# Albino Labidochromis caeruleus



## shouck65 (Jan 20, 2008)

Does anyone have any info on these? I can find very little. I've seen they may be a hybrid and almost nothing else. I have some coming that were imported from Thailand. No more info that that. Just curious.
TIA


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## justinf67 (Jul 19, 2009)

dont exist as far as I know. There are some who have fry that have an albino, but, it usually just ends up coloring up later on in life....

There is a whitish blue variant, but its not as popular


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## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

You might be thinking about this fish http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1667 They can look almost white. I have never seen an albino lab but these look close.


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## shouck65 (Jan 20, 2008)

They do exist. Just seeing if anyone has more information on them. Here's a link from this site.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... hp?id=1668


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## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

We posted at the same time...check that link and tell me if that is what you are talking about. Look at the second picture that one is almost white.


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## shaguars7 (Apr 12, 2009)

shouck65,
being as they are coming in from Thailand i not only guarantee there hybirds...i would bet my iife on it. I am sure they are real but not natural...nuff said. when you get them i would like to see some pics posted of the fish when u get them.


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## shouck65 (Jan 20, 2008)

Here is also a link to the aquabid auction that I won. Not a great photo, but...

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/ ... 1266635565

Here's another link with a photo...

http://aquaticmadness.com/images/Labido ... Albino.JPG


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## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

oh my bad...just saw the link you posted...that doesnt look like an albino at all...it has the eyes and no black marking but that fish is yellow.


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## shouck65 (Jan 20, 2008)

Albinism would only affect the black pigment, in the truest since of the term anyways. The yellow should be unaffected. An albino yellow lab would be yellow with no black and have red eyes.


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## shaguars7 (Apr 12, 2009)

as for the black not being there and that makes it albino..lol...all albino fish are white with red eyes...so i dont know where you are getting that logic?? Maybe it is the seeler sending you poor information...


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## shouck65 (Jan 20, 2008)

shaguars7,
look up the definition of albinism. Albino oscars aren't white with red eyes. They will still show any orange or red colors because those pigments aren't affected. Albinism affects melanin. As I said before in the truest sense of the word.


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## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

The only thing that fish has going for it is red eyes. Besides that it looks just like an electric yellow hybrid. It is only lacking pigmentation on its fins. Why wouldn't it effect the yellow? Every other albino fish i have seen is white.


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## shouck65 (Jan 20, 2008)

gafishman1181,
Here's a link that explains what I had said about albino oscars. Albinos are not red eyed white fish. True albinism only affects melanin. It does't change other pigments.

http://www.canaryzoo.com/fish%20oscar%20varieties.htm

There are quite a few photos with this link, so sorry if it takes some time to download.


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## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

So is it only red and yellow colors that cannot change to white?

I just dont understand how a standard socolofi can go from completley blue to white when it is an albino but a yellow lab cannot go from yellow to white when it is an albino.

The colors are in the same spot.


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## shaguars7 (Apr 12, 2009)

what more is there to know...it is a yellow lab with red eyes...let us know what the differences are when you get them.


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## Cam-L (Jun 10, 2009)

I had 2M/2F of them 2.5-3.5".

Yes, the albino means red eyes that's all i know. I don't know is hybird or not but the Profiles had some information for it so that might be not. The Albino Yellow Lab is red eye, yellow body and no black on fins.

Forgot how to post pictures?


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## shaguars7 (Apr 12, 2009)

look up an albino labeotrophus trewavasae red top...the fish that is normally blue with a orange/red back. it is white with the red/orange back and red eyes so it stays true to Gafishmans and my point....i have also seen yellow labs without black fins that are not "albinos"


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## GaFishMan1181 (Dec 17, 2008)

Here is my theory:

Someone was breeding Solid Electric Yellows (hybrid) here is a link: http://www.livefishdirect.com/store.php?fid=535

And while breeding those they discovered fish with partial albinism (just like in humans how you can have partial albinos that only have red eyes but normal hair and skin) and that was just enough to call it an albino.

If you look at that link i just posted then you will see your fish look exactly like those fish except with red eyes.


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## Cam-L (Jun 10, 2009)

I try a long time to find the information about my Firefish and nobody know, finally DJ answer me that's because the Firefish is hybird or cross so no information on this forum.

You can see all albino fish is red eyes but not white body.

