# Multifasciatus Offspring Disappearing



## Darkskies (Mar 17, 2012)

Hi everyone,

I took a hiatus from this forum since I have been busy with school. As an update I used to live in Upstate NY but am now in NJ for school and one of my last threads on this forum was on how to move my 20 gallon long with 6 multies and 100 shells to my new location(a 5 hour and 20 minute drive).

In any case, all of my multies are safe and sound and have been thriving for the most part. The only issue is that I still only have 6 multies and even though they have new offspring on and off the fry disappear within 4-5 days or so. I feed the fish with NLS small and crush this formula when feeding the fry. I also include frozen BBS as a supplement. All reports say that multies breed like rabbits(which they do) and fiercely defend their young. In my case however, the fry keep disappearing. Could any of the fish be cannibalizing the young?

I feed the fry using an eyedropper and initially I would submerge the pipette down near the shell where the fry would be hiding and spray the food in but I thought that might be too aggressive(after the fry continued to disappear) and started to just spray the liquid suspension of crushed NLS and frozen BBS from above the waterline. For the most part I do think this method works in getting the food down to the shells but I am not 100% sure if it reaches the very bottom of the tank where the shells are. How does everyone else here feed their multi fry? The articles I've read make it seem that you don't have to pay much attention and the fry will get food anyhow. The fry still disappear within 4-5 days using this method.

I have an aquaclear 70(older model was 300) as the filter(which might be too much for a 20 gallon long) but I have it running down at a low outflow and also have a sponge covering the intake. What could be the issue? Do I have too many shells(the shells litter the floor so much so that the substrate appears to be shells though there is a 1 inch layer of sand).

During winter break when I went home I left my tank and fish at the apartment here in NJ. They were without food for about 2 weeks yet when I returned the fish appear to have fared very well and on top of that I had new fry. If the adult multies are feasting on the fry within 4-5 days of them being free-swimming why would there be new fry that survived a time period of possibly up to 2 weeks when the multies received no food(or else obtained minimal food from the tank environment)? On top of this these fry are still alive up till today and I see them readily gobble up the crushed NLS/BBS mixture I give them every day. Do you think the multies have finally learned not to eat their fry? I just hope that I don't jinx myself and end up not being able to locate the fry anymore tomorrow.

I am also planning on doing a water change on the tank soon. Is this a good idea considering I have fry that have survived for a significant time period? Would I be jeopardizing their survival? I'm going to be using a python no spill clean and fill to do it. Will the fry be all right?

What could be the issue and what should I do?

Thank you very much in advance!


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## orau22 (May 8, 2012)

First thing I would do is check water parameters, if the water parameters are not in check, it may be very difficult for the fry to survive. Since they are much smaller and not as developed they may not be able to deal with small issues in water parameters that the adults can.


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## 02redz28 (Dec 21, 2012)

orau22 said:


> First thing I would do is check water parameters, if the water parameters are not in check, it may be very difficult for the fry to survive. Since they are much smaller and not as developed they may not be able to deal with small issues in water parameters that the adults can.


I agree. I'd run a check on your water. Fry are intolerant of poor water quality.


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## DrgRcr (Jun 23, 2009)

I had multies that did the same thing when I had them. The first couple of times, most of the fry survived. After that I was lucky to have 3-4 left. I keep up on my changes, so my water quality was fine. It would not surprise me if the other adults(not the parents) were cannibalizing them in the middle of the night. FWIW, I never did anything special to feed the fry. Enough fine particles from normal flake feeding(and probably pellet fines passed through the adult gills as well) was enough to nourish them.


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## Darkskies (Mar 17, 2012)

DrgRcr said:


> I had multies that did the same thing when I had them. The first couple of times, most of the fry survived. After that I was lucky to have 3-4 left. I keep up on my changes, so my water quality was fine. It would not surprise me if the other adults(not the parents) were cannibalizing them in the middle of the night. FWIW, I never did anything special to feed the fry. Enough fine particles from normal flake feeding(and probably pellet fines passed through the adult gills as well) was enough to nourish them.


