# selling hrbrids



## 6stang9 (Oct 26, 2007)

I wish every one would call this guy that is selling pundamilia crosses on aquabid and tell him why he should not sell hybrids. He was arguing with me about it and also said that he was crossing ahli's and red empresses to make purple ahli's. To him it's all about the money. He could care less about the hobby. If enough people call him and rag him enough he might stop. Any thoughts?


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## 6stang9 (Oct 26, 2007)

Well the guy just called me back and we had a good conversation. At least I got him thinking.


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## mbargas (Apr 19, 2009)

6stang9 said:


> If enough people call him and rag him enough he might stop. Any thoughts?


Is it really our business to tell him what to do with his fish? You don't have to buy his hybrids.


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## SidGuppy (Sep 9, 2002)

[ANTI HYBRID MODE] no, it doesn't work that way

because the first buyer knows what he gets. but he'll breed them for the heck of it
but the second or third buyer doesn't know, or simply doesn't care and dumps his surplus in the LFS where ignorance is bliss and money is god

the next thing you know the whole genepool is polluted and the more serious hobbyists simply can't get real species anymore anywhere

then what usually happens is that the locals where the fish originates nuke/pollute/make war on/burn/strafe/clear of fish that particular habitat and then there one more for the books;
one more score for **** sapiens on his hellbent killing spree godmode destruction course to rid the planet off diversity
*
hydrids: just say NO*

don't make em, don't breed en, don't buy em, don't sell em

if someone just wants to make money: off to wallstreet you go and stay the breeding mouth away from our beautiful hobby.[/ANTI HYBRID MODE]


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## mbargas (Apr 19, 2009)

SidGuppy said:


> [ANTI HYBRID MODE]
> the next thing you know the whole genepool is polluted *
> hydrids: just say NO*
> ANTI HYBRID MODE]




There are cases where hybridaization actually saved a species. The Florida Panther was an endangered species. Its population had become so small that there was significant inbreeding, and its genepool lacked enough diversity. They hybridized them with the american cougars (mountain lions) which gave their gene pool more diversity, and now they are thriving.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... nther.html

http://www.panthersociety.org/faq.html#_Why_is_the


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Yes, that was a last ditch effort by biologists though. And the fact the florida panther is a subspecies of the mountain lion, both are _Puma concolor_. While in scientific circles this is still a hybrid, it's not as bad as crossing two differant genus as if often done with cichlids. World of differance.


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## mbargas (Apr 19, 2009)

dwarfpike said:


> And the fact the florida panther is a subspecies of the mountain lion, both are _Puma concolor_. ...While in scientific circles this is still a hybrid, it's not as bad as crossing two differant genus as if often done with cichlids.


There are some crazy hybrids out there like the Parrot cichlid. I don't understand why anyone would buy them. There's really no accounting for the personal taste. Flowerhorns are not as dysmorphic, but still over the top. The Red Texas in an interesting hybrid (Texas x Midas), looks a lot like a texas, but has color of a Midas.

Hybrids of closely related cichlids may actually occur naturally. For example, the different varieties of_ Pundamilia neyrerei_ are found in different regions of the Mwanza Gulf. What barriers are there to prevent their populations from overlapping in the wild?


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Not hybriding in nature is actually used to determine if you are dealing with differant species or differant color varations of the same species, it's one of the criteria actually. I can't speak for Lake Victorians as I don't understand advanced mouthbrooders well, but similiar fish that evolved together develop differant breeding signals. At one time Honduran Red Points and Convicts were considered the same species, as were firemouths and passiones. But becuase they don't cross in nature, scientists have concluded they are differant species even though they have the same fin counts, ect.


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## dogofwar (Apr 5, 2004)

Is he selling them as hybrids? Then fine. Don't buy them.

If he's selling them as "pure" when they're not, then that's a problem.

He can be no more responsible for what people do with his fish...or people who buy from people who he sells fish...than a vendor of "pure" fish who passes F5 fish as wild or F1.



6stang9 said:


> I wish every one would call this guy that is selling pundamilia crosses on aquabid and tell him why he should not sell hybrids. He was arguing with me about it and also said that he was crossing ahli's and red empresses to make purple ahli's. To him it's all about the money. He could care less about the hobby. If enough people call him and rag him enough he might stop. Any thoughts?


