# Tropheus Moorii Kiriza Yellow



## Malawi Mad

Tropheus Moorii Yellow 
Had anyone here have any experience with these. What other Tropheus can they be kept with etc! How aggressive are they , any pictures


----------



## Malawi Mad

ANY ONE :?


----------



## 24Tropheus

Do you mean Kiriza or some special line bred more yellow guy?
Kiriza experiences here.
http://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=178


----------



## Malawi Mad

__
https://flic.kr/p/2171667675

Like this


----------



## IrkedCitizen

Malawi Mad said:


> __
> https://flic.kr/p/2171667675
> 
> Like this


Those are what they call "Golden Kiriza" and they are line bred. That is a man-made variant and I don't know anyone who has kept them.

I personally will stick the the natural evolution variants. But to each their own.


----------



## Malawi Mad

I quite like them hoping to get some one day ! They are very different ! :wink:


----------



## NorthShore

If you can find them, you can expect to pay 3 or 4 times what you would pay for other tropheus.


----------



## TitoTee

I think that those yellows are amazing. I can never get enough pics of them and I haven't seen that pic - thanks for sharing.

Yellow Kiriza are like line bred Discus - have lots of cash on hand.

keeping fish in a purest fashion and trying to convince others to do so is like trying to convince everyone to follow your religion - futile.

Back to the kiriza - awesome - the color is so nice - an all yellow Troph.

These would go really well with a colony of Red Trophs!


----------



## Malawi Mad

Dew to the fact that these fish are line bred, do they breed true
:roll: 
ie are they fry all yellow ?


----------



## flashg

A man made tropheus! Pish posh you will not catch me with any! :zz: To each their own I guess! :roll:


----------



## jordanroda

man made or not...I like them too...


----------



## Malawi Mad

How were they created, what did they breed together to get this fish all yellow ? :roll:


----------



## IrkedCitizen

Malawi Mad said:


> How were they created, what did they breed together to get this fish all yellow ? :roll:


They are bred by Burundi Farms in Africa and I doubt they will tell you what they bred to get them like that.


----------



## Malawi Mad

Will their offspring be yellow? :-?


----------



## CrimsonHelkite

There offspring will be worthless mudblood's just like the parent's.


----------



## TitoTee

CrimsonHelkite said:


> There offspring will be worthless mudblood's just like the parent's.


Honestly - this is an insulting statement and offensive as well.

Understand sir or mam that these fish naturally crossbreed from time to time and is how they established different variants throughout the lake.

And forget the science - it's just a downright insulting statement :?

Keep your religion to yourself :thumb:


----------



## 24Tropheus

The only guys who could possibly know what has gone into their make up and weather they will breed true would be I guess the guys who "made" em.

If I had gone to all the trouble and cost of making a fish I sure would not release the details of how to reproduce them again and thus undermine my market.

Each to there own and all that but for me the reasons for not touching these guys with a barge pole are pretty clear.


----------



## lloyd

personally, i doubt this fish is a result of any crossbreeding attempt. i would suspect it to be the result of a genetic mutation. they are all too blanched of other colors, to NOT suspect, that someone is playing melanin reduction games. the eye and egg spots are especially wiped of other color. get past the yellow, and this fish looks ghostly, IMO. pass the barge pole by me too, please.


----------



## CrimsonHelkite

It's not an insult I think if these fish were natural they would be the new rave, so they are mudbloods. :zz:


----------



## 24Tropheus

Mate just trying to stop you getting burned.
And thanks for showing them.

Anyone remember the last (agree prob mutant, line bred) lot to come out, maybe colour enhanced))? Was the mutation made more likely in various ways? (prob never know)
Red Pheonix

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k35/2 ... eonix3.jpg

Some guys lost a bundle on em I think. :wink:


----------



## flashg

Red Phoenix... :lol: WHo in their right mind would buy that krap?  :zz: If you want something like that stick with malawi and get and albino rubecent. :lol:


----------



## jordanroda

Wow!  
I still like them!
:drooling:


----------



## Malawi Mad

Well I took the plunged and ordered some they arrive in 2 weeks. We are extremely limited on Africans especially, Tangs here in NZ these will be new to the country and I will breed them and grow up some fry to see what happens!


----------



## myjohnson

Dude, let the haters hate!

If you are getting some Tropheus Moorii Kiriza Yellow that's sweet!

I would like to see where people are getting information from to think that this sp. is crossbreed, or was this just word of month?

I can't find any information on them.

So would a interracial human be mudbloods? Plz keep your religion to yourself. :zz:


----------



## IrkedCitizen

myjohnson said:


> Dude, let the haters hate!
> 
> If you are getting some Tropheus Moorii Kiriza Yellow that's sweet!
> 
> I would like to see where people are getting information from to think that this sp. is crossbreed, or was this just word of month?
> 
> I can't find any information on them.
> 
> So would a interracial human be mudbloods? Plz keep your religion to yourself. :zz:


These fish are Golden Kiriza they are line bred at Burundi Farms in Africa.

