# Calling fish F1 when they are clearly Not!



## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

I want to see what the members on cichlid-forum think about this topic.There are sellers on the internet,I am not calling them out,that list fish for sale as F1s when they are clearly not.In one auction the guy states that they are line bred for color and has F1 in the Title which is a OxyMoron for sure.Also when is the last time you have seen any wild Neolamprologus nigriventris,L.meleagris,and Northern Congo Tropheus for sale,so why are there so many F1 juvies for sale?I have seen 3-4 inch Ophalmotilapia ventralis that were fully colored up in one month in receiving them from what the seller said,sold as Wilds when they are probably Pond raised fish.Everyone who has wild featherfins knows how LLLooonnngg it takes for them to settle down and get any color. To me there is nothing wrong with F2,3,4,5 and so on fish as long as they were properly bred,but to label fish as F1 when they are not is lying and wrong.Why not just say they are high quality tank raised fish and let a true Actual picture of the fish sell them. =D>


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## nauTik (Mar 18, 2009)

dmiller328 said:


> Why not just say they are high quality tank raised fish and let a true Actual picture of the fish sell them. =D>


Because some people like to take advantage of the people that are willing to pay extra for the title.

I still don't understand why anyone would want wild caught fish. Unless they are planning on breeding and selling off F1's.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

dmiller328 said:


> I want to see what the members on cichlid-forum think about this topic.There are sellers on the internet,I am not calling them out,that list fish for sale as F1s when they are clearly not.In one auction the guy states that they are line bred for color and has F1 in the Title which is a OxyMoron for sure.Also when is the last time you have seen any wild Neolamprologus nigriventris,L.meleagris,and Northern Congo Tropheus for sale,so why are there so many F1 juvies for sale?I have seen 3-4 inch Ophalmotilapia ventralis that were fully colored up in one month in receiving them from what the seller said,sold as Wilds when they are probably Pond raised fish.Everyone who has wild featherfins knows how LLLooonnngg it takes for them to settle down and get any color. To me there is nothing wrong with F2,3,4,5 and so on fish as long as they were properly bred,but to label fish as F1 when they are not is lying and wrong.Why not just say they are high quality tank raised fish and let a true Actual picture of the fish sell them. =D>


N. nigriventris, L. meleagris, and Congo Tropheus have been available within the last few years as wilds.


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## cjbtech (Dec 5, 2008)

Saying you have something that you don't is dispicable. So many of the fish bought & sold at the local hobby or club level is based on creating friendships & reliable sources. 
The lure for wild caught fish for me is to see what exactly they look like in comparison to some tank raised fish. For the most part in my area the quality of the hobby fish are excellent so there is not alot of need for them. That being said adding a new bit of genetics to your group of friends, local hobbiests fish is also beneficial.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

I mean Northern Congo Tropheus such as Kiriza and Brichardi Mtoto.Even most German and Czech breeders do not offer all F1 cichlids on their list.One guy has the meleagris as F1 and shows a pic that says actual parents when it is a pic from another well known breeder that states his breeders are Tank Raised stock.Also there is no such thing as a Line bred F1.If you see a super orange leleupi,very gold ocellatus,and bright yellow J.regani Kipili, they are not even close to being F1.I don't see anything wrong with these fish but they should not be labeled F1 and I don't see anything wrong with keeping wild caught as long they are bred to supply the cichlid community.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Using F1 as...... first generation from wild or WCxWC is just a fishkeepers convention. It has made no dictionary I know of stating this use is normal or accepted.
If you check the meaning of F1 it more usualy means the offspring of crossing of two lines or species. Hence many new hybrids should be sold as F1. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/F1
Maybe ask, "are they first generation from wild?" in which case an answer of "yes" would be lie and then you might have a case that they are not as advertised.

To be honest I wish all of us would stop using F1 this way (it caurses confusion in other circles of folk and scientists who think all cichlid keepers prefer hybrids). Always question what exactly is ment by F1 when it is used.