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## mbargas (Apr 19, 2009)

dwarfpike said:


> Not hybriding in nature is actually used to determine if you are dealing with differant species or differant color varations of the same species, it's one of the criteria actually. I can't speak for Lake Victorians as I don't understand advanced mouthbrooders well, but similiar fish that evolved together develop differant breeding signals. At one time Honduran Red Points and Convicts were considered the same species, as were firemouths and passiones. But becuase they don't cross in nature, scientists have concluded they are differant species even though they have the same fin counts, ect.


Genus, species, and subspecies are somewaht arbitrary creations of taxonomists. When more information is discovered, they frequently reclassify them. Although they attempt to establish strict criteria there are always exception to the rules.

A good example is the wolf-dog hybrid, which can occur in nature. They are classified as two distinct species, but they are closely related. One could make a case for reclassifying them as two subspecies of the same species.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canid_hybrid

here's actually a better example from the article

[edit] Coyote-wolf hybrid
Main article: Coywolf

The red wolf is considered by some to be a coyote/wolf hybridCoywolves (Coyote/Wolf) have occurred in captivity and in the wild where the choice of same-species mates has been limited. Coyote/Red Wolf hybrids have been found. Some consider that the American Red Wolf is not a true species because of DNA analysis that supports the hypothesis that the Red Wolf is a Gray Wolf/Coyote hybrid[2]. This is sometimes used as an argument against the conservation of the Red Wolf.


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

Interbreeding between subspecies is well known and well documented, it's the barrier between full species status that scientists look for.


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## lam man48 (Jan 14, 2007)

its immposible to stop hybrids. people do it for money or just because they dont know how harmful it can be but other casses are good like poler bears are mixing with grizzly bears because the ice is melting and they have to keep their spicious going


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## bulldogg7 (Mar 3, 2003)

guess


> Tfowler508 has no feedback yet


 says it all


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## xalow (May 10, 2007)

If I may echo the spirit of *mbargas*'s first post, with all the people that visit this website I don't think it is prudent to ask for everyone to call one person or to put someone's phone number here without their permission paricularly given the contentious nature of hybrids within the hobby.


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## 6stang9 (Oct 26, 2007)

He put his number on aquabid


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## Fromthefishroom (Jun 3, 2009)

What's sad is a plain nyererei is better looking. Crossing them would ruin their color I would think.


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## StructureGuy (Jul 27, 2002)

xalow said:


> If I may echo the spirit of *mbargas*'s first post, with all the people that visit this website I don't think it is prudent to ask for everyone to call one person or to put someone's phone number here without their permission paricularly given the contentious nature of hybrids within the hobby.


I agree. The phone number has been edited out of the post.
Kevin


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## mbargas (Apr 19, 2009)

Fromthefishroom said:


> What's sad is a plain nyererei is better looking


Were you trying to post a picture? It didn't show up.

No such thing as a "plain" nyererei. They're all brightly colored. Some have more red than others. I could see them being line-bred to bring out more of the red coloration.

It seems to me that coloration of nyerereis is more stable than than the coloration of other Victorians. What I mean is that the bright, red, orange, and yellow is less subject to mood.
I've had other victorians such as flamebacks, ruby-greens, and all reds, whose coloration would come and go very quickly as their mood changed. They would get very brightly colored when excited, but they would lose all of their color when they were subdued. My Makobe Island nyerereis have a very intense coloration when excited, and they don't lose much of it when they simmer down.


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## Fromthefishroom (Jun 3, 2009)

By "plain" I mean a true nyererei. Whatever the location may be of it. I tried to post a pic of my Makobe male. All I was trying to say is that there is no need for hybrids when the true species look as good as they do.


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## 6stang9 (Oct 26, 2007)

StructureGuy said:


> xalow said:
> 
> 
> > If I may echo the spirit of *mbargas*'s first post, with all the people that visit this website I don't think it is prudent to ask for everyone to call one person or to put someone's phone number here without their permission paricularly given the contentious nature of hybrids within the hobby.
> ...


