# Please tell me this is a male



## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Juvenile red fin borleyi....

It looked different from the larger ones in the tank and I know they were females. This ones anal and dorsal looked larger and more pointed. Please tell me I am right...it has been a nightmare finding males locally and I think I finally have one. He is about 1.5" or so.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

I've noticed a lot of breeders hang on to the females and sell only males, at least until they run out of tank space or flood the market. There have been times I've made the two hour drive to Detroit and bought 15 - 20 expensive cichlids and puzzled over figuring out which ones were which sex, only to figure out eventually that I had 100% males. And that others had the same problem when buying from a breeder who wanted to maintain a monopoly as long as possible.

Even if the breeder does not deliberately and consciously segregate the sexes, it can happen when the fish are sold in groups and sorted out of a tank simply by matching size. The first and larger batches would be mostly males and later on, the other buyers would be getting mostly females.

Even though I've raised borleyi, I would not be sure about sexing juveniles. If you know they are all siblings from the same spawning, size and finnage would be a clue but if different ages and parents, not so much. You can try venting, but the younger the fish, the less reliable it is.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

I am still worried about this fish not being a male. I think it probably is but just not sure. I am going to try to get a pic today with fins up. Any more help would be greatly appreciated.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

Try to get a clear photo of the vent area, or look on this site at venting and compare it to the photos there.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/gender.php

You should be able to click on the link above and check it out.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Mcdaphnia said:


> Try to get a clear photo of the vent area, or look on this site at venting and compare it to the photos there.
> 
> http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/gender.php
> 
> You should be able to click on the link above and check it out.


Yeah...I think I might have to pull it out of the tank and have a family member take the pic. I will try to do this later this evening.

Thanks for you help...please check back later to see the photo. Thanks


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Took several pics but the camera is not good enough to show anything. Tried it with/out flash and it makes no difference. I think the fish is too small. The underneath side is very white and the flash makes it too bright but without the flash it is too dark.

I can't tell with my naked eye because that area is just too small.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

I finally got some pics with fins up. What do you think? The female that I took back(she was holding) had fins that were a lot more rounded on the ends especially the anal fin. The fins on this fish seem to have more of a pronounced point. Your thoughts? I hope this is a male. If you click on the pic twice it will get a bit bigger so you can get a better look.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

Looks about 50 50 to me. But then so many are hormone trearted these days and look all look like young males there is no way even trying to guess at this age size and colouration.

All the best James

Ps adult females are worth about twice the price of males so its kind of win win. You can always trade her in in 6 months or so for a cheaper male. :wink:

3" to 4" is where you should be able to tell. Anything else is just a pointless guess.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

24Tropheus said:


> Looks about 50 50 to me. But then so many are hormone trearted these days and look all look like young males there is no way even trying to guess at this age size and colouration.
> 
> All the best James
> 
> ...


I traded a 4" female for $10. I only paid 6 when she was around 2.5". All I can find are these and some that are around this size but are already showing full male colors. I know those have been hormoned because no way should they be displaying full colors and long tipped fins at 1.25" - 1.5".


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I would recommend you widen your search. I hate this hormone stuff but it is not all the sellers fault. Many have little choice over where they get their stock from. At 2"-3" or so with male colouration and finnage these guys sell real well. Personally if looking to breed I would find stock that has not been treated. A big ask in many places I know.
Not much point in going on about the fish in LFSs these days. Rubbish is rather a kind term for them?
A 4" female for $10 sure sounds like a bargain to me but then trading it in they would look to sell for $30-$35 on the regular mark up from wholesaler or trader or hobbyist to retail price?
But then I want females to breed and not just buying to look good for a few weeks as most custommers are?

All the best James


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

24Tropheus said:


> I would recommend you widen your search. I hate this hormone stuff but it is not all the sellers fault. Many have little choice over where they get their stock from. At 2"-3" or so with male colouration and finnage these guys sell real well. Personally if looking to breed I would find stock that has not been treated. A big ask in many places I know.
> Not much point in going on about the fish in LFSs these days. Rubbish is rather a kind term for them?
> A 4" female for $10 sure sounds like a bargain to me but then trading it in they would look to sell for $30-$35 on the regular mark up from wholesaler or trader or hobbyist to retail price?
> But then I want females to breed and not just buying to look good for a few weeks as most custommers are?
> ...


