# nitrate mystery. . .



## psyber (Jan 7, 2009)

Checked the water in a tank the other day using the API freshwater test kit and noticed that the nitrates were sky-high, so I did a 50% change. Next day, same result & and another massive change. Following day, tested the tank and my tap water, saw that both were upwards of 40ppm :x . However, LFS tested water from the tank and said that nirate was at 0. This has happened repeatedly using 2 different test kits to test 3 tanks & neither kit is more than a year old. I've seen elsewhere that not shaking the bottles properly can lead to a false negative or but haven't seen any issues with false positives. Can I do something to improve the quality of the solution or should I just toss the set?


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## xalow (May 10, 2007)

Have you considered that maybe you were right and the LFS was wrong and your tests were correct?


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

I am guessing that your nitrates were just really high, sometimes those shades of red are hard to figure out.
The good thing is they are starting to drop, nitrates can be stubborn.
Don't ditch your kit as long as the date is good.

As for the LFS result of 0, I think that is wrong.
The bottles have to be shaken very well, especially bottle #2 or it will skew the result.
If the bottles aren't shaken vigorously your result will be much lower.

You can test for accuracy.
I did this because I was weary of the results I was getting.
If you start with 40 ppm nitrate and do a 50% water change it should drop to about 20ppm.
Do another 50% w/c and see if it drops accordingly.


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## frank1rizzo (Mar 14, 2005)

If your Nitrate is 0... something is wrong.

I would believe a really high reading over one that gives 0.

(Unless you have no fish, or an un-cycled tank)


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## Comic Sans (Apr 21, 2009)

I've had my water tested at the lfs once. they used strips... :roll:


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## mbargas (Apr 19, 2009)

psyber said:


> Checked the water in a tank the other day using the API freshwater test kit and noticed that the nitrates .......... Can I do something to improve the quality of the solution or should I just toss the set?


You could save yourself alot of time and effort by not checking it.

If you have a good lighting system with an established growth of plants or algae, the nitrates shouldn't be an issue.

I've know an outdoor aquculturalist in South Florida who actually adds fertilizer to his fish ponds to promote green water, which oxygenates and provides nutrition for the fry. I asked him if he was concerned about the nitrates that he was adding, and he basically told me that it was all a lot of nonsense. All of his fish were feeding and growing well.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Elevated levels of nitrate will kill fish. Nitrates should be removed via water changes and kept 
at 20ppm or below, if possible. The affect of nitrates is a long term one. It's kind of like 
second hand smoke. Some fish seem to be more sensitive than others. Keep checking, it's 
worth the effort.

Here's one study. There are many. Just Google it.

Just my .02


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## mbargas (Apr 19, 2009)

prov356 said:


> Elevated levels of nitrate will kill fish. Nitrates should be removed via water changes and kept
> at *20ppm* or below, if possible. The affect of nitrates is a long term one. It's kind of like
> second hand smoke. Some fish seem to be more sensitive than others. Keep checking, it's
> worth the effort.
> ...


Interesting article. I would think that you would want to keep it much lower than 20ppm, based on that article.

Having said that, if you have well established plant growth, such as hornwort, with good lighting the nitrates should be under control. If the fish are doing well, feeding, growing, breeding, and free of disease, I don't bother to check. If I think I might have a problem, I'll check it.

A 50% water change will only bring it down from 20 ppm to 10 ppm--still potentially toxic to the more sensitive fish. And what if your new water has other issues such as heavy metals or other substances. The plants will act as sponge for nitrogenous wastes and other substances.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> Interesting article. I would think that you would want to keep it much lower than 20ppm, based on that article.


I like to, but in all the reading I've done, it comes down to some species being more sensitive that others,
so hard to come up with a 'one size fits all' level to stay under. I throw out 20ppm because it seems 
to suit many species just fine.



> if you have well established plant growth, such as hornwort, with good lighting the nitrates should be under control.


Maybe yes, maybe no. Too many variables for it to be that simple. Wish it was  .



> If the fish are doing well, feeding, growing, breeding, and free of disease, I don't bother to check. If I think I might have a problem, I'll check it.


That works best for toxins that are more lethal like ammonia and nitrite. Nitrate damage is much more 
from long term exposure. By the time fish stop breeding or showing signs of ill health, the damage is 
done. All that lowering nitrate levels will help at that point is the next generation of fish.

Nitrate is a good barometer to use to determine if the balance between stocking, feeding, and 
maintenance routines is good. It's a good idea to check occasionally, particularly as fish grow and 
excrete more nitrogenous waste than they used to. I hadn't tested my 180 in a while, and when I did 
I found nitrates were around 20ppm when they had been around 10ppm for many months. It moved 
me to get more aggressive about water changes and more careful about how much food I was 
tossing into the tank. I'm glad I didn't wait until signs of ill health.

