# Stressed Frontosa



## plug (Nov 10, 2013)

My smallest Frontosa continues to look like he is stressed
After intently watching it seems some of the other Fronts chase him a bit

I posted some videos of him showing him and he looks like he is always struggling to breathe by opening and closing his mouth all the time

I am not sure if I should just take him out of the tank and put him into a holding tank


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## plug (Nov 10, 2013)

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## Handyjoe (Jan 11, 2015)

May be he is stressed out by the constant harassment. If you have an extra tank, why not take him out and see how he reacts?


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## plug (Nov 10, 2013)

I think that is what I may do

He is so hard to catch though...will probably stress him out more by trying to catch him


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## nodima (Oct 3, 2002)

Can you add any caves or hiding spots which are big enough for him, but small enough the others cannot access them?


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## plug (Nov 10, 2013)

There are lots of caves, but even though he is smaller than the others, it is only slightly smaller

He just seems stressed and always struggling to breathe


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Very nice looking Burundi.

Is he the only one doing that?

Has he just been chased and is a little out of breath?

Does it get worse or better and if yes, when does it change? After a water change?

What's your pH in the tank and out of the tap?

How big is the tank?

How about a video of the entire tank for a few minutes?

Russ


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## plug (Nov 10, 2013)

Thanks Russ for the reply

Yes he is the only Front doing that
He is like weather he is chased or not
He does it all the time, and before or after water changes it makes no difference

ph of tank is about 7.8 to 8 and out of tap its about 7.4

weekly water changes of about 40%

see video here...sorry not the greatest video but it gives an overview of the tank
125 gallon 6 fronts 4 calvus 2 comps 1 julidichromis 2 baby mbunas (were 3 but 1 was eaten)

It is the smaller front that I am trying to focus on...he is the one in the left corner always trying to hide and breathing funny...sorry about the out of focus at times


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Nice tank and nice looking group. You really got some nice Burundi.

He seems a little more buoyant than the rest. Is that because he is in front of the filter intake or does he seem like that in other areas with less current?

Your pH is probably OK for Burundi frontosa. The drop at water changes from a 7.4 source could be a stressor. I assume you are buffering it a little? How do you treat your new water? Do you add it directly to the tank?

My recommendation would be to treat that little guy as if he had "float." I would put him in a ten gallon hospital tank and treat with Epsom and dramatically reduce lighting, very dark for him. I would also give him a few pieces of PCV. Maybe a small wye or a tee. He will love that for cover. I'll look up the Epsom dosage for you.

You seem like you are in this for the long haul and that is cool. Is like to see you buffer up to, at least, a pH of 8.0 for your group. SeaChem makes an excellent buffer "Tanganyika Buffer." Also, I am a big fan of using a reservoir tank to condition new water for at least a day before use, esp when you are raising it from 7.4. Send me a PM and I can help with that.

What are your other water parameters?

Russ


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

One more question, is your pH stable?


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## plug (Nov 10, 2013)

Thanks again for the reply

I don't buffer the ph...I guess it goes up in the tank as I have that carib sea crushed coral for substrate which I think raises the ph

As for ph being stable you know I don't check it very often

I will start though daily and see

as for being buoyant, he usually stays in that area where the outflow comes, but I will see how he is when he is out of that area and see if he is the same

I will PM you


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

So, you are adding 7.4 tap directly to the tank which is close to 8.0? If that is the case, I am surprised more fish are not gasping.

How are you treating the new tap water?


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## plug (Nov 10, 2013)

I treat it with Prime when adding the water

I will start testing the ph daily and see if it changes

I add via hose and then add enough prime for the whole amount of the tank

I am doing a water change today, so will be taking out the Front that is struggling and put in 10 gallon med tank and treat with epsom salts 1 tbs per 5 gallons or 10 gallons?

Also I usually do 40 -50% water change once a week my nitrates are about 5 or so... ammonia and nitrite 0

I read somewhere that its better to do smaller water changes for Tangs, not large ones

Any thoughts on that?


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

plug said:


> I treat it with Prime when adding the water
> 
> I will start testing the ph daily and see if it changes


Prime is good.



plug said:


> I add via hose and then add enough prime for the whole amount of the tank


Not ideal with your tap water pH at 7.4



plug said:


> I treat it with Prime when adding the water
> 
> I am doing a water change today, so will be taking out the Front that is struggling and put in 10 gallon med tank and treat with epsom salts 1 tbs per 5 gallons or 10 gallons?


