# Cystic gills?



## Sconniegirl (Jan 10, 2015)

I'm sad after my fish necropsy tonight, and I need your help. 65gal Tang tank 2 years running, pH8.8, Amm0, Nitrite0, Nitrate10, gH 18, kH 14, Temp 79F. 3 Calvus, 2 Compressips, 2 Julies, and now 8 Cyps down from 9 since the euthanasia and necropsy. Weekly 25-30% water changes. Well water conditioned to remove all the 'stuff' and water parameters created with Seachem Tang buffer, Cichlid salt, and MgSO4 as needed. Feeding Cobalt cichlid flakes and New Era red pellets. I've been watching this female Cyp for about 6 weeks. She was approximately 2 years old, having obtained her as a growing fry. No new fish additions for over a year. Her gills seemed 'fat' and she was slowly losing weight. She was swimming and interacting normally to the best of my knowledge. I also saw her eat, but evidently not very well. She was slowly getting thinner and gills getting fatter until I decided it was time to take action and euthanize and necropsy her. She was emaciated, and her gill structure was nearly absent replaced with fluid filled cystic structure. I could aspirate a small amount of clear watery fluid with a needle and syringe. I can't be sure, but being paranoid now, I think one of the Compressips may have a little bit of the fat gill thing going on. Can anyone give me an idea of what is going on, particularly if this seems to be infectious and if so, what to treat it with?

-Helen

http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/helen ... iew=recent


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## Austinite (Jul 27, 2013)

I've never seen that before, so sorry to hear about all your troubles.


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## Sconniegirl (Jan 10, 2015)

Well, here's a follow up on my previous post. I had a second fish, this time a Compressiceps, have the same problem. Fearing something infectious, I decided to cull this fish and send it for a necropsy. It came back as a thyroid tumor. Still seems unusual that I have 2 fish in short succession have this problem, but at least I have the best assurance possible this is not infectious. I will be trying to do more research. The following is from the pathology report.

Thyroid carcinoma with polycystic change and infiltration and
expansion of the branchial arch and body wall.
Mitotic index: 2

Comments:
Thyroid gland tumors are relatively common tumors in teleosts and
elasmobranchs. These tumors typically arise from the margins of the
brachial cavity and may extend into adjacent tissues. Primary
carcinomas typically exhibit well differentiated cells that can be
difficult to differentiate from benign adenomas and severe
hyperplasia. The diagnosis of carcinoma (malignant tumor) is dependent
on evidence of local invasiveness (as seen this case). This is not
considered to be a direct group health concern (i.e. these tumors are
not known to be directly related viral/infectious diseases or toxin
exposure in a captive environment). This, however, does not exclude
the possibility of spontaneous development of neoplasia in other
members of this collection.

Maybe this information can be of use for some other members.

-Helen


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## Loume (Dec 27, 2014)

Sconniegirl, really sorry to hear that. It does seem so odd to apparently happen now in 2 fish so recently.

This may not have any connection at all, and I don't know how it would have, if it is cancer, but the first thing I think of when I hear thyroid, is iodide/iodine. I noticed the buffers and salts you are using, and getting the water parameters up on the high end. It was just kind of a hunch, but I was specifically looking for anything that would indicate that high iodine could cause any of those sort of problems. This is relating to people, so I wouldn't know how it might relate to fish, but low iodine can cause goiter (swelling of the thyroid/parts of the thyroid gland, *often accompanied with fluid filled nodules/cysts*), and it's also believed that high levels of iodine can cause goiter.
*****
"Iodine and Goiter - Too Much of a Good Thing...

If your thyroid gland does not get the iodine it needs for making thyroid hormone, it may swell and cause the neck or larynx to swell as well. This swelling of the thyroid gland is known as goiter (or goitre). Interestingly, evidence suggests that also too much iodine can cause goiter in some cases. Especially in the US and many other Western countries were iodine deficiency is relatively rare, goiter cases may be due to excess iodine."

http://www.healwithfood.org/side-effects/iodine.php

Again, probably no connection, just thought maybe slim chance of something there. Is it possible that there are excessive amounts of iodine in the buffers and salts you are using? Use any iodized table salt? iodine in the fish foods? Hope you get it figured out, and all is well with the rest of your fish.


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## Sconniegirl (Jan 10, 2015)

Looking at the Seachem Cichlid Lake Salt I have been using, there is potassium iodide as an ingredient. The guaranteed analysis of iodine reads as a minimum. If I understand correctly, this means the maximum could be higher than the 0.02mg/g listed. In the Seachem Cichlid Trace, there is minimum 1mg/g of iodine (if my math is correct). This means the Trace has an iodine content 50 times higher than the Cichlid Lake salt. The lake salt I have been adding only at water changes (every 7-10 days), whereas the Trace is, according to directions, to be added once or twice a week.

Could this tank be deficient in iodine?
Any thoughts anyone?
-Helen


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## Loume (Dec 27, 2014)

Helen, when you say that you start with "well water conditioned to remove all the stuff". could you explain that for me? I mean are you stripping everything out as in reverse osmosis, if so, can I ask why? I'm not clear on whether you are using all these products, tang buffer, cichlid salts, epsom salts, AND cichlid trace? I really wonder why Seachem feels trace elements should be replenished every once or twice per week, especially in a system where replenishing water changes (and using the cichlid lake salt) are done on a regular basis, to me, it seems very excessive, and seems that could even build to possible dangerous amounts of some these trace minerals. Even in a more closed saltwater reef system, where certain coral inhabitants seem to require additional iodide to thrive, but where the water change frequency and amount changed is generally much more limited, I think there is controversy over supplementing iodide beyond, what is naturally contained in the sea salts?

