# All of my fish losing color?!



## jnick

Since the start of this hobby, I've always felt that my fish went coloring up. However, I chalked it up to it being a new tank and the pictures on google of certain species being altered! However, the last week confirms some of my suspicions...I think something is up with my 125G tank.

Rewind to last Thursday. I purchased a Lwanda, about 4" long. It had a deep yellow body with a by royal blue accent and fins. As of this Tuesday, it is so pale, you can't even tell its a Lwanda. While the yellow is partly there, the blue has faded to where it's non-existent.

Tuesday night, I brought home two more fish. Both being 5-6". A red empress and a Insignus (Tazania). Both were beautiful at the store, and when I out them into the tank that night. Fast forward to today... Their colors are lightening up to the point where I can see their barring.

The same goes for the rest of the fish. When I got them, they were vibrant. After being in the tank for a bit, the have faded. All the fish will also flash multiple times a day, yet there is no ick breakout, etc. What could be causing this?

I feed them NLS 2-3 times a day. I have started feeding Frozen Krill three times a week in the hopes that it will enhance their color. I do water changes at least once a week. I have a CRAZY amount of flow from my FX5 and its spraybar, ensuring a rippled surface for oxygen exchange. What am I missing?

These fish, when purchased, we're gorgeous. Now most are simply faded. I also know that none were hormones. All of these were bought from site sponsors or local breeders.

Any advice or "troubleshooting" steps I can take would be appreciated. I simply don't now what I'm doing wrong...

Thank you!


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## NickosW

What substrate you got brother? They're pretty wily fish..and to an extent i believe, like most animals, they like to 'blend in' with their environment.

I switched from brownish gravel to white sand and noticed within a day or two (as I expected) that most of my fish, especially the darker coloured ones (ie.male johanni) started to look paler and 'washed out'.

So.. this is just a guess and I'm far from an expert, but what substrate?


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## Michael_M

What is the stock list exactly? Have you done a ammonia/nitrite/nitrate test? Is this a standard dimensions 125?

The fish seem stressed; easily caused by aggression, poor water quality or illness.

Posting the stock list, test results and even some pictures of your fish/tank setup could help.

My substrate is a light coloured sand and my fish colour up fine. The darker substrates might contrast slightly better but the difference is minimal imo. People choose black backgrounds to hide their equipment. However if you don't have a backing of some sort your fish can look a bit faded.


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## DJRansome

Good advice from Michael M. Also the stock may be incompatible, which is usually the reason in my tank if someone is not coloring up.

Note that my Lwanda does not have a yellow body. What collection point is it?

Your fish have been in the tank less than a week? Regardless of the size it can take several weeks for the fish to relax into the tank and regain color. My experience with adding a large fish (8" in my case) was that he would not even eat for days and took longer to acclimate than I had ever experienced before. So if all else is good, it might be a matter of patience.


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## Fogelhund

Posting some pictures wouldn't hurt. Are all of the fish faded out, or just some?


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## jnick

Wow...thanks for the fast response everyone! Much appreciated! I am at work right now and do not have access to new pictures however I can answer the other questions as well as go through my phone for some images I've taken this week.

The tank is a typical 125G, 6ft long. The substrate is Leslie's Pool Filter Sand and I am also using a 3D slimline background. Lighting is AquaticLife 2x T5HO (Actinic & 10,000).

Not ALL of the fish are exhibiting this problem, however MOST of them are. For example, my Blue Regal and Ngara Flametail appear to be unaffected.

I am due for a chemical test tonight, therefore I can update the thread with that information. However, the last test I did, Nitrites and Ammonia were 0. Nitrates were between 60ppm-80ppm. I had done a 75% water change that night. I will update the post later with more recent findings.

Here was a video (



) I took 3 days ago. Note, most fish here are lighter then they normally would be. On top of that, as of yesterday, most were lighter than the video. Note the Lwanda...At the 15 second mark in the video, you can see how pale it's become (its even a bit worse now). On June 28th, prior to the video (the day I got him) it looked like this:










Here is a picture of the Red Empress and Insignus as of last night. Both got much lighter. The Insignus' body was as blue as the face when I got him:



















I can post more relevant images of specific fish when I get home later. One thing I noticed is by turning off the filter, ALL of the fish started hanging out in the lower/mid region of the tank, swimming around. Even the smaller guys started 'playing tag'. Normally my smaller guys hang out at the top of the tank above the spray bar. Could flow be too much? I also noticed, in particular, after the filter being off for 20 minutes or so, the Venustus got his giraffe spots back and the Insignus darkend slightly. Then again, maybe it's a placebo effect...?

