# Ideal number of demasoni and yellow labs?



## cholile

I am considering 3 different tanks to use for demasoni and yellow labs.

What the ideal number of demasoni and yellow labs is for each tank?

1. 36 x 12Â½ footprint

2. 36 gallon corner tank by AGA (couldn't find the dimensions)

3. 54 gallon corner tank by AGA (I think 38" x 27" is the footprint. obviously narrows as head to the back of the tank)


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## Boomr99

For demasoni's, you either want a single one or at least 12 of them.
I would avoid the 36 gallon corner as the footprint is too small.

the 36" x 12" tank you could probably get away with 3 or 4 MAYBE 5 labs and a single demasoni. If you want the group of demasoni, I would hazard to say that this tank is too small too, but maybe just them and no labs.

The 54 corner gives you the best options. I would say you could do the group of demasoni's and 5 to 7 labs. Or a larger group of labs, say 8 or 10? and a single demasoni or none.

You should of coarse have lots of filtration and lots of hiding places / caves.


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## cholile

i thought the 36 gallon corner might be small, though I wasn't sure.

but whoa, I thought the overly conservative trend on this site was 36" length and many (most?) had both labs and demasoni. you're saying that's too small for even the standard minimum of 12 demasoni?

I want at least 12 demasoni and a number of yellow labs too. I thought with the 54 the only question was how many above 12 demasoni and how many labs.

Here's hoping you're suggestion is the most conservative of the many i hopefully receive 

proper filtration and hiding will, of course, be present


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## bccromer

Personally I would avoid the 36g corner and the 36" tank. I just wouldn't put a lab in a 36" tank myself. You could do a species only tank of demasoni in the 36" though. I have a 54g corner and thought about the lab/demasoni combo, but have decided to go with something else. If I would have done it though, I probably would have gone with 6 labs and 12 demasoni.


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## cholile

thanks for your input. you wouldn't, in general, put labs in a 36" tank? why not?


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## bccromer

I wouldn't, but I'm sure many people have. I just don't think it is ideal to put a 5" fish in a 36" tank. I am getting 2 36" tanks in the next few weeks and have avoided yellow labs because of this. Personally I am sticking with 4" and smaller fish for these tanks.


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## Boomr99

I agree with bccromer. The yellow labs do get on the big side for a 36" tank, at 5+" full grown. If you do them, keep the numbers low as I suggested and either 1 or no demasoni's.


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## bccromer

Yes you very well could put maybe 5 or 6 yellow labs in a 36" tank with nothing else in there. However me personally I like to have more fish even if they are smaller. That's why I stick with 4" and under for that size tank.


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## Boomr99

Just get a 48" long tank (55gal+) then youll have more options!


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## cholile

bccromer, it sounds like you're saying (maybe boomer too?) that 12 demasoni and 6 yellow labs would work well in a 54 corner, only that once the labs reach that +4" size you'd recommend moving them out.

is that right or am i simply trying to get you to say 12 demasoni and 6 yellow labs will work in this tank?


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## Boomr99

> The 54 corner gives you the best options. I would say you could do the group of demasoni's and 5 to 7 labs.





> I have a 54g corner and thought about the lab/demasoni combo, but have decided to go with something else. If I would have done it though, I probably would have gone with 6 labs and 12 demasoni.


Yup.. we're both saying that you could do 12 demasoni and 6 labs in the 54 gallon. That should be fine with lots of rockwork.


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## cholile

great, that's what I'll go for.

and of course a larger tank solves all problems . But given the other tanks i hope to have I can't really get a tank much longer and don't really want much larger a tank just to get the active blue & yellow combo I'm after.


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## Boomr99

Good luck with it. Post some pics when it's all set up and stocked!


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## cholile

i plan waaay in advance so it'll be a while but will do.


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## bccromer

You don't have to move the labs out of the 54g corner. 6 labs and 12 demasoni can stay in a 54g forever. We were saying not to put the labs in a 36 corner or 36" tank. They will work fine in a 54g corner even when full grown.


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## cholile

are you sure the footprint for the 54g corner is so much larger than the 36 gallon?

it's max length is 38" and given the shape it probably is well under 36" for almost the entire width of the tank. in fact, i wouldn't be shocked if the footprints were basically equal and the different came from the height. in that case, the rectangle gives the fish far more back and forth swim room, though the corner tank may give more space when defining territories relative to all four directions around them.


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## bccromer

When it comes to the labs the footprint isn't that big of a deal as much as the volume. Labs aren't aggressive and more than one male could be ok in a small area, however too small just isn't humane to keep them in. The footprint mainly comes into play when trying to keep more than one male of a species or several different species. Just think with a yellow lab in a 36" tank. The tank is only 7 times longer than the fish, and twice as wide. I wouldn't want to live where I can barely move. The 54g gives more room as it holds much more water, although the footprint may not be much larger.


