# Fry in the big tank -- the pile of rocks approach



## Dave27 (Dec 22, 2008)

I would like to hear from anyone who has taken the approach of providing some good hiding places for the fry in the main tank as an alternative to having one or more grow out tanks.

I am 10 days into trying a pile of crushed stone (limestone driveway stones--about 5/8 to 1" size) placed in the dead center of the tank, tossed on some larger stones to form a pyramid about 7" tall. The little fry can swim right through and the bigger fish cannot. I toss in some fry food and use some flake that breaks up easily...the particles float and the little guys either wait for it or dart out, snag the food, and race for cover. Wtih a 150 gal tank, the extra load of the fry food several times a day poses no water quality problems as it would in a 10 gal tank so my maintanence is a weekly 25% change. I just added a second rock pile in the corner and have already observed a fry has shown up. Curious to see if the holding females will spit their fry into these areas of cover or not. I think that happened which is why I added the second pile. Some of the bigger fry seem to explore a bit but don't go all that far. I have noted that some fry escape from their mothers mouths and seem to get stuck hiding where ever that happens, under the nearest rock, next to the sponge filter base, etc. I have been watching closely and while there have been some close calls, none of the fry that make it to the hiding places have been eaten while I was watching. They seem to be hardwired to stay hidden.

I would like to hear what others have done. My tank is all Mbuna so that may help. Let me hear about your experience with little fry in the big tank. Have they grown to adulthood?

For those who use the grow out tank approach, how do you catch the holding female in a fully decorated tank? Do you isolate them as soon as they are holding and then strip based on how long you think they have been holding? Do you wait for a fry to escape the mother's mouth as proof that most are already hatched? Is the grow out tank a bare tank or does it have lots of hiding spots? Love to hear your approaches.


----------



## cevvin (May 2, 2008)

Dave27 said:


> For those who use the grow out tank approach, how do you catch the holding female in a fully decorated tank? Do you isolate them as soon as they are holding and then strip based on how long you think they have been holding? Do you wait for a fry to escape the mother's mouth as proof that most are already hatched? Is the grow out tank a bare tank or does it have lots of hiding spots? Love to hear your approaches.


I take advantage of my females holding. I completely clean the tank when I need to take a female out. Then I use a piece of spare plexi to isolate her from the rest and then slowly net her. I did a test to see how a holding mom would do in different circumstances. I used the same female and took her out on the same day she started holding, that brood was 30. Next time I left her in the tank with food temptation and stress from other fish and that brood was 21. The first grow out tank is just and empty 10g. They don't need anything and its MUCH easier to clean. And I strip my females on day 18.


----------



## khaki (Jan 12, 2008)

I take everything out. I take out all the rocks and then net the female.


----------



## 748johnd (Jun 30, 2007)

I made a pile of smooth roundish stones that I took from my landscaping and sometimes see fry among them. However, I have never seen a female spit fry into the pile. I don't really want too many fry because the tank is becoming overstocked. Also, I don't want to remove rocks to catch holding females. I prefer to let nature take its course.


----------



## hollyfish2000 (Aug 23, 2007)

I have an all male peacock/hap tank with a trio of labs. One lab has held twice. I built a small fry pile of very small, smooth river rock and, yes, as far as I could tell the mama lab spit into the pile. I did raise two fry to adulthood. Probably not great odds, but I wasn't really trying. I did find that at one point my pile had a bit of a hidden access point, so I had to do some rebuilding mid-way. I should also mention I have syno's and two still grew up!


----------



## Super Turtleman (May 21, 2007)

I have 2 fry piles made out of smooth 1" to 2" river rocks. I've never seen a fish spit into them, but fry have survived in those piles to adulthood. I have about 4 dems in my tank right now that were spit in it and an acei is growing out as well.

Most of the time I remove holding moms and have several tanks setup for growing out fry. However, it does require me to take out every piece of rock in the tank, so a good cleaning/water change usually goes along with it.


