# HELP! Please. Cichlid fighting problem.



## TobyMcToberson (Nov 3, 2008)

Hello,

I have a 20 gallon tank with 3 cichlids remaining in it. (I started with 4, but the first three ganged up on one, and I had to move him to a different tank. He is now in with my austrailan red claw crayfish.)

I believe that one is a convict cichlid. It has large vertical stripes, and a "square" jaw. Another one that is not quite as aggresive has a much rounder jaw and a smaller, more rounded tail but also has stripes. And the last one is a "solid" color (peach if that helps) but looks much like the convict. None of them are larger than 2 1/2" or three inches long.

They are beating the ever living tar out of each other. For a while I had a large tin foil barb in with them, and they all ganged up on him, but he was large and fast enough to stay out of trouble, until they finally managed to wear him down after about three months.

So, I took him back out, and quite honestly I didn't have enough tank for as large as he had become. So I brought him back to the pet store. I told the owner about my problem, and she basically said that was the nature of my "general african cichlids" that I had bought. they will fight until just one is left.

I had bought them out of the same tank at the pet store hoping that they would all get along. I also asked her about how she keeps so many in one tank, and they never seem to be 'beaten to within an inch of there life.' She said it was because she had such a large population in a smaller area with a good filter system.

So I went home to find my convict cichlid beaten to within an inch of his life, no tail left, and a fair amount of skin missing.

So, I put the aggressor in a breeding net, and the injured fish is now doing much better, but obviously I have some issues with my tank and the social order, and I cannot have the aggressor stay in a breeding net, so I went back to the pet store.

I again talked to the owner who referred me again to the "overpopulation" trick.

So I picked up 4 "jack demseys" (I hope I spelled that right) and another fish which she thought was a "red devil" but was in her cichlid tank, and she said it was doing well.

I took my fish home, set up another filter for extra bio-load, (twin 35 "gallon" filters for a 20 gallon tank) and dropped my new fish in. I also went out and got a dozen or so CPVC fittings, rocks, gutters, etc for hides, as I thought that may help also.

So I added the extra fish, and hides, let the J-Ds get use to the tank, then let the two cichlids back in, and then after a short time, added the aggresor also.

the one most aggresive cichlid chased EVERY SINGLE FISH in the tank to one corner and kept them there while he explored all of his new hides and the tank layout.

The JDs were to afraid to eat.

After I noticed this, I again set up my "sick tank" and pulled the cichlids out.

I have to say at this point I am ready to just bring the cichlids back, no refund or whatever. I am just fed up with them.

The JDs are now doing much better. So is the "red devil" or whatever he is...

Is there anyway for these guys to get along? Do I need even more fish? Or is it a lost cause? I don't want the fish to be injuring themselves/each other... unless I'm doing something wrong... but like I said, they were in the same tank when I bought them. I just don't know what to do at this point.

Also, the water peramiters are all "good."

ammonia zero, nitrites and nitrates zero or darn close, and ph of about 7.

Thank you for any help given/offered.

Toby.


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## chapman76 (Jun 30, 2004)

Returning them would be what I recommend. The mix of cichlids you have in a 20g tank even in the short term is a nightmare. I wouldn't know where to begin.


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## bulldogg7 (Mar 3, 2003)

They're not African, but just imagine fish named after convicts, boxers and Satan being togetther in a small tank...
A pair of convicts might do alright in that tank for a while, but they'll outgrow it. It's too small for 1 Jack Demsey or even a single red devil.
If you can find some rams or want to go African some shell dwellers would be cool.


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## BurgerKing (Jul 1, 2008)

It'd help alot to know the exact species. So posting pics would be a good idea.

Very few cichlids can be happy in a 20 gallon tank, most grow too big. The convict/red devil/JD are NOT african cichlids like the store owner said.

I wouldnt give up yet, the Library section on this forum has an excellent guide for stocking tanks. Its under the 'Quick reference', then cookie cutter. Click on 20g and it'll tell you the appropriate fish for your tank.


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## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

Oh lord. You're going to have to take all those fish back (by the way, they're all Central American, not African), and restart completely. A regular 20gal tank is, IMO, too small for even a pair of convicts once they get some size to them. They'll be okay temporarily, but the JD's and the devil absolutely have to go asap, unless you want to buy a couple new tanks that are about 75gal each.


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## Doane (Jun 19, 2007)

I hate to be a kill joy, but I would also NEVER go to that fish store EVER AGAIN. That tank is much too small for any of those fish. The "overstocking" "trick" is not a trick but rather a belief. It works only with African Cichlids, the idea behind it is that if you put a of female fish into a tank with just one or two males, the aggression will get spread out. This is something that does not work with south american fish. What happens in an African tank is that instead of having just one female to chase the male will loose interest and chase another.

In South American the fish Pair and are not harem breeders.

I am sorry to say, but NONE of the fish you have in there are suitable to be in that tank for even a short amount of time.

Also, I would post the dimensions of your 20g, do you have the 20H or 20L.


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## TobyMcToberson (Nov 3, 2008)

Oh noes.

