# Golden julis



## John arnold (Jul 23, 2018)

Hello

Had 4 julis delivered well packaged, one is twice size of others ! and is the king of the tank, one died after 3 days, probs killed, the other 2 small ones are like residing in little crevices vertical, and one of which not really eating, any ideas whst to do as im new to african cichlids
I included photo somyou can see there is plenty of rocks, the shells are fir shell dwellers when i get them


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## awanderingmoose (Aug 11, 2016)

You will need to remove either the perpetrator or the victims to a separate tank until they're more evenly matched.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Females of the dwarf Julies (ornatus, transcriptus, Kombe/Gombe) are typically 1/2 the size of the males or less (size, not length)

They pair up (male/female) in a basically monogamous relationship ... although occasionally they will practice polyandry (single female, multiple males) ... so you might see a triple (1f, 2m)

Once they pair up, any which are rejected may be killed off. The tip off to an individual being rejected is going up to, and hanging in, the top corners of the tank, hiding behind a heater, etc.

As far as them not eating, don't bet on it.

They may not come out and eat when you throw food in the tank, but you aren't seeing what's happening when the lights are out ... or when you aren't looking.

They will eat lots of the aufwuchs, growing in the tank - see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periphyton

The photo below, which I just took, contains a pair of Julies ... and about 50 of their fry:










I usually toss just a pinch of flake food into their tank daily ... but could probably get by with just letting them feed on the brown diatoms growing in the tank ... and what lives in/on it.


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## John arnold (Jul 23, 2018)

Ok ill have to setuo a spare tank

Thanks


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## John arnold (Jul 23, 2018)

awanderingmoose said:


> You will need to remove either the perpetrator or the victims to a separate tank until they're more evenly matched.


Ok cheers fir the reply


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## John arnold (Jul 23, 2018)

awanderingmoose said:


> You will need to remove either the perpetrator or the victims to a separate tank until they're more evenly matched.


Hello again
I have a small tank ready to take the beast out, hiw the **** do i catch him, he darts into the rock like lightening, amyone got any tips, i have kevt a net by one of the many openings fir him to get used to but cant see ho2im gonna get him


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You remove all the rocks and half the water.


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## John arnold (Jul 23, 2018)

God thats extreme, but i guess no other way, its like rescaping the tank aye,, well thanks man


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

DJRansome said:


> You remove all the rocks and half the water.


 :thumb:

They are incredibly fast little buggers ... :lol:

There's a reason for that torpedo-shaped body.

It's also a good reason to have an overly large net.


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## John arnold (Jul 23, 2018)

wryan said:


> Females of the dwarf Julies (ornatus, transcriptus, Kombe/Gombe) are typically 1/2 the size of the males or less (size, not length)
> 
> They pair up (male/female) in a basically monogamous relationship ... although occasionally they will practice polyandry (single female, multiple males) ... so you might see a triple (1f, 2m)
> 
> ...


Hello

I have enough of these my god, that fish killed the other 3, so i got 5 more juli, left the big one in quarantine tank, within a day it looked as though 2 had paired up, managed to get 1 of them amd the large back to lfs, now i had to empty tank and like how do i see which are the pairs they look the same, so took 2 put them in quarantine tank and watched whatvhsppened, wrong 2, by next day i took rejected one out of one and put in other tank and vise versa, still rejected and one looks like its on its last legs, so looks like not a pair any more, prob gonna die too, i give up i mean really what you supposed to do?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Your experience is unusual. Maybe choose another vendor and get juveniles so you have several months when they don't care who is a boy and who is a girl and just play. I start with six.

IME the fish rejected happen one at a time and I have a couple of days of seeing them lurking at the top...plenty of time to get them out. Whatever is left once peace returns is your pair.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

DJRansome said:


> Your experience is unusual. Maybe choose another vendor and get juveniles so you have several months when they don't care who is a boy and who is a girl and just play. I start with six.
> 
> IME the fish rejected happen one at a time and I have a couple of days of seeing them lurking at the top...plenty of time to get them out. Whatever is left once peace returns is your pair.


2x


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## John arnold (Jul 23, 2018)

DJRansome said:


> Your experience is unusual. Maybe choose another vendor and get juveniles so you have several months when they don't care who is a boy and who is a girl and just play. I start with six.
> 
> IME the fish rejected happen one at a time and I have a couple of days of seeing them lurking at the top...plenty of time to get them out. Whatever is left once peace returns is your pair.


