# Mbuna tank build help needed



## iamV1shnu (May 27, 2021)

Hi everyone , 
Planning to start a 4ft tank for mbunas. Need help related to few questions i have related to this setup .

1. I have decided the length to be 48 and depth as 21 inches but cant decide on the height, stuck between 18 or 21 inches. will the extra inches really matter ? I would prefer having 75g instead of a 90g. 
2. Planning to get two canister filters. One will be 2000lph and other will be 1400lph. Or can i get away with a smaller second filter at 1000lph. Filters will be sunsun hw 30x series.
3. Planned stocking will be 21 demasoni , 8 yellow labs. Is the stocking alright ? Or can i add a third species ( suggestion ) ?
4. M:F ratio for the stocking planned and buying them as adults or juvenile?


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## SenorStrum (Aug 14, 2020)

I actually asked the question about Tank Height and Mbuna a few weeks ago. Especially after hearing the responses from other members, I would get the taller tank.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

In a tank that size I would shoot for 15 demasoni and 5 yellow labs after removing extra males. Demasoni are a troublesome mbuna to keep so be sure you are determined to do the extra work, not just looking for a nice zen fish tank.

The most reputable vendors seldom sell mbuna sexed so plan on getting extra unsexed juveniles (to try for a large number of females) and allow for the need to rehome some fish. 

Ideal would be 3m:12f demasoni and 1m:4f labs.


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Jeeeze man. Everyone sees these things, and just flat out wants to keep them in an aquarium.








_Pseudotropheus demasoni_
I mean, I totally understand that. Because honestly, they're just absolutely beautiful! But unfortunately, DEATH is all too often a symptom of problems for this species, when the 'troubles' invariably start in a group. High intensity aggression, over-the top stress (for the aquarium-keeper also!), and a colony of fish that are seemingly always perched right on the edge of disaster.
I strongly believe that these are a marginal species at best for keeping in an aquarium. When the cumulative failure rate of keeping these things is factored in, it seems that just about EVERYONE fails their first attempt. And failure? Can be an epically BAD event, esp. if you are fairly new to keeping Cichlids.
It's painful to see just about all them in a group..... die.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I was/am one of those stubborn people and they have been by far the source of more problems than any of the dozens of other African species I have kept.


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## Haplochromine guy (Jun 4, 2020)

Please note that I am not an expert on filtration, therefore, please do not ask me about anything concerning filtration. I would keep a shorter tank if confronted with this scenario. The reason being is that Mbuna are rock dwellers and would probably be better off not having to venture very far from their rocks. I personally think DJ Ransome has the bright idea concerning stocking ratios. My recommendation though, is that you provide 8 females per two males. Do not consider 4 females to one male, but rather 6 females per one male.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Two males can be a mistake...usually one or three work better.


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## iamV1shnu (May 27, 2021)

Thanks everyone, the main reason behind Demasoni is that it is readily available with breeders around me and they seem to sell sexed fishes, probably adult ones. And they are very beautiful 😬. I like the concept of having a bigger group of fishes than having just single male peacocks per species.

I wanted to create a colourful tank ,I looked at saulosi but only one or two males are brightly coloured and rest are pale.

I am open to recommendation , what do u guys think Would be a good mix with some contrasting colours.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I misread originally thought this was 48x12 but I see you have 48x18. You can get the same colors with 1m:7f cyaneorhabdos maingano and they will work in that size with yellow labs. You could then add a group of 5 acei to finish the tank.


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## iamV1shnu (May 27, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> I misread originally thought this was 48x12 but I see you have 48x18. You can get the same colors with 1m:7f cyaneorhabdos maingano and they will work in that size with yellow labs. You could then add a group of 5 acei to finish the tank.


I would like maingano but they are very rare here and almost impossible to find. They only sell johannii here.


