# Can't figure out why my multi's are dying, please advise.



## CichMomma (Mar 3, 2010)

Hey everyone,
I recently purchased a 20L with about 30+ Multis in it from a nearby fishkeeper. After transporting them home, cleaning the tank, putting on an established filter, and adding new, larger shells, I keep losing 2-3 every few days or so.

I have had them for 2 weeks today. I feed both NLS pellets and cichlid flakes. I check ammonia, and nitrates every couple of days and haven't had any issues with spikes. The temp is 75.

Now, I would say that most of the deaths have occurred in the shells because I start to see the clearish slimy stuff coming out of the shell and thats how I know that there is a dead fish in it. This morning I have 2 more dead on the the substrate and it looks like there are 2 shells that I need to remove and clean out.

I can not figure out why this is happening!! I can't imagine they are getting stuck because these shells are larger than the shells the previous owner had in the tank. Also, the 2 dead on the substrate this morning wouldn't support the "only dying in the shells" theory.

Has anyone had this happen before? I'm stumped!! Thanks in advance!


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Did you boil your shells and make sure there was nothing dead in there?
My best guess is something dead in the shells making local water very bad.

All the best James


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## CichMomma (Mar 3, 2010)

24Tropheus said:


> Did you boil your shells and make sure there was nothing dead in there?
> My best guess is something dead in the shells making local water very bad.
> 
> All the best James


Thanks for your quick reply James. I did not boil the shells as these are the escargot shells from Amazon.com and I really didn't think they would need it. I did put them all in a large bowl and did a hot water soak for a few hours though. I did this a couple times before I introduced them to the tank.
Also, every time I see the death slime starting to come out of the shell, and I remove it, I see the dead fish fall out. None of the shells had an odor out of the box when I purchased them. I think I have 7-10 Multies left and a couple of them don't look so good.

Should I add a little salt and slowly raise the temp???


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I would raise each shell carefully to the surface and smell them. Any that smell bad remove and boil and keep in aquarium water without smell for a week (check them) before replacing.

Dunno if it was the shells or a fish going in and dieing that started the problem. But think you need to get all the dead stuff in the tank and in the shells, out of there ASAP.

Think if you gave the tank a week before stocking and sniffed the shells you might not have this prob now.

Saying that I have had a multi collony go bad (heater stat failure) and its no fun at all. 

Not sure adding salt and raising the temp would help at all and I think may make things worse.

All the best James


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## CichMomma (Mar 3, 2010)

24Tropheus said:


> I would raise each shell carefully to the surface and smell them. Any that smell bad remove and boil and keep in aquarium water without smell for a week (check them) before replacing.
> 
> Dunno if it was the shells or a fish going in and dieing that started the problem. But think you need to get all the dead stuff in the tank and in the shells, out of there ASAP.
> 
> ...


I did as you suggested and have a bunch of the shells boiling now. I replaced the water and will boil again. I am going to do this quite a few times.

I am pretty sure that a few of the fish dying is what started the problem since moving the tank, cleaning it, etc caused some stress to the fish. I did not have the option to wait a week, etc because I bought the entire set up from someone, tank, fish and all.

When I started siphoning the tank and removing shells, I discovered 4 dead on the substrate and 6 dead within various shells. I am now down to 7 Multis and I believe most of those are male since they are larger. Anyone know where I can pick up some females?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Since the tank and the fish were fine before, the shells were my first thought as well.

I would not do the temp/salt thing unless you are thinking they have ich...you do not mention any ich symptoms.


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## CichMomma (Mar 3, 2010)

DJRansome said:


> Since the tank and the fish were fine before, the shells were my first thought as well.
> 
> I would not do the temp/salt thing unless you are thinking they have ich...you do not mention any ich symptoms.


I'm thinking that some of the dead fish in the tank that I hadn't noticed, because they were dead in a shell, set off some sort of toxic chain reaction. So even though I was checking for ammonia spikes and nitrate levels every couple days and those were fine, the toxicity from the decaying fish poisoned the others??? Just my guess.