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## cholile

I'm not sure I follow:



bccromer said:


> When it comes to the labs the footprint isn't that big of a deal as much as the volume.





bccromer said:


> too small just isn't humane to keep them in....Just think with a yellow lab in a 36" tank. The tank is only 7 times longer than the fish, and twice as wide.


aren't those two the complete opposite of one another? and why would volume mater? if you can manage to keep the water filtered and stable why would the fish care about volume?



bccromer said:


> The 54g gives more room as it holds much more water


i don't think, at least from everything i've read on this site, that's really true. for example, if I had a 100 gallon tank but it only had a really small floor space and was just really really tall the excess volume wouldn't make the fish any happier other than it will make it easier for me to keep the parameters stable and the water clean. fish want room to roam/live/hide, but once they have enough of that i don't think anything else matters


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## LittleFrog

Actually, I've kept 12 Demasoni and 5 Yellow Lab's in my 36" x 12" 40 gallon without any problems. There's quite a few people on this forum who have had success with this mix in this size tank.


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## bccromer

As I said many people have probably done it, but personally I wouldn't. The volume gives them more room to swim whether it be up and down, side to side, or backwards (not necessarily length). While a large footprint is always ideal, it isn't as big of a deal when it comes peaceful mbuna such as labs. The footprint is mainly beneficial when trying to keep more than one male together, and you need plenty of floor space for them to claim territories. Labs don't apply to this as much as they aren't as aggressive and don't establish territories as much. However, even though this is the case, I think they need more room to swim than 7 times their body length. Whether this be made up in extra height or width in the tank. Either would be more ideal than just a 36" long. But, many people have and will continue to do it. This is just my opinion though.


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## cholile

if they need more room to swim than 7 times their body length back and forth that's a fair amount. i can't think of anyone on this site who would say you cannot keep an avid swimmer like a venustus or c. moorii in a six foot long tank yet these nearly 10" fish won't have but 7 times their body length. foot long fish like the d. comps have even less than 7 times but are also fine there.

and i definitely cannot claim to be an expert, but just observing the yellow labs i've owned in my current 90G tank, they all swim 90% of the time side to side, so i don't think the up and down really helps them much.

soon enough we're going to have you owning the sweetest looking demasoni and yellow lab tank and it'll be 36" long


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## bccromer

hahahaha Who knows I could one day. There are just so many fish that I like that I can find a smaller one to put in that tank and save the labs for a larger tank. Many people do this combo all the time in that size tank, but I was just saying that I personally wouldn't. That doesn't make it wrong by any means. Opinions are like a**holes.......I think you know the rest. Basically my opinion holds as much water as the next person's, which is none. You are the one that knows what you want, and within reason should try them. When it comes to mbuna though, just always be ready to move them or change things incase something goes bad. Whether this be having a hospital or quarantine tank, or knowing somewhere that will buy them off of you. I doubt there is anybody who has kept mbuna that at one point hasn't had to get rid of a fish or 2 due to compatablitiy issues. It's just part of it.


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## LittleFrog

There are a number of very experienced people keeping Demasoni and Yellow Lab's in 36" tanks. Joea for instance: Here are some of his posts about his 36" tank.



> I have about 20 in mine. Ps. demasoni aren't large, they're a dwarf mbuna and dominant males shouldn't get much more than 4 inches. They also aren't overly territorial and don't get fiercely protective of their area. L. caeruleus shouldn't really get any larger than 5 inches.





> I've had that setup for almost three years. I've had a couple of jumpers and one male that I found belly up about a year ago, I'm not sure why. The rest have been fine. They breed regularly and I rearrange the rock work anytime I want to remove a holding female.


And regarding the opinion that Yellow Lab's require a 4 ft tank:


> A 6 inch L. caeruleus is an overfed L. caeruleus. Wink
> 
> They simply aren't territorial enough to need a four foot tank, neither are Ps. demasoni for that matter. They keep to themselves, rarely battle over territory and are usually quite content and thrive in a 36" tank. In some cases, you'll get one dominant male who finds himself a cave and keeps it. He won't fight for it with any deadly force but he'll certainly make it known that it's his.


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## cholile

thanks. i don't know where you're quoting from and i don't know how wide or tall the tank was (or whether that matters) but do you know if he was saying in a 36" tank you could have 20 demasoni AND yellow labs (i guess at least 10?). Because I would love to put in a 54 corner tank 20+ demasoni and approximately 1 yellow lab for every 2 demasoni.

also, i know nothing about breeding and, at least for now, still don't care much about it. do i have to remove holding females? what happens if i just leave them in the tank?


