# Seting Up: Will Rocks Fall?



## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

I've had my 55 gallon tank running for about 2 months now. Everything is essentially cycled, though my tap water has an Ammonia level around 1PPM (Annoying for water changes).
BUT, the PH of my tap is off the charts high, which should be pretty good...

Anyway, I only have about 10 community fish currently, and I plan on obviously re-gifting them to the LFS.

I want to get Africans, and I know that most of the plants currently will be devoured. I bought some more Java and Anubius today.

Questions on turning it into to a Cichlid tank...
- Is my substrate ok? It's a 50/50 mix of "River gravel/pebbles" and Fluorite. 
- Will the driftwood be ok?

- And most importantly, do you HAVE to glue the rocks if you're Cave building? I was planning on going to a nursery tomorrow and buying a bunch of rocks, but I'm afraid that it's going to topple over with the digging.

A guy at the fish store said that as long as you place the base rock deep within the substrate, on the glass that it should be fine. Since it wouldn't disrupt the base rock since it's already at the very bottom. Does that sound right?

I'm excited about switching over...


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Here's a few pics of what I'm working with.


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

Yeah, as long as you make it pretty stable, you should be okay. If you want to, for extra safety, you can silicone them in place, but then the stuff has to cure, and then it doesn't stick very well, and all that nonsense. So what I've always done is just stack them firm and stable.
Good luck, and look forward to pics. of the new setup,

Manoah Marton


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

No need to glue, just stack the rocks solidly. No balancing. And yes, rocks go on the bottom, add the substrate after the rocks are in place and digging cannot impact them.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

One more thing while I have this thread going.
I've been watching a lot of youtube videos on cichlid setups, and 2 people have mentioned that it's better to start the tank out with all your fish.

They had like 10-12 cichlids and said that if you were to add a new one, there'd be a "fight to the death"

I wasn't planning on buying them all at one time, but is that the way you're supposed to do it?
I was going to do a few every few weeks or something, but no reasoning behind it really.


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

No experience on this, but as long as you 'fishless cycle' your tank to biologically accomodate your whole stocklist, I would add them all at once. Because if you add them a few at a time, the noobs will always be picked on because they don't have any territory, and are considered outsiders. So if I were stocking the tank, I would add them all at once.
Best of luck,

Manoah Marton


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Manoah Marton said:


> No experience on this, but as long as you 'fishless cycle' your tank to biologically accomodate your whole stocklist, I would add them all at once.


Thanks.

Like I said, I think my tank is pretty much Cycled.
I've got 0 Nitrite, about a 10PPM Nitrate, and my Ammonia still kind of goes up and down from 0PPM to .25PPM.
I've had about 12 fish in there for 2 months.
(6 Danios, 2 Gourami, and 6 Red Eyed Tetra)

So I guess the tank shouldn't be overwhelmed if I add them all.

I am overdo for my first Carbon change in the filter, hopefully that won't affect the good bacteria too much.


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## 18fisher (Mar 2, 2006)

rocks and glue, just thought i add a little something i stacked rocks all the way tothe top made them very secure,so i thought one night around 200 am one fell seemed like no big deal,next thing i new it blew up all over the place,what a mess,so if you can glue them i would just in case,im still cleaning up the mess,it been about 3 weeks now, i would of never thought that a 55 gallon could make that much of a mess,hope that helps some,also i have done this in all 5 of my tanks and never had a rock even move in the 10 years of fish keeping. but it can happen,and always at the worst time,so lesson learned i will be glueing everything from now on hope thyat helps ps it was a very small rock that did it :thumb:


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Try to get your ammonia stable at zero. If the fish you are adding are the same number and size as the fish you have in there you can add them all at once, but it is not necessary.Don't forget to account for the bulk of cichlids...12 oscars will have a larger bioload than 12 danios, tetras and gourami.

It's true you don't want to add one fish, but you can add groups of six without a problem. And if you start with juvies and add the groups every week or every other week your hierarchy won't be well established. The downside is when adding new groups you should quarantine them and that means separate tanks and 3 weeks of waiting each time.

If ordering online, add them all to save on shipping. If you are worried about bioload, add Dr. Tim's One and Only with the fish. If buying at a LFS, groups are OK.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Depending on the fish you choose, gluing the rocks may not be worth the time. Mbuna that are mouther breeders will quite likely need to be caught if you want fry. That means taking the rocks out. I find there is no way I'm catching yellow labs if the rocks are there.! I also find placing the rocks directly on the bottom is not practical in this case. I just wiggle them down in the sand as much as possible and go with it. For bigger cichlids it may work to glue the rocks but I wonder about getting the grunge out from under them if they are never moved. If you take the rocks out to catch fish and clean adding new fish is not that big a deal. It will leave the group so shocked they are not worried about who's the new guy. It is a matter of getting fish that are compatible and being ready to change if trouble begins to show.