24Tropheus is right. Many sellers have no choice at all. One that I know ordered plants, and only had available tanks that were designed only for plants. When the koi arrived, they had to be put in the plant tanks, which have slow circulation and almost no filtration. What they are sent does not resemble what they order, and often does not even match the invoice. You might get a bunch of hybrid African cichlids that are marked as firemouths. Or some gold barbs labeled as zebra danios. You can document what you need, show what has been selling well, and they will ignore that and send whatever they feel like sending.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

I keep hearing these stories about not being able to find females at the LFS's but guys here in my area about all I can find are females. Some that have been colored and hormoned as well. I have no interest in breeding at all. I barely have the tanks for the males. Maybe in the larger cities it is harder to get females but where I am located it is a different story.

This is what I think is happening. I could be wrong and often am  . I think the larger fish distributors such as quality and segrest farms are sending the females to areas of the country that have smaller populations. I live in western arkansas and the closest large city is tulsa more than two hours away. I think they send the males to the larger cities. Instead of killing off the females they sell them to LFS's in my part of the country and other more rural places because the chances of breeding and competing with them is much smaller. If I lived in tulsa I would be able to sell the fry once they grew large enough to the LFS's for food or trade.

I am having a **** of a time finding male peacocks, haps and other fish closely related. I can find mbuna male and female all day long.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

13razorbackfan said:


> ...
> This is what I think is happening. ... I think the larger fish distributors such as quality and segrest farms are sending the females to areas of the country that have smaller populations..... Instead of killing off the females they sell them to LFS's in my part of the country and other more rural places because the chances of breeding and competing with them is much smaller....


You're giving them ideas! If they haven't already thought of it.


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

:roll: ... hobbyists will pick the obvious males out of a tank and leave the juvenile colored fish. This is normal.

There is no conspiracy.... no company is going to try to sex juvenile fish. Adult males may be sold since they are colorful. Adult females are drab and when put in a store tank get beat up by the male, so nobody will want them.

Buy a bunch of juveniles, wait until they mature and see which are male and which are female. It is fun and rewarding. It is easier to get quality fish by raising them from juveniles.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

noki said:


> :roll: ... hobbyists will pick the obvious males out of a tank and leave the juvenile colored fish. This is normal.
> 
> There is no conspiracy.... no company is going to try to sex juvenile fish. Adult males may be sold since they are colorful. Adult females are drab and when put in a store tank get beat up by the male, so nobody will want them.
> 
> Buy a bunch of juveniles, wait until they mature and see which are male and which are female. It is fun and rewarding. It is easier to get quality fish by raising them from juveniles.


I wish I could I just don't have the room. I have a 30 long grow out tank but currently have 6 small fish in there already. I think I am just going to save my $$$$ and buy online 3" or so already sexed males.


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## vann59 (Jun 20, 2011)

13razorbackfan said:


> I keep hearing these stories about not being able to find females at the LFS's but guys here in my area about all I can find are females. Some that have been colored and hormoned as well. I have no interest in breeding at all. I barely have the tanks for the males. Maybe in the larger cities it is harder to get females but where I am located it is a different story.
> 
> This is what I think is happening. I could be wrong and often am  . I think the larger fish distributors such as quality and segrest farms are sending the females to areas of the country that have smaller populations. I live in western arkansas and the closest large city is tulsa more than two hours away. I think they send the males to the larger cities. Instead of killing off the females they sell them to LFS's in my part of the country and other more rural places because the chances of breeding and competing with them is much smaller. If I lived in tulsa I would be able to sell the fry once they grew large enough to the LFS's for food or trade.
> 
> I am having a #%$& of a time finding male peacocks, haps and other fish closely related. I can find mbuna male and female all day long.


Sounds like your only option is going to be to order online and have them ship overnight. Make it a large order so you don't take a beating as much on shipping.

Also, I put an ad in CL to see if others wanted to share an order. If you find others in your area that want to order cichlids, you can place one order and share the costs of shipping.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

vann59 said:


> 13razorbackfan said:
> 
> 
> > I keep hearing these stories about not being able to find females at the LFS's but guys here in my area about all I can find are females. Some that have been colored and hormoned as well. I have no interest in breeding at all. I barely have the tanks for the males. Maybe in the larger cities it is harder to get females but where I am located it is a different story.
> ...


That's a very good idea. I think I might try that. It will probably be after the holidays when I have some extra $$$.