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## SenorStrum (Aug 14, 2020)

I ordered all the fish I could not get locally when I stocked my tank. Interesting side note here - I had better luck and lower death in acclimation with the shipped fish vs. ones I purchased in person from the most reputable breeder and seller in the Pacific North West of the United States. 
Regarding sexing - I purchased many fish from a breeder who advertises "If you buy a *four fish colony*, you will get one Guaranteed Male and we will do our best to get you three females. If you buy a *six fish colony*, you will get one-two males and the rest females." I bought 4 6-fish colonies and 2 4-fish colonies, and they certainly came as described. 

@iamV1shnu, I know that this information will not help you, it's a comment more directed at my American friends who are trying to acquire sexed fish. 
How do the Johanni look where you are? In the US nearly all the Johanni are not very pure or pretty. They can best be described as Interruptus, in my experience. The bars are not solid and distinct any longer. I'm guessing that this may be one of the reasons that Maingano is so much more popular here. 
-Strum


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## iamV1shnu (May 27, 2021)

SenorStrum said:


> I ordered all the fish I could not get locally when I stocked my tank. Interesting side note here - I had better luck and lower death in acclimation with the shipped fish vs. ones I purchased in person from the most reputable breeder and seller in the Pacific North West of the United States.
> Regarding sexing - I purchased many fish from a breeder who advertises "If you buy a *four fish colony*, you will get one Guaranteed Male and we will do our best to get you three females. If you buy a *six fish colony*, you will get one-two males and the rest females." I bought 4 6-fish colonies and 2 4-fish colonies, and they certainly came as described.
> 
> @iamV1shnu, I know that this information will not help you, it's a comment more directed at my American friends who are trying to acquire sexed fish.
> ...


We do have good johanni’s here , but it all depends on the breeders. I have seen more not so good looking yellow labs than Johanna’s though 😬.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Maybe list what is available since it seems to be a short list?


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## iamV1shnu (May 27, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> Maybe list what is available since it seems to be a short list?



Sure adding the list 









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Image 62-CE854-F-311-B-4-F99-B175-66385-A32-E670 hosted in ImgBB




ibb.co












1-DB77878-EA5-D-4-CEC-A0-F2-D8-E2645386-EC


Image 1-DB77878-EA5-D-4-CEC-A0-F2-D8-E2645386-EC hosted in ImgBB




ibb.co


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## iamV1shnu (May 27, 2021)

So if I am to choose a 48x21x21 90G tank will this stocking work ?

5 Snow White 1:4 ( added first )
8 yellow lab 2:6
21 demasoni 3:18 ( added last )


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would do 15 demasoni after removing extra males, 5 labs and 5 albino socolori (if that is what you mean by snow white).


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## iamV1shnu (May 27, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> I would do 15 demasoni after removing extra males, 5 labs and 5 albino socolori (if that is what you mean by snow white).


 wow only 25 ? I thought I could keep around 30-35.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You could but I wouldn't. I tend toward a slice of the lake and away from the look of the goldfish feeder tank in the LFS. If it were not for the demasoni I would go for 20 mbuna in a 48" tank.

For 25 (if not demasoni) I like a 72" tank.


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## iamV1shnu (May 27, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> You could but I wouldn't. I tend toward a slice of the lake and away from the look of the goldfish feeder tank in the LFS. If it were not for the demasoni I would go for 20 mbuna in a 48" tank.
> 
> For 25 (if not demasoni) I like a 72" tank.


Yeah I get u , so if I can get sexed adults would u recommend them over juveniles? 

I really like more yellow than 5 , how much labs if I stick to them and demasoni only.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

10 labs. The labs have a decent chance to tolerate extra males. The demasoni will let you know what is OK with them...whether it ends up being 5 males or 3 males or 1 male.

I would buy unsexed juveniles. Usually that is all that is available from the reputable vendors and even very experienced people can make mistakes on sexing. Buying sexed adults is not worth it to avoid rehoming the occasional fish IMO.


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## iamV1shnu (May 27, 2021)

DJRansome said:


> 10 labs. The labs have a decent chance to tolerate extra males. The demasoni will let you know what is OK with them...whether it ends up being 5 males or 3 males or 1 male.
> 
> I would buy unsexed juveniles. Usually that is all that is available from the reputable vendors and even very experienced people can make mistakes on sexing. Buying sexed adults is not worth it to avoid rehoming the occasional fish IMO.


