# Kyoga Flameback



## stevemd24

Does anyone know a good place to get your hands on some of these?

I have several males but cant see to locate anyone with females anywhere


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## witamygreatdanes

I believe these are a CARES species. Dave's Rare Aquarium fish is a good resource. Also, you can contact the people at CARES to get info on reputable breeders as well. This is also a very good place to find people that breed these fish. It sounds like you want to breed! Are you planning on registering your current fish with CARES or have you already done so? I will find you some links and post them in another message. 

Kathy


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## witamygreatdanes

Here is the link to Dave's Aquarium fish. He is a very reliable resource for getting pure fish! He is promoted by my club so I'm confident you can trust him.

http://www.davesfish.com/index.php

Here is the link to the CARES Preservation Program. I recommend reading this page thoroughly and contacting them before ANY purchase of CARES species fish. These are the people that have to verify (vet) the fish to ensure pure breeding.

http://www.carespreservation.com/introduction.html

Good luck in your search!!

Kathy


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## stevemd24

Yes I have spoken to dave, and he doesnt seem to be able to get females as well... My males are gorgeous and as soon as i can figure out how to get a photo worthy of what they look like in real life i will post them up, I found a breeder but he doesnt have any at the moment


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## stevemd24

i have read there is alot of mistakes on this fish, so i am also posting up photos to verify


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## ratbones86

looks like a dayglow. body is a little to big for a kyoga


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## samaki

The color dosen't match neither the Kyoga flameback
xris


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## StructureGuy

stevemd24 said:


> i have read there are a lot of mistakes on this fish, so i am also posting up photos to verify


It does seem like every Victorian with identification challenges is being called either a Kyoga flameback or an Xmas fulu by well meaning posters on internet forums these days.

The pics you posted do not look like a Kyoga flameback to me.

Kevin


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## stevemd24

Well all the victorians look close,

1 what do you think this fish is,
2 what are the markings that suggest the breed?


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## Mschn99

ratbones86 said:


> looks like a dayglow. body is a little to big for a kyoga


While i agree it is victorian and is not a kyoga flameback, it also definitely is not a dayglow either, as i breed both. Below are examples of each. My kyoga flameback are registered with CARES. If this fish is pure, it still will be tough to identify for sure. Multiple clear pictures from different angles, and showing as close to full color as possible would be needed.

Kyoga Flameback









Dayglow


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## stevemd24

I will get my high def cam and take some photos should be up shortly


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## stevemd24

ok i tried my best to get better photos, they are a pain, lol every time i click they move o well if u can identify them correctly that would help me alot


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## AlphaWild

FWIW, it looks like Dayglow to me. But I'm no pro at this.


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## Mschn99

AlphaWild said:


> FWIW, it looks like Dayglow to me. But I'm no pro at this.


A dayglow should have the majority of the red that would be on the body in the breast, this fish does not, its along the backline. 
A dayglow should not have any major color in the roughly top quarter to third of its main body, this fish does.
A dayglow should not have dark black vertical bars in the body, this one does.
There are some other small coloration issues as well but those are the glaring one. The one thing the fish does have that matches the dayglow profile perfectly is the 3 egg spots.

I agree with you it shares the same body shape and apparent size as a dayglow, but the coloration doesnt totally match. I see some similarities but not enough to call it pure dayglow by any means. This is not to say that it could not be a hybrid with dayglow in it, which would be totally plausible, but its not a pure dayglow.


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## vann59

Not a dayglow or Kyoga flameback. Perhaps a rock kribensis or hybrid thereof. There is more than one vic called by that nickname.


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## vann59

Here are some similar looking vics

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1563

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=2134

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1564


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## AlphaWild

Mschn99 said:


> AlphaWild said:
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW, it looks like Dayglow to me. But I'm no pro at this.
> 
> 
> 
> A dayglow should have the majority of the red that would be on the body in the breast, this fish does not, its along the backline.
> A dayglow should not have any major color in the roughly top quarter to third of its main body, this fish does.
> A dayglow should not have dark black vertical bars in the body, this one does.
> There are some other small coloration issues as well but those are the glaring one. The one thing the fish does have that matches the dayglow profile perfectly is the 3 egg spots.
> 
> I agree with you it shares the same body shape and apparent size as a dayglow, but the coloration doesnt totally match. I see some similarities but not enough to call it pure dayglow by any means. This is not to say that it could not be a hybrid with dayglow in it, which would be totally plausible, but its not a pure dayglow.
Click to expand...