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

noki said:


> :roll: ... hobbyists will pick the obvious males out of a tank and leave the juvenile colored fish. This is normal.
> 
> There is no conspiracy.... no company is going to try to sex juvenile fish. Adult males may be sold since they are colorful. Adult females are drab and when put in a store tank get beat up by the male, so nobody will want them.
> 
> Buy a bunch of juveniles, wait until they mature and see which are male and which are female. It is fun and rewarding. It is easier to get quality fish by raising them from juveniles.


 :thumb:


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## ecoli1973 (Sep 29, 2011)

sigh...some of us only get to have one tank in the house...for me it is a 8 foot 30 inch deep 300 gallon with fairly small top openings.

I joke that the only fish that is coming out of that tank once put in is a dead one...now I am not sure that it is a joke after all...

Love to buy a bunch of juvis but I can't get rid of the unwanted fish unless I drain my tank


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## noki (Jun 13, 2003)

ecoli1973 said:


> sigh...some of us only get to have one tank in the house...for me it is a 8 foot 30 inch deep 300 gallon with fairly small top openings.
> 
> I joke that the only fish that is coming out of that tank once put in is a dead one...now I am not sure that it is a joke after all...
> 
> Love to buy a bunch of juvis but I can't get rid of the unwanted fish unless I drain my tank


An 8 foot 300g is a good problem. 8)


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

I found a male!!!! I also found a male fryeri. I will post pics here in a bit. The male borleyi is about 3" and has nice long fins and is starting to really turn blue in the head and body and orange on the sides. I am so excited I can hardly contain myself.  :thumb:


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## Mcdaphnia (Dec 16, 2003)

13razorbackfan said:


> I found a male!!!! I also found a male fryeri. I will post pics here in a bit. The male borleyi is about 3" and has nice long fins and is starting to really turn blue in the head and body and orange on the sides. I am so excited I can hardly contain myself.  :thumb:


Congratulations! And a little prayer that your females don't all turn male now.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Mcdaphnia said:


> 13razorbackfan said:
> 
> 
> > I found a male!!!! I also found a male fryeri. I will post pics here in a bit. The male borleyi is about 3" and has nice long fins and is starting to really turn blue in the head and body and orange on the sides. I am so excited I can hardly contain myself.  :thumb:
> ...


Yes...fingers crossed indeed. They are staying in growout tank till I am sure. I have a 1" peacock still shiny grey with black stripes and no colors. It does however have long and pointed anal/dorsal fins so I am just hoping it has not started to color yet. I have found that most small male peacocks show a hint of color even at small sizes but I hope this is a male that is late in starting to show colors.


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Here is a link to the pics of the two males I found. I started another thread because I am so excited.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... highlight=


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## Tim54321 (Aug 30, 2011)

idk if u have the answer to ur question, but that fish is a female, i have the same 1 in my tank around the same size too with a fully coloured male =)


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## Tim54321 (Aug 30, 2011)

oh and it could also be a female C. "flavimanus lundu" cause they look vry similar


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## 13razorbackfan (Sep 28, 2011)

Tim54321 said:


> idk if u have the answer to ur question, but that fish is a female, i have the same 1 in my tank around the same size too with a fully coloured male =)


You think so? It is still awful small to be really showing colors. It is only 1.5 - 2".


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

13razorbackfan said:


> Tim54321 said:
> 
> 
> > idk if u have the answer to ur question, but that fish is a female, i have the same 1 in my tank around the same size too with a fully coloured male =)
> ...


Yep your right to be dubious if this species is showing male colours and finnage at 1.5"-2". While it is true some TB will show male colours early at 11/2"-2" for this species it is far more likely to be due to hormone treatment of the cichlid.

21/2" is the earliest I have seen none hormone treated ones get male characteristics and colour some may be 31/2" before this.

As said ealier many have seen that coloured up small fish sell well and they grow faster if hormone treated.

Prob is no real way of telling if they are male or female as all get male characteristics if hormone treated/fed.
There are also some doughts as to wheather quality fish are ever hormone treated/fed. They have a very bad rep in shops without high turnovers. They simply do not always last until sold. Many quality shops try and avoid selling them but they are very common and sell real fast.

It is illegal to treat/feed fish with hormones in many places but it is not illegal to sell ones treated/fed with hormones then imported anywhere I know of. 

All the best James


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