# Breeding mbuna setup from the start!!



## coxy87 (Jul 1, 2010)

Hi all... I just recently bought two 4 foot tanks, one is 18x20 other is 18x18 both sit on a solid metal stand.
So here my plan nice and simple:

1. Setting up both tanks at the same time and fishless cycling both of them.
2. Starting with 1 species of mbuna's per tank to start off with.

So both tanks are completely empty and clean now.

First thing first I need to purchase substrate and filters for both tanks.

I just plan on using fine crushed coral sand, I understand crushed coral keeps the Ph at a stable level... Perhaps any better ideas on substrate?

And I also need to purchase canister filters for each tank.
I was thinking ehiem 2213 or 2217 or one of the fluvals.. Any suggestions or comments on which filter would suit my set up better would be great. Open to other filter suggestions aswell as I want to do this correctly. I have no idea how sump filters work so I think I will just keep it simple with canister or even hang on's.

Picture of the setup will be up soon. Thanks


----------



## natedgg (Apr 9, 2011)

So you have a 75g tank and a 65g tank. I would not use the 2213 on either of those. Go with the 2217, at least. I run an Eheim 2217 on my 55g tank, and it does a very nice job with 12 fish ranging from 1 inch to 3 inches right now. At 264 gph (if I recall), you'll only be turning over 3.5x your 75g and 4.0x your 65g. That is pushing it as it is for mbuna. You may want to run another small HOB, but the 2213 will not do.

No experience with fluval's, but I just looked up the 405 and it is rated at 340 gph. That might work nicely for you, and its the same price as the 2217.


----------



## JoelRHale (Apr 22, 2011)

Save yourself some money and buy pool filter sand instead if you're only buying crushed coral for it's buffeting capabilities. A substrate's ability to buffer your water is largely overrated. PFS is <$10 for 50lb in most cases and looks great.

Now if you just love the crushed coral look, go for it. But if you want to save some money, ~200lb of PFS (all the sand you'd need for both tanks) = ~40lb of any buffering substrate.


----------



## coxy87 (Jul 1, 2010)

I have been doing some research on here the past few days, and ill be going with the pool filter sand, when i go to a pool store what should i be asking for? is there any no no's with pool filter sand? is there black PFS?

I also just bought the Ehiem 2217 for the 65g and a Fluval 405, should be arriving in a couple of days. Can't wait 

thanks


----------



## JoelRHale (Apr 22, 2011)

Some PFS comes treated with chemicals to make it better at the job it was originally made for. So you definitely need to ask, ask again, check the bag, and ask a third time that what you're buying is natural and chemical free. And any PFS that's more than $10 for 50lb is most likely chemically treated and if it's not, it's a rip off.

I have never heard of black PFS. But a black background is really all you need to make your fish pop. I have PFS and live rock as decorations. The second I added the black background it was like I had new fish.


----------



## coxy87 (Jul 1, 2010)

ok thanks i will triple check, yes i will also be using a black background as i use it on my other tanks. im trying to get a photo up of the setup now.


----------



## newforestrob (Feb 1, 2010)

well.its too late now,but alls you need is a couple sponge filters and an air pump,with this set-up,youll have to put the canisters on the side,which will increase the footprint,that will hinder you from adding more tanks in the future,
if its not too late I would get the sponge filters or even hang ons


----------



## Jimring (Jan 30, 2011)

There seems to be two sides to this subject.
Only sponge filters, vs canister and HOB.

I've always thought of sponge filters as a supplement to other types of filtration, not a substitute.

But then, I'm kind of new at this.


----------



## coxy87 (Jul 1, 2010)

here a picture of the setup...
this is my first time trying to breed so i thought id just give it ago with new canisters.










why wont the picture come up??


----------



## JoelRHale (Apr 22, 2011)

It says your page can't be found. Try checking the URL again :thumb:


----------



## coxy87 (Jul 1, 2010)

still didnt come up :?


----------



## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Just open the pic in photobucket and click the code next to 'IMG Code'. It'll say 'copied'. Then paste that into a post as is.










Sponge filters work great as the only filtration if properly implemented. They're not 'supplemental' filters. You just have to get the right number and size and plenty of air flow. If you get into more tanks, then consider them along with a central air pump. Cheaper and eaiser to maintain than running canisters on a number of tanks.


----------



## coxy87 (Jul 1, 2010)




----------



## coxy87 (Jul 1, 2010)

thanks for that i got it... yeah if i decide to expand more i will definatley use the sponge filters and use my new canisters on my display tanks down the road....


----------



## JoelRHale (Apr 22, 2011)

Sorry I couldn't help better, photobucket and iPhone do not mix apparently. It's a nice setup though. I have a similar thing with a 55 and 40L but only the 55 is filled right now.


----------



## coxy87 (Jul 1, 2010)

No problem.. once the filters and PFS arrive i cant wait for the fishless cycling part (not)!
*** never tried fishless cycling but i guess i will give it a go...
i have read alot of threads so should be ok with it.. hopefully i can speed it up with substrate from my other tanks.


----------



## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

coxy87 said:


> No problem.. once the filters and PFS arrive i cant wait for the fishless cycling part (not)!
> I've never tried fishless cycling but i guess i will give it a go...
> i have read alot of threads so should be ok with it.. hopefully i can speed it up with substrate from my other tanks.


That's the key, seeding it. Otherwise, cycling takes a while and people tend to blame 'fishless cylcing' on that. Fishless or not, it takes the same amount of time. It's the seeding of the filters that speeds things up. Take some of that substrate and put it into a fine mesh bag and add it right to the canister with the biomedia. I've cycled this way in 7-10 days many times. Cycle to 1-2ppm, no more. Many articles recommend way too much ammonia. Do small water changes during the process to keep nitrite down (once ammonia drops and nitrite spikes, of course).


