# Tilapia zillii ??



## riley

Got these as tilapia zizlili a hile ago. Just starting to shpw some nice color and exhibiting breeding behavior. ( aggressive). The photos on them seem to be limited and mixed up with red belly tilapia rendalli. Anyone that has had them confirm for me please. They look more like thorachromis than a tilapia to me. Thank you.


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## BC in SK

riley said:


> They look more like thorachromis than a tilapia to me.]


No, your fish is most definitely Tilapia and of the Coptodon grouping with in the genus. Can not confirm it is T. zilli as opposed to T. redalli or T. tholloni, ect. Most definitely not Thorachromis ,which is a genus of Victorian-types. Had Tilapia zilli from 2005-2008 but purchased mine at 6"+.....so your fish really does not really match mine at any point in time, although they changed considerably as they grew larger. What is sort of odd about your fish is the lack of a white line coming off the bottom lip ....characteristic of all 3 species mentioned. According to Ethelwynn Trewavas, Tilapia zilli has the 2nd largest geographic range of any African cichlid(after Sarotherodon galilaeus)... so I would imagine there are many different regional variants with significant distinctions.


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## riley

I had a group of rendalli years ago ( from Cuba of all places) and they changed colors a lot with different colours according to their mood and their growth. I know they aren't rendalli but there are a lot of photos of rendalli under the wrong names. Think they are getting ready to breed and only around 5 inches. Guess they are what they are, just couldn't find a similar pic of them..


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## BC in SK

Tilapia guineensis is another possibility http://cichlidae.us/tilapia-guineensis/tilapia-guineensis-female/Markings on the tail fin also match. I think the lack of a white marking coming off the bottom lip indicates your fish is neither T. zilli nor T. rendalli nor T. tholloni.


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## riley

Definitely a more plausible match .Going to count the dorsal rays tomorrow and do a little more research. I didn't notice the black mark on the dorsal fin but will check larger ones I have. Looks like there might be some black showing. Possibly will be more visible in slightly larger ones I have. Versatile fish. I Split the group up due to aggression that resulted in some deaths. I have at least a dozen left and are doing well in 2 different types of tanks. I moved 6 into a malawi set-up and left 6 or more in the original tank which is more of riverine set-up with coarse gravel and a lot of driftwood. Both groups are doing well but the fish appear to be doing better in the initial tank. Not sure if it is the water conditions or what they were more used to. The fish apparently does well in brackish coastal waters and can cope with high salinity. Breed with a crazy amount of eggs as they get older but have high mortality on the fry. I have a feeling I'm going to end up with 1 male and females in each tank eventually unless I can devote more tanks to them. Both groups are in 6 footers so may get away with a couple of males. ++
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction..+


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## riley

I've had these guys for over a year and their growth has been slow. Don't think they are going to be anywhere near themax size listed( 10 inches). Thinking 6 to 7 inches max on what I presume are males. Brought out the lexicon and Axelrod lists a tilapia called redbreast from Lake Ejagham, Cameroon that looks close also. Couple of different species from that lake and the tilapia Bemini pic in the book is very close also. Never realized there were so many pretty dwarf tilapias.


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## Chester B

I can confirm that this fish is not Thoracochromis.


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## 24Tropheus

Only red bellied Tilapia I can find that does not always display the typical Tilapia dorsal spot as yours does not (or not much of one) is Tilapia tholloni.
Its hardly an Id just an observation.

All the best James


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## 24Tropheus

Well theres also bakossiorum and bythobates but do not think its those.
Sadly may Tilapia are miss Ided so asking others if it looks like thiers may not be the best plan. :wink:


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## 24Tropheus

Mind you who knows what all Tilapia zillii might look like. They have got out and become pests in sooo many places from breeding for food.
Slightly suprised they would be legaly for sale in Toronto.
But there again laws in the states are not my strong point.