Ohh I see.. What did you do to fix the situation? I've been suspecting that some of the other multies might be cannibalizing them. Also, seeing as how these last 3 fry are alive and doing well so far would it be a bad idea to do a water change now? Would the fry be all right with a water change using the python no spill clean and fill or would it disrupt their environment to the point where either they don't cope with it well or the adults are triggered into eating them? Should I just do a small water change or is a large water change all right too?


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## Floridagirl (Jan 10, 2008)

I don't kow what to tell you. I started with 6 in a 10 gallon, I have 15-16 now with two new batches of fry. I gave 10 away a while back. I change the water 30-40 percent weekly, and feed once a day. They usually stop having as many fry survive when the tank gets overcrowded, but that doesn't seem to be your issue. I would advise checking the water quality, as well.


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## Darkskies (Mar 17, 2012)

So yesterday I performed a 50% water change. Today, I checked the nitrate levels and they're in the 5-10 ppm range(kind of hard to tell using the API test kit). I doubt the water quality was much worse before the water change.

In any case, the fry that had been surviving still seem to be doing well. However, I noticed that the mom(who I had always thought was a male because of her feistiness though she is much smaller than the 2 males I do have) was attacking one of the large(relative term) males and going at him rather ferociously. Could he possibly be cannibalizing the offspring from the previous batches? It's interesting to note that this is the first batch of fry that this particular fish has had. All the other batches before had come from the three other females. I have a suspicion that the other females might not have done as good a job at protecting their fry. I really hope that that's not the case because what would I do if one of the males(or any of the other fish) are eating the fry? This isn't supposed to be how multies behave, correct?

I'm just happy that this batch of fry are still alive and I'm hoping that they'll grow to adulthood. What should I do? Any other advice? Thanks!


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## orau22 (May 8, 2012)

keep monitoring the water parameters, you may need to do small water changes more often to keep the water quality in check.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Interesting. I have read males will kill or eat other males fry if they take over a female.

Not seeing this myself as my puncs get all my multie fry at the moment.but my previous group were super co operative. Dunno why but guess it maybe perhaps because that group were all bred from one male and multiple but related females?


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## Darkskies (Mar 17, 2012)

24Tropheus said:


> Interesting. I have read males will kill or eat other males fry if they take over a female.
> 
> Not seeing this myself as my puncs get all my multie fry at the moment.but my previous group were super co operative. Dunno why but guess it maybe perhaps because that group were all bred from one male and multiple but related females?


Today in the morning, I noticed again that the mother multi was ferociously attacking one of the males. This wasn't one of the general warning movements to threaten the fish to move away but she was actually attacking the fish multiple times. The fry themselves seem to be doing well though I haven't fed them yet but I know at least 3 of them are still alive. In all likelihood all 5 of the fry I had counted the other day are still there but I'll know for sure during feeding time.

If these fry were to disappear should I think about separating that one male by moving him to a 2 gallon Kritter Keeper and then seeing if subsequent spawns are reared to maturity? I've never seen any fish personally engage in brawls like how this mother multi was bashing the male.. Is this normal behavior or do you think that that particular male might have eaten the fry from the other batches? Like I had stated before, this is the first batch of fry that this particular fish has had while all the other ones that subsequently disappeared were fry from the other females..


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## Frazee86 (Aug 1, 2010)

I would try making two separate piles of shells with a line of sight divider in the middle sounds like he may of been outcasted by that female atleast. It would give him some where to go to get away from the group besides that not sure never seen a multi eat another multi before in my short keeping started with 6a ended up with about 25 n two groups in my 75


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Frazee86 said:


> I would try making two separate piles of shells with a line of sight divider in the middle sounds like he may of been outcasted by that female atleast. It would give him some where to go to get away from the group besides that not sure never seen a multi eat another multi before in my short keeping started with 6a ended up with about 25 n two groups in my 75


 8) Idea.
Nope not seen it myself but I guess something must be eating em.

Sure would be an interesting tank that way and yep prob ok for breeding.
yep in a 20g long should be do able.

If I wanted max fry production and less interest (you have that in Spades already by the sound of it) I would try with just one male.

Keep watching, you may get the best idea by seeing the behaviour eg catching sight of the culprit with a mouthful of baby. Or see were the missing ones are going to.