Also keep in mind that nitrates are acidic and consume buffers and lower pH. If you're not careful 
about monitoring nitrates, a pH crash could sneak up on you. Here's some more info.


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## mbargas (Apr 19, 2009)

prov356 said:


> Also keep in mind that nitrates are acidic and consume buffers and lower pH. If you're not careful
> about monitoring nitrates, a pH crash could sneak up on you. Here's some more info.


The nitrates would have to consume a lot of buffers in my tanks to cause a pH crash. I keep coral sand and Texas Holey rock, which keeps the water hard and alkaline.

I haven't checked my nitrates in ages, but I think I will test them periodically out of curiosity. I just don't want it to become an obsession. I try to keep things simple. I'll use the strips, which are quick and easy.


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

Compare your tap water to your tank water with your test kits. Hopefully they will have two different results giving you an idea if your test kits are working properly.


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## psyber (Jan 7, 2009)

BenHugs said:


> Compare your tap water to your tank water with your test kits. Hopefully they will have two different results giving you an idea if your test kits are working properly.


The plot thickens. I did this the other night and got on here to produce the results. 
Using three different test kits I tested the tap water at two different locations, one on city water, the other on county water (whatever that means). The results were unanimous. Tap water tested at 30 - 40 ppm of nitrate. Furthermore, I tested some water from one of those fresh drinking-water stations on the corner and got a reading of 0ppm nitrate.

Even more interesting is that it was not always this way. When I was cycling my tank I would get much lower readings (almost 0). I assume the increase come from all the farmers (I live in a heavy agricultural area) who have recently been planing and fertilizing the summer plants.

So, the obvious question. How do I remove the nitrate from the tap water? RO systems are out of the question as they are too costly. Also, it is beyond impractical to use the water from the water stations. Are there any products that remove nitrate (I know dumb question)?


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

I'm very interested on what everyone has to say about this. Plants are a good start. Google aquaponics you might find yourself growing a house plant out of the back of you tank.

I think there are products out there that will do the job (Carbon might be one of them)???

I have a freshwater skimmer working on my tank but this may not work for you. My ph is around 8 and I do run aquarium salts.


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## psyber (Jan 7, 2009)

BenHugs said:


> I'm very interested on what everyone has to say about this. Plants are a good start. Google aquaponics you might find yourself growing a house plant out of the back of you tank.
> 
> I think there are products out there that will do the job (Carbon might be one of them)???
> 
> I have a freshwater skimmer working on my tank but this may not work for you. My ph is around 8 and I do run aquarium salts.


I have 3 amazon swords, which are doing terribly b/c of diatoms, and a java fern which is doing OK. 
I keep looking at water conditioners and nothing mentions what to do with nitrate in tap water.


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## mbargas (Apr 19, 2009)

BenHugs said:


> I'm very interested on what everyone has to say about this. Plants are a good start. Google aquaponics you might find yourself growing a house plant out of the back of you tank.
> 
> .


It seems to me that everyone has a reason for not growing plants. Probaly the main concern is the possibilty of cichlds uprooting or otherwise disrupting plants.

Success with plants in a cichlid tank involves selecting the right plants, and growing them effectively with the apprpriate lighting. If you can succed in establishing fast-growing plants, you should be able to drastically reduce your nitrate.

If you want to protect your plants from the cichlids, you can have an overflow system into another tank or refugium in which you can house your plants. You can keep rooted, floating, or even terrestrial plants (pothos). Make sure you have good lighting. The stronger the better. As the plants remove the nitrogenous wastes from the water, the water pumpped back into the main tank should have lower nitrates.


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## psyber (Jan 7, 2009)

mbargas said:


> Success with plants in a cichlid tank involves selecting the right plants, and growing them effectively with the apprpriate lighting. If you can succed in establishing fast-growing plants, you should be able to drastically reduce your nitrate.
> 
> If you want to protect your plants from the cichlids, you can have an overflow system into another tank or refugium in which you can house your plants. You can keep rooted, floating, or even terrestrial plants (pothos). Make sure you have good lighting. The stronger the better. As the plants remove the nitrogenous wastes from the water, the water pumpped back into the main tank should have lower nitrates.


I cheat. Since, I have sand substrate, my plants are kept in terracotta planters that are filled with small rocks. Every now and then my cichlids dig a little in the planters but I just put the rocks back in when I do a WC :lol: However, for the most part the cichlids digg in the sand and leave the plants alone.