----------



## gmoney88 (Oct 25, 2005)

Interesting, I was always afraid of taking out rocks and trying to net a holding female. I figured the stress would cause her to spit the eggs. Good thread :thumb:


----------



## mstatdfield (Jan 20, 2008)

My method is very similar to cevvin's. Except I just go straight for them with the net. I only have a 75g so there isn't much place they can go. I do usually wait until the fry are free swimming (ie its been 3-4 weeks since she started holding and I can see the little guys looking out at me). I then just strip them put them into a grow out tank and put the mom back in the main tank. I have tried the piled rocks approach. Like you said they seem to stick around where they got spit out. Only a few make it to the rock pile and then my synos have always been able to get into the cracks and get at them. I think it is doable if you don't have synos, but you will have a significantly lower success rate with the rock pile method (only a few lucky ones will make it there).


----------



## elgu3ro88 (Dec 16, 2008)

my maingano spit 12 fry and i put them all in the main tank. problem was that none of them were able to find hiding spots and were all eatin before they found my fry rock pile...


----------



## Dave27 (Dec 22, 2008)

Thanks for some excellent feedback. I have a lot of rocks so it looks like I will need a big plastic sheet or clean poly garbage cans to put them on during the catching of the females! It is an excellent idea to do a complete tank breakdown and gravel clean. Do you take care to keep the rocks from drying out so it stays as an active bio media and algae source? I am envisioning a divide and conquer approach with two pieces of plexi so I can isolate the fish of interest while allowing the others to go to the other end of the tank.

Also, my fish seem to remember their territories and dig holes in the same places unless I thwart them by eliminating some rock stucture that they were using. I have found that reorganization of the tank promotes a restructuring of the higherarchy of the tank. Once the tank settles into a new higherarchy, everybody calms down but I have noted it is harder to clean the tank without the complete removal of at least half to 1/3 of the rocks.

What do you do with the fish that you take out of the tank on day one? Do you have a fry tank or a separate "maternity" tank?


----------



## cevvin (May 2, 2008)

My mommy moves to a 10g bare tank... but I have no idea how big your fish are. And then after I strip on day 18 I leave the mom in that tank and put the babies in a breeder basket for a few days while the mom eats and gains some weight and strength before I put her back in the tank with my dom male. Then after a few days and mom is gone, the babies go in the 10g with filter floss over the filter intake. Then when they get about 3/4 inch we have a 60tall bare that they go in for another half inch.

And I put my rocks in a $10 tote from walmart. They really aren't out of the water long enough to get dry.


----------



## Dave27 (Dec 22, 2008)

Thanks, cevvin. I have the items you mention from my swordtail days. My fish are having their first broods. The female labs are about 2.25" with a 3" male and the female Kenyi are 2.5 with a 2.75" male.

What kind of water change schedule do you have with the 10 gal? Do you use water out of the tap or do you doctor it with the reef mix described here on the website? I am concerned about having a GH /pH shock unless I down cycle the water from the main tank into the 10 gallon, which seems the way to set up the 10 gal tank initially....ie same water for the mommy--bring a running sponge filter from the main tank so the 10 gallon is instantly cycled.

We have an empty 55. It is a pain to deal with a fully decorated tank but bare might be much easier to assure myself a source of nice stock.

Do you mix types in the grow out tanks? Do you have more than one 10 gallon to handle multiple moms.


----------



## cevvin (May 2, 2008)

I have really bad well water here, so I have to get my water from my in-laws. I do a 1/2 gallon change a day on the 10g (others suggest 50%, but as long as you keep the water prestine I dont see a need for that). Just keep the nitrates down as low as possible as fry are much more sensitive to tank conditions. And if you water in your tank is much different from your tap I would do what you said. Start with all tank water, then do water changes as to not shock the mom. And as long as you can tell the difference between a couple different species of fry I see no harm in housing them together, thats what I do with my kenyi/labs. I have the ability to have more than 1 10g. My daughters both have 10g and I can always combine them (just guppies and mollies) if I need to. I haven't had the need to yet. I just usually move fry from the 10g to the 60tal when I get a new mommy.


----------



## zcfish (Jan 31, 2009)

cevvin said:


> I have really bad well water here, so I have to get my water from my in-laws.


really? how does that work? you have an extra long hose? :roll:  :thumb:


----------



## Lostlilkidd (Jan 27, 2009)

good thread!
:thumb:


----------



## Super Turtleman (May 21, 2007)

My methods are slightly different. I have four 10G tanks and 4 breeder nets (cheap Wal-Mart ones). I put the holding mom in a breeder net until she's ready to spit. Then I strip her and release the fry into the tank. I sometimes let the mom recover a day or two (depends on how I feel she is doing) and then put her back in the main tank. Using this method, I can have 3 or 4 moms in one 10G tank plus fry in the tank as well.

