# Another cycling question



## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Sorry guys, My SW tanks cycled in a few days all the time using live rock, guess it was to easy and to fast , spoiled me, lol

I started my 150G cycle on 12/13 , which is 2-1/2 weeks as of today

I dosed ammonia to 4.00ppm and water temps are 85 degrees

It took 8 days to reach 0 ammonia. I waited 24 hours, and dosed again to 4.00 ppm on 12/23

On 12/27 The reading went from 4.00ppm ammonia to 1.00ppm ammonia. Still no Nitrite readings as of yet ( here I did a 25% water change to bring in Nutrients again )

On 12/27, I read and read over the weekend, and everyone suggested don't let the ammonia go below 1.00ppm, to keep the bacteria alive and fed. So on 12/27 I dosed ammonia to 4.00ppm from a 1.00ppm reading

2 days later same time, ammonia is 2.00ppm , still no nitrite readings

Were leaving Thursday afternoon with our camper till Sunday afternoon, so I'll dose ammonia Thursday before we leave to 4.00ppm , and when I return Sunday, I'll check ammonia and Nitrites

Question is, this week, Sunday will be 3 weeks into the cycle. I still have no Nitrite readings yet?

And why isn't the ammonia being broken down within 24 hours at this point ?

I don't read over the weekend, some poople never see ammonia drop below 1.00ppm through the cycle, till the very end

Thoughts?


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

12/30 ammonia down to 1.00ppm, water temp 85

Dosed ammonia back to 4.00ppm since we are leaving tomorrow and coming home Sunday

Nitrite reading still 0

took first Nitrate reading to see if I missed the Nitrite Spike, and 0 Nitrates on 12/30/15


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

I think there's something wrong with your test kit. If you have nitrifying bacteria working on your ammonia you have to have a nitrite reading.

How are you testing (what kind of kit) and how old is it?

I'm curious where you've read that you should not let ammonia drop below 1ppm during cycling. I've cycled lots of tanks and always let my ammonia drop to 0, sometimes for days at a time.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

I did a ton of reading online this past weekend, and even watched You Tube videos, and they all said don't let the ammonia reach 0 . Only place I could find that said that was here, so I thought ok let me try letting the ammonia only get to 1.00ppm

I have 2 API test kits I just bought within the past 2 months. I just tested with the new kit that just arrived last week, the other kits was 2 months old, and I have the same readings. The both expire 2020

I can't understand how the ammonia level is dropping from 4.00ppm to 1.00ppm or even less if I let it, but not converting to Nitrites. I read sometimes the nitrite can happen so fast you can miss the spike, and check for Nitrates to show if this happens. So today I tested Ammonia , Nitrite, Nitrate . Both Nitrite and Nitrate are 0 ?

Even if I dose ammonia at the first time I let it goto 0, then .50ppm, this week was the first time I dosed at 1ppm. So even if I didn't let it get to 0, the only side effects from dosing at 1.00ppm I would think would be at the end, I could have to much ammonia to break down, and kill the bacteria because of the high levels of ammonia, ( going over 5.00ppm )

Here's a pic , I added ammonia 2 hours ago back to 4.00ppm, so it's showing up here, with 0 Nitrites


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

I'd be curious to see the links recommending that you don't let ammonia drop below 1.00ppm. I have not heard that before and it's never made a difference with any of the tanks I've cycled. I'm cycling one at the moment and since the ammonia dropped to 0, I dose only every few days.

Did you use any biomedia from an established tank when starting this cycle?

When errors occur with testing they are usually related to nitrates. Are you certain you're following the instructions on nitrate testing to the letter (including all the vigorous shaking)?


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Thanks for the quick reply. Yes, I follow it to the T when testing. I only tested for Nitrates once, to see if I missed the Nitrite Step. As you can see above, I still have NO Nitrite reading, so the ammonia is not being converted to Nitrites yet.

Here's one article I read, it states don't let the ammonia reach 0. I usually dose when ammonia reaches 0.50ppm which is under 1.00ppm. The first 8 days I let the ammonia reach 0. I only changed this the last 2 doses of ammonia : http://www.aquariumadvice.com/tips-and- ... ess-cycle/

Here's another article they say don't let ammonia reach 0, the bacteria will starve:

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f1 ... 48283.html

No, I don't have another tank to seed the tank with. I'm using Ace ammonia to dose ammonia

This Sunday will make 3 weeks since I started the cycle, I should have Nitrites off the chart now for the past week , or at least some Nitrite readings


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

Thanks for those links. Some of the information there is very different from what I've read elsewhere.

I'm a bit stumped about your cycle. I've usually been done cycling at around the 20-25 day mark. Would you be able to take some water from the tank into an LFS to get them to test it? They'll usually do it free of charge. It would tell us if something is wrong with your test kit.

One other question: do you have plants in the tank?


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

No plants. I have 2 test kits both brand new
Ammonia is reading fine
Nitrite you only shake the bottle for 5 sec and add 5 drops, wait 5 min 
It's pretty easy to test
Nitrate is the one that has all the mixing involved

I'm at 18 days and no signs of nitrites yet, but ammonia still takes several days to goto 1ppm or 0
It's not converting within 24 hours yet


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Maybe I don't have enough oxygen in the tank? Water temp is 84

I have 2 x Fuval FX6 , one side of each output is pointing at the surface to agitate the surface. Maybe I need a air stone or something?


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

The nitrite test is pretty foolproof but your results don't seem to make sense.

Everything I've read about fishless cycling cautions against doing big water changes. Those links you provided recommend doing a few. It's possible that has set you back. To me they are unnecessary unless you have really high nitrites.

My recommendation would be to just keep dosing with ammonia. Once you can convert the dose to 0 ammonia in 24 hours, let's see what your nitrite and nitrate readings are.

You could increase oxygen but I doubt that's the problem. It sounds like you have the filter outputs set up well.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

I haven't done any large water changes, only one last weekend at 25% because I thought I had to once the ammonia reached 0 the first time

I'm at the LFS store , they just confirmed the same readings with a different testing kit, I'm leaving their store now. They wanted to sell me some bacteria in a bottle, I said no, not interested at this point in that

The last tank did the same thing, my 90G I stated to cycle. It never showed Nitrites either

From what I read online, some people don't even see a nitrite spike, and only see a Nitrate spike

Here's a few videos I watched also, they all state add ammonia at 1.00ppm ?






Were leaving this afternoon till Sunday with our camper , Sunday, I'll see if the ammonia hits 0 , ann redoes only to 2.00ppm and see how long it takes to go from 2.00pmm to 0


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## tanker3 (May 18, 2015)

Wait till Sunday, but you test does not make ssense. What kind of ammonia are you using? And yes, it does not matter if ammonia goes to zero, that is what you want. Just do not leave at zero for like a week, then the bacteria would start to starve.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Thanks for the reply

I'm using 
-Ace brand Janitorial Strength Ammonia (most commonly used, from Ace Hardware obviously)

I'll


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Man....you seem to have your biggest challenge just getting through the cycle. Let the ammonia drop to zero...you are not leaving it at zero for more than a day or two...this is fine. Something seems off to not register any nitrite.

I would take a water sample from your tank....and your tap....to a LFS and just have them double check. More eyes on the situation couldn't hurt. Then ask them for some established media, like some substrate or used filter media from one of their tanks. Keep it wet and place it under each of your filter intakes. This will get you going sooooooo much quicker!

