# Nitrates are out of control!!!



## diperry (Nov 8, 2010)

*HELP!!!*

My 55gal tank has always been very healthy with 22 fish but one of my fish (down to 21 now) died completely out of the blue last night. I do water changes every 5-6 days and vaccum the gravel each time a little bit as well. Here are my stats:

Temp = 76 (usually up around 78 though - it's Michigan and the tank is in the basement living room so it gets much colder down there)
pH = 8.2
NH3/NH4+ = 1.0ppm
Nitrite = 0.0ppm
*Nitrate = >80ppm (my kit only goes this high on the color chart and mine was much darker!!!)*

I swapped out the carbon in both filters earlier this week and also swapped out one of the carbon filter bags but left the old one on the other one since I rotate through these every month.

I'm completely lost on what to do to bring down the Nitrates. Do I wait and check it tomorrow and do another 25-30% water change??? HELP!


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## clgkag (Mar 22, 2008)

50 or 60 percent changes every other day and check nitrates out of the tap.


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## duds (Apr 16, 2010)

Nitrate won't go down unless it's consumed by plants or you do water changes. Most people say to keep you 'trates below 20-25... in order to do that you would need to change out about 75% of your water.
On another note, the ammonia level in your tank should be 0 so a reading of 1 is pretty sketchy. Did you recently change out more than the carbon in your filter? I would hazard a guess that the bacteria converting ammonia to nitrite is insufficient for the bio-load in your tank. Are you savvy about the nitrogen cycle? the first bit of this article explains it.
One last thing, carbon in filters is usually used just for taking medication/discoloration etc. out of the water. It's probably just an extra expense for you right now.
Good luck with keeping the other 21 healthy! let us know if you have any more questions.


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## diperry (Nov 8, 2010)

Thanks for the advice! I've never had a tank get this out of control on me before in my life and I've had tanks from 5 gal up to 100 gal. I was just so confused on this nitrate level!

I am very on top of keeping the nitrogen cycle going. I will do a water change tonight and then tomorrow afternoon and keep on top of the levels over the next few days. I'm hoping that this will resolve quickly!

Duds, So are you saying I should just remove the carbon completely or just not worry about it as much as I have been? I have the carbon filters along with regular bio filters in the main filter so I guess I am probably giving it a double whammy huh?

Also, I don't have live plants - never could keep the dang things alive!!

Here's what my tank looks like - though most of the fish are hiding.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

First, you're not supposed to have ammonia - assuming this tank is completely cycled (running 2 months with fish) - you don't have enough media for the bacteria to stick too. Replace any carbon with more bio media if your filters can fit it.

Assumption 1: You're generating 20ppm Nitrate/week. (assume 3/day)
Assumption 2: You're at 100ppm.

*Tomorrow, do a 50% water change* (WC). That will put it at 50

On *Tuesday, do another 50% WC. * That will put it at 25+3+3 = 31

On *Thursday, do a 50% WC *again, you'll be at 15 + 3 + 3 = 21

Next *Saturday do a 50% WC* you'll be at 10+3+3 = 16

It's all about math really - finding out how much nitrate your occupants put out - then doing water changes to keep the nitrates down.

In the future if you're doing 20ppm a week (which seems high), you'll need to do more than 50% water change a week.

15+20=*35* / 2 = 17.5 + 20 = *37.5 */ 2 = 18.75 +20 = *38.75* / 2 = 19.25 + 20 = *40... *
You can see where this is going - up and up and up.


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## duds (Apr 16, 2010)

Glaneon said:


> Replace any carbon with more bio media if your filters can fit it.


 :thumb: Agreed


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## diperry (Nov 8, 2010)

Thanks you guys! I have my work cut out for me but I know my guys will be much happier!!!


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## DaveZ17 (Sep 14, 2009)

I didnt see anyone say how to fix the problem for good. You are overstocked and need to remove some of the fish. I would also reduce feeding to every other day.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

*gravel each time a little bit as well*

Just guessing, but that could be a big part of your problem.
Your gravel could be chock full of hidden organic material.
Uneaten food and fish waste.
I would suggest a Ã¢â‚¬Å"double whammyÃ¢â‚¬Â


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

DaveZ17 said:


> I didnt see anyone say how to fix the problem for good. You are overstocked and need to remove some of the fish. I would also reduce feeding to every other day.





Glaneon said:


> In the future if you're doing 20ppm a week (which seems high), you'll need to do more than 50% water change a week.


If he doesn't want to do that, then yes, reduce the bioload (22 in a 55 is a little much; I have 30-35 young in my 125). Reducing feeding to every other day will help, but if they're young fish, they can use the food.


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

I agree with losing the carbon. Get sponges or filter floss instead.

IME, the math isn't going to be quite so... linear.  :lol: As you stir up the gunk in substrate, more is going to be available to bacteria, so more nitrate will be produced. I would expect a 50% WC with a vigorous vacuum to only reduce nitrates a little bit.

