# Tank Maintenance Question



## OKCIS (Mar 28, 2008)

I must make a disclaimer before i say this. I by no means am saying people have no clue what they are talking about or anything like that this is just something im wondering.

When i first got into this hobby i was hardcore i checked my water almost daily, weekly water changes, monthly filter changes etc. I still enjoy my fish but my enthusiasm for maintenance is all but dead. I have 3 tanks in which i almost never change the filters, I did a water change in one of them last night and it was the first water change in over 8 months. I cant even tell you where my testing chemicals are at much less the last time i changed them.

With that said all of my fish are in perfect health, water is crystal clear and there is absolutely 0 smell coming from my tanks. All 3 have the same basic setup Sand substrate with Fake wood and Rocks all through them. Fish are all cichlids different varieties but nothing really crazy. Mostly Yellow Labs, Dems, etc.... My pleco in my 180g tank is even up to about 2ft long hes gigantic.

Have my fish just become badasses and can take anything or is there something to what i do with the tanks aka nothing. I have a friend that keeps oscars and he is the same as me the only fresh water they get is when he needs to add to it because of evaporation. he said before that when he was gung ho about water changes his oscars always got hole in the head (no clue what it is thats what he called it) he said when he quit it went away and has never had it since.

I guess really im just curious since i do almost everything the exact opposite of what everyone preaches on here why is my tank literally in pretty much perfect condition. I always get compliments on the colors of my fish and how nice my tanks are people even ask how i got rid of the nasty water smell.

I run a mixture of Canister filters and Penguin bio-wheel filters. I do admit my bio wheel filters tend to go out alot because of sand in them if i cleaned them more often i probably wouldn't have that problem but i just leave everything alone.

Again im not in any way saying what people say on here is wrong im just curious if maybe other people have had the amount of success i have had by doing absolutely nothing with there tanks.


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## 12 Volt Man (Sep 22, 2008)

what you have happening is called old tank syndrome.

the nitrates slowly keep rising

the pH slowly keeps dropping (both from waste accumulation)

at this point, the levels have slowly been rising and your fish are used to it.

however, eventually, the levels will hit a critical value and you will begin to lose fish.

also, and I have seen this happen many times, everything seems okay until you go and buy a new fish from the store.

you put the new fish in and it usually won't make the first 48 hours.

why? the drastic difference in nitrate and pH level.

everything seems fine until you add a fish not used to this gradual increase in waste levels.

used to see that all the time with customers.

tank is clear, fish seem fine, new fish died right away.

test the water, and its obvious. nitrates super high, pH often low.

regular water changes eliminates old tank syndrome and makes it safe for your fish and any new fish you decide to add.

hope this helps.


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## smellsfishy1 (May 29, 2008)

I hope you don't curse yourself by posting this but realistically what you are doing(or not doing) is asking for trouble.
Not only that but you are in the minority because most that say their tanks are trouble free and disease free have good cleaning/water change routines.
Disease can creep up and whole tanks can get wiped out really fast and I hope this doesn't happen to you but it can.

It is true, fish are resilient and can handle a lot but that doesn't make it ok even if they appear healthy and grow, this only displays toughness but everything reaches a tipping point.
I would also like to see some photos of your tank and fishes if you don't mind doing so.
Something to think about, could you imagine what they wold look like if you kept up on the tank? :fish:

P.S. When you openly admitt that your tank care is poor, does it make you want to change or reconsider keeping fish?( being serious not sarcastic or mean)


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## OKCIS (Mar 28, 2008)

Nope doesnt make me reconsider it at all cause from what i see in fish color and growth they are in way better shape then when i used to constantly do water changes. 
I have friends that keep the same types of fish i do and all of them get mad everytime they look at my tanks because their fish dont have the color that mine do.

Thats why im asking it seems odd to me that i do the opposite of what your supposed to do and my fish are doing better then when i followed the book to the tee... Trust me it makes no sense to me.

As far as adding new fish i never add new fish because i dont trust any of the stores locally to me. There is still one i havent checked out yet but when i was following the book i always had problems with new fish bringing disease into the tank regardless of where i bought them. The last 4 i added were probably 8 months ago when i changed the water last and had no problems with them. Could have been in part because i changed the water that day.