If they won't help you out....take a day trip down south here and I will give you some established media to get you going. It'll take you a day driving down here and back but you'll save a couple of weeks cycling the tank.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Thanks I appreciate that !
Yes, it's bothering me so much, that im.going to leave the campground today, and make a 2 hour round trip back to the house to check everything. I can't wait till Sunday. I forgot to check it yesterday, so checking it today will give me a idea how much the ammonia dropped also since Wednesday


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Thinking a little deeper.....when you decided to start over a month or so ago from the 90 gallon tank....how did you store all of the substrate and ornaments as well as the filters? I'm thinking maybe you have gone right through the nitrite phase of the cycle by having a kickstart from the filter media or substrate.

But you will have nitrate in the tank. So this is where you should test. Make sure and follow the instructions to the "T"....shake it really fast for the steps in this process! Outside of this possible scenario, I would take a closer look at your water parameters straight out of your tap that your adding directly to your tank.

Another thing....why is your water so cloudy?? Mine never got cloudy or milky at any step of the process. I rinsed all of my substrate and rocks really, really well. For a few days on the Rock and running water in 5 gallon buckets through the substrate for a couple of hours then soaked it overnight and rinsed some more. Is the cloudiness maybe from your background?


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Another thing....drop the temperature down to 82 degrees. You don't need it that warm and will take longer for it to drop down to 78 degrees when you want to add your fish.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

I did do a Nitrate test and it was 0, which I was surprised. I thought for sure I missed the nitrite step, and I'd have nitrates by now showing up. Sunday will be 3 weeks . I should have one or the other by now for sure. I'm going to call the LFS and see if I can get some media Sunday, I'll take a trip down their, and re test the water with them

I thought the cloudiness was from the cycle. It's still really cloudy. Your right , I didn't think about the substrate being used from my 90G again, and the 90G was cycling for a few weeks. I stored the substrate with the tank water from the 90G in 
5x 5 gallon buckets it took. I only added 2 more bags I think, maybe 3 at the most of the new sand.

The 90G had a sump with bio speres also, bio balls etc. I also stored them in the tank water, and put them into the new FX6 filters.

I think the bacteria was to fragil only being a few weeks old to cling to the bio speres yet, but living in the sand, I could see tons of bacteria still possibly growing in the sand

The rock wall I power washed and cleaned. Theirs no way 3 weeks later the rock wall is keeping it cloudy. My 90G water was crystal clear by the next day

So that leaves me to believe possibly the only thing left for the cloudiness water is:

From the cycle, and maybe the cycle stalled? I don't think it's stalled, but still not sure why if I'm breaking down ammonia, I have no Nitrite reading

The cloudy water is from the lace rocks. This could be very possible . I power washed them and boiled them. But did not use any bleach on them

Wife said no way am I spending the who,e day running back and forth to the house today, and bringing the water to the LFS today

It would take a few hours at least, we have friends coming over to the campground in a few hours


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Enjoy your weekend with your family! That's more important today....you don't have any fish that your worried about or anything like that.

Your wife has been through A LOT in the past couple of months with all the tank changes!! She's been a real trooper to put up with it....don't rock the boat now, lol.

You can do all of this when you get back tomorrow or the next day. I didn't bleach my rocks either, yust rinsed and rinsed then soaked overnight then rinsed again. You sound like you cleaned them well, it's likely from the substrate. It took me forever to rinse six 20 lb bags of the African Cichlids Mix that I used. When I do water changes once a week I vacuum the substrate every other time and I can see the cloudiness that it removes. But you DO NOT want to vacuum your substrate when trying to get your tank established. Your bacteria colony is very delicate for a few months, especially while cycling.

I'm thinking that you have already passed the nitrite step in the cycle and you just need to focus on your nitrate. You HAVE to have some nitrate in the tank! Your ammonia levels are lagging in 24 hours probably because you are dosing pretty high and you aren't letting it fully drop to zero before dosing again. Your just building up the ammonia, the other steps just need some more time to catch up. Just be careful not to dose too high and damage your bacteria colonies therefore stalling the process again. Taking another day off right now is not going to hurt a thing....maybe it will even help the process by keeping YOU away from changing anything at this point, lol.

Enjoy your weekend with your family! They all have to put up with you and the fish when they get back home!


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

LOL, Happy New Year BTW !

Yeh it will be a good idea to leave it till Sunday.
We'll be home Sunday around noon, and I'll bring the water down Sunday afternoon to the LFS

I'm thinking/hoping I see Nitrate readings Sunday
If so, I'll start some water changes
If not, and 3 weeks later I only have ammonia reading, not sure then
By Sunday I should be at 0 ammonia

I'm only going to dose to 2-3ppm ammonia next time


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

I'm online trying to deceide a stocking list. I found Cyrtocara Moorii (Blue Dolphin)

It's says these can be mixed with P&H or Mbuna

I was thinking just one of these?


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

I've no experience with Blue Dolphins, I just know they get big.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Yeh I would like a show pc, something that gets around 8" , but can't find allot on them


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## aaron1129 (Dec 29, 2015)

I have had success with stability from seachem with doing a fishless cycle, might be worth a try if you are still having problems. Also I keep moorii, they are a very cool fish. Some can be aggressive, most seem to be pretty peaceful. They can get pretty big, but it takes a few years.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Are they a Mbuna or P&H ?

I been reading and watching videos all weekend, and confused again on all male P&H tank or Mbuna tank.

Every time I see a P&H tank, ( mostly Haps ) I love them and their colors

I also like their sizes, in a 150G that's 28" tall, I would like a few larger fish


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

PS we'll be back from the campground by noon Sunday. I'm heading straight to the LFS. Theirs no way I can be going 3 weeks and breaking down ammonia and have no nitrite or Nitrate reading. I'm going to test myself, post results tomorrow, and post from the LFS .

If I have 0 ammonia tomorrow and no nitrite or Nitrate tomorrow, I'm going to buy Dr Tims one and only and move on

Tomorrow make 3 weeks of breaking down ammonia, it has to be converting to something


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Before testing for anything, clean or rinse your test tubes really good to make sure you are working from a clean slate.

Test first for ammonia...should be zero by now,

Then test for nitrite...if zero I suspect your media was somewhat established and have completed the nitrite cycle,

Finally test for nitrate...all of the ammonia-nitrite eventually is converted to nitrate so this is a given, if you're still measuring no nitrates something's wrong with the testing process. If this is the case, then take a clean water sample to your LFS to confirm the test results. I would think you should have a nitrate level 20 ppm or above easily by now, if this is the case start doing small partial water changes to get the nitrate level below 20. Continue dosing with ammonia to 2 ppm every third day until you order your fish...wait 48 hours after the last ammonia dose then you can add your fish.

Maybe you have a beneficial bacteria black hole??? Lol.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

LOL, thanks for the help! I don't drink, but I'm ready to, lol
How can 2 tanks have the same cycling issues

I been reading online all weekend where people say after 3 weeks still no Nitrite readings. It seems this part sometimes gets missed, but then I should, have a Nitrate reading, something. I think your spot on, I'm hoping to have a 20ppm nitrate reading tomorrow. If not, I'll be highly disappointed


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## aaron1129 (Dec 29, 2015)

I just googled ammonia dissociation in water. I'm not a chemist, but it may be possible that the ammonia is just changing a little bit chemically over the 8 day period, and you can can not detect it with your test kit any more. That would explain that lack of nitrites. This situation would likely mean that nitrifying bacteria is not present in your system yet. Just a possibility.

I second the idea of getting some used filter media from the LFS. If they don't want to provide you, just buy a bottle of tank starter, it's fairly cheap.

Moorii are classified as a Hap in the species form on this site, there genus is Cyrtocara. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/c_moorii.php


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Thanks for the help. I think the cycle is stalled after 3 weeks, and I have no Nitrifying bacteria as you mentioned.