Again, I will post up more specific shots and chemical test later this evening. I am also compiling my stock list to post up in a few.

Again, I appreciate all of the help and support you member shave provided. I would have never made it this far with my tank without you and I appreciate the willingness to further help me figure out this potential problem!


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## DanniGirl

The fish look fine in the video and I don't see a problem with either Red Empress or Insignus.

A generic reason why some of them could be losing color is because you have dominant and sub-dominant fish. 
The Lwanda colored down because he was singly added to the tank. When you add fish, try do so in groups. By adding singles, there's a higher chance for the lone fish to become a target.


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## Fogelhund

When you add in a fish to an existing hierarchy, either that fish becomes THE dominant fish, or becomes a target as it tries to find it's place. If it is THE dominant fish, it will maintain it's full colour. IF it isn't, it won't. Your fish are mostly like teenagers right now. The dominant ones will try and showoff more, and exert their dominance more. As these fish mature, they'll be less aggressive, and the lesser fish are more likely to colour up. What you are hoping to see in your fish, is the full breeding dress of males, who are dominant. Not everybody can be dominant at once. As time goes by, I would expect more and more of your fish to gain colour, but not everyone will, and it depends on how aggressive the dominant fish in the tank becomes. I think your tank situation looks pretty normal.


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## DanniGirl

Also, you just removed an aggressive fish, is that correct? That could have been a contributing factor as well.


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## Michael_M

I'm just jealous you can buy fish like that at a LFS. Have you rearranged the rockwork recently? I find that a few days after adding fish and they've settled in it can help them out to give them a chance to establish themselves better. Agree with Danni on the removal too, I recently removed a Proto. Annectens and it caused one of my peacocks to become a bully for a for days trying to rise in the hierarchy.


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## 13razorbackfan

DanniGirl said:


> Also, you just removed an aggressive fish, is that correct? That could have been a contributing factor as well.


That is what I thought as well....maybe it was a moori or I am thinking of somebody else.


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## jnick

Thanks for the information so far guys!

That's correct... My Moorri got into a fight with the Venuatus and was chasing the deep water and mloto. I never saw it chase a peacock though.

Here is my stick list with an estimate on their size:

- Blue Regal (4in)
- Mloto (5in)
- Ngara Flametail (4.5in)
- Ngara Flametail (2in)
- Ruby Red (2in)
- Benga Yellow (3in)
- German Red (3in)
- Jacobfriebergi otter pt (4in)
- Turkis (4in)
- Venustus (6in)
- Lwanda (4in)
- Taiwan Reef (3.5in)
- Red Empress (6in)
- Tanzania (insignis, 6.5in)
- Moorii (6in, on timeout right now)
- Dragonblood (3.5in)
- Deep Water Hap (5in)
- Lithobates (3in)
- Maylandi (3.5in)
- Red Shoulder (3in)
- Flavescent (4in)
- 2x BN pleco (2in and 3in)

Here are some more pictures (cell phone) of fish tonight:

Benga yellow:









Taiwan Reef:









Maylandi:









Red shoulder (bottom center)









Lwanda:









Thanks again for all of your help!


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## Anthraxx8500

from the pics *** seen id agree with most of wat was already said with the exception that i believe u have too little rock with that many fish (even peacocks like to hide out every now and again) and theyre all juveniles still. got lots of growing to do and lots more issues down the road. i personally would consider rehoming anyone too passive and removing anyone overly aggressive. maybe consider some dither in the form of a mbuna school (yellow labs r a decent choice) just something to break up the peacocks from drilling on each other 24/7


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## jnick

Everything I've read stated Peacocks and Hap prefer the open water vs having a lot of caves. Also, aren't mbunana bit too aggressive? I understand yellow labs are a "peaceful" mbuna, but are they peaceful enough for peacocks?


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## Fogelhund

I would leave the mbuna out. The maylandi is not going to colour up in this mix no matter what.

