# excessive flashing



## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

My fish are itchy. Seems to be more than just an occasional scratch. The setup is new about a month and a half. Water is good, I don't see white spots. Should I be worried? Do an early wc? Don't have aquarium salt- do I need some? Raise temp, I'm at 77-78.


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## aicardi (Sep 15, 2012)

Post actual parameters of the water. Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and ph. The tank may not be fully cycled.
What are you testing water with?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would not do temp or salt until you see spots. But definitely post test results...maybe there is another cause.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

Ph is 8. Am 0. n/n 0 temp 77-78. *** tested water every week at lfs. Test kit is on my short list. Probably this weekend. Water is good though. Fishless cycle for almost a month, tester fish for 3 weeks(danios). Yellow labs in for a month. (5) and one m. Pulpican 5 days. Tested 3 days ago


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

What does n/n 0 mean? Nitrite=0 and Nitrate=0?

Then your tank is not cycled.

Let us know what the test kit says after you try it out.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

I will get a big test kit this weekend. I was relying on what the guy told me. He wouldn't let me buy fish until my water was cycled and levels were good. He talked me out of test kit too. Said just come in here and save 30$. I trust him. That went on for over a month. My ammonia was high. That was a month ago. All the fish look good and appear healthy. They are however, itchy


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

I was going to get the master kit but is there anything else I should test for that is not in that kit? And I will assume that your asking parameters in case of a spike in something. That could cause the itching? Learning as I go here. My piranha could've lived in toilet water. These Africans are tricky though. Enjoy the challenge though!


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

When I cycled my tank I followed the ammonia to nitrite to elevated nitrate, but after a few water changes and addition of fish I've got zero nitrate too. I have plants in the tank as well as a decent start on green algae so it seems that nitrate can be consumed as long as the bioload isn't large.

I see a little flashing right after a water change. When I first saw it I thought - oops, better do a water change and as a result, probably changed the water too frequently. Then I read that it's fairly normal for cichlids to flash after a water change so now I stick to once a week.


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## Floridagirl (Jan 10, 2008)

I'm a big fan of the dip test strips that check PH Nitite/ and Nitrate, hardness, etc. But, you will have to buy ammonia test strips also, as this is not tested in the multi strip. Walmart is the least expensive place that I've picked them up.


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## FishDad (Jan 8, 2013)

Some one more experienced in fishkeeping than myself told me that if they experienced ammonia burn at some point during a tank cycle, that their gills never fully heal and flashing will continue for a few weeks regardless of ammonia levels.


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

I like the ammonia alert card by seachem. They cost no more than an ammonia test kit and they continuously monitor ammonia for at least a year. You can move it around from tank to tank. It's especially handy to cycle a tank, but also for an early warning in the event of BB damage.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

There were no fish in tank while ammonia was registering. The danios were added a few days after the tank was believed to be ready. Ammonia has been at 0 every test since fish were in.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

And thankyou for all advice. I will do a thorough testing this weekend.


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## FishDad (Jan 8, 2013)

Yes the seachem alert card is a great help. JAS1313 from personal excperience the lfs tests aren't any good in my humble opinion. I think the true results get lost somewhere in the inaccuracy of the strips and the lack of attention to detail by an employee. That may be a blanket statement but its what I have found. It wasn't until I started taking my own LIQUID test combined with ammonia cards on all my tanks that I was really able to stay ontop of my water specs. I think even the test strips done by you would be better than going to your lfs.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

I would agree. Depends on if the owner is working at the store that day. Him I trust. The other guys...well I shouldn't know more than them but that seems the case. I should be more anal about parameters though. That's probably the most important thing.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The answer is: any toxin in the water can make them itchy. Even salt in the water can make them itchy. And levels can change in hours so it's good to have the test kit (I like the test tubes) available so you can test as soon as you see something.

I initially had test strips (I forget why) and later got the test tube kit. When tested side-by-side on the same sample, the results were different between the two methods of testing. It is said that the test tube kits are more accurate.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

just an fyi here - I too use the test tube kits and being frugal, the first thing I did was to test whether it was possible to get a good reading with half the water and reagent. It is. You can mark the tubes at the halfway point and then use half the number of drops. I only do this on the kits that use a large, even number of drops.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Yael said:


> just an fyi here - I too use the test tube kits and being frugal, the first thing I did was to test whether it was possible to get a good reading with half the water and reagent. It is. You can mark the tubes at the halfway point and then use half the number of drops. I only do this on the kits that use a large, even number of drops.


 

Just a note. Even if you use the full amount of water and drops of the chemical, I find the reagents expire before I run out. Sooo...unless you have a huge fish room, this may not be saving you as much money as you plan. :thumb:


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

Well I was testing for cycling two tanks - I'm almost out of the ammonia kit already. I've slowed way down on use now though. My expire by date says 2017 - I'm guessing I'll use it up before then even so.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Wow. I still have ammonia reagent from my original kit from 7 years ago. The only one I actually ran out of was nitrate.

