# Sand Substrate and Egg Crate-Terrible Smell



## Ohio Cichlid Lover (Feb 27, 2012)

When I first set up my 55 gallon tank, I followed advice on the internet to put egg crate in my tank first then the sand because I am using rocks in my tank. Recently my tank became cloudy and the smell from the water was terrible. I have always done frequent water changes. I have always sifted the sand to eliminate dead spots. Today I removed all the sand and the egg crate. The sand in between the spaces in the egg crate was awful. Once I got all the sand out of the tank, I thoroughly washed it. The smell of the sand before I washed it was really bad. It was so bad I had to step away because it was choking me. Once clean, I put the sand back in my tank WITHOUT the egg crate. This is just my opinion but I believe the egg crate led to the problems I had because it hindered my ability to sift the dead spots correctly. Everything in my tank is fine now. I'm looking for opinions on the egg crate. Any opinions on the problem I had??

All opinions are appreciated!

Thanks......Van

I didn't check my water parameters before I fixed the problem. The only thing that was high from my last test was nitrates and they were only at 40.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

This has been kicked around a lot. Some swear by it, others like myself say it serves NO purpose, total myth about it strengthening tanks to support rocks. It's flimsy plastic on top of tempered glass. Think about it. As for pressure points, never heard of it blowing out a tank, but if someone wants to ride on that reason, then they'd have to tell me how they keep the grains of sand out from under the edges of the eggcrate. As for protecting against dropped rocks, well, be careful. I'd think you'd have to drop a pretty large rock from a good height to blow out a tank. And there's always the sand to buffer the blow. Not enough of a reason, at least to me, to put eggcrate in tanks. Bottom line, not needed and useless and ugly when exposed and traps detritus, as you've seen.

There, I've reopened the can of worms. :lol:


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## bbortko (Nov 20, 2011)

sounds plausible, especially if a large enough area is covered with eggcrate. I have never had this problem but I only have 2 8x8" squares for tie wrapping plants. I wouldn't use egg crate for rocks either, the weight off the rocks is nothing compared to the weight of the water. If the rocks topple they'll land on the substrate and the egg crate will never come into play.


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## SobrietyRocks707 (Feb 23, 2012)

prov356 said:


> There, I've reopened the can of worms. :lol:


Worms and Fish.... They sorta go together :dancing:

But yeah, I finally got to see what all this eggcrate stuff was. I was thinking foam... And thinking it would rot after time 

Anyway, I don't think I'll be using eggcrate. Certainly wont be aquascaping from the top either :lol:


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## AulonoKarl (Mar 9, 2012)

I take it by "sand" you mean play sand. I had play sand before and it was more trouble than it was worth. It gets stirred up easily, can do serious damage to impellers, and requires sifting though once a week to avoid getting gas build up and bad odors. I've been much happier with pool filter sand. I would switch if it were me. It's a zero maintenance substrate that will eliminate odors and possible damage to your filters.

No matter which substrate you use, the eggcrate serves very little purpose and it sounds like it can cause more problems than it can solve.


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## rp-photo (Sep 22, 2011)

well the idea behind egg create, really is only to spread the weight of the rocks over a large surface area vs, having pressure points on the bottom glass.. also helps protect glass if u come across a falling rock


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## Ohio Cichlid Lover (Feb 27, 2012)

Thanks for your opinions. Yes it is play sand. I think I will try the pool filter sand. I can't even explain the bad smell I experienced. Never again....lol One thing I would like to know, some say gravel holds some of the good bacteria, does sand substrate hold any of the good bacteria?

Thanks

Van


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## AulonoKarl (Mar 9, 2012)

Yes, the sand will "hold" the good bacteria, but it isn't something you should be overly concerned with. You should be concerned with holding the bacteria in your filter, since that is where a large amount of water is flowing through. You can have all the good bacteria you want in your substrate, but without housing it in your filter, you will have problems. A tank will survive just fine with no bacteria in the substrate, so long as there is enough biological filtration in your filter.


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## Jayse (Feb 15, 2012)

I will actually be setting up my first cichlid tank today (finally!) and will be using some big pieces of holey rock. I've been told by a cichlid hobbyist to use the eggcrate to protect against falling rock because the cichlids will move the substrate around, sometimes creating bare spots, exposing glass and also causing rocks to fall. I already have the eggcrate ready to go, but am using Carib Sea cichlid substrate that is black/ grey granules. Should I bother with the eggcrate or not?


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## GTZ (Apr 21, 2010)

The secret to guarding against rocks falling is to place them on the glass then add the sand, or if the sand is already in the tank, sweep sand away from where you're placing the rocks on the glass. Once placed, fill around the rock. 
As long as there's a solid base of rock on the glass upon which to stack, sifting or shifting sand won't be an issue. Make sure additional stacking is stable.


