# Ilangi Variation



## Guest (Mar 31, 2008)

My 23 1-2" "Ilangis" were received 5 months ago. Today they are much larger, but have inconsistent coloring. Here, I'm not refering to the change from dark to color depending on mood and background.

There are several "classes" of fish.
- Larger striped fish that are consistent in the body but have bluish tinted dorsal fins. These appear to have specific areas of the rocks they "defend". No red or yellow.
- Medium sized fish with classic Ilangi coloration.
- Smaller striped fish that stay dark.
- Fish that are usually hiding around the foam filter, but when come out for feeding have (albeit darker) Ilangi coloring.

I have observed only a little spawning-type behavior - usually after feeding - and rarely liplocked fighting involving the Ilangi-colored ones.

So, my questions are...
1) Do others observe the same thing?
2) Are all on my fish Ilangis?
3) Any comments about which is which sex, which is dominant etc.....?


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## geoff_tropheus (Feb 13, 2003)

If your fish have not grown past 2" in 5 months than it is more likely a diet issue. You have them in a 120 gallon aquarium with what looks like plenty of filtration so that does not appear to be any issue.

Water changes help with growth I believe. You need to be performing weekly 30-50% or Bi-weekly 50-75% water changes.

Feed twice a day a high quality pellet food, or spirulina based flake food.

Personally, I would feed New Life Spectrum Cichlid Formula - 1mm pellet, or Hikari Excel - Mini Pellet, or Dainichi Veggie FX or Deluxe - Baby Pellet twice a day. Make sure that if your switching to one of these foods, be sure to blend it in over a two week period with whatever food you are feeding now.

If you are already feeding one of these foods, then start feeding a larger quantity, but not more than they can consume in less than 2 minutes. You might even consider adding a higher protein food such as New Life Spectrum Growth Formula, or a higher protein Spirulina Based Flake food.

The higher protein will also help with growth rate.

The published growth rate of Tropheus is 1 cm per month. If they have not grown in the 5 months you've kept them there is a issue.

If you are already doing all this, and the fish are still not growing, I would go back to the Vendor and find out where the fish came from, and start talking to them.

Hope this helps..

Geoff


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## geoff_tropheus (Feb 13, 2003)

Also...I forgot...

The only true way to sex your Tropheus is at about 3.5" to examine the vent. If the vent is the same size or smaller than the anus, it is male. If the vent is larger or wider than the anus, it is female. The vent is the hole closes to the anal fin.

You can tell somewhat by personality behavoir, but venting is the only 100% way to be certain.

In order to determine if the fish are all Ilangi or not, a picture is going to be needed. Can you post one?

Thanks,

Geoff


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2008)

They have grown quite a bit since I got them and I am rigorous with feeding and water changes. The question was whether it is normal with Ilangis to have such a variation in color and markings for fish that are less than one year old.


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## geoff_tropheus (Feb 13, 2003)

Can you post a pic?


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2008)

Can't seem to be able to...


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

It's possible you have different varaints. I saw some variations in markings and colour as adults, but not as you describe in young ilangi. You may a couple of strays in your group. Please post pics if you can.


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## geoff_tropheus (Feb 13, 2003)

use this code : paste the URL here [img]

You need to upload pics into photobucket.com(or similiar website) and then copy the URL.

Give that a try.

Geoff


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2008)

OK here goes...


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## geoff_tropheus (Feb 13, 2003)

I have never seen an Ilangi with a blue dorsal. The fish you have in there are really nice, the guys with the light blue dorsal and solid yellow body is Kala Island, really nice fish by the way.

http://www.cichlidnewsmagazine.com/issu ... es/35d.jpg









The guys with the red dorsals and yellow in the body, I'd say definately look Ilangi.

The other guys with no yellow in the body, but with red/orange dorsals, too early to tell if they were not Ilangi. They are Moorii definately, from the southern part of the lake.

You might want to contact where you got the fish, and ask them what other Tropheus they had in their facility or store. When you get very small fry, it can be confusing, and almost to the point of grab bag fry.

Hope that helped..

Geoff


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2008)

I got these fish from a commercial breeder who sold them (and charged me) as Ilangi. Should I be upset about this? I am happy with the fish and have no intent to sell any offspring. OTOH is it too optimistic to hope that the fish with the blue dorsals will mature into Ilangis - as represented? Or is the blue coloring the expression of a recessive gene inherent to Ilangis? Or is the wild stock (unbeknownst to the breeder) contaminated with the genes of another variant?


