# Ammonium



## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

Had an interesting conversation with a local cichlid breeder here in the UK, does this sound true..?

At present I have been having trouble with ammonia showing up in my water tests, anything from 0.5 to 1ppm 
I'm doing 50 percent water changes approx 2-3 times a week
My tank has been running about 8 weeks now with 5 labs in from the start - (From my experience so far I would never do a fish cycle again)

Anyway, I told the breeder this and he asked if I had any nitrite or nitrates which I said - Nitrite 0, Nitarates approx 10
He asked if I had tested the water from tap which I said yes 0 ammonia.

He then said after 8 weeks the tank should be cycled and it sounds like its Ammonium NH4 which is not harmful like NH3
He then told me to fill a glass with tap water and leave it on the kitchen top for 2 days and then test it. 
Wow it read 0.5ppm of ammonia from the API test kit.

I have also had a lab hold which he reckons would be impossible if I had bad ammonia in the tank

Does this sound plausible and is my tank actually cycled now..?

Just added a single female Damansoni which seems to be ok with the labs so far.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Although pH may change after 24 hours after the water leaves the tap the ammonia should not.

You may get a 0.25ppm ammonia reading from your tank due to the dechlorinator, but nothing higher than that.

Keep in mind every time you add fish you may again get toxins until more bacteria can grow to handle them. But a month after adding new fish you should be back to zero for ammonia and nitrite.


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

Also the few fry I have in a hatchery inside the tank, can I feed them on flake..?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Fry in a net inside the adult tank are at risk of adults eating them, even through the fine mesh. Put some substrate on the bottom if you have no separate fry tank.

I don't feed fry flake, but you can if it is small enough and nutritious enough for them.


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## cyclonecichlids (Sep 7, 2019)

Your tank might be cycled but I suspect you're overfeeding or feeding too much protein in the fish's diet. Cut off feeding for 2-3 days and test the water.


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

I could give it a try but only feed a small amount once a day. It's all gone in 30 secs normally. 
Results from the other night were strange. I'd done a water change 4 days previous. 
The results are below, the nitrate result puzzled me the most as surely I'd expect to be at about 10-20 after 4 days..

Ammonia about 1 
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

What percentage of protein should be in the pellet mix..?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

34% is good


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## cyclonecichlids (Sep 7, 2019)

DJRansome said:


> 34% is good


That should do it.

Pellets work better than flakes for water cleanliness, in my experience. Flake food creates tiny pieces that go all over the tank, that the fish can't see, that rot over time.


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

Could the ammonia be anything to do with my filter. The only thing that's in there is about 6 trays of sponges and a bag of this plastic media in a mesh bag that sits at the bottom.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

If your filter is dirty it could be contributing to the ammonia reading. But if we are talking about food and/or fish waste debris, it is odd that your nitrates are not higher as well.

And even with a reasonably dirty filter, my bacteria have always been able to process the ammonia.

The amount or quality of the media is not a factor.


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

Hey guys,

Decided to test my ph today as not done that in a while. 
The ph before has been constantly 7.4 for about 2 months now same as what comes out of the tap. 
Tonight's reading was between 8.4 and 8.8 (dark purple). 
The only thing different since I last tested has been I added 5 more fish and last night I took one of the sponge filters out and replaced with some JBL nitratx balls.

Reading 
Ph 8.4 ish 
Ammonia between 0.5 and 1
Nitrite 0 
Nitrates 5

Now as I have still not managed to solve the ammonia problem is the ph jumping from 7.4 to 8.4 now more dangerous as I read somewhere that it makes ammonia 10 times more toxic with higher ph levels..?


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

Did you ever try leaving your tap water sample out on the counter for 24 hours and then test the pH? If not, try it and post back the results.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Taking out the established sponge filter removed a large portion of beneficial bacteria. Can you put it back for a while?

Deeda has advised you on the pH issue.


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

I just wrapped it tissue. Would all the beneficial bacteria be dead now..?


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

Is a ph of 8.4 too high..?


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## Deeda (Oct 12, 2012)

shiftyfox, you have a few different questions and issues going on in this topic so it's a bit confusing to me.

Normally a pH of 8.4 isn't a problem but the reason I asked to let a sample rest for 24 hours is to see if there is a difference between freshly tested tap water and tap water that has rested for 24 hours is to see if the pH changes either by going up or down.

Your original question regarding ammonia levels kind of got lost. When you tested your tap water ammonia level immediately, you got a reading of 0ppm but after 48 hrs it was 0.05ppm? Seems odd to me. Did you use a clean glass container for the sample? Are you thoroughly rinsing the test tube and cap multiple times in tap water after you are finished?

Did you rinse the sponge filter out to clean it after you removed it from the aquarium? What do you mean you wrapped it in tissue?


