# Can Someone Sex this Bolivian Ram?



## Tabatha (Mar 4, 2008)

I've tried to wade through all 69 pages of this thread and I did get more than 1/2 way through, I wish this were a whole forum with separate threads!

In any case, here's one of my 4 rams, if you read my thread on behavior, this is the "defending" ram:



















Thoughts? I know you must all be bored of this game but... pretty please?[/img]

Ah, here's the post I tried to submit to the Bolivian club. Sorry!


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## ElPorcoRoso (Feb 22, 2008)

Any way you could get a closer image of its vent?

Its hard to get pictures of their sides because when I approach my tank with a camera they all stare forward, so I have to use my hands or something to distract them!


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## illy-d (Nov 6, 2005)

colour, shape and fins look more female... where as from what I can make of the vent it looks more male... How old is this fish?


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## Tabatha (Mar 4, 2008)

I can blow up the picture later today as it's in a raw file at home. I don't know the age of the fish, I've only had them for over a week. If I had to guess, I'd say 6 months at the youngest.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

I absolutely agrea on Illy-d,...body shape does resemble a female and vent looks like a male.


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## Cthulhu (Mar 4, 2008)

My BR has the fins and such of a male with a more female looking vent. I guess the thing to do would be to wait and see how he/she develops .


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## Tabatha (Mar 4, 2008)

I *_think_* this might be a female as another ram in the tank backs into her territory and wiggles his tail end. The enticing male's vent is barely visible at all.


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## gage (Feb 7, 2007)

my guess is a non-dominant male.


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## Tabatha (Mar 4, 2008)

I took some video last night, I apologize in advance for its poor quality. Turn off the volume, all you hear is crunching and crackling. 

#1 is the Bolivian that backs into #2's territory and vent is barely visible. My uneducated guess, from what the forum has said and what I've read is that #1 is a male, #2 & #3 are females?

Ram #1: 




Ram #2: 




Ram #3:


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

2 is definitely a female! The other two is hard to say on this vid. Fish number 3 is quit stressed and does display a lot of black dots. Probably he or she is sub dominant and underneath the picking order.


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## Tabatha (Mar 4, 2008)

Dutch Dude said:


> 2 is definitely a female! The other two is hard to say on this vid. Fish number 3 is quit stressed and does display a lot of black dots. Probably he or she is sub dominant and underneath the picking order.


Yeah, sorry about the bad video, it's an oldish camera and I'm no pro.

I was thinking of moving the 2 less dominant Bolivians to another tank to see what would happen between #1 & #2.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

I gave the pic a second closer look and I do expect this fish to be a female. Time will tel but I'm quit sure abouth it.


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## Tabatha (Mar 4, 2008)

I believe the Bolivian in the photo above is a dominant female, ovipositor appeared and was much larger, more round than anyone else in the tank.

I moved them to another tank along with a large watersprite we fondly call "Medusa" because it quickly takes over the tank. After the couple had the day to settle in, I snuck up to watch their behavior, they're still skittish with the move.

Lo and behold there were tiny gleaming eyes darting around under Medusa! In the other tank we removed them from lives a trio of honey gourami so I'm not 100% sure who's fry these are. They are verging on microscopic, bbs seems too big for them so I gave the a protein-based powdered flake which they swam after.

It'll be interested to see how they develop, if they survive.

Have a cigar!

Tabatha

Edit: BTW, I managed to net a male Endler with one of the Bolivians and now have a new method of sexing them... Yup, the Endler chases the female, tries to sneak up behind her and breed. Goof ball!


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

I expect the fry to be of the honey gourami becouse Bolivian fry do feed on bbs. Good luck and do you keep us posted?


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## Tabatha (Mar 4, 2008)

It took about a month to pair up but my Bolivians started spawning yesterday afternoon. After pushing an apple snail off her rock, we decided to get out the video camera and tripod.

Video 1: 



2 minutes, the parent fend off a spixi snail and platinum angelfish threatening the safety of their future fry.

Video 2: 



11 seconds, a close up of the spawning rock and eggs

Thanks for looking!

Tabatha


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

nice vids and thanks for sharing! Keep in mind that this is their first spawn and chances of a successful spawn is small. It can take some time before they learn what to do but once they spawned they will spawn again. In most cases every 2 to 4 weeks.

Notice the male and female have shifts on fanning the eggs. They first cover the eggs in sand and on the last day before hatching they take the sand off. after 2 day's you can see small black dots in the eggs,...those are the eyes of the developing embryo. Eggs should turn yellow to orange if they are fertile. Infertile eggs start to fungus and parents pic those eggs out.

Lots of fun and do you keep us posted?


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## D-007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Congratulations *Tabatha* and thank you for sharing the video clips. :thumb:

I look forward to future updates too.