You are a good tester!!!


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

Well my first tank was a mess up - hadn't done research, used the stability and put fish in right away (per lfs advice). I was scared for the fish and basically doing daily water changes and testing before and after to figure out what was going on. As a result I also went through nearly a whole small bottle of Prime and ended up buying the powdered stuff to mix my own.

It just annoys me to pay that much for what is pennies of reagent - paying for glass tubes and plastic bottles is what one is really doing....ugg. Guess vendors and fish stores have to make money too.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

Ok,got the test kit. Results: Ph - 8.1/ ammonia .15ppm / nitrite 0 ppm / nitrate 10 -20ppm. Looks like I did have a little jump in ammonia. I was quick to defend so thanks to all that pushed the issue. I did test the ammonia twice, same result. (I used the tubes) it was in between yellow and green that's why I'm saying .15 So what next?


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## DanniGirl (Jan 25, 2007)

Perform a 50% water change and make sure to a use a dechlor such as Prime or Ammo-Lock. (Both products will detoxify ammonia).
Keep up with partial water changes and monitor the ammonia. Once the readings reach 0, you can resume weekly water changes.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

thanks. appreciate all the help. still bothers me the ammonia went up but oh well.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

May have found the main culprit. My tap water tested at 2.0 I have heard of ammonia in water like that but that seems high...? Will I be fighting the levels with more changes?


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

Let your tap water sit for a bit and test again. I've heard of people having nitrate in water but not ammonia. And yes, making water changes with that 2 reading will just keep raising your ammonia and force your tank to process it which, (if the reading is true) it seems to be doing.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

Boy,if I put this much effort in everything I do I'd be dangerous. Did some checking and ammonia is fairly common in tap water. For grins I tested the filtered refrigerator water - that was closer to say .1ppm Drastic difference. Huh. Hopefully the amlock works but it has to work harder if I'm adding ammonia tainted water


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

I used Prime when I messed up my tank cycle - just doubled the dose used for chlorine per instructions. It sure does mess with your ability to read tests to pinpoint trouble though. You might want to add some plants to help soak up the nitrates that your biofilter will make out of all that ammonia.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

Never used prime. Does it remove ammonia or is it the same as ammo lock and detoxifies?


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

jas1313 said:


> Never used prime. Does it remove ammonia or is it the same as ammo lock and detoxifies?


It detoxifies it. Only way to remove it would be through the use of an RO/DI unit. Then you would have to deal with raising the KH/DH before adding the water to the tank.


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## FishDad (Jan 8, 2013)

Prime is the best IMO. It detoxes ammonia, chlorine and chloramine. Its high concentrated too. Also if you combine it with a seachem alert card you will know if your TOXIC ammonia is high. Not sure if you know or not but when you detox ammonia it binds it into a not toxic state temporarily. But will still test on the liquid kits. So for around $7 you can buyu a seachem alert card that will in realtime monitor you toxic ammonia only.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

I didn't have time to go the the real lfs but I have a petsmart 2blocks from me. They didn't have any seachem products. Have the card on my list though. Topfin has an ammonia remover. That's what it says. I tried that and did another change. I'll check it tomorrow. What's your opinion on my water situation..? If I'm doing weekly changes with water that is already at 2.0ppm is that going to be a problem? I know I proper established tank can quickly break it down but...


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

You need to do some testing IMO. If 24 hours after your water change you are still reading ammonia then something needs to be addressed. If you are consistently reading this .15 ammonia even days after a water change then it's one of two things. Either your biological filter is not sufficient to keep up with the tank stocking level, or you are not reading the test results right. Comparing colored water to solid colors on a card is never perfect. That said I would suggest you test some bottled water to get a control sample reading of 0ppm ammonia, and compare your tank water to that.

Another suggestion other than an RO/DI unit would be to set up a biological filter in a holding tank for your makeup water if you have the space. That would at least convert the dangerous ammonia to nitrate which is happening in your tank anyway.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

If your tap water is treated with chloramine, you will get an ammonia reading following a water change when the ammonia is separated from the chlorine. In most cases this is easily handled by ammonia oxidizing bacteria. Even if the bacteria isn't sufficiently established, the use of a detoxifying product like Seachem Prime will protect the fish from it's toxic effects for 24-36 hours, by which time hopefully the bacteria will have oxidized it into nitrite. If you're still seeing ammonia in your tank after 24-36 hours, dose Prime again.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

Either way you're going to end up with too much nitrate over time (I think) unless there's something in the tank to help use/remove it. How much water are you talking about if you can stick to once a week changes of ~30%? Might be worth just buying gallons of bottled water. Save the jugs and when you go somewhere with cleaner water you can fill 'em up.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