Even still, I think you would need a small jungle worth of plants to keep the nitrates down. Are there any other options for removing the nitrates from tap water?


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## mbargas (Apr 19, 2009)

psyber said:


> mbargas said:
> 
> 
> > .... think you would need a small jungle worth of plants to keep the nitrates down. Are there any other options for removing the nitrates from tap water?


The rate of growth of the plants is more important than the ststic quantity of the plants. A large amount of slow-growing plants won't help much. If the plants are growing so fast that you actually have to trim them down and physically remove some from the tank, then they're sucking up the nitrogenous wastes.

If the plants aren't growing fast enough, try experimenting with different lighting options. If basic aquarium lights aren't working aqdequately, try moving up to higher output options such as compact fluorescent, metal halide, etc. They are more expensive, but they should take your plant growth to the next level.


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## mbargas (Apr 19, 2009)

psyber said:


> mbargas said:
> 
> 
> > .... think you would need a small jungle worth of plants to keep the nitrates down. Are there any other options for removing the nitrates from tap water?


The rate of growth of the plants is more important than the ststic quantity of the plants. A large amount of slow-growing plants won't help much. If the plants are growing so fast that you actually have to trim them down and physically remove some from the tank, then they're sucking up the nitrogenous wastes.

If the plants aren't growing fast enough, try experimenting with different lighting options. If basic aquarium lights aren't working aqdequately, try moving up to higher output options such as compact fluorescent, metal halide, etc. They are more expensive, but they should take your plant growth to the next level.


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## psyber (Jan 7, 2009)

mbargas said:


> The rate of growth of the plants is more important than the ststic quantity of the plants. A large amount of slow-growing plants won't help much. If the plants are growing so fast that you actually have to trim them down and physically remove some from the tank, then they're sucking up the nitrogenous wastes.


That's a good point. Maybe I will look into adding some new plants, especially since my swords are not doing so well. When I first put them in the tank they grew like mad. Then, they just stopped.



 mbargas said:


> If the plants aren't growing fast enough, try experimenting with different lighting options. If basic aquarium lights aren't working aqdequately, try moving up to higher output options such as compact fluorescent, metal halide, etc. They are more expensive, but they should take your plant growth to the next level.


This http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsU...7/cl0/coralifefwt5aqualightdoublestriplight48 is a link to my light. I got this specifically for making a planted tank (before I learned about how cool cichlids are). The lights are on roughly 10 hours a day and they get sun light from a window. I suppose I could start adding ferts to help them grow faster but w/o Co2 I am not sure if they would help much.


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## mbargas (Apr 19, 2009)

psyber said:


> [...The lights are on roughly 10 hours a day and they get sun light from a window. I suppose I could start adding ferts to help them grow faster but w/o Co2 I am not sure if they would help much.


Odds are the light from the windpw is much brighter than your fluorescent lights. The only thing that comes close to direct sunlight is the metal halide.

I personally have not tried the CO2 systems. It's too high tech for me.

As far as fertilizer is concerned. Be carefull not to add anything containing nitrates, since that would defeat the purpose of the plants. Most fertilizers designed for aquariums have no nitrates or phosphates, but have other necessary components such as potassium, and trace elements such as manganese.


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## reflexhunter (Jul 25, 2009)

Are there any products that remove nitrate (I know dumb question)?[/quote]
If I understand your question correctly,you want to remove nitate from the water before you put it into the tank?I have started using a product called "safe" it claims to remove nitrate you could check it out and see if you are interested in it.I use it to condition my tap water has worked to remove chlorine but I couldent tell you if it really helps with nitate.


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## reflexhunter (Jul 25, 2009)

sorry it does not say it removes nirite/nitrate it detoxifies it.


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## Hthundar (Apr 10, 2009)

reflexhunter said:


> Are there any products that remove nitrate (I know dumb question)?


If I understand your question correctly,you want to remove nitate from the water before you put it into the tank?I have started using a product called "safe" it claims to remove nitrate you could check it out and see if you are interested in it.I use it to condition my tap water has worked to remove chlorine but I couldent tell you if it really helps with nitate.[/quote]

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product ... trate.html


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

If you dig deep enough on Seachem's site you will read that their detoxifying products only detoxify nitrates for up to 48 hours...

I know for sure Seachem Representatives openly admit this in Seachem's forum... and I believe I've read it elsewhere on their site...

I believe this is the truth with Seachem's competitors products as well...

There are types of media that are claimed to house bacteria that consume nitrates. I have strong doubts that they work and I have heard from several users that they do not work as advertised...


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## BenHugs (Jan 13, 2007)

You could play around with a de-nitrifier. They are used in saltwater tanks but rarely in freshwater but will work


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