Here's the results as of today, and you can compare the ammonia from below, at 12/31. I haven't added ammonia since Tuesday. 6 days later, I still have over 2.00ppm ammonia ? No Nitrite reading today, No Nitrate reading today



Here's the test results from 12/31 , they look the same, ammonia is barley going down or the same reading since Tuesday, NO Nitrite reading



I'm headed to the LFS with the water sample, and see if I can get some bacteria from their tanks to seed the tank

The water is still REALLY cloudy, I'm thinking of breaking down the tank, re-washing the sand. It has to be from the sand sitting in the buckets from my 90G tank for a few weeks?


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Do not break down the tank or mess with the sand, everything will sort itself out by the time you finish cycling.

My experience with the fish less cycle process using ammonia is very similar to yours. Patience is the key. 6 weeks is the average total time from my experience. The ammonia cycle took the longest, 5 weeks I think though my memory is bad.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Thanks he just gave me two bags full of media huge bags from their store I'm on my way home now he said to put it in my filters he suggested just doing a 50% water change the loading ammonia a little bit what do you think


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

I forgot to mention I had no nitrite or nitrate reading
He said the new bacteria on the media that he gave me does not like high ammonia to do a 50% water change and add media to the canister filter I'm on my way home now what do you think

He said I should be cycled in a week or two then he just gave me two huge matts of media from their tanks


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## aaron1129 (Dec 29, 2015)

fltekdiver said:


> I forgot to mention I had no nitrite or nitrate reading
> He said the new bacteria on the media that he gave me does not like high ammonia to do a 50% water change and add media to the canister filter I'm on my way home now what do you think. He said I should be cycled in a week or two then he just gave me two huge matts of media from their tanks


That should work like a charm, and I would take his advice on the water change.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Ok perfect I didn't want to do anything so I heard from you guys

I'm so excited I got this media from their tanks he gave me two huge rolls of media from their filters that filter like 20 tanks


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Drained 50% of the water , added the filter media in each tray, check this stuff out, lol, it's dirty, plenty full of bacteria and I got 2, one for each canister!


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

That filter media should definitely get things going. I would hold off on dosing with ammonia till you get close to a 0 reading and then just dose 1-2 ppm. I would not do it more than a two to three times per week (unless of course the tank cycles within the next few days).

The conclusion I'm drawing from your experience is that frequent heavy dosing of ammonia and not letting it drop below 1ppm is a bad idea.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

ok thanks ! I'm thinking this will REALLY speed up the cycling process! I'll have to check everything now every day

Once the tank is filled ( It's filling now and prime added ) I'll check ammonia reading in a hour to see where I'm at

From here on out, I'm going to let the ammonia get to 0, and only dose to 1-2ppm at the most like you said, and wait till it hits 0 again

This should really speed things up, so Now I'm talking to the wife after going to multiple fish stores today, to decide between Mbuna only, or a mix of Mbuna and Haps , ( Mbuna like Yellow Labs and Acei ) to mix with All Male Haps

Times running out now !

OH BTW, she wants another salt water tank again, we thinking a 120G in the livingroom !


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

I've been wanting to do a cyrtocara moorii and yellow lab tank for years. I think I saw an earlier post of yours saying you were considering that too.

Why is time running out?

It may still take a bit of time still for your tank to fully cycle. I started cycling a 40G on December 19th. I added biomedia from an established filter to the canister I'm using on the 40G (just as you are now). My ammonia didn't drop below 0.25ppm till the middle of last week and my nitrites finally dropped to 0 on Friday. In total it took about 13-14 days. I dosed with ammonia at 2ppm a total of 5 times.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Ok thanks ! The LFS store said with this much media I just introduced , they said it may cycle as early as next weekend, and to take readings every day now so I don't miss the Nitrite spike

Yes I'm having a hard time with just keeping it a Mbuna Tank.

I have a 29" tall tank now, and I wanted a few trophy fish like 6-8" big swimming by.

My wife really likes allot of the Haps, as their colors resemble SW allot. Today riding home from several fish stores, she wanted to me just drain the 150, and go back to salt, and convert it over. We have done this several times all ready in the past, flip flopping between the 2 FW & SW

I told her I really wanted to keep the 150 a FW tank, and if we do SW again, I'll get a 90G to 120G rimless SW tank and put it in the livingroom

I was going to remove allot of the rock work today, and open the tank back up, for P&H's , but I didn't want to disturb the cycle.

I also know I don't want to do a female/male tank with P&H, and I know they may not fully color up without the presence of a female, but I really don't want anything not colorful in the tank.

I'm not crazy about my rockwork either. I love the tanks that have some plants, and driftwood in them, and a pile or a few pcs of rock

Here's a pic of the tank, It's still alittle cloudy after the water change , I'm hoping it clears up


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

fltekdiver said:


> I love the tanks that have some plants, and driftwood in them, and a pile or a few pcs of rock


You may need to come over to the dark side and keep SA/CA cichlids.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

LOL, I don't even know what they are, lol

I'm probably going to rearrange the rock work when it's cycled, open up the tank some, and Go with Yellow Labs and Acei for Mbuna, along with Haps

I'll get the best of both worlds


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

The water change helped. I went from 4ppm to 2ppm ammonia. Tank Is clearing up from the cloudiness

0 Nitrite or Nitrate, I knew it would be, just thought I'd check 

I'll let the ammonia drop to 0 and re-dose only to 1-2ppm after 24 hours, and wait to see my Nitrite spike now


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Ok, I'm still stuck?

I added the new Media Sunday. Today Wednesday, 3 days later, I have Ammonia at 1ppm, and no Nitrite readings yet?

I did a 50% water change on Sunday and added the media to the canister filters

Shouldn't I see something by now?


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

I wouldn't be concerned yet. You have to look at it like you're starting the cycle over. The media will make a big difference with speeding things up but probably won't give you an instant cycle. I did something similar a few weeks ago (added media from a cycled filter to a new tank). It still took about 10 days to fully cycle.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Ohh ok thanks, I was getting nervous, it's 3 days now with the same readings

Once I see a Nitrite spike, or ammonia decrease more steadily, I'll feel better

Thanks again


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

I just tested my tap water ( city water ) and I have 1ppm ammonia out of the faucet ?

Is this something to be concerned about? In my SW tanks I had a RO-DI unit, do I need to buy another one for FW ?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'd contact the city. You have to drink that stuff!

If you use prime, it should handle the ammonia.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Isn't that going to affect the cycle? Maybe that right there has been your issue all along. I thought you've already checked that. I would double check to make sure your test samples are accurate.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

True if you are still cycling no Prime. Once the bacteria are established and you have fish...the prime will handle the ammonia immediately and the bacterial will handle the ammonia within 24 hours.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Ok thanks, I'm using prime to cycle

I appreciate it


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

I added the media from a established tank last Sunday. Ammonis then was 2.00ppm or alittle higher

Today, 5 days later, Ammonia is 1.00ppm and No Nitrites yet

When do you think I'll start to see Nitrites show up and ammonia converting within 24 hours ?

I started the cycle back on Dec 12th all most 4 weeks ago


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

fltekdiver said:


> I just tested my tap water ( city water ) and I have 1ppm ammonia out of the faucet ?


Your tap water is treated with chloramine so you will get a low ammonia reading (here's Melbourne's water report). 1ppm is high. I would report that to the city.



DJRansome said:


> True if you are still cycling no Prime.


