubber band so you have more then just a few in the water. Kinda like a 5x effect. I will take some pictures when I get off work.


Thanks


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## Flippercon

Here are those pics.


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## DanniGirl

Ok- convinced me here. -I'm going to have to try that! 
Thanks!


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## Flippercon

If you do use Pothos ivy be cautious if you have other animals in the house. If it is ingested by a cat or dog it could be a problem .


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## rgr4475

Thanks for the pics, def gonna give it a try as well


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## DanniGirl

Flippercon said:


> If you do use Pothos ivy be cautious if you have other animals in the house. If it is ingested by a cat or dog it could be a problem .


Thanks, I appreciate the warning.  
My weims used to get into everything so...now the house is pretty much weimaraner proof. (They've also consumed just about everything that fits in their mouth. Weims are a whole nutha' story. :roll: :lol: )

My tanks are no exception. Most of the them are 5' tall, (at the very least) so the plants will be fine. I'm thinking of the ivy or bamboo.
:thumb:


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## Jimring

If the pothos, or other plants do well on the aquarium water, why not use water change water to water the rest of your houseplants? 
Kind of a way to have one hobby help another.


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## Flippercon

Well my mother has the green thumb. So I take here 5-10 gallons a week for here plants. She is amazed on how good it works. If I had house plants I would but really don't get enough light in the apartment for them .


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## prov356

Jimring said:


> If the pothos, or other plants do well on the aquarium water, why not use water change water to water the rest of your houseplants?
> Kind of a way to have one hobby help another.


I do that in my office. I have a six gallon tank and change out a bit weekly, rinse the filter pad in that water, then use it to water my office plants. They're growing like weeds.


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## londonloco

House plants should not be submerged in an aquarium, eventually they will just melt away, adding to your nitrate. However, just rooting them in a container on top of your aquarium and letting them grow above your aquarium is fine. There is a guy on various forums that sells containers to specifically do this, the set ups are called Ripariums, google it if your interested in seeing some really different pretty tanks. I have a bunch of the old style containers with the suction cups (they now make them with magnets), I would be willing to send one for the cost of shipping if anyone is interested to try this, pm me if your interested. Two of my tanks have philodendron's growing in these containers, I use flourite gravel to hold the plant (roots) in place. The roots grow into the tank, need cutting back often. Below is a pic of my 26g bow and the container in the tank...started with a small sprig, been growing about 8 months. With black painted back and the black flourite, you can hardly see the container.


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## Flippercon

See confirmation everywhere. I do like those containers a lot. I have a 55 that I would like to put a bunch across the top. Maybe like a window planter across the back top full of this stuff. The tank is right in front of a window, trying for a curtain of ivy.


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## JoelRHale

Here is some interesting reading for you all.

Take a look at Table 1 and note the high nitrate consuming plants. My plan is to buy a plant growth bulb for a spare light and light my sump. In that, install an elevated drip tray constantly watered by a spare Fluval 204. In the drip tray will be a stryofoam planter or something else (not sure what is fish safe or not, any suggestions?) and plant one of those high potential grasses in it.

These plants grow very easily, can easily be trimmed, and soak up a lot of nitrate.


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## FishFlake

As a point of interest, here is a list of floating plants used in wastewater treatment plants in order of nutrient uptake from highest to lowest. All are available to us from aquarium plant suppliers.

1) Water Hyacinth 
2)Water Lettuce
3 Pennywort (Hydrocotlye sp)
4 Alligator weed (Alternathera sp)
5)Duckweed
6)Salvinia sp

I wonder where pothos and other house plants would fall on this list.


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## JoelRHale

Thank you for that! Do you have a source? I would love to read up more on this.

I'm not sure what the aquatic numbers are, but with those crops, I've been reading that 10,000 ppm in one growing season isn't out of the picture. It's more realistically 3,000-4,000. So even on the low end, commercial crops have a potential to take 58-76 ppm a week and a high end of almost 200 ppm a week. These measurements are per bale but I assume it would be a uniform measurement across and be relatively close to each plants absorbing potential. It would be interesting to see how these compare.