Like i said before also i have a friend that used to have serious issues with his Oscars and he stopped doing water changes and has no more issues. Part of me has to wonder if there isnt something with it.

I do overfilter i usually run 15 times over like on my sons tank a 38g bowfront im running 600gph through the tank. Maybe that helps with it. The Old tank syndrome does make sense to me though.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

How can you really say the fish are healthy... people with cancer often "look healthy"... although they are being eaten alive by their disease...

If a fish has the natural potenital to live 10 years, but only survives 4 years... was it really all that healthy?

Fish in your system, althuogh they may appear healthy right now, they will not have the longevity that they would in a cleaner system.

Also, as 12Volt explained, with PH crashing, if you were to decide to improve your standards, a big water change could result in a PH swing that could kill your fish. This common mistake has made a lot of people (mistakenly) believe that water changes are dangerous.


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

Sorry you reached "burn out" on your tanks so fast.. 
I can relate to that in other areas in my life. 
I`m not going to condemn you for your actions..or would that be lack of action in the routine maintenance of your tanks. 
I will say it`s a shame your pets have to suffer for your "burn out". 
12 volt man covered what`s happening pretty well.


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## twiggy (Apr 5, 2007)

Your fish will be used to the water because the change has happened slowly.

As others say it seems to be only a matter of time until the water goes to far.

You did pick-up on an interesting point though, which when I think it through it seems to make sense and that is about the fish illness.

If the water is kept perfect all the time and a disease is entered into the tank the fish will have a low immune system and find it hard to fight off any disease, where if they are kept in less than perfect conditions it will allow their immune system to build up and fight off disease.

Just a thought I could be talking aload of bubbles though.


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## steelers fan (Jun 26, 2009)

all this passive-aggresiveness makes me giggle a little. "sorry to hear...hope i dont bring bad karma...a-hole!!! :lol: the bottom line is textbook maintainence is based on the perfect scenerio and you may not be able to be strict and follow the guidlines to the letter every effort should be made to follow as closely as you can just simply because these recomendations were tried and tested long before you or thought about caring for fish...the key word being caring. we dont buy pets simply to look at them. at least i dont, i buy pets to care for them and give them the longest best life possible...self righteous? maybe...but i do make a good point huh? :wink:


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## steelers fan (Jun 26, 2009)

all this passive-aggresiveness makes me giggle a little. "sorry to hear...hope i dont bring bad karma...a-hole!!! the bottom line is textbook maintainence is based on the perfect scenerio and you may not be able to be strict and follow the guidlines to the letter*. but* every effort should be made to follow as closely as you can just simply because these recomendations were tried and tested long before you or*i* thought about caring for fish...the key word being caring. we dont buy pets simply to look at them. at least i dont, i buy pets to care for them and give them the longest best life possible...self righteous? maybe...but i do make a good point huh?

sorry just some spelling and punctuation fixes :thumb: [/quote]


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## steelers fan (Jun 26, 2009)

sorry one more thought...you should at least clean and rinse out your mechanical media. how would you like to go for a swim in a pool stained with a poop teabag?


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## OKCIS (Mar 28, 2008)

Guess i shouldnt have posted this here i feel like im getting beat down by PETA. My fish are healthy you can tell simply by color they wouldnt be as strong and as bright as they are if they were stressed and feeling bad. 
I tested my tank water last night after going to walmart on a midnight run and picked up a kit. My water is perfect.

Truthfully im starting to think your book is flawed. Weekly water changes etc its not needed. Perfect water, Clear water, Bright colored extremely active fish...... And im doing it wrong.

Not to sound like a jerk either but they are fish. I fillet 20-30 of them a weekend is there something that makes a Cichlid more special then a bass or a catfish? I take care of my "pets" also you dont know me so piss off with those accusations.

Simple fact is *** found my own system and its producing better and healthier fish then you. Deal with it. Sorry to have end this off sounding like a jerk but its classic i know better then you and i now know you now and can make false accusations.


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## Rhinox (Sep 10, 2009)

OKCIS said:


> I tested my tank water last night after going to walmart on a midnight run and picked up a kit. My water is perfect.