All the best James


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

Good point *24Tropheus*.

I hate using it this way but unfortunately its become the lingo for the hobby.

However I can't defend lying about what you are selling when you are using the lingo in the accepted form to mislead others. But in general people suck what are you gonna do?

I have bought fish from many reputable dealers who's fish all seem to shrink in transit. What was supposed to be 4in is 2.5in, what was supposed to be 1.5in was .5in. And in the end I'm trusting what they are telling me they are sending is what it is. I have no way to know for sure if it's truly an F1 or WC or some watered down hybrid. It's a roll of the dice each time you buy online doesn't matter who the shipper is. That is the lesson here.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

chrispyweld said:


> Good point *24Tropheus*I have bought fish from many reputable dealers who's fish all seem to shrink in transit. What was supposed to be 4in is 2.5in, what was supposed to be 1.5in was .5in.


I believe a large part of this is becuase for some strange reason, people on forums use Total Length like they are fishermen instead of aquarists. I was shocked when I first started visiting here and another forum by that fact. Most vendors have been in the hobby a long time, and thus use Standard Length measurements like the more scientific websites or hobby books/magazines do. Us old geezers don't like to change.


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## chrispyweld (Dec 20, 2005)

This goes beyond that. But I agree that is another point that can cause confusion. If only we all used the metric system everything would be so clear. :lol:


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

Why can't a line bred fish be F1?
Isn't a line bred fish just spawned from selected adults?
If you had a group of wild fish and hand picked all the best looking ones for breeding, you are line breeding, or am I wrong? Not trying to argue, seriously wondering. :thumb: 
P.S I agree with you about misslabeling fish, I wont deal with that are not honest, period.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

24Tropheus said:


> Using F1 as...... first generation from wild or WCxWC is just a fishkeepers convention.


 Not true. Offspring from wild animals are referred to as F1 according to international regulatory agencies etc. Check out CITES terminology.



noddy said:


> Why can't a line bred fish be F1?
> Isn't a line bred fish just spawned from selected adults?


 They are a Genetic F1, but not a CITES F1 and not a hobby F1...


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

noddy said:


> Why can't a line bred fish be F1?
> Isn't a line bred fish just spawned from selected adults?
> If you had a group of wild fish and hand picked all the best looking ones for breeding, you are line breeding, or am I wrong?


Not wrong, just not using the "correct" terminology. Line breeding is a specific form of "mild" inbreeding. IE, you breed a wild male fish becuase it has a certain color pattern and want to "fix" that trait. You then would find a daughter that showed the same pattern and breed her back to the wild male. This time even more fry would show the pattern. You repeat until all the fry from a given spawn are displaying the trait you want. The process usually takes several generations, so the likelyhood of a line bred fish being F1 is next to nil.

But like many of our terms, it always isn't used properly in the hobby.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

*noddy wrote*


> Why can't a line bred fish be F1?
> Isn't a line bred fish just spawned from selected adults?
> If you had a group of wild fish and hand picked all the best looking ones for breeding, you are line breeding, or am I wrong? Not trying to argue, seriously wondering.


Even if someone selected the most gold Wild L.ocellatus pair out of 100 and bred them,they still would not look even close to the line bred fish that is out there.It would only help pass the traits to the next generation to line breed for the bright color easier/quicker.When someone uses the F1 term on a line bred fish it is nothing but a marketing ploy for new people to cichlids.To me though when I see this,it makes me wonder what else is being passed off as Wild caught or F1 and is not.There is plenty of pond raised fish coming from lakeside in Burundi and I am sure they get labeled F1.I have seen juvenile Bentho.tricoti for sale as F1 Tank Raised and they are being pond raised there.I might be wrong but I have not heard of anyone Successfully breeding that species in good numbers in aquariums.Another debate is some people think that inbreeding fish does not cause any health problems/deformities.I have seen many deformed fish at LFS and wholesalers, but are they caused from inbreeding or not culling weak fish? What do you think? Thanks for the great replies!