I just got the canister running in the sump last night without any problems so now I just have to figure out a way to build this planting tray.


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## FishFlake

Here's the link to the paper I read. It also lists several emergent plants as well. Probably a lot of other sources for info out there too.

http://wetlands.ifas.ufl.edu/publicatio ... zation.pdf


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## djzman

Hi.

There are a lot of replies, but I'll venture to add one more.

I've been using hornwart (floater with thin, radial leaves). I had it in a 'fuge, thinking that the fish would just devastate it in the main tank. But like some of the other posters, I just put a little piece in the tank and it grows faster than the inhabitants can eat it. Actually, only a couple of the cichilds mess with it at all.

As far a nitrate reduction, I have a 135 and a 29 gal refugium. I "harvest" the hornwart no less often than monthly, and it fills back up in between. In the main tank, it's like another 20-30 "gallons" of plant ball.

What I have found, is that the nitrate levels are much more stable, predictable, and understandable. I still have to change water, but the level doesn't go into the "blood red" color on the test kit as readily.

I'll keep going with the hornwart, and I like the ideas of a wall of pothos above my tank, so I think I'll add that too ... I also like the aesthetic look of the plants in the water. Baby fish like it too.

My $0.02,

djzman


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## londonloco

Phyllanthus fluitans or Red Root Floater, I've never had it in any of my tanks, but is on the "to keep list". Very pretty plant and supposedly a nutrient hog:


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## jkulysses

Spider plants are perfect for this especially if you have one that is already shooting out the babies that hang down. They root out super fast especially in an aquarium and are not toxic to eat even to pets.


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## Flippercon

jkulysses said:


> Spider plants are perfect for this especially if you have one that is already shooting out the babies that hang down. They root out super fast especially in an aquarium and are not toxic to eat even to pets.


Gonna have to do this, and see which one uses more nitrates. Good idea by the way.


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## 69183

Funny I was reading this post this morning. Went to the Home Depot to pick up a few things and they had a pothos vine on sale, so I bought it. So I went to Wally World and picked up some black gravel and a couple small clear plastic bath caddy's with suction cups.

Pulled the vines out of the pot and rinsed them off really good, letting them sit in the sink with water for an hour or so. Put a little bit of gravel in the caddy, then put a about 3 stalks of the ivy in and covered and filled the caddy with the gravel. Then stuck them on the back of the aquarium. Got one on each side, would have put another in the middle, but they only had 2 of the caddy's.


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## Flippercon

These plants will melt if not given enough light. They don't need much but make sure it gets a little.


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## Chunkanese

Jimring said:


> If the pothos, or other plants do well on the aquarium water, why not use water change water to water the rest of your houseplants?
> Kind of a way to have one hobby help another.


Thats what my girlfriend and i do. I have a 55g bow, a 90g, and a 6ft high rack of plants all along the same wall. Went to home depot bought a 4ft shop light $17, 2 grow bulbs $8 each, wooden 2x4 utility shelfing unit $36. Shes happy now that she can take care of something and have a hobby. We have a bunch of vegetables, fruits, and herbs growing. We just use the fish water to water the plants, seems to work great.

Otherwise i have added Columbo, and Hornwort to my cichlid tanks, and they are growing like weeds. Have Water Hyacinth, Water lettuce as well in my grow out 55. Not sure how much nitrates it eliminates, but i have cut a little back on water changes. Which i like. Paid $5 for a huge bag of hornwort from the garden gallery. Filled my 2 tanks with multiple extra huge pieces. It was extremely compact bag about size of football. Got a lot. Looks great and the cichlids dont destroy it.