I can take the fish back. that is not a problem. I was not aware.

All of the pet stores cichlids are in one large 55 gallon tank labeled "assorted African cichlids."

Obviously the fact that they are bright colors and followed hand motions are the reason my 4 year old wanted them, and I asked her if they would be ok.

If you will indulge a stupid question, though, why are the JD's to large for the tank? they are all about 2 1/2" or 3" long also, and seem very happy... and the "red devil" is only MAYBE an inch long.

I was always told a general rule of thumb is 1" of fish per gallon. in that tank I would have about 10" of fish or so... 3 JDs and 1 little guy...

I will return the cichlids tonight. Obviously I was miss informed.


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

TobyMcToberson said:


> If you will indulge a stupid question, though, why are the JD's to large for the tank? they are all about 2 1/2" or 3" long also, and seem very happy... and the "red devil" is only MAYBE an inch long.
> 
> I was always told a general rule of thumb is 1" of fish per gallon. in that tank I would have about 10" of fish or so... 3 JDs and 1 little guy...
> 
> I will return the cichlids tonight. Obviously I was miss informed.


A JD grows to about 8-10" Red Devil males to over 12", females 9-10".

The 1" general rule of thumb simply doesn't work with cichlids. A 12" fish wouldn't exactly do well in a 12 gallon aquarium, rather it would need at least a 75 gallon, due to the amount of waste produced....


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## TobyMcToberson (Nov 3, 2008)

Fogelhund said:


> A JD grows to about 8-10" Red Devil males to over 12", females 9-10".
> 
> The 1" general rule of thumb simply doesn't work with cichlids. A 12" fish wouldn't exactly do well in a 12 gallon aquarium, rather it would need at least a 75 gallon, due to the amount of waste produced....


Ah. Gotcha.

How long does it take for them to get that large? I have no problem getting a larger tank down the road. I was hoping to buy some acrylic and try the "do it yourself tank" that you have on this site for behind my entire couch.

If I started this weekend I would be done with it and a stand in probably a month or two. I don't know the growth rate though...

Plus the JD's seem to be pretty cool fish as well.

Can you keep them together? Or will they fight as well?

Before I go any further with the red devil I had better get a more accurate ID of the fish...

But thank you ALL for the FAST replies. I appreciate it very much. I'm sure the fish do as well.

Toby.


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## TobyMcToberson (Nov 3, 2008)

Oops!

I'm not certain if it matters much, but I was using the pet store "slang" when describing my fish. I just checked the picture IDs and they are decidedly not convicts. They look most like:

Metriaclima 
M. callainos M. zebra OB M. estherae 
M. lombardoi "Kenyi" M. pyrsonotos

Or maybe:

Pseudotropheus 
P. demasoni P. elongatus P. saulosi 
P. socolofi P. sp. (Acei) P. crabro

Not that it will probably matter much, as it sounds as if my tank is to small anyway. I will be returning the cichlids as they just seem to fight to much. I bought them out of the dreaded "assorted cichlid tank." I will not do that again.

anyways. thank for the help everyone!

Toby


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## Fogelhund (Dec 3, 2002)

A Central American cichlid should be able to reach full size within 12-18 months. In order to keep all of these fish, I would recommend at least 6 ft long. In some cases these fish will get along, sometimes they won't, it comes down to individual personalities of the fish.


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## BurgerKing (Jul 1, 2008)

A lot of people think that fish are just simple little creatures, there's a lot more to them than meets the eye. They all have specific needs and all have unique personalities. Its good to see you're able to make sacrifices, i hope everything works out.


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## wheatbackdigger (May 11, 2008)

Toby, sounds like you just jumped into fish keeping without doing any researching at all. Take the fish back and spend some time researching. It will save you time, money, headaches.


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## Doane (Jun 19, 2007)

What I would recommend is this, I think that if you can have the stand done in a month ONE JD MAY be okay.

But as other posters have said, you may want to consider what fish you want. Look at all of them when they become adults. I would tell you to start looking at fish you want and then read the species article. You may find that the fish that you think look fun may be too much work down the line and fish that you never would have thought about keeping you may find that they are alot of fun.

If you think you'll like the JD get rid of all but one of them. If he is small it MAY be okay for now. Start reading up on making a tank, decorating them, things like that.

Don't let yourself be put off by the initial cost of the project. You should also look on Craigslist to see if you can nab a good deal. I have gotten most my tanks off there on the cheap.


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## TobyMcToberson (Nov 3, 2008)

wheatbackdigger said:


> Toby, sounds like you just jumped into fish keeping without doing any researching at all. Take the fish back and spend some time researching. It will save you time, money, headaches.


Quite honestly, I was really expecting the people who where suppling me with my tanks, food, filters, and fish to know what they were talking about. I have been to every pet store in my area, and now I have had problems with EVERYONE of them.

No offense to you guys, but I don't know any of you from holes in the wall, and I tend to like to get my information from people I can talk to, and see they have experience in what I am trying to do. You can't always tell that from the internet.