It's going to take awhile to get nitrates below 20. While long term feeding will be a different story, it may be in the fish's best interest to severely limit feeding until nitrates are under control.

Things to expect while your tank is undergoing the changes- cloudy water, algal blooms, fish scratching. However, these things are not harmful as long as you have extra oxygenation.  Add an extra powerhead/bubbler to agitate the surface, or else the biological oxygen demand can suffocate your fish.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

True it may not be linear, but there's no other easy way to explain it (without a slide-rule, pie charts and an abacus) in terms that will easily stick


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## diperry (Nov 8, 2010)

Thanks for the advice and input Triscuit and Glaneon! I'm off to go do a 50% and a good vaccum so that will give them a good refresher and to add more filter without carbon.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

I would have to agree on removing the carbon and replacing it with some form of bio material. I like plastic potscrubbers, but sponge will also work. It doesn't really matter what it is. 
I'm not sure I agree that vacuuming the gravel will cause an increase in nitrate. All that mulm is already available to the bacteria as long as it is in the tank. The gravel layer in that tank also looks like it is fairly thin, so should be easy to clean. Regardless, if the nitrates are as high as they appear, than the maintenance schedule is out of line. That type of stocking is not out of line for a Malawi tank, provided the water is being changed often enough and and in sufficient quantity. that is the price you pay for heavy stocking, and isn't really a problem; your changing water anyway, so do a larger amount. I have no qualms about changing more than 50% regularly, or even more.


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## diperry (Nov 8, 2010)

Thanks BillD. I removed the carbon and left the filter bags with all the bacteria and added more filter sponges. As far as the number of fish, I had to increase the number a few months ago because there were not enough fish and way too much agression from my biggest guys. Most of my fish ar 1-2.5" at most and only 5 or 6 that are 3-4.5". I was well aware of the increase in work load when I added more. I assumed that every 5-6 days would be anough but now I'm realizing that I need to do water changes and vaccuming (yes I keep my gravel low so it is easier to clean) every 3-4 days. Lots of work but they seem happy so that makes me happy!


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## triscuit (May 6, 2005)

The mulm in the gravel (assuming that's where the nitrate sink is) is not in an optimal place for bacteria to consume it. Low oxygen, low flow rates- the bacteria we cultivate in our aquaria are typically aerobic and like their food a little more accessible to moving water. There's also a solubility issue- in the sediment, the dissolution of molecules is much slower. When you stir it up, both the bacteria and natural dissolution get a boost resulting in "fresh" nitrate production.

I've read too many posts about neglected tanks where it takes several successive water changes to begin to budge the nitrate, but that may or may not be the case here. opcorn:


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

^^ This is prolly the case with the nitrAtes remaining high even after WC's.

My wife used to breed Oranda's and these are very messy and delicate fish. Look at them crooked and they get sick. On occasion she would allow the trAtes to rise, life gets in the way some times, and we found that after doing WC's the trAtes would rise quickly such that the next day after a 50% WC the levels were right back to what they were. The fish get used to this dirty water and if you lower it too quickly, well we would find ourselves burying fish,... too big to flush.

The nitrAtes saturate the tank and leach back over time. Pretty much do daily 30% or so WC's while vaccing the gravel assertively and regular filter maintenance and you will be back on track. As another posted you might find yourself doing 3 or more WC's a week with your stock load and feeding habits.


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## DaveZ17 (Sep 14, 2009)

I still see it as a temporary fix. Those fish are not going to stay small and will outgrow the tank in the next year. I guess if you love waterchanges than thats fine but I would of had about half that many fish in a 55g. Im just old school and lazy huh.

Instead of packing all those fish in a small tank, get rid of the most aggressive fish and add some more rocks for hiding spaces. You wont have to worry about nitrates as much as youre bioload will match the tank.

As far as aggression goes there will always be a (top dog) and a pecking order in any aquarium. JMO

Dave


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

I guess you can keep goldfish if you don't want to deal with aggression... 
(even guppies can be aggressive)
Heck, you don't even need a heater then!


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## DaveZ17 (Sep 14, 2009)

So thats how we fix the problem by just adding more and more fish. These fish will only get bigger and meaner as they mature.


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## Glaneon (Sep 27, 2010)

It's easy for a beginner to get too many fish when they start cause they're all little. They may have plans to get a bigger tank, those plans may get changed, what-not. Sometimes they have babies and they grow up and the moral dilemma makes the choice too hard.

There's always reasons; usually naivity, sometimes budget, etc. The OP just wants to know how to handle nitrates currently.

I aggree with your assessment (too many fish in that size tank), a larger tank is a good answer - but it brings a whole new set of issues (new heater, more substrate, larger/additional filtration).

"Would have had half that many fish" doesn't really help the OP unless he's willing to get rid of 1/3 of his fish. I know I wouldn't be.

[edit] The OP did state he added more fish to reduce aggression - something that has been recommended on these forums. What the OP may have forgotten is other methods/options/limits. People are human.. funny that.