So how much should I buy each now ? As juvenile


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would buy 10 labs and take your chances. You can always raise a batch of fry if you need more females in a year.

I like to buy 2X (or more) as many females as I want to end up with for most mbuna including demasoni. In 6-12 months you will be able to sell the "adult" demasoni to the LFS for the wholesale price (about 1/3 of what they charge) for store credit if you have a good LFS.


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## iamV1shnu (May 27, 2021)

@DJRansome collected rocks locally and built this hardscape , Any suggestions?

Decided to go with a 48*21*18 tank ( feel the height will be correct with this hard scape, the tallest rock is at 10inch from base) .Tested water and PH is 7.4 -7.6 ( api test kit ), kh is 13 and gh is 12.

Initially tought of adding Argonite sand(40kg) but decided to cut cost and go with pool sand.

The rocks have few paint drops and cement drops along with some mud ( collected near a construction site, checked for fizzing and they did not fizz ) Planning to wash dip the rocks in hot water and then dip in 1:10 bleach water for 20 mins. Can I reuse the bleach solution to dip all the rocks at 20min interval ( don’t have a bigger bucket to dip them all at once? .

I will be rescaping my planted tank so will have a temporary tank with filter running for fishes , planning to use all the filter media for this 4ft tank. Can I add first group of 8 yellow labs the next day ? And 20 demasoni next week ?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would not use bleach. Scrub the paint/mud off with a wire brush.

Add all the fish at once. Yes...if you have established filter media that has been supporting 28 fish already, then add the fish when you add the media. Does your planted tank have 28 fish?


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## iamV1shnu (May 27, 2021)

I was told bleach kills all the parasites and other unwanted stuffs . And then use prime to get all the chlorine out. May I know Wat would the disadvantage of using a bleach dip ?

yes they have 28+ fish but are all tetras 1” - 1.5” may be.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Rocks are porous and might retain enough bleach to be a problem. Benefit is not worth the risk. Bleach without scrubbing will not remove paint or mud.

It might take several tetras to equal one yellow lab in bulk and bioload. Why not cycle with ammonia to get up to the fully estabished media you need?

If you decide to stock in groups...I would do a larger number initially and wait at least a month before adding any more. Maybe group of 15 at first and then 5 in one month and 5 a month after that? Don't forget to quarantine the last 2 groups for 3 weeks in a separate tank before adding.


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## iamV1shnu (May 27, 2021)

Understood so will skip bleach and use hot water from my geyser and soak it for 30 mins or so and then scrub off everything. 

Cycling with ammonia is possible by adding fish food but then again how to make sure it has enough bacteria to handle 28 fishes ?
In planted tank it is said to add 2ppm ammonia in bottle and see if it’s 0ppm in 24 hrs. But I am not clear on how u measure 2ppm ammonia from a bottle.

When u talk about 15 fishes are u referring to 8labs + 7dems ? Or 8labs + 15dems ? Or add 15dems first ?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Put the established media in the tank with no fish and add ammonia so the tank measures 2ppm. You experiment with how much to add...maybe in a separate 5G bucket...and then measure the ammonia in the tank. Don't add fish food...add ammonia.

If you go with the groups I would add 15 demasoni first.


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## iamV1shnu (May 27, 2021)

Will try to add in a bucket and see what amount gives 2ppm and then try to do the same in the tank.

any suggestions on the hard scape and is my water enough or should a Argonite substrate needed ?


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Totally understand your concern about sterilizing those rocks. You don't describe the area they were gathered from, but if the conditions there make you a little nervous about using them? You should definitely follow your instincts in cleaning those rocks.
But.... DO NOT use Household Bleach to disinfect/sterilize rocks! @DJRansome is completely right in that rocks are much more porous then you would think, and will retain all sorts of bad things in them, even after a lot of scrubbing and rinsing.
So, do you have access to this stuff where you live?