*** read up on aquaponics or aqua farming, and apparently its the way of the future. They use about 10% amount of water land farming uses as most of that is wasted. Also plants tend to grow twice as fast and twice as large in some cases from the use of fish water. The only plants that are tricky to set up are say ground growing vegetables, ie potatoes or carrots, as they need to grow in soil. Otherwise the fish living in a huge tank or pond get fed and then create nitrate, which runs through channels allowing the plants roots growing just above the water line to hang in the water. Plants use up all the nitrate and no filters are needed what so ever. Apparently all they use is a pump to push the water and add oxygen through these channels. And for the farmers who use fresh water fish that are used as food like trout, the fish can be harvested as well.


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## AlphaWild

One note about the houseplants...too much of a good thing can make plants put on alot of new green growth and not flower when they should (i.e., my christmas cactus). Aside from that, all my outdoor/indoor plants love the free fertilizer. I just need to "starve" certain ones for awhile if I want them to bloom.


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## cdavitt

OK. I have to give this a shot too. pothos ivy wall over my tanks would look awesome. let alone the reduced nitrates causing happier fish and happier owner (less water changes!).

My question is, where can I get the little plastic hanging/magnet/suction containers to put the plant root in? Can I get away with no gravel or substrate in this mini "planter"? I only ask because if it was filled with gravel and the suction cup gave out I would have a bunch of ugly dark gravel all over the PFS.

pm me links if needed.

Thanks


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## 69183

cdavitt said:


> OK. I have to give this a shot too. pothos ivy wall over my tanks would look awesome. let alone the reduced nitrates causing happier fish and happier owner (less water changes!).
> 
> My question is, where can I get the little plastic hanging/magnet/suction containers to put the plant root in? Can I get away with no gravel or substrate in this mini "planter"? I only ask because if it was filled with gravel and the suction cup gave out I would have a bunch of ugly dark gravel all over the PFS.
> 
> pm me links if needed.
> 
> Thanks


Can get some small bath caddies from your local discount store. That's what I used. They were about $3.00 there in the bath section. I've had them in the aquarium for about a month now filled with gravel and they haven't gave out yet.


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## cdavitt

Thanks. I will get to Walmart and Home Depot this weekend to give this a try. Does the ivy require the gravel? Or do you think it would be OK with just exposed roots in the water. Maybe rubber banded to the 'bath caddie"


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## 69183

cdavitt said:


> Thanks. I will get to Walmart and Home Depot this weekend to give this a try. Does the ivy require the gravel? Or do you think it would be OK with just exposed roots in the water. Maybe rubber banded to the 'bath caddie"


I don't know if the gravel is required.... It does keep the ivy in place though and I guess something for the roots to grab hold of. The gravel also helped blend it into the background. Caddy was clear so it probably would blend in anyway, but it hides the roots and you don't even really see it there unless you look behind the aquarium and see see the ivy sprouting out.


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## cdavitt

I have some black gravel so I guess I'll try both. Hiding it being the key.

Thanks


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## cdavitt

One last question. Will I need to add any CO2 or fertilizer to the water for the ivy? Or will water, nitrate, and sun light be enough?


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## Flippercon

Its been just over two months here a few more pics. 
























I did not plant them as you can see. This tank is in front of a 6' window so the plants get plenty of light. Doesn't look like they need to be planted. I guess its up to you. I like the look of it. My dojo loach loves hanging out in the stuff.


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## bernie comeau

FishFlake said:


> As a point of interest, here is a list of floating plants used in wastewater treatment plants in order of nutrient uptake from highest to lowest. All are available to us from aquarium plant suppliers.
> 
> 1) Water Hyacinth
> 2)Water Lettuce
> 3 Pennywort (Hydrocotlye sp)
> 4 Alligator weed (Alternathera sp)
> 5)Duckweed
> 6)Salvinia sp
> 
> I wonder where pothos and other house plants would fall on this list.


All the plants on this list are aqautic plants.

I really have my doubts that many, if any, terrestrial plants "filter" or "suck" nitrates out of water. I was always taught in crop science classes that terrestrial plants obtain N by mass flow. They transpire and take up water by the process of osmosis. Essentially they obtain N by drinking water, not by filtering it out of water.