After thinking about it I also agree. I was going to come home and edit it out myself today. Thanks Kevin. I was just so pissed about his give a **** attitude I didnt think it through. Sorry to everyone, I made a mistake. But, he did post it on Aquabid.


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## mbargas (Apr 19, 2009)

Fromthefishroom said:


> By "plain" I mean a true nyererei. Whatever the location may be of it. I tried to post a pic of my Makobe male. All I was trying to say is that there is no need for hybrids when the true species look as good as they do.


I agree with you. Your picture showed up when I went to another computer. Your nyererei looks great, much like mine. I'll try to post a picture of it if I can figure out how to do it.


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## dogofwar (Apr 5, 2004)

I guess what I struggle with line breeding one variant to be more red or more blue, straight bars, or whatever that suits our aesthetics.

The various Victorian haps are all really closely related. Different variants of a single "species" are really, really, really closely genetically. Is a super-red (line bred) nyeri any more (genetically) authentic to what's in the wild than a cross between two different variants? Let's not kid ourselves...


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## mbargas (Apr 19, 2009)

dogofwar said:


> Is a super-red (line bred) nyeri any more (genetically) authentic to what's in the wild than a cross between two different variants? Let's not kid ourselves...


Has anyone crossed different variants of them? It probably happens occasionally in the lake. They are all so similar that I think it would be hard to recognize a cross as a distinct "hybrid" if you want to call it that.


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## dogofwar (Apr 5, 2004)

I'd bet that a lot of the Vics on the market are mixed variants. It's not possible to tell other than to have a provenance of fish back to a given collection location...

Differences between "species" or variants aren't always apparent to the naked eye. For example, there was a Nature article that described speciation in Victorian haps based on perceptions of light. The fish look the same; they live at different depths in the lake. And they're different species.

"Has anyone crossed different variants of them? It probably happens occasionally in the lake. They are all so similar that I think it would be hard to recognize a cross as a distinct "hybrid" if you want to call it that."


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Some breeders (and purchasers) know the fish are hybrids, know the threat to the hobby of hybrids, and care more about profit (breeder) or aesthetics (purchaser) than the hobby. I agree, nothing we can do about those.

But there still are breeders and purchasers who maybe are newbies or from the goldfish or discus or even horticulture world where a hybrid is something to strive for. We still have a chance to educate them. And a chance they will understand and agree. I say keep trying!


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## dogofwar (Apr 5, 2004)

This is no different than people who sell mis-labeled wild-type fish (babies of a common fish sold as babies of a rarer fish)... or tank raised fish as "wild"... or F? fish as F1. Truth in labeling is key.

There is something that we can do about it: post negative reviews of shady sellers ... and positive reviews of quality ones.

A hybrid CAN be something to strive for in keeping cichlids. Flowerhorns, OB Peacocks, Firefish, etc. were all INTENTIONALLY developed to not be like wild fish. Just so they're labeled correctly, then they don't pose any more risk than any other fish in the hobby. Trying to dissuade people that they shouldn't like the fish that they like won't succeed...

Matt



DJRansome said:


> Some breeders (and purchasers) know the fish are hybrids, know the threat to the hobby of hybrids, and care more about profit (breeder) or aesthetics (purchaser) than the hobby. I agree, nothing we can do about those.
> 
> But there still are breeders and purchasers who maybe are newbies or from the goldfish or discus or even horticulture world where a hybrid is something to strive for. We still have a chance to educate them. And a chance they will understand and agree. I say keep trying!


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## mbargas (Apr 19, 2009)

dogofwar said:


> A hybrid CAN be something to strive for in keeping cichlids. Flowerhorns, OB Peacocks, Firefish, etc. were all INTENTIONALLY developed to not be like wild fish. Just so they're labeled correctly, then they don't pose any more risk than any other fish in the hobby. Trying to dissuade people that they shouldn't like the fish that they like won't succeed...
> 
> Matt


The average shopper at the local shop doesn't know and probably doesen't care about the geneolgy of the fish. Those common red and other varieties of swordtails have been in the hobby so long that they are not even thought of as hybrids anymore. I don't think you can demand that they label them as helleri x maculatus hybrid or whatever other species were involved in the mix.


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