Thank you for pointing out the elements in question, because I was wondering what they might be. The species in question isn't familiar to me, so I was looking at the pics here for comparison: http://african-cichlid.com/Dayglow.htm In some of those pics it appeared the red could sometimes spread higher than the breast area, onto the back? There also seems to be evidence of barring, which may or may not be a stress pattern? I don't think the egg spots are reliable for I.D., as they seem to vary on all the species I am familiar with.

In the bigger picture, if I had purchased a Vic under an obviously wrong I.D., I don't think I could be comfortable breeding it under a corrected identity, just because it's too easy to run across hybrids with these fish.


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## Mschn99

AlphaWild said:


> Mschn99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AlphaWild said:
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW, it looks like Dayglow to me. But I'm no pro at this.
> 
> 
> 
> A dayglow should have the majority of the red that would be on the body in the breast, this fish does not, its along the backline.
> A dayglow should not have any major color in the roughly top quarter to third of its main body, this fish does.
> A dayglow should not have dark black vertical bars in the body, this one does.
> There are some other small coloration issues as well but those are the glaring one. The one thing the fish does have that matches the dayglow profile perfectly is the 3 egg spots.
> 
> I agree with you it shares the same body shape and apparent size as a dayglow, but the coloration doesnt totally match. I see some similarities but not enough to call it pure dayglow by any means. This is not to say that it could not be a hybrid with dayglow in it, which would be totally plausible, but its not a pure dayglow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you for pointing out the elements in question, because I was wondering what they might be. The species in question isn't familiar to me, so I was looking at the pics here for comparison: http://african-cichlid.com/Dayglow.htm In some of those pics it appeared the red could sometimes spread higher than the breast area, onto the back? There also seems to be evidence of barring, which may or may not be a stress pattern? I don't think the egg spots are reliable for I.D., as they seem to vary on all the species I am familiar with.
> 
> In the bigger picture, if I had purchased a Vic under an obviously wrong I.D., I don't think I could be comfortable breeding it under a corrected identity, just because it's too easy to run across hybrids with these fish.
Click to expand...

The dayglow pictures as well as the fish i have show some barring in the frontal area in pictures, but not much visually from my experience. Its usually one to two faint bars that is just barely there. The red does go higher up at times but just in the area above the breast from what i have seen and not as dark as yours..... and just when they are really showing, not very often. I dont think the barring is a stress pattern, i think its the most dominant coloration they can show but its not the distinct barring your seeing from looking at books an my fish

Also, they get some green/yellow into the area behind the red that usually shows not color on rare occasions as well, but its not the norm and is tough to catch on pics.

Ironically enough eggspots are not reliable on many species, but a dayglow male should show three-four large spots depending on age. No more no less. Its something in them that is very consistent in pure fish.

I have done a lot of research on dayglows, as they were my first victorian and are the reason i have so many now. They arent the pure beauty that my red mwanza are, but IMO they are the more impressive fish. People may not notice them first, but they in the end are my favorite vic i have.


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## AlphaWild

All this studying makes me want some now! While I'm not convinced I'm seeing everything you are, Mschn99, I think I'm learning what to look for in this species if I ever decide to get some. Hope it helped the original poster.


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## Mschn99

AlphaWild said:


> All this studying makes me want some now! While I'm not convinced I'm seeing everything you are, Mschn99, I think I'm learning what to look for in this species if I ever decide to get some. Hope it helped the original poster.


There are much more brilliant colored vic's out there, but i will always have dayglows even if i cant sell the fry. They are a spectacular species that i honestly think you have to own to appreciate. Part of the reason im so sure in my comments is because i not only have them, but they were my first victorian and i spent a lot of time looking at the species making sure i had what i thought i had. The differences in some vics are so subtle, and on top of that a hybrid can show coloration of multiple species. Vics are my true love and i am definitely looking to help keep the species pure with them.