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

dwarfpike said:


> Not wrong, just not using the "correct" terminology. Line breeding is a specific form of "mild" inbreeding. IE, you breed a wild male fish becuase it has a certain color pattern and want to "fix" that trait. You then would find a daughter that showed the same pattern and breed her back to the wild male.


No, line breeding is simply selecting for a specific trait over multiple generations. Inbreeding is a very fast way to acheive selection for a specific trait, however it is not a requirement for linebreeding. You can also employ full sibling inbreeding over multiple generations to line breed, which would be aggressive inbreeding by anyone's definition.

When linebreeding, the 1st generation are labelled F1, and you begin again at F1 if you outcross to an unrelated animal. Very different than hobby terminology and different to CITES terms...


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Like I said, hobby definitions, like many of our terms, varies from the actual deffination of the term (hybrids for instance).

Two differant sources of line-breeding deffinations:

n. Selective inbreeding to perpetuate certain desired qualities or characteristics in a strain of livestock.

n. The producing of desired characteristics in animals by inbreeding through several successive generations.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

I wrote an article on this a while back that might be helpful. 
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/c ... _terms.php


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

The key to remember, labeling should benefit the buyer, not the seller. Label all fry as clearly and simply as possible and avoid areas of confusion.

This is a quote straight from the library on the forum for breeding terminology that I wish everyone would do.Also when it comes to the size of the cichlids being sold,I think it is best to say they are smaller than what you think they really are.If a fish looks like 1.5 inch total length might as well say 1.25 inches to be safe.One of these days the slow to change USA will go to metric system which I think is easier,but there will still be people that state the size of the fish wrong!


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

Funny I placed a quote of yours before reading your newest reply!


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## Multies (Mar 9, 2007)

I honestly dont really care if a fish is WC, F1, or tankraised. They can sell it as anything they want as long as i know what is its and that they look nice.

people just say theyre F1's so they can get some extra cash. whether they are F1 or not, does anyone really care?


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## Gerry Binczik (Jan 30, 2005)

Number6 said:


> 24Tropheus said:
> 
> 
> > Using F1 as...... first generation from wild or WCxWC is just a fishkeepers convention.
> ...


Yup, I've done a fair amount of work with captive wildlife studbooks, and when an individual animal is referred to as "F#" the "#" represents the number of generations since wild-caught.

I have often enjoyed the special challenge of keeping and breeding wild-caught animals, but if that's not what interests a person then I think s/he'd generally be better off going with captive-bred. In any event, I agree that folks should be honest about what they're selling.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I care because I buy my fish unseen. So I try to stick to vendors with very good reputations. You are definitely putting your trust in them when you buy.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

dmiller328 said:


> Funny I placed a quote of yours before reading your newest reply!


I'm glad the article is helpful (and read!  you wonder... )

*Gerry Binczik*
:thumb: 
thanks!


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

*Multies wrote*


> I honestly dont really care if a fish is WC, F1, or tankraised. They can sell it as anything they want as long as i know what is its and that they look nice.
> 
> people just say theyre F1's so they can get some extra cash. whether they are F1 or not, does anyone really care?


I do not care as long as they are being honest with the info they know on the fish. Most people Must care or the sellers would not label them F1 when they are Not.


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## Multies (Mar 9, 2007)

Even if they are not honest with you, it wouldnt change the fish.

I second with DJRansome :thumb: 
Stick to people that are legit.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

Case in point, about 5 years ago I bought a pair of L.ocellatus White strain from a LFS and they had very nice color and perfect body shape,but when bred together well over half of their fry had signs of inbreeding with a deformed mouth.I traded the pair back in and told them the situation.If you bought this pair as F1 and paid good money for them to breed them ,Multies would you still say it would not change the fish.You say it does not matter to you if sellers lie to you but you say to stick to people that are legit? :-?