The plants may look like salad for some cichlids.

No problem with other decor. You most likely have lots of buffering in your water so you are good there.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks for all the responses...
I went out today and bought some rocks.
I thought about trying to find some, but I'm too lazy. It wasn't too bad money wise, around $25.

I bought like 40Lbs worth. Probably about 30 decent sized rocks, which might be on the low side of "Caves"

I bought mostly smooth circular stones, many this cool green looking color along with a few pieces of thin slate like rocks for 1 specific cave.

I assume that the additional rock weight will be fine as far as my tank and stand go, right?

It's just a standard 55 gallon Perfecto Combo.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

I have like 150 lbs in my 75G, you should be fine.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Very good...
Now I just have to arrange them, which I know is going to take me forever to decide on :?

I'll post a photo once I'm done, to see if I have a decent enough setup. I think I'll get a lot of "not enough caves"


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Don't try to build caves with back and roof. Think in terms of cubicles instead that are open overhead. The idea is each male wants a patch of substrate with line of sight blocked between him and the next male. He just needs boundaries he can defend. The females will flock overhead.

You could make an "S" or a zig-zag down the length of the tank and the males will claim the "V" shaped notches. along the front and the back.

Built into the "cubicle walls" make sure there are plenty of barely-fish-sized swim throughs and alleys for the females to hide or lose chasing males.

I always thought if the fish had an enclosed cave he or she would defend it and keep the aggressor out. That does not happen...the aggressor just swims right in too and the female or sub-dom male swims right out where they will be exposed to other aggressors. Don't know why...it just is.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

So I put the rocks in...
I think it looks OK, but obviously I wasn't able to pile them up to the top at all. I went with more of the cubicles I guess.
Just sectioned off areas.

The main problems were the 2 pieces of driftwood, they took up a lot of space.

So this is what I did. Not a ton of caves, but hopefully the sections will work(?) and they can go into the driftwood area maybe.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I would suggest some more flat rocks. You can take advantage of the driftwood to lay some flats leaning on it. The fish will like the driftwood for ducking in and around. If you ever get out on the Meramec, etc. where the water is clear, you'll see lots of places where the water has moved rocks up on top of wood so it will still fit "natural". With the rounded river rock it may be hard to keep them stacked round on round. Stacking flat on top of round will stay better. Just a point that you may want to keep in mind. Rocks really close to the glass tend to make algae on the glass which you can't get at to clean. I leave a space. Now might also be a good time to think about a black background to the tank so that you can't look through and see the filter and such. Paint,black paper or cloth all work.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

I've got some rocks left over, but the'yre not really flat. That was the problem, I tried to used the flatest ones I was able to grab.

As far as the background, I actually have a backdrop that I bought. I put it up against the glass but thought it kind of looked cheesy.
It's just a solid double sided with blue and black. Maybe I'll try it again.

As far as cleaning the gravel, do you guys with cichlids and the rocks just go around them or leave the gravel alone as long as the tank is clean?

I can see that being a problem with so much going on atop the substrate.


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I'm now using sand with lots of rocks but I believe most will use the vac to suck all they can out of the sand or gravel. One of the things I like about sand over gravel is that the waste tends to stay on top of sand where it goes down between the pieces of small gravel where it is harder to vac out. I think many of us do get a bit carried away with worries about cleaning the bottom even when the water qualities test good. We just don't like knowing debris is down there and may bite us if we don't get it out.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

^
That makes sense.

As far as my setup goes, if my water is good, can I add some Cichlids or is the aquascape no good?

Any opinions wanted. opcorn:


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

define 'Cichlids'... :lol:


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Manoah Marton said:


> define 'Cichlids'... :lol:


Well, I checked out my local non-chain fish store and this is what they all had labeled "African Cichlid"

I was told by the guy working there that I can mix with Peacocks. I have no idea if that's true...
Here's the list:

Lamp Brichardi
Lamp Albino
Distichodus Sexfaciatus
Auratus
Venustus
Red Top Zebra
Albino Zebra
Yellow Lab
Red Bloatch Zebra
Cobalt Blue Zebra

MSOBO
Jacobfreibergi 
Rusty Zebra
Exasperatus
Duboisi

Peacocks(?)
Electric Blue
O.B Peacock
Acei
Frontosa
Gold Tropheops


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Are you thinking about Malawi or Tanganyika? Mixed gender or all male?