----------



## coxy87 (Jul 1, 2010)

with having both tanks to cycle should i try 2 different methods of seeding? one being the substrate and one perhaps sqeezing the sponge from my aqua clear 110 in the other tank? or is there another way from an established tank?


----------



## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

coxy87 said:


> with having both tanks to cycle should i try 2 different methods of seeding? one being the substrate and one perhaps sqeezing the sponge from my aqua clear 110 in the other tank? or is there another way from an established tank?


The best way would be to take clean biomedia from an established tank. Squeezins will just add mulm and mostly heterotrophic bacteria. Not what you want. It's hard to say in every case which method would be most effective each time. But, my money would be on the biomedia. If you have HOB's on the existing tanks, then take some of the filter media, be it sponge or pad or whatever, and use that. The idea that the muckier the better is a myth. It will probably work somewhat, but that's a somewhat hostile environment for the nitrifying bacteria. Upper layer substrate should work. It'd be interesting to see if there was any difference between upper layer substrate and a piece of filter media. There are too many variables to say which will work better. I've read that light will inhibit nitrifiers, but haven't found a study to verify that. If that's true, then upper layer substrate will be less effective for that reason. Some day I'm going to set up a bunch of small containers and test all this out. Just too little time at the moment. My gut feeling is that any differences you experience won't be significant. And be careful of drawing conclusions from one test. I've cycled tanks same way, side-by-side, and had cycle times vary more than I'd expect. Too many unknown variables involved oftentimes.


----------



## coxy87 (Jul 1, 2010)

as i am in Sydney Australia they dont sell pure ammonia anywhere, i have searched everywhere and everywhere online.... except for one place, could you check this out and see if it is the same stuff.

http://www.aquadiso.com/ammonchlor/ammo ... 00500.html

thanks shaun


----------



## ~matt~ (Apr 16, 2011)

lol, its pure ammonia just in a power form. Its designed specificaly for fishless cycling, *** used it before and had no problems with it


----------



## Chunkanese (Feb 4, 2011)

You would only need at very most 50 lb of sand in each tank. Thats more than enough. So 100 lb between the 2.


----------



## PortiaD (Mar 7, 2011)

You can order clear ammonia here, for $4.95 (plus S&H) http://www.thecleanteam.com/catalog_f.c ... n.addToken#


----------



## Anthraxx8500 (Feb 11, 2011)

just buy some cheap tetras... thats all *** ever done. that or buy the fast cycle bacteria culture stuff. i think its tetra brand quick start or something along that line.


----------



## coxy87 (Jul 1, 2010)

ok so heres an update...

Substrate cleaned and in, fluval 405 up and running, 300w heater set a few degrees higher than usual, 2 sponge filters running, substrate from a established tank in a pool sock is in, ammonia is added and tested yesterday at 3ppm..

what to do next for cycling?

and for the other tank i have just decided to run the ehiem 2217 on my display tank, how long untill i can move that over to the 65g and stock fish?


----------



## Bingo (Apr 19, 2011)

nice start. keep us updated.


----------



## ~matt~ (Apr 16, 2011)

> what to do next for cycling?


Test your ammonia levels every 2nd day or so and when you seen it start dropping test for nitrite and you will see a nitrite spike, pretty much once you have no nitrites your cycled, but double check it first by dosing ammonia to 2ppm and it should dissapear in 24hrs. while waiting for your nitrite to drop keep adding ammonia every 3 or 4 days yoou dont want to add to much because you dont want your nitrite to go over 5ppm.

Matt.


----------



## coxy87 (Jul 1, 2010)

ok thanks matt..... yeah i tested for nitrites and they are 0... so i just play the waiting game now..


----------



## coxy87 (Jul 1, 2010)

fishless cycle up date!!

It is day 13 and ammonia has dropped from 3ppm to about .30ppm.

Nitrites at 5ppm

What to do now guys??

thanks


----------



## Pizzle (May 24, 2011)

I think that 5 ppm nitrite is the highest that the API test kits go to. It could be higher than 5 ppm. When I did a fishless cycle a few months ago it seemed to me that when my nitrite was over 5 ppm my cycle seemed to stall. What I would do is a 50% water change to get your nitrite down to a lower level. I know that others on here will say that 50% change may disturb the bacteria that have already established. In that case you do a 25% change. I think that 50% is safe as long as you use a product to remove the chloramines first because the purpose of adding chloramine to municipal water supplies is to kill bacteria.


----------



## Pizzle (May 24, 2011)

I add the water treatment product to the bucket while the bucket is filling with tap water so that you can be sure that it is mixed before adding the new water to the aquarium.


----------



## coxy87 (Jul 1, 2010)

Ok so a 25% water change is what I'll do... I always de chlorinate tap water before adding to the tank, i use prime is that ok to use even though it says it removes ammonia? It's the only de-chlor I got.


----------



## Pizzle (May 24, 2011)

Prime is great. It is an all-in-one water treatment from what I understand. I use Amquel Plus in combination with Novaqua, but I am thinking of trying out prime when I run out because so many people on this site recommend it.


----------



## coxy87 (Jul 1, 2010)

So i added more ammonia to 3ppm after a 25% water change and tested 2 days later and ammonia back down to almost 0 but nitrite's still through the roof?

should a 50% water change be appropriate now or should i just wait and test in a few more days??


----------



## ~matt~ (Apr 16, 2011)

the more ammonia you add the higher your nitrites will go, do a water change and get your nitrites down to 2ppm, and i wouldent add no more then 1ppm of ammonia..


----------