Not much water,its only a 55gal. GTZ I tested my tap water for ammonia before I did anything. So are u saying straight tap can give a false reading.? Either way a may have to buy a few jugs just to get it straight. And I am reading it right. Had 3 people confirm to make sure I was doing it right. Doubt its a stock issue as well. Its not cool though, been trying to do this right. Its amazing my south Americans lasted 8 years. I'll let the tank rest, check levels again tomorrow. (Unless 2 days is needed) and thanks to all of you. I may sound like a newbie but I've been fish keeping for almost 20 years. Thanks to this site I realize I have a lot to learn. Keep u posted. ( like the holding tank idea)


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

It's not really a false reading. If your tap water is chloraminated (chlorine+ammonia) then you'll get an ammonia reading when your dechlorinator separates the two (or perhaps without using the dechlor). With most dechlorinators (but not all) the ammonia is bound and rendered non toxic, but will still provide a positive ammonia reading and will still be available to the nitrifying bacteria. I don't have choraminated water so I don't know for sure, but 2ppm sounds rather high compared to the readings I've seen posted by other members.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

4ppm chloramine is the max set by the US EPA. How much of that 4ppm is ammonia, I don't know. I would guess in the range of 1ppm ammonia to 3-5ppm chlorine.


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

GTZ said:


> It's not really a false reading. If your tap water is chloraminated (chlorine+ammonia) then you'll get an ammonia reading when your dechlorinator separates the two (or perhaps without using the dechlor). With most dechlorinators (but not all) the ammonia is bound and rendered non toxic, but will still provide a positive ammonia reading and will still be available to the nitrifying bacteria. I don't have choraminated water so I don't know for sure, but 2ppm sounds rather high compared to the readings I've seen posted by other members.


He said he tested his water for ammonia straight out of the tap which would not be affected by chloramine. I don't think the aquarium ammonia tests can read the ammonia bound in the chloramine until after the water has been treated.

Still I would suggest comparing some bottled water to your tank water. Do an ammonia test on both samples and place them side by side. I know I have a hard time differentiating between 0ppm ammonia and .25 sometimes, and you're saying it's half way between those two. I'm not trying to say you're wrong, just making a suggestion to help rule out the possibility.


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## testeve (Sep 17, 2012)

Sorry if I missed this in a previous post, but did you test the tap water after treating it with the ammo lock or whatever product you are using? Maybe you are not using enough of he product? I would test before treatment, use the recommended dose and then test again to see what the affect is on he reading, then keep adding small amounts until the reading is zero. Just a thought.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

i'll give u a breakdown of everything i tested for ammonia:
tank water: .15ppm (that was last night before a 30% change, added ammo lock - tested the same this morning but it was under 24 hours so im not sure if the reading this morning was accurate)
straight untreated tap water: 2.0ppm
straight untreated but filtered (out of fridge) tap water: .10ppm(ish) but not a true match for a 0
bottled water: 0ppm
treated water (api tap water conditioner) with ammo lock and i let it sit for half hour: .10ppm - (reading looked like filtered water)
treated water with different ammo stuff - the top fin ammonia remover: .10ppm same as above
i even tested boiled water: .10ppm same as above
to clarify im reading the color chart correctly: i am a finisher at a cabinet shop. it is my job to custom match paint and stain as per cust/contractor. ironically last week at had a job for a department store in which i had to match 8 different color samples. 4 of them can all be found on the test kit color chart. so i stare at colors nearly every day for 13 years. *** got a better than great eye for it. just saying. but im not a biologist or chemist. and you people know more about aquariums than i do. ( oh, and i read the directions like 6 times)
i must have started a good post, keep the comments going. i want these fish to be healthy and i need to add more. again, thanks for all the help and i will test the tank tomorrow morning, post results and go from there.
(ps. i did another 20% change this morning if that matters)


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

Every time you do a water change you're adding ammonia to the front end of your nitrogen cycle. I'm not seeing how that helps with lowering ammonia at this point. From what I can tell by your use of ammonialock product, it's not removing it, but it's making it biologically/chemically unavailable somehow. I'm not sure how that product works so I don't know what it's doing to the end product - nitrate. Water changes aren't meant to remove ammonia or nitrite except as emergency measures if the cycle is disrupted. Water changes are meant to remove accumulated nitrate (end product of the reaction). By continually priming the front end with ammonia from your tap, the concern imo, is what that's doing to the nitrate accumulation. By following ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels day to day after a water change might answer that question. But back to the original question - if you weren't using ammonialock and doing frequent water changes, maybe your fish were flashing from that?


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

Well said yael.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Chloramine would be present straight out the tap I believe. Why do you think it would not be? Since it is added by the water authorities.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

My tap water doesn't register ammonia in my test kit.


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## FishDad (Jan 8, 2013)

I think this needs to be simplified a bit....

