# To replace Or Not?



## pastarican (Jun 12, 2003)

For the past umpteen months I have been battling a cyanobacteria plague in my 20g. Every time I thought I had it...it would return with an absolute vengeance. Last month I did an approximate 90% water change, took out all the deco (live plants and driftwood) stirred up the substrate good, cleaned the plants and driftwood off....everything was fine for a few days.

This week, another water change of Drastic Proportions, and still it is coming back. At this point, seeing as there are only four small fish in the tank (the main fish keep dying off,) I plan on doing another revamp. (I wouldn't dream of getting rid of the tank. :wink: ) However, should I replace the substrate completely? Currently it's a mix of PFS, black gravel and black sand, which really can't be seen too well anyway.

The only thing which seemed to work was Maracyn, but last year or so, it was no longer available...I figured starting from scratch again would be my best bet. I have a 29 which has not given me a lick of trouble in years...

Sorry for the mild ranting. I appreciate any and all advice. (hey, a sentence of almost all a's!)

-M-


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

Is the tank getting a lot of light, namely from a window?


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## 748johnd (Jun 30, 2007)

I just ordered Maracyn from Drs. Foster & Smith to get rid of a continuing cyanobacteria problem. That Fish Place has it and I'm sure other online dealers carry it. I saw some at one of our local fish stores on Monday. Maracyn is still available. I think erythromycin (Maracyn) is the only sure way to get rid of it. I've tried other methods, but it always comes back stronger than ever.


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## pastarican (Jun 12, 2003)

Not really. It gets more light from it's strip, a modest 24" t-8. (Can't do any upgrades on light systems unless it's cheap, DIY stuff.) Everything I've read and researched says lighting (ie, the blackout method) is a non-factor with cyano. Since all other avenues I've attempted have not fixed the problem, the only alternative left is a total do-over on the tank.


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## 748johnd (Jun 30, 2007)

I just ordered Maracyn on Monday from Drs. Foster & Smith to combat a cyanobacteria plague in my 90g. Maracyn is still available. That Fish Place has it and I'm sure other online dealers have it, too. I saw some at one of our local fish stores on Monday. In my opinion erythromycin (Maracyn) is the only really effective way to get rid of cyanobacteria. I have tried other methods, but it keeps coming back stronger than ever.


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## 748johnd (Jun 30, 2007)

Sorry. A double post. It looked like the first one didn't go through.


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## pastarican (Jun 12, 2003)

That's good to know. I haven't seen it for sale in a while. I was thinking they got rid of it.

-M-


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## trackhazard (Mar 21, 2007)

Cyanobacteria and phosphates go hand in hand. I would check phosphate levels in your water change water and your tank. If there is quite a bit more phosphate in your water change water than your main tank, I would assume that's where its coming from and the cyanobacteria is keeping levels low in your main tank. I would also limit how much frozen food you are feeding as lots of different types of frozen foods contain phosphates as well.

I would try maracyn and then follow up with phosphate control (GFO or a phosphate sponge) and see if that helps.

-Charlie


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## pastarican (Jun 12, 2003)

I've got Phosban running through the filter. Fortunately, I did manage to find some Maracyn. I guess the question would be why one tank has a cyano problem and the other tank, only seven feet away and essentially in the same room, does not. I had a powerhead going in addition to the filter. All I seemed to accomplish was the death of a dwarf gourami.

BTW, if the moderators think this thread needs to be moved to a more appropriate section, feel free to do so...


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

pastarican said:


> Not really. It gets more light from it's strip, a modest 24" t-8. (Can't do any upgrades on light systems unless it's cheap, DIY stuff.) Everything I've read and researched says lighting (ie, the blackout method) is a non-factor with cyano. Since all other avenues I've attempted have not fixed the problem, the only alternative left is a total do-over on the tank.


Cyanobacteria photosynthesize so I have to disagree with that, black out method with water changes should work.
Have you tried this method and found that it doesn't work?
I have never heard anyone say lighting is a non-factor in regards to your situation.

You could use an antibiotic but you can't target just one bacterium, it will also compromise your colonies of good bacteria.
Not really sure if phosphates or nitrates are contributors but I would test those as well.


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## pastarican (Jun 12, 2003)

The bit about phosphate had me thinking...When I fed my fish, I looked at what the ingredients were..to my surprise, several of them were phosphates in some form or another. While I'm judicious about feeding them (it was small tetras and a rotating door of other fish), I'm pretty sure some of it went uneaten.

I haven't tried the blackout. I've got live plants in there. Didn't want to risk losing them and still being left with the cyano...which with my luck is what would happen. :x :x

Anyway, I quit feeding them that food. (I know one day doesn't mean anything significant, but we all start at one day.) Still planning on reworking the tank, cleaning it out, etc.

-M-


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Try plant fertilizer. I have this issue as well (phosphates=0) and I'm told that if the plants even start to starve they leak plant material into the tank and the cyanobacteria thrive on this.