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## Mike_G (Nov 8, 2011)

bbortko said:


> If the rocks topple they'll land on the substrate and the egg crate will never come into play.


You can either hang your hope on that theory or use eggcrate. :wink:

One of the reasons I decided to go with larger-grained sand (~2mm) is to lessen the possibility of gas-pocketing and compacting.


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## Woodworm (Jan 3, 2009)

I've never used egg crate in any of my tanks for a couple reasons. The first reason was purely cosmetic since I saw them showing in other tanks and hated it. The other reason is I was afraid of dead spots in the sand especially if I use enough sand to keep it hidden. I was in one of the big box stores yesterday and found some that is not even half as thick as what I have seen in the past and I'm thinking of getting some to try for no other reason then to insure that there is no sharp points resting directly on the bottom when I set up my next tank.


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## 748johnd (Jun 30, 2007)

I would do just as prov356 suggested. Place the rocks directly on the glass and then add the sand. Egg crate looks ugly when exposed and to me it is a waste of money. I would never use it.


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## Mike_G (Nov 8, 2011)

Woodworm said:


> I've never used egg crate in any of my tanks for a couple reasons. The first reason was purely cosmetic since I saw them showing in other tanks and hated it. The other reason is I was afraid of dead spots in the sand especially if I use enough sand to keep it hidden. I was in one of the big box stores yesterday and found some that is not even half as thick as what I have seen in the past and I'm thinking of getting some to try for no other reason then to insure that there is no sharp points resting directly on the bottom when I set up my next tank.


Mine is like 1/4" thick


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## Woodworm (Jan 3, 2009)

Mike that sounds like the stuff I saw yesterday. I still don't believe that that it does much to help but there is only one way to test the effects of it and I'm not willing to sacrifice any of my tanks to prove one way or the other. I have been using a thin piece of plexiglass under my largest rocks or stacks of rocks just to keep any sharp point off the bottom just like I was talking about using the thinner egg crate just hoping it will be easier to work with.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> I'm not willing to sacrifice any of my tanks to prove one way or the other


There it is, the fear factor. That's what drives people to use it. I'd suggest you do a bit of research to justify the fear. Use Google or whatever you like to find every known occurrence of a tank blowout from rocks. Even count anecdotal if you like. Then bump that up against all the tanks that don't have eggcrate and haven't blown out. Is the fear justified? You can take a 'better safe than sorry' approach, but then you deal with the 'ugly' factor and the potential organic pockets. If you really need some peace of mind over this, then use the plexiglas like one poster suggested. But, if you don't silicone and seal the edges, you're kidding yourself because sand will get under there and create those pressure points that you're trying to avoid.


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## Mike_G (Nov 8, 2011)

prov356 said:


> There it is, the fear factor. That's what drives people to use it.


That's news to me- I thought I was just being prudent :wink:


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

His problem may have actually been with the sand. I was using play sand and got tired of it stirring up too easily and getting into the filter intakes, so I replaced it with PFS. I like the PFS so much better. The play sand had become like a thick heavy mud after about ten months and it was darker in color and very dense and hard to scoop out, having settled into a dense layer even though I thought I had been stirring it enough.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

Mike_G said:


> prov356 said:
> 
> 
> > There it is, the fear factor. That's what drives people to use it.
> ...


If there were no drawbacks to using it, fair enough. It's ok to take a position of 'just in case this helps I'll add it'. But, there are drawbacks. It's ugly when exposed and it can trap detritus. What the OP has experienced isn't something new. It's been one of my listed drawbacks to using eggcrate here on CF for years. It's also useless at relieving 'pressure points' unless you keep sand out from under it. And again, flimsy plastic is NOT going to add structural strength to tempered glass. So, I'll give you prudent, not fearful, but how about the rest?


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## Mike_G (Nov 8, 2011)

prov356 said:


> Mike_G said:
> 
> 
> > prov356 said:
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1. It's 1/4" thick- how much detritus would need to migrate through 2-2.5" of sand I'm using to cause a problem in a 1/4" deep pocket in a regularly maintained tank? I do a full break down on my tanks on about a yearly basis for a thorough cleaning anyway- it's a carryover from years of using UG filters (which I never had a problem with). 
To me, 'smelly' usually means neglected or improperly maintained.

2. No one is claiming that eggcrate adds "structural strength" to tempered glass- it doesn't. 
I said that it helps spread the load, which it does in accordance with the laws of physics.

3. There's no sand under my eggcrate- I just went and looked. :lol: 
Besides, eggcrate is styrene which is a relatively soft plastic which has a bit of "give" to it, unlike say... a rock. :wink:


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> 1. It's 1/4" thick- how much detritus would need to migrate through 2-2.5" of sand I'm using to cause a problem in a 1/4" deep pocket in a regularly maintained tank? I do a full break down on my tanks on about a yearly basis for a thorough cleaning anyway- it's a carryover from years of using UG filters (which I never had a problem with).
> To me, 'smelly' usually means neglected or improperly maintained.