Your fish are flashing in a tank that is a month old and you are detecting ammonia, ie new tank syndrom - its still cycling. So all you have to do is daily water changes and dose with dechlor and ammo detox until you stop detecting ammonia. It will happen. But remember your fish will flash for a time after the ammonia is removed. You should be close to cycled. When you do a water change wait 24 hours before you test.

BTW I purchase my seachem from petsmart. Ask an employee or check online and when you by your alert card get the seachem brand... it last a year and only detects toxic ammonia. I swear I'm not a seachem rep, I just like there products.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

FishDad - his tap water is reading 2ppm - his tank is converting ammonia (tank water has less ammonia than his tap water) but he's adding new ammonia with each water change he makes. It seems to me that his fish are flashing because he keeps doing water changes thinking that will improve things and make the fish more comfy.


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## FishDad (Jan 8, 2013)

If a city tap water test positive for ammonia it means they have added chloramine to it. Chloramine is a compound of ammonia and chlorine, supposedly more effective at disinfecting. So his water is testing positive not because of ammonia, but because of chloramine which shows up on a liquid test kit as ammonia. Top fin dechlore does not remove chloramine, thus does not remove ammonia. Prime does and the seachem card only detects toxic ammonia.

So...

If he does a 50% change he will definitely bring existing ammonia levels to safe level. Then if he adds prime he will detox ALL ammonia, chloramine and chlorine all at the same time. Then use the alert card to read ammonia levels and you will get a true reading of toxic ammonia.

If you follow what I just said then ammonia that you add to your tank with every water change will be a moot point.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

Which is fine, except he's not using Prime or the seachem card so the ammonia he's detecting is coming from the tap, not a faulty nitrogen cycle. He's been doing water changes frequently. I still think it's the excessive water changes that are making his fish itchy. I agree that he should probably switch to Prime.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

fyi - fishdad - i use api tap water condition which says it removes chlorine and chloramines, etc. i was waiting at least 15 min. then was adding the ammolock. the top fin ammonia remover was something i got yesterday, only used it at 2nd wc. have to go so i will test it later. both you and yael are bringing up great points and i cant disagree with either.


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## FishDad (Jan 8, 2013)

Good. Then the flashing is from previous ammonia burn still agitating them and the ammonia you are detecting is non toxic. I have chloramine in my water and I went through the same excact thing about a year ago. Even though you are adding chloramine to your tank with water changes, if you have a properly cycled system it should process the ammonia with in a few hours, even the non toxic ammonia. If your adding ammo lock and stuff like that there is really not a point to testing for ammonia if it detects non toxic ammonia.

BTW if you feel the fish are still reacting too strongly to something you should think about looking elsewhere. It can't be ammonia if you are doing all these things we have talked about. I would take a second look at the decor, make sure non of it is flaking. Any foriegn rocks that may contains minerals that could leach. Do you have kids... my three year old son has a habit of trying to drop pennies in our fish tanks because we throw them in the foutains at the mall. I would double check to make sure no unwanted or suspect objects are in the tank. If it continues, they could also have parasites. Not very likely but it could happen. I may sound like a broken record but you won't be sure of anything until you can test for toxic ammonia exclusively. When you get one you can test to see if it works by holding it next to something that gives off ammonia fumes.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

my problem still continues. the flashing issue is fine actually. fish seem very happy. color, feeding, behavior and itching is just back to the occasional. water parameters went backwards though. i did a 50% water change between friday and saturday. adding ammo lock to fridays and topfin ammonia remover saturday. also sunday i took out the carbon in canister and added the matrix biomedia. (running a penguin 200 as well but didnt touch it.) is it still too early to get an accurate ammonia reading?? tested today - ammonia .25ppm / nitrites 0 / nitrates .40ppm. i also have a chemical/sulfur smell in water. i believe that to be normal when adding the ammonia remover but how strong and how long should it linger? seems odd. did i over detox? went with directions as far as ammolock goes - adding correct amount to water change quantity. i did get a bottle of prime sunday and added a few drops for good measure. do another wc? am i over thinking things? :-? i just dont know


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

Is it really 0.4 nitrate? That's not even detectable on my test or are you talking about 40 ppm? Even if your tap water has ammonia (chloramine) but was last added on Saturday then your tank cycle should have brought it to zero by now. It may be that your population of nitrifying bacteria just isn't big enough yet to handle the full load coming from your tap water plus your fish. However, with the water treatment what's there shouldn't hurt the fish. btw, be sure and read the prime instructions for protection from excess ammonia - my recollection is that it calls for double the dose but no more than that. I don't know what mixing the various treatment chemicals does to their effectiveness.

Nitrate above 10 ppm should be brought down, however the only way I can see that happening in a stable way IF there's still a lot of ammonia in your water source that is being converted is by adding plants which will use the nitrate.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

Sorry nitrate us 40ppm.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

So then it makes sense - the high ammonia going into the tank with your tap water has to go somewhere so of course it's going to make your nitrate levels higher as a result. You can change water frequently while adding something like Prime - which will dilute down the nitrate but which will also keep feeding ammonia to the nitrogen cycle, you can change water sources or get something that removes the water impurities or you can add a bunch of plants. I can't think of any other solutions to a situation where you're starting with ammonia additions. (the above assumes that you aren't over feeding and adding lots of ammonia that way).