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## Multies (Mar 9, 2007)

Wouldn't you stick with people that are legit?
Sometimes, they don't have everything you need. You need to go to other people. In these cases, you can only hope for the best.

What I was trying to say before was that whether the person was selling the fish as a F1 strain or not, the fish they're selling are still the same. I've bought tons of tank raised fish that looked much better and did much better in my tanks then F1's or WC's.

I'd probably pay more for tank raised fish if they looked better rather then buying it because they're called "F1's" or "WC". I like to see it as buying clothes (Excuse the analogy if you think it sucks). A designer brand costs more due to the brand. Compare an expensive T-shirt over a cheaper one.

Also, I usually do not trust LFS's to sell me a pair of cichlids. But thats just me. In any case, not all tank raised fish will create deformed fry. You just happened to be unlucky. I've never had a problem with deformed fry. An occasional 1 or 2 from a few batches but from what I've seen, pretty normal.


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## BioG (Oct 12, 2008)

mouth twists aren't necessarily a trait from inbreeding, I have had (reliable) WC pairs produce good numbers of mouth twist fry and then broods of seemingly perfect fry. In the Lake, nature culls those with mouth twists, horse mouth etc. In the hobby we raise them and they get out. Many people don't have the heart to cull fry they've raised for 3 months only to find many of them have deformities etc. But they don't want to keep the ugly suckers either...

...So off to the lfs they go!

To me, rep is everything in the hobby. I dealt with an importer awhile back who, I admit, I was taking a chance on. He did not let me down. He sent, for example a "Show Quality" Wild fish (A pair actually) and labeled them 4" and 3". When they arrived not only were they absolute show quality but they were more like 5"+ and 3.5". Being that they were fish found rare in the hobby I trust that the guy was dealing honest with me and have dealt with only him ever since.

The price is never high if it's worth it. I would also never buy any fish sight unseen. Anybody wanting to sell fish to hardcore hobbyists should be prepared to furnish pics of actual fish and/or parents of the fish they are selling imo.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

dmiller328 said:


> Case in point, about 5 years ago I bought a pair of L.ocellatus White strain from a LFS and they had very nice color and perfect body shape,but when bred together well over half of their fry had signs of inbreeding with a deformed mouth.I traded the pair back in and told them the situation.If you bought this pair as F1 and paid good money for them to breed them ,Multies would you still say it would not change the fish.You say it does not matter to you if sellers lie to you but you say to stick to people that are legit? :-?


Lamps can also end up with deformed mouth's as a result of certain characteristics in the water.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

*dmiller328*
I agree with Biog
Shell dwellers have been found to have one of the higher frequencies of hybridization due to shell stealing, territory overlap, etc. Inbreeding shellies often results in more "culls" than inbreeding many other species. F1 shell dwellers could be true F1s and still produce very messed up fry. 
With shell dwellers, I like to buy about a dozen fish to let a pair form. :thumb: no culls!


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## Razzo (Oct 17, 2007)

dmiller328 said:


> I want to see what the members on cichlid-forum think about this topic.There are sellers on the internet,I am not calling them out,that list fish for sale as F1s when they are clearly not.In one auction the guy states that they are line bred for color and has F1 in the Title which is a OxyMoron for sure.Also when is the last time you have seen any wild Neolamprologus nigriventris,L.meleagris,and Northern Congo Tropheus for sale,so why are there so many F1 juvies for sale?I have seen 3-4 inch Ophalmotilapia ventralis that were fully colored up in one month in receiving them from what the seller said,sold as Wilds when they are probably Pond raised fish.Everyone who has wild featherfins knows how LLLooonnngg it takes for them to settle down and get any color. To me there is nothing wrong with F2,3,4,5 and so on fish as long as they were properly bred,but to label fish as F1 when they are not is lying and wrong.Why not just say they are high quality tank raised fish and let a true Actual picture of the fish sell them. =D>


The simple answer is: "For the love of money is the root of all evil:" (1 Timothy 6:10a).