Comparing humans to fish that have been selectively bred is ridiculous. We have been on this planet for thousands of years and as such we are mixed. There is not one single pure bred person on this planet. But this mixture is achieved over time which is referred to as "evolution." But for a company to put certain fish inside of tanks and specifically breed them to get the right color is not natural nor does it follow the curve of things.

Surely one day there might be an ALL YELLOW tropheus inside Lake Tanganyika but right now there isn't. Until they are readily available from inside the lake I personally am not going to buy the line bred fish regardless of whatever anyone says.

I haven't put my "religion" out there but since you typed to keep it to ourselves now I feel the need to spout it to high heaven.

If he is happy with his fish that's fine. I hope it works out for him. However a lot of people have bought these different line bred fish and spent a lot of money on them to have them not breed to the color they are.

The reason being is that the line breeder takes only the fish that has the mutation from a clutch of however many babies the mom produces. This could be 1 in every 50-100 fry if not more that have the mutation. So the company breeds and produced 500 fry and finally got a colony of 50 fish to the color they were after but that doesn't mean that they are going to have more babies of the same color.


----------



## flashg

I agree with IrkedCitizen!!! They are not a cross, but a human made line breed! Until this happens in the wild you will NOT catch me with any either. And as far as someones comment about crosses happen in the wild, well this is true and it is how we get new species! BUT this does NOT make it right for man to step in!!!!! UNTIL IT HAPPENS IN NATURE AND NATURE ALONE AND THERE IS A GOOD POPULATION IN LAKE TANGANYIKA, THEY WILL ALWAYS BE MUDBLOODS AND MAN MADE POSERS!!! 
If you ask me hybrids and line breeds take all the fun out of the hobby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOTE the only exception IMO for line breeding is picking the best colored fish out of a wild group to get the best fry... None of this breeding the mutant to make a new fish junk! If you want to do it stay away from Tanganyikan fish and stick with guppies or the "ink-injected blood parrot"!!!!
With that said I have nothing else to say about the matter.


----------



## myjohnson

Again, I see no link to any type of authority on the matter whatsoever. From what it seems....all this information is word of month. Hearsay in my book (until proven otherwise).


----------



## IrkedCitizen

myjohnson said:


> Again, I see no link to any type of authority on the matter whatsoever. From what it seems....all this information is word of month. Hearsay in my book (until proven otherwise).


Hearsay? Word of mouth? Until proven otherwise?

How about you prove to us where inside the lake these and the other questionable tropheus come from?


----------



## myjohnson

I've already written I have not found any information on them....read all previous post before posting please.

I'm not the one with a position here. I can careless if it was crossbred or not. I just don't think people should base their ideas on unfounded information.

All I'm saying is if Malawi Mad likes them than great for him.

I personally never seen this sp. of trophs before and was just wondering what and where it was from. but instead of believing everything I read upon first impression I would like some authority that's all. No need to get all defensive.


----------



## IrkedCitizen

My statement still stands. You cannot prove where they come from the lake. Therefore, with all of this "hearsay" must not be hearsay. They are line bred at Fishes of Burundi in their farms.

There have been several people who have been there and seen them. What exactly Fishes of Burundi crosses to get them that color is a mystery. They aren't about to disclose that information because then anyone could make their own. The Burundi Farms are a business. These fish aren't cheap.

I already stated that it is fine if Malawi Mad likes them and that he bought them. It is his money. I simply stated that I would never buy them.

When you state for people to keep their "religion to ourselves" it is pretty hard not to get "defensive." I keep tropheus. I spent my good well earned money on them. My religion is to keep species as "pure" as possible. Hybrids might be cool looking but there is no reason for them to be sold at huge mark up because of someone accidental mixing and the outcome turned out the way it did. They are hybrids and nothing more. Pure species should demand the higher price and not the other way around.

Hopefully all works out for him and the fish live long healthy lives and he gets his money worth. But if he expects to get fry that look they same as those parents he might not like the outcome.

That's all.


----------



## geoff_tropheus

I am sorry that I do not have the time to post more, becuase I am off for vacation.

The Golden Kiriza is a linebred Tropheus from Burundi Farms. It is regularly imported into Europe and into the US by Old World Exotic.

Laif Demason wrote that they have created a linebred Kiriza that in 1/4 of all the offspring, they will produce a solid yellow fry.

The solid yellow occurs naturally in the lake very similiar to natural albino color. It is a degenerate gene. Regardless, the fish will produce offspring that is solid yellow, but will also mostly produce regular colored Kiriza, but because of the inbreeding to create them, they are very degenerative in size and color. For me that is not wanted in my aquariums.

For everyone else, that is up to them what they want, its your tank, your fish. I would appreciate it stays that way. :lol:

For more information on the matter please open the July 2008 edition, and if you want more either call Laif Demason, or order the copy for yourself and read more.

http://cichlidnews.com/indexwin.html

Take care,

Geoff


----------



## geoff_tropheus

I am sorry that I do not have the time to post more, because I am off for vacation. So to answers as many questions as I can...

The Golden Kiriza is a line bred Tropheus from Burundi Farms. It is regularly imported into Europe and into the US by Old World Exotic.