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

That makes sense. I don't believe I'm over feeding. Usually once a day. They act like I'm starving them. But I believe my feeding is one thing done right. Maybe I'll try a plant. Might get a purifier. I know levels were much better when I tested the fridge water. But I can't stand at the fridge all day for a wc.


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## FishDad (Jan 8, 2013)

Don't mix them chems. Less is more. If you have prime then only use prime. By the way ammonia binders smell like sulfer. Yael, I really don't think the problem is the ammonia added from the tap. He is detoxing it and the BB can still feed from detoxed ammonia, so the added ammonia can't really hurt the growth of bb. The problem is his tank hasn't had the chance to grow a sufficient amount of bb yet. Jas when you add ammonia detox chems they must be done in conjuction with daily water changes or after a few days the binder will unbind and ammonia will spike to toxic levels. I think you are in a persistent mini cycle state - you removed carbon filter which likely had bb growing on it and replaced it with brand new bio media that has zero bb growth. For a fairly new tank that is having trouble processing ammonia in the first place that will definitly set you back some. When I started my 125g I started it with one established filter and one new filter and still went through a mini cycle. My "from the tap" water is the same as yours and I have no plants... everything is fine now. It just needs time with out upset.

Remember...
- a cycled tank will process tap water ammonia levels and fish wont be affected so long as you detox it.
- you can't detox ammonia and let it sit for a week and not expect ammonia to spike
- you can't replace filter media in a (for all intense and purposes) brand new tank and expect not to have a mini cycle
- Your not the only person who has a fish tank in your area. Your tap water is fine.
- As long as you are detoxing ammonia you will NEVER get an accurate reading of toxic ammonia with your test kit


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

Fishdad - that wasn't my point. I know that the bound ammonia can still be processed. The concern is that he's at 40ppm nitrate. He wouldn't be at that high a level of nitrate after a large water change if he wasn't adding so much ammonia at the front end of the cycle and he wouldn't have high nitrate if his nitrifying bacteria weren't working.

Ammonia in = nitrate out. If it's not coming from overfeeding then it's coming from tap water (assuming no dead fish or something else fouling things). With a high input of ammonia he's going to have to do lots of water changes to keep up with his need to lower nitrates. Thus my recommendations. New water source or something that removes the ammonia from the tap water or a bunch of plants to use up the nitrates.


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## FishDad (Jan 8, 2013)

No, I'm sorry but your forgetting about nitrites, which are not present at all according to his test. That means there is no bacteria to processs the ammonia to nitrite, which then needs bacteria to turn into nitrates. If too much ammonia was the problem, and the tank is cycled, then too much nitrites would also be a problem. Since there are none to be found then the tank is obviously not cycled. The detectable nitrate must be comming from the tap. Read this article to back up what I am telling you - http://freshaquarium.about.com/od/water ... trates.htm

Tap water can contain nitrates of up to 40ppm. Aquarium cycles never skip the nitrite cycle. It is impossible. Ammonia at the front end will not hurt the cycle, it will help it. The heavier the ammonia, the heavier the bacteria colony. That is how you do a fishless cycle. You would be correct to say Ammonia in, turns into Nitrite, then into Nitrate.

Just to be clear Yael, it is very possible and likely that nitrates can register at 40ppm with out any cycle occuring.


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## FishDad (Jan 8, 2013)

His tank just need time to cycle, with undisturbed filter media and daily water changes.


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## Asami (Aug 9, 2011)

Get the API master kit from amazon it's like 17 bucks with Prime you can have it by Friday. Completely worth it and you will have it for quite a while. That 17 dollars will tell you a lot about your tank as far as water parameters and you don't have to run to the lfs each time you want to test. In my mind it's a no-brainer for a fishkeeper to ALWAYS have one on hand for the health of your investment.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

Asami - I have been using the API test kit and recently got prime. ( I think that was page two)


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

Fishdad - I don't believe that his cycle isn't working nor that he'd have a high nitrite necessarily since nitrite conversion tends to be fast compared to ammonia. In other words, it' isn't the conversion of nitrite that is limiting in the process. His tank IS converting ammonia so if it was his cycle that was a problem he would see a nitrite spike. Any biochemical cascade has rate limiting steps so once normal bacteria are established it would be odd to have the middle step of the cascade show a high product/output. If his tap water doesn't have nitrate in it then just where is it coming from if not from the bacteria that convert the nitrite to nitrate?