I have two "chain" pet stores in my area that have sold me mislabled fish. That is how I got the tinfoil barb to begin with. It was labeled as some sort of tetra, and in my community tank. One of the other local pet stores is filthy, and seems to leave the dead fish in the tanks for days. The last one, where I most recently went to, seemed to have a better set up, and seemed knowledgable.

At this point I'm pretty fed up with this whole deal. I will probably return every fish except for the smallest one. I looked around on the site and I believe it to be a convict chiclid. I think female. (remember those? what I thought I started with?)


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## Nutty4Mbunas (Mar 27, 2008)

Sorry you are having such a hard time with your fish.
Experts here in the forum will answer your questions and have no monetary gain as the LFS that see you as a walking dollar bill and will sell you what you dont need.
Some of the chain stores have very inexperience clerks that will not let you leave the store without taking your money.  
Im sorry If I sound harsh.
Please do some researchng in the Library and not only will you learn but you will see some amazing pictures that the forum has to offer.
You also cannot mix the african lakes or the south american continents as these fish have all different water PH requirement and different aggressions.
Throw out that rule of 1 fish per gal. it does not apply to Mbunas (Lake Malawi) they love to be overstock and require lots of water changes. Again dont buy on impulse...been there done that!
if you are not willing to do the work I suggest you get some guppies or goldfish and we can all live happyly ever after :wink:


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## SinisterKisses (Feb 24, 2004)

Goldfish aren't the answer either, tank is way too small for them too


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## cichlidaholic (Dec 7, 2005)

I think I would go ahead and return all the fish, and find something appropriate for the tank space you have to offer right now. :thumb:

There are Tanganyikan shelldwellers that will work, as well as some of the SA dwarf cichlids. They have very interesting behaviour, and you should be quite happy with either of those choices.

While you're building the new tank, take a look around the forum and decide what you're interested in. It's easy to get off on the wrong track and jump in too quickly with stocking choices, but it makes the hobby alot more enjoyable when you do a bit of planning before stocking!


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## chapman76 (Jun 30, 2004)

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/reviews/lf ... USstate=GO

There are the reviews of LFS in Wisconsin on this site. You can look through them and determine which one might be one you want to try.

Like someone said, the only thing I have to gain is the personal satisfaction I get when I help someone go from being frustrated and ready to quit to having 5 tanks of their own and loving it. I truely want everyone to love this hobby as much as I do or much. I've been raising cichlids for about 17 years now and I think I get more enjoyment now than I did back then.

You can choose to believe whoever you want, but I'd ask the LFS something you know isn't true and see if they go along. That will tell you quickly if they're out to make a buck or just don't know what they're talking about. If they stop you, you know you have a good store.


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## Dewdrop (Nov 20, 2007)

Sorry you're having a tough time. Don't feel alone though. Alot of us started out buying fish that we didn't know what they were or really how to take care of them right. It's happened for years and as long as there are LFSs and people thinking fish are pretty and would make nice pets, it will continue to happen. The thing is, if you really want to keep fish, don't give up just because it didn't start out good. Truth be told, in most cases it usually doesn't start out well.

What I recommend is to decide how much time, effort, and money you want to put into it as a first step. One of the best things I did was go by what kind of water I had. I didn't want to have to adjust the water alot. I know I have hard water so I didn't want fish that liked soft water. You can take a sample of your water to a LFS and have them test it for you. Then do some research to find the kind of fish that suits your water (unless you don't mind adjusting your water). You can look through the profile sections here at the pictures of fish and their requirements for a start.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

well, you are making the right decision in bringing the fish back, id bitch and complain at them as well, they should have known better, the petland employees around my area even know better.

convicts are very easily sexed, females have a bright orange stomach, males dont.


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## TobyMcToberson (Nov 3, 2008)

The cichlids have all been returned to the pet store minus the convict cichlid. Which is apparently a female, as it does have a bright orange patch on the belly.

I breifly asked the owner about her Jack Dempseys and she did not know anything about them.

Do African cichlids mix? Besides the shelldwellers and blue rams? Not that I plan on getting any, I'm just curious.

I have a large community tank of 1 guppy, 3 "glo-fish," 4 tiger barbs, 1 platy, and a ghost shrimp in a 35 gallon tank. They are all happy.

I also have a 20 gallon tank with a Red claw crayfish, and the first cichlid that got beat up is in with him. So far they are fine, but I can't really take the cichlid back as I have had him to long, but he is recovering well in the other tank. If he does fully recover, I will probably just give him away to someone who wants him.

I'm not certain what to do with the Convict. It is only 1" long, (maybe 1 1/2" long) so should be ok in a 20 gallon for now. I sourced some Acrylic yesterday. I also have a friend that is a very good finish carpenter for the base and top. How big does a Convict get again? What other fish would I be able to keep with her in, say a 100 or 150 gallon tank? I hope it would be more than just 2 or 3 fish in there?

I have no interest in breeding them either, so perhaps I will stay will all female fish? will that keep the aggression down? Or are they just as territorial as the males?


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