All the best James


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## BC in SK

24Tropheus said:


> Mind you who knows what all Tilapia zillii might look like. They have got out and become pests in sooo many places from breeding for food.
> Slightly suprised they would be legaly for sale in Toronto.
> But there again laws in the states are not my strong point.


Where do I start here :lol:

Toronto is in Canada, not the "states". Tilapia zilli is NOT a significant aquacultured food fish (except for maybe a few places in Africa!); never has been! Were not talking talking about mouth brooding Oreochromis that are commonly aquacultured and sold as "Tilapia" in the food store; but rather a substrate spawner. Yes, Tilapia zilli has been used for vegetative control in some southern climates and has become feral. While Toronto has the same latitude as northern California, and has mild winters from my perspective.... it's still much too cold of a climate for a cichlid to winter.


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## 24Tropheus

BC in SK said:


> 24Tropheus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mind you who knows what all Tilapia zillii might look like. They have got out and become pests in sooo many places from breeding for food.
> Slightly suprised they would be legaly for sale in Toronto.
> But there again laws in the states are not my strong point.
> 
> 
> 
> Where do I start here :lol:
> 
> Toronto is in Canada, not the "states". Tilapia zilli is NOT a significant aquacultured food fish (except for maybe a few places in Africa!); never has been! Were not talking talking about mouth brooding Oreochromis that are commonly aquacultured and sold as "Tilapia" in the food store; but rather a substrate spawner. Yes, Tilapia zilli has been used for vegetative control in some southern climates and has become feral. While Toronto has the same latitude as northern California, and has mild winters from my perspective.... it's still much too cold of a climate for a cichlid to winter.
Click to expand...

I guess this article belongs in the bin then. http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factshee ... ciesID=485

Apart from the Toronto bit. Never knew or cared were that is.
Do you know where Brussels or Orange Free State is? Its kind of the same for me telling the difference between places in US and Canada.

All the best James


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## 24Tropheus

Rather interestingly a Tilapia cross has even got out and is breeding in UK waters. :wink:
Admitably it is still restricted to breeding in a warm Power Station run off (few miles of lake and river) but its quite quickly adapting to lower temperatures.


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## 24Tropheus

Apparently its a zillii cross that was being used in a local fish farm that got flooded in a simple one year in 10 downpoor of rain.


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## BC in SK

24Tropheus said:


> I guess this article belongs in the bin then. http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factshee ... ciesID=485


Why would you say that??? As mentioned though out the article, Tilapia zilli was deliberately stocked for vegetation control and may or may not be permanently established, as it is not very cold resistant.

It is not a significant aquacultured food fish. You will never see it at the grocery store or food market. No major production. In terms of aquacultured cichlids, even "exCichlasoma" urophthalmus is liklely much more significant.


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## BC in SK

24Tropheus said:


> Apparently its a zillii cross that was being used in a local fish farm that got flooded in a simple one year in 10 downpoor of rain.


A link?


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## BC in SK

24Tropheus said:


> Rather interestingly a Tilapia cross has even got out and is breeding in UK waters. :wink:
> Admitably it is still restricted to breeding in a warm Power Station run off (few miles of lake and river) but its quite quickly adapting to lower temperatures.


 So what, most of the UK has a VERY mild climate. Obviously if you are ignorant of the fact that Toronto is in Canada rather then the U.S.A., your probably just as ignorant about the type of climates in N.A. 
Your supsrised that Tilapia would be legally for sale in Toronto. Yes, Toronto has mild winters compared to just about all of Canada and even in comparison to a good part of northern U.S.A. But they still typically get some -20* C weather, or colder, most winters.....zero chance for any cichlid making it through the winter. No reasons to have laws against Tilapias, because there is zero chance of fish from the tropics making it in our waters.


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## riley

Went to 3 different videos on you tube of Tilapia tholloni and all 3 clips showed 3 different fish. Looks like other people as confused as me out there. Not planning on dumping them in any creeks around here. Just wanted to know what they are.. Thinking maybe the black spot will come out in the next couple of months on their dorsal as they arre just coming into their own. Thank you again.


