# pseudotropheus zebra - pH burn



## Darrin (Jun 10, 2017)

I have a 55 gallon tank that I set up on 5/26/17 for young pseudotropheus zebras that I am raising from fry. I have many tanks and have had tanks for nearly 50 years since I was a kid.

Everything was going great until I did a partial water change.

I did a partial water change (20 gallons) on Tuesday (6/6/17) and on Wednesday they were stressed out. I am a geologist and work with biologists and engineers. Through a series of tests with meters etc... I figured out that I got a batch of acidic water which was used for the partial water change.

The water that was used had set for 4 days before using, so i did not use any dechlor. I avoid using dechlor unless I have to..

I dumped the water from the buckets on Thursday 6/8/17 and filled them with fresh water. The pH and all other parameters tested well and that water has been used now for 2 partial water changes... ( 10 gallons each)... one on Wednesday 6/7/17 and one on Friday 6/9/17.

I kept the light on from Wednesday night until this morning at 6:00 AM and turned it back on at 1:30 PM today.

My questions involve my approach from here on out. Some of the fish are eating... about half of them... but not with the normal intensity. The others have no interest in eating. Some are scraping themselves occasionally and a couple have what looks like damage to their slime layer. It is not white fuzz and does not look like ich... but more like bubbles.

I believe it is called pH burn...

I am old school and have a marineland emperor 400 outside filter and two 550 powerheads with and undergravel filter. The setup is only 15 days old, so the carbon and the media in the filter is pretty new.

I am very concerned about the health of the fish. I have cared for these fish since I harvested from their moms and setup the 55 gallon just for them.

The quality of the aged water I have is back up to par with what it should be and I am preparing to do water changes in my other 7 tanks.

What are your recommendations to improve the health of of these african cichlids, ease this pH burn and get them eating again??

I am planning another partial water change today (10 gallons only) and thinking about replacing the carbon in the emperor 400,,, even though it is only 15 days old. I think that I am going to leave the light on since they seem to do better at this point...

I think leaving the light on may also help with the ph - is that true?

Will replacing the carbon at this point help?

I have various types of medicine, but II fear that removing the good bacteria would be more harmful than the medicine would be helpful....

Thanks for any help that you can give me.

Darrin


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'm surprised your water does not have chloramines since you are in the US...are you sure? I would use Prime every time.

I've never heard of pH burn...pH shock yes but it usually shows up right away and disappears within 24 hours (unless the fish don't survive).

I would not remove any media, including carbon.

How did you cycle your tank? What are your test results for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?

How did one batch of water have a different pH? Did the water company change the chemical treatment mix recently?

I don't think the light is truly helping and would not keep it on at night. The fish need a rest period.


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## Darrin (Jun 10, 2017)

thanks for the response!
the employees for the water utility used to work with my agency. they only use chlorine. i tested the chlorine straight from the tap and it is only 0,2 mg/L. chlorine is a non-issue. i am a hydrogeologist. ammonia and nitrates are a non-issue. the tank has only been setup for 15 days with excellent filtration.
i am in jacksonville, florida. we get our water straight from the aquifer. the water is pumped from 4 wells into two reservoirs and aereated. from the reservoir it is lightly chlorinated and then pumped to the community. the utility reported that one of the reservoirs is down. it is possible that because of this, the water i got from last friday 6/2/17 came from another plant.
the ph of that water was 5.56. it is now back to the normal level of 7.4. I know that is a little low for african cichlids, but they have been thriving on this water just fine.

I am not going to change the carbon, but I am going to leave the light on

i just tested the water and the conductivity is high compared to the other tanks. my other 55 has a conductivity of .762 the new one has a conductivity of .898. the pH is about the same, but the dissolved oxygen is lower in the new tank. healthy 55 has a D.O. of 6.23 and the sick tank has a D.O. of 5.66

the fish have been gasping and i lost one about 1 hour ago

the pH burn is just a term that I was told

any additional advice would be much appreciated


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Mine gasp when they need oxygen or when my nitrites are high. Are you saying ammonia and nitrates are a non issue because results are 0 and 10ppm? Or are you saying these chemicals don't bother the fish?

I had pH shock only once...the fish rested in the bottom with faded colors.

I'd look for other causes. When I think it might be oxygen, I throw on an extra filter just to see if things improve.


