# Filters



## Robtheheretic (Nov 14, 2009)

i know there is always a topic new on filters and i dont mean to be noob and put up another one but here we go.

so right now i have a Penguin 350 community tank that has mostly run of the mill fish other then the 5 anglels and a ram.(it works good it does the trick)

im getting ready to set up my other 55gl as an african and i was wondering if just one Penguin 350 would be good or if i should get a 2nd, or other option just pay more and get a canister?


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Would always suggest 2 filters.
Putting all your eggs in a single filter basket, just isn`t good planning..
I have a pair of 350 on a 55 and they are doing a great job, couldn`t be happier.
As far as a canister purchase..
There is a general "class" system that has grown.
HOB have been deemed entry level filtration with canisters as the way to go after you have gained some "tank time".
If you look to any previous postings, you will see that a quality, well maintained filter is what your tank needs.
Type is up to you.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i'd say tack on an emperor 400, you might like it better than a penguin (i sure do) and it would add a little extra filtration over the penguin.

i wouldn't steer you in the direction of a canister because you seem to ba happy with an hob and there is no point to look elsewhere if that is true


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

I prefer Aqua Clear filters when it comes to HOB style filters... but the Emp & Pen are pretty good to.

When I last had a 55 gal set up I used two AC 110s (500 gph) and was very happy with the filtration... I was not completely happy with the filtration when I had only one large HOB on it...

Addign a canister as opposed to an HOB is an option, but just to mention, I've kept Cichlid the majority of the last 25+ years and I still rely heavily on HOBs. Don't let anyone convince you they are "newbie" filters...

Just like everything in life, each filter style/brand has pros and cons. Consider the pros & cons of each style and decide which suits your needs/wants best.


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## Cento (Mar 30, 2005)

To be the Devil's Advocate here: Many of the "pro's" that canister "people" use to argue its advantage are quite valid. As always, I suggest research. Look through threads here on the arguments or "discussions" that have been had on HOB vs Canister (there have been hundreds) and see for yourself.

At the very least, both sides usually agree that its advantageous to have both setup on a tank to spread your "filter" chips across the board...


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

unless you have issues with any aspect of an hob i would say stick with them, save the money i use lots of hob's and they do a great job, i also have a canister, just ordered a second one


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## TKC747 (Dec 5, 2008)

If you ever want to use Seachem Matrix, a filter media that supposedly lets anaerobic bacteria in the core of the matrix pebbles turn nitrAtes into nitrogen, you most likely would want to use a canister. Matrix, in a HOB works but not as well.

Oh, Water Changes are just as if not more effective to remove nitrAtes, but I use it because it slows down the nitrAtes even more.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

Cento said:


> At the very least, both sides usually agree that its advantageous to have both setup on a tank to spread your "filter" chips across the board...


While I definitely agree some of the advantages canisters offer are valid... I do not agree that using one of each is a good idea  In my eyes, the bigger advantages of a cansiter is their ability to function silently and to keep the rim of the tank much neater. Using one of each defeats both of these advantages...



TKC747 said:


> If you ever want to use Seachem Matrix, a filter media that supposedly lets anaerobic bacteria in the core of the matrix pebbles turn nitrAtes into nitrogen, you most likely would want to use a canister.


I don't believe for a minute that Matrix or any of the other bio nuggets house anerobic bacteria... and I have not talked to any users who have any evidence that it does... Don't believe everything that the manufacturer tells ya


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

ceramic rings are cheap and fit into just about any filter

and i agree with toby, there is no real point to have both hob's and canisters, the main difference is noise and if i was going to have an hob at all on a tank, that's all i would use aside from a powerhead or two

currently running two hob's on my 20 long, both have sponge refilters, one is a penguin and the other a tetra whisper

i reuse the plastic frames for the filters for the penguin by hot gluing new floss onto it. since i don't have that option with the tetras i decided to buy the rings made for the ac 70, the bag is the perfect size to fill up the tetra, so it is solely a bio filter and so far so good, the sponge acts as a moderate mechanical filter and it aids in water movement, and the penguin take care of the fine mechanical, as well as chemical and bio filtration


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## Robtheheretic (Nov 14, 2009)

thank you every one. the main thing i liked about canisters was "the multi media" but i was just looking at some mods and it looks like i can add another media time to my HOB.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

see emperors come with spare media baskets that you can shove whatever you want in, as long as it fits of course


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## Robtheheretic (Nov 14, 2009)

really iwas i did not know that are the filter pads alot more are about the same, i just moved and dont have internet yet i been doing this all on my phone other wise i would check the prices my self


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

no the premade one are larger for emperors, but i cut off the blue floss and hot glue quilt batting onto the frame, makes it so much cheaper


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## TKC747 (Dec 5, 2008)

Toby_H said:


> TKC747 said:
> 
> 
> > If you ever want to use Seachem Matrix, a filter media that supposedly lets anaerobic bacteria in the core of the matrix pebbles turn nitrAtes into nitrogen, you most likely would want to use a canister.
> ...


Hmmm. I spent $40.00 on those pebbles Darn!!! They should at least hold aerobic bacteria at the surface?

Tom


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

mardi gras beads will hold bacteria and you can get those for free while hammered (especially if you are a girl or have one with you)


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

TKC747 said:


> Hmmm. I spent $40.00 on those pebbles Darn!!! They should at least hold aerobic bacteria at the surface?