With all male (for which a 55G is not ideal) you can mix peacocks. If you have males and females in the tank, one peacock species guarantees you will not have hybrid peacocks.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

DJRansome said:


> Are you thinking about Malawi or Tanganyika? Mixed gender or all male?
> 
> With all male (for which a 55G is not ideal) you can mix peacocks. If you have males and females in the tank, one peacock species guarantees you will not have hybrid peacocks.


I'm probably going with Lake Malawi.
As far as male and female go, unless they're separated in the stores which I didn't see, I assume I'll probably just get whatever the kid gets with his net... So mixing sex I guess.

By Hybrid Peacocks, do you mean as far a breeding? Because I'm not really looking for breeding.


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

Thing is, they'll breed whether you want it or not. That's why it's best to have either Male Only, or only one species. Also, you might want to look into Tangs. You could get an awesome Tang tank in a 55. :thumb: Its up to you though.

Manoah Marton


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

I guess it's just preference as far as Tanganyika vs. Malawi?
Kind of seems like there's more Malawi at fish shops, at least locally.

I've got my PH consistently around 8.2 thanks to my high PH Water.

Looks like tomorrow I might go out and get some fish. Gotta decide tonight which way to go.

I also bought another Sword plant today, which I read _might_ last. I decided I'd take a chance. I like live plants...


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Now I'm worried about all this breeding...
Is it more breeding than your standard community freshwaters? If they do breed, is that a big deal on the tank as far as care?


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

Yes, it's just preference. Generally, Tangs have more interesting personalities, while Malawis have better colors. I find more subtle colors and more interesting behaviors more intriguing, but to each his own. 
Do you have pics. of the new rockwork?
Also, I don't think you'd define it as 'more' breeding, but they make more of a fuss when they do. (e.g. guppies just have babies and then abandom them...most cichlids defend their fry and are more aggressive when they do spawn.)
Best of luck,

Manoah Marton


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

As far as rockwork, I'm still where I was on the first page.
The second set of photos.

Not a ton of rocks, but I'm not sure how many more I can spatially put in there, aside from stacking higher and higher.


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

More rock imo. Here's a pic. of my Tang tank...and it's only a 20 gallon!








\

You kind of want height in the display, so the fish will utilize all levels of the tank. Also, more rockwork will help establish territories.
So I would add a LOT more rocks...and (couldn't help but give my opinion on this) change the substrate from gravel to sand. :thumb: 
Best of luck,

Manoah Marton


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

My advise is to go slow and adjust as you find what you like. I find no major difference in the two lakes as far as interesting. I think you could do more rocks but I would not wait for more rocks if the tank is ready. It seems folly to wait to get the perfect tank until you have a chance to find out what YOU think is perfect. I've been at this for years and still don't know what my perfect tank will be. I would suggest going with some of the less aggressive fish that you like for their colors. Keep in mind there is a good chance you will make a mistake and the first fish you buy may not turn out to work for what you want. Many of us still do that because no two fish behave the exact same when you put them in different tanks. I use an educated guess and change it if it doesn't work. I would get a few (3-5) yellow labs for their color and add a few 
Peacocks or haps. Get small ones and let them grow. The labs like the rocks and the others don't care so they get along for me. Just watch to see what the fish do and then you can certainly sell them easy enough in your area. In the meantime, you will be learning a lot and wasting little money on things you may regret. DO NOT just buy fish on the LS word. Look at the profiles of fish on this forum and others to get a better idea of how aggressive each might be. Study first, buy second.


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

Great advice.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks.
That looks much bigger than a 20 gallon.
For some reason my 55 looks small in photos.

I'm going to buy a gravel vac today and do a little work, tons of **** is coming up when I move stuff around. Then I'm buying a few more rocks and doing some rearranging. I think if I move that center driftwood over to the side I can make a higher rock stacking in the middle.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Alright, this vacuum isn't working too well with everything in the tank.
So here are my new thoughts.

Take everything out, rocks and driftwood. Take out the plants, put them in a bucket of tank-water.

Use the vacuum, and basically take out 100% of the water. Then I figure it'll be so much easier to make the caves/cubicles and position things the way I want them.

It's tough to do with the water in there...

So will this crash my tanks bio-filter? I can do all of this over a few hours tomorrow or Weds. Will the filter bio stuff be ok if it's off for a few hours?


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

Keep it wet and it will be good to go. Room temperature as well. Don't set them on the furnace grill,etc.  You are right to not let the plants dry. I wiped one out just while cleaning and catching fish.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

So I'm in the middle of the whole process right now...
Waiting for my brother to come home to help me completely drain the tank, there's like a half inch of water I can't get up.