They do not have ick....I guess I was just thinking the salt + heat would help with stress. I did not do that, however. I did an 80% water change, boiled the nasty shells for about 5 hours and changed out that water 3 times. I have since stopped boiling them, let them cool, smelled each one again and they don't smell like death anymore. Not sure where to go from here.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Put everything back together and keep your fingers crossed. :thumb:

I don't think the dead fish were poisoning each other if you didn't have ammonia or nitrite.


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## CichMomma (Mar 3, 2010)

DJRansome said:


> I don't think the dead fish were poisoning each other if you didn't have ammonia or nitrite.


Should I go ahead and treat the tank with Parasite Guard (praziquantel)? The remaining fish seem stressed/lethargic/non reactive. 

ETA: One of the males has been doing barrel rolls off and on for the past couple hours. I know this is indicative of Whirling Disease but he is the only one doing it. I'm so confused. I feel bad for him.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would not treat with anything unless you know what they have, if anything.

Shellies will hide for days when settling into a new tank, so their behavior may be par for the course after having their shells boiled, LOL.

I don't know about the barrel rolls...sounds like a reaction to a toxin. Maybe from before?

You used dechlor, right? Temp and pH matches what they had?

Did you test the tank water at the vendor? Maybe the vendor had old-tank syndrome and they can't take your new/clean water?


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## CichMomma (Mar 3, 2010)

DJRansome said:


> I would not treat with anything unless you know what they have, if anything.
> 
> Shellies will hide for days when settling into a new tank, so their behavior may be par for the course after having their shells boiled, LOL.
> 
> ...


Ok, I won't treat then. I didn't add the boiled shells back in the tank. With the shells I left in, that did not smell like death, there are enough to go around (about 25).

I don't add dechlor to the water when I do changes because we are on well water. Also, we don't have a problem with high iron, etc. I do have to be careful because our well water is acidic so I adjust accordingly with baking soda.

The old tank syndrome would make sense. This tank was filthy when I bought it from the lady that sold it to me. My husband mentioned that as well. For now I am going to take the wait and see approach. I do need to cull a couple more fish right now though. They are shooting all over the tank, floating down, doing spins and back flips. Thanks for all your input, DJ. You are always so helpful here. I appreciate it.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> putting on an established filter


Was this filter from another tank? One of your own? Have you tested ammonia and nitrite? Just moving a filter doesn't always mean 'instant cycle'. Test ammonia and nitrite and do water changes to keep those values down well below 1ppm while the biofiltration gets re-established. Sounds like they're reacting to and dying from high ammonia levels. I don't think the shells are the problem at all.


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## CichMomma (Mar 3, 2010)

prov356 said:


> > putting on an established filter
> 
> 
> Was this filter from another tank?
> ...


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

CichMomma said:


> I check ammonia, and nitrates every couple of days and haven't had any issues with spikes.


This is why I assumed it was not ammonia. But what about nitrite?


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## CichMomma (Mar 3, 2010)

DJRansome said:


> CichMomma said:
> 
> 
> > I check ammonia, and nitrates every couple of days and haven't had any issues with spikes.
> ...


Yes, I checked for that too, I just forgot to list it as I was typing my post. I am down another 4 today. I am thinking I didn't adjust the pH quite right during water changes after having to siphon out dead fish from the beginning, they got stressed, died, etc etc and then it would begin again every time I discovered dead fish.
I am going to double check everything this morning and add the praziquantel as they are not even eating. I'm just going to do my best to save them and hope for the best as well.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Hate to say it but a 20L with about 30+ Multis it is kind of well overstocked. Yep it could have been a case of the tank being too dirty to survive the move (It would take excellent maintainance to keep such a tank clean enough to survive a move). Then a couple of dead fish adds lots to the bioload.
Not that knowing that helps now.  
Good luck on the recue misson.

Dunno for sure but about 10 multies is I think a good stock level to keep in a 20l tank.
Keep removing individuals to keep the population from crashing.
But then I prob did the same.
Had way to many.
Had what should have been a small problem and then the population crash.

Interesting you never got a bad reading on ammonia, nitrite or nitrate but then I never did with my crash despite being able to see (and smell) dead rotting fish. :-?

