# sexing keyholes



## HONDO (May 4, 2008)

hi everyone, i have asked this before but i will go ahead and ask again. what are the best ways to sex keyholes? i think i have an idea but i just want to follow up.

males: longer fins and pointier forehead/nose
females: shorter fins and more rounded forehead

if i am wrong or leaving something out, please help me out.

i will try to follow up with some pics, thanks!


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## illy-d (Nov 6, 2005)

You forgot to say that it is almost impssible to sex them before they reach sexual maturity - or close to adult size, at which time the males will usually be larger.

I've never heard or noticed the "rounded forehead" as distinction before - there could be something to it though... It's important to point out that the longer/pointier fins is only a useful tool part of the time - like if you have a known male and a known female you may notice that the male has longer or pointier fins, but if you have a bunch of juveniles of unkown sex how do you tell? What if there is nipping or adverse water conditions that prohibit the growth of longer/pointier fins - you'd never know.

In my previous pair the female had pointy fins (anal & dorsal), the males fins were actually slightly rounded but, they had trailers that extended past the curve of he caudal fin - here's a pic.

The female is in the foreground (centered) and you can see she has pointy anal & dorsal fins. The male is in the background (slightly right). His anal & dorsal fin curve before ending in filament like trailers that extend past the edge (or at least to the edge) of the caudal fin. As I mentioned earlier I have heard that these filament like trailers grow best in soft, slightly acidic water... So if you're water is different then my water (which comes from the tap soft & slightly acidic) you may see different growth. Both of these fish are adults as well with the male being 4" TL.









From everything that I have read and seen with these fish the common theme is that they are notoriously difficult to sex at the best of times and downright impossible to sex most of the time... They only reason I know I had a pair was because they spawned - even then I guess one coud argue that 2 females very well could have gone throught the ritual as well and since mine ate the eggs I can't say for 100% certainty that they were fertilized - so I guess I can't say for 100% certainty that I had a proven pair... My advice is buy 6 and hope for the best. These cichlids are usually easy to rehome as they are known as peaceful/community fish - which is a misconception I might add...


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## HONDO (May 4, 2008)

thanks illy-d. i have 4 and all get along fine. one is older and the other 3 are from the same batch ( i assume, i bought them all the same time at the same lfs, same size etc). i guess they are siblings.

no problems with any of them, just was hoping to figure out what i have! thanks again, youre are very pretty.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

At least in the local pH and hardness, I can pick the sexes fairly well at about 2.5-3" SL in stores. By fin length, this IME seems like one of the species that holds true. Like *illy-d* pointed out, the rounded part isn't as useful as the length. At this 'teenager' age the females haven't yet produced the longer fins yet.

I still buy at least 4, though preferably 6-8 and let them sort it out themselves for better pair bonds. I only buy 4 if I don't have much cash on hand.


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## illy-d (Nov 6, 2005)

Yes - as teenager's or semi adults is when the fins start to become distinct - but again it's hard to note the differences unless you have two that are different... Before the semi-adult stage everybody looks alike (fin wise) IME. In fact just prior to this stage my males developed a more rounded looking dorsal fin as it started to curve downwards towards the caudal peduncle (I never thought I would use that word so I had to throw it out there) before attaining any length. If you are going by rounded vs pointy then at this stage you could very easily mix up the sexes... But regardless it's the distinction that's the important part...


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Agreed, if I am looking at a solo one ... I throw up my hands. If both sexes are available at that particular size, then I can usually spot them. But they aren't as difficult as say blue acaras.


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## HONDO (May 4, 2008)

dwarfpike, i actually had 6 originally but two have passed. i am keeping an eye out for any more to get the number back up but they arent all that common and im kind of nervous to disrupt the chemistry at this point. they get along pretty well.


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## HONDO (May 4, 2008)

let me ask this (i think i know the answer but an curious)
i have never had a "pair" before, but if i wanted to have two paired keyholes, would it be bad or even possible for two of my current group of 3 siblings pair? how would that work? if i really decide to try to get a pair i will most definetely buy more, but what would happen if two of the siblings paired on me?


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Not much. Fish don't suffer the near immediate degenerative issues with inbreeding that mammals do. After many generations it cane cuase problems, but it's not something you'll need to worry about.