My own experience with aquaponics definately suggests this. Grew some very large plants out of my trickle filter for a period of over 3 years. I noticed no affect on nitrate levels, what so ever. Sometimes I had high nitrates.....only water changes ever lowered nitrates. I used a 400 watt metal halide and 150 watt HPS, 18 hours a day and grew a humungus tomato plant. Even opened the window in the summer and let the plant grow outside, getting sunlight as well! It's a very fast growing high demand plant... I frequently trimmed the plant and hauled out vegetation to the compost pile by the 5 gallon pail full. It flowered, but never produced tomatoes (pH too high?, insuffecient P?) Grew this plant for about a year and a half and it developed a woody stem like a small tree. I learned one thing :lol: : some tomato plants are actually perrennials; there annuals because of are cold climate! Grew a few other plants after this one, including a hot bannnana pepper, though none nearly as large as this tomato plant.

Essentially it's a way of changing water as a terrestrial plant will use water....that's all. Does not filter N.

An algae scrubber is definately something I'm going to try out, someday. I think that has real potential to remove nutrients from an aqaurium!


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## SantaMonica

Yes, it can easily make nitrates = zero.


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## Fogelhund

I've got a friend that has many patents on waste water filtration, using wetlands to scrub the water. There is some real science to using not only algae, but plants that have their roots in the water, and leaves above water to help the water quality. I'm not the guy to explain it though. :lol:


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## prov356

> I really have my doubts that many, if any, terrestrial plants "filter" or "suck" nitrates out of water.


They actually prefer and take up ammonium first and will only go after nitrates once ammoniun is depleted. And terrestrial plants tend to do a better job at it. It has something to do with it being easier to take advantage of CO2 in the atmosphere as opposed to under water. See Diana Walstad's 'Ecology of the Planted Aquarium'. She even wonders in her book why we as aquarists tend to get all concerned about nitrates in freshwater tanks, as they're not toxic. I know it goes against all we're taught, and is just one person's ideas, but she has done a lot of work in this area. Just keep them low with water changes and enjoy your fish.



SantaMonica said:


> Yes, it can easily make nitrates = zero.


Why in a freshwater tank? I think we're putting too much effort into something that's just not needed. One of those interesting things to tinker with, but isn't really practical or worthwhile to implement whether it 'works' or not.


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## DJRansome

I have trouble with cyanobacteria when nitrates are zero in my planted tanks. When that happens, I need to add nitrates back IN.

About 10ppm is the lowest I want to go in a planted tank.


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## bernie comeau

Fogelhund said:


> There is some real science to using not only algae, but plants that have their roots in the water, and leaves above water to help the water quality.


Yes, when it comes to removing heavy metals from water, some terrestrial plants can be quite affective over a period of time. For the most part, it's certain cations that are attracted to the roots of some plants (not anions). Ions with a positive charge.

Basically, the amount of nitrate a terrestrial plant uses is dependant on the amount of water it uses. Putting roots of plants into an aqaurium or filter is just another way to do a little bit of water change. At one time, I looked at every academic experiment I could find on Aqauponics (it's not a big field of study, but there is some literature) and all that i could find where a significant reduction in nitrates was acheived had some seperation of the fish waste from the fish, to the plants(they let the plants use it and didn't return waste water).

Yes, i am well aware the plants and algae use ammonium and that many actually prefer it. Maybe some terrestrial plants can actually remove it from water (??). But again, I would really suspect that the amount most terrestrial plants use will be equivalent to it's water useage. Having a plant(s) transpire is not a very affective way to change water! To really be effective, your talking gallons a day. Makes more sense just to take the water out and water your garden, lawn or house plants with it ....not as effecient use of the water as hydroponics, but alot more gallons can be used up this way.


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## prov356

> Having a plant(s) transpire is not a very affective way to change water!


You don't immerse the plant, of course, just the roots.



> But again, I would really suspect that the amount most terrestrial plants use will be equivalent to it's water useage.


I think you should check out Walstad's book. She addresses all of this.