Laif Demason wrote that they have created a line bred Kiriza that in 1/4 of all the offspring; they will produce a solid yellow fry.

The solid yellow occurs naturally in the lake very similiar to natural albino color. It is a degenerate gene. Regardless, the fish will produce offspring that is solid yellow, but will also mostly produce regular colored Kiriza, but because of the inbreeding to create them, they are very degenerative in size and color. For me that is not wanted in my aquariums.

For everyone else, that is up to them what they want, its your tank, your fish. I would appreciate it stays that way. :lol:

For more information on the matter please open the April 2008 edition, and if you want more either call Laif Demason, or order the copy for yourself and read more.

http://cichlidnews.com/indexwin.html

Take care,

Geoff


----------



## myjohnson

thanks for the link geoff.


----------



## Derrote

Hi. That is not correct in all Points. Here in Germany live a man who got over 10 years ago a yellow Kiriza famale from his normal Kiriza group. This female he took and breed and breed. After time he hade some of this yellow Kiriza wich give the yellow color dominat to the juveniles. I visited him last year and saw that he has a lot of wonderful nearly complete yellow Kiriza. And they comes difinitely not from Fishes of burundi!!!!!!!!!! best regards sven


----------



## IrkedCitizen

Derrote said:


> Hi. That is not correct in all Points. Here in Germany live a man who got over 10 years ago a yellow Kiriza famale from his normal Kiriza group. This female he took and breed and breed. After time he hade some of this yellow Kiriza wich give the yellow color dominat to the juveniles. I visited him last year and saw that he has a lot of wonderful nearly complete yellow Kiriza. And they comes difinitely not from Fishes of burundi!!!!!!!!!! best regards sven


Well then that guy must have gotten lucky. Because Fishes of Burundi does indeed line breed them to be that color.


----------



## Dave

flashg said:


> A man made tropheus! Pish posh you will not catch me with any! :zz: To each their own I guess! :roll:


These are NOT man made. That term is typically reserved for fish like the flowerhorn, parrots, or OB peacocks. They came from WC fish that threw fry that turned all or mostly yellow. The person that founded this line, then began line breeding to fix the yellow. They are line bred, they are not man made in the sense that they are not hybrids.


----------



## flashg

Dave.,
Do you find colonies of them in the wild? Not that I know of besides the occasional mutant... If the mutants are line bred it takes a mans hand to do this... Thus making them man made in my book! But if that's your thing it's a free country man! :wink:


----------



## dkreef

its funny how freshwater guys hate those man made or hybrids so much. in saltwater if you ever see a fish that was a hyrid, ppl are paying 10times more for them. i guess cuz saltwater fish just dont mix like cichlids do and therefore are rare.


----------



## Dave

I didn't say that I like them, I am just trying to make a point. Man-made is typically reserved for hybrids. Linebreeding should be used in this case. From what I understand, yes these do occasionally occur in the wild. Even albinos occassionally occur in the wild, but it takes line breeding to establish them.


----------



## flashg

I agree with you Dave... I don't think they are a hybrid, just a naughty linebreed. :lol: Sorry if I came off as hostile not my intent. I just think man should NOT aid with Dawrins evolutionary theory... Survival of the fittest if they are supposed to survive we would find an abundance of them in the wild... BUt we don't and I'm sure there is a reason for that!

On another note I feel it is OK to pick the best colored fish out of a group and line breed them to result in the most colorful fry from natural occurring species! :thumb:


----------



## Dave

flashg said:


> On another note I feel it is OK to pick the best colored fish out of a group and line breed them to result in the most colorful fry from natural occurring species! :thumb:


 You do realize that this statement is in contrast to what you have been arguing?


----------



## flashg

No not really... For example, if I were to hand pick the best looking Ikola kaisers out of a wild import and breed them... I would still have Ikola kaisers right? Just the best looking ones... No where did I say lets pick out the mutant and try and get pure black kaisers or pure yellow ones and name them after myself or call them American Black Kaisers... (Like German Red peacocks)
IMO there is a BIG difference! I think maybe I would call that selective breeding! They would breed in the wild, the mutants usually die off! Maybe if they are luck they will survive evolution and become and natural species maybe... Is that trying to make a new man made line breed? I think NOT!!!!!

Anyone else have an opinion?


----------



## BrownBullhead

FlashG: I don't ride the train of thought you are aboard. I agree with "Dave" that you appear to be contradicting your earlier statements in this thread.

The recessive (i.e. degenerate) gene that causes the "mutation" (yellow pigment) does not "line breed" in nature only because it is unlikely (not impossible!) that fish carrying the gene could isolate from the group of thousands of others of their kind, and selectively breed only with other "recessive gene" carriers. "Yellow" specimens of the species are essentially "forced" to reproduce with "normal" fish, thus their absolute yellow gene recedes further; think of it as the bad gene being "hidden" amonst the genetic code.

In the aquarium, much as you imply that you have your reasons for manually selecting fish with what you consider "superior colour" (genetics at work!?) to selectively reproduce with other "superior gene" fish, to produce a desired "line" of "colourful fish", it could be conversely presented that the person linebreeding the "yellow" (i.e. recessive gene) fish are endeavouring to achieve the same ends as you. You are looking to maximize yellow band quality and melanin rich black tones, and they are looking to maximize the "yellow factor".