I too would add more rocks, these fish are not really open water and very few Malawian cichlids are.


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## jnick

Do I add more rock in the sense of making caves?

Also, with the maylandi, would it be better to get a 5 inch adult that's ready colored? Or do you feel it will still lose its color? My LFS had a HUGE adult Maylandi when I got the Red Empress.

Thanks!


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## DJRansome

It is still likely to lose it's color. It's not a maturity thing, but rather a dominance thing.


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## Michael_M

If your relationship with the LFS is good they may take him back for credit if he doesn't work out.

Saw a fully coloured lethrinops red cap in a all male malawi today, so sometimes taking a punt against the odds works out. But I agree with DJ, its not likely.


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## jnick

Thanks for the replies everyone. Here is an update as I realized I never posted the chemical test:

Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 80ppm
pH - 6.8
GH - 12 drops = 200-400

Interestingly enough, my pH seems to have dropped. It used to be around 7.4-7.6. Isn't 6.8 rather low for cichlids? Should I start buffering my water?

I was watching TV and noticed that my flavescent (usisya) was a rather bleak yellow. Normally this guy is one of my 'hardier' guys as I've never seen him lose color (similar to my flametail and blue regal). He was more of a tan than bright yellow.

I immediately did a chemical test and mis-tested my ammonia...it was showing over 1ppm! I freaked out and began doing a water change. I restested ammonia, twice and both times it was 0. Phew!!

However, during the process of shutting off the filter and heater, and sucking water out of the tank, the favescent colored right back up...? Where as others, like the benga and German reds both turned nearly white during the process.

I also noticed through this, my German reds waste was white and stringy...?

I'm uploading a video to YouTube on my filter flow. That's the only real change that got my flatvescents color back. Other than that I'm not sure if my ph is part of the problem or if it's all chalked up to maturity and dominance.

Thanks again!


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## DJRansome

What is your KH? That will drive your pH and so it is more important. Don't change your pH until you see what the KH is. What is your tap water pH and KH as well.

Nitrate=80 is double the safe level (40ppm) and I like to keep nitrate even lower at 20ppm maximum. So I'd do a 50% water change today and 50% tomorrow to start getting into a reasonable range.

Or maybe since you already changed some water, the nitrates are lower now? What are your test results after the water change?

Organics will lower pH, so removing some nitrates with the water change may have already increased your pH.


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## Michael_M

I'd keep a eye on the fish with the white feces. It can be a indicator of bloat, but often fish seem to do it for no apparent reason. Just make sure hes eating normally, he hasn't sustained any recent damage and he isn't being harassed.

I find some of my peacocks are unphased by water changes/rock removal ect, while some turn very pale, they are all fine after things return to normal though. As for your peacock gaining/losing colour; they are probably just working out whos the boss.


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## jnick

I did another full blown water chemistry test tonight. I found something interesting with the KH. According to the API instructions it says to add one drop at a time until such a time where the water turns from a blue to a yellow. After the first three drops, it's a pale yellow. We NEVER saw any blue! Here is a picture of the KH test. The KH tube is on the LEFT, ammonia on the right (you can see PH and nitrate in the back). Should I be adding drops until it's a "bright yellow" or the minute it's pale yellow is the test over? According to the directions it says you can look down the tube. When I do this it's a BRIGHT yellow.










Providing the test is correct, and the KH is at 3 drops...that's a problem, is it not? My PH registered at a 6.8 again today. However, in our mbuna tank (same tap water) the PH was a 7.2. I'm starting to think that the low PH and KH could be playing a factor.

Also, as I said I posted up a video of my flow from the spray bar. Do you think this is too much agitation for the peacocks/haps? I noticed my german red (2.5") always stays above the bar until it's feeding time. My benga stays below the bar but against the back wall. To me, it appears they are attempting to avoid the current.






Thank you guys!


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## Bizbomb

If I dont buffer my water then they will both change colours after one drop meaning almost no hardness. Also if that is your ammonia in the front right it is very yellow and according to my tests that means a high amount of ammonia which is bad.


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## DJRansome

Right now your ammonia, nitrites and nitrates are the main concern. Once you get your tank cycled, then yes, I'd buffer using baking soda. Read the article in the CF Library about water chemistry to get amounts.