Of course, I have mbuna, so their size work in the breeder nets. Some of the bigger cichlids won't work out that way. This way has worked quite well for me. I currently have 3 of the 4 tanks housing fry and holding moms.

:fish:


----------



## cevvin (May 2, 2008)

zcfish said:


> cevvin said:
> 
> 
> > I have really bad well water here, so I have to get my water from my in-laws.
> ...


Lol no, they live just across the field about 100 yards.. so we just have 4 one gallon jugs, we go every other day.


----------



## mikesl (Nov 12, 2003)

I am a big fan of this approach.

I have been running a 75G mbuna tank for about 6 years like this, and I like it a lot.

Stock list is:
Ps. Demasoni (usually 3m, 3f and a bunch of subadults and fry totalling ~20 fish)
Yellow labs (1 dom male and 2-3 femals and subadults and fry totalling about 9) - this population is the least dominant in the tank probably, and predation on yellow lab fry is greater.
Ps sp. "lime mbenji" 1 dom male, 2 fem, 5 fry
lab. sp. Hongi 1 adult male

I have almost the entire bottom covered with various sizes of rocks, and fry tend to hang out among the small rocks right up against the front glass, making for amusing viewing.

The fish breed often, and the population grows slowly over time, though I don't thin the ranks (i.e. by taking in to LFS or fish club auction) as much anymore, due to lack of time.

I like the population dynamics I get this way with the demasoni... with males of various ages growing up together, it is usually clear what the pecking order is, and bloodbaths are rare.

Over the long term, you tend to view the fish as a "colony" and think of the collective health and status of the colony (I am probably in my 5th generation of demaosni, maybe more)

The yellow labs take the brunt of the physical abuse in this tank, not sure why, probably just not "real mbuna".

It's remarkable how brave and cute baby demasoni fry are, and probably due to their dark coloration, or maybe just their smarts, they have a decent survival rate. I estimate that from each spawn, I get 3-4 fish surviving. Usually you only ever see 5-7 in the first days, then a few get lost, and the rest tend to make it.

ah, and food is just NLS and flake, fed sparingly. I think if you spoil your fish with overfeeding you will probably run into more population control problems 

happy fishing


----------



## marsbennett (Nov 11, 2008)

First, I built this.










Over a 3 month period, 2 Acei's spit 5 or 6 broods in the rocks. The Yellow labs spit one brood. I delivered food via syringe to the fry dome and feed them well. I thought the fry looked very healthy. The population exploded. By the end of the third month, stress due to overpopulation took it's toll and bloat hit the Yellow lab colony. I found several tanks for sale cheap on craigslist and got a 30 g and 2 more 55 gs. I separated 4 thaiwan reef into 1 tank, 8 Labs in another, and the Acei's stayed in the 3rd 55 gallon. When I finally dismantled the fry dome I had 8 Yellow Labs and only 12 Acei's out of all those broods...mostly older Acei.

What I learned is that no matter how hard I worked at keeping food around and keeping the water clean, the older fry made survival of the new broods extremely low. Stress, however, was the biggest problem. The early batches of fry did flourish fairly darn well, but the tank could not maintain a manageable stress level for adult yellow labs in particular.

If you are raising fry, you'll need a tank for holding mothers. If you just want to increase the odds for your fry, the rock pile is sufficient for the first couple of broods. Don't forget, cleaning is more time consuming with rock piles (although not that bad, imo) and stress will become an issue as the surviving fry join the colony.