 Mind sharing what you measured? Just curious as to what your idea of "perfect" is.

I suppose if you have a ton of algea or plants, you could possibly keep the nitrates in check.

Crushed coral or limestone as a substrate? that might keep your pH buffered.

When going through my fishless cycle, my pH dropped from 7.6 to slightly acidic over the course of just one month. My nitrates also measured over 250 in the same time frame. I didn't do any water changes during that time. So if you don't have plants for nitrates and something to naturally buffer, your nitrates would probably be in the 1000s, and your pH would definately be acidic - far from perfect conditions.

Even if all your measured parameters were "perfect", it is said there are other things that build up in the water that we don't measure for, that can eventually build up enough to harm fish. We don't measure for them because we just assume they get removed with the regular water changes. I don't have any proof other than what I've heard others saying though.



OKCIS said:


> I must make a disclaimer before i say this. I by no means am saying people have no clue what they are talking about or anything like that this is just something im wondering.


...


OKCIS said:


> Truthfully im starting to think your book is flawed. Weekly water changes etc its not needed. Perfect water, Clear water, Bright colored extremely active fish...... And im doing it wrong.
> ...
> Simple fact is I've found my own system and its producing better and healthier fish then you. Deal with it. Sorry to have end this off sounding like a jerk but its classic i know better then you and i now know you now and can make false accusations.


 :roll:

Anyways, maybe your fish are perfectly healthy, or have adapted to live just fine in the conditions they're living in. Congratulations. But I would bet that they would be healthier with better maintenance. Or at least, they wouldn't be any worse off. To say that your "method" (which is nothing but laziness IMO) provides better and healthier fish is just plain BS.

I know lots of smokers. A lot go through life without a single health problem related to their smoking. Some get cancer and die though. All of them would be better off health wise without the smoking though. You don't see any smokers running a marathon.

And I really don't get the attitude. You came here and stated your case. If your method is really better, then just walk away laughing at all us ignorant fools doing water changes every week. You tried to tell us we were wasting our time changing our water and cleaning our filters. :roll: Really, if regular maintance is too much work and takes too much time, then why even keep fish? For me, I like doing my water changes and maintenance. It gives me something to do. Thats why its a hobby, not just a piece of furniture in my living room. If I'm doing more than required, so be it. I don't mind. I think you'll find that will be the mindset for everyone who views fishkeeping as a hobby and not just a novelty. So, unless you can provide proof or even some remote evidence that weekly water changes and filter maintentance is bad for my fish, or any evidence at all that no water changes are better, well then thanks for the post but I think I'll just keep doing what i'm doing and you can keep doing what you're doing. :thumb:


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## KaiserSousay (Nov 2, 2008)

> Guess i shouldnt have posted this here i feel like im getting beat down by PETA


What did you expect, applause :lol: 
I think you came looking for a fight, didn`t get one..
So you thought you wolud try again.

With that said..I`m done with this thread.


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## Dj823cichild (Mar 30, 2009)

No comment!


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## fox (Jun 11, 2009)

OKCIS said:


> >snip<
> Simple fact is I've found my own system and its producing better and healthier fish then you.
> >snip<


You are entitled to your own opinions not your own facts. I call BS ... and thats a fact. :fish: opcorn:


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## bertolli (Aug 18, 2009)

I just wanted to add my 2 cents even though it is probably irrelevant and being a pacifist I ofcourse claim neutrality in this argument.
I have had 6 tetras and a platy living in a 29g for close to two years now with just some half dead bamboo plant floating at the top and topping off the water as it evaporates without even putting conditioner in the water. I only have a heater and an airstone in the tank... there is no filtration and the water stays crystal clear.
These fish are amazing to me because they do look and act completely healthy.
I ofcourse do regular water changes on my cichlid tanks but these fish boggle my mind.


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

OKCIS said:


> Not to sound like a jerk either but they are fish. I fillet 20-30 of them a weekend is there something that makes a Cichlid more special then a bass or a catfish? I take care of my "pets" also you dont know me so piss off with those accusations.
> 
> Simple fact is I've found my own system and its producing better and healthier fish then you. Deal with it. Sorry to have end this off sounding like a jerk but its classic i know better then you and i now know you now and can make false accusations.