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## DaveZ17 (Sep 14, 2009)

Well said, sorry for the attitude. Its just funny that no one asked what type of fish he has together. There are different combinations that work better than others.


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## noddy (Nov 20, 2006)

What type of filters do you have and when was the last time you cleaned them out (not talking about the carbon) ? I battle with nitrates constantly (heavily stocked Tropheus tanks) and the only way to win, is with massive water changes and regular filter maintenance.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

noddy raises a good point about filter maintenance. Cannister filters make very good storage containers for solid materials. Removing solids before they can be broken down will result in lower nitrate levels overall. Cannister owners tend to let the filters go for rather long intervals between cleanings. Any solid material in the filter must be considered still in the tank. So, if the solid material is in the gravel or in the filter, it is pretty much the same.


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## MONEYCYCLE (Oct 7, 2010)

For all you guys battling your nitrates There is an answer. Sulfur denitrator. Buy it, bulid your own. How ever you like but it does work. Just dont forget about your maint just because your nitrate reading is 0. I have ran them for years. I built an ran them when you had to buy the sulfur from the drugstore and break it up yourself. If cost is an issue building your own is a very in expensive rout to take. I would behappy to answer any questions about this.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

MONEYCYCLE said:


> For all you guys battling your nitrates There is an answer. Sulfur denitrator. Buy it, bulid your own. How ever you like but it does work. Just dont forget about your maint just because your nitrate reading is 0. I have ran them for years. I built an ran them when you had to buy the sulfur from the drugstore and break it up yourself. If cost is an issue building your own is a very in expensive rout to take. I would behappy to answer any questions about this.


Would like to hear about your experience.
How about you start a new thread in the DIY, if you would.


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## MONEYCYCLE (Oct 7, 2010)

Ok I will post one. Hope I can help with some of these overstocked tanks. Seems to be everyones first attempt to controll aggression and after they grow up who would want to give up any fish you have had for a few years. Not me.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

*overstocked tanks. Seems to be everyones first attempt to controll aggression*

:lol: :lol: 
True that..think just wanting more fish comes in there as well.

*Ok I will post one.*
Thanks, I`ll be looking forward to it.


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## BillD (May 17, 2005)

Plenums can also be used for ne-nitrating. This is done by creating an anoxic cavity beneath the gravel (2 layers of eggcrate thick). Once set up it is totally maintenance free. It will not work well in a tank of diggers, as the depth of the gravel as well as the size of the grains must fall in a specific range to allow water to move slowly from the tank to the plenum, while it seeks equilibrium. Plenums have been used on salt water tanks for many years.


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## MONEYCYCLE (Oct 7, 2010)

Yes plenums are effective but more on the saltwaterside and are limited to the amount of nitrate they can remove and if the need arises to increase its ability this can be difficult to acheive but none the less a sucsesfull way of controlling nitrates. Like you said it would be tough in a diggers tank. A coil denitrator has also been very sucsesfull in saltwater but tough in freshwater you can make it work in freshwater depending how much patience you have.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

MoneyCycle do you have any experience or input on the aquaripure denitrAter?

I have looked at these in the past and just never got around to trying one out. It seems whenever I let my trAtes go lower than 5 ppm i get BGA in the refugium, do you have a problem with this and zero nitrAtes?.

This unit uses vodka or sugar as an additional source for the bacteria to thrive on instead of sulphur.


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## MONEYCYCLE (Oct 7, 2010)

I am assuming your talking about aqauripure coil denitrator and yes I do have experince with them. I have one setting on my front porch. I like it better there. It worked well in my salt water tank but not as good in my freshwater tank. Alot of constant tweaking to keep it putting out low or no nitrates. As far as algea goes you will always have it in some form better in the refugium than in the main tank, this growing here will help keep it from your main tank. as far as 0 nitrates affecting it yes it will especially if they are climbing and falling the fluctuation causes imbalance and algea will always take advantage of any fluctuation. I do see a outbreak of brown algea when water is first brought to 0 but goes away after a while. Another imbalance that needs to level out. Much like when you first start to use phoshate controll. Phoshate removers remove phosphate faster than silicates and the imbalance ther causes brown algea. I always hope to see green algea since we have to have some this is the one to have.


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

MONEYCYCLE said:


> yes I do have experince with them. I have one setting on my front porch. I like it better there.


Thanx for the heads up, :thumb: , though I liked the idea of using sugar or vodka better than adding sulphur to our tanks I might look into building a DIY algae scrubber.


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## MONEYCYCLE (Oct 7, 2010)

This could be a very good plan as well if you have space to build one big enough. I have seen tanks that have not had a water change in years using algae scrubbers. As far as adding sugar or vodka the problem is the oxygen is used rapidly when this is added and returns just as rapidly. unless you could set up a dosing system for this type of denitrator it can be very dangerouse for your livestock but again if monitored ALOT it can be sucsessfull. As much as I like taking care of my tanks this was a little much for me.


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