# Erm...



## liquidkiwi (Apr 26, 2008)

Thanks for the help and replies. I did something I probably shouldn't have done. Went back to the store where I originally got the fish from and told the shopkeeper what was happening.

Surprise, he told me to try frozen brine shrimp or bloodworms. Now correct me, but weren't these precisely the things to avoid when keeping mbuna? I put some of it in my tank and this electric yellow actually took a few bites from it and seemed to keep it in.

Tried the normal pellets (Tetra Color Bits) and the fish went past them again. Man, what should I do?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I don't know what species you are referring to besides Yellow labs, but I can tell you that bloodworms are a big NO for mbuna, period. I'm not sure if the brine shrimp are okay or not without knowing the other species. If you have alot of herbivores, it's not something I would do.


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## liquidkiwi (Apr 26, 2008)

cichlidaholic said:


> I don't know what species you are referring to besides Yellow labs, but I can tell you that bloodworms are a big NO for mbuna, period. I'm not sure if the brine shrimp are okay or not without knowing the other species. If you have alot of herbivores, it's not something I would do.


Sorry about the boo-boo. I had another thread started for this, but stupidly enough instead of adding a reply I must have clicked to start a new topic instead and this post became a whole new thread on its own. I would have deleted it if I could.

But yes, I was referring to a yellow lab that emerged to feed, might take in a pellet or two but spit it out without swallowing it. It takes well to the frozen bloodworms but that's about it.

The other fish in my tank are the Aulonocara baenschi and a group of Lithobates...not sure if they would be classed as true herbs.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I wouldn't feed any Malawi cichlids bloodworms, I think you're taking a huge risk of problems by doing so. The problems may not surface immediately, or you may be seeing them now, with a Yellow lab refusing and spitting food. (It may already be sick...)

How long have you had this Yellow lab?

Would it ever take the pellets you offered? If it's new, it may be used to flake, and might just take some time to make the transition. If it came from the LFS where the person told you to feed bloodworms, it may already have bloat.


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## liquidkiwi (Apr 26, 2008)

cichlidaholic said:


> I wouldn't feed any Malawi cichlids bloodworms, I think you're taking a huge risk of problems by doing so. The problems may not surface immediately, or you may be seeing them now, with a Yellow lab refusing and spitting food. (It may already be sick...)
> 
> How long have you had this Yellow lab?
> 
> Would it ever take the pellets you offered? If it's new, it may be used to flake, and might just take some time to make the transition. If it came from the LFS where the person told you to feed bloodworms, it may already have bloat.


The yellow lab has been in my tank since it was first set up almost 7 months ago. It has been joined by a group of sunshine peacocks and lithobates. I've only ever fed them Tetra Color Bits and the fish have always loved them.

But this particular lab started to exhibit this funny behavior only after spitting its first batch of fry. The fry are going well but things are not the same with the adult lab. It is especially surprising because I have never changed food. It is possible that water conditions may have changed somewhat because I moved this fish from the main tank into a separate tank to brood. It had already been holding in the main tank for about 4 weeks prior.

And after moving it to the breeding tank it still took some 3 weeks to spit, which got me extremely worried for a moment. But after the spit I moved it back to the main tank. This shift was done with another two of my female sunshine peacocks and they are fine, on their way to getting another batch of fry.

I didn't (and can't) get an exact pH measurement of the water in the breeding tank before moving the fish, but have used the same substrate (coral sand plus white rock) in both tanks. Temperature is the same in both tanks.

All the fry in the breeding tank are doing well, but I don't know if there's any hybrids in there. The guy at the LFS warned me that just about any cichlid is capable of hybridizing with something else...that is to say, he believes I can get hybrids by keeping labs, sunshine peacocks and lithobates in the same tank. This confuses me a little because I never read anywhere that I shouldn't keep these fish in the same tank. How likely is it for hybrids to occur between these three fish?


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

First let's deal with the Yellow lab. If she held for 7 weeks, she held WAY too long. I would back off the blood worms and treat her for possible bloat with Jungle Parasite Clear. (That's the mildest bloat treatment, IMO, so it shouldn't stress her out too bad. ) You'll want to do 3 treatments, spaced 48 hours apart, with a 25% water change prior to the 2nd and 3rd treatment.

Any mouthbrooder _can_ hybridize. IMO, those 3 species are unlikely to crossbreed if you're keeping them in larger groups with good male/female ratios. But, again, anything is possible if you have an excessively dominant male in any group.