All the best James


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## dubghod (Oct 20, 2011)

James, they may be referring to a 20 gal long, these yanks!  Im basing this assumption on the fact that noone else has mentioned the size, that was the first thing I thought of also.

David


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Yup, 20L is a 20 long. :thumb:


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

8) . Sorry we in the UK use L for litres. Sometimes.   My bad..............
A 20 US gallon long could have been fine for a big collony. 8)
About 18 imperial gallons.  

All the best James


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## CichMomma (Mar 3, 2010)

24Tropheus said:


> 8) . Sorry we in the UK use L for litres. Sometimes.   My bad..............
> A 20 US gallon long could have been fine for a big collony. 8)
> About 18 imperial gallons.
> 
> All the best James


Yes, 20L, is 20 long or 20 gallon long. No worries!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

How are they doing today, any better?


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## CichMomma (Mar 3, 2010)

DJRansome said:


> How are they doing today, any better?


No. I have one left, a female, and she is sure to kick the bucket tonight. I am pissed.

Thanks for asking, DJ. I appreciate it.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Awww, sorry for your loss.


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## CichMomma (Mar 3, 2010)

Hey DJ, I wanted to show you, and whom ever else, before and after photos.

This is how the tank looked when I bought it from the seller. That algae was so caked on the glass I had to remove it with a razor blade. Their was so much detritus in and on the substrate I had to rinse it about 10 times.









And, here is after about 3 hours of cleaning and set up with new shells.....and now they are all dead.


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## dubghod (Oct 20, 2011)

Such a massive shame. Really nice looking setup you have there, I wonder what could have gone wrong?

I hope you have better luck in the future.

David


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## CichMomma (Mar 3, 2010)

dubghod said:


> Such a massive shame. Really nice looking setup you have there, I wonder what could have gone wrong?
> 
> I hope you have better luck in the future.
> 
> David


Thanks. I have been racking my brain, and my laptop, trying to find answers. I basically have it boiled down to "I haven't got a clue" but the old/new tank syndrome idea definitely seems plausible.


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## CichMomma (Mar 3, 2010)

Update.
The multies are now all dead. I got them all out of there, did a partial water change, and transferred a giant danio to the 20L (after acclimating him of course) and this morning I can't find him. :-? 
That's a big WTF?!?!


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## Anthraxx8500 (Feb 11, 2011)

sounds like you wiped out the bacteria colony. its always good to clean things. but i personally would have just cleaned the glass and done a bit of substrate cleaning. i always do things in small doses, to avoid damaging that delicate balance.. sorry that happened.. hope it works out in the future for you. shellies are well worth your time. i currently have a 55g multie setup and a 20L ocellatus. both are breeding like mad and are a blast to watch.


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## CichMomma (Mar 3, 2010)

I ended up finding the Danio. He was stuck in a shell but he is still doing fine. I don't know if you read this post from the beginning but I was checking ammonia, nitrate and nitrite levels over the entire 2 weeks, because of the cleaning and because i wanted to make sure my established filter could handle it, and they were always fine. I don't think they were able to handle such clean water after living in such filth.


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## CichMomma (Mar 3, 2010)

Hey y'all,

After all the confusion and anger behind losing all those poor multies I went ahead and got some more from a super guy in Texas that I hav ordered fish from in the past.

I held out about a month because I wanted to try to get some from my LFS, to support local small business and avoid shipping charges, but each week the owner kept telling me that he wasn't able to get him from his "distributor". 

Anyway, I ordered 6 from DS and they all look great and are thriving in their tank.


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## halffrozen (Sep 24, 2011)

Great to hear, got a picture? 

Your tank looked amazing with all those others in it.


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## CichMomma (Mar 3, 2010)

It's the same tank. Still looks the same but with 6 multies in it.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Keep going mate. You will not be the first or last to lose fish when cleaning up and restocking an old dirty set up.

Dunno its kind of they reach a good but bad balance and when you try and clean up your act you run into new problems. Best to have it clean and keep it clean. But thats advice rather than what I always do.  

All the best James


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