Regards,
D


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## Tabatha (Mar 4, 2008)

Thanks Dutch Dude & D-007!

The wigglers started popping up early this morning, Mom & Dad picked them off the spawning rock, swirled them around in their mouths then spit them into a shallow dug out area at the base of the rock. At the moment, they're taking turns digging another, much bigger hole just to the left of their current home. There aren't very many, perhaps 10 - 15, I don't expect them them to make it but it sure is exciting to see them get this far!

Tabatha


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Oooh they do surprisingly fine for the first spawn! I bet they move the wigglers to the second pit that probably will be deeper. The wigglers will be fine for the first couple of day's but when they become free swimming they need some special foods like bbs or Hikari First Bites.


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## Tabatha (Mar 4, 2008)

They're in their second home already but not the big hole they're still working on, this is another shallow hole. I have some bbs which I'll get started tomorrow. I expect they'll be free swimming by Monday. We'll have to get those first bites too!

Thanks!

Tabatha


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Good to hear they still do fine! This is rare and amazing for their first spawn! First bites is a good addition and some even raise the fish completely on it. I prefer bbs as main food and use first bites as addition. Good luck and do you keep us posted?


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## Tabatha (Mar 4, 2008)

They're excavating their 4th hole but have only used 2 so far. The wigglers are really active -- do they ever rest? At first glance it looking like a vibrating mass then one will pop up and out of the hole, one of the parents will rescue it and pop it back in with the siblings. The should become free swimming tomorrow!


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## Tabatha (Mar 4, 2008)

Fry are now 4 days old, egg almost gone, got first meal today of Hikari first bites, bbs still cooking. Lots of tiny silver eyes and wiggly tails but still not free swimming. Mom and Dad have moved them into the big hole (#5) and are doing a GREAT job! :thumb:


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

So far so good :thumb: They have been quit active on digging pits. I think you will be surprised tomorrow morning when all the wigglers became free swimming. :wink:


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## Tabatha (Mar 4, 2008)

Came home from work today and our little ones are swimming!!! :fish:

When you see them in the nest, it doesn't look like many but we may have somewhere between 25 and 30 fry! Mom and Dad have done a fantastic job so far, my fingers are crossed that perhaps some of these can actually make it to adulthood!

At what point do the parents loose interest in their fry? Is there a time when I should consider removing them to prevent them from being eaten?

YIPEEE!

Tabatha


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Congrats but keep in mind that this is their first time!



> At what point do the parents loose interest in their fry? Is there a time when I should consider removing them to prevent them from being eaten?


Depends,...some parent have excellent brood care and protect the fry for a long time! If you realy want to raise the fry you could siphon the fry out and put them in a small tank on their own. This should be a cycled tank of course. The benefit of raising the fry with the parents is that they learn how to take care of their own fry later on. The protection of the parents also depends on the bond between the pair. If the bond is OK they both do a great job on protecting the fry. If the bond is not OK one of the parents can take over the brood care by his own or split the group of fry. This makes the chances smaller becouse he or she will be very busy and just can't keep up with protecting fry. An other possibility with bad parents is that they quarrel a lot and don't pay much atention to the fry,....that eventually will be eaten by the other tank inhabitants.

Considering this is their first spawn I would give the parents a chance to raise the fry themselve. If they don't succeed don't worry to much,....they probably spawn again 2 to 4 weeks after the last fry are gone. They will have plenty chances to raise fry successfully and you might consider to pull out a spawn in the future. Those spawns will be larger and mostly somewhere between the 80 and the 150 fry.

Have fun on watching them :thumb:


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## Tabatha (Mar 4, 2008)

BTW, I spent 4 months in Den Bosch, arrived January 1st, 199  Hung out with the college crowd. Beautiful, beautiful country, I loved it!


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## edburress (Jun 9, 2007)

Congrats on the successful spawn :thumb:

I enjoyed the videos and especially watching the female drive away the snail!


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

> BTW, I spent 4 months in Den Bosch, arrived January 1st, 199 Hung out with the college crowd. Beautiful, beautiful country, I loved it!


Good to hear you enjoyed your time in Holland and hopefully you have lots of good remembrances to it. I like the nature in your country and think Holland is crowded but I guess the grass is always greener in the backyard of the neighbours :wink:


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## Tabatha (Mar 4, 2008)

Well, I'm sorry to report that our little free swimmers disapeared last Saturday. I went out with a friend for the day and when I returned, they were all gone. 

They should be spawning again next weekend-ish. I have a 5.5g tank I could put the parents and fry in although I think it's a little small?


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

All my recent spawns are gone but I suspect a couple of fry from 6 weeks ago snack on their brothers and sisters :? If your lucky they can spawn every 2 weeks.