Fish will uptake iodine both from the water and from food sources. Even if a food manufacturer doesn't add any, there should be trace amounts available in the food ingredients, especially from algaes/plankton and from the aquatic life that consume algaes/plankton, etc., as the various algaes and seaweeds would appear to uptake alot of iodine.

I use my alkaline, moderately hard well water "as is" no conditioning, no additional minerals, never have in 18 years. I'm not even sure if my water contains trace amounts of iodine, or how much. I kept a colony of tropheus for quite a number of years successfully, even though I have relatively high amounts of nitrates in my well water, at least until I began neglecting them, especially neglecting regular water changes. I don't knowingly recall ever having had the problem of thyroid goiters, tumors, or cancer, in any of my fish, nor had I previously heard of it before in anyone else's fish. Still, I'm sure it does happen, and you can find references that it (iodine deficiency) does sometimes happen, especially in certain kinds fishes, sometime Koi, goldfish, tetras etc.. If you would google fish gill tumors, you can come up with a couple or 3 sites sites describing heading them as gill tumors, but then actually caused by thyroid goiters/swollen thyroid caused by iodine deficiency. Some also say it can be "cured" with carefully measured additions of iodine to the water, or reccomend adding iodine. It's only my speculation that your fishes problems could stem from too much iodine and that more could even exacerbate the problem.

It's no doubt that it's essential that fish get trace amounts of iodine for proper function of the thyroid and to produce thyroid hormones, without enough, you can get hypothyroidism, goiters, swelling, nodules, etc. But while my hunch was that your problem IS iodine related, it's REALLY hard for me to imagine it being caused by deficiency of iodine, especially when you are using lake salt containing trace amounts, and replenishing it with regular water changes. Furthermore, if you are using the cichlid trace, and anywhere near Seachem's instructions for use (which actually seems highly questionable to me), my concern would be that that your fish could be getting too much, (and possibly other mineral/metals also) hence me heading my investigation in the direction of what too much iodine could do. What I found, at least pertaining to humans, is that too much iodine can cause the same type of swollen thyroid, goitering, nodules, and can first cause hyperthyroidism, but then eventually lead to the same hypothyroidism that deficient iodine would cause, even an autoimmune thyroiditis. It's also unclear how either a deficiency or an overabundance of iodine could lead to thyroid cancer, only my own speculation would lead me to think so.

It's clear that trace amounts of iodine are essential, what's not so clear is how much, especially when it comes to various kinds of fish. Even the National Research Council, who gives reccomendations for nutrition for animals, food animals, and companion animals, dogs/cats alike (and whom Seachem references) basically only says that some is essential; "The minimum iodine requirement of most fish species has not been established." The Merck Veterinary Manual also devotes VERY little to fish and is vague to their nutrition, diseases, neoplasia, etc., however I did find this there; that chronic exposure to nitrate has been associated with development of goiter in some species of elasmobranchs, and is exacerbated by low concentrations of iodide. ( elasmobranchs are cartilagenous species of fishes, i.e. sharks, rays, skates. Cichlids are not elasmobranchs.). As a side note, it's really interesting that sharks never get cancer.

I have to tell you, I'm not at all educated in these kind of matters, i just enjoy and take an interest in investigating/researching them, when I have time. So take it FWIW, only, but I hope it helps somehow. You'll have to be the one to determine whether there's a problem with an iodide deficiency, it's just me that is very suspicious that the opposite could also very well be the case.

In addition to the link I provided in the first post, showing how too much iodine could lead to much the same thyroid problems as would a deficiency, here are some more links that may help, again these pertain to people, not sure how they would pertain to fish, there is very little documentation of excesses in fish ;

"While I've just explained how too much iodine exposure can actually shut down thyroid hormone production, in other situations, an excess of iodine may actually cause an over-production of thyroid hormone and hyperthyroidism." "If a person has been exposed to relatively little iodine and then consumes a diet rich in iodine, the individual can develop an excess production of thyroid hormone (iodine-induced hyperthyroidism)" "Medically Reviewed by a Doctor on 12/1/2014"
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/ ... 395&page=2

"On the other side of the controversy is the recognition that excessive iodine can trigger autoimmune thyroid disease and hypothyroidism.
According to animal studies, high iodine intake can initiate and worsen infiltration of the thyroid by lymphocytes. Lymphocytes are white blood cells that accumulate due to chronic injury or irritation. In addition, large amounts of iodine block the thyroid's ability to make hormone." 
"The researchers concluded:
...although iodine supplementation should be implemented to prevent and treat iodine-deficiency disorders, supplementation should be maintained at a safe level. Levels that are more than adequate (median urinary iodine excretion, 200 to 299 µg per liter) or excessive (median urinary iodine excretion, >300 µg per liter) do not appear to be safe"
http://thyroid.about.com/od/newscontrov ... iodine.htm


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