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## FishDad (Jan 8, 2013)

I bet it does have nitrate in it. Only Jas can confirm that however. The fact of the matter is his tank has all the classic symptoms of new tank syndrom. So far we have zero evidence that his tank is converting ammonia, as you say. Ammonia w/o nitrite is a pretty good clue that it is not, since in the early stages of cycling it aways is. At no point did Jas ever detect any nitrite. I have cycled many tanks and always get to a point at which nitrite is detectable. And high nitrate in tap water is typical. Google it, everyone has nitrate in there tap. If you go back the the first page of this topic, the first two post diagnosed it as not cycled. Then if you read on Jas claims he was registering ammonia with out any fish in the tank, how can that be? Well as myself and another already said, he was likely detecting chloramine. Put plainly, he didn't accomplish a tankless cycle, recieved bad advice from the lfs and added fish too soon. Ammonia spiked and the fish started flashing. We've all been there. Jas, just keep up regular water changes and detoxes and your fish will be fine. You've already said the flashing has subsided... is that not a sign of progress? If there was something wrong with the water, they would still be flashing badly or have died already. Do not forget that this is a hobby of patience.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

His tank ammonia is lower by a lot than his tap water. His tank is converting ammonia. Since he isn't seeing nitrite where did all that converted ammonia go?

And my tap water registers zero nitrate. It's city water and it also registers zero ammonia.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

I must have some bad water. Tastes good though. I'm glad you two, yael and fishdad are debating this. As I said before both have great advice and I DO appreciate the time you have taken on me. I have faith this will all work out. Will be getting a cheap purifier for my downstairs faucet though. I do think that my water has something if only a little to do with it. And my bad on taking out the carbon. I didn't think it would have contained b bacteria.


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

FishDad said:


> No, I'm sorry but your forgetting about nitrites, which are not present at all according to his test. That means there is no bacteria to processs the ammonia to nitrite, which then needs bacteria to turn into nitrates.


The reason why nitrites are not being detected is because the ammonia is being converted to nitrite, which in turn converts to nitrate. The nitrite doesn't "hang around" for long enough to be detected by the test kit. His tank is cycled.


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

FishDad said:


> At no point did Jas ever detect any nitrite. I have cycled many tanks and always get to a point at which nitrite is detectable.


It is possible to not have a nitrite spike during the cycle, especially if you add a bacterial additive like Tetra SafeStart.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

Fyi I never mentioned but I did add a bacterial supplement. Not tetra but top fin I think.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

And I regret not finding this website sooner. As I said during cycle I was relying on lfs for water parameters. Had I been doing it myself I probably would have a better result and I would also have an answer to whether my tank was properly cycled. All that to save $22. Money well spent and lesson learned.


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## FishDad (Jan 8, 2013)

I didn't say spike, I said detect. And based on the symptoms of the fish and the tank being so new its likely the most common issue in fish keeping... new tank syndrome. Also bacteria suppliments are commonly regarded as useless by alot of people in the hobby. I wouldn't use them, unless you purchase one that comes refrigerated, I forget the brand name. Metricliman you are supposed to detect nitrite at some point in the process even Yael said he detected in in his cycle in an earlier post. This article by duke university about the nitrogen cycle completely refutes what you claim http://www.cs.duke.edu/~narten/faq/cycling.html

Nitrite MUST reach a detectable level for the cycle to complete.

You should detect nitrite around day 25 if cycling properly. The seriously high ammonia reading of Jas' tap is strange. Technically thats not legal. I would recommend another test of the tap for ammonia and nitrates. Yael, the fact that your tap doesn't test for ammonia just means that your city uses chlorine. And as far as the nitrate is concerned its rare but mayby you are one of the lucky ones. Nitrate naturally occures in the soil and since most water with soil at some point, most people have it.

Also the api test for nitrate is extremely touchy. Its very easy to get false readings.


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

It's possible when seeding or using an additive, to see either no ammonia, or no nitrite spike (or both as a best case result) and still effectively cycle the tank (once both ammonia and nitrite are being converted). In the first instance, you would have sufficient ammonia oxidizing bacteria but insufficient nitrite oxidizing bacteria. Opposite scenario for the second instance.


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## FishDad (Jan 8, 2013)

Yes, I could see that in a situation where you use already established filter media but I seriously doubt a bacteria additive could cycle a 55g tank on its own


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

He did a fishless cycle AND ran the tank with test fish AND added bacterial additive. I can attest to the help that bacterial additive has since my first tank cycled in less then two weeks with it. More importantly, his tank is converting ammonia and it's making nitrate.


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## FishDad (Jan 8, 2013)

He did a fishless cycle with what though? You can't just keep water in a tank for a month. I have used bacteria additive as well and its bunk. You can check these forums if you want, most people find it useless. Going on two months now his tank is probably converting some ammonia but obviously not efficiently enough yet because he is still detecting ammonia a week after a water change. Even at very high levels the bacteria can process just about all the ammonia in a few hours. Unless his filter isn't sufficient. You can't say for certain about the nitrate because we don't know what it is going into the tank. As far as the ammonia going into the tank, as far as we know he tested the water from the tap and the fridge and got drastically different results. That means one of two things, he either botched one of the test which happens alot, or he has a RO filter attached to his fridge. A simple carbon filter won't remove ammonia.