I disagree. Continue to use Prime while cycling. It will not affect your cycle. Lots of threads on the internet speaking to this very issue. My water has chloramine. I always use Prime while cycling.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Thanks ! I'm slowly processing ammonia, its taking forever


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

When I fishless cycle, my ammonia often only drops down to 0.25. I keep dosing to 1-2ppm a couple times per week. At the very end when the nitrite drops to 0, only then does the ammonia go down to 0.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Ok, I was at 2ppm last Sunday, and today I'm at 1ppm. Seems like a long time to drop only 1ppm , especially since I added all that media last weekend

I'm hoping I'm only a few weeks out, as its been 4 weeks now


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

You've been at 1ppm since Wednesday, right?


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Yes, I'll test it again this afternoon and post. We're heading to the LFS now to give them a list to see what's available

I'll bring some water up to them also


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

You might get to see your future fish's grandparents today at the rate you're cycling this tank, lol.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Haha !
I just tested it, ammonia is below 1.00ppm
It's hard to read, but it looks like it's 0.50 ppm or 0.25ppm


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Stick with it....don't be tempted to throw any fish in too early again. I think the discovery of ammonia in your tap water is pretty telling. With the established media you should get over the hump pretty soon, but without it was going to take a long time to get past the ammonia.

I'm still confused as to why your tank is still so cloudy. It should have settled sooner if it was from the rock.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Yeh I don't know
I think maybe I keep messing with it
The other day I redid the aquascaping, and stirred everything back up, but it's new sand, so that shouldn't have mattered

It will clear up with water changes down. The road

We're 10 min away from the LFS in Daytona. I bought a water sample also, to talk to Billy


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Good idea. Lace rock is pulled out of the earth and can be really dirty. With all of the holes and crevices it can hold a lot of dirt and debris. Hopefully you at least washed off the loose dirt from the rock before you put it in your tank.

Tell Billy "Hi" from down south.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

fltekdiver said:


> I just tested it, ammonia is below 1.00ppm
> It's hard to read, but it looks like it's 0.50 ppm or 0.25ppm


That's good. Any nitrite reading yet?

You can dose again to 1-2ppm of ammonia today or tomorrow. Don't bother waiting for it to go to 0.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Ok I will tell billy you said hi from down south
We're here now, just leaving
Yes I power washed the rock on each side and then rinsed it

I'll dose it back to 2ppm ammonia today 
no nitrite reading just yet

I am thinking I restarted the cycle last weekend but with the new media it should go pretty quick


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

I would wait till tomorrow to dose again....you've been really slow going so another day won't hurt anything. Recheck nitrites...you should have something showing up if ammonia is almost gone.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Ah man , I just dosed to 1-2ppm
I'll check it in a half hour, to see where it is, as I just added the ammonia
I checked nitrites, nothing yet


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Don't worry about it. It's just that you've been having such a hard time cycling and if it was me, I would want to see ammonia actually reach zero....especially since you are not seeing any nitrite present. If you still have a zero nitrite level, what is the ammonia being converted to?? It has to be going somewhere if it's dropping.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

If you power washed your rock and rinsed the sand really well...why is the water so cloudy?? I put in 130 lbs of Lace rock and my tank was and has stayed crystal clear since day one. I know you cleaned the background thoroughly...are you sure it's made for fish aquariums and not lizard aquariums? I know this is an obvious thing but you never know.

Is your water straight from the tap cloudy? Might want to check that too. Check your nitrates too, see if you find anything.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Yeh man, Here's the tank when I first set it up. It didn't get cloudy till I think I stalled the cycle. No my 90G tank was crystal clear also on the water. The 3D background is from universal rocks, for aquariums. I power washed it also and cleaned it. It's the same background I had on my 90G, just larger size, and had to buy a new one for $200.00
Only thing different from my 90G to the 150G is I kept the sand with alittle water in the buckets that stunk while I set the 150G up. I rinsed the sand really quick , but thought their maybe still bacteria, so I didn't focus on rinsing it to much, so it came out of my 90G tank, and the water was clear for the 3 weeks. I only added 2 more bags of new sand, and rinsed them out as well. The rock got power washed each pc, both sides, then rinsed off in a huge plastic bin. When the water was clear, I set them aside to dry.

I just checked the ammonia, and it's back to 2ppm, so it hit it on the nose with the dose of ammonia

No Nitrate or Nitrite readings yet. I keep checking Nitrates 2 a week, to make sure since I added the new media last weekend, I don't miss the Nitrite Spike. My friend is cycling a 55G started last Sunday, he bought 5 Mbuna today from Billy, AND is going to finish his cycle with fish

Here's a pic of the tank , it was like this for 2+ weeks, until something happened, and it went cloudy 10 days ago:



Here's a photo today of the tank, I have another 3' Bamboo plant coming and some more plants. I love those 3' bamboo plants, they are awesome


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

I don't know, they make these kits so hard to tell the difference between colors. I'm not sure now If I have 5.00ppm Nitrates showing up
I looked at the picture from last week, and Nitrates were yellow. Now it appears to be orange
Here's today reading Nitrates :



Here's Sunday's reading last week, you can see Nitrates are definitely more yellow :


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

It's hard to see any orange in the photo, but if you have any it's not much. The bamboo adds some color and helps fill in some of the huge area in the upper half of the tank. They do a good job of hiding the equipment too.

That cloudy issue has me baffled. It sounds like it could be coming from the substrate. But I don't know.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

Roger That said:


> Don't worry about it. It's just that you've been having such a hard time cycling and if it was me, I would want to see ammonia actually reach zero....especially since you are not seeing any nitrite present. If you still have a zero nitrite level, what is the ammonia being converted to?? It has to be going somewhere if it's dropping.


When water is treated with chloramine and you dechlorinate with Prime it is possible to get a false positive ammonia reading with the API test kit. If you used Seachem's test kit (I'm not suggesting you should), you would likely get a 0 ammonia reading. Every cycle I've done has had ammonia drop to 0.25 according to the API test kit and then stay there till the end when nitrites drop to 0. If you wait for your ammonia to drop according to the API test kit, you could be waiting a while and risk starving the beneficial bacteria. My advice would be to dose at least twice per week and stop testing ammonia. It's the nitrite spike and return to 0 that needs to be the focus. Once this has happened dose once more and test the ammonia and nitrites 24 hours later. I'm fairly certain (I've seen it on five previous fishless cycles) that ammonia will be 0 at that point.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

I don't know

If it was , then it wouldn't have been so clear for the 1st 2 weeks?

It only happened about 10 days ago

The water change last weekend cleared it up, but it's still really cloudy


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

zimmy said:


> When water is treated with chloramine and you dechlorinate with Prime it is possible to get a false positive ammonia reading with the API test kit. If you used Seachem's test kit (I'm not suggesting you should), you would likely get a 0 ammonia reading. Every cycle I've done has had ammonia drop to 0.25 according to the API test kit and then stay there till the end when nitrites drop to 0. If you wait for your ammonia to drop according to the API test kit, you could be waiting a while and risk starving the beneficial bacteria. My advice would be to dose at least twice per week and stop testing ammonia. It's the nitrite spike and return to 0 that needs to be the focus. Once this has happened dose once more and test the ammonia and nitrites 24 hours later. I'm fairly certain (I've seen it on five previous fishless cycles) that ammonia will be 0 at that point.


Ahh, I wasn't aware of that. I haven't had any experience with chloramine. When I was fishless cycling, when the ammonia got down to .25 ppm to zero I had a pretty high nitrite level....like 40+ppm.

What do you think the water cloudiness issue he's having could be attributed to?


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

Roger That said:


> When I was fishless cycling, when the ammonia got down to .25 ppm to zero I had a pretty high nitrite level....like 40+ppm.
> 
> What do you think the water cloudiness issue he's having could be attributed to?