To me and most others, F1 is the offspring of wild caught parents (*both* parents being wild caught). In theory, if they are truely F1 fry, you should have good genetics. beyond F1, the possibility of siblings breeding increases and genetics decline.

Reasons why I like wild caught fish:
I do like to breed and sell them. It makes me personally feel good that I am selling high quality fry. I enjoy making new friends through a good transaction.
To be completely humble and honest with you all, I do like the "coolness" of having wc fish. I enjoy telling/teaching friends and family about the rift lakes (where these these little fishies came from).
Also, with some species, you will have better color than TR fish. I know, there are exceptions and I will point out one that Ad K noted (I do not have the source quote), the C. Gibberosa (Kapampa) is one of the rare examples where the F1 fry will look just as good as their wc parents.
Some of our altolamp species with red in them do not pass that color onto their fry (its dietary from the lake) - they actually lose it too in captivity.

I don't like buying fish on the internet from people that I do not know or have not been referred to me. I have been keeping cichlids, on and off, for,... 20+ years (more seriously in recent years) and have developed a trusted circle of friends that, if they don't have something, can refer me to a source they trust. If I do buy from a source that I don't know, I realize up front that I am taking a risk and am content to deal with the hand that was delt to me.

Just my humble three cents worth of advise


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

Razzo said:


> beyond F1, the possibility of siblings breeding increases and genetics decline.


 I'm with you on your entire post except this part... inbreeding depression is real, as it outbreeding depression, but it inaccurate to say that inbreeding (even siblings) causes a decline in overall fitness (or a genetic decline as you phrase it). Two undesirables alleles at the same locus will result in a poor quality fish whether it is the same allele or different ones.


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## dmiller328 (Nov 17, 2008)

Thanks for all of the info everyone! I did not realize that shell dwelling Lamps are a dysfunctional family!!
I too like Razzo like wild caught fish as well,especially the slow to Grow species like A.calvus.If you start with tank raised calvus , the recommend 6 or more fish to grow out to make sure you have at least a pair.To me it is cheaper and heck of a lot faster to buy a wild pair or trio than waiting 3+ years,70+ water changes,chemicals,and food.Also you can say the fry are F1 without having to lie about it.


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

dmiller328 said:


> To me it is cheaper and heck of a lot faster to buy a wild pair or trio than waiting 3+ years,70+ water changes,chemicals,and food.Also you can say the fry are F1 without having to lie about it.


of course, it is also random breeding which IME and IMHO is the actual breeder error that we all blame on "inbreeding". I've always had the least number of culls from say 2 dozen F1s than buying what some human has decided is a "pair". :wink:


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Number6 said:


> Offspring from wild animals are referred to as F1 according to international regulatory agencies etc. Check out CITES terminology.


Found a couple a references of it being used this way. WOW, that suprised me, I thought they would have more sence than to use this ambiguous term. When using it this way they always describe them as numbers of generation from wild first and only then use the F1, F2 F3 etc as notation, yes?

F1 is an ambiguous term. It needs defining each time it is used. Thus making it in the main useless.
Agreed?
Or is this still wrong?

I have no problems with F1 from wild, F2 from wild etc it is just when the "from wild" is dropped it kind of becomes jargon and easily missunderstood and missused and potentionaly missleading?

All the best James


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## Number6 (Mar 13, 2003)

24Tropheus said:


> F1 is an ambiguous term. It needs defining each time it is used. Thus making it in the main useless.
> Agreed?


 I agree... it is not a reliable term. Even if we can all agree on a single definition, I can arrive at a (justifiable) F1 term with a multitude of crosses including the 1st act of inbreeding and hybridization within the species.

E.g. WC x WC from same reef = F1
WC xWC from opposite end of lake = F1

If anyone thinks that the above pairings will have a similar outcome as they work with the bloodline then they will find themselves in for a surprise or two.


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