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## Tabatha (Mar 4, 2008)

I find my Bolivians are really, really healthy, especially in comparison to the Mikrogeophagus ramirezi I have in another tank. This is my 3rd group of M. ramirezi, lost my 1st and 2nd. In this 3rd group I started with 5 individuals, 2 have since died **after** coming out of quarantien, I've dipped the remaining rams because of what appears to be itch; 2 look much better but one doesn't look like he's going to make it. This will be my last attempt with this species.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Hmmm,...Bolivians are hardy fish and tolerate much more as Rams!!! Did you bought the fish from the same lfs? I think you get time after time very bad qualety fish!!! What is the origin of the fish? (Czech republic?) Can it be Bloat in stead of Ich?


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Sorry,...I didn't read it well enough,...the Rams died. Rams are delicate and often suffer of the same parasites that are responsible for bloat (flagellates). When you buy Rams you could premedicate them in the Q tank with Metronidazolle (Metro). This should give you much better chances. Keep in mind that Rams need the same conditions as Discus,....if not they become ill.


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## Tabatha (Mar 4, 2008)

The first batch was from a lfs but locally bred. The second batch was probably from asia and this third batch is from a breeder, purchased at a club auction.

My water PH is 7.5 and average GH is 8. I perform weekly water changes of 25%. Planted tank.

This past week I was dosing Seachem ParaGuard after seeing them scratch but unfortunately it didn't do much good. I had also turned off the filter after dosing for about 1/2 an hour and turned on the bubbler. Turned up the heat to 30C.

It's very, very discouraging when it keeps happening no matter what you do to try and help them. I hate seeing them suffer.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

Rams need 28C to 30C permanently and need soft acid water (somewhere in the line of.....PH=5.5...6.5 / GH=4...6 / KH= 1...3) and very clean water (weekly 50% wc for example). So,...the same conditions as discus.


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## Tabatha (Mar 4, 2008)

I'll have to get some peat for the filter and metronidazole. I worked at a veterinary hospital for 6+ years so I'm familiar with most common drugs. I hope I'm not too late!

BTW, you're the very first person who's told me they need the same conditions as Discus!

Thanks!


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

> you're the very first person who's told me they need the same conditions as Discus!


 Huh,...I'm surprised abouth that! Ramirezi do need the same conditions as discus and are definitely a more challenging specie. Flagellates is a big issue with most Rams. The specie is sensitive for flagellates and often they become ill when they were in poor conditions. Most lfs don't take proper care of them so they start getting sick. Then they get transferred to your tank and have to deal with an other stress situation what make the illness worse. So not strange they become ill. Most common symptoms are that the fish seem to be OK, suddenly stop feeding and spit out the food, become les active, start to hang in a corner and after a few day's a sudden death. Does this sound familiar?

Metro and dimetronidazole works best on flagellates. Best is to treat the entire (quarentine)tank and to soak their food in a mix of metro and some tankwater. This way the meds go straight into their intestines and will cure the fish from the inside what is more effective as from the outside. The benefit of dimetronidazole is that this stuff will be easier to solute in water as metro.

Next step is to keep the tank spotless clean, get the temp around 28C and provide them with soft water.

Some info http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/profiles/533.htm


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## dwarfpike (Jan 22, 2008)

*Dutchdude* is dead on about the heat of rams ... despite coming from a differant area as discus, the waters are almost identical. In fact they actually run warmer than discus water. Unfortunately my book that lists the collection data is at work atm, and I am home sick ... but I do remember the temp at the collection point in either the book or one of my many magazine articles was 92 F ... that is water temp, not air temp which was higher. Since ram's habitat is not in the rainforest, the water isn't shaded like say the rio ***** is. They come from savannah plains like areas, so the water temp gets much higher. I think 92 F = 33.3 C or there abouts. Obviously you don't need the heat quite that high ... but does give ya an idea. The down side is most plants don't do that well at the temps rams like.


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## Tabatha (Mar 4, 2008)

I tested the PH in the ram's tank, it's currently 7.2. I have a very large piece of mopani in that tank which is still leaching tannins, it appears it's also softening the water.

I set up a 5.5g with heater and sponge filter then syphoned water from the 25g and put it in the 5.5g, added Sulfathiazole, let it run for a bit then added the three remaining rams, even though 2 of the 3 seem much better.

I tried to get peat at my lfs but they were all out. Will try again this weekend.


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## Dutch Dude (Sep 14, 2006)

I don't think the Sulfathiazole is going to work for the flagellates. The meds I mentioned are the only one that can cure illnesses caused by flagellates. You could get metro at the veterinair and also some meds at the lfs contain metro. If I'm right the med Jungle Parasite is one of them.


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