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## 24Tropheus

I guess this as become nothing to do with the OPs post. Sorry about that. BC in SK I feel under attack. I would complain to the mods if it was not such a pethatic thing to do. I do not like being called ignorant. Yep 200 years ago we were at war with the US to save you from their invasion (or rather our own intersets in Canada). Even burnt down the US capital for throwing us out of Canada. Not in living memory.

If you want details of the Tilapia (zillii and hybrids) threat in the UK I suggest you contact the University of Liverpool where a few unfunded post graduates are/were doing some work in this (Isle of Man research centre (bizzarly the Marine section not the Fresh water fisheries and food section)). Funding was withdrawn as soon as it was found they were going to recommend Tilapia breeding be banned from the UK. Kind of think they were good folk who do not know how to play the game and I dought they are net savvy yet.

Yep Tilapia tholloni was only a guess riley far more likely I think to be a fish from the US (bred with whatever for whatever reason in ponds or lakes or tanks) and unidentifiable by the likes of me.

If you want identifiable Tilapia thhere is only one place to buy from and thats import em from Africa.

No idea what we are studdying in the UK could be a red belly Tilapia or any number of man made hybrids.

All the best James


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## BC in SK

Looking at this fish more and more, and what really stand out about it, is it's odd mouth and snout, with it's over-hanging top lip. The only Tilapia species I can find with such a mouth is Tilapia louka. Here's a pic showing the kind of mouth/snout it has:http://fishbase.mnhn.fr/photos/PicturesSummary.php?ID=8921&what=species
It is quite a variable species, based on the pictures on the internet....but it's mouth/snout is rather unique. Probably different regional variants and likely changes considerably with age, like many Tilapia species. Many pictures show a red belly, yellow spot on each scale, stripe through the eye on younger fish, black upper lip, and what is unusual amongst members of the coptodon sub-genus, a red or orange trim on the end of the dorsal and caudal fin.


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## BC in SK

I think some more pictures might be helpful. Pictures of various individuals that show male and female. And when they do breed, pics of their breeding dress, to compare, as the very few pics of some species are taken when the fish breed.

The fact that you have had them for over a year and you figure the males will max around 6-7".......does not fit T. zillii, T. rendalli, T. tholloni nor T. guineensis nor T. louka. Males of any of these species could easily be around the 10" size, a year after purchase.


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## 24Tropheus

Wouldn't it be great if it turned out to be one of the criticaly endangered Tilapia?
Tilapia bakossiorum, Tilapia bemini, Tilapia bythobathes, Tilapia deckerti, Tilapia flava, Tilapia guinasana, Tilapia gutturosa, Tilapia imbriferna, Tilapia kottae only endangered on that one, Tilapia snyderae, Tilapia spongotroktis or Tilapia thysi.?
You know I might be tempted to get them checked out on http://www.cichlidae.com/
with the extra photos requested.
Who knows they may be something worth keeping and breeding!?

All the best James


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## riley

I'll take some more pics Wednesday. Line through the eye, no red in the anal fin and pretty sure they are close to max.size at 6'' . The blotch may be on the dorsal but definitely isn't as visible as many species shown. They were 3'' to 4'' inches when I got them so must be some kind of dwarf tilapia. I'll keep looking too, thank you Mike.


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## riley

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## BC in SK

Well, Tilapia louka is still the closest that I can match it too. The red trim on the dorsal fin fits. The blue and yellow coloration on the body. The over hanging top lip. A red throat for females.
It's listed at a max size of 10"...... really not that large for a Tilapia species  (T. zilli, for example, is listed at 16" on some sites).

But I am really not too sure which species it is, so I think it would be best to post your pictures at cichladae.com and see what they think it is.http://www.cichlidae.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=10&sid=f76b905d54ba9abf1fb55c1ccf73d96a


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