Sorry not bern online, so put 3 back in main tank, cant believe the one i left on its own is still alive as bit beat up bless him,
So one is having a go at another any time it sees it, and dominates the tank taking the big cave, now the other i have seen with it in big cave occasionally for a short time but then its chased out so maybe theses 2 may pair up eventually, i dunno its been really trying sorting these bleeders out, watch this space

Cheers


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## Samadhikash (Jun 16, 2015)

When I first got into Julies, I found the breeding notes here https://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/vie ... p?t=347649 and here https://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=422 helpful.

One thing that stands out in both is the idea that pair formation is encouraged or enhanced by a joint defense of breeding territory. Whether the two are working to kick out conspecifics or others in a community tank/introduced targets it seems to me the process is the same.

Second, pairing isn't necessarily immediate and pretty. This isn't a Disney romance. Instead you'll often get bickering, nasty attitude, and general conflict until a pair has bonded. And for sure, letting them choose who to bond with is less demanding than trying to work out an arranged marriage. Conflict between two Julies doesn't mean they won't eventually bond and spawn. And there is some suggestion they enjoy a kind of testing phase where they determine if a potential mate is up to the rigors of the romance.  Point is, don't separate too early or at the first sign of antagonism. Clearly you don't want incompatible fish to be locked in a death match and fish hiding in top corners or struggling to disappear behind a heater may be signs of a step too far, so monitor closely but give them a chance to be rambunctious.

I have found that two rock piles--one on each side of the tank--is helpful. Use a few rocks, flower pot shards, coconut hides, whatever gives them a place to hide. This helps to prevent rejected fish from trying to seek comfort in a rock pile claimed by a dominant fish. It also helps to net rejected fish. It gives them a place to dive for cover separate from the dominants and you can put in a tank divider, remove the rocks, and grab the fish while the pair is comfortably on the other side in their choosen space. This takes some patience and close observation so you know who you want to net, but if you watch purposefully I have found you can tell six fish apart by their markings. The downside is that the pair may decide your temporary hiding place is better than the pile you intend for them. Just be flexible here. Whatever place they choose for themselves is the one most likely to make them happy and spawn--at least that's the way I look at it.

I have not tried starting with adults. But my transcriptus juveniles have been very consistent in working themselves down to three fish. I get a pair, and one fish that is allowed to stay in the opposite rock pile. The pair is not aggressive toward the third fish, share space during feeding, but otherwise shoo it to its own side of the tank. I've seen this three times now. But I keep my Julies in species only tanks. Not likely to work in your tank if you remove the second pile of rocks and replace them with shells.

Patience is key. It takes some effort. Be flexible and creative. Fish have different personalities even within species; so a sure-fire method is just a place to start, not a guarantee.  What works for the folks in the links above, or for me, or anyone else may not be the exact path your fish take. Be open to changing plans and enjoy the process. IME, it's worth it. Having a spawning pair and a couple generations of fry interacting makes for a really enjoyable tank. Beautiful fish with plenty of character and interest to reward your time.


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

Great post ... thanks for sharing it ... :thumb:


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## John arnold (Jul 23, 2018)

Samadhikash said:


> When I first got into Julies, I found the breeding notes here https://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/vie ... p?t=347649 and here https://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=422 helpful.
> 
> One thing that stands out in both is the idea that pair formation is encouraged or enhanced by a joint defense of breeding territory. Whether the two are working to kick out conspecifics or others in a community tank/introduced targets it seems to me the process is the same.
> 
> ...


Hey there

Thats a great piece of advice, thanks and yeah i worked out that it would be nice to have another pile if rocks for any rejected but as you see i git shellies on that side so in hindsight a bigger tank if i wanted the 2 species, it is intereting niw rather than stressful ! Ha as im down to 3, the 2 that are bonding are like testing each other exactly as you put it but are bonding so i will remove the third due to size of tsnk and take to my lfs, its quite amazing how effectively defensive the shellies are to the julis if they get to close, i think at last i msy be a little hooked on cichlids amd can see future larger tanks appearing, if i can find space, thanks all for the good advice, big learning curve

Cheers


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## Samadhikash (Jun 16, 2015)

What shell dweller did you add?