To see if the current is too much, I'd want to see video of the fish, not the surface. If they are not getting blown around at the bottom, it should be fine. Fish that lurk under the surface are likely being harassed, even if you don't witness the harrassment.


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## Michael_M

The higher nitrates also tend to lower Ph. Once they are under control your Ph may not be as bad.


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## jnick

DJRansome said:


> Right now your ammonia, nitrites and nitrates are the main concern. Once you get your tank cycled, then yes, I'd buffer using baking soda. Read the article in the CF Library about water chemistry to get amounts.


Thanks, DJ. I definitely know Nitrates are a problem as they were 80 two days ago and are around 40 now after a 60PWC. However, the Ammonia is at 0 as is the Nitrites. I plan to do another 50-60PWC again today or tomorrow to hope to cut it in half yet again. Nitrates out of the tap are near 0 so I know the source is fine.

I will also take another video of just the fish for you.

In regards to the buffer...Is it ok to add this mixture directly to the tank? I use the Aqueon Water Changer, so the tap goes directly in the tank with no middleman (bucket). I empty some water, add prime then re-fill. Is it ok to add the buffer to the tank once it's been re-filled? I also assume I shouldn't jump from 6.8 to 8.0, but rather a gradual change?


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## DanniGirl

jnick said:


> In regards to the buffer...Is it ok to add this mixture directly to the tank? I use the Aqueon Water Changer, so the tap goes directly in the tank with no middleman (bucket). I empty some water, add prime then re-fill. Is it ok to add the buffer to the tank once it's been re-filled? I also assume I shouldn't jump from 6.8 to 8.0, but rather a gradual change?


No, you have to add the mixture slowly; over the course of hours. 
Fish are sensitive to fluctuations in pH. Shelli Wittig gives a great analogy. "The pH scale is logarithmic (like the Richter scale used to measure the intensity of earthquakes). This means, for example, that a pH of 8.0 is 10 times more alkaline than a pH of 7.0." 
Consequently, you need to gradually add the recipe over the course of several hours. Once you maintain stability, then it would be alright to immediately replenish the baking soda and Epsom salt. Obviously, only add the small amount that was removed during the water change.


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## jnick

Thanks, Danni!

I did a 50PWC today and here were the chemical results about an hour or so after...










Wooo! Got my nitrates down to around 10-20ppm! However as you can see the pH is still low. I will do another change on Saturday and begin adding in the buffer recipe.

I also rearranged the rock that I have making a few caves/tunnels for them to swim through or hide behind.

I'll update the chemicals again tomorrow to see of they stabilized and try to get another video of the current.

Thanks!


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## jnick

Since getting my pH and Nitates under control, I noticed some improvement over the fish. However, there are also still a handful of fish that are displaying next to nothing at 3"-3.5". I figured I'd take some quality pictures and show you exactly how they are looking in the tank...

German red:









Red shoulder


















Benga









Taiwan Reef









Some of them are so pale that I'm worried something else is wrong. I've only ever seen my guys get that white/pale in the past when they are crazy stressed, like when trying to net the fish or during vigorous water changes.

Is this normal coloring for these fish at 3-3.5" or do I still need to investigate a possible tank problem?

Thanks!


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## jnick

One more example...

Here was a GORGEOUS lemon jake I bought from a very reputable dealer. This picture was taken a day or two after purchase:










Two weeks later, it now looks like this:










Any thoughts?


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## 13razorbackfan

I am not sure which fish these ^^^^ are compared to the pics of your fish on page one. Is it possible these fish were hormoned? How big where they when you bought them and where they already colored? I am not saying they were hormoned but that is a lot of color loss if some of the fish above are the same as the fish on page 1. If these fish were fully colored and have lost all color or most as it would appear then I don't think it is just a maturity thing I think it is either aggression or hormoned fish. I have been having a real nightmare in my area with hormoned fish. I have already contacted a online dealer/sponsor to place a order because I can't handle any more hormoned fish. Makes me very angry. I also found out that many of these fish are being bought by a very large fish farm in florida, won't say their name, and the LFS's have been ordering the same fish from the same fish farm. I know one store owner is savvy enough to know what hormoning is but the other person is absolutely clueless so I don't think it is my LFS's doing it. I think it is the breeder/fish farm trying to move stock.