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## bccromer

In a typical 36" tank which would be a 30g, there is no way you could have 20 demasoni and some yellow labs. In that tank I would go with 12 demasoni and a trio of yellow labs. For a 54g corner, I could see it feasible to have 20 demasoni, but probably only 3-6 labs. No more than that though.

As far as holding females, you can leave them in the main tank as long as they aren't getting beat up and picked on. They don't eat so get very weak and are easy targets. They will just spit the fry in the tank then the fry will most likely by eaten. You may have a few that make it though.


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## LittleFrog

Those were quoted from two different threads. In the first, he was referring to a Demasoni only tank. In the second, Demasoni and Yellow Lab's. You would want to do 12 Demasoni and 4 or 5 Yellow Lab's. That's what I had, and it worked very, very well. In fact, the only reason I moved them was because a friend gave me a 75 gallon tank, otherwise they'd still be in there.


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## cholile

very helpful guys.

so it sounds like there's somewhat of a consensus that a 36" tank can have a max of about 12 demasoni and 6 yellow labs, while for the 54 corner if I want to try and have a 2:1 demasoni to yellow lab ratio it'd be maybe something like 16 and 8 or 18 and 9.


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## bccromer

If you are going to keep 6 yellow labs in a 36" tank then that should be all you have in there. 12 demasoni and 3 yellow labs in a 36" is max that I would do. Maybe 15 demasoni, but certainly not 6 yellow labs.


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## cholile

got it. i think yellow labs (those not overfed) are a bit smaller than you describe so i guess that's why i'm a little more comfortable with having them in greater numbers. if for some reason they reached 5"+ and it got cramped i'd just move them to a larger tank or sell them.


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## LittleFrog

I kept 12 Demasoni and 6 Yellow Lab's in my 36" 40 gallon for well over a year without any trouble. Yellow Lab's should not get over 5" if you aren't over feeding them.


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## bccromer

I understand they won't get over 5", but full grown that is too many fish. 12 demasoni and 6 labs is about 66" of fish. That is way too much for a standard 36" tank which is 30g.


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## LittleFrog

Height doesn't matter for Mbuna. 36" x 121/2 inches is plenty. Like I said, I and many others on this forum, have kept this combination with great success.


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## cholile

I obviously don't know the right amount and that's why I asked the question, but I don't see why inches to gallons matters. I know people like to use 1" per gallon but I'm not even sure it's a useful general rule. It certainly is not set in stone. Different fish have different requirements.

What I'm trying to say is that if it is long enough for the fish to have the space they need, then whether it is 17" tall or 17000" tall (and the corresponding impact on the number of gallons in the tank) really shouldn't matter. If the space is not going to be used, then who cares? You just have to appreciate the increased difficulty in maintaining stable parameters with fewer gallons and the increased filtration requirements.


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## LittleFrog

You're exactly right cholile. The inches to gallons rule doesn't work. It's just not accurate. If you went with the 1 inch per gallon rule, you could technically keep an oscar in a 12 gallon tank, and we all know that's not possible. The height really doesn't matter. If you have great filtration and keep up on water changes, there is no reason why you can't keep 12 Demasoni and 5-6 Yellow Lab's in a 36" tank. Like I said, I've done it with great success, and all of my fish were adult size, and I'm hardly the only one to have success with this combination in this size tank.


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## teqvet

You could have 12" of height, if you had a 4 ft length, you could still fit just as many mbuna in. Acei are one of the only mbuna I have read about that swim at the top, so if you looked at those, then sure height comes in to play, otherwise uou can have a very shallow tank that is 30g, and have the same footprint of a 60g - you'd essentially be able to keep as many fish in there because as has been stated a few times, the footprint is what matters that most.


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## bmills

I certainly understand the interest in Demasoni and Lab tanks as they are beautiful together.

But as I have a 35g myself I thought long and hard about this mix.

I ended up with 6 (2M 4F) Yellow Labs and 6 (2M 4F) Mainganos. Similar effect due to the striking blue and black of the Mainganos - albeit horizontal rather than vertical striping - but less fear about getting a hyper-feral level of aggression especially in a tank where overall stock levels really are to be carefully considered.

I can report that after 6 months all is wonderful. One of my male Mainganos has become tank boss and is very deep black and blue, with the other male and the females a gorgeous lighter (though still vivid) rich blue colour.

The yellow and blue effect - and the character of these fish - is definitely there. The fish observe a pecking order and their usual territorial behaviour, especially when spawning or holding, but with no-one being over-agressed.

So much so that I had initially wanted my second tank to be dedicated to Demasoni but I have now gone off on a tangent and am setting up for a 10-strong Cy. Afra "Cobue" colony.

Anyway long winded way to tell you to please consider Mainganos as a great smaller-tank alternative to Demasoni.


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