Oh just an idea but in a high filtered tank I find pre filters help. Very caurse foam/sponge over the intakes. Stops even very young being sucked up and the stuff collected there makes a 24 hour feeding station.

All the best James


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Frazee86 said:


> I would try making two separate piles of shells with a line of sight divider in the middle sounds like he may of been outcasted by that female atleast. It would give him some where to go to get away from the group besides that not sure never seen a multi eat another multi before in my short keeping started with 6a ended up with about 25 n two groups in my 75


 8) Idea.
Nope not seen it myself but I guess something must be eating em.

Sure would be an interesting tank that way and yep prob ok for breeding.
yep in a 20g long should be do able.

If I wanted max fry production and less interest (you have that in Spades already by the sound of it) I would try with just one male.

Keep watching, you may get the best idea by seeing the behaviour eg catching sight of the culprit with a mouthful of baby. Or see were the missing ones are going to.

Oh just an idea but in a high filtered tank I find pre filters help. Very caurse foam/sponge over the intakes. Stops even very young being sucked up and the stuff collected there makes a 24 hour feeding station.

All the best James


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## Darkskies (Mar 17, 2012)

I thought it was about time to post an update. The mother multi has had a total of 10 fry and they are all alive and doing well so far. This might not mean a lot to you guys but this is seriously the first time I've had any fry survive longer than 4 days. It's been about 2 weeks since I spotted the first fry that this fish has had which is exciting for me especially when they all gather around and swim during feeding time. It's unfortunate that none of the other batches of fry produced by the other females ever made/make it to the stage where they can actually swim in the water column instead of just scoot around near the bottom. As far as I know this is her very first batch. I spotted some fry near 2 other females earlier (there are 4 females and 2 males) but sadly there is no sign of them now.

I've been pondering that the disappearance of fry could be due to several reasons. I know I definitely overfeed the fry which hasn't harmed the 10 current ones that are doing well but I always make sure to pipette/spray some of the crushed NLS/BBS in water solution over a shell layer the moment I ever see fry(but I always spray from above the waterline). Do you think maybe at the early stages when the fry are first born/dashing in and out of the shell, the influx of crushed food solution could be detrimental to their health such that they perish? The reason this occurred to me was because the female that has the 10 fry seemed to have had them while I was on winter break when the tank received no food at all for 14 days. If they became free-swimming a sufficient time before I got back to NJ, then they must have been living off the algae and detritus in the shells. Perhaps they developed their body/immune system well enough to now handle the crushed food I give them daily. At what stage do you start supplementing the fry with food?

Another reason could be that my tank's nitrate levels are high but when I measured the nitrate the day after the last water change it was in the 5-10 ppm range. That being said maybe this was reduced because of the water change I performed and to be honest there is a lot of algae and detritus(cyanobacteria?) on the tank floor and over the shells. Also, I spotted the fry that recently disappeared from the other two females a couple of days after I performed the water change. This means that the nitrates may have been low and yet they still disappeared.

Finally, the female with 10 fry still attacks the one particular male. She isn't necessarily always violent but definitely keeps him at bay and away from the fry. During feeding time I once noticed him tilt down at a 45 degree angle and 'watch' one of the fry which immediately dashed into the shell cover. Right after the female came over and threatened him away. She seems to be the sole parent that looks over the fry. That being said she noticeably has less animosity to the other male and tolerates him much more. This makes me think the other male is the dad.. Could the one 'troublesome' male be eating the fry from the other fish? Perhaps the other females aren't really as vigilant about protecting their fry.

The appearance and disappearance of fry began after I moved the fish and tank to NJ. Right before then 3 of the females had had fry of which none were eaten but these did not survive the move. Could the move have triggered these females to not have great parenting skills? Even if their parenting skills are subpar the fry shouldn't be disappearing if they're receiving food right?

Finally, what should I do with my current situation? Should I remove the one male now or wait it out and see if these 10 fry that are vigilantly protected survive and if then they don't I should go ahead and remove the male?

How long do multies take to grow to a size where they're too big to be eaten by other multies? Every day I fear I'll come by the tank and the fry will be gone. It's disconcerting and not fun lol..

Sorry for the long post but I really appreciate any and all advice. Thanks!!


