# Established tank, higher ammonia



## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

Hello,

Brand new to the forum. My gf and i are having some issues i think with our tank. We have 7 baby cichlids. The biggest being a full inch, the rest are half inch roughly. 2 dwarf gouramis, and 2 rainbow sharks, about 1.5"s each. They are all in a 10 gallon currently. We have a 30 gallon but are waiting to set it up until we move the first week of July. We are moving from Maryland to Florida. Our lfs said we would be better to wait until we move and since everyone is so small its no big deal. Anyway, yesterday i tested the water, i didnt write down the results but they were about the same as what i got today. Ammonia between 1.0-2.0. It was hard to decide on the color. Nitrate was 40ppm at most. Nitrite was 0. Ph was about 7.2. I tested our tap water too, ph is about 7.6, could be higher but i only tested low range. Ammonia is about 0 coming out of the tap. So i figure the ammonia is due to having so many fish. My lfs and research said cichlids are good to overstock so to keep aggression down, so thats what we did. We are hoping that when we seperate them from the community and in to the 30 they stay nice. Anyway, the api test kit recommends ammo-carb or ammo-chips. I read online amquel. I should point out that yesterday i vaccumed the gravel which resulted in a serious water change. Id filled up our 1 gallon jug about 3 times id say. I used prime when put the new water in. Comes in a red bottle. I cleaned all the decorations in the tank by running them under hot water(plants and rocks). Then last night we added an air stone. The water is crystal clear, everyones swimming, eating(once a day). *** cut down on the amount i feed. The filter was changed a week ago. All the cichlids were added this past week.. 2 monday, 4 tuesday, 1 wednesday. The tank has been running since the end of march. Last weekend(pre cichlids) we had 0 ammonia or atleast petsmart said all out levels were good. We bought the test kit thursday and have been testing since. Im not sure if i should do daily or every other day water changes, 10%, 20%, and if i should get any additives.


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## ratbones86 (Jun 29, 2012)

Do a 50% wc then check it the next day and see if that helps.


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

Even after yesterdays big water change? Do that today? How soon should i check after?


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## ratbones86 (Jun 29, 2012)

I would then edit a day and check the levels again. You have a lot of fish in there what kind if filtration you running on it? Could be your problem.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

To verify, yesterday you changed 30% of the water. Before and after the change the test results were the same: ammonia 1-2 and nitrate=40.

That should not be possible. After a 30% water change, both ammonia and nitrate should be 30% lower.

Next steps: I agree with a 50% water change right away. Test right after the change. Test for pH using the high range test. Ammonia and nitrate. But also test for nitrite.

Ongoing don't change the filter (rinse in tank water only) and don't clean decor/rocks with hot water. They all contain beneficial bacteria that will "eat" your ammonia and nitrate and remove toxins from your tank.

What are the 7 cichlids and are they all 1.5" or less as well?


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

Its the top fin 10 gallon starter kit setup. Its a top find filter, 3 stage, im not sure if the exact water flow but i have no doubt its not enough. For the 30 we bought the aquaclear 70. We were told instead of running 2 filters just get the bigger one. Figured it will also work when/if we upgrade to a 55.

So no chemicals and wait to change the water until tomorrow?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would change the water now and probably you will have to again tomorrow. No chemicals should be necessary other than dechlorinator. You want to keep your ammonia under 1ppm at all times.

How did you cycle the tank?


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

The cichlids are:

Convict 3/4"
Yellow lab 3/4"
Red zebra 1/2"
Jewel 3/4"
Powder blue 3/4"
Acei 1"
And i wanna say the last little guy is a kenyi hes maybe 1/2" but the smallest in there.

Yes, yesterday i sucked out atleast 30% of the water. The levels did drop i think, but not to 0. The colors showed somewhat still high. Didnt seem very significant i should say.


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

We started with 2 mollies and and 1 gourami. Then 4 little 1/4" tetras. The mollies died after a couple weeks, the tetras lasted 1 night. The gourami is still going. After letting the tank cycle we added the 2nd gourami, then 2 rainbow sharks, then 8 ghost shrimp. The shrimp are all gone now, they slowly got eaten, 2 fed to the oscar i had for a day. The cichlids finished off the last 2 or 3 shrimp once they arrived.