Are you trying to flatter us... you say the sweetest things *hugs*

From what I can see we only "accused" you of doing exactly what you told us you were doing in the first post...

I'm not sure what you expected...

Now that you suddenly reject the information you previously said makes sense, and your water is magically "perfect" you aughta rewrite the book!


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## twiggy (Apr 5, 2007)

> Not to sound like a jerk either but they are fish. I fillet 20-30 of them a weekend is there something that makes a Cichlid more special then a bass or a catfish? I take care of my "pets" also you dont know me so piss off with those accusations.
> 
> Simple fact is I've found my own system and its producing better and healthier fish then you. Deal with it. Sorry to have end this off sounding like a jerk but its classic i know better then you and i now know you now and can make false accusations.


Well you did sound like a jerk so well done.

I love that last line as well, my system is working, I have better fish than you, I have healtheir fish than you. Then *HE* says 'classic i know better then you' after telling *US* how much better his system and fish are.

Grade A muppet.


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## MCKP (Aug 17, 2009)

I may skip a week on my water changes, or possibly do less water amount in my changes but I try to stay pretty much on top of it... With the ****(literally) I pull out of the tanks during my siphoning, I would not want my fish to have to live in that....even if they CAN.....

You know, I posted this in a different area too but it also seems to fit here.... Bettas CAN live in those tiny little cups, and alot have GORGEOUS colors and seem healthy but do you really think they are, or do you think they are happy?? If you have ever seen a betta swimming in a 20 gallon tank you would know that answer....

Just because your fish CAN live like that, doesn't mean they should. My dogs can live fine in my backyard an I can pooper scoop once a year... sure they would be fine but it is not healthy and it is not nice for them..... they are much happier when they don't have to lay in ****, and I like it better when they don't walk into my house with it on their paws.

My tanks don't stink... My fish have gorgeous colors, all are healthy, and so saying you have better fish than us(meaning people who do regular water changes) I think was a very arrogant thing to say......

If you don't mind, I would like to see you 'better than mine' fish?? If you can't back it up with pictures, and pics of the whole tank too please.... than I don't think you should say anything about having better looking, and healthier(can't prove that in pics though) fish.....


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## steelers fan (Jun 26, 2009)

i didnt meam to sound like a dick. i was only stating there mere fact that these methods have been tested many years before you or i decided to get into this...dont you agree? also dont you agree that you are filtering poop with poop at this point? they are just fish your right...but a dog is just a dog etc. i dont know you and you may a good person i was only commenting on something you were asking for a comment on. along the same line shouldnt your dog get fresh water every time you feed him or should his water bowl be filled and and then refilled when its empty? i would also like to see some pictures if you could. again im not saying your an a-hole only that your maintainence habits may be lacking


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## 007Rick (Jul 29, 2007)

he must have board burn out now!!! :lol:


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## danielratti (Feb 17, 2008)

This one time I went almost a month and a half with out a water change... My julies and comps died once i changed the water, I was upset with myself over it since I was so busy...


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## steelers fan (Jun 26, 2009)

OK pictures please...dont go away mad


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## Toby_H (Apr 15, 2005)

danielratti said:


> This one time I went almost a month and a half with out a water change... My julies and comps died once i changed the water, I was upset with myself over it since I was so busy...


PH probably crashed and the water change swung it back up to quickly... Which you've probably figured out by now.

That is the very experience that makes a lot of people think that water changes are dangerous...

But on the flip side, if you don't change the water and lower the nitrates the fish will apparently "die of old age" at about 1/3 to 1/2 their natural potential... It's amazing how many people think their Cichlids are supposed to die in 2~3 years when they have the true potential to live 9~12...


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## danielratti (Feb 17, 2008)

It was a pretty expensive mistake too, the comps were F1 and where I live I don't see a lot of tangs I'm still pretty bummed about it. 
I just figured I did too big of a water change at once and wasn't thinking about the PH going all nutty on me.