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## geoff_tropheus (Feb 13, 2003)

Ilangi are some of the most popular, sought after Tropheus in the industry and tons of people have posted pics of them. I hate to say it, but I never seen any with blue dorsals such as the one you have posted.

I guess anything is possible. The breeder you purcahsed these fish came from his own wild Ilangi stock? or he acuired Ilangi fry and sold them to you?

Kala Island is a nice fish, but in your case where you were paying and expecting Ilangi, I'd be peaved and not buy again from that person for sure.

The small spit sized fry is almost impossible to tell what fish it is, and a honest mistake can happen anywhere in the chain.

Who knows...

Geoff


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2008)

Thank you for your replies...


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## Afishionado (Jun 6, 2006)

Not to start a tangent, but gee Geoff, 1cm per month? Up to what size?? Starting to think I'm underfeeding mine - they've grown at about half that rate...


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

I would take it up with the seller and ask him to make good on the deal. :thumb:


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2008)

I should, but the fish already have names. If I have to cull later I will select in favor of Ilangi coloration. Also, I am still hoping that everything will work out as I have confidence in the breeder....


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## RoBolton (Dec 16, 2006)

T. moorii "Kala Island" are not very common, I do not think I have ever seen any for sale before. As for T. moorii "Ilangi" I can find these almost every day of the week. Either way both are nice&#8230;..


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## RayQ (Sep 26, 2007)

That is very good of you to have that much confidence. IMO, you should still contact the seller and attempt to confirm the variant/origin of the blue dorsal specimens - if there is even the slightest chance that they are not Ilangi, that way, anyone that may come to "maintain" these fish will know what exactly what they are getting into.

Just my $0.02.

Ray


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## parrdog (Apr 29, 2004)

I can't see any reason how the blue dorsalled individuals could be Ilangi. I'd be asking for an explanation and some compensation.

Good luck,
Jamie.

PS Your tank scape looks really, really good .


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## IrkedCitizen (Apr 26, 2007)

Am I missing something? From the picture they posted where are the fish with the "blue dorsals?"

I say they are still too small to tell what they are exactly. If they are Kala Island and if they are so rare then why would the breeder sell them as Ilangi and not Kala Island? I'm sure Kala Island being so "rare" and all could fetch a premium like Ilangi. Time will tell as they are still small and not fully colored. When they are adults the true color of the fish will be seen and then we can pass judgment on what they might be if they are not in fact Ilangi.


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## kilroy111 (Sep 25, 2006)

I could see only one with an obvious blue dorsal fin. I have never seen an ilangi fry with any blue in the dorsal whatsoever.


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 11, 2006)

I saw a few but most is not a definite.... I have had a decent amount of fry from my colony of ilangi's and have never seen anything outside the normal coloration of ilangi....all have red dorsals and yellow bodies.

I will have to agree with Geoff that those if grown out to be like the picture posted will be freaking awesome! Where can I find those!!!


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## geoff_tropheus (Feb 13, 2003)

The fish with the blue dorsal is in the middle of the shot on the far right hand side.

Kala Island is a beautiful fish. It was on the list from African Cichlids Aquaculture last year, but only available 8 fish and they were as expensive as Ilangi.

In the photo you only show one fish with blue dorsal, are there other ones in the aquarium?

If you give your fish a solid diet, frequent water changes, and available tank space, your Tropheus should be full sized in 12-14 Months for Males and about 18-20 Months for Females. The problem is, that in aquaria, tank space is always a problem, and most females are "starved" because they start spawning early due to the close quarters in aquariums.

After some of the monster Duboisi's, and Moops I saw this weekend on a Houston Tropheus Tank Tour, I am going to try to feed more higher protein "Fish Chow" type pellet to some of my own F1's and see how big I can get them. The guy was feeding them a extremely high protein pellet that Central Americans would be eating, and he had some monster 5.5 to 6.5" male and female Tropheus. I was shocked somewhat by the size, but more by the fact they were grown out like that in a 210 gallon with Petrochromis Trewavasae.