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## HONDO (May 4, 2008)

ok, thank you very much


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## HONDO (May 4, 2008)

ok, thank you very much


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## illy-d (Nov 6, 2005)

What size tank again? My Keyholes got fairly territorial towards the other keyholes once the paired. Multiple pairs would probably need 2' per pair I would guess.

I had 4 in a 4 foot 48g tank and when a pair formed the weridest thing happened... The second male coloured up incredibly and defended his half of the tank as vehemently as the pair did theirs. The problem was by 2nd female had no where to go. The pair didn't want her in their end and the other male wanted nothing to do with her so she had to be moved.

The single male would swim right at the 'line of scrimmage' almost issueing a challenge to the other larger male or perhaps trying to persuade the breeding female to swim his way...


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## HONDO (May 4, 2008)

its a 75 gallon, 4 ft tank.

4 keyholes and a severum who pretty much ingores them.


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## HONDO (May 4, 2008)

to add, my intention has been to hopefully have a pair form and return the rest. problem was that 2 of them died as youngsters and now i have only 4. from what i have read, it will be tough to have a pair form out of a group of 4. i am perfectly content with the 4, but if a pair happened to form i would move the others.


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## illy-d (Nov 6, 2005)

Well then it sounds like your tank is something to be envious of! I want to keep both Severums & Keyholes again and I think it's a great idea to keep them together (I wish I had of tried that).

FWIW it is my experience that both Keyholes and Severums like to eat Tetras - so if you have tetras and they start to disappear on you either species could be the culprit.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Yeah, glowlights didn't last long with my keyholes once they got about 4" or so ... they have such small mouths compared to their size, I was sure the glowlights were safe. Next time I'll go with a taller tetra from Guyana, like head and tail lights or four eye phantoms.


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## HONDO (May 4, 2008)

i actually condensed this tank and the 29 i tore down after i moved. part of this combining tanks had me move all the tetras into this tank. i kepy my 8 large black skirts (which i LOVE) and about 8 cardinals/neons and 6 rummynose. I am down to 8 blackskirts and 2 rummynose, ha. I figured they would not last long with my severum, hes sneaky, always gets them at night. I was actually thinking that I could add a small school of bleeding hearts with my current 8 blackskirts.

Does anyone have an opinion on that? too crowded, or maybe just add a few more blackskirts? the blackskirts are really cool. they get very big and i can find some seriously beefy ones to add that wont get eaten. some of mine are bigger than the keyholes which i bought xmas eve 2008.

illy-d, i am really enjoying this tank so far. the sev is my man, but the keyholes are really fun to watch, all with their own little hiding spots. my sev always comes around, they hide and he tries to get into their hiding spots. i watch him go upside down sometimes trying to fit with them, ha!


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## HONDO (May 4, 2008)

let me ask this. in my perfect world, i would have a 180 (future goal).
with my current severum and 4 keyholes, would a chocolate work well? i dont see any reason why not, but i always love hearing everyones opinions.

i am really falling in love with peaceful sa cichlids, large and small! has anyone ever tried this combination?

by the way, my bn pleco died yesterday... im bummed, i have no idea what happened. he was pretty young, but i thought he was gonna be around for a while.


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## illy-d (Nov 6, 2005)

Everything I have read and heard from other hobbyists regarding Chocolates is that they are for the most part 'tamer' then Severums (who at times can be nasty). I thnk it would work in a 180g but I would resist buying the Chocolate until I had the 180g set-up.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

I don't think I would trust them with keyholes. Yes they have a rep of being peacefull, but there are plenty of stories out there of them snapping and killing 'wussy' fish like oscars and sevs and such. Enough so I would put them with things that would know how to defend themselves against a nice, thick fish ... like pikes and large acaras. But note, I've only had them in a LFS setting, not in my own tanks.


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## HONDO (May 4, 2008)

thank you guys, good info. illy-d, this is purely day dreaming. i wont be buying anything.


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## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

if u look at the botom of your fish just b4 the anal fin there is a small think sticking out (easier to see when the fish has plenty of food in the belly) if it is really thin and pointy it is a male if is is wider and shorter is is a female (feed your fish up b 4 u check it really makes it easier to see)


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## jamesman_1994 (Jun 23, 2009)

look at their breeding tube just infront of their anal fin, if it is short and fat it is a girl and if it is slightly longer much skinnier and pointy it is a male (it is much easier to see the breeding tubes when the fish has a very full stomach)


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