Yes, those bio pebbles or bio nuggets are fine/great for common "bio media" that holds the aerobic bacteria that oxidizes ammonia into nitite and nitrite into nitrate...

If you read their claims, they suggest the aerobic bacteria on the surface use all the o2 in the water leaving oxygen depleted water flowign through the core where anaerobic bacteria can form.

A) The bacteria on the surface isn't going to use anywhere close to "all" of the oxygen in the water that is flowing through the nugget... B) Since water seeks the path of least resistance, not a whole lot of water is going to ever force it's way through 'the core' of these nuggets.

Also due to B) the vast majority of the exaggerated 'surface area' they boast having will never see enough water movement to host bacteria...

When we just read the claims on the label a product will often sound amazing... then when we read and think abotu the explaination of how it works we often understand the brief claims are something between total nonsense and silly exaggerations...

Keep in mind they only have to prove that in a single situation something is true, and they can boast that it is true... despite the fact none of us will ever reproduce that one off the wall situation...

Truth in advertising died many years ago...


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## dkbrasher (Oct 11, 2009)

I have been very please with my Emp 400. You can pick them up on Ebay pretty cheap along with extra filter cartridges, if needed. They come with 2 of the blue cartridges that last a while. I have shoved quilt batting in the spare media baskets in the past to polish the water and it works great! And the batting costs less than $3 at Wal-Mart for a big bag. The main idea is that you can customize them any way you want.

I have never used an Aq. Clear or Pen but have heard good things about them. I just know I am very pleased with the performance of the Emp 400. I plan on adding another one after the first of the year.


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## cjacob316 (Dec 4, 2008)

i agree with the majority of surface area being restricted with matrix, where bio balls and ceramic rings are more easily accessable


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

Contrary to other's opinions, I do believe you get some measure of denitrification from appropriate medias and have documented evidence of it in my a couple of my tanks. Replacing HOBs with canisters filled with medias claiming to support denitrification bacteria (Hagen BioMax and - primarily - SeaChem Matrix). I've observed nitrate creep reductions anywhere from 20% to 50%.

The key, I think, is to also have massive mechanical filtration on the tank - up to and including Micron filters - to remove microscopic debris that would otherwise clog the pores that support denitrification bacteria and to be a fanatic about media maintenance. I clean my biomedia monthly (rinsed in tank water) and replace about 1/3 of it per month in any specific filter (only 1/3 in one filter at a time, two filters minimum on each tank, one filter being worked on every two weeks). The old media is removed, rinsed in the sink, and then boiled for reuse.

I also find that the Eheim Classic series of canisters appear to support this function, in these types of medias, a bit better than other filters.


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

I had to get to five posts to post pics, so sorry for an added post to the thread, the below was intended to be a component of the above post, so you will not understand unless you read the post directly above this one.

Each of the below pics represents a weeks worth of nitrate creep. They are taken from nitrate tests conducted the morning of water changes, before water changes have occurred.

Below is a pic of nitrates on my tanks as of October 3rd.









Then again last weekend:









In the Oscar tank (100 gallon) I have achieved basically zero nitrate creep using SeaChem deNitrate in a 7' tall slow flow (30gph) DIY filter constructed of 4" PVC. This tank also has a C-360 filled with ReefresH2O bio-spheres, an Eheim 2217 filled with SeaChem Matrix, a Magnum HOT 250 filled with Matrix, a 20 Micron filter (serving as a prefilter to the denitrate tower), and an Eheim 2215 setup for mechanical only. The denitrate tower is not anaerobic, water exiting this filter contains 7ppm O2, which is only 2 ppm lower than the main tank.

In the Kissing Fish tank (55 gallon) I replaced a Fluval 404 with an Eheim Classic 2217 filled with SeaChem Matrix.

In the Angelfish tank (55 gallons), I replaced a Penguin 350 with a Marineland C-260 (two trays filled with SeaChem Matrix) and I filled the media container of a Magnum 350 with SeaChem Matrix.

In the livebearer tank (30 gallon) I replaced a pair of Penguin HOBs with an Eheim Classic 2213.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

^ In the above were there any waer changes between nitrte testing?


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## kmuda (Nov 27, 2009)

Yes. I perform water changes each week on each tank. Even on the Oscar tank, which has not been registering nitrates for three consecutive weeks, I continue to perform water changes.

Each week, on each of the above tanks, I basically reset nitrates to zero (via back to back to back water changes, a specific process that ensures 100% of the water has been replaced), so the photo's are an accurate indication of a weeks worth of nitrate creep in each tank, although the water changes in the Oscar tank have been scaled back to about 50% since it started registering zero nitrates.

My goal in nitrate reduction has never been to reduce water changes, but to reduce the amount of nitrates accumulating in between water changes. While a goal, I never expected to get any of the tanks to zero nitrate creep.

There is a lot of history summed up in the above photos but not included in the thread. I have about 4 years worth of nitrate testing documenting various nitrate reduction attempts and methods.


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## rich_t (Nov 26, 2009)

cjacob316 said:


> mardi gras beads will hold bacteria and you can get those for free while hammered (especially if you are a girl or have one with you)


 :dancing:

Priceless.


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