You should not rule out the most common problem in fish keeping with out more information. More water test. As i said before only Jas can confirm these things for us. I think to suggest that his water changes are harming the fish is very premature. Test the tap again, test the fridge tap also. I would test them twice to confirm. Test for ammonia and nitrate. When you test for nitrate you must follow the directions very, very closely.

Another question that I have is if I'm wrong and the problem is water going into the tank, then why has the flashing gotten better?


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

FishDad I get where you are coming from, and without more info from the OP it's hard to say. You admit yourself that the tank seems to be processing "some" ammonia, but there is no indication of nitrite at this point. So where do you think this converted ammonia is going if not to nitrite?


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

I will be doing a water change either tonight or tomorrow,which will be 5 or 6 days after my last. I will test all parameters before and after. I will also retest tap for ammonia and nitrate. I believe all this will give a clearer idea of what's going on. And I did add ammonia to original cycle, not much and per lfs, younger guy not owner so I have to say he left out a BUNCH of stuff when he told me about it. I only added once. About 5 ml . Sorry never said that before.


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## FishDad (Jan 8, 2013)

I only say it has to be processing some ammonia because it has been two months and bacteria has to grow at some point. But if you read back I think to page two, his ammonia from the fridge tap was almost equal to the ammonia in his tank, .05 difference. That is why I think the reading from his regular tap of 2.0 is faulty.. unless he has a RO filter. I'm not sure how common that is for a fridge but answering that question is paramount to the issue of water going into the tank. If his fridge only has a carbon filter then one of the test is wrong. And to answer your question, I do not think there is sufficient evidence that his tank is converting ammonia, at least in the quantaties expected of a cycled tank. I say that because the ammonia from the fridge and in the tank after one week are almost identical, at no point was nitrite ever detected, and it is fairly common for nitrate from the tap to reach levels of 40ppm. You just claim "well he has high nitrate so the tank must be cycled" if you have no test confirming what the nitrate is comming from the tap.

Further because it appears that in his month-long fishless cycle he only had ammonia added once, it is safe to conclude that his bb starved. It should be assumed that his tank didn't start cycling until he added the danios. Danios can survive high ammonia levels and it wasn't until he started adding more fish that the flashing issues occured.

In summation (always wanted to say that) to say for certain that the issue is bad water is something that can not be proven yet and should not be assumed, and it is far more likely that his tank is simply still cycling, its not that old. Also don't forget he removed some of the filter media and replaced it with fresh media.

Plus my question still remains... If not cycling then why are the fish getting better?


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## b3w4r3 (Dec 14, 2012)

I'm just going by what the OP has said. On page 2 he tested 10 to 20ppm nitrate. Later he said the new nitrate reading was 40ppm. Maybe he did the test wrong the first time, we can't know at this point. It would be helpful to test the tap water for nitrate so we know more.

As far as his fish getting better how could this happen without a reduction in ammonia? Maybe it's possible that his original dosing of 5ml ammonia never got converted, and was still present when he added his fish. Then again with the fish he has now having been in the tank for at least a couple weeks now, if ammonia is not getting converted at all, I would expect to see higher tank readings than .15ppm

Now that he has gone 5 days without changing water I expect these next test results will answer some of the questions.


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## FishDad (Jan 8, 2013)

They will. I would bet ammonia is getting converted on some level, just not at a level to support the full bio load, which as we all know takes time. I don't think the ammonia would sit in his tank for a month w/o being converted. It probably was. But he didn't keep it up and the bacteria likely starved.

But think of it this way...

If his ammonia is high going into the tank, and he detoxes everything correctly, his bact. will grow to support it. It is still just a matter if cycling... just a matter of waiting for the bio load to equalize. High ammonia going into the tank if detoxed isn't really much of an issue as long as water changes are regular. As I said before, given enough time the bacteria will catch up, ie cycling.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

The only reading he had in the 'danger zone' the last time he tested was his 40 ppm of nitrate. He's going to have to keep battling that high nitrate if all he's doing is changing water since it's coming from the ammonia he's adding to his tank from his high tap reading as well as from his fish. He'll be continually doing very frequent water changes if that's all he does to combat the problem. That's why I suggested plants.


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## FishDad (Jan 8, 2013)

Yes but the nitrates typically wouldn't be causing the flashing, as per the OP. I have never had extreme levels of nitrates but what I have read on the issue claims your fish will typically act sluggish, hovering near the surface and that is at levels way, way above 40ppm. Some people actually consider 40ppm to be normal, I wouldn't be comfortable with that but to each his own. The flashing was likely caused from ammonia that unbound itself after a few days and wasn't being converted. The detox just delayed the symptoms of high ammonia. Some of which likely was converted but it only takes a little bit to cause flashing. And if you have any amount of ammonia in your tank after a few days its either not fully cycled or not properly filtered, which I believe were the first two diagnonis on this thread. And since the fish are getting better, its likely not the latter.