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## Darrin (Jun 10, 2017)

I am saying that the results for nitrate and ammonia are good. many are resting at the bottom with faded colors just like you say. the powerheads and emperor 400 really move the water. water chemistry is good. just looking for any ideas to help with their stressed state of being...


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## tanker3 (May 18, 2015)

Can you tell us what your parameters are now? Ammonia, Nitrate, and Nitrite?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I'm saying if it were pH shock they would be over it by now. I would look for other issues.


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## Darrin (Jun 10, 2017)

I wanted to make sure that there was not a calibration issue with my second meter, so I went to pets mart and purchased a test kit and some stuff by seachem called PRIME. I tested the water at about 5:30 PM and the ammonia was 1.0 ppm, nitrite was 5.0 ppm and nitrate was 5.0 ppm.

So this IS the problem.

I did a 20 gallon water change, rinsed the media in the filter, replaced the carbon and added some Prime. I rechecked the levels 1 hour later and the ammonia was 0.25 ppm, nitrate 5.0 ppm and nitrite 5.0 ppm.

I waited 2 more hours and rechecked. The ammonia was 0.5 ppm, nitrate and nitrite - both still 5.0 ppm. I did a 25 gallon water change at 8:45 Pm and will recheck in a couple hours.

Is there anything else I can do?

What can I do to stabilize these 3 parameters?


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## judyok (Aug 12, 2014)

Change the water again.


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## Darrin (Jun 10, 2017)

20 gallons - done


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would change 50% every 12 hours until you get the nitrite < 1ppm. Can you add established media from one of your other established tanks?


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## Darrin (Jun 10, 2017)

would the blue fiber cartridges for the emperor 400 power filter work?
I have the same filter on my other established 55 tank...

did I make a mistake by replacing the carbon and rinsing the media yesterday?

would you recommend Stress Zyme by API??

or maybe Dr. Tim's One and Only?

it appears that my cycle was doing just fine and I screwed it up with a water change which was compounded by the water being acidic. I should have tested the parameters and if everything was fine, just left it alone. But I can't go back now...


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## Darrin (Jun 10, 2017)

did 25 gallon water change at 4:30 PM after ammonia was 0.25 ppm and nitrite was 5.0 ppm - used Prime by Seachem (water set for 24 hours too)

tested again at 7:45 PM and the levels were the same

did 20 gallon water change at 8:00 PM - used Prime and treated w/ Stability by Seachem

planning on doing at least one water change per day and treat with Stability by Seachem (the second W.C. - if there are 2)

any advice is welcome

thanks


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would not add any chemicals. Moving the filter media from the established tank to the troubled tank will help enormously or possibly even solve the problem.


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## Darrin (Jun 10, 2017)

thanks - i checked all day during work hoping to get an answer to that question.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Fingers crossed, hope it works. If you have lots of fish in the established tank and only fry in the new tank...you may need only a little media. Don't take more than half.


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## Darrin (Jun 10, 2017)

i am out of new media...
can i swap the media from the established 55 with the new 55 or will that cause a problem in the established 55??


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## Darrin (Jun 10, 2017)

i am out of new media

can i swap the media from the established 55 with the new 55...? or would/could that cause a problem in the established 55?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Switch only half so the old tank stays cycled. But yes, old tank can be half new and half established media and new tank can be half new and half established media.


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## Darrin (Jun 10, 2017)

i placed one panel of filter media from the established 55 in the new 55 filter at 10:05 PM last night. I just tested the water at 3:45 PM and ammonia is 0.25 ppm and nitrite is still 5.0 ppm, I know the recommendation was a water change every 12 hours. the 12 hour separation between changes is difficult due to my work hours. the levels yesterday was the same as today, before and after 2 water changes.

3 water changes on sunday did a great deal of good (ammonia went from 1.0 ppm to 0.25 ppm, but nitrite has stayed the same at 5.0 ppm) and the fish showed much improvement

2 water changes yesterday did not result in any change in concentrations

it would seem that one 25 gallon water change today would be enough - i am fearful that 2 water changes would only add more stress to the fish (at least with only a few hours between each change). the second water change does not appear to be reducing the concentrations at all...

at this point do you think 2 water changes per day still needed... ??

it would seem that one 25 gallon water change per day until the ammonia and nitrite levels drop to ZERO may be the correct plan moving forward.

do you agree?

if one water change every 12 hours is the best way to go, I will need to figure out how to do that..

thanks


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I would do 75% water 1X daily changes...I would still want that nitrite down to 1ppm immediately. The only reason I said 50% 2X daily was because you have not done the larger water changes.