What is the aggression level like in your tank now? Who is the tank boss. How many of these fish are being bossed and by who? Is there another tank you can move a couple to and see what happens?


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## DanniGirl

Most of the fish look colored down due to an aggressor; the Jake, the Taiwan Reef and the German Red. 
Who has taken the place of the moorii?


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## jnick

@Razorback: None of those fish were on the first post. These are primarily the fish that are getting me worked up about this because of how pale and bland they are. Which is why I was nervous it was a tank issue, or as stated, aggression. I know for a fact that hormones are not involved. They all come from very reputable dealers. Unfortunately, I cannot say their names but two are site sponsors and the other, from my understanding, gets their fish from a site sponsor.

As far as who is boss, that's a good question. Once I put the Moorii back in, he seems to have settled down a little. He no longer chases the Venustus and seems to specifically target the Electra, specifically. However, it's just chasing, no fighting at this point. If I had to guess on who was boss, I'd say the Venustus, Red Empress or Otter Pt.

Just curious, but would it be beneficial for my to set up an HD camera and record a couple of minutes of video showing the whole tank? I can leave the camera fixed in a spot on a tripod so you all can observe how the tank mates function? If so, I can get on this tonight!

Thank you guys!

PS (and off topic): Danni, the pup in your picture is beautiful. My fiance and I have one that looks very similar. What kind is he/she? Ours is a basset-lab mix (you figure that one out!)


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## 13razorbackfan

jnick said:


> @Razorback: None of those fish were on the first post. These are primarily the fish that are getting me worked up about this because of how pale and bland they are. Which is why I was nervous it was a tank issue, or as stated, aggression. I know for a fact that hormones are not involved. They all come from very reputable dealers. Unfortunately, I cannot say their names but two are site sponsors and the other, from my understanding, gets their fish from a site sponsor.
> 
> As far as who is boss, that's a good question. Once I put the Moorii back in, he seems to have settled down a little. He no longer chases the Venustus and seems to specifically target the Electra, specifically. However, it's just chasing, no fighting at this point. If I had to guess on who was boss, I'd say the Venustus, Red Empress or Otter Pt.
> 
> Just curious, but would it be beneficial for my to set up an HD camera and record a couple of minutes of video showing the whole tank? I can leave the camera fixed in a spot on a tripod so you all can observe how the tank mates function? If so, I can get on this tonight!
> 
> Thank you guys!
> 
> PS (and off topic): Danni, the pup in your picture is beautiful. My fiance and I have one that looks very similar. What kind is he/she? Ours is a basset-lab mix (you figure that one out!)


Ok....glad hormones are not involved. So it would be aggression issues I would guess. The fish all look healthy.

Yes....do a video. Can you do more than a few minutes though? I think youtube will allow 10 minutes or so? I would set it down in front of the tank and let it record while you are out of the room. Make sure to get the whole tank in frame. I do this all the time to observe. I then load the video to my laptop and watch. I can pause and rewind because sometimes the action is really fast and I miss it.

opcorn:


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## jnick

Consider it a done deal. I do have a birthday dinner to go to tonight, but will get this done very soon!


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## jnick

I took a 10 minute video of the entire tank for those who want to observe the behavior and aggression. It's uploading to YouTube now but it's gonna take a bit of time! I should have a link up here tomorrow morning.


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## Storiwyr

jnick said:


> PS (and off topic): Danni, the pup in your picture is beautiful. My fiance and I have one that looks very similar. What kind is he/she? Ours is a basset-lab mix (you figure that one out!)


I too want to know what the beautiful dog is in Danni's profile pic. If I have to guess, I'd say Weimeraner/Lab? It's hard to tell from such a small pic, other than that it's a gorgeous animal. 

And I can't wait to see your tank video, it's always interesting to see how other people's tanks look in action.


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## DanniGirl

I can understand your concern. Unfortunately, some fish rule with an iron fist. Your Liuli is still colored up (from what I could tell) and it's only a handful of fish that have are colored down, correct?



jnick said:


> PS (and off topic): Danni, the pup in your picture is beautiful. My fiance and I have one that looks very similar. What kind is he/she? Ours is a basset-lab mix (you figure that one out!)