Much as the "recessive" fish cannot isolate and reproduce exclusive of the "normal" fish, the "normal" fish (the ones you consider of superior quality) also cannot reproduce exclusively. Generation after generation, the absolute yellow gene remains, it has become "recessed". The A+ examples of "normal" fish are also scarce in nature, much like the "pure yellows", since they cannot be exclusive to each other.

Similar concepts dictate human reproduction, such that, barring variables induced by man himself, the **** Sapiens will have some "recessive" examples (think of certain illnesses, deformities, etc.) and will have some "progressive" examples (people with "blessed" bodies, etc.), and the "progressive" examples would be considered by some to be on the edge of the evolutionary curve for our species - "Survival of the fittest" (Literally!)


----------



## flashg

I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at... I simply mean I would breed the best looking "normal" fish and weed out the ones with goofy fins or mutant color etc... (The ones that would probably not survive in the wild) I would NOT try to purposely breed for the recessive traits. Like you said what are the chances of the mutants isolating themselves from the rest... I simply don't want the gangly ones or the bland ones is all... I did NOT mean I would inbreed generation after generation after generation to get what I want... I would just pick the elite fish to start with... Chances are nature would do this on its own anyway! The best brightest male wins right?

I don't understand how you could think this is the same as breeding and breeding and breeding to get a pure yellow fish that probably NO diver has ever seen in Tanganyika!

So you are saying you would put the goofy ones in with you top notch colony then?


----------



## CrimsonHelkite

I just want to know one thing, is somebody working on a pink princess kaiser? :thumb:


----------



## Malawi Mad

myjohnson said:


> I've already written I have not found any information on them....read all previous post before posting please.
> 
> I'm not the one with a position here. I can careless if it was crossbred or not. I just don't think people should base their ideas on unfounded information.
> 
> All I'm saying is if Malawi Mad likes them than great for him.
> 
> I personally never seen this sp. of trophs before and was just wondering what and where it was from. but instead of believing everything I read upon first impression I would like some authority that's all. No need to get all defensive.


Just a small correction, Him is a She :thumb:

okay with these been yellow already picking the best offspring from each batch, and then breed them either with each other brother to sister or daughter to father will be okay to produce more yellow fry :? What are the normally fry called then ? :-? kaiser?


----------



## noddy

I'm working on an egg and bacon on a kaiser.
Malawi Mad. I'm not sure what the fry would look like if they weren't all yellow. I guess they could look like normal kariza's or, they could be a drab, "fugly", unsellable fish that you will have to flush. :-?


----------



## Malawi Mad

Thats okay I can live, and deal with that :thumb:


----------



## noddy

Well then, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, if you like the fish, that's all that matters. I just got back from meeting with a local importer that said he would take them in a heartbeat. I have seen the prices for tropheus in OZ, I hate to think what these guys would go for in N.Z. Enjoy :thumb:


----------



## Malawi Mad

noddy said:


> Well then, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, if you like the fish, that's all that matters. I just got back from meeting with a local importer that said he would take them in a heartbeat. I have seen the prices for tropheus in OZ, I hate to think what these guys would go for in N.Z. Enjoy :thumb:


Well it's not every day that tropheus come in to NZ so I am thrilled to have gotten my hand on these ! Will take a while to get them breeding, time will tell how and what comes out of the breeding ! :roll:


----------



## IrkedCitizen

Can you at least post some pictures of them at their size right now? Then you can post more when they are breeding size just to show comparison of their color during growth.


----------



## Malawi Mad

Sure, I can as soon as I get them this week ! They are young adults


----------



## flashg

Malawi Mad said:


> What are the normally fry called then ? :-? kaiser?


A lot of people refer to them as kaiser II.


----------



## TitoTee

Man this thread is hilarious!!!

So many religions it isn't even funny!

so Far I've heard...

Darwinism - an unproven theory - yes, it's still a theory :thumb:

Puretism - yep, I made that one up. Somehow, somebody came up with the notion that you must keep pure natural strains of fish or be banished to eternal fish sheol :lol:

People here act like they have dived in the entire lake. You don't know what's going on under the waters unless you've dived them all.

If someone wants to line breed a fish for a certain color - they have every right - these fish we keep and breed in our tanks are in my opinion no longer a part of the natural environment. So therefore, they are all "unnatural" in that sense. And I think the hobbyist is allowed to do anything he/she wants under that setting. I am however opposed to hybridizing since it makes a real mess of the gene pool - unless you are a proffessional and know exactly what you want to produce to create a new strain of fish - don't partake in it.

This is my PERSONAL perspective - Tropheus are amazing fish, beautiful to watch and with that being said.....

They are rather DRAB! Yes I said it - so if someone can spice it up - then by all MEANS do so and thank you for your hard work :thumb:

Oh, on the subject of religions since I see people want to share them here - and yes, if you beleive in what you are saying to the point of passionate argument then IMHO it is a type of religion - I'm a Christian and that's what I believe :thumb:

Attn: Moderator - if my mention of my faith is deemed ofensive in this thread then please address the Darwinism as well since it can be deemed offensive by me - at this point it is not.