Not sure on dosage as I have only had float once. Check that resource I sent via private message.



plug said:


> Also I usually do 40 -50% water change once a week my nitrates are about 5 or so... ammonia and nitrite 0
> 
> I read somewhere that its better to do smaller water changes for Tangs, not large ones
> 
> Any thoughts on that?


In general, that's a myth. However, in your situation, smaller might be better due to your pH swings. My tap is 7.4 also and my tanks are buffered up to 8.3. I use a reservoir tank system to condition my new water for at least a day before use. so, my new water is going in at 8.3. In my 125-gallon frontosa tank, I change 55-gallons at each change and in my 240-gallon frontosa tank, I change 85-gallons at each change.

For my reservoir tanks I have a spare 55-gallon and 30-gallon tank. I fill with tap, add Prime, and my buffer and throw in a couple air stones to circulate and also have a heater in each tank to temper water to the desired temp. I double dose Prime. After 24-hours I have high confidence that I have neutralized any chlorine or chloramines and the pH is right where I want it. I started doing this after losing a group of wild caught E. kilesa after a bad water change. No problems since. Keep an eye on CL for used 55-gallon tanks and you'll score one pretty cheap. It doesn't have to be pretty as it will just be used for this use.

Hope that helps!


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

BTW: if your Nitrates are under 10ppm (5ppm), skip a water change this week and see if that helps.


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## plug (Nov 10, 2013)

Thanks again

The plan is to capture the Front in question and place him in the 10 gallon Med tank and treat

I will have to start looking at the ph more closely and check and see and take course of action from there

I like the idea of the spare tank but just have to see if I have room for it

So may choices and not enough room and time...


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

Here's my notes on how I treated that adult in a ten gallon tank:
Day 1 - added 6 grams of Epsom - fasted fish.
Day 2 - added 13 grams of Epsom (now a total 19 grams of Epsom in tank) - fasted fish.
Day 3 - 25% water change (an estimated 14.25 grams remaining in tank after water change). Added 13 grams of Epsom (new estimated total in tank is approx. 27.25 grams) - fasted fish.
Day 4 - 25% water change and added 6 more grams of Epsom (total estimated Epsom content 26.43 grams) - fasted fish.
Day 5 - 25% water change. No more Epsom. Feed fish lightly. Let him rest for a few hours. Then add him back to the general population, watch for ten minutes, turn all lights off until the next day.

Comments:
1) I fasted my adult front for four days - for a juvie like yours, maybe faste the first three days and feed lightly on the fourth day.
2) Some people increase the heat/tank temp slightly (you'll have to research that).
3) For your water changes, with your pH situation, I suggest the following: use a 5-gallon bucket and add Prime to the bucket and your buffer (test bucket every 15 minutes to make sure your pH is stable in the bucket). You can put a heater in the bucket to get temp where you want it. Maybe an airstone too. Couple hours of "cook time" should do nicely.

Comment on pH: fish will handle pH increases OK; however, they struggle with pH drops (pH drops can be fatal). I have seen fish with labored breathing improve by slowly increasing the pH in the tank. This may be a good time to start increasing the pH in your tank. Bump it up a little each day for a few days until you get it up to 8.3. You can do this by taking a 5-gallon bucket of tank water and adding 1 cap of buffer to it (stir and let set for 30 minutes) and slowly pour the clean water back into the tank and any buffer that had settled in the bottom of the bucket - discard in the toilet. Repeat daily until you get the tank up to 8.3. Again, SeaChem Tang buffer is very effective (it will get you where you want to be better than baking soda - given your 7.4 pH tap water - even mass quantities of baking soda will have a hard time getting over a pH of 8 ).

My adult frontosa responded well to this treatment. His float was caused by stress from being attacked by the tank alpha. He was such a good looking fish, I started up a new 125 just for him.

Here's a recent pic - I think he recovered nicely :wink:










Blessings!

Russ


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## plug (Nov 10, 2013)

Thats a great looking fish

So I was able to catch that Front and put him into the 10 gallon Med tank

I will start treating with your epsom salt method and hopefully that helps him out


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