# Not chlorine, not chloramin, but hypochloride



## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

So in dreaming of how I'm going to set up an auto-water change using a drip method, I checked to see if my water municipality used chlorine or chloramine. I was told they use neither, but instead hypo chloride.

Does anyone have any experience with this? 
How does it affect the fish; does it burn like the others?
Does it dissipate over time (fingers crossed for my drip method)?

I've check my water treatment (API - Stress Coat) and it does not mention that it removes this!


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

It may actually be Calcium Hypochlorite.....


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

Which may be the same as chlorine? :-?


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

Well, the best I could find was the following sentence from the following link. If anyone has any experience with this, or finds any definitive info on how to neutralize it in an aquarium, please post!

Hypochlorite solution gradually releases chlorine into water.

Click here for the source


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## Pali (Dec 22, 2009)

Did they mention if it's Sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl) or Calcium hypochlorit (CaCl2O2) :wink:

Either way they both break down into Chlorine (cl), but Sodium hypochlorite will also break into Caustic soda (NaOH). Caustic soda is mildly toxic to aquatic life, but the main issue from what I have read is the pH changes it can cause. Also aquatic life is not always just fish, it can be harmfull to algea or marine bacteria and get the same lable.

I have no ekspiriance with treating tab water for these chems, all the info is found thru chemical data sheets. So I don't know how big pH changes it can cuse or if your water conditioner will handle the NaOH or if it's not to worry about for fish.

Calcium hypochlorit CaCl2O2 will not be a issue, it breaks down into Calcium (Ca) Chlorine (Cl) wich either is removed with water conditioner or oxygination of the water. Last there are 2 oxygen molecules releaced from the break down, so thats not gonna be a problem as I see it.

The Calcium will raise the pH and the Oxygen released will lower the pH, so they will effect the water in some way, proberly not much as they also cancel each other out to some extend.

So I would call back and find out what kinda hypochlorite they are useing, then maybe someone with expiriance with one of them will know if it's any danger or not.

You could also send a e-mail to the company who make your water conditioner and ask them if there product will handle Sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl) and Calcium hypochlorit (CaCl2O2) of if they have something else for that purpose.

Hope you can use this and it helps

:fish:


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

*Pali* - thanks for the info. I'm waiting to hear back to see which one it is. In the mean time, I found a website here that has a chart of what activated carbon absorbs, and how well.

It says that both (NaOCl) and (CaCl2O2) are absorbed very well. Not sure if it's legit, but I plan on having carbon in the sump regardless.

I also found this website that said that chlorine in our drinking/tap water comes to us as Sodium Hypochlorite


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

I would treat is as regular chlorine.
I'm guessing for your drip setup you should be fine.
It should gas off just fine especially at the rate it will trickle into the tank.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Here's one of the best articles I've seen in a while on chlorine and chloramines and he also speaks of hypochlorites. He confirms that a dechlor product will take care of neutralizing it. He also confirms that it'll gas off same as chlorine.

Making Tap Water Safe for the Aquarium


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

Awesome, thanks for finding this article!


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## merkey (Nov 26, 2008)

Hi, I work for a water treatment plant in my state and I have a 180 gallon cichlid tank and a 60 gallon reef tank. So I have plenty of experience on both ends.

First of all it is usually a sodium hypochlorite,it just means that they feed a liquid solution chlorine product without adding ammonia. We have to add Ammonia to water in order to neutralize the dreaded (lol) TriHaloMethanes or THM's in drinking water. Somebody in the E.P.A says that a study proves that if you drink an X amount of water for an X amount of days that the T.H.M's can cause cancer. Its something like 8 gallons a day for 60 years lol. You would drown before you could drink that much water. anyway.....

DO NOT set up a drip system using any municipal water system. I can not stress this enough. There is to much room for error because we are constantly changing chemicals and treatment proccess. For example if the E.P.A. finds high THM's in their water,they will have to add ammonia to form chloramines to lower the THM's. By the time you get the letter as a consumer your tank will be filled with ammonia. It can happen at any time,they test it weekly or monthly depending on your state.

Also adding drop by drop of chlorinated water into your tank (no matter what type of chlorine chemical) maybe safe for a short while but if you are not dechlorinating regularly it will build up past the breakpoint chlorination point and leave a chlorine residual in you tank. By this time the fish will be dead.