----------



## noddy

Come on man. Let's talk about fish.


----------



## CrimsonHelkite

Feed the mudbloods to the front's. :thumb:


----------



## NorthShore

Let's stick to the topic, folks.


----------



## SLIGHTLY STOOPID

* It is a degenerate gene*. Regardless, the fish will produce offspring that is solid yellow, but will also mostly produce regular colored Kiriza, but because of the inbreeding to create them, *they are very degenerative in size and color*

People are into fish for different reasons. The person who buys a mutant tropheus is also the same type who might buy a freaky looking goldfish with bubble eyes or a deformed body. Many animals and pets are just ornaments to some ...

... like Paris Hilton and her accessory dog.


----------



## Malawi Mad

It was never my intention to purchase these we put a order in for Ikola and these happened to arrive. It is almost impossible to get new Tropheus into NZ.

I am happy to give this lot a home at lease this way they are not spread all over the country one in every other persons tank.

I will keep them and if they do breed I will keep and grow up some fry to see how they turn out. Will happily feed off any, not up to standard to the Nimbochromis Livingstonii.


----------



## myjohnson

Malawi Mad,

Sorry for calling you a "him." :wink:

I support you getting the fishes. I think they look great. I hope you can post some pictures for us. Please keep us updated. :thumb:


----------



## myjohnson

Dave said:


> flashg said:
> 
> 
> 
> On another note I feel it is OK to pick the best colored fish out of a group and line breed them to result in the most colorful fry from natural occurring species! :thumb:
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize that this statement is in contrast to what you have been arguing?
Click to expand...

Flashg,

I agree with Dave, your statements are contradicting one another. Reread what you are typing. The theories that you are referring to are not as different as you think. Just think about it.


----------



## flashg

If it makes you feel any better! Explain how they contradict! I also said I had nothing more to say, but I keep getting egged on. :lol:

Beside if it is all Mad Malawi can get, some tropheus are better than none I guess! :?


----------



## myjohnson

I'm not egging you on. I'm not asking you to reply. I'm just saying.....think about it.


----------



## myjohnson

Found a cool link with some all yellow trophs, but they are albinos I think.

http://www.rare-malawis.de/fish.php?id=52


----------



## flashg

myjohnson said:


> I'm not egging you on. I'm not asking you to reply. I'm just saying.....think about it.


Ok ok... It is some what the same I will give you that... But one concept is preserving natures pleasures while the other is exploiting it! I will say no more. Peace!


----------



## geoff_tropheus

The solid yellow Kiriza occurs naturally for estimation purpose, say 1 in 1000 fry. Unlike other Tropheus that are isolated, I think these "oddballs" still integrate in the groups and breed because they are at the same depth and same location and same species/sub species.

In the other mixed areas of the lake that has been reported on, they are occuring at different depths, or are of different species duboisi-brichardi-moorii-annectens..etc..

What Burundi Farms has done is kept all those 1 in 1000 that occured naturally, and has worked with them to where those fish are now producing the "Golden Kiriza" 1 out of 4. That is linebreeding.


----------



## Malawi Mad

Okay I receive these guy yesterday and have settled them in to a 5Foot tank with some Pembas. They are only *fry* and not young adult I we were told 

I will take some picture over the weekend and post them here !


----------



## lloyd

i can't look or i might want them too... opcorn:


----------



## Malawi Mad

Well here they are ! They don't look like much but time will tell :fish:


----------



## deelay

Here is a sample from sweden, http://www.ciklid.org/forum/attachment. ... 1217974862 ... they are imported from burundi.
Starting be get very yellow at the size om 6-7 cm and they are not as agressiv as the normal kiriza, so far.


----------



## noddy

Please keep us up to date on their developement. They look pretty cool, not what I was expecting though.


----------



## Malawi Mad

noddy said:


> Please keep us up to date on their developement. They look pretty cool, not what I was expecting though.


Was a bit disappointed to as I was expecting 8cm fish :? Not that I am complaining time will reveal all. Thank for all the info and criticism :wink: I will update every so often :thumb:


----------



## Malawi Mad

deelay said:


> Here is a sample from sweden, http://www.ciklid.org/forum/attachment. ... 1217974862 ... they are imported from burundi.
> Starting be get very yellow at the size om 6-7 cm and they are not as agressiv as the normal kiriza, so far.


Wow nice thanks for sharing! :thumb:


----------



## geoff_tropheus

In the last photo did the fish in the top right corner come with them as well?


----------



## Malawi Mad

No they are My young Tropheous, Pemba :wink:


----------



## deelay

one of the biggest in my group, he is getting more yellow everyday now.


----------



## Malawi Mad

deelay said:


> one of the biggest in my group, he is getting more yellow everyday now.


Wow to cute  Did your ones look anything like the fry I have ? The lot I have are only around 2.5 -3cm!


----------



## Furcifer158

CrimsonHelkite said:


> There offspring will be worthless mudblood's just like the parent's.