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## stevemd24

could they be HAPLOCHROMIS SP. NYEREREI


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## stevemd24

Kyoga Flameback

GUESS WE CAN START with an expert that knows the true colors and markings onf a Kyoga Flame back, i have seen dozen of photos of these fish and they all slightly different, some of them look close to mine, while others are completely different

MY fish that are in question are pretty large, id say at least as big as my hand and my hands are around 8 inch's long, These guys fight each other non stop, and i have no females, that might help make is easier to identify

I bought these fish from bluegrassaquatics in augs was hoping to get a mix of females and males, I have a lot of males that do nothing big dig and fight for territory, and i need to ween out all the males so i can have a plethora of fish

anyone know if this company is known to be honest with the fish they sell?


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## stevemd24

Been doing some more digging,

Id say this is one of the closest fish to mine i have seen

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... hp?id=1569

except it says max 4 inches


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## samaki

This is not a Pundamilia nyererei at all, its morphology is too far from the phenotype of nyererei, this fish has some phytophagus/ dayglow ressemblances but it doesn't match the body color (or is it too old that the colours faded away) I think it could be an hybrid.
xris


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## stevemd24

I wrote to the store i bought my "flame backs" from telling them i was told they where not flame backs and this is what he wrote back with, 
"I'll check with the breeder today .. I must tell you that He is a consulting member of the University of Florida Aquaculture dept and a highly regarded Biologist in the field of aquaculture and a published author of many research papers and founder of the Treasure Coast Tropicals a premier supplier of African cichlids to the industry. So I am not sure of the credentials of these professionals that you speak of I am sure they must make their living in the industry to be quoted as such. Do you have the names of these individuals so I can pass that to Mr. Grebe."

what do you think?


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## AlphaWild

As we have seen in other recent posts here, even reputable sources can make mistakes. Or pass along the mistakes that were sold to them. I would hope that your supplier has pics of your fish to include when he asks his biologist. Without that, he would just be blindly defending his reputation, which is of no help to you.


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## AlphaWild

I tried to look at the supplier's pics, but he didn't have any listed for what you bought. But I did note that he isn't using pics of his own fish anyways, and the first one I saw was of the wrong species entirely.


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## stevemd24

what fish did you look at? alpha wild


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## AlphaWild

I think it was the Pund. sp. "Red Flank" (?)...the opening picture is from a member on this forum, and the second picture is of a nyererei species, clearly not the same one. To be fair, that was probably a website glitch as opposed to a mistaken I.D.


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## Mschn99

any resolution from the original seller?


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## stevemd24

*yes this is the last message he sent me, I have since given him several photos of my fish, and he has yet to reply to them*

Hi Steve,
I'm David Estes and I run the holding and shipping facility here in Florida. I pulled up your order you made back in Sept and your Flamebacks we're part of a large group of approximately 150 individuals I got from the Breeder in August. I have sold all of them already, but I can tell you that I saw nothing on these fish that would make me suspect they we're a hybrid and no one else that bought them, neither hobbyist nor professional, voiced any concern about them.
That being said, if you have concerns I certainly want to address them. If you can get me a good picture of each of your fish, we will use that as a starting point to address this. I would like the e-mail address of each of these professionals that say they are a hybrids so I can find out what it is about these flamebacks they think is not correct. I will freely share all the results with you until we are all satisfied that what you have is correct.
As far as all of your fish being males. It is mathematically possible and of the several thousand orders we have shipped over the last decade, it has happened once that I know of. Once I get the pictures of the six individual fish and we confirm they are all males, I will do my best to obtain you some females and will ship them at no charge to you. 
I look forward to hearing from you and await your pictures.
David Estes
Bluegrass Aquatics Florida Facility


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## AlphaWild

Sounds good.


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## spicoli

a photo of my kyoga flameback Supposed to be pure, i've tracked the bloodline to original importer


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## spicoli




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## samaki

Seems good


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## ratbones86

those fish in question look more like nyererei now that i look at them good. which collection point its hard to say. Reason i dont think they are the kyoga's is because their body is to tall, or full so to say...


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## samaki

Hi They aren't P.nyererei for sure
xris


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## taeniopareius

I think one of the earliest pic of Kyoga flameback was in one of the old issues of Cichlid News.


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