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## John arnold (Jul 23, 2018)

Samadhikash said:


> What shell dweller did you add?


Sorry didnt see this, i added neolampralogus similis, there are only 2 would it upset things if i add 2 more shellies, im going to try catch the rejected juli tomorrow as the other 2 although not paired up they kinda may i think, i guess i have to wait longer, but no point in keepint the one that is hanging about up the glass 2 thirds of the way up vertical, am i on the right track now? I think so


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## Samadhikash (Jun 16, 2015)

Is the Julie on the side of the tank being actively harassed? Or is it on the side because there is no other place for it since it's not allowed in the rock pile and the shellies chase it away? If the former, I'd remove. If the latter, I'd be tempted to leave it in the tank awhile to give the developing pair an "other" to shoo away. But being outcast to the wall of the tank is stressful and problematic long-term and that fish shouldn't be left indefinitely.

Also, Julie pairs don't necessarily swim together side by side all the time. The dominant fish (in the smaller Julies like ornatus and transcriptus the larger dominant fish is generally the male) will often kind of herd the female around where he wants her or chase her into the rock pile. It's not aggressive chasing and bullying as much as a play of dominance and submission. And, being secretive cave spawners, you will likely have no idea they have spawned until you see tiny fry on the rocks.

The shellies are territorial too and as you noticed will defend their space with determination. And this will be against the Julies as well as against other shellies they don't want in their space. You definitely don't want a second species of shellie. If you add more similis, you will need to ensure there are enough shells and space for multiple males to claim territory. This is often more space than folks expect from such a small fish. Too many males in too small a space without enough shells is a recipe for conflict. If you have reason to believe you have a male and female similis already, you'll end up with plenty of similis in short order.

Long-term, you'll have shellies increasing in number and needing more space and Julies doing the same--resulting in inevitable clashes. The breeders will be constantly pushing aging juveniles to the outer borders of the territory. Being limited by tank size, you will need to intervene and reduce the numbers of both. The combo of shellies and Julies is popular to try, and some folks are more successful than others even with similar set-ups. But tank size and set-up and the fish themselves make a difference.

Since you have the smaller/quarantine tank up and running, you have a bit of freedom to experiment and remove fish on-the-fly if things go sideways. Again, stay flexible and adaptable. Combining Tanganyikans isn't necessarily a set it and forget it proposition especially when you have active spawners of multiple species. Think territory, territory, territory. Everyone wants it; and without enough you get stress and conflict.


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## John arnold (Jul 23, 2018)

Samadhikash said:


> When I first got into Julies, I found the breeding notes here https://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/vie ... p?t=347649 and here https://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=422 helpful.
> 
> One thing that stands out in both is the idea that pair formation is encouraged or enhanced by a joint defense of breeding territory. Whether the two are working to kick out conspecifics or others in a community tank/introduced targets it seems to me the process is the same.
> 
> ...


Yeah i was going to leave it a bit longer, good idea, i think im getting the hang of it better now, i been thinking along lines of what you said and as the rejected juli does not look beat up i. Leaving a little longer, soon as he loses colour ill remove him, dont think i have enough room for more shellies now i think of it as the 2 there seem like they need about 8x8 inche territory and there not really much more for another, **** i need bigger tank
Thanks man


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## wryan (Dec 6, 2015)

John arnold said:


> Yeah i was going to leave it a bit longer, good idea, i think im getting the hang of it better now, i been thinking along lines of what you said and as the rejected juli does not look beat up i. Leaving a little longer, soon as he loses colour ill remove him, dont think i have enough room for more shellies now i think of it as the 2 there seem like they need about 8x8 inche territory and there not really much more for another, *darn i need bigger tank* ...


Think of it not as a problem, but rather an _opportunity_ ...


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## John arnold (Jul 23, 2018)

wryan said:


> John arnold said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah i was going to leave it a bit longer, good idea, i think im getting the hang of it better now, i been thinking along lines of what you said and as the rejected juli does not look beat up i. Leaving a little longer, soon as he loses colour ill remove him, dont think i have enough room for more shellies now i think of it as the 2 there seem like they need about 8x8 inche territory and there not really much more for another, *darn i need bigger tank* ...
> ...


Yeah man for sure hehe


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