I am also thinking of trying that with my Mpimbwe, since acording to the Aqualog, the Mpimbwe is supposed to get 20cm. Weâ€™ll see...

Geoff


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## Afishionado (Jun 6, 2006)

Well, water quality & tank space don't seem to be issues in my case. Their diet has consisted of alternating days of "NLS in the AM, HBH Veggie 8 in the PM" one day then two meals of HBH Veggie 8 the next. I guess I'll transition them onto NLS for breakfast every day (and still veggie flakes for supper)... Tks,

PS: I would love to see those jumbo Trophs!


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## geoff_tropheus (Feb 13, 2003)

The next time I am on the North Side of Houston, I'll swing by and snap some shots and post them.


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 11, 2006)

Puppy chow!

I want to test that myself cause those were some monsters! I might pick up some cheap duboisi's or even try it with some of my Ilangi fry.


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## geoff_tropheus (Feb 13, 2003)

Ek,

I would hold back some on the Ilangi, because Alex did say that on the Moops the color was diminished. The higher protein may have some impact on color.

Maybee something could be added to counter that... :?


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 11, 2006)

Well, I figure I would still use the NLS and add the puppy chow along with their diet.


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## 76dragon (Feb 16, 2003)

Are u for real?? Puppy chow. Wow... What happened to only feeding spirulina or nls ??

Since we are on the food topic, what do you guys think about feeding Koi pellets to the T's once they are big enough to eat them?? Will it have too many fillers for them and cause bloat.

PN


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## geoff_tropheus (Feb 13, 2003)

Its not puppy chow for real. It is just nicknamned that by several people we know.

The pellet is a very high protein pellet that is sold in bulk and in a 1mm pellet size. The food is producing some really interesting results, for size, but not so good for color.

There are a lot of people feeding Koi Pellets to Petros and Tropheus now. In Japan, the most sought after fish is Koi, and the amount of research that goes into that is serious business.

I would not just feed any Koi Pellet, I would try Hikari Brand Pellets, but be very careful. Make sure you blend it in over time with whatever your feeding now, and be watchful of issues.

If your not having problems now with your fish, I would not switch foods. It is up to you though..its your fish.

Take care...

Geoff


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## NorthShore (Feb 3, 2006)

The idea of only feeding spirulina or NLS is not very widespread. Many hobbyists feed a shrimp mix formula and I've known hobbyists who fed their duboisi meat-based flake foods. And I think a lot of hobbyists use differnet foods but won't readily admit to it for fear of being flamed.

I recently heard the argument that fillers blow right through a tropheus' gut and in fact don't promote bloat at all. (I'll be waiting for your call, Neil. :lol: )

I'd be concerned about large pellets causing problems with blockage though. I don't believe food in itself causes bloat. I believe stress from aggression and/or poor water quality causes bloat.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

"I don't believe food in itself causes bloat. I believe stress from aggression and/or poor water quality causes bloat."

Guess that just about sums up what I think too.
Too many folk with very different ideas feeding Troph on different foods all being successful for diet to be that important.
Kept em for 10 years without problems back when I did not know they were special feeders on regular flake and food sticks (cichlid food sticks of all things!)
Another time bit stress and poor water, on the "right food" and they bloated for me.  
Bloat, mainly down to aggression and water quality (diet minor role if any). I.e. stress 
and as with many diseases LUCK.  I guess.


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 11, 2006)

With the Koi food I would look into a better brand then Hikari....the name escapes me but in Japan they feed something other then Hikari.

As for the bloat thing....I do not believe the bulk of it is caused by food either.


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## RayQ (Sep 26, 2007)

Things have sure changed in the past year and a half with regards to the feeding of Tropheus!

Ray


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 11, 2006)

The koi foods that die-hard Koi breeders/keepers are up there in quality!

In Japan the koi thing is not was most would think it is and certainly not your average koi that you find in LFS's or random ponds.


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## 24Tropheus (Jun 21, 2006)

I do not think anyone was doughting Koi foods quality it is that we have been lead to beileve that cerial fillers and wheat products in them might be linked with bloat in Tropheus. Wheat products and cerials are included in Koi foods for Koi for good reasons I think. In cold conditions you are suposed to switch foods I think.
But I dought it would be a problem to an animal (Tropheus) adapted to having indigestable plant matter pass through its gut but I do not know the true answer for captive Tropheus (Gut reduces in length by about 50% during the addaption to the rich foods (compared to their wild diet) we use).