It is odd to not be getting a nitrite reading. I've heard of it happening before but then there should be nitrates. The cloudiness could be a bacterial bloom, but that's just a guess. I would just ignore it and keep going with the cycling.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

So I haven't tested it yet today, but I see a few options here. I redosed ammonia yesterday to 2.00ppm. It took 4 days to get below 1ppm. If the cycle was near complete, I should start to see higher nitrates now if the ammonia is being converted and the ammonia should be dropping quickly now, within 24 hours.

If the cycle restarted last Sunday a week ago, since adding the media from a established tank, It could be still a few weeks our, and the signs would be ammonia not dropping again like when it was stalled. If the ammonia hangs all week again, and I have no signs of nitrites or nitrates, then I'll be lost, because the media should have deffinalty got it going


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Ok I'm a few hours shy of being 24 hours since tested yesterday, so I'll do another reading later this afternoon

Ammonia is 1.00ppm, Nitrite is still 0 , and Nitrate is same as yesterday, yellow 0 or just alittle bit orange , but more on the yellow side

This Tuesday makes a month since starting the cycle, and today makes a week since adding all that estlibished media from the LFS

If it still stays the same the next few days, I'm going to order DR Tims One and only, and stock fish next weekend I think, I don't know what else to do again


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## Samadhikash (Jun 16, 2015)

Getting a tank to cycle can definitely feel like it's going to take forever. I think someone else already mentioned; it's not at all uncommon for a "textbook" cycle to take six weeks. And though you've now added some seeded filter material (by far a more productive option than bacteria in a bottle of any brand, IMHO) keep in mind that while the bacteria reproduce relatively quickly we're talking in terms of days and not minutes. I think most folks here can appreciate your excitement and sense of frustration, we've been there with a tank in one way or another. But be patient, stay the course, and you'll reach your goal.

One thing I haven't seen you mention is your pH. I'm curious because a low pH (say like 6.5) can slow or stall the establishment of your cycle. Just something that crossed my mind as a parameter you might check.

Hang in there!


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Okay thank you I appreciate the encouragement

My PH is 8.0 at the start of the cycle out of my tap

I have not tested it much throughout the cycle because I thought it could be skewed

That was one of the first things I checked in a beginner so I knew where my starting point was


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

I just checked everything again , as of 1/10/15

Ammonia 1.00ppm maybe .50ppm , not sure with the test kit
No Nitrite 
No Nitrate

Low PH test 7.6 
High PH test 7.8

Water temp 82

Here's a full tank shot with the new aquascaping :



Right Side :



Left side:


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

I'm sure you've mentioned this at some point in this thread but what kind of filter(s) and media are you using?


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

I'm using 2 filters, their both Fuval FX6 bought brand new. I'm also using a Jeabo Power Head RW8 which comes in Tuesday for water movement and I'll be adding another Jebao RW4 or Hydor 1150GPH power head
I like the Jebao's , I had them on my 180SW tanks. They syc together, or go opposite each other. Another nice thing is they have a button for a feed mode, shuts them down to 10 min, and also a night time mode, which cuts them down 50% of the regular setting what ever you have set at

The media I removed the charcoal from the filters, and using their filter media

I also added Bio Sphere balls and all whole bunch of Seachem Matrix from my Sump when I was cycling my 90G tank.

Last Sunday I added the media matts that were really dirty, lots of bio on them from the LFS. I put them in the top baskets of the FX6


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

So my ammonia today since Saturday I dosed it to 2.00 ppm, and it's around .50ppm, or 1.00ppm

No nitrite or nitrates yet

It's now 10 days after seeding the tank with the media filter, and 1 month since the start of the cycle

At this point, I don't know what else to do

If I add 6 yellow labs Mbuna, that may be beneficial at this point , rather then dosing every few days with ammonia?


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

I would wait till your tank is processing 1-2ppm ammonia in 24 hours. You've come this far it would be a shame to give up now.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

I don't know if it ever will, lol

10 days after Adding all that seeded filter material, and I still see no changes

At this point, even if I had nitrite or nitrate readings, I knew I was moving on past the first phase of ammonia

But man, it's just not doing anything


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Another thing is, wth all this time going by with an empty tank, were still all over the place. Yesterday I thought about putting a overflow box on it, making a sump, removing the background, and just going back to SW

Then I thought about if I should do an all male tank still. I keep reading and reading, How people spend $35 to $50 a fish for sexed P&H's , only to re home half of them and give them away. Or only get a few bucks for a fish after paying $50 for it
How they switched to a mixed gender tank, etc

I'm thinking, man, I could spend $1k in fish alone to get this thing up and running

So yesterday, we were looking at Mbuna again, with maybe 2 Haps as show pcs

We're just all over the place still, lol, I need something in the tank soon, so I stop changing my mind, lol

I really like the Red Sea Max 450 rimless SW tank. We're thinking stocking this now with Mbuna, and putting the money towards a reef tank again


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

I dosed on Saturday ammonia to 2.00ppm. Yesterday it was at 1ppm

Today's 5 days to go down 1ppm?

Should I redose in case the API test kit isn't giving me a correct reading? I can't tell if it's .50ppm or 1.00ppm?

Also today is 10 days since adding the media to the filters, shouldn't I see something by now?


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## tanker3 (May 18, 2015)

I am wondering if there is somehing in the water killing the Bacteria. Is the water treated? How did you treat the water? Prime?


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

I add Prime to the tank, then add the water last weekend when I did the water change

I didn't add bleach or anything to the lace rock when I received it, I only power washed them, rinsed them over night, and rinsed them again the next day and put them in

The 3D background I just power washed

The rest of the gravel came from 90G and media in the canister filters

The cloudiness in the water, just starting to clear up

I'm lost as towhats going on?


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

The cycle is still stalled, here's a picture of the test done 10 days ago on 1/3



Here's a picture 10 days later on 10/13 :


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

I called the LFS, and they said to do a 90% water change, since the sand and rocks over night again, and start over?

They said it's been 10 days since adding the media, and nothings happened

I don't know what else to do ?

I was going to change the sand to the brown/white sand to brighten the tank up some, and make it look more natural. I was going to buy the live sand

DO you think I should do anything?


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

I have to say I've never seen or heard of a cycle experience like yours before. 


tanker3 said:


> I am wondering if there is somehing in the water killing the Bacteria. Is the water treated? How did you treat the water? Prime?


This seems like a reasonable question except you clearly do have some bacteria getting established to convert your ammonia...but convert it to what? Where's it going? The use of chloramine in your tap water is going to give you a false positive with the other products you're using but you should still be getting a nitrite reading or nitrates if nitrites are at 0.

Is it worth getting a different brand test kit to see if you get the same result? Not sure if your LFS also uses the API. I know you took your water there to get tested too.

If you got the same results from another test kit, I'd be inclined to go with the LFS's recommendation to essentially start over.

I wish I could be more helpful.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Thanks for the help. They use a different kit other then the API. I think it's rea sea. It's about $78 for the kit

I agree, If I was getting a Nitrite reading, or Nitrate, I'd hold on. But after 5 weeks now, with no reading from each, even at the start of the cycle my ammonia dropped from 4ppm to 0 at 12 days, but never a nitrite reading?

So ammonia is being converted to what?

I'm lost, I think everyone is at this point.

Only really thing I can do at this point, would be drain the tank, clean everything in again in it, which I'm not sure what will do, I cleaned everything really well, but if you look back at my 90G cycle, I never had a Nitrite reading after 3 weeks either ?