And weekly water changes at 50% should be plenty to deal with high nitrates. In my opinion you should do 50% weekly anyway. I know people who do more.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

My fish do some flashing just from a water change - no ammonia involved. Like I said a while back, when I first saw them flashing I was concerned enough to start making daily or every two day changes and when I stopped that, they stopped flashing - still, today when I did a water change my male lab flashed a few times from it. I think they flash whenever there's any change in the water chemistry at all. Even when it's a change for the better.


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## FishDad (Jan 8, 2013)

I agree. Mine do the same. But his flashed with detectable ammonia. When his tank is done cycling it won't be an issue.


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## metricliman (Sep 3, 2012)

FishDad said:


> Nitrite MUST reach a detectable level for the cycle to complete.


Really? Then how come I cycled a ten gallon with no nitrite spike?


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

When the lfs checked his ammonia it was at zero, it was only shortly after a water change that he was detecting ammonia and even so, it was much lower levels than his tap water (not his fridge tap which is filtered but out of his faucet). I don't think the fish were flashing because of an uncycled tank. The only tank ammonia he has ever detected was at 0.25 - not nothing but not enough to make a difference specially since he was using ammonialock.


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## FishDad (Jan 8, 2013)

Metricliman, saying that you have to detect nitrite to verify a cycle is not really an epiphany in the fish keeping world. Ten gallons cycle so fast you probably just missed what ever time period you would have detected it at. Plus it depends of how you cycled it, for instance if you used established media from another tank then the nitrite spike would be minimal. But to debate whether a nitrite spike is part of the cycle of a fish tank is, well start another thread I suppose. I'd be happy to debate it there.

Yael, you obviously know alot about fish keeping and I think this debate is a good one as well as fun. And I don't want to come off as contemptuous when I say I think you are putting to much faith is certain things. Such as LFS test strips... when I first got into this hobby I used to rely on lfs test as well and they were, I found consistently dead wrong. I won't bore you with examples but my faith in lfs tests is zero. Also you have to admit something is drastically wrong with the test results from his tap water. He has not told us if he has a RO filter or not - that goes to the very heart of what you are saying. If he does have one on his fridge, then you are right he is adding alot of ammonia from his tap. But even if he is you have to consider it a real possibility that his tank is not done cycling. Its not that crazy for all the reason well hashed over. Also the fact still remains that a cycled tank will process high ammonia levels down to zero in hours - his tank did not.


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

This is getting interesting. Should I make u wait.... test results just now - ammonia 0 - nitrites 0 - nitrates .40ppm (tested am,nitrates twice) and the tap - ammonia 1.5ppm - nitrates .5ppm (I also tested ammonia twice because the difference in earlier test.exact same both.) Now to add suspense. I have not done water change yet. If I have time tonight I will. (? Ro filter in fridge, no. I don't think. Feel dumb now. Looks like a carbon filter to me. Was that the question? )


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)




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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

thats what I say yael. I thoroughly enjoyed learning from this surprising very long topic that started about itchy fish. I now fully understand water parameters! My theory is: I had insufficient bacteria and my questionable tap water made it harder for quick and proper ammonia conversions. I'm good with that but ill let you experts hash that out. Now,for my next question ... just kidding.


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

So how are you going to deal with the high nitrate? ;-)


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## jas1313 (Dec 3, 2012)

well. if im right about the bacteria then the ammonia will either not be a problem or will become less of a problem as my bacteria grows. the nitrate issue could be helped with weekly wc.? yes, no? would proper bb also help with nitrate? or you said plants. i could do an anubias (right?) or two maybe. would that small ammount help? or just act like i never saw the nitrate reading


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## Yael (Nov 25, 2012)

If you weren't adding ammonia with each water change then that would be the normal way of dealing with nitrate but since you are you're fighting an uphill battle trying to keep it on the lower side with water changes alone. Plants (and algae) use it so that helps. Prime helps to detoxify it. Filtering out the ammonia from your tap water also works. I like plants so that would be my choice.


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## FishDad (Jan 8, 2013)

So Jas' analsys is correct it was a cycling issue. He intitially had insuffecient bacteria. His tank wasn't done cycling as of last week. Now it appears it has happened. He is also correct that adding ammonia will not be a problem since his tank now has none in it. His bacteria colony grew to the sufficient number to process it, as expected. Nitrates won't be an issue either because after a week they are still at 40ppm. Like I said, it just needed time. The fish stopped flashing and ammonia progressively went down. It is cycled. Water going in is now a moot point.


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