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## liquidkiwi (Apr 26, 2008)

cichlidaholic said:


> First let's deal with the Yellow lab. If she held for 7 weeks, she held WAY too long. I would back off the blood worms and treat her for possible bloat with Jungle Parasite Clear. (That's the mildest bloat treatment, IMO, so it shouldn't stress her out too bad. ) You'll want to do 3 treatments, spaced 48 hours apart, with a 25% water change prior to the 2nd and 3rd treatment.
> 
> Any mouthbrooder _can_ hybridize. IMO, those 3 species are unlikely to crossbreed if you're keeping them in larger groups with good male/female ratios. But, again, anything is possible if you have an excessively dominant male in any group.


Yup, no more blood worms at this time. Moreover, I wasn't feeding the fish bloodworms prior to this episode occurring, so it's probably not even the food that caused it. What's the name of the active ingredient in Jungle Parasite Clear? Should I leave her in my main tank and treat there, or move to the fry tank (where there's at least another 30 mixed fry) for treatment? I'm guessing main tank...


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Metronidazole and praziquantel are the active ingredients in JPC.

I wouldn't move her to the fry tank, if you have a tank for her alone that would be best, and you could feed the main tank medicated antiparasitic food preventatively.

If this isn't an option, treat the main tank.


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## liquidkiwi (Apr 26, 2008)

I failed to save the E. yellow and it died about 3 days ago. After removing it from the tank I had a look in its mouth and didn't find anything unusual in it. Interestingly on closer observation I see one of the female sunshine peacocks exhibiting the same symptoms. Went back to the fish shop and asked them about it. Spoke to a different guy this time and he was still convinced it was not bloat, saying that the symptoms are rather unusual indeed.

Anyway, I decided to treat the whole tank with metronidazole. The guy told me to put four 200mg tabs in my 200L tank. Since I work at a vet clinic I have ready access to these tablets, so I didn't have to pay a bill at the fish shop. Looking at the articles here however, it appears that this is a pretty high dose.

I was told to change the water in 3 days time and repeat treatment. Does this sound like a sensible thing to do? The affected peacock is ravenously hungry but does the same. Takes food in and spits it out. It even went for the metronidazole tablet that I dropped into the tank but I'm not sure if it actually ate any of it.


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

The meds that we have available to us in the LFS are very very mild. (If they were full strength doses, we'd need a prescription or a veterinarian to give them to us.) I don't think you've overdosed the tank at all.

The treatment plan sounds fine.

Please let us know how things turn out. :thumb:


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## liquidkiwi (Apr 26, 2008)

cichlidaholic said:


> The meds that we have available to us in the LFS are very very mild. (If they were full strength doses, we'd need a prescription or a veterinarian to give them to us.) I don't think you've overdosed the tank at all.
> 
> The treatment plan sounds fine.
> 
> Please let us know how things turn out. :thumb:


I see. This sounds good because the dose of 4X 200mg tabs sounds like a higher dose than recommended in what I see in the articles here.

Hate to admit it but I am a veterinarian. Trouble is that we didn't learn near enough about the more 'exotic' types of pets in our course. Give us a dog, cat, horse, cow or sheep and we're pretty good. Come rabbits and fish and we're stuffed! :lol:


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

Don't feel all alone. I once worked for a vet who had tanks all over the waiting room, and he knew a bit about treating fish, but I've never found another one who did. I think it's because fish used to be considered more as "disposable" pets. I guess they never thought about the invasion of the cichlids! :lol:


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## liquidkiwi (Apr 26, 2008)

cichlidaholic said:


> Don't feel all alone. I once worked for a vet who had tanks all over the waiting room, and he knew a bit about treating fish, but I've never found another one who did. I think it's because fish used to be considered more as "disposable" pets. I guess they never thought about the invasion of the cichlids! :lol:


Haha, true though, now that you mentioned it. People are also more inclined to ask the folks at the LFS for advice than see a vet. Unless they're very expensive fish of course. When I was still a student I used to do work experience at a vet interested in aqualife. He would see koi and expensive goldfish in consult.

As it stands now the affected peacock is still not eating, but a water change and second dose of metronidazole is due tomorrow. I'm only worried this is not going to work. Got a Lithobates and another E. yellow holding as well. Sounds like chaos in this tank. But then again the Lithobates always seems to swallow its eggs.


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## liquidkiwi (Apr 26, 2008)

Just a quick update: after 3 treatments of metronidazole and a few days' wait the peacock is showing signs of being able to keep food down. Hope it's on the way to recovery and not just a temporary improvement. With some luck, looks like I might be able to save this fish after all!


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