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :thumb:


----------



## deelay

Malawi Mad said:


> Wow to cute  Did your ones look anything like the fry I have ? The lot I have are only around 2.5 -3cm!


Im afraid not... whould never have guessed from yuor pict that is was kiriza gold... but i can be wrong, time will tell.


----------



## RayQ

They remind me of Ikola KaiserII - just with faded front and rear sections, I am interested to see if they all develop to full "gold" coloration.

Ray


----------



## Malawi Mad

Time will tell either way I am glad to have some more , will see how they develop if they don't turn out to be their of them I start to panic :-?


----------



## destinyends

Hi,

I also ordered this fish too. And they are NOT man-made. I agree on that. Some members always ask why we cant find in the wild a full yellow kiriza. I guess they have less knowledge about tropheus biotope or forgotten few points about tropheus. Tropheus feed on rocks .Thats correct. And they survive by hiding among those rocks. They usually are found at shores or near-shores. And the killing point is a fish slim and omnivore visits these rocks at night and usually feeds on these fishes hiding among rocks. Tropheus is one of those preys. I couldnt remember that predator fish's name but who knows will add its name in this post. 
So what I mean is even this fish occurs at wild with this color ,it will be a good meal for other predators because of not be able too hide by discoloring itself and adapt like camouflage. So there may have few yellow kirizas in nature but they will never have chance to reach a number that will make your mind that they exists in wild. I hope some day I will come across with one of them while swimming in Tanganyika


----------



## TitoTee

opcorn:

Keep it comin...

:lol:


----------



## SLIGHTLY STOOPID

> So there may have few yellow kirizas in nature but they will never have chance to reach a number that will make your mind that they exists in wild.


Wrong. Please read the entire thread

:lol: :lol: :roll: :lol: :lol: :roll: :lol: :lol: opcorn:


----------



## flashg

RayQ said:


> They remind me of Ikola KaiserII - just with faded front and rear sections, I am interested to see if they all develop to full "gold" coloration.
> 
> Ray


What the heck is an Ikola Kaiser II? :-? Don't tell me you are crossing Ikola and Kiriza now! :roll:


----------



## destinyends

Anyway, line.breeding, recessive genes or etc.. The important thing is what will be the AFTERMATH?  If you dont introduce thi fish in Tanganyika the it has no harm to wild ,even so it helps to prevent wild tropheus species in Tanganyika getting extinct by being popular among Tropheus variants  Because if you are right we arent able to find WC Gold Kiriza in wild 

At the end every discussion should have an end. But this is getting into moral ,ethic and religous matters. So if your thoughts depend on one of these matters then we willnt have an conclusion. Maybe voting in a survey will give us an idea of point of view among this community.
Some should do a survey in this forum asking about those fishes line breeded


----------



## destinyends

sorry double post


----------



## myjohnson

You double posting is not a good end. opcorn:


----------



## TitoTee

I think the comment about moral, ethics and religious matters is right on - and they don't belong here and that includes unproven theories. Also, someone else made a fantastic comment - and that is that if the "New" strain of fish is not introduced into the lake then no crime is done.

Same as with the Discus - I think all of those beautiful new colors are fantastic for ornamental fish keeping (yes, that is what you are doing :lol: ) but they should never be introduced into the Amazon.

I personally cannot wait for stronger linebred colors to appear in Tropheus - it will difinitely make me want to buy more of them. I don't like to spend money of drab fish. Do I love fish keeping - yes. Do I love wild life - yes. But when it comes down to it - what I am doing is keeping fish for ornamental purposes - breeding and dancing are an added bonus. Therefore - I would like for the fish to be as ornamental as possible. This is easy to do with most Marine fish on the market - since by nature they make for superior ornaments.

Now - if you like to keep fish because you can't get over watching them breed and do territorial dances that's fine but you must understand and respect the hobbyist who mostly will want to keep the fish in a tank for ornamental purposes.

I think that's how so much friction occurs on fish keeping sites. People keep fish for different reasons and no one group has a right to monopolize an opinion or stance on keeping fish.

I say keep on with the Yellow Kiriza's and may they turn even more yellow :dancing:


----------



## 24Tropheus

CrimsonHelkite said:


> I just want to know one thing, is somebody working on a pink princess kaiser? :thumb:


If not I bet they will start now they know folk who will buy em. :lol:

I guess its not that there is anything wrong with line bred (selecting features you like even if from degenerative or mutant allels/genes) just there is so much right with wild type. :wink:

Natural behaviour, natural fry protection, natural amounts of predictable agression etc.
Money going to fish catchers where the fish come from rather than breeders elsewere etc.

Interesting to see what the behaviour of these guys turns out to be as well as thier size, fin ray count etc. Wonder if they still fall within the orginal description of Sp Black or not?


----------



## RayQ

> RayQ wrote:
> They remind me of Ikola KaiserII - just with faded front and rear sections, I am interested to see if they all develop to full "gold" coloration.
> 
> Ray
> 
> What the heck is an Ikola Kaiser II? Don't tell me you are crossing Ikola and Kiriza now!