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## SantaMonica

If your water quality is being kept fine by photosynthesis (algae or plants), why would you want to continue to do water changes?


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## prov356

SantaMonica said:


> If your water quality is being kept fine by photosynthesis (algae or plants), why would you want to continue to do water changes?


You've got it backwards. If your water is being kept fine by water changes, (which are relatively cheap and easy to do) why do you want build the necessary infrastructure to deal with things via plants and/or algae scrubbers?

'Natural' tanks can be done, and they reduce or even eliminate the need for water changes, but there's more to it than adding plants to an aquarium. Again, see Walstad's book.


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## bernie comeau

prov356 said:


> SantaMonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, see Walstad's book.
Click to expand...

It's not a bible. I have personal exprience and acadmia since at least 4 yeaers ago, to know I am not talking BS.

A very simple experiment. 2 gal. of water from your tank. Take a NITRATE measurement. Split it in two. Two pales. One with your terresstrial plant of your choice (Pythos?). See in one week if the pale with the plant has lower nitrates then the pail with out. I'm willing to bet money there is no diferance.


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## prov356

> I have personal exprience and acadmia since at least 4 yeaers ago, to know I am not talking BS.


I know you have a lot of experience. I've followed your threads on other forums where you've been a strong advocate of these things. So much so that you went into the building and selling of them, yes? But, these have been reefer forums. The freshwater world is a different place. Water changes are cheaper and easier here than building or buying algae scrubbers. I don't think you'll find anything other than a niche following of people that like to tinker with equipment, but that's about it. Denitrators and the like just haven't caught on for freshwater and with good reason.


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## bernie comeau

prov356 said:


> I have personal exprience and acadmia since at least 4 yeaers ago, to know I am not talking BS.
> 
> 
> 
> I know you have a lot of experience. I've followed your threads on other forums where you've been a strong advocate of these things. So much so that you went into the building and selling of them, yes?
Click to expand...

That would be SantaMonica.

The quote is my statement. I'm questioning the claim that terrestrial plants will "suck' nitrates out of water rather then simply 'use' water. Not a controlled experiment, but my own experience with aquaponics suggests this. As well, the few academic papers I could find on aquaponics, and a number on plant nutrient uptake....I was quite interested in this area of study for a number of years. I guess i should try out my simple experiment (using Pothos?) and see again, for myself.


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## prov356

> It's not a bible. I have personal exprience and acadmia since at least 4 yeaers ago, to know I am not talking BS.


So, you thnk that plants don't take up nitrates from the water column because of a one week bucket test using hobbyist test kits? And you discredit Walstad's book and the information within it? Are you saying she's totally wrong? Or just to some degree, and how so? Have you even read the book?


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## SantaMonica

Of course plants take up nitrates. That's what plants do. Algae does too, of course, albeit faster if you have the place for it to grow and harvest.

FW waterchanges are indeed cheaper and easier, and if it does what you need then it's probably best. A common misconception though is that almost all scrubbers are SW; actually they are equally split between SW and FW.

As for scrubbers not catching on yet, it's because they are not for sale. Not in any real manner anyway. So it's DIY or nothing, and water changes might be easier than DIY. The typical person that goes into a pet store for FW stuff is never going to DIY one of these.


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## prov356

> Of course plants take up nitrates. That's what plants do. Algae does too, of course, albeit faster if you have the place for it to grow and harvest.


That's too much of an over-generalization. There are many different types of plants and alga that have differring preferences and abilities.



> As for scrubbers not catching on yet, it's because they are not for sale. Not in any real manner anyway.


Again, I think you have it backwards. They're not for sale because there's no demand. I can't imagine any freshwater shops having any interest in carrying these. Have you tried to market yours?


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## Number6

Many species of fresh water algae cannot use nitrate. Makes an algae scrubber a bit useless for nitrate removal.

I used to use an algae scrubber on both a freshwater and salt water tank. I quit for both... 1. The smell of the algae was revolting. Like walking along the shore of lake ontario
2. It actually harms coral growth as algae can give off substances known to impede coral growth.

