# Is a 65 gallon tropheus species tank feasible?



## gherlevi (Dec 16, 2004)

Question: I've got a 65 gallon tank that is plenty tall but only 3 ft. long.

Is it possible to set up a species tank with tropheus? Or, is that inviting eventual disaster because of the shorter footprint?

If it's feasible, what decor? Bare as possible to minimize aggression? Or, still attempt rock piles to establish territories?

Any advice from the rank of tropheus-experienced is appreciated! Thanks.


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## IrkedCitizen (Apr 26, 2007)

It could work but chances are likely that you will head for disaster. You can use it for a temporary tank for some fry until you can find a longer footprint.

That's just my opinion though.


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## gherlevi (Dec 16, 2004)

Yeah, I think I'm on the cusp of what's reasonable. I've been doing my research, and every source points to a 4 ft. tank being ideal... with some people having luck and success in larger 3 ft. long tanks.

My thought is that it might be possible, if the tank is sparsely decorated. Some articles suggest people have success breeding tropheus in these shorter tanks... but I wanted the comfort level of knowing that someone in these posts can "vouch" for this approach.


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## flashg (Oct 5, 2007)

Do it dude... It has been done before... 8)


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

If you don't have experience with tropheus, I would advise against it. I'm not even sure where you get the information that a four foot tank is ideal. It isn't. A six foot tank is ideal.


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## gherlevi (Dec 16, 2004)

I got the information in the "Tropheus Corner" on this site. From the article "How Many Tropheus in a Tank?":

I must admit to having success using tall and wide three-foot tanks such as a 65 gallon with breeding heavy female groups. You are limited to about 15-18 adults in a setup like that.

Other articles recommend a standard 75 gallon as a good setup for a single colony.

The reason I posted was to test the theory of that original quote. And, I'm gathering from Tropheus, they are a contested topic!

I'm new to tropheus, but not new to cichlids and aggression. I've done my homework... part of me says the only way to find out is to try it.


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

By all means, if you're inclined to want to try it anyways.

I suggested otherwise because MOST people who have tried 3 foot tanks have not had success. The author of that article was already successful with tropheus. He also states he had luck in a 65 with a _heavy female breeding group_. I don't agree with the wording as it lets readers make their own judgment call on 3 foot tanks and tropheus.

One of the reasons failed tropheus keepers don't post about their experience is the same reason you don't read most horror stories about tropheus. Hobbyists lose entire colonies and walk away from them never to return because they are bitter about it. It's partly because other hobbyists provided advice based on individual instances rather than collective experiences or the hobbyist went ahead and tried something despite advice they received to not attempt it. I know I wouldn't come back on a forum and admit to losing 300 dollars worth of tropheus because I tried something I was advised not to try.

Many hobbyists think tropheus keepers who give advice on this forum are too anal and too demanding. Many hobbyists would rather insist, and often without ANY experience in keeping tropheus, that our feedback isn't about the fish but that we're just trying to maintain some kind of snooty standard. They believe that tropheus are no different than mbuna in how they should be managed.

I can appreciate that you have experience with other aggressive africans. The issue is not directly about aggression. The reference to why someone with experience would have better luck has to do with being able to accurately read the behaviour of the fish and knowing when you have a problem on your hands, because with tropheus, this is exactly how people lose entire colonies. It happens before they even realize they have a problem.

Yes, some will come forward and say they've never had a problem with tropheus. Many many more will come forward and say they have had to deal with bloat on more than one occasion. And they are keeping tropheus in 4-6 foot tanks.

Tropheus are already at a disadvantage in that they have a poorly constructed digestive tract which is prone to blockage. They are also scat-eaters, which makes any bacterial/parasitic issue even more critical as those sorts of problems can rip through an entire colony in a matter of a few days by spreading through feces. Mbuna are not typically like that. Bloat progresses through a mbuna tank much more slowly.

Bloat can be brought on by aggression, and it can also be brought on by environmental conditions. Tropheus are relatively big eaters and big poopers. In a smaller tank that does not have proper filtration, and most tropheus keepers suggest filtration with 7-10 times tank volume flow rates, even a dozen adult tropheus will quickly suffer in a less-than-ideal environment.

I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm simply saying having experience with tropheus could make the difference between success and loss in any tank, but especially smaller ones. I will not give you advice to try something even I wouldn't try.

Having said all that, , if you do decide to try it, ensure you have meds on hand and best of luck. :thumb:


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Excellent post NorthShore :thumb:



> The reference to why someone with experience would have better luck has to do with being able
> to accurately read the behaviour of the fish and knowing when you have a problem on your hands,
> because with tropheus, this is exactly how people lose entire colonies. It happens before they even
> realize they have a problem.


This comment intrigued me. Mine are in a 6 footer, so hopefully all will stay well, but it made me wonder 
what those warning signs might be. What would one want to watch out for?