My mistake - should read sp. Ikola Kaiser - I don't know why I added the "II" - see the link.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1867

Ray


----------



## 24Tropheus

24Tropheus said:


> CrimsonHelkite said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just want to know one thing, is somebody working on a pink princess kaiser? :thumb:
> 
> 
> 
> If not I bet they will start now they know folk who will buy em. :lol:
> 
> I guess its not that there is anything wrong with line bred (selecting features you like even if from degenerative or mutant allels/genes) just there is so much right with wild type. :wink:
> 
> Natural behaviour, natural fry protection, natural amounts of predictable agression etc.
> Money going to fish catchers where the fish come from rather than breeders elsewere etc.
> 
> Interesting to see what the behaviour of these guys turns out to be as well as thier size, fin ray count etc. Wonder if they still fall within the orginal description of Sp Black or not?
Click to expand...

Silly me just reolised Sp Black never has been properly described and recognised so I guess we have only the moorii description to go on for em?


----------



## geoff_tropheus

I have read and seen Kiriza and Kaiser II mean the exact same fish. It just depends on where your getting them. Older importers call them Kaiser II's and older books call them that as well. Newer descriptions call them Kiriza and most people call them Kiriza. Kaiser II's is more 80's early 90's description for Kiriza.

The Golden Kiriza in its form today in the MARKET is a line breed fish of a NATURAL occuring defect like albino is. IT DOES OCCUR in the WILD and is part of the natural scheme of things. They are 100% Kiriza and will be that till they die.

The Line breeding that Burundi Farms has done has made such that their genetic pool, through inbreeding the "defective ones", creates the "Golden" all yellow in about 25% of all fry produced from those fish.


----------



## 24Tropheus

Dysgenics  
What happens to the 75% (more normal ones) ?


----------



## lloyd

24Tropheus said:


> What happens to the 75% (more normal ones) ?


 that would be the cull ratio. no? :?


----------



## geoff_tropheus

No one but someone with direct contact with Burundi Farms could answer that.

I just hope that they are not put in with the Regular Kiriza pondraised.

My suspect would be after time and effort to develop the operation, they would justify the price of the "Golden" guys because they are killing 75% of the offspring.

In all honesty, I think that the changing color of Kiriza to a more orange/red almost Bemba like state is the direct result of the operation. If you look at older Kiriza/Kasier II photos those fish were black and yellow, little or no orange. In the last 2-3 years worth of Shipments I have seen of Kiriza there is a lot of orange in them. Who knows..maybee someone back at the farms made a mistake and added bemba to the mix. WHo knows...


----------



## flashg

destinyends said:


> If you dont introduce thi fish in Tanganyika the it has no harm to wild


Ok this is the best argument I have heard so far! :thumb:


----------



## destinyends

I think I think and I think but this quote freaks me out folks.... :roll: :? :x



> What happens to the 75% (more normal ones) ?


----------



## SLIGHTLY STOOPID

Tito your posts are just hilarious. If you were really into it for just ornamental reasons you would pick something other than tropheus to keep. Right?

.....


----------



## Malawi Mad

Okay I can neither confirm nor deny that these fish I have are if fact the so called Golden Kasier. I will grow them up and see what they turn out to be. My apologies for the confusion !

But thanks for all the fantastic info coming from this what a learning curb :thumb:

They are a light yellow through out the entire body with a bit of black along the edges of their bodies . The name they come in with was Yellow Tropheus. :-?

I could, be wrong suggesting they are "Golden" when I search for info before I got them, all info I got was pointed to that direction. Now that I have them it would seem they are not.

So I really don't know what they are but I am still happy to have them. I will keep them and grow them. Theses little ugly ducklings could still turn out to be swans Or maybe some other yellow pure Tropheus or not! !!! :wink:

Sad to know that they cull so many


----------



## TitoTee

SLIGHTLY STOOPID said:


> Tito your posts are just hilarious. If you were really into it for just ornamental reasons you would pick something other than tropheus to keep. Right?
> 
> .....


Glad to be of service :lol:

I cannot afford salt water nor have the proper place for a salt water soo......

Yes, I am keeping my Dubs as Or na Mental :lol:


----------



## Malawi Mad

Update pictures  What do you think ?? :? 
Last pic has a Pemba, he too wanted to be photograph!


----------



## geoff_tropheus

If I was to bet, I'd say not Golden Kiriza.

But from the pics they look like Kiriza, and a couple look like Kiriza with wide bands.

It ahs been so long since I seen Kiriza fry that I cannot remember if Kiriza fry has wide yellow then goes to narrow in adult hood.

I think that is right, so...I think they look like regular Kiriza. But then again that is what you purchased, they may yet still change in color... :?


----------



## Malawi Mad

They came in as yellow moori could be anything ? will be happy if they are kaiser


----------



## Jamie C

Guys and Girls,

Honestly, I don't know why you are all going on about this crossbred ****. None of you know the genetics of the fish in Lake Tanganyika so i'd stop assuming that you do.