As an operator and fish lover please get a R.O. unit if you plan on setting up a drip system. Much safer and getting cheaper all the time. The treatment plants have way to many rules and and regs to rely on for aquarium hobbiest drip systems. You might get lucky but why risk it. I added a 110 gallon a day R.O.D.I unit to my home for less than 150 bucks.

Also Cabon will adsorb some of it. This is ONE of the MANY reasons why we prechlorinate (before filtration) and postchlorinate (after filtration) in our water plants. Activated Carbon or black gold as we call its does wonders for water. I would reccomend adding it to anyone.I run it in both my fresh and salt tanks.

Last but not least oxygen does not lower PH. Carbon dioxide does. if you have a digital PH meter try it. Take a cup of NON BUFFERED water,stick the meter in and look at the reading. Now take a straw and blow into the cup and you can watch the PH drop. your body turns oxygen into carbon dioxide then when released into the water the PH drops. Algae blooms can cause increases and decreases (night and day) due to the breathing of the algae. But thats a whole other book on water chemistry and I hope your algae doesnt get that bad.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Good info *merkey*, thanks. :thumb:


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

Thanks *merkey*! Very helpful info. You may appreciate my municipality, I believe it's the only (or oldest, can't remember which) sand bed filtration system in the country. My father-in-law works there and has shown me around, it's very interesting!

Knowing that the chlorine would build up to intolerable levels, I am planning on a 6 gallon/day drip. I've read other threads that say that it dissipates in 24 hours (I'm putting together a wet/dry DIY sump).

If I wanted to set this drip up prior to obtaining an R.O. (any suggestions on which one?) would I be able to maintain safe levels by dechlorinating 1-2 times a week? This would knock down any chlorine levels that do not dissipate within 24 hours.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

I think that if you add chlorinated tap water via a drip system, you will never measure any chlorine in the tank water. The chlorine will react instantly with organics in the water. The test I did involved a 50/50 mix of 4ppm tap water and old tank water. When I mixed them the chlorine level read .75ppm, and 5 minutes later the was no measurable chlorine. 4 ppm is a high chlorine level, considering the target level for a swimming pool, is 1 to 1.5.


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

Thanks, I've read similar statements in other threads on the topic. Based on those threads I don't think I would get much chlorine build up, if any, with a 6 gallon a day drip. I would still put some StressCoat in a couple times a week as a precaution.

So I think the main concern is what Merkey mentioned, the municipality could add/switch the chemicals they are using. I'll have to get an RO eventually, but maybe until then I will ask my father-in-law to let me know immediately if he is told to use different chemicals.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I've also had a small measure of water treatment experience but at a different level then Merkey. I do agree with what he has said but add some other thoughts. Part of my experience was managing/doing the water treatment for a community water treatment. At our level (100+/- meters) at the time we had DNR requirements to meet. Part of that was assuring there was a chlorine residual left at the test sites throughout the neighborhood. There was reguired to be a measurable amount but also a definite upper limit. If I remember it was 4PPM upper limit. We used standard off the shelf bleach to inject into the system for chlorine. The jugs say sodium hypochlite for active ingredient. If you check your bleach at home you may find the same. One of the major problems for maintaining this level was the distance to the test facility. We were in a lake area 40 miles south of Springfield, Mo. The samples had to be taken and driven directly to the lab to avoid the chlorine residual dissipating before it was tested causing us to get a black mark on the record! UPS overnight in a closed brown bottle and boxed would not get it done in time. If only chlorine is used-not chloramine, it will dissipate quickly once exposed to fresh air.


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

Good info *PfunMo*. I think that with a wet/dry DIY sum, there will be a lot of exposure to air. So as long as the variables don't change, I'll be OK.

When the variables do change and the water department begins using different chemicals, then I'm in trouble (if I don't know in time).


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Good chance you will be good for quite a while. Small operations are set up to do chlorine injection with just a small tank and a small metering pump. The one I dealt with had a thirty gallon plastic tank next to the wellhead. Each time the pump kicked on the injector pumped a shot of bleach water into the line. All the maintenance it took was somebody to make sure the thirty gallons didn't run dry and check the pumps. In our area that took 15-25 days depending on how much water was used so we only checked the well twice a month or so as long as the test readings came back good. We bought bleach at Wall-mart for $1 a jug, two jugs a month. To switch to chloramine would mean quite a change for a small operation. Not apt to happen without some major driving factor.