Shouck65 post the link from this forum is the only information i can find too. Enjoy your new fish and i love them too (hope they can breeding).


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

OK, I'm going to start editing these posts now, let's settle down. :lol:

The original question was do we have information to provide about them and there was mention that the OP knew they could be hybrids.

I believe it is true that albinism can be a partial lack of pigment. You can have black eyes and still have an albino.

The firefish has red eyes and white body (it's not normally white) but the second red color is still there. Now that you mention it that's what the albino oscars look like right?

I too thought an albino lab would have no yellow but what do I know?  Albino's aren't my favorite.

I would expect the albino of any species to behave exactly like that species with these two exceptions: (a) a natural albino might be weaker and less fertile than it's colored relatives, and (b) a hybrid albino might be more aggressive.


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## Aura (Oct 29, 2005)

Perhaps you can ask emtbmike -- scroll down a little ways to see his albino labs. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=209069. I asked him about these albinos on another forum and he gave me some info about them.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Thinking about it I remembered that albino cynotilapia afra cobue are white but they still have the yellow. Just the blue is gone. Weird.


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## shouck65 (Jan 20, 2008)

I was really just looking to see if anybody had info on these guys. I wasn't looking to get told that they didn't exist, when I knew they did because I had evidence from a few sources with photos. Nor was I looking to be told that I had been ripped off by the seller, I don't tell you how to spend your money so why would you tell me how to spend mine? I've spent much more money than this a lot more foolishly and I'm sure we can all claim that. I was also not looking for any opinions on them, as they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I also wasn't looking for claims that they may be weaker, less fertile and more aggressive. After researching the subject I'd have to say these claims are hearsay, I found no scientific proof. Now having said that, it is true that any strain, albino or not, can carry these traits and others as well, but having those traits just because they are albino hasn't been proven from the info I've searched through. It is true that there are health concerns connected with albinism. Things like skin damage and eye problems, but from what I found this deals with reptiles and mammals. I found nothing about this when dealing with albino fish. My personal thought on this would be water reducing the effect that sunlight would have on albino fish would help protect them some what. 
Instead of wasting my time on the slamming and drama I was seeing with this post I decided to check into it more and here is what I've found, condensed as much as possible. I'd encourage anyone to search for information on this subject because it is very interesting stuff.

The coloration of fish is unbelievably complex and can be caused (and affected) by many factors, different types of pigment in the skin. The type of pigment cells involved like melanophores, xanthophores and iridophores. The layer of skin these are found in. The diet, environment, genetics, type and intensity of lighting, mood and probably a hundred other things all control color in fish.

As for albinism, it's generally referred to broadly as the defect of pigment production. Amelanism is a form of albinism that does away with black or dark pigment. Anerythrism is a form of albinism that does away with the orange red type of pigments. There are others and some deal with the degree of albinism for various reasons, some deal with specific body areas of albinism. Genetically some are recessive traits, some are co-dominant and still others are totally dominant to what is considered normal. So basically we were all right and we were all wrong. Albinism is and can be many things. Albino fish aren't all white with pink eyes. It all just depends. Albino cories, channel cats and BN plecos are generally white with red eyes, though some of my albino BN plecos have a yellow to orangy color while others from the same brood can be white with a pink cast. Think of all the albino fish out there that aren't just white with red eyes like various strains of guppies and other livebearers. There are other strains of albino africans that aren't strictly that color either as noted elsewhere on this topic. Think of the albino peacocks as was noted with the firefish. There are many different strains of albino discus that show various colors too. How about albino tiger barbs, rainbow sharks, oscars, cherry barbs, paradise fish they all show various coloration.

I guess I'll figure out if I spent my $52 foolishly over the next several months as I raise these guys. It sure wouldn't be the first time I did something stupid and I know it won't be the last, but nothing ventured nothing gained. I am curious to know if they are the product of hybridization or not. Just because they are imports from Thailand doesn't prove that one way or the other. It doesn't really matter to me I guess, I'd just be interested in finding out for sure. It'll be fun just raising these guys and seeing what they really are for myself.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*shouck65*
although I made cat hiss-hiss sounds as I read your reply,

excellent reply! :thumb: I've been trying to explain much of that for sometime on C-F and never get very far. It's good to see it from someone else. A yellow albino lab might be just that. 