Sounds like you have a wonderful dog,* jnick*! 
Thank you for the compliments. The dog in my avatar is a blue Weimaraner- she's one of the two weims that own me.


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## Storiwyr

DanniGirl said:


> Thank you for the compliments. The dog in my avatar is a blue Weimaraner- she's one of the two weims that own me.


Woo! I was half right!  I hadn't heard of blue Weims ... she's beautiful.


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## jnick

DanniGirl said:


> I can understand your concern. Unfortunately, some fish rule with an iron fist. Your Liuli is still colored up (from what I could tell) and it's only a handful of fish that have are colored down, correct?
> 
> 
> 
> jnick said:
> 
> 
> 
> PS (and off topic): Danni, the pup in your picture is beautiful. My fiance and I have one that looks very similar. What kind is he/she? Ours is a basset-lab mix (you figure that one out!)
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like you have a wonderful dog,* jnick*!
> Thank you for the compliments. The dog in my avatar is a blue Weimaraner- she's one of the two weims that own me.
Click to expand...

Looks to be a great companion, Danni! Thanks for sharing!

Alright everyone, here's the video. It is watchable up to 1080p. 




 (note, I didn't have my full music library at my disposal when I uploaded it so I through on whatever I could find and looped it! Feel free to hit the mute button!)

Thanks!


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## 13razorbackfan

Tank is very impressive. I noticed some mild chasing here or there but that is normal. I didn't notice any fish being run up into the corners or anything like that. It also appears that most of your fish with size all have nice coloration. Maybe someone else can chime in here but I would just continue on doing what you are doing and see if they don't start to develop some more intense colors.


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## nudge

I agree with razorback , impressive tank. Everyone seems to be getting on ok. As razorback said it seems most of your larger fish are showing nice colour. It may be that the smaller fish are a still a little intimidated and are not fully comfortable yet. Sometimes it can take a while for them to adjust to their new surroundings. Your lemon jake for instance may have come from a tank where he was a single male with a harem of females, where as now he is in a tank where he is not top dog.


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## jnick

Thanks guys!

@nudge: You are right in that regard. The Lemon Jake came from a tank where it was the only fish in the tank. I thought in situations like that they usually don't color because they don't have any competition. However, it would make sense that he was the king of that tank....the was the only one in that tank!

@razor: Thanks for the feedback. I'll just sit back and relax for now. As long as I know nothing bad is going wrong I'll give them time to mature and see what happens!


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## 13razorbackfan

jnick said:


> Thanks guys!
> 
> @nudge: You are right in that regard. The Lemon Jake came from a tank where it was the only fish in the tank. I thought in situations like that they usually don't color because they don't have any competition. However, it would make sense that he was the king of that tank....the was the only one in that tank!
> 
> @razor: Thanks for the feedback. I'll just sit back and relax for now. As long as I know nothing bad is going wrong I'll give them time to mature and see what happens!


Yeah...your tank looks great and they all appear healthy with good behavior. Keep it up. :thumb:


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## DanniGirl

Just watched the video. The tank looks great and nothing really stands out. I agree with the above posters that it's simply young fish establishing a place within the hierarchy. *Nudge* is right on concerning the Lemon Jake. He looks decent enough in the aquarium as well as the others.

Eventually some may color up. That's just one of the challenges of an all male tank.

For the time being, your tank looks good.


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## anonimus

sorry for ask here, but wich Aulonocara is this??

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v487/ ... 5b8fce.jpg

Looks amazing!


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## trashburner

Awesome tank!! IMO I would raise my kh with baking soda to get between 8-10. Which will raise your ph a little and provide buffering to lock in ur ph to make it sable with a kh of 3 I would not feel comfortable. Fish do not like ph that swings, they like everything to be stable. Don't worry about where the ph ends up just get the kh up to between 8-10. Do This slowly and replace baking soda while doing water changes to keep in same range.


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## jnick

@anonimus - Thanks!! No worries...that is a Protomelas sp. "Spilonotus Tanzania". Profile can be found here: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... hp?id=1239

@trashburner: Thanks buddy. Yep, I've been buffering with Baking Soda and Epsom Salts ever since this. Everything is much more stable now. Definitely still have nigh nitrates for I don't know what reason, but the pH has been solid


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