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## merkey (Nov 26, 2008)

I would agree with PfunMo if it were a small operation. But your bio says central New York you have to be hooked up to a big treatment center unless you are in a private community with their own small water system. That is hard to find in New York. How big is your Tank?? If you set up a wet/dry set up you will lower your chances of danger.

But remember please,there is always a chance of trouble with a drip system hooked to a maniciple water system . For example I have seen float valves go bad and systems get constant drips until you notices a leak. Any little thing can be trouble when adding chlorine of any type at a constant rate to an aquarium system.

Look I know I am being way over cautious but I see these systems first hand every day. The new guy over flowing chlorine or even a distribution system with a backflow problem. Then some pesticide truck is kicking deadly chemicals into the water system. All from trying to clean out his truck using the fire hydrant down the street from your house. It happens all the time. We have all seen or heard of the boil your water for 5 minutes before drinking because of a water scare.

I am sorry but i have way too much money in my tanks(and love for my fish) to leave a drip system hook up while I am away. Go on vacation for a week,dont get the news and BAM dead fish.


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

Again, love the input *merkey*. I am in Ilion NY with a small water system. I would set the drip system by barely turning on a valve on a refrigerator line (and an overflow drilled into the sump), no float valves.

I love to hear your concerns, because I'm writing down some rules to follow, like turn off the drip system before vacation! (nothing beats a good ol' water change in these situations)

While I am going to set this up, I may only run it over the weekends, when I can treat the water at the same time.

I am setting up a 75 Malawi. Currently performing regular water changes with dechlorine in 2 other smaller tanks.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Since I have chloramine here, I have gone to plan "B" for water changes. My tap water has pretty extreme temperature changes winter/summer which were giving me fits also. They are run exposed along the garage wall. I now run water into the fishroom/spare bedroom and store it in a large trash can. I use Prime to treat it as I fill the can. With a heater and bubbler, the water is then up to temp and dechlor. the next day, ready to use. I leave a dedicated pump in the can with a plastic tube to run to the tanks. I built a remote switch on a tether to carry along from tank to tank to control the pump without hanging or dropping the hose. Really has made water changing much nicer without the fiddle of watching the temp. 
After the tank is filled I have a raw water hose to refill the trash can. Any chance that might work for you?


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

PfunMo said:


> Since I have chloramine here, I have gone to plan "B" for water changes. My tap water has pretty extreme temperature changes winter/summer which were giving me fits also. They are run exposed along the garage wall. I now run water into the fishroom/spare bedroom and store it in a large trash can. I use Prime to treat it as I fill the can. With a heater and bubbler, the water is then up to temp and dechlor. the next day, ready to use. I leave a dedicated pump in the can with a plastic tube to run to the tanks. I built a remote switch on a tether to carry along from tank to tank to control the pump without hanging or dropping the hose. Really has made water changing much nicer without the fiddle of watching the temp.
> After the tank is filled I have a raw water hose to refill the trash can. Any chance that might work for you?


That could certainly work. It's nearly the same set up, but gives me a chance to treat the water first. Only additional items are another pump and a location to put the garbage can.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I had meant to use a tank under one stand instead of the trashcan. Trouble is, the tanks keep getting fish in them! :lol:


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

PfunMo said:


> I had meant to use a tank under one stand instead of the trashcan. Trouble is, the tanks keep getting fish in them! :lol:


Ha, aint that the truth! I already have plans to put a 10 to 30 gallon (depending on what fits in the stand) in as a home for holding mothers/grow-out.


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

Update, nearly 2 years later. I set up the auto-drip today. Very easy and took me about 40 minutes. We're still receiving chlorine through our small town private water set up, so I'll be safe until my father-in-law retires and I no longer have that direct link to the water department.

I'll post back if I have any issues (leaks, overflows, etc.).