-
This product is inherently safe, and will just absolutely destroy harmful microorganisms. I would personally recommend that you get a large kettle, and just flat out BOIL those rocks for few minutes after scrubbing and rinsing them out first with the OxiClean and warm-hot water. You will probably need to do a few boiling 'loads' with the large kettle to ultimately sterilize all of them. But, that bit of extra work may be worth it to ensure your peace of mind, that you haven't unintentionally brought in something dangerous to your aquarium.
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And, with some separate input - you are also asking for some recommendations regarding your rock-scaping example?
I would personally add even more rocks to make that rock pile higher, if you are going to keep African Mbuna in the tank. Mbuna will sort of 'hug' the rocks when swimming and moving around normally. Having a higher rock pile will help to get your African Mbuna up higher into the water column of the aquarium.
I used differently shaped, coarse textured rocks called 'Mountain Lace', that were arranged and stacked up all the way up, to just beyond the water's surface in my tank. (With lights off in my own African Mbuna-themed aquarium, the Cichlids tended to follow the rock structure in swimming around, sometimes almost to the surface).


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## iamV1shnu (May 27, 2021)

Auballagh said:


> Totally understand your concern about sterilizing those rocks. You don't describe the area they were gathered from, but if the conditions there make you a little nervous about using them? You should definitely follow your instincts in cleaning those rocks.
> But.... DO NOT use Household Bleach to disinfect/sterilize rocks! @DJRansome is completely right in that rocks are much more porous then you would think, and will retain all sorts of bad things in them, even after a lot of scrubbing and rinsing.
> So, do you have access to this stuff where you live?
> View attachment 140332
> ...


Can I see ur tank images ?


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## Auballagh (Jan 29, 2003)

Sure!
Not sure how well these old picture things (2003!) will link over to a forum post from the C-F stored album stuff... So, if the linked picture doesn't come up, just click on my profile and then navigate down into the album section. The last 3 photos showing the Rena Filstar XP3 canister filter (w/inline Lifegard Aquatics heater!), the _Labeotropheus fulleborni_ female and lastly - the aquarium itself - will be located there.
So.....
2888a.jpg | Cichlid Fish Forum (cichlid-forum.com)
And, that is what big pieces of Mountain Lace Rock look like in a pretty tall aquarium (30" - 76 cm). It's good stuff! Kind of thin in profile thickness and with a lot of holes, you get a lot of rock and size in those without the overwhelming weight of a full-on landscaping boulder of approximately the same size.


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## iamV1shnu (May 27, 2021)

@DJRansome , Finally tank set up is complete ☺.


Tank size : 48*24*18(h) , 90 US gal
Filters: sunsun 304b and 303a
Light : looking for options 😐. Rgb or white/blue?. This is a temporary sunsun Ade series light.
Planned stocking: 20demasoni 5 yellow labs.

Started cycle with 5ppm ammonia two days back with seeded media in one filter. Yet to get any ammonia reduction or nitrite reading is this normal ? I expected cycle to atleast start by now since I added seeded bio media.

Another question is after the cycle is complete, how to go about adding the fish ? Should I stick with 15 dems first and then another 5 after two weeks and 5 yellow labs after that ? Will there be any aggression with the 5 dems that are added later or can I add all the dems together?.

Any suggestions are welcome.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If you added seeded biomedia you may never see ammonia or nitrate. The beneficial organisms are already handling the toxins. 

To test your tank's readiness, add ammonia until you get a 2ppm reading and then wait 24 hours. If the ammonia and nitrite are zero and nitrate is increasing, you are cycled.

Better to add all the fish at once.

The rocks look great and for peacocks or haps I would not change a thing. But for mbuna I would double or triple the rock.


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## iamV1shnu (May 27, 2021)

I am seeing only ammonia and no nitrite or nitrate that was my concern.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

For me it took a week to see even the ammonia and several more weeks to start seeing nitrite. You only see nitrate at the end...especially if your seeded media is minimal. Allow an average of six weeks.

Nitrate is produced by the organisms that grow toward the end of your cycle...this is how you can tell they are maturing...the production of nitrate.


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