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## aspen (Jun 15, 2004)

many tropical fish are designed to handle months with no water changes, when they end up in a pond that turns into a shallow pool cut off from the main river till the next rainy season. but they are also designed not to grow out like this, that the one who lasts the longest will be there to continue the species. the one who maintains and not grow will be the one who out-lasts everyone else.

i disagree with your ideas because i like to see my fish grow in nice colours and breed. i have always had better luck changing more water, but i've aged my water since i saw what my raw tapwater does to my fish. maybe your raw tapwater has dissolved gasses which harm the fish, like mine does?

i have always tried to solve any health issues with large water changes and it has almost always made things better. i always have a 65 full of water ready for changes. i use seachem prime, which i consider to be a very good water conditioner.

rick


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## Dj823cichild (Mar 30, 2009)

Looks like we scared off the original poster :lol: :lol:


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## danielratti (Feb 17, 2008)

He is probably just out filleting some fish to prove us wrong.


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## steelers fan (Jun 26, 2009)

stop :lol: . welcome him back...id like to see some pics...just curious now.


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## iCichlid (Sep 21, 2009)

I have a confession...

Before I got into Cichlids, I had a Silver Dollar. His name was Pancake. He lived for a little over 11 years. He lived in a 30 gallon tank. HOB Bio-Wheel Filters (went thru 3 or 4 of them).

I wasn't really educated on how to care for a fish, not like I am now. I'd do a water change every 6 or 7 months. When I say water change, I mean 100% tank break down, washing out the tank in the tub, and either rinsing the X out of the gravel or just buying new.

He survived about 5 moves in the 11 years. Each time, just dumped into the tank with water out of the tap (note: water from Philadelphia isn't the best!). I treated the water with Stress Coat and Stress Zyme.

One day, I noticed his eyes starting to stick out... Next thing I knew he blew up like a balloon!

At this point, I knew something was wrong and wasn't sure what to do. So I called my vet (I have a cat and dog too). I asked my vet and of course they didn't treat fish.

I did a full water change and cut back his feeding, and he got worse... So I thought since he was old he had fishy cancer or something. I called the vet and asked if they knew how to euthanize a fish, and they offered to give him "the shot". Well, I doubted he's survive the trip to the vet so I began to search for the most humane way of ending his suffering.

I found a lot of articles how vets use clove oil as an anesthesia for fish. From there you had a few options, which i won't go into. I was able to find some clove oil and it did the trick, he went right to sleep without a fight. To seal the deal, it said to use a cheap vodka. Well, I would never serve cheap vodka to my guests let alone my pets. So pancake went to the big fish bowl in the sky in style, grey goose on the rocks!

Since then i've done a lot (perhaps too much reading) on fish care. And now i'm back in the hobby with my Cichlids. I think I feel guilty for making Pancake endure such terrible water conditions. Proof of that is my filter system. On my 55 Gallon tank, I'm now running a Rena xP4 and a Fluval FX5. Water changes are 15-20% weekly. Water stats are monitored several times a week and they get lots of love and attention (who knew they loved chasing a laser pointer!)

I hope by sharing this story, I didn't anger any of my new cichlid buddies. It was truly a learning experience. I now know the importance of proper water maintenance. Granted his water always appeared clean, and he appeared happy and healthy, clearly he wasn't.

Below are some photos of Pancake when he was healthy and when he got sick...

*Healthy:*

















*Sick*









*My Cichlids* (before the FX5 was installed)


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## Dj823cichild (Mar 30, 2009)

No Icichlid you didn't anger anyone at least not me. See you did the right thing you Learned from the expierence and made yourself a better fish hobby expert! You took the time to gain knowledge and power to excel in this fish keeping field and for that I say great job! Sorry about Pancake though, I'm sure a lot of us had the same beginning start as you did, including myself! I started off with a 10 gallon 3 years ago with tiger barbs, I knew nothing about fish keeping. I knew it was always a dream of mine to do one day so I bought a 10 gallon tank and fish. But since then I've learned so much through the help of asking questions at my LFS and the power and Knowledge of this Great Forum! **** back then I didn't know anything about water changes, water tests I just let the FS do all the work. But now I know it's your job and responsibilty to maintain your tank, WC's, and Water tests weekly. I would like to say Ty again to all those that have helped me and in the same token to those in the future. I'm excelling myself and I couldn't be happier! :thumb: :dancing: :fish:


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