But if the bioload in your established 55G was 2X that of the fry in the new 55G...and you put in half the media from the established 55G...within 24-48 hours things should normalize.


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## Darrin (Jun 10, 2017)

thanks
i was initially doing 50% based on what I had read during research and to avoid over-stressing the already stressed fish... i will step up to 75% changes from here on out. I want the nitrite down too. low back pain and exhaustion set in some time ago, but I have a great deal of effort invested in these little guys and their life and well-being is my top priority


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Don't you have a Python?


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## Darrin (Jun 10, 2017)

levels the same tonight
75% w.c. completed


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

It does not make sense that you remove 75% of the water and still have 100% of nitrite.

Please provide details of the filter media you removed from the established tank...and how many/what type/what size fish you have in there? That should be handling more of the nitrite for you.


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## Darrin (Jun 10, 2017)

one blue panel from the marineland emperor 400 - as stated before
type of fish is in the subject line
size varies from 1 inch to 3 inches - most in the 1 inch range (they came from 2 different females at 2 different times and were all living in a 10 gallon before being moved to the 55)
approx 20 fish

i AM feeding them - they went a week w/o eating and seeing them eat is one of the best ways to see if they are getting better - which most of them seem to be...

levels were the same today
75% water change


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The zebras in the subject line are the fry in the new tank, correct?

I am not familiar with marineland emperor 400...not a brand I like. Trying to help here...would one panel be half the filter media on your established 55G?

So if you move half the media for 20 2" fish (On average)...why isn't it handling the ammonia and nitrite from 20 fry in the new tank?


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## Darrin (Jun 10, 2017)

i greatly appreciate ALL of your help!!

one blue panel is half... mostly...there are 2 blue fiber panels and 2 panels that come apart to be filled with carbon. the blue panels are the ones that catch the particulates

i do not know why it is not coming down

very frustrated

i am going to pull the rest of the results from the treatment plant today at work to see what the parameters are... coming straight from the facility to my house

thanks again for your help!


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Well, even at the tank level...if you physically removed half the nitrites, it should be 5.0 before a 50% water change and 2.5 after.

Use the same nitrite test on tap and tank. Some people have nitrates...but I have never heard of anyone having nitrites in their tap water.


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## Darrin (Jun 10, 2017)

tank tonight: ammonia 0,0/ nitrite 5.0

bucket filled last night - w/ no chemicals added - ammonia 1.0/ nitrite 0.0

bucket fillet wednesday night - w/ no chemicals added - ammonia 0.50/ nitrite 0.0


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

So in theory if you changed 100% of your water, you would have zero nitrite. I would do it. You have ammonia in your drinking water?


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## Darrin (Jun 10, 2017)

ammonia = yes
i knew this was true in the daytona area, but not here
did 75% about 1 hour ago
now, i know that i need to treat my water - even after it sits for 2 days
lost a fish today


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## Austinite (Jul 27, 2013)

How did things go over the weekend?

Keep changing as much water as you can, every day, since the issue is that the tank isn't cycled. Maybe purchasing some live bacteria from Dr Tims might help? I know it will take a few days to get there, but still....

Did you buy a Python or something similar to make the water changes easier?


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## Darrin (Jun 10, 2017)

concentrations have consistently been 0.25 ppm ammonia and 0.25 ppm nitrite for the past week. the fish appear to be back to normal. I lost 2. 2 other ones got beat up and are in quarantine. I cannot get the levels to go down to zero, so I am still doing 75% water changes once per day. I have to treat the fresh water even after it sits for 2 days. the ammonia is 1.0 ppm after one day and 0.50 ppm after sitting for 2 days.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Weird that the established media did not handle the bacteria. Glad to hear your mini-cycle is ending.


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## caldwelldaniel26 (Jun 11, 2017)

DJRansome said:


> So in theory if you changed 100% of your water, you would have zero nitrite. I would do it. You have ammonia in your drinking water?


Practically everyone has ammonia in the drinking water now that the water companies have switched over to chloramine instead of chlorine. I posted a discussion about chloramine and chloramine removal requiring a catalytic carbon bottle and a zeolite bottle, in "equipment"


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