As far as we know we could all be keeping crossbred Tropheus. When it all started there would have been a couple of variants of T's. How do you think we got the other variants guys? Yeah, it's naturaly crossbreeding but what makes it any different then to breeding them in our tanks? 
Fair enough it is a stimulated environment that our fish live in but in the end, if the fish want to cross in our tanks they will do it! I have seen numerous variants of fish cross. Take for example, Joey (Aqualung) has had his Ikola (Black sp.) cross with a Chimba (moori sp.).

Honestly, knowone can controll the crossbreeding of 2 different fish. Yeah fair enough you can keep them in seperate tanks but when they are in the same tank. Anything can happen.

Guys, get over all this crossbreeding **** and keep it to yourselves. I don't see the point of this thread going on with people saying that crossbreeding is bad because after 7 pages of it we get it. You don't like crossbreeding! We don't need every man and his dog coming and saying it...

I understand that there are possibilities of the new strain getting out into other's tank etc but in the end, it doesn't matter. If a person wants to cross fish they will cross fish. They will just listen to their opinion and their opinion only.

This is not a flame, nor a post to start more conflict (well it isn't intened to).

Cheers,

Jamie


----------



## 24Tropheus

Jamie C did you read the thread?
Its about line bred Tropheus not crosses, yes? :wink:

I thought the 150+ colour varients in the lake were from a miracle of evolution.
Was it just hybridisation all this time?


----------



## Jamie C

Hi 24T,

Yes, I have read the thread. But were there not speculation of crossbreeding or linebreeding?

Cheers,

Jamie

P.S, I actually don't know why your being such a ********? You weren't like that on TF :thumb:


----------



## 24Tropheus

I see yep, my mistake, I guess there will always be speculation of on the origin and make up of man made lines?


----------



## Petro_Arthur

So, I finally got 30 fry of this wonderful fish from Germany. They is from 2 to 3 centimeter and already showing a lot of colour. 
I'm really looking forward to see them grow up. 
Pictures will follow in a couple of days.


----------



## Petro_Arthur




----------



## flashg

Where are you pics man?


----------



## geoff_tropheus

Nice Petro fry!

Which variant?


----------



## Malawi Mad

Are the very light grey- ish one's the some fish ? last pic at the center !

Wow I like a lot, congrats !


----------



## Petro_Arthur

Malawi Mad said:


> Are the very light grey- ish one's the some fish ? last pic at the center !
> 
> Wow I like a lot, congrats !


The 2 light gray is: Petrochromis Texas Gold


----------



## jordanroda

Very nice!
:drooling:


----------



## IrkedCitizen

I can't see the pictures that Arthur posted it just says "external image" where the pictures should be. FlashG probably has the same problem since he asked where the pictures are.


----------



## Malawi Mad

They work fine for me :thumb:


----------



## Malawi Mad

Well as promisted an update it turns out that these little fry are in fact just Ikola Fry they are a nice 6+cm at the moment and giving each other a hard time.










I have found a small group of Audalts 2 males 4 females and put the whole lot in to a 1200l tank. All is well so far had have a few spawns from the audalts. and 2 more currentley holding.

Sorry not the best clip the sand is BLACK so the Tropheus dont look that flsh will be rearraning and making some changes in the near future



Now I have fry from the female and will be able to see how they develope they color for my self.


----------



## Malawi Mad




----------



## Diogo Lopes

Hi,



Petro_Arthur said:


>


Any updated pics on this?

Cheers,
Diogo


----------



## jeroen tropheus

this are my fish
http://turbox.nl/moba/TropheusYellow3.JPG 
i buy 20 of them in germany im from holland, all the fry are yellow and this fish have blue eyes


----------



## TitoTee

Those recent pics from Holland show a definite well bred fish. This is a one up for the Tropheus world. Without name calling there are those that would have no part with a line bred fish or a hybrid but if the ultimate result is a fish like this - then I think the attempt is a success. These all yellow fish are simply marvelous for a Troph.

I hate to say it but just like Discus have been bred to bring out some fantanstic colors so should the Tropheus. To date - natural occuring Discus still roam their Rivers and are still available. I would imagine that the same would be done with Trophs. In fact - if more line bred Trophs can be developed - people would flock to a beautifully colored well developed strain and.....it would put some relief on the natural populations.

That way the purist can obtain WCs anytime they want. Oooohh - I name called


----------



## 24Tropheus

But they throw out 3/4 useless young (with a hidden degenerative gene) that hopefully are culled and not dumped onto the normal Kiriza aquarium population. Not that I care, no one here is ............. to try em I hope. Or are you just trying to rile us TitoTree. :lol:
I agree the wild Tropheus populations are safe from this sort of thing, as long as nothing rare gets so popular it is fished to extinction. There is the argument that there should be some untainted and none mutant selected fish about in the hobby that could be used for say repopulating a damaged ecosystem but I guess that argument does not carry any weight around here? opcorn:


----------



## pkut

I have a group of Tropheus Golden kirizas. I realize this thread is very old but to set the record straight, these fish breed 100% true. I get all Golden kiriza fry from my colony. I also get 100% Tropheus Red Bishop fry from my Red Bishop colony. I thought it would be a good thing to post this here, for people that may question this. I hope this will help other Tanganyikan African cichlid hobbyists.


----------