Depends on the sand depth and the species. Many dig, as I'm sure you know and help the process of 'migrating'. I've found that certain cichlids can fill a sand bed with organics pretty quickly, like tropheus or 'l'. brevis. Tanks can be maintained same as others, but have an organics issue to deal with. Doesn't always mean neglect. Keep 'l' brevis in a tank for a year without touching the sand and you'll see what I mean. I've had other tanks with certain species where I didn't have to touch the sand at all, ever.

Some thoughts and questions about pressure points. I don't have answers to all of these questions, so just something to think about.

No one would lay a rock in a tank on a bare bottom on its pointed side, so I"m assuming we're talking about a grain of sand getting under the rock and creating a pressure point. How much pressure would it take to blow out the tank bottom? How much pressure is typically exerted by a rock and any rock(s) stacked on top of it? What would be the max possible pressure of a stack of rocks, realistically? How many people stack rocks more than a couple of layers high? So, would the pressure ever come close to being enough to blow out tempered glass? Rocks are somewhat buoyant, so consider that also.

I know there are tools made to blow out car windows, etc, but these are 'impact' tools, so not what we're dealing with.

If the rocks are laid in the tank before sand, and other rocks are stacked high enough to create this pressure, then how did the grain of sand work itself under this pressure? Rock shift? Maybe, but then isn't there then going to be more than a single grain of sand under that rock? Or maybe there's that one big grain of sand that the rock shifts over onto? Is a rock pile with that much weight (a few layers high) going to shift?

What about a single large rock, say 50# with some points on it? The entire 50# wouldn't sit on one point. The pressure would be much less on any single point. So, is 10, 20# or so enough to blow out the tank bottom?

Tempered glass is somewhat flexible. For a pressure point to blow out tempered glass, it needs to be applied at a point where the glass is unable, or least less able, to flex. So, the pressure point would need to be nearer the edge where the glass was not as able to flex. Most rocks are stacked more toward the middle.

I just think the odds of a tank blowout from a pressure point is incredibly unlikely. The fact that we're not hearing about it happening here at CF seems to confirm that. Or maybe everyone here is using eggcrate?


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

I do think that the risk of the weight of rocks in a tank full of water breaking the glass is mitigated by the water to a point of being a non concern. But the more likely damage scenario is probably the accidental drop of a large rock into a virtually empty tank, as might occur during a major cleaning. In that case, the egg crate could be an impact absorbing device.

Another possible benefit of egg crate would be for people who have upright positioned, or leaning rocks. The egg crate may, along with the substrate, help to keep the rocks from sliding around as easily, and shifting.


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## kenko (Jan 19, 2012)

For the heck of it, I jusI went to my garage and dropped a 1.6 lb ball-peen hammer a few times on to a sheet of tempered glass from waist high (I'm 6'2") and not even a scratch. Tim is absolutely spot on, and fear can be just as detrimental to the hobby as neglect. It's a similar concept to a bed of nails - the pressure points are dispersed across an area. I doubt that anyone is balancing all their rocks and substrate on a single, sharp point. I've tried both styrofoam and egg crates over the years, only to remove them and go back to basic sand. If anyone really has the concern about potentially dropping a stacked rock from a crazy height onto an empty bottom tank without water, then maybe keeping fish in a glass containment unit may not be for them. Common sense can be the key phrase here. Rather than the egg crate, what about just a 1/4" of fine sand at the bottom-most layer? Most fine sands will make their way down to the base layer after time anyway...and it will not stick out if mixed or exposed, it won't create little pockets of cr*p, etc...


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## Mike_G (Nov 8, 2011)

vann59 said:


> Another possible benefit of egg crate would be for people who have upright positioned, or leaning rocks. The egg crate may, along with the substrate, help to keep the rocks from sliding around as easily, and shifting.


That's the main reason I'm using it, and it does help. I have most of my rocks standing on end and leaning on each other rather than being stacked and they would be unstable at the very least without having the edges of the eggcrate to sort of "catch" on the bottoms of the rocks.

After re-reading my original post, it did seem like I was fearmongering a bit- that was not my intention. I simply meant to point out the safety aspect FWIW


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## lavarock (Feb 17, 2011)

My tank is just recently up and running. I painted my egg crate black to try to match the sand. They have not dug enough yet to get to it for me to know if it will be that noticeable. Just throwing out an idea for you.


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## Mike_G (Nov 8, 2011)

lavarock said:


> My tank is just recently up and running. I painted my egg crate black to try to match the sand. They have not dug enough yet to get to it for me to know if it will be that noticeable. Just throwing out an idea for you.