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

Thanks, prov356. 

Warning signs? Individual fish mouthing food but not eating it, going off their food completely without actually holding eggs, hanging back from the colony (typical behaviour for a holding female, not so typical for a subdominant male or female who is getting beat on), very high levels or unusual levels of agression. Torn fins. I see scale damage on males but I rarely see torn fins. Torn fins to me would mean a fish that is really getting beat up.

Tropheus are also quite vulnerable after shipping due to being taken off their food prior to shipping. An empty gut is the perfect environment for a bacterial bloom in a fish who's immune system is faltering due to stress of shipping.


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## RayQ (Sep 26, 2007)

Well said Northshore! I bet most of us had issuse with the first colony that went too far because of not knowing what to look for/expect when problems arise.

Ray


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## flashg (Oct 5, 2007)

Personally my colonies have done just as well if not better in 4 foot tanks as in 6ft tanks... I actually think a 4 foot deeper and taller tank would be be better than a six footer with the same water volume... JMO

I have kept many tropheus colonies and have had the best breeding success in 75g four foot tank... I also have keep colonies in 6ft 125g and in 4 foot 55g all have bred for me... As a matter of fact my friend kept 18 ilangi in a 6ft 125g and just recently moved them into a 4ft 75g and like magic they started breeding a few days after the move in a smaller tank.

The key is to get a balanced colony for the tank you have my friend. :wink:

Oh shiz I must have missed the part about 3 foot tank I was thinking 4 ft... NOt the best choice, but do able... I had a colony in a 46g bowfront and they did ok for a while... But this was a temporary thing.


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## gherlevi (Dec 16, 2004)

NorthShore...

I greatly appreciate this feedback... very much! Your detailed explanations are very helpful.

I'm still on the fence regarding whether or not I try this. I've got metronizadole on hand from dealing with bloat in my first mbuna setup. Your description sounds similar to what I observed... just at a much more accelerated pace.

One last question...

Assuming I try this, is there are particular tropheus that offers a slighter degree of hardiness or reduced aggression?

I'm visiting the ACA extravaganza this weekend, and after kicking the idea around a bit, I'll probably either give the tropheus idea a shot... or try something else like a planted south american setup.

At the risk of doing something stupid... I'm hoping my anal-retentive tendencies toward research and fish care will help compensate for the lack of direct tropheus experience.


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## gherlevi (Dec 16, 2004)

Oh! One last thought...

If I bail on trying to make this happen in a 65, what else would you throw in it? I've done mbuna, and it's too short for cyps... I've got a 65 gallon tank and one hair-brained idea for how to use it!


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## IrkedCitizen (Apr 26, 2007)

I think Duboisi are the easiest of the variants to keep. They can thrive in even a 1m/1f ratio but they are tropheus so things do happen.

I still say get fry and raise them to adults. Rather then get adults and just toss them in a 3 foot tank.

Don't get these people started on plants.


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

Duboisi would be a good pick. I really like the idea of starting with fry and culling to get a very high female to male ratio. It gets tricky sexing young tropheus because virgin female vents look like male vents. And fry are much easier to keep alive than adults if only because there isn't the breeding/male to male aggression that so often leads to distress.

If you're experienced in medicating fish with bloat, and you're anal about water quality and tank maintenance, you're right in suggesting that your ability in fishkeeping compensates for your inexperience with keeping tropheus. If you're prepared to pay them the attention they need when feeding and you spend enough time in the fishroom so you'll see when there are potential problems developing, you may very well be ahead of the game.

I don't like to discourage people from trying tropheus. I personally love them and I do think there are myths about them based on erroneous information.

You could end up with a workable set up and you could end up with a rogue male who decimates the entire group simply because they won't leave his territory. My experience has been that a breeding dominant male will take up about 2 square feet as his own turf. In a 3 foot tank, that leaves almost no room for harried fish to escape.

That is where larger tanks come into play. Larger body of water provides an environment where water quality will be relatively stable so that if a fish becomes stressed, there isn't that potential for a combination of stress from aggression + poor water quality leading to bloat, more distance/room for lesser males to flee a hyper male, more room for dominant males to have a proper territory so they can focus on breeding and not on chasing sub-males away all the time and more room for non-gravid females to avoid males who want to basically try to force them to spawn. Essentially, larger tanks provide a buffer to the hobbyist.

My general opinion on smaller tanks is that so many adjustments have to be made, that you end up with a group of fish in a glass box simply floating in one place. The tank can't be decorated properly with rock work because the dominant male will see the structure as an extension of his territory or a lesser male tries to claim the rock as a breeding site, hence driving the dom male crazy.