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

Just did the 50% water change and added 1ml of prime as per the directions.

How soon should i test?


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

Just checked the ammonia. Its .50 ppm. So it went down for sure. How long will that last is the question. Even if i do another water change tomorrow, like 10-20%. Am i going to have to do them daily? If so im thinkin it may be a better idea to just set up the 30g now.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

What is the nitrite and nitrate?

Your tank may not have been completely cycled, or maybe it is having a mini-cycle. I don't see how setting up the 30G is going to make that better, but it won't hurt.

You may need to do 50% or more daily to keep things under control. We will know more when you post the rest of the test results. Getting the ammonia down to 0.5ppm is great given where it was before.


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

We just tested everything again.

Ammonia was .5ppm
Ph 7.2
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

I wasnt sure if setting up the 30 would be better. My understanding is my ammonia is up because of the amount of fish in the 10. Setting up the 30 sooner would get the fish split up quicker. If i have to do big water changes every day until i get the 30 going and stable may as well make it sooner right? Dont water changes stress the fish out because your invading and shrinking their home around them?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I think that fish load should be OK in a 10G for a few weeks. I think your tank is not cycled (lots of beneficial bacteria growing well on the filter media and tank surfaces), and when you changed the filter and scrubbed the decor in hot water, you killed off or removed too much beneficial bacteria. It needs a chance to grow back. I'd stick with the 10G since there is still SOME beneficial bacteria on the remaining untouched surfaces.

What are your test results this morning, 12 hours after you tested last?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I do not believe you will make it until July with that mix in that tank, and in the long run, that mix isn't going to work in any tank long term. A 30G will definitely NOT be large enough to hold all of that personality. The poor gouramis don't stand a chance as the other fish begin to mature, and that will happen sooner than you think. Your only chance at success is to get a large enough tank to provide proper territories for the species you have, and even then, the gouramis shouldn't be included. I know this isn't your question, but we usually want long term success when we set up and tank, and you should be aware of the improbability of this mix working in a 30G tank.

A 10G with that many fish is very difficult to judge on feeding, so this may be part of your problem. How many times a day are you feeding? How long does it take the fish to consume the food?

They are going to produce alot more waste than your filter can handle. It's not a great filter system, the tank is too small, and the odds are against you. Add these stressors in with the move ahead, and it's not a good scenario.

These are all things you need to consider.


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

Ammonia seems to be the same at .5, nitrates between 10-20, and nitries seem to be a 0


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

cichlidaholic said:


> I do not believe you will make it until July with that mix in that tank, and in the long run, that mix isn't going to work in any tank long term. A 30G will definitely NOT be large enough to hold all of that personality. The poor gouramis don't stand a chance as the other fish begin to mature, and that will happen sooner than you think. Your only chance at success is to get a large enough tank to provide proper territories for the species you have, and even then, the gouramis shouldn't be included. I know this isn't your question, but we usually want long term success when we set up and tank, and you should be aware of the improbability of this mix working in a 30G tank.
> 
> A 10G with that many fish is very difficult to judge on feeding, so this may be part of your problem. How many times a day are you feeding? How long does it take the fish to consume the food?
> 
> ...


When we get the 30 up and stable only the 7 cichlids were going to be in it.

We feed the once per day, very little now. The little bit we started feeding since friday they have gone in about 30 seconds.


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

As far as the fish. Doing all my research i found that cichlids are better overstocked. That will keep aggression down. Also getting them very young and letting them grow together will as well. Even the people at a few of our lfs's said the same thing. The one cichlid expert told us that we could go up to 10 in the 30. As long as we dont get ones the grow big like an Oscar. All the species we bought should grow to 6" at the most. A few of them are only supposed to get 4".


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Oh absolutely these fish will not fit a 30G...some of them need a 48" x 18" tank minimum. I do disagree with your LFS. Even in a 75G they would have to be all-male to have a chance. And the yellow lab and male kenyi are look-alikes so I would lose the kenyi.