So I think tomorrow night I'll drain it, leave the media in the canister filters, clean the 3D back ground, sand, rocks, and start over

That's probably 3-4 work , so I'll probably fill it back up by Saturday, and start over


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

fltekdiver said:


> but if you look back at my 90G cycle, I never had a Nitrite reading after 3 weeks either ?


Did the 90G eventually cycle without a nitrite reading?


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

No, it never got a Nitrite reading or Nitrate. I'm thinking the API Test kit is giving me false ammonia readings, and maybe the BB are dying because I'm dosing once a week. Maybe I'll dose again tonight, and again Saturday or Sunday. Because the tank was cloudy for the past 10 days, and the last 2 days the water is crystal clear now, and I haven't done anything to it

Here's a tank shot now, it's crystal clear, and the power head on the left is moving a ton of water in the tank. Water temp is 83


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

You went through the exact same thing with the 90G?!? Different decorations, substrate and filter?


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

The 90G had a sump. I took the Seachem Matrix out of the sump and put it into the canister filters. Same with the bio speres that were in the sump, their in the canister filters. They dried up though, because it took several weeks once I sold the 90G to buy the 150, build the stand etc. The sand came from the 90G also. I kept alittle bit of water in the with sand, in 5 x 5 Gal buckets to hold all the sand. They water started to stink in my garage, so I washed each one back out quickly before putting in this tank. The large rock on the left was from the 90G. The lace rock was all just added
The 3D background is new. Plants are all new. The 2 x fuval FX6 canister filters are new, started up with this tank only.

My friend thinks the water cleared up, and I'm getting false readings on the API test kit because of the chloramine in the tap water. He mentioned, to leave it tonight, goto the LFS tomorrow, let them re-test.

If they tell me I have ammonia using another test kit, and No Nitrites or Nitrates, then we know to start over. He mentioned, since the water cleared up in the past 2 days, I have some living BB , and that I probably don't really have any ammonia. I was going to re-dose tonight to 2ppm, but he said wait till the LFS test it tomorrow so the test is skewed. Right now I'm showing 1ppm ammonia, and if their showing 0 ammonia, then we should see a Nitrite or Nitrate reading from them tomorrow

He mentioned, if they test, and I have 0 ammonia, to re-dose tomorrow eve with ammonia, and I'm probably between the ammonia and Nitrite phase, and he said I should see a Nitrite reading any day then

I don't get it, now the tank is crystal clear again. I think that's from the power head for sure , because I have the FX6 out put's one pointed to the surface, and one pointed towards the front glass


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

It's definitely worth having the LFS retest.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

10/4

I'm not going to touch the water, and see what they come up with. The last time I touched it was Saturday I redosed to 2.00ppm

I'll update Thursday after work, and post the results

Keeping my fingers crossed


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Posting this from LFS, their using Nutafin test kit
Ammonia 1.5pm
No nitrite or Nitrate reading
PH 7.8

They said to do a 50% water change and sold me a bunch of bacteria in a bottle

They said add the bacteria in the bottle into the tank if the ammonia drops in a couple days I might get and nitrites spkie, that I know nothing in the tank is killing the bacteria

They said if I do not get any ammonia drop then something in the tank is killing the bacteria , then take everything out and start over and wash it


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Ok, Found out what happened ! 2 weeks ago the cycle stalled. The media they gave me they change out weekly the owner stated. He said, the media they gave me is not from a established tank, over a month old, and their for, had little to no BB. I said, that makes sense, so the cycle stalled, I thought I kick started it by adding media from a established tank, to find out the media at most was a week old, and had no beneficial bacteria to seed my tank and re-start my cycle

So tonight, I did a 50% water change., and added Live Nitrifying Bacteria.

I'll re-test ammonia so I have a starting point tonight, and check again daily. If it goes to 0, or I even have a Nitrite spike, Then I know the cycle restarted and keep redosing

He said it would be best to add around 6 fish in to keep the Nitrifying Bacteria alive, but I'll re-dose ammonia to 1ppm and see how long it takes to goto 0


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Were on our way! The BB in a bottle got it going again! I also ordered Dr Tims one and only which is coming in today!

Got my first Nitrite spike in 5 weeks!


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

fltekdiver said:


> Got my first Nitrite spike in 5 weeks![/url]


That's great! Your patience finally paid off!


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Added 5 Yellow Labs and 5 Rusties ,( 1 M to 4F of each )

I did a 30% water change and Nitrites were half with just a tint of ammonia

I'll leave it alone now for the next several weeks. I have another 2 8oz of Dr Tims coming Tuesday. I'll add one in Tuesday and one in next weekend


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

I know you're excited to finally see a nitrite reading....and can appreciate your anxiety staring at an empty tank for so long....we are ALL anxious for you to get through your cycle, but adding ten cichlids in your tank with ammonia above .25 ppm and nitrite that is going to climb for the next few days or so might not turn out so well for the fish.

Did the LFS tell you to add the fish now?


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Yes, It's recommend since I added Dr Tim's BB in a bottle.

His website says add fish right after adding it

I wouldn't have, and I know I'm taking a risk also. If I don't add fish , I'm afraid the BB will die again or stall. If I do add fish after adding the BB in a bottle, I risk them dying.

Since I added fish, I ordered another 2 bottles which will be here Tuesday

This is why I did it. On 1/02/16 My friend also bought a 55G from Petco's $1 a gallon sale

On 1/6/16 he filled it and finished his stand
On 1/9 he added Dr Tims, and on 1/10 he added 5 Mbuna, 2 yellow labs, 2 Maingano , and 2 Orange Zebra's. Not my choice of fish to start, and I was all against adding fish last weekend

Tomorrow he's going over again to buy 10 -15 more. Again, I know he will probably overload his bio , and possibly crash the tank, But the point is, his original fish are doing well, and he's had no high Nitrite or ammonia spike, possibly because of the BB in a bottle

I'm expecting one of two things: The fish will help my through the rest of the cycle , and it will end in the next day or two as the BB in a bottle really kicks in. If not, I have plenty more bottles coming
Or I could loose $150 in fish and 10 fish. I don't think this will happen, as I can control the Nitrite spikes with water changes, and hopefully the BB in a bottle works as advertised.

But yes, I talked to Billy and the older gentleman helped me in the store, they did a water test , and recommended adding 10 fish

( remember I went down this road with my 90G , and I'm hoping this doesn't turn out like that ) Difference is here, I started adding BB in a bottle from Dr Tims , keeping my fingers crossed it works


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

I've got my fingers crossed with ya!


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

LOL, me to believe me
Took the wife today also
I told her to pick which fish she likes the best
I showed her P&H and mbuna
I explained the difference going up, and let her watch you tube videos 
She wanted mbuna, so at least we finally got that straight now, lol


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

I hope it works out for you with the fish but I have to say in my experience the benefits of Dr. Tim's (or any bacteria in a bottle product) is overrated. I've used Dr. Tim's twice at the beginning of a fishless cycle and another product once. All three times it took over 20 days to complete the cycle.