----------



## Dave27 (Dec 22, 2008)

The plexiglass worked great! I dropped the level 20%, moved a couple rocks, then urged the holding lab to the right of the tank and inserted the plexi between two rocks, adjusting to miniize the swim by areas next to the glass. Then, I put another plexi to isolate the fry pile. Then I removed all the big rocks on the righ side of the tank to find 2 other hiding fish with the mom. The mom was inside a piece of coral so I had to turn it over and pour her out. Used a wooden stick to encourage the other fish against the plexi which I had moved to create a V, looking from the top, and they followed it to the edge and scooted into the next corral, near the fry pile. I did the same with the next plexi so that all the big fish in the tank were in the left 1/3 of the tank with lots of rocks to hide in. The fry pile was in the middle, and the holding female on the now bare right side of the tank. I netted her easily to a 10 gallong tank. Then, I removed the fry pile rocks and used the wooden stick (with a blunt plastic scraper on the end) to encourage the fry to the empty right hand side. Boy are they fast. The little 2x3" net did nothing. Switched to the 6X8" fine mesh net and realize it would be one at a time. Put them in a second 10 gal. The really teany fry managed to hide in the bare gravel and after a half hour of looking, waiting, flashlight, I vacuumed the now bare right and center of the tank, giving up on the last one that I could not find. That took me to a 30% water change so I put everything back in a completely different set up. I put most of the rocks back in before releasing the fish from the left so I had no worries about fish when I was rearranging. There was a little fighting when they were crowded together...one demansoni got a caudal fin nip and one p. zebra cobalt cobalt got a dorsal fin nip. When I counted, I had 12 Labs and 5 kenyi fry in various sizes.
I had a small power filter but that made them swim too hard so I switched to a bubble filter. I fed some ground up cichlid flake and they seemed to take it, although only the big pieces. I can see this will be a challenge to keep the bottom clean. I'll see how much water comes out with a vacuum of the bare bottom and if I can keep it under a gallon , that will be how much I add each day.

Now I need some advice on how to strip fry and when. I am waiting for the "I can see them looking at me" for this female because I don't know when she started. I have seen a video showing holding the fish with a prewetted hand and forcing the mouth open. I have also read about using a turkey baster. Any advice on the particulars of identifying when to strip and the details of specifically what to do.


----------



## Dave27 (Dec 22, 2008)

The plexiglass worked great! I dropped the level 20%, moved a couple rocks, then urged the holding lab to the right of the tank and inserted the plexi between two rocks, adjusting to miniize the swim by areas next to the glass. Then, I put another plexi to isolate the fry pile. Then I removed all the big rocks on the righ side of the tank to find 2 other hiding fish with the mom. The mom was inside a piece of coral so I had to turn it over and pour her out. Used a wooden stick to encourage the other fish against the plexi which I had moved to create a V, looking from the top, and they followed it to the edge and scooted into the next corral, near the fry pile. I did the same with the next plexi so that all the big fish in the tank were in the left 1/3 of the tank with lots of rocks to hide in. The fry pile was in the middle, and the holding female on the now bare right side of the tank. I netted her easily to a 10 gallong tank. Then, I removed the fry pile rocks and used the wooden stick (with a blunt plastic scraper on the end) to encourage the fry to the empty right hand side. Boy are they fast. The little 2x3" net did nothing. Switched to the 6X8" fine mesh net and realize it would be one at a time. Put them in a second 10 gal. The really teany fry managed to hide in the bare gravel and after a half hour of looking, waiting, flashlight, I vacuumed the now bare right and center of the tank, giving up on the last one that I could not find. That took me to a 30% water change so I put everything back in a completely different set up. I put most of the rocks back in before releasing the fish from the left so I had no worries about fish when I was rearranging. There was a little fighting when they were crowded together...one demansoni got a caudal fin nip and one p. zebra cobalt cobalt got a dorsal fin nip. When I counted, I had 12 Labs and 5 kenyi fry in various sizes.
I had a small power filter but that made them swim too hard so I switched to a bubble filter. I fed some ground up cichlid flake and they seemed to take it, although only the big pieces. I can see this will be a challenge to keep the bottom clean. I'll see how much water comes out with a vacuum of the bare bottom and if I can keep it under a gallon , that will be how much I add each day.

Now I need some advice on how to strip fry and when. I am waiting for the "I can see them looking at me" for this female because I don't know when she started. I have seen a video showing holding the fish with a prewetted hand and forcing the mouth open. I have also read about using a turkey baster. Any advice on the particulars of identifying when to strip and the details of specifically what to do.


----------



## Super Turtleman (May 21, 2007)

I use the first stripping method (hold in wet hand, open mouth, etc). I've never used the turkey baster method but I hear it works. I will try it sometime though...


----------