I have no experience with the yellow albino labs, so only read this thread, but I have been interested and hoping that you order them. They could make for an interesting domesticated breed and I hope they breed true.

Keep us informed once you get them up and breeding for you! :thumb:


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## shouck65 (Jan 20, 2008)

Thanks Number6 for the comments. I'm infatuated by genetics. About 20 years ago I bred cornsnakes in several mutations. Watching the little ones hatch was more fun than Christmas morning, seeing all the variations and colors popping out of the eggs. Besides the fish I also raise Holland Lop rabbits, Silkie bantam chickens and a few breeds of pigeons. Mostly in some of the rarer colors and patterns. Mostly because I enjoy the genetics. 
Thanks to those that added some informative posts to this subject. I just checked out the link that Aura posted to some nice photos from emtbmike. Several of those fish pictured show some evidence of the information I pulled off the web in my previous post. I've always been a sucker for OB africans, even way back when the term "marmalade cat" was used to describe them. What ever happened to that term? I haven't heard that in years. I have a group of OB zebras I'm raising for breeders. Love them and can't wait to see the youngsters from them. 
There are a few things about the albino yellow labs in those pictures that stuck out to me. The male especially seemed to have a fuller/deeper body that more said zebra to me than yellow lab. Also the profile on that fish from the top of the head to the dorsal seemed more zebra-like to me than yellow lab. I think the biggest give away to me that these particular fish MIGHT be a cross are what appears to be ocellated spots in the rear of the dorsal fin. I've never seen those in the dorsal fin of any yellow lab, though all of my own zebras show them. In fact, a lot of my yellow labs don't even have egg spots on the anal fin, either sex and if they do it's usually just one and sometimes (rarely) two. All the same I think those are impressive fish and I wouldn't be complaining if they were swimming around in one of my tanks.
I'm anxious to see my albino labs even more now and see what they are like. I'll be sure to post when they get here and try to get some photos of them uploaded.


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## shaguars7 (Apr 12, 2009)

i am curious to see if these fish your getting will have normal babies at any rate? I would like to say sorry for what you thought was an attack your judgment on how you spent your money. Enjoy your fish and seeing what they produce.. I look forward to seeing pix and also what may happen when they start to breed.


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## shouck65 (Jan 20, 2008)

Shaguars7,
Can you define what you mean by "normal"? Do you mean normal coloration? I would assume, possibly wrongly, that they would only produce more albinos, since I think this albinism is a recessive trait. Maybe I'm wrong. IF the trait is recessive AND they are some sort of hybrid then they would more than likely be fertile because it would take the F2 generation to show the albinism again after the initial cross of the two different species. So I'm more anxious to see if they are fertile. If so they could be crossed back to pure yellow labs for several generations to purify. You'd lose the albinism every other generation, but crossing the albinos produced back to pure yellow labs every other generation, when you produce albinos, means you could purify them to nearly 100% yellow lab. This is the kind of stuff I love tinkering with.


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## shaguars7 (Apr 12, 2009)

what u meant by normal is a regular looking yellow lab...normal eyes and black on fins. I am also curious if you bred one "albino" with one regular how many would be albino....and if there were 2 normal apppearing lab fry from that if they would have a majority of albinos....basically i too look forward to hearing what happens if there sterile or fully functioning. And realistically the 2 albino's should have at some point non albino fry...should be neat to see what happens...it is a shome it make take years to find out this,,,


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## shouck65 (Jan 20, 2008)

I had a pleasant surprise this morning in the form of an email. Not only was the sender a great photographer, but he has some gorgeous albino yellow labs. I told this person that they should post the photos to this thread because I think a lot of people would be very interested in seeing them. Hopefully they get posted. Fantastic photos and even more impressive yellow labs, trust me. 
It's also time to wipe the egg off my face. I have to take something back that I posted yesterday about the ocellated spots in the dorsal fin of those albino yellow labs. I decided to check on the web and see if any yellow labs pictured had those spots and they do. Actually I found many images showing it. Here's a link with some of those photos.

http://akvaryum.rooteto.com/balik-resim ... -resimleri

I again checked my own breeders and a tank of about three dozen youngsters and nothing. I also have a half grown (I think female) in with my breeders and I didn't bother to look at her yesterday, but when I did this morning I was surprised to see her dorsal and tail fin covered in those spots. This half grown youngster is from my breeding trio and none of them have any of those markings. In fact, the male doesn't even have any eggs spots on his anal fin and both females have just one egg spot each on their anal fins. Nothing at all in any other fins though.