I know you'll be monitoring your water closely. Be prepared to do lots of water changes if you want the fish to survive.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Yes, I appreciate it 
I was just telling my friend I may have to do allot of water changes , lol
I'll be watching it close


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

I used a similar bacteria in a bottle product in my daughter's community tank....I don't remember the brand. Just make sure and read the directions carefully. The one I used had two different sets of directions, one was for new tanks. It had me dose it the first time twice as much then add a dose each day for a week. It said I could add fish 48 hours after the first dose, which I did. Put in some neon Tetra's, German Rams and danio's. Had a few losses over a month but probably due to overstocking....otherwise they have been fine ever since.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Yeh, my friends tank us doing great
I'm 5 weeks into a cycle, he's a little over a week, and using it, seems to be working 
It got me back on track a few days ago
As soon as I added it, I had my first nitrite spike
As long as I keep up with water changes 
I should be ok
Only thus will change my stocking 
Instead of all at once, now I'll wait 3 weeks then restock again with another 10 and so on


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

If you're going to introduce fish into the tank this way, you may not want to add more than five fish at a time. You don't want to overload your bio-load and cause a spike, ten might be a lot to add at one time.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Yes, I thought the same. I originally was only going to add 5. But they had thought 5 fish at their size - 1-1/2" to 2" at most , wasn't allot for a 150G tank

So I ended up with 2 species at once

I'll check the water again today and post the results. I got a email both Dr Tims will be here tomorrow one and only. I may have to do another 25% water change today if I'm still showing Nitrites


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

You want to keep your nitrite at .25 ppm or below....same with ammonia. The negative thing about doing it this way is the fact that you are using the fish as your ammonia source, therefore only ever producing enough ammonia to create a bacteria colony large enough to support the amount of fish you currently have in the tank. Each time you add fish to your group....you're going to have a little spike until the bacteria colony can grow large enough to support the bio-load.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Also...it doesn't have to be Dr Tim's. Ant bacteria in a bottle will work the same...Stability, API, etc. all have the same benefit but established media is best. See if you can get a small media pouch or two full of established substrate (gravel if they have it) and place it directly under your filter intake tubes. The intakes will draw up the bacteria into your filter's bio-media and will jumpstart the bacteria colony. This is what I did plus added Stability when I first filled the tank, and cycled my tank start to finish in ten days.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Ok thank you for your help once again

How do we know I don't have enough bacteria in the tank from all the dosing of ammonia and just stalled the tank.?

What I am thinking is the nitrite spike will go away quickly maybe in the next day and the tank is cycled that is what I'm hoping for that's why I got the fish yesterday

The whole issue with this particular cycle is I don't know where I am because five weeks later it restarted


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Well I think it is obvious that you never had enough bacteria to turn the next step of your cycle to get past the nitrite phase. Something may have been killing the bacteria before it could reproduce, and you could still have this issue going forward since we still have not figured that one out.

But you could get lucky and the bacteria in a bottle, along with the fish, gets it going enough to establish itself. I think you cleaned your rock well enough. I don't like the idea of your substrate sitting in old tank water in buckets for more than a couple of days before adding into the tank like you did. And your 3D background sounds to have also been cleaned well enough, but could possibly be leaching something into the water that the bacteria doesn't like. All of these things are possibilities of potential issues that you have been experiencing.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Check out my "Fuelleborni Spawning" post in the "Lake Malawi" forum section. This will give you an idea of how Mbuna interact in a good Eco environment after just four months.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Ok will do

I just tested the water, and let my wife verify the colors on the test

PH 7.8
Nitrite is .25ppm
Ammonia is .25ppm
No Nitrates yet, they should show up anytime

I'm going to do another 25% water change again tonight, to remove some of the Nitrite
I'm assuming I'll see a spike from adding the fish, but with the BB in a bottle, I may not now

I just fed the fish. Their all swimming around, gliding trough the rocks, digging holes, their fun to watch!


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

They are fun to watch. When you have all of them in and the Eco environment is established and well you will get to watch them establish territories and dominance, spawn, play in the current, dig and reaquascape to their liking and interact with you. They all have their own little tendencies that are unique to their own species.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

I now have at least one lone survivor out of all of the fry that has been spit into the tank over the past three months. It's a little Yellow Lab. I fed him some ground up flakes for a few days then just make sure some pellets fall into his area of rock that he was hiding in. He now roams wherever he wants and has grown to about an inch now.

I also saw a few Rusty fry a few days ago hiding in the same area but haven't seen any of them since...so I'm assuming those guys were likely eaten.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Very cool, thanks for sharing !

So do you keep them in the tank? How does that work out with the ratios M to F ?

My friend just bought 20 Juveniles Mbuna from a whole sale place in Vero Beach he found on Craigs List, for $1.50 a pc , He's putting in his 55G now

He also got me filter pads from his filters !


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

There you go! Throw those dirty filter pads in one of your filter baskets and leave it there for a few months. Any benefial bacteria you can add at this point will only help.

Yeah...he's in the tank. I don't really have a choice unless I want to remove all of the rock, lol. As far as male to female ratios...I don't know, you're guess is as good as mine. I originally ordered one male and four female Yellow Labs but I received six. One I know for certain one is a male...he's been reproducing like crazy, the others I'm fairly certain are females except maybe one that may possibly be a subdominant male. I still haven't completely learned how to distinguish males from females on most species.

But I've read that three male Yellow Labs could work if you have enough females. I'm not sure of the required ratio with three males but I would imagine that ten to twelve females should be fine.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

I'm wondering if I'm spending allot of extra money trying to keep their ratios right?

I can get juveniles at $1.50pc a pc.

SO what happens in months down the road with all these fish re-spawning? Do I end up with a over stocked tank from all the babies? And what about ratios then?


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

You add a group a Synodontis Multipunctatus to help control the fry. That's why after three or more months of constant spawning by all species except the Cats (that I know of) and the Maingano I have only the one lone Yellow Lab survivor. He's a keeper!

Did you watch my video in the link to the "Fuelleborni Spawning" post that I have in the "Lake Malawi" forum section? If you watch carefully, you can see the male Fuelleborni fighting off the Synodontis Multipunctatus' as he's circling with the female exchanging eggs. The cats are right in there eating the eggs as fast as they can lay them and scoop them up. Half of every fry batch gets eaten that way alone. Then after the female spits the fry out into the rocks when ready, most all of them get eaten by the cats or other Mbuna....maybe even the parents.

When they grow a bit you can net them out of the tank if you want. If you don't want or care to keep fry like myself...get a group of five to seven Synodontis Multipunctatus.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

In fact...the first thing you should add next to your stock is a small group of five Synodontis Multipunctatus to get established before adding any aggressive species. They will also increase your bio load so I would stick to five at a time.


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Be careful of those 1.50 juveniles though...could be some strains that aren't as pure as they should be if you know what I mean. Make sure your getting your stock from a reputable breeder, like the one you've been visiting in Daytona. It's worth the extra cost to get nice healthy and well bred fish. I got mine between 1-3/4" and 2" (young adult) to try and get the sex ratios as accurate as possible.

I've only lost one Maingano out of 37 fish that I ordered and introduced into the tank all at the same time. And that was in the first few weeks...it was a runt that never grew or ate. It just disappeared about a month after adding my stock. Other than that....I've had a tank full of happy healthy fish!


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Thanks, I will check out the video tonight 

I'm doing another 25% water change right now

Results after 24 hours of fish in the tank are:
PH 7.8
Ammonia 0.25ppm
Nitrite 0.25ppm
Nitrate 10.00ppm
Water temp 80


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Make sure and add Prime...it will help nullify the ammonia and nitrite as well as dechlorinate.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Did it thanks .
I add it before adding the new water into the tank

Tanks doubt great, water is crystal clear, and fish are eattin and swimming all around 
No heavy breathing or anything


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

That's good...don't want any pervert fish


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Haha!


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

I may have to do water changes all week, I don't care
I'm so happy to have Nitrates now, and fish in the tank!
I love this tank !


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

I always thought I would hate water changes...but it has become such a routine that I look forward to it. Kind of like therapy.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Yes, I agree. Much easier on a FW tank vs salt water
Last week we were really considering going back to SW, and all most gave up on the tank

Getting the aquascaping they way I like it, water cleared up, fish finally in the tank, I love the tank, I don't think we'll be starting another SW tank up soon, if anything, I been looking to get another FW tank for another tank to rehome etc


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## PlantFishMan (Oct 12, 2015)

*"I'm so happy to have Nitrates now"* Be careful what you wish for when it comes to nitrates!