They sell black eggcrate at the plastic supply house where I bought mine, but it was about $3 more than the white and I'm using light colored gravel anyway. They also have chrome eggcrate if you want to go for the bling :lol:


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

Mike_G said:


> They also have chrome eggcrate if you want to go for the bling :lol:


That would be perfect for using with nickel plated bb's as a substrate.

:lol:


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

prov356 said:


> This has been kicked around a lot. Some swear by it, others like myself say it serves NO purpose, total myth about it strengthening tanks to support rocks. It's flimsy plastic on top of tempered glass. Think about it. As for pressure points, never heard of it blowing out a tank, but if someone wants to ride on that reason, then they'd have to tell me how they keep the grains of sand out from under the edges of the eggcrate. As for protecting against dropped rocks, well, be careful. I'd think you'd have to drop a pretty large rock from a good height to blow out a tank. And there's always the sand to buffer the blow. Not enough of a reason, at least to me, to put eggcrate in tanks. Bottom line, not needed and useless and ugly when exposed and traps detritus, as you've seen.
> 
> There, I've reopened the can of worms. :lol:


You are not likely to have pressure points cause tank failure when using sand. Gravel, however, is a different story (so, now you have heard of it). Sand shouldn't need anything beneath it and anything falling on it should also not be an issue.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

BillD said:


> prov356 said:
> 
> 
> > This has been kicked around a lot. Some swear by it, others like myself say it serves NO purpose, total myth about it strengthening tanks to support rocks. It's flimsy plastic on top of tempered glass. Think about it. As for pressure points, never heard of it blowing out a tank, but if someone wants to ride on that reason, then they'd have to tell me how they keep the grains of sand out from under the edges of the eggcrate. As for protecting against dropped rocks, well, be careful. I'd think you'd have to drop a pretty large rock from a good height to blow out a tank. And there's always the sand to buffer the blow. Not enough of a reason, at least to me, to put eggcrate in tanks. Bottom line, not needed and useless and ugly when exposed and traps detritus, as you've seen.
> ...





> Gravel, however, is a different story (so, now you have heard of it).


You'll never get enough pressure to blow out a tank, gravel, sand, doesn't matter. Links to documented occurrences, please. Until then, never heard of it.


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## 748johnd (Jun 30, 2007)

I have used gravel for years and never had a problem. It's the first time I have ever heard of gravel blowing out a tank.


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## Jayse (Feb 15, 2012)

prov356 said:


> Links to documented occurrences, please. Until then, never heard of it.


 That's like saying if it isn't on the internet it never happend :lol: , and that everything on the internet is true because.... well... it's on the internet! :lol: :lol:

I take everything including some stuff I get from here with a grain of salt. Every circumstance with living creatures (fish) can vary, as well as somebodies aquarium. Just as with any other product that is manufactured, not all are created equal. Defects happen even in the glass manufacturing business, and by viewing some of the articles that are in the library, who's to say an aquarium somebody has purchased isn't one that was made at home by another person possibly without a tempered bottom.

I have a 40-50lb rock that is going in my next tank and has some very rough points that jut out. Removing this from the previous tank when breaking it down while it was wet was a task in itself, all the substrate had been moved away underneath it from the Mbunas. I would rather trust the few dollar piece of plastic that was underneath it than chance breaking the glass from it slipping and causing what water was left to spill out damaging other stuff. Call me scared of what might happen by dropping a rock in my aquarium... sure I'll take that tag gladly.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

> That's like saying if it isn't on the internet it never happend , and that everything on the internet is true because.... well... it's on the internet!


No, it's not. I"m not an idiot, thanks.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

prov356 said:


> BillD said:
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> > prov356 said:
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Contact Bunbarsch who posts under the CARES threads. He lost two tanks to pressure points.


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## 748johnd (Jun 30, 2007)

BillD, It must be a very rare occurrence. I have been keeping fish for over 60 years and never had or heard of gravel causing a tank blowout. I have had gravel with rocks, gravel with plants and also sand with rocks and plants without any problems. Reading your posts makes it sound like using gravel is risky. I have no hesitation using gravel with rocks, even heavy ones.


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## Mr.Dempsey (Jan 4, 2012)

Watch and be amazed.


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## prov356 (Sep 20, 2006)

748johnd said:


> BillD, It must be a very rare occurrence. I have been keeping fish for over 60 years and never had or heard of gravel causing a tank blowout. I have had gravel with rocks, gravel with plants and also sand with rocks and plants without any problems. Reading your posts makes it sound like using gravel is risky. I have no hesitation using gravel with rocks, even heavy ones.


That's it exactly. The threat is always WAY overblown. Misleads newcomers to the hobby. I've seen way too many new setup threads from new keepers listing eggcrate as part of their setup because they've been led to believe there's a strong risk of tank failure if they don't use it.


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