I used the following:


Refrigerant water line dripping into the tank (for ice makers, self taps into copper pipe)
Bulk head on the sump, 
Plastic tube, draining the sump to the sewer to the basement (through a hole in the floor)


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

Glad to hear this is working out well for you. I am using very similar systems on my 240G, 125G and 75G. The one on the 240G has been running continuously for 7 years to provide 10% water changes per day. The other two systems have been running for about 3 years each. I use no dechlorinator, no carbon filter, and no RO unit. Sure, there is a risk that the city water could be contaminated with something, but heck, nobody I know does a full chemical analysis of their tap water before they do a manual water change! The risk taken seems greater to me, since you are changing a larger amount of water in a short time. My fish have never done better than in the drip-system tanks, and I love to come back from vacation to tanks with perfect water quality :thumb:


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Nice to get a report on a long gone topic. The topic is still a hot debate so it is still relevant info.
It is my contention that the chlorine in water is as much a "political" view to be debated as much as a real hazard that we have to worry silly over. We worry it will kill our fish and that is certainly true if they are exposed to a lot of it or over a long time. But then we know there is only a tiny amount of chlorine in the water when it leaves the water treatment plant and all along the way it reacts with any organics it finds. If there is 1 PPM of chlorine left in the water when it enters your tank due to some fluctuation of conditions, what will it do? It will react with organics. That can be your fish's gills and harm them. Or it can also be a bunch of dirt, grung, algae, wood, and uneaten food waste. Done repeatedly and strong enough, it can be a problem.

In my tank, there are plenty of organics besides the fish!


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

fmueller said:


> Glad to hear this is working out well for you. I am using very similar systems on my 240G, 125G and 75G. The one on the 240G has been running continuously for 7 years to provide 10% water changes per day. The other two systems have been running for about 3 years each. I use no dechlorinator, no carbon filter, and no RO unit. Sure, there is a risk that the city water could be contaminated with something, but heck, nobody I know does a full chemical analysis of their tap water before they do a manual water change! The risk taken seems greater to me, since you are changing a larger amount of water in a short time. My fish have never done better than in the drip-system tanks, and I love to come back from vacation to tanks with perfect water quality :thumb:


I regret not refering to your website when I wrote this thread, but I definitely used your set up as my blueprint - thanks for sharing through your website!


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

PfunMo said:


> Nice to get a report on a long gone topic. The topic is still a hot debate so it is still relevant info.
> It is my contention that the chlorine in water is as much a "political" view to be debated as much as a real hazard that we have to worry silly over. We worry it will kill our fish and that is certainly true if they are exposed to a lot of it or over a long time. But then we know there is only a tiny amount of chlorine in the water when it leaves the water treatment plant and all along the way it reacts with any organics it finds. If there is 1 PPM of chlorine left in the water when it enters your tank due to some fluctuation of conditions, what will it do? It will react with organics. That can be your fish's gills and harm them. Or it can also be a bunch of dirt, grung, algae, wood, and uneaten food waste. Done repeatedly and strong enough, it can be a problem.
> 
> In my tank, there are plenty of organics besides the fish!


Same here, lot's of organics! I dialed it in to drip around 6 gallons a day. That's around 6% of my total water... with the overflow & sump, the chlorine is given prime opportunity to dissolve. Whether that's accurate reasoning or not, I'm not sure. I'll probably dump some stress coat or prime in occasionally, just to reset.


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

I thought I would be able to control the flow with the saddle valve, however, it does not remain consistent. A few days in-between adjustments and the new water is back to flowing as a very slow steady stream (I have had to keep the tank treated).

So, now I'm on a search for the small valves - anyone know what they are called?

I also noticed that I get a lot of bubbles in the line because I have the saddle valve closed so far. I can't see any reason this is bad, but allowing the line to be full pressure with a valve on the end would eliminate this.

**Edit** Found the valve: http://www.lowes.com/pd_27464-104-P...rrentURL=/pl__0__s?Ntt=1%2F4+valve&facetInfo=


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## fmueller (Jan 11, 2004)

I have three tanks with auto water changers via saddle valves. Only one saddle valves keeps changing the flow, but in my case it tends to close after a few days. The plastic valve you found should take care of the problem :thumb:


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

Update: I've had a lot of success with this since February. The water is of very good quality and since doing this I've had a few waves of baby fish (didn't happen before this set up).

I am very over stocked in my 75 gallon, yet, I still have about 8 babies surviving from the last wave. I attribute this to the rocks in my tank that offer lots of hiding places.

I keep the new water coming in just under a steady stream. I have given up on measuring the new water.


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

BTW: I didn't add charcoal and rarely put dechlor in. I haven't had any diseases since starting this. I only did one water change, and that was only to vacuum the sand to get rid of the waste material.


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Thanks for the update and glad this method is working well for you.


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## jchild40 (Mar 20, 2010)

ha! I just realized I wrote charcoal instead of carbon.


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