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

I was meaning I would be at the end of my cycle 

So today, I did another 25% water change last night, and today, I have 
0 ammonia
0 Nitrite
10-20ppm Nitrate

So I'll do another 25% water change tomorrow night

Looks like I'm cycled !


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## Roger That (Aug 12, 2015)

Congratulations!


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Thank you, Very Excited ! Wow that last few steps went quick, lasted 5 days!

I'll do a water change 25% tomorrow night to remove the Nitrates, and wait another 3 weeks before adding more fish, but were there !

I added a bottle of Dr Tims in the tank tonight, and another bottle in the canister filter just in case


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

:thumb: That's great news! I'm glad it worked out.


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## tanker3 (May 18, 2015)

I would not worry at all about the 10-20ppm of Nitrates. I would change water when about to add fish, not 3 weeks before adding fishes. You must still add ammonia every day.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

tanker3 said:


> I would not worry at all about the 10-20ppm of Nitrates. I would change water when about to add fish, not 3 weeks before adding fishes. You must still add ammonia every day.


tanker3, the OP already has fish in the tank.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Yes sir, thanks Zimmy, fish were added Saturday ! Did water changes every night except for tonight, no need to now with Nitrates only at 20ppm

Thanks guy's were sooooooo excited, thank you all for your help!

I love this tank, I'm so happy we didn't give up and tear it down ! We love watching them dig holes, OMG, they moved my sand everywhere, LOL Their making mountians and hills, moving stuff where ever they like it, lol, these little devils I call them, hahaha


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## tanker3 (May 18, 2015)

Thanks Zimmy. I looked at the* "and wait another 3 weeks before adding more fish", *and missed the *"More"*


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

0 ammonia
0 Nitrite
20ppm Nitrate

I just did another 25% water change just to be sure , still looking good , water is crystal clear ,fish are healthy, swimming all around, eating well, follow me right upto the tank like it's feeding time everytime, lol


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Just an FYI (for the next time):

After a long hiatus from the hobby, I filled one of my 55's and started doing a fishless cycle (as per the article here on the forum) on it back around the 8th or 9th of this month. The clear ammonia I used was old and had possibly been diluted (cut with water) ... took quite a bit to get the ammonia up to 2 ppm. Ran out to ACE Hardware after a day or so and picked a fresh bottle (it's 14% solution) and started dosing with that. One tsp took it up to 4 ppm, so I cut the dose back to around 1/2 tsp. Still took the ammonia up to 4ppm.

After a couple of days the nitrites were off the chart (5 ppm or greater)

I used our tap water, which comes from a well and is softened, for the initial fill. pH out of the tap is 7.6. Water in the tank was initially maintained @ 78F.

In researching all this, I ran across this article:

Nitrifying Bacteria Facts

Taking note of the point regarding "phosphate block" with regard to the proliferation of _nitrobacter_ - (one of ?) the specific bacteria responsible for converting nitrite ---> nitrate - yesterday I dosed the tank with 10 drops of phosphoric acid - Kleen Strip "Prep and Etch" (available from Home Depot or Lowes) ... which is a 35% to 45% solution of phosphoric acid (the exact percent being a trade secret)

I had also (previously) cranked the tank temp up to 85F. I did minimal partial water changes ... one of around 10 gallons and another one of around 5 gallons.

Yesterday when I tested for ammonia, it was reading between 0.25 ppm and 0.0 ppm after 24 hours, nitrates were reading somewhere between 2 ppm and 5 ppm (probably closer to 5)

Did a partial water change of 5 gallons and then added the 10 drops of phosphoric acid. (Article says one should only need to do this once, which was all I did)

When I retested for nitrite approximately twelve hours later, it read *zero*.

... "phosphate block" ... _it apparently really is a thang_ ...


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Forgot to mention:

I tested for nitrate, right after testing for nitrite - nitrate read between 40 and 80 ppm.

It might be a good idea for the article on "Fishless Cycling" to be updated to reference the data that is included in the article that I linked above.


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## fltekdiver (Sep 27, 2015)

Very informative , I appreciate it, maybe we should update as you said, because we're obviously being told conflicting articals


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

fltekdiver said:


> Very informative , I appreciate it, ...


You're quite welcome.



fltekdiver said:


> maybe we should update as you said, because we're obviously being told conflicting articals


I would say that it should possibly be updated because it covers one particular aspect - the "phosphate block" - that doesn't seem to be covered in the original article.

If neglect of this aspect - for whatever reason - accounts for a (considerable) lengthening of the time it takes to cycle a tank, it would appear to be very useful data indeed.

Also another aspect is all the pwc's the original article advocates ... I understand the reasoning: (harmful) byproducts of nitrification which can (potentially) slow (or stop) the cycle and (may) need to be removed.

PWC's are certainly a way to ensure that these byproducts don't build to a level that they slow - or even stop - the cycle ... but blindly, based on no actual specific objective evidence that these harmful byproducts exist in a significant quantity in a given tank.

A possible question is: _do (excessive) pwc's somehow how inhibit the colonization of surfaces with beneficial bacteria ?_

Generally speaking, water - as a transference path - for bacteria isn't a really much of stretch :wink:

Admittedly, I did not read the referenced articles that the "Fishless Cycling" article was based on, and my experience is only a single anecdote.

But the plural of "anecdote" is *data* ...


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Just as a point of clarification, this:



wryan said:


> ... I did minimal partial water changes ... one of around 10 gallons and another one of around 5 gallons.


should read:

_"... I *previously had done* minimal partial water changes ... one of around 10 gallons and another one of around 5 gallons. ..."_

IOW: pwc's were done prior to adding the phosphoric acid. No pwc's since.


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## zimmy (Aug 13, 2010)

wryan said:


> A possible question is: _do (excessive) pwc's somehow how inhibit the colonization of surfaces with beneficial bacteria ?_


Water changes during cycling should only be done if nitrites are greater than 5ppm IMO. Nitrites being too high do seem to slow down a cycle but even this can be avoided by not dosing ammonia at too high a level. My preferred method is 1-2 ppm of ammonia a couple of times per week. I think I only did one small water change on the last tank I cycled this way.

That's an interesting article you posted. I've never heard of using phosphoric acid in the way you've described. I'll be curious to see if the addition of it has any other effects on your tank.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

zimmy said:


> Water changes during cycling should only be done if nitrites are greater than 5ppm IMO. Nitrites being too high do seem to slow down a cycle but even this can be avoided by not dosing ammonia at too high a level.


Makes sense to me ...



zimmy said:


> My preferred method is 1-2 ppm of ammonia a couple of times per week.


2 or 3 ppm was what I was shooting for ... but I failed to take into account that the concentration/percentage of ammonia from Ace Hardware has apparently changed since the "Fishless Cycling" article was originally written.

(The article mentions 10% concentration and shows an Ace Hardware bottle clearly labelled as such. They have since raised the concentration to 15% or so - and it is not shown on the bottle - had to check the MSDS)



zimmy said:


> I think I only did one small water change on the last tank I cycled this way.


Kewl :thumb:



zimmy said:


> That's an interesting article you posted. I've never heard of using phosphoric acid in the way you've described.


Me neither.



zimmy said:


> I'll be curious to see if the addition of it has any other effects on your tank.


Same here.

Since it's one of the "magic triad" - nitrogen(N) - phosphorus(P) - potassium(K) - hopefully my plants will really take off ...


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