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## geoff_tropheus (Feb 13, 2003)

I still think that if youâ€™re not careful when switching their foods, it can cause bloat. I think as long as you give them time to wean over, they will without an issue. If you just trial by fire them onto a new food, you likely to get burned.

Number 1 cause of bloat....STRESS caused by water conditions and transport.

Aggression they live with that everyday. I've seen some get hammered on for days that I have to rescue, then recover, and have no bloat. I dont think aggression is really as much of a factor to stress that leads to BLOAT. Yes aggression is stressful on the fish, but not any more than trying to dominate territory for breeding purpose. I think it is more of their nature to deal with bloat.

They are always more susceptible to bloat when you first get them, and until they get onboard with your water conditions and water change schedule. They also have to get adjusted to your food type and feeding habits. Once they get onboard with this, they quickly become bullet proof.

That's what I see..


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## RoBolton (Dec 16, 2006)

. Saki-Hikari™


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2008)

Here is a better picture of my blue dorsal "Ilangi"










Anybody have any ideas on what this fish is?


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## 76dragon (Feb 16, 2003)

Cyclesafe, how big are your fry. They already starting good coloration. I have some that are 2-2.5 inch and they aren't coloring up that much yet. I just caught some yesterday to put outside in the pond.

On the Koi food. I have access to the same Koi pellets that they use in Japan. I will try to feed them some once they get a little bigger. The pellets are probably 3mm in size.

Didn't know people experimented with food to Tropheus so much. Pretty interesting.

thanks for the great replies Geoff and Ek


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## eklikewhoa (Jul 11, 2006)

That guy is awesome looking!

I like the blue lips and blue speckles on it's cheek.


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## geoff_tropheus (Feb 13, 2003)

I dont think Kala Island has blue speckles on the cheek, but Murago does.

No telling what that fish is really, I can definately say not Ilangi. :lol:


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## lloyd (Aug 24, 2005)

cyclesafe: i get the distinct impression you want nothing but true ilangi in your tank. going back to the seller will accomplish little, IME. so....regardless how nice the blue dorsal fish is, you need to cull it from your tank, in order to achieve that original goal.
culling, is likely the only way to determine if your fish were mixed as a packing error, or if all/any can reproduce this blue 'quirk' in the next generation. the sooner you remove them, the more confident you can be with the proper description of your remaining colony. if any blue dorsals are born in the next generation, it pretty much makes your entire investment bogus. like geoff_tropheus says...there are NO blue dorsal ilangi. 
if their count is substantial, you might consider to tank the non-conforming separately, to see if they might reproduce themselves as same. that would also help to conclude the theory of two distinct variants mixed during packaging.


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## BrownBullhead (May 15, 2005)

IrkedCitizen said:


> Am I missing something? From the picture they posted where are the fish with the "blue dorsals?"


I was thinking the same thing when I looked at the image.


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## Xenomorph (Aug 6, 2007)

It's a beautiful looking Ilangi, if that's what it is. I'd just be patient and wait for it to colour up more.

As for the puppy chow :lol: ...come on people, stick with the NLS :thumb:


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## myjohnson (Dec 28, 2007)

"In June 1998, local fishermen collected about 300 adult individuals of T. moorii from several sites in the southern part of the lake, with the intention of exporting these colourful fishes for the aquarium trade. Owing to the fact that the fishing was carried out without concession, Zambian authorities refused export permits. Instead of returning the fishes to their original habitats, as instructed by the local authorities, the catch was released in a small harbour basin of not more than 200 m2 in size in front of the Fisheries Department in Mpulungu, Zambia (L. Mwape 1999, personal communication)."

Even WC are not safe!


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## myjohnson (Dec 28, 2007)

"unique opportunity to study the biological interactions between several colour morphs of the same cichlid species in their natural environment. *It also resembles a situation as it may have existed during previously reported major low water levels of Lake Tanganyika, which led to the admixis of several formerly isolated populations *(Sturmbauer 1998; Kornfield & Smith 2000; Sturmbauer et al. 2001)."

But even naturally there is mixing.....

I personally think your colony looks great! A lot better than most colonies. Let the haters hate. If you got WC and they are call ilangis then call them that.


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