I've kept small colonies in 4 foot tanks and I didn't feel right because they were simply crammed in the tank. I had to keep the tank bereft of any decorations because of territorial disputes. Sometimes that is the best way to curb aggression, and breeding does occur in tanks like that. But I actually felt bad because I wasn't simply keeping them for breeding purposes. Signs of breeding don't necessarily speak to a thriving colony. Breeding is about survival of the species and nothing more. I wanted my tanks to be aesthetically (sp?) pleasing.

It's your call.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I have kept Tropheus duboisi for 2 years in a 3 foot tank. (Smaller than the one proposed.)

Grew up a group of 9 young and was lucky enough to get 7 females and one male surviving.
A few fry even survived in the tank.
Group failed when Landlord turned off the elec when I was on a break from Uni.
(20 years or more ago) before the time of good treatments for bloat and not that great filtration on the tank.

Would I recommend it to others... No
Would I do it again....No (unless I stumbled upon a small group already co existing happily in a 3 foot tank)

I would rather not talk about all the times I tried and failed to keep a group alive in a 3 foot.

I do not see the point in putting em in a 3 foot. The increase in cost to a 90g is just so small.
Second hand systems of this size are very very cheap here and you just need add an air pump a good sponge filter and an airstone a scattering of sand and a couple of flat rocks, cycle the tank and your off. :thumb:

You can forget about lights, power filters UVs and all the rest of that stuff to cut costs.

Oh keep the 3 foot 65g for fry raising/brooding tank you will soon need it. :wink:


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## gherlevi (Dec 16, 2004)

Thanks 24Tropheus for sharing the experience.

Only hitch is that the cost of a 75 gallon is more than the cost of the 65 sitting right now in my garage... which is zippo!

It's either tropheus in the 65 or some other sort of setup. Hard to justify to the wife why I need to spend $$ on a new tank when one is sitting in our garage!


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I would breed Pseudotropheus saulosi. Save the money from selling young until I could do Tropheus properly. 8) ?


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## gherlevi (Dec 16, 2004)

Sorry to keep posting, but this thread is really helpful.

Northshore, thank you for the continued feedback.

I gotta tell ya, now that I've had my 125 set up for a while, I completely see the benefits of a larger tank. Wow. I know an mbuna setup is different, but the extra space really provides a much greater margin of error.

So, yeah, in a small tank, to do it right, it needs to be a pretty barebones setup. The only other option I can think of is a planted Amazon setup with angelfish and rams...

Honestly, I think angelfish are boring, and tropheus are pretty dang cool. It's the tradeoff between sparse tank (admittedly, in my basement) and cool fish, or proper setup with less inspiring species (at least to me).

Again, thank you all for taking the time to continue this thread. It's hard to balance between what's "possible" and what is "proper".

Plus, you know, the wife thinks duboisi are cute. I mean, cmon, polkadots. (At least for starters).


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## IrkedCitizen (Apr 26, 2007)

You could always sell the 65 gallon setup and put the money from that towards one with a 48"x18" footprint minimum.

http://www.craigslist.org is a great place to buy and sell aquariums. I have even been so lucky to pick up 210 gallon complete setups for $200.


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

gherlevi said:


> Sorry to keep posting, but this thread is really helpful.
> 
> Northshore, thank you for the continued feedback.
> 
> ...


You're welcome. 

Have you considered integrating a few duboisi fry into your mbuna tank? Singleton/pairs of duboisi are actually very good community fish if the tank is busy enough. There's a risk that you could end up with just one out of three, but I've actually seen mbuna set ups with a few dubs and they seem to do quite well. In fact, once upon a time, most hobbyists only kept pairs of duboisi because they seemed to do just fine in pairs, unlike most other tropheus.

Just throwing that thought out there.


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## gherlevi (Dec 16, 2004)

Very intriguing idea Northshore...

I'm hesitant to mess with what's working in the mbuna tank. The hierarchy is fully in order. Knock on wood, but not a single casualty since setup, not even a split fin. Whatever I throw in there now, I worry about how it'll do at this point.

But actually, my first go-around with africans, I had a tropheus duboisi in my first mbuna setup in a 55 gallon. The overall result wasn't so great because I was learning, but the duboisi did fine!

I've checked craigslist in the past, and there are some diamonds in the rough. A lot of rough though, at least in the Cleveland area. It's definitely worth checking to see if I can upgrade on the cheap.

Whatever I choose, I'll be choosing with some well-informed advice and consultation. Thanks everybody for taking the time.


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## blkg35 (Jun 2, 2008)

I say hold off on the tropheus until you can get a bigger tank. Just keep looking through craigslist until you find a good deal on a bigger tank. I found a 135gal 6footer acrylic tank for $40 on craigslist. It was only used for 1 month and brand spankin' new. 
If you want a more enjoyable experience with tropheus then it should be done the proper way.... :thumb:


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