Shaguars7, I wish I could give you the quick and easy low down on genetics, but there's no such thing. It took me a long time to get my head around it and I honestly just know the basics. Enough to play with color and pattern genes in the animals I raise, that's about all. 
I'll try to explain the basis of how genes work and a few terms to answer the questions you posted. I hope this doesn't get too long.

Genes basically work in pairs (there are exceptions), For a specific genetic trait you will get one gene from each of the parents. So one gene from Dad and one gene from Mom and we're back to a pair of genes for a specific trait in the offspring. Again there are many exceptions, but for this explanation we'll say each single gene come in two types...

Dominant gene - This gene when paired up with another gene will be the one that expresses itself. An example would be the normal color gene when paired up with a recessive albino gene. Even though you have both a dominant normal gene (say from the father) and a recessive albino gene (say from the mother) the only thing that shows through in the offspring will be the normal, the albino gene does nothing to show it's there by looks alone. Some terms for normal individuals that carry the albino gene are "heterozygous for albino", "albino splits" and "albino carriers".

Recessive gene - To express itself this gene needs to be in a double dose (homozygous) state meaning that no dominant normal gene is present and both parents have passed on our recessive albino gene to the offspring. These show themselves as albino by their looks. This is why crossing two albinos would never result in normal colored offspring, they just don't have the normal gene to pass on, it's no longer there. They have two copies of albino so they can only pass albino on and they themselves show as albinos.

Here's what a few crosses would look like when we know what genes the parents have...

Male (NORMAL/NORMAL) X Female (NORMAL/NORMAL) = 100% normal offspring

Male (NORMAL/NORMAL) X Female (albino/albino) = 100% (NORMAL/albino) offspring all look normal, but carry albino. Albino splits, albino carriers. Now let's cross two of these together.

Male (NORMAL/albino) X Female (NORMAL/albino) Here we will get...

50% (NORMAL/albino) Albino splits
25% (NORMAL/NORMAL) Normal 
25% (albino/albino) Albinos

I hope that makes sense and answers your questions.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

shouck65 said:


> I also wasn't looking for claims that they may be weaker, less fertile and more aggressive.


Hey you asked for any info. That's info. :thumb: The implication was that you believe there is some different info about albino labs than normally-pigmented labs. Hope you enjoy them.


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## shouck65 (Jan 20, 2008)

Well they arrived and here's what I got...










This is one of the better ones. Of the 5 I'm not sure if they are all going to make it. They "wobble" more than they swim, when they aren't just sitting on the bottom. The poor things. I've never received such emaciated/pinched bellied fish in my life. I know they are tough so with any luck I can pull at least some of them through. I think feeding them would be a good start.


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## shaguars7 (Apr 12, 2009)

well shouck that must of been dissapointing! I hope they all make it through for you....and well i am sure you wont be giving that sender any good feedback!!


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## shouck65 (Jan 20, 2008)

Nah, I don't feel disappointed. Disappointed would have been finding 5 floaters when I opened the box! I did a 50% water change (I use Seachem Cichlid Lake Salt) on them and almost immediately I saw a good improvement. Two have eaten like pigs, one has eat pretty well and all three of these are swimming around well enough. One hasn't eaten and sits in the same area since he was released into the tank. The other poor fella is wobbling around the surface rather aimlessly. I'm sure he won't be around by tomorrow morning. 
Give me a couple of years and a few generations to work on them and then we'll see where I am with them.
I refuse to give negative feedback to anyone. They'll just retaliate with the same and it would be unwarranted. I just won't leave feedback of any kind. 
Let's face it, I paid a whole whopping $4 each for these guys. That's about the upper price range for normal yellow labs in this size range on-line and shipping would have been about the same. I would have paid a lot more through the LFS and I probably wouldn't even find albinos there. The only descent LFS is over an hour away from me so I would have spent almost as much in gas to get there as I spent in shipping on these. Yeah, I'm good. Things could have been better, but they could have been a whole lot worse too! I should have my start in albino yellow labs. That's what's most important to me.


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## Aura (Oct 29, 2005)

I hope those sunken bellies are just from not enough to eat and they fill out with good food. I would have been upset to receive fish in that condition.

Good luck with them. :thumb:


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