I have started adding nitrate and phosphate until I have a minimum of 10ppm nitrate and 1ppm phosphate (you want a 10:1 ratio of the two) and it has helped.

I have not gotten rid of it permanently as yet, because my plants are heavy feeders (vallisneria and swords among others) and as quick as I add it the plants suck it up. But it does seem to help and I think finding the balance is the answer.

Of course you should also investigate why your fish are dying off...that could be a problem as well.


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## pastarican (Jun 12, 2003)

I just chalked it up to age, disease, or bad genetics. The last fish that died was a dwarf gourami, which have a spotty reputation for survival as of late. The blue emperors and rummy nose, while old (4+years) are seemingly ok, but I know they're probably running out of steam as well.

Water tests didn't reveal anything that a water change could fix. But I did another major water change again, really stirred up the substrate, and replanted (after cleaning everything.) A couple of green patches reared their ugly heads, so I removed them and the gravel they were attached to. As I write this, there's a couple smaller patches trying to establish themselves. 
Maybe manual removal is what I should have done a long time ago.

What sort of fertilizer do you recommend? I just read about how cyano is a bit of a botanical vampire, and I noticed how it seems to grow around my sagittaria heaviest...or at least it used to before this last purge.

-M-


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Dec 14, 2009)

Hmmm, did some reading about Cyanobacteria after reading this post as i'm not familiar with it & seems that the overall consensus is to maintain water changes & replace your bulbs that are older then 6 months as the light spectrum emitted on older bulbs is the light spectrum Cyanobacteria likes to thrive on...

"check your light fixtures to be sure they are not over six months old for compact fluorescents, and 9 months old for other types of higher output. This alga prefers the spectrum of light in the lower levels and it might be worth a try to remove any actinic bulbs in your fixture for the time being."

Some have suggested a protein skimmer, though not sure personally how that helps in this regard...

Nitrates seem to play a role in this though if tests are showing up low, certain algae associated blooms like this can give false results on nitrate tests...

Some good substrate vacuuming before water changes

"If none of this is feasible to your setup or in spite of having tried these you still have an outbreak, as a last resort, you may try a dose of a commercial Red-Slime cure or Formalin. These will have side effects, but if your outbreak is sufficient to cause vast amounts of damage, such as black-band disease, being cruel to be kind may be your best option at that point."


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

OP's problem sounds just like mine. In my case the tank with the problem has new lights but that was also suggested to me so it's a good thing to try. My problem was not due to nitrates or phosphates because my nitrates are below 10ppm (due to the plants) and my phosphates are zero. So having ruled out bulbs and "poor water conditions" I looked to other solutions for the problem.

It was not until I posted on a plant forum that it was explained to me that the low nitrates are actually killing my plants and creating a cyanobacteria heaven. My situation is worse because I have the heavy feeders (vallisneria especially but also the sword) and they eat the nutrients SO fast you have trouble finding the balance. Eventually I am going to remove the vallisneria at least temporarily and add more medium growing plants, that is supposed to help as well.

If you test your nitrate and phosphate you will know for sure. My green patches also occur nearest the plants, makes sense. You will need to test if you want to try fertilizer cause you will need to try different dosages and test to see if you have achieved the 10:1 ratio.

Manual removal is good. Erythromycin will eradicate it, but it will be back in a few weeks unless you solve the problem.

I use Seachem Flourish Phosphorus and Seachem Flourish Nitrate available from the major aquarium vendors online and dose according to the bottle. Just raising the nitrate alone did not work, and this was verified by the plant forum guys...the plants need the phosphorus as well.

Once the dosing and testing has been done a couple times and the cyanobacteria stays away you should be able to just keep up the dosages and stop the testing. Once I get to that point there are dry fertilizers available that are less expensive than the bottled liquids and I will switch over.

I know there are fishkeepers that have success with plants and do not fertilize. I don't know how they do it, it has not worked for me, but this appears to be helping. I did notice a significant improvement in plant growth when the 10:1 ratio is achieved.


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## pastarican (Jun 12, 2003)

It appears I have to attack this on multiple fronts. First things first...replace the bulb! I'll look around for plant fertilzers. Kinda glad I don't have to replace my substrate. I was getting so frustrated I didn't know what to do.

As far as the plants go, they're low-maintainance, low-light...crypts, anubias, java fern, and dwarf saggitaria. There's also a red tiger lily that seems to be ailing right now. I did a lot of thinning out over the past couple weeks, so right now the tank looks somewhat sparse.

I never heard of using Formalin on cyano. Seems rather drastic...

-M-


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

pastarican said:


> dwarf saggitaria. There's also a red tiger lily that seems to be ailing right now


I would not have thought these were low maintenance easy plants.


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## pastarican (Jun 12, 2003)

They did surprisingly well, although the sag. was languishing for a bit, then it sorta took off. The lily would get so thick I would have to remove leaves every so often, and about once a year would sprout a new bulb. Dumb luck?

-M-


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## DJRansome (Oct 29, 2005)

Wish I had some...dumb luck that is. :thumb:


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