I might use one again for freshwater, if I could correct the smell issue as it does remove ammonia.


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## prov356

> 2. It actually harms coral growth as algae can give off substances known to impede coral growth.


Brings up a good point. Some algae gives of allelochemicals that inhibit plant growth as well.


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## SantaMonica

Well fortunately we have real world results, along with biology studies, to show the opposite.



> There are many different types of plants and alga that have differring preferences and abilities.


Yes, and the algae that consume the nutrients that are currently available, are the algae that grow.



> They're not for sale because there's no demand.


I wish you knew the demand. No need to tout it here, but since I work with this everyday, I can say for certain that there is a demand.



> I can't imagine any freshwater shops having any interest in carrying these.


There isn't anything yet for them to carry. They are not going to carry DIY.



> Have you tried to market yours?


No. I just sell the full size hand built acrylic unit to folks who seek it out. The marketing won't start until the FW/nano friendly version come out next year.



> Many species of fresh water algae cannot use nitrate. Makes an algae scrubber a bit useless for nitrate removal.


All algae can use nitrate as a source for their nitrogen, if they cannot get the nitrogen from ammonia/ammonium or nitrite. However since tanks are not mono-cultures, other strains of algae which can take up nitrate faster (if in fact nitrate is the dominant nitrogen source) will outcompete.



> The smell of the algae was revolting.


You had too little flow. Scrubbers with proper flow smell like... water... because it's covered in water.



> It actually harms coral growth as algae can give off substances known to impede coral growth.


It actually helps coral growth, because it remove the things which impede coral growth. More importantly, algae exudate provide the very material that corals live on; this includes all the vitamins and amino acids in the ocean that corals need to grow. These are the same vitamins and amino acids that reefers buy and dose to their tanks. This is how the vitamins and amino acids got in the ocean in the first place. Algae also produce a carbon source to feed the nitrate-and-phosphate-reducing bacteria (in addition to the algae consuming nitrate and phosphate itself). This is the same carbon that many aquarists buy and add to their tanks. In particular, algae produce these vitamins: Vitamin A, Vitamin E, Vitamin B6, Beta Carotene, Riboflavin, Thiamine, Biotin, Ascorbate (breaks chloramines into chlorine+ammonia), N5-Methyltetrahydrofolate, Other tetrahydrofolate polyglutamates, Oxidized folate monoglutamates, Nicotinate, Pantothenate; These amino acids: Alanine, Aspartic acid, Leucine, Valine, Tyrosine, Phenylalanine, Methionine, Aspartate, Glutamate, Serine, Proline; These Carbohydrates (sugars): Galactose, Glucose, Maltose, Xylose; These miscellaneous: Glycolic Acid, Citric Acid (breaks chloramines into chlorine+ammonia), Nucleic Acid derivatives, Polypeptides, Proteins, Enzymes, Lipids. You can review the the Journal of Phycology for more.


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## prov356

Ok, well good luck to you in your ventures then. But, I just don't envision freshwater folks lining up for these things.


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## Number6

*SantaMonica*
I took down my salt water algae scrubber a mere 3 weeks ago. I had it for two years. Algae that feed coral grow inside the coral. Algae that grows on the scrubber harm corals and this has been found in the ocean as well as in captive systems. Learn the facts before posting else your lengthy replies about the wrong species of algae weaken your position. As for the odor, all the algae scrubber enthusiasts repeatedly tell me that it was a sign of a healthy scrubber. I had one issue and the advice was to get a smaller pump so interesting that my pump was both too powerful and yet knot powerful enough.

And no... algae scrubbers don't use nitrates up. They use ammonia. Algae scrubber enthusiasts say that ann algae scrubber can be used on planted tanks without harm as the plants can break down nitrates where as the algae cannot. So algae uses up fish wastes and the owner can dose nitrates.

It feels strange that I have to use the opinions of other algae scrubber enthusiasts to counteract the dubious claims of another...


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