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

It sounds to me that yep you have two males each trying to populate the tank with thier own fry/young. If that means killing the other males young then yep happy to do that. Funny as some related males do not do this but co opperate.
I think I may have the same thing with my current batch of multies. Although they are related they are not co opperating like my last bunch did.
I do not think its about size of the young to be accepted into the bunch. More about if the bunch is co opperating and ready to accept helpers. Not easy if they are having to protect the young from one of their own species.

All the best James


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Think the tank big enough to try a simple tank divider. One male and females each side.
Let em become two breeding bunches.

I am not doing this with mine. Because I enjoy watching the interactions. And young preduction not my priority. But your aim seems to be different to mine. 8)


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## Frazee86 (Aug 1, 2010)

I wouldn't be to sad either if fry disappeared before long your tank will be over run with em and you will have to thin the herd regularly more then likely but if you want max fry count I'd just try removing the problem male for a bit n see if that solves your problem


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## Darkskies (Mar 17, 2012)

Frazee86 said:


> I wouldn't be to sad either if fry disappeared before long your tank will be over run with em and you will have to thin the herd regularly more then likely but if you want max fry count I'd just try removing the problem male for a bit n see if that solves your problem


Thanks for the replies, guys.
These are my first ever cichlids and my goal for this tank was to eventually have a huge colony of 50+ fish.. The tank is of only moderate interest right now since I've only had the 6 fish that I started it with since last August. Although fry appear every now and then they usually all vanish which for me doesn't make for much of an interesting tank. I'm happy that the 10 fry are are doing well. If the 10 I have now were to disappear, I'll either rescape the aquarium so there is a middle section of just sand and no shells(so essentially two huge piles of shells instead of the one huge pile I have now) or remove the one male.. Does that sound like a good plan?

I'm planning on doing another water change today.. Are large water changes detrimental to fry? Should I just stick to a 20% water change today? It's been a little less than 2 weeks since the last change..


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## Frazee86 (Aug 1, 2010)

When I had them I had a huge pile of shells then rocks on other half was a 75 tho. So any that got rejected ventured to the other side and hide in the rocks. First one was a female then a male, they actually ended up breeding noticed when I rescaped the rocks kind of ushered them to the shells and they lived there. But at the time all the adults where hiding cuz of all the moving of rocks so they assumed they where there's I guess haha rejected pair got accepted back in to for few weeks then got rejected again or different ones did. Who knows all look the same when adults lol. Anyways if I was to try to keep all the originals I'd make two piles with something to break line of sight.

As for water change and care for fry I did nothing special. Kept my normal routine and feed same amount of nls as normal they seemed to thrive just fine. Only they did change was where and how dumped water in did it not near the bed and not as quick with pouring it in


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## Darkskies (Mar 17, 2012)

I have some updates. First of all the 10 fry are all alive and well and come out to eat during feeding time. Otherwise they are hiding amongst the shells. Most importantly though, today I've identified the culprit because the one male that the mother is hostile to actually tried to lunge at a couple of the fry when they were out during feeding time. The fry dove into the shell cover and the mother came over and drove away the male. I haven't noticed him do anything similar(apart from the hovering over the fry one day a while back) from the past few days so I thought maybe it could have been a different issue.

Another of the multies has had fry but I fully expect these to disappear even before they really come out of their shells because of this problem male. I'm not 100% sure the other male is innocent but he definitely seems to be less aggressive overall. Ideally I would like to continue keeping all 6 fish in the 20 gallon long but I think I might have to move the problem male. The 10 fry have survived throughout all this time and I'm afraid to rearrange the shells to make two piles since their home base is the middle section of the tank which would be the area that becomes devoid of shells if I were to make the 2 huge piles. Should I remove the problem male as soon as possible? He hasn't been able to eat any of the fry so far but they are venturing out more and more during feeding time nowadays. When not feeding though they tend to lay low and stay camouflaged among the shells or between/beneath them. Do you think they'll be able to survive until they get to a big enough size to not be eaten using just their instincts, shell camouflage, and the mother's protection? I have a 2 gallon Kritter Keeper I could move the male to if absolutely necessary. What should I do? I don't want to lose the fry.