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

I have put a glass of tap water on the kitchen top, will test the ph in 24

The tank has been running for about 8 weeks now, with fish in from the start. 
I'm kinda puzzled why I have ammonia readings still from tested tank water. 
I thought by now the nitrogen cycle would have kicked in to deal with this.

However the nitrite readings have been 0 for the past month or so.

I use test tubes from the api kit and I'm meticulous about rinsing out several times before doing any fresh tests in them.

I have not lost any fish from the beginning which I guess is a good thing.

Did a 50 percent water change last night and decided to clean the filter out by tipping water out of it and also checking no dead fry were in it causing ammonia problems. I also decided to take one of the filter sponges out and replace with some nitrate balls.

On testing earlier tests still showed 0.5ppm ammonia. 
And I noticed the ph had gone up by 1.

The sponge filter that I took out I wrapped in tissue and left in the cupboard. I presume it would be no point in putting back in now after a day because bacteria on it would be dead..???


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

The reason you have ammonia is that you removed a chunk of the beneficial bacteria. It sounds like it is dry (wrapped in tissue) so not worth putting it back.

Put back the sponges as well. Don't take anything out of your tank. as the bacteria grow on the surfaces.


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

So leave the sponge filter out now or should I stick it back in..?


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

Well a little happier this morning...

Just this minute tested the tank water and it's back to 7.4 which it has been from the start. 
The only thing I can put it down to is like Deeda said - maybe there was a slight bit of diluted solution left in the test tube from a previous test and that affected the ph result.
My new practice going forward is not only to rinse out several times but now to dry each tube and the cap with tissue.

May have also been what DJ said - removing one of the sponge filters and replacing with different media. 
But would that have put the ph up by 1 in 24 hours and the next 24 hours dropped by 1

This Cichlid malarkey starts making you think like columbo.

So to conclude today's results 
Ph 7.4
Ammonia between 0.5 and 1 ppm 
Nitrite 0 (has been for about a month now) 
Didn't test nitrate.

So to conclude - should I try and deal with the ammonia by doing daily water changes to get it as low as possible 
Or believe that the tank is cycled and the result is actually ammonium and just do weekly maintenance..?


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

You are using the API test kit just like the rest of us, so it is not ammonium...we all get ammonia=0 from that test kit. So you have more ammonia than you should. Ammonia is one thing, pH is another.

I believe you are having ammonia problems because first you removed the sponge filter, and then you removed one of filter sponges. Now you have to wait until beneficial bacteria regrow on the media in your tank. Do water changes to keep ammonia < 1ppm.

pH swings in the tank are also an issue, but not related to media. If you think that 8.4 was a false reading, then the pH solution is to just be sure not to repeat the test problem that caused the false reading.


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

Just to clarify I don't have a sponge filter. 
The only thing I did was to remove one of the sponges in my canister filter and replace with nitratex balls. 
But yes by doing that I might have lost beneficial bacteria. 
The only reason I did it as there's another 4 in the canister and the last 9 weeks wasn't dealing with ammonia so I decided to try something different media in there.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

This is what threw me off, but I understand now that you meant filter sponge?


> I took one of the sponge filters out


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

I did indeed.

Quick one for you DJ.
Typically how much nitrate would you expect to see in your tank, 2 days after a 50 percent water change

I've just carried out several tests but not sure if I've learnt anything from them, I really wanted to see higher nitrate readings from the tank water I guess.

1. Water straight from the tap 
Ph 7.4
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0

2. Water from the tap that's been standing for 2 days 
Ph 7.4
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5

3. Tank water that had a 50% water change 2 days ago 
Ph 7.4
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Typically I change 50% when nitrates are 20ppm (weekly) and so day one nitrates are 10ppm. Halfway through nitrates would be 15ppm.

What is odd about your tests is that ammonia and nitrate changed in your tap water without your fish (in the tank) adding any toxins.

Leaving it out for 24 hours is meant to see if there is a change in pH. Where did the toxins come from?

What kind of container did you use? I did notice once that a paper cup created ammonia in the water.


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

I left the water in a glass. Yeah it is a little strange.
I wonder then when I test future tank water I can deduct 0.25 from the result.

Spoke to a a local store yesterday and he said it sounds like the nitrogen cycle may have stalled somewhere along the way. 
He was puzzled how nitrites were 0 but very low readings of nitrates.


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

No you can't deduct 0.25. If your beneficial bacteria were working, they would process that 0.25 of ammonia.

Always think of the 100s of others of us who get zero. For ammonia, your dechlor may add 0.25 but you did not have dechlor in the water glass.

Regarding the tank, you should see nitrate in a week or two if things are working.

You are shaking the nitrate test according to directions, correct? If you don't shake you will get zero nitrates.


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## shiftyfox (Aug 2, 2019)

Yes, I add 10 drops of bottle one and shake the test tube for 5 secs. 
I then shake the nitrate bottle 2 for 30 secs, add 10 drops then shake the tube for about a minute.


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