Rinsed all the substrate, wiped off the glass, should be good to go once he gets back.

The filter has been sitting, off, for about 2 hours now. But it's completely filled to the brink with the water from the tank. Hopefully it'll be fine.

I bought some Tetra Safe start with the bio-spira just in case it got messed up, hopefully that'll help.

Time to rick build

The whole thing was a real pain... so many buckets of water :x


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Gotta get a Python!


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

Is that some kind of water siphon? 
I ended up not even using the little $12 one I bought. I just rinsed the gravel with a hose.

Everything is set up... And it looks eerily similar to the last time I out the rock in, but oh well.
It's cleaner.

I again wasn't really able to artistically grasp the stacking, so I just build more cubicles and repositioned the driftwood.
I ran out of fishing line, so on one of the anubias I had to use some mint dental floss. I figured the mint wouldn't hurt anything, I put in some hot water for about 10 minutes and mint smell was gone.

I'll post photos in a bit.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The Python "No Spill Clean and Fill" is a siphon with extras. Mine is 50 feet long. It has a "pump" with a switch. Attaches to the faucet. One way it sucks the water out of the tank. Flip the switch and it fills the tank. No need for gravity, my sink is a floor below the tanks. Drains or refills a 125G in 20 minutes.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

So after doing all that work there's very little difference if I look bad on page 1 :roll:

Oh well, I'm going with what I got...
There should be plenty of areas for them to territorialize I hope. They can hang out by the driftwood, there's plenty of "Cubilces" for them to clock in at.

I'm kind of disappointed that it looks so similar, but I guess there are more sectioned off spaces. I plan on getting the more "moderately aggressive" ones anyways so hopefully I have little to no problems.


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## Gumbo_Ghost (Sep 25, 2010)

I bought some fish today...
I also ended up putting the 75 Gallon bottle of Tetra Safe Start with the live bacteria just in case the filter didn't make it through.

The water appears to still be cloudy. Not sure if it's the rocks or the Safestart, but hopefully it clears up a bit.

I was told that these would all be fine.

1 Frontosa
2 Yellow Labs
1 Albino Zebra
2 Red Peacocks


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## Manoah Marton (Feb 17, 2009)

Okay two comments...
One, get that front outa there asap. they get upto 14 inches, and he will ultimately not compatable with the other species. post on malawi forum for stocking suggestions...or look on library of this site.
Two, here's a hint in aquascaping that I've used. When stacking rocks, pretend your making a wall. Two rocks next to eachother on the bottom, then one on the top. but then expand that. By using, different shaped/sized rocks, you end up with a very cool display. Or, you can literally put the rock in with not order at all, and you will have a very natural looking setup. Considering you chose Malawi (or even if you had chosen tangs) you need more rock. Like 3 or 4 times the amount you currently have. They like a TON of caves and such.
Got to go, but remember...front's gotta go, and build aquascapes like walls,

Manoah Marton


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Manoah Marton said:


> front's gotta go


Agree, and either the zebra or the peacocks. Peacocks need the very least aggressive mbuna like labs, or no mbuna at all.


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## TexasFishGuy (Aug 20, 2010)

To me it looks like you are thinking too much about the look of the rock stacking....start with the rocks you have and just build a couple Stable piles with those. Don't worry so much about what the stacks look like, just make sure they are not going to collapse, then you can get more rocks from there. Things in nature are beautiful because they are so unique and random.


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## kingdave (Mar 9, 2007)

In nature rocks come in a variety of different sizes.. Your rocks look too similar too one another in size. Add a few LARGE ones and also some pebbles to the mix and it will look a lot more natural. I generally build a structure with caves and passages with the larger rocks, and use the medium sized rocks to "encrust" the structure and create more variety. I finish by randomly scattering small pebbles throughout the tank and on the rock structure. Also keep in mind that there is not really much driftwood in Lake Malawi and it may serve to lower your pH below ideal levels.

Otherwise, you are doing a great job... I for one appreciate the updates on the progress of your tank and we are all here to help whenever you need us


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## PfunMo (Jul 30, 2009)

I don't know which part of the St. Louis area you are in but most likely driftwood will not lower the PH. You probably have alkaline very hard water making it hard to change the PH. Over time, you will most likely need to have some testing stuff on hand. When tanks are new they have a number of ways to get off after a month of use. Called new tank syndrome by many, the only way to really work through it , is by testing for ammonia, nitrate and nitrite. Without measuring the PH, etc. , many things will just be guesswork. Testing and understanding what is happening will tell you if the bacteria is good or not.


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