Would eventually making the two shell piles be a good way to stop the cannibalism? Is it really just a territorial issue? I also don't have any rocks at the moment so would 5-6 inches of open sand be a good enough line of demarcation or do they need the rocks in order to get the hint? If this works out and the multies square off into 2 separate colonies would that mean the middle section never really gets occupied?

I appreciate any and all advice! Thanks!


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## Shaky (Jan 2, 2003)

You can always try to move him away. How about just his shell and a couple empty ones. Ostracize him. If he's lucky and attractive, another female may join him.


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## Darkskies (Mar 17, 2012)

I have a new update and the situation has now become even more convoluted. The 10 fry seem to have been doing fine for the most part and now they have more siblings. I counted a total of 19-20 fry since yesterday. You can definitely tell that they were born in different batches since the newer fry are considerably smaller than the older ones. On top of that the male that I had thought was the one that was eating the fry turns out to have become fully accepted by the mother. I'm 99% sure he's the father of the newer batch of fry and he might even be the father of the older batch of fry. I know I said I saw him lunge at the fry before but today he was swimming through the school of fry and not bothering any of them. He still assumes the 45 degree angle body position while 'zoning in' on a fry but he never attacks any and seems to be caring for them or at least the territory in that he'll chase away the other fish.

All is not good news however since today during feeding time I think I might have witnessed the school of 20 fry get reduced to 16-17! I am convinced now that the 'troublesome male' is not eating the fry since I witnessed 2 of the other females try to attack the fry and their behavior is very different from the male's 45 degree nose-down position. For the most part the females don't bother the fry but since the fry are becoming more adventuresome during feeding time I witnessed the 2 females on 4 separate occasions to rush at the fry at lightning quick speed and then rush back into their own territory and usually into their shell as the male chases them away. They engage in these sneak attacks on a whim and when you least expect it. I'm quite surprised at how fast they move when they do this. They move so fast that I can't tell if the fry were eaten or if they dashed for cover quickly enough. I've decided to just spray the crushed NLS/BBS solution over the area where the parents are and where most of the fry are in an attempt to try to steer the fry to stay within that area and not go farther.. On the other hand when I spray the food in multiple areas of the tank, it keeps the adult fish occupied somewhat too since they can apparently pick out the tiny bits of food even though they themselves are so much larger in size. Is this a good idea?

What is causing this weird behavior? The 'troublesome male' also routinely rushes at the mother and and has her hide in the shell and prevents her from eating during feeding time. She still gets enough to eat but he tries to force her to stay inside her territory. I thought he was just being antisocial and abusive before but maybe it's because he wants her to stay in the territory to keep watch over the fry that also start to swim all over since they know food is coming... Another strange thing I've noticed is that the mother will also rush at the fry periodically(usually aiming at one or two) when they're all out and eating. This scares them into the shells/to take cover and I had thought maybe she was eating some too when doing this but the fry were never reduced in number. Why does she rush at them like this?

I can't believe my fish are so complicated! I know that cichlids in general are a handful and that you can't really ever predict especially how a Tanganyikan fish will behave and what it'll do but multies are supposed to be easy and beginner fish that fill up the tank with offspring quickly and without any issues like the cannibalism I've been having.... I know some people might enjoy the challenge but I didn't want a challenge at this point since I'm busy with school.. Ugh. What do you all think and what should I do?


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Just remove the troublesome one. :thumb:
Not sure why you have so much angst about this. :wink:


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## Darkskies (Mar 17, 2012)

I was probably exaggerating my angst in the last post. I'm just frustrated. In my last post I explained how the 'troublesome' one is actually now protecting the fry and it's the nonproducer females(the ones that aren't the mother) that try to whittle down the fry population. Yesterday I counted 17 fry and originally there were 19-20.. They don't seem to have been too successful so I'm hoping most of the remaining fry make it to adulthood. How long does it take for multi fry to reach a good enough size to not get eaten? 2-3 months?


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## Frazee86 (Aug 1, 2010)

If you have not made a line of sight area I say try it. Just try to get all the fry to one side with the parents. Moving shells around shouldn't bother them to much I would pile the shells up randomly and uncover the ones in the sand. Just gave them something to move around again.


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