Convict 3/4"
Yellow lab 3/4"
Red zebra 1/2"
Jewel 3/4"
Powder blue 3/4"
Acei 1"
And i wanna say the last little guy is a kenyi hes maybe 1/2" but the smallest in there.

Also your test readings today do not make sense. Your nitrates should stay the same or increase...never decrease unless you changed water. Maybe they are still 20ppm.


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

DJRansome said:


> Oh absolutely these fish will not fit a 30G...some of them need a 48" x 18" tank minimum. I do disagree with your LFS. Even in a 75G they would have to be all-male to have a chance. And the yellow lab and male kenyi are look-alikes so I would lose the kenyi.
> 
> Convict 3/4"
> Yellow lab 3/4"
> ...


We have done water changes. Im fact we did another one last night. According to my gf, ammonia is down to about .25, and nitrates were at 20 last night. Right now im checking everything. Ammonia seems about .25, nitrates are between 20-40. Nitrites look like they are going to be zero again.

Last nights 50% water change was mainly to get some water into the 30 we are setting up now. Bringing ammonia down to .25 isnt bad though.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'd keep doing daily. Your ideal for nitrate is 10ppm after the water change. When it gets to 20ppm that's a signal that it's time to change.


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

Roger that, will keep changing the water daily.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Test every day to ensure your ammonia is < 0.5 and your nitrate is < 20ppm and nitrite is 0.

What are you going to do about the stock in the 30G?


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

I set up the 30g sunday night, monday night put 2 mollies in it, had to add the jewel bc she was being mean to everyone so she got the timeout. Petsmart tested the water for the 30 monday and it was good. I tested yesterday and all levels were good. 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 10 nitrates. Im about to test the water in a few. Last night it got super clear. Once the tank is cycled ill take the mollies out and put the 6 other cichlids in.

To set it up we used 5 gallons of water from the 10, 4 plants(fake), and soaked the filter for the 30 in the 10 for about 2 hours.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

apollo240 said:


> soaked the filter for the 30 in the 10 for about 2 hours.


That's not going to do much. Why not put the 10G "established" filter on the 30G alongside the new filter for the 30G? It will take about 2 weeks running side-by-side to establish the new filter.

Using water from the 10G won't help the bacteria either because the bacteria don't swim freely in the water. The plants will have some bacteria. What about putting the substrate from the 10G in the 30G as well?

Are you considering changing your stock to fish that will fit better in a 30G tank? What are the dimensions? I have 33G tanks that are 48" long...maybe yours is 48"?


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

I would put the filter in with it but then what about the 10 gallon? It needs all it can get with its current stock lol.

The dimensions are 30"x12x18" or 18.5?

Ill be putting the acei, convict, powder blue, yellow lab, kenyi(i think), red zebra(i think), and the jewel. I think that will do it for the tank. Our lfs said we could do 10 as long as we kept them to ones that get no larger than 6". That keeps it at 2" per gallon rule which is what they and my research recommeded for cichlids. Supposed to keep aggression down since they cant get territory.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I thought the 10G would be retired. It seems like you will be fighting the cycle-battle with 2 tanks instead of one.

Well, I disagree with your LFS. The inch/gallon rule does not apply to Africans from the Rift Lakes...each male wants to claim a territory...some individuals will be happy with a square foot whereas some want three square feet. So you can see why a 48" tank can house 3 species and a 30" tank can house 1 species. True you want to overstock, but for a 30" tank the correct level of overstocking would be 4-6 small timid fish, ideally of the same species.

The Acei is not small. The power blue (socolofi) is not small or timid. A species tank with 1m:4f yellow labs would work. Red zebra (Metriaclima estherae) is not small or timid.

It would also make a nice species tank for a pair of jewels.

Best of luck to you with your tanks! :thumb:


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## apollo240 (May 16, 2013)

Well the 10 seems to be getting easier since we pulled the tetras out, the jewel out. Today ammonia was still at .25 from 2 days agos water change. I still did 30-40% change. Im hoping once the cichlids are seperated and the 10 has only the gouramis, mollies, tetras, and rainbow sharks, it will be ok. Thats also assuming the mollies survive the cycle of the 30.

Believe me...